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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Feb 27, 2010 - 11:01am PT
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Fructose-
I did listen to the videos you recommended on the previous page and found the psychiatrist's discussion of the characteristics of the human brain and its relationship to primate evolution to be very interesting. I could even see how it could apply to very primitive forms of theology. However, I thought that was all his talk really did very well.
Personally, I had problems with him using a graduate school level physiology and psychology on the audience one minute and then discussing religion in its most primitive and literalist level the next. If he had compared Aristotle and Thomas Acquinas to the physiology and psychology of the brain then it would have been an equivalent discussion. I even had the impression that maybe his level of religious and spiritual understanding only went to the primitive level?!
Then as his talk proceeded it became obvious that his real intention was to attack the creationists. I understand how their extreme views and aggressiveness in pushing their agenda have now provoked the opposite reaction. And I will bethe first to protest changing the science curriculum and the teaching of evolution. However, I personally do not find cultish, aggressive atheists to be any more attractive than cultish aggressive religionists.
I used to think it ridiculous that Atheists Inc. is a tax exempt religious organization, but after hearing the atheists preach on that and related websites, I think in fact it is another form of religion. In any case this new brand of atheism is something quite different than the quiet, skeptical, ironic atheists I have known all my life. Thus it seems, we now have different sects of atheists. And this is progress??
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Feb 27, 2010 - 11:08am PT
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Jan,
The one thing I also find intersting is that one of the above articles mentions that the site was deliberately and purposefully buried.
My questions: by Whom? When? And Why?
Usually when you bury something purposefully you want to hide it and protect it. It is also very possible you want to hide it so others will never know of its existance.
Hhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmm. This could be evidence of a very long ago (thousands of years) conspiracy. Amazing it was found. Pretty exciting.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 27, 2010 - 11:11am PT
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Jan- Well, what more can one say? I don't know, maybe just something in general terms.
The history of humanity is characterized by movements. These movements necessarily have a center and edges or fringes. The fringes in turn can be characterized as rearward fringe, backward fringe, lunatic fringe, crackerjack (forward) fringe, etc..
In my opinion, the Dennetts, Dawkins, Thomsons, Harrises, Sagans, Attenboroughs, Porcos et al of the world are crackerjacks (of the crackerjack fringe) and I'm proud to identify with this group.
"I could even see how it could apply to very primitive forms of theology." It's up to you to see that "modern" theology is "primitive" theology aggrandized, hypertrophied, institutionalized, dressed-up.
Happy trails. Kudos to you for your world travels. At an age and in a time when it was very "crackerjack" fringe. Good on ya.
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jstan
climber
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Feb 27, 2010 - 11:33am PT
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I certainly can see how a person who thinks religion is everything will see religions everywhere. I consider myself a nonbeliever. I use a word other than atheist so I avoid all the meanings people may personally associate with that word. I used to think I could just go my way and let everyone do their thing. No more.
Here in the US our flight from reason has brought us to the point that politics itself has become religion and we are no longer operating our country. People aren't interested in learning what is actually happening and the US has regressed into a primitive society. In some ways we are now more backwards even than Iraq.
A person can say their religion requires them to destroy this country. This does not mean we all should quietly let it happen.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 27, 2010 - 11:41am PT
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Jstan- There are times when I don't get your posts. But this one I got. It's one I can say I identify with.
Thanks for posting.
P.S. You might consider stop calling yourself a nonbeliever, too. Like atheist, it also plays into the hands of the religious "conversational framers."
We are believers, we believe in a lot of things.
Great reads in regard to language and language traps (by way of framing the conversation) are Lakoff and Luntz. (Although Luntz has used the Luntz insights in partisan rivalry for predominantly Republicans. It's time Democrats picked up on this.)
Jerry Falwell was as much a "nonbeliever" as Carl Sagan. It's just a matter of context, contextual "framing".
Christians are nonbelievers. Nonbelievers in Amon-Re. Nonbelievers in Apollo and Artemis, Son and Daughter of Zeus. Nonbelievers in Muhammad as a prophet of Yahweh.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Feb 27, 2010 - 11:51am PT
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I wouldn't say I am a nonbeliever, but I will say that true believers whatever their convictions, scare me. And Fructose, your comments never strike me as those of a true believer, however much you admire some of those who are.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 27, 2010 - 11:57am PT
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Belief is used all the time outside religious or supernaturalistic context. I don't go a day without purposely using the word belief or believer in a variety of contexts.
I'm a "true believer" in modern day camming devices. I trust in these marvels of technology. (In other words, I have "faith" in them.) They have saved my life on more than one occasion. There's nothing scary about being a "true believer" in modern state of the art camming devices. And there is nothing inappropriate about using the term in this context-- when a belief is defined as a mental holding.
But "true believers" in an ancient theology (that advocates the edict Jehovah hates infidels and wants you to destroy them) do scare me.
Here's a weschrist link from yesterday that relates:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsj9GPd5YTg
And my response was: I don't know, that video link you posted is kinda scary to me, knowing the content behind the melody. (Somebody should close caption it in English. Just to know the full story.)
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Where are you Norton? Missin ya!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Feb 27, 2010 - 12:32pm PT
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Yes, I hope Norton's back is better now.
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MH2
climber
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Feb 27, 2010 - 02:34pm PT
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Overheard the other day on CBC Radio:
"The rock-climbing wall sounds cool, but I don't know about the religious stuff."
The speaker was identified as a Winnipeg young person.
There is no constitutional separation of church and state in Canada, and there is nothing wrong with Christian organizations attempting to convert non-believers, but there is a division of opinion on whether government money should be used to support Christian organizations whose mission is clearly stated to include such conversion.
http://www.religiousrightalert.ca/2010/02/22/youth-for-christ-winnipeg-proselytizing-and-political-patronage/
The significance of the problem today may owe somewhat to shrinking funding for government agencies to provide services like youth centers, and other agencies being willing to step in.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 27, 2010 - 03:16pm PT
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Weschrist- It is astonishing that our modern world evolved out of that. Huh? So "astonishing" it turns some away and so "astonishing" it draws others in.
Which explains my lifelong involvement.
Whoops, better explain that. In other words, it's so "astonishing" it "drew me in" to study it all the more, to get to the bottom of it, to not overlook it or deny it. And then to rebuild, reformulate, as necessary on top of it. In the interest of better practices in the art of living.
(Ha! it didn't "draw me in" to practice it. The other interpretation. No stoning hos in my history.)
Excellent link on Job. The world IS changing. Brick by brick. The current age is truly blessed (by Cosmic Providence) to have youtube and internet video. (I just wish it could've come a generation sooner. But heck, that's the nature of the cultural evolutionary process so I try my best to suck it up and live with it.)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 27, 2010 - 07:03pm PT
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Gentlemen, just catching up on your conversations in this thread now.
I am weary from a lengthy battle over at the Republican's thread.
Every time I get the cattle bedded down there, a stray wonders loose.
If asked, I tell em right upfront that I am an "atheist".
I have zero "doubts" so am not agnostic.
Personally, I take a lifetime (since age 5) of comfort in my conviction.
I don't bring it up to get in anyone's face, and I respect even Gobee here
for his own conviction. I use him only as THE example of the polar opposite
of myself.
Anyway, not ashamed or "proud" of my atheism, but yes, one can get the
feeling that others can view you as some sort of leper or whatever.
I like reading your thoughts, especially as regards the sapien brain
and it's evolutionary history!
What a really smart group of people posting on this thread.
Ardi, Lucy, and Charles would have been very proud.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 27, 2010 - 10:04pm PT
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Welcome back, Norton.
You guys on the political thread ever bring up Thomas Friedman? I like Thomas Friedman. Read him regularly. Really like how he puts the blame on us citizens and not just the politicians. For not stepping up.
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"Yeah, it's a good idea: In lean times, the government (like family) needs to cut back.
What'd you say? It wants to cut programs in MY county? That would mean jobs.
That would be failure to grow. Better not. Where is my Rep? my Senators? They failed my county.
Throw the rascals out!"
EDIT (This isn't Friedman, this is me, imagining one of the predicaments our "mature" consumption-oriented democracy has us in.)
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Feb 27, 2010 - 10:27pm PT
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Here in the US our flight from reason has brought us to the point that politics itself has become religion and we are no longer operating our country. People aren't interested in learning what is actually happening and the US has regressed into a primitive society. In some ways we are now more backwards even than Iraq.
I've been thinking several weeks now about jstan's idea that politics has become religion in the U.S. and I've decided to respectfully disagree based on my experience of living in both Hindu and Buddhist villages in Nepal. What I perceive instead, is that the U.S. is becoming like the Hindu village with it educated and wealthy Brahmin elite and it's 20% Untouchables at the bottom and everyone in between trying to imitate the Brahmins because they're scared to death of slipping backwards.
The Brahmins perpetuated their feudal powers by keeping everyone else illiterate and through the cynical manipulation of religion - truly an opiate of the masses type situation. I say that crafty politicians in the U.S. are doing the same thing - not because they believe but because it gives them money and power.
Things change however, even in a country like Nepal. The sons of the Brahmin landlords joined the socialists and communists, the furthest anyone could get from the monarchy and the caste system, and they have pushed the whole country ahead several centuries in its thinking compared to just 30 years ago. Tribals, Untouchables, and women all played active roles in the Maoist army which finally brought down the king and legal system supporting caste. The Untouchables seem to be going for Christianity now, and the Buddhist are happy and productive where they are.
The interesting question in my mind is what will it take for the Americans to wake up to creeping feudalism in our society and change their government and maybe their religious belief system in the process. Personally, I don't think atheism and unbelief will do it for most people. I think they need something positive to believe in, to be willing to sacrifice for. Whatever that is, we don't have it in America yet (and I'm not advocating socialism/communism/Maoism) even though that worked in Nepal).
Probably things will have to get a whole lot worse before they get better and maybe none of this will be possible until world population peaks fifty years from now.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 27, 2010 - 10:52pm PT
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Jan wrote-
and I've decided to respectfully disagree
Sometimes I think you're too nice for this wild west styled forum. Or is it just your writing style? Hmm...
I think they need something positive to believe in, to be willing to sacrifice for. Whatever that is, we don't have it in America yet
re: "yet..." Ah-hah! I sense you are coming around! In regard to imagining alternative models and building anew, thinking anew, practicing anew. (For the culture, the species and the world, that is.)
All I can say is that... it's being worked on... diligently. (I know of more than one group.) A generation from now, alternatives will be available. In regard to belief. In regard to guidance, inspiration, and support. In regard to having modern standards in these areas. Keep the faith.
Hadrian- Brick by brick.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 28, 2010 - 12:11pm PT
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Weschrist-
Monkeysphere. Why it is so easy to use the US vs. THEM game on the small minded monkeys among us...
http://www.cracked.com/article_14990_what-monkeysphere.html
Interesting article. Regarding the "monkeysphere." Insightful. Ties in with my life experience.
If the circle or sphere were called "empathy sphere" or "compassion circle" or the like then it might get more traction in pop culture, studies in tribalism, etc.. Maybe.
Then one could talk about primate spheres (short for empathy spheres), monkey spheres, human spheres, conservative and liberal spheres, family spheres, large empathy sphere people, small empathy sphere people, etc.
re: a change of terms... I'm just reminded what Mark Twain wrote. -Which I use all the time. The difference between the right word and almost the right word is the difference between lightning and the lightning bug.
Or... "sympathy sphere"
Coincidentally, another link by Skeptimistic
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/02/26/liberals.atheists.sex.intelligence/index.html?hpt=C2
suggests conservatives have a smaller sympathy sphere (or monkeysphere) than liberals!
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jstan
climber
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Feb 28, 2010 - 12:48pm PT
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"The Brahmins perpetuated their feudal powers by keeping everyone else illiterate and through the cynical manipulation of religion - truly an opiate of the masses type situation. I say that crafty politicians in the U.S. are doing the same thing - not because they believe but because it gives them money and power."
That's what I was saying Jan. I agree completely.
I see politicians saying one word. "Socialism!"
And people are expected to react, and do, exactly as though he had said "Satan!"
Politics has become reflexive and words are used that hook into previously prepared slots in our minds.
That .......IS ..........religion. To a "T".
Unquestioned obedience is the result.
Unquestioned obedience is the superhighway to power and wealth
for someone.
Not for us.
As for how we are to save ourselves. For what are we willing to sacrifice?
We are not willing. We are spending our grandchildren into a life of unrewarded toil.
No problem.
We don't respect each other. If you can get away with taking something that is not yours.. you are good to go.
No problem.
Self-centered people unwilling to rein in their greed inevitably resort to......violence.
Popularly this is presently called "Kick butt."
Sheer ignorance........self-centeredness........greed.........anger.
We are making the word "american" synonymous with these.
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Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
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Feb 28, 2010 - 09:28pm PT
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That's one of my favorite
proverbs!
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