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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 1, 2009 - 03:05pm PT
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"Ardi" is the nickname given to a shattered skeleton that an international team of scientists painstakingly excavated from the Ethiopian desert, analyzed over the course of 15 years, and declared Thursday to be a major breakthrough in the study of human origins. Ardi lived more than a million years before "Lucy," a much-celebrated, 3.2 million-year-old fossil of an early human progenitor found just 45 miles away.
If the scientists are correct, Ardi and her kind were the ancestors of our ancestors. She was a transitional figure, almost a hybrid -- a tree creature who could carry food in her arms as she explored the woodland floor on two legs.
The skeletal remnants of Ardi were recovered along with bones from at least 35 other members of a species that the scientists call Ardipithecus ramidus. Their arduous investigation had incited grumbling in a scientific community that had grown impatient to find out what exactly had been found in the silty clay of Ethiopia. The answers are dramatic, detailed in 11 papers published Thursday in the online edition of the journal Science and discussed in dual press conferences in Washington and Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.
The discovery of Ardi "further confirms that Ethiopia is the cradle of humankind," said Yohannes Haile-Selassie, the paleontologist who found the first two bones of Ardi in 1994.
Human origins is a field with high stakes and small bones, and the elaborate roll-out of the new research probably will trigger debate about the message contained in fossils so fragile they had to be excavated with dental picks and porcupine quills.
"It was a sort of a time capsule from 4.4. million years ago with contents that nobody had ever seen before," said Tim White, a University of California at Berkeley paleoanthropologist who led the Ardi research team. "We worked for years at opening that time capsule by collecting every shred of evidence that we could find."
The scientists who found Ardi do not contend that she necessarily evolved into Lucy. The human line of primates could have splintered, with some species turning into genetic dead ends. Lucy's line of primates could have diverged from Ardi's line long before Ardi lived. Even so, White said he believes that his team has documented an evolutionary sequence that shows, at the genus level, where people came from. Ardipithecus, then Australopithecus, then Homo.
Lucy, a member of the species Australopithecus afarensis, was a small-brained primate that had fully adapted to a bipedal life and had expanded its habitat beyond the forest into the savannah of Africa. Unlike Ardi, she lacked the grasping big toe. Ardi and Lucy had different teeth, with Lucy's enlarged molars more adapted to a wide-ranging diet on the savannah.
"Ardi tells us twice as much as Lucy did. We have hands and feet, a more complete environment, a more complete skeleton, it's older, it's more primitive, it shows us the process of transformation from common ancestor to hominid," said C. Owen Lovejoy, an anthropologist at Kent State University who was part of the Ardi team.
complete article here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/01/AR2009100103432.html
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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"Yohannes Haile-Selassie"?
Jah love!
Sure as Ska and Reggae have a common ancestor.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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What where's the missing link?
~Jody
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Very cool indeed..
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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there is no god....
or at least the story in the book is a little off.. and that pulls the whole book into question as it is man made
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apogee
climber
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It's all part of God's plan.....
Heh.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 1, 2009 - 03:55pm PT
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2008 Republican Primary Debate:
Raise your hand if you believe in Evolution.
NOT ONE REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE RAISED HIS HAND.
NOT ONE.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 1, 2009 - 04:12pm PT
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Fatty,
1) Your market timing is horrible. You went short over a month ago.
Given the decay in your options, you might be back to break even from your losses. Stick with raking in commissions, you are no pure trader.
2) You said you were "net short". That is a bush league pussy position.
Next time you want to play with the big boys, quit screwing around
and go 100% short the December S&P 500, and from 1072.
Sigh, you have SO much to learn, Jeff.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 1, 2009 - 04:17pm PT
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Scientists can use different chemicals for absolute dating:
The best-known absolute dating technique is carbon-14 dating, which archaeologists prefer to use. However, the half-life of carbon-14 is only 5730 years, so the method cannot be used for materials older than about 70,000 years.
Radiometric dating involves the use of isotope series, such as rubidium/strontium, thorium/lead, potassium/argon, argon/argon, or uranium/lead, all of which have very long half-lives, ranging from 0.7 to 48.6 billion years. Subtle differences in the relative proportions of the two isotopes can give good dates for rocks of any age.
Scientists can check their accuracy by using different isotopes.
The first radiometric dates, generated about 1920, showed that the Earth was hundreds of millions, or billions, of years old. Since then, geologists have made many tens of thousands of radiometric age determinations, and they have refined the earlier estimates. A key point is that it is no longer necessary simply to accept one chemical determination of a rock’s age. Age estimates can be cross-tested by using different isotope pairs. Results from different techniques, often measured in rival labs, continually confirm each other.
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dirtbag
climber
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It's very clever of G-- to test our faith by planting fossils.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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I'm a fossil. So I speak from experience. What were we talking about?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 1, 2009 - 04:53pm PT
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NOPE, it is not Jeff.
I was both a Stock Broker and a Commodity Futures Broker in the 1970's.
Even way back then, I put ALL my client's money, AND MY OWN, in a
basket of multiple account orders. All of us took the same position
at the same moment.
No one should give anyone else investment advice unless they personally
are risking the same percentage of their net worth on the result.
Otherwise, it is not honest, and just all BS talking into commissions.
Someday Jeff, I hope you get good enough to not have to make a living
by talking other people in to buying market crap.
That's no different from selling used cars. Trade ONLY your own account.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sheesh, Tami, where do you think petrified forests come from?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 1, 2009 - 05:27pm PT
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Tami,
sorry it got off topic, thanks to Fatty spewing stock market crap talk.
However, he IS such a fossil........
And you can see from my avitar which side my people come from.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Crazy world and the creationists are missing it all..
Do you really believe that? You think it's either science or creation? If you're a scientist you don't believe in creation and vice versa?
That's untrue and pretty f*#king assuming.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Aww come on now Bluey, it's just that if you have any background in science whatsoever, you're more likely to have the critical thinking skills necessary to realize that there is no evidence whatsoever for our "creation" by a higher power in the manner christians claim.
Eric, I have an electronics degree and troubleshoot very complex digital electronic systems down to the f*#king component level of a specific card.
I wonder if there's any critical thinking involved in that? I must be too stupid to understand your point, but whatever....ignorance is bliss, right?
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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If you're a scientist you don't believe in creation and vice versa?
Creationists are generally though of as those who reject naturalistic origins of man, i.e. evolution.
Could God have created the universe in such a way so that man would eventually be created through natural processes? Sure.
But did God create Adam and Eve in current human form? That takes a great deal of self delusion to believe IMO.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 1, 2009 - 08:21pm PT
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Well, some 92% of the members of the American Society of Scientists
do not believe in the traditional concept of a "god".
Sure, go ahead and attack the source, pretend that "scientists" can be
just as dumb as anyone else. Maybe say you know a dumb scientist.
Always attack the source when you don't like what a poll or study says.
This high number of non believers holds true throughout the general population
as it relates to education level.
In general, the more education one has, the more one is trained to think
in a deductive manner, and therefore less likely to accept the concept of a god.
Not liking this either, one could then attack education, if they knew how to.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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//Well, some 92% of the members of the American Society of Scientists
do not believe in the traditional concept of a "god".//
WTF does that mean??? Traditional concept????
You, who are irreligious, constantly use the Bible as a source when many religious people don't take it literally.
World created in 7 (6) days???
The more you try to dispute this and find a non-answer, the crazier you sound.
I don't believe that and I am religious. It's almost as if you seek justification in your atheistic life by constantly examining the Bible for discrepecies that don't make sense to us.
Keep on keeping on, live in your little pathetic world. The time will come when you'll know if you were right or not. I don't dwell on it myself.
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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I'm not sure why guys like Norton, Weschrist and dr F seem to think this kind of finding somehow disproves/invalidates or affects Christianity in some negative way. It is quite possible to simultaneously have a "scientific" and Christian worldview. I am compelled by Christianity and inspired by science and findings like this at the same time. I consider myself a scientist(dual doctorates...DMD and a masters in bone physiology) and a Christian. The two are not mutually exclusive in my opinion.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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The two are not mutually exclusive in my opinion.
I guess that was my point too. It's disingenuous to suggest they are. Kinda like, "you're either a Repub or Dem, pick one!!!".
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Just watched the video on Science.com
amazing stuff. I like how they point to the "fork" between chimps and humans in the tree concept rather than links in a chain. This falls somewhere closer to the fork, but isn't claiming to be "The Link."
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 1, 2009 - 09:16pm PT
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Bluering asks what is the traditional concept of a god.
Anyone care to help him out on what this might mean to most people?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 1, 2009 - 10:11pm PT
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Good evening Howard.
You are mistaken.
When asked if anyone "believed in evolution", NOT ONE raised their hand.
Just........silence.
Flash forward to the Democratic Primary Debate:
This time, the question was: Does anyone NOT believe in evolution?
Not one raised their hand.
(The moderator pretty much knew in advance that democrats do NOT deny science)
How nice if EVEN ONE REPUB had said he believed in evolution.
But none would say so, because either they feared losing the "Christian" vote, OR they secretly DID believe in evolution but were too GUTLESS
to tell the truth, for fear of losing some vote. VOTES meant everything.
The Democrats were HONEST, they did not give a sh#t about losing any
votes by saying they believed in evolution. HONESTY, NOT votes, meant everything.
And who won the election by an Electoral Landslide? HONESTY over vote pandering morons.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 1, 2009 - 10:35pm PT
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Remarkable, we happen to totally agree that the evangelical Christian
vote going virtually 100% GOP had NO effect on the election.
WHY? Because with abortion and evolution, the Dems wrote that vote off long ago.
Buyer's remorse? Those on the political right would like to think that,
because that would tend to validate their own opposite the winner vote.
ALL President's approval polls drop off after the election, no body
stays at inauguration patriotism polling high. Nothing new or telling here.
Election held again right now, again Obama kicks McCain's ass.
Think Obama will not win a second term? Feel real sure of yourself?
How sure? Like sure enough to bet me real money he won't be re elected?
Money that we could put up now and mutually agree who would hold it?
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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The earth isn't as young as some would think. The role that the skeleton played in the big picture of things will be pretty speculative, but I don't doubt its as old as its claimed to be.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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And so castles made of sand fall in the sea, eventually
JIMI HENDRIX
Build Your House on the Rock
“Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”
until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ
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WBraun
climber
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"If the scientists are correct" and that's what it's all based on, that simple speculative statement.
You all seemed to be so sure about your selves by guessing,
Real good scientists ya all are ......
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Now Werner, you know the scientifically based "Evolutionists" aren't guessing. Creationsists?guessing is all they have! and all they need, apparently.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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A purely mechanistic view of creation and existence seems to me just as unlikely as stock creationism (and not the kind of dynamic creationism put forth by Nobel winner Henri Berson or Teilhard de Chardinn).
If you truly understood how mechanically personalities and ego-structures worked, you'd realize that you don't "need" consciousness to explain most human behavior. "Free choice" is simply action vectored off past conditioning playing out in the present moment.
So you can say we don't "need" consciousness to explain evolution, that we can concoct a model, based on repeatable experiments, using a purely mechanical model. But that still does not mean consciousness was not present all along.
But this is a tricky one, and I'm tired . . .
JL
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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and yer ramblin'....
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jfailing
Trad climber
A trailer park in the Sierras
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A friend of a friend's parents believed that there are members of the scientific community who travel around the world and "plant" fake bones of animals (like dinosaurs and strange apes) just to disprove the creationism theory. That's pushing it if you ask me.
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apogee
climber
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"It's almost as if you seek justification in your atheistic life by constantly examining the Bible for discrepecies that don't make sense to us."
To be sure, there are a some 'irreligious' types (to use your word) that hold strong agendas, and seek to invalidate any aspect of Christianity (or religion in general) that they can find. My guess is that these people make up a relatively small, yet very vocal, percentage of the number of people who do not hold any traditional religious beliefs (agnostic or atheist). For myself, I simply become inflamed when I see or reflect on the myriad of ways that religion (esp. Christianity) has permeated this country, society and politics, driven by a relatively small group of fundamentalist believers who are really not much different from the Taliban in their persistence and intolerance.
"In general, Dems/libs believe in evolution and in general GOP/conservatives support creationism (idiotic though it is)."
I would agree that a (vast?) majority of Dems/Libs are confident of the reality of evolution (as opposed to a 'belief'), but I doubt that a similar percentage of Repubs have strict creationism beliefs. My interactions with Repubs has usually demonstrated that their beliefs are somewhere along the spectrum, and accept/embrace the science and facts of evolution. As usual, the characterization of the GOP as being entirely comprised of Creationists is created by a relatively small, yet persistently vocal, minority.
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WBraun
climber
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A conditioned soul in the material world has the disqualification of cheating. He has four disqualifications: he is sure to commit mistakes, he is sure to be illusioned, he is prone to cheat others, and his senses are imperfect.
Modern science is incomplete.
Modern theories take on another strike and run to the dugout ......
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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"I wish also that other wise very smart people wouldn't confuse this hard science with the many other philosophies and psychologies that we use to understand ourselves and our world."
Paraphrased, this purports that "hard science" has an exclusive on the "truth" by virtue or measurements (hard science IS measurement of some THING or THINGS), whereas "philosophies and psychologies" are sort of guessing or hoping for the truth via speculation,"faith" and nebulous (false = unverifiable) Godspeak.
In fact, hard science has an exclusive on measurements, which witout fail will render a mechanistic, materialistic, and reductionistic model of all.
Porblem here is that reductionism has been junked as untenable, especially by those studying consciousness (neuroscientists and psychobiologists, mainly).
JL
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apogee
climber
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From the polls I have followed, and from my interactions with a wide range of Repubs, it seems quite clear that while there is certainly a percentage that have strict "7-day creation"-style beliefs (with no room for any other possibility- essentially, the strict fundamentalists), there are far more who believe that somehow both creationism and evolution exist together.
Obviously, this is a reflection of the melding of 'belief' and science, and I'm not making a case that this is or is not the 'correct' view of the world. In many of those people, there is at least an open-mindedness to another view, which is a much more positive attribute than the closed-minded fundamentalists. Those with strict science-based views of the world (I tend to place myself amongst them) tend to view and regard anyone with any level of creationist belief as fundamentalist loonies- and this just isn't the case (most of the time).
Whatever one's beliefs, they deserve to be respected as fellow human beings, and not have others views forced upon them and their lives. Productive, interesting conversations and learning can occur when a baseline of respect exists amongst persons of differing views. The vitriole and divisiveness that exists in our society and country is a sad reflection of the lack of basic respect for others.
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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In the 150 yrs. since Darwin wrote his Origin of Species the fossil record is not only lacking
in the transitional forms he said would be needed to complete his theory, it is COMPLETELY
DEVOID of any transitional forms. As such the evolutionary "scientists" keep guessing and
changing their best guesses. The newest line of B.S. is called "Punctuated Equalibrium", it
proposes that things stayed the same for a very long time, then in the twinkling of an
eye, poof, a dramatic changed occurred. Wow.... pay no attention to that man behind the
curtain
Doug
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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It's interesting that the Catholic church has made a stance that belief in evolution can coexist with religious doctrine. Just a little digging, however, turns up a lot of problems with any God-guided evolution. For instance, if you believe that humans have souls (and animals don't), at what juncture in human evolution did this occur? Was it at the ape/hominid juncture, the hominid/homo juncture, or perhaps the homo/homo sapien juncture? Maybe it wasn't until just before recorded history, after homo sapiens had already been around for a quarter of a million years or so. It would seem so arbitrary. Largo mentions de Chardinn, who thought about this subject, but who did not have the knowledge we now have of all of the competing species in the genus homo, all except us who have gone extinct.
Based on evidence from mutiple disciplines, evolution is entirely self-consistent, requiring no meddling by a supernatural being all of the way back to the beginning of life. Scientists are even making some pretty decent strides into explaining what may have happened at the no life/life juncture as well.
edit - Flanders, what you just posted is absolute untruth.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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the entire fossil record consists of transitional forms.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Are we here because of God(s), luck, or inevitability?
With billions of galaxies, each having billions of planets and stars, and given astronomic time scales is it inevitable that intelligent life would develop? Or is there an intelligent force out there that created things so we would develop? Or is God more like Einstein's view of God - that the existence of everything is it's own reason and reflection? Or are we just extremely lucky to have the perfect conditions for life, a one time fluke in the universe?
It's similar to why are we here as individuals. What are the chances that our parents would meet and create us? What are the chances that out of millions of sperm the one that created us is the one that got to the egg?
How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie roll pop?
Oh, and people aren't wearing enough hats.
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WBraun
climber
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genes and DNA are responsible for all our traits and existence.
Genes and DNA are still material. Your car is comprised of electronics and many material elements created and built by a superior living entity (soul).
The car will never run nor be built without the superior energy (soul) creating or starting it up.
Keep religion out of the topic as it is sectarian and material too.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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I like one of the theories Ardi helped scientists propose. That the males of these early hominids traded food for copulation. Not much has changed in the last 4 million years. :-)
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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In the 150 yrs. since Darwin wrote his Origin of Species the fossil record is not only lacking
in the transitional forms he said would be needed to complete his theory, it is COMPLETELY
DEVOID of any transitional forms.
Are you daft?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Flanders, was that tongue in cheek or do really not get it? Every single fossil is a transitional form. So are you, so am I. Time is Really Big! I know that is hard to take in, but if you can comprehend the scale, it all makes sense.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 2, 2009 - 01:39pm PT
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Run the random tape of the 4.5 billion year evolution of planet earth over
and over, and there is a good chance that our species never evolved.
This assumes the exact delicate and perfect makeup of carbon and oxygen
necessary for life to evolve into mammals, to primates, to us.
We are a random, statistically improbable happening. So really, quite special.
Somewhere short of a billion years from now, our sun gets so hot that it
makes life impossible on this planet. Our prognosis is very poor.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Sheesh, Werner. You are exasperating. You are one of the least tolerant of others' views and yet spew your own, crazy beliefs as self evident truth.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 2, 2009 - 02:08pm PT
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Nav, I am curious about the source of your statement that Einstein believed
that without god, science is lacking.
I don't recall him making a statement like that.
In fact, on numerous occasions, Einstein quite clearly said/indicated
that he was at the least an agnostic, and most probably an atheist.
This can easily be fact checked by googling Einstein - god -beliefs, etc
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WBraun
climber
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Not everything is in Google.
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WBraun
climber
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Yes Einstein was an impersonalist.
99% percent of the world ultimately sees God as impersonal aside from those that say God does not exist at all.
Where does consciousness originate? What material instrument can acurately measure consciousness?
None, yet everyone knows it's existence.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Another fossil was recently found in the Olduvai Gorge which completely refutes any notion of "intelligent" design.
edit:
Jeff I don't think you'd take offense, but just in case.. just kidding.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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PROOF!!!! There IS a reason for evolution!!!!!!!!!!!!
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Fet - your graphic, while silly, is thought provoking:
Somewhere back on that evolutionary chain is Ardi. And Ardi, from everything I've read so far, would probably have been the best rock climber (not the best tree climber - any chimp could kick Ardi's ass) in our whole family tree.
Basically fully upright, able to balance on her feet; less massive than us (great strength to weight); a huge ape index; with powerful arms and hands; and with opposable toes.
So your graphic is interesting, but the rope and cliff is on the wrong species - it should be on Ardi!
GO
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Josh Nash
Social climber
riverbank ca
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I don't get how that disproves anything....all Genesis says is God created....it doesn't say how he did it it's just that He did it. There is a really insightfull book called Genesis and the Big Bang and it's about how there is nothing really contradictory about what science is learning and what is written in the original Hebrew.( I know run on sentence.)
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Howweird, it probably has to do with the ability to travel great distances. Man would migrate to areas with food/water. Track game for a great length of time until the prey was worn out.
A man is probably superior to other primates when it comes to long distance treks. Different niches.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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None, yet everyone knows it's existence.
You assume too much.
Right on Wes... I guess that there's a few of us that don't count in the "everyone" word.
No... I don't know it exists. I have no proof of anything. The world is relative to your perception of it. Supreme consciousness only exists if you tell yourself it does. But then... there's nothing to prove you just told yourself anything.
Non-sequiter, werner. A logical Fallacy.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Eeyonkee wrote: "It's interesting that the Catholic church has made a stance that belief in evolution can coexist with religious doctrine. Just a little digging, however, turns up a lot of problems with any God-guided evolution. For instance, if you believe that humans have souls (and animals don't), at what juncture in human evolution did this occur? Was it at the ape/hominid juncture, the hominid/homo juncture, or perhaps the homo/homo sapien juncture? Maybe it wasn't until just before recorded history, after homo sapiens had already been around for a quarter of a million years or so. It would seem so arbitrary. Largo mentions de Chardinn, who thought about this subject, but who did not have the knowledge we now have of all of the competing species in the genus homo, all except us who have gone extinct."
The preceeding argument has widely been used to investigate consciousness, especially self-consciousness. That is: WHEN in our evolutionary process did we become self-aware? The problem with this is - as the psychobiologists and neuroscientists are saying - that it assumes a purely reductionistic and mechanistic view of consciousness as a "thing" or property "created" by a brain - IOWs, consciousness can be "reduced" to a mechanistic function of atomic brain activity. Problem is, leading neuroscientists say this isn't so. Consciousness is not something the brain "does," it's what the brain "is."
Someone earlier mentioned how gravity doesn't seem to have a mechanism, and yet gravity is said to be the strongest force, overall, in the material world.
Go figure . . .
Interesting, no?
JL
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Hi All,
Are you Groovin' on the full moon tonight...big dark sky mixed with floaty puffs of alabaster cloud. Jess spoke to climbers near Mt. Whitney where the glorious flash lite moon is highlite outlite ing the peaks with Alpine Glow.....whoa, life don't get any better. Appreciate it while yo healthy and can breathe. Or Appreciate it cause you are alive.
And Yah, the Question, does it really matter?
And that's another Question, where does matter come from and who or what caused it to be ? Not me ....no sheee.
Matter matters not dear friends. Enjoy the moon and all the peace and beauty sended from it. lynnie
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Yes I believe God made us and the worlds as He said He did in Genesis. But I know He could have made it in an instant, just like in I Dream of Jeannie, blink, blink, POOF! However He took His time because He enjoyed Himself and to show us that we should to and also rest from are labor and give thanks to Him!
God made everything to fit His purpose, it's not an accident. Look at the heavens you can set a clock to them! All this is just the work of His fingers, and the earth is His footstool.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Sick double dynos
Freesolo, naked, no chalk or shoes!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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The earliest physical evidence we have of religious belief (not necessarily the first in occurrence) is pre Homo sapiens and is found with the Neanderthal species and dates back to 300,000 years ago. Worship of bears, fertility symbols, the sun, and belief in an afterlife as evidenced by burying men with hunting tools and women with jewelry and mineral sticks used for body decoration. Therefore to reject notions of religion, the soul/consciousness etc. is to negate at least 300,000 years of hominid history.
Particularly with Homo sapiens there is every indication that religion, art and music flowered almost simultaneously, first in Africa and then all over the world. The modern conundrum of feeling that one has to choose between understanding nature through science or through religion, is a recent dichotomy and cuts us off from both our distant and our recent past. Perhaps this separation also explains, along with the disbanding of the family and the tribe, the modern phenomenon of widespread depression, drug addiction, and suicide? Perhaps ignoring hundreds of thousands of years of our history is not modern or progressive, but extremely detrimental to our species?
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin' place
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There is evidence of human beings and their ancestors scalping one another for at least 3 to 4 hundred thousand years too.
We continue to murder one another, but we are distanced from it; drones and bombers do much of our killing now. Maybe repression of our murderous impulses is causing drug addiction and suicide also.
Let's get back to the fundamentals of religion, better yet with human sacrifices. And let's all start scalping each other too; I'm sure it will be very liberating.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Given that some of the highest rates of alcoholism and suicide currently are among young military males returning from the Middle East, I don't think your repressed violence theory is right.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin' place
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That's when they return . . .
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Well I just had a long interesting discussion about this in my Physical Anthro class the other night where over half the students had been on multiple tours. What they said is that it was definitely the stress they were under there and couldn't leave behind that caused the problems.
They were also very interested in the idea that some warrior societies just remove the equivalent of the 18-25 year old males from the larger society and put them all together practicing their hunting and warrior skills and learning their special protective magic until they show enough wisdom to rejoin the main group.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin' place
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I was being facetious.
We may all have something that predisposes us to religious belief, but that doesn't mean there is a god, nor does it mean that religious belief is healthy for individuals or society in this day and age.
If one is indoctrinated into a religion, and then not allowed to follow his or her beliefs it could lead to addiction or suicide. But if there is a hole in each of us, I don't think religion, drugs or suicide need be the only choices.
Likewise, a thirst for violence may be a part of us. But I don't think killing others, addiction or suicide are the only answers either.
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jstan
climber
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If I read the reports of Ardi correctly (not a given) it seems the idea is being advanced that both the apes and man descended from Ardi. Then if you say Ardi is more human than ape, you come away saying the apes descended from man.
Previously it was thought we descended from a common ancestor which is quite different.
Which led me to my speculation that at precisely the point in time when we find people today are behaving more and more like monkeys, we discover the same thing happened some four million years ago.
We have been here before!
Edit:
Jan:
Thanks for onfirming my impression that Ardi is seen as more human-like than ape-like.
This is all a very subjective business but if it proves true, Ardi is a revolutionary find.
Now when I go to the zoo and talk to an ape I have to address him as "son."
All of this has direct application to climbers. In time climbers may break off from the human line and become a race of new knuckle draggers.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Wandafuca-
Thanks for the clarification. As an anthropologist, I admit that I sometimes take my discipline a little too seriously. Meanwhile I agree that just because religion has been a part of hominid evolution for hundreds of thousands of years doesn't mean that there is a God. That is a separate issue altogether. What does seem demonstrable is that humans are constantly searching for meaning, and that the search is part of the human condition.
It's too bad that for so many people, the existing religions no longer satisfy that search and that so many of the current religions, instead of expanding to another level, condemn those who no longer believe and continue on without reflection. Then again, many old religions have become obsolete and died out in the past so that may be what's happening here too.
One thing interesting about the military is how they have incorporated so many religious elements into their own secular rituals that one can go to a military funeral for example, which never mentions religion because the dead person was an atheist, and still feel that one went to a powerful group religious event. Secular or civic religion works too.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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jstan-
As I understand it, (and I'm still reading the articles in Science and trying to digest all this) Ardi has so many characteristics that are human-like, the still undiscovered common ancestor of Ardi and the chimp line (which DNA evidence says existed less than a million years before), will be less like an ape than anyone imagined.
From the chimp point of view this indicates a good possibility that the chimp ancestors once walked upright and only later reverted to knuckle walking on the ground.
From the human point of view, some archaeologists had previously claimed that two older species, Orrorin and Sahelensis (6 & 7 million years respectively) walked upright but no one believed that possible until now. Suddenly it seems feasible - all part of a 40 year trend in having to recognize that our most outstanding trait as humans is our legs, and not our brains (of course some of the recent threads on ST have made that point as well !).
Meanwhile, monkeys are distant cousins to both apes and humans and not more than a nuisance to the latter though one of the papers in Science notes that monkeys seem to have replaced apes in most areas so that the apes are only small and isolated remnant populations on the edge of extinction today. All in all, Ardi makes the apes look less important.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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I haven't been on the Taco Stand in the past few days, but wow, we can now put up avatar images next to our handles, coolaboola, I guess.
I wanted to post a similar thread some days back when I read that only something like 37% of Americans believe in evolution (as we know it). Incredible.
So does that mean that the majority (more than 50%) of Americans believe what was written by bearded men in tents in the Middle East some thousand of years ago.
Their thinking (perhaps?):
Ohhhhh, the sun is going away (solar eclipse) must be some God pissed off at us, for we have sinned. Quick, sacrifice a virgin, that should appease HIM.
Jesus Christ was real, but the shite idiots that thought up the religions that believe in the God of Abraham (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) and use it for their own agenda are just that, SH#TE. And of course other crap religions and cults (such as the cult of Scientology).
My own progression? Born and baptized a Catholic, turned agnostic in mid-teens and now an avowed atheist.
I was sitting on the porch the other day, here in Dalkey, contemplating my navel (and whether to walk the five minutes to the rock in the quarry), when this bloke enters through the gates and says (in an English accent) "nice secluded place you have here". Now I had heard him talking with my neighbor's daughter (I presume) over the hedges, and he then says "We were talking about the Lisbon Treaty (which went to referendum here in Ireland yesterday), and I replied "I am not interested" and he says "I am not either" and I say then you must be a Jehovah's Witness (who else turns up at your doorstep if there is not a political message), and was I right? You bet.
So when he said that he was a JW, I said that I was an atheist, and he asked what made me come to be one. "I believe in evolution, not creation, and that is enough, goodbye."
And off he went. None the wiser I'd think.
EDIT (Off Topic)
Hey eKat, I bought a new guitar (and piano) yesterday. I was thinking about Blinny's guitars but I don't think they are available here in Ireland. I was looking for a Martin or Gibson but the lad convinced me that I would be paying over the top and I bought a Cort, solid body and all.
Hey Bluey, don't you have Italian heritage? That Berlusconi sure make Italy look foolish, with his repeated comments about Obama having a suntan. Berlusconi puts his foot in his mouth as much as Dubya did (does), and is possibly even more corrupt (moral and otherwise) than Bushie boy. But then, gathering from your posts on Obama, you probably think he has a good suntan as well. But it is not just an Italian (and Italian-American) thing, this propensity towards bias and idiocy, some of the 'biggest' bashers of blacks, minorities and gays in San Francisco back in the 1970s/80s were Irish-American kids (many from the Sunset District at the time). I know, because I worked in the City at the time as well as played football with them (San Francisco Celtic and other teams).
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan,
"The earliest physical evidence we have of religious belief (not necessarily the first in occurrence) is pre Homo sapiens and is found with the Neanderthal species and dates back to 300,000 years ago."
All of Pharaoh's trust in the god's of men(the sun god Ra, Sphinx, himself etc.), did not save him from the one true God of Moses!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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What have Pharoah and Moses got to do with Neanderthal?
Just because the Bible accounts of history are old, doesn't mean they are prehistoric.
A little less literalism and you might begin to appreciate the symbolic and spiritual nature of the Bible - the part of it that has universal appeal.
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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you guys got me here, I have to admit it, I just don't get it .
BUT, neither did Cambridge astrophysicist Sir Frederick Hoyle and Chandra Wickramasinge,
astrophysicist and professor of applied mathematics. Real scientists by the way, unlike the
psuedo-scientists like Richard Dawkins. Hoyle and Wickramasinge ran the mathematical
probabilities of the basic enzymes of life being formed through random chance and concluded
the odds at 1 in 1 with 40 thousand zeroes, or in simple terms so utterly implausible as to
be a non-issue.
Doug
P.S. Neither of these guys were those wacky ID nuts either !
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Bad Climber
climber
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Hey, Werner: The fate of our solar system and our own little star is well understood by astro-physicists. The amount of fuel (hydrogen), the rate of burn, etc. give a clear picture of the REAL end times: The swelling of our sun in its death throws to toast this lovely little earth.
Science can't tell us how to live or love. It just tells us a lot of the time how things work--including suns and fingers and the soaring truth of a the clouds at sunset as they drift over the top of Half Dome as I jugged the last pitch of Quarter Dome so many years ago.
bAd
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Flanders,
In response to your arguement from the math guys concerning the probabilities of life even getting started, this is from the talkorigins.org website http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html#proof
"Nor is abiogenesis (the origin of the first life) due purely to chance. Atoms and molecules arrange themselves not purely randomly, but according to their chemical properties. In the case of carbon atoms especially, this means complex molecules are sure to form spontaneously, and these complex molecules can influence each other to create even more complex molecules. Once a molecule forms that is approximately self-replicating, natural selection will guide the formation of ever more efficient replicators. The first self-replicating object didn't need to be as complex as a modern cell or even a strand of DNA. Some self-replicating molecules are not really all that complex (as organic molecules go).
Some people still argue that it is wildly improbable for a given self-replicating molecule to form at a given point (although they usually don't state the "givens," but leave them implicit in their calculations). This is true, but there were oceans of molecules working on the problem, and no one knows how many possible self-replicating molecules could have served as the first one. A calculation of the odds of abiogenesis is worthless unless it recognizes the immense range of starting materials that the first replicator might have formed from, the probably innumerable different forms that the first replicator might have taken, and the fact that much of the construction of the replicating molecule would have been non-random to start with.
(One should also note that the theory of evolution doesn't depend on how the first life began. The truth or falsity of any theory of abiogenesis wouldn't affect evolution in the least.)"
Anyway, it seems to me that any number really doesn't matter, it only had to happen once. Why else do people keep buying lottery tickets.
And just what are the odds of a fully functioning, all powerful god showing up?
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jstan
climber
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"BUT, neither did Cambridge astrophysicist Sir Frederick Hoyle and Chandra Wickramasinge,
astrophysicist and professor of applied mathematics. Real scientists by the way, unlike the
psuedo-scientists like Richard Dawkins. Hoyle and Wickramasinge ran the mathematical
probabilities of the basic enzymes of life being formed through random chance and concluded
the odds at 1 in 1 with 40 thousand zeroes, or in simple terms so utterly implausible as to
be a non-issue.
Doug
P.S. Neither of these guys were those wacky ID nuts either !"
Flanders has done something quite interesting here. He has attempted to use a statistical (scientific) calculation to show there is a god. As has been pointed out already the chemical properties of atoms makes their combination something less than random. Indeed astronomical IR spectroscopy now indicates the existence of enzymes in free space.
So the science quoted has been much improved since the reference he cites. That is the core advantage science has over faith. It can actually get better.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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? On your death bed are you going to think that maybe your were wrong and there is a God and that you wasted your life looking for proof?
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jstan
climber
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Gobee you badly over reach yourself when you tell me what I will feel on my death bed.
I have long considered life to be just my preparation for that moment.
If able, I will briefly consider the things I wish I had not done.
Then, though I have no evidence at all that an after life exists, I will look forward to meeting once again the woman who gave me everything.
This last is merely a neurological process that I know will be there.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Remember the last words of Aldous Huxley...
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2009 - 08:31pm PT
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And Gobee, since nothing will happen when YOU croak, you won't even be
able think about all the years of childish delusion you "wasted" as an adult.
Still believe in Santa and the Tooth Fairy too?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Now, I'm Santa and I believe in the dentist!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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That really was a killer moon, last night, Lynne....
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jaybro and All....Killer Moon is there again tonight. I'ts low and huge, framed by the two redwoods, and White, white against dark charcoal black sky.
It's great how you can trust the moon and sun to repeat their patterns and performances.
Being in the moment with moon and earth and life was time well spent tonight. Tempted by football games and other things that pull. I am not at home, But in a place that I could plug into life's seductions. Glad I got up and walked outside.
Peace all ..... being in the moment breathing. lynnie
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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You call someone who believes in God an idiot, but a fool says in his heart there is no God, and rejecting so great a salvation isn't so smart? You will just have yourself, rather small! God is Omni...
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Idaho, also. Sorta, kinda mostly, Yeah.
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Self Rescue, man.
I don't wanna make a production.
Why, exactly, do I want "salvation"?
Not my fault, this world.....I just showed up, & POW!
There it is. I didn't do it.
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WBraun
climber
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wes and Dr F -- Idiots think their belief IS proof.
Because you two believe there is no God that you and Dr F are idiots.
Wow!!!!! Now I've heard everything ......
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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The moon's still there.
Conversation with Grace can move thoughts into the soul. Argument for it's own sake sucks life from the same. Just throwing some heart out there. lynnie
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Some wisdom traditions consider God, consciousness, reality and truth as interchangable terms. Positing all and everything in the mode of thought is the limiting factor in all of this.
JL
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WBraun
climber
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There's an old saying .... a good horse will run at the sign of the whip.
A bad horse needs the whip just to be able to even move .....
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Hey Werner what if you have no hoarse at all...
... laryngitis perhaps...
okay, I admit, a bad pun.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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I think Einstein said it best.
"The most beautiful emotion we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of all true art and science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead, a snuffed out candle. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is something that our minds cannot grasp, whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly; that is religiousness."
The two opposite ends of the spectrum from Einstein are the atheist who looks out at our vast and beautiful universe and declares, "There is no God. Just ask me, I know everything", and the religious fundamentalist who look out at our vast and beautiful universe and says, "There is a God and I know everything there is to know about 'Him'. Just ask me".
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Largo has mentioned a few times that consciousness more or less changes the game and (I'm paraphrasing) cannot be explained by the merely mechanical (science).
As a matter of fact, consciousness, though complicated, like everything else in living organisms, clearly came about through evolution. First of all, you have to more or less agree with what consciousness is. It is NOT the soul. Most, if not all, animals have it to varying degrees. Tell me your dog does not have consciousness. Consciousness is a continuum phenomenon, and primates, particularly homo sapiens, have it to a larger degree than most animals. It's our higher or greater consciousness, not the fact that we have it at all, that places us a bit apart from other animals. And it is NOT the soul. And it is not immortal.
I'm no expert on this subject, but I know that the current thinking is that consciouness is something that more or less arises when an organism exceeds a certain number of neurological connections in the brain or they are connected in certain intimate ways. The well-known fact that man's brain capacity evolved dramatically through the Pleistocene, and that this phenomenon coincided with anthropogical evidence of culture (including religion) would seem to clearly show the relationship between the brain and consciousness, and that higher consciousness came about through evolutionary processes.
And Flanders, read Richard Dawkins - brilliant. He is well-respected in the scientific community and anything but a pseudo-scientist.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Foe Eyonkee:
Thesis: Thinking and knowledge are the product of a biological organ, the brain, and are therefore fashioned by evolution for brutely pragmatic purposes.
Refutation: This thesis can be refuted easily, since it destroys its own ontological foundation.
If we assume thinking to be a function of a biological and therefore physical system, we are forced, by this argument, to limit the capacity of thinking to the field of operability of this function within the biologically preset boundaries of the neuro-physiological system called brain. A function that grew by nature's selective evolution must inexorably be bound to the limits of the organic system within which this function is operative. The function is dependent on the system, it cannot transcend the system itself.
The term function may have several connotations[1]:
the action for which a person or thing is specially fitted or used or for which a thing exists : purpose any of a group of related actions contributing to a larger action; esp. the normal and specific contribution of a bodily part to the economy of a living organism
variable (as a quality, trait, or measurement) that depends on and varies with another, e.g. height is a function of age; also : result, e.g. illnesses that are a function of stress.
function implies a definite end or purpose that the one in question serves or a particular kind of work it is intended to perform
in physiology and psychology: performance and mode of activity of a bodily or psychic organ
in mathematics and logic: a mathematical correspondence that assigns exactly one element of one set to each element of the same or another set
functionalism: an answer to the mind-body problem. It defines mental states and properties in terms of what causes them, how they manifest themselves in behavior and how they interact with each other. (s. H. Putnam: states of consciousness are functions of the nervous system, especially of cerebral processes).
Definitions (i), (ii) and (iv) in particular contribute to the assumption that a function is embedded within a whole, a system. A function does not possess self-motivation or self-causation. It is strictly subject to natural laws and completely determined by them. Thus if thinking or knowledge is a function of a natural system, it must necessarily obey the laws of that system. This conclusion, however, is absurd: thinking would be completely determined and notions such as "free will" or "responsibility" could not be conceived reasonably. This is brute behaviorism, the human being as a machine.
If the above thetic assumption is true, why is it possible for us, to transcend these functional limits of the system in the very act of thought itself? Although we confess that most people never overcome the natural pragmatism of their thinking, we nevertheless have numerous examples of great human thinkers that excelled mediocrity and thus pragmatism by far. They were capable of extending their capacity of thinking into speculative and mystical realms. Philosophy is no means for survival. Never would a biological system have devised such a useless function. If thinking were only a product of the nature of the brain, it would never be possible within the given laws of nature to transcend the system's functionality. There is enough proof that thought CAN transcend the narrow set of functions of the brain. The reason that we can have thoughts going beyond the biological restraints of our brain, proves the immateriality and independence of our mind from matter.
Mind is not a product of matter. Neither are they functioning independently of each other. Mind is independent in so far as it does not depend ontologically on the existence of matter, but mind needs the brain to express itself through the human body and to give us an extended set of instruments for living in this world. This set of instruments, such as understanding , reason, emotions etc. are possibilities to transcend the biological nature of the human species, to go beyond the state of animality, to attain the special dignity of a homo sapiens.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jan, that's where the opposites collide and become one. I think most of us are more mid spectrum...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jaybro-
I agree. I also think based on my experience in Asia, that our ideas in the West of what religion/spirituality consists of, are extremely limited.
I like the idea that studying science with a sense of awe and wonder is a spiritual, if not a religious act. Likewise an atheist engaging in a humanistic donation of his or her time, or someone tending a bonsai tree several times a day, appreciating the wonders of nature by becoming familiar with every leaf, a musician creating a melody never heard before, a climber testing the limits of body and mind.
Looked at in this way, all of us are spiritual, though not necessarily religious.
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jstan
climber
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I have always tried not to think about consciousness because doing so always seems to end up as do discussions of philosophy. But try this on.
The brain is a neurological network and we know it reinforces the synapses that are critical to survival. That's what dreams and nightmares are. That is why we relive the moment we realized we could not downclimb to the last protection.
OK. So the network is primed and readied at all times for the next synapse.
It expects there to be a next synapse.
That expectation is consciousness.
Consciousness is the expectation that another moment will follow the present moment.
And that there will be another synapse.
Suppose for the moment this is correct.
Then since keeping the neural pathways ready is a strategy for survival and many creatures other than humans are so prepared (we all have heard our dogs moan in their sleep), can we not presume that, this consciousness at least, is possessed by many different creatures?
Edit:
Nice, Karl.
Very nice.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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What do you offer up as proof of your beliefs?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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I suspect we agree on a lot of things, Jan.
I got into climbing to 'be there' ; every foot, every pitch, every Jam. I got a degree in geology to be more there and to satisfy other curiosity.
i was confirmed in the methodist church. Subsequently things I read and experienced allowed me a different view.
It's an ongoing adventure.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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If we wanted to travel in space, we'd have to wear space suits.
For a spirit to travel on the earth, it has to wear a meat suit.
On the earth, things are in constant change, and one mechanisms of change is evolution.
That neither negates the Spirit consciousness within us, nor the reality of a higher power.
Many scriptures were written long before any awareness of electricity, or newtonian, much less, quantum physics. Physical truths could not be expounded to such ignorant populations, even if the prophets had a reason to share them or could understand the inspiration they received from a higher power.
THerefore, it's madness for religious folks to pin religious validation on denying evolution. It could easily be part of the manifestation of the divine order. Quit trying to eek science out of 2000 year old books.
Peace
Karl
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Amen Karl !
And religious people should stop assuming that those of us who don't share their particular religion and who do accept science and evolution, are not interested in religion or spiritual matters.
Because we don't accept easy formulas for the important questions, means the contrary. Most of us have thought much more deeply about spiritual questions than the average religious person.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Weschrist
You are as bad as the rightwing Christian who proselytics on the Bible and creationism. There is a middle ground, and for your information, everything evolution oriented you speak of is based on theory, and theory only. No one really know what caused man to appear. There is no missing link, there is no species jumping phylum. Things evolve and change, but there is nothing to show anywhere in the fossil record that we evolved from apes or other. A chart pieced togather by someone who wants to make a statement is hardly grounds for basing your beliefs on.
So a true intellectual keeps a open mind, and admits when they don't know, unlike you who purports to know, when as Werner would say, "You know nothing!"
Scientists like to make sensationalist statements becasue it gains them funding from one group or another, just like politicians. If you feel the compulsion to hook your bandwagon to one or another, so be it. But don't slander those who have no such need.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Whatever blows your dress up dude.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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For what it's worth, the bible says...."for as much as it lieth in you be at peace with all men." It also says, "speak truth in love mixed with grace."
I agree with Wes, don't want homosexual marriage, abortion etc. don't have one. Modeling life is much more important than talking a life.
Still don't get all the me/they...us/them stuff. What's wrong with sharing ideas and listening to others thoughts and ideas.
Peace and Joy on a beautiful Sunday.....as much as possible a jesus follower, lynnie
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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jstan-
Good point about animal consciousness. Hence the term in some religions of "sentient beings".
I'm not entirely clear about this but I think the kind of consciousness you are describing, the one that is keenly aware of time in the sense of future expectations, is our ordinary waking consciousness whereas the realm of spiritual consciousness is characterized by an absence of the sense of time. The question I'm wrestling with at the moment, is whether all consciousness, ordinary and extraordinary, is a function of mental processes taking place only within the physical brain.
Recently, neurosurgeons have found for example, that stimulating a particular area of the brain causes one to have a near death experience, but does this mean that all such experiences come from the brain or rather, that a certain configuration of chemicals and neurons is necessary for certain experiences of the non physical dimension to make themselves known and that electrical stimulation of that region produces a false replica of the true non physical experience? As you say, these sorts of questions end as discussions of philosophy always do with scientists generally leaning in one direction and spiritual/artistic types generally leaning in the other.
Weschrist-
It seems to me what both scientists and those interested in spiritual experiences should collaborate on for the near future anyway, are further studies of the interface between brain electricity and chemistry and the vast literature on spiritual experiences such as the one on belief.net that you refer to. Probably the new religious paradigm for Homo sapiens should focus on the methodology for transforming the human mind down to the biochemical level rather than trying to solve the seemingly imponderable questions of external causation. Of course some eastern philosophies have been saying this all along.
What does seem clear from the research done so far at a much less subtle level, is that people who believe in an external causation are more optimistic, have fewer heart problems, heal faster, and live longer. Thus back to my original observation, that spirituality/ religion/ the search for meaning is a fundamental trait of human beings and contributes to our survival and welfare, the current fanatics and their violence not withstanding.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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" Jesus was gay, or at least bisexual"
With statements like this, I'm supposed to trust that all the studies I've seen summarized were wrong and your interpretation is right?
I'm not objecting by the way, to your statement on religious grounds, but on scientific ones. Whether Jesus was or was not gay doesn't detract one bit from his message. The issue is, how could you possibly know about the sexuality of a man who lived 2,000 years ago who never chose to talk or write about it ??? Now who's being unscientific ???
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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You know he wasn't married.
No wife in the world would let a guy wander around with twelve of his pals for a weekend, let alone for years on end.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Good quip and I don't think you meant it this way but,
Just because a man or woman isn't married doesn't mean they're gay !
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Chaz, thanks for my theraputic laugh of the day.....hehehe
Jan, I sho know I'm not gay and I'm not married.....jess sayin' :D
Edit: all I can say is Lord, deliver me from my martini glass that comes up everytime I post. I'ts tough being a perfectionist procrastinator...what pic do I choose to replace and how to do it??????bwahahaha.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Weschrist-
With statements like
"Peter was the original capitalist pig doing whatever he could to sell what he had. Paul was his partner who never even met Jesus"
please explain to me how your position is any different than a blind religionist? You're just as prejudiced as they are but in the opposite direction.
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jstan
climber
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Jan:
It is now so long ago I can't remember the details but I suggested here that brain scans of persons in "spiritual experience" might elucidate that experience. As I remember it, I discovered this has actually received study. I doubt it will be carried to the point of stereotaxic probes but still something may be learned.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Weschrist, Dude and Friend.....yo say, "I am the off spring of Christian hate." DUDE, real Christian's ....Jesus followers are directed NOT to hate. You were the offspring of phony religious humans covering up their shortcomings instead of honestly dealing with them. imho, lynnie
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Wes, Paul did meet Jesus on the road to Damascus....It was a pretty huge Hello Dude, too. :D
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"No you moron, I call someone who thinks their believe in God is proof of God an idiot. I don't expect you to understand, you are an idiot"
Did you know in the Old Testament there are 300 Prophesy about the Messiah that Jesus fulfilled that prove He is the Christ, Son of God, of His first coming?
Also of His second coming there are 1845 in the Old, and 318 in the New Testament Prophesy yet to be fulfilled?
What father will give his son a snake when he asks for bread?
God did not leave us in the dark! The Bible is God's inspired word given to us. God's word never fails, it always comes true! In fact the Old Testament, the Prophet's Prophesy had to come true 100% of the time or he was not a Prophet.
Most animals walk after being born. Man is helpless for years, yet the baby thinks they are the center of everything. And we usually have to learn the hard way.
The Day of the Lord Will Come, 2 Peter 3:1-13
This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished (Noah and the flood). But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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You can run but you can't hide! JESUS LOVES YOU!!!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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I don't know radical. I have listened and learned alot on this forum over the past 20 months. I have learned alot from wes. You can read books etc. but real human dialogue on a heart, mind, soul and brain level is also on the level of the most awesome author/book. jess thinkin', lynnie
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Wes says, "there are few followers of jesus and few of them attend church."
Key words, few attend. Read, read, read people who say they are Christians. Where in the New Testament does it say we need to "attend church" ? Actually some of jesus last words were, "Go Ye into all the world."
Jesus never took attendance, never built a building. His gig, "Come unto me ALL ye that labor (having a tough time dude, I'll help) and are heavy laden and I WILL give you help." That's the Dude lynnie has entrusted her life to and yo has Never let me down.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Of course you know lynnie loves yo riley dude. And miss yo. Hope to see you at the J Tree this fall. I am zoned that you are so fit now. A No Cal Dude, gave me a great book and lots of really great advice on diet and exercise and I hope to be toned in @ 3-6 months (if people stop dying on me, been a caregiver for awhile now.)
Peace Riles,
Lynnie
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Wescrist wrote: "Mind IS a product of matter."
I would tend to agree with this if by "mind" you meant cognition, thought, thinking, and so forth. Awareness itself, the still, detached reference point that can experience thoughts, is not the "product" of any "thing." You're using a reductionistic/mechanistic causal reasoning here, basically saying that the brain "creates" overservation, that the act of observing is a function or result of the brain.
One of the problems here is that awareness itself has no content, that is, awareness and thinking/sensation/feeling/remembering/hearing/tasting/ etc... are not the same things. Moreover, as any meditator can tell you, awareness does not exist simply through its connection to content.
Beware: paradox coming.
Now clear your head for a moment, Wescrist, because here's the clencher. You struck out with your quote because your causation is screwy, tied as it is to a purely mechanistic (long ago junked) view of matter and things. Awareness is not a "thing" that is a product of matter. Awarenss IS matter, and matter IS awareness. There's no separation or duality in the material world.
JL
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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I've been gone for a few days, freezing my butt in the new snow, burrr. Fun to come back and see
where this has gone.
"Flanders has done something quite interesting here. He has attempted to use a statistical (scientific) calculation to show there is a god." Jstan.
I didn't actually attempt to show there is a God, nor did our brilliant astrophyicists come up with
with that conclusion. All they pointed out is the Darwin's theory of evolution is not remotely
plausible. Being real scientists, they do the measurements, do the calculations, record their
observations and see where it all leads; maybe to something they did not expect or even
something they didn't like. THAT IS SCIENCE !
I do find it rather interesting that so many diss God, or even the plausibilty of God. The entire
message can be summed up in Micah 6:8 . The prophet asks the ?, "what is it that the Lord
requires of thee" Then he answers his own ? " But to do justly, and love mercy, and to walk
humbly with your God.
It seems so plain and simple: do what is right, be forgiving, acknowledge God. Why do we humans complicate so many things? Yes, it's not always easy, Yes there are many hippocrites,
Yes, we ALL fall short of goal, but that is the reeeeeessst of the story.
Doug
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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JL, you have given me something to put in my heart/mind and mix about. Grazi.
Doug, wondered about yo today, and the snow and if you now need to do the 7 hour vs. the 2 hr.
Yeah, Micah 6:8......I am back in a great centered place. Thanks for your incredible friendship. Peace always, lynnie
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Are we talking about awareness or mind? Neither ARE matter.
Awareness is the perception of an entities interaction with its environment. Matter requires an interaction to be "aware" of anything. A billiard ball isolated in space is "aware" of only distance gravitational forces and electromagnetic radiation.
-
Not even close. Yo didn't read what I said - that awareness is not contingent on "content," or the mind's interaction with people, places or things, nor yet with thoughts. Ergo, matter does in fact NOT require an interaction to be "aware,' since it IS aware to begin with.
To grasp these concepts, it might do you to look into "no-mind," in the Zen sense, and see what they say about it. Also, when people talk about the "space" between thoughts, what do you think they mean, in terms of your own experience, NOT in terms of your thoughts on the matter.
Lastly, it's not "biofeedback," which is galavanic skin testing and so forth, but "neurofeedback," which uses an EEG machine and cuting edge software to induce brain states (great for treating ADD) and more recently, to arrest all "states." This has been a private study of mind since 1975.
JL
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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I wonder about people like me. I like to, on occasion grapple with the huge depths of these concepts. But generally I live my life simply and simply thinking and processing much. I really Live my life to the best of it and all it encompasses. But I live pretty much basically from my gut. I am not a scientist. Many thoughts in this thread have been offered from the realm of science. I believe one can live and know and achieve true peace, love and joy along with wisdom and knowledge and a friendship with god even if one is science deficient.
Dare I ask what yo think about these thoughts Wes ???
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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with all due respect,
awareness devoid of matter has never been observed
its existence may be speculated
in fact, all that we are aware of is tied to a material state, this is not a deep statement, rather a statement of fact, we are material, we are aware
it continues to be a good idea to pursue the material and reductionist card to the end and see just how far it takes us. I'd bet it takes us all the way... but it is just a bet.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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We were made in the image of God, like Him.
Roaches, scatter when the lights go on, they are aware of their environment.
Man, is the one that can act or pretend and play a role, or be out side himself, be an observer, self aware.
We are the one's that can have fellowship with are Maker, all else is just playing games.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Ed H. "we are material, we are aware." I think that is what I was trying to express in my above statement, but who knows.
As in school, one can get so caught up in the philo, the causement statement one loses the reality of life and movement of it today. Jess waking up and taking it one day at a time, one step at a time with peace and patience and perseverence...well that's precious life living and breathing.
Life......a thing to be loved, respected, perhaps sometimes dissected but above all to be hugged to your chest and appreciated.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin' place
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When it comes to Qualia I'm with Tye and the other reductionists.
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MH2
climber
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I agree with Ed. I heard a reputable neuroscientist, perhaps Eric Kandel, offer a good story about what may underlie awareness/consciousness. I think it had to do with central neurons that only light up when several widely separated brain regions are activated. Those would be neurons that could tie together sensations that are not necessarily related.
The brain has to do a lot of guesswork early in its life to make sense of what is going on around it. Adults have no idea what a huge amount of their "thinking" was acquired heuristically, very young, and outside of any education.
Your conscious awareness is only a light froth riding on an ocean of mental processing devoted to such things as temperature regulation, muscle coordination, and the pH of your blood.
I read the book The Probability that God Exists. It was written by a guy who makes his living estimating the odds on nuclear power plant disasters. He was motivated by the idea that even though science and faith are largely separate, there is nothing wrong with trying to use reason to ask questions about faith.
The result of his calculation was a 1 in 3 chance that God exists.
However, he specified that he was talking about a personal caring God who listens to and answers prayers, not a distant Cause who set the Universe in motion and let it run.
The main strike against God is that he would have no reason (that the author found plausible) to allow tidal waves or other natural disasters.
Funny thing was, he said God would allow people to do all kinds of nasty things to each other in order that they could have free will.
On CBC Radio today there was a biologist pointing out that the recurrent laryngeal nerve is evidence against an Intelligent Designer. In a giraffe this nerve goes about 15 feet out of its way before arriving at the voice-box, which it passes within centimeters of before descending to the stomach, hooking around the esophagus, and climbing back up the neck to the throat. It does that not because God had too many beers that afternoon but because we land creatures all came from fish.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin' place
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There are no veils to perception; Qualia and Self-awareness and Mushin no shin are difficult to explain, but there is more evidence that they require interacting material than any other gobeldygook.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Ed writes
"with all due respect,
awareness devoid of matter has never been observed
its existence may be speculated
in fact, all that we are aware of is tied to a material state, this is not a deep statement, rather a statement of fact, we are material, we are aware"
Awareness devoid of matter can not be observed but it can be the observer without an object of observation. Studies have shown that meditators of 25+ years can be aware during the deep sleep state (I do this personally) while for others it just a void.
Yet you might say we need a physical brain matter to house awareness. Then the soup gets thick and it's hard to prove somebody's out of body experience (even if they see something far away that they couldn't have otherwise known, people's eyes gloss over and they refuse to accept)
Mind this. All the dang matter on this whole planet could squeeze into the size of a softball in a black hole so matter isn't nearly what it seems to be, neither is consciousness. We think we know more than we really do
PEace
Karl
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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I think I may be alone in how I feel, but no matter how I feel is real....as in real life, real living, honest love and joy and peace mixed with the grit determination of not letting the world and it's spider webs wrap itself around me or my life.
So, I am no scientist with facts on how to live. But I do Live and generally do it well. With alot of Grace and Peace.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Largo, I'm no philosopher...my eyes start to glaze over when I hear terms like ontologoical and ergo. That being said, this sort of pure philosophical discourse is just not up to actually answering a question such as is mind or consciousness entirely the result of physical processes. With all due respect, there are bad assumptions throughout your logic train. The very notion that consciousness is transcendent with respect to the physical world is an opinion of yours and certainly not something that is self evident. Eyes evolved several times on this planet. Prior to their first emergence, what was sight? Seems to me, according to your logic, sight would be considered transcendent because it did not exist in the world prior to its appearance through evolution. Evolution works this way. It doesn't strive toward anything, yet novel things appear, as if designed.
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WBraun
climber
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The working senses are superior to dull matter.
The mind is higher than the senses.
Intelligence is still higher than the mind.
The soul, is even higher than the intelligence.
And .... why worry about Gobee, he does no harm to anyone here. If you get twisted by his posts then you have no self control and are not equipoised.
He who does not identify with the body is freed from the conception of false ego and is equiposed both in happiness and distress.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Weschrist-
I agree the answers are in Thomas. Unfortunately most people are not capable of understanding it - still.
One of the big benefits of living overseas is that creationism vs. evolution is not an issue outside the U.S.
Cintune and Weschrist-
Thank you both for the references to Ramachandran. I have ordered his book, The Emerging Mind.
One problem I do have with psychologists / psychiatrists / neurobiologists explaining the brain is that their focus is always on those with disturbed minds. It's a pity that we haven't yet spent the same amount of attention on what constitutes a healthy mind let alone a superior mind. There's a huge difference between an epileptic having religious experiences who thinks he's God and a person who experiences God and then takes up a compasionate way of life which helps many others.
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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"the point to remember is that the fossil problem for Darwinism is getting worse all the time. Darwinist paleontologists are indignant when creationists point this out, but what they write
themselves is extraordinarily revealing. After attending a geological conference on mass
extinctions, Harvard paleontologist Stephen J Gould told his readers that he had long been
puzzled by the lack of evidence of progressive development over time in the invertebrates
with which he was most familiar. He said, "We can tell tales of improvement for some groups,
but in honest moments we must admit that the history of complex life is more a story of
multifarious variation about a set of basic designs than a saga of accumulating excellence."
But Darwinist evolution should be a story of improvement in fitness, and so Gould regarded
"the failure to find a clear vector of progress in life's history as the most puzzling fact of the fossil
record"
from Phillip E. Johnson's Darwin on Trail
Doug
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Doug-
I am mainly familiar with homonid fossils and it is definitely possible to measure progress in fitness as each species that supercedes the other timewise (Ardipithecus, Austrolopithecus, Homo habilis, Homo erectus, Homo neanderthal, and Homosapiens) show improvements in bipedal mobility and endurance, an increase in brain size, and an ever more sophisticated tool tradition.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Ed-
I agree that it continues to be a good idea to pursue the material and reductionist card to the end and see just how far it takes us, (assuming we ever get to an end) . It will certainly be interesting to see what the new hadron collider turns up !
jstan-
I have read some about brain scans, mostly from a Buddhist perspective. However, as far as I know, the biochemistry of the brain and spiritual experiences has not been equivalently explored beyond figuring out how psychedelics work. There are many more experiences beyond that which no one has yet looked at, the main problem being, as we see here, that it is so difficult to find scientists and religious people who can share any kind of a common vocabulary.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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I think Karl Baba said it best. "We think we know more then we really do."
We just don't know, and quoting bible verses or quoting Darwin doesn't really change that. You have to go out on your own and find your own space, you own theories. and to me this is really important, allow others to do the same, even if they don't agree with you.
Your life is all about your journey, and what you do with it. My thought is one day we may be called to account what we did with our riches, our gift of life, but I'm not saying others have to believe that. If one day if comes to that, will you be able to stand tall and give your account? As the one thing I do know, there is more out there then meets the eye....
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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21st century Creationists, a sure sign of the Apocalypse!
We ARE Devo!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 5, 2009 - 02:29pm PT
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F.
Dawkins has a new book just out:
The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Thanks for that, flanders it is good to be alerted that Phillip E. Johnson, has no credibilty what so ever.
Where do you find this dreck?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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I have hesitated to get into this thread but now here goes . . .
From my point of view, and I see it all the time and have to deal with this question (Evolution vs. Creation) all the time, it really is better understood from an understanding of what science is and isn’t first, and then attempt to prove the original hypothesis or in this case the evolution theory valid or invalid.
Many think that science and religion have nothing to do with one another, and to be a good scientist you have to be an atheist. Wrong. To paraphrase Paul Hewitt, Science is about Cosmic Order. Science can only attempt to answer How? or What? questions. Science is a very powerful tool, but can only work with Scientific Hypotheses, in other words they must be testable. Science works in the realm of the physical observable and measurable Universe. Religion/faith on the other is about Cosmic Purpose and can ask and attempt to answer Why? questions. Also philosophy and logic can also attempt questions of purpose, science cannot.
Science and Religion are very important human endeavors and are different, but compatible human endeavors. They are two different tools that ask two different kinds of questions. Can Science find physical evidence that issues of faith and God might be true? Sure. Can Religion and books of faith also in turn demonstrate concepts and principles of Science? Sure. They can at times support one another. Do they always? No.
Do we know all there is to know in the scientific realm about the Universe around us? Hardly. Does the World of Religion and faith know all there is to know about God and Creation? Hardly. We struggle to look through a dark pane of glass whether on the science side or the religion side of human endeavor, to know.
Don’t think for a moment that you have to be an Atheist to be a good scientist. Many great men and women of science have been very devout in their faith and religion: Aristotle, Copernicus, Galileo, Tycho Brahe, Keppler, Newton, perhaps Einstein a little even. The list could go on and on. There are many good books just on this topic that prove it. So, if you are going to attempt to throw out religion and faith and God out with the bath water altogether, then you would eliminate what made these great scientists who they really are. We have a science logic side to us, and we have a faith and worship side to us that wants to know and be with God. To deny this makes you less than complete. Something is missing.
Now from this foundation we can then look at the Evolution vs. Creation hypotheses and theories . . .
I’ll come back to it when I have more time.
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WBraun
climber
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What is "superior" ?
What is "higher" ?
And what is the soul?
I'm not here to hold your hand, you're a big boy now, you do your work.
I've simply stated some facts which you will interpret according to your intelligence.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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"To have or show realization, something must have or show concrete existence. Concrete existence (by definition) cannot be shown to occur without either having interactions or invoking a "universal observer." The former is readily accessible to any living being, the latter is unnecessary and unparsimonious."
I think it's in this first sentense that you lose your way here, Wescrist. Basically you're restating the basic supposition of materialism, that some "thing," to be real, must me made of material, must be "concrete," or materially based. The problem, of course, is that, on one hand, awareness itself is not a thing (you use the eyeball as a reference, but an eyeball is a thing), while the content of awareness is comprised of things. You cannot describe awareness in terms of "qualities" because qualities all have aspects of things, or content. Awareness itself has no beginning or end, is unborn. Not so all that arises IN awareness.
Interesting that you can take the opposite tack and say that awareness as a "no-thing" is the only true reality and that isolating material from the matrix of awareness is a false abstraction. It ususally works the other way - folks claiming that "awareness" discussed sans content is a false abstraction, and that material is the only "thing" that is real. "No-things" such as awarness are merely epiphenomenons, secondary phenomenon that occurs alongside or in parallel to the primary phenomenon of atomic material activity.
Now the paradox is that the opposite is also true - that awareness IS matter. It is just this paradox that people try and overcome with a rigid materialism. We so much want life to be measurable, graspable, knowable.
True, neurofeedback is a type of biofeedback, but it is never refered to as biofeedback. It's a very interesting field full of paradoxes.
JL
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Why is it so imperative that we know exactly how old everything is? (Me included, hehehe) What will age verification accomplish ? Is it beneficial in helping humans that need it ? Does it help to find God ? Is it a crucial factor in determining other scientific data that might produce something specific and great for this planet, mankind and the galaxies beyond?
Or do the arguments keep one from focusing on things much more important. Like life and death and helping the bro ? Jess asking.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Note to Flanders (and anyone else providing creationist "literature"), When a creationist quotes a well known evolutionist, you can be almost certain he is quote-mining.
Typically, the evolutionist will employ some rhetorical device where she questions a part of evolutionary theory and then goes on to provide an answer. Something like, "To many the eye is too comlpex to have evolved, but in fact eye evolution is well understood". The creationist will then quote the first bit of the writer's quote, but leave out the last bit. Ellipses (the ... between different parts of the quote) are also employed to mangle the writers original meaning. This kind of writing on the part of Johnson and many other creationist writers can only be characterized as lying to make a point. Good xtians lying to save souls. Nice.
The paragraph you provided from Phillip E. Johnson's where he quotes Gould is a classic case of this. Go here to read what Gould really wrote. [url=" http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/mine/part3.html"] http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/mine/part3.html[/url] Scroll down to quote #3.12 .
In the future please consider reading the original source before providing such quotes. If you can't find the original material, the Quote Mine Project is a great place to start.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Lynne, Why is it so imperative that we know exactly how old everything is? (Me included, hehehe) What will age verification accomplish ? Is it beneficial in helping humans that need it ? Does it help to find God ? Is it a crucial factor in determining other scientific data that might produce something specific and great for this planet, mankind and the galaxies beyond?
You're joking, right?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Actually, No.
Edit: When I see many people, including babies and children along with their parents hungry and starving to death without enough warmth or water I wonder how important great debates are. Just give me a 1-10 why age dating is so significant in the big scheme of things.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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khanom, In defense of WBraun....I didn't get him at first. After reading quite a few of his posts I think I see where he is coming from and often he has some valid points.
People use words and vocabulary diffently. I just met someone a few months ago and it took me awhile to really understand exactly what they were saying. Now I'm pretty much on the same page with them and we actually have some great discussions. lynnie
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Pay no attention to those men behind the curtain.........
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Lynne, I recently had that same experience.
Turned out she was Belgian.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Lynne, You may not see the value of this, but it is central to our understanding of many things and not just anthropology or evolution. Having an accurate understanding of where a data point rests in time is incredibly valuable. Long range weather patterns (measured in centuries or more) is one area to consider. By knowing when things happened in the past, we can better understand when things may happen in the future. Your remark reminds me of the people who say, "Why bother going into space?" without fully understanding the benefits such research and exploration has given humanity. Consider that our understanding of evolution has led to an even greater understanding of human diseases. Ever gotten a flu shot?
Science, the how, where, what and WHEN, of things is probably the best way humankind has discovered for, in your words, "life and death and helping the bro."
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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bc, thank you for your thoughtful response. I will have to give it more than a cursory thought and respond more fully later. But I have always supported space exploration. It is a concrete, hands on attempt at learning more about our great universe.
Dating and weather patterns.....not quite so concrete as there are so many variables. I wonder if we will ever really be able to understand and predict the big picture in weather patterns?
Flanders, :D
cintune, if I get what you're saying.....very funny !!! Even if I don't...it's funny. hehehe
Oh Dr. F, we love to love each other right ?
Scientists seek the truth and true scientists never throw out other's theories as folly. Truth seeks not only the truth but allow others to seek it also.
I was simply stating that we only have one short life on this planet and we need to prioritize ...... death and famine, carbon dating all important, but some are a bit higher on the scale of importance, imho.
Sometime you and your bride need to go to facelift. We have some really great discussions and music around the campfire. Peace always, Lynnie
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Lynne:
Humans have always sought to understand our world, each other, and our place in the Universe. All advances in science we enjoy and take for granted today are a direct result of that quest for understanding. From the micro-cosmic (understanding biology, genes, dna, molecules, atoms, particles, etc) to the macro-cosmic (human development, the earth, solar system, newtonian physics, the universe, etc) all these field seek answers to questions and, in the greater scheme of things, are all connected.
It is always perplexing to me how some people will reject the scientific method or the quest for knowledge one moment and the next extol the virtues of a new medicine, vacine, computer, or just a plain old convenience. Are they oblivious to these contradictions. Or don't they really understand that one would not exist without the other?
So why does the age of something matter?
If you don't seek to answer such a question, you can't really understand it or how nature works.
Would you ask: "why does American (or World) history matter?"
Does mathematics matter?
Does anything matter?
We can choose to live in the artifice that nothing really matters but what is of immediate concern to us. That construct is a lie. Everything is connected to everything else. There is no means of parsing out the elements you deem unimportant to your world view from all the rest of the messy reality that is our existence.
Go ahead, leave the big question of "what is the meaning of life?" for religion to answer if you like. But in finding meaning through a belief in God doesn't mean you have to reject science's attempts to answer the other questions -- we can and should probe for answers to those.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Didn't Fred Beckey date an "Ardi" BITD?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Eloquently spoken RV. I appreciate all you articulated and agree with most. Thanks for your time in setting forth an understandable platform. Dan loved science and math and he was a gifted teacher to this gal.
I guess the bottom line concern I have, and as I am not as articulate as you, it may not have come across clearly....while the right and the left, "Christian" and non Christian argue about a number 6,000, 600,000, 60 million or billion years, there are people who one could not even describe as living their lives, even survival is a word that does not even begin to describe the hell of each day. Debate, help, or both.....?
Several people I've lost in life over the past two years have really made me ponder much..... It's changed my life and my priorities. Life above all is precious.
imho, lynne
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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I love all you guy's, I used think there IS no God myself, but I know you don't need to be a cook to tell if the food tastes good, or know how a car works to drive, how a TV works to watch a show, how a Friend is made to use it in a crack, or how God made everything? If that's your thing cool, but I think the body looks better without seeing all the parts on the inside!
If a person loses a arm or a leg they are still a whole being on the inside, in fact most people with blindness hear way better, etc.!
Our minds are more then the info we put if it, we have reason that can grasp a bigger picture, and a heart that can love and be loved and see beauty. We're way more than seven pounds of matter! God is SOOOO
MUCH BETTER then we can ask or think, or do!!!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Lynne, yep, that was a joke. Can't be too serious about this stuff, it really becomes no fun at all.
But to be serious, the age of the earth as an isolated factoid obviously isn't going to save anyone's life or feed the hungry. But as part of a cohesive fabric of scientifically-arrived-at information, it is related to things that actually can and do benefit humanity in vast ways. Science doesn't have all the answers, but it never pretended to in the first place. That's religion's game. "Seek no further, it's all in this here book, and if it isn't it's not important." That just doesn't stand anymore, even though it was all we had for thousands of years.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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cintune and all, gosh this page alone so illustrates why I love this Taco Stand. Solid answers to questions, thought provoking responses that make me think and rethink and test and examine and look up and explore.
Billy Graham once said, "If two people agree on everything one of them is unneccessary." (he's the only one I know that said something like that, but if you guys know a non Billy G. type that has a similar thought I'd like to hear it.)
Thoughts, knowledge, wisdom, philosophies, are all meant to be shared I think. One big puzzle is life and all that it entails. One small puzzle piece offered up by an obscure thinker might just complete a large part of this fantastic puzzle.
That's why I listen and weigh what you all have to say. What a great day. lynne
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Amazing to me (well, not anymore) the lengths that people will go to to discredit Christianity, Judaism and embrace religions or beliefs of Buddhism and Hinduism. And yet there is no mention of Islam which is very similar to Judaism and Christianity.
It seems the Semitic faiths are the target (except Islam because it's politically incorrect for a liberal to diss Islam).
These attacks on ALL people of faith are really tiresome. On one hand you criticize proselytizers and then, you the irreligious, constantly assualt the faith of others. WTF???
I disagree with proselytizing and I would hope you Atheist f*#ks would shut up.
Has it ever occurred to you that it's not illogical to conclude that evolution AND creation are both possible? That it's not one or the other necessarily?
Bah!!!!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Only if you pretend that creation was something different from what religions say it was in their own words.
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pyrosis
Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Woah, this might be the most interesting thread I've read in a while.
weschrist writes
"Awareness is the perception of an entities interaction with its environment (i.e. OTHER matter). Matter requires an interaction to be "aware" of anything. Two material objects are not "aware" unless they are interacting. A billiard ball isolated in space is "aware" of only distant gravitational forces and electromagnetic radiation."
I was under the impression that matter did not in fact have a concrete existence outside of its interaction with other matter. An electron being the easiest example, exists as a wave function, delocalized in position, until the instant at which it interacts with another particle. After the instant of the interaction, the electron again exists only as a wave function. The electron is nothing but the probability of an interaction occurring with another electron, which is also nothing but the probability of an interaction.
All matter behaves in this manner.
Or do I misunderstand quantum mechanics?
I still have the hunch that physics holds the answer, somewhere, to consciousness itself.
-Tavis
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Cintune, this is a complex subject. My only point is that to conclude all people who believe in a God are somehow stupid because they're religious AND reject science AND evolution is ridiculous. It's a gross generalization.
There is no doubt that evolution occurs in God's creation. Maybe it's an 'inherent intelligence' in the DNA to adapt. A perfect design that overcomes and adapts.
The problem I have is with the people who assume if you're religious, you reject science overall. You reject evolution.
It's bullshit and it's a weak argument.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Good thoughts Bluering. Peace, Lynnie
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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I don't want to put words in God's mouth but He said how he did it in the Bible, if it said something else I would believe that!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Hey Tavis-
I also think qauantum mechanics tells us a lot about consciousness and attention and so forth.
When I say that awareness is a "no-thing" that inherently has no content ("thingness" or material), I'm refering to awarness as a wave function. When I say that the opposite is true, that that awareness also IS a thing, I'm saying that when awareness latches onto content, onto sensations, feelings, thoughts and so forth, awareness becomes a "concrete" thing just as a wave becomes concrete when it encounters (fill in the blank).
The problem with rigid materialists is that they don't want to factor in the wave function part of the equation, or if they have to, the wave or pure energy aspect will be posited as an aspect or trait of concrete matter. They are forced into this position by a reductionism that claims everything, including the wave forms themselves, are created or produced by concrete material.
The one thing you will never hear a materialist say is that material and reality as we know it is created by non-local,immaterial wave functions. Even the non-local, immaterial wave function will be posited in terms of inherent potentiality with concrete and defineable (measurable) charicteristics. Language is not structured to discuss what is not "there" in a material sense - i.e., pure energy, wave functions, bare awareness or "emptiness." These will always be taken up as actual potentialities, or "things."
JL
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Then why get mad if other people steal or hurt you? Survival of the...
Because it's wrong! If you do that to others you did it to God, and God commanded us not to do those things and more.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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I was simply stating that we only have one short life on this planet and we need to prioritize ...... death and famine, carbon dating all important, but some are a bit higher on the scale of importance, imho.
Yes and no and it depends.
Yes, life and death questions are more important than a silly internet argument. But there's more to it than that.
To start with, it's the growth of knowledge, of an understanding of the world we live in which is, to me, the primary thing that makes humans special among all species on Earth. That each generation learns from the previous one. That we have a better and better understanding of reality, a growing consciousness, you might say. Without that, we, as humans, are nothing special, IMO.
Some people put significant energy in their lives into helping others in one way or another - doctors, philanthropists, volunteers. Without a doubt, they're doing something important and worthwhile.
But IMO (and, as always, YMMV) those who forward the growing understanding of our universe - those who devote their energy to learn what we know, refine it, add their own insight and observations, and write it down in detail so that it may be passed on to the next generation - those people are also doing very great and important work. It's the great unending work of our species.
But that work is painstaking, and requires as much precision as possible. It's like putting a jigsaw puzzle together - if the pieces are not shaped quite right, they just won't fit. So, from my perspective, does it matter very much if a sediment layer a fossil is found in is 3.6 million or 3.7 million years old? Of course not! And surely for a person dying of malaria, they couldn't care less!
And yet, from a larger perspective, it's vitally important. Because the work marches forward in infinitesmal increments. In on little detail after another. And in order for the researcher to learn anything useful, they need to get it right. And that's import, IMO, for all of us.
GO
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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If I read the reports of Ardi correctly (not a given) it seems the idea is being advanced that both the apes and man descended from Ardi. Then if you say Ardi is more human than ape, you come away saying the apes descended from man.
Previously it was thought we descended from a common ancestor which is quite different.
JStan - I'm pretty sure you have somewhat misunderstood the articles. It is still thought that there was a common ancestor to humans and our closest living cousins (the other great apes - gorillas, chimps, and bonobos) lived around 7 million years ago. So Ardi is very solidly after the big schism, and on our side of the tree. But she's the closest we've seen on our side to the most recent common ancestor.
Sadly, our cousins on the other side of the divide seem to have managed to avoid drowning and getting embedded in river sediments - so very few fossils on their side. Too bad.
GO
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I think some of these issues having to do with mind seen pardoxical if you do not separate what we perceive from what we actually sense. It comes down to the way the brain functions and the complexity of the "program" that runs to use what we sense.
We can certainly imagine things that are not real. We do not confuse our imagining from what is reality. I can imagine, and write convincingly about super-luminal space travel, I can calculate what it would take to realize such travel and conclude that there is no real way of achieving it, I might conclude it is physically impossible. Similarly, I can imagine the existence of a supernatural being, of god, or gods, or "the force," whatever. My imagining of that does not make it real, the thought of it is real, however.
Similarly, things that I perceive may not actually be sensed. I was taught in junior high school biology that the brain cleverly "fills in" the pattern of a brick wall, so that it "looks" continuous. In fact no such thing happens. Instead we have a mental "model" of the brick wall that tells us it is continuous, the blind spot in our eyes prevents us from actually sensing that continuity, and our brain doesn't do any complicated operation of "filling in" the blind spot.
This model is a part of evolutionary adaptation, it is a part of our behavior that has a positive selection outcome. When you learn that a polar bear hunts seals in ice caves formed by heaves in the sea ice it seems remarkable, but actually the bear also has a model of reality, it is "aware" of certain behaviors of its prey and can act on a rather abstract concept.
Another feature is the way it's all patched together, different parts of the brain, and the development of the model of reality have come at different times, and interact in a discontinuous manner. This leads to various perceptual "irregularities" that can be interpreted as being much more than they are... dreaming for instance. Another interesting one is the sensation of deja vu, which is really nothing more, I believe, than the sensation that time is discontinuous, our internal model tells us that time is continuous. But our sensation of time is different than the reality of time. Oliver Sachs describes an interesting account with a patient in his book Awakening in which the almost motionless person rubs his nose, but taking the entire day... sorta in "slow motion." While recovering a sense of normality through the administration of dopamine, the patient is asked by Sachs about it, the patient did not perceive that the act of rubbing his nose was any different than any of us experience.
I have learned to be very wary of my senses and my world model as a physicist. I know that we perceive things very different than what they actually are... the mind, consciousness, all that, is marvelous and complex, but it does not, in my opinion, require any special explanation. There is a mechanistic explanation of it, but understanding it is the same as trying to understand how a computer works by looking at the program results...
As I have mentioned before, the idea of god is a real thing independent of the actual existence of god. It is somewhat a moot point to argue if god actually exists, physically exists, as long as the idea of god exists and can motivate action. These mental constructions are no less powerful than the real thing, and in some ways they are more powerful because they transcend the need to adhere to physical law. I don't find it at all odd that these thoughts could be produced by a material object, the brain... there is nothing which precludes this possibility, and it is totally consistent with what we know about physical reality.
Its all in your mind.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Ed wrote:
"The mind, consciousness, all that, is marvelous and complex, but it does not, in my opinion, require any special explanation. There is a mechanistic explanation of it, but understanding it is the same as trying to understand how a computer works by looking at the program results..."
This strikes me as remarkable, Ed. By "special explanation" I take it you mean anything that is not stricly mechanical or materialistic.
And yet are we to understand mater and quantum mechanics with no reference to non-local wave function, or should we just stick with measurable datum (material)and call it good?
JL
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jstan
climber
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GoClimb:
When I read the article I came away with the impression, subjective though it may be, that Ardi was more human than ape. Jan has not finished researching the publications but when I read her post on the matter, correct or not, it at least seems she comes down on the same side.
It will take years to sort out where Ardi falls in the lineage. I made the conditional statement I did simply to point out the potential is there for a drastic change in the way we view things. That kind of excitement will drive research for decades or until we find a definitive fossil.
EDIT:
Actually on second thought, I need to be more realistic. It is an error to think that "Progress" proceeds monatonically. In fact what probably happens is one kind of creature steps into a black box, there is a long period of two mixed populations including what can be seen as both improvement and degradation, until two different creatures step out of the black box. Finding a fossil is an discrete event. Evolution is not nearly so pretty.
EDIT2:
If I may be so bold as to suggest the change of a word in Ed's post below.
IS
I believe in the understandability of the universe because of the success so far.
Might be:
I am comfortable as to understandability of the universe because of the success so far.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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the "non locality" of quantum mechanics is completely testable and understandable
it might seem strange to you, but it is not strange, it is observed and calculable.
I don't understand everything, but I believe that these things are understandable without evoking non-physical processes. I believe in the understandability of the universe because of the success so far.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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the "non locality" of quantum mechanics is completely testable and understandable it might seem strange to you, but it is not strange, it is observed and calculable.
I'm not following this, Ed. My understanding, poor as it may be, is that when you refer to "it" as in "it is observed and calculable," you are refering to some form of material manifistation, some basic stuff that is measurable. But what is the actual nature of this stuff?
Tavis mentioned that "matter does not in fact have a concrete existence outside of its interaction with other matter. An electron being the easiest example, exists as a wave function, delocalized in position, until the instant at which it interacts with another particle. After the instant of the interaction, the electron again exists only as a wave function. The electron is nothing but the probability of an interaction occurring with another electron, which is also nothing but the probability of an interaction."
Now "observed and calculable" surely refers to the concrete form of matter, but what about the flip side, re the wave function? What "is" the wave function?
What I'm driving at here is that you can never understand consciouness without understanding that all content has no independent existence, that every "thing" is as much "there" (matter, measurable, predictable, "completely testable") as not there (emptiness). Awareness is itself totally devoid of content (matter, forms, measurable stuff), but without experientially getting this it all sound like bullshhit.
Althogh I never do this, to those interested, perhaps a short bit from Ken Wilber, and another by Gempo (a Zen Roshi and former All American Water Polo player) will stir your curiosity. I'm not a huge Wilber fan but his points are well taken.
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoID=802205265#
http://www.livestream.com/bigmindtv?referrer=mogulus
JL
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"Do you fundamentalists remember the reason for and responsibilities of free will?"
Yes, You can chose to except God's Son Jesus saving grace, or not?
God makes it very clear that He accepts Jesus in are place when you put your trust in Him and to Him every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess that He is Lord!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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I hope everyone understands there is a wide spectrum in between from No God and Evolution, to God and only literally 6 days of Creation.
There is Theistic Evolution. God created and he did so through Evolution and 15 Billion years since the Big Bang of Creation. God, the good book, and Science agree.
I would really like to get into this but it is complex and takes a great deal of time to explain. I will let PhD Gerald L. Schroeder explain:
2 Important books:
Genesis and the Big Bang: The Discovery Of Harmony Between Modern Science And The Bible (Paperback)
http://www.amazon.com/reader/0553354132?_encoding=UTF8&ref_=sib%5Fdp%5Fpt#reader
The Science of God: The Convergence of Scientific and Biblical Wisdom (Paperback)
http://www.amazon.com/Science-God-Convergence-Scientific-Biblical/dp/1439129584/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254833026&sr=8-1#noop
Here is a audio lecture/discussion you can listen to for free by Gerald Schroeder:
Genesis & The Big Bang Theory
http://www.simpletoremember.com/media/a/dr-gerald-schroeder-genesis-and-the-big-bang/#
Notes on this lecture:
http://www.torahfusion.com/schroeder-thebigbang
"Evening and morning - Day 1
Doesn't mean sunset and sunrise since the sun was created on Day 4
Ereb is Hebrew word for evening
Real meaning is that there is disorder - blurry (evening to morning - chaos to order)
Reminds me of prophecy (seeing through a glass dimly)
Tells us that Time is created"
In Genesis, "evening and morning were the first day," refers to from chaos to order were the first day (period of time), and so it goes through all the "days" of creation. So it refers to a very long period of time not a day on Earth. It is indicating a long period of time from chaos/disorder to order, which by the way is the opposite of entropy. So this requires energy input and work. Who did this? God.
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tdk
climber
puhoynix
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Of course God could have used 15 billion years of evolution to get us where we are - he's God, he can do whatever he wants.
But 15 billion years of random mutation and natural selection means DEATH for untold numbers of organisms, plants and animals that weren't fit enough to survive the long climb up from the mud. This doesn't quite fit with the character of a God who describes himself as a God of LIFE and who looked on his creation and proclaimed it "very good".
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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There is Theistic Evolution. God created and he did so through Evolution and 15 Billion years since the Big Bang of Creation. God, the good book, and Science agree.
Perhaps agreement in a figurative sense. I understand the current popular approximation for the age of the universe is 13.7 billion years. A few years ago astronomers were claiming the oldest stars were 20 billion years old and the cosmic background radiation suggested the universe was about 16 billion years old.
The argument about the earth being created in six days really didn't start until the word yom in the Hebrew Genesis creation account was translated into "day" in the english translations. Yom
(in the original Hebrew) can mean a long indeterminate epoch of time, sunrise to sunset OR a 24 hour day. Early Catholic fathers believed the yom in the Genesis creation represented long periods of time. But the later translation, of yom into "day" in english (and some other languages) gave biblical literalists justification for the six day creation myth.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Radical said: But it is a fallacy to think we ever lost anything. We were probably never the climbers that orangutans, spider monkeys, etc are now.
Saying we never lost anything as climbers is clearly ridiculous. Ardi (remember the subject of this thread?) would have outclimbed any one of us with one hand tied behind her back.
At least as far as free climbing goes. I think humans are the best aid climbers ever, if that's any consolation.
GO
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Ed - I agree entirely with your concept of mind, and always appreciate how lucid yours is in explaining the matter!
Here's the thing that has always struck me...
As humans, we have inherited a very complex pattern recognition software developed over literally billions of years of evolution. It allows creatures to sort through huge amounts of information, come to conclusions about their environment, and make good predictions about how to interact with that environment. It works unbelievably well (better than anything we've been able to design for robots). Then, on top of that, humans added something new: they developed the ability see those patterns where they are not actually there.
On the face of it, this sounds ludicrous, as if I'm saying that humans developed *insanity*. But that's not it at all. What humans developed is *creativity*. An ability to take what they "know" and project it in other directions. Things like imagining the future, or reminiscing about the past, or creating art - these are all ways of visualizing things that do not temporally exist. And while it is at the root of intelligence, it is a skill that comes with a heavy cost.
Pining for what could have been or imagining a future that will never be - these serve no actual benefit for the organism. Then there are any number of delusions, many of which afflict the perfectly healthy mind. And many more serious conditions of the mind probably stem from minor bugs in the software.
And then there are those things which can be imagined, but cannot be disproven. As we know, these can have an amazingly large affect on humanity.
All this is an inevitable result of the software that was handed down to us, with some minor tweaks we added on.
GO
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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GoClimb:
When I read the article I came away with the impression, subjective though it may be, that Ardi was more human than ape. Jan has not finished researching the publications but when I read her post on the matter, correct or not, it at least seems she comes down on the same side.
Hmm... I'm not sure exactly what you mean. My understanding is that the great apes include humans, gorillas, chimps, and orangutans. In this graphic, they (we) are everything in the family (hilighted in yellow) hominidae.
What is referred to as the most recent common ancestor (sometimes also called the "missing link") is the ancestor between humans and our closest living relative, the chimpanzee. Where Ardi fits is on the human side, but a million years closer to that MRCA than Lucy.
Actually on second thought, I need to be more realistic. It is an error to think that "Progress" proceeds monatonically. In fact what probably happens is one kind of creature steps into a black box, there is a long period of two mixed populations including what can be seen as both improvement and degradation, until two different creatures step out of the black box. Finding a fossil is an discrete event. Evolution is not nearly so pretty.
Indeed! In fact, at any given time, there are probably lots of variations in a population. As it thrives, the number of variations almost certainly grows. Then some external "forcing" comes along which favors one or two of those variations, and kills off many of the others. Unfortunately, fossils are relatively rare, so you just wind up with little snapshots in time.
GO
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jstan
climber
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"The argument about the earth being created in six days really didn't start until the word
yom in the Hebrew Genesis creation account was translated into "day" in the english
translations. Yom (in the original Hebrew) can mean a long indeterminate epoch of time,
sunrise to sunset OR a 24 hour day."
Jennie
I think Jennie has hit on the nub of it. We are working with words here, some of them
translated and "interpretted" many times over thousands of years. The only thing we should
take literally in such a document should be the "intent." The intent that comes through is
that we are well served by treating each other well and by supporting each other.
The very saddest part of this is that taking the document literally has worked mightily to
obscure in people's minds what the intent was. If we could, for a moment, put that
document aside and each person decide for themselves how they held themselves relative to
the intent and what they would do about it
we would all benefit.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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TDK,
(You probably don't have any faith in any of what I'm about to say, and you're going to think "Man you are nuts," but I've been called worse. So read it as a "myth" if you will. So here goes . . .)
Yes, but then we haven't talked here about the creation of the heavenly hosts, Angels and other Godly creatures (and there are many different heavenly creatures). The Genesis account doesn't specificlly call them out and say when they were created. Other parts of the Bible do. And it obviously happened way before Adam ever showed up on the scene since Lucifer, the father of all Fallen Angels was on the scene to fool Eve 1st, and then Adam into rebellion against God.
The heavenly hosts could have been created from near the beginning (billions of years ago) or perhaps just a few million years prior to Adam and Eve's arrival, we do not know. But we do know that Lucifer who was one of the most beloved Angels of God, took a wrong turn and rebelled against God, and at that very moment (and took at least a third of the Angels with him), God's creation which he formed "Good" and he was very pleased with, in turn went south real quick for the worst and, decay, death, destruction, and rebellion throughout creation began.
You have to read the book of Enoch to really know the seriously wrong influence that Fallen Angels have had on modern man from the time of Adam and Eve on-ward. We were taught War, Astrology, the Occult and many other secret things that God did not want us to know and knew we couldn't handle. It would be our ruin, and sure enough here we are Mankind, in literal ruins.
Jesus said as in the days of Noah, so shall be the last days. In the days of Noah, prior to the mass destruction, flooding, and judgement from God, Sons of God (Fallen Angels) were marrying and having children with Daughters of Man. Their off-spring were Nephalim, part Fallen Angel and part Man (the worst of both). They devistated the world and were very intelligent, powerful, evil, and even acquired a taste for the flesh of man. That is why God had to bring an end to it all except those who had a pure human mankind only blood-line seperate from the Fallen Angels. He had to wipe them out and he did. Yet it says some remained. He didn't get them all. Perhaps some escaped off world? We don't know.
In the last days we are seeing something similiar. The Fallen Angels, who lie and deceive, and can appear to be Angels of Light (to deceive is in their very nature) are masquerading as friendly Space Aliens. Abductions do occur. Many governments around the world, with the exception of the USA, are releasing there files on the UFO phenomenon on official websites and now making public statements openly: France, Canada, UK, Japan, Russia, Mexico, Brazil, etc. (When I get home I can link these resouces here later.)
One of the end games is for these Alien entities to convince mankind that they are indeed Man's creator and have been involved in Man's developement throughout his evolutionary history. They will attempt to take full credit for creating man and thereby taking the place of God. It is a lie to the highest and darkest order. Yes, these "Aliens" they have influenced us throughout our history, even taught us, and have been a part of our developement, they are indeed a part of our history, but not for the good. They have taught us to rebel against God and worship other Gods, and/or to reject God all together.
Nothing is new under the Sun.
As time goes on more and more people will wake up to what is really happening. That is why God told us before it does happen so we will know he is telling us the truth and that he loves and cares for us. He gave us a redemption plan --- his beloved Son and our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ. He does not want us to be fooled and lost. We have been caught in the middle of a spiritual battle for a long, long time, and things are coming to a climax rapidly.
Here are some of the links:
Frances CNES - GEIPAN:
http://www.cnes-geipan.fr/accueil.html
UFO disclosure: What went wrong in France?
http://www.allnewsweb.com/page6936937.php
Newly released UFO files from the UK government:
http://ufos.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
Canada's UFOs: The Search for the Unknown
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/ufo/index-e.html
Japanese Government Spokesman: UFOs Definitely Real
http://www.japanprobe.com/?p=3436
Vatican Official Declares Extraterrestrial Contact Is Real
http://www.ufodigest.com/balducci.html
'Balducci provided an analysis of extraterrestrials that he feels is consistent with the Catholic Church's understanding of theology. Monsignor Balducci emphasizes that extraterrestrial encounters "are NOT demonic, they are NOT due to psychological impairment, they are NOT a case of entity attachment, but these encounters deserve to be studied carefully." Since Monsignor Balducci is a demonology expert and consultant to the Vatican , and since the Catholic Church has historically demonized many new phenomena that were poorly understood, his stating that the Church does not censure these encounters is all the more remarkable.'
I beg to differ. All the evidence points to ETs/Aliens being Fallen Angels, Nephalim, and/or demonic. We have to test the spirits.
How to Test the Spirits
http://www.creationists.org/how-to-test-the-spirits.html
Clinton White House Chief John Podesta on UFO disclosure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2Sz-MgoFos
Barack Obama UFO Disclosure Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gO4aYKVkB8
Ufo Disclosure Edgar Mitchell CNN Obama Administration April 21 2009.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4x-EGrMW_I&NR=1
Perhaps disclosure is really happening right now, but not so much in the MSM in your face, loud, sort of way. Perhaps a more quiet subtle way in the hopes of avoiding a "War of the Worlds" panic. People need to wake up, seek God, and ask Jesus to come into their hearts and receive salvation under the blood and grace of our Lord and Saviour. It is gonna be a very bumpy, scary ride eventually. You have to be ready.
Considering the allegiance and the father of Fallen Angels, Nephalim, Demons, and Aliens is Lucifer himself . . .
Just say "No" to Aliens. (Although I will say "yes" to their clean alternative energy resources -- they are indeed very intelligent but evil)
Alien Resistance:
http://www.alienresistance.net/stw.html
http://www.freestickers.net/
http://www.alienresistance.org/
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Pining for what could have been or imagining a future that will never be - these serve no actual benefit for the organism.
Some of the research cited above challenges this assumption. By pining together as a group for a wholly imaginary, insane future, we banded together on a level way beyond natural selection, making greater the chances for individual survival. Religion was important for social cohesion when the world was a much bigger and more diverse place. The frightening thing is that Fundamentalist Christianity's best hope is the apocalypse it dreams of, because then we as individuals will need that kind of small-group cohesion again. Just like the bad old days.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Navblk4 wrote: Hominids linked to humans was not proven as of 1999, and the latest news is also probably theory.
I'm afraid I have no idea what you mean by this. Humans are hominids. Hominid is pretty much defined as the group to which humans belong. And what do you mean that "the latest news is ... theory"? By "theory" do you mean that maybe the news about Ardi was made up?
Sorry if I'm being dense.
GO
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MH2
climber
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Very nice to see such a variety of comment.
There was a researcher at U. of Washington in Seattle. Eric Luschei? He studied the vestibular system in chimps. In publications when he diagrammed his experimental apparatus the face of the monkey showed a distinct resemblance to the author.
He said he thought that scientists as individuals tended to be on a journey, either downward toward the molecule or upward toward the soul.
As an aspiration I would favor WBraun's view.
However, the real metaphor here is the blind men and the elephant.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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From memory within this book
hominids I remember being as the earliest alleged species attempting to be
linked to homo sapiens. Admittedly by over 1 dozen doctors in various
sciences whom wrote this book the alleged earliest link to homo sapiens
has not been proven without doubt.
??? Hominid is not a species. Here ya go dude: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=hominid
GO
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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For Klimmer and other Christian apologists (if you don't mind me using that term) - why even bother with the Bible? Although I am an atheist, I can certainly understand someone believing in God, but I can't understand people giving so much credence to these old texts. The Bible is known to be written and edited by various men at various times. Most of it was written in the Bronze Age - when about 1 percent of the population could read and write, but at the same time, after homo sapiens had already been around for around 200,000 years or so. There is not a shred of evidence that a supernatural being had anything to do with the content. Most Christians have learned to cherry pick the good parts and interpret the bad parts as metaphor (like stoning adulterers and non-believers, etc.). Why even bother with trying to reconcile Genesis with science. It's absurd. It's even worse for Muslims and the Koran. If you want to reconcile belief in God with science, you would be doing yourself a favor to leave out any reference to the Bible or other sacred texts. There are certainly some philosophical stances that at least have some credibility in arguing for a creator God. Trying to reconcile science with the Bible is not one of them.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Bump. Added links to my last thread waaaaaaay up stream.
Hey, I'm used to critism. I hear it all the time. I also know God's ways are not our ways. The good book says . . .
1Cor.1:27 KJV
[27] But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
Now, I could go on, and on, and show more incredible Bible Code to prove the point (to all the doubting Thomases on board here who think it is all fake or made-up). The thing is it is the way God decided to communicate with us. His choice. He can do it. It pleased him to work through man this way. Lucifer tried to stop it from happening at every turn, and still tries, but God's word still got through, still gets through. What is the World's all time best selling book ever, even now? The Holy Bible. It pierces the hearts of man. His word is life to our souls. Just about anyone in the World (not everywhere mind you is this true) who wants a Bible can get one and often for free. Personally, I think it is brilliant the way he did it. I don't understand it all or all his ways, but I'm sticking with the Big Guy Upstairs. I think he knows what he is doing, and he knows what he is talking about.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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World's all time best selling book ever, even now? The Holy Bible.
Might makes right again! What happens if the Koran or the next Harry Potter tops it?
Pretty lame arguement.
Bible Code? Riiiiight.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Klimmer and other fundamentalists-
I think you all need a good course in comparative religion. The Bible is not the only great piece of scripture on this planet, nor does the Judeo Christian tradition have all the best answers in the field of religion - far from it.
As an anthropologist, my own rule of thumb is that an idea which appears in only one holy book or one religion is just a cultural anomaly. If similar ideas appear in multiple traditions from vastly different parts of the world, then probably they represent some universal wisdom. At the least they represent universal human yearnings.
Clearly the passages you are quoting do not inspire universal interest on this forum and therefore do not represent universal human yearnings, though the participation on this thread indicates that many people do have an interest in the interface of science and religion and in religious/spiritual/philosophical ideals. Therefore, if you want to make any headway with this audience, you're going to have to become more universal too. Otherwise, you are only making yourself feel righteous about quoting material for the record to gain points in some game that the rest of us are not playing.
Some of us are interested perhaps in why you feel compelled to base your life on literal interpretations of only one book, but we ourselves are not interested in those literal interpretations. The Buddhists talk about skillful means and the Apostle Paul noted that he altered his message depending on his audience - he did not speak the same way in Athens to the philosophers as he did in Antioch to the believers. I think you would get your point across much better if you did the same.
Just saying........
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Nothing comes close to the Bible.
Your point is what exactly? Just curious why the number of copies sold would make any difference.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Weschrist,
Selective reading on your part.
"800 million[5] to 6.5 billion; note, however, that of the 6.5 billion copies printed and shipped, maybe only a third were actually bought, and the rest are on stock in stores or factories worldwide[6]"
Yes, I can see the Chinese government doing this in attempt to make the numbers the Bible does all on its own without trying.
And I'm not a fundamentalist. I upset Christians and Scientists alike.
BC,
Just the fact that God's plan of getting the word out is working. We don't really have an excuse do we? Heck, you could even take a Gideon's Bible from the hotel/motel room for free if you like ;-))
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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And now for the scientists and philosophers-
I came across an interesting video that should interest both groups while checking out Largo's references to Ken Wilbur. Some of you may have seen it already as it is part of a PBS series on evolution. The title of the 5th in the series is called The Mind's Big Bang.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7000929389205786708&ei=0cvKSuaUNYqUwgOE8PTQCA&q=big+mind&hl=en#
It deals with the mental revolution occurring in early Homo sapiens, probably related to language. Worth watching for the facts, but also because it provokes a lot of interesting questions about cognition, consciousness, and intelligence. Interestingly enough, the 6th and last video which I haven't seen, is entitled "God".
One thing I have observed by living with premodern or recently modern people though, is that they have mental faculties which we have lost. Therefore I am a little uncomfortable with the presumption in a video like this that we always make progress. For example, people living in a pre- electronic situation have much keener senses than we do - they see, hear, and smell more acutely. Illiterate people also have much better memories in my experience, and certainly better auditory memory. They also have better intuition and a keener sense of social nuance as well.
Of course one can say that such faculties no longer serve us because of our superior technology and greater numbers crowded together, and therefore losing them is a positive adaptation. Anthropologists have also been accused of trading in nostalgia for an irretrievable past. Still, I think we've lost something along the way.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Weschrist,
I can see this is a sore spot with you. You really can't count the number of Bibles since there were very few in existance until Martin Luther and the invention of the Gutenberg Press about 1440 AD. I'll let you do the math.
Oh, and AD . . . 'AD actually stands for the Latin phrase "anno domini" which means "in the year of our Lord."'
I know probably another sore subject with you.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Look at Wes,,,,,quoting jesus again. hehehe.
This all makes my head spin. My take. If it works, it works and "just jesus" has worked for me Big Time for the past many years....through literal hell and high water. Nothing else had.
I gave many different philo's a whirl. Didn't even believe in God for awhile. For the short time I was in college I did quite well in philosophy and study of religions. My prof's loved me .... my parents hated me when all 9 of us gathered round the dinner table and I told them about Kant and Eastern religion and the problems with Judeo Christian thought.....it was pretty funny actually.:D Peace, lynne
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Lynne-
I have the greatest respect for someone who happens to settle on their own tradition AFTER exploring the others. You did it with an open mind. No where in the Bible does it say that God or Jesus prefers close minded followers.Of course, one of the great principles in eastern religions anyway, is remaining true to your original root guru - which seems to me what you have done.
Also as I've mentioned before, you show us how it works in your personal life not just in theory but through what you give to the community. That's a whole lot different than just dumping a lot of quotes on us.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Klimmer and Weschrist-
These numbers are meaningless. How many of those Bibles and Little Red Books never got read but were purchased for public consumption - the coffee table or to put on the night stand when grandma visited or displayed during the Cultural Revolution in the hope it would help one stay out of a re-education camp?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Yes, the numbers game is just that. However, it does have a seed of truth to it.
One of my favorite classes in college was World Religions. The instructor was a Buddist/Catholic Monk with a Masters degree. He left to teach college. He was really good. He had a passion for faiths of all kinds. That was a very interesting class with lots of debate among the students and the instructor. Lots of passion but in a good spirit. It was also one of the hardest classes. Lots of writing and the tests were brutal. I can remember him describing much of his own experience as "Smells and Bells."
Weschrist,
Huh?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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OK Klimmer-
I'll bite. How on earth did you get from enjoying a class in comparative religion to your current position? Did you run into a fundamentalist girlfriend on the way? Have a huge trauma in your life that sent you looking for stability?
Meanwhile, a concept that has helped me a lot is the idea that we do better with a spiritual style that suits our personality, the choices being intellect (both theology and science), love and devotion (ranging from liturgy to charismatic), selfless service (endless possibilities including Face Lift), or intuition and mysticism ( contemplative prayer and meditation or charismatic).
The fully enlightened human would be the one who had them all balanced. Sometimes we seek balance by marrying someone who shores up our weaknesses, sometimes we do it on our own, often unskillfully. Intellect and service are left brain activities, emotion and intuition are right brain activities. At least we can hope to do well from one of each. Otherwise our spirituality and personal life are really unbalanced.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin' place
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In other words--equipoise or drug of choice . . .
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jan,
I grew up in a Christian family. Even in my family we all do not see eye to eye on theological matters to this day.
In the Army, and then college, I left my first love with God. Once saved does not mean always saved. That is a fallacy. Your name can be blotted out of the Book of Life. I definately was The Prodigal Son for many years. After getting married, having children and then experiencing how bad it has been politically since 9-11-2001 (a major downer), and knowing I have a responsibility as a husband and father to raise my family in faith, belief, and the love of God (I will be held to account), I asked God if I could come back to his love and would he forgive me for leaving him? He has. God is merciful and true.
If one was to read all my posts here at ST (boring I know) it could be determined when I came back to God. There is always a serious positive change for the better.
Also, the only thing I can thank GWB and the Neocons for, is driving me running back to God, they are that incredibly evil. My peace of mind has returned. No matter what, it will all be OK. I still have to pay attention to what is happening around me in the world, but in the end it will all be OK. I just got to hold onto God's hand and never let go again (figuratively speaking).
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Klimmer, you are on my heart tonight. Peace, lynne
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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It's pretty facinating how these god vs. no god or what god, evolution, creation, what made this place, what makes it work, what makes us work as humans individually, what makes us work together....or not...it's facinating how many posts these threads get.
Must be important to at least a few. Smiles and Peace tonight...lynne
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Klimmer-
Thanks for sharing your journey. I think if we do it right, it is always a journey.
Children though, change the picture a lot. I think your real fun will start when your kids get old enough to rebel in their turn against their background! I had no real religious background and used to resent that I had nothing solid along those lines to rebel against. There's always something for a teenager to resent!
It will be interesting to see how our journeys unfold over the years. Often times when we feel most comfortable and stable is just when the rug is about to be pulled out and we make our greatest leaps forward.
Peace.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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JL, at this point it is semantics. In the English language "awareness" is a noun and "aware" is an adjective that modifies a noun. The modifier cannot simultaneously be that which is modified... just as a force cannot act on itself. But I think understand what you are trying to say and in the past I have experienced brief moments of awareness as "no-thing" which gives rise to and somehow is everything simultaneously. If you haven't read any Alan Watts, I recommend it. He tackles the paradoxes that arise from the English language quite well, I think.
You're starting to get warm there Westcrist, but still no cigar.
Of course what I've driving at has nothing whatsoever to do with language, and thinking that linguistic constructs - which I deal with all day every day - somehow determines the nature of awareness, is to approach the issue bass-akwards. I'm not talking about an Alan Watts concept, nor yet any kind of construct at all. "You" can't experience awareness as "no-thing."
"No-thing" IS the direct experience of awareness, before any content ("you" etc...) enters the infinite field.
But I'm tired and need sleep . . .
JL
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Formerly known as . . . ,
I agree with you to a point.
But when reality starts ticking off one prophecy after another from the good book in these last days and things line up and happen just as the good book says it will, then faith meets the evidence of reality and we will all know. The stage is set right now. No one dissagrees with this that knows the Bible well and what it says concerning the last days. The stage is set like it never has been before in all of history. Jesus told us to watch, be prepared, and to be ready.
Some of us are choosing which side of the fence we want to be on now, before that happens. We are not promised tomorrow. I choose to be with God.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Lynne said;
"I gave many different philo's a whirl".
Wow, sorry I missed that. Or was it from that lost month in Vegas? he he.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Klimmer said After getting married, having children and then experiencing how bad it has been politically since 9-11-2001 (a major downer), and knowing I have a responsibility as a husband and father to raise my family in faith, belief, and the love of God...
On the contrary, I feel strongly that parents do their kids a disservice in indoctrinating them with religion before they can think for themselves. The chance that you would believe in Christianity if you were born in just about any Muslim country is vanishingly small. You would, instead, likely feel just as strongly about Islam.
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Bad Climber
climber
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Klimmer--Puuulease. Are you a big fan of the Left Behind series? This is such a big load of hogwash. Many times in the past, dimmed-brained people have gathered on some hilltop waiting for THE END. Do you bathe your children in this fear, too? End times! End times! Give it a rest. Climb a route, drink a beer. Ah, there's God for you. The All-knowing, All-seeing, All-blessing Suds!
BAd
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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It deals with the mental revolution occurring in early Homo sapiens, probably related to language.
Jan, did you ever read a discussion of this by Julian Jaynes in his book "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind?" It was published in the late 70s and is probably hard to find now, but he had some very interesting ideas. He also dealt with theism, en passant.
David
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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eeyonkee,
As the good book says (paraphrasing), "teach them the ways of the Lord and when they are old they will not depart from them." Many places in the good book talk about our responsibility as parents to our children and to teach them the ways of the Lord. They can always make decisions on their own when they are on their own. They have free-will just like I did. I left. But then I came back. I then knew what to come back to. If I didn't have this upbringing I would still be lost perhaps.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Ghost-
I just read the reviews of the Bicameral Mind and then remembered that I had looked at it a long time ago. Way too speculative based on too little evidence was my impression, particularly since his agenda seems to be so anti God and anti religion. Both my scientific and spiritual training say keep an open mind but my personal tendency always, is to seek the middle ground.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Klimmer. I'd be interested in hearing your response to the second part of my last post. What if you had been born in, say, Saudi Arabia, and your parents had indoctrinated you (as they most certainly would) with the teachings of Islam. Do you believe that you would have somehow found Christianity anyhow (in which case you would be rather special indeed)? Or is belief in Islam just as good as belief in Christianity (and way better than no belief at all)?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Way too speculative based on too little evidence was my impression
Not going to quarrel with you on that. I didn't mean to imply Jaynes' theories were sound, but they sure were interesting. Sometimes that kind of thing -- speculation which you ultimately don't accept -- can be a great mind-opener. And as to soundness, well, Jaynes' ideas were at least more believable than most theism. More fun to read, too.
And anyway, the whole debate is stupid. The world was created when Raven became bored with life in the land of the spirit birds and flew away with a stone in his beak. He dropped the stone into the ocean and the land was formed.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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That question opens up a huge can of worms even in the Christian world.
Where was Jesus for 3 days before rising from the dead? The good book suggests he went somewhere to give all people who came before who died without knowing Christ a very special message of good news. And they had or have the opportunity to accept or reject God's plan of redemption.
What about the people of Earth who have never heard God's good news message? And there are those who go through life and do not hear or are really given a chance or opportunity to accept or reject Jesus. It seems he has a plan for them also to get the word, and perhaps it occurs in the new millineum of peace. This is a contraversial message even in the Christian community. It seems to me though the good book does describe this and God has made a plan.
I cannot imagine in all fairness God condeming to death for eternity, anyone who has not been given a fair opportunity to hear the good news message and then be given the opportunity to either accept it or reject it. Everyone will be given a chance to hear the good news and God's redemption plan somehow. I do not know all the details of how, but he does, and the good book indicates this.
No one will have an excuse. No one will be able to say on that last day that they didn't know or were not given a chance to decide, one way or another. God is fair and he is merciful.
Edit:
Khanom,
I can't even begin to tell you how wrong your post is.
You look at all of Christidom and see all the hypocrasy and the hate and the wars etc. and you think that is an indication of the faith. No you are wrong. They are hypocrites and God calls them out. He knows. There is no fooling God. Those "believers" are only deluding themselves. Jesus said you will know them by the fruit they bare. Jesus gave a good news message to the World, if they reject it that is their business. He didn't strike them dead. He just dusted himself off and went on to the next village or town.
Tell me when did Jesus ever hate, hit, start a war, or punish someone for rejecting his message while he was on Earth? His message is about peace, love, forgiveness, and a return to God. Others ruin his message, but not Jesus, not God.
You have to know and be able to decern the difference.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Philo, Thanks for my first good chuckle of the day. :D
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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I appreciate your honest response, Klimmer. Seems to me, however, that it puts those born in Muslim countries at a HUGE disavantage. Easy enough for you, as a Christian, to say that somehow God will take into account the fact that they have been worshipping the wrong God their entire lives. I guess I would deserve eternal damnation, since I was raised in but untimately rejected Catholicism. It's to those Muslims and people of other faiths that the Plan seems so unfair.
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WBraun
climber
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In the Western world, theologians have been unable to scientifically present the laws of God or, indeed, God Himself, and thus in Western intellectual history a rigid dichotomy has arisen between theology and science.
In an attempt to resolve this conflict, some theologians have agreed to modify their doctrines so that they conform not only to proven scientific facts but even to pseudo scientific speculations and hypotheses, which, though unproven, are hypocritically included within the realm of "science."
On the other hand, some fanatical theologians disregard the scientific method altogether and insist on the veracity of their antiquated, sectarian dogmas.
Thus material science has moved into the destructive realm of gross materialism, while speculative Western philosophy has drifted into the superficiality of relativistic ethics and inconclusive linguistic analysis.
With so many of the best Western minds dedicated to materialistic analysis, naturally much of Western religious life, separated from the intellectual mainstream, is dominated by irrational fanaticism and unauthorized mystic and mystery cults.
Purport 12 canto S.B.
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WBraun
climber
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Satyam, truthfulness, is also diminishing, simply because people do not know what the truth is.
Without knowing the Absolute Truth, one cannot clearly understand the real significance or purpose of life merely by amassing huge quantities of relative or hypothetical truths.
Certainly smrti, memory, is weakening. In former ages human beings possessed superior memory, and they also did not encumber themselves with a terrible bureaucratic and technical society, as we have done. Thus essential information and abiding wisdom were preserved without recourse to writing.
Of course, in the age of Kali things are dramatically different.
No, I did not write this ......
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WBraun
climber
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khanom -- I suppose?
You're just a mental speculator. You don't know sh'it .....
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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What if you woke up one day and simply could not remember any of your beliefs. How do you imagine the direct experience of your life would be - minus at least some of the intellectual constructs?
JL
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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JL,
Unfortunately there are no guarantees for life. I only know of 2 cases of
senility to compare. One died immediately and I assume that is what
he would have wanted prior, the other unfortunately or fortunately
lived for years being senile. I would prefer to die as the 1'st.
BES
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 7, 2009 - 02:03pm PT
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Forget Fattrad,
I support Largo for POTUS.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Jan wrote I came across an interesting video that should interest both groups while checking out Largo's references to Ken Wilbur. Some of you may have seen it already as it is part of a PBS series on evolution. The title of the 5th in the series is called The Mind's Big Bang.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7000929389205786708&ei=0cvKSuaUNYqUwgOE8PTQCA&q=big+mind&hl=en#
Wow!!!! Thanks for sharing that! Fascinating, thought provoking, and relevant to all of the discussions in this thread!
Now a question for you: According to the video, and other things I've read, the "great leap forward" took place sometime around 35,000 years ago. But at that time, H. Sapiens was pretty much distributed around the globe. If there is a genetic component to it, that suggests that an external forcing created the *same* parallel evolution (albeit a very tiny change) more or less simultaneously in thousands of different populations!
Is that the consensus in paleoanthropology? Incredible!
GO
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Eeyonkee wrote . . .
I appreciate your honest response, Klimmer. Seems to me, however, that it puts those born in Muslim countries at a HUGE disavantage. Easy enough for you, as a Christian, to say that somehow God will take into account the fact that they have been worshipping the wrong God their entire lives. I guess I would deserve eternal damnation, since I was raised in but untimately rejected Catholicism. It's to those Muslims and people of other faiths that the Plan seems so unfair.
The Jewish faith, the Islamic faith, and the Christian faith all worship the same God. The God of Abraham. We have more in common than we have differences.
The Jews rejected Jesus because they were waiting for a Messiah who would come as a King, they missed the fact that he would come in humility, and forgiveness, and suffering first and then a second time as a King. Their time is coming. Their eyes will be opened at some time in the future and they will cry for Jesus as a mother cries for her first born. They will accept Jesus and finally know him as their Messiah.
The Islamic faith worships the same God, but through specific steps of faith and instruction to be carried out in a very prescribed methodology of faith and beliefs and that God's prophet is Mohammed. Jesus said I'm am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the father except through me. I imagine (my speculations) God will honor the faith and devotion of true Muslim's who truly abidded by their faith while on Earth, and didn't follow doctrines of hate and violence which are contrary to true Islam. Those who practice such tactics are extemists. When God presents the truth of the matter to true Muslims some day, I don't think they will have an issue with turning from Mohammed and worshipping Jesus when they are shown the truth. Like I said, we have more in common than we have differences. The idea that by commiting suicide and taking out many infidels in the process, and you will be rewarded with so many Virgins in heaven is not gonna happen. Also the idea of worshipping a meteorite in Mecca will have to be abandoned. Now I like meteorites, I collect them, but I know enough not to worship false idols, but instead worship God only.
Christians, we worship the same God, the God of Abraham. We know the way of salvation. We know it is a gift of God by grace, not through works, least any man boast. We know you only come to God through his Son and our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ. That is God's plan of redemption.
I believe, and the good book suggests this is true, that the Jewish/Hebrew faith, Islamic faith, and the Christian faith have more in common than we have differences ultimately. I think true believers will come to know Jesus when given the opportunity by God.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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I'm probably wrong, but I don't think Largo is talking about senility. Perhaps he's posing the question, "what if one day you woke up and you weren't preprogrammed with all your prior belief system ?"
Even if I read it wrong it's still an interesting question and I am pondering it. What would I do ? Who would I be that day of awakening ? Who would I be 10 years from then ? What would I believe ? What would I look to first for discovery ?
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Radical wrote: ""What is referred to as the most recent common ancestor (sometimes also called the "missing link") is the ancestor between humans and our closest living relative, the chimpanzee. Where Ardi fits is on the human side, but a million years closer to that MRCA than Lucy.""
You're missing some of the basic stuff that has been written about even on this thread. But keep studying and re-read some stuff. At any rate, it seems Ardi is over rated, as I have been reading from many leading experts the last week, but it is interesting.
No, I don't think I am. But if there's something mistaken in what I stated above, please point it out. And give me a reference, too, if you have one.
I'm not an expert in the field, but I have done my homework.
Thanks!
GO
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Missing you Riley.....Nice take on the "what if one day you wake up."
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Lynn wrote: "I'm probably wrong, but I don't think Largo is talking about senility. Perhaps he's posing the question, "what if one day you woke up and you weren't preprogrammed with all your prior belief system?"
The interesting thing here is that anyone would equate stepping out of beliefs with senility, implying that opposite, intelligence, is somehow the fruit of beliefs, or at any rate, is hooked up to beliefs in some basic way. This illustrates our addiction to measurable or quantifiable information, and the misconception that we might understand only so long as we have the correct data. But the spiritual and religious articles that get tossed around here are not assailable with data because they are not "things." In the formal sense they are not "real" because, like awareness, they are insubstantial. Perhaps it is likewise true that in wave-form, mater is also not "real," and that it becomes "real" only when it materializes.
Interesante!
JL
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jstan
climber
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Riley:
There is an undefined term loose here. What is your "belief system?"
Is the expectation we have that an object when released in the air will fall toward the center of the earth, part of the "belief system" to which you refer?
You need to be specific.
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Largo ponders: "What if you woke up one day and simply could not remember any of your beliefs. How do you imagine the direct experience of your life would be - minus at least some of the intellectual constructs?"
Hard to say given our current biases and "understandings" BUT, with acknowledged bias here,that being my long held belief that there is a creator I quote Romans 1:20; For since the creation of
the world God's invisible qualities- his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen,
being understood through what has been made..........
This tells me that there is really no such thing as a atheist, only those who choose to ignore
the Truth they have seen clearly presented to us all through what has been made.
Doug
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Grant Meisenholder
Trad climber
CA
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//This tells me that there is really no such thing as a atheist, only those who choose to ignore
the Truth they have seen clearly presented to us all through what has been made.//
I completely agree, except switch the word "atheist" for "rational religious person".
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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JL, I think you haven't understood my point, perhaps you interpreted my statement as saying that religious, spiritual, etc are not real because they are not realizable physically. Certainly the ideas are real, and ideas do motivate people to act, so their effects are tangible.
My point is that these ideas are the result of a physical process which is measurable. Exactly how the ideas come into existence is still unexplained in detail. But even if they were explained as the result of a purely physical process, they could be thoughts of all those things you are talking about. There is certainly nothing which precludes that possibility.
Techniques to manipulate thought through training the mind can lead to insight regarding the mind, also on the perception of reality.
The duality here is not the usual western one... at least not as I understand it...
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jstan
climber
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Assume: there is a creator
Assume. the creator made everything
Assume. everyone sees what has been made
Then: non believers are ignoring (not admitting the existence of) the world around them.
That is easy to test.
Hold a non-believer under water. If he recognises the water exists just before he has drowned then he goes to heaven.
If he does not, he goes to hell.
This was done with witches in New England in the 1600's.
A wonderful resolution for the problem of non-believers.
Christians believed this was Christian in the 1600's.
How about you Flanders?
Did Jesus go around arguing death for non-believers?
Or were the Christians in 1600, not quite Christian?
And if they were not quite Christian, do you suppose others today may also suffer from this malady?
If this is true is it not our duty to discover the truth?
Perhaps the answer is to drown some Christians.
If they go to Heaven, they were Christian.
If they go to Hell, voila, we have shown they were not Christian!
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WBraun
climber
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jstan
We're already in hell, it can only get worst, there will be no more television.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Ed wrote: "My point is that these ideas are the result of a physical process which is measurable."
What I'm saying, Ed, is that "ideas" are one thing, and I agree that ideas are in large part tied to brain, though I doubt in the way you are saying, i.e., that the brain "creates" ideas, or that an idea is the "product" of neuro functioning. As I've said before, the neuro-functioning IS the idea.
Where do you suppose is the separation or distance between the neuro-fuinctioning and the idea?
However ideas are "content," or stuff, things, measurable units of energy. Raw awareness itself is not this, nor is it a brain (content, material, etc.) function, created by the brain nor yet a property. The stuff constantly geysering up from "nothing" in measurable. The borderless field in which thoughts, ideas, neurofunctioning, hormomes, blood, sweet and tears arise is of course measureless.
Though I'm not well enough versed in QM to know exactly what it is all about, but I've heard others say that awareness is like the wave function (not "there") and thoughts are "matter" to which all science (measuring) is rooted. But of course the wave function and the matter, or awareness and thought, are the selfsame. Zen construs this concept as: Emptiness is form and form is emptiness - exactly.
To understand this experientially, you'd simply have to meditate till you understand that awareness itself is non-local, impersonal and totally ungraspable. Till that time your thoughts and evaluating mind will tell you awareness is a creation or product of the evolved brain. Of course awareness will never argue because the witness is not "you."
JL
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jstan
climber
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"there will be no more television."
Ahhhhhh!
Heaven!
At last.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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One last thought, returing to the idea that one day you woke up and forgot all your beliefs or mental constructs. Undestand that this question has been considered by inquiring minds for ages, especially by hard core Quantum Mechanics hombres.
Schrödinger, in his little book "What is Life?" points out that what is meant by 'I' is not the collection of experienced events but namely the canvas upon which they are collected. If a hypnotist succeeds in blotting out all earlier reminiscences, he writes, there would be no loss of personal existence - "Nor will there ever be."
This last clause - "Nor will there ever be" a loss of personal existence is a reiteration of his belief that the true "I" and true personal existence lies in the canvass on which "things" are collected, not in the things themselves. This underscores Schrödinger's sympathy with Hindu concept of the Brahman, "that each individual's consciousness is only a manifestation of a unitary consciousness or infinate wave form pervading the universe."
Go figure that would come from the old Austrian playboy.
JL
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Funny that this draws such vitriol. All it says is that we can know that God exists. It's not quite
filled with the hatred and death to sinners that you guys want to add to it.
The God I know reaches out with mercy, grace, and love...extending those gifts to anyone who
cares to take hold of them, but never forcing anyone to walk with him or follow his advice.
Personally, I see it as a good thing and attempt to walk the talk (with difficulty at times), and just
like I see in Him, If God himself does not badger or coerce anyone to accept His advice, I don't
feel like I should either. Dialogue is good, the sharing of our experiences, but beyond that
I can only be responsible for what I think and do, and hope the best for my fellow man. It's up
to each of us to find the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
Doug
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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If there is no God then we are just rats running on a treadmill!
But THANK God He IS!
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apogee
climber
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Flanders and Gobee:
Religion is for those who need it.
Unknown
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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rrider-
Another variation on your theme that I like is the idea that corelates the extinction of so many animal species with the growth of the human population. As more animals die, their souls have to go somewhere so they jump into all the new humans being created.
Thus there are more and more animals masquerading as human beings. Conversely there are more and more first time inexperienced humans struggling to figure out what it is to be human anyhow.
Of course this may actually be an insult to the animals.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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ghost-
I'm assuming that your creation account featuring raven is from the North American Native tradition?
I am reminded of a Hindu saying from India also involving a raven. Imagine a raven flies from the flat plains next to the Ganges to the crestline of the Himalayas once every thousand years. The raven then takes a beak full of dirt from the mountains and flies back to the Gangetic plain with it. When the Himalayas have been reduced in this way to be as flat as northern India, then one day will have passed in the mind of God.
Needless to say, Hindus have no problem with the idea of evolution.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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I'm a little late to the discussion tonight. I was posting many pics on the Facelift thread. Yo all might want to take a look. Many pics include you and the ending is for our heart, soul, mind and being....as we address here. Be back wit yo all manana. Tired. Discussions presented today great and enjoyed reading. Peace, lynnie
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Weschrist-
Translation please?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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"like the wave function"
well, really the wave function is an abstract construction which allows us to calculate the probability of an occurrence of some process so described... formally, we never measure the wave function, only it's magnitude. It is, no doubt, an approximation to reality and a provisional concept of great utility. You can call it truth, but I prefer to think of it more as a very useful idea.
It is easy to get twisted up into knots (and everyone early in the quantum mechanics game did) over the physical interpretation of the wave function, but I don't think that any of that twisting and knotting resulted in much productive insight. After the resolution of the Einstein-Rosen-Podolsky paradox (the apparent non-locality of the non-relativistic quantum mechanics and the non-existence of "hidden variables") we take a much more subdued view of the whole thing.
Quantum mechanics remains a fertile ground for all manner of bizarre ideas by people who aren't willing to actually learn it. Maybe we physicists should be more willing to teach it.
I don't accept your point about "raw awareness," as being anything particularly special, and certainly it is a subjective concept. Learning how to change your thoughts in response to the sensory perception, and even to alter what is perceived is possible. When the observer does this, does it alter physical reality? No.
As far as Schrödinger concept of individuality, well I don't see where it addresses the difference between a purely mechanical explanation for what we experience vs. a spiritual one... both are consistent with our "observation."
If your arguments live by the wave equation, they die by the wave equation too. A universal wave equation does not have entanglement because its coherence cannot be maintained... in our world it gets us back to what we see around us, not what we detect at the atomic scale.... that idea is hogwash, as far as the physics is concerned.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Didn't Fred Beckey date an "Ardi" BITD?
Ron, ROTFLMAO
And yet there is no mention of Islam…
Hey Bluey I mentioned it in my post of October 3
“Jesus Christ was real, but the shite idiots that thought up the religions that believe in the God of Abraham (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) and use it for their own agenda are just that, SH#TE. And of course other crap religions and cults (such as the cult of Scientology).”
And now that the Italian judicial system has ruled that Berlusconi is not above the law and is not immune from prosecution, do you think GAWD will save his crooked arse?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Ed wrote: "I don't accept your point about "raw awareness," as being anything particularly special, and certainly it is a subjective concept."
This is a tough one for people to grasp: that awareness itself is not a concept (content) nor is it personal (remember, I said it was impersonal). But if you're still thinking that awareness is "produced" by your brain, then you're left with your own conclusions.
Also, a physical interpretation of awareness is silly, since it is entirely insubstantial. And try proving it even exists. It's like the ontology of the wave function:
"Whether the wave function is real, and what it represents, are major questions in the interpretation of quantum mechanics. Many famous physicists have puzzled over this problem, such as Erwin Schrödinger, Albert Einstein and Niels Bohr. Some approaches regard it as merely representing information in the mind of the observer. Some, ranging from Schrödinger, Einstein, David Bohm and Hugh Everett III and others, argued that the wavefunction must have an objective existence."
JL
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jstan
climber
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"Funny that this draws such vitriol. All it says is that we can know that God exists. It's not
quite filled with the hatred and death to sinners that you guys want to add to it."
To repeat:
"All it says is that we can know that God exists."
Flanders, what you posted with its faux-logic allows us to know nothing. Nothing at all. And
it was Christians following this kind of imitation logic who were actually drowning people or
burning them at the stake.
If people were trying to sell Christianity without employing enforcement (heaven/hell and
that nonsence), and were just saying the things Hillel and Christ actually said, in modern
days you would get a friendlier reception.
The bible is a pastiche of words pursuing unknown agendas of the day pasted together over
thousands of years. Somewhere there has to be a well researched and documented book
giving us what the founders of Christianity actually said. It may be only one page but
whatever the length, Christians need to go to it and follow that.
That is if you really want to be Christian.
And those who do want to be Christians have a real problem. There are a huge number of
people claiming to be Christian out there pushing their own agendas using religion as a
cover.
A huge credibilty problem.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Jan, no comments on my questions to you from a couple pages ago? Too bad!
Radical - no problem, apology accepted. I had to graph out the lineage for myself to get it straight in my head, so I know how tricky it can be. But I'm pretty careful to insure that before I write something as fact, that it's something I've double/triple checked from various sources.
One thing I discovered when I graphed this stuff out is this: There was a period over 100,000 years long (from about 250,000 years ago to 120,000 years ago) when there were four entirely unique hominids roaming the earth! In addition to us (Homo Sapiens), there were Homo Erectus, Homo Rhodesiensus, and Homo Neanderthalis. Can you imagine what it must have been like to be around then? Three other sort of people-ish people who you might occasionally run into - alike, but horribly strangely different. I sometimes wonder if this is how the idea of Aliens got into the zeitgeist, the greater human subconscious. A lurking fear of the "other" out there - somewhere. What are they like? No-one knows for sure, though there are many tales...
In fact, Homo Sapiens shared the earth with one or another Homo species for 85% of our time here. That has *got* to have had an impact. And most recently, it was with Neanderthals, who must have been very scary - significantly larger and more powerful, and, at first anyway, totally comparable intellectually.
Okay, now going waaay back in time...
Regarding the age of the MRCA between humans and and chimps - I think it gets tricky to figure out genetically, in part because it's thought that there was interbreeding between the Homo (ancestors of us) line and the Pan (ancestors of the chimps) long after the two diverged. My reading of it is that there's pretty clear mixing of the two in our own DNA.
Who knows, perhaps Ardi's people kept the ancestors of today's chimpanzees as something like pets/slaves, and occasionally bred with them. It may seem repulsive, but remember, the ancestors of the chimps were likely just as different from today's chimps as we are from Ardi.
GO
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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jstan wrote: And those who do want to be Christians have a real problem. There are a huge number of people claiming to be Christian out there pushing their own agendas using religion as a cover.
Just change the phrase "huge number" to "All".
Of course, if you believe it, then your particular "agenda" is simply "truth". And who can argue with that?
G
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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A physical interpretation of awareness is silly.
Silly? I'm pretty sure that most of the greatest minds studying the phenomenon of mind would disagree with you. I see this kind of awareness as not so far from everyday, normal animal consciousness. The biochemical basis for long and short term memory is understood pretty well, and it basically works the same across a wide range of animals. Read something by Eric Kandel. I have no doubt that people who mediate properly can having seemingly transcendental experiences. That, in no way, makes the phenomenon ACTUALLY transcendental. The default position should be that all mind IS the result of physical phenomenon. The burden of proof is on you, and so far, I have not read anything that is remotely convincing (with all due repect).
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Jstan writes: "And those who do want to be Christians have a real problem. There are a huge number of people claiming to be Christian out there pushing their own agendas using religion as a
cover. A huge credibilty problem."
No disagreement here. Given that you are on the forum I'll guess that you are a climber, assuming that is true you no doubt have seen a few folks back at camp, or maybe the bar talking about their
conquests of the day. Ever heard someone tell the bros what a cool pitch it was, sinker hands, etc......The only problem is that you just happened to be on a nearby route and saw the debacle. The guy hanging all over the pitch, cussing up a storm, calling BS on the ratings, oh! it's too
greasy today, etc.....
point being we all know that some say they climb 5.11 or 12 or whatever, BUT it doesn't appear to be so in reality, they want to be part of the club for some reason.
Same in Christianity, Jesus said "in that day some will say Lord, Lord, but we did this or that in your name.... And Jesus will say to them, depart from me, I never knew you.
Not everyone who likes the club is a card carrying member apparently.
Doug
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Go Climb-
I haven't forgotten your question but it's complicated and I have a set of papers to grade.It does relate though to your latest post about there being multiple species of Homo around at any one time. I'll get back to you as soon as I can.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Largo and Ed-
I understand you both and I believe you are both right within the parameters which you both operate. As a person specializing in the material and the measurable, Ed is never going to accept a non material entity or dimension that he can't link to the physical. As a philosopher and I assume meditator, who has experience of a presence or state of awareness permeating the universe, John is never going to change his understanding to exclude that dimension. Perhaps in the distant future (hundreds or thousands of years from now?) these two dimensions will be understood in a common way by both philosophers and physicists, but certainly not in our lifetimes.
I think that Ed is right in the sense that even the experience of a non verbal energy/ intelligence / presence is processed through the human brain. To be aware that one is aware without verbal thought, is still to make use of the brain. I say this somewhat reluctantly as a person who has had a number of extraordinary internal experiences and pondered their source. However, just because the brain can not be excluded does not mean that a universal awareness does not exist. One can't prove that it does, one also can't prove that it doesn't.
Lately though I've begun to think that those of us favoring a non physical dimension to the universe need to change our paradigm. The push since the 1960's has been to try to find a reconciliation with science, to restore what was lost 500 years ago beginning with Galileo. Perhaps the new era we are entering is one in which we accept both as valid but separate ways of understanding the world which nevertheless can and from the awareness/presence point of view should be used simultaneously? The danger and fear of course is that science and technology will overwhelm the spirit. However, if both sides accept that whether true or not, the intuition of a non physical dimension to the universe is beneficial to our species in a practical evolutionary way, this would offer a way forward. It will of course leave the awareness group somewhat unsatisfied since it will sense itself to have succumbed at least partially to a mechanistic view of the universe, but will benefit from the freedom to carry on without having to always justify itself.
I'm groping here so not sure if this will be intelligible or not.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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The logicians have fun with materialism:
1) If we are going to explain consciousness, then we have to find some way of defining this thing we are trying to explain. If we can't define it then there is nothing to explain.
(2) When we talk about explanations of consciousness, we are really asking about "How would a materialist explain consciousness in terms of brains", since idealists, dualists or neutral monists don't need any "explanations of consciousness" any more than materialists need "explanations of matter."
(3) If we try to define consciousness directly in terms of neural structure/function then the question we refered to in P2 becomes "How would a materialist explain [some neutral structure/function] in terms of brains?" This can be rejected on two grounds. First, the materialist would be assuming his conclusion. Second, when he talks about consciousness then he isn't refering to the thing most people mean by that word. If consciousness usually meant "neural activity" then this debate would not even be happening. There would be no mind-body problem and no history of ontology.
(4) (from 1, 2 and 3) We have established that we need to define consciousness and that we can't define it in terms of neural function or activity (or behaviour, for that matter.)
(5) We can define consciousness privately, in terms of our own experiences.
(6) We can inductively infer from other people's behaviour that they can do the same thing with in terms of their own experiences. By this method we can end up with consciousness as a word which is usable in this argument and which refers to the thing we are actually trying to explain. At no point in 5 or 6 did we make any assumptions about consciousness not being material. All we did was define it in a way which did not explictly claim it was material.
(7) There are no additional possible means of defining consciousness.
(8) (from 4, 5, 6 and 7): Consciousness cannot be defined without refering to entities which (a) have no material definitions and which (b) have not been assumed to be material with a claim of "materialism is true so they must be material".
(9) If you don't define consciousness as something neural and you don't assume consciousness is material by claiming "it must be, because everything is" then there is no way of defending the claim that consciousness is a material entity.
(10) The existence of consciousness cannot be estabilished without using non-material entities.
Materialists usually complain that the non-materialists have to assume their conclusion in order to falsify materialism. This is not in fact true. The materialists really are dependent on assuming their conclusion, as shown above. But non-materialists have an option that the materialists do not have - they can employ a private ostensive definition to define consciousness subjectively. Simply saying "I know I'm conscious, and that is why I know how to use the word "consciousness"" doesn't actually make any assumptions about the nature of reality.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Given that you are on the forum I'll guess that you are a climber,
No, as most of us here know, "jstan" is just an avatar chosen by a group of Japanese schoolgirls for an English class project. They know nothing about climbing. Probably have never climbed.
Man, but this retardnet is a strange place. Never know who you're talking to.
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jstan
climber
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"No disagreement here. Given that you are on the forum I'll guess that you are a climber, assuming that is true you no doubt have seen a few folks back at camp, or maybe the bar talking about their conquests of the day. Even heard someone tell the bros what a cool pitch it was, sinker hands, etc......The only problem is that you just happened to be on a nearby route and saw the debacle. The guy hanging all over the pitch, cussing up a storm, calling BS on the ratings, oh! it's too
greasy today, etc....."
You are not going to believe this but I never did encounter a climber behaving this way.
Climbers are a special crew and we have to take that into consideration when constructing our arguments. We also have to allow for the fact, pick any topic, and you will find a half dozen people out there on ST who have made a life study of that topic.
Daunting to say the least. That also has to be taken into consideration.
I believe Thomas Jefferson was one of the people who tried to reconstruct Christ's sayings. We have had quite a slew of mid-eastern scrolls discovered since then. I think there is a real opportunity today for a rebirth. And a rebirth is what is required.
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jstan
climber
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"you are incapable of explaining"
Wes, here your reach may have exceeded your grasp.
Lo these many posts ago I proposed a functional definition of "consciousness". To wit the present moment holds within it the expectation that another moment shall follow. The biological data supporting this is substantial.
Now
if we here are talking about another consciousness can someone provide a link to the functional definition of that consciousness and the supporting material data?
Ta,
Edit:
A recent biography of Einstein recounts his reply when told he would die were an aneurism not surgically repaired.
I die today or I die tomorrow. What difference?
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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A little off topic, but since the discussion has drifted from Ardi to religion to god to consciousness to whatever, I thought I'd pass along the following. A letter Einstein wrote a year before he died was recently auctioned off and in he he wrote the following:
"...I would never have gotten myself to engage intensively with your book because it is written in a language inaccessible to me. The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still purely primitive, legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."
I'd say the dead physicist pretty much nails it.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin' place
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness
I don't think there is a hard problem. Humans, worms and even lower forms have awareness and reactions that can be expained mechanistically, so those seem subjective, but can be explained objectively.
Our "inner-lives" and experience of awareness and self-consciousness will eventually be shown to be an objective product of our higher level brains.
The fear, among some scientists and sci-fi buffs, that once computers reach a certain number of computations per second threshold they will become conscious and self-aware, reflects this.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Apogee, "Religion is for those who need it." Unknown
bc, "product of human weakness".
Something transports each one of us through this life. Whether it's ourselves alone or ourselves coupled with something else. My vehicle of choice is jesus. lynnie
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin' place
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Lynne,
I'm trying to get by on my own two feet (and hands).
It must be nice for all those individuals riding on the Christian bus or the Muslim bus--I just don't want to get run over.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Wanda, I said jesus, no Christian bus he and he doesn't run people over :D That's why he's my best friend. He cares about Everyone, even me.
Wes, good to have that great sense of humor brandished at Lynnie.....laughin' :DD
Edit: enjoy your ride :)
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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I haven't read all the above postings (who could - I have a life after all)but I can surmise the argument goes on and on between Christians and materialist. Anyway, I just finished a book that I for one really appreciated; "Misquoting Jesus" (Ehrman). The guy was an enthusiastic born again fundamentalist as a youth, but then went to school and got a PhD in New Testament Studies (he's one of the foremost textual scholars today) and came to understand that the Bible IS in fact a product of human thought. That doesn't mean necessarily that it isn't inspired, but that humans in their profound humanness where involved in its writing and in its modifications over the millennia. In the end he seems to have become more of an Episcopalian (just guessing); faithful but thoughtful and open ended all at the same time. Personally I get tired of fundamentalists reading the Bible their way, and also get tired of anti-Christians assuming that is the only way it is or can be read. Shooting down a straw man of your own creating isn't much of a victory. 6000 years doesn't necessarily mean 6000 years in a scientific sense, but "God created the world" is IMHO an idea well worth standing on.
Anyway, whatever your position is, materialist, fundamentalist, or liberal intellectual Christian (or Hindu, as in my case) the book is well worth a read. The nuance factor in your understanding of these "the Bible says" issues will definitely be increased.
Oh, and by the way, if you aren't into old fashioned reading, Audible.com has an audio version on sale right now. Only $5 I believe.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin' place
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Okay Lynne, so you carpool.
To continue the analogy, in a faith-based transportation system everyone and no one has the right (of) way. It's a comfortable ride until you encounter a busload of folks who insist on driving on the left side or who want to drive you off the road because they don't like your make and model. And then evidence-based pedestrians like myself are caught in the pileup.
Basically, I'm saying that I think reliance on faith can comfort individuals, but it is bad for the progress of society.
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jstan
climber
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"Basically, I'm saying that I think reliance on faith can comfort individuals, but it is bad for the progress of society."
Bingo!
Near perfectly phrased.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Jan wrote: I haven't forgotten your question but it's complicated and I have a set of papers to grade.It does relate though to your latest post about there being multiple species of Homo around at any one time. I'll get back to you as soon as I can.
Cool, thanks! I eagerly await your response. And of course, first things first, so good luck with the papers. With that said, back to work for me, too.
Cheers!
GO
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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I'd just like to say that I think this thread, although starting off with a rather inflammatory title, has been a particularly good one. It has wandered off topic a fair bit, has presented plenty of differences of opinion of course, but, for the most part the participants have been civil and thoughtful. There are some pretty sharp and interesting people here on Supertopo.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2009 - 04:31pm PT
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Well, I was going to call the topic title "Strike THREE for the Creationists",
but I felt they should be allowed unlimited swings at the anthropological pitches, just as a matter of "faith".
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Wanda, I don't carpool either :D I was talking solely about individuals. When you begin to extrapolate out to "people" and groups of people you lose me and the point I was trying to make.
It's me and jesus
It's you and you
No generalizations, they are just that.
AOBTW, How in the world is having jesus as my best friend bad for the progress of society. I might argue that jesus encourages me to be the best to others, my planet and myself. He's anti selfish. jess sayin', Lynnie
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin' place
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How in the world is having jesus as my best friend bad for the progress of society.
In a lot of ways, because it's not just you.
If someone decides to not vaccinate her children because Jesus will protect them, the children might not get sick; no problem. But if enough people believe the same and do the same, it can be bad for the rest of society when they get sick, get others sick and delay the day when that pathogen is eliminated.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Dr. F,
Mark 9:19 KJV
"He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you?"
Jesus said this. Spot on right about now.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Wanda, you're reaching and stretching if that is the only example you could come up with. I had all 4 of our kids get every shot etc. recommended.
Today the only two people I personally know that have not have their kids immunized are neither jesus followers.
Why not discuss rather how jesus has been the main impetus in my life for helping others and my planet and myself. Peace and Joy (which he gives me also), lynne
PS, and why do you keep moving the topic from individuals (a known quantity) to the general (unknown) public ?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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I mentioned before on other Threads, Dr. F, if it weren't for jesus I would have most likely been dead in a gutter from a drug overdose or worse at age 22. The not real and immaterial jesus literally saved my life. It was not me. I could not even begin to save myself. I was in fact destroying yo. :D
And he didn't just save me, he saved my marriage which went on for 39 years. Jess sayin'
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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See, they're even coming in from outter space to hear the good news. Hahahaha. Hey, we need humor....even if mine's not that grate. lynnie
EDIT: Not Fair, Cintune, you changed the picture. :(
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Cintune,
What is there to believe? They're here.
Richard Dolan: UFOs and the National Security State
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veQ-LCjDCAc
However, you don't want to worship them or really "believe" in them. Bad stuff man. Fallen Angels, Nephalim, Demons can not be trusted.
Believe in God.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Dr. F, I am certainly not stuck. Like any healthy relationship that grows and gets deeper as time goes on and you learn more about one another, so with my best friend, jesus.
For example, I used to be really selfish and self centered. I am alot less today. Just because jesus is my best friend does not mean I do not grow and learn. I love science, math for me is tricky, I have even changed how I feel about politics and the party I belong to. I note in a much deeper way that we are here first to help our fellow people around us .... Not to lay up treasures here on earth that will eventually rot and we can't take with us when we die.
What's wrong with that ? Also got involved with Greg Mortenson's Project and I could go on. I think, actually, I am growing as a human being. I wish you could have been at the Bachar Memorial in C4. The theme said it well. Love and Community. Lynnie
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2009 - 07:02pm PT
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cintune, I just can't stop laughing
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jstan
climber
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"Wanda, you're reaching and stretching if that is the only example you could come up with."
I'll take a cut at it with what I think is a simple one. (It won't be of course. Nothing is simple in a 2000 year old argument.)
We hear a lot about "end times" when all the faithful will be called to heaven and all temporal problems become solved. It is even possible for the faithful to think no effort is required here on earth, since that is the prospect. Indeed the closer we think we are to end times the less need for us to do anything.
In fact "end times" is a handy thing to grab when you just don't want to face a problem. It is a crutch.
Now Lynne you may not believe in end times and you are entirely willing to work to solve today's problems independently of faith. If that is true then you should be going out to others who are faithful and trying to convince them end times is one thing they should not be believing. Not all that is in the bible or is said to be in the bible, should be believed.
But this is not the behavior of a "believer". Believers just believe. They do not pick and choose.
And therein is the danger. A coda existing 2000 years ago that requires perfect obedience is not going to serve us well in all the unexpected situations we face today.
We have to choose for today based upon today's demands.
Now many things taught 2000 and even more years ago are very good and useful today. What is not helpful are all of the histories, folk tales, and prohibitions imposed upon believers. IMPOSED. IMO many of those are just strategies employed during past centuries allowing the church to gain obedience among the faithful and the secular power that comes with that obedience.
All of that needs to be thrown away and the basic ideas restated and followed when they have merit.
When they have merit.
George Carlin summed it up well when he advised those gaining peace and confidence from their faith. He said,
"You are paying too high A PRICE."
He did not say what he clearly wanted to say. To wit,
Suck it up and do it on your own!
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jstan
climber
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With regards to a post of yours submitted while I was doing my thesis above.
"I am growing as a human being. I wish you could have been at the Bachar Memorial in C4. The theme said it well. Love and Community."
Lynne, we always have to pick and choose. You may have sensed love and community was the theme, because that is what you wanted to believe. I sensed something you also expressed, "Live your dream", was the real theme. The roar when someone suggested everyone quit their job tells us what the theme really was. That was where everyone really was.
In the comments you asked me to make I tried to advance a counterpoint. I said we do not know all of the wonderful things we each will bring about so long as we are still breathing. So it was I told the assembled it was their duty to themselves and to us
to complete their route.
It can't be left unfinished.
I'll end with a simple question. Knowing all that we now know, which would we prefer.
To have John where he is now?
Or to have him still here with us?
Everyone of us has this duty.
Without that duty, we have no community.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dell Cross wrote: "Largo, this is the second time in this thread I've noticed you are quoting another source without attribution."
Jeebus, what am I, back in grad school. I read stuff constantly and save for a time anything interesting, especially stuff I might disagree with - like deterministic materialism.
But hey, I can start listing attributions, though I'd like the random shite I post here to stand or sink on it's own merit, not on it being quantified via attributions.
JL
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WBraun
climber
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Dr Failed -- "but some of us don't stop at GO, we keep going till we get stopped by the limits of the mind and human understanding."
Oh bullsh'it ... you're still standing at start. When you gonna start going?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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John Long,
A friend just turned me onto an interesting book. Since you're a great story teller thought I'd send this quote your way. "A story is a character who wants something and overcomes conflict to get it." Book is, "Blue Like Jazz", I believe, written by Donald Miller. Peace, Lynne
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MH2
climber
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I know that there are religious folk and even so-called creationists among us, if not here then nearby, but I am truly surprised to find an Animist, albeit one who couches the belief in quantum mechanics.
On an old TV show they once explored "women's intuition". They had a scientist who was asked by one of the believers, "But isn't it possible that there are forces we are not aware of?"
He answered, "Yes, that is possible, but if so, we are unaware of them."
I wouldn't call that materialism, just pragmatism.
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WBraun
climber
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Ari, probable life appearance view of Ardipithecus ramidus.
Probable means speculation as they ultimately do not know. Theory.
4.4 million years ago they say. Still they can't even remember or know WTF they did 2 days ago.
And still the "so called scientists" have no clue ultimately why we even exist and our real purpose in life is. TODAY
No ... they want us to study a monkey instead.
In Darwin’s theory there is no acceptance of the living entity as spirit soul, and therefore his explanation of evolution is incomplete.
Their only answers are mere hypothesis, theories, mental speculations, and guesses based on dead material bones, DNA, which are material.
They ULTIMATELY do not know. How can any sane person BELIEVE and have FAITH in such a process.
Their answer is always, in the future we will probably know.
The truth and full absolute knowledge is always present in full in the past present and the future. It always remains the truth eternally.
Summon Bonum
Their method is the ascending process of a gaining knowledge. A person may be a great academician, scholar or professor, but he cannot speculate and expect to understand the Absolute Truth, for his senses are limited.
If we are in the darkness of night, we may attempt to attain the sunlight by ascending in a powerful rocket. The descending process, however, we simply await the sunrise, and then we understand immediately.
The last two sentences are most likely way to simple for a complex technocrat person overburdened by huge quantities of relative and/or hypothetical truths.
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WBraun
climber
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The doctrine of evolution, the science of anthropology is not new.
This knowledge has existed since the Vedic time, and all these sequences are disclosed in Vedic literature.
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WBraun
climber
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I think Darwin would be the first to concede ....
Here you are speculating again ... "I think"
If you feel that the vedic truths are speculations and total bullsh'it then so be it. That's your speculations again. Go ahead and you prove it wrong.
Not my problem, yours.
Again, I'm not your mother, you do the work.
Even the Vedas acknowledge "Christ" as bonafide.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Science shows no mercy...
Jesus does!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dell Cross wrote: "Largo, I just meant that those quotes weren't in quotes. They weren't blocked off in any way that made it clear they weren't your words. I started reading them as if you wrote them. Perhaps it was obvious to everybody else."
No, you're entirely correct here. I'll make a point to be more careful. Thanks for pointing that out. I'm lazy here - bad habit, for sure.
JL
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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I ordered the Stonemaster book!
To see the Neanderthals!
Sweet!!!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Where do I put my wallet and keys?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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If it smells, looks, and tastes like... just don't step in it!
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MH2
climber
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Dunno if I could handle the Vedic text but WBraun always has something interesting to say:
The truth and full absolute knowledge is always present in full in the past present and the future. It always remains the truth eternally.
I like this as a description of mathematics, in which I take a certain consolation since I think it has, does, and will exist even if time itself quits on us.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Living in Japan our days and nights are reversed so I was amazed at all the contributions to read through when I woke up this morning. So many things to think about, so many things to laugh at. I haven't been this challenged or entertained in a long time.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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radical-
It's interesting how no one has responded to your grandmother story and is indicative of how our society handles that which does not fit into the materialist mode - by ignoring it. I too have had many experiences of the type you describe. I am also interested in the stories of near death experiences where people who were brain wave dead were resuscitated and came back with information they could not have known even in normal waking consciousness. The blind person who can describe in color what the doctors and nurses in the ER look like, the person who can repeat the frantic conversation between doctors and nurses during the 15 minutes they were brain wave dead, the person who meets a twin on the other side whom their parents never told them about and so on. These along with my own experiences of precognition and what I have seen of Tibetan and Indian yogis seem pretty compelling evidence to me at least, that there is a non material component to the human experience.
Part of this will probably be explained in the future with the use of better measuring tools. When the instruments for measuring brain waves become more sophisticated, we may find that what seemed brain wave dead today, was just not a subtle enough measurement and that will explain things like conversations that can be repeated after one is brain wave dead by current standards. I am reminded of the yogis who claimed to stop their heart beat which enabled them to be buried underground for months at a time to no ill effect. When checked with a stethoscope, they had no measurable heart beat but when an EKG was applied, a small periodic flutter of the heart was observable. Until all such experiences can be measured however, I take the view that there is a non material component to the universe. It seems to me to be the simplest explanation of what I have experienced and observed until proved otherwise.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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But some of us don't stop at GO
Hey, that's fine with me - you all have my permission to continue. Except those of you being mean to poor Lynne. You guys can stop.
Cheers!
GO
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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GO, I appreciate your concern, friend....but no one's being mean to lynnie.
Jess discussing.
I'm only speaking about what I personally know and have experienced.....what has worked for me for over 30 years.
To paraphrase Jan, she said I have stuck with my "root guru". I like that and if that helps some of you understand better so be it. But I call him, jesus.
Peace to all on a beautiful TGIF.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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holy cow
wow
too much
mind blower
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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JL - I think you can always erect a strawman to knock down.
I believe part of what I'm getting at is that our definition of consciousness, awareness, etc, do not describe the actual thing itself. It is possible to construct a theory of consciousness that is not physical. I think it is possible to construct one that is physical.
As you know there are any number of exercises you can do to show that there are misconceptions regarding our theories of consciousness. However, this is a part of understanding what consciousness is and what it is not.
And while consciousness is seated in each individual, there are extended aspects of it, genetic and social, which extend our descriptions. It's not a simple thing to unfold all this, of course, but I do not despair of difficult things to understand, maybe that is my religion.
Now on the separate topic of "the wavefunction" I would say that Hilbert vector spaces are a good description of the universe, but to say the universe is a Hilbert vector space is probably pushing it. If and when we understand things better we might describe the universe differently, appropriating quantum mechanics into the larger description and showing how to move between that new description and the old description, as we have done with classical mechanics and quantum mechanics.
The world is classic for good reasons, and at our scale, the size and time and energy and numbers of atoms for which things take place, the quantum effects are averaged out and cease to be explicitly seen. To have a coherent wave function engulfing the entire universe, in our current models of the universe (which are incredibly accurate in describing what is going on) such a thing is not possible. For reference, look at the work going on to make a "quantum computer." Decoherence in a controlled environment takes place over 10s of nanoseconds at best. And these are in nanometer spaces with as few atoms involved as possible (though still many trillions, probably)... one entangles, then the entanglement is lost in the sea of thermal noise, the averaging of all those atoms....
nature is the only authority here, not those great minds you mentioned...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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According to the video, and other things I've read, the "great leap forward" took place sometime around 35,000 years ago. But at that time, H. Sapiens was pretty much distributed around the globe. If there is a genetic component to it, that suggests that an external forcing created the *same* parallel evolution (albeit a very tiny change) more or less simultaneously in thousands of different populations!
Is that the consensus in paleoanthropology?
Go Climb-
The short answer is no.
Homo sapiens originated in Africa about 190,000 years ago. So far, the oldest known piece of artwork has been found at Blombos Cave in South Africa in the form of two engraved pieces of ochre dated 70,000 and beads at 75,000. Sibudu cave in South Africa has a bone arrowhead and the first bone needle at 61,000 and the use of heat treated mixed compound glue dated at 72,000. The general consensus is that a fully developed language was necessary for these developments.
There is then a 30,000 year gap between the engraved ochre (the world's oldest piece of art) and the cave paintings in France which are the next oldest. The question is whether we just haven't found any more yet or whether there wasn't anything new during that period. Since the cave paintings of France and Spain are the most advanced in the world, I think we can at least say, that they had an artistic breakthrough there early on and art has remained important to both cultures (along with Italy) from that time to the present. However, since we have rock art dating to about 50,000 in Australia which is shortly after humans left Africa, I think we can say that they possessed the ability and interest before they left that continent. They were simply less skillful at it than the Europeans. The video was filmed in France, so naturally the emphasis was on the breakthrough there.
I think your question concerns a variation of the multi-regional versus out of Africa theory, an issue that is fraught with ethnocentric biases. It was originally thought that since Homo erectus, the predessesor of H. sapiens, was found all over the old world (1.9 mil-300,000), that the various races of modern humans were evolved separately in various places from Homo erectus. Homo neanderthal (300,000-27,000) is found inside a circle that includes Europe, the Caucasian populated areas of North Africa, and northern Iraq. Therefore it was assumed that neanderthal was the progenitor of Caucasians. DNA tests of neaderthal material last year however, revealed that they were too different to be our ancestors although the two groups may have mated now and then.
This summer in China at an international conference, I heard similar reasoning from the professor emeritus of physical anthropology in China. Interestingly, he had dozens of slides of fossils dating Homo erectus at 1.7 mill to Homo ? about 100,000 years ago, showing continuous evolution of five characteristics which are not found in other areas of the world, including square shaped eye sockets. He also had three different systems of dating applied to each fossil so they were sure of the dates. From this he argued that Chinese people were unique from others in the world. When questioned however, I felt he condemned his own views by saying that they would not allow DNA testing on any of their fossils as had been done on neanderthal, because the material was "too rare and too precious" despite the fact that they have recovered more fossils from that time period than anyone else in the world. Then when asked if modern Chinese people shared these characteristics, he said no.
Later, a young Chinese DNA specialist who has taken over 100,000 samples in Asia and Oceania gave a talk which was scathing in its rebuttal. All samples he tested showed an African origin within the past 50-60,000 years. As he so well put it, "I know from my DNA that I had ancestors. The paleontologist can only hope that his fossils had descendants".
Puzzling it altogether, I came to the conclusion that H. erectus had evolved into something else in China, but that it was incorrect to call them archaic H. sapiens. Rather, they belong to an extinct category similar to, but different from, H. neanderthal (interestingly both had bony buns at the back of their head). Nobody at the conference mentioned H. floresiensis, the little "Hobbit" fossil found a couple of years ago in Indonesia where H. erectus has also been found. Some have speculated that he was a dwarf H. sapiens, others that he descended from Homo erectus. When I looked at photos of floresiensis after I got home, it seemed to me that the eyes were somewhere between round and square and the other characteristics of the Chinese H.erectus descendants were intermediate as well, so I'm betting that H.e. in Indonesia also produced an extinct descendant. Thus the family tree grows ever more bush like.
And finally back to the issue of art and language. I think the only real controversy in Africa is whether it took place gradually or whether there was a significant mutation which caused a leap forward in the 70,000 time frame.
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kent
Trad climber
SLC, Ut
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Thanks for the excellent summary.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Dr. F, remember I met you in person. :D You are not mean. It is about discussion. Your comments are not what I consider abusive. I Enjoy our sharing of thoughts.
The one thing I do not care for is being talked "down to". Guys may not understand this, but there are still men that knowingly or not speak pretty patronizingly to women. Jess sayin' Lynne
Edit: this does not apply to you Dr. F
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Jan, thanks for that! As for the chain of which Homo species descends from which, and when, It more or less agrees with the "consensus" view as I understand it. Or, to give a quick synopsis:
H. Habilis is a direct descendant from Australopithecus, around 2.4ma. H. Habilis then lived for roughly a million years.
H Ergaster branched off the line of H. Habilis near the end (say, around 1.7ma).
H. Ergaster basically morphed into H. Erectus around 1.2ma.
H. Erectus lived until something approaching 70,000 years ago. During that time, two important lines branched off of H. Erectus.
First came H Heidelbergensis, around .8ma
Second came H. Sapiens, around 200,000 years ago.
In the meantime, H Rhodesiensus and H Neanderthalis branched off of H. Heidelbergensis (or perhaps the Neanderthals branched off Rhodesiensus - this is neither 100% clear to me, nor important to my question).
So... with that out of the way!
My question is, this. Let's assume, as both you and I say, that H. Sapiens branched off only once for all intents and purposes, from H. Erectus, in Africa, around 200k years ago. Then H. Sapiens migrated all over the world starting around 70-100k years ago. Okay, so far so good?
Now to the meat of it. The video states that from 200k to around 40k years ago, Homo Sapiens was pretty equivalent to the other Homo species around at the time. That there was a very gradual advancement in toolmaking, but that it was slow - taking thousands of years to see much improvement.
And then, suddenly, around 35,000 years ago, something changed. At that point, H. Sapiens started doing things in the same way as what we do today: learning the way things are done, and then building upon that. This allows an explosion of improvements, even within a single generation.
Here's the key - the video doesn't state it explicitly, but it implies that this change happened at roughly the same time, all over the world, in all populations of H. Sapiens. How could this have happened?! I posited the idea of one final evolutionary micro-step, forced all over the world at around the same time. But I'm not particularly married to that idea. Certainly there could be other explanations.
But it seems that what you're saying is that no explanation is required, because the video is mistaken. That this change happened before the migration from Africa. That the "big bang" in brain development actually happened nearly 70,000 years earlier.
If so, then what explains the lack of evidence for it for those 70,000 years?
GO
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Think about it, from are perspective the cosmos is so big we don't even know how big it is!
Then when we go into the smallest cells and smaller it keep going and going!
God is all in all, we don't know nothing. God is so amazing, Amazing, AMAZING, Amen!
Praise God from Whom all blessings flow...Jesus is the Key,
Thx U, Jesus***>>>
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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That's good stuff for Sunday bible school Gobee, but doesn't work to well here.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Dr. F, Pay Attention....I'm trying to be nice and give you compliments but yo are not listening. I SAID, you DID NOT talk down to me. Hello, I enjoy our dialogue. :D lynnie
Shesh, this communication gig is tough.
Edit: OMG, I think you got it Craig, God IS Bigger than the universe and Jesus has the capacity to be friends with all, if you want him as a friend.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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"God is all in all, we don't know nothing. God is so amazing, Amazing, AMAZING, Amen!
Praise God from Whom all blessings flow...Jesus is the Key,
Thx U, Jesus***>>>"
Goddamn that shite is creepy Gobee. Like Jim Jones creepy.
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MH2
climber
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Jan says
there is a non material component to the human experience.
Would it be okay to rephrase that as, "There are parts of the human experience that are not understood."
?
Or are you convinced of a "non-material" component?
I've read studies of 'near-death' experiences, too, and found nothing weirder in them than the human brain itself.
I've had a few personal experiences that were uncanny, but hardly material for hidden worlds.
There are certainly areas where science is misused. It only answers well-defined questions, usually of a yes-or-no type. It has been pushed into areas where it doesn't work and human consciousness may well be one of those areas.
Thanks for the great exposition on humanoid evolution.
Thanks to Ed, too. Now if you could only explain A. Khrennikov maybe I would see what Largo is getting at....
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 10, 2009 - 01:04am PT
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On my ride home I thought maybe JL is worried about a deterministic theory of consciousness that one could fear arising from a classical (rather than quantum mechanical) description of "the machine" of the brain.
One needn't fear this, the answer lies in statistical mechanics and classical non-linear systems. We learn that the huge number of participating atoms provide a reasonable variation that is essentially unpredictable, certainly uncalculable. And besides, we also know that there are some systems whose non-linear behavior requires that the system initial conditions must be known to a degree which is not possible, thus the time evolution of the system is not calculable.
These variations and uncertainties allow plenty of room for "free will" even in a deterministic system.
I believe that much has been done in the last decade or so that it is difficult to reject the "reductionist" approach to consciousness with as much vehemence (and with equally little justification) as JL has in several posts.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 10, 2009 - 01:25am PT
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"I know from my DNA that I had ancestors. The paleontologist can only hope that his fossils had descendants."
Which seems the classic scientific refutation - evidence trumping theory. A witty comeback, too.
There is sometimes reputed to be an element of ethnocentrism in Han (Chinese) culture, perhaps more so than in others.
It is hard to believe that a separate species of Homo X could have evolved in east Asia since perhaps 150,000 BCE, but that the 'species' would still be fully able interbreed with individuals from other human 'species', and bear fertile offspring.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 10, 2009 - 08:53am PT
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Edit: "Science picks no favorites...
Jesus does!"
The sun shines on us all, and good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people.
The only people god chose to reveal Himself to were the Jewish, but after Jesus came and died on the cross, God is the God for the whole world and all people who BELIEVE IN HIM.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 10, 2009 - 11:19am PT
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John Donne
Meditation 17
Devotions upon Emergent Occasions
"No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were. Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee..."
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 10, 2009 - 11:46am PT
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as is stated at the end of A Small Package of Value Will Come To You, Shortly off of the "Bathing At Baxter's" album, the Jefferson Airplane re-wrote Donne's line...
(with slight reverb)
"No man is an island,
NO MAN IS AN ISLAND!"
-pause-
"...he's a peninsula..."
with much giggling ensuing...
I always like that one better than the original.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 10, 2009 - 11:52am PT
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Well the endgame is how or Whom, made everything that IS?
No creator, just happened or by God?
And how can we really know for sure, how it was made?
We just see the side effects, pretty good though!
I didn't make up the Bible and how it said it happened.
Everything I've read in it, rings true, and is bigger then me, when I try to live by it's ways,
I have to change, and I can't do it on my own. God gives us the grace through Christ, that we don't have to carry that burden, he did. But somehow you do live a better way, that pleases Him.
So in the end for me, I'll thank God!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 10, 2009 - 11:56am PT
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Gobee - if everything in the Bible that you apply to your life makes it better, why would it matter whether or not it was written by God... given the moral lessons there (at least the good ones) separated from a deity, why wouldn't they be just as good?
Why couldn't you conduct your life, morally, without a supreme being?
I think the answer is that you could.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 10, 2009 - 12:03pm PT
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Ed Hartouni wants to run the linear accelerator without consulting his boss nor anyone else.
All the parts to an automobile will be laid out on the factory floor and miraculously, just by chance, the parts assemble themselves without any higher intelligence, the creators of the parts, engineers, workers, installers, etc etc.
Even the robots were programmed originally by a higher intelligence.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 10, 2009 - 12:15pm PT
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yes Werner, it is true, that in some cosmic sense the parts of the automobile are assembled by beings that were assembled through the laws of nature governing the physical universe, only... and have done so without design help from a supernatural authority.
Pretty fricking amazing, I agree...
...that's how I see it.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 10, 2009 - 12:23pm PT
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Yes, for the materialist the higher authority is death. Time & Death is supreme to the materialist.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 10, 2009 - 12:24pm PT
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Werner, my question to Gobee goes to you, to, and respectfully...
wouldn't you choose to conduct yourself in the manner of the Vedas even without the supernatural, if what you had was only the natural?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 10, 2009 - 12:26pm PT
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time, perhaps, but there is birth and death
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 10, 2009 - 12:33pm PT
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I'm not the smartest kid on the block, not even close. I have a brain that God gave me and I use it!
God IS God, and that doesn't threaten Him that we can think, He wants us to!
I know that Jesus is the way, and everyone who doesn't, is wrong! But I would never kill anyone because they don't believe! I Don't think that I'm better then anyone else either, God is love!
There is a lot of good books out there, but only one GOD!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 10, 2009 - 12:34pm PT
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There's bonafide absolute truth that the Supreme being exists beyond all doubts.
It can be tested in a scientific process. It is beyond the scope of this forum to just present futile arguments based on the limited senses.
You can argue for and against forever and never understand thru the speculative ascending process.
The manufacturer of the automobile (creator) said to tighten the bolt to 25 pounds per square inch, and you speculate we don't even need the bolt.
Even the American Indian acknowledged the Supreme being.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 10, 2009 - 12:40pm PT
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Dr. F
certainly we are connected, but to continue the pop nature of my commentary on Donne, Jimi wrote in If 6 Were 9
"I'm the one who dies when it's time for me to die,
so let me live my life the way I want to"
which illustrates what it is that also makes us individual. These two forces, the individual and the collective, can be powerful poles, certainly in our contemporary politics it is almost the defining dialectic.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 10, 2009 - 12:41pm PT
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Werner and Gobee, neither of you answered my question...
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 10, 2009 - 12:46pm PT
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I think you mean Abraham.
I think God was testing Abe's heart for God!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 10, 2009 - 12:54pm PT
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"wouldn't you choose to conduct yourself in the manner of the Vedas even without the supernatural, if what you had was only the natural?"
The Vedas and the natural are one and the same. But if you only have knowledge up to the gross physical material nature then you would have to conduct your life even according to it's rules and regulations.
Still you are bound. Bondage is eternal. Whether spiritual or material.
In the material world you are bound by nature, otherwise you would ultimately be free from death. So Time and death are superior to the living entity.
The soul by it's true constitutional position is not the gross physical body. It transmigrates from body to body according to it's desires and consciousness.
Even in the spiritual world there is pain. It has to be because this material world is a direct reflection of the real truth.
The only difference is pain in the spiritual world is blissful.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 10, 2009 - 12:58pm PT
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Dr. F - you are connected through your past with the rest of humanity, if by no other bound then that of the accident of your birth. That conveys much of what you are, and is dependent on the community.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 10, 2009 - 01:01pm PT
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Anyways
One can study Socrates, those with a rigid western mind set, although he was an impersonalist (God is Ultimately not a person) he still was a very advanced soul.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 10, 2009 - 01:07pm PT
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"Werner, my question to Gobee goes to you, to, and respectfully...
wouldn't you choose to conduct yourself in the manner of the Vedas even without the supernatural, if what you had was only the natural?"
Why bother?
Edit: I lost a lot of money in Las Vedas!
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin' place
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Oct 10, 2009 - 01:12pm PT
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Well, isn't that special?
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jstan
climber
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Oct 10, 2009 - 01:15pm PT
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Great discussion folks.
You know, in the absence of material data it is a difficult thing to prove there is a god.
But think.............
How in heck would one go about showing there is only ONE god???
That seems harder than proving a negative.
You would have to look everywhere a god might exist and then also be able to prove a god could not live outside that set of places.
The fact this level of deduction and logic had been well developed long before Christ's day suggests we are in deep trouble. Some serious regression has taken place.
Before long will we see children being born without truly opposable thumbs and a lot of body hair?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 10, 2009 - 01:20pm PT
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Ed-
Here's a question for you. With the exception of a few articles in Discovery and Scientific American I haven't really done any serious reading about physics since the early 1970's. Are there any books published about what's gone on since then which are equivalent to those of Feynman, Gamow, or Asimov? I'm math illiterate so it has to be at that level.
Thanks!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 10, 2009 - 01:24pm PT
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I think you learn everything you need to in the sandbox, plays well with others!
But to follow religion by route is not a change of heart tward God's heart,
it's not an act but who you are, or who He IS.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 10, 2009 - 01:25pm PT
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Dumb, stupid, brainwashed, vague speculation, and on and on.
I think if you check every post I have written since I joined the topo I have always been or tried to be respectful of other's opinion's even if differing from mine.
Which one of you know's lynnies inner being, which one of you can prove absolutely there is No jesus and that he is not my best friend.
It is jesus that encourages me to treat others as well or better than myself. I guess yo are more highly evolved because you have learned the art form of name calling, and belittling remarks because someone thinks differently than you.
And don't, please, say well all the rest of the christians are.....generalities don't cut it. How can you paint with such a broadbrush? It's like saying all blondes are stupid.....hehehe.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin' place
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Oct 10, 2009 - 01:34pm PT
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Which one of you know's lynnies inner being, which one of you can prove absolutely there is No jesus and that he is not my best friend.
It is jesus that encourages me to treat others as well or better than myself.
If YOU cannot PROVE absolutely that there is a "living" jesus who is your best friend, and that it isn't all in your head, then the most you can claim is that it is your BELIEF, not jesus, that encourages you to treat others well or better than yourself.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 10, 2009 - 01:41pm PT
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Lynne:
It is as if we were speaking different languages.
When you say "Jesus is your best friend" the words you use imply a corporal being exists. If you did as Ed. suggests and say "the things I read in the Bible have helped me lead my life" - not one person would be able to comment. Then it would be as you have asked in your post above.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 10, 2009 - 01:42pm PT
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Since this is the age of the Kali Yuga, hypocrisy and quarrel, the iron age.
The below is what creates some of the fear from a lot of folks, about religiosity.
The word dambha (Sanskrit), indicates a self-righteous hypocrite, someone not so much concerned with being saintly as with appearing saintly.
In the age of Kali there is a rather large number of self-righteous, hypocritical religious fanatics claiming to have the only way, the only truth and the only light.
Even in the West, however, self-righteous hypocrites consider sincere and saintly followers of other disciplines to be heathens and devils.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 10, 2009 - 02:15pm PT
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"The word dambha (Sanskrit), indicates a self-righteous hypocrite, someone not so much concerned with being saintly as with appearing saintly
In the age of Kali there is a rather large number of self-righteous, hypocritical religious fanatics claiming to have the only way, the only truth and the only light.
Even in the West, however, self-righteous hypocrites consider sincere and saintly followers of other disciplines to be heathens and devils."
That's what Jesus said about the Pharisees, in his day.
Jesus said I am the Way to the Father.
So no matter how sincere and saintly I am I still need Jesus!
Edit: Paul said to think of others as better then yourself.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 10, 2009 - 02:23pm PT
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And one for Gobbee from the Word:
"Spare the rod, and spoil the child."
Direct from a loving god; beat the crap out of your children or they will be "spoiled".
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 10, 2009 - 02:25pm PT
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Bottoms Up! I'm a believer!
Agnostic's are undecided.
Atheist believe in not believing.
Scientist know all the information is not in about the physical world and stay open and know there is still more that could change the past undiscovered
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 10, 2009 - 02:29pm PT
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"Spare the rod, and spoil the child."
Will you let your kids play with fire or on the freeway?
This will hurt me more then you!
Or let them do anything without consequences?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 10, 2009 - 02:33pm PT
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News Flash Gobee: Beating your children, for ANY reason, is a sign of the
parents POOR parenting. Beating your child is SO 17th century Christian.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 10, 2009 - 02:40pm PT
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Howard:
The un-Christian nature of forcing non-Christians to obey a Christian political structure has been pointed out, as did you, many times. And it is always ignored.
But you are right. Lynne's beliefs are personal. So that is where she should keep them.
She really has to ask herself what she is trying to accomplish when she fails to do this. Were she to ask herself this, she might begin to see the problem.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 10, 2009 - 02:42pm PT
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We never hit our daughter, I agree.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YersIyzsOpc
But they need are help!
Edit; The rod in the Old Testament was for rule, as in Psalm 23:4 Thy rod and Your staff, they comfort me.
Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. “Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise), “that it may go well with you and that you may live long in the land.” Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.
The Father God loves the Son Jesus, and so should we are own children!
Sometimes the parent has to be the parent, and say no, not now, or yes.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 10, 2009 - 03:28pm PT
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"I know from my DNA that I had ancestors. The paleontologist can only hope that his fossils had descendants."
Which seems the classic scientific refutation - evidence trumping theory. A witty comeback, too.
Yeah, that's really a great line!
It is hard to believe that a separate species of Homo X could have evolved in east Asia since perhaps 150,000 BCE, but that the 'species' would still be fully able interbreed with individuals from other human 'species', and bear fertile offspring.
I think the argument the Chinese scientist was making was even stronger: that Chinese were directly and predominantly descended from East Asian H. Erectus!
H. Erectus was the most successful of all of our relatives, ever - living from 1.7 million to roughly 70,000 years ago. That's over a million and a half years - a hell of a good run! Far better than we've done thus far, in our paltry quarter of a million years on this planet. While they were around, they gave rise to every other successful hominid, including Neanderthals, and us.
With all that said - my understanding is that they lived for nearly a million years in Asia. It's not hard to believe that in that time, they could certainly have given rise to a number of other species that died out. And if Humans did come directly from African H. Erectus (rather than from African H. Heidelbergensis) it's not hard to believe that those Asian H Erectus descendants could breed with H. Sapiens when they wandered into Asia. After all, they'd both be just one hop away from H. Erectus.
But I agree - suggesting that any East Asians are directly and distinctly descended from the East Asian line of H. Erectus is a pretty huge stretch, especially without DNA backing.
GO
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 10, 2009 - 03:55pm PT
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So I am connected only by the thought of having a connection
No real connection in other words, after I am born and in my cave
Sorry, you don't get out that easily. Several billion years of evolution made you who you are, and that connection is impossible to erase.
More specifically, you are an expression of your genes, and most of those genes are identical to mine. So in a cave or not, you are programmed to be what you are, as I am to be what I am, and our programming is very very similar.
HOWEVER!!! There is a problem, and that is that the higher consciousness of humans requires social interaction to be formed. In the video Jan posted way back in the thread was a woman who was raised without language. In some ways, she is *not* connected. She is more or less incapable of communicating. She is, in a fundamental way, not part of the human community.
GO
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 10, 2009 - 06:13pm PT
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Scientist know all the information is not in about the physical world and stay open and know there is still more that could change the past undiscovered
where do you draw the line? between the physical and non-physical?
if the non-physical affects the physical, then it is physical, no?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 10, 2009 - 06:45pm PT
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Thanks, HowweirdDean.
A storm hits and washes over the forest. It leaves in it's wake destruction, but along with destruction fresh washed air, replenished rivers and streams and nourishment for the land.
A huge wind blows in the desert. It scours the earth, rock and vegetation.
It clears away the dross and makes things new and clean.
When Dan died, well that was my storm/wind. I watched death, experienced death and it was shattering to participate in the death of my best friend.
As I then tried to go forward with my life I found that for me, I had to first go backward. I started with death. I asked myself, "what is Important ?"
For me there were only two things. God, if he indeed existed, and people. Power, fame, money, things, position, work were Nothing, are nothing when you see death and begin to understand the brevity of each persons life. (Oops, I forgot sex, drugs and rock and roll. Not meaning to be funny but they can be quite consuming.)
After intense soul searching I found that my jesus was still there and indeed People were the priority. I began to get rid of the wrappings in my life physically and philosophically. The wind and storm had come and got rid of much of the extraneous brain and thing stuff. The word simplify and simplicity became very important to me.
I saw clearly it was not my life or calling to judge others. I did not realize how very often each day I was guilty of this and I did not realize how strongly jesus felt about this until I spent many hours with him and the bible over the past 22 months.
Did you know that in Proverbs 6: 16 it says the lord hates 7 things ...."a proud look, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, plotting wrong/evil schemes, eagerness to do wrong, a false witness, and sowing discord among bros."
Interesting. Have heard few messages on these topics. (I wonder why we pick and choose what and who we attack.) Reading the new testament part of the bible it's not so much about attacking and judging people as it is caring and loving your bro and your enemy.
The "famous at many weddings" I Corinthians 13 ends by saying ..."three things remain....faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."
Even tho the Bible has a ton to say about faith and hope the greatest is love. That's my jesus .....love. He loves lynnie and cared enough to rescue me when I could Not do it on my own. Peace.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 10, 2009 - 07:16pm PT
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Dr. F, what if God were at the bottom and the top ? :D jess asking cause I think he is.
I have thoroughly enjoyed reading all the posts and learned much. I'm not sure exactly how the earth and the universe were formed or how long it took. I'm not sure about us, except we are here. I guess my bottom line is that God from the up down or down up did it. How I don't know. Could be all or some of the theories and hypotheses expressed on this Thread were enjoined in the action.
All these ideas are very significant to many and I understand now much better why and respect why it is so important.
As individuals we all bend to a different breeze depending on where we are planted and what kind of tree we are. People today, now, this moment are my calling. But I totally respect the science and the scientists that have their own whispers of wind pulling them along the path to discovery.
Ciao, lynnie
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Oct 10, 2009 - 07:45pm PT
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The beard scratchers have written tons on this subject.
for instance:
RELIGION is not in a robust state of health
in modern civilization..
...been in a perennial state of decay in those
circles of society in which physical ease and
cultural advantages combine to make
intellectual scruples more pressing than moral
ones...
Extreme orthodoxy betrays by its very frenzy
that the poison of scepticism has entered the soul
of the church; for men insist most vehemently upon
their certainties when their hold upon them has
been shaken...
From: Does Civilization need Religion -1927
http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=74098575
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 10, 2009 - 09:00pm PT
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GO covered my initial thoughts, that our very genetic makeup has been determined by our social interconnection. Genes related to speech, etc, all are literally a part of us, whether or not we use them, and they come from the genetic assembly that defines our species.
On my walk I also thought that the question Dr. F poses is nonsensical in a very important way, were we to be born and dropped in the cave, we would die without some societal support. This issue, the "cost" of raising children, is an essential part of our societal relationship. It is one of the biggest issues between female and male. The fact is that we are not ready to be independent of our parents and community until relatively old. You cannot be "unconnected" and survive.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 10, 2009 - 09:21pm PT
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I can vouch for that Ed Hartouni. One must stay connected to past or current (or both) connections and/or find new connections as life unfolds ...connections are not just important, they are necessary.
Cheers and thanks yo all for your connectedness. It has been life, joy, adventure and peace to this gal. lynnie
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin' place
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Oct 10, 2009 - 09:38pm PT
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Join me in a moment of irreverence.
A crowd was preparing to stone a woman who had been caught committing adultery.
Jesus tried to stop them by saying, “let whoever is without sin among you, cast the first stone.”
Just then a stone came flying from the back of the crowd and struck the woman.
Jesus blurted out, “Mother, I’m trying to make a point here.”
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 10, 2009 - 09:43pm PT
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It may be funny, Wanda, but it ain't truth. Don't want anyone thinkin' it is. Jesus saved that gal, running the self righteousness stone throwers off.... and the gal weren't his momma. :D
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Oct 10, 2009 - 10:35pm PT
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Hey, what's that I just picked out of my nose?
EDIT
My apologies. It's 3:30 in the morning and I can't sleep.
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MH2
climber
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Oct 10, 2009 - 10:51pm PT
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Has anyone here read Martin Gardner's book, Why I am not an Atheist?
I haven't but I suspect he has something of interest to say.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Oct 10, 2009 - 11:13pm PT
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"wise men don't know how it is to
be thick as a brick"
corollary: --the upside is the 'thick' can be
easily tricked
into voting for anything/anyone.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 11, 2009 - 01:02am PT
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Ed - I couldn't agree more. We're as much a social animal as bees or wolves.
Individually, despite our relatively large size as animals, we're pretty pathetically weak, slow, and fragile. But together, we quite literally rule the world.
Well... aside from the bugs. Maybe it's the cockroaches who rule the world, but you gotta admit, we're at least a close second?
GO
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 11, 2009 - 01:03am PT
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Ed said: "If the non-physical affects the physical, then it is physical, no?"
Well, it's Saturday night and time to let my mind run - this could get dangerous . . .
The words "exist," "real," and so on all concern what I was earlier refering to as content, stuff, things, material which science can measuere, with this "content" extending to include qualities, aspects, dependent, independent and random variables, and so forth. Whatever the mind can postulate, it ("stuff") "exists" in some "real" (measurable) way, or at any rate, "it" can be said to have a presence or relationship to "real" and material things.
Now when we normally think of brain or mind, we think in terms of a kind of mega-processor riffling off information from brain stem (sensation/instinctual), limbic (emotional/feeling) and cognititive (thinking) centers. Science will tell us that all of these have a physical footprint. All are the fruit of an evolved brain that PRODUCES the content and, by way of remarkably complex soft and hardware, produces the holographic meta functions of self-awareness, consciousness, and other such things. What's more, the thinking goes, things like awarenss are different than the brain itself in the same sense that a tune, while a real thing with a sonic signature, is different than the trumpet or a piano that "produced" it.
Now looping back to "mind," the first question is: what is the nature of mind, consciousness, awareness or any of it? Invariably you will at first get stuck on - you guessed it: content. What's with the thoughts? How does the brain yada yada. Eventually, if you can get quiet enough for long enough, you realize that all thoughts, things, as well as the brain that creates them, are impermanent. They all come and go. Some might complain that, say, the laws of physics are in fact permanent, but of course said laws have no "existence" seperae from the stuff from which the law is derived. The law in fact IS the stuff - the seperation only exists as an idea, not a physical fact.
If you claim for instance that there is a "non-material" non-thing called gravity, that exists seperate from apples falling off trees and collapsing stars and dark matter, even here you're stuck with a hypothetical particle called a graviton - which is said by some (doubtful) to mediate gravity. Plato (Platonic "forms") and Jung (archetypes) would disagree here, but apparently neither man every got past the content of their own minds.
Anyhow, with enough quite time you will start getting a vague sense of a no-thing from which content arises and to which it falls. Everything, including awareness itself, is a cloud arising and falling back into this emptiness. Anyone capible of watching the trajectory, arising and vanishing of thoughts know they (thoughts) are not one "thing," that they are every bit as evanescent as electrons.
Electrons, we are told, seemingly exist in different places at different points in time. It is, some insist, impossible to say where the electron will be at a given time, just as it is impossible to say what thought will arise in our awareness. At time t1 the electron is at point A, then at time t2 it is at point B, yet without moving from A to B. It seems to appear in different places without describing a trajectory. Therefore, even if t1 and A can be pinpointed, it is impossible to derive t2 and B from this measurement.
In other words: There seems to be no causal relation between any two positions - a concept that makes perfect sense to anyone who has carefully watched their own thoughts, which any reductionist will assure you are the product of your evolved brain, meaning thoughts have a material footprint composed of the very electrons we've just described.
But getting back to the most interesting part: electrons seem to be able to go from point A to point B instantaneously, without pasing "through" the space/time continum. Now what the hell does this imply, really? Our tendency is to think of an elecron as a tinny weenie baseball, and if the ball travels from first base ("A") to second base ("B"), it would have to have passed through space, and take a fraction of time, to get there. But apparently an electron is not "solid" in the normal sense of the word, and it can apparently instaneously "arrive" somewhere without having "traveled." What's more, even if you could exactly peg this electron in space and time, that measurement would not detrmine the next "arrival" of the electron. While it is fairly predictible that the electron will not leave it's orbit, meaning the number 5 Camalot will not suddenly become a Stopper, there seems to be no causal link, that is, the electrons position at this moment does not cause or "produce" the following position.
So what does the Zen master mean when he says: Every moment arises instantaneously, brand new, from nowhere. This moment is not dependent on the last moment in any way whatsoever.
JL
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 11, 2009 - 01:21am PT
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I really enjoyed the last sentence about the zen master and after much directed thought over the past year think I must agree.
The zen master and the world of absolute science may not always operate on the same plane of thought, but I do believe they are both valid. If perhaps they overlapped more, the concepts of life, science, invisible life, philosophy and more would take on a fuller, greater meaning.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 11, 2009 - 01:27am PT
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It's funny that we don't do anything to keep all this going at all. Breathing happens, your heart beats.
The world spins, things grow, we rise we sleep, were at its mercy.
Most times when I'm deep in thought I forget about my body, other times I'm fully in it. Seems were just passing through.
It's all a miracle. Miracles happen at all times, by God.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 11, 2009 - 01:31am PT
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gravity exists, and there is probably a quantum theory of it for which the quantum is called the graviton... I have no doubt of it, nor does any physicist, of course....
electrons can be localized in space and time, and they do have definable momentum and energy, that isn't the point of quantum mechanics, which does an excellent job telling us what the probability that an electron will be somewhere at sometime, propelled by the electromagnetic force which is mediated by the quantum we call a photon as described, elegantly, by quantum electodynamics (QED). (I always wanted to do that! (mathematician joke)).
The description of an electron, its "state" is a bit different than what we might think if it were a billiard ball. The ball is described in space and in momentum, and moves through this state space along a trajectory which evolves in time. So if we give its position and its momentum and account for all the forces outside of the ball, we know where it's going to be at any time.
Quantum mechanics is a bit trickier. We have the state, but now we must account for all the possible paths at once, and we calculate a probability that it is in each of those states as a time unfolds. We carry all of the possible states along... once a measurement is done and we find the electron in some state, the probability that it is in the other states is zero... and we start again.
We can make a precise calculation of electrons, and any other atomic particle (and subatomic) using quantum mechanics. Our most precise theories of physics are quantum mechanical, and make predictions which are verified by experiment.
It is a poor analogy for the describing a mechanism to generate awareness. I think what we will eventually know will be much more interesting.
I was with you John as you described the separation of thought from the mechanism that produces it. You seem to say that if thought is the result of a physical mechanism, that it must be mechanistic, deterministic, etc. Of course that is not true. I do not have any problem imagining that thought is produced by an electro-chemical process that results in the flights of fancy we experience.
My suspicion of experience is quite profound, and I am ready to accept your observations of being in deep meditation. I would interpret the whole exercise as exploring just what you can do physically to alter your thought, your perception of the world. Your exercise, however, is quite real and quite measurable. The correlation of that thought with that state is also a common result, but it does not have to correspond to the physical, as you say. It can be real as thought, but it may not be any more real than that.
The interpretation of that state has been attempted by many different cultures, religions and philosophies. The key problem, as I see it, is the attempt to justify it as something outside of ourselves but not of the physical universe. My question is: does it really need to be bigger than just what is inside of us? That is marvelous enough for me...
My training as a physicist does lead me to believe that we must question what we observe and perceive, to understand it before we can use it to understand something about the physical world around us. Mind and consciousness and awareness are all the result of an evolutionary process which is far from producing a monolithically designed being. We are a patch work of things used and reused and altered for other uses... our mind and our thoughts all are a result of that, and are equally patched together... it makes figuring it out difficult, and will make the answer fascinating.
But please don't torture quantum mechanics into some mystical explanation, even in analogy, it is really a humble tool we use to approximate what we see when we look at atoms. That world is different from the one on this side of the "microscope" but we know how to get from there to here, and some of those who so journey have told the story.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 11, 2009 - 03:23am PT
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Geez, I was going to let this pass but here goes anyhow. I'm not torturing quantum mechanics, Ed. Virtually all of those thought experiments I have laid out are stolen from people in QM who constantly contrast this process with other aspects of "reality," especially consciousness. My sense of this is that while we can locate things and measure certain functions and posit predictions so forth on the quantum level, no one has the any certainty about many of the fundemental things about particles, such as how they can instantaneously appear here and there. The idea or contention that we have the qauntum game remotely dialed is to my understanding, almost total hogwash. Two of the people I ride with all the time (one workds at Cal Tech and the other at JPL) are QM nuts and I get an earfull of this stuff every ride - more than I care for since it's still content and is bacially just beginners stuff in terms of consciousness work.
"I was with you John as you described the separation of thought from the mechanism that produces it. You seem to say that if thought is the result of a physical mechanism, that it must be mechanistic, deterministic, etc. Of course that is not true. I do not have any problem imagining that thought is produced by an electro-chemical process that results in the flights of fancy we experience."
Now Ed, I've said it as plainly as I can: There is NO separation of thought from the mechanism that produces thought. Thought IS matter.
There is no separation between the thought and the "electro-chemical" pocess that "results" in cognition. There is no thought floating around disembodied and non-substantial (again, Plato and Jung would disagree) in the same sense that there is no gravity separate from the "stuff" from which the term "gravity" is derived.
As a material reductionist, you must live and die by what in philosophy they call one-way causation. In terms of the evolved brain, your are left believing that atomic activity "produces" or causes thoughts, and this causation works "one way." It does not work the other way, I.E., thinking does not "produce" or cause the existence of your actual brain matter. The reason my QM friends like to site the spontaneous arising of electrons at point A and B and so forth is that the "one way" causation just described does not seem to hold, that is, "there is no causal position between the two positions" of A and B.
But all of this is still the basic stuff, the starter stuff. The intermediate stuff is the idea that every moment arises instantaneously, brand new, from nowhere. This moment is not dependent on and was not created by the last moment in any way whatsoever.
The advanced course is that the mind and matter itself are both entirely "empty," and have no independent existence. Whatever exists, arises (like the instantaneously arrival of an electron) from and returns back to this emptiness. Awareness, consciousness, rocks, cars and brains are all content in this regard. So the question then becomes: what is the nature of this emptiness?
JL
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Oct 11, 2009 - 05:06am PT
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"Athiests have the lowest crime rate as a group of all religions"
"Athiests were also found to have a higher level of ethical standard which they live their lives"
"Fact"
There are, in fact, no well grounded studies that prove atheists are less or more prone to crime and ethical behavior than the religious. There are more people in prison who claim a religion than people who assume atheist beliefs. But that statistic can hardly be used to draw useful conclusions since there are more people in the U.S. population who claim religion than atheism.
Religion attracts desperate individuals in a society because it offers them comfort. And desperate people are much more likely to commit crimes than those who are not desperate. But desperate people tend to ignore the ethics and "do unto others" part of religion, thus aren't truly converted or commited to a religious faith.
Such studies are usually flawed with poor procedures and irrelevant data. Terms like "crime", "atheist", "Christian" are loose terms with indefinite, hazy boundaries. Often those conducting such studies already have a purpose in mind and slant the data that supports their point of view. The demographics and data examination methods are not mentioned. White collar crimes, such as tax evasion, mail fraud are harder to detect and thus many get away with these offenses, which farther confuses the question since atheist numbers tend to be higher among white collar workers.
And the conclusions wrought by these studies are commonly rife with logical fallacies.
Logical fallacy? Consider this:
No one is born believing in God....
So everyone is born atheist
All criminals were born
Thus all criminals are atheist (or were at some time in their life)
"Surely atheism should be outlawed, especially among infants !"
or:
Josef Stalin, Atheist, 20 to 60 million dead
Adolph Hitler, Atheist, 26 million dead
Fidel Castro, Atheist, 1 million dead
Kim Il Sung, Atheist, 5 million dead
Mao Tse Tung, Atheist, 40 million dead
Pol Pot, Atheist, 2.5 million dead
Pope John Paul, Christian, 0 dead
Pat Robertson, Christian, 0 dead
Mel Gibson, Christian, 0 dead
Jackie Joyner, Christian, 0 dead
Sean Hannity, Christian, 0 dead
Lynne Leichtfuss, Christian, 0 dead
"When will people get it ? Atheism= Mass Murder !"
.......apples and oranges? Cherry picking? Logical fallacies? Those fruit sour and corrupt any bowl.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 11, 2009 - 06:15am PT
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JL and Ed-
Here's a book I found that would seem made for the both of you.
The Black Hole War: My Battle with Stephen Hawking to Make the World Safe for Quantum Mechanics.
Author- Leonard Susskind
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Oct 11, 2009 - 07:41am PT
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Jennie, that is totally stupid.
So since I am an atheist I am going to kill millions? Religions have killed multi-millions. You totally cherry picked headcases who have committed genocide to suit your agenda/argument.
Mel Gibson? I am totally rolling on the floor laughing my ass off. Where did that one come from? Just for example.
I tell you what Jennie, you believe what you want and leave me alone.
And BTW you ponce, Hitler was not an atheist. Get your facts right.
I would guess that you are coming from left field big time but you no doubt are a right-whinging right-twit coming from RIGHT field.
Go shoot a fecking elk or something, just don't make it a human. You are really weird.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 11, 2009 - 09:39am PT
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GO climb-
In regard to your last set of questions:
I went back and watched the video on the big bang of the mind again and reread some fossil data to be sure I had my dates right. Consequently, I think your questions are based on a misunderstanding of some of the dates (in fact I had to back up the video track several times to make sure I understood them correctly).
Homo erectus was extinct by 400,000 years ago not 70,000
Homo heidelbergensis was 500,00 - 200,000
Homo habilis, H. ergaster, and H. rhodensiensis are are all specimens whose place is not entirely understood and are controversial.
Homo sapiens is dated 195,000 from Africa first
Homo sapiens did not leave Africa until 50,000 (the most agreed upon date) and not earlier than 60,0000 (you had 100,000).
The narrator of the video states "60,000 years ago our species began leaving Africa....they had begun a revolutionary way of life". Later Prof. Klein from Stanford stated, "50,000 years ago a neurological change took place, perhaps the result of a mutation".
Whether the neurological change took place at 50,000 or 60,000, the assumption by everyone on the video and everything I have read, is that the change took place in Africa before H. sapiens left. The video states the oldest beads are found in the Middle East, but subsequently beads dated at 70,000 were found in Africa.
The video claims the oldest rock art known is 34,000 from the caves in France and that this art represented a breakthrough (in art) not in the brain.
A really wonderful video about the journey out of Africa that I would highly recommend is produced by PBS and is called The Human Journey. It features Spencer Wells who is now working for National Geographic on the Genographic DNA project and follows him as he first visits the Bushmen of the Kalahari desert in Africa who are the oldest surviving human group on the planet at this point in time, through the Middle East to Eurasia, Europe, Siberia, and the Americas. It's my all time favorite anthro video and you'll come away from it in total awe of our ancestors and proud to be a human.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Oct 11, 2009 - 10:09am PT
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HowweirdDean, bull sh#t. my reading comprehension is fine. Atheism = mass murder, is that not what she wrote after the 'diatribe' she posted? I read her post just fine and I am familiar with her other posts in the past.
I was born and baptized a Catholic, grew up and became an agnostic and I am now an atheist, and some person says that my belief equals mass murder? Perhaps it is your comprehension that should come into question.
If I recall correctly, freedom of expression and religion (or not) was one of the Founding Fathers' guiding principles.
And if calling her weird is name calling, so be it. Nah nah nah nah nah. :-)
EDIT
How much has religion played a part in all the wars that human kind have gone through? And how many deaths? And Atheism = mass murder???????
Go figure. And go bow before the likes of Robertson and Falwell. Unless I am mistaken (totally possible but unlikely) Jennie worships these people. Heh heh heh. Go to bed HowweirdDean.
It is actually sunny here today, sort of, so I am going climbing. Now you brush your teeth, say your prayers and go to bed. Or tele-transport yourself to Dalkey and we'll go climbing together. Cheers.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Oct 11, 2009 - 10:23am PT
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That does is Howweird, I am going on a mass killing spree. Every bloody slug and snail in my yard has had it.
Lighten up, I'm having fun, how about you?
Now I am off to the rocks (just a couple of minutes away), having just put a leg of lamb in the oven (horrors). I know the quarry will be packed today, as it is more or less sunny (okay, there are some clouds, actually a lot of clouds) but it is dry, a weekend and the crags get packed under these conditions. So I will just boulder, and know that I am fortunate to live within walking distance to a good climbing area.
Now you can comprehend that, can't you? See you on the stone someday mate (if I can call you 'mate').
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Oct 11, 2009 - 10:28am PT
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I am God. I created everything. Debate over, now please carry on.
But seriously, people create and destroy god all the time. How can that not exist?
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Oct 11, 2009 - 10:34am PT
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hey wack n dangle, are you sure it isn't dangle and wack?
I do miss California but Ireland isn't that bad. But Yosemite is the Chosen Place. Sort of.
EDIT
Anyway, even though I do not know her, except through her posts, I like Jennie, if for no other reason but she spells her name that same as 'my' Jennie. I believe in people, not religions, and there are a whole lot of good people on the Taco Stand.
It is sort of funny though that when I was nine I wanted to be the first American Pope. Guess that's not going to happen (I was an altar boy at the time, and no, the priests did not molest me).
When I was ten I wanted to be an astronaut. That doesn't look promising either.
I guess I am always looking to the heavens for one reason or another.
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Oct 11, 2009 - 10:40am PT
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Pat
Played my hand aid climbing. Now I just throw for holds, slap them if lucky, and rest on the rope.
Cheers!
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jstan
climber
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Oct 11, 2009 - 11:56am PT
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"Religion attracts desperate individuals in a society because it offers them comfort. And desperate people are much more likely to commit crimes than those who are not desperate. But desperate people tend to ignore the ethics and "do unto others" part of religion, thus aren't truly converted or commited to a religious faith."
It seems to me Jennie is saying here desperate people are more likely to commit crimes
but (she thinks) they don't follow the golden rule and so are not really religious.
Through this evaluation of her's you can logically prove the conclusion that any "religious" person who commits a crime is not really religious.
What am I missing?
An even larger number of people, all non-criminals in both categories, probably fall into the category of those not following the golden rule, assuming one could come up with a method of determining the fact.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 11, 2009 - 12:42pm PT
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I don't quite know how to respond, John, except to say that not only did I fail your elementary course, but I wasn't very attentive in my physics classes, either...
thanks for you patience over the years. My conclusion is that I do not and cannot understand any of it.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 11, 2009 - 01:47pm PT
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What holds true today will be false tomorrow.
What holds false tomorrow will again hold true in the future.
Absolute truth holds true eternally even after the annihilation of the entire material cosmic manifestation.
After the restart of the entire material cosmic manifestation the Absolute truth still holds true and never changes.
The Absolute truth, Summon Bonum, in it's absolute topmost position is a person.
The human body is composed of many material elements, still it's a person.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 11, 2009 - 02:00pm PT
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It's fun believing in the Easter bunny and the tooth fairy too. Gives one a certain peace of mind.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 11, 2009 - 02:15pm PT
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The absolute truth never changes. I agree. It's a thought of not only comfort but great peace and joy when grasped by the heart or as eastern thought calls it the chee.
It's a thought that brings sanity out of the chaos of this planet. Chaos that can begin as simply as a harsh word between brothers which ignited turns into an inferno because it is not smothered with forgiveness. It has the potential to thus end in holocausts, body bombs, wars and nuclear attacks.
I'd venture to say that the concept of forgiveness is an absolute truth.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 11, 2009 - 02:47pm PT
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Jim, I respectfully disagree. I don't think forgiveness comes soley from a learned creed. I have read a few books on primitive cultures. Depicted were the differences between tribes that held grudges and handed them down for generations vs. those that chose to "forgive", get past the hurt, problem or not bear a grudge or retaliate.
One is never obliged to forgive. It must come from the chee or heart.
It is something each individual must work out in their own situation, in their own life unfolding story, imho.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 11, 2009 - 03:35pm PT
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Patrick Sawyer, you really did either misread, or worse - purposefully misrepresent - what Jennie stated.
GO
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 11, 2009 - 04:12pm PT
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Jan - thanks so much, again, for your response! Seems like there's a lot of disagreement, yet, on a few of the details. Especially regarding H. Erectus. Some sources stated that the species died out 70,000 years ago, some say 200,000 years ago, and you're stating 400,000 years ago. That's a big discrepancy!
Anyway, yeah, so I just re-watched parts of the video, and I agree that they're pretty clear about the first waves of H. Sapiens leaving Africa around 60,000 years ago, and the best evidence for the "great leap forward" starting around 50,000 years ago. That's much closer than I was stating, and certainly close enough to leave wiggle room for the idea that the humans leaving Africa were already "great leaping", we just haven't happened to have found early evidence for it yet.
GO
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 11, 2009 - 04:36pm PT
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On Discovery TV tonight @ 9:00 pm Discovering Ardi will be on.
Werner is right, we know in part so what we think is right can change with new info and back again with more. But absolute truth never changes and that is God. When we come to be with Him are hope, we will be changed to be like Him.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 11, 2009 - 05:07pm PT
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The Ascension
So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”
The Resurrection of Christ
Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
The Resurrection of the Dead
Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.
But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf? Why are we in danger every hour? I protest, brothers, by my pride in you, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die every day! What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.” Do not be deceived: "Bad company ruins good morals.” Wake up from your drunken stupor, as is right, and do not go on sinning. For some have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame.
The Resurrection Body
But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
Mystery and Victory
I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 11, 2009 - 05:25pm PT
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Now may be the appropriate time to repost something that shows up here in religious discussions from time to time. Its origin is attributed to various sources, but doesn't really matter. The heart of it is that while Christians (and Jews, and Muslims, and others) often quote their holy book as final authority in whatever subject is being debated, they ignore the fact that much of what is in these books is, well, questionable to say the least.
The generally accepted story is that it first showed up as a letter to the well-known talk-show host Dr. Laura in response to her quoting the bible as proof that homosexuality was an abomination.
If, after reading this, one of you religious folks could explain to me why I should take the bible (or any of the holy books) seriously, I'd sure appreciate it.
Anyway, here goes...
"Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:
When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
 - - - - - - - - - -
Okay, the letter is kind of humorous, but I would appreciate a serious response.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 11, 2009 - 05:34pm PT
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Well, as a serious response....my friend jesus came to this planet and made it clear with his arrival the old things were finished, the law that you quoted from the old testament was replaced by two things.....to love God and to love your neighbor.....who is your neighbor....everyone.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 11, 2009 - 05:41pm PT
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So does that mean (in your opinion) that the old testament part of the bible is no longer authoritative, while the new testament part is still to be accepted without question?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 11, 2009 - 06:11pm PT
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Ghost,
Jesus is God's Son in the flesh, who came to take away the sins of the world and give us life. We all need His forgiveness, for example, all sins of the flesh separates us from His Spirit. The body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. So adultery, fornication, and homosexuality, are equally grieving God's Spirit. We can't continue in these life styles and stay in His will. But He is faithful and forgives us all when we ask Him to in Jesus name. You can live for the flesh, or you can live for God, but we need to do it in His power not are own.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Oct 11, 2009 - 06:23pm PT
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Gobee,
You used to be such a nice boy, back when Russ, Roy and I had you cleaning the Low Voltage Zero Gravity Taint Abrader orbs after ever trip back from the Mussy Nebula! What the hell happened to you? You are just begging for a full-court Photoshopping, you know?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 11, 2009 - 06:27pm PT
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"So does that mean (in your opinion) that the old testament part of the bible is no longer authoritative, while the new testament part is still to be accepted without question?"
Yes! In the OT, there were sacrifices every year of killing bulls and goats, for the forgiving of sins. Since Jesus was God, his death on the cross, only needed to happen once to forgive all sin, to please the Father, and by faith God excepts Jesus sacrifice for are punishment. Jesus took are place!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 11, 2009 - 06:32pm PT
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Gobee, that's all very nice, but it really doesn't address my question about the authority of the bible. Presumably (correct me if I'm wrong) your view that god finds homosexuality, adultery, and fornication to be abominations comes from the bible. But how can you say the bible should govern our lives in those areas, but not others. If the bible says it is not okay to engage in homosexual activities, but it is okay to sell my daughters into slavery, how can you assert the bible's authority in the first instance, but say it is wrong (or out of date, or whatever) in the second.
What I'm getting at here is that it seems that most Christians (and believers in other religions) take a completely indefensible approach to their holy books. Quoting the bible as absolute authority where it suits their personal feelings, but dismissing it as not relevant where it doesn't match their personal feelings.
I'm not trying to be mean-spirited here, but I truly am baffled by how you, or anyone, can say "The bible is the word of god, it must be obeyed", but then qualify that statement with something along the lines of "except where it doesn't have to be obeyed."
Help me out here.
Edit: your second post came through while I was still writing this. So I guess what you're saying is that we can throw out the old testament but must treat the new testament as absolutely authoritative. Since I know that there are more than a few Jews in the world who would disagree with you, how do I decide who to believe? You, because you say you know the real score? Them, because they say they know the real score?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 11, 2009 - 06:35pm PT
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So Gobee, Jesus HAD to die on the cross to PLEASE his "father"?
His father could not be "pleased" in some other, non violent, manner?
What the hell kind of father gets pleasure from his son's suffering?
No way good old god could have figured things out better than that?
And why did it take god six days to create the earth?
Surely he could have just snapped his finger in an instant?
And why was god SO tired that had to "rest" on the seventh day?
Doesn't all this sound like a MAN made this all up?
You still believe in the tooth fairy and santa?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 11, 2009 - 06:45pm PT
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In my opinion, Ghost, jesus fulfilled all the rules/laws of the o.t. But he did not say to 86 the o.t. There are many encouraging, wonderful words that keep me going....many are found in the Psalms and Proverbs.
The book of Ruth is about two widows and how God took care of them. This has been a great comfort to lynne in the past two years losing my best friend and provider along with being thrown into the chaos of these economic times.
Ghost, you say, "accepted without question." I don't believe blindly. God/jesus and I have slugged it out over the years in what he says vs. what has happened in my life. Like everyone, life has been extremely difficult at times over the course of a lifetime.
Jesus not only does not mind my questions, of which there have been MANY especially over the past two years, but he encourages me to bring them honestly to him. "Hey," he says to lynnie, "I know your heart anyway, might as well be honest and dialogue with me."
That's what I love so much about my friend jesus. Psalm 145:18 says, " The Lord is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth."
And in the n.t. James says in 4:8 "Come near to God and He will come near to you."
So if you want to know jesus just say "howdy, I truthfully want to know you" and then come near to him like you do your human friends and stay near.
That's it on a beautiful Sunday in So Cal. I am now going into the grate outdoors for a bit. lynnie :DD
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 11, 2009 - 06:48pm PT
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Gobee, Dude, yo getting carried away :DDDD that was my question to answer from Ghost......kidding, kinda. Breathe Gobee, breathe.
Edit: you list adultry, fornication and homosexuality....what about gossip, lying and slandering....in the n.t. these are listed as just as bad...why do not all, but quite a few trip on the sex stuff ? Because they don't physically do it so they can go, "oh, well, I'm cool with that. I pass the test."
I think it's because people lie and gossip many times each day and they just don't want to see it as just as bad. imho
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 11, 2009 - 06:48pm PT
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I would rather be found wrong then not to trust in God!
From 10/2/09;
Yes I believe God made us and the worlds as He said He did in Genesis. But I know He could have made it in an instant, just like in I Dream of Jeannie, blink, blink, POOF! However He took His time because He enjoyed Himself and to show us that we should to and also rest from are labor and give thanks to Him!
God made everything to fit His purpose, it's not an accident. Look at the heavens you can set a clock to them! All this is just the work of His fingers, and the earth is His footstool.
Bump to Lynne;
two things.....to love God and to love your neighbor.....who is your neighbor....everyone.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 11, 2009 - 06:54pm PT
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Watching the believers here preach at the non-believers is a bit like watching someone trying to teach a pig to waltz. It wastes their time, annoys the pig, and gets them muddy. And is almost inevitably tiresome.
Preaching (all types) is quite inappropriate to this venue.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 11, 2009 - 06:56pm PT
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Unfortunately this is not correct:
Since Jesus was God, his death on the cross, only needed to happen once to forgive all sin, to please the Father
Jesus is not God, never was nor ever will. He was son like all the rest of the living entities which are part parcel of the lord.
God can't please the father since he's already the Supreme father. God is not subordinate to anayone, he always maintains his absolute Supremacy.
Technically speaking Jesus Christ was a satyavesa avatar, nita siddha, eternally liberated soul, not ordinary, who descended from the spiritual stratum to re-establish the bonafide religious principles.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 11, 2009 - 07:00pm PT
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"So Gobee, Jesus HAD to die on the cross to PLEASE his "father"?
His father could not be "pleased" in some other, non violent, manner?
What the hell kind of father gets pleasure from his son's suffering?
No way good old god could have figured things out better than that?"
God didn't have to send his Son but then we could not be with Him because are sin would be unforgiven (for God is Holy), so God sent His Son Jesus, who new no sin because He LOVES US and wants us to be with Him!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 11, 2009 - 07:04pm PT
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Mighty Hiker -- "Preaching (all types) is quite inappropriate to this venue."
Then why are YOU preaching.
Trying to censor user input about what you dislike always seemed to be your spiel.
Besides -- Ghost presented excellent critical thinking in his questions.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 11, 2009 - 07:14pm PT
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The Word Became Flesh
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.
Edit;
When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
It's God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 11, 2009 - 07:23pm PT
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This is hard for me to say, but I gotta admit that I'm with Werner here. Preaching is not inappropriate in this thread. Quite the contrary. This is a thread devoted to religious belief, so why shouldn't someone take the opportunity to preach his or her beliefs?
Mostly I'd rather not be preached at, but if I choose to enter a thread about religion and ask questions of believers, I can hardly complain when they answer. And it's also worth pointing out that most of the unpleasant, forceful preaching here has not come from the religious folks, but from the non-believers.
So if Gobee or Lynn or someone else starts getting nasty, then sure, I'll chime in and tell them to keep it civil or shut up. But until then, I'm happy to have the opportunity to hear what they have to say.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 11, 2009 - 09:38pm PT
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gosh ghost, just got back from the great outdoors. The earth still retains and remains beauty and beautiful. Ideas here continue to be exchanged and that also is beautiful. I want you to know I listen and ponder as well as post.
Breathing, flowing, thinking,.... living in the moment and the day along with enjoying the life given you and the people around you contains the simple peace I think we were made for. Jess a thought on a lovely evening.
(and now back to the IRS .... must complete tonight .....deadline 10/15. So where do life's pressures come from ? not god, if he indeed exists. And you know how I feel about that. :D lynnie)
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MH2
climber
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Oct 11, 2009 - 10:03pm PT
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This thread fascinates me in large part because religion and how the brain works are two subjects that any sane person would leave alone.
There are questions in both with no definitive answer and not from lack of trying.
You should feel at least a little humility when brains as sharp as Sir Francis Crick and Roger Penrose have turned their attention to how the mind works.
http://www.consciousentities.com/penrose.htm
It is reasonable to ask what form a thought has just before you become aware of it, but quantum fluctuations coming up into the macro world by way of microtubules is pretty speculative.
By the way, it was reported somewhere that Terry Pratchett, who suffers from Alzheimer's, had "found God." This would be newsworthy for someone who has parodied religion the way he has. According to the man himself, "It is highly unlikely that I have found God since I can't even find my car keys, despite considerable empirical evidence that they exist."
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Oct 11, 2009 - 11:26pm PT
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"It seems to me Jennie is saying here desperate people are more likely to commit crimes"
"but (she thinks) they don't follow the golden rule and so are not really religious."
"Through this evaluation of her's you can logically prove the conclusion that any "religious" person who commits a crime is not really religious."
"What am I missing"?
"An even larger number of people, all non-criminals in both categories, probably fall into the category of those not following the golden rule, assuming one could come up with a method of determining the fact."
What I was suggesting, Jstan, is placing desperate individuals who profess religion, but commit crimes adverse to that religion’s teachings, in the same category as those who attempt sincere application of religious ethics, will not accord congruent data or circumstance to make a relevant judgement. Religion is much more than professing a belief in God or announcing to the world that you’ve “been saved.” Ethical purpose should go with assertion of belief.
I wouldn’t place a decent person such as Lynne in the same category as a headline making serial killer who claims to be hearing voices from heaven. Why characterize ALL religious people together with those who broadcast their rapport with God yet conduct themselves unjustly toward their fellow humans?
Similarly, why collate the deeds of criminal atheists with the greater part of the atheist population who live by community law and deal with others fairly?
It seems many, on both sides of this issue, want to typify divergent belief systems as evil and define them by the actions of hateful and destructive individuals whom, in spirit and deed, they have little in common.
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WanderlustMD
Trad climber
New England
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Oct 11, 2009 - 11:28pm PT
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My 2c:
Both sides of this argument are equally meaningless.
No matter what you think you know...you really don't know for sure.
So...what are you arguing for?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 11, 2009 - 11:34pm PT
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So...what are you arguing for?
I agree, arguing is stupid. I also agree that I'm stupid.
But it still doesn't mean no one knows.
Since you don't know, that's why you think no one else knows.
rolls eyes
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 12, 2009 - 01:19am PT
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WanderlustMD, for an educated person I'm kinda surprised you call this arguing. I suppose some is, but mostly it's an exchange of ideas. I know I have learned much since I have participated on this forum the past 20+ months and it has had a significant impact on my life philosophies. There are many gifted people here and they provide information in their areas of expertise. One listens, learns and lives. :D Peace, lynne
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 12, 2009 - 01:25am PT
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I like your questions Jim Brennan. I know we are all unique and created with different skills and personalities. For me I would rather learn to be a good Samaritan and turn the other cheek and learn about grace and forgiveness than do my pretty complex IRS paperwork.
For others,,,,,they would have breezed through this months ago......loser here. Love people but find it really hard to focus on numbers and forms and yadayada. Not my calling.
But at 10:30pm I think I will have it wrapped up in @ 2 more hours. Focus gal, focus. Smiles......
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 12, 2009 - 01:48am PT
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Lynne-
Once again we find ourselves in a common situation! I too have to get my IRS filed by Oct. 15 as there are no more extensions left. My story is that I misplaced my W-4 and thought I would find it by now. Put it somewhere so safe, I've forgotten where (if only my house weren't being renovated). I just hate to give up and ask my employer for another copy, especially since I don't owe any tax.
Meanwhile, in Okinawa, when stuff goes missing we blame it on a mischeivious elf named Kijimuna. He seems to be especially fond of me!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 12, 2009 - 03:20am PT
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So Jan, when I put something in a safe place it is always the obvious, smart place, the organized place.....then I generally out think myself. So just think, where would I put this ....you will find it.
Kijimuna is not just a guest of mine, but a regular in my home. :DDD
Edit: Jan I will read your links, but lots of life happening so if I do not do it soon have patience. Peace from a friend.......
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 12, 2009 - 04:27am PT
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Lynne-
I owe you an email anyway.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 12, 2009 - 12:16pm PT
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Jennie wrote: I wouldn’t place a decent person such as Lynne in the same category as a headline making serial killer who claims to be hearing voices from heaven. Why characterize ALL religious people together with those who broadcast their rapport with God yet conduct themselves unjustly toward their fellow humans?
Similarly, why collate the deeds of criminal atheists with the greater part of the atheist population who live by community law and deal with others fairly?
You're just defining bad people who love Jesus out of existence! You're claiming that if they are "real" Christians, that they couldn't possibly be bad people. That may help keep your numbers looking good, but can't you see how ridiculous it sounds?
See, here's the thing - some other religions don't work like this, but most Christian sects define a Christian as someone who has accepted Jesus as his/her personal savior. Period. You have NO right to claim that someone isn't a Christian when she says she is. NONE. It's antithetical to the very roots of your religion to do so.
On to your next point. As an atheist, I have no problem with the fact that some other atheists have done heinous crimes. My atheism is not a "tribe" in which I claim that "we" are good and "others" are wicked. I have no use for such nonsense. A person is as good or bad as their actions. Period. Which/how many gods they claim to believe in has nothing to do with it.
Now, could it be that more Atheists are, on average, good, and more religious people are, on average, more wicked? (Or vice versa.) Perhaps. But if so, attributing causality (did their religion make them wicked, did their wickedness drive them to religion, or did some third factor cause both their wickedness and their religion) is impossible to determine. And claiming to know how that causality works for the world population is clearly ridiculous.
Cheers,
GO
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 12, 2009 - 01:20pm PT
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Fattrad, I'm not even going to get into the whole long history of Jewish Atheists. Then again, I don't think you'd like them - probably consider them all commies and socialists.
GO
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Redlands
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Oct 12, 2009 - 01:40pm PT
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"God didn't have to send his Son but then we could not be with Him because are sin would be unforgiven (for God is Holy), so God sent His Son Jesus, who new no sin because He LOVES US and wants us to be with Him!"
If you could harness the energy of the cognitive dissonance required to write the above, you'd be able to power the entire western U.S. for a month or two.
You describe a situation where there are natural laws created outside the dictates of your GOD, which GOD must obey (in this case some weird dictate that sins must be forgiven for us to be with god, neatly skipping the obvious fact that God could forgive anyone for any reason with no sacrificial bloodshed required. After all, who does he answer to? The fact that your GOD is bound by a law which he is not free to violate thereby renders him/it less than all-powerful and by that definition perhaps not "GOD" at all.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 12, 2009 - 02:04pm PT
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Makes sense to me, but then I've read about Christ from India's perspective already (see my own book recommendations above).
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 12, 2009 - 02:20pm PT
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Dr F -- "As evolution has revealed, that everything starts at the bottom, and as it evolves (or progresses) forward, it become more complex."
"Therefore there is no God at the top, above it all making anything happening"
The sun is the king of the planets, the materialist can understand this simple fact.
Without the illumination of the sun first Dr F would never even begin to have any knowledge whatsoever .....
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 12, 2009 - 02:22pm PT
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Is there any reason to treat creationism as anything more than superstious nonsense?
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jstan
climber
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Oct 12, 2009 - 02:35pm PT
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I could not find the source for this:
"God didn't have to send his Son but then we could not be with Him because are sin would be unforgiven (for God is Holy), so God sent His Son Jesus, who new no sin because He LOVES US and wants us to be with Him!"
This requires some interpretation (added).
"God didn't have to send his Son but then(in that case) we could (would) not be with Him(God) because are(our) sin would be unforgiven (for God is Holy)(sic). So God sent His Son Jesus who new (knew) no sin, because He (God) LOVES US and wants us to be with Him (God)!"
I call attention to Lincoln's rebuke of Stephen Douglass's claim that Lincoln "wanted" to destroy slavery. In the debates Lincoln said something like(I know you are out there Kerwin), "When the Honorable Senator Douglass tells you my intention, he tells you something he cannot know."
We have no way of knowing God's intention. It may be God felt Jesus was a good money manager and that that talent was more needed on earth than it was in Heaven (cf. George Carlin).
There may well be more that can be said about this quote but its logical constructs are more than I can handle right now. Perhaps later.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 12, 2009 - 02:41pm PT
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Dr. F, How come no one thanked the devil for winning the climbing comp?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 12, 2009 - 02:42pm PT
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Only in a polarized (part cutting edge, part medieval) country like America would a post like this generate so much debate.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 12, 2009 - 02:43pm PT
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"Name on thing that started out already fully formed, and did not undergo evolution or change?"
You have to be kidding Dr. F?
Log on to supertopo. Click on just about anything.
And yes, Jim has a point. One question though.
How do I get rid of this big black swelling on my neck?
Its beginning to hurt.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 12, 2009 - 02:44pm PT
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Dr F -- Name on thing that started out already fully formed, and did not undergo evolution or change?
God
From Bg: introduction:
The subject of the Bhagavad-gītā entails the comprehension of five basic truths.
First of all, the science of God is explained and then the constitutional position of the living entities, jīvas.
There is īśvara, which means controller, and there are jīvas, the living entities which are controlled.
If a living entity says that he is not controlled but that he is free, then he is insane.
The living being is controlled in every respect, at least in his conditioned life.
So in the Bhagavad-gītā the subject matter deals with the īśvara, the supreme controller, and the jīvas, the controlled living entities.
Prakṛti (material nature) and time (the duration of existence of the whole universe or the manifestation of material nature) and karma (activity) are also discussed.
The cosmic manifestation is full of different activities. All living entities are engaged in different activities.
From Bhagavad-gītā we must learn what God is, what the living entities are, what prakrti is, what the cosmic manifestation is and how it is controlled by time, and what the activities of the living entities are.
So we have your argument,Dr F, and the Veda, which will it be, the absolute truth?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 12, 2009 - 02:51pm PT
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jstan-
It's only when your tongue turns black and you start to grow horns that you have to worry!
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jstan
climber
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Oct 12, 2009 - 02:58pm PT
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Whew! I was getting worried Jan. Everyone coming into my room has been wearing these chicken beak masks.
And yes Dr. F. Lots of change here. Jeff has already indicated he is up for being Secretary of the Treasury under Obama.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 12, 2009 - 03:03pm PT
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I agree that, "God is not subordinate to anyone, he always maintains his absolute Supremacy."
Jesus was the only one to rise from the dead (on the third day), except whom He raised Himself (Lazarus).
Only God can do that! When He healed the blind, sick, and lame, sometimes before He did, He said your sins are forgiven, and definitely only God can do that!
I know I do the sinning and He does the forgiving!
"And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed."
When Jesus said that He was saying that He was always with God? Jesus was Son of God and son of man.
I was born in 1956, and know nothing before that, and very little of my early years? I'm only human, but still I'm a child of God! If I go to be with Him in His future kingdom, I will have nothing to do with that except to take Him at His word that Jesus is my only hope! There's more to life then stuffing are pie holes?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 12, 2009 - 03:11pm PT
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"god" is a construct, a creation of human minds.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 12, 2009 - 03:26pm PT
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I like the term God, but ok a name is just a name, call it what you will, but whatever created EVERYTHING, is AMAZING!
Or just happened... and we walk on two feet because we wanted to have sex, and so to get it, the men had to go to work and the women stayed home, sorry lady's make me a sandwich, see Ardi!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 12, 2009 - 03:39pm PT
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So says jaybro "god" is a construct, a creation of human minds.
Suppose I go into a dark room and say to the person inside, “The sun has risen. Come out!” The person in darkness may say, “Where is the proof that there is light? First prove it to me; then I will come out.” I may plead with him, “Please, please, just come out and see.” But if he does not come out to see, he remains ignorant, waiting for proof.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 12, 2009 - 03:48pm PT
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But if he does not come out to see, he remains ignorant, waiting for proof.
Quite so.
However, as an analogy applicable to this discussion it makes more sense to end it this way: If he does come out, and finds that it is dark, he will say "You say the sun is shining whether the sun is shining or not." To which you reply "But I believe the sun is shining, therefore the sun is shining."
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 12, 2009 - 03:53pm PT
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When the sun rises, it's not hard to prove it. Just take a photo, measure the light readings, whatever. It's really not hard.
However, just saying "I believe it has risen" is not enough to prove to a skeptical mind that it has risen.
What if I say "I believe that your religion is bunk". Would just me saying that be enough to prove it to you? I sure hope not! But that's exactly what you're saying, only in reverse.
GO
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 12, 2009 - 03:56pm PT
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So, you can show us god? Werner? Do tell.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 12, 2009 - 04:12pm PT
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Suppose if you go to a professor and if you say, "Oh, if you are a professor, can you make me immediately M.A.?" and if he says, "Yes, why not?" then are you not a fool?
He is also fool.
And you can see God immediately without being trained, without undergoing training?
No. It is not possible.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 12, 2009 - 05:06pm PT
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Dr F wouldn't recognize God if he stood right front of him.
You're just pissing into the wind .....
and your intelligence has been taken away.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 12, 2009 - 05:11pm PT
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Dr. F, friend, you have forgotten so quickly that I have said quite a few times that I do talk to God.....it's easy, and he really listens. lynnie
Edit: WBraun, Dr. F would recognize God if he stood in front of Dr. F....anyone would really. He's hard to miss. :D
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 12, 2009 - 05:16pm PT
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donini, are you saying that people in other countries all pretty much are conditioned to think the same, thus no need for debate ? jess wonderin' :}
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 12, 2009 - 05:21pm PT
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Lynne, I think what he's saying is that the debate only occurs in your country because it (the US) is halfway between "cutting edge" and "medieval." In a medieval country, the debate wouldn't take place because almost everybody is conditioned (i.e. religious), so no need to debate anything. In a cutting edge country, most people aren't religious, so again, no need for debate.
Correct me if I'm wrong Jim.
Edit: and regarding your other recent post, you're quite right that Dr. F appears to have forgotten that you talk to god. Those of us on the questioning side are quite willing to accept that you talk to god/Jesus, what we have trouble with is trying to picture anyone on the other end of that conversation.
That's one of the reasons why, for the most part, this thread has been a good one. Those who, like me, are confused by what appears to be an unfounded belief in supernatural beings can ask politely for some kind of explanation or proof, while those who believe can do their best (politely) to bring the unbelievers into the light.
Dr. F, however, sometimes forgets the "polite" part.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 12, 2009 - 05:26pm PT
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"Not one human can say they talk to God, yet they say the bible is the word of God"
Let's talk a little bit about what it means that "all Scripture or every Scripture is inspired by God." Just what is inherent in that thought? Let me see if I can't take you to a couple of Scriptures to maybe enrich that and then launch into some other things that are on my heart to share with you.
Turn in your Bible to Hebrews chapter 1 and let's look at the first and the first part of the second verse. Hebrews chapter 1, it begins like this, "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers by the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son." Now that's the statement I want you to focus on. I don't intend to exhaust all of the ramifications of that statement, but in its simplicity it is abundantly clear and deeply profound. It's giving us the essence of revelation. Mark that word, revelation in its simple sense means to reveal...to reveal, to make something known that prior was not known, to make something understood that was not understood, to disclose truth never before known. God has revealed Himself. And here you have a statement with regard to revelation. God spoke long ago and God has spoken in these last days.
The writer of Hebrews is in effect saying God spoke on two occasions. He spoke once long ago, He speaks in these last days by His Son. Now I believe that we are fair in assessing the fact that he has in mind here Old Testament revelation and New Testament revelation. God spoke long ago to the Jewish fathers. Those were the Old Testament prophets, those who received God's Word long ago under the old covenant. He spoke to those fathers by means of the prophets in many portions, polumeros, many books, many sections. And you know that, there is the Pentateuch and there are the prophetic books and the historical books and there are the books of poetry. And in many many portions and in many books, God spoke. He spoke to the Jewish fathers. He spoke by means of the prophets.
He also spoke, it says, in many ways, polutropos. That means through vision and prophecy and parable and type and symbol and ceremony and theophany and sometimes audible voice. And He even wrote with His finger on stone. There were many ways in which God spoke many things, collected in many texts, put into many books and He spoke to those of old by means of the prophets. That is a statement with reference to the fact that the Old Testament is God speaking.
Now let me make it as clear as I can to you. The Old Testament is not a collection of the wisdom of ancient men. The Old Testament is not a collection of the best of religious thinking. The Old Testament is not a collection of the good musings of godly people. The Old Testament is the word of God. It's not the thinking of any men, good men, godly men or ancient men in and of themselves. It is the word of God. And the writer of Hebrews says God spoke...God spoke. The Old Testament was God speaking to the fathers by means of the prophets. In these last days since the coming of Christ, He has spoken again. And He has spoken in the Son. The gospels record God speaking through His Son‑‑Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The book of Acts, God speaking through the extension of the proclamation of the message of His son. The epistles, God speaking through the deep and profound understanding of the meaning of the life and ministry of the Son. And even Revelation, the consummation when the Son comes back in glory, the consummation of God's communication to this world.
So, the Old Testament is God speaking and revealing Himself. The New Testament is God speaking and revealing His Son. The Old Testament is God's self revelation and that is the theme of the Old Testament. From Genesis to the very end of the Old Testament, to Malachi, and all in between, the main character is God. It is the revelation of God, who He is, what are His attributes, what are His attitudes, how does He react to every possible given human situation, what is He like, what does He do, that's the Old Testament. It is the revelation of God. It is not the story of man. It is not the story of Israel. Those stories are there but it is the revelation of God and we see God revealed through man, through history, through Israel, through all that happens. God's attributes are sometimes listed very clearly as in the Psalms. On the other hand, sometimes we see His attributes very clearly and He's not even mentioned, such as in the book of Esther where no mention of God is made and yet He is the dominant force and dominant character throughout the entire book.
The Old Testament is the revelation of God to show man what God is like, who God is, what God tolerates and does not tolerate, how God desires holiness and punishes sin. The New Testament is God revealed by His Son in the life of His Son, in the message of His Son, in the understanding of the work of His Son and in the culmination and the coming of His Son to establish His eternal Kingdom. But in either case, Old Testament, New Testament, God spoke. And what we have is indeed the word of God. This is not the word of man.
The New Testament writers wrote down the Word of God. Jesus promised, "I will bring all things to your remembrance. I will teach you all things. I will lead you into all truth. I will show you things to come." And in so promising gave those Apostles and along with them the other writers of the New Testament the promise of divine inspiration, that they like the Old Testament prophets would write the Word of God.
And so, what we have in our hands, beloved, is not the word of man, it's not the word of religious men, it's not the word of wise and godly men, it is the word of God...the word of God. So Hebrews 1:1 and 2 talks about revelation, the revealing of God.
Here's the whole thing;
http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/55-17
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 12, 2009 - 05:32pm PT
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Gobee, we started walking upright most likely "because" it reduced the surface area of our pathetic hides' exposure to harsh equatorial sunlight, and it enabled us to run, and have our hands free to carry things. Those were all adaptations that led to greater survival rates in the habitats into which we moved, out of the forests and onto the savannah.
That's one fairly widely accepted theory, anyway. Kinda makes sense, eh?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 12, 2009 - 05:45pm PT
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Craig, yeah, God......:D
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 12, 2009 - 05:58pm PT
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Ghost, do I know you ? Have I ever met you? I appreciate your imput on this Thread very much. (These avatar names along with a persons real name is sometimes a bit much for me to remember.)
Anyway, I think you may be correct about Mr. donini's comments. But I wonder how healthy it is to lean to much in either direction. Would not diversity of ideas and thought be a good growth medium for future mental, physical and scientific exploration? Thus a cross section of thought would indeed be not only healthy but beneficial.
Dr. F is is not impolite, just Dr. F
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 12, 2009 - 06:00pm PT
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Dr. F, God did not evolve. All else may have, but not He. :D
Dr. F, I think there are documents like the Red Sea Scrolls that predate jesus. The whole bible was not written after jesus died.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 12, 2009 - 06:05pm PT
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It is easy to see God.
Step 1. go to the top of El Cap
Step 2. tie into one end of your rope
Step 3. tie the other end to a solid anchor
Step 4. jump
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 12, 2009 - 06:06pm PT
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"It just proves there is no God, since he would have had to evolve as well, and would have started as a big bang, and evolved completely ahead of us 4 billion in the future, and then apply some of what he learned during his evolution to us now,"
God always was, is, and will be! I can't get my head around that? But something had to be there before the big bang to make it go bang, GOD!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 12, 2009 - 06:15pm PT
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Ghost, do I know you ? Have I ever met you?
No. Although I must say you seem to be on fairly intimate terms with the other two members of my trinity.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 12, 2009 - 06:19pm PT
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I like you too Dr. F,,,,,,Quite a few people here on ST know me as well as some climbers from bitd. I doubt they all think I'm crazy.
Do you really think this world soley consists of what you see and only what you see? Think about it. Then ask Ed Hartouni about all the incredible things that exist that are not seen with the naked eye.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 12, 2009 - 06:30pm PT
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Seen with the naked eye, however, are the atrocities, the racism, and the narrow minded thinking of so many of god's followers- I wish my keyboard had a smaller case "g."
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 12, 2009 - 06:34pm PT
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My Family Practice Specialist has known for a long time I talk to God. He and Dan did their pre Dr. stuff at the same college. Really, tho, most people know I talk to God. It's not something I hide. I have a close friend that is dying now. She used to make fun of me re: this. Now she asks me to talk to God with her.
Ghost gave me a good laugh when he just wrote, "we are quite willing to accept that you talk to god/jesus. What we have trouble with is picturing anyone on the other end of the conversation." lol
I met a person several months ago that was going through much personal hell. I began to talk to jesus about them. I did not know what to pray for exactly because I had just met this person. So I asked jesus, what should I pray for..... I made a list of 5 things that came to my mind after quiet meditation. A week or so later when I spoke to this person I asked if anything on the list was valid. They replied, "down to the core.". Hey, talk to jesus and listen. You'd be surprised. But you need to talk honestly and take quiet time to listen. No rushing. Peace All, lynnie
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 12, 2009 - 06:36pm PT
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donini, I don't think you read my further up posts on atrocities, hate, racism, bigotry etc. These are not only perpetrated by phonies who name themselves after jesus but others. Maybe the letter p as in people needs a lower case also. :D
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 12, 2009 - 06:44pm PT
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Sorry Lynne, I think you're a great person but I firmly believe that narrow minded, dangerous thinking is much more prevalent, but not limited to, believers.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 12, 2009 - 07:07pm PT
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Well, donini, I semi agree. But the definition of believers must include other religions also. False christians aren't the only guilty parties in this charade. People....period....have a problem with others. Wounding words, petty or not so petty jealousies, envy.....Individuals need to take care of the business of loving one another on a day by day basis. Cut the crap. Some climbing friend or relative "hurt" yo years ago. Call them and make peace.
Edit: and by the way, donini, ask around, I am not a great person. I am just lynne.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 12, 2009 - 07:08pm PT
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donini, I don't think you read my further up posts on atrocities, hate, racism, bigotry etc. These are not only perpetrated by phonies who name themselves after jesus but others.
Lynne, I don't think you read my post upthread to Jennie about Christians who deny that other Christians are Christians.
GO
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 12, 2009 - 07:16pm PT
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Dr F and his diciples spend all day here trying to defeat something they know nothing about.
They've lost their intelligence.
Hahahaha
OOOH man the dragon will now blast .....
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 12, 2009 - 07:19pm PT
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A BIG Thanks You, to everyone who posted up and for stating your views and taking a stand one way or the other and keeping it mostly civil! Time will tell...
Cheers!
P. S. I'm not done, but wanted to say it!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 12, 2009 - 07:22pm PT
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GO, sorry ! Could you post the date and time....I'll look it up and address. I'm so far from perfect. I'm lucky I am all together today and my computer functions. If I ever look like I am "together" it's a false front. Peace, lynne
Edit: Ghost, Your post Oct 12, 3:15 pm......you have a Grate sense of humor !!!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 12, 2009 - 07:28pm PT
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Locker, I like your avatar pic. Keep forgetting to tell yo. :D
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 12, 2009 - 07:28pm PT
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When your conscious is telling you to do or not to do something, what is that? And when you don't do it what's that?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 12, 2009 - 07:30pm PT
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Good Question, Gobee. lynne
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 12, 2009 - 07:47pm PT
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Airing tonight on the Discovery Channel at 9 pm (Eastern and Pacific), Discovering Ardi — a documentary on the investigation leading up to the historic announcement of the Ardipithecus ramidus fossils.
(In case anyone still cares about the origin of this thread.)
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 12, 2009 - 07:55pm PT
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Ardi has been debunked for millions of years.
The advanced souls in the past yugas all cremated the bodies.
Their bones will never be found .....
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 12, 2009 - 07:56pm PT
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Dr. F, Stop apologizing. Please. You are nice. How many times do I have to reiterate that. I (mostly) enjoy this entire thread. Dan counted you a friend and so do I along with Spencer.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 12, 2009 - 08:13pm PT
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Dr F your Muslim scenario is plain stupid logic because it's based on sectarian religion, whether Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist or any other sect.
The cremation thing will be your homework, you're the scientist .....
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 12, 2009 - 08:14pm PT
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"I must kill 1000 christians, so I can get my 72 virgins"
What a deal. Are these 72 doe-eyed virgins available for Mr. Ali’s carnal pleasures? If so, what does he do after Week 1 of eternity? {YMMV} Teach them to play Mah Jong? Cribbage? How many grapes and dates must he eat over the next multi-gazillion years?
Or worse. The 72 doe-eyed virgins are eternal virgins and NOT available for his carnal pleasure. Can anyone image anything worse than to be teamed up forever with six dozen virgin vixens who constantly want to feed you grapes and dates and want to play Mah Jong and cribbage?
Christians +1
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 12, 2009 - 08:30pm PT
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no, the dating is very exact at 4.4 million years ago, give or take
50,000 years, according to the independent samples sent to two
different research testing laboratories
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 12, 2009 - 08:34pm PT
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I know I'm not Lynne but...
First, God would not tell us to kill anyone to go to heaven, but have a faith in Jesus. It's no longer an "eye for an eye", Jesus said to forgive; if you want to be forgiven, you also have to forgive.
Second, True, but some Muslim's do change! Anyone of us could be the same as anyone else in the whole world, but God and his Son are over all. He is not a Nation or a religion, but God. We need to follow Him not the other way around!
Edit; Nice cactus flowers!
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jstan
climber
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Oct 12, 2009 - 09:08pm PT
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Gobee:
As regards your question about what came before.
http://www.big-bang-theory.com/
Excerpted
……..Big Bang Theory - Common Misconceptions?There are many misconceptions surrounding the Big Bang theory. For example, we tend to imagine a giant explosion. Experts however say that there was no explosion; there was (and continues to be) an expansion. Rather than imagining a balloon popping and releasing its contents, imagine a balloon expanding: an infinitesimally small balloon expanding to the size of our current universe. ??Another misconception is that we tend to image the singularity as a little fireball appearing somewhere in space. According to the many experts however, space didn't exist prior to the Big Bang. Back in the late '60s and early '70s, when men first walked upon the moon, "three British astrophysicists, Steven Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose turned their attention to the Theory of Relativity and its implications regarding our notions of time. In 1968 and 1970, they published papers in which they extended Einstein's Theory of General Relativity to include measurements of time and space.1, 2 According to their calculations, time and space had a finite beginning that corresponded to the origin of matter and energy."3 The singularity didn't appear in space; rather, space began inside of the singularity. Prior to the singularity, nothing existed, not space, time, matter, or energy - nothing. So where and in what did the singularity appear if not in space? We don't know. We don't know where it came from, why it's here, or even where it is. All we really know is that we are inside of it and at one time it didn't exist and neither did we………..
End Excerpt
The very idea of time when space was created is subject to relativistic calculation because of the huge mass involved and it probably little resembles our idea of a linear time variable. It is not mentioned here but in order to explain a number of astronomical observations it has been useful to posit that the initial expansion proceeded, in some sense, at supraluminal velocities. Not being a specialist in this I won’t venture to guess at the sense in which this occurred or how space or time looked. It did not look at all like what we see around us.
All of these theories are at the edge of that for which we have useful models. A useful model is one that allows us to calculate results that correspond closely to what we see. Now here at the edge separating the things for which we have models/hypotheses and the things for which we don’t have models
we observe the most incredible phenomenon of all.
We get a gross difference in the behaviors of different people at this “edge.”
Technical people are not only able, they are sometimes pleased, to say, “on the other side, we do not yet know.” They are sometimes pleased because they have identified new and interesting questions needing to be answered.
Some other people seem to have a disparate fear of “not knowing.” They simply imagine some magical mechanism to explain. The value of that magical mechanism rests only in that it fills a hole the person cannot tolerate for whatever reason.
This last is my model/hypothesis for this very curious human phenomenon.
The phenomenon is very old. Before we knew what the sun was the sun used to be worshipped as a god. The sun actually proved to be a good god that served us very well. And it did it every morning without fail. We could depend upon it.
PS: I hope better informed persons can correct me where I do not properly understand.
I shall be very pleased to have my understanding improved.
Edit:
From Gobee:
"jstan
Very cool! God is beyond time and space, He created it!"
1. We have no data suggesting a god exists.
2. We have no data saying it might be a he.
3. Space was created about 13.75 BILLION years ago.
4. Our sun came to its present state approximately 4 billion years ago
5. We think our solar system was created by supernovae of the supermassive stars formed early in cosmic history. Our models for stars indicates very massive stars can become supernovae in as little as 100,000 years, provided they are massive enough. So the materials from which we are made may possibly have been created by more than one generation of supernovae.
Now you may be persuaded to advance a model suggesting nearly 14 billion years ago an all powerful man created the universe.
But there is no data whatsoever to support this model.
A rational response is to say, "We don't know everything right now, and that is perfectly fine."
And we can then get on with the business of living our lives, doing as little damage as we can to others, and working to create conditions allowing life to continue.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 12, 2009 - 09:12pm PT
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Gobee, hang in there.
Funny @ "I'm not lynne, but...." hahahaha
I was just jivin' ya about answering the question in an earlier post.
Go For It Always. Peace, lynnie
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 12, 2009 - 09:14pm PT
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Dr. F, I'll be back to answer yo questions. Just tired.....long few days. Smiles, lynne
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 12, 2009 - 09:25pm PT
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jstan
Very cool! God is beyond time and space, He created it! But what I was saying is you can keep going back, something doesn't come from nothing, so before all creation God was still God!
P.S. We all started out with a Bang?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 12, 2009 - 09:26pm PT
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jstan, but remember the Aztecs, who were able to convince entire populations that the sun might not come back every morning unless the gods were appeased with a human heart or five, every day, just because the priests said so.
That's the sort of thing about religion that really riles the ethical atheist's nonexistent soul. An example of how silly fairy stories can inflict unforgivable pain and suffering on the gullible masses. And Christianity, for all its watered-down feelgood modernized pieties, began with a human sacrifice too.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 12, 2009 - 09:47pm PT
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"And Christianity, for all its watered-down feel good modernized pieties, began with a human sacrifice too."
True, You'll have to ask God why He had to do it that way? But He accepted it! God is ethical and just, and true to Himself, He never changes, but He shows mercy!
If a Muslim, Christian, or Aztec Killed me, I wouldn't blame God, for what they did!
Edit; I like them bones(fossils), I just know there's more to it...
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 12, 2009 - 09:51pm PT
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You can't blame someone who doesn't exist, either.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 12, 2009 - 09:56pm PT
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"Why does God care about anything we do?
And obviously God doesn't care about anything we do, since it is being done"
Free will...
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 12, 2009 - 09:59pm PT
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Locker,
"Dam Apes" Charlton Heston
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 12, 2009 - 10:10pm PT
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Don't worry it's part of O'B care also!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 12, 2009 - 10:15pm PT
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Just kidding!
Edit; We didn't know all the things we know now. Science is the discovery of what God gave us and make use of it, not to kill Him!
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jstan
climber
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Oct 12, 2009 - 10:30pm PT
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"Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
Oct 12, 2009 - 06:56pm PT
"Why does God care about anything we do?
And obviously God doesn't care about anything we do, since it is being done"
Free will..."
I threatened to come back on that earlier post and Gobee has set me up. That post again, the interpreted version.
This requires some interpretation (added).
"God didn't have to send his Son but then(in that case) we could (would) not be with Him(God) because are(our) sin would be unforgiven (for God is Holy)(sic). So God sent His Son Jesus who new (knew) no sin, because He (God) LOVES US and wants us to be with Him (God)!"
We begin:
Why did God have to send Jesus to earth? God is all-powerful. He could just as well forgive us after he got us to Heaven. Right? All-powerful people can do as they please. We have recent data on that point.
He may have sent Jesus down because he is not all-powerful in Heaven. He might not be able to forgive us there at all. So we have to be forgiven while still on earth.
Now let’s ask whether god is all-powerful on earth. First of all I will cite all the horrible things that happen to us down here, mind you along with all the good things. If god were so focussed on our happiness and he were all powerful down here, it would be pretty apparent to us. No toothaches and such.
There’s another bit of data. Suppose god were all powerful on earth and either here or in Heaven, I was facing god as it decides whether to forgive me. You know what I would say? I’m not all that bright but I would say, “Kind Sir. Since you are all-powerful on earth and in Heaven it is you who are responsible for any evil things I have done. An example. In an auto accident the guilty party is judged to be “the last person who might have prevented the accident.” So if you are the last person who could have prevented evil doings by me, I DON”T NEED ANY FORGIVENESS.”
So it is, everything we see indicates god has little power either on earth or in Heaven( if Heaven exists at all.) The data supports this model very clearly.
So why would he send Jesus to earth? I’ll advance a hypothesis. The bible urges us quite frequently to do some things and not others. God may have wanted to have a person we could look at while we were hearing those things. Would you not think this is the most persuasive way to give us counsel?
This hypothesis is by no means a stretch. If we are right in the discussion above and god is not all-powerful he would have to do something like this. He apparently sent his son. We also have to consider the possibility god had been viewing human behavior for a time. In that case he would have had to know there was a chance we would do what we did to his son.
If we assume god ( if it exists) really cares about us, and he does not have any power, then everything we see is explained.
It is very simply up to us to lead the best life we can, with or without god's help.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 12, 2009 - 10:32pm PT
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We had to leave Eden by not obeying God. All down hill from there!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 12, 2009 - 10:36pm PT
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Geeez Dr. F, didn't anyone ever tell you that the little irritations in life; germs, gum disease, republicans etc. are just god's vetting process to see what kind of a house you get in heaven.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Idaho, also. Sorta, kinda mostly, Yeah.
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Oct 12, 2009 - 10:37pm PT
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No, Man. Eden is right down the Road.
Beautiful Eden, Idaho.
It IS Eden for Rockchucks, anyway.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Idaho, also. Sorta, kinda mostly, Yeah.
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Oct 12, 2009 - 10:52pm PT
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LOOK! it's Ardi!!!!!!
Ardi of Eden has quite the Ring.......
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 12, 2009 - 11:00pm PT
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"How does Ardi fit in with Eden?"
One of God's creatures!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 12, 2009 - 11:10pm PT
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No, were humans!
Edit; How come animals don't talk by now?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 12, 2009 - 11:39pm PT
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Clearly, if animals could talk there could be no god, that's just logic!
Dr F, that's just how germs speak to us....
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 12, 2009 - 11:41pm PT
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So only primates to men evolved? With all the time Dogs spend with us they should speak whatever language we speak?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 12, 2009 - 11:47pm PT
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Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 12, 2009 - 11:52pm PT
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"and dogs do have a verbal language, and it could evolve to be understood by humans, if it was beneficial to their species survival OVER a million years of gradual step by step change."
I guess four million years wasn't long enough!
Edit; Or maybe they do talk they just don't want us to know they can!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 13, 2009 - 12:02am PT
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It should be "How come dogs can't read books".
Pretty asinine responses so far.
There's no life in this thread .....
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MH2
climber
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Oct 13, 2009 - 12:12am PT
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I checked as well as I could and didn't find anyone else who had answered Jaybro:
Is there any reason to treat creationism as anything more than superstious nonsense?
No.
Well, maybe.
After all it isn't the first question you consider when you see a goddess, or perhaps god.
To inveigle a woman, creationism would still be nonsense, but I wouldn't treat it that way.
and Ghost:
you seem to be on fairly intimate terms with the other two members of my trinity.
haha Rock and Bourbon?
edit
WBraun:
There's no life in this thread
Maybe not but all kidding aside I am grateful for what you have said here.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 13, 2009 - 12:35am PT
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Gobee-
There are both chimpanzees and gorillas who have been taught hundreds of words through sign language. There are chimps who can make simple sentences by arranging felt pieces on a board and chimps have been taught to use simple symbol-based keyboards connected to computers. Chimps have been documented as joking, lying, inventing vocabulary and teaching their offspring to sign. One even tried to teach a pet kitten to sign. The gorillas have matched what the chimps have done and outscore human children of up to 7 years old on tests of pairing opposites. One gorilla has made up simple rhymes. Since these gorillas are able to understand spoken English and hear rhymes spoken in English and then reply in sign language with words that rhyme when spoken, they are in fact bilingual in two different languages. I wonder how many of our Supertopians can claim that?
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Oct 13, 2009 - 12:38am PT
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GOclimb wrote:
“You're just defining bad people who love Jesus out of existence! You're claiming that if they are "real" Christians, that they couldn't possibly be bad people. That may help keep your numbers looking good, but can't you see how ridiculous it sounds?”
“See, here's the thing - some other religions don't work like this, but most Christian sects define a Christian as someone who has accepted Jesus as his/her personal savior. Period. You have NO right to claim that someone isn't a Christian when she says she is. NONE. It's antithetical to the very roots of your religion to do so.”
GOclimb—
My posts did not suggest defining anyone out of existence and I don’t believe this is an issue about “rights.” I don’t own the term “Christian”. I don’t believe I suggested such. Anyone can CALL themselves Christian or religious.
Are you ignoring the context of my first post? An individual made prior post claiming atheists committed less crime than the religious and lived more ethical lives. These studies that assert that claim, primarily on the basis of prison populations, have little validity.
Don’t you believe the definitions of “Christian” and “religious” are rather hazy, as are “atheist” and “agnostic”? Hazy subjects and indistinct characterizations don’t engender conclusive corollaries.
Do you want to define anyone who “loves Jesus” a Christian? Okay. Anyone who “accepts Christ as Lord and Savior”….another interpretation. Anyone who has a baptismal certificate? ….another definition. As you advised, there are many sects and many delineations of what signifies “believer” or “Christian.”
But in making a credible study we need confirmed and rigorously defined subjects. Conjoining the desperate with the committed and assured, whether they are believers or atheists, will not yield valid determinations about behavior.
You wouldn’t want yourself or other ethical atheists thrown in with Jeffrey Dahmer and 20th century atheist dictators, who committed mass murders, (in making a study of atheist behavior)? It wouldn’t be relevant; your logic, philosophy and agendas are different.
And any study that combines the devout and committed, who actually attempt to incorporate religious ethics in their lives, with casual or desperate individuals who use religion as a crutch or strictly for emotional comfort, will not accord germane conclusions. Ted Bundy was baptized Catholic in youth. Is there any confirmation he was ever devoted to Christian principles? After being apprehended, tried in court and sentenced to death, he claimed to be a “born again Christian.” Would you, as an atheist, gleefully categorize him in with committed Christians to bias a “study”? Some have.
Rights? Yes, GOclimb, any pseudo social scientist has “rights” to classify these desperate professors of faith as “Christian” to make an analysis, whether it be valid or not.
They also have right to throw nuts in their omelet.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 13, 2009 - 12:40am PT
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Dr. F.
You state that Lynn hears voices in her head from Jesus and you hear voices in your head that are just yours. As an outside observer, how am I to decide which voices are correct? You might claim that yours are backed with science and you help the world that way, Lynne claims hers are backed by Jesus and she helps the world by applying his principles. I say you both have valuable contributions to make to the world, but you specialize in different areas. One of you is not superior to the other, rather you are complimentary to each other. So why so adversarial?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 13, 2009 - 12:46am PT
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So just this morning I overheard a conversation between a wire hair pointer and a great wawa...
"So, if humans are so smart, how come they never evolved as far as butt sniffing?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 13, 2009 - 01:02am PT
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The Bible repeatedly says that man's greatest fault is his lack of humility (Tower of Babel and all that). The history of science meanwhile tells us that progress is never held back by what we don't know, but by inadequate models of what we are sure that we do know. Another way of putting it is that in science if you ask and ask the same question and can not find an answer then you are asking the wrong question and need to rephrase it to open your mind to a new paradigm. It seems to me that jstan opened the way for a new paradigm and everyone just ignored it in favor of shouting the same old questions and accusations at each other??
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 13, 2009 - 01:39am PT
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Hi Jan. The sun comes up in Okinawa as it sets here.
It seems to me that jstan opened the way for a new paradigm and everyone just ignored it in favor of shouting the same old questions and accusations at each other??
Hmmm. For many of us, the problem is that there are no real answers given to those same old questions, even when they're asked quietly and politely.
Q: "If something in the world is incompatable with your religious beliefs, why do you coninue to believe?"
A: "Because the bible says so, and the bible is the word of god!"
Q: "Why do you believe the bible is the word of god?"
A: "Because the bible says so!"
You can vary this slightly depending on what variety of religion is being preached, but it sums up the problem in a nutshell. Sometimes the shouting obscures it, but it's still a problem. As a very human being, I would like to believe that my death will not be final, that I will enjoy an eternal life with god. I have not closed my mind. I am willing to listen, and to accept any reasonable evidence that there is a god, or gods, and that by accepting it/them I will transcend death.
But no one has ever offered any reasonable evidence. Take a close look at any of it, and it falls into one of two categories:
a) "The bible says so!" or
b) "Science can't explain it, therefore god must be the answer."
Show me a religious belief system that isn't contradicted by what I bump into on the street every day (or by what some poor child being tortured by psychopathic killers endures) and I'll be more than happy to accept it, but Gobee's "The bible says so" and Lynne's "Jesus is my pal" don't really qualify. It might keep them functioning, but it's not really rational, is it?
Or have I somehow missed your point?
David
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 13, 2009 - 01:56am PT
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Ghost
No it's not rational at all.
And those answers, I agree will do nothing for anyone except make one more suspicious.
That's why I stress one must make their own sincere search.
Just remember some will never make that journey in this life or the next.
Otherwise a Judge would never ever hand out 2 consecutive life sentences in prison. Not everything meets the eye in a systematic way that can be understood by just plain reason and simple logic.
Many will fail in their search many will give up. They will be reborn in their next life according to the consciousness one has developed in this life. This is pretty crude and basic example but is far and far more involved than can ever be expressed here.
Anyways ...
Don't be thinking about your dog in your last breath ......
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 13, 2009 - 01:56am PT
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"We begin:"
God is Holy, we could not stand in His...without the grace of Christ
And Moses said, “I will turn aside to see this great sight, why the bush is not burned.” When the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the bush, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.” Then he said, “Do not come near; take your sandals off your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.” And he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.
The Shining Face of Moses
When Moses came down from Mount Sinai, with the two tablets of the testimony in his hand as he came down from the mountain, Moses did not know that the skin of his face shone because he had been talking with God. Aaron and all the people of Israel saw Moses, and behold, the skin of his face shone, and they were afraid to come near him. But Moses called to them, and Aaron and all the leaders of the congregation returned to him, and Moses talked with them. Afterward all the people of Israel came near, and he commanded them all that the Lord had spoken with him in Mount Sinai. And when Moses had finished speaking with them, he put a veil over his face.
Whenever Moses went in before the Lord to speak with him, he would remove the veil, until he came out. And when he came out and told the people of Israel what he was commanded, the people of Israel would see the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face was shining. And Moses would put the veil over his face again, until he went in to speak with him.
And the Lord said to Moses, “This very thing that you have spoken I will do, for you have found favor in my sight, and I know you by name.” Moses said, “Please show me your glory.” And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The Lord.’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.” And the Lord said, “Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by. Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen.”
A Kingdom That Cannot Be Shaken
For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.” Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.” But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven. At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.” This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made—in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, for our God is a consuming fire.
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Oct 13, 2009 - 02:04am PT
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I was just going to type about the idea of birth, death, and cycles that existed even before people recognized them. Someone spoke of the importance of recognizing the good in the systems we create. I had to laugh, when I saw that Gobee dropped another scripture bomb.
Werner, I liked your advice about a last breath... Walking it like you talk it.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 13, 2009 - 05:38am PT
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Reading through Werner's last post, I'd like to note that the idea of reincarnation is attractive to me personally, because it gives us slow learners more than one chance and it places the blame for things where it belongs - on us. God, having set the laws of karma in motion, is left out of the mess made by humans on earth. Humans must accept responsibility for their situation both individually and collectively, and proceed from there. They can not blame God for their lack of success or happiness. Each person is responsible for their own choices, the sum of which is their karma.
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Oct 13, 2009 - 08:59am PT
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I like the idea of personal responsibility, and our situation being the result of our actions. Still, I remember something being typed about collective karma too. Groups share karma? Not that I believe in karma per say... Gotta go to work.
Good day all. Stay dry and remember, friends don't let friends climb slabs.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 13, 2009 - 09:33am PT
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What's wrong with taking full personal accountability during our lives without using imaginary scenarios from confusing old books to dress it all up?
We get one shot at life, we can do good or bad things, and our reputations and legacies reflect that for as long as our actions have effects and someone remembers what we did.
All the rest is optional.
Unless that's what you're into.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBUFV2c_vcU
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 13, 2009 - 10:48am PT
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I'd like to note that the idea of reincarnation is attractive to me personally
Me too! I'm like you, Jan - a slow learner. This life seems way too short. I'm over halfway through, and feel like I'm just starting to get the hang of a few things. And there's so much to learn! I'd love to believe I have more time than just this life. It's horrible to think that in the whole of eternity, past and future, all I get is these few years. So would I like more time? Is it attractive to think I could have that? Hell yeah!
Sadly, there are lots of things I'd like to believe which just ain't so.
IMO, religions tell us it's okay to hold onto certain fantasies. And, to be honest, for many people, that's probably for the best. Reality is harsh. It's also beautiful beyond measure, but in a way that's so big, it's almost crushing to the spirit. I think religion gives people a little space in which to operate that's outside the confines of harsh reality.
I need that space in my life too, but I choose good fiction, I choose community, I choose climbing, and above all those, I choose love. All these are constructs of my mind, and I cling to them with the same fanatical devotion with which Gobee clings to his savior.
Works for me.
GO
"And we are put on Earth a little space, that we may learn to bear the beams of love." W. Blake
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jstan
climber
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Oct 13, 2009 - 10:58am PT
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If I might I would like to address Gobee's habit of dropping scripture bombs when faced with a problem to which he does not already have the answer. This is a very fundamental human trait that crosses all boundaries.
Suppose for a moment that I am an accomplished thermodynamicist. I really enjoyed those courses and I A'ced all the exams. Now I have a job and the problem in front of me is a problem in statistical mechanics.
Can you guess which branch of science I will try to employ? Over, and over, and over again?
The number and variety of quantum mechanical problems that have stubbornly resisted attack by classical people is beyond counting.
You even see people who enjoyed doing their thesis going out and getting a job, but who try to do their thesis over and over again on the job for the rest of their life.
And so it goes also with "spiritual" matters.
Humans are creatures of habit who really really like the expected.
We can worship the sun because it always does the expected.
And we have a lot of trouble in a random sometimes chaotic world. The unexpected is happening all of the time. Dammit!
When it is too much to take I go back to some really old book that I have had for a long time and I read the sentences I have read many times before.
They, at least, are on the page where I expected to find them.
We are creatures of habit living in a world that sometimes appears chaotic.
The answer?
Accept it. Work very hard to make the life you want and believe is right.
But never, never assume success is a given.
When failure comes, stand tall amidst the rubble
and know your ability to stand tall even in failure
is all the power you will ever need.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 13, 2009 - 11:20am PT
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Don't be thinking about your dog in your last breath ......
Oh, I dunno. There are probably worse things to come back as.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 13, 2009 - 11:22am PT
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Do you want to define anyone who “loves Jesus” a Christian? Okay. Anyone who “accepts Christ as Lord and Savior”….another interpretation. Anyone who has a baptismal certificate? ….another definition. As you advised, there are many sects and many delineations of what signifies “believer” or “Christian.”
The point is that from my reading of the New Testament and all of today's Christian faiths, the only "real" definition of a Christian is that the person claims to have accepted Jesus as their means to salvation. All the other "hazy" stuff you reference is simply designed by one sect of Christianity to exclude all the other sects. Like I said, that keeps all the people you define as "good" people in your group, and the ones you don't like out of it. But not only do I not accept that, I also think it's entirely hypocritical to your own most fundamental religious tenets.
You wouldn’t want yourself or other ethical atheists thrown in with Jeffrey Dahmer and 20th century atheist dictators, who committed mass murders, (in making a study of atheist behavior)? It wouldn’t be relevant; your logic, philosophy and agendas are different.
You don't read so well, do you? I said I have no problem sharing the mantle of atheist with people who do horrific things. My lack of a belief in god(s) doesn't define my agenda any more than it does Jeffrey Dahmer's. In fact, quite the opposite - it frees me to be the best person I can be, informed by but not shackled to philosophies designed for an earlier time.
That's the thing - I'm not tied to any religious sect. I think the reason religion is so fractured is that every time you see evil, in order to separate yourself from it and say "that's not what we believe - that's not who we are" you must break off into a new sect, to self-define out of existence that which you don't like. I don't have that problem.
So sure, if you want to do studies on all atheists, it makes perfect sense to me to include all of them, not just the ones I agree with! The latter seems totally ludicrous! It would be like a scientist saying "this data doesn't agree with my hypothesis, so I'm going to ignore it."
No, you should accept that there are true Christians who do terrible, terrible things. I'm sorry, but that's the truth.
Would you, as an atheist, gleefully categorize <Ted Bundy> in with committed Christians to bias a “study”? Some have.
If he claims to be Christian, of course! You would deny Jesus from him, deny his chance at salvation? What kind of a Christian does that make you?
GO
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 13, 2009 - 11:24am PT
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JStan - nice post, and it's weird how we were writing very similar posts at the same time (see the post directly above yours).
GO
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 13, 2009 - 11:38am PT
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"If I might I would like to address Gobee's habit of dropping scripture bombs when faced with a problem to which he does not already have the answer"
Well they do answers the question, and they are answers that I believe that God gave us to answer those questions! I can't answer most of these questions on my own authority and couldn't have an answers on my own! But there are 66 different books that were written over 1600 years, which some of the writers didn't know what the others had written and it fits together, it was not a conspiracy, but the word of God! Every time I read it I get something new out of it, it's the living truth.
Also we will get to spend all eternity with God in heaven, it doesn't end here!
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jstan
climber
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Oct 13, 2009 - 11:43am PT
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Yeah GO this thread seems to have legs. Interesting new viewpoints are appearing.
Earlier I had tried to point out data was being handled really badly in the good/bad christian business. The same thing showed up again.
Anytime you edit the data so it proves your already formed conclusion you throw away the single most important thing in your life.
The chance to learn and to become better.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 13, 2009 - 11:49am PT
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Well they do answers the question,
No, they don't. If the question was "Gobee, what do you think god said about this, or that?" then quoting the bible would indeed be a reasonable way to answer.
However, when the question is "On what do you base your belief that the bible is authoritative?" or, "Why do you believe the bible is the word of god?" or something similar, then quoting the bible not only doesn't answer the question, it is extremely rude. When you do that, you are effectively saying "I don't know, but I'm just going take up your time with a non-answer anyway."
So, could you please think twice before you just dump more verbiage into the thread? I think we'd all be better off. Your own thoughts that actually address questions asked are appreciated. Bible bombs are not.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 13, 2009 - 11:58am PT
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I can't prove how the sun got there , but there it is!
Same with the Bible, but you say I can't prove the Bible with the Bible, it's truths still ring true, prove me wrong!
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Oct 13, 2009 - 12:10pm PT
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"If he claims to be Christian, of course! You would deny Jesus from him, deny his chance at salvation? What kind of a Christian does that make you?"
Come on, GOclimb, you suggested Patrick was puposely misinterpreting my post....now you're doing the same thing !
I'm not questioning anyone's salvation or posturing my own christianity. I posted that you cannot make a valid study about Christian or atheist ethics or crime by counting heads in a prison. I've posted why those studies were spurious, I'm not going over it again.
My remarks were in the context of those invalid studies....now you're suggesting I want to deny peoples chances at salvation and keep them from Jesus.....and you tell me I don't read very well?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 13, 2009 - 12:53pm PT
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Is that a shot from your own medicine cabinet, Locker?
You gonna be looking for a renter?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 13, 2009 - 01:04pm PT
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I talk to my cat a lot. She seems generally supportive, and talking to her helps me marshall my thoughts.
Now, you may say "What kind of dork thinks talking to his cat is of any value?" But at least my cat is real. You can come over and see her. Touch her, even. So whether or not talking to my cat is a sign that I'm weak, at least it isn't a sign that I'm... well... you know...
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 13, 2009 - 01:21pm PT
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"I've never seen God write a book. I've never met anyone who claims to have seen God write a book, unless they were heavily medicated."
The Lord said to Moses, “Come up to me on the mountain and wait there, that I may give you the tablets of stone, with the law and the commandment, which I have written for their instruction.”
And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.
Well it's true...
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 13, 2009 - 01:24pm PT
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God said "Moses kill me a son"
Moses said, "God stick it up highway sixty woun!"
or similar.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 13, 2009 - 01:29pm PT
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Come on, GOclimb, you suggested Patrick was puposely misinterpreting my post....now you're doing the same thing !
If I'm misinterpreting your view, I'm certainly not doing it on purpose. I happen to think that your view contains a self-contradiction of which you're unaware. I can understand how you might disavow yourself of that contradiction, but I think it's quite real. But perhaps I'm mistaken.
Do you, or do you not, consider that if someone says they are a Christian, that they are? That it is a matter of the heart, which you and I are not in a place to judge - that it's between that individual and their God?
If so, then the numbers are the numbers. I never claimed you can get anything meaningful from those numbers. Quite the opposite. I know of no way to get any kind of causality between faith and good (or bad) deeds. But that's where you and I really seem to differ. Because you believe in a causal relationship between faith in Jesus and good behavior, you deny these criminals their faith. I think that's a despicable hypocrasy, and only serves to exclude data which happens to be against your preconceived notion.
I'm not questioning anyone's salvation or posturing my own christianity. I posted that you cannot make a valid study about Christian or atheist ethics or crime by counting heads in a prison. I've posted why those studies were spurious, I'm not going over it again.
And I think that counting heads is worth exactly what it's worth. It doesn't prove causality, but it does prove correlation.
My remarks were in the context of those invalid studies....now you're suggesting I want to deny peoples chances at salvation and keep them from Jesus.....and you tell me I don't read very well?
Yeah. I don't think that's what you're setting out to do, but that's the result. So, you explain to me in your own words what these "non Christians" are then? Pretenders? Fakers? Riiiighht.
Like I said - IMO Christians are Christians if they say they are.
GO
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 13, 2009 - 02:54pm PT
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Wes, imho those cannot be jesus followers.....and shouldn't a christian be a jesus follower ?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 13, 2009 - 02:58pm PT
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The so called "Christians" maintain huge mechanized industrial slaughterhouses.
Killing millions of animals yearly, particularly the cow, which is the mother of the earth, to satisfy the senses.
They said Jesus meant, murder, not killing.
The commandment said: Thou shalt not kill.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 13, 2009 - 03:08pm PT
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lol that. Best pitch I ever heard.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 13, 2009 - 03:33pm PT
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and I am Satan cuz I said so.
Sorry, trolling on the internet does not exactly qualify you to be Satan. You need to step it up a few notches.
God doesn't know the difference between words and actions.
I didn't say that. In fact, in many religions, your actions or your birth may define you as in or out. Not so with Christianity. It's one of the peculiarities of the religion, and perhaps part of what made it so successful. So far as I can tell, what makes you a Christian is "what you feel in your heart".
Fattrad - you ever hear a Rabbi say that if a goy (non-jew) believes in Jehovah in his heart, that makes him a Jew? It's preposterous! And if a Jew lives a selfish, petty life, but believes in Jehovah, that makes him a mensch (a good Jew)? No way! But hey, different strokes for different folks. So if them's the rules the Christians want to live by, I think they should be held to their own rules.
GO
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 13, 2009 - 03:36pm PT
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"I think they should be held to their own rules."
They are. Here.
In the next world you're on your own...
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jstan
climber
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Oct 13, 2009 - 03:37pm PT
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Lynne:
http://www.kkk.com/
America, Our Nation is Under Judgement from God!
"There is a race war against whites. But our people - my white brothers and sisters - will stay committed to a non-violent resolution. That resolution must consist of solidarity in white communities around the world. The hatred for our children and their future is growing and is being fueled every single day. Stay firm in your convictions. Keep loving your heritage and keep witnessing to others that there is a better way than a war torn, violent, wicked, SOCIALIST, new world order. That way is the Christian way - law and order - love of family - love of nation. These are the principles of western Christian civilization. There is a war to destroy these things. Pray that our people see the error of their ways and regain a sense of loyalty. Repent America! Be faithful my fellow believers. "
National Director of The Knights
Pastor Thomas Robb
End Quote
Note:
I am responsible for capitalizing the word "socialist" in the above. In the original it was cursef.
I thought it showing up here to be curious.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 13, 2009 - 03:43pm PT
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Uhhh, guess they haven't heard that jesus is strong on two things.....Love god and Love your neighbor....who is your neighbor? everyone. Christian's must be jesus followers according to the definition.....roughly, of Christ. jess sayin'.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 13, 2009 - 03:47pm PT
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Wes, the KKK was never a Christian organization, and despite their antisemitism, religion was never a core part of the organization.
They were basically a disorganized group of mobs with a political agenda of disenfranchising blacks and fighting the democratic party in the south.
GO
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 13, 2009 - 03:50pm PT
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Oops - just read JStan's post above. I guess the KKK is branching out these days. Well, that's not surprising - I guess if you want to hate those towelheads, religion is as good a method as any to tar them as "other".
GO
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 13, 2009 - 03:51pm PT
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Five years old, my mother and the Catholic priest told me that only children
who are baptized in the Christian faith can go to heaven.
I asked what happens to all the other kids in the world who aren't baptized. They told me they would have to sit in a moderately bad place
named Purgatory forever, cause no way would they be allowed in heaven.
I turned atheist that same day, refused to ever again go to church,
and damn near got thrown out of the house. It was 1955.
I have not changed my opinion since then.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 13, 2009 - 03:53pm PT
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Wrong Skip, atheism is the perfect "religion" for all ages.
I just figured it out earlier than most.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 13, 2009 - 03:57pm PT
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WRONG again, Skip, it must get tiring speaking first before you know the facts.
I was forced to grow up very strict Catholic, altar boy and all.
Don't know how old you are or if you were raised Catholic, but back
in the 1950's the church was very clear that if you were not baptized
Catholic, no way were you going to heaven.
How much do you know about Catholic dogma in the 1950's? I LIVED it.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 13, 2009 - 04:05pm PT
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I need to add a disclaimer here on my way to "running to the dugout." :D
I often times REALLY miss the mark, the "high standard" put forth by my friend jesus. It's why I try and stay so close to him. It is so darn easy for me to blow it. Peace, lynne
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 13, 2009 - 04:11pm PT
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Lynne wrote: Christian's must be jesus followers according to the definition.....roughly, of Christ.
Yeah, but seeing as he's not around here to ask (okay, notwithstanding the Jesus in your head) - I guess that leaves it open to interpretation how Jesus might define it, right?
So then, who gets to decide? The Pope? You? Me? Some head honcho guy in Salt Lake City? I dunno about you, but I don't like any of those answers. I say if a person says they believe they're following Christ, then that's their belief. I'm sorry, but every Christian thinks their version is the only "valid" one. I think that's totally bogus.
If you feel that having a minister being the head of the KKK reflects poorly on you and your faith, I understand and empathize with your dilemma. But casting him out in your own mind accomplishes nothing except to make you feel better about what it means to be a follower of Jesus.
GO
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jstan
climber
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Oct 13, 2009 - 04:22pm PT
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Lynne:
You say you do not always stay as close to Jesus as you would like. For those times when you are not as close as you would like, do you consider yourself to be not Christian? Or do you still say you are a christian?
Be careful now. You don't want to lie, right?
And remember the KKK may feel exactly the same as you when they are not as close to Jesus as they would like. They too did things they knew Jesus would not have approved.
Your two situations are structurally identical. Your only defense is that you did not lynch anyone.
Now when you are talking to some one other than a member of the KKK, perhaps a rapist, do you now draw the "christian line" at rape?
OK now shall we talk about a person who makes a mistake on their income tax. How about that as a "christian line"?
I can't say it any more directly. It is not left to you to distinguish who is a christian depending upon how you want to define them at the moment.
In that case the term Christian------has lost all meaning.
Is it your intention that this term have no meaning?
Do you believe Jesus wants to see this term lose all meaning?
GO and I are not posing questions in order to get you. There is something at stake here.
If people are to be able to help each other we have to be able to communicate. To do that we have to respect the uses of words and the use of language. You are failing of your most deeply held beliefs when you slip and begin to make up your own definitions for the words you use.
Better you say you are a pouiqehtgoqe, not a christian. Then tell anyone who asks, what a pouiqehtgoqe believes. But always give the same response whenever asked.
Edit:
Skip, just above I answered your comment before I even saw it. Read it and see what I am saying.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 13, 2009 - 04:29pm PT
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Skip, do you understand what YEAR Vatican 2 was initiated?
Do you understand that from my post that I clearly said 1955, and again
the "1950s". Why don't you look up date of Vatican 2.
Then apologize to me for YOU being "flat wrong" about what was indeed
church doctrine in 1950's.
I am not spreading "bs" as you claim, in fact it is YOU who does not
know the history of the Catholic Church.
It is I, as an ex Altar boy, who knows church doctrine better than YOU.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 13, 2009 - 04:32pm PT
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Hi Skip
I can't speak for anyone else, but Lynne's words don't make me feel threatened. They do, however, make me curious, so I ask questions. That's not wrathful, and I don't think Lynne feels that it is.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 13, 2009 - 04:39pm PT
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The Pharisees handed Jesus over to Pilate and the mob demanded a crucifixion fix, because they didn't have much else in the way of cheap entertainment back then. Pilate finally said, hey, if that's what you mongrels want, fine, ain't none of my damn business. Go right ahead.
A few days later Jesus's disciples were so freaked out by the whole thing that they broke into the tomb, stole the body and started telling people the whole monkey-gone-to-heaven story.
Simple as that.
Over the next couple hundred years this crazy cult, one among many, gained political power and established itself as the "wish fulfillment center" of Western culture. Other equally irrational belief systems developed elsewhere at other times. Thanks to literacy and publishing, these things perpetuated themselves and came into infamous and unavoidable conflict. So here we are today.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 13, 2009 - 04:44pm PT
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You know it really is quite unusual for a five year old to challenge so successfully a dictum coming down from an elder. "Where do all the other kids go?" he asked.
Norton even had the prospect of facing a rather angry mother.
I did not do nearly that well myself. I went to sunday school once where I had to spend the morning with crayons coloring a book of squirrels.
When my mom asked how I liked sunday school I said, "I haven't time to spend coloring squirrels! I have to get the plowing done!"
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 13, 2009 - 04:48pm PT
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It's amusing that the Roman Catholics didn't invent "papal infallibility" until 1870. Which presumably means that the preceding 1800+ years worth of popes (more properly, bishops of Rome) were fallible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility
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jstan
climber
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Oct 13, 2009 - 04:58pm PT
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Now there's some false witness.
Very disappointing.
Don't usually do this but "past" is the word for which you were looking.
Dr. F raises something interesting. A question.
If you did not know any language, would you still have a voice in your head?
Before language was invented, did people function worse or better than they do now?
Edit:
Actually on this topic I have to lengthen my exposition far beyond what I normally would. So as to try and draw the logical conflicts out in excruciating detail.
And I need to say I would have to ask for time to think a bit before choosing with which I would prefer to tangle.
Norton
or a grizzly bear
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 13, 2009 - 05:02pm PT
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Um, yeah, and it's "bear" false witness. You have a whole other thing implied there. More dramatic, fer sure.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 13, 2009 - 05:03pm PT
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Skip, YOU were the one who challenged my statement of fact regarding
Catholic Church doctrine in the 1950's. You said I was flat wrong, and
that I was spreading "bs". You then said that the Second Vatican Counsel
proved me wrong.
I pointed out to you that the Second Vatican was not until the 1960's.
therefore it was NOT IN EFFECT when I was growing up in the 1950s.
It was YOU who was categorically wrong in your knowledge of 1950s church history.
So now, because you are personally angry to be corrected by me, an atheist,
you resort to childish name calling.
I will NOT join you in your grade school level personal name calling.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 13, 2009 - 06:00pm PT
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" you ever hear a Rabbi say that if a goy (non-jew) believes in Jehovah in his heart, that makes him a Jew? It's preposterous! And if a Jew lives a selfish, petty life, but believes in Jehovah, that makes him a mensch (a good Jew)?"
God's Judgment and the Law
For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”
For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law. For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 13, 2009 - 06:03pm PT
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"And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O Lord, bless this Thy hand grenade that with it Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits, in Thy mercy."
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 13, 2009 - 06:22pm PT
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From UC Davis http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/
http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~vemuri/EngPopsci/How_old_are_we.htm
Prior to Kali Yuga was a stretch of time called Dwapar Yuga; it was twice as long as Kali Yuga, or 2 x 4,32,000 years.
Prior to that was Treta Yuga of 3 x 4,32,000 years. Before that, it was Krita Yuga with a duration of 4 x 4,32,000 years. All these four yugas together is a Maha Yuga, the Great Era.
So a Maha Yuga is 4.32 million years, ten times as long as Kali Yuga. Incidentally, the beginning of the latest Maha Yuga coincides roughly with, what modern science calls, the emergence of humanoids.
Twenty seven Maha Yugas is one Pralaya. Seven Pralayas is one Manvantara. Finally, six Manvantaras is a Kalpa. That is, one Kalpa is 27×7×6 = 1,134 Maha Yugas.
This works out to 1134 x 4.3 million = 4.876 billion years. And, according to modern science, that is the approximate age of the planet Earth.”
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 13, 2009 - 06:45pm PT
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Nature's God is wise and just. No discrimination. No hell to burn in. No dues to pay to a religion. No power struggles. No one to tell you what to believe.
He/She will judge you by your thoughts and actions and reward you with a paradise of incredible beauty, full of wonderful people, and anything you want to do. This paradise is called Earth.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 13, 2009 - 07:23pm PT
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Uh, Werner, 4,32,000 is not a number. But okay, maybe they guessed that one right anyway.
Do the Vedas mention the beginnings of multicellular life by any chance, or the rise of atmospheric oxygen, or the development of bilateral symmetry and spinal cords? 'Cause if transmigration of souls is real, we all spent an extremely long time coming back again and again as tiny little critters before any of that even happened.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 13, 2009 - 07:31pm PT
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I can't believe a thread this fruitful has had a 30 minute break.
It seems to me today the power that each of us seeks is entirely within ourselves.
The strength that is required to accept fate.
The flowering of human thought that originated in the Fertile Crescent five or six thousand years ago with the introduction of agriculture and was later extended to Greece long before the time of Christ just has not been sustained. It is as though we, somewhere along the way, have just simply run out of steam.
There have to be studies of this of which I am ignorant. But it is the primary fact in human history that grabs one’s mind.
WTF happened?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 13, 2009 - 07:40pm PT
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Go, I would never cast anyone out. The life that I desire to live is described by the words of jesus in the N.T. lynnie
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 13, 2009 - 07:52pm PT
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jstan, I am lost in your generalizations. All I said was that I, lynne, am not perfect. That's why jesus is my best friend. He forgives me and encourages me to keep on keepin' on and uses my failures to grow me into all that he has in mind for me to be.
He also uses my failures to be more compassionate to others who also fail. To comfort them as he comforts me. To encourage them to look up and keep on as he does to me. That's all. Peace, lynne
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 13, 2009 - 07:55pm PT
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Ghost you are right and your cat story made me laugh this morning. "A merry heart doeth good like medicine....."
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 13, 2009 - 08:02pm PT
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jstan, trying to catch up on all the posts as I have to go out of town. I think even if we had no language we would still hear God in our heart, soul and mind and being.
Dr. F, God made you unique and special Dude. There has never been or ever will again be a Craig like you. God is SO not to big to care about just you, Dude, and to listen to you and to talk to you. He made you and he loves you mucho ! Word !
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 13, 2009 - 08:33pm PT
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Finally, about this whole lynne hearing jesus issue. I had to ponder and think about what to say.....because even my brother who is a christian questions me on this.
"So what did God tell you today, lynne ?", he says.
When Dan died 20 months ago I had to make sure jesus was real. I mean I thought he was for a long time. But when your best friend has the power to save your other best friend and doesn't ......gotta question what up DUDE?
So beginning Jan 1, 2008 I spent at least 1-2 plus hours each Early morning reading jesus words and talking to him. I thought and pondered and listened as I looked out the window and saw the black night turn into grey dawn and finally a day.
I poured out my hurts, I yelled at him for what could have been, for help and for answers. I called it like I saw it. A "friend" totally letting a friend down. Like you prepare for an incredible ascent of El Cap with yo best friend ..... haul all the sheee to the base and the early morning of......no friend. Dude bailed.
That's what I felt.....but worse.
So early morning after early morning I talked and listened. Not only did Dan die, but my whole freaking life was tumbling down around me. One of the worst ever times in financial history.
So I listened.....began to hear him. Not always easy to discern. Jesus is a quiet talker. Sometimes he asks you to do stuff that take a leap of faith. And if you want to grow in communication, you need to take that leap. Like in any relationship.
My jesus is often called a shepherd. In the n.t. John 10:27 says,
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me."
You can take it to the bank, it's True.
Sometimes jesus just speaks quickly and you can hear him quite easily. But an overall life pattern, if yo want to hear what he has to say, you need to take time to listen. Marriages would benefit from this.....Listen, listen, listen and love, love, love.
lynnie
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 13, 2009 - 09:40pm PT
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Lynne, I don't think any of the atheist persuasion here has a problem with your personal Jesus, because you're focusing on the New Testament and its celebration of the love and benevolence that makes life worth living. There is no argument against those things, but no God is needed for good to be good.
The problem comes from people who say exactly the same stuff as you but kinda sorta don't really mean it in their private lives. The ones who use Jesus as an all-purpose get-out-of-jail-free card.
So when an atheist hears a hallelujia choir, there's always going to be a little uneasiness.
"Too many people have lied in the name of Christ
For anyone to heed the call.
So many people have died in the name of Christ
That I can't believe it all."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX5e0KQB8mU
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Oct 13, 2009 - 09:50pm PT
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"I'm not certain Deuteronomy is the book where JHVH is first located but
I think that's were I remember it being. JHVH errors were or still are noted
in the above book I read 2 decades ago."
Assuming other writings were not lost, JHVH first appears in Exodus 3:14.
JHVH translates to "I am"
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 13, 2009 - 09:51pm PT
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Cintune -- "but no God is needed for good to be good."
That is the most asinine statement anyone can make. Anyone
Such a statement is to make you the Ultimate judge and authority and directly/indirectly creating an unconscious veiled attempt to become supreme authority yourself.
Thus proves that god can not be eliminated.
Even a simply monkey can see thru that .....
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 13, 2009 - 10:16pm PT
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Anyone? Even Sri Ouroubindobabaloomalong? Cause, y'know, if he said it, it might be okay.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 13, 2009 - 10:26pm PT
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Werner you hit the nail to the head no tie off needed with that last one!!!
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MH2
climber
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Oct 13, 2009 - 10:34pm PT
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some speculations:
Religions most plausibly come from very early childhood experiences when we were taken care of by our parents and relations. In later life we carry within us a strong sense that when something bad happens someone will take care of us.
Religions may also reflect those putative over-arching neurons in our brains which allow us to connect fragmented experiences into a larger whole. Science looks at the small and particular but the small and particular eventually adds up to something more. Maybe there will be another great leap, or just fitful progress, in human awareness/consciousness/whatever and today's religions will be seen as precursors to that ability to grasp what we now perceive dimly.
Religions have great practical value for small groups of humanity, giving the group a powerful reason to survive and prosper, so religion has utility which may make the truth or falsity beside the point.
I'm not sure why jstan is impressed by a 5 year-old rejecting dogma since a lot of 5 year-olds have already done that several times before breakfast, on a typical day.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 13, 2009 - 10:40pm PT
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some speculations:
That's just you rejecting God?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 13, 2009 - 11:01pm PT
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Understanding the underlying reasons for people inventing gods in the first place, more like. Certainly rejecting the starry-eyed Bible thumping, though. If it floats your boat, fine, whatever. Nothing universal about any of it, though. Just a bunch of cultural constructs that have a strong appeal to some people, and others, not so much.
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MH2
climber
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Oct 13, 2009 - 11:07pm PT
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some speculations:
That's just you rejecting God?
Hell, no!
I sure wish I could use W.H. Hardy's ploy.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 13, 2009 - 11:08pm PT
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You're still playing God the Supreme authority cintune.
Imitating ......
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Oct 13, 2009 - 11:57pm PT
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Whoa, dejaaavuuu! I believe this show has been on before.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 14, 2009 - 12:32am PT
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And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
Talking about biting the hand that feeds us, everything we have is a gift! It seems people would rather believe in anything but God?
I know that here is no Eden for all of us but we need to show the love of God to each other.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 14, 2009 - 12:42am PT
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"5, I mean 3"
there really is some good stuff in this thread. Jstan really did it out of the park and I was im
intrigued by Werner's post shortly thereafter. Lots of other stuff, too!
Anyone can call themslves whatever they want, but I think it's stretchings a wee bit to, because the kkkers call themselves Christians, use them as an example of all that is wrong with Christianity.
But to end on a
more frivulous note; what do people who die during sex come back as?
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Oct 14, 2009 - 01:05am PT
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imitating... a gesture of friendship
aping... a gesture of, hmmm, well I don't want to stir the pot too much
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Oct 14, 2009 - 01:13am PT
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We have finite perceptions of an infinite reality, and we don't understand, but we want to understand, we need to understand, but we don't understand. It's OK, our "rational" minds are just slightly maladapted that way. Might be healthier to just look the other way, or just believe some finite story about infinity, whatever works for you.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 14, 2009 - 01:36am PT
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Over the next couple hundred years this crazy cult, one among many, gained political power and established itself as the "wish fulfillment center" of Western culture. Other equally irrational belief systems developed elsewhere at other times. Thanks to literacy and publishing, these things perpetuated themselves and came into infamous and unavoidable conflict. So here we are today.
---
What's missing here is that this, too, is a belief, possibly no less or no more irrational than those you gloss.
What happens when you chuck the beliefs? Are you still there? Is the sun still hot? Is the sky still "up" in the vault? What then is your experience?
JL
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jstan
climber
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Oct 14, 2009 - 07:16am PT
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The ancient Greeks gave us the logical process for "proof" thousands of years ago in their plane geometry.
Can anyone read this thread and say we have advanced?
Edit:
"But to end on a
more frivulous note; what do people who die during sex come back as?"
Lutherans
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jstan
climber
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Oct 14, 2009 - 07:59am PT
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What a wealth of excellent stuff in this thread.
"Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
Oct 13, 2009 - 04:52pm PT
jstan, I am lost in your generalizations. All I said was that I, lynne, am not perfect. That's why jesus is my best friend. He forgives me and encourages me to keep on keepin' on and uses my failures to grow me into all that he has in mind for me to be.
He also uses my failures to be more compassionate to others who also fail. To comfort them as he comforts me. To encourage them to look up and keep on as he does to me. That's all. Peace, lynne"
End Quote
This a reply to my post pointing out that Lynne all on her own decides that those who lynch others can't be christian but that she clearly considers herself still to be christian even " when not as close to Jesus" as she would like.
No generalizations here. I am pointing out her use of the word christian
is absent meaning.
She says the word because saying it makes her feel good.
Very like a security blanket.
Don't get me wrong. I think security blankets have their uses.
But they do damage if you cannot hold them up and say with a knowing smile, "Yeah. This is my security blanket."
Sooner or later every security blanket stops working. Not a big deal if you knew all along it was just a security blanket.
Whatever road we decide to take, it is always prudent first to look down that road a ways.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 14, 2009 - 11:12am PT
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Norton-
I commend you for rejecting arrogance and narrowness at the age of 5, but I think your logic was faulty. I too was told similar things and rejected them at about the same age. In my case I was living in Texas so I got the southern Baptist version which was "too bad about all the little children in China who are going to burn for eternity, because they never saw a missionary and got the message". I knew to the depths of my little being that could not possibly be true, but I didn't reject God. Rather, I saw through their ignorant and biased interpretations of God. Their God was way too small minded and human-like to be worthy of the name.
Then again, I never had religion pushed on me. My parents told me I could go to any church I wanted and make up my own mind. Hence I've always been interested in religion. Meanwhile I teach a course in Asian religions for our Asian Studies department and I've always observed that the students who are most antagonistic to religion are those who had it forced on them as children.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 14, 2009 - 11:53am PT
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Not typos. There are a wide range of values online. Here are a few references:
H. Erectus extant until ~ 40,000 years ago in East Asia
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_erectus
-------------------------------------
H. Erectus extant at 50,000 ya in East Asia
The species Homo erectus is thought to have diverged from Homo ergaster populations roughly 1.6 million years ago, and then spread into Asia. It was believed that Homo erectus disappeared as other populations of archaic Homo evolved roughly 400,000 years ago. Evidently, this is not the case. Recent studies into the complicated stratigraphy of the Java Homo erectus sites have revealed some surprising information. Researchers have dated the deposits thought to contain the fossils of H. erectus near the Solo River in Java to only 50,000 years ago. From http://anthropology.si.edu/HumanOrigins/ha/erec.html
-------------------------------------
H. Erectus extant until ~ 70,000 ya
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution
and
H. erectus lived from about 1.8 Ma to about 70,000 years ago (which would indicate that they were probably wiped out by the Toba catastrophe). Often the early phase, from 1.8 to 1.25 Ma, is considered to be a separate species, H. ergaster, or it is seen as a subspecies of H. erectus, Homo erectus ergaster. from the same page
and
from http://www.archaeologyinfo.com/species.htm
-------------------------------------
H. Erectus extant until 200,000 ya (sorry, can't display the chart, but you can see it if you follow the link)
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Homo
-------------------------------------
H. Erectus extant until ~ 250,000 years ago
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution
-------------------------------------
So, aside from the mention by the anthropology.si site (which says that it was formerly thought, but no longer) yours is the only reference for H. Erectus being extinct as long ago as 400,000 ya.
GO
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 14, 2009 - 12:12pm PT
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What does this have to do with the subject matter of this thread, fattrad?
Other than another display of narcissistic personality?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 14, 2009 - 12:17pm PT
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Fatty, have you even met Mr Walling?
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jstan
climber
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Oct 14, 2009 - 12:18pm PT
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Skip:
You know what you or I have done or have not done in our past lives isn't really the issue. I am raising the question as to what the word christian means when each of us gets to decide who is a christian and who isn't according to whatever criteria we want at a particular moment.
In that case does the word mean anything at all?
What do you think?
EDIT:
In order to reduce post count I want to ask Gobee a question relative to his post below.
"If YOUR God then you get to make up the rules!"
If god can make up any rules god can even change god's mind and change the rules.
How are we to be told when the rules have been changed?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 14, 2009 - 12:24pm PT
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"interesting about being judged. Law is not nice nor perfect.
Can god judge himself?"
If YOUR God then you get to make up the rules!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 14, 2009 - 12:27pm PT
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jstan
Original word of this "Christ" comes from the Greek word "Christo".
And yes you do have a bonafide reason to investigate what these words mean.
Nothing worst than blind faith.
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Oct 14, 2009 - 12:47pm PT
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Lynne,
Jesus is real? Corporations, LLC's etc. are not.
Scenario?
Porn actor a and b incorporate. US law may not allow for vicarious liability,
though the state of CA. does. a and b except money for sex which could
allow vicarious liability for prostitution upon their non-real entity status
but not individually?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 14, 2009 - 01:13pm PT
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Homo Erectus would be a great name for a gay porno.
It's always interesting when those with faith say "you are regecting God". I'd love it if God existed, if I experienced some acceptable proof I would totally accept him/her. I'd love eternal life. That's the rub. Religion uses those desires and fear of death to get people to believe what they tell them. How can all these different religions claim to have the truth about God when they all say different things? Maybe one of them is right, but you won't know until you die. I try to respect other's views but I take offense when religious dogma overrules reason and leads people to commit evil actions.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 14, 2009 - 01:18pm PT
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Those who wish may now take a short break.
Hollywood Squares:
These great questions and answers are from the days when ' Hollywood Squares' game show responses were spontaneous, not scripted, as they are now. Peter Marshall was the host asking the questions, of course..
Q. Paul, what is a good reason for pounding meat?
A. Paul Lynde (About fifteen minutes later): Loneliness!
Q. Do female frogs croak?
A. Paul Lynde: If you hold their little heads under water long enough.
Q. If you're going to make a parachute jump, at least how high should you be?
A. Charley Weaver: Three days of steady drinking should do it.
Q. True or False, a pea can last as long as 5,000 years.
A. George Gobel: Boy, it sure seems that way sometimes.
Q. You've been having trouble going to sleep. Are you probably a man or a woman?
A. Don Knotts: That's what's been keeping me awake.
Q. According to Cosmopolitan, if you meet a stranger at a party and you think that he is attractive, is it okay to come out and ask him if he's married?
A.. Rose Marie: No wait until morning.
Q. Which of your five senses tends to diminish as you get older?
A. Charley Weaver: My sense of decency..
Q. In Hawaiian, does it take more than three words to say 'I Love You'?
A. Vincent Price: No, you can say it with a pineapple and a twenty..
Q. What are 'Do It,' 'I Can Help,' and 'I Can't Get Enough'?
A. George Gobel: I don't know, but it's coming from the next apartment.
Q. As you grow older, do you tend to gesture more or less with your hands while talking?
A. Rose Marie: You ask me one more growing old question Peter, and I'll give you a gesture you'll never forget.
Q. Paul, why do Hell's Angels wear leather?
A. Paul Lynde: Because chiffon wrinkles too easily.
Q. Charley, you've just decided to grow strawberries. Are you going to get any during the first year?
A. Charley Weaver: Of course not, I'm too busy growing strawberries.
Q. In bowling, what's a perfect score?
A. Rose Marie: Ralph, the pin boy.
Q. It is considered in bad taste to discuss two subjects at nudist camps. One is politics, what is the other?
A. Paul Lynde: Tape measures.
Q. During a tornado, are you safer in the bedroom or in the closet?
A. Rose Marie: Unfortunately Peter, I'm always safe in the bedroom.
Q.. Can boys join the Camp Fire Girls?
A. Marty Allen: Only after lights out.
Q. When you pat a dog on its head he will wag his tail. What will a goose do?
A. Paul Lynde: Make him bark?
Q. If you were pregnant for two years, what would you give birth to?
A. Paul Lynde: Whatever it is, it would never be afraid of the dark.
Q. According to Ann Landers, is there anything wrong with getting into the habit of kissing a lot of people?
A. Charley Weaver: It got me out of the army.
Q. It is the most abused and neglected part of your body, what is it?
A. Paul Lynde: Mine may be abused, but it certainly isn't neglected.
Q. Back in the old days, when Great Grandpa put horseradish on his head, what was he trying to do?
A. George Gobel: Get it in his mouth.
Q. Who stays pregnant for a longer period of time, your wife or your elephant?
A. Paul Lynde: Who told you about my elephant?
Q. When a couple have a baby, who is responsible for its sex?
A. Charley Weaver: I'll lend him the car, the rest is up to him
Q. Jackie Gleason recently revealed that he firmly believes in them and has actually seen them on at least two occasions.
What are they?
A. Charley Weaver: His feet.
Q. According to Ann Landers, what are two things you should never do in bed?
A. Paul Lynde: Point and laugh
WE DON'T STOP LAUGHING BECAUSE WE GROW OLD, WE GROW OLD BECAUSE WE STOP LAUGHING!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 14, 2009 - 01:24pm PT
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Fet -- but you won't know until you die
You just said you have no proof, yet now you're making up your own proof, that you won't know until you die.
You don't even know what's going to happen to you after destruction of your gross physical body and you're already making these asinine statements.
See how ridiculous you sound. And this simple observation has absolutely nothing to do with religion whatsoever.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 14, 2009 - 01:33pm PT
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Yes Werner those are simple facts/observations.
I'm not so arrogant that I would tell everyone I know all and then belittle those that don't agree with me.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 14, 2009 - 01:37pm PT
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And how dare you say my body is gross!!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 14, 2009 - 01:43pm PT
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Sovereign means chief or highest; supreme in power, superior in position to all others.
There is no law above God, but there is a law in God.
God's Attributes
Holiness
Righteousness and Justice
Sovereignty
Eternality
Immutability
Omniscience
Omnipresence
Omnipotence
Love
Truth
Mercy
He never changes, He can't deny Himself, or He is always true to Himself.
That's why Jesus paid the price for our sins on the cross to satisfy God's justice, and only one who is sinless could pay that price, other wise he would get what he deserved. But because He was the Son of God, He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures. So whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. God is still true to Himself and gives us grace and mercy! You could say He paid His own Price, we accept that by faith, and give thanks! All, I mean all of us, deserve God's wrath, but His grace suffices, His Rules, Thanks God!
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 14, 2009 - 01:56pm PT
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Exactly. Which is why I think the only fair way to define the term is to let people apply it to themselves as they see fit. After all, no-one but you, yourself, know the contents of your own heart.
Oh, and maybe Riley, if you happen to end up in the ICU with a heart attack!
GO
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Oct 14, 2009 - 02:01pm PT
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Gobee,
The state of CA. and the US government have a waiver of sovereign
immunity. But if a state does not or the state entity has state immunity
I think a supreme person can take the state sovereignty to a US court?
Hence a private action.
I think the 12 lost tribes of Israel departed due to disagreement with
Bureaucracy associated to Messiahism being practiced prior to Christ?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 14, 2009 - 02:02pm PT
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I liked Cream better, but Blind Faith had it's moments...
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 14, 2009 - 02:08pm PT
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They didn't become extinct, they died, unless they were the last of their species.
A world? Now who's playing god? (to below)
Saw that thing many times, a greenhouse does not a world, make.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 14, 2009 - 02:12pm PT
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Yeah, how dare you say Fet's body is Gross. (it isn't is it, Fet ?:DD)
Did no one read jstan's jokes ? They are Hilarious !!!!! Thanks for posting those, Guy !!! lynne
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin' place
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Oct 14, 2009 - 02:17pm PT
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HOYLE'S FALLACY
from Wikipedia
Hoyle's fallacy is based on arguments most popular in the 1920s before the modern evolutionary synthesis, and is rejected by all evolutionary biologists.
The fallacy begins by (correctly) demonstrating that the search space containing some particular solution (e.g. humans, working cells, the eye) is enormous, something which is not contentious.
The fallacy occurs when the conclusion is drawn that the enormity of the search space implies that natural selection could not have located the solution. Sometimes Borel's Law, which states that very unlikely events do not occur, is invoked to justify the final step, although the fallacy which relates to the vanishing of the probability itself, has already been committed by this stage.
Hoyle's formulation is a rehashing of the older infinite monkey theorem, but applied to cellular biochemistry instead of the works of William Shakespeare.
The fallacy claims that the probability that a protein molecule could achieve a functional sequence of amino acids is too low to be realised by chance alone. Hoyle calculated this as being comparable to the probability that a tornado could sweep through a junkyard and randomly assemble a Boeing 747.
According to Ian Musgrave in Lies, Damned Lies, Statistics, and Probability of Abiogenesis Calculations:
These people, including Fred, have committed one or more of the following errors:
1. They calculate the probability of the formation of a "modern" protein, or even a complete bacterium with all "modern" proteins, by random events. This is not the abiogenesis theory at all.
2. They assume that there is a fixed number of proteins, with fixed sequences for each protein, that are required for life.
3. They calculate the probability of sequential trials, rather than simultaneous trials.
4. They misunderstand what is meant by a probability calculation.
5. They seriously underestimate the number of functional enzymes/ribozymes present in a group of random sequences.
Hoyle's fallacy is rejected by all evolutionary biologists, since "no biologist imagines that complex structures arise in a single step."
Hoyle's argument is a mainstay of creationist, intelligent design, orthogenetic and other criticisms of evolution. It has been labeled a fallacy by, amongst others, Richard Dawkins, principally in his two books The Blind Watchmaker and Climbing Mount Improbable. He has expanded the argument in The God Delusion, calling it the Ultimate Boeing 747 gambit.
The modern evolutionary synthesis explains how complex structures evolve by analysing the required intermediate steps. It is the intermediate steps that are omitted in creationist arguments, which is the cause of the over-estimating of the improbability of the entire process.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 14, 2009 - 02:22pm PT
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Cragman - the plants and animals you see around you were those that self-selected to be able to live in this world.
No such chance was given to the plants and animals in Bioshphere II.
If you left the place sealed and alone, all but a few species would probably die. In other words, they would self-select for the environment. Given enough time (maybe only tens or hundreds of years in the case of microbes) some would probably evolve to fill in niches in the environment that are unoccupied.
See how this works? It's actually not so hard to understand.
GO
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MH2
climber
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Oct 14, 2009 - 02:24pm PT
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Gobee sez
If YOUR God then you get to make up the rules!
It isn't that hard to do:
The Rules
For a space that is 'populated':
Each cell with one or no neighbors dies, as if by loneliness.
Each cell with four or more neighbors dies, as if by overpopulation.
Each cell with two or three neighbors survives.
For a space that is 'empty' or 'unpopulated'
Each cell with three neighbors becomes populated.
Those rules could generate this whole discussion, given enough space and time, and we could perhaps be embedded in a physical world quite different from the one we experience, though it doesn't seem likely.
Interestingly from a perspective Largo used, although the cellular automaton above is completely deterministic when run forward, the previous states can't be fully derived from the current state.
And to be safe, Thank God for the dose of absurdity from jstan.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin' place
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Oct 14, 2009 - 02:24pm PT
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You are an as#@&%e.
Children don't like it when you tug on their security blankets.
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Oct 14, 2009 - 02:29pm PT
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GOclimb,
do you have any verifiable records for pinus collections from species
somehow growing naturally above or just at the alpine tree limit of the
species?
I read in the past some of these were beneficial for the lumber industry
to produce accelerated growth with lumber needed due to past clear cutting?
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 14, 2009 - 02:30pm PT
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Another fallacy is exposed when you realize the absurdity of asking what the probability of finding life *exactly* as it is today, formed by evolution. Of course, assuming evolution is correct, the probability of going from early life to exactly what you see here is approximately zero! Does that mean it didn't happen?! No, obviously. What it means is that it could have happened in this, or any number of other ways. And the probability of *that* is exactly one.
GO
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 14, 2009 - 02:33pm PT
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GOclimb,
do you have any verifiable records for pinus collections from species
somehow growing naturally above the alpine tree limit of the species?
I read in the past some these were beneficial for the lumber industry
to produce accelerated growth with lumber needed due to past clear cutting?
??? Nope, never heard of it, why?
GO
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 14, 2009 - 02:33pm PT
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Midarock you nailed it, by far my favorite Cream song, though, 'Sunshine' and 'Pressed Rat and Warthog' are there as well.
Skipt, that is a very 'half empty' sort of view, there's stacks of better ways to say it, without rancor, even.
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Oct 14, 2009 - 02:36pm PT
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GOclimb,
Yes true!
Correct.
Correct.
What? I probably disagree.
It had something to do with another post of yours.
Btw, One of my computer science teachers taught that
we as programmers know truth because it's either 1 or false
0. I disagree with him.
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MH2
climber
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Oct 14, 2009 - 02:38pm PT
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WandaFuca:
The modern evolutionary synthesis explains how complex structures evolve by analysing the required intermediate steps.
Tries to explain, because it is the route to go.
However, a biochemist may tell you, as one did me, that even if the primordial soup got as far as DNA complexes and RNA complexes there is a HUGE step from there to any kind of interacting group of molecules which would reproduce itself so that evolution could take over from what chance had started.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 14, 2009 - 02:43pm PT
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Cragman wrote: GOclimb "Self selected?"
Sounds pretty wack to me; plants choosing to be there or not.
Not at all. Look, let's say a plant lives near a stream in a field. A seed from the plant falls into the stream, and is carried miles away, into a forest, where it falls into fertile soil.
What happens? That depends on the nature of the plant. It may grow for a season or two and then die for lack of light. It may thrive far better in its new environment than it did in the old one, displacing "native" plants. Or it may fail to grow at all. All this based on the simple nature of the plant.
That's what's meant by self-selecting. In a given environment, a creature may thrive or die.
Unlike God - we're not all-knowing. We can't just create an insta-world and make it thrive. IIRC, the two main problems they discovered with that experiment were that the cement they made it out of soaked up O2, and the microbes in the soil outgassed at levels unsustainable for the environment to absorb.
So they didn't get it right. But they learned! And that's well worth it, IMO.
GO
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 14, 2009 - 02:45pm PT
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I better clean out my fridge!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 14, 2009 - 02:47pm PT
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that's 'billions' of years Fattrad, not millions, but good point....
the superstisuos tend to have little appreciation of geologic time.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 14, 2009 - 02:49pm PT
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"you ever come home after a tour, and everything in your refrigerator is like, a science experiment?" Tom Waits.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 14, 2009 - 02:52pm PT
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Well Lynne, my body is grosser than it was 20 years ago!
And of course everything died off in Biosphere. I theorize suicide since Pauly Shore and one of the lame Baldwins were there.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 14, 2009 - 02:52pm PT
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Go-
Thanks for all the illustrations. I understand the question now but it's 4 am and I need some sleep.
I'll give it another try in the morning.
jstan-
Thanks for a good laugh just before I called it quits for the night.
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 14, 2009 - 02:58pm PT
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But GoClimb, where did that original plant that produced the very first seed come from?
It evolved from a plant that produced a spore.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 14, 2009 - 03:22pm PT
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Body Snatchers, no doubt?
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Oct 14, 2009 - 03:23pm PT
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THE WERNERS: LUGWRENCH CHRISTIANS PREPARE TO WALK ON WATER
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin' place
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Oct 14, 2009 - 03:30pm PT
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Where did THAT original plant come from then?
You could research plant evolution, but yours isn't an honest question; you don't really want our answers, do you, since you already KNOW the answer.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 14, 2009 - 03:34pm PT
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Cragman queried: "It evolved from a plant which produced a spore."
Where did THAT original plant come from then?
Exactly! That's exactly the point! Trace back millions of generations in plants, and is it any surprise that it doesn't look just like the plant who's seed fell in the river, or that it's pollen wouldn't be able to fertilize the modern plant's flower?
That, right there, is speciation (if that's a word) at work.
GO
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin' place
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Oct 14, 2009 - 03:34pm PT
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You are right for once. But I do have questions.
Where did YOUR original god come from?
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin' place
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Oct 14, 2009 - 03:43pm PT
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So I just need to disregard my skeptical, questioning nature, desire for evidence and my sense of probability.
Then if I have faith and just believe, I will know the truth?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 14, 2009 - 03:45pm PT
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What came first the chicken or the egg?
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 14, 2009 - 04:02pm PT
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Not sure I understand the punchline. Did you mean to type "bought"? You typed "brought".
GO
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jstan
climber
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Oct 14, 2009 - 04:04pm PT
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"Children don't like it when you tug on their security blankets.
Nothing of the sort.
It is just that when a tired and bitter old man can't characterize another person's life changing events any better than how he did and then goes on to defend it then you know the character of who you are dealing with.
Sad and very disappointing.
Skip"
I could not think of a better way to characterize this possible relationship to religion. I had never seen it used before. So I am fully responsible for that verbiage.
To start with if I were tired why would I be doing all of this typing. And as far as saying bitter things I think there are other better candidates here.
But let's once more pull back from irrelevancies and deal with the issue. Do you have a comment as to whether arbitrarily defined words can be usefully used in a discussion between two people?
I'll give you other examples.
I am a republican.
Do you learn anything from that statement?
I am a socialist.
Same question.
Discussions using the words christian, republican,socialist are foredoomed to go on forever and lead to nothing, if for no other reason, because we don't know what we are discussing.
The data supporting this are in the paper every morning.
Now as to Lynnie.
You have concluded I have wronged her. You feel that way because you think I am denying her something she needs for solace. You misjudge her. She is too strong to need any solace. How so?
Dan was an immensely strong man. He devoted himself to Lynnie up to the day he died. Would such a person do this with anything other than a strong woman?
I know whereof I speak. Lynnie and I nearly got into fisticuffs at Facelift. She is tough as nails.
Really. Ask yourself that question.
What should she do? Just what she is doing.
Stand tall among the rubble of what was once her life and say, "Dan is not gone. I am still here to give others all the things he taught me.
It was no midget who insisted on gathering us all together to honor John Bachar.
Lynnie doesn't keep mentioning Jesus because she needs him.
Jesus needs her.
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MH2
climber
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Oct 14, 2009 - 04:14pm PT
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Gobee again:
What came first the chicken or the egg?
Excellent sense of humor in this context, sir.
If you are joking, that is.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 14, 2009 - 04:18pm PT
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What came first the chicken or the egg?
My teachers used to get mad at me for answering these questions with "no answers."
The egg. The chicken evolved from an earlier egg laying bird.
If a tree falls in the forest with no one around does it make a sound?
If you define sound as a being experiencing sound waves as an sensation in their brain, then no.
If you define sounds a being the sound waves then yes.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 14, 2009 - 04:18pm PT
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Why did the chicken cross the road?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 14, 2009 - 04:20pm PT
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He liked "J" WALKING!
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 14, 2009 - 04:22pm PT
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Why did the chicken cross the road?
BARACK OBAMA: The chicken crossed the road because it was time for a CHANGE! The chicken wanted CHANGE!
JOHN MCCAIN: My friends, that chicken crossed the road because he recognized the need to engage in cooperation and dialogue with all the chickens on the other side of the road.
HILLARY CLINTON: When I was First Lady, I personally helped that little chicken to cross the road. This experience makes me uniquely qualified to ensure -- right from Day One! -- that every chicken in this country gets the chance it deserves to cross the road. But then, this really isn't about me.......
DR. PHIL: The problem we have here is that this chicken won't realize that he must first deal with the problem on 'THIS' side of the road before it goes after the problem on the 'OTHER SIDE' of the road. What we need to do is help him realize how stupid he's acting by not taking on his 'CURRENT' problems before adding 'NEW' problems.
OPRAH: Well, I understand that the chicken is having problems, which is why he wants to cross this road so bad. So instead of having the chicken learn from his mistakes and take falls, which is a part of life, I'm going to give this chicken a car so that he can just drive across the road and not live his life like the rest of the chickens.
GEORGE W. BUSH: We don't really care why the chicken crossed the road. We just want to know if the chicken is on our side of the road, or not. The chicken is either against us, or for us. There is no middle ground here.
COLIN POWELL: Now to the left of the screen, you can clearly see the satellite image of the chicken crossing the road...
ANDERSON COOPER - CNN: We have reason to believe there is a chicken, but we have not yet been allowed to have access to the other side of the road.
JOHN KERRY: Although I voted to let the chicken cross the road, I am
now against it! It was the wrong road to cross, and I was misled about the chicken's intentions. I am not for it now, and will remain against it.
NANCY GRACE: That chicken crossed the road because he's GUILTY! You can see it in his eyes and the way he walks.
PAT BUCHANAN: To steal the job of a decent, hard working American.
MARTHA STEWART: No one called me to warn me which way that chicken was going. I had a standing order at the Farmer's Market to sell my eggs when the price dropped to a certain level No little bird gave me any insider information.
DR SEUSS: Did the chicken cross the road? Did he cross it with a toad? Yes, the chicken crossed the road, but why it crossed I've not been told.
ERNEST HEMINGWAY: He crossed to die in the rain. Alone.
GRANDPA: In my day we didn't ask why the chicken crossed the road. Somebody told us the chicken crossed the road, and that was good enough.
BARBARA WALTERS: Isn't that interesting? In a few moments, we will be listening to the chicken tell, for the first time, the heart warming story of how it experienced a serious case of molting, and went on to accomplish its life long dream of crossing the road.
ARISTOTLE: It is the nature of chickens to cross the road.
JOHN LENNON: Imagine all the chickens in the world crossing roads together, in peace.
BILL GATES: I have just released eChicken2008, which will not only cross roads, but will lay eggs, file your important documents, and balance your check book. Internet Explorer is an integral part of the Chicken. This new platform is much more stable and will never cra...#@&&^(C% ......... reboot.
ALBERT EINSTEIN: Did the chicken really cross the road, or did the road move beneath the chicken?
BILL CLINTON: I did not cross the road with THAT chicken. What is your definition of chicken?
AL GORE: I invented the chicken!
COLONEL SANDERS: Did I miss one?
DICK CHENEY: Where's my gun?
AL SHARPTON: Why are all the chickens white? We need some black chickens.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 14, 2009 - 04:26pm PT
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Charles Darwin: Chickens, over great periods of time, have been naturally selected in such a way that they are now genetically disposed to cross roads.
Captain James T Kirk: To boldly go where no chicken has gone before.
Sigmund Freud: The fact that you are at all concerned that the chicken crossed the road reveals your underlying insecurity.
Martin Luther King, Jr: I have a dream! I have a dream of a day, when ALL chickens can cross ALL roads without having their motives called into question!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 14, 2009 - 04:26pm PT
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A CHICKEN IN EVERY POT!
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 14, 2009 - 04:33pm PT
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Oh nasty. Cragman just peed in the pool.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 14, 2009 - 04:34pm PT
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Why did the punk cross the road?
Because he was stapled to the chicken.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 14, 2009 - 04:36pm PT
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That's ok though, it looks like someone peed in Wanda's gene pool.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 14, 2009 - 04:36pm PT
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Cragman good story. The Stranger was saying if Yo had any faith in your Prayers you would have BROUGHT an Umbrella.......
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 14, 2009 - 04:42pm PT
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Thanks, Lynne! I get it.
Cheers,
GO
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 14, 2009 - 04:44pm PT
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Also, when you live a life of faith, GOD SHOWS UP!
Do you know what a tautology is?
GO
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Oct 14, 2009 - 04:49pm PT
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jstan - I'm not sure. I think part of the security of the security blanket is not really knowing it's a security blanket. It's still probably a good thing to have a security blanket. With limited information we can't tell the difference - probably healthier for us to believe it's real, whether it is or not.
Information theory tells us that the larger information measures the smaller information, not the other way around. I'm happy to let god judge me, and not insist on the opposite, as many (including some christians who insist that their finite understanding of infinity is the one "truth") may want to do.
For some the need to satisfy our sense of integrity forces us to admit that we don't understand. For others the need to understand leads us to insist that our story is the one "truth". Neither of us created our needs. We're all OK, just different manifestations of the same thing. It's not an either/or, it's an and.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 14, 2009 - 05:08pm PT
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Okay, so here's the thing, if I, as a non-believer, could convince myself that Jesus is real, and is with me at all times, then voila! To my perception - there he'd be, as real as can be!
So...
"Also, when you live a life of faith, GOD SHOWS UP! "
... is a tautology.
Of course that doesn't mean he's going to rain your crops, though. That's why phrases like "We cannot guess at God's ways, only that they are just" is such a lovely way for the truly faithful to explain it when their crops wither to dust and they lose the farm.
GO
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 14, 2009 - 05:26pm PT
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I would have drunk the bottle's contents. Wells have a tendency to run dry these days.
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 14, 2009 - 05:33pm PT
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Yes, I know. It's all about altruism. I was being a bit sarcastic.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 14, 2009 - 05:39pm PT
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^^^^^^^^^
Maybe a couple more jugs would be good to keep around. Just sayin'. Livin' on the edge with just one jug there, old man.
Previously.....
Over the next couple hundred years this crazy cult, one among many, gained political power and established itself as the "wish fulfillment center" of Western culture. Other equally irrational belief systems developed elsewhere at other times. Thanks to literacy and publishing, these things perpetuated themselves and came into infamous and unavoidable conflict. So here we are today.
Largo:
What's missing here is that this, too, is a belief, possibly no less or no more irrational than those you gloss.
What happens when you chuck the beliefs? Are you still there? Is the sun still hot? Is the sky still "up" in the vault? What then is your experience?
___
Sure, maybe rationality is in fact irrational, despite itself, but that doesn't mean it is just another blind faith. The significant difference is the approach of rationality and science is to remain open to revision and correction, while faith-based belief systems are generally founded on inflexible dogmas.
Experience unbiased by belief is what infants experience. And maybe again just before dying, if by chance there's any symmetry to it. Maybe that white light they talk about is the realization that "this is really the end, and it's okay." Only thing for sure is that we'll all get to find out.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 14, 2009 - 05:48pm PT
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This thread started about evolution and creationism drifted toward belief of God as they usually do.
Hers's an interesting survey:
Why do you believe in God?:
1. The good design / natural beauty / perfection / complexity of the world or universe (28.6%)
2. The experience of God in everyday life (20.6%)
3. Belief in God is comforting, relieving, consoling, and gives meaning and purpose to life (10.3%)
4. The Bible says so (9.8%)
5. Just because / faith / the need to believe in something (8.2%)
And the six most common answers given to the question Why do you think other people believe in God?:
1. Belief in God is comforting, relieving, consoling, and gives meaning and purpose to life (26.3%)
2. Religious people have been raised to believe in God (22.4%)
3. The experience of God in everyday life (16.2%)
4. Just because / faith / the need to believe in something (13.0%)
5. Fear death and the unknown (9.1%)
6. The good design / natural beauty / perfection / complexity of the world or universe (6.0%)
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 14, 2009 - 05:50pm PT
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No matter where you go there you are, except after you die?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 14, 2009 - 05:58pm PT
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Gobee asks: "No matter where you go there you are, except after you die?"
That's right gobee, you are no where after you die. You're getting it!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 14, 2009 - 06:07pm PT
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You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink!
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 14, 2009 - 06:14pm PT
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I like to picture Jesus in a tuxedo T-Shirt because it says I want to be formal, but I'm here to party.
I like to picture Jesus as a figure skater. He wears like a white outfit, and He does interpretive ice dances of my life's journey.
I like to think of Jesus as a mischievous badger.
I like to think of Jesus like with giant eagles wings, and singin' lead vocals for Lynyrd Skynyrd with like an angel band and I'm in the front row and I'm hammered drunk!
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jstan
climber
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Oct 14, 2009 - 06:14pm PT
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Very interesting,
1. People think themselves very influenced by good design(28.6%) but others not so much(6%).4.7/1
2.I don't need comforting(10.3%) while others are weaker(26.3%)...........1/.39
3. I am not as bible and raised affected(9.8%) as others are(22.4%).........1/.43
4. I need to believe in something(8.2%) about the same as others(13%)...1/.63
5. I am not afraid of death(N/A) while others do, a little(9.1%)
I had to combine two categories in line three.
In summary, I am about half as sensitive as others to the little stuff
but I am five times as appreciative of the world's good design.
No link to this study. A link? And when was it done and by whom?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 14, 2009 - 06:23pm PT
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Hear, hear.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 14, 2009 - 06:26pm PT
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I also thank George Mason, Thomas Jefferson, and James Madison.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 14, 2009 - 06:29pm PT
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"I also thank George Mason, Thomas Jefferson, and James Madison."
All Christians!
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jstan
climber
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Oct 14, 2009 - 06:43pm PT
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FET’s link is most interesting. You have to wade through some stuff on intelligence, but face it, we put up with that every day. I have not finished reading it but the following quote from Linus Pauling is seminal. (If you do not know him, Master Pauling wrote the bible on chemistry ie. “The Nature of the Chemical Bond.”)
“Creative geniuses generate a massive variety of ideas from which they select only those most likely to survive and reproduce. As the two-time Nobel laureate and scientific genius Linus Pauling observed, one must “have lots of ideas and throw away the bad ones … You aren’t going to have good ideas unless you have lots of ideas and some sort of principle of selection.”
Just from watching the technical literature you know when someone raises a new idea on what happens, for instance, when black holes absorb new matter, in later papers you can see everyone testing their ideas to see if they are wrong.
In the world of ideas – “The De’il takes the hindmost.”
Not being willing to test your ideas – is death.
But back to work………….
http://www.michaelshermer.com/weird-things/excerpt/
Oh and Gobee.
It was even on ST that we saw reference to Jefferson's work to extract all the things that Christ actually may have said from the rest of the bible. That being the case I take it you define "christians" to include those who take seriously only a portion of what is to be found in the bible.
This is very advanced of you.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Oct 14, 2009 - 06:44pm PT
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The meaning in the above parable is this:
The desert is the world in which we live.
The water in the jug is Buddha's word. You can squander it, or use it to it's full glory.
The water flowing out of the pump is enlightenment. Buddha taught that, "No one comes to enlightenment, but through me."
The old, rusty pump, is you and me. Our true self is revealed by being filled with enlightenment. We pour forth goodness when are hearts are enlightened.
The note the thirsty traveler added to the jug is Buddha's promise that his words will help us to enlightenment.
The thirsty traveler...is Buddha. He longs for pouring himself into all of us.
Seems to make perfect sense the way I have altered it. Can you prove that your Christian interpetation has any more validity than a Buddhist one? Or a Hindu one?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 14, 2009 - 06:48pm PT
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I thank the men in New England who fought the British occupiers for the
opportunity to "live in a country where all of us have the freedom to choose the things in which we care to believe".
"god" did not exist, so had nothing to do with it
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 14, 2009 - 07:00pm PT
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Buddha, would never say that because he's not there, and Hindu's can't squander it because they will be coming back again and again?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 14, 2009 - 07:04pm PT
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How old is the earth?
When did Homo Sapiens first appear, how long ago?
Why do we have "tail bones"?
Why do males have nipples?
Why is it SO difficult for some people to believe humans simply evolved?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 14, 2009 - 07:14pm PT
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answer the questions
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 14, 2009 - 07:20pm PT
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Norton, I wonder why you find the need to make people disbelieve their favorite fairy tales. In one respect, I think it is because they occasionally try to teach fairy tales to our children in public schools. I can see why you might not like that.
For myself, I don't generally bother to burst other people's imaginary world. Without the intellectual framework to support a reality view, there is nothing for them to fall back on. I don't want to try to force on anyone a view that they might find bleak or uncomforting to them. They are quite happy now. Why change things?
Now that I try to state my views, I actually find it difficult to put it to words. I'll have to think on it some more.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Oct 14, 2009 - 07:28pm PT
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Here's an interesting question to the Christians, but adjust it to yourself by adding Christian and removing your appropriate line. My apologies for not being well rounded enough to include more but I'm not that knowledgeable:
If the Aztecs were wrong,
if the Egyptians were wrong,
if the Greek were wrong,
if the Romans were wrong,
if the Buddhists are wrong,
if the Hindi are wrong,
if the Jews are wrong,
if the Muslims are wrong,
if the ... are wrong,
How the hell can you think that you are right when you have nothing more to go on then any of them? What do you know that is different than what they know/knew other than your parents telling you when you were born that you are right and all others are wrong. A 1700 year old book doesn't count since most religions have one of those.
Dave
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 14, 2009 - 07:37pm PT
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"I also thank George Mason, Thomas Jefferson, and James Madison."
All Christians!
Jefferson had Deist and Unitarian beliefs.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 14, 2009 - 07:40pm PT
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Brian, the difference is that children soon realize that fairy tales are
silly stories their parents told them to amuse them.
I don't have a problem with favorite fairy tales.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 14, 2009 - 07:54pm PT
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It seems people with stong convictions often base it on 'The experience of God in everyday life.'
Who I am to say they are wrong when I haven't experienced that myself?
How can they expect me to believe when I haven't experienced that myself?
How can you know you have experienced God when it could just be your own mind letting you experience what you expect/want?
As long as you are not infringing on me, be happy and believe what you want.
You can learn a lot from different beliefs even if you don't subsribe to them ,as long as you maintain an open mind.
I like this website:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 14, 2009 - 07:55pm PT
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Norton, once people reach a certain age, brains lose plasticity. Once a pattern of belief replaces the ability to think, there is no going back. Myself included. I like to think of myself as being open-minded, but an objective look would probably expose me as having the same sort of fixed ideas I supposedly revile.
Even so, espousing a philosophy of openness, of liberal thought, it's noble to my way of thinking.
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Oct 14, 2009 - 07:55pm PT
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Norton,
As Cragman told you, "the truth will set you free". What Cragman did not tell you
(although you may already be aware of it) is that The Truth is not a condition, a construct,
an alignment of your thoughts with reality....
The Truth is a person: He said I am The Way, The Truth, and The Life.... The Truth is a person,
Jesus, and he (and only he) can set you free.
Doug
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 14, 2009 - 08:11pm PT
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"How the hell can you think that you are right when you have nothing more to go on then any of them?"
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Oct 14, 2009 - 08:26pm PT
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Deano,
it appears he missed it the first time around,
and knowing how slow I am to learn things a reminder can be helpful
Doug
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 14, 2009 - 08:35pm PT
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 14, 2009 - 09:28pm PT
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“Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.
Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it."
Me, me, me. It's all about the Jesus. What an annoying person.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 14, 2009 - 10:09pm PT
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"If any man come unto me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Oct 14, 2009 - 10:15pm PT
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I sure hope everyone realizes we will all be held to account for what we say and do even here on ST.
I'm not the most perfect, that is for sure. But I have tried not to belittle others, call them names, and I certainly don't say anything derogatory regarding someones faith, even if I do not agree. I can respectfully agree to disagree.
Posting really derogatory stuff is really bad karma. It follows you to eternity.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Oct 14, 2009 - 10:43pm PT
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"I am raising the question as to what the word christian means when each of us gets to decide who is a christian and who isn't according to whatever criteria we want at a particular moment."...
Anyone who loves Christ can “call” themselves Christian, if they choose to.
In the end, who you or I call a Christian may not be binding.
I’d suggest considering Christ’s own declaration; “If ye love me, keep my commandments”(John 14:15).
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MH2
climber
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Oct 14, 2009 - 10:53pm PT
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I'm happy to let god judge me
Amen, Homer.
I preferred Martin Gardner's skepticism to Michael Shermer. Less wordy.
Skepticism an impenetrable prophylactic? What's going on over there?
Linus Pauling, right up there close to God.
Now in my day job I go around and photograph weird bugs and sparkly dewdrops but in my night job I often attend to old people who are dying.
WBraun I consider to be beyond my ken; not a person I would be comfortable to comment on in any way whatsoever. I am curious, though, what he would make of our current customary medical practice of giving dying people small doses, 2-5 mg every 4 hours for example, of morphine. Even then, we try to give morphine only when there are signs of distress, like tension or grimacing in the face, restless movement, or groaning. There is a recognized problem in that a few people who may only have pneumonia or some such may die earlier than they would have without our attentions, but our doses are so low and our staff are so afraid of killing someone that I don't think I've seen an example of that at our place. I have had a family tell me, "But Andy, this is her end-of-life!" when I stopped giving the sub-q ativan/morphine/scopolamine after a resident on palliative measures began to perk up.
The bigger question is whether death should be as natural as possible. Whatever the orthodoxy, there are skeptics and usually they should at least be listened to.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 14, 2009 - 10:59pm PT
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OK. We have no idea who is a christian and who is not because determining whether they both actually love Christ and also follow his commandments is largely a matter of dispute not open to factual determination.
Since there is no method for determining the fact then I personally shall consider there to be no actual Christians. Only claimants.
Thank you,
MH2:
When my mother was dying of colon cancer we were not able to control her pain. Until Curt's death I had assumed, had we gotten enough medication, that this would have been possible. It seems an open question to me now. My mother refused all food and water and was dead in two weeks. More recently I have read that this is not an uncommon occurrence. You may know more than do I.
In an end of life situation I think we have to go with the wishes of the dying person. I think this is their right.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Oct 14, 2009 - 11:09pm PT
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So most of those of you who are Christians say you are so because of your faith and because God/Jesus has spoken to you.
But most adherents to other religions would say the same thing. Can you tell me how to determine in a scientific manner which is right?
Thought not.
It's dependent on faith. That's fine. Faith up to a reasonable point is a good thing.
But let's not confuse it with something testable and scientific.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Oct 14, 2009 - 11:20pm PT
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God is love.
Post 1000!
He-he. I was waiting for it.
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wildone
climber
GHOST TOWN
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Oct 14, 2009 - 11:20pm PT
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Those who know Tao don't talk about it.
Those who talk about Tao, don't know it.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Oct 14, 2009 - 11:21pm PT
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Actually Cragman, I spent several years in an Assemblies of God congregation, so I do have some idea of what I speak.
I just happen to be willing to admit that there is a difference between faith and proof.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 14, 2009 - 11:24pm PT
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I don't think there is disagreement. Cragman says he is a christian so he is claiming to be a christian. I can live with that. Anyone else who claims they are a christian is on an entirely equal footing.
They both claim to be christian.
The fact is established by what the person says.
A done deal.
Really quite logical and equitable.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Oct 15, 2009 - 12:34am PT
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”I don't think there is disagreement. Cragman says he is a christian so he is claiming to be a christian. I can live with that. Anyone else who claims they are a christian is on an entirely equal footing. “
“They both claim to be christian. “
“The fact is established by what the person says. “
“A done deal.”
“Really quite logical and equitable.”
I don’t believe there’s significant disagreement about whether or not one can call oneself a Christian, Jstan.
My issue, three days ago, was giving credence to studies in which the relative numbers of Christians in prisons are used to estimate or represent the merit of Christian teachings in comparison to atheist values. If only a fraction of such incarcerated Christians have a familiarity with or understand the import and meaning of Christian ethics, how can we rely on those relative numbers to estimate the worth or desirability of those ethics ?
The same complaint could be expressed on behalf of the relative numbers of atheists incarcerated. Some “unbelievers” have carefully considered their atheism while others have not. Some have well thought out ethical beliefs, others have none.
For a study to indicate or reveal tangible trends we need concrete subject categories. If many Christians in prison have vague knowledge of Christian ethics or teachings, it’s improbable ascertaining the import or value of such ethics/teachings relative to those in the general population who may understand and follow such precepts and doctrines.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 15, 2009 - 01:05am PT
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Yup, Wildone, the way that can be known is not the way.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 15, 2009 - 01:33am PT
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Jennie:
After much discussion I have come away with the understanding we only know what the christian claims. So if someone claims they are christian for all intents and purposes - they are christian. Now if we all could agree to some other verifiable definition another approach might be possible. No such approach surfaced here.
You may have feelings as to who is and who isn't, but if how you have achieved this is not verifiable and agreed to by everyone who wishes to use the word "christian"
we don't have the ability to use the word. Its meaning is entirely unclear.
You are free to think as you please.
So am I.
Christians are people who claim to be christian.
Atheists are people who claim to be atheists.
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Oct 15, 2009 - 02:17am PT
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Getting back to creation. I could use a new sole or 6. Locker, are you back to the good work? I hope things are going well with you family and your eyes.
Also, glad to see that you are in good enough spirits to post a boating picture or two (even if it is a retread). Idle hands...
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Oct 15, 2009 - 02:24am PT
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"You are free to think as you please."
"So am I."
"Christians are people who claim to be christian."
"Atheists are people who claim to be atheists."
Jstan, I’m not vigorously disputing what you’re saying about claim to the word. It’s not my intent to exclude anyone from the rolls of Christendom or take their title, Christian.
My original issue, as I’ve written several times, is NOT with you, the title, or your definition of Christian. I objected to spurious STUDIES which suggests Christian precepts are invalid and cites numbers of Christians in prison as proof.
Again, using a group of individuals, apart from the general population, as a subject from which to conclude the value of Christian teachings will not engender objective conclusions. It shouldn’t surprise anyone that prison inmates tend to come from the reckless, despairing, deprived and demented portion of society; people who use religion for comfort but who ignore ethical dictates and responsibilities. Using such a group in axiom to appraise the consequence and value of Christian ethical tenets is nonsense.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 15, 2009 - 04:09am PT
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Go-
It seems you and I might be the only people on this thread still interested in the fossil record.
I've had occasion to think about this a lot recently as I'm just finishing a course in physical anthro for freshman and I've never seen the field so complex or controversial as it is now due to the plethora of specimens.
My conclusion is that the only way for non-experts to make sense of it is to think in terms of large populations. If we do that, then there are clear groups of fossils about whom there is no doubt. I had my students list them vertically down a piece of paper and then list a set of characteristics (when lived, where, brain size, tool type etc.) horizontally. That way they had an easy-to-read chart where they could check out individual groups and more important, see the progression of dates, brain size and tool types. I had a separate question where they had to discuss controversies of which there are so many at the moment.
Given this criteria, the broad categories of homonins that are well known include Ardipithecus, Austrolopithecus, Homo erectus, Homo neanderthal and Homo sapiens. They succeed each other in time, the brain gets ever larger, and the tool tradition more sophisticated. The only exception is Neanderthal who had a larger brain on average than H. sapiens, and since it was stored in a horizontally elongated head, made it increasingly difficult to be born to an upright mother (perhaps one of the several reasons for their demise). The superior adaptation of H.sapiens was to stack the brain vertically above the forehead and to not need as much of it due to the invention of complex language.
The current controversies involve the odd specimens (sometimes only one in a category) which may or may not represent the transitional population from one of these major groups to the other. Hence the arguments over H. rudolfensis, H. ergaster, H. rhodensiensis, H. habilis, and H. heidelbergensis. The case of H. floresiensis is a little different as there has been debate as to whether it is a descendant of H. erectus or a dwarf H. sapiens. That argument seems to be coming down in favor of it being an H. erectus descendant, particularly given the new dating and fossils from Java.
That said, the last controversy involves what happened to H. erectus in China. Unfortunately none of the charts you posted or any that I have seen, account for this well. Hence the claim that H. erectus lasted in Asia until 40,000 years ago. My interpretation is that because of the Chinese insistence that H. sapiens evolved separately in China, the politically correct anthropologists of the West have simply ignored the post H.erectus fossils the Chinese have found. Hopefully they will become more open to the Chinese data if not its interpretation, given the increasing evidence from Indonesia.
It seems to me the interpretation can go one of two ways. Either we say that H. erectus existed until replaced by H. sapiens out of Africa, (hence the 40,000 B.P. interpretation) or we say that H. erectus evolved into several more modern varieties in Europe (heidelbergensis and neanderthal), Indonesia (floresiensis) and in China (whatever we finally call the more modern specimens once the West accepts they exist and the Chinese quit insisting that they are fully modern H. sapiens).
Which way this battle goes depends in part on whether paleontologists decide to go with a general philosophy of lumping or splitting. Splitting and emphasizing differences prevailed when we had few fossils to work with. Lumping and emphasizing the range of variation within populations occured once we had larger numbers. Now, as the number of specimens has increased almost astronomically, the field seems again to be divided as to what to emphasize. Consequently it will be really interesting to see what the next edition of my textbook makes of it all. One thing I'm certain of, is that the undergraduate audience and the undergraduate textbooks have pretty much maxed out on how much diversity of fossils can be absorbed and made sense of in a 3 credit course.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 15, 2009 - 10:00am PT
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Lumping and splitting have pretty much gone hand in in hand in the study of microfossils, especially Foraminifera. Of which there is no lack of specimens. You can see speciation and other sorts of divergence, right before your eyes. repeatedly.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 15, 2009 - 10:38am PT
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"I objected to spurious STUDIES which suggests Christian precepts are invalid and cites numbers of Christians in prison as proof."
I agree, I have a friend who is in prison now and is closer to God and reads the Bible every day, for him being in prison has made him rethink what he is doing with his life and what matters. So you could say, see Christians are in prison. His words, "Prison is a real drag, very boring, very lonely, and often violent!"
He loves God and said he has read the Bible cover to cover in five different translations!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 15, 2009 - 10:45am PT
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No doubt that something as intense as prison offers the possibility to hone one's focus. Good luck to your friend, Gobee!
Riley, when are we doing the wyde?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 15, 2009 - 11:20am PT
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Skipt, my friend is at Corcoran.
GoBee
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 15, 2009 - 11:25am PT
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It seems you and I might be the only people on this thread still interested in the fossil record.
Not so. So please don't take silence for lack of interest. Very few can write about the fossil record, because very few know anything about it beyond the fact that it exists. On the other hand, anybody can post thoughts on religion, claiming their view is as valid as any other, so that discussion gains volume and goes on and on, often obscuring the good stuff you guys have been posting.
Keep it up.
D
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 15, 2009 - 11:28am PT
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 15, 2009 - 11:31am PT
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Thanks Riley and Ghost !
I think I have about one more thing to add and then I'm done.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 15, 2009 - 11:33am PT
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Dirtbag, that photo is a good example of Creation. No way those evolved naturally. Does this prove God is a Plastic Surgeon?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 15, 2009 - 11:41am PT
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[photoid=131121
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Oct 15, 2009 - 11:41am PT
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The fossil record; a topic of interest to many I think. A question for you fossil types, doesn't
the Cambrian Explosion present a few problems with the Darwinian Guessiry of Evolution.
Or is this another one of those topics we shouldn't bring up and attempt to discuss
Doug
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 15, 2009 - 12:03pm PT
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Gobee those prints are soooo lovely.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 15, 2009 - 12:11pm PT
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So.... What about the Cambrian explosion? For starters, it's not mentioned in any creation myth. So there's that. The record shows a sharp increase in biodiversity and the appearance of adaptations that kept pace with the planetary environmental changes going on at the time. So unless there is some specific argument about the details of current theories, just bringing up the topic doesn't do much for bolstering the creationist line.
(and Gobee, yes, those prints are lovely. The palettes and draftsmanship are superb. Did you make them?)
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 15, 2009 - 12:26pm PT
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Jan - that makes sense. Now I follow what you meant when you said that H. Erectus was gone by 400,000 years ago. In fact, we were on the same page all along. But the way you phrased it made it sound as though you were saying something altogether different.
Saying that "Homo Erectus was gone from the earth by 400,000 years ago" and leaving it at that is kind of a misleading statement at best. It implies that by 400,000 years ago the only H. Sapiens species were the new ones migrating out of Africa, and that East Asia was barren of Hominids from 400,000 years ago until H. Sapiens arrived much more recently.
If you come down on the side of the debate that emphasizes "split and speciate" then it would be better to say "by 400,000 years ago H. Erectus had evolved into a variety of similar but distinct species, one of which lived until 40,000 years ago in east asia." Or if you're on the other side of the debate, you can just say that a population of H. Erectus lived until 40,000 years ago in in east asia, undergoing some changes during that time."
Anyway, no matter how you slice it, H. Erectus was clearly the most successful member of our genus, ever.
Which brings me to another question, if you don't mind: I'm not 100% clear on from whom exactly either Neanderthal or H. Sapiens evolved. As best I can tell it seems that H. Sapiens evolved directly from H. Erectus in Africa, while the line to H. Neanderthalis is from H. Erectus -> H. Heidelbergensis -> H. Neanderthalis. With the last transition happening in Europe. Another less likely alternative is that Neanderthals evolved directly from Erectus.
If you have an opinion on the subject, I'd be very interested to hear it!
One of the reasons I'm asking is that assuming that the former is true, H. Sapiens moving from Africa into Europe must have encountered something very strange! A highly evolved (functionally equivalent) hominid that looked and probably acted radically different - three whole species jumps away! It's hard not to wonder what that experience must have been like, and how that experience may have shaped us.
After all, if the most modern H. Sapiens has been around for 60,000 years, at least 20,000 years (30%) of that was in a shared environment with Neanderthals.
Then I suppose there was also interaction between H. Sapiens and Rhodesiensus, and H. Erectus. But both of those must have been a little closer and/or more primitive - less of a threat.
GO
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 15, 2009 - 12:32pm PT
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Gobee - hope your friend in prison comes through as unscathed as possible - and gets out soon!
Now Jennie thinks that any studies looking at Christians shouldn't count him as one. Because he's in prison, that somehow invalidates him as a data point.
JStan and I disagree, and I suspect you would too.
GO
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 15, 2009 - 12:34pm PT
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"those prints are lovely. The palettes and draftsmanship are superb. Did you make them?"
I WISH!!!
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jstan
climber
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Oct 15, 2009 - 12:38pm PT
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Have we not seen before the fossil that Dirtbag showed?
Jennie:
Gobee posted about a fellow in Corcoran who, in his opinion has become a good christian. So if you are to eliminate such an individual from the roll of YOUR good christians you will have to eliminate everyone who has ever been convicted of a crime, or edit the criminal record for all those who have since accepted christ. Do you suppose someone will then advance the proposition that someone incarcerated may have other reasons for claiming to be a christian?
I know what you are concerned about but no one has proposed a way to do it that has been agreed to. From a statistical point of view might it be possible the number of "bad" christians will partially or entirely be offset by the number of "bad" atheists? In that case your study's conclusions would be unaffected.
Perhaps you will see how hopeless it is to attempt what you are trying to do if I raise the question whether the number of "bad" Democrats is greater or less than the number of "bad" republicans.
Here also we can not even define the word "bad."
What you are doing, good as it seems, is in fact very damaging. If we all are to work together to accomplish that which we need to do, we have to be able to communicate and to reach agreements. We have to treat language very poorly to do that which you seek. You have been called on this and we have spent time on a hopeless chase leaving much more important things to languish.
If we really want to move forward the the ideas advanced by Jesus we need to do everything possible to restore our ability to work together.
If you look at the problems Jesus faced and the society with which he was working, it was the inability to work together that ultimately killed him.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 15, 2009 - 12:40pm PT
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"A highly evolved (functionally equivalent) hominid that looked and probably acted radically different - three whole species jumps away! It's hard not to wonder what that experience must have been like, and how that experience may have shaped us."
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 15, 2009 - 12:41pm PT
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My original issue, as I’ve written several times, is NOT with you, the title, or your definition of Christian. I objected to spurious STUDIES which suggests Christian precepts are invalid and cites numbers of Christians in prison as proof.
Jennie, had you simply objected to the conclusion of the study, I don't think you would have had much disagreement. As I've said, showing causation isn't something you can do merely by counting heads. However you have been suggesting something quite stronger than that: that you disagree with the data itself. Its the claim you made that the prison population doesn't "count" because they're desperate individuals - that's what rings false.
Sounds like you're retreating from that idea. If so, I think you and I are much more aligned, at least on this subject.
GO
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 15, 2009 - 01:24pm PT
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Shesh, gone less than 24 hours......and so much to read and comment on.
First, Ghost: It is obvious to all that have met me my God is not a plastic surgeon. hehehe. Always enjoy your humor, Ghost !
Hi to Riley and Jaybro, see you guys at JTree anytime soon?
Norton, could I not believe in evolution and still be a jesus follower ?
Fet: regarding your poll.....I am a pragmatist and believe in jesus because it works. If it didn't I wouldn't. Didn't see that option on your poll.
Cragman, in your water/well story to me the most significant part was not highlighted. The last phrase, "you have to give it all away before you can get anything back." Doesn't jesus say, "he who loses his life for my sake, will save it." ? Maybe you did, I was trying to speed read to catch up as I have to blast off to Orange Co. :D
Cintune on 10/14 2:39 I love your sense of humor also, Dude.
Someone said something about, "so God doesn't send rain and you lose the farm, what about that?"
Well, I am losing the farm....well the place Dan and I were going to retire. Just spent last several days packing up the hopes and dreams. First day was hard. Yesterday, talking and listening to my best friend jesus, I began to know that I would have stayed in the rut of my life and played golf and lived the normal routine.
Jesus knew lynnie wants so much more from life so he used challenges and problematic situations to grow me and to change my life direction. It's like jumping out of an airplane. I can imagine I might be freaked out, but after doing it the new experience would far outweigh the scariness of the situation.
I need to unload the van and then hope to address jstan's thought provoking comments. Really, jstan we almost came to fisticuffs ??? I think you meant verbally, I'm not good at hitting other human beings....:DD and I never thought of myself as tough as nails......hmmmm, lots to think about. Peace, lynne
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Oct 15, 2009 - 01:28pm PT
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Lynnie,
You should have kicked jstan's butt ! In love of course :)
Doug
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 15, 2009 - 01:34pm PT
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Lynne, my family gives thanks before almost every dinner to God or nature or whatever we owe our existance too, and it's a very rewarding experience. I pray that you stay strong and get through these tough times ok.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Oct 15, 2009 - 01:39pm PT
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Jstan and GOclimb,
I appreciate your responses. This comes down to a difference of opinion but I appreciate your posts. I see several things I didn't before but my opinion about using prison counts to make sweeping generalizations about validity of Christian ethics hasn't changed.
I won't continue to belabor the issue here. Thanks for your time.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 15, 2009 - 01:40pm PT
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Lynne: "could I not believe in evolution and still be a jesus follower?"
You asked Norton, but I for one don't see why not. But he's your Jesus, not entirely the one in the Bible or the one that, say, abortion clinic bombers use to justify their acts.
There are way too many versions of Jesus. Until you find out the details, you really can't be sure which one someone might be talking about.
I'm fine with your Jesus, it's some other people's that really bug me.
And I'm sorry to hear about what life is dishing you, hang in there and here's hoping for better days ahead, sincerely.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 15, 2009 - 01:42pm PT
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Doug, we should have arm wrestled for the deciding factor of jess who was right, hehehe. Although he has pretty long arms.....maybe first to 5 in bocce. Looks like yo made it home ok.....Hope it's cold enough for you :D
Fet, Thanks Guy !!!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 15, 2009 - 01:46pm PT
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My dog in this fight is that I don't want decadent 'creationism' preached as science in the public school. Kids have enough stuff to deal with. Present it as philosophy or something, and I have no problem.
It AIN'T SCIENCE!
Also I think it's cool that Lynne and Jstan can have such opposing views and still be friends, sorta, even though she poked his eye out....
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2009 - 02:01pm PT
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Lynne, sure, there are many people who do believe that humans evolved
through millions of years of chance and natural selection on this planet.
Many of those people also believe that some 2000 years ago, "god" made a decision
to award a "soul" to those humans fortunate to be born after god made this
decision. Too bad for the people immediately before that moment of course.
Stroke of luck when your birthday was, apparently.
So, those who believe that having a soul given from god are quite sure
that they also have been guaranteed a life after death, and that all is well for them because few of us want it all to end at physical death.
This concept of humans having developed the consciousness for wanting a life after death can be observed as far back as some 20,000 years ago in the unearthed burials of bodies lying with physical artifacts placed by others.
My mom is 93 and in a full care nursing home. I am very grateful that she
derives peace and comfort from her Catholic beliefs, just as I do in my atheism.
You know Lynne, I do respect your beliefs. If they give your life meaning,
and most importantly, comfort, then that is a very good thing!
Best wishes
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jstan
climber
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Oct 15, 2009 - 02:15pm PT
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Actually losing the eye was no big deal. I could not see anything before either. At the time of the fight I asked Anders if I should arm wrestle Lynnie. He suggested, I would not do that were I you.
And yes Jennie we have appreciated your contributions. The world is so complex it is hard to know what is the right thing to do. There is a gate on the road that leads to becoming better. When you discover you have chosen wrong and simply admit you were wrong, the gate opens.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 15, 2009 - 02:15pm PT
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Jaybro, did we discuss this and I missed it ? What the heck is decadent creationism ? Sounds like a chocolate and green icecream from Ben and Jerry's. :D
Can't you just say.....there may be a God and he may have created....let the kids think and ask questions.
I mean the big bang etc. isn't taught as absolute with proof....isn't it taught as theory ? They didn't "teach" evolution and big bang etc. in my parochial school, but they certainly mentioned it and gave lynnie something to think about. Hey, most of us kids from say 7th grade on really inspect the theories our parents and the establishment DON'T want us to believe. Right ? At least I always did and I was no real Rebel ...:D
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 15, 2009 - 02:23pm PT
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I still need to respond to Norton, Cintune and jstan......but gotta get some stuff done.
I am finally hearing and "seeing" the jstan I have heard famous funny stories about from friends in the Climbing Community. What a great sense of humor, Dude. I may call yo Dude, mayent I ? Smiles and Peace, jstan.
Thanks all you Dudettes and Dudes for your kind thoughts.....they mean much to me as I journey through the day. It gives a sense of comfort and peace to know people care.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 15, 2009 - 02:38pm PT
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"Can't you just say.....there may be a God and he may have created....let the kids think and ask questions."
Of course, no problem, I didn't address that.
I said that creationism is decadent. It is a denial of science. To promote creationism, especially in today's modern world, especially to do it over the internet, which has some undeniable, scientific roots, is, by definition, decadent. ie, disresgard of how you got there in the first place. To claim that it works, is to deny the medium on which you are communicating.
Believe what you want to believe, on your own time. To claim that creationism is science shows an ignorance of the meaning of the word science.
Science is apart from any religion's dogma. I'm an educator, this shitd bugs me!
We will, as a society, keep falling apart, if this nonsense keeps up.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 15, 2009 - 02:44pm PT
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Lynne-
Of course you're tough as nails! How could you possibly think otherwise?
Anyway, good to have you back. As you can see, we are moving right along.
Only 11,000 more posts to catch up to the Republican thread!
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jstan
climber
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Oct 15, 2009 - 02:53pm PT
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There are surely those better than myself to talk about science and the Big Bang. I'll horn in here because there is an underlying truth too seldom seen.
In the physical sciences there really are no absolutes. There is no absolute truth. If you have a model that predicts a measurement within one centimeter, you have no way of knowing the model will still be so right when your measurement's precision has improved to one billionth of a centimeter.
What is taught? At any time we have different models for any given phenomenon. One of the models will allow calculations of a measurable quantity that are better than the calculations of the other models. You learn science because you want to go out and do something. So if you want to go out and work on a particular problem, you have to learn all about the model that gives the best results for that problem.
It's that simple.
Our complaint about Intelligent Design, for example, is that it does not tell us anything. It does not lead to a better understanding of anything. We are stuck with what we have.
Let me run on a bit more. How might we make a scientific application of religion?
Let's say religion is an effort to improve the way we treat each other. Let's just say that. What would a technical person do?
First they would have to define a good way to quantify the goodness of the way we treat each other. There will be several candidates for this, of course.
Then they would go out and test the societies that employ different schemes for improving/controlling the way people treat each other and they will use each of these candidates on each society.
Then they would sit down and discuss the data to see what trends might be present and to see which of the candidates show good properties and under which conditions.
The next step is immensely important. Based on the data a small subset of the societies would have their rules changed.
Later data MIGHT show what any subsequent changes should do, and which of the candidates seem to work better.
It is a hard slow process. But there is no excitement which equals that which you get when a clear trend pops up. Something never before seen. It will never be exactly what you expected. That makes it even better.
Every day nature is trying to tell us how things work. I have seen cases where she had literally to scream in our ears before we would listen.
Pretty exciting finally to hear her voice.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 15, 2009 - 02:58pm PT
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Science: Knowledge, especially that gained through experience.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2009 - 02:59pm PT
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Gobee, you have posted links from a creationist, like yourself.
Finding someone who agrees with you proves nothing, we can all do that.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 15, 2009 - 03:04pm PT
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"I have no need of Faith, I have experience." -Joseph Campbell
Pretty much the most spiritual person I have been in touch with.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 15, 2009 - 03:04pm PT
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But I'm not running to the dugout! Safe....
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 15, 2009 - 03:08pm PT
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Gobee, I am a card carrying jesus follower. I believe Every word he has spoken in the n. t.
I am hurried so only got to fly through your first link. Will inspect all thoroughly tonight when life calms down.
I am at a loss for words. Maybe because I have no tv or newspaper and live pretty simply. I did not know that evolution was trying to disprove God. I thought evolution was trying to put forth evolution as a theory for how all things that exist were created.
I personally believe God created all things....I just don't know how He did it. Peace,Lynne
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 15, 2009 - 03:09pm PT
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Jaybro-
Did you actually know Campbell? He's a big hero of mine. I have a couple dozen videos of his lectures and watch them every year or so. I have new insights every time.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 15, 2009 - 03:11pm PT
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"I personally believe God created all things....I just don't know how He did it."
Really who does? Your right on Lynn, keep'n it real! Your the BEST!
Edit; But God did His magic in six day's, no tricks!!!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 15, 2009 - 03:18pm PT
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Jan, no. I met him once, and had some correspondence with him.
'I did not know that evolution was trying to disprove God." Me neither.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2009 - 03:19pm PT
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Lynee, "evolution" is NOT "trying to disprove god".
That is the us against them mentality of the creationist author Gobee selected.
Darwin, and future scientists, did not set out to disprove creationism.
Their intent was to seek scientific evidence that supported their assumption
that life evolved by natural selection.
In fact, a number of scientists who fully endorse evolution, also do
believe in some concept of "god", either a personal one, or overall creator.
This belief does not stop them at all from also believing that life evolved
on this planet by darwinian natural selection.
Scientists are far from "lazy", they spend their lives searching for truths.
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 15, 2009 - 03:25pm PT
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Somewhere upstream someone asked about the compatibility of evolution and Christian faith.
The Catholic Church allows for belief in both cosmological and biological evolution. In both cases, Catholic dogma states that God put things in motion. "While the Church permits belief in either special [Biblical] creation or developmental [evolutionary] creation on certain questions, it in no circumstances permits belief in atheistic evolution." In other words, the Big Bang was caused by God, and that at some point man evolved to the point where God gave him an eternal soul.
The Catholic Church is one branch of the Christian world that seems to allow a non-literal interpretation of the Bible.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 15, 2009 - 03:28pm PT
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Lots of religious beliefs are amenable to coexisting with evolution. It's those that don't that produce devo / decadence.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 15, 2009 - 03:37pm PT
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Ok, Malone, Dude, :DD, you bring up a point someone else mentioned about the soul....coming along at a later point. I guess it is a blessing to be simple.....like lynne.
A person born, a soul comes along with the package. No matter what age or era they come from.
You know when you read and re read etc. x times alot the bible..... I don't think God's main and major focus is so much on how he created or how long it took. (obtw I am of the how long is a day camp? Cause it does say in the bible that 1000 years is like a day to God. An example that time with God is not the same as time with a humanoide.)
To me the primary focus of God is 1)He wants a relationship with his creation and 2)He loves us and wants to spend eternity with us. Being God, 3) He made a provision for each of those things so they could happen.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 15, 2009 - 03:43pm PT
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Norton and Jaybro, will need to look more into the above links perhaps we can dialogue this evening. I was surprised at the information in the first link by McArthur as he is respected in the christian community. A puzzled, lynne
jstan, you've written some good stuff. Will adress tonight. Peace, lynne
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 15, 2009 - 03:50pm PT
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"WERNER KNOWS BEST", he keeps me honest, and laugh'n to!
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 15, 2009 - 03:59pm PT
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Lynne,
A person born, a soul comes along with the package. No matter what age or era they come from. Yep!
The Catholic point of view is that evolution is not at odds with God. "Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul."
12 years of Catholic schooling. My sister's a nun. Dad's best friend is a Cardinal - not the baseball type. I am not a Catholic, although my kid attends a Catholic university. I was raised to be one. I have respect for their willingness to address these types of issues although I have huge disagreements with them in other matters of Faith.
What do I believe? God made it happen. Don't know how...
Malone
EDIT: "To me the primary focus of God is 1)He wants a relationship with his creation and 2)He loves us and wants to spend eternity with us. Being God, 3) He made a provision for each of those things so they could happen."
Amen, Lynne. Agreed.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 15, 2009 - 04:00pm PT
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Gobee-
Beautiful scenes from Japan. The one with the fish looks like those I see every time I go snorkeling in Okinawa. The Mount of the Holy Cross brought back memories of Colorado vacations as a child. Unfortunately, there was a rock avalanche a few years back which destroyed the shape of the cross, so I'm happy to download your card as a momento. Thanks!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 15, 2009 - 04:02pm PT
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Whether or not someone believes in something is also not the final arbiter for 'truth'. You can go to your grave believing in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, or god but your believing doesn't make any of the them real, 'true', or any form of shared, objective reality.
[ jan - 'snorkeling in Okinawa' - ah, definitely one of life's finer pleasures. ]
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 15, 2009 - 04:08pm PT
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The predominant belief among comsmologists has been that The Big Bang was a time when all "creation" was compressed into a point, or singularity. By definition, a singularity has no information. It's a black box and we can't know anything that may have come before it.
This allows those of religious mind to say, "okay, let us say that God created the Big Bang and set it in motion". The laws that He created determined how the Universe expanded out of that singularity".
But wait a minute. As cosmologists continue to gain finer and finer insight into the structure of the Universe, some of them are beginning to think that vestiges of structure in the microwave background radiation suggest that perhaps the Big Bang had structure after all. Some are so audacious to say that we might be able to eventually say something about what came BEFORE the Big Bang.
Then the rest of us will have to scramble again to reconcile our own beliefs with what the scientists tell us.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 15, 2009 - 04:13pm PT
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Henchy, Don't hold your breath, God was always before!
Edit; I put those up for you Jan!
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 15, 2009 - 05:02pm PT
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It's interesting that the Catholic Church which used to burn people at the stake for saying the Earth revolves around the Sun has now seen the writing on the wall and admits evolution is how humans got here.
Yet many see evolution as an attack on their beliefs and can't accept it no matter how overwhelming the evidence.
It seems more logical to me to incoporate evolution into your beliefs than to reject it using contrived reasoning.
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 15, 2009 - 05:10pm PT
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The Fet,
Minor correction. The CC only says that "evolution is how humans got here" is not inconsistent with Church dogma. It also says that creation as stated in the Bible is not inconsistent with Church beliefs. It does not take a stand on which happened.
“Concerning biological evolution, the Church does not have an official position on whether various life forms developed over the course of time. However, it says that, if they did develop, then they did so under the impetus and guidance of God, and their ultimate creation must be ascribed to him.”
http://www.catholic.com/library/Adam_Eve_and_Evolution.asp
It is ironic and amazing that the church that once burned people at the stake has taken this view. The Church scientists/theologians who made this happen had some brass ones.
gm
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 15, 2009 - 05:16pm PT
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Don't Fet,
The Catholic Church is wrong, the Pope is only the head of the Catholic Church, like any Pastor of any other Church. No matter how many times you stand up or kneel down, or confess and Hail Mary, you still need Jesus to forgive you. And trust that what God says, is true!
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MH2
climber
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Oct 15, 2009 - 05:31pm PT
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jstan:
When one of our residents starts refusing food on a regular basis, that is taken as a sign that they have decided they are ready to die. Most of our people have dementia. Eating or not eating is often just about the only degree of freedom they have left.
If we don't already know the person's wishes regarding pain relief, and many don't like drugs in general or the side effects, you have to go by what the family can tell you about the person. Most of us don't mind a little pain relief for that toothache Ed brought up and we wouldn't object to it in the final hours, either. Pain can be controlled as long as the MD prescribes sufficient dosing and staff are willing to use it.
Jan:
I'd like to echo Ghost (haha) and say that I am very interested in human ancestry, though mostly in what adaptations they show for climbing.
I think this thread does tie back into climbing in several ways. For one thing, our ancestors probably died without drugs for pain relief.
Also, climbers can have unusual experiences that are at least quasi-religious. Voytek Kurtyka's Path of the Mountain essay has those overtones. And another example:
"In the face of potential struggle for survival, the petty concerns of my little self dare not surface. I feel the power of my real being, integrated and intimate."
(from http://www.yosemiteclimber.com/Rewards_of_Climbing.html);
I myself don't have the temperament to look too far inward or outward. But although I'm not looking for depth, and certainly not for God, I recognize a pointer to the address when I see it:
1854
John Muir is 15 years old
His father says, “You may get up in the morning as early as you like.”
“That night I went to bed wishing with all my heart and soul that somebody or something
might call me out of sleep to avail myself of this wonderful indulgence; and next morning
to my joyful surprise I awoke before my father called me. A boy sleeps soundly after
working all day in the snowy woods, but that frosty morning I sprang out of bed as if
called by a trumpet blast, rushed downstairs, scarce feeling my chilblains, enormously
eager to see how much time I had won; and when I held up my candle to a little clock that
stood on a bracket in the kitchen I found that it was only one o’clock. I had gained five
hours, almost half a day! ‘Five hours to myself! I said, ‘five huge solid hours!’ I can
hardly think of any other event in my life, any discovery I ever made that gave birth to joy
so transportingly glorious as the possession of these five frosty hours.”
John Muir for weeks afterwards spent the hours from 1-6am making a clock that could
dump him out of bed at an early hour. When his father learned about this ludicrously
unnecessary invention he ‘very nearly laughed.’ Considering his father's character, this was one of Muir’s more amazing achievements.
At University of Wisconsin, Muir literally hitched a wagon to a star.
John Muir spent 4 years at University. He and his brother Dan went to Canada during the
Civil War.
June, 1864
Simcoe County, Ontario
“Hunger and weariness vanished, and only after the sun was low in the west I plashed on
through the swamp, strong and exhilarated as if never more to feel mortal care.”
John Muir after seeing a Calypso orchid
As counterpart to Gobee's series of images
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 15, 2009 - 05:33pm PT
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Gobee,
"And trust that what God says, is true!"
Do you believe that the Bible as written, translated and available to us English speakers is literal truth?
gm
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 15, 2009 - 05:47pm PT
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Skip,
Agreed.
I wasn't going down that path. I was more interested in Gobee's perspective than in picking nits.
gm
EDIT: Skip, Cool and thanks.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 15, 2009 - 05:54pm PT
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MH2.....wonderful contribution on John Muir I had never heard before. I too
in the last several years claim early hours as vacation and opportunity. Thanks MH2 !!!
Wonderful contributors, I am hitting the freeways keep me in yo thoughts. Will hopefully join the forum tonight. jstan especially, for your brain provoking ideas.....I owe you several replies. Peace all and Cheers, lynne
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin' place
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Oct 15, 2009 - 05:56pm PT
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Even if you do not believe that the Bible is total literal truth does not mean the simple and serious truths are not contained within it in boatloads.
I prefer to worship Shakespeare.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin' place
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Oct 15, 2009 - 06:04pm PT
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I actually don't worship anything. I dislike the word.
When you are full of hate and stupidity you can find all kinds of nifty things to worship.
Skip
But only the god-delusion will do when you're full of fear and pain.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 15, 2009 - 06:07pm PT
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Wanda may be joking....but if not, hey....people think, react, respond and then build life philosophies from all the information presented to them.
Sometimes in my case I need time and life to give perspective and insight to all I learn day after day and month after month. Hopefully we are all growing in relationship to our fellow dudettes and dudes on this planet...and god. If you so choose to believe in one.
I am reflecting intensley again on God as yet another one close to me will soon pass from this earth to.....well, what do you believe ? And better yet, when yo lying there and death says howdy.....what will you believe then ? Jess asking cause it's so very real. lynne
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin' place
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Oct 15, 2009 - 06:24pm PT
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well, what do you believe ? And better yet, when yo lying there and death says howdy.....what will you believe then ?
In myself and others.
I hope that, in sum, my stay on this earth will have made things just a little better for everything and everyone, or at the very least, the sum of my life hasn't made things worse.
I want to enjoy, seek understandings and experience as much as I can, and I am unwilling to make intellectual compromises for my own emotional or "spiritual" comfort during my time here.
Because when I near oblivion, I want to feel that I made the best of this short time, this wonderful, painful, unexplainable, meaningless gift, because that's all I'm probably going to get.
(edit) for skip: I was being a smartass about worshipping The Bard. The comment about pain and fear was a counter-punch for your insult.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 15, 2009 - 06:38pm PT
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Drive carefully! No posting while driving, esp in Kaliphoniya, it's the law!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 15, 2009 - 06:42pm PT
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A few days before Thoreau died a friend said "You seem so near the brink of the dark river that I almost wonder how the opposite shore may appear to you." He answered "One world at a time."
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 15, 2009 - 07:06pm PT
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"Do you believe that the Bible as written, translated and available to us English speakers is literal truth?"
That's ink and paper, God IS Truth, but it's what He said!
Edit; The Bible is for us!
Is a photo you?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 15, 2009 - 07:16pm PT
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What, is "what He said"? the ink and paper part? Are you telling us to disregard the bible? Did your post make sense to you?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2009 - 07:35pm PT
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I have a friend who is a modern day Quaker.
Out of curiosity, I once asked him whatever happened to
the Shakers. He said they were an offshoot of the Quakers
that believed in very limited physical contact between the sexes.
Husbands and wives slept in separate rooms, and attempted
sex only to produce children. The Shakers died out quickly
because their natural death rate was higher than their birth rate.
The Shakers, it is said, literally shook while praying.
My friend is a highly regarded Doctor, a true man of science,
who is also a deeply devout Christian. He, like many people,
see no conflict between believing in god and at the same time, evolution.
He does not believe that evolution was "made up" to discredit creationism.
He believes completely in Darwinian evolution, and that god gave
humans a soul at some point in their evolution. When, he does not care.
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 15, 2009 - 07:42pm PT
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Thanks, Cragman.
Post of the day. LOL.
Sorry, Locker.
Best to both of you,
gm
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jstan
climber
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Oct 15, 2009 - 07:45pm PT
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There is never a need to "believe" in anything.
"Believing" is a dead end as it has no logical extension. It leads nowhere.
I "think" the concept of parsimony has been exceedingly useful over the last several millennia.
In common usage the word "believe" has been co-opted in the religious context.
It means thinking something to be true despite the absence of confirming data.
"Think", at least so far, implies freedom of choice on the part of the person.
From webster's 9th:relevant excerpts:
Believe: 1a. To have a firm religious faith, 1b; to accept faithfully and on faith 2. to have a firm conviction as to the reality or goodness of something.
3. To hold an opinion
Meaning 3 has been subjugated in popular usage.
Think: To consider to be true or honest; to hold an opinion
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 15, 2009 - 07:55pm PT
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The Bible says don't add to it or take away from it!
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin' place
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Oct 15, 2009 - 07:56pm PT
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As so many are clear it is all about trying to get you to reject your faith.
An ass-backwards characterization; like saying those who are pro-choice are trying to get more abortions.
It's not about rejecting faith, it's about embracing rigorous rationality.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 15, 2009 - 08:07pm PT
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It is about use of language in a way that supports good function in society.
I will note here that those who count "faith" and proper treatment of their fellows to be their strong suit, are the most ready to cast aspersions on the quality. integrity, and intelligence of those with whom they disagree.
If I understand what Jesus said and if I 'believed" we all would one day stand in judgment, I would be very worried had I a history of acting in this way.
It is good that this is so. For so long as this behavior continues we will never forget that people of this conviction were once pleased to cause their fellows to be burned alive at the stake.
We have all the data needed to convince us nothing has changed.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin' place
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Oct 15, 2009 - 08:07pm PT
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Why so snippy skippy?
I've never had faith in your (or my) rationality skip; I try to maintain a healthy skepticism.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 15, 2009 - 09:06pm PT
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That's just Bananas!
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin' place
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Oct 15, 2009 - 09:20pm PT
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It's monkey business!
(edit) thanks, single-stone.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Oct 15, 2009 - 09:23pm PT
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I like your style Wanda!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 15, 2009 - 10:03pm PT
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Cool, I trim trees!!!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 15, 2009 - 10:17pm PT
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jstan, if you can just be patient and bear with me....I have serious close friend health issues going on here.....and jstan
I appreciate all you have posted and want to comment, but I want to try and give you a good thoughtful response.
EDIT: Three issues I want to address....I'll begin with the last. BELIEVING.... I believe my husband is coming home tonight. I believe my child will make it home from school. I believe my best friend will always be just that....my best friend.
To me believing is a gut feeling that it will happen. Believing.....vs. Faith.
In the Websters....Belief is an opinion or conviction
In the Websters...Faith is confidence/trust
So I do not believe in my friend jesus....I have faith in him for lynnies life.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 15, 2009 - 11:53pm PT
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Wrote Oscar Hammerstein:
Who can understand it?
Who can tell you why?
Fools give you answers-
Wise me never try.
Problem is, it's sometimes fun and stimulating to try and provide "answers" and to be "right." But push this too far and I can be a "fool" every time.
JL
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jstan
climber
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Oct 15, 2009 - 11:54pm PT
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There's no rush Lynnie. Just take it easy. Tomorrow we are off on an adventure.
Hooblie and I are taking a step into the future. He is coming North by bus and I am going south by bus(Coastal Express) to Ventura with our bicycles. Then we will bicycle around Ventura stopping every few minutes to slander everybody and everything most viciously. I don't have an iPhone so there will be no texting. If anyone sees a blue cloud over Ventura, not to worry.
Some day it would be nice to put on my touron hat and bicycle around Europe, but not tomorrow.
Catch you later.
PS:
Read your post. That's cool.
I "think" a lot of our problems are made worse because we are not careful enough in how we use words.
I think you have got it.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 16, 2009 - 12:07am PT
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Yo, Peace to you jstan....and have a super great time. I Be brain searching to put a good cause/correlary when you return. Have Fun and be Safe....but mostly HAVE FUN. Smiles, lynnie
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jstan
climber
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Oct 16, 2009 - 12:09am PT
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John I suspect Hammerstein was mostly interested in how the words rhymed.
Man's efforts to understand go back to the time we needed to know where the wildebeasts would be pasturing and when the big cats would be out there hunting them( and us). The individual who did not try to figure that out was a fool. A short lived/hungry one.
Now it is all we can do to set the clocks on our TiVo.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 16, 2009 - 12:18am PT
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OMG, I am becoming a jstan ......friend, consensus person. Largo, our life is large here due to dudes like jstan.
It all started at Camp 4. Yikes.....:DD lynnie
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jstan
climber
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Oct 16, 2009 - 12:22am PT
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I made that up about Anders. But it is a good line.
"Lynnie, I wouldn't do that were I you."
What Lynnie has to offer is more important.
Edit:
John:
Sorry. My reading comprehension is well below par.
Nevermind.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 16, 2009 - 12:37am PT
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"John I suspect Hammerstein was mostly interested in how the words rhymed."
No, Oscar was not bashing the hunt for knowledge, or "knowing," rather the compulsion to try and supply "answers" to situations and experiences for which they are innapropriate as a means of inquiry.
JL
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 16, 2009 - 01:02am PT
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We all know that Dr. F is too smart for his own good!
A Christian is just a sinner who knows where to get forgiveness and wants to tell other sinners they can too!
All the religions of the world would go on without their founders, but without Jesus there is no Christianity!
God gave us moral free will, so we can make good and bad choices! Evil is lack of good. God can't lie, He said He made the world and said it was good! But if God made us without free will, could we really love Him back, if we could only do good and not sin?
Look at you kid or yourself with your parents, you/they don't want them to fall down, but you can't be with them at all times, and can't always rescue them. Then look at climbing the dangers are great, but look at how wonderful climbing is, it makes you stronger, it's worth it!
Doctors cause pain, that helps us or try's to. At the bed of a dying child an atheist can only say that's the way it goes? They have doubts and objections, about God and faith!
God is all good and can't tolerate evil and sin, so he sent His Son Jesus, to take on the sin of the world. Or, God in order to get rid of sin, He would have to get rid of the sinner. God would rather die then live without you! God is a God of intention, His suffering was for are good, salvation, and hope. Jesus said I have overcome the world. I will never leave or forsake you, no pit is so deep that the love of God is not deeper!
God gets it, look what happened to Him at the hands of evil men! We don't have a God that doesn't understand what we are going through! Sometimes there are no fix's, but God is with us, this is just temporary, God is in control, evil won't defeat us, all things work together for good, that love the lord! In heaven there will be no more tears, death, and suffering.
Which road will you take? God's offer of mercy won't last forever, He doesn't want us to live with evil, pain and suffering, but wants us to come to faith! He is a God of LOVE!
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Oct 16, 2009 - 03:26am PT
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"The Catholic Church allows for belief in both cosmological and biological evolution. In both cases, Catholic dogma states that God put things in motion. "While the Church permits belief in either special [Biblical] creation or developmental [evolutionary] creation on certain questions, it in no circumstances permits belief in atheistic evolution." In other words, the Big Bang was caused by God, and that at some point man evolved to the point where God gave him an eternal soul."
"The Catholic Church is one branch of the Christian world that seems to allow a non-literal interpretation of the Bible."
Actually, a non-literal translation of scripture is allowed by a significant number of Christian sects and entities. Biblical fundementalists and many in the evangelical community insist on a strictly literal perception (of the bible) but many mainline protestants accept that some important doctrinal concepts may be written in metaphor.
Biblical literalists are often ignorant of the fact that the Torah was written in a Hebrew that had vocabulary of only a few hundred words. It had but two verb tenses (present perfect and imperfect). Concrete adjectives were used for abstract nouns. Conjuctions to connect or give relation to ideas were almost non-existent. Past action was given by the first in a series of verbs in the perfect tense followed by verbs in the imperfect. These devices, of syntax, were vague and resulted in ambiguity regarding time concepts.
Translating this ancient form of Hebrew into more precisely evolved language with many times the words, more categorial meanings and more flexible syntactic devices left much judgement to the translators.
The original Hebrew creation story (Genesis) does not actually say the world was created in six days. It uses the word yom which can mean several things including long indeterminate periods of time.
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MH2
climber
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Oct 16, 2009 - 03:52am PT
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Jennie, isn't there a Judaic rule of thumb: deed before creed?
A. J. Abrams calls the Bible, "a book to wrestle with".
He should know, after A Year of Living Biblically.
He seems to have quite a balanced view and a lot of firsthand experience to back it up. He said that a Jehovah's Witness came around to his house one day to tell him about the Bible. Three hours later the Witness started looking at his watch but A.J. was keen to continue. Very few people ever get to know the Bible from the inside out like Abrams.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 16, 2009 - 08:18am PT
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Regardless of translations, the two accounts of creation given in the Genesis book bear no resemblance to the evidence we can actually see of the beginnings of the universe or of the earth. The timelines can't be reconciled and the story is clearly an imaginary account by writers who were doing the best they could to get a grip on a complicated, puzzling, and dangerous world.
Plus, it was all cobbled together from scraps of older mythologies, then passed off as original and exclusive of the rest. That was a really clever marketing hook.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Oct 16, 2009 - 09:42am PT
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The more I think of it, the more I am absolutely astounded that educated people in the 21st century can actually believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. I am by nature an optimist, but the fact that there are so many in the United States that have ths view makes me very pessimistic about our long term prospects.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 16, 2009 - 10:15am PT
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An atheist is like a drop saying there is no ocean, a drop will dry up PDQ!
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Oct 16, 2009 - 10:16am PT
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Thanks at least for not posting yet another dopey biblical reference, Gobee.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 16, 2009 - 10:25am PT
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That's just the Angst of your Catholic upbringing talking, Grug! lol
Oh and congratulations, btw!
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Oct 16, 2009 - 10:55am PT
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Thanks, Jaybro. I couldn't be happier.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 16, 2009 - 11:08am PT
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Neanderthals and H. sapiens:
Go-
Sorry for the previous confusion.
As for neanderthals, the interpretation which is most common now is that they evolved directly from H. erectus in Europe only, becoming a unique population because they were cut off from contact with others by the glaciation of the ice age they lived through. Homo sapiens evolved in Africa from H. erectus or its immediate descendant, H. heidelbergensis or H. rhodensiensis which ever name is finally settled on. This happened about 190,000 years ago. Then about 50,000 years ago sapiens left Africa, heading first for the Middle East and then into Eurasia (currently Russia and the central Asian republics of Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kirghistan). They were hunters and followed the big game into the grasslands. After this they branched out to the northeast and southeast and eventually about 30,000 years ago entered Europe in the region around Poland. At that time, if not before in parts of Eurasia, they encountered neanderthals.
It certainly must have been a shock to both groups when they first saw each other but they continued to coexist until surprisingly modern times. Gradually the neanderthals were pushed westward and the last evidence we have of them is a cave in southern Spain near Gibralter which dates to only 27,000 years ago. A similar coexistence must have existed in east Asia as well, between the descendants of H. erects in China and the H. sapiens who moved in later. Meanwhile we get intriguing tales from Indonesia that there were "little people" (H. floresiensis ? ) living up on the cliffs in the mountains as recently as 150 years ago.
Jean Auel has written a series of books about the H. neanderthal-H. sapiens encounter, including Clan of the Cave Bear, Valley of the Horses, the Mammoth hunters, Plains of Passage, The Shelters of Stone. I always tell my freshmen students that they could have written those books with the information in our textbook and become millionaires too, but it was Auel's genius to perceive that the public would actually be that interested in prehistoric life.
Neanderthals, Sapiens, and Yeti stories:
Meanwhile, it doesn't take much imagination from anyone to suspect that the stories of yeti could well have emerged from these encounters and been preserved down to the present day in certain areas of the world. Sasquatch is more likely to have come from the more recent encounters of Native Americans and Ainu from Siberia or even northern Japan who wandered into the New World. Kennewick Man found in Oregon is non Native American and dates to only 11,000 years ago. The Ainu have sometimes been classed as Causcasian as they have light skin, unfolded eyes, and a lot of body hair.
Personally, I would be very surprised if any undiscovered primates are found in Asia although there are some intriguing stories from remote areas of Bhutan and Assam in north eastern India where the terrain is tropical enough and the jungle dense enough to support a type of ape. What I don't believe is apes living at 12,000 feet and above in the Himalaya. I'm with Reinhold Messner in believing that the physical yeti are in fact nocturnal bears which have become interwoven with stories of scary apes from the past and the Tibetan legend of the human race being founded by the mating of a monkey and a demoness. The valley of Rolwaling, due west of Everest, which I have studied for 35 years now, has many stories of yeti sightings by very credible people. When Hillary visited there searching for the yeti in the 1950's, he was sold a yeti skin which turned out to be that of a Himalayan blue bear.
The most gripping yeti story however, involves a good Sherpa friend of mine who was awakened in the night by something ripping boards off his roof trying to get into the house. His family began praying and banging on pots and pans and lighting butter lamps (no electricity and no flash lights). They noticed a foul odor in the process. Whatever it was, it then broke into a small barn and a terrific struggle broke out between their Tibetan ox and the unknown beast. The ox was killed and drug over a 3 foot stone wall and about a quarter of a mile down the path, where it had its stomach ripped open and internal organs eaten before being abandoned. The elongated footprints left behind were not exactly human but there were no obvious claw marks either, lending credence to Messner's idea that Tibetan bears place the back feet into the tracks of the front feet, giving the appearance of upright walking and human-like feet.
Nowadays it has been several years since a yeti has been spotted and I personally believe this is the result of the Chinese army and Tibetan hunters pretty much eliminating them on the heavily patrolled Tibetan side of the border so that they no longer cross over to Nepal as they used to.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 16, 2009 - 12:38pm PT
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Jan - thanks, as always, for the history lesson! Fascinating stuff! Sounds like I had the story about right, except that it was the Sapiens who came from Heidelbergensis/Rhodesiensus, and Neanderthals who came from Erectus, rather than the other way around. But the same lesson remains.
I haven't read any of the Clan of the Cave Bear books, though I did see and enjoy Quest for Fire. So you think either of these is a reasonable interpretation of what is known? Sounds like the books might be an enjoyable read. I think when I was younger I was turned off by the marketing for girls the books had, but I'm sure I can get beyond that.
Interesting stories and theories about Yetis etc!
So much of human nature seems to center around "us and them" - even right here in this thread (who is a Christian and who isn't, do you have faith or don't you, can you think critically or not, etc). Of course this isn't hard to explain from our simple familial/tribal roots. But I wonder if maybe it has a harder edge due to our multiple run-ins with the "other like us".
I wonder if you could find populations in Africa that haven't had run-ins like this since the demise of African H. Erectus, 400,000 years ago - if you could see any differences in the *way* they do the us-and-them thing. Certainly war is not a European human construct - it seems universal. Hell, even chimps do it! But perhaps the Africans have a different take on it. Better? Worse? Dunno, but perhaps there's something to be learned.
I mean, it's this constant desire to discern whether you're an "us" or a "them" that seems to most get in the way of humanity's ability to work for good.
GO
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 16, 2009 - 04:14pm PT
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Life in general pretty much sucked back then too, so the nifty idea that the more they suffered, the more they would get after they died was a lot more persuasive.
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MH2
climber
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Oct 16, 2009 - 04:21pm PT
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Thanks Jan!
Is it possible to map anywhere near the complete genome from any ancient non-human DNA bits?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 16, 2009 - 04:41pm PT
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MH2-
So far the oldest DNA that has been tested is Neanderthal at about 30,000 years. They have enough fossil fragments to do the whole genome if they wanted, but that isn't necessary. Testing the genes we know are most likely to mutate and comparing them is sufficient and is what modern DNA testing services do.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 16, 2009 - 07:26pm PT
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Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 16, 2009 - 07:34pm PT
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I thought the bun was the lowest form of wheat.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 16, 2009 - 07:37pm PT
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Faith in, and the parroting of, the words of others is the highest form of vacuousness.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 16, 2009 - 07:43pm PT
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I like Wes even if he thinks lynnie is misguided. Zokay, we still be freunden, Ja Wes? :D
Just got back again from out of town, well actually still out of town but back at computer access. Peace, lynne
Will read Thread later this evening to see just what's happenin'.
Hearts to all and remember, Life, you only have the moment you are living. Tomorrow not a guarentee. I was just reminded again today.
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 16, 2009 - 07:45pm PT
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"Life, you only have the moment you are living. Tomorrow not a guarentee. I was just reminded again today."
Hear you, Friend. Peace to you and yours.
Malone
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 16, 2009 - 07:52pm PT
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Thank you Malone, you know......wish it would resonate with others. Lynne
We are created, we live, ( and none of us know the number of our days ) we die. Are we really ready for the last moment ? Really, are we? Lynne
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 16, 2009 - 08:43pm PT
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The Bible is the fairytale of uneducated people complete with incest, infanticide, and murder... all ordered by God himself. Vague, misguided attempts at moral guidance from a time when awareness of the world was limited to an area smaller than United States.
God blessed us all reason... and THIS is what you choose?
------
The problem is that the "Bible" is a vastly cobbled work, and while "fairytale" and "uneducated" might pertain to literal bastardizations of ancient biblical allegories and metaphors (Jonah, Tower of Babel, etc.), to apply that same charge to the Song of Songs or The Beatitudes/Sermon on the Mount (to mention a few), is to foolishly dismiss some illuminated material IMO.
JL
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Oct 16, 2009 - 10:21pm PT
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Jan, thanks for the science lesson, it was a fascinating read. I loved the Jean Aul books, they were a cool account of how life could have been back in time. The hot sex and intrigue made them even more appealing.
Back to the discussion heathens. God bless you all.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 16, 2009 - 10:26pm PT
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I quite enjoy learning more about fossils and human origins and such. Thank you for the lessons!
Much of the Clan of the Cave Bear was filmed in Cathedral Provincial Park, about 200 km east of Vancouver. I've never seen it - although I like reading about history, including historical fiction, I've never developed much of a taste for Auel's fur-bodice rippers.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 16, 2009 - 10:57pm PT
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There are no problems except for all the closed minded stuck in the mud people here, everywhere.
Those minds are filled to the brim overflowing. There's no more room in the buffer.
Dead dead dead minds ............
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MH2
climber
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Oct 17, 2009 - 12:31am PT
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MH2-
So far the oldest DNA that has been tested is Neanderthal at about 30,000 years. They have enough fossil fragments to do the whole genome if they wanted, but that isn't necessary if you test the genes we know are most likely to mutate and compare them which is what modern DNA testing services do.
Thanks again, Jan.
I'm surprised to hear that.
It isn't the comparison-for-dating purposes I was thinking about, it was whether we ever get to the point where we can take the genome information and deduce aspects of the anatomy, like the central nervous system.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 17, 2009 - 12:50am PT
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I'm a fossil!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 17, 2009 - 01:03am PT
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John Long,
Few read or appreciate Song of Songs. A great read with a wealth of meaning when one takes the time to embrace oneself in the rich text. Song of Songs contains the wisdom and knowledge to change/shape a heart, life and relationship with God and another human..... with love.
Thanks for the mention. Joy and Peace, lynne
Edit: the sermon on the mount and the beatitudes ..... this is life, the words make life, I have chosen to make them my life the past 22 months. The words challenge an individual to step up and live the words.
Simple, Profound, with the ability not only to change a life but a world....if worked out in the lives of individuals, communities, nations.
Just my take.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 17, 2009 - 03:44am PT
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Lynne-
What always makes me sad, is that so many people will never see the beauty and transformational potential of all great scripture, Christian and otherwise, because they get so hung up on history. They choose to focus instead, on the worst examples of what has happened in the past in the name of religion, instead of the universal spiritual message of peace and service.
Locker-
The laughing Jesus. Perfect antidote!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 17, 2009 - 03:55am PT
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Mtnmun and Mighty Hiker-
I have only read Clan of the Cave Bear and there were no steamy sex scenes in that. No doubt their presence helps explain the phenomenal success of the series. And here I naively thought that the public was really that into prehistory!
MH2-
Our science is no where near doing with DNA what you suggest. It may happen in the future, but maybe not, since Neanderthal was a dead end.
Gobee-
We're all potential fossils, both physical and mental! My own frontal lobes show "early shrinkage" due to prolonged exposure to altitude. To ensure success as a physical fossil though, drinking water with lots of flouride is the best bet.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 17, 2009 - 11:24am PT
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 17, 2009 - 12:17pm PT
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Do the math!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 17, 2009 - 12:39pm PT
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It would depend on which side of the tracks the cloning took place...
He would be a new born baby!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 17, 2009 - 12:40pm PT
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obviuosly it wouldn't know anything about living as a Neandertal, like culture or language Perhaps the Neanderthal can live in Camp 4 for a while. That may help.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 17, 2009 - 12:52pm PT
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We don't know that. Neanderthal did have larger brains that homo saps do...
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 17, 2009 - 01:02pm PT
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"Its IQ would be lower than a humans, so It probably be more susceptable to falling in with crazy religious cults, and believing in fanasties like Jebus or Santa"
Scarecrow: But some people without brains do an awful lot of talking don't they?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 17, 2009 - 01:03pm PT
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maybe Neanderthals feel into a deep existential funk, lost interest in procreating because of the futility of Homo neanderthalensis' place in a universe bereft of meaning and absent of higher purpose. I can see them watching the silly Homo sapiens engage in ecstatic religious acts completely irrational in their beliefs, which gave them hope, as a species, to get them through grindingly depressing natural setbacks.
Who knew this irrational hope would be an evolutionary positive trait that would help ensure the survival of H. sapiens while the deeply intellectual H. neanderthalensis would extinct itself by thinking too much...
...how's that for an anthropological fantasy...
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 17, 2009 - 01:23pm PT
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There is a whole world of fascinating conjecture about Neanderthals;
1) It has been said that the Basque language has no classic indo-European roots. One theory ( I have no idea of the facts to support it) is that it is descended from the Neanderthal oral language.
2) Some book I read in the '90's about "flatheads" hypothosized that they interbred into the h. sap popu;ations, but that there are individuals arounds that manifest a number of traits from the Nean gene pool; high foreheads, arching eybrows and some other things. Think Jean Claude Vandamme, Max Von Sydow, or my paternal grandfather from Sweden, John Anderson.
But back to the Jesus height issue:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUiUmXkr-Co
The song is clever, The Video is not Zomgits' best work but has it's moments.
edit, Gobee, hoh yeah!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 17, 2009 - 02:10pm PT
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Interesting that this crowd is more inspired by speculating about Neanderthal than the Yeti. I wonder what that means? It seems like both would fit well into the Camp 4 lifestyle.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 17, 2009 - 02:16pm PT
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I've always been fascinated by stories of the abominable snowman, but I never have seen one, Yeti.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 17, 2009 - 02:56pm PT
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I shouldn't do this, but it's soo, easy,....
(Fortunarely I already live in hell, And heaven...)
by that criteria, Howeird, why would anyone, believe in god?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 17, 2009 - 03:27pm PT
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Where would we be if bigfoot, Sasquatch, and the AB were literate? Maybe they have a language they don't deign to share with us?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 17, 2009 - 03:29pm PT
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"What always makes me sad, is that so many people will never see the beauty and transformational potential of all great scripture, Christian and otherwise, because they get so hung up on history."
My sense of this is that the most limiting factor is that people so rarely get past their evaluating minds, that part of that always wants to qantify, measure, dissect, and so forth. Insofar that you have no separation form that aspect of mind, you can't seem the limitations, nor yet the compulsion to try and knead all that is experienced into manageable "things" that, in turn, can be evaluated, measured, dissected. This is "knowing" to most people.
On the other hand we have Song of Songs, the Beatitudes and Sermon on the Mount, and we have amongst us those who can never get past trying to measure and evaluate these as they do other "things" in the hopes of discovering the truth or the meaning. Moreover, it rarely occurs to these people that said truth is something beyond a subjective amalgam, a feeling, a mood.
JL
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 17, 2009 - 03:34pm PT
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That stuff is in a different category. Beautiful poetery, as i've always insisted. My beef is why people need to take biblical allegoreis as geologic/historic time, etc.
And Howeird, "apes"? are you presuming to know the nature of Sasquatch? I bet you've never met Paganmonkeyboy....
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 17, 2009 - 04:17pm PT
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And you've seen them not having any?
Neandrathals lived in similar places with limited technology.
There is a lot of conjecture that they 'must' be primates ( they used to say that about bears, too). The only commmon link from people who have claimed to see them is that they are hairy and bipedal. Hence, since we tend to anthropomorphize almost anything, (like the construct of 'God') they must be primates, or as you say, "Apes".
I don't think that's very strong evidence, do you? Not that you nor I are apt to prove either way, but i think a more open view is needed (if we are going to consider them at all) than to shoehorn them into one of the existing categories,just to make it easy on ourselves.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 17, 2009 - 04:30pm PT
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Could be, who knows?
Don't they pretty much have to be mammals though, what else has fur?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 17, 2009 - 04:48pm PT
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Either there is a God or there isn't! If there isn't, then the people say what is right or wrong, and put the offenders in prison. But not all are caught or serve any or all of there time. No need to swear to tell the truth, the whole truth so help you God! What justice is this? None, fear of jail, what a joke! Anarchy!
If there is a God, we are all guilty, and there is complete forgiveness through Jesus only!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 17, 2009 - 04:52pm PT
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But if there isn't, then we're not, and there's no need to get all worked up about it.
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Oct 17, 2009 - 04:53pm PT
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You realize followers of Christ aren't the only ones who believe in creation.
I have to agree that there are groups that make a campaign for orbiting so much around the 'ism of creation. I would like to add a couple of thoughts to
the conversation.
First, the shortness of time regarding creation to present. With regard to eternity, any mark you make on a time line, six thousand, six million, six billion, six trillion, all shrink to a speck on a line that in infinite (remove time, as we know it from the equation). It seems that the discussion of fossils and evolution usually has a "so there!" quality to it. When, many, many scientists actually believe, if not in the God of the Bible, a Creator. Please respect this. Just reacting is really expressing a lack of thinking.
Second, the point of the Genesis account. The point is not to give a detailed account of the process of the creation of all things. It's just not.
God was quickly getting to a point. If the point was to tell the mysteries of the creation, we poor Bible toters would not be able to drive our cars to church with the thing sitting on the front seat.
The point is: redemption. It's that God made everything, people were given free will, people were given a circumstance that would allow them to actually make a choice. The temptation was "... you will be like God ..."
We proved ourselves to just shuck off God when given only one choice. Some people call this "original sin", but that term is not in the New or Old Testament. We do have a free will, we do have the daily opportunity to choose. We can't redeem any of it with our own actions: Good deeds, good Karma, nothing will offset the results of our actions. We need forgiveness.
That is the point of the Genesis account, and the first point of the promise of the Redeemer. Jews, Christians, Hindus, Muslims all believe in creation.
Following Christ is not about self-improvement, self-enlightenment, self-anything. It's about losing yourself ("He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it ..."). What does this even mean?
I don't think it means taking on every cause or controversy we don't agree with. You're right in an important way, as I see it. I read a great book a couple of months ago, I would recommend: "The Myth of a Christian Nation".
It's a wake-up call for Christians who are walking in the direction of merging politics into their walk with God. I am of the belief this is not
how we're supposed to be directing our efforts. There are too many hospitals full of sick people who need love and attention. There are people in daily life that don't need to argue about all the 'isms. They need to see the face of God's lovingkindness. I don't believe in watering down the Bible. Forgiveness isn't "just letting go" of something. It is much, much bigger. I do care about the findings, I think they are part of the miracle.
According to Genesis, something happened before the appearing of man. Something cataclysmic. The answers to that long q.a. simply don't offer redemption. Does this mean no God? pffft. I don't think God objects to us
trying to find the answers. Because, when man seeks these answers with humility, they do find God. None of us were born believers. There was a time I did not. I didn't drink any Kool Aid or have someone shove it down
my mind either. God is real. It's probably the reason people struggle so darned hard to disprove this. Otherwise, who would even care? But, people
know they have to make a choice. Isn't that amazing? (C.S. Lewis wrote another good read: Mere Christianity)
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Oct 17, 2009 - 04:58pm PT
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Top Ten Reasons God Won't Get Tenure
1. Only published one book.
2. It was in Hebrew.
3. There is doubt He wrote it Himself.
4. When one experiment went awry, He tried to cover it up by drowning all the subjects.
5. When sample subjects do not behave as predicted, He deletes the whole sample
6. He rarely comes to class-just tells His students to read the Book.
7. It is rumored that He sometimes lets His Son teach the class.
8. Although He only has 10 requirements, His students often fail His tests.
9. He expelled His first two students for learning.
10. His office hours are infrequent and usually held on a mountain top.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 17, 2009 - 05:06pm PT
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Peter unfortunately leaves out two reasons why God may get tenure.
1. Its citation index is very high.
2. It has unparalleled ability to get grants and raise funds .
Here, however, we have such a very long list of living gods we may have to give up monotheism.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 17, 2009 - 05:07pm PT
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Even our thoughts can be evil to God, shall I go on...
God's standards are not are own, NO ONE can keep the whole law at all times!(see Bible)
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 17, 2009 - 05:09pm PT
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"What justice is this? None, fear of jail, what a joke! Anarchy!"
No, Gob, we have a responsiblity to be good! We have to do this ourselves without help from god, that's the beauty of it!
Howierd, my point with this is that if there is any thing to this talk or unknown bipedal whatevers, that continually elude us, as they seem to do, we're going to have to think differently to find them. Though we need to start from what we know, like; they probably breath air, and if they are furry, they are probably related, at least, to mammals. Beyond that we might want to keep an open mind.
In my own old field of paleontology there would have been a lot of roadblocks, if Formanifea studiers had first found Conodonts, diatom, or say ostracods, and assumed that they must be sarcodines (Amoeba) because thats what the disoverers were familiar with.
i'm not really going to hold my breath about mystery bipedal, pongoids hominoids, though I'll always notice what comes up. I just think that the approach I mentione is a metaphor for other things, well, anything short of liebacking an offwidth...
I used to really follow this unknown animal stuff when i was a pre/teen. There are some writings by Roy chapman Andrews about this that used to move me a lot.
Funny that you mentioned breasts, ( guess we're wired that way) as a kid, I remember reading an acoount of an encounter with an 'Orang Pendak', an alleged unknown homonid in somewhere like Java or Sumatra. ~"The females had log pendulous breast, that when statled they would throw over their shoulders, before running away." I think that that was in the book , "On the track of unknown Animals" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Track_of_Unknown_Animals
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Oct 17, 2009 - 05:12pm PT
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Howwierd, I really love your brave, thinking mind. I mean this whole-heartedly. I am in real (I don't even know how to find the words)... in tremendous respect, for anyone, anyone who will ask the hard questions. Awesome!!
I was talking with my son about this. He was a serious atheist (he is now a believer, I had nothing to do with it). I told him,
(this was just a couple of nights ago) he was fearless enough, honest enough, to ask them.
I have just too much respect to fire off a rote answer, if not answer, with respect, a response or offering to you.
Sorry I dropped out of the picture there, too. I went up to the FaceLift and the Bachar thing in Yosemite. Also been going to school and working full time. (sorry if it sounds like an excuse). I want to really think about what you are asking today. You are a courageous question-asker.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 17, 2009 - 05:22pm PT
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"No, Gob, we have a responsiblity to be good! We have to do this ourselves without help from god, that's the beauty of it!"
If someone steals your stuff, or kills your wife, son, or daughter what do you say?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 17, 2009 - 05:33pm PT
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I think you get it Gobee!
I have to be part of the system to deal with those possibilities. My daughter is too important to leave to ephemeral superstitous nonsense.
Thank you.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 17, 2009 - 05:43pm PT
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Hi All :D
Back home and getting ready to hit road yet again in the next hour. Just wanted to see what's happening on this fun, thought provoking Thread.
Jaybro, you said Song of Songs and Sermon on the Mount beautiful poetry. Song of Songs may be, but Sermon on the Mt. to me is totally about how to live life here on this planet in harmony with God, humankind and yourself.
Largo, could you please be more definitive in your post of 10/17 at 1:29, especially the last paragraph. I can't figure out what you are saying and I want to understand what you are saying. I would appreciate it. Only way to learn.....
Peace all, lynne
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 17, 2009 - 05:46pm PT
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Lynne, much of the best poetry is about stuff like that. that does not diminish it's importance or authentiticity.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 17, 2009 - 05:47pm PT
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My answer would be what Jesus and Stephen said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do!"
Why, because God first forgave us, and calls us to do the same! We have the blessed hope! And we will be with each other in Heaven!
Then we can live for God and try to do the right thing, knowing when we fail we are still forgiven, DO IT FOR LOVE!
Edit; Trust in God! God is the final judge!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 17, 2009 - 05:48pm PT
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Thanks, Jaybro.....That makes sense. :D
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 17, 2009 - 06:09pm PT
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"You STILL have not told me as to precisely what it is that I am being forgiven for."
Let me get my hard hat on, cus I guess you can start throwing stones?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 17, 2009 - 06:10pm PT
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I know someone who lurks here, and very occasionally posts, who firmly believes that there are sasquatches living in the forests not far from Vancouver. His moniker on YouTube is "trailriderresearch" (= Canadian Sasquatch Tracker), and he's posted several videos about his search. http://www.youtube.com/user/trailriderresearch
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 17, 2009 - 06:20pm PT
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So, Anders, did Sasqutch start drum circles. Are Sasquitchi a tribe of old hippies?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 17, 2009 - 06:21pm PT
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Jesus makes it possible to approach God, and live without fear with joy and thanksgiving!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 17, 2009 - 06:26pm PT
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Well, "Sasquatch" and "Squamish" are phonetically somewhat similar...
If there is a god, why isn't she smiting drum circles? (Edit) Indeed, why hasn't she already smitten them?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 17, 2009 - 07:01pm PT
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Rather then say how could God be like that, you should be grateful that He gave us a way out through Jesus?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 17, 2009 - 07:14pm PT
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Here we go
If God controls the land and disease
Keeps a watchful eye on me
If he's really so damn mighty
Well my problem is I can't see
Well who would want to be
Who would want to be such a control freak?
Well who would want to be
Who would want to be such a control freak?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xr_B2IOUYSw
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Oct 17, 2009 - 07:29pm PT
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Hey Howweird,
I'm wondering what I said that was patently idealistic.
I don't consider myself "religious". I don't practice a religion or a religious belief. I have a living relationship with God through Christ that is as real as any I have with any person, more so, in fact.
Look, we all live and breathe by faith. (I'm going to get to those questions of yours a little later). I have a relationship with you, Howweird, by faith.
For all I know, it could be some code generated by something other than you, but I choose to believe you're typing communication on your own keyboard, with you own fingers.
In the Genesis account, in question, God made provision for this separation from Him.
Snuffing His son? We did that. You should read it yourself. Jesus was revealing the Kindom of God to us. By the way, everyone was bummed at Him because He said it wasn't of this world. The more we understand about science and things on an atomic level, the more apparent it becomes there is something very fundamental we do not know.
First of all, they grab Him while He's away in a garden praying. The RELIGIOUS leaders punch Him on the face, take turns, complain when Pilate says hey, you guys can release one of your own. The RELIGIOUS guys say, "Hey, we can't commit capitol punishment, you gotta do it, plus, we can't even be handling this because we want to be clean so we can eat passover".
Sound like religious practitioners today?
Pilate tells him, hey guy, are you a king? Cause if you say you are, Caesar has some serious issues with you Jew guy. Jesus says, you say I am, and I am, but my Kingdom is not of this world. Pilate says for him to stop
screwing around with him because Jesus should realize he has the power to let Him live or die. Jesus says, no one takes my life, I give it willingly.
All this discussion of fossils and bones and such has nothing to do with the fact we're going to die. H1N1? Falling? Car accident? It's appointed unto us all to die once.
You're asking about wrong thoughts, etc. Consider the ten commandments:
have you ever lied? disrespected your parents? Taken God's name in vain? Desired something that belongs to your neighbor (this would include freeway or road lane)? Once?
The question is if God is perfect. It is we who separate ourselves from Him. Jesus wasn't a guy. Pilate didn't know who he was talking to.
You were talking about the Sermon on the Mount earlier (maybe not you, but someone). Forgive sins?????? What an arrogant idiot? How could Jesus forgive anyone? No, you don't have to ask for forgiveness for me to forgive you. I do it because I have been forgiven. For God to forgive the things that separate me or you from Him, that is the issue.
We do these things willingly, deliberately. Pride is the thing throughout both the Old and New Testament that is the issue. Forgive myself? Do I have the power on an eternal level to forgive myself? Hmmm, I can forget about things I have done, but I can't change, or redeem anything I have done. It's there.
My son, Jordan, the one that was an atheist, says one problem atheists have is that Christians treat them like no one can be a nice, giving, kind, loving person except for Christians. He's right. I have met some amazing, loving people who don't believe in God. I was one of them. So was he.
It doesn't have to do with whether you and I are nice. Jesus didn't come to make bad men good, he came to make dead men live. It is because of this, we love Him you, we do what he asked. We mindlessly obey his command.
By the way, this Jesus, who if I decide to follow has all these rules, right? "A new commandment I give to you, love one another".
It's not something I can do for you, I can only say, God is absolutely real. Not in a fairytale, a-bunch-of-guys-made-this-up way. Yes, there are kooks on T.V., but it's not my place to judge them either.
Why did God snuff out His own Son?
God knew from the beginning what this whole thing making people was going to turn out to be. It's not about whether I want to believe in God or follow God, or know God. It is that He loves me. That He knows me, wants to love me, you all of us. He gives us a choice. Some say no. Some say yes.
Is it fair that only good people get to know Him? What about the people who mess up and want to anyway?
So God says, I love them, I, myself, will redeem them. He promises all throughout the Old Testament He's going to come, make the way Himself. Jesus wasn't a guy. He was God reconciling the world unto Himself. Jesus didn't stay dead. This was God making the way, for us to be in relationship with Him regardless of what stupid things we have done. Whether it was one or one million things we have done.
Karma is just a way of making you think you have a chance to work this out yourself. That's doing it our way. God has asked us to do only one thing, just like in the garden. Instead of a don't, it's a do: receive His gift, His Son. Have an amazing real, actual relationship with Him. He's waiting.
For all of us. He came to give us life abundantly.
The Living God does not ask you to join some church, group, whatever. He doesn't charge you anything. It is a gift, not a 'secret'. He just came knocking at my door. No one was preaching at me. I knew, like I know my own hands and feet. I knew I had to make a decision. I did.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 17, 2009 - 07:33pm PT
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HWD, I don't know all the sins against God I have done, and I don't want to know! I'm glad He forgives me! But, "HE IS A HOLY GOD!"
I don't know you to say what yours are, but you don't answers to me anyway!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 17, 2009 - 08:07pm PT
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Thanks Frosty!
HWD,
Are you reading the other posts, because we answered your question.
There is only one God, in three persons, Jesus IS God!
The Jewish people got the law from Moses by God. God said that it took blood to atone for sin, once a year.
Jesus did it once and for all, and that He was the WAY TO FORGIVENESS!
Edit; Even after you believe we still sin but ask forgiveness still,
but He knows your heart, you can't cheat God.
If you turn away from Him completely, did you really believe?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 17, 2009 - 08:07pm PT
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The ancient pagans waited to be baptized until they were on their deathbeds, knowing that the act of baptism would wash away all their preceding 'sins' from throughout their lives. Great system, as long as you don't die unexpectedly.
Some Muslims consider Christians to be polytheists, in that they believe in a papa bear, a son bear, and a spirit bear. Not to mention a mother bear, saint bears, angel bears and a bunch of others - all derived from pre-Christian beliefs.
The Christian god is undoubtedly an anthropomorphic creation of a syncretist religion. If she actually showed up and started behaving as alleged, she'd be locked up in a maximum security institution for the insane in an instant. The preaching about peace and siblingly love and so on is fine, the practice is something else entirely.
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Oct 17, 2009 - 08:08pm PT
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What you have or have not done, is between you and your Heavenly Father.
That is not anyone's business. As far as the holidays you mention, they are part of Roman Catholicism. That was man's answer to trying to control the population. We kind of have that going on with the so-called religious right.
There were no holidays.
Your research is incorrect about the Bible being a conglomeration of other religious thought. This other religious thought has mostly to do with either no god or many/hundreds/thousands of gods. The One God is why every one was so over the Jews. They wouldn't conform to the poly-theistic system. This was, over and over, not the gods they knew.
A relationship with one, loving God is only found with Him. You're going to have to support your statement.
But, you certainly do not have to receive His free gift. You simply don't.
You can say no. Or yes. Up to you. Man doesn't get to make the rules. Man is breaking his head on the rules. Whether I, you, like it or not, we're here because He put us here. I'm ok with Him having it His way. What is His way? Love one another, even as I have loved you. It's not fall on your face several times a day, it's not take some inner ever spiraling journey and still not know how you will spend eternity. He explains it. We can say yes or no. You close the deal yourself.
Are you saying you have never done anything? Are you saying you have lived a perfect life? Are you saying you know what will happen to you when you die?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 17, 2009 - 08:34pm PT
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HWD/LOL!
Edit; 2 Corinthians 5:21, For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
1 Peter 2:24, He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 17, 2009 - 08:41pm PT
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Christianity and Judaism were based on Persian and Egyptian monotheism, along with aspects of other early Middle-Eastern death-and-resurrection fertility cults. This is beyond dispute. The Bible is a heavily edited collection of repurposed myths and legends. Just like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, or Nessie and the Yeti. None of them can be disproved to a true believer, but it's proof of their actual existence that is at issue.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 17, 2009 - 09:43pm PT
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 17, 2009 - 09:44pm PT
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I don't know about the Persian cannon, but I don't think the Egyptian deal is in anyway monotheistic. Granted Christian iconography takes from everybody; ie Xmas from the pagans......
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 17, 2009 - 10:12pm PT
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The origin and rise of the concept of monotheism in ancient Egypt is well documented. It only served as a state religion under Ankenaten, but the idea was already around by the time of Moses, who seems to have borrowed a lot of his lawgiving action from established Egyptian precedents.
The Persian Zoroastrians worshiped Ahura Mazda as an exclusive creative deity; there are still Zoroastrian sects today in parts of the ME. Judaism. Christianity, and Islam are rooted in these precursors, as filtered through the tumultuous geopolitics of the region during the few thousand years before (and a few centuries after) Christ.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 17, 2009 - 10:15pm PT
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Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein
Quoting irrelevant scripture over and over again as an answer to all questions
gets eeriely close to this, it seems to me.
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Bad Climber
climber
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Oct 17, 2009 - 10:29pm PT
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So right, Howweird! When my students write argumentative papers, I say that they can only use the Bible to appeal to that particular group that might be swayed by such bs. The rest of us are going to require something a bit more substantial--like evidence.
God bless atheism.
BAd
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 17, 2009 - 10:34pm PT
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Thanks, Cintune. Now I have a starting point on something I didn't really know about.
Where do Gnostics fit in?
I have climbed Zoroaster temple.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 17, 2009 - 10:42pm PT
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Lynn wrote: "Largo, could you please be more definitive in your post of 10/17 at 1:29, especially the last paragraph. I can't figure out what you are saying and I want to understand what you are saying. I would appreciate it. Only way to learn.....
Peace all, lynne"
I had written earlier: "On the other hand we have Song of Songs, the Beatitudes and Sermon on the Mount, and we have amongst us those who can never get past trying to measure and evaluate these as they do other "things" in the hopes of discovering the truth or the meaning. Moreover, it rarely occurs to these people that said truth is something beyond a subjective amalgam, a feeling, a mood."
People generally understand only one kind of "knowing," and it has to do with breaking something down to measurable components, or looking at "things" and deriving laws about their relationships, or the forces that influence said things. Or, they might simply amass facts and figures in the hopes of being able to control or predict processes, or to a lesser degree, "explain" why the sun rises or why cells split or why the chicken crossed the road. Generally, if you have enough information that you can predict how things will behave under certain circumstances, and can replicate this process in a linear causal chain, it is said that you "know" your subject, or that you know and understand something about it, at any rate.
This knowing is almost always based on linear causation- such as A leads to B leads to C etc. This also usually assumes that so-called "higher" functions derive from more fundamental functions that are said to "create" the higher, or put differently, the higher derives from the lower. Such as - the evolved, material brain creates thought and feeling, or, atomic electro chemical activity in the brain "creates" consciousness, and so forth.
Also wound into this thought structure is the belief that only the lower, fundamental functions are "objectively" real facts, whereas the higher functions or "states" are believed to be "subjective" feelings/sensations/ideas, etc. Most people have no experience of the "objective" (constant and predictible) aspect of the so-called subjective, and would consider the very idea of such as being hogwash and a contradiction (like black light, cool fire, and so forth.
This is the great misconception about spirituality - that the meat of it is purely subjective, man made and brain generated, and that if you "know" otherwise, that knowing is either based on a belief or a subjective "state."
JL
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MH2
climber
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Oct 17, 2009 - 10:51pm PT
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Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein
could describe my climbing career
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 17, 2009 - 11:28pm PT
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But, I thought DMT, And Howeird, were my sister?.....
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 17, 2009 - 11:31pm PT
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One of Locker's best ever posts. Lots of substance.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Oct 17, 2009 - 11:32pm PT
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"Religions are all alike – founded upon fables and mythologies." [Thomas Jefferson]
but...what else did he say. Context, baby.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Oct 17, 2009 - 11:41pm PT
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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility to every form of tyranny over the mind of man. That is why the clergy oppose me."
Jefferson quote.
He knew that religion could kill a State....
I think a lot of you really hate religion for the wrong reasons and misinterpret what it is and how people embrace it.
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MH2
climber
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Oct 17, 2009 - 11:42pm PT
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Please don't anyone clone a neanderthal just for curiosity. That would be immoral.
One day a supercomputer might recapitulate ontogeny from DNA. But start on something simple like a Republican. Kidding.
Largo, please give us reductionists a break. It was you who was into analyzing anchor set-ups after all. We may not ever "know" but we can surely figure stuff out.
A pretty good way to quiet the analytical homunculi is music. Some nice words on themes touched on in this thread from Sonny Rollins at
http://www.cbc.ca/q/uncut.html
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 18, 2009 - 12:49am PT
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Jaybro-
Your comments were the first I've heard concerning Neanderthal speech links to the Basques. Sounds like a Spanish or French joke aimed at them to me. While it's true that Basque is a linguistic isolate, there are others on the planet such as the Ainu and Bushmen languages.
These remnant languages and populations are normally very ancient. In the case of the Basque it has been hypothesized by linguists anyway, that their language might be related to the Etruscans who were wiped out by the Romans.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 18, 2009 - 01:05am PT
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Christians and Anti Christians-
What strikes me about this whole debate is how western and how specifically American it is. All of you would feel much differently about the topic if you had lived in non Christian countries for 30 years as I have. Truly it is refreshing to live in countries that never saw crusades, inquisitions, pogroms, wars of religion and witch burnings in the name of "truth". It gives a whole different perspective. Not many people care how strange or irrational someone's beliefs are if they are not supported by political power and missionary zeal.
Likewise, Christians really have to rethink their belief set when presenting it to a totally different culture who've never heard it before but have their own older traditions and scriptures which are equally profound. At the least, every Christian has to ask how people with the wrong set of beliefs can behave so much better on average than those with the "correct" beliefs.
In any case, the fight does not seem to be about God but always about who was "His" messenger, prophet, son, savior, guru etc. Perhaps the lesson here is to focus more on God / Universal Consciousness, and less on individual messengers and the battles of the past?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 18, 2009 - 01:18am PT
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DNA analysis of current and past Basques, and their neighbours, might reveal interesting things about their origins.
Jan, have you encountered anyone in your travels in east and south Asia who refers to Europeans as "Feringhi", or something of that sort?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 18, 2009 - 01:34am PT
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so JL, how do you prove your assertion true without interpreting a subjective reality?
what is it about your truth that is, in fact, truth? how does it help understand other truths?
why do you demote the subjective to something undesirable and not quite as good as objective reality? or as good as your truth?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 18, 2009 - 01:39am PT
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Come on Largo, what are you getting at?
Is there a God or not,
-
Problem is that you want to "figure God out," meaning you want to "know" according to what I said earlier: break "God" down to bits you can evaluate and measure and ultimately be able to predict and replicate in a lab. This kind of knowing is invaluable in wrangling things. But God is no-thing.
The idea of "getting at" something is just that - getting at some THING our minds can squeeze for facts and figures. You don't realize that basically, you're demanding that God be a thing, like a thought or a laptop or a kermantle rope, and when God does not conform accordingly, you cry fowl and yell bullsh#t, not knowing that the approach is wrong.
Virtually any tradition will tell you that you have to use another aspect of that brain of yours that comes on line when the evaluating part quiets way, way down. But you see, few want to put in the effort to do that, they want to have "God" reveal himself in a way they can evaluate - meaning, people want to keep on trying to think or reason or calculate their way "there." Of course this will never work, and so people naturally write the whole thing off as irrational, or "faith," or a feeling or belief, yada yada.
Fact is there IS an objective side to the no-thingness of God. Most people have had some boundeary experience where they brushed up against it, but it quickly evaporates unless you have a practice to stablalize those openings. The biggest obstacle is thought itself - not that thought is THE problem, rather our attachment to it. It is exceedingly hard to hang for long in no-mind or "the cloud of unknowing" because out minds want to grind on something, and most people start feeling anxious and bored or perturbed when their compulsion for information and answers is not immediately gratified. That's why getting quiet is so hard. The evaluating mind will tell you getting quiet is a total waste of time since at first, no information is streaming in. It all feels like a blank.
But getting quiet is the start of all of it. Then you don't have to ask me for answers, you can find out for yourself. That's the whole point of it - to find out for yourself.
JL
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 18, 2009 - 01:41am PT
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"Perhaps the lesson here is to focus more on God / Universal Consciousness, and less on individual messengers and the battles of the past?"
Jan, what do you mean by God / Universal Consciousness? And in Japan how is it looked apron?
Edit; As I see it the drop is not the ocean, even though it's water.
At best are consciousness can feel at one, like with a sunset. But God is overwhelming! It's not like the ocean pours into and obliterates the drop.
God is eternal we are finite. More like love, The Song of Songs!
Christ said I AM the bridegroom and the church is the bride!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 18, 2009 - 02:17am PT
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JL-
Thanks for that great explanation! It's what all of us who have experienced it are trying to express, but not nearly so well.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 18, 2009 - 02:27am PT
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JL, I think I've done that, which is why I do what I do... it's imperfect, it's provisional, but it does ultimately lead to understanding, and even better, it defines what we don't understand.
I'm not in it for the truth, you guys can have at that, I'm happy to work on knowing how it all works is all. I don't think there is an ultimate answer, I'm not looking for that either. And there are certainly really hard problems that are going to take a long time to puzzle out, long after my work is done, so be it.
It goes together bit by bit, and I can contribute my bit... it's been roughly 500 years and it will still be going on 500 years hence.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 18, 2009 - 02:29am PT
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Gobee-
In the east, this analogy is given. When we dip a cup into the ocean, we can talk about my cup and my water. Once the water is poured out of the cup back into the ocean, we can no longer say what was once our contained salt water and what is the original.
The cup is like our bodies and our true original essence (image and likeness) is no different than the source, only covered up with ignorance/sin/karma which hides its true nature. If we are not sufficiently purified, then like oil, we will float upon the water and not be reabsorbed.
This is of course predicated on reincarnation and the idea that we have many chances to slowly realize our true nature.Purification goes faster with a guru/spiritual guide but we can do it ourselves also by making a direct connection.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 18, 2009 - 02:32am PT
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The term ferengi (several variant spellings) originated in the Middle East about 900 years ago, a corruption of the word "Frank". There's a long pre-story, but for our purposes, the peoples who first recovered southern Italy and Sicily in the late 10th and early 11th centuries, and then much more dramatically conquered much of the Holy Land/Palestine/the Levant from 1095 CE onward, were generally known as Franks. They were largely recent descendants of Vikings who'd settled in northern and western France, especially Normandy, and England.
Palestine then had a mixed population of Muslims, Jews and Christians, but the Crusades left an utterly indelible and bloody impression on the Muslims particularly. After the battle of Tours/Poitiers in 733, and the slow reconquista in Iberia, the Crusades were the first strong Christian/European reaction to the Muslim conquests that started in 632 and lasted until their last siege of Vienna in 1689. The Muslim-Christian wars from the 11th to 18th centuries were often conducted with great ferocity, especially on the Christian side - particularly the Crusades of the 12th century. It has not been forgotten. The crusader kingdoms occupied much of what is now Israel, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria for more than a century - it wasn't a temporary thing.
First to the Muslims of the Middle East, then to all peoples there, and spreading east and south, the word Ferengi came to mean a Frank, a European - a savage bent on conquest, in the name of a savage religion. An impression that was reinforced when Portuguese, then Spanish, English and Dutch vessels found their way into the Indian Ocean from da Gama's voyage of 1497 - 98 onward, pillaging and conquering as they went. Often in the name of god, of course.
Which at length illustrates the political and military impact that Christianity has had on the peoples of south and southeast Asia. The Christians also brought with them their beliefs, as is shown by the Phillipines particularly. The peoples of the region may not have been exposed to the full force of Christian proselityzing, are numerous, and have their own well-established belief systems. But they haven't been unaffected by Christianity.
In 2001, Shrub said he wanted to conduct a crusade against the terrorists in Afghanistan, or something of the sort. Showing how little he and his advisors knew about history. The horrific negative connotations of crusades by Christian Ferengi (now including the US) against Muslims caused the term to be quickly dropped.
A later edition of Star Trek called an alien race the Ferengi, picking up on this bit of history and linguistics.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 18, 2009 - 02:42am PT
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Ed-
Spiritual people think the physical world reflects a universal Consciousness. Therefore someone seeking to understand the physical world, has chosen that path toward understanding the underlying Consciousness.
As long as you approach the enterprise with awe, wonder and gratitude for the beauty and order of it all, and are decent to your fellow human beings, that is enough. Whether you believe in a universal Consciousness or not, science is your spiritual path.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 18, 2009 - 02:54am PT
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Mighty Hiker-
Thanks for the really interesting history! I certainly know about the atrocities of the crusaders but quite a lot of your information was new to me. You know the crusaders got impatient to start killing Muslims, and their supply lines were messed up, so they attacked fellow Greek Orthodox Christians in Constantinople before they made it to the Holy Land. There are even accounts in letters and journals sent back to Europe of them killing and roasting Orthodox Christian children on spits and eating them to survive. Imagine what they did to the Muslims when they finally found them!
As for ferengi in Asia, the term might have been passed by the Arabs to the Persians to the Indians who used it and passed it on to places like Thailand before the British conquest? One could imagine that only with western inspired schooling they came to distinguish between foreigners?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 18, 2009 - 02:59am PT
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It seems a bit of hubris to claim a universal consciousness upon such meager knowledge of what the universe actually is, that the stuff we are composed of constitutes less than 4% of what we know to be there, that we might have a clue as to 22% of the rest, and actually a bunch of conjectures as to the remaining 74%.
That we could claim a universal truth based on so short a time being conscious...
I find that sublime feeling when I look upon something so vast that I loose that intimate connection to self, you can feel it standing on an eastern Sierra peak and looking across the valley to the east some 8000' feet below you out and across to the Nevada basin-range, seemingly forever.
But that is a view not even like the one from your backyard compared to what we know of the physical world, and the way we know it is something anyone could know but surprising few choose to.
There is a simplicity and a grandeur in a discussion with nature.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 18, 2009 - 04:00am PT
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It would be colossal hubris to claim a universal consciousness upon such meager knowledge of what the universe actually is… ..
If one accepts that mystery is at the heart of spiritual experience, then why is it hubris to say that one believes in a Consciousness beyond our comprehension precisely because of the size and beauty of the universe and the fact that science is silent on the subject of causation? Is it not also faith to believe that someday scientists will be able to explain it all and that it will have a purely physical explanation?
My favorite example along these lines is Francis Crick, the Nobel laureate for codiscovering DNA and vehement atheist, who in 1981, wrote a book called, Life Itself: Its Origin and Nature, in which he pointed out the very interesting fact that we find the amino acid building blocks of DNA on meteors floating through the universe. He then extrapolates that their source is an advanced civilization that we know nothing about which has seeded the universe with amino acid covered meteors as part of a giant experiment to see if they could start life on other planets. He even gave this imagined experiment the name of panspermia. So meteor flinging spacemen or God, which is more irrational?
Now it seems to me (and I say this in general, certainly not about you personally, and definitely tongue in cheek), that if they aren't careful, scientists could be setting themselves up to be the new high priests of the age with the same predictable results as the last set.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 18, 2009 - 05:12am PT
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I can live with that, better than having those pesky Ferengi in charge of everything....
Jan, Back to Basque-ics. I've read mention of that language thing a few times, and I assume that the geographical ur-home of the Basques coinciding with a rich center of Neanderthal culture has to do with it. It would be fascinating to know more about those other linguistic isolates, you mention....
Language reflects so much about a culture, and if we could quiz neanderthals it would perhaps tell us much about our relatives, whether or not they are exactly, 'people'.
In Russian there is no verb 'to be' in the present tense. You don't say "I am a doctor", in that tongue, you say "I Doctor". But the 'am' is implied by the context. It is at once more direct without being uncouth the way it sounds in English. I tend to think of it as a closer association with the person and the condition, or state of being. Perhaps a reflection or expression of the universal conscienseness you mention. [not sure where chronic inability to spell, comes in]
In Russian, the first line of Notes from the Underground, (Dostoyevsky) sounds like "Ya Bolyen";two words, a personal pronoun and a conditional, that together, suggest, "i am sick." To my ear this puts the person and the condition much closer together than when you say it in English, or the way it is said in romance languages, to my understanding, anyway.
just a couple examples.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 18, 2009 - 10:52am PT
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Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand; do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me—practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.
It is a gift of God!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 18, 2009 - 11:16am PT
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Gobee, what is your point in posting these constant biblical passages?
Are you evangelical, trying to "convert" people here to your belief system?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 18, 2009 - 11:45am PT
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to be a scientists, to learn science, to add to the scientific "cannon," all of these things can be done as a matter of choice by the individual wishing to do them...
there are no vows, no received wisdom, no divine edict of a chosen
anyone can become a scientist, anyone can do science
science is not silent on "causation" which I interpret is how this all came to be, this bit of universe that we are aware off, nor of the origins of life, nor of consciousness. All these things fall in the domain of science too, as scientists will ask their questions and pursue the answer. The answers are incomplete and provisional, and do not satisfy most people's needs for an answer. In some cases the answers are unwelcome and dismissed as counter to human experience and intuition.
many times science is seen as the destroyer of the spiritual, of cold mathematical logic which drains the mystery or the mysticism out of our experience, drains the meaning out of that experience.
science should not become a religion, I believe that it cannot become a religion and remain science. On the other hand, science is done by people, and that brings in the full range of personalities and human foibles. That cannot be avoided, but it need not deter the activity of science.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 18, 2009 - 12:04pm PT
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"no received wisdom, "
Doesn't one recieve (?) wisdom through research?
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Oct 18, 2009 - 12:11pm PT
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Definition of an atheist: one who rebels against the truth and knowingly deceives himself. Doesn't seem like a good position to be in.
"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."
flanders
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 18, 2009 - 12:36pm PT
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I believe that "Ferenghi" was mainly used in its original sense by the mainly Muslim peoples and countries from north India across to Anatolia and then south the east coast of Africa. Particularly in southwest Asia in the Middle East, it was a term of approbation. The farther one went from the area of the Crusades, the more it became simply a term meaning "European" or even "foreigner", and the less it carried the military and religious connotations. Its widespread use is fascinating. I wonder if there is a definitive essay on its etymology somewhere?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 18, 2009 - 01:37pm PT
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Definition of an god believer: one who rebels against the truth and knowingly deceives himself. Doesn't seem like a good position to be in.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 18, 2009 - 01:38pm PT
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Amen! Kinda
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apogee
climber
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Oct 18, 2009 - 01:43pm PT
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This thread has as much potential to change the world view of others as does the 'Repubs are Wrong' thread- 12,000 posts later, everyone is still sprayin' the same sh#t.
Carry on.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 18, 2009 - 03:38pm PT
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It is impossible for man to come up to the level of God consciousness,( the water from the cup and the ocean being the same) just because you are here. The Jews, even though they were the people God chose to reveal Himself to, are not saved just because they are Jews! You are not saved because you have more checks in the good column. You can't blame God, circumstances, other people, or Satin, for your deeds, but you have to admit your own guilt, it's in are fallen corrupt nature to fall short of the glory of God.
Nothing in are flesh is good. God looks at your heart, He wants pure desires, character, not just good deeds.
Jesus offers us a fresh start, a new birth, we can't do it on are own!
Psalm 51
Create in Me a Clean Heart, O God
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David, when vNathan the prophet went to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.
Have mercy on me, O God,
according to your steadfast love;
according to your abundant mercy
blot out my transgressions.
Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
and cleanse me from my sin!
For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is ever before me.
Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight,
so that you may be justified in your words
and blameless in your judgment.
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Behold, you delight in truth in the inward being,
and you teach me wisdom in the secret heart.
Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Let me hear joy and gladness;
let the bones that you have broken rejoice.
Hide your face from my sins,
and blot out all my iniquities.
Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and renew a right spirit within me.
Cast me not away from your presence,
and take not your Holy Spirit from me.
Restore to me the joy of your salvation,
and uphold me with a willing spirit.
Then I will teach transgressors your ways,
and sinners will return to you.
Deliver me from blood guiltiness, O God,
O God of my salvation,
and my tongue will sing aloud of your righteousness.
O Lord, open my lips,
and my mouth will declare your praise.
For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it;
you will not be pleased with a burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.
Do good to Zion in your good pleasure;
build up the walls of Jerusalem;
then will you delight in right sacrifices,
in burnt offerings and whole burnt offerings;
then bulls will be offered on your altar.
Jesus is the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 18, 2009 - 04:09pm PT
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Back from my own personal "Bermuda Triangle" of Orange County, The Desert and San Diego and able to access the ethernet again. Difficult to keep up with you all when I'm gone for hours, days at a time.
Thank you John Long for answering my question. JL wrote 10-17 at 7:42 p.m., "this is the great misconception about spirituality, that the meat of it is purely subjective, man made brain generated and that if you "know" otherwise that knowing is either based on a belief or a subjective state."
So if I "get" what you are saying.......Song of Songs, Beatitudes and Sermon on the Mount are beyond "a subjective amalgam, a feeling or a mood."
JL also indicates that many conclude that objective provides the foundation for higher subjective functions.
So this is my take living life on this planet observing, living and learning. To me The Sermon on the Mount is objective in nature and if objective is "lower" or "foundational" yes then the Sermon on the Mount is that.
I say this because if each human used TSOTM as foundation for living out a life in practicality on a day by day basis the world as we experience it would be absolutely, totally different than how it has evolved up to today.
For instance, "the meek will inherit the earth." See also Ps. 37 and Genesis 1:28.....God's intent was that the human race take responsibility for the environment and the other creatures that inhabit our planet. God was careful how he made all, we need to be equally careful how we take care of it. Destroying the earth and it's resources was not what God had in mind.
There are many foundational truths in TSOTM. I like Matthew 5:23,24. It talks about bringing a gift to God. When you do that and remember that your brother has something against you.....you are to leave the gift and go and reconcile with your brother and then come back and offer your gift.
What wisdom. It struck me one day that leaving your gift there pretty much forced you to deal with the issue at once and come back...leaving the gift commits you to finish the act of reconciliation. As much as you can on your part of course.
My life has been incredibly blessed because of (as really difficult as it was !!!!) forgiving and reconciling.....even when I was sometimes the wronged one. This is why I think these are foundational truths......
Anyway, I'm kinda simple. I could have Totally and Completely misinterpreted JL's statement...... oh well, :D lynne
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 18, 2009 - 04:19pm PT
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"It is impossible for man to come up to the level of God consciousness,"
now you hold yourself in such high esteem that you presume to know the mind of god?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 18, 2009 - 04:20pm PT
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Craig wrote: "So suppose you get quiet, you go into a cave, lock yourself in, and for 30 years you nothing except meditate on God, and the unknowing
1000s of people have done that, and still can not say anything more about God than we can now. They still don't know if there is a God or not.
So if you do everything possible to experinece God, and you end up the same, only knowing that he may or may not exist
and in addition, God is not needed for anything, since he is NO thing, he may have or have not created the universe, he may have or have not created man in his image
Why do we have to say there is God at all, and why must we strive to Know him.
Wouldn't it be better to just say there is NO God, and focus on things that are real, like knowing your mind
And if there is a God, I, like Ed, want to find out all about him, how he created the earth, life,
You can not say there is something, GOD, that does this and that, then say I can not know about that."
The problem with all of this is that yo are not really involved in any kind of inquiry here at all. You already have a rigid answer in your head per all of your "questions," and all you're doing is arguing on their behalf and looking for cohorts or confederates to vouchsafe what you think you already "know."
Fact is, you're mainly arguing against a material representation of God, or against old Biblical metaphors that were never meant to be viewed as historical facts, or ranting about vicious and ignorant folk attached to organized religion. So what. Where does that leave you? Did it ever occur to you that your entire approach is off base? The 1,000s of people who went to caves (who does that nowdays???) and got quite - you're simply not impressed because they did not return with a "God" that fit your description, one you can "know" by your evaluating mind.
In dismissing all things spiritual, you're actually betting against yourself, which is a shame. You're arguing about not "needing" God (a very slippery term) but in my experience, it is all hooked up with being, which is not something that is going to replace your evaluation of how matter behaves in the universe.
Again, there IS an objective aspect to the unseen - it's worth persuing.
JL
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 18, 2009 - 04:34pm PT
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I just read Dr. F's comments also. Craig says," so if you do everything possible to experience God, and you end up the same ...only knowing that he may or may not exist....."
Craig, if indeed you DO everything possible to know God.....you will !
God is written in our hearts. Why do you think you even care ? Or anyone cares or posts on this thread. If it didn't mean something inside our core being these threads would go nowhere. :D
Favorite simple sentence of mine, I consider it a bonafide promise, "Draw near to God and he will draw near to you." James 4:8
And
"The Lord is near to All who call on him, to all who call on him in truth."
Psalm 145:18
Peace always and Joy, Lynne
Edit: one does not need to be quiet in a cave. It can happen anywhere. Of course alone in the middle of the Eastern Sierra's near a body of H20 is certainly my choice. Cheers !
Edit II: Ed H. says anyone can be a scientist. Ed this is lynne here, did you Really mean anyone ? :D
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 18, 2009 - 04:41pm PT
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Quote some more bible stuff, Gobee - how many have you converted so far?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 18, 2009 - 04:46pm PT
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What is a scientist?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 18, 2009 - 05:24pm PT
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suazwrc2RPU
Jaybro - a practitioner of the scientific method (?)
Lynne - yep, anyone, the collected body of knowledge is available to all, to access it you've got to learn the language, which is also available. Nothing prevents you from getting at any of this stuff.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 18, 2009 - 05:25pm PT
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"A person learned in science; a scientific investigator."
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 18, 2009 - 05:49pm PT
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I have undergraduate degrees in Science (Geology/Paleontology) and often use the scientific method, always for critical things, am I a scientist? I kinda don't think so....
Ed is a bonfide scientist, as I look at it.
Vedauwoo legend Doug Cairns said it took a Phd to call yourself a scientist, he was a mechanical engineer, and I implied once in a conversation that it needed to be in pure, not applied science. He didn't argue.
My ex wife is an MD. Her field, like that of engineers, depends heavily on science. She once said," I realized at some point that I am not a scientist".
In both cases, I think they would be scientists if, with their own backgrounds, they turned to research.
Someone Ed, I, and other people here know and climb with, has a phd in biology. She is one of the smartest people I've ever met. She used to work in research and now teaches. I would say she was a scientist before, but isn't currently.
Another one of the other smartest people I know is about a credit short of a Phd in M.E. He is currently a Carpenter in Laramie. He uses both the Scientific and the related, Socratic, method, many times, every day. Because, to quote Odub, "that's who he is." Perhaps more than anyone I've ever met.
What really makes a scientist?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 18, 2009 - 07:21pm PT
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Did Humans Evolve from 'Ardi'?
by Brian Thomas, M.S.*
Ardipithecus ramidus is an extinct primate whose fossilized remains were first found along the Awash River in Ethiopia about 15 years ago. Many fragments were collected, including shattered bones from a four-foot-tall female nicknamed “Ardi.” She was chosen to represent her kind, apparently because of the comparative completeness of her remains. Now Ardi’s discoverers believe they have collected enough data to reconstruct her history—but what does their data actually reveal?
Ardi was splashed onto the scientific scene with eleven technical articles in a special issue of Science, accompanied by depictions of the reconstructions of her bones. The reconstructions are based on CT scans of fossils, interpretative speculation in areas where there were no bones available, and more interpretation on how all the pieces fit together.
According to the researchers who found her, Ardi spent time as a human ancestor, based on their assumption that humans either evolved from her or some creature quite like her. “The Ar. ramidus fossils therefore provide novel insights into the anatomical structure of our elusive common ancestors with the African apes,” stated one of the Science papers, concluding that “Ar. ramidus implies that African apes are adaptive cul-de-sacs rather than stages in human emergence.”1 Another paper viewed Ardi as the source of a new model of hominid evolution:
Referential models based on extant African apes have dominated reconstructions of early human evolution since Darwin’s time…. Ardipithecus essentially falsifies such models, because extant apes are highly derived relative to our last common ancestors.2
Yet none of these statements carry meaning without the presupposition of evolution in general, and unless Ardipithecus is presumed to be an ancestor to man.
To place Ardi into human ancestry, as these authors insisted, creates more problems than it solves. For example, Ardipithecus' body structure shows no objective or undisputable transition toward uniquely human features. The authors themselves listed some of these differences: Humans have unique and interdependent sexual organs and reproductive biochemistry, unique feet, ankles and musculature, unique hip structure, unique teeth and crania, totally unique cognitive abilities, a distinct “gut structure,” upright walking, unique vocal apparatus, a “precipitous reduction of olfactory receptors,” mammary glands that retain a stable size, unadvertised female proceptivity, and an “unusually energy-thirsty brain.”3
Speculation and evolutionary guesswork, not scientific observations, are offered to bridge these gaps. Consistent with this is the broad use of speculative verbiage on the part of the authors. In the eleven papers in Science, the word “probably” appeared about 78 times, and “suggest,” “suggesting,” “suggestive,” or “suggests” were used 117 times, among other terms that are associated with an unsubstantiated story rather than a scientific description.
If Ardi is presumed to be a human ancestor, then the century-long concept that has been taught as virtual fact—that humans evolved from a chimpanzee-like creature (based most recently on the strength of a supposed 99 percent agreement between their genome sequences)—must be discarded! This is because of Ardi’s unique features, which she does not share with African apes (or humans). In other words, arbitrarily placing Ardi at the foot of humanity’s evolutionary tree means that she negates the long-held concept of an African ape-like heritage. The chimpanzee, then, would have to have evolved on its own separate path.
Ardi’s foot structure presents another problem for her assigned role in human ancestry. A lone Ardipithecus foot bone was described in 2001, and “it also shows a mosaic morphology that has features of both apes and A. afarensis [a.k.a. Lucy].”4 The other bones of her feet present no exception to the concept that Ardi possessed a mosaic of features, characteristics shared with other creatures and yet integrated into a uniquely created primate. She had hands for feet, and the long, curved bones of her fingers and toes clearly show that Ardi was adept at living in trees.
The Ardipithecus foot has its big toe “thumb” projecting strikingly sideways, which is hardly human-like. Nor are its other foot bones like those of chimps and gorillas, which have specially flexible feet that enable them to climb vertical tree trunks. Ardi’s feet are like those of some of today’s monkeys, which have a stable platform from which to leap, along with a fully developed grasping structure. Though the authors insisted that this stable platform was adequate for walking, other experts already disagree with this assessment.5
Ardipithecus-as-ancestor promoters stated, “The foot of Ar. ramidus shows that none of these ape-like changes were present in the last common ancestor of African apes and humans.”6 However, Ar. ramidus only “shows” what was present in pre-human “hominids” if Ar. ramidus is presumed, a priori, to be an evolutionary antecedent of apes and humans. It looks instead like an extinct but unique animal, which the authors themselves hinted at when they stated that “the Ardipithecus foot was an odd mosaic.”6
Bipedality expert C. Owen Lovejoy wrote, “We can no longer rely on homologies with African apes for accounts of our origins and must turn instead to general evolutionary theory.”2 Thus, setting aside evolution-inspired ideology, there is no scientific reason—or observed evidence—to believe that Ardi was an ancestor of mankind. In fact, there is every reason to believe it is solely an extinct primate, as uniquely created as any monkey still alive today.
References
Lovejoy, C. O. et al. 2009. The Great Divides: Ardipithecus ramidus Reveals the Postcrania of Our Last Common Ancestors with African Apes. Science. 326 (5949): 100, 104.
Lovejoy, C. O. 2009. Reexamining Human Origins in Light of Ardipithecus ramidus. Science. 326 (5949): 74e1.
Ibid, 74e7.
Harcourt-Smith, W. E. H., and Aiello, L. C. 2004. Fossils, feet and the evolution of human bipedal locomotion. Journal of Anatomy. 204: 404.
For instance, paleoanthropologist William Jungers, cited in Keim, B. Humanity Has New 4.4 Million-Year-Old Baby Mama. Wired Science. Posted on wired.com October 1, 2009, accessed October 1, 2009.
Lovejoy, C. O. et al. 2009. Combining Prehension and Propulsion: The Foot of Ardipithecus ramidus. Science. 326 (5949): 72.
http://www.icr.org/
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 18, 2009 - 07:22pm PT
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What an interesting Thread. Thanks Norton ! You began with a shattered skeleton and now we are discussing the definition of a scientist and who qualifies for the title of scientist.
How we have "evolved" .....way back and today. :D
According to the definition of science in the Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary I could be a scientist. Probably not so with the strict interpretation from Wikipedia.
What is in a name after all? It is the spirit of search and discovery inside one and how hotly they pursue their beloved topic that really defines scientist.....at least to lynnie. Sunday Smiles to All on ST.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 18, 2009 - 07:26pm PT
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"What makes a man? Sir?" Asked (the big) Jeff Lebowski.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 18, 2009 - 08:06pm PT
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Jaybro, remembering I am not yet fully evolved......who is Jeff Lebowski ???!!!333
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Oct 18, 2009 - 08:11pm PT
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God is the same yesterday, today and forever. To him, a "day" is but millions of years.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 18, 2009 - 08:11pm PT
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"The chimpanzee, then, would have to have evolved on its own separate path."
Yes, that has already been proposed from other lines of evidence.
We don't have a clue as to just how diverse the hominid family tree really is. Lots to still be found and correlated on that count. Still does nothing to endorse a magical mystery pseudo-explanation, in any event,
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 18, 2009 - 08:13pm PT
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Agree Pete, actually in one book it says "a day is but a thousand years"....but in general context I certainly agree. :D Peace, lynne
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 18, 2009 - 08:19pm PT
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"What makes a man? Sir?"
A penis?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Oct 18, 2009 - 09:56pm PT
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Lynne,
I'm usually pretty good at finding the reference. But I'm stumped on this one. [HINT]
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 18, 2009 - 10:03pm PT
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Gobee-
Your article, "Did humans evolve from Ardi?" based on "creation research" http://www.icr.org/ is a masterpiece of selective and out of context quotations about the data and its interpretation through the use of scientific method. Much could be said, but here's a list of the specific errors I spotted.
Errors:
Ardipithecus' body structure shows no objective or undisputable transition toward uniquely human features.
The uniquely human characteristic that Ardi shows is upright walking dated at 4.4 million years. Brian Thomas mentions upright walking and then goes on to ignore it.
In the eleven papers in Science, the word “probably” appeared about 78 times, and “suggest,” “suggesting,” “suggestive,” or “suggests” were used 117 times, among other terms that are associated with an unsubstantiated story rather than a scientific description.
We are dealing with a 4.4 million year old fossil, not some dead cat that's just been dissected. Of course we don't know everything there is to know about Ardi yet and at least scientific method is honest enough to admit this.
If Ardi is presumed to be a human ancestor, then the century-long concept that has been taught as virtual fact—that humans evolved from a chimpanzee-like creature (based most recently on the strength of a supposed 99 percent agreement between their genome sequences)—must be discarded!
No scientific work on evolution has ever claimed that humans are descended from chimpanzees or even chimpanzee-like ancestors. We share a high similarity in our genes (98%) because we have a common ancestor. Modern chimps are different and more specialized than 4.4 million old chimps just as modern humans are more specialized for ground dwelling than was Ardi.
The Ardipithecus foot has its big toe “thumb” projecting strikingly sideways, which is hardly human-like. Nor are its other foot bones like those of chimps and gorillas, which have specially flexible feet that enable them to climb vertical tree trunks.
This simply proves that the common ancestor of both Ardi and the apes was both less human like and less apelike than the modern varieties of either. What is surprising is that it is possible to have an opposable thumb and walk upright as this has not been seen before.The fact that the modern human foot is more functional for permanent ground walking is a good illustration of the fact that in 4 million years, evolution of the foot has occured.
if Ar. ramidus is presumed, a priori, to be an evolutionary antecedent of apes and humans.
Nobody but Brian Thomas is assuming that A. ramidas was an evolutionary antecedent to apes. Both A. radius and apes had a common ancestor.
Bipedality expert C. Owen Lovejoy wrote, “We can no longer rely on homologies with African apes for accounts of our origins and must turn instead to general evolutionary theory.”
Lovejoy is merely emphasizing this point. From Darwin on, it has been a principle of evolution that older fossils are less specialized to specific environments than more modern ones.
The real mystery here is why someone goes to such lengths to misinterpret scientific findings to try to force them into a particular creation account which was never meant to be a scientific explanation in the first place? True research proceeds with an open mind, "creation research" is only interested in distorting the data to try to force it into a preconceived conclusion. Far from helping, this kind of biased reasoning only drives more and more people away from religion every year.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 18, 2009 - 10:46pm PT
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Pass the Pitons Pete, Thanks for asking.....
Ps. 90:4 "For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night."
and II Peter 3:8 "With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like a day."
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 18, 2009 - 11:23pm PT
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Locker, where do you get these pics ..... and how is your Mom doing ? I think of her often..... Really, ever since you mentioned her when we climbed in Josh. Peace, lynne
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 18, 2009 - 11:46pm PT
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"He has also set eternity in the hearts of men;" Ecclesiastes 3:11. This refers to a deep seated, compulsive drive to transcend our mortality by knowing the meaning and destiny of the world. Because we are made in the image of God , we have an inborn inquisitivness about eternal realities. We can find peace only when we come to know our Creator. Since we were made for eternity, the things of time cannot fully and permanantly satisfy us.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 19, 2009 - 12:09am PT
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Locker's T-says it all. Right on Locker. Jesus message must be simple cause if it was not, if it were complex some people we love would be left out.
They are what our current society calls challenged. For many of us these friends and loved ones are beyond special. They are a sweet yet complex seasoning to life itself. Many don't understand their challenged status in our society or why God would allow them to be born with such difficulties to overcome. Well, I don't understand it all. But then none of us understand all the mysteries of life. Peace and Beauty, lrl
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 19, 2009 - 01:03am PT
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This is a definite must lose....the pic. Please, I'll bake you brownies laced with whatever you want. I have grandkids under 11 that watch here......Help!!! LOL Never thought I could have too much buff. Yikes. :D
Edit: at least lose the glasses......
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 01:17am PT
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Locker
Your narcissistic self has overwhelmed you again.
This thread has spiraled down into the "just plain stupid".
And it's totally dead.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 01:54am PT
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What do mean finally.
There never was any life in this thread to begin with.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 19, 2009 - 02:29am PT
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Well, Werner, there was alot of fossil life on this thread and some creation life.....but no still life. Actually, there was some really great, thought provoking dialogue. Peace, lynne
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 19, 2009 - 09:01am PT
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We all live in the cave of are own heads!
There is only one sky!
And the heavens declare the glory of the Lord
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 19, 2009 - 02:15pm PT
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In the field of Primate Evolution it would appear that for every fossil that comes along, the discoverers try to place that species right on the line that connects to modern day humans. They would rather that they discovery was not some evolutionary dead-end. They want to make the claim of a human ancestor.
There is powerful bias at work. This bias can make otherwise good scientists see things are are not there or sieze upon certain morphological traits while ignoring others.
The tree of primate evolution is no doubt enormously complex. With the very fragmentary snapshot that the fossil record gives us, its just plain hubris to come out and say that YOUR fossil is right on the human lineage and not off on some random branch.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 19, 2009 - 02:55pm PT
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Brian-
You are right to point out that human bias is sometimes involved in scientific research including the evaluation of fossils. After all, it takes a very special kind of person to toil for years in miserable conditions before finding an interesting fossil. The history of physical anthropology is replete with an unusual number of interesting characters. Of course they want to think that their find is something special and all those years of discomfort in the tropical sun were well spent.
You are also right that mistakes have been made in the past, usually from drawing too many conclusions from too little evidence. Not all of these misinterpretations have stemmed from wanting to put everything on the human line however, some suffered from the opposite problem.
All of the above are reasons for peer review. Academics are merciless with each other until they are satisfied that the correct interpretation has been arrived at. One builds a reputation for new discoveries but also for more precise and correct interpretations of old ones. The history of physical anthropology is also full of fierce disagreements over interpretations.
Through this process however, the parameters of the major fossil finds have been determined and it is really incorrect to say that it is impossible to know if something is on the direct human line or not. In part, we can be sure of this because each of these major categories overlaps the other in time and we have whole populations of fossils from these categories now, not just fragments. As I explained in a previous post, the major categories of Ardipithecus, Austrolopithecus, H. erectus, H. neanderthal, and H. sapiens are well known. It is only a few of the connectors between these groups that are still open to interpretation.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 19, 2009 - 05:08pm PT
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Jan, it is gracious of you to postulate/propose that Brian has acknowledged the concept of facts and logic...
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 05:12pm PT
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The soul exists.
Every living entity is an individual soul within the material body.
The soul has all the qualities but not the full quantity of the Supreme soul God.
We are not the body, but our covering the material body, is the vehicle we have entered and developed according to our consciousness.
Never does the driver of the car say I am a subaru, I am a Ford, etc. Still without the superior living soul, to get in and start the car it will never animate or move aside from all the obvious stupid examples that those wishing otherwise.
The proof exists of the soul by studying ourselves.
Studying dead bones and not life is waste of time. It is the indirect method. The direct method is go straight to life.
Life comes from life.
Dogs gnaw on bones .......
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 19, 2009 - 05:15pm PT
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Jaybro, you assume too much! The intent of my post was not to refute the validity of the Theory of Evolution, but to simply point out that scientist are people too, subject to the same pressures to succeed that we all are.
As Jan so ably pointed out, peer review should eventually result in an objective interpretation of each piece of evidence.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 19, 2009 - 05:17pm PT
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If you're soul-less, how can you be evil?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 19, 2009 - 05:21pm PT
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So Brian, now you admit you do refute logic, etc? just teasin'
Jan kinda already made the case for peer review..... What then, were you attempting to add?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 19, 2009 - 05:25pm PT
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fattrad, I just saw a close relative die in their home. I and one other person were the only ones there. For two hours, til the mortuary came, I gazed at a shell.
The life force was gone only the thing that encased it was left and that was rapidly changing ...... getting ready for the "from dust tho art to dust thou shalt return" stage.
There is more to a human than their body. Life force, soul, something is there. I do not believe "that something" just disappears into thin air at the time of death. That "something" made that person who they were......
My second close personal witness of death in less than 2 years. Live today everyone, no promise there will be a tomorrow. Love and help one another. Make life better for the people around you, even if they don't deserve it. Peace Always, lynne
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 19, 2009 - 05:27pm PT
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I was just pointing out that often conclusions go a lot further than they can be supported by the data. I believe that conclusions should be conservative.
Having said that, there are examples of great discoveries made on evidence as flimsy as a house of cards. The idea comes first and then the data is sought to support it.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 05:35pm PT
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Mighty Hiker -- "If you're soul-less, how can you be evil?"
Absolutely correct.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 19, 2009 - 05:54pm PT
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There is no evidence whatsoever of individual consciousness, or supreme consciousness, or any consciousness at all that does not depend on functioning biological processes.
We're like light bulbs. We burn, then we burn out or break, and we are done. Electricity still exists, sure, and they can always make new bulbs just like us. But for those bulbs to imagine that when their filament breaks, they're going to be magically transported to some great substation in the sky, or be reborn as a halogen if we were good enough, or whatever, well, hey, think what you like but there's no evidence for it. We are here for a very short time. This is not a test, it all we get. So play nice.
Same ethical conclusion, minus the fairy dust.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 05:57pm PT
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There is no evidence whatsoever of individual consciousness, or supreme consciousness, or any consciousness at all that does not depend on functioning biological processes.
Then you absolutely do not exist.
The real nature of the soul, which is spread all over the body.
Anyone can understand what is spread all over the body, it is consciousness.
Everyone is conscious of the pains and pleasures of the body in part or as a whole. This spreading of consciousness is limited within one's own body. The pains and pleasures of one body are unknown to another. Therefore, each and every body is the embodiment of an individual soul, and the symptom of the soul's presence is perceived as individual consciousness.
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 19, 2009 - 06:03pm PT
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We scientists are unable to measure anything approximating consciousness which persists after death. Therefore we don't have anything to say about life after death. Science doesn't say one way or the other, so you can believe as you wish.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 06:06pm PT
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When the soul is present in the body, there is consciousness all over the body, and as soon as the soul has passed from the body, there is no more consciousness.
This can be easily understood by any intelligent man.
Therefore consciousness is not a production of the combination of matter.
Your materialistic science is defective.
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 19, 2009 - 06:07pm PT
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As I said, if there is a soul that leaves the body, we scientists have no idea where it goes. We can't measure it.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 06:10pm PT
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Then you have to admit your materialistic science is defective.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 19, 2009 - 06:14pm PT
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Looking over the link of 'human' fossils that Ed posted, and I truly, in no way sarcastic, have to ask;
What, Is, a human being? Is homo v Pongo for the genus, accurate enough?
I have stared, eye to eye, with a gorilla, and knew I was interacting with, a man.
Also, kinda OT at the moment, but relevant to us all, from slightly upthread; "no promise there will be a tomorrow. Love and help one another".
Can't be said enough.....
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BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
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Oct 19, 2009 - 06:20pm PT
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I guess that I don't exist either, Werner. But we have chatted a few times. Were you talking to yourself?
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 19, 2009 - 06:45pm PT
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Werner, why must it (Science) be defective? Because we don't have answers to every question? We will not fabricate answers to all of mankind's questions.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 19, 2009 - 06:50pm PT
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Werner, that's called the nervous system. It consists of electrochemical impulses that are integrated in the brain, which is fueled by oxygen. Take away the oxygen and it all stops. The Ayurvedic concept of the bodhi is spot on, as far as it goes, but as soon as the biological process ceases, so does the state of consciouness.
Zen koan: When a candle is extinguished, does the flame go north, south, east or west?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 19, 2009 - 06:56pm PT
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When a candle is extinguished, does the flame go north, south, east or west?
Where does your fist go when you open your hand?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 06:59pm PT
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Real science, is to find out the original source.
They think this body is the only gain.
That science may help how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex. That's all.
And that is being done by the animals. It doesn't require any advanced scientific knowledge.
And beyond this body there is another gain. That is not known. They do not even know .
That is the defect of their so called modern civilization.
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 19, 2009 - 07:00pm PT
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Werner, you have science confused with philosophy.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 07:10pm PT
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Nope.
You have it confused.
The science is not limited to limits.
Science encompasses everything.
Knowledge, as of facts or principles, knowledge gained by systematic study.
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 19, 2009 - 07:26pm PT
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Werner, you are the reason this thread exists. Scientist know the boundaries of their discipline, but creationist do not. There is a fundamental misconception that many people have about what science is and is not.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 07:35pm PT
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Material science has moved into the destructive realm of gross materialism.
Science encompasses everything.
You do not make the rules.
Even the materialist must submit to the superior power of Material Nature.
Science: Knowledge, especially that gained through experience.
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 19, 2009 - 07:38pm PT
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Science does have a hard and fast rule and that is, if a hypothesis cannot be tested, it is outside of science.
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 19, 2009 - 07:59pm PT
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I don't let non-scientists define my discipline for me. Good day sir!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 19, 2009 - 08:05pm PT
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"Of the gods we believe, and of men we know, that by a necessary law of their nature they rule wherever they can." - Thucydides
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 08:09pm PT
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The scientist can not explain anything fully.
Therefore their complete knowledge is still zero.
What good is this so called science? Just to glorify a coat (the material body) that covers the real person.
Learning the Science of the Self is science. You have failed your understanding of science.
You have taken science for yourself and put it into a box that you would like to control.
You have failed .......
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 19, 2009 - 08:15pm PT
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I now turn this discussion over to Norton, now that I have the savage tribes suitably riled up.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 19, 2009 - 08:33pm PT
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And the greatest fear today is that religious whackjobs don't get hold of those weapons. That's pretty ironic.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 19, 2009 - 08:42pm PT
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So, Werner, what suggestions would you make to scientists? Take someone like Ed Hartouni. Should he give up physics and learn another trade?
But wait. If I understand you correctly -- and I'm open to correction if I don't -- what you're saying is science is useless because it deals only with things of the body. But in that case, what about plumbing? Or car repair? Or growing food? All these endeavors deal only with things of the body. Should we stop bothering with food because our bodies are not worth feeding? Why do you go up on El Cap in horrible weather to save climbers if their material bodies are irrelevant?
I really don't understand where you're going with this. It seems you have a very material focus with your work -- which is totally focused on saving bodies -- but huge disrespect for scientists because their work is focused only on helping the body.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 08:53pm PT
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Oh they can't deny. It's impossible.
Can't be done. Every breath "prana" is his source.
They are rascals trying to shove their theories down everyone's throat.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 19, 2009 - 08:56pm PT
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"THOU SHALT HAVE MANY GODS, AS MANY AS YOU WANT, WHATEVER MAKES CRAGMAN HAPPY"
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 19, 2009 - 08:59pm PT
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That's an odd one, eh? Other Gods? I thought he was the only one... and yet he admits he's not, but he's a jealous little crybaby about it.
Check out the Gnostic gospels for a whole different take on precious little Yahweh and what he was really all about.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 19, 2009 - 09:02pm PT
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Oh, I'm fine Cragman, it's the Santa, Easter Bunny, and guy in the sky
people who should be worried about themselves.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 09:05pm PT
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Dr F -- You can not criticize science, it is a natural process.
Yes, absolutely true.
When a lot of science has fallen into bullsh'it then it can be criticized just as you criticize the so called false religion.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 09:12pm PT
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Thus the "Science of the soul" is a natural scientific process to understand the constitutional position of all living entities.
To attach this process to some fundamental secretarian religion shows a poor fund of knowledge.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 19, 2009 - 09:16pm PT
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But there is no scientific evidence for the soul. It's an imaginary, artistic concept, rooted in the denial of the actual evidence that when we die, out little light goes out, and that's all. Why should that be such a bad thing? It's the time spent here and now that counts for everything.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 09:25pm PT
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Only you say that cintune, and those of you in the same camp.
You are nothing just as you preach your so called facts based on therory. You can not do anything and yet you're preaching this bullsh'it.
You ultimately do not know. So your knowledge is worthless because it's still theory.
Science is acceptable by the human society.
Medical science, legal science, engineering science.
But that type of science is simply useful so long you have got this body.
But as soon as your body is finished, there is no more use this type of science.
Thus ultimately modern so called science is defective due to not understanding the origin, the source,
Just all theories, which influence the way we make our world.
Thus those who rebel against dogmatic secretarian religions promote the exact same dogmas with their so called theories.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 19, 2009 - 09:32pm PT
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No such thing as a so-called theory. There are theories, and there's blind faith. Take yer pick, whatever gets you thru the night, alright.
And yeah, skip, but extraordinary claims require evidence. You're putting the horse behind the cart.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 09:33pm PT
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All the proof is there, rascal.
Go back to your laboratory and chew on your dead bone.
Either that, make a real scientific search/research.
All rascals .....
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 09:35pm PT
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Then you pay since you owe and then you'll be free .
Simple logic.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 19, 2009 - 09:55pm PT
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"Dogs gnaw on bones ....... "
Some people want Barbeque Sauce instead of God!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 19, 2009 - 09:58pm PT
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Isn't alleged "absence of evidence" the life support dogma of creationism? Even when they get their noses rubbed in it?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 10:06pm PT
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They have nothing. Just words like "blind faith" believe what you want to believe.
Only a rascal will say some nonsense like that. It's foolish people like them that have the actual blind faith saying there is no soul.
You have to be a total fool to claim that you do not exist.
The symptom of the soul has been thoroughly proven since time memorable.
Now these so called rascals who are thoroughly defective in every way created thoroughly defective instruments out of limited material elements to measure and try and find the soul and claim that they know.
They know nothing of where those material elements originated what to speak of the soul.
They have no knowledge except worthless theory and their own blind faith, believing their own self made puffed up knowledge that we are now scientist.
More rascaldom.
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apogee
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 10:16pm PT
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"Change is evidence of one's willingness to leave a world of myopia, and broaden one's horizons."
Would this statement apply to an individual who is questioning their long-held creationist beliefs, and 'broadening their horizons' by giving close consideration to evolution? Or does it only apply 'one-way'- when an individual embraces creationism/Christianity, and largely eschews science?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 19, 2009 - 10:22pm PT
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Werner, really you are overstating your case. Whether the soul exists or not is a matter of belief, by your own rules, really. What is beyond the physical is not within the domain of science. Science has nothing to say on that matter.
Science is provisional, and it only applies to the physical domain.
Now we can debate whether or not what is believed to be beyond the physical must exist, I happen to believe it is a part of thought and is real only in thought, but since thought motivates action the outcome is essentially the same.
Existence beyond this particular life is also something which is "beyond physical" and once again may or may not exist. I also think it does not, but that's just me.
It is both true to say that science has not measured the "soul" and that there is a "soul." But the reconciliation is not acceptable to those who believe in the soul. It is that the soul exists in the domain of our thoughts, our imaginations. For some reason, this is rejected as being lesser than "true existence" but the constraints put on what existence is for the soul, as we know it in this physical life, are such that that is the only place it can exist and escape our limited, but effective scientific method.
There is a sense of physical "life after death" but it is in the things we have done that are remembered, recorded and passed along. Newton's Principia Mathematica reads like a conversation with Newton... in a real sense he is there with us, at least that is the sense that I get. So a part of him lives on.
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apogee
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 10:23pm PT
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"Light triumphs over darkness."
Individuals find light in their lives in many, many ways. We should all have to freedom to do so, with the respect of others for our beliefs.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 19, 2009 - 10:24pm PT
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Did Neanderthals have souls?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 10:25pm PT
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Every living entity has a soul which is the individual which operates the material body.
Saying that the lower forms of life have no soul is poor fund of knowledge.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 10:31pm PT
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Again Science;
Noun: Knowledge, especially that gained through experience.
Knowledge, as of facts or principles; knowledge gained by systematic study.
You can not put science into a box and limit it to only the gross physical domain.
It becomes defective.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 19, 2009 - 10:32pm PT
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While I don't agree with Werner, what he is talking about is something worked out over a very long time by many very wise people. It is undeniable that we have certain thoughts and feelings about life, death, etc... Spirituality and mysticism are relatively common and recurring themes in the human experience. These are often manifest in religious beliefs, philosophical systems, etc.
Science limits the domain of its inquiry to what is physical. Within that domain it has been the most successful system to produce knowledge which is actionable, this thing we are communicating over is the result of that knowledge production.
One has to face some reconciliation of what and where a concept of "god" and like comes from... and for me that is through the process of thought and imagination. Those concepts can exist there without being physically real, and if they are compelling they can have a real effect on peoples actions. But they may not be physical. Perhaps that is too easy, as I said, most people don't accept it because it existence in thought alone seems to be "lesser" but I don't see it that way.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 10:34pm PT
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No it has to be real.
God can not be an imagination.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 19, 2009 - 10:37pm PT
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It's not God created in man"s image!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 19, 2009 - 10:39pm PT
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Yes it is.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 19, 2009 - 10:40pm PT
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Yawn. G'night, faithful ones.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:03pm PT
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Cintune, Sorry so long in answering your 10-19 post at 2:54 pm.
No way can you compare a human being with a light bulb filament. Dude,,,,,yo know betta. Do filaments love, create other humans, have
a yearning for discovery of life and adventure, feel driven to produce life philosophies to order and govern their lives by ????? Uh, Nada :DD
Peace Bro, lynnie
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:12pm PT
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It's about having a relationship, a personal relationship with God, who sought us before we ever thought of seeking Him.
For those of us who have decided to receive this amazing gift, we were not believers. The reason you don't believe, is that you don't believe yet.
It's not to us to prove Him. He has promised to prove Himself ... " ... for as many as received Him ..."
We all struggled and wrestled with Him, same as you.
I don't believe it gives comfort, not even for a minute, to not believe.
You and I believe most everything every day. If we didn't have faith created in us all, I would find it hard to close my eyes. You have to believe every night you'll wake up, but then, we don't know.
I am so thankful He loves us. No, this is not a God who is looking to just
squash humanity. He loves us. But, you meet Him on His terms. After all, He is God. Not us. That's the first step.
Science has never disproved the existence of God.
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:20pm PT
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everyday, yes !
How can we expect to navigate through the complexities of life without
seeking advice from the ONE who created it all.
Doug
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:21pm PT
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what is beautiful to us is probably not what is beautiful to say, Crovus corax
so there is an element of our experience which really depends on how we think, how we experience our lives... science has a lot to say about how we think... but what exactly those thoughts would be? probably somewhat beyond what would be interesting to science anyway...
Now I still disagree with Werner, I am not sure that we would agree on what is "real" because for me that is limited to what is physical. But my thoughts are real, and I can have thoughts about unphysical things, and while I don't think that that allows those thoughts to be realized in my reality, I know how powerful those thoughts can be.
I do not know Werner well enough to actually know what is in his mind, but I have a model of human consciousness, we all do, that makes me think I know something about how everyone of you is thinking and experiencing life. It is probably a good approximation to reality. I can act on that thought, that model of your existence and it can guide my behavior. Treating you like I want you to treat me, well that doesn't need much beyond this common empathy we share. Perhaps there is fear involved, but there can also be joy in that too. But that empathy is based on a model... imperfect and not quite "real."
No doubt that all living things probably have some sort of rudimentary awareness of life... certainly not as we humans experience it. It's easier when the life closely resembles us, to understand, to empathize with it.
In the end, we're doing the thinking, the rationalizing, the interpretation of our experiences. It is a trivial thing, but none of this happens without us. Physical existence happens without us, but the philosophizing is all us.
To first order, the existence of things beyond the physical is a concept, just as the physical is a concept. I can do objective things to verify my concept of the physical. I can only do subjective things to affirm my beliefs in things beyond the physical.
How we have these thoughts can be addressed by science.
What those thoughts are may not be. I don't see any contradiction there.
I, for one, do not feel the need of anything else but what is physical. I don't think that diminishes my experience of the wonder of existence in the least. I actually think it heightens it.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:21pm PT
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Warbler,
Your post 10/19 at 7:15 pm.
Question 1: Do animals have a soul ?.....I don't know.
Question 2: Do all animals ?....I don't know.
Question 3: Single Cell Animals ?....I don't know.
Where do you draw the line ???
Kevin, where I draw the line is at generalizations like the questions above. I do not KNOW that man is the only created being with a soul and a God.
I do know that when you leave all the generalizations behind and get into Your Own Life that the questions and answers become very telling.
The ocean of generalizations is a convenient way to avoid looking deeply into your own soul, being and heart.
Do I have a soul ? If I do, what do I do with it? Where do I go with this thing in my life that may be going somewhere after death? Can I get in touch with this soul thing ? Where did soul music come from.....Soul...I know it's real and we each have one in us. I've seen them depart. Gone. Body there soul gone.
What are yo answers to these questions? Wish we had a campfire in the middle of nowhere with the stars out and crisp air, to stimulate thought and friendship and answers. Peace all, Lynne
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:22pm PT
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Boy this has strayed from discussing evolution.
But let's be frank here: those who deny that life has evolved, in spite of mountians of fossil, molecular, and other evidence, are either ignorant about science or in serious denial to the point of intellectual dishonesty or delusion.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:27pm PT
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dirtbag, evolution involves more than physical bodies evolving. Evolution encompasses the thought processes of the human which leads to evolving life philosophies and beliefs...we evolve in many aspects and areas of our lives. Peace, Lynne
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:31pm PT
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Ok Lynne, but that is beside the point as to whether has evolved over 4.5 billion years (actually, a bit less than that) of the Earth's history.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:32pm PT
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...I don't know.
That's a start.
But "looking deeply into your own soul, being and heart" can just be a way to avoid looking deeply and honestly with the intellect.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:38pm PT
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Dirtbag, we have evolved. So now what?
How will you live your very own life every day? What will yo do tomorrow to make it your best life ever ? How will dirtbag evolve as a human ? Will you be only for dirtbag ? Will you dedicate yourself to others ? What will the evolution of your life philosophy involve on a DAY BY DAY basis ?
Evolution....Brain and God revolution....make it happen cause it only happens one time here. Give it your one and only best.
Tomorrow, for yo, maybe no.....jess sayin'. I've seen the no. I may be no,,,,,, tomorrow, lynne
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:43pm PT
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"Dirtbag, we have evolved. So now what?
How will you live your very own life every day? What will yo do tomorrow to make it your best life ever ? How will dirtbag evolve as a human ? Will you be only for dirtbag ? Will you dedicate yourself to others ? What will the evolution of your life philosophy involve on a DAY BY DAY basis ?
Evolution....Brain and God revolution....make it happen cause it only happens one time here. Give it your one and only best.
Tomorrow, for yo, maybe no.....jess sayin'. I've seen the no. I may be no,,,,,, tomorrow, lynne "
Good questions, BUT irrelevant to the question of whether life, physically, has evolved through the ages.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:47pm PT
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I dunno, Ed, are metaphors and abstract thought physical realites?
Though, I think you and I would agree that they are, products of physical reality.
You other guys, science doesn't prove or disprove god. Science isn't concerned with that. Electricians and plumbers may work side by side, but no amount of electron's will suffuse a teabag.
My own dog in this fight, is practioners of religion overstepping their turf and presuming to supplant science and education with religious dogma. It's irrelevant, dig? That's like stating that the square root of 144 is high c.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:47pm PT
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Lynne:
No use talking about a "soul' until it has been given a definition that allows a "soul" to be distinquished deterministically from all other things that are not "souls." Nowhere have I seen such a definition.
Ed:
I agree that thought is can be considered real because, given the technology, we can go in and measure synaptic chemistry and neuronal activity patterns sufficiently to distinquish one 'thought' from all other 'thoughts." In the meantime it is surely an area of study.
Earlier I offered a functional definition of consciousness as the preparation an organism makes for the present moment to be followed by another moment. Survival mechanisms are so general, this kind of consciousness exists in all organisms, since nearly all employ survival strategies.
I think we however have hidden meaning when you and I talk about consciousness. We do not sense all that we mean and so cannot properly pose the question. A proposal.
Imagine that you have never learned a spoken language. What would you mean when you say "consciousness" in that case? You can not hear a voice telling you there is another moment coming.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:49pm PT
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If I'm crazy, that doesn't mean that God is! Everything about me is better because of my faith in God and Jesus! But I know that is from Him!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:51pm PT
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Nice 'avatar'!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:53pm PT
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Dirtbag,
"Good questions" ...yeah ! "Irrelevant" ,,,,,Nada !!! Dude, yo surely cannot think that a body can evolve without the brain also evolving along with it. Yeah :DD lynnie
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:53pm PT
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I don't know either but Jesus said . . .
Matthew 10:29-31
[29] Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
[30] But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
[31] Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
I read the above that God cares about all animals and he is there even at their death, even when we don't care and bother to think about it. Yet we are more valuable than all of them. This says a lot about how God really cares and loves us.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:55pm PT
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Sure Lynne, the brain evolved with it. But your questions seem more personal/introspective and not really related to evolution.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:56pm PT
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Yikes, jstan is back from his bike ride.....hehehe, lrl
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 19, 2009 - 11:58pm PT
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Dirtbag, Yes !!!! My questions are aimed at relevant day to day living which then produces a history of mankind overtime. Stop ! with the obscure generalizations. Life is lived by a human one day at a time, one step at a time with peace, patience and perseverance. :DD
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jstan
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 12:03am PT
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Is it not possible for someone to "know" they are dying but they find they do not in fact die?
There is no certain bridge between what we "know" and what "is."
Your "knowing" that everything is from god, does not mean everything is. It is a perception you have and nothing more.
An example:
Since the time of Newton we have not "known" that force is the product of mass times acceleration. We have found that a very useful model, which now is developing some interesting new aspects, I have read.
Those interesting new aspects don't bother us in the least because we
NEVER PRETENDED TO KNOW IT IN THE WAY YOU USE THE WORD "KNOW."
Perfect knowledge is no more possible than it is to throw a perfect handstand.
Gobee, when you talk about "knowing", you are talking about something that does not even exist.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 12:03am PT
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Lynne, it's still a separate quesiton/questions from whether life has evolved through the ages.
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 12:05am PT
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Skipt, excellent reference to a route.
It is not a search within us. God will not intrude uninvited. All we do is ask. Yes, it's that simple. We recognize we have fallen short, we've all done this. We've all sinned, chosen to put our will above God. That is really what it is.
It is interesting. Over and over the struggle to not believe. You won't find us trying to prove Him.
We've been there. Honestly. Science, inward journeys, you name it - those obvious other "answers". They circle around and around. They struggle. We have been promised. God does not lie, it is impossible for Him to lie.
He will make Himself known.
Most of the struggle is the fear of how this will change your life. Yes, it will. Profoundly. To walk with Christ changes, fills you.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 20, 2009 - 12:07am PT
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What do you mean about separate questions, dirtbag ?
jstan, the people I saw die began dying when they were functioning normally in their brain. They knew they were close to death. Knew Well. When finally near the end the medical community moved in and gave drugs to induce a coma like state in both people even tho they were not similar in diagnosis or age.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 20, 2009 - 12:08am PT
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Ok, get it dirbag....life has evolved both mentally and physically during the ages.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 12:10am PT
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You're question is, basically, "So what?" right?
That's a separate question from whether life, in fact, has evolved.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 20, 2009 - 12:10am PT
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jstan, you are getting to far out for me. What I know is what is. When I have a bad hair day I Know I look BAD. When my leg is aching I know I have an injury. When jesus talks to me, I hear him. I wish I heard him more. But like yo husbands and wives....listening and tuning in is important.
I'll be out for awhile from the ethernet. Will miss yo All. Peace, lynne
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jstan
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 12:25am PT
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OK Lynne. You have never been sure something was true but it turned out not to be.
Must be great being perfect.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 20, 2009 - 12:31am PT
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jstan, sarcasm does not become humanoides. :D Yo know perfectly well no one is perfect.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 12:37am PT
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So is Gobee perfect when he "knows" god is everything?
Wasn't being sarcastic. It seemed the point just was not getting across so I had to take it to the final conundrum.
Skip:
Do you realize you put in a little twist of insult when you post? It is pretty consistent.
What ever you are trying to accomplish is not helped. It does not affect me but it does affect you. Easy to fix.
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Oct 20, 2009 - 12:39am PT
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Let me slink out of the dugout for a moment: Back to the Topic....
"The Cambrian Explosion, which occurred roughly 600 million yrs. ago is the single
greatest problem which the fossil record poses for Darwinistic evolution. Nearly all the
animal phyla appear in the rocks of this period, without a trace of evolutionary ancestors
that Darwinist require. As Richard Dawkins puts it, "It is as though they were just planted
there, without any evolutionary history." you don't say, Sherlock
Stephen J. Gould says: " Two different kinds of explanations for the absence of Precambrian
ancestors have been debated for more than a century: the artifact theory (they exist, but the
fossil record hasn't preserved them), and the fast-transition theory( they really didn't exist,
at least as complex invertebrates easily linked to their descendants, and the evolution of
modern anatomical plans occurred with a rapidity that threatens our usual ideas about the
stately pace of evolutionary change)"
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jstan
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 12:44am PT
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Flanders:
You need to read some of Stephen J Gould's work on rates of evolution. He dealt with it in some detail.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 12:48am PT
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They try at every which way to avoid any mention of God.
The mantra is "There is no God" my machine did not see him.
They have total faith and believe in their machine.
Just look at the suburban machine which feed the needs of the soul fallen down into it's narcissistic state of decorating it's body.
On ward marching robots, thinking for themselves.
Robots are programmed and created by higher intelligence to run .....
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Oct 20, 2009 - 12:51am PT
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You are delusional, Skip.
Jstan is one of the most respected posters here.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 12:59am PT
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Oh forget skip forget all your petty lives
Back to the laboratory to gnaw on the bone to find the origin.
Desperately seeking the bone ......
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 20, 2009 - 01:03am PT
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#1,500!!!111!!!666 Mine! All mine! My pwecious!!!
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 01:04am PT
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"Oh forget skip forget all your petty lives
Back to the laboratory to gnaw on the bone to find the origin.
Desperately seeking the bone ...... "
Well aren't we wearing the grumpy pants tonight.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 01:07am PT
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That means you have nothing except your tired old grumpy self as usual.
This is what you project .....
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 01:10am PT
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Sure, whatever Werner...
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 20, 2009 - 01:14am PT
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I guess this is a good example of someone that hasn't read any of the literature going on for thousands of years.
Is skip a fan of scholasticism too?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 01:16am PT
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C'mon dirtbag spit it out.
You're envious and scared of your own shadow.
You can only see your own self in me.
I am nothing ......
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 20, 2009 - 01:16am PT
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Skip said:
"Does Science have within it the capability of "Disproving" God .. explaining love .. proving beauty....
Or are the subjects of faith, religion, art, love, beauty ...... best left to another pillar of human thinking?"
Actually, IME, "thinking" is invaluable in dealing with material "things," but evaluating cognition is of very limited value in the spiritual arena.
What's more, Ed said: "To first order, the existence of things beyond the physical is a concept, just as the physical is a concept."
This, to me, is a total non sequitur. A "thing" IS physical, and for something to "exist" it has to be material or at any rate, it has to have an atomic footprint, and be related to material processes in a fundamental way. There isn't any "thing" beyond the physical.
That of a spiritual nature does not "exist" because it (for lack of another word) is unborn. The eternal never "came into existence" at some point in space and time, nor will "it" ever vanish. The spiritual simply IS, that's why all wisdom traditions relate spirituality to being, not thinking.
Of course none of this makes "sense," because "sense" is limited to "things" we can measure, contrast, and work over and adorn with our evolved minds and senses. That's why trying to investigate spirituality through standard thought processes will reveal nothing at all. The evolved brain can only grasp matter - that's what it does.
JL
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 20, 2009 - 01:27am PT
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To paraphrase,
That of a flying blue jack-o'lantern-headed, Christmas-eve, tooth-fairy bunny nature does not "exist" because it (for lack of another word) is unborn. The flying blue jack-o'lantern-headed, Christmas-eve, tooth-fairy bunny never "came into existence" at some point in space and time, nor will "it" ever vanish. The flying blue jack-o'lantern-headed, Christmas-eve, tooth-fairy bunny simply IS, that's why all wisdom traditions relate flying blue jack-o'lantern-headed, Christmas-eve, tooth-fairy bunnys to being, not thinking.
Absolute nonsense.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 20, 2009 - 01:27am PT
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You can't hold it in your hand, but it still has weight!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 01:30am PT
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JL -- "The evolved brain can only grasp matter - that's what it does."
Yes, the brain is the machine the soul works thru.
The working senses are superior to dull matter.
The mind is higher than the senses.
Intelligence is still higher than the mind.
And the soul is even higher than the intelligence.
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Oct 20, 2009 - 01:41am PT
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Maybe I'm a little slow on the uptake. I just read some of the posts around #1400. I am happy for the thoughts on science. Thank you.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 01:45am PT
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Skip:
My point here is that in a discussion it serves no purpose to say some of the things you do.
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 14, 2009 - 08:12am PT
"Jstan,
Your absence of intellectual honesty is stark.
But as I said, this is pretty much the standard "security blanket" pap from you as well as a very clear view into your inability to get "PAST" your Phd.
It would be very nice to see some of that Phd. in action on this subject rather than petty demagoguery. Which I can assure you will be thrown right back at you.
If there was ever proof that a Phd does not mean universal knowledge you are it. Your obvious inability to offer anything on this subject beyond repeating old and tired bigotry with a pseudo-intellectual twist (emphasis on pseudo) is telling.
You act like a child on this subject.
Grow up Jstan.
Skip"
End Quote
This is one of the slightly insulting posts.
I know you can do better. Enough about you.
Many times when I try to address a point, as I have posted before, I leave some of the logical steps to the reader. It would be insulting were I to leave nothing for the other to do. (Inferring something not actually stated is the exciting part of reading posts!)
When that does not seem to get across you either have to walk away/give up or press the logic to the final conundrum, as I said. When I sense people are reexamining things and there is hope of real movement by all of US, I'll push. Lynne is thinking.
If there is too little hope of accomplishing anything, I'll walk away.
Now I think many have given up on Gobee. I haven't, yet. As Lynne said, no one is perfect. That is something Gobee realizes and given that, he may just reevaluate what he means when he says he "knows."
I'll repeat something. Many of our problems come about because we are not careful enough in our use of language. This business about "knowing" seems an excellent example.
I don't really doubt there was a real person we have come to call Jesus. To have the effect he had he must have worked very hard to help people. I think in all this religious business
we entirely miss the truly inspiring story.
That a simple person just like you or me actually worked that hard and accomplished what he did. We have piled the bible with all of its 2000 years of politics and myth onto him so deeply we can't even see what was actually happening.
That what you or I do
can make a difference.
Small, but a difference.
You know that you are making a difference in your work with Jeanneau(?)
You are walking in some big footsteps.
Damn right you can do better!
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Oct 20, 2009 - 01:47am PT
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From Largo:
"That of a spiritual nature does not "exist" because it (for lack of another word) is unborn. The eternal never "came into existence" at some point in space and time, nor will "it" ever vanish. The spiritual simply IS, that's why all wisdom traditions relate spirituality to being, not thinking."
It took me a while to process. Maybe, from the masters came the monkeys. he he hii!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 01:56am PT
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Jstan
That's just how it comes across on the internet sometimes. Sorry about how you feel about skip and he feels about you.
As a consolation the next time we meet you can throw me into the mud for I am responsible in a way for resurrecting and steering this thread today for a while.
I was doing a Dr. F type assault from the other side of the fence. LOL
Not hard to do as we can see and ultimately does nothing for the truth must be seen and experienced by each individual.
Cheers, Werner
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 20, 2009 - 01:58am PT
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Weird Science
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jstan
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 02:10am PT
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Werner:
I am sorry if I cause people heartburn but until we all get better this is one of the minor problems in life everyone faces. As I said before I think what Skip and his lovely wife are doing is wonderful. Nothing he says can change that. Nothing.
Skip has excellent intentions. Expressing those intentions is not a fight. He does not have to come out on top. He need only say what he is trying to do and why.
It is the "why" that causes people to take notice.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 20, 2009 - 08:42am PT
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Oct 20, 2009 - 10:19am PT
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From Book of the Taco, chapter "Creationists Take Another..." wbraun 1386
"Oh they can't deny. It's impossible.
Can't be done. Every breath "prana" is his source.
They are rascals trying to shove their theories down everyone's throat."
Dude!?! Why is Mr. Braun spraying about the prana?!? Anyone out there with access to the corporate coffers taking note? I gotta bail to work (with my used watch and shirt, now if I had some used pants man, I could be the bomb).
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donald perry
Trad climber
kearny
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Oct 20, 2009 - 10:31am PT
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Evolution is very often not scientific. Those who espouse to this belief, as well as any other belief, are very often only trying to prove that belief. Face it, where evolution is in speculation there can be people in danger of losing their credibility! So often there is a choice that must be made between being objective and scientific and “wrong” or being dogmatic and going with the flow.
I would recommend that those who wish to espouse to the belief of evolution be careful that they are also truly learning to be objective. That they also start objectively dealing with material like The Hidden History of the Human Race and Forbidden Archeology written by Michael A. Cremo & Richard L. Thompson.
Evolution has become a “science” only to do with proving evolution! Research within evolutionism is in turmoil as many of those who have been making a living off it say that it can only be observed through their strict previously supposed hypothesis.
Many scientists today are arguing, in essence, that new information cannot be introduced to support science when, it may either contradict the theory of evolution, or rethink evolution through new information. That although evolution is not observable as part of anyone’s history it is filled with dogmatic facts.
However the fact is that new scientific arguments sustain theories as facts. When argument is necessary to be removed a theory evolves into a strategy for dogma controlled by a person or persons for some other end other then science, money or some political end could be at stake.
However when evolution can be revised, it could demonstrate that evolution is not as factual as it was previously, especially if it was faulty to begin with. And that, in my opinion is the problem with why new information, or what I would call true science, is often set aside.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 20, 2009 - 10:33am PT
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Kearny, Utah?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 20, 2009 - 10:37am PT
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Good point! until the world is made up only of decadent 'religionists' we are all doomed.
Got it!
Thanks!
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 10:44am PT
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"Evolution is very often not scientific. Those who espouse to this belief, as well as any other belief, are very often only trying to prove that belief. Face it, where evolution is in speculation there can be people in danger of losing their credibility! So often there is a choice that must be made between being objective and scientific and “wrong” or being dogmatic and going with the flow.
I would recommend that those who wish to espouse to the belief of evolution be careful that they are also truly learning to be objective. That they also start objectively dealing with material like The Hidden History of the Human Race and Forbidden Archeology written by Michael A. Cremo & Richard L. Thompson.
Evolution has become a “science” only to do with proving evolution! Research within evolutionism is in turmoil as many of those who have been making a living off it say that it can only be observed through their strict previously supposed hypothesis.
Many scientists today are arguing, in essence, that new information cannot be introduced to support science when, it may either contradict the theory of evolution, or rethink evolution through new information. That although evolution is not observable as part of anyone’s history it is filled with dogmatic facts.
However the fact is that new scientific arguments sustain theories as facts. When argument is necessary to be removed a theory evolves into a strategy for dogma controlled by a person or persons for some other end other then science, money or some political end could be at stake.
However when evolution can be revised, it could demonstrate that evolution is not as factual as it was previously, especially if it was faulty to begin with. And that, in my opinion is the problem with why new information, or what I would call true science, is often set aside."
Utter bunk.
You claim Michael Cremo is objective?
"Cremo is a member of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness and the Bhaktivedanta Institute. He has written several books and articles about Hindu spirituality under the name Drutakarma Dasa. He has also been a contributing editor to the magazine Back to Godhead and a bhakti yoga teacher. Cremo told Contemporary Authors that he decided to devote his life to Krishna in the early 1970s, after receiving a copy of the Bhagavad Gita at a Grateful Dead concert.[9] Over the years he professed adherence to traditional views with reference to both Western and Indian philosophical systems.[10] Michel Cremo (initiated name Drutakarma Dasa) was criticized by Communist sources of India due to close links with Hindu right wing nationalism along with David Frawley. He has met with Murli Manohar Joshi to discuss the Dwarka marine archaeology attempt to date "an alleged sunken ancient city" with evidence found off the Gujarat coast.[11] In the end of 1990s he headed an organized campaign from all sections of ISKCON to root out heretical views on disciplic succession called 'ritvkism', "once and for all and for good" [12] and authored a paper on the official ISKCON statement on capital punishment.[13] His work on Puranic Time and the Archaeological Record was published in the ISKCON Communications Journal.[14]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Cremo
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 20, 2009 - 11:31am PT
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Evolution is not only scientific, but it is the basis of all biological sciences.
Read here in Chapter 14 of "The Origin of Species" http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/origin/chapter14.html
As in most science, we progress through demonstrating that predictions of our theory are incorrect (not that they are correct, instead we say they are "consistent" with observation and experiment). Here is a list fashioned from The Origin of Species of Darwin's predictions. All are consistent with observation and experimentation. This is the hallmark of a scientific theory, it can be tested.
evolution explains biology
evolution happens through natural selection
evolution by natural selection has a natural mechanism
sexual selection also drives evolution
the earth must be old, older than several hundred million years
fossil record gaps will be filled in
all life descends from a common ancestor
there must exist a pollinator for the Angraecum sesquipedale
modern humans arose in Africa
humans evolved from an ape-like ancestor
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 11:41am PT
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The fruit fly was already there.
They did not create anything, just manipulated what was originally created.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 11:56am PT
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If they were "intelligentely designed"
"If" means you ultimately don't know.
Mental speculation
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 12:04pm PT
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Another mental speculation.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 20, 2009 - 12:29pm PT
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Wanda wrote: "To paraphrase,
That of a flying blue jack-o'lantern-headed, Christmas-eve, tooth-fairy bunny nature does not "exist" because it (for lack of another word) is unborn. The flying blue jack-o'lantern-headed, Christmas-eve, tooth-fairy bunny never "came into existence" at some point in space and time, nor will "it" ever vanish. The Of course none of this makes "sense," because "sense" is limited to "things" we can measure, contrast, and work over and adorn with our evolved minds and senses. That's why trying to investigate spirituality through standard thought processes will reveal nothing at all. simply IS, that's why all wisdom traditions relate flying blue jack-o'lantern-headed, Christmas-eve, tooth-fairy bunnys to being, not thinking.
Absolute nonsense."
-----
The above was in response to this: "Of course none of this makes "sense," because "sense" is limited to "things" we can measure, contrast, and work over and adorn with our evolved minds and senses. That's why trying to investigate spirituality through standard thought processes will reveal nothing at all."
----
Viola! "Nothing at all" somehow becomes "flying blue jack-o-lantern-headed, Christmas-eve, tooth fairy bunny."
Been working a little of the Olde English there, Wanda??
What this underscores is people's compulsion to try and frame spiritualty in terms of things their evaluating mind can grasp onto, and second, their mind will project onto said "things" whatever they have been told to believe per "religion."
One way you might find some traction here (beyond pumpkins and suck) is to ponder what is meant by the term "being" in human being. This might get you started.
JL
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Oct 20, 2009 - 12:53pm PT
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My mom told me that God created the heavens and the earth and that God's power is beyond my comprehension. My mom also told me that when all parts of my body are no longer functioning, that there is a soul that remains and goes to heaven and that I will be better off. She also told me that to speed up this process is evil and that if I kill myself to be closer to God and to be in heaven, that I will instead go to a place where I will be tortured for all eternity. She had some graphic pictures to go with the story.
My dad said that he has no idea how life came to be and that there is some evidence in fossils and in biology that we are very closely related to other primates like chimps. he said that many scientists think, because of how our genetics relate to those of other creatures and how often genes are thought to change, that we came from a common ancestor with chimps about 6 million years ago, give or take a few million years. He had some pictures to go with the story too.
Dave
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 01:05pm PT
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Why, are you looking for a new way to meet women?
;-)
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jstan
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 02:11pm PT
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Jeff has carefully neglected to specify what it is the hot GOP ers believe in.
Attila the Hun?
After reading some of the amazing stuff posted above:
Kearney quotes someone who does not seem to have any idea what science is. That text is spin, of course, specifically directed at that part of the population having that difficulty.That there are errors of one sort or another in science so it is entirely wrong. We are therefore left to THINK it is better to ACCEPT something that has no evidence for it at all and may well be entirely wrong. Because we know PERFECTLY that it is true. How do we know it perfectly?
Because someone told us it was true. We don't even know who it was that told us this.
In its grand and imperfectly known outline life has proceeded from single celled organisms up through many of the higher forms, the so-called ontogeny of life. And when the human blastosphere( the initial clump of dividing cells of the human fetus) assumes a shape, it proceeds through shapes vaguely like this series of higher life forms. The fetus goes through a phase wherein it looks vaguely like a fish. This is all stuff we learned in high school.
There have been unfortunate results because of this path of development. The design of and routing of nerves in our middle and inner ear areas are so constricted, complex, and exposed to damage because this area in the fish has these characteristics. We adopted that design in that stage of our evolution and never evolved away from it. If man had been intelligently designed in one grand swoop
we would not be built exactly as we are.
If there were a god who had done his work, I would not have suffered from Meniere's Disease and Bell's Palsy.
None of this, of course, is something one can "BELIEVE" as a "PERFECT" fact. But if you go and look in Gray's anatomy you will come away asking who the hell designed this?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 02:22pm PT
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Yes, go get a date with a monkey.
No human ever evolved from monkey/ape to human.
Pure utter total bullsh'it.
There is absolutely no evidence anywhere of such nonsense.
Darwin's concept, he used the natural selection, but he doesn't go far enough what that nature is. He has no clue what nature is nor where comes from.
All mental speculations based on imperfect scientists and their imperfect machines.
And they accept this nonsense, "Well this is all we've got"
"In the future" "We will"
Everything is going on perfectly without rascal scientist speculating and misleading people down the drain of only gross physical bodily consciousness.
Their whole science is defective from the very start.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 02:24pm PT
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What's wrong with the fossil and molecular evidence?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 20, 2009 - 02:42pm PT
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Rectorsquid: So you had to choose between a story that came from a book whose authorship is attributed to a supernatural being, or a story that came from contemporary observations of material facts.
A lot depends on one's upbringing, of course.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 02:47pm PT
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"Werner,
My urge to climb is no doubt derived from my distant cousin Ardi.
The evil one "
That's where my urge to have sex with chimps is derived!
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jstan
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 02:53pm PT
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"If this Planet was made in SIX(6) days... (COUNT THEM PLEASE!!!)...
How come we have Fossil evidence that dates back more than SEVEN(7) days???..."
I must say. This crew is hard to deal with.
I don't know how public school teachers manage to stay sane.
Oh oh!
Maybe they aren't.
Masochistic surely.
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Oct 20, 2009 - 04:05pm PT
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I remember learning about homeobox genes in school:
From Wikipedia:
"Diversity
The homeobox genes were first found in the fruit fly Drosophila melanogaster and have subsequently been identified in many other species, from insects to reptiles and mammals."
The scientists who found the sequence controlling heart development named it "Tinman".
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 20, 2009 - 04:08pm PT
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I've been mulling over some of the things that have been said in this thread about "truth" and how we, as humans, "know" things.
What does it mean to know? What is truth?
A few thousand years ago a boy asked his father, "what makes things fall?". The father said, "it doesn't matter what makes them fall, they just do, now get back to work".
A student asked Aristotle why things fall and Artistotle said, "they fall because they are heavy, the heavier they are the faster they fall". The student was satisfied and said, "now I see!".
One of Galileo's students aked him the same question and he said, "good think you asked. I did some experiments and I found that all objects fall and that the rate at which they fall is independent of their mass". The student walked away feeling enlightened.
A student of Isaac Newton asked him why things fall and he said, "all objects have mass and the force acting between them is called "gravity". The force is proportional to product of their masses times a constant and inversely propotional to the square of the distance between them". The student said, "yes, now I understand".
One of Albert Einstein's students asked him about gravity and was told, "all massive objects warp the space around them". After Einstein's death the student went on to confirm some of his mentor's predictions, including that light should be bent by suitably massive objects like stars.
A student of one of today's particle physicists approached his mentor about gravity and was told that gravitons are exchanged between all massive objects and they carry the force between them. The student asked if they have been observed but was told, "no, but we hope to deduce their existence through gravitational waves and in future experiments in the Large Hadron Collider."
Each student was told the truth, as it existed at the time. The truth was a model of reality. It was the very best model of reality that existed at the time the question was asked. The model evolved and changed over time.
Each model was able to explain more and more observations than the one that came before it. Each was was a truth.
How does WB define truth? Truth is what God says it is.
How do we know what God says? It is written in the Holy Book.
Who wrote down the words in the Holy Book? They were written by prophets who were divinely guided. The words they wrote were God's words.
How do we know they weren't making this stuff up? Stop asking questions and believe what I am telling you!
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 20, 2009 - 04:27pm PT
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JStan - here's the trouble: the scientific method, as successful as it is for both its practitioners and its beneficiaries, is simply unappealing to the vast majority of the population.
Most folks want capital "T" Truth as adults, in the same way they understood it as children. Sadly, science is worse than useless for these people. Not only worthless because science doesn't operate like that, but worse than worthless because it denies the validity of that method of belief - a method which is at the root of how these people get through each and every day!
Attempting to change that for adults is not only impossible, but I doubt that you or I would like the results. Would you want to see a successful adult lose all of their coping mechanisms? Think of Lynne, or of Werner. Think of what they do on a daily basis.
You will have to answer the question yourself, in your own way. But for me, no thanks - I have absolutely no interest in trying to convince them to think differently. In my opinion it's counterproductive at best, at worst - destructive!
GO
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 20, 2009 - 04:31pm PT
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Brian H - nice post.
GO
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 20, 2009 - 05:03pm PT
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The risk in letting everyone believe whatever batsh#t-crazy voodoo they want comes when those believers start fighting over their beliefs, or decide that nonbelievers must be converted at any cost. Most modern religions, with one notable exception, have left behind most of the bloodthirsty zeal of their earlier incarnations, but whenever dogmas start forcing themselves into public policy, the risk of theocratic fascism can't be discounted. Biblical creationists trying to force their hodgepodge apologetics into the teaching of science was the origin of this thread. The rest is a matter of personal choice.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 05:17pm PT
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GO:
You may be right or you may be wrong.
We have people on the site who have said they went from believing as children to not believing at some point.
Questions for those who have made this transition.
How did it come to pass?
How did it affect you?
As you made the transition were you at any time unable to cope?
If it were possible to forcibly remove a believer's belief they might have difficulty coping. Not sure if that is possible. but have not seen evidence here of that.
I believe Mr. Sawyer it was commented on his inability to cope when he was forced to follow church commands. Comments about that kind of coping problem we have heard from quite a number of people.
Like I said, you may be right or you may be wrong. But it is certainly a subject that can be examined.
EDIT:
I have already recounted the single incident when I was asked if I wanted to go to church a second time. As I said, I told my mom I didn't have time. No pressure was ever applied to me and I have not the slightest doubt I would have offered considerable pushback. If I had been forced, I would have tried to take homework to do while in church. Something with which I could properly use the time.
My mother grew up in poverty with the threat of hunger, and she raised herself up out of that state. She was a doer and knew she had the ability to make her own way even at the time women were first getting the right to vote. She needed no support group. If I had wanted to go to church, I could have gone.
I didn't.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2009 - 05:21pm PT
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How old was I? Age five. No regrets, feel great about the decision then,
and right to this day.
How did it happen? Preponderance of evidence available as a first grader.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 05:24pm PT
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How did it come to pass?
I was only a mild believer. My Dad was a non-believer, and we had many discussions about the Big Bang, evolution, etc. It made a lot more sense to me than creationism and the evidence was overwhelming.
How did it affect you?
It's a lot easier to be a Christian in this society than to be an atheist. Otherwise, it bothered me about as much as coming to grips with the fact the Easter Bunny wasn't real.
As you made the transition were you at any time unable to cope?
Nope, life goes on. The truth will set you free!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 20, 2009 - 05:50pm PT
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I was never a believer despite the typical Irish catholicism and schools; I knew it was all just a ridiculous charade from the start. The logic behind that view crystalized when I was 11 as some nun kept jabbering on about how "we're made in god's image" and it dawned on me - 'if I'm made in god's image, then god must be a lot like me'. I then realized 'WTF? I wouldn't setup or run the world this way. I mean why good and evil? Why not good and better? Why not apple juice and orange juice instead of apple juice and hemlock juice?', and concluded god really isn't like me and I must not be like him after all. And if the "we're made in god's image" line was bullsh#t, so must the whole crock of it must be as well.
Pretty much right after that it occured to me that when you looked at the history of nations, war, and god's role, it was clear that god was simply a manifestation and projection of man's will, desire, ego, and the ordination of manipulative power rooted in and spawned of fear. I instantly started ditching church and my father finally told me that's fine so long as I found out who said the mass so I'd get it right when I lied to my mother.
I find the whole schtick and instrument of religion repugnant, vile, and frightening almost beyond words. It's clear evidence we have never conquered the fear of the unknown and darkness lingering just outside the cave entrance and likely never will. That the scariest thing to most people is unanswered questions - individuals and societies fear unanswered and unanswerable questions so much they'll invent and / or believe almost any outlandish pap or hallucination to plug those voids.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 20, 2009 - 06:05pm PT
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I've been mulling over some of the things that have been said in this thread about "truth" and how we, as humans, "know" things.
This is the study of epistemology, which has been going on for 2,000 years, and had to do with knowing "things," and as such, involves an evolving set of facts and figures that show us where and how we fit into this world.
I think it's fair to say that this kind of knowing is hooked to our evolving brains.
Now, how does the screaming blue jack-0-lantern and tooth ferry fit into this paradigm, and how might this "knowing" increase our prowess to inveigle girls?
JL
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 07:08pm PT
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Epistemology or the study of knowledge that events are not made necessary by causes, but that everything is motivated by its own purpose.
That means there is no chance. There is no question of chance.
Without God nothing can exist.
And the scientist speculates where monkey come from, where man comes from.
Where bone come from.
He does not know. Only speculates where everything comes from by blind faith in the faulty machine the faulty scientist made.
The blind faith scientist puts his faith in his faulty data and presents it as fact.
Rascals ......
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 20, 2009 - 07:38pm PT
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Oct 20, 2009 - 07:39pm PT
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Been catching up on this thread. Some good stuff, despite having to follow WB's tiresome "everybody but me is a mental speculator" schtick (don't you, yourself get tired of writing this crap, Werner?).
I just want to point out one thing - the very tight coupling of science and reason. It may take a scientist or at least a scientific education to really understand well some specific aspect of our world like evolution, but it only takes reason to accept the findings of science and incorporate then into a consistent world view. Above all, evolution is eminently reasonable. It explains a bunch of disparate observations like why we can classify animals at all, why animals and plants are distributed as they are, how to interpret fossils with respect to age of the earth, etc. It fits in well with other observations we should accept from science like the age of the earth being on the order of 5 million years old. When these very reasonable ideas are accepted into a consistent world view, this is reason, To me, religious teachings and the so-called sacred texts are an affront to reason, not science per se.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 20, 2009 - 07:40pm PT
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jstan
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 07:40pm PT
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An interesting text on brain evolution:
http://faculty.ed.uiuc.edu/g-cziko/wm/05.html
Another less interesting site suggests the volume of our brain has not increased significantly in the last 1.7 million years. And our brain weight is about 1.5 kg. while that of the blue whale is about 6kg. The whale clearly has a serious weight problem. As our obesity becomes worse here we will probably begin, like the hippo, to begin to transition back into a water creature. But in our case because of the Big Mac and the Coca Cola company.
A really striking new thing I discovered is that well prior to birth the human brain is without surface folding and is more like that of the “lower” animals. Interesting. More phyllogeny recapitulates ontogeny? Seems unlikely.
Edit:
You are fast cintune. I deleted the question and decided to look into it a little. I posted the wiki stuff too. You can write 100 tons of books on religion but you can get the broadest outlines into your head from a few pages.
As a complement to your discussion of the Ediacaran radiation:
Years ago before the synchrotron had been invented I had read about studies of these sea creatures allowing seafloor deposits of this age to be dated reliably. The elucidation of their structure, as you note, is a major contribution.
So there is not a misperception, I have read recent reports( last 10 years) saying people are coming to believe rudimentary life existed on earth within the first 500 million years. That is hardly time for the rock to cool down after the Mars-like body collision. (A report on solar system research mentions that people, I think for the Mars observer, believes that it takes millions of years for temperatures caused by massive body collisions to dissipate.)
We are on the cusp of really incredible discoveries. Thirty years from now much more will be understood.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 20, 2009 - 07:51pm PT
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I have proof there is God, because if He didn't create us perfect there could be no sin because we never knew anything else, so there could be no wrong? But if we ever feel guilty for anything it proves there is sin and that we need forgiveness!
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Oct 20, 2009 - 07:54pm PT
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But if we ever feel guilty for anything it proves there is sin and that we need forgiveness!
Impeccable logic. Why didn't I think of that?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 07:58pm PT
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The wiki religion timeline is pure mental speculations.
More guesses
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 20, 2009 - 08:02pm PT
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Breaking news:
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/10/first-complex-animals/
A series of fossils unearthed in southwestern China has revealed the origins of complex life in unprecedented detail, and pushed its beginning back by at least 40 million years.
The specimens come from the Doushantuo formation, a layer of sediments deposited about 590 million years ago, just before the Ediacaran period’s primordial fauna gave way to the kaleidoscopically complex creatures of the Cambrian explosion.
During the Ediacaran, even the most structurally complicated animals had flat bodies with simple symmetry, like living quilts or mattresses. It was only during the Cambrian that animals developed what’s known as bilateral symmetry — a distinct front and back, top and bottom.
The Doushantuo fossils date to the cusp of this transition, and are so finely preserved that scientists can distinguish the structures of individual cells. The latest fossils, described Monday in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, aren’t even fully formed animals, but embryos.
Using synchrotron radiation microtomography — a microscopy technique that combines thousands of of X-rays taken from different angles — researchers reconstructed the embryos in three-dimensional detail. They found that the embryos were bilaterally symmetrical, and were organized so differently that they belonged to two distinct taxonomic groups. For those groups to be so different, bilateral symmetry must have been around for a while. Some scientists have suspected as much, but without such solid evidence.
“These bilaterians had already diverged into distantly related groups at least 40 million years before the Cambrian radiation,” wrote the researchers. “The last common ancestor of the bilaterians lived much earlier than is usually thought.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 08:11pm PT
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Still wasting time with their bones.
Evolution from animal to man is incomplete because the theory does not present the reverse condition, namely evolution from man to animal.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 20, 2009 - 08:14pm PT
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[insert Locker joke here]
[and here]
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jstan
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 08:15pm PT
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_religion
The above summary article is limited to the Abrahamic, Indian, Dharmic, and Taoistic religions of the last 3000 years or so. Ancient prehistoric and even the Helenistic polytheisms are missing. As is the secret polytheism recently discovered to exist in Rome after it had been driven underground by the dominant theism.
Ignorant as I am, the above was excellent reading. You look at the part of the earth occupied by followers of the Abrahamic religions and because these peoples all follow the same precepts there ought to be no war there. The Indian religions might be thought to be at war with us( that is the union of the Christian and Muslim tribes) but how to explain Mahatma Gandhi whose ideas came right out of the Abrahamic texts. There really should not be any serious disagreement.
How to explain the discord that we see? This is a huge question.
If we take the teachings of the existing religions seriously we cannot explain what we see in the world.
There seems an immense disconnect.
If the texts are not being followed, why not?
If they are not being followed what are the texts actually being followed?
If no texts are being followed, why is anyone discussing religion?
Their actual teachings are being ignored on the ground.
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scarcollector
climber
CO
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Oct 20, 2009 - 08:19pm PT
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God bless those Ediacaran bilaterians, and bless all of their little bilaterian children, or tadpoles, or whatever kind of young'uns they had.
Werner - I can't find God without chance. Without chance don't we have predestination? Predetermination?
Why try?
Photons don't seem predetermined though. Einstein couldn't figure it out; neither has anyone else. They just seem random.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 20, 2009 - 08:22pm PT
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Naah, Werner will rescue you, physically if not spiritually and philosophically. Using skills, equipment and experience very firmly founded in the material world.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 20, 2009 - 08:28pm PT
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"...while that of the blue whale is about 6kg."
Dolphins and many whales have had essentially the same brain for 30 million years, we've had ours for about 50,000 years and in the ball park of this size for 500,000 years. In the past I've worked on cetacean language analysis and have always suspected a lot of their brain power was devoted to sophisticated signal processing. They were and are perfectly adapted for their environment save for there defenselessness in the face of mankind. Left to their own devices the world would be essentially unchanged for the next 30 million years if it were not for our species having evolved so rapidly. Given our rapacious impact on the planet I suspect an equalibrium correction in the overall ecosphere will return the cetaceans to a more peaceful existence sooner rather than later despite pleas to any man's god.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 08:41pm PT
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Gobee:
Hate to tell you but we are not perfect. Look at my earlier post about our ear structure.
Let me ask a question. Suppose you saw something that really looks to be true but which causes you to doubt other things you "believe." Would you still be able to cope?
Or would you just say screw everything and go climbing?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 20, 2009 - 09:05pm PT
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We were expelled from Eden, hence sin!
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 20, 2009 - 09:08pm PT
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Largo,
First, yes I was drinking when I wrote last night.
Second, you misquoted me.
This is what you said that I was mocking:
That of a spiritual nature does not "exist" because it (for lack of another word) is unborn. The eternal never "came into existence" at some point in space and time, nor will "it" ever vanish. The spiritual simply IS, that's why all wisdom traditions relate spirituality to being, not thinking.
This is what I wrote:
To paraphrase,
That of a flying blue jack-o'lantern-headed, Christmas-eve, tooth-fairy bunny nature does not "exist" because it (for lack of another word) is unborn. The flying blue jack-o'lantern-headed, Christmas-eve, tooth-fairy bunny never "came into existence" at some point in space and time, nor will "it" ever vanish. The flying blue jack-o'lantern-headed, Christmas-eve, tooth-fairy bunny simply IS, that's why all wisdom traditions relate flying blue jack-o'lantern-headed, Christmas-eve, tooth-fairy bunnys to being, not thinking.
Absolute nonsense.
This is how you "quoted" me:
Wanda wrote: "To paraphrase,
That of a flying blue jack-o'lantern-headed, Christmas-eve, tooth-fairy bunny nature does not "exist" because it (for lack of another word) is unborn. The flying blue jack-o'lantern-headed, Christmas-eve, tooth-fairy bunny never "came into existence" at some point in space and time, nor will "it" ever vanish. The Of course none of this makes "sense," because "sense" is limited to "things" we can measure, contrast, and work over and adorn with our evolved minds and senses. That's why trying to investigate spirituality through standard thought processes will reveal nothing at all. simply IS, that's why all wisdom traditions relate flying blue jack-o'lantern-headed, Christmas-eve, tooth-fairy bunnys to being, not thinking.
Absolute nonsense."
You say the spiritual simply IS. You explain that "It" doesn't exist per se, but "it" is related to being, but John "being" has to do with existence or ISness. Doesn't this seem a bit circular?
You say "it" doesn't make "sense" because sense can only relate to material things, but then what you seem to be left with is imaginary non-"sense" that "IS" because we say it is.
Spiritual feelings, like feelings of love, have a biochemical basis that probably had some evolutionary benefits. These feelings have been described as "more real, than real." But that doesn't mean they are part of some vast, eternal meta-universal force.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2009 - 09:12pm PT
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No Gobee, you have your biblical facts wrong.
First Adam and Eve "sinned" by eating fruit from the Tree Of Knowledge,
and THEN, because this really pissed god off, she threw them out of the garden.
Lesson: Humans should never eat from the tree of knowledge, instead
they should stay blissfully ignorant.
Gobee, you of all people, should know this story.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 09:14pm PT
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God is not a she.
Purusa = male
God is always male.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 20, 2009 - 09:15pm PT
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And you know this how?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 09:18pm PT
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You are the rascal scientist , Wanda
Get to work rascal. Go to your laboratory and discover and quit wasting time.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 20, 2009 - 09:24pm PT
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You say the spiritual simply IS. You explain that "It" doesn't exist per se, but "it" is related to being, but John "being" has to do with existence or ISness. Doesn't this seem a bit circular?
You say it doesn't make "sense" because sense can only relate to material things, but then what you seem to be left with is imaginary non-"sense" that "IS" because we say it is.
Spiritual feelings, like feelings of love, have a biochemical basis that probably had some evolutionary benefits. These feelings have been described as "more real, than real." But that doesn't mean they are part of some vast, eternal meta-universal force.
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You'll just tie your mind in knots trying to reason this all out like that. Some folks understood this 3,000 years ago and in pursuit of direct spiritual awareness, went in the opposite direction = meditation. Nothing wrong with thought - it's invaluable for living in the world.
Now for the hundredth time, I'm NOT refering to a constelation of "spiritual feelings," sensations, thoughts, beliefs, or any other content from our evolved, biological mind, including consciousnes itself.
Lastly, in saying that the ALL is related to being, I mean that being is the worm hole in, as opposed to thinking. You have to get quiet and settle into simply being here for any shift to take place. And in my tradition (Soto Zen) if you run into "some vast, eternal meta-universal force," you immediately detach from that and return to no-thing/no-mind.
JL
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2009 - 09:29pm PT
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God would have to be female, because she is detail orientated and stays focused.
After all, which came first, god or the chick?
Locker, don't answer this question.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2009 - 09:35pm PT
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God got pissed, forced Adam and Eve into hard labor, and gave Eve great
pain in childbirth, all because they ate some fruit. Nice move, god.
Genesis 3 introduces the Serpent, "slier than every beast of the field." The serpent tempts the woman to eat from the tree of knowledge, telling her that it will not lead to death; she succumbs, and gives the fruit to the man, who eats also, "and the eyes of the two of them were opened." Aware now of their nakedness, they make coverings of fig leaves, and hide from the sight of God. God, seeing that they have broken his command by eating from the tree, curses them with hard labor and with pain in childbirth, and banishes them from his garden, setting a cherub at the gate to bar their way to the Tree of Life, "lest he put out his hand ... and eat, and live forever."
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 20, 2009 - 09:35pm PT
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Sumeru.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 09:36pm PT
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Think we have a battle of poets here.
Largo to my unstructured mind when I read your comments I get the feeling you are stretching to take the real measurable world and define some sort of non-material extension to it.
That's great. That's how advances are made. By stretching.
But to simply imply this based upon some biochemical reactions taking place in a few litres out of total space comprising many trillions of trillions of parsecs?
Got to flesh it out better for us.
PS: Anybody seen anything more exciting that what is happening here?
Really.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 20, 2009 - 09:38pm PT
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Cragman, we share a lineage with elephants, yes... we do look like them (some of us more than others, perhaps, but that's just a detail)
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 20, 2009 - 09:42pm PT
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All living things are related. We are all cousins.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2009 - 10:03pm PT
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"...a living being" (Genesis 2:7) - God breathes into the man's nostrils and he becomes nefesh hayya. The earlier translation of this phrase as "living soul" is now recognised as incorrect: "nefesh" signifies something like the English word "being", in the sense of a corporeal body capable of life; the concept of a "soul" in our sense did not exist in Hebrew thought until around the 2nd century BC, when the idea of a bodily resurrection gained popularity.[3]
Too bad for the humans on earth before some 2000 years ago or so when
god breathed a soul into some nostrils.
Depends on your birthday whether you get a shot at an afterlife.
See why even children come to the conclusion this is an incredible CROCK?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 20, 2009 - 10:28pm PT
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"First Adam and Eve "sinned" by eating fruit from the Tree Of Knowledge,
and THEN, because this really pissed god off, she threw them out of the garden.
Lesson: Humans should never eat from the tree of knowledge, instead
they should stay blissfully ignorant."
Well that's because of are Great Grandparents times x to the 10 power, i.e., Adam & Eve.
We should do what God wants us to do because it's always right and best.
Adam & Eve messed up because they did what God said not to.
But with forgiveness through Jesus, we can start to do what God wants with purpose!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2009 - 10:57pm PT
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God tells us to beat up our children or else they might be "spoiled".
"Spare the rod and spoil the child". From the bible so god said it.
Straight from the lips of god, Gobee, and because god tells you to beat
your children, then you better be doing it or you are breaking god's law
and he will punish you like he did Adam and Eve for eating some fruit.
God really gets off on threatening and then actually inflicting physical
violence on people, the bible is full of it. The bible is god's WORD.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2009 - 11:02pm PT
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WHY did it take god six entire days to create the world?
Surely she could have blinked like in Bewitched and created it that fast?
And why did god "rest" on the seventh day?
Was he that tired, so exhausted that he needed to take a nap?
Too bad the men who wrote the bible and made all this childish stuff up
did not bother to be more consistent in what they wrote.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 20, 2009 - 11:06pm PT
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Largo to my unstructured mind when I read your comments I get the feeling you are stretching to take the real measurable world and define some sort of non-material extension to it.
That's great. That's how advances are made. By stretching.
But to simply imply this based upon some biochemical reactions taking place in a few litres out of total space comprising many trillions of trillions of parsecs?
Got to flesh it out better for us.
PS: Anybody seen anything more exciting that what is happening here?
Really.
--
Now understand that the basic nature and function of the evaluating mind is to divide, compare, contrast, and so forth. ANYTHING that lies outside of those functions will naturally seem like a "stretch" to the evaluating mind, which "won't buy" that there is anything other than itself and its purview. Put differently, the ego can only recognize itself and it's needs and wants, so God, to most people, will get "fleshed out" accordingly.
Now look at this closely: What are we really going after here, if not some definable, graqspable thing that will satisfy the evaluating mind. If it's not a thing, that it's nothing, zero, nada. If there is a "God," what value is He/She/It if we cannot KNOW Him much as we know a #2 Camalot or a chalk bag.
People keep hounding me to properly define the ALL while all the while we pretty much know that those asking the questions almost certainly betting against themselvs and have an answer already in their minds: That whatever it is I'm driving at is the "product" of the evolved mind, maybe some genetic residue that served some evolutionary purpose. But "it" is a by-product of matter, right?
The reason we do this is that, as mentioned, the evolved/evaluating mind can only imagine itself, or projections/extensions of itself. The evaluating mind will ALWAYS consider the ALL as an extension of itself, and will grapple to picture some "other" place or non-material stuff or secret God realm.
The amazing thing is that the mind already IS awakened, but it doesn't know as much. That's what the "practice" is all about, discovering who we are beyond ego and mental constructs.
JL
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 20, 2009 - 11:42pm PT
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so we're against proselytizing now? seems that there has been plenty of that from the faithful here, why not from the minority science folk?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 20, 2009 - 11:55pm PT
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I'm still trying to figure out if posting to this thread is "in the interest of science"
There is no proof or disproof of God, or gods, or any other religious belief possible. By construction, religions hold a consistent and constant world view that is about "Truth."
While there is no "proof" in science, there is disproof, so ideas in science can be tested and can fail the test. Science as such changes and our understanding improves. Science is about knowing, not about "Truth." The science of 1000 years ago, of 500 years ago, of 100 years ago, of 10 years ago, of even last year may actually be different than the science of today. We know more now than we did then...
...you may not care to know, especially if it is counter to your particular "Truth." It is unlikely that anything that appears in this thread matters.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 21, 2009 - 12:05am PT
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I said "you may not" which is very different from "you do not"
certainly you understand the difference, and the irony of your post...
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 21, 2009 - 12:08am PT
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"jstan. We have people on the sight that went from believing as children to not believing. Questions for those who have made this transition. How did it come to pass? How did it affect you? As you made the transition were you at any time unable to cope."
A few years back, I was sitting home contemplating the upcoming surgery on my left knee and decided to flick on the TV to catch the cable news at the top of the hour.
It was on the Court TV channel and I was about to punch the button to the news, when a middle aged man a bout my age, being interviewed for a special 'Investigative Reports' makes the statement,"they use to look into my eyes as if I had somehow willingly helped, right before he killed them".
He was talking about his father, and how he and his sisters, believed his father was a serial killer that singled out 8 year old boys. And they were attempting to prove it).
Well that first statement,"they looked into my eyes as if I had something to do with it" stopped me cold, as I flashed back to a time long ago, right after I turned eight years-old (May 1957).
We were living in a rural upstate New York town, Norwalk/Norfork, in an old farm house renovated into a duplex, my mother, father. sister, brother and me on one side, about 15 kids and 4 adults on the other. My best friend lived up over the hill and down the road on a real farm.
Every Saturday afternoon, like clock work, I would take off down the road and up over the hill to visit my friend. A farm was an exciting place to visit at eight years old.
Well this one afternoon,I was on the way over to my friends farm, when a man that was known in the area suddenly appeared, with two young children and a lady.
I had only met him on about three or four occasions near our house, when he seemingly appeared out of the blue, waded his way through the gaggle of children and singling me out would with a few brief words, make me feel special, and then within a few minutes be gone.
So, when he invited me to go along with them, for a hike, that afternoon I happily accepted.(I never would have if it was him alone I believe, but under those circumstances, with two other kids and there mother being with him, my guard was down).
Well we hiked up this little hill into the woods and before we got thirty yards I new something was not right. The happy go lucky banter suddenly turned cold. We stopped in a little clearing with her blocking my way of escape from behind, him staring down at me with a hideous sneer on his face.
I don't recall all of what he said he was going to do to me, just the last part, about when they found my body they would think that I was run over by a train.
I remember turning to the boy who was on my right thinking how could you do this to me, I immediately realized that he was as much a victim to this as me. His eyes were flicking from side to side attempting to avoid contact and his own fear was evident.
I remember thinking, he's only six years old, he couldn't help me anyway.
The little girl was directly behind him, standing stiff as a board staring at his back.
I then pivoted a little more facing the lady and recall thinking, what? You are a mother, and your not going to do a thing to help me?
She had a look on her face, as if she was looking at no more than some pesky fly that had been caught in a spider web, fate sealed.
She let out what I can only describe as a sigh of disgust, and turned her head away. I took one step in a half hearted attempt to flee, but stopped cold.
I new it was hopeless, I had walked into a trap and there was no escaping it within the power of a barely eight year old boy with somebody straight from hell looming directly over him.
Let me back up here a little bit and let me explain the circumstances that led me to do what I did next, and I believe saved my life.
When I was in grammar school we were given the choice to go to any of our respective places of belief for one hour a week at the end of a school day or stay in class for secular activities (I believe the choice my family made saved my life).
Being Catholic my family opted for me to attend 'catechism' once a week were I learned about Jesus and the gospel stories. It may sound silly, but these stories and especially the one where He gather up the little children, and tells them how special they are, brought my young heart to believe that there was something special about this man.
I recall coming to the conclusion that there was no Santa Claus by age six, although I kept that belief to myself for several years, and went along with the program, for my little brother sake. But i had definitely not yet closed the door so to speak in regards to this Jesus.
So, as I stood there that fateful afternoon, with true evil incarnate looming one foot behind me, I called out with a plea to a Person that I will never forget.
I simply cried out "Jesus please help me" No words can describe what happened next. No words, that I have at least, can describe the supernatural peace that engulfed me at that moment.
And then I heard a voice, not audible, more like a strong thought, that said just walk over to that path, and follow it to the road, and that will take you to your house.
And so I did, as simple as that. I remember walking in past my mother, busy at the stove, and on into the living room were I lay ed on a couch and contemplated what to do next.
I stayed in that house for thirty days, never leaving once. I never told my family what had happened. I was protecting them.
You see I find this very difficult for me to describe and to share with anyone, and even more difficult for you to understand or believe.
You see there was something else there that day, you couldn't see it, but you could certainly feel it. It had a name, it was an angel of death.
I remember thinking one morning, after a particularly long night alone up in my room, as I glanced at the early morning rays of light shining through the corners of the windows. It could come right through there, just like those bands of light.
I understood what spirit was because I had met both good and evil that afternoon. Well, I knew I stayed indoors for thirty days because I recall the doctor telling my mother that they couldn't find anything wrong with me(I new they wouldn't) and her responding there must be, he has been home sick for thirty days.
The next day I remember standing by the screen door as the lady and kids that lived next door were piling into there car asking me if I would like to go along for a ride into town. I agreed. and I will never forget when she announced as we were barreling down the road that first we were going to stop at the man's mother's house.
That very same man, evil incarnate himself. He had been electrocuted at work and was recuperating at his mother's. The next thing I remember is stepping into her living room alone and closing the door behind me. He was sitting on one end of the couch, wrapped in bandages from head to foot, looking like a mummy, his mother on the other end.
Call it what you like, I call it faith, but I had no fear whatsoever. I walked up to him and stared into his deep black eyes for the longest time thinking this man is as good as dead, he will never be able to hurt me or anyone else ever again.
Nothing at all was said, and I have no idea what he must have been thinking. Suddenly his mother let out a long deep sigh, breaking my concentration and I spun around and left.
Not giving much thought to those events again until many years later. All I can say is this, I had no doubt who this Jesus was after that experience. He was God. Plain and simple.
I would go to church on Sunday's. Didn't know what the priest was talking about (it was all in Latin) or why we stood up and sat down over and over again. They had pictures of Jesus on the walls, a reminder of His Agony on the cross, and they seemed to know infinitely more than I new about God, so I went. And I never forgot the love that those precious little old nuns shared with me when I was just a little boy.
Well, all of that slowly changed. It had allot to do with something called racism and the general inequality of life, and lies taught as truths by the Catholic religion.
My father was a carpenter, born 1903 in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia,Canada.
As he grew older, the work became less frequent. We moved 18 times between Kindergarten and twelfth grade. So I was privileged to the experience of meeting allot of different people.
As I grew older my perception of how the world should be (since God made us all, I could not come to grips with the fact, that He could have allowed these things to exist, and my expectations of things, and view of Him as being all wise and all powerful began to crumble).
Although I never lost my belief of Jesus as being God So, I did lose considerable trus and I came to a definite crossroads at 18 years old. By then the only time I used His name was in conjunction with the word damn, or something worse.
Just keep in mind that, at that point I had never read a word of the bible, the only knowledge I had was from the Catholic Church.
I recall slipping out of my bedroom window in the middle of the night when I was in high school because I was so filled with rage at God and swearing, because He allowed racism to exist and other issues, that if I saw His face when I died I would spit in it.
So as I grew older I grew further from Him, blaming every thing that what was wrong with the world on Him. Why did He create a world with so much heart and chaos.
The one issue and the one moment that initiated that turning was when I was 12 years old.
We had moved Sand Diego,Ca. when I was 9yrs and from 9-12 spent many a afternoon in a library that was down the street. And came to love this two little old librarians who were very kind to me. They were white I might add.
The elementary school I attended was pretty evenly divided. Between the races, no majority, but primarily black, white, Hispanic.
I remember one after noon one of my best friends, who was coming home with me for the first time. We were on our way to little league practice. And invited him, and at first he refused, I insisted and reluctantly agreed.
He sat on the couch and my mother brought him cookies and milk. I changed my cloths, grabbed my bat and glove and, gulped down some milk and cookies and we headed out for practice.
The next day during recesses and lunch break, all these little black kids(kindergarten,1st graders) were coming over and tugging on the back of my shirt and saying, "Steve Knight said we can come over to your house anytime we want"!! Well I didn't have a clue what was going on.
Until 2yrs later when Steve,two other friends who were also black, after school one day stopped at that library.
I just want to make it clear that that in my mind at that racism could not exist. My fourth/six grade teacher is probably the man that has had the biggest impact on my life outside my father.
His name is Mr. Cain!
Mr. Cain was a black man!
I, and most every kid I new cherished Mr. Cain.
He had a big influence on my life.
This was 1958-1961. Of course I heard people talking about it and saw what was happening in the south on TV. But I new it would all blow over soon and the south was far away.
The Jesus I new would,t let something like that last for long.
Well, back to the four of us outside the library.
We stopped at the library because I had insisted on it. I Wanted show them a book I had been reading, big picture book. They refused to go in.
I persisted and eventually won out. I'll never forget the looks on those two old librarians faces as the four of us came through the door. me in front and my three friends behind me. With their hands behind their backs, and their heads down.
It was a look of hate. Those two women who I so much admired had degraded my three best friends in such a cruel, callus, shameful way. That we just turned around and walked out. They were not welcome there.
These were ladies that I assured my friends were the kindest woman I new.
I remember as they got on their bikes we all had our heads bowed by then. Me from shame. Irecall Steve simply saying "we're going home now John"!
Well needless to say I was devastated and heartbroken.
The four of us like all kids talked about what we going to be when we grew up!! We had dreams, it all came crashing down that day!
When I was thirteen we moved to Magna, Utah.
There was a Ute Reservation just west of town and I became friends with a boy the same age of myself that was from the reservation. He would tell me how the Mormon's looked at them as dog's That was the word he used. Said they told Him he would never be able to go to heaven. He was Catholic'
Well one Saturday a friend (Mormon) had invited me over to his house. We first went an visited another kid from our Jr.High School. I remember my friend as Telling me that this kid was a pagan. And rambling on about this Mormon beliefs of this and that. Definitely looked down on him'
Well he leaves and we are walking balk to his place and he makes the statement "at least he's not a catholic, their the devils..." so at that point a said " I am a Catholic". Well I have never seen such an 180 turn of affections in all my life. Cursing and spitting and dog this, and how they, Mormons were not allowed to have devils on their property.
Rural Utah was more than90% Mormon then outside the reservations so when I re turned to school I got a taste of what it would be like to be the only black kid in an all white school in the South at that time.
We only stayed there for a few months thank God!
We moved back to Cali 1965, my first year of High School, I was happy to have Steve Knight from my youth attending my school. Steve always was allot better baseball player than I.
Steve played center field. He was expected to get a scholar ship for college. Steve was a happy man.
Steve's mother was proud of him. He didn't a father. Had always lived home alone with his mother.
Steve was the kindest kid I ever new never fought, would walk away instead.
Smiled and laughed allot I made him laugh, that made me feel good.
One day I was shocked to here that Steve and another white kid had gotten into a fight. At first Steve wouldn't fight, then they said the white kid (the school was 95% white) called Steve's mother a bad name. Steve lost.
They were both sent home.
The last class of the day that Steven had walked the four miles home and died on his front porch waiting for his mother.
They said the cause of death was walking pneumonia!!!!!!!
Walking pneumonia? I sincerely doubt that!
He was beet and kicked to death by this vicious racist white kid! Plain and simple!
I have other stories about racism, maybe I will include them later.
So by the time I was 18f I had faced a lot of turmoil so to speak.
And had sort of put Jesus on a back shelf. He came into my life at 8, and I new he was God. But I couldn't understand why he had made a world like this!!
I remember when a teacher once asked the class what they thought of church.
I parrot-ted an answer that I had some disc jockey on the radio
"People go to church to get shot in the arm, for the same reason junkie's do! It makes them feel good"!
Of course the only church I had ever been to was a Catholic one. And they told me if I ever went into any other one I would go to hell!
But at that point new one thing I would never go back to a catholic one.
And I did know that Jesus was God but I didn't know were I stood with Jesus
I had taken His name in vain time and again' Lost faith in going to the priest and telling them my 'sins'. One time it would be five hour father two hail Marys. The next time twenty hail Mary's, ten hour fathers, and five act of contrition's. And I had only done half the'sins'.
Well fortunately I ran into this Christian girl with whom I spoke to for about half and hour. And didn't a thing about what happened at 8yrs old just asked her about some of the things I had done and said since then.
She just kept saying God loves you and will forgive you of every thing.
That was her whole message, God loves you and will forgive you of anything.
She gave me a "Four spiritual Laws" tract and I went home and read it. I read it, and believed what it said.
I said a simple prayer asking Him to forgive me of my sins, for I had many.
And to come into my heart and take over my life!
He came flooding in. Taking this incredible burden that had been building, off of my shoulders and an indescribable peace and love into my heart.
I hope this sheds some light on some of your questions.
Please consider this, Christianity is not a religion, it is a relationship.
Thank-you for taking the time to get this far.
PEACE AND LOVE!!! TripL7.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 21, 2009 - 12:22am PT
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Seems like TripL7 has some enter/return issues.
Ed H: so we're against proselytizing now? seems that there has been plenty of that from the faithful here, why not from the minority science folk? If any of the local scientists threatens to strike me down with a real or metaphorical bolt of lightning, I swear to ... that I'll listen and be good.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 21, 2009 - 12:23am PT
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Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 01:07am PT
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Bewildered by the three modes of material nature, the scientist of the twentieth century calculates the beginning and end of the universe in his own way.
The velocities of air and light are taken into consideration by the material scientist, but he has no information of the velocity of the mind and intelligence.
The soul is hundreds of thousands of times finer and more powerful than intelligence. Thus we can only imagine the velocity of the soul.
Bewildered by duality, they drown in the ocean of niscience.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 21, 2009 - 01:26am PT
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Thanks Mighty!!! We learn something new everyday!!
Hey!! Honest!!
PEACE!!! TripL7
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 21, 2009 - 01:53am PT
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I miss you all......each and every one of yo out there. I enjoy this thought provoking thread and each of your posts. I barely skimmed the posts tonight, it's late and I've been gone again out of town and TOMORROW I actually get to climb at JTree. Leaving super early from here, but I will be back in the real world of ST on Thursday or Friday. God willing of course. Love and Peace on a Sliver of a Moon Night. :D lynnie
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jstan
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 01:53am PT
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777:
Thank you for your comment. I know it was hard for you to write it.
I asked those questions because GO, a person whose opinion I value had cautioned me as to how I was discussing religion. He said, if you will, “John, you know not what you do.” Your experience suggests GO was right and it is up to me to discover how I shall let this affect me. It is a decision.
Perhaps I should tell a story also. When nine years old I was given the job of preparing the fields for planting. One evening after school I was pulling the springtooth drag up too steep a hill and the front of the tractor came up so fast I knew I had two to three seconds at most. I sensed what to do in time and hit the clutch. I hit it in time and the front dropped back down. A little more and the tractor would have rolled onto me.
What I took away is that it can come at any time and when it does you will not have much time to think. Ever since I have tried to look ahead. You have to be ready.
The other story concerns a time in my twenties when I did not look ahead. On a July day in Yosemite Joe and I were climbing Sentinal. Since it was so hot and we wanted to finish quickly we wore T shirts, shorts and carried nothing else. A thousand feet up we met heavy snow driven by high winds. We either kept moving on the way down or we would freeze. At the end of the first rappel I found a single old self drilling bolt. The only alternative would have been to pendulum over to an inside corner that would very likely have not taken a stopper, the only nuts we had. If I had tried to back up the bolt with a nut in the corner we might face a pull down problem. If so we would freeze at the end of the next rappel. And Joe was freezing even as I was thinking. When both of us were hanging on that bolt I had to face the fact I had made the decision for Joe as well as for myself. It was a tough one. The bolt held.
Each day we learn lessons to be applied during all the subsequent days. But there are never any guarantees. I don’t know what I should say 777.
In 1960 I did drive three days between Syracuse NY, where I lived to get to a school taught by Seumas MacNeil to be held on Cape Breton. When I finally got there the young lady told me Seumas had been delayed on his trip from Scotland and would be a week late. When I asked what there was to do in the meantime, she said Cape Breton offered ocean swimming. I, of course, asked what the ocean temperature was. With absolutely no expression on her face she said, “43 degrees.”
777, if you were an ocean swimmer while on Cape Breton, I seriously doubt there is anything on earth that could stop you.
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Oct 21, 2009 - 02:09am PT
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Ed,
I truly enjoy science, especially evolution, and the explanation it provides for the organization and phenomena that surrounds us. Also, at least, I know that god exists since I can see so many manifestations of it/her/him/them. god is a part of quite possibly every human society. Perhaps ironically, the existence of so many diverse and sometimes conflicting gods makes me deny the existence of God.
What came before nothing, and will I experience anything after I die? I can't say, and I think that there are many more practical human problems to solve. Then again, pure science has led to some amazingly beneficial things. Also, I greatly admire the people who are working on the questions. Stephen Hawking's explanation of why deja vu can't exist comes to mind. I wish I could reiterate it.
Maybe "the" belief is simply my nature, our nature. My final tally.
god? a qualified yes or no, depending...
creationism? no, but there certainly are some amazing stories, and I value the understanding that most every group of people has taken a shot in the dark to explain it.
edit: Some groups have more trained participants working to find the answers than others. Ideally, seekers from all groups should be allowed to enroll and thrive. And like you said, the answers may change!!!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 02:16am PT
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Ed Hartouni -- "It is unlikely that anything that appears in this thread matters."
Everything in this thread matters. There was a conscious reason for posting for whatever reason the poster had.
Everything has a conscious purpose in life.
And they said there is no such thing as consciousness, only chance, chaos, and pure random.
No intelligent design. All thoughts are just random babel then.
Their intelligence has been taken away by this such stupid logic.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 21, 2009 - 03:38am PT
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Werner-
Thanks for referring to me as a dog gnawing on a bone! Although the teaching says that we can only become enlightened in a human body, many dogs I know are at a far higher state of spiritual development that a large portion of the human race, so for me it is not necessarily an insult.
However, I would like to point out that the consequences of your argument against materiality are all too evident in Nepal and India with their attendant poverty and illiteracy. If one examines who benefits from this backwardness, it is of course the Brahmin priestly caste who profits most. I say this of course, as someone who knows and loves the place (3 years in a Hindu village in Nepal and 12 trips to India).
Meanwhile, a number of modern Hindu teachers such as Aurobindo, Vivekenanda, Yogananda and Sai Baba have pointed out that both east and west need a better balance between spirituality and materiality.
Humans could meantime learn a lot from the dogs about loyalty and cheerfulness. Of course Hindus recognize this is the festival of Kukur Tihar where dogs are venerated.
Om namay kukur, I say.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 21, 2009 - 04:02am PT
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jstan!! Thanks for the insight and the interesting stories!!
I should have looked closer in regards to the context of your request,sorry.
Yes, it was hard to write. I only finished the first half of the story, but I think I will leave it at that for now. Except I should explain that the middle aged gentlemen at the beginning of the thread (investigating his father!!) was the six year old boy in my story. Amazing but true.
Sounds like your partner on Sentinel could be Joe Fitchen?? I also had a much similar epic on the Steck/Salathe' when I was in my twenty's. Partner was Dave Stutzeman. Early April, similar condition's bailed from near the top of the flying buttress. One 50m rope. Minimal gear. Ended up down climbing 50%. Got over to the right of the main route last part of the descent. One manky bolt, last rappel. I made the decision to retreat, he opted to continue on, Dave got the short straw. I remember him saying "you don't know what your getting yourself into!" He was right.
It' interesting you should mention the ocean swimming on 'Cape Breton'. Loved it. Even though I drowned when I was seven (summer '56') at the mouth of the Margaree River, Belle Cote'. Me and a bunch of kids patched up this old row boat we found at the shore. Got out about 50 yards, right over the deepest part the channel, boat starts taken in water, kids start jumping out one by one. Last kid looks at me and says "time to swim" I said "don't know how". I'll never forget the odd look he gave me just before he dove in. Don't remember much after that. Just seeing my older (13) cousin paddling like all get out in his little rowboat that he made himself. Sick as a dog for a whole week. By the way, family moved to Cali when I was 9 and promptly learned how to swim. Another big ocean that had lots of promise of adventure, learned to surf. Went out at Black's during the swell of the century, Dec. 1969. Thirty (30) foot faces. Another epic day. Dumbest thing I ever did in my life! Well there was the row boat and of course Sentinel.
Your a fascinating man John, nice meeting you here, God bless you. Sincerely, TripL7
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 21, 2009 - 04:25am PT
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Imagine that you have never learned a spoken language. What would you mean when you say "consciousness" in that case? You can not hear a voice telling you there is another moment coming.
jstan-
Interesting question. In fact there have been several cases of feral children, often raised (pleased note Werner) by dogs, who had no spoken language and if they were more than 5 years old, were never able to acquire it. Should we treat them as less than human or simply handicapped humans? I think the answer is obvious.
As for dogs, mine anticipate getting a treat or going for a walk when I use those words to them and they also know their individual names.The fact that they can anticipate the future though they do not use verbal language, probably indicates that like the apes, they do have a primitive verbal structure in their brains, just no vocal apparatus to express it. Whales and dolphins meanwhile, seem a bit more advanced along these lines. Verbal consciousness would seem to be a continuum then.
Anthropologists have long struggled with how to measure intelligence in preliterate people. One way perhaps to test feral children's non verbal consciousness is through art and music, modes of testing which have had some success with preliterates.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 21, 2009 - 04:52am PT
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Ed-
It seems to me your recent explanations have been particularly clear and cogent. Along those lines, I found the fall issue of Discover yesterday which is devoted to the human brain. In it I learned where in the U.S. the centers of brain research are, which I hope to make use of when I retire since some of them are looking to do experiments with experienced meditators.
One thing I learned that I did not know before, is that the brain, probably the pineal gland, produces small amounts of a natural halucinogenic, DMT. This discovery certainly explained at least one category of my own internal experiences. The serotonin circuit in the brain explains another, so bit by bit, we are discovering the biological bases of spiritual experiences. I think that much will be known in our lifetimes.
What no one can explain yet, is why these experiences seem to only occur when one is concentrated on a spiritual subject or engaged with a spiritual discipline? The way to test this I suppose is for someone to develop a completely secular method of mental concentration and discipline to see if the same results can be obtained?
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 21, 2009 - 07:09am PT
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jstan!!! I took a closer look at what GO had suggested to you in regards to coping mechanisms.
I just want to let you know that at that fork in the road I was at (the bitterness was at that point directed at God). I was simply hardening my heart to the fact that God met up to all of MY expectations.
At 8 years old He, without a shadow of a doubt, showed me He existed. That's about as far as my knowledge of Him went for a number of years. And that was the problem, I formed an image of God the way I felt He should be. And I greatly abbreviated and ended my testimony at that point.
So just one question. What is that one thing you are going to have to decide?? Give up on trying to convince people like me, Lynne, and Werner that there is no God because it would be counter productive?? If you could prove such, than we would simply be like you or DR.F or any of the other agnostics/atheist that is posting here. But maybe I am missing something, implied, or otherwise regarding what GO was suggesting.
Let me suggest this. Simply ask Him if, and I am stressing the word if. Simply say I don't know if you exist or not, but If You exist I do ask You to come into my heart(life), and mean it. Plain and simple!! Don,t you agree if Jesus is God and there is a heaven and a hell, eternal i might add. That you would be a fool if you don't allow him that much wiggle room so to speak? Believe me he will respect the request. Because that, my friend, will be considered faith. Because you will be expecting an answer if He truly exist, to come into your life and change it for the better. The God that made the sun, the moon and the stars, is fully capable of revealing Himself to you if you ask Him. PEACE.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 21, 2009 - 08:15am PT
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TripL7-
The flaw I see with your request is that it is framed in a Christian context. I have plenty of Animist, Buddhist, Hindu, and a few Jewish friends, who have had conversion experiences having nothing to do with Jesus or Christianity. I think jstan or anyone else should make the search however seems appropriate to them - or not.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 21, 2009 - 08:37am PT
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"by eating from The Tree of Knowledge"
Norton, look again!!!
It is called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil!!!
This tree was about, knowing about, good and evil.
Not about gaining general knowledge or wisdom.
Prior from eating from this tree, there was no knowledge of evil, because it didn't exist in there lives up to that point. They had knowledge of good. Everything was good!! God was good!! All the knowledge needed!! But God didn't want robots/puppets, he wanted their voluntary love and trust. Not so much unlike us. So He made one simple request.
The sin was that they wanted to be like God!! That's the lie that Satan told them. If they ate from the tree they surely would not die!! They died spiritually and began the insidious process of physical death. Said God was lying to them and just didn't want them to become like Him. Just like Satan, same sin Satan got booted out of Heaven for. He said, told all the angels, that he was going to be like the Most High. Sad but true.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Oct 21, 2009 - 08:53am PT
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the mystery sure is enveloping huh.
no hints to its cause lie in the bible. though the creators of the bible prolly had good intentions, those have been wrecked by the successors who've wrapped their ignorant bliss around its message.
wars, killings and a general hard-heartedness has ensued.
the dark corner of the mystery which is a tiny bit enlightening, might keep itself tidy in a wee peyote seed.
limping along in a constant state of mediocre,
nordic.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 21, 2009 - 09:02am PT
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HE-BE BE BE BE BE!
I'm glad I got that out!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 21, 2009 - 09:03am PT
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Jan!! Jesus said He is the only way!! There is only one way to the Father, that is through Me. I am sure that you are already aware of that.
He was either a liar, a lunatic, a heretic or telling the truth!! I can only ask you to ask Jesus the same thing I suggested jstan to ask Him. If You really do exist and are the one and only true God, please come into my Heart(life).
Thank you for your concern. Sincerely, TripL7.
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donald perry
Trad climber
kearny, NJ
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Oct 21, 2009 - 09:52am PT
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Dr. F wrote: "Donny P. pure lying propaganda, your links If you only knew the lengths the Christians go to lie about evolution, its truly pathetic."
These "Lies" are not made by Christians, that was not a Christian video. Christianly had nothing to do with that argument that you threw out on that basis.
You have no inclination to deal with data and would rather deal with bias ad hominem arguments even when they are not available.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Oct 21, 2009 - 10:45am PT
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reality has been quite shifty lately.
i have to stay drunk to keep my balance.
cheers to hay zues.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 21, 2009 - 11:02am PT
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GO believes that attempting to change the minds of believers to be more scientific would be potentially harmful
A correction: I think that successfully changing their minds would be potentially harmful. More relevant though - attempting to change their minds through any logical arguments is, by the very nature of faith and logic, a ridiculous endeavor.
Look at the stories of how it came to pass that some people changed their viewpoint about religion. In every case, they already had the world view that allowed the internal processing to be able to occur, and then they put two and two together on their own. I think any kind of forcing from outside would do no more than create roadblocks of defensiveness that would delay any internal processes that might lead to those kinds of moments.
I guess the point you're focusing on, though, is the most minor of my points: I do think that for those people who need Answers with a capital "A", a world without faith offers nothing. So not only would they adamantly reject such a worldview as useless and unappealing, but even if you could change their view (say, though brainwashing methods) - would you? Not I. People know what they need much better than I do.
Now when those world views branch out to affect others, I have no difficulty standing up for what I believe is right. But for personal matters, as others have said here - whatever gets you through the night.
GO
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 12:52pm PT
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Tough sh'it Dr F.
If you can't find it in your lab it's not true.
Go back to your lab and save us all from our selves.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 12:55pm PT
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Dr F -- "so my version is the non-narrow minded version"
And still you get a tooth ache ....
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Oct 21, 2009 - 01:03pm PT
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folks think they own the wind just cause it come out both ends of 'em.
the wind holds no secrets, really its just a fluid responding to pressures.
it's hopeful though, to interject romantic whispers into this medium.
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 21, 2009 - 01:08pm PT
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Werner said,
Everything in this thread matters. There was a conscious reason for posting for whatever reason the poster had.
Everything has a conscious purpose in life.
And they said there is no such thing as consciousness, only chance, chaos, and pure random.
No intelligent design. All thoughts are just random babel then.
Their intelligence has been taken away by this such stupid logic.
This statement speaks to the intent of the original poster, which was to refute "creationism". WB believes that everything that exists was intelligenly designed by a creator. He doesn't recognize the existence of natural processes.
That's where reason and science really have to draw a line in the sand. In order for science to work, we must assume that there is an underlying mechanism for everything we see in the world. To understand means to discover the underlying mechanism that determines the structure of the earth and the organisms that live on it.
To think otherwise is to leave everything to an arbitrary God to determine. If God creates everything according to his whim, how are we able to make predictions about our world? How can we make models of reality? God could do anything he felt like, could He not?
Werner believes that lack of intelligent design means that there is a lack of purpose and a randomness in the world. I say that the exact opposite is true. When there are rules there is not randomness, and that is not to say that chance is not a part of the world (far from it).
There IS purpose in life and that purpose is to reproduce. The purpose of all life is to propagate genetic material into the future. Now I know that sounds pretty stark to someone who believes that purpose is to serve God, but that's simply the way it is, and why we exist.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 01:27pm PT
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777:
I was an eastern climber, being from NY so I was climbing with Joe Kelsey. And it was the Steck Salathe. We rapped off the buttress and only the anchor for the second rappel was a problem. When we got down Chuck Pratt had a pot of hot soup heating up on the tailgate of his squareback.
Swimming off Cape Breton. That is very severe!
I think GO’s comments are very much to the point so this is what I have decided. I will be careful not to proselytize for atheism. A person’s mode of life is their choice. While it is probably wrong for organizations to proselytize for a religion my following them in that wrong does not make a right.
I will continue freely to express myself however. I have never seen any evidence for the existence of either god or of a soul and I will not refrain from saying exactly that.
I will also note one of the saddest things on earth is how we can have religions which say very good and very similar things in their codes but we don’t see any effect on the ease with which people go to war, some of them even religious wars. It is as though something else entirely trumps the desire not to treat others in the ways we would not chose ourselves to be treated.
If what I have said or done here has mistreated others, I apologize.
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 21, 2009 - 01:33pm PT
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I seek not to intrude on your belief system or to dissuade you from it. I believe that your belief can guide you and comfort you in your life.
What I object to is when these belief systems attempt to intrude into the domain of science. That is what Creationism is all about. It's an attempt to hijack science to lend support to a particular belief system.
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 21, 2009 - 01:43pm PT
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I stand by every word that I wrote. I will not back down.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 21, 2009 - 01:48pm PT
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Nor- "the dark corner of the mystery which is a tiny bit enlightening, might keep itself tidy in a wee peyote seed"
A wee bit of faith, the size of a mustard seed (the smallest of all seeds) will bring the mystery to light!
Nor- "wars, killings and a general hard-heartedness has ensued"
Splendid observation Nor!!
For there will be wars and rumors of war....the love of many will grow cold Mathew. 24:6-12 (it has been all foretold).
Nor-"no hints to its cause lie in the bible"
One thing is certain. The bible is not the cause!!
Norwegian, you are far from being labeled mediocre!
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 21, 2009 - 01:56pm PT
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Let's let Werner speak for himself. Let him say that he does not believe that God doesn't play a role in natural processes, or not. His statements led me to conclude that that is exactly what he believes.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 02:01pm PT
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I don't believe in anything.
I take only absolute facts.
God does play a role in natural processes.
The natural process is an extension of his external energy.
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 21, 2009 - 02:03pm PT
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Werner, please tell me the definition of an absolute fact.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 21, 2009 - 02:50pm PT
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 03:00pm PT
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Advanced civilizations millions of years ago cremated the dead bodies.
No bones.
Animals don't cremate.
The modern scientists still have not dug through all the layers of the earth.
Their theories are totally defective .....
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 03:01pm PT
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Wow, that's persuasive.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 21, 2009 - 03:05pm PT
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Was that a spelling error, or one of punctuation, Werner? Last line.
Except for the word totally, I'm with you, either way, to an extent.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 03:17pm PT
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Ok jaygro misspelled. Fixed it.
Doesn't matter anyways.
It's all just a blitz kreig assault onto the stuck in the mud folks who try always try and attribute and align their every stupid post against Jesus Christ and Christianity.
These same very people who have attacked with their asinine photos cartoons etc. are now coming out of the woodwork to defend their so called "God" which they call now "science".
The whole thing is just plain juvenile and stupid.
To end:
We consequently see that one philosopher may disagree with another philosopher, and one scientist may put forward a theory contradicting the theory of another scientist. All of this is due to their working on the mental platform without a standard of knowledge.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 03:25pm PT
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Dr F go back to your laboratory and mix some chemicals and create life.
Get to work, your time is short ...
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 21, 2009 - 03:45pm PT
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Jstan-I heartily welcome yours and GO's proselytising for atheism and fully enjoy hearing your personnel beliefs. I wouldn't have it any other way!! We both must keep our doors open to each others mind, heart and soul! I simply define soul as who we are. We are each unique beings.
I fully agree with all you have said!! Blame much of it on religion? Yes!! What did Jesus have to say about religion? White washed hypocrites. Who were His friends? Beggars and thieves and prostitutes and the blind and homeless and a handful of hard working fishermen. Not to much of a show from the clergy there. Four Gospels. About love and forgiveness and hope. There is no doubt to the fact that he lived and died a brutal death for that very message.
He prophesied of the pathetic state the churches that go by His name would be in before His return. 1.The loveless church 2. The compromising church. 3. The corrupt church. 4. The dead church. 5.The lukewarm church. ("I will spit you out of my mouth") 6. The faithful church 7. The persecuted church.(Revelations 2:1-4:11). Two out of seven past the test, barely. These are real churches here on earth today, that call themselves 'Christian'. He knows who they are.
You are most surely right. It is a choice. You can't buy your way in, work your way in, grandfather your way in. And as I simply attempted to explain, it is about a relationship not a religion.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 21, 2009 - 03:50pm PT
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I trust that I will learn more about God's ways through pure unadulterated nature than through the words of man with all his agendas.
Every motion of the constantly shifting bodies in the world, is timed to the occasion of some definite, foreordered end. The flowers blossom in obedience to the same law that marks the course of constellations. Nature is one, and to me the greatest delight of observation and study is to discover new unities in this all-embracing and eternal harmony.
Men, with only a book of knowledge have seized upon evolution as an escape from the idea of a GOD. "Evolution!" - a wonderful, mouth-filling word. Just say 'evolution' and you have explained every phenomenon of Nature, and explained away GOD. It sounds big and wise. Evolution, they say, brought the earth through its glacial periods, caused the snow blanket to recede, and the flower carpet to follow it, raised the forests of the world, developed animal life from the jelly-fish to the thinking man.
But what caused evolution? There they stick. To my mind, it is inconceivable that a plan that has worked out the development of beauty, that has made every microscopic particle of matter perform its function in harmony with every other in the universe - that such a plan is the blind product of an unthinking abstraction. No; somewhere, before evolution was, was an Intelligence.
You may call that Intelligence what you please; I cannot see why so many people object to call it GOD. -John Muir
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 21, 2009 - 04:13pm PT
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JStan - yep, you got it.
Norwegian - damn, dude, you can write! Two words from you say more than I can in a half dozen posts. Of course, it's also possible that you simply have more profound ideas than I do. Either way, kudos!
GO
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 21, 2009 - 04:24pm PT
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DISCLAIMER: THIS IS A SCIENCE EXPLANATION, IT ISN'T MEANT TO INFORM YOU ABOUT HOW YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO LIVE. IT IS MOSTLY ABOUT MATTER, AND STAYS STRICTLY PHYSICAL. IT MAKES NO COMMENT ON OTHER PHILOSOPHICAL SYSTEMS. THE CONCLUSIONS REACHED APPLYING THIS TECHNIQUE TO SET TIME SCALES MAY BE AT VARIANCE WITH SOME BELIEF SYSTEMS. THE EXPLAINER IS NOT RESPONSIBLE TO RECONCILE THIS DESCRIPTION OF A PHYSICAL PHENOMENA WITH THOSE BELIEF SYSTEMS WHICH MAY HAVE DIFFICULTY INCORPORATING INFORMATION DERIVED FROM TECHNIQUES UTILIZING THIS PHENOMENA.
Radioisotope dating is used, accurately, to set the time scales of a large number of events in the universe. Different radioisotopes provide different time scales.
Carbon dating looks at the amount of the isotope 14C (carbon nuclei with 6 protons and 8 neutrons) this is an unstable nucleus with a 5730 year half life. That means that starting with some amount of 14C, you have half of it after 5730 years... the stuff that disappears decays to Nitrogen 14 by a beta decay.
14C is made by cosmic ray interactions, and is taken up by plants as they metabolize, so the ratio of 14C to 12C and 13C (both stable) remain constant through the life of the plant. Once the plant dies, the metabolism stops and the 14C decays away. Measuring the ratio of the carbon isotopes in the sample is the method by which a time is associated with that sample.
The accuracy of the date depends on the ability to establish the isotopic ratios, as well as the initial abundance of the carbon isotopes.
Other radioistopes have longer lifetimes and are used to date things back to the putative beginning of the universe.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 21, 2009 - 04:32pm PT
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Dr.F- "there was no adam and eve, and the whole story about God and evil and a apple"
Where in Genesis does it say anything about an apple? It is simply described as fruit!!
PEACE!!
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 21, 2009 - 04:37pm PT
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Ed - interesting, I'd always wondered how the isotope got there in the first place. Thanks for that. And I love your disclaimer! Very funny!
what is this book 1999 you speak of?
It's something navblk has been obsessing about since the beginning of the thread. I think he may have dreamed it up on a bad acid trip. It seems to contain the answers to all topics in some sort of obscure and unknowable way.
GO
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 21, 2009 - 05:10pm PT
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Fat- "I don't believe in the bibles version of good or evil either, I am evil of my own free will"
That is exactly what the bible says about good and evil. You are held accountable for your own choices. The devil can't make you do anything! He can make a suggestion (thought) which is sometimes the case. More often then not it simply is a result of our own selfish desire. Its our choice (free will). (By the way, Satan is not omnipresent, he can only be in one place at a time. One third of the angels decided to tag along with him, grass greener on the other side of the hill sorta thing I suppose. They do his dirty work so to speak). BTW, I make evil choices, but I prefer to avoid them, they have consequences. No one is perfect here on earth!!
Satan didn't force Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he just suggested that if they did, they would be like God.
They bought the lie...
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 21, 2009 - 05:38pm PT
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Dr F- About the apple... just keeping it real.
Earlier it was Norton and the "Tree of Knowledge" explained that it was simply designated as the "tree of knowledge of good and evil"
Norton was inferring that God was with holding the ability to gain general knowledge/wisdom/learning etc.(in case Adam and Eve wanted to move up in life, get a better job down the road type of knowledge. In which case I would tend to agree IE. inflation!!!) He wasn't. It was a specific type of knowledge, see my earlier post.
Just keeping it real...but personally I think it could of been a Washington apple on account of that's were I was born (Seattle) and Washington apples are bad ass. Stole a couple bitd. PEACE!!!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 21, 2009 - 05:55pm PT
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Dr.F- You seem to assume allot of things. For instance there is absolutely nothing organized about me. Don't belong to an organization, church, religion, system etc. I just happen to have a relationship/friend who just so happened to create the universe!!! I know this irritates you but I would be lying to you if I told you anything contrary to this. And I respect you, and love Him to much to do that.
Couldn't organize myself out of a wet paper bag...unless it was filled with fresh Washington apples.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Oct 21, 2009 - 06:19pm PT
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You know Dr. F, even Satan himself and his Fallen Angels know there is a God and know who the Son of God is and tremble in his presence. Read the Bible. They know. Many stories in the Bible and the book of Enoch say so.
Go talk to and interview a Satanist into the Occult. They believe and worship Satan himself! Yet, they know there is a God and they know there is a Son of God. They know the existance of their enemy. They just happened to pick the wrong side. The losing side. Several incredible stories of people being rescued and coming to know God out of the occult practices have said so, and have published their tragic stories that ultimately resulted in them coming to personally know God and leaving the Occult World behind. Which is a very sick and scary world . . .
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 21, 2009 - 06:29pm PT
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Dr.F-" Do you talk to God?"
Prayer. That is how I talk to God. Jesus gave us a good example/instruction on how to pray with the "Our Father whom art in Heaven"...should you ever desire to do so. But more often I just say whatever happens to be on my heart, such as "Dear Lord please bless Dr.F and his family today in a very special way, I ask this in Jesus name amen".
"do you not believe that evolution is a fact, and the creation story a myth?"
I believe that evolution is a theory. Period. No less no more.
I believe the creation story is true. !00%
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 21, 2009 - 06:33pm PT
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Klimmer, of course Satanists believe in God. Their whole schtick is being reprobates. They are deluded too.
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Bad Climber
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 06:36pm PT
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Of course the Satanists are as whacked as any fundamentalist Christians--just possibly more dangerous. Maybe. Maybe not.
The Garden of Eden thing functions as a great metaphor, however, for all sorts of things. Actually, it contains the archtypal element of the "one forbidden thing" (think Pandora's box, too), so it stands for the general idea of temptation that we all face and the possible negative cosequences should be yield to it. Literal truth? Hogwash. Poetic truth to the condition of man and woman? Absolutely.
Interestingly, there is ANOTHER tree in the garden that God wanted to really keep the hungry wench and her flunky from gnawing on: The tree of eternal life. You got good and evil, and you got eterneral life? Then we're talking God-like! So the system is that we come to be like God by passing throught the "tree" of the crucifix. In fact, some Christian imagery depicts the crucifix hanging in a tree. Pretty cool symmetry there.
The problem for me in all of this is when folks like Klimmer take it AS LITERAL TRUTH, which is pattenly obsurd.
I like the way Joseph Campbell put it (paraphrased): He who reads a poem for its historical and scientific knowledge is missing the point.
Religious texts are POETRY, and should be read as such, usually after a few glasses of wine and a healthy platter of scepticism.
Anyone read Twain's story about Adam and Eve? Freakin' classic.
BAd
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Oct 21, 2009 - 06:55pm PT
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All I can say after so much circular arguements and good thoughtful discussions and no one has moved from their original positions (perhaps someone has been moved spiritually and we don't know about it?). . . is . . . well . . .
We will all ultimately know one day.
Whether you think so or not -- you will.
Amen. And Amen.
By the way, there is Theistic Evolution. I happen to believe it was a combination of both. Creation and Evolution. God doesn't leave evidence behind to confound us. The geological record is very readable and absolute. Science has to move toward God, and those who believe in God also have to move toward Science. However, believing in Science as powerful as a tool that it is, will not save you. Only Jesus Christ can do that.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 21, 2009 - 07:54pm PT
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We are Gods dream, matter is fact, fact of the matter!
But this is backwords, we became real and God became are dream!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 09:02pm PT
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Dr F --Sorry to break the news, but evolution is not just a theory
It is a Natural LAW, just like the law of gravity
Yes that is absolutely true.
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 09:07pm PT
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It is a Natural LAW, just like the law of gravity
You want to explain gravity to me? Where does it come from? What "causes" gravity?
Gracias,
gm
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 09:10pm PT
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Locker,
Quantumfy your answer.
Best,
gm
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 21, 2009 - 09:44pm PT
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I sort of lost track of this because of work, but I just read this from Craig: "you are just trying to explain something that you think is there, since it should be there, all the ancients, and spiritual people say its there. But maybe it isn't there."
It isn't there, Craig, because there's no "it." And no matter how many times I say it, and no matter how, you doods still come back with a version of, ". . . you are just trying to explain something that you THINK is there..." How plainly can I say it: I'm NOT talking about a THOUGHT or a mental construct, nor yet a feeling.
Later Craig said: "But after it all, I can say I was duped by it, what I may have felt was God, was not. And now, I have to question everyone else that say they feel God, could they be duped as well."
I'd have to totally agree if your experience of "God" was hooked to a feeling.
If God is neither a thought or a feeling, what is left?
----------
Moving on, the study of gravity is particularly interesting, especially the new Tensor-vector-scalar gravity, developed by Jacob Bekenstein.
Not surprisingly, the only way he can make the new theory (or wrinkle on a new theory) work is by introducing "an arbitrary dimensionless function."
The math is way out there but this stuff is super fascinating.
Attempts to isolate gravity as a "thing" are pretty awkward.
JL
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dfrost7
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 09:56pm PT
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Hey Gene, happy to see you!
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 10:01pm PT
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Gravity is like evolution, we can observe it, and know that it exists,
We can try to explain it, and it turns out to be alot more complex than it seems...
Kinda like that ole G-thing.
gm
EDIT: Dfrost7,
What's up, Lady? Hope all is good.
gm
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dfrost7
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 10:15pm PT
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It's gooood! I fell in the parking lot on my way out of work and hit my knee so hard I almost passed out and puked (didn't do either)! I knew I was fine when one of our admin girls helped me up and I told her she had really cute shoes on. Anyway, halfway home my other knee started to sting - two for one. It's good though.
Sitting here letting it ice and checking out all the new posts.
LS
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 21, 2009 - 10:22pm PT
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Gravity is the bending of spacetime. God created it to make rock climbing much more challenging.
Hopefully Ed will contribute a more knowledgable answer that us layman can also understand.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 21, 2009 - 10:38pm PT
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ISBN = International Standard Book Number.
ISSN = International Standard Serial Number. Journals and magazines.
Nablk's posts are quite bizarre.
And no, obviously no one is moving from their original positions, and probably won't, but it's interesting reading anyway. We believe what we want to believe. If we could get at the reasons for those wants, then maybe some minds might be changed, but this is a campfire, not group therapy or a holy-roller revival, so that's unlikely, thankfully.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 21, 2009 - 10:44pm PT
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I miss Gobee's copying and pasting sections from the bible here.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 10:49pm PT
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Cintune go home and swallow your pride and your lame ass veiled attempt at moderator.
This is a fuking fight to the end.
We will all kick ass here.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 21, 2009 - 11:01pm PT
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Now we see the violence inherent in the system.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 11:02pm PT
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Our language is shifting under our feet and we do not help ourselves if we fail to pay attention.
Common usage has now stripped "belief" of its former meaning having nothing to do with religious faith. You use the word and what you are saying depends upon the listener.
Saying the Law of Gravity, IMO has suffered the same fate. To someone of the religious persuasion the Law of Gravity is an ultimate truth that has been passed down from someone. Who we don't know. But we somehow know it is "ultimate."
All around us in the real physical world there exist phenomena. Things fall when you drop them and the sun comes up in the morning. Unimportant stuff like that. Those wishing to have an understanding of these things, they do after all provide us bread, water, and shelter each day, study them and pose models which do things like allow us to predict when the sun will actually rise tomorrow. Now those models get better as people study things longer and harder so we can predict the natural phenomena more accurately. And do things like set our watches automatically from a satellite. Just routine uninteresting stuff. Gravity is one of the phenomena that has been given a lot of study especially since the turn of the century. 1900 that is. It is getting better and actually is coming to have all manner of interesting wrinkles on it. Check back in in 2050 to see how it is going. We may even be able to detect gravitational waves coming to us from hugely massive stars that exploded the year Ardi was born.
Gravity is not an ultimate truth someone wrote in a book somewhere. It is not a "Law" as the word is now commonly used. Gravity is the reason Christ hung the way he did on the cross. As we use the word today, "Laws" do not involve things like providing the food we eat or the water we drink. No, they deal with something else. What, I personally don't know.
I think we need to be very interested in where our next drink of water is coming from. So I don't study Laws.
On the other hand those who are very interested in the Laws, surely, should read them.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 11:09pm PT
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I knew you'd take bait.
At least Dr F is an atheist. He stands his ground and doesn't waver all over the place with a hodge podge potpourri of religion.
I'll take him and the rest of the people any day over some guy who has no real foundation/stand.
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dfrost7
climber
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Oct 21, 2009 - 11:15pm PT
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Locker - I realize you were going for rude. I used to sort of like your posts. That was pretty ... I don't know ... I guess that's what you're going for.
In all these posts, I don't read anything from the believers, who trouble you so, that is what I can call mean and offensive. What's the point, what are you guys doing?
I think if you want to have a discussion on a topic, when you're out of an answer, just say, "I don't know if God exists or not". To just start slugging because you feel you may need to consider God, Jesus, well, just open your intelligent mind. Some of this sounds like High School stuff.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 21, 2009 - 11:35pm PT
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Religion is a hodgepodge potpourri. Some people like the smell, others not so much.
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dfrost7
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 12:18am PT
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You take a leap of faith committing to the belief that God doesn't exist. I think many people who protest so loudly, this belief, actually believe in the God they fight with. Your fight is not with us. We didn't invent Him. He exists with or without us. This is fact.
Do you love your wife, your child, your dog? Pull it out, put it on the table and prove it. You love by faith. You already believe in the unseen.
If you lost your sight, you would have to believe everything. This is physical blindness. Take your sight, you will be quickly relying on faith.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 22, 2009 - 12:29am PT
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Blessed Are the Forgiven
A Maskil of David.
Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven,
whose sin is covered.
Blessed is the man against whom the Lord counts no iniquity,
and in whose spirit there is no deceit.
For when I kept silent, my bones wasted away
through my groaning all day long.
For day and night your hand was heavy upon me;
my strength was dried up as by the heat of summer. Selah
I acknowledged my sin to you,
and I did not cover my iniquity;
I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the Lord,”
and you forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah
Therefore let everyone who is godly
offer prayer to you at a time when you may be found;
surely in the rush of great waters,
they shall not reach him.
You are a hiding place for me;
you preserve me from trouble;
you surround me with shouts of deliverance. Selah
I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go;
I will counsel you with my eye upon you.
Be not like a horse or a mule, without understanding,
which must be curbed with bit and bridle,
or it will not stay near you.
Many are the sorrows of the wicked,
but steadfast love surrounds the one who trusts in the Lord.
Be glad in the Lord, and rejoice, O righteous,
and shout for joy, all you upright in heart!
Edit; dfrost7, Grand Slam, nothing like a good piece of Hickory!!
Hope your knees feel better soon!
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Oct 22, 2009 - 12:58am PT
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Ed,
RAD!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 22, 2009 - 01:04am PT
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and what is universal about: "religion, art, love, beauty, philosophy?" all those things you mention are pretty much limited to a person's or persons' beliefs...
... science is not just an opinion or a belief or a feeling.
There is the sense that definition of say, a commutative ring is the same throughout the universe. We know that the same physics holds throughout... and chemistry...
my guess is that we will find out that biology also holds... soon.
What is beauty? what is love? I agree, we can't decide...
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jstan
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 01:13am PT
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Ed:
You expect a test of the commutative ring for biology soon? In the solar system or outside of it?
When I first took a course in astronomy the big thing was doppler shifts.
All this in my lifetime!
Would be an awful time to die. New answers nearly every day.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 22, 2009 - 01:15am PT
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no doubt, skip, but what you consider to be beautiful, the art that inspires you, why you love, the religion you believe in
all those things are in you
we can agree on what is beautiful and what is not?
we can say who's art is absolutely inspiring?
true love, what is it, how does it happen, specifically? between whom?
religion, how many have there been, which is the right one?
philosophy, many profound ideas, how do we decide?
in the end, we decide for ourselves.
But science isn't like that... nature decides. (You didn't think Doug was that important, did you?!)
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 22, 2009 - 01:16am PT
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Craig wrote: "I, and all athiests would quickly give up our opinion that there is no God, if any substancial evidence was to appear that proved there is a god, or Gods."
Meaning you'll believe in God the moment "He" rides into town on a pony. You might be waiting a while . . .
Now how about the notion that photos have no mass - or at any rate, no rest mass.
Or that gravity creates mass - that's a totally cutting edge and controversial one.
Or the real doosey from Hawkings and others that there was no "first moment" of time - http://www.everythingforever.com/hawking.htm
JL
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 22, 2009 - 01:18am PT
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as we are now able to "see" planets around stars, we will be able to measure light spectrum, and get an idea of the elemental components of the atmosphere.
Life is indicated by a non-equilibrium abundance of certain elements... we'll be able to see their respiration by the light reflected/emitted by their atmosphere.
exciting times.
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Oct 22, 2009 - 01:29am PT
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I may be incorrect. These statements are my memory of anecdotes from the popular media.
Music in all cultures is based largely on the range (octaves?)of the human voice.
There is a part of the brain that is stimulated when practicing deep meditation (Maybe emptiness?) Largo? It has been found that this area is related to happiness, and is more active in people that have practiced meditation.
Recently, scientists have proposed a "god" region of the brain.
http://www.livescience.com/culture/090309-brain-religion.html
I don't know whether these regions are exclusive, and I am probably falsely assuming that the "god" region is excited when people experience religious zeal. In contrast, it seems that there are practices which emphasize a grounded clarity. From my understanding, this belief system proposes that there is no god. It would be remarkable if science shows these brain regions are exclusive of each other, but common across groups of people.
After reading the link above, maybe it is more simply a question language, and where we "see" goodness extending from.
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donald perry
Trad climber
kearny, NJ
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Oct 22, 2009 - 01:35am PT
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One thing we all know is what is perfection, what is holiness. And someone has shown us that much, and of that man wishes to be blind as he seeks to hide from the presence of God as did Adam, this we do know. True love, true faith, true honesty, true goodness, true justice. One thing we do know is that we are sinners, we do know that much, God has shown us that much. There is no sound reasoning against that.
Being that is the case, that there is good and evil, men ought to serve true goodness and true love as a God regardless. But men love to follow their own ways and will naturally follow the evil, and what can be defined as Satan. Satan apposed God and seeks to usurp His authority, this is what man naturally does. I am speaking in absolutes here foremost.
We also know that we will all die soon, relatively speaking life is very short. But we like to forget that too. Unfortunatly there is no logical argument against that either. At that time men will give an account to God. Those who have chosen to reject and ignore the good and the light shown them, to follow the evil, will be excluded from the presence of God. And this will be done to them as they so wished, to spend the rest of eternity with the devil and his angels. And even in this God will be glorified, every knee will bow and every tongue should confess Jesus is Lord to the Glory of God. Those in the heavens above and those under the earth beneath. And that is just the way it is, was, and will be, all the arguing in the world can not change it.
Yet God has given his only begotten Son, that whomsoever should believe in Him should not perish but have true life, life with God for eternity. And this is something not earned by good works. It comes about through clinging to Christ in faith, in Christ’s atonement for our sin. I am speaking of that sin that we as men are all aware of, that we are all aware that we have from Adam. Or that sin that we have become willfully blind to.
I came to these conclusions by force through soloing Erect Direction in the Gunks back in September 1979. I did not make it and had to be rescued between cruxes. They are logical conclusions. You will find out they are true shortly. Whether you want to believe them now or later, that is up to you.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 22, 2009 - 01:39am PT
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we know that that is what you believe, Donald, and thanks for your concern...
"i'm the one that has to die
when it's time for me to die,
so let me live my life
the way i want to."
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 01:41am PT
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so let me live my life
the way i want to."
But have no independence. You are forced.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 22, 2009 - 01:43am PT
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what is independence, Werner?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 01:50am PT
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Free from birth, death, disease, and old age.
The soul is never contaminated by these four predominate factors in it's original condition.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 01:54am PT
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It has been seen that the prisoner who ultimately has not finished his term still after being released goes back to prison under his own terms to finish his real sentence.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 01:56am PT
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Werner:
Now I am curious. This essence of the person which has absolute freedom.
Is it also free from the sensation of drawing in a breath of cool clean fresh air?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 02:03am PT
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And they said there's no consciousness. Only chemicals and electricity.
This is what they told his daughter, and she looked at the strange men and smiled for she knew they were right in their mundane way ...
But they failed to see that she also loved him for who is and that he was full of life and honored death.
The mundane men were stern faced as the child soften their hearts with her smile and steady gaze that transcended beyond their dry __
__
fill in the blank
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 02:20am PT
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jstan -- "Is it also free from the sensation of drawing in a breath of cool clean fresh air?"
And in the next instant the sensation will be to draw in the putrid stench of industrialization.
The equipoised learn man will know they are both one and the same although two different.
acintya-bheda-abheda tattva; simultaneous oneness and difference
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 02:34am PT
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Dr.F. "has there ever been an intervention by God?"
YES!! He intervened in my life at the age of 8 years old as previously shared earlier in this post and many times since. Thank you.
And just for the record when was evolution deemed to no longer to be taught as a theory and declared a law of nature along side gravity in our fine schools here in the USA or anywhere else for that matter?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 22, 2009 - 02:38am PT
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Evolution is considered by biologists to be the fundamental principal of biology. Without evolution there is no modern biology.
This seems to have escaped the notice of those people who oppose the teaching of evolution because it is in conflict with their religious beliefs.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 02:54am PT
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Ed- the question i posed was when was it "considered to be the fundamental principal of biology" and no longer a "theory". And why didn't they declare it as such from the get go?
Evidently, all biologist are then 'fundamentalist' also!
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jstan
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 02:57am PT
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Ed:
Along those lines I recently ran into a DVD by Dawkins discussing Evolutionary Psychology with Prof. Bass. It was my first exposure. It certainly seems that groups of people developed selected behavior traits as a group. If so that means we finally have a definition for abnormal psychology.
Behavior traits or psychology is abnormal when it does not support survival of the group.
I am not describing it knowledgeably but this pretty clearly has huge implications.
777:
You are struggling with the words. You are giving the word "theory" an incorrect meaning.
A scientific theory is just one of those models about which I have been mumbling. As Ed has said a theory or model under active improvement will change and improve. We have no final immutable theories.
And when Ed says a model or theory is "fundamental" he means only that many of the other biological models all use the evolutionary model as one of their tools for reaching conclusions. They need the evolutionary model.
For instance in cancer research we need to know how it is that a normal cell can become cancerous. This happens because a mutation or improper duplication happens within the DNA. These mutations form one of the fundamental driving forces in evolution and over geologic time can cause huge effects among organisms. But on the shorter time scale damaging mutations can cause cancer and death of the individual.
It is not quite that simple as evidence is accumulating suggesting chemicals, such as lead, that we are putting into the environment are agents causing some unusual mutations. "Better living through chemistry" may not be turning out to be quite what we thought it.
Thanks to the birth of DNA sequencing technology one of the more interesting lines of study over the last decade involves looking at actual DNA sequences over time that have not been affected by abnormal agents. Under normal conditions they are able to quantify about how many DNA base pairs change in a period of time. Then they can sequence the DNA for two different animals, say, and estimate how many millions of years might have been required to produce that change. For instance this has been used to estimate how long it might take to change skin color.
Another really interesting idea involves the fact that many of the base pairs in DNA don't serve any obvious function. But it is beginning to look like their presence works to reduce the effects of damaging mutations. If this is true even their presence is nicely explained by Master Darwin's incredible genius.
These methods have a long way to go but the potential is fascinating.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 22, 2009 - 03:01am PT
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"why didn't they declare if from the get go?"
you seemed to have missed a lot of what we've been talking about in this thread regarding science. Even Darwin proposed that evolution had to be tested, and that if it's predictions were not found to be in agreement with observation, then it would not have been correct.
Had that happened, we wouldn't be talking about it now... they didn't know at the "get go." It was going to require a lot of scientific research.
When did this happen? I'm not sure, but certainly the understanding of the mechanism of genetics was the last major prediction to fall into place... perhaps a biologist could inform us on this point?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 22, 2009 - 03:09am PT
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Where is Stephen Jay Gould, when you need him?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 22, 2009 - 03:28am PT
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From the perspective of matter-energy, however, the universe maintains its boundaries in that it has a beginning and end at the big bang and big crunch. From the conceptual vantage point of humanity, one may conceive of the universe as beginning and ending, as having edges and boundaries, and a creator. But in imaginary time, the universe is eternity and eternity is the constant always of the universe. The universe has no beginning, no end and no creator; in imaginary time, the universe is Being.
Gettign back to my question: what is the fundamantal natrue of this "being?"
JL
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jstan
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 03:29am PT
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Jaybro.
Careful now or I will punctuate your equilibrium.
John:
Unfortunately in the last few years the really distant survey of, I believe Type II supernovae, have indicated the expansion of the universe is accelerating not decelerating. "Dark Energy" is being mumbled but there will be some hand waving for a few more years.
But it does appear there may never be a big crunch.
The universe may ultimately become thin and very lonely.
The best times of all are when there is a lot of hand waving. People tend to sit on the front edges
of their seats at the meetings.
I think one of the best science stories ever, involved some of Feynman's Sum of Histories diagrams. There was huge argument over what these particular diagrams meant until someone, (I'll just put in Weinberg's name) stood up and said, "No! No! This is what Feynman was trying to say."
Feynman was sitting right there beside him!
777:
You must have missed my post just upthread.
There is nothing higher than a theory. Theories just keep getting better and better.
There is no "absolute truth" allowing measurements to infinite precision.
Not in this world.
You work out a theory/model that is correct to a billionth of a centimeter. Next day someone has made a measurement to a precision of a trillionth of a centimeter and they want to know what's wrong with your model.
Hey. That's life in this world.
PS:
Not becoming full time climber was probably the best decision I ever made.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 03:42am PT
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Ed- I returned to college in the Spring of 1992 (after dropping out of SDSU many years ago) and pursued a degree in the sciences. Earned a B.S. degree in Occupational Therapy June 1995. I am now a practicing, licensed therapist ( OTR/L) and I am very thankful for the advances of science, for I see the out comes on a daily bases (not to disregard hard work and commitment by all those concerned, and faith and prayer). I had to take years of college chemistry, physics, geometry,biology, anatomy,psychology prior to being excepted into the program at SJSU in the fall of 1992. And once being excepted into this program 2.5yr of Neuroanatomy, neurophysiology, abnormal-psychology (many psych and human development classes) etc.,etc. all of which I found fascinating. But never do I recall evolution being declared anything more than a theory! No more no less. But then perhaps I was absent from class that day and subsequently missed that respective question on the following exam.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 03:59am PT
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Ed- "perhaps a biologist could inform us on this point?"
Yes! I concur! Let's leave it at that for now!!
Ed- "you seemed to have missed allot of what we have been talking about in this thread regarding science".
My sincere and humble apology in that regard as, I have only joined in this wonderful dialogue most recently. And I will respectively attempt to backtrack and review as much as time allows, but I felt compelled to join in on this very fine discussion and surly take all that is being discussed here very seriously.
PEACE!!!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 04:11am PT
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jstan- your a fascinating person as I attested to earlier and as you have once again confirmed.
Please excuse the slow response to these post for I type at about four words a minute and read and process what I read not much faster. Slow and deliberate, kinda like my ocean swimming!!!
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jstan
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 04:12am PT
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Killer thread eh?
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 04:24am PT
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jstan-"Killer thread eh"
I'll give an 'Amen' to that!!
jstan-"eh"
are you sure your not a 'Canuck'?
Seamus must have schooled you as to the finer points of making one!! eh?
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 04:26am PT
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jstan.
finer points of making a point is what I meant.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 04:32am PT
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No. Anders is teaching me Canadian.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 04:35am PT
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Excellent choice of teachers from what I have 'observed'.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 04:47am PT
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j-stan.
Attaining the classification of 'Mighty Hiker' and 'Mighty Ocean Swimmer' are highly regarded in the Canadian 'neck of the woods'!!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 05:10am PT
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jstan!
I was just folding things up and getting ready to call it a day, when something occurred to me! I was pondering the 'jstan' and wondering who you could be, and earlier you alluded to the 'John' and well... not meaning to embarrass or 'out you' so to speak... I'll ask you this way, do you regard the 'standard' of this fireside chat to be up to your 'stannard'?
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 05:50am PT
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jstan-
I have had a few moments to do a little bit of delving into things here and you no longer need to post a response to my last question to you.
I figured it out on my own. My humble apologies sir!!
I also have a better understanding of the word 'noob' since I certainly feel like one!!
If you would like me to, I will delete these last two post of mine? Or what the heck, leave them in place and let the world now what a 'dweeb' their dealing with here!!!
It' like this, TripL- slow typer, slow reader, slow at processing what he reads, slow at putting 2+2 together; the list goes on and on and on...be patient with me jstan...eh!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 08:09am PT
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Lovegasolene-"to give the pot a stir"
What stirs me is Christopher Hitchins misquoting and misrepresenting the meaning of the words of Jesus, and then calling it an absolutely absurd proposition!
Jesus did not say 'give no thought to tomorrow', he said "give no worry to tomorrow". He mentions worry and worrying six times in these ten verses that Mr. Hutchins is referring to (Matthew 6:25-34).
As we understand today, worrying causes stress, panic, mental breakdowns, general poor health, and leads to an earlier death, just to name a few.
So, in that respect, Jesus was giving sound advice, 2,000 years ago that is applicable today. Sounds just like the Jesus I know.
He was not saying "you should give no thought to tomorrow, no investment, no care for family" and so on to quote Mr. Hitchin.
On the contrary, for it is illustrated countless places in the bible, the result of such actions. For example... "How long will you slumber, O sluggard? When will you rise from your sleep? A little sleep a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep-so shall your poverty come on you like a prowler, and your need like an armed man." Proverbs 6:9-11.
And likewise with regards to Jesus claiming that He was going to return immediately and that was the reason we did'nt have to "give thought to tomorrow'. Jesus clearly says that no man knows, not even Himself, at what time the Tribulation will begin and He will return.
I do not know much about this Mr. Hitchins, never heard of him before today...But if his knowledge of the bible is so weak, or he deliberatly bastardises it, whatever the problem is, I suggest taking what Mr. Hitchins says with a grain of salt. A grain of 'the salt of the earth' so to speak.
The only one who is absolutely absurd here is Mr. Hitchins and the conclusions he makes!!!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 22, 2009 - 08:36am PT
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 22, 2009 - 08:38am PT
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One last thing I would like to mention in connection to evolution are some of the amazing discoveries and resources available from the study of DNA.
Every one carries within them the heritage of all your homo sapiens ancestors. If you are African descended, these go back more than 50,000 years. If your ancestors are from Europe, Asia, or the Americas, it will be 50,000 or less and your DNA enables us to know what route they took to get there and at what point in time the mutation occurred that made your genetic lineage, your haplotype, unique. With more detailed testing you can determine who of the same surname is related to you. It is also possible to find hidden ethnic ancestry both in America and in the lands of your ancestors. For African Americans it is often the only hope of knowing what part of Africa your ancestors came from.
The PBS video, The Long Journey, details the story of how our ancestors left Africa and covered the face of the earth in the span of only a few thousand years. Spencer Wells, the narrator, is now the head of a five year project by National Geographic to sample every human population on earth. This gargantuan effort is funded in part through the money earned from individual testing. If you would like to know your deep ancestry going back 20,000 to 50,000 years ago, National Geographic offers the cheapest reliable way to do this, for only $99.
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/lan/en/atlas.html
To see how useful DNA has proven to be for a common name like Baker note:
http://bakerdna.net/
For some interesting examples of how multi ethnic heritage involving Africans, Native Americans and early European colonials can be sorted out, note studies being done on the east coast where such admixtures first occurred. Through this testing we may even be able to locate descendants of the lost colony of Roanoke.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Colony_DNA_Project
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~molcgdrg/
For those who want to read abstracts on the subject from the original research papers see:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez
and type in the name of any ethnic group that you're interested in.
And finally, for dog lovers who want to know what their mixed mutt is composed of, the DNA testing lab with the most accurate methods (230 breeds tested for) is:
http://www.wisdompanel.com/
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 22, 2009 - 08:47am PT
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Thanks for that, Gobbee. It's been a number of hours since you tried
to convert the pagans with another bible copy and paste.
Keep em coming !
Personally, I wish you would do more on the Book on Revelations .
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 09:38am PT
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Thankyou, Gobee! You truly are 'salt of the earth'!
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Oct 22, 2009 - 09:39am PT
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Jstan,
Please be careful if you are equating abnormal psychology with "adaptive group behavior". From my limited understanding, some abnormal psychology is organic in nature, injuries, illnesses, developmental. Also, there are many traits in biological organisms that are non-adaptive. Some things come to mind, vestigal limbs on a boa constrictor, lipstick on a pig, or maybe even an Alaskan senator.
What I was taught is that evolution is a testable theory, and in essence it is a law. The underlying mechanism of evolution is natural selection. The beauty I see in it is that there is this simple mechanism, and it works on RNA, DNA, proteins, traits, behaviors, individual organisms, groups of similar organisms, and even groups of very different organisms. There seems to be a parallel between natural selection, and a law like gravity. Both are simple in principle, but when you throw in concepts of space and time, the manifestations are that much more incredible. Evolution, the diversity of life, and its organization amazes me.
Furthermore, there seems to be a conflict between my understanding of entropy, and the diversification, and perpetuation of life. (The biological drive to procreate may almost be a proverbial "genie out of a bottle".) I'm sure the are easily reconciled. Maybe what I see, from a human perspective, creation and life, is really, simply highly ordered decay. Still, it really is beautiful! (RAD!), Also, I'm sure that there are much better things to be doing, but I hope that we find life on Mars in my lifetime. Ha! Maybe one of the better things to be doing is climbing!!!
Finally, Jstan. If we talk about abnormal psychology, here is something that I think might resolve many problems in general.
Richard Brautigan - Karma Repair Kit: Items 1-4
1. Get enough food to eat,
and eat it.
2. Find a place to sleep where it is quiet,
and sleep there.
3. Reduce intellectual and emotional noise
until you arrive at the silence of yourself,
and listen to it.
4.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 10:18am PT
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Evolution is considered by biologists to be the fundamental principal of biology. Without evolution there is no modern biology.
This seems to have escaped the notice of those people who oppose the teaching of evolution because it is in conflict with their religious beliefs.
Yes! Biology makes no sense without it.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Oct 22, 2009 - 10:34am PT
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You know the one thing that is gonna throw science into a major tither is the fact that we are not alone. Call them Aliens if you must, (I know they are really Fallen Angels and Nephalim).
It will throw instantly the whole idea of accidental evolution into question. Perhaps they have been here for millions of years and have influenced mankind or genetically altered our DNA? If that is true, then Evolution as researched and taught at the moment is wrong, it didn't go down exactly that way.
So NASA when are we gonna get up-close high resolution images from the LRO of this craft on the backside of the Moon and publically release them? Come-on already geeeeeeeeeeeees.
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/frame/?AS15-P-9625
The idea of a massive craft on the backside of the Moon doesn't surprise me anymore. I know that the word of God is true and this is explained in Genesis. Some of the Nephalim survived the flood. Perhaps they made their own "Ark." They are a hybrid of Angel/Man and they had superior intellect although they are completely evil and lost. They are not a result of God's design. Angels were never meant to breed with humans. Read Genesis and the the book of Enoch.
So much becomes clear about our past as a result.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Oct 22, 2009 - 10:38am PT
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After sucking face with an angel one time,
My grin developed a limp.
It never quite recovered.
‘s what happens when you lay your soul softly upon the lap of the devil.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 10:39am PT
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jstan- "evidence is accumulating suggesting chemicals,such as lead, that we are putting into the environment, are agents causing some unusual mutations"
Gits ya thin kin about all those years back when we were kid's, lived in eighteen different houses, apts.,etc. between the ages of five and eighteen...maybe that's my problem.
My first year in college (1968) took a job with a roofing co. cleaning out the backs of their trucks in the evening, dumping all the refuse,tar paper etc. into a dumpster and then restocking it for the next day!! Name of company...'Asbestos Roofing Co.'....sheeesh!!! Glad I only lasted a couple day's. Quit! Rednecks did not take to kindly to longhairs back in those day's!!!! Theml letting the air out of my tires was one of the nicer ways I ended a long night of work. I remember it as the 'rednecks save my neck' job!!!
Fascinating stuff 'j'. Thanks, 7.
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Oct 22, 2009 - 11:09am PT
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There are a few "great" current evolutionary thinkers. A question that cause one of them to pause was something like, does evolution exist on other planets?
Finally, the definition of a species is a wonderfully plastic, semi-amorphous thing.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 11:15am PT
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777:
Two hillbillies walk into a restaurant. While having a bite to eat, they talk about their moonshine operation.
Suddenly, a woman at a nearby table, who is eating a sandwich, begins to cough. After a minute or so, it becomes apparent that she is in real distress.
One of the hillbillies looks at her and says,'Kin ya swallar?'
The woman shakes her head no.
Then he asks, 'Kin ya breathe?'
The woman begins to turn blue and shakes her head no.
The hillbilly walks over to the woman, lifts up her dress, yanks down her drawers and quickly gives her right butt cheek a lick with his tongue.
The woman is so shocked that she has a violent spasm and the obstruction flies out of her mouth.
As she begins to breathe again, the Hillbilly walks slowly back to his table.
His partner says, 'Ya know, I'd heerd of that there 'Hind Lick Maneuver' but I ain't niver seed nobody do it!'
End quote
OK, now that the heavy lifting is done.
Recently I read a study showing how long it takes the lung to rid itself of foreign material. I got the impression at least some parts of it are completed in under an hour. The long stringy asbestos particles are a problem because neither the cilli nor the phagocytes( a variety of white blood cells) are able to move them. So fluid removal is the remaining mechanism.
W N D
Yes. Just up thread Ed was suggesting the upcoming spectral data from the planet surveys that have become technically possible may indicate whether life is present. It is not too big a step to hope that a way of inferring the presence of evolution might follow. At a minimum we can detect the chlorofluoro carbons in their atmosphere. Out of that we will learn they are not particularly smart. When you consider both how short a time we have been intelligent on this planet and also the pathetic state of present national and interpersonal relations, it is very unlikely we will meet anyone with whom we can argue.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 22, 2009 - 11:19am PT
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I can see the day crew's back on duty. Time for me to call it a night!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 22, 2009 - 11:19am PT
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Klimmer, you completely missed the mother ships!
They're all over the place, hidden in plain sight!
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 11:28am PT
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Thank you, jstan, for the levity.
Now back to our regularly scheduled restating of unchanging opinions ad infinitum.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 11:31am PT
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Skip- Thank you for the insight on this remarkable man!! (Christopher Hitchins)
He is certainly gifted and I admire his determination! I am very curious about this individual and greatly appreciate your posting the various sites in which I can come to know, and hopefully get a better understanding of him.
No doubt a brilliant mind and thinker, bold and in your face, committed. We need more people in this world like him. Who stand for their convictions. Pray that nothing tragic befalls him!! Tagging in the enemy's camp, this is one brave soul!! Sorry to here about the drinking though!
Like its been said, what the enemy meant for bad,the Lord can turn around for the good!! If that occurs. I hope it is done out of love!! Because that is the way He would do it!!
Thanks for checking me!! Some times I forget that I was once blind at one time time. And we all have our moments of hampered sight!!
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jstan
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 11:43am PT
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Jan:
It will be much better once we get you onto a 24 hour cycle.
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 12:00pm PT
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Fattrad/Walling '12
That's enough to get believers and non-believers to shout "Dear God!"
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 22, 2009 - 12:01pm PT
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Jan - interesting stuff!
Genghis Khan was believed, in each of his campaigns, to woo and win over the most beautiful woman in the area to take for his wife.
Recent genetic studies have found that 8% of the men in what was his empire, and .5% of men all over the world contain a genetic marker in the Y chromosome that can be traced back to him. Either some traits of his, or of those beautiful and intelligent women he married were positively selected for - it's the only way they could become so widespread in under a thousand years.
GO
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 12:10pm PT
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jstan-
Back in the mid 80's, one of my best friends saved someones life, who had choked on a piece of steak at a restaurant in L.A. by also successfully performing the 'Hienlick maneuver'.
I congratulated him, expressed that I would love to learn the life saving maneuver, and asked him to demonstrate it on me.
He refused!!
I've always wondered why!
Thanks for clearing that one up for me!!
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 22, 2009 - 12:11pm PT
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Terry - you do realize that you just posted a link showing how the rigorous process of scientific peer review wins out over beliefs found in popular books reputed to be true? This despite the fact that the beliefs found in the popular book may be more attractive.
GO
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 22, 2009 - 12:18pm PT
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TriL777: Here is Chris Hitchins' website: http://www.hitchensweb.com/
BTW, your story is remarkable but I missed the part where Jesus actually manifested himself in a way that was objectively measurable. From a non-theistic pov, you were fortunate to have escaped from an alleged psychopath by means that appeared magical to you at the time. This sounds like it happened long before there were social services that might have helped you with the trauma you experienced. You had to go it alone, and you made a choice to invest the incident with supernatural overtones. All well and good, you own the experience and have every right to base your view of it on what worked for you.
It's about what works and what doesn't. In contrast to faith, science draws no absolutely final conclusions on this. Ed H. has been saying this all along. From a non-theistic world view, the ultimate rational for religious interpretations of natural events lies in their value to society, and unfortunately the report card on that is ambiguous, and sadly far from the assertion that everyone else needs to have the same "enlightenment" as any particular spiritual tradition might happen to inform. Today, that smugness merely annoys atheists. Historically, it has led to hideous outcomes for countless non-believers.
"Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics,
And the Catholics hate the Protestants,
And the Hindus hate the Muslims,
And everybody hates the Jews."
Tom Lehrer
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 22, 2009 - 12:27pm PT
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JSTAN SAID:
John:
Unfortunately in the last few years the really distant survey of, I believe Type II supernovae, have indicated the expansion of the universe is accelerating not decelerating. "Dark Energy" is being mumbled but there will be some hand waving for a few more years.
But it does appear there may never be a big crunch.
-
You'll have to take that up with Hawkings, who wrote that quote I quoted. The newer Dark Energy theory (I stay up on this stuff) follows:
“Dark energy is this idea that not only is the universe expanding, dark energy is actually making that expansion happen even faster,” said Marla Geha, as assistant professor of astronomy at Yale University. “The dark energy will actually continue the expansion of the universe forever, so there probably will not be a Big Crunch if we have the numbers right.”
But the continuous expansion would have other consequences. Over tens of billions of years, the galaxies that we see around us would get farther and farther away, making the universe more of a lonely place."
-
However, in "A Briefer History of Time," we stil see "imaginary time" holding out, which Hawking relates to "being."
What do you suppose he means??
JL
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 22, 2009 - 12:30pm PT
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WB wrotejstan wrote "Is it also free from the sensation of drawing in a breath of cool clean fresh air?"
And in the next instant the sensation will be to draw in the putrid stench of industrialization.
Along with whatever your Vedic religion is, this is also a classic argument made by Christianity, and it bugs the sh#t out of me. I suspect it's rooted in the fact that for many people, life really isn't very pleasant. Certainly, Christianity flourished in the dark ages, when most Europeans were little more than paid slaves for the local baron.
My problem with it is that it treats this world as a "vale of tears" - something you just have to get through in order to get to the "real" or "heavenly" or "eternal" world. This leads to the devaluation of the actual world we live in, and, I suspect, is part of why so many treat it so badly.
Of all my concerns with religion, this is the area where I most wish things could be different. I don't care if you believe in Jesus, Mohammed, Krishna, the Buddha, or God. But dammit, I really wish you could accept that this is the one world we have, and if we don't cherish it, we're all f*#ked. Teaching our children that the world is made of sin, that it's degraded, decadent, and dirty, is like a teacher telling a kid he's stupid and will never amount to much. It's a disgusting habit that I wish we could rid ourselves of.
GO
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Terry
climber
Spokane
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Oct 22, 2009 - 12:32pm PT
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Go Climb wrote:
"Terry - you do realize that you just posted a link showing how the rigorous process of scientific peer review wins out over beliefs found in popular books reputed to be true? This despite the fact that the beliefs found in the popular book may be more attractive"
Yup. I'm honest about that as I try to be in all things. However, the irony of this thread's title was just to much to let slide. But I am the one who is wrong and has egg on his face so to speak. This article was about Ida, not Ardi.
However
I do have a beef in that the media in particular loves to use 'science' to push an agenda. Documentaries were broadcast about "IDA the missing link' when many scientists believed otherwise.
So much of science is based on assumption - it has to be since we don't know all things and have to make assumptions to hopefully get to the truth. As skipt pointed out science is is the wrong hammer to use to disprove the existence of God.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 22, 2009 - 12:37pm PT
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And vice-versa. That's the point of the thread title.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 01:04pm PT
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cintune
Thank you so much for taking the time to read my story and offer sentiment.
It surly is a sad state of affairs, regarding all that has occurred, in the name of one man that lived so long ago.
Its not what I know, or have read about, and have experienced from Him.
But I certainly regret allot of the things I have done. But I was the one to blame not Him. Unfortunately He is the one who has been tarnished because of my hypocrisy.
Yes I am guilty, please don't blame Him.
There is a dark side and a light side and I look to the light. He is the light in me, illuminating the dark places of my soul (bitterness,despair, envy,hate,jealousy etc.) Replacing it with peace and love.
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Oct 22, 2009 - 01:13pm PT
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cintune,
Why do you find what I said to be bizarre? I know what the acronyms
are.
Some ISSN are just what I said, and so are some ISBN as in this link,
http://besaw.webs.com
caveat.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 01:14pm PT
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But the soul is missing from their Evolution thus their theory is incomplete.
The soul is the real missing link.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 22, 2009 - 01:14pm PT
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Dr F wrote: Terry, the Discovery link is about "Ida", not "Ardi"
Ida is a completely different creature, the link between primates and other forms
Ardi still is a missing link for Man to ape like creature
The whole term of "missing link" as it's used in popular culture has no validity in modern evolutionary science as I understand it. The term means a transitionary animal between the other large apes and us. However it is based on the belief that we are descended from the other large apes, which is not actually true - rather, we and the other great apes share a common ancestor.
If you want to re-define "missing link" as the last common ancestor between humans and their closest living relative (the chimpanzee), neither Ardi nor Ida fits.
Although if you want to re-define the term to simply mean a transitional form in human evolution, Ardi is a magnificent case. She walked upright, but still lived in trees. She has flat feet like us, but a grasping big toe like the other great apes. In short, falling about halfway between us and our last common ancestor with the chimpanzee, she shows some really cool similarities with us. And some of the radically different things from us (like the grasping big toe) are probably shared with what that ancestor looked like. Pretty cool!
GO
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 01:23pm PT
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We all come from God, the same ancestor, the same father.
aham bija-pradah pita: “I am the seed giving father"
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 22, 2009 - 01:29pm PT
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There is a dark side and a light side and I look to the light. He is the light in me, illuminating the dark places of my soul (bitterness,despair, envy,hate,jealousy etc.) Replacing it with peace and love.
No argument with that part of it at all.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 01:31pm PT
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So at the present moment both simple and complex forms are existing.
One did not develop into the other. For example, childhood body has developed into adult body, and the child’s body is no longer there.
So if the higher, complex species developed from the simpler, lower species, then we should see no simple species.
But all species are now existing simultaneously.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 01:32pm PT
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Christians have discoved that through Christ, there is a grander vision of the granduer that is available to all men. You won't find these things through science. You'll find these things when your heart is willing to admit, "Maybe I don't have it all figured out."
Sorry, nice story, but you're absolutelty wrong. Creationists would never admit this. It is an intellectually stagnant belief, unchanged in thousands of years. They would never admit that the story is much more complex and beautiful. They deny, dismiss and outright lie sometimes to expunge new evidence that would contradict their sacred texts.
The difference is that theories explaining evolution have changed in response to new evidence that arises. But while explanations may somewhat change, the pattern remains: life on earth has evolved over the ages. Nothing honest or credible has yet sunk that.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 01:36pm PT
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The difference is that theories explaining evolution.
That means you don't know.
So it's ultimately worthless.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 01:40pm PT
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Werner do you understand what a theory is?
A theory is an idea that has not been disproven. It's an idea that has weathered a lot of knocks against it. It's the best explanation still standing. The notion that life has evolved has weathered evolved has weathered an awful lot of knocks against it.
This is the problem with creationism. There have been many knocks against it: fossil evidnece, molecular evidence, etc. etc. and yet people still believe it. That makes no sense.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 01:42pm PT
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Whose the stagnant one here?
Creationism is stagnant. It was laid out thousands of years ago and has not been receptive--in fact, it has been often hostile--to considering new evidence to the contrary. It is what it has always been. In that frame of thinking, new learning about the origin of life has essentially stopped. That's stagnation.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 22, 2009 - 01:45pm PT
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Yup. I'm honest about that as I try to be in all things. However, the irony of this thread's title was just to much to let slide. But I am the one who is wrong and has egg on his face so to speak. This article was about Ida, not Ardi.
Oh, I liked your "turns out to be a ball not a strike". I thought it was clever and funny! But also funny to me was the immense irony that an article purported to minimize the import of Ida (or Ardi, or whatever) was a perfect example of how science marches on, rolling right over popular belief, even when that belief is much cooler, or would be a great and important truth... if it were true! The article is a validation of science, and a repudiation of belief for its own sake.
However
I do have a beef in that the media in particular loves to use 'science' to push an agenda. Documentaries were broadcast about "IDA the missing link' when many scientists believed otherwise.
I'm with you on this one! Although I think the only agenda the media has is to make a cool story. Cool stories are what sell, true or not. Same has been happening for 1000s of years.
So much of science is based on assumption - it has to be since we don't know all things and have to make assumptions to hopefully get to the truth.
Yes and no. Science is based on making an assumption and then *testing* it. If it does not fit the data, or cannot be tested, an individual scientist may still claim it's true, but most other scientists will not base their work (and reputation) on the assumption, and eventually the assumption will die a forgotten death. Science is only interested in assumptions that work.
As skipt pointed out science is is the wrong hammer to use to disprove the existence of God.
Hmm... this one is complicated. Science really has nothing to do with God, per se. There is no way to prove or disprove something not of this world. However, if those who believe in God make claims about what their god does or doesn't do in this material world, then those claims can be tested. They become theories, like any other theory.
If a theory doesn't pass the test, then it's reasonable to throw it on the scrap heap. If, however, these people stick to their beliefs (say, that the world is 6,000 years old) then I think it's perfectly reasonable to claim that those people are simply wrong. However, if they fall back on God's authority, and God cannot (by definition) be wrong, then what does this mean?
The answer to that question is entirely up for interpretation. But certainly, for the practitioners of many religions, the "untruths" of those practicing other religions are seen as reasons to believe that the practitioners of the other religions are worshiping a "false God". Therefore the practitioners of many religions deny the existence of hundreds of other Gods.
The Atheist simply continues the practice to its logical conclusion.
GO
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jstan
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 01:45pm PT
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Fact; a piece of information being presented as having objective reality.
This is not the same as saying a fact is something "known" "absolutely" to be "True".
It says the fact describes something that is observed in the real world when certain conditions apply.
For instance you say it is a fact that things fall when you let them go. That's not always what is OBSERVED.
You can be on the orbiting space shuttle. Things don't fall of their own accord in that FRAME OF REFERENCE. The reason they don't is because they are accelerating at the same rate as is the shuttle. There is no RELATIVE acceleration.
Or you can be at very large distance from any significant mass and travelling in an inertial frame of reference. Based upon the precision of your measuring system you can calculate how far you must be from the mass of the largest nearby object -
for the body not to accelerate detectably when you release it.
Now we can keep on using............religiously charged words.............. and we will sit here accomplishing nothing till long after the cows come home. Or we can use language acknowledging that we have to use words that have yet to be rendered useless because of their being charged.
Why do we use these words? Because they are charged words, have impact, and we think they carry extra information. (Spin.) They do all right, but they can no longer be used because their emotional burden causes them to be VARIOUSLY interpreted.
Fact: Something only god "knows." (But he does not tell us his plan.)
Tomorrow he may change this fact altogether. So this fact is something you have to see each morning to see if it still applies. So keep an apple by the bed. Drop it on your head when you get up and see if it still hurts. Then you can start your day - confident.
"Spin" by the way is way emotionalized. If a body had mass it used to mean it also had angular momentum.
Now "spin" makes many of us start looking for our AK-47's.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 01:50pm PT
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Cragman:
That's the densest collection of charged meaningless words we have seen since the last daily reading.
Great example!
Perfect.
Oops!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 22, 2009 - 01:51pm PT
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Cragman, next you'll be hunting witches. Good time of year for it anyway.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 22, 2009 - 01:52pm PT
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WB wroteSo at the present moment both simple and complex forms are existing.
One did not develop into the other. For example, childhood body has developed into adult body, and the child’s body is no longer there.
So if the higher, complex species developed from the simpler, lower species, then we should see no simple species.
But all species are now existing simultaneously.
Hahaha! That's too funny! I think you may be one of the better trollers here, WB.
Cheers!
GO
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 01:58pm PT
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Dirtbag
I understand theory perfectly.
Theory is the indirect method: we figure it out independently ( there is no God, nor creator).
The direct method is go straight to the source (Superior energy of the Lord) to understand; (Knowing we are not ultimately independent).
The atheist class still has to submit to the superior power of material nature which remains supreme to them (external energy of the Lord). They can not ultimately control nor become independent to that fact.
Otherwise the destruction of the material body could not occur.
This is where the two are opposite.
One side gains knowledge with the ascending process, (gross material science) and the descending process, (bonafide spiritual disciplines).
Thus the differences
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 02:02pm PT
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But Werner, that information is passed through Holy books, whatever that book might be, written by people. Those books have often been shown to be wrong. So how do we really know what has been said, or even if anything has been said at all?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 22, 2009 - 02:06pm PT
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When one is guilty, one tends to run from truth, call it wrong, anything to take truth's revealing light away from exposing weakness.
Funny I could say the same thing except replace guilty with fearfull. People are afraid of dying, they want eternal life, so they will believe what religious dogma tells them even if it contradicts uncorrupted powerful evidence given by Nature's God himself.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 02:06pm PT
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Dirtbag -- throw your books bias away and look at ....
Sound vibration
Study that like a real scientist and you will find the answer.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 22, 2009 - 02:09pm PT
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WBraun wrote:
The atheist class still has to submit to the superior power of material nature which remains supreme to them (external energy of the Lord). They can not ultimately control nor become independent to that fact.
Had to let the C-word slip, huh?
Well, great, if that's what it's all about, then.
“The 1991 Government survey of India states that on an average day, two Dalits are killed, three Dalit women are raped, two Dalits’ houses are burned and fifty Dalits are assaulted by people of a higher caste.” High-caste Brahmins formed a private army, the Ranvir Sena, to stop communists from encouraging Dalit field workers to demand higher wages."
http://rupeenews.com/2008/02/03/why-did-buddhism-disappear-from-the-south-asian-subcontinent-summary-of-brahmin-atrocities-that-destroyed-buddhism-in-the-subcontinent/
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 02:21pm PT
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Cragman!
Thanks for such a wonderful story!
Alex is a gift indeed.
God used him to give sight to you. And I can only imagine He will continue to use this very special gift that is Alex.
Keep pouring!!!
Gets kinda dry around here at times!
PEACE TO YOU DR!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 02:23pm PT
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Cintune give it up.
You don't have a clue wtf you're talking about.
You're still pissing into the wind.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 22, 2009 - 02:28pm PT
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Give up, Kshatriya? Where's the fun in that?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 22, 2009 - 02:30pm PT
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Christians aren't afraid of dying, they embrace it.
"To die is great gain!"
Exactly. That is a incredibly powerful motivator to believe what the people who wrote the Bible want you to believe.
I feel incredibly blessed by the creator to have this life and this Earth. I'd love it if there's more and an afterlife, but even if there's not I'm thankful to God for what he's provided. I don't need to ask for more.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 02:32pm PT
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Dr F -- "are we supposed to believe what WB says?"
Absolutely not!
Blind faith and mental speculation are definitely not wanted.
People are eager to understand the Absolute Truth through the medium of science, and therefore a great scientist should endeavor to prove the existence of the Lord on a scientific basis.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 22, 2009 - 02:33pm PT
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Pretty sure Nietzsche was talking about the effect of Christian slave-morality as the antithesis of natural selection. It's not clear that he had a complete grasp of what Darwin was up to, plus he was bigoted against the Brits.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 02:41pm PT
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Cragman-
I just feel compelled to mention it again!
God gave us Alex, blind from birth.
For us to see!!
Powerful!!
We are the blind ones, not Alex!!
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jstan
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 02:59pm PT
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"I still don't know how any Christian, Islamic person or Ju
can knowingly celebrate Halloween."
As we all know Halloween or all hallows eve was a pagan ritual celebrating the dead. I presume they pulled out the osuaries and put their grandparent's bones on display once a year. I would guess christians today are just in it for the candy.
And Christ was born, not in December at all but something like six months after passover. There was a pagan celebration at the end of the year to cheer people up in expectation of lengthening days. The christians probably just decided to put the pagans down and steal their celebration.
Might makes right after all, doesn't it?
http://www.essortment.com/all/christmaspagan_rece.htm
“No one knows what day Jesus Christ was born on. From the biblical description, most historians believe that his birth probably occurred in September, approximately six months after Passover. One thing they agree on is that it is very unlikely that Jesus was born in December, since the bible records shepherds tending their sheep in the fields on that night. This is quite unlikely to have happened during a cold Judean winter. So why do we celebrate Christ’s birthday as Christmas, on December the 25th?
The answer lies in the pagan origins of Christmas. In ancient Babylon, the feast of the Son of Isis (Goddess of Nature) was celebrated on December 25. Raucous partying, gluttonous eating and drinking, and gift-giving were traditions of this feast…………..”
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 22, 2009 - 03:02pm PT
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Locker dude, you're just never gonna make it into the club with an attitude like that.
(Hint: First you need to make your questions fit the answers.)
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 03:18pm PT
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Gaslover- "My general view of the world of values shows that in the highest values which now sway the destiny of men, the happy cases among men,the select specimens do not prevail. But rather the decadent specimens-perhaps there is nothing more interesting in the whole world than this unpleasant spectacle".
Looks pretty grim!!!
So what do you propose???
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 22, 2009 - 03:40pm PT
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Lovesgasoline - it sounds to me like Nietsche was responding to the popular movement which latched onto Darwin's ideas, and was later branded "Social Darwinism". Though that term wasn't coined until the 20th century, the movement itself was strongly associated with Darwin's ideas (even though Darwin himself disagreed vehemently with it).
Interestingly, that movement predated Darwin. They basically latched onto elements of his ideas (survival of the fittest) for their own agenda. In the 20th century, it became Eugenics, which was at the root of Hitler's social campaign.
GO
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 03:44pm PT
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jstan!
I don't celebrate halloween!!
Don't hand out candy!!!
Don't dress up as a vampire or Moses or anything else.
Christmas is a season not a date. Doesn't really matter when He was born, just that He was.
His Resurrection is what I celebrate. Prophesied for century's as to when and where it would occur.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 22, 2009 - 03:46pm PT
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Famed author C.S. Lewis explained it this way, regarding life here on earth versus life in heaven.
Two men are standing on a high ridge, overlooking a grand vista. One man is a non-believer, the other a Christian. As the non-believer looks out on the amazing view, it is all of heaven he will ever see.
The Christian looks out on the same view, and it is all of hell he will ever see.
It's not that our lives here on earth are terrible, it just pales in comparison to what awaits us in the company of God.
You may think this is a good thing, but I suspect that it (and the equivalent in other religions) will be the death of us if it goes unchecked.
GO
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 03:48pm PT
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Locker!
Your humor is contagious, don't ever lose it!!
Its a gift from God!!!
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Oct 22, 2009 - 03:51pm PT
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"The magic will not work because you are a non-believer" is what most fakes, like Urie Geller said, when they could not do their tricks in front of others.
How does this differ from the modern Cristian who will tell you that God isn't going to answer you because your heart is not in the right place?
Dave
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 22, 2009 - 03:58pm PT
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The Chronic Dependence of Popular Religiosity upon Dysfunctional
Psychosociological Conditions by Gregory Paul
http://www.epjournal.net/filestore/EP073984414.pdf
Does religion lead to social dysfunction or do dysfunctional people turn to religion for relief? Both?
Paul found that modern democracies with the lowest rates of social dysfunction—based on 25 measures, including rates of homicide, abortion, teen pregnancy, unemployment, and poverty—have become the most secular.
Those with the most dysfunction, such as Portugal and the U.S., are the most religious, as measured by self-professed belief, church attendance, habits of prayer, and the like.
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originalpmac
Trad climber
Ouray, CO
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Oct 22, 2009 - 04:27pm PT
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I love the answer, "God put those there to test our faith." Such a cop out for weak minded, ignorant individuals.
Bill Hicks reply goes, "Great. He is fu(king with us. We have a pratical joker god."
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 04:27pm PT
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Go-"You may think this is a good thing, but I suspect that it (and the equivalent in other religions) will be the death of us if it goes unchecked"
"Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends." John 14:13.!!! = 'LOVE'!!! 'SACRIFICE'!!!
GO-(and the equivalent in other religions)???
Certainly not the suicide bomber's!!! = Jihad?!!! KILL !!! 'HATE'!!!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 22, 2009 - 04:37pm PT
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But that key turns both ways. Bible-toting abortion clinic bombers: KILL! HATE!
I'm not saying you are of that persuasion, but to devout Muslims, Allah is all-loving. The ease with which these doctrines of love are perverted speaks to the weakness of the premise. And the same can be said of those who take "science" as a free pass toward doing ill to others. It's a human trait that transcends simple divisions of faith/nonfaith. Being bad is generally the easier way out of many dilemmas, moral strength is a matter of individual accountability, not just sloughing it off onto someone or something else's shoulders.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Oct 22, 2009 - 04:38pm PT
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Jeff, quit trying to wind us up.
There is a rumor that Dick's daughter had sex with my cat, but wait a minute, he's a male, and there are rumors that Dick has had sex with a Walnut Creek accountant, but I do not believe those allegations. More like Dicky boy went hunting and shot the wrong thing.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 04:55pm PT
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Fat!
Couldn't happen!!!
Light and darkness can not co-exist!!
Here we are meeting half-way!!!
You are always welcome to come over Here!!!
Everyone is well come!!! Even Charlie Manson!!!
And his little brother Marilyn!!!
And once you do, you won't wanna go back!!!
Sealed for eternity!!!
But seriously Rad!!!
Nothin dark about you!!!
Just been hangin in the shadows!!!
And sounding a little lonely, maybe!!!
Trying to figure out what to do with your pocket full of light!!!
You don't need to hide it!!!
Come on over, your already half way!!!
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 22, 2009 - 04:59pm PT
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777, I have no idea what you mean by this:
Go-"You may think this is a good thing, but I suspect that it (and the equivalent in other religions) will be the death of us if it goes unchecked"
"Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends." John 14:13.!!! = 'LOVE'!!! 'SACRIFICE'!!!
GO-(and the equivalent in other religions)???
Certainly not the suicide bomber's!!! = Jihad?!!! KILL !!! 'HATE'!!!
Please explain.
GO
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 05:04pm PT
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Dr. F, I absolutely love your cacti photos. Always a pleasure to see.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 05:13pm PT
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Go!
Were you saying that eventually Christians were going to become all fanatical like the Islamic Jihadist and start some Holy war if it isn't kept in check???
Evidently not!!!
If what doesn't go unchecked???
And what (equivalent in other religions)???
And don't forget, I am not perfect! Just good looking!!
That's what my mother tells me!!!
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 05:23pm PT
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Thanks Dr. F!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 05:23pm PT
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Go!
Perhaps you were implying that if christianity et.el., continued unchecked, some lack of desire or commitment to the betterment of humanity would slowly deteriorate progress....a sort of apathy towards science, etc,?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Am I getting any closer???
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 22, 2009 - 05:26pm PT
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I would not insult the christians by calling Bush 2 one. Whatever he desperetly claims
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 05:40pm PT
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Wes!
I was talking about spiritual darkness!!!
Wickedness in the heavenly realm!!!
And Eternity!!!
Sure there is obviously good and evil, right and wrong, present here!!!
But can you do something evil...say rape, than murder a child. And call it good and evil co-existing in the same act of that one individual??
Or can you go into a dark closet and turn on bright light and have it both dark and light at the same co exiating moment in time?? I think not!!!
We have a choice that will be ultimately eternal!! Will it be light or darkness???
The nice thing about it is we have that choice!!!
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 05:47pm PT
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So what about the people who don't learn about that choice: because they either never heard about Jesus, they were too feeble minded to understand, or the person telling them about it does a crummy job.
They are supposedly his children. But he damns those poor souls anyway?
Sounds like a real dick, a child abuser by our standards.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 22, 2009 - 05:54pm PT
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But can you do something evil...say rape, than murder a child
I'd planned on not adding anything more to this thread, but the above comment reminds me that there is something that has always bothered me that maybe one of you religious folks can help me with.
Think about your loving god. Your loving, all-powerful, creator of the universe god. Now think about that child being tortured. Raped. Tortured some more. And finally killed. Now multiply that by the hundreds of thousands of helpless children (and adults) that are tortured and murdered all over the world all the time.
I have always had trouble holding those two thoughts at the same time. A god so powerful that he can create the entire universe and said to be all loving, caring for every one of us. And those children, as they are being so sadistically used.
Were those children somehow bad? Did they do something for which god decided they deserved an agonizing death?
The reason I ask for your help on this is that I have already tried asking god, but I couldn't hear his answer over the screams of the children.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 22, 2009 - 06:02pm PT
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In the 1950's I was taught at my Catholic school that ONLY children
who were baptized Catholic could get in to heaven,
When I asked, at age five, but what about all the other children in the
world who were not Catholic and baptized, what happens to them when they die?
I was told all those other millions of kids would NEVER make it to heaven.
This really confused me at the time, and frankly pissed me off.
I told my parents I did not believe in such a god that would be so unfair
to the other kids. All hell broke loose at my home. I was told, in no
uncertain terms, that as long as I live in that home, that I WOULD go
to church and Catholic school, and that my parents did not care if I
believed in "god" or not. I could not strike out on my own at that age.
From then on, I hated "god" and the Catholic church. I became an ATHEIST
at that moment and became more and more convinced I was right as time went on.
I also let my parents know their stories of Santa and the Tooth Fairy were very suspicious.
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dfrost7
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 06:09pm PT
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Thanks for the cactus posts.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 06:09pm PT
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Dirt-
The ones that don't here about 'Jesus' he uses a basic good vs not. We all have a conscious and the inner man a thirst to know God "has put eternity in our hearts" I touched on this already up post. He is a just God!!!
The feeble minded are like little children, go directly to heaven. Jesus even says "unless you become like little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven" Mathew 18:3!!!
He is talking about there hearts/trust/innocents/love!!!
Little children are pure/innocent!!! Did you read Cragmans description of Alex, up post????
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 06:33pm PT
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"That being said, when man disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden, mankind fell into a life of sin. When we sin, we separate ourselves from God and His grace. Man being expelled from the Garden destined our lives to be wrought with sinful, evil things. It is because of US that this evil happens in the world."
So kids dying of aids sinned so much that they deserve a horrific death?
That's how he treats his children?
Like I said, God must be the biggest dick.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 06:41pm PT
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Dirt-
The ones that don't here about 'Jesus' he uses a basic good vs not. We all have a conscious and the inner man a thirst to know God "has put eternity in our hearts" I touched on this already up post. He is a just God!!!
The feeble minded are like little children, go directly to heaven. Jesus even says "unless you become like little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven" Mathew 18:3!!!
He is talking about there hearts/trust/innocents/love!!!
Little children are pure/innocent!!! Did you read Cragmans description of Alex, up post????
Some beliefs wouldn't give so much leniency.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 22, 2009 - 07:00pm PT
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Be sure to inoculate your children against religiosity.
Children of agnostics, atheists or the non-church-going casually faithful, who have not been exposed to religion, can often become involved in cults or extremely devout in mainstream religions during their teens and college years.
It's important for them to build up the antibodies early in life and reject faith as a stress response; they cannot be "against" something unless exposed to it.
So take your kids to several different churches and talk to them about all the positives, negatives, contradictions, and alternatives.
Thank You.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 22, 2009 - 07:03pm PT
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The whole unsaved toddler argument was very instrumental in the missionary movement at its global high-point. Still is, but not as much as when there were entire continents of lil' heathens to brainwash.
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 07:06pm PT
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Toddlers are saved because God is just.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 22, 2009 - 07:08pm PT
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Yup, dirtbag, that's the way of "the death cult"!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 22, 2009 - 07:12pm PT
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I also let my parents know their stories of Santa and the Tooth Fairy were very suspicious. At least the fat guy and the bunny man deliver the goods.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 22, 2009 - 07:14pm PT
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When my son was about four he told me a secret.
The Easter Bunny is just Santa dressed in a rabbit suit.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 07:15pm PT
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Norton!!!
I am really devastated to here of your experience!!!
I didn't go to parochial school, thank God...
and I wasn't forced to go to church. Up until my experience at 8 yrs old I probably only went to mass a half dozen times and as I stated up post, I didn't have a clue what was going on, it was all in Latin and we stood up and sat down allot.
I did hear the gospel story at 7 yrs plain and simple, that He loved me..
I am not fond of the catholic church what so ever...
And from what you have told me, I believe you did the right thing.
It is a lie what they told you about the children!!!
Its a lie what the told you about baptism!!!
That brings to mind the time I got baptised. We were visiting my aunt and unlce in NYC and she convinced my mother(her sister) that my little brother (Tom) should be baptized. I was 7 yrs old, he was 2 yrs. old.
I'll never forget the big scene, the priest finishes his mumbo jumbo and he begins to leave, and they remind him about me. It was a big, he is to old to be baptised, oh brother, all right then come here, sprinkle, sprinkle, goodbye!! I remember thinking, what, I almost got sent to hell??
Didn't mean a thing to me!!! It was obvious by his attitude!!!
A priest!!! What a joke!!!
I am fortunate I came across a nun with a golden heart!!! I saw very little evidence of love though, after that,(I continued to go to church, Catholic, on my own from the age of 9-12) And never went back to a Catholic church in my life after the age of 12.
I remeber them telling me that only Catholics go to heaven also!!! And alot of other bogus stuff!
But I already new the 'Dude' by then and I didn't buy it and left.
Became kind of confused and bitter because of what I heard and developed the wrong image of Him.
At the age of 18, as a senior in High School, I heard about the four spiritual laws, and once again asked Jesus into my heart. A huge weight was lifted of my shoulders. Straightened my head out right away!!
Its a pity what the catholic church has done to the name of Christ, to litraly millions of people like you and my dear sister.
Once again Norton, you did the right thing by not going along with there hog wash at a young age!!! Brainwashing!!!
Like I said earlier, what happened to me at the age of 8, was the worst day of my life untel I called out to Him, and It became the best moment in my life for a long time to come!!!
Godbless you Norton!!! I know He loves you!!!
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 22, 2009 - 07:39pm PT
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Go!
Perhaps you were implying that if christianity et.el., continued unchecked, some lack of desire or commitment to the betterment of humanity would slowly deteriorate progress....a sort of apathy towards science, etc,?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Am I getting any closer???
Do you undertand how the quote function works? When someone quotes something, it means they want to comment on it. I quoted your parable by CS Lewis, and then said I found it horrific. Why do you keep trying to suggest I'm talking about something else? If you prefer I'll spell it out.
The parable (and you) suggest that compared to Heaven, the most beautiful and natural scene is like Hell.
That devalues our world to (at best) second rank. And makes it easy to trash.
Personally, I find such a world view terribly sad, and terribly destructive.
GO
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 22, 2009 - 07:50pm PT
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When you study the bible, and get a sense of what heaven will be like, you quickly understand that this world in which we live, pales in comparison. That doesn't denigrate what we have here.
Actually, yes it does.
Reading comprehension test: When I say Quincy Quarries in Boston was a decent place to learn how to climb, but Indian Creek kicks its ass left right and center, which one am I saying is worse?
GO
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 22, 2009 - 07:55pm PT
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And Indian Creek actually exists; I don't have to take it on faith because I've been there--and back.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 22, 2009 - 07:58pm PT
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What do the Crusades and Jihad have in common?
You don't even have to look to those extremes. Common, everyday fundamentalists in the US believe that we should encourage the coming of the apocalypse.
Look at it from another perspective: I just recently got married. I anticipate that this relationship with my wife will be my closest and last intimate relationship in my life. As such, I will fight hard to maintain it - I'll treat her well, and hold her to account, I'll cherish her and the relationship more than I would back when I was dating? Why? Because as far as I'm concerned, this is as good as it gets, and if I blow this, everything will suck for a good long while, at the very least. Whereas when I was dating, I always kind of knew that there would be another chance.
In the same way, the fact that I believe that this life is all I get, and this world is all we get makes me cherish it more than I would if it was just a "vale of tears" to pass through to get to something better.
GO
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 22, 2009 - 08:05pm PT
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Seek some help pal.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 08:19pm PT
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Go-"I quoted your parable by C.S. Lewis"
Not my parable!! First time I saw It was when I was scrolling up page and ran into your comment on it!
Go-"The parable (and you) suggest that compared to Heaven, the most beautiful and natural scene is like Hell"!!
Never suggested anything!!!
That was Cragmans post!
And I never read any such thing suggested in the bible or by Jesus either!
Actually, He is going to set His Kingdom up right here on earth when He returns for one thousand years!!
And this world has no resemblance of hell what so ever in my opinion!!
Jesus created it and I doubt if He had hell in mind when He did!!
I just wondered how Christians were going to make it worst because C.S. Lewis, a mere man, suggested something. He doesn't speak for me in the least!
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jstan
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 08:19pm PT
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
Oct 22, 2009 - 04:58pm PT
What do the Crusades and Jihad have in common?
You don't even have to look to those extremes. Common, everyday fundamentalists in the US believe that we should encourage the coming of the apocalypse.
Look at it from another perspective: I just recently got married. I anticipate that this relationship with my wife will be my closest and last intimate relationship in my life. As such, I will fight hard to maintain it - I'll treat her well, and hold her to account, I'll cherish her and the relationship more than I would back when I was dating? Why? Because as far as I'm concerned, this is as good as it gets, and if I blow this, everything will suck for a good long while, at the very least. Whereas when I was dating, I always kind of knew that there would be another chance.
In the same way, the fact that I believe that this life is all I get, and this world is all we get makes me cherish it more than I would if it was just a "vale of tears" to pass through to get to something better.
GO
Cragman
Trad climber
June Lake, California
Oct 22, 2009 - 04:58pm PT
GOclimb,
Seek some help pal.
End of Excerpt
I have appreciated your advice GO. I'll try and return the favor.
IMO you have caught the ball right on the letters.
The United States of America is in serious trouble.
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 08:21pm PT
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Maybe it's time for all to take a step back &/or a deep breath. While I appreciate everyone's participation in the discussion, perhaps posts calling others' belifs BS, or that Jesus is a dick, calling people who believe in God delusional, etc., may knott be pertinent to the topic or the proper way to proceed. How 'bout a little respect everyone?
Thanks,
Gene
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 08:35pm PT
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Weschrist,
I surely don't know the "mind" of God, but I'd bet that those who agree with the Westboro Baptist Church (http://www.godhatesfags.com/); are not His representatives. I suppose anyone can call themselves whatever they want. I have nothing but disdain and pity for these folks.
Gene
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 22, 2009 - 08:39pm PT
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I have been really busy lately, and have just caught up with all the recent posts. A few pages back, Werner made some statements about evolution and simpler versus complex forms.
I'd like to comment on a popular misconception of evolution. Many believe that one of the necessary hallmarks of evolution is the constant progression from "lower" to "higher" forms. Evolution doesn't make value judgments as to which species are "better" or "more advanced". Only people make such judgments.
A given species is not necessarily better adapted when it evolves to grow a large brain. It might be less well adapted. After all big brains require more energy!
A given species is not necessarily better adapted by being more complex than its predecessor. There is nothing that prevents newer forms from being less complex and better adapted.
There are numerous examples of species that have changed very little over the eons, such as alligators and sharks. There are other examples of very rapid evolution. Humans are one such example.
Did you know that there were species of Homo that had bigger brains than Homo sapiens?
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 08:42pm PT
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Cragman is a better man than me. I find the Westboro crowd despicable. But Cragman is correct. I guess what bothers me most about these jokers is the glee they seem to exhibit with their hate. And maligning Christ by trying to hide under His banner. Hate sucks!
gene
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 22, 2009 - 08:50pm PT
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777 - whoops, my mistake! Since you were responding I assumed it was you who had posted it in the first place. Glad to hear that you don't buy the "vale of tears" line that Werner and others buy into.
JStan and Wes - thanks!
Wanda wrote: And Indian Creek actually exists; I don't have to take it on faith because I've been there--and back.
And it being part of this world/lifetime is pretty sweet, I gotta say.
GO
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 09:02pm PT
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Hahahahaha LOL
Ho Man ......?
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 09:03pm PT
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Dr-F " There was no direct intervention, otherwise it would be on TV, as the first ever intervention by God ever witnessed by modern man ever..."
Since the way God intervened in my life when I was 8yrs old has not been on the boob toob it doesn't qualify as an intervention?
I think you can do much better than that Dr.F
Dr.F- "Why would God want people to worship Jesus"
Because Jesus is God!
F- "Why would God tell Christians to start wars against Muslims?"
Have you heard the saying "turn your other cheek"? "Love your neighbor"? "Treat others as you would like to be treated..."
Haven't seen the one about starting a war against Muslims...
F- "Why would God tell Muslims to kill Christians"?
That is the Koran!! They don't worship Jesus as God!! They believe Jesus was simply a prophet, a mere man!!
The Muslim god is referred to as Allah!!
Keep asking these question Doc. There very good ones, same ones my father would ask me!!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 09:09pm PT
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TripL7 -- "Because Jesus is God!"
Jesus is Not God, never God
Son of God. Servant
Everyone is part parcel of God, everyone, and everything, in the whole entire cosmic manifestation, both physical & spiritual.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 22, 2009 - 09:15pm PT
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Two men are standing at the North Pole after a long and arduous trek, peering at the windwhipped, barren expanse. One man is an agnostic explorer, the other is a faithful pilgrim.
As the agnostic looks out on the sobering view, he's happy he pushed himself to attain this "meaningless" goal, and he values more than ever this earth, and his life in its more hospitable environs.
The pilgrim looks out on the same view, and says, "I came all this way; where the hell is Santa's Village?"
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 22, 2009 - 09:18pm PT
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Maybe the fossils aren't god's trick or test.
Maybe religion is god's test.
You may find heaven being run by the agnostics and atheists. Maybe god doesn't want people gullible enough to fall for that stuff loungin' around in her heaven.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 09:23pm PT
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Maybe ...
Maybe ...
Maybe ...
Maybe you'll have faith that you'll be right.
Maybe you'll start a religion to save the world.
Maybe you'll just have another drink and come up with another maybe.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 09:28pm PT
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Gene!
I fully agree. Westboro Baptist church is totally EVIL!!!!
So much HATE!!!! It is really sad!!!
The abortion clinic bombers and Dr. killers also!!! Sad...Sad...Sad!
Just think if your son or daughter was gay, not to mention the hundreds of thousands of others anywhere how will they ever be reached after viewing that?
SAD.....SAD....SAD.....SAD......SAD.............SAD...............SAD!!!!!!
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 22, 2009 - 09:40pm PT
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I'm with Huck Finn when it comes to heaven--lookin' at all the folks that think they're gettin' in, I don't think I would enjoy it all that much.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 22, 2009 - 09:45pm PT
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That's just plain mean.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 09:54pm PT
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Werner-"Jesus is Not God, Never God! Son of God. Servant"
"I and my father are one" Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?
The Jews answered Him for a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and you being a man, make Yourself God." John 10:31-33.
He was either God or a Lunatic, WB!!!
PEACE!!!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 22, 2009 - 09:56pm PT
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The eyes of the Lord keep watch over knowledge,
but he overthrows the words of the traitor.
Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.
Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.
For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.
In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.(Jesus)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 22, 2009 - 09:57pm PT
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Be VERY Afraid of the Religious Right
If the Religious Right gains dominion over society, we will all have to deal with Satan because he plays such a dominant role in their belief system. Anyone who is not born-again is vulnerable to Satan, for they are lacking the protective shield of Christ. The world is clearly divided into "good" and "evil", "Christ" and "Satan." R.J. Rushdoony, the man who is considered the father of Reconstructionism called on his followers to "administer justice upon all disobedience in every area of life where we encounter it. To deny the cultural mandate is to deny Christ and to surrender the world to the devil." (The Institutes of Biblical Law, 1973)
Dr. Elaine Pagels, professor of History of Religion at Princeton University wrote a book titled The Origins of Satan. She explains in an interview with Ellen Kushner on WGBH, Boston Public Radio, what can happen when a society has a 'good vs. evil' world view:
"Every group and tribe has had ways of feeling superior to every other. I mean, every anthropologist knows that, but what's really different here is that you have a moral view - 'we are good, and you are evil.'
And what happens then," Pagels continues, "as was put into the mouth of Jesus in the Gospel of John: whoever kills you will think he's doing service to God. So that if a conflict between us and them turns into a moral conflict, so we're God's people, they are Satan's people, we can do anything we like with them. I think of that when I hear the term "ethnic cleansing." It's like there's dirt there. You know, it's a good thing to get rid of dirt."
Falwell sees "a day when God will unleash his wrath and judgment upon unbelievers. He will crush them beneath his thumb." (Nuclear War and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, 1983.) While Falwell himself does not seem like a violent man, at what point will violence toward "unbelievers" be seen as "doing service to God" by his followers?
In New York magazine, August, 1986, Robertson made the following statement: "The people who have come into institutions [today - 1986] are primarily termites. They are destroying institutions that have been built by Christians, whether it is universities, governments, our own traditions that we have. The termites are in charge now, and that is not the way it ought to be, and the time has come for a godly fumigation."
Supreme Court Justice Scalia writes: [Government] "is the minister of God with powers to 'revenge', execute wrath ..." Scalia hints in his article in First Things, May, 2002, that the death penalty should be expanded. Scalia's comments are particularly disturbing in the context of the Religious Right gaining dominion over society.
The Reverend Timothy LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins, authors of the best selling Left Behind series, describe in Glorious Appearing, the latest book of their series, the violence that Jesus will show non-believers upon His return:
"Men and women soldiers and horses seemed to explode where they stood," Dr. LaHaye and Mr. Jenkins write. "It was as if the very words of the Lord had superheated their blood, causing it to burst through their veins and skin.'' The authors add, "Even as they struggled, their own flesh dissolved, their eyes melted and their tongues disintegrated."
At what point do Reconstructionists, who advocate the death penalty for unrepentant homosexuals, abortionists, and blasphemers convince others that it is time to eliminate those characterized as Satan? The goal of Reconstructionism is to do away with sin. How can you do away with sin without eliminating Satan?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 10:04pm PT
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Yes one in consciousness. Jesus dovetailed all his actions and consciousness as a servant to the Lord, therefore he is as good as the Lord but still he is not God.
Therefore direct representative of God, servant, but not God himself.
The Supreme Lord always remains eternally independent of the jivas (souls).
Although the jivas (souls) are qualitatively one with the Lord, part parcel they do not have the full quantity of all the Lords opulence's.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 10:15pm PT
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Cragman!
Exactly.
"In the begging was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.....and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." John 1:1-14.
WB!
Jesus Was God!!!
And Jesus still is God!!!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 10:16pm PT
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God the father is Supreme, God the son, who's called the logos, which is Greek for word, is subordinate to the father.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 22, 2009 - 10:18pm PT
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from Jonathan Edwards' sermon Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God (1741)
. . . The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince; and yet it is nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment. It is to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you were suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep. And there is no other reason to be given, why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God's hand has held you up. There is no other reason to be given why you have not gone to hell, since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship. Yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you do not this very moment drop down into hell . . .
The view of the nature of god is not static. Many say today that their god is a god of love. Historically, the Christian god has been much, much more often portrayed as a smiter, not a lover.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 22, 2009 - 10:21pm PT
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Skip, what is with you lately?
I don't need your approval to post anything here.
And my posting on this thread was in direct response to all the religious
posts, as I have a right too, just like anyone else.
My above post had NOTHING to do with you, period.
When have I ever "lectured" YOU on ANYTHING?
WHEN? Show my posts or the links.
YOU are the ONE, the ONE who calls me childish names.
I have NEVER called you any names or "lectured" you.
What is YOUR problem? Is you got something to say to me, then come
right out and say it here and now
PS: I don't give a sh#t if you "like" me or not.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 22, 2009 - 10:30pm PT
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It's funny.
Werner's krishna beliefs recognize jesus as sacred, but his beliefs don't quite align with the beliefs of the christians here.
Maybe a good old fashioned inquisition would teach Werner that jesus IS the god of love.
(edit) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111 some extras for trpl7
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 10:31pm PT
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Cragman! Go back and look at my post again!!
You must have looked at it in the first five seconds because as soon as I posted it I edited it to say Jesus is God!!
I'll try it again!
Jesus was God in the Past!
Jesus is God in the Present!
Jesus Will be God in the future!
Always has been God!
Always will be God!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 10:42pm PT
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Werner!
At what point in time did Jesus 'dovetail' ???
He was crucified for claiming to be God?
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 22, 2009 - 10:46pm PT
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Norton - agreed about the religious right.
GO
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 10:48pm PT
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Skip!
Right on!
God the Father!
God the Son!
God the Holy Spirit!
The Holy Trinity!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 22, 2009 - 10:53pm PT
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He was crucified for claiming to be God?
No
At what point in time did Jesus 'dovetail' ???
No point in time as he is an eternally liberated soul. Not ordinary. Direct representative of God himself.
Jesus was not God himself though, but son, servant.
Sorry .....
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 22, 2009 - 10:58pm PT
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Oh Skippy, I do got it figured out.
YOU got a problem with me.
You just don't "like" it when myself, and a boatload of other people
don't agree with YOUR religious views. You sure are easily offended.
Well guess what? YOU don't agree with MY religious views.
That does not offend me at all.
That's called America, Skip. People disagree, all the time.
The bigger question is WHY you have a problem with people who disagree with you?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 22, 2009 - 11:08pm PT
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Lovegasoline-
The Homonin that had a bigger brain than Homo sapiens was Homo neanderthal. Our brains average about 1,330 cubic centimeters whereas Neanderthal averaged about 1,500.
Nevertheless, Neanderthals had the more primitive tools and art and then became extinct. Anthropologists generally think that the innovation which allowed Homo sapiens to forge ahead with less brain matter was the invention of fully developed language. Better software, less need for massive hardware.
Another feature of their size difference is the difference in the actual shape of the head. Neanderthal stored his brains in the back so that his skull is kind of horizontally oblong. This poses a problem in giving birth for a mother that walks upright and high maternal mortality is thought to be one of the reasons for Neanderthal's demise.
Homo sapiens by contrast, has a high forehead because the brains are stacked more on top which gives a smaller rounder head to go through the birth canal and thus provides an evolutionary advantage.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 11:09pm PT
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Skipt- "I guess his momma didn't tell him right"!!
With all due respect, lightin up on Norton!!
Not only didn't his mother, also his father and the lie that is called Catholicism!
Go back and read or posts!!
And put yourself in his shoes!!
Love brother!!
"Now abide, faith, hope, love. And the greatest of these is love".
It takes faith to know God!
It takes love to imitate Him!
Keep on keepin on brother!
Peace and love!! 7
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 11:27pm PT
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Skip!
When I pray, I pray to God the Father through God the Son!
What you ask the father in my name...
So I generally pray like Jesus taught us to pray,
I usually start out "Father.........and I ask this in Jesus name, amen".
But it is documented many places the power of Jesus name.
"Every every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess Jesus Christ as Lord".
This will eventually happen at the Great Throne Judgement.
Preferable to do it here on earth.
We can talk about this more for sure!! I have been at this taco joint non-stop since about 8 am HONEST!!
PEACE DUDE!!!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 11:46pm PT
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Skip!
Didn't mean to step on your toes.
I got big feet! haha.
I hardly know either one of you!!
every once in a while I try to play the piece maker!
Stick my noes were it doesn't belong!!
It be kool though if you except my apologies!!
And then we can all three gang up on Nortons mom, and dad, and the Catholic church!!
Did you get a chance to read what Norton had to say about his youth??
......................7
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 22, 2009 - 11:58pm PT
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skip!
I also often pray...Lord.
"Lord thakyou for this beautiful day and all of my friends"
Do you?
The reason I ask is, Jesus is Lord!!!
An I also pray...Jesus please help me....
As I did when I was eight years old and first met Him!!
So.....
Pray on good and faithfull servent known as skipt!
PEACE AND LOVE!!!--------------7
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 23, 2009 - 12:20am PT
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Back from life and adventures. I've lost alot of this thread from being gone so long, but life was needing to be lived.....sadly, grandly, with energy, meaning and friends both new and old. Old friends put to rest, new ones climbing with...Yeah!!!!
Tried to read and gain perspective on the huge amount of discussion I've missed. If anyone has a specific topic they could post for me to consider I'd REALLY appreciate. So much said in my absence, difficult to formulate what to digest and talk of first.
Love yo all... :DD Having lost so much life, I appreciate the friends in the real and on the ethernet that I have....Peace, lynne
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 23, 2009 - 12:46am PT
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Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.
"I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 23, 2009 - 01:37am PT
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Dr. F,
I think you are just being baited into a typical religious response... they are not going to exam the basis of their thinking on this matter, they know they are right, they even have god on their side, and nothing you can argue will change their minds.
They believe.
Nothing you or I or anyone could say to make them question their faith, they have conviction.
Now next to a scientist, who is uncertain, and admits to limitations in their knowledge, their models, their theories, the admitted imperfection of our understanding.... well gee, it wouldn't seem like such a great deal to give up your faith for some rickety science.
In the stupid 2x2 analysis of deciding on believing or not, there is only one rewarded outcome and it's not for those who don't believe...
the two states "believe" "don't believe" vs. "god exists" "god doesn't exist"
If you "believe" and "god exists" then you've spent effort and you are rewarded.
If you "believe" and "god doesn't exist" you've spent effort but obtain no reward or punishment.
If you "don't believe" and "god exists" you haven't wasted your effort but you are punished.
If you "don't believe" and "god doesn't exist" you haven't wasted your effort and obtain no punishment or reward.
In that analysis the only way to get the reward is to believe, and hope god exists... at worst god doesn't exist and you don't get anything... but if you don't believe and the dude wants to know why, well, he's gonna put the hurt on you...
Most americans will go with the potential reward, especially if there isn't a big outlay for it...
this type of analysis is almost always flawed, but illustrative none the less...
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 23, 2009 - 01:44am PT
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Ed said: "I think you are just being baited into a typical religious response... they are not going to exam the basis of their thinking on this matter."
Yes, this just ends up in a circle jerk, a waste of intelligence and time. But Ed did point out the sticking point: "thinking." What if you could detach your awareeness from thinking for one day? What do you suppose you might experience?
JL
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 23, 2009 - 01:48am PT
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I think I did that more than a few times in my past... with a little chemical help...
it's not what you're saying, but the experience was more being than thinking
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Oct 23, 2009 - 02:03am PT
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I've already stated my belief. Theistic Evolution. Science has to move toward God, and those who believe in God have to move toward science. The complete truth is revealed together, not seperate. God doesn't put empirical evidence all around us to fake us out and lie.
Many great scientists were also men and woman of faith. We stand on the shoulders of giants and many of them believed in God and had faith.
Men of Science, Men of God
Great Scientists Who Believed the Bible
by Henry Morris
http://www.amazon.com/Men-Science-God-Scientists-Believed/dp/0890510806/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256277215&sr=8-1
Good book. It isn't a book on Creationism it is a book with short biographies of many of the fathers of science who believed. Are any of you going to trash their contributions to science and at the same time trash their faith? They are who they are: Men of Science, and Men of God.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 23, 2009 - 02:18am PT
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Pascal said the heart has reasons that the mind does not know.
And he deeply believed in the existence of God.
Atheists must now regroup and bring their guys to light ......
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 23, 2009 - 02:55am PT
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Bertrand Russel
atheist
http://users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html
Religion is based, I think, primarily and mainly upon fear. It is partly the terror of the unknown and partly, as I have said, the wish to feel that you have a kind of elder brother who will stand by you in all your troubles and disputes. Fear is the basis of the whole thing -- fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand. It is because fear is at the basis of those two things. In this world we can now begin a little to understand things, and a little to master them by help of science, which has forced its way step by step against the Christian religion, against the churches, and against the opposition of all the old precepts. Science can help us to get over this craven fear in which mankind has lived for so many generations. Science can teach us, and I think our own hearts can teach us, no longer to look around for imaginary supports, no longer to invent allies in the sky, but rather to look to our own efforts here below to make this world a better place to live in, instead of the sort of place that the churches in all these centuries have made it.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 23, 2009 - 03:01am PT
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Ed said: "it's not what you're saying, but the experience was more being than thinking"
What do you believe I am saying, Ed?
JL
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 23, 2009 - 08:44am PT
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Let not your heart envy sinners,
but continue in the fear of the Lord all the day.
Surely there is a future,
and your hope will not be cut off.
(It's always sunny in ST)
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 23, 2009 - 09:15am PT
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Klimmer-
I just spent a couple of hours browsing through Amazon and came across many books seeking to reconcile Christian belief with science. My favorite title among these was a book by Michael Dowd titled: Thank God for Evolution: How the Marriage of Science and Religion Will Transform Your Life and Our World.
Others include:
Creation or Evolution: Do We Have to Choose? by Denis Alexander
Saving Darwin: How to Be a Christian and Believe in Evolution by Karl Giberson
Beyond that, there are loads of books seeking to integrate quantam mechanics and issues of faith and there is a whole new field seeking to explain religious experiences called neurobiology.
Clearly mainstream Christianity is seeking to come to terms with science. The discussion on this thread however, has mainly represented the opposite ends of the spectrum on this debate, and very little opinion from the middle.
Meanwhile in one of the quotes of Bertrand Russell that I remember, he stated that although he was an atheist and could not believe in God, he was puzzled by the high quality of so many of the people who did.!
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Rankin
climber
North Carolina
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Oct 23, 2009 - 10:30am PT
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I agree the discussion here is polarized, but where is the middle ground? Science and faith don't meld because they are opposites. Some people base knowledge on tangible experience and others....well, they don't. Sure, the religious minded have learned to not put their hand on the stove when its hot (could be wrong about that), but they still insist on having answers for things that are unknown and are probably unknowable. The books Jan points out illustrate the difficulty of basing knowledge on speculation rather than science. The religious must continue to rationalize their mistaken dogma with more speculation or deny the science, as many do now. I know where I stand, with my eyes open. The truth is, it takes more strength to admit what you don't know than believe in a guess...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 23, 2009 - 11:05am PT
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I think what you are saying, JL, is that the way we perceive reality is through an elaborate mental model that patches together a very utilitarian view of reality.
We can learn to "turn off" that model and experience reality not interpreted by that model, but just as it is.
If we do that, we find that that reality is vastly different than the one we think we experience everyday.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 23, 2009 - 11:18am PT
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Exactly Ed !
And that reality is what the mystics at least refer to as the spiritual realm. Religion and dogma belong to the elaborate constructive quality of the brain. Beingness, awareness, pure consciousness, universal consciousness, emptiness, nothingness, the Cosmic Buddha, the Great I Am, the godhead behind God, whatever you want to call it, belongs to what is left when the verbal structure is removed. While non verbal, it is nonetheless hyper aware and intelligent.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 23, 2009 - 11:36am PT
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I like and understand what you Ed and also Jan just said. It's fun to let your brain roam in those directions and hopefully I can add to the discussion when I can claim a few quiet moments.
But this is my simple reality, the one I live each day. I wake up, like I just did and say, "Hi jesus !" He says, "Good morning, lynnie." Then depending on what's happening ..... I ask, "what up today, Dude.?" And our diagogue begins. That's it. In general terms it can be described as Ed and Jan did, but in specific reality it's a simple relationship.....jesus and me. :D
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 23, 2009 - 12:50pm PT
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Dr.F- "What intervention? Prove it!"
My presents on this earth for the last 52 years is all the proof I have.
As pathetic a life as I have lived, for I have let many people down and I have been a hypocrite, failed in many ways in my estimation. It is all I have to offer you Doc.!
My testimony is my life. If you choose to not believe it, I can fully
understand. For that is the exact reason I kept it to myself for so many years! Who was going to believe a little boy at 8yrs. old?
Let me try and give you a little better understanding of the time the place and the situation.
We had a very difficult life, struggling to make ends meet. My father was a carpenter.
Let me tell you a little bit about my father. He was born in Sept. 1903. In Porthood, Cape Breton, Nova Scotia. It hasn't changed much in 100 yrs. except then it was an island unto itself.
Very isolated, had to take a ferry to get to Nova Scotia. Now they have a causeway. Rugged, to say the least. But also very beautiful.
I spent much of my early youth there, kindergarten. When we moved to New York at the begging of first grade, they, tested me on the 3 R's , reading ,writing, and arithmetic and wanted to advance me to the second grade. They felt I was at that level at least. That my friend was a testimony to the quality of education in Cape Breton at that time.
You see... I'm just trying to say, kid's stayed in school just long enough to become literate. Even when I was there, a male was needed to help with the subsistence farming and fishing that was the primary means of life. Schooling was taken very seriously! And teachers where highly respected.
Well, back to my father, he was the oldest out of 12 children and as you can imagine, with that many mouths to feed he was direly needed at home which was often the case (my mother was from Belle Cote' a french town a little north of Port Hood, and she only went as far as the 4th grade for much the same reasons.)
So my father was called to farm the field's at the age of eight. Up well before dawn and worked until dusk. So, the day before his fourteenth birthday, when his father handed him an envelope with a one-way ticket to Toronto, Canada 1,000 miles away, and simply said your a man now and turned and walked away.
Well... it devastated him. It's the only time he spoke of his to me in his life, and he cursed his name.
When he told me that story at 85 yrs. old, with tears in his eyes (I never saw my father cry until then), I realised why he was having such a hard time relating to his Heavenly Father. He was brought up a Catholic, but thought little of the church. But he began every day on his knees and ended them there as well.
Well, he took the train from Nova Scotia to Toronto,. He told me it dropped him off in the middle of that huge metropolis, and he walked all day and into the night until he got to a farm, the only kind of work he new how to do, where he worked until winter.
He then decided to cross the border into New York (undocumented), made his way to NYC a place called Hells Kitchen, year 1917, and at the wise old age of 14, began his apprenticeship as a carpenter.
My earliest memories of my father were of him on the roof of the last house he built for us in Seattle, he built four homes that we lived in there.
The last one finished @1953. He put up his car for collateral on a lot, split the lot in two, sold the other half paid off the lone. And worked all day on his regular carpenter job, and evenings and weekends for the next 8 yrs. to complete the four homes of ours.
Moved back to Cape Breton in 1955, for reasons unknown. I remember that long journey at 5yrs old. from Seattle, it was the first of many.
Eighteen different houses/apts. and many different places spread out from Cape Breton, to New York, to Cali, to Utah, to Cali, and for my mother and father, back to Cape Breton him 78 yrs old.
Where they bought an old run down farmhouse for $8,000.00. Where cow's and other critter's had taken up residence(my mother said she was devastated when she first saw the place). And rebuilt the entire place all by himself, at the age of 78.
He told me that his only real desire in life was to provide a home for my mother, bought and paid for. He was a man's man as people like to say, and he was the father that I came love and respect.
I asked my mother once, "how do you remember your life in one sentence"? She thought about it for only a few brief seconds and said "Pack and unpack, pack and unpack"!
I remember when we packed and left Cali, to move to Utah when I was thirteen, everything we owned, tied to the top of our car.
My best friend comes over to say good-buy, takes one look at the car, and begins to sing "there once was a family of a man named Jed", the beverly hillbillies theme song, it was apropo.
So when I got home that afternoon at eight years old, I made the decision at the wise old age of eight years old, that my mother and father had enough to deal with.
I decieded not to pull them into such a scenario, it was better to leave things be as best as I could and weather this storm, not alone mind you, and so I did. Faith? Mine grew stronger over those next thirty day's.
So when I walked into that room and the door closed behind me, to face that man, I knew I was not alone, I had my Lord and my Savior standing beside me, I was fully aware of that!!
So I never told anybody, because, who would believe or understand? Then when I was around thirty years old, I started sharing my story with believer and non believers alike.
To me it was a good story. I never thought about it any other way.
Until a few years ago, after telling it to a Christian lady, for whom I have very high regard, said as a response to the story "well, it isn't all that bad".
Isn't all that bad I thought?? As far as I was concerned it was all good!!
Granted there were some issues to deal with. But I was covered in the power of the Blood of Jesus, from very near the beginning of that story!
And it is that Power, of which I am not ashamed, that's what I am telling you about here today.
That Power, does not love you one iota less than I, Dr.F, not one iota. In fact His love is so deep for you that He grieves for you. Much like a mother for a child that is lost.
So what more can I say Doc.??
Unbelief is all around!
Even in the church. Or they believe and just don't like the content of my story. Makes them uncomfortable I guess, or maybe they don't see it the way I do.
It's a story about the power in the name of Jesus, you call it what you like!! I can fully understand.
That's the reason I kept it to my self for so long, who is going to believe an 8 y.o. boy's story.
And so here we are 52 years later, things hav'nt changed much have they? Disbelief in every direction.
Sincerely, -7-
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 23, 2009 - 01:08pm PT
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navblk- "I'd be careful with that, it's not what the scriptures"
I am not sure what you are pertaining to? Careful with what? I logged off at about 9:30pm last night, and just logged back on now!!
So please kindly refresh my memory!!
Thanks!!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 23, 2009 - 01:15pm PT
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Dr.F-
At the point when I called out "JESUS PLEASE HELP ME"!!!
An I was filled with a PEACE that transcends anything that mere words,or drugs, or chemicals, or chanting could describe.
F!! Did you read the story??
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 23, 2009 - 01:51pm PT
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Dr.F!
Like I explained to jstan previously!
The middle aged guy being interviewed by journalist who was describing how he and his two sisters were having investigated for the murders of numerous young boy's, was a serial killer (he specifically states that they were all about 8) was the boy in my story!
See: "Investigating Father" Court TV 2005 Nancy Grace: producer.
I never forgot that man's face(the father) or his wife's face!
Contacted the D.A.'s office here in San Diego, they got in touch with the office that was investigating the case, back to me so and so forth. The investigator on my end here in San Diego was the head of the dept. at the time (70 investigators under him) Said they believed he was the man etc.
things take time.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 23, 2009 - 02:01pm PT
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Nav!
"In the begginnig was the Word,and the Word was with God,and the Word was God" John 1:1!!
"....and the Word became flesh and dwelt amoung us"! John 1:14.
Jesus is the Word!!
That's what it say's!!
What are you refereing to in the book of Revelations?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 23, 2009 - 02:03pm PT
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"In the begining, there was this thing,
then one thing led to another...."
-Genesis according to Tom Robbins
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 23, 2009 - 02:29pm PT
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Dr.F!
My explicit apologies, yes I recall the night I wrote/posted the story.
I shouldn't try to explain... but.
It was very late!
Very first time posting story!
First time typing a story letter etc.
I use pen and paper!!
Well guess Iam PROGRESSING IN THE MATERIAL WORLD!!
Long story, They booted me off the computer at work because I crashed the whole system/programs/the whole works back in '01'!!
So I said "Don't need no stinkin computers!!
So when I was typing up the story I couldn't,
figure out how to make paragraphs etc,(yes I agree, noob, dweeb) and at one point, after typing almost everything I lost the whole thing. I got tired and posted it.
I,ll go back and put in the paragraphs etc. many kind words of appreciation to Mighty Hiker for the schooling in that ('looks like TripL7 is having enter/return issues.
I mention that I realises I was rambling in the post
No Media Blitz!! Just trying my best to help you se the 'BIG PICTURE'
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 23, 2009 - 02:51pm PT
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For the agnostics and atheists:
I used to be agnostic but about 99.9% atheist. I believed there could be God, but chances are there is not.
But just over the last few months I've changed my views, I'm still agnostic but much less of an atheist. I've learned more about the reality of the universe and the weird things about it, relativity, quantum mechanics, etc. There's more to the universe than we can see or understand.
We don't know what was before the big bang or what caused it. I've decided to start referring to God as what may beyond our understanding, and what/who may have created the rules the universe operates on. Very similar to what Einstein believed. I still very greatly doubt it's a personal God. But the nice thing is that refering to God gives me something to thank and someone/something to trust. God is such a part of American life, I'd rather relate to what I think God is, than get irritated by other people's idea of God and the idea that people are forcing their beliefs on me.
In the 1950s previously secular American documents and sayings were changed or had God added to them during the communist scare; such as the Pledge of Allegiance, and our National Motto.
Rather than be bothered I decided to change my idea of God, from what some people tell me what God is, to what I believe God is or may be.
"In God we Trust".. sure I trust what I view as God more than the often corrupt ways of man.
I still think man is incredible. And the most amazing example of what is possible in the universe, but there is also much more than man.
In other words I now see God as a secular God. Prayer, spirituality, and the possibility of a higher consciousness are not married to any religion.
It's been very liberating.
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 23, 2009 - 03:12pm PT
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Something Ed H. said earlier had me thinking about Science versus Religion in the context of for want of a better set of terms, "open-mindedness" versus "blind-belief". These two terms represent opposite poles of thought with a continuity of shades in-between.
I submit that there is not a single person who is completely one or the other. Open-mindedness is a valuable trait, I think, if you are a scientist, because it allows one to cast off ideas that don't work in favor of new ideas, or shall I say, theories, that better fit reality.
If you are a man of God, then holding firmly to a set of ideas serves to bring together people sharing the same faith. Coming together is good for a community, it is generally believed.
If the man of faith were too open-minded, then he might come up with original ideas about the nature of God and man's relationship. These types are variously called heretics and apostates. Martin Luther and Calvin are two examples that come to mind.
If you are a scientist, it might not be so useful to be rigid and conformist in your thinking, if you are out to make new discoveries. The data could "speak" to you, but your mind would not be open to different interpretations than the familiar ones.
On the other hand, if you were a scientist at the other extreme, you might find yourself scattered in many directions, because your mind is in flux. Every time an unusual observation comes along you get sidetracked. You might run so many experiments to be certain of the result that you don't get anything done.
So all of us are on this continuum. Some are closer to one end or the other.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 23, 2009 - 03:35pm PT
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Brian - while I agree that we each have a place on your spectrum, I think it's more complicated than that.
Specifically, I think we each have areas in which we are more doggedly determined to hold onto a POV (politics, for example) and other areas where we may be totally open (trying new food, for example).
So one person might be, overall, in the same place on your spectrum as the next person, but rigidly dogmatic about, say, religion. While the next person is, overall, in the same place, but entirely open to all the worlds spiritual concepts.
It's kind of like in climbing - there's a time to run it out, and a time to be conservative and either place gear or back off. We all make the decision of "how" to think about every subject that confronts us, every moment of every day. Of course most of it is done habitually, but it's still a choice.
GO
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 23, 2009 - 04:16pm PT
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You also have to consider Group Think. A person might be more inclined to change his/her mind depending on the prevailing ideas. I would be surprised if a group of strangers on the Interwebs would have equal power of pursuasion as one's best buddies.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 23, 2009 - 04:29pm PT
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 23, 2009 - 06:15pm PT
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It always amazes me how nutso Bachmann can be.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 23, 2009 - 06:33pm PT
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"What God wants,
God gets.
God help us all."
Roger Waters
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 23, 2009 - 06:40pm PT
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Dr.F- "I read the story three times and I still don't get it"
OK Doc! Thanks for the kick in the butt there!
I needed that!
I went back to the first post and realised that I hadn't finished! I also put in paragraphs!!
The Post is #1622 in case you forgot!
Thanks-7-
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 23, 2009 - 06:58pm PT
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So, as I stood there that fateful afternoon, with true evil incarnate looming one foot behind me, I called out with a plea to a Person that I will never forget.
I simply cried out "Jesus please help me" No words can describe what happened next. No words, that I have at least, can describe the supernatural peace that engulfed me at that moment.
And then I heard a voice, not audible, more like a strong thought, that said just walk over to that path, and follow it to the road, and that will take you to your house.
And so I did, as simple as that. I remember walking in past my mother, busy at the stove, and on into the living room were I lay ed on a couch and contemplated what to do next.
It's still not clear exactly what happened there. You just walked away and the guy did nothing?
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 23, 2009 - 07:04pm PT
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cintune!
I had my back to him.
He was less than two feet away!!
I just simply walked away! He didn't say anything, that I heard!
Or try to stiop me! Period.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 23, 2009 - 07:15pm PT
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But you're sure he was the same as the guy in the documentary you saw?
See, this is how science nerds react to stories like this. We want to know more, we want to correlate the information in order to get at some empirically derived conclusion that satisfies our curiosity and presents a reasonably complete picture of whatever it is that's under consideration. In contrast, a faith-based mindset picks up on the parts of the story that conform to preestablished beliefs, like the one that says Jesus can appear to people out of the blue and change their lives. I mean, you're in good company there, and I don't intend to belittle the experience, but the subjective nature of whole thing just comes across as less than convincing.
What it would take would be for Jesus to speak right into my head as I'm typing this to tell me that it's all true. So far, that hasn't happened.
All I get is a bunch of crap from Werner.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Oct 23, 2009 - 07:24pm PT
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Funny, this thread. The "non-believers" to be the bigger proselytizers.
If you don't like it fine, don't believe in a higher power, fine. STFU already. Why ya gotta harass Christians so much? Most I know don't really talk about.
Funny too how y'all are careful not to criticize Buddhism, Hinduism, and ESPECIALLY Islam.
pretty telling.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 23, 2009 - 07:33pm PT
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 23, 2009 - 07:47pm PT
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Dr.F!
cintune!
jstan!
et.el.
My story at Post #1622.
Was in response to jstan's question regarding weather or not anyone had been involved in church/fundamental belief's (these are my word's)etc. and then left. If you have, how did you cope?
Well my case is kind of unusual in that I never really doubted He was God after that experience at eight.
I just became confused about what the Catholic church had told me about God.
They were the only source of information or teaching that I ever got, and I thought they were the authority on Him!! That,s what they told me. They said if I went into any other church while I was a catholic, I would go to hell when I died.
And many more lies.
What was I to think?
My experience parallel Norton's in that I couldn't believe some of the things were true about the Jesus I new! But who was I to say.
They were the only authority that I new of.
My father was brought up a catholic, but despised the church.
But he let me do as I pleased.
So I continued to go tell twelve when, like Norton, I said enough is enough.
I was fortunate to meet an old nun when I was seven yrs. old with a heart of gold that told us the simple story of how much He loved us.
Which saved my life at the age of eight.
And then at the age of eighteen a young lady showed me that the catholic church is not, I repeat not the authority.
My personal opinion of the catholic church is that they are evil.
Harsh. You ask?
Just read Norton post!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 23, 2009 - 08:02pm PT
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I would have refrained, but, Fet made me do it!
;
426 did a 360 to make sure I got that shot, somewhere in the deep south. I'm glad he did, but I was raised to be too polite to rub that crap in perpetrator's noses'.
i's goin' ta hell...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Oct 23, 2009 - 08:19pm PT
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Isn't it entirely possible that science is God. The two are seperate, Faith and Science, but isn't the beauty of science an intelligent design? It's almost perfect, including evolution.
To assume it's one or the other is unscientific. How do you know? Can you prove the absence of God?
Everything I've seen points to intelligent design. Not just in biology, but physics and chemistry.
Equating religion to ignorance is rather simplistic in an atheistic manner. Just because you have no faith or belief in an intelligent designer, then science must be based solely on the wisdom of man.
We have learned to study God's creation and understand it somewhat, but doesn't it bother y'all how well everything fits together in harmony and absolute beauty? Is that evolutionary coincidence, God's plan, or both?
It seems clear to me, from what I've experienced, there is very little doubt. The only 'doubt' comes from not actually saying, "Hi God", face to face.
If you understood religion, you'd know that is impossible. Until you pass.
That's the way it was meant to be. When you pass, you see. Until then, you just feel it in an inexplicable way. Some call it Mother Nature, or 'wonders of nature', or "luck".
I call it something else. I've experienced it. Several times.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 23, 2009 - 08:26pm PT
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Isn't it entirely possible that science is God.
It's beyond possible it is an absolute fact that God is everything.
The foolish will try to slice and separate everything in their feeble heads.
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 23, 2009 - 08:31pm PT
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Brothers and Sisters,
We will not resolve the God vrs. no god issue at the Taco stand. We have reached, and passed, the point of diminishing returns in the discussion. All I have to add is that no matter what you believe, please respect the folks with points of views that differ from yours. At a minimum, we all have to share the same time/space. I also believe that we have more in common than not.
Hope to meet you all at the crag. First beer's on me.
Best to all,
Gene
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 23, 2009 - 08:34pm PT
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We're not here to resolve anything.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 23, 2009 - 08:36pm PT
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We have reached, and passed, the point of diminishing returns in the discussion.
I think Bluering's last post was one of his best I've ever read. Jaybro's sign is fantastic. And I think I've found some common ground with Werner.
These threads help me understand different views. Good stuff.
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 23, 2009 - 08:36pm PT
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We're not here to resolve anything.
True. Poor choice of words on my part.
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Oct 23, 2009 - 08:40pm PT
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My feeling is that we're not posting to resolve the issue - that's not the return that we get from posting. There may be something else, maybe something that we don't understand, that's spinning around in God's feeble mind.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 23, 2009 - 08:48pm PT
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cintune!
All I can tell you is he was the man she was the women!
I carried around a picture of their face for my whole life!!
I only saw her that one time! but stared at her for close to a minute and face was burnt in to my memory.
Him I spoke directly with on four occasion,s that I am certain of. I recall them. There were probably more because he worked for the farmer across the street from us.
Can you remember anyone from your childhood? Say if some one gave you a picture of a little league coach, or teacher or neighbor?
Plus over the years I would occasionally think about it and picture them in my mind.
When I contacted the D.A.s office they asked allot of questions that only I would know. They were very clever about it. Question's like "how did I know he was in the military hospital for burns in Massena, New York (25 mi. from where I lived)? before being at home with his mother?
I told them I didn't know he was in the hospital!!
Maybe he was maybe he wasn't.
Everything I told you here on these post is the same thing I told them.
I never forgot his face.
He is a monster . His son and daughter believe he murdered at least thirty boy's! Maybe as many as seventy. The authority,s DA on the tape. From New Jerey and Ayer,s Mass. Say it is entirely possibly to have gotten away with it in the 50's and 60's.
They interviewed his son and daughter extensively about location's and body's etc. and said that only someone who was there would know those thing's.
They want hard evidence. You know,body fluid,finger print etc.
The boy (man now) said that he would always's bring him or a sister or as in my case both of them, to gain the victims trust.
Pretty sick guy and wife(she died about 10 or so years back)
We left that house were it happened about 2months after it happened moved to Massena. Then moved to Cali six months later.
How could I know of all the details about this guy if it wasn't true?
Mother lived somewhere near buy!
worked on the farm for the guy across the street!
Was burnt over his entire body and recuperated at his mother's house!
They mention my description of his deep dark eyes which is a feature evidently!
The son was desperate to get it proven because he feared he would kill again!
Maybe then thy will get their evidence!!
And I have proof that I didn't make it up at the spur of the moment because i have been telling the story for thirty years and have witnesses
that can attest to it, some are best friends. My family is another.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 23, 2009 - 08:55pm PT
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Wow. Well, glad you got away, whatever made it happen. Brings up the whole endless debate about evil in the world, though. Why didn't the other victims get the same kind of intervention? Because they didn't specifically ask for it? Again, seems at odds with a just and merciful deity. There's a quote floating around somewhere, forget whose, that says when people say the world needs more religion what they really mean is it needs more police.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 23, 2009 - 09:08pm PT
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cintune!
I have pondered that question many times!
And of course I don,t know.
Hopefully maybe some did get away.
It is a realy sad story in that aspect of it!
The one comfort I do get is I know all those little boy's are with the lord!!
This I firmly believe, and so has every pastor I have ever known, listened too, or talked too.
Thanks, for your kind words!
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 23, 2009 - 09:10pm PT
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Poor gods. We need them less and less.
Used to be that humans would kill a virgin or a goat for the gods so they'd have a good crop. Some gods used to get to come down and have their way with shepherdesses. Used to be that humans prayed to the gods so gods'd make the sun rise again. Some gods were actively involved in the course of battles. Used to be that gods were the direct cause of everything and the answer to any and all HOWs and WHYs. Some gods used to hurl thunderbolts to smite the proud.
Poor gods; things just ain't what they used to be.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 23, 2009 - 09:14pm PT
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Fet, I know you know this, but; Werner and Bluey are earnest, though often playfull. 3x7 just don't get it; Pimp enough dogma and someone will be changed?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 23, 2009 - 09:18pm PT
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Ed wrote: "I think what you are saying, JL, is that the way we perceive reality is through an elaborate mental model that patches together a very utilitarian view of reality.
We can learn to "turn off" that model and experience reality not interpreted by that model, but just as it is.
If we do that, we find that that reality is vastly different than the one we think we experience everyday."
I can only guess that either your intuition or some boundary experience gave you that insight, but it is getting very close to what we've been driving at all along.
That much said, there are some interesting observations per what you have said there. First, I've never actually met someone who has really "turned off" their brain, though I suspect I have known people and ocassionally experienced myself moments when detachment is especially high. The amazing thing about these moments is that "reality" is exactly as it is when I'm "sleeping," except I'm not sleeping. IOW, "reality" does not change, I do.
Also interesting is that as your detachment increases from thoughts, feelings, sensations, memories, projections and so forth, and we become seemingly less than before, the world becomes inexpressively more vivid and clear and obvious. You can simply look at somethig and "know."
Here is when, perhaps, we directly experience something along the lines of what Hawking called "imaginary time," which in this instance is the content-less, thing-less, infinite context in which the ALL occurs, moment by ungraspable moment.
What's amazing to anyone who has spent even a second there is that people bet against this as being possible, or try and label "it" as a feeling or thought or brain activity and such.
What happens across the board, with virtually anyone who has been there, is the certain sense and conviction that consciousness or raw awareness is not local, and that in some ungraspable way, all that arises, whatever we can talk about or imagine, arises from this borderless, non-local consciousness. The head scratcher is that (with one exception) we only have tools to measure and "know" WHAT arises, not this borderless context from which the SH#TE arises in the first instance. The exception is our own minds, but we usually have to do a lot of work to recalibrate them before any of this is anything more than just another wonky idea.
JL
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 23, 2009 - 09:24pm PT
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Wanda!
Now we got the Beta' on the best route!
God gave it to us!
We realised all those other gods were bogus!
Love your sense of humor Wanda!
Don't ever lose it!
God gave it to ya!
Piece-seven!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 23, 2009 - 09:27pm PT
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Dr F
You're not asking tough questions.
You are evanglelising.
"There is no God" "there is no God"
Over & over and over and over continuously.
Face it dude you don't even know you're doing it.
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 23, 2009 - 09:30pm PT
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May the discussion continue. LOL.
Peace all.
gm
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 23, 2009 - 09:30pm PT
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Whatever. After five thousand years of various "spiritual masters" dishing out their voodoo, there's nothing wrong with rational skeptics doing a little proselytizing.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 23, 2009 - 09:31pm PT
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You can't deflect that.
The bullet already hit you right between the eyes.
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 23, 2009 - 11:04pm PT
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This is logical
I thought it was the result of mutations over millenia. Does logic mutate?
gm
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 23, 2009 - 11:18pm PT
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Dr.F!
I here what your saying bro!
Key word being demonstrate!
Would be hard to do I imagine!
How could say, my experience be demonstrated?
Even if my case say, went to court and the man is prosecuted by a court of 12.
People would still have their own explanation!
And I would understand and respect that.
Or if the court found the guy not guilty for lack of evidence!
I could understand!
I just feel very fortunate to be here!
I love life!
I love people!
Also love climbing and climbers!
I never really expected to come out with this story here of all places!
Although I read the post at this site off and on and S/T on a daily bases, I never posted.
Kind of like crossing a line.
Faith is something very difficult to describe for me!
We have faith in bridges when we cross them!
Maybe we should have less faith in bridges after what happened back east!
Man has to take that step!
Just admit you don't know!
You can't be 100% sure there is no God!
Who could be!
Because you can not demonstrate that for sure!
Simply say I don't know if you are there!
But if you are real, yes I want to know you! Please come into my life!
And He will!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 23, 2009 - 11:34pm PT
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the Fet- "These threads help me understand different views. Good stuff."
Very open minded, positive and encouraging outlook!
Needed that!
Thanks!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 23, 2009 - 11:39pm PT
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Dr.F!
I understand and respect your opinion!
I can only hope you feel the same way about me!
Sincerely, John.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 23, 2009 - 11:53pm PT
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Dr F -- "I went all the way, went past were God should be, nothing was there."
The fingers of your hand (you) thought that they should take the food themselves instead of giving it to the stomach.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 12:00am PT
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Dr.F!
If I ever have!
If I am!
If I ever do come over that way!
Do me a big favor and kick my Butt!
Thanks, I know you will!
And I say this because it is not beyound me!
Honest!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 12:41am PT
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Jim Brennan-
I am new at this posting.
And word processing for that matter.
As I mentioned earlier today.
I never even typed a letter.
Use pen and paper.
I guess I just got a little carried away.
One time I held down the key to long and I remember thinking, that looks cool and I left it there!
But I should know better, not to long ago I remember reading about some one responding to someone, and saying "you wrote that in all caps (uppercase I guess its referred to) you were yelling at me, have I ever yelled at you?"
Big argument ensued, just over the 'yelling' issue.
Well my humble apologies.
Actually believe it or not I was just thinking about when to use and not use the exclamation marks, and in my last post just above yours, you will notice I just went to one exclamation mark. For what that is worth.
Thanks for pointing that out.
Didn't mean to come across that way, I am pretty borderline as it is.
Certainly fill me in as you please.
Hopefully it will make me a better person.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 24, 2009 - 12:45am PT
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locker, that is brilliant! it really is...
"there are not fairy tales"
genius!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 24, 2009 - 12:51am PT
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Craig wrote: "The universe will always be able to be understood in logical terms,there is nothing in this universe that exists without a logical explanation."
You're starting to sound like Dr. Spock. What's more, I got torched by a host of smoking women back in college for no reason, least of all a "logical" reason.
Also, you said: "I went all the way, went past were God should be, nothing was there."
Yo don't get any closer than that. Problem is, you bailed too soon. That dead, barren space is writen about in all the traditions - aka the cloud of unknowing. Hanging in that space is terribly difficult, but yields big time if you can bear not knowing and being totally clueless and frustrated as sh#t. But that ain't easy. But if you ever find yourself there again, pitch a tent and wait.
JL
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 24, 2009 - 12:51am PT
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genius!
It was good, but I don't know about genius, village idiot savant, maybe.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 24, 2009 - 01:07am PT
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John 1:23, He said, “I am the voice of one crying out in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way of the Lord,’ as the prophet Isaiah said.”
John 1:31, I myself did not know him, but for this purpose I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel.”
Matt 21:26, But if we say, ‘From man,’ we are afraid of the crowd, for they all hold that John was a prophet.”
Luke 20:6, But if we say, ‘From man,’ all the people will stone us to death, for they are convinced that John was a prophet.”
John 8:12, Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 24, 2009 - 01:21am PT
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The Devil's Sooty Brother
from Grimm's Fairy Tales
A discharged soldier had nothing to live on, and did not know how to make his way. So he went out into the forest and when he had walked for a short time, he met a little man who turned out to be the devil. The little man said to him, "What ails you, you seem so very sorrowful?" Then the soldier said, "I am hungry, but have no money." The devil said, "If you will hire yourself to me, and be my serving-man, you shall have enough for all your life. You shall serve me for seven years, and after that you shall again be free. But one thing I must tell you, and that is, you must not wash, comb, or trim yourself, or cut your hair or nails, or wipe the water from your eyes." The soldier said, "All right, if there is no help for it," and went off with the little man, who straightway led him down into hell. Then he told him what he had to do. He was to poke the fire under the kettles wherein the hell-broth was stewing, keep the house clean, drive all the sweepings behind the doors, and see that everything was in order, but if he once peeped into the kettles, it would go ill with him. The soldier said, "Good, I will take care." And then the old devil went out again on his wanderings, and the soldier entered upon his new duties, made the fire, and swept the dirt well behind the doors, just as he had been bidden.
When the old devil came back again, he looked to see if all had been done, appeared satisfied, and went forth a second time. The soldier now took a good look on every side, the kettles were standing all round hell with a mighty fire below them, and inside they were boiling and sputtering. He would have given anything to look inside them, if the devil had not so particularly forbidden him.
At last he could no longer restrain himself, slightly raised the lid of the first kettle, and peeped in, and there he saw his former corporal sitting. "Aha, old bird," said he, "do I meet you here? You once had me in your power, now I have you." And he quickly let the lid fall, poked the fire, and added a fresh log. After that, he went to the second kettle, raised its lid also a little, and peeped in and there sat his former ensign. "Aha, old bird, so I find you here, you once had me in your power, now I have you." He closed the lid again, and fetched yet another log to make it really hot. Then he wanted to see who might be sitting up in the third kettle - and who should it be but his general. "Aha, old bird, do I meet you here. Once you had me in your power, now I have you." And he fetched the bellows and made hell-fire blaze right under him.
So he did his work seven years in hell, did not wash, comb, or trim himself, or cut his hair or nails, or wash the water out of his eyes, and the seven years seemed so short to him that he thought he had only been half a year. Now when the time had fully gone by, the devil came and said, "Well Hans, what have you done?" "I poked the fire under the kettles, and I have swept all the dirt well behind the doors."
"But you have peeped into the kettles as well, it is lucky for you that you added fresh logs to them, or else your life would have been forfeited. Now that your time is up, will you go home again?" "Yes," said the soldier, "I should very much like to see what my father is doing at home." The devil said, "In order that you may receive the wages you have earned, go and fill your knapsack full of the sweepings, and take it home with you. You must also go unwashed and uncombed, with long hair on your head and beard, and with uncut nails and dim eyes, and when you are asked whence you come, you must say, from hell, and when you are asked who you are, you are to say, the devil's sooty brother, and my king as well."
The soldier held his peace, and did as the devil bade him, but he was not at all satisfied with his wages. Then as soon as he was up in the forest again, he took his knapsack from his back, to empty it, but on opening it, the sweepings had become pure gold. "I should never have expected that," said he, and was well pleased, and entered the town. The landlord was standing in front of the inn, and when he saw the soldier approaching, he was terrified, because Hans looked such a horrible sight, worse than a scare-crow. He called to him and asked, "Whence do you come?" "From hell." "Who are you?" "The devil's sooty brother, and my king as well." Then the host would not let him enter, but when Hans showed him the gold, he came and unlatched the door himself. Hans then ordered the best room and attendance, ate, and drank his fill, but neither washed nor combed himself as the devil had bidden him, and at last lay down to sleep. But the knapsack full of gold remained before the eyes of the landlord, and left him no peace, and during the night he crept in and stole it away. Next morning, however, when Hans got up and wanted to pay the landlord and travel further, behold his knapsack was gone. But he soon composed himself and thought, you have been unfortunate from no fault of your own. And straightway went back again to hell, complained of his misfortune to the old devil, and begged for his help. The devil said, "Seat yourself, I will wash, comb, and trim you, cut your hair and nails, and wash your eyes for you." And when he had done with him, he gave him the knapsack back again full of sweepings, and said, "Go and tell the landlord that he must return you your money, or else I will come and fetch him, and he shall poke the fire in your place." Hans went up and said to the landlord, "You have stolen my money, if you do not return it, you shall go down to hell in my place, and will look as horrible as I." Then the landlord gave him the money, and more besides, only begging him to keep it secret. And Hans was now a rich man.
He set out on his way home to his father, bought himself a shabby smock to wear, and strolled about making music, for he had learned to do that while he was with the devil in hell.
There was however, an old king in that country, before whom he had to play, and the king was so delighted with his playing, that he promised him his eldest daughter in marriage. But when she heard that she was to be married to a common fellow in a smock, she said, "Rather than do that, I would go into the deepest water." Then the king gave him the youngest, who was quite willing to do it to please her father, and thus the devil's sooty brother got the king's daughter, and when the aged king died, the whole kingdom likewise.
--The End--
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 24, 2009 - 01:27am PT
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The Spirit in the Bottle
from The Brothers Grimm
There was once a poor woodcutter who toiled from early morning till late at night. When at last he had laid by some money he said to his boy, "You are my only child, I will spend the money which I have earned with the sweat of my brow on your education, if you learn some honest trade you can support me in my old age, when my limbs have grown stiff and I am obliged to stay at home."
Then the boy went to a high school and learned diligently so that his masters praised him, and he remained there a long time. When he had worked through two classes, but was still not yet perfect in everything, the little pittance which the father had earned was all spent, and the boy was obliged to return home to him.
"Ah," said the father, sorrowfully, "I can give you no more, and in these hard times I cannot earn a farthing more than will suffice for our daily bread." "Dear father," answered the son, "don't trouble yourself about it, if it is God's will, it will turn to my advantage. I shall soon accustom myself to it." When the father wanted to go into the forest to earn money by helping to chop and stack wood, the son said, "I will go with you and help you." "Nay, my son," said the father, "that would be hard for you. You are not accustomed to rough work, and will not be able to bear it. Besides, I have only one axe and no money left wherewith to buy another." "Just go to the neighbor," answered the son, "he will lend you his axe until I have earned one for myself."
The father then borrowed an axe of the neighbor, and next morning at break of day they went out into the forest together. The son helped his father and was quite merry and brisk about it. But when the sun was right over their heads, the father said, "We will rest, and have our dinner, and then we shall work twice as well." The son took his bread in his hands, and said, "Just you rest, father, I am not tired, I will walk up and down a little in the forest, and look for birds' nests." "Oh, you fool," said the father, "why should you want to run about there? Afterwards you will be tired, and no longer able to raise your arm. Stay here, and sit down beside me."
The son, however, went into the forest, ate his bread, was very merry and peered in among the green branches to see if he could discover a bird's nest anywhere. So he walked to and fro until at last he came to a great dangerous-looking oak, which certainly was already many hundred years old, and which five men could not have spanned. He stood still and looked at it, and thought, many a bird must have built its nest in that. Then all at once it seemed to him that he heard a voice. He listened and became aware that someone was crying in a very smothered voice, "Let me out, let me out." He looked around, but could discover nothing. Then he fancied that the voice came out of the ground. So he cried, "Where are you?" The voice answered, "I am down here amongst the roots of the oak-tree. Let me out. Let me out."
The schoolboy began to loosen the earth under the tree, and search among the roots, until at last he found a glass bottle in a little hollow. He lifted it up and held it against the light, and then saw a creature shaped like a frog, springing up and down in it. "Let me out. Let me out," it cried anew, and the boy thinking no evil, drew the cork out of the bottle. Immediately a spirit ascended from it, and began to grow, and grew so fast that in a very few moments he stood before the boy, a terrible fellow as big as half the tree. "Do you know," he cried in an awful voice, "what your reward is for having let me out?" "No," replied the boy fearlessly, "how should I know that?" "Then I will tell you," cried the spirit, "I must strangle you for it." "You should have told me that sooner," said the boy, "for I should then have left you shut up, but my head shall stand fast for all you can do, more persons than one must be consulted about that." "More persons here, more persons there," said the spirit. "You shall have the reward you have earned. Do you think that I was shut up there for such a long time as a favor. No, it was a punishment for me. I am the mighty Mercurius. Whoso releases me, him must I strangle." "Slowly," answered the boy, "not so fast. I must first know that you really were shut up in that little bottle, and that you are the right spirit. If, indeed, you can get in again, I will believe and then you may do as you will with me." The spirit said haughtily, "that is a very trifling feat." Drew himself together, and made himself as small and slender as he had been at first, so that he crept through the same opening, and right through the neck of the bottle in again. Scarcely was he within than the boy thrust the cork he had drawn back into the bottle, and threw it among the roots of the oak into its old place, and the spirit was deceived.
And now the schoolboy was about to return to his father, but the spirit cried very piteously, "Ah, do let me out, ah, do let me out." "No," answered the boy, "not a second time. He who has once tried to take my life shall not be set free by me, now that I have caught him again." "If you will set me free," said the spirit, "I will give you so much that you will have plenty all the days of your life." "No," answered the boy, "you would cheat me as you did the first time." "You are spurning you own good luck," said the spirit, "I will do you no harm but will reward you richly." The boy thought, "I will venture it, perhaps he will keep his word, and anyhow he shall not get the better of me."
Then he took out the cork, and the spirit rose up from the bottle as he had done before, stretched himself out and became as big as a giant. "Now you shall have your reward," said he, and handed the boy a little rag just like stiking-plaster, and said, "If you spread one end of this over a wound it will heal, and if you rub steel or iron with the other end it will be changed into silver." "I must just try that," said the boy, and went to a tree, tore off the bark with his axe, and rubbed it with one end of the plaster. It immediately closed together and was healed. "Now, it is all right," he said to the spirit, "and we can part." The spirit thanked him for his release, and the boy thanked the spirit for his present, and went back to his father.
"Where have you been racing about?" said the father. "Why have you forgotten your work? I always said that you would never come to anything." "Be easy, father, I will make it up." "Make it up indeed," said the father angrily, "that's no use." "Take care, father, I will soon hew that tree there, so that it will split." Then he took his plaster, rubbed the axe with it, and dealt a mighty blow, but as the iron had changed into silver, the edge bent. "Hi, father, just look what a bad axe you've given me, it has become quite crooked." The father was shocked and said, "Ah, what have you done! Now I shall have to pay for that, and have not the wherewithal, and that is all the good I have got by your work." "Don't get angry," said the son, "I will soon pay for the axe." "Oh, you blockhead," cried the father, "Wherewith will you pay for it? You have nothing but what I give you. These are students' tricks that are sticking in your head, you have no idea of woodcutting."
After a while the boy said, "Father, I can really work no more, we had better take a holiday." "Eh, what," answered he, "do you think I will sit with my hands lying in my lap like you. I must go on working, but you may take yourself off home." "Father, I am here in this wood for the first time, I don't know my way alone. Do go with me." As his anger had now abated, the father at last let himself be persuaded and went home with him. Then he said to the son, "Go and sell your damaged axe, and see what you can get for it, and I must earn the difference, in order to pay the neighbor."
The son took the axe, and carried it into town to a goldsmith, who tested it, laid it in the scales, and said, "It is worth four hundred talers, I have not so much as that by me." The son said, "Give me what thou have, I will lend you the rest." The goldsmith gave him three hundred talers, and remained a hundred in his debt. The son thereupon went home and said, "Father, I have got the money, go and ask the neighbor what he wants for the axe." "I know that already," answered the old man, "one taler, six groschen." "Then give him him two talers, twelve groschen, that is double and enough. See, I have money in plenty." And he gave the father a hundred talers, and said, "You shall never know want, live as comfortably as you like."
"Good heavens," said the father, "how have you come by these riches?" The boy then told how all had come to pass, and how he, trusting in his luck, had made such a packet. But with the money that was left, he went back to the high school and went on learning more, and as he could heal all wounds with his plaster, he became the most famous doctor in the whole world.
--The End--
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 01:41am PT
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Wanda- "Good heavens said the father,"
Good heavens says me. Did you type all that?
Or is their a way to scan it?
Regardless, excellent choice of author and a great read.
Thanks.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 01:51am PT
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Wanda!
OK.
OK.
Know I get it. As I confessed to jstan, I type 4-5 words a minute and I don't read or process what I read much faster than that.
Gobee does his thing, Wanda responds.
This is a fascinating place, with so many brilliant people.
Think I'll stay a while.
Peace.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 24, 2009 - 02:35am PT
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Anyone here read 'Freddy's Book'?
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 04:54am PT
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Go!
Previously, there was a discussion in regards to a C.S. Lewis "parable".
And the "Vale of Tears".
And you stated something to the effect that "I am glad that you do not adhere to that belief" (my paraphrase of your words).
Well like I stated then, "I have never heard of that phrase." The "Vale of Tears"
And I am still unsure of its underlying meaning, so I am not certain weather I agree with it or not.
But in regards to what C.S. was implying, it was pretty harsh indeed. And I did not agree with the way it read, as much as I admire C.S. Lewis.
It is difficult for me to turn back to this, and I hope I am not rubbing salt into old wounds.
Like I said earlier I have studied scripture and believe that Jesus is going to set up His Kingdom for 1,000 yrs. here on earth when He returns.
By the way, He will be returning to stop the waring world from destroying itself at Armageddon.
A good thing if I may say so.
And as I said earlier, I believe He created the world, and I don't believe that he had hell in mind when He did create it. On the contrary, I believe He wanted you to see His beauty and grandeur in the creation.
I hope this somehow helps. I'll take the risk in hopes that it will.
Attempts at peacemaking sometimes generate the opposite result.
And keep in mind, as I am sure you are aware, C.S. Lewis was a mere man, as we all are. Prone to mistakes large and small.
Thanks again.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 24, 2009 - 05:04am PT
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That's Vale, not Vail.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 05:18am PT
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Thanks Jaybro.
I still don't have a clue to what it is referring.
What is a "Vale"?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 24, 2009 - 05:24am PT
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I dunno, I've looked, but to noah....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vale_of_tears
Maybe; "In geography, a vale is a wide river valley, usually with a particularly wide flood plain or flat valley bottom. Vales commonly occur between the escarpment slopes of pairs of chalk downs, where the chalk dome has been eroded, exposing less resistant underlying rock, usually clay."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vale
Still dunno, if that might apply above....
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 05:52am PT
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Thanks again!
I think it refers to verse 4 of the 23 third Psalm "Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil...".
But that Psalm begins with "The Lord is my Shepard I shall not want He makes me to lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside the still waters. He restores my soul;"
Valley of the shadow of death, can refer to any distressing time in our lives. The awareness of our mortality often comes with sickness trials and hardship. But the Lord, our Protector, can lead us through these dark and difficult valleys to eternal life with Him. There is no need to fear deaths power.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 06:12am PT
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But life isn't all valley's, later in the same psalm it says "My cup runs over. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the day's of my life;"
Well, maybe Craigman, Werner, or Go can shed some light on its meaning.
But a vale is a valley or low point.
But this life is, as you know, both highs and lows and everything in between.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 24, 2009 - 12:01pm PT
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The ultimate goal is not to go to heaven .....
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 24, 2009 - 12:07pm PT
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Yeah why serve in Heaven when you can rule in Hell? The downside is you have to have Fattrad as your minion.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 24, 2009 - 12:08pm PT
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If one is not successful in this life will he get another chance in next life? ( according to Christianity)
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 24, 2009 - 12:16pm PT
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Successful from repeated birth & death in the material world.
If one develops an animalistic consciousness in this life the next birth that person can get the body of an animal.
You can come back as dog.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 24, 2009 - 12:26pm PT
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Reincarnation was not made a heresy in the Christian Church until 551 A.D.
Before that it was widely accepted among both Christians and Jews.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 24, 2009 - 12:40pm PT
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so obviously allegory, metaphor, and simile are important literary devices for communicating important and sometimes difficult concepts. All literature has instances of this, the Bible especially, "The Lord is my Shepard..." is allegorical, not literal. C.S. Lewis, as Cragman pointed out above, used allegory extensively to portray various aspects of religious, christian, concepts.
Until Herodotus in 440 BCE, there was no executed concept of writing a history in the western world. The first line: These are the researches of Herodotus of Halicarnassus, which he publishes, in the hope of thereby preserving from decay the remembrance of what men have done, and of preventing the great and wonderful actions of the Greeks and the Barbarians from losing their due meed of glory; and withal to put on record what were their grounds of feuds.
So the idea of "history" appeared after the writing of the old testament and was a relatively new idea at the time of the writing of the new testament. The new testament does not appear to be an attempt at written history a la Herodotus, but more in line with the story telling of the old testament; it is written more to teach and explain through characterization than to recount factual aspects of the people.
What I am getting at is the dividing line between "fact" and "metaphor" or "allegory." How does one decide to take a story one way or the other?
In the idea of deconstruction, it is difficult, if not impossible, to untangle the text from the receiver of the text, that is, the reader has much to put into the understanding as the writer.
Isn't this problematic for texts that are claimed to be authoritative, especially if there are claims of divine provenance?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 24, 2009 - 12:44pm PT
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Cragman-
If I'm not mistaken, Protestants always claim they are practicing the Christianity of the earliest years before the Catholics changed it, so why the emphasis now on being modern?
In fact it was an ecumenical council of Catholic and Orthodox Bishops who decided to condemn reincarnation even though it was taught by Origen who is still regarded as a doctor of the church?? Of course we can't be sure what he taught as they destroyed all of his original works on the subject.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 01:11pm PT
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WBraun- "You can come back as a dog"
With all due respect Werner.
You are barking up the wrong tree.
I would suggest another tree.
The tree on Calgary!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 01:20pm PT
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TheFet- "Why serve in Heaven when you can rule in Hell"?
There will be no rule in Hell.
Hell is cruel!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 24, 2009 - 01:57pm PT
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Ed H.
so obviously allegory, metaphor, and simile are important literary devices for communicating important and sometimes difficult concepts.
This is especially significant when looking at the lengths to which organized religions have gone to suppress non-canonical, yet philosophically important writings. When the local cult is the only game in town, it is relatively easy for its leaders to keep everyone in neat rank and file. As soon as cultures began to overlap, giving birth to history, this complacency was ruined and competing war gods became necessary. As conflict between incompatible ideologies grew exponential, things got really nasty and messy, and they still are. For those who emphasize all the love and goodwill of Christ, one still can't ignore the fact that Yahweh is still huffing and puffing in the background, promising an eternity of torment to anyone who doesn't get in line. There is always that implied threat of violence to the self, which can of course be a great motivator. Woof.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 02:08pm PT
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Cragman- "C.S. Lewis' description that I shared a few day's ago, is an
allegory".
I was fully aware of that Cragman.
It is easy for Believer's to grasp what C.S. is implying.
I was looking at the way GO interpreted it.
"looking out at Hell"
GO missed the allegory, and took it literally.
"Earth is Hell"!
So I attempted to explain that was not....see above.
I should of took it one step further and attempted to clarify C.S.'s meaning.
Here goes.
Another version:
The closest the Lost are going to get to Heaven, is here on earth.
The closest the Saved are going to get to Hell, is here on earth.
I new C.S. Lewis is saying the same thing, it just that it can be easily
misinterpreted.
I didn't mean to disqualify your version, it just came over as....well, I
think you under stand what I am trying to say.
Please except my apology.
Sincerely, JM.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 24, 2009 - 02:39pm PT
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Subconciously, I always think of it as Veil of Tears, (was that the name of a Somerset Maughm Novel?) as if someone is masking something,(Emotions, true nature) with tears. vale/valley of tears. Vail of tears might mean you can't ski champagne powder.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 02:48pm PT
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Cragman!
That was very Harsh of me.
And was an insult to you (and CS)
It also caused division amongst the Brotherhood and confusion elsewhere.
Please except my apologies.
I feel his allegory is an excellent one for Believer's, for it should spur their desire to love and win the lost.
Well I am going to have some explaining to do should I cross paths with Mr. Lewis in the hereafter.
Perhaps you could act the intermediary and bring some Peace between us,should it be so (most likely will, we will be together for eternity).
Peace Brother!
Sincerely, The Merest of All.
P.S. Don't let me slide so easily from here on out!
Git on my azz for such infractions.
Thanks Again, Seven.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 03:38pm PT
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Cintune- "one still can not ignore the fact that Yahweh is still huffing and puffing in the background..."
Are you admitting there is a Yahweh?
He is not huffing and puffing, He is grieving, deeply.
He loves you as much as he loves me.
He is promising an Eternity of bliss.
Like I said earlier He will set it up here on earth for 1,000 yrs. initially.
Think of all the routes you can do. And all the powder. And all the barrels you can get tucked into.
Think about it.
I am talking Truth, 1,000 years.
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Marc Sisko
Trad climber
SE Warsh
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Oct 24, 2009 - 03:40pm PT
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U have got to be kidding...this debate is still going on when most of the physical evidence (missing links, DNA, 2nd law of thermodynamics, etc.,; and the sheer order, complexity, and beauty in nature that blows away all man made creations) clearly points in one direction.
The hypothesis that the universe came out of nowhere and formed all by itself without intelligent direction is the most ridiculous idea ever to gain widespread traction...I don't know how a sincere thinker can accept it.
I'd be nice to go bouldering. Be careful, check your knots, and tie the ends together
Marc
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 03:56pm PT
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Cragman!
Just wondering if you saw my post to you at 1:54 a.m. it does some explaining?
And Jaybro's post at 2:24 a.m. with two links to Wikipedia regarding the Vale of tears/Vail of Tears.
Interesting.
If you get the time.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 24, 2009 - 04:03pm PT
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777
Yahweh was based on the Mesopotamian creator-god Enki or Ea. The earliest authors of the Bible took old Sumerian myths and rewrote them to provide an ex-post-facto basis for the Israelite culture. Most of the Old Testament (particularly the Torah) is a carefully edited recap of earlier Sumerian/Akkadian/Babylonian myths, in which the other gods of the old Middle Eastern pantheons were demoted to the status of angels and devils, while Enki/Yahweh was raised into monotheistic prominence.
So he exists the same way Hamlet or Captain Ahab exist. In our imaginations, as preserved through literature.
And all the barrels you can get tucked into.
???
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 24, 2009 - 04:12pm PT
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Marc, do you pray to your intelligent director?
Considering the vastness of this universe, I consider the idea of a personal god vain and absurd.
An intelligent director might be more probable than a personal god, but there is no more actual evidence for one or the other, and I think a lot of religious folks are going to find it unsatisfying because it doesn't meet their desperate needs.
Everything was once thought to be held together instant to instant by divine will alone because people then didn't understand the underlying rules, structures and processes.
Now that we know some of the rules, structures and processess there are people who look at the overwhelming, mind-boggling complexity (which no one fully understands) and say it all must have been put in motion by a great intelligence.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 04:14pm PT
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Jaybro-"as if someone is masking something (Emotions,true nature) with tears."
This could be true.
But aren't tears elicited by emotion.
We have all seen examples of crocodile tears.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 24, 2009 - 04:22pm PT
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We only have this life to accept Jesus, the way to the father!
The goal is to praise God and the Son in word and deed, heart, soul, and mind, and we will get to do that in heaven forever!
Edit: thx Cragman!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 24, 2009 - 04:26pm PT
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Oh yeah, but I knew you got my point, when you mentioned crocodile tears. Is this similar to the Tears of a clown?
Digression; one time at band camp, I mean burning man, this guy walked by us in full clown make up sobbing, loudly, touchingly, theatrically.
My Buddy CoolBreeze, Sez, "Ah, the tears of a clown make the whole world smile."
In a lilting, affected, San Francisco kind of voice, (if you catch my drift) the clown replied "trite, very trite!" then giggled.
I think one of the important parts of life is to be part of the dance...
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 04:26pm PT
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cintune!
That's surf-speak.
A barrel is when a wave curls, and a surfer attempts to get inside it as deep as they can "tubed/locked in/covered-up/barrelled, etc.".
You've seen pictures in magazines or TV of the 'Pipeline'. Classic example of a 'barrel'.
Surfing's equivalent of deep powder.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 04:41pm PT
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Jaybro! "I think one of the important parts of life is to be part of the dance".
Yet, another important part of life is to plan for the future.
Plan for eternity.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 24, 2009 - 04:56pm PT
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That's surf-speak.
Ah. Never surfed. Swam out past the seawall at Waikiki a few years ago. Got my ass kicked, realized why someone must have originally thought "I'll just take this big piece of wood with me next time."
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 04:58pm PT
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Cragman!
Exactly.
The plan I was referring to was His plan for us.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 05:03pm PT
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cintune!
I bet that's the way it went down.
Or out.
And in.
And then they were hooked.
And it could have been at Waikiki that first time.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 05:09pm PT
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Cragman- "The place were God has called you is the place were your gladness, and the worlds deep hunger, meet"
Could be right here.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 05:48pm PT
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Cragman!
Our deep gladness is when we are in His perfect will for us.
His command (the Great Commission). "Go yea into all the world..."
We are here to serve. Even He came as a Servant.
And the world is just like the women at the well.
Spiritual thirsty.
He had the Living Water.
When our hearts desire is to do His will and bring that Living Water to those who thirst.
Our deep gladness is then.
And give the Spiritually thirsty His Living Water to drink.
And like I said that could be accomplished here I suppose, for a time anyway.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 06:05pm PT
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Cragman!
My experiences likewise.
I just meant as a temporary or occasional setting.
Untel you are directed elsewhere.
In other words I havn't gotten to that place of deep gladness yet.
Also I could have used Bread of Life. For He is the Bread of LIfe.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 06:14pm PT
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Cragman!
I like that. Attempt great things, expect great things.
I will have to remember that.
William Carey?
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 06:21pm PT
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Cragman!
WOW! AWSOME
Baptist Missionary to India.
That would be an awesome call of God!
Missionary.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 24, 2009 - 06:24pm PT
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Gleaning the words dancing and surfing from above posts. Life is indeed meant to be lived and lived well.
We humans have this incredible earth with all its beauty to play in and behold. We have learned the potential of humans to enjoy the earth, their bodies intertwining with it....climbing the rock, surfing the oceans, dancing, swimming, skiing small hills and huge crags, caving, a huge array of things that include a list of hundreds of fun activities for us to interact with each other and the earth.
Lynnie thanks God for this. For all blessings. If God is not in your vocabulary then just be happy we have and we are....we do and we love.
Peace, lynne
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 06:51pm PT
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Lynne!
Yes. His beauty and joy are everywhere to see and enjoy. He created it for us I believe, for everyone.
I was looking for the verse were it talks about the evidence of God is all around.
The thing I often think about, with my friends in mind. Is that He is going to return to earth near the end of the Tribulation and bring it to an end before the world destroys it self.
He is going to set up His Kingdom right here on earth for one thousand years.
Then He is going to create a new heaven and earth.
I'm not sure what we will be doing, but I like to think about being a guide, taking kids skiing, and surfing, and climbing.
And during the Millennium. The people who were alive, who made it through the Tribulation, will be having kids, repopulating the Earth.
So that would be an awesome job.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Oct 24, 2009 - 07:02pm PT
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Just checking in on this thread. Sheesh, it's been overrun by believers and all of their attendant banality.
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roadman
climber
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Oct 24, 2009 - 07:04pm PT
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I have a question for the god freaks who don't believe in the FACT that is Evolution: Why cant you think that GOD kick started the who process of evolution in the beginning?
2nd question for god freaks: why/how do you know god is a he? To me the fact that the bible calls god a he just shows that it's a bunch of BS and was written by a bunch of dudes a long time ago who wanted more folks to join their club! Seems to me that guys can't give birth. And in no way does it seem natural or logical to think that the one who gave birth to the universe was anything but a female.
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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Oct 24, 2009 - 07:17pm PT
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I personally have not had enough proof to believe that god exists, and at the same time not enough proof to say he does not exist. Because I don't know, I don't try and force my belief on anyone. Truth is none of us really know, and we should be more tolerant of peoples beliefs. This means letting people believe what they want, and stop enforcing your belief on others.
What i wonder is why do the "believers" get all sad when a loved one dies. If their "belief" was that strong that heaven and god do exist,without a doubt, then wouldn't a death be a time celebrate and be happy that the dead person is now with god?
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 07:21pm PT
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Cragman!
When the Lord returns He is going to bring us with Him.
We will have new spiritual body's like His.
Remember, doubting Thomas had to stick his hand into His side, where the spear/lance was thrust. And into the wounds were the nails were.
He ate food with them on several occasions. Once when He had a fire and was cooking them fish for breakfast, while they were coming in to shore after a long night of fishing (post Resurrection).
We will be young and look much the same I imagine, because we will be able to recognise each other.
We will not have mates. Or sexual desires. We will be like Him.
The people that survive the Tribulation will procreate, and repopulate the earth.
I was just commenting on this because everyone talks about floating around on clouds somewhere.
This is all in the Bible.
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roadman
climber
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Oct 24, 2009 - 07:30pm PT
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this is all in the bible?
just cause someone wrote it down don't make it true. I can write my name in the snow with my pee! -sorry that sentence makes about as much sense as the bible...
still don't really get why religious folks don't think god's a she?
father james brown!!! now I can worship that! umm thatz some good $hit think I'll have to listen to a little right now. can I get an amen! hot pants get up the seam! ha.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 07:38pm PT
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Dave!
We, like all people would prefer to have our loved one's with us.
Like any one we have our time of grieving. Especially if it is sudden.
For instance, one of my best friends, who I led to the Lord in 1981, had a four year old daughter that drowned in the community pool, where they lived (1989). I'll never forget the day his pastor called me and told me what had happened.
Obviously your going to be devastated.
The one thing you have to cling to is they are with the Lord.
And you will see them again. And in the meantime they are at peace.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 07:48pm PT
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Locker!
He didn't birth it (Universe).
He created it.
And James Brown.
'The God Father of Soul'.
"I feel good. I new that I would now. I feel good. I new that I would now. I Feel good. So good. I got you".
Love that song.
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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Oct 24, 2009 - 08:17pm PT
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Cragman-
When believers talk of heaven and god they say how great it is and that we are all living on a planet of sin. Wouldn't they be glad that their loved one are in a better place. Also they mention eternity, and if that is true then their time on earth is just a blink of an eye, and when they reach heaven with their loved ones it will be forever.
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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Oct 24, 2009 - 08:19pm PT
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what are you grieving? they are in a better place, so they say.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 24, 2009 - 08:20pm PT
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Heaven, the upper planetary systems in the Universe are not for ever.
The lifetime is much much longer than here on earth but when your time is up there you will be sent back to earth.
Heaven is not in the spiritual world, it is still material.
Sorry ........
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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Oct 24, 2009 - 08:26pm PT
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who says?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 24, 2009 - 09:01pm PT
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So how can Christians continue to sacrifice animals for the sake of their tongue if they claim to be followers of Christ?
Universal brotherhood means nonviolence to humans AND animals.
It consists of understanding that animals have souls. They are alive, conscious, and feel pain. And these are the indications of the presence of consciousness, which is the symptom of the soul.
Why do they continue to maintain huge mechanized slaughterhouses?
We have to consider the amount of fear and pain animals are forced to endure when taken to the slaughter house.
Yet still, the secretarian religion of so called "Christianity" claims that only humans have soul and it's ok to kill animals to eat them.
Their "Thou shalt not kill" testament is always spun into an interpretation saying he (Christ) meant murder.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 24, 2009 - 09:13pm PT
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It's not quite this simple, but I think this site . . .
http://www.krysstal.com/scale.html
. . . gives an idea of distance and time scales in the universe.
Puny human, it is estimated that there are ~30 to 70 sextillion stars [(that's ~3 to 7 followed by 22 zeroes (i.e. 7,000,000,000,000,000,000,000)] organized in more than 80 billion (80,000,000,000) galaxies.
So what? God put all that there so we can look up and go ooh and ahh like a bunch of monkeys?
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 24, 2009 - 09:20pm PT
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I sense a schism developing among the believers.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 24, 2009 - 09:25pm PT
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Uh-oh.
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Oct 24, 2009 - 09:33pm PT
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is it there for you to find/follow?
I have looked at meat from a biological standpoint. It takes a lot of grain and water to feed livestock. Energy transfer from one trophic level (organism) to another is inherently inefficient. Eating lower on the food chain is less wasteful. More recently, people propose that eating locally can reduce our dependence on fossil fuels. Thus, it decreases our impact on people in other parts of the world.
Maybe I can set up a rangeland grasshopper burger stand at the next facelift.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Oct 24, 2009 - 11:10pm PT
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The day that 'F' speaks for Werner, is a day I don't wanna see...
F, just leave us stupid people alone, you're so smart, go, fix the world you way!!!! You're soooooo smart!!!!!!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 25, 2009 - 12:10am PT
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And God gave man dominion over animals.
No
Man took it to himself.
Let me kill your dog and eat him, I'm hungry .....
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 25, 2009 - 12:34am PT
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"That dead, barren space is written about in all the traditions - aka the cloud of unknowing." [as in not known, or can not be known, barren space, meaning nothing, as in maybe it doesn't exist at all]
but this part is where I come back in, and question?
"but yields big time if you can bear not knowing and being totally clueless and frustrated as sh#t. But that ain't easy. But if you ever find yourself there again, pitch a tent and wait"
wait for what, for how long?
1000s have done that, for longer than sane, until they died, did it do anything for them.
Did they come back before it was too late and say they met God, know God beyond what we say as "we know God"
no, they came back and said they were almost there, they needed to wait longer, suffer more, and many went that far, and they came back with nothing as well
Who has went there and came back with anything more than we can say now,
which in my opinion is nothing,
---
The problem is that you have an answer fixed in your mind: "There is no God!"
Fine. The way you define God, I'd agree. "He" does not exist. But why let that stop your investigation? You're not the first, nor will you be the last, to face this down.
The questions remain the same: Who is refuting? Who is watching? Who "cares?" And how do you KNOW that?
JL
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 25, 2009 - 12:39am PT
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And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 25, 2009 - 01:08am PT
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Let me add this: This whole quest thing can get terribly discouraging, especially if you're looking for one thing and can't seem tol find it.
So far as "God" goes - if you have a big hang up on that name or concept, simply change it to "true self" or "higher self," meaning some part other than your conditioned ego. If you keep looking for God or your Higher Self "out there," you'll be looking forever and will, IME, find nothing, ever. It's all an inside job. But as Craig pointed out, you have to go through your own barreness. That's called the "Dark night of the Soul" in many traditions and I once had an advisor to which that "night" lasted like three years.
JL
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Oct 25, 2009 - 01:12am PT
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One day your body will return to the Earthly Mother; even also your ears and your eyes. But the Holy Stream of Life, the Holy Stream of Sound, and the Holy Stream of Light, these were never born, and can never die. Enter the Holy Streams, even that Life, that Sound, and that Light which gave you birth; that you may reach the kingdom of the Heavenly Father and become one with him even as the river empties into the far-distant sea.
More than this cannot be told, for the Holy Streams will take you to that place where words are no more, and even the Holy Scrolls cannot record the mysteries therein.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 25, 2009 - 01:46am PT
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Let's imagine a bunch of Animals, living in a zoo, evolved a higher intelligence and could speak to each other but humans couldn't grasp it.
The religious animals might adopt the monkey's view, who could see and talk best, that humans were Gods, that the zoo was intelligently designed, and that following man's laws (like not biting the cage-keepers) would result in safer-better life.
The scientific animals might observe and conclude that food came in daily timed cycles, that humans were not nocturnal, and so on.
To complicate it, perhaps scientists are off in a corner of the zoo, changing the DNA of the animals and that's what made them smart enough to start this train of thought.
It's madness to think we know how this world and humans came about. Maybe God created some sentient and powerful beings and we're their science experiment, like the zoo animals are subject to an environment which is both natural and contrived, and who are both natural and genetically modified. Who really knows?
It's madness to think that science has a handle on the BIGGEST mysteries out there, which it doesn't yet have the slightest tools to consider, or even suspect lie beyond the boundaries and dimensions we have discovered so far.
It's madness to think that, even if the prophets and saviour(s) from 2000-3000 years ago knew the deepest mysteries of God and the universe, that they had any way of conveying those to the populace at the time, who couldn't understand squat.
The mystics in more modern times, and ancient as well, who have said they have seen very deeply into these biggest mysteries, have admitted that ultimately the "biggest" truth is beyond labeling with words and concepts, that our minds are limited in their use and scope to the apparent dimension of physical reality that we exist in.
You can think of Rational thought as a computer operating system that functions very well within the scope that it has programming for, but can't see or conceptualize beyond those limits.
For all we know, the physical universe could be a speck among billions of others, or the whole shebang could be merely existing as a dream in the mind of the ultimate consciousness.
Think that's crazy? Sounds crazy but everything you experience is ONLY experienced through your consciousness. Because of that, there is NO absolute proof that anything exists in the way we think it does. Everything comes to us through our awareness so it's entirely possible that awareness is all that exists.
And even if we put that aside, all the mass in the whole earth, according to science, could be squashed in a black hole to the size of less than a tennis ball. So even if science knows more, scientists as people are still seeing the whole in an illusory fashion based on the limitations of our senses.
Why don't we all just admit that the big picture, and biggest picture, are huge mysteries? Science and religion would both have more credibility if they stuck with how much they really know so far.
Peace
Karl
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 25, 2009 - 02:39am PT
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Karl, did you miss your calling, as a sci/fi author? or did I, just miss it?
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 25, 2009 - 02:53am PT
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Let's be clear; Werner does not hold to Christian beliefs.
Newsflash: Werner is a krishna, he quotes the vedas left and right.
And God gave man dominion over animals.
This is according to your interpretation of christian dogma; not proof, not even evidence, nor logic. And all christians combined count for less than a third of all humanity.
So why should anyone care?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 25, 2009 - 03:29am PT
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Cragman-
There are many references in the New Testament to the idea that the Jews thought Jesus might be an reincarnation of Elijah. Others imply that he was a reincarnation of Elisha. Frankly, we will never know since it's highly likely that any direct references to reincarnation were taken out later after it was declared a heresy.
A similar example of this occurs, I believe in the Book of Acts, where Paul is preaching about the Holy Spirit and the people say they have never heard of it, that Peter, first among the apostles, only baptized them in the name of the Father and the Son. Yet at the end of Matthew, Jesus is quoted as saying "Go therefore to all nations and baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit". Clearly that passage was added after the development of trinitarian doctrine as Christian beliefs were meshed with Greek philosophy. Peter of all people, would have followed Jesus' command as stated had it existed in his lifetime.
Meanwhile, if you want to look for authenticity, a good case can be made that the original New Testament scriptures were first written in Aramaic since that was the language of Jesus and the Apostles, and later translated into Greek. This is certainly the position of the Chaldean Church, one of the most ancient from the Middle East, still existing in Turkey, Iraq, and Iran and still celebrating its liturgy in Aramaic, a dialect of which is still spoken.
The Chaldean Church was excommunicated by the Greek and Roman churches early on because they disputed the trinitarian formulas and refused to call Mary the Mother of God. George Lamsa, a native speaker of Aramaic, has translated the entire Bible directly from Aramaic to English and written several books explaining that the Bible makes more sense if you know what the original Aramaic idioms meant in their own language before being translated into Greek and other languages.
Semitic grammar and Indo-European grammar are completely different and he convincingly argues that in some places, the Aramaic was mistranslated into Greek. The general sense of things is not changed but you do get a much better view of the Middle Eastern life and times and way of thinking from Lamsa. Many of the teachings also come across as more liberal and loving than generally interpreted in the West. It is also interesting to note that the Book of Revelations was not accepted by many of the Middle Eastern churches including the Chaldeans. Because it has become so quoted and disputed in the West, Lamsa translates it even though the Chaldeans do not consider it canonical.
And finally, when speaking of the Book of Revelations, many Eastern writers, including Yogananda, argue that the Book of Revelation exists on at least three different levels and that one level is a descripton of the spiritual battle that went on within the mind of the Apostle John as he meditated and sought enlightenment. The seven churches with their faults and virtues correspond exactly to the Hindu and Buddhist traditions on spiritual energy centers within the body which are known as chakras.
Bottom line: There is no one way to interpret scripture.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 25, 2009 - 04:19am PT
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"Meanwhile, if you want to look for authenticity, a good case can be made that the original New Testament scriptures were first written in Aramaic since that was the language of Jesus and the Apostles and later translated into Greek. This is certainly the position of the Chaldean Church, one of the most ancient from the Middle East, still existing in Turkey, Iraq, and Iran and still celebrating its liturgy in Aramaic, a dialect of which is still spoken. "
While it's true Jesus (then called Yeshua cause Jesus is a greek word) spoke Aramaic, its doubtful that much, if any, of the new testament was written in Aramaic because none of it was written by Jesus, none of it was written while Jesus was still alive, and most of it was written far from Jerusalem and much of it was written by Paul or his followers, who never met Jesus, and relied on sources we don't know. Modern biblical scholars, believers or not, don't believe much, if any, of the New Testament was written by anyone who met Jesus in the flesh. As far as I know, almost no Aramaic manuscripts of biblical passages have been found.
The book of Revelations was one of many "apocalypse" writings that were popular in the ancient world and much crow has been eaten by preachers who used it to make predictions that have already expired. Not saying there isn't truth in there somewhere, but folks should just fess up and admit it's a mystery. The vast majority of Biblical scholars believe revelations, at it's basic level, refers to the political situation at the time of it's writing (90 ad) After all, it's perfectly clear that both Jesus and the apostles expected and announced the kingdom of heaven was coming asap and not way down the road and the Roman emperor was acting plenty like the anti-christ already.
Peace
Karl
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 25, 2009 - 04:21am PT
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St. John of Patmos had a belly full of hallucinogenic mushrooms.
Whatever gets you thru the dark night of the soul.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 25, 2009 - 04:54am PT
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Karl-
You might want to check out the books of Lamsa on Amazon. He claims the oldest scriptures have been preserved and they're in Aramaic which was the mother tongue of Paul and the other apostles.
As for Revelations, one of the three levels at which it exists is surely the first century political. The number 666 was a Jewish numerological reference to Nero Caesar.
I have no personal stake in picking over individual words and arguing about translations. My approach is much more personal and experiential.
Meanwhile, the Christian martyrs who marched into the coliseums to face down lions while singing hymns (and thereby converting thousands more) did not quote scripture as the canonical Bible had not been put together yet and in any case most of them were illiterate, a fact which most modern fundamentalist interpreters either don't know or ignore. The Church came before the Bible.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 25, 2009 - 07:02am PT
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Karl- "Modern bible scholars, believers or not, don't believe much if any, of the New Testament was written by anyone who met Jesus in the flesh".
Consider Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
Matthew- was an eye witness and a disciple of Jesus. A tax collector, Matthew would have been literate and familiar with keeping the records of money. Appropriately, this Gospel contains more references to money than any of the others.
Mark- was also an eye witness and gave considerable detail: the emotional responses of Jesus and others, the sizes and actions of crowds and the appearance of men and women.
Luke- The author states that he was not an eyewitness to the events surrounding Jesus. But he gathered the reports of others who were, including Peter. Luke was an obviously educated man by ancient standards. He was capable of writing in High Greek style and who, as Col. 4:14 tells us, was a physician.
John- was one of the three disciples who were closest to Jesus, along with Peter and James.
John also wrote the epistles 1 John, 2 John, 3 John. And he also wrote 'The Revelation of Jesus Christ'.
And Jude, James and Peter, also wrote their respective epistles and were eye witness and disciples of Jesus.
Karl- "Jesus (then called Yeshua because Jesus is a Greek word).."
Jesus is the Greek spelling/pronunciation of Yeshua.
Karl- "much of it was written by Paul...who never met Jesus"
Well, there was the encounter on 'the road to Damascus' which qualified him as an Apostle.
'The Acts of the Apostles', was written by Luke "the beloved physician" as Paul referred to him. Luke translated all accounts from his Gospel, Acts and Paul's work into the Greek language.
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donald perry
Trad climber
kearny, NJ
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Oct 25, 2009 - 09:46am PT
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Lovegasoline Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY Oct 21, 2009 - 10:58pm PT wrote:
Christopher Hitchens Rational thoughts on Jesus of Nazareth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjcWkhqScBI ...to give the pot a stir.
"They came back emptey handed saying this story has no basis of any kind"
----------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Hitchens is an immoral and perverted speaker when it comes to conveying truth. Not only will he need to repent to God for his blatant sins, but to all those to whom he has mislead with his hatred and nonsensical accounts of archeology and history.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvdg5KBlHCY&feature=related
Why would you want to quote him?
DJP
PS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2TjQqdRg5U
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 25, 2009 - 10:19am PT
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Luke 7:28, I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”
John 10:25, Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me,
John 10:37-38, If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”
John 14:11, Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.
Matt 11:3-5, and said to him, “Are you the one who is to come, or shall we look for another?” And Jesus answered them, “Go and tell John what you hear and see: the blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them.
John 20:30, Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;
Luke 4:14, And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee, and a report about him went out through all the surrounding country.
John 4:34, Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to accomplish his work.
John 17:4, I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 25, 2009 - 10:31am PT
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Whoever is righteous has regard for the life of his beast,
but the mercy of the wicked is cruel.
Do Not Pass Judgment on One Another
As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God.”
So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
Do Not Cause Another to Stumble
Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.
Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 25, 2009 - 10:37am PT
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it's a mystery, but an understandable one...
call me mad
bit-by-bit progress is made
JL wrote I can only guess that either your intuition or some boundary experience gave you that insight, but it is getting very close to what we've been driving at all along. which I think I can take as at least a "C" in this whole lesson... but I think my "boundary experience" is really learning how to do science, in my case experimental high energy physics. Skepticism is an important component of doing science, and especially when it comes to trusting your own experience and model versus trusting you observations. Since we know all ways of observing are limited, and by this I mean something formal like sensitivity to signal, signal-to-noise, resolution, background noise, etc., we learn to question observations too, until we have understood our observations in detail. Then we can start to trust them and make conclusions based upon them.
So it is with the human sensory apparatus. While we don't understand it completely, we know a lot about its capabilities and limitations. And that includes the way the information is processed, much of that processing is not separated by a normal person.
The act of unfolding the observer from the observation is central to experimental science.
And that act does leave you in a wilderness, of some sorts, where we don't understand everything. The model we construct to describe these observations and organize them into theory is similarly rigorous, using a mathematical language with precise definition.
Hawking's "imaginary time" is not a metaphor, but more likely a discussion of what the universe would be like if time could be described as a complex number with real and imaginary parts, a formal mathematical definition. The whimsy created by physicists appropriating words to describe precise quantities can be quite confusing at times...
One can succumb to the idea that we can't understand and act on that to not try. But the successes of science over the last 500 years have been great. We don't know everything, we don't even have a claim at "truth" but that wasn't the program to start out with. Really it is just taking things a bit at a time, and building all those bits up... when you do that you find you have a rather large body of knowledge spanning from the smallest scale to the largest, from the shortest times to the longest... you might even start to understand what space and time are, and what generates it...
... that last statement was observed to be "arrogant" when made at a picnic bench at a certain campsite in Vedauwoo this last summer. I can see how it is interpreted as such. But it was made not as a statement of entitlement, but as the result of observation and understanding of many other things. And the statement was not authoritative as it had not yet predicted, and been tested. And when that happens, it is very likely that that particular idea will be shown wrong.
But maybe it is the start of understanding, or maybe a part of a larger understanding.
A favorite Einstein quote of mine:
"The most incomprehensible thing about the world is that it is comprehensible."
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Oct 25, 2009 - 10:51am PT
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This quote seemed more, uh, accessible to me.
“Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute. THAT'S relativity.” A. Einstein
In school, we used to joke: chicks dig science.... (creationists? not so much.)
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 25, 2009 - 12:47pm PT
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I guess some people go down the rabbit hole further than others. When they get scared, lost, lonely, bored, whatever, they convince themselves God must be just around the next corner. It is still just a rabbit hole, no matter how many ghosts you think you see along the way... enjoy the journey.
I'm not sure how you got that from what I wrote weschrist, but it certainly wasn't what I was getting at. I wrote of the possibliity of some form of God, not the idea of a father type God figure.
As many have mentioned in this thread, you can claim all you want you know the ultimate truth: Christianity, Hindu, Muslim, Atheist, etc. but the fact remains we don't know everything, at least not at this point in time. Maybe you have enough faith in your beliefs you are certain God doesn't exist, but it is still that.. faith.
Me I'm ok with not knowing if God is just the universe, or if there is some intelligence behind it all, or something else we can't comprehend. Either way it doesn't diminish the grandness of existense.
Another way to think of it all is that maybe intelligence was inevitable. With billions of galaxies, each with billions of stars, over billions of years was it inevitable that intelligences arose? Is it still an "accident" that life arose if statistics could be worked out to show that life has a high probably to exist?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 25, 2009 - 12:49pm PT
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Dr F -- " .... So it can be said,
Saying so doesn't make it so.
I keep telling you that it's impossible to take God out of the equation. The equation itself, is God himself.
If you're an atheist and you deny and then you become the imitator God.
You indirectly try to become God.
And you will fail ...........
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 25, 2009 - 01:05pm PT
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I've already said that science confirms that material nature exists and is superior to us.
Your equation is nothing but the material natures energy.
Material nature operates along perfectly without mans intervention.
Thus it is superior.
Thus the atheist is forced to submit to the superior power of Material nature.
Thus if one so tries to say there is no God nor higher power then they have even denied material nature.
Thus the atheistic logic is totally defective and points directly at the fool himself. The atheist is making it all up in his own head and even denying the same very facts he holds true (material nature).
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 25, 2009 - 01:29pm PT
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"Karl- "Modern bible scholars, believers or not, don't believe much if any, of the New Testament was written by anyone who met Jesus in the flesh".
"Consider Matthew, Mark, Luke and John."
The actual manuscripts of the gospels are not labeled by authors and these names have been attributed to these names without any evidence. Modern bible scholars who follow academic, not blind faith, methods, do not believe the gospels were written by the folks whose names are listed on them.
You say Paul heard a voice and had an encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus, but that is not meeting Jesus in the flesh as I stated. Paul was heading to Damascus to have Christains persecuted and killed. If Bin Laden were to claim to have been struck down by Jesus and had become a Christian and yet emphasized different things than Jesus did, would you make him an apostle based on his claim? If Jesus was God, couldn't he have arranged for first person apostles to spread his creed instead of some guy who came afterwards? I think Paul got it wrong but was a good salesman.
Peace
Karl
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 25, 2009 - 01:48pm PT
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Weren't the first Gospels preserved, about 100 yrs after the death of the alleged person referred to as Jesus?
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Oct 25, 2009 - 05:41pm PT
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Manuscript fragments taken from rubble of cave 7 at Qumran may be from the Gospel of Mark. Cave 7 is believed to have collapsed soon ater the Essenes left Qumran in 68 CE. The Israeli government won't allow excavation of Cave 7 presently. It is said to be written in Herodian Script used between 30 BCE and 50 CE.
However, one fragment is not material proof that New Testament writings were in in possesion of the Essenes in the first century. Scrolls of all Old Testament books, with the exception of Esther, were found in other caves at Qumran, most dating from 200 BCE to 50 CE.
Historically, New Testament writings have come down in codex form rather than scrolls. Codex became popular in the first century CE. The entire New Testament canon was not agreed upon until three centuries after the desertion or depopulation of Qumran, but codex containing several gospels or a collection of letters were in use well before then, some believe as early as the first century CE. If New Testament writings were to be excavated from Cave 7, it would change the dating controversy.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 25, 2009 - 06:03pm PT
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Probably no point in discussing the new testament in a creationism thread eh?
Jesus never spoke much, if any, about the importance of anything like the origins of man or the world.
The gospel of John talks about origins in ways we can disagree on, (like everything originating from "the word" which some say means "Jesus" and others might speculate is the original vibration from the divine source. But nowhere is said that Jesus taught this.
For that matter, the origins of life and early stories like the flood have no clear attribution in the old testament. Very similar stories are also contained in the epic of Gilgamesh, which has very early manuscripts. The first five books of the Bible are commonly attributed to Moses but no scholar believes that since they are written in very different writing styles, detail Moses own death and refer to him as the humblest man in the world, and contain dual conflicting stories (which scholars believe to be the result of reconciling traditions after Israel and Judea were split after Solomon.
The Bible really doesn't make much of a point in believing anything in particular about origins or creation, I can't really see why Christians would. The creation stories are clearly metaphors for something the people at the time couldn't understand so why be bothered? Doesn't anyone really want to make the case that women originated from one rib of a man or that man was created from dirt? Isn't that even worse than coming from a monkey?
Peace
Karl
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 25, 2009 - 08:53pm PT
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So, Largo,
you would agree, Christianity is pure poppycock, they don't Talk to Jesus or God, they talk to their higher self
and if there is a God, he does not intervene in personal ways to save them and so on
I think you are getting turned around by the idea that "God" is somehow a "thing" that is "other there" rather than an aspect of your fundamental nature.
JL
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 25, 2009 - 09:04pm PT
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MH2
climber
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Oct 25, 2009 - 10:41pm PT
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Ed H:
I'm still trying to figure out if posting to this thread is "in the interest of science"
Your posts are in the interest of, pardon my un-evolved ego, me.
And many other posters.
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MH2
climber
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Oct 25, 2009 - 11:31pm PT
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In addition to whether animals can have consciousness or a soul, what about machines?
Anyone here read Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, including her preface to the 1831(?) edition?
A thought experiment:
I've had the curious experience of lowering a micro-electrode into bits of central nervous system and listening to the voltage near the tip, a mysterious thrum and purr of electrical activity reflecting potential changes across the nearby cell membranes.
Neurons usually produce a large trans-membrane voltage spike when they want to say something. Put a micro-electrode near that neuron and you can hear its story.
Imagine you could record from every neuron in a person's brain every moment of their life. Number the neurons from 1 to 10 billion or thereabouts in a vertical list and show their electrical activity stretching out to the right as if in a book or table.
What would you be missing? Answers to that question can direct other questions when it comes to thought, consciousness, awareness, reality, spirituality, and the mechanism of action of the OH radical.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 25, 2009 - 11:33pm PT
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Karl- " Modern bible scholars who follow academic, not blind faith, methods, do not believe the Gospels were written by the folks whose names were on them".
On the contrary, many modern bible scholars who do use academic, not blind faith, methods, believe the Gospels were written by the names of the people found on them.
Karl- "but that is not meeting Jesus in the flesh as I had stated."
I included Paul in the discourse because he was an associate of Luke, whom accompanied Paul on several of his missionary journeys. Luke used a very methodical,and observation based approach (what you would expect from a doctor) in writing Luke and Acts.
Karl- "If Bin Laden were to claim to have been struck down by Jesus and had become a Christian and yet emphasised different things than Jesus did, would you make him an apostal"?
I don't have the authority to make anyone an apostal, only the 12 origional apostals held that authority.
And I am not so sure that what Paul emphasised was so different from what Jesus preached.
I admire your adherence to the core beliefs and teachings of Jesus Karl, but would not it be considered "blind faith" to give them any connection to Jesus at all if "none of it was written by Jesus, none of it was written while Jesus was still alive. And much of it was written far from Jerusalem, and much of it was written by Paul and his followers who never met Jesus, and relied on sources we dont know" as you have suggested.
And I realise this is the exact point you are attempting to prove. But I recall you declaring your admiration of the beliefs of the 'Jesus of the Gospels' in another thread.
There is an certain amount of faith required to believe many things, crossing a bridge for instance (also trust). And it is healthy to question and come to reasonable conclusions as to bolster or doubt your belief/trust. And I welcome the thought, insight, and candid conversation you inspire which will help searchers in their quest for truth.
Perhaps, since it requires a small amount of 'faith' to know God, He purposely made sure the documented proof of the authors in question were left off of the orrigional documents.
Thankyou for your patience, I was out all day and have just recenly returned and immediatly responded to your last post.
Thanks Again. Peace and Love in Christ.
Sincerely, John.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 26, 2009 - 12:55am PT
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Hi John (TripL7)
We can agree to disagree about the state of scholarship regarding Gospel authorship. I'd love to see some documentation from you in the form of some link because I've studied this in detail. I can't find any serious scholar who believes the synoptic gospels were written by Matthew, Mark and Luke.
But yet, perhaps we shouldn't waste our time with it since indeed, looking at the core of the Gospels we find a Jesus extolling unconditional Love, tolerance, charity to the poor and even enemies, and non-judgement.
Its a tragedy that the Christian right isn't clambering to argue and defend these principles instead of latching onto gay marriage and theories of evolution versus creation. Putting Love on the banner instead of moralisms about the sins of others would go a long way toward bringing the blessings of Jesus to the world.
Peace
Karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 26, 2009 - 02:02am PT
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Karl!
The author of the Gospel of John does not identify himself by name but his identity can be determined learned by the dialogue recorded in 21:19-24.
The author calls himself "the desciple whom... Jesus loved" (21:20), a designation that occurs four other times in the book (13:23; 19:26; 20:2; 217). This was the same "disciple who...wrote these things" (21:24).
The author had to be one of the twelve apostles, because he is described as leaning on Jesus' bosum at the Last Supper, an event to which only the apostles were invited (13:23; see Mark 14:17).
The Gospel of John has many touches that that appear to reflect the recollections of an eyewitness such as the house at Bethany being filled with the fragrance of the broken perfume jar (12:3)
The author new Jewish life well as seen to references to popular Messianic speculations (1:21, 7:40-42), to the hostility between the Jews and the Samaritans (4:9) and to Jewish customs, such as the duty of circumcsion on the eigth day taking precedence over the the prohibition of working on the Sabbath. (since it would have been considered work to have performed a circumcision on the Sabbath, should it have fallen on that day).
He new the geography of the Holy Land, locating Bethany about 15 stadia (about 2 miles) from Jerusalem (11:18) and mentioning Cana a village not referred to in any earlier writings known to us (2:1; 21:12).
He could not be Peter, because 21:20 states that Peter looked back and and saw this one Jesus loved, and in another place asked a question of him (13:23, 24).
On the other hand James was martyred too early to be the author of this Gospel (see Acts 12:1, 2).
The conclusion is supported by early Christians such as Polycarp (A.D. 60-1550, who was a follower of John), and early writers such as Irenaeus and Tertulian say that John was the writer. And many more wrter's, such as Ignaatius agree.
The auther of the epistle 1 John states withen the first few verses (1:1-4) the author places himself among the eyewitnesses of the earthly life of Christ, as one who literaly saw and touched "the Word of life."
Obviously such a description fits an apostle but not a second generation church leader.
Thus it is reasonable to conclude that this Gospel is written by John.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 26, 2009 - 02:26am PT
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Karl!
I fully agree.
I was typing my last post and just now read yours about agreeing to disagree, I am glad you suggested that.
And I likewise, agree that it would be nice if the 'Christian Right' did indeed put "Love on the Banner".
Well said my brother.
Peace and Love to you Karl.
Sincerely, John.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 26, 2009 - 02:59am PT
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Hi John
Glad we are aligned on what really matters.
Like you though, I did some research on your previous post before reading your last one so I post this excerpt from Professor Bart Ehrman of chapel Hill regarding gospel authorship
"...A further reality is that all the Gospels were written anonymously, and none of the writers claims to be an eyewitness. Names are attached to the titles of the Gospels ("the Gospel according to Matthew"), but these titles are later additions to the Gospels, provided by editors and scribes to inform readers who the editors thought were the authorities behind the different versions. That the titles are not original to the Gospels themselves should be clear upon some simple reflection. Whoever wrote Matthew did not call it "The Gospel according to Matthew." The persons who gave it that title are telling you who, in their opinion, wrote it. Authors never title their books "according to."
Moreover, Matthew's Gospel is written completely in the third person, about what "they"—Jesus and the disciples—were doing, never about what "we"—Jesus and the rest of us—were doing. Even when this Gospel narrates the event of Matthew being called to become a disciple, it talks about "him," not about "me." Read the account for yourself (Matthew 9:9). There's not a thing in it that would make you suspect the author is talking about himself.
With John it is even more clear. At the end of the Gospel the author says of the "Beloved Disciple": "This is the disciple who is testifying to these things and has written them, and we know that his testimony is true" (John 21:24). Note how the author differentiates between his source of information, "the disciple who testifies," and himself: "we know that his testimony is true." He/we: this author is not the disciple. He claims to have gotten some of his information from the disciple.
As for the other Gospels, Mark was said to be not a disciple but a companion of Peter, and Luke was a companion of Paul, who also was not a disciple. Even if they had been disciples, it would not guarantee the objectivity or truthfulness of their stories. But in fact none of the writers was an eyewitness, and none of them claims to be...."
Peace
Karl
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 26, 2009 - 12:08pm PT
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Matt. 3:(16)-17, (And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him;) and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”
Matt. 17:5, He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.”
Ex. 33:20, But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.”
John1:18, No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
Ex. 33:11, Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend.
Heb. 1:1, Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets,
Gen. 32:30, So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered.”
Heb. 1:2-(3), but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. (He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.)
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 26, 2009 - 01:32pm PT
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Karl- "As for the other Gospels, Mark was said to be not a disciple but a companion of Peter,"
Mark is mentioned ten times in the new testament. His Jewish name was John (Acts 13:5, 13), but his Roman name was Mark(Acts 12:12,25: 15:37). He lived in Jerusalem and was a cousin of Barnabas (Col. 4:10).
He might have been the youth wearing the linen cloth at Jesus arrest (Mark 14:51), because only his, the Gospel of Mark, mentions this incident, which occurred after all the disciples had already fled.
The fact that the Apostle Peter announced his miraculous jail escape at the home of Mary, Mark's widowed mother (Acts 12:12) indicates Mark had significant contact with Peter and the other leaders of the Jerusalem church.
In A.D. 46, Mark spent time with Barnabas and Saul in the Antioch Church before he accompanied them as a helper on the first missionary journey.
Mark also helped Peter in "Babylon" (1 Peter 5:13).
Peter was Mark's primary informant. Most agree that Mark wrote his Gospel in Rome under Peter's supervision.
Mark wrote his Gospel for Gentile Christians, especially Romans. Who were facing persecution and martyrdom. He was attempting to guide and strengthen them through Nero's terrible persecutions.
The authors of the Gospels did not attach there names to them because they were already well known to the recipients.
Numerous documents from the early Church unanimously point to Mark as the author. The Roman Prologue to Mark dating 160-180 A.D. names Mark as the author.
And Irenaeus, in France in 180 A.D. announced claimed that Mark had wrote down Peters teachings. This is repeated by Tertullian and Clement of Alexandria, both in North Africa around 200 A.D.
Mark constantly uses the present tense to create the impression of an eyewitness, the kind presented as from an on the spot reporter.
He uses rhetorical questions that readers would likely ask themselves, such as, "Who can this be, that even the wind and the sea obey Him (4:41).
There are hundreds of modern day scholars, university professors and theologens with doctorates, who attest to the authenticity of the origional authors.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 26, 2009 - 02:28pm PT
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Dr.F- "are you a Repub. or a Dem?"
Perhaps I am unpatriotic, but I chose not to vote during the last Presidential election.
There were issues I agreed with and didn't agree with on both sides.
And besides, you have to take what is being promissed with a grain of salt.
Both sides make promises they cannot keep.
I was against going into Irac(sp.) from the get go. I felt and expressed that sentiment to who would ever listen, that it was a big mistake. I lived through the debacle that was NAM.
I beleive there is a time for war and a time for piece. That Irac (sp?), nor Viet Nam were the time for war.
And further more the middle east is much more complex than, Viet Nam.
I believe the 'Church' has thrown it self in bed with the neocon's/secular right/etc., or what ever else you want to refer to current day political trends and leaning's.
I can identify with Karl Baba's thought's, regarding the Christian Right and the "Banner of Love" etc.
What did Jesus say regarding politics? "Give to Ceasar what belongs to Ceasar..." (taxes).
There are Christians on both sides. Do you think Peter is going to be standing at the 'Pearly Gates' checking your voter registration? Hardly not.
That whole 80's hard stand Moral Majority, aligning itself with one party did not reflect the teachings of Christ (my opinion). And where has it gotten itself? Right back to where it was.
"Faith, Hope, Love....and the greatest of these is Love".
Didn't see much Love in the '80's and 90's, or now for that matter.
Peace & Love, John.
I am not saying we should not vote, on the contrary.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 26, 2009 - 02:56pm PT
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Nice post just above regarding politics John. Love transcends parties and polemics.
Dr. F. those are interesting arguments but suppose that God has some agenda of making this earth a nice place to live. That's like assuming climbing is supposed to be perfectly safe and that an FA team should put ample bolts in all sketchy areas.
What if we assume differently, that life is a learning, evolving experience where our pain, mistakes and energy reflect ourselves and guide us to change from within? Heck, this could be a prison planet for all we know, for dirtbag souls!
Peace
Karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 26, 2009 - 02:57pm PT
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navblk4!
Jesus brought the new covenant, of Grace and salvation for everyone, with His once and for all times Sacrifice.
His coming, death and resurection, was predicted for over 1,000 years prior to it's occurence.
I am not adding anything to the book of Rev.
Jesus was the Word. And "the Word became Flesh and dwelt among us." What are you saying? What are your belief's?
What were you talking about upthread when you said there are no Bibles since 1950? that contain "In the beggining was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"... I didn't put that in the bible!! The Bible authors did. I did not add anything to the book of Rev. I am quoting the Book of John.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 26, 2009 - 03:07pm PT
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Isaiah 40:(21)-22, (Do you not know? Do you not hear?
Has it not been told you from the beginning?
Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?)
22. It is He who sits above the CIRCLE OF THE EARTH,
It was the scientist that said it, the earth was flat!
When God created us there wasn't any illness and death!
Man's higher self, without God is still like a filthy garment...
Isaiah 64:6, We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
We all fade like a leaf,
and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Proverbs 11:28, He who trusts in his riches will fall,
But the righteous will flourish like foliage. (NKJ)
God is the fundamental reality!
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Oct 26, 2009 - 03:33pm PT
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speaking in tongues is fore-play in my book.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 26, 2009 - 03:36pm PT
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Look at a climbing route, it starts from the bottom up?
Well it's put together a move at a time!
God made everything in order!
Also like a painting, the painter builds it up,
God is the creative force!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 26, 2009 - 03:42pm PT
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Gen 3:14-19,
The Lord God said to the serpent,
“Because you have done this,
cursed are you above all livestock
and above all beasts of the field;
on your belly you shall go,
and dust you shall eat
all the days of your life.
I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and her offspring;
he shall bruise your head,
and you shall bruise his heel.”
To the woman he said,
“I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children.
Your desire shall be for your husband,
and he shall rule over you.”
And to Adam he said,
“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife
and have eaten of the tree
of which I commanded you,
‘You shall not eat of it,’
cursed is the ground because of you;
in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;
and you shall eat the plants of the field.
By the sweat of your face
you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust,
and to dust you shall return.”
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 26, 2009 - 03:48pm PT
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Karl's post is totally on topic for a change. This is creationism in a nutshell. What he is basically saying is that since we can't know everything about the universe, why should we bother to ask questions about it? It's just too complicated for us simple humans to understand, and besides, even if we thought we understood, it could just all be an illusion. Rather than spend billions on particle accelerators, wouldn't it be so much easier to just open the Holy Book, which already has all the answers we'll ever need?
I happen to believe that human are smart enough (at least some humans) to understand our universe. Not every individual will understand everything about everything, but some individuals can know at least part of every subject. We will never, ever learn all there is to know. All we can do is keep exploring our universe and marvel at the wonder of it.
Let's imagine a bunch of Animals, living in a zoo, evolved a higher intelligence and could speak to each other but humans couldn't grasp it.
The religious animals might adopt the monkey's view, who could see and talk best, that humans were Gods, that the zoo was intelligently designed, and that following man's laws (like not biting the cage-keepers) would result in safer-better life.
The scientific animals might observe and conclude that food came in daily timed cycles, that humans were not nocturnal, and so on.
To complicate it, perhaps scientists are off in a corner of the zoo, changing the DNA of the animals and that's what made them smart enough to start this train of thought.
It's madness to think we know how this world and humans came about. Maybe God created some sentient and powerful beings and we're their science experiment, like the zoo animals are subject to an environment which is both natural and contrived, and who are both natural and genetically modified. Who really knows?
It's madness to think that science has a handle on the BIGGEST mysteries out there, which it doesn't yet have the slightest tools to consider, or even suspect lie beyond the boundaries and dimensions we have discovered so far.
It's madness to think that, even if the prophets and saviour(s) from 2000-3000 years ago knew the deepest mysteries of God and the universe, that they had any way of conveying those to the populace at the time, who couldn't understand squat.
The mystics in more modern times, and ancient as well, who have said they have seen very deeply into these biggest mysteries, have admitted that ultimately the "biggest" truth is beyond labeling with words and concepts, that our minds are limited in their use and scope to the apparent dimension of physical reality that we exist in.
You can think of Rational thought as a computer operating system that functions very well within the scope that it has programming for, but can't see or conceptualize beyond those limits.
For all we know, the physical universe could be a speck among billions of others, or the whole shebang could be merely existing as a dream in the mind of the ultimate consciousness.
Think that's crazy? Sounds crazy but everything you experience is ONLY experienced through your consciousness. Because of that, there is NO absolute proof that anything exists in the way we think it does. Everything comes to us through our awareness so it's entirely possible that awareness is all that exists.
And even if we put that aside, all the mass in the whole earth, according to science, could be squashed in a black hole to the size of less than a tennis ball. So even if science knows more, scientists as people are still seeing the whole in an illusory fashion based on the limitations of our senses.
Why don't we all just admit that the big picture, and biggest picture, are huge mysteries? Science and religion would both have more credibility if they stuck with how much they really know so far.
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 26, 2009 - 03:55pm PT
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Dr. F, there were people who understood the world to be round for a very long time, longer than 600 years, such as the ancient Greeks.all people believed that the world was flat, until 600 years ago, and many scientists were beheaded for blasphemy for saying that earth was a sphere
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 26, 2009 - 04:06pm PT
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Brian Hench- "Karl's post is entirely on topic for a change".
Karl Baba- President
Brian Hench- Vice President
Werner Braun- Minister of Higher Learning
Dr.F.- Chief of Defence (in Your Face)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 26, 2009 - 04:20pm PT
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"Karl, are you advocating that God is part of a conspiracy, that doesn't let us in on the information that would save us, keeps hidden, and as soon as we get close, escapes to some new location, to keep hidden
God is up there making all these judgement calls on every aspect of our lifes, don't tell them this or that, punish that guy, let those babies go to hell, since they didn't except Jesus
Judgement calls on every little piece of knowledge, and very active in staying hidden, is that your god."
I think your assessment frames God in very human terms.
It's like a kid blaming Mom and Dad for having to go to school and not feeding him cookies and cake as the entirety of dinner.
It's like blaming the Sun for burning people. Most of the energy for life on Earth on the physical level comes from the Sun and one day it's going to kill us all if we last that long. Is the Sun good or evil?
Are you a monster for what happens in your dreams? Do your dream characters blame you for dreaming them?
What if everything possible exists and we're just on the short end of the party?
What if Life reflects our own state of being and the experiment is to see if we'll learn and discover how to live with ourselves and unfold the mystery of existence? So what if it's hard as hell like a wall in Pakistan?
Folks can complain all they like but both science and religion would do well to look deeply without preconceptions about what the immensity of the mystery holds
Peace
Karl
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 26, 2009 - 04:31pm PT
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Is the change from a baby to child to an adult evolution or just growth?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 26, 2009 - 04:32pm PT
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"What he is basically saying is that since we can't know everything about the universe, why should we bother to ask questions about it?"
I never said such a thing. In mysticism and science both, we should learn and explore all we can. Just be careful about saying what any bottom line is, cause there's always something beyond it.
Just as there was something beyond Newtonian physics, even though they are true within their realm.
I understand why folks get pissed off at religion. A lot of folks are doing the opposite of religion in religion's own name. It's hard to let go of the past.
Still, even in science there is now a "God" even though they don't call it that. According to science, everything is just forms of the same vibrating energy. Science seriously suspects all these forces are unified although proof doesn't link everything yet.
Doesn't the fact that everything is made of the Energy make that Energy the default God until science determines more about the nature and dimensions of that Energy? The same people who claim that the universal energy has no awareness and consciousness are the same people who claim our own consciousness is simply the result of electrical energy firing in our brains. Who is to say the universe isn't the brain of a higher awareness that we don't understand? Of course thinking the vast universe, that take light billions of years to traverse at lightning speed, was created by a simple, petty, human thinking creature is madness. So what? A committee of 4 year olds would be bound to misunderstand the motives, lives and powers of their parents.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 26, 2009 - 04:38pm PT
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"Karl, why do we need a god then, is it just to evolve towards better humans"
The saying "Man is created in God's own image" in my experience, means that God is pure awareness and that Man, at the soul level, is pure awareness as well. We share the same essence.
This being the case, we need God because God is the most essential part of our own being. We can't distance ourselves from God without distancing ourselves from our own consciousness. It's not a matter of "needing" God but of needing to get in touch with our true nature beyond the cloud of self concepts that we spin in our own minds that make us angry petty selfish unhappy beings.
I don't think God needs us in any way. I don't think we even need the idea of God. We simply have to get our inner space under control and yet psychology is one science that's still in the dark ages in many ways.
Peace
Karl
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
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Oct 26, 2009 - 04:55pm PT
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-Is the change from a baby to child to an adult evolution or just growth?-
Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny. The pattern of evolution is right out in the open.
As per the whole tree of knowledge thing; I just don't get why "god" would put a "tree" that bore fruit which would allow the consumer to become self aware & creative in the middle of creation if "he" didn't expect someone to eat it. And how did the snake know this? Seems like if you believe this whole scenario, you believe that "god" wanted us to be stupid & ignorant. We've already got that in spades, and some philosophies seem to embrace that more than others...
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 26, 2009 - 05:03pm PT
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Have No Fear
“So have no fear of them, for nothing is covered that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops. And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.
By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. We love because he first loved us. If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 26, 2009 - 05:10pm PT
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Fatrad- Could happen but your gonna hafta git Mr. Braun on that ticket.
Prez-Fatrad
V.P.-Russ
???-Werner
A conference is in order (Largo-Chairmen)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 26, 2009 - 05:17pm PT
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Dr. F
Your projections regarding the order and energy of the universe are simply limited and based on assumptions. You don't know if information is conveyed by gravity, what the nature of Dark Energy is, or what dimensions of energy have yet to be discovered by science.
Yes, Christianity and every belief system including science has plenty of poppycock as we are infants in the universal level of things. That's our reality of how are we have evolved and what we have to work with.
No need to prove anything to you. You're just fine as you are. If you are happy with yourself and your life, party on. If something is missing or you sense something sweeter to discover, then you might look within.
One thing is pretty clear to an honest person. Our happiness is experienced within and external blessings like money, beauty and fame are no guarantee of fulfillment. Yet if your heart is full of unconditional Love, that is a much more reliable source of happiness and satisfaction. Science has made us safer and healthier but also threatened us with advanced weapons dealing every form of death and pollution. Learning science has many benefits but making you truly happy is far from assured or even likely.
Therefore, as a practical person, I have pursued mysticism, as gleaned but not dictated from many traditions including Christianity, as a means of getting the most from Life. Intuitive knowledge of dimensions science has yet to address is simply a side effect of gravitating to Love and inner mental peace. I don't care who believes it or not and don't even believe it matters what you think.
It's who you are, your state of Being and your Heart that matters.
Peace
Karl
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 26, 2009 - 05:28pm PT
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Karl Baba,
Beautifully penned and much of what is in my heart and mind that I could not wrap my brain around.
Yes, if you are joyful, fulfilled, at peace despite the huge up and down swings that life sends.....Great. If you sense some incompleteness, lack, missing piece in the puzzle of your heart... even a slight dis ease somewhere then one must pursue and identify. If not, your life will never be lived to the fullest. Answers are out there. It's the pursuit that's so very important. And don't believe for a minute a better car, home, job, a more understanding spouse, more talent etc.. will give you the answers. It begins in the heart and soul and manifests itself outward. imho, Lynne
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 26, 2009 - 05:28pm PT
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"But God does nothing, except in the minds of people, so we can't understand him, which brings up the obvious, he is just a figment of our imagination.
Karl, what does God do?"
God dreams us. We are figments of God's imagination just as the cats in your dream are actually you. You might say therefore, that God does everything including bitching about God.
Reality is ultimate consciousness' way of exploring itself. (maybe, but not really, but just a pale pointer to an ineffable mystery)
Peace
Karl
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 26, 2009 - 05:36pm PT
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The child is perfect at every stage, but can't stay the same.
The "Age of Accountability"
The following article is adapted from John MacArthur's response during a Q&A session at Grace Church. Much of what John says here has been expanded in his book, Safe in the Arms of God .
What is the Scriptural basis for an "age of accountability" regarding a child's salvation?
I think the best way to answer that is to say this: There is no "age of accountability" identified in Scripture, as such. There is nothing in the Bible that says, "Here is the age and from here on you are responsible!" I think the reason for that is because children mature at different paces. That would be true from culture to culture, and from age to age in history.
So the Lord in His wisdom didn't identify a specific moment. God knows when each soul is accountable. God knows when real rejection has taken place; when the love of sin exists in the heart. When enmity with God is conscious and willful. God alone knows when that occurs.
The Jews had identified about the age of twelve, and that was when Jesus was taken by His parents to Jerusalem for the Passover and the Feast, and there He was in the temple questioning the doctors. You have a good illustration there, and Jesus was asking profound questions at that point. This then seems to be the age when those kinds of questions begin to be personal in the heart of a child.
So I have always felt that somewhere around age twelve, the transition from childhood to adulthood takes place. It's probably not totally disassociated from puberty, where there is a consciousness of one's own impulses, feelings, drives, desires, and therefore sinful attitudes and passions, and whatever else starts to emerge.
With this in mind, I believe that it is absolutely essential, all along the way with children, that every time they desire to make a commitment to Jesus Christ, at whatever age, you (as someone giving spiritual oversight to them) encourage them to do that. Because you don't know, we can't know, when their desire is indicative of genuine saving faith. When a young child says, "I want to invite Christ into my life," then you need to encourage them to do that. Every one of those, I see as a step towards God. At what point that becomes saving faith -- only God knows for certain.
But, I also believe, that up until that point of real saving faith, God in His mercy, would save that child, should that child die. I have been doing some study on that very issue, because when I was at a conference recently, and that question was asked of a panel of very astute theologians -- no one gave an adequate answer. And I thought, "How can we have theologians who don't know the answer to that question? What about the children before the age of accountability, when they die, do they go to heaven?" I think the answer is "yes," and I think it is a strong "YES," based upon the confidence of David who said, when his little baby died: "He cannot come to me, but I shall go to him." And David knew where he was going; David knew he was going to heaven -- he knew that. There wasn't any question in his mind about that.
So when he said, "I shall go to him," in those words was the anticipation and the joyful hope of reunion. Now, some people have said, "Well, all he meant was, 'I am going to be buried next to him.'" There wouldn't be any reason to say, "He can't come to me, but, oh I'm so glad I am going to be buried next to him!" There would be no joy in that; that wouldn't satisfy anything. So I think at that point, he was expressing the confidence that he was going to heaven; he knew that was where he would find his son, who had died before the age of accountability.
Another interesting thing that occurs numerous times in the Old Testament, is that children (including those who die) are referred to as "innocent." The Hebrew word that is used for "innocent" is used numerous times in the Old Testament to refer to "not being guilty" -- literally, "being taken to court and found 'not guilty.'" In fact, the OT refers to the babies that were passed through the fire to Moloch [false god] as the "innocents," so I believe that God, prior to the "age of accountability" treats them as "innocent." It doesn't mean that they are not fallen; it doesn't mean that they are not sinful -- it does mean that God mercifully treats them as "innocent" in spite of that, and He has to exercise grace to do that, just as He exercises grace to save those who believe.
In summary, the "age of accountability" is not clearly identified in Scripture. I think it's up to parents; every time a child wants to respond and open the heart to Christ -- you need to encourage that, all the way along, until they come to that point where it is genuine, and the Lord knows that even if you don't.
When you say no to Christ, you have made a choice!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 26, 2009 - 05:43pm PT
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Christianity and every belief system including science...
Ah, the old 'level the playing field' tactic of attempting to make religion and science just equivalent belief systems. Complete tripe, they are not.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 26, 2009 - 06:05pm PT
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Dr.F.- "Science only provided knowledge to man and men made political decisions to use the bombs, and not care about the pollution we emit".
Excellent point.
We use oil in our rides to get from point A-B.
And then go and pour it down the nearest drain.
Or out at sea.
ETC.
Sad.
Very Sad.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 26, 2009 - 06:51pm PT
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Dr.F.- "So God killed 4 million Jew's, told Bush to invade Iraq"
Hitler killed 6 million Jew's, not God.
Bush and his cabinet made the decision to invade Baghdad. With the support
of the majority of the USA (largely secondary to false info).
Not God.
Just because he claimed to be a Christian and....
Son of Sam (David Berkowitz) Said that Satan told him to kill...
So, let's say you are at a parole hearing for David B. are you going to say let him go, the devil said he could do it?
Or, if your daughter was one of his victims are you going to be angry with the devil because he told him to do it?
Just a thought- If that is the case, maybe Satan did have something to do with the Holocaust! Some say Hitler did seem to become possessed when he spoke.
And the Jews are still Gods chosen people. Perhaps Satan was attempting to derail Gods plan to return the Jews back to the Promised Land as prophesied in the Old Testament (which happened in 1948)'
Hitler is still guilty. He chose to follow through.
Why are you always blaming God for the action's/decisions of man?
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 26, 2009 - 06:54pm PT
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Because if God loved his children he would prevent bad things from happening to innocents, like the Jews dying during the holocaust. He is supposedly all powerful, he could intervene. But apparently he'd rather let them die.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 26, 2009 - 07:19pm PT
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Dr.F.!
My humble apologies.
John.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 26, 2009 - 07:28pm PT
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Jan,
Thank you for your inquiry about Brian Thomas’ article entitled "Did humans evolve from Ardi?" I forwarded your comments and questions to him (in italics), and he has agreed to reply (between the "A" & "Q") below:
Your article, "Did humans evolve from Ardi?" based on "creation research" http://www.icr.org/ is a masterpiece of selective and out of context quotations about the data and its interpretation through the use of scientific method. Much could be said, but here's a list of the specific errors I spotted.
Was my article based on “creation research,” or based on the data? We would invite specific examples of ICR’s use of quotations out of context, as we generally take great pains to avoid this very flaw.
Errors:
Q1 Ardipithecus' body structure shows no objective or undisputable transition toward uniquely human features.
A The uniquely human characteristic that Ardi shows is upright walking dated at 4.4 million years. Brian Thomas mentions upright walking and then goes on to ignore it.
(Was this “upright walking” recorded on video? Did the scientists have a time machine to verify it, or its date? Was the “use of scientific method” employed to test Ardi walking? If so, I would need help identifying such items as empirical hypotheses and experimental results. All I noticed in the Ardi research was observation and speculation – which is actually appropriate, given the fact that historical (forensic), not empirical techniques are all that can be applied to fossils.
Of course, space limitations in that article precluded further discussion of Ardi walking. However, a November Acts & Facts article here did address this. [You may want to wait for this to become available before taking further action. It will be posted on our website and become searchable prob’ly next week.] Even other evolutionists doubt that Ardi walked. One reason she probably did not was that her anatomy was overall well suited for tree life. Another is that she did not have the human hip structure which orients our knees forward. Ardie’s “walk” was likely a monkey-like wobble, rarely used.)
Q2 In the eleven papers in Science, the word “probably” appeared about 78 times, and “suggest,” “suggesting,” “suggestive,” or “suggests” were used 117 times, among other terms that are associated with an unsubstantiated story rather than a scientific description.
A We are dealing with a 4.4 million year old fossil, not some dead cat that's just been dissected. Of course we don't know everything there is to know about Ardi yet and at least scientific method is honest enough to admit this.
(So, where is the error here? I never claimed that we know everything about Ardi. Rather, I implied that the authors indulged in speculation that went far beyond the data.)
Q3 If Ardi is presumed to be a human ancestor, then the century-long concept that has been taught as virtual fact—that humans evolved from a chimpanzee-like creature (based most recently on the strength of a supposed 99 percent agreement between their genome sequences)—must be discarded!
A No scientific work on evolution has ever claimed that humans are descended from chimpanzees or even chimpanzee-like ancestors. We share a high similarity in our genes (98%) because we have a common ancestor. Modern chimps are different and more specialized than 4.4 million old chimps just as modern humans are more specialized for ground dwelling than was Ardi.
(Chimpanzee-like is ape-like, since chimps are a subset of apes. Thus, the first assertion is a red herring. Second, perhaps we share 98% of our genes because we have a common designer. Is there any scientific evidence that refutes this possibility? Doesn’t the fact that we have almost the same gene identity with kangaroos as we have with chimps argue against the common descent hypothesis? Other observations also lend support to the common designer hypothesis: We have many more differences in non-genic, regulatory sequences than we have among genes. Further, many of the regulatory sequences that are unique to man are irreducibly complex, thus indicating manufacture by intent.
I agree with the comment on specializations. However, I know no example of de novo structures required for these specializations having been built by nature alone.)
Q4 The Ardipithecus foot has its big toe “thumb” projecting strikingly sideways, which is hardly human-like. Nor are its other foot bones like those of chimps and gorillas, which have specially flexible feet that enable them to climb vertical tree trunks.
A This simply proves that the common ancestor of both Ardi and the apes was both less human like and less apelike than the modern varieties of either. What is surprising is that it is possible to have an opposable thumb and walk upright as this has not been seen before.The fact that the modern human foot is more functional for permanent ground walking is a good illustration of the fact that in 4 million years, evolution of the foot has occured.
(Also surprising is the failure to recognize that upright walking with an opposable thumb has still never before been seen. See question 1 response. The confident use of “proves” and “fact” in this context are entirely dependent on the assumption of evolution. Other than believing in evolutionary history, where is the actual data that supports the supposed facts, and what experiments or observations or argument prove common ancestry over common designer?)
Q5 if Ar. ramidus is presumed, a priori, to be an evolutionary antecedent of apes and humans.
A Nobody but Brian Thomas is assuming that A. ramidas was an evolutionary antecedent to apes. Both A. radius and apes had a common ancestor.
(This is another red herring which leapfrogs my original point – that broad-scale evolution must be presumed because it is not borne out by the Ardi data.)
Q6 Bipedality expert C. Owen Lovejoy wrote, “We can no longer rely on homologies with African apes for accounts of our origins and must turn instead to general evolutionary theory.”
A Lovejoy is merely emphasizing this point. From Darwin on, it has been a principle of evolution that older fossils are less specialized to specific environments than more modern ones.
(Where was the error? Was this quote taken out of context? If so, in what way? The context apparent to me was that Lovejoy was pointing out that the widespread failure of so many attempts at constructing human ancestry phylogenies using African apes indicated that a substitute ancestor ought to solve all those problems (Ardi). However, the failures of prior phylogenies, taken together with the widespread doubt among scientists (other than Ardi publishers) as to if or how Ardi fits in, may just indicate that the whole human evolution scheme is incorrect. If the data do not line up with the theory, then it’s time to change the theory.)
The real mystery here is why someone goes to such lengths to misinterpret scientific findings to try to force them into a particular creation account which was never meant to be a scientific explanation in the first place? True research proceeds with an open mind, "creation research" is only interested in distorting the data to try to force it into a preconceived conclusion. Far from helping, this kind of biased reasoning only drives more and more people away from religion every year.
(Perhaps I can offer this to resolve the “real mystery.” Science seems to have little to do with these discussions, since neither Ardi nor events in Genesis can be subjected to repeatable tests. They both involve history. And Ardi is interpreted according to an evolutionary history that is in direct conflict with certain earth and stellar processes, as well as with Genesis history. Either man-made evolutionary history with its deep time and nature-as-creator was true, or Genesis history with its short time and God-as-creator is true. Either require faith. Given all the data (popular opinion notwithstanding), it seems that the former requires a leap of faith into the dark, and the latter a step of faith into the light.
I agree totally that true research follows the evidence where it leads. I see in the Ardi research, however, several aspects of forcing data into evolution, some of which are highlighted in my Ardie articles. As such, wouldn’t these Science authors be just as guilty of forcing data as any other investigator?
And last, is it objectively true that I used biased reasoning, or did that description come from a particular bias?)
For more information about this and other topics of interest, visit www.icr.org. For books, DVDs, and other resources, visit www.icr.org/store.
If you haven’t done so already, sign up for ICR’s free monthly magazine Acts & Facts.
Thank you again for your interest.
Bruce Wood
Communications Liaison
Institute for Creation Research
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 26, 2009 - 07:34pm PT
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"Science did not build nuclear bombs and drop them, science did not pollute this earth
Science only provided knowledge to man, and men made political discisions to use the bombs, and not care about the pollution we emit"
Men created science and all scientists are humans. You might say that men who labor day and night using all their genius on new and more extreme ways to kill large groups of people bear no responsibility for what is done with their weapons. You can say that those who invent chemicals that turn out to poison the world don't bear responsibility for what they create.
That's not much different than excusing the fundamentalist extremist religious folks for teaching that unbelievers must die but who don't command the armies or terrorists who act on those teachings.
If science wants a higher ground, perhaps they should take better control of the power of their knowledge rather than being the whores of dictators, fascists and power grabbing kings and presidents.
Like I said before, even under science, we are all made of the same thing and all connected. All the cells in your body are replaced every 7 years.
It's our human judgement that death is bad, suffering is bad, and whether God is to blame or not. If we saw a bigger picture, perhaps the question and judgement is moot.
Peace
Karl
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 26, 2009 - 07:35pm PT
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Dr. F many people have limited capabilities to live withouth the guidance of God or religion. You and I have the capability to build our belief systems from the ground up and determine for ourselves why it's beneficial to act in a moral ways and to determine our purpose in life. There are billions of people on the planet who in the absense of the fear of god would probably act in evil ways. Sure many people abuse religion and use it to justify evil actions, but there are probably many many more people who follow the commandments and other religous doctrine and lead more moral lives because of it. It's just that the evil acts get the publicity and attention, so it seems more prevalant than the good acts of religous people.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 26, 2009 - 07:39pm PT
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 26, 2009 - 07:43pm PT
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Creation research is only evolution debunking, and is a complete fraud
There is no science of creation, only trying to put holes in the theory of evolution, as propaganda
Worth repeating.
There is no intellectual growth with creationism. As I stated before, everything about creationism that there is to know was devised several thousand years ago. Nothing new can ever be learned or more importantly, nothing can ever be disproven by adherents. They either disregard or outirght lie about any new evidence about the origins of life.
It is an intellectually stagnant and dishonest discipline.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 26, 2009 - 07:56pm PT
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dirtbag!
I have struggled with that one myself.
An extremely sad time in the history of modern made.
God did turn around, what Satan meant for bad for the good.
Israel, was birthed in 1948, as a gift to the Holocaust survivors.
I was reading some of the conversations in Auschwitz, that were documented. Questions they were asking God. Made me weep.
You say he doesn't care? Because He doesn't intervene.
When should He intervene and not. Where does he draw the line.
You say he should stop having bad things happen to innocents.
Say at 911 I would imagine all the of the 3,000 who died were innocent.
The only people that should have died that day would have been the 19 Arab hijackers.
I supposed He could have arranged that, people all walking away from the rubble and why even bother wearing seat belt or wear a bullet proof vest, only evil people die.
It doesn't mean He doesn't love them any less than you or me.
He loves them very much. Grieves like a motherless child, when she has lost her only child. At least that is what it tells us in the Good Book.
If they are below the age of accountability they go to be directly with Him.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 26, 2009 - 08:00pm PT
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It doesn't mean He doesn't love them any less than you or me.
Bullpucky. If you saw your children dying and suffering you would do everything in your power to stop it. If you didn't, especially if it's in your power to do so, I would question your love. Vice versa too.
God is supposedly pretty powerful. Knocking a few Nazi heads to set them straight should be no big deal.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 26, 2009 - 08:15pm PT
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But no one believes in fairy tales, by definition. Except maybe Celtic neo-pagans. But here we have a story that seems so incredibly convincing to so many people, who want to share it with everyone else, whether they're interested or not. It really is fascinating the extent to which disbelief can be suspended by otherwise perfectly normal, functioning members of society, when others who have their own more idiosyncratic delusions are called schizophrenic and either medicated or locked up.
Dr. F, ever read any R. D. Laing?
"They are playing a game. They are playing at not playing a game. If I show them I see they are, I shall break the rules and they will punish me. I must play their game, of not seeing I see the game."
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 26, 2009 - 08:17pm PT
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Yes. Given a (christian) god who is allegedly benevolent, omniscient and omnipotent, it's very hard to explain a lot of stuff that happens.
Those religions that go in for grumpy gods don't have this problem. It's fascinating that the marketing departments of most religions come up with similar strategies in terms of how people are supposed to behave. Their beliefs are all over the place, though.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 26, 2009 - 08:37pm PT
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dirtbag!
One of my favorite classes at SJSU (1992)was Kinesiology, the study of the anatomy, physiology, and mechanics of body movement in humans.
I recall a joke that was part of her repertoire of jokes each year. It was about an ape that was trained to do some basic functions.
And she would joke and say that all it needed was opposition, along with the evolutionary process and then our jobs would be in jeopardy.
Can't recall why our specific jobs would be in jeopardy.
Regardless.
Opposition of the thumb to the index, middle,ring and small finger is opposition.
And was what she felt, and according to her at that time most scientist agreed, was the missing link in regards to ape to man evolution.
Are familier with this function ands its applications in regards to biomechanics, and development?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 26, 2009 - 08:54pm PT
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God said get wisdom and understanding, is that not intelligence?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 26, 2009 - 09:00pm PT
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Just then, TJ WASHINGTON, a somber-looking African American in a
bathrobe, taps COLE on the shoulder.
TJ WASHINGTON
I don't really come from outer space.
JEFFREY
This is TJ Washington, Jim -- he
doesn't really come from outer space.
TJ WASHINGTON
Don't mock me, my friend.
(to Cole)
It's a condition of "mental divergence".
I find myself on another planet, Ogo,
part of an intellectual elite, preparing
to subjugate barbarian hordes on Pluto.
But even though it's a totally convincing
reality in every way...I can feel, breathe,
hear...nevertheless, Ogo is actually a
construct of my psyche. I am mentally
divergent in that I am escaping certain
unnamed realities that plague my life
here. When I stop going there, I will
be well. Are you also divergent, friend?
http://www.scifiscripts.com/scripts/twelvemonkeys.txt
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 26, 2009 - 09:32pm PT
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Have to post debunking the "bible code" while I'm at it
Klimmer's going to be really disappointed.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 26, 2009 - 09:55pm PT
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Dr.F.!
You are missing the point, God is very grieved about the condition/state of man, He wasn't punishing us. Regarding 911.
Like I said you tend to somehow, for what ever reason (I understand you do not believe any of it) blame God for some reason.
I guess you some how heard someones 'rationale' and took it as gospel truth believed by all Christians.
Life is playing it self out here on planet earth, and if He does not intervene the whole planet, or at least mankind will be annihilated by atomic warfare.
This is mans choice not his.
He is letting all knowing, all intelligent mankind come to the fate it brings upon itself. Why should He intervene? No one, that is, almost no one, believes in Him anyway.
As I stated away up thread. If He chose not to intervene, at Armageddon, mankind would destroy itself, and He would have no choice but to start all over again.
He loves us to much, so according to the Bible He will intervene then.
It does say that if man turns from it's wicked way's.....that He will hear their prayer's and heal their land. Old Testament 2 Chronicles 7:13 "When I shut up heaven and there is no rain........".
Well, frankly that hasn't happened since the day's of Elijah, (turn from evil) and I don't expect it to happen in America, or anywhere else on this planet ever again.
Bleak you say?
Look at the state of America.
You can go ahead an get your rose tinted sunglasses, or whatever color they are and say that's all bogus, everything is fine.
It's a bleak picture, look at America.
I choose to simply tell people how much he loves them and let them choose for themselves. You agree, great, it is a simple prayer, and then most likely I never see the person again. Why? Because it was on an airplane, or at a bus stop etc.
It is laid out very clear, hundreds of prophecies have come true. Israel in 1948 is the timeline set down by Christ, Daniel, and Ezekiel.
I have heard three different people in the last week state that Christ claimed He was going to return ASAP-False!
He makes it clear that it would be a generation after the return of the Jews to the Promised Land, and they got back the Old City of Jerusalem. That happened in 1967. Incredible miracle. Seven Day War. No one came to their aid. God wanted it that way. He did it. Egypt Jordan, Syria, Lebanon etc.
It is playing it self out now.
It is prophesied that Iran an Russia, along with Libya, will form a confederacy against Israel. This is the next big war. It will not be Armageddon. Armageddon will happen 7 yrs. later.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 27, 2009 - 12:19am PT
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Romans 10:3, For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.
Isaiah 64:6, We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
We all fade like a leaf,
and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 27, 2009 - 12:50am PT
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GOD IS A SINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!1111
Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
Exodus 34:14
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions.
Galatians 5:19-20
He who does what is sinful is of the devil (1 John 3:8)
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apogee
climber
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Oct 27, 2009 - 12:53am PT
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Man, and they call us politi-tards a bunch of whack-jobs...you guys take the cake.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 27, 2009 - 12:54am PT
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If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off.
1 Cor. 11:6
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
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Oct 27, 2009 - 12:55am PT
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܀ ܡܬܝ ܐ ܀
1ܟ݁ܬ݂ܳܒ݂ܳܐ ܕ݁ܺܝܠܺܝܕ݂ܽܘܬ݂ܶܗ ܕ݁ܝܶܫܽܘܥ ܡܫܺܝܚܳܐ ܒ݁ܪܶܗ ܕ݁ܕ݂ܰܘܺܝܕ݂ ܒ݁ܪܶܗ ܕ݁ܰܐܒ݂ܪܳܗܳܡ܂ 2ܐܰܒ݂ܪܳܗܳܡ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܺܐܝܣܚܳܩ ܐܺܝܣܚܳܩ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܝܰܥܩܽܘܒ݂ ܝܰܥܩܽܘܒ݂ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܺܝܗܽܘܕ݂ܳܐ ܘܠܰܐܚܰܘܗ݈ܝ܂ 3ܝܺܗܽܘܕ݂ܳܐ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܦ݂ܰܪܨ ܘܰܠܙܰܪܚ ܡܶܢ ܬ݁ܳܡܳܪ ܦ݁ܰܪܨ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܚܶܨܪܳܘܢ ܚܶܨܪܽܘܢ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܳܐܪܳܡ܂ 4ܐܳܪܳܡ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܥܰܡܺܝܢܳܕ݂ܳܒ݂ ܥܰܡܺܝܢܳܕ݂ܳܒ݂ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܢܰܚܫܳܘܢ ܢܰܚܫܽܘܢ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܣܰܠܡܳܘܢ܂ 5ܣܰܠܡܳܘܢ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܒ݂ܳܥܳܙ ܡܶܢ ܪܳܚܳܒ݂ ܒ݁ܳܥܳܙ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܥܽܘܒ݂ܺܝܕ݂ ܡܶܢ ܪܳܥܽܘܬ݂ ܥܽܘܒ݂ܺܝܕ݂ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܺܐܝܫܰܝ܂ 6ܐܺܝܫܰܝ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܕ݂ܰܘܺܝܕ݂ ܡܰܠܟ݁ܳܐ ܕ݁ܰܘܺܝܕ݂ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܰܫܠܶܝܡܳܘܢ ܡܶܢ ܐܰܢ݈ܬ݁ܬ݂ܶܗ ܕ݁ܽܐܘܪܺܝܳܐ܂ 7ܫܠܶܝܡܽܘܢ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܰܪܚܰܒ݂ܥܰܡ ܪܚܰܒ݂ܥܰܡ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܰܐܒ݂ܺܝܳܐ ܐܰܒ݂ܺܝܳܐ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܳܐܣܳܐ܂ 8ܐܳܣܳܐ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܝܳܗܽܘܫܳܦ݂ܳܛ ܝܳܗܽܘܫܳܦ݂ܳܛ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܝܽܘܪܳܡ ܝܽܘܪܳܡ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܥܽܘܙܺܝܳܐ܂ 9ܥܽܘܙܺܝܳܐ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܝܽܘܬ݂ܳܡ ܝܽܘܬ݂ܳܡ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܳܐܚܳܙ ܐܳܚܳܙ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܚܶܙܰܩܝܳܐ܂ 10ܚܶܙܰܩܝܳܐ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܰܡܢܰܫܶܐ ܡܢܰܫܶܐ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܰܐܡܽܘܢ ܐܰܡܽܘܢ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܝܽܘܫܺܝܳܐ܂ 11ܝܽܘܫܺܝܳܐ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܝܽܘܟ݂ܰܢܝܳܐ ܘܠܰܐܚܰܘܗ݈ܝ ܒ݁ܓ݂ܳܠܽܘܬ݂ܳܐ ܕ݁ܒ݂ܳܒ݂ܶܠ܂ 12ܡܶܢ ܒ݁ܳܬ݂ܰܪ ܓ݁ܳܠܽܘܬ݂ܳܐ ܕ݁ܶܝܢ ܕ݁ܒ݂ܳܒ݂ܶܠ ܝܽܘܟ݂ܰܢܝܳܐ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܫܶܠܰܬ݂ܺܐܝܠ ܫܶܠܰܬ݂ܺܐܝܠ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܙܽܘܪܒ݁ܳܒ݂ܶܠ܂ 13ܙܽܘܪܒ݁ܳܒ݂ܶܠ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܰܐܒ݂ܺܝܽܘܕ݂ ܐܰܒ݂ܺܝܽܘܕ݂ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܶܐܠܝܳܩܺܝܡ ܐܶܠܝܳܩܺܝܡ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܥܳܙܽܘܪ܂ 14ܥܳܙܽܘܪ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܙܳܕ݂ܽܘܩ ܙܳܕ݂ܽܘܩ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܰܐܟ݂ܺܝܢ ܐܰܟ݂ܺܝܢ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܶܐܠܺܝܽܘܕ݂܂ 15ܐܶܠܺܝܽܘܕ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܶܐܠܺܝܥܳܙܳܪ ܐܶܠܺܝܥܳܙܳܪ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܡܳܬ݂ܳܢ ܡܳܬ݂ܳܢ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܝܰܥܩܽܘܒ݂܂ 16ܝܰܥܩܽܘܒ݂ ܐܰܘܠܶܕ݂ ܠܝܰܘܣܶܦ݂ ܓ݁ܰܒ݂ܪܳܗ ܕ݁ܡܰܪܝܰܡ ܕ݁ܡܶܢܳܗ ܐܶܬ݂ܺܝܠܶܕ݂ ܝܶܫܽܘܥ ܕ݁ܡܶܬ݂ܩܪܶܐ ܡܫܺܝܚܳܐ܂ 17ܟ݁ܽܠܗܶܝܢ ܗܳܟ݂ܺܝܠ ܫܰܪܒ݁ܳܬ݂ܳܐ ܡܶܢ ܐܰܒ݂ܪܳܗܳܡ ܥܕ݂ܰܡܳܐ ܠܕ݂ܰܘܺܝܕ݂ ܫܰܪܒ݁ܳܬ݂ܳܐ ܐܰܪܒ݁ܰܥܶܣܪܶܐ ܘܡܶܢ ܕ݁ܰܘܺܝܕ݂ ܥܕ݂ܰܡܳܐ ܠܓ݂ܳܠܽܘܬ݂ܳܐ ܕ݁ܒ݂ܳܒ݂ܶܠ ܫܰܪܒ݁ܳܬ݂ܳܐ ܐܰܪܒ݁ܰܥܶܣܪܶܐ ܘܡܶܢ ܓ݁ܳܠܽܘܬ݂ܳܐ ܕ݁ܒ݂ܳܒ݂ܶܠ ܥܕ݂ܰܡܳܐ ܠܰܡܫܺܝܚܳܐ ܫܰܪܒ݁ܳܬ݂ܳܐ ܐܰܪܒ݁ܰܥܶܣܪܶܐ܂ 18ܝܰܠܕ݁ܶܗ ܕ݁ܶܝܢ ܕ݁ܝܶܫܽܘܥ ܡܫܺܝܚܳܐ ܗܳܟ݂ܰܢܳܐ ܗܘܳܐ ܟ݁ܰܕ݂ ܡܟ݂ܺܝܪܳܐ ܗ݈ܘܳܬ݂ ܡܰܪܝܰܡ ܐܶܡܶܗ ܠܝܰܘܣܶܦ݂ ܥܰܕ݂ܠܳܐ ܢܶܫܬ݁ܰܘܬ݁ܦ݂ܽܘܢ ܐܶܫܬ݁ܰܟ݂ܚܰܬ݂ ܒ݁ܰܛܢܳܐ ܡܶܢ ܪܽܘܚܳܐ ܕ݁ܩܽܘܕ݂ܫܳܐ܂ 19ܝܰܘܣܶܦ݂ ܕ݁ܶܝܢ ܒ݁ܰܥܠܳܗ ܟ݁ܺܐܢܳܐ ܗ݈ܘܳܐ ܘܠܳܐ ܨܒ݂ܳܐ ܕ݁ܰܢܦ݂ܰܪܣܶܝܗ ܘܶܐܬ݂ܪܰܥܺܝ ܗ݈ܘܳܐ ܕ݁ܡܰܛܫܝܳܐܝܺܬ݂ ܢܶܫܪܶܝܗ܂ 20ܟ݁ܰܕ݂ ܗܳܠܶܝܢ ܕ݁ܶܝܢ ܐܶܬ݂ܪܰܥܺܝ ܐܶܬ݂ܚܙܺܝ ܠܶܗ ܡܰܠܰܐܟ݂ܳܐ ܕ݁ܡܳܪܝܳܐ ܒ݁ܚܶܠܡܳܐ ܘܶܐܡܰܪ ܠܶܗ ܝܰܘܣܶܦ݂ ܒ݁ܪܶܗ ܕ݁ܕ݂ܰܘܺܝܕ݂ ܠܳܐ ܬ݁ܶܕ݂ܚܰܠ ܠܡܶܣܰܒ݂ ܠܡܰܪܝܰܡ ܐܰܢ݈ܬ݁ܬ݂ܳܟ݂ ܗܰܘ ܓ݁ܶܝܪ ܕ݁ܶܐܬ݂ܺܝܠܶܕ݂ ܒ݁ܳܗ ܡܶܢ ܪܽܘܚܳܐ ܗܽܘ ܕ݁ܩܽܘܕ݂ܫܳܐ܂ 21ܬ݁ܺܐܠܰܕ݂ ܕ݁ܶܝܢ ܒ݁ܪܳܐ ܘܬ݂ܶܩܪܶܐ ܫܡܶܗ ܝܶܫܽܘܥ ܗܽܘ ܓ݁ܶܝܪ ܢܰܚܶܝܘܗ݈ܝ ܠܥܰܡܶܗ ܡܶܢ ܚܛܳܗܰܝܗܽܘܢ܂ 22ܗܳܕ݂ܶܐ ܕ݁ܶܝܢ ܟ݁ܽܠܳܗ ܕ݁ܰܗܘܳܬ݂ ܕ݁ܢܶܬ݂ܡܰܠܶܐ ܡܶܕ݁ܶܡ ܕ݁ܶܐܬ݂ܶܐܡܰܪ ܡܶܢ ܡܳܪܝܳܐ ܒ݁ܝܰܕ݂ ܢܒ݂ܺܝܳܐ܂ 23ܕ݁ܗܳܐ ܒ݁ܬ݂ܽܘܠܬ݁ܳܐ ܬ݁ܶܒ݂ܛܰܢ ܘܬ݂ܺܐܠܰܕ݂ ܒ݁ܪܳܐ ܘܢܶܩܪܽܘܢ ܫܡܶܗ ܥܰܡܰܢܽܘܐܝܺܠ ܕ݁ܡܶܬ݁ܬ݁ܰܪܓ݁ܰܡ ܥܰܡܰܢ ܐܰܠܳܗܰܢ܂ 24ܟ݁ܰܕ݂ ܩܳܡ ܕ݁ܶܝܢ ܝܰܘܣܶܦ݂ ܡܶܢ ܫܶܢܬ݂ܶܗ ܥܒ݂ܰܕ݂ ܐܰܝܟ݁ܰܢܳܐ ܕ݁ܰܦ݂ܩܰܕ݂ ܠܶܗ ܡܰܠܰܐܟ݂ܶܗ ܕ݁ܡܳܪܝܳܐ ܘܕ݂ܰܒ݂ܪܳܗ ܠܰܐܢ݈ܬ݁ܬ݂ܶܗ܂ 25ܘܠܳܐ ܚܰܟ݂ܡܳܗ ܥܕ݂ܰܡܳܐ ܕ݁ܺܝܠܶܕ݂ܬ݂ܶܗ ܠܰܒ݂ܪܳܗ ܒ݁ܽܘܟ݂ܪܳܐ ܘܰܩܪܳܬ݂ ܫܡܶܗ ܝܶܫܽܘܥ܂
܀ ܡܬܝ ܒ ܀
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 27, 2009 - 12:59am PT
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Cover up your excrement so that God will not turn away from you.
Deut. 12-14
The priest is to burn all of the bull on the altar. It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an aroma pleasing to the Lord.
Lev. 1:9
Then the Lord awoke as from sleep, as a man wakes from the stupor of wine.
Psalm 78:65
The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees ... So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. "Quick," he said, "get three seahs of fine flour and knead it and bake some bread." ... While they ate, he stood near them under a tree.
Gen. 18:1-8
This is what the Lord says: "Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight."
Sam. 12:11
He spilled his semen on the ground. What he did was wicked in the Lord's sight; so he put him to death also.
Gen. 38:9-10
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 27, 2009 - 01:12am PT
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Anyone who does not love his brother [is of the devil]. (1 John 3:10)
Go back and forth killing your brother and friend and neighbor (Exod. 32:27)
Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. (1 Peter 5:8)
Like a lion I will devour them. (Hosea 13:8)
God so loved the world . . . (John 3:16)
I will wipe humankind . . . from the face of the Earth. (Gen. 6:7)
Love your enemies (Luke 6:27-28)
Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them. (Num. 25:16-17)
Love does no harm to its neighbor (Rom. 13:10)
He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the Lord, the God of Israel, had commanded.(Josh. 10:40)
God is love. (1 John 4:16)
Kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man (Num. 31:17)
Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me. (Mark 9:37)
Put to death men and women, children and infants (1 Sam. 15:2-3)
[The devil] was a murderer from the beginning. (John 8:44)
Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children (Ezek. 9:6)
[The devil] is a liar and the father of lies. (John 8:44)
Put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. (1 Kings 22:23)
For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone (James 1:13)
[He] tempted Abraham (Gen. 22:1)
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. (John 10:10)
Pursue, kill and completely destroy them. (Jer. 50:21)
He who does what is sinful is of the devil (1 John 3:8)
Do not leave alive anything that breathes (Deut. 20:16)
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 27, 2009 - 01:13am PT
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Dr.F.!
I agree the Bible Code is a hoax. But then I don't know much about it.
Actually people in the church agree that global climate change is probably caused by man. They no llonger think it was a hoax. They, like every one else are doing what they can. They are keeping a close eye on it and hoping it will improve.
I would rather talk about climbing and whatever. I don't have much interest in politics. I agree it is important, and I am glad we have a two party system to keep things balanced.
I hope things just mosey on along, there are allot of things I would like to do. Hopefully get back up to the Valley and the East Side, where I lived for most of the 70's and the early 80's.
I am a photog./hobby. I shoot large format, 5X7, 8X10 mainly B&W. May be I will see you around. Would love to take your portrait.
Bought a truck and cab over camper, like George M. had from @'76'-'79. George would have everyone pizz on his tires, said it kept the bears away(told me that it was an old Indian Trick).
Hope I didn't rub anyone the wrong way with that last post. Just had to tell you the Truth as far as I know it. I have been studying the Bible for about every day for over thirty yrs.
Rarely talk about 'religion' unless someone brings it up.
I think the best thing I heard here, is what Karl Baba said about agreeing to disagree, and flying 'The Banner of Love'.
Peace!
Sincerely, John.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 27, 2009 - 01:31am PT
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Wanda!
Your post is a wonderful illustration of the old covenant and the new covenant.
The Old Testament - Old Covenant
The New Testament - New Covenant
The Old covenant = Law
The New covenant = Grace
God has never tempted anyone it is against his nature/sin.
God tested Abraham.
The Satan tempted Eve. He also tempted Jesus when he had been fasting for forty-days.
Be very careful with what you read.
There is a huge difference between tempting and testing.
When you take a test in high school you are not being tempted, you are being tested.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 27, 2009 - 01:34am PT
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Wanda!
You will notice that all of Jesus/New Testament verses
were of love, peace, forgiveness, which is the new covenant.
All the verses on the bottom are old testament verses when they were conquering Canaan (the promised land they were a small tribe and had to fight for it. That was the old Covenant God of Israel only.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 27, 2009 - 01:56am PT
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All this bullsh'it about love.
Do you even understand the full implication of LOVE?
Yes, we should love everyone and forgive even though at times we really don't want to due to real injustices towards us or others.
But God's love is perfect
He will kick your ass when you get out of line.
That's real love .......
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
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Oct 27, 2009 - 02:04am PT
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1
ashem vohû...(1 u 3). fravarâne mazdayasnô zarathushtrish vîdaêvô ahura-tkaêshô, hâvanêe ashaone ashahe rathwe ýasnâica vahmâica xshnaothrâica frasastayaêca, sâvanghêe vîsyâica ashaone ashahe rathwe ýasnâica vahmâica xshnaothrâica frasastayaêca.
2
âthrô ahurahe mazdå puthrahe tava âtarsh puthra ahurahe mazdå xshnaothra ýasnâica vahmâica xshnaothrâica frasastayaêca.
3
ýathâ ahû vairyô zaotâ frâ-mê mrûtê, athâ ratush ashâtcît haca frâ ashava vîdhvå mraotû.
ashem vohû...(3). ýathâ ahû vairyô...(2).
4
frastuyê humatôibyascâ hûxtôibyascâ hvarshtôibyascâ mãthwôibyascâ vaxedhwôibyascâ varshtvôibyascâ, aibigairyâ daithê vîspâ humatâcâ hûxtâcâ hvarshtâcâ, paitiricyâ daithê vîspâ dushmatâcâ duzhûxtâcâ duzhvarshtâcâ.
5
ferâ vê râhî ameshâ speñtâ ýasnemcâ vahmemcâ ferâ mananghâ ferâ vacanghâ ferâ shyaothanâ ferâ anghuyâ ferâ tanvascît hvah'yå ushtanem.
6
staomî ashem, ashem vohû vahishtem astî ushtâ astî ushtâ ahmâi hyat ashâi vahishtâi ashem(3)!
7
fravarâne mazdayasnô zarathushtrish vîdaêvô ahura-tkaêshô, hâvanêe ashaone ashahe rathwe ýasnâica vahmâica xshnaothrâica frasastayaêca, sâvanghêe vîsyâica ashaone ashahe rathwe ýasnâica vahmâica xshnaothrâica frasastayaêca, rathwãm ayaranãmca asnyanãmca mâhyanãmca ýâiryanãmca saredhanãmca ýasnâica vahmâica xshnaothrâica frasastayaêca.
8
ahurahe mazdå raêvatô hvarenanguhatô ameshanãm speñtanãm mithrahe vouru-gaoyaotôish râmanasca hvâstrahe,
9
hvarexshaêtahe ameshahe raêvahe aurvat-aspahe, vayaosh uparô-kairyehe taradhâtô anyâish dâmãn, aêtat tê vayô ýat tê asti speñtô- mainyaom, razishtayå cistayå mazdadhâtayå ashaonyå daênayå vanghuyå mâzdayasnôish,
10
mãthrahe speñtahe ashaonô verezyanguhahe dâtahe vîdaêvahe dâtahe zarathushtrôish darekhayå upayanayå daênayå vanghuyå mâzdayasnôish zarazdâtôish mãthrahe speñtahe, ushi-darethrem daênayå mâzdayasnôish vaêdhîm mãthrahe speñtahe, âsnahe xrathwô mazdadhâtahe gaoshô-srûtahe xrathwô mazdadhâtahe,
11
âthrô ahurahe mazdå puthrahe tava âtarsh puthra ahurahe mazdå mat vîspaêibyô âterebyô, garôish ushi-darenahe mazdadhâtahe ashahvâthrahe,
12
vîspaêshãm ýazatanãm ashaonãm mainyavanãm gaêthyanãm, ashâunãm fravashinãm ukhranãm aiwithûranãm paoiryô-tkaêshanãm fravashinãm nabânazdishtanãm fravashinãm xshnaothra ýasnâica vahmâica xshnaothrâica frasastayaêca!
13
(zôt,)
ýathâ ahû vairyô zaotâ frâ-mê mrûtê,
(râspî,)
ýathâ ahû vairyô ýô zaotâ frâ-mê mrûtê, (zôt,)
athâ ratush ashâtcît haca frâ ashava vîdhvå mraotû. ashem vohû...(3).
14
xshnaothra ahurahe mazdå tarôidîte angrahe mainyêush, haithyâvarshtãm hyat vasnâ ferashôtemem. ashem vohû...(3)!
15
ýathâ ahû vairyô athâ ratush ashâtcît hacâ
vanghêush dazdâ mananghô shyaothananãm anghêush mazdâi
xshathremcâ ahurâi â ýim drigubyô dadat vâstârem(4)!!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
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Oct 27, 2009 - 02:12am PT
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بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَـٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ
2 الْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ
3 الرَّحْمَـٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ
4 مَالِكِ يَوْمِ الدِّينِ
5 إِيَّاكَ نَعْبُدُ وَإِيَّاكَ نَسْتَعِينُ
6 اهْدِنَا الصِّرَاطَ الْمُسْتَقِيمَ
7 صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ غَيْرِ الْمَغْضُوبِ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا الضَّالِّينَ
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 27, 2009 - 02:13am PT
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Mighty Hiker-
I know Vancouver is multi-cultural but a Norwegian turned Canadian becoming a Zoroastrian?
Really!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 27, 2009 - 02:14am PT
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And now your latest post shows that you have seen the error of your ways and have become a Muslim?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 27, 2009 - 02:14am PT
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Wait I get it!
You're actually a Bahai?
That way you can revere both Zoroastriaism and Islam.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
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Oct 27, 2009 - 02:21am PT
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Canadian, and parents Canadian also. Though as much of Norwegian ancestry as anything.
I thought it would be fun to post the beginning parts of the holy books of several religions, with Zoroastrianism of course being at the base of the monotheistic religions. You got Zoroastrianism and Islam; I wonder if anyone will figure out the first one? And there are some good ones to come.
As all these various holy books are supposed to be revealed truth, whatever their murky roots, it seemed apropos to post a bit from each - though history, oral tradition, and transmission probably haven't helped any of them. One wonders what the supposed founders of any of these religions would make of it all.
Either that, or it's part of my Quran-Avesta Code book project.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 27, 2009 - 02:45am PT
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My misunderstanding about ethnicity due to other posts. You've got two generations up on my sister and and one on my brother-in-law in Vancouver.
Meanwhile, I applaud the idea of paying respect to all religions, not just the Christian and Atheist faiths so far discussed on this thread.
I was lost on the first posting however. Then again, I've never been good with numbers.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 27, 2009 - 03:13am PT
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Werner!
Yes I am aware, that is why I am stressing His Love now Werner, for we are under the Covenant of Grace right now.
It will not last for ever as a matter of fact it will becoming to an end somewhere about halfway through the Tribulation.
Love is Just one of His attributes of which He has many. Righteousness, Mercy, Peace, Justice etc.
He will be a God of Judgement at the Great White Thrown Judgement. In which
He will send, sinners to the Lake of Fire which was meant only for the devil and his angels.
I was responding to Wanda, because because Wanda was suggesting that Jesus
was contrary to what He is described in the new Testament by displaying the God of Israelites of the Old Testament.
AS I have already stated two totally different covenants.
The Old Testament Covenant was Israel- And God was the God of only Israel.
They had to they were given the Promised Land all of Canaan and had to conquer the land. God instructed them on how to do it.
We are under a new Covenant of Grace now and as the two new Commandments state.
"The rich young ruler asked what must I do to get into Heaven? Jesus answered "You must first love the Lord your God with all your heart with all your soul and with all your mind,and with all your strength. And the second is much the same You must love your neighbor as yourself".
Iam fully aware of God's wrath and Vengence and have dealt with His Anger in my life. I pushed His patience to the limit and paid dearly for it.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 27, 2009 - 03:35am PT
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Werner- "But God's love is perfect he will kick your ass"
That's right and it is for your own good.
It is called chastisement!
"For whom the Lord Loves He chastens, and scourges every son He receives"
I have personally learned the hard way many times.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 27, 2009 - 04:08am PT
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"Christian and Atheist faiths"
Another equivalency attack. Atheism, in a wild stretch, is only a 'faith' in the same way not believing in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy is a 'faith'.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 27, 2009 - 04:11am PT
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WBraun!
I know how you feel Werner, I am starting to get on my own nerves, so I think I'll take a break for a few day's.
Peace!
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Oct 27, 2009 - 08:26am PT
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your religion is a shortcut to clarity. to greatness.
its like riding a chopper to the summit instead of climbing there.
thus your position is false among the stars.
you don't belong there. you aren't there.
something for nothing. hence the grand attraction to the masses.
if only it stopped there. other zealous fuks fling their opinions around
on fluffy bullets and bombs invading and eradicating those of different ideas.
you all are fooled by life.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 27, 2009 - 12:07pm PT
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Dr. F, I've seen plants like that in Namibia, though they weren't flowering. Thanks again for your wonderful photos.
Christopher Hitchens talks about his recent public debates with Christians:
http://www.slate.com/id/2233586/
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 27, 2009 - 12:32pm PT
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Survival is only one aspect of it, Dr. F. Propagation is the fundamental requirement of natural selection. Those plant's forebearers not only had to survive, but they had to survive long enough to produce seed.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 27, 2009 - 02:16pm PT
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2009 - 05:28pm PT
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How come god had to "rest" on the seventh day? Was she tired, needed a nap?
Why did it take god six entire days to create the earth?
Surely she could have done this with a blink of her eyes, like on "Bewitched"
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 27, 2009 - 05:29pm PT
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The way I see it Dr. F, God doesn't judge us, we judge ourselves as our own inner consciousness witnesses everything we do, including our motives.
That why, when Jesus says "Judge not, lest ye be judged" he's only pointing to the automatic process that's built into all our minds. We judge others and ourselves in the same breath and invite our own retribution on an subconscious level. Look within and you'll see your life reflects our own attitudes toward yourself. You don't need to include God in this equation if you don't want.
But quit making assumptions about how some projected God must be. Obviously the old time religions tended to oversimplify the nature of God
The only reason I'm still posting to this thread is to encourage others not to throw the baby out with the fundamentalist bathwater. No matter what, all us humans are stuck wrestling with the mystery of our own existence. Not to do so is about as dull as life could be. Of course, that should include a knowledge of what science says about it too.
Whether you believe science or religion, the world is absolutely nothing like we see it with our senses. That's worth chewing on
Peace
Karl
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 27, 2009 - 05:49pm PT
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The problem with reality of the universe is that it's very complicated and difficult to understand. It's full of apparent paradoxes.
The universe doesn't seem very friendly to humans. It would be much better to have a world that was made specifically for us and another place for us to go when we die.
In our minds we can have exactly that which comforts us the most. Our construct of reality doesn't change reality. The universe is what it is.
We each go about finding about reality in different ways.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
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Oct 27, 2009 - 06:51pm PT
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My first post was some of the new testament of the bible, in the original Syriac/Aramaic. I thought it would add to the textual/historical discussion we've been having. And here's a nice bit from another syncretistic religion. (Actually, they're all syncretistic.)
ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ
ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
And so that everyone's on an equal footing, I suggest that the following naming conventions be adopted for the various belief systems.
Christianism.
Islamism.
Fascism.
Judaism.
Communism.
Sikhism.
Buddhism.
LEBism.
Hinduism.
Warblerism.
Neo-conservatism. (If it's a belief, rather than an illness.)
Zoroastrianism.
Atheism.
Agnosticism.
Fattyism.
Liberalism.
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 27, 2009 - 06:57pm PT
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It's really convenient to get to pick and choose what you believe.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 27, 2009 - 07:04pm PT
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"Karl, You are not a Christian, I can see why you sympathise with them, but it is good for them to put their beliefs under a little scrutiny.
According to them, you will never go to heaven, and are a sinner for having mystical beliefs, and have not surrendered to Jesus
I think you should join us in pointing their faulty understanding of God"
I think I've been encouraging everyone to question their understandings. For folks who even follow the letter of any religion, each has their own individual understanding and perspective. For folks that study science, concepts of reality are still not the same as the thing itself. Perhaps we put way too much emphasis on what we think and believe and so we fight about it.
That's unfortunate because my experience is that, when their brains aren't tweaked about something, everyone endeavors to be a good person and is fine to get along with.
PEace
Karl
PS If Fatty gets on the ticket, I'll vote for him...that's not an endorsement though. If reality bends that far backwards, I'll go with it!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
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Oct 27, 2009 - 07:11pm PT
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I completely forgot Dr. Fism, and Nortonism. And maybe some others.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 27, 2009 - 08:14pm PT
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"GOD IS A SINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!1111
Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
Exodus 34:14
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions.
Galatians 5:19-20
He who does what is sinful is of the devil (1 John 3:8"
Well if God is God whatever He does is not sin, He's the Boss! But He made us and wants us to put Him first in are own life's. When we are jealous we want what others have, and that is saying that God is not taking care of us! We should rejoice that He wants us to want Him that much!
“Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand." The devil can't do what God does!
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Oct 27, 2009 - 08:33pm PT
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Gobee. Try reading another book. It'll be good for you. Quoting from th bible all the time like you do is inane and does not advance this thread one bit.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 27, 2009 - 08:38pm PT
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*"If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off.
1 Cor. 11:6 "
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1 Cor. 11:4-5 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven.(ESV)
*1 Cor. 11:6, For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head.(ESV)
That was for the customs of the day.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 27, 2009 - 08:45pm PT
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Mighty Hiker-
It seems the reason your first posting seemed so mysterious is that my computer can not display Syriac or Aramaic. What appears on my computer is a long series of squares only, punctuated with numbers 1-25 and commas. I thought you were posting some kind of computer code??
Meanwhile your latest is some form of Sanskrit based alphabet. Since you mention syncretistic I'll guess Sikh and that it's from the Granth Sahib.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 27, 2009 - 08:56pm PT
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Dr. F.
Since Mighty Hiker and I are having fun playing with linguistics and religion, I would like to point out the connection between religion and writing systems. One of the many good aspects of religion is that the various agricultural age religions are responsible for bringing literacy to whole civilizations through their missionary efforts.
Roman Alphabet = Roman Catholicism = civilizing the northern tribes of Europe, many of whom invaded Rome
Greek Alphabet = Eastern Orthodox = Greeks teaching the Slavs how to read and write. The Cyrillic Alphabet gets its name from St. Cyril , a Greek Orthodox missionary to the Slavs.
Arabic = Islam and the first writing system for many Middle Eastern and central Asian nomads, also isolated islands in S.E. Asia.
Sanskrit = Hinduism and Buddhism everywhere in Asia they appear except for the Chinese character writing countries.
Chinese characters = The Japanese only learned to read and write after Buddhist missionaries from China and Korea came to Japan in the 7th century.
This is a formidable legacy which vastly improved the lot of the majority of humankind, unless of course you are too biased to see it.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 27, 2009 - 09:06pm PT
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"Sanskrit = Hinduism and Buddhism everywhere in Asia they appear except for the Chinese character writing countries."
Actually the original language of Buddhism was Pali, which was a locally spoken descendent of Sanskrit, which was already a priestly language hundreds of years BC. Buddha was a reformer (much like Jesus) who spoke the language of the people instead of the exclusive code of the Elite. He also bypassed the power of the religious authorities of the time in favor of everyman.
Peace
Karl
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 27, 2009 - 09:12pm PT
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Karl-
You are right, the original language of Buddhism was Pali and still today, the southern Buddhist countries of the Theravada/Hinayana school use Pali while the others use Sanskrit. Both use alphabets based on Sanskrit.
Also a very good point about Buddha's social role being very similar to that of Jesus. If you substitute Brahmin for Pharisee and Untouchable/Dalit for Samaritan, the social scene in the New Testament suddenly becomes comprehensible to both Hindus and Buddhists.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 27, 2009 - 09:18pm PT
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Dr. F -
The language of science is mathematics, one of the more obscure writing codes around and actually understood by very few.
Meanwhile, it's good to know that you are against all religions, not just fundamentalist Christianity.
I suspect that you have never lived for any length of time in a community practicing a non Christian religion, or you might hold a different view. Not all religions are the same, and I think if you ever studied Buddhist or Hindu, especially Vedanta philosophy, you would find your mind suitably challenged.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 27, 2009 - 09:20pm PT
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"Cover up your excrement so that God will not turn away from you. Deut. 12-14"
What chapter? But I want to turn away from POOP!
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"The priest is to burn all of the bull on the altar. It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an aroma pleasing to the Lord. Lev. 1:9
An Old Testament sacrifice for sin that showed mans repentance, Jesus is the only way now!
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"Then the Lord awoke as from sleep, as a man wakes from the stupor of wine. Psalm 78:65"
Psalm 78
40 How often they rebelled against him in the wilderness
and grieved him in the desert!
41 They tested God again and again
and provoked the Holy One of Israel.
42 They did not remember his power
or the day when he redeemed them from the foe,
43 when he performed his signs in Egypt
56 Yet they tested and rebelled against the Most High God
and did not keep his testimonies,
57 but turned away and acted treacherously like their fathers;
they twisted like a deceitful bow.
58 For they provoked him to anger with their high places;
they moved him to jealousy with their idols.
59 When God heard, he was full of wrath,
and he utterly rejected Israel.
65 Then the Lord awoke as from sleep,
like a strong man shouting because of wine.
66 And he put his adversaries to rout;
he put them to everlasting shame.
67 He rejected the tent of Joseph;
he did not choose the tribe of Ephraim,
68 but he chose the tribe of Judah,
Mount Zion, which he loves.
69 He built his sanctuary like the high heavens,
like the earth, which he has founded forever.
70 He chose David his servant
and took him from the sheepfolds;
71 from following the nursing ewes he brought him
to shepherd Jacob his people,
Israel his nheritance.
72 With upright heart he shepherded them
and guided them with his skillful hand.
---------------------------------------------------------
"The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees ... So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. "Quick," he said, "get three seahs of fine flour and knead it and bake some bread." ... While they ate, he stood near them under a tree. Gen. 18:1-8"
Isaac's Birth Promised?
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"This is what the Lord says: "Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight." 2 Sam. 12:11"
Nathan Rebukes David for Bathsheba
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"He spilled his semen on the ground. What he did was wicked in the Lord's sight; so he put him to death also. Gen. 38:9-10"
Gen. 38:6-10 And Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, and her name was Tamar. But Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord, and the Lord put him to death. Then Judah said to Onan, “Go in to your brother's wife and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.” But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his. So whenever he went in to his brother's wife he would waste the semen on the ground, so as not to give offspring to his brother. And what he did was wicked in the sight of the Lord, and he put him to death also.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2009 - 09:42pm PT
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"Spare the rod and spoil the child."
This means beat the sh#t out of your children or they might like you.
Everyone can quote stuff from the bible, Gobee, just pick what YOU like,
and say it was the world of god, but then when someone else picks what
you do not like, then say "it was the times".
You still believe in Santa and the Tooth Fairy ?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 27, 2009 - 10:08pm PT
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I love it when atheists start telling Christians what they must believe!
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MH2
climber
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Oct 27, 2009 - 10:30pm PT
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I believe anyone can believe whatever they want as long as it doesn't include a need to tell me what to believe.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 27, 2009 - 10:38pm PT
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dknow- "this ones fir
triple seven
minus one eleven"
"was wonderin about
yer handle"
The number three (3): A.) The number of the Godhead, so, indivisible power.
B.) The number of invincibility.
The number seven (7): A.) The number of perfection.
B.) The number number of sovereignty and
absoluteness.
Seven-Seven-Seven: A.) The number of the Godhead
The Godhead
A.) God the Father
B.) God the Son
C.) God the Holy Spirit
As in contrast to;
The number six (6) A.) The number of imperfection.
B.) The number of man.
Six-Six-Six A.) The number of the Beast.
Therefore I chose to roll with the 'Three Seven's'.
Although there is nothin perfect about me.
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MH2
climber
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Oct 27, 2009 - 10:41pm PT
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What is the belief system of fascists, Mighty Hiker? Tight transit scheduling?
If forced to choose, I pick Grumpyism.
As interpreted in a universe of Andy-matter.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 27, 2009 - 10:59pm PT
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dknow- "Triple seven
minus one eleven"
That would add up to ten: 21
-11
=10
The number ten stands for first and foremost the Ten Commandments.
Of which I try to uphold.
Or you may be alluding to:
777
-111
=666
Can't subtract from the fact that once forgiven, you are eternally written into the Lamb's Book of Life'. And that it is a free gift, you own it for eternity. You can not loose it. "I will never leave you or forsake you"'
So my handle will never be '666'.
Peace and Love.
John.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 27, 2009 - 11:04pm PT
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The oldest manuscript of the book of Revelations actually has 616 as the mark of the beast. Still numerologically adds up to one of the 1st century emperors.
Wonder how many people with 666 address have had big trouble when the number might be 616 after all.
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 27, 2009 - 11:05pm PT
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By preaching the cult of atheism, the atheists fall into the darkest regions of knowledge .......
Better go back and study logic ........
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 27, 2009 - 11:15pm PT
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Dr.F!
Stop putting words in my mouth!
I know nothing about the 'bible code'.
Watched a show on the History Channel about the bible code for about 5 minutes and it looked pretty sketchy at best to me.
I filed it away in my memory (brain) along side 'Nostradamus' who I consider a false prophet.
'dknow' asked me a question as to where I got my handle. I answered him.
Not trying to convince you of anything,
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 27, 2009 - 11:17pm PT
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Trip
Don't let Dr F get under your skin.
He's a projectionist. He only sees himself in everything.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
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Oct 27, 2009 - 11:17pm PT
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So as to oblige Andy, the 'training' behaviour of the various isms:
Christianism: Trains include fatuous infuriating preacher in each car.
Islamism: Insh'Allah.
Fascism: Trains run on time, lubricated by castor oil.
Judaism: Trains don't run on Saturdays.
Communism: Trains free and shared by all, but none actually run.
Lenin-Stalin-Marx-Maoism: Trains used as self-contained torture chambers and execution cells.
Sikhism: Complimentary package includes kirpan and turban.
Buddhism: Trains painted with lotus flowers.
LEBism: Trains powered by demented skwirrrls, deer, and other animals.
Hinduism: Train to be reincarnated as set of Lego, or possibly Tonka toy.
Warblerism: Trains stop at all Milestones.
Neo-conservatism: Trains run by their friends, on no-tender contracts, all the while preaching about the evils of government.
Zoroastrianism: Trains powered by the divine fire.
Atheism: Don't believe in trains.
Agnosticism: Not sure that trains exist, but willing to give them a try if one comes along.
Fattyism: Over the horizon Israeli trains only.
Liberalism: Trains that mostly work, are usually more or less on time, that ordinary people can afford, and which the public doesn't greatly subsidize. As used by jstan.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 27, 2009 - 11:24pm PT
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isms and shisms are totally useless ....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 27, 2009 - 11:27pm PT
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Dr. F-
I believe in tolerance and respect for all people no matter how bizarre their beliefs may be. If I think there's any chance of changing their mind in the direction of more tolerance then I try but I never try to convert anyone to a particular way of thinking. I also know as a professional educator that you will never teach anyone anything if you start out by creating a hostile environment and then disrespect them as human beings.
You totally misunderstand and then misinterpret religion. Religion is not a battle of wits nor is it about logic. It appeals to a whole other side of the brain, the same one that creates and appreciates art and music. I doubt you would attack Mozart or Van Gogh for being irrational - or maybe you would.
Religion represents the highest aspirations of human kind and often with very beneficial results. I also doubt that you would prefer for all the people with beliefs you don't support to suddenly drop their charitable works around the world such as hospitals, nursing homes and orphanages, because the belief system that supports them is irrational by your standards - or would you?
Science is supposed to look at each case on its own merits, yet you choose the most antiquated, culture bound, and unscientific examples possible always and then try to say they represent all of Christianity. When Christians then tell you they don't think like that, you tell them that they should! You're tilting at windmills here.
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MH2
climber
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Oct 27, 2009 - 11:35pm PT
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Most obliging, MH.
I would follow jstan's lead as long as the engineer is a ladybug and ladybugs ride for free.
Get on board, little children.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 27, 2009 - 11:40pm PT
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Mighty Hiker!
Hilarious.
Especially:
Communism.
Hinduism
Atheism.
Agnosticism.
Love it.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2009 - 11:48pm PT
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
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Oct 27, 2009 - 11:57pm PT
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Wernerism: There are many isms, or trains, to ism.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 28, 2009 - 12:09am PT
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Karl!
Pres, Ron Reagan bought his ranch or maybe it was another home somewhere and immediately changed the address from '666'!
There is a Big Five Sporting Good's store with that address that I have been going to here in S.D.County for close to forty years with that address. '666' is always real prominent on the Receipt.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 28, 2009 - 12:21am PT
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John 9:28, And they reviled him, saying, “You are his disciple, but we are disciples of Moses.
Matt 23:2, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat,
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
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Oct 28, 2009 - 12:22am PT
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Gobeeism: The train will never stop running, and is undoubtedly one-track.
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MisterE
Trad climber
Canoga Bark! CA
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Oct 28, 2009 - 01:18am PT
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Same old boring crap
Same old boring crap
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 28, 2009 - 01:21am PT
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MisterE, you should take a trip to Banned Kamp for that juvenile excursion.
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MisterE
Trad climber
Canoga Bark! CA
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Oct 28, 2009 - 01:24am PT
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Do it then - don't just talk about it.
I am sick of the sectarian BS
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 28, 2009 - 01:51am PT
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Read the thread topic. If you don't like it stay out. Pretty simple huh?
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Oct 28, 2009 - 08:30am PT
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you cant quantify a smile...
....take the opacity of eternity times the resistance of infinity, and divide it by the volume of zen.
hmmm. flawed logic? maybe. provable? only within a crooked heart.
silly? definitely.
you don't have to believe like me.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 28, 2009 - 08:47am PT
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"Heaven"
Heaven is a happy place,
without the pain of trials here,
where the love of God is always near.
Jesus paid the price for us down here.
It will be a wonder to behold,
to live the life for evermore.
But it will be a little less,
without you there,
a little less without your care,
without your love to share,
a little less without you there!
GoBee
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 28, 2009 - 09:31am PT
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Heaven, Talkingheads
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zNdMc6wGtU
Songwriters: Harrison, Jerry;Byrne, David
Everyone is trying to get to the bar.
The name of the bar, the bar is called Heaven.
The band in Heaven they play my favorite song.
They play it one more time, they play it all night long.
Oh heaven, heaven is a place, a place where nothing, nothing ever happens.
Heaven is a place, a place where nothing, nothing ever happens.
There is a party, everyone is there.
Everyone will leave at exactly the same time.
When this partys over it will start again.
It will not be any different, it will be exactly the same.
Heaven is a place, a place where nothing, nothing ever happens.
Heaven is a place, a place where nothing, nothing ever happens.
When this kiss is over it will start again.
It will not be any different, it will be exactly
the same.
It's hard to imagine that nothing at all
could be so exciting, could be this much fun.
Oh, heaven, heaven is a place, a place where nothing, nothing ever happens.
Oh, heaven, heaven is a place, a place where nothing, nothing ever happens.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Oct 28, 2009 - 09:42am PT
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im sure that al-qaeda has their own
chant glorifying their belief system.
wayward zeal. close-mindedness. judgement of others.
and action based on such.
that's the team that is religion.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 28, 2009 - 11:46am PT
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Norwegian!
I fully agree.
That is religion.
But Jesus Christ is a relationship.
Just you and Him.
Nothing closed about Him.
Everyone is welcome.
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that none should perish..."
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 28, 2009 - 11:47am PT
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and you get to Decide who "He" is!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Oct 28, 2009 - 12:17pm PT
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I heard a good one on NPR the other day. They were talking about how people ignore the science behind global warming, evolution, etc., but when they get sick they have no problem accepting medical science to fix them.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 28, 2009 - 12:19pm PT
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Norwegian!
I agree with you.
"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgement you judge you will be judged; and the measure you use, it will. And why do you look at the speck in your brother's and do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye' and look a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite!..." Matthew 7:1-5.
These are the word's of Jesus!
The point of this verse is that a Christian should not have a spirit of carping criticism and fault-finding.
You are correct. This is prevalent in the church today.
They are missing the whole point.
God was willing to come down to earth, and be humiliated beaten and crucified for the world. "God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son...".
And now these so called 'Christian's are spewing hate'.
They are the Hypocrites of the the first verse above.
He is love.
Somehow much (not all) has missed the message.
They will be judged for it.
But do not let that turn you from Him.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 28, 2009 - 12:29pm PT
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Jaybro- "and you get to Decide who 'He' is"!
Please explain??
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 28, 2009 - 12:31pm PT
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Jaybro!
'He" is Jesus!
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Oct 28, 2009 - 12:47pm PT
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he is probably a she. if it indeed is a specific entity.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 28, 2009 - 12:51pm PT
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Dr F, I am totally down with that! I don't think that's what lower case 'he', is talking about though, sigh....
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 28, 2009 - 12:58pm PT
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Jaybro!
Cool Vids.
Definitely open to interpretation.
I've always liked the J. Cash version from a few years back. He also does a cover of that "Nine Inch Nails" song, forget the title, think it might have been written by Curt Cobain.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 28, 2009 - 01:05pm PT
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trip over 7, I really, really like the Johhny Cash version! We're gonna miss him even more...
Youtube credits it to Deche Mode. I don't pretend to know.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Luup3qublm0
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 28, 2009 - 01:33pm PT
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Jaybro!
Thanks for posting that, 'Hurt'.
Yea! That's the one.
I love that song.
I can identify with every lyric!
Just listened to it three times.
It's so personnel.
Think I'll be listening to Johnny all day.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 28, 2009 - 01:37pm PT
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Jaybro!
Trent Reznor wrote the lyrics (NIN).
Powerful!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 28, 2009 - 02:18pm PT
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RW!
The lyrics in 'The Wretched", "Terrible", and "Heresy".
Are in total contrast, or in total opposition to "Hurt".
In "Hurt", he admits that he is the one who let everybody down.
It is called a "broken and contrite" heart.
King David of Israel had "broken a contrite heart".
God called him (David) "A man after My own Heart".
It's a song ('Hurt') about reflection.
A confession of sort's.
The other three song's he puts the blame on God.
So typical of a disbelieving world.
But I certainly can understand. When I was young I was heading fast and hard in that direction.
Man created his own problems. Admit it.
He's willing to take the guilt.
No angst or guilt here.
But mankind is to 'proud' or self-righteous.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 28, 2009 - 02:34pm PT
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Russ!
Interesting lyrics though!
Kind of a look inside his head, so to speak.
Dudes definitely got some issues.
Hopefully Johnny helped straighten him out.
I know they collaborated on the Cash version of 'Hurt'.
Peace.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 28, 2009 - 05:57pm PT
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Guess we have, gone past Ardi, call it evolution in fractal...
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 28, 2009 - 06:02pm PT
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From the very first post: Getting back to ARDI
"Ardi" is the nickname given to a shattered skeleton that an international team of scientists painstakingly excavated from the Ethiopian desert, analyzed over the course of 15 years, and declared Thursday to be a major breakthrough in the study of human origins. Ardi lived more than a million years before "Lucy," a much-celebrated, 3.2 million-year-old fossil of an early human progenitor found just 45 miles away.
If the scientists are correct, Ardi and her kind were the ancestors of our ancestors. She was a transitional figure, almost a hybrid -- a tree creature who could carry food in her arms as she explored the woodland floor on two legs.
The skeletal remnants of Ardi were recovered along with bones from at least 35 other members of a species that the scientists call Ardipithecus ramidus. Their arduous investigation had incited grumbling in a scientific community that had grown impatient to find out what exactly had been found in the silty clay of Ethiopia. The answers are dramatic, detailed in 11 papers published Thursday in the online edition of the journal Science and discussed in dual press conferences in Washington and Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.
The discovery of Ardi "further confirms that Ethiopia is the cradle of humankind," said Yohannes Haile-Selassie, the paleontologist who found the first two bones of Ardi in 1994.
Human origins is a field with high stakes and small bones, and the elaborate roll-out of the new research probably will trigger debate about the message contained in fossils so fragile they had to be excavated with dental picks and porcupine quills.
"It was a sort of a time capsule from 4.4. million years ago with contents that nobody had ever seen before," said Tim White, a University of California at Berkeley paleoanthropologist who led the Ardi research team. "We worked for years at opening that time capsule by collecting every shred of evidence that we could find."
The scientists who found Ardi do not contend that she necessarily evolved into Lucy. The human line of primates could have splintered, with some species turning into genetic dead ends. Lucy's line of primates could have diverged from Ardi's line long before Ardi lived. Even so, White said he believes that his team has documented an evolutionary sequence that shows, at the genus level, where people came from. Ardipithecus, then Australopithecus, then Homo.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 28, 2009 - 06:08pm PT
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Jah be praised.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 28, 2009 - 09:49pm PT
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yabo
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 29, 2009 - 02:21am PT
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 29, 2009 - 08:50am PT
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"Heaven, Talkingheads"
The Head's are one of my fav's, but they stopped making sense with those lyrics'.
There is going to be a new heaven and new earth.
"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more".
“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—
Do you think Heaven is going to be boring?
Our God made Yosemite!!!
Being loving, and kind is not boring!
We have know idea, what's it's like!
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Oct 29, 2009 - 09:41am PT
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jesus just wants to chill today.
and mull over eternity with a glass of 4000 year old wine.
maybe two glasses. and if the buzz strikes him between the fears, perhaps infinite glasses. cause he's jesus. and HE can handle his booze.
lets leave him be for the moment.
quit bludgoning his name and misunderstanding his idea.
please go wrap your minds around a wandering stick. which etches a path divergent to the sin that is stupified complacency.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 29, 2009 - 10:04am PT
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No Easter Bunny, no tooth fairy, and no God. All three are made up. Sorry!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Oct 29, 2009 - 10:43pm PT
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“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”
--Mahatma Gandhi quotes (Indian Philosopher, internationally esteemed for his doctrine of nonviolent protest, 1869-1948)
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 29, 2009 - 11:02pm PT
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“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”
--Mahatma Gandhi quotes (Indian Philosopher, internationally esteemed for his doctrine of nonviolent protest, 1869-1948)
However, some people should be ignored, some people should be laughed at, some people should be fought, and sometimes good people lose and the bad win.
Ralph Waldo Emerson said:
"To be great is to be misunderstood"
But that doesn't mean that if people don't understand you, you're great--you could just be a wack-job.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Oct 29, 2009 - 11:36pm PT
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It looks like everyone's world view is about to change. This will put Evolution (as we know it) in question, and you will have to come to a realization that GOD IS and what he has said is absolutely true. What will you then do? How will you handle this new reality? It is going to be a major wake-up call. Your reality will be challenged. I hope you are all ready.
Official disclosure of extraterrestrial life is imminent
October 21, 12:27 AM
Honolulu Exopolitics Examiner
Michael Salla, Ph.D.
http://www.examiner.com/x-2383-Honolulu-Exopolitics-Examiner~y2009m10d21-Official-disclosure-of-extraterrestrial-life-is-imminent?cid=exrss-Honolulu-Exopolitics-Examiner
Is Obama Nobel Peace Prize prelude to extraterrestrial disclosure?
October 9, 2:33 PM
Honolulu Exopolitics Examiner
Michael Salla, Ph.D.
http://www.examiner.com/x-2383-Honolulu-Exopolitics-Examiner~y2009m10d9-Is-Obama-Nobel-Peace-Prize-prelude-to-extraterrestrial-disclosure
Just remember, the author of all lies and deception is Lucifer. He is the Father of Fallen Angels, Nephalim, and Demons. DO NOT TRUST THEM. The End Game is massive deception. Be ready.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 30, 2009 - 12:10am PT
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It bears repeating -- you could just be a wack-job.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Oct 30, 2009 - 12:31am PT
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I won't repeat your insults.
But when it goes down as stated. Knowing I'm right, and I told you so beforehand will be satisfaction enough.
You will be held accountable for what you say and do.
I forgive your rudeness.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 30, 2009 - 12:35am PT
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"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 30, 2009 - 12:41am PT
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"No Easter Bunny, no tooth fairy, and no God. All three are made up. Sorry!"
Dirtbag your just made up on this website?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 30, 2009 - 12:57am PT
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Some kind of big shocking wake up call that things aren't as they seem would sure be exciting eh?
When was the last time some news really blew people away?
I guess when Cortez landed, the native people were really spun. Sadly, it went downhill from there.
I'd have higher hopes from non-humans though.
Peace
Karl
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 30, 2009 - 02:26am PT
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I won't repeat your insults.
But when it goes down as stated. Knowing I'm right, and I told you so beforehand will be satisfaction enough.
You will be held accountable for what you say and do.
I forgive your rudeness.
Classic Christian Passive-Aggressiveness.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 30, 2009 - 03:31am PT
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actually, this looks a lot more like Locker to me!
Who knows what Jesus really looked like?
Maybe the faces that pop up in tortillas and candy bars are really just God mocking stoners with their own likeness? Or, if you are into science, hallucinations caused by the munchies?
Peace
Karl
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Oct 30, 2009 - 05:48pm PT
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Locker,
I have to admit that made me bust-up outloud. Funny.
Ok, how come it looks so much like the same exact image in the Shroud of Turin, huh?
Too funny.
Edit:
Rokjox,
I have no doubt there is microbial life on Mars. I'm surprised they haven't announced it yet. All the evidence points to there being so. Interesting times for sure. But, we knew that way back in the 70s with the Viking missions.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 30, 2009 - 05:54pm PT
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Is Obama Nobel Peace Prize prelude to extraterrestrial disclosure?
October 9, 2:33 PM
Honolulu Exopolitics Examiner
Michael Salla, Ph.D.
http://www.examiner.com/x-2383-Honolulu-Exopolitics-Examiner~y2009m10d9-Is-Obama-Nobel-Peace-Prize-prelude-to-extraterrestrial-disclosure
Klimmer you're always good for a laugh.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 30, 2009 - 05:57pm PT
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"No Easter Bunny, no tooth fairy, and no God. All three are made up. Sorry!"
Dirtbag your just made up on this website?
Unlike "God" I'll actually answer back.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Oct 30, 2009 - 06:08pm PT
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Hey Locker,
My Jesus in a Sikhote - Alin Meteorite beats your Jesus in a candy bar!
By the way, this is real not "photoshopped." And it is not for sale ever (family heirloom now).
Perhaps you see him perhaps you don't . . .
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 30, 2009 - 08:11pm PT
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"Unlike "God" I'll actually answer back."
We have the whole Bible, from God!
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 30, 2009 - 09:56pm PT
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I think it's funny someone can say that with a straight face considering so many books were expunged early on and none of the authors knew Jesus, if he even existed.
Does God talk to you every night after you pray?
Didn't think so.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
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Oct 30, 2009 - 11:30pm PT
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Well, that's rather cool - meteorite collectors here. Nice photos!
Perhaps klimmer got conked on the head by his, and unlike Sir Isaac, came to an incorrect conclusion as to the cause.
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MH2
climber
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Oct 30, 2009 - 11:35pm PT
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Well, that's rather cool - meteorite collectors here. Nice photos!
Perhaps klimmer got conked on the head by his, and unlike Sir Isaac, came to an incorrect conclusion as to the cause.
Or maybe he was possessed by an evil spirit that lurked within it. Either way, I'm not arguing with a guy who has such a cool-looking meteorite.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 31, 2009 - 12:14am PT
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"Does God talk to you every night after you pray?
Didn't think so."
Nobody would ever come up with that's in the Bible, only God!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 31, 2009 - 12:42am PT
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LOCKER HA HA HA!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Oct 31, 2009 - 01:23am PT
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Yes, I see it! I see Locker in a giant fur ball!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 31, 2009 - 07:35am PT
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Oct 31, 2009 - 01:17pm PT
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Richard Hoagland's take on the LCROSS Lunar impact mission and what it really found and what they were really searching for (could be since the India Moon mission already proved water on the Moon before we the USA, announced finding it. Why did we have to take their thunder and claim the discovery?):
NASA's Smoking Gun:
Part II
LCROSS' (and LRO's) Secret NASA Mission to the Moon ....
http://www.enterprisemission.com/SmokingGun2.htm
What the Japanese have found on the Moon, interesting Lava Tubes (or are they something else?):
Found: first 'skylight' on the moon
23:54 22 October 2009 by Rachel Courtland
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18030-found-first-skylight-on-the-moon.html
Is disclusure upon us? Interesting times for sure.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 31, 2009 - 01:26pm PT
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good luck, klimmer... send a post card when you get to where ever it is that you are headed...
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Rokjox,
Thanks I appreciate that word of encouragement.
The center regmaglypt or "thumbprint" shows a negative indented pareidolia of Jesus, or at least what many would assume what Jesus might look like. Because of this indention image the eyes of Jesus follow you whenever I rock the image back and forth while looking at it.
It is truly an incredible piece from the famous Sikhote - alin meteorite
:-))
On another blog tonight I just found out that at the U2 concert that you can watch now for free on Youtube of the CA, Pasedena, Rose Bowl concert, there is a moment where 33:3:3333 shows up massively and is frozen on screen above the band. Many people wonder about the significance of that . . .
Jeremiah 33:3 (KJV)
"[3] Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not."
Bono and U2 are deep. Really deep. Bono undertstands the significance that the Freemasons (33 degrees) and Skull and Bones (33 degrees) have regarding the number 33. When Lucifer fell from Heaven he took a third of the Heavenly Angels with him. A third of anythng is 33.333333%. Bono is stealing back the number 33 from those who would pervert it.
Awesome concert. Watch it for free. They are coming again to Anaheim, June 6th, 2010!
http://u2log.com/2009/10/25/u2-360-pasadena-rose-bowl-live-on-youtube/
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"If there was an historical Jesus, I personally doubt he said much of what is attributed to him because some of it sounds quite frankly delusional to me."
Jesus said He was the Son of God, If you have seen Me you have seen he Father! Jesus was God in the form of man, in the flesh, God as a man! He was not just a good man.
So either Jesus was crazy, a liar, or He was who He said He was!
He did many miracles, healed many people, and cast out demons. Even the Pharisees went out and immediately held counsel with the Herodians against him, how to destroy him. And said that Jesus did what He did by the power of the devil! Because they knew He did those miracles.
And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, “He is possessed by Beelzebul,” and “by the prince of demons he casts out the demons.” And he called them to him and said to them in parables, “How can Satan cast out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end. But no one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. Then indeed he may plunder his house.
“Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”— for they were saying, “He has an unclean spirit.”
“Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for the tree is known by its fruit.
Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard, while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
“Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.”
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Bless the Lord, O My Soul
Of David.
1 Bless the lord O my soul,
and all that is within me,
bless his holy name!
2 Bless the Lord, O my soul,
and forget not all his benefits,
3 who forgives all your iniquity,
who heals all your diseases,
4 who redeems your life from the pit,
who crowns you with steadfast love and mercy,
5 who satisfies you with good
so that your youth is renewed like the eagle's.
6 The Lord works righteousness
and justice for all who are oppressed.
7 He made known his ways to Moses,
his acts to the people of Israel.
8 The Lord is merciful and gracious,
slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love.
9 He will not always chide,
nor will he keep his anger forever.
10 He does not deal with us according to our sins,
nor repay us according to our iniquities.
11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him;
12 as far as the east is from the west,
so far does he remove our transgressions from us.
13 As a father shows compassion to his children,
so the Lord shows compassion to those who fear him.
14 For he knows our frame;
he remembers that we are dust.
15 As for man, his days are like grass;
he flourishes like a flower of the field;
16 for the wind passes over it, and it is one,
and its place knows it no more.
17 But the steadfast love of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear him,
and his righteousness to children's children,
18 to those who keep his covenant
and remember to do his commandments.
19 The Lord has established his throne in the heavens,
and his kingdom rules over all.
20 Bless the Lord, O you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his word,
obeying the voice of his word!
21 Bless the Lord, all his hosts,
his ministers, who do his will!
22 Bless the Lord, all his works,
in all places of his dominion.
Bless the Lord, O my soul!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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I don’t care if it
Rains or freezes
As long as I’ve got my
Plastic Jesus
Ridin’ on the dashboard
Of my car
Through my trials
And tribulations
And my travels
Through the nation
With my plastic Jesus
I’ll go far
Ridin’ down the thoroughfare
With a nose up in the air
A wreck may be ahead
But he don’t mind
Trouble comin’
He don’t see
He just keeps his eye on me
And any other thing that lies behind
Chorus
With my plastic Jesus
Goodbye and I’ll go far
I said with my plastic Jesus
Sitting on the dashboard of my car
When I’m in a traffic jam
He don’t care if I say damn
I can let all my curses roll
‘Cos Jesus’ plastic doesn’t hear
‘Cos he has a plastic ear
The man who invented plastic
Saved my soul
Chorus
An if I weave around at night
Policemen think I’m very tight
They never find my bottle
Though they ask
‘Cos plastic Jesus shelters me
For his head comes off you see
He’s hollow and I use him like a flask
Woa Woa Woa
Save me
I don’t care if it’s dark or scary
Long as I got magnetic Mary
Ridin’ on the dashboard of my car
I feel that I’m protected amply
I’ve got the love of the whole damn family
Ridin’ on the dashboard of my car
With my plastic Jesus
I said goodbye
And I’ll go far
And I said with my plastic Jesus
I said sittin’ on the dashboard of my car
When I’m goin’ fornicatin’
I’ve got my ceramic Satan
Sittin’ on the dashboard of my car
Women know I’m on the level
Thanks to the wide-eyed stoneware devil
Sneerin’ from the dashboard of my car
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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LEB,
Ok, if Jesus was just a man, and there is no God, we might as well eat and drink for tomorrow we die!
But there is no life in just eating and drinking!
But if Jesus is God, and the what the Bible is true, which it is, God loves us, and we can be forgiven and live are lives for Him, with thanksgiving, it means everything!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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How can you live a moral life without instruction? And whose morals? In the Bible God gives us His way to live! I am what I am because of God. I know I'm forgiven, in my mind, my sins might not be the worst of the Ten Commandments, but I could not argue with God that I'm innocent! I have lived with no thought of God at all, and He still loves me! I can't and don't want to imagine that there is no God, been there and done that. That's not a place where I want to be!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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It's funny that you would bring up stealing, one of the Ten Commandments. If God did not say, "Do not steal", would that be a sin? Have you ever did something that you knew was wrong, I have?
Just look at the universe and time, we are here for a moment, God puts eternity in are hearts!
P. S. I like cream only!
Edit; If there was NO God .... I wouldn't be here!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Sometimes even when I want to do something because I believe it's the right thing to do, I can still not do it!
Like not get mad when someone cuts me off, or takes the parking spot I'm waiting for?
I'm not that good, God says to put others first, and do good unto them, I don't think I would come up with that, but when I follow that it changes me, and we are all loved by God!
The cream is for the coffee!
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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lifted from wiki:
Nat was singularly intelligent, and learned how to read and write at a young age. He grew up deeply religious, and was often seen fasting, praying or immersed in reading the stories of the Bible.[3] He frequently received visions which he interpreted as messages from God. These visions greatly influenced his life; for instance, when Nat was 23 years old, he ran away from his owner, but returned a month later after receiving such a vision. Turner often conducted Baptist services, and preached the Bible to his fellow slaves, who dubbed him as "The Prophet". Turner also had an influence over white people, and in the case of Ethelred T. Brantley, Nat said that he was able to convince Brantley to "cease from his wickedness".[4] By early 1828, Nat was convinced that he "was ordained for some great purpose in the hands of the Almighty."[5] While working in his owner's fields on May 12, Turner "heard a loud noise in the heavens, and the Spirit instantly appeared to me and said the Serpent was loosened, and Christ had laid down the yoke he had borne for the sins of men, and that I should take it on and fight against the Serpent, for the time was fast approaching when the first should be last and the last should be first."[6] Nat was convinced that God had given him the task of "slay[ing] my enemies with their own weapons."[6] Nat "communicated the great work laid out for me to do, to four in whom I had the greatest confidence" – his fellow slaves Henry, Hark, Nelson and Sam.[6]
Beginning in February 1831, Turner came to believe that certain atmospheric conditions were to be interpreted as a sign that he should begin preparing for a rebellion against the slave owners.
On February 12, 1831, an annular solar eclipse was seen in Virginia. Nat saw this as a Black man's hand reaching over the sun and he took this as his sign. The rebellion was initially planned for July 4, Independence Day, but was postponed due to deliberation between him and his followers, and illness. On August 13, there was an atmospheric disturbance, another solar eclipse, in which the sun appeared bluish-green (possibly from debris deposited in the atmosphere by an eruption of Mount Saint Helens). Nat took this as the final signal, and a week later, on August 21, he began the rebellion.
and:
Nat started with a few trusted fellow slaves. The rebels traveled from house to house, freeing slaves and killing all the white people they found. The rebels ultimately included more than 50 enslaved and free blacks.
Because the rebels did not want to alert anyone to their presence as they carried out their attacks, they initially used knives, hatchets, axes, and blunt instruments instead of firearms. Nat called on his group to "kill all whites."[citation needed] The rebellion did not discriminate by age or sex, although Nat later indicated that he intended to spare women, children, and men who surrendered as it went on.[citation needed]
Before Nat and his brigade of rebels met resistance at the hands of a white militia, they killed a total of 55 white men, women and children.[7] They spared a few homes "because Turner believed the poor white inhabitants 'thought no better of themselves than they did of negroes.'"[8]
do the right thing with that
there scripture.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"do the right thing with that
there scripture."
Just because people can take it wrong, it doesn't mean that God is wrong!
Edit; Thou shalt not kill?
I'm a slave to the grind!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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who's to say who's wrong?
do you condone slavery?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.
We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone.
And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jesus Cleanses the Temple
And they came to Jerusalem. And he entered the temple and began to drive out those who sold and those who bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons. And he would not allow anyone to carry anything through the temple. And he was teaching them and saying to them, “Is it not written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations’? But you have made it a den of robbers.” And the chief priests and the scribes heard it and were seeking a way to destroy him, for they feared him, because all the crowd was astonished at his teaching. And when evening came they went out of the city.
Edit; "but I don't know exactly where it was "his" house"
If Jesus is (God) the Son, He was talking about the Temple where this took place!
Isaiah 56:7, these I will bring to my holy mountain,
and make them joyful in my house of prayer;
their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house shall be called a house of prayer
for all peoples.”
Jeremiah 7:11, Has this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, I myself have seen it, declares the Lord.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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It looks like more then 20% off?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Well virgin birth, healed the sick, raised the dead, forgave sins, and resurrected from the dead, sounds like God to me! It's not insane if it's true?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Leb wrote: "How can you possibly "know" something like that?"
The whole business about "knowing" is an interesting study, and traditinal epistimology goes a long ways in exploring this question.
We tend to consider "knowing" in terms of our evaluating minds, but there are other modes of knowing that are almost certainly more reliable.
Take, for instance, what I saw today while out on a ride. A dog recognized his master from about fifty yerds away. Without any smell or sound or other close sense data, the dog simply "knew" that girl was his master. Dogs can often exhibit this kind of knowing and how often are they wrong?
JL
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WBraun
climber
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how often are they wrong?
When you dangle a big steak in front of them.
A snake can be charmed by herbs and mantras.
But a human snake .............
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Can I get a witness...
Jesus Heals a Man Born Blind
As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him. We must work the works of him who sent me while it is day; night is coming, when no one can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.” Having said these things, he spat on the ground and made mud with the saliva. Then he anointed the man's eyes with the mud and said to him, “Go, wash in the pool of Siloam” (which means Sent). So he went and washed and came back seeing.
The neighbors and those who had seen him before as a beggar were saying, “Is this not the man who used to sit and beg?” Some said, “It is he.” Others said, “No, but he is like him.” He kept saying, “I am the man.” So they said to him, “Then how were your eyes opened?” He answered, “The man called Jesus made mud and anointed my eyes and said to me, ‘Go to Siloam and wash.’ So I went and washed and received my sight.” They said to him, “Where is he?” He said, “I do not know.”
They brought to the Pharisees the man who had formerly been blind. Now it was a Sabbath day when Jesus made the mud and opened his eyes. So the Pharisees again asked him how he had received his sight. And he said to them, “He put mud on my eyes, and I washed, and I see.” Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.” But others said, “How can a man who is a sinner do such signs?” And there was a division among them. So they said again to the blind man, “What do you say about him, since he has opened your eyes?” He said, “He is a prophet.”
The Jews did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight, until they called the parents of the man who had received his sight and asked them, “Is this your son, who you say was born blind? How then does he now see?” His parents answered, “We know that this is our son and that he was born blind. But how he now sees we do not know, nor do we know who opened his eyes. Ask him; he is of age. He will speak for himself.” (His parents said these things because they feared the Jews, for the Jews had already agreed that if anyone should confess Jesus to be Christ, he was to be put out of the synagogue.) Therefore his parents said, “He is of age; ask him.”
So for the second time they called the man who had been blind and said to him, “Give glory to God. We know that this man is a sinner.” He answered, “Whether he is a sinner I do not know. One thing I do know, that though I was blind, now I see.” They said to him, “What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?” He answered them, “I have told you already, and you would not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you also want to become his disciples?” And they reviled him, saying, “You are his disciple, but we are disciples of Moses. We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where he comes from.” The man answered, “Why, this is an amazing thing! You do not know where he comes from, and yet he opened my eyes. We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him. Never since the world began has it been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a man born blind. If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.” They answered him, “You were born in utter sin, and would you teach us?” And they cast him out.
Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” He answered, “And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?” Jesus said to him, “You have seen him, and it is he who is speaking to you.” He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him. Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and those who see may become blind.” Some of the Pharisees near him heard these things, and said to him, “Are we also blind?” Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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I'm barking up the wrong tree but how about when dogs or cats find their masters after they move or are lost far from home, wow!
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dirtbag
climber
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The New Testament is hearsay. No one writing it saw or knew Jesus (if Jesus existed).
Entire books have been edited out early on. Many of these books contain passages conflicting with some of the parts that remained.
Pretty dubious source there...
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dirtbag
climber
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Yep Lois. Just goes to show, people believe what they want to believe.
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MH2
climber
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We tend to consider "knowing" in terms of our evaluating minds, but there are other modes of knowing that are almost certainly more reliable.
a nursing version of this notion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha_E._Rogers
I would rather ask Raymond Smullyan's empirical epistemologist, but he is unfortunately still theoretical.
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WBraun
climber
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And you're all experts on what is "Real"
You don't even know where you came from nor who you are and where you're going .......
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Have you read the Bible? The Old Testament foretold of the Messiah, the New Testament, is of the Messiah. The Jews still as a whole don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah, but it tells of many prophecies that only Jesus fulfilled. It's happened in spite of it all.
If there is a God and He wanted to reveal himself He could have done it a lot of different ways, but if you look at Jesus closely, the way the Bible that we have says it happened, it rings true, He had to have a virgin birth or He would just be a man only!
Without Jesus standing in front of you how could you know for sure?
Well like with Heads, you "X" um, paste um, then smell um, then test um!
Read the word, live it, and trust it, trust and obey, there's no other way!
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dirtbag
climber
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Uh-huh--still doesn't address the hearsay or editing problems.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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You don't even know where you came from nor who you are and where you're going .......
You sure about that Werner? It really does seem to me that I just came from the basement -- I was down there to get a glass of beer -- and as to where I'm going, well, once I finish the beer I'm going upstairs to bed.
You and Gobee and Klimmer et al can ramble on about the supernatural metaphysics of it till the sun goes nova if you want to, but most of the rest of us have a pretty good idea where we came from and where we're going. Whether it's just now (from the basement, to bed) or on the big scale (from the womb, to the grave), it just isn't that mysterious.
There are mysteries. Oh, yes. But where I came from and where I'm going aren't among them.
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dirtbag
climber
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It's Losus, the Loissiah!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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When my father inlaw went to the basement, he had to shut the door!
Or as a friend at work says, he's letting the kids play in the pool!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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When I take the words of the Bible in and sallow them whole, I've always been satisfied, Jesus is my Lord and savior!
Glorify God in the landscape of your mind, we are on Holy ground!
Jesus said, I have food you do not know of, to do the will of the Father who sent Me.
The Lord Is My Shepherd
A Psalm of David.
The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.
He makes me lie down in green pastures.
He leads me beside still waters.
He restores my soul.
He leads me in paths of righteousness
for his name's sake.
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.
You prepare a table before me
in the presence of my enemies;
you anoint my head with oil;
my cup overflows.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me
all the days of my life,
and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord
forever.
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MH2
climber
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I just came from the basement -- I was down there to get a glass of beer
Sure, Ghost, sure. You came from the basement, but where were you before that, etc., etc.,eh? We know that there are minds sharp enough on this thread to expose your ignorance ultimately. Good thing getting away with it so far, though!
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Before he was in the basement getting a beer, he was at his computer, of course.
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MH2
climber
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talk about "beating a DEAD Horse"...
As you like.
I have never seen anyone beat a dead horse, nor heard anyone talk of having done it, but it would show a charming degree of faith in unknown forces and it wouldn't bother the horse. It has also been used in humor long enough that the horse is fossilized and bears a likeness of Jesus. Could be Nazarene and a donkey. YMMV.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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GOBEE,
Hang in there! You have the patience of a Saint (lol).
The Bible . . .
Many writers through time and place, but one author -- GOD. I would also include the Book of Enoch. I'm sure there are other books that should have been included.
Try as Lucifer the author of confussion did to remove and make it nearly impossible for the Bible to occur, he couldn't keep it from happening and being published.
The greatest story ever told and by far the greatest best-selling book ever in all history.
A hidden code exists within that proves its authorship and value for all history and for all time.
God is amazing and far beyond anything we can ever imagine.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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talk about "beating a DEAD Horse"...
The Coming King of Zion
Zechariah 9:9, Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
Shout aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your king is coming to you;
righteous and having salvation is he,
humble and mounted on a donkey,on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
The Triumphal Entry
Matthew 21:1-11, Now when they drew near to Jerusalem and came to Bethphage, to the Mount of Olives, then Jesus sent two disciples, saying to them, “Go into the village in front of you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her. Untie them and bring them to me. If anyone says anything to you, you shall say, ‘The Lord needs them,’ and he will send them at once.” This took place to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet, saying,
“Say to the daughter of Zion,
‘Behold, your king is coming to you,
humble, and mounted on a donkey,
and on a colt, the foal of a beast of burden.’”
The disciples went and did as Jesus had directed them. They brought the donkey and the colt and put on them their cloaks, and he sat on them. Most of the crowd spread their cloaks on the road, and others cut branches from the trees and spread them on the road. And the crowds that went before him and that followed him were shouting, “Hosanna to the Son of David! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! Hosanna in the highest!” And when he entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred up, saying, “Who is this?” And the crowds said, “This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth of Galilee.”
***Jesus though He was God humbled Himself, you would think that He being God would ride in on a big horse, but instead He road in on a donkey!
***Also He washed his Disciples' Feet!
John 13:1-20, Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart out of this world to the Father, having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end. During supper, when the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him, Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God and was going back to God, rose from supper. He laid aside his outer garments, and taking a towel, tied it around his waist. Then he poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the towel that was wrapped around him. He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, “Lord, do you wash my feet?” Jesus answered him, “What I am doing you do not understand now, but afterward you will understand.” Peter said to him, “You shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no share with me.” Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!” Jesus said to him, “The one who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but is completely clean. And you are clean, but not every one of you.” For he knew who was to betray him; that was why he said, “Not all of you are clean.”
When he had washed their feet and put on his outer garments and resumed his place, he said to them, “Do you understand what I have done to you? You call me Teacher and Lord, and you are right, for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that you also should do just as I have done to you. Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them. I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’ I am telling you this now, before it takes place, that when it does take place you may believe that I am he. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever receives the one I send receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me.”
What a wonderful and loving Lord and savior!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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dirtbag
climber
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Wonderful show on PBS right now on the evolution of humans. Nicely explained for laypeople.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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ok, so you guys are basically here spouting bible quotes, etc, and a few people throwing tomatoes from the audience... everyone else seems exhausted.
So I'll ask you your opinion about the Bible's account of creation.
Taken literally, at least from the KJV, see http://www.bartleby.com/108/01/1.html#S1 , there are a few things that taken literally don't make sense to me and my idea of God...
first off, Genesis 1.3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
God creates light, but what confuses me is Gen 1.4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
I'm confused because it seems that God didn't know whether or not light was going to be good before he created it... but isn't he all knowing? he sort of winged it with light... "I'll just do it and see how it comes out"
Throughout the creation, Genesis is talking about Earth, that is rather clear... but water exists elsewhere as does land... God give man dominion "over all the earth" which seems limited in a universe full of stuff..
Finally, Gen 1.31 repeats the odd view that God didn't quite know what he was doing when he started out: "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
So if we are to take literally what the Bible says, that God created everything in 6 days, shouldn't all the other stuff be taken literally too?
Gen 1.27 states "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
God does look like us then, no?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Re Dead horse, MH2 read Nietzche and Dostoevevsky. It's a recurring metaphor with them, and they aren't the only ones.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Ahhhhh I forgot to record that KPBS program on TV tonight. I'll have to get it later. Hopefully it repeats.
Ed,
We'll have to get back to you on that. Deep stuff for sure, even in the Christian world many don't agree with one another regarding how Genesis exactly took place. Me = Theistic Evolution with God's creative works at very key moments and his continual watch. The Universe is as old as the Astronomical record indicates 14-15 Billion years. God doesn't make up fake geologic evidence to fool man. It is what it is. I believe when the full truth is known one day, Scientific Truths will completely agree with the Biblical Truths of God.
However, you can not come to God through pride and intellect. You have to humble yourself and ask forgiveness in humility. God does indeed humble the wise:
1 Corinthians 1:18-31 (KJV)
[18] For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
[19] For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
[20] Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
[21] For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
[22] For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
[23] But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
[24] But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
[25] Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
[26] For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
[27] But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
[28] And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
[29] That no flesh should glory in his presence.
[30] But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
[31] That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
Edit:
God does at times seem to admit that he regrets sometimes what he has done. Take the case of creating man, God essentially admits in Genesis to being sorry for making man.
Gen.6:1-8 (KJV)
[1] And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
[2] That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
[3] And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
[4] There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
[5] And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
[6] And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
[7] And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
[8] But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Thank God for Noah is all I can say at this time.
It is getting late. There is a lot in the above passages of scripture. Deep meaningful stuff. I'll come back to this tomorrow.
I guess that is the risk God takes when he creates creatures like man with free-will. They tend to have a mind and will of their own. Potentially dangerous stuff as we can all see.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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* Yahoo *
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dirtbag
climber
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Cry me a river bookworm.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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come on, dirt, aren't you intrigued by the disparate responses to these religions? you don't have to be religious to be curious
it seems to me, if atheists are really afraid of religion's alleged destructive powers, then their focus should be on islam right now
there are many self-proclaimed muslims who publicly call for "death to the infidels", but most atheists (christopher hitchens aside) seem concerned only about christians and jews
then, when anyone does speak out against muslim violence, they are quickly condemend for "bigotry" (again, christopher hitchens aside)
it's like the atheists who mock the pope because he believes jesus rose from the grave, but then line up to kiss the dalai lama's ass even though he claims to be the 13th/14th reincarnation of some dude who died centuries ago
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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"it's like the atheists who mock the pope because he believes jesus rose from the grave, but then line up to kiss the dalai lama's ass even though he claims to be the 13th/14th reincarnation of some dude who died centuries ago"
Bookworm,
Good observation. Perhaps certain faiths they perceive as a real threat and others they just laugh at. They hate to be wrong and it shows.
“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”
-- Mahatma Gandhi quotes (Indian Philosopher, internationally esteemed for his doctrine of nonviolent protest, 1869-1948)
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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We're in America folks. Of course people who want freedom from religion being forced on them are going to talk about Christianity because it's the predominant religion. Any true atheist is going to see Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Scientology or any other religion as myths. And of course the weak-minded Christians buy into all the victimization crap spouted by the right wing, there's far more aspects of Christianity accepted in American culture than any other relegion, to complain about Christian persecution in America is a crybaby move.
I'm an agnostic and I will concede the biggest threat to peace and stability is from radical Islam right now. But the Christian abortion Dr. killers are just as evil, they are just far fewer of them than crazy muslims.
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dirtbag
climber
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come on, dirt, aren't you intrigued by the disparate responses to these religions? you don't have to be religious to be curious
it seems to me, if atheists are really afraid of religion's alleged destructive powers, then their focus should be on islam right now
there are many self-proclaimed muslims who publicly call for "death to the infidels", but most atheists (christopher hitchens aside) seem concerned only about christians and jews
then, when anyone does speak out against muslim violence, they are quickly condemend for "bigotry" (again, christopher hitchens aside)
it's like the atheists who mock the pope because he believes jesus rose from the grave, but then line up to kiss the dalai lama's ass even though he claims to be the 13th/14th reincarnation of some dude who died centuries ago
Frankly, I'm tired of the Christian as victim card. Boo-frigging hoo. Most of the people in the U.S. are christians, it is a domintant religion in western culture, so they are hardly oppressed. It is a fact that atheists are not well regarded in our society. So kindly STFU with your whining: it's tiresome.
If most of our responses are directed at Christians, it's because THAT is the fundamentalism we are confronted with most often and most directly here in the US. I see a lot more of the Christian right trying to legislate their values and trying do dumb down our schools, day in and day out, than the Islamic fundies. ID, anyone?
And while I agree it is hardly as horrific as sending out suicide bombing missions, which seems to be an Islamic fundy thing to do right now, it is nonetheless a form of tyranny.
I think ALL religous fundamentalism is a problem. They all suck! I also think all religions are equally preposterous and delusional, and I especially dislike fundamentalism of any stripe.
The Dalia lama is also a political leader. I can view his religion as bunk and his theocratic tendencies while appreciating the plight of his people.
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WBraun
climber
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Weird, .... dirtbag
I agree with everything you just said.
But still God exists .......
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MH2
climber
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I'm confused because it seems that God didn't know whether or not light was going to be good before he created it... but isn't he all knowing? he sort of winged it with light... "I'll just do it and see how it comes out"
If I recall, it was chaos, presumably containing both light and dark, and God merely divided the chaos into day and night. Although most of my information comes from The Creation by Handel.
and thanks for the beating dead horses references and the axe to break the frozen seas within
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Ed: there are a few things that taken literally don't make sense to me
The Bible has no shortage of things that don't make sense. Check out this site http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.htm
PS The KJV babble I have says, "And God said, Let us make man in our image, 1 Cor. 11.7 after our likeness.."
Just how many gods are there?
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dirtbag
climber
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Weird, .... dirtbag
I agree with everything you just said.
Thanks! And don't worry, I'll try to say something later to piss you off.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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PS The KJV babble I have says, "And God said, Let us make man in our image, 1 Cor. 11.7 after our likeness.."
Just how many gods are there?
BC,
Excellent question. The trinity is one: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit)
"I and my Father are one," to paraphrase Jesus.
Always have been, GOD IS, and always will be into the future for eternity.
Some things just are not explainable. It takes faith to understand.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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bc- "just how many gods are they"
There is one God!
God the Father.
God the Son.
God the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Trinity!
One God, in Three Persons.
Therefore, Us!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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By the way, good thing many of you GOD, Jesus, and Christian bashers are not public school teachers, because you would have to bite your tongue. It would probably be hard for many of you to do so.
I don't agree with the teacher getting fined, maybe a repramand would have been better. I suppose you could always use the excuss, "Oh did I say that outloud? I'm sorry I didn't mean to. I thought I was just thinking it only. My bad?" Although I've never used that tactic (probably wouldn't work).
As public school teachers we can not offend. Many topics in class I can not ever discuss. But I always encourage my students to open their minds and don't be afraid to look down rabbit holes. You'll never know unless you look at both sides of the coin. Don't be afraid to have your reality challenged. Always ask questions. Say, prove it to me!
So I come here to ST and "let my hair down."
Student Who Sued Teacher For Saying Bible Was BS (and won) Getting Slammed With Court Costs
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6928690
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/court-corbett-fees-2636155-farnan-district
The student's website:
http://chadfarnan.com/
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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PS The KJV babble I have says, "And God said, Let us make man in our image, 1 Cor. 11.7 after our likeness.."
Just how many gods are there?
I have a good explanation for this one. The writer was employing the Royal We.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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It happens I am going to see the Dalai Lama in a couple of hours (yes, he even comes to Okinawa!) and I sure don't intend to kiss his ass - or even his hand for that matter.
The difference between the Christians and the Dalai Lama is that they claim to have the only truth and he has always said there are many paths to the same God. He has also said that if Buddhism conflicts with science, then Buddhism should change and he participates in a multi day seminar every year with western scientists looking for common ground. That's a big difference!
His appeal by the way is mainly as a spiritual leader, however much people sympathize with the Tibetan cause. One could say that he is the world's most influential spiritual leader in fact, precisely because he is not sectarian and he doesn't get involved in people's personal lives and try to dictate what goes on in the bedroom as do so many Christian leaders.
The Dalai Lama's values are universal and he actually lives them. A lot of other religious leaders could learn from him.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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It takes faith to understand.
Obviously.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Thor is the mightiest champion of the Aesir Gods, the Protector and Hallower. It is Thor who defends Midgard and Asgard from the Jötunar (Giants: often destructive forces of entropy and chaos). The Thunder God's primary role is to maintain order and to protect the Gods, humans, alfs, and the Earth from destruction. Thor's famous Dwarf-made Hammer Mjollnir ("Crusher"?,"Miller"? or possibly cognate to the Russian molnya, "lightning") has the power of Lightning, and always returns to His hand when thrown. With its power and His enormous might, doubled by His magic Girdle of Strength, and the iron gauntlets with which He handles Mjollnir, He prevails against His enemies, and clears the ways of harmful wights. It is said that no thing living can stand against Thor. Although Thor is known as the Champion of the Gods, He is not known to take part in the battles of men on Earth. His strength comes from His holiness, which is unbearable to ill-willed beings, and He is not a God of unprovoked aggression. One of Thor's names is Óku-Thór (Driver-Thor), for He travels the skies and Earth in his chariot drawn by magical goats. Rolling thunder is the sound of Thor's chariot wheels as He rides the skies.
Thor's appearance is that of a mature man, tall, muscular, red haired and bearded, with very intense eyes. He is often symbolically depicted with wide staring eyes, possibly a sign of His spiritual might. Thor has a sometimes brooding, sometimes jolly nature, much like the weather. He is known for His great appetite for food and especially for mead, as well as for His willingness to battle giants. The Thunderer is known for travelling in His chariot drawn by the magical goats Tanngrísnir (Tooth-Gnasher) and Tanngnjóstr (Tooth-Grinder). If He wishes, Thor can kill and eat these goats' flesh for dinner, and by placing their bones upon their skin, awaken them in the morning to life by passing His hammer over them. Thor's realm in Asgard is a place called Thrudvangr ("Plains of Strength"), and his hall is Bilskirnir. Odin says of Thor's hall:
"Five hundred apartments and yet forty more I think are in Bilskirnir in all. Of the buildings whose roofs I know, I know my son's is the greatest"
The son of the sky God Wodan and the Goddess of Earth, Thor partakes of the nature of both. His lightning as the link between Sky and Earth symbolises the might generated by the meeting of opposites. Thor's mate is Sif, a Goddess about whom little lore has survived into the Christian era. It is believed by most modern Asatruar that She is a Goddess of the ripening grain. Her hair is golden, like the crops at harvest-tide. While He is in some respects a sky God of storms and weather, Thor maintains His connection to Earth in His aspect as Bringer of Fertility to crops. Thor has a powerful daughter, Thrudr ("Strength"), by Sif, and two mighty sons by a Jotun-lover: Modi ("Bravery") and Magni ("Main-Strength").
Agriculture is under Freyr and Freya's aegis, but is Thor's realm of activity as well. There is folklore that links lightning to the growth of crops. The Hammer of Thor can indeed be seen as a phallic fertility symbol, that hallows the crops to bring forth fruits. The Thunderer's bolts bring fertility to Sif's crops, and His rains nourish them. Thor historically was the God of farmers, the people of the Land. In a time when fertility of the crops meant life or death for the tribe, one can see that for the people Thor's role was a vital one indeed. One meaning of the rune Haglaz, "hail", is fertility. If an early storm--of Thor's brewing-- brought hail, when it melted it was thought to have a fertilising effect on the Earth. It is easy to see why Thor's hammers became popular amulets for health and vitality. Health, wholeness and holiness are linguistically linked in the Germanic languages, and indeed all three may be seen as Thor's gifts.
It is intriguing that the Protector God of the Northern pantheon, the upholder of cosmic order, is the God of Thunder and Lightning, considered by Indo-Europeans for thousands of years to be manifestations of divinity. One does not think of Jove without His thunderbolts, or of Thor without the accompanying roar of Thunder. The bone-shaking vibration of thunder has from the most ancient times been seen of as the sound of ultimate reality, communicating the most awesome truths to humankind. It is clear that to the human psyche, regardless of culture, the sound of thunder and the flash of lightning, most awesome of natural phenomena, are glimpses of the divine Mystery. AUM, the great mantra of the Buddhists, is the sound of thunder proceeding from vajra, the flash of cosmic enlightenment, and the perception at once of the harmony, wholeness, and order of all, transcending limited perception. Holiness and the lightning's supreme power are coupled to control the forces of chaos. It tells us much that lightning, though destructive at times, is nonetheless an attribute of the God Protector of humanity and the defender of life on Earth. I find this particularly relevant now, when science has advanced theory that life on earth was caused by lightning striking the "primordial" soup of Earth's early enzyme-laden seas.
As their special protector, Thor has always been the most beloved of Gods to the common folk. He was and is much honoured among Heathens. Thor's hammer was and is used in Heathen marriage ceremonies to bless the bride, and at funerals to hallow the pyre. On some of the ancient rune stones, Thor is called upon to hallow the runes. A large ceremonial Thor's hammer is used by the Goði in some Asatru kindreds to hallow ritual space, and offerings such as mead. Small amulets of Thor's hammer were worn in Viking times for protection, to signify that Thor was a personal friend among the Gods, and to publicly show Heathen troth. Many modern Asatruar wear Thor's hammers today for the same reasons.
Thor is a great traveller, and is known to go on journeys to the East (Giant-land) with other Gods. One of His companions on many of these journeys is Loki, although he is not a person for whom Thor has an excess of affection. Loki's cunning, sneakiness, and deceitfulness are certainly in opposition to Thor's directness and honesty. However, they seem a well matched pair of opposites, especially when it comes to having adventures. Loki, who through cleverness excels at both getting others into and out of trouble, and Thor, whose frank nature is both susceptible to and immune from deceits. Their sometime partnership adds conflict and interest to the tales we have recorded of them. When Loki does something truly terrible, however, it is Thor to whom the Gods turn to remedy the situation. Loki respects Thor, mightiest of living things, and does not relish the thought of having the Thunderer's hammer raised against him. It is, after all, Thor's job to see that Jötunish chaos does not get out of hand.
Thor has a sense of humour, and is not above making Himself foolish to some extent in a good cause. He does not brook insults, however, and especially finds the harm of innocents unamusing. When Loki crosses the line from sarcastic to dangerous, Thor is ready to step in. The God of Thunder dressed as a bride seems a farcical story, but it may be a memory of a more deeply significant shamanic tale. The fact that Thor's quest for his hammer (which is an obvious phallic symbol) involves dressing as a woman (an archetypal shamanic initiation for males) seems to indicate that this is the case.
As with all the Norse Gods, Thor is looked upon as a friend by his devotees. Thor is dedicated to the protection of human kind, and He is good to call upon when travelling or in dire situations. His is the power to break through obstacles and strike to the heart of the matter. Thor brings freshness, honesty, directness to a situation. The Well-Wisher of Men can give clarity, and bestow spiritual enlightenment. As Thor loves companionship and feasting, He is good to invoke at feasts, and brings jollity to celebrations. Master of powerful natural forces, Thor is trusted and loved by the folk because He uses His awesome might to protect and keep order, not to harm and destroy. Like His Father Odin, Thor is very concerned with preserving the Earth and all Life.
Remember Thursday is Thor's Day. So us English speaking folks are all worshiping an old Heathen God!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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That's why the Quakers refused to call the days of the week by their names and labeled them First Day, Second Day etc. instead.
Your point however, is well taken in that there is no such thing as "pure Christianity". All of it and every other religion has been filtered through the previous religions and cultures.
Take the Christmas tree for example, it also comes to us through the pagan Germans and they were forbidden in most churches throughout the 19th century, but became so popular thanks to the German immigrants that now even Jews have them as long as they're decorated in blue and white and called Hannakah bushes!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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so no one's got any idea about what the words in Genesis, taken literally, actually mean? that's odd...
who's mocking christianity, certainly not me... but it would seem if the Bible is the literal word of God to be taken such, that someone must have some idea of what those words are... and the meaning is not to be altered or interpreted as anything other than what is there...
If christians cannot agree among themselves, after 2009 years, it is more than odd...
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WBraun
climber
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So Ed ...?
Was the linear accelerator designed by some intelligence ......
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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enough Werner, I'm not interested in answering obvious questions... people have said that the Bible is the literal word of God, so I would like to understand just what that means.
Taken literally, the Bible seems much more limited in scope than I had remembered. MH2 talks about chaos, but there is none mentioned there... God creates light, fiat lux and then decides it is good. Sort of a half-assed way to intelligent design, don't you think? Just through something out there and see what happens. "Whoa, that stuff is pretty good! I'll keep it!"
The people who built the Stanford Linear Accelerator didn't just through stuff out there.
But hey, I'm not questioning that the Bible is literally true, I just want to know what it means that God doesn't seem to have an idea about what it is that is being created... oh, and no need to be careful with pronouns either, we also learn that man is created in his image, so he is a he... at least that's what is written in Genesis.
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WBraun
climber
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So if you know the obvious answer to my question then you know the answer to yours.
I just want to know what it means that God doesn't seem to have an idea about what it is that is being created.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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It's not obvious if it is written the way it is... and there is no other way of reading it than to take the words literally... no interpretation...
...no one that worked at Stanford was winging it.
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WBraun
climber
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It's not obvious if it is written the way it is
Yep
...no one that worked at Stanford was winging it.
Yep
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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There is no one like Jesus, accept God! Everything He did and said is the coolest ever!
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MH2
climber
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people have said that the Bible is the literal word of God, so I would like to understand just what that means.
Those people are wrong, Ed.
Further, it makes no sense to talk about 'the literal word of God' unless you specify a language. I find it hard to believe that God spoke to any human in that human's own language, although it does seem possible that a symbolic system was used which got messages across despite inevitable misunderstandings. After all, words only represent things; they are not the thing itself. The same is likely to be true of religions.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Sorry Gobee but Thor is way cooler than Jesus.
Thor has the cool hammer, he creates thunder. He parties. He's buff.
Jesus had a lot of cool teachings, but Thor is the coolest God.
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WBraun
climber
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MH2 -- "I find it hard to believe that God spoke to any human in that human's own language .."
If people can talk to you in plain English why wouldn't God be able to.
Most of you are total mental speculators projecting all your biases, insecurities, mental hang ups, fears, happiness, distress etc etc etc onto the the world around you.
You do not see it the way it is, but by your projections onto the world outside of yourselves.
You color the world with your own faults.
That is the main stumbling block .........
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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I heard that god's literal language is 'C'.
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MH2
climber
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If people can talk to you in plain English why wouldn't God be able to.
I think you are using logic where it doesn't apply but otherwise I agree with you.
I heard that God's binary language is 0(death) 1(life).
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WBraun
climber
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I think you are using logic
You just did it again: "I think"
This means you do not know (you're guessing) and are speculating and projecting again ......
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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I think I really like Piccard's continued presence on this thread, therefore, I do.
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WBraun
climber
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You're like the guys who row their boat out into the ocean to dive for the pearl and stick their head in the water and say we didn't see any pearls.
So no pearl, instead goes and buys the pearl from a vendor who's selling fakes.
Another guy rows out there but never prepared himself correctly to dive deep enough. He comes back and fails.
Thus the failed guys say "there is no pearls out there"
They never went to the master diver to learn.
Thus the idiots imitate the master and claim knowledge.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Werner how do you know everything you believe is correct?
How did you end up with Vedic beliefs?
I know I joke around a lot and don't take this stuff very seriously but I'm sincere with these questions. How does a dedicated climber who lives in Yosemite become involved in an Eastern religion? Or are these beliefs you had since youth?
I really doubt a lot of the religous beliefs and find some things like the caste system offensive, but I really do appreciate concepts of Karma and Yoga, like I appreciate the unconditional love teachings of Jesus.
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WBraun
climber
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How did I end up with Vedic beliefs?
I studied everything and dug and dug and dug deeper.
I did not stop digging deeper.
How do you know everything you believe is correct?
This has to tested in a scientific method.
Do it yourself, there are grades of knowledge.
Kindergarten to advanced schools.
Just reading a book is kindergarten. You have to apply the knowledge with experience that correlates to/with the truth.
Just like my crude example of the pearl diver. It's so simple.
But everyone makes it so complicated because they themselves are so complicated.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Werner,
Thinking is bad? Speculating--making educated, logic-based guesses--about possibilities and probablities of things that cannot be known with certainty is bad?
And just knowing is good? Being certain about things you CANNOT be certain about (unless you are god; are you god?) is good?
What separates you, what makes you right and others wrong, how are you any different from a fundamentalist---when you express the view that your certainty about things you cannot be certain about; just accepting what the vedas tell you--is preferable to using your mind for what it does best?
Thinking and speculating have given us so much of what has bettered our lives--religion gives us nothing but mindless certitude.
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WBraun
climber
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Wanda
Then just keep guessing and groping around in the dark.
A smart man will get a flashlight or headlamp and find his way.
Thus he's thinking correctly .....
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MH2
climber
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I think that language isn't up to every purpose but we use it anyway.
I just took the dogs out for a walk and God wouldn't shut up; the slap of feet on wet pavement, the roar of wind in the cedar, a woman taking her daily swim pushing against the wind out of the harbor, gray clouds on Eagle Bluff, the sweep of El Cap, the Moon circling, time and space stretching away back to approx 13.8 billion years. I don't think that God has any message beyond what you can see for yourself, or, if you are a dog, smell.
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WBraun
climber
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MH2 .... Yes
This is intelligence, you're willing to accept this much.
Not that one says: "everything is bullsh'it"
The inferior energy of God, is matter manifested in different elements, namely earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Trust in God and His Son for He is GOOD!
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dirtbag
climber
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The New Testament = edited hearsay.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oh, Why Thank You!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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One thing I like about the eastern faiths (and for me I think Hindu teachers have done the best job of explaining the process), is that they emphasize the interior experience of religion rather than outward mandatory beliefs and dogmas.
Yogananda has written, "spiritual laws work like mathematics", and I can tell you from experience that if you practice certain methods with an open mind and a humble heart, certain dramatic events will happen in the interior of your mind just as they describe, and in the same order.
One can alter one's biochemistry through certain ancient practices involving breath and mind, one gains insights and a better character and more happiness as a result, and because that worked, one accepts other teachings that one hasn't experienced personally - or not. Here again, Hinduism is the most open of all faiths. You can think of God as father, mother, husband, wife, friend, lover, or child, a tree, a rock, a cloud in the sky, or whatever else works for your level of consciousness. You can also change your object of veneration as your understanding matures.
The big questions for 21st century thinkers is what all this signifies. Buddha concluded 2,500 years ago that one does this without aid of an outside power, that we all have the capacity to be awakened and the Taoists pretty much conclude the same. The Hindus are more theistic for the most part though they also claim at the highest levels that what happens is that the little egoistic self becomes one with the true Self. Hence, Yogananda named his organization the Self Realization Fellowship.
Scientists like Ed say it's all a matter of manipulating the material world, the physical and chemical processes of the body, and JL and I have reached the conclusion that there is a consciousness that permeates the material and yet exists apart from it at the same time - the Observer as JL puts it.
Some Christians of course have had similar experiences, I just think that the East provides a better methodology, a better blueprint for getting to the same understanding. Eastern methods are more efficient if you like, probably because the interior methods taught by Jesus were seen as a threat to the organized church, were driven underground, and slowly disappeared.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan
You're definitely one of the more rare and eloquently advanced conscious folks around here.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Werner-
Thanks, but I'm still just a beginner. I am fortunate in getting paid to teach courses on Asian religion so I've also had a practical reason to spend a lot of time learning about them.
I dare say you get more good karma from your profession though, than I do mine!
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MH2
climber
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Raymond Smullyan on Brahmanic philosophy:
Obviously I make a distinction between your sensations, feelings, and thoughts and mine. But from this it does not follow that the agent who experiences your thoughts is different from the agent who experiences mine. The question is, Are the agents really the same? It may seem completely counterintuitive that they are. But this intuition really appears to be culturally induced. It seems that the intuition of most Westerners is, "Of course they are not the same. I am I, and you are you, and that's all there is to it." But the intuition of many Easterners really seems to be that you and I are literally the same person.
Is not this the central issue of Brahmanism? It strikes me as far more radical and thoroughgoing than the Hegelian and post-Hegelian ideas of the Absolute, which is something like an "oversoul" that, so to speak, includes your soul and mine but is somehow infinitely greater than both. By contrast, the Brahmanic idea is far more drastic. Indeed, it appears to come close to outraging logic itself. It is that you and I are not parts of some supreme being but that we are the very same being.
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WBraun
climber
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It is that you and I are not parts of some supreme being but that we are the very same being.
Part parcel.
A particle of gold is also gold, a drop of water from the ocean is also salty, and similarly, we the living entities, being part and parcel of the supreme controller, God, have all the qualities of the Supreme in minute quantity because we are minute.
We are trying to control nature, and this tendency to control is there because it is in God.
Thus "acintya bheda abheda tattva"
Simultaneous oneness and difference ........we have all the qualities but not the quantity.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Breathing happens, seeing happens, hearing happens, smelling happens, taste happens, touch happens, the heart beats, with or without us, it's a miracle, nothing we do!
Doing any of those will not forgive your sins.
Just as the stomach is for food, and food is for the stomach, you use it with thanksgiving, one day we won't need it!
Proof is God was always God, we think we can evolve into god? God's ways are not are ways, He is eternal we are but a moment. We are nothing He is everything!
Your inside life and outside life are two sides of the same coin!
Give to God what is due Him!
This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Since immigration may yet again become a polarizing issue during upcoming elections, I thought I would throw this out there.
A Zapatista slogan is in harmony with the concept of mutual aid: "For everyone, everything, for us, nothing" (Para todos todo, para nosotros nada)." I don't know where I heard this but, only god is best. I have also heard that only god is perfect. Also, I have heard that there are no gods (part parcel...?)
Another key element of the Zapatista ideology is their aspiration to do politics in a new, participatory way, from the 'bottom-up' instead of 'top-down.'" - Wikipedia "Zapatismo"// <---Maybe anti rap bolting?, not that there is anything wrong with that, as long as its done right and leaves some adventure for the rest.
The Sixth Declaration of the Selva Lacandona, released by the group in three communiquéés during the final week of June, affirming, "What we are going to do in Mexico and in the world, we are going to do without arms, with a civil and peaceful movement, and without neglecting or ceasing to support our communities. from www.culturalsurvival.org (search Zapatista)
Finally, thanks for the thoughts on finding a way. I believe that if many of the kids I see, know that there is goodness in themselves, and the people that surround them, they might come to appreciate it and nurture it. Still, with the daily poverty, violence, and struggles to make a better life, some become lost.
http://www.npr.mobi/templates/story/story.php?storyId=113704090
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Christ Our Advocate
1 John 2:1, My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I'm sorta getting used to these "Spam for God" posts...
"Enlarge your righteousness in 4 days!"
perhaps Christianity came along at a good time, while Christ abhorred the market, he made sure to make marketing, in the form of proselytizing, a central tenant of his philosophy...
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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As long as we have gobee here to identify our sins, we will always know who we are....
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WBraun
climber
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LOL jaybro
Anyways .....
How does this work?
The Christians say all you have to do is say sorry every time you do bad and your forgiven.
So the mafia offs guys all the time and grinds them up at the butcher shop and sells the meat as sausages and then goes to the priest and says sorry.
Then they go to heaven .....?
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dirtbag
climber
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"YES! YES! JESUS H. TAP-DANCING CHRIST... I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT! "
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WBraun
climber
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Ed
Ok I read that.
But what happens to the people that never atone for their sins.
Do they go to hell eternally like they say or should I say the "interpretation of Christ".
In real life if you say sorry after offing your competition and grinding them up for sausages the judge doesn't let you go .....
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Werner, dude, slow down on your reading speed. You might have skipped over too lightly "Principle 6: God Blesses Dead Christians As a Reward to Living Christians"
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Werner, clearly all Mafioso are catholic italians from Chicago and New York (also Nevada) if they don't go to heaven, nobody, gets in!
Edit, did Jim Carol got to heaven?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdftnLhRCuQ
Clearly Elwood did, he was "On a mission from Gawd."
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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My friend Don told me about this one;
It Is No Secret
Words and music by Stuart Hamblin
Romans 4:21
"And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised,
he was able also to perform."
The chimes of time ring out the news,
Another day is through.
Someone slipped and fell,
Was that someone you?
You may have longed for added strength,
Your courage to renew,
Do not be disheartened,
For I have news for you!!
Chorus
It is no secret what God can do.
What He's done for others,
He'll do for you.
With arms wide open,
He'll pardon you.
It is no secret what God can do.
There is no night for in His light
You'll never walk alone.
Always feel at home
Wherever you may roam.
There is no power can conquer you
While God is on your side
Take Him at His promise,
Don't run away and hide.
Chorus
It is no secret what God can do.
What He's done for others,
He'll do for you.
With arms wide open,
He'll pardon you.
It is no secret what God can do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t36Ja1HleYQ&feature=related
The Elvis version
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"Then they go to heaven .....?"
You have to repent! And you don't keep being a bad guy!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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“I have accepted Him as my Lord and Savior. The Lord Jesus Christ is truly God."
-Jeffery Dahmer
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jesus; Almighty, Alpha and the Omega
Revelation 1:8, “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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he probably would have said: "I am the Ālaph and the Tau" in Aramaic....
Philosophy that is based on the authority of a person or a set of people, and that is selective in it's choice of who is allowed as a member of that philosophical sect, the acceptance of "revealed knowledge" or the adoption of a particular code... all of these things are problematic to me.
As a scientist I am trained to be suspicious of the subjective, of our internal "knowledge" and seek empirical evidence which is explainable by rigorous mathematical logic to the body of knowledge of the physical universe. This is a work in progress, we do not know how to explain everything in such a manner. It is also provisional because it depends on observations and experimentation that has finite resolution. Science recognizes these limitations and is provisional because of these limitations. Often the mathematical logic does not exist and has to be created, but by the strictures of mathematics. We are inventing new parts of the language too, to describe what we need to explain.
All this is open to anyone. Science is not a hidden or protected system, nor is mathematics. Everyone has access to nature, and can experiment and observe and do mathematics. For the most part, the science and mathematics is published in the open literature, you just have to go down to the library to gain access to it, or surf around on the web.
How well you have done is judged by others, your peers, looking at your result and seeing if the logic supports your conclusions, this is not a subjective judgment, but an analysis based on the rules of mathematical logic. In principle, everything you have done is available to be looked at, and you have described what you have done so that anyone else could do it. If you have any emotional attachment at all, it is that you'd like to know if you're right or wrong, and spend as little time being wrong as possible.
Emotionality, intuition, subjectivity, sloppy thinking... all these things we try to confront and reduce. Many think this reduces our experience of the world around us and shuts us off from what is real, I do not think so, I think exactly the opposite, that it opens us up to the greater unity of nature, and to a more elegant and powerful vision of what the universe is.
It is just possible that we don't need miracles to explain anything...
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WBraun
climber
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The science of God and the individual soul is open to everyone.
Anyone that follows the "bonafide" system will come to the same conclusion of the existence of God and the soul.
Just by having the word "miracle" means there is miracle.
Just as the word "water" describes water and water does exist, but the word water alone will never quench ones thirst ....
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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"I don't need faith, I have experience," Joseph Campbell.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Ed-
You do a really great job at explaining science. No one can read what you have written and claim they don't know what science is or how it operates. Clearly this is also your path in life, and seemingly the source of most of what you believe in. I can also understand why you would think this superior to the "God spam" that goes on here.
What I'm not clear on is statements like "Emotionality, intuition, subjectivity, sloppy thinking". These could also be applied to art, music, poetry etc. Am I correct in assuming that you are not against the latter, but they just don't interest you as much as science?
And if that is the case, then why do you feel so much more strongly about the religious claims based on "Emotionality, intuition, subjectivity, sloppy thinking". Does this stem from it's connection to past abuses of power, that you find it lacking in aesthetics compared to art, music or poetry, less functional etc?
I'm not trying to argue any particular point here, just refine some of my own views since I haven't thought about a lot of this for many years.
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WBraun
climber
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No miracles have been observe in the modern world
You're not even good at making a simple sentence.
Bone dry mental speculation with no life is what make Dr F dry up in the desert pricked by the cactus of knowledge.
Even your cactus has more understanding then you.
That's why you cultivate them ......
Pascal will destroy you.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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If you want to understand the universe...
but if you want to understand humans you interact through human expression. While how the mind works may be subject to science and ultimately explainable, what that mind produces probably cannot be determined. That expression is probably not as free as we think it is, a question that many philosophies address.
Art, literature, emotion, all express what goes on inside of humans, the human experience. It is ultimately limiting, and perhaps a bit self-obsessive, but it is what we have, it is what we know. No doubt there are many legitimate science topics trying to understand these things. But the product of our minds, that is our thought, is safely concealed by the vast complexity of it's making.
I appreciate art, music, literature, and all forms of human expression even as I strive to separate them from my thinking of how the universe is put together. I don't strive for truth, I strive for understanding.
But so much revolves around human-centric thinking that it is hard for us humans to properly gauge our role in the universe... that we misguage that role is not unexpected.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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any system that leads you to the "right" conclusion is not a real system, it is a dogma
a system that produces knowledge free from preconception of what the answer is, I believe, is absent in philosophy and religion... except one, science.
Is it really an adventure, Werner, when you know where you're going and how to get there?
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WBraun
climber
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We have seen your Psychologists.
No one wants to go near one
Fort Hood
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WBraun
climber
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a system that produces knowledge free from preconception of what the answer is, I believe, is absent in philosophy and religion...
Then you have never seen real knowledge.
You are projecting your own limited self onto how knowledge should be knowledge.
Limited is the key word.
Once one is free from all limitations then the adventure begins.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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So Ed, it seems the scientist would not perceive religion and philosophy as different from art, music, and literature if they understood themselves as expressions of human understanding and creativity rather than some form of universal Truth? And of course, if they could be disconnected from political power?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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political power is another human expression.
I think the problem is in the need for truth and a greater meaning to existence. The need for a higher authority as an inducement to "do the right thing." And a desire to separate from what appears to be the savagery of the natural domain.
The rejection of our origins, and the ideal of human exceptionalism have very negative consequences in human activity.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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No one is completely free, your still in a body in a world with natural laws, and civil (mans) laws?
God has His spiritual laws, and the Bible tells us what they are, the science (or study) of them helps us live in harmony with God and are brothers and sisters! But you have to follow them if they are going to work!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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This life is not all there is, there are no U-HAUL'S on a hearse!
So don't invest all you are here, because you will have to leave it behind!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I think Gobee meant to say "I believe that there is more than just our life..." he cannot make a factual statement based on anything but that belief, which is cool.
Werner, how do you know that pursuing a line of scientific reasoning is not, in fact, freeing oneself from the illusion of everyday existence?
I think you have studied well, but incompletely, shutting off the possibility that there may be many ways to understand just how our uneducated perception misrepresents reality.
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MH2
climber
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Ed, it is really great to have you as exponent of the power and beauty of science. When you used the phrase 'mathematical logic' I cringed, though, since I believe that it took somewhat over 400 pages of exposition in Principia Mathematica to nail down a proof that 1+1=2 using that approach.
I have only a lay understanding, but in a book for people like me, The Mathematical Experience, Philip J. Davis says that almost all practical examples of mathematical proof contain intuitive leaps.
Excerpts from another favorite author quoting others:
My favorite writers are the Taoists such as Laotse, Liehtse, and Chuangtse. They give neither analogies nor any rational explanations whatsoever! In total defiance of all logic, they soar their merry way upward like birds in free flight.
"If an ordinary man, when he is about to die, could only see the five elements of consciousness as void; the four physical elements as not constituting an "I"; the real Mind as formless and neither coming nor going; his nature as something neither commencing at his birth nor perishing at his death, but as whole and motionless in its very depths; his Mind and environmental objects as one - if he could really accomplish this, he would receive Enlightenment in a flash. He would no longer be entangled by the Triple World; he would be a World-Transcender. He would be without even the faintest tendency toward rebirth. If he should behold the glorious sight of all the Buddhas coming to welcome him, surrounded by every kind of gorgeous manifestation, he would feel no desire to approach them. If he should behold all sorts of horrific forms surrounding him, he would experience no terror. He would just be himself, oblivious of conceptual thought and one with the Absolute. He would have attained the state of unconditioned being."
text in quotes from John Blofield transl., The Zen Teachings of Huang Po (New York: Grove Press, 1958), pp. 45-46.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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"Once one is free from all limitations then the adventure begins."
-Now we're talkin'!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"-Now we're talkin'! "
Two guys drinking in a tall building in New York.
One guy tells the other, on windy days like today you can float on the winds, and steps over the rail and floats a 1000 feet up, then comes back to the rail. He tells the other guy that he can do it too.
So he gets the nerve, climbs over the rail and steps off and fall to the ground!
The Bartender says Superman your a jerk when you get drunk!
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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a priest and a rabbi
are sittin' at a park
bench when a boy walks
on by.
the priest says:
"should we screw him?"
the rabbi says:
"out of what?"
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WBraun
climber
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Dr F -- "I want to talk to one"
You wouldn't recognized one if you were talking to one.
You're stuck in a deep well, and that's the extent of all your knowledge.
A frog in a well thinks that the well is all in all. Then when the frog is told there is an ocean it can not even conceive of such a thing.
Thus it remains in the well happily ever after ......
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WBraun
climber
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Hahaha
You been waiting all this time ....LOL
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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All power to dark mater...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
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All power to dark mater...
You leave our mothers out of this!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Gobee- "Superman, your a jerk when you get drunk".
That's hilarious Gobee, I am going to hafta remember that one.
Hahaha!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 10, 2009 - 01:44am PT
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Dr.F.,
Just because the devil wants everyone not to believe in God, doesn't mean it's true, don't believe his lies!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 10, 2009 - 08:11am PT
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Did you ever consider Dr. F., that you may have just traded one extreme delusion for another?
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Nov 10, 2009 - 11:59am PT
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"I find it amazing that posters whom have never experienced a relationship with Christ, find it so easy to pass off those of us who have that relationship as delusional"
Do you consider adults that believe in Santa Claus delusional? How about adults that tech it to their kids in the exact same way they teach them about Christ? How is that different? Just asking.
Dave
P.S. Also consider the sicko indoctrination that takes place when kids are brainwashed into believing that there is a Santa. Now that is just evil.
[edit to add] I am not a true atheist because as a scientist, I cannot rule out the possibility of God and therefore, cannot believe that there is none. I can only evaluate the probability given the existing information on the subject. Given that all documentation on the subject is very old and contradicts all other documentation, that probability sure seems low. For instance, all Egyptian writings mostly contradict Christian writings. None can have more weight than the other in a comparison and therefore, both are equally suspect as being falacy.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 10, 2009 - 12:03pm PT
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Jesus; Anointed
Psalm 2:2, The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against the Lord and against his Anointed, saying,...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 10, 2009 - 12:07pm PT
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rectorsquid-
If only more atheists were scientific and logical rather than polemical about their beliefs!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 10, 2009 - 03:37pm PT
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It seems better suited here!
The missing Link?
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 10, 2009 - 09:33pm PT
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BTW, PBS is showing part two of its program on human evolution at 8 local time. The last episode was very enjoyable.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 11, 2009 - 12:39am PT
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in Gobee's latest spam above a very strange argument is set up:
"Like today, the enemies of truth found it easy to criticize but difficult to explain how so many lives were transformed from despair to hope, from anger to love, from enmity to Christ to fellowship with Him."
I don't find it difficult to explain at all. One makes a choice in life, it is not so hard to discern what is "good" and what is "bad." It seems the oft asked question, by believers, is: what makes me choose to do "good."
None believers can choose to do "good" too, nothing prevents them from doing it... and if you choose to do good because your best bud is Jesus, well fine... believing that something good is going to happen to you because you do good is also fine... be it the cycle of reincarnation or the idea of a reward after death... doing good "just because" is legitimate too. I don't see that Christians have any special place here...
The questioner in the above quote is set up to be an "enemy of truth," I guess for disagreeing. But lives transformed in the manner stated above can happen for a number of reasons, not exclusively because one accepts Jesus and Christianity.
Why must there be such a dichotomy? we deplore such things when expressed by other religions.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 11, 2009 - 01:53am PT
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I agree, that people should not have to be in fear of what will happen to them in order to behave. In fact, I like the Hindu notion that the universe was created as God play, for God's entertainment, and our role is to play well on the stage of life, always being aware that our current lives are just theater in a much longer drama.
Then there is the Confucian notion which works very well in Japan, that one behaves well so as not to bring shame on one's family, friends, neighborhood, or country. One behaves well to create a safe and harmonious society, not out of fear of the afterlife.
Another good point made up above was the estrangement of western religions from nature and the idea of human exceptionalism. Since Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism stress the harmony of man and nature and respect for all life based on the belief that animals too have souls, human's relationship to nature there is quite different.
Bottom line: A lot of the valid critiques of religion made on this thread apply only to western Abrahamic religions and not to all religions on this planet. If one considers religion as a universal human experience as an anthropologist must, then one sees a different and less antagonistic picture.
And one also sees that no one religion has an exclusive claim to truth.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 11, 2009 - 02:08am PT
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So truth is higher than religion?
Axiomatic truth ....
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
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Nov 11, 2009 - 02:15am PT
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Would now be a good time to talk about solipsism? Sometimes I think you were all invented to keep me company and entertained.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 11, 2009 - 04:20am PT
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We're doing our best Mighty Hiker!
First though, I must admit that I had to look up solipsism. It's not a part of my household vocabulary.
I don't know about the others, but of course I think the material world outside myself can also be known. I just have problems with the materialists saying that everything about my solipsistic self is material. And even greater problems with the religionists who claim that they know how both myself and the material world should be, especially when it just happens to be exactly like their particular western, Anglo Saxon, North American view of the world.
Meanwhile I'll also add that the inner study and control of one's mind in my experience, is far harder than understanding either the physical or religious world.
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Nov 11, 2009 - 11:34am PT
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What surprises me the most is our belief that we can use incomplete information and (what seems to us like) rational thought to derive absolute truth. I guess we have to believe something.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Nov 11, 2009 - 12:07pm PT
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from camille paglia:
"As an atheist who respects and studies religion, I believe it is fair to ask what drives obsessive denigrators of religion. Neither extreme rationalism nor elite cynicism are adequate substitutes for faith, which fulfills a basic human need -- which is why religion will continue to thrive in our war-torn world."
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 11, 2009 - 02:34pm PT
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and probably the ultimate cosmic irony, religion and faith are probably also part of our genetic heritage... it is hard wired in... by the very process that many of faith find objectionable.
Go figure...
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MH2
climber
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Nov 11, 2009 - 03:06pm PT
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Thanks for that one Ed; truth is stranger than fiction and usually funnier, too.
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Nov 11, 2009 - 10:15pm PT
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Gobee,
did you read Historical Jesus yet? I placed the link in here previously.
I don't think the gospel rejection is contemporary.
Dr. F.
have read the book yet that I provided. One of the doctors noted
in the book graduated and or did his work from Master of Jesus college.
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Nov 11, 2009 - 10:26pm PT
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No, can you provide me a ISBN for ordering etc.?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2009 - 10:30pm PT
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And here is a book for Gobee, who likes to copy and paste from his book.
Atheist Universe: The Thinking Person's Answer to Christian Fundamentalism
by David Mills
Book Description
Clear, concise, and persuasive, Atheist Universe details exactly why God is unnecessary to explain the universe and life's diversity, organization, and beauty. The author thoroughly rebuts every argument that claims to "prove" God's existence — arguments based on logic, common sense, philosophy, ethics, history and science.
Atheist Universe avoids the esoteric language and logic used by philosophers and presents its scientific evidence in simple lay terms, making it a richly entertaining and easy-to-read introduction to atheism. A comprehensive primer, it addresses all the historical and scientific questions, including: Is there proof that God does not exist? What evidence is there of Jesus's resurrection? Can creation science reconcile scripture with the latest scientific discoveries?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2009 - 10:32pm PT
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God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
by Christopher Hitchens
God: The Failed Hypothesis. How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist
by Victor J. Stenger
Richard Dawkins, Author of the New York Times best-seller The God Delusion
"Darwin chased God out of his old haunts in biology, and he scurried for safety down the rabbit hole of physics. The laws and constants of the universe, we were told, are too good to be true: a set-up, carefully tuned to allow the eventual evolution of life. It needed a good physicist to show us the fallacy, and Victor Stenger lucidly does so. The faithful won't change their minds, of course (that is what faith means) but Victor Stenger drives a pack of energetic ferrets down the last major bolt hole and God is running out of refuges in which to hide. I learned an enormous amount from this splendid book."
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 12, 2009 - 02:08am PT
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And I'd like to recommend a good book that I just finished titled, The Death of the Mythic God and the Rise of Evolutionary Spirituality.
If religion and faith in God are hardwired into our brains, then it seems to me a better way of dealing with the problems created by religion than just attacking it, is to try to raise the general understanding of God to a level compatible with modern science. This means getting rid of the anthropomorphic, tribal sky God and moving toward an understanding of God as embedded within nature and ourselves.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 12, 2009 - 02:27am PT
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Meanwhile, I just received an ad from Science magazine that made me laugh and want to buy it to wear to the first night of my Physical Anthropology class. As an old Berkeley liberal from the 1960's, I say, Long Live Che Darwin!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 12, 2009 - 03:28am PT
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Having much practical experience in how many Religions actually get practiced in lands where they are in Majority, I can say with assurance that Hinduism has similar but different problems with misinterpretation, corruption and abuse as Christianity has.
Abuse of Caste, women, and all kinds of communal violence. Jan says Hindus have a different relationship with nature but I see them treat their whole country as a trash can with little regard for pollution, sanitation, or protecting the environment from poisons of all sorts.
It's just human nature to manipulate and abuse any ideology, atheistic or theistic. Mao and Pol Pot killed millions without any help from Religion
Peace
Karl
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 12, 2009 - 08:44am PT
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Author & finisher of our faith
Hebrews 12:2, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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Nov 12, 2009 - 11:31am PT
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I was watching a cool show on tv last night regarding dinosaurs. It got me thinking what "the believers" explanation of dinosaurs is.
Does the bible talk about dinosaurs? Do you believe that dinosaurs existed within the last 6,000 years?
Thoughts on carbon dating?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 12, 2009 - 11:32am PT
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Only as birds...
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Nov 12, 2009 - 02:17pm PT
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Dr. F, Norton,
Thank you I see the notes.
Do you know if Jesus was a civil servant?
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Nov 12, 2009 - 02:42pm PT
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That is funny Ed, and I think it works both ways. (Do you really think that probably, in the infinity of reality, that's the greatest irony?) It seems like however much the incomplete information we have is, we still have a need to fill in the missing parts with some (wacky?) stuff of our own. It's hard for us to hold on to the provisional nature of scientific belief - it just becomes belief. We make progress towards understanding reality, our knowledge goes from x to x + 1, but where is that in relationship to infinity? We're left with the same need to fill in the blanks for ourselves using insufficient information. I think that's OK for all of us to do as we need, it's just part of who we are.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 12, 2009 - 02:56pm PT
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as good as the flintsones had?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 12, 2009 - 03:32pm PT
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as long as we continue to practice science and it continues to return knowledge we will accept that it works without being bothered that we can prove it works...
...perhaps a practical viewpoint, or a utilitarian viewpoint.
That same sort of thing works for religion too, if you need to believe that you will be punished for being "bad" and religion provides the motivation to be "good" it's hard to argue against religion.
Problem with that is when religion or a religious institution has you act "bad" in the name of "good."
Now science is also full of these sorts of ethical dilemmas, science knowledge is neither good nor bad, but it can be applied in ways that have either outcome. What is the societal role of a scientist? It is especially tricky because the science could be done by anyone.. so if you choose not to do something it doesn't have any effect in whether or not the bad outcome is realized.
While I'm sure there exists deeper ironies in the universe, I cannot know what they are... so I'll stick with my candidate...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
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Nov 12, 2009 - 03:34pm PT
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Jan, where can I order one of those cool Darwin shirts? I tried to figure it out from the website, but no luck.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Nov 12, 2009 - 04:11pm PT
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dave goodwin- "does the Bible speak of dinosaurs"?.
Yes, actually it does. One of the places which I am recalling now is in the 'Book of Job' and refers to them as "Leviathan".
Describes them being huge and having long necks, pulling the branches/leaves down from tall trees for food. Man not ever being able to domesticate them etc. I don't recall the exact verse. If you would like I will look?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 12, 2009 - 05:33pm PT
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What about Saultaplasuchus? or Iquanadon? Globigerina pachyderma?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 12, 2009 - 05:56pm PT
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All you guys are hiding in the dugout.
I'm standing here in centerfield.
When does the game start?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2009 - 05:59pm PT
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No doubt the bible was referring to Giraffes in that section, long necks,
big bodies, eating plant life from high areas.
The Flintstones clearly showed Fred riding Dino, so there is no question
that humans and dinosaurs existed at the exact same time.
Pebbles and Bam Bam even played with Baby Puss, their Saber Toothed Tiger kitty.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Nov 12, 2009 - 06:04pm PT
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Jaybro!
What about them.
Like we were just discussing elsewhere, you had the advanced/later edit. coloring book(grade school). Back in my day they didn't even have the unicorn you were asking me about.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Nov 12, 2009 - 06:08pm PT
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Norton!
No.
It talks about their (boiler plate type covering on there back). It is definitely a unique creature.
Let me try and locate the verse.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Nov 12, 2009 - 06:13pm PT
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MH!
I was just about to agree with you when I noticed that they are only 40 yrs old!
Stick with a subject that you have some expertise in...like sheep!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Nov 12, 2009 - 06:21pm PT
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Norton!
Obviously the Flintstones came from a very progressive/liberated uber-sensitive clan. Way ahead of their time.
Just look at it this way. If the flood hadn't a happened. All the good routes would have been done eons ago.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2009 - 06:30pm PT
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Further proof for the foolish doubters is that the Creation Museum
has a display out in front with Dinosaurs and humans playing together.
What more possible proof do those silly evolutionists want?
They ask "why do humans have tail bones"
They ask "why do men have nipples"?
WHY? Because God put them there. There, that ought to shut them monkey people up!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 12, 2009 - 06:31pm PT
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So you think, just six thousand years ago, Fred and Barney were pulling down the rads?
Was the flood an attempt to hide the fact that Wilma and Betty were kicking their collective ass, climbing-wise?
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Nov 12, 2009 - 06:36pm PT
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Norton!
OK, So far I have located 6 different references to "Leviathan".
You will have look them up yourself, for I'm a three(advanced from 2) finger typist, I'd be hear all day.
1. Job 3:8.
2. Job 31:1.
3. Psalm 74:14
4. Psalm 104:26
5. Isaiah 27:1
6. Isaiah 27:1-a second x further down.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Nov 12, 2009 - 06:42pm PT
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Jaybro!
About Wilma and Betty.
I expect so.
And you heard it first here at 'SUPERTOPO'.
DNA wise, Lynn Hill, who do think she is related to...Wilma or Betty?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Nov 12, 2009 - 06:46pm PT
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It appears that the human race will not evolve any further, and that three million years in the future Wilma and Betty will still be a subject of much interest to the human male. I saw it on "Red Dwarf" so it must be true.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Nov 12, 2009 - 06:47pm PT
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Jaybro!
Just think about it...if it had continued in that direction, where would us 'dudes' be today?
Just take a look at Barney for instance. Not saying he isn't a cool guy and all but...
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4damages
climber
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Nov 12, 2009 - 07:11pm PT
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Ed,
there is a lot of physics mentioned here within. Regards science, I myself
find wave and sound along with Doppler principle to be some of the
easiest math applied to the physics. Do you think it's ok to show
some diagrams here with formulas showing the increase to the
observer, thus explaining and proving the principle of Doppler?
BES
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Nov 12, 2009 - 07:18pm PT
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Norton!
It is the Sacrum/sacroiliac joint.
There is no 'tailbone'.
I've had years of Anatomy, Physiology, Neuroanatomy, Neurophysiology,Kinesiology, Phys.Dys., Human Dev. etc.
Never heard it referred to as such, was pointed out to be a misnomer!
There is no opposition of thumb to digits in monkey's/apes.
Opposition is key to higher physical/mental development. function.
If you have some thing good such as a hand/foot/eyeball, why change it for another species?
My x fiance could show you some interesting reasons for men to have nipples Norton. God invented sex!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Nov 12, 2009 - 07:20pm PT
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weschrist!
Thanks!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 12, 2009 - 07:26pm PT
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To answer your question, Bam-bam, of course! Though they don't talk about it, since he was adopted.....
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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Nov 12, 2009 - 07:26pm PT
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777- how long ago do you believe that dinosaurs roamed the earth?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
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Nov 12, 2009 - 07:28pm PT
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Some still roam the earth - they're found in the Republican party.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2009 - 07:58pm PT
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WHY do men have nipples?
Did God just stick them there for something to play with 2000 years ago?
Edit: Gobee, time for a bible post, how about Revelations?
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Nov 12, 2009 - 07:58pm PT
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WBraun,
Do you know if Jesus was a civil servant?
BES
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 12, 2009 - 08:12pm PT
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People are just pissed that preachers keep telling them not to have a "yaba daba doo time"
Peace
Karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Nov 12, 2009 - 08:19pm PT
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The vertebrate eye is not the same as the cephalopod eye. Why did God design the eye twice? Was one of them a first draft, the other an improved version?
The same reason he didn't give plants a clitoris. Next....
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Nov 12, 2009 - 08:23pm PT
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Hilarious Rokjox!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
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Nov 12, 2009 - 08:28pm PT
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People are just pissed that preachers keep telling them not to have a "yaba daba doo time"
The actual wording, written by Hanna-Barbera:
Flintstones... Meet the Flintstones,
They're a modern stoneage family.
From the town of Bedrock,
They're a page right out of history.
Let's ride with the family down the street.
Through the courtesy of Fred's two feet.
When you're with the Flintstones,
have a yabba dabba doo time,
a dabba doo time,
we'll have a gay old time Possibly the creationists may not have such a gay time.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Nov 12, 2009 - 08:44pm PT
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del cross!
He didn't invent it twice, they are variations of each other.
Are there no similarities at all, on the contrary, there are many.
They function in two different arenas. Have different requirements, but are essentially the same.
Just as the example I gave Norton regarding the presents of opposition in the hand or lack thereof.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 12, 2009 - 08:47pm PT
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See .....
They're still in dugout.
This proves the atheists can not remain focused on anything.
Their minds wander all over the place.
When they come up to bat they strike out 99.9999% of the time.
Their fans are just as bad. They throw all kinds of objects onto the field.
The garbage in center field is piling up .........
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 12, 2009 - 08:50pm PT
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Psalm 68:3, "But the righteous shall be glad;
they shall exult before God;
they shall be jubilant with joy!"
ARE YOU HAVING A GOOD TIME?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
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Nov 12, 2009 - 08:51pm PT
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We're having a yabba dabba gay old time. And you?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 12, 2009 - 08:56pm PT
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It takes a severe case of self-induced brainwashing to deny evolution.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 12, 2009 - 08:59pm PT
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More like under the grandstand by Seemore Butts!
Edit; Fet are you a believer, there walking the right way?
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Nov 12, 2009 - 08:59pm PT
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dave goodwin! "how long ago did....roam the earth"
Up until the great flood.
Have you ever thought about the fact that there is a 'great flood story' in most of our great cultures. That when Noah and his sons and wives set out towards the four corners to repopulate the earth, this epic story was brought with them and preserved in some form all these years by such diverse peoples, that it is true?
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Nov 12, 2009 - 09:06pm PT
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The Fet!
You show homo erectus as having 'opposition between thumb and digit'. As I stated earlier, only modern day man has opposition!!!
Where is the proof of that?
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 12, 2009 - 09:12pm PT
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Have you ever thought about the fact that there is a 'great flood story' in most of our great cultures. That when Noah and his sons and wives set out towards the four corners to repopulate the earth, this epic story was brought with them and preserved in some form all these years by such diverse peoples, that it is true?
The Tigris Euphrates river system, the Nile, and other major rivers that were the cradles of early civilization were frequently subject to major floods.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2009 - 09:18pm PT
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Strike Three
How blind salamanders make nonsense of creationists' claims.
By Christopher Hitchens
It is extremely seldom that one has the opportunity to think a new thought about a familiar subject, let alone an original thought on a contested subject, so when I had a moment of eureka a few nights ago, my very first instinct was to distrust my very first instinct. To phrase it briefly, I was watching the astonishing TV series Planet Earth (which, by the way, contains photography of the natural world of a sort that redefines the art) and had come to the segment that deals with life underground. The subterranean caverns and rivers of our world are one of the last unexplored frontiers, and the sheer extent of the discoveries, in Mexico and Indonesia particularly, is quite enough to stagger the mind. Various creatures were found doing their thing far away from the light, and as they were caught by the camera, I noticed—in particular of the salamanders—that they had typical faces. In other words, they had mouths and muzzles and eyes arranged in the same way as most animals. Except that the eyes were denoted only by little concavities or indentations. Even as I was grasping the implications of this, the fine voice of Sir David Attenborough was telling me how many millions of years it had taken for these denizens of the underworld to lose the eyes they had once possessed.
If you follow the continuing argument between the advocates of Darwin's natural selection theory and the partisans of creationism or "intelligent design," you will instantly see what I am driving at. The creationists (to give them their proper name and to deny them their annoying annexation of the word intelligent) invariably speak of the eye in hushed tones. How, they demand to know, can such a sophisticated organ have gone through clumsy evolutionary stages in order to reach its current magnificence and versatility? The problem was best phrased by Darwin himself, in his essay "Organs of Extreme Perfection and Complication":
To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree.
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His defenders, such as Michael Shermer in his excellent book Why Darwin Matters, draw upon post-Darwinian scientific advances. They do not rely on what might be loosely called "blind chance":
Evolution also posits that modern organisms should show a variety of structures from simple to complex, reflecting an evolutionary history rather than an instantaneous creation. The human eye, for example, is the result of a long and complex pathway that goes back hundreds of millions of years. Initially a simple eyespot with a handful of light-sensitive cells that provided information to the organism about an important source of the light …
Hold it right there, says Ann Coulter in her ridiculous book Godless: The Church of Liberalism. "The interesting question is not: How did a primitive eye become a complex eye? The interesting question is: How did the 'light-sensitive cells' come to exist in the first place?"
The salamanders of Planet Earth appear to this layman to furnish a possibly devastating answer to that question. Humans are almost programmed to think in terms of progress and of gradual yet upward curves, even when confronted with evidence that the past includes as many great dyings out of species as it does examples of the burgeoning of them. Thus even Shermer subconsciously talks of a "pathway" that implicitly stretches ahead. But what of the creatures who turned around and headed back in the opposite direction, from complex to primitive in point of eyesight, and ended up losing even the eyes they did have?
Whoever benefits from this inquiry, it cannot possibly be Coulter or her patrons at the creationist Discovery Institute. The most they can do is to intone that "the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away." Whereas the likelihood that the post-ocular blindness of underground salamanders is another aspect of evolution by natural selection seems, when you think about it at all, so overwhelmingly probable as to constitute a near certainty. I wrote to professor Richard Dawkins to ask if I had stumbled on the outlines of a point, and he replied as follows:
Vestigial eyes, for example, are clear evidence that these cave salamanders must have had ancestors who were different from them—had eyes, in this case. That is evolution. Why on earth would God create a salamander with vestiges of eyes? If he wanted to create blind salamanders, why not just create blind salamanders? Why give them dummy eyes that don't work and that look as though they were inherited from sighted ancestors? Maybe your point is a little different from this, in which case I don't think I have seen it written down before.
I recommend for further reading the chapter on eyes and the many different ways in which they are formed that is contained in Dawkins' Climbing Mount Improbable; also "The Blind Cave Fish's Tale" in his Chaucerian collection The Ancestor's Tale. I am not myself able to add anything about the formation of light cells, eyespots, and lenses, but I do think that there is a dialectical usefulness to considering the conventional arguments in reverse, as it were. For example, to the old theistic question, "Why is there something rather than nothing?" we can now counterpose the findings of professor Lawrence Krauss and others, about the foreseeable heat death of the universe, the Hubble "red shift" that shows the universe's rate of explosive expansion actually increasing, and the not-so-far-off collision of our own galaxy with Andromeda, already loomingly visible in the night sky. So, the question can and must be rephrased: "Why will our brief 'something' so soon be replaced with nothing?" It's only once we shake our own innate belief in linear progression and consider the many recessions we have undergone and will undergo that we can grasp the gross stupidity of those who repose their faith in divine providence and godly design.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 12, 2009 - 09:28pm PT
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Hey Werner, I'm just tired of hitting balls over the center field wall...
...whatever are you talking about?
Your are guided by your experience and thought and the application of knowledge handed down for a few thousand years by people who express their experience and thought. The extent to which you have explored the universe is small, and self-centered, mostly centered in your brain and the brains of those wise people, and an interpretation of what various forms of thought mean, including revelation.
It might be true, it might not be true. What is there really?
I think it has less chance of being real than the idea that there exists a strictly materialistic explanation for all of it.
I know you reject that notion, but it actually has a lot of similarities with the ideas you are familiar with... will we explain what you're thinking? no, but I believe that an explanation of how you think it is within grasp... and it won't be elegant but a patchwork of evolutionary adaptation... and not at all how you perceive it to be...
My train of thought lately is not to dismiss the spiritual and mystical but rather to identify it as a consequence of human thought, not of the physical universe.
Oddly, people object to that, yet insist that their ideas "must be real" as if thoughts are not real. One can have thoughts about things that cannot be real... and they can act on those thoughts and give them real consequences. And that is totally consistent with a "material description" of the universe.
How could you possible argue against that?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Nov 12, 2009 - 09:40pm PT
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My train of thought lately is not to dismiss the spiritual and mystical but rather to identify it as a consequence of human thought, not of the physical universe.
Oddly, people object to that, yet insist that their ideas "must be real" as if thoughts are not real. One can have thoughts about things that cannot be real... and they can act on those thoughts and give them real consequences. And that is totally consistent with a "material description" of the universe.
How could you possible argue against that?
Didn't you just argue against it yourself? Maybe everything you 'understand' is false or distorted. What was that conclusion that great physicist came to about the existence of a higher intelligence?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 12, 2009 - 09:42pm PT
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We can bet on the game!
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 12, 2009 - 09:50pm PT
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The missing link is the soul.
Leave it out and all knowledge will ultimately lead to bewilderment.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 12, 2009 - 09:51pm PT
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Mighty Hiker-
I got the Darwin ad in an email. I think you might have to register with Science to be eligible? I registered in order to read the various articles that were posted on Ardipithecus and then later I got the email.
If that doesn't work, let me know. I can order it for you and send it to Vancouver with my nephew & niece's Christmas presents. They live in North Van on the way to Squamish.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Nov 12, 2009 - 09:54pm PT
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Who said these things;
1. I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts; the rest are details.
2. Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind.
3. My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.
4. The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge.
5. Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble.
6. The scientists’ religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection.
7. There is no logical way to the discovery of elemental laws. There is only the way of intuition, which is helped by a feeling for the order lying behind the appearance.
8. The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
9. The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious; It is the source of all true art and science.
10. We should take care not to make the intellect our god; it has, of course, powerful muscles, but no personality.
11. Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the Gods.
12. When the solution is simple, God is answering.
13. God does not play dice with the universe.
14. God is subtle but he is not malicious.
15. A human being is a part of the whole, called by us Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest-a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.
16. Nothing will benefit human health and increase the chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet.
17. The man who regards his own life and that of his fellow creatures as meaningless is not merely unfortunate but almost disqualified for life.
18. Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
19. Only a life lived for others is a life worth while.
20. The human mind is not capable of grasping the Universe. We are like a little child entering a huge library. The walls are covered to the ceilings with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written these books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. But the child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books—-a mysterious order which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects.
21. The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity.
22. What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of humility. This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism.
23. The finest emotion of which we are capable is the mystic emotion. Herein lies the germ of all art and all true science. Anyone to whom this feeling is alien, who is no longer capable of wonderment and lives in a state of fear is a dead man. To know that what is impenetrable for us really exists and manifests itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty, whose gross forms alone are intelligible to our poor faculties - this knowledge, this feeling ... that is the core of the true religious sentiment. In this sense, and in this sense alone, I rank myself among profoundly religious men.
24. The real problem is in the hearts and minds of men. It is easier to denature plutonium than to denature the evil spirit of man.
25. True religion is real living; living with all one’s soul, with all one’s goodness and righteousness.
26. Intelligence makes clear to us the interrelationship of means and ends. But mere thinking cannot give us a sense of the ultimate and fundamental ends. To make clear these fundamental ends and valuations and to set them fast in the emotional life of the individual, seems to me precisely the most important function which religion has to form in the social life of man.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 12, 2009 - 09:55pm PT
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Link does the National Anthem!
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 12, 2009 - 09:58pm PT
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Yes master F
I will do everything you say.
Yes master F ....
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 12, 2009 - 10:02pm PT
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The innings about to start where my crackerjacks!
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 12, 2009 - 10:03pm PT
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Never underestimate what you're really up against ........
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4damages
climber
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Nov 12, 2009 - 10:04pm PT
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Gobie,
I just got back and I did grin. I'm still wondering if Werner knows
something about Jesus I don't?
bluering,
2. somebody quoted as Einstein, though I saw it elsewhere quoted
differently and allegedly also by Einstein.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 12, 2009 - 10:07pm PT
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 12, 2009 - 10:11pm PT
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Didn't you just argue against it yourself? Maybe everything you 'understand' is false or distorted. What was that conclusion that great physicist came to about the existence of a higher intelligence?
no, I don't believe I did argue against myself... the key to the scientific method is to obtain empirical confirmation through experiment or observation. You hypothesize, then you test...
it is possible that everything I understand is distorted, but I am aware that that could happen, so I test to make sure that my experiments are providing consistent information. It is possible that they are self-consistent in a way that excludes an important factor or phenomena, however it what is excluded is measurable, then we will eventually get around to addressing it as it becomes an important part of our understanding.
If you posit that God, god, mystical experience, etc are not measurable, that is, have no physical effect on the universe, then you take them beyond anything I am doing. However, you've just excluded them altogether in having any affect on the universe we live in. If you try to sneak them in somehow, say quantum fluctuations, we can test for that, we can measure it... and I can say that it is not there.
On the other hand, if you admit that all those things are a product of human thought, perhaps even inherited from pre-human thought, genetically & epi-genetically, you can have the thought without having to worry if it is physical or not. As a thought it doesn't have to interact with the universe except through the action of a person.
I can think of a winged elephant flying, or of faster-than-light travel, or of starship battles in deep space.. but they may not be thoughts that could ever be realized. The thoughts themselves are real, the content of the thoughts may not be.
I do not believe everything I think (so my bumper sticker says)... but if I can formulate a testable hypothesis and then perform the test and find the hypothesis consistent with the outcome of the test, well, I've made progress... and if I show the hypothesis to be false I've really made progress. But those tests are tests of physical, measurable reality.
That's really all that I do, and really all that I need.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 12, 2009 - 10:12pm PT
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bluering-
# 13 and 23 are definitely from Einstein.
I'm guessing the others are from various Nobel prize winners? A number of them have written comments to that effect.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 12, 2009 - 10:13pm PT
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Jan, we know baseball!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Nov 12, 2009 - 10:17pm PT
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Dr. F, It was Albert Einstein who said those things.
Ed, I understand. I'm just saying that you are operating in your research in a confined, maybe designed, system. One that appears somewhat perfect, no?
Maybe it was designed to be that way. Maybe God is impossible to define because everything is His. As C.S. Lewis pondered, if God revealed himself there would be no reason for humankind to develop as it does, to question and ponder. It would stagnate.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 12, 2009 - 10:17pm PT
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What a game!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 12, 2009 - 10:17pm PT
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 12, 2009 - 10:18pm PT
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Ed
I've already explained many times the God is both material and spiritual.
On the absolute platform there is only spiritual since God is both material [external energy, material nature, his inferior energy] and spiritual [his superior energy].
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Nov 12, 2009 - 10:20pm PT
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Jan, you may be correct. I was looking for the quote from Al as he relected that after all he had studied and proven, he concluded there had to be some intelligent design behind it.
Dr. F, even when you get facts you deny....
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2009 - 10:20pm PT
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I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
(Albert Einstein, 1954)
I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms.
(Albert Einstein, Obituary in New York Times, 19 April 1955)
The idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I am unable to take seriously. (Albert Einstein, Letter to Hoffman and Dukas, 1946)
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Nov 12, 2009 - 10:21pm PT
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del cross- "an eye is an eye in the simplest sense"
That was the point I was attempting to make initially to Norton. And (if you have something good hand/eye.....why change..." I was simply illustrating the similarities between, lets say ape and man.
May be their is something we don't understand in regards to function. The octopus has always fascinated me. I have spent many hours watching the ones that got trapped in the tied pools were I use to surf as a youth.
Maybe it isn't necessarily inferior in that it is unique by not requiring more energy on a cellular level. I would have to know more about both.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 12, 2009 - 10:24pm PT
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you've stated it, but there is no material evidence of god... unless you'd like to define god as the entire universe which is an interesting concept... but not very useful.
I'll give you spiritual, but not in the way you'd want it I suspect.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2009 - 10:25pm PT
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"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
Albert Einstein in Albert Einstein: The Human Side,
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 12, 2009 - 10:25pm PT
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Ed-
I'm understanding your point much better with your last two posts. As always in interdisciplinary discussions, the main problem is finding some kind of common vocabulary. I think there are more thoughts in the universe than just those of human beings, but at least we can agree on human thoughts.
Practically speaking, the question is how to encourage as you say, bad people to do good and good people not to do bad in the name of faith or religion.
The new evolutionary spirituality that is emerging does see God as embedded within the universe by the way.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 12, 2009 - 10:25pm PT
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Strike your out!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 12, 2009 - 10:28pm PT
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YAH YAH YAH!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 12, 2009 - 10:29pm PT
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Bluering, you seriously misunderstand Einstein's views, which are philosophical (not scientific) on god... I believe had you the chance to have talked with him about it you would come away with a quite different opinion.
Misinterpreting his quotes are easy when you take them out of context with his entire body of work, as viewed from a philosophical view point.
Take Newton, who was probably actually religious in the sense you would understand, he had to push his god back to the role of a watchmaker, who created the universe much as a clock, wound it up and let it go... with no later intervention, a Deist idea where god does not intervene after creation...
But really, both Einstein and Newton believed in the authority of nature to resolve these issues.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2009 - 10:30pm PT
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"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
Albert Einstein in Albert Einstein: The Human Side,
I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms.
(Albert Einstein, Obituary in New York Times, 19 April 1955)
The idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I am unable to take seriously. (Albert Einstein, Letter to Hoffman and Dukas, 1946)
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 12, 2009 - 10:32pm PT
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Deist idea where god does not intervene after creation.
Yes, this is true to a degree. The President of United States generally leaves the handling of prisons to the wardens.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 12, 2009 - 10:32pm PT
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Gobee, I think we know where you stand on this matter, and you've pretty much said all the intelligent things you have to say on it....
..you can bomb the thread with pictures, or scripture, or whatever... what you are saying is believe in the christian god and be saved, deny that god and be damned.
We've got it, why don't you go off to some other thread now...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 12, 2009 - 10:34pm PT
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Werner, I believe that Deism states that God does not interact with the natural world in any way. It's not a delegation of authority...
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 12, 2009 - 10:35pm PT
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That's why I said; "to a degree"
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 12, 2009 - 10:37pm PT
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Jefferson was a Deist...
here is the bible he created from the New Testament
The Jefferson Bible
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 12, 2009 - 10:38pm PT
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Locker
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Nov 12, 2009 - 10:40pm PT
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Ed, I think that was the point that Einstein was making. God is not 'personal'. He created and kinda walked away and watched it unfold. He may 'tweak' it once in a while, but doesn't personally oversee 'all of us individually'.
This is where certain sects of Hinduism and Christianity reference guardian angels or saints.
I know you think it's outlandish and ignorant to have faith, but the world seems o be full of bizarre stuff.
Hey, what about 'dark matter'? Is it possible that the matter represents, or is, our soul?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 12, 2009 - 10:40pm PT
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A giant leap for Evolutionist,
A small step for God!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 12, 2009 - 10:41pm PT
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 12, 2009 - 10:47pm PT
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Dark matter is measurable, it has a physical presence in the universe, as does dark energy about which we know even less, but which is even more of the universe.
We are studying both... the problem with both is the fact that they interact with our sector of the universe very weakly... and we know they are there mostly because of their gravitational interactions. It is probably true that we would not exist without that gravitational attraction, it seemed to have nucleated the clumping of matter, which later ignited as stars, etc...
The space that you occupy is filled with dark energy, 70% of it or so, and 25% with dark matter, we only fill 5% (in round figures)... yet the effect of those forms of matter are so subtle you don't actually perceive them.
This new cosmology has displaced us even further from the "center of the universe" to being truly trace elements of the whole...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Nov 12, 2009 - 10:51pm PT
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That's fascinating sh#t, Ed...really. I kinda already knew that, about it's preponderance, but I like the way you put it.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Nov 12, 2009 - 10:55pm PT
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Thats not what any of my Physics books say
(bows head in preparation for an intellectual schooling on a Hartouni level)
Dr. F, unlike yourself, Ed is actually a pretty smart PhD...you're yanking the wrong chain...
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2009 - 10:56pm PT
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Let's be even CLEARER then about Einstein and "god"
The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.
Albert Einstein, in a letter responding to philosopher Eric Gutkind, who had sent him a copy of his book Choose Life: The Biblical Call to Revolt; quoted from James Randerson, "Childish Superstition: Einstein's Letter Makes View of Religion Relatively Clear: Scientist's Reply to Sell for up to £8,000, and Stoke Debate over His Beliefs" The Guardian, (13 May 2008)
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Nov 12, 2009 - 10:58pm PT
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Norton, so Einstein contradicted himself??? When did all of the quotes take place? Before or after each other, sooner or later in his career?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
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Nov 12, 2009 - 11:00pm PT
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The space that you occupy is filled with dark energy, 70% of it or so, and 25% with dark matter, we only fill 5%... Sometimes it seems like SuperTopo is 70% dark energy, 25% dark matter, and 5% worth reading.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 12, 2009 - 11:19pm PT
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Blitzo copping a peak?!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Nov 12, 2009 - 11:22pm PT
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Mighty!
Keep posting!
Your the only one making any sense here lately.
You just bumped that 5% up to 10%
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 12, 2009 - 11:37pm PT
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Which physics book is that?
A good one: Cosmology Steven Weinberg, 2008 ISBN 978-0-19-852682-7
check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy
so I was wrong, it's 74% dark energy, 22% dark matter and 4% stars, etc ("baryonic" matter)
This is what makes up the mass of the universe. These other forms of matter occupy our same space, they are present in the universe, yet they only interact through gravity... dark energy is actually a negative pressure, pushing space apart, ushering in an age of expansion dominated by the dark energy.
Dark matter is thought to be a form of particle, many candidates exist and it is being searched for, an important search for "Axion Like Dark Matter" is running at the lab I work at... it is perhaps instructive to explain how that experiment works.
The axion is a hypothesized particle whose existence is not ruled out by our current "standard model" of particle physics. In one incarnation (excuse that usage) it actually breaks CP symmetry...
...which is to say it is the reason that "baryonic" universe is mostly matter, and not a balance of matter and anti-matter, the axion interacts differently with matter and anti-matter in such a way that the anti-matter never made it out of the big bang early history.
If there are axions, then they could also explain the dark matter part of the universe... the axions interact very weakly with normal matter, but they do interact. One way to look at them is through an "inverse decay" scheme, that is, the axion can interact with photons, it has a very long decay "half-life" to two photons, for instance. This means that an axion could interact with a strong electromagnetic field.
So we set such a field up in about a meter cube, building a strong superconducting magnet. We fill the magnet with an Radio Frequency field and watch for the axion to knock out photons, indicating a change in the power density in the cavity. The researchers had to invent an extremely sensitive radio receiver to do this....
The frequency of the RF for which the axion scatters is related to the strength with which the axion couples to the field, and the mass of the axion. So you sweep through the frequencies looking for a signal from the "dark matter universe."
Where do the axions come from? Well they're here, all around us, in us, occupying this volume of space as we do, and in the axion detector too... it's just that they don't interact much at all. To see their gravitation effect you need to fill up galaxy sized volumes, which is where Fritz Zwicky first saw their effect (in 1933) but didn't know what they were...
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Nov 12, 2009 - 11:45pm PT
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Norton- "If something is in me that is called religious than it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it".
That is a profound and remarkable statement coming even from Albert because it is exactly what God states, I believe somewhere in Romans.
The perfect structural design incumbent in the universe, from the cellular to the stellar, the integral relationship of it all. Yes "the structure of the world".
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Nov 12, 2009 - 11:52pm PT
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t*r!
Whatever happened to 'dirtbag'?
Really none of my business, just wanted to let you know that I caught that post late last night and listened to "Total Eclipse of the Heart" about five times last night before I fell asleep.
Then you deleted the post.
Peace.
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MH2
climber
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Nov 13, 2009 - 12:10am PT
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From my seat here in the stands I see Ed keep moving the ball downfield. The rest of the action is difficult to make out.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 13, 2009 - 12:17am PT
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"The space that you occupy is filled with dark energy, 70% of it or so, and 25% with dark matter, we only fill 5% (in round figures)... yet the effect of those forms of matter are so subtle you don't actually perceive them."
Funny eh, that the vast majority of what science believes composes the universe is stuff (and semi-stuff) that we hardly know Jack about.
Knowing what you know is smart. Knowing what you don't know is wisdom
Peace
Karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Nov 13, 2009 - 12:22am PT
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Funny eh, that the vast majority of what science believes composes the universe is stuff (and semi-stuff) that we hardly know Jack about.
Knowing what you know is smart. Knowing what you don't know is wisdom
F*#k I hate agreeing with the wisdom of Baba....
At least Ed admits the unknown too. I respect that.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Nov 13, 2009 - 12:42am PT
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Ed!
Baba!
Norton!
Three Wise Men!
Bluey, I included Norton because I believe he admitted the unknown!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 13, 2009 - 12:57am PT
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Jesus; Beloved,
Ephesians 1:6, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Nov 13, 2009 - 01:53am PT
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Gobee!
Thanks, I definately consider myself happy and secure.
I am reading "Standing Strong" by John MacArthur. And try and watch his GTY(Grace To You) a few times a week.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
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Nov 13, 2009 - 01:54am PT
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So if we all agree that the dark matter and dark energy are "God", or at least what some humans perceive as "God", then that would tidy up a whole bunch of loose ends. This big thing out there that we don't really understand, that we can't really exchange information with, and which has unknown effects on us.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 13, 2009 - 01:56am PT
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Jesus Christ is the spiritual master of the whole world. Christianity has claimed him as their own.
All bonafide spiritual disciplines honor him as ever liberated eternal soul.
He can never be cut into pieces by any weapon, nor can be burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind.
He does not belong to the material world. He is above material action and reaction.
The foolish rascals try in every way dishonor this great soul. Even if they believe he's just an ordinary man they still must admit he was of a very high standard for a human being.
Only an envious snake who "sees" otherwise would act so negative and defile his image.
If one would deface their sacred climbing rocks and mountains they would scream bloody murder immediately and come to defense, yet they have no problem defacing and defiling his transcendental image.
Materialist take great pride in honoring great men and women, their children to defend any negative action against them.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
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Nov 13, 2009 - 02:02am PT
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Jesus does not belong to the material world. He is above material action and reaction. You see? Even Werner agrees: Jesus = dark energy/matter. Just like Ed was explaining.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 13, 2009 - 02:06am PT
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Do not ever try and put words into my mouth .....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 13, 2009 - 11:00am PT
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I just found a really interesting website that should be interesting to both science and religion factions since it contains arguments for and against a religious interpretation for all the brain research described = plus it has a cool interactive chart of the human brain.
It's based on a PBS special and a book that's just been published called, Fingerprints of God: The Search for the Science of Spirituality.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=110997741
It also shows how two diametrically opposing factions can have irreconcilable differences without insulting each other!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 13, 2009 - 11:13am PT
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hopefully I didn't leave the impression that we cannot know what dark energy and dark matter are, since they do interact materially we are busy doing experiments and making observations characterizing the stuff.... and looking for explanations as to how this stuff fits into our known explanations of the universe.
Dark matter may be axion-like, as I briefly explained above. Axions easily fit into our current theories of particle physics. They have not been observed in the laboratory, and there are constraints on their mass and coupling which might fit the dark matter parameters. Other candidates, Weakly Interacting Massive Particles (aka WIMPs) belong to a class of particles ruled by "supersymmetric" theories which we believe we're on the verge of seeing; the restarting LHC (beams plan to circulate Nov 21&22) is a hopeful frontier in which they may be found. If we understand the constraints of supersymmetry it will greatly aid in our search for dark matter WIMPs.
Problematic is the issue of Dark Energy. In some ways it was anticipated by Einstein in his 1915 paper on General Relativity. He included a term dubbed the "Cosmological Constant" which was required to keep the universe from gravitational collapse. Einstein was trying to preserve the idea that the universe was static and eternal. Other cosmologies were proposed which included "big bang" cosmologies... eventually Einstein remarked that the cosmological constant was his "biggest blunder." The cosmological constant acts with negative pressure.
In 1989 Steven Weinberg wrote a paper in Review of Modern Physics 61, 1-23 entitled "The cosmological constant problem" in which he attempted to calculate the constant from our current understanding of particle physics. His number was 56 orders of magnitude larger than expected. This certainly points the way to "more physics" between our current understanding and the explanation. The observed "dark energy" effect is still much smaller than what would be expected by our current theories.
The observations of far away Type I supernova (used as "standard candles") show that the expansion of the universe is increasing. Modern cosmologies have us transitioning from a matter dominated universe to a dark energy dominated universe, those far away SNs are earlier in time...
Resolving the "dark energy" problem is a major focus of high energy physics, cosmology and astrophysics. Many next generation land based observatories will be built in part to explore these issues, LSST (Large Synoptic Survey Telescope) the TMT (Thirty Meter Telescope), etc. There are also space based telescopes such as would ride on the JDEM (Joint Dark Energy Mission) specifically to observe and study dark energy in the universe.
Theorists are busy trying to understand just what the dark energy could be... the cosmological constant originates as the vacuum energy, but it is only one possibility, Weinberg surveyed the possibilities in the above mentioned paper.
so for the moment we have not found the need to invoke supernatural explanations for either dark energy or dark matter
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2009 - 11:22am PT
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TripL writes:
"Bluey, I included Norton because I believe he admitted the unknown!"
Trip, have no clue where you got that.
IF you are suggesting that because I personally "admit" that there
are many, many, things that humans don't "know" or never will, that I
am somehow open to the idea of a "god", or "guy in the sky", or ANY
concept of a "creator", well then you are flat WRONG.
I am not open to that at all.
GOOD MORNING!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
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Nov 13, 2009 - 12:33pm PT
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The Darwin "Viva la Evolucion" tee shirts seem to be available if you get a one year subscription to "Science", the AAAS magazine. Also from a variety of on-line suppliers, e.g. Cafe Press.
Jan posted a photo upthread of what they look like, although apparently more subdued colours than red are available. Any, it is the 200th anniversary of Charles' birthday.
Karl Marx originally wanted to dedicate Das Kapital to Charles Darwin, believing that his and Engels' "theories" were based in part on that of evolution. Darwin politely declined the "honour".
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 13, 2009 - 12:44pm PT
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What science has generally failed to anticipate, and still fails to anticipate to some degree, are the subtler and finer dimensions beyond what they have yet begun to comprehend.
Thus, Atoms were once thought to be the smallest, indivisible units in the cosmos.
Now science has awareness of, and experimental evidence of, finer and more etherial components of our reality. I'm just saying that the trend of continued discovery is likely to continue for a long, long time. What will we know when our knowledge has "evolved" 100,000 more years? How long has science really been at it's explorations? Less than 2000 years is not long.
There is really no way of knowing that underlying the most subtle energetic foundations of our reality isn't an even finer dimension, and a finer dimension beyond that. Somewhere at the essence may be Spirit.
I'd be even more critical of creationists who insist on a gross interpretation of scripture that makes God look like a crude baby in a mud puddle. An infinite intelligence need not create simplistically and it's plain that 3000 years ago, humanity didn't have the tools or need to grasp a sophisticated explanation of creation, even if God were to inspire one.
Peace
Karl
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Nov 13, 2009 - 12:54pm PT
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Werner
"Jesus Christ is the spiritual master of the whole world. Christianity has claimed him as their own."
Have you ever communicated in a spirtual sense from a distance with a live
entity, and had them later verify what's considered today as a connectionless
communication?
Btw,
Thank you. I asked due somethings you wrote in the past. Iv'e thought some
more about it, and I accept that he was considered a god.
Dr. F.
"my Physics books, they were written before 2008"
Hold on to them, some of the modern day designs are goofy and unacceptable
by the elders at NASA, DoD and the DoD components.
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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Nov 13, 2009 - 01:02pm PT
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777-
so if dinosaurs lived until the great flood, why didn't Noah give them a place on the ark? Was god not happy with his creation of the "leviathans" and therefore let them die off?
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 13, 2009 - 01:22pm PT
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Why are those creationists so wrong about everything?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 13, 2009 - 01:30pm PT
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Are all republicans 6,000 yrs old?
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Nov 13, 2009 - 01:35pm PT
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I don't think they account the ice age chronology for inclusion of mankind.
Not I.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 13, 2009 - 01:38pm PT
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I don't think they count....
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2009 - 01:39pm PT
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God bless the atheists. Lord knows we need it!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2009 - 01:49pm PT
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Why F?
because Theists "believe" totally, their beliefs are not subject to
the scrutiny of reason and logic.
It is a pure faith thing, no one will come away unchanged from their
original beliefs, one way or another, from this thread.
Therefore, we all know on both sides, that this is pointless dialog.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 13, 2009 - 02:13pm PT
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Reason and logic must be there in a bonafide system.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 13, 2009 - 02:34pm PT
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"What can you say about a society that says that the Divine is dead and
Elvis is ALIVE?"
Irv Kupcinet
You can say it's half correct.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 13, 2009 - 02:35pm PT
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I only ask you and other believers respect my "not believing".
If you have been following any of my dialog in this thread I have said the atheist is on the correct platform.
The atheist does not "see" god therefore at that stage they remain there.
This is the correct method. Not that the atheist creates some bogus bullsh'it and calls it a religion and misleads.
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Nov 13, 2009 - 03:55pm PT
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Have you studied Satanism?
My opinion without looking at the Proctor Gamble or other cases again
to see if they are considered a lawful religion, is that they are not. This
is due to their inner teachings of the 10 commandments which would
make them outlaws, however what about Revelation or even Daniel?
I noted to some atheist that the US Constitution provides for freedom
of religion and not freedom from? Unlike the Satanist and other religions
I have never read or heard of a atheist condone a rights violation or possible
illegal or unlawful act.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 13, 2009 - 04:03pm PT
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Didn't he kinda say that?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 13, 2009 - 04:12pm PT
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Yes
In general they (atheists) do not.
There are extremes to everything.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2009 - 04:19pm PT
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Dawkins wrote a book and made money from it.
I doubt his real agenda was to "convert" Deists to becoming atheists.
He is a realist, he knows that is not possible.
Reason and logic have no place in "faith"
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2009 - 04:29pm PT
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I assume they were grade schoolers who just learned how to read?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2009 - 05:00pm PT
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Del, I bought the book and have it here!
I apologize for thinking he had a thought of "converting" theists!
I would have thought this was impossible.
And, I don't think he converted many "deists".
His book lays out reason and logic, both of which are ineffective
in talking to Deists.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Nov 13, 2009 - 05:09pm PT
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"I noted to some atheist that the US Constitution provides for freedom
of religion and not freedom from?"
Maybe someone needs to actually read the constitution? It does not provide for freedom of religion. Go read it and write up a report on what it says and then be taken seriously.
Dave
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 13, 2009 - 05:09pm PT
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I've listened to some of the recent atheist books via audio. They have many points that are well taken and well reasoned. Problem is that many of their points are based on baseless assumptions about the nature of God and the relationship of God to Life and this world.
Stuff like "If there were a God and he really cared...."
"If God were all powerful, he could do (such and such seemingly desirable thing)
All they prove is that both they, and many religious persons, have simplistic views of the divine. All that proves nothing regarding whether there is God or not, just as disproving every idea that a 4 year old has about his parents wouldn't disprove his parents existence.
Peace
Karl
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Nov 13, 2009 - 05:10pm PT
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Dawkins was preaching to the choir with that book. Now that's a funny irony.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2009 - 05:12pm PT
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2009 - 05:13pm PT
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oh I would guess one heck of a lot of people who are NOT atheists (choir)
bought the book, probably many many more than the official 8% of the
general US population who say when polled they do not believe in a "god"
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 13, 2009 - 05:17pm PT
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Karl Baba -- "All they prove is that both they, and many religious persons, have simplistic views of the divine. All that proves nothing regarding whether there is God or not, just as disproving every idea that a 4 year old has about his parents wouldn't disprove his parents existence."
Best example yet ......
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 13, 2009 - 05:22pm PT
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But neither can a four-year-old prove the existence of an imaginary friend, which remains the most apropos comparison of all.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 13, 2009 - 05:26pm PT
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You just repeated what the 4 year old kid said.
That's why you're still 4 years old.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 13, 2009 - 05:28pm PT
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Easy Kshatriya, don't get your chakras in a bunch.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 13, 2009 - 05:36pm PT
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A ksatriya would never fight a 4 year old.
You're not a worthy opponent .....
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roadman
climber
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Nov 13, 2009 - 05:36pm PT
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Science/nature are my god. she's the best as far as I'm concerned.
some folks need the good book and a church. That's fine.
Just keep religion out of the classroom and we'll be OK. Can't you see that religion limits what science and technology can do? It limits what people can discover. why limit what saves lives and opens new possibilities.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Nov 13, 2009 - 05:48pm PT
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Sorry, I'm out of this thread. See y'all elsewhere.
Cheers!
GO
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 13, 2009 - 06:16pm PT
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I guess the only way to get out is through
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Nov 13, 2009 - 08:47pm PT
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 13, 2009 - 10:07pm PT
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When it comes to making a weak joke about being "out" of the thread at the very moment of posting to it...I'm comfortable speculating and OK being wrong even
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 13, 2009 - 10:38pm PT
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"Mine was also a bad joke, a fun-poke in wb's direction."
Now I'm guilty of not following the slander and controversy on this thread carefully enough.
I've evolved this behavior over time because for awhile I read every post and kept up better.
Peace
Karl
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MH2
climber
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Nov 13, 2009 - 10:50pm PT
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Well, evolution has gotta be better than devolution.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 13, 2009 - 10:52pm PT
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But it's all getting quite repetitive anyway. No one will budge an inch from what they've already decided works best for them. Oh well.
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MH2
climber
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Nov 13, 2009 - 10:58pm PT
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Oh well.
Not only that, but Captain Picard's team is clearly taking a beating, judging from his reaction.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 13, 2009 - 11:00pm PT
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Maybe so.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 13, 2009 - 11:08pm PT
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"They just don't buy the concept of "god", of ANY kind, that's all."
Christians aren't selling it's free, Jesus paid the price!
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MH2
climber
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Nov 13, 2009 - 11:14pm PT
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LOOKS more like...
EVILution...
"Devolution is an imperfect process."
from The Borrower, dir. John McNaughton, 1991
in which a (highly evolved) alien race maroon one of their crew, for a horrible crime, on planet Earth because that is the worst punishment they can come up with on the spur of the moment
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 13, 2009 - 11:38pm PT
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I don't want anyone to perish, but I'm going with Jesus!
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 13, 2009 - 11:59pm PT
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Master F
You need a better line.
You sound like a used car salesman selling old fuked up clunkers.
What's even worst is there's no engine in em either.
Ya couldn't sell yourself out of a dime store.
Ya need to move up to the big boys ......
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 14, 2009 - 12:03am PT
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I deserve to go to Hell, but Jesus is the ticket to Heaven!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 14, 2009 - 12:11am PT
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You need Jesus!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 14, 2009 - 12:45am PT
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Jesus; Bread of life,
John 6:35, Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
John 6:48-51, I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 14, 2009 - 12:59am PT
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maybe something in a syringe would be less morbid...
..I'll pass on the bread, too much gluten already, gotta cut down on the carbs....
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Nov 14, 2009 - 01:01am PT
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While I'm sure there exists deeper ironies in the universe, I cannot know what they are... so I'll stick with my candidate...
I guess that's pretty much my point Ed. We all seem to be sure of things even when we have no idea whether or not they exist.
When we have a solid foundation of information around the subject we can be pretty much right, as far as we can tell. But even when we don't have enough information to know, we still seem to need to have a belief about it.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 14, 2009 - 01:19am PT
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I believe there are deeper ironies
I know of one irony
seems the language was pretty clear... and this is not science, of course, but just opinion... hell, someone might not think it an irony at all, some might not even know what irony is...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 14, 2009 - 01:41am PT
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"...he just said Wow!
just Wow!..."
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 14, 2009 - 07:57am PT
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Of death;
Some people believe in nothing, that's all folks!
Others think you come back as a Donkey, etc. ?
God told us His plan, but still others don't like it His way?
They cry when they get Ice Cream!
Jesus offers us a ticket to Paradise,
I call that a bargain, the best I ever had!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 14, 2009 - 08:57am PT
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Nov 14, 2009 - 09:02am PT
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how come there's
in women in the
"holy trinity"?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 14, 2009 - 11:22am PT
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from Freakwater, Are You Ready?
Are you ready?
For your new home in the sky
Think your luck will finally turn around
The minute that you die
And all your prophets
Who profit only from your fears
Will they stand by and hold your hand
When the end is finally near
Are you ready?
To claim your great rewards
To climb those shining stairs
And shake hands with your lord
When you look down on those poor sinners such as I
Who missed our chance to be redeemed
Will your laughter drown our cry
Are you ready?
To leave this sinful world
Like to read your name
When that great scroll is unfurled
And if Jesus called you home
When that angel trumpets sound
Won't you just leave me alone
If I'm six feet underground
Are you ready?
For your new home in the sky
Think your luck will finally turn around
The minute that you die
And all your prophets
Who profit only from your fears
Will they stand by and hold your hand
When the end is finally near
Are your ready?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 14, 2009 - 11:39am PT
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The use of the word sky in the lyric is already defective.
The planet earth is already floating in the material sky along with the other planets.
Traveling from one material planet to another is not that difficult.
Modern science using mechanical means is worst than the cave man style.
They think they are advanced when in reality long ago people traveled across the universe by far superior ways.
Puffed up with their modern so called knowledge they wave their hands like little children and declare that such methods in the long past are just merely dreams and myths fermented within deluded minds.
Thus they perpetually remain in their stone man cave.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 14, 2009 - 12:02pm PT
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Spanish Pipe Dream -John Prine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9RBgfUvymM
"She was a level-headed dancer on the road to alcohol
And I was just a soldier on my way to Montreal
Well she pressed her self against me
About the time the juke box broke
Yeah, she gave me a peck on the back of the neck
And these are the words she spoke"
(Chorus)
"...Blow up your t.v.; throw away your paper;
Go to the country; build you a home.
Plant a little garden; eat a lot of peaches;
Try an find Jesus on your own"
"...Well, I was young and hungry and about to leave that place
When just as I was leavin’, well she looked me in the face
I said "you must know the answer."
"she said, "no but I’ll give it a try."
And to this very day we’ve been livin’ our way
And here is the reason why
(Chorus)
We blew up our t.v.. Threw away our paper;
Went to the country. Built us a home.
Had a lot of children. Fed ’em on peaches.
They all found Jesus on their own"
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 14, 2009 - 12:04pm PT
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Werner, why the ad hominem?
All you need to do is just do it, then prove that you did it... simple, really. And an explanation would probably be a good idea too.
But the fact is, you, nor anyone else, has... perhaps they say they have, hey Capt. Kirk went on the Voyages of the Starship Enterprise.... so is it written...
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 14, 2009 - 12:12pm PT
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All you need to do is just do it, then prove that you did it... simple, really.
Yes exactly.
But they never try, modern science rejects the processes and created their own inferior system.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 14, 2009 - 12:13pm PT
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so just do it Werner...
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 14, 2009 - 12:18pm PT
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You're missing the boat completely.
This isn't just about you or me.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 14, 2009 - 12:20pm PT
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...as you know, I am willing to listen.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 14, 2009 - 12:23pm PT
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Then one day here (in person) we will discuss ....
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 14, 2009 - 12:45pm PT
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it's hard to imagine anyone working harder in YV than Werner & Merry... they definitely kick ass!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Nov 14, 2009 - 03:09pm PT
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Jaybro- "Language is a virus from outer space"..."I would rather hear their name than see their face".
But we usualy remember their face after we hear their name! Which I suppose may drive some of us a little 'spacey'.
And man is the host of the virus from outer space....maybe Klimmer isn't so 'spacey'.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Nov 14, 2009 - 03:15pm PT
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Norton- "will you kill her also"?
Werner would be the one resuscitating her!!
Trip~
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 14, 2009 - 08:55pm PT
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The Bat Boy! Played At THUNDERDOME!
Two team enter one team leave!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 15, 2009 - 04:31am PT
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Dr.F!
I love hearing what you have to say as much as Werner or anyone!
I am tired, just happened to see your Q can only respond to one.
The fish had the sea, perhaps there was just the right mixture of fresh and salt water? Look at it this way-If there is realy a God(think out of the box for a second)and He created the whole universe, don't you think He could keep the fish alive in the sea?
And realy Dr.F. Everyone thinks very highly of you here. You have a brilliant mind, and fortitude and resilience and I'm sure you a super climber. You have integrity and are esteemable and have given countless hours towards debate and discussion. If a handful of us were in some predicament some were I'm sure we would all bond besides or differences.
Werner I am certain has respect for you or wouldn't waste his time in discussion. We are all friends here. OK?
I am going to bed. Goodnight. You two(Werner&Dr.F.)try and have a modicum of respect for each other. Sheeeezzz!!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 15, 2009 - 09:50am PT
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"If I go to the Valley, and need a rescue, I will say I'm 777, and I love all WB has to say, and thanks for the rescue"
Werner is Searching and Rescuing for you now!
Rescue; Deliver from danger or evil, liberate,
an act of rescuing...
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 15, 2009 - 09:52am PT
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 16, 2009 - 08:46am PT
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Jesus; Bridegroom,
Matthew 9:14-15, Then the disciples of John came to him, saying, “Why do we and the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast?” And Jesus said to them, “Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast.
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.1) By John MacArthur
http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 16, 2009 - 09:58am PT
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"The fish had the sea, perhaps there was just the right mixture of fresh and salt water? Look at it this way-If there is realy a God(think out of the box for a second)and He created the whole universe, don't you think He could keep the fish alive in the sea?"
If there really is a god, why does he need so much drama? And why does he manifest himself today so ordinarily (I know, amazing stuff happens all the time) as opposed to the days of burning bushes, Leviathans, 900 yr old dudes, talking snakes, worldwide floods (where did that water go?) Isn't there just the wee-ist chance that these tales, if not made up from whole cloth in the first place, Got just a little exagerated over time?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 16, 2009 - 12:08pm PT
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Back in those so-called miraculous days Jaybro, how many people in the ancient world actually heard about those Miracles? I'd say it still happens today and we either disbelieve it (and some of it may be bs too) or we don't hear. Read Autobiography of a Yogi for every bit the miracles (from the East and West) of the good book
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 16, 2009 - 12:59pm PT
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People are so dumb.
Miracles happen every instant.
The sun coming up always in perfect timing from the east.
The birth of a child.
A flower
Clouds etc, etc, etc.
Then mundane man tries analyze and dissect all these things into a his limited box called brain. His brain isn't big enough so he invents computer to store all this sh'it to over tax his poor brain.
No wonder they can't understand anything anymore in this day and age.
Buffer overflow, crash, lockup.
Then they can't sleep, they have headaches, schizophrenia, etc etc etc.
Then stupid shrink says take this pill which was made thru the above described idotic cycle and you'll be saved .....
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 16, 2009 - 04:40pm PT
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Jaybro-"where did all the water go"?
Before the flood, there was a mist surrounding the earths atmosphere. Never rained before that. People had no clue what 'rain' was. When it was over, I imagine it evaporated back into the atmosphere, creating the cycles that we have now. With a rainbow thrown in for a promise/reminder, that it would never happen that way again.
I can see how this may sound like a silly man made myth. But God has feelings, attributes if you will much like ours. And chooses very unique ways to communicate with us.
I believe he created Yosemite, and the great ranges of the world, with the seekers, the searchers and the climber in mind.
EDIT: If He does exist, and the 'Bible' is authored by Him through man. Is that such an impossible feat? To have made sure that man, His most treasured creation, would receive this 'letter' from Him?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 16, 2009 - 04:46pm PT
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I believe in, and appreciate, day to day miracles. Still think a suspiciously large amount of the weirdst stuff is conveniently buried in the past.
Now Trip, I truly respect you, but that mist thing is reaching...
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 16, 2009 - 04:46pm PT
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I can see how this may sound like a silly man made myth.
Ya think?
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 16, 2009 - 04:53pm PT
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Jaybro- "mist thing".
It's written about in Genesis!
Take note of edit above/fwiw.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 16, 2009 - 05:01pm PT
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Hey dirtbag!
You realy missed out last week. t*r was looking for you....left a message titled "dirtbag where are you"? I noticed it at just after 1AM. At first I thought I had hit the jackpot, there being no responses that late and me having dirtbag credentials and all...no such luck.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 16, 2009 - 05:03pm PT
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I always seem to arrive to the party after everyone's gone home.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 16, 2009 - 05:05pm PT
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again, where did the water go? I know our views vary, but genisis is not exactly proof, of, anything.
Edit got the edit, but again you have to take a lot of new, exceptional stuff as fact, to accept this. Great, if you already believe it already (kinda recursive) but not very convincing if, like many of us, you don't; no evidence.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 16, 2009 - 05:26pm PT
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Jaybro!
Lets just say, if there was a mist enveloping the earth's atmosphere, approaching thousands of feet, equally over the earth. And it condensed, formed massive clouds, rained and filled the earth. Evaporated forming the atmosphere as we know it today. Ed(?) went and visited the Creation science exhibit, maybe he asked them!! It is realy not my focus. They would be able to answer the question I suppose.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 16, 2009 - 05:39pm PT
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What if there was a giant sponge, full of water sitting in space, and a goblin hand squeezed it and made water over the land? Is there some way that is less logical?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Nov 16, 2009 - 05:43pm PT
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Is there some way that is less logical?
Damn right there is. The real reason is that the Flying Spaghetti Monster drained a moon-sized pot of pasta, and a some of that water happened to fall on the earth.
Think about it. Even if only half a moon-full of water fell on the earth, that would be a lot of water. It would probably take five or six weeks for that much water to fall. Somewhere around, oh, say forty days.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 16, 2009 - 05:48pm PT
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Did they salt the water before hydrating the spaghetti monster?
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 16, 2009 - 05:48pm PT
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dirtbag!
Well, as it turned out, she deleted the thread. Right as I was about to post. Fortunate for me since it was a realy pathetic response to a song that was a prerequisite listen, prior to posting/dialogue, or so I thought.
I would have ended up making a total fool of myself. For example..."that was the most sensitive caring song...the little tears continue to well-up....so powerful t*r. Totally disgusting, needless to say. One of those situations were you wake up the next morning and say..."WHAT WAS I THINKING"?
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Nov 16, 2009 - 05:49pm PT
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why are there no
wimmins in the trinity?
a patriarchal
circle jerk?
777-the spititual
son of a. crowley.
has to be true 'cause
it's in a book.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 16, 2009 - 05:51pm PT
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Jaybro- "Did the water hydrate the spaghetti monster"?
Dude...OF COURSE!!!!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 16, 2009 - 05:56pm PT
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d-know!
Because he is...'DA MAN'!!!
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Nov 16, 2009 - 05:57pm PT
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a. crowley?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 16, 2009 - 06:06pm PT
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I know, I know, Trip, what was I thinking?...
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Nov 16, 2009 - 06:16pm PT
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the notion of the redemption of the world
by the death and rebirth of a god was already
found in many religions such as the Adonis,
Osiris and other fertility cults.
christians came about as jews who couldn't
hack or wouldn't adhere to the orthodoxy
required by judaism. mixing of myths and political
expediency is why we have "christianity" today.
why else would the hebrew saul
have changed his name to the
roman paul?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
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Nov 16, 2009 - 06:19pm PT
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That water they recently found on the Moon is proof of the mist/sponge theory. There was so much water when g*d created the flood that some ended up there. Besides, Klimmer's little friends who live on the farside of the Moon told me it's true.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 16, 2009 - 06:26pm PT
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Breaking news that we've known all along:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/15/weekinreview/12wade.html?_r=1
The Evolution of the God Gene
"The ancestral human population of 50,000 years ago, to judge from living hunter-gatherers, would have lived in small, egalitarian groups without chiefs or headmen. Religion served them as an invisible government. It bound people together, committing them to put their community’s needs ahead of their own self-interest. For fear of divine punishment, people followed rules of self-restraint toward members of the community. Religion also emboldened them to give their lives in battle against outsiders. Groups fortified by religious belief would have prevailed over those that lacked it, and genes that prompted the mind toward ritual would eventually have become universal."
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 16, 2009 - 06:28pm PT
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d-know!
No, Aleister Crowley called himself...forget, you could ask Jimmy Page, he would know. Jimmy collects allot of A.Crowley memorabilia. And incorporated one of AC's examples of how to do a satanic ritual into the mix. That evening when he locked himself in his basement and swore he wouldn't come out until he wrote the greatest rock ballad of all time. Result: "Stairway to Heaven". One of my favorite song's(although I don't agree with what the lyrics imply).
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 16, 2009 - 06:33pm PT
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You do know that we know A. Crowley, right?
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 16, 2009 - 06:42pm PT
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Mighty Hiker!
I was talking to an Egyptologyist once, PhD. Smart lady. Head of the Cultural Anthropology Dept. where I was attending college. I asked her about Moses and she replied that there was one such man that has all notations to his name struck off structures and documents at that time period. Exactly what Pharaoh said he would do to Moses' name(wasn't allowed to be spoken).
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Nov 16, 2009 - 06:45pm PT
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funny stuff indeed.
welcome back rox.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 16, 2009 - 06:48pm PT
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Jaybro!
Who doesn't?
I read a fair amount of his 'works' long ago. Fascinating man. Also has Gaelic bloodlines, as do I.
He had a conversation with Satan once evidently.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 16, 2009 - 06:57pm PT
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well that's what he and Somerset Maughm say, I was thinking of a more recent incarnation....
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 16, 2009 - 07:36pm PT
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Jaybro- "thinking of a more recent incarnation".
Who would that be? The Fatrad?
Of course, also known as....'the evil one'!
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 16, 2009 - 07:47pm PT
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Stay on topic!!!!!!
and run to dugout ......
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 16, 2009 - 08:07pm PT
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Tripl7, there was once a poster here who called himself A.
Crowley. He pissed a lot of people off and got banned, I think; he was a big hater of George Bush & Co. didn't really seem to be much into his namesake in any overt fashion.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 16, 2009 - 08:10pm PT
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cintune!
Oh!
Thankyou ^^^!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 16, 2009 - 08:15pm PT
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There he goes now! with Lynne and Ed at the last face lift.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
Will know soon
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Nov 17, 2009 - 01:14am PT
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I am so lol....what an awe....ful pic. :DD
Ed looks like the shrink, lynne looks like a patient from the cuckoos's nest. What happened to ruin your karma gal ? What aweful fate has become yo ? I'm sure ST Ed will figure it out. (thorazine is pretty potent...bwahahaha)
Crowley looks like he just saw a UFO and sharing the joy.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
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Nov 17, 2009 - 01:18am PT
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OK then, here's a better one.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 17, 2009 - 01:19am PT
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LOL lynne
It doesn't look awful at all.
You're to self conscious.
Ed looks relaxed and mellow as he always is.
You're just listening.
And Crowley is watching the aliens moving in for the kill .....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 17, 2009 - 01:58am PT
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And this relates to evolution how?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 17, 2009 - 01:59am PT
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Cintune-
Thanks for the New York Times reference which I had somehow missed. I think we were talking about that very topic more than 2,000 posts ago weren't we?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 17, 2009 - 08:42am PT
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The Cross of Christ
is X's mark the spot of God's Love for us.
He IS are Treasure, are Rainbow,
are Pot of Gold.
The Riches of God
Made Manifest, Manifold!
GoBee
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 17, 2009 - 09:08am PT
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that does look awfully Somber for you, Lynne. Ed is doing talk therapy while Crowley the Jester is attempting Feldenlaugh.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 17, 2009 - 10:10am PT
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of course there is the Holy Ghost to fit in there somewhere... GoBee probably has a scanned page queued up for that too...
...a sticky wicket for christian theology that still has ramifications in the schism of the catholic church, and in the different theologies of protestant churches...
This has an interesting angle on the OP, which is about a Creationist view of human origins vs. an Evolutionary view. While some christians believe that the bible takes a creationist view, other christians interpret the bible as consistent with evolution.
Just like the differences of christian opinion on the trinity "Father, Son and Holy Ghost" there are a lot of different ways to interpret just what is being stated in the bible. It comes down to one's opinion on what is "truth."
So who gets to decide on the interpretation of the bible?
Seems that there was a time in human history, where these things were decided by war... which indicates the importance of the issue. As far as I know, we've never gone to war to determine the "interpretation" of a scientific theory. No one has ever been killed in the name of Newton or Einstein, or any such person.
It is because scientific progress is made by "a conversation with nature" as I.I. Rabi put it, so that the resolution of scientific controversies is by experiment and observation, which are accessible to anyone, and explanation through a mathematically rigorous description, a theory, of how things work.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 17, 2009 - 08:16pm PT
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My complaint about God
I unmistakably hope God gives this letter five minutes of his precious cappuccino-sipping, cancer-stick-puffing time. Let me get to the crux of the matter: If it weren't for sordid buggers, God would have no friends. Over time, his press releases have progressed from being merely salacious to being supersalacious, hypersalacious, and recently ultrasalacious. In fact, I'd say that now they're even megasalacious. God promises his apparatchiks that as soon as he's finished destroying our moral fiber, they'll all become rich beyond their wildest dreams. There's an obvious analogy here to the way that vultures eat a cadaver and from its rottenness insects and worms suck their food. The point is that people who collaborate with God and expect God to show them the same consideration deserve to be left out in the cold. Sadly, lack of space prevents me from elaborating further.
Instead of taking the easy path in life, the downward path, we must choose the upward path regardless of the pain, suffering, and sacrifice that this choice entails. Only then can we finally provide you with a holistic and thematic history of God's villainous bunco games. Yes, God will try to stop us by turning palookas loose against us good citizens, but he and his vicegerents are on a recruiting campaign, trying to convince everyone they meet to participate in forcing me to wind up in a straitjacket and locked in a padded cell. Don't join that Praetorian Guard; instead, remember the scriptures: "Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil." He seems to enjoy making unfounded statements and jumping to conclusions. Now that's a strong conclusion to draw just from the evidence I've presented in this letter so let me corroborate it by saying that I don't know what makes God think that human life is expendable. Maybe he's been sipping cuckoo juice. The fact of the matter is that because of God's obsession with mandarinism, on a television program last night I heard one of this country's top scientists conclude that, "God has no real regard for other people's rights, privacy, or sanity." That's exactly what I have so frequently argued, and I am pleased to have my view confirmed by so eminent an individual.
God can go on saying that he is omnipotent but the rest of us have serious problems to deal with that preclude our indulging in such insensate dreams just now. He lives for one reason and for one reason only: to preach a propaganda of hate. In case you don't know, he will probably respond to this letter just like he responds to all criticism. He will put me down as "disgusting" or "malodorous". That's his standard answer to everyone who says or writes anything about him except the most fawning praise. I realize that collectivism is a tremendous problem in our society, but does it constantly have to be thrown in our faces? To ask that question another way, where are the people who are willing to stand up and acknowledge that God's campaigns of malice and malignity are merely a fig leaf that hides his efforts to champion censorship in the name of free speech, intolerance in the name of tolerance, and oppression in the name of freedom? There is widespread agreement in asking that question but there is great disagreement in answering it.
If we don't do something soon, God's bloody-minded, oppressive projects will rise like a golem with a million hands on a million throats to choke the honor out of decent, hardworking people. As will be discussed in more detail later in this letter, God does not appeal to most people as being the most endearing or public-minded of citizens. Maybe his image would improve somewhat if he stopped trying to entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of the ambition, rivalship, interest, humor, or caprice of rambunctious desperados of one sort or another. His opposition to anti-intellectualism has been more rhetorical than substantive. That proves that he has a strategy. His strategy is to devise postmodernist scams to get money for nothing. Wherever you encounter that strategy, you are dealing with God.
God should learn to appreciate what he has instead of feeling so oppressed because he can't do everything he wants, every time he wants to. I have the following to say to the assertion that five-crystal orgone generators can eliminate mind-control energies that are being radiated from secret, underground, government facilities: Baloney! Even so, he once tried to convince a bunch of us that the Queen of England heads up the international drug cartel. Fortunately, calmer heads prevailed and a number of people informed the rest of the gang that God apparently believes that he can override nature. You and I know better than that. You and I know that I myself have always been an independent thinker. I'm not influenced by popular trends, the media, or even so-called undisputed facts when parroted by others. Maybe that streak of independence is what first enabled me to see that I have a problem with God's use of the phrase, "We all know that...". With this phrase, he doesn't need to prove his claim that he is known for his sound judgment, unerring foresight, and sagacious adaptation of means to ends; he merely accepts it as fact. To put it another way, it is easier to get a camel through the eye of a needle than it is to convince his shills to present another paradigm in opposition to his abysmal tractates. Why do I tell you this? Because these days, no one else has the guts to.
God is the secret player behind the present, short-sighted political scene. He must be brought out from behind the curtain before it's too late, before his worshippers make mountains out of molehills. If we build a world overflowing with compassion and tolerance then the sea of Chekism, on which God so heavily relies, will begin to dry up. Even if one is opposed to beastly Comstockism (as I myself am) then, surely, it seems that no one else is telling you that we need to stand up for our rights. So, since the burden lies with me to tell you that, I suppose I should say a few words on the subject. To begin with, God likes to posture as a guardian of virtue and manners. However, when it comes right down to it, what he is pushing is both chauvinistic and quixotic. How many of God's chums are content to sit around doing absolutely nothing to contribute to the world around them? I'd hazard to guess that the number is pretty high.
Implying that children should belong to the state is no different from implying that drug money is being used to pay for the construction of huge underground cities intended to house both humans and aliens who serve a secret, transnational shadow government. Both statements are ludicrous. God is not your average invidious stuffed shirt. He's the deluxe model. As such, he's poised to inflict untold misery, suffering, and distress in a lustrum or two. God's pleas are about as useful to society as a hundred deutsche marks were in 1923 Germany. Ergo, God's consistent lack of regard for others will deploy enormous resources in a war of attrition against helpless citizens within a short period of time. Disguised in this drollery is an important message: I am not a robot. I am a thinking, feeling, human being. As such, I get teary-eyed whenever I see God scorn and abjure reason. It makes me want to denounce those who claim that anyone who resists him deserves to be crushed, which is why I'm so eager to tell you that I wish I didn't have to be the one to break the news that I have come to know God's goombahs too well not to feel the profoundest disgust for their improvident fulminations. Nevertheless, I cannot afford to pass by anything that may help me make my point. So let me just state that while God manufactures crises over charlatanism, his den of thieves has been increasing society's cycle of hostility and violence.
By God's standards, if you have morals, believe that character counts, and actually raise your own children—let alone teach them to be morally fit—you're definitely a temperamental barbarism enthusiast. My standards—and I suspect yours as well—are quite different from his. For instance, I sincerely assert that God and his trucklers are a bunch of punks. As you know, punks are savages; savages are wiseacres; wiseacres are wantwits; and wantwits all want to prime the pump of commercialism. The point is that when God says that he can walk on water, that's just a load of spucatum tauri.
Many people respond to God's brutal mottos in much the same way that they respond to television dramas. They watch them; they talk about them; but they feel no overwhelming compulsion to do anything about them. That's why I insist we make technical preparations for the achievement of freedom and human independence. God promises that if we give him and his confreres additional powers, he'll guard us from loquacious, sappy New Age vagabonds. My question, however is, Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?—Who will guard the guards?
God is totally mistaken if he believes that turning the trickle of vigilantism into a tidal wave is essential for the safety and welfare of the public. We find among narrow and uneducated minds the belief that some people deserve to feel safe while others do not. This belief is due to a basic confusion that can be cleared up simply by stating that God's traducements are not an abstract problem. They have very concrete, immediate, and unpleasant consequences. For instance, I have never been in favor of being gratuitously shameless. I have also never been in favor of sticking my head in the sand or of refusing to bring a fresh perspective and new ideas to the current debate. Even with no further evidence than what I've previously presented I would profess—and no person on Earth can alter my opinion—that God is right about one thing, namely that fear is what motivates us. Fear of what it means when atrabilious, ruthless bohemians trade facts for fantasy, truth for myths, academics for collective socialization, and individual thinking for group manipulation. Fear of what it says about our society when we teach our children that God's camp is looking out for our best interests. And fear of predaceous, ugly energumens like God who palliate and excuse the atrocities of his assistants. To recap the main points made in this letter: 1) a "respected" member of God's nepotism movement recently said (to closely paraphrase), "Black is white and night is day", 2) God has fundamentally miscalculated how out-of-step he is with the average person's views, and 3) we must stand united as free, sovereign individuals and punish God for his licentious maneuvers.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 17, 2009 - 08:28pm PT
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At the risk of sounding like an obtrusive long-haired hippie, I will attempt to humbly set forth a brief précis of Dirtbag's most mephitic suggestions in hopes of convincing you, the reader, to help straighten out Dirtbag's thinking. I want to share this with you because I shall not argue that Dirtbag's newsgroup postings are an authentic map of his plan to create a beachhead for organized wowserism. Read them and see for yourself. Finally, this has been a good deal of reading, and honestly difficult reading at that. Still, I hope you walk away from it with the new knowledge that anyone who examines the historical development of the last hundred years from the standpoint of this letter will at once understand that Dirtbag is a big fan of interrogation and torture.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 17, 2009 - 08:30pm PT
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isn't it depressing that computer programs can write better than humans, at least more witty and grammatical... and develop a train of thought, at least apparently, where most people are reduced to speaking in acronymic cypher...
...I don't very much like this sort of post simply because it serves only one purpose, to continue trolling on the thread. It really doesn't add anything to the thread, except a reaffirmation that the poster is unhappy for reasons they can't articulate in a complete sentence. But hey, what is technology for if not to fill in between the grunts...
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 17, 2009 - 08:35pm PT
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Well, true, but it is kind of funny, and when it comes down to it, everything has already been said more than once on this topic anyway.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 17, 2009 - 08:37pm PT
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Ed-"We have never gone to war to determine the interpretation of scientific theory...".
Better watch out your going to start a war here!!
Seriously though, that is man made religion that was the cause. Not Jesus.
And I agree.
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426
climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Nov 17, 2009 - 08:38pm PT
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..attrition by ascription
U winz!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 17, 2009 - 08:46pm PT
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dirtbag!
I just noticed we have something in common!
We are both disgusting and malodorous...or it has been suggested that we are such. Along with my longstanding dirtbag status, there is the remote possibility we are related
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 17, 2009 - 10:02pm PT
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Quote Here ...I don't very much like this sort of post simply because it serves only one purpose, to continue trolling on the thread. It really doesn't add anything to the thread, except a reaffirmation that the poster is unhappy for reasons they can't articulate in a complete sentence. But hey, what is technology for if not to fill in between the grunts..
Nah, like TripL7 I'm just malodorous.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 17, 2009 - 10:52pm PT
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dirtbag-"Gods chums sit around doing nothing...".
That may certainly have some truth, but there are many examples to the contrary for instance 'Operation Blessing'. They were first on the seen, and are still in the Gulf Coast states hardest hit by Katrina. This was publicised nationally. During and after the crisis truck load after truckload of goods and services. Rebuilt homes, provided shelter medical aid all kinds of relief. I financially support them.
They go all over the world digging wells in India, Africa, Indonesia and elsewhere. Provide medical services for such wide spread Third World needs as cleft palate, cataracts etc. All volunteer health professionals and all Cristian. These are thousands of M.D., nurses, and health care workers like myself who pay there own way. And there are no strings attached. We go to Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu etc. third world countries, improving and saving lives. Just one example.
EDIT:just another example of the fulminations of an improvident and malodorous bible thumping dirtbag.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 18, 2009 - 12:50am PT
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Jesus; Bright & morning star
Revelation 22:16, “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.1) By John MacArthur
http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
To us who believe these are God's truths, but to unbelievers the Bible are just fairytales.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 18, 2009 - 02:15am PT
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but what to believe in?
who interprets the bible? where is the truth?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 18, 2009 - 02:18am PT
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There are a lot of us who do not think that the Bible is only fairy tales nor do we think it is the literal word of God. We each understand it according to our individual personalities, cultures and historical times.
At a more mundane level it is also taught at universities as anthropology, history and archaeology, philosophy and literature.
There is no one interpretation even within a culture and historical time. It is not an all or nothing proposition. It is not a useless book as some maintain nor the answer to all life's problems as other assume.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 18, 2009 - 08:59am PT
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"To give you an idea of how the Bible can be studied in an interesting academic way, here's a kinship analysis of the original Hebrew patriarchs that is used in many anthropology classes."
Unless you are having a Love Feast with God and Jesus is your Lord and Savior your are missing what God is all about.
Numbers 12:3, Now the man Moses was very meek, more than all people who were on the face of the earth.
Numbers 12: 5-9, And the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud and stood at the entrance of the tent and called Aaron and Miriam, and they both came forward. And he said, “Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the Lord make myself known to him in a vision; I speak with him in a dream. Not so with my servant Moses. He is faithful in all my house. With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?” And the anger of the Lord was kindled against them, and he departed.
Of original Hebrew patriarchs, Moses was a bad dude!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 18, 2009 - 09:08am PT
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"There are a lot of us who do not think that the Bible is only fairy tales nor do we think it is the literal word of God."
There is a lot of truth in it, It just isn't literal truth.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 18, 2009 - 10:19am PT
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probably difficult to defend the bible as a primary source in any academic work...
the bible is the object of academic activity... but using it to convey "factual" information cannot be acceptable, without considering the authors and the origin of the stories. The bible was not written with the intention of providing a factual history.
And no discussion on the many disagreements regarding the meanings of the bible... especially the theological issues (i.e. the trinitarian doctrine)...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 18, 2009 - 11:15am PT
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History is always written from a particular point of view and the Bible certainly is. Sometimes it can be independently corroborated and sometimes not. Figuring out which is which is the interesting part. Much of the Bible was originally oral history as well and there are special methodological problems involved in analyzing oral histories. As for the issue of primary and secondary sources, of course a good historian will also survey surrounding cultures to see if their beliefs are similar and which are the oldest.
From an anthropological point of view, the emphasis is not so much on whether any of it is true, but what and why the ancient Hebrews thought it was true and how their customs resemble other nomadic pastoralists around the world. One can write an ethnography of them the same as any other tribe.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 18, 2009 - 03:00pm PT
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Ed et al.,
The Bible is the inspired word of GOD. To paraphrase the NT is says men spoke and wrote as they were inspired by God, the Holy Ghost. (I'll find the verse and post it later.)
They are words beyond our abilty to write. Yes GOD does use man to write his word, they are the scribes, but he is the author. He can do this with anyone he chooses and who is receptive to his spirit. The words are God's words and can only be fully understood by those who have that personal close relationship to God and his spirit.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, it is beyond statistical probability to happen by chance, it is impossible. The Bible Code and other mathematical techniques do prove the Bible is not the work of men. The Bible is authored by GOD. So many ways this can be verified: prophecy fullfillment, Bible Code, mathematical patterns throughout the Bible that are beyond statistical chance, biblical-archeology discoveries, the absolute positive change in people's lives when they come to be forgiven by God and begin a relationship with him (real testimony), science does indeed bear witness to Bible truths, and where it doesn't seem to, then our understanding is limited in some way at this time.
Like I have said before, for ultimate science truth, science needs to grow closer to God, and Christians or believers need to grow closer to science.
You can not sweep this under a rug and make it go away . . .
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code:
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 1 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blbLke9kLIk&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=0&playnext=1
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 2 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwMM3-UfuQo&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=1
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 3 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHuEG4nDR0Q&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=2
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 4 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIadU4uz7m8&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=3
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 5 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C53YCyAqGU&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=4
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 6 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coHmbONyiHU&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=5
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 7 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIWRjt23tI4&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=6
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 8 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km8y10KG-TQ&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=7
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 9 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RLPhL34RYs&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=8
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 18, 2009 - 03:09pm PT
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I'm inspired by SCIENCE, but I don't expect you to take my word as literal truth... I'd encourage you to go and find out on your own, and write your own science... improve on mine, find new things... overturn old ones...
I'm not interested in the "ultimate truth," I'm interested in understanding...
nature is the only authority
The Bible Code does not exist... it does not stand up to the statistical tests that it has been subjected to. You can claim otherwise, but you would be wrong. And you don't have to take my work for it, you can actually determine that yourself. Choosing not to confront it with a strong test does not make it true...
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 18, 2009 - 04:16pm PT
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Ed,
Even code developers/statisticians at NSA have looked into to it and have confirmed it. See the video above.
The video also demonstrates how the critiques are not being honest. Probability statistics do not lie, but scientists can.
You can show scientists who try to prove it is meaningless, and I can show many who can show it is very statistically meaningful.
You can not denie prophecy. You can not denie Biblical Archeology discoveries that do indeed prove many Biblical events correct. When someone says something thousands of years ago will happen and it happens exactly that way in the future, you can not explain it. We can. GOD.
Science thrills me also. But I also know it is a very special tool. It works. But it can't give me salvation. Even Newton knew that.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 19, 2009 - 12:32am PT
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See Dimly
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 19, 2009 - 01:13am PT
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Klimmer-
For an outside observer who is not committed to any particular holy book, there is no objective way of determining if one is inspired by God and the others are not.
Even if an outside observer agrees that the Bible was inspired by God (as filtered through flawed human beings who reflected their own personalities, cultures, and historical times), then so must an outside observer agree that the Koran, the Bhagavad Gita, the Dhammapada, the Granth Sahib, the Buddhist sutras and all other scriptures of the world were inspired by God and filtered through humans who also reflected their personalities, cultures, and historical times. Either they all were inspired, or they all were not.
Someone telling us over and over that their holy book was inspired by God and the others were not, is not convincing.The idea that you believe as you do because you just happened to have the good luck to be born into the right group with the right book, doesn't convince anyone of anything except that you are true to your upbringing and culture.
If you had read the other holy books of the world with an open mind and settled on the New Testament as your holy book, then most of us here would have no problems with that. However, the minute you tell others that because you have decided that it is the best book for you, everyone else must make the same decision for themselves, you're reflecting your own human ideas, not God's. In the process, you alienate people and turn them off to the beauties of the very book and set of ideals that you are trying to sell.
In our modern age, people are convinced by whether something resonates with them personally, not by someone else telling us that we all must think alike.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 19, 2009 - 02:17am PT
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"The Bible is the inspired word of GOD."
Um, Klimmer, you got any sort of verifiable source for that? Seems just a tiny bit presumptious, don't you think?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 19, 2009 - 01:22pm PT
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Seek and you shall find. Ask and it shall be given unto you, as the Good Book says . . .
I've already mentioned many types of miraculous evidence that only GOD can achieve, but then the Good Book also says this about itself . . .
I'll let this authored piece argue the Good Book's inspiration:
http://www.yutopian.com/religion/theology/Inspiration.html
Bible is the Inspired Word of God
Biblical inspiration is defined as the work of the Holy Spirit by which, without setting aside their personalities and literary or human faculties, God so guided the authors of Scripture as to enable them to write exactly the words which convey His truth to men, and in doing so preserved their judgements from error in the original manuscripts. The Word of God as given to us in the Bible is a product of two free agents, human and divine. Through (fallible) human authors, God manifested the infallible and errorless writings, which convey His messages. A natural question is, why God chooses to have humans write the Bible; couldn't He write the Bible Himself much like what He did in inscribing the Ten Commandments on the tablets? Won't this be an easier way in preserving the accuracy of the Bible, instead of through the hands of fallible men? Although God is sovereign and can do anything by Himself, He chooses to have humans interact in His plan. This is one of the biggest differences between Christianity and other religions; with God reaching down to man, instead of man reaching up to Him. We have seen many examples in the Bible, which God chooses to have human interaction. The creation of the Written Word (Bible), the Living Word (Jesus), and Promised Word (Salvation) all share this characteristic.
After discussing why God chooses to have human involvement in the writing of the Bible, lets look at how inspiration is done. First of all, we learn from 2 Timothy 3:16 that the entire Bible is inspired by God, not just partially. It is an important concept, for if we choose and pick some parts of the Bible as inspired and others are not, then the entire Bible soon falls apart. Who has the authority to decide the extent of inspiration, but God Himself. And God made it very clear that all Scripture, is inspired by Him. Therefore those who preach partial and degrees of inspiration are playing God. Since God is truth (John 3:33, Romans 3:4), whats breathed out by God, must also be true (John 17:17) and infallible. The process of inspiration is described in 2Peter 1:21, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. All Scripture was regarded by the Jews as prophecies, that it did not originate from man, but came from God. The Holy Spirit inspired the prophets or apostles to mouth the truths, which was then recorded and superintended (or moved) by God to ensure that the messages were not diverted, misdirected or erred by the fallible author. The word moved in 2 Peter 1:21 is the same word used in Acts 27:15-17, meaning that the boat was 'moved' or 'borne' by the wind. While the crews (human authors) on the boat have full freedom of steering the boat, the motion of the boat is entirely borne by the wind (God) in a storm. The use of this word indicates that the Holy Spirit completely superintended the human author in the process of recording His words. It is important to point out that inspiration was not a mechanical dictation of the Scripture to the authors. The authors are free to express their emotions and style in the writing. It is also important to mention that only the Autographs (the original written documents by the biblical authors) are inspired.
Let's look at what the Bible says about itself. Throughout the Old Testament it was mentioned repeated that the Scripture is the word of God (Jer 1:9, 31:2; 2 Sam 23:2; 1 Kings 20:13). God also instructed His spokesmen to write the message down (Ex 17:14; Jer 30:2). Another strong proof for the inspiration of the Bible is the fulfillment of the prophecies, particularly those relating to Jesus (His birth- Isaiah 7:14, Micah 5:2; His crucifixion- Psalm 22:16-17, Isaiah 53:12; and His resurrection- Psalm 16:10, 22:22). Because of the fulfillment of these prophecies, Jesus proved that He is the Son of God, giving Him the infallible authority to claim the inspiration and inerrancy of the Bible. Jesus taught that the entire Bible, both the Old Testament (Matt 21:13, 26:31, 5:18 and Luke 4:27) and the New Testaments (John 14:24, 16:12-13) is the infallible and inerrant word of God. Since the gospels give an accurate and reliable record of what He taught, it has been established that the entire Bible is really the errorless and authoritative word of God. Not only can we believe everything in it, but it demands our obedience.
The apostles also attested the inspiration of the Scripture, in both the Old Testament (Rom 3:2) and the New Testament (2 Peter 3:15,16). Moreover, they proclaimed their own writings as Gods words (1 Cor. 14:37), and their messages as Gods words (Gal 1:12; 1 Thess. 2:13).
Conclusions:
The entire Scripture is the inspired word of God because the Bible says so (2 Timothy 3:16). This is probably the strongest argument from a presuppositional point of view. However, most believers would rebuke that the authority of the Bible is what one tries to prove in the first place, so how can one use quotes from the Bible to sustain such a claim. In this case, the fulfillment of prophecies about Jesus, his birth, death and resurrection, proves the accuracy of the Bible and that Jesus is the Son of God, giving Him the authority to claim the inspiration and inerracy of the Bible (Matthew 21:13, Luke 4:27, John 14:24, 16:12,13). Both Jesus and the apostles proclaimed that the Bible is the inspired word of God. It is important to keep in mind that the Scripture is of Divine origin, written through man. Although the authors were free to use their own style and expression in the writing, God superintended so that the final product is inerrant. The entire Scripture is inspired by God, not just partially or in degree. Although most of the Scripture were verbally conveyed to Gods people through the prophets and apostles, only the Autographs are inspired. And because the Bible is inspired, it alone has the final authority.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 19, 2009 - 01:46pm PT
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And because the Bible is inspired, it alone has the final authority.
Then why they misinterpret and take "Thou shalt not kill" and still maintain huge industrialized mechanized animal slaughterhouses?
They spin the words into "Oh it means murder"
If it means murder than it would have said: "Thou shalt not murder"
Then they say: But God gave us dominion over animals and animals have no soul".
I cry bullsh'it.
Look at your dog and tell me it has no soul ......
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 19, 2009 - 01:59pm PT
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So the Bible is the inspired word of God because it says it is?
Wow, that's convincing.
I'm an ultra beef cake chick magnet. Why? Because I say I am.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 19, 2009 - 02:07pm PT
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So what you're saying Klimmer is that No, you can't back it up. Thanks!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 19, 2009 - 03:19pm PT
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Peter Reports to the Church
Acts 11:1-18, Now the apostles and the brothers who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcision party criticized him, saying, “You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them.” But Peter began and explained it to them in order: “I was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I saw a vision, something like a great sheet descending, being let down from heaven by its four corners, and it came down to me. Looking at it closely, I observed animals and beasts of prey and reptiles and birds of the air. And I heard a voice saying to me, ‘Rise, Peter; kill and eat.’ But I said, ‘By no means, Lord; for nothing common or unclean has ever entered my mouth.’ But the voice answered a second time from heaven, ‘What God has made clean, do not call common.’ This happened three times, and all was drawn up again into heaven. And behold, at that very moment three men arrived at the house in which we were, sent to me from Caesarea. And the Spirit told me to go with them, making no distinction. These six brothers also accompanied me, and we entered the man's house. And he told us how he had seen the angel stand in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa and bring Simon who is called Peter; he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’ As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?” When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 19, 2009 - 03:30pm PT
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Ah, for the goodle days, when any schizophrenic could find a starry-eyed audience to buy into his visionary noodlings...
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 19, 2009 - 08:13pm PT
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Jan- "Either they are all inspired or they all were not."
The Bible from begging to end is about the need for a Savior. The Old Testament prophesies in detail who He will be through the family of David down to details that only one person fulfilled(hundreds of prophecies).
Jesus claimed to be that Messiah in the New Testament. He stated, as I am sure you are aware, that "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, there is no other way to the Father but through Me". If this is a true statement, could not this omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent God(stressing the all powerful here)get someone of His creation to pen a letter to all His creation, and maintain its integrity through out time? It is a love letter by the way "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whomever shall believe in Him shall have eternal life." John 3:16.
The only answer could be yes, if He is truly all powerful then nothing is impossible with Him, and it could be the literal word of God.
Therefore, it is up to you to ask Him IF this is all true(with an open mind)and you Jesus are truly God, I want to know you and worship you as God.
It is your decision. Jesus said it not me or anyone else here. We are only deliverers of the message.
Sincerely, Trip~
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2009 - 08:31pm PT
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WHY the desire or need to "worship" a god, any god? I don't get it.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 19, 2009 - 08:39pm PT
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After 108 more lifetimes you just might get it?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 19, 2009 - 08:44pm PT
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So just keep kissing your own ass ....
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Bad Climber
climber
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Nov 19, 2009 - 08:50pm PT
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I call it the frightened monkey syndrome. We have consciousness of death, so we invent a God to make it all better. Works for some. I choose the mystery, that we cannot know and that the not knowing is good and beautiful and powerful. I don't need to have some guru, priest, minister, televangelist, whatever tell me he has all the answers--or that his silly self-contradictory text has all the "answers," which is patently wash of the hog.
Rejoice in the mystery, for that is all we have!
I'll tell you what I CAN worship: Check out the babes in Largo's hottest female athletes thread. Now THAT'S a goddess or two I can get behind.
ARRRRRRRgggggg. :)
BAd
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2009 - 08:51pm PT
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and you just keeping the ass of your imaginary little friend in the sky
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 19, 2009 - 09:00pm PT
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Norton- "Why worship anything".
I debated whether or not to put 'follow' instead of 'worship' you. Most commonly stated as such.
Worship is derived fro the 'Old English' worth following, etymologically speaking.
One and the same. We are all following something, as you ascribe your beliefs to agnostic/atheistic or whatever, that is what you are following. Some just ascribe to following themselves...which I often find myself falling back on. Some want to be followed/worshipped for example Jim Jones/David Koresh whom both said they were the messiah. But I have trusted Christ for my eternal destiny, that is what He has promised us...eternal life.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 19, 2009 - 09:02pm PT
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Thank God, Gobee. I really love bacon!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 19, 2009 - 09:07pm PT
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Werner is worth following up any route in the Valley!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2009 - 09:07pm PT
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Trip, the difference is that I have no emotion in my non belief.
And the believers "worship" with emotion, often fervently.
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Nov 19, 2009 - 09:12pm PT
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The body I have read is a temple of god. Or a similar scripture.
I can't prove quantum entanglement yet so I still have
some beliefs, though it seems to make more sense
for some matters.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 19, 2009 - 09:29pm PT
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Dr.-F. "so in the logic of 777 worshipping God is like worshipping..."
Hardly worth the effort to attempt to straighten you out on that one Doc!
That would be like coming up with some twisted logic in the order of "So Dr.-F claims that loving a pig is like loving Dr.-F!
You never said that and I never even implied such logic in regards to the above twisted interpretation of my explanation of the word worship/follow.
There have been many false Messiahs and prophets. JJ&DK were just two.
I was simply stating that we are all following some belief in regards to the eternal, such as 'Bad Climber' states in regards to himself/herself above.
This was in answer to Norton's question. "Why follow anything".
To be honest I was thinking about just giving it a bump(this thread since it was declining to third page status, and in interest to Norton) took a little time reviewing and noticed Jan's statement that was worthy of follow-up, and here we are once again trifling with petty insults/rediculous assumptions etc.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 19, 2009 - 09:33pm PT
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Well Norton I surely do not condone some of those practices(see the other current thread "Is this what Jesus..).
Here I am simply contributing discussion and sharing my beliefs as most of us are attempting to do.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 19, 2009 - 09:35pm PT
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Dr.-F.
The Holy Spirit is not a parasite, on the contrary, we feed on Him!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 19, 2009 - 09:50pm PT
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midarockjock- "the body is the temple of God..."
Good point. That comes from "Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirirt of God dwells in ? 1 Coritheans 3:16.
And "Or do you not know your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, who you have from God, and that you are not your own"? 1Corinthians 6:19 He bought us for a price!
This was a letter from the aposle Paul in regards to the believers there(Corinth).
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Nov 19, 2009 - 10:00pm PT
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Dr. F,
I don't read that to be unforgivable blaspheme of the holy spirit.
TripL7,
I know some very educated persons whom have dealt with the Holy
Spirit and it does not ever seem to be nice as believed by most.
To all,
here is my final summary here until I find further proof of carbon dating error.
Ardi pre-dates Homo Sapiens. Ardi is of genus etc. Hominid.
Homo Sapiens I have read predates the ice age ending and biblical
chronology even here in the State of CA. Gingko Biloba a tree also
did predate the ice age the last I checked it's record.
The evolutionary chain has apparently been disproved within this
thread by expert testimony due to coexistence of 2 different genus
at the same time. The expert testimony does not disprove other experts
chronology of Homo Sapiens which disproves Adam and Eve being
the first Homo Sapiens.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 19, 2009 - 10:03pm PT
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Doc!
I give ten %. It cost allot to build run and maintain a church. Many individuals who pastor or serve do it for nothing. Regardless, as the bible states "the worker is worth his due"! was referring to pastors. The apostle Paul set the precedent buy choosing to pay his own way(he was a tent maker)to discourage some of the excess we see today.
Much of what our church collects goes to orphans in Africa. The one I support is a beautiful little girl. It is the only way they could get an education/health care/food.
She belongs to the 'Children of the World" international choir which we also support. And much is directed towards the global aid crisis, particularly Africa.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 19, 2009 - 10:25pm PT
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midarockjock- " I know some very educated people who have dealt with the Holy Spirit and..."
That is called being chastised by Him. And as He states He is long suffering in regards to our stubborn nature.
I have dealt with Him on several occasions over the last 50+ years of my acquaintance with Him. On one occasion I refused a definite/personal call to be a missionary. And during communion the following week, did not notice the "log in my own eye, and came down hard on a close friend who was a new Christian for a petty fault of his own. I had led him to Christ(also taught to climb). This is no place to discuss it but I will tell you this, two weeks later after coming within inches of death, two weeks without food and sleep and a vision of hell. The first prayer out of my mouth for the next 18 months was..."please don,t let hell be that bad for the lost" and I would then wait for an answer, but it never came. He made a missionary out of me. It wasn't to Brazil, were I had been called, but none the less He had His way. And I am for ever grateful.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 19, 2009 - 10:31pm PT
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Dr.-F. "I hope they don't..."
Many are already Christian, many are Muslim, some are neither, or follow the local beliefs.
We lead by example, some do question those beliefs. It is her choice to request a bible or anything else. We simple give her love!
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4damages
climber
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Nov 19, 2009 - 10:45pm PT
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Dr. F.,
Yes, my major is not in that area.
No, it has not completely until acceptance of the coexistence.
And then what if they find another?
Yes, it has.
Not with all matter, but enough to prove to me that Adam and Eve
are not the first Homo Sapiens.
TripL7,
The article is in a privileged aeronautics document.
He wrote it.#15
http://besaw.webs.com/associations.htm
If interested email him. The journal I have is privileged
by law. I started receiving those journals after completing
#17 and #18 in that order. Read the first paragraph and except
the cert if interested. The link still works.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 19, 2009 - 11:02pm PT
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" I just never got into kissing anyone's ass."
It's because of God's Love that you obey Him, and it's always right and good!
I'm with you Pete, BLT's!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 20, 2009 - 08:37am PT
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Thru the Bible - Dr. J. Vernon McGee
It's the first day of going thru Hebrews!
Yeah buddy...
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/thru_the_bible_with_jvernon_mcgee/Archives.asp
The Supremacy of God's Son
Hebrews 1:1-4, Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Nov 20, 2009 - 11:35am PT
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The Second Law of Thermodynamics: Entrophy. "Entrophy is the measure of the disorder or randomness of energy and matter in a system. Entrophy always increases with time. Because of the second law of thermodynamics both energy and matter in the Universe are becoming less useful as time goes on."
Evolution states that all matter is becoming increasingly more complex and specific as time goes on.
Seems to me that there is a slight problem there. You have two laws of modern science, two supposedly fundamental laws, that completely contradict each other. You can't have both. They are in direct opposition, you have to choose one or the other...so which is it?
The Creator GOD INVENTED science...the Universe that was breathed into existence by His word, and His word alone.
If someone can logically explain to me how the phospholipid bilayer of the human cell could have "evolved", I would love to hear it. Study cellular biology...it will BLOW YOUR MIND.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 20, 2009 - 11:59am PT
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the second law of thermodynamics applies to closed systems in thermodynamic equilibrium
as you know thermodynamics simplifies the kinetic motion of 10^30 atoms into single averaged quantities like temperature and entropy
there can be local equilibrium, and there can be local non-equilibrium and the overall global system is still in equilibrium
there are non-equilibrium processes that can take place also, and systems for which more than the apparent kinetic equilibrium (e.g. chemical reactions) change the apparent equilibrium away from just the kinetic equilibrium, crystalization is a form of something being ordered out of non-order
in short, the existence of life does not violate any of the laws of thermodynamics, and in many ways are governed by those very same laws.
also, evolution does not state that there is an increasing order...
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Nov 20, 2009 - 12:03pm PT
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PS: Go look up the molecular structure of the laminin protein. It is a protein molecule that binds structures together. Laminin is a molecule that literally holds our bodies together. It is on Snopes. com, and other sites as well. It is a binding protein (part of what is sometimes termed the "basement membrane") that holds things together.
For those of you who may not have the time/inclination, the laminin protein molecule is formed in the shape of a CROSS. That is the scientific, structural arrangement of the protein, just as all proteins (and sugars, etc) have a unique structure that can be diagrammed. (As we all learned WAAAY back in biology!)
Colossians 1: 17 "He (Jesus) is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." It is the CROSS of Jesus Christ that holds it all together!!!
If you dig deeply enough, and don't accept at face value the status quo spin of much of "modern science" (which also has an agenda) you will learn that God IS the God of science.
I appreciate everyone's insights here, as well. It makes me realize how much miscommunication there is between those of who believe and those who don't, and how much we have done wrong in trying to communicate the Gospel. I think most of us just want to share Christ because we love Him and are excited about Him, and when you are excited about anything (such as a new route, new area) you want to SHARE it with others. It really is that simple. It is the sin and frailty of humans that has mucked it up.
PPS: I used to be an agnostic, then (some other things!) who made fun of Christians and Christianity. Just so you know. :)
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Nov 20, 2009 - 12:15pm PT
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Ed, everything I have ever read or learned about evolution does state that the theory rest on the premise that species are changing in specific ways to adapt more specifically to their environment. Are you saying that man is not more complex than apes? The entire foundation of evolution theory is that man evolved from apes to a more complex life form, with more refined motor skills and a more complex nervous system. With a more fully developed consciousness. How can you state that man is not more complex than the life form we supposedly evolved from?
And since energy governs matter, I still think you've got a problem with the second law.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 20, 2009 - 12:19pm PT
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Dr F -- "You do want to know the truth don't you"
LOL Hahaha
This proves right there that God exists Dr. God
You can not eliminate him.
Just look at your last preaching post above.
You are now taking the role of God, as an imitator.
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Nov 20, 2009 - 12:23pm PT
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Dr. F., I DO know the truth. As I stated, I used to use all the same arguements you are now using, and I thought Christians were just a bunch of idiots who didn't know any better, etc., etc., all the same things you are now saying. I was very bitter against God, the organized church, and Christians in general.
God showed me the truth...I did not "discover" it. The only way to know the truth is to ask God to show it to you. What have you got to lose by asking Him, sincerely, as a seeker?
Scientists have their own agenda as well. Think about all the billions of grant money they get to pursue their agenda. You think they want to lose that source of revenue?
I appreciate your questioning things, just as I once did. It is only by asking questions that we learn the Truth. And the Truth really does set you free, in so many ways. Ways that I never could have foreseen.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 20, 2009 - 12:35pm PT
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Even if you put all the atoms of every organism that ever lived together it would be an extremely tiny portion of the 10^30 atoms in the universe. So the complexity of this tiny subset hardly impacts the overall complexity.
This is like the global warming denier that notes that 'it sure has been cold around here, global warming must be a lie'
There is plenty of energy in the system to drive complexity into a small portion of the universe.
If we are not out of here before our sun supernovas, we'll be gone as well, our infinitesimal blip of complexity in the history of the universe will be cut even shorter.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 20, 2009 - 12:43pm PT
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if you are going to make a precise statement then you must define what you mean precisely.
The idea that "man is the crown of creation" is really a 19th century concept.
No, man is not more "complex" an organism than an ape, or even bacteria. Don't forget that bacteria probably represent the largest, most diverse class of life on the planet.
Evolution is a statement of adaptation to environment, not about complexity, and in many ways it is a statement of equilibrium within the environment. It is the ultimate application of scientific method with a twist... if a particular structure does not survive, it is eliminated.
Interestingly, on the business pages of the NYTimes this week, was the announcement that company DeCode filed for bankruptcy. The company made headlines in the past using the people of Iceland as a way of detecting disease-causing genetic mutations.
To quote the article:
Whatever business errors deCode may have made, a principal reason for its downfall is scientific — the genetic nature of human disease has turned out to be far more complex than thought.
Many researchers expected that just a handful of genetic mutations would explain most cases of any given major disease. But the mutations that deCode and others detected in each disease turned out to account for a small fraction of the overall incidence. Natural selection seems to be much more efficient than expected at ridding the population of dangerous genes, even of those that act well after the age of reproduction. That leaves thousands of different mutations, each very rare in the population, as the probable culprit. And because most of the mutations are rare, they are extremely hard to find.
emphases added by me...
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 20, 2009 - 01:00pm PT
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The seat of the soul is within the heart.
Watch .... whenever anyone says "I" and uses their hand as a gesture it always points towards the heart/chest.
When someone says I'm an idiot and uses their hand as a gesture they point to the head.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 20, 2009 - 01:01pm PT
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Conceptual Entropy, Second Law of Thermodynamics (i.e. easy to understand):
Let's say you build a small pyramid in your backyard out of fluvial cobblestones. It is perfect: high order, higher state of energy in the form of PE. You leave it alone for a very long time. Over time without further energy input, you will notice it will fall down on its own accord, gravity, wind, weathering, earthquakes etc. It will go from a higher order of energy state PE to KE to eventually ground level, a lower order or state of energy, PE = 0 J. This is Entropy.
Where did the energy go? Back to the Universe. Does this violate the First Law of Thermodynamics? No, the overall balance of Energy in the Universe is still the same, just in a state of less usuable form.
So how do "things" and life overcome Entropy? Energy must be continually added in through Work performed. How do we overcome Entropy? We breath, we eat, we drink, we love, we believe in God, we worship God etc. We continually take in Energy. Bold = Not discussed in any science class ever.
How quickly would the process of Entropy start to occur if we stopped breathing and bringing in energy? Within just a few minutes.
As I said before, I'm a Theistic Evolutionist. God began it all and has continued to be involved with his creation at key moments and to continually make adjustments according to his will. Does evolution occur? Yes. We can see evolution happen even within our lifetimes here on Earth, through bacteria and viruses etc. mutating quickly, changing and becoming more resistant to drugs etc. Life forms do change and evolve, they adapt. Does it occur exactly as the theory of Evolution describes in modern biological science today, that is completely Godless? Probably not. It doesn't allow for God's input or his further involvement.
And like I said before, if UFOs and ET are a real phenomenon, and they are, then the theory of Evolution as taught today will have a major revamp when disclosure occurs. Modern Evolution assumes we are alone and that we have always been alone. Not true.
Now I can teach classic modern God-less Evolution just like any good Earth Scientist or biologist has too in school today, and I do, and I do a good job doing so. After hours and on my own time if you ask me do I believe it as it is taught, I would have to say no I do not. Many aspects are correct, but the entire theory is not correct. It leaves out GOD and it leaves out any other influence on modern man from any other intellectual living life form's influence and manipulation throughout our history.
To completely believe all aspects of Modern Evolution Theory as taught and studied today, you have to believe that The Merriam-Webster Dictionary would randomly occur in its finished form from the explosion of a printing press. What are the odds of that happening? Yea, a few words would randomly occur, but the entire finished dictionary? No way. Impossible.
By the way, the analogy of the Dictionary would = the smallest, simplest microbial life form that life evolved from. I remember my first Biology Professor whom I became good friends with and we became good climbing partners, we climbed in the US and in Europe together, said many times to me, "The simplest life form is far more complex than the largest non-living matter or object that you can imagine." And he is a stern Evolutionist.
Yep, so true.
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Nov 20, 2009 - 01:02pm PT
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Do we know that there's a distinction between knowing and believing, or is that just something that we believe? Do we know that we can tell the difference, or do we believe that we can? It seems like the answer to that lies in the amount of information that we have, and do we believe that we have all the information to answer that? It seems that some people believe that they do have all the information, and some believe that they don't. I think that a rational proof of either of those is going to take a lot of posts.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 20, 2009 - 01:17pm PT
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Wow Klimmer, you teach science but don't understand it. As evident in your post above.
If believe God has a hand in ongoing evolution why don't you design an experiment to test that hypothesis. If you can do that and get a result that supports your hypothesis you will win a nobel prize and forever change our scientfic understanding of the universe.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 20, 2009 - 01:19pm PT
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No Skip, that's still a belief.
For many people eating a good breakfast is more important than a positive affirmation.
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MH2
climber
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Nov 20, 2009 - 01:21pm PT
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Homer,
As EdH has pointed out, the distinction is between which hypotheses you can test and those which you can't, and those which survive testing and gain wide acceptance in the scientific community which makes it their business to specialize in that particular branch of skepticism.
It doesn't really matter what you think you know or what you believe if you can't demonstrate to a skeptic evidence to back up your statement.
But that is only the final step. People seem to pluck great ideas out of the ether. Henry Adams back in the early 1800s saw a fossilized fish and immediately realized it was approximately as complex as human beings. I don't think he had and special training or knowledge, just a good mind.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 20, 2009 - 01:25pm PT
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It doesn't really matter what you think you know or what you believe if you can't demonstrate to a skeptic evidence to back up your statement.
Yes, exactly.
Otherwise blind faith, and robots .....
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jstan
climber
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Nov 20, 2009 - 01:39pm PT
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I wonder.
If those who "believe" in a god were sudddenly to say, "How might I test the hypothesis that there is a god?", what would change?
There isn't an obvious answer. There would not be an immediate effect. Our ideas for physical nature have been continually evolving and getting more accurate since long before the birth of christ and the end of polytheism. It takes time. If there is no way to test for the existence of a deity the search would take forever.
So the reluctance to "test" does not spring from fear of the consequences. From what is known now, there will be no proof deities do not "exist."
From whence comes the simple aversion to inquiry?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 20, 2009 - 01:49pm PT
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From being cheated.
The amount of cheaters is astronomical.
Thus:
In the Western world, theologians have been unable to scientifically present the laws of God or, indeed, God Himself, and thus in Western intellectual history a rigid dichotomy has arisen between theology and science. In an attempt to resolve this conflict, some theologians have agreed to modify their doctrines so that they conform not only to proven scientific facts but even to pseudoscientific speculations and hypotheses, which, though unproven, are hypocritically included within the realm of "science." On the other hand, some fanatical theologians disregard the scientific method altogether and insist on the veracity of their antiquated, sectarian dogmas.
Thus bereft of systematic theology, material science has moved into the destructive realm of gross materialism, while speculative Western philosophy has drifted into the superficiality of relativistic ethics and inconclusive linguistic analysis. With so many of the best Western minds dedicated to materialistic analysis, naturally much of Western religious life, separated from the intellectual mainstream, is dominated by irrational fanaticism and unauthorized mystic and mystery cults.
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jstan
climber
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Nov 20, 2009 - 02:01pm PT
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Picking up from Werner:
The period of human history that was the most intellectually productive was that of classical Greece prior to the end of polytheism, as best I can tell. Today we seem even to have lost their art for logical inquiry.
Does Werner's very real schism date from the time of christ?
It took easily 1000 years for us to regain the freedom to inquire. Witness what Galileo went through and is still going through even unto today.
It is real. It is there, should we choose to look at it.
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Nov 20, 2009 - 02:08pm PT
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I don't think there is an aversion to honest inquiry among believers. In fact, I think if you speak to many Christians, you will discover that they BECAME believers after in-depth, honest inquiry.
There is a man named Lee Strobel, hard-line atheist and journalist, who decided that once and for all, he was going to put a stop to all this Christian nonsense. He set out to definitively prove, through investigation, that God did not exist. What eventually happened, was that all of his inquiry led to him to believe that God DOES exist. CS Lewis was also a scholar and atheist, who through the evidence, came to believe in God and wrote numerous books about it. So did Stroebel. There is also a book called "The Hidden Face of God", that presents very clear, scientific evidence for God's existence. Afraid of honest inquiry? I think not! If anyone dismisses these books with a wave of the hand before reading them, I would say that person is the one who is afraid of inquiry. If you can't be bothered reading books that present the other point of view, have you really made every effort to make a full inquiry? You then are as guilty of what you accuse others of...not looking at all the evidence.
I have found, in the past, that the ones least open to genuine inquiry are the atheists. Christians have no fear of honest inquiry. We know that not all questions will be answered, or CAN be answered. (At least on this side of the veil). Logic and Christianity are not mutually exclusive.
That being said, there is an element of mystery and wonder that does make the Christian life very dynamic and exciting. I've done it both ways, and the life of faith is much more engaging and exciting. Life is much richer and deeper.
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4damages
climber
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Nov 20, 2009 - 02:22pm PT
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Dr. F.,
From past known terminology the leaf is compound.
Reference Thesaurus.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bipinnately
The tree should probably still be classified dicotyledon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dicotyledon
From past records these trees and leafs predate the bible and are
still here today . I have not verified updated records since the 90's.
The trees are quite common today depending on climate zone.
I probably can't answer anymore about anatomy and physiology here or
at another public place.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 20, 2009 - 02:25pm PT
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Yeah jstan
Socrates
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 20, 2009 - 02:29pm PT
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As I've said before in many posts, the existence of god makes sense only as an idea... the physical properties that would be a part of the "god hypothesis" are easy to be seen as improbable to the point of impossible.
Now if you are willing to throw out most of what we know is science, then a "reconciliation" of the points of view are possible. Similarly, if you are willing to throw out most of religious belief.
The traditional way around this is to merely state that these two intellectual domains are separate and do not impinge on each other. A dodge that doesn't work, this thread is an example of believers insisting that something that is not physically possible is...
Science does not admit supernatural phenomena, science is about natural phenomena.
God is supernatural, and has no place in science.
Even Newton knew that and dismissed god after genesis... god was the watchmaker, and once the spring was wound everything just worked.
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Nov 20, 2009 - 02:52pm PT
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How do you explain "Consciousness"? Science has never yet been able to completely define it, and has no consensus on what it actually IS. Science does not have any explanation for how consciousness even came to be. It is generally assumed to reside in the brain, yet there is also plenty of scientific evidence for somatic consciousness.
Yet we all KNOW that consciousness exists, because we all experience it. In the same way, you can also know that God exists because you experience Him. The "proof" of consciousness is in the experiencing of it. Just as the "proof" of God is in the experiencing of Him.
And as any good occultist will tell you, science is the basis for the manifestation of what is often termed the "supernatural".
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 20, 2009 - 02:57pm PT
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Ed wrote
"As I've said before in many posts, the existence of god makes sense only as an idea... the physical properties that would be a part of the "god hypothesis" are easy to be seen as improbable to the point of impossible."
That's only if you have preconceived ideas about what God is based on ancient religions (the science wasn't better than religion back then either)
What aspects of a "God Hypothesis" do you see as essential and how do they conflict?
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 20, 2009 - 03:01pm PT
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Interesting thing about consciousness is that it is the ONLY thing we TRULY know to exist.
Face it, ALL your information about the universe, world and yourself is received and acknowledged by your own consciousness alone. THere is no sure proof that NONE of this really exists around us and that this isn't just a "dream" within consciousness.
Peace
Karl
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 20, 2009 - 03:04pm PT
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The Fet said -
Wow Klimmer, you teach science but don't understand it. As evident in your post above.
If believe God has a hand in ongoing evolution why don't you design an experiment to test that hypothesis. If you can do that and get a result that supports your hypothesis you will win a nobel prize and forever change our scientfic understanding of the universe.
I have a very clear understanding of science. Do you? I don't think you do or you would not have said what you said.
Science is about Cosmic Order using the Scientific Method. It asks how or what questions. For science to be able to do anything regarding a phenomenon or question about the Universe, it must be able to be placed within the constructs of a scientific hypothesis, in other words in must be testable. Science is a very powerful tool, but it is a tool non-the-less. It can not answer all questions that can be asked. It can not answer non-scientific hypotheses, but it can not be said that non-scientific hypotheses are not true or not valid, since science can't say one way or another. Science can only work with empirical data and scientific hypotheses, nothing more. (Some people believe that is all there is. That in itself would be a faith, or a religion. It can be argued that some elevate science to a religion in this regard. I don't. Science is a tool, a very powerful tool but it can not answer all questions.)
Religion is about Cosmic Purpose. It answers why questions, which are out side of the constructs of science to answer. Religion, logic, philosophy etc. can attempt to answer these questions.
Science and Religion are two very important human endeavors and are compatible, but serve different purposes. Know the difference.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 20, 2009 - 03:05pm PT
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God is supernatural, and has no place in science.
I disagree 100%
The supernatural is not a separate entity from the natural.
They are one and same.
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4damages
climber
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Nov 20, 2009 - 03:20pm PT
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Dr. F,
I re-edited the note you asked for. Jacaranda is bipinnate.
See monocotyledon for clarification. I believe palms are also those
as is grass also noting palms should probably not be classified as trees
due to xylem lacking.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 20, 2009 - 03:24pm PT
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Klimmer in your last post you say "Science is a tool, a very powerful tool but it can not answer all questions". That is correct.
But in a previous post you say "Modern Evolution assumes we are alone and that we have always been alone." Evolution doesn't assume anything about that. Evolution fully allows for life to develop on other celestial bodies, and in fact scientists put a lot of effort into looking for it. What revamp of evolution would occur if extra terrestrial life were found?
Scientists would love to find other form of life, especially non-DNA or even non-carbon based life, it would greatly help our understanding of evolution.
I agree with Werner. If God exists I would expect him/her to be a natural force. But I understand most believe he would be supernatural.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 20, 2009 - 03:40pm PT
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It seems what we have here is a reflection of the two main methods of dealing with confliciting religions. For a child born in a household where each parent has strong but very different religious beliefs, the child has two main possibilities for coping with religion.
One is the position of syncretism where by that child cobbles together his or her own belief system using what is perceived as the best of both views. The other position is that of cultural pluralism whereby the child accepts and practices both religions depending on which parent he or she is with and which temple or church is being visited at any point in time.
It seems to me we have advocates of both approaches on this thread in regard to the different approaches to life of science and religion. So the question for each contributor is - are you a syncretist or a cultural pluralist?
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4damages
climber
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Nov 20, 2009 - 03:49pm PT
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"God is supernatural, and has no place in science."
WBraun,
Yes, I to disagree with the above and agree with you,
though I believe religious bias is a problem in the
military. Also I believe neither science or religion
is perfect.
Do you think I am surpassing you for the most picked
on @ ST?
http://besaw.webs.com/contact.htm
I'm leaving now for the weekend. I'll check next week.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 20, 2009 - 03:58pm PT
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Weschrist-
I never said science was a religion, but I will say that it is a belief system. For Ed and most other mainstream scientists to say the physical world is all there is, is itself a belief system, based in my view, on incomplete knowledge of the spiritual realm. Incomplete knowledge while discussing science is the very thing they accuse both religious and spiritual people of when they try to talk about that subject.
So perhaps there are irreconcilable differences between the two, and cultural pluralism is the only possible response for anyone wishing to study both fields.
However, it seems to me that the more interesting challenges, are those of syncretism, of at least attempting to reconcile ideas of consciousness/spirit and matter.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 20, 2009 - 04:14pm PT
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Sometimes I wonder if I ever should have started this thread.
It was ALL about Ardi, and the increasing evolutionary proof that
we modern primates can now extend our common ancestry linkage back
to over four million years ago.
NO, for the LAST TIME: Moderns humans did NOT evolve from monkeys
or apes. But, we DO have a "common ancestor" with them.
IF one has a questioning, rational, and logical brain, then one can
easily accept that Charles Darwin nailed it, life started some three billion
years ago on this planet, and evolved, and HERE WE ARE.
If you cannot stand the thought that there is NO afterlife, and that
somehow modern humans are not "special", then go ahead and believe
in the personal comfort that all religions MADE UP, and offer you.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Nov 20, 2009 - 04:25pm PT
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"The supernatural is not a separate entity from the natural."
As a scientist, I would have to agree. There is no place in science for saying something does not exist. Just because you cannot measure it or prove to any reasonable level of probability that it exists does not mean it does not exist. God could be a natural phenomena that we have yet to understand. God may not be "magic" at all.
Of course without magic, which is the ability for something to happen that cannot happen, there would still be no God. For if God existed within the bounds of some sort of physical laws, God would then have to explain God's existence within those laws and that would make God very un-God-like.
So do all of the believers really believe in magic? It's the ability for something to happen contrary to the laws of the universe or beyond. Or is God just a fancy name for an alien that has lots of power compared to us but must sit and ponder his existence like we do?
If you believe in magic then I believe in Santa Claus and there is no way in hell you can tell me he doesn't exist... since it's magic.
Dave
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Nov 20, 2009 - 04:27pm PT
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Norton,
Any thread, discussion, etc..., about evolution will always promote an argument about religion unless the room is filled with atheists. You know that the taco is not filled with atheists.
No one can possibly believe in evolution as it applies to humans and also believe in God (as defined by modern religion) without just rationalizing that God made us evolve. We all know that anyone with that rationalization is just avoiding deciding what they really believe and what is utter crap.
Dave
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 20, 2009 - 04:34pm PT
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Dr. F-
There is a difference between religion which focusses on creeds and dogmas, and sometimes very complex philosophical concepts, and the true spiritual world which is about interior experiences which change one's life.
You have clearly experienced religion, but not an interior spiritual life.
You are correct in pointing out that the holy books and beliefs of many religions are quite outdated, especially in their attempts to explain the natural world.
However, your experience of interior spirituality is also at a very basic level, thwarted it would seem, by your bad experiences with religion.
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jstan
climber
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Nov 20, 2009 - 04:38pm PT
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"I never said science was a religion, but I will say that it is a belief system."
Jan I am, once again, having trouble with the words.
In these discussions the word "belief" functionally means concepts that are held absent objective data. The word has been redefined and former meanings stripped away by common usage.
I would agree with you that science is a "methodology" or a way of determining how the natural world functions. An iterative process that is constantly changing, hopefully improving, our ability to understand and predict natural phenomena.
And the methodology itself, is open to challenge and to improvement.
Werner hit on something really important when he describes what exists as a schism( my word).
What we have had on earth for the past few millennia is not unlike what would obtain were a race of intergallactic aliens to settle here.
There is no communication and no common language.
During my lifetime I have seen a definite interest in our moving ever further away from developing a language.
We are almost taking pride in the existence of this schism.
While this may make good politics, it bodes ill for our future.
Ultimately, there may be no future.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 20, 2009 - 04:39pm PT
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Norton-
I have definitely done my share of writing about fossils on this thread.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 20, 2009 - 04:42pm PT
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"What is God then, you give us a definition of what he is, and we can see if we can work with it"
Maybe it's BS to try to define God so glibly and admit the limitations of our minds, at least now, for both for science and religion. Just because there is a God doesn't mean we can get a handle on him. Just because our 4 year old kids can't really get a handle on us doesn't mean we don't exist.
For starters though, to see how it fits into the bigger equation, let's take what one Eastern Religion says defines God. Existence, Consciousness and Bliss (which is pretty much the same as Love, except without object) is said to be the nature of God.
If God created this whole shebang from within God's self, using God's own consciousness, naturally we aren't going to find some tiny, petty God within the drama to pin our blame on.
Our minds are very much conditioned by our experience of Time and Space, which are limited in scope even by the finding of science. How can we understand something that exists outside time and space? What experiments have the tools to measure something beyond time and space?
Peace
Karl
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Nov 20, 2009 - 04:47pm PT
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jstan - thanks for that. I'm still struggling to understand the difference in what we mean between "believe" and "know". Believing is a perception that you have on your own, and knowing is a perception that is shared between people (with similar perceptions)? And we can "be sure" of things that we don't "know"? It is confusing.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 20, 2009 - 04:59pm PT
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I never said science was a religion, but I will say that it is a belief system.
Jan your contributions to this thread are great, but that statement is off base.
Science is about knowlege. That knowledge can help form people's belief systems, but it is only a part of it.
I guess this thread, and this conflict in general is when science conflicts with religous beliefs. Personally I would rather go with science in these instances because I am far more likely to believe something that is shown to me, rather than something told to me.
I have never had an experience with religion where they said "this is how to see God" and they gave a systematic, repeatable, reasonable way to experience God. If they did I'd probably be in that religion. Instead religion just says "This is what God is, because we say it is." That doesn't cut it with me.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 20, 2009 - 05:02pm PT
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remember that creationism and belief in god are not the same things. 99% of Chrisitans reject creationism for the ignorant head in the sand superstition that it is.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 20, 2009 - 05:11pm PT
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jaybro, I wish that was the case, but it's much closer to 90% believing in Creationism.
On another note, I would think most scientists would be agnostic because there is no scientific proof for or against God, so denying there could be a God is unscientific.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 20, 2009 - 05:11pm PT
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It's past bed time on my side of the world, but I will get back to you all. I have the feeling in fact, that we might finally be making some headway here. At least we can agree that one of the big problems is lack of a common vocabulary. That's something concrete that we can work on.
Meanwhile, I do agree with Fet that a scientist should be agnostic. I say that as soon as scientists say they think the world is only material, then they are reflecting a belief system, not science.
To take a stance in favor of a material interpretation takes more courage and is more interesting however, than agnosticism, and certainly challenges me to think more deeply about my own beliefs.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 20, 2009 - 05:30pm PT
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Baba
"So are the Christians talking to Jesus and God, does he talk to them individually and tell them good things, like they say?
do you have to surrender yourself to Jesus to be saved?
Or is all this just BS, and you can't really talk to God, and he doesn't really care about single humans"
We are all in a state of relative non-understanding and that includes science. We do the best we can. Your infant kid says "Da da" and you say things to her, but what does she understand?
"Caring" is a human idea. A God that suffers conflicting emotions over the pains, failures and triumphs of trillions and trillions of living beings in a mind boggling universe is a human idea. We think in Linear rational modes but the ultimate Being is nothing like that.
My experience, our relationship with the divine is built into our souls, which are a spark of the God. Some direct inspiration is possible at that level but then our minds often muck it up afterwards. Somebody has a light dawn within, thinks about it, and then concludes "God wants me to skin you alive!!"
Peace
Karl
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 20, 2009 - 05:39pm PT
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Fet, I suspect that's sampling error and badly worded surveys. I know a lot of people who go to church and I've met like two in my entire life that entertain the notion of creationism. Probably more than that, but once they say that, their credibility is zero and one tunes them out.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 20, 2009 - 05:44pm PT
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Oh this is sure to flame the fire . . .
Researcher: Faint writing seen on Shroud of Turin
By ARIEL DAVID, Associated Press Writer Ariel David, Associated Press Writer – 22 mins ago
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091120/ap_on_re_eu/eu_italy_shroud_of_turin
Barbara Frale, a researcher at the Vatican archives, says in a new book that she used computer-enhanced images of the shroud to decipher faintly written words in Greek, Latin and Aramaic scattered across the cloth.
She asserts that the words include the name "(J)esu(s) Nazarene" — or Jesus of Nazareth — in Greek. That, she said, proves the text could not be of medieval origin because no Christian at the time, even a forger, would have mentioned Jesus without referring to his divinity. Failing to do so would risk being branded a heretic.
"Even someone intent on forging a relic would have had all the reasons to place the signs of divinity on this object," Frale said Friday. "Had we found 'Christ' or the 'Son of God' we could have considered it a hoax, or a devotional inscription."
The shroud bears the figure of a crucified man, complete with blood seeping from his hands and feet, and believers say Christ's image was recorded on the linen's fibers at the time of his resurrection.
The fragile artifact, owned by the Vatican, is kept locked in a protective chamber in a Turin cathedral and is rarely shown. Measuring 13 feet (four meters) long and three feet (one meter) wide, the shroud has suffered severe damage through the centuries, including from fire.
The Catholic Church makes no claims about the cloth's authenticity, but says it is a powerful symbol of Christ's suffering.
There has been strong debate about it in the scientific community.
Skeptics point out that radiocarbon dating conducted on the cloth in 1988 determined it was made in the 13th or 14th century.
But Raymond Rogers of Los Alamos National Laboratory said in 2005 that the tested threads came from patches used to repair the shroud after a fire. Rogers, who died shortly after publishing his findings, calculated it is 1,300 to 3,000 years old and could easily date from Jesus' era.
Another study, by the Hebrew University, concluded that pollen and plant images on the shroud showed it originated in the area around Jerusalem sometime before the eighth century.
While faint letters scattered around the face on the shroud were seen decades ago, serious researchers dismissed them, due to the results of the radiocarbon dating test, Frale told The Associated Press.
But when she cut out the words from enhanced photos of the shroud and showed them to experts, they concurred the writing style was typical of the Middle East in the first century — Jesus' time.
She believes the text was written on a document by a clerk and glued to the shroud over the face so the body could be identified by relatives and buried properly. Metals in the ink used at the time may have allowed the writing to transfer to the linen, Frale said.
She said she counted at least 11 words in her study of enhanced images produced by French scientists in a 1994 study. The words are fragmented and scattered on and around the image's head, crisscrossing the cloth vertically and horizontally.
One short sequence of Aramaic letters has not been fully translated. Another fragment in Greek — "iber" — may refer to Emperor Tiberius, who reigned at the time of Jesus' crucifixion, Frale said.
She said the text also partially confirms the Gospels' account of Jesus' final moments. A fragment in Greek that can be read as "removed at the ninth hour" may refer to Christ's time of death reported in the holy texts, she said.
In her book "The Shroud of Jesus Nazarene," published in Italian, Frale reconstructs from the lettering on the shroud what she believes Jesus' death certificate said: "Jesus Nazarene. Found (guilty of inciting the people to revolt). Put to death in the year 16 of Tiberius. Taken down at the ninth hour."
She said the text then stipulates the body will returned to relatives after a year.
Frale said her research was done without the support of the Vatican.
"I tried to be objective and leave religious issues aside," Frale told the AP. "What I studied was an ancient document that certifies the execution of a man, in a specific time and place."
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 20, 2009 - 06:04pm PT
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Intelligent people 'less likely to believe in God'
People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God, according to a
new study.
Professor Richard Lynn, emeritus professor of psychology at Ulster University, said many more members of the "intellectual elite" considered themselves atheists than the national average.
A decline in religious observance over the last century was directly linked to a rise in average intelligence, he claimed.
But the conclusions - in a paper for the academic journal Intelligence - have been branded "simplistic" by critics.
Professor Lynn, who has provoked controversy in the past with research linking intelligence to race and sex, said university academics were less likely to believe in God than almost anyone else.
A survey of Royal Society fellows found that only 3.3 per cent believed in God - at a time when 68.5 per cent of the general UK population described themselves as believers.
A separate poll in the 90s found only seven per cent of members of the American National Academy of Sciences believed in God.
Professor Lynn said most primary school children believed in God, but as they entered adolescence - and their intelligence increased - many started to have doubts.
He told Times Higher Education magazine: "Why should fewer academics believe in God than the general population? I believe it is simply a matter of the IQ. Academics have higher IQs than the general population. Several Gallup poll studies of the general population have shown that those with higher IQs tend not to believe in God."
He said religious belief had declined across 137 developed nations in the 20th century at the same time as people became more intelligent.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2111174/Intelligent-people-'less-likely-to-believe-in-God'.html
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Nov 20, 2009 - 06:06pm PT
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Dr. F., I will say that yes, God has spoken directly to me in several instances, and that what He had to tell me on at least two of those occassions was NOT what I wanted to hear. I resisted...I argued...I ignored.
But, ultimately, what He said was correct, and even when I tried to ignore Him, it worked out for the greater good. What He was telling me were things I would not ever have told myself, or "made up", as they were diametrically the opposite of what I wanted at the time.
Sometimes what He has to tell us is hard to hear. But He can see the bigger picture when I cannot, and I hope that in most cases now when He tells me something I don't really want to hear at the time, I have the wherewithall to shut up and just let Him work.
The times I have heard Him and just totally said, "Sorry, I hear You but I am still going to do what I want, even though You have warned me," well, let's just say those things didn't turn out so well in the end!
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 20, 2009 - 06:17pm PT
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To take a stance in favor of a material interpretation takes more courage and is more interesting however, than agnosticism,
Maybe in conversations with other people it takes courage to take a stance, but I would say it takes more courage to admit to yourself that you don't know.
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Nov 20, 2009 - 07:05pm PT
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I like the idea of the schism. I feel like there’s a natural schism in our body of our thinking (not unlike our body’s thinking) between strictly rational thinking and intuitive emotional spiritual thinking.
On an individual level, strictly rational thinking might produce more accurate results, but intuitive thinking gets the job done quicker (and usually as accurately) with incomplete information. We sometimes have more information than we know.
For our body of thinking, strictly rational thinking requires complete information, which is difficult and costly (infinity?) to obtain. We’re always left feeling a need to fill in the blanks with some irrational belief, which seems to me especially ironic given our rational process in getting there.
In my personal experience, my preference for strictly rational thinking (with it’s attendant slow processing speed) has been less advantageous than I expected. I’m starting to feel that it’s not really that irrational for people to have irrational beliefs.
To me, that seems wacky, like creationism.
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Nov 20, 2009 - 07:09pm PT
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Homer, I think you are wiser than you realize...
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 20, 2009 - 07:57pm PT
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weschrist- "I have no reason to believe that "consciousness" exist beyond a highly adaptive response to external stimulus".
How about guilt? Say your dog(the one who drug home the dead squirrel) tomorrow brought home the next door neighbors dead little girl, and dropped her on your steps. After you were warned by them that he had threatened her, and recommended to you to keep him restrained. And you refused!!
I suppose that is just a highly adaptive response, eh?
FWIW-Let me give you my explanation were it comes from.
When I was 8 yrs old I met a man, an alleged serial killer, attempted to murder me. Sons and daughter say he has murdered over 30+ youth and the DA office in two states seem to agree. Thirty-one days after he was about to murder me(describing in detail how he was about to torture me). I stood alone staring into that mans eyes(he had been electrocuted at work and was at his mothers house, covered from head to toe with a gauze wrap bandage). I stood there peering long and hard thinking to myself "this man will never be able to hurt me or anyone again, he is as good as dead."
Well 5 yrs. later, for the first and only time in my life, as I was getting on my bicycle, I had a flashback. I was suddenly peering into his eyes again, thinking the same thoughts and seething with hate for him(Ed Ginn). Suddenly, as if I crossed some barrier, I realised that my feelings for him were exactly what he felt towards me and the world. Absolutely no empathy/remorse, a bitter hate. For a moment I or felt just the way he felt towards all humanity, towards him, a bitter hate for what he had done. And I did realise, at that moment, that in some strange way, that our souls had become one in a similar type of cold callus hate. I had the identical hate for him that he had for me and the world. In other words I saw into and experienced a part of this mans soul/hate.
As I sat there seething with hate for this man, suddenly, without any invitation or thought on my part, I was hit with a surge of guilt that broke me from that deep gaze into which I had become locked once again. I recall immediately spinning around and bitterly yelling out to God..."Why should I feel guilty, after what he said he was was going to do to me"? I didn't know until years later that I had to forgive him(Ed Ginn), or risk having that hate redirected towards others in some form or fashion.
I rarely, if ever thought about Ed Ginn before that. And never had any nightmares etc. I did have a relationship with my Savior(both literal and spiritual)for He both saved my life that afternoon and I new He was indeed God. And for a long time I could not understand what He was telling me that day. I was certain God was wrong in regards to infusing me with guilt that afternoon. And I had, and have no doubt that it was He who brought it to my attention. For I had no sympathy for that man, and certainly no guilt associated for my hatred and disgust for such a human being. God intervened in my life again that day.
I have only shared this with my brother and one sister. Today I share it with you, think of it as you may. God gave us a conscious in regards to right and wrong, it is up to us to follow it.
I shared my story about that terrifying afternoon and the subsequent encounter 31 days later with this evil man right here on this thread message/post # 1622 for those curious or interested.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 20, 2009 - 08:08pm PT
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4damages, your leaf is from a, Ginkgo gĭng'kō or maidenhair tree, tall, slender, picturesque deciduous tree (Ginkgo biloba) with fan-shaped leaves.
Proof of God is all around us, also in the Bible, but you can't pull him out of a hat!
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jstan
climber
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Nov 20, 2009 - 08:55pm PT
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Homer:
Lot of ideas here, too many to deal with all at once.
You mentioned "being sure." I think if you look out at the world it soon becomes apparent there is no such thing as "certainty" or "absolute knowledge."
Absoulte knowledge is a dream founded on our own psychological needs.
Even the statement the earth orbits the sun has limits. As a result of fairly well understood mechanical processes the motions of all the celestial bodies are changing. It will take awhile, the sun may have already burned out, or we may collide with another galaxy, but everything is changing.
And your wondering on the "schism" is pretty much on target. Science has given us incredible material advances since the end of the Dark Ages. But are people that much more satisfied with their lives? I wonder. I think religions have some very good suggestions as to how we might satisfy our psychological needs. Jesus apparently said some very good things. Too bad we are not listening to him.
We are told to stone the people we don't like. Don't hear too many suggestions we turn the other cheek.
As long as the schism persists and we doggedly hold to these old stories and ideas dreamed up two millennia ago we are going to continue to have material success coupled with psychological dependency.
Unless, as has happened so many times in the past, we just kill each other off.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 20, 2009 - 08:57pm PT
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Absolute knowledge is a dream founded on our own psychological needs.
Don't believe it.
Absolute knowledge is infinity.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 20, 2009 - 09:54pm PT
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"Norton, how could we have evolved from a common ancestor? There is no direct evidence, nobody was there to witness it. All they have are some old bones and a theory. That is nothing compared to ancient fairy tales written by some delusional desert wanderers."
I guess if you believe the bible literally, maybe even figuratively, everyone 'evolved' from a common ancestor.
Otherwise, no matter who you believe it's likely the Earth was uninhabitable in the beginning and when life manifested itself, you could call that the common ancestor.
Others think we are like the zoo animals in an Alien sponsored experiment, seeded here long ago. That would really shake up the debate if they landed to announce their findings.
Makes we wistful, wouldn't it be cool to get some in-your-face undeniable evidence to stir the debate?
PEace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 20, 2009 - 09:57pm PT
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everyone 'evolved' from a common ancestor.
What's wrong with that?
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jstan
climber
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Nov 20, 2009 - 10:26pm PT
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"everyone 'evolved' from a common ancestor"
While it is possible everything evolved from a single individual at some point, when you consider what must have been happening, it is not probable. Apparently sometime less than a half billion years after the earth had cooled down, under almost any imaginable scenario there would have been huge numbers of neo-life-forms all competing and changing together. We may get some sort of psychological benefit out of thinking there was "one" successful competitor. As we still, even today, get some pay off from thinking there is someone who is the "best in the world". The concept of "best" is imaginary. Best according to what criteria?
One of the most important tasks each of us has is to avoid letting our own psychological needs and makeup limit us.
Werner:
Here we are down to words, again. I used the word "individual". Why? Because it is not clear there were specie at the beginning. And because a lot of people read "common ancestor" and think individual.
I for one do not know the precision with which Darwin used the word nor do I know to which portion of the evolutionary drama he was referring. And I do not automatically assume Darwin was perfectly right in everything he thought or said. With the politics of the day I surely do not expect he said everything that he thought.
Edit:
My hypothesis about the importance of hidden psychological needs has just been supported by the appearance of a thread here about the competition to have "the tallest building in the world."
I think we need look no further to understand a few of the weird aspects of human behavior
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 20, 2009 - 10:28pm PT
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Well didn't Darwin also say we came from a common ancestor.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 20, 2009 - 11:07pm PT
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DR.F.- "All this is in your minds".
That is a rationalization, which is what I would expect from most people. And yes it did take place in my mind/thought processes. But I in no way before, during, or after think that I was guilty. And in fact thought that God had somehow accused me of something I was not guilty of or should not be in the wrong for feeling. And much like Bronwyn was sharing with you, God did indeed see ahead, and alerted me to the danger of such thinking. It took many years, but I never forgot His intervention, and I eventually came to agree that although I did not have to like the man, I had to forgive him.
So my question to weschrist was, where does guilt/empathy etc. come from? Is it is no more than a highly adaptive response to external stimuli? I believe it was given to us by a Creator who designed us to have some of the same characteristic's that He has, feelings if you will. "Created man in His image...". And given a choice to obey or not.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 20, 2009 - 11:17pm PT
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Bronwyn's argument about consciousness is wrong on many levels. Certainly consciousness is the subject of scientific investigation. The explanation is obvious, it is an evolved adaptation. What we think we know about consciousness is very different from the reality of consciousness, this is quite well documented in the scientific literature, and in popular books on the subject, you can read Daniel Dennetn's Consciousness Explained as an example, though judging this crowd it won't get very good reviews.
Secondly, arguing that we don't have a scientific explanation for consciousness doesn't meant that we won't, or that we can't have one. The implicit assumption in that post is that because we don't have an explanation, we can't explain it, and therefore it exists because of "God." Stated that way the argument is ridiculous.
Going beyond that is yet another statement regarding "science is the basis for the manifestation of what is often termed the 'supernatural'." Which I don't understand at all.
Main Entry: su·per·nat·u·ral
Pronunciation: \ˌsü-pər-ˈna-chə-rəl, -ˈnach-rəl\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Medieval Latin supernaturalis, from Latin super- + natura nature
Date: 15th century
1 : of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil
2 a : departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature b : attributed to an invisible agent (as a ghost or spirit)
As science is a study wholly related to the visible observable universe, there would seem to be no overlap between the two. The point is, if what you take to be "supernatural" actually affects the "natural" then it is a part of the "visible observable universe" and can be observed, measured, quantified, detected.
There is no such thing.
This is an assertion that will be objectionable to many of you, but it is an assertion that I make confident that you cannot refute it.
Further, as we have reminded everyone here time and again, science is not about proving something is correct but about showing that something is not correct. Thus evolution is consistent with the observations related to biological systems. It is an explanation which is not disproved by what we know.
We can also say that the creationist explanation is consistent with the observations, however, it is consistent by construction. It is an explanation that says, essentially, that God made it so, whatever it is. The obvious limitations to such an explanation is that it doesn't help us understand any more about biology, it reduces it to simply cataloging what is without understanding if there are deeper, biological connections. The creationist explanation is sterile, it cannot produce more, or new knowledge.
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MH2
climber
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Nov 20, 2009 - 11:24pm PT
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science is not about proving something is correct but about showing that something is not correct
This is part of what makes math so attractive.
Though proof by contradiction is often useful.
Is math part of the material world?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 20, 2009 - 11:30pm PT
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Thanks for sharing the story 777
That's real insight regarding hate.
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 20, 2009 - 11:42pm PT
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Yes, we all came from a common ancestor
So you agreed
Darwin agreed
That God is the common ancestor.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 20, 2009 - 11:47pm PT
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weschrit!
The vast majority of human beings have the response known as guilt when they do something that should elicit that response? People born with a defect and never mature past a child like state are not held accountable for there actions. Some injury or disability obviously not a curse or test. It sounds as though you were brought by or closely acquainted with some one who had little knowledge of the word of God.
My first question had to do with guilt. Were does it come from? I added empathy being the ability to share another's emotions or feelings. Guilt being that one comes to the realization that one has violated a moral standard. Has done something wrong. As I shared above I had done nothing wrong as far as I was concerned.
You can deaden parts of the mind until you come up with a comatose person.
Guilt? Your dog evidently shows no guilt in regards to what he left on the door!!! Where does our guilt originate from?? Just a response to........???
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 20, 2009 - 11:56pm PT
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Weaschrist- "You obviously don't know Willey".
I just came up with a hypothetical question. It could have been in regards to anything that could illicit guilt. Such as getting angry and hitting someone for instance.
I am sure Willey' is a good boy.
BTW I love dogs.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 21, 2009 - 12:18am PT
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Karl Baba- "Thanks for sharing...that's real insight regarding hate".
Forgiveness is a big part of Christs message. That we should love and forgive our enemies as well as those we consider friends or loved ones. He was thinking of our own well-being as much as our enemies. In that bitterness and hate will not only destroy others, but ourselves and our relationships as well. Sometimes it takes just that, some time before we can forgive.
I have had some very good Christian friends that bitterly hate their fathers. And it became apparent that they were having trouble relating to their Heavenly Father.
Thanks, Trip~
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jstan
climber
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Nov 21, 2009 - 12:20am PT
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"where does guilt/empathy etc. come from? Is it is no more than a highly adaptive response to external stimuli? I believe it was given to us by a Creator who designed us to have some of the same characteristic's that He has, feelings if you will. "
I very sincerely hope that a god, if such exists, is NOT like us. Look around us and tell me you want a god who does this.
The text above posits the possibility guilt is an evolved adaptation and then immediately diverts the discussion to accept an alternative explanation that has no evidence at all to support it. The result is an illogical discussion.
I would now attempt to examine evidence we see each day in our lives suggesting how the evolutionary adaptation not only worked in the past but how it is working today for each of us.
Suppose you are say, a carpenter, and you have been assigned a job for which your experience is less than you would like. This is not an unusual circumstance and it can be extrapolated to any activity involving the cooperation of two or more individuals. But to be specific, let's say you are forming up for a concrete pour with very esthetic curves and the job will be very closely examined before it will be bought off. You have a pair of just born twins at home and no other jobs offered. Not so unusual, eh?
As soon as you reach the job site do you disparage your coworker to his face? Ridicule him? I would suggest not. It is more likely you would be very anxious to support him in successful completion of the job and even more interested in learning from him the things you need to know. Suppose he does, for some reason, accept you and attempt to assist you. He has befriended you. He did not have to accept you. He could have gone to the super and said, "Get rid of this idiot!"
Now suppose you, not surprisingly, did not do as good a job on one part as your practiced coworker. He sees the result and smilingly says, "Not a problem. We can fix that up in a jiffy. Here's how.
How will you feel? Guilty? Guilty because you have not been able to support a friend as you would have liked? Someone whose friendship you desperately need.
Now 777 if you had told me there was a very courageous fellow in Jerusalem 2000 years ago who had tried to convince everyone to support others as the coworker in this story had done I would say, "I believe it! I see wonderful people every day. They are everywhere.
You leave me when all powerful gods who seem to do nothing are brought into a discussion when a very reasonable answer is right there in front of us.
People who try to do good things for others are all around us.
Them I'll believe in.
Edit:
Gobee is clearly interested in proselytizing only among the young.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 21, 2009 - 01:00am PT
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weschrist- "I found myself slamming your God that would create creatures in His image with such a terrible trait when the alternitive would have been so much better".
He created us with free will, choice! the only alternative is robots or puppets. Do not blame Him for our choices. What alternitive weschrist, would be so much better?
I took years of anatomy, physiology, neuroanatomy, neurophysiology, psych. and abnormal psych., human development etc. and have worked in both locked wards and outpatient facility's. Studied post graduate studies in clinical psychology('95). And through my work have read many articles/thesis and research that have both supported the "idea"(they are just that "ideas" to quote your source)and have come up with alternative findings. By the way, I have done much research into the disorder classified as Sociopaths or Psychopaths who seem to lack or have repressed empathy and guilt. My graduate thesis was in abnormal psychology, specifically the behavior of sociopath's iin this specific regard. I am an licensed Occupational Therapist, an OTR/L.
Your dogs are conditioned to respond to acts that will either please or discourage you. Did you run up and give them a hug after they destroyed your belongings? No? It was a reaction the same as if you had rewarded them for fetching a bone. Your dogs did not feel grief or sorrow for what they did while they waited in the dog house for your mood to change. They could see nothing wrong with their actions, only your reaction and subsequent response. I have owned three dogs, and hope to get one more.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 21, 2009 - 01:02am PT
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"Gobee goes for the younins... easy targets...
I pity the fool who clings to his poverty, the poorest person, is the one without God!
It takes a broken wise soul to know that he can't earn his way to heaven.
Thanks to Jesus, God made a way, it is finished, rejoice!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 21, 2009 - 01:29am PT
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jstan- "I very sincerely hope that a god, if he exists is not like us...".
And that is exactly what God is trying to relate to us. I am Holy, for you should be holy.
You are missing the whole point about in His image. We have a soul(our personality/individuality/integrity, who we are.) He gave us a spirit to relate to Him. He gave us the knowledge of good. Something dogs or other beast do not have. We received evil, the knowledge of it during the fall of man in Eden. He gives us the choice now, what do you choose. He gave us a conscience to recognise good and evil.
Some individuals harden their heart to the point where the prodding of God through their conscience is null and void. It is your choice.
It sounds like you hate the concept of God because of the actions of man.
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MH2
climber
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Nov 21, 2009 - 01:39am PT
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I don't have a copy of The Expression of the Emotions in Man and Animals so I don't know at the moment what Darwin may have had to say about guilt. I do have How the Mind Works and when you have a book you should use it, so I looked up what Steven Pinker had to say about guilt. The word 'guilt' does appear in the index but the word 'forgiveness' does not, so we do not get a complete picture.
Steven Pinker says, "It would be unwise to pave Yosemite", so beware that he tries to entertain as well as enlighten the reader.
So we look for religion in the index and find that H.L. Mencken wrote, "The most common of all follies is to believe in the palpably not true."
Steven Pinker himself:
"We can well imagine creatures with fewer cognitive faculties than we have:[examples including dogs]. So why should there not be creatures with more cognitive faculties than we have, or with different ones? They might readily grasp how free will and consciousness emerge from a brain and how meaning and morality fit into the universe."
"In mathematics, one says that the integers are closed under addition: adding two integers produces another integer; it can never produce a fraction. But that does not mean that the set of integers is finite. Humanly thinkable thoughts are closed under the workings of our cognitive faculties [kind of a leap, there] and may never embrace the solutions to the mysteries of philosophy. But the set of thinkable thoughts may be infinite nonetheless."
[a little math envy in the above]
"If these conjectures are correct, our psyche would present us with the ultimate tease. The most undeniable thing there is, our own awareness, would be forever beyond our conceptual grasp."
And I like it that Steven Pinker, who is foremost an expert on language, uses the words of G.K. Chesterton to illustrate a point about the limitations of language. Pinker's point is that language does not have words for all the varieties of emotional experience, and part of the problems we have with finding common ground in this thread is that the issues are emotional (not a bad thing!).
Chesterton:
"Man knows that there are in the soul tints more bewildering, more numberless, and more nameless than the colours of an autumn forest;...Yet he seriously believes that these things can every one of them, in all their tones and semitones, in all their blends and unions, be accurately represented by an arbitrary system of grunts and squeals. He believes that an ordinary civilized stockbroker can really produce out of his own inside noises which denote all the mysteries of memory and all the agonies of desire."
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 21, 2009 - 02:00am PT
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"It would be unwise to pave Yosemite"
It's already paved, why would it be unwise?
You pave everything else.
The world is one, not separated into paved and not paved.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 21, 2009 - 02:00am PT
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Gobee- "He who began a good work in you will perfect it in Christ Jesus".
That is exactly what Christ was doing in me that afternoon when I was twelve years old, "perfecting a good work" which began when Christ came into my life at eight years old when I cried out "Jesus please help me".
He let me know that to harbour bitterness and hate was wrong. Even though at that young age, I had thought it was the right response to such an evil person.
"I will never leave you nor forsake you". My life is a testimony to that, although I have many times wandered away from Him.
If you choose to ascribe my story to nothing more than a conditioned response, that is your choice. "An inferior emotion for those who lack the foresight to consider the implication of their actions"(to quote weschrist)!!
Well weschrist, I am certainly thankful that a loving God thought more of me than someone who at 12 yrs. "old lacked foresight" to the dangers of bitterness and hate. He warned me by striking me with guilt, although I had not a clue why at that time. That is my testimony, for which I am forever grateful. He is a loving and forgiving God.
Trip~
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 21, 2009 - 02:06am PT
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The atheist is happy and not crying out for help.
He's not a drug addicted demon or alcoholic that needs help.
Just ordinary person like us all.
All this preaching is aimed at this idea all these people are fuked up and crying for help.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 21, 2009 - 02:56am PT
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weschrist- "Why throw in terrible choices".
I only got as far as the above quote because it is late and I have other things to do. God crated the angels first, and I am sure you have heard of SATAN. I here little or no ranting or raving in regards to SATAN, of course not. That would be biting the hand that feeds so to speak, just never happens. Well obviously you believe in either so where do we go from here? Besides I type very slow, and seem to end up a question or two behind.
He created us because He wanted us to love Him foremost. There is another character in the picture, I believe he is called SATAN. Satan hates man because we were made in the image of God. We have the choice to choose our destiny, serve the god of this earth Satan, or serve Jesus Christ. Eventually, at the judgement, "Every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess, Jesus Christ as Lord". I am glad I have done so here. For then it will be to late for your eternity shall be sealed.
Would you want someone, a wife, husband, or child to have to love you, to have to follow you? Eden was perfect, much of what you, weschrist, desire and describe as the way God should have made it like here.
There is another created being weschrist, lets not leave him out of the picture. Much of the evil in the world is the result of mans own selfish desires. Simply to satisfy his own lusts/greed. Satan's desire is to be worshiped as god. His plan to do so is falling into place just as described in the Bible. One world government, economy, religion. Israel at the forefront, the temple will be rebuilt, where he will be demanded to worshipped as god.
It was prophesied thousands of years ago that Israel would return to be a nation after 1900 yrs of persecution, after being driven to the four corners of the world. That China would amass an army of 200,000,000 million men. There were not even that many people in all the world then. In the 1960's Mao TSe Tung announced, we now have the ability to amass an army of 200,000,000. And that Russia will form an alliance with Persia(Persia changed it's name to Iran in 1937), and attack Israel...read the papers, it is developing, it will happen. And many more prophesies you neglect to acknowledge because you have closed your mind to "such a myth as the Holy Bible"(to quote someone here).
What can I say, I just gave you a personal example of a loving God intervening in my life at 8 and 12 years old. You decide for yourself. Because that is what it is all about, your decision/choice, free will.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 21, 2009 - 03:05am PT
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weschrist- "Don't test me God...you will wish you hadn't".
Surely you jest weschrist. The only reason God hasn't snuffed you out is because He is long-suffering, hoping that you would turn from your evil/self indulging ways. He knows your every thought and has numbered the hairs on your head. More importantly He loves you weschrist. Every bit as much as He loves me.
Nothing under the sun is new to God.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 21, 2009 - 03:17am PT
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"Would you want someone, a wife, husband, or child to have to love you, to have to follow you?"
When I hear this kind of talk, I only consider it valid from those who don't believe anyone is thrown in hell for being an unbeliever.
Cause being faced with an eternity of torture is not a real choice.
I also don't believe the motive of creation was to create us so we could Love God. Why do such a thing and then make yourself virtually undetectable (at least on this planet) and allow religions to distort you into a petty, violent image?
I don't see the evidence for "God created man to get love from him" in any scripture.
People have been foolish to think they could butter up a divine Being with praise that wouldn't work on the most shallow bimbo. Let's hope God isn't as lame as we are
peace
karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 21, 2009 - 03:17am PT
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weschrist- "sleep=tight".
"You shall fear only the Lord your God..." Deuteronomy 6:13.
I fear only Him.
I have no fear of death. "O'death where is your victory, O'death were is your sting"?
I have met Satan, and with the power of the Holy Spirit overcame him, and you do not even come close weschrist.
I will say it again weschrist. I have no fear of death.
Trip~
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 21, 2009 - 03:26am PT
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weschrist- "they trained you well".
Who trained me?
Over the last 40+ years I have read and studied the Bible. Period. It is all there'
Is that what you felt fear? I was simply sharing prophecy with you. It is there to prove to you that it is true. Period.
You are the one attempting to cast fear out with your petty little kids games and sleep well tonight.
It is pretty obvious something struck a cord with you because you are the one reacting so bitter and sarcastic.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 21, 2009 - 03:36am PT
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Karl- "I don't believe...so we could love God".
Karl I would suggest reading the Gospels again, start with the book of John.
If you believe in some other mixture of New Age formulation, that is your choice.
You are forming an image of God as you think He should be.
It may seem like a myth, but there is a battle waging for your soul.
I would take a close look at what Jesus Christ had to say. All that I have said here is primarily said or confirmed by Him.
Peace, Trip~
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 21, 2009 - 03:47am PT
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weschrist- "How did they arrive at their convictions"?
Not through a personal relationship with a loving God.
I new little about Jesus Christ when I called on His name at eight years old. He responded and saved my life. He is a presence. He is a powerful presence of Peace. He is a Person and can reveal Himself to you, just as powerful if He chooses.
I don't know why they choose to do what they do. From what I here, they brainwash them in the madrases and a life of poverty is the only choice. Among other lies of course is the 72 virgins at a very susceptible age.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 21, 2009 - 03:49am PT
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weschrist!
Also Muslim is a religion.
Jesus Christ is a personal relationship. What I have been attempting to convey here.
EDIT: I have to be up before 6AM. Good night! And Peace.
PS: Muslims are adherents of the religion Islam. Allah being their god.
Thanks for correcting me in regards to this. I was tired and did notice and should have corrected it then. Peace.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Nov 21, 2009 - 05:53am PT
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"remember that creationism and belief in god are not the same things. 99% of Chrisitans reject creationism for the ignorant head in the sand superstition that it is."
" Jaybro, I wish that was the case, but it's much closer to 90% believing in Creationism."
According to a 2005 Pew Research Center poll, 70 percent of evangelical Christians believe that living beings have always existed in their present form, compared with 32 percent of mainline Protestants and 31 percent of Catholics.
The following evangelical denominations preach against "Darminism" from the pulpit: Assemblies of God, Evangelical Presbyterian Church, Pentecostal Churches, Southern Baptist Convention, Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, Pentecostal Oneness Churches.
These mainline Protestant sects preach against "Darwinism:" Free Methodist Church, Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod.
Non mainline/ non evangelical denominations who preach against "Darwinism": Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists.
Survey suggested 81 percent of Buddhists, 75 percent of Hindu and 77 percent Jewish accept theory of evolution.
Many Muslims accept an old earth conception (from their interpretation of Koran), but mentioning human evolution has led to near riots. In Islamic countries, your lineage is what determines your worth.
There are indications that Islamic creationism is actually stronger in Western countries, as a reaction to non-Islamic influences.
A Gallup poll claimed 39 percent Americans believe in theory of evolution 25% do not and 36 % say they don't know. And found that about 5% of scientists (including those with training outside biology) identified themselves as creationists.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 21, 2009 - 08:13am PT
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The stars are hung by nothing we've done,
it's just circus-de-God, ok!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 21, 2009 - 08:30am PT
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(upthread 777 maintained that God created the world so people would Love God)
777, I'm no stranger to scripture. I don't believe God's motives for creation are sufficiently detailed in the gospels for you to make the assertions that you have.
Personally, I feel that if people on this planet could have a clearer sense of God, God would be the highest priority and love in people's lives, for the essence of the purest Love itself would be recognized as God's own nature.
Instead, the experience of God remains somewhat esoteric while the public image of God in traditional Christianity, Islam and others paints him as a despotic dictator whose punishments make Hilter look soft hearted. There is no greater blasphemy than the sadistic interpretations of a God that demands blind acceptance and love based on a book with trillions of years of pain being the cost for failure to accept without evidence. I love to let everybody have their own views but I cry foul on that, particularly when the messengers try to spread this message of fear to promote religion worldwide.
In your heart, you know it isn't true either. That's where the battle inside your soul might be.
God may have created as an expression of God's Love but not to create servants to Love him even as his presence in this world is obscured. That's a human interpretation as our egos seek love from others.
If you give it some mature thought, I bet you'll admit that we are far more fulfilled by loving than by being Loved. For a man whose mind is confused and whose heart is not open does not even feel the Love directed at him. Look at all the miserable celebrities who are treated as gods but go to rehab. But for a person who loves those around him and expands that Love to all, the world is a paradise.
Peace
Karl
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jstan
climber
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Nov 21, 2009 - 10:32am PT
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latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-fg-climate-madagascar21-2009nov21,0,3695358.story
CHANGING CLIMATE, CHANGING LIVES
Children starve in parched southern Madagascar
As temperatures rise, drought, crop failure and deforestation have combined to create a crisis of malnutrition.
By Robyn Dixon
November 21, 2009
Reporting from Anjandobo, Madagascar
Foreigners have come to Anjandobo village, a cluster of wooden huts on the desolate red dust of southern Madagascar. They're vaza -- outsiders.The vaza are sweating. They wear hats and carry cameras and plastic bottles of water.The sun exhausts the vaza: four journalists and a group of aid workers from UNICEF and the World Food Program. Scorpions bristle under rocks. There's little shade.
A small Anjandobo child watches the vaza with their water bottles.
"I'm thirsty."
"No water," replies the child's mother.
Her younger toddler chimes in. "I want to drink water."
"No water," the mother repeats, matter-of-fact.
Madagascar's rainfall has decreased 10% in the last 50 years, and its temperature has risen 10%.
The World Bank
The spiny forest that once grew everywhere is a memory not much mourned here. It was a tangle of spectacular triffid-like trees with reaching, spiky arms, full of thorns and terrible creatures such as owls, snakes and lemurs.
Here, snakes are bad spirits that strangle children. Eyes popping, an old man named Valiotake clamps his hands on his throat, making dramatic choking noises, miming a child being attacked by a snake. He hoots loudly, mimicking the call of an owl, which heralds death. Lemurs aren't lucky either.
Valiotake, 85, is the oldest man in Anjamahavelo. He founded his village with his brother in 1971 and helped to name it "At the Lucky Baobab," after a common tree on the island. Like many people in the area, he has one name. His face is as dry and cracked as the bottom of a dry riverbed.
"I sacrificed a big fat sheep. I hoped we'd flourish and grow."The second thing, after the sacrifice, was to slash and burn every bit of greenery. It took only a day. And the wood made good houses.
Madagascar has lost 90% of its forests.
The World Wildlife Fund;
the World Bank
Sometimes people from international aid organizations come to tell the villagers that cutting down trees means less rain. Valiotake listens politely. He knows about the droughts, the crop failures. But he has no inkling of the great forces that are also baking his land to desert: global warming.
In his heart, he doesn't think it's because of cutting down the trees.
"I think the big God is unhappy.
Young people are killing each other for nothing. They don't respect the taboos. It never happened in the old days."………….
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 21, 2009 - 01:08pm PT
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way upthread Karl wrote:
Ed wrote
"As I've said before in many posts, the existence of god makes sense only as an idea... the physical properties that would be a part of the "god hypothesis" are easy to be seen as improbable to the point of impossible."
That's only if you have preconceived ideas about what God is based on ancient religions (the science wasn't better than religion back then either)
What aspects of a "God Hypothesis" do you see as essential and how do they conflict?
and then he goes on to hypothesize god himself.
The "god" hypothesis need not be very sophisticated or preconceived. I believe it starts with trying to make sense of the order which we perceive in the natural world around us, and in trying to resolve a sense of helplessness over our lives.
The order is real, there is the daily cycle, there are lunar cycles, seasonal cycles, annual cycles and a whole host of events that happen regularly and have been noticed by our ancestors, and exploited.
Things that are nearly cycles, like long term rainfall patterns are only now being understood in such a way as to allow accurate predictions to be made. Yet viewed back 10 thousand years the reason for the interruption of the cycles were understood to be due to something completely different.
It is at least a human perspective that we design order, that we make it happen through our technology, and so it is a totally plausible interpretation that the order in nature is also "designed" by something like us, only on a much grander scale. Following that line of thought, we might also interpret the interruption of order to be a willful act.
There are also the feelings that there is a "bigger truth" out there, and that we play some role in it. It gives our lives, and our deaths, meaning. This feeling is very powerful and provides motivation to survive in situations which might be lost to the feelings of despair, the feeling of hopelessness in an impersonal universe. After all, what is the point of life if there is no deeper meaning?
My feeling is that these are all ideas and feelings that we have from a young age, most spiritual beliefs are constructed to look like human relationships and human interactions between inferior and superior subjects. There is a ranking in all these realities, and we start out inferior in our knowledge of "reality," depart on a path of life and depending on our journey, end at a place which our journey is judged... did we go the right way or the wrong way?
Stripped of the spiritual overtones, it is a repeat of important human activities, a metaphor, but lifted from the simple scale of daily living to the grander scale of universal order. All the while, it stays within the boundaries of human experience.
There may even be evolutionary adaptations which require such beliefs, they may have an overall positive affect on species survival.
So my "god hypothesis" is that our mental model of how the universe works requires that some agent be at work to explain the things that aren't apparent to us. Those things could be things like: how did the universe come into existence, why are there the types of animals and plants, is there life beyond our area, why are there stars in the sky, what makes me feel the way I do about Debbie, what happens when we die, etc...
Science, while depicted as some arrogant practice, actually is a relatively humble endeavor which proceeds step-by-step, actually answering little questions. Perhaps one can level a charge of arrogance because scientists believe that they can understand things through science, but even they cannot say how, exactly, it works. They point to a list of things that do work, and say that the other things that we don't know will eventually be known, there is nothing that precludes that belief.
Feynman came upon his wonderful ideas about Quantum ElectroDynamics (QED) by wondering how to explain the motion of a dinner plate on a table, you all have seen it... a disk wobbling on its edge, is also rotating.. how do you describe the motion? Or equally, Schwinger generalizing his work on RF waveguides during his WWII days working on radar, to a theory that explains the same things that Feynman did, and Dyson looking at it all and feeling that they should be equivalent, and then showing how the mathematics is related... that they are equivalent...
And out of QED all the wonderful and terrible things of our technology. Yet they didn't start out along any of those paths.
In analogy, we start out down the path of science, but we have "rules" for deciding how to advance. First we have to have some idea of where the path will go, an explanation. The explanation must be rigorous enough to allow us to predict were the path will go. The mathematically rigorous theory. Then we test if the path actually goes there. A quantitative test through observation and experiment. We also then tell everyone about it so they can verify the prediction and the test.
My image is a bunch of people moving slowly down a path with their noses just off the ground not paying attention to the long and winding road ahead... but sometimes we look a bit farther than that.
Sometimes the path goes in a completely unexpected direction. But most people will choose that direction than to stay on a course they thought was the right one...
If is slow work, but it is work that we know produces understanding where there was none, and new ways of explaining the order that we perceive, both directly through our senses and indirectly through those instruments that extend our senses.
The modern philosophical problem of science and "spirituality" have to do with the expansion of scientific knowledge to areas which have been traditionally the domain of spiritual explanation. It is were the "battle" is joined the most fiercely.
What is the human "position" in the universe? Copernicus and Galileo ran into trouble on this one... modern cosmology demotes us even more...
What is the origin of the universe?
What is the nature of love?
What is consciousness?
and of course, Why is any of it here?
Slowly, science works down the path, now braided into many branches, answering little questions and building up a large network of paths through the wilderness presented by the order around us. And as it does that, there is less and less domain left to the spiritual.
We want there to be things that are unknown and unknowable, we fear the (probably false) idea that we ourselves may be knowable.. and cling to some need for a "higher meaning" than just mere existence, as wonderful as that is in its own right.
So we have this 3000+ post thread which comes down to this issue, essentially. Is there a deeper meaning to life, to our lives.
Science is not an enemy here, though it is so perceived to be. Science is a friend who tells us things as they are, not as we would want them to be. It is a consul of what is real, and what we reliably understand and what we do not understand.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2009 - 01:15pm PT
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ntelligent people 'less likely to believe in God'
People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God, according to a
new study.
Professor Richard Lynn, emeritus professor of psychology at Ulster University, said many more members of the "intellectual elite" considered themselves atheists than the national average.
A decline in religious observance over the last century was directly linked to a rise in average intelligence, he claimed.
But the conclusions - in a paper for the academic journal Intelligence - have been branded "simplistic" by critics.
Professor Lynn, who has provoked controversy in the past with research linking intelligence to race and sex, said university academics were less likely to believe in God than almost anyone else.
A survey of Royal Society fellows found that only 3.3 per cent believed in God - at a time when 68.5 per cent of the general UK population described themselves as believers.
A separate poll in the 90s found only seven per cent of members of the American National Academy of Sciences believed in God.
Professor Lynn said most primary school children believed in God, but as they entered adolescence - and their intelligence increased - many started to have doubts.
He told Times Higher Education magazine: "Why should fewer academics believe in God than the general population? I believe it is simply a matter of the IQ. Academics have higher IQs than the general population. Several Gallup poll studies of the general population have shown that those with higher IQs tend not to believe in God."
He said religious belief had declined across 137 developed nations in the 20th century at the same time as people became more intelligent.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2111174/Intelligent-people-'less-likely-to-believe-in-God'.html
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 21, 2009 - 01:54pm PT
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It's a fine post Ed.
Here's the thing, I have trouble defending the history of organized religion (or politics for that matter) because so much human myopia and superstition get lumped in it. I like to respect other's beliefs and in many cases it doesn't matter that what we believe is usually off. It becomes a problem when somebody uses the teaching of religion and the technology of science to kill and oppress people. Both Science and Religion have been used as tools by people wishing power.
You write
"So my "god hypothesis" is that our mental model of how the universe works requires that some agent be at work to explain the things that aren't apparent to us. Those things could be things like: how did the universe come into existence, why are there the types of animals and plants, is there life beyond our area, why are there stars in the sky, what makes me feel the way I do about Debbie, what happens when we die, etc..."
Both Religion and Science have been attempts to make us feel safer in the world, manipulate our environment and give us the comfort of knowing WTF is around us and why. Science has used more rational means for sure.
I WIll stick up for spirituality, which aim to do an inner experiment within own consciousness to experience "God" My hypothesis is validated by my own experience and I don't find that it conflicts with anything science has discovered. I didn't start with the desire to explain anything or have comfort. I had experiences that contradicted the materialist view and sought to explore them. In fact, other mystics have said for several thousand years that the world is made of energy and that time and space are relative. Science, if anything, seems to be catching up with those ancient mystics.
I'm hoping in the future, Mystics will purge the superstition that, over years, has attached itself to some teachings and that religion will do that far more even. I"m hoping science will gain subtler and subtler knowledge that will lead it to discover that underpinning the physical world are finer and finer realities as well. Plus, I'm hoping that intelligent people everywhere, especially scientists will quit whoring for power mongers who want them to create more and more powerful and harmful weapons as our ability to engineer bugs and bioweapons only gets greater and the ability to kill and assassinate with secrecy or fool with the weather, or just nuke the planet....If the people don't start saying no, we're hosed.
So both science and religion have a piss poor record of contributing hell as well has heaven to this world. We're still growing up. Let's keep our minds open
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 21, 2009 - 02:39pm PT
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So both science and religion have a piss poor record of contributing hell as well has heaven to this world.
That's not true at all.
Modern religion and modern science maybe .....
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 21, 2009 - 02:55pm PT
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For the last 500 years they've been say that.
And they have failed miserably.
And failing even more miserably today.
And for the future they are already predicting failure before it even happens.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Nov 21, 2009 - 04:24pm PT
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"Even Newton knew that and dismissed god after genesis... god was the watchmaker, and once the spring was wound everything just worked."
Pardon me, Ed, I give great attention to your posts..... but Isaac Newton was a devoutly religious man to whom philosophical and theological issues mattered in profound manner. Few historical figures have been viewed mistakenly through modern atheist bias than he. Today, there is little mainstream attention to his theological writings (which were profuse).
Wasn't the "God as watchmaker" analogy originally stated by William Paley? Newton's conceptions were somewhat in contradiction to that. And he rejected Gottfied Leibniz' thesis that God would necessarily make a perfect world which requires no intervention from the creator.
In Opticks, Query 31 Newton wrote:
"For while comets move in very eccentric orbs in all manner of positions, blind fate could never make all the planets move one and the same way in orbs concentric, some inconsiderable irregularities excepted which may have arisen from the mutual actions of comets and planets on one another, and which will be apt to increase, till this system wants a reformation."
Leibniz countered with:
"Sir Isaac Newton and his followers have also a very odd opinion concerning the work of God. According to their doctrine, God Almighty wants to wind up his watch from time to time: otherwise it would cease to move. He had not, it seems, sufficient foresight to make it a perpetual motion."
Newton did not dismiss God and he invested immense time studying original texts of biblical books. He was critical of several mistakes in the King James translation, especially those regarding trinitarianism. He was a devout believer but very critical of the Papacy and Anglican orthodoxy.
In Principia, Book 3 and Short Scheme of the True Religion he wrote:
"Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion. God governs all things and knows all that is or can be done."
"This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent Being. […] This Being governs all things, not as the soul of the world, but as Lord over all; and on account of his dominion he is wont to be called "Lord God", or "Universal Ruler". The Supreme God is a Being eternal, infinite, [and] absolutely perfect."
"Opposition to godliness is atheism in profession and idolatry in practice. Atheism is so senseless and odious to mankind that it never had many professors."
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 21, 2009 - 04:26pm PT
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"So both science and religion have a piss poor record of contributing hell as well has heaven to this world.
That's not true at all.
Modern religion and modern science maybe ....."
I suppose it depends how generous you are Werner. Science has been giving us weapons from the beginning thus making killing on grander and grander scales possible. Science has given us the technology of which poisonous pollution, resource depletion and climate change are the ultimate byproducts. We now have the power to destroy the world in one day. How long before some president loses his mind and goes Postal? Better hope there's a God to prevent it.
and Religion. Of course we have many hundreds of years of wars justified by religion with inquisitions and crusades. Tons of wisdom in the Bhagavad Gita but hey, it's a story about all these wonderful heros of God who are brothers and then kill each other to nearly the last man because of greed, pride and the result of gambling a woman away in a drunk dice game.
Caste has been abused horribly and ideas of Religion used to oppress people around the world. Sure, we can blame human misuse instead of religion itself but the two in intimately linked.
There's no getting around that we live in a challenging and pretty dark place here where sh#t happens and keeps happening. There's no proof of ANY good old days, except if you get back into mythological periods. If beyond archeological history is where you go looking for virtue, then we can expect it to return in Satya yuga. We've got plenty to figure out in the meantime
Peace
Karl
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 21, 2009 - 05:52pm PT
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perhaps, Jennie, we are guilty of projecting what we now know and justifying some of Newton's reservations. For instance, in Optick's, he has a very logical, and very wrong explanation of why light is particle, not wave, in nature.... it was his misunderstanding of the nature of light, that it is a transverse excitation not a longitudinal excitation... we respect Newton so highly that we sometimes give him a pass on the things that he got wrong in physics. Of course, his work in Optick's was, for a long time, the very defining data on the wavelength of the colors, even though he did not accept that interpretation.
In his cosmology he does not know how gravity acts, "action at a distance," for which his famous statement hypothesis non fingo is remembered I feign no hypothesis. He did not know about fields or field theory, that would wait until Faraday first and Einstein later.
Newton's explanation could certainly have hidden in the assumption of some help from a god.
And yet in spite of his deeply religious beliefs, he still got much of the science correct. Perhaps his personal motive was to know more the creator and the creator's work, but he also knew not to fool himself by false understanding, thus his utilization of the scientific method.
It is a testament to science that it doesn't care what you believe, if you do it right, you'll get the right answer... you'll be able to understand something you didn't understand, or even know about, before.
To me, Newton's religious beliefs are a historic oddity.
I have not as yet been able to discover the reason for these properties of gravity from phenomena, and I do not feign hypotheses. For whatever is not deduced from the phenomena must be called a hypothesis; and hypotheses, whether metaphysical or physical, or based on occult qualities, or mechanical, have no place in experimental philosophy. In this philosophy particular propositions are inferred from the phenomena, and afterwards rendered general by induction. I. Netwon, 1726, Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 21, 2009 - 06:07pm PT
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There seems to be very considerable disagreement as to what, if any, Newton's religious beliefs were. We can never know what he really believed, and can only in retrospect guess, based on the context of his times and life, and what he said and did. He lived at a time when it was dangerous if not fatal to not have religious beliefs, or to have non-accepted beliefs, and was a very public person. He certainly seems to have thought and wrote a great deal about religion and related matters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton#Religious_views
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton%27s_religious_views
Here is a photo of an obelisk placed in Newton's memory, erected at Stoke Rochford Hall (http://www.stokerochfordhall.co.uk/);, just south of Grantham in central England, and very near his birthplace. I was there three years ago.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 21, 2009 - 06:44pm PT
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Ed- "To me, Newtons religious beliefs, are a historic oddity".
What may be known of God can be seen, "because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them". Romans 1:19.
Not only are divine attributes clearly seen in humanity, but they can be seen in the material universe as well "since the beginning of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made..." Romans 1:20.
Nature itself speaks eloquently of its Creator. From the intricate design of the human cell to the majestic strength of the spectacular mountain ranges of the world, and the phenomenal order of the universe. All of God's works testify to His wisdom and power and divine nature. And can be clearly seen by contemplating His awesome works in all creation.
"The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His handiwork". Psalm 19:1.
Newton recognized Gods attributes, and all his scientific inquires substantiated/confirmed to the best of his abilities those beliefs.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 21, 2009 - 08:52pm PT
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whatever,
the important part, to me, is that understanding those things does not need god,
Newton didn't need god to discover his universal law of gravitation
he may have interpreted that law as the product of a creator, but he did not have to invoke anything special in his thinking of the science, the "experimental philosophy" to correctly deduce the quantitative relationship of masses.
We can go around and around on this, with no resolution in sight, but on the matter of science, and of what it can do, we need not invoke anything other than our observation and our ability to quantify it...
...I understand that that is not enough for most of you, but it is enough for me, it is all I need. My experience of the universe is no less wondrous, and I think in many respects, more wondrous.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 22, 2009 - 12:14am PT
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Newton by all accounts was genius, even by today's standards.
By the age of 26(?) he had discovered his 3 laws of Motion, Universal Law of Gravitiation, and invented Calculas to do so, and more, and he did it for his own curiousity. It wasn't until Hooke, "hooked" him into a rivals possible publishing first that he came around and then he had to re-solve his Universal Law of Gravity (he had lost his notes) and publish and then the world knew just how brilliant he really was.
Maybe he didn't have it all figured out (we still don't), but he had discovered how gravity behaves even though he didn't know what caused gravity or understand its field phenomenon. Today we still don't know exactly what gravity is, what produces it. We know it has some relationship with mass, it can alter time and space, it causes things to accelerate toward center of mass etc. Today we also have Einstein's General Relativity to describe its behavior . . .
To discount his faith and what he believed, is to reduce who he was and what his faith and what GOD meant to him. You can not seperate the man from his faith, they are one in the same. To discount or belittle his faith, is an atttempt to discount the possible divine inspiration he received to do great works and push man's understanding of the natural Universe around him. He had no problem with being a very good Scientist and a devote believer in GOD at the same time. Perhaps that is what gave him the ability to see further than everyone else. He was a truth seeker.
He had faith. He believed in GOD. He tried desperately to find the Bible Code and wasn't able to. Do you realize that at Cambridge University most of his notes focus on matters of Faith and his search for the Bible Code? They far outnumber his notes on science from what I understand. This is a recent discovery and acknowledgement.
777,
I really like your last post :-))
The Universe exclaims the Glory of GOD!
Amen.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Nov 22, 2009 - 12:17am PT
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You people are great....and entertaining!!!!
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 22, 2009 - 12:27am PT
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Klimmer -- gravity can alter time
How's that work? The clock ticks one second at a time.
And in that bible code above what are we supposed to "see" the way the squares, triangles, circles, etc are arranged?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 22, 2009 - 12:36am PT
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"The world is one, not separated into paved and not paved."
and the street of the city was pure gold, transparent as glass.
The New Heaven and the New Earth
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
The New Jerusalem
Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed— on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
And the one who spoke with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and walls. The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its width. And he measured the city with his rod, 12,000 stadia. Its length and width and height are equal. He also measured its wall, 144 cubits by human measurement, which is also an angel's measurement. The wall was built of jasper, while the city was pure gold, clear as glass. The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every kind of jewel. The first was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, the fifth onyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, the twelfth amethyst. And the twelve gates were twelve pearls, each of the gates made of a single pearl, and the street of the city was pure gold, transparent as glass.
And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.
The River of Life
Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.
Jesus Is Coming
And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place.”
“And behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 22, 2009 - 01:31am PT
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who's belittle whom...
...no doubt that Newton had a whole lot of strange stuff going on, he almost defines the beginning of science. He got a lot right, he got some stuff wrong, he was f*#king brilliant.
He was not especially a "nice guy" though he is credited with the "if I have seen further than others, it is because I stand on the shoulders of giants" it is widely interpreted as a snide british slight of the astronomer Tycho Brahe, a man of reportedly short stature... one can only imagine Sir Isaac rolling his eyes at the epi-cyclic hypothesis... by legend with the Cambridge physics set had him every much the image of one of those dons who delighted in pointing out just how wrong a rival was, over and over again... but then again I only knew this from a colleague, who knew it from Rutherford, who probably heard it from J.J. Thomson, who got it from someone that knew Maxwell, who probably heard it from Faraday...
Through to the time of Maxwell, Newton's influence on british physics was astounding... and Maxwell even feels obliged to cook up a mechanical explanation of the aether through which light could travel because of Newton's rambling thoughts in Optiks in a section other than the one Jennie quotes above... Maxwell knew what Newton did not, that light was transverse oscillation... yet it took another 50 years after the wave equation for someone to realize that no aether was necessary, at least not one like Newton conceived.
They were all religious, after a fashion, Faraday a member of a christian sect, is buried in the dissenter's section of the Highgate Cemetery. Maxwell too, was religious and had an evangelical conversion in early adulthood, he would argue against me if he could post from where he thinks he would have ended up. J.J. Thomson's religious beliefs appear not to have been notable, though my colleague remembers seeing him looking at the women's undergarment display of some department store, and thinking that J.J. couldn't possibly remember why it would be at all interesting. Rutherford's religious thoughts seem also to have escaped the notice of history.
I am not all that interested in Newton's alchemical thoughts, nor his study of the bible... and his special interest in the second coming... he seemed a bit peeved at predictions, writing:
"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, recconing twelve months to a yeare & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived [sic for “long lived”] kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060. It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons wch God hath put into his own breast."
(Newton didn't believe in the trinitarian doctrine... to which no one here has provided a response to in my previous query, quite inconsiderately).
this caused a sensation in 2003 when Newton's texts were rediscovered... http://www.isaac-newton.org/newton_2060.htm
It all goes to show the power of the scientific method, religious occultists of the caliber of Newton, born again like Maxwell, or even atheists... all of these can make progress, provide huge contributions independent of their beliefs.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 22, 2009 - 01:41am PT
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You cracked me up on that post, Ed
It was pretty damn good.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 22, 2009 - 02:16am PT
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Here’s the thing I realized about this discussion about God we’ve been having Ed. (Did you know Ed is my middle name?)
I realized I’m bound to win!
Cause here’s the thing; just as in some scientific situations, I’m sure you have the experience to see the solution is a hand before others realize it.
I’m just enough mystic and lover of my fellow man to see there is no hope for you in this. (I’m only channeling Lois a bit here)
Some people’s great intellect can shield them from the holistic experience of themselves which is Spirituality. Our Spirituality is always our relationship to ourselves. State of belief is relatively immaterial. We all live in ourselves.
Spirit is unconditional.
I see you being awake to the Light and Presence of your own Being. It’s sort of like the way playboys can spot lack of virginity. I Remember that the Eddie that argues against God online is the very embodiment of Light and Sainthood in real life! I have zero doubt that Eddie is a deeply spiritual person, whether you have an intellectual place for that or not, because I see you BEING it.
You feel the presence of your Eternal Being within you and you commune with others on that level. I see you Ed!! You must be aware of this on some level. Doesn’t matter what you think about it. Someday you will realize it transcends material bounds.
Perhaps your own inner compass with our Source will choose to open to it in the mountains, or with a special person, at the time when its your REAL discovery and not some preaching coming home to roost.
But you are already inexorably Real, Ed, and it is only by turning away from yourSelf that you could ever fail not to some day come face to “face” with the Timeless Being that you are. You are more than synaptic firing in a meat soup! You are Love itself Bro. I think you feel that deep within. A fantastic expanding soup of realization and Love exploring itself on this planet and yet limiting itself for it’s own devices.
But see for yourself. I’ve already won and good for you too!
But, for those of you who like experiments... Let’s see how this works. Choose some kind of unlikely symbol, like a red elephant, and voice it to the universe in private but aloud. This is the symbol of our developing communication. Give it time. Be open. Maybe something happens. Be critical and scientific. ? The world is far more fluid than it seems.
Peace and Love You always
Karl
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 22, 2009 - 02:29am PT
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Klimmer -- gravity can alter time
How's that work? The clock ticks one second at a time.
And in that bible code above what are we supposed to "see" the way the squares, triangles, circles, etc are arranged?
WB,
We had a serious discussion on this with Ed et al., posting all about this. At this time I can't remember the title of that post, but if you search for Einstein, Special Relativity, and General Relativity on ST you are sure to find it. I recall it was Largo who got it going.
Or Ed can do a quick explaination (I'm coping out, I'm too tired, its a long explaination, and its late - lol).
The Bible Code above is a page from Michael Drosnin's famous bestselling book "Bible Code," and it is showing pages from the OT Bible, the Hebrew Torah. Remove the spaces between letters and do equal space letter searches and you will find codes hidden within the inspired word of God, the Bible. If you watch the videos on Bible Code it goes into what it means and the significance.
Worth posting these videos again because they are sooo goooooood:
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code:
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 1 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blbLke9kLIk&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=0&playnext=1
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 2 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwMM3-UfuQo&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=1
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 3 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHuEG4nDR0Q&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=2
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 4 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIadU4uz7m8&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=3
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 5 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C53YCyAqGU&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=4
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 6 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coHmbONyiHU&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=5
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 7 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIWRjt23tI4&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=6
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 8 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km8y10KG-TQ&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=7
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 9 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RLPhL34RYs&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=8
ITS A MIRACLE AND I CAN'T EXPLAIN IT.
All I can say is . . .
GOD IS.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 22, 2009 - 02:30am PT
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thanks Karl, but you haven't been listening... all this spiritual stuff, god, religion, The Way, The Path, nirvana, Sanātana Dharm, whatever... it is all a part of us, a part of us. The way we think, the way we perceive the universe around us... there is universalism because we think alike, it is the legacy of billions of years of evolution, it is shaped by all that came before...
...of course, it isn't truly universal since we have trouble conceiving that our close animal kin might share some of this, and we completely flip when even more distant cousins might show signs of what makes us us... (maybe it's them that flip...)
These things we think are amazing and powerful and transformative... and alot of it, perhaps most of the stuff that doesn't actually help us survive and some that does, is just not real.
We can think anything we want... but there is reality out there, and in here... and we're apart of it, but what happens between our ears, well, what happens in las cerebro stays in las cerebro... some of it just will never be anything but thought.
All these things are forms of self absorption...
...I happy to participate, really... but my bumper sticker keeps me grounded: DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU THINK
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 22, 2009 - 02:33am PT
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OK then, I won't believe everything you think.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 22, 2009 - 05:14am PT
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Ed wrote
...I happy to participate, really... but my bumper sticker keeps me grounded: DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU THINK"
I'm glad we can agree 100% on that.
Since I don't believe what you think has much bearing regarding the spiritual connection that I'm convinced I see in you, I'm happy for us to share a critical view of our minds limitations.
Still, you are a scientist. Try my experiment and make up your experimental conditions so you can't delude yourself. Be as open as any genuine and sincere inquiry, but without prejudice.
I'd be the first to agree that we are all prone to self reflected delusions and assumptions.
Just suggesting the only way to experiment on the level we're talking about is within.
My guess is that the Universe puts your version of a Red Elephant in your lap in some way that's way beyond your control and intent. Unless, that would scare you, cause we retain the right to our illusions.
peace
Karl
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 22, 2009 - 09:00am PT
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I go away for two days and this thread catches fire! Great job Ed and Karl! It's hard to know what else to say after all that.
I would however, like to make a correction to one of my earlier statements since three different people objected to it. It seems that my 4 am contribution on science wasn't as clear to other people the next day as it seemed to me at the time.
I did not mean to say that all of science was a belief system just like a religion. What I meant to say was that once a scientist crosses over from agnosticism to atheism then he or she is presenting their own personal belief system since science itself must be agnostic on the question. As for science and religion from the science point of view, it seems the only answer can be cultural pluralism. From the religious or spiritual point of view, one can choose either cultural pluralism or syncretism.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 22, 2009 - 09:01am PT
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As for science being a methodology as jstan defines it, I think the same can be said for the eastern methods of meditation, particularly those of the Indian and Tibetan schools of meditation yoga where progress can be measured by definite physiological events in both body and brain. The timing of these events is individualized (the result of one's own karma?), but the sequence seems to take place in a certain universal order.
I am currently reading a fascinating book called Fingerprints of God: the search for the Science of Spirituality. I started with Ramachandran's, The Emerging Mind, and continued on from there. Written by a non sectarian believer in spirituality, Fingerprints of God discusses the latest research in this field at the various laboratories where it is done.
Even so, not one of these researchers has even looked at the chakra system, the kundalini system, or the physiological mechanism behind seeing the thousand petaled lotus, all well known and well described physical experiences based on meditation.
There is a long ways to go to understand the physical phenomena behind mystical experiences, let alone interpret their significance to science and the material world. Lacking any scientific knowledge on the subject, I go with the simplest explanation currently available - that they reflect a not yet discovered consciousness within the human mind and body, just as the yogis have taught for the past 4,000 years. It is my experience and belief, that they also reflect a universal consciousness.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 22, 2009 - 09:15am PT
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When Frank and I did Europe, we did it in a very sequential order intellectually speaking, with Sir Isaac Newton holding a special position.
First we visited Greece, then Rome, then France and Germany, including three full 8 hour days at the Deutsche Science Museum. We watched the first moon landing on a television at the USIS center in Geneva on our way to England where one of the highlights was our visit to Westminster Abbey where we of course visited the tomb of Sir Isaac Newton.
Particularly moving, as it seemed the perfect ending to our 8 month intellectual journey, was a large floral decoration on the grave from an American school group with the message, "To Sir Isaac Newton, The Eagle Has Landed."
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 22, 2009 - 09:45am PT
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“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;
they will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment,
like a robe you will roll them up,
like a garment they will be changed.
But you are the same,
and your years will have no end.”
Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
For when God made a promise to Abraham, since he had no one greater by whom to swear, he swore by himself, saying, “Surely I will bless you and multiply you.” And thus Abraham, having patiently waited, obtained the promise. For people swear by something greater than themselves, and in all their disputes an oath is final for confirmation. So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath, so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more.”
Thru the Bible - Sunday Sermon - Dr. J. Vernon McGee
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/thru_the_bible_sunday_sermon/Archives.asp
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 22, 2009 - 10:14am PT
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Six o' clock
In the morning, I feel pretty good
So I dropped into the luxury of the Lords
Fighting dragons and crossing swords
With the people against the hordes
Who came to conquer.
Seven o'clock
In the morning, here it comes
I taste the warning and I am so amazed
I'm here today, seeing things so clear this way
In the car and on my way
To Stonehenge.
I'm flying in Winchester cathedral
Sunlight pouring through the break of day.
Stumbled through the door and into the chamber;
There's a lady setting flowers on a table covered lace
And a cleaner in the distance finds a cobweb on a face
And a feeling deep inside of me tells me
This can't be the place
I'm flying in Winchester cathedral.
All religion has to have its day
Expressions on the face of the Saviour
Made me say
I can't stay.
Open up the gates of the church and let me out of here!
Too many people have lied in the name of Christ
For anyone to heed the call.
So many people have died in the name of Christ
That I can't believe it all.
And now I'm standing on the grave of a soldier that died in 1799
And the day he died it was a birthday
And I noticed it was mine.
And my head didn't know just who I was
And I went spinning back in time.
And I am high upon the altar
High upon the altar, high.
I'm flying in Winchester cathedral,
It's hard enough to drink the wine.
The air inside just hangs in delusion,
But given time,
I'll be fine.
"Cathedral" Graham Nash
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2009 - 10:46am PT
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NO COMMUNION FOR YOU!!
PROVIDENCE, R.I. — Roman Catholic Bishop Thomas Tobin has banned Rep. Patrick Kennedy from receiving Communion, the central sacrament of the church, in Rhode Island because of the congressman's support for abortion rights, Kennedy said in a newspaper interview published Sunday.
The decision by the outspoken prelate, reported on The Providence Journal's Web site, significantly escalates a bitter dispute between Tobin, an ultra orthodox bishop, and Kennedy, a son of the nation's most famous Roman Catholic family.
"The bishop instructed me not to take Communion and said that he has instructed the diocesan priests not to give me Communion," Kennedy told the paper in an interview conducted Friday.
Kennedy said the bishop had explained the penalty by telling him "that I am not a good practicing Catholic because of the positions that I've taken as a public official," particularly on abortion.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 22, 2009 - 10:55am PT
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 22, 2009 - 11:05am PT
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The man who speculates forgets that he himself is subject to the four defects of nature:
He is sure to commit mistakes.
His senses are imperfect.
He is sure to fall into illusion.
And he is cheating.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 22, 2009 - 11:40am PT
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I'm sorry to hear that the Catholic Bishop is treating RFK Jr. this way.
Who really advocates abortion? C'mon who really does? Isn't it really and shouldn't it be only used as a last means method for rape, and health reason's, or extreme situations that only the mother can understand?
If a woman is violently raped by a stranger and becomes pregnant, do you really think it is a good idea to go through with the pregnancy? Is that the child she chose with the man she loves?
Find out about how GOD felt about offspring between Angels and Man, Nepahlim, through the book of Enoch and the book of Genesis, he wipes them out with extreme prejudice. They were an abomination that wasn't supposed to ever happen. Nephalim were the worst of Angels and the worst of Mankind together. It got to the point where they were eating the flesh of mankind, they were so bad. Read the book of Enoch.
Would anyone argue that Nephalim were not living and life? They have no chance for salvation (as far as I know) and will meet a severe punishment on the Judgement Day. I don't understand it all just relating what the book of Enoch says and shows clearly.
I enjoyed the link Ed gave regarding Newton and his last days prediction, very interesting:
http://www.isaac-newton.org/newton_2060.htm
A really great resource regarding this also (I show this film to my students when we go through a quick history of Physics; we get into their personalities a bit, always fun to do):
Newton's Dark Secrets:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/newton/
The video: NOVA Newton's Dark Secrets
http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category/technology/watch/v16152020fKgnRxEz#
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 22, 2009 - 12:08pm PT
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Klimmer, do you tell your students that Schrodinger's brilliant insight into the wave mechanics likely happened in Arosa where he spent the 1925 Christmas holiday with a girlfriend (he was married at the time and had three other lovers) of which is written "whoever may have been his inspiration, the increase in Erwin's powers were dramatic, and he began a twelve month period of sustained creative activity that is without a parallel in the history of science." (Walter Moore, Schrodinger, Life and Thought p 195, Cambridge U. Press © 1988),'
oh, and he was a believer... at least when seducing girls... (see p. 224) "He talked to her about religion: 'I believe more in God the Father with the white beard than I believe in Nothing.'"
it took a couple of years (she was 15 when they first met, he tutored her in mathematics) "... but not long after her seventeenth birthday, they became lovers."
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jstan
climber
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Nov 22, 2009 - 12:33pm PT
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"PROVIDENCE, R.I. — Roman Catholic Bishop Thomas Tobin has banned Rep. Patrick Kennedy
from receiving Communion, the central sacrament of the church, in Rhode Island because of the
congressman's support for abortion rights, Kennedy said in a newspaper interview published
Sunday.
The decision by the outspoken prelate, reported on The Providence Journal's Web site,
significantly escalates a bitter dispute between Tobin, an ultra orthodox bishop, and Kennedy, a
son of the nation's most famous Roman Catholic family.
"The bishop instructed me not to take Communion and said that he has instructed the diocesan
priests not to give me Communion," Kennedy told the paper in an interview conducted Friday."
End of excerpt.
'Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. Render unto me what is mine sayeth the lord.'
How is it that a tax-exempt religious organization can lobby the government in an attempt to
cause to be withdrawn a completely legal right of citizenship? The Supreme court has ruled on
abortion.
How can the tax exempt status be retained?
Simple.
By violating the laws. By not rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 22, 2009 - 12:49pm PT
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Ed,
I don't talk about things I know nothing of. Didn't know all of that. And if I did know that I wouldn't probably mention it to the students (lol). . .
Although, a film my students see "NOVA: Einstein Revealed" they get to see the "playboy" himself at Princeton. Einstein had the same issues with young women students coming over for "study" sessions.
Well, if he truly was a believer and acting that way, he was deluding himself at the time.
Many great men of GOD (Samson, King David etc.) are brought down by the "Kryptonite" of beautiful women. I can understand it. We are all human and without blame.
As the good book says, hey even the Angels of GOD, the Sons of God couldn't resist . . .
Gen.6:2-4 (KJV)
[2] That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
[4] There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
We know he makes women beautiful and he makes them very desirable and the act itself is pretty fun and feels good. It is "Kryptonite" I tell you. Resist. Resist if you can. Marry and stay faithful to your wife, and wives stay faithful to your husbands.
When misstakes happen remember forgiveness 70 X 7!!!
This is a hard one . . . brought down many a good man and woman . . .
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 22, 2009 - 12:56pm PT
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I suspected you wouldn't talk about that because it doesn't support your point-of-view on these things...
...you are aware that divine inspiration isn't the only form of inspiration...
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 22, 2009 - 01:02pm PT
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Christian priests say that God is unlimited.
Why the unlimited God should have only one son and not unlimited sons, they are unable to answer.
When Darwin's theory was first being taught in America, there was opposition from the Christians, and there was a famous court trial called the Scopes case, and the Bible was used against this so-called scientific theory.
But the Bible is so inadequate that they lost.
Bible could not be used because it is itself unscientific.
The lawyer proved that the Bible could not disprove the Darwin's theory.
They say that everything in bible has a hidden meaning. So the literal meaning is not true literally, it has a hidden meaning which is true.
And nobody has disclosed that hidden meaning.
Is this why: Creationists Take Another Called Strike - and run to dugout
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Nov 22, 2009 - 01:14pm PT
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Religious Bureaucracy destroys initiative.
There is little that bureaucrats hate more than innovation,
especially innovation that produces better results
than the old routines.
Improvements always make those at the top
of the heap look inept. Who enjoys appearing inept?
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MH2
climber
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Nov 22, 2009 - 04:58pm PT
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The wheel grinds slow and not that fine, but it does grind; returning to expand on an earlier post.
Even the statement the earth orbits the sun has limits. As a result of fairly well understood mechanical processes the motions of all the celestial bodies are changing. It will take awhile, the sun may have already burned out, or we may collide with another galaxy, but everything is changing. (jstan)
***
Any star regularly passes, or is passed by, other stars. Eventually, every star must approach so close to another star that the orbits of its planets (and the other star's planets, if any) are disrupted. Ultimately, all stars must tend to lose their planets to interstellar space.
If the diameter of the outer planet's orbit is about 200 million kilometers and if the star moves through the galaxy at about 50 kilometers per second, then there ought to be a close approach about every quadrillion years. As a guess, it may take several dozen such approaches to knock all the planets out of orbit. This would occur by 10^16 or 10^17 years.
A similar but slower process applies to galaxies.
*
from The Recursive Universe (cosmic complexity and the limits of scientific knowledge)
by William Poundstone
1985, Contemporary Books
Stars do burn out and the hydrogen that fuels them gets slowly used up. How long can we expect a universe that has stars in it? I find 100 trillion years as an order-of-magnitude estimate. Compare that to the mere 10 billion years (again approximate) that this universe has existed. We are not the skin of paint on top of the Eiffel Tower. We are probably in the layer of corrosion at its base.
So even though we may not resolve important questions there are not only a lot of other stars (as previously mentioned) there is a lot of time left for someone or something to get it right.
Looking a little further ahead, I see that proton decay is still hypothetical and experiment has placed a lower limit a bit above 10^33 years on the half-life.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2009 - 05:47pm PT
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Darwinian evolution is a FACT.
Creationism is a THEORY.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 22, 2009 - 05:50pm PT
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What on earth makes you believe THAT?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2009 - 06:10pm PT
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well, Chaz, the Tooth Fairy and Santa are also "theories", right?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 22, 2009 - 06:14pm PT
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I figured you'd admit your beliefs are baesd on faith and nothing more, and I was right.
No different from fundamentalist Christians basing their beliefs on faith.
All you can do to prove you're right is point at a book somebody wrote, just as the fundamentalist Christians do.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2009 - 06:25pm PT
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Chaz, seriously, do you really believe god created the earth in six days?
You have read Genesis.........
Are you a Creationist, Chaz? You buy in to the Genesis "theory"?
Or do you think it is "fact"?
How old is El Cap? The Grand Canyon? Under 6000 years old,Chaz?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 22, 2009 - 06:31pm PT
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And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
The Parable of the Sower
Again he began to teach beside the sea. And a very large crowd gathered about him, so that he got into a boat and sat in it on the sea, and the whole crowd was beside the sea on the land. And he was teaching them many things in parables, and in his teaching he said to them: “Listen! A sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it. Other seed fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil, and immediately it sprang up, since it had no depth of soil. And when the sun rose, it was scorched, and since it had no root, it withered away. Other seed fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no grain. And other seeds fell into good soil and produced grain, growing up and increasing and yielding thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold.” And he said, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
The Purpose of the Parables
And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, so that
“they may indeed see but not perceive,
and may indeed hear but not understand,
lest they should turn and be forgiven.”
And he said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? The sower sows the word. And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them. And these are the ones sown on rocky ground: the ones who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy. And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away. And others are the ones sown among thorns. They are those who hear the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. But those that were sown on the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold.”
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 22, 2009 - 06:31pm PT
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How the hell should I know, Norton?
But I'm not so arrogant to run around pronouncing something not proven as "fact".
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jstan
climber
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Nov 22, 2009 - 06:45pm PT
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If you go to the dictionary and look up "theory" you will find more than five meanings drawn so
broadly this discussion is rendered pointless.
No help there. So, if you will, allow me to advance what I think is a good common usage for the
word.
Theory: A hypothetical model allowing the relationships between observable quantities in the
material world to be predicted. Application of the scientific method and the addition of new and
better observations necessarily causes theories to be subject to continual improvement.
Darwinian Evolution is a theory that has readily survived more than 100 years of rigorous testing.
Creationism, provides no insight as the the relationships between observable quantities and by the
above definition is therefore not a theory.
Since it provides no insight as to the state of observables there is no known way for creationism to be tested.
Not being a scholar of middle eastern documents and a student of things Aramaic I have little to
add to a discussion of the creation of the world in "6 days." To understand this better, it would
seem we would need comprehensive access to and study of archeological artifacts relating to
both the first source for this idea and expertise in all the translations active in bringing this
phrase to us.
Over the past sixty years the data has now achieved sufficient precision to persuade many that
the formation of what we now take to be the entire known universe took place just under
14,000,000,000 earth years ago. The earth year is taken to be the length of time the earth today
takes to complete one circumnavigation of its star, the sun.
Edit:
Wes:
By the definition I have offered, this is true. I would also point out that something entirely devoid
of relationship with observables in the material world can't have any impact upon the material
world. It can have impacts upon the function of highly complex neural networks such as those
found between our ears. But it can not help us find food, water, and shelter in the world where
we find ourselves, alone.
And I think this is where the nexus of the debate on faith resides. If we have a group of many neural nets all interacting and depending upon one another, what resides in one neural net can affect these interactions. Were you to be lashed to a stake with firewood all around and an interlocutor carrying a torch were to ask you, "DO YOU BELIEVE IN SANTA CLAUS?" the idea of Santa Claus could become relevant to your material suvival.
History tells us this.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2009 - 06:48pm PT
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Yeah, Charles Darwin was an arrogant, ignorant fool.
Evolution should not be taught in school because it is just a "theory".
Santa, the Tooth Fairy, and God have all been proven beyond doubt.
Believe what you want.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 22, 2009 - 06:49pm PT
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You and the world you are standing on is proof of God!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2009 - 06:57pm PT
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And Santa is coming down your chimney in a few days......
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 22, 2009 - 06:57pm PT
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The famed atheist Antony Flew, argued and lectured around the world that science disproved God but the more he considered the complexity of the creation the more he came to see the necessity of an Intelligent Designer.
He rocked the atheistic world whom had considered him as a hero and champion of their cause.
What has happened is what he says has happened, he has gone where the evidence leads.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2009 - 07:05pm PT
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2009 - 07:10pm PT
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 22, 2009 - 07:12pm PT
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Poor Darwin can't even get any respect in his homeland.
Rare Charles Darwin book found on toilet bookshelf
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091122/ap_on_en_ot/eu_britain_darwin;_ylt=Amb9q_bdvWCbMleKClHSvnSs0NUE
Sun Nov 22, 10:31 am ET
LONDON – An auction house says it is selling a rare first edition of Charles Darwin's "On the Origin of Species" found in a family's guest lavatory in southern England.
Christie's auction house said Sunday the book — one of around 1,250 copies first printed in 1859 — had been on a toilet bookshelf at a family's home in Oxford.
The book will be auctioned on Tuesday, the 150th anniversary of the publication of the famous work. Christie's said the book is likely to sell for 60,000 pounds ($99,000).
Darwin's "The Origin of Species" outlined his theory of natural selection, the foundation for the modern understanding of evolution.
Celebrations around the world this year have marked the 200th anniversary of Darwin's birth.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 22, 2009 - 07:18pm PT
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The naturalistic theory of evolution will be smashed .....
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 22, 2009 - 07:24pm PT
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This shows the intelligence of the reader/owner.
A so called highly respected book is taken to the sh'iter and left there.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 22, 2009 - 07:25pm PT
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I have to admit that's a pretty good zinger.
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jstan
climber
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Nov 22, 2009 - 07:40pm PT
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Now if the book were found next to a Sears catalog missing half of its glossy pages,
it is quite another story.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 22, 2009 - 07:47pm PT
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"A book like that should bring nothing at auction"
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2009 - 08:27pm PT
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How old is the earth, Gobbee?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
Will know soon
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Nov 22, 2009 - 08:45pm PT
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Hey Wes, Just dropping in. This Thread is way too numerically challenging for me to follow. But thought I'd see what happenin' tonight.
I think there are two things at play here. The abstract "God" and the "friend jesus" I know. It seems the wide divide keeps people on either side of the "Grand Canyon" of knowing God.
I always enjoy everyones posts. They make me think and redefine why I believe what I do. But for lynnie bottom line is when you meet someone that forever changes your life and, unlike people, keeps their word and never lets you down....well, I'm "down" with my Dude, jesus. :D
Peace and Joy and Happy soon to be Thanksgiving.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2009 - 08:47pm PT
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My motorcycle is in the Bible:
"And the sound of Joshua's Norton was heard throughout the land."
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 22, 2009 - 08:56pm PT
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Robb
Social climber
The Greeley Triangle
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Nov 22, 2009 - 09:00pm PT
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Hey Norton,
How's your back doing man?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2009 - 10:18pm PT
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GOBBEE, HOW OLD IS THE EARTH?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2009 - 10:23pm PT
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Hi Rob,
Well, I am now wearing about half time a TENS Unit, which as you probably
know, sends different electrical impulses through four electrodes stuck
to my lower back, and thus does a fair job of blocking the pain to the brain
Also, I take nerve pills to retard the firing of the nerve endings.
The disc degeneration continues, squeezing the nerves in the spinal cord.
Next stop is an MRI, and then maybe a shot of some steroid in there.
The sooner the better.
Got any ideas, Rob?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2009 - 10:25pm PT
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Gobbee: HOW OLD IS HALF DOME?
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Nov 22, 2009 - 10:26pm PT
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I heard somewhere that there is a 'God Part' of
the brain. The effect is its very easy
to introduce religion to people.
Theorized as an evolutionary development necessary
for civilizations to develop.
Could be.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 22, 2009 - 10:28pm PT
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That's it talking out of yer asses again.
Just showing pictures and cartoons means you know nothing.
You've been smashed by the mighty hammer of .........
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 22, 2009 - 11:05pm PT
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Not talking about Gobee's pictures.
Millions of years have gone by for the age of the earth.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 22, 2009 - 11:43pm PT
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"GOBBEE, HOW OLD IS THE EARTH?"
I believe what the Bible says, but I don't know!
But God made it in six days!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2009 - 11:45pm PT
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That's what I thought you would say. The blind leading the blind.
Read my bedtime story here, Gobbee.
Sleep peacefully sweet naive little prince, tuck yourself in good!
The serpent tells the woman that she will not die if she eats the fruit of the tree: "When you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God,[9] knowing good and evil." So the woman eats and gives to the man who also eats. "Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves aprons." God curses the serpent: "upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life;" the woman he punishes with pain in childbirth and with subordination to man: "your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you;" and the man he punishes with a life of toil: "In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground." The man names his wife Eve,[10] "because she was the mother of all living". "Behold", says God, "the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil," and expels the couple from Eden, "lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever." The gate of Eden is sealed by a cherub and a flaming sword "to guard the way to the tree of life."[11]
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 22, 2009 - 11:50pm PT
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Don't spill your drink!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 23, 2009 - 12:10am PT
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"And you and Werner make sure you are home before dark, it's scary out there."
I know your right!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2009 - 12:15am PT
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Right back at cha, Gobbee! After all, humans and dinosaurs lived together!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 23, 2009 - 12:27am PT
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The Honeymooners
[Ralph puts Norton on notice that their friendship is suspended for the duration of the CREATIONISTS competition]
Ralph: From here on in, we are deadly enemies. I don't want to talk to you, I don't want to see you, I don't want to have nothing to do with you. If you see me coming down the street, get on the other side.
Norton: When you come down the street, there AIN'T no other side!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 23, 2009 - 12:29am PT
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Norton,
The Bible doesn't say that. The Bible even mentions dinosaurs. What animal can have a tail, the size of a Cedar tree?
Good article for showing that dinosaurs are indeed mentioned in the Bible. However, I do not agree with the age the article indicates. Dinosaurs are as old as Radiometric dating indicates in Paleontology.
http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/dinos.shtml
And the demise of dinosaurs 65 Million years ago by an asteroid impact with Earth is also mentioned in Bible Code. I'll have to scan the page from Micheal Drosnin's book Bible Code showing it in the Torah . . .
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
Will know soon
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Nov 23, 2009 - 12:34am PT
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Can someone remind me again why the number of years is important ???? :DD
Peace always, lynnie
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 23, 2009 - 12:39am PT
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lynnie for you it's not so important. You love Jesus like a child loves it's father and mother.
The parents age have no real interest to the pure love of a child.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
Will know soon
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Nov 23, 2009 - 12:49am PT
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Werner, think you're spot on. I do love jesus and I admit I have never been very good with numbers. I love and care for people tho. Hope that makes up for some of my number deficit disorder. :D
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MH2
climber
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Nov 23, 2009 - 01:35am PT
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Lynne, if you treat other folk decently you have nothing to apologize for, whatever your motive, whatever your worldly accomplishments or deficiencies.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 23, 2009 - 02:02am PT
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Werner probably has it right, Lynne, it depends on how you read the bible otherwise.
There is excellent physical evidence dating the universe, and the earth. The earth is 4.5 billion years old, the universe is something like 13.73 billion years. We can get into the details of how we obtain these numbers, they are based on very well established set of observations and are consistent with our understanding of cosmology.
If you take the account of creation in Genesis literally, then the universe was created around 4000 BC, thus the universe is something like 6009 years old.
These two numbers 6009 and 12.73 billion are a very different, and it would be hard to reconcile them.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 23, 2009 - 02:10am PT
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"I know your right!" anyone notice the grammatical error in this sentence?
Credibility?
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Nov 23, 2009 - 02:15am PT
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In Woody Allen's Crimes and Misdemeanors (1989) the uncle asks Judah’s father, “And if all your faith is wrong, Saul, I mean just what if?” The father answers, “Then I’ll still have a better life than all those that doubt.” The aunt asks, “Do you mean that you prefer God to the truth?” The father responds, “If necessary I will always choose God over truth.”
Maybe it's not a conscious choice for everyone, but that is really it: people choosing god over intellectual honesty.
(edit) It is your right to be wrong even though you're thinking you're right, but yer still wrong.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Nov 23, 2009 - 09:19am PT
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Darwinian evolution is a FACT.
Creationism is a THEORY.
Norton, agree with everything you've said so far, but this is a little off. Evolution is still a scientific theory, one supported by a mountain of evidence. Many do call it a fact based on that mountain. Creationism might best be described as a notion or possibly a hypothesis. It is not a theory in the scientific sense. Creationists like to say evolution is "only a theory", but they are referring to the common usage of the word theory as in, "I have a theory why I can't get a decent girlfriend." In this sense the word is simply a notion unsupported by scientifc evidence or facts (although the loner in the example may have good ancedotal evidence). I'm guessing that is the usage you are referring to as well, except that you are applying it to creationism. Ironic that creationists will say "evolution is just a theory", but then they go on to cry, "Why doesn't my ID Theory get any respect?!"
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Nov 23, 2009 - 09:25am PT
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science has its theories.
religion has its myths.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Nov 23, 2009 - 10:01am PT
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science has its theories.
religion has its myths.
Science is myth-understood.
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Robb
Social climber
The Greeley Triangle
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Nov 23, 2009 - 10:31am PT
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Hey Norton sorry to hear that about your discs.You might try looking up Weenis & email him. I know that he had a state of the art procedure done in Europe not to long ago, and I believe he got excellent results.Good luck w/ things & keep us posted.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2009 - 10:32am PT
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thanks, Robb
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 23, 2009 - 10:47am PT
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“Yet a little while,
and the coming one will come and will not delay;
but my righteous one shall live by faith,
and if he shrinks back,
my soul has no pleasure in him.”
By Faith
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the people of old received their commendation.
By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.
A Kingdom That Cannot Be Shaken
For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.” Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.” But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven. At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.” This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made—in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, for our God is a consuming fire.
Let brotherly love continue. Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. Remember those who are in prison, as though in prison with them, and those who are mistreated, since you also are in the body. Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous. Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.” So we can confidently say,
“The Lord is my helper;
I will not fear;
what can man do to me?”
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in us that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 23, 2009 - 12:52pm PT
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Dr F -- "about a God that is vengeful, and unfair, un logical, un reasonable,"
And where do you get this information.
From books, theorists and mental speculators who've changed their views and observations a thousand times over.
You're blowing man. You're as bad as the guys you're try to debunk.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 23, 2009 - 01:01pm PT
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You've been smashed by the mighty hammer of .........
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 23, 2009 - 01:05pm PT
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Jesus Christ was not God himself, so God was never smashed.
Fet you've been smashed ....
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 23, 2009 - 01:19pm PT
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Looks like you suffered another hard blow Dr F on the battlefield.
Lick your wounds and whining won't help you.
A Brahman will step down from that platform to Ksatriya to fight.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 23, 2009 - 01:22pm PT
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Most people only want a warm fuzzy, ice in their watered down Christian Bible.
God is awesome, and I try to take the Bible, the way it says, not how I think it should be, but I do need reading glasses!
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Nov 23, 2009 - 01:31pm PT
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Dr. F.,Gobee, TripL7
This leaf predates the ice age noted by past records.
It's still living today. Past records note it survived the ice age as did homo sapiens.
A common name within the genus and species is Maiden Hair.
Pg.3 Jesus, pg.4 Fake, Fraud, Forgery?
Was skiing or still is?
Books LTD., ISBN 0-7621-0625-5
Further reference pages 230,231,232 and 233.
Btw, evolution is fact and theory.
Noted by a Irish great grand mother,
Master,
BES.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2009 - 01:35pm PT
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And I am sure there are millions who see Jesus in that leaf.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 23, 2009 - 01:39pm PT
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Still licking your hurt wounds Dr F.
Whining won't help you.
Get up and fight ....
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4damages
climber
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Nov 23, 2009 - 01:45pm PT
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Norton,
I am not one who sees that.
Dr F.,
Pg.4 with the English Bio Chemist noting fraud may
differ here in the state of CA. I would like to know
what conclusion you have with Jesus after reading the
previous IEEE links and comparing the book under the
Maiden Hair.
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jstan
climber
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Nov 23, 2009 - 01:59pm PT
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In the 50's when I was in Jr High I wondered whether I could build a cyclotron. The machine shop I had access to could not handle twenty ton pieces of steel, and I knew that. But coming out of WWII, when for all we knew our adversaries might have dropped one of these devices on us, I was fascinated with nuclear technology. Now as it turned out neither opponent was close to building a device and the technology has had some fairly sizable negatives to go with the positives.
The truth is, nothing can be better than the people who are making it happen. In the material world we see arguments, much like those that take place in the technical fields, continuing to treat momentus decisions made in the past. Should Truman have dropped the bomb? Do the negatives of nuclear power along with the positives of sustainable power mitigate against commercial nuclear power generation? These arguments give me a lot of hope. We might even find our way to better decisions.
Now I have no problem with people "believing" what they will. But even while busy "believing",momentus decisions affecting everyone, both believers and non-believers, are being made. I don't hear believers arguing that separation of church and state should be maintained. I don't hear arguments that the tax free status of churches really do mean those organizations cannot organize for political candidates. Individuals have every right to do so, indeed a duty. But church funds must not support such activity.
I don't hear any of these arguments.
That's the nub of my problem. And it is a very big problem.
This absence of discussion among the "faithful" has frequently occurred in history
and the results have been tragic.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 23, 2009 - 02:29pm PT
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Fet you've been smashed ....
Defineatly; beer, wine, vodka, tequila it's all good.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 23, 2009 - 02:32pm PT
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I try to take the Bible, the way it says, not how I think it should be
Anything you read is up for interpretation. The Bible, a book thousands of years old, tranlated and retranslated, with strange and arcane writing and references is even more unclear and up for interpretation. You have to take responsibility for what you think it says.
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Nov 23, 2009 - 03:38pm PT
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Dr. F.,
that is not the conclusion I was looking for.
The last paragraph of pg.233 may give a hint. Otherwise
the discrepancies noted within don't necessarily seem to
contradict the sciences when also comparing the carbon
dating noted in my 1998 Archeology book along with the
IEEE test.
It appears you were asking further about age and predating
of the leaves. It's very doubtful fossil matter can be carbon
dated, though sedimentary layers can also give clues. In one
of major classes in CS it was noted about the finite time left
for our sun. The physics used to calc this should probably
give a fairly accurate age of our sun when calculating in reverse.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
Will know soon
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Nov 23, 2009 - 03:48pm PT
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Thanks Ed,
I always enjoy your presentation of information. :D I remember too, why the numbers are important to members of the scientific community. I think it was Randy V. that schooled me on that.
I enjoy the debates and the information shared. My take for how I live my own life is more on a "how can we make life the best possible for others and ourselves."
We all come to the table with different perspectives....and that's more than good. The wealth of discovery to be shared is that much greater. Peace, lynnie
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4damages
climber
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Nov 23, 2009 - 03:48pm PT
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Gobee,
I presented that as I believe it exist prior to Adam and Eve as did
Homo Sapiens.
I know the tree, I was #834 out of 1000 passes over 70 years.
They changed 300 questions + a written id section to 200
questions and multiple choice. Over a few years there are
now 1000's to suit other needs. The 300 question test as I
remember required wrong answers as does probably the 200
question test. I do have a hard time with test as such when
doing comparison of cells under a microscope.
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MH2
climber
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Nov 23, 2009 - 04:29pm PT
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All we can do about religion is pat it on the head and ask it to please behave itself.
But other stuff can actually take us somewhere, and even a merry-go-round for protons has proud antecedents and descendants.
"The first cyclotron was a pie-shaped concoction of glass, sealing wax, and bronze. A kitchen chair and a wire-coiled clothes tree were also enlisted to make the device work."
http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/early-years.html
As a grad student my father-in-law built a Cockroft-Walton accelerator in 1938. Aluminum foil was glued to plates of window glass from the local hardware store to make capacitors, glass cylinders from junked gasoline pumps were used for the accelerator tube and for rectifiers, and chemistry was used to make the sealant for the barrier between the target area and the vacuum.
Ernest Lawrence had a brother John, and either a son or grandson of John Lawrence was a medical student, or perhaps surgical resident, at the University of Chicago when I was there in the 70s. Jack Lawrence did some climbing, I think, and he had an Art Gran guide to the Gunks.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 23, 2009 - 04:57pm PT
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From Gobee's link
Cambrian Explosion Disproves Evolution
Introduction
One of the most remarkable pieces of evidence disproving evolution is the “Cambrian Explosion” Most textbooks never mention it, and the ones that do relegate it to a short phrase or paragraph as if it is some insignificant detail.
LOL. When the FIRST sentence is a lie, perhaps the rest of the article is in question... LOL.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 23, 2009 - 05:09pm PT
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Been a while, but keep 'em comin' Gobee.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 23, 2009 - 06:15pm PT
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Just dropping by to mention that tomorrow, November 24th, will be the 150th anniversary of the publication of "On the Origin of Species", by Charles Darwin.
Darwin and Abraham Lincoln were both born on February 12th, 1809.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2009 - 06:42pm PT
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How old is the earth, Gobbee?
Gobbee: "I don't know, but it is whatever God says it is"
It will be getting dark soon, Gobbee, better get home and in bed real soon.
Curl up with your Bible and have mom bring you milk and cookies.
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Nov 23, 2009 - 07:21pm PT
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Sure which I had one of those original 1200 or so copies of On the Origin.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 23, 2009 - 07:41pm PT
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"Cambrian Explosion Disproves Evolution" Now that's a bold, creative Spin! Backward, but you gotta admire the chutzpah!
Did you see where the found a first addition, (the first printing was sold out in hours) copy of 'origin' in somebodie's bathroom in England?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 23, 2009 - 11:27pm PT
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I glad someone else thought Gobee was "talking in tongues" 'cause I wasn't going to go back up through this thread to see what I had missed...
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 23, 2009 - 11:32pm PT
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Yeah
I was laughing so hard.
For how this crazy thread has evolved that has got to take the cake.
Hahaha LOL
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MH2
climber
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Nov 24, 2009 - 12:03am PT
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Gobee's bullets blew up in the chamber, but if you run speciation backwards far enough you do have to ask how the tendency to diversify prevailed back when there was a lot less diversity in the biological and physical environment. Also, to be stable, a breeding population needs enough genetic diversity to overcome the problems of inbreeding. Surely there are good reasons why pre-life survived and prospered. What are they?
Devil's Advocate for the evening
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 24, 2009 - 12:08am PT
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probably not sexual reproduction... do bacteria worry about inbreeding? I don't think so...
why might that be?
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MH2
climber
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Nov 24, 2009 - 12:19am PT
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See folks, not to worry, the Devil's Advocate isn't any brighter than the Devil.
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jstan
climber
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Nov 24, 2009 - 12:28am PT
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Possibly rapid mutation or early death may mitigate the effect of defects.
"In bacteria the genetic material is organized in a continuous strand of DNA. This circle of DNA is localized in an area called the nucleoid, but there is no membrane surrounding a defined nucleus as there is in the eukaryotic cells of protists, fungi, plants, and animals (see eukaryote). In addition to the nucleoid, the bacterial cell may include one or more plasmids, separate circular strands of DNA that can replicate independently, and that are not responsible for the reproduction of the organism. Drug resistance is often conveyed via plasmid genes.
Reproduction is chiefly by binary fission, cell division yielding identical daughter cells. Some bacteria reproduce by budding or fragmentation. Despite the fact that these processes should produce identical generations, the rapid rate of mutation possible in bacteria makes them very adaptable. Some bacteria are capable of specialized types of genetic recombination, which involves the transfer of nucleic acid by individual contact (conjugation), by exposure to nucleic acid remnants of dead bacteria (transformation), by exchange of plasmid genes, or by a viral agent, the bacteriophage (transduction). Under unfavorable conditions some bacteria form highly resistant spores with thickened coverings, within which the living material remains dormant in altered form until conditions improve. Others, such as the radioactivity-resistant Deinococcus radiodurans, can withstand serious damage by repairing their own DNA."
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0856808.html
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 24, 2009 - 12:34am PT
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From, "4damages"
climber Nov 23, 2009 - 12:48pm PT
Gobee,
I presented that as I believe it exist prior to Adam and Eve as did
Homo Sapiens.
I know the tree, I was #834 out of 1000 passes over 70 years.
They changed 300 questions + a written id section to 200
questions and multiple choice. Over a few years there are
now 1000's to suit other needs. The 300 question test as I
remember required wrong answers as does probably the 200
question test. I do have a hard time with test as such when
doing comparison of cells under a microscope.
------
I didn't say that or know what that is from, you'll have to ask, 4damages!
GoBee
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 24, 2009 - 12:37am PT
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I post this with humility and for the sake of discussing the truth. Like I said, I'm not scared to look down the rabbit hole and think outside of the box. Let the laughing and ridicule begin, whatever . . .
Do I absolutely know all the detail? No. It is based on evidence and hypothesis: science, guessing, and faith. But much of this is very evident and we see the evidence very clearly.
I believe that modern Man created in the image of GOD has indeed been on Earth about 6000 or so years as the very complete and accurate lineage from Adam and Eve indicates, but there is very good evidence that the Earth and the Universe is much, much older. I think the Bible indicates that the Earth was made void at some time, in Genesis, and then it was ready for man, but after the dinosaurs. Man would have been an incredible tasty munchy meal for many dinosaurs. God had to remove them from the face of the Earth so man would have a chance to survive. Bible Code in Genesis where dinosaurs are first mentioned in the Torah, indicates the dinosaurs were wiped out by an Asteroid, it shows up in the exact same place! I'll try to post that page from Michael Drosnin's book, The Bible Code, a little later, (big job to scan it).
This can tie-in and give some background on the coming Earth impact of Wormwood in the Book of Revelations . . .
The evidence of Cometary/Asteroid/Meteorite impacts is now very well known. There are now approxiamently 176 known impacts on Earth that have been discovered/found/located. More no doubt have occured and more will be found as time goes on, but they are very hidden, buried, and weathered now. There are about 42 or so that left an impact crater 20km or larger! We can prove what they are with megascopic evidence, mesoscopic evidence, macroscopic evidence, microscopic evidence, and geochemistry evidence.
Lets assume that all 176 impacts occured since the last 6000 years, since the time of Adam and Eve, since some would say that the Earth is 6000 years old. That would mean we would have seen about 1 impact every 34 years on average since Adam and Eve. These would be large impacts that leave craters, some of them massive in size! Many of these would have wiped out life as we know it several times over on Earth, since we can calculate the physics of impacts and calculate the massive amounts of energy that is released. So how many times has Man be wiped off the face of Earth since he was created? Once -- via the flood! (Yes, I can here the laughter already). So that means these massive impacts have to be older than Man, and the geologic record indicates that most are much older than 6000 years, much older (millions of years). These impacts were so massive we would also have a historical written record of these events if they happened during our time. But then a human race wiped out multiple times could not leave a written record of anything. So this didn't happen. We would know it, just as we will all know when the Asteroid Wormwood impacts the Earth! We will all know it.
Geologically/evolutionary speaking, there is evidence that life had to reboot (so to speak) several times. I believe GOD took care of this. This all occurred before we were ever here. Remember, man came at the very end of the creation week. The creation week could easily be an allegory for a very long period of time, and I believe it is.
Lucifer fell from heaven long before man was created in the image of GOD. Is it not possible that creation began to go wrong due to Lucifer's falling and taking 33.33% of the Angels with him before Man made in the image of GOD showed up on the scene? I think so. Man with dinosaurs present would have been a nightmare, we probably wouldn't have made it on our own without GOD's divine constant protection.
We known that Angels and Mankind mated after Adam and Eve sinned and fell from grace, and their offspring, the Nephalim made a wreck of Earth, well at least those of us who believe GOD's word. Read all about it in the Book of Enoch.
Here are great resources to check it out:
Impact database:
http://www.unb.ca/passc/ImpactDatabase/
Craters:
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/publications/slidesets/craters/
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/publications...er_index.shtml
http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com...-on-earth/1403
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/20...impactcraters/
http://www.solarviews.com/eng/tercrate.htm
PhD. Melosh's Impact/Crater Calculator (plug in the size of the crater and see the energy released!):
http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/tekton/crater.html
http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/impacteffects/
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Earth_Impact_Effects_Program.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/science/nature/3620119.stm
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mystery_monday_040412.html
http://www.universetoday.com/guide-to-space/asteroids/asteroid-impact-calculator/
Awesome simulator!:
http://simulator.down2earth.eu/
Compare Impacts to the Energy released in a Nuclear bomb (impacts dwarf nuclear bombs easily):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon_yield
Like I have said before, Science needs to move closer to GOD, and believers have to move closer to Science. Both are right to some degree, but only one is forgiven and saved through the grace of GOD, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 24, 2009 - 12:47am PT
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my guess is you haven't made points with either scientist or believers with that last thread Klimmer
just a quick Google look, the earliest human settlements seem to have been dated to 14,000 years ago...
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/05/080508143324.htm
maybe they didn't make the cut... some prototype model?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 24, 2009 - 12:57am PT
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In the Cambrian Explosion there are lot of different fossils with some soft body as well and trilobites.
But in the Pre-Cambrian layers there are not any fossils leading up to the ones in the Cambrian. So
these scientists think it is more like top down or by intelligent design not evolution!
Edit; Also those fossils were found at 7000 foot level, maybe there was a flood?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 24, 2009 - 01:02am PT
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Hey, I'll admit I do not know the absolute details, and yes I happen to be an equal opportunity offender of both camps at times (lol), but hey what are speculating, hypotheses, and debate all about? If you never think outside of the box you'll always get the same results.
Here is more offense presented in a very meek, mild, and calm manner (lol):
Alien life is possible: Vatican
By Barney Porter for The World Today
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/11/13/2742484.htm
Steve Bassett Exopolitics Europe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2ZgKetkxZM&feature=player_embedded#
The truth is gonna wig out all sides, the science community and the religious community.
Oh well.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 24, 2009 - 01:15am PT
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really Gobee, the flood comment is pretty weak don't you think? perhaps some of the geologists here can weigh in...
and Klimmer, just when is "the truth" going to be revealed?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 24, 2009 - 01:28am PT
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Ed,
I don't know, but there are lots of behind the scenes goings on, as they say. Steve Basset's interview gets into this. There are many insiders already talking.
Many other countries now have the US back into the corner regarding Disclosure. If we don't disclose we're gonna lose serious face and trust. If we don't disclose these countries will.
If we do disclose we are gonna lose serious face and trust. It is a no win situation. The US has been deeply involved with the truth embargo for sooo long, many are not going to be able to forgive the US government.
I say the US government should come clean and ask the world's forgiveness. I don't see the NWO doing that though. They don't have a soul. They are wicked evil, and lost.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2009 - 01:31am PT
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klimmer -- "The truth is gonna wig out all sides,.."
Huh? The truth is always visible and has so been.
Some philosophers say that the manifestation of material nature is false, but it is accepted as real, but temporary.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 24, 2009 - 01:32am PT
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(Back to what I do best)
Jesus; Brightness of the Fathers's glory
Hebrews 1:3, Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (KJV)
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 24, 2009 - 01:37am PT
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Perhaps we should just leave klimmer and gobee to duke it out here. Drop by once in a while, make encouraging noises...
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 24, 2009 - 01:48am PT
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I appreciate Gobee's posts. I enjoy reading the articles. No problem here.
Gobee is doing good work.
We are brothers in Christ :-))
Edit:
Although he probably thinks I'm nuts (lol).
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 24, 2009 - 01:51am PT
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You want to fight me, buddy?
Well Jesus is me buddy! lol
Edit; "Although he probably thinks I'm nuts (lol)"
No, I think those without JESUS are nuts!
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jstan
climber
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Nov 24, 2009 - 02:12am PT
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The following site is very interesting.
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/cambrian/camb.html
Prior to the Cambrian, that is the middle proterozoic, the cyanobacteria apparently had increased the amount of oxygen in the atmosphere from a percent or so to as much as 15%. Eukaryotic life, with a different cell structure began to develop. Paramecium, for instance, are identified as a single celled eukaryote. Makes one wonder if we do not have, there, the true common ancestor in the very ancient regime.
Prokaryotic cells lacked a nucleus and the organelles that exist in the later cell forms. Modern day bacteria are prokaryotes so the earlier form still exists, though I wonder what changes may have been necessitated by the increased presence of oxygen.
A huge change in the earth’s environment apparently took place prior to the Cambrian and even oxidized metallic deposits appear. This change may have been critical to the development of the later cell structures.
We are very much in debt to cyanobacteria, it would seem. We may have been very lucky in that the earth developed an early atmosphere that attenuated the sun’s UV radiation. Do you suppose the timing for the development of prokaryotic life actually had to wait for that atmosphere to appear?
Indeed with the present day increases in UV intensity at the earth’s surface frogs and other amphibians that go through a phase vulnerable to UV are in declining number.
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MH2
climber
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Nov 24, 2009 - 04:10am PT
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Thanks, jstan.
Of course it is hard if not impossible to work backwards through the history of a complex system. It seems probable that life did alter its own environment and that geologic changes opened new niches and destroyed old ones, too.
Mr. Cambrian explosion/punctuated equilibrium Stephen Jay Gould worked on the problem of gaps, or leaps, in the fossil record. Experts still disagree but ideas abound. Surely the biological world must have changed when new predators appeared and when occasional overly successful pathogens came on the scene. After all, viruses are only able to reproduce with another organism's help and are likely a stripped-down version of their predecessors, like some other parasites. The successful parasite does not kill the host, so they say, but there may have been unsuccessful prototypes.
We don't know exactly what happened in biology billions of years in the past but that's no case for religion.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 24, 2009 - 08:39am PT
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Gobee there are Crinoid fossils on the summit block of Everest. They aren't from a flood. It's Uplift caused by plate tectonics, just one of the many natural process that make the world what it is. There is amazement abundant, without having to concoct religious juju.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Nov 24, 2009 - 09:07am PT
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The Cambrian "explosion" took some 20 million years. Geologically speaking, that is brief, however 20 million years is still a very long time. Not exactly a biblical snap of the godly fingers on day three. I think Gould's explosion remark related to the sheer number of new forms that appeared and not some instantaneous appearance of those forms. The soft bodied animals that existed prior to the cambrian simply lacked the hard shells, bones and such that are good for making fossil. In any event, the majority of evidence for evolution is not fossil based. Even if there were no fossils, there would still be ample evidence for evolution from other sources. Fossils are gravy. Happy birthday Origins!!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 24, 2009 - 09:14am PT
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I think Gould was remarking on the explosion in the paleobiological world, when it became apparent that so many forms had been with us that long, and we hadn't caught on yet.
Happy Hallucigenia day, all!
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 24, 2009 - 09:47am PT
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btw, there are pre-Cambrian fossils out there.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 24, 2009 - 10:08am PT
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Hebrews 3:1-6, Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession, who was faithful to him who appointed him, just as Moses also was faithful in all God's house. For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses—as much more glory as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself.
*(For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.)*
Now Moses was faithful in all God's house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later, but Christ is faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 24, 2009 - 10:19am PT
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"The most important scientific revolutions all include, as their only common feature, the dethronement of human arrogance from one pedestal after another of previous convictions about our centrality in the cosmos."
Stephen J. Gould
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 24, 2009 - 11:05am PT
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Worth saying it here in this thread:
Research fraud maybe more widespread than thought . . .
An article in this week's Nature suggests that research misconduct is often going unreported, and that as many as 1000 cases a year are never discovered.
By Jonathan M. Gitlin | Last updated June 20, 2008 12:55 PM
http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2008/06/research-fraud-maybe-more-widespread-than-thought.ars
Also:
"Contrary to their public image, scientists are normal, flawed human beings."13 They are as capable of prejudice, covetousness, pride, deceitfulness, etc., as anyone.” David Weatherall, "Conduct Unbecoming," American Scientist (vol. 93, January-February 2005), p. 73.
There is fraud in science. Yes, when it works as it is supposed to, it will be found out. But how long will it take, and how much damage will be done in the mean time?
There are those who will hide the truth to protect their interests no matter what side of the issue they support.
I think all scientists should be required to take an intensive course in scientific ethics and morals in their degree programs, and how to prevent it from happening. The problem is pervasive, and often goes undetected until someone questions the results of a study and then maybe it still isn't detected.
Case in point, how long will the truth be embargoed and held down regarding this phenomenon by governments (especially the US) and the corporate owned media? How long will people continue to lie to hide the truth?
The Best UFO videos Caught on Tape:
http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/30998/The_best_UFO_videos_caught_on_tape/
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 24, 2009 - 11:06am PT
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Wow skip, you're so darned smart.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 24, 2009 - 11:09am PT
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Yow, vying scripture slam!
Dirtbag, one word, Stromatolites, though I suspect you already knew that.....
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2009 - 11:18am PT
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Stromatolites
are the oldest known fossils, dating back more than 3 billion years. They are colonial structures formed by photosynthesizing cyannobacteria and other microbes. Stromatolites are prokaryotes(primitive organisms lacking a cellular nucleus) that thrived in warm aquatic environments and built reefs much the same way as coral does today. Cyannobacteria were likely responsible for the creation of earth's oxygen atmosphere. They were the dominant lifeform on Earth for over 2 billion years. Today they are nearly extinct, living a precarious existence in only a few localities worldwide.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 24, 2009 - 11:36am PT
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did you read those emails Skipt? or are you just passing on the spew?
and who cares, anyway, certainly those scientists were reacting like any other human would to having their time wasted by a group of people who have no interest in "the truth" as you put it, no interest in trying to answer a huge puzzle...
...and as I've said elsewhere, it doesn't matter, if the science is wrong it will be so found, by other scientists. And since, for the most part all a scientist has is the science that they have done, the idea of being intentionally wrong and found out basically lays to waste the entirety of their work; where's the incentive to be deceitful if you are going to have to pay? (Isn't that the premise of religious moral teaching?)
There is a recurring strain of American anti-elitism which I find very distasteful, and it is alive and well here on STForum. These scientists, be they biologists, climatologists, cosmologists, are oddly thought of as being a part of an elite. Odd because there is no bar to study science, it is open to all. Yet Americans have always had a problem with science. And as science has contributed more to policy decisions of the country it has been subject to more criticism from those who do not understand, do not want to understand and would coerce it to do their own bidding.
You can try to make scientists into an elite class, but being a scientist is no road to fame or fortune... and there are few celebrities among them. Science runs counter to many cultural traditions and religious beliefs. Why would someone choose to do it?
Through all this you can understand the frustration of individuals who have been harassed, directly, by congressmen, reviled by political constituencies, excoriated in the press.
Conspiring to keep the truth from you? hardly, the science is there for all to see... no one can hide it, it is not something that can be hidden. It can be confused by people with the intention to do so, mostly not scientists, unfortunately more by people like yourself who suspect for dubious reasons the intentions of this group of people because they disagree with your own political point of view.
Perhaps if you put the considerable energy you exhibit in maligning scientists into actually understanding the science you would be in a much better position to understand, and voice your criticism with some authority. But that would require work that you are either not capable of, or are not willing to engage in, so much simpler, so much easier, to just shot your mouth off repeating, uncritically, the dogma of your political associations.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 24, 2009 - 11:41am PT
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"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism."
Sir William Osler, "the father of psychosomatic medicine"
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 24, 2009 - 11:46am PT
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There is a recurring strain of American anti-elitism which I find very distasteful, and it is alive and well here on STForum. These scientists, be they biologists, climatologists, cosmologists, are oddly thought of as being a part of an elite. Odd because there is no bar to study science, it is open to all. Yet Americans have always had a problem with science. And as science has contributed more to policy decisions of the country it has been subject to more criticism from those who do not understand, do not want to understand and would coerce it to do their own bidding.
Nice!
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Nov 24, 2009 - 12:06pm PT
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Great post, Ed! Keep them coming.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2009 - 12:15pm PT
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Ed -- ".... the science is there for all to see ..."
The absolute truth .....
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 24, 2009 - 12:23pm PT
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Actually Skipt I did read a lot of the email as part of my administrative responsibilities... because we need to know just what the criticisms are going to be and how exposed we are to them.
So as someone who is spending time responding to the illegal act of a group of people to hack into computers and steal personal correspondences, I resent your sanctimonious ranting. To you this is all a game, to me it is a part of my job.
How morality plays into this I do not know, you seem to live in a fantasy world about how this climate research is funded, you seem to allege that the scientists have pulled the wool over the eyes of something like 8 administrations (most of them republican) and uncountable congresses (similarly republican) to rob the American people of their tax dollars to line their own pockets, to become famous at the expense of America, and to make us do something we don't want to do....
If that actually happened then perhaps the scientists are a whole lot smarter than the rest of us and are really pulling the strings, behind the scene, of some great international conspiracy to take over the world. Whoa Skipt, that's deep thinking! The cabal of scientists is taking over the world!! The poor ignorant people are being snookered into doing something that the scientists want us to do! OH MY! Skipt, we really need your help here, please show us the way, what should we do first?
LETS CUT ALL THEIR FUNDING! WHY SHOULD WE PAY FOR THE TAKEOVER?!
ya, that's the ticket, we can really put a dent in the former administrations deficit by cutting the R&D budget to zero! THen we don't have to fear that we are being made idiots by those fast talking scientists types. And anyway, we should let industry decide what R&D is needed... THEY REALLY KNOW WHAT'S GOOD FOR US!
That'll teach those immoral scientists a lesson, try to fool the american public....
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 24, 2009 - 12:31pm PT
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Now more than ever, we need Sarah Palin.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2009 - 12:35pm PT
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But YOU do need Sarah Palin.
She gives you guys so much fuel to rant and rave about.
You luv her, you know you do, in a twisted sort of way .....
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 24, 2009 - 12:38pm PT
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Ed,
Didn't mean to make you upset. Hope we are just talking and discussing important and interesting issues.
I would not say that the majority of science or scientists participate in fruad, far from it. But the problem exists, there is no doubt for whatever fraudulent reasons they do so. The articles I listed are from very respected journals and the scientific community is acknowledging the problem. It does exist.
The issue with global warming is a prime example of perhaps both sides "cooking the books."
I do think that GW is occuring due to green-house gases. We are releasing copious amounts of green-house gases artificially that would have been locked up and safely stored within the carbon cycle. There is no doubt about that. There can be no doubt it has an effect. Are there other ways of producing the energy we need by clean and renewable resources, there sure is. So why don't we do it? We all know the answer to that. Greed and power by the oil cartels around the world that enslave us and our control our oil based economies, so they have an incentive to fund and find scientists willing to compromise and say what they want them to say. Try working in Environmental consulting and see how much fruad goes on with EISs, EIRs, and CEQA. Anything will be said and fudged to get a development put in.
But are there some other influences possible also? I think so. Remember Sun-Spots stopped for a period of time for 60 years or so years during the mid 1600s to early 1700s,
"1700s early 1800s During the period 1645–1715, in the middle of the Little Ice Age, there was a period of low solar activity known as the Maunder Minimum. There is a still very poor understanding of the correlation between low sunspot activity and cooling temperatures."
and there was a documented cooling world-wide and a "Little Ice-Age." Glaciers grew and advanced considerably during this period of time.
See "Causes":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 24, 2009 - 12:43pm PT
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But YOU do need Sarah Palin.
She gives you guys so much fuel to rant and rave about.
You luv her, you know you do, in a twisted sort of way .....
As long as she isn't president then sure. I am amused by her soap opera life, definitely in a twisted sort of way.
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jstan
climber
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Nov 24, 2009 - 01:07pm PT
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This is a great thread. It jiggles the mind. Consider.
The cyannobacteria may well have created the bulk of the oxygen in our atmosphere. What may have killed off the most of them? Oxygen? Perhaps the way our own trash is killing us? Our destruction of the high altitude ozone layer in the polar regions exposes us to UV and we get skin cancer, for one thing.
The thing that keeps jumping out is that life fits into niches. When an ambient condition exists between 1 and 1.5 an organism can survive. But if that condition moves to 1.9, that life perishes.
We all have heard how life is so complex it could not have formed without some intelligent agent. To begin I would say "Look around. Tell me again how intelligent humans and perhaps human-like creatures are." Such peripheral constructs aside, maybe it is all due to the scenarios through which atmospheric oxygen has evolved on earth.
The sun is a black body emitting spectrally continuous light in the ultraviolet. (Here we have to bow to Prof. Planck, whom we are sad to say, kicked off the QUANTUM.) Since it is not a line emission any hydrocarbon chain that has a resonant absorption causing breaks in its linkage - will indeed have that spectral component incident upon it. Prior to the Cambrian period and before there was a high level of oxygen, hydrocarbons would have been a soup in constant change. It would have been virtually "a huge chemical experiment." Even single celled organisms reproducing by direct replication, as do bacteria, would have been an integral part of such an experiment.
Today's multi-cellular frogs have difficulty executing their life cycle in intense UV so we know such forms did not come along until after the cyannobacteria had done their work and their waste product, oxygen, had suppressed them. It is this kind of entirely understandable phenomenon that helps us understand Gould's "punctuated equilibrium", an outstanding example of that being the so-called “Cambrian Explosion”. You would expect to get something other than a steady rate of evolution when a critical ambient condition changes. Here in the present change of conditions we lovingly call “The Recession” the effect of ambient conditions upon life should be apparent to us - daily.
A final comment. That we have adequate supplies of oxygen to make all this possible on earth may be just an accident. May simply be due to the stage at which our progenitor star(s) became supernovae and created the material for our solar system. Things like broken legs do happen as accidents every day and those accidents we seem able to handle intellectually.
Why are we unable to handle the question of our existence itself in just this same way?
Arrogance?
Poor design of our neural nets?
Our behavior is in many ways an adaptation that evolved in response to interations between humans over the last three or four million years. So our behavior, at least in some sense, has been an example of
Intelligent design
The choice of adjective here - is open to criticism.
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roadman
climber
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Nov 24, 2009 - 01:16pm PT
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Origin of Species: happy 150th birthday!!!
Thanks Charles. We owe you everything for being the heroic leader that you were.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 24, 2009 - 01:28pm PT
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Skipt, you admitted that you didn't read the email, so where are you getting this from?
Have you ever considered that there is a hell of a lot more dollars to be had for even a hackjob to work for the Petroleum industry and churn out "research results" that show that there is nothing to worry about, we can't affect the environment one way or the other...
...and yet, there are very few such results, and few people doing it. Why? You don't think there is a huge coercive force to just bend a little bit of science so that some oil company or lobbying group would reward you for it?
No such luck... it's because the science isn't there... this may be disturbing to you, but anthropogenic climate change might just be real, and the science says so... now I wouldn't expect you to spend the time to understand it, you would rather repeat accusations that you have heard elsewhere.
Hide data, from whom? Themselves? Like I said, you think that they are capable of executing a decades long conspiracy to bilk the taxpayers out of dollars for fame and fortune. You are delusional, or worse, a dupe of political ideologues.
I'm not trying to dazzle you with anything, you idiot, you challenged me about reading the emails, and I responded that yes indeed, I had read a lot of them... damn waste of my time if you ask me, because the whole topic has been made toxically political.
As for taking my job seriously, I worry for american youth that there are teachers like you out there who lack critical skills. Perhaps you would be better suited to teaching in the new Iranian school system where adherence to dogma is more valued than actually learning.
You like to drop in and be provocative in these posts... yet you really have little to add. Even your ad hominems lack any originality... and they form the basis of your arguments. When pressed on any technical issue you retreat, "oh, I'm just a poor teacher who has too much work to do to be able to actually think, don't make me do that, it's not my job"
Give me a brake, dude, you are one of those people who just like to stir the pot for no reason other than to see people get upset. No socially redeeming aspects to your posts at all.
You have no idea of what "abuse of science" is, you have no idea of what science is, and specifically, you do not have the knowledge to understand the scientific issues of climate change. You have demonstrated that amply in your posts on the topic here.
If we want to hear what the climate change skeptics have to say, we can surf on over to their websites, we don't need it incompetently transmitted here by you.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 24, 2009 - 01:29pm PT
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Klimmer, really what are you posting on this for? You believe that the universe is going to end before there is any real problem with climate change. It should really be a non-issue for you, don't you think?
Is intellectual consistency too much to ask from even you?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2009 - 01:33pm PT
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Dr F -- "There has never been any intelligent design observed in nature"
Does this mean you are unintelligent and YOU can not design anything intelligent?
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jstan
climber
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Nov 24, 2009 - 01:35pm PT
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Skip, I think a lot of people are coming to conclude the US system of secondary education is in a state of near collapse.
If you are a teacher in that system, or even if you are not, I would be very interested to hear your opinion as to how we are to fix this.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 24, 2009 - 01:43pm PT
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We're just dust in the wind!
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jstan
climber
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Nov 24, 2009 - 01:52pm PT
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Gobee that's incredible. Actually it is not believable.
Someone who feels they have no control at all over their destiny does not post texts intended to change the way the people around them think.
You think a certain way but you do not live it.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 24, 2009 - 02:04pm PT
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"You think a certain way but you do not live it."
Ashes to ashes all fall down!
I trust in God, through Jesus to go to Heaven!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 24, 2009 - 02:09pm PT
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Weschrist, it's just a matter of time, there is no escape without faith!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 24, 2009 - 02:14pm PT
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We don't know what tomorrow will bring?
The futures uncertain, and the end is always near!
Boasting About Tomorrow
Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.” As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2009 - 02:15pm PT
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Gobbee, what grade are you in?
And are you in Bible studies now?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 24, 2009 - 02:24pm PT
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"I think he might be in special needs education"
HA HA HA GOOD ONE!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 24, 2009 - 02:33pm PT
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sorry Skipt, I got you confused with bookworm.... my bad
you're just a mouthpiece...
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 24, 2009 - 02:41pm PT
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Klimmer, really what are you posting on this for? You believe that the universe is going to end before there is any real problem with climate change. It should really be a non-issue for you, don't you think?
Is intellectual consistency too much to ask from even you?
Ed,
That is not true. I do not think that. Even if Christ was to come today and kick-butt and get this unruly world back in control, we still have 1000 years thereafter, the millenium, during which time we have an Earth to heal and make right again.
CHRISTIANS AND THE ENVIRONMENT: THE BIBLICAL BASIS,
by Tony Campolo and Gordon Aeschliman
http://www.spiritrestoration.org/Church/All%20About%20Church%20Articles/Christians%20and%20the%20Environment.htm
http://www.christianecology.org/Stewardship.html
Mankind, (and that also includes all believers) have been given dominion over the Earth. That doesn't mean we can run amuck and do whatever we please and hurt and destroy the Earth, far from it. We have a duty to keep and care for it and always do the right thing for all creation. Any so called Christian who doesn't understand this is in serious error.
I look to John Muir as a man of God who bore this truth out in our modern age. He is a fine example. My son's middle name is Muir in honor of him. His writtings have had a tremendous impact and influence on me.
In the good book of Revelations it says somewhere, that those who harm the Earth will be in turn harmed , or something to that affect (paraphrase). I'll try to find it . . . and here it is . . .
Revelation 11:18. The nations were angry and your wrath has come. The time has come for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great - and for destroying those who destroy the earth.
So what we do to the Earth and how we care for it truly matters. We will be held to account. So I have a great concern in how we treat the Earth. It matters to me very deeply. It is our only home at this time in history. We must care for it.
On edit:
I have a true affection and love for the natural Earth that GOD made. My time in the wilderness climbing, skiing, paragiliding, diving, etc. is like going to Church for me. It sickens me how we are all hurting the Earth GOD gave us to care for.
Baptized into Wilderness: A Christian Perspective on John Muir
by Richard Cartwright Austin.
Atlanta: John Knox Press.
1987
http://www.sierraclub.org/john_muir_exhibit/frameindex.html?http://www.sierraclub.org/john_muir_exhibit/john_muir_newsletter/baptized_into_wilderness_by_austin_reviews_by_williams.html
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2009 - 02:46pm PT
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Dr F
I already expected such an answer from you as you are aware. Your original stand is "From the very beginning there is no Intelligent person designing this whole cosmic creation which we see."
Science says it has so far found no evidence to support that there is an intelligent designer that caused creation/evolution.
In Darwin’s theory there is no acceptance of the living entity as spirit soul, and therefore his explanation of evolution is incomplete.
The whole process of creation is an act of gradual evolution and development from one element to another, reaching up to the variegatedness of the earth as so many trees, plants, mountains, rivers, reptiles, birds, animals and varieties of human beings. The quality of sense perception is also evolutionary, namely generated from sound, then touch, and from touch to form. Taste and odor are also generated along with the gradual development of sky, air, fire, water and earth.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Nov 24, 2009 - 02:47pm PT
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Hackers broke into the servers at a prominent British climate research center and leaked years worth of e-mail messages onto the Web, including one with a reference to a plan to "hide the decline" in temperatures.
Those of you still holding on to the myth of ACC aren't
going to be invited to the 'in' cocktail parties anymore.
You've been morphed into just another nutjob.
Complete loss of credibility is what these climate hoaxers fear
the most and its what they have achieved. Justice.
Thanksgiving 2009!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 24, 2009 - 02:56pm PT
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Straw man argument.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 24, 2009 - 02:59pm PT
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Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem
“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
The Coming of the Son of Man
“And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
The Lesson of the Fig Tree
And he told them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. As soon as they come out in leaf, you see for yourselves and know that the summer is already near. So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that the kingdom of God is near. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all has taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
Watch Yourselves
“But watch yourselves lest your hearts be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and cares of this life, and that day come upon you suddenly like a trap. For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth. But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 24, 2009 - 03:00pm PT
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fear mongering BS. Oooga-boooga.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2009 - 03:12pm PT
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Gobby, go to bed, right now.
Tuck yourself in with your Bible and a glass of warm milk.
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Nov 24, 2009 - 03:43pm PT
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MH2
have you read this?
"I try to take the Bible, the way it says, not how I think it should be"
the Fet,
I have no idea who said the above but here is another point you can give to
them.
"It's lacking dates and times along with exculpatory evidence."
Final note here.
This thread contains more than a masters thesis and should provide the
basis and answers to most all religions for those who wish to choose, to do
so. It notes the facts and theories of evolution based upon sound reasoning
and findings from experts so to compare with religions. I have stated what I
believe based upon sound reasoning and findings of experts.
/*Written about a year ago.*/
http://besaw.webs.com/about.htm
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MH2
climber
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Nov 24, 2009 - 04:26pm PT
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Gobee:
We're just dust in the wind!
jstan: Gobee that's incredible. Actually it is not believable.
Someone who feels they have no control at all over their destiny does not post texts intended to change the way the people around them think.
You think a certain way but you do not live it.
Gobee: Ashes to ashes all fall down!
I trust in God, through Jesus to go to Heaven!
This exchange really hit my funny bone although I feel guilty that the mirth may come at the expense of Gobee's sanity, if that is not too strong a term.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 24, 2009 - 04:34pm PT
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My time in the wilderness climbing, skiing, paragiliding, diving, etc. is like going to Church for me.
Wow I agree with Klimmer.
Prosletizers came to my grandfathers door drumming up business for their local church. They asked what church grandpa went to. He said "I go to the church in the woods" and motioned to his 100 acres. They asked what church was out there, he said on Sunday morning he hops on his horse or walks out there, that's his church. I feel the same way.
I trust nature to teach me more about the nature of God than the BS of man, that's for sure.
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jstan
climber
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Nov 24, 2009 - 04:39pm PT
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RJox now you hit where it hurts!
"Take a large helicopter, the kind that has been designed to be VERY quiet, it's said that the government has designed some... large slow rotors, little lift capacity and with slow flight speeds as a result... but very quiet. Such a craft would be very common appearing in broad daylight, and able to be ignored easily as nothing special."
The heaviest lift helicopter presently in existence fits your description. The Sikorsky CH-54 now known as the Ericcson Sky Crane can drop 20,000 pounds of water in the blink of an eye and it cruises at 100mph. They should have "Jesus" written bold on them.
You see them - you know your savior has arrived.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 24, 2009 - 04:42pm PT
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You could set up one hell of a mass baptism with one of those.
"Hit me Jesus!"
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yossarian
climber
WA
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Nov 24, 2009 - 06:39pm PT
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What you are referring to is sexual selection, and it is one form of natural selection.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2009 - 07:09pm PT
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For Gobby, from the Book of Genesis:
"When God[3] began to create heavens and earth, and the earth then was welter and waste and darkness over the deep and God's breath hovering over the waters, God said, 'Let there be light.' and there was light"[4]; the "firmament" separating "the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament;" dry land and seas and plants and trees which grew fruit with seed; the sun, moon and stars in the firmament; air-breathing sea creatures, fishes and birds; and on the sixth day, "the beasts of the earth according to their kinds." "Then God said, Let us make man in our image ... in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."[5] On the seventh day (observation of the Sabbath had yet to be instituted) God rests from the task of completing the heavens and the earth: "So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all his work which he had done in creation."
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 24, 2009 - 07:25pm PT
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Thanks Norton,
here's the The Creation of the World
Genesis 1:1, In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.
6 And God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 And God made the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse. And it was so. 8 And God called the expanse Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.
9 And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so. 12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening and there was morning, the third day.
14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. 16 And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. 17 And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 to l rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day.
20 And God said, “Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens.” 21 So God created the great sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” 23 And there was evening and there was morning, the fifth day.
24 And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds—livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so. 25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” 29 And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. 30 And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so. 31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.
The Seventh Day, God Rests
Genesis 2:1, Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. 3 So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 24, 2009 - 08:03pm PT
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It's hard to believe anyone takes the Biblical creation story remotely literally.
After all, what's a "day" before the Sun was even created? Is the moon really a light?
Did God really create the stars and rest of the universe just to decorate the sky?
Come on. This story was not meant to educate anyone but is probably a remnant of myths going around pre-Judaism, such as the flood story from Gilgamesh
Peace
Karl
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Nov 24, 2009 - 08:07pm PT
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I trust nature to teach me more about the nature of God than the BS of man, that's for sure.
I'm good, but I'm not sure I'm that good
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 24, 2009 - 08:46pm PT
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"It's hard to believe anyone takes the Biblical creation story remotely literally."
Well it doesn't tell everything of how it happened. Like a TR, we climbed it and had to bive!
But if you believe in God it does say allot! If we knew the whole story now we would say that is how it went down!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 24, 2009 - 09:21pm PT
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If anyone wants an example of directed evolution in humans, the best one is the fact that 1/3 of the 6,000 some societies that anthropologists have studied preferred to marry their first cousins, including the Jewish patriarchs mentioned in Genesis.
http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/anthropology/tutor/case_studies/hebrews/patriarchs.html
Later on in the book of Numbers they are specifically admonished to marry the daughters of their father's brother, the most unusual form of cousin marriage in the world.
Of course we've all been taught that this is a bad idea and the state of West Virginia does have 3 1/2 times the number of children with physical or mental defects as the national average. In ancient times however, it had quite a different effect, since close inbreeding concentrates the genes, both good and bad.
When high infant mortality rates prevailed the physically and mentally defective died. Thus, bad traits were eliminated and the good ones concentrated. West Virginia has problems only because of modern medicine and modern sensibilities. Today, leaving a child by the roadside to die is frowned upon.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 24, 2009 - 09:35pm PT
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Dr. F-
I can't let slip a comment which you posted earlier about "Christians and Catholics". Historically speaking that is plain wrong and by using that phrase you are playing right into the hands of the modern Christian fundamentalists who maintain they are the only true Christians and that anyone else with a different view is not worthy to be called a Christian. Surely that was not your intention?
In fact, as Karl pointed out a couple thousand posts ago, there was a huge variety of scriptures and interpretations of the Christian message in the first centuries after Jesus. It was only 300 years later with the acceptance of Christianity as the Roman state religion, that Christianity acquired specific creeds and rules for membership.
Most of the early groups like the Gnostics were defined as heretics. Others older than the Catholics (Egyptian and Ethiopian Copts, Armenians, Chaldeans, and Malabar Christians to name a few) were excluded from communion shortly after.
So please, as an atheist, be consistent. Don't support one faction of Christians over another!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 24, 2009 - 10:03pm PT
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Gobee wrote
Karl> "It's hard to believe anyone takes the Biblical creation story remotely literally."
Well it doesn't tell everything of how it happened. Like a TR, we climbed it and had to bive!
But if you believe in God it does say allot! If we knew the whole story now we would say that is how it went down!"
I mean, when it reads that God made man from the Dirt. Do you interpret that as literally "Dirt" which resulted from the decomposition of organic matter during the past day or two when that stuff was created, or something more general, like the minerals and organics substances already present on the earth.
It's a slippery slope I suppose. Did God make woman from a literal rib, or we we share part of the same DNA? Pretty soon, evolution isn't so incompatible with the Bible if you realize it's a huge generalization using metaphor, allegory and maybe some outright myth so that people had something to grip onto.
The story reads pretty earth-centric to me, but I suppose it's for earthlings.
Peace
Karl
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 24, 2009 - 10:38pm PT
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The making-people-out-of-dirt thing originated in Sumerian mythology and just got cut-and-pasted into Judaism with most of the rest of it, except instead of a bunch of gods they boiled it down to just one, and instead of cyclic time they postulated a single beginning and a timeline that stretched to definite end. As far as being metaphors, not really, more like hunches. They really had no idea what they were talking about, which is prerequisite for actually drawing a metaphor. They did the best with what little they had, but that's no excuse to pretend they knew anything special. (Giving people something to grip onto, sure. That about sums it up.)
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 24, 2009 - 11:07pm PT
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Speaking of Sumerians, I believe they were the source of interesting stories for Hindus as well as Hebrews. Take for example the story of the baby Krishna.
Krishna was born a prince in northern India but a wicked king tried to kill him so his mother floated him down the Ganges in a basket which came to rest in the reeds along the bank. He was noticed and rescued by a kindly cowherder and his wife who raised him. Thus he grew up understanding ordinary people. Later he was rediscovered and restored to his throne.
Of course a fundamentalist Christian will tell you the Hindus must have borrowed the story from them while the fundamentalist Hindus will insist the Jews borrowed the story from them. Anthropologists will say, the likely source was the Sumerians and that a good story travels both east and west.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
Will know soon
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Nov 24, 2009 - 11:16pm PT
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Jan, you've hit on a quiet, but resounding thread of thought/thing I can't quite put into words. Even the American Indian's have stories that hint at similarities of connections to other cultures/religious beliefs.
I am thinking more and more that God is so big there are bits of him everywhere and they all connect. Creation, Evolution, Religions....I would have been burnt at the stake for saying this eons ago.
But of course my bottom line will always be my best friend, jesus. Because I know him as well as I know lynnie. :D
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 25, 2009 - 12:36am PT
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Jesus gave sight to the man born blind with spit and mud put on his eyes!
I really don't know how all this works, it's all a miracle, and so is thinking about it!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 25, 2009 - 01:19am PT
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Lynn-
You would really enjoy reading Carl Jung's theory of the collective unconscious.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 25, 2009 - 01:23am PT
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By golly, for a minute there we were verging on a discussion of teleology, and the invention of history.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 25, 2009 - 01:25am PT
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Corniss-
Please understand that animal slaughter is absolutely abhorrent to most Hindus in the world, the majority of whom are vegetarians. The Hindus in Nepal and northeastern India who do this are a special sect who believe in blood sacrifices still. As with many religions, animal sacrifice for religious purposes was long ago given up by the majority. Unfortunately, Nepal became a refuge for the most conservative Hindus at the time the Muslims invaded India. Time has passed them by in many respects.
On the other hand, this is probably the only meat most of those people will eat all year. At least the meat eaters there have the courage to face the results of their dietary habits, while we stick our slaughterhouses away from towns and staff them with illegal immigrants, pretending we don't know where the nicely wrapped plastic packages originated.
The photo by the way was no doubt photoshopped by the anti slaughter people who sponsored the ad.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
Will know soon
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Nov 25, 2009 - 01:26am PT
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I think I may have Jan. Possibly in my library. Will go and check it out. Peace. lynne
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 25, 2009 - 03:00am PT
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"Hindu's to cut the throats of 500,000 animals in Nepal (today)
November 24, 2009 for the Hindu Goddess Gadhimai in gigantic
religious ceremony.
Makes you wonder how peaceful a religion it is when
a sharp knife and axe are used daily for the purpose of worship."
Seems funny to me you would take offense. Are you a vegetarian? Do you say grace before your meals? Doesn't Judaism have animal sacrifice at its very core and only quit because they lost the temple? Christianity, as it is practiced, doesn't refute that God needs blood sacrifice, but uses Jesus instead of goats and such. Those Nepalis eat every bite of their meat, so how is it wrong they sacrifice to God first?
And indeed, all those animals are treated far, far better in their lives than farm animals in the US.
Personally, I don't sacrifice animals or eat hardly any meat but I find the whole posting likely hypocritical
Peace
Karl
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MH2
climber
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Nov 25, 2009 - 03:30am PT
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By golly, for a minute there we were verging on a discussion of teleology, and the invention of history.
But climbing is autotelic.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 25, 2009 - 09:15am PT
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I just want to Thank God for sending His Son, Jesus!
And for allowing us to Live Wide!
Look at all the Blessing's We do have!
Happy Thanksgiving...
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jstan
climber
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Nov 25, 2009 - 01:23pm PT
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Another trustafarian?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 25, 2009 - 03:47pm PT
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If you ask me, the big sacrifice Jesus made would be coming to this dirtbag planet in the first place, not going back to his dope heaven where everything is Irie.
Peace
Karl
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Gene
Social climber
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Nov 25, 2009 - 03:51pm PT
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Karl,
LOL. Thanks for the chuckle.
gene
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MH2
climber
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Nov 25, 2009 - 03:59pm PT
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Hey! Don't disrespect my planet. Jesus was a snob?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 25, 2009 - 04:37pm PT
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Let's just say that he, uh, thought very highly of himself. No self-esteem problem there.
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fongschway
Social climber
Plainfield, VT
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Nov 25, 2009 - 06:45pm PT
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Good thing he wasn't a welder.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 26, 2009 - 04:09am PT
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Meanwhile I would like to thank Ed and jstan for their high quality contributions.
I know they must wonder if anyone reads them when they are followed by this sort of commentary, so I'd like to note that I do and have learned a lot.
If I don't comment it's because I'm still mulling over what they said...........
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 26, 2009 - 11:25am PT
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This image reminded me of this thread.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 26, 2009 - 12:11pm PT
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from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno
Giordano Bruno, born Filippo Bruno (1548 – February 17, 1600), was an Italian philosopher, mathematician and astronomer best known as a proponent of heliocentrism and the infinity of the universe. His cosmological theories went beyond the Copernican model in identifying the sun as just one of an infinite number of independently moving heavenly bodies: he is the first man to have conceptualized the universe as a continuum where the stars we see at night are of identical nature as the sun. He was burned at the stake by authorities in 1600 after the Roman Inquisition found him guilty of heresy.
Apparently the church expressed regret.... also from that article:
On the 400th anniversary of Bruno's death, Cardinal Angelo Sodano declared Bruno's death to be a "sad episode". However he added that people should not judge those who condemned Bruno and maintained - invoking "historical records" - that the inquisitors had in fact "had the desire to preserve freedom and promote the common good and did everything possible to save his life" by trying to make him recant and subsequently by appealing the capital punishment with the secular authorities of Rome.
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UncleDoug
climber
Places unkown
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Nov 26, 2009 - 12:14pm PT
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So did Jesus die after he was ressurected, ?????????
or is he still alive??????????
Eat three hits of purple windowpane.
Then you will figure it out!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 26, 2009 - 12:20pm PT
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thanks for your posts too, Jan, they provide a wonderful parallax on this topic from a non-western viewpoint, and your own expertise in observing and understanding cultures
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jstan
climber
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Nov 26, 2009 - 12:45pm PT
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There are times it seems the human race is settling into unsalvageable mindlessness.
Then along comes FET with the double facepalm.
I am convinced God sent him.
Just in time.
And yes!
Jan you are convincing me I should know some eastern thought.
After all they have been working on this three times as long as have we.
And yes, Ed. I think the brutal savagery that has so often reappeared in Western theologies, as they are practiced (but not as they are taught) is disturbing. Disturbing not just because it so sad to see the great work of what must have been a very kind man, turned to such uses. But because this history should be a major concern to everyone who wishes to enjoy spirituality. You can't be part of something like this ---and be uplifted.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 26, 2009 - 01:03pm PT
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Uh, yeah, thanks Fet.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 26, 2009 - 01:17pm PT
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But ultimately were all just sheep in the end.
Otherwise there would be no mortality.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 26, 2009 - 03:17pm PT
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Skip, that guy you have floating in your avatar box certainly didn't care about science, in any way... it was all about politics, and who you could line up to support your side's view point when the prevailing advice was counter to the desire of your constituency.
Then Gov. Regan didn't think that cars caused the smog in Los Angles Valley... "the indians" called it the valley of smoke, after all, no need to impose those regulations on emissions then...
...also the ozone depletion, couldn't possibly be real...
...and then there was that comment about trees being the biggest polluters.
Science is never settled, no scientist has said that it is settled. However, this doesn't mean that anything is true, either... science builds on the incremental accumulation of observation and endless tests of experimentation. So too the climate science you are so fond of trashing.
In spite of the politicization of that science, there is a huge body of observation and evidence, available for all to see and consider, to propose alternate explanations that must take into account all of what is known. Right now we can't explain all those things on the basis of "natural causes" alone, we find we must include the effects of our "civilization."
That life can have a real effect on the planet is not a surprise. The oxygen you breath would not be there, in the atmosphere, without life. The limestone cliffs you climb on? where did those come from?
The science on the climate is not settled in the sense that there are many many more things to track down and understand. This is known to everyone who comes to that field and tries to understand what has been done.
When this science starts to tread on public policy it becomes hugely contested. Because it would represent a huge redirection of resources (read dollars $$s) from one set of interests (e.g. fossil fuels industry) to other interests (mitigating energy policies probably as an alternative to fossil fuels) there is bound to be huge resistance from those who think they will loose...
...it is only natural, to question the basis of the science that leads to the policy.
There is a demand for energy that will be met, be it fossil fuels, nuclear, alternatives, conservation. If we do push for limits in emissions whole industries will spring up to meet those demands, energy costs will more closely reflect their true costs, and life will go on. It is possible that someone, somewhere would like to make the outcome favorable to them... isn't that the market at work?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 26, 2009 - 03:57pm PT
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...and then there was that comment about trees being the biggest polluters. Didn't everyone agree that it was cows farting that produced greenhouse gasses and so caused global warming? Everyone but WB, perhaps?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 26, 2009 - 04:09pm PT
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Well fraud is a loaded word which means something different when you are talking about it happening in science, different probably than a legal definition of fraud. Fraud is a crime, where one is intentionally deceptive for the purpose of making a personal gain or to cause damage to someone else.
Scientific fraud is being intentionally deceptive, though the gain is not usually subject to legal jurisdiction, as in the priority of a discovery which could, indirectly, result in gain, as in the case of promotion.
However, scientific fraud is found out because the experiments and observations can be reproduced by any other scientist. We require reproducibility, and we require open publication and communication. If the results cannot be reproduced then they are certainly suspect. But the observation can be the result of incompetence too, with no intent to defraud.
In any case, because of the nature of science, these things are public, and then eventually found to be wrong, whether by intentional deception of by incompetence, the scientist or set of scientists generally loose the ability to do science, as their results are suspect.
So committing incompetence or fraud in science usually terminates a person's career, they are no longer able to practice science.
This consequence is much more severe than the consequence of committing fraud prosecutable as a violation of civil law. There, one does the time and is back at it afterwards... tax fraud which is probably widely practiced in the US is seldom prosecuted.
The reason why a scientist would commit fraud are difficult to understand, because it is inevitable that the fraud will be uncovered by other scientists... since what you are remembered for in science is the work that you do, you essentially destroy everything you had ever done as a scientists by engaging in scientific fraud. Being incompetent has a similar penalty... so scientists tend to be very conservative when publishing their work.
There is no civil prosecution of scientific fraud because the legal system does not consider the individual gains, or the individual damages to rise to a level of importance in the broader society...
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MH2
climber
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Nov 26, 2009 - 04:17pm PT
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Scientific fraud is also defined as when a website is hacked and all
the rotten data analysis is exposed as well as the communications on
how best to keep this from the Freedom of Information requests.
No, it's not.
That may be evidence of some sort of deception but you are misusing the word science in the above statement.
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MH2
climber
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Nov 26, 2009 - 04:29pm PT
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Scientific Fraud does not include "Scientists using fraud?"
Well, that is one way to look at it.
I would call that an improvement over Settled Science = Fraud Science.
If you are trying to make a case of any sort it is good to be clear, complete, and avoid loaded terms.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 26, 2009 - 04:34pm PT
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Now more than ever, we need Sarah.
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MH2
climber
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Nov 26, 2009 - 04:34pm PT
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On the other hand, if you just want to vent, you can say whatever you feel like.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 26, 2009 - 04:45pm PT
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I was going to write on the process of publishing... but it is involved and to make it accessible to "the public" will require some work, so later.
To declare "fraud" you need to define the gain that these scientists obtained in the act. In addition, if you are going to claim it is illegal, then you need to provide a motive.
I find these things lacking in any of your posts, Skipt... and there will be no finding in any court that would support you, it just isn't there.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 26, 2009 - 04:51pm PT
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perhaps I am a clown, but if there were illegal activities, then the political camp that feels climate change is a fraud would have brought charges... certainly there was ample opportunity to do so during the times of strong republican control of both the congress and the administration.
So unless those people were so incompetent in politics and in law to figure out a way to prosecute this alleged illegal activity, I would posit that there is no such activity. The matter is so charged that if illegality had happened it would have been found out and prosecuted to the fullest.
Yet we are debating over a set of emails that you have admitted you haven't even read. You are really being intellectually dishonest, you don't have any idea what is in those emails because you feel you don't need to wade through it all, you'd prefer to be instructed in your response by other people who share your views.
Let's face it, you don't know what you're talking about on this point.
No data was faked.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 26, 2009 - 05:06pm PT
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great, the last time this was discussed you hadn't actually read the emails
I await your explanation on how the science is wrong...
...I doubt that most of the code you wrote, if scrutinized by a critical person, would stand up, but I am making that up too, probably projecting my own case...
...and I would welcome someone digging in to my work and actually providing critical comments, that is what it's all about.
So Skipt, please enlighten us on the climate science, not on the climate politics.
And I do not accept your assertion that there is as much fraud in science as in politics.
Fraud in politics is usually rewarded with higher office...
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jstan
climber
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Nov 26, 2009 - 07:30pm PT
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Skip:
"Unlike you and Ed I do not defend Priests who do these things."
Can you point us to the place where Ed and Wes supported child abuse? That's a serious claim.
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jstan
climber
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Nov 26, 2009 - 07:44pm PT
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Skip:
I understand. Also I know every time I get too caught up in the flow of a discussion someone, very properly, brings me up short. We need for that to happen. That's one way in which we learn.
Edit:
I don't think any of this is picking nits. The treatment we accord each other is the bed rock upon which society is based.
For my part I have been pressing really hard on the idea that believing in a god does not relieve us of the responsibility to respect the rights of others. I think Jesus stood for that. I really can not understand why it is the faithful who are familiar with Jesus's teachings, are not all over the case of religious organizations who do not follow those teachings.
If people really followed Jesus we would have huge discussions going on right now in many religious organizations.
I am not hearing them.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 26, 2009 - 08:08pm PT
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"So did Jesus die after he was ressurected, ?????????
or is he still alive??????????"
I Am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life
*“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.*
And you know the way to where I am going.” Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”
Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.
“I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.
“These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid. You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. And now I have told you before it takes place, so that when it does take place you may believe. I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me, but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father. Rise, let us go from here.
The Promise of the Holy Spirit
Acts 1:1-5, In the first book, O Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach, until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commands through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen. He presented himself alive to them after his suffering by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God.
And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
The Ascension
Acts 1:6-11, So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven?
*This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”*
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 26, 2009 - 08:10pm PT
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I thought he said the kingdom of heaven is within?
How can you die if you are the Eternal Being?
PEace
Karl
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 26, 2009 - 08:54pm PT
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The Resurrection of Christ
1 Corinthians 15, Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
The Resurrection of the Dead
Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.
But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf? Why are we in danger every hour? I protest, brothers, by my pride in you, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die every day! What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.” Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals.” Wake up from your drunken stupor, as is right, and do not go on sinning. For some have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame.
The Resurrection Body
But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
Mystery and Victory
I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 26, 2009 - 09:04pm PT
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the case against the priests was settled during legal proceedings
The scientists that Skipt is accusing of fraud have not been found to have committed fraud. Perhaps that will come, but right now, it's just Skipt blowing smoke. He actually will not, and cannot address if they actually committed fraud because he doesn't understand the science, nor does he understand how science is done.
However, he does understand how politics is done, and he is practicing politics, by saying over and over again something that he hopes will become true by exhausting those he feels are wrong. But it will not make it so.
Skipt has nothing to stand on in this matter, except his ignorance of how science is done, and his hatred of the people who are doing it, at least science that challenges his view of how the world should be...
Right now, all we've heard from Skipt is his opinion on matters he has little expertise in.
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jstan
climber
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Nov 26, 2009 - 09:09pm PT
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Here in this area after settlements in the billions of dollars for abuse of the faithful, many properties owned by the catholic church were sold, nuns were forced to look for housing, and the amount of money flowing to the church monthly was reported to show a decrease. I have not seen any later report on the size or the persistence of this supposed decrease. I have not heard of any delegations to cardinal MaHoney of believers insisting that the church put itself right if any further treasure was to be forthcoming. And I have not heard any reports on how the Department of Justice monitors the activities of the church as a tax exempt charitable organization as it acts in things like the gay marriage and abortion issues. This is a matter of law and we should have transparency.
When standing before him, will god accept the plea, "I didn't do anything, your grace."
Cause that's what I see. No one is doing anything.
PS
The business of being ready to stand before god used to be a major issue.
This was so because some people really did believe there was a god and a heaven.
Maybe that has all changed.
Since the War the atom has been split, we have gone to the moon, animals are being cloned, and it now looks as thought we have a good idea when the whole universe was created. A believer would have to be in a catatonic state not to have their "belief" badly shaken. Everything makes sense if you assume all of this is argument in retreat as people try to figure out some way to salvage what they think they need.
In retreat, any kind of claim serves.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 26, 2009 - 10:30pm PT
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ok Skipt, post up the evidence friend... so far we have only got your vindictive on this, nothing much from you other than that... I've tried to use more than ad hominem arguments and you keep attacking me...
I'm not defending anyone, I'm trying to explain things as I see and know them, which is a great variance with what you've put out there. What are my views? The fact that you know them must mean I've probably been able to explain them so that even you can understand them.
Anyway, what are your points? where is the fraud? Post your case up man...
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 26, 2009 - 11:24pm PT
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Skip went to get the evidence ......
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jstan
climber
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Nov 26, 2009 - 11:42pm PT
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I think I hear a racket in the hall. When he comes in, no spitballs now. Be nice.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 27, 2009 - 01:18am PT
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jstan
climber
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Nov 27, 2009 - 01:45am PT
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Gobee's posts have so encouraged me I propose to share with you a revelation I got yesterday while talking to an accounts person.
I, quite by happenstance, heard myself saying something that sounded reasonable. You all can appreciate it was a new experience. I’ll give an account of this as the ST crew is highly expert and I could use some (free) expert advice. I said,
If a person is not inclined or able to make highly risky and outrageously profitable investments how should they apportion assets between traditional IRA and a ROTH. (I was not phrasing it as a question.) Well if you are getting anything like treasury returns, there is no return. Why do we like to keep money in an IRA account that we owed in income tax? Because we are hoping to make money off the government’s money by investing it. The Other Person’s Money gambit. Well, if the return is truly zero and you feel it will stay zero for the foreseeable future, you might as well just give the stuff to the government. You get no advantage and indeed there are disadvantages. Several disadvantages.
1. If you are an elderly (and refined) gentleman like myself, the Required Minimum Distribution(RMD) each year forces you to take distribution on two or three times the amount you need. It forces all your assets out early in retirement and leaves you nothing with which to pay long term care. The government is forcing you onto the State. That’s not a problem if you are a fire breathing climber at 85 but frankly for a refined gentleman like myself, to give up my visits each year to the south of France, the end of life adjustment will be, how shall I put it - disturbing.
2. If you just pay the tax and put the money into a ROTH there is no RMD. And you can go all the way to the exit doing just what you always did. Squeezing the pennies and sanding off the edges of your gold coins. Since the Roth is (supposedly) tax free, every April 15 you will, however, have to keep your second finger poised ready for its annual salute to the IRS.
3. Congress is talking now about a tax surcharge to pay for the back to back vacations we are giving people in Afghanistan. In 2003 I had already decided this was something on which we should plan and have done quite a bit already. Why is it so bad? Well we put off paying the government its money at the old lower tax rate but now when we start pulling out those fat RMD’s we will be paying more than we would have paid when we first earned the money.
4. Back in 2003 my monster spreadsheet which predicts everything, (short of the weather) out to the year I turn 120 gave a 15% higher present value by eliminating the IRA’s entirely. It did this even absent any assumption as to income tax surcharges. Spreadsheets have been known to lie so I am now confirming this.
5. One scenario by which the government may limit the social security benefits for which we have paid could work off the fat RMD’s you get from an IRA. First off the social security is, for any substantial income, already 85% taxable. But people are starting to talk about an income cap. The RMD’s can’t be controlled and may well shut down paid for benefits from SS. Mind you I don’t think the Roth will get around this. The government knows all about the Roth and all they have to do is figure into your AGI the “deemed” money you would get from the Roth. That will shut down your SS quick as a bunny.
6. Since there will be no income limitation on simple direct Roth contributions from wages starting in 2010, even the idea of going back to work is beginning to sound interesting. Besides. I really think you youngsters should stop getting all of the breaks.
Out of all of this I did get one really solid answer. I have found an answer to long term care. When I get to that point I will go up to that cabover in Whispering Pines, clear out all the packrats and fix it up so I can lie there and look out at the mountains.
Then I will eat the two McDonalds double burgers brought along and will peacefully wait for my arteries to clog up.
Death by McDonalds.
Can you get more american than that?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 27, 2009 - 01:52am PT
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Not much more I'd wager!
thanks for bringing this up, I think that things get so complex it's hard to remember the second law: at best we can brake even...
maybe Fattrad will fly into this thread and dispense some financial advice...
Oh, don't forget to "supersize" the fries...
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 27, 2009 - 01:59am PT
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I'm sinking in that boat as well, save now pay later.
Or pay now and later, cus your dreaming if you don't think you'll pay more tax on it when you start drawing it! But if it goes to high you better pay now? Catch 22!
Edit; I better order a Double Double with a shake!
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MH2
climber
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Nov 27, 2009 - 03:41am PT
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My Mom is 83. I'm sure you've heard this one, before, but her advisor told her to distribute her remaining financial assets among several mattresses.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 27, 2009 - 03:49am PT
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Jstan
When it comes to investments these days, to put this in religious terms, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't
and even if you get lucky with money, you might drop dead.
So best to be at peace with yourself and then you can live with whatever happens. A BMW and Kia have far more in common than they are different.
Peace
Karl
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 27, 2009 - 08:53am PT
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Unless it's the 1933 Deusenberg 20GRAND!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 27, 2009 - 12:30pm PT
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Is it me or does anyone else sense something wrong with the new Pope?
Pictures speak a thousand words. Something just isn't right.
I miss John Paul 2 as the Pope. And in his younger days he was a very avid hiker. Did he ever climb? Dunno.
http://www.bayside.org/directives/PopeJohnPaul2-1.jpg
Ok, just checked it out:
"Pope John Paul II was also an expert skier and swimmer, and he canoed the rapids. He also liked mountain climbing, hiking and kayaking. ..."
http://www.culturalcatholic.com/PopeJohnPaulII.htm
Cool. I knew I liked him for a reason besides being a devout man of GOD.
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jstan
climber
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Nov 27, 2009 - 12:43pm PT
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I have the vague recollection John Paul was associated somehow with the Polish resistance. From all accounts a wonderful gentleman. And he had begun to deal with the Galileo problem.
I read Benedict has pulled back on that initiative. Benedict was the enforcer before becoming pope. Wondering how he became pope is like wondering how J. Edgar Hoover and Tom Delay rose so high.
Edit:
No. J Edgar spent most of his time collecting dirt files on everyone in DC. Enforcers do this.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 27, 2009 - 04:19pm PT
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except, Jennie, when Skipt essentially uses the same argument, and actually continues to use the same argument throughout his posts to this thread.
I'm not sure he's engaged in presenting his case except to attack the character of those he's arguing against, whether it be the subjects in the email list, or those here on the STForum.
I have tried to refrain from using the ad hominem argument, but at some point it becomes difficult not to question the person, himself, when he will not present any other argument. And I believe he actually means to be very personal about it, as I have read things directed at me which I think are quite beside the point.
Wes' reaction is his own business, and turning up the heat in these sorts of arguments is counter productive to the debate. But I have not yet seen Skipt present a cogent discussion of this issue.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 27, 2009 - 04:44pm PT
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"Ardi" is the nickname given to a shattered skeleton that an international team of scientists painstakingly excavated from the Ethiopian desert, analyzed over the course of 15 years, and declared Thursday to be a major breakthrough in the study of human origins. Ardi lived more than a million years before "Lucy," a much-celebrated, 3.2 million-year-old fossil of an early human progenitor found just 45 miles away.
If the scientists are correct, Ardi and her kind were the ancestors of our ancestors. She was a transitional figure, almost a hybrid -- a tree creature who could carry food in her arms as she explored the woodland floor on two legs.
The skeletal remnants of Ardi were recovered along with bones from at least 35 other members of a species that the scientists call Ardipithecus ramidus. Their arduous investigation had incited grumbling in a scientific community that had grown impatient to find out what exactly had been found in the silty clay of Ethiopia. The answers are dramatic, detailed in 11 papers published Thursday in the online edition of the journal Science and discussed in dual press conferences in Washington and Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.
The discovery of Ardi "further confirms that Ethiopia is the cradle of humankind," said Yohannes Haile-Selassie, the paleontologist who found the first two bones of Ardi in 1994.
Human origins is a field with high stakes and small bones, and the elaborate roll-out of the new research probably will trigger debate about the message contained in fossils so fragile they had to be excavated with dental picks and porcupine quills.
"It was a sort of a time capsule from 4.4. million years ago with contents that nobody had ever seen before," said Tim White, a University of California at Berkeley paleoanthropologist who led the Ardi research team. "We worked for years at opening that time capsule by collecting every shred of evidence that we could find."
The scientists who found Ardi do not contend that she necessarily evolved into Lucy. The human line of primates could have splintered, with some species turning into genetic dead ends. Lucy's line of primates could have diverged from Ardi's line long before Ardi lived. Even so, White said he believes that his team has documented an evolutionary sequence that shows, at the genus level, where people came from. Ardipithecus, then Australopithecus, then Homo.
Lucy, a member of the species Australopithecus afarensis, was a small-brained primate that had fully adapted to a bipedal life and had expanded its habitat beyond the forest into the savannah of Africa. Unlike Ardi, she lacked the grasping big toe. Ardi and Lucy had different teeth, with Lucy's enlarged molars more adapted to a wide-ranging diet on the savannah.
"Ardi tells us twice as much as Lucy did. We have hands and feet, a more complete environment, a more complete skeleton, it's older, it's more primitive, it shows us the process of transformation from common ancestor to hominid," said C. Owen Lovejoy, an anthropologist at Kent State University who was part of the Ardi team.
complete article here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/01/AR2009100103432.html
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Nov 27, 2009 - 05:39pm PT
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Yes, I missed your specific context, Wes. But highly denigrating and generalized name calling does little to isolate or define specific issues. Rather it incites emotions and re-polarizes readers regarding continuing arguments, here. There's vast simplification in contending that creationism, global warming, religion, war, republicanism, nuclear energy and wolf taxidermy etc. are all subtypes of one overwhelmingly united human mindset.
"I have read things directed at me which I think are quite beside the point."
Those things are beside the point, Ed. Being human, we tend to respond in like manner to how others regard us. Perhaps Skip is tired of the demonization he receives on ST and reacts accordingly. Personally I don't believe you are deserving of the defamation. I would have difficulty dragging skeletons from your hidden closets.
Not to say I'm always above such things. In the good old days, children like Skip and myself were left to perish on windswept crags.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 27, 2009 - 05:41pm PT
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2009 - 05:45pm PT
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2008 Republican Presidential Primary Debate:
Moderator to Republicans: Raise your hand if you "believe" in EVOLUTION..
NOT ONE REPUBLICAN RAISED THEIR HAND.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Nov 27, 2009 - 06:13pm PT
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2008 Republican Presidential Primary Debate:
Moderator to Republicans: Raise your hand if you "believe" in EVOLUTION..
NOT ONE REPUBLICAN RAISED THEIR HAND
Apparenly Mitt Romney's arm was inflamed with Politicians Palsy. He's on record as saying he "believes in evolution."
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jstan
climber
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Nov 27, 2009 - 06:22pm PT
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Jennie:
If I may.
Wes is an impatient kind of guy. The important point is he knows that. What he said certainly does not advance the effort to reach a sincere discusion, as you were so kind to point out. In time he will mature and become better. As should we all.
Unfortunately what is happening here is people have a mistaken idea of what is important. We still hang on to the quite surrealistic idea that debates can be "won." Debates are quite frankly unimportant. It is only the relationships between people that are important. The only important objective is for people, together, to sort through the costs and benefits of various possibilities and, sincerely, to learn from each other. Hidden agendas need to be discarded. A discussion in which either party is totally unwilling to be "persuaded" is quite simply a waste.
Most of what we do here is a waste. But every once in awhile..................
I have had a number of discussions with Skip myself. The thing you have to realize is that when he slips into attack mode with innuendo and slurs on your character--he has no idea that is what he is doing, What Ed is doing is exactly right. He is playing Sgt. Friday. "Just the facts ma'am." Will Skip someday see what he is doing? Quite probably. We'll get there sooner or later.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 27, 2009 - 06:45pm PT
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"Unfortunately what is happening here is people have a mistaken idea of what is important. We still hang on to the quite surrealistic idea that debates can be "won." Debates are quite frankly unimportant. It is only the relationships between people that are important. The only important objective is for people, together, to sort through the costs and benefits of various possibilities and, sincerely, to learn from each other."
Wurd!
Baba
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Nov 27, 2009 - 07:16pm PT
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Thanks for the insightful post Jstan. I'm compelled to agree that debates are seldom won on internet forums.
I have issues with holding folks in the mud and focusing in their person rather than their ideas. I'm of the opinion that several ST members have left because they couldn't abide the defamation and name calling. And many educated, well informed individuals refrain from posting on highly polarized topics because of the vitriolic tenor of discussion.
You're probably right, Wes is impatient. I wasn't suggesting he was the lone and primary name caller. He has the ability to raise my ire..... from our history of online encounters. But face to face, civility would rule. I don't dislike or wish him ill.
Skip? Again, he gets acute doses of negativity and chooses to return some of it. Right or wrong? I suppose returning ill for ill is wrong. Pride is as big of factor online as it is in the "real world". Skip is sincere about his beliefs....I would suggest if he's confronted in a more congenial and less demonizing manner, his response might be more affable.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 27, 2009 - 07:20pm PT
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if he's confronted in a more congenial and less demonizing manner, his response might be more affable.
I don't think I was provocative in my posts... but the escalation occurred quite quickly on Skipt's part.
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jstan
climber
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Nov 27, 2009 - 08:02pm PT
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May not be worthwhile to post this. Take it for what little it is worth.
In 2005 or 2006 i was on wreck.com a little and you would not believe the invective. People asked me why I was willing to be subjected to such stuff. The answer is pretty simple. Immediately as you resist your resistance validates the abuse. For so long as you believe the people have great value you just ignore irrelevancies and press onward.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 27, 2009 - 09:33pm PT
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You guys have no focus.
You wander all over the place.
You'll never understand the truth by shooting crooked arrows .....
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 27, 2009 - 09:35pm PT
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Forget skipy,
Find the bullseye ....
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 27, 2009 - 09:37pm PT
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As in water face reflects face,
so the heart of man reflects the man.
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.1) By John MacArthur
http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2009 - 10:42pm PT
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2008 Republican Presidential Primary Debate:
Moderator to Republicans: Raise your hand if you "believe" in EVOLUTION..
NOT ONE REPUBLICAN RAISED THEIR HAND
And Jennie says:
Apparenly Mitt Romney's arm was inflamed with Politicians Palsy. He's on record as saying he "believes in evolution."
---------------------------------------
Well Jennie, he was kissing the ass of the Christian right while you
say he was lying out of the other side of his mouth.
Either way, he got a mouthful.
As a Republican, you better NOT say you believe in science and evolution, or
you'll never win a Primary against the likes of Caribou Barbie and John McCain.
That's right, be like our sweet, naive little Prince Gobee, blissfully
dreaming of candy and mommy and fairies and Santa and CREATIONISM.
The less you know, the less painful life can be. Truth hurts.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2009 - 10:58pm PT
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And I watched my father die in my arms one year ago.
And my wife suffers horrible migraines and tells me to kill her to make it stop.
WHAT IS YOUR FUKING POINT?
You think YOU got a LOCK on pain and misery?
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Nov 27, 2009 - 11:27pm PT
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is the sh#t flinging still going on?
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Nov 27, 2009 - 11:28pm PT
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maybe a little empathy instead?
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Nov 27, 2009 - 11:39pm PT
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It seems that religion, for some, is a lens that prevents a scientific view of our origins as biological creatures. Still, we're all human. Also, perhaps, acting humanely to each other is simply a practice. It isn't exclusive to any race, religon, or culture. Neither is the opposite of compassion.
Turning the other cheek, passive resistance, love, etc. always seem to win. If it didn't, would we exist as a gregarious species? The practice of empathy, kindness, and compassion seems most difficult when we have little, or when there we suffer, even collectively. Still, I believe that is when we need to practice aloha.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 28, 2009 - 12:59am PT
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Sometimes the kindest is your mortal enemy ......
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Nov 28, 2009 - 01:50pm PT
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i was flirting with god the other day (this day),
you know, just playful.
anyway... she responded and started to come on to me.
it was fukin creepy and i shouted to her:
"i recognize you as a charlatan, basing your message on fear. i am not afraid maddam. you've no fooled me."
so i in turn whispered my message to him, (i cant remember my reciprocal message dammit) and he HEEDED it and told me he would re-write eternity!
wow. i influenced the direction of the WAY-out-THERE horzon that is eternity.
rest assured fellow unwilling participants, it WILL be a pretty story.
one laced with LSD, ummmm... no .... whatever it is that your little mind, as compared to the beyond, appreciates.
onward with the stumble... hold my hand cause it's nekid.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 28, 2009 - 03:01pm PT
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No comment?
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jstan
climber
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Nov 28, 2009 - 03:23pm PT
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Herschel telescope 'fingerprints' colossal star
By Jonathan Amos
Science reporter, BBC News
The death throes of the biggest star known to science have been observed by Europe's new space telescope, Herschel.
The observatory, launched in May, has subjected VY Canis Majoris, to a detailed spectroscopic analysis.
It has allowed Herschel to identify the different types of molecules and atoms that swirl away from the star which is 30-40 times as massive as our Sun.
VY Canis Majoris is some 4,500 light-years from Earth and could explode as a supernova at any time.
It is colossal. If it was sited at the centre of our Solar System, it would extend beyond the orbit of Saturn.
The star, in the constellation Canis Major, has been recorded by astronomers for at least 200 years.
It is what is called a red hyper-giant - a highly evolved object that is exhausting its nuclear fuel.
HERSCHEL SPACE TELESCOPE
The observatory is tuned to see the Universe in the far-infrared
Its 3.5m diameter mirror is the largest ever flown in space
Herschel can probe clouds of gas and dust to see stars being born
It will investigate how galaxies have evolved through time
The mission will end when its helium refrigerant boils off
Its end days see it spew vast quantities of gas and dust into interstellar space, including elements such as carbon, oxygen and nitrogen - the raw materials that will go into the production of future planets, and, who knows, perhaps life elsewhere in the galaxy.
Herschel has trained the spectrometers in its Pacs and Spire instruments on the extensive cloud of material billowing away from the object.
Spectrometers capture and split light into its constituent wavelengths, creating a kind of "fingerprint" that will reveal information on the chemistry of a light source.
Pacs and Spire, for instance, detect copious amounts of carbon monoxide (CO) and water (H2O) in the vicinity of VY Canis Majoris.
"One of the most common molecules you see in this type of observation is carbon monoxide," explained Professor Matt Griffin, the Spire principal investigator from Cardiff University, UK.
"That's because carbon and oxygen are two of the most common materials produced in stars and they like to get together, so interstellar space is full of carbon monoxide. From our CO lines we can measure the temperature of the gas and by comparing them with other lines we can also measure density and optical depth and all kinds of other parameters.
"The other lines we're seeing in abundance in both Pacs and Spire spectra are water. Water is very important astrophysically because it is a diagnostic - it tells us a lot about the physical and chemical processes going on in a gas.
"And of course water cannot be seen from the Earth because there is so much of it in the atmosphere, its signal gets swamped; and that's why we have to go into space to do these kinds of observations."
Herschel studies like this should help to establish a detailed picture of the mass loss from stars and the complex chemistry occurring in their extended envelopes.
Scientists have models to describe what they think happens in stars like VY Canis Majoris and Herschel will give them some "ground truth" to constrain their ideas.
The European Space Agency's billion-euro Herschel observatory was sent into orbit on 14 May on an Ariane rocket. It has been positioned far from Earth to give it an unobstructed view of deep space.
The observatory works at longer wavelengths - in the far-infrared and sub-millimetre range (55 to 672 microns).
This means it can pick up details that are beyond the vision of other telescopes which operate in different parts of the electro-magnetic spectrum, such as Hubble which is tuned to see visible light and the near-infrared.
Herschel is demonstrating it has sensitivity and resolution beyond anything previously sent into to space to work in its particular wavelengths.
Hifi experienced a damaging voltage peak in August
Moreover, there are some parts of the electro-magnetic spectrum that Herschel will show scientists for the very first time.
The mission is now entering routine operations after completing commissioning and demonstration phases. However, its third instrument is currently down after experiencing a fault.
Engineers are expected to upload the software next month needed to reactivate the Heterodyne Instrument for the Far Infrared (HiFi).
The Dutch-led HiFi spectrometer has even better resolution than the Pacs and Spire instruments. A glimpse of its capability is demonstrated in a spectrograph of a comet released on Friday but taken before the shutdown.
The data on Comet Garradd shows up a strong water signal as is expected from an object composed of ice and dust.
Comets will be a key target for HiFi. It will be used to pick out the various chemical elements and molecules - some quite complex - that boil off these objects as they sweep in towards the Sun from the outer Solar System and heat up.
Some of the first science results from Herschel observations are expected in the coming weeks.
"Everything we have done so far, we've done extremely well," said Dr Göran Pilbratt, Herschel's project scientist.
"We have not been able to do everything we wanted because of HiFi, of course; but what we have released today and put on the [Esa website] for instance, you can judge for yourself. I think it is very impressive."
Jonathan.Amos-INTERNET@bbc.co.uk
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 28, 2009 - 03:44pm PT
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"VY Canis Majoris is some 4,500 light-years from Earth and could explode as a supernova at any time."
Or maybe already has and we won't know for 4000 years!
The distances postulated by astronomers seem like a fly in the ointment of those who think the earth is 6000 years old. After all, in Genesis the stars come after the earth and if it takes 20,000 light years for the light of a star to reach Earth and we're already seeing it....Then what?
Literally is usually a dead end when it comes to cosmic
Peace
Karl
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 29, 2009 - 04:12am PT
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jstan-
Thanks for the astronomy post. This thread has it all from Bible quotes to real science. Meanwhile, I can't help but note that two of the recent science events written about - this observation and the Hadron Collider, took place in Europe. I hope that's just a coincidence and not a portent of the decline of basic research in America?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 29, 2009 - 04:35am PT
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And now for my latest find - a book by a genetics professor at Oxford, which is not likely to be welcomed by the evolution crowd on this predominantly male thread. His other books on the genetics of Great Britain and the 7 mitochondrial lineages of women living in Europe, were quite interesting to read. I'm sure this one will be also.
Adam's Curse: A Future without Men by Bryan Sykes
http://www.amazon.com/Adams-Curse-Future-without-Men/dp/0393326802/ref=pd_sim_b_2
………. the last chapters explore the history of male humanity and its future. Some readers will eagerly skim until they reach Chapter 21, where Sykes gets to the heart of the matter--why and how the Y chromosome has created a world where men overwhelmingly own the wealth and power, commit the crimes, and fight the wars.
He uses the structural puniness of the Y chromosome to demonstrate that men are as unnecessary biologically as they are dominant socially………by noting that, as evidenced by declining sperm counts and high percentages of abnormal sperm, among other variables, the Y chromosome is a genetic mess and is deteriorating so quickly that men could become extinct.
Sykes' provocative and quite personal book is likely to be unpopular among science readers who prefer their biology divorced from sociology, but his points taken in context will be difficult to refute.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 29, 2009 - 08:05am PT
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Death sits over our left shoulder, keeps us in line.
Can god say that?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 29, 2009 - 08:07am PT
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"Sometimes the kindest is your mortal enemy ...... "
Proverbs 27:6, Faithful are the wounds of a friend;
profuse are the kisses of an enemy. (deceitful)
The Lord's Chosen Servant, Jesus Christ;
Isaiah 42:1-4, Behold my servant, whom I uphold,
my chosen, in whom my soul delights;
I have put my Spirit upon him;
he will bring forth justice to the nations.
He will not cry aloud or lift up his voice,
or make it heard in the street;
a bruised reed he will not break,
and a faintly burning wick he will not quench;
he will faithfully bring forth justice.
He will not grow faint or be discouraged
till he has established justice in the earth;
and the coastlands wait for his law.
Ephesians1:6-7, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
Matthew 3:17, and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”
Matthew 17:5, He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.”
John 5:31-32, If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not deemed true. There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true.
John 5:37, And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen,
Romans 8:8-9, Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Thru the Bible - Sunday Sermon - Dr. J. Vernon McGee
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/thru_the_bible_sunday_sermon/Archives.asp
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 29, 2009 - 02:32pm PT
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The supremacy of US science since WWII was due to many factors, including that fact that we accepted a large number of the top European and Asian physicists displaced from their homes by first, racial policies and second the occupation of their homelands.
While scientists often point out that science is "international," US scientists point with alarm at the quickly improving international science scene. I think we have to be much more nuanced with our argument. The ascendency of European High Energy Physics was predicted at the time the SSC was terminated in 1992. This delayed the studies of the Higgs particle, and the potential for observing supersymmetry and set back the progress in High Energy Physics by at least a decade.
You may yawn at this, but it will be interesting to view the history of this delay in scientific innovation becoming available for the future. But back on point...
CERN was founded after WWII as a place to rebuild European science, devastated by the anti-semitic policies and the war. The US explicitly opted out of membership in order not to dominate the European scene, this was the recommendation of I.I. Rabi to Eisenhower. While we participate in the science at CERN in a big way, we are not a member state.
Similarly, science in Japan has re-established, and China is just about to come online. The US has to learn how to manage a program which positions itself as preeminent without having to lead and dominate in every aspect of science. It will be a difficult transition for some...
Why bother? Why not pick what is the most relevant and forget about the rest?
The answer to that is we can't tell what will be most relevant to future technologies. For instance, while quantum computing is a long shot, if there were scientific and technological breakthroughs to make it practical it would have huge implications on the political level, potentially opening the door to decrypting all of the encrypted communications...
...so while it might not be likely, it is important to understand it for reasons other than it being beautiful science, the manipulation of nature on the quantum level with great subtlety and finesse.
The potential of "technological surprise," an important aspect of international policy, requires that we are active and aware of all of science... if you don't do that, and decide wrong on what to support, you could be in a bad place.
I don't worry about CERN, I celebrate the realization of a very enlightened, internationalist vision from just after WWII that the US had. The goal of reconstructing a global community so interdependent that the thought of war was anathema. We should try to relearn that lesson, our parents and grandparents and great-grandparents (depending on the reader's age) lived through a very perilous time and not only found a solution for the future, but implemented it in policy. How we could have gone so wildly off course lately will be another interesting history lesson told long after our time... hopefully it will not result in the same calamity visited on the first half of the 20th century.
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jstan
climber
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Nov 29, 2009 - 04:01pm PT
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A great thread, bye the bye.
At the end of his post Ed has succinctly verbalized the sea change of our time which will have to be dealt with for the next thirty to forty years. When a people begins to deviate from its path, correction is very difficult. History has shown us this.
No one can forsee the future but just extrapolating present trends, I can see one scenario. If public education in the US continues its present downward spiral the US will cease to be the presence it once was. The exhaustion of our onshore natural resources will also force us in that direction, especially now that we have visibly demonstrated to the world our inability to create colonies. We have had two straight failures to do this. The bloom is off the rose, so to speak.
I am so very glad I was not one of our people being shot to pieces on Iwo Jima. That it should all come to something this foolish…..
One truly hopeful sign exists. With advancing globalization of trade and our nation’s inability to balance apetite and means, the world now has non-military options never before possessed to the extent they are now. Around 2007 when our erstwhile president, in debt to the Chinese by almost a trillion dollars, went to Bejing and lectured them on human rights, laughter must have been audible across the entire Asian landmass. China, Japan, South Korea, and Europe now have a lot to say about American foreign policy. Were America to begin going too far off track, we can be given long term interest rates of maybe 10% - overnight, with no one even having to pull on their combat boots. American purchases overseas, financed as they were by debt, must continue decreasing and the economies of other nations must necessarily become less dependent upon our purchases. Given good timing, there may be light at the end of this tunnel.
But, one never knows.
The substantial flow of US investment dollars now going offshore, suggests the above are more than imaginings. The flow to us that has allowed our debt to burgeon, is reversing.
It is going to be a long treacherous slog. Get your children into a good school and insist that they work……hard.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-foreign-investing28-2009nov28,0,3004533.story
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 29, 2009 - 08:36pm PT
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To be fair (if that's anyone's goal here) Mencken was a typical 19th century
Baltimorean. Everyone was racist back then. But he also said "The most curious social convention of the great age in which we live is the one to the effect that religious opinions should be respected." So he can't really be a big hero of Skip's anyway.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 29, 2009 - 08:39pm PT
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Here's another:
"True enough, even a superstitious man has certain inalienable rights. He has a right to harbor and indulge his imbecilities as long as he pleases, provided only he does not try to inflict them upon other men by force. He has a right to argue for them as eloquently as he can, in season and out of season. He has a right to teach them to his children. But certainly he has no right to be protected against the free criticism of those who do not hold them. He has no right to demand that they be treated as sacred. He has no right to preach them without challenge."
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 29, 2009 - 08:57pm PT
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so Skipt, I'm loosing the train of your thought in this thread,
You're saying that the "internationalist" policies post WWII were a delusional fantasy?
What should we have done, back then?
of course this is far from the OP topic...
But it would be easiest, perhaps, for all scientists who disagree with Skip to be painted with the brush of "unworthy crap spewers," then we could put to rest these distasteful ideas about Evolution, and the human affects on the climate. Any other problems with science? perhaps those pesky ideas about cosmology, too...
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 29, 2009 - 09:01pm PT
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And because of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
Enter his gates with thanksgiving,
and his courts with praise!
Give thanks to him; bless his name!
For the Lord is good;
his steadfast love endures forever,
and his faithfulness to all generations.
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.1) By John MacArthur
http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Nov 29, 2009 - 09:06pm PT
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does anyone read Gobee's POS scans?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 29, 2009 - 09:07pm PT
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Skipt, you're right, I am a dumb sh#t...
you posted in this thread because you disliked what you thought was an unjustifiable attack on believers by non-believers?
your use of "haters" is pretty strong, I don't think I "hate" anyone, really... I argue a lot, but that isn't hating...
nature - I've stopped looking at the Gobee posts until I can have someone explain the trinitarian doctrine to me, which ever one they believe...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 29, 2009 - 09:19pm PT
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I posted the following about a week ago, to no response from Gobee. Thought I'd try again.
'Gobee' persistently posts excerpts from what he says is a book called "Daily Readings from the Life of Christ", by John MacArthur. I thought it would be interesting to learn about these phenomena, from our friend wiki. (Comments added.)
John MacArthur http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._MacArthur
"MacArthur is a fifth-generation pastor" - Sadly, some mental illnesses are hereditary.
"attended Bob Jones University" - Why am I not surprised?
"MacArthur describes himself as a 'leaky dispensationalist.'" - Not much surprise that his idiotology is leaky.
"has been accused of teaching a form of works-based salvation." - Good heavens! A Christian known by his/her good works! What will they think of next?
Is alleged to be guilty of "Hyper-Calvinism" - Apparently some sort of disagreement about angels and pins, likely between pinheads.
Does not "believe that Roman Catholics are Christian", and that it is "a Satanic religious system that wants to engulf the earth." - Pot to kettle: Black.
"the theology of Islam is false," - The same could be said about all religions.
Oddly, "Daily Readings From the Life of Christ" doesn't seem to be among MacArthur's publications: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_works_by_John_MacArthur
I'll go to the car now.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 29, 2009 - 09:25pm PT
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You can get it from Amazon. Two volumes, no less. Enough to keep Gobee's scanner humming for a long time, unfortunately.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 29, 2009 - 09:52pm PT
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Whatever ...
Now ya all need to tell me why "Intelligent Design" is no good.
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jstan
climber
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Nov 29, 2009 - 09:56pm PT
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We are making a mistake to let Skip engage us on his terms. His use of innuendo and ad hominem attacks is probably life long and he does not even know what he is doing. Until he knows this, we lose focus for no gain.
Ed you raised a critical point as regards the future that will be challenging us. Another ten years down the road, were we to keep traveling it and the dollar keeps declining, more and more businesses in the US will be bought for 20 cents on the dollar by overseas owners and we increasingly will be working for these owners. We will be interfacing with them personally on a one to one basis - in the US. This is already well along in the motel and gasolene distribution industries. In order to have big screen TV's we have sold our country.
In my post I tried, well or ill as you choose, to raise the question what can we do about this - ourselves! Our youth are going to have to be able to compete head to head with other youngsters who have known from an early age that their lives are literally in their hands. You and I have both seen how hard they have worked and the really tremendous talent they have. We are not going to pull them down. We are not going to deny them. We have to stand face to face as equals and together build.
When I was working it was my pleasure to work with Hmong, Viet Namese, Philipino, Chinese, Arab, and others. The intensity, the discipline, and the ferociously applied intelligence of these people saved our Department's ass time and time and time again. Without them and the native-born of a like nature who were in our struggle to deliver, we would not have made it.
So I could do nothing better when I suggested we all need to make demands upon our youngsters.
Their lives are going to be very demanding.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 29, 2009 - 10:02pm PT
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does anyone read Gobee's POS scans?
No, but Gobee's at least polite.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 29, 2009 - 10:18pm PT
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not much of a debate with you Skipt,
what I can count on is being called some name or another, most recently "dumb shit"
but you forward no debating points, you just come in and call everyone a name
it's debate by slander
And what's more, we don't even know who you are, and I don't think we're ever going to know, so you can be some nose picker from the back of the pack (oops, I guess I just called you a name there) just lobbing defamation bombs in as your arguments.
When you actually come up with something to debate perhaps we can engage, but right now you don't have anything, you're mostly annoying.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Nov 29, 2009 - 10:34pm PT
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I suppose suggestion of a group hug might seem gauche and ungraceful at the moment !
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jstan
climber
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Nov 30, 2009 - 12:25am PT
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I am going to be insulting but perhaps not in the expected way. There is something I figured out and think is useful. When I try to talk about something all of you have long known, you have a right to feel insulted. So, right up front I will apologize for what follows.
When trying to discuss ideas with someone, the very last thing you want to do is try to back them into a corner. Strangely, this is the commonly accepted model for what a debate is. When done properly ideas may be advanced as hypotheses, as Roger Breedlove showed us so brilliantly a couple of years ago, and everyone in the discussion should always have a graceful exit. These exits won't actually be used of course, as long as everyone is confident and feels the discussion is productive.
It is a hard rule to follow as everyone, myself included, may fail to do this successfully. But if it can be done successfully then the ideas can get discussed; which is the point of it all.
If I may, without negative connotation give an example. When Skip says, "That's a debate Jstan." he implies the person in conversation with him lacks intelligence. But the charge is indirect and has so little substance no response is assured, generally. Without rancor I have chosen to respond here because it offers an unusually good chance to understand what is happening. Unfortunately such gambits generally make further discussion unsuccessful.
Again my apologies for speaking the obvious.
Edit:
Jan:
I had encountered the Y chromosome story several years ago along with the seven female lines. I rather expect the book you cited uses this to infer how it was sexual reproduction first came into existence. These and the hypotheses that some of the structures in our cells came originally from bacteria form some of the most interesting lines of thought in existence. With the internet now available it is hard to believe I have not dug further.
Oh. There is no conflict here. I merely advanced a hypothesis that seems to help me to understand Skip.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 30, 2009 - 12:40am PT
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How about a truce and we all get a fresh start?
And how come no one's responded to the book on why the male Y chromosome is fragile and in danger of disappearing? It seems the evolutionists on our thread aren't so keen to discuss that aspect of natural selection?
On the other hand, it's hard to believe man was intelligently designed given all the difficulties involved, unless of course one accepts God was experimenting with Adam and came up with the improved version on Eve?
The statistics are pretty grim - more male fetuses miscarried, more male infant deaths, more accidents in adolescence and early adulthood, way more suicides during those years, and then the natural deaths start in early, with men dying 10 years sooner than women on the average.
Maybe the need to think you're right and other men are completely wrong is the response to all this bad news?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 30, 2009 - 12:51am PT
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Thanks Skip, that's the most gracious thing you've said on this thread.
Now if the men could only give each other credit!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 30, 2009 - 01:28am PT
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"until I can have someone explain the trinitarian doctrine to me, which ever one they believe..."
Deuteronomy 6:4, Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Isaiah 45:5-7, I am the Lord, and there is no other,
besides me there is no God;
I equip you, though you do not know me,
that people may know, from the rising of the sun
and from the west, that there is none besides me;
I am the Lord, and there is no other.
I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the Lord, who does all these things.
1 Corinthians 8:4, Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.”
John 4:24, God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Matthew 28:18-20, And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
2 Corinthians 13:14, The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
------------------
Does not "believe that Roman Catholics are Christian", and that it is "a Satanic religious system that wants to engulf the earth." - Pot to kettle: Black.
The Pope, Priest, and Hail Mary, don't save us Jesus does!
...........
"the theology of Islam is false," - The same could be said about all religions."
All religions are false that don't go through Jesus to forgive are sins, Faith in Him alone is what God accepts;
John 14:6, Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
...........
"has been accused of teaching a form of works-based salvation." - Good heavens! A Christian known by his/her good works! What will they think of next?"
Galatians 2:16, yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Galatians 3:10-14, The Righteous Shall Live by Faith
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
Ephesians 2:8-10, For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus or good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Faith Without Works Is Dead
James 2:14-17, What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:18-26, But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
1 Corinthians 1:18, For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written,
1 Corinthians 1:19, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”
1 Corinthians1:20-25, Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 30, 2009 - 05:19am PT
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So Jan, does that mean god really Is, a woman?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 30, 2009 - 05:26am PT
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I always thought God was way beyond gender?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 30, 2009 - 08:40am PT
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Joy Comes with the Morning
A Psalm of David. A song at the dedication of the temple.
Psalm 30, I will extol you, O Lord, for you have drawn me up
and have not let my foes rejoice over me.
2 O Lord my God, I cried to you for help,
and you have healed me.
3 O Lord, you have brought up my soul from Sheol;
you restored me to life from among those who go down to the pit.
4 Sing praises to the Lord, O you his saints,
and give thanks to his holy name.
5 For his anger is but for a moment,
and his favor is for a lifetime.
Weeping may tarry for the night,
but joy comes with the morning.
6 As for me, I said in my prosperity,
“I shall never be moved.”
7 By your favor, O Lord,
you made my mountain stand strong;
you hid your face;
I was dismayed.
8 To you, O Lord, I cry,
and to the Lord I plead for mercy:
9 “What profit is there in my death,
I go down to the pit?
Will the dust praise you?
Will it tell of your faithfulness?
10 Hear, O Lord, and be merciful to me!
O Lord, be my helper!”
11 You have turned for me my mourning into dancing;
you have loosed my sackcloth
and clothed me with gladness,
12 that my glory may sing your praise and not be silent.
O Lord my God, I will give thanks to you forever!
Thru the Bible - Dr. J. Vernon McGee
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/thru_the_bible_with_jvernon_mcgee/Archives.asp
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 30, 2009 - 01:13pm PT
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That's the beauty of Gawd, He, she, or it, is exactly what you want or imagine it to be in any mood at any time.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 30, 2009 - 01:40pm PT
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The Lord reveals Himself:
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Nov 30, 2009 - 04:01pm PT
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some wave a mathic wand to seal the loose seams on the greater and lesser mysteries.
others wave a magic wand and scream that they are right. but their mysteries, greater and lesser, remain defunct.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 30, 2009 - 05:18pm PT
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Could it be this thread is losing it's steam?
Everything must die
But perhaps it will return when some creationist digs up a new skull somewhere?
Peace
Karl
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Nov 30, 2009 - 06:19pm PT
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Wow, go away for a few days and see what you miss!
Many of the Christians posting here were once atheists or agnostics, myself included. That is one reason why all of the scientific arguements have no impact...we have used them ourselves, once upon a time. We also used all the assertions that "It is all in your imagination/subconscious/wishful thinking."
I used to hate Christians and anything to do with Christianity.
Having an in-your-face encounter with God tends to change one's thinking. And as your relationship grows with Christ, you realize it is not about "The Church" or "Religion", it is about a relationship, pure and simple. Many horrible things have been done in the name of Jesus. That is for Him to judge, not me. He will judge, but judgement also includes mercy.
Too many people are too closed-minded when it comes to the idea that there is even the possibility of a spiritual dimension to life. I once was too. That is one of the enemy's greatest weapons, keeping people blind to the spiritual aspects of life. The more people reject the existence of Satan, the more freely he can operate, spreading evil and chaos in the world. Quite a strategy. The most powerful enemy is the one you refuse to see, and don't even think is there.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 30, 2009 - 06:40pm PT
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Too many people are too closed-minded when it comes to the idea that there is even the possibility of a spiritual dimension to life. I once was too. That is one of the enemy's greatest weapons, keeping people blind to the spiritual aspects of life. The more people reject the existence of Satan, the more freely he can operate, spreading evil and chaos in the world. Quite a strategy. The most powerful enemy is the one you refuse to see, and don't even think is there.
I think it's scary that people still believe this stuff.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 30, 2009 - 06:45pm PT
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Hate to break it to you Skippee ol' pal but the Middle Ages are over.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 30, 2009 - 06:51pm PT
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Wow skippee, once again you dazzle us all with your brilliance.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 30, 2009 - 07:14pm PT
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 30, 2009 - 07:40pm PT
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"That is a very bigoted piece you just posted.
It is some of the worst of fake Christian sayings I have seen in a long time."
Edit; I added chapter and verse to my other post!
(Nov 29, 2009 - 10:28pm PT)
Acts 4:11-12 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
This is for everyone John MacArthur, the Pope, me, all of us!
I know there are good and Godly people in all walks of life but we can not save are own self's from sin other wise there wouldn't be any, and you can't say that!
God offers us a free pass in Jesus, I'm taking Him up on it!
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.1) By John MacArthur
http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Nov 30, 2009 - 07:46pm PT
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and i gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know
madness and folly: i percieved that this is also
vexation of spirit.
ecclesiastes.
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MH2
climber
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Ain't gonna bother me if the Y chromosome goes. At least I can't think of any troublesome implications. Although male and unapologetic about it, the defense would seem to be that I didn't choose my gender.
I found this thread worthwhile because of the differing viewpoints. It would not be healthy for everyone to think alike.
My personal belief is that when a scientist has a conversation with nature or a person hears from God or Jesus, they are experiencing the same world in different ways. Until someone starts performing miracles on a consistent basis, as in the Family Guy Jesus episode, I see no need for received religious doctrine.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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This is somewhat off topic from the evolution vs creationism discussion. A few days ago Dr Hartouni posted that the Earths age was 4.5 billion years, a number generally accepted by contemporary earth scientists.
Is anyone familiar with the calculations and papers of astronomer Eugene Poliakow who claims, based on the recession rate of the Moon from the Earth, that the Earth-Moon system cannot be any older than 1.2 billion years?
The Moon is receding from the Earth because the Moon’s gravity causes a small tidal bulge in the Earth and because of Earth’s rotation this bulge leads the Moon. As a result the Moon pulls on the bulge against Earth’s rotation. This speeds up the Moon, while slowing the Earth rotation. This speeding up of the Moon widens its orbit and distance from the Earth.
The recession rate was faster earlier in the Earth/Moon history because of the inverse square law of gravity. Currently the measured rate of the Moons recession is 3.82 centimeters a year. Poliakow’s calculations project that from the current recession rate projected back through time, the Earth/Moon history cannot be older than 1.2 billion years.
That number is 3.4 billion years too recent for the current estimates of uniformitarian geology and interpretations of Earth’s paleontological record.
I wondered if Ed or anyone else had comments on this.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Found a paper:
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayFulltext?type=6&fid=392190&jid=&volumeId=&issueId=&aid=284128#
but no citations... But reading the version quickly, what Poliakow argues is that given his simple model with the dissipative force of tidal action, that the Earth-Moon system could not be older than 1.5 to 1.75 billion years. He is arguing for the "capture hypothesis" of how the system was formed, as opposed to a model where the Moon originates from the Earth.
I can't comment on his model for dissipating the energy, or his particular model of how the Earth captured the Moon. The particular paper is written in 2004, but does not address other hypothesis regarding the formation of the Earth-Moon system.
These are enumerated in the Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon#Origin_and_geologic_evolution
The age of the Moon is determined by radio-isotope dating. This is the latest article:
Originally published in Science Express on 24 November 2005
Science 9 December 2005:
Vol. 310. no. 5754, pp. 1671 - 1674
DOI: 10.1126/science.1118842
REPORTS
Hf-W Chronometry of Lunar Metals and the Age and Early Differentiation of the Moon
Thorsten Kleine,1,2* Herbert Palme,3 Klaus Mezger,1 Alex N. Halliday2,4
The use of hafnium-tungsten chronometry to date the Moon is hampered by cosmogenic tungsten-182 production mainly by neutron capture of tantalum-181 at the lunar surface. We report tungsten isotope data for lunar metals, which contain no 181Ta-derived cosmogenic 182W. The data reveal differences in indigenous 182W/184W of lunar mantle reservoirs, indicating crystallization of the lunar magma ocean 4.527 ± 0.010 billion years ago. This age is consistent with the giant impact hypothesis and defines the completion of the major stage of Earth's accretion.
The major problem with the "giant impact hypothesis" is the similarity of the Earth-Moon isotopic composition... but that would be a bigger problem for a capture hypothesis.
Another problem for capture is dissipating the energy of the collision so that the Moon comes into orbit around the earth. You need some mechanism to "bleed off" angular momentum, otherwise the Moon just flies off into space, energy and momentum conserved. No reasonable mechanism has been identified that allows that to happen.
Reducing the age of the Earth and the Moon to the system's lifetime as calculated by Poliakow has to explain the age determined by the radioisotope dating.
So far the origin of the Earth Moon system is an open question in planetary science.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Thanks, I appreciate the post and the links, Ed. I’d read recently that “capture theory” had been ruled out (by majority of astronomers) for most larger gravitationally locked bodies in the solar system. Perhaps there’s a flaw in Poliakow’s equations that isn’t readily apparent.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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My guess is that the tidal effects are not quite calculated correctly, but I couldn't read the constitutive model that he proposed (symbols didn't reproduce on my browser).
If he got within a factor of 3 it would be impressive.... given the uncertainties in such models.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"My personal belief is that when a scientist has a conversation with nature or a person hears from God or Jesus, they are experiencing the same world in different ways. Until someone starts performing miracles on a consistent basis, as in the Family Guy Jesus episode, I see no need for received religious doctrine."
We all experience via our consciousness. Obviously, if we are Spiritual beings, our consciousness would be our fundamental essence. A scientist might believe their awareness is a exectro-chemical reaction but it is still consciousness. Deeply understanding the root awareness that witnesses the mind brings awakening to experiencing greater dimensions in the miracle of your own being.
It's misguided to look for miracles since the power that is reflected in the laws of nature and creation may not be inclined to go against it's own nature.
Just because the idea of a petty, capricious authority figure in the sky has been fostered on children, colonized people, and used to convert unbelievers, doesn't mean that reality stops at the level of physical energy measured by physical devices.
Peace
Karl
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jstan
climber
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From a post of mine dated 11/29:
“Another ten years down the road, were we to keep traveling it and the dollar keeps declining, more and more businesses in the US will be bought for 20 cents on the dollar by overseas owners and we increasingly will be working for these owners.”
Today’s report on Bloomberg.
Japan Firms May Buy More Overseas Assets as Yen Gains (Update3)
By Takahiko Hyuga and Makiko Kitamura
Dec. 1 (Bloomberg) -- The yen’s surge to a 14-year high may encourage Japanese manufacturers including auto-parts makers and pharmaceutical companies to accelerate acquisitions overseas, said bankers and analysts.
Gains in the currency are also likely to increase mergers at home as Japanese exporters seek to cut costs to offset the rising price of their goods abroad, said Koji Hirai, chief executive officer of M&A advisory Kachitas Corp.
Japanese companies have already taken advantage of the yen’s 30 percent gain against the dollar during the past two years to make more than 800 acquisitions overseas worth $90.8 billion, according to Bloomberg data. Accumulated profits of Japanese companies totaled $3.2 trillion at March 31, up 4 percent from a year earlier, according to a Ministry of Finance survey of 2.8 million firms.
“M&A will happen -- there is a need to switch to a more profitable business model taking advantage of the strong yen,” said Takeshi Miyao, a Tokyo-based supply-chain analyst for auto consultant Carnorama. “There is a very real possibility for acquisitions of European or U.S. companies that are in a weak position because of the financial crisis.”……………….
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=ajVbcEvFkbR4&pos=12
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Not quite getting the connection there, John. This thread has certainly been all over the map, and yet....
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WBraun
climber
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The materialistic modern world still lives in a dark cave completely blind.
They are still in the stone age.
When you take one of these cave people out of their cave the "light" is so blinding they can't see anything and immediately run back to the comfort of their dark cave.
One can not immediately acclimatize to the blinding light of real knowledge as it takes time just as one takes time to acclimatize to "high" altitude.
Everything is very simple, instead, the modern techno-noise-crats make it so complicated with all their toys and bewilder themselves to death .....
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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what I think is the crux of the current argument:
we have science
we have religion
each claim a domain of belief, knowledge, tradition and culture (which can be heterogeneous, as there are many religions and many sciences)
where science and religion intersect depends, in many ways, on the heterogeneity of both
If you posit that there is no priority of one over the other, that is, one is not more valid then the other, you have no resolution of the argument: "which has priority?" in the domain of intersection
Science people will say science has priority everywhere
Religious people will say religion has priority everywhere
Those trying to soothe the differences will say they are different aspects of the same thing
No resolution is possible, in the end, as it comes down to what you believe in...
however, science produces new knowledge, religion provides an understanding of old knowledge
science is provisional, religion is absolute
science appeals to our reason, religion to our need for meaning
My guess is that it is all apart of this complicated evolutionary adaptation.. we think all these things because that's the way we're wired... and that wiring is a result of our species' inheritance from proceeding species, back to the origin of life on the planet...
...I understand that others have a different way to look at it.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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I thought it was about a baseball game.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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...religion to our need...
In a nutshell.
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jstan
climber
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Cintune:
One of the main components of this thread is the claim that if we let god into our hearts all problems will be solved for us. On the 29th I posited a scenario for the future. That future increasingly involves businesses and other activities being owned by overseas interests. Now god may intend us to become a colony controlled by other nations, but I do not believe we will consider that an answer to anything.
Today's update is a report that the weakened dollar is now permitting much increased purchases here by foreign interests.
We are so confused in the US we can't even see that the ground itself is slipping out from beneath us.
There is going to be a lot of wailing and praying to god.
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WBraun
climber
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Nah
Everyone trapped in the dark cave, both the religionists and the scientists.
Got light?
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WBraun
climber
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Devolving
Everyone is trying to kill each other in the world today.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Thanks John, I see what you mean now. Best worst-case scenario I've heard is that the global meltdown apocalypse is going to come down to the street gangs vs. the farmers, with a good chance of the farmers ultimately winning. Which brings in the idea of fundie wish-fulfillment: If our crazy pluralistic global society can be effectively decimated, then reverting to old-time religion will become a matter of course because it's been proven to work best for small, tightly-knit groups teetering on the edge of survival.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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From; 12/01/2009 The Character of God's Word
11/30/2009 The Character of God's Word
http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
The Bible affirms one of the basic laws of science which is called the first law of thermodynamics...the first law of thermodynamics is the conservation of mass and energy. That is to say all mass and energy that exists is perpetuated. In other words, from an evolutionary standpoint they would say...well once there was this little piece of mass and this little piece of energy and it just kept going and going and going and going and going and going and going. What science knows, however, if it's honest with its data is that there is mass and energy and it is conserved at the same amount. It came into existence at that amount and it remains at that amount. That can be explained by the creation. That can be explained in the Scripture. Energy doesn't go out of existence. Mass doesn't go out of existence. It alters its forms, but it doesn't go out of existence.
Listen to what Isaiah said, Isaiah the prophet. Verse 26 of chapter 40, "Behold, who has created these things? He calls them all by names by the greatness of His might for He is strong in power, not one of them fails." There's the conservation of mass and energy, the first law of thermodynamics. Nehemiah 9:6, "Thou hast made heaven, the earth and all things therein, the seas and all things therein and Thou preservest them all." Ecclesiastes 1:10, "Is there anything of which it may be said...See, this is new? No, it has already been from of old." The Bible knows that.
The Bible also affirms the second law of thermodynamics. The second law of thermodynamics says this...while there is the conservation of mass and energy, the atoms that make up that mass and energy tend toward disorder, break down into chaos so that the longer the universe exists the more chaotic it tends to become. I'm waiting for some scientist to get a grip on this and apply it to the study of things like cancer. I sometimes wonder if the escalation of cancer isn't part of the realization of the beginning of the disordering of the normal structured order of atoms as they begin to break down. Who knows what other things may come. That's purely a hip shot from me but there is a breaking down of order into disorder, breaking down of structure into chaos. That's the second law of thermodynamics. It's the law of increasing disorder. And it disproves evolution alone because it says things start from order and go to disorder, not starting from disorder and ascending to order.
You say, "Well then why don't...why do they believe in evolution?" Because they don't want a God who is a creator because if they have a God who is a creator they know there are moral laws and they'd have to live by them or be under His judgment. So the easiest way is to eliminate Him...they think. There is never a real loss of mass, there is never a real loss of energy, but there is a declining ability of it to produce because it breaks down and order becomes disorder...all processes will ultimately wind down and cease and the universe ultimately go out of existence. The Bible is very clear about this. In Romans 8 it presents this to us in very clear terms. Listen to what the Apostle Paul wrote before any scientist had come up with that. "The creation was subjected to nothiningness." In other words, there was a point in time at the fall of man when the creation was cursed and subjected to a process of futility or emptiness, not of its own will but because of Him who subjected in hope. When God originally created it, it had perpetuity and order. But because of sin and the curse it has disorder and was subjected by God to this futility. The creation itself then is slave to corruption. And verse 22 of Romans 8 says it groans and suffers the pains of that corruption. The whole universe is experiencing this disarray. When the Bible talks about scientific things it is exceedingly accurate about them...
"Everyone trapped in the dark cave, both the religionists and the scientists. Got light?"
John 8:12, Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.1) By John MacArthur
Upper East Buttress, El Cap
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I forgot to say, but Werner contributed..
that Werner will remind us that we're not looking in the right place if we're looking....
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Gobee, do you know how bizarre your post is?
Do you even know what thermodynamics is about?
That it is an approximation describing the behavior of large numbers of atoms in equilibrium?
The zeroth, first, second and third laws of thermodynamics do not hold in non-equilibrium situations. It would be interesting to read what the Bible has to say about that... please provide the scripture.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Gobee- "Upper E. Buttress EL Cap".
Nice shot! Well past the 5.10 crux. J. Long must have some fond memories of that view.
Ed- How do you get something from nothing? What does science say? Perhaps you already answered this one(I have missed allot of these posts).
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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"You can't argue with crazy"
Also sprach the wife.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Bump to you Locker, at least your there for your kid's!!!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Science are the notes, God is the music, both from the hand of God!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Locker!
Is that the same daughter that just had surgery? Sounds like she is back to her good old self!
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MH2
climber
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Also on this thread I see what looks to me like a fair amount of agreement, limited a little by imprecise and insufficient exposition. Certainly I don't have the time or talent to write exactly what circulates in my head.
I usually understand what Karl is saying, but
Deeply understanding the root awareness that witnesses the mind brings awakening to experiencing greater dimensions in the miracle of your own being.
I find that sentence hard to parse.
There is an age-old disposition in humankind to feel that there are strange forces at work, either helping us or punishing us. Long ago, phenomena like seasonal weather changes, eclipses, volcanos, tidal waves, disease, drought, flood, locust plagues, and such could be interpreted as interventions by a being or beings with supernatural powers. As miraculous, say. As people have learned more about what goes on around them, the realm for the supernatural has shrunk. This shouldn't take the bloom off the rose. Calling our consciousness the result of electrochemical activity is far from a complete description. It's just a start. Why would having an electrochemical basis diminish our mental experience in any way?
When I say God and Nature are the same thing I mean it literally, although to me it looks like God and religious/spritual belief is a part of Nature and not the other way around. Some of you appear to be on the other side of the looking glass. There may be disagreement on how we talk about this but I don't see conflict unless I get forced to convert.
Or to teach Creationism in the schools as a theory on a par with evolution.
WWAD
What Would Ardi Do?
Probably bust up at what his sorta-descendants spend time doing.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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MH wrote
"I usually understand what Karl is saying, but
Deeply understanding the root awareness that witnesses the mind brings awakening to experiencing greater dimensions in the miracle of your own being.
I find that sentence hard to parse."
The bottom line is this.
We dont "Have" a Soul, we ARE a soul. What is the Soul like? Obviously consciousness. How could we be other than consciousness?
We are distracted from knowing our soul because the soul is the experiencer and not ultimately the object of it's awareness. The mind is the Object of the soul's awareness. We are constantly witnessing the dialog in our minds and after years and finally decades, we think the flow of our mind is "us"
Ain't so. Watch it enough with some objectivity and detachment and see, you are not the mind. This is the beginning of being your real self instead of the made up identity that happens to us via our life experience.
PEace
Karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Exactly where do you folks shoehorn interdimensional Bigfoots and ufos into the grand schematic of intelligent design?
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jstan
climber
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We tend to think the voice in our head is us. (I'll ask again. If you have never learned a language, are you still you?)
I had fun once with an experience designed to produce stress and lack of sleep. When the alarum woke me up after two hours of sleep, I heard a new voice saying, "I told you not to listen to him!"
And no. To my knowledge I have not murdered anyone.
That is the only time I have had two voices.
The key is I realized it was a different voice.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Life elsewhere in our Universe or on another planet in our Solar System gives me no problems with my Christian faith. In fact I expect it. Where is Heaven and all the Heavenly Hosts? Not on Earth. Somewhere else other than Earth and very wonderful. Read your Bible and the Book of Enoch. The abode of GOD is unbelievably fantastic.
Where ever life is, even the smallest most remote microbial extremophile forms throughout the Universe, GOD started it. No matter if you believe and have faith in classic evolution (at some point you do have to exercise faith even if you are a hard-core 14+ Billion year evolutionist since much of it is untestable and not witnessed), or you believe and have faith in creation and believe in a 6000 year creation. I am a Theistic Evolutionist, if I had to say one way or another.
I expect life on Mars, the bible says so. KJV Bible Code eludes to it, so I would expect us to find it. All the scientific evidence is certainly pointing that way. No surprise. http://revelation13.net/KingJames12a.html
From another post but worth posting here:
EBE disclosure just happened November, 2009, but no one was paying much attention! You had to know they would slip it in disguised and uneventful like this. Well, its one way of doing things I suppose. No, "War Of The Worlds" mass hysteria . . .
The meteoritics world was paying attention, and the meteorite world is all abuzz again about the possible fossilized evidence of microbial life within the carbonates of the Mars meteorite ALH84001.
The famous Mars meteorite ALH84001 is back in the news, and maybe it really does have the bio-signatures of fossilized extremophile cryptoendolithic microbial life after all in the form of Magentite nanocrystals.
They have invalidated the abiotic methods of the origins of the magnetite nanocrystals in Martian meteorite ALH84001, leaving other methods of their origin such as biogenesis intact.
Martian meteorite surrenders new secrets of possible life
BY CRAIG COVAULT
SPACEFLIGHT NOW
Posted: November 24, 2009
http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0911/24marslife/
"The document is part of the November issue of the respected journal Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta, the journal of the Geochemical and Meteoritic Society.
Its authors are Kathie Thomas-Keprta, Simon Clement, David McKay (who led the original team), Everett Gibson and Susan Wentworth, all of the Johnson Space Center. Keprta is the principal author. Although led by a Johnson Space Center team, the additional evidence for Martian life in the Allen Hills meteorite has been an open topic for the last several weeks in astrobiology division halls at the NASA Ames Research Center near San Francisco and at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena. It's hot news.
The new work centers on so-called magnetic bacteria that on Earth, and apparently Mars as well, leave distinctively-shaped remnants in the rock. In addition the features test with a high chemical purity more like a biological feature than geological. These are just like the magnetite-related life forms found in the meteorite believed to represent Martian life forms, says Dr. Dennis Bazylinski, who peer reviewed the new findings. He also studies such Earth life forms in his laboratory at the University of Nevada at Las Vegas.
"I think the paper is really excellent. I have no trouble with the paper," Bazylinski told Spaceflight Now.
"I work on magnetic bacteria, and one indication there was life on ancient Mars are these particular magnetite crystals in the meteorite that look like they came out of magnetic bacteria. At first [when the data was reported in 1996], I thought there might have been an error. I have no doubt about that now. I know there is no error," Bazylinski stressed.
"The big question is can these things [magnetite crystals] be reliable magneto fossils, and that is a matter of debate."
But it turns out that the magnetic bacteria make some very unique shapes of magnetite crystals. And one of the organisms we work with on Earth makes particles that look virtually identical to what we see from Mars in the meteorite."
For the original 47 page research paper see:
http://www.geochemsoc.org/publications/gcajournal/
Origins of magnetite nanocrystals in Martian meteorite
ALH84001
K.L. Thomas-Keprta a,*, S.J. Clemett a,*, D.S. McKay b, E.K. Gibson b,
S.J. Wentworth a
aESCG at NASA/Johnson Space Center, Houston, TX 77058, USA
b KR, ARES, NASA/Johnson Space Center, Houston, TX 77058, USA
Received 20 July 2008; accepted in revised form 18 May 2009; available online 16 June 2009, published in gca journal November 24, 2009
From the actual research article:
"Abstract
The Martian meteorite ALH84001 preserves evidence of interaction with aqueous fluids while on Mars in the form of
microscopic carbonate disks. These carbonate disks are believed to have precipitated 3.9 Ga ago at beginning of the Noachian
epoch on Mars during which both the oldest extant Martian surfaces were formed, and perhaps the earliest global oceans.
Intimately associated within and throughout these carbonate disks are nanocrystal magnetites (Fe3O4) with unusual chemical
and physical properties, whose origins have become the source of considerable debate. One group of hypotheses argues that
these magnetites are the product of partial thermal decomposition of the host carbonate. Alternatively, the origins of magnetite
and carbonate may be unrelated; that is, from the perspective of the carbonate the magnetite is allochthonous. For
example, the magnetites might have already been present in the aqueous fluids from which the carbonates were believed to
have been deposited. We have sought to resolve between these hypotheses through the detailed characterization of the compositional
and structural relationships of the carbonate disks and associated magnetites with the orthopyroxene matrix in
which they are embedded. Extensive use of focused ion beam milling techniques has been utilized for sample preparation.
We then compared our observations with those from experimental thermal decomposition studies of sideritic carbonates
under a range of plausible geological heating scenarios. We conclude that the vast majority of the nanocrystal magnetites present
in the carbonate disks could not have formed by any of the currently proposed thermal decomposition scenarios. Instead,
we find there is considerable evidence in support of an alternative allochthonous origin for the magnetite unrelated to any
shock or thermal processing of the carbonates.
2009 Published by Elsevier Ltd."
"5. SUMMARY AND CONCLUSIONS
Two heating scenarios described herein provide the geological
context for the decomposition models developed
independently by Brearley (2003) and Treiman (2003).
These models are contradictory; that is, they cannot both
have occurred since application of one model negates the
applicability of the other. The first is based on carbonate
decomposition occurring under “extreme disequilibrium
conditions” in which “kinetics are the dominant controlling
factor” determining the chemical and physical nature of the
magnetites that are formed. Although never explicitly addressed,
this model is most consistent with the impact event
that ejected ALH84001 from Mars. In the second model,
carbonate decomposition occurs “at some depth beneath
the Martian surface where the pressure was greater than
the atmospheric pressure and the temperature declined
slowly.” However, based on kinetic and thermodynamic
arguments, both models proposed for the high temperature,
inorganic formation of ALH84001 magnetite would not
have produced the results observed in ALH84001 carbonate
disks. ALH84001 carbonate assemblages can be best explained
as the result of low temperature, disequilibrium precipitation
from a single fluid with variable composition or from
multiple fluids. Nanophase magnetite and Fe-sulfides were
suspended in fluids that formed the disk cores and rims.
After deposition ALH84001 carbonate disks were exposed
to multiple fluids containing amorphous silica, additional
nanophase magnetite, and S- and Fe-rich phases, some of
which were deposited in veins. While the majority of
ALH84001 magnetites were deposited in silica enriched
rims and veins, some are also distributed throughout the
cores and within the magnesite bands. Most magnetites
are chemically pure, although a few contain minor Al/Cr.
Their presence is inconsistent with formation by thermal
decomposition of their host carbonate. We suggest that
the majority of ALH84001 magnetites has an allochthonous
origin and was added to the carbonate system from
an outside source. This origin does not exclude the possibility
that a fraction is consistent with formation by biogenic
processes, as proposed in previous studies."
**"Most magnetites are chemically pure, although a few contain minor Al/Cr. Their presence is inconsistent with formation by thermal decomposition of their host carbonate. We suggest that the majority of ALH84001 magnetites has an allochthonous origin and was added to the carbonate system from
an outside source. This origin does not exclude the possibility that a fraction is consistent with formation by biogenic processes, as proposed in previous studies."**
Well, there you have it. So how does it feel?
We have known for a long time (since 1976 Viking Mission when we first detected the metabolism of life within the Mars soil, although many will say that experiment was inconclusive) that life existed on Mars at least at some point in its geologic past, if not currently. Too many signs pointing to life's positive probablity on Mars for it not too be so.
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Locker,
I don't know you or your daughter, but if it is OK with you, I will pray for her recovery and return to full health. I'm sure others on here are as well.
You sound like an awesome dad. Kudos to you.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Locker- "Same daughter...ONLY daughter..."
Yea, that's what I remembered you saying. And I remember the picture of you, your son and her. But you kind of threw us a curve with the X raising one and so forth...I get confused so easily these days.
Well, it is still relatively early and it is good to have the antibiotics daily to fight/prevent any possible infection setting in(precautionary protocol).
But I certainly understand your concern, thanks for the update.
EDIT:And I am with Bronwyn! I will also continue with prayers. I am sure she is in good hands and will be totally well soon.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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MH2- "I don't see conflict unless I get forced to convert".
It would be impossible to "force" someone to convert(except Christ as their Lord and Savior). Could anyone force you to love someone? Could you force someone to love you? It just doesn't work that way.
You could go to church, get baptised, go to all the functions and tithe etc. just to please someone else. Or just in case it is true, or to feel good about yourself. Then you would be like the ones that say "Many will say to me in that day Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name'? And then I will declare to them; 'I never new you, depart from me...". "My sheep know my voice and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish..." John 10:27-28. The following of the sheep is a metaphor for faith. "To know Him, is to love Him". To truly know yourself and all that He has forgave you of, and paid the penalty for on the cross, then you will truly love Him.
We can tell you, about Him through the Word that He spoke. Only you can look at your own self through what He says about mankind "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".
He convicts all in regards to their own sin(Tiger woods just admitted that he sinned in his adultery and asked for forgiveness). Jesus said that we are guilty of adultry if we just look at a woman and lust for her!
Tiger Woods and everyone else need to confess to God and ask His forgiveness. Everyone has to come to that decision on his own. No one can "force" you to convert, or ever will be able to force you to do that MH2.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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jstan
Good question about whether we need language to be ourselves or to be human. Blame Descartes and his "I think therefore I am" for skewing western culture toward verbalism, and bit by bit, sequential thinking.
There have been several examples of feral children who were abandoned and rescued (most often by dogs) who were past the age of five when found. The experience has been that they were never able to acquire language, but no one questioned that they were human even though some of them displayed canine characteristics their whole life (preferring to walk on all fours, howling at the moon etc.) They just couldn't utilize their brains to a complete human potential.
In comparison to people in East Asia, who write with Chinese characters, neither do Westerners. Studies of people with brain injuries show that left brain damage ends the ability to speak and write in the West. In East Asia, one loses the ability to speak and write in the alphabetic systems, but one is still able to read and draw Chinese characters which are symbolic and wholistic. The Eastern brain has been trained to utilize both halves of the brain for writing and can communicate quite well without words.
Likewise, the abacus system of beads is always faster than an electronic calculator in any contests that are done. The fastest calculators in the world are from China and Japan and when wired with electrodes, their brains light up on the right side, not the left as do Western calculators. They're faster even without abacus or calculator because it's more efficient to close their eyes and picture beads flying back and forth than remember individual numbers.
Relating this to evolution, it's just one small indicator that we only use a fraction of our brain, that our culture skews which fractions we use, and that there's a great deal we don't know. There is certainly room for spiritual uses that have barely begun to be measured.
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jstan
climber
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Jan:
Sorry to pulse you a second time with that question. It was just very relevant to the topic and I was sure no one would remember it. In any event thanks. Your answer this time, just like the last one, has lots of new and good information.
We have long had the nature versus nurture question and I am beginning to think language itself is an evolutionary adaptation intended to empower cohabitation by groups of homo sapiens. Language probably started out as grunts and evolved within each habitation group. So we have lots of languages. If you look at the number of active languages I would expect it to show a rate of decrease dependent upon the number of air miles logged in during jet travel. It certainly was decreased as a result of the defeat of the Spanish Armada. Habitation groups are now becoming virtually global.
It is not a huge step to ask if some of the subjects discussed on this thread are not also evolutionary adaptations.
John
PS
It would be really interesting to know what characteristic developed by the homo sapien brain permitted language to develop as it has. Children pick up language almost on first exposure. At that age it seems this is the first requirement our brains were designed to meet.
Now all we need to do is expand that design criteria to include differential equations.
There are other practices to which very young children are exposed in the hope this acculturalization will happen. I can't off hand point to an example, but I am sure there are adaptations during childhood that can never be escaped, even in adulthood.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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John-
Brain research and linguistics are two of my favorite topics. You just provided the excuse to write about them! And of course, language acquisition is directly related to evolution.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Locker- "assumption were made".
Locker when I said "curve" I thought maybe their might have been a second daughter with another wife. Didn't I say I was confused!
I have no clue about any spat. I have been away for about a week and just read this last page. I will go back and see what
By throwing a curve I was not insinuating anything negative. Perhaps curve holds some connotation that I didn't mean for it to hold here.
And when you say I DO see how one...... I don't know what you are alluding to me making a mistake about. It was pretty clear that you just raised your son from what you said there, but I have no idea about how much time you spent with either one.
Both my sisters married at 16 and by the time they were 21 were living with me, my brother, mother, father their four kids(10 people) all in a small two bedroom bungalow for five years. And down the road I ended up being 'guardian' to each of them at one time or another. Raising kids is no easy task and it seems as though you have done a good job of it.
My nephew(Bobbie)ran away from home at age 12. I was his guardian from the age of 15-17. The kid was a full on meth addict(mainlining) at that time. Later went to the meth pipe.
My other nephew (Norman, Bobs older brother) crisscrossed America (from Washington to Texas to the Great Lakes back down to Florida for three weeks(3 round trips)saying the FBI was after him. He was a contractor and had a nervous breakdown and lost everything. We eventually tracked him down to Fallon Nevada. For five years he lived on the streets of Las Vegas, a full blown alcoholic. He told me about meeting B. Westbay in Co. at an AA meeting he had to attend weekly. He told my nephew he needed a new liver and also told him about his life as a climber.
There father, a Viet Nam Vet(two tours of duty, Sargent, with two purple hearts and a silver star)was found dead at the age of 29, of a heroin over-dose. My sisters three kids have never forgiven him for that.
My other sisters husband abandoned her and her son(ROY) when he was 4 yrs old. Sent a lousy fifty bucks a month to his mother untel Roy was 18. Never sent a birthday card, a call to say hello, not sh#t. About five years ago(when Roy was 36) He finally tracked down my nephew(after about 5 years of searching for him) and wanted to apologize to him. My nephew said no way, he hated his guts and never wanted to see him. That was over five years ago. And I don't believe Roy will ever forgive his dad, a father he never new.
These are my 'kids'! I changed their diapers when they were infants, and baby sat them while my sisters worked their asses of at minimum wage jobs.
I could write a damn book about it. I haven't even mentioned my niece who I was a guardian for when she was 17-18. Her boy friend (17) cuts his wrist and drinks a quart of finger nail polish and lighter fluid. And just as I walk into the apartment, sticks a ten inch blade butcher knife into his stomach. Evidently I saved his life that night(I was 29 yrs old).
Like you said this is a climbers forum and not the place for this. Well I agree. When I first came to this sight it was for just that. And one thing is for sure we are all climbers of one caliber or another. I didn't start this thread that starts with the title "Creationist..." But I damn sure am a "CREATIONIST". So spit it out, what is it that you don't like about ANYTHING I have to say? I am all ears! They are every bit as big as yours in that picture.
I was simply complimenting you on how well you raised your kids. And thought you put another angle or "curve" into your life that I didn't know about when I misinterpreted the second daughter/wife thing.
Neither me or my younger brother(he has a masters degree/school teacher) have any kids, we went through hell with or six nephews and nieces. You havn't heard 1/100th of it. And I have already said to much.
We regret not having or own sons and daughters now(it is the end of or family name). The very first thing I asked God for at 18 years old was for a wife and children. That would have been considered my hearts desire for over forty years. It never happened. And like Paul says "I count it all rubish, compared to gaining Christ". But it was my fault it never happened, end of story.
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MH2
climber
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TripL7
No one can "force" you to convert, or ever will be able to force you to do that MH2.
I'm glad we agree(?) that force should not be used to get someone to accept a particular religious view.
During the Selective Service era in the States I applied for Conscientious Objector status. There was a requirement that to be granted such status you must declare a belief in a Supreme Being. I was not willing to do that. Thanks to help from the Society of Friends in Buffalo, NY, my application was successful, anyway. In Texas, though, pretty much every applicant whose application was not granted and who still refused induction was sentenced to 5 years in jail.
Even though by "convert", you probably mean something internal, it is the external force that's bad, like your brother worrying about getting fired for not believing in evolution. He should be free to believe what he wants. He should be free to say what he believes. But he shouldn't teach Creationism in a public school in the same way that chemistry, physics, or biology are taught.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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The Lord by wisdom founded the earth;
by understanding he established the heavens;
by his knowledge the deeps broke open,
and the clouds drop down the dew.
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roadman
climber
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intelligent design err creationism is not a theory. it's the crap you scrap off the side walk, put in a pile and burn. no no it's lower than that.... it's definitely rotten and smells and oh you get the point.
you guys who "believe" in that crap need help. It must be some kind of super ego that makes you think you know more then the HUGE wall of evidence that is evolution. don't you know that 1.2 billion catholics can't be wrong!
NEWSBRIEF: Chicago Tribune, Friday, 10/25/96, "POPE BOLSTERS CHURCH SUPPORT FOR EVOLUTION", by Stevenson Swanson, Tribune Staff Writer, Dateline: New York.
"In a major statement of the Roman Catholic Church's position on the theory of evolution, Pope John Paul II has proclaimed that the theory is 'more than just a hypothesis' and that evolution is compatible with Christian faith. In a written message to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, the pope said the theory of evolution has been buttressed by scientific studies and discoveries since Charles Darwin ... "It is indeed remarkable that this theory has progressively taken root in the minds of researchers following a series of discoveries made in different spheres of knowledge', the pope said in his message Wednesday. 'The convergence, neither sought nor provoked, of results of studies undertaken independently from each other constitutes, in itself, a significant argument in favor of this theory..."
"If taken literally, the Biblical view of the beginning of life and Darwin's scientific view would seem irreconcilable. In Genesis, the creation of the world, and Adam, the first human, took six days. Evolution's process of genetic mutation and natural selection-the survival and proliferation of the fittest new species-has taken billions of years, according to scientists ..."
"The Pope's message went much further in accepting the theory of evolution as a valid explanation of the development of life on Earth, with one major exception: the human soul. 'If the human body has its origin in living material which preexists it, the spiritual soul is immediately created by God', the Pope said."
sucka...
edit: as an evolutionary scientist I find it 1) funny you think this is the place to discus this, 2) funny you think you know sh#t about science in general or a complex fundamental part of all science like evolution, 3) funny none of you who have "deep" understanding of current evolutionary science (yeah right) call up the interconnected nature of evolution and all other sciences ie. geology, astronomy, oceanography, etc.
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roadman
climber
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saw that article... kinda strange bed fellows. But, hey when you're that wrong I'd bet they'll take what they can get. errr unless they kill each other! Seems like that's a big goal with those two?!?!
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roadman
climber
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holy hot pockets that's a messed up picture...
I've messed with the genes of lots of plants and critters to force some evolutionary changes, but none's ever turned out like that!!!!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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MH2- "He shouldn't teach Creationism in a public school...".
Actually he isn't teaching Creationism, and I don't believe he would. He doesn't teach science or biology, and the subject of evolution never occurs(he teaches special ed students).
To bad about the situation in Texas(don't believe in God=5 years in prison). I don't think Jesus(who I believe is God)would agree with that kind of punishment. Kind of doubt if anyone who experienced that(5 yrs in prison)would ever believe in God afterwards.
Fortunately, He gives most people a life time to come to their own conclusions. Which results in separation from Him for eternity if they don't believe(He is not going to "force" someone to spend eternity with Him).
One of my best friends in high school invited me to spend the weekend at his house, and I did. I had become a Christian about a month before that, and had spoke briefly with my other 3-4 best friends in regard to my conversion, but not him. I had a feeling that was one of the reasons he invited me over. I never brought the subject up. I was more apt to let them ask if they were so inclined. Plus Ronnie was the one who chain smoked, slept with the guys wife who lived across the street from him when he was out of town(the husband was in the Navy)etc. etc. I had wrote him off perhaps, or maybe I was just waiting. Probably a little of both as best as I can recall.
The following Saturday morning one of my other good friends called me to let me know that Ronnie had "dropped dead at work". He had a genetic heart defect. My friends later informed me that Ronnie had been disturbed about the fact that I had taken the time to share with them and not him, and had been hoping that I would, and they believed that was the reason he had invited me over that weekend.
They said that for the most part he just joked about it "He knows I'm going to hell anyway, to late for me Hahaha..."! Ronnie was only 18 years old. That was 1968. I will meet God some day(as I believe we all will) and I am pretty sure Ronnie will come up in our conversation.
The reason I brought this story up was because you mentioned the Selective Service era, and it reminded me of similar choices my close friends and I were pondering right before we graduated from high school(Ronnie died a week after graduation) and it brought back some memories. And also because I had mentioned that "He gives most people a lifetime to come to there own conclusions"...but not everyone. That fact was regrettably brought to my attention with the lost of my friend.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Locker!
OK! I admit I made a mistake and assumed something. what did I assume?? I can't remember!(I also did that a couple of weeks ago on the 'death mongering' thread if you recall) So I am sorry. I am not even sure what I was talking about myself. I think I was just fed up with life(and myself)when I wrote that stuff LATE last night(I'm over it).
PIECE, Trip~
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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somehow I think that this post has evolved to the level of Locker's humor in quite an appropriate manner...
Piece to you Locker!
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MH2
climber
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somehow I think that this post has evolved to the level of Locker's humor in quite an appropriate manner...
Don't you mean thread?
You still have us throwbacks, though.
Karl
The bottom line is this.
We dont "Have" a Soul, we ARE a soul. What is the Soul like? Obviously consciousness. How could we be other than consciousness?
jstan
We tend to think the voice in our head is us. (I'll ask again. If you have never learned a language, are you still you?)
I sure hope I'm not the voice in my head. What would you call Helen Keller before Annie Sullivan taught her sign language?
Besides, my thinking is more of the kinesthetic sort, as though my brain is rearranging something like a set of soma cubes, building different shapes, or turning objects to see what they look like from various viewpoints.
And as a student of neuroscience I know that my conscious awareness is only a tiny fraction of what my brain is doing.
I still find parts of this thread useful but it takes time to suss out relations among the interesting ideas.
I respect Karl and quite a few other people like him who hold ideas which seem strange to me. In a lot of spritualism/mysticism it seems that the useful aspects come from simply accepting an idea, whereas trying to explain where the idea came from or why it is held or in what way it is true is like saying the world rests on the back of a turtle, and that turtle on another turtle, etc., which is fine. The Darwinian God was inordinately fond of beetles and the forces of spirit may be fond of turtles.
On the language issue the blocks are still in motion.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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777 wrote
"The following Saturday morning one of my other good friends called me to let me know that Ronnie had "dropped dead at work". He had a genetic heart defect. My friends later informed me that Ronnie had been disturbed about the fact that I had taken the time to share with them and not him, and had been hoping that I would, and they believed that was the reason he had invited me over that weekend.
They said that for the most part he just joked about it "He knows I'm going to hell anyway, to late for me Hahaha..."! Ronnie was only 18 years old. That was 1968. I will meet God some day(as I believe we all will) and I am pretty sure Ronnie will come up in our conversation."
You shouldn't be so hard on God for the misinterpretations of Man. I can hear it now
"yo God, remember my friend Ronnie? You're not really burning him in Hell for trillions of years cause I didn't prosteletize to him before he died? Maybe you could let him out after a few hundred and call it good?"
God "Dude, you really think I torture people for eternity because they didn't accept some belief on blind faith when few people on earth have any clue of what I'm really like? Give me some credit bro! Ronnies chillin at the pool with some angels"
Peace
Karl
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roadman
climber
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"The following Saturday morning one of my other good friends called me to let me know that Ronnie had "dropped dead at work". He had a genetic heart defect. My friends later informed me that Ronnie had been disturbed about the fact that I had taken the time to share with them and not him, and had been hoping that I would, and they believed that was the reason he had invited me over that weekend.
They said that for the most part he just joked about it "He knows I'm going to hell anyway, to late for me Hahaha..."! Ronnie was only 18 years old. That was 1968. I will meet God some day(as I believe we all will) and I am pretty sure Ronnie will come up in our conversation."
God's the one who put the "defect" there. right.
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roadman
climber
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"You can't prove there's no God, no fairies, no leprechauns, or that Thor or Apollo don't exist. There's got to be a positive reason to think that fairies exist. Until somebody does, we can say technically we are agnostic about fairies. We can't disprove them, but we think it's a bit of a waste of time trying. And the same goes for God."
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roadman
climber
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Compassionate Darwinism
Speaking from a psychological perspective, Ekman will describe Darwin's fascinating views on human compassion and morality--which are little known and often misunderstood.
"Most people and even most scientists, when they think of Darwin, think of his theory as having offered an explanation for a kind of ruthless selfishness and competitiveness," he explained.
But in the The Descent of Man, Ekman said, Darwin devotes several chapters to the subject of compassion in evolution.
"Darwin believed compassion was selected for in societies," he said. "Since we are social animals and by and large have to work together on major tasks, those societies in which compassion flourished, to use the Buddhist term, could produce more viable offspring."
Ekman noted that this concept is in some ways a forbearer of the group selection theory, a once almost-universally dismissed concept that some scientists are considering anew.
A look at different types of compassion, Ekman explained, also poses interesting questions which are quite relevant to the 21st century.
"We increasingly live in a world where the kind of rugged individualism that ran the country in the 19th and early 20th centuries is, in the opinion of some, getting us into trouble on issues like climate change or hunger where you need a more global perspective."
Darwin was also concerned with the concept of morality, explained Ekman, whose latest book Emotional Awareness was co-authored with the Dalai Lama.
In Darwin's day morality was sorely tested by the practice of slavery, which he abhorred.
In The Expression of the Emotions in Man and Animals Darwin argued that the universality of human expressions (think of smiles or facial displays of disgust) show the unity of humankind.
"That didn't prove evolution," Ekman said. "If we had all descended from Adam and Eve we'd all have the same expressions. But Darwin was directly challenging the idea that whites had descended from a more advanced [lineage]."
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roadman
climber
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Applying our knowledge of evolution
Evolutionary theory predicted that bacterial resistance would happen. Given time, heredity, and variation, any living organisms (including bacteria) will evolve when a selective pressure (like an antibiotic) is introduced. But evolutionary theory also gives doctors and patients some specific strategies for delaying even more widespread evolution of antibiotic resistance. These strategies include:
Don't use antibiotics to treat viral infections.
Antibiotics kill bacteria, not viruses. If you take antibiotics for a viral infection (like a cold or the flu), you will not kill the viruses, but you will introduce a selective pressure on bacteria in your body, inadvertently selecting for antibiotic-resistant bacteria. Basically, you want your bacteria to be "antibiotic virgins," so that if they someday get out of hand and cause an infection that your immune system can't handle, they can be killed by a readily available antibiotic.
Avoid mild doses of antibiotics over long time periods.
If an infection needs to be controlled with antibiotics, a short-term, high-dosage prescription is preferable. This is because you want to kill all of the illness-causing bacteria, leaving no bacterial survivors. Any bacteria that survive a mild dose are likely to be somewhat resistant. Basically, if you are going to introduce a selective pressure (antibiotics), make it so strong that you cause the extinction of the illness-causing bacteria in the host and not their evolution into resistant forms.
When treating a bacterial infection with antibiotics, take all your pills.
Just as mild doses can breed resistance, an incomplete regimen of antibiotics can let bacteria survive and adapt. If you are going to introduce a selective pressure (antibiotics), make it a really strong one and a long enough one to cause the extinction of the illness-causing bacteria and not their evolution.
Use a combination of drugs to treat a bacterial infection.
If one particular drug doesn't help with a bacterial infection, you may be dealing with a resistant strain. Giving a stronger dose of the same antibiotic just increases the strength of the same selective pressure — and may even cause the evolution of a "super-resistant" strain. Instead, you might want to try an entirely different antibiotic that the bacteria have never encountered before. This new and different selective pressure might do a better job of causing their extinction, not their evolution.
Reduce or eliminate the "preventive" use of antibiotics on livestock and crops.
Unnecessary use of antibiotics for agricultural and livestock purposes may lead to the evolution of resistant strains. Later, these strains will not be able to be controlled by antibiotics when it really is necessary. Preventive use of antibiotics on livestock and crops can also introduce antibiotics into the bodies of the humans who eat them.
Ultimately, recognizing bacteria as evolving entities and understanding their evolution should help us to control that evolution, allowing us to prolong the useful lifespan of antibiotics.
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roadman
climber
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So teaching intelligent design in the science classroom as if it were considered within the scientific community as a rival theory to evolution would be misleading. A primary concern of Christians is to tell the truth about God's creation. In fact Christians who are scientists see that as part of their worship. Of course we all know that scientific theories do not provide us with the "final story" – theories themselves develop as our understanding grows. But science education practiced with integrity will convey actual current science, not some private fad of the teacher.
There is another reason why Christians are against the teaching of intelligent design: because it promotes a non-Christian understanding of God as creator. In the Christian understanding, God is seen as the composer and conductor of the whole "music of life" in all its completeness. Intelligent design instead promotes a "designer-of-the-gaps" in which the "designer" is used to plug the current gaps in scientific knowledge, a "designer" that will inevitably fade away as the gaps close.
By all means discuss such religious and philosophical ideas in the RE or philosophy class. But let's keep the science classroom for science.
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WBraun
climber
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On the road to the man.
Science is the classroom of life ......
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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cintune- "it won't be long before religion and politics shut off other scientific pursuits". (Actually this is a quote from cintunes suggested link).
roadman- "Scientist who are Christians...".
My point is why would MD.'s, nurses, scientist, therapist in the health fields(I am an OTR/L)etc. that are Christians want any type of scientific pursuits to stop, particular science that is instrumental in bettering or health and lives?
It's false statements like the one in the Washington Post link above that creates false presumptions.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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roadman- "God is the one who put the "defect" there. right".
Wrong! God created a perfect world. Death, decay, hey what the heck, I will go ahead and say it, sin entered into the world. I know you don't believe in that concept(sin) but we live in a fallen world. If your realy interested, go back and reread Genesis(I realise you have read it and studied it many many times) but evidently you missed something.
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jstan
climber
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Stimulated by roadman:
Proof for/against god:
If one is going to structure their life assuming they can dead lift 500#, might one think seriously about proving this can be done first?
The question is, Where does the burden of proof lie?
If you are counting on god to be an active element, you had better know ahead of time.
Now those who do not feel a need for this element don't need to explore the question.
Not only do they not need to prove no god exists. They are not even interested in the question. Parsimony is a very useful principle. Don't make up constructs that are not necessary.
Pretty clearly one who "believes" can not be convinced to believe otherwise. Evidence is not employed for the first decision so evidence is unlikely to be valued at the second. Believing is a cultural adaptation. Like riding a bicycle. You could not forget it if you tried.
Now many have said there were instances in their life which proved to them god exists. We can take them at their word they had an experience.
But how did they know it was the god written about in the bible? Might it have been Apollo they heard speaking? If during the experience you heard a voice saying my boy was born in a manger 2000 earth years ago, that would be data. Well, an assertion at least.
In many ways the brain is a black box. We don't really know what is going on inside. We only know what comes out, sort of. Why it comes out? Is anyone's guess.
The dependence on "belief" that can grow is quite amazing. We hear people of this persuasion referring to science as a "belief." Everything has to be a "belief?"
Very curious, Eerie actually. Belief is like a drug? Once on it you can't get away from it?
Science is a tool, much like a screwdriver. Not more. Not less. Try getting a tire off your car without a tool.
Now I cannot say, "I "believe" I am unable to get a tire off my car without a tool."
The common usage of the word "belief" has become as follows.
A concept that is held to be true only for so long as there exists no objective data confirming its truth.
I have lots of data on my tires so I "think" or "expect" I cannot remove them with no tool.
This "belief" has yet to disappoint me. To date it has been absolutely true.
Absolute truth is very attractive. Really. I wake up in the middle of the night, I know I can't remove my tires without a tool.
Immensely comforting.
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WBraun
climber
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Absolute truth
Yes, that's why I always say; "There's no escape"
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Karl!
Surely you have read the verse in the Bible quoting God as saying that He created hell(The Lake of Fire) for only Satan and his angels. Long before He even created man.
There are only two places to spend eternity, Heaven and Hell.
God was very sad at the fact that many would choose to spend their eternity not with Him.
FWIW, there are different levels of hell evidently.
And I am not being hard on God. He is Holy and Righteous. I don't know what decisions Ronnie had made at an early age(as I had at age eight). No one would have guessed that I was a Christian during certain periods of my life. Or what the outcome would have been if the subject came up the weekend I stayed at his place. Nothing became of it with any of the other 4-5 friends of ours back then that I did talk with(but they are still alive). The one thing that I did eventually come to understand(and what God was showing me afterwards) is that there may be no tomorrow to do what can be done today.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dude, if you believe that in the beginning was only God, then everything comes from God and God is responsible for all.
God is not evident to all but mystics in this world so the idea that he's sending people to suffer for eternity for choosing against an entity they have no sense of is the worst blasphemy.
Show me in the bible where it clearly says people go to hell forever for not believing your particular interpretation of salvation.
Give up evil ideas about God, who is perfect love, and whom all would Love if they could experience. Ideas like, "God hides himself from the world, then gives us free choice to believe in him without evidence, but if we choose not to have blind faith, then he makes us suffer for eternity" That's not a choice. It's like saying, you don't have to marry me but if you don't I'm gonna skin you alive (which is light compared to eternity in hell.
Hitler was far less a tyrant than what you propose.
There is little evidence in the Bible for such a doctrine, which would be pretty damn important for God's book to spell out if true. Don't believe everything that's the modern cultural religious or Pauline interpretation of things. Missionaries cook up fear to make conversion simple, Do or fry forever. You know better within
peace
Karl
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Karl just got post #3,666. Be very afraid.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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jstan-"but how did they know it was the god written about in the bible"?
If some one you new knocked at your door, came in and sat down and spent some time there with you, you would have no doubt who it was, safe to say. All I can say is the Creator of this vast universe has the same ability to do just that, in Spirit. There is never any question of His presence. Its something that I do not have the words to explain. Another thing I can asure you of is that I have very little faith. I won't bore you with any examples of it.
It is a personal relationship, believe me.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"Karl just got post #3,666. Be very afraid."
God's been playing a Job thing with me lately. So far I can take it!
Peace
Karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Karl!
Who do you believe Jesus is? He spoke more of hell than He spoke of Heaven.
Read about Lazarus and the rich man(Luke 16:20-25! Jesus told this story.
I go specifically by what Jesus teaches in the New Testament, and there are many more examples.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Bro, in that story note a couple things.
Never says that the rich man goes to Hell forever.
also Jesus never recommends in that passage that belief in him is required but suggests good works and following the law of Moses and the Prophets.
So in such you are believing what you want to believe, because I'm sure you aren't following the law of moses
It's good to study the whole context and history of the Bible to get a sense of wassup with it. People are always praying in Jesus name but his disciples and followers never, ever, called him "Jesus" and he didn't call himself "Jesus". It's a Greek name. That would be like calling me "Charles" and referencing me like that for 2000 years. We make these assumptions but they are concocted by stringing together unclear verses that we don't really believe.
Earlier in Luke, divorce and remarriage are explicitly prohibited. Where do you stand on that?
Peace
Karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Karl-"Dude, if you believe in the beginning was only God..."
I like that paraphrase Karl! And I do believe it. And that is why I take everything Jesus says in the four Gospels very seriously, including what He says about hell and eternity.
It's from John 1 and goes like this "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him...'John 1-3 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth". John 1-14.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Again, since this is the most important question of peoples existence and, according to you, Jesus came to save people, show me where Jesus spells out the Christian doctrine that everybody who doesn't accept Jesus as personal saviour suffers for eternity, cause the passage you cited above DIRECTLY contradicts it and recommends works and following the law. You'd think that if God were sending people to suffer for trillions of years, and sent Jesus to save them from that, he's be talking about it plainly and a lot.
and it doesn't say people go to hell forever. Even if hell exists forever, it never says people go there forever.
PEace
Karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Karl!
Believe me, over the past forty years I have read through the Old Testament many times, and prefer studying the Old Testament more than the new. I know I have read the New Testament through at least ten times. It would be difficult to understand the New Testament fully without thorough knowledge of the Old Testament. It is one continuous story from Genesis to Revelation. But just as important is the studying of both. I have done everything from word studies, to verse studies, to chapter and book studies. There is also memorisation and meditation on different verses that is essential. Daily reading of the scripture is as, or more important than the food we eat, to stay healthy spiritually. He is the Living Word. It is how He speaks to us(primarily how).
But the New Testament is a new dispensation, the dispensation of grace. Not of of the law or works that God clearly showed man that they could not succeed(they continuously failed in the Old Testament). "It is by grace that you are saved, not of works". Jesus did away with the old and brought in the new, His sacrifice on the cross completed that. We are expected to do good works and keep the commandments after we are saved because we are to imitate Him.
Jesus clearly states many times and in many ways that "I am the only way to the Father"(to Heaven). He tells Nicodemus "you must be born again".
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Karl!
"To live once than the Judgement". It is eternal "forever and ever"!
"Most assuredly I say to you, he who believes in Me shall have eternal life" John 6:47.
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood, has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day". Jesus was talking figuratively(He is the bread of life) Eats of this bread is synonym for faith. We get nourishment from bread or food to sustain us each day(obviously, or we would eventually starve to death). He is the Bread of eternal life.
These are just a couple verses from one chapter. There are hundreds of them.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Karl-"The passage you sited above DIRECTLY contradicts it recommends works and following the law".
What passage Karl??? I said to read the story of Nicodemus and John 1:1-3,14. They say nothing of the such!!
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MH2
climber
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roadman,
In respect to your quite sensible reccomendations on the use of antibiotics; we are royally screwed. Even the one little nursing home I work at has great prospects for creating drug-resistant bacteria all by itself, and if we try to add up how many nursing homes there are, etc., yikes! And there are hospitals, and the public going to their family doc.
Earlier I was tempted to transform the quote attributed to J.B.S. Haldane, that we can infer from the evidence of Creation that the Creator was fond of beetles, into Him being fond of bacteria. The number of beetle species is estimated in the hundreds of thousands. If you try to find how many different kinds of bacteria there are on the planet, the current answer appears to be: too many to count.
A moderately good discussion of the problem:
http://www.pnas.org/content/99/16/10234.full
Another source said that estimates of the different kinds of bacteria range from 100 million to 10 billion, but "could be off by several orders of magnitude."
Not too many years ago bacteria were thought to be significant to humans mainly as potential pathogens. Not any longer. It seems that what they are up to isn't clear, yet, but it would be good if we could find out more, and try to be sure we can live in harmony with the planet's dominant life form.
Other Haldane quotes:
"My own suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose."
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms."
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Karl!
In the story of Lazarus and the rich man, Jesus was telling a story about two individuals that lived in Old Testament times! Jesus had not yet died for Humanity or paid the price of there sins.
There are abundant verses in the New Testament were Jesus confirms that He is the only way. The old testament people were judged by keeping the law and good works and belief in Jehovah Jireh, yes. There was nothing wrong with being rich, but in the story evidently the rich mans riches were the center of his life etc.
Jesus name is pronounced Yeshua in Aramaic. Jesus in Greek. He knows who we are referring to.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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MH2!
I just wanted to mention(noticed you worked in a nursing home)that my father was in a nursing home for 18 months before he died(1991). I was there ever other day for about two hours to help with care, as were my mother and brother on opposite days. I went back to college(already had 3+ years)graduated in '95 and majored in occupational therapy OTR/L. And have worked in a number of nursing homes and hospitals since. Strep(especially the penn./antibiotic resistant variety) is hideous! I haven't fooled yours and roadman's discussion tonight. I was just saying.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Karl!
He has many names in the Bible; Prince of Peace, Lion of Judah, Yeshuah(Joshuah)Emanuel etc, etc.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Karl!
"And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him" Luke 12:4-5. That is Jesus/Yeshua speaking of Himself.
"who confesses Me before men, him the Son Of Man also will confess before the angels of God. But he who denies me before men will be denied before the angels of God". Luke 12:8-9.
"He rebuked their disbelief and hardness of heart because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. And He said to them 'Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptised will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned" Mark 16:14-17.
"How can you escape the condemnation of hell".Mathew 23:33.
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he does not believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God". John 3:18.
I am looking at my Strong's Concordance and there are many more, close to fifty in the 4 Gospels alone. But it is after 3am...goodnight.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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MH2-"What would you call Helen Keller before Anne Sullivan taught her sign language"?
Helen Keller, definitely a remarkable person, also a Christian. When she was told the Gospel story and about Christ she responded "I know Him, I just didn't know His name". An incredible testimony of God revealing Himself to her. Helen Keller new who she was, and that she was loved by her Creator.
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roadman
climber
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roadman,
In respect to your quite sensible reccomendations on the use of antibiotics; we are royally screwed. Even the one little nursing home I work at has great prospects for creating drug-resistant bacteria all by itself, and if we try to add up how many nursing homes there are, etc., yikes! And there are hospitals, and the public going to their family doc.
Earlier I was tempted to transform the quote attributed to J.B.S. Haldane, that we can infer from the evidence of Creation that the Creator was fond of beetles, into Him being fond of bacteria. The number of beetle species is estimated in the hundreds of thousands. If you try to find how many different kinds of bacteria there are on the planet, the current answer appears to be: too many to count.
A moderately good discussion of the problem:
http://www.pnas.org/content/99/16/10234.full
Another source said that estimates of the different kinds of bacteria range from 100 million to 10 billion, but "could be off by several orders of magnitude."
Not too many years ago bacteria were thought to be significant to humans mainly as potential pathogens. Not any longer. It seems that what they are up to isn't clear, yet, but it would be good if we could find out more, and try to be sure we can live in harmony with the planet's dominant life form.
We are not screwed. Because we have evolutionary biologists to save us. Funny you look at PNAS, have you published there?
Nursing home work must be hard!!!! CNA, LPN, RN? I can see why you have to believe so strongly in GOD...
While you're surfing PNAS check out some of the cool active research is going on in evolution. Not just human related. THe genetic tools are making it really cool right now. A lot of those papers are a bit to dry for mud throwing types;-)
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roadman
climber
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Only the weak need a god to believe in. Grow up. pick a better fairy tail
Suggestions:
The princes bride
robinhood
waterworld
snow white
What a shame that intelligent people need the crutch that is GOD
worse yet...they feel the need to poison the well of fact based knowledge for others.
fact. yes thats a 4 letter word to you religious folks. except for the 1.2 billion catholics!!!
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roadman
climber
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MH2-"What would you call Helen Keller before Anne Sullivan taught her sign language"?
Helen Keller, definitely a remarkable person, also a Christian. When she was told the Gospel story and about Christ she responded "I know Him, I just didn't know His name". An incredible testimony of God revealing Himself to her. Helen Keller new who she was, and that she was loved by her Creator.
fairy tail! wake up...
what made you this way?
why do you "believe" in this juju mumbojumbo sunday school banter?
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roadman
climber
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that voice in your head is not god!!!! News flash. it's just you. him telling you to fight for creationist BS is just you..cause he/she is not down with confusion.
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints 1 Corinthians 14:33
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roadman
climber
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reationism stands in opposition to this process of enlightenment, seeking instead to return us to the days when the limits of the inquiring mind were rigidly circumscribed by superstition and dogma. For this reason alone, it deserves to be opposed by all right-thinking people of conscience and principle. The true universe is too vast to fit into any one holy book or religious tradition, and it deserves to be fully investigated so that our descendants may marvel at discoveries even greater than the ones that amazed us. For this reason alone, creationism should and must be opposed wherever it may appear.
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roadman
climber
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The creationists/IDers are not concerned in the slightest about scientific questions, or about correctly interpreting data, or about forming better explanations and understanding of the natural world.
Instead, creationism/ID is a wholly-owned subsidiary of the fundamentalist Religious Right -- it is a religious and political movement, not a scientific one, and its goals are entirely religious and political, not scientific. The ID/creationists are a part of a larger political movement with radical theocratic aims, and their anti-evolution and anti-science efforts are, as they themselves declare, simply the "wedge issue" which they have chosen in order to gain entry for their wider anti-democratic political goals.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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roadman!
I don't believe in a religion!
Religion is a man made effort to work his way up to God. Doesn't work. It is a relationship that Christ offers. It is not a crutch that He offers(drugs and boose etc. are crutches). And religion can also be a crutch, or a weekly feel good about yourself shot in the arm for some you could say.
When I was 8 yrs. old and called out "Jesus please help me" from being murdered by an alleged serial killer of young boys(his son and two daughters say he has murdered at least thirty,and they witnessed many of them)he had already told me how he was going to torture me, how my body was going to look when it was found, and "they will think you were run over by a train when they find you". I new little or nothing of "religion".
It was a pure request for help. He filled me with Himself, a peace not of this world, the Prince of Peace. I walked away from that man and his wife and two kids(the boy and one of his sisters) by a supernatural power. THAT was the beginning of a spiritual relationship with Jesus Christ, the Creator of this world. Most Christians begin it when they realise they are in need of a Savior and ask Him into thier heart(life).
That has been over 50 years and it is based on faith(obviously I was hoping/believing He could help me)but He has revealed Himself to me close to a dozen times since then(ten or more years have gone by between some of those very personal revelations). But He does so in many ways with all believers sometimes in answered prayer. Read some of Cragmans or the other testimonies on the "Miracle"(forget the title) thread that was recently posted. I do admit my relationship is unusual, but over the years I have heard many experiences similar to mine, from other believers.
But no matter what we testify about, you and other nonbelievers will always come up with an explanation etc. That's why only you can respond when He convicts your heart(maybe He will bring you to your knees) and break that self-centered pride that you are so full of. Or maybe it is bitterness and hate, or just simple unbelief or doubt. I don't know, perhaps your heart is already so hardened that He is finished with you, I hope not.
Religion is guilty of everything you have accused it of, I agree. It is just that you have confused a Person who desires to know you, with a man-made agenda of men, called religion(many "religions" fly the flag of Christianity).
Just look at Him this way for one second. If He is fully God, and He left Heaven to come here and be ridiculed and crucified by His own people(some who knew He was God)and then carry the weight of the worlds sins upon Him and suffer the total wrath of God the Father for you, can He be all that bad? That is a hypothetical question for you of course being an Atheist. Just some food for thought.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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roadman-"why do you "believe" in this juju mumbojumbo sunday school banter"?
Helen Keller had no knowledge of anything other than her existence let alone any mumbo jumbo juju Sunday school banter!! I suggest you read some of her autobiography or biography.
And as I briefly explained, neither did I. I never attended Sunday school in my life up to that point and for some time after. I did on one or two occasions color in pictures of simple gospel stories in a secular school program that I attended once or perhaps twice when I was 7yrs. old(for 45 min.)at a Catholic church. We were given that option in the 1950's for once a week during the last hour of class. I chose to stay in class most of the time.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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roadman!
By the way I had little knowledge of who Jesus was before that day I had gone to Catholic church a couple of times when we were living in Canada, but it was all in Latin.
I only recall going one time while I was seven(I turned eight at the end of May, and the encounter with the serial killer happened that summer) the nun gave me a picture of a man with a beard, dressed in a robe with children sitting on His lap. I figured it was Santa(we still have the picture of my sister and me on Santa's lap when I was 5, although by six I new he was a hoax) and proceeded to color in His robe red and His beard white. The nun eventually asked me "Do you know who that man is John" and I said yes Santa, fortunately she briefly told me that it was Jesus and how He loved children. Period. Evidently I gave it some consideration, although I do not remember any except what I did when I was eight.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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777 bro
None of those quotes say any person is thrown in Hell forever.
Since you have a relationship, go within yourself and ask Yeshua if he tosses people in hell forever.
Funny he would forgive sinners when he was on earth where he was obvious and performing miracles and then damn people to hell forever because they failed to believe the testimony of his alleged followers during the present day, particularly considering their behavior often bears little resemblance to the tolerance and love he preached on earth
Peace
Karl
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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If one does not believe that the non-believers will go to hell forever then there is no real reason to believe. Without being forced into believing, many would not bother because of all of the other crap that goes along with it. For instance, if the church wasn't using extortion on politicians to vote against womens rights by withholding communion, the politicians might not do what the church wants. if there is no leverage of eternal damnation then how would the church get anyone to follow it besides the true believers.
It is in the best interest of the church to maintain the fear of hell in people even if it is not clear in their most important documentation of their religion.
This all makes perfect sense but also shows that the church is run by man and not God and that the bible was written by man and not God and is therefore subject to all of human frailty, even if there is a God.
Dave
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2009 - 01:53pm PT
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rectorsquid, VERY well said
I raise my glass to you!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Karl!
All those quotes Jesus made while He was on earth. And there are many more similar. He clearly states the same(and that hell is eternal in the Old Testament and in Revelation as told by the Apostle John("the one He loved"). He is the God of the Old Testament!
When I find the time and the verses I will relate them to you. I read the Bible everyday. Take fifteen minutes or whatever amount of time you choose and take a look what Jesus has to say for yourself. He says it's necessary for spiritual growth!
Peace Bro!
Trip~
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2009 - 02:11pm PT
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so, at exactly what moment in human physical evolution did god reach down
and insert a "soul" in to the lucky homo sapiens alive at that time?
Was it about 2000 or so years ago when Adam and Eve were in the Garden?
It is just "too bad" for any humans who lived immediately before the
instant the soul was created in humans?
THEY were doomed to no "life after death" because they had no soul?
We KNOW modern humans were around prior to Adam and Eve, so WHAT DOES
happen to them, they just die and return to dust with no soul and
chance of a shot at heaven? Like a "blind Salamander"?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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You haven't proved me wrong a bit 777, read the book yourself.
Even if there is always a hell, it doesn't mean any person goes there forever
San Quentin is always there, nobody goes forever
As you well know, Jesus interpreted old testament teachings frequently and liberally and if he didn't, you'd be in big trouble for not following the 365 laws of Judaism. He did tell people to follow the law, which Christians don't.
It was Paul who excused Christians from following the law. He argued with the disciples who actually met Jesus in the flesh over whether Christians needed to be circumcised and whether they needed to follow the law. Jesus SPECIFICALLY told people he came for the sake of the Jews alone (but relented a bit when a non-jewish woman begged to eat the spiritual scraps that fell off the table)
People have taken this book, abused it, believed what they want to believe and inflicted it on the world. I say this not to cut down Jesus, who is a spiritual hero, but to defend him.
Peace
karl
edit: Reference: Syrophonecian woman Mark 7:25....
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roadman
climber
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By the way I had little knowledge of who Jesus was before that day I had gone to Catholic church a couple of times when we were living in Canada, but it was all in Latin.
I only recall going one time while I was seven(I turned eight at the end of May, and the encounter with the serial killer happened that summer) the nun gave me a picture of a man with a beard, dressed in a robe with children sitting on His lap. I figured it was Santa(we still have the picture of my sister and me on Santa's lap when I was 5, although by six I new he was a hoax) and proceeded to color in His robe red and His beard white. The nun eventually asked me "Do you know who that man is John" and I said yes Santa, fortunately she briefly told me that it was Jesus and how He loved children. Period. Evidently I gave it some consideration, although I do not remember any except what I did when I was eight.
Dude, you lived in CANADA and moved!!!! I'm working towards moving/working in canada...
but i digress. OK ummm you not into religun (ha ha ah) then why all the bible talk. Don't that kinda get in the way of you talking directly to the "man". especially if youz thinks he just came to you (in your head) and spoke the truth?
Helen may have been an amazing person. But, she could still have a few screws loose, No?
My main passion be it as it may is and always will be keeping god out of the science classroom because it in not the place for it. no more than motor power high speed wenching up the side of el cap belongs in yosemite next to climbers climbing that perfect rock!
Your truth can be whateva, but keep it away from the all to important facts that make up science (k).
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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rectorsquid-"maintain the fear of hell"!
I haven't heard a pastor give a sermon on hell or eternity in well over 15 years. And these are churches that admit that it is eternal. And I have attended many 'born again/evangelical Christian churches in San Diego, L.A. Las Vegas and Orange Co.(the four places I have lived and worked the last 15+ tears, and the S.F. Bay Area were I finished college (92-95 SJSU). And I watch Christian services on TV several times a week. I truly do not recall the topic being brought up once. It makes people uncomfortable and pastors do not like to make people uncomfortable these days. I have heard hundreds of sermons and attend Wednesday bible studies and it is just not in vogue. Even when I have brought it up with believing friends they become very negative or change the subject although they know it is true.
I find that misfortune, they need more individuals with John the Baptist or Elijah the Prophet's traits. Telling the people the truth. Take a look at what those two individuals had to say about Eternity! Jesus referred to John the Baptist as the greatest/most rigteous man have ever been born up to his time. And spoke likewise of Elijah.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2009 - 02:22pm PT
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Elijah, my ass.
I want my question answered:
so, at exactly what moment in human physical evolution did god reach down
and insert a "soul" in to the lucky homo sapiens alive at that time?
We KNOW modern humans were around prior to Adam and Eve, so WHAT DOES
happen to them, they just die and return to dust with no soul and
chance of a shot at heaven? Like a "blind Salamander"?
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jstan
climber
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777:
A small question. You have a special relationship with god and you are urging us to do the same. What happens if god wants to have a special relationship only with you? I have heard few people claiming as you do. So the statistics strongly suggest this question needs an answer.
In that case are you not urging upon us a very grievous disappointment?
Since you do not follow a religion, I would count it a grace if you would not answer my question with a reading from the bible. That's a book based on religion and even politics for that matter. If you have a relationship with god, it is you who has the answer. Not the bible.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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roadman!
I am an occupational therapist OTR/L and have mega amounts of science over the last 20+ years, what your science background is I don't have a clue. I have a BS degree that a Bachelor of Science degree. Over 100 units in Science such as anatomy, physiology, neuroanatomy, neurophysiology, kinesiology,physical disability,(multiple classes in these six areas)and numerous psychology, abnormal psychology, and human development classes, and of course physics chemistry biology, etc, etc. And not once was evolution discussed let alone studied. And if you took the time to read what I said about Christian scientist, MD's and health care providers, of which I am one you would understand already our appreciation of science.
I am just fortunate that they hadn't taken God out of the schools(they did teach evolution in science classes then)they gave the option for us to learn about God up until 1962(the year I entered Jr. high school). I agree with you about science. God should be taught in Church and at home and I believe it should be allowed as an option as it was back then in school(it was rarely brought up anyway). As it is know, a student can give a speech on any one or religion including Satanism or witchcraft/the occult, but Jesus is taboo.
As far as Canada is concerned we went back every summer(almost) and my parents moved back in the mid seventies and stayed until the mid 80's(bought a farm house in Cape Breton. All my family/relatives are from Cape Breton, Nova Scotia. I wish we never left.
All my uncles were lobster fisherman.I would have inherited a commercial license(the only way you can get one)pasted up many offers. My brother and I were born in Seattle Wa. when my parents came down for 5-6 yrs. to build a couple houses. My father was a carpenter. We still consider our selves Canucks, it is in our blood. Totally different mindset north of the border.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Skipt!
Yes, the apostle John wrote the Gospel of John and The Revelation of Jesus Christ(Revelations). John was the only Apostle not to be martyred. The other 11 + Paul were all martyred.
John also wrote three epistles(1 John, 2 John and 3 John. He was the brother of James and was one of the three closest to Jesus along with James and Peter. All three were at the Transfiguration of Christ.
Thanx, Trip~
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Isaiah 56:6-8 clearly states God's intention to save all people, not just the Jews. The Temple built by Solomon had a Court of the Gentiles, an area where Gentile, non-Jewish believers in Jehovah (or Yahweh, whatever you prefer) could worship. God stated, "My house shall be a house of prayer FOR ALL THE NATIONS." Not just the Jews. He told Abraham, "Through you ALL NATIONS shall be blessed." Jesus made it plain that He came first for the Jews, as that nation had been selected by God for Him to use as the nation though whom He would produce His son. God made it plain that He did so not because the Jews were "special" but because God loved Abraham, Jacob, David, etc., and made His promise and covenant with them.
The only Law Jesus instructed His disciples to follow was to "Love the Lord your God with all of your heart and with all of your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind. And love your neighbor as yourself." (Luke 10:27). He reserved His harshest words for the teachers of the Law: "And you experts in the Law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry," (i.e., those 300-some-odd laws the religious leaders had somehow extrapolated from the Ten Commandments.) Luke 11:46. And again, "Woe to you, experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge." (the key being the love of God in your heart, not the outward trappings of "religiosity.") Luke 11:52. And again: "Beware of the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and love to be greeted in the marketplaces and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Such men will be punished most severely." Luke 20: 46-47.
Rather than urging people to follow the old order of the Law, Jesus proclaimed that He had come to FREE people from the oppression of the Law, that their only religion was to be written on their hearts. The religious leaders of the day killed Him for this very reason...not because He was telling people to follow the Law, but because He condemned it as a milestone around the neck that would drag you under.
The church I attend specifically condemns "religiosity" in all its forms. The message is simple...believe on Jesus, and be saved.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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jstan!
Every Christian I know considers the Jesus of the Gospels as offering to have a personal relationship with Him. The Bible is as Christ clearly claims the Word of God. Up thread I quoted John 1:1-3,14 Jesus clearly stated(as documented by the apostle John that "In the beginning was the Word.....And the word became flesh and dwelt among us" Jesus is the Word. And the Bible is Gods love letter to mankind. Jesus is the gift "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whomever believes in Him shall not perish, but will have eternal life" John 3:16.
Every church I have attended(because He does ask us to fellowship and worship with other believers have never asked me or anyone to join a religion. Such as Catholic, Jehovah W, etc. They did hope you would eventually come to the knowledge of the need to except Christ. And all pastors n new there would always be people in the church that were not saved and stated such regularly. It can not be forced on any one.
When I came to know Him I also came to know (over time, because I was initially young and had only the Catholic church and their disbelief's) that the Bible is the Word of God.
Some churches ask you to join there specific assembly(for fellow support and commitment etc.)Your joining together to support in ways such as helping with the elderly, parking, seating, the sick, feeding the homeless, visiting widows and orhans etc. They simply get your phone number and address and hope you will pitch in when needed. I never have(I have helped here and there). One reason being that I have moved around allot.
Christianity is about a relationship. You have to seek that personal relationship individually. You can not simply join a "religion" and do some required things such as get baptised by a priest or anyone else etc and call yourself a Christian.
I have gone over this many times, the Jesus I know states in the gospels that He personally made sure that He would reveal Himself to mankind through the Bible. Surely you can understand if He truly is God that He can insure the deliverance of that letter to mankind unadulterated, in total to this very day. "My word will not slip away..."
John, I can understand your doubts in regards to man, but we are talking about an omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient God, "everything is possible"(nothing is impossible with God). He can and did use fallible man to pen the infallible Word of God.
I have had epiphany's(so have others)I have had visions 5-6(so have others)etc. etc. over the last 50 yrs.And I had a somewhat unique introduction to the person of Christ. But I am no different than Jobee or Skipt or Cragman or Tobias or bluering or Klimmer or others I can't think of right now, or Billy Graham for that matter....there may be a few minor disagreements here and there. But we have all at one time or another came to the acknowledgement of our need for forgiveness and a Savior, and asked Christ into our hearts.
He revealed Himself to us after that initial act of faith(as much through His word as with supernatural events). It is through His Grace that this occurs. If you call that(Jesus) a religion, than what can I say.
I personally think politics and calling one sin worse than another so to speak and other things under the banner of Chritianity, has done allot of damage to the body of Christ. But it is just one of the signs of the times.
Hope this helps some. I am kind of rambling at this point and forget the specific question. Oh well, ask again if this didn't do it.
The Jesus I know is the Jesus of the Bible.
Piece, Trip~
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2009 - 04:32pm PT
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so, at exactly what moment in human physical evolution did god reach down
and insert a "soul" in to the lucky homo sapiens alive at that time?
Was it about 2000 or so years ago when Adam and Eve were in the Garden?
It is just "too bad" for any humans who lived immediately before the
instant the soul was created in humans?
THEY were doomed to no "life after death" because they had no soul?
We KNOW modern humans were around prior to Adam and Eve, so WHAT DOES
happen to them, they just die and return to dust with no soul and
chance of a shot at heaven? Like a "blind Salamander"?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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The Final Judgment
Matthew 25:31-46, “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ “Then he will say to those on his left, *‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.* For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ * And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”*
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2009 - 05:11pm PT
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Not only "people" will burn in eternal hell, but also every non Catholic
CHILD who was not baptized prior to 1962 is and will burn in hell.
So said the Catholic Church.
WHEN did the guy in the sky reach down and inject a "soul" in to modern humans?
Since Adam and Eve were the first humans "created" a couple thousand years
ago, does every modern human for 198,000 years prior to that simply
turn to dust with no chance at heaven?
What does Christianity say about those humans unlucky enough to be born
prior to Adam and Eve?
Tripp, Gobee ?
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Here is how I interpret the Christian God:
* You must believe to go to heaven.
* If you are born with a birth defect that makes it impossible for you to comprehend any religious teachings then you are obviously treated differently than the "smart" people who can understand the teachings. You therefore still go to heaven. After all, you are not capable of the same relationship with God as the "smart" people are.
* If you are born with an analytical mind and are prone to thoughts of science and atheism, you are not treated differently and go to hell. Bummer for you.
Therefore, it appears that God would throw a dog out of the window and then punish it because it can't fly. There is no other way to see it. God must have made belief difficult knowing that many people will reject Him but did it anyhow. What kind of childish crap is that? then to make sure that some people are mentally aligned with the God stuff is even worse. it stacks the desk against some of us while favoring those that are prone to accept mythology and fantasy as truth (accepting that it could actually be true in this context).
There's also the issue of talking to some people in their heads, as the voice of Jesus or whatever, and letting them think they are sane while also letting others also hear voices in their heads that tell them to do horrible things because they are simply crazy. There is no way for anyone to know if they are hearing Jesus or just going insane. unless you actually don't believe that insanity exists. Again, it's a bunch of crap or it's a cruel and mean God that makes belief impossible for so many (everyone who is not Christian according to Christians).
At this point in my life, I accept that there is no life after death and that once my brain stops sending signals around, there will be no "me" and no universe as far as I'm concerned. It really makes life easier, not harder. I can be kind for the sake of being kind, not to avoid punishment.
I am the dog. I have been thrown out out of the window of heaven and have not been able to fly because God did not give me wings. I hope I am treated as well as the retarded kids when I am judged.
Dave
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2009 - 05:29pm PT
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rectorsquid for POTUS!
endorsed by the Norton family
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Base104-"Don't pray in our schools, and I won't pray in your church.
First of all, I am not advocating anything. For one reason, I personally believe nothing is going to turn America back to where it was in the 50's 60's moraly speaking. And if you can't see the moral decline since 1962Drugs and gangs and murder and failing at one war after another, divorce and greed, teen suicide, pornography everywhere etc.(there are problems that no kind of science is going to fix Bro). It's far to gone, and I know many would argue to the contrary, Christian and Atheist.
Maybe I missed something but I(nor any of my siblings) ever saw prayer in school per-say. We were given the option to leave for the last hour of class one day a week to our respective places of worship or stay in classes for secular activities(this was on the East Coast, not in Cali.
I do recall the state of California having a contest titled "What Does Democracy Mean to Me". And God was a big part of my paper along with equality(my forth and sixth grade teachers were black men as were many of my friends, along with Hispanic and Caucasian) and it was the height of the Civil Rights Movement 1961. And according to my teacher and the newspaper I won...for what that is worth. I wouldn't have been able to include God today!! Guess I would have too find someway to include Chrlie Darwin into the scope of things(it is the 200th year of his Thesis).
Don't recall the subject of God being brought up much. I guess it was just the fact that He was not censored and now is that got some peoples goat.
I will say this God says He created the world in six days, (I am sure He could have done it in six seconds)I do believe he was trying to instill in us a day of rest, for the animals that were so integral in work for so long, as much as for us.
He also states that time as we know it was created with man, everything started to decay at that time. He also said that a day to Him is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like a day. It is hard for us to grasp, but in eternity there will only be the eternal present.
Obviously He could of created stars with their light already reaching earth.
I have a question for you Base104. How did matter evolve from nothing? If there wasn't anything to begin with. I suppose that is similar to the question that my father use to ask me..."Who made God"? God claims He has always been, according to Genesis and John 1.
What about matter, what does "science" say about it, where did it come from.
"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made even His eternal power and the Godhead, so they are without excuse..." Romans 1:20. That is what I have seen, since the days of my first biology classes,peering through a microscope, and astronomy classes, peering through a telescope. I felt no need then or now to tell anyone, like He says, it is clearly seen, evident.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Forget it Base, All posts over two paragraphs are not read. Waste time on Supertopo at your own risk... ;-) ......... ;-(
777 wrote
"Skipt!
Yes, the apostle John wrote the Gospel of John and The Revelation of Jesus Christ(Revelations)"
No scholar of the bible who uses rules of scholarship believes the apostle John wrote revelations. It is universally believed to be written in AD90 on a greek Island.
Peace
Karl
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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fascinating bio details, trip, thanks -not being ironic.
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Norton, the Bible does not say anything about anyone prior to Adam and Eve, although it does address humans who have never heard the words of Jesus. So theroretically, anyone prior to what you term "the insertion of the human soul" would, I think be handled the same way.
The Bible says that anyone who has not heard the word of Christ (this would include, of course, those born in remote parts of the world), they shall be viewed by God in accordance with what knowledge was available to them at the time. He looks at the heart, not at the "religion." Jesus said there would be MANY who will stand before Him and protest that they had been "Christians." He said that His response will be, "Depart from me, you evildoers, for I never knew you."
God is merciful and just. For any that were not able by circumstances to know directly of Him, He will be just.
As an aside, and similar to Tripp's story, I know of someone who was raised by atheists. His parents did not hate the church, just never talked about it and it was a non-issue and non-subject in the home. Around the age of 8 or so, my friend overheard a conversation about Jesus, and he said he just knew in his heart that it was true. He said he prayed to receive Jesus into his life, and even though he had never heard of God, and had no Bible, he prayed and felt God's presence every day. It wasn't until he was a teenager that he got a Bible and recognized that this was the God he had come to know and love through his daily experiences.
God knows who has Him in their heart and who is just going through the motions.
I don't know if this really answered your question.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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I don't believe the pivotal issue(s) are Darwin vs. biblical literalism, Adam and Eve in Eden vs. cave dwellers, evolution vs. immaculate quickening....... or science vs religion.
Religion and science are different approaches to truth. It's human misapprehension to perceive the two as contending entities.
The critical question about creation is whether its essence is founded in purpose and design or........... random accident.
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Hi Karl,
We do know that the Apostle John died on the Greek Island of Patmos where he had been exiled, as at the time, being a follower of Jesus was a crime.
The crucifixion happened in AD33. So even if John had been 25 or so when Jesus died (I have no idea how old he was, I am throwing that out hypothetically) he would have been 82 in AD90.
So, possible.
Thanks! I really appreciate your posts/thoughts.
Jennie, I think that was an awesome post. I don't think science and faith have to exclude each other. It was always one of my best subjects, all the way through grad school (OK, except maybe chemistry!)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2009 - 06:14pm PT
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Bronwyn, good attempt at answering my question!
You did the best you could do.
As I suspected, the HUMANS who wrote the bible had NO conception of
any "earlier" humans like we are talking about, therefore they could
not write anything about them.
At a counterpoint to your little story:
I was born and raised in a devout Catholic family.
By the age of five, I was personally convinced that my parents and the
Catholic school I was attending were flat WRONG, and that the god story
was no different than Santa or the Tooth Fairy stories.
Based upon simple, childlike logic and reason, I knew at that age that
I was an "atheist" for life, although I had never heard of that word./
My Atheism has been "a" major guiding core all of my life since then.
It has brought me much comfort and taught me reason and logic ROCK.
I treasure it as deeply as those who bought the guy in the sky story.
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WBraun
climber
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creation is whether its essence is founded in purpose and design or........... random accident.
It is an absolute fact that creation has purpose and design by intelligence.
Not because some books says so, not because some scientist says so.
Lay all the parts on the table and it takes intelligence to put them together.
A retard and/or idiot can't do it. It doesn't happen by any random accident.
If one "believes" that creation is just random, accident, or no intelligence is none other than a retard, idiot and just plain stupid.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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rectorsquid- "If you are born with an analytical mind...".
Well let's talk about that point for just a second.
In 1983, at San Diego State University, a statistics professor gave us an Analytical Reasoning IQ test one day. There are two standard IQ tests one which most of us are familiar, test our general knowledge of various subjects etc. the second one I was not aware of until that afternoon. It is a multicultural/international invlves the analytical reasoning aspect of our frontal lobes.
As I recall, we were allowed 50-60 min. And it involved somewhere between 55-60 questions, with each question increasing in difficulty. Each of the questions involved four squares with four squares inside of each square=16 squares per question.
Remembering the sequence or perhaps I should say each move from one square to the next was integral to the whole. In other words, each and all the moves had to be remembered when making the final 16th move to solve the puzzle. It required total concentration.
I recall on about the 32 problem, a girl sneezing and it broke my concentration. Although I new were I was at the time of the sneeze, it required 100% concentration to remember the prior moves to do the remaining moves. I said the heck with it and moved on to the 33 puzzle. Well I finished the last one with at least 5 mins left and I new I had gotten all of them right. And it was so much more difficult that I new I could do the 32 one with out much difficulty so I didn't bother(it wasn't graded). I don't think ey were allowed to grade IQ test and she stated that the were confidential etc.
Well at the end of the following class she called me back and told me I had only missed one and that I was in the top 1% in the nation yadayadayada....I always wondered were I would have been categorized if I had went back and done that 32nd problem.
It also frustrated me because it was years before I figured out what I wanted to do with my life. Personally I don't think it is that significant in the grand scheme of things. Though I have always been very analytical.
Trip~
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Norton, to be honest, I think the Catholic Church is going to have a LOT to answer for...and not just the obvious trangressions.
I know so many people who were raised Catholic who feel the same way you do. Having been to some Catholic services, I can't say I blame you. All I can say is, God is NOT the Catholic Church!!!
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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The critical question about creation is whether its essence is founded in pupose and design or........... random accident.
There is a third possibility you didn't include, which I think is probably the truth.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Werner-"It is an absolute fact that creation has purpose and design by intelligence".
Wisely stated WB!
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Norton: as PS, there is a rather obscure Biblical reference to a group of people in the Old Testament (somewhere around the reference that most take to mean refers to the dinosaurs)that scholarly debate has raged about for a long time. Of course right now I can't find it!!! It must be somewhere in Genesis, I will have to look for it and get back to you.
Please don't judge the rest of us by your bad experience.
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roadman
climber
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Werner-"It is an absolute fact that creation has purpose and design by intelligence".
Wisely stated WB!
that's the most dipshit thing I've heard all day... but the day is young. So maybe you guys can improve on it!
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WBraun
climber
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It is an absolute fact that creation has purpose and design by intelligence".
It stands, roadman, there's absolutely nothing you can do to change that.
You can write, argue, juggle words around, say anything you want and still you can't defeat that fact.
If you try, you will fail, and I guarantee it.
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roadman
climber
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I guarantee it.
good job! improved. new #1 for today
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Karl-"no post over three paragraphs is read".
To begin with I have been up since you went to bed last night.
And two when 5 people are asking you 5 questions each every ten minutes just try and keep up Karl!!
And I type about 15 w0rds or less a minute!!!
And I have read every post up to yours to which I am now responding!
EDIT: Actualy I have read almost all and I am very tired and I am just calling it quits.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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I agree Santa is a fake, Norton. Santa Claus mythology is absolutely despicable during the Christmas season. I vote for getting rid of Santa imagery. Let's have Loch Ness Monster figurines and Valkyries with battery powered wings ...... although Bigfoot cast in milk chocolate would be much more American !
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Bronwyn, many of us are born with a built-in spirituality, a need to believe in a God. It's why god(s) exist. It's not clear where or how this trait, this part of humans, but it is facinating. There isn't really evidence for it in other animals, or is there?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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So, two questions. One question for Werner, or anyone else who is certain that something or someone intelligent designed this complicated universe. And one for Ed or anyone else who points back to the Big Bang as the correct explanation.
For the first group: As I understand it, the reasoning is along the lines of "it's way too complicated to be random, so it therefore had to have been created by some intelligence." Werner put it as clearly as anyone when he said above "Lay all the parts on the table and it takes intelligence to put them together. A retard and/or idiot can't do it. It doesn't happen by any random accident." Given that this is correct -- and I'm not saying it isn't correct -- Where did that intelligence come from? Did it just spring out of nowhere one day? Did it "always exist"? And where did it get the matter to create everthing? Where was all that matter before God (or the Flying Spaghetti Monster or whatever) turned it into what we have now?
Now, for the second group: Given that the scientific evidence of a Big Bang, and the evidence of evolution are correct -- and again, I'm not saying it's not -- What happened before the Big Bang? If all the matter in the universe exploded out of some super-compact mass, where was it before that?
As far as I can tell, neither "God made it" nor "It was created in the Big Bang" does anything except bump the real question one stage further back.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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The commercialized Santa of modern America is a fake, but there was an actual St. Nicholas who lived in Asia Minor in the 6th century who was known for his charity. His birthday is Dec. 6 which is when many Europeans give their gifts, not on Christmas which is a religious holiday.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2009 - 07:18pm PT
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or, modern humans are hard wired with the will to rise to the top of the
food chain, and with the tremendous will to survive.
The very thought of all that struggle simply ending in nothingness,
it too unbearable to believe in, so we created the concept of an afterlife.
This can be seen as far back as 20,000 years ago when humans buried
their friends and family with personal artifacts, no doubt wishing
that whatever happened to the dead, maybe they could use some of the stuff.
This long time hardwired desire to not accept the finality of death
is the birthplace of and the reason why, humans later created organized religions.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Skipt!
Yes, Dionysus, Bishop of Alexander in the third century determined that it was written by "John the Elder". He felt that the language, style and thought of Revelation was different from the writings of John.
Although the earliest witnesses in church history such as Justin Martyr in the 2nd century Ad.(100's) agreed that the apostle John authored Revelation. And many others came to the conclusion that the author wrote with apostolic authority that was recognised at that time. And furthermore that striking parallels exist between the Gospel of John and his 3 epistles and Revelations.
I am sure there is good arguments towards both. Whats important is its Its authenticity, which I am sure of and that it is a Revelation of Jesus Christ. I believe the Bible as it came to be for the last thousand or so years is exact as God(who has all the power to do this)meant for it to be. I don't spend allot of time in Rev. Daniel and Isaiah and the New testament cover similar prophecy.
Thanks for pointing this out.
Sincerely, Trip~
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2009 - 07:23pm PT
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I was not talking about "Santa", but rather "god".
Go back and re read, and substitute god for Santa.
And you have the same "belief" system children are taught.
When children are NOT taught by adults that a Santa or a god is real and exists,
those children do not have to bother with those concepts.
They can live and die just fine, without santa or god stories.
They are not born with sin that they have to be saved from by organized
religious rituals.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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I was just jesting, Norton.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Triple 7-
I'm old enough to have gone to public schools in Texas where prayer was offered every day and it's not the solution to anything, except that it makes the adults feel good. We mumbled our way through the Lord's Prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance every morning and unless a child also had training at church or home, no kid could explain what any of it meant. It was just a rote saying.
The pledge by the way, did not include the words "under God". These were added in the late '50's in response to the Cold War, just about the time you think the country started going downhill.
I might add that back in the good old days of school prayer, we also went to segregated schools and churches. The whites had a big brick school with all the amenities and the Blacks had a one room school with an outhouse in the back. I can guarantee you there were far worse periods in American history than today, particularly if you were a member of an ethnic minority.
Meanwhile, the people of Texas still live with the hypocritical legacy of Bible thumping religion. How many people have died in auto accidents because they had to drive to the next county to buy alcohol? All the while the smug religionists tell you that they believe in the Bible literally until it comes to Jesus turning water into wine. That's a mistranslation. Everyone knows it was Welch's grape juice.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2009 - 07:44pm PT
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Jennie, you had me worried there. Sorry, for assuming otherwise!
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Skip, all I was trying to say was not to confuse the character of God with the dogma and behaviors of the Catholic Church. That's all.
Guess I got a bit too quick and impassioned with the typing.
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nutjob
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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This is my first click in this thread, thought I would hop in and see what was worth 3000+ posts. Carry on.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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After a bit of extra research, it's plain that there is room for debate on the authorship of the book of Revelation even though the language style and words used differ from the Gospel of John (the authorship of which is also in dispute since it doesn't claim to be written by John. (the title was tacked on)
But we should forget the book of Revelation for now, the best scholarship points to the conclusion that it was referencing event current at the time, not 2000 years in the future and both Jesus and his followers were plainly expecting the big bang within a generation.
Not to mention, the horrible track record of so many preachers naming dates for Christ's returns based on some "scientific" accounting from Revelations. Much crow has been eaten.
777 wrote
"Karl-"no post over three paragraphs is read".
To begin with I have been up since you went to bed last night.
And two when 5 people are asking you 5 questions each every ten minutes just try and keep up Karl!!?
My post was directed at Base104, who wrote a big post that nobody responded to. Giving him a hard time (but admit that I still didn't read it) Too much time wasted on the topo for me.
But I did read his post regarding "How you treat the least among you" and thought that was a gem which reflected the heart of Christ's teachings. If believers and atheists would embrace more of that, we'd have a better world
peace
karl
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nutjob
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Werner sayeth:
It is an absolute fact that creation has purpose and design by intelligence".
The part I latch onto most readily is: What created the natural laws which we have observed and documented in the fields of chemistry and physics? Maxwell's equations, laws of thermodynamics and kinematics and optics, etc. What created the conditions that resulted in the Big Bang?
I'm no fan at all of organized religion. I do believe that simple processes operating in an environment with simple rules can produce something of immense interest and complexity. Just doing experiments with cellular automata and reviewing the classic icons of Chaos theory is enough to show that. You can extrapolate evolution and self-organizing concepts into this framework.
But the fact that there is gravity, electricty, magnetism, strong & weak forces, that shape the interaction of quarks into atoms, into molecules, into cells and coded instructions for proteins with regulatory switches affected by other instructions and environmental inputs, into organisms with reasoning capacity and billions of neurons, which create systems that can research, document, and aggregate an increasing pile of accumulated knowledge across generations.... well to me this is simply miraculous and cause to believe in a higher power.
And like, I'll bet the dude who created the natural laws which humans have observed and categorized as "Maxwell's Equations," well that dude must have gotten 1600 on his SAT.
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nutjob
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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WHen you are an engineer troubleshooting a problem, you can quickly determine whether or not you have the necessary skills to address the problem.
In the case of Creation, I know I don't have the skills to solve the root problem. I just know that whatever created the natural laws of our universe that we have observed, well that represents structure, organization, something beyond nothingness, and beyond that, I cannot comprehend it. I further believe that no human can comprehend it, and anyone who claims to have these answers and tries to convince others to follow their way of thinking is a huckster.
That said, I see nothing inherently wrong with creating a code of rules for harmonious living in society, and providing a source of faith and hope for folks who can't operate without it.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Jan!
Jesus said not to get drunk, He didn't say you couldn't have a glass of wine. Obviously wine has its benefits such as for digestion. He would have been a hypocrite for making wine if otherwise. And I believe He wanted the people at the wedding to enjoy themselves, it was a requirement back then and a staple used at every meal.
Now days if a Christian is seen holding a can of beer anywhere they are labeled especially by other Christians. I drove up to Mammoth were I had lived for ten years, to ski and visit friends during the mid 80's. One of my good friends asked me to help shovel snow one day(a very well known person in the these parts). Along with three other very good friends that would be instantly recognised here(first ascents on El Cap etc). Well after we finished a long days work he showed up with a six pack of talls. We were all dehydrated. He tossed one to me and whats the big deal, I popped it and guzzled a few swigs...OK I guzzled the whole damn thing and begged for another one. Just kidding!! Well anyway I drank most of the one beer and when I get back to L.A. another friend of ours(My roommate) already has heard that I was downing multiple beers etc. It wasn't true. I simply drank 3/4 of a beer.
That is pretty much the standard in civilization today. What can I say. Certain Preachers started dictating the law and it gave a bad name to the church. There is allot of self righteousness going on that's for sure. I think most people know when they are doing something they shouldn't be, without somebody else sticking there nose into things.
Kind of reminds me of Jesus and the lady they were going to stone to death for adultry. Jesus said "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone". And then I believe He started to write the ten commandments on the ground. The oldest left first because they had broke more of the commandments. One by one they left with their heads hung low until only she was left. There needs to be more of that today.
Like I said earlier, we didn't say prayers at all in school, but we could speak about God if we chose, the only time I recall doing so is when I wrote that essay, and that was because I was giving my honest interpretation of how I felt God had His hand on things here in America, I sure didn't say it was perfect, like I said it was largely about the equal rights of all mankind, regardless of color.
I was fortunate to grow up in an area of San Diego that was were there wasn't a majority. Like I said my best friends were black white and Hispanic and I had a couple oriental friends. My forth and six grade teachers where black-men. Think about it. How many white kids do you know with that experience. Mr. Cain, my sixth grade teacher was the biggest influence/role model of my whole life next to my father. I was class president the first half of the year, and a best friend a black kid was for the second half.
I was talking about how America was as far as the first half of the century compared to the last half of the century, or the seventies on.
Drugs were pretty much none existent until the mid to late sixties. And I did my share. Juvenile crime, killing disobedience towards parents(less than fifty% have two parents) and authority figures. Life in general Drugs are a scourge on this country. But hey, if it feels good do it. Look at all the gangs, drug cartels supplying America...com-on Jan. Things were far from perfect, they were never going to be but look at the early 60's compared to today.
Trip~
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Jan!
I just wanted to add, perhaps you remember the Michael Farmer killing in Central Park NYC 1959. It was all over the news, Life magazine etc. for months back then.
Michael Farmer was white crippled kid who was killed by a gang of young Puerto Rican kids. They stabbed him to death for kicks. M.F. lived with his mother/no father. It shocked the country. He was stabbed over seventy times.
Well today something like that would not even make the local front page news. Let alone national and magazine front page day after day. It happens everyday some where in America.
BTW a pastor by the name of James Wilkerson wrote a book about how God called him to drop his cushy life time position as Pennsylvania country pastor. And go and reach the very kids in prison and in the gangs on the streets of NYC. He lived in his car(it was winter when he got there) and his wife and daughter had to move in with her parents for years.
The book is called "The Cross and the Switchblade". It was eventually made into a movie staring Eric Estrada. That shows the miracle intervention of God through one man changing kids lives from heroin addicted thugs to productive citizens. You should check it out.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Speaking of hard-to-believe creation myths, the idea of the Big Bang starting creation always seemed fanciful. Now maybe it could be responsible for THIS universe, but even in a universe where time and space are relative and interrelated, there is still still enough linear time for trillions of googles of years to have elapsed for other universes to have come and gone.
And in fact, how can we even conceive of there being ANY beginning to it all, what before that.
That's why there's at least one more rational thing about some mystical views of the eternity of God. That Time is really an illusion which comes into being as God dreams the universe. There is no ultimate beginning or end because it arises from outside of time.
Think about it
Peace
Karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Karl-"My post was directed at Base104".
OH! Sorry.
Actually I havn't read them all either.
As if anyone cares.
Peace!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"It is an absolute fact that creation has purpose and design by intelligence. Not because some books says so, not because some scientist says so."
Or atheist that say's no!
Amen, brother!
Edit; Any monkey knows that!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Karl, your concept of space and time are quite quaint and very limited.... where does space-time come from at all? and does it exist without what we see around us?
Maybe the universe is much stranger than you think, and maybe that strangeness is even understandable.
It is a lot more interesting than any creation myth passed down to us from our past. Funny how that has authority, "the wisdom of the past" when we knew a lot less, and a lot more.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Ed wrote
"Karl, your concept of space and time are quite quaint and very limited.... where does space-time come from at all? and does it exist without what we see around us?"
Tell us what science conceives about time before the big bang Ed. Where are we heading a trillion trillion years from now? As long as you have any material in the universe, it seems there is some form of time, perhaps measured by atomic decay or the frequency of energy.
In a dream that manifests in an infinite consciousness, time isn't so constrained. It's a whole different ball game. Still, forget that and just explain about what science imagines. Are we at the obvious point yet where science admits that there may have been 100s of big bangs, universal expansions and contractions over the course of a google years?
The few billion we have any idea about are obviously chicken-feed don't you think?
peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Religion is so puzzling. Which one is right?
None of them.
All of them.
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WBraun
climber
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I think science wins out.
Pure mental speculation. You don't know.
Guessing gets one nowhere.
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WBraun
climber
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Nope
You're just guessing again.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Base104-"we like the Jews so that they can rebuild the Temple and then go to hell when Christ comes back".
Actually, first 144,000 Jews during the Tribulation are going to become modern day radical evangelist. And then after the Temple is rebuilt, the Antichrist is going to demand that he be worshiped as God in the Temple. At that time(about half way through the Tribulation/3.5yrs) is when they(Jews) will realise that Jesus was the true Messiah and they will flee Jeruselem for the hills and be supernaturally hidden there until Christs return with His saints. And they(Jews) along with the people that get saved during the Tribulation(tens of millions)will repopulate the earth for the next 1,000,000 years.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Come on 777, that sort of speculation is based on just one wacky interpretation of an apocalyptic book at the end of the bible that almost wasn't included in the councils that threw out some scripture and included others. Again many scholars believe it referred to the current times at 90am, not some future time when things get crazy
Christ will probably return as an Iraqi and be thrown in Gitmo. The status quo religion folks didn't honor him when he came last time and he preached reform. I'm sure he'd preach reform if he came again and what status quo guys are embracing reform now?
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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You just told me ......
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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You just told me ......
So when are you going to tell me, Werner? And Ed? I asked what I thought was a reasonable question a couple of pages back, but so far no comment. Lots more one-liners about other things, but no thoughtful answer...
?????
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Brian Hench-"Bronwyn, many of us are born with a built-in spirituality, a need to believe in God".
Actually we all are "Also He has put eternity in their hearts..."
This refers to a deep seated compulsive drive to transcend our mortality by knowing the meaning and destiny of the world. Because we are made in the image of God we have an inborn inquisitiveness about eternal realities. We can find piece only when we come to know our eternal Creator(The Prince of Peace). God has put eternity in the heart of all mankind.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Ghost, I read your post and to me it seemed like you answered your own question. Both can be correct, it is the great mystery.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Karl!
The first time He came as the lamb to be slaughtered(sacrificed).
The next time He is coming as a Lion. He said so Himself in the Gospels an the Old Testament along with Revelation.
EDIT: As The Lion of Judah!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Well, no. I mean yes, it is a great mystery, but no, I don't have any answer.
Other folks, on both sides of the argument, are pretty adamant that their answer is the correct one, so I was curious to hear what they'd say. So far, that's nothing.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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What's the question?
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WBraun
climber
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So when are you going to tell me, Werner?
hahaha
I can't tell you anything, as I myself know absolutely nothing at all.
But .... God is proven scientifically for anyone with good brain.
And it does not take any so called scientist, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or any so called rubber stamped secretarian sect to do so.
Even a simple child can understand ......
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Okay, Werner has stepped up and answered. He says he doesn't know anything, but asserts with authority that he knows that god is proven scientifically. That doesn't make any sense to me, and doesn't address my question at all, but at least he said something.
So Ed? How about you?
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WBraun
climber
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Thus who is the real holder of knowledge.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Ghost!
God states that He has always been. From eternity past. How He created matter is beyond our capacity to know. Genesis says He created by speaking it into being. At least He hasn't at this time felt it necessary for us to know everything.
Just like our finite minds, limited to time and space, cannot grasp eternity past. We can only look at the future and can imagine time possibly going on for ever. But we can't look back and imagine it going back in time for ever.
Like I mentioned earlier, with God there is no time. "A day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like a day". They are the same to Him. Time was created with the fall of man and the slow decaying(death of all living things) including the earth and the universe, and of course man. Our time here on Earth(compared to eternity) is even less than one drop of water compared to all the drops of water in all the seas. If you could remove it one drop at a year, eventually(trillions of years) it would be all gone.
He describes our lives by comparing them to a whif of smoke"There one second and then it is gone". Eventually there will be no longer any time as we know it.
I feel as if I just used allot of words to say nothing, but that is about the best I can do right know. Obviously there are many that have much better knowledge/insight of this subject than I do.
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jstan
climber
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It would seem the moment when we realize we do not know something, is a turning point. And where we turn depends entirely upon whether we consider that lack of knowledge to be a crisis or on the other hand consider it to be an opportunity. It seems some people have a need for "certainty" that others do not. These are quite simply two different psychological states.
The data we have right now is very suggestive that a big bang (however that can be modelled) did happen. The question has been asked, what came before that moment. If lack of certainty is thought to make one vulnerable you have to dream up something to plug that hole. If you say what you have dreamed up assertively enough, no one will know the difference. As long as no one thinks to question.
On the other hand lack of knowledge can be seen as an opportunity to exercise the mind. Based upon present day models dating back just over a hundred years of thought, I believe some are arguing that with the mass/energy concentrations extant at that moment, space and time actually began with the big bang. Other theorists are arguing for a beer model. We actually have an infinite number of parallel universes that cannot see each other. Each one like one of the bubbles in the head on a glass of beer. Imagine for a moment, if you will, you are a person who likes to think. What might you say when this problem is posed to you? Possibly,
"Whoa dude! You can't get any further out than this!"
I don't have first hand knowledge of what the people in the time of Abraham were like. Surely the rapidly advancing production of food via agriculture was giving people more time to think. Perhaps we need only look to today to see what might have been true then. People then surely would have been just as interested as are we to argue endlessly, even pointlessly, over the internet. And they, just like ourselves, each had past experiences and the need to make themselves a place in the world. Did Moses once stand up after his morning ablutions exclaiming, "You know that approach might just work!. I think I shall give it a try today. We'll just see where it goes."
It all may have been just an experiment.
David's statement below that he is not comfortable with some answers, is a fairly common fact of life. This is a central part of life. Learning to sort through things, none of which make one comfortable.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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TripL7, I'm familiar with the Christian answer. Grew up listening to it. That's why I didn't ask you (not that I mind hearing your thoughts). But Werner comes to this subject from a different perspective, and I wondered what he might have to say.
And just as I find the standard Christian answer (God created it all, but God himself simply "always was") to be unsatisfactory, so also do I find the insistence of some scientists that "The Big Bang created it all" to be unsatisfactory. Although in a different way. Hence my question to Ed asking about what came before the big bang.
Edit: Damn! Stannard nailed it while I was writing this. It's all about BEER! And since, as a brewer, I create beer...
Well, I'll leave the conclusion of that thought up to you all. I'm off to crack a cold one.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Now, for the second group: Given that the scientific evidence of a Big Bang, and the evidence of evolution are correct -- and again, I'm not saying it's not -- What happened before the Big Bang? If all the matter in the universe exploded out of some super-compact mass, where was it before that?
Ghost, what's the matter with your reading comprehension? you can't go out and learn this yourself? You are posting to a climber's forum...
...and I will answer this, but Skip may want to weigh in on whether or not I'm being dogmatic and not being "fair and balanced" in my presentation of science, after all, some of his best friends are demonstrably better scientists than I am.
But I will post here a reply... (Karl, I'm already sufficiently worn out that I'll let your enticing question pass, after all, you wouldn't really believe, or understand what I have to say on the subject)...
Cosmology today is different, very different, than it was 10 years ago, and it will probably be very different in 10 years.
The Cosmological Principle which is where everything begins states that the universe is spatially isotropic and homogenous. With Einstein's equations, any universe in which the Cosmological Principle is true "must have started with a singularity of infinite density." (See S. Weinberg, Gravitation and Cosmology ©1972 page 469). This formed the basis of the "standard model of cosmology."
Add to this, however, the existence of dark energy and dark matter and many of the puzzles pieces provided by observation that didn't fit, now do. The dark energy and the dark matter dominate our current universe, the material that we are made of is sum small fraction of the gravitational mass in the universe, about 4%.
Further, at the very beginning there was an era of "inflation," rapid expansion. While this is not entirely understood, what it does is relieve the "fine tuning" problem. That means that what ever the starting conditions are of this universe, things end up pretty much like they are now...
Given all this, the total energy of the universe is zero... add it all up, all the potential energy, all the kinetic energy, everything... it sums to zero. And not approximately zero, but really zero. Which means the universe lasts forever... how odd.
So what came before? Which is Ghost's question...
...but we might consider first what is space and time, and where does that come from?
One can view the big bang as the "beginning of time" in an operational sense, emerging from the other dimensions, let's call them space. So the dimensionality of the universe prior to the big bang may have been quite different with very different physics. I have been lately intrigued with these ideas of "pre-geometry" and have taken it up as a hobby. If we have occasion to sit around a real campfire sometime in the future I'll torture you with a discussion... the Vedauwoo 09 crew suffered through my confused mumblings.
Other ideas are that there are a lot of universes out there, that our universe is just a part of a vast set of them...
Other ideas are that we are just on one of the bounces of the current universe, it expands and contracts crunching in on itself to expand again...
All of these ideas are built to explain various aspects of the current cosmology that are not fully understood. Part of the answer will come when we understand the quantum theory of gravity, what ever it will be... and a necessary ingredient for knowing about the time of the big bang when quantum gravity is operating.
I guess the bottom line is that as we tease apart these little puzzles, arcane little puzzles that are of no real direct consequence to our daily life, we assemble the building blocks of knowledge that will let us understand this someday, whatever the answer.
Perhaps its a luxury our country no longer wishes to indulge in... let's put our collective noses to the grindstone and solve the really important problems.
Like Skip said, why does any of this matter to a starving kid somewhere in the heartland of America?
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WBraun
climber
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why does any of this matter to a starving kid somewhere in the heartland of America?
It does matter.
Once the cause if all causes is understood correctly then all other problems can be correctly and intelligently dealt with.
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jstan
climber
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Me! Me! Let me answer Skip's question!
If I were a starving kid in New Jersey( poke poke) what would I want more than anything else? To feel that I was becoming more powerful and more able to get food.
Thomas Edison had been so traumatized by his passage through childhood he continued sleeping on his desk long after he was wealthy.
Nothing contributes more to a sense of adequacy and power over one's fate than the willingness to confront big questions. The bigger the better.
Edit:
Skip:
The bigger the better,
Base104
"Drink a cup of coffee to answer a couple of stupid questions. To me, Cosmology is IT. The study of everything."
Quid est demonstrandum
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WBraun
climber
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Once the cause of all causes is understood then knowledge can expand infinitely.
Not that there becomes an end, finite, stagnate, but ever fresh, new.
Why you think you take a bath?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Ed wrote a very good post on the previous page which included
"One can view the big bang as the "beginning of time" in an operational sense, emerging from the other dimensions, let's call them space. So the dimensionality of the universe prior to the big bang may have been quite different with very different physics."
Of course, if time has a beginning, it can have an end and even begin again, which would go fine with another thing Ed wrote
"Other ideas are that we are just on one of the bounces of the current universe, it expands and contracts crunching in on itself to expand again..."
Which is what Eastern Religions have been saying for thousands of years more or less.
"Other ideas are that there are a lot of universes out there, that our universe is just a part of a vast set of them..." Another aspect of Eastern mystical thought.
Just sayin
Peace
Karl
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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It's not mystical, Karl...
what is your answer to the question: what is space? what is time?
try to give a scientific answer, not a mystical one... it doesn't have to be mathematically rigorous, just what you think these things are, physically....
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Ed, thank you very much.
If I can condense your answer to the question "What came before" it would be as "We don't know, but we're trying to find out." Which, to me at least, is pretty reasonable. Far more reasonable than the standard religious answer (of whatever religious flavor) of "God made the world, and you must not question any further." I look forward to being tormented with your own theories around a campfire. (J-Tree in January????)
Personally, my belief is that our current operating system is not capable of processing the data needed for an answer, nor even of understanding the answer if it was put in front of us. Unfortunately, upgrading that operating system will take place over a period of time long enough that none of us here now will still be around to get the upgrade.
In the meantime, we are left with the problem of dealing with the starving children. And not just in the heartland of America, but everywhere.
D
Edit: Ed, you said "Other ideas are that we are just on one of the bounces of the current universe, it expands and contracts crunching in on itself to expand again..." Somewhere (Amazon?) you might be able to find a copy of a science fiction novel from the 1950s titled "The Weapon Shops of Isher" I think you'd like it.
And you might also like an episode from Season 5 of "Red Dwarf" in which it becomes clear that Lister, the ultimate atheist, turns out in fact to be god, and whose purpose in the game of life is to jump start the second big bang.
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jstan
climber
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Karl:
There was an old argument whether it is possible for information to escape a black hole. It is a second law of thermodynamics issue according to Hawking. I am probably way out of date on this fast advancing front. But the answer might have an impact on the eastern ideas of "reborn" realities if you will.
But the data is apparently showing the most distant galaxies moving away from us faster than predicted(Einstein's cosmological constant). The bounce or "crunch" model is losing favor relative to the "cold and lonely" model. If this were more widely understood by people generally I would expect there to be serious levels of discomfort.
A fairly deep seated psychological need is probably the source of reincarnation and other such extensions.
Seems to be looking grim right now on that score.
But you never know- absolutely.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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it is in front of us, it always is...
we just have to see it, and then understand it...
January is a hope in my heart... my back is not regenerating at a rate that is compatible with that date right now... but maybe I'll be surprised
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WBraun
climber
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Well
If one takes birth again as a human being in their next life then your operating system upgrade analogy will kind of apply.
It will not be an upgrade though if your consciousness is not advanced beyond that of just plain mundane gross physical materialism.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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jstan and Ed-
Thanks for your contributions. You really outdid yourselves today. What you had to say, provides the scientific basis of my own personal belief system anyway, though you both are free to disown my conclusions, as you probably will.
I do agree with jstan that psychologically one either likes structure, or one likes ambiguity and exploration. Those who like structure want clear, once and for all answers, and just can't understand why those of us who like complexity and mystery can't interpret their one sacred scripture in the same way that they do.
Conversely, those of us who like complexity, mystery, and exploration, can't for the life of us understand why anyone would want to limit their understanding of something as great as God, man and the universe, to one interpretation of one book. Probably these two approaches to life will never be reconciled. At least not on this thread!
Still, I think the idea from modern cosmology that we are probably one of several parallel universes allows for not only materialist ambiguity but a spiritual understanding as well. A common thread of spiritual thinkers is that they are able to access other dimensions of reality that are as real as ours. Even Jesus said, "in my father's house are many mansions".
Meanwhile I have a wonderful little book by Lawrence LeShan called The Medium, the Mystic and the Physicist, which gives quotes from all three about the nature of reality and asks the reader to try to determine which of the three said it.
I know Ed will probably be quick to note that all of this is just a product of our own material brains, but I think there is just too much evidence that consciousness is something else - at least at this stage of our understanding. As a modern scientifically trained person, I do have to admit that the materialist explanation may be correct, based on future evidence. I just don't see that evidence now.
The strong point of science of course is that they keep on seeking and refining their answers. The strong point of seekers on the spiritual path is the same. It is the religionists with all the answers that scare both the scientists and spiritual seekers.
Edit: It seems I have just reiterated what Ghost has posted with three times more words!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jstan wrote
"Karl:
There was an old argument whether it is possible for information to escape a black hole. It is a second law of thermodynamics issue according to Hawking. I am probably way out of date on this fast advancing front. But the answer might have an impact on the eastern ideas of "reborn" realities if you will."
Didn't Ed just post that the big bang originated from a singularity (black hole right?) So if everything in the universe can get sucked up into an infinite singularity, and then burst out, how far from a cyclical universe is that.
Ed, there are many ways to talk about time, depending on the situation of the observer. You can explain the scientific aspect of it regarding the physical.
I only have significant knowledge of the mystical, which is that time is the dimension of change in this world that makes experience possible, but that the ultimate reality is outside of time and thus, all possibilities are present in an eternal now of supreme being. My experience is that time is more fluid than anyone suspects.
Nobody can really wrap their minds around that but hey, few can wrap their minds around physics conceptions of time as well
Peace
karl
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jstan
climber
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Karl:
The argument about escape actually goes deeper. All information expressed in the incoming matter is completely lost in the black hole. So even if the crunch model does prove to be correct no one is getting reborn anyway. Everything is lost in the singularity.
Jan:
My advice is to listen most carefully to Ed.
I think our understanding of psychology is only now advancing beyond the level of "old guys with bad combovers"( see comments to nutty putty link) standing around a campfire while waving bones.
The real mystery is what is located between our ears. I wish I knew whether an advance in our understanding of that area will make things better---or worse.
I suppose though, if our present course is headed for oblivion, things can't get any worse.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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you're copping out, Karl... you aren't defining any of these things "they just are" and that's the point, maybe they actually do come from something else... but you won't bite.
Jan, yes I am convinced that consciousness is explainable based on it's material origin. That is entirely different from saying what the results of consciousness, the thoughts, could be determined. Actual thoughts are probably not describable in detail. It is the weather... we know where it comes from, we can't pin down the initial conditions precisely enough to follow it very long.
I turn it around, all those mystical things, those spiritual feelings, the awareness of universal one-ness is those thoughts, and they probably have an explanation that is not too crazy based on the evolution of consciousness.
Don't believe everything you think.
It doesn't make those things less wonderful, in some ways perhaps more so... the universe is amazing just the way it is without all that other stuff. At least the universe that I know. You can appropriate the ideas of physics and create a homology, but I always find that the physics can also exist quite separately from the spiritual, it's like recognizing faces in clouds, the clouds are fine without the faces... once again, it's the way you brain works and the model it constructs of the world.
As far as liking complexity and mystery, count me in, it's what scientists deal with... the challenge is to see what is simple in that complexity and to make it familiar. Science is an adventure, an intellectual one. It is the future... the old stories that attempted to do the same thing, to make the universe understandable, contain important elements of wisdom. But as practiced today, those old stories fall far from presenting a reasonable explanation of universe.
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jstan
climber
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The very first time I logged onto ST I saw Roger Breedlove trying to lead people away from personalizing everything and to start thinking in terms of hypotheses.
This thing he started--- has legs.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jstan writes
"Karl:
The argument about escape actually goes deeper. All information expressed in the incoming matter is completely lost in the black hole. So even if the crunch model does prove to be correct no one is getting reborn anyway. Everything is lost in the singularity. "
Actually in the Indian cosmology (one iteration of it anyway) at the end of the cosmic cycle, all of creation returns to absolute form within the supreme being. All physical information being lost in the singularity wouldn't be an issue or conflict with that model
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Ed wrote
"you're copping out, Karl... you aren't defining any of these things "they just are" and that's the point, maybe they actually do come from something else... but you won't bite."
We are looking at it from different perspectives and attitudes Ed. From the standpoint of mysticism, time, space, and everything else are the manifestation of concepts in the divine mind. The human mind can't rationally encompass the big picture, different levels of reality have different situations of time. Like in science, it depends on the observer in some ways.
And you ask for a definition of time but such would require a circular definition, (you have to already know about it to understand the definition)
Let's face it, like gravity, science doesn't have time "down" yet such that you can be sure what will be discovered about it. I can shine photons around if I'm benighted on a climb but can't do crap about gravitons, if they even exist.
peace
karl
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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don't tell that to your GPS, it's making general relativistic corrections to the satellite clocks so you know where you are.... we know a lot about gravity, enough to get the big picture... there's more to learn
so if we have some definition of the "state" of a thing we move it to another state by some "operation" on it
imagine a universe where there are states and operators
one of those operators may change the energy of the state, and the operation may be constrained, for instance, the total energy has to be conserved, etc...
those symmetries that define the constraints on the operation, the energy operator in this case, creates the change of one state into another into another... the energy operator we associate with time translation in quantum mechanics
so from a universe of infinite dimension, once the symmetries of the operators manifest themselves, we have time... similarly with space an the momentum operator...
But there may be places in the universe where different operator symmetries exist, say in a black hole, etc... and the "dimension" of space could be different there, as well as the nature of time...
the dimensions we are familiar with in the universe aren't absolute, they depend on the local operator symmetries for moving things from one state to another.
You can look at this as an affirmation of you mystical ideas, but these ideas are based on a rigorous physical argument, and they make definite predictions about the nature of our universe we can go out and look for...
...the very dimension of the universe could be a very indefinite thing to experience, totally understandable and logical, but very different than the model evolved into our brains.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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As I understand it, the mystics of all traditions say that our microcosmic brains reflect the macrocosmic universe, at least from the point of view of our current universe. Thus they agree on methodologies and insights at a level much deeper than the differing historical religions. At the least, mystical religion demonstrates the similar hardware (the brain) and similar consciousness of human beings who use their hardware in a certain way. That in itself is beyond the understanding of most humans on this planet at this time since they are still looking at only their own ethnic and cultural structures.
The current great religions of this planet originated as early agricultural religions. At least most people are no longer worshipping animal spirits or fertility goddesses. I think the future evolutionary steps will be:
-a gradual recognition that almost all of these teach similar ethical precepts and are aiming for the same goal and need not conflict with each other
-an eventual realization that the mystics of all these traditions went way beyond this perception to understandings and perhaps actual dimensions, that the previous levels can only imagine
-a reconcilation of these mystical ideas with some kind of scientific model
The interesting thing will be whether the scientists will agree to the scientific model that the new mystical belief systems settle on and also, whether the mystical models will be able to adapt as science discovers new things, or will in turn become as frozen as the current early agricultural relgions.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"Religion is so puzzling. Which one is right?
Hum, Lord Almighty Jesus, let me think about this one...
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Agree with you 100% skipt. Love can and will cause anything
to happen. All we need is love!
For example:
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WBraun
climber
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locker -- "POP"em' while they're HOT"...
You knucklehead, that's lust not love ....
Love has nothing to do with sex.
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jstan
climber
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I have made a minor modification to Skip's post.
What strikes me most as I continue to read through these posts is how utterly devoid of life people can be when they refuse to see the world except through a framework of WHAT THEY HAVE CHOSEN TO BELIEVE.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Well Skip, the thread OP is about creationism. Traditional religion could do very well if it stayed devoted to Love and it's ability to unite us and connect us to God. Instead, many have tried to make it an exact science and impose it on society and that brings out the "Lifeless" side of the argument. It goes both ways as fundamentalists can be quite lifeless in putting dogma over Love.
Ed wrote
"You can look at this as an affirmation of you mystical ideas, but these ideas are based on a rigorous physical argument, and they make definite predictions about the nature of our universe we can go out and look for..."
Mysticism makes definite repeatable predictions as well Ed, and other mystics can go out and look.
"so from a universe of infinite dimension, once the symmetries of the operators manifest themselves, we have time... similarly with space an the momentum operator...
But there may be places in the universe where different operator symmetries exist, say in a black hole, etc... and the "dimension" of space could be different there, as well as the nature of time.."
Eastern thought, for a few thousand years, has recognized that different "dimensions" or densities of reality experience time and space differently. It could be reckoned in other religions as well to some degree. Some of it is a bit specific and other times it's along the lines of "one day in heaven is like a thousand years on earth"
An interesting definition for the smallest unit of time in Hinduism bears mentioning. It is defined as the time it takes for light to traverse an Anu, (atom) the smallest unit of matter. Pretty interesting that well over a thousand or two years ago Light was both regarded as a constant on the physical level and the fastest speed.
"...the very dimension of the universe could be a very indefinite thing to experience, totally understandable and logical, but very different than the model evolved into our brains."
Totally agree on that one
Wanted repost the link that somebody posted higher.
http://revver.com/video/99898/imagining-the-tenth-dimension/
That's a good mind warper and that's medicine for getting outside our assumptions about wassup
Peace
Karl
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dirtbag
climber
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What strikes me most as I continue to read through these posts is how utterly devoid of life people can be when they refuse to see the world except through a framework of science.
I always suspected it but man......
WTF are you babbling about?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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So let me apologize to the SuperTopo Forum for apparently putting some people down and distracting them from what really is important.
And apologize especially too the STForum members who believe that my posts have some sort of social agenda which offends them.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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So let me apologize to the SuperTopo Forum for apparently putting some people down and distracting them from what really is important.
And apologize especially true to the STForum members who believe that my posts have some sort of social agenda which offends them.
"apologize . . . to . . . members who believe . . .
They believe in fairy tales too.
Why should you apologize for something that some people with persecution complexes are imagining and taking offense at?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Skip-
I agree that love is most important. However, there are many kinds of love, which suit different personalities. For example:
eros - romantic and sensual love
philos - love of knowledge
agape - selfless universal love
All spiritual traditions say that universal love for strangers in need, for the welfare of humanity in general, and even those who dislike you, is a higher form than love for one's own family as you are advocating.
Sometimes that love is expressed in what seem like dry ways, yet has a greater universal impact than emotional love of any kind. The discoverers of penicillin and the polio vaccine for example, were motivated by a great dal of impersonal curiosity yet their discoveries resulted in great human welfare - practical universal love.
In an age when alternatives to fossil fuels must be found, those who do basic research into the nature of the universe are demonstrating a universal love for this planet and its inhabitants. Their path is just not your path, that's all.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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God is sooo wonderful, awesome, loving, kind, merciful, forgiving, and we have only scratched the surface of what we see and know, and what He let us know in the Bible! Triple bump to God...!!!
“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—
TO GOD BE ALL THE GLORY!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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So, Gobee, how you say "nyeah nyeah nyeah" in Aramaic?
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MH2
climber
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Holy Smoke!
Physicists provide a well-founded story of how the entire universe unfolded, and people still say, "Well, yes, of course, that's very nice, but what came before that?"
Please, people, they need to rest up before the next miracle.
Me, I will just take the question as unanswered and not well defined.
This thread began with Ardi and Creationism but keeps going because of religion and science.
On the religion side:
I was baptized in the Fourth Congregational Church, Austin, Texas. "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." Pretty sure what baptism is, not so sure about belief.
I've been exposed to religion and am particularly impressed with the Society of Friends silent meetings, where the goal is for everyone to center down, to avoid directed thought, to empty the mind far as possible. When the mind is calm and quiet and still, that which is most important to a person can rise to the surface. In a silent meeting, anyone who feels the need to stand up and say something to the group is welcome to do so.
On the science side:
Science is about questions that can be answered. First you come up with a question, then you ask if it can be answered, then you ask if you are the person to answer it.
Science never asks what a thing "is". Science asks; What happens if you poke it with a stick? Or whatever gets a response.
Upthread there is a reference to the mystery of what is between our ears. I once was a student in neurophysiology. My advisor J. Goldberg got into the field partly because he was profoundly moved by the experience of listening to classical music and wondered if there was something in the brain that could explain that.
At the time it seemed reasonable to start at the periphery, the ear in this case, and follow the signal into the brain. The great Nelson Kiang had pioneered micro-electrode recordings from fibers of the 8th nerve while presenting the ear with sounds of different frequency and volume. Once you know what the signal is in the auditory nerve, you could see what happens to that signal in the brainstem nuclei supplied by that nerve, long since described by anatomists.
One of the first structures to get information from the auditory nerve is the dorsal cochlear nucleus. J. Goldberg said, "I couldn't understand what the dorsal cochlear nucleus was doing." He made important contributions to how the brainstem brings together information from both ears and uses it to estimate the direction a sound came from. He did a lot of other great work, too.
The point is, it isn't easy to study why the brain likes music.
When studying the brain it is best to start with some job you know it does, like figuring out where a noise came from, and then asking how it does that. The job itself should be well understood before asking how the brain does it.
And although when deciding what to study and how to study it, one tries to be systematic, there is still room for the unexpected, the idea that comes out of the blue, the result you weren't looking for.
And I am only talking about correlative neurophysiology, where you have control over the stimulus, or good measurement of the inputs, and record some sort of output.
If we had the hypothetical device that could record from all the neurons of Karl's brain during his experience of the spiritual, how would we use the opportunity? What, if anything, could we learn? Could we match up his objectively measured mental activity with his report of his experience?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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MH2
Interesting that you should ask........
I've just finished reading a book called The Fingerprints of God in which all aspects of brain research related to spirituality are covered. Neuro scientists can now tell us that the frontal lobes are related to meditation and quieting the mind, while Pentacostal and Charismatic type phenomena are related to parietal lobe activity on the side. Catholic nuns and Buddhist monks light up exactly the same frontal part of the brain. Catholic nuns and Pentacostal Christians light up different parts.
Meanwhile, Tibetan master meditators, exhibet extra speedy brain waves when not meditating which was a surprise. It turns out they are in a state of hyper alertness without the anxiety usually associated with that state. Also, Pentacostal types exhibet a thalmus which is up to 15% larger on the right brain side. No data on meditators.
And that's only one chapter in the book.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Catholic nuns and Pentacostal Christians light up different parts.
Yup, looking at the pictures of nuns that some people post on this forum, I'd have to agree that they light up a different part of my brain than Pentacostal Christians.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"If we had the hypothetical device that could record from all the neurons of Karl's brain during his experience of the spiritual, how would we use the opportunity? What, if anything, could we learn? Could we match up his objectively measured mental activity with his report of his experience?"
They've hooked 15-25 year experienced meditators to eeg machines and established that they can remain aware during the deep sleep delta state. I ca confirm that I can consistently remain aware during this state as well, and that it's a peaceful serene place to be.
Thus, Spirit or no Spirit, our minds can benefit from tending and a discipline which is more (or less) than just more intense thinking. Happiness is within so learning to manage the mind has benefits whether you expect to find spiritual insight or not
Peace
Karl
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"The point is, it isn't easy to study why the brain likes music."
Psalm 98:4-6, Make a joyful noise to the Lord, all the earth;
break forth into joyous song and sing praises!
Sing praises to the Lord with the lyre,
with the lyre and the sound of melody!
With trumpets and the sound of the horn
make a joyful noise before the King, the Lord!
Ephesians 5:18-20, but be filled with the Spirit, addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart, giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ
James 5:13, Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise.
Revelation 5:9-10, And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth.”
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Information is not knowledge.
Knowledge is not wisdom.
Wisdom is not truth.
Truth is not beauty.
Beauty is not love.
Love is not music.
Music is the best.
Frank Zappa
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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No, Catholic girls are easy. ;-)
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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What about little Jewish Princess's?
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Ed, I think most people on this thread, myself included, appreciate your posts and take no offense whatsoever.
I am a Christian but I am also a layperson who has studied quantum physics and continues to be fascinated by the subject. I don't think this interferes at all with my faith; I believe that God wrote the laws of physics. I don't think any Christian should be afraid of honest scientific inquiry, and my appreciation for science only deepens my amazement over the complexities of creation.
I was not always a Christian but He used quantum physics and my fascination with the subject to draw me to Him. God does work in mysterious ways, indeed.
I don't need to know all the answers about evolution versus creation. I know I have had and continue to have personal experiences with the God of the Universe, and that relationship satisfies my heart and mind in ways that agnosticism and paganism never did. That is good enough for me.
Keep posting away!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Ed-
I think maybe you need more pain meds for your back!
Nobody has provoked more serious thought around here than you and 90%+ of us appreciate it. Those who don't appreciate it, can't or don't want to comprehend what you're saying. The rest of us are challenged to think and refine our own positions which is always a good thing.
My father said something very useful to me when I went away to college. "You may not understand even half of what the really good professors are saying but if they're good, you'll still be thinking about them and what they said ten years later and then you may start to understand".
I think you'll find the same with some of us ten years from now.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Karl-
I've been thinking a lot along similar lines lately, especially after reading two good books - The Death of the Mythic God and The Fingerprints of God. The first book details the decline of religion in the West and the second the latest brain research on spiritual experiences. I think they probably represent the past and the future of religion.
I'm thinking that in the future however, all may partake of the methodology of mysticism - the reprogramming of the mind, and it seems also the actual neural circuits and chemistry of the brain, in ways that make people happier and more compassionate.
Those who are secular by disposition will look at it as a rational tuneup and those who are spiritually inclined will see it as an encounter with the Divine. In both cases, the Divine will come to be seen more and more as manifesting within ourselves, and not the outside world.
Once we get to the point of having printouts of our entire DNA, we may even begin to classify ourselves as to variations on the gene which makes us either a natural mystic or a natural skeptic. We may well be asking each other in the future, "what's your gene" instead of "what's your sign"?
Even if we get to that point, we still won't have proved in any scientific sense, the answers to the metaphysical questions of whether or not this universe has a purpose or a consciousness behind or within it. And perhaps that's the perpetual condition of being human, to always intuit things which our current state of knowledge is incapable of proving.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Wonderful Post Jan
I've enjoyed your contributions a lot.
Agree with what you say. I think humans are "evolving" and more and more people are going to act more in harmony with their essential self, whether they realize it or not. More people will have inspirational experiences. One realization leads to another.
Times of transformation bring stress as the traditions give up their cherished dogma slowly but they already have done so partially in the past and will naturally adapt in the future. We're not going backwards..Blatant Slavery is over. Capital Punishment (like how they killed Jesus unjustly) is declining worldwide. Women have rights.
Making ourselves more sensitive aware humans by facing our inner demons, calming our minds, and working on our "stuff" so our hearts will open...that makes scientists happier with no blind faith and helps religious people hear the subtle voice of Spirit rather than their own fears and projections
Peace
Karl
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Psalms 127:1-2, Unless the Lord builds the house,
those who build it labor in vain.
Unless the Lord watches over the city,
the watchman stays awake in vain.
It is in vain that you rise up early
and go late to rest,
eating the bread of anxious toil;
for he gives to his beloved sleep.
1 Corinthians 4:7, What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?
Matthew 7:24-27, “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”
Hebrews 11:10, For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.
Ephesians 2:17-22, And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.1) By John MacArthur
Truth For Life - Pastor Alistair Begg
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Truth_for_Life/archives.asp
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MH2
climber
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Karl:
Thus, Spirit or no Spirit, our minds can benefit from tending and a discipline which is more (or less) than just more intense thinking. Happiness is within so learning to manage the mind has benefits whether you expect to find spiritual insight or not
Amen to that.
But be cautious of studies which find increases or decreases in brain "activity" under whatever conditions. There are lots of inhibitory synapses along with the excitatory types. Simply looking for an increase in activity, or a decrease, is considering the brain as a runner, for example, huffing and puffing on an uphill or cruising along a flat. The brain may not be like that. It may be that to work on a hard problem the brain first needs to shut down background noise. People may vary a lot in how efficient their brains are at doing different tasks. Localization has tricky aspects, too. The brain is highly interconnected and modest activity in one small part, whether measured as energy consumption or electrical output, can have large consequences elsewhere.
And vice versa. There is a lot of brain activity in seizure states but not a lot of clear thought.
You need one of these:
Until the End of the World, Wim Wenders director.
But don't let them read your dreams.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Proverbs 4: Hear, O sons, a father's instruction,
and be attentive, that you may gain insight,
2 for I give you good precepts;
do not forsake my teaching.
3 When I was a son with my father,
tender, the only one in the sight of my mother,
4 he taught me and said to me,
“Let your heart hold fast my words; keep my commandments, and live.
5 Get wisdom; get insight;
do not forget, and do not turn away from the words of my mouth.
6 Do not forsake her, and she will keep you;
love her, and she will guard you.
7 The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom,
and whatever you get, get insight.
8 Prize her highly, and she will exalt you;
she will honor you if you embrace her.
9 She will place on your head a graceful garland;
she will bestow on you a beautiful crown.”
10 Hear, my son, and accept my words,
that the years of your life may be many.
11 I have taught you the way of wisdom;
I have led you in the paths of uprightness.
12 When you walk, your step will not be hampered,
and if you run, you will not stumble.
13 Keep hold of instruction; do not let go;
guard her, for she is your life.
14 Do not enter the path of the wicked,
and do not walk in the way of the evil.
15 Avoid it; do not go on it;
turn away from it and pass on.
16 For they cannot sleep unless they have done wrong;
they are robbed of sleep unless they have made someone stumble.
17 For they eat the bread of wickedness
and drink the wine of violence.
18 But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn,
which shines brighter and brighter until full day.
19 The way of the wicked is like deep darkness;
they do not know over what they stumble.
20 My son, be attentive to my words;
incline your ear to my sayings.
21 Let them not escape from your sight;
keep them within your heart.
22 For they are life to those who find them,
and healing to all their flesh.
23 Keep your heart with all vigilance,
for from it flow the springs of life.
24 Put away from you crooked speech,
and put devious talk far from you.
25 Let your eyes look directly forward,
and your gaze be straight before you.
26 Ponder the path of your feet;
then all your ways will be sure.
27 Do not swerve to the right or to the left;
turn your foot away from evil.
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WBraun
climber
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This thread is now dead.
All the atheists burned out and went back to hell .......
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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is that where this is...
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jstan
climber
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No. We are just temporarily struck dumb by the transcendent logic above.
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MH2
climber
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We are just temporarily struck dumb by the transcendent logic above.
Ha!
Or someone with a horror of germs obsessively uses hand sanitizer for the brain.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Yep, some pretty awesome stuff from Ed, Jan, etc.
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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You folks do rule! Thanks for that.
And perhaps that's the perpetual condition of being human, to always intuit things which our current state of knowledge is incapable of proving.
I get stuck trying to believe it's possible that we can ever intuit the infinite using finite information. I guess I fall into the natural skeptic group.
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jstan
climber
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300 years before christ Euclid, who was living in Alexandria, showed the way. How to proceed from
the known to the newly known. Just think. 2300 years ago he had a better idea of the logical
process than do perhaps 50% of us today.
Where did we go wrong?
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Did we go wrong? My thinking tends more towards "how is that right?"
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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jstan-
I agree there's an amazing lack of logic around here. I myself would like to think I can recognize the difference between intuition and logic. However, as Ed has kindly pointed out on numerous occasions, this is not always the case with me either. Hence I keep trying to refine my parameters.
The problem is that intuition gives such a "feeling" of certainty, especially if repeated many times like a mantra, that after a time it comes to seem logical to the intuitive person. Enough Bible quotes, repeated enough times, and finally the unbeliever will have a breakthrough.
However, not every great scientific discovery, especially theoretical discovery, has been made with logic. Many came by intuition first and were shored up with logic and experiment later.
Some important discoveries like the round shape of organic molecules, were even discovered in dreams. The scientist dreamed repeatedly of a snake with its tail in its mouth rolling downhill, and finally woke with the realization that the snake represented organic molecules. Not exactly logical.
Meanwhile, I've come to think that the problem is the way science and math are taught. I personally think at the high school level, the emphasis should be on methodology rather than trying to learn so many facts. Math and Chemistry were ruined for me by rote memorization of meaningless formulas.
If anyone had said to me something poetic like these formulas represent the language of the universe, I would have been much more interested. If someone had said to me, God speaks in mathematics, there would have been no stopping me.
Instead, I'm interested in biology because of my trips to the mountains as a kid, and physics because of Frank and Richard Feynman. I'm also convinced that I would have understood math a whole better if I had been trained on an abacus which is visual, rather than numbers which for me, are not.
For me, as an intuitive person it works best to get the artistic and poetic overview first, and then buckle down to the step by step logic later. Maybe there should be two ways of teaching science and math, not just the dry logical way preferred by professional scientists?
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roadman
climber
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Dare I say that maybe science is too important to our society to be left entirely in the hands of scientists, particularly at the secondary education level? Maybe what science education in America really needs, is more art and poetry, and then the logic would follow?
What? kinda make no cents. Science education is doing just fine. It's where a lot of students are getting the foundation of all science that is evolution.
I'm a very artsy fartsy guy and sci came to me through nature. But, learning about the laws of nature? through art/poetry?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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I've already changed the wording on that because it occured to me that it would be misinterpreted by the logicians. Of course I didn't mean actual art and poetry, dare I say, literal art and poetry, but the artistic and poetic side of science. It does exist.
For instance, start with a tree, analyze what makes a tree beautiful to the human eye. Ask does the same criteria apply to the survival of the tree. Look at the tree as an entity, then at its individual parts. See what else is living on the tree, then think about ecology as a whole. Then talk about ecology and human interaction. Work in natural selection for both trees and humans. Then look at the physics of trees hanging off sides of cliffs and the chemistry of individual leaves and what happens with acid rain etc. Poetic and integrated science.
There's always time to learn the individual subjects of chemistry, biology, physics in college if the person makes it that far. Meanwhile, they have some idea of how science relates to their life and interests. Otherwise, science is just something that is endured to fill a requirement, and as soon as the final exam is over, the formulas and the logic are left at the door.
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roadman
climber
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Don't get me wrong Jan. I've worked as an evolutionary ecologist and find my peace in ecology and nature, more so than rocks for sure.
Lots of art in evo bio. Like the plants that use sperm and egg to reproduce! I know profs who bust ass to teach evo in a holistic way and make it "stick". It does too. I work with RA's and TA's on occasion who are in tune with nature the the art of life and how we are all changing.
Funny that evolution is simple: a change in gene frequency in a population.
And folks go crazy over teaching it. Most of whom have no idea what it is...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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roadman-
I don't think the problem is at the university level. The creationist churches are not filled with college graduates. The problem is that students get turned off in high school and never go on. And in the process of being turned off, they fail to learn any logic either.
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WBraun
climber
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Why is there no intelligent designer?
Everything else in nature is designed by intelligence.
Even the just plain ole sun has incredible intelligence behind the fact that it's seasons and timing attributed to it are always perfect.
Without the sun period there would be absolutely no intelligence period.
Never seen any material elements creating nuts and bolts and parts and magically forming an automobile all by themselves.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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actually, werner, if you get rid of all that mumbo-jumbo intelligent design shi t then that is just what happened, in the big picture, no? The automobile was assembled by "nature" as we are nature, as is everything else...
...how did that happen? amazing!
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WBraun
climber
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It did not just "happen", and that's terrible logic, Ed.
You're much better than that.
You're saying that you have no intelligence.
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roadman
climber
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Why is there no intelligent designer?
ummmmm. dude. you have no clue.
DNA,TRNA,MRNA,Virus,etc. try and wrap your intelligent around that.
oh yeah u have no clue...not to intell yer self?
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WBraun
climber
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You've said that before and now again you're saying nothing at all.
Thus it takes intelligence to even understand DNA,TRNA,MRNA,Virus, etc.
You're stuck in some crazy religion idea ......
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oh no !
Here we go again!
Maybe this is hell.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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if intelligence is defined as something un-natural, then you're right Werner, I'm not intelligent... I'm just dumb matter...
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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"When I admire the wonder of a sunset or the beauty of the moon, my soul expands in worship of the Creator." Mahatma Gandhi
"When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers,
The moon and the stars, which You have ordained..." Psalm 8:3
@1982, The Griffith Observatory invited the public to view this planet that was outside our solar system(I don't recall the specifics). There was a line about a block long when we arrived. The wait was over an hour, and each person could watch for only sixty seconds. It was absolutely incredible. I wanted to stand in line again, but my friends were not so inclined. It was a once in a life time opportunity. I could have "observed" all night!
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WBraun
climber
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That's true either Ed. You are an intelligent person.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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The Law of the Lord Is Perfect
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David.
Psalm19, The heavens declare the glory of God,
and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.
2 Day to day pours out speech,
and night to night reveals knowledge.
3 There is no speech, nor are there words,
whose voice is not heard.
4 Their voice goes out through all the earth,
and their words to the end of the world.
In them he has set a tent for the sun,
5 which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber,
and, like a strong man, runs its course with joy.
6 Its rising is from the end of the heavens,
and its circuit to the end of them,
and there is nothing hidden from its heat.
7 The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul;
the testimony of the Lord is sure,
making wise the simple;
8 the precepts of the Lord are right,
rejoicing the heart;
the commandment of the Lord is pure,
enlightening the eyes;
9 the fear of the Lord is clean,
enduring forever;
the rules of the Lord are true,
and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold,
even much fine gold;
sweeter also than honey
and drippings of the honeycomb.
11 Moreover, by them is your servant warned;
in keeping them there is great reward.
12 Who can discern his errors?
Declare me innocent from hidden faults.
13 Keep back your servant also from presumptuous sins;
let them not have dominion over me!
Then I shall be blameless,
and innocent of great transgression.
14 Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
be acceptable in your sight,
O Lord, my rock and my redeemer.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan -- "Oh no !
Here we go again!
Maybe this is hell."
Hahaha LOL
Don'tcha love us .....
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Werner, if you understand that our dna has a lot of the characteristics of computer software, one can begin to see how intelligence can arise from mutation and natural selection.
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WBraun
climber
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monolith, Yes that's exactly true.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"has a lot of the characteristics of computer software"
Like a Virus!
Edit; Top down, from God!
Bump; We all have a mother!!!
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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and we all have a father, and most all cultures have explanations of creation.... why only yours? There is wisdom in many cultures.
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Prezwoodz
Big Wall climber
Anchorage
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This thread is all over the place...still though I am curious. Did anyone learn anything here?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"Denial? Ignorance? Jesus?"
One God made us all! And his Son is Jesus!
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WBraun
climber
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Prezwoodz
Yes, we learn about ourselves, and others, how our human nature responds, interacts and reacts in relation to this subject matter.
We learn subtle things from everything .....
It's beautiful.
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MH2
climber
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However, not every great scientific discovery, especially theoretical discovery, has been made with logic. Many came by intuition first and were shored up with logic and experiment later.
Quite so. The ground has to be prepared, as it were, but the one or two really smart people I've met had the big idea first and then went about finding out why they were right.
My guess is that your brain can do a lot of heavy thinking without you being aware of it, if you give it the chance. For someone like me to get a big idea though, would be like a mouse trying to give birth to an elephant. There is always some kind of proportion between the portal and the production.
In my terribly modest experience with science, what we call logic mostly happens at the end of a cycle of research when it is time to publish.
Logic can help you test the truth value of statements about related facts but it can't take you far into the unknown.
That is a circuitous way to get around to asking Jan a question.
Jan,
Do you know how children pick up language? Not the internal mechanics, but what do people see when they observe the process? That is, when toddlers start to speak, what kind of errors are there and are those errors slowly and gradually corrected (as though by stepwise logic), or does the child improve his/her language in large jumps (as though by intuition)?
I realize it's a big and possibly messy topic but seems to me one of the more accessible windows into how (part of) the mind works.
As far as I remember our 2 kids went straight from babbling to asking to borrow the car, but memory is fallible.
Although it shouldn't be too hard to keep a record of almost everything a baby hears and says during a significant part of learning to speak, I don't know if it's been done. It could be a good demonstration of how unlike a stereotypical machine the brain is.
I do have a fairly complete record of the scrawled/written output of our firstborn. Early on is a stage of wobbly curves. Then numbers appear, at first only 0,1,2,3, but reasonably neat and unmistakable. Numbers appeared everywhere, in fact, up as high on the wall as a little one can reach. But the big surprise was to look down at the sketchpad one day and see, "I want some eggs." There might have been a few letters produced before that. I'd have to go back and check.
The point is, for my money, what happens over and over, all around the world every day, is profoundly strange and deeply fascinating. It isn't the adults that are interesting, though.
I don't get too excited about it, though, because if it was easy, or even just pretty damn hard, computer scientists would be farther ahead in speech production and recognition.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Hi Andy: Jan will no doubt get around to answering your question about the process of learning speech, but in the meantime here is some anecdotal material.
A friend of yours and mine who raised kids around the same time as you and I, was all excited when his daughter constructed her first sentence. It was: "Pooh bum out, SPLASH!" I'm not sure what that tells us about the way children learn language, but...
And then there are my number two son's first written words. He was in kindergarten at the time, and while he was precocious in his reading ability, he'd never actually written anything. I had angered him -- can't remember how, but he was definitely pissed -- and he retreated to his room. A few minutes later he came out, tugged my sleeve, and silently led me back to his room. With the pencil he was holding he pointed to the wall, on which he had written... "F*#K DAVE"
Damn near pissed myself laughing.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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wack-And-dangle!
Thanks for those links. I watched both of them, and a couple of the others associated with them. I wonder what the "Black Lodge Singers" were saying in there songs? Sounded pretty powerful!
When I turned 8yrs old my father bought me a bow and some hunting arrows(broad-heads). From that moment on I read every book I could get my hands on regarding the different Indian Tribes of N.A.
"He has put eternity in their hearts..." Ecclesiastes 3:11
Because we are made in the image of God, we have an inborn inquisitiveness about eternal realities. And obviously they had a deap seated and compulsive drive to transcend thier mortality by knowing the meaning and destiny of the world.
You ask "What about..." Well it is evident that the Native Americans were aware of God by the evidence all around them(the universe) just as it says "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen..." Romans 1:20.
They were judged(before the "Good News" of salvation through Jesus Christ)by whether or not they obeyed their conscious that God gave them. When they heard the truth spoke to them in regards to the Gospel, and God coming to earth and dying for them, they were then judged just like you, me and Gobee and everyone else that has heard the Truth and excepted or rejected it.
It was the American government that ripped off the Native Americans, not followers of Jesus Christ, Kevin!! Why do you blame every war etc. on Jesus Christ? Jesus never instigated any war, except the war against the hater of your soul, Satan!! Why do you have such a bitter hatred for the teachings of Jesus KW?
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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"This thread is all over the place...still though I am curious. Did anyone learn anything here?"
Yes:
* There are many more atheists and agnostics on the taco than I might have thought.
* People hear Jesus in their car telling them what to do.
* The people who hear Jesus in their car telling them what to do think that people that hear voices in their head are crazy, other than them.
* No one will ever be converted. People believe in what their parents teach them.
* The taco is more interesting than Facebook.
Damn, I'm glad my parents never taught me anything more than to learn things for myself and to make my own decisions. Whatever I believe now, at least it's my belief and not one I inherited.
Dave
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WBraun
climber
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I'm out here in center field.
Where the fuk is the batter?????
Hey batter, batter, batter
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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I learned that triple 7 is a sincere, thoughtful sort, with a sense of humor, I don't have to agree with with him to appreciate him.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I actually have to go to work today, but the act of debating on this thread (and others like it) has greatly evolved my thinking on several topics, including a better understanding of the evolution theory, its role in biology, and the nature of the "supernatural" and how it can be brought into a consistent picture of a physical reality.
More later...
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Isn't the difference between intuition and logic mostly just our consciousness of the information that we're processing? In both cases we have the information, just with intuition we're not conscious that we have it? Yes Jan, I think on an individual level, intuition is always going to have more information to work with than logic does. I hope so anyway!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Warbler- "ever read the story".
Yes, in Jr. High Itro. to World History, and continued college.
And, as I recall, Pizarro was acting in regards to the Spanish Inquisition. Catholicism was chosen to unify Spain. They drove out the Protestants who believed in justification by faith through grace and not works, the priesthood of all believers, and the Bible as the ultimate authority in matters of faith.
This doctrine of course is in direct opposition to the papal monarchy of Catholicism. And the Protestants were labeled 'Christian heretics'(I guess myself and Gobee would have been burned at the stake). Tens of thousands were tortured and executed. I do not believe the Catholic church represents what Jesus Christ preached. As a matter of fact, they attempted to extinguish Christs teachings, and withhold the Word of God(Bible)from the common man.
Catholicism, or at least the Inquisition was as much political as it was orthodoxy(Papal). And what happened to the Incas and their leader Atahualpa was the result of greed and human ambition, not Gods.
And likewise with Michenor's classic novel "Hawaii". Primarily Catholic missionaries. I was brought up Catholic, and came to the realisation/conclusion during my early teens, that the Catholic Church and their belief are in many ways in direct contrast to what Christ taught.
But since we are on the subject, did you consider Father Damian and his(and others that followed him)selfless acts in serving the lepers who were interned on Molokai. And he wasn't the first to do so, their were many others ministers of the Christian faith who went to the island before him.
Warbler- "Jesus has nothing to do with my contempt for Christianity's history".
Well, I would have to agree with you in the scope of the discussion thus far. Many atrocities, such as the Crusades and the Inquisitions were carried out by humans whose ambitions were political and self serving. A far cry from what Christ preached.
"How many times have we heard...America founded on Christian ideals."
They are speaking of the founding fathers(Washington, Jefferson, Franklin etc.} and the Pilgrims. Yes they were founded by people of Christian faith. But those ideals have been slowly eroding/crumbling, and often over looked.
"excepted the Truth'...hmmmm..."
Well...hmmmm...obviously you lump anyone associated with Christ's teachings suspect. That includes Jesus Christ Himself, which we believe is the Truth. "I am the way, the Truth, and the Life...".
I was simply saying that we excepted His Word as being true. "In the beginning was the Word...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us...".
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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777 wrote
" I do not believe the Catholic church represents what Jesus Christ preached. As a matter of fact, they attempted to extinguish Christs teachings, and withhold the Word of God(Bible)from the common man."
Yet that Church was virtually the only mass Christianity for way over 1000 years. Perhaps that shows we can't trust Churches to represent God fairly. The mystery demands a different approach.
Squid wrote
"* The people who hear Jesus in their car telling them what to do think that people that hear voices in their head are crazy, other than them."
Too funny. I'm imagining a child protective services taking Issac away from Abraham and throwing him in jail after that "almost sacrificed the kid after God told me to" incident.
God might be talking but we have issues with listening. I tell me girlfriend she looks great and she asks if I just told her she's fat.
Peace
Karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Warbler- "Silence from dugout".
I typed that post last night before midnight and you responded this morning after seven AM. I just turned on my lap-top less than an hour ago...I have work to do. I will get back to you later this afternoon.
Regardless, Thanks for responding.
Peace, Trip~
EDIT: Kevin I respect you greatly, and have followed most of your posts. I was just wondering what you were thinking. And I do understand much of your reasons(and agree with you)for your disdain for religion and its corruption of Christs teachings. So does Jesus, read about His disdain for five of the seven Churches that go by His name in Revelation chapters 2-3.
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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I tell me girlfriend she looks great and she asks if I just told her she's fat.
That is funny Karl! Seems like the gist of the thread at this point is trying to understand if that's a talking problem or a listening problem - we believe we hear more than just the words, sometimes to our advantage, sometimes to our disadvantage.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Some questions for all the believers in SuperTopia. Let's say that I'm a believer - that is, that I believe in a presence/force/person whom humans ought to worship/obey/consider. Or at least that I've convinced myself to so believe, or wish to claim that I believe, for social, economic or other reasons. If so:
1. Do I have to belong to any recognized or organized religion, or is the simple fact of my belief enough?
2. If I must belong to a religion, which one? Which of the many different brands of Christianism, Islamism, Judaism, Buddhism, Sihkism, Taoism, Hinduism, and cow-worshippingism? Not to mention the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
3. How will I know which is the best/right/true religion?
4. What should I believe (or not) about all the other ones?
5. Can we judge religions by the actions of their adherents, and if so, do the followers of any religion live up to its supposed beliefs and practices?
6. Is religion a satanic plot?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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"is religion a satanic plot?"
kinda looks like it, course ya gotta believe in Satan...
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Hi Warbler,
I will try to address your question regarding the way the historical church has acted through the centuries.
I am an American citizen. I accept my citizenship... However, I do NOT accept or embrace all the ways the American government and American military have acted through American history, acting, as it is claimed, on behalf of Americans. However, these things are in the past. My duty as a current American citizen is to be the best, most informed citizen I can be, and to require an accounting from our government and military for some of their (current) actions.
I accept Jesus Christ as my personal Savior. This does not mean I accept or embrace things the historical church did throughout history. We are all human, and humans make some horrible mistakes.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Gonna blow the margin buffers here.... which seems somehow appropriate.
The new Hubble deep field. Just look at all those galaxies.
And yet we're supposed to be God's precious one-and-onlys?
How naive.
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jstan
climber
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This is an excellent example of our poor use of language.
We debate about "intelligence" and each participant has their own definition of what the word
means.
We debate about "intuition" and the same applies.
We are not doing our homework.
One of the definitions of intuition: "quick and ready insight."
The truth is there really is nothing "quick and ready" about intuition.
Einstein was very interested in geometry and spaces, as they exist in the technical sense.
Transformations and the like. DeSitter. Hilbert. That background influenced the questions he
asked when confronted with a question about the physical space in which he was living. He asked
the question he did because because he was comfortable with those concepts.
Intuition, guided by our past experience and innate talents, is that process which causes a
person to ASK THE QUESTIONS THEY DO. After the question is asked then logical processes are
generally used to identify which answers are the most probably correct.
Now there is an aspect of Einstein's intuition that bears mention. He was naturally inclined to be
a philosopher. What do I mean? If he had two possible answers he would choose to do the
hardest logical work on the answer which, to him, seemed the simplest and most beautiful. If you
explain something by assuming all kinds of things ad hoc, he would probably not spend much
logical effort on that hypothesis. He used his intuition to avoid wasting time trying to prove
something he thought highly unlikely.
At an APS meeting eons ago I listened to a paper that asked if all the human senses are at the
quantum limit. For instance after you have slaughtered a cow and place a sensitive microphone
next to the animal's ear you can hear the cilia vibrating in the ear. The ear detects sound
interferometrically by listening to the beat frequencies. This mode of detection is orders of
magnitude more sensitive than are more simple modes of detection. As I remember, way back
then, he was leery of claiming our eyes can detect single photons. But if you watch the literature
you still see that question being asked. Why do I bring this up?
Much in this world seems improbable. That each of us is quantum limited? Incredible! Until you
reflect that this world is much much older than you or even myself. What we see is the result
obtained after billions of years of failed experiments. We are looking at only the successful
experiments. Or the ones that have yet to fail.
My own intuition as I look out at our planet causes me to ask a question.
Are we now to become one of the failures?
Bronwyn:
You state an entirely valid position.
But what must we conclude if America were to carry out an atrocious act
and not one american protested?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Are we now to become one of the failures?
Have to ask you the same question you asked of others regarding the use of language.
What do you mean by "failure"? Were our evolutionary predecessors all failures?
If we evolve into whatever comes next does that mean we (humans) are a failure?
I suppose if we blow ourselves out of existence then "failure" would be a reasonable
term to brand us with. But I don't consider Homo Whateveris to be a failure because
we're here now and he isn't. Nor will I consider h. sapiens a failure just because
we are eventually succeeded by h. somethingelse
Just steps along the path.
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jstan
climber
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A failed specie is a specie none of whose members still lives.
I am not practiced in this but a specie is always changing and I take two individuals who are unable
to mate as being of different species.
Survival requires constant adaptation.
It really seems homo sapiens, right now, is not keeping up.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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We do seem to suffer from evolutionary imbalance.
We've evolved power to destroy ourselves faster than the wisdom to use that power wisely
Time will tell
Peace
Karl
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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I am not practiced in this but a specie is always changing and I take two individuals who are unable to mate as being of different species
Donkeys and horses can mate and are considered different species. it is a bit silly to think of the inability to mate as defining a species. There are animals that can mate with other almost identical animals and they in turn can mate with yet others, yet they cannot mate with the first (okay, there are a few more in the middle but the point is valid). A little research and understanding of evolution theory and you might see that we are better suited to our environment than homo-before-us but that might only be because the environment changed and he changed into us. If he changed into us, that shows him, homo-way-back, as being very successful, even if he is of a different "species." After all, he did adapt to his environment very well. It just had the side effect of losing some mating capability with a long dead homo-not-here-any-more.
That's at least one way of looking at it.
Dave
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Cintune,
I don't recall any Christian posting on here saying that our humble little planet is God's "one and only", but maybe I missed something.
I fully believe that He created many, many other worlds, with many, many forms of life. There is nothing in the Bible, either, that says that ours is the only inhabited planet.
Space is infinite. God is infinite. Actually, I can't wait to see more of what is out there!
AWESOME picture by the way...gotta love the Hubble!
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jstan
climber
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Like I said I am not practiced. But let me ask. Can the two mules mate, successfully?
As I understand it, they cannot.
All specie have to evolve to keep up with the environment, if it is changing. If they cannot, they
do not survive.
What I see is the the population of homo sapiens has increased to such a degree that the
enviroment is being driven by us. The rates of change this will impose upon us is quite outside
historical experience.
Here off CA's coast, as on George's Banks, fishing as we used to know it is nearly dead. Even the
urchin harvests are showing depletion. The kelp will be next. Today's paper has the fishermen
complaining that reducing their catch further is only part of the answer. We need to reduce
plastic waste drifting on the ocean INSTEAD of reducing catches.
This is not adaptation.
This is more tragedy of the commons.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Bronwyn, I suppose it depends on how strictly you want to interpret Genesis.
This is what it describes:
No mention of galalxies, for starters. Just stars - which were all the
book's human authors could see. Actually no mention of other planets,
either, just the earth smack-dab in the middle of it all. Hence the
implied precious one-and-only status at the heart of creationism.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"excepted the truth"... hmmm...
I'm so glad to believe in the God of the bible, who is for us, forgives and cares for us. I put my trust in Him 110%, I don't deserve to, but He is God and I want Him to be. How cool is that, that he wants to!!!
I can't live without Him, and don't want to!
God doesn't want words put in His mouth He didn't say;
Revelation 22:18-19, I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
God will judge all the wrongs done in His name, (even Moses)!
The Waters of Meribah
Numbers 20:2-13, Now there was no water for the congregation. And they assembled themselves together against Moses and against Aaron. And the people quarreled with Moses and said, “Would that we had perished when our brothers perished before the Lord! Why have you brought the assembly of the Lord into this wilderness, that we should die here, both we and our cattle? And why have you made us come up out of Egypt to bring us to this evil place? It is no place for grain or figs or vines or pomegranates, and there is no water to drink.” Then Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly to the entrance of the tent of meeting and fell on their faces. And the glory of the Lord appeared to them and the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Take the staff, and assemble the congregation, you and Aaron your brother, and tell the rock before their eyes to yield its water. So you shall bring water out of the rock for them and give drink to the congregation and their cattle.” And Moses took the staff from before the Lord, as he commanded him.
Moses Strikes the Rock
Then Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly together before the rock, and he said to them, “Hear now, you rebels: shall we bring water for you out of this rock?” And Moses lifted up his hand and struck the rock with his staff twice, and water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their livestock. And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not believe in Me, to uphold Me as Holy in the eyes of the people of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land that I have given them.” These are the waters of Meribah, where the people of Israel quarreled with the Lord, and through them He showed Himself Holy.
Moses was a WAY WAY WAY WAY,, better man then I am!!!
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Jstan,
But what must we conclude if America were to carry out an atrocious act
and not one american protested?
If I read this question correctly, I think you are asking if Christians have ever protested some of the atrocities carried out by the church.
Well, that is why the Crusades ultimately ended...people were rioting and protesting against them. Many missionaries, such as Hudson Taylor, protested against the method of trying to make other cultures adopt Western dress and customs. He spoke out against the way native people had been treated, and his voice ultimately prevailed. He scandalized 19th-century England with his views.
I am sure there are many more historical instances, but not having been raised around this kind of information, I defer to someone who many have more citations to offer.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Moses was a genocidal maniac, Gobee.
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WBraun
climber
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Cintune -- "No mention of galaxies,"
Heavens ..... = galaxies
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Cintune,
There are references in the Old Testament to other planets, but I don't think it was a critical topic...the intention of the Bible was to reveal what God was doing on Earth.
PS: if I recall correctly, there is only one recorded instance of Moses killing anyone, the Egyptian who had learned that Moses was a Jew.
Nobody ever said the people of the Old Testament were perfect...far from it.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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So the bible was kind of written on a "need to know" basis? First order of business: slaughter the Canaanites; we'll get to the rest later...
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jstan
climber
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Bronwyn:
Thank you, you interpreted my question correctly. Again your points are valid as regard past courageous action by followers.
The thing that keeps coming out here and in outside life is the presumption that if I believe, god will consider me perfect. Nothing more is required of me. The instances you cite did not show this characteristic.
It does not make any difference whether one believes or one does not believe.
Courage and discernment will be required of all.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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cintune- "first order of business, slaughter the Canaanites...".
The Canaanites would have slaughtered the Israelites! They greatly outnumbered the Israelites. And God forbade intermarriage because they(Canaanites) believed in multiple gods(polytheism)child sacrifice and various other blatant offences that would corrupt the Israelites relationship with the Creator.
If you are going to question the relationship of the Hebrews(Israelites)and there God, you have to look at the whole picture and hypothetically evaluate it from the standpoint of Jehovah/Yahweh/Jesus being the one true God.
It is about God choosing a people, the Israelites, as the ones He revealed Himself to.
The simple fact of the matter is today He is offering you a personal relationship with Him, outside of religion! As I stated before, and Gobee, Bronwyn and others have explained, man is at fault for the atrocities etc. and Religion is a man made institution. A set of rules and practices that if followed supposedly bring you closer to God.
Some one asked what is the true religion. Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life."
Christ states that you must have a personal relationship with Him, plan and simple. My relationship began at eight years old and will continue throughout eternity.
It is a simple invitation. He made it simple so that even children could understand, and so man could not take credit by works/good deeds. He desires/expects for us to accomplish these works and good deeds etc. once we have a relationship with Him, not before. He promises to direct and empower us to do these acts.
I am out and about(in borders right now). Noticed that there are alot of great questions and answers/discussion going on. I'll have to catch up later.
Later...da' Trip~
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Doc-"When you talk to Jesus...".
Like I explained to you several times before, "talking to Jesus" is simply praying. Jesus gave us an example of how to pray in the "Lords Prayer". "Our Father who art in Heaven...".
It is a matter of faith, and a lifetime of answered prayer. I don't need to prove anything to you or anyone else. I doubt if I could. You are the one missing out on the benefit of such a relationship. Ask Him yourself, only He can answer your questions F.
Satan does not answer prayer requests to God, he usually tries to derail any positive outcome in a believers life.
I know all of this sounds bizarre/crazy etc.... until you seek Him yourself. "Seek and you shall find."
I am going to get some food in my stomach, just got back from the MD's office(had to fast all day). She was concerned about my elevated blood sugar. I hope I don't have diabetes.
Good to see you are back Dr.F.
Peace!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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The Canaanites would have slaughtered the Israelites! They greatly outnumbered the Israelites. And God forbade intermarriage because they(Canaanites) believed in multiple gods(polytheism)child sacrifice and various other blatant offences that would corrupt the Israelites relationship with the Creator.
Shoulda coulda woulda, huh? Um, sure. Ethnic cleansers always cite "corruption" as an excuse for mass murder.
If you are going to question the relationship of the Hebrews(Israelites)and there God, you have to look at the whole picture and hypothetically evaluate it from the standpoint of Jehovah/Yahweh/Jesus being the one true God.
Uh-huh. And if you're going to question, say, the relationship of the Nazis and the Jews in 1939, do you have to look at the whole picture and hypothetically evaluate it from the standpoint of the Aryan race being the natural born masters of the world too?
It is about God choosing a people, the Israelites, as the ones He revealed Himself to.
No, it's about an oppressed people bootstrapping themselves into a position of authority by convincing their followers that it was okay to commit atrocities in the name of an imaginary supernatural being.
The simple fact of the matter is today He is offering you a personal relationship with Him, outside of religion! As I stated before, and Gobee, Bronwyn and others have explained, man is at fault for the atrocities etc. and Religion is a man made institution. A set of rules and practices that if followed supposedly bring you closer to God.
Man is at fault for atrocities committed in the name of god? Why doesn't he do something about that? He had no problem smiting left and right in the bad old days whenever his "chosen" ones got out of line. Since then he's just been sitting back and shrugging it all off with the well-worn "free will" slacker excuse?
Some one asked what is the true religion. Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life."
Yeah, he was really, really into himself, that much we know.
Christ states that you must have a personal relationship with Him, plan and simple. My relationship began at eight years old and will continue throughout eternity.
That's cool for you. Seriously. Krsna is cool for Werner. And even Allah is cool for, say, the Sufis. All depends on what you do with your religion, or more like what you don't do with it.
It is a simple invitation. He made it simple so that even children could understand, and so man could not take credit by works/good deeds. He desires/expects for us to accomplish these works and good deeds etc. once we have a relationship with Him, not before. He promises to direct and empower us to do these acts.
That's alright. Being good for goodness's sake is good enough for me. Eternity can take care of itself.
I am out and about(in borders right now). Noticed that there are alot of great questions and answers/discussion going on. I'll have to catch up later.
Skipped ahead to the next post, hope the diagnosis turns out okay, dude. My dad's been struggling with diabetes for a few years now... there's an example of some unintelligent design for ya.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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cintune- "Ethnic cleansers...".
If that is how you are going to look at it(and if I were looking at it in that context) I would agree. But this is a question about weather or not Jesus Christ is God.
THAT Is the question. You can look at the Bible from any humanitarian/secular viewpoint you wish until the day you die and find fault on that basis/viewpoint. If I was reading it as a historical/man made outcome of one tribe/religion verses another I would probably agree.
If you are going to justify/condemn the stories of the Bible and compare them and God/Jesus to Hitler, then in go ahead. I can fully understand if you believe it is a man made religion. And not a relationship to the Creator that Moses and I have(along with other believers). Then it is simply a matter of people destroying people.
Believe what you want cintune, it is your eternity. But if I was you, I would personally ask Jesus Christ yourself. He alone can penetrate a heart of stone if you allow Him.
EDIT: Not suggesting you have a heart of stone, on the contrary(you wouldn't be participating here and asking questions if you did)I was just saying He could penetrate any heart, even the hardest heart.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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cintune- "why doesn't he do something about that?"
To begin with, man would take the credit for it. So why should He? You seem to be missing the whole point of the God of the Bible! This is a battle for souls. His creatures created in His image.
He came to earth and He was crucified by us. He will intervene, at the battle of Armageddon. If He doesn't, mankind will destroy itself!! Do you find this an impossible scenario(a nuclear war)?
You blame everything bad in the world on God, and give the credit for everything good to man!!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 10, 2009 - 12:48am PT
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"If the strongest advocates of a particular belief, i.e. the church and its leaders, consistently engage in behavior ranging from dishonest and hypocritical to atrocious and perverted over centuries, shouldn't the foundations of that belief system be questioned?"
Though all these be found false, God is still true! There's not one thing that Jesus said that's not totally righteous and perfect, not one!
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.1) By John MacArthur
Renewing Your Mind - Dr. R.C. Sproul
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Renewing_Your_Mind/archives.asp
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 10, 2009 - 01:08am PT
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"but the whole deal seems downright wacko."
No one could make up what Jesus said unless He did say it.
Other wise I agree with your statement!
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 10, 2009 - 01:12am PT
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You'll just have to take that path to test it.
We can describe all the qualities of water and still if one has never come in direct contact with water there will be no real experience/taste.
The test has to be bonafide.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 10, 2009 - 01:18am PT
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In answer to an evolutionary question about language and the brain. I am not familiar with language development in children as my interest has always been in the cross cultural aspects of language. What I can tell you is this:
-human beings are born with a genetically programmed grammar already in our brains. This has been proven from studies of how pijin languages become creoles and the personal languages sometimes invented by identical twins. In all cases, the grammar has similar rules, even if the base language is different. French, English, and Spanish based creoles are the best studied so far however.
-this innate grammar is also present to some degree in the great apes as well, since they can all be taught sign language and are bilingual in both signs and heard English (trainer speaks in English and ape responds with the appropriate sign.
-the area for hand movement and language is close in the brain and they appear related. People remember words better if they exercise hand movements (any kind) while memorizing word lists. Anthropologists speculate that hand signals came first, then sounds, then words with grammar were added later. Very young children take to sign language well before they can form words.
-the languages that we speak are superimposed on our innate grammar, usually by our mothers, hence "mother tongue". We also learn our accents from our mothers while still in the womb. A recent study found that German newborns cry with a falling tone and French with a rising tone similar to the cadence of their respective mother's language.
-Children can learn several languages before age five, but generally need to learn only one first, before proceeding to the others. How they think about language is illustrated in a funny story from Swedish parents living in Germany. They spoke Swedish to the child at home, and the child spoke perfect German at kindergarten. When the family vacationed in Sweden, the child spoke Swedish to all the adults and tried to speak only German to the Swedish children.
-True bilingualism happens only if the language is learned before the age of five.
-if a child does not learn to speak by age five, they can not because the neural connections for language in the brain are rigid by then.
-Speaking is done from the left hemisphere, and singing and swearing from the right hemisphere. Some people with strokes can not even say their name but can still swear because of this phenomenon because swearing and strong emotions are connected.
-For the same reason people in comas have been known to sing church music at their own last rites when they could not speak to the priest.
I do not know, but I suspect that children learn language either bit by bit, or as whole sentences depending on whether they are primarily left or right brain in their orientation. Certainly that's why some children learn to read better with the phonics bit by bit left brain method and others by the more visual look and see sentence fragments method.
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 10, 2009 - 01:30am PT
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Hi Warbler,
I will try to address your question regarding the way the historical church has acted through the centuries.
I am an American citizen. I accept my citizenship... However, I do NOT accept or embrace all the ways the American government and American military have acted through American history, acting, as it is claimed, on behalf of Americans. However, these things are in the past. My duty as a current American citizen is to be the best, most informed citizen I can be, and to require an accounting from our government and military for some of their (current) actions.
Please don't assume that every Christian voted for Bush!!!
We know that the US is founded on some fine ideals...we also know that we often do not live up to those ideals, but that does not mean that those ideals are not sound, simply because we often fail them.
Forgiveness is not a license to sin, nor is it a "get out of jail free" card. We are still accountable for our actions. I can understand how, when you look at the history of the church, it would be easy to be disillusioned. For the first 800 years or so of Christianity, it was a capital offense in the Roman empire to be a Christian (hence all those feedings to the lions.) Then the Emperor Constantine became a Christian, or at least decided it might be more politically beneficial to do so.(I think in 832 or thereabouts.) Suddenly Christianity became the state religion; it became political, not faith-based, and that is when things really started to get screwed up. IMHO.
I believe in total separation of church and state, period. I think it is better for ALL Americans. HIstorically, combining the two has been disastrous.
I would love to try and address the question of forgiveness versus "license to sin" but I think my brain is fried at this hour. Perhaps someone could take up the mantle, or until tomorrow...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 10, 2009 - 01:54am PT
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A little Church history.
-Constantine granted religious tolerence to Christians in 313 A.D.
-In 316 A.D. Constantine waged war against Christians of the Donatist interpretation.
The primary disagreement between Donatists and the rest of the early Christian Church was that the Donatists refused to accept the sacraments and spiritual authority of the priests and bishops who had fallen away from the faith during the Diocletian persecution of 303-305.
Constantine's stand was the more liberal position, though his war on the Donatists was hardly in keeping with the pacifist tradition of the church to that point. It was in fact the first Christian Holy War, supported by all the non Donatists bishops of the church.
-In 325 A.D. Constantine organized the Council of Nicaea to codify Christian doctrine.
This resulted in the Nicaean Creed, also known as the Apostle's Creed, used by Christians to this day.
-In 337 A.D., realizing that he was near death, Constantine was baptized finally.
This was in keeping with a common tradition of the day. Since it was believed that baptism forgave all sins up to that point, people often postponed it as long as possible.
By 832 A.D., the date you gave, the Church had already persecuted and killed many groups of early Christians whose teachings it deemed heretical.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 10, 2009 - 03:06am PT
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Wow, interesting stuff on Language in the previous page.
Having studied Sanskrit and learned Hindi pretty extensively has made me think about language a lot. At a certain level of our minds, we think in our language. The result of this means that our facility with language is reflected in the range, lucidity, and nuance of our thoughts. (on some level, there's a part of us beyond the inner dialog that knows things but can't express them necessarily.
When I'd hang out in India for a long time, I'd start to think in Hindi sometimes. I was not completely fluent so it was like being drugged almost. My ability to translate my concepts into expressions was hobbled.
There's no science in what I claim above, just my personal experience. Word order in Hindi is different so it wouldn't be uncommon to say the equivalent of "I Jan with supertopo on language discussed." Even the grammar of our language influences the motion of our thoughts.
Peace
Karl
Thought on God. I seems that God seems to evolve as humanity comes out of it's own darkness. The Gods of 3000+ years ago were often warlike. Humans were too, and God(s) worldwide demanded animal blood sacrifice. That mostly changed, in both East and West, perhaps a thousand years later.
It seems God is interpreted via the lens of human culture at the time. Perhaps we're not able to listen outside the box of our vision of life. God, as Jesus spoke of God, was no longer in the business of slaughtering people to conquer their lands.
Peace
Karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 10, 2009 - 03:24am PT
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The Warbler- "The strongest advocates....over the centuries."
They were strongest in what aspect? Not serving Christ and denying self. I truly doubt if any of the Popes(or many Catholic priests) will be found in Heaven! Like I pointed out, the Catholic church burnt believers at the steak. They kept the Bible away from the people for over 1,000 years! They did not practice what the foundation of Christianity teaches "To love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength.' 'And to love your neighbor as yourself." They created a religion with all sorts of false teachings, and kept the very core of it(the Bible)away from the masses.
I never agreed with Bush in regards to going to war with Iraq. Neither did Pat Robertson and various other 'leaders' in the church. Familiarity with the near east in regards to Bible history would tell anyone it was a bad idea.
Just like Gobee was saying, man and the believing church can make mistakes/be swayed towards bad decisions. The church on a whole is in a very 'worldly' materialistic condition at this time. Many shortcomings over the last 30-40 yrs or so. The "prosperity gospel" is one of the false doctrines that has manipulated and has been falsely preached for example. And in my opinion, becoming to entwined with politics and isolating(probably the wrong word) homosexuals.
"An easy way out". No one who truly excepts Christ can then simply go on sinning and not face the wrath of God. It is called "chastisement". He will deal with you. He and only He knows your heart. I have been dealt with a number of times over the years. "You shall fear only the Lord your God...". This is something that every Christian will experience to one degree or another, depending on the obedience of the believer(it is between them and God)He will deal with sin in a believers life. Ask any Christian.
"as a license to sin". As it is taught in I believe "Corinthians", some of the believers there were on there sick beds and some had died in regards to there insistence on practicing such things(sex ouside of marriage, some were doing so with their "fathers wives" I believe it says). God deals with it. This is a misconception of non-Christians. Just watch what happens to them. Jimmy Swaggart, Ted Haggard more recently, and several other high profile pastors are examples of this. God will not let you get away with it. He is slow to anger, but if Christians fail to repent and turn, He will deal with them. We have all experienced it.
And it wasn't easy for Christ, He paid the ultimate price for our sins over the years. He gets all the glory. For man to work for there salvation would be to degrade the gift/price He paid for us.
It is not an easy life. It is constant warfare with the flesh(lust etc.), the world(materialism etc.)and the devil/spiritual warfare, dark thoughts/ideas etc. These are concepts that can only be understood from a believers standpoint(I hesitate to even mention them here in this venue). There is a spiritual realm. That is why it is so difficult to define or relate to this "relationship" I keep bringing up.
Great questions/concerns/points made Kevin. I just did a so-so job of attempting to answer a few of them. I would suggest everyone to read The Gospel of John, to see what Jesus said about these things. And keep an open mind to the possibility that if there is a God, and nothing is impossible with Him, that He could get His message to all mankind. In the form of an incredible love letter known as the Bible. "For God so loved the world..." John 3:16.
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MH2
climber
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Dec 10, 2009 - 04:03am PT
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Thanks Jan.
Of course, gradual learning and sudden leaps in ability aren't mutually exclusive, even within an individual. It would be interesting if people fell broadly into 2 different classes, though, as you seemed to be saying in regard to left/right brain.
Speaking of innate grammer, how is Noam Chomsky's earlier career regarded these days? My thesis advisor, no slouch himself, referred to his work as deep.
come to think of it
The report that French and German babies cry with acquired-in-the-womb accents has a peculiar implication. When you learn anything, it seems like there has to be, as a minimum requirement, some kind of way to know what the desired goal is. Then you take a stab at it and you need some kind of way to see if you are close enough for practical purposes or need to improve.
If babies in the womb aren't making crying noises, how is it that simply hearing an accent can modify the motor side of things?
One of the neurophysiologists who came to talk at Chicago said that plasticity was necessary because genes can only hold so much information and a motoneuron doesn't initially "know" the force that will result when it activates its motor unit.
CBC Radio had a long segment on the baby study, with examples of French and German infant accents. It could fall in line with the view that the brain doesn't just compare an output to a goal and correct the error, but somehow builds a model or map with what information it has and can then modify output based on prediction rather than trial and error.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 10, 2009 - 08:41am PT
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"... religion's history with Native Americans?"
Sad most us city dwellers haven't seen a night sky in many a moon. And we don't live off the land so that the earth gives up it's bounty, and take it with reverence.
The Native Indians, that honored the Great Spirit believed in God, and do unto others as you would want done unto you. Thy learned from the animals, the Mouse only saw what was right in front of him, the Eagle in flight could see the big view, but if it ate to much, could not fly. Thy lived in harmony on God's green earth. But there were other Indians that also took what they wanted.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 10, 2009 - 08:57am PT
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tripl7-
I know that you personally don't care for the Catholic church, but don't believe every anti - Catholic sentiment you hear out of a Protestant either. I heard all of them growing up in a Protestant family and community, and when I checked them out, a lot were just fabrications.
While the Catholic Church is certainly guilty for a lot, if you study the history of the Protestant Reformation, so were the Protestants. The Protestants killed Catholics and other Protestants they didn't agree with equally. Just study Mennonite or Hutterite history and what was done to the Anabaptists by both sides, or later Quaker history in England.
Meanwhile, it is quite incorrect to say that the Catholic Church kept the Bible away from the people for 1,000 years. The reality is that before the invention of Gutenburg's printing press in 1440, all Bibles had to be copied by hand and were very scarce. It could take one person a lifetime just to copy a single Bible. The people who did the copying by the way, were Catholic monks.
The other reason the Church did not keep the Bible away from the people is that they couldn't have read it anyway, they were illiterate. Only with the invention of the printing press, was there enough reading material to encourage mass literacy. The Protestant tradition of parsing scripture is a only 200-300 years old.
One of the several reasons Martin Luther emphasized faith only, is that without the ritual of the Church, that was about all people had. If they were Catholic, the priest told them what was in the Bible, if they were early Protestants, the minister told them. Either way, the illiterates were not reading and interpreting it for themselves.
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 10, 2009 - 10:26am PT
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Hi Jan,
Thanks for catching me on the years of Constantine's activities. Like I said, brain was a tad fried.
The Nicene Creed and the Apostle's Creed, are, however, two very different and distinct statements. The Nicene Creed was codified in 325, but the Apostle's Creed is believed to be much older, probably the original statement of faith used by believers to sum up their beliefs when asked. The Apostle's Creed is much shorter and less complex.
Neither of these is "necessary" for salvation...only belief in Jesus is necessary. In a time when most people were illiterate, and information was mostly oral, having a creed to memorize probably made it easier for most people to understand the foundation of the faith, since they could not read the Bible. But knowing the text of either of these is not critical for salvation.
The language thing does fascinate me...I have heard people say that cats and dogs "bark" and "meow" differently in different parts of the world, although when I have been traveling I haven't really noticed. Animals can be bi-lingual, which does make one wonder...
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jstan
climber
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Dec 10, 2009 - 11:53am PT
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Jan's post is too good to let its readership suffer due to running off the page.
---------
In answer to an evolutionary question about language and the brain. I am not familiar with
language development in children as my interest has always been in the cross cultural aspects of
language. What I can tell you is this:
-human beings are born with a genetically programmed grammar already in our brains. This has
been proven from studies of how pijin languages become creoles and the personal languages
sometimes invented by identical twins. In all cases, the grammar has similar rules, even if the
base language is different. French, English, and Spanish based creoles are the best studied so far
however.
-this innate grammar is also present to some degree in the great apes as well, since they can all
be taught sign language and are bilingual in both signs and heard English (trainer speaks in
English and ape responds with the appropriate sign.
-the area for hand movement and language is close in the brain and they appear related. People
remember words better if they exercise hand movements (any kind) while memorizing word lists.
Anthropologists speculate that hand signals came first, then sounds, then words with grammar
were added later. Very young children take to sign language well before they can form words.
-the languages that we speak are superimposed on our innate grammar, usually by our mothers,
hence "mother tongue". We also learn our accents from our mothers while still in the womb. A
recent study found that German newborns cry with a falling tone and French with a rising tone
similar to the cadence of their respective mother's language.
-Children can learn several languages before age five, but generally need to learn only one first,
before proceeding to the others. How they think about language is illustrated in a funny story
from Swedish parents living in Germany. They spoke Swedish to the child at home, and the child
spoke perfect German at kindergarten. When the family vacationed in Sweden, the child spoke
Swedish to all the adults and tried to speak only German to the Swedish children.
-True bilingualism happens only if the language is learned before the age of five.
-if a child does not learn to speak by age five, they can not because the neural connections for
language in the brain are rigid by then.
-Speaking is done from the left hemisphere, and singing and swearing from the right
hemisphere. Some people with strokes can not even say their name but can still swear because of
this phenomenon because swearing and strong emotions are connected.
-For the same reason people in comas have been known to sing church music at their own last
rites when they could not speak to the priest.
I do not know, but I suspect that children learn language either bit by bit, or as whole sentences
depending on whether they are primarily left or right brain in their orientation. Certainly that's
why some children learn to read better with the phonics bit by bit left brain method and others
by the more visual look and see sentence fragments method.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 10, 2009 - 12:33pm PT
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Jan- "If they were Catholic, the Priests told them what was in the Bible..."
The Priest told them the basic Gospel story of the virgin birth, the death and resurrection of Christ. All of which was common knowledge among the people. Actually, the Priest did little teaching. That was, and still is, done by laymen/lay teachers, and nuns to this day.
I went to a Catholic church and on Saturday's attended what they refer to as catechism. This was my choice from the age of 9-13. I already new Christ through a personal invitation and conversion at 8 yrs old, and I new of no other church that recognised Jesus as Savior at that time.
I learned from young high-school girls and nuns. The priest had little interaction among the average congregants, unless you were going to PAY them for a specific mass for a loved one in a so called purgatory etc. Jesus NEVER taught such pathetic lies.
The priests taught us nothing. On Sunday they lead a ritualistic mass(traditions of man/not God) that was concocted by the early church, and was far from worship and teaching as Christ and the New Testament prescribed. To begin it was all in Latin.
They did not use the Bible in there Sunday school or on Saturdays or any other day. They used what is called a catechism. A book loaded with false doctrines such as Purgatory and the priests as intermediaries between man and God, salvation through baptism, etc. etc. etc.
They continue to withhold the Bible, or down play its importance to this day. All Catholics are convinced(including members of my immediate family)that their entrance into Heaven is secured because they were baptised Catholic as babies, and have confessed their sins to priests.
Jesus Christ is the only intermediary between man and God. You confess to Him and He intercedes. The Catholic church is an abomination and a lie.
Jan, yes they were illiterate, could not read, but they had ears!!!
The Catholic church fed them lies, and built a religion/organization of false doctrines and lies, and created a religious/political dogma that was authoritative, in which the least divergence was met with swift suppression and accusations of heresy.
I was told at an early age, 9-10 yrs old, that if I even went into another denominations church I would go to hell. They were very strict about such things.
The twelve apostles and Mary(the mother of Jesus)are no different than us, and that is what the scriptures teach. They cannot intercede for us. Praying to them is praying to an idol/idol worship.
They have lead literally billions away from the truth straight to hell.
Once again Jan, I am fully aware of the Gutenberg press, and the lack of the written Words availability to the common man prior to it. They used this to their advantage. They could have read and taught scripture, but they were determined to suppress the truth and teach lies and dogma.
So it IS correct that they kept the Word of God(The Bible)the spoken Word from the people, and they continue to do so to this day. My sister believes what they insinuate...that "The Bible is for the priests, and they will teach us what is necessary."
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 10, 2009 - 12:38pm PT
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777 wrote
" I truly doubt if any of the Popes(or many Catholic priests) will be found in Heaven!"
Where will they be and for how long?
If Jesus is God, how do you explain that his message was mostly spread by Paul, who never met Jesus and was actually present at the stoning of a Christian? How would you explain that God's only church for well over 1000 years was the very one you consider sinful? If protestant ideology had been given total dominion from the year 300, do you really think there would have been no inquisitions or conquering of natives?
Worshipping a book might be idolotry like worshipping Saints. (I'm not saying either is right or wrong)
I think it's disingenuous to consider every development in the history of religion that you agree with to have been inspired by God (perhaps the reformation and so on) but blame man on everything you don't.
How about sincere but mistaken pastors and believers from other denominations (ones you might not agree with?) Where do they go?
Seems like Hell has a serious overpopulation problem. Why didn't God make us a little more carefully if he planned on tossing us to torture so easily?
Careful
Peace
Karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 10, 2009 - 01:07pm PT
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Karl!
I am going by what they teach. And what they taught me. I already went over that. According to Christ there is only one way to the Father...through Him. Not through baptism. And certainly not by paying a priest to pray them out of a purgatory.
And it takes more than a simple acknowledgement that you believe He is God. "For even the demons believe He is God." Jesus says "You must be born again".
There are priests, nuns and Catholics in general that have come to that realization, that you need to have a personal relationship with Christ. I've met some(I did so at eight myself). And there are the "charismatic Catholics" who believe it is necessary to confess that you are a sinner and personally except Christ as their Savior. You can not get into Heaven upon your own merits. "all have fallen short...".
We are expected to follow His teachings and walk in the good works that He leads us to, and expects us to accomplish. But that alone will not get anyone into Heaven. If it could, His death would have been in vain/not necessary!!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 10, 2009 - 01:27pm PT
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Karl!
I spread His message and have never met Him in the flesh!!
Paul had a conversion on the road to Damascus and was excepted by all of the other Apostles as an equal. I personally believe(as did the twelve apostles)that Paul had a personal revelation from God/Jesus.
The four Gospels are the main body and Paul adheres to them and the Old Testament teachings in regards to the fulfillment of Christ as the Messiah. I don't have a problem with Paul whatsoever. I regard his letters to the early church as instruction in sound doctrine.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 10, 2009 - 01:40pm PT
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777 writes
"I spread His message and have never met Him in the flesh!!"
With Love and due respect, I submit that you spend more time spreading Paul's message than that of Jesus. Jesus preached love, compassion, non-judgement and forgiveness. Why teach people to love and forgive their enemies on earth when he (as God) would be all about the worst possible punishment and torture for far lesser offenses?
If you spread the message of a God who is in the business of condemning people to eternal suffering for "crimes" like "Not believing" or being mistaken about Religion, then I'm afraid I feel that both you and Paul would have benefited from learning from Jesus directly.
There is a biblical record of disagreements between Paul and the actual apostles. If Osama Bin Laden said he had a revelation and started preaching Christianity, would you consider him to speak for Jesus?
Peace
Karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 10, 2009 - 01:41pm PT
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Karl- "but blame man on everything you don't"
There is another character that is being left out of the picture, and since the beginning of creation has been deceiving us!! Let's not leave him out. And he will play a very big part in the development of religion(a one world religion)in the not so distant future. Perhaps you will witness it.
By the way, Satan loves religion. Just as long as you are not Christian and Spirit filled.
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slayton
Trad climber
Here and There
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Dec 10, 2009 - 01:44pm PT
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For anyone who cares to check it out there is a very good show on PBS Frontline about the early history of Christianity from the first teachings of Jesus up to the creation of the church in Rome. Just watched it online last night. Very interesting.
Cheers,
Sean
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 10, 2009 - 01:55pm PT
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Karl!
We have gone over this before. I spread Christ's message in regard to eternity. And have spent over forty years of my life simply telling people of Gods love for them and of Jesus death and resurrection. I rarely speak of Hell!
You, and others here are the ones who continue to bring up Hell and eternity...I simply respond to what Christ preaches in regard to a literal Hell. I can not even recall any quotes made by Paul regarding Hell(not saying there are none).
You do admit there is such a place do you not? Jesus spoke of it three times more than He did of Heaven!!
I spend much more time speaking of the thousand year reign of Christ here on earth after His return with all of His believers. This forum is not even 1/1000th of what I have done over the years and now to spread the Word!!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 10, 2009 - 02:01pm PT
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Here's a link to that Frontline program
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/
777, we can agree to disagree on dogma. I encourage you to continue to remain open to the messages of Spirit and a fresh reading of what Jesus taught, rather than common interpretations of such
Peace
Karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 10, 2009 - 02:13pm PT
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BASE104- "shame on...".
I did not say anyone was going to hell above, I said I do not believe you are going to find many of the Priests etc. that I saw and heard in Heaven!!!
I was going by what Jesus preached. A man reading out of the Bible will not get Him into Heaven. It is what the "economical approach" to Christianity is about. Satan quoted the Bible to Jesus!!
I think it was a good thing what the priest did. It is what they are instructed to do in hospitals(I've worked in any)and at various ceremony's, weddings, funerals etc. It is in regards to salvation that I am speaking.
You are shaming Jesus Christ, for He spoke of the correct way to worship and know Him.
Believe what you want. A little of this, a little of that(the ecumenical way). But I would suggest reading the gospel of John for yourself before you go around shaming followers of Christ for stating what He preached.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 10, 2009 - 02:21pm PT
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Karl!
Thanks for the link, I will take a look at it know and over the next few days(looks like a lot to digest).
And I suggest you do likewise with a "fresh reading" of one of the Gospels(as will I). It would do us all some good!
Peace, Trip~
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Norton
Social climber
the Middle Class
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2009 - 02:28pm PT
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"Ardi" is the nickname given to a shattered skeleton that an international team of scientists painstakingly excavated from the Ethiopian desert, analyzed over the course of 15 years, and declared Thursday to be a major breakthrough in the study of human origins. Ardi lived more than a million years before "Lucy," a much-celebrated, 3.2 million-year-old fossil of an early human progenitor found just 45 miles away.
If the scientists are correct, Ardi and her kind were the ancestors of our ancestors. She was a transitional figure, almost a hybrid -- a tree creature who could carry food in her arms as she explored the woodland floor on two legs.
The skeletal remnants of Ardi were recovered along with bones from at least 35 other members of a species that the scientists call Ardipithecus ramidus. Their arduous investigation had incited grumbling in a scientific community that had grown impatient to find out what exactly had been found in the silty clay of Ethiopia. The answers are dramatic, detailed in 11 papers published Thursday in the online edition of the journal Science and discussed in dual press conferences in Washington and Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.
The discovery of Ardi "further confirms that Ethiopia is the cradle of humankind," said Yohannes Haile-Selassie, the paleontologist who found the first two bones of Ardi in 1994.
We KNOW there were modern HUMANS at least 200,000 years ago.
WHY did THEY get screwed and have NO shot at an afterlife?
WHEN does Christianity say the guy in the sky reached down and
"gave" a SOUL to humans?
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Dec 10, 2009 - 02:47pm PT
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I would imagine Cro Magnon man would have to enter Purgatory where he would then be educated concerning salvation. Right, Norton?
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 10, 2009 - 04:07pm PT
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BASE104- "excepting Christ in your heart".
Exactly, that is it and the Catholic church does not teach this, GET IT BASE-BUDDY?
I grew up in the Catholic church, that is what I was alluding to. Jesus said you must be born again OK!
You are welcome to your own opinion, but before you start shaming what Christ teaches you should look into what I was criticizing in regards to the Catholic religion.
EDIT: You should go back a couple of months ago and read what I said in regards to Tobin Sorenson and that very same quote!! Faith, Hope, and Love.
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 10, 2009 - 04:14pm PT
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Base,
I am sorry to hear that your mom is in such serious circumstances.
My thoughts and prayers are with both of you.
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 10, 2009 - 04:23pm PT
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Norton,
How we do know those early humans didn't have a soul?
Whether you believe in Creation in seven days, or evolving Creationism, whatever, God does not condemn anyone for what they do not know.
Therefore, those pre-historic people (or however you would care to refer to them) would be given the covering of Christ's grace, and would not be condemned.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 10, 2009 - 04:50pm PT
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"Rational arguments don't usually work on religious people. Otherwise, there wouldn't be religious people."
-Doris Egan
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 10, 2009 - 05:12pm PT
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Inside my heart is only blood gushing.
Inside my body is only pus guts and stool.
Some DNA too.
Where the fuk is this so called LOVE inside me?????
The scientist never told me nor found any so called LOVE.
It's a conspiracy ........
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 10, 2009 - 05:39pm PT
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BASE104!
To be honest, I am not sure what the Catholic Church is teaching these days. In regards to the statement I made up-thread I had in mind a particular church or two that I and my family attended back in the late 1950's and early 1960's. In retrospect it is a rather harsh statement to make in regards to the Pope's and priests but it is exactly what they teach in regards to the Mormons, Methodist and Lutherans that you mentioned up-thread(or at least they did in the early 1960's).
I guess I am a little concerned about my older sister, who takes what we learned back then as truth. She and my other sister were baptised as babies, and she believes that is what will get her into Heaven. That is what the Catholic church taught us back then. That all other religions WERE going to Hell. And that my sister was going to Heaven because a priest sprinkled "holy" water on her head at the age of two. She is still convinced. I was simply stating that it is not what Jesus teaches in the Gospels.
And she believes that other religions have their own way to God. Jesus says otherwise BASE!! And it is an act of LOVE, not hate, to point out the truth. And the obvious false teachings of the Catholic church that we knew.
I am also sorry to here about your mothers condition. I know it must be difficult for you at this time. My father had a major stroke and lived for eighteen months before he passed away. We were there every other day attending to him. It was very difficult, especially towards the end.
EDIT: I thought Skip was/is a Catholic??
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 10, 2009 - 05:43pm PT
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Nobody started out to kill God.
Oh yeah .....
Hiranyakasipu did from the very beginning.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 10, 2009 - 05:45pm PT
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777 is not Skip (who we may hear from soon because he is Catholic!)
777 writes
"And I suggest you do likewise with a "fresh reading" of one of the Gospels(as will I). It would do us all some good!"
I haven't seen those episodes myself. Somebody mentioned them and so they are now cued up for my viewing.
I've found some external scholarship regarding the origin, history and context of the gospels to be valuable in learning how to read the Gospels. If you ever get a chance to check out stuff from Bart Ehrman, it's a good perspective to balance habitual way folks study the bible with
http://www.bartdehrman.com/
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 10, 2009 - 06:33pm PT
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The goal is never to go to heaven in the first place ....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 10, 2009 - 07:17pm PT
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Base wrote
"One of the things I have never understood about religion is that it requires belief to get into heaven. "
Just an interesting fact that Christianity is virtually alone as requiring a belief to go to heaven. None of the Eastern Paths, nor Judaism do, and not really Islam either. (Although Islam is probably closer to Christianity than the rest in this sense...also in Islam, it is Jesus and not Mohammed who comes on Judgement day)
Then, there is how you define "belief" What's that really mean?
Peace
Karl
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 10, 2009 - 07:44pm PT
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Heaven is not the same as Nirvana, right Werner?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 10, 2009 - 07:48pm PT
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Nirvana is not the goal either ......
Cessation of all material activities, equals false renunciation.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 10, 2009 - 07:49pm PT
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So what do you call it?
From your edit, it sounds like you are advocating what the Buddhists call being a Boddhisattva, and returning to this suffering world to help others?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 10, 2009 - 07:51pm PT
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The greatest soul ever is the one who only serves the lord, no matter where.
This great soul does not care if he goes to hell or upper planetary systems thus he is ever liberated where ever he is ........
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 10, 2009 - 08:04pm PT
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The atheists, non believers and so on whatever one wants to call themselves are also killers, murders, and war mongers just as the try to deflect that on the so called Christians.
Maintaining large scale industrialized and mechanized slaughterhouses they are also so cruel and dark with their mistreatment of animals.
Thus they have lost their soul ......
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 10, 2009 - 08:14pm PT
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This great soul does not care if he goes to hell or upper planetary systems thus he is ever liberated where ever he is
In Buddhism, this is the definition of a Buddha. One who chooses Nirvana is reabsorbed into what you call God (Advaita Vedanta) and one who chooses to exist somewhere else in service is a Boddhissattva.
Different names, same belief as far as I can tell.
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slayton
Trad climber
Here and There
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Dec 10, 2009 - 08:25pm PT
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I was the one who mentioned the Frontline episodes. One of many interesting ideas presented is that the Gospels were never meant to be taken literally but were meant as parable. They were written by four different men, in four different geographical areas for four vastly different audiences, some Jewish and some Gentile (there were no Christians at this point). Even in the very beginning there were differences of opinion about the direction this new movement should take with Paul emphasising the death and resurrection while others emphasised the words and teachings of Jesus.
To me there are the words and teachings of Jesus, meant to reaveal the path to a righteous and ethical life, and then there are all of the Christian religions, bickering amongst themselved about whose path is the true path, using the symbol of Jesus for their own ends and means.
I say screw the ritual. Go to the source. But then the main "source", the Bible, isn't even really complete because so much was left out by the original Church in Rome because it wasn't politically expedient or the information conflicted with message they wanted to project. I guess this makes the Catholic Church one of the first spin doctors. Hmmm .. ..
Cheers,
Sean
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 10, 2009 - 08:29pm PT
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It has been said that people took the religion of Jesus and turned it into a religion about Jesus.
It is very fascinating by the way, to read through the gospels and epistles, which were not included in the Christian canon.
In particular, I would mention the Gospel According to Thomas.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 10, 2009 - 08:40pm PT
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Nirvana is reabsorbed into what you call God
The Mayavadi theory that after liberation the individual soul, separated by the covering of māyā or illusion, will merge into the impersonal Brahman and lose its individual existence is not supported.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 10, 2009 - 09:54pm PT
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Thanks Werner for the reference!
I've just started reading about the Mayavadi theory and the Vedic objections.
It will take a while to get through it though.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 10, 2009 - 11:08pm PT
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If you ask me, Base, God doesn't pay any attention to what religion you are.
The Ultimate Spirit knows you directly from the inside and sees with unconditional Love.
We judge ourselves, whether we are believers or not. Jesus hinted at it when he said, "Judge not, lest ye be Judged'
It's your state of Being that counts (some might say the quality of your heart, which is the same thing but a different metaphor) not what you think, which is only there when you think it.
We can think all kinds of things but it's just different content in the brain space if it doesn't change you within
Peace
Karl
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 10, 2009 - 11:10pm PT
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"The new Hubble deep field. Just look at all those galaxies.
And yet we're supposed to be God's precious one-and-onlys?
How naive."
"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."
John 10:16
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 10, 2009 - 11:12pm PT
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"In my papa's house there are many rooms."
Something like that, anyway.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 11, 2009 - 12:09am PT
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W said, Maintaining large scale industrialized and mechanized slaughterhouses they are also so cruel and dark with their mistreatment of animals.
I hadn't realized that it was only athiests who did that.
Sure there aren't just a few religious ranchers out there?
What a strange thing to write.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 11, 2009 - 12:26am PT
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Maintaining large scale industrialized and mechanized slaughterhouses qualifies as atheistic.
So if one says I'm a Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, etc etc and maintains and supports industrialized and mechanized slaughterhouses then where's "religion"?
Saying animals have no soul and we can do whatever we want with them to eat them, breed them and kill them in such horrible conditions qualify as insane.
Let me take all your dogs and fatten them up in cages and then slaughter them and make sausages and hamburgers out of them and you eat your dog tomorrow for breakfast.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 11, 2009 - 12:56am PT
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Do animals have a soul? All animals, or only some? If they do, do those animals enjoy the afterlife benefits that humans do if they accept Jesus?
Every living entity is an individual soul.
Do those animals enjoy the afterlife benefits that humans do if they accept Jesus?
Yes
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 11, 2009 - 01:07am PT
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If a Christian, or Christianity in general says no, doesn't that make that person or the whole ball o wax atheistic by your definition?
I thought I made clear in the previous posts.
Doesn't that make that person or the whole ball o wax atheistic by your definition?
Yes ....But that is the definition on the authority of the Veda not me.
I have no authority .....
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 11, 2009 - 01:07am PT
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The Resurrection Body
1 Corinthians 15:35-49, But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” 36 You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. 39 For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 11, 2009 - 01:14am PT
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Do animals have a soul in your belief system?
I already said this many times previous.
Yes
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 11, 2009 - 01:21am PT
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"Do animals have a soul in your belief system?"
I'd say yes! Our "Chicky" is family!
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 11, 2009 - 01:22am PT
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Excerpt:
"The influence of the atomic soul can be spread all over a particular body. According to the Mundaka Upanisad, this atomic soul is situated in the heart of every living entity, and because the measurement of the atomic soul is beyond the power of appreciation of the material scientists, some of them assert foolishly that there is no soul.
The individual atomic soul is definitely there in the heart along with the Supersoul, and thus all the energies of bodily movement are emanating from this part of the body.
The corpuscles which carry the oxygen from the lungs gather energy from the soul.
When the soul passes away from this position, activity of the blood, generating fusion, ceases.
Medical science accepts the importance of the red corpuscles, but it cannot ascertain that the source of the energy is the soul.
Medical science, however, does admit that the heart is the seat of all energies of the body"
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 11, 2009 - 01:28am PT
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"So does your "Chicky" enjoy all the afterlife benefits..."
I don't know? I hope so!
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Dec 11, 2009 - 01:31am PT
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So how does this work?
Has Chicky accepted jesus as his personal savior?
If animals have souls do they go to the same heaven, or better yet what gets an animal sent to hell?
Only mammals? Do lobsters go to hell? Do tapeworms go to heaven?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 11, 2009 - 01:36am PT
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Animals ar under the jurisdiction of material nature.
They act according to their true nature.
Humans can act as animals or as humans according to the consciousness they develop.
This heaven and hell thing is not really applicable to animals.
Besides, many people are in hell right here and now on this planet.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 11, 2009 - 01:36am PT
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Would Chicky have to accept Jesus first?
Chicky is innocent, as well as children, and the handicapped, will all be in heaven!
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Dec 11, 2009 - 01:38am PT
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Do they have mosquitoes in heaven?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 11, 2009 - 01:42am PT
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"Do they have mosquitoes in heaven?"
I'd say no snakes!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 11, 2009 - 01:50am PT
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"This heaven and hell thing is not really applicable to animals."
I think Werner is right.
"How are the handicapped innocent? And what defines "handicapped"?"
Mentally...
"Do all animals go to heaven because they're innocent?"
All animals are innocent!
But as far as we are concerned, when you know that God forgives you through Jesus and you don't want anything to do with Him, Then you die, I'd say you were SOL!(Seriously Out of Luck)
But if your not dead, God is not done trying!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 11, 2009 - 02:05am PT
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I Just don't know what happens to the animals, but Chicky is like us he feels and knows us and in a body like we are, and we love him!
Edit; I don't have all the answers, I just trust God that He know how to take care of everything, after all He made it!
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 11, 2009 - 02:16am PT
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The important point is not religion but that the slaughterhouses be eliminated.
This will be the first step towards promoting peaceful existence.
Maintaining a mechanized animal slaughter which is very violent will just promote a general violent consciousness against nature.
Nature does and will retaliate .....
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 11, 2009 - 02:21am PT
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"Why has he kept that a secret?"
I get what I know from the Bible, teachers(of the Bible), and life. I have not read it in the Bible, what happens to animals, to say. It is a good question, and I'll ask some friends, to see what they say!
It's late, goodnight my brother!
Gobee
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 11, 2009 - 02:34am PT
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Someone here once advised me that cats are considered evil by Christians, or perhaps it was Mormons. If cats are evil, that must mean that they have free will, and have chosen to be evil - which means that they must have souls. Q.E.D.
Of course, my cat Loki isn't evil. Pagan possibly. Definitely not Christian. Occasionally wicked in thought if not in deed.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 11, 2009 - 03:25am PT
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Warbler!
"All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to the to dust. Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?" Ecclesiastes 3:21
Both humans and beasts die and go to the grave. But this is not the end for human beings-they will face eternal life or death.
Man is body, soul and spirit. Animals do not have a soul. They simply cease to exist.
But that does not mean that that God could not bring back our beloved animals/pets for us to share eternity with us. Nothing is impossible with Him. Several well known Christian writers, such as Billy Graham have written books about how our pets will be with us in "Heaven".
I just wanted to add that the first 1,000 years will be spent right here on this earth. And then He is going to create a new heavens and earth.
And it does state that the lion will lay down with the lamb. And the child will play with the cobra during that time.
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MH2
climber
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Dec 11, 2009 - 03:40am PT
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Someone here once advised me that cats are considered evil by Christians, or perhaps it was Mormons.
MH,
Now that skytrain is introducing dogs to detect explosives a part of the Islamic community is concerned, mainly because recent contact with a dog would make it bad form to enter a mosque. A representative of that point of view was asking how much separation would be maintained between dog and human body: 20 cm? 30 cm? (CBC Radio yesterday morning)
Reading any good comprehensive history of religions should give anyone serious doubt about any religion. Yet belief persists in the extra-human for us to admire and take as an example of how to behave. All that's needed is the Golden Rule, or tit-for-tat. We could certainly use divine help, but if something is keeping watch out there, let it please tighten up its game.
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MH2
climber
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Dec 11, 2009 - 03:43am PT
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All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to the to dust.
Our lives pass on from door to door
Dust across the wooden floor
Like feather rain and thunder roar
We need not know the reason
I Knew This Place
(David Mallett)
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 11, 2009 - 03:46am PT
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Warbler!
Before Christ came to earth people were judged differently by God, and likewise for those that never heard of Him/Jesus.
He does make Himself known through the creation- "For since the creation of the earth His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by those things that are made..." Romans 1:20
His divine attributes are seen in the material universe. From the complex structure of molecules to the grand mountain ranges of the world, to the universe itself. He makes us aware of it. Perhaps it is what you are sensing in nature(I believe so).
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 11, 2009 - 03:51am PT
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Just for the record...Christians do not consider cats, or any other animals for that matter, as being "evil".
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 11, 2009 - 05:30am PT
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Dr F wrote Karl, what is the message of the spirit?
I was going to write that our intuitive inner guidance varies from time to time and person to person but, you asked me a question and here's what message it brings up for me in this thread...
Believer, or agnostic...navigating this world always holds mystery and uncertainty. We are always going to be wrong to some degree and hopefully learn more as we walk the path of life.
This being the case, it's best to have Love as our rudder and guide. Love, unconditional Love, is the closest experience to God most of us ever have and trusting in Love will breed better results than intellectually deciding what dogma says. God will forgive us every-time if we err on the side of Love and Forgiveness, even if we don't believe in God at all.
Love is magic and every heart resonates with it. Love changes people without trying to while other arguments simply make everyone defensive.
I choose Love and let the chips fall where they may
Peace
Karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 11, 2009 - 05:55am PT
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...or any other animals for that matter, as being "evil".
Good to know - I'll have to remember to take Treponema pallidum pallidum out of the evil column...
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 11, 2009 - 06:22am PT
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healyje- "Good to know".
Rockjox- "............".
That was in response to Mighty Hikers statement- "Someone here once advised me that cats are considered evil by Christians".FWIW
Therefore I responded before it snowballed into....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 11, 2009 - 06:47am PT
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Well, as someone with a micro background I can tell you that - whether by evolution or design - bacteria and viruses are just about perfect. What I'm still trying to piece together why god would design some of these perfect killing machines - say viral hemorrhagics (Ebola, Marburg, Lassa) or River Blindness (Onchocerca volvulus - a worm). Whether you get them or not has nothing to do with good and evil or making moral choices.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 11, 2009 - 06:55am PT
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Just don't blame it on my cat!
She isn't even a Black Cat!!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 11, 2009 - 07:01am PT
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Ebola is wicked!
I have worked in nursing homes and hospitals over the years as an OTR.
I do not believe God created it. Death and disease was introduced into the framework through decay and death and evil incarnate, Satan himself!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 11, 2009 - 07:27am PT
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So satan is a co-equal with god in creating life? And a healthy human body also consists of about 100,000,000,000,000 bacterial cells, most of which we can't exist without. Did satan or god create them? Which came first?
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 11, 2009 - 10:15am PT
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WB wrote Maintaining large scale industrialized and mechanized slaughterhouses qualifies as atheistic.
So, if I'm a hamburger eating Christian, that makes me an athiest? I believe in god and don't believe in god simultaneously through the killing and eating of animals? I don't see where not following religion by supporting poor meat production makes one an atheist. Maybe that makes you a failed religious practitioner, but if you still believe in a god(s), you are not an atheist. Perhaps instead of "atheistic" you mean "poor religiosity". Laying this at the feet of atheism is absurd.
If we killed them on a small scale in total comfort (bed of hay with soft music) would that be okay?
When I wash my hands and kill millions (billions?) of bacterial animals using industrial chemicals = atheism? Only the immobile, unwashed, vegans are capable of being religious. Do the smallest among us not have souls? Is there a scale here where cows are to be saved but not bacteria (worms, amoebas, viruses, malaria spreading mosquitos, etc.)? Just curious. Where does the soul searching begin and end?
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Robb
Social climber
The Greeley Triangle
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Dec 11, 2009 - 10:46am PT
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Hey Kev, quick theology lesson.
God created Lucifer,
Satan created himself by his rebellion against God.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 11, 2009 - 10:50am PT
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According to John Gardiner (Freddies Book) Satan created God.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 11, 2009 - 10:54am PT
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I thought god was all powerful. Why does god allow satan to exist? Is he not powerful enough to defeat him? If god is all knowing, didn't god know what was going to happen? I'm sorry but the whole thing sounds pretty lame.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 11, 2009 - 11:09am PT
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Let the apologetics begin!
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 11, 2009 - 11:26am PT
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God created Lucifer, who in the begining was a beautiful angel. Over the course of time Lucifer desired more power. Angels have enormous power of their own, under the authority of God. Lucifer rebelled, and was cast out of heaven, along with numerous other angels who were his followers. Now called Satan (to reflect his fallen nature) he now desired to meddle with God's creation. When Satan convinced Adam and Eve to follow him rather than God, all of nature fell under the curse of Satan, since Adam and Eve had been given authority by God to chart the course of life on Earth..that is what their "Stewardship" was about. Adam and Eve deferred that stewardship to Satan; sin and death entered the world.
Satan is currently the prince of this world. Suffering and death (and mosquitos) are a result of man's fall from the companionship with God to the dominion of Satan. Adam and Eve's real and spriritual actions had real and spiritual consequences.
And God DID defeat Satan, through the cross of Jesus Christ. Jesus took the penalty for the fall upon Himself, defeating Satan. Satan knows he is defeated for eternity, and will be ultimately when Christ comes to take over physical dominion over the earth. Until then, he is going down kicking and screaming, trying to take as many people down with him as he can.
This is obviously a very brief and incomplete synopsis of the entire situation. If it were easy, we wouldn't be having such awesome, thought-provoking debates, would we?
There will be a brief silence from my area of the dugout for a while. :)
My workout partner is waiting!!!
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 11, 2009 - 11:36am PT
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"Someone here once advised me that cats are considered evil by Christians, or perhaps it was Mormons."
Someone was spoofing you, Anders, Mormons have a cat on every sofa (and a dog on every porch)...... It must be those crazed, crafty and crimpestuous J.W.s..... or possibly those Sabbath skewering Seventh Day Catventists.
..... but I've heard from a very reliable source that Krishnas add catnip to their salad dressing.
And if St Peter doesn't allow my kitties through the gates of Heaven.......I'm going elsewhere !
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 11, 2009 - 11:38am PT
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But didn't god know what Adam and Eve were going to do? The big guy set them up (and all of us, presumably). "Oh, and don't go near that all important apple tree...hee, hee." Are you really saying he didn't know what would happen? Really? Was he too busy rearranging stars in the Andromeda galaxy to notice?
He allows the world to turn to sh*t and then waits thousands of years to come up with the Jesus thing. He defeats Satan with a human sacrifice? That's his best shot? Like I said - lame.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 11, 2009 - 11:40am PT
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I may have posted this before...
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
— Epicurus
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 11, 2009 - 12:26pm PT
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The Warbler asked "Can you answer the question - seriously - Did God create Satan?"
"Seems Christians often, if not always, sidestep the toughest and most elemental questions regarding their faith, and often change the subject by responding with feelgood trivia."
I can't speak for all Christians on this. I believe Satan was an offspring of God the Father and who rebelled against Him and made war and was ultimately cast out with the hosts who followed him (Satan). Gods greatest gift to his children, next to EXISTENCE, is free agency. But with free agency comes the option of rebellion. Satan chose rebellion.
Our existence on earth is probationary.....or a test if you will. Satan is ALLOWED to tempt us as part of that probation. But infering, from that, that Satan is as powerful as God ?......well, Epicurus was in need of logic lessons from Aristotle.
Supreme authority is with God. Satan will, at the end of this Earthly dispensation, be chained and prevented from warring with God and his children.
This isn't universal Christian belief, so I can't represent it as such. .....But I agree with most all of Skipt's post about God perfecting humans by allowing opposition in their lives.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 11, 2009 - 12:28pm PT
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skip, Everytime I bring up the apparent contradiction between gods much lauded omnipotence and his apparent unwillingness to prevent evil, I get the same response like the one you just gave.
Let's forget for a minute about the sins people commit. What about the suffering caused by natural diasters, disease (especially born upon children) etc? All sorts of evil slips past gods almightiness. We often learn most from just the hardships of life in general. I really hate the "it builds character" line, what utter BS.
Millions laid waste by disease and distruction. Are these, as you say, "problems of our own making". These are the evils I'm mainly talking about. Why does god allow things to be so, well, god-awful? I have never heard a good answer to this. I realize this has been discussed at length here and in other threads. Unless you've got something better or new to add, you might as well not bother.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 11, 2009 - 12:41pm PT
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John Milton had some fun stuff to say about Lucifer, who undoubtedly got the good role in his poems.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 11, 2009 - 12:52pm PT
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Jennie said, Our existence on earth is probationary.....or a test if you will. Satan is ALLOWED to tempt us as part of that probation. But infering, from that, that Satan is as powerful as God ?......well, Epicurus was in need of logic lessons from Aristotle.
No one is inferring Satan is as powerful, the question is why doesn't god do something about it? Why does he allow it all to continue this way? Enough with Satan and the whole sin thing, what about the all the other distructive crap we have to endure? Why does god allow (enjoy?) this very messy "probationary" period?
After Satan is defeated, will we still have free will? If everything is going to be hunky-dory after the dust settles, what is god waiting for? Get on with it and end the suffeing already, dude.
Still no answer as to did god know all this was going to happen.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Dec 11, 2009 - 12:58pm PT
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Also, after the fall of Lucifer --> Satan, you need to know what happened and all the details regarding the 33.33% of the Angels falling with Lucifer (now Satan), and what then took place on Earth. This is very crucial information to really understand the entire picture. You need to read the book of Enoch.
Here is a very good copy of the Book of Enoch with a whole chapter devoted to cross comparing using scripture from the Bible, and how it is in line with the rest of the Holy Bible perfectly, and is even often qouted from within what we accept as the Holy Bible today . . .
Fallen Angels and the Origins of Evil: Why Church Fathers Suppressed the Book of Enoch and Its Startling Revelations
by Elizabeth Clare Prophet
http://www.amazon.com/Fallen-Angels-Origins-Evil-Revelations/dp/0922729433/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260553519&sr=8-8
You know the bottom line is this, would GOD want his finest creation to be robotic and love him at the snap of a finger, or would GOD want to chance it and give his creation the ability to think for themselves, and have the freedom of choice to choose to love him or reject him?
Which love is real? Forced or chosen?
Now, you know why. He took a huge risk, but in the end he will have a Universe full of creation that has chosen to love him because we want to love him and we chose to love him. Love that is real and not fake, that is what he wants from us and we want from him.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 11, 2009 - 01:06pm PT
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bc -- "Why does he allow it all to continue this way?"
You allow it not some God. You're the rascal always pointing the finger outside of yourself.
Be a rascal and nature will retaliate.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 11, 2009 - 01:16pm PT
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No skip, I was saying your answer was BS. Do you believe that such things are "problems of our own making" (your words)? Do you believe god allows disease and distruction to build character and to learn something about ourselves? That's it?
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 11, 2009 - 01:22pm PT
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You allow it not some God. You're the rascal always pointing the finger outside of yourself.
Be a rascal and nature will retaliate.
I create tsunamis, earthquakes, disease? Wow, I had no idea I was such a silly rascal!
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 11, 2009 - 01:31pm PT
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Charity is character.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 11, 2009 - 01:32pm PT
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Well we can truly see that bc has no real comprehension, only a cave man knee jerk reaction.
Doesn't seem to be able to think much either.
Like I said in my previous post tsunamis, earthquakes, disease are natures reactions and retaliations for our rascaldom against it.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 11, 2009 - 01:32pm PT
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So was man created before or after Lucifer's fall from grace?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 11, 2009 - 01:36pm PT
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The American Alpine Institute's current ad on SuperTopo:
"When hell freezes over, we'll climb there too!"
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 11, 2009 - 01:38pm PT
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Like I said in my previous post tsunamis, earthquakes, disease are natures reactions and retaliations for our rascaldom against it.
I gladly accept my kinship with the cave men and remain happy I do not see the world as you do.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 11, 2009 - 01:40pm PT
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skip, I left out the word "not" in my last post.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 11, 2009 - 01:44pm PT
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I gladly accept my kinship with the cave men and remain happy I do not see the world as you do.
Then fix the world rascal, and quit wasting time talking .....
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 11, 2009 - 01:47pm PT
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Who says I'm wasting my time. Maybe I'm saving the world by posting on this miserable thread.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 11, 2009 - 01:47pm PT
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So again, was man created before or after Lucifer's fall from grace?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 11, 2009 - 02:05pm PT
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healyje -- "So again, was man created before or after Lucifer's fall from grace?"
Well, anyone?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 11, 2009 - 02:19pm PT
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 11, 2009 - 03:00pm PT
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Is it really 'free will' when your only choices are obedience and eternal damnation?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 11, 2009 - 03:09pm PT
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Is it really 'free will' when your only choices are obedience and eternal damnation?
Yes good question.
My answer is, NO, as that would not constitute "free will"
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 11, 2009 - 03:53pm PT
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Healyje asked "Is it really 'free will' when your only choices are obedience and eternal damnation?"
Opinion:
I don't believe there is any eternal damnation except for those in chosen defiance and opposition to God (knowing fully the consequence) (The unpardonable sin is mentioned several times in the Bible and Midrash writing.) Some bible literalists will disagree with that opinion.
But aside from this "unpardonable sin" (which few even have the knowledge to tresspass), all divine punishment, all karmic debt is finite and comes to an end.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 11, 2009 - 03:56pm PT
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So you think Lucifer's dilemma of prostrating before man was a matter of free will?
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 11, 2009 - 04:09pm PT
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It would seem to me that Lucifer enjoyed free agency throughout his career. He will be chained (spiritually) , which will seriously restrict his evil. He will continue to have freedom of agency but his powers will be nil. Again, my opinion.
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 11, 2009 - 04:17pm PT
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I think the term "obedience" may be somewhat misunderstood. Yes, there is obedience to God's law, such as not killing, not stealing, etc., which society generally deems to be necessary for people to co-exist in harmony. That would probably be termed "general obedience" (my terminology).
A believer's relationship to God is similar to a marriage. In a marriage, you know the duties and responsibilities expected of you as a partner, and out of love and respect for your partner you do your best to adhere to them. One of these expectations would be fidelity, another would be devoting time and attention to your partner. These are not seen as an impositition (at least I hope not!)but as a part of the love relationship, which allows that relationship to flourish and grow. Do I term these things as "obedience" in my marriage? I think of it more as obedience to the covenant I made to my spouse when we pledged ourselves to each other.
It is the same in my relationship with God. He askes for my faithfulness to Him. This is never a burden, any more than my faithfulness to my spouse would be; it is rather a joy. In return God freely gives of Himself to me.
God does not demand, or want, mindless robots. Jesus exhorted us to love God with "all of your mind", along with our hearts, etc. Obedience is not "blind" or even unquestioning. Abraham, Moses, Job, even Jesus, all checked in with God at various times.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 11, 2009 - 05:20pm PT
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So, would that be a yes or no? If Lucifer's* only choice was to obey the command to prostrate himself before man or be cast into hell, I'm having a hard time spotting the 'free will' involved.
The whole 'free will' thing has always been curious to me. For instance, back in college I worked graveyard on the peds wing of a nursing home. I did my best to care for 50 infants every night, many of whom weren't going to live a month and very few of whom were going to live more than a year or two max. Wandering around the floor with three babies in my arms I'd wonder, "just where did 'free will' come into play for an infant born without most of its brain?" What was god's point? What's god trying to tell us with deadly congenital defects?
* Setting aside the fact Lucifer, angels, and being 'cast down' all pre-date christianity as ancient pagan constructs
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 11, 2009 - 05:32pm PT
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What was god's point?
Good luck getting a straight answer on that one, healy.
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 11, 2009 - 05:36pm PT
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Lucifer was never told to prostrate himself before man. He was jealous because man was created in God's image (with a soul, with free will) which the angels did not have. Nowhere is it said that angels were told to bow to man. In most recorded angelic/human interactions, the human shows great respect to the angel. The angel does not defer to man.
Congenital defects, etc., are the result of the fall of man. This was not God's original intention, but the result of our turning over the rule of the earth to Satan. Satan hates human beings and will use any means he can to cause us harm. That being said, his power is limited. Skip's suggestion of reading Job is an excellent one.
As for where God is in all this...He works through human beings. In fact, as the person who held and comforted those children back in the pediatric ward so long ago, you were acting with the love and compassion of God. We are made in God's image. WE are to be the hands and feet of Jesus in the world until He comes again.
Do we still screw up? Of course we do. That is where grace comes in.
EDIT: sorry, should have said NEVER!!!
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 11, 2009 - 05:36pm PT
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Sometimes a soul only needs to live in a mortal material body for a short period.
Just like some prisoners only are sentenced to jail for a few months, (crude example).
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bmacd
Trad climber
British Columbia
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Dec 11, 2009 - 05:40pm PT
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Sometimes a soul only needs to live in a mortal material body for a short period.
Just like some prisoners only are sentenced to jail for a few months, (crude example).
Werner sounds like you have read Lou Baldins "A day with an Extraterrestrial"
http://www.ufolou.com/
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 11, 2009 - 05:43pm PT
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Yes, Werner, I know how your theology accounts for it, my question was for the christians.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 11, 2009 - 05:46pm PT
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Joe, do you really think you're going to get a straight answer that isn't wrapped in layers of contradiction and irrationalization? I mean, good on ya for trying, but really...
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 11, 2009 - 05:56pm PT
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Congenital defects, etc., are the result of the fall of man. This was not God's original intention, but the result of our turning over the rule of the earth to Satan.
I'll ask again, if god is all knowing, did he not see this coming or was the fall a complete surprise to him? It looks to me he simply let it happen. If it was a surprise, he is not all knowing. Which is it?
Funny that generation upon generation of humans are made to suffer for the momentary foolishness of a pair of naked simpletons wandering about a garden containing a dangerous apple tree inhabited by a talking snake.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 11, 2009 - 05:57pm PT
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cintune
I really believe now that you're just plain stupid.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 11, 2009 - 06:01pm PT
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That's okay, lighten up, dude.
That's another problem with religion, no fecking sense of humor whatsoever.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 11, 2009 - 06:03pm PT
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Lucifer was ever told to prostrate himself before man.
I suspect most christian historians would disagree with that assertion.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 11, 2009 - 06:03pm PT
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cintune
I didn't attribute anything to religion.
You're just plain stupid .....
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 11, 2009 - 06:04pm PT
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You really believe that.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 11, 2009 - 06:41pm PT
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I don't subscribe to the Lucifer being ordered to prostrate himself story. This legend comes from Islamic (Haggada) and apochryphal writings, not accepted Christian canon. There is a Hebrew tradition that the first Archangel, Michael was Adam in his earthly sojourn. Pride was said to be Lucifer's principal weakness. Legends of Lucifer refusing to "bow" to more senior archangels may be metaphoric allusion to his excess pride and showing disrespect to other angels.
There's a prominent story in Jewish lore that Lucifer objected to God giving man free will and revolted, promising to corrupt humans with their free agency. The Talmud references several angels who joined Lucifer in this "crusade." I don't believe it says they were cast into hell but were forced outside the presence of God.
I prefer to use the term "free agency" rather than "free will". Free will may suggest the POWER to execute one's will in an omnipotent manner. I lack the power to deflect an comet on collision course with Earth. I may will it......but lacking the power you may argue I don't really have free will. Puritans with their hands and feet locked in stocks retained their free agency but were prevented executing any will they may have had to harm others. So did such devices abrogate free will ?
Do angels, fallen or not, have free agency? Yes.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Dec 11, 2009 - 06:47pm PT
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There are some seriuosly deep theological questions being asked. I'm glad to see it.
This is contraversial, I do not have scripture to back it up, it is my opinion, however, time-lines do have to work out in all ways. I've said before I'm a Theistic Evolutionist.
I think the fall of Lucifer happened long before first modern man, Adam and Eve ever showed up on the scene. I think it could have been billions of years to millions of years before modern man (Adam and Eve) showed up on the scene. Sin entered creation when Lucifer thought himself better than GOD, and a third of the Angels followed and rebelled against GOD. I also think they had access to and could have had their Angelic civilizations and places of abode on formely habital planets like Mars.
See David Flynn's website particularly the articles on Mars:
http://www.mt.net/~watcher/
http://www.mt.net/%7Ewatcher/angelicconspiracy.html
http://www.mt.net/%7Ewatcher/ufos.html
"AND I DESTROYED YOU, OH COVERING CHERUB,
FROM AMONG THE STONES OF FIRE...
thus I brought a fire from your midst" (Ezekiel 28)
(Covering Cherub refers to Lucifer. That was his job before his fall, he was the Cherub that watched over and covered the throne of GOD. He was the most beautifal of all the Angels.)
When Satan rebelled, God cast him as profane from the height of heaven. Because of his rebellion, Satan was destroyed from the midst of the STONES OF FIRE, the planets, where he had reigned over literal physical kingdoms. Evidence of the civilization on Mars can still be seen, while another civilization of B'nai ha Elohim was destroyed thoroughly, becoming the asteroid belt. It is not surprising that a two-faced Sphinx has been found amongst the ruins of Mars. Lucifer is the most powerful Cherubim, and the Biblical description of a cherub can be illustrated by a Sphinx. David Flynn's research into Bible references of Satan & Cherubim on Literal Planets - THE STONES OF FIRE.
http://www.mt.net/~watcher/stones.html
The evidence there is a city within Cydonia on Mars is pretty darn good. See the book, "Dark Mission: the secret history of NASA" by Richard Hoaglend and Mike Bara. We even have remote sensing imagery (ground penetrating) from NASA and Russia that indicates a massive patchwork of artificiallity of streets and buildings and a region laid out like an agricultural pattern, as it looks below the sands of Mars in that region. The bible makes references to GOD destroying an abode of Angels, and I believe this happened after Lucifer fell from grace, and took 33.3333% of the Angels with him. There may have been a 5th planet that was destroyed by GOD as a result and the outfall of that also took out the civilization on Mars, removing its ocean and atmosphere by massive impacts, what we now think happened to Mars, and then this debri from a destroyed 5th planet became the asteroid belt.
We now know Mars was much more habitable in its distant past, with an ocean and perhaps an atmosphere. It certainly could have more likely had life on it then, if not even now (at least in microbial form). I think we are just barely able to make out some of the truth of all of this now. Seems pieces of the puzzle are coming together in a very big way.
Angels have freedom of choice or they couldn't turn against GOD.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 11, 2009 - 06:58pm PT
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So, from all this I gather the inability to come to any agreement on the basic storylines involved with the evolution of pagan myth into large numbers of modern biblical interpretations is what gives rise to phone book page after page of continuous denominal subspeciation.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 11, 2009 - 07:14pm PT
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subspeciation
What is this word and it's meaning?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 11, 2009 - 07:16pm PT
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People on SuperTopo are in a way subspeciated - we're human beings, and climbers, who rarely seem to agree about anything.
Edit: In biological terms, I think it means a species that is subdivided into groups with distinct characteristics, but which can still interbreed and produce fertile offspring. But I'm not a biologist.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 11, 2009 - 07:17pm PT
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Ok, that makes sense Anders.
Thanks
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 11, 2009 - 07:31pm PT
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close enough....
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 11, 2009 - 07:36pm PT
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You caught me there Healy, I meant to type Lucifer was NEVER told to prostrate before man.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 11, 2009 - 08:11pm PT
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"Christians, Catholics (correct me if I'm wrong) don't believe man and animals are the same, or that we are animals. This is evidenced most strongly in their rejection of evolution."
My last post was 4020 now it's 4110!
TripL7, Robb, and Bronwyn said some good things in their post!
I called my church, and asked if animals have souls?
I didn't get a complete answer but Tim said in Genesis 1:27...
***So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.***
In God's creation;
Day#3 dry land Earth, Seas, vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees
Day#4 “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth.”
Day#5 Fish and birds
Day #6 “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds—livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.”
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them
It progressed to Man!
"And the difference btw Lucifer and Satan is....?"
The Devil wanted to be God!
The Temptation of Jesus, in Matthew 4:
Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And after fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. And the tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.” But he answered, “It is written,
“‘Man shall not live by bread alone,
but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”
Then the devil took him to the holy city and set him on the pinnacle of the temple and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written,
“‘He will command his angels concerning you,’
and
“‘On their hands they will bear you up,
lest you strike your foot against a stone.’”
Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”
Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.” Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written,
“‘You shall worship the Lord your God
and him only shall you serve.’”
Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and were ministering to him.
Isaiah 11:6-9, The wolf shall dwell with the lamb,
and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together;
and a little child shall lead them.
7 The cow and the bear shall graze;
their young shall lie down together;
and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 The nursing child shall play over the hole of the cobra,
and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den.
9 They shall not hurt or destroy
in all my holy mountain;
for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea.
I'm on 8 hour shifts because of the rain, so I don't know when I can chime in!
Late, Gobee
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 11, 2009 - 08:25pm PT
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Here's the scoop on Healy's question. It's a Muslim story, not a Judeo-Christian one:
http://al-shairan.livejournal.com/
**In contrast with the Christian tradition, the Qur'an names Iblis as a jinn rather than an angel. The Jinn are one of three Intelligent races created by God, and are created from smokeless fire, and in the Islamic tradition are considered to have free will; in Islam, angels are seen as messengers who do not possess free will.
Iblis was given high regard, close to that of the angels by God, because he was at one point a pious and humble jinn. When God commanded all of the angels and Jinn to bow down before Adam (the first Human), Iblis, full of hubris, jealously refused to obey God's command (seeing Adam as being inferior in creation do to him being created from mud).
And We created you (humans), then fashioned you, then told the angels: Fall ye prostrate before Adam! And they fell prostrate, all save Iblis, who was not of those who made prostration. He (Allah) said: "What hindered thee that thou didst not fall prostrate when I bade thee?" (Iblis) said: "I am better than him. Thou createdst me of fire while him Thou didst create of mud". Qur'an 7:11-12
It was after this that he was given the title of "Shaitan" which can be roughly translated as "Evil" or "Devil". He then claims that if the punishment for his act of disobedience is to be delayed until the day of Judgment, he will divert many of Adam's own descendants from the strait path during his period of respite. God accepts the claims of Iblis and guarantees recompense to Iblis and his followers in the form of Hellfire. God, to test mankind and jinn alike, allowed Iblis to roam the earth to attempt to convert others away from Gods Path.
He was sent to earth along with Adam and Eve, after eventually luring them into eating the fruit from the forbidden tree.**
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 11, 2009 - 09:19pm PT
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According to Revelation, Satan and his followers are not currently in hell, they are currently active on Earth. Satan will not be thrown into the "Lake of Fire" until later in history, after the final battle between good and evil. Satan is not in hell yet, but he knows it is waiting and wants to corrupt and take as many people with him as he can.
Gobee, you said you called your church and spoke to Tim...is this Tim C of RLA?
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 11, 2009 - 10:54pm PT
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WELL!!
Fourteen+ hours ago I followed up a statement by healyje in regards to bacteria and some of its negative consequences. And followed with the suggestion that the fall of man had opened the door for evil to enter into their lives(Adam and Eve) and the world. Which God had given them dominion of "let them have dominion of the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, over the cattle, over all the earth..." Genesis 1:26.
After all, they had partaken of the tree of the knowledge of good AND EVIL!! They new good, ALL was good. And God had asked them one simple request, to NOT partake of .... And of course God knew what it would unleash. None of us can fathom the sadness that he must have felt. But He had to give mankind the option of who they would love/serve, believe and obey.
And they chose to believe a mere creature, a crafty one at that. For they were deceived by this snake "You shall be like the most high God...". Interesting claim that Satan lured Eve by, the very same claim that got him booted from the highest office of the angels of heaven "You were the seal of perfection. Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the Garden of God... You were the anointed cherub who covers"(Lucifer covered the throne of God/was given the honor of being the closest to God).
But that was not good enough(and I have left out much of what Lucifer was given control of, the other angels for one, they all looked up to Lucifer). But Lucfer wasn't satisfied with his position, and in his pride "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor". Lucifer said "I will be like the most high God" he determined to rise above and usurp God.
Adam relinquished his domain and Satan "became the ruler of this world". And he(Satan)obviously hates God and hates all mankind, since we are created in God's image.
Like I was beginning to say, I logged off around 4AM this morning, and after a long day, just logged back on an was surprised at all the commotion and questions that one simple suggestion would stir-up in the hearts and minds of intelligent men and women. That a mere created being(which Satan is)could create such hell(in reality, it isn't even close to what Hell will be like for Satan)here on earth.
The fact of the matter is, Satan loves to see God being blamed for what man initiated, when he gave Satan the authority to rule this world.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 11, 2009 - 11:03pm PT
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Ok here's a tough one?
If God asks you to kill your brother would you do it?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 11, 2009 - 11:09pm PT
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Human sacrifice?
You're skirting around the question ....
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 11, 2009 - 11:10pm PT
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bc- "Why does God allow Satan to exist?"
God created angels with the ability to reject(obviously)or to respect, love and serve their Creator, God. If God would have destroyed Satan, the angels would have served God out of fear not love. God, just like man created in His image, desires to be loved.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 11, 2009 - 11:39pm PT
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God would never say this.
Are you sure?
When advanced souls need to disappear from this earth, sometimes they kill each other to further bewilder those who reject that God exists.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 11, 2009 - 11:39pm PT
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We make all these projections and assumptions.
Everyone blames Judas for Jesus death but he was a beloved disciple chosen by Christ who allegedly knew and accepted that he was going to get killed. I'm confident Judas is forgiven.
The evolution of ideas of Satan in the bible are inconsistent. If one of God's highest angels can fall, then someday perhaps he will be forgiven and redeemed. God made him right? We all have made similar rebellions.
We can hope.
PEace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 11, 2009 - 11:53pm PT
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Skip writes
"God does not ask man to make war."
In the Old Testament it is said that God planned the war to grab the promised land from the folks who already had it. Of course, it could just be a convenient belief from the guys who wrote the books afterwards. The book says God commanded the Israelites to kill every man, woman and child in the cities they were conquering to have a homeland.
I trust Love more than the books
Peace
Karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:03am PT
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Werner!
What Skip was saying is that blood sacrifice is no longer required, the blood of an unblemished lamb. Abraham, being "the one called from the nations" had a very special and privileged position amongst mankind. He new God, and received Isaac as a miracle at 100 yrs. old(Sarah was 80). And God had spoken to him on many occasions. He new God and feared(was in awe of)God. He new the consequences of not following God(Ishmael was a consequence).
God new the outcome. And Abraham had faith that He would provide a nation "that numbered more than the stars..." from his loins, through Isaac. And could raise up Isaac from death.
This is a story/precursor of what God was going to do with His Son Jesus, at the very same spot that Jesus was in fact crucified.
So skipt was saying that God would never ask us to kill someone. And I have already failed to obey many simple request made of me by God(many of the ten commandments for instance)since I have become a Christian. So it would not come as a surprise to God if I fail Him again. Lets just say that I am no where near the faithful servant that Abraham, Moses or Job etc. were.
I doubt if I have any more insight then Skip or any other Christians posting here. Unfortunately much of my insight has come from a lack of insight/faith/obedience over the years. If I would have simply read proverbs/scripture etc and had faith that God had a perfect plan for me, I would have fared much better.
Men of Abraham's faith are far and few between!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:12am PT
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This exercise in scholasticism seems rather quaint... and has all the intellectual interest of watching hamsters run on their wheels...(karmic or otherwise)
In the end there is no resolution to how to interpret the Bible, or any other holy book, it is trying to infer some meaning out of the words and arguments of people long gone, writing in a context that would be difficult if not impossible to understand in our current world. The older parts of the bible date back to the 12 century BC.
These early texts are roughly around the time of the Buddha...
The Upanishads, dating back to the mid-first-millennium BCE... perhaps the same as Confucianism...
all ancient expressions of human belief that probably existed in some form early, but transmitted by other than written traditions.
All of these express an explanation for commonly held human experience, they are not the same explanation. But much of what is known is the product of a great deal of thinking on the part of people. What is most interesting is that all of these are essentially forms of "revealed wisdom" received by revelation from the godhead.
Believe what you want.... that is certainly your right... and while there is much wisdom in these writings capturing the legacy of human experience, arguing angelology is truly medieval, and to my mind a bizarre distraction from the important lessons that these religions propagate from the earliest of human times.
I reject the argument that the validity of these religious texts depends on their being true in their entirety. That point of view seems so completely strange to me... perhaps if you are seeking absolute truth, but that cannot be known in life with any assurance (I know many will disagree).
What is it about our need to explain things that leads to the creation of the multiplicity of parallel worlds whose inhabitants poses the supernatural powers to determine our existence and fate eternally?
It almost seems harmless enough until two opposing ideas of truth come in conflict... with the belief that one's view of eternity is The Truth, what stops the followers from seeking their eternal reward. As they say, all hell breaks loose.
To those who know The Truth, there is no reason to question it...
perhaps the real question is then: why do we need "The Truth"?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:16am PT
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Why do we need "The Truth"?
Today I free soloed Phoenix, and found it fairly easy.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:20am PT
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did you get wet?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:21am PT
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You get the idea and I get yours.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:25am PT
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my, my, haven't our discussions become abbreviated, I like the economy of it...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:27am PT
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Speaking of forgiveness. I'm sure that I've said something or another to offend believer or scientist alike on this thread. We tread on our cherished believes and perspectives.
I'd like to apologize for any offense or hurt I've caused. I wish everyone the Love and Inspiration that carries them closer to the truth (which only God or Nobody knows) and that they have a epic wondrous journey on that path
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:28am PT
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perhaps if you are seeking absolute truth, but that cannot be known in life with any assurance
You just made your own absolute.
So you are greater than material nature?
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MH2
climber
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:34am PT
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So can a Christian answer this - Did God create Satan?
A simple yes or no will suffice.
Maybe a non-Christian can, too, since God is supposed to have created thinking beings with free will, or the ability to choose between good and evil, because to do otherwise would have been counter to his supposed ethic of autonomy, and resulted in a world devoid of strife, where the concept of good would be meaningless as there was no evil to contrast it with.
So God in his wisdom gave us ST to bicker on.
Satan chose evil better than most.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:38am PT
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poor choice of words, perhaps... but you're right that it is stated as an absolute... a great deal of what religion is about is what happens in death... how do we know? different religions treat this differently... and some religions have us recycling through life again....
What am I? material, and the material I have created...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:50am PT
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I'm with Ed in being amazed that medieval scholasticism is so alive and well in 21st century America. However, it seems a bit of chronology is in order.
Buddha, Confucius, Socrates and Zoroaster all existed about 500 B.C. Why great philosophers should arise in different parts of the world is an unsolved and ever interesting question.
While some of their ideas were much older, especially if borrowed from Hinduism and Taoism in the East and the Jewish, Sumerian, Persian, and Egyptian traditions in the West, the major scriptures of the world were still mostly written in the 500 B.C. to 300 A.D. time frame. Islam of course came later, in the late 600's A.D.
That's still a long time ago and far removed from modern life.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:50am PT
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Warbler- "Do Christians fear Satan, or only God?"
Good questions Kevin!
"You shall fear only the Lord your God" Deuteronomy 6:13(NASV).
"Fear not, for I am with you always says the Lord". And there are many more similar verses.
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell for ever." Matthew 10:28.
"My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes I say to you, fear Him." Luke 12:4. Good advice from Jesus Christ!
God has no fear of Satan. He created him and new the outcome! Jesus already crushed Satan at the cross. Satan has been defeated.
Kevin- "Does He have any other characteristics of men?"
I was speaking of one attribute of God Love.
And yes there are other characteristics which we share along with to be loved, such as trust. He is Spirit and He gave us a soul/spirit when He breathed life into man. He can be grieved. And He certainly has a sense of humor, that many of us can attest to. He loves music, and being worshipped through music(King David was a musician). Those are just a few that come to mind and there are many others.
When He came to earth He experienced all the emotions/feelings/hurt and pain that we go through without sin(such as anger). One reason He did this was so we could relate to Him knowing that He has experienced, first hand all that we have. And He does love and consider all of us His children.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 12, 2009 - 01:00am PT
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On the science side, I just received an announcement that the Obama administration is asking for public input on how much federally funded research should be put online. I know my anthropology classes and I have benefitted a lot from the free abstracts and papers available on DNA research available through the National Institute of Health.
Policy Forum on Public Access to Federally Funded Research: Implementation
http://www.whitehouse.gov/open
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 12, 2009 - 01:03am PT
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Karl!
I can only think of it as an honor to have gotten to know you a little here and have learned alot from you! Also enjoy your TR's and photography and stories. Hope you continue to do so, and thanks for putting up with me!
Peace and Love, Trip~
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 12, 2009 - 01:22am PT
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Karl- "perhaps one day he can be forgiven and redeemed".
That brings to mind a close friend asking me once "Why doesn't God just forgive Satan and everything will be OK?"
Well, Satan doesn't want to be forgiven, he wants to be God.
Satan is evil incarnate. God and Satan could never exist together! A closet(with the door closed)can be either light or dark, not both at the same time.
He would not ever be happy being anything but worshipped as number 1. And destroying everything that God has created. In his insanity/pride he felt he could pull it off. And has had a fair amount of success in destroying/deceiving much of the creation. In his anger/bitterness, he wants to destroy all he can while there is still time.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Dec 12, 2009 - 01:29am PT
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So bizarre to me.
It's like you're having a serious conversation about the nature of Santa's reindeer.
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Dec 12, 2009 - 01:32am PT
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In my opinion, man should worry more about his own sinful nature that Satan "affecting him."
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 12, 2009 - 01:46am PT
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Karl,
I too always welcome your thoughts and insights and find them quite interesting and thought-provoking.
I agree with you that Judas was forgiven.
And Warbler, the answer is NO, Christians do not fear Satan. We can see how he operates, we can be aware of his schemes, but no, we don't fear him.
(Sorry...I guess the one-word answer you requested just looked a little terse on-screen!)
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Dec 12, 2009 - 01:47am PT
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hey there say all... wow, i never get in here, or maybe once? ... but it is so HUGE-grown-a-thread, that i had to come see how all this is going...
well, got to run... i am in the midst of some projects and am STILL trying to go see all the trip reports...
wow, i am running wayyyyyyyyyyy behind, here at ol' supertopo...
well, have it all, you all... i will come take a visit, again, much much later...
god bless... :)
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Dec 12, 2009 - 01:50am PT
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Ed, just watching that video now....
I like how he says we each think we are experts on our own consciousness.
"each of us thinks ...."I am an expert."
I wonder why that is?
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 12, 2009 - 02:08am PT
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micronut- "in my opinion man should worry about his own sinful nature than Satan "affecting him".
I agree 100%.
The original post and my response to it(4am) was in regards to "bacteria" and the introduction of evil into the world...etc. And continued well after my post(I then logged off at 4am) and did not log back on until after 8pm this evening.
Satan(his demonic angels) can not "make" anyone do anything. He works through thoughts/suggestions that can result in bitterness, anger etc. If we are so disposed and choose to act/follow them they can result in evil consequences. So the devil rarely makes people do anything, we have the choice to act or not on those impulses.
But as micronut suggests, we have our own sinful nature(anger, bitterness, greed, envy, slander, gluttony,strife, despair, hate,selfishness, racism)etc,etc. That is the cause for much of what is wrong with the world today.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 12, 2009 - 02:53am PT
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Warbler- "Is that because God could force their soul to spend eternity with Satan?"
I became a Christian at eight, and it had nothing to do with being forced to spend eternity with Satan. As a matter of fact my life was about to end within minutes, and I called out to Jesus to help me.
We do not fear God in the way you would fear, lets say, the godfather if you were a lieutenant or soldier in the mafia. As a matter of fact the word fear in the context of the quotes I gave you up-thread are closer to the meaning of holding Him in awe/reverence/respect. And have been defined as so by those who have translated the Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic text of the word.
Also, as I am sure you have heard, you cannot lose your salvation, and therefore would not be a rational reason to fear God.
Although disobedience does have its consequences. But you should obey God out of love not fear.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 12, 2009 - 03:10am PT
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At twelve I completely rejected the notion of god after reversing the logic of 'man was made in god's image'. I vividly remember thinking that if I'm made in god's image, then just how the f*#k is it that I wouldn't have done life on earth even remotely the way he did. I had a lot of doubts before that day, but that cemented a total rejection of the whole notion of a conscience god.
Ever since I have had absolutely no respect for the game board (christian) and gerbil wheel (hindu) explanations for life because they are implausibly cruel and inhuman. If an all-powerful sentient god existed - then there could be no acceptable excuse, rationale, or justification for this life. And in particular, I find the 'good & evil' / 'free will' argument such an infantile and affronting insult to decency, logic, and common sense as to almost preclude the very concept of empathy.
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MH2
climber
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Dec 12, 2009 - 04:01am PT
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I find the 'good & evil' / 'free will' argument such an infantile and affronting insult to decency, logic, and common sense as to almost preclude the very concept of empathy.
That's quite interesting and the sort of viewpoint that makes me interested in this thread. I think I see what you mean but am not sure. Your rejection of God seemed to hinge on the fact that our world does not show enough evidence of a compassionate or empathetic creator. However, God may not be of a benevolent disposition, or could be benevolent but still have good reason not to intervene in affairs of this world.
Although the free will 'argument' seems as though it could account for Man's inhumanity to Man, the occurrence of natural disasters like hurricanes is pretty good evidence that any God out there doesn't care that much about the fates of individual humans.
I'd be interested if you could say a little more about why attributing the existence of good and evil to free will is an affront to decency and common sense.
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MH2
climber
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Dec 12, 2009 - 04:21am PT
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Thanks, Ed, for the Dennet video.
He is good at exposition but I think he should have acknowledged that a lot of sensory processing gets done before the stage at which you notice changes in scenes, and it would help to know as much as possible about that processing before making detailed inferences about "consciousness" based on responses of the sort shown in the video. Any neurophysiologist working on vision should be well aware that vision seems simple to us, as we are experts in Dennet's terms, whereas in fact vision is damned complicated and still poorly understood. If we don't have a good understanding of how the brain uses binocular disparity and other cues to estimate distance, is it likely we can understand consciousness?
I would be very interested to hear what questions the top-down approach has answered. It's better role is probably to frame questions.
Raymond Smullyan: another philosopher/magician
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 12, 2009 - 04:40am PT
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HealyJ wrote
"...Ever since I have had absolutely no respect for the game board (christian) and gerbil wheel (hindu) explanations for life because they are implausibly cruel and inhuman. If an all-powerful sentient god existed - then there could be no acceptable excuse, rationale, or justification for this life..."
Don't you embrace an even harder, more painful, more dangerous life when you choose to go climbing. Maybe the intensity makes your feel yourself more keenly and teaches you something eh?
Face it, we can't see any big picture clearly enough to suppose the meaning of life arising from God's intent
Just as hard to image the scope of the universe and eternity even without any God. Our minds are blown once we get too far from our familiar environment
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 12, 2009 - 04:54am PT
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777 wrote
"Well, Satan doesn't want to be forgiven, he wants to be God.
Satan is evil incarnate. God and Satan could never exist together! A closet(with the door closed)can be either light or dark, not both at the same time.
He would not ever be happy being anything but worshipped as number 1. And destroying everything that God has created. In his insanity/pride he felt he could pull it off. And has had a fair amount of success in destroying/deceiving much of the creation. In his anger/bitterness, he wants to destroy all he can while there is still time."
This feels like a lot of Sunday school fire and brimstone superstition without much depth of scripture to back it up. God created this "Satan" according to you and he was a high angel but somehow changed and rebelled. If Satan can change thus, how are you to know he can't change back? You are saying God created him to be irrevocably evil? How would he be responsible then? It's been 2000-3000 years.
Believe that redemption is possible for all and you can have faith in it for yourself.
I don't know what to "believe" about the origin of this particular world but it's a wide open question. There is a couple schools of thought that say that our existence on this world was engineered by other more advanced beings that fall far short of being the ultimate creator. It's been a shakey experiment that's been allowed to happen just as human are "allowed" to build Zoos and breed animals in them. What that tells me is that we can't jump to assumptions about why this world seems a harsh dense reality.
Not saying I believe this but it's funny how something so simple could explain so much.
Here's my personal experience...What comes to me in life is a perfect reflection of emotions, attitudes and energy inside myself. When I change myself, everything changes around me. By navigating my own inner change with the world bringing me feedback and lessons, I feel like I'm in a hall of mirrors where what I'm seeing are aspects of myself. Since I worked through a lot of my own crap, life has got better and I'm happy in my heart, even as tough challenges seem to threaten important aspects of my life, I have faith that I'll find the answers within and move through it, just like I feel like some crack a few pitches up will take me to the top.
Thus speaking, the world seems like this no-holds-barred university of Life where our inner stuff visits us in outer events. Most people are just too defensive and not introspective enough to see that their life really does reflect the totality they hold within.
Peace
Karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 12, 2009 - 05:56am PT
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I'd be interested if you could say a little more about why attributing the existence of good and evil to free will is an affront to decency and common sense.
I'd certainly be open to the suggestion that good & evil are a prerequisite to free will right after someone explains to me how the admittedly agonizing choice between the Bacon-Waffle Special and a Denver Omlette robs me of free will. I find the very suggestion that evil is somehow necessary to free will to be an indecent and corrupt proposition. I further find all attempts to shunt the ultimate responsibility for evil from a sentient, all-powerful god to be logically contrived and hopelessly delusional from the start. It simply withers in the face of common sense.
Don't you embrace an even harder, more painful, more dangerous life when you choose to go climbing.
Not at all, I embrace a much easier, more thoroughly enjoyable, and far safer life than before I climbed. Before climbing I was unaware bordering on subclinicly autistic, painfully shy, and had no measure of life's threats or risks.
Face it, we can't see any big picture clearly enough to suppose the meaning of life arising from God's intent
I have no requirement that life arose from anything but the probability of a random event. Why should intent have anything to do with it? I mean, what is the intent of a Avsunviroid or a Blue Whale - and why would I require intent to exist?
Just as hard to image the scope of the universe and eternity even without any God. Our minds are blown once we get too far from our familiar environment
You're projecting. I have no problem at all imaging the scope of the universe and eternity without god. And my mind isn't blown by the wonder of the unknown - it thrives on it - it's why I do FAs. Quite the contrary, what blows my mind is the out-of-the-park fantasies that the masses generate in the attempt to quell the waves of fear and doubt unanswered and unanswerable questions send roiling through most individuals and societies.
I say embrace the cold, infinite, unknowable abyss on its own terms without all the childish anthropomorphizing. Also, take a few genetics, microbiology, virology, mycology, and pathology classes and you'll see the world from a drastically different perspective and realize symbiotic viruses, fungi, and bacteria had and have as much or more to do with being human as any god. That being 'human' means we exist as a symbiotic composite of thousands of species working together as one. So if we are made in god's image, that would make him a highly composite entity as well.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 12, 2009 - 07:43am PT
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Karl- "this feels alot like Sunday school fire and brimstone without much depth. God created this Satan according to you...but somehow changed and rebelled...if Satan can change thus, perhaps he can change back."
Not "according to" me Karl, according to the Bible!!
And sure, we can dream up the possibility of any scenario we would like, or not like for that matter. But I am going by what I believe is the Word of God. Not something I heard in Sunday school or anywhere else. I personally read it in the Bible.
Jesus states that Satan will be chained in the Lake of Fire for ever. He knows the final outcome, and states it as so. So I am reassured that Satan will at that point never again be given the opportunity to deceive mankind again.
Lucifer was an an angel, created by God. He rebelled and took one third of the angels with him(actually they chose to follow him). They were given the ability to obey God or to refuse. Just as we are. He chose to rebel...plain and simple.
For those who will spend eternity in Heaven, that will be a welcomed truth.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 12, 2009 - 10:47am PT
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healyje, Well said. Your story and thoughts are similar to my own.
Ed, thanks fo the Dennett link. I always enjoy listening to him.
Still no answers to one of my original question - If god is all knowing, did he not see this coming or was the fall a complete surprise to him? It looks to me he simply let it happen. If it was a surprise, he is not all knowing. Which is it?
If he knew, he sure has allowed an unpadonable amount of pain to be inflictedon the world. He has control of the dials. Why not turn down the hurt. Create a world free of murder and war, fewer and less intense crop failures, or maybe less lethal diseases? The guy appears to be a real sadist.
If he didn't know, he's not all knowing.
This thread has broken down into too much counting of how many angels can fit on the tip of a needle.
Long live Ardi!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 12, 2009 - 11:37am PT
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 11:51am PT
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Now what if "free will" isn't really what we think it is.... our ideas of how consciousness works, and our conception of free will may just be a misunderstanding.
What evidence do we have of free will?
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 12, 2009 - 11:51am PT
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Actually, bc, God is not "in control of the dial" of planet Earth. After creation, He never was...He turned that control over to humans. He created it in perfection, without war, disease, death, etc. WE then turned that control over to Satan, and he introduced decay, death, etc. Satan is in control of the dial, and he is the cause of all the wars, famine, disease, etc.
Romans 8:20:"For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it. (Satan)"
As for did God know...of course He did. Why did He do it anyway? HOPE.
Let's say you are considering becoming a parent. Do you think about the intense physical agony your wife will endure during childbirth? Do you think about the stab of fear that will penetrate your heart when the child goes to school for the first time, is late for dinner, asks to borrow the car, goes away to college? Do you dwell on the fact that children often don't turn out the way we expected, that they cause us incredible emotional pain, financial strain, or can have something terrible happen to them?
NO, you think about the joy of creating a new life out of the union of yourself and your spouse, about the feeling you will have the first time you hold that tiny baby and look into his eyes. You think about the feelings of awe and pride you will have when you watch your child pick flowers, learn to climb, learn to experience life. Do you expect some agonies, some disappointments? Of course. Do you know that your child will experience suffering in this life? Of course you do. Do you decide not to have a child because you don't want to cause them suffering?
In the midst of all the ills of the world, God gave us a way to hope...He gave us Himself. He gives us Himself and He gives us perspective on the ills of the world.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:07pm PT
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As for did God know...of course He did. Why did He do it anyway? HOPE.
Knowing Satan and all the accompanying evils would commence, he knew.
He did it for "hope". What a dick.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:10pm PT
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Actually, bc, God is not "in control of the dial" of planet Earth. After creation, He never was...He turned that control over to humans.
So why bother praying?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:17pm PT
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Heh heh heh good one bc
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:23pm PT
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You don't read very well do ya Skip?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:26pm PT
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That's exactly what I saw too.
Skip, you're gonna bury yourself with that kind of answer.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:58pm PT
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control and helping when asked are not the same thing.) So he doesn't control things, but may or may not be there when asked? If he actually helps when asked, his record is pretty poor.
All I was asking was, if god created everything, why couldn't he have created a little less destructive reality? Especially since he saw it coming. A little more stable earth, less destructive disease, etc.
And if he really just started the ball rolling and is not involved in the day to day suffering of the people he created (as Bronwyn's post suggests), why pray if he will not be there to help?
I'll post this again because I think it applies.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
— Epicurus
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 02:12pm PT
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What evidence do we have of free will?
Isn't that the same as all of our evidence - our shared perceptions?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 02:24pm PT
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perception is not evidence... we perceive all sorts of things that are not real.
It is possible that we have a large, but countable number of choices, and if these are able to be combined in different situations, it would seem a very large number of choices gives the illusion of an infinite number of choices. So what if what we perceive as free will is really only this combinatorics of a limited set of choices applied to various situations.
It wouldn't be Free Will, but it would be close enough to satisfy our need to believe we have choice. It would not be the gift spoken of above, the ineffable quality... but rather the result of an evolutionary process built up over a large time period.
Doesn't that make more sense?
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 02:36pm PT
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Yes, I do perceive that we're finite beings. But isn't the basis of science that we can repeat an experiment and perceive the same results?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 02:40pm PT
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generally we would require an objective measure, some quantification, rather than a subjective measure... this is where it gets really complicated, but not impossible... studying cognitive processes quantitatively has been going on for a while.
so your subjective experience is only the very beginning of understanding... and perhaps the universal perceptions the first indication that we have only a limited set of choices... what is a "universal sense of the spiritual" may prove only to be the limitations of our set of choices.
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 02:50pm PT
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How do we measure an objective difference? With our perceptions?
Do you mean that there are a finite set of choices, or is it a different flavor of infinite - like the difference between the unconstrained infinite number of real numbers between 0 and infinity, and the constrained infinite number of real numbers between 0 and 1?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 02:54pm PT
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simple things, really...
Q: when you look at a brick wall which fills your entire visual field, what do you see?
A: a continuous set of bricks
Q: you have visual blind spots in your eyes, so you actually can not see all the bricks, why then do you perceive them as continuous?
A:
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jstan
climber
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Dec 12, 2009 - 03:15pm PT
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http://www.theflickingfingers.com/bl_spot.html
Interesting reading on visual perception.
For instance the eye movements that go into recognizing a human face are plotted.
A substantial part of the energy budget for a resting human go into operation of the visual system.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 12, 2009 - 03:16pm PT
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Pretty damn good Rocky.
So destiny can not be changed without God.
Only he can guide and point the worm to the correct path at the crossroad.
Remember that movie about Robert Johnson (crude example) ....
edit. The discussion is so much better now instead of those retarded stupid posts like "Jesus saves at Bank of America" type liners for example.
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 03:25pm PT
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Great question Ed. We want to be able to tell whether it's because the wall actually is continuous (we perceive truth), or because we perceive it as continuous (we perceive our perceptions), but we don't have enough information to tell the difference.
That sounds about right Rokjox. Sometimes I think we have the same free will as a water molecule in a cloud, which can chose to fall as rain, or as snow, or drift off as water vapor, or stay in the cloud. It doesn't seem like it choses, but maybe it does. It's choosing to rain right now - my 2 year old is choosing to play in it!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 04:01pm PT
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the answer is we ignore the missing pieces in our perception...
What we perceive is a model of the wall, built on the expectation that it is continuous, which is a combination of what we are sensing and what we have experienced. The brain doesn't waste anytime worrying about something that isn't there in this case. But since you might have to perform an action that requires knowledge of the wall, your internal model of the wall serves as a way of planning the action.
Could be that our internal model is very wrong, and then the action would be inappropriate.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 12, 2009 - 04:09pm PT
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Rokjox said After all, how can you really have much of a choice if your path is completely unseeable by you? Flip a coin, the future's not OURS to see.
So our path is all laid out behind us. Great, we're snails.
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 04:18pm PT
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I agree - that's part of the answer that we perceive. We don't let the belief that we have incomplete information stop us from believing that we have knowledge, in any domain.
Do we perceive the model in our brain or do we perceive the wall in front of us?
Ignoring the missing information is part of the way that we accurately perceive the truth?
Thanks for your thoughts.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 12, 2009 - 04:26pm PT
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"Everyone blames Judas for Jesus death but he was a beloved disciple chosen by Christ..."
Yes, but Judas was with Jesus and saw all His miracles, lived with Him and hearing Him speak, still Judas could betray Him.
Jesus offers us all forgiveness and would forgive Judas as well. But Judas would have to come to Jesus and ask for forgiveness!
Luke 23:34, And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.1) By John MacArthur
John 12:3-8, Mary therefore took a pound of expensive ointment made from pure nard, and anointed the feet of Jesus and wiped his feet with her hair. The house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume. 4 But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples (he who was about to betray him), said, 5 “Why was this ointment not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?” 6 He said this, not because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief, and having charge of the moneybag he used to help himself to what was put into it. 7 Jesus said, “Leave her alone, so that she may keep it for the day of my burial. 8 For the poor you always have with you, but you do not always have me.”
One of You Will Betray Me
John 13:21 After saying these things, Jesus was troubled in his spirit, and testified, “Truly, truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me.” 22 The disciples looked at one another, uncertain of whom he spoke. 23 One of his disciples, whom Jesus loved, was reclining at table close to Jesus, 24 so Simon Peter motioned to him to ask Jesus of whom he was speaking. 25 So that disciple, leaning back against Jesus, said to him, “Lord, who is it?” 26 Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I will give this morsel of bread when I have dipped it.” So when he had dipped the morsel, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. 27 Then after he had taken the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, “What you are going to do, do quickly.” 28 Now no one at the table knew why he said this to him. 29 Some thought that, because Judas had the moneybag, Jesus was telling him, “Buy what we need for the feast,” or that he should give something to the poor. 30 So, after receiving the morsel of bread, he immediately went out. And it was night.
Betrayal and Arrest of Jesus
Mark 14:43-50, And immediately, while he was still speaking, Judas came, one of the twelve, and with him a crowd with swords and clubs, from the chief priests and the scribes and the elders. 44 Now the betrayer had given them a sign, saying, “The one I will kiss is the man. Seize him and lead him away under guard.” 45 And when he came, he went up to him at once and said, “Rabbi!” And he kissed him. 46 And they laid hands on him and seized him. 47 But one of those who stood by drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest and cut off his ear. 48 And Jesus said to them, “Have you come out as against a robber, with swords and clubs to capture me? 49 Day after day I was with you in the temple teaching, and you did not seize me. But let the Scriptures be fulfilled.” 50 And they all left him and fled.
Judas to Betray Jesus
Matthew 26:14-16, Then one of the twelve, whose name was Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests 15 and said, “What will you give me if I deliver him over to you?” And they paid him thirty pieces of silver. 16 And from that moment he sought an opportunity i to betray him.
20 When it was evening, he reclined at table with the twelve. 21 And as they were eating, he said, “Truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me.” 22 And they were very sorrowful and began to say to him one after another, “Is it I, Lord?” 23 He answered, “He who has dipped his hand in the dish with me will betray me. 24 The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” 25 Judas, who would betray him, answered, “Is it I, Rabbi?” He said to him, “You have said so.”
Betrayal and Arrest of Jesus
47 While he was still speaking, Judas came, one of the twelve, and with him a great crowd with swords and clubs, from the chief priests and the elders of the people. 48 Now the betrayer had given them a sign, saying, “The one I will kiss is the man; seize him.” 49 And he came up to Jesus at once and said, “Greetings, Rabbi!” And he kissed him. 50 Jesus said to him, “Friend, do what you came to do.” Then they came up and laid hands on Jesus and seized him. 51 And behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest and cut off his ear. 52 Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. 53 Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?” 55 At that hour Jesus said to the crowds, “Have you come out as against a robber, with swords and clubs to capture me? Day after day I sat in the temple teaching, and you did not seize me. 56 But all this has taken place that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.” Then all the disciples left him and fled.
Judas Hangs Himself
3 Then when Judas, his betrayer, saw that Jesus was condemned, he changed his mind and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders, 4 saying, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.” They said, “What is that to us? See to it yourself.” 5 And throwing down the pieces of silver into the temple, he departed, and he went and hanged himself. 6 But the chief priests, taking the pieces of silver, said, “It is not lawful to put them into the treasury, since it is blood money.” 7 So they took counsel and bought with them the potter's field as a burial place for strangers. 8 Therefore that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9 Then was fulfilled what had been spoken by the prophet Jeremiah, saying, “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him on whom a price had been set by some of the sons of Israel, 10 and they gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord directed me.”
Matthias Chosen to Replace Judas
Acts 1:12-26, Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away. 13 And when they had entered, they went up to the upper room, where they were staying, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot and Judas the son of James. 14 All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers.
15 In those days Peter stood up among the brothers (the company of persons was in all about 120) and said, 16 “Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17 For he was numbered among us and was allotted his share in this ministry.” 18 (Now this man acquired a field with the reward of his wickedness, and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. 19 And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their own language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) 20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms,
**“‘May his camp become desolate,
and let there be no one to dwell in it’;
and
“‘Let another take his office.’**
21 So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.” 23 And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also called Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen 25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” 26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 12, 2009 - 05:11pm PT
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777
"Not "according to" me Karl, according to the Bible!! "
I'm saying your certainty about the details of Satan are not supported by details in the Bible, particularly if you throw out the book of Revelation, which you should, because it's NEVER clear and people are always lawyering wrong conclusions from it.
"Jesus states that Satan will be chained in the Lake of Fire for ever. He knows the final outcome, and states it as so. So I am reassured that Satan will at that point never again be given the opportunity to deceive mankind again."
Jesus said it, or you read it in Revelation? Funny how people talk on and on about free will and then postulate that everything is known in advance. Apparently God created Lucifer to be a top angel knowing he would rebel, create all this Hell, and never get saved. Who is worse in that scenario?
Lose your certainties. A careful reading of the Bible shows that Jesus and the apostles and Paul's crowd as well firmly believed and predicted that the kingdom of God was coming during their lifetimes. Times change.
peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 12, 2009 - 06:41pm PT
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When it comes to changing worldviews, the scientists, alongside vested government, industry, media and intellectual discourse can become the guardians to the gates of outmoded thinking.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 07:03pm PT
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Cold fusion, Werner?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 12, 2009 - 07:33pm PT
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Finally got a chance to view Ed's TED link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjbWr3ODbAo
While I think it's great for folks to recognize the limits of our sense perception and understand the way our brain constructs and fills in information where it is suggested or implied, I have a hard time believing anybody considers this new information or believes it explains much about consciousness.
Senses and they way the mind interprets sense information is a very external manifestation of Awareness. Shut off every sense you are still conscious no? Senses are also limited within frequencies of light and sound, etc.
Thousands of years ago yogis were well aware of this stuff. The world is not as we see it. Something looks like a snake until someone explains that it's just a rope. Then we see the rope.
The school of thought that wants to maintain all our human Beingness is a side-effect of Neurons firing just haven't gone deep enough.
Sure, you can take circuits out of a TV set and prove a certain part of the TV controls the sound and another makes up the picture and that the image can be tweeked by the knobs and such. That proves nothing about the electromagnetic waves that the TV picks up to translate into images and sound. That doesn't show that those waves are everywhere, nor does it show about the parts of the electromagnetic spectrum that TVs can't be tuned to. When it comes to consciousness, we don't have equipment that fine yet.
Consciousness in the spiritual sense is like that. Pure consciousness is never the object of perception because it is eternally the subject, awareness itself, that witnesses all. Some would say consciousness becomes the mind by assuming the "shape" of the object perceived, but that form is not the thing itself.
Even Jesus says nobody can see God at any time. Why? The divine is the innermost thing, not some old codger in the sky. Sure people process everything with their brains. Perhaps that's how some people have had big inspirations and yet tainted it with their own foolishness.
PEace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 12, 2009 - 07:37pm PT
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monolith -- "Cold fusion, Werner?"
Actually infinite energy. You're sharp.
But!
How did this get in here????
Since there's no consciousness, no free will, no God, and just random chemicals swirling around in my head, it must have just accidentally big banged itself in here ......
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 07:53pm PT
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that's one explanation, Werner...
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 12, 2009 - 08:14pm PT
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Karl- "throw out the book of Revelation".
Throw out "The Revelation of Jesus Christ"(which is the title, "Revelations" is an abbreviation). Because YOU don't understand it? And it condemns Satan to the Lake of Fire forever and ever? And it doesn't give your little buddy Satan a second chance of being saved? How convenient.
And lets see, you also would like to throw out about half of the remaining New Testament starting with Acts(The Acts of the Apostles)through Revelation! And how about the Old Testament? How about The Book of Daniel? Or Ezekiel? Or any of the other prophecy books because you don't understand them!
To begin with, angels do not have souls. They were not created in Gods image(certain moral, ethical and intellectual abilities). We were meant to reflect His majesty on earth, to "have dominion" rule as God's regent! That is, people are to rule as God would-wisely and prudently-over all that God has made(fish, birds, cattle and so on).
He breathed life into man, describes the infusion of the human spirit with its moral, intellectual, relational and spiritual capacities(along with an immortal soul). The breadth of life makes humans distinct from all other creatures(including angels).
Lucifer and all the other angels were created to worship and serve God. They know God and are already in Heaven in His presence. They do so out of love for Him. Satan lost that privilege and was cast out of the presents of God.
Man was created "for a little while lower than the angels"(obviously in power and physical closeness to God).
The early Cristian church went through some very trying times(persecution)and were reprimanded by Peter for anticipating an immediate return of the Lord "Dear friends don't ignore this fact, One day with the Lord is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day. The Lord isn't slow to do what He promised as some people think. Rather He is patient for your sake. He doesn't want to destroy anyone but wants all people to have an opportunity to turn to Him and change the way they think and act." 2 Peter 3:8-9.
Jesus never said that He was going to return immediately, on the contrary "Nobody knows the time or the hour, only the Father..." etc.
He stated that the temple would be torn . And that it would be rebuilt and the "Abomination of Desolation" would take place in a rebuilt temple. That being the antichrist demanding to be worshipped there. Jesus quoted Daniel's prophecy! Declaring it as a fact that it would eventually occur. As with the Jews being scattered throughout the world, and returning to Israel. After two thousand years!
I would pay close attention to another prophecy made over two thousand years ago. That Iran(Persia changed its name to Iran in @1937)and Russia would form an alliance and attack Israel. This will be the next major war which will usher in the beginning of the Tribulation(seven year period).
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 12, 2009 - 08:30pm PT
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Karl!
Who do you believe Jesus Christ is? Let me remind you that the "Christ" is a title. Both Christ and Messiah mean "The Anointed One" Obviously you do not consider Him to be God.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 12, 2009 - 09:07pm PT
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All these discussions on various interpretations...
What makes you think whole of the various bibles (and apocrypha), the Qur’an, Vedas, and Sutras aren't all just anthropomorphic responses to the fear of the unknown. A quick look back through recorded time should tell you that rather than man being created in god's image, it is instead a very long list of gods we have created in our image throughout history. And how can one but marvel at the revelling conceit involved with one society after another throughout human history claiming only their god or gods are real.
Again, if you view life on Earth at any point in its history as simply a collection of the current expressions of a global gene pool then you realize that we humans, while a marvelous expression, are just that - an optimal expression of DNA for recent planetary conditions. 'Recent' being the key as Homo Sapiens have barely been around long enough to spit. And as just one of millions of current expressions of DNA on the planet today, I find the very idea of an anthropomorphized god or gods both childish and amusing in the extreme.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 12, 2009 - 09:25pm PT
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"To begin with, angels do not have souls."
TripL7, I agree the book of Revelation is important, (although, in my opinion, wildly misinterpreted)
By what reasoning do you conclude Angels do not have souls ? Do you base this assumption on scripture? What is a soul ?
Hebrews 1:14 Are not all angels souls that serve Him--whom He sends out to render service for the benefit of those who will inherit salvation?
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 12, 2009 - 09:36pm PT
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Jennie!
It reads..."Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister to those who will inherit salvation?"
It says nothing about them having a soul!
They are spirits!
We are body soul and spirit.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 12, 2009 - 09:40pm PT
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OK You're using a different translation than I.
How does soul essence differ from from spirit essence?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 12, 2009 - 09:50pm PT
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They should just worship healyje as god.
He's got all those big ass fancy words that explain everything.
Yep
He'll make a good one.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 12, 2009 - 10:06pm PT
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Yes, exactly, but one can't have a "personal relationship" with such a generalized concept.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 12, 2009 - 10:15pm PT
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Kevin
I'm scared to death leading your climbs on middle.
I will now worship you .......
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 12, 2009 - 10:29pm PT
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Jennie!
1 Thessalonians 5:23 reads "And may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole body, soul and spirit be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
The ordinary concept of the human being is dualistic-body and soul and is of fallen man not God and inaccurate. That the body(the corporal) is the outer sheath is correct. But the Bible never confuses spirit and soul as being the same!
It is of supreme importance to know the difference, the spirit of man is that which is capable of uniting with and communicating with the Spirit of God(Holy Spirit).
Hebrews 4:12 divides mans non corporeal into two parts "For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."
"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God..." Romans 8:16.
Through the corporal body we come into contact with the material world, giving us world consciousness. The soul comprises the intellect which aids us in the present state of existence, and the emotions, which proceed from the senses.
The soul reveals mans own self or personality, self-conscious.
The spirit is the part that comunes with God and by which alone we are able to apprehend and worship Him. It is the element of God-consciousness.
God dwells in the spirit. Self dwells in the soul. And the senses dwell in the body.
The soul is the merging point between spirit and body.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 12, 2009 - 10:45pm PT
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The whole of human history and achievement would seem to just be an attempt by us to develop a greater range of choices than we were presented with as an animal. But that is still a really small subset of what GOD has.
Thanks Rokjox! That's one of the more quotable quotes I've seen on this thread.
How can God hold us to blame if we can only take a path he set up?
Within every path, preordained or not, there are choices. Of course these choices involve human behavior, or morality to use the old fashioned word, which has not been much discussed on this thread.
The quibble I have with religious people is that they tend to get hung up on specifics for every situation and decision, instead of going by a general law of love and compassion.
The problem I have with the atheist crew is that they maintain they are as moral or more than religious people which is certainly true in the first generation which was raised with a religion that was rejected.
What we don't know is the societal effect of subsequent generations raised without ideas of accountability. Experiments with scientific atheism in the Soviet Union and Maoist China do not give much comfort along these lines.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 12, 2009 - 11:16pm PT
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I don't recall volunteering. And why not simply turn worship to the world as it is, not as you require it to be?
The whole of human history and achievement would seem to just be an attempt by us to develop a greater range of choices than we were presented with as an animal.
We are, at every turn, only presented with the same range of choices as animals - it's the nature of life on this planet. Judging by our continued unconsidered use of resources we are making 'choices' on par with mold on a piece of bread.
The conceit in the necessity to be anything but an animal I find lamentable.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 12, 2009 - 11:20pm PT
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Jan, personal accountability is the crux of self-actualization beyond a doubt. In general, religion tries to superimpose imaginary external authority figures and/or processes in an effort to suppress the darker aspects of human nature. They fail, however, IMO, precisely because of the imaginary basis of those concepts, viz: "The devil made me do it," "Jesus will forgive me" or "Must be some bad karma" are examples of the loopholes that short-circuit faith-based efforts at behavioral control. At that point the apologetics begin, but at that point the damage is already done.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 12, 2009 - 11:21pm PT
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The problem I have with the atheist crew is that they maintain they are as moral or more than religious people which is certainly true in the first generation which was raised with a religion that was rejected.
What we don't know is the societal effect of subsequent generations raised without ideas of accountability. Experiments with scientific atheism in the Soviet Union and Maoist China do not give much comfort along these lines.
Your comments reveal that you know nothing about the subject. We already know what consecutive generations raised on religion have brought us. I'll take my chances with the athiest/agnostic crowd. If anything I'd be more worried about kids raised on Xbox and Wii.
I am the product of at least 3 generations of free thought, agnostic or otherwise a-religious thinking. The morals and ethics throughout my family are quite intact. As if atheism just sprang up recently. Get real.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 12, 2009 - 11:28pm PT
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I appreciate the answer TripL7.
Soul/spirit issues, when persued, will come down to definitions and semantics, I believe. The ancient Hebrews appear to have had no conception of the soul although they certainly had concept of body/spirit. The assumption of "soul" seems to have originated with the Greeks. I wonder to what extent that particular Greek influence prejudiced New Testament writers.
If the soul comprises the intellect, and angels are without soul, does it follow that angels are without intellect ? It would be easy to assume, from that, angels are also without free will, personality etc. And considering angels loyalty to God....if that loyalty is not based in intellect or will, what compells their actions? Are we to assume being driven by the the "Spirit" accounts no free agency? If that is the case, what elevates angels above mindless robots ?
........not agreeing, entirely, but grateful for your explanation !
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 12, 2009 - 11:31pm PT
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The problem I have with the atheist crew is that they maintain they are as moral or more than religious people which is certainly true in the first generation which was raised with a religion that was rejected.
Only 16% of Americans are religiously unaffiliated, and that includes agnostics, so the number of Atheists is likely in single digits. The means almost all the crime in the U.S. is committed by the religious - particularly white collar crime. We won't even get into adultery and divorce among the religious - it would so far outstrip Atheists as to be laughable.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 12, 2009 - 11:39pm PT
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Genuine religion requires commitment....not merely affiliation.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 12, 2009 - 11:41pm PT
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Sweden is said to be the most atheistic country in the world (80% of Swedes do not believe in God). You know how crazy those Swedes can be. Bunch a murderin' psychopaths mostly.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 13, 2009 - 12:17am PT
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Well, I once heard a Dane sneer that "Swedes are just Germans disguised as human beings." I don't know what that says about creationism, but it's a pretty clever put-down.
Sorry for interrupting. I'll leave now.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 12:20am PT
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What a dysfunctional group.
No foundation to stand on.
No wonder yer all trying to kill each other, both intellectually and physically.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 12:25am PT
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Stone has no soul ......
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 12:27am PT
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Nope .....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 13, 2009 - 12:30am PT
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bc-
I can't speak to the atheist ethics of you or your family, but the tone of your post indicates that you are at least lacking in manners.
You might be surprised at what I know about anthropology and history.
Concerning history, it is a fact that what was done in the name of communism combined with modern technology, killed more people numbers wise, than the crusades, witch burnings, and religious wars ever did, to the tune of millions. Throw in nazism which may or may not have been atheistic, and for sure, no contest.
The problem with all these philosophies which killed people for their own good, for the sake of the world, or the greater good, or whatever, is that they put idealogies and utopian long term goals above actual human beings. Frankly, I don't see any difference here between religion and secular idealogies, except that modern religious people are pretty aware of the damage that kind of fanaticism can do, whereas modern atheists seem surprisingly naive in their assumptions about the rationality of human beings.
In terms of anthropology, I will say again, that something like religion which has served humanity well for at least 300,000 years fulfills important needs and functions, which can not be done without by the majority of people. It's pure hubris to think that a small elite of rational, educated atheists represent the majority of human beings on this planet. It also goes against the findings of modern psychology to think that humans are better motivated by logic than the promise of rewards whatever they may be.
Historically, anthropologically, and psychologically, it is of greater benefit to modernize the religions we have or invent newer better ones, and to emphasize more universalizing ethics for all of them, than to try to convert the masses to atheism.
None of the above reasoning of course, addresses the actual "truth" of God or spiritual ideas.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 12:31am PT
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What next?
Jan's a lot smarter than most of you dysfunctional no foundation principals.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 13, 2009 - 12:42am PT
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Oh, Jan gets it relative to motivation, but he misses the morality of the masses by a mile. The question here is about outlandishness that passes for motivational claptrap fed to the masses. Just that Werner sits here with his vedas side-by-side with christians and their bible, each secure in the absolute truth of their respective ancient myths says it all.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 12:46am PT
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Jan is female
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 12:59am PT
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American society still slaughters billions of animals to eat them.
What kind of morals and ethics are those?
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 13, 2009 - 01:03am PT
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You wouldn't enjoy Sweden, Werner. Every dish has meatballs.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 01:03am PT
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Hahaha
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 13, 2009 - 01:31am PT
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Werner might like the imported Norwegian beer @ $10.00 a glass. They also import propane from Denmark................to thaw out more meatballs for dessert.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 13, 2009 - 01:43am PT
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Warbler!
The soul is comprised of the intellect and the emotions. I was referring the emotions that result from physical pain(sensory). The emotions of love etc. are from the soul. What I meant to say was that some occur from the body and others from the intellect.
The soul is the site of personality, the will, intellect and the emotions.
The body is were the physical senses or touch tastes pain and our conscious of such things as the world we live in(material world).
And as I stated the spirit is were we communicate with God.
The soul is were the spirit and body are merged.
Through his body man is in contact with the outside sensuous world, affecting and being affected by it.
The soul stands between these two worlds, yet belongs to both. It is linked to the spiritual world through the spirit, and the material world through the body.
"Formed man from dust from the ground" refers to body "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life" refers to man's spirit as it came from God; "and man became a living soul" refers to man's soul when man's body was quickened by the spirit and was brought into being a living and self-conscious man.
I was attempting to show Jennie that God created man unique from the angels. The angels were created as spirits, man was created predominantly as a living soul. His soul represents him and his individuality. It is the organ of mans freewill, were spirit and body are fully merged. If mans soul wills to obey God, it will allow the spirit to rule over man as ordered by God. The soul, if it chooses, can suppress the spirit and take some other form of satisfaction as lord of the man.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 02:10am PT
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Jennie and Warbler
I guess we all have to go to Sweden now for dinner along with all the rest of the crew here .....
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 13, 2009 - 02:18am PT
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Yngwie
Yha, my Grandmother was 100% Swedish, she was a Johnson, to be sure!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 13, 2009 - 02:27am PT
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What we think about the history and cosmology of the universe makes little difference in our hearts.
I've noticed, having studied the mystical paths of every religion to one degree or another, that they all include techniques for calming the mind and detaching from the internal dialog that incessantly talks to ourselves in our heads.
Personally, I've found vast peace and benefit in reducing and talking control of the inner chatter. I think it would be a worthy goal for atheist and believer alike. How you going to listen to God if you're tied up with your own inner drama and trauma? Scientists and agnostics all still have to live with their brain contents. Happiness is still experienced within, God or no God.
Meditation can be tough to get established in but I encourage those who are interested to try. It has scientifically documented benefits and there are Christian forms as well.
Just the practice of being present "Be here Now" mindfulness, can bring us to a calmer and more real center where we have the presence of mind to consider these matters intently.
Otherwise, whether Angels have Souls or whether we started with a big bang...at the end of the day, it doesn't touch your life or heart.
Peace
Karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 13, 2009 - 02:42am PT
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Karl- "Meditation..."
Great suggestion, something I need to start doing more often!
"I will meditate on Your precepts, and contemplate Your ways." Psalm 119:15.
"Give ear to my words O Lord, consider my meditation." Psalm 5:1.
Peace and Love
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slayton
Trad climber
Here and There
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Dec 13, 2009 - 03:13am PT
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For any that might be interested (and I suspect that many of you are already familiar with it) check out Joseph Campbell's The Power of Myth. Initially it was an interview of the author by Bill Moyers on PBS and was later put in book form. From an historical perspective there is discussion about certain tenets of the Christian faith that were borrowed or incorporated from early religions (and how those earlier religions borrowed from earlier. .. . .). It also talks about (as Jan mentioned) the need for a new mythology based on who we are today as a society. Something that speaks to us on a level below the easy chatter of dogma.
Joseph Campbell is the author of many other books concerning comparative mythology. It was absolutely eye opening for me when I discovered his work and started reading it.
Cheers
Sean
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MH2
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 04:02am PT
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Now what if "free will" isn't really what we think it is.... our ideas of how consciousness works, and our conception of free will may just be a misunderstanding.
What evidence do we have of free will?
The same sort of evidence we have of love.
In the case of free will, offer a person a choice, say the healyj 2-choice food preference. Repeat the test as often as desired. Hopefully with the same starting conditions. If the person always makes the same choice, there is no evidence of free will. If they occasionally change their mind, that would be evidence of free will.
Unlike consciousness, which I can only think of as that which goes away under general anesthesia, I think I understand something about free will. I could be wrong. But to take a further example, a roll of dice isn't predictable, but we don't choose to call that free will. A person's behavior may have similar mechanical underpinnings, but for practical purposes it can't always be predicted and we choose to call that uncertainty free will.
Free will isn't a thing; it's a phrase. It can't be studied as reliably as an electron. When we talk about it we should avoid reification.
To me free will does not mean that we can do anything we want, just that when presented with a dilemma, say whether to go climbing or not, it appears to us that we have a real choice. Whether that choice is mechanical or pre-ordained is a whole different question that goes nowhere in my opinion.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 13, 2009 - 04:12am PT
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Interesting
Some Religions seem to have issues with free will.
Some religions talk a lot about free will and then offer prophesies of what will happen in the future. How's that possible if people's free will hasn't been expressed yet? If God or some prophet already knows what everybody will chose, then how free is it really?
Funny thing though, even if we don't have free will, even if time is an illusion, we at least seem to have free will and consequently must act as if we had the choice.
Does using free will jump us over into parallel universes where the echoes of our choice become manifest? Are there numerous destinies that could be chosen? That's pretty far down a rabbit hole to wrap our brains around.
Peace
karl
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MH2
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 04:37am PT
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the answer is we ignore the missing pieces in our perception...
What we perceive is a model of the wall, built on the expectation that it is continuous, which is a combination of what we are sensing and what we have experienced. The brain doesn't waste anytime worrying about something that isn't there in this case. But since you might have to perform an action that requires knowledge of the wall, your internal model of the wall serves as a way of planning the action.
Or could we simply say the brain extrapolates and interpolates parts of the visual field?
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/blindspot1.html
I don't know that any deep conclusions should be drawn from the many ways in which vision doesn't work like a camera.
I think it was Descartes who said something along the lines of,
"You think the eye is the organ of vision? No. You see the world only with your innermost being."
But more reliably, he said,
"The senses deceive from time to time, and it is prudent never to trust wholly those who have deceived us even once."
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MH2
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 05:04am PT
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Does using free will jump us over into parallel universes where the echoes of our choice become manifest?
One dodge around quantum weirdness is that all possible events occur. When the physicists fire a single photon at the famous double slit the photon goes through both openings, but into mutually inaccessible universes, but leaves a ghost of itself by interfering with itself. I might not be doing justice to that.
If all possible things happen it would mean not only a bunch of universes like bubbles of beer foam, but exponentially expanding and replicating beer foam.
But you wouldn't need free will to get there. The vast numbers of continuously branching Karl Babas would just be taking all doors open to them, willy nilly. Unless by mental or soul power you can control elementary particles.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 13, 2009 - 06:22am PT
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Ok, maybe try this from the other way around...
Exactly what about living on this bountiful planet, today, right now, with no gods of any kind is so frightening to you?
Exactly what about the unknowable is so frightening to you?
Exactly what about dying, and not continuing past that moment in any form whatsoever, is so frightening to you?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 13, 2009 - 08:43am PT
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None of these things is frightening to me, but all of them seem inadequate to explain the size and beauty of the universe or the potential of human beings.
Looking at a picture of a brain is interesting, but reading about electrical activity in the brain in response to various stimuli is more interesting. Learning what people can do with the power of their minds whether intellectually, musically, artistically, or by affecting their own body chemistry, is even more interesting.
The power of healthy self love and love of others, including those who aren't fond of us, and every living thing on this planet, is still more interesting.
Why exactly then, would anyone want to settle for a simple reductionist, mechanistic view of our lives, the power of our minds, our planet, our universe, the mystery of death and all the other things which are unexplained so far?
It's like asking why would one eat a gourmet meal, when you could get all the nutrition you need, by more efficiently swallowing some pills?
Life isn't just about function, but also about love, and beauty and meaning.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 13, 2009 - 08:43am PT
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“Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 13, 2009 - 10:34am PT
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Jan - why do those things have to be separate?
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 13, 2009 - 10:45am PT
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Sorry Jan, but your use of the term "first generation" in your post made it sound as if atheism was some kind of new philosphy. There have always been lots of us around, mostly in the closet due to social pressures. It's just not a very popular position in most places ya know. In some places a person could be put to death for it.
Then you drag out Stalin and Mao (and Hitler in your last post, mmm Godwin's law?). We could try to get some sort of body count between religion (those who killed in the name of some god, and of course we could only count the ones we know of, there were likely many more) and modern regimes that suppressed religion (killing to maintain power, ethnic cleansing etc., not specifically under the banner or in the name of atheism). How different do you think the count might be if the religious wars of the past had modern weapons? I'm guessing the planet would be an atomic wasteland.
Concerning your reply to me...
whereas modern atheists seem surprisingly naive in their assumptions about the rationality of human beings.
"naive", now that's just funny.
It's pure hubris to think that a small elite of rational, educated atheists represent the majority of human beings on this planet.
Who ever said that?
None of the above reasoning of course, addresses the actual "truth" of God or spiritual ideas.
Agreed.
And then in a later post...
Life isn't just about function, but also about love, and beauty and meaning.
Yeah, we atheist types got none of that.
I could really lose my manners over a statement like that.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 13, 2009 - 11:38am PT
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HealyJ wrote
Ok, maybe try this from the other way around...
Exactly what about living on this bountiful planet, today, right now, with no gods of any kind is so frightening to you
Actually, you were the one who said that the world was so bad that you didn't think a compassionate God could be responsible, then in a follow-up post painted a bright and sunny picture of your life. I'm assuming you see the suffering and imperfection in other's lives but yours is A-OK?
Exactly what about the unknowable is so frightening to you?
Exactly what about dying, and not continuing past that moment in any form whatsoever, is so frightening to you?
Joe, it's nothing like that. I was raised Lutheran and our particular church was so patently superfluous that I concluded there was no way to know if there was a God and I just had to hope for the best, God or no God. Everybody seemed like they were covering their butt by kissing God's butt and using the church for a social platform. The teachings were like fairy tales depicting a God who was vain, despotic, and longing for empty praise.
Then, when I was 18 or 19, I noticed that events were interconnected in impossible ways (if the universe was mechanical) I had experiences of knowing events before they happened and experiences of divine white light that had an expansive integrated knowingness as it's very nature. After some very deep and unequivocal experiences, I went looking for some spiritual books (which I'd hadn't even known existed until then) to explain my experience, and I was surprised that some mystical treatments of religion had described my experiences to the letter.
The fact that I experienced first and then read about it, gave me more faith in what happened and what I read. Many of those experiences excluded the possibility that I was just experiencing the drug-like effect of neuro-transmitters going on spring break: If you feel an earthquake on the way, tell people, and a week later you experience your first earthquake, it shakes your mechanical worldview. Time and space aren't what we think.
So for me, I didn't need to believe or not believe. I just found what came to me and started looking deeper. When I did that, I found more, and life became much, much better ever since. I acknowledge that no matter how "Spiritual" you are, you are bound to have a limited picture of Spirit and perhaps have wrong ideas about the big picture as well. We are more than our ideas and beliefs though. The path is infinite. The vision of science is also flawed and those who come to a materialist conclusion have jumped the gun in my opinion.
Peace
Karl
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 13, 2009 - 11:56am PT
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Karl wrote: I noticed that events were interconnected in impossible ways (if the universe was mechanical) so you based your views of the universe on your limited understanding of what was possible?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 13, 2009 - 11:59am PT
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And materialistic conclusions are never final. The scientific method has a built-in process of being open to revision that is lacking in theologies that claim to be etched in stone. As a result, the quality of life has steadily increased beyond the wildest dreams of generations who had no real option but to accept the dictates of flawed, stubbornly authoritarian dogmas.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 12:09pm PT
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And materialistic conclusions are never final.
This true for both spiritual and material consciousness.
Those that do not fully and completely understand the two (spiritual and material consciousness), will make those poor assumptions you presented.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 13, 2009 - 12:09pm PT
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Karl,
I have lots of respect for your posts and story. I would only say that if the religious/spiritual people on this forum want us atheist/agnostics to keep open the possibility of some kind of supernatural divine being or force, then I think the religious/spiritual people should keep open the possibility that their experiences are simply material in nature.
I had experiences of knowing events before they happened
See Law of Large Truly Numbers where it relates to coincidences.
http://www.skepdic.com/lawofnumbers.html
I'm not saying this is the case for what happened to you, but you may want to consider the possibilty.
EDIT: Thought I'd add this quote by J.B.S. Haldane:
I have no doubt that in reality the future will be vastly more surprising than anything I can imagine. Now my own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose.
Powerful, unexplainable experiences are no proof they have a supernatural source any more than the Hubble Deep Field photos are proof there is no heaven. "Looking deeper" (a vague and highly personal term, if ever there was one) takes many forms and, as you say, "The path is infinte".
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 13, 2009 - 12:40pm PT
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And materialistic conclusions are never final.
This true for both spiritual and material consciousness.
Those that do not fully and completely understand the two (spiritual and material consciousness), will make those poor assumptions you presented.
Werner I don't think I'm the only one who wishes you would be a little more open explaining these claims. If you "completely understand" something we poor atheists don't, wouldn't it be worthwhile to turn us on to the supreme truths you keep hinting at having a lock on? Otherwise it's just like "nyeah, nyeah, nyeah, I get it and you don't, so that means you're stupid." Where's the sattva in that?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 13, 2009 - 12:52pm PT
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The spiritual and mystical view of the universe grows out of a sense that a "simple" description based on the physical (material) properties could not possibly explain the human experience of existence. This supposition forms the basis of the arguments presented on this thread, and in a more sophisticated way, in the discussions of philosophy that have gone on most likely long before they were written.
As our understanding of these physical properties expands, what was once considered "impossible" becomes more and more possible. Evolution, for instance, as first proposed by Darwin, lacked the identity of the very mechanism central to the theory: inheritance. The existence of this mechanism is a prediction of the theory, and the nature of the mechanism central to the characteristics of evolution, now spectacularly verified by our understanding of the genome, and its role in cell function.
In what I consider to be a spectacular advance in our understanding of this "biological machinery" the genome is used to map out the metabolic network of the cell. In a recent article in Science, for example, the ability to decipher the genome leads to predictions on metabolic regulation which is measured in the laboratory by a set of complete, and exquisite techniques. This bacteria has a 816 kbs genome (one of the smallest known) and is physically small (referred to as "tiny"). Yet it is a machine capable of executing 189 reactions in an organized manner, basically defining its life.
Here we sit close to the cusp of completely understanding this bit of life, how it functions in its entirety, how it responds to its environment, what causes it to reproduce, how it adapts metabolically, how it builds itself.
All this driven by a tiny machine, a base pair has 10s of atoms, a million base pairs has 10s of millions of atoms, and these are arranged in such a way as to produce life.
This is almost unimaginable today, though more than imagined, it is studied... probably unimaginable in detail even 10 years ago... and what an intellectual leap 150 years ago.
One can deny that this is possible, this description of life, but what a gargantuan failure of the imagination is that!
I admit that seeing the universe for what it is, a physical system, presents huge problems in explaining our experience as humans. But that difficulty does not make that way of seeing wrong. Nor does it make that sight less inspiring, less beautiful, less wondrous or even less mystical. But by its discipline, it makes it real.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 01:24pm PT
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From Bhagavad-gita
The English word "religion" is a little different from sanātana-dharma.
Religion conveys the idea of faith, and faith may change. One may have faith in a particular process, and he may change this faith and adopt another, but sanātana-dharma refers to that activity which cannot be changed.
For instance, liquidity cannot be taken from water, nor can heat be taken from fire.
Similarly, the eternal function of the eternal living entity cannot be taken from the living entity. Sanātana-dharma is eternally integral with the living entity.
That which has neither end nor beginning must not be sectarian, for it cannot be limited by any boundaries.
Yet those belonging to some sectarian faith will wrongly consider that sanātana-dharma is also sectarian, but if we go deeply into the matter and consider it in the light of modern science, it is possible for us to see that sanātana-dharma is the business of all the people of the world-nay, of all the living entities of the universe.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 13, 2009 - 01:33pm PT
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wonderful words, but really, one could apply them to fit many situations, they could be appropriated as an explanation of the unity a physical interpretation of the universe provides
why limit the possible by what a very few people thought 10s of centuries ago? when finally humans could actually spend the time to contemplate these issues
we do ourselves no service in adopting the very limited views of those people, our recent ancestors, who grappled with these important issues from the view point of what they knew. Should we not do what they did, and push our understanding beyond those bonds of ancient thinking?
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 13, 2009 - 01:38pm PT
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liquidity cannot be taken from water, nor can heat be taken from fire.
Throw water on a really hot fire = heat is gone, water turns to vapor ;-)
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 01:42pm PT
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push our understanding beyond those bonds of ancient thinking?
The stop sign means stop 24 hours a day 365 days of the year unless some higher authority is there to clear the way.
Tomorrow is Monday at 1:00 is not my day and time to stop .....
??????
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 13, 2009 - 01:44pm PT
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you have to be less metaphorical Werner, I didn't get that post
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 13, 2009 - 02:09pm PT
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Ed wrote
Karl wrote: I noticed that events were interconnected in impossible ways (if the universe was mechanical) so you based your views of the universe on your limited understanding of what was possible?
and
The spiritual and mystical view of the universe grows out of a sense that a "simple" description based on the physical (material) properties could not possibly explain the human experience of existence. This supposition forms the basis of the arguments presented on this thread, and in a more sophisticated way, in the discussions of philosophy that have gone on most likely long before they were written.
As our understanding of these physical properties expands, what was once considered "impossible" becomes more and more possible....
And as science goes deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole, it comes closer to dimensions and realities that border on the Spiritual. Why assume it will never reach there?
My experience, then and now, logically and experientially, and confirmed many times over long perods, implies a reality that science does not yet recognize. As I have learned to quiet my mind and open my heart, I have some access to what something some would call "mystical" and can use it as a tool in a similar way that some might use logic. I've met others who have developed this to an amazing degree. They aren't interested in changing your mind or proving anything to you.
Everyone is fine just as they are until they are ready for change, to heal their pain or seek greater peace and love.
I don't take pleasure in my beliefs and hardly think they matter. I'm always open to them changing and my understanding is constantly shifting, seeing that one perspective might be limited in light of a bigger picture.
I take pleasure in Peace and Love within that make the world a magical and wonderful place and make people perfect and OK just the way they are. This just happens to coincide with knowledge that Spirit is Real and can be communed with. If the experience didn't come with that, I'd still be happy, but it does.
When I read religious texts, I can often see underlying truth that may be misinterpreted or distorted by politics, culture and time. Other times, it seems religion has adopted primitive superstition. This is a dense reality on this planet (even though it's a lot less dense than our senses tell us) Both religion and science are operating in the dark, far more than they know.
Like you said in a far back post, you know a lot about how gravity behaves, but you don't REALLY know what gravity is. You can't yet use it like photon or radiowaves. Someday, maybe that will be child's play. Science has only been at it hundreds of years (or primitively for a thousand or two) What hubris Science has to think it knows so much. What will it know in 50,000 years if it doesn't invent more tools of our own destruction before then?
Peace
Karl
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 13, 2009 - 02:12pm PT
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ok, I'm not interested in changing your mind either...
over and out.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 02:13pm PT
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In other words
The acceptance of God/ultimate authority is impossible to deny or escape from even for the gross materialist.
The gross materialist will submit to the strongest, and the most strongest is Material Nature herself for the materialist.
No human can defeat her. Thus one must submit to the superior whether materialist or spiritualist or both simultaneously.
Material nature is subordinate to God, she is the inferior energy of the supreme which is the superior, spiritual energy.
The first step in understanding spirit is not God nor the universe but ourselves, the soul, and it's constitutional position.
Without knowledge of the real constitutional position of the living entity (the soul) all knowledge will remain in the confines of gross materialism the three modes of material nature, goodness, passion and ignorance.
Higher than these is, pure goodness, which transcends these three.
On the absolute platform there is nothing material at all and one will see that everything is actually spiritual.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 13, 2009 - 02:39pm PT
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One interesting avenue to walk down is this:
Let take a completely materialistic, atheist view. If that view is true, how should we seek happiness in life? Since our entire consciousness is merely an electro-chemical reaction, don't you think society should be spending vast amount of money to concoct Psych drugs that make us feel irie yummy all the time? Why not? We're a bunch of chemicals so chemicals should tune us to satisfaction no? Wouldn't this be a more direct use of science for happiness?
And if folks were happy, why would we need to have stupid wars for oil or even burn so much of it? Happy drugs should be priority #1 in a material world.
Sustainability? Who cares right? This is it! Get yours, that's all there is. (maybe that Bush guy really wasn't a Christian)
All this talk of ethics and moralisms in climbing or otherwise would be foolishness. You're toast in the end and no character development really counts for much except in an internal head game.
Love? Just a chemical reaction. Why spend so much on dates and family and crap like that. Let's get the drug companies on a Synthetic Love drug. They'll get rich, we won't have broken hearts
Peace
Karl
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 13, 2009 - 03:55pm PT
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Wow, Karl, that's the worst thing I've ever read coming from you.
Sorry, but if that's how you feel, you really don't understand the atheist viewpoint at all.
EDIT: Perhaps you are living under this misconception - "In some cases, people might be confused between two senses of materialism: first the philosophical materialism which argues that everything that exists is matter and energy with no place for the supernatural, and second the preoccupation with material objects, comforts, etc." Here's the rest of the article http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismatheistsworship/a/WorshipMoney.htm
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jstan
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 05:07pm PT
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Karl:
It at least seems the differences here are rooted in what people prefer to feel. Now I don’t think I am able to read your texts as you mean them but let me make a guess. You appreciate the wonder you feel for very large things you do not know. Mysteries. And you worry that they may all be lost.
Love of mystery is half the reason people get into the technical fields. We don’t know what gravity is – yet. Everyone loves a mystery. What’s the other half?
Technical people are determined to find out. Now they do not worry about losing the mystery. There is not the slightest doubt there will be another bigger mystery right behind. The quantum is perfect case in point. You would think that since we can now calculate so much with that way of looking at things it would begin to get a little dull. Could not be further from the case. It says things that, acccording to our experience, are completely nuts. The field has never before seen so much excitement. Ultimately we are going to have to find out how to change ourselves. The biggest mystery of all.
As a side benefit “finding out” has a long history of assuring we have things like food and water we need so we can go on enjoying the mysteries for another day. Other bad things happen of course. Which is another mystery yet to be penetrated. Why do humans insist upon making bad things?
As a minor point. Understanding what nature has built over the last fourteen billion years for sure means there are immensely subtle mysteries out there. The same can’t be said for rock climbing. I have been saying for forty years now, we lose a lot when we have a guidebook to everything. Where’s the mystery in that?
There are some mysteries that do need to be preserved.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 13, 2009 - 05:15pm PT
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Love your conributions Jbro
You write
Karl:
It at least seems the differences here are rooted in what people prefer to feel.
We are all living in a soup of that brother, believer and non- beliver alike.
I don't need to preserve any mystery. It is ever present. We have different artifices of mind to protect us from it.
OM
*
Baba
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 13, 2009 - 05:26pm PT
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So My Awesome partner, also a meditator, just came to me saying I realize why I love this Black and White imagary in this photo. It reminds me of my dreams. Then I realized I only dreamed in black and white. I seemed to dream in colors but realized I just filled in the colors with my expectations from previous experience.
Pretty insight honey! particularly without benefit of our links and discussion here.
I though most people only actually dreamed in B/w but unlike too many tacos, I did some research and oustroundingly very little research has data on this basic element of a huge amount of our human experience!
Do you dream in color and how would you know?
peace
Karl
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 13, 2009 - 06:24pm PT
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"On the absolute platform there is nothing material at all and one will see that everything is actually spiritual."
Yes, but all the more if you serve the higher will of God. If you serve the lower lusts it is more material!
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.1) By John MacArthur
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 06:57pm PT
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During World War II many families especially mothers prayed to God to protect and bring their sons home and safe.
Many sons did not return.
Many mothers and or family members became atheists. What kind of God is this they thought.
Many pray daily for their bread and to win the lottery.
After never winning they became atheists.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 13, 2009 - 07:38pm PT
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The Way of Love
1 Corinthians 13, If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 07:40pm PT
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Something from today's LA Times.
latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-morrison12-2009dec12,0,1991554.column
latimes.com
PATT MORRISON ASKS
Bobbie Kirkhart: Atheists United's chief nonbeliever
'It's always a great time of year to be an atheist'
Patt Morrison
December 12, 2009
'No God? No problem!" That's one sign of the season. The American Humanist Assn. is pasting it
all over Southern California buses to make the point that you don't have to be godly to be good.
Atheists United, headed by Bobbie Kirkhart, had a different holiday sign for last Christmas. It
read, "Reason's Greetings," and it was accompanied by one of those stylized Darwin fish, this one
wearing a jaunty Santa Claus cap. It went on display, legally, in a Westside park, outnumbered by
creches -- and someone stole it.
Kirkhart's not surprised. She remembers that when a sign went up on the Glendale Freeway,
maybe 10 years ago, announcing that the atheist organization was cleaning up roadside trash, it
got defaced all the time. Not so much now. And she thinks that's a good sign, too, that atheism
isn't getting quite the bad rap it used to.
This year, the Atheists United holiday display destined for that same Westside park is a gnome
with Charles Darwin's face on it. Kirkhart is an optimist but not a fool. How long it'll stay there,
she can't hazard a guess.
As for me, I think I'll look in vain for a long time yet to find a "Happy Solstice" card in the
Hallmark store.
Is this a great time of year or a terrible time of year to be an atheist?
It's always a great time of year to be an atheist. The traditions of Christmas are almost entirely
pre-Christian, so that's not really a problem for us that some people are celebrating the birth of
their god. We are doing what people have always done when the days are cold and dark -- we
look to each other for light and warmth.
The downside is this so-called war on Christmas. This year, the Gap had an ad that celebrated
Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa and the solstice. Some Christians are saying it puts the solstice
on the same level as Christmas.
Then it arguably does the same for Kwanzaa and Hanukkah too.
They wouldn't dare boycott based on Kwanzaa and Hanukkah, but they can boycott based on [the
solstice]. It's kind of amazing, such latent bigotry. People who are very insecure in their own
beliefs are frightened by other beliefs and want to stifle them. I think their own insecurity makes
them afraid to have us in the same society and have any access to the same media.
Where in American history do you find the same protection for non-religion that believers claim
for religion?
The 1st Amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."
Certainly most of our Founding Fathers who wrote our Constitution and declared independence
were very much concerned about protection of freedom of thought.
Yet many people say this nation was founded as a Judeo-Christian nation.
They get that from the Pilgrims -- and of course today's most conservative fundamentalists
would be quite liberal compared to the Pilgrims. So when people [say they] want the government
the Pilgrims established and envisioned, I don't think they know what they're asking for.
A 1999 Gallup Poll found that 38% of Americans wouldn't vote for a Muslim presidential
candidate and 48% wouldn't vote for an atheist. Federal courts have said religious tests for public
office are illegal, but North Carolina's constitution says that atheists cannot hold elected office.
That law is being used to challenge the November election of an atheist to the Asheville City
Council. So has the public standing of atheists evolved?
I think it's improved somewhat because of the people we call the Four Horsemen: [authors]
Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens. It's been exciting to see
atheists' books in airport bookstores, [like] "God is Not Great," Hitchens' book.
And you didn't say "Thank God" when you saw it?
My son-in-law is training us all to say "Thank Godzilla."
So if atheism is indeed beginning to register, why is that?
There's much more access to information. Even in Los Angeles, we've had people come to
Atheists United and say, "I thought I was the only atheist in the world." Being able to Google the
word "atheist" to access information has helped. I think the biggest single factor is eight years of
something pretty close to an open theocracy. People got frightened when George Bush talked
about crusades. There are certainly atheists who agreed with that war, but they didn't think it
was a crusade. That woke people up. And I think that many of [them] decided to stand up and be
heard -- probably mostly just told their friends and family.
You mean they came out?
They came out. Richard Dawkins has an "out" campaign, and you can get a scarlet A from the
Richard Dawkins website to show that you are an "out" atheist.
How big is your membership?
Membership is still low compared to the number of atheists. We are by definition people who go
our own way. On any fourth Sunday, when we have our meetings, you'll find more atheists sitting
in the pews of churches and synagogues than in our meetings. Society has sold the idea that
religion is by definition good, that religion's doing good things, and so people go for the
socialization and the charitable events. People believe the church is doing good, and some are,
of course.
Are these atheists using churchgoing for protective cover?
I have a nephew in Little Rock, Ark., who, if he lived in Los Angeles, would be a serious atheist.
But in Little Rock, with exactly the same beliefs, he's a serious Methodist.
Are atheists persecuted?
Oh, sure. Persecuted is a very strong word for what happens in this country, but I lost a job once.
I had been teaching in a private school, but not a religious one. We had a new director, a really
vocal Christian. He started prayer meetings, voluntary, before work on Wednesday mornings. The
school was failing and it was time for layoffs, and I was among the first. I learned from my
Christian friend that [the director] asked why I wasn't going to prayer meetings. They told him I
was an atheist, and he said, "Oh, we'll take care of that."
How did you become an atheist?
I grew up in a very religious home. My mother was a Salvation Army officer before she married.
That was in Enid, Okla. I call it the whipping strop of the Bible Belt. I loved the church; I taught a
Sunday school class. My first job out of college was as a social worker in South-Central L.A. I met
people of other religions. I had always been told that those people were just superstitious. [I
found] they were as smart as I was -- and they believed [in] Hinduism or Islam. That was a little
disconcerting.
I had always had what Christians call the problem of evil. I had never doubted the existence of a
god, but I thought God was terribly cruel, and then I felt very guilty because I was judging God.
My clients were black and Latino women who were God's most fervent servants, and my God was
at best leaving them to very cruel elements. And I realized that the God that I had grown up
believing [in] could not exist.
I looked at other [religious] concepts, and most of them didn't hold water. [When] my father was
very ill, I found myself wanting to pray for his health. And I didn't believe there was a god up
there who was going to hear my prayers. On vacation, I went to a lonely beach in Mazatlan, and I
said, "I'm not going to leave this beach until I know what I think." And I spent about six hours
there and came off the beach an atheist.
I have to use the metaphor -- was it a Saul-on-the-road-to-Damascus moment for you?
"Pascal's wager" [is] the idea that if you believe and there is no God, you've lost nothing. And if
you don't believe and there is a God, you've lost eternal life. What I came to was more practical: If
that's the case, how would I know I've chosen the right god? And what would make me think that
a god who was that cruel, and would punish me eternally for my honest beliefs, would reward me
for trying to make myself believe? And that was the final moment.
What don't people know about atheists?
Most atheists have happy, full lives; have great families. I found my late husband at Atheists
United, and my daughter met her husband at Atheists United. We care about the larger
community. We are a free-thought community. I don't think there's any higher moral force than
the thoughtful, informed, individual human conscience.
Why don't you just hedge your bets and be an agnostic?
I am an agnostic. People don't understand what an agnostic is. There's about a 95% overlap
between atheists and agnostic. I don't know with absolute certainty that there is nothing that
could be considered a god. But I know with functional certainty that there's no god I have to be
concerned about in my life or my observable world. An agnostic says "I don't know." Theism is
about belief, and an atheist says I don't believe. So I don't know, and I don't believe.
How do atheists celebrate the solstice?
We do most of the holiday observances that other people do. You will find [Christians] who don't
do any of the traditional holiday observances because they believe the real meaning of Christmas
is worship; you'll find atheists who don't like solstice parties. But most of us will get together and
there'll be evergreen decorations and maybe candles and we'll sing and have a party.
What do you sing?
We'll probably sing "Imagine." It's a great song.
patt.morrison@latimes.com.
This interview was edited and excerpted from a longer taped transcript. An archive of Morrison's
published interviews is online at latimes.com/pattasks.
Copyright © 2009, The Los Angeles Times
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 13, 2009 - 07:58pm PT
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Richard Dawkins used to be married to Lala Ward, the Blonde incarnation of the Time Lord Romana, on Dr Who.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 08:03pm PT
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Materialist, atheists = Anthropocentrism, anthropocentric ?
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Norton
Social climber
the Middle Class
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 13, 2009 - 08:22pm PT
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 13, 2009 - 08:31pm PT
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And now for something completely different....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 13, 2009 - 08:39pm PT
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Base wrote
So the only thing that makes any sense to me is that part in the bible that says:
Without love I am nothing.
Yes indeed bro
but then you write
science goes WAYYY out of its way to avoid anthropenctric thought. It is almost a guaranteed way to prejudice evidence.
Let me quote myself and explain
Let take a completely materialistic, atheist view. If that view is true, how should we seek happiness in life? Since our entire consciousness is merely an electro-chemical reaction, don't you think society should be spending vast amount of money to concoct Psych drugs that make us feel irie yummy all the time? Why not? We're a bunch of chemicals so chemicals should tune us to satisfaction no? Wouldn't this be a more direct use of science for happiness?
My point is that we have an inate Spiritual bent which is ingrained and assumed like our own skin. A fundamentalist material interpretation of science would logically suggest the happy drug approach I suggested no? Add SPirit, which we automatically have, and it's senseless.
Which brings me to this
Our problem with fundamentalism comes when they actually believe their literal dogma and are willing to kill in the logical pursuit of those ends. We've seen it. The infidels will all be killed. The unbelievers are going to Hell anyway...we'll bring them Jesus with their death..
Science has given us more power than wisdom. We are not acting as if we believe science when it tells us our being is an electrochemical reaction. Some politicians act as if there were no human spirit and similar consequences to above genocides have been seen
Maybe it takes all this for us to search our hearts and choose the expression of God that actually inspires trust, devotion and light
Love
That's where I'm staking my claim and whatever God might judge me for in consequence, I'll have to accept.
Love
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jstan
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 08:55pm PT
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I am not sure anyone should be praised for their convictions. Unless of course, those convictions are thought to be correct by the praiser AND their maintenance comes at great personal cost.
The conviction that should be praised is the one which is easy, because it is backed up by extensive data.
"Nothing I am saying is really even supposing God. It is about what is good? And how do you practice it without burning a bunch of people at the stake along the way."
This prompts me to ask a question about a person's personal pursuit of good.
Is it meet for a person who seeks to be "good" simply for their own personal edification to subject innocents to extreme torture?
Would it not be more christian for a person to say, "I would rather risk being wrong than to tear my righteousness from the body of another?"
Here's something I suspect is true. If there is a god, a lot of righteous people from the day's of the Inquisition ultimately encountered great surprise.
For their deeds, Hell would be just payment.
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 13, 2009 - 08:55pm PT
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Healy asked:
"Exactly what about living on this bountiful planet, today, right now, with no gods of any kind is so frightening to you?
Exactly what about the unknowable is so frightening to you?
Exactly what about dying, and not continuing past that moment in any form whatsoever, is so frightening to you?"
None of these things ever frightened me, even when I was a devoted agnostic with atheist leanings who hated Christians. These ideas did not frighten me,and I believed at the time that death was nothing more than a "long sleep".
Like Karl, I had spiritual experiences that were too powerful to ignore. I suspect most have as well, but some choose to ignore or rationalize tham away.
That's free will, or maybe "freedom of choice" is better.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 13, 2009 - 09:26pm PT
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If anyone has the time there's an excellent little WNYC show called Radiolab that has been exploring several of the topics getting kicked around here. The shows are each an hour long, available as mp3 downloads or streams, and exceptionally mind-bending.
http://www.wnyc.org/shows/radiolab/episodes/2009/09/18
After Life: What happens at the moment when we slip from life...to the other side? Is it a moment? If it is a moment, when is that moment? And what happens afterward? It's a show of questions that don't have easy answers. So, in a slight departure from our regular format, Radiolab brings you eleven meditations on how, when, and even if we die.
http://www.wnyc.org/shows/radiolab/episodes/2008/03/14
(So-Called) Life: What are the consequences when humans start playing with life? The human imagination has always dreamed up fantastic creatures, but now biotechnology is making it easier and easier for us to actually create forms of life that have never existed before. In this hour, Radio Lab looks at the uneasy marriage between biology and engineering, and asks what counts as "natural?"
http://www.wnyc.org/shows/radiolab/episodes/2008/11/14
Choice: We turn up the volume on the voices in our heads and try to make sense of the babble. On a journey around the country to understand how emotion and logic interact to guide us through our options, we ponder how we get through the million choices and decisions we make every day. Forget free will, some important decisions could come down to a steaming cup of coffee.
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 13, 2009 - 09:28pm PT
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A few thoughts from the teaching today in my church:
"The defining characteristic of a Christian is to love God and love others."
"God's love for us is based upon His character, not any worthiness of ours, because God is Love."
"God's sovreignty works through our choices, but this in no way diminishes our personal responsibility."
"Inward integrity is better than outward reputation."
"When bad things happen, wrestle with it. Christianity calls you to think. God calls you to think even more than you are presently thinking."
"As Christians, we live in the tension between the 'already' and the 'not yet.'"
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 09:34pm PT
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Base 104 -- "and science goes WAYYY out of its way to avoid anthropenctric thought."
Ed Hartouni -- "The models get better and better, as does our understanding of the climate. As that happens, the role of the anthropogenic driving is more important, not less, in understanding the recent climate changes."
????????????
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 13, 2009 - 09:41pm PT
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anthrocentric - people centered
anthropogenic - originating from people
two different things...
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Dec 13, 2009 - 09:42pm PT
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Nice recall Werner, but they are not contradictory.
One is the idea of avoiding anthropogenic influence in the execution of science.
The other is science studying anthropogenic influence in an area such as global warming.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 09:43pm PT
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Thanks monolith ..... Ed the spellings almost the same.
Need to clean my glasses ......
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 13, 2009 - 10:10pm PT
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Thanks Cintune for those links. I opened them in another tab to visit late night.
Sometime in our froth, it's easy to skip something that might be worthwhile
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 13, 2009 - 10:16pm PT
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Would it not be more christian for a person to say, "I would rather risk being wrong than to tear my righteousness from the body of another?"
Here's something I suspect is true. If there is a god, a lot of righteous people from the day's of the Inquisition ultimately encountered great surprise.
For their deeds, Hell would be just payment.
At some point perhaps the only solution is forgiveness. I've looked at the molestor, he was molested, where does guilt begin?
We look at the perpetrators, and say they deserve punishment, and then see the punishment of the world and say it falls to innocents. If Karma and incarnation are true, there is justice and yet we are unsatisfied.
All our judgements are reflections of ourselves.
Forgive everyone, Forgive yourself, and only then is peace
Doesn't mean you can't fight, but within..Forgive All
Peace
Karl
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 13, 2009 - 10:47pm PT
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I used to see Jesus at work. Everyone called him "Chuy".
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 11:40pm PT
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Germans made advances in nuclear weapons by studying Atharva Veda and Rig-Veda.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Dec 13, 2009 - 11:43pm PT
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WB,
Doesn't it describe a nuclear war? Sounds like the Sons of God knew war and could harness the mass energy of the atom way back when.
BASE104,
Rayleigh scattering or is it Mie Scattering, can't remember at the moment? The blue freq. of visisble light scatters the most when interacting with atmosphereic gases. Sorry, couldn't resist. Jeopardy.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 14, 2009 - 12:00am PT
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Base
Thanks for thinking on all these things.
I'm just saying knowledge and power are linked, particularly when the money for science comes from budgets concerned more with better killing than better living. Scientists are humans, should know better, and rebel rather than funnel into the death machine.
If everybody on the planet had a nuke, that would be the last moment on the planet. Power is dangerous and that power is more and more accessible.
We should hold religion accountable for it's abuse. Science too. There ought to be a science hall of shame for inventors of every new death technology. At least Nobel had the guts to make amends.
this quote
Shoot, I would bet my last dollar that many religious people here would believe something else if they had been born in another part of the world.
This is certainly the truth. None of us get a pass on seeking the meaning of Life and ourselves, God or no God. If you believe everything you've been told so far, you haven't been looking
Peace
Karl
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Dec 14, 2009 - 12:15am PT
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For WB,
http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Vimanas.htm
http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Vimanas.htm#Have We Shattered the Atom Before?—Signs of a Former Nuclear Age
There are too many details here that are frighteningly similar to an eye-witness account of a nuclear explosion—the brightness of the blast, the column of rising smoke and fire, the fallout, intense heat and shock waves, the appearance of the victims and the effects of radiation poisoning. More than half a century ago these ancient descriptions were considered mere fantasy—but with the advent of the Nuclear Age in 1945, suddenly the texts from ancient India take on a whole new meaning.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 14, 2009 - 12:16am PT
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Ever click "reply" and then get busy with something and forget what you were going to say.
opps.
Just thought I'd share that.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 14, 2009 - 12:20am PT
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Time brings all things to light ......
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Dec 14, 2009 - 12:22am PT
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BASE104,
My degree is in Physical Geography, and I teach Physics and Geoscience at the HS level.
I see the oilwell (where to drill) map is overlaid on Township and Range, 36 sq. mile grids. Actually, I'm just guessing about what it shows, but didn't you say you worked in the petro industry?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 14, 2009 - 12:25am PT
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Indictment of humanity, godless nor not
The last time I checked, The world's fastest supercomputer was devoted to modeling fallout patterns for nuclear blasts. Why? So we can figure out how to actually use these things and come out alive ourselves.
Isn't there something else we could be putting our treasures into? If there's no God, then we are just as bad.
Peace
Karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 14, 2009 - 12:48am PT
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Jan: Why exactly then, would anyone want to settle for a simple reductionist, mechanistic view of our lives, the power of our minds, our planet, our universe, the mystery of death and all the other things which are unexplained so far?
There is nothing 'simple', 'reductionist', or 'mechanistic' about the world just as it is, without mystical embellishment. Hell, the details of misfolding proteins in a Prion is, unadorned and by itself, sufficiently imbuded with enough wonder such that it requires no further mystery. And human behavior? Love, empathy, envy, jealousy, greed, grief, tool use, mathematics, commerce, prostitution, premeditation, foresight - all exhibited by animals. All are organically rooted in brains which have evolved more sophisticated capabilities over time. Anyone who thinks those are simple or unique to humans really hasn't bothered taking much time to learn enough to understand the power of nature is anything but simple, reductionist, or mechanistic.
And why the overwhelming and desperate need to project absolute answers onto the 'mystery of death'? What's wrong with it simply being an unknowable 'mystery'.
Karl: you were the one who said that the world was so bad that you didn't think a compassionate God could be responsible...
I don't consider the world so good or so bad - I consider much of human behavior and unescapably visceral realities of life (congenital defects for example) to lack empathy or compassion to such a degree that there simply can't be a sentient gods who aren't responsible for it all. The very lack of any sign of compassion is exactly the logical problem with gods.
Karl: Let take a completely materialistic, atheist view.
There is nothing materialistic about an 'atheist view'.
Karl: Sustainability? Who cares right? This is it!
You can't be serious! You've got that one completely ass-backwards. It's the folks who believe the Earth is simply an inferior and temporary waypoint - and one made by god for man to exploit - who are responsible for the majority of wealth accumulation and environmental damage in the world today. Wanna bet on the afterlife beliefs of the those who control 95% of the world's resoruces today? How about those of the ruling politicians of industrial nations and third world nations with significant resources? How about those of the board members and executives of the world's top 5000 corporations?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 14, 2009 - 12:50am PT
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Base 104-
I enjoyed seeing your topo which looks a lot like a modernistic stained glass window. My father was a geophysicist for Phillips and head of a seismograph (doodle bug) crew in Texas when I was 3 - 10 years old. We moved about twice a year all over that state and lived in Enid, Oklahoma, at one point.
All of my Dad's topos and seismographs were in black and white. One legacy of all his paperwork though, is that my sister and I can read topo maps with ease, so I was amazed when I taught Outward Bound, that it was the hardest thing for my students to grasp.
I heard the religion versus evolution issues at our dinner table from a young age as well, since my father fumed that the fundamentalists whose ranches he was shooting for oil wanted to know how it all worked and then got mad when he talked about the age of the earth and the whole process of forming petroleum!
Meanwhile, all that moving around and adjusting to new schools and friends, gave me an early interest in cultures, since parts of Texas are Hispanic and others deep south (segregated in those days), and others Panhandle cowboys. I've always figured it was the oil business that made a cultural anthropologist out of me, and I've always thought it normal to combine both cultural understandings of the world and science. Your discussions have really brought a lot of childhood memories to mind. Thanks!
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BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
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Dec 14, 2009 - 01:16am PT
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To make this sort of a climbing thread, I will admit a secret.
One time I was really out of shape and hadn't been climbing much. I had to grab a sling to rest on Outer Limits.
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BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
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Dec 14, 2009 - 01:22am PT
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That's OK. The jeering session was sort of hellish anyway.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 14, 2009 - 01:46am PT
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HealyJ
I doubt we'd find whatever the pledged beliefs of those top execs and politicians are, that either of us would support how they act. Religious faith can be skin deep. Actual actions betray the selfishness and lack of real faith of a man.
You write
There is nothing materialistic about an 'atheist view'.
Yes, this is indeed the case but I perhaps used my words wrongly. I'm saying that the atheist view means that everything is just plain materials! We are just mass and chemicals, put together by evolutionary chance. Our happiness and nobility are our own games, played and extinguished in time.
You might have noble goals about the future and sustainability, I believe they are an inheritance from your inner spirit. They are not inherent in the makeup of a material being who will cease to exist at death.
I have trouble thinking anyone who is actually atheist would ever consider climbing. We have an innate sense that death is not the end. If everything stops forever if you deck, why climb? Too high a risk, no reward could compensate. We all know intuitively death is not the end or we wouldn't climb. It's madness!
Peace
Karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 14, 2009 - 02:33am PT
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We have an innate sense that death is not the end.
You keep making assertions like this that, I for one, do not believe at all. I believe what you call an 'innate sense' is simply a common sign of acculturization. Now I have no problem if you want to make the case that ego has a hard time with the prospect of death being the end.
I have trouble thinking anyone who is actually atheist would ever consider climbing.
So you only climb because you always have a celestial belay. Duh - of course - all this time Werner has only had the appearance of free soloing! It's all a matter of risk perception and climbing is by far one of the least risky things I do in life.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 14, 2009 - 02:57am PT
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Base - pretty much on the money.
The production of 3D Proteins from amino acid chains is about as mysterious as the universe comes. At one point I somewhere read that some proteins fold into wildly complex shapes in a speed that represents the fastest known unit of information. To give you an idea of the scope of the complexity, the largest and fastest supercomputers we'll have five years from now will only be able to model the most trivial of folds and probably take days to do that. Also, if we can't find and predict intermediate folding states then to sort through all possible folds from the starting amino acid chain would require an astronomical amount of time.
"The computational effort required to study protein folding is enormous. Using crude workload estimates for a petaflop/second capacity machine leads to an estimate of three years to simulate 100 microseconds [of folding]."
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 14, 2009 - 03:29am PT
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HealyJ wrote
So you only climb because you always have a celestial belay. Duh - of course - all this time Werner has only had the appearance of free soloing! It's all a matter of risk perception and climbing is by far one of the least risky things I do in life.
Duh. ask Werner why he's not afraid to deck! I used to solo a lot. It wasn't that I was assured of not falling, although I had intuition that I wasn't going to die. It's also feeling that if I did deck, then Life in some form would go on for me.
Ironically since we're talking about this, an astrologer in India had predicted two years ago that I would suffer an ankle or shoulder injury around this time. Boom, ruptured my achilles. I didn't intent the piece to blow. Never ever been this injured before.
When it's your time...it's gonna get you somehow.
as for climbing being "one of the least risky things you do" let me quote you from the X rated thread
One recent route which I've repeated twice has once pitch with a crux consisting of a structure of three interconnected loose flakes where you have to 'set' the two flakes on the right to lock or anchor the one on the left into place and then use it exclusively to pull the crux. The pro below it is ok, but it's an overhanging section above a slab and so it has an R rating for both the potential for pulling the three flakes down on yourself and for the possibility of a slab fall if you and you belayer aren't paying real good attention to the slack situation.
I don't know what all these more hazardous things you do Joe but the ideas scare me. Be careful bro because if you make one mistake. That's it!
;-)
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 14, 2009 - 04:19am PT
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Too funny
Probably some particle physicists get inspired by some weed but then have to quit so they can remember all that complex stuff!
My problem is the word "faith." I can't quite stomach that word.
It's a word, like Love, that means different things to different people.
Fact is, you have all kinds of faith in all kinds of things. Faith is the part of your worldview that you believe enough to bank on. You can't pretend it and have that do any good.
Beyond that, we're talking about 'hope'
Peace
Karl
edit
I didn't realize I could die until some time later.
I didn't imagine any less from somebody with a handle like yours
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 14, 2009 - 04:50am PT
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Well, driving is by far the most dangerous thing I do. I also gave up riding a bike in town as far and away way to dangerous even in bike-friendly PDX. The fact that rock climbing is a considered, subjective activity without many objective dangers is what makes it relatively safe even on R-rated routes (X-rated, I have to give you).
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 14, 2009 - 04:58am PT
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Objective dangers...Yeah, rockclimbing beats high altitude mountaineering , which is a faith based activity if there ever was one
PEace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 14, 2009 - 05:51am PT
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Rox
I see that you have genius in you but don't read the taco closely enough to catch your statement when you first made it.
Tell us your story, and your impressions and we'll burn you at the stake as soon as that is legal again
;-)
Seriously what do you have for us? Jesus said the way in narrow no? Too many believers to fit through "narrow"
Peace
Karl
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Dec 14, 2009 - 09:43am PT
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Rokjox,
Sometimes those with afflictions are the most gifted of thinkers.
Relax, I miss turns all the time driving because my mind is somewhere else thinking. My wife and kids hate it when I do that.
But my wife can't remember at all where she puts things. Can't begin to tell you how irratating that is. So my wife and I are even.
Einstein was attributed to all kinds of mental problems and social shortcomings.
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 14, 2009 - 10:29am PT
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Rokjox,
I believe you...I think it is awesome and would actually like to hear more.
I have heard from God on more than one occassion, audibly, LOUDLY, and I usually hesitate to talk about it. There has been the "still small voice" but at least twice it was a BIG, loud interruption of my thoughts (which were elsewhere at the time!) and abrupt enough to make my whole body snap to attention! I think it would be totally cool to actually see Him!
I am very interested to hear about the experience. It is too bad that Christians have not been open to hearing about this. I do think that over the last ten years or so that others are becoming more vocal about their own experiences, but like you, had previously hesitated to say anything for fear of being rejected. I've had people say, red-faced, "Wow, I have never told this to anyone, but..."
I think that our knowledge of God is expanding all the time. As more people read the Bible and understand it and share their understanding, and we see, through science, the complexities of the universe, we know more about Him than previous generations.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 14, 2009 - 10:53am PT
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I teach Asian religion and Asian philosophy courses to the U.S. military and I can tell you from a couple of decades of experience that the students who have had the most spiritual/psychic experiences are those who work in military intelligence.
Of course they can not speak about these experiences in class because of their security clearances so I hear about them after class on a one to one basis. A few times I have received final papers which they asked me to shred after I had read them, as they had the potential to ruin their careers.
This goes along with the theory that the human race is slowly evolving to a higher level of understanding, and those who are more intelligent spontaneously experience things which others have to spend many years in meditation to see.
Alternatively, one could say, that intelligence,especially creative intelligence, is the result of looser controls on brain biochemistry and electrical energy than "normal" people have, and thus the more intelligent and creative see, hear, and feel beyond the average as well.
Of course the stigma involved in not being able to discuss these experiences also demonstrates the censorship of science and scientists in our society, the very thing they accuse the religious people of.
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 14, 2009 - 10:57am PT
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Karl is right on when he says we all have faith in different kinds of things.
You have faith that your drinking water is safe. (bottled or not!)
You have faith that the US inspectors have done their job properly and that your meat is free from the prion that causes mad cow disease.
You have faith that your mechanic put in new brake pads, and remounted your wheels properly.
You have faith that your kid's school bus driver is a good person.
You have faith that the person who placed that anchor ten years ago did it properly.
We place our faith, every day, in many small, unseen things.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Dec 14, 2009 - 01:38pm PT
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Rokjox,
Honestly, I would like to hear what you experienced. What did you see and what did you hear? What did he say? How old where you again when you experienced this?
Jesus can do whatever he wants, he has that power. But do not be too hard on Christians, like scientists or "doubting Thomases" they want proof and sometimes your or my experiences will not substitute. Everyone wants to see it for themselves before they believe, well at least many people do.
Also know that true Christians will compare your experience to what they know to be true in the good book, The Bible. If it contradicts the good book, they will dismiss your experience. Doesn't mean it didn't happen. The good book says Lucifer (Satan) can appear as an Angel of Light. The good book also instructs us to test the spirits to see whether they are of GOD. Angels behave a very certain way throughout the Bible, Fallen Angels also behave a very certain way and differently.
You have come this far admitting that you have had this experience, it wouldn't hurt to give the details and finish telling your experience. Did his face look similiar to the image in the Shroud of Turin?
Honestly, I would like to know what you experienced. I'm being truthful and up-front really.
Glenn Simpson
(aka Klimmer)
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MH2
climber
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Dec 14, 2009 - 02:05pm PT
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So what does Jesus look like Rox?
Yes. The facts, please.
I like that you opened up a little chink between atheism and religion with your 90% chance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_D._Unwin
healyje,
I think that the Steve Unwin book, The Probability that God Exists, is where I got the connection between evil and free will. I agree with you that there is no necessity for one to be unable to exist without the other.
I thought I had come across that statement in Catholicism for Dummies, but on looking I was surprised to find neither good nor evil in the index. Free will is mentioned a few times. For example:
"Free will is sacred. God never forces you against your free will."
"Part of Catholic theology is the Universal Salvific Will of God, which is a way of saying that God would like everyone, all men and women, to join him in heaven. Men and women have free will, though, so he offers the gift of grace, but men and women must freely accept and then cooperate with it."
I wouldn't want to be guilty of:
"...heresy is the denial of a revealed truth or the distortion of one so that others are deceived into believing a theological error."
Catholicism has many very good qualities, but they don't include believability.
But be aware, Rox, because I have specific detailed info on Jesus vetted by the Popes.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 14, 2009 - 03:07pm PT
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They don't look at the facts. They look at their machines.
They only look at their defective machines.
Christ is everywhere and never ever left and always exists as everything in his impersonal form.
All fools and rascals speculating it must be this or maybe that or I think this or that.
Tell them to go behind the building and you'll see the giraffe and they never go but keep saying well according to my data, according to my machine, according to my models, theories, blah blah blah.
But they never go all talk and no go.
Rascals all of them, and then mislead everyone ......
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 14, 2009 - 03:13pm PT
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Romans 8:1-11, There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
God's Everlasting Love
Romans 8:31-39, What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written,
“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Edit; Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.1) By John MacArthur
http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 14, 2009 - 03:19pm PT
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Gobee, constantly posting up that stuff pretty much reinforces the view of religion is just dogma packaged so that adherents don't have to think for themselves.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 14, 2009 - 03:35pm PT
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The rascals think they have a lock on thinking.
This is their big defense, "Our mental speculations are the current models".
Just see how smart we are and how good at thinking we are.
We all get together and rubber stamp PHD on the big thinker's forehead.
Still they never go nor went.
The master tells the big thinker to go clean the toilet and the big thinkers says I can't do that I'm a PHD. That's for the maid.
The master (material nature) gives the big PHD a big boot up the anus.
Still they can't see.
Tick tick tick tick every second goes by and the big thinker misleads "In the future we will know" tick tick tick the knowledge is right there in front of them during each tick.
Still they can't see.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 14, 2009 - 03:43pm PT
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Lacking a PhD and having cleaned well a litany of toilets, I believe I have the credentials to state conclusively that - tick, tick, tick, tick - in the future we will know that much more about how much more we don't know that much about.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 14, 2009 - 03:45pm PT
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This is their big thinking I believe
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 14, 2009 - 03:46pm PT
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As opposed to the conceit of knowing?
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dirtbag
climber
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Dec 14, 2009 - 03:48pm PT
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As opposed to the conceit of knowing?
Good word: "conceit."
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 14, 2009 - 03:54pm PT
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Yes the original thinker is all knowing.
Free from all material contamination.
Modern thinker with no connection to the original thinker all speculator.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 14, 2009 - 04:13pm PT
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Gobee does not always give attribution for the texts he is publishing. It is still probably John MacArthur’s daily bible reading, which can be purchased in hardcover. These materials are the output of an organization called “Grace to You” and are being produced today.
The following is reproduced from MacArthur’s web site and lists many complaints about all the false teaching nowdays of christian dogma.
Many of us on ST have been complaining about false teachings, heresy, and latter day disciples so we seem to have, sort of, an agreement with Mr. MacArthur.
For your edification.
Start quote:
Monday, December 14, 2009
Blog Home
Unholy Trinity
Friday, December 11, 2009
John MacArthur
I don't watch much television, and when I do I generally avoid the Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN). For many years TBN has been dominated by faith-healers, full-time fund-raisers, and self-proclaimed prophets spewing heresy. I wrote about the false gospel they proclaim and the phony miracles they pretend to do almost two decades ago in Charismatic Chaos (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1992. See especially chapter 12). I had my fill of charismatic televangelism while researching that book, and I can hardly bear to watch it any more.
Recently, however, while recovering from knee-replacement surgery, I decided to sample some of the current fare on TBN. From a therapeutic point of view it seemed a good choice: something more excruciating than the pain in my leg might distract me from the physical suffering of post-surgical trauma. And I suppose on that basis the strategy was effective.
But it left me outraged and frustrated—and eager to challenge the misperceptions in the minds of millions of unbelievers who see these false teachers masquerading as ministers of Christ on TBN.
I'm outraged at the brazen way so many false teachers twist the message of Scripture in Jesus' name. And I'm frustrated because I'm certain that if these charlatans were not receiving a large proportion of their financial support from sincere believers (and silent acquiescence from Christian leaders who surely know better), they would have no platform for their shenanigans. They would soon lose their core constituency and fade from the scene.
Instead, religious quacks are actually multiplying at a frightening pace. One thing I discovered to my immense displeasure is that TBN is by no means the only religious network broadcasting poisonous false doctrine around the clock. The channel lineup I receive includes at least seven other channels whose schedules are filled with false teachers and charlatans. There's The Church Channel, Daystar, GodTV, World Harvest Television (LeSEA), Total Christian Television, and several others. Some of them feature blocs of family television programing and a few fairly sound teachers who provide moments of escape from the prosperity preachers. But all of them give prominence to enormous amounts of heresy and religious claptrap—enough to make them positively dangerous. And TBN is singularly responsible for kicking that door open so wide.
The continued growth and influence of TBN is baffling for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the thick aura of lust, greed, and other kinds of moral impropriety that surrounds the whole enterprise. A long string of scandals involving notable charismatic televangelists between 1988 and 1992 should have been sufficient reason for even the most credulous viewers to scrutinize the entire industry with skepticism. First came the international spectacle of Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker's moral, marital, and financial collapse. That was followed closely by the revelation of Jimmy Swaggart's repeated dalliances with prostitutes. Shortly afterward, an episode of ABC's Primetime Live exposed clear examples of deliberate fraud on the part of three more leading charismatic televangelists. Those incidents were punctuated by a score of lesser scandals over several years' time. It is clear (or should be)—based on empirical evidence alone—that preachers promising miracles in exchange for money are not to be trusted. And for anyone who simply bothers to compare Jesus' teaching with the health-and-wealth message, it is clear that the message that currently dominates religious television is "a different gospel; which is really not another" (Galatians 1:6-7), but a damnable lie.
TBN is by far the leading perpetrator of that lie worldwide. Virtually all the network's main celebrities tell listeners that God will give them healing, wealth, and other material blessings in return for their money. On program after program people are urged to "plant a seed" by sending "the largest bill you have or the biggest check you can write" with the promise that God will miraculously make them rich in return. That same message dominates all of TBN's major fundraising drives. It's known as the "seed faith" plan, so-called by Oral Roberts, who set the pattern for most of the charismatic televangelists who have followed the trail he blazed. Paul Crouch, founder, chairman, and commander-in-chief of TBN, is one of the doctrine's staunchest defenders.
The only people who actually get rich by this scheme, of course, are the televangelists. Their people who send money get little in return but phony promises—and as a result, many of them turn away from the truth completely.
If the scheme seems reminiscent of Tetzel, that's because it is precisely the same doctrine. (Tetzel was a medieval monk whose high-pressure selling of indulgences—phony promises of forgiveness—outraged Martin Luther and touched off the Protestant Reformation.)
Like Tetzel, TBN preys on the poor and plies them with false promises. Yet what is happening daily on TBN is many times worse than the abuses that Luther decried because it is more widespread and more flagrant. The medium is more high-tech and the amounts bilked out of viewers' pockets are astronomically higher. (By most estimates, TBN is worth more than a billion dollars and rakes in $200 million annually. Those are direct contributions to the network, not counting millions more in donations sent directly to TBN broadcasters.) Like Tetzel on steroids, the Crouches and virtually all the key broadcasters on TBN live in garish opulence, while constantly begging their needy viewers for more money. Elderly, poor, and working-class viewers constitute TBN's primary demographic. And TBN's fundraisers all know that. The most desperate people—"unemployed," "even though I'm in between jobs," "trying to make it; trying to survive," "broke"—are baited with false promises to give what they do not even have. Jan Crouch addresses viewers as "you little people," and suggests that they send their grocery money to TBN "to assure God's blessing."
Thus TBN devours the poor while making the charlatans rich. God cursed false prophets in the Old Testament for that very thing (Jeremiah 6:13-15). It's also one of the main reasons the Pharisees incurred Jesus' condemnation (Luke 20:46-47). It's hard to think of any sin more evil. It not only hurts people materially; it deludes them with groundless hope, deceives them with a false gospel, and thereby places their souls in eternal peril. And yet those who do it pretend they are doing the work of God.
That's not all. Almost no false prophecy, erroneous doctrine, rank superstition, or silly claim is too outlandish to receive airtime on TBN. Jan Crouch tearfully gives a fanciful account of how her pet chicken was miraculously raised from the dead. Benny Hinn trumps that claim with a bizarre prophecy that if TBN viewers will put their dead loved ones' caskets in front of television set and touch the dead person's hand to the screen, people will "be raised from the dead . . . by the thousands."
Ironically, one doesn't even need to be an orthodox Trinitarian in order to broadcast on the Trinity network. Bishop T. D. Jakes, well known for his rejection of the Nicene creed in favor of oneness Pentecostalism, is a staple on TBN. Benny Hinn has repeatedly attempted to revise the doctrine of the Trinity in novel ways, notoriously teaching at one point that there are nine persons in the godhead.
And yet evangelical church leaders typically show a kind of benign tolerance toward the whole enterprise. Most would never endorse it, of course. They may joke about the gaudiness of the big hair and tawdry set decorations on TBN. Ask them, and they will most likely acknowledge that the prosperity gospel is no gospel at all. Press the issue, and you will probably get them to admit that it is a dangerous form of false doctrine, totally unbiblical, and essentially anti-Christian.
Why, then, is there no large-scale effort among Bible-believing evangelicals to expose, denounce, refute, and silence these false teachers? After all, that is what Scripture commands church leaders to do when we encounter purveyors of soul-destroying substitutes for the true gospel:
The overseer must be above reproach as God's steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict. For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain (Titus 1:7-11).
Those who remain silent in the face of such grotesque lies may in fact be partly responsible for turning people away from the truth. Consider the testimony of William Lobdell, religion reporter for the Los Angeles Times, who once considered himself a devout evangelical Christian, but after doing a series of investigative reports on the moral and doctrinal cesspool at TBN; then "finding that his investigative stories about faith healer Benny Hinn and televangelists Jan and Paul Crouch appear to make no difference on the reach of these ministries or the lives of their followers, he [gave] up on the beat and on religion generally."
All those who truly love Christ and care about the truth have a solemn duty to defend the truth by exposing and opposing these lies that masquerade as truth. If we fail in that duty because of indifference, apathy, or a craving for the approval of men, we are no less guilty than those who actively spread the lies.
Share | Comments (62)
Posted by Bernie Loos | Friday, December 11, 2009 1:05 PM
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Mr. MacArthur,
Thank you for standing in the gap and shining the light of Truth on these heretics. I am deputy sheriff and police chaplain and working in the the law enforcement realm and these are the types of false teachers that are always brought up and mocked by the lost officers. It is sad, these lost officers realize that these individuals for what they are. However those who call themselves "Christians" or have been told they are "Christians" by some "church" leader or whose "salvation" was verified by a denomination's standard or man's doctrine, not the Holy Spirit, they are deceived and buy into these snake oil salesmen. But there in is the problem, they don't have the Holy Spirit of God and without the Holy Spirit to steer them into all Truth they cannot try and test the false spirits that appear as angels of light.
God's speed in your recovery and "Preach the Word". Thank you!
Posted by Terry Stroot | Friday, December 11, 2009 at 2:14 PM
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Pastor MacArthur
Thank You for allowing God and our Lord speak through you for only the Holy Spirit speaks the truth on this matter. Anyone who reads the Word can agree with you on these hucksters.
The Lord warns us all in 2 Corinthians 2:17
"Only those who, like ourselves, are men of integrity, sent by God, speaking with Christ's power, with God's eye upon us. We are not like those hucksters---and there are many of them----who’s idea in getting out the Gospel is to make a good living out of it."
God is giving us the responsibility to be salt to the world in these matters as His Word plainly states to the ears who here. To allow these false teachers to teach others wrongly is sin. God gave us the truth to give to those who can't see or hear Him by His Word because they don't have the Holy Spirit by being born again. We as Disciples of Christ must try to reach out, without fear, to all those who are blind to the real Truth.
We must all answer to God for what He has given us.
May you John continue to bless our God and Lord Jesus Christ and you are always in my prayers to be a servant to the Lord,
Terry
May God give you a speedy recovery on your knee as I am a floor layer and am having surgery Dec 16 so I will be thinking of you and know God will give me strength also.
We were in CA at your church, your first time back to preach after surgery
You always inspire us to study more and know the Truth
Posted by Ryan Rosene | Friday, December 11, 2009 2:42 PM
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Dear Dr. MacArthur,
Thank you for your stance for the truth and your willingness to stand-up to falsehoods in the name of Jesus Christ. Many times I see the effects of TBN and the other stations' message on my family and friends and I get frustrated by it and want to give up. But then you speak the truth and empower me to stand up and make my realize that I am not alone.
A lot of bible teachers may grab my attention but the message is not felt until I hear a message from you, R.C. Sproul, and John Piper. I pray that I may be half the men you guys are in Christ and stand for the truth no metter the rise in unpopularity.
Thanks for the inspiration. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year in 2010! May God continue to bless the faithfullness of Grace to You and your other minitries!
In His Grace,
Ryan Rosene
Posted by Paterson Thomas | Friday, December 11, 2009 at 2:58 PM
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I struggled with the error of this doctrine for two years. As a baby christian, I supported those ministries until I obtain a full understanding of the sovereignty of God. I felt like a total fool for beliveving such lies.I was so hurt and disappointed in myself that I stopped giving to the church for the last two years. I thank you Mr. McArthur for giving me a clear understanding through scripture. I've asked the Lord to forgive me and to give the spirit of discernment through the knowledge of his word. I am at full peace with myself and I promise that I will only support the ministries that are sensitive to right representation of the gospel and scriptures. I wish you well Mr. McArthur and I pray that the Lord blesses you with many more years on the pulpit.
11 Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers. 12 Their responsibility is to equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ. 13 This will continue until we all come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God’s Son that we will be mature in the Lord, measuring up to the full and complete standard of Christ.
EPHESIANS 4:
9 Notice that it says “he ascended.” This clearly means that Christ also descended to our lowly world.[c] 10 And the same one who descended is the one who ascended higher than all the heavens, so that he might fill the entire universe with himself.
11 Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers. 12 Their responsibility is to equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ. 13 This will continue until we all come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God’s Son that we will be mature in the Lord, measuring up to the full and complete standard of Christ.
14 Then we will no longer be immature like children. We won’t be tossed and blown about by every wind of new teaching. We will not be influenced when people try to trick us with lies so clever they sound like the truth. 15 Instead, we will speak the truth in love, growing in every way more and more like Christ, who is the head of his body, the church. 16 He makes the whole body fit together perfectly. As each part does its own special work, it helps the other parts grow, so that the whole body is healthy and growing and full of love.
Posted by Kenneth Haraughty | Friday, December 11, 2009 3:04 PM
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Dr. MacArthur,
It is a sad time we live in when people are willingly deceived. I know many so called "Christians" who are taken in by these false teachers on TBN. We seem to be in a time where people are more interested in hearing what makes them feel good instead of the truth of the Bible. These TV phonies pick and choose parts of the Bible to bend it to their liking. I am discusted by this blatent hypocracy. I am glad there are teachers such as you who are willing to stand in the truth and expose the lies of the enemy. I remember reading your sermons on the book of Jude which is an excelent teaching on how to spot these false teachers.
I hope you recover well, and thank you again for your courage.
Ken Haraughty
Posted by William Simpson | Friday, December 11, 2009 at 3:42 PM
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Mr. MacArthur,
This is one of the main issues I have written about in a book that will be released early 2010. I was unable to find representation for 3 years within the Christian publishing industry because of the content of my message, but finally, Yorkshire Publishing offered contract. I attended a couple of churches in Virginia and had the opportunity to meet many of the well known televangelists of today. Keneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin Sr, and junior, Charles Capps, Jesse Duplantis, Rodney Howard Brown, Mark Charona, T.D Jakes, Jerry Savelle, Leroy Thompson, just to name a few, and many more. For years I thought these men were God's generals, but by God's grace, I have come to realize just how misleading these men are and the damage being done to so many lives. I can only hope my book gives me the platform to educate the spiritually dumb, who think what these charlatans proclaim is the gospel, with the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. Thank you for your stand and for your unwavering commitment to proclaim the truth. You are not alone.
William Simpson
Posted by Mark Vogel | Friday, December 11, 2009 4:41 PM
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Would like you to knopw that I came out of this movement through your first book or I should say the tape series on the charismatics. a friend of mine had them and gave them to me to listen to and just transformed my life in regards to God's truth. Unfortunatley my friend went head first into the movement and believes lies that I once believe. This movenment of satan is dangerous and bl;asphemous to the truth and of God's true grace in Christ jesus
Posted by Arthur Horne | Friday, December 11, 2009 at 4:57 PM
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Dear Pastor MacArthur,
I thank are heavenly Father for the clear no-nonsense voice that He has given us through his Word and those like you who still have the spiritual boldness to proclaim the truth without apology. It gives me great joy to be a Grace Partner. Love your books, share them with many.
Love in Christ Jesus our Wonderful Savior, Art
Posted by Brent McFarland | Friday, December 11, 2009 5:11 PM
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John,
Thanks for the time you have spent with me (EI '06) and the direction that you have given. I stand with you and with our Lord as a ready and willing soldier in this war against the truth.
Brent.
Posted by Gregory Reed | Friday, December 11, 2009 at 6:12 PM
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Dear Brother (in the faith) MacArthur,
Thank you, with all my heart, for your exposition of the Bible. Thank you for clearly and completely explaining what the Bible says without compromise. It is because of your teaching that I can drink deeply from God's Word. May God continue to bless you, your family, and the ministry with which God has entrusted you.
Gratefully yours in Christ Jesus,
Kathryn Reed
Posted by Ann Dalon | Friday, December 11, 2009 6:16 PM
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Dear Pastor John, Thank you for being valiant for truth. I was once deceived and undiscerning, I came out of catholicism only to land in a cult, then into charismatic /pentecostal teachings. But thanks to your sound bible teachings I saw the light. I know you will keep preaching the pure gospel and you can be trusted. I pray the Lord send more like you to glorify Him. I pray daily for you and your ministry. I LOVE your Study Bible and read it through last year and reread the NT three times. I will read and study it through again this coming year. I am more hungry for Gods Word than ever before. I love your books and listen to the sermon on Luke 16:19-31 The rich man and Lazarus many times (No one I've ever heard expounds on it as well as you have! ). God bless you exceeedingly. thank you for all you do for His glory! Agape, Ann
Posted by Jay Stoms | Friday, December 11, 2009 at 8:16 PM
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I lecture in theology at the African Bible College in Lilongwe, Malawi. I don’t watch much TV either but I have been grieved on more than one occasion when I have caught students glued to the tube in our student center watching Benny Hinn. Although we spend our time teaching what our schools motto calls ‘the treasures of God’s truth’ (and I do so from a Reformed perspective) the worldwide influence of the so called ‘health and wealth’ gospel is astonishing. Africans, who typically lack what we Americans usually take for granted (nutrition, education, healthcare), are typically spiritually hungry. Unfortunately what they are all too often being fed is a steady diet of ‘health and wealth’ via TBN and others. Christianity is often intermingled with African traditional religion so that ‘faith’ becomes the magic that wards off the evil unseen spiritual forces and twists the arm on the otherwise reluctant God in Jesus’ name. These teachings have even infiltrated the main line Protestant Churches. I brought a guest speaker to a local Presbyterian Church recently were an elder in his pastoral prayer proceeded to bind a host of spirits including the ‘spirit of headaches’. Unfortunately for my three year old daughter, he neglected to bind the ‘spirit of chicken pox’ who attacked my little princess later that same day and persisted for two weeks. We continue to ‘press on’...it would be great if more influential Bible teachers would oppose this ‘other gospel’ more openly and aggressively.
Zikomo (thanks)
Jay Stoms
Say ‘hi’ to Brian and Anita Biedebach if you see him.
Posted by Bob Woods | Friday, December 11, 2009 9:05 PM
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Dear Pastor John,
GOD BLESS your intestinal fortitude in today's evil & hostile world to stand tall, "...being strong in the LORD and in the strength of HIS might." EPH 6:10
You show us, your flock, time and again, how to accurately "Put on the full armor of GOD, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil." EPH 6:11
You have taken me from a newborn babe in CHRIST JESUS to the point of not desiring, but absolutely NEEDING & REQUIRING for my daily sustenance, "...solid food (the meat)...for the mature, who because of practice have theirs senses trained to discern good and evil." HEB 5:14
I truly thank our precious LORD and SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST for allowing our paths to cross at Grace Church back on April, 2006, when I had the wonderful & humbling privilege to shake your hand and meet you this side of heaven before we are Raptured!
GOD has truly indwelled HIS HOLY SPIRIT in you for the past 50+ years preaching the GOSPEL and being true to HIS WORD, carrying out HIS Great Commission of "making disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the FATHER and the SON and the HOLY SPIRIT." MATT 28:19
We have both had to undergo surgery since we met back in April of 2006; for you, knee surgery, and myself, back surgery (Diskectomy) & another emergency exploratory Laporotomy just 15 days after the major back surgery (I felt like a hamburger patty getting flipped over)! :o)
Seriously, though, I want to wish you GOD SPEED on your Knee Surgery recovery. Also I want to wish you & your family a very blessed Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. And again, thanks so much for being such an outstanding witness and testimony for our LORD JESUS and not budging an inch in your BIBLE Expository Teaching and Preaching @ Grace Church for over 40 years now and being so genuine, faithful, caring, charitable giving to your GRACE to YOU Ministries!!
Your brother in CHRIST JESUS,
Bob Woods
San Tan Valley, AZ
JOHN 14:6
Posted by Toureno Taylor | Friday, December 11, 2009 at 9:10 PM
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I am so happy that someone with voice like John MacArthur has spoken up and out about a matter which has infuriated me for so long. It seems as if people who are in a position of authority and prominence within the church community have fail to speak up about the bad teaching which has been taking place for long on TBN. What I have seen over past few years, from watching TBN until it began to sicken my stomach is that Pastor used TBN as the platform for tithing. From this you hear following "sow a seed, money that is",which is another way of getting money out of people. Pastors who support this station, really eats it up well, and you see this practice in church being perpetuated. If this is not enough, they will make outlandish statements, about how God is going to bless you. God will bless us, but you can't buy a blessing.
Where is the SALVATION in this programming. All you here is people being manipulated with their words, and twisted doctrine. The latest buzz word is the "Word of knowledge"which also make them sound like they have a right to say any and everything other than what is in Bible. (Now that is Bold). I often wonder, how bold and brazen can you be.
As a Christian, a Father, a Husband, a Minister, a Black man, and someone who would be considered fairly well educated, you are not welcome unless you also parrot what is being spewed out from TBN. My last thought about this matter, is that within the many African American communities the teaching on TBN is dominant. I believe many are sincerely following this teaching, but they believe what they are hearing is true. My burden is many of these so called christian leaders are taking advantage of people who are giving their all to these charlatan.
Keep Preaching and Writing John MacArthur
Posted by Ru Forreal | Friday, December 11, 2009 10:31 PM
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So tell me John MacArthur, are you really any different than those on TBN? I visited your website and was warmly greeted by your shopping cart as I signed up and noticed that two of your featured resources were looking for money, while the other ones were gently persuading me that you are a reputable charity. This website is full of products you are $elling and I see that almost every page has a donation link looking for money. I admit that you are not up to the antics like those on TBN, but you seem to be busy about the bu$ine$$ of the go$pel. If you are going to point out the flaws in others shouldn't you have your own house in order first? You seem to have totally forgotten the words of Jesus. Did Jesus not say that "...freely ye have received, freely give." Matt 10:8. Did God charge you? I suspect that like others who are in the business of the gospel you will find an alternative meaning for this passage to justify your cozy lifestyle from your profitable business. Now if you would like to see real Christianity in action, go visit your local Salvation Army. Those folks are genuine. As for all your expensive materials, you can keep them. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
It was a good blog on TBN, by the way, but your version of commericalized Christianity on this website spoiled the message for me.
Posted by Tory Hooks | Friday, December 11, 2009 at 10:54 PM
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Posted by Tory Hooks | Friday, December 11, 2009 11:02 PM
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Posted by Tory Hooks | Friday, December 11, 2009 at 11:03 PM
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Mr. John MacArthur
Im from Tulsa Ok. where there is a building that is supposed to represent a church on every corner, but the word of Jesus Christ, is not being preached. I have warned and warned and warned people about this stuff even my so-called close bretheren, and its almost as if im on an isalnd by myself. This stuff is killing people everyday in my town. Every picture you have posted are talked about more than Jesus Christ. Bishop so and so said this and pastor this, it makes me sick to my stomach and it makes me cry at the same time. Right now i go to a church where Dr. Myles Munroe is the big name and the heresy teaching we have about the kingdom is so false that an unbeliever would know its false. Tithing is a big compulsion mechanism also here in Tulsa, ok. Where you are cursed if you dont tithe, I have been free from that stuff, ever since studying what it really is a "Jewish Tax". When you broke it down for me in an sermon you had i was blessed and free. I get looked at wrong at times because of me only being saved since May 2005. I'm a puritan at heart, and I'm black "WOW a black puritan, but the love of God has changed my life and with people like you that will stand for Christ and His word and a community of believers on this blog it encourages me to continue to preach a the word of God in season and out of season. John MacArthur, thank you so much for being that guy that will Go hard IV Christ @ all times.
Posted by Christine Ravert | Saturday, December 12, 2009 2:38 AM
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Pastor John,
Thank you for your committment to the TRUTH of God! Not only is TBN a wasteland of false doctrine, so are most churches, at least in So. CA. Your 40 years + of unleashing God's Word, one verse at a time, has provided real spiritual nourishment for those of us with a hunger to know God as He presents Himself in holy scripture. We have deep gratitude for your shepherding. May God bless your teaching for many years to come....or until He comes. I say you should teach through the whole OT after you finish the book of Mark.
Also, preach longer........1 hour isn't enough!!! You said you preached in Europe an hour and a half. We want that too.
Thanks for your faithful dedication to truth.
Posted by Rev. Steven W. Banas | Saturday, December 12, 2009 at 7:19 AM
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Dr. MacArthur,
Thank you for proclaiming the Truth!
Your faithfulness and dedication to God's Word is so needed in today's culture.
As a pastor myself over the years we have helped several who were greatly wounded from the hyper-faith, prosperity gospel. God led them to our church to minister to these couples who were so deceived by the lies of the charismatic teachings.
The first time we met at a evangelism conference many years ago, I was beginning my pastoral ministry, and you graciously signed my book with 2 Corinthians 4:5 "For we do not preach ourselves but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as bond-servants for Jesus' sake." (NASB) Anything different, anything more or less, is another gospel! ... and let him be accursed. (Gal. 1:8) God will judge these false teachers.
Again, God bless you, Dr. MacArthur. Thank you for your faithfulness to the Truth of God's Word, for we are sanctified by His Holy Spirit and the Truth!... for the Word is Truth! (John 17:17)
Posted by Jackie Starling | Saturday, December 12, 2009 7:21 AM
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Dear Pastor (General) MacArthur~
I was a follower of the TBN movement for 20 years and a believer of all their false teaching. I was young, stupid and deceived by the lies. I believed with all my heart what they preached and supported them financially for most of those years. But, what they promised never came to pass. I gave a great amount of money to these so called ministries and never received anything in return except their lies.
12 years ago I met my current husband who used to attend Grace Church before moving to Oregon and he shared with me all your biblical teachings. My husband has hundreds of your tapes and CD's from the past 30 years. The Truth you teach has set me free. Your teaching is so clear and easy to follow and understand.
Thank you so much for taking a stand for the Truth. Keep up God's good work. We are in this war together for the Truth.
We are fellow soldiers in the battle for the Truth. Phil and Jackie Starling
Posted by Tim Terry | Saturday, December 12, 2009 at 7:36 AM
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ru forreal
the salvation army recently compromised their heritage by embracing all "faiths" and other religions for the sake of ...add'l income streams maybe ??? I do not know their motive BUT I do know when the Gospel has been modified and the end results are always tragic for us sinners. Maybe GTY needs to look at itself, maybe make a change or two so as not to provoke people like you or send a message they never intend to convey. Maybe, however, we need to look at the whole body of GTY ministry and see it w/ understanding and not such a critical eye. Suggestions may be considered more quickly than harsh criticisms, maybe. I have followed GTY for nearly 30 years and it is solid, sensitive, and sold out to JESUS. Sorry the offer of good Bible helps for charge offended you. I do know that GTY helps, gives away, supports those unable to pay ...it is ministry you know. GODS grace to you today and GOD bless GTY and Dr MacArthur for biblical truth uncompromised. One Q, are you for real? I hope so in JESUS alone. God bless.
Posted by Daniel Flaherty | Saturday, December 12, 2009 8:09 AM
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John and GTY staff -
In response to RU Forreal I have been a listener to GTY since 1981 and it has been a wonderful tool that God has blessed me with to learn and grow in God's Word. Never have I been pressured or guilted into sending money. In fact for the past couple of years I have been able to listen to all of John's messages - from the oldies of 40 years ago - to the sermons of just a couple weeks ago - for FREE! Don't tell me that John and his staff are in it for the money. Thank you John and GTY staff - you have made a difference in my life that is incaluable. John - you have been a great role model in the faith for me and I know for my Pastor. If I don't have the opportunity to meet you in this life - I'll look you up in heaven. Thank you again! Maranatha!
Posted by Marsha VanderSpek | Saturday, December 12, 2009 at 9:05 AM
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Dear John,
Thank you for being faithful to God's calling on your life. I am a LONG time listener to GTY and am a partner. I was at Hume Lake Christian camp in the late 60's and you were the speaker for the week. So I'm so thankful to follow your lead in the scriptures via radio and GTY and have passed on GTY's link to many. John, it's been a long time coming for those on TBN to be exposed. But we've been forewarned by our Lord & Saviour that false teachers will come and have always been. Thank you for being and remaining on the 'straight and narrow' path. Soon and very soon we are going to see the King. It's a been such a blessing to know and trust that you continue to reveal the truth of God from the scriptures. Bless you & all at GTY...
Posted by Rodrigo Avila | Saturday, December 12, 2009 10:02 AM
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Thank you Pastor MacArthur for your sound doctrine and your boldness in exposing these charlatans.
Sometimes I feel that I am stealing from your ministry because you had sent me cd's and books for free. Besides all the videos and audio messages that you provide free of charge in this web page.
I don't even know you personally but I consider you my pastor and mentor.
God bless you
Posted by Bret Bellamy | Saturday, December 12, 2009 at 10:27 AM
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Dear Sir, I am encouraged by the sound defense of God's Word that you have consistantly declared over the course of your service to our Savior. You are an inspiration to myself that God still has men who are unashamed of the True Gospel of Christ. Thank you for your resources that are available through your website. These tools are invalueable to the preachers of our day who desire to stand in the gap preserving Biblical Authority!! I stand firmly in support of exposing error and false truth that is ravaging our culture today, by lovingly preaching the truth with courage and firmness........Keep on Keeping on!!!
Posted by Joseph Ortego | Saturday, December 12, 2009 12:06 PM
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Great articles. John MacArthur has always been bold in Christ to speak the truth. To ru forreal who I don't think is for real, I have been listening to Grace To You on radio and now on the internet for the past few years. Any one who listens or reads on a more then sporadic basis would know that there is a universe of difference in this ministry and most others, especially TBN and the like. They do indeed supply thousands of cd's, dvd,s and books, not to mention all the free resources that are available for downloading from the website, for countless numbers of spiritually hungry believers around the world. I count it a privilege to support this ministry. They are a clear voice in a dark world, expounding the scriptures which are able to make us wise unto eternal life.
Posted by Gary Orlich | Saturday, December 12, 2009 at 1:34 PM
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John, I wish you would write more on this subject & name names I watched the 700 club a few times & they cure headaches , backaches, and all kinds of phoney baloney plus if your down & out make a pledge and I guess you will get rich like the people they showcase on the show. I have only been saved 5 years, but Pat Robertson & the 700 club seem like a fraud to me. Am I the only christian who feels this way ?
Posted by Laneisa Jackson | Saturday, December 12, 2009 3:13 PM
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For years now I have had limited fellowship with my brother and my sister because of their membership at The Potter's House with TD Jakes. I always wondered why my sister and I had no more than a superficial fellowhsip since she has professed to be a Christian longer than I. When I heard John teach on discernment I understood why. We do not serve the same Christ. When I confront my family with questions about why they support this nonsense I am poo pooed.
In my painful personal eperience, the truth of the scripture that says "they are drawn away by their own lusts" is very accurate. The false preachers are in big trouble but so are those who prefer the darkness just in case they too can get rich.
Posted by Laneisa Jackson | Saturday, December 12, 2009 at 3:25 PM
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For years now I have had limited fellowship with my brother and my sister because of their membership at The Potter's House with TD Jakes. I always wondered why my sister and I had no more than a superficial fellowhsip since she has professed to be a Christian longer than I. When I heard John teach on discernment I understood why. We do not serve the same Christ. When I confront my family with questions about why they support this nonsense I am poo pooed.
In my painful personal eperience, the truth of the scripture that says "they are drawn away by their own lusts" is very accurate. The false preachers are in big trouble but so are those who prefer the darkness just in case they too can get rich.
Posted by Michael Maynard | Saturday, December 12, 2009 3:37 PM
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I have been a Christian for about 13 years now. I can remember when I first became a Christian thinking how bizarre these people on TBN were. Since this time, I have grown in my love, faith, and commitment to the Lord Jesus Christ. The ministry of Grace To You has been invaluable to my spiritual growth. I support this ministry monthly not out of obligation but because I know that the real message of the Gospel changes hearts and lives. There are very few ministries that I give to. This is because I want to know that the money that I give will be used by God in a real way to help men and women grow spiritually. I stand behind Grace to You 100% with my monthly giving, my prayers, and my thankfulness for being a good steward of the gifts they are given. I have no problem with GTY charging, if they choose, for materials that help people grown spiritually. I am pretty certain that people like "R U FOR REAL," who didn't even have the courtesy to leave a real name, but one made up, expect a paycheck for the work that they do to provide for their families. The ministry of GTY provides "FREE Downloadable" sermons (over 3000) that date back 40 years. I will stand behind a ministry like this!! They are truly one of the few who deserve it. Thank you John for all that you do. I pray for God's continued blessing upon you and the ministry of Grace to You. Thank you for solid, unapologetic, truthful, bible teaching of God's word.
Posted by Martha Tyler | Saturday, December 12, 2009 at 3:49 PM
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I would really like to know if Dr. MacArthur would endure having the other knee operated on, as opposed to sitting and listening to more of these false charlatans sermons. I think he would prefer to have surgery.
I am so glad so many people are encouraged by his close teachings to God's precious word. May our glorious Father in heaven raise up more men like him.
Posted by Elizabeth Anthony | Saturday, December 12, 2009 4:56 PM
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For me, TBN is only good for watching Biblical movies and Charles Stanley. I hope there is nothing wrong with Charles...
Posted by Juan Lopez Iii | Saturday, December 12, 2009 at 7:58 PM
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Pastor John, it is always refreshing and encouraging to hear you speak about topics such as these. Since 1982, I have had the privilege and honor to listen to you on just about every topic there is under the sun. I have been a soldier all my life. I was a soldier on the streets of Oakland. I have been a soldier for the United States Army. And I have been a soldier for Christ since 1982. I too get frustrated with these so-called men of God, that it makes me want to go out on the streets and round them up. But I do know that wouldn't be the way our Lord would want it...would He..?? But I don't mind going into battle for my Lord Jesus...call me if you need a soldier...thank you..!!
Posted by Lincoln Jacquett | Sunday, December 13, 2009 4:07 AM
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Pastor Macarthur, Thank you for standing up for truth and righteousness, I give God thanks for you and others like Allister Begg,R.C Sproul David, Jerimiah and others who are standing up for the Word of God , We here in Canada as been enlightend by the sound teaching of the Word of God through your ministry we have recently left the charismatic movement after spending my entire life in it, we are now in a sound bible believing church ............
Posted by Lincoln Jacquett | Sunday, December 13, 2009 at 4:07 AM
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Pastor Macarthur, Thank you for standing up for truth and righteousness, I give God thanks for you and others like Allister Begg,R.C Sproul David, Jerimiah and others who are standing up for the Word of God , We here in Canada as been enlightend by the sound teaching of the Word of God through your ministry we have recently left the charismatic movement after spending my entire life in it, we are now in a sound bible believing church ............
Posted by Melody Gellecanao | Sunday, December 13, 2009 5:43 AM
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That is why we constantly include you in our prayers, Pastor John MacArthur. You're the best preacher/teacher for me in such a way that you do what you preach & teach. You are right, Christ did not confront the government of Rome but the so-called 'men of God' of His time - Pharisees and Scribes. And so, like our Lord Jesus Christ, you are more concern on exposing lies such as the TBN's. Preach on, Pastor John; preach on!!
Posted by Rusty Smitheman | Sunday, December 13, 2009 at 6:36 AM
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Thanks to my LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST for your ministry. GOD has given us his WORD and men like you to help us discern the TRUTH.
Posted by Adolfo Picado | Sunday, December 13, 2009 6:52 AM
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Posted by Adolfo Picado | Sunday, December 13, 2009 at 7:05 AM
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Dear Pastor Macarthur,
My family and I are so richly blessed to have you as our pastor in Grace. My wife and I were believers in these bunch of charlatans at one point in our life. Mostly, we were very fond of Greg Osteen and Rod Parsley. It was not until we came to Grace that we see the pack of lies and heresies that TBN is spewing out and hurting most of us, the poor people.
Thank you pastor for being so courageous and bold against all these people. It's easy for many pastors to go with "the Prosperity Gospel", especially in this economy: however, I'm proud to say that I belong to a church where the TRUTH is taught and where people are not "pampered" into believing that being a christian means to "have it all" as if God was our vending machine and we could buy a miracle.
God bless you so much for teaching the Word of God, the way it was meant to be taught. You are a true inspiration for all of us and the pride of God, our father...
Posted by Melanie Owen | Sunday, December 13, 2009 7:34 AM
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Dear Mr. Macarthur:
Thank you for speaking against these false prophets and teachers. You are one of the few men who have the courage to speak the truth. Please continue what you are doing and preaching. It is so crucial, especially in these dark days in the Church to shed light to others. I believe that the Church has entered God's judgment because of her unfaithfulness and immorality. There will be purging to come. I pray many will come to see the truth. God bless you and your family. Merry Christmas!
Posted by Greg Tegman | Sunday, December 13, 2009 at 8:13 AM
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Posted by Chip Boughner | Sunday, December 13, 2009 9:00 AM
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Dr. MacArthur,
While I disagree with the Calvanist doctrine you often promote, I do especially appreciate this blog and exposing these false techers who are, "...making merchandise..." (2Pet2:3) of so many sincere but infant believer's and those who may never, "...come into the knowledge of the truth." (2Tim2:4) due to the false gospel promoted by these heretics. I have found sisters and brothers in the congregation I attend who give creedance to these charlatins - though the church I attend is a bible based, Christ center, expository teaching fellowship, there just appears to always be some who are looking to "experience" God in some subjective way instead of just taking HIM at HIS Word. Certainly we are in the time of Laodicea and for many Jesus stands at the door and knocks, because He is outside the body of some who, "...have a knowledge of God but do not glorify Him as God."(Rom1:21). Thank you for this message, please do not grow weary of standing against these false teachers.
Posted by John Anderson | Sunday, December 13, 2009 at 1:50 PM
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First a note to the note posted by Ru Forreal . It would certainly be desirable for all people to find the truth before stating comments like these. In fact Dr McArthur’s Ministry is one of the best and contrary to your opinions is not looking for handouts like many other ministries. If you care to take a bit of time to find the truth, here are some links that provide almost endless resources that are free... all from John's Ministries. I don’t know of any other ministry that does this and preaches the biblical truths. I would think that if you listened to even 10% of these you would have a very different mindset.
https://www.tms.edu/Media.aspx
https://www.tms.edu/Media.aspx
https://www.shepherdsfellowship.org/Resources.aspx
http://www.gty.org/Resources/
Second, be realistic. All of these resources are put together and made available “free”… at a price. Any organization has overhead costs that can’t be avoided. After looking at these free resources you would do well by donating to maintain and extend these ministries.
Third, we live in a small community south of Mt. Rainier in Washington State. We have no direct [removed word]ion to FTY. These resources are our main source of learning God’s Word. Truth is hard to find in most of the main-line denominations. Dr. John MacArthur is a voice of truth is a culture that chooses to ignore truth. Look around a bit and compare the “normal” life style in this nation to a biblical life-style that John promotes.
And Fourth, this articles is “spot on.”
Posted by Samuel Beera | Sunday, December 13, 2009 3:45 PM
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Dear Pastor John,
I pray that you have a speedy recovery from the surgery. I thank God, our wonderful Almighty, for your passion and zeal in preaching the Word of God. You have been and continue to be a major influence on my understanding the Bible, through the Holy Spirit.
I have always admired your boldness through Christ in standing for the truth. I agree with your blog about the "health and wealth doctrine" of many televangelists. They are going to stand before the Just Lord in judgement.
God bless and prosper your ministry which makes all your message free. I understand that your ministry needs finances to meet the costs it incurs.
May the peace and joy of our coming Christ be upon you, your family and your ministry.
Posted by David Montague | Sunday, December 13, 2009 at 6:43 PM
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Pastor MacArthur,
I too am a Police Officer and President of our local chapter of the FCPO (Fellowship of Christian Peace Officers). I can relate to Bro. Loos on the facts that many Police Officers develop a bias towards Christians due to the negative views they witness that contradict sound doctrine. I also want to thank you for your stance for the Gospel. Collectively and prayerfully we can make a difference for the true doctrine of the Bible! I have only been following your ministry for about six months now, but, wow, what a blessing it has been! During this time my faith has grown and my knowledge of the Bible has exploded! I as well will be praying for your recovery from surgery.
God bless,
David Montague
Posted by Johan Schmidt | Sunday, December 13, 2009 10:08 PM
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John,
Thank you for being faithful and true to God's Word. Thank you for being humble and realising that you are just a 'clay pot' carrying the message and not accepting all this thankful praise from people as 'your' thanks.
All we can be is obedient to God, humble and thankful for His grace.
God bless
Johan
Posted by Greg Tegman | Sunday, December 13, 2009 at 11:11 PM
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Posted by Greg Tegman | Sunday, December 13, 2009 11:15 PM
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To Elizabeth Anthony, In regard to Charles Stanley, There has been some debate about a few things he teaches. Unless he has since changed views on the topics of repentance and lordship in regard to salvation, there are significant differences between himself and MacArthur. The last thing I wish to do is speak untruth. I will repeat that further down. Here is what I pick up from Stanley; We are to repent of who He (Jesus) is because repentance of sin is a work. And works cannot be part of the initial process of becoming a Christian. Similarily, making Him Lord of our life comes after as well. Then there is something I have heard him say about carnality in the Christian life. As if one can claim to be a Christian and habitually continue to sin to the fullest the rest of their life because he is secure in Christ. Thus leaving out the fact that this continued on going sin could be evidence that he or she is not a Christian in the first place. I may have heard some of this wrong,but that is what it sounds like to me. Forgive me if I am wrong, and if I am,correct me. I do not wish to present false witness. I actually like Stanley and I think he is sincere,but,at least there is a lack in clarity on these things. Steer me straight if I heard incorrectly please.
Posted by Eric Hohler | Monday, December 14, 2009 at 6:33 AM
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Posted by Eric Hohler | Monday, December 14, 2009 6:41 AM
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I thank God for GTY and I'm thankful that all the sermons are free. Many local churches have failed to sanctify because unfortunately, they too love money (that’s why they preach tithe, they worry more about money than the people they are to shepherd, its probably why they compete against each other to gain “market share” and why they don't make disciples). Many local churches leave baby Christians to raise themselves, the only thing they will teach is tithe in order to afford a bigger building, they market themselves to get more giving units to expand or pay off the big building. It is sad that you have to go online to get solid preaching, but we can’t say we weren’t warned (2 Tim 4:3-4 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.)
This is why there is a lack of biblical discernment. This is why people are so susceptible to being lead away by false teaching.
Posted by Rey Millares | Monday, December 14, 2009 at 7:33 AM
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Mr. MacArthur thank you so much for defending the truth,andnot keeping silint about all these false teachers, that all they do is mislead people from it.
I thank God every day for leading me and my wife to GTY, which is indeed a blessing in our lifes for its verse by versr bible teaching, and the preaching of the true gospel of our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ.
P.S. Also thank you so much for your latest book " The Jesus you can't ignore , what a great book , which also exposes false teaching and all that sugar coating preaching that is going around today. Sir may the Lord bless you , your family and your ministry. thank you.
Rey and Daisy
Posted by Chris Land | Monday, December 14, 2009 7:45 AM
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Sometimes TBN should be called The Totally Blasphemous Network.
Posted by Barry Koh | Monday, December 14, 2009 at 7:47 AM
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Pastor John,
Some 15 years ago and until recently, I would not touch anything written by you. In fact I hated it. That was when I was deep in the word faith teachings. But now I have discarded the teachings of that different gospel for the one that the apostles taught. While I still cannot comprehend Calvinism, I have nevertheless learnt enormously from your teachings.Thank you so much for making your resources available for free . I regularly forward your articles to many of my friends and informed them about your website.The best way to combat false teachings is to expose them and at the same time disseminate freely God's word as your website is doing. I will pray for the work of your ministry.
Posted by Marie Lambert | Monday, December 14, 2009 8:07 AM
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Pastor John,
Thank you so much for this article. I am a fairly new Christian and from the moment I came to the faith and started looking at those types of teaching on television, I knew deep inside that something was wrong with it. It wasn’t matching what the Bible teaches. By the grace of God I heard you speak on the radio one day and was so touched by your teaching (because it was a breath of fresh air from what I have been hearing) that I started going to your website and listening to your teachings. Your teachings have helped me develop SO MUCH as a Christian and understanding of the Bible. THANK YOU SO MUCH. You are God’s gift to people like me.
Posted by Greg Tegman | Monday, December 14, 2009 at 8:42 AM
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I know that the primary focus of this article is in regard to these charismatic heretics. But,I just want to again, bring up the subject of easy believism in which,in my opinion is just as deadly. Charles Stanley and Charles Ryrie?. Your presentation is flawed. This attachment below is from Grace To You. I will leave you alone now Elizabeth. I see you as a sincere person wanting the truth.
PDF | Email | Print | Share | Download: High Quality | Low Quality An Introduction to Lordship Salvation Code: A114
What follows is from the Grace Community Church Distinctive on LordshipSalvation . It was adapted from John MacArthur's material on the topic of lordship salvation, and serves as an excellent introduction to the subject.
The gospel that Jesus proclaimed was a call to discipleship, a call to follow Him in submissive obedience, not just a plea to make a decision or pray a prayer. Jesus' message liberated people from the [removed word] of their sin while it confronted and condemned hypocrisy. It was an offer of eternal life and forgiveness for repentant sinners, but at the same time it was a rebuke to outwardly religious people whose lives were devoid of true righteousness. It put sinners on notice that they must turn from sin and embrace God's righteousness. Our Lord's words about eternal life were invariably accompanied by warnings to those who might be tempted to take salvation lightly. He taught that the cost of following Him is high, that the way is narrow and few find it. He said many who call him Lord will be forbidden from entering the kingdom of heaven (cf. Matt. 7:13-23).
Present-day evangelicalism, by and large, ignores these warnings. The prevailing view of what constitutes saving faith continues to grow broader and more shallow, while the portrayal of Christ in preaching and witnessing becomes fuzzy. Anyone who claims to be a Christian can find evangelicals willing to accept a profession of faith, whether or not the person's behavior shows any evidence of commitment to Christ. In this way, faith has become merely an intellectual exercise. Instead of calling men and women to surrender to Christ, modern evangelism asks them only to accept some basic facts about Him.
This shallow understanding of salvation and the gospel, known as "easy-believism," stands in stark contrast to what the Bible teaches. To put it simply, the gospel call to faith presupposes that sinners must repent of their sin and yield to Christ's authority. This, in a nutshell, is what is commonly referred to as lordship salvation.
The Distinctives of Lordship Salvation
There are many articles of faith that are fundamental to all evangelical teaching. For example, there is agreement among all believers on the following truths: (1) Christ's death purchased eternal salvation; (2) the saved are justified by grace through faith in Christ alone; (3) sinners cannot earn divine favor; (4) God requires no preparatory works or pre-salvation reformation; (5) eternal life is a gift of God; (6) believers are saved before their faith ever produces any righteous works; and (7) Christians can and do sin, sometimes horribly.
What, then, are the distinctives of lordship salvation? What does Scripture teach that is embraced by those who affirm lordship salvation but rejected by proponents of "easy-believism"? The following are nine distinctives of a biblical understanding of salvation and the gospel.
First, Scripture teaches that the gospel calls sinners to faith joined in oneness with repentance (Acts 2:38; 17:30; 20:21; 2 Pet. 3:9). Repentance is a turning from sin (Acts 3:19; Luke 24:47) that consists not of a human work but of a divinely bestowed grace (Acts 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25). It is a change of heart, but genuine repentance will effect a change of behavior as well (Luke 3:8; Acts 26:18-20). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that repentance is simply a synonym for faith and that no turning from sin is required for salvation.
Second, Scripture teaches that salvation is all God's work. Those who believe are saved utterly apart from any effort on their own (Titus 3:5). Even faith is a gift of God, not a work of man (Eph. 2:1-5,8). Real faith therefore cannot be defective or short-lived but endures forever (Phil. 1:6; cf. Heb. 11). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that faith might not last and that a true Christian can completely cease believing.
Third, Scripture teaches that the object of faith is Christ Himself, not a creed or a promise (John 3:16). Faith therefore involves personal commitment to Christ (2 Cor. 5:15). In other words, all true believers follow Jesus (John 10:27-28). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that saving faith is simply being convinced or giving credence to the truth of the gospel and does not include a personal commitment to the person of Christ.
Fourth, Scripture teaches that real faith inevitably produces a changed life (2 Cor. 5:17). Salvation includes a transformation of the inner person (Gal. 2:20). The nature of the Christian is new and different (Rom. 6:6). The unbroken pattern of sin and enmity with God will not continue when a person is born again (1 John 3:9-10). Those with genuine faith follow Christ (John 10:27), love their brothers (1 John 3:14), obey God's commandments (1 John 2:3; John 15:14), do the will of God (Matt. 12:50), abide in God's Word (John 8:31), keep God's Word (John 17:6), do good works (Eph. 2:10), and continue in the faith (Col. 1:21-23; Heb. 3:14). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that although some spiritual fruit is inevitable, that fruit might not be visible to others and Christians can even lapse into a state of permanent spiritual barrenness.
Fifth, Scripture teaches that God's gift of eternal life includes all that pertains to life and godliness (2 Pet. 1:3; Rom. 8:32), not just a ticket to heaven. In contrast, according to easy-believism, only the judicial aspects of salvation (e.g., justification, adoption, and positional sanctification) are guaranteed for believers in this life; practical sanctification and growth in grace require a post-conversion act of dedication.
Sixth, Scripture teaches that Jesus is Lord of all, and the faith He demands involves unconditional surrender (Rom. 6:17-18; 10:9-10). In other words, Christ does not bestow eternal life on those whose hearts remain set against Him (James 4:6). Surrender to Jesus' lordship is not an addendum to the biblical terms of salvation; the summons to submission is at the heart of the gospel invitation throughout Scripture. In contrast, easy-believism teaches that submission to Christ's supreme authority is not germane to the saving transaction.
Seventh, Scripture teaches that those who truly believe will love Christ (1 Pet. 1:8-9; Rom. 8:28-30; 1 Cor. 16:22). They will therefore long to obey Him (John 14:15, 23). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that Christians may fall into a state of lifelong carnality.
Eighth, Scripture teaches that behavior is an important test of faith. Obedience is evidence that one's faith is real (1 John 2:3). On the other hand, the person who remains utterly unwilling to obey Christ does not evidence true faith (1 John 2:4). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that disobedience and prolonged sin are no reason to doubt the reality of one's faith.
Ninth, Scripture teaches that genuine believers may stumble and fall, but they will persevere in the faith (1 Cor. 1:8). Those who later turn completely away from the Lord show that they were never truly born again (1 John 2:19). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that a true believer may utterly forsake Christ and come to the point of not believing.
Most Christians recognize that these nine distinctives are not new or radical ideas. The preponderance of Bible-believing Christians over the centuries have held these to be basic tenets of orthodoxy. In fact, no major orthodox movement in the history of Christianity has ever taught that sinners can spurn the lordship of Christ yet lay claim to Him as Savior.
This issue is not a trivial one. In fact, how could any issue be more important? The gospel that is presented to unbelievers has eternal ramifications. If it is the true gospel, it can direct men and women into the everlasting kingdom. If it is a corrupted message, it can give unsaved people false hope while consigning them to eternal damnation. This is not merely a matter for theologians to discuss and debate and speculate about. This is an issue that every single pastor and lay person must understand in order that the gospel may be rightly .
Posted by Ru Forreal | Monday, December 14, 2009 8:56 AM
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To those who have responded to my comments and come to the defense of John, let me respond to you all. I have gotten tired of Ministers asking for
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jstan
climber
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Dec 14, 2009 - 04:26pm PT
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The full text was chopped off so I include the link here:
http://www.gty.org/Blog/B091211
I am sorry Locker that there is not more on the "nine basic tenets of christian orthodoxy" describing how to distinquish between "true believers" and "hasty believers". There is more on how even true believers can lose their faith and fall away, along with what shall become of them.
Conflicted, as some of us surely are, we must needs have access to ALL of this vital information.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 14, 2009 - 04:37pm PT
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And what about us Satanists? Where do we fit in?
Well, those satanists of normal girth can fit in just about anywhere, but if your "fat"trad moniker is accurate, you may never fit.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 14, 2009 - 04:38pm PT
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Jeff you did not read my post?
MacArthur is claiming Satan has moved, lock stock and barrel
inside the church!
The first thing any halfway intelligent devil would do.
As for yourself, you qualify on only one of these two criteria.
PS: (Intended to be dry humor.)
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 14, 2009 - 05:09pm PT
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"Gobee, constantly posting up that stuff pretty much reinforces the view of religion is just dogma packaged so that adherents don't have to think for themselves."
It seems to me that I'm being scientific and a student of the Bible to let it speak for itself! I try to find the parts that relate to things others have posted? My whole purpose is the point to God and that He is Holy, and Jesus is Lord!
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Dec 14, 2009 - 05:11pm PT
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"scientific" and "the Bible" in the same sentence..... now there's a laugher....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 14, 2009 - 05:25pm PT
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Yes the original thinker is all knowing
How do you know?
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 14, 2009 - 05:39pm PT
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These people on TBN are apparently modern-day Pharisees. They will be judged, but not by me, fortunately.
To be honest, I have never heard of this network but I don't have a TV, either. (Who has time to watch TV when there are rocks to climb?)
No wonder non-Christians think Christians are so screwed up. I would too, if I were seeing this "wealth and prosperity" BS. What a crock! And how NOT representative of the Gospel! If people were more familiar with what is actually written in the Bible, they would not fall for this stuff.
Jesus was poor. He calls us to follow Him. Read your Bible. (I'm going with Trip's suggestion a while back and re-reading John.)
Shoot your TV.
Go hang out with God. If you find Him in the outdoors, go for it. Sometimes, for me, when I am climbing, I feel like I am tracing my hands across the face of God.
Other times, of course, I'm just...flailing.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Dec 14, 2009 - 06:28pm PT
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And what about us Satanists? Where do we fit in?
The evil one
Well, Hell was created for the Devil, Lucifer, Satan (or any other name he is known by) and the Angels that followed him. So I would say Hell.
However, there have been some Satanists that have left their cults and have turned to Christ. Hope is not lost. Even at the last possible moment there is hope. Recall the thief who asked Jesus to remember him while hanging on the cross? Jesus, told him that he would be in Paradise along with Jesus.
It is your only hope. Seek GOD's forgiveness through Jesus (Yeshua), Fattrad.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 14, 2009 - 07:07pm PT
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"It is your only hope. Seek GOD's forgiveness through Jesus"
Klimmer with a "K", IS RIGHT!
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dirtbag
climber
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Dec 14, 2009 - 09:41pm PT
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MANY of us have SHORT attention spans...
Locker, does this help?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 14, 2009 - 10:11pm PT
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was Ardi the one who first created Hell?
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dirtbag
climber
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Dec 14, 2009 - 10:23pm PT
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And what about us Satanists? Where do we fit in?
I'll be joining you in the eternal fire pit. Together we shall roast marshmallows and have fun and spirited conversations.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 14, 2009 - 10:27pm PT
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you know that ose 'shmallow, chocolate graham cracker deals that most people call 'smores?
my mom used to call those angels on horseback....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 14, 2009 - 10:42pm PT
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jstan-
Good one!
Who'd have guessed you'd read MacArthur?
Mighty Hiker -
It strikes me as really hypocritical that educated east coast intellectuals, no doubt invested in the stock market, are now trying to blame part of America's economic problems on poor religious people in the south and poor immigrants? Prosperity Christianity can certainly be criticized, but linking it to the sub prime mortgage mess? What next?
Dr. F- Ardi was our female ancestor.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 14, 2009 - 10:45pm PT
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Rokjox-
I would be interested in hearing about your experience.
As I noted above and everyone studiously ignored, I have had many students over the years, especially those who work in military intel, who have had similar mystical experiences.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 14, 2009 - 10:50pm PT
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Prosperity Christianity can certainly be criticized, but linking it to the sub prime mortgage mess? What next?
I wouldn't know. I just thought it was an interesting article, and don't know anything about the writer. Over-consumption and over-borrowing certainly seem to be factors in the economic situation, whether or not related to religious beliefs. Rather a change from Max Weber's theory in "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism".
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 14, 2009 - 11:25pm PT
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What about Ardi, was he our ancestor?????
Dr. F, Science can't answer that. I think the most they can say is that she has the attributes we would expect to see in a possible ancestor, but not that she is for certain a direct ancestor. It's just as likely she was a member of a hominid lineage that went extinct.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 14, 2009 - 11:31pm PT
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Jan...
The Faith of a Centurion
Matthew 8:5-13, When he entered Capernaum, a centurion came forward to him, appealing to him, “Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, suffering terribly.” And he said to him, “I will come and heal him.” But the centurion replied, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof, but only say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I too am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. And I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith. I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” And to the centurion Jesus said, “Go; let it be done for you as you have believed.” And the servant was healed at that very moment.
The Death of Jesus
Matthew 27:45-56, Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” And some of the bystanders, hearing it, said, “This man is calling Elijah.” And one of them at once ran and took a sponge, filled it with sour wine, and put it on a reed and gave it to him to drink. But the others said, “Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to save him.” And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.
And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!”
There were also many women there, looking on from a distance, who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to him, among whom were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 14, 2009 - 11:31pm PT
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Gobee- "I try to find the parts that relate to things that others have posted?"
Your doing a great job, and I appreciate your posts confirming/reaffirming/clarifying/edifying and in some cases correcting through Scripture.
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable, for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16.
healyje- "So adherents don't have to think for themselves."
What a lame statement! As if Christians don't think. For instance Dostoevsky, or C.S. Lewis weren't critical thinkers! Or Copernicus, or Sir Isaac Newton for that matter!
I scored a near perfect score(missed one question because I didn't bother to go back and finish it)on the Standardized Analytical Reasoning IQ test in college!! That put me in the top 1% in the nation according to my college(SDSU)professor.
Many(not all) problems in my life were on account of my "leaning on my own understandings"!
I doubt if you even bother to read any of the Scripture that Gobee posts. Why? Do you fear it will somehow negate your love to hate it?
"When men are most sure and arrogant they are commonly most mistaken..." David Hume.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 14, 2009 - 11:41pm PT
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Regarding the Atlantic article:
I have a hard time with people who blame the poor and the immigrants for America's troubles. I think it's a double shame when someone from the upper middle class who writes for an East Coast based intellectual journal joins in.
There is so much blame to go around, why start with the poor? If she had wanted to do an article on the problems created by prosperity churches, that deserves to be done. If she had wanted to write about the American propensity for gambling at many levels, fine. However, in an era when Wall Street money managers walked out with hundreds of millions, it hardly seems fair to blame a small number of people at the bottom of society for the problems.
I am not a defender of the right wing, fundamentalist religion or the mindset of the deep south!
I am critical however, of those in privileged positions who abuse that privilege for their own gain, including reporters. To use an old Biblical phrase - To whom more is given, more is expected. I would have expected more from someone publishing in that magazine, that's all.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 14, 2009 - 11:47pm PT
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"I could speculate as to why those types would be more sensitive to mystical experience, but your regarded opinion would be more interesting."
Military people live with death! Climbers hang their asset's on the line?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 15, 2009 - 12:04am PT
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Base 104-
Temporary misunderstandings are an unavoidable feature of this online communication.
I have accordingly deleted the part of my thread that related to yours.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 12:06am PT
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I'm doing some critical big ass thinkin here
Yep ....
Some lame ass people that say there's no critical thinking can't think their way out of the grave.
That's why it's only one life and that's it for em.
They're stuck in a hole 6 feet under ......
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 12:17am PT
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And then they come up with this lame ass argument about DNA germs and bacteria.
Well my whole body is full of it.
Dead guys are full of DNA germs and bacteria.
But where did the guyin the body go? They have no clue and still they try and mislead the world that's all they have and in the future in the future in the future.
They been saying that for the last several thousand years.
The truth has always been right in front of em the whole time and they keep denying it there.
Blinder than any bat. Even bat has more brains .....
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MH2
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 12:20am PT
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Too good, jstan. First I thought, "This is as damning as reading up on religious history and a lot quicker." But began to worry about the quicker part.
Jan, no careful reader of this thread missed the X-Files-type reference. I thought you considered further comment to be possibly compromising to national security. If not, please give examples.
The thing is, as I see it, such deeply felt mystical experiences are not open to dispute. If someone tells you they felt something, the best assumption is that they did. But if you yourself are asked to take some action because of their experience you may legitimately choose not to.
I think it is wonderful that Karl senses a universal loving presence. I wonder why other people don't. He may say he was more open to the possibility, but that would have been part of his nature, before his experience. What I would like to see is a loving presence that can get into the heads of people who are not open to it and cause them to be more like Karl.
edit: bats have very good brains, Werner!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 15, 2009 - 01:06am PT
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Base!
My father lived for eighteen months after he had a massive stroke(brain hemorrhage) in 1989. Although he was brought up a Catholic and "religiously" got on his knees every night and morning and prayed, he had great difficulting in believing in a loving God. He had many questions similar to yours and others here. The two he had the most trouble with were "Why does He let the little ones suffer so" and "Who made God".
I will never forget the evening I returned home from bouldering(Mt Woodson) and was approached by my neighbor who informed me that he had been rushed to the hospital and would not make it through the night(according to the neuro Docs). And I had better hurry if I wanted to say goodbye.
I had always had faith that he would somehow come to believe(so did my brother). And as I drove down the freeway that evening I simply cried out with a broken heart to God "Nooo!" I immediately heard that would he would live and be saved. It was a voice(not audible)but I recognised it.
When I arrived at the hospital, I was fully assured of his survival and redemption. And told everyone so. The MD's (neurosurgeons, neurologists)nurses etc. thought I was either crazy or in denial(or both). To make a long story short(as per your request)he lived. MD's said it was a miracle!! And he did turn his life to Christ. Surprisingly on his own, for I said little in regards to the subject.
He did shortly there after take a bad fall at the nursing home and went back into a coma. My mother almost lost the house(Medical costs) and all I can say without writing a book is that it was a very bad 18 months. Decubitus ulcers and bed sores literally to the bone, infections and pneumonia...etc.
I went in every other day to help and be with him, as did my mother and brother on opposite days. No one could possibly know everything we went through(I'M sure you can relate). We just wanted God to take him home/Heaven. I can still here his nonstop moans of pain as I type this.
Finally after 18 months I broke down. It was a long night, and I am sure I cursed God and hoped I would dye at least once in the process.
The next day it was my turn with my dad, and just as I was about to leave, this old man, 99 yrs old, Just 6 days short of 100, asked me for a washcloth. He had been there about a week and had never said a thing. The nurses had told me the day before that he was dying of the most painful type of cancer that a man could die of and would not make it to his 100th birthday, just 6y days away.
I had long since given up on reaching anyone in the nursing homes. Not that I had made a great effort but I would pray for an opportunity and wait. With one lady three months of waiting before I even mentioned I was a Christian.
Well that afternoon I did say a brief prayer as I was leaving that went like this "Well Lord if You want to reach this guy You are going to have to do it."
So I give him the wash cloth he requested and, thinking this is my chance to initiate a conversation, I say "I here you are going to be 100 in five days and the nurses say you're going to make it"(I don't know why I said that). And he says "Oh I hope not, I am in so much pain...I just hope God lets me into Heaven!' My wife and I never joined a religion, we thought about it when we were young, but we never found the time. I just hope God lets me into Heaven."
And I simply told him that I had never joined a religion either, but that I had read that Jesus said that if we confess Him before men that He would remember us and confess us before the angels in Heaven. He said he believed that and asked to be led in the sinners prayer and I obliged him.
I pretty much forgot about it until the next day when my brother arrived home and announced that "I didn't know that old man was a Christian? He is telling everyone about Jesus" etc. etc.
It was at that point that I was hit very hard with the humbling realization that the Lord did have a purpose for keeping my father alive all those months. My father died at 2:30AM that very night. And the old man a day later.
I know many will say "Well if God is this, and if God is that why didn't He just let your father not suffer and get someone else to reach the old man"? etc. etc. Well like a very wise man once said..."The Lord works in mysterious ways!" Ben Franklin.
And I learned to never doubt what the Lord is doing in my life and the world!
Trip~
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2009 - 01:47am PT
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What a lame statement! As if Christians don't think. For instance Dostoevsky, or C.S. Lewis weren't critical thinkers! Or Copernicus, or Sir Isaac Newton for that matter!
Who is talking about the 1% edge cases? You're posting up original thought, is that something Gobee can't manage here, or is Werner right about needing a PhD? I definitely don't read his posts, any more than I'd be reading Greek Mythology, Tolkein, Anderson, or any number of other fictions if you started posting them too.
Werner, I have no interest in another life. But again, how do you know there is an original thinker who knows all?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 02:17am PT
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Then go rot in a hole.
There's no argument here, and discussion.
Step over the fence for 10 years then talk .....
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 15, 2009 - 02:19am PT
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jstan!
I am in full agreement with John MacArthur. I have read several of his books(I just finished "Standing Strong")and read/study from his website(GTY) on a daily/weekly basis. He is referring to two/three different areas, one being the "emerging church" and/or "seeker friendly church" and the "health and wealth" preachers.
I mentioned the seven churches in Revelations, and believe they are described there in. Nothing new! A sign of the times, if you will!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2009 - 02:31am PT
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Not ready for a hole (and hope I won't end up buried).
You're pretty good a spouting absolutes, but not very good at explaining how it is you know they're so absolute. Have to hand it to you there - so much better than science, which has its hands tied by the necessity of results being reproducable by anyone.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 02:36am PT
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Understanding the absolute truth is reproducible by anyone.
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GBrown
Trad climber
North Hollywood, California
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Dec 15, 2009 - 02:40am PT
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Wow! The length and depth of this topic are epic. I've glanced into it a few times previously but am finally in for my 2 cents!
I find that the best of people I know who are "scientifically minded" is reflected through what I consider to be their "spiritual qualities." I also generally find that the best of people I know who are "spiritually minded" is reflected through what I consider to be a "scientific quality" they have.
By "scientific" I mean that what a person progressively perceives / experiences of quantifiable existence is constantly being evaluated against past data in an ongoing search for concepts that explain/align the related data for understanding and utility.
By "spiritual" I mean that a person is engaged with experience / communication that concerns to a large degree relatively unmeasurable qualities to the relative exclusion of measurable quantities. This can also include extremely quantifiable perceptions obtained by unquantifiable means.
As practical examples:
Joe is "scientific," studied and works in the sciences, thinks in equations frequently, fascinated with applications of his knowledge to everything from bicycles to climate change. But the best thing about him is the sense you get from him that you are valuable, that he cares how you are doing, and that all of the things that reflect his scientific interests are governed by this overall caring and good will toward people and life in general.
Fred is "spiritual," studies spiritual/religious/philosophic materials of a particular kind, prays or meditates frequently, spends time on related activities and trying to help others in various ways. But the best thing about him is that he doesn't buy into a black/white, them/us routine, or hating existence as Evil while worshiping the spiritual as Good. He sorts out life around him in a very scientific way: absolutes are pretty much unobtainable, there are gradients of most everything, there is a lot to be understood and taken into account and there are opportunities to learn and understand things of a very practical manner every day.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2009 - 02:40am PT
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My god, from what's been said on this thread, and with no secret handshake, you christians must just have a hell of a time deciding who's a real christian and who isn't. To some it's not the churchgoers, Jennie claims it's all in the 'commitment', MacArthur claims to be able to spot false prophets, the catholics say it's the pope who decides. And we can guess what the televangelists would say. Damned if that isn't a lot of fingerpointing and maybe even religious evolution at work before our very eyes - survival of the purest or the purient? At the very least, I think we can definitely rule out Intelligent Design - I'd never hang anything this messy on that.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 02:47am PT
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That's the correct way to go Joe, don't be taking any sides until you test it for own self.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2009 - 03:01am PT
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...don't be taking any sides until you test it for own self.
But Werner, the damn christians can't seem to decide on what the original thinker originally thought. There are too many sides and that doesn't even get into hindu, bhuddist, or jewish sects.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 15, 2009 - 03:03am PT
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healyje!
Not realy sure what to say right now, other than I enjoy reading what everyone has to say and glad all are putting their 2 cents in! That is what life is about. Wasn't insinuating you were lame, obviously you are very bright. I was just saying that Gobee comes up with some real pertinent stuff from the Bible relating to and often supporting what is being discussed. Sometimes you have to look for it, or it might be in regards to what someone else was commenting on. Oh well.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2009 - 03:08am PT
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Werner - which of those check boxes above should I click for the absolute truth? I tried to google for it but got nine million hits (...must have to use the 'Advanced Search' option)...
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 03:16am PT
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You'll never understand it correctly that way.
Just like trying to understand climbing El Cap without ever having climbed.
Just look at LEB.
You have to come out of the dugout and step up to the plate .....
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 15, 2009 - 03:51am PT
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healyje!
How about a non-denominational church? Probably one near you!
To begin you have to be sincere. Only you and God can know that. Sincere and admit that you don't know for 100% that there is a God or not!
I believe God needs to convict you of your own need for Him. Take a close look at yourself. Have you ever been bitter towards anyone for instance.
Base has admitted he has fallen short in many ways. This is a good start.
Then admit it to God. And tell Him that you are not sure that Jesus Christ is God, but if He is I would like to ask Him into my Heart.
I would suggest reading the Gospel of John. Ask God to help you with understanding it. If you are sincere, and I am sure you are if you get that far, then He will. Those are all acts of faith!
I became a Christian at 8 yrs old, by such a simple act of faith as calling out to Him(Jesus) for help.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2009 - 03:54am PT
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Prabhupāda: Yes. Then what is the supreme relative?
The question really isn't "what is the supreme relative?" - the real question of interest is, "how would you know which relative is supreme?"
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 15, 2009 - 04:18am PT
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I think it is wonderful that Karl senses a universal loving presence. I wonder why other people don't. He may say he was more open to the possibility, but that would have been part of his nature, before his experience. What I would like to see is a loving presence that can get into the heads of people who are not open to it and cause them to be more like Karl.
Thanks for the kind words but I look at it like this:
I didn't expect such a loving, and perfect reality. I had been raised on anthropomorphic images of God who, for some reason, wanted to be worshiped while remaining invisible. In other words, a very neurotic one.
What I found was perfect love and acceptance.
It's true that people find what they are looking for. If you pray out to Jesus, a spiritual light or feeling may very possibly come to you and you assume it's Jesus. God comes to you in whatever form you can resonate with because God express through anything. Rarely would someone have a mystical experience when a being comes and says "I'm Lord Jesus Christ" which would be unusual anyway since he never called himself "Jesus" or "Christ" on earth.
But that's beside the point. I think this information about a Loving Divine Being important mostly because you can experience it for yourself with minimum faith. Since we are of the same essence of God (created in God's image, in the Bible) the essence of ourselves is also a great expansive unconditional Love. We spoil it by becoming wrapped up in our egos, personal histories and incessant trains of associative thinking. Learn to shut of the discursive mind and your real nature is revealed as much greater than anything you might have imagined you were.
Then something about God starts to make sense. Not our projection of an authority figure in the sky, but something closer than the closest to us, never separate from us, always understanding and accepting us from the inside.
Believing this does little. The thing is to quiet down and stare down the mind passively (perhaps watching the breath as meditation) until you start to break this decades long habit of thinking yourself to death, and see what peace feels like.
PEace
Karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2009 - 06:27am PT
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Then admit it to God.
Trip, Werner - Who's god? Which god? Jesus? Zeus? Amateras? Vishnu? Ra? Viracocha? Jupiter?
Entire civilizations rose and fell on the absolute truth of these relative supreme gods. The only thing that makes them 'mythology' is time. Given enough time we will be talking about christian mythology. Tell me one thing that makes Viracocha, Jupiter, Vishnu, or Ra any less THE absolute god than today's christian god? How should I weigh your word against the Egyptians? Or the Incas? Or is the absoluteness of god dependent on time and geography? Or is it your claim that they are exactly the same god? Gobee, is your god indistinguishable from Allah or Vishnu?
I think this information about a Loving Divine Being important mostly because you can experience it for yourself with minimum faith.
Karl - Why is a Divine Being - loving or otherwise - necessary for a person to experience a great expansive unconditional Love?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 15, 2009 - 08:15am PT
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healeyje-
Karl - Why is a Divine Being - loving or otherwise - necessary for a person to experience a great expansive unconditional Love?
It isn't. The Buddhist talk about expansive unconditional love as our own inner nature and the way of the universe without focussing on a Divine Being. Maybe you would be more comfortable with that way of thinking.
As for whether the gods you name are all the same God, I would say that they, like the religions in their name, are all glimpses of same God who is so much beyond our current state of evolution, that glimpses is all we get. Even so, most humans are not capable of understanding even these limited views.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 15, 2009 - 08:16am PT
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Marks of the True Christian
Romans 12:9-21, Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord. Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality. Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 15, 2009 - 08:35am PT
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Mh2-
No X-Files, no classified data.
I was talking about the fact that I work with people from all four services and many specialty occupations, and of all these, it's military intel people who have the most mystical experiences to recount.
The need for confidentiality comes from the prejudice against such experiences by the scientists and social scientists in charge of clearance evaluations. My students don't tell me anything classified, and as long as they talk about a recognized religion their clearance is safe, but if it is discovered that they talk about personal experiences out of the ordinary, then they would definitely be sent off to the psychiatrists and their clearances at least temporarily withdrawn.
Religious prejudice has done a lot of censoring over the ages, but scientists have and continue to do so as well.
Meanwhile, given the attitude of many on this thread, that believers in anything but a material world are some how mentally deficient, I thought it would be interesting to ask, how then are the people who score in the upper 3% of 300,000 IQ tests, the ones who have the most experiences.
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roadman
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 11:27am PT
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"There ain't no rules around here! We're trying to accomplish something!"
Thomas Alva Edison
That's the point of science. You whose aim it is to limit real science by putting your religious limits on it can go to the hell you so strongly believe in.
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roadman
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 11:30am PT
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"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless childish."
Albert Einstein
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 15, 2009 - 12:00pm PT
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Jan wrote
healeyje-
Karl - Why is a Divine Being - loving or otherwise - necessary for a person to experience a great expansive unconditional Love?
It isn't. The Buddhist talk about expansive unconditional love as our own inner nature and the way of the universe without focussing on a Divine Being. Maybe you would be more comfortable with that way of thinking.
As for whether the gods you name are all the same God, I would say that they, like the religions in their name, are all glimpses of same God who is so much beyond our current state of evolution, that glimpses is all we get. Even so, most humans are not capable of understanding even these limited views.
She said it very well. I agree. God doesn't need our brown-nosing. We need to untwist our hearts and minds. Whether we do that with a concept of God isn't as important as people think.
The heart of Buddhism doesn't deny a God, they just don't bother with one. The idea of praying to Buddha is a later affair and not a part of the original path. My feeling (although I'm not a Buddhist) is that Buddha just figured that talking about any God would reduce and confuse such a being into a limited concept that could be abused and anthropomorphized.
For Healyj's question more particularly, it seems to imply that we concoct a divine being to fit in with our philosophy. Nope. If no God was found, no God would be needed. The only reason I include talk of God is because that's a word that people use the suggests what I have found.
Sort of.
The source of this whole universe and beyond is so beyond conception and limited understanding that we can't help but muck up the idea of such a being. Mystics argue whether the nature of the this God is impersonal and completely abstract, or personal in a way we can relate to more humanly. My experience is that Both are the case. The divine is built into us and is able to reflect us at our own level, while simultaneously pervading the entire cosmos.
I definitely don't believe in a God that feels upset all the time at all kinds of people.
I suspect that many of the people hear, who are pissed off at the idea of a punishing, judgmental God and his self-righteous fan club, would breathe a deep sign of relief and bliss if they could taste the Love and Peace that is the spark of the divine within them
Peace
Karl
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 15, 2009 - 12:32pm PT
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Then again, what if this is all just dugout chatter that has no bearing on the real game?
Advertising signs that con you into thinking you're the one
That can do what's never been done
That can win what's never been won
Meanwhile life outside goes on all around you
Love is real. Compassion is real. Altruism is real. But why do these things need to be attributed to the beneficence of some variously-defined supernatural entity whose reality has never be proven, and whose posited existence has proven so very easy to turn into a ruthless tool of oppression, derision, resentment and spite, opposed to all the goodness and light it supposedly represents?
What if love, virtue, and all that are simply response biases that have, in reality, upped the odds of survival and the passing on of genetic information to new generations?
Is that really so horrible?
The only trump that religion can play is the unverifiable promise that our individual consciousnesses somehow survive the death of our biological bodies. Whatever. Gets. You. Through. The. Night.
Amen.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 01:13pm PT
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"Meanwhile, given the attitude of many on this thread, that believers in anything but a material world are some how mentally deficient,...."
If I have said anything that supports that belief, I apologise. What is my central difficulty?
The golden rule posits that it is a central "good" that we learn not to treat others as we would not wish to be treated ourselves. That rule predated christ and, and I think it formed the foundation upon which christ operated. If so the bed rock of christianity would be concern for others
and not the focussing of one's attention solely upon what makes the believer feel good.
If the present organized religions operated to produce this way of looking at life, I would have no criticism to offer on anyone's "beliefs."
I do criticise any belief system that encourages people to pass off to others their personal responsibility to make decisions affecting the common good. History is rife with "devils" who inserted themselves into religious organizations, assumed the role of making decisions, and who did great damage while advancing their entirely personal self-interest.
This very human tendency for "evil" to attach itself to "good" is broached in bible stories but these parts of the bible apparently are not being read. If they were, we would be hearing much more than we do of the "faithful" calling their leaders to account.
I leave with the conclusion there is a immense gap between what christ actually taught and what modern religious organizations are attempting to foster.
If so, the "believers" are not christians, whatever they may claim.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 02:00pm PT
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Yeah
Just go the cheap easy way, a pill or something, the lazy cheap way to get cheated.
Just read a book and do 2 pitches and you're now instructor and expert on climbing.
In this lifetime I've been climbing almost 40 years now and still am an idiot.
I've barely touched the the surface .....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2009 - 02:13pm PT
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I hear two votes for all gods are the same god; couldn't tell if Gobee thinks Allah, Vishnu, and his god are the same god. Is that the consensus, that all gods are the same god? It would seem if that's the case, then throughout our history a lot of folks have died over some pretty crass distinctions.
Karl: The source of this whole universe and beyond is so beyond conception and limited understanding that we can't help but muck up the idea of such a being.
Maybe part of the problem is that the constant projection of an anthropomorphic being as THE source of this whole universe and beyond is what mucks up our chances of understanding.
cintune: What if love, virtue, and all that are simply response biases that have, in reality, upped the odds of survival and the passing on of genetic information to new generations? Is that really so horrible?
I asked that before. Gradations of the range of human behavior has been evidenced in animals - that suggests the survival advantages of social behavior rooted in emotional experience evolved as a natural expression of the size and complexity of mammalian brains. That, as opposed to the rigid, rule-based social structures of insects. Why is the thought of our emotional experience being completely organic so abhorent? I mean, the only reason anyone is having any spiritual experiences is because a bunch of proteins folded appropriately to begin with - something I at least consider a pretty spiritual experience to begin with.
In this lifetime I've been climbing almost 40 years now and still am an idiot.
You've been thinking for longer than that, but from your posts here you project having living absolutely figured out.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 02:56pm PT
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OK
I go to the dictionary and see a lot of meanings to "spiritual" involving religion. One does not however.
Spiritual - of or relating to supernatural beings or phenomena
I don't think Karl is talking about anything supernatural. I also get the feeling he is not speaking in a religious context.
Isn't this discussion being hampered by the use of an inapplicable word?????
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 02:57pm PT
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One God who can appear and display unlimited forms.
The different forms are attributed to the different activities, just like a climber dresses one way and then becomes a stock broker and dresses in a suit, (crude example).
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2009 - 03:19pm PT
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What does one say to the deeply devout and orthodox who vehemently believe the other gods are false gods and not simply different visions of their god? Wouldn't a god attempt to referee all this religious debate given how many people are regularly slaughtered over just who god is and what he said?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 15, 2009 - 03:54pm PT
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"I go to the dictionary and see a lot of meanings to "spiritual" involving religion. One does not however.
Spiritual - of or relating to supernatural beings or phenomena
I don't think Karl is talking about anything supernatural. I also get the feeling he is not speaking in a religious context."
What' supernatural? Everything that exists, including God is natural.
I AM talking about a Spiritual nature that science doesn't yet acknowledge and whose laws are not yet commonly known to science.
If that's supernatural, yup.
Just because our spirit nature is within us, doesn't mean it's not connected with great power.
While answering HealyJ, I noted that the idea of "God" isn't required but it would be remiss for me not to not that prayer can be powerful, or at least setting an intention to know and discover followed by an openness to listen to life
Peace
karl
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 04:23pm PT
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healyje -- "Wouldn't a god attempt to referee all this religious debate given how many people are regularly slaughtered over just who god is and what he said?"
You guys are slaughtering each other over money, resources and anything else to do with "I, me, mine" right now.
You're stuck and rotting in a religion rut, that has nothing to do with true spiritual consciousness.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2009 - 04:23pm PT
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[Sorry, 'TinySalami' was my one-post avatar for Ana's thread.]
You're stuck in a religion rut, that has nothing to do with true spiritual consciousness.
Karl: I AM talking about a Spiritual nature that science doesn't yet acknowledge and whose laws are not yet commonly known to science.
Main Entry: law - pronunciation: \ˈlȯ\
(1) : a binding custom or practice of a community : a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority (2) : the whole body of such customs, practices, or rules
How would one percieve, deduce, or infer 'laws' for a 'spiritual nature', 'spiritual consciousness', or 'transcendent reality' if no one can agree on the nature of the 'spiritual nature', consciousness, or other reality? How would such 'laws' be conferred such that any two persons would agree on them?
I find it interesting that science speculates on other realities (universes, dimensions, quantum states, dark matter, etc), yet never simply states they exist and demands everyone to accept that as fact..
And Werner, I could be stuck in that rut because billions on this planet claim [their] religion is THE way of spiritual consciousness. How can you discount their view as wrong or insufficient?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2009 - 04:35pm PT
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I don't know, at the moment I would consider string and multiverse theories to be both "alternate" and "transcendent" realities - semantics I suppose.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 04:37pm PT
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healyje -- "How can you discount their view as wrong or insufficient?"
You have a lot to learn.
The first step is who you really are. You think you are the body.
Instead you're like the kid in kindergarten who's heard some say some words "quantum physics" and haven't even learned abc or basic arithmetic and wants to jump straight to quantum physics.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 04:42pm PT
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Yep .....
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 15, 2009 - 05:00pm PT
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Jstan wrote: "the bed rock of christianity would be concern for others
and not the focussing of one's attention solely upon what makes the believer feel good.
If the present organized religions operated to produce this way of looking at life, I would have no criticism to offer on anyone's "beliefs." "
The bed rock of Christianity IS to be concern for others. This is one way you can know (if you have wandered into a church) if what is being taught is Biblically based. I am not sure what you mean by "what makes the believer feel good"; it has not been my experience in church that the teaching is intended to make us feel good; rather it is intended to make us uncomfortable with our own complacency. Jesus taught that the road is difficult. If any preacher is saying otherwise, that it is about "feeling good", then I would suggest that they are not teaching from the Word. This is why discernment is needed, and why we ARE required by the Bible to think for ourselves.
False doctrine in the Christian church has been around a long, long time. My home church pastor encourages us to "Be Bereans," a reference to the Christians in Berea, who, the Bible said, Tested the words of those preaching to see if they were true. The test is the Bible. Even a rudimentary knowledge of the Bible should be enough for most people to chuck those "wealth and prosperity" dudes out on their butts!
If you want to know the essence of Christianity, not man-made doctrine, just read the Bible. It is really that simple. With enough Biblical knowledge you will be able to spot false teachers a mile away. And maybe it will clear up some of the confusion that people here have as to what Christianity really is. GO BACK TO THE SOURCE. Read the gospels. Ruminate on the words of Jesus. I would say to avoid organized religion. The Gospel is not intended to make Christians feel superior. If anything, it is intended to cause us great humility and gratitude.
I do agree with McArthur that satan has infiltrated the organized church. As for people being "raised" in a certain atmosphere, that may have been somewhat true years ago, but the world has shrunk so much that I don't think that applies anymore. A number of us here were not raised as Christians but became so later on. Some of us belonged to other religions. Muslims are converting to Christianity in record numbers, even when to do so is a death sentence in many countries; why would that be?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2009 - 05:24pm PT
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Haven't heard from Gobee, but Bronwyn, do you also agree your god is no different than Vishnu, Ra, and Allah?
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MH2
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 05:24pm PT
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A better question seems to be -
What do those experiences have in common?
Thank you, Warbler.
Yes, why do some other people who meditate not experience the same thing that Karl does? If there is something universal inside us, why doesn't it manifest itself better? Even when you calm your brain and let the mental noise quiet down?
It seems that different people experiencing different things is more likely because of different biology. Biology of the subtle sort mentioned by Francis Bacon(?).
Jan,
I think I've learned more from people who are supposedly mentally deficient than from your average Joe. At the other extreme, people who are way smart also sometimes seem to be in touch with a different world. I don't know why, although biology would the likely culprit. If people with no other contact with each other described the same weird experiences, it might be necessary to look further.
And that leads into the question,
Why didn't Christianity or Buddhism or any other religion arise independently in different parts of the world?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2009 - 05:30pm PT
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Jan, sounds like you're subscribing to the 'Starship Troopers' school of military intelligence.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 05:32pm PT
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From the Bhāgavatam we understand that Lord Buddha is the incarnation of Krsna who appeared when materialism was rampant and materialists were using the pretext of the authority of the Vedas.
Although there are certain restrictive rules and regulations regarding animal sacrifice for particular purposes in the Vedas, people of demonic tendency still took to animal sacrifice without reference to the Vedic principles.
Lord Buddha appeared to stop this nonsense and to establish the Vedic principles of nonviolence. Therefore each and every avatāra, or incarnation of the Lord, has a particular mission, and they are all described in the revealed scriptures.
No one should be accepted as an avatāra unless he is referred to by scriptures.
It is not a fact that the Lord appears only on Indian soil. He can advent Himself anywhere and everywhere, and whenever He desires to appear.
In each and every incarnation, He speaks as much about religion as can be understood by the particular people under their particular circumstances.
But the mission is the same-to lead people to God consciousness and obedience to the principles of religion. Sometimes He descends personally, and sometimes He sends His bona fide representative in the form of His son, or servant, or Himself in some disguised form.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2009 - 06:07pm PT
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No one should be accepted as an avatāra unless he is referred to by scriptures...
So 'scriptures', the written word of men, is still the root authority.
...But the mission is the same-to lead people to God consciousness and obedience to the principles of religion.
And is it about consciousness or religion? Because despite the avatars, and from this thread alone, we can state that humans very much disagree on what the 'principles of religion' are.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 06:15pm PT
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We humans are stupid, what do we really know ....
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jstan
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 06:23pm PT
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Base:
Great news on your mom.
"As for bad attaching itself to good, this is the good old non sequitur:"
Healthy Forests
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 15, 2009 - 07:26pm PT
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Healyje, to answer your question, after my agnostic days were over, I DID worhip another god other than the God of the Bible. And I can say that the God of the Bible is NOT the same as Vishnu, Allah, etc.
If someone has been raised in another religion and has never heard of Jesus, then Jesus at the time of their death only holds them accountable for what they DID know. (If they were faithful to their native faith, that is the standard to which they are held.) We are ALL held accountable for what we know. But ultimately, Jesus IS the LORD of all. That has been my experience, coming from the "other side."
"Religion" is the construct of man. "Faith" is from the Lord. And "belief" does not have to preceed faith. Trip mentioned this also, and I know people whose first prayer was,"God, I don't even know if You even exist. I may be talking to the air. But if You are real, I ask to receive Jesus into my heart." And, basically, God took care of the rest.
Following a bunch of religious rules is not really part of the picture. The Apostles didn't follow any religious "rules" and I daresay they did just fine.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 15, 2009 - 07:38pm PT
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"Members of the earth's earliest known civilization, the Sumerians, looked on in shock and confusion some 6,000 years ago as God, the Lord Almighty, created Heaven and Earth...."
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/sumerians_look_on_in_confusion_as
"I do not understand," reads an ancient line of pictographs depicting the sun, the moon, water, and a Sumerian who appears to be scratching his head. "A booming voice is saying, 'Let there be light,' but there is already light. It is saying, 'Let the earth bring forth grass,' but I am already standing on grass."
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Dec 15, 2009 - 07:44pm PT
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Werner wrote:
"You have a lot to learn.
The first step is who you really are. You think you are the body."
What does the body have to say about this?
"Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers." Jesse "The Body" Ventura
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 15, 2009 - 07:54pm PT
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Once again, you are confusing organized religion with genuine faith.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2009 - 08:00pm PT
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We humans are stupid, what do we really know...
That's not the point Werner - the point is the notion of relative supremacy and who dictates it. Throughout history there have been countless millions of people just as sure and educated and experienced as you who completely disagree with your notions of what is superior. Sounds like Bronwyn (and probably Goobee) rejects your belief all gods are avatars of one god - who is right?
Look, all humans are capable of belief - the issue is what to do when there is a delta between verifiable, shared, perceptual experience and personal belief. Scientologists are absolute in the authority of their scriptures, as were the Egyptians and Mayans. People believe in the Tooth Fairy, others in ghosts? What makes any belief or scripture more authoritative or supreme relative to all the others?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2009 - 08:16pm PT
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And we call these people that believe in such things.... atheists.
So the catholics are atheists? The paranormal pastor and any number of christians and folks who study the bible sure appear to disagree with you.
What makes your beliefs and interpretations superior to theirs? How should it be decided whose beliefs and faith is the 'genuine' one when two or more people disagree? How to judge between Werner and Bronwyn, or between those christians who believe in the trinity and those who don't?
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 15, 2009 - 08:28pm PT
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Base, I wanted to add my gratitude that your mom is improving. My family and I know others here on ST have been praying for the both of you.
Your views on compassion, social justice and love are right on; those are the heart of Christianity as preached by Jesus. In loving others and helping the homeless you are living the Gospel, even if you say you don't really get it. I think you do.
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 15, 2009 - 08:37pm PT
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Warbler, at the risk of repeating myself, don't assume that all Christians voted for Bush!!! He was NEVER my president! As for whether or not he is actually a Christian, that is between him and God.
I heard this info about Muslims converting from several sources, so I would need to go back and look those up to properly cite them. I have also spoken personally to several people who have recently lived in predominantly Muslim countries who have witnessed this first hand. There was a conference about a year ago in SoCal where several formerly Muslim gentleman spoke, and they also confirmed that this is happening, although the Muslim countries don't want this info to become common knowledge.
But I'll see if I can find the other citations for you. May not get to it tonight, though.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 15, 2009 - 09:38pm PT
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Yes, why do some other people who meditate not experience the same thing that Karl does? If there is something universal inside us, why doesn't it manifest itself better? Even when you calm your brain and let the mental noise quiet down?
Actually there are great commonalities in people's meditative experiences. There are also differences based on "where you're at" and "what you have within you."
When you calm your mind, stuff you have repressed and denied start rising to the surface to be resolved. If you were hurt and abused, you might have to face that stuff.
We have different preferences and predilections. Everybody has a different dance with life.
God relates to us where we're at and leaves us alone if we choose. (except that God is never truly gone) If your baby kid is having a fit and yells "Ra Ra Ra" or "Bobo Bobo Bobo" You still come and help him if you know he intends you. After all, Jesus never used the word "God" even once
peace
Karl
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 15, 2009 - 09:50pm PT
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Yes, And we call these people that believe in such things.... atheists.
Skip, I didn't realize until this moment that your name is really a recommendation as to what to do with your comments.
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 15, 2009 - 09:53pm PT
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I have no interest in taking down the majority elected government, especially since I am part of the majority who voted for it.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2009 - 10:10pm PT
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I'm pretty amazed the inherent problems which arise from competing claims of supremacy and authority are basically ignored by the religious and spiritually inclined. On one hand it comes across as hubris and righteous conceit and on the other as a delusional denial of the obvious.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 10:13pm PT
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Karl -- "After all, Jesus never used the word "God" even once"
Yes, Father, because Jesus was son who dovetailed his whole being, all his actions and consciousness to his father.
Thus they became one but simultaneous different. The supreme father maintains his original identity (individuality) along with Jesus maintaining his identity (individuality).
Just like two snowflakes both are snow but each flake is different.
It's a beautiful thing, instead they waste all their time arguing about nothing.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2009 - 10:33pm PT
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...instead they waste all their time arguing about nothing...
More like waste all their time dying about nothing. It may be 'nothing' to you, comfortable in the authority of your absolutes. But it speaks volumes about the problems other's face trying to define or validate relative [spiritual] supremacy. You can simply say c'est la vie, it's up to the individual and god, but competing authority on spiritual boundaries is also is a root cause of war.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 15, 2009 - 11:15pm PT
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BASE!
Just read about your Mom's improvement, and I am realy thankful for that. I hope she continues to improve. You are blessed to have each other. It has been a good day! Thanks for sharing the good news!
Sincerely, Trip~
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 16, 2009 - 12:59am PT
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healyje- "but competing authority on spiritual boundaries is also is a root cause for war."
What about the metaphysically grounded Darwinism, shaping social Darwinism/sterilization, and its effect on shaping the Nazi movement in Germany. How about Richard Weikarts book "From Darwin to Hitler" which shows that Nazism was inspired by two main currents, social Darwinism on the one side and Nietzsche and atheism on the other. The result being evolutionary ethics, eugenics and racism in Germany. The combination of the will to power and the survival of the fittest were recruiting slogans for the Nazis.
How about Mao Se Tung in China? And Stalin in Russia? Millions upon millions of deaths. And what about Pol Pot in Cambodia? Over two Million tortured and slaughtered within a three year period! How about Cho Hesque(sp), Kim Jung Il, Fidel Castro etc, etc.
Your comprehension of history seems to be over-looking the crimes of the last century in the name of atheism!! Take a look at the "Communist Manifesto" and look at these communist regime's. They say explicitly that they want to create a new man and a new utopia, free from the shackles of traditional religion and traditional morality.
Their body count is in the tens of millions. An ocean of blood and a mountain of bodies produced in the name of atheism all in recent history.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 16, 2009 - 01:03am PT
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What makes any belief or scripture more authoritative or supreme relative to all the others?
I would say (I know others may disagree) that the scripture that is more authoritative is the one that speaks to you individually. That's why there are different scriptures and interpretations of God anyway - because not all humans think alike.
Granted, most people go along with the majority in their culture; that's why we have a geographic distribution of religions. However, in our new globalized culture, there is no reason for a modern educated person to be so limited, should they choose to follow a particular tradition or belief system.
Increasingly however, modern people are choosing from multiple traditions and there are whole religions based on combining several - Unitarian-Universalists, Vedanta, Bahai - to name a few. In these churches, they read from the scriptures of at least 6 or 7 religious traditions, sing hymns from 6 or 7, and use prayers from all of them on alternate worship days.
Of course you can do the same at home - or not - as you choose.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 16, 2009 - 01:12am PT
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jstan-
My comment was definitely not directed at you.
What I really appreciate about your comments and Ed's is that they represent a different way of thinking than I have been exposed to for a long time and as such are always thought provoking.
If one only hears opinions the same as one's own (a particular danger if a person is a teacher with diligent students), then it's easy to make unwarranted assumptions and not progress any further, especially in an isolated environment like Okinawa.
It's good to have one's world view challenged from time to time.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 16, 2009 - 01:23am PT
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healeyje-
I'm not familiar with the term 'Starship Troopers'?
I've been outside the U.S. for 30 years and I don't watch much television?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 16, 2009 - 01:26am PT
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I don't know of any other God but the God of the Bible, the Alpha and Omega the Great I Am, And His Son Jesus through whom all things were made. Who is Holy and Righteous and above all things, who is Love, and who loved us so much that to bridge the separations that sin caused sent His only Son to the cross that we could be redeemed and forgiven. We are all Gods creation and equally His children through Jesus. God told us His plan from the beginning to the end in the Bible. When we see His heavens and earth, who are we? Our Lord God is mighty and wonderful from everlasting to everlasting, worthy to be worshiped and praised with thanksgiving in our hearts! And that doesn't come close!
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.1) By John MacArthur
http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 16, 2009 - 01:27am PT
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I would say (I know others may disagree) that the scripture that is more authoritative is the one that speaks to you individually.
That's all very pastoral, but that idea that scripture and belief are merely subjective is vehemently rejected by millions, including people in this thread as Gobee just testified above. They are not in any way open to the suggestion or idea of other gods or scriptures, and we won't even go into highly spiritual cultures with no written scripture.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 16, 2009 - 01:27am PT
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You can make "world view" sound quite hoity-toity if you say "weltanschauung" instead. Those Germans do love their compound nouns.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 16, 2009 - 01:31am PT
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base 104-
I am so glad to hear about your mother!
As I noted before, leukemia is a really debilitating disease for the sick person and all who know them. One thing I learned from my friend's ordeal with the disease was to never ever give up. Except for the head oncologist, everyone in the Japanese hospital where he was, said no one could survive with total liver and kidney failure but he did and has been in remission for 8 years.
If your mother has the will to live, there's always hope.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 16, 2009 - 01:46am PT
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Ed-
Thanks!
healyje-
I still don't get it???
My students work in ultra air conditioned rooms or on special planes, with headsets on and computers in front of them far from the front lines, thank to our excellent satellites.
And the worst that ever happened to their group (not any of my students as it turned out) was when one of their planes was forced down in Hainan a few years ago and they had to destroy their own equipment as fast as they could. After that they stayed in a resort for a while and ate a lot of good Chinese food until they were flown home.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 16, 2009 - 01:54am PT
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Rent the movie, to be recruited into military intelligence you have to display psychic 'apttitude'.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 16, 2009 - 03:50am PT
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Base!
If I could go back to, say, Jr. Hi. I think I would major in astrophysics or astronomy. I have always been amazed at the stars, the galaxy's, Milky Way and such things as the speed of light. I have always loved science and microscopes/biology etc. Including neuroscience, and the study of the human anatomy. We had cadavers in 3-4 of my classes (college) and in several post-grad courses I have taken. Just fascinating. Life!
I realy don't fully understand the hoopla, or conflict, or threat that someone like 'roadman' seems to loath. But then I don't have any agenda as far as trying to turn the current situation of science in the classroom around and teach it from a "creationist" viewpoint.
I am not 'compromising' my beliefs, I just feel that it is a matter of faith and something that should be taught in the home and at church. I look at it as a matter of a marvel of a Grand Designer. He will explain the particulars, such as is if wheather the speed of light is a constant outside of our galaxy?
And what period of time, or how did time translate from His day, such as "A day is like a thousand years..." etc. I have no doubt He created it. Maybe He created it with age. Convincing others this, is not my focus! The reason He came here is my focus. It was not for me to become wealthy. This is a temporal place. He was concerned about our eternal existence.
I believe some day I will be able to explore those galaxies...maybe! Not sure, it doesn't say so in the Bible. But it is fun to think about.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 16, 2009 - 05:11am PT
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The tooth fairy and ghosts comment was in no way an insult - it may strike a nerve - but tooth fairies and ghosts are way on the conservative side of what some people ardently believe. And that simply gets back to the problem, does the mere holding of a belief make it a 'reality'. Do you accept tooth fairies, ghosts, and UFOs, Yeti, Aliens, and all of history's gods with the same veracity? Where is that line? Who defines it?
Again, does simply believing something make it real? If not, at what point upon the the continuum of belief does something become real? Skipt dismisses ghosts, others do not. UFOs have a devout following, others do not belive. A 5 year old might believe in the tooth fairy, adults typically do not. A 6,000 year old Earth; many believe it literally, they do not equivocate, others do. But as a geologist, which is more believable - tooth fairies or a 6,000 year old Earth? Is a hindu belief more credible, valid, or believable than a scientology belief?
At what point do beliefs become believable or unbelievable? Where does authority or supremacy of belief or interpretation appear on that continuum?
I have no problem exiting the conversation given it seems almost entirely immune to common sense and is clearly afraid of the most basic boundaries of logic and believability. It's as if one man's 5.5 is another man's 5.11 with no possible or plausible intrusion of objective measure of any kind - it's all good and valid - you just have to believe.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 16, 2009 - 06:02am PT
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First, sorry your Mother, you, and your family are going through hard times. I've spent time visiting in an ICU and attending to two family funerals in the past month so you definitely have my sympathy.
In the end I don't try to compete with great philosophers, but do align myself closely with Russell:
As a philosopher, if I were speaking to a purely philosophic audience I should say that I ought to describe myself as an Agnostic, because I do not think that there is a conclusive argument by which one can prove that there is not a God.
On the other hand, if I am to convey the right impression to the ordinary man in the street I think I ought to say that I am an Atheist, because when I say that I cannot prove that there is not a God, I ought to add equally that I cannot prove that there are not the Homeric gods.
--Bertrand Russell / 1947 pamphlet / Am I An Atheist Or An Agnostic?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 16, 2009 - 06:15am PT
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That ball of wax is where I and philosophy part company - pure belief and pure logic - neither really blows my skirt up. I suspect most of the folks who love that end of the philosophy pool and don't end up mathematicians end up lawyers or politicians, or both.
Also, I've also worked in crisis intervention and interacted with a lot of schizophrenics and depressives in whom the notions and boundaries of belief and reality exhibit whole new dimensions of expression.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 16, 2009 - 07:00am PT
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Forty one dollars.
Knowledge of god like this would be cheap at any price
From MacArthur’s shop
----
God, Satan, and Angels
Code: 185
Scripture: Selected Scriptures
Price: 41.00
Someone has said that the most important thing about you is what comes to your mind when you think about God.
It’s true. What you believe about God has serious, long-term impact on how you live. Every thought, word, action, and attitude is ultimately a reflection of your beliefs—right or wrong—about God and His character.
With so much at stake, there’s really no more important pursuit than sorting out reality from myth and knowing God for who He really is. John MacArthur takes you to the Bible for an accurate, in-depth portrait of God Himself, as well as the other powerful inhabitants of the supernatural realm—Satan, demons, and God’s invisible army of holy angels.
---------
http://www.gty.org/Shop/Audio+Series/185
Edit:
Not to worry Jan. The thought that my main difficulty might be misinterpreted forced me to write it down a little more directly.
In a society people have a responsibility to each other. That responsibility can't be shucked off.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 16, 2009 - 07:15am PT
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John MacArthur takes you to the Bible for an accurate, in-depth portrait of ... other powerful inhabitants of the supernatural realm —Satan, demons, and God’s invisible army of holy angels.
I'm sorry, but this is where tooth fairies come back into play. Tooth fairies are out - a total insult - but angels, demons, and invisible armies are somehow pedestrian and o.k.? How about Scientology's Thetans? Insult or o.k.?
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 16, 2009 - 09:08am PT
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healy, the Russell quote reminds me of something Dawkins said,
We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further
I'm sure you've read about Russell's celestial teapot analogy - http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Russell%27s_Teapot
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Norton
Social climber
the Middle Class
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 16, 2009 - 10:56am PT
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jstan
climber
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Dec 16, 2009 - 01:42pm PT
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I have not done a statistical analysis but the great majority of comments on this thread in favor
of a god prominently featured how that belief has helped the believer.
I opined above that I thought what christ was talking about had to do with how we treated each
other. That hypothesis even received some agreement.
Now during christ's time, just as during our own time, the thing that most cries out for
improvement is the treatment we give each other. I have to ask………..
If christ showed up tomorrow and continued to teach what he taught before, why are we to
believe he would receive better treatment this time?
It is not clear that we listened then and it does not seem we know any better now.
For 41 drachmas I am sure mellifluous words could have been purchased in the time of Herod
the Great.
And there were bitter arguments as to which of us were true believers.
We have come a long way, have we not?
Though we have since set foot on the moon, the rest is all entirely unchanged.
Believers must learn to question.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 16, 2009 - 01:47pm PT
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Knock. Knock.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 16, 2009 - 01:58pm PT
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Did I say "Jesus"
See it's really all in YOUR mind Dr F.
You really don't have any clue what you're talking about period.
You're just some ranter spewing into the void .....
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jstan
climber
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Dec 16, 2009 - 02:06pm PT
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The thing that really comes through is that 2000 years ago people were fighting bitterly over who
was the true believer.
John MacArthur continues the self same dialog above.
With Gobee providing us the lyrics.
No change.
After 2000 years?
So it comes down to this. Believers like everything just the way it is.
Perhaps that is what all of this is about.
Really seems to be.
Even after we have tunnelled through into parallel universes and have shown Einstein missed
something, when we get back home people will still be claiming to be the only true believers
and Gobee will be providing the lyrics.
Now mind you all of this is hypothesis. But think back to my statement "evil attaches itself to good."
Christ tried to teach us something new.
His "believers" seem determined to maintain the staus quo at any cost and have successfully done so for 2000 years.
If that ain't attachment, I don't know what is.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 16, 2009 - 02:11pm PT
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jstan- "41 dollars".
jstan- "41 drachmas".
John, what is your point about the 41 whatever?
That is merely one option!!
You can listen to the sermon for free!
Click on "Listen"!
Or you can read the sermon/lecture for free!
Just click on "Read"!
That is what I did this morning when you first posted the John MacArthur thread.
Or, if you are so inclined you can evidently by all nine CD package for forty one dollars! I never have! I usually read it or listen to it for FREE!!!
Most people do. So what is the issue??
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 16, 2009 - 02:15pm PT
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MacArthur has stated that the "theology of Islam is false," and that Allah is the "wrong god.
He's definitely a very confused man ......
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jstan
climber
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Dec 16, 2009 - 02:22pm PT
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Indeed.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 16, 2009 - 02:33pm PT
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He's definitely a very confused man ......
MacArthur is confused, but you are knott? Therein lies the dilemma of authority.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 16, 2009 - 02:40pm PT
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Healyje
You're a very confused man too ...........
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 16, 2009 - 02:40pm PT
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Even the Jewish people don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah, same God, but not the way God say's to believe! I know that they will believe in Him one day and they will be the best Christians because they are the natural branches, same with the Muslims.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 16, 2009 - 02:42pm PT
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Dilemma: a choice or situation involving choice between equally unsatisfactory alternatives
Hypothesis:
Humans or a subset of humans are unable to handle dilemma.
So a better alternative
is invented.
Edit:
Take Jeff, for example. (Please!)
Taking a deadly serious thread
and trying to have fun with it.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 16, 2009 - 02:51pm PT
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Actually Jeff's post is not really a joke although he would like it to be seen in that light.
His statement is the religion of gross materialism.
Sectarianism as religion is what causes the problems.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 16, 2009 - 02:55pm PT
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You're a very confused man too ........
How do you know you aren't the confused one? I'm more inclined to think the more absolute you're beliefs are in this realm, the more confused you are.
Oh, and was that a hell yes vote for angels, demons, and invisible armies?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 16, 2009 - 03:01pm PT
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As one approaches the intersection, ....
Speeding down the road the light turns red
Question all authority, I do not believe this red light means stop today for its my holiday .....
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jstan
climber
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Dec 16, 2009 - 03:04pm PT
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When you hear someone claim another is a false prophet you are hearing someone who is counting on there being no proof either way.
Assertions are easy.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 16, 2009 - 03:09pm PT
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Follow the disciplic succession on anything to the root to get your real answers ...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 16, 2009 - 03:14pm PT
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For claiming the answers and knowing tha absolute, supreme relative, I still can't help but think many of your posts would make good fortune cookies.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 16, 2009 - 03:19pm PT
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Yes whatever you say Supreme master healyje ......
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 16, 2009 - 03:32pm PT
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What I say is I prefer my confusion to yours, given all confusion, like belief, appears to be equal. But, I would have thought with such certain authority came clear, simple answers. That's obviously not the case - must be one of those grasshopper deals.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 16, 2009 - 03:34pm PT
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Your conclusion
Question all authority, I do not believe this red light means stop today for its my holiday .....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 16, 2009 - 03:40pm PT
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Question all authority, unless it's your chosen scripture, then I suppose it's all just a matter of what color the light is and how many drinks you've had as the other drivers see whatever color light their scripture dictates.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 16, 2009 - 03:44pm PT
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This is an excellent example of a situation where we need just a little help from god.
And.......
And........
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 16, 2009 - 03:47pm PT
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healyje -- "then I suppose"
You're whole arguments are strictly based on pure guessing and speculations compounded by your veiled biases, as you really have no actual knowledge pertaining to this.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 16, 2009 - 03:48pm PT
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How would you know?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 16, 2009 - 03:59pm PT
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In America there is the Supreme court. Although it is ultimately not perfect we must still submit to it's authority whether we agree to the law it handed down or not.
If we reject that law and rebel against it then we are subjected to restraint in some form or other.
Thus authority even on the material level is there.
This material creation is an imperfect reflection of the real although temporary it is not false.
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MH2
climber
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Dec 16, 2009 - 04:09pm PT
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We have different preferences and predilections. Everybody has a different dance with life. Karl
Sure, and after all, that is the interesting part. Anything universal can take care of itself. And how could something universal explain those different preferences, predilections, dances?
It occurs that Karl and I both respond to the appeal of parsimony. He feels that science is unnecessary to such aspects of human experience as love and compassion. I would agree although science goes places you don't expect it to. For my part I feel that hidden or submerged mysteries and spiritual forces are unnecessary to explain the richness of human experience.
We have come a long way, have we not? jstan
Haha. Yes, we have come a long way. DOWNhill. Fortunately there are better examples of recent human accomplishment than we have mustered on this thread. But we haven't come anywhere near Euclid, or Plato, or Thomas Acquinas, for that matter.
Maybe a minority view, but I see evolution as on a downhill course, too, ever since the outstanding achievement of chlorophyll. Hemoglobin is a pale impostor in comparison. The Animalia are poor candidates for enlightenment compared to the plants. Take water, sunlight, and CO2, plus assorted other elements, and make a beautiful relatively peaceful organic structure. We should allow a few bees and other insects in our Garden of Eden, too.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 16, 2009 - 04:11pm PT
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Citizens in the United States agree SCOTUS is authoritative and there is only one SCOTUS in the phone book. A quick glance in that phonebook will also show U.S. citizens do not, in any way, agree on which god or interpretation of 'god' is similarly authoritative.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 16, 2009 - 04:16pm PT
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Then you must make full understanding of what "God" really is before you speak.
It may take you many many lifetimes, although you reject that also.
Until then you are a mental speculator with no real knowledge on that subject matter.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 16, 2009 - 04:18pm PT
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He feels that science is unnecessary to such aspects of human experience as love and compassion.
I would suggest god, religion, and science are completely unnecessary and irrelevant to love and compassion beyond after-the-fact supposition.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Dec 16, 2009 - 04:20pm PT
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You're whole arguments are strictly based on pure guessing and speculations compounded by your veiled biases, as you really have no actual knowledge pertaining to this.
And yours is different how?
edit: oh... wait... your bias isn't veiled.... my bad. Carry on....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 16, 2009 - 04:26pm PT
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Then you must make full understanding of what "God" really is before you speak.
Will the circle, be unbroken? By and by lord, by and by...
That olde circular logic: Who's god, who's scripture, who's discipline? The Vedas, the Bible, Summerian tablets, Dianetics? That's right, it's all in the perspective of your belief! Perfect.
Will the circle, be unbroken? By and by lord, by and by...
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 16, 2009 - 04:37pm PT
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But you do nothing.
You only rant .....
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 16, 2009 - 04:49pm PT
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Another stupid projectionist rant with no substance.
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Norton
Social climber
the Middle Class
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 16, 2009 - 05:19pm PT
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And that ONE man is:
THE man, Charles Darwin
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 16, 2009 - 07:26pm PT
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"God" is an English word, Jesus is a Greek work. The Apostles and their Master didn't use either word.
"Allah" means "God" in Arabic. I'd be surprised if Arabic speaking Christians didn't use that word for God when they pray.
In India, the Christians call Jesus "Isa" (means Lord)
There is no doubt the Christian God and Jewish God are one because, after all, Jesus was a Jew.
Jesus is also the #2 prophet in Islam so Islam firmly believes they are praying to the same God as Christians are.
You can say any religion that believes there is only one ultimate God (and much of even Hinduism would accept this) then we're all praying to the same God, the only question is who is most and least misguided about it. Folks can argue about how far off the mark you can be without being ignored by God.
Personally, I think even unbelievers are partaking in God and their own Spirit every day all the time without being intellectually aware of it. The Spirit lights up our awareness.
Folks who fight saying only their sect of their religion is recognized by God, are saying more about themselves than about God. If such were true, one sect of one religion would be obviously and manifestly more blessed than the others and their followers would be obviously much more full of Love and Charity than others.
Obviously, that ain't happening
Peace
karl
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 16, 2009 - 08:26pm PT
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First everything that is was made by God! Man used those things to make man made things.
However the crux is how to approach God? Well for me the Bible answers that completely, through Jesus!
If I were God I would do it differently, but good thing I'm not!
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jstan
climber
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Dec 16, 2009 - 08:52pm PT
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The really amazing thing is that an argument between two groups, each claiming to be the only true shamans in a situation where no data is ever brought into play
can go on for thousands of years.
Just the fact there has been no improvement in 2000 years tells a discerning person nothing of substance is at issue.
Literally incredible.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Dec 16, 2009 - 09:04pm PT
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Haven't looked at the thread in a day or so, and I have to admit when I read the Religions of the World sign posted by Norton, it completely caught me off guard and I laughed hysterically. Too funny.
Anyway, I'm glad we can all talk about really deep issues and ideas. It is a real learning experience. I enjoy it. I've learned some important things, and reading all the scripture posted is like a thunder shower in a thirsty desert.
In the end I believe in Jesus, and I am greatful for his grace. I have real hope for the future.
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Norton
Social climber
the Middle Class
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 16, 2009 - 09:10pm PT
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Back by popular demand!!!
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jstan
climber
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Dec 16, 2009 - 09:32pm PT
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The only question I have for Bierstadt is
Where the heck is the green flash?
And, as usual,
Norton has nailed it.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 16, 2009 - 09:55pm PT
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"Slowly inching his segmented exoskeleton across the sea floor, a local marine arthropod, class Trilobita, reported that Earth's natural evolution was 'progressing quite nicely.'"
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/evolution_going_great_reports
"It's a wonderful time to be alive," said the tri-lobed creature, its protruding feelers and antennules twitching spasmodically with anticipation. "To be born during this, the Cambrian Explosion—why, I couldn't imagine a better period, really. It's all happening right now!"
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 16, 2009 - 09:58pm PT
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Karl -- "Personally, I think even unbelievers are partaking in God and their own Spirit every day all the time without being intellectually aware of it."
This is actually a bonafide fact that's completely true ......
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Dec 16, 2009 - 10:11pm PT
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God makes it rain on the just and the unjust. He gives us all what we need whether we acknowledge him or not. He loves us and wishes to have a relationship with us. GOD's love is perfect. If we could all just be like GOD.
BASE104,
I'm happy your mother is feeling better and on the recovery. Prayer always helps. He wants to hear from us. We'll keep praying for a full recovery.
God works in mysterious ways. Sometimes he comes into our lives when we don't expect it and we call out to him in all honesty when we need him the most and we have no where else to turn. It is like a hand from heaven that catches us just the moment we are gonna fall to our spirtual death. GOD is there. We just have to reach out and grab ahold of his hand.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 16, 2009 - 10:41pm PT
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Questioning authority is essential in minimizing the corruption in our thinking.
Scientists are good at, aiming at identifying weak points and pitfalls in their conclusions and data.
It's needed in Religion too because most of them originated so long ago that their expression is tied with culture and language expressions rooted in ancient times, far from the culture and understandings we live in today. Shakespeare is hard enough for us to understand without a guide and he wrote much, much more recently and in English
Then the problem of using mundane analogies for cosmic principles is prone to misinterpretation. It's even seen in the Bible when Jesus and his crew are entering some village and he tells them not to eat the local bread. The guys freak out because of fear of hunger but Jesus says, Chill, I'm speaking about their "spiritual bread."
If Jesus came back today and preached as reformist an agenda as he did 2000 years ago, there's no way the mainstream would accept him. How many tolerate a liberal interpretation of scripture now? (of course, the rules for everything have become slack like the sabbath)
It's easy to fall in line with the common assumptions other people hold in your religion. If you want truth, better go beyond assumptions
peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 17, 2009 - 02:02am PT
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BASE104 -- "There is no authority"
You just made an authority statement .....
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 17, 2009 - 02:16am PT
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Well, I'm sure glad that BASE104's mother seems to be better. Good news! It was worth trawling through everything else.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 17, 2009 - 02:17am PT
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Glad to hear about Mom Base and good to explore dimensions of this life journey with you here on the taco
Peace
Karl
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 17, 2009 - 08:50am PT
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I went to a Christmas party last night, and no wanted to talk of God, Jesus, or anything religious, or any religion.
And we are in the Pope room at Buca Di Beppo where a Pope bust was on the table, and photo's all around the room!
One girl said the Pope didn't believe in the Holocaust? And another said a Pope joke.
And that was it! It makes me sad to see that they can live with no thought of God what so ever!
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 17, 2009 - 11:18am PT
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Base, this news about your Mom just ROCKS!!! So happy to read this. I actually was fighting tears reading it.
A "miracle"? I prefer to think so. And God does work miracles through people and medicine.
Please keep us posted as to her progress. :)
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 17, 2009 - 12:52pm PT
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In the material world the Absolute Authority is one must give up the body at the end of the allotment of breaths, prana.
This is called death.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Dec 17, 2009 - 01:31pm PT
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Gobee, did you try quoting a John MacArthur sermon to them?
That always gets a party kickin!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 17, 2009 - 02:18pm PT
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This is called death.
Agreed. Though I'm always curious why that's not ok. It's already all gravy at this point for me. I have no need of, or interest in, either continuing beyond death or in another go around. What's wrong with simply laying it all down?
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MH2
climber
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Dec 17, 2009 - 04:41pm PT
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I can't believe that I found so much support just talking about religion.
Good choice of words BASE! Especially meaningful given what you've told us about your Mom and your own state of mind. There are shared feelings that people have, and making an effort to share them can be wonderfully helpful.
On religion. There has been pessimism expressed about lack of progress in this arena through written history. And there has been a suggestion that to some Science may become a religion. But surely there has been progress in science?
Someone once tried to make the point that there must be something special and universal about religion because some form of it was found in all societies. My own mother responded to that by saying that in order to make that statement you had to be willing to include patently ridiculous beliefs and practices under the umbrella of religion. The Tooth Fairy will leave money under your pillow for your tooth, for example. In broader terms, what most would call superstition had to be dressed up as religion in order to claim that all peoples in all the jungles and mountains of the world practice something closely related to what Christians do in church on Sundays.
But there is definitely a willingness most people seem to have to believe in something like religion.
One of my own sacred texts contains the following statement. It is italicized in the book, so it's significance cannot be missed:
In this sense there is only one ordered domain whose positive elements are well-ordered, and it is Zed.
"This sense" is; Roughly speaking, isomorphic Rings are the same Ring, but the elements are named differently.
Now, that might be viewed as quasi-religious, and sounds like "there is only one God etc.", but it would be hard to claim that there has been no progress in the past 2000 years.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 17, 2009 - 04:52pm PT
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On the radio today a divorced guy said that he never felt so bad as the day when he saw his son and went to hug him and he pushed him away! I wonder That's how God must feel when we do that?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 17, 2009 - 08:08pm PT
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Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.1) By John MacArthur
I'm to Grace Church tonight for the Christmas concert with full orchestra
and choir! With Bach, Beethoven, and Handel, Cheers!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 18, 2009 - 01:24am PT
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No Bach or Beethoven but a double dose of Handel, and the singing was amazing!
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Dec 18, 2009 - 05:33am PT
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hey there all, say, just stepped in to see how you all are... :)
say--i just made a small song-list to help a gal out this week (for her holiday, as she is far away from home and friends), and there were so many nice little holiday songs from some others gals, too, that know her...
this one caught me eye, 'it came upon the midnight clear'... (that glorious song of odl)...
it seemed like a history trail, come alive of the whole christmas story event--though, many folks DON'T sing them all...
quite a few other gals that shared songs to send this OTHER gal, also liked it---just thought i'd share, as gobe? (think that is how it's spelled, hope i didn't mess up the spelling) had shared some songs, just a minute ago... (say, as an extra note, i loved beethoven's "joy" song quite a lot)... :)
well, as to the "midnight clear" i always like that christmas song---and---when we were little and our mom played the piano and sang the many christmas songs to us... that one also, made the night-even seem so real, to, for me, as a kid... (cold crisp weather, etc, and dark out, and the vast heavens)... and god... :)
*say, i will have to backtrack, and can't do that now, but happy wishes to the one whose mom is well now!! that sounds very wonderul...
well, god bless and good night, all...
this is very busy time now, i am making a project for a gal and it takes a lot of sewing... :)
will come back later and visit... this is very long to catch up on... :O
all for now... :)
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 18, 2009 - 08:46am PT
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Proverbs 18:14, A man's spirit will endure sickness,
but a crushed spirit who can bear?
Matthew 9:12-13, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Dec 18, 2009 - 01:44pm PT
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The problem of someone or anyone mixing science and religion is that the practice of one will always expose problems with the other. They cannot mix. Any scientist that goes to church and then experiments with, and investigates, evolutionary processes is going to have a hard time with things. It is hypocritical to be both a scientist and not an atheist because a true scientist would have absolutely no stake in the outcome of an experiment. So maybe it's fortunate that most scientists are hypocrites or no science would get done if the outcome could contradict the persons belief system. Either that or there are a lot more atheists than thought and a lot of people who won't admit it or acknowledge it.
It works both ways. Any priest, nun, rabbi, pope, etc..., that makes any statement about science or does any science it equally a hypocrite because of their either accepting what contradicts their beliefs or in their bias towards their beliefs.
Wasn't this a science thread to start with and now is just about religion? I recall mention of a missing link in human evolution. After that, there was some talk about Jesus telling some guy how to drive his car, some profound spiritual statements that seem to have come from a Lifetime network B movie, lots of Bible quotes, and this constant discussion that suggests that anyone here can at all understand God.
God does not cry when you push him away. God is all knowing and all seeing and is understanding of you and your problems. After all, God is the cause of all of your problems, having created everything that we are and having created everything around us, including the universe and all of it's potential for science. God created the potential for evil in the hearts of men and created joy and greed equally in us. Don't underestimate God like you do people. God is far more knowing and seeing than the taco can every be.
Or is the taco God?
Dave
P.S. I'm an atheist.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 18, 2009 - 02:10pm PT
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"It is wiser to find out than to suppose" Mark Twain
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 18, 2009 - 02:19pm PT
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The fundamentalists really do pee in the pool of regular, religious churchgoers....
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 18, 2009 - 07:38pm PT
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Oddly enough, it was when I went back to school to get a science degree (first one was a BA) that I started to re-think my agnostic, evolutionary viewpoint.
In studying molecular biology, it just started to occur to me that it was far too intricate and complex to have just evolved after some random "big bang" of energy. None of my professors could explain how the phospholipid bi-layer could have evolved. The more I studied, the less likely it seemed to be that it could have been anything other than intelligent design or intention somewhere along the way. It was still a long, long road to Christ, but I don't feel that I ever gave up my intelligence in exchange for faith. Or that anything required me to.
I love science. I love physics and both "The Tao of Physics" and "The Dancing Wu Li Masters" have been two of my favorite reads.
I know Christians who believe that God sparked the big bang and then nurtured along life on Earth. At the end of the day, I don't know if that aspect is what is truly important. For me, it is more simple: Do I believe that God sent His Son, in the divine person of Jesus, to walk with us and experience humanity before offering Himself up in exchange for my sins and shortcomings? Do I place my trust fully in Him alone? The answer for me, is Yes.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 18, 2009 - 07:53pm PT
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"The fundamentalists really do pee in the pool of regular, religious churchgoers...."
Nice and yellow, lots of vitamins!
God gave us the gift of Jesus; mercy and forgiveness, as with all gifts you have to take them!
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.1) By John MacArthur http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
neebee...
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 18, 2009 - 08:07pm PT
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Locker, you want a stick for that? lol, I might barf...
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 18, 2009 - 09:13pm PT
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This is cool! We have a co-worker Migal over seas now!
Deck of Cards
It was quiet that day, the guns and the mortars, and land mines for some reason hadn't been heard.
The young soldier knew it was Sunday, the holiest day of the week.
As he was sitting there, he got out an old deck of cards and laid them out across his bunk.
Just then an army sergeant came in and said, 'Why aren't you with the rest of the platoon?'
The soldier replied, 'I thought I would stay behind and spend some time with the Lord.'
The sergeant said, 'Looks to me like you're going to play cards.'
The soldier said, 'No, sir . You see, since we are not allowed to have Bibles or other spiritual books in this country,
I've decided to talk to the Lord by studying this deck of cards.'
The sergeant asked in disbelief, 'How will you do that?'
'You see the Ace, Sergeant? It reminds me that there is only one God.
The Two represents the two parts of the Bible, Old and New Testaments
The Three represents the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost.
The Four stands for the Four Gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John .
The Five is for the five virgins there were ten but only five of them were glorified.
The Six is for the six days it took God to create the Heavens and Earth.
The Seven is for the day God rested after making His Creation.
The Eight is for the family of Noah and his wife, their three sons and their wives -- the eight people God spared from the flood that destroyed the Earth.
The Nine is for the lepers that Jesus cleansed of leprosy He cleansed ten, but nine never thanked Him.
The Ten represents the Ten Commandments that God handed down to Moses on tablets made of stone.
The Jack is a reminder of Satan, one of God's first angels, but he got kicked out of heaven for his sly and wicked ways and is now the joker of eternal hell.
The Queen stands for the Virgin Mary.
The King stands for Jesus, for he is the King of all kings.
When I count the dots on all the cards, I come up with 365 total, one for every day of the year.
There are a total of 52 cards in a deck; each is a week - 52 weeks in a year.
The four suits represent the four seasons: Spring, Summer, Fall and Winter.
Each suit has thirteen cards -- there are exactly thirteen weeks in a quarter.
So when I want to talk to God and thank Him, I just pull out this old deck of cards and they remind me of all that I have to be thankful for.'
The sergeant just stood there.. After a minute, with tears in his eyes and pain in his heart, he said, 'Soldier, can I borrow that deck of cards?'
Please let this be a reminder and take time to pray for all of our soldiers who are being sent away, putting their lives on the line fighting
Prayer for the Military.
Lord, hold our troops in your loving hands.
Protect them.
Bless them and their families
I ask this in the name of Jesus, our Lord and Savior.
Amen
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 18, 2009 - 09:26pm PT
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"Do I believe that God sent His Son, in the divine person of Jesus, to walk with us and experience humanity before offering Himself up in exchange for my sins and shortcomings? Do I place my trust fully in Him alone? The answer for me, is Yes."
No and No!
do I believe in god?
I've recently been all but convinced that I do.
or at least that what I do believe in, that is admitedly bigger or beyond us, can be called god. gawd!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 18, 2009 - 10:02pm PT
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Since Gobee posted a thread about our service men and women, and Jaybro just noted that one can believe in God without believing in a particular interpretation of Jesus, I would note that not all people who serve in the military are Christian or even religious.In fact, the sensible way the military handles diverse religions would be a good role model for civilians as well.
The largest Marine Corps Chapel here in Okinawa is in fact, the most ecumenical chapel in the U.S. military. In the main chapel building services are held for liberal Jews on Friday nights, Catholics on Saturday evenings, and on Sundays - Catholic, mainstream Protestant, and Black Gospel services. Separate rooms in the chapel complex accommodate, Muslims, Hindus, Orthodox Jews and Orthodox Christians.
The wall behind the movable altar has an alcove which houses the Torah scrolls, which can be covered by a curtain for the Christian services. For those, there is a big wooden cross and a similar size crussifix, Depending on the service, a pulley system is utilized, which pulls the appropriate cross out in front of the curtain which hides the Torah.
All congregations contribute to the flowers and once in a while there are minor problems like the Catholics want to observe Advent with purple altar cloths, and the Protestants want Christmas decorations up from at least Dec. 15. This Sunday, there will be a rather unaesthetic mix of purple cloths with red poinsettas as both groups get there way. Still, rather minor issues, all things considered.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 18, 2009 - 10:27pm PT
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The altar cloth of one aeon is the doormat of the next.
Mark Twain
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Dec 18, 2009 - 10:37pm PT
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Jan - that sounds really beautiful - the red and purple of mutual respect.
Last night - Happy Hanukkah all!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 18, 2009 - 10:47pm PT
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"The altar cloth of one aeon is the doormat of the next."
"You wouldn't know a diamond if you held it in your hand!"
Steely Dan
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 18, 2009 - 10:51pm PT
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In studying molecular biology, it just started to occur to me that it was far too intricate and complex to have just evolved after some random "big bang" of energy. None of my professors could explain how the phospholipid bi-layer could have evolved. The more I studied, the less likely it seemed to be that it could have been anything other than intelligent design or intention somewhere along the way.
So, instead of being the guy to help figure it out, you skipped ahead and got your GDI degree. Lots of people have gone this route. G(od) D(id) I(t).
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 18, 2009 - 11:22pm PT
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Thought this was rather timely and appropriate. From CNN today:
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
Nearly 800 years ago, Francis of Assisi made extraordinary move for peace
Paul Moses says he went unarmed to engage in dialogue with Egypt's sultan in midst of a crusade
Reaching across faiths is an authentic expression of Christian values, author says
Acts of compassion can be best way to "stir hearts and minds," he says
RELATED TOPICS
Religion
Christianity
Islam
War and Conflict
Editor's note: Paul Moses is the author of a new book, "The Saint and the Sultan: The Crusades, Islam and Francis of Assisi's Mission of Peace." (Doubleday, 2009). He is a professor of journalism at Brooklyn College and the CUNY Graduate School of Journalism.
New York (CNN) -- Evangelical Christian leaders such as Pat Robertson have assailed President Obama's effort to engage Iran, and the results so far have not vindicated the president's approach as a diplomatic policy.
But if these leaders' goal is to bring Christian attitudes into the realm of public policy -- which, of course, is what they have called for time and again -- they might just as well be thanking the president for his new strategy. That is what the experience of one of history's greatest Christians, Francis of Assisi, teaches us.
Francis engaged Christendom's enemy, Egypt's Sultan Malik al-Kamil, by approaching him unarmed in the midst of the Fifth Crusade in 1219. The Crusaders had laid siege to Damietta, a city at the mouth of the Nile where 80,000 people were dying of disease and starvation.
The Christian forces were hoping to conquer Egypt, which would not only make it easier to take and hold Jerusalem but would deal a heavy blow against all Islam.
Francis actually believed what Jesus said in the New Testament about loving his enemy and took a much different approach than his fellow Christians.
His goal was to convert Sultan al-Kamil to Christianity through peaceful persuasion. He didn't succeed in that, but, amazingly, the two men found common ground and appear to have genuinely appreciated each other.
The sultan, who no doubt viewed Francis in light of an ancient Muslim tradition of reverence for holy Christian monks, permitted him to stay in his camp for several days, preaching the enemy's faith in the midst of the Crusade.
Francis was so influenced by the unexpectedly tranquil encounter with the sultan that when he returned home, he attempted to revise his order's code of conduct to urge that his friars live peacefully among Muslims and "be subject" to them as a way of giving Christian witness -- a revolutionary approach, considering that the Crusade was still being fought.
Francis' journey to the sultan's camp on the east bank of the Nile should be viewed as a mission of peace, since the sultan's conversion might have led to the end of the Crusade.
Francis, it should be said, was a tireless advocate of peace, a stance that stems from the trauma he suffered as a soldier and prisoner of war when he was a young man who saw his comrades massacred on the battlefield.
Since discussion of war and peace is -- even today -- so tinged with religion, it may as well be based on authentic religion. Francis represents what it means to be an authentic Christian. As Pope Pius XI wrote in 1926 on the 700th anniversary of Francis's death: "There has never been anyone in whom the image of Jesus Christ ... shone forth more lifelike and strikingly than in St. Francis."
I don't mean to liken Obama to Francis; there are few human beings in any era who would benefit from comparison to the saint of Assisi. In any case, their situations are very different. Francis was unarmed and powerless when he approached the sultan; there was no hint of coercion.
Obama, on the other hand, is arguably the most powerful person in the world. He can disarm his rhetoric, but it would not be possible for him to approach an enemy in the same powerless way Francis did.
Still, Francis' example tells those who call themselves Christian that they should refrain from weaponizing their words and should seek peaceful solutions whenever possible.
An organization called Charter for Compassion is taking this approach. Gathering together supporters such as Archbishop Desmond Tutu, the Dalai Lama, singer Paul Simon and Sheikh Ali Gomaa, the grand mufti of Egypt, it has sought to restore compassion as the center for morality and religion. It calls for a "return to the ancient principle that any interpretation of scripture that breeds violence, hatred or disdain is illegitimate."
Obama, too, touched on the role of authentic religion in his Nobel Peace Prize speech on December 10. Citing both the World Trade Center attack and "the cruelties of the Crusades," he said, "Such a warped view of religion is not just incompatible with the concept of peace but the purpose of faith -- for the one rule that lies at the heart of every major religion is that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us."
Nearly 800 years ago, at a time when biblical passages were used to justify the Crusades, Francis of Assisi sought a return to true New Testament values. Whether through his famous love of animals or his stunning visit to the enemy in the midst of war, Francis helps us to remember that startling acts of compassion are sometimes the best way to stir hearts and minds.
For those who want to be guided by what Jesus would do, Francis of Assisi is a good place to start.
EDIT~St. Francis ROCKS!
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Dec 18, 2009 - 11:54pm PT
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hey there jan... say, that is a very sweet and kind thing done (sharing the chapel, etc, by days, or time-sharing), so that everyone can have a say in their time of prayer, since they are so far from home... i never heard of that being done anywhwere, before... thanks for the share...
:)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 19, 2009 - 12:31am PT
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Thanks for the St. Francis story.
I highly recommend the film "Brother Sun, Sister Moon" Music by Donovan and filmed beautifully . The story of St Francis, well done
Peace
Karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 19, 2009 - 01:00am PT
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Bronwyn- "St. Francis ROCKS!"
Awesome post!
St. Francis of Assisi was only 44yrs. old when he died.
My mother named me after him and the Apostle John! Wish I had more in common than their first names(although I do love animals).
St. Francis ROCKS-ON!!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 19, 2009 - 04:17am PT
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neebee-
About the military chapels, I'm not sure it was kindness so much as common sense and a desire to use the taxpayer's dollars wisely. This also goes along with their method of selecting chaplains according to the percentage of people of that faith in the military. Mostly they are mainstream but I met a Christian Science chaplain once.
The leaders of some congregations like Muslim, Hindu, and Buddhist have lay leaders because their training institutions don't meet all the bureaucratic requirements for chaplain accreditation. The Buddhists however are working on that and soon there will be Buddhist chaplains.
As a result, I have been asked, as a teacher of comparative religions, to give talks on Buddhism to the Jewish and Christian chaplains and I've been truely amazed at their ignorance of other religions. One of the more common comments I got was "We didn't know that it was a real religion". When I asked what they thought it was, the most common reply was "some kind of devil worshipping cult". Needless to say, there is a lot of work to be done on interfaith understanding still.
And of course for those people who can't deal with the enforced tolerance and ecumenism on base, there are a whole lot of off base churches operated by missionary groups who still preach exclusivity. Evolution, including the evolution of social and cultural behavior works slowly.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 19, 2009 - 06:25am PT
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Dr. Wernher von Braun, the father of our space program with NASA, wrote the following letter to the California State board of Education on September 14, 1972.
Dear Mr. Grose: In response to your inquiry about my personal views concerning the "Case for DESIGN" as a viable scientific theory or the origin of the universe, life and man, I am pleased to make the following observations.
For me, the idea of a creation is not conceivable without evoking the necessity of design. One cannot be exposed to the law and order of the universe without concluding that there must be design and purpose behind it all. In the world round us, we can behold the obvious manifestations of an ordered, structured plan or design. We can see the will of the species to live and propagate. And we are humbled by the powerful forces at work on a galactic scale, and the purposeful orderliness of nature that endows a tiny and ungainly seed with the ability to develop into a beautiful flower. The better we understand the intricacies of the universe and all harbors, the more reason we have found to marvel at the inherent design upon which it is based.
While the admission of a design for the universe ultimately raises the question of a Designer (a subject outside of science), the scientific method does not allow us to exclude data which lead to the conclusion that the universe, life and man are based on design. To be forced to believe only one conclusion-that everything in the universe happened by chance-would violate the very objectivity of science itself.
Certainly there are those who argue that the universe evolved out of a random process, but what random process could produce the brain of a man or the system or the human eye?
Some people say that science has been unable to prove the existence of a Designer. They admit that many of the miracles in the world around us are hard to understand, and they do not deny that the universe, as modern science sees it, is indeed a far more wondrous thing than the creation medieval man could perceive. But they still maintain that since science has provided us with so many answers the day will soon arrive when we will be able to understand even the creation of the fundamental laws of nature without a Divine intent. They challenge science to prove the existence of God. But must we really light a candle to see the sun?
Many men who are intelligent and of good faith say they cannot visualize a Designer. Well, can a physicist visualize an electron? The electron is materially inconceivable and yet it is so perfectly known through its effects that we use it to illuminate our cities, guide our airlines through the night skies and take the most accurate measurements. What strange rationale makes some physicists accept the inconceivable electrons as real while refusing to accept the reality of a Designer on the ground that they cannot con- ceive Him? I am afraid that, although they really do not understand the electron either, they are ready to accept it because they managed to produce a rather clumsy mechanical model of it borrowed from rather limited experience in other fields, but they would not know how to begin building a model of God.
I have discussed the aspect of a Designer at some length because it might be that the primary resistance to acknowl- edging the "Case for Design" as a viable scientific alternative to the current "Case for Chance" lies in the inconceiv- ability, in some scientists' minds, of a Designer. The inconceivability of some ultimate issue (which will always lie outside scientific resolution) should not be allowed to rule out any theory that explains the interrelationship of observed data and is useful for prediction.
We in NASA were often asked what the real reason was for the amazing string of successes we had with our Apollo flights to the Moon. I think the only honest answer we could give was that we tried to never overlook anything. It is in that same sense of scientific honesty that I endorse the presentation of alternative theories for the origin of the uni- verse, life and man in the science classroom. It would be an error to overlook the possibility that the universe was planned rather than happened by chance.
With kindest regards.
sincerely,
Wernher von Braun
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 19, 2009 - 06:27am PT
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"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1 (KJV)
Now that we know what the definition of faith is, let's propose a question and look at some "evidence" of those "things not seen", at least not by you:
Question: "Why should I believe in Christ’s resurrection?"
Answer: It is a fairly well-established fact that Jesus Christ was publicly executed in Judea in the 1st Century A.D., under Pontius Pilate, by means of crucifixion, at the behest of the Jewish Sanhedrin. The non-Christian historical accounts of Flavius Josephus, Cornelius Tacitus, Lucian of Samosata, Maimonides and even the Jewish Sanhedrin corroborate the early Christian eyewitness accounts of these important historical aspects of the death of Jesus Christ.
As for His resurrection, there are several lines of evidence which make for a compelling case. The late jurisprudential prodigy and international statesman Sir Lionel Luckhoo (of The Guinness Book of World Records fame for his unprecedented 245 consecutive defense murder trial acquittals) epitomized Christian enthusiasm and confidence in the strength of the case for the resurrection when he wrote, “I have spent more than 42 years as a defense trial lawyer appearing in many parts of the world and am still in active practice. I have been fortunate to secure a number of successes in jury trials and I say unequivocally the evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ is so overwhelming that it compels acceptance by proof which leaves absolutely no room for doubt.”
The secular community’s response to the same evidence has been predictably apathetic in accordance with their steadfast commitment to methodological naturalism. For those unfamiliar with the term, methodological naturalism is the human endeavor of explaining everything in terms of natural causes and natural causes only. If an alleged historical event defies natural explanation (e.g., a miraculous resurrection), secular scholars generally treat it with overwhelming skepticism, regardless of the evidence, no matter how favorable and compelling it may be.
In our view, such an unwavering allegiance to natural causes regardless of substantive evidence to the contrary is not conducive to an impartial (and therefore adequate) investigation of the evidence. We agree with Dr. Wernher von Braun and numerous others who still believe that forcing a popular philosophical predisposition upon the evidence hinders objectivity. Or in the words of Dr. von Braun, “To be forced to believe only one conclusion… would violate the very objectivity of science itself.”
Having said that, let us now examine the several lines of evidence which favor of the resurrection.
The First Line of Evidence for Christ's resurrection:
To begin with, we have demonstrably sincere eyewitness testimony. Early Christian apologists cited hundreds of eyewitnesses, some of whom documented their own alleged experiences. Many of these eyewitnesses willfully and resolutely endured prolonged torture and death rather than repudiate their testimony. This fact attests to their sincerity, ruling out deception on their part. According to the historical record (The Book of Acts 4:1-17; Pliny’s Letters to Trajan X, 96, etc) most Christians could end their suffering simply by renouncing the faith. Instead, it seems that most opted to endure the suffering and proclaim Christ’s resurrection unto death.
Granted, while martyrdom is remarkable, it is not necessarily compelling. It does not validate a belief so much as it authenticates a believer (by demonstrating his or her sincerity in a tangible way). What makes the earliest Christian martyrs remarkable is that they knew whether or not what they were professing was true. They either saw Jesus Christ alive-and-well after His death or they did not. This is extraordinary. If it was all just a lie, why would so many perpetuate it given their circumstances? Why would they all knowingly cling to such an unprofitable lie in the face of persecution, imprisonment, torture, and death?
While the September 11, 2001, suicide hijackers undoubtedly believed what they professed (as evidenced by their willingness to die for it), they could not and did not know if it was true. They put their faith in traditions passed down to them over many generations. In contrast, the early Christian martyrs were the first generation. Either they saw what they claimed to see, or they did not.
Among the most illustrious of the professed eyewitnesses were the Apostles. They collectively underwent an undeniable change following the alleged post-resurrection appearances of Christ. Immediately following His crucifixion, they hid in fear for their lives. Following the resurrection they took to the streets, boldly proclaiming the resurrection despite intensifying persecution. What accounts for their sudden and dramatic change? It certainly was not financial gain. The Apostles gave up everything they had to preach the resurrection, including their lives.
The Second Line of Evidence for Christ's resurrection:
A second line of evidence concerns the conversion of certain key skeptics, most notably Paul and James. Paul was of his own admission a violent persecutor of the early Church. After what he described as an encounter with the resurrected Christ, Paul underwent an immediate and drastic change from a vicious persecutor of the Church to one of its most prolific and selfless defenders. Like many early Christians, Paul suffered impoverishment, persecution, beatings, imprisonment, and execution for his steadfast commitment to Christ’s resurrection.
James was skeptical, though not as hostile as Paul. A purported post-resurrection encounter with Christ turned him into an inimitable believer, a leader of the Church in Jerusalem. We still have what scholars generally accept to be one of his letters to the early Church. Like Paul, James willingly suffered and died for his testimony, a fact which attests to the sincerity of his belief (see The Book of Acts and Josephus’ Antiquities of the Jews XX, ix, 1).
The Third and Fourth Lines of Evidence for Christ's resurrection:
A third line and fourth line of evidence concern enemy attestation to the empty tomb and the fact that faith in the resurrection took root in Jerusalem. Jesus was publicly executed and buried in Jerusalem. It would have been impossible for faith in His resurrection to take root in Jerusalem while His body was still in the tomb where the Sanhedrin could exhume it, put it on public display, and thereby expose the hoax. Instead, the Sanhedrin accused the disciples of stealing the body, apparently in an effort to explain its disappearance (and therefore an empty tomb). How do we explain the fact of the empty tomb? Here are the three most common explanations:
First, the disciples stole the body. If this were the case, they would have known the resurrection was a hoax. They would not therefore have been so willing to suffer and die for it. (See the first line of evidence concerning demonstrably sincere eyewitness testimony.) All of the professed eyewitnesses would have known that they hadn’t really seen Christ and were therefore lying. With so many conspirators, surely someone would have confessed, if not to end his own suffering then at least to end the suffering of his friends and family. The first generation of Christians were absolutely brutalized, especially following the conflagration in Rome in A.D. 64 (a fire which Nero allegedly ordered to make room for the expansion of his palace, but which he blamed on the Christians in Rome in an effort to exculpate himself). As the Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus recounted in his Annals of Imperial Rome (published just a generation after the fire):
“Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.” (Annals, XV, 44)
Nero illuminated his garden parties with Christians whom he burnt alive. Surely someone would have confessed the truth under the threat of such terrible pain. The fact is, however, we have no record of any early Christian denouncing the faith to end his suffering. Instead, we have multiple accounts of post-resurrection appearances and hundreds of eyewitnesses willing to suffer and die for it.
If the disciples didn’t steal the body, how else do we explain the empty tomb? Some have suggested that Christ faked His death and later escaped from the tomb. This is patently absurd. According to the eyewitness testimony, Christ was beaten, tortured, lacerated, and stabbed. He suffered internal damage, massive blood loss, asphyxiation, and a spear through His heart. There is no good reason to believe that Jesus Christ (or any other man for that matter) could survive such an ordeal, fake His death, sit in a tomb for three days and nights without medical attention, food or water, remove the massive stone which sealed His tomb, escape undetected (without leaving behind a trail of blood), convince hundreds of eyewitnesses that He was resurrected from the death and in good health, and then disappear without a trace. Such a notion is ridiculous.
The Fifth Line of Evidence for Christ's resurrection:
Finally, a fifth line of evidence concerns a peculiarity of the eyewitness testimony. In all of the major resurrection narratives, women are credited as the first and primary eyewitnesses. This would be an odd invention since in both the ancient Jewish and Roman cultures women were severely disesteemed. Their testimony was regarded as insubstantial and dismissible. Given this fact, it is highly unlikely that any perpetrators of a hoax in 1st Century Judea would elect women to be their primary witnesses. Of all the male disciples who claimed to see Jesus resurrected, if they all were lying and the resurrection was a scam, why did they pick the most ill-perceived, distrusted witnesses they could find?
Dr. William Lane Craig explains, “When you understand the role of women in first-century Jewish society, what's really extraordinary is that this empty tomb story should feature women as the discoverers of the empty tomb in the first place. Women were on a very low rung of the social ladder in first-century Palestine. There are old rabbinical sayings that said, 'Let the words of Law be burned rather than delivered to women' and 'blessed is he whose children are male, but woe to him whose children are female.' Women's testimony was regarded as so worthless that they weren't even allowed to serve as legal witnesses in a Jewish court of Law. In light of this, it's absolutely remarkable that the chief witnesses to the empty tomb are these women... Any later legendary account would have certainly portrayed male disciples as discovering the tomb - Peter or John, for example. The fact that women are the first witnesses to the empty tomb is most plausibly explained by the reality that - like it or not - they were the discoverers of the empty tomb! This shows that the Gospel writers faithfully recorded what happened, even if it was embarrassing. This bespeaks the historicity of this tradition rather than its legendary status." (Dr. William Lane Craig, quoted by Lee Strobel, The Case For Christ, Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1998, p. 293)
In Summary:
These lines of evidence: the demonstrable sincerity of the eyewitnesses (and in the Apostles’ case, compelling, inexplicable change), the conversion and demonstrable sincerity of key antagonists- and skeptics-turned-martyrs, the fact of the empty tomb, enemy attestation to the empty tomb, the fact that all of this took place in Jerusalem where faith in the resurrection began and thrived, the testimony of the women, the significance of such testimony given the historical context; all of these strongly attest to the historicity of the resurrection. We encourage our readers to thoughtfully consider these evidences. What do they suggest to you? Having pondered them ourselves, we resolutely affirm Sir Lionel’s declaration:
“The evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ is so overwhelming that it compels acceptance by proof which leaves absolutely no room for doubt.”
Recommended Resource: The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus by Gary Habermas.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 19, 2009 - 06:42am PT
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Fulfilled Prophecy: Evidence for the Reliability of the Bible
Print this ShareThis
8/22/2003
by Dr. Hugh Ross
Unique among all books ever written, the Bible accurately foretells specific events-in detail-many years, sometimes centuries, before they occur. Approximately 2500 prophecies appear in the pages of the Bible, about 2000 of which already have been fulfilled to the letter—no errors. (The remaining 500 or so reach into the future and may be seen unfolding as days go by.) Since the probability for any one of these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance averages less than one in ten (figured very conservatively) and since the prophecies are for the most part independent of one another, the odds for all these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance without error is less than one in 102000 (that is 1 with 2000 zeros written after it)!
God is not the only one, however, who uses forecasts of future events to get people's attention. Satan does, too. Through clairvoyants (such as Jeanne Dixon and Edgar Cayce), mediums, spiritists, and others, come remarkable predictions, though rarely with more than about 60 percent accuracy, never with total accuracy. Messages from Satan, furthermore, fail to match the detail of Bible prophecies, nor do they include a call to repentance.
The acid test for identifying a prophet of God is recorded by Moses in Deuteronomy 18:21-22. According to this Bible passage (and others), God's prophets, as distinct from Satan's spokesmen, are 100 percent accurate in their predictions. There is no room for error.
As economy does not permit an explanation of all the Biblical prophecies that have been fulfilled, what follows in a discussion of a few that exemplify the high degree of specificity, the range of projection, and/or the "supernature" of the predicted events. Readers are encouraged to select others, as well, and to carefully examine their historicity.
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(1) Some time before 500 B.C. the prophet Daniel proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26). He further predicted that the Messiah would be "cut off," killed, and that this event would take place prior to a second destruction of Jerusalem. Abundant documentation shows that these prophecies were perfectly fulfilled in the life (and crucifixion) of Jesus Christ. The decree regarding the restoration of Jerusalem was issued by Persia's King Artaxerxes to the Hebrew priest Ezra in 458 B.C., 483 years later the ministry of Jesus Christ began in Galilee. (Remember that due to calendar changes, the date for the start of Christ's ministry is set by most historians at about 26 A.D. Also note that from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. is just one year.) Jesus' crucifixion occurred only a few years later, and about four decades later, in 70 A.D. came the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus.
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to 5th power.)*
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(2) In approximately 700 B.C. the prophet Micah named the tiny village of Bethlehem as the birthplace of Israel's Messiah (Micah 5:2). The fulfillment of this prophecy in the birth of Christ is one of the most widely known and widely celebrated facts in history.
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to 5th power.)
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(3) In the fifth century B.C. a prophet named Zechariah declared that the Messiah would be betrayed for the price of a slave—thirty pieces of silver, according to Jewish law-and also that this money would be used to buy a burial ground for Jerusalem's poor foreigners (Zechariah 11:12-13). Bible writers and secular historians both record thirty pieces of silver as the sum paid to Judas Iscariot for betraying Jesus, and they indicate that the money went to purchase a "potter's field," used—just as predicted—for the burial of poor aliens (Matthew 27:3-10).
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to 11th power.)
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(4) Some 400 years before crucifixion was invented, both Israel's King David and the prophet Zechariah described the Messiah's death in words that perfectly depict that mode of execution. Further, they said that the body would be pierced and that none of the bones would be broken, contrary to customary procedure in cases of crucifixion (Psalm 22 and 34:20; Zechariah 12:10). Again, historians and New Testament writers confirm the fulfillment: Jesus of Nazareth died on a Roman cross, and his extraordinarily quick death eliminated the need for the usual breaking of bones. A spear was thrust into his side to verify that he was, indeed, dead.
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to 13th power.)
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(5) The prophet Isaiah foretold that a conqueror named Cyrus would destroy seemingly impregnable Babylon and subdue Egypt along with most of the rest of the known world. This same man, said Isaiah, would decide to let the Jewish exiles in his territory go free without any payment of ransom (Isaiah 44:28; 45:1; and 45:13). Isaiah made this prophecy 150 years before Cyrus was born, 180 years before Cyrus performed any of these feats (and he did, eventually, perform them all), and 80 years before the Jews were taken into exile.
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to 15th power.)
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(6) Mighty Babylon, 196 miles square, was enclosed not only by a moat, but also by a double wall 330 feet high, each part 90 feet thick. It was said by unanimous popular opinion to be indestructible, yet two Bible prophets declared its doom. These prophets further claimed that the ruins would be avoided by travelers, that the city would never again be inhabited, and that its stones would not even be moved for use as building material (Isaiah 13:17-22 and Jeremiah 51:26, 43). Their description is, in fact, the well-documented history of the famous citadel.
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to 9th power.)
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(7) The exact location and construction sequence of Jerusalem's nine suburbs was predicted by Jeremiah about 2600 years ago. He referred to the time of this building project as "the last days," that is, the time period of Israel's second rebirth as a nation in the land of Palestine (Jeremiah 31:38-40). This rebirth became history in 1948, and the construction of the nine suburbs has gone forward precisely in the locations and in the sequence predicted.
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to 18th power.)
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(8) The prophet Moses foretold (with some additions by Jeremiah and Jesus) that the ancient Jewish nation would be conquered twice and that the people would be carried off as slaves each time, first by the Babylonians (for a period of 70 years), and then by a fourth world kingdom (which we know as Rome). The second conqueror, Moses said, would take the Jews captive to Egypt in ships, selling them or giving them away as slaves to all parts of the world. Both of these predictions were fulfilled to the letter, the first in 607 B.C. and the second in 70 A.D. God's spokesmen said, further, that the Jews would remain scattered throughout the entire world for many generations, but without becoming assimilated by the peoples or of other nations, and that the Jews would one day return to the land of Palestine to re-establish for a second time their nation (Deuteronomy 29; Isaiah 11:11-13; Jeremiah 25:11; Hosea 3:4-5 and Luke 21:23-24).
This prophetic statement sweeps across 3500 years of history to its complete fulfillment—in our lifetime.
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 1 to 20th power.)
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(9) Jeremiah predicted that despite its fertility and despite the accessibility of its water supply, the land of Edom (today a part of Jordan) would become a barren, uninhabited wasteland (Jeremiah 49:15-20; Ezekiel 25:12-14). His description accurately tells the history of that now bleak region.
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to 5th power.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
(10) Joshua prophesied that Jericho would be rebuilt by one man. He also said that the man's eldest son would die when the reconstruction began and that his youngest son would die when the work reached completion (Joshua 6:26). About five centuries later this prophecy found its fulfillment in the life and family of a man named Hiel (1 Kings 16:33-34).
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to 7th power).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
(11) The day of Elijah's supernatural departure from Earth was predicted unanimously—and accurately, according to the eye-witness account—by a group of fifty prophets (2 Kings 2:3-11).
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to 9th power).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
(12) Jahaziel prophesied that King Jehoshaphat and a tiny band of men would defeat an enormous, well-equipped, well-trained army without even having to fight. Just as predicted, the King and his troops stood looking on as their foes were supernaturally destroyed to the last man (2 Chronicles 20).
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to 8th power).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
(13) One prophet of God (unnamed, but probably Shemiah) said that a future king of Judah, named Josiah, would take the bones of all the occultic priests (priests of the "high places") of Israel's King Jeroboam and burn them on Jeroboam's altar (1 Kings 13:2 and 2 Kings 23:15-18). This event occurred approximately 300 years after it was foretold.
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to 13th power).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since these thirteen prophecies cover mostly separate and independent events, the probability of chance occurrence for all thirteen is about 1 in 10138 (138 equals the sum of all the exponents of 10 in the probability estimates above). For the sake of putting the figure into perspective, this probability can be compared to the statistical chance that the second law of thermodynamics will be reversed in a given situation (for example, that a gasoline engine will refrigerate itself during its combustion cycle or that heat will flow from a cold body to a hot body)—that chance = 1 in 1080. Stating it simply, based on these thirteen prophecies alone, the Bible record may be said to be vastly more reliable than the second law of thermodynamics. Each reader should feel free to make his own reasonable estimates of probability for the chance fulfillment of the prophecies cited here. In any case, the probabilities deduced still will be absurdly remote.
Given that the Bible proves so reliable a document, there is every reason to expect that the remaining 500 prophecies, those slated for the "time of the end," also will be fulfilled to the last letter. Who can afford to ignore these coming events, much less miss out on the immeasurable blessings offered to anyone and everyone who submits to the control of the Bible's author, Jesus Christ? Would a reasonable person take lightly God's warning of judgment for those who reject what they know to be true about Jesus Christ and the Bible, or who reject Jesus' claim on their lives?
*The estimates of probability included herein come from a group of secular research scientists. As an example of their method of estimation, consider their calculations for this first prophecy cited:
Since the Messiah's ministry could conceivably begin in any one of about 5000 years, there is, then, one chance in about 5000 that his ministry could begin in 26 A.D.
Since the Messiah is God in human form, the possibility of his being killed is considerably low, say less than one chance in 10.
Relative to the second destruction of Jerusalem, this execution has roughly an even chance of occurring before or after that event, that is, one chance in 2.
Hence, the probability of chance fulfillment for this prophecy is 1 in 5000 x 10 x 2, which is 1 in 100,000, or 1 in 10 to 5th power.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 19, 2009 - 07:29am PT
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Werner Von Braun built rockets for the Nazis which killed many innocent people in England. Hardly a sterling character reference. You'd be better off to quote some other scientist to make your case.
As for Biblical prophesies, what seems so obvious to people who want to believe, is an obscure saying to others. And it's a relatively easy to look back on history and pick and choose known events to fit those obscurities.
I think if you were to investigate with an open mind, you would find the Vedas and Upanishads of India contain at least as many prophesies as the Old Testament and are as accurate in retrospect too.
I know it is very important to some people to believe these scriptures literally but personally I just don't get it. Why can't you just accept Jesus on the merits of His message and then try to live as He described?
Why do you and others feel it necessary to go through such complicated and convoluted interpretations to appreciate His life and message? Why use intricate head games to explain a man who was all heart?
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 19, 2009 - 08:01am PT
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Because God clearly asks you to look at the evidence so that when someone disputes His word you'll be equipped to defend Him.
Jan, throughout the Bible God uses examples of people that were clearly against, or haters of His word and ultimately transforms them to represent His word. Saul couldn't have been a better example of this. The Bible is a love letter and clearly presents God's case. You know, no matter what I say or what God says, to be more correct, there will always be those that just refuse to let His word into their lives so, God even gives those people a chance to present their case:
"Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob." Isaiah 41:21
Why would anyone put their reputation on the line by asking them to do this if what they say isn't true? Think about that! If there is a loop-hole in God's word then someone is going to try to find it, but they won't. But, clearly He is saying, "Produce your cause...". That's pretty bold if you ask me!
And as far as the Indian prophecies you refer to, show me where they are 100% accurate all the time, every time.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 19, 2009 - 08:15am PT
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illusion dweller-
Don't you mean Paul/Saul who was a persecutor of Christians before his conversion rather than Peter who was only guilty of being weak and afraid?
Meanwhile, I don't deny the God of Jesus, but it seems to me He presented a new way of looking at God, calling him Abba, Daddy, probably because he had the same problems with the jealous and blood thirsty God of the Old Testament that I and others have.
I will say again, Jesus and His message can stand on its own. He doesn't need any help from the Old Testament or from convoluted prophesies.
As for Indian prophesies, I'm not any more interested in them than the Hebrew versions.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 19, 2009 - 08:29am PT
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I stand corrected. I actually meant Saul before he was Paul (I made the change). Those articles that I posted were given to me and I thought they were good articles to defend God's word is all. And just to clarify...it's illusiondweller without the seperation for it's the name of a rock climb in Joshua Tree National Monument California's high desert that I chose as a username many years ago.
Also, God / Jesus / Holy Ghost...they're one in the same.
Jan, if it turns out that there is a heaven and a hell, then I hope that you won't be going to the latter because eternity isn't a long time, and is isn't a very long time, it's FOREVER! God forbid!
Praying for you.
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MH2
climber
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Dec 19, 2009 - 09:04am PT
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Stating it simply, based on these thirteen prophecies alone, the Bible record may be said to be vastly more reliable than the second law of thermodynamics.
Thank you for stating it so simply.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 19, 2009 - 12:26pm PT
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Jan wrote
I know it is very important to some people to believe these scriptures literally but personally I just don't get it. Why can't you just accept Jesus on the merits of His message and then try to live as He described?
Why do you and others feel it necessary to go through such complicated and convoluted interpretations to appreciate His life and message? Why use intricate head games to explain a man who was all heart?
I'm with Jan here. Quit the idolotry of the book. Jesus interpreted it rather liberally himself and often seemed to contradict its literal teaching.
In the new testament there's plenty of bending apparent prophecies that they appear to be fulfilled or bending events to meet the prophesies.
The two gospels renditions of the birth of Jesus are no reconcilable and some of their explanations have no basis in common sense or history. Did they go to Egypt or Nazareth afterwards?
(Imagine Obama establishing a tax that required everybody return (even with cars) to their ancestral homeland of many generations ago. Why? Where would people go? No record of any such thing ever in the ancient world.
Looking back at the prophesies used to establish the old testament credentials of Jesus, it's clear if you read them that they referred to something else entirely, (like Israel)
I mean Jesus predicted the coming of the kingdom of God and said it would come to pass during the generation of the people he was speaking to. I have to count that as a prediction that didn't come true.
There are 5000 existing manuscripts of the Bible, Not one of them is identical to even one other. Some major stories (like the almost stoning of the woman for adultery) weren't even included in the bible until after the year 1200.
But why quibble? I just suggest you don't make a God out of a book. Jesus didn't
Peace
Karl
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 19, 2009 - 02:04pm PT
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illusiondweller-
The world suffers from tens of thousands of rapists, murderers, and hideous torturers, not to mention the liars and cheats, but you have to pray for me because I'm in danger of going to hell for not interpreting the Bible like you do?
That's a little out of proportion don't you think?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 19, 2009 - 08:02pm PT
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Jan, I'm sure your better then most of us, I know I'm a sinner and need forgiveness myself, but it's not that God keeps an account that with more checks in the good column your in? God still has forgiveness left for everyone even after forgiving me!
The Righteousness of God Through Faith
Romans 4:21-31, But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 19, 2009 - 08:26pm PT
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Gobee:
I think what Jan is saying is that god would be more pleased were you to apply your prayers to
people in desperate immediate need. Your interpretation of the bible is your interpretation and
there is a real possibility your interpretation is not god's. If so your prayers for Jan are wasted.
There is no question those other people need help.
It is simply a matter of getting the most good out of your prayers.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Dec 19, 2009 - 08:59pm PT
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Rom.3:23 (KJV)
"[23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
John.8:7 (KJV)
"[7] So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."
No need to be casting stones at one another, because it can certainly be thrown back many fold. Every believer is at a different place in their walk with GOD. Some are far down the road, others are just starting. The fact that we all have faith in GOD and his Son and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ should be sufficient for getting along and talking it out without judgement. Lord knows we will not agree on all doctrine or the value of GOD's Holy Word.
We need to be patient with one another with love and humility. Remember, the first shall be last, and the last shall be first among us.
Regarding Werner Von Braun, he was a Nazi. We brought him over in Operation Paperclip. In his later years it does seem that he had a change of heart. Even GOD can save the worst among us if we truly repent. I would like to think that he did and his faith was sincere. The book, Dark Mission: The Secret History of NASA, goes into this in great detail.
It was Werner who warned us what the power elite would do some day . . .
"Just before he [von Braun] died, he gave an interview to Carol Rosin, in which he basically said that in order to sustain the military-industrial complex that first a false threat of terrorists would be created and used on the public and then asteroids and finally a false alien threat."
http://educate-yourself.org/cn/cosmicdeception04apr03.shtml
"As immense as that game is, there is a bigger one: Control through fear. As Werner Von Braun related to Dr. Carol Rosin, his spokesperson for the last 4 years of his life, a maniacal machine - the military, industrial, intelligence, laboratory complex - would go from Cold War, to Rogue Nations, to Global Terrorism (the stage we find ourselves at today) to the ultimate trump card: A hoaxed threat from space.
To justify eventually spending trillions of dollars on space weapons, the world would be deceived about a threat from outer space, thus uniting the world in fear, in militarism and in war.
Since 1992 I have seen this script unveiled to me by at least a dozen well-placed insiders. Of course, initially I laughed, thinking this just too absurd and far-fetched. Dr. Rosin gave her testimony to the Disclosure Project before 9/11. And yet others told me explicitly that things that looked like UFOs, but that are built and under the control of deeply secretive 'black' projects, were being used to simulate - hoax - ET-appearing events, including some abductions and cattle mutilations, to sow the early seeds of cultural fear regarding life in outer space. And that at some point after global terrorism, events would unfold that would utilize the now-revealed Alien Reproduction Vehicles (ARVs, or reversed-engineered UFOs made by humans by studying actual ET craft - see the book 'Disclosure' by the same author) to hoax an attack on Earth."
--Dr. Steven Greer
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Dec 19, 2009 - 09:40pm PT
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Get this and TR's song thread off my Climbing website. I'm gonna go cook dinner and dream of sunny Granite moderates.....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 19, 2009 - 11:03pm PT
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Klimmer-
This is your first conspiracy theory that has made any sense to me at all. I think however that alternative explanations are possible. In any case, eventually we will know.
Personally, I have maintained for years that the U.S. Air Force was testing saucer like machines on the secret. When the stealth bomber came out and photos of it from the front were published it was obvious that some of the saucer sightings were that. Now we read that similarly designed predator drones exist so that accounts for more. The significance of Roswell seems pretty clear too, as it is the turnaround point on a direct flight path out of Edwards Air Force Base in southern California where most aircraft are tested.
As for black ops, I wouldn't be surprised if we weren't designing saucer like devices to wage psychological war on somebody some day. I also wouldn't put it past some of our Air Force and psyops folks to make alien dummies to put in some of these machines to try to scare people away from them if they crash and also just for the fun of it.
We have special elite units who make a practice of sneaking into various government installations just to test their ongoing security, and they also like to leave signature calling cards behind as jokes. We have other units who practice by doing strange things and telling people tall tales just to test what they can get away with and how people react psychologically. Whole other groups of our people are trained in how to hypnotize the unwary.
Before we have to worry about a great saucer hoax being launched on us however, our treasury will first be drained by the costs of replacing all the equipment destroyed in the past ten years of warfare. And since terrorism isn't going away any time soon, I think that will keep our military in business beyond our own lifetimes.
Anyway, we will see.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 19, 2009 - 11:16pm PT
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illusiondweller-
I find it really sad that on this website, Christian history is repeated once again. Instead of focussing on the very real evil in this world, Christians once again waste their time pointing out perceived errors in other's interpretations of dogma and then try to scare them with threats of hell.
I personally believe that praying that someone will come to agree with your own religious interpretations is a form of blasphemy. If you really believe that we are created with free will, don't you think it's an infringement on that free will to try to force someone else's beliefs to agree with your own, with prayer or other means?
Doesn't the Bible say God is the one who will judge us?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 20, 2009 - 12:50am PT
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"Doesn't the Bible say God is the one who will judge us?"
That's why we need Jesus!
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jstan
climber
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Dec 20, 2009 - 12:59am PT
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When you read the words in a book and you decide how another person shall conduct their lives
you are playing god.
Jan has used the correct word.
Blasphemy.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 20, 2009 - 02:21am PT
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It really does seem blasphemous when somebody tries to tell you that God condemns perfectly sincere people of integrity to billions of years of suffering with no possibility of respite for the crime of lack of blind faith in a doctrine.
It would be less insulting to suggest that Jesus sexually molested children than to posit such a monster deity.
I can see how such thinking helped missionaries scare converts into signing up but the evidence is thin enough in the book to call this sort of fire and brimstone heresy to lovers of God.
Peace
Karl
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 20, 2009 - 02:30am PT
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I'm not judging you at all Jan...I just said I'd pray for you for it appeared by your responses that you weren't saved from going to hell. I am saved, wouldn't you want to be? That's all that was intended. Here's where I got some motivation among many others in the Bible...
"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and say all mannner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." Matt 5:11
Based on this scripture alone, look at what responses I've already generated and what further responses it'll generate and what God promises to me for doing so. Again, my intention is not to judge you Jan. You know, as well as I do, that it is very difficult to express your real intentions through text and this is an obvious example. I need so much help myself, I'd hope to hear that you'd pray for me if I asked or even if I didn't and I wouldn't take it as a judgement but a sincere act of compassion. If you would do this I sure could use it. Thanks Jan. And if you don't mind, I'll keep you in my prayers too. In closing check out this biblical definition:
Love - "The willing, sacrificial, giving of oneself, for the benefit of another, with no thought of return." So, if that person retorts back at me with wrath or an intent to do harm when my intent was to help, it doesn't matter or offend me for I was willing to sacrifice my reputation for the benefit of you, Jan, with no thought of return or gain. This is not about me Jan, but to those that might perish, for:
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9
Stay in touch,
Gary
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 20, 2009 - 08:45am PT
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illusiondweller-
The problem with religious people is that they tend to hang out with other religious people who think like they do and then they presume that their reality is everyone else's.
If you can't see that it's more than a little presumptuous to think that you can know the state of my mind and the mind of an infinite God and are sure that you are "saved" and I am damned for eternity, then of course you won't perceive yourself as arrogant and judgmental.
Instead, you see yourself as the victim, misunderstood and persecuted for speaking the "truth".
I could of course, retaliate by threatening to pray for you, that you become more open minded?!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 20, 2009 - 09:39am PT
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"Blasphemy"
John 3:17-18, For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Jesus is the sure way otherwise your on your own!
Me and Thee
The Christmas Story is not
at Baby Jesus birth
but at Calvary
Where He took are sin's
and nailed them to a tree
Their debt was paid (in-full)
in Christ's atoning death
In His Resurrection
we are freed to live in
God's Glorious Presence
(for all eternity)
God so loved the world
Jesus died for you and me
Christ lives for me and thee!
Gobee
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Dec 20, 2009 - 10:38am PT
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Hugs everybody.
C'mon get along.
:-))
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 20, 2009 - 02:56pm PT
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well interesting seeing how all this has developed since I last posted here.
I haven't posted largely because I felt that it was useless to argue against what everyone "knows" to be true. An article in today's NYTimes Magazine got me thinking again.
It really points out, as this thread also exemplifies, that there are two largely different ways of thinking, and that the arguments are actually centuries old and not likely to end based on logical confrontation because their foundations are based on very different beliefs, which are fundamentally incompatible.
There is a classic belief that human logic alone provides the basis understanding the human condition. It is essentially the viewpoint of the religious, spiritual, mystical, and classical humanities schools of study. The point being that we can logically understand what is "natural law," and a set of ethics based on that natural law which defines morality. Not only that, but the origin of that natural law may not be accessible empirically.
The second competing school believes that human logic is flawed and that for it so be useful it must adhere to two constraints: rigorous mathematical logic and empirical testing. These constraints ensure that we are not lead astray by logical arguments which cannot be resolved.
The classical example is the "proof of god" arguments. Simply put, one can make a logical construction of god that avoids all empirical tests. Oddly enough, mathematics is structurally agnostic and its logical foundations are used by both sides of the debate. So constructed, one cannot disprove god. Similarly it is easy to provide an empirical model of the universe which does not require god. It is more difficult to demonstrate those empirical models are correct in every instance, the basis for provisionalism of empirical models.
Most people are unconcerned with the extreme points of view of either of these two competing intellectual view points. And people who strongly believe in one, often discount the other as being obviously irrelevant. When pushed into argument, both sides will often use extremes in logic to underscore their debating points.
Both sides of this argument do believe that there is a "truth" out there. Both camps of scholars believe that their pathway to that "truth" is the correct one, and they both chafe under the burden of proof demanded by the other.
The NYTimes article, to me, brought home the fact that this is not an idle academic exercise, but one that influences our lives directly.
The "enlightenment" period of European history took up "science" because it moved the authority of argument from people to nature, by demanding those two previously stated constraints. They, the enlightenment, appropriated the term "natural law" from the "scholastics," who meant it to be about what we "know" to be true, not what we could demonstrate to be true.
The problem with "people based authority" in these matters opens up the problem of establishing a person who is the authority. As hundreds of posts to this thread have shown, since I last posted, there is no accepted authority. Even within the Christian belief there are major disagreements on doctrine. When one expands even slightly to Judaism and Islamism the disagreements are much much larger. Now try to take it to even a larger group of religious, spiritual, mystical set of beliefs and there is no resolution. Yet they all believe that there exists a realm beyond the mere physical realm that explains the human condition.
So who is the authority, and who decides, and how do we know it?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 20, 2009 - 03:03pm PT
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Ed
Excellent analysis with an excellent last sentence.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 20, 2009 - 03:41pm PT
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Ed writes
There is a classic belief that human logic alone provides the basis understanding the human condition. It is essentially the viewpoint of the religious, spiritual, mystical, and classical humanities schools of study. The point being that we can logically understand what is "natural law," and a set of ethics based on that natural law which defines morality. Not only that, but the origin of that natural law may not be accessible empirically.
I would thoroughly deny that the mystical or spiritual schools would have that belief in logic. There are other forms of knowledge and perception.
then
"...Now try to take it to even a larger group of religious, spiritual, mystical set of beliefs and there is no resolution. Yet they all believe that there exists a realm beyond the mere physical realm that explains the human condition.
So who is the authority, and who decides, and how do we know it?..
In some ways the bottom line is this: Life is a great mystery and adventure. You're not going to be able to be fulfilled by any else's answers, even if they have good ones, because the ultimate things in life need to be experienced within yourself. We each have to evolve and grow ourselves.
Take unconditional Love. Do you know it exists? How logical is it and how do we apply math to it? If somebody could prove it is real, that still wouldn't mean you have access to its benefits.
We all have to find out for ourselves. We all have to ask ourselves how to live, what our values are, what our standards of truth are.
Scientific method? I'd love to hear about this, because it escapes me... Let's propose that certain mystical analogies are correct and that this universe is basically the persistent dream of the ultimate Being. Let's also assume this Being sees no reason to contradict nor interfere in the actions of it's own laws in this dream universe. What are some experiments and mathematics that we can bring to bear on testing this?
PEace
Karl
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 20, 2009 - 03:51pm PT
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I think you missed the point of my post, Karl...
it is not about the answers to these questions.
... I believe what you are saying: follow what you feel to be true and ask for no more than that. Essentially you are saying the authority to determine truth rests with each individual's experience, that there is no other authority, nor is one needed.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 20, 2009 - 04:05pm PT
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No he's not saying that.
You are describing relative authority.
Relative authority is already there.
And that's all there is, they say.
But why induce to go here and there if one gets in one place everything?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 20, 2009 - 04:06pm PT
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so Werner, what is the absolute authority, how do you know?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 20, 2009 - 04:16pm PT
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Ed wrote
I believe what you are saying: follow what you feel to be true and ask for no more than that. Essentially you are saying the authority to determine truth rests with each individual's experience, that there is no other authority, nor is one needed.
Let me elaborate a bit.
First, scientists and believers both have to question their own assumptions and beliefs. Our minds have so many ways of fooling us. It's much better to nurture a caring heart and only half-believe anything, than embrace beliefs as if they solved very much. (particularly when those beliefs require judging or killing people to implement)
Also, there are different realms of knowledge, personal/spiritual and material. The scientific method works great for material knowledge and we make use of the increasing body of knowledge in our technology and lifestyle.
Science gives us no "out" though on the meaning of life and how to navigate this earth journey in our meat suit. Lots of teachers, books and beliefs claim to be authorities for us but how are we to know who do believe and how literally? Even if we believed, do we have correct understanding?
Ultimately, there is a spiritual place where this great game is not so easily solved and we have to live and evolve with answers from within that become more clear in time but sometimes at the expense of our previous expectations and beliefs.
And we should even question how important belief is. They are often ideas that come and go in our brains without touching our hearts. You might have to suspect that meditation might be a worthwhile endeavor to give it a chance but real change and experience don't come directly from beliefs. Most of us believed in Santa because some authority told us. We tell our kids other lies from our positions of authority based on their pleasure or own good. Sometime they misinterpret what we say. Can we prove that God wouldn't do so as well?
We want the comfort of having the answers. Not so easy, not so fast. Let's admit that there is a personal spiritual level of things that we all live in whether we choose to think about it or not. You can drop the word "spiritual" but we all live within ourselves. We have to deal with that or suffer from not dealing with it (not from God's punishment, but from our own twisted self-identity)
Peace
Karl
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 20, 2009 - 04:25pm PT
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but you are saying, in brief, that the authority comes from within, "that which touches our heart"
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 20, 2009 - 04:39pm PT
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I don't mention authority because at a certain personal level...there isn't any!
Or even if there is, we can't absolutely know to trust it.
Imagine a 13 year old kid trying to figure out his goals, priorities and how to live.
Can he really trust his dad (who undoubtedly has his own strengths and weaknesses)? Mom?
How about the Bible? Should he go with the part about Loving his enemy or how to treat his slaves?
What's science say to the Kid? If he's unhappy, he'll get a prescription for depression meds that might have a side effect of suicidal tendencies.
We have to grow and evolve within our own process and no authority will solve it for us. They may guide us if we use their guidance with what wisdom we have. Do we really have to know for sure?
We grow up in time but there's always more. We are always faced with the eternal question of "who/what are we? and the evolving answers that come to us in that exploration. We can take subjective and objective data into account along with intuition, logic, and introspection.
That said, if a person prays to God for guidance and somehow, somewhere, I think they will get help if they are open to it. Somehow, it works. They better also pray that they won't add their own assumptions and prejudice to the answers they somehow get.
I'm not a big fan of authority. Werner mentions it a lot but I believe he still has to come to terms with the issues of how he interprets and acts of the authority he is willing to acknowledge.
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 20, 2009 - 05:03pm PT
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I've said this many times that God is the Supreme Absolute Authority.
For the materialist the absolute authority is death, the desolation of the material body. This is an absolute fact.
One is kicked out of their body at the end of x amount of breaths which can be extended or shortened according to ones actions.
authority comes from within
It also comes from without. Other wise the material creation would be considered false. But it is not false, it is temporary.
In all cases authority is true.
The master in his own house is the final authority for the dog.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 20, 2009 - 05:41pm PT
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You've also said that authority comes from scripture, which begs the question, which scripture? But then we repeat ourselves.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 20, 2009 - 05:50pm PT
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There are no ultimate answers. That's why we keep working on it.
good thing!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 20, 2009 - 06:23pm PT
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"There are no ultimate answers. That's why we keep working on it."
It is always now, and God loves us!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 20, 2009 - 06:25pm PT
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GoBee writes
God loves us!
I believe it.
I notice that I don't mind the smell of my own farts either!
;-)
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 20, 2009 - 06:27pm PT
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There are no ultimate answers.
That is an ultimate answer and contradicts.
The conception of God and the conception of Absolute Truth are not on the same level.
The conception of God indicates the controller, whereas the conception of the Absolute Truth indicates the summum bonum or the ultimate source of all energies.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 20, 2009 - 06:49pm PT
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There is a great gap between science and theology in that science attempts to find truth whatever it may be, good bad or indifferent: science seeks to discover what and how things are.
Theology seeks only a reconciliation to our existence, as in do not be afraid god loves you.
This attempt at reconciliation often places the reality that science searches for on the Procrustean bed of theological, mythological and religious need, as in the world is only five thousand years old.
God could settle the mystery of his existence in a second if he chose to. In choosing mystery over clear and honest revelation god himself seems to relish in the anxiety of his creation. How very strange.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 20, 2009 - 06:55pm PT
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Philippians 2:5-11, Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Birth of Jesus Foretold
Luke 1:26-38, In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin's name was Mary. And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!” But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and tried to discern what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?” And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God. And behold, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son, and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. For nothing will be impossible with God.” And Mary said, “Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.
Thru the Bible - Sunday Sermon - Dr. J. Vernon McGee
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/thru_the_bible_sunday_sermon/Archives.asp
*<((:-)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 20, 2009 - 08:54pm PT
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interesting that you would use the term summum bonum Werner, in particular, it forces a choice among many competing goods. One has to define the "highest good"... among many goods... how do you do that? how do you know which good is highest?
It is your choice in the end, but you state God has the ultimate authority. How is authority of god established and utilized?
Authority is usually referred to as the definitive reference... the opinion which is taken to be correct. Because many believe they have access to this definitive reference, but that each may have a different understanding of the reference, it is difficult to unfold, at least for me, what is actually part of the reference, and what is part of the interpretation of the reference.
Augustine had his opinions about this, but many here would probably disagree with him.
When you say "greatest" you are being relative... yet you say it as if it were absolute.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 20, 2009 - 09:00pm PT
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 20, 2009 - 09:06pm PT
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This is how we celebrate around my house ;-)
Paul, ...science attempts to find truth...
Liked what you had to say, but "truth" may not be the right word - possible explainations to questions regarding observed phenomena, maybe.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 20, 2009 - 09:24pm PT
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As I have told you before, there are three kinds of modes of material nature.
One is goodness, one is passion, and one is ignorance.
So ignorance is the lowest quality.
Passion is still better than ignorance.
And goodness is the highest good quality within this material world but still not perfect.
Thus one has to transcend even goodness to come to the stage of pure goodness.
Gold (example)
Gold retains it's value in the hand of Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc etc even atheist, equally.... (crude example)
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MH2
climber
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Dec 20, 2009 - 11:58pm PT
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So who is the authority, and who decides, and how do we know it?
Well, J. Goldberg is an authority on vestibular neurophysiology because he has studied it well, published in respected journals refereed by combative peers, and his results appear in basic texts on physiology.
Robert P. George is an authority on something completely different. We know he is because he, too, is respected by critical thinkers for his work.
There are many authorities and you might arrange them in a kind of hierarchy, but first ask yourself what you are truly interested in, what you want to know, and what potential significance it has for you.
Robert P. George says:
"I just hope I am right. If they are going to buy my arguments, I don’t want to mislead the whole church.”
J. Goldberg doesn't have that sort of worry.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 21, 2009 - 12:00am PT
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Thanks Ed!
I would agree with Karl that mystical understanding is different than the attempt to find the "natural reason" that some religions have pursued. Reason whether applied to science or religion is a left brain function, while mysticism is right brain.
In the West where religious authority has been centralized, religious people have always distrusted mystics for the very reason that they do rely foremost on their own experiential authority, just as artists and musicians do. That's also why mystics have worked out a system for themselves, of spiritual directors who are more experienced and know the pitfalls of experiential referencing.
The mystics would like to think that someday a new spiritual understanding can be forged between scientists and mystics - that the interior micro cosmic universe mirrors the complexities of macrocosmic multiple dimensions and black holes etc. Perhaps it is just a dream. From the Middle Ages forward however, the mystics and the scientists have stood on the same side against centralized religious authority.
Meanwhile, the mystics are developing a kind of blue print for the types of consciousness that one experiences as one progresses along the path. These experientially based guides have long existed in Asian traditions but are new to the West. The Western versions also have the advantage of being able to utilize Western psychology.
Currently mystics are attempting to come up with a unified theory of stages, in which the discoveries of both Eastern and Asian mystics and at least four different religions, East and West, can be incorporated. Neuro physiologists are also busy measuring the differences in terms of electrical activity in the brain.
Science so far has developed much better protocols for evaluating its intuitions than mystics have, but thanks to the growing popularity of meditation in the West and the scientific training of the mysticists, we are headed more in the scientist's direction.
Now as in the Middle Ages, the biggest threat to open inquiry of any kind comes from the religious people who are certain that truth exists at only one level in their approved scriptures and that it's already been discovered and merely needs to be repeated and conformed to at the dictates of some sort of authority.
The unanswered question in my mind is how many people who are still participating in some kind of traditional religion are ready to move in a more scientific, universal and mystical direction, and how many are still mired in literalist world view.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 21, 2009 - 12:14am PT
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Great post Jan
I thought this was particularly insightful
In the West where religious authority has been centralized, religious people have always distrusted mystics for the very reason that they do rely foremost on their own experiential authority, just as artists and musicians do. That's also why the mystics have worked out a system for themselves, of people who are more experienced and know the pitfalls of experiential referencing.
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 21, 2009 - 12:26am PT
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What's a mystic on experimental authority?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 21, 2009 - 12:37am PT
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Experiential not experimental.
One who experiences the mysteries of the human mind and universe rather than just reading or talking about them.
Of course there is an element of the experiemental about all this. The biggest challenge we have is trying to understand and control our own minds.
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MH2
climber
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Dec 21, 2009 - 12:38am PT
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The more the religion advocates post here, the more God comes across as an idealized parent who loves all his children unconditionally. What about the universe, people? If it was created by an immense subtle power beyond physics, why aren't you more interested in what it contains and how it works? Pretty cool parent, don't you think? Yes, there is love, and a whole lot of other things, too. Isn't the best way to appreciate the mind of God to study the product of it? Anyone who deeply and carefully ponders what we do know may come to the conclusion that God is so subtle He/She has created a Universe that not only has no evidence of Him/Her, but no need, either.
Religions may be like training wheels for people whose goodness is a little wobbly without help. I think that the more a person opens their mind to the physical world around them, and to the people around them, the less they need guidance from religious authority.
And please take the mysticism in graduated doses. People who look too much inside their own heads could lose perspective.
Compassion, love, and empathy can exist equally well in believer and non-believer. Using reason to explore the need for them seems unnecessary and may chase out good old common sense. Read what Robert P. George, Catholic logician, has concluded and make up your own minds.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 21, 2009 - 12:45am PT
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And please take the mysticism in graduated doses. People who look too much inside their own heads could lose perspective.
Good advice to all who make their living using their minds. Remember how Einstein's wife had to paint the front door orange, so he could remember which house was his?
And have some pity on those of us who have to attend faculty meetings with groups of whacked out self introspectors! Three hours of discussion to form a committee to then form another committee to talk about it all some more!
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 21, 2009 - 12:47am PT
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Jan
Oh thanks, "Experiential", sorry, my font is a bit small on this huge screen I have.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 21, 2009 - 01:06am PT
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Jan, it seems as in your military base where the different religions shared the building, we all have it at the same day and time?
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MH2
climber
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Dec 21, 2009 - 01:15am PT
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Remember how Einstein's wife had to paint the front door orange, so he could remember which house was his?
No, I don't.
But there is a story that John von Nuemann moved once within Boston when he was at Harvard. His wife had prepped him about the change of address but still through force of habit he took the same old bus home, couldn't get in to the old house, started to look for help and asked a young girl on the sidewalk if she could climb in a window for him. She said, "Just follow me Papa, I'll take you home." Probably not a true story.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 21, 2009 - 04:11am PT
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Neuro physiologists are also busy measuring the differences in terms of electrical activity in the brain.
If by that you mean the good folks at the McGovern Institute at MIT who do brain research and who have done fMRI scans on Tibetan monks and other meditators, none of the researchers there would ever likely characterize or want their work construed as any form of 'mystic research'. Here is a sample of some of the kinds of research they do (from Liane Young, of Rebecca Saxe's Social Cognitive Neuroscience Lab within the MIBR):
Moral Judgment & Theory of Mind
I study the neural basis of human moral judgment. I am primarily interested in the extent to which emotional processes inform moral judgment and the precise role of Theory of Mind, the capacity for mental state representation, in moral judgment. Are brain regions that support Theory of Mind recruited for moral judgment, specifically, judgment of intentional and unintentional harmful, helpful, and neutral actions? If so, what do their functional profiles reveal about belief attribution during moral judgment? What are the component processes of belief attribution for moral judgment, and does spontaneous belief attribution occur in certain moral contexts? To address questions like these, I use methods of cognitive neuroscience: functional neuroimaging (fMRI), studying patient populations with selective cognitive deficits, and modulating activity in specific brain areas using trancranial magnetic stimulation (TMS).
P.S. As an aside, here is the last line of Robert Hooke's preface to the King of England from his classic 'Micrographia' which presented some of the first science of our heretofore 'invisible' microscopic world - from the days when humans were first extending their vision into otherwise unseen realms.
Amidst all those greater Designs, I here presume to bring in that which is more proportionable to the smalness of my Abilities, and to offer some of the least of all visible things, to that Mighty King, that has establisht an Empire over the best of all Invisible things of this World, the Minds of Men.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 21, 2009 - 06:50am PT
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Gobee-
There are multiple services on the same day on military installations, but not at the same time. Right now the Sunday schedule is 8 am General Protestant, 10 am Catholic Mass, and 12 noon, the Black Gospel service. Simultaneously the Orthodox Christian service runs in a different room from 9:30 to 11 am. Hindu services are in another room at the same time as the Gospel service.
Each have their own chaplains and each service requires some set up time. Different sized choirs, communion or not etc., mean that the altar area has to be rearranged. Also of course, the cross and crusifix have to be moved back and forth.
On Fridays and Saturdays, the two Jewish services occur at the same time in different rooms that a Muslim service is going on in a room upstairs at the same time on Friday nights. If you listen carefully, you can sometimes hear Arabic and Hebrew floating in the air at the same time. Of course all the chaplains are members of the Officer Corps and socialize together regularly.
PS. I wanted to mention that I've enjoyed reading about the history of the various Christmas carols that you've posted.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 21, 2009 - 07:02am PT
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healeyje-
Thanks for the reference. I think I will ask my librarian to send for some of those articles. I have indeed heard of the MIT lab in conjunction with research that was done on Tibetan monks in which they found very different brain waves and processing than in the ordinary person. What they found was that experienced meditators used parts of their brain that would guarantee optimum compassion and happiness for the individual monks. This means that we have the ability to remodel our brain activity which was a surprise at the time. How many people are willing to do the necessary self effort as opposed to popping pills is another question.
The researchers I was referring to were cited in the book I've just finished called the Fingerprints of God and they are scattered across the country. They would say that they specialize in researching spirituality rather than mysticism. Spirituality means many things to many people however, whereas mysticism is a more specific term denoting specific experiences and the philosophy based on them starting with William James.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 21, 2009 - 10:06am PT
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Jan, Thanks, I like the history of the various Christmas carols as well!
Let me try again, what I wanted to say is on this "dugout" Forum, were all here at the same place and time...(when you read it), sharing are beliefs, like if their was only one service and everyone came all at once!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 21, 2009 - 10:51am PT
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Oops! Sorry Gobee.
I totally misunderstood you!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 21, 2009 - 11:15am PT
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Passion, works for me, kind of directed me all along....
We all make it up as we go along, taking into consideration what we learn along the way. Don't you guys get that? If you re-lie on a master plan, you're not doing your work. Buck up babe, responsibility is beautiful!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 21, 2009 - 11:38am PT
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the "highest good" has many dimensions, Werner has put forward the notion that it is the stripped down, polished up core "truth" common to all of the great religions and philosophies... I put "truth" in quotes because I realized I didn't really have a word for what I think Werner is suggesting. If I put "idea" there he'd jump all over me... what he is getting at, if I understand, is something that transcends ideas... so I'll just be vague and put "truth" and hope he doesn't take too many point off for that.
But the "highest good" is a phrase used to explore the conflicts among different types of good. There is the psychological good, sort of what Karl talks about. There is the good of doing what you have to do, your duty. And there is the good of "living well." These sorts of "good" can come into conflict with each other, and how these are to be resolved has been discussed in philosophy for as long as we know. This includes the Catholic Church, which certainly has a role in framing various discussions on the philosophy of life... as do other religions.
Interestingly, at least to me, these "goods" are related to our condition, and the basic problems of dealing with prioritizing human wants and needs. Religions and related philosophies often appeal to a set of absolute standards against which we achieve the correct balance.
In my view of this, mystics explore the realm in which all this takes place... I have my own opinions on where this realm is... but that's not the point here. The point is that to provide authority to those absolute standards, the realm in which they are created and exist must be real. That realm is very different from the normal, everyday physical reality, though they are constructed so that they exist together. The mystics are the explorers of that realm.
The definition is the inverse of Dennett's statement on consciousness. For the mystic, if it is not mysterious, than it is not mystical... so once you demystify it it exits from their domain of interest.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 21, 2009 - 12:11pm PT
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Every way of a man is right in his own eyes,
but the Lord weighs the heart.
To do righteousness and justice
is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15, Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
Hebrews 13:8, Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
Proverbs 21:30, No wisdom, no understanding, no counsel
can avail against the Lord.
Exodus 7:8-13, Then the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “When Pharaoh says to you, ‘Prove yourselves by working a miracle,’ then you shall say to Aaron, ‘Take your staff and cast it down before Pharaoh, that it may become a serpent.’” So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron cast down his staff before Pharaoh and his servants, and it became a serpent. Then Pharaoh summoned the wise men and the sorcerers, and they, the magicians of Egypt, also did the same by their secret arts. For each man cast down his staff, and they became serpents. But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs. Still Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the Lord had said.
Leviticus 11:44, For I am the Lord your God. Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am holy.
Hebrews 7:21-22, “The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind,
‘You are a priest forever.’”
This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.
Jesus is the Holy of Holy's, the way to the Father, to be in His Presence, the all access pass if you will.
The King of Kings and Lord of Lords
Romans 8:1, There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
"and to the farthest limit he searches out the rock in gloom and deep shadow... forgotten by the foot; they hang and swing to and fro far from men..."
I thought of El Cap!
*<((:-)
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jstan
climber
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Dec 21, 2009 - 12:47pm PT
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"In the West where religious authority has been centralized, religious people have always distrusted
mystics for the very reason that they do rely foremost on their own experiential authority, just as
artists and musicians do. That's also why mystics have worked out a system for themselves, of
spiritual directors who are more experienced and know the pitfalls of experiential referencing."
Very very good.
Now we have heard testimony in this thread from persons who have had personal experiences that
led them to god.
Are they mystics?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 21, 2009 - 02:23pm PT
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Just about everybody has had some mystical experience. Some might not have identified it as such, and others sort of forget about it in the face of not being able to make sense of it, talk about it, or digest it.
Mystics are those who, by natural ability, contemplation, meditation, plant medicines, or some other discipline or means, reproduce mystical experiences and deepen their ability of non-ordinary perception in their lives.
Peace
Karl
Note: Nice post Ed. It should be noted that, because of interconnectedness, these realms affect each other. If we take out our inner trash, all of a sudden, the world treats us better and we feel like treating the world better, we feel like we "need" less, and those around us benefit.
Alternately, (karma yoga) some folks take out their inner trash by service to humanity. It can tone down the attachment to ego and reinforce Love if done with the right awareness
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 21, 2009 - 04:42pm PT
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The mystic finds delight in the mystery, the mysterium tremendum et fascinans. Humanity finds comfort in the sublime experience of the imagined unknowable, the implication of a creator, a father, most of all a caretaker of generous proportions assuring the rightness of existence... all gods, and there are thousands, born from the mind of man to placate our anxieties.
But these imaginings are a fools paradise, because what is, is. It is undeniable that we live in a universe predicated on unimaginable violence, that life itself is nothing if not the perpetrator of a required, grotesque violence simply for the sake of survival.
Consider the implication for the chicken population upon the birth of one human being. What kind of a god would create a world in which life must feed upon life to survive? This is perhaps an "unpalatable" mystery?
God's universe is filled with what any reasonable thinker would call detestable elements.
The courageous confrontation is with the reality that the closest thing to a god in this existential nightmare we find ourselves may very well be us! Certainly we could do a better job.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 21, 2009 - 04:50pm PT
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I'm definitely not a mystic, I'm big rascal .....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 21, 2009 - 05:14pm PT
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I've experienced things I cannot explain, but beyond a bit of speculation I leave it at that and don't attempt to conjure up answers and absolutes to fill that void. It's o.k. to not have answers to everything.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 21, 2009 - 05:23pm PT
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Judging from the postings here on Supertopo, I wonder if ya'll would want to live in some kind of sanitized world with no pain, danger or sharp edges.
Maybe so, but I'm not sure
This is just one planet. We really don't know. We could be lab rats in some alien genetics experiment, like animals in a zoo...or this planet could be like hard knocks reform school for wayward souls.
Either way, personally, I see a rhyme, reason and lessons behind the negative things that happen to me and lately it's been a lot!
You can't know other's lives inside and out. Look at your own life and see if you the events reflect upon you in some synchronistic way
Peace
Karl
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 21, 2009 - 05:37pm PT
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You know, the forum is currently at 983,530 total posts. We're never going to make it to 1,000,000 by December 31st if you religious/political/conspiracy theory posters don't pick it up a little. Let's get with the program, eh?
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jstan
climber
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Dec 21, 2009 - 05:41pm PT
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Yessur.
For me this whole discussion is out there somewhere, floating and ill-defined. What does the
dictionary say about "consciousness." Wiki says mysticism "elevates the consciousness" so maybe
we need to know what the word means.
Consciousness:
a. the quality or state of being aware, especially, of something within oneself.
b. the state or fact of being aware of an external object, state, or fact
etc.
Well now we don't get much help there either. We need a list of "somethings" to look at. Maybe
one of those somethings might be that there is a tremendous presence covering the entire sky
that is solely devoted to phyically or emotionally protecting me. Or that I have the sensation of
flying with perfect vision through the night sky.
Nope. Ain't done either.
I like my definition.
Consciousness is the expectation or perception that the present moment will be followed by another moment.
Gobee, could you please keep your little bits on the page? Thanks.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 21, 2009 - 05:42pm PT
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Yah, that Werner is a trouble maker! lol
I'm just a sinner saved
Thank You, Jesus!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 21, 2009 - 06:03pm PT
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How can gods and mysticism co-exist? If there are gods to whom everything is attributable, then what constitutes 'mysticism'?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 21, 2009 - 06:25pm PT
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Dr. F writes
These so called "mystical" experiences are just a state of mind
Perhaps you shouldn't underestimate the mind. How would you know if there is an experience of youself beyond the mind? You're just typing.....
easily explained by modern psychologists
Because you type it so.
They do not prove that there is a God, that you are talking to God or that you are experiencing a mystical experience
Its called a state of Transcendence, and every one has them
There's no proving anything bro. You can't absolutely prove that you're not just dreaming. The only input you have of your own experience is through your own consciousness. Prove anything!
Bottom line, somebody made you go to Sunday school or otherwise inflicted some irrational religious judgements on you and you have a battle with this stuff. Throw the baby out with the bathwater if you wish, reality will be the same regardless of what you believe
Peace
Karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 21, 2009 - 07:51pm PT
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...reality will be the same regardless of what you believe.
Sounds like the best argument I've heard so far against gods and supreme authorities...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 21, 2009 - 08:02pm PT
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It's not an argument against anything. They, or it, exists or it doesn't.
It's another question what use or harm they, or it, can mean to you.
obviously plenty of disagreement about it here
How can gods and mysticism co-exist? If there are gods to whom everything is attributable, then what constitutes 'mysticism'?
Mysticism is just the practice of developing and utilizing perception beyond the physical senses.
The Role of God or Gods is open to debate.
Note: Christianity (and Islam and Judaism) believe in one God, (although Christianity may run into trouble with Trinity doctrine depending on how you read it) Also, Catholicism believes in praying to Saints and such.
Other religions, such as Hinduism, seem to believe in many Gods, although if pressed, most Hindus will admit that there is only one Ultimate God and that the various forms of God are just manifestations of the One Great Being. (sort of like Trinity doctrine)
Somewhere down the line, many doctrines believe in ascended masters, angels, and so on, which seem to have their own power, but again, if pressed, subscribers might admit those powers are on loan from the Divine.
Mysticism may or may not have any relationship to any of this stuff above. Some have used it to communication on levels outside of ordinary perception, but for some, it's just a means of accelerating the evolution of our Souls. SPirit exercise
You want you body to climb 5.13, you do some discipline and develop that, You want peace of mind and control over the storm inside our brains, that's another discipline. Then you learn something from whatever you find, without prejudging what that will be if you are a wise person
peace
Karl
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 21, 2009 - 08:03pm PT
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"Sounds like the best argument I've heard so far against gods and supreme authorities..."
Or for!
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 21, 2009 - 08:05pm PT
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There's only one God and only one Supreme authority and they are one and the same.
Supreme, you do know what that means?
This has been rascal post number 2
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MH2
climber
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Dec 21, 2009 - 08:36pm PT
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Roughly speaking, religion attempts to answer 2 big questions:
1. Where did this all come from?
2. How should I behave while I'm here?
For question #1 cosmology and evolution provide vastly more satisfactory answers. The best religion can do is gracefully move the goal post back before the Big Bang.
Question #2 is more open and needs all the help it can get.
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MH2
climber
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Dec 21, 2009 - 08:42pm PT
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How should I behave while I am here?
To take this question out of the abstract realm, here are two examples from real life which were used in a course in nursing school to give us an idea of how to act in certain situations.
I would be very interested if religion or spiritual oneness and love provide useful guidance. Anyone who feels they know what should be done in the following 2 cases is invited to justify their choice.
Case 1
M.K. is a 72-year old man who lives in a long-term care facility. A few years ago he suffered a stroke. He is now independently mobile in his wheelchair and cognitively intact. He has swallowing difficulties but he has a taste for ice cream. He had to be hospitalized last year for aspiration pneumonia and has been told that eating ice cream will almost certainly shorten his life. His brother and wife say that he should be given ice cream if he wants it. He is prepared to sign a waiver.
Some of the staff in the facility are unwilling to let M.K. have ice cream unless a doctor signs an order for it.
Should the doctor sign such an order?
If the doctor does, are staff justified in following it despite the health risk?
Case 2
George Burnham and Donald Mattison were patients in adjoining rooms in the rehab unit of a small medical center.
George was a 33-year-old severely retarded man who had lived in institutions since the age of three. His family had had no contact with him for over twenty years. George had been trained to feed himself and keep himself reasonably clean, but at the age of twenty-five he had suffered a cardiac arrest that left him with some paralysis and lack of bowel control. A second cardiac arrest has now left him even more dependent.
Donald Mattison, a 48-year-old businessman, active in community and church affairs, married, and the father of four, had suffered a minor stroke, which left him slightly paralyzed. In his six weeks on the rehab ward he has regained almost total use of his arm and leg. He is expected to make a full recovery.
One morning George has a third cardiac arrest. The cardiac team is there within 4 minutes but at that moment Donald also goes into arrest.
There is only one team and one crash cart. Should they go to Donald or continue with George?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 21, 2009 - 09:16pm PT
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Mh2-
The third big question that religion attempts to answer is what happens after we die.
Meanwhile, doctors and more often the nurses on duty are making the real life and death decisions under great time pressure and stress. They are often called upon to play God. I know because I used to work in a county nursing home and my sister was a neonatal nurse.
I think both of your cases however, are covered by existing law and ethics.
Now here's a case I encountered as a teenager working in a county nursing home. A bed ridden woman in her 80's prayed loudly from morning to night that she die that day. The only time she was quiet was when we fed her liquids.
Money being a factor, we accomplished this by holding her nose so she had to open her mouth to breathe (automatic reflex) and then sticking the long spout of a teapot into her mouth and pouring so she was forced to swallow it or choke. If she didn't want to eat, and wanted to die after a long life, should we have let her?
Personally, I came to the conclusion at the age of 16, that there are fates worse than death and we have the fundamental human right to make our own decisions in that regard.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 21, 2009 - 09:33pm PT
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Dr. F.
They do not prove that there is a God, that you are talking to God or that you are experiencing a mystical experience
You are right on the first two counts but we do now have the technology to measure the electrical activity and location of that activity while people are having mystical experiences. I wrote a bit about this while you were gone.
Some findings. Charismatics praying and speaking in tongues use one part of their brain and quiet meditators another. Both light up their respective areas much brighter than any "normal" person ever has on those machines. Advanced Tibetan meditators display super fast brain waves indicating that they take in and process much more sensory information than the average person.
They also have the ability to transfer emotional reactions which take place in the right frontal lobes, into their left frontal lobe which deals with reason. They then use Buddhist philosophy to deal with it. They are not without emotion, nor is it repressed, it is dealt with in a rational way rather than an emotional way.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 21, 2009 - 09:58pm PT
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Karl-
Great job of explaining a tough topic!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 21, 2009 - 10:01pm PT
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God also gave us chocolate?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 21, 2009 - 10:10pm PT
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Ed-
You've got it. What Karl and I are talking about is using an entirely different part of our brain than the scripture quoting people. And we are explorers of the nature of mind for sure. We may choose to add a philosophy to our experiences to try to make sense of it all or just go along for the trip. In either case, certain changes take place in our personalities and from what science has been able to measure so far, in our actual brain structure.
My final contribution to all this is going to be willing my brain to science along with a list of all the strange biochemical and electrical experiences I've had, as well as their corelations to traditional theories of meditation stages. Hopefully science can then make some co-relations.
I like to think of it as doing first free ascents of my own mind.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 21, 2009 - 10:10pm PT
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"Love? Considerably overrated. Biochemically indistinguishable from the effects of consuming large quantities of chocolate."
Al Pacino ("John Milton") The Devil's Advocate
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 21, 2009 - 10:17pm PT
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Religion doesn't try to get it right or seek to shed light on what things are.
The primary service of religion is to reconcile you to all the sh*t that's going to happen to you in this life.
What Religion does is to create the illusion of sense and purpose out of our pathetically finite, sorrowful and purposeless existence.
The many Religions of the world all seek to do this same thing, to remove any anxiety about our coming oblivion through myths that essentially tell us everything will be fine if we just stick to a particular plan... the by products of religion include moral codes, belief systems, ritual and tradition (the illusion of permanence) that ensure our salvation and our souls continued existence.
Mystical experience is the comforting illusion of benevolent powers beyond the forms of sensibility.
It's very real, I'm sure, to those participating. The world is a scary place and mystical encounters are virtually all reassuring. Isn't it interesting that all religions propose the positive, that death is but a veil to another existence? We humans are masters of self delusion!
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 21, 2009 - 10:25pm PT
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We humans are masters of self delusion!
You just confirmed you are deluded ....
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 21, 2009 - 10:27pm PT
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The world is a scary place and mystical encounters are virtually all reassuring.
The Bardo Thodol doesn't pull any punches in that regard, though. Terrifying stuff is par for the course there. A lot of shamanic mystic reveries are pretty horrific, too, but they're not easily packaged for modern mass consumption either.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 21, 2009 - 10:31pm PT
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Yes, and awareness is where true enlightenment begins.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 21, 2009 - 10:38pm PT
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The terror or horror of shamanic experience is almost always a function of penetrating the sublime.
In that process fear and anxiety are exhausted and the individual shaman is strengthened... made more powerful.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 21, 2009 - 10:40pm PT
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No one who has stuck with meditation for any length of time will tell you that it's all love and light. The whole purpose of it is to clear the repressed ugly stuff out, which isn't so easy.
The Bardo Thodul, or Tibetan Book of the Dead is to guide you in the best possible way in case you haven't dealt with it before you die.
Religion is one thing, spiritual practice is another.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 21, 2009 - 10:42pm PT
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Religion is one thing, spiritual practice is another.
Very Good
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 21, 2009 - 10:50pm PT
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The TBD is like any other religious text: it is a guide to something better than the experience we know as life. It offers a release from sorrow as does the Christian bible or the Koran or EBTD. Spiritual practice and ritual are simply a way of making the myth more real. The myth of salvation is validated by the ritual spiritual experience. It completes the delusion.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 21, 2009 - 11:06pm PT
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Religious people certainly often struggle because religion tells them one thing and their human nature and desire pull them another way.
People can deal with that conflict in healthy and unhealthy ways, as we may have seen. Denial is a common pitfall and the root of some abuse.
Mysticism might be prone to it's own delusions, but is by no means easy. Shirking fear will stop you in your tracks in mysticism.
Paul might consider that Religion might give people comfort about death but those faiths that believe in Karma and Reincarnation expect no free lunch and don't relish the prospect of coming back into a helpless undeveloped state and doing life after life over again, learning every unlearnt lesson and paying back debts from other lives. Only the Christians and Muslims think of the afterlife as the instant permanent bliss zone for the faithful.
Fact is, Religion and even Spirituality have different roles in the minds of every person. Some latch on to the social connection, some to feeling righteous and justified, some to Love, some to ease common human self-loathing or to complement it. Some seek to kill the pain. Then some have had a taste of grace and seek more of that Light.
No matter what ideas of Religion and Spirituality are in your mind, your real Spirituality, which EVERYBODY has, is the everyday state of your heart and mind, how Love is with you. That can expand and deepen with or without thought of God but Spirit is nonetheless present.
Not some Spirit that is separate and angry with you, judging you and putting obstacles in your path, but something intimately close and all accepting. To know it even a bit is to Love it. The God we hate is just our concept of God. Everybody Loves Love, even when we struggle about it
Peace
Karl
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 21, 2009 - 11:13pm PT
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The TBD does not offer a release from sorrow. It offers a way to make the right decisions at the time of your death so that you end up again in a good place to keep on improving yourself in your next life.
Unless you have a major biochemical imbalance as the result of genetics, happiness is a choice. I found the first step in the process was to stop reading the existentialists.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 21, 2009 - 11:23pm PT
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Aaaaah! If only it were that easy!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 21, 2009 - 11:31pm PT
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Meanwhile, I'd like to go back to something jstan asked a few pages back.
Now we have heard testimony in this thread from persons who have had personal experiences that led them to god.
Are they mystics?
As best I can understand, they had a mystical experience but then tried to explain it or give it meaning with left brain verbal interpretations of a quite literal kind.Thus they are not mystics.
I must admit, that's what puzzles me about them. How do you have a living experience and then bind it all up in literalism? Of course people like me frustrate people like them in the opposite direction. I'm familiar with their scriptures, yet have come to entirely different conclusions about their meaning.
Interesting no?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 21, 2009 - 11:33pm PT
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It's because of sin that the world can be a bad place! But you can be at peace with God in your heart through Jesus, what we could not do He did because He was without sin!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 21, 2009 - 11:44pm PT
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Gobee-
Hinduism and Buddhism teach that we can all become without sin if we work at it enough. Certainly, Buddha is considered to have attained the state of being sinless (without karma) at the time of his enlightenment as have all the other masters who became enlightened.
Being sinless does not mean not making mistakes, it means doing whatever you do without sinful motivation. You might see it as the final stage of being born again.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 21, 2009 - 11:50pm PT
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We are not perfect but perfect in weekness, God is the Father!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 22, 2009 - 12:10am PT
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so I have to disagree with Karl on one of his favorite refrains: "how do you know you're not dreaming?"
Everyone has experience differentiating dreams from reality. Even "vivid dreams" are notable for their, well vividness, but we do not mistake them for wakeful reality. It is perhaps were the first inklings of a "mystical state" appear. Things happen in dreams that are apart from the things that happen while we're awake, and we know it.
If these were not different, dreaming and wakeful reality, we would not be able to tell them apart. So in that sense, we might be in a dream like state which we cannot differentiate from reality, but then we wouldn't know it.
We also have the experience that dreams happen "inside of us" and are internal rather than external. This is a common experience.
Another set of experiences is altering what we perceive by some external chemical means or by stressing the body in some way. These are common shamanistic techniques to induce a mystical or spiritual state, the use of ingested chemicals, or fasting, or continuous exertion. Once again, there is no doubt in these experiences that we are affecting something internal.
The primary organ with which we connect to a mystical or spiritual state is the brain, which is the seat of the mind. Even so called "out of body" experiences involve the mind.
When Jan talks about the way we think about these things she emphasizes the bicameral aspect of behavior which is associated with a anatomical asymmetry in the brain. Once again, these characteristics are associated, strongly with the brain, and inferences to mind.
So one can conclude that it is the mind that controls our connection to these mystical and spiritual, and religious awareness and activities. And that somehow the mind is involved with the brain.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 22, 2009 - 12:21am PT
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The primary organ with which we connect to a mystical or spiritual state is the brain ...
No it's in the heart, the seat of the soul.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 22, 2009 - 12:25am PT
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You shouldn't take that dream analogy too literally Ed, nor make too many assumptions about "internal" and "external"
Saying we can't prove the world is a dream is saying that ultimately, our consciousness is our only connection with anything. In a dream, we have it internally but it's VERY common to shift your perspective in a dream to the first person and even to forget you are dreaming. Just take the analogy a bit further and imagine this whole shooting match is taking place within the conceptual consciousness shared between God and all of us.
In a dream, it seems we make up all kinds of characters who seem totally independent, some even wish us ill!
What is matter anyway? Even science concedes the whole earth could compress to softball size in a black hole. The world is not as we see it.
You can't prove the world is not like a dream by nitpicking dreams, anymore than you can prove everything has electromagnetic properties by nitpicking lightening.
The mystical states come when the thinking calms to quiet, not as a result of frenzied wishful thinking. The disturbed and distracted mind is actually the obstacle to mysticism and if people would just get out of the loop in their own heads, they would naturally have a peaceful serenity that would regularly flash on the mystical
Peace
Karl
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Dec 22, 2009 - 12:37am PT
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No it's in the heart, the seat of the soul.
In the AV node, the Purkinge fibers, the mitral valve, the epicardium, left coronary artery? How does that work?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 22, 2009 - 12:43am PT
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Love your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 22, 2009 - 12:53am PT
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I should note that we all have some kind of relationship with "intuition."
This would be considered by mystics to be a spiritual sense but then, it's taken for granted by many of us despite the semi-conscious way we use it anyway.
Of course, it's obvious how our preconceptions, desires and so forth can sully what intuition offers, but it's worth noting that religious faith without some kind of intuitive experience illuminating it is purely blind faith. If you have no inner spiritual feedback, you are just being a spiritual lawyer.
But we all navigate by intuition far more than we're aware of.
Just like we can feel the energetic field "Presence" of another. We know their vibes. This intuition is stronger in some than others and it's often overlooked since our brains combine it with our sense impressions of a persons demeanor, tone, and actions. If you remain objective and observe it, you start to separate the intuitive element out.
Peace
Karl
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MH2
climber
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Dec 22, 2009 - 01:07am PT
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The third big question that religion attempts to answer is what happens after we die.
Thanks. I forgot that one.
I think both of your cases however, are covered by existing law and ethics.
So in order to know what you ought to do, do you need anything more than existing law and ethics? And they are not connected to religious belief or spiritual insight?
Now here's a case I encountered as a teenager working in a county nursing home. A bed ridden woman in her 80's prayed loudly from morning to night that she die that day. The only time she was quiet was when we fed her liquids.
Money being a factor, we accomplished this by holding her nose so she had to open her mouth to breathe (automatic reflex) and then sticking the long spout of a teapot into her mouth and pouring so she was forced to swallow it or choke. If she didn't want to eat, and wanted to die after a long life, should we have let her?
Personally, I came to the conclusion at the age of 16, that there are fates worse than death and we have the fundamental human right to make our own decisions in that regard.
Was the woman's decision-making capacity compromised? Maybe by dementia? Maybe by a urinary tract infection? Etc.
In order to make a good decision you need all the facts you can get ahold of. Then you run those facts through the mill of values that you and your society hold.
One of those values is the right of an individual to make decisions for themselves. Another value, at least in the medical field, is to do no harm. By giving in to someone's wishes and withholding food or other treatment you could be violating that very important principle.
Another of the real cases we were asked to consider was a terminally ill woman with multiple organ failure and terrible pain. Her judgment was thought to be sound, or as sound as it could be under the circumstances. She asked to be taken off the ventilator. Some in the class were perfectly ready to do it but our MD lab supervisor pointed out that if you did that you would be marched straight off to jail.
Generalizations about being good and doing good can help, but in order for them to do so they need to be tied back into real events. It is fine to say that God loves us, that religion accomplishes a lot of good, or that mystical or spiritual experiences connect one to a different reality, but if they don't tie back to this world, how are they more than a pleasant curiosity?
In the other 2 cases I described above it isn't quite true that law and ethics handle them, because people differ on what the right answers are. Either of those cases could go either way. Some would give the old bugger the ice cream while others would not. Some would go to resuscitate the healthy father while others would stick with the institutionalized dim bulb. No one would go to jail for either decision in either case.
But there are ways to sort out what is best to do. They take an effort to understand but at least they buy you something worth the effort. If something beyond our world can help, bring it on. Otherwise it seems that religion and mysticism are fine for personal solace but not much real help beyond that important but limited realm.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 22, 2009 - 01:09am PT
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Love your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength
I don't have anything against that Gobee but tell me.
How do you go about choosing how much and fully to Love? How do you direct this Love at God?
If you find your heart dry, how do you open it?
Peace
Karl
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 22, 2009 - 01:32am PT
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Mh2
There are no easy answers in these situations for sure.
I felt that the woman I dealt with was mentally competent, others could disagree.
Meanwhile, how I think that meditation and mysticism can help is in making people more aware of the moral implications of their judgements, more compassionate. What might be the most logical decision may not be the most humanitarian one. I think most individuals who have a spiritual practice look more closely at such decisions than they would have before.
I think we also have to be aware of hidden motivations. In saying "do no harm" are we sure that saying always comes from humanitarianism or also from the desire not to be sued? Or is it just a mantra repeated over and over like some religious formula?
In deciding to preserve and prolong life as long as possible, would the medical staff make different decisions if they truly believed in an after life that was better than the present suffering? Or would they preserve it longer as God's mysterious will?
And then there is the bigger picture that nobody in our society has the courage to face. Does it make sense to spend 50% of all medical money and effort on elderly people in their last two years of life? For those of us who work in the Third world and know what the same money could do for children there, the answer has to be no.
Bottom Line: We should all have our wishes in these matters in writing on legal documents long before we think we will need them. It is only compassionate to spare our loved ones and the medical staff the agony of taking those responsibilities onto themselves. Religious or non religious we can all do that much.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 22, 2009 - 01:34am PT
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I don't know Karl
Maybe Gobee is fully surrendered onto jesus Christ and just loves him unconditionally and doesn't really need all this psycho babel.
Just like mom loves her child and the child loves mom.
Tell them all this stuff about the Universe, science, DNA, math, brain this and that they just smile and love you anyway.
He's a sweet guy, that gobee no matter what does here.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 22, 2009 - 01:41am PT
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I guess my question is: why do thought, perception, consciousness, awareness, etc. take such a center stage when discussing mystical, spiritual and religious activities?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 22, 2009 - 01:47am PT
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In order to write the post you just made you just went thru ....
thought, perception, consciousness, awareness
That's the symptom of the real you, your soul.
Point to yourself and say "I"
We don't point to our head when we say "I" or "Me"
We point to the heart (the seat of the soul our true real self), chest area.
When we fuk up we point to our head, (brain, mind) .....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 22, 2009 - 02:06am PT
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Werner wrote
I don't know Karl
Maybe Gobee is fully surrendered onto jesus Christ and just loves him unconditionally and doesn't really need all this psycho babel.
I wasn't making any statement or judgement in my question. I didn't want to assume that we felt differently or alike. Just wondering how to do what he recommends.
Ed writes
"I guess my question is: why do thought, perception, consciousness, awareness, etc. take such a center stage when discussing mystical, spiritual and religious activities?
Is that really your question? You'd be welcome to just make a statement. Using the word "Activities" is almost cheating. Are you really saying
"..why do thought, perception, consciousness, awareness, etc. take such a center stage when discussing mystical, spiritual and religious perceptions and awareness?"
To which the answer would be....Duh!
Thought, perception, consciousness, and awareness are the whole of our experience no? Important stuff..
and science doesn't have instruments fine enough at this stage to make significant differences in our religious or spiritual path. Someday we might have EGG and life force energy apps for our Iphone v64.5. We'd be able to biofeedback ourselves into a state of maximum lucidity and perceptiveness and we could compare numbers. Just a matter of time really
The Spiritual level is not hiding from us, it's just on a higher frequency that we aren't very open to.
Peace
Karl
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 22, 2009 - 04:59am PT
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Well you and Jesus could always visit the synagogue together. As for the difference between Christ and Christianity, we've already discussed that a few time on here.You're right in the mainstream with that one.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 22, 2009 - 05:15am PT
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Rox writes
Its no wonder I can't quite bring myself to post up about my brief visit from Jesus. Who'd want to put themselves through all this?
Dude, your neck is already out there on the 9-11 threads. At least posting on Jesus might help somebody.
plus, you already put it out there so you're half nuts already.
Jesus did say not to cast pearls inappropriately but hey, we all bend the rules a little
Peace
Karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 22, 2009 - 05:22am PT
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No it's in the heart, the seat of the soul.
Werner, the absolutes just keep on coming - now you are an authority on where a soul resides. It absolutely couldn't be that the heart is the principle moving organ / engine / pump of the body such that primitive cultures gave it precedence over limp, gelatanous brain tissue.
Mysticism as some sort of 'perception' outside of our senses? Many would simply call that imagination and creative thought, given it doesn't otherwise sensorially manifest itself.
And, again, why is it so important that anything at all happen after the moment of death? What exactly is wrong with that simply being it - finito, done, perfectly complete in every sense of the word?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 22, 2009 - 12:20pm PT
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"If you find your heart dry, how do you open it?"
Sometimes the dry and waterless places in life help us to see our need for God, to see what is choss and what is gold and that we can depend on Him! God is able to bring water out of a rock, and a heart of stone!
Be exalted, O Lord, in your strength!
We will sing and praise your power.
Why Have You Forsaken Me?
To the choirmaster: according to The Doe of the Dawn. A Psalm of David.
Psalm 22, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer,
and by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are holy,
enthroned on the praises of Israel.
4 In you our fathers trusted;
they trusted, and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried and were rescued;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by mankind and despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they make mouths at me; they wag their heads;
8 ***“He trusts in the Lord; let him deliver him;
let him rescue him, for he delights in him***!"
9 Yet you are he who took me from the womb;
you made me trust you at my mother's breasts.
10 ***On you was I cast from my birth,
and from my mother's womb you have been my God***.
11 Be not far from me,
for trouble is near,
and there is none to help.
12 Many bulls encompass me;
strong bulls of Bashan surround me;
13 they open wide their mouths at me,
like a ravening and roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint;
my heart is like wax;
it is melted within my breast;
15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and *my tongue sticks to my jaws*;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 ***For dogs encompass me;
a company of evildoers encircles me;
they have pierced my hands and feet—
17 I can count all my bones—
they stare and gloat over me;
18 they divide my garments among them,
and for my clothing they cast lots***.
19 But you, O Lord, do not be far off!
O you my help, come quickly to my aid!
20 Deliver my soul from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dog!
21 Save me from the mouth of the lion!
You have rescued me from the horns of the wild oxen!
22 I will tell of your name to my brothers;
in the midst of the congregation I will praise you:
23 You who ear the Lord, praise him!
All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him,
and stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel!
24 ***For he has not despised or abhorred
the affliction of the afflicted,
and he has not hidden his face from him,
but has heard, when he cried to him***.
25 From you comes my praise in the great congregation;
my vows I will perform before those who fear him.
26 The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied;
those who seek him shall praise the Lord!
May your hearts live forever!
27 ***All the ends of the earth shall remember
and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
shall worship before you.
28 For kingship belongs to the Lord,
and he rules over the nations***.
29 All the prosperous of the earth eat and worship;
before him shall bow all who go down to the dust,
even the one who could not keep himself alive.
30 Posterity shall serve him;
it shall be told of the Lord to the coming generation;
31 they shall come and proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn,
that he has done it.
The Bronze Serpent
Numbers 21:4-9, From Mount Hor they set out by the way to the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom. And the people became impatient on the way. And the people spoke against God and against Moses, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we loathe this worthless food.” Then the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. And the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you. Pray to the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. And the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent and set it on a pole, and everyone who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole. And if a serpent bit anyone, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.
John 3:13-15, No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 22, 2009 - 12:34pm PT
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healyje -- It absolutely couldn't be ....
Another absolute from you now. So you are making authority statement also.
So which will be true and accurate?
The soul is atomic in size and can be perceived by perfect intelligence.
This atomic soul is floating in the five kinds of air [prana, apana, vyana, samana and udana], is situated within the heart, and spreads its influence all over the body of the embodied living entities. When the soul is purified from the contamination of the five kinds of material air, its spiritual influence is exhibited." (Mund. 3.1.9)
The hatha-yoga system is meant for controlling the five kinds of air encircling the pure soul by different kinds of sitting postures not for any material profit, but for liberation of the minute soul from the entanglement of the material atmosphere.
So the constitution of the atomic soul is admitted in all Vedic literature's, and it is also actually felt in the practical experience of any sane man.
The influence of the atomic soul can be spread all over a particular body.
According to the Mundaka Upanisad, this atomic soul is situated in the heart of every living entity, and because the measurement of the atomic soul is beyond the power of appreciation of the material scientists, some of them assert foolishly that there is no soul.
The individual atomic soul is definitely there in the heart along with the Supersoul, and thus all the energies of bodily movement are emanating from this part of the body.
The corpuscles which carry the oxygen from the lungs gather energy from the soul. When the soul passes away from this position, activity of the blood, generating fusion, ceases.
Medical science accepts the importance of the red corpuscles, but it cannot ascertain that the source of the energy is the soul. Medical science, however, does admit that the heart is the seat of all energies of the body.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 22, 2009 - 01:22pm PT
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The Crucifixion
Matthew 27:32-54, As they went out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name. They compelled this man to carry his cross. And when they came to a place called Golgotha (which means Place of a Skull), they offered him wine to drink, mixed with gall, but when he tasted it, he would not drink it. And when they had crucified him, *they divided his garments among them by casting lots*. Then they sat down and kept watch over him there. And over his head they put the charge against him, which read, “This is Jesus, the King of the Jews.” Then two robbers were crucified with him, one on the right and one on the left. And those who passed by derided him, wagging their heads and saying, “You who would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save yourself! If you are the Son of God, come down from the cross.” So also the chief priests, with the scribes and elders, mocked him, saying, “He saved others; he cannot save himself. He is the King of Israel; let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. *He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him*. For he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’” And the robbers who were crucified with him also reviled him in the same way.
The Death of Jesus
Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, *“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”* And some of the bystanders, hearing it, said, “This man is calling Elijah.” And one of them at once ran and took a sponge, filled it with sour wine, and put it on a reed and gave it to him to drink. But the others said, “Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to save him.” And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.
And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!”
The Death of Jesus
John 19:28-37, After this, Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, said (to fulfill the Scripture), *“I thirst.”* A jar full of sour wine stood there, so they put a sponge full of the sour wine on a hyssop branch and held it to his mouth. When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
Jesus' Side Is Pierced
Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away. So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water. He who saw it has borne witness—his testimony is true, and he knows that he is telling the truth—that you also may believe. For these things took place that the Scripture might be fulfilled: *“Not one of his bones will be broken.” And again another Scripture says, “They will look on him whom they have pierced.*”
*<((:-) Sorry cintune, better?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 22, 2009 - 01:41pm PT
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For those of you interested in brain research the New York Times has just posted this article on willing your brain (mystical or otherwise), to science.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/22/health/22brain.html?hpw
I have several times explained to my Tibetan friends that the American form of Tibetan sky burials where the dead are cut up and fed to birds as their last charity, is the act of organ donation.
Meanwhile I was interested to note that Einstein's brain was 15% larger in the parietal area. Interestingly, that's where charismatics' brains light up when they speak in tongues, and also the region thought to be responsible for out of body sensations. There's clearly much to be learned still.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 22, 2009 - 01:46pm PT
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Hey Gobee, if you'd resize your Christmas carols to 900 pixels wide you'd be doing us poor sinners a big favor.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 22, 2009 - 02:17pm PT
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I have a huge screen and can see EVERYTHING
One must transcend small screens .........
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 22, 2009 - 02:18pm PT
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Well, I already knew that.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 22, 2009 - 02:29pm PT
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Werner, I'm not making an absolute statement. I'm asking if it isn't possible, because brains do no mechanical movement while hearts beat (and stop beating at death), that in early cultures hearts were given ascendancy over the brain.
And given an afterlife bing a major component and motivator in most all religions, it would seem no one can stomach even the thought of just dying and that being a perfect and final completing act of life.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 22, 2009 - 02:32pm PT
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Do you see anywhere a perfect and final completing act of life in nature?
Life comes from life ....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 22, 2009 - 03:21pm PT
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Au contraire - life comes from death. And yes, I see death as perfectly completing a life; returning those resources back to into the system. You see that contribution in every death in nature.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 22, 2009 - 03:36pm PT
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The body is born at a certain date, and it will be finished at a certain date.
This is matter. Matter comes from life.
Defending the false understanding that life comes from matter, and basing this false scientific theory, under the spell of the materialistic and nihilistic myths which, masquerading as science, have so bewitched modern civilization is your only defense against, Life comes from life
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 22, 2009 - 03:53pm PT
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Circularly, life is only sustained by death. I'd say you are clearly frightened by the prospect, the potential, and the 'magic' inherent in ordinary dirt, "matter" and "material". I find it remarkable that humans can so totally disrespect the constituant elements and components of this planet, all the while fantasizing anthropomorphic and mystic bullshit because of their ego- and fear-based blindness won't allow them to acknowledge the power inherent in all that surrounds them. I'm guessing that since life returns to the earth, most folks are frightened of it and think it only capable of death - nothing could be further from the truth. "Matter" is life.
And quite the opposite, materialism is inherent in and propogated by any world view that values mysticism over the the world around us.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 22, 2009 - 03:57pm PT
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Circularly, life is only sustained by death. I'd say you are clearly frightened by the prospect, ....
Pure unaltered speculation and projection.
So why don't you produce life in the laboratory?
Matter is there. Chemicals are there. You mix them and produce a life.
Life is already there ......
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 22, 2009 - 04:02pm PT
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Why don't we reproduce photosynthesis? Because we don't yet understand enough to know how to do it. Given it's only a couple of hundred years since the very first concept of a 'cell' I'd say we're doing pretty well. As far as creating life, we have already. What we haven't done is synthesize life yet, because once again we don't know enough yet to do it. But then it's only been 50 years or so since sorting out the basics of RNA and DNA; so creating life in that timeframe is pretty frigging remarkable.
Pure unaltered speculation and projection
As is every word and concept you've written in this thread.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 22, 2009 - 04:13pm PT
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The dead body of father, the dead body of mother cannot produce.
Any man can understand. Very simple.
So they say in the future the dead body of the father and the dead mother will produce life when we gain knowledge ....
we haven't done is synthesize life yet
The "we" is the life, it's already there. Without the "we" nothing happen.
Lay all the materials on the table without the "we"
Lay all the parts to the automobile on the factory floor and they will not come together without the creator and the constructor, both are life.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 22, 2009 - 04:22pm PT
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Yes, the dead bodies of the mother and father produce all kinds of life. Again, so painfully and narrowly anthropomorphic in every perspective on life, the planet, and the universe. Some view 'life' as the collective pool of DNA on the planet with all currently living things as a collection of 'fruiting bodies' optimized for expressing life under the current planetary conditions.
Inherent in E = MC2, is both the energy and matter necessary to produce life. That we don't yet know the final gritty details of the initial synthesis is just a function of time.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 22, 2009 - 05:37pm PT
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Yes, the dead bodies of the mother and father produce all kinds of life.
Your logic is complete utter nonsense.
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MH2
climber
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Dec 22, 2009 - 05:55pm PT
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Rokjox,
The less you say about your meeting the more I incline to believe you.
Consider Dame Julian of Norwich. Her experience took place 1373:
begin quote
As a young woman, she had been troubled by doubts and conflicts which culminated in a severe illness at the age of thirty. When on the point of death, as it seemed, the image on the crucifix became the dying Christ in person. Blood flowed from his wounds as he answered her questions by means of sixteen sets of enigmatical pronouncements. The rest of her life was spent in trying to explain them to herself and everyone; for God had spoken to her merely as a representative of his creatures.
'Because of the shewing I am not good,' she wrote in her Revelations, 'but only if I love God the better.' Visions were nothing unless they led to understanding.
Her central feeling was that God was perfect love and charity. Though a masculine deity, his nature could be expressed in the phrase, 'our mother in all things'.
The understanding she attained was beyond reach of words. 'And for the ghostly sight,' she wrote in this connection, 'I have said somewhat, but I may never fully tell it.'
end quote
That comes from the book Memoirs of a Medieval Woman (The Life and Times of Margery Kempe), by Louise Collins. Margery Kempe was another woman, born around 1373, whose autobiography is the first written in English and unusual on several other counts.
Margery Kempe herself was prone to hysterical fits which she believed to be a gift from Christ. These were risky times to make any religious claim which the church might see as presumptive.
William Sawtre, a Roman Catholic priest, declared it better to worship good men than the cross, to give money to the poor rather than spend it on pilgrimage to Jerusalem, and above all he said that bread and wine did not turn into flesh and blood during communion. An act to allow the burning of heretics was introduced in Parliament in 1401. The Archbishop was angry enough that William was burnt nine days before the act became law.
Perhaps the most interesting thing is that Dame Julian had questions. What questions would a woman of the 14th century have?
And for what it's worth, I completely agree with Werner about Gobee. Whether or not the guy has 2 thoughts to rub together, he comes across as honest and good-hearted. I look behind all those strange posts to the person.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 22, 2009 - 06:02pm PT
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Your logic is complete utter nonsense.
I agree, if we're looking at it through your incredibly narrow and anthropomorphic perspective of life.
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MH2
climber
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Dec 22, 2009 - 06:24pm PT
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And that somehow the mind is involved with the brain.
Man, I sure hope so!
There is a huge problem connected with any analysis of awareness, consciousness, anything sometimes referred to as 'higher' brain function.
If we did have the perfect recording device, looking at every cell in the brain simultaneously, and we had that anatomical map from Jan's NYT article, to a level which gave us every connection from each cell to each other cell, what would we still be missing?
Among a few other things, we would still need to know all the sensory inputs to that system, and because the system went through a process of self-organization and learning, we would need to know it's history.
What we find ourselves faced with is a figure/ground problem: where does the surround end and the system begin? Usually to study a system you try to isolate it as well as you can. The human mind is in large part a map of the world around it and to a large degree a product of it. You end up trying to study everything. A thing like awareness or consciousness has no clear boundary in the sense that you could describe it satisfactorily with just what you find between the ears.
Far better to choose one of the many jobs the brain does and ask how it does that particular job.
For example: how does a solitary wasp find its way back to its hole? Insects can't afford to carry around a lot of weight and they solve pretty difficult problems without too many neurons. Plus, there is less objection to poking them with electrodes.
It does make you wonder if there is a Diving Bell and the Butterfly inverse out there somewhere. A person who can move and talk but has no peripheral sensation. Should make for one mean meditator?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 22, 2009 - 07:02pm PT
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Merry CHRISTmas to everyone in Supertopo's dugout;
Chris McNamara, RJ, Norton, "Ardi", Jaybro, nature, the kid, Jingy, apogee,weschrist, fattrad, navblk4, dirtbag, Tami, TwistedCrank, cintune, Dr. F., radical, bluering,
noshoesnoshirt, The Warbler, khanom, the Fet, micronut, HowweirdDean, GDavis, WBraun, Largo,
jfailing, Flanders!, eeyonkee, looking sketchy there..., GOclimb, Josh Nash, Lynne Leichtfuss, Jan,
WandaFuca, jstan, Patrick Sawyer, Bad Climber, bc, eKat, Captain...or Skully, Chaz, Karl Baba,
Studly, Rokjox, Chaz, Ed Hartouni, MH2, Klimmer, Pate, Piton Ron, pyrosis, Jim Brennan, tdk,
Jennie, The user formerly known as stzzo, philo, Ghost, midarockjock, Grant Meisenholder, rrider,
rockermike, survival, kent, monolith, atchafalaya, Mighty Hiker, corniss chopper, wack-N-dangle,
Peter Haan, WanderlustMD, Elcapinyoazz, donini, locker, Gene, skipt, paul roehl, Homer, Cragman, Brian Hench, stevep, rectorsquid, wildone, healyje, Mtnmun, dfrost7, BASE104,
'Pass the Pitons' Pete, donald perry, scarcollector, Norwegian, Lovegasoline, Terry, originalpmac,
bookworm, Rankin, Marc Sisko, roadman, dave goodwin, Skeptimistic, d-know, MisterE, Reilly,
Russ Walling, LEB, 4damages, Crimpergirl, t*r, Cosmiccragsman, 426, Bronwyn, Robb, yossarian,
fongschway, UncleDoug, nutjob, slayton, bmacd, GBrown, illusiondweller,
mark miller,
Cheers, Gobee
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MH2
climber
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Dec 22, 2009 - 07:08pm PT
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An honor to be with you, sir.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 22, 2009 - 08:20pm PT
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And for what it's worth, I completely agree with Werner about Gobee. Whether or not the guy has 2 thoughts to rub together, he comes across as honest and good-hearted. I look behind all those strange posts to the person.
I agree as well.
It's what we should be doing with each other as well. There's plenty of folks I lock horns with on Supertopo (Gobee is not one of them, but hello Bluering) who I enjoy and appreciate as people.
Peace
Karl
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 22, 2009 - 09:23pm PT
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About Gobee, I'll go further and say that when a person has a direct connection to something higher than normal human thought, it shines through regardless of their theological background.
All people of good will can make progress on the path. And people of all or no theologies can sense it. As Karl would say, we all have intuition. As Werner would say, it's the heart that's most important.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Dec 22, 2009 - 10:44pm PT
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Thanks Gobee; Cheers to you and to all supertopoers out there in virtual campfire land.
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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Dec 23, 2009 - 10:44am PT
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Gobee - Hey, uhm... not a creationist.... But... proud company I've been placed with...
Merry Christmase (sp?) LOOL
dab
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2009 - 01:32pm PT
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Bump
For sophism, straw-man tactics, evasion, poor logic, unscientific proccess, etc etc against "Life comes from life"
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 23, 2009 - 01:53pm PT
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Bump
For a lack of respect for the potential and power of planetary processes which spawn life throughout the universe.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2009 - 02:08pm PT
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For a lack of respect
Speculation, projectionism, and evasion again.
Potential -- possible, as opposed to actual .....
We're not debating respect or no respect; But "Life comes from life"
Against "life comes from death"
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Dec 23, 2009 - 02:10pm PT
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Not "life comes from death", but "life comes from non-living matter".
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2009 - 02:13pm PT
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Life comes from non living matter
If it's non living then where come life?
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Dec 23, 2009 - 02:17pm PT
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When chemicals gain the ability to self-replicate and then to evolve into new forms, we have life.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2009 - 02:21pm PT
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Then put 2 independent chemicals on laboratory table.
They will not do anything until mixed together by the scientist or nature (which can animate to mix them together) which is life.
By themselves sitting there in 2 beakers nothing will happen until mixed.
I have no quarrel with the chemists if they begin from life, but unfortunately they say that everything begins from dead matter.
Even dead matter is caused to move by the cooperation of living energy.
Dead matter has no moving power, and therefore it cannot act independently.
So .. dead matter has no value.
So it is valuable so long we utilize it in different purposes. Otherwise, it has no value.
A nice automobile with nice machine has value so long it is driven by a living entity. Otherwise, who cares for it? Nobody cares for it.
Therefore matter, however valuable it may be, it is inferior to the spirit.
The machine is manipulated and manufactured by life, not that automatically the materials becomes a machine.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 23, 2009 - 02:45pm PT
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Nature mixes just fine, and by definition provides all the necessary energy and matter for life. Again, man now constructs and creates life from web-ordered chemicals on a regular basis, but just can't synthesize it yet.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 23, 2009 - 02:47pm PT
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Dead matter has no moving power, and therefore it cannot act independently.
Planetary processes are not static.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2009 - 02:50pm PT
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Again, man now constructs and creates life
Yes MAN the "living energy".
Not that the from web-ordered chemicals independently constructs and creates by themselves.
How the material force is working cannot be explained just on the basis of chemical reaction.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 23, 2009 - 03:16pm PT
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Yes, we are still learning how the initial synthesis sequence works, but there is lots of progress on that front as well relative to RNA precursors.
At one time no one even thought to bother climbing any part of El Cap - walked right by it they did. How many decades passed from the time men first climbed rocks as an activity unto itself before the Nose was done? It is no different - just another journey of discovery and learning. We've only known RNA/DNA chemistry for 52 years.
And how interesting that 1957 was the seminal year for both DNA and the Nose. But in 1956 you probably would have been one of those people saying we'll never figure out how heridity works or climb the Nose.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2009 - 03:25pm PT
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So
Nature mixes just fine, and by definition provides all the necessary energy and matter for life.
Energy and matter are 2. The energy animates matter.
Just as the operator and the machine. The machine (matter) will not animate/run without the operator (living force) first turning it on or creating the machine.
Not that we have this type of statement from Brian: Life comes from non living matter
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MH2
climber
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Dec 23, 2009 - 03:34pm PT
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In the spirit of giving, or at least re-gifting (these opinions are not my own).
Basic to the scientific method is the fundamental axiom that our physical universe is a rational, ordered one in which cause and effect are inevitably linked and where events fit together in logical patterns. It is an axiom since it is a self-evident truth that cannot be directly proved by any means that we know. At that, we must not forget that this, like many other ideas once considered axiomatic, may at some future time be disproved by some yet undiscovered fact revealed by a yet undevised method of reasoning.
How Did You Think of That?
An Introduction to the Scientific Method
David H. Killeffer
In 1932 Niels Bohr gave a lecture titled "Light and Life," in which he spoke of philosophical implications for the life sciences of the changes that quantum theory had brought to physics. He felt that there is a fundamental problem defining phenomena independent of the subjective means we use to observe them. Five years later he gave another talk, "Biology and Atomic Physics," in which he compared this problem to the world view taught by Buddha and Lao Tzu, who long before him had addressed the epistemological difficulties arising from our being both observers and actors. In this lecture Bohr speculated that we may need to discover still missing fundamental approaches to the analysis of natural phenomena before we can understand life in physical terms.
from the introduction to Max Delbrück's Mind from Matter?
by Gunther Stent
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 23, 2009 - 03:36pm PT
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Planetary processes require no operator. Are the gods shuffling the continents around? Are they down on the equator putting their anthropomorphized backs into spinning the planet?
we may need to discover still missing fundamental approaches to the analysis of natural phenomena before we can understand life in physical term
Absolutely, and we've been developing new fundamental approaches to analysis at a rapid rate. In 1932 we knew a lot about 'atoms' and nothing about 'genomes'; we have since mapped the human and many other species' genomes and we've only been able to do that kind of analysis for 33 years.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2009 - 03:48pm PT
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Planetary processes require no operator.
Again speculation and projectionism.
Living energy moves matter.
Thus the living energy is the operator.
There are two schools to the operator
1) The operator is ultimately impersonal.
2) The operator is personal (ultimately a person > GOD)
Your statement "Planetary processes require no operator." would kind of fall under impersonal.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 23, 2009 - 04:03pm PT
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Just the concept of an 'impersonal operator' - aside from being twisted logic, incredibly speculative, and projectionally anthropomorphic - is an oxymoron. The universe needs no operator, impersonal or otherwise. 'We' are in no way necessary.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2009 - 04:11pm PT
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I never mention any "WE" humans are necessary to ultimately operate the universe.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 23, 2009 - 04:26pm PT
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The projection of an 'operator', impersonal or otherwise, is still a necessary (and seemingly almost desperate) projection of the 'us' implicit in 'we'.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2009 - 04:55pm PT
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Never mentioned any "us" either.
You're the one projecting.
You are becoming very desperate now.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 23, 2009 - 04:58pm PT
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I dunno, you're the one projecting a "Living energy" operator. "living energy" - and that doesn't sound anthropomorphically needy, if not completely desperate?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2009 - 05:05pm PT
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I dunno,
You said it, you don't know, yet still you try and insist to put your speculative ideas onto and project/attribute them onto me.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 23, 2009 - 05:07pm PT
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Thus the living energy is the operator
Does that look like projection of mine to you? It looks like some guy in Cali speculating on a keyboard to me.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2009 - 05:18pm PT
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YOU DON'T KNOW
And you confirmed that.
And you confirmed that you're now guessing using the question mark.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 23, 2009 - 05:32pm PT
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AND YOU DO?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2009 - 05:41pm PT
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I never ever claimed "I" myself knows.
I've only paralleled and dovetailed the Veda, added nor subtracted from it, which you entirely reject.
There's absolutely nothing wrong to reject it on your part, and that was not the ultimate scope of my debate.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 23, 2009 - 05:47pm PT
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Oh, I don't reject the wisdom contained in the vedas or any other scripture. What I reject is the fear they also contain and explicitly reject all notions of scripture-based authority.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 23, 2009 - 05:51pm PT
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"How do you go about choosing how much and fully to Love? How do you direct this Love at God?"
That's a great question! What came first the chicken or the egg?
God chose us first, but we have to choose Him also!
Revelation 3:20, Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.
Matthew 7:7-8 Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened
Spiritual Blessings in Christ
Ephesians 1:314, Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Hebrews 11:6, And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
John 14:21, Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”
Matthew 15:8-9, “‘This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”
God Is Love
1 John 4:7-21, Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.
By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. We love because he first loved us. If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.
*
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2009 - 06:06pm PT
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"I don't reject the wisdom" ... and "explicitly reject all notions of scripture-based authority".
So wisdom is only relative to you.
And truth is only relative to you.
What's true today will be false in the future and then one day become true again and so on.
In the Veda it says 2 + 2 = 4 so you reject that authority ("explicitly reject all notions of scripture-based authority")
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 23, 2009 - 07:39pm PT
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I think we've already shown there's little to be gained going down the "who's authority" / "supreme authority" rabbit hole. Though I'd consider such an authority if all the world's relegions sat down and came up with a single, authoritative scripture and interpretation of it.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2009 - 10:10pm PT
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Hey Joe
Thanks for playing this thread today.
You were great ......
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 23, 2009 - 10:22pm PT
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Hey Joe
Where you goin' with that gun in your hand?
Settle down Prabhupada.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 23, 2009 - 11:02pm PT
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no, I don't think you reject all authority, I think you certainly question authority... (now Werner's going to point out that that is a "authoritative statement", he likes to spiral around with these paradoxes to show that they don't make any sense).
Testing the authoritative statements can be done... and where it cannot be done the statements have little to add to the discussion. Karl says we all sense the mystical, even if we don't know what we are sensing or we deny it. But actually, Karl doesn't know that, he is inferring it from his own experience, and interpreting what others say in a way that supports his conjecture. It is very possible that different people perceive things differently, and have a quite diverse experience of consciousness. One that might exclude Karl's own personal experience.
Werner, too, has studied and worked at understanding through his own experiences, but though he can explain what he senses, perceives, etc, there is no real way of knowing if someone else actually has the same experience. It is possible that they do not, and actually cannot.
As both Karl and Werner point out, these things may transcend an explanation in our normal manner of description. It is also possible that this inability to explain renders the thing being explained entirely a creation of each person experiencing it.
Now one can further speculate that the personal experience is tapping into a larger reality, but there is really nothing that is provable or disprovable about it. The construction of the reality which contains this realm outside of the physical universe guarantees that no such proof, one way or the other exists.
So on what authority do we accept the possibility of such a reality? Karl would say we open our heart and calm our minds... and maybe Werner would agree... but that is the authority of our own feelings, our intuitions, our experience. And while we do use these things to provide some authority, we also know that these things can misleading.
Such a construction may be simply a mental construction with now more complexity than the complexity that gives rise to our consciousness, our thoughts.
One cannot prove or disprove that statement with regard to such discussions.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 24, 2009 - 12:22am PT
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Ed writes
Karl says we all sense the mystical, even if we don't know what we are sensing or we deny it. But actually, Karl doesn't know that, he is inferring it from his own experience, and interpreting what others say in a way that supports his conjecture. It is very possible that different people perceive things differently, and have a quite diverse experience of consciousness. One that might exclude Karl's own personal experience .
I agree and disagree. (Mostly disagree) Let's say we lived in a prescientific society but some "Mystics" had looked within and noticed the physical heart beating and noticed how it was faster during excitement and exertion. They could claim an experience of the physical heart and also claim from their knowledge that other people were having experiences of the physical heart whether they knew of it's existence of not. The "spiritual" as the source of the very illumination of our awareness, is inescapable and part and parcel of everyone's experience. As the eternal subject, it's not the object of perception and so folks take it for granted but you can't be without it for a waking moment.
I only "agree" because there is some sense that we have no absolute proof that others actually exist (we could all be the complicated dream of the Highest Being) but that's a little trippy for us to have to deal with here, so I'll stand by my assertion that we all have levels of intuition and awareness of our Soul Level.
Ed writes
"
So on what authority do we accept the possibility of such a reality? Karl would say we open our heart and calm our minds... and maybe Werner would agree... but that is the authority of our own feelings, our intuitions, our experience. And while we do use these things to provide some authority, we also know that these things can misleading."
Actually, sure, we DO know these things can be misleading, but what happens when you clean out your emotional crap and calm your mind isn't so different than the progression of skills when you learn to climb. The more you learn, the more you "get it" and you can put that knowledge into action to the degree you have it. One thing leads to another and the results reinforce what you are doing and you get to higher and higher levels. Just like climbing, it's possible to think you are "better" than you are and you might take a whipper or get spanked.
With the experiential/mystical route to exploring Spirituality, the results don't have to wait until death and would be worth it even in a nihilistic reality. It's a fortuitous thing that at some point, it's possible to have some experiences that make it clear a higher power is always present everywhere.
Yes, it's possible to misinterpret, exaggerate and get deluded. It's possible to get hurt or killed climbing as well. It's the predilection of our human existence to explore WTF is about us, both scientifically and spiritually and there are pitfalls to both.
Thing is, if you look to clear up your heart and calm your mind with sincerity, and you get it a little wrong, it's still better than leaving the mess in chaos. If somehow it turned out to be a bust and we all become worm manure, nothing is lost eh?
PEace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 24, 2009 - 12:26am PT
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"How do you go about choosing how much and fully to Love? How do you direct this Love at God"
Gobee writes
That's a great question! What came first the chicken or the egg?
God chose us first, but we have to choose Him also!
Revelation 3:20, Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.
Matthew 7:7-8 Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened...
Nice answer. That's my experience. Our intentions navigate our experience of the world. We can choose to close things off or open to them.
I used to feel sort of dry-hearted. I prayed for an open heart and, after some time, I became a real sap.
I love being a sap. Love is the sauce that makes everything taste great.
PEace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 24, 2009 - 12:35am PT
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I donno I'm a stone with no real home.
My heart is cold stone.
I live in a stone prison.
I'm dead stone matter.
Bullwinkle put me in a stone book.
Life's all stoned up.
Until I started the car .......
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 24, 2009 - 12:46am PT
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I am less and less sure that that how and what goes on in my mind, and in my consciousness, is universal.... although we communicate in a universal manner, largely through language. When we share a language, we have a good chance of communicating, but there is room for confusion even in that instance.
If the authority is based on a shared experience of "spiritual" we may actually not be experiencing the same thing. How do we know?
You are also jumping to conclusion that I don't think this is important even if it is and individual construction. These ideas, as I have said before, can be so compelling as to motivate us to act on them, giving them reality in this physical realm.
Our empathy for other people, for the world around us, can be a strong director of behavior even if there is not risk of retribution from an absolute authority. "Do unto others as you would have done onto yourself" is good advice independent of what book it's written in, in what ever language... I think that understanding how consciousness works in detail (e.g. the answer to the question what exact thought am I having [i[right now?) may be beyond a mechanistic explanation, ever, but certainly plenty of opportunity to explore without needing to ascribe it to some outside forces... except where those forces may be ideas, passed around ideas from the ancients, from other cultures, from visionaries...
I agree that the action is probably more important than the actual construction, because in the end, whatever way it breaks, it is the end of this particular stage... and contrary to your previous post, whether or not you believe that there are any other stages, life is special and should be for living. So an atheist can rock climb even if it would risk the only chance they would have at life, I don't see any contradiction there... we all die at some point.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 24, 2009 - 12:52am PT
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Werner, maybe a carbonaceous stone... so your car burns carbonaceous fuel, the same that you eat... carbonicious no doubt!
I think your explanation shows a lot of imagination... the one where everything is "just matter" shows imagination too... it doesn't start out to try to explain everything, it just starts out trying to explain "little things" but as those little things build up, more and more is explained.
The motivation of responding to curiosity is not hubris.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 24, 2009 - 01:19am PT
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Ed writes
I am less and less sure that that how and what goes on in my mind, and in my consciousness, is universal.... although we communicate in a universal manner, largely through language. When we share a language, we have a good chance of communicating, but there is room for confusion even in that instance.
Let me first say that even though there is a source of awareness that in universal, that it manifests in humans in vastly different ways. We all have our own levels of conditioning, and "evolution." We can be sheep. It's possible to turn an ordinary person into a Nazi and Hitler did so. Still, just as every human has a physical heart, no exceptions, every human has a Spirit which is the ultimate subject of the contents of their minds. The experience of that could be vastly different depending on the qualities of that mind and the density of the manifestation of consciousness in the guy in a meat suit. I'd be the last to say we all experience things the same, it just that the experiencer, however obscured and unnoticed, is the essence of Life itself.
Think of consciousness like water. It can be clean or dirty, frozen, liquid or gas, and things can be juicy or dry.
Peace
Karl
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 24, 2009 - 01:23am PT
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"there is a source of awareness that in universal," ?
Don't assume that is a given, without further elaboration. My milege has varied.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 24, 2009 - 01:25am PT
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Hitler did so
Yes, they say there's no God.
So then they get a Hitler imitation God.
They became his sheep and made little Nazis.
So you see God and sheep can never be eliminated.
Both are always there.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 24, 2009 - 01:27am PT
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Werner, I think you've exceeded your quota of generalization...
..wtf?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 24, 2009 - 01:28am PT
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hahaha
But Ed someday you'll remember this .....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 24, 2009 - 01:53am PT
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"there is a source of awareness that in universal," ?
Jaybro wrote
Don't assume that is a given, without further elaboration. My milege has varied.
You assume that it is based on an assumption. Just as many aspects of our physical physiology are universal among humans, there can only be one source of awareness. All lightning is electricity, you can't get around that.
Varied mileage is still mileage.
Peace
Karl
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 24, 2009 - 01:55am PT
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Karl, you assume a lot! I don't discount experience, just the interpretation of a posibilly shared, or at least similar, event...
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 24, 2009 - 01:56am PT
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Very good Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 24, 2009 - 02:23am PT
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Jaybro
Karl, you assume a lot! I don't discount experience, just the interpretation of a posibilly shared, or at least similar, event...
I'm getting the impression we are talking about different things. No matter. This thread is full of things that are tough to align with what others are thinking about
peace
Karl
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 24, 2009 - 03:56am PT
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I'd like to go back to an idea I introduced about 4,000 posts ago and that is the view from Hinduism and Buddhism, that there are four major paths to the same place, and that we make more spiritual progress if we use the path that suits our personality. These paths will work for an atheist too and have been widely picked up by psychologists and even management theory.
Left Brain:
Knowledge
Selfless Action
Right Brain:
Love and Devotion
Inner Psychic exploration
Clearly Ed has chosen knowledge as his primary path and Karl and I deal with psychic exploration. In fact, most of us have a major and a subsidiary mode and we can rank all four in the order in which we have developed ourselves. The least developed aspect of ourselves is sometimes called our shadow side.
Most people lean toward either right or left brain and are unbalanced that way. Intuitively we know it. That's why we usually marry a person who is the opposite of us. In discussions such as this, it's the opposites who dance around each other (Ed and Karl for example) , not those who are similar.
Now I can say that I will never view the world through mathematical formulas, but I don't deny that it can be done. It's just that when I explore the knowledge realm, it's not by that method. Likewise, it seems pretty clear that Ed is not going to be a mystic, though it seems that he now agrees that world exists and might even be valuable?
Trying to understand the opposite of our personality is not easy. I struggle with people who think in absolutes whether through science (there is no God) or fundamentalism (there is a God and everything about Him is in one book) and of course people like me drive the left brain types crazy with non replicable feelings and intuitions.
Maybe the Taoists captured it best with the symbol of the yin and yang meshed together making the complete unified Tao?
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 24, 2009 - 04:30am PT
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"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing (vain)." 1 Cor 13:1-2
VAIN, a. [L. vanus; Eng. wan, wane, want.]
1. Empty; worthless; having no substance, value or importance.
The Gift of Christmas
"And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men." Luke 2:10-14 (KJV)
Merry Christmas Everyone!!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 24, 2009 - 12:54pm PT
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It would depend on your definition of existence.
The mind and the way it works exists, and I don't have any doubt that it can be explained scientifically without resorting to any supernatural, mystical, spiritual realm. However, those places exist in our thoughts, and they may have a sense of universality because of the common inheritance, and common function. I don't think that this is unique to humans, either... though it may be a very elaborate manifestation in humans.
That thought can be a motivator of action isn't surprising either, since that is what it's all about, that's why it's there in the first place. So acting on an idea that has no physical basis certainly happens. And acting on commonly held thoughts also happens. Thoughts have power through animating our behavior.
When John Nash, the subject of the wonderful biography by Sylvia Nasar, A Beautiful Mind (read this book!) was asked how he could have succumbed to paranoid schizophrenia episodes and have wonderful mathematical insights, he replied "they both came from the same place."
The study of these mystical, spiritual, religious topics to me are all about understanding that internal sense of reality, in a trite way I'd say it was about understanding the programming of the mind... which is not trivial, and not unimportant even though it may not be real in a physical sense.
In that way these two vast universes are reconciled.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 24, 2009 - 01:07pm PT
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But you forgot all about the soul.
This is the key missing understanding of modern science.
The soul not the mind or brain is the actual source and intelligence of all living beings and what animates matter.
Jagadish Chandra Bose made an instrument to measure the response of plants.
When he approached the plant with intent to cut or harm it the meter immediately started to respond without ever coming in contact with it.
When he approached the plant with intent only to water it and nourish it the meter did not react violently.
This all was done without any physical contact with the plant and the plant reacted according to the degree Bose had in his mind as to what he wanted to do to the plant as he came within close proximity to it.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 24, 2009 - 01:15pm PT
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no, I don't forget the soul, but what is described as soul I think I see as the empathy of sentience
and sentience is a result of our awareness, which includes our consciousness.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 24, 2009 - 01:41pm PT
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Thanks Ed for very nice clarification.
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MH2
climber
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Dec 24, 2009 - 04:45pm PT
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It is very possible that different people perceive things differently, and have a quite diverse experience of consciousness.
People demonstrably perceive things differently. But how important is that? Is it any more important than skin color? Which of course has been and can be considered extremely important in certain times and places. But I think we have made some progress in figuring out that people who look different are more similar than our ancestors took them for.
My guess would be that people's perceptions and experience of consciousness are also quite similar, but for such a statement it is hard to agree on a valid test. How different is a frog from a human? To us, quite a lot different. To a hypothetical ET, maybe barely perceptibly different.
some excerpts from Mind from Matter?
"We traced the cognitive roots of physics to our intuitive capacity for measurement.
Since I have mentioned the word intuition rather freely in this essay, I should say a few words about what I mean by it. There is a vast philosophical literature concerning this particular word, which suggests that its meaning is vague enough to cover a multitude of sins. I have been using intuition to refer to any easily accomplished concrete mental operation. Examples of such mental operations are the reconstruction of three-dimensional objects from two-dimensional perspective projections and the "seeing" of the equivalence of two sets whose members can be paired, and then, from memory, visualizing the cardinal number 7 as a set of seven objects. It is somewhat arbitrary where one sets the boundary between intuition and logical inference.
...the theory of relativity, which demanded an abdication of our intuitive, a priori, or evolutionarily developed, space-time mode of perception. Here "abdication" does not mean discontinuing our intuitive mode of perception in everyday affairs, but merely admitting that we can account for the facts of physics by a scheme that ignores intuition and replaces it with a logically consistent, albeit counterintuitive, four-dimensional world. It is essential to realize, however, that to have standing as a physical theory, the theory of relativity must be connected in a well-defined manner to actual observations of the real world, stated in a language based on our ordinary intuition."
Max Delbrück
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 24, 2009 - 04:49pm PT
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God frowns and then laughs at this whole discussion.
I know people like Ed and others will continue to frown upon my beliefs, but we'll see...we'll see.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 24, 2009 - 04:54pm PT
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Don't anyone tell Klimmer that the three fabled wise men, aka Magi, were actually from Iraq, or maybe Iran. Parthia, that is. And they were heathens, too - probably Zoroastrians. But then, there's a lot of Zoroastrianism in christianism.
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MH2
climber
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Dec 24, 2009 - 05:19pm PT
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God frowns and then laughs at this whole discussion.
Welcome to ST, God. Why the frown? Good about the laughs.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 24, 2009 - 05:29pm PT
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I'm not frowning, I'm trying to understand...
...that can be difficult, and I am difficult and love a good argument... sometimes too much.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 24, 2009 - 08:25pm PT
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Jesus, Father, Spirit = 1
1+1+1 = God
You and me...
Yes Jesus loves me
The cow jumped over the moon
A tree is green, the sky is blue
With the eyes of a child, you can see
God is wonderful, wonderful, wonderful
God is love, love is God
All I need is God, God is all I need
Thank you for your love, your love for me
Jesus is Christmas, that My joy may be in you,
and that your joy may be full
All I am comes from the thy hand, the hand of thee
God loves you and me!
Gobee
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.1) By John MacArthur
http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
Merry Christmas *<((:-)
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 24, 2009 - 09:38pm PT
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Merry Christmas and a happy new year to everyone on this thread. I hope this next year brings everyone the peace and happiness they desire.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 24, 2009 - 11:29pm PT
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Here's a great example from another thread, of the mysteries of intuition vs. rational thought.
Girl is hiking in Arizona. Her beloved big white malamute dog is either lost or stolen. They spend two extra days in area hoping dog will return, but no luck. They finally begrudgingly leave the area to finish their 3 month road trip. A week later they are driving up the coast of California and she suddenly gets this urge to stop for a walk on the beach. While she's walking her dog comes galloping up and jumps on her. The people with the dog have some BS story and say its their dog but the affection belies their words. Kind of a few awkward moments then they leave, leaving the dog with its rightful owner. Mysterious things happen in this world.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1043618/Lost_gear_re-found_by_yourself
Whatever the explanation for happenings like this, I'm sure the one thing we can agree on, is how little we know about the workings of our minds or those of other sentient beings.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Dec 24, 2009 - 11:33pm PT
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how fun... Gobee is still posting the stuff that he brainwashes himself with and nobody reads.
almost 5K Norton. Good work.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 25, 2009 - 01:36am PT
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I'd define Intuition as knowledge which comes as a transmission, a download so to speak, from a part of the mind or soul that we aren't rationally conscious of. The rational conscious mind is the tip of the iceberg and it's tough to pin down where these higher insights and sensitivities come from, whether from a higher quality of mind or whether that higher mind is just tuned to an even greater inspiration of Spirit.
‘The only really valuable thing is intuition.’
— Albert Einstein
‘I believe in intuition and inspiration; at times I feel certain I am right while not knowing the reason.’
— Albert Einstein
‘The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honours the servant and has forgotten the gift.’
— Albert Einstein
‘The intellect has little to do on the road to discovery. There comes a leap in consciousness, call it intuition or what you will, and the solution comes to you and you don’t know how or why.’
— Albert Einstein
Peace
Karl
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 25, 2009 - 04:21am PT
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bc-
You may be right, particularly if such a thing only happens once in a lifetime. When a person has them happen several times a week, particularly when spending a lot of time in prayer or meditation, then something else is going on.
Once in a while though, even the skeptic meets a master, usually Indian or Tibetan, who shakes his or her world view by producing so many intuitions, successful predictions, and scientifically unexplainable phenomena on a daily basis, that one is forced to re-evaluate.
Fortunately I met such people when I had just finished grad school, so I was able to be deprogrammed from all that dry rationality and see intuition in its proper place again.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 25, 2009 - 11:28am PT
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producing so many intuitions, successful predictions, and scientifically unexplainable phenomena
Can you elaborate? Is there some literature or link I could access?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 25, 2009 - 11:47am PT
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Magic and Mystery in Tibet by Alexandra David-Neel is always a good start. It's also an adventure story as she was the first westerner to enter Lhasa at the turn of the century disguised as an old deaf mute Tibetan. She trekked from China to Lhasa and then south to Sikkim. It will probably seem so fantastical to you that you will think it's all made up yet many Tibetans and western travelers to Tibet have experienced such things. Autobiography of a Yogi by Paramhansa Yogananda is another good one by the first Hindu Yogi to live for an extended period of time in the West.
I myself have known a Sherpa priest who was able to predict how many tourists were approaching the valley when they were about three days a way and describe in detail how many males and females, what they would look like and what they would be wearing. Sure enough they would come walking up the trail two or three days later just like he said. This in a place where the nearest electricity was 8 days away, the nearest phone 9 days away and no one in the village had a transistor radio, and of course there was no mail service. It also happened when no one in the village went up or down the trail and so could not have talked with anyone else (the nearest village was a day away). People in my village just shrugged it off saying such things were just normal for meditators of any skill.
Another time he told the villagers that he had a dream in which the handprint, footprints, and head print of a famous holy man prostrating himself before the local mountain goddess were imprinted on a piece of rock but the rock was buried. He told the village boys where to dig and sure enough, 3 feet down they found a flat rock with the prints he described and brought it to the surface, recognizing it as one of many sacred monuments in a sacred valley.
And finally, one day he asked me for antibiotic cream to help with a cut he had. He had whacked his hand with a machete while cutting firewood and the cut was almost to the bone on the underside, somehow missing the artery. I put cream on it and pulled it shut with gauze and adhesive tape as best I could, thinking he needed stitches. The next day he held up both hands to show me that his hand was completely healed, not even a scar, and thanked me again for the cream. I was dumbstruck as I knew something else had just taken place. Personally I have always thought he did that to try to shake me out of my grad school rationality!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 25, 2009 - 12:45pm PT
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The melding of Buddhism and Bon shamanism certainly provided David-Neel and others with fodder for a lot of ornamentalist prose, and yet, despite these parlour tricks, it's proven pretty helpless against Muslim and Chinese hegemony. Which is a sad thing, to be sure.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 25, 2009 - 01:00pm PT
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I typed too much to bury my reply at the end of the page.
Merry Christmas!
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 25, 2009 - 01:00pm PT
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Jan writes
Girl is hiking in Arizona. Her beloved big white malamute dog is either lost or stolen. They spend two extra days in area hoping dog will return, but no luck. They finally begrudgingly leave the area to finish their 3 month road trip. A week later they are driving up the coast of California and she suddenly gets this urge to stop for a walk on the beach. While she's walking her dog comes galloping up and jumps on her.
then BC writes
We don't know why she stopped. She may have liked the view or needed to take a break from driving and it just happened that the people who stole her dog were basically on the same road trip as she was, hence the chance meeting on the beach. What are the odds? Probably better than you think. I've seen the same people repeatedly over the course of a road trip. I'd put this in the coincidence columm. People often go straight for the "woo-woo" answer when a more logical one is staring them in the face.
Let's see, the girl loses her Dog in Arizona and finds it via a random stop on a California Beach... You think the odds aren't bad? What IS that more Logical answer. You chalk up things to "coincidence" because you just choose to do so.
It's not just religious people who believe what they want to believe and stretch to have events fit their worldview.
Which has taught those of us who have repeatedly seen something like miracles to shut up. If a story really defies a rational explanation, others immediate jump to the "you must be nuts" conclusion. There is NO WAY somebody who chooses to ignore the interconnnected spiritual linkages in life will be brought around by ANYTHING, until they are ready to see what they have been resisting. There is NO STORY, even their own, that will sway a person who is not ready.
I have a relative who has had a couple plain and definitive experiences that were detailed and couldn't have been projected or wishful thinking. They chose to totally ignore the implications of that even as they'd tell the story once in awhile.
We make our own worldview the way we please it. If your worldview hasn't changed much over your lifetime, that's because you aren't open or paying attention. I'm not saying everyone should wake up and say "I believe" but almost nobody is born with deep knowledge. Even the scientific worldview is mind boggling and extremely unlikely to our perception and common sense and those who hold it are often paying much lip service to it like a neo-con pays lip service to Christianity.
What's the REAL religion of most people? -The unconscious assumptions that are conditioned in us by our senses and upbringing.- Break free of that, one way or another, because it makes you a sheep about far more than just believing in Religion or not.
PEace
Karl
edit: Opps, now Jan's crazy. Just when I enjoyed her posts so much!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 25, 2009 - 01:25pm PT
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True enough Karl, there clearly are more things in heaven and earth, but I've always been partial to this way of looking at it:
"Chains of more-than-coincidence occur so often in my life that, if I am forbidden to call them supernatural hauntings, let me call them a habit. Not that I like the word 'supernatural'; I find these happenings natural enough, though superlatively unscientific."
Robert Graves, The White Goddess
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 25, 2009 - 04:01pm PT
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Yosemite...
It's almost as if their was a Higher Power at work that basically said that looks really good right about there, and just put a little bit of grass right there, and just put Oak, and Oak woodland right through there, and that's it that's perfect! Because it doesn't seem that anything was haphazard, it seems like this was designed to overwhelmed and to leave people awestruck!
Shelton Johnson
Park Ranger, Yosemite National Park Service
ALMOST? Thank You Jesus!
John 1:3, All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
I Thank you that I was one of the lucky one's who got to climb on those granite walls!
HOW FIRM A FOUNDATION
By John Rippon, 1787
How firm a foundation, ye saints of the Lord,
Is laid for your faith in His excellent Word!
What more can He say than to you He hath said,
You, who unto Jesus for refuge have fled?
In every condition, in sickness, in health;
In poverty’s vale, or abounding in wealth;
At home and abroad, on the land, on the sea,
As thy days may demand, shall thy strength ever be.
Fear not, I am with thee, O be not dismayed,
For I am thy God and will still give thee aid;
I’ll strengthen and help thee, and cause thee to stand
Upheld by My righteous, omnipotent hand.
When through the deep waters I call thee to go,
The rivers of woe shall not thee overflow;
For I will be with thee, thy troubles to bless,
And sanctify to thee thy deepest distress.
When through fiery trials thy pathways shall lie,
My grace, all sufficient, shall be thy supply;
The flame shall not hurt thee; I only design
Thy dross to consume, and thy gold to refine.
Even down to old age all My people shall prove
My sovereign, eternal, unchangeable love;
And when hoary hairs shall their temples adorn,
Like lambs they shall still in My bosom be borne.
The soul that on Jesus has leaned for repose,
I will not, I will not desert to its foes;
That soul, though all hell should endeavor to shake,
I’ll never, no never, no never forsake.
[It] was the favorite of Deborah Jackson [sic; her name was actually Rachel] President Andrew Jackson’s beloved wife [he was President-elect at the time], and on his death-bed the warrior and statesman called for it. It was the favorite of Gen. Robert E. Lee, and was sung at his funeral. The American love and familiar preference for the remarkable hymn was never more strikingly illustrated than when on Christmas Eve, 1898, a whole corps of the United States Army Northern and Southern, encamped on the Quemados hills, near Havana [Cuba], took up the sacred tune and words.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 25, 2009 - 04:09pm PT
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Karl,
Let's see, the girl loses her Dog in Arizona and finds it via a random stop on a California Beach... You think the odds aren't bad? What IS that more Logical answer. You chalk up things to "coincidence" because you just choose to do so.
Yeah, they aren't that bad, they may be large but not out of the statistical realm of what can happen when millions of people are going about doing their millions of things.
Which has taught those of us who have repeatedly seen something like miracles to shut up.
I have never told anyone to shut up or that they're nuts. I was simply pointing out that much of what appears miraculous is really mundane in a world of 6+ billion people. When you stack up the numbers, really anything can happen. A multitude of ancedotal tales does not make a certainty. They may be super, but I think mostly natural, not necassarily supernatural.
I look past these stories because after a while they seem so commonplace. At least this one did to me. Sorry, but I don't look to the heavens at every story like this. Not that I don't think there isn't any mystery in the universe, I just don't think this is where it's at.
We make our own worldview the way we please it. If your worldview hasn't changed much over your lifetime, that's because you aren't open or paying attention. I'm not saying everyone should wake up and say "I believe" but almost nobody is born with deep knowledge. Even the scientific worldview is mind boggling and extremely unlikely to our perception and common sense and those who hold it are often paying much lip service to it like a neo-con pays lip service to Christianity.
What's the REAL religion of most people? -The unconscious assumptions that are conditioned in us by our senses and upbringing.- Break free of that, one way or another, because it makes you a sheep about far more than just believing in Religion or not.
You make a lot of assumptions about people, but then you obviously run much deeper than I do.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 25, 2009 - 05:11pm PT
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Karl, it is possible that the intuition that Einstein talks about is very different than how you understand it... physicists do appropriate a lot of words to means something different than their common meaning.
In this case, the intuition that Einstein talks about is the ability to follow a logical course of thought without having to stop and prove every step, to make the correct choices at points where choices have to be made, and reach the correct conclusions.
Almost always, when a physicist uses that word, it implies that the person that makes the intuitive leap does so because of their deep understanding of the physical phenomena, deep enough to be able to explain some different phenomena, which may be new and unfamiliar.
In this sense, it is not an attribute which comes from the "unknown," or some mystical process but one that comes from intense familiarity of how the universe works.
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MH2
climber
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Dec 25, 2009 - 09:49pm PT
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I always keep some emotional coin on the fantastic. That's because of having met about 104 people who have something different, possibly crazy, to say, but who otherwise seem as sane as me. The young Mike Warburton was one of the first. He did not seem at all embarrassed to talk about, for example, seeing people he knew who were far away at the time and having them talk to him, though that kind of thing didn't happen to him often and he didn't quite know what to make of it. I put a lot of faith in Karl partly because of his great story about the time he got benighted soloing and started thinking of all the people he loved. Not long ago I met a guy in the West Van sauna who turned out to have been born in the Dolpo region bordering Tibet and Nepal. He was a Buddhist monk. He said almost nothing and certainly nothing unusual but when he said, "I'll see you again," it had a distinctly different significance than usual, I thought, even though he didn't put any emphasis on it. And around 100 other instances.
However, even though many people have been curious about psychic powers and have looked for and tried to observe them in circumstances that would allow for collecting good evidence of them, it proves to be a frustrating quest. Like Sasquatch or Nessie these mysterious powers are shy around skeptics. Under bright lights they usually resolve into magic. Uri Geller type magic. Which was good enough for some.
But then again, there was that time John Muir sensed that his old geology prof from the U. of Wisconsin had arrived in Yosemite...
But even Martin Gardner, who is NOT an atheist, has pointed out that we have no way to measure the likelihood of coincidences in everyday life and that the ones we notice may have been preceded by a vast background of events as usual, that we don't perceive, because nothing crazy happened. Thankfully!
As Ed says, intuition can only take you somewhere if it comes out of understanding a larger coherent whole.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 26, 2009 - 12:36am PT
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Thousands of years ago a mans word was worth it's weight in gold.
Now-a-days a man with lots of gold can say anything he wants and it is taken as truth.
But if 100 ordinary people all saw the same thing and collaborate that truth it will be labeled as a conspiracy .......
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 26, 2009 - 02:34am PT
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Good one Gobee!
Thanks for a good Christmas laugh!
I will keep the dancing chimps as a link for my Physical Anthropology class!
I often joke with my students that they need to always keep in mind that our brain is about three times bigger than a chimp's and then to ask themselves, does the human race on any given day act three times smarter than a chimp?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 26, 2009 - 02:40am PT
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The melding of Buddhism and Bon shamanism certainly provided David-Neel and others with fodder for a lot of ornamentalist prose, and yet, despite these parlour tricks, it's proven pretty helpless against Muslim and Chinese hegemony. Which is a sad thing, to be sure.
The point of all those parlor tricks (I assume you are thinking of the ferryman story from the life of Buddha) was to evolve human consciousness and in some cases, to cope with remoteness of the Tibetan countryside. People were trained to be able to see at a distance because there was no communication. Likewise, people who could run 300 miles in a day while in trance were useful for the same reasons. Even the current Dalai Lama has stated however, that with modern media there is no reason to train people in those arts any more.
This Dalai Lama is the 14th, but in his 13th incarnation he tried to modernize the country and warned of the disastrous consequences in not doing so. Of course at every turn he was blocked by the monastic establishment who managed to put an end to the construction of such things as a modern hospital and telegraph system, the establishment of foreign embassies, and the modernization of the army.
Thus in every culture we are confronted with the paradox of people who understand the potential of the human mind more deeply than others (and perhaps have the potential to connect with other higher minds in the universe) and the religious establishment with it's conservatism. It is an ongoing challenge to keep them separate.
As for their psychic powers not being able to keep the Chinese out (the Muslims did retreat back where they came from), they were never meant to be used in that way. The Tibetans had prayed and done their rituals twice before and the Chinese had retreated from their country voluntarily twice before, so they had reason to think it would work again. Unfortunately nothing could have stopped the Chinese millions. We barely could hold the line against their human wave attacks in Korea with all of our technology.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 26, 2009 - 03:40am PT
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Yup, when your time has come for transformation, it's going to get you regardless of the wishes put forth in your prayers.
The Tibetans have had a disaster in their world but as a result, their own faith has been shared with the world and renewed in its essence while it's blind ritual and hierarchy has been reformed somewhat.
The path of evolution is not all about comfort, safety or getting your way. Best thing is to learn the lessons before life beats your doors down with them
peace
Karl
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 26, 2009 - 03:47am PT
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Indeed!
Many ordinary Tibetans even say that one of the reasons the whole thing happened was that they violated the Buddhist precept of sharing the dharma. Instead they were stingy with it, locking it up and keeping it to themselves until forced to share.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 26, 2009 - 04:09am PT
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Come on now you all...what are the chances that the Earth is placed EXACTLY the distance away from our sun to maintain life and say that it all happened after a "big bang"? One fraction of a measure further or closer to the sun and the Earth would freeze or burn up. What about all the other bodies in this universe? What happened to them? Do you think we'll ever find another "Earth"? I agree that it is our nature to be ever curious and yearning to learn as much as we can about everthing but look at this very world we live in today! It already is in perfect harmony and contains intricate mysteries that we CONTINUE to try to figure out and to unlock it's mysteries when all of what we are trying to unlock is already put together in perfect order! We even try to duplicate what is already here! It's already been done! This planet is in order beyond our imaginations! It didn't happen by random chance or by evolution! EVERYTHING, ALL, processes in this world start to deteriorate the first moment after they are created (key word), so how can something "evolve"? If anything it "dissolves"!
EVOLU'TION, n. [L. evolutio.] The act of unfolding or unrolling.
1. A series of things unrolled or unfolded; as the evolution of ages.
2. In geometry, the unfolding or opening of a curve,and making it describe an evolvent. The equable evolution of the periphery of a circle, or other curve, is such a gradual approach of the circumference to rectitude, as that its parts do all concur, and equally evolve or unbend; so that the same line becomes successively a less arc of a reciprocally greater circle, till at last they change into a straight line.
3. In algebra, evolution is the extraction of roots from powers; the reverse of involution.
4. In military tactics, the doubling of ranks or files, wheeling, countermarching or other motion by which the disposition of troops is changed, in order to attack or defend with more advantage, or to occupy a different post.
(evolution appears in definitions for these words:
Acid Deflagration Disciplinarian Discipline Evolution Evolvent Exercise Logarithm Maneuver Oxygenate Signal Tactic Tactics Unwind)
I don't see anything in this definition (Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionay. "No other dictionary compares with the Webster's 1828 dictionary. The English language has changed again and again and in many instances has become corrupt.") that makes reference to an animal or life on this earth. On the other hand look at the definition of "dissolve":
DISSOLVE, v.t. dizzolv. [L., to loose, to free.]
1. To melt; to liquefy; to convert from a solid or fixed state to a fluid state, by means of heat or moisture.
To desolve by heat, is to loosen the parts of a solid body and render them fluid or easily movable. Thus ice is converted into water by dissolution.
To dissolve in a liquid, is to separate the parts of a solid substance, and cause them to mix with the fluid; or to reduce a solid substance into minute parts which may be sustained in that fluid. Thus water dissolves salt and sugar.
2. To disunite; to break; to separate.
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness? 2 Pet 3.
3. To loose; to disunite.
Down fell the duke, his joints dissolved.
4. To loose the ties or bonds of any thing; to destroy an connected system; as, to dissolve a government; to dissolve a corporation.
5. To loose; to break; as, to dissolve a league; to dissolve the bonds of friendship.
6. To break up; to cause to separate; to put an end to; as, to dissolve the parliament; to dissolve an assembly.
7. To clear; to solve; to remove; to dissipate, or to explain; as, to dissolve doubts. We usually say, to solve doubts and difficulties.
8. To break; to destroy; as, to dissolve a charm, spell or enchantment.
9. To loosen or relax; to make languid; as dissolved in pleasure.
10. To waste away; to consume; to cause to vanish or perish.
Thou dissolvest my substance. Job 30.
11. To annul; to rescind; as, to dissolve an injunction.
DISSOLVE, v.i. dizzolv.
1. To be melted; to be converted from a solid to a fluid state; as, sugar dissolves in water.
2. To sink away; to lose strength and firmness.
3. To melt away in pleasure; to become soft or languid.
4. To fall asunder; to crumble; to be broken. A government may dissolve by its own weight or extent.
5. To waste away; to perish; to be decomposed. Flesh dissolves by putrefaction.
6. To come to an end by a separation of parts.
People, come on, what would it hurt if you placed your belief, hope, faith in the Truth of the Bible and TRY to live your life accordingly? What would you lose? I know what the Bible says you'll lose and I'm not willing to take that chance that this is all a hoax or a lie! Eternal seperation from God and in Hell or...Eternal Life with Jesus Christ? You think you have it bad here on earth? And I can speak for those that have or are suffering the most heinous of sufferings here on Earth...this is as GOOD as it gets as compared to what you'll endure in hell for ETERNITY! There is so much evidence as to how/why the Bible is True. Why refute it? Why make excuses? This isn't about religion people! It's about the Word of God and living again after you leave this Earth and spending eternity in HELL or with Jesus Christ!
Statement: So, the Truth of the Bible turns out to be a hoax...then you die. You become worm food. On the other hand, the Truth turns out to be the TRUTH and where will you spend eternity now? It was a pretty easy choice for me. I am 100% sure that when I die that I am going to spend eternity with Jesus Christ and now I am obligated to share this with others to win their souls to Christ. Refute it, disagree, get upset, contend, revile me, persecute me, say all manner of evil against me and the Lord blesses me. (Matthew 5:11)
What a God!
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 26, 2009 - 11:16am PT
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Illusiondweller,
Really, an 1828 dictionary, and you're surprised it doesn't have a reference to biological evolution? Do you even know when the theory got it's start?
Karl and others,
As to the idea of probabilities and coincidences. Let's say I take my kids to the park and there are other people kids there. Later I take my kids to the movies. While standing in line I'm standing right in front of a woman and her kids who also were at the park. Neither of us see this coincidence. Furthermore she works at the same hospital as my wife. They even share the same first name. What's more interesting is that she and I are actuall related. 3rd cousins. What are the odds of this happening? Huge I would think. Is this not amazing? And yet it is lost on us as we wait in line.
The girl at the beach who lost her dog may have missed other coincidences of which she was unaware. Perhaps this was the beach where her parents vacationed and fell in love. The dog thief works in the same building as her brother. As their awkward dog ownership dance continues, she doesn't notice that a portion of the water washing over her feet was actually drank as unsalted river water by one of her distant ancestors. That person went on to explore America and was with the very expedition that discovered this bit of beach for the Spanish.
All these are very real possibilities. We only notice when a drop jumps out of the boiling pot of possibilities for us to see and be moved by. I do this myself, but I temper it with this understanding. How many incredible, highly improbable coincidences are we witnessing yet missing everyday? It's the hum and ho-hum of it all.
Edit: Removed references to god and designer, that was not intent of this post.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 26, 2009 - 11:46am PT
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eternity in HELL
This is not true illusiondweller. This is a secretarian religious dogma based on poor fund of knowledge and injected for the purpose of fear.
Even in society no one is ever sentenced to jail for eternity.
This material world is a direct reflection of the real.
Although temporary it is not false.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 26, 2009 - 12:05pm PT
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as for psychic abilities... if you think about the advantages of foretelling the future, or knowing the right place to look for something or somebody, it would have a tremendous selection advantage...
"gee, I wonder if that woman would be interested in me? ah, I can tell she isn't, go on to the next one.... ah, she is interested, lets spend some time..."
just in terms of procreating (which is the basis of natural selection) if you could tell then you would be much much more successful in propagating your genetic characteristics, and so would your offspring.
But it doesn't seem to be the case that there is any advantage to being psychic... which I take to indicate the non-existence of the "power."
As far as those "coincidences," it is part of the way your memory works, there is no disadvantage to paying attention to a coincidence of two things that are not related, and a large advantage to associating a correct causal coincidence. The memory takes these surprising coincidence triggers as part of the process of retaining the conditions, even if they are not actually causal. So it is difficult to separate out the truly causal events on just memory. Once this stuff is in our memory, it becomes a part of how we perceive reality, and the universe we build internally contains all sorts of strange relationships that persist. Often these are little superstitions, like my own of tying the left shoe before the right shoe... obviously some time I did it in the opposite way and something bad happened, associating that particular ordering with bad things... it is hard for me to tie them in the other order...
...I await Karl's and Jan's explanation on how reversing the shoe tying order can affect the day's events (somehow the whole thing resets the next day) in a manner external to what happens in my mind.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 26, 2009 - 12:30pm PT
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Ed writes
Once this stuff is in our memory, it becomes a part of how we perceive reality, and the universe we build internally contains all sorts of strange relationships that persist. Often these are little superstitions, like my own of tying the left shoe before the right shoe... obviously some time I did it in the opposite way and something bad happened, associating that particular ordering with bad things... it is hard for me to tie them in the other order...
...I await Karl's and Jan's explanation on how reversing the shoe tying order can affect the day's events (somehow the whole thing resets the next day) in a manner external to what happens in my mind.
The action of most rituals (and the shoe tying is both a superstition and a ritual) is secondary to the intent of it. We make an intent with our prayers and ceremonies and then feed that intent with the energy of our attention.
If you reverse your shoe tying order, what happens will be a function of how you think and feel about it. If you feel you've sinned or gone against your lucky stuff, the energy vibe you project from yourself will shift negatively, expecting harm, and the world, which responds to the totality of you, will more easily visit you with undesirable results.
Of course, no supernatural explanation is needed for the above scenario because for many negative repercussions, subtle clues are enough. When somebody expects rejection or drags their tail, some folks are quick to sense it and pile on.
but back to your coincidence explanation, I think it's disingenuous and you know it. Likely you are crossing the line into making arguments to fit your idea that there is no spiritual anything. Seeing kids in two places in the same town is a far cry from events linking in two different states altogether. You criticize the fantastic explanations of people who want to believe religion then you should use reasonable examples in your own writing.
Everything has a rational explanation if you are willing to stretch far enough.
Psychic powers and fortune telling? Your debunking of it was too simplistic and complete with assumptions. While there may be several possibilities in how an energy or event might manifest, some fortune telling/prophecy may only be possible if there are events that are karmically inevitable (substitute destiny terms from other religions for 'karma' if you want) That being the case, it's hardly self-selecting if you know the future and can't avoid it. An Indian astrologer told me two years ago I would injure my ankle around the fall of 2009. A lot of good that advice did me! (except to keep up on my insurance)
now there are amazing astrologers and lame ones. Most are lame but here's some coincidence. A friend walks into the astrologer, who doesn't know her or her real name. He tells her everything about her past, including things so sensitive her friends don't know. He says her brothers have 8 kids between them and she corrects him and says 7. He says "one died" and she says "yeah, forgot about that." Just one tiny example among hundreds.
You have to really stretch to explain that with science, thus, you'll think I'm nuts, or she's nuts or a denial of this whole bit of information will just gloss it over. Christians will think demons are responsible even though it was astrologers who visited Christ at birth and they have their own prophets.
We are destined to live thinking what we want to think until we open to what we find without projecting
Peace
Karl
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 26, 2009 - 12:39pm PT
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it's not a stretch...
it just doesn't happen the way you think it does... it's a card trick, and a well known one at that.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 26, 2009 - 01:05pm PT
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Seeing kids in two places in the same town is a far cry from events linking in two different states altogether. You criticize the fantastic explanations of people who want to believe religion then you should use reasonable examples in your own writing.
Is it that far a cry? In relation to what? I'm not critizing so much as asking for a little critical thinking.
I once went on a cross country trip by car in '76 to see America during the bicentennial with my family. After many weeks of travel we arrived in DC and to the Smithsonian Museum. Inside I walked alone towards the moon rock display. The rock was suspended by rods in a frame of sorts so that you could actually touch it. As my focus on the rock drifted from the rock to the person looking at it from the other side, I recognized the face of my best friend Tom looking at the rock. He had flown with his parents to DC the day before. We chatted a bit and he had to go on with his folks. Cool, amazing coincidence. Enjoyed it. Cross country events linked. Big deal.
Everything has a rational explanation if you are willing to stretch far enough. and can have a supernatural one if you're willing to go farther.
You want athiest/agnostics to see your point of view (god/designer/spirit force whatever, everywhere, all the time) and I do, but you get cranky when we suggest another way of looking at it.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 26, 2009 - 01:09pm PT
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Shoe tying is a card trick? What? I didn't understand Ed's question in the first place and now I'm really confused! Anyway, I'd say that finding a beloved, lost dog is a lot more significant than how you tie your shoes. I think it is also a lot more meaningful than bumping into a friend you weren't even thinking about.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 26, 2009 - 01:12pm PT
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I wear flip-flops and miss my dog...
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 26, 2009 - 01:21pm PT
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Truth For Life; Alistair Begg
The Incarnation Explained by Jesus, Part A
Scriptures: John 6:25
For many people, the story of Christmas stops at the birth of Jesus. But if we consider all that happened at the ancient scene in Bethlehem, we’d discover that our Savior’s birth fits into God’s plan for all generations.
http://www.truthforlife.org/broadcasts/2009/12/26/incarnation-explained-jesus-part-a/
December 26, 2009
The Foundation of the Covenant of Grace
The last Adam.
1 Corinthians 15:45
Jesus is the representative head of His people. In Adam every heir of flesh and blood has a personal interest, because he is the covenant head and representative of the race when considered under the law of works; so under the law of grace, every redeemed soul is one with the Lord from heaven, since He is the Second Adam, the Sponsor and Substitute of the elect in the new covenant of love.
The apostle Paul declares that Levi was in the loins of Abraham when Melchizedek met him: It is a certain truth that the believer was in the loins of Jesus Christ, the Mediator, when in eternity the covenant settlements of grace were decreed, ratified, and made sure forever.
Whatever Christ has done, He has accomplished for the whole body of His Church. We were crucified in Him and buried with Him (read Col. 2:10-13), and to make it still more wonderful, we are risen with Him and even ascended with Him to the seats on high (Eph. 2:6). It is in this way that the Church has fulfilled the law and is "blessed in the Beloved."#
She is regarded with satisfaction by the just Jehovah, for He views her in Jesus, and does not look upon her as separate from her covenant head. As the Anointed Redeemer of Israel, Christ Jesus has nothing distinct from His Church, but all that He has He holds for her. Adam's righteousness was ours so long as he maintained it, and his sin was ours the moment that he committed it; and in the same way, all that the Second Adam is or does is ours as well as His because He is our representative.
Here is the foundation of the covenant of grace. This gracious system of representation and substitution, which moved Justin Martyr to cry out, "O blessed change, O sweet permutation!" is the very groundwork of the Gospel of our salvation and is to be received with strong faith and rapturous joy.
#Ephesians 1:6
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Truth_for_Life/archives.asp?bcd=2009-12-25
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Q and A
Saturday, December 26, 2009 Must a person believe in the virgin birth in order to be saved? Does Jeremiah 10 describe the first Christmas tree? Should Christians teach their children about Santa Claus?
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/thru_the_bible_questions_and_answers/Archives.asp
Thru the Bible - Questions & Answers - Dr. J. Vernon McGee
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We are all of Adam, any one of us could have been born as anyone else, we are all the same, go the extra mile in someone else's feet, to see that it's true. We are of the earth alone apart from Jesus our Lord and Savior!
Gobee
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 26, 2009 - 02:03pm PT
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Hey BC
Not cranky. You know the net, when somebody is disagreeing with you, it sounds cranky no matter what.
How can you know there's no energetic karmic connection in seeing your friend in DC out of the blue? It can't be proved either way.
Ed wrote
it's not a stretch...
it just doesn't happen the way you think it does... it's a card trick, and a well known one at that
Don't know what you're talking about, please explain.
Dr. F may be correct. The Dog story could just be made up! However there are trillions of such stories and when they start happening to you, you take notices. Dr F writes
Has anyone ever mystical experience so miraculous that it withstand any scientific inquiry, NO
There is a well known scientific research program that is offering a 1 million dollar prize for anyone with psychic abilities to demonstrate them in front of a scientific panel, all takers have failed, most were exposed as frauds
No one has demonstrated their psychic abilities, no one can win the lottery, win big at Vegas, no one has won Golf by telekinetics, - 6 billion people trying, not one has succeeded
More assumptions. Scientists avoid trying to prove the supernatural because it discredits them with other scientists. So credible scientists don't go there and if some scientists claim to have proved something, we just move them over into the pseudo-science category.
Still, your post is based on a lot of assumptions. You don't know what's been researched or not.
The atheists and agnostics on this thread make the mistake of assuming what a righteous (or otherwise) God MUST be like and it's usually simplistic. Also, if the universe really IS a conscious living interactive place, there are "rules" that keep the game going.
For example, masters with real, potent extraordinary abilities do not prove their stuff nor demonstrate for science. Why? Because people on this planet have a divine right to have their head in the sand, to believe what they want to believe and not have their mind rocked by some yogi. A true yogi gets this message on the inside and let's everybody have their own view. You don't get the revelation before you are ready and those connected with Spirit respect that.
But some interesting studies of some yogis have been done, particularly regarding meditation and such. What do you think of this?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3236118.stm
"Doctors and experts are baffled by an Indian hermit who claims not to have eaten or drunk anything for several decades - but is still in perfect health.
Prahlad Jani, a holy man, or fakir, who is over 70 years old, has just spent 10 days under constant observation in Sterling Hospital, in the western Indian city of Ahmedabad.
During that time, he did not consume anything and "neither did he pass urine or stool", according to the hospital's deputy superintendent, Dr Dinesh Desai.
Yet he is in fine mental and physical fettle, say doctors.
Most people can live without food for several weeks, with the body drawing on its fat and protein stores. But the average human can survive for only three to four days without water.
Followers of Indian holy men and ascetics have often ascribed extraordinary powers to them, but such powers are seldom subject to scientific inspection....."
see the segments here
http://sunlightenment.com/discovery-channel-documentary-on-breatharian-prahlad-jani/
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 26, 2009 - 02:08pm PT
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Dr F -- No one has demonstrated their psychic abilities, no one can win the lottery, win big at Vegas, no one has won Golf by telekinetics, - 6 billion people trying, not one has succeeded
You continuously demonstrate pure stupidity and extreme sophism.
A bonafide spiritual master would never show up for nonsense such as proving he can win the lottery. His life would become a living hell as all these greedy people attack him to help them in their greed.
Such a bonafide person will never show up for such a rascal scientific research program that is offering a 1 million dollar prize either.
The nihilistic material scientist does not want to do any spiritual work yet continually challenges the true spiritualist to "PROVE".
Challenging pure love can never be done by the materialist, the bonafide true spiritual master will never reveal himself to such a rascal and challenge.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 26, 2009 - 02:24pm PT
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"no one can win the lottery"
Unless you redeem the ticket, Jesus is the winning ticket!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 26, 2009 - 03:11pm PT
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Karl,
If I am a scientist I'd love to be able to know what is going to happen in the future... in fact, most of my work is predictive, which means my physical theories will be used to say what will happen in a particular situation.
And guess what, that works very well, even given the amount that we do not understand.
Now if I had a way of "intuiting" the outcome, it would be a huge advantage to my research activity. I could short cut around all the false starts and irrelevant stuff and just get to what it is I want to know. It would be great, and I wouldn't have to tell anyone I was doing it if I were producing first class science. I'd have the amazing power to figure out just what I should be working on, and what I shouldn't waste my time doing.
It wouldn't discredit me in the least if I utilized that way of thinking to come up with legitimate science, since we don't actually have a physical model of thought, especially how to specifically think these things up... well, we do have a way, but it is tedious and fraught with blind allies, false starts and negative proofs. Wouldn't it be nice if it were easy, put myself in some meditative state and see the answer... wow... no fuss, no muss...
The reason scientists don't do it is because it doesn't work, at least not for understanding the physical universe.
On the other hand, if you not only eschew the quantitative study of the physical (material) universe, but also any quantitative measure of the "spiritual universe" than you have the liberty to declare that it works and that you don't have to demonstrate it scientifically...
...of course, anyone can do that with anything. It is so much easier to explain something when you don't have actually prove anything.
Just open yourself up to the universe and let it flow through you.
I don't have anything against that.... I do it all the time myself. I don't believe that that state is much more than my individual response to the physical stimuli and my experience (which includes the experience of others as communicated to me through my senses).
The experience is as beautiful as if I didn't know anything about Mie scattering, or thermonuclear reactions, or gravity... though those things enhance the beauty and sharpen the moment.
But you can fool yourself, badly, by just acting on what you feel inside, by believing what you think... especially if you take that as the definition of the universe.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 26, 2009 - 03:22pm PT
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Ed -- But you can fool yourself, badly, by just acting on what you feel inside, by believing what you think.
Yes, this is true.
This applies to everyone.
So what is the standard (foundation), that is measured against.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 26, 2009 - 03:29pm PT
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How can you know there's no energetic karmic connection in seeing your friend in DC out of the blue? It can't be proved either way.
Exactly, but the possibilty of this event can be demonstrated using statistics minus any mystical inferences. I know there is a stastical probablity, I do not have to assume this, an actual number can be derived. If the chance were 1 in 200,000,000, there would still be that one chance.
on the other hand, I have no way of demonstrating any "energetic karmic connection" and I'm not apt to assume one. Why should I? There was nothing miraculous in our individual trips, modes of travel or our itineraries. You want to see the mystical connection, but have no way of really knowing one exists, so you assume it does. I will admit that I probably apply Joacim's Razor too stringently. I may be missing a lot. I guess I try to accept things as they happen without preloading them with mystic baggage.
Let's say a man leaves NY on his way to your home town. He arrives 4 days later. That same morning you get up to go buy milk. On the way you and the guy from NY arrive at a 4 way stop at exactly the same moment. What are the odds? You are both driving white cars. What are the odds? He shares your birthday and he's married to your wife's 3rd cousin. What are the odds? You drive off and never discover these many statisically improbable connections. No personal meeting, no wow moment. Coicidence or karmic connection? At what point does an event become a karmic connection? Are there no coincidences or is it all coincidence? Something in between? (Is my agnostic angst showing?).
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 26, 2009 - 03:31pm PT
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Ed wrote
On the other hand, if you not only eschew the quantitative study of the physical (material) universe, but also any quantitative measure of the "spiritual universe" than you have the liberty to declare that it works and that you don't have to demonstrate it scientifically...
...of course, anyone can do that with anything. It is so much easier to explain something when you don't have actually prove anything
Personally, I would never recommend eschewing the quantitative study of the physical universe. I don't the world is 6000 years old.
I'm all for studying the spiritual as much as possible. The tools haven't been invented yet for the most part... we've got a ways to go. Did you click or check out the story of the Yogi who claimed not to eat nor drink and then proved it for 10 days? You might think something like that would make wider news or inspire further study.
Nope, our minds just gloss over it. The yogi is lucky the military didn't abduct him and force him to teach soldiers to live without food and water.
The way you describe the power of intuition, it's clear you are operating from assumptions about how it works and how it can be used. That's natural but doesn't disprove anything. And again, I'd say a lot of scientific progress, even yours, progresses from intuitive direction. It's just that we incorporate spiritual elements within ourself without identifying how we get our inspirations.
This is something that can be further developed, whether someone calls it "spiritual" or not.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 26, 2009 - 03:36pm PT
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But you can fool yourself, badly, by just acting on what you feel inside, by believing what you think... especially if you take that as the definition of the universe.
Yes, of course, and that goes for everyone.
All of our "Definitions" of the universe, scientific and spiritual, are bound to be limited.
peace
karl
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 26, 2009 - 03:37pm PT
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"Come back to the chosen people from whom you all originated"
Hopefully FatTrad will explain for us the roots of Judaism in, and its borrowings from Zoroastrianism, Mesopotamian and Egyptian religions. Like all religions, except perhaps the very first nature cults, a human created and syncretistic thing.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 26, 2009 - 03:45pm PT
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BC wrote
Exactly, but the possibilty of this event can be demonstrated using statistics minus any mystical inferences. I know there is a stastical probablity, I do not have to assume this, an actual number can be derived. If the chance were 1 in 200,000,000, there would still be that one chance.
on the other hand, I have no way of demonstrating any "energetic karmic connection" and I'm not apt to assume one. Why should I? There was nothing miraculous in our individual trips, modes of travel or our itineraries. You want to see the mystical connection, but have no way of really knowing one exists, so you assume it does. I will admit that I probably apply Joacim's Razor too stringently. I may be missing a lot. I guess I try to accept things as they happen without preloading them with mystic baggage.
Just be open to it being either way (divine coincidence or not) You don't have to assume anything. You can listen to your inner feeling regarding the guy who shows up unexpectedly. Talk to him. Something that happens to me all the time is this: I'll connect with somebody about something and they'll say my message came at exactly the right time with the right words for them. You may never know the "reason" why that guy was there, it's just that people are connected and things aren't random. Notice this and you'll know more about the "magic" of the world around you.
Accept things as they are without preloading them with mystic baggage or numbing yourself to the mystery either. Just observe life keenly and openly and see where it take you. If you automatically assumed "just a coincidence" you lose out on the poetry of things and the ability of life's events to get a message to you.
Peace
Karl
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 26, 2009 - 03:49pm PT
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Just observe life keenly and openly and see where it take you.
Pretty much what I do. Were probably a lot more alike than not in many respects, just different in the degree of tilt.
Bill
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 26, 2009 - 03:58pm PT
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Pretty much what I do. Were probably a lot more alike than not in many respects, just different in the degree of tilt.
Bill
I think it's like that regarding a lot of supertopo debates on the intellectual level. We're all cool with each other in reality.
People are weird. We're all living in our own worlds, perceiving things through the filters of our mind and conditioning, but we share a vast amount in common too.
Learning to coexist with folks with whom we have least in common is ..... "evolution."
I think its hilarious that I'm debating this stuff with Ed. I've met him in person and he has a major spiritual "awake" vibe going in him all the time. He must have to resist hard to keep it from flashing in his rational thought train. I propose that this is why he bothers to debate so vigorously. The dam is ready to burst within him and bust his view of things.
Nothing he thinks can prevent him from being "spiritual" He just is.
It can't last. If he stands by his words here in 10 years, I'll do the idiotic whacko dance for the Facelift campfire (at least the geriatric campfire off to the side..)
peace
Karl
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 26, 2009 - 04:11pm PT
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you're on Karl...
...practice, practice, practice...
then we'll go and send Wild Thing
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 26, 2009 - 04:19pm PT
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It's mostly chimneys .....
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 26, 2009 - 04:26pm PT
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Halalujah I Believe ! in chimneys!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 26, 2009 - 04:34pm PT
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I can't make things happen but sometimes they do, call it what you will;
I had not seen or talked to my friend Kirk in a very long time and one day I thought of him and wondered what he was doing and he call me that same day!
Also my friend the Goyle said it seem's like earthquake weather and there was one the same day!
However Jesus called it;
Jesus Calls Philip and Nathanael
John 1:43-51, The next day Jesus decided to go to Galilee. He found Philip and said to him, “Follow me.” Now Philip was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found him of whom Moses in the Law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.” Nathanael said to him, Can anything good come out of Nazareth?” Philip said to him, “Come and see.” Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward him and said of him, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deceit!” Nathanael said to him, “How do you know me?” Jesus answered him, “Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.” Nathanael answered him, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!” Jesus answered him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.” And he said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”
Jesus and the Woman of Samaria
John 4:1-42, Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples), he left Judea and departed again for Galilee. And he had to pass through Samaria. So he came to a town of Samaria called Sychar, near the field that Jacob had given to his son Joseph. Jacob's well was there; so Jesus, wearied as he was from his journey, was sitting beside the well. It was about the sixth hour.
A woman from Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give me a drink.” (For his disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.) The Samaritan woman said to him, “How is it that you, a Jew, ask for a drink from me, a woman of Samaria?” (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.) Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.” The woman said to him, “Sir, you have nothing to draw water with, and the well is deep. Where do you get that living water? Are you greater than our father Jacob? He gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did his sons and his livestock.” Jesus said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.” The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water, so that I will not be thirsty or have to come here to draw water.”
Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.” The woman answered him, “I have no husband.” Jesus said to her, “You are right in saying, ‘I have no husband’; for you have had five husbands, and the one you now have is not your husband. What you have said is true.” The woman said to him, “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.” Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.”
Just then his disciples came back. They marveled that he was talking with a woman, but no one said, “What do you seek?” or, “Why are you talking with her?” So the woman left her water jar and went away into town and said to the people, “Come, see a man who told me all that I ever did. Can this be the Christ?” They went out of the town and were coming to him.
Meanwhile the disciples were urging him, saying, “Rabbi, eat.” But he said to them, “I have food to eat that you do not know about.” So the disciples said to one another, “Has anyone brought him something to eat?” Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to accomplish his work. Do you not say, ‘There are yet four months, then comes the harvest’? Look, I tell you, lift up your eyes, and see that the fields are white for harvest. Already the one who reaps is receiving wages and gathering fruit for eternal life, so that sower and reaper may rejoice together. For here the saying holds true, ‘One sows and another reaps.’ I sent you to reap that for which you did not labor. Others have labored, and you have entered into their labor.”
Many Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman's testimony, “He told me all that I ever did.” So when the Samaritans came to him, they asked him to stay with them, and he stayed there two days. And many more believed because of his word. They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.”
The Triumphal Entry
Matthew 21:1-5, Now when they drew near to Jerusalem and came to Bethphage, to the Mount of Olives, then Jesus sent two disciples, saying to them, “Go into the village in front of you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her. Untie them and bring them to me. If anyone says anything to you, you shall say, ‘The Lord needs them,’ and he will send them at once.” This took place to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet, saying,
“Say to the daughter of Zion,
‘Behold, your king is coming to you,
humble, and mounted on a donkey,
and on a colt, the foal of a beast of burden.’”
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MH2
climber
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Dec 26, 2009 - 05:43pm PT
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HalalujahI Believe, in chimneys!
I believe in chimneys, without chimneys, above chimneys, and under chimneys.
I believe I begin to see a little better what Karl is talking about, here. Whenever you meet another human being there are a lot of opportunities in that encounter which most of us most of the time just duck and try to hold our mundane course so we can get through the day without too much trouble. I've met the occasional person who, perhaps like Karl, is more open to looking at where else that encounter might take you. But don't be gullible, lest you be gulled.
People (hey! like chimneys!) hold in them a lot of possibilities, not all of which can be realized, but which can be raw material for anything from tragedy to ecstasy.
Damn! Missed the coincidence of having this thread meet the Show us Your Foot Pictures thread by just this much.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 26, 2009 - 07:01pm PT
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Ed wrote
you're on Karl...
...practice, practice, practice...
then we'll go and send Wild Thing
I see, you don't believe in God but are in league with the Devil!
You're leading! Cause I've been up there and I'm never going back to Hell without a leader with an asbestos suit.
Peace
Karl
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 27, 2009 - 02:19am PT
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It's good to see that two of my best cyber friends have kissed and made up. Ha!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 27, 2009 - 02:35am PT
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I don't believe we ever were truly bothered by each other but we haven't kissed either!
;-)
Karl
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 27, 2009 - 02:48am PT
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I agree with Karl, never thought it was a "fight" but it is a good argument...
...don't have any problem showing affection for Karl... he's a wonderful person.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 27, 2009 - 02:58am PT
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Obviously you haven't lived in France or you would kissed each other (on the cheeks of your face of course)!
I realized after my first week in Paris as a student, that I had kissed more strangers on the cheek in one week than I had my reserved Anglo Saxon family in a lifetime! I definitely received a warm welcome there.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 27, 2009 - 03:22am PT
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Kiss Eddie on the cheek much and you'll be coughing up hairballs in no time!
I'd hug him though. Looks like Gerry Garcia. You'd have to be a neocon not to want to hug Ed
;-)
Karl
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 27, 2009 - 02:12pm PT
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The Day The Earth Stood Still!
Mark 35:35-41, On that day, when evening had come, he said to them, “Let us go across to the other side.” And leaving the crowd, they took him with them in the boat, just as he was. And other boats were with him. And a great windstorm arose, and the waves were breaking into the boat, so that the boat was already filling. But he was in the stern, asleep on the cushion. And they woke him and said to him, “Teacher, do you not care that we are perishing?” And he awoke and rebuked the wind and said to the sea, “Peace! Be still!” And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm. He said to them, “Why are you so afraid? Have you still no faith?” And they were filled with great fear and said to one another, “Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?”
Psalms 107:23-32, Some went down to the sea in ships,
doing business on the great waters;
they saw the deeds of the Lord,
his wondrous works in the deep.
For he commanded and raised the stormy wind,
which lifted up the waves of the sea.
They mounted up to heaven; they went down to the depths;
their courage melted away in their evil plight;
they reeled and staggered like drunken men
and were at their wits' end.
Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble,
and he delivered them from their distress.
He made the storm be still,
and the waves of the sea were hushed.
Then they were glad that the waters were quiet,
and he brought them to their desired haven.
Let them thank the Lord for his steadfast love,
for his wondrous works to the children of man!
Let them extol him in the congregation of the people,
and praise him in the assembly of the elders.
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.1) By John MacArthur
http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
The love of God
The love of God is greater far
Than tongue or pen can ever tell;
It goes beyond the highest star,
And reaches to the lowest hell;
The guilty pair, bowed down with care,
God gave His Son to win;
His erring child He reconciled,
And pardoned from his sin.
Refrain
O love of God, how rich and pure!
How measureless and strong!
It shall forevermore endure
The saints’ and angels’ song.
When years of time shall pass away,
And earthly thrones and kingdoms fall,
When men, who here refuse to pray,
On rocks and hills and mountains call,
God’s love so sure, shall still endure,
All measureless and strong;
Redeeming grace to Adam’s race—
The saints’ and angels’ song.
Refrain
Could we with ink the ocean fill,
And were the skies of parchment made,
Were every stalk on earth a quill,
And every man a scribe by trade,
To write the love of God above,
Would drain the ocean dry.
Nor could the scroll contain the whole,
Though stretched from sky to sky.
Refrain
Words: Frederick M. Lehman; he wrote this song in 1917 in Pasadena, California, and it was published in Songs That Are Different, Volume 2, 1919. The lyrics are based on the Jewish poem Haddamut, written in Aramaic in 1050 by Meir Ben Isaac Nehorai, a cantor in Worms, Germany; they have been translated into at least 18 languages.
One day, during short intervals of inattention to our work, we picked up a scrap of paper and, seated upon an empty lemon box pushed against the wall, with a stub pencil, added the (first) two stanzas and chorus of the song…Since the lines (3rd stanza from the Jewish poem) had been found penciled on the wall of a patient’s room in an insane asylum after he had been carried to his grave, the general opinion was that this inmate had written the epic in moments of sanity.
Frederick M. Lehman, “History of the Song, The Love of God,” 1948
Music: Frederick Lehman; arranged by his daughter, Claudia L. Mays
This Santa goes up the chimney
Our Heavenly Dwelling
2 Corinthians 5:1-10, For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 28, 2009 - 12:29am PT
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To put it all in perspective, check out Peter Haan's thread with the video he found showing the place of earth in the universe.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1044110/SUPERB_COSMIC_VIDEO_FROM_AMERICAN_MUSEUM_OF_NATURAL_HISTORY
It won't solve anything on this thread but hopefully will help the religious people to understand how the scientists could think studying only the material universe is enough, and also why the spiritual/religious people think that it is all so grand, there must be something more than just matter behind it all.
I was pleased of course that the place on earth they decided to zoom out from was the Himalayas, the spiritual center of the world in my cosmology anyway. Somewhere north of those mountains of course, is the mystical land of Shambhala.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 28, 2009 - 08:15pm PT
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Thanks Jan for Peter's link!
Talking about a needle in a hay stack
Earth is so amazing, and so is everything else!
God sure doesn't skimp!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 29, 2009 - 01:50am PT
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Hebrews 9:25—10:24
Monday, December 28, 2009
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Thru_the_Bible_with_JVernon_McGee/archives.asp?bcd=2009-12-28Thru the Bible - Dr. J. Vernon McGee
Hebrews 9:25-28, Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
Hebrews 10:1-24, For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? 3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5 Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said,
“Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
6 in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”
8 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”
17 then he adds,
“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”
18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.
The Full Assurance of Faith
19 Therefore, brothers, [since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,
One thing have I asked of the Lord,
that will I seek after:
that I may dwell in the house of the Lord
all the days of my life,
to gaze upon the beauty of the Lord
and to inquire in his temple.
For he will hide me in his shelter
in the day of trouble;
he will conceal me under the cover of his tent;
he will lift me high upon a rock.
Ascribe to the Lord, O heavenly beings,
ascribe to the Lord glory and strength.
Ascribe to the Lord the glory due his name;
worship the Lord in the splendor of holiness.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 29, 2009 - 02:01am PT
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Well it's a done deal this whole thread.
It's proved IRON CLAD that GOD exists.
Time for everyone to go home.
Baseball season is now over and the Super Bowl will start soon .......
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 29, 2009 - 02:41am PT
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what if you don't wear iron?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Dec 29, 2009 - 03:42am PT
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Ed- "What if you don't wear iron?"
Ya should check it out...it's free.
Starts with the helmet of salvation, then the breastplate of righteousness, the sword of the Spirit(which is the word of God)and the shield of faith etc.
"Put on the whole armor of God..." Ephesians 6:11.
You would make one badazz soldier!!
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MH2
climber
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Dec 29, 2009 - 05:09am PT
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Is this a dream?
If it is, I hope I finished my homework before going to bed.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 29, 2009 - 11:50am PT
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Nothing is certain but death and taxes
Meaning
A rather fatalistic and sardonic proverb. It draws on the actual inevitability of death to highlight the difficulty in avoiding the burden of taxes.
Origin
Several famous authors have uttered lines to this effect. The first was Daniel Defoe, in The Political History of the Devil, 1726:
"Things as certain as death and taxes, can be more firmly believed."
Benjamin Franklin (1706-90) used the form we are currently more familiar with, in a letter to Jean-Baptiste Leroy, 1789, which was re-printed in The Works of Benjamin Franklin, 1817:
"'In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes."
Another thought on the theme of death and taxes is Margaret Mitchell's line from her book Gone With the Wind, 1936:
"Death, taxes and childbirth! There's never any convenient time for any of them."
Solomon's Prayer of Dedication;
1 Kings 8:27, “But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have built!
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.1) By John MacArthur
http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
Deuteronomy 32:43, “Rejoice with him, O heavens;
bow down to him, all gods,
for he avenges the blood of his children
and takes vengeance on his adversaries.
He repays those who hate him
and cleanses his people's land.”
Revelation 6:10, They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
Psalms 51:1-4, Have mercy on me, O God,
according to your steadfast love;
according to your abundant mercy
blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
and cleanse me from my sin!
3 For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight,
so that you may be justified in your words
and blameless in your judgment.
Psalms 86:5, For you, O Lord, are good and forgiving,
abounding in steadfast love to all who call upon you.
Psalms 100:5, For the Lord is good;
his steadfast love endures forever,
and his faithfulness to all generations.
Jeremiah 5:9, Shall I not punish them for these things?
declares the Lord;
and shall I not avenge myself
on a nation such as this?
Romans 3:18, “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
Romans 3:22-26, For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Romans 8:1-2, There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
Mark 2:5-12, And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?” And immediately Jesus, perceiving in his spirit that they thus questioned within themselves, said to them, “Why do you question these things in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise, take up your bed and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he said to the paralytic— “I say to you, rise, pick up your bed, and go home.” And he rose and immediately picked up his bed and went out before them all, so that they were all amazed and glorified God, saying, “We never saw anything like this!”
Acts 4:12, And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Titus 3:4-7, But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
At Horse Flats my friend Goyle put up the Teflon President(because nothing sticks)! Not that we want to continue in sin, but we still do, we can be Teflon Sinners, because of the Grace of God through Jesus!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 29, 2009 - 11:57am PT
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7^3 - I prefer to run naked in the wild
Jan - not sure why you would say "metaphysical," the article was sort of an impression of what goes on while we produce science. It isn't a staid process, lots of excitement, just over things most people wouldn't get excited about...
...the CDMS collaboration was "opening the box" on their most recent, and longest, run searching for Weakly Interacting Massive Particles, aka WIMPs. "Opening the box" refers to a technique in which the quantities measured in the experiment that would indicate discovery are "hidden" by the addition of random factors, where as other quantities pertaining to the analysis, like resolution, are not. The analysis can proceed to understand all of the instrumental affects without being guided by the desirable outcome of discovery. Sort of like "double blind" experiments... it is a way to overcome the hugely subjective guidance provided by human intellect.
We do this, of course, because we are aware of the limitations of human thought, and its tendency to see things, patterns, etc, where there are none. Also its limited concepts of reality. While this may sound metaphysical, it is actually a part of learning new things in a systematic manner.
There was a lot of disappointment over the CDMS result (CDMS is an acronym for: Cold Dark Matter Search, which searches for "cold" dark matter and is a cryogenic detector... so its a pun, just like WIMPs). They saw two events in the signal region, not enough for them to claim a discovery, but it is tantalizing. The simultaneous seminars were held at Fermilab and SLAC, and video was streamed to the internet, so anyone who knew could watch (well, the servers sort of bogged down at the beginning of the broadcast, but that sorted out at some point).
The video stream is not yet available for replay on the Fermilab site, once it is I'll post it, Lauren Hsu gave the the one at Fermilab, Jodi Cooley at SLAC...
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 29, 2009 - 01:27pm PT
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I told ya this subject is finished.
We're all just dim light bulbs.
And the source of that power to light the bulb comes from the sun.
And the source of the sun is God almighty.
Just see how smart I am ..........
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 29, 2009 - 01:31pm PT
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actually, Werner, we're about 100 Watts of power generation... not too dim... if you could see infrared.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 29, 2009 - 01:33pm PT
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100 watts compared to the sun is very dim .........
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MH2
climber
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Dec 29, 2009 - 04:07pm PT
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Actually we range from about 4 watts to 400 depending on activity level.
On consciousness and soul
People have a little trouble with familiarizing themselves with consciousness. It isn't easy to take a brain apart and examine the workings.
However, you can look at an ant colony or beehive or termite mound and see more of what makes it behave the way it does. Take an individual social insect and watch what it does. Then watch groups of them working together. A recent study glued RFI tags onto the backs of 5,000 individual ants to study how a colony finds a good replacement location if it's home is destroyed. Although an individual ant doesn't visit all the possible new sites and make a decision on which is best, there are simple rules which allow for a reasonably wide search and selection based on what individual ants are capable of.
In the human case people have a feeling that there must be a homunculus, or soul, or seat of reason, or center in the brain where the big questions get asked and answered. Not necessarily so.
The Soul of the Primate was written by a South African zoologist in 1915. It wasn't published until much later but he is credited with being the father of primate studies. He also studied termites.
"One can separate a part of the termitary with a steel plate, in such a fashion that there is no communication between the termites on either side of it. Nevertheless the same curve of arch ... is built on either side of the plate."
"So the hope arises there is some purpose in nature, whose guiding principle is a psyche similar but infinitely more developed than the soul of the primate ... we are as little able to comprehend such an exalted psyche as the termite can comprehend man, who orders his own aims and purposes throughout life."
Die Siel van die Mier
Eugene Marais
1925
in English
The Soul of the White Ant
1937
Studying colony behavior can illustrate other problems of mind. The brain has to maintain balance between the advantages of fast learning from a single instance (which may not be typical) and slower learning by repeated trials. It's a question of what amount of inertia is good for the system. Forgetting can be seen as beneficial. Sounds a little like:
"Pheromone evaporation has also the advantage of avoiding the convergence to a locally optimal solution. If there were no evaporation at all, the paths chosen by the first ants would tend to be excessively attractive to the following ones. In that case, the exploration of the solution space would be constrained."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant_colony_optimization
So, although it doesn't seem at all likely that this is a dream, could it be a memory?
What if your memory was near-perfect?
Would you know the difference between recall and real?
There is a science fiction short story by David Brin in which a new drug gives people the ability to relive through memory their entire life in a couple week's objective time. Funny thing is, when they get to the part of their life where they took the drug they start reliving reliving their memories...
A real-life case of good recall is discussed in The Brain of Pooh: an essay on the limits of mind. This essay is a perceptive and good-hearted look at the human mental condition.
http://calteches.library.caltech.edu/288/1/pooh.pdf
"When we've mutated the genes and integrated the neurons and refined the biochemistry, our descendants will come to see us rather as we see Pooh: frail and slow in logic, weak in memory and pale in abstraction, but usually warm-hearted, generally compassionate, and on occasion possessed of innate common sense and uncommon perception."
Pooh and Piglet walk home together in the golden evening, and for a long time they were silent.
"When you wake in the morning, Pooh," said Piglet at last, "what's the first thing you say to yourself?
"What's for breakfast?" said Pooh. "What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?" said Piglet.
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 30, 2009 - 12:05pm PT
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WOW, it's New Years Eve! 2009 flew by, can you believe it?
Most people will have food and drink to usher in the New Year!
This makes me think of Jesus as bread and the wine;
Luke 22:19-20, And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.
As bread and wine gives live to the body, so the word of God gives life and joy to the soul!
Jesus is the good wine poured out for us.
Remember Him, and thank God for all His blessings!
As the New Year unfolds see how God is working in your life and the life of others!
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.1) By John MacArthur http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
Proverbs 20:1, Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler,
and whoever is led astray by it is not wise.
Song of Solomon 1:2, For your love is better than wine;
Isaiah 55:1, “Come, everyone who thirsts,
come to the waters;
and he who has no money,
come, buy and eat!
Come, buy wine and milk
without money and without price.
The Wedding at Cana
John 2:1-11, On the third day there was a wedding at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. Jesus also was invited to the wedding with his disciples. When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does this have to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
Now there were six stone water jars there for the Jewish rites of purification, each holding twenty or thirty gallons. Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water.” And they filled them up to the brim. And he said to them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the feast.” So they took it. When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom and said to him, “Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now.” This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory. And his disciples believed in him.
Matthew 27:34, they offered him wine to drink, mixed with gall, but when he tasted it, he would not drink it.
(Jesus is the sweet wine)
Ephesians 5:18, And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit
Matthew 28:16-20, Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
Deuteronomy 8:1-3, “The whole commandment that I command you today you shall be careful to do, that you may live and multiply, and go in and possess the land that the Lord swore to give to your fathers. And you shall remember the whole way that the Lord your God has led you these forty years in the wilderness, that he might humble you, testing you to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep his commandments or not. And he humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna, which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that he might make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord.
Matthew 4:4, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone,
but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”
Isaiah 55:2, Why do you spend your money for that which is not bread,
and your labor for that which does not satisfy?
Matthew 6:11, Give us this day our daily bread,
Institution of the Lord's Supper
Matthew 26:26-29, Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many or the forgiveness of sins. I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.”
I Am the Bread of Life
John 6:22-59, On the next day the crowd that remained on the other side of the sea saw that there had been only one boat there, and that Jesus had not entered the boat with his disciples, but that his disciples had gone away alone. Other boats from Tiberias came near the place where they had eaten the bread after the Lord had given thanks. So when the crowd saw that Jesus was not there, nor his disciples, they themselves got into the boats and went to Capernaum, seeking Jesus.
When they found him on the other side of the sea, they said to him, “Rabbi, when did you come here?” Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”
Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.
The Lord's Supper
1 Corinthians 11:17 But in the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse. For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part, for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. When you come together, it is not the Lord's supper that you eat. For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry, another gets drunk. What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not.
For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. But if we judged ourselves truly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.So then, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for one another— if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home—so that when you come together it will not be for judgment. About the other things I will give directions when I come.
Romans 5:8-11, but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
Ephesians 2:13, But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Colossians 1:20, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
1 Peter 1:19, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.
1 John 1:5-10, This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Revelation 5:9, And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
Revelation 7:14, They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Revelation 19:13, He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.
John 1:1-5, , In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 30, 2009 - 01:26pm PT
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Not that we want to continue in sin, but we still do, we can be Teflon Sinners, because of the Grace of God through Jesus!
What a brilliant way to duck personal accountability.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 30, 2009 - 01:42pm PT
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not quite new year's eve, I think we have another day...
...but since the calendar we use is, essentially, a catholic creation, perhaps there are those on this thread proposing a new calendar more in line with the "true" word of god....
...whatever that might be.
Werner, what calendar do you use?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 30, 2009 - 01:45pm PT
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Same one you use. Mine is in the lower right hand corner of my desktop.
It says the time and date. Today is "Wednesday December 30, 2009"
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 30, 2009 - 02:46pm PT
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"What a brilliant way to duck personal accountability."
Though I am forgiven now and want to do all that God requires, I know that on this side of Heaven, try as I may, I'm still going to fall short, very short, but I know that all my sins past, present, and future God will remember on more, what a blessing that is! I can't do it on my own...
Romans 8:37-39, No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Psalm 103 10-13, He does not deal with us according to our sins,
nor repay us according to our iniquities.
For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him;
**as far as the east is from the west,
so far does he remove our transgressions from us**.
As a father shows compassion to his children,
so the Lord shows compassion to those who fear him.
Jeremiah 31:34-37, And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
( Scientists read next part)
Thus says the Lord,
who gives the sun for light by day
and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar—
the Lord of hosts is his name:
“If this fixed order departs
from before me, declares the Lord,
then shall the offspring of Israel cease
from being a nation before me forever.”
Thus says the Lord:
“If the heavens above can be measured,
and the foundations of the earth below can be explored,
then I will cast off all the offspring of Israel
for all that they have done,
declares the Lord.”
The Law and Sin
Romans 7:7-25, What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
Life in the Spirit
Romans 8:1-11, There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
p.s. I'll take a day off to get back on time!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 30, 2009 - 02:51pm PT
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Gobee, new year's eve was on December 20th, so-called. Sorry you missed it.
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MH2
climber
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Dec 30, 2009 - 03:05pm PT
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Same one you use. Mine is in the lower right hand corner of my desktop.
This must be where I go wrong. Mine is in the lower left hand corner.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Dec 31, 2009 - 07:24am PT
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A belated Merry Christmas to all Supertopians and have a Great 2010
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 31, 2009 - 09:57am PT
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Isaiah 55:6-12
“Seek the Lord while he may be found;
call upon him while he is near;
let the wicked forsake his way,
and the unrighteous man his thoughts;
let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him,
and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
“For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven
and do not return there but water the earth,
making it bring forth and sprout,
giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,
so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.
“For you shall go out in joy
and be led forth in peace;
the mountains and the hills before you
shall break forth into singing,
and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
Blessed Are the Forgiven
A Maskil of David.
Psalms 32, Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven,
whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man against whom the Lord counts no iniquity,
and in whose spirit there is no deceit.
3 For when I kept silent, my bones wasted away
through my groaning all day long.
4 For day and night your hand was heavy upon me;
my strength was dried up as by the heat of summer. Selah
5 I acknowledged my sin to you,
and I did not cover my iniquity;
I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the Lord,”
and you forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah
6 Therefore let everyone who is godly
offer prayer to you at a time when you may be found;
surely in the rush of great waters,
they shall not reach him.
7 You are a hiding place for me;
you preserve me from trouble;
you surround me with shouts of deliverance. Selah
8 I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go;
I will counsel you with my eye upon you.
9 Be not like a horse or a mule, without understanding,
which must be curbed with bit and bridle,
or it will not stay near you.
10 Many are the sorrows of the wicked,
but steadfast love surrounds the one who trusts in the Lord.
11 Be glad in the Lord, and rejoice, O righteous,
and shout for joy, all you upright in heart!
Behold, the Lamb of God
John 1:29-34, The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.’ I myself did not know him, but for this purpose I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel.” And John bore witness: “I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.”
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 31, 2009 - 11:12am PT
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Last day of the supposed year!
Sorta funny because the calendar we use is flawed and has to use a cheat day every so often. Why would such an advanced society need such a blunt tool?
Cause many hundreds of years of practice are hard to let go of. Sort of like we can't bring ourselves to the metric system. I suppose makes us hang on to interpretations of religion that no longer serve and that seem detritus from the culture from the ancient past rather than revelations from Spirit.
Of course, at least some in the ancient past used calendars where the new year was marked by a real marker in the environment, like the Solstice.
Still, once a large group of humans agree on something and put some energy into it, it gets a power and life of its own. Such is the power of consciousness.
Hope that our artificial boundaries of 2009 go in peace and 2010 is uplifting.
Peace
Karl
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 31, 2009 - 02:07pm PT
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Karl, if you don't like this calendar, you can use another (see Calendrical Calculations by Dershowitz and Reingold, but you'll have to put on your mathematician's hat to appreciate it).
You can side step the details and just use this site if you want to know what the date is in other calendars.
The current calendar derives from Pope Gregory XIII by signed decree on 2/24/1582, which introduced the idea of leap years to fix the problem with the theretofore used Julian calendar of the Romans. Pegging the calendar to the solstice (the summer) shows a variation of not more than a day over 400 years using the Gregorian calendar... so not bad. It is December 18th 2009 on the Julian Calendar...
So for instance, it is the 2455196.5th Julian day, which is the number of days since the start of the Julian era beginning on Monday, January 1, 4713 B.C.E. ("Before the Common Era").
The modified Julian day (MJD) shortens that to the days since 00:00 UTC (Universal Time Coordinate) on November 17, 1858. The MJD is 55196.
We find that it is 14 Teveth, 5770 on the Hebrew calendar.
14 Muharram, 1431 on the Islamic calendar, which is a leap year in that calendar... the months begin with the first observation of the crescent moon, which is beautifully poetic in my mind.
It is 10 Dey, 1388 on the modern Persian calendar. The year begins on the day of the March equinox at the longitude 52º30' E. Though there appears to be some controversy over this definition.
In the Mayan long count: 12.19.16.17.14 Haab: 12 Kankin, Tzolkin: 10 Itx... Mayans believed that the universe is destroyed and recreated at the end a pictun cycle (7885 years), the current one ends on Columbus Day, Oct. 12, 4772... mark that date.
If you are Bahá'í then happy Bahá Sharaf, Vahháb of the Kull-i-Shay 1, Váhid 9 cycle. which is a mouth full.
The Indian civil Calendar has it as 10 Pausa, 1931.
On October 5, 1793 the French Republican calendar was adopted (before the metric system) and has the decaphilic zeal (no weeks... but three 10 day parts plus bits). It is the first day of décade II, Nivôse, 218 (the fourth month of the year, by the way).
For those who like international conspiracies, here is the ISO-8601 it is day 4 of week 53 of year 2009. This raises a whole sort of pet peeves of mine over date representations. Why, oh why do people in the USA have a mm/dd/yy representation? I've moved to yyyy-mm-dd representation, with the logical extension hh-mm-ss that lets things be organized in file lists so much more logically. Go figure, and you can shove your "national soverignty" crap.... at least I can operate in multiple coordinate systems, everyone should.
Maybe some of you geeks out there like Unix time() today 1262217600, the time in seconds since 00:00 UTC 1/1/1970.
Bill Gates cannot stay out of this stuff, either, so there are two Excel Serial Day numbers, one for the PC and one for the Mac... another example of how letting private enterprise is so much better than having some national standard...
Whatever day it is... we're past the solstice and into ever lengthening days for about 6 months...
the moon rises tonight, in Yosemite Valley at about 5:04pm pst with an azimuth of 60º but you won't see it until after 7:00pm if you're in the Valley... near full (about 97%) but waning.
Have a happy one, all...
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MH2
climber
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Dec 31, 2009 - 02:44pm PT
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The first digital watch I bought had a turnscrew to adjust the timing. After a few tries it got to where it seemed to keep near perfect time day after day. Then around this time of year when my wife's parents were visiting, I showed it off and it was a second fast! Her Dad explained that a leap second had been added to the year at midnight Dec 31. He also pointed out that for $20 you could get a better timepiece in 1977 than ships had used for navigation in WWII.
We now have a clock that checks the broadcast from that atomic clock in Colorado and resets as needed.
Enjoy your leap second, everyone!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 31, 2009 - 06:50pm PT
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I remember when;
Question: "What is the meaning of BC and AD (B.C. and A.D.)?"
Answer: It is commonly thought that BC stands for "before Christ" and AD stands for "after death." This is only half correct. How could the year 1 B.C. have been "before Christ" and 1 A.D. been "after death"? BC does stand for "before Christ." AD actually stands for the Latin phrase "anno domini" which means "in the year of our Lord." The B.C. / A.D. dating system is not taught in the Bible. It actually was not fully implemented and accepted until several centuries after Jesus' death.
It is interesting to note that the purpose of the BC / AD dating system was to make the birth of Jesus Christ the dividing point of world history. However, when the B.C. / A.D. system was being calculated, they actually made a mistake in pinpointing the year of Jesus' birth. Scholars later discovered that Jesus was actually born in around 4-6 BC, not 1 AD. That is not the crucial issue. The birth, life, ministry, death, and resurrection of Christ are the "turning points" in world history. It is fitting, therefore, that Jesus Christ is the separation of "old" and "new." BC was "before Christ" and since His birth, we have been living "in the year of our Lord." Philippians 2:10-11, "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
JT82
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Norton
Social climber
the Middle Class
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 31, 2009 - 07:06pm PT
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How old is the earth, Gobbee?
When did human primates first show up on this earth, Gobee?
"Ardi" is the nickname given to a shattered skeleton that an international team of scientists painstakingly excavated from the Ethiopian desert, analyzed over the course of 15 years, and declared Thursday to be a major breakthrough in the study of human origins. Ardi lived more than a million years before "Lucy," a much-celebrated, 3.2 million-year-old fossil of an early human progenitor found just 45 miles away.
If the scientists are correct, Ardi and her kind were the ancestors of our ancestors. She was a transitional figure, almost a hybrid -- a tree creature who could carry food in her arms as she explored the woodland floor on two legs.
The skeletal remnants of Ardi were recovered along with bones from at least 35 other members of a species that the scientists call Ardipithecus ramidus. Their arduous investigation had incited grumbling in a scientific community that had grown impatient to find out what exactly had been found in the silty clay of Ethiopia. The answers are dramatic, detailed in 11 papers published Thursday in the online edition of the journal Science and discussed in dual press conferences in Washington and Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.
The discovery of Ardi "further confirms that Ethiopia is the cradle of humankind," said Yohannes Haile-Selassie, the paleontologist who found the first two bones of Ardi in 1994.
Human origins is a field with high stakes and small bones, and the elaborate roll-out of the new research probably will trigger debate about the message contained in fossils so fragile they had to be excavated with dental picks and porcupine quills.
"It was a sort of a time capsule from 4.4. million years ago with contents that nobody had ever seen before," said Tim White, a University of California at Berkeley paleoanthropologist who led the Ardi research team. "We worked for years at opening that time capsule by collecting every shred of evidence that we could find."
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 31, 2009 - 07:10pm PT
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This raises a whole sort of pet peeves of mine over date representations. Why, oh why do people in the USA have a mm/dd/yy representation? I've moved to yyyy-mm-dd representation, with the logical extension hh-mm-ss that lets things be organized in file lists so much more logically. Most countries use the dd-mm-yy system, which is most logical - from smallest unit to largest. As always, the US has to be different, and confuse everyone else.
It is interesting that people in the US still mostly say the "Fourth of July", rather than "July Fourth".
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 31, 2009 - 07:26pm PT
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Gobee wrote
It is interesting to note that the purpose of the BC / AD dating system was to make the birth of Jesus Christ the dividing point of world history. However, when the B.C. / A.D. system was being calculated, they actually made a mistake in pinpointing the year of Jesus' birth. Scholars later discovered that Jesus was actually born in around 4-6 BC, not 1 AD. That is not the crucial issue. The birth, life, ministry, death, and resurrection of Christ are the "turning points" in world history.
There is no doubt that Jesus marked a turning point in History. From this issue of his impact on the calendar we can both recognize his importance and also the danger of thinking we can we can extract to much critical detail about history, science and even theology from scripture.
After all, Jesus was certainly not born on Christmas, and he wasn't born on year one either. He honored the Sabbath but never celebrated it on Sunday. If you believe all the prophecies of Jesus in the Bible, he didn't die on a Friday either.
Somethings belong to the heart but the mind wants something to chew on so we make stuff up.
Nice Post Ed. Time is relative in more than one way. Space is relative in other ways too.... the space that a country we know as "Spain" or "France" has been called a whole bunch of other things during history.
Change....it's the law!
Peace
Karl
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 31, 2009 - 08:51pm PT
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Then again, I can't help suspecting that the fifteen minutes of the construct called Jesus, is about used up.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 31, 2009 - 09:08pm PT
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Some world religions, such as Zoroastrianism, have come and gone. Evolve or die
Jesus says the tree is known by it's fruits. If Christian can shine their love and light, they will prosper. IF they sound like judgmental haters, they will fade, like the militant islamists, into the previous millennium
Peace
Karl
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Happy New Year from Japan where it is now the Year of the Tiger and soon to be (on January 7) Heisei 22. As with many things, the Japanese calendar is a unique blend of East and West. They changed their New Year from the lunar New Year of the rest of East Asia in the 1850's, when they started to modernize and imitate the West. However, the custom of the 12 year zodiac cycle stayed with them so they count the change of animal sign from Jan 1 whereas everyone else in Asia says it happens sometime in February.
One interesting thing they did when they reverted to Jan 1, is decide to keep the year according to the reign of the emperor. Hence it is January 1, year of the tiger, in the reign of Heisei (maintaining peace) 21. It will become Heisei 22 on January 7, the death date of the previous emperor, Hirohito. It drives me crazy when I shop for a used car here to try to figure out how old it is according to the emperor system. Of course this is the land of streets with no names and street numbers in the order in which the buildings were built, rather than any rational numerical order.
It is also the land of the longest living people and an aging population with a pension system in serious trouble, which still forces people to retire at age 60, because that was traditionally considered old age - 5 cycles of the 12 zodiac animals.
On the American side of the house where I do flowers every week for two Marine Corps chapels, I did Christmas arrangements at the usual time, and then Japanese New Year's arrangements, and now this coming week I have to do more Christmas arrangements for the Orthodox chapel since their current Russian Orthodox priest follows the original Julian calendar of the church. Since Pope Gregory didn't consult the Orthodox on calendar changes, the old order Orthodox (Russian mostly) stick with the original. The date of Western and Orthodox Easter are calculated differently also (the first Sunday after Passover vs first Sunday after the full moon following the spring equinox). This year by chance they fall on the same date which means a lot more work for me.
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Fig's Lady
Social climber
Bishop, CA
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Happiest of this new year to all.
Feeling a bit prosaic, I sometimes want to jump in these threads.
So here it goes.
We are dating origin of human species based on bone. What if there were such a cataclysmic event that incinerated bone..... and why are there no findings in the ocean, other than pirates and such??
Again Happy New Year
from Owen's Valley
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Fig's Lady
Social climber
Bishop, CA
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Way to go Jan. Try not to think too much.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Ed-
What's not metaphysical about this statement from the article I cited?
Although we might well solve part of the dark matter conundrum in the coming years, the larger mystery winds out in front of us like a train snaking into the fog.
We may never know where we came from. We will probably never find that cosmic connection to our lost royalty. Someday I will visit Norway and look up those ancestors. They died not knowing the fate of the universe, and so will I, but maybe that’s all right.
Steven Weinberg, a University of Texas physicist and Nobel Prize winner, once wrote in his 1977 book “The First Three Minutes”: “The more the universe seems comprehensible, the more it also seems pointless.” Dr. Weinberg has been explaining that statement ever since. He went on to say that it is by how we live and love and, yes, do science, that the universe warms up and acquires meaning.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Steve Weinberg has written enough in the popular literature to be known as notoriously skeptical of not only religious, spiritual and mystical explanations of reality, but also about philosophical discussions regarding such things. So my reading of that passage drains out all such interpretations. It would be most direct to ask Weinberg himself what he means, but I will interpret that from what I understand of his position.
The more we learn about the universe, the more it becomes evident that there is no deeper meaning then the one we originate inside of ourselves.
That's it. Nothing mystical about that at all. There is no physical force which binding our conciousnesses together in some commonality, there is no supernatural power infusing purpose and meaning and dispensing justice. There is nothing but what we have seen, or what we will see, with ever sharpening empirical methods and insightful physical theories.
You can read that statement a lot of different ways and extract out many divergent meanings. You can deconstruct that passage and infer some very strange things. All of this has been criticized by Weinberg in the past, essentially stating that the lack of rigor and precision that characterizes language makes it unsuitable as a vehicle for producing knowledge, and therefore, fields of study which use language as its primary tool will not produce knowledge.
But you'd have to ask him yourself what he actually meant.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"Happy New Year" Benchwarmers come out and plaaaeeeaaay!
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.2) By John MacArthur
http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
MtPacifico78
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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the struggle between science and religion
is reflected in the struggle between "the word" and "the number"
some mathematicians say that the existence of mathematics proves there is a god
others say the proof is not rigorous
but that it is a conjecture, and not a well supported one
though the mystery of why there is a mathematics
is unanswered
my guess is that the physicists will need to weigh in
because they know how to connect the numbers to the universe
and they translate that into words
but the time of logos is long past
the time when we could idle next to the pond
in rapture of our reflection
projected into the heavens and beyond
belong to a bygone day
us in our youth
before awareness
of all that there is
and realization
of all that there is not
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WBraun
climber
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my guess is that the physicists will need to weigh in
because they know how to connect the numbers to the universe
and they translate that into words
This is the ascending process of trying to gain knowledge.
They will fall into the black hole.
The descending knowledge is superior.
If I don't know algebra I will ask Ed since he's in the superior position at that in relation to me. (crude example)
Not that I guess .....
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Ed said,
"but the time of logos is long past
the time when we could idle next to the pond
in rapture of our reflection
projected into the heavens and beyond
belong to a bygone day
us in our youth
before awareness
of all that there is
and realization
of all that there is not"
That made me think, that a child thinks he is the center of his world, and that's cute in children, I get bored with that,
I want to see God in the reflection, and the word says that Jesus is the exact representation of God, a loving God!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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and I will try to teach Werner mathematics, so he can ascend on his own, because I cannot climb the climb for him, he has to learn how to climb if he wants to get out of it something of value.
Maybe once he does that, he will ascend a bit higher, or a bit harder, and come back and tell me how he did it, so that I might also go that way
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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YAH, Werner better learn how to climb!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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if there is descendent truth, the rock provides it...
we get up it, or we don't
nothing more, nothing less
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Thanks Ed!
It definitely helps to have someone more familiar with the author's original intent. Once again we have run into the problem of words and language on the one hand and perceptions on the other. I am reminded of authors or artists who read the critics discussions of what their works mean and are amazed as they never intended any such thing, yet in retrospect, have to admire the critic for finding a meaning that was hidden even to themselves!
Physicists however, seem less appreciative of the reader's hidden meaning. Perhaps then that will be their professional cross to bear (other than lack of funding) - that their findings are constantly misinterpreted by artsy, poetic, philosophical types who use them for their own ends.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Meanwhile, has anyone read Maria Coffey's latest book, Explorers of the Infinite: The Secret Spiritual Lives of Extreme Athletes? I got the book for Christmas. I've just started it and was amazed to read that Royal had a spiritual conversion and joined a church.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Reminds me of another book called "Bone Games" that delves into the physiology of the "athletic high," especially in alpine pursuits.
Oh, and, uh,
Happy New Year Ardi!
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MH2
climber
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"Ardi" is the nickname given to a shattered skeleton that an international team of scientists painstakingly excavated from the Ethiopian desert, analyzed over the course of 15 years, and declared Thursday to be a major breakthrough in the study of human origins. Ardi lived more than a million years before "Lucy," a much-celebrated, 3.2 million-year-old fossil of an early human progenitor found just 45 miles away.
And so Norton spoke,
and there was an Original Post
and Norton conceived of the Creationists fleeing to the dugout
but Norton's followers strayed from his teachings
and the Creationists called out in tender irony from the dugout,
"Look, Norton, at what you yourself have created."
and Norton looked on in dismay,
and contemplated calling down the waters over the heads of his errant flock
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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that's one way to look at it MH2
another way is that the Creationists have abandoned an untenable position and have changed the subject to something way more complex with less solid science backing
Werner keeps projecting his designer aspirations on the universe
Gobee just turns up the cut-and-paste style argument in attempt to win by exhausting his opponents
and the mystical side just keeps saying that since you cann't understand it with science now, you can't understand it, therefore it must be true that there is something else... a dubious logical approach
still others say it is self evident, and if you don't agree, then you are either a dishonest or you are an idiot
but certainly we are talking about two entirely different things which are immiscible
one is the world as it presents itself to our senses, and the extensions of those senses... the material, the measurable
and the other is the existence of the interior world which is the product of our consciousness, and its extension
Both of these worlds exist... we run into trouble insisting that somehow, both of these worlds must be understandable in the same way, by the same terms, with the same rules.
To me this is not a mystical statement in the way the mystics would like it to be... nor is it a religious statement, nor a philosophical one.
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Norton
Social climber
the Middle Class
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 1, 2010 - 05:38pm PT
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Nah, the Creationists have been taking called strikes since the publication
of The Origin Of The Species, over 150 years ago.
They come up to the plate, never connect, and run back to the dugout.
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MH2
climber
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but certainly we are talking about two entirely different things which are immiscible
one is the world as it presents itself to our senses, and the extensions of those senses... the material, the measurable
and the other is the existence of the interior world which is the product of our consciousness, and its extension
What makes you sure they are so different, to the point of being immiscible?
begin quote
FRANK: But how could you have access to my private mental states?
EPISTEMOLOGIST: Private mental states? Metaphysical hogwash! Look, I am a practical epistemologist. Metaphysical problems about mind versus matter arise only from epistemological confusions. Epistemology is the true foundation of philosophy, but the trouble with all past epistemologists is that they have been using wholly theoretical methods, and much of their discussion degenerates into mere word games. While other epistemologists have been solemnly arguing such questions as whether a man can be wrong when he asserts that he believes such and such, I have discovered how to settle such questions experimentally.
end quote
from 5000 BC and Other Philosophical Fantasies
Raymond Smullyan
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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One thing this thread has helped me to do, is understand my own positions from the point of view of others. Ironically, before this thread, I had just gone through a period of thinking that maybe all of the interior experiences I have had were just self induced biochemical or electrical reactions. Thus I had already started reading to try to figure out which chemicals and which electrical paths. This was provoked by a student showing me a diagram of the serotonin circuit in the brain which clearly resembles what the Buddhists and Hindus call the thousand petaled lotus or 7th chakra.
Thanks to this thread, I have done a lot more reading on the research done so far, to try to connect the mystical and electro-biochemical world of the brain. Clearly that is something scientists and mystics can collaborate on and so many people are interested, it's developing into a whole new field of research. In as much as researchers have now established that prayer and meditation when done over a long period of time, permanently alter the circuitry and chemistry, sometimes even the size, of certain areas of the brain, the least we can say about it, is that spiritually developed techniques for changing the brain represent a form of culture- induced biological evolution.
In addition to focussing my mind and getting biochemical-electrical results however, I have experienced psychic phenomenon, synchronicity, physical and spiritual healings etc. which, if I produced them all myself, indicates that the brain has 100 times more power than we imagine. Since many of them have been related to helping other human beings or animals on occasion, and have helped me to be a better, happier person, and probably saved my life on at least one occasion, then it seems they should be of general interest and use as well, which is what all the mystical traditions also teach.
Let us remember however, that neurophysiologists denied that the autonomic nervous system could be altered by human will, until yogis and meditation masters proved in labs (MIT was at the forefront) that it could be done. Now it is taken as routine that almost everyone can alter their temperature and blood pressure etc. after we relabeled it as bio feedback. It was not scientists who led the way to these new therapeutic techniques however, rather it was their wish to discredit the spiritual people, which produced the breakthrough.
Acupuncture is a field that is awaiting a similar paradigm shift. Western practitioners first denied its efficacy, then were forced to admit it works better than narcotics in some cases and can be used as an anesthetic. They still don't know how it works however, because they insist on attaching it to something physical but can't find the connection with any known system of blood, lymph, nerves etc.
Of course the Chinese practitioners keep telling them that it works through the energy body, the electro-magnetic field around the human body and that until they understand this, they will never understand the underlying mechanism. The Russians produced Kirlian photography which demonstrates this energy field, but still science is reluctant to accept it because it is non physical. Of course auras and halos have been known to religious/spiritual people for a long time.
Perhaps a better understanding of the human brain and body is all that the mystical traditions will provide. Perhaps spiritual disciplines apply only to life forms on this earth and do not extend beyond our biosphere. Perhaps also as current science maintains, it is an untenable leap to extend any of these findings to the cosmos. For sure, the answers to the cosmic questions will not be solved in our lifetime.
Meanwhile, scientists have faith that the cosmic explanation is material and mystics have faith that the underlying substratum is mental and in that sense, although I hate to admit it, as the intuitional, mystical, right brain always searches for unity, there do seem to be irreconcilable differences at this point in history.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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That's a wonderful post Jan, full of insight and truth. I might take some exception to the last paragraph where you write
Meanwhile, scientists have faith that the cosmic explanation is material and mystics have faith that the underlying substratum is mental and in that sense, although I hate to admit it, as the intuitional, mystical, right brain always searches for unity, there do seem to be irreconcilable differences at this point in history.
I don't think the differences are irreconcilable, we just haven't made a serious bid to reconcile them. Maybe we're just not quite ready.
After all, this "Material" that science believes forms the universe is pretty dang etherial even by their definitions. Science considers material to be made of vibrating energy that is mostly empty space. They consider most of the universe to be packed with dark matter and energy that we know almost nothing about? Who is really to say where our scientific trip down the rabbit hole will lead?
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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As sunlight maintains the entire universe, so the light of the soul maintains this material body.
As soon as the spirit soul is out of this material body, the body begins to decompose; therefore it is the spirit soul which maintains this body.
The body itself is unimportant.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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haven't read the full thread, but with the philosophical bent of the last posts, it reminded me of Searle...
paraphrased...
the mind body problem is just a stomach digestion problem.
the mind is what the brain does. digestion is what the stomach does.
and for my part binary understanding yields false dichotomies almost invariably due to complexity.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Physics of the Impossible: A Scientific Exploration into the World of Phasers, Force Fields, Teleportation, and Time Travel.
~ Michio Kaku
In this latest effort to popularize the sciences, City University of New York professor and media star Kaku (Hyperspace) ponders topics that many people regard as impossible, ranging from psychokinesis and telepathy to time travel and teleportation.
His Class I impossibilities include force fields, telepathy and antiuniverses, which don't violate the known laws of science and may become realities in the next century.
Those in Class II await realization farther in the future and include faster-than-light travel and discovery of parallel universes.
Kaku discusses only perpetual motion machines and precognition in Class III, things that aren't possible according to our current understanding of science.
He explains how what many consider to be flights of fancy are being made tangible by recent scientific discoveries ranging from rudimentary advances in teleportation to the creation of small quantities of antimatter and transmissions faster than the speed of light.
http://www.amazon.com/Hyperspace-Scientific-Odyssey-Parallel-Universes/dp/0385477058/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262414809&sr=1-3
The most amazing part of all this to me , is that he classifies precognition as a Class III impossibility - "things that aren't possible according to our current understanding of science".
when I've experienced it many times as have others I know. Either he's wrong or there may be parallel physical and spiritual laws existing simultaneously in this universe.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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The simple message is, that Jesus came in the flesh, who gave himself for our sins, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, for the righteous shall live by faith. For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
2 John 1:5-7, not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but the one we have had from the beginning—that we love one another. And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it. For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.
Galatians 1:3-5, Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
Justified by Faith
Galatians 2:17-21,We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
The Righteous Shall Live by Faith
Galatians 3:10-14, For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
Galatians 3:21-2, Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Galatians 3:26-29, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
Galatians 4:8-11, Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more? You observe days and months and seasons and years! I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.
Christ Has Set Us Free
Galatians 5:1-6, For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
Galatians 5:13-15 For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.
Walk by the Spirit
Galatians 5:16-26, But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
Galatians 6:1-5, Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor. For each will have to bear his own load
It's a Vertical World, AFTER ALL (from Day 6, from the beginning)
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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God's curse, eh?
Nice trick. Always keep 'em guessing.
"Toward a critique of the law-book of Manu.-- The whole book is founded on the holy lie. Was the well-being of mankind the inspiration of this system? Was this species of man, who believes in the interestedness of every action, interested or not in imposing this system? To improve mankind--how is this intention inspired? Where is the concept of improvement derived from?
We find a species of man, the priestly, which feels itself to be the norm, the high point and the supreme expression of the type man: this species derives the concept "improvement" from itself. It believes in its own superiority, it wills itself to be superior in fact: the origin of the holy lie is the will to power." Nietzsche
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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or, Jan, what you experienced wasn't what you thought you experienced...
this is not a condescending statement, but one based on experience as an experimental physicist trying to understand just what is being observed in an experiment. We learn early in our careers that we must understand in excruciating detail how our experimental apparatus works, what parts of the observation attributable to the apparatus, and what parts to nature.
So we perform a number of tests in the observation, as well as build a model of how the apparatus works. Most time is spent, in fact, understanding this aspect of the observation than anything else.
Care is also given to make sure the assumptions that were made in building the apparatus, and in analyzing the data coming from the apparatus, do not prejudice our conclusions about what actually happened in nature.
Almost none of this is done in reports of human witness. It doesn't even occur to us that the way we sense the universe, the actual measurements that we make with our senses, are limited in resolution, dynamic range and lack spatial and temporal continuity. We actually perceive all these attributes, but that perception is a part of our "conscious awareness" of reality, based on "models" of how the universe works in a very practical manner as learned by experience.
Common experiences like deja vu seem very strange because they seem to violate the continuity of time, which is a learned attribute of nature. However, the brain doesn't necessarily work in a time-continuous manner. We learn to stitch together time sequence from the many sensory inputs, and the processing of those inputs, into something that is perceived as a continuum. Occasionally we encounter situations where this doesn't happen and we have this odd experience of something happening after we perceive it happening...
Similarly, few people have a good idea of how memory actually happens, what is the mechanism for producing memory, how does the associative process happen, etc, and how do we recall memories. These processes are very important to the issues you raise regarding experiences of precognition. To make a flip remark, you can't study precognition until you understand cognition... which we don't fully understand yet. This is before you can make any meaningful observation about reality.
However, it appears that anyone who cognates assumes they are experts on cognition... yet upon examination of human witness accounts vs. objective measures of the same phenomena, all of the limitations of human sensory and cognitive processes are observed. While these abilities have been essential for the success of humans in the fitness landscape presented to them on earth for the last few million years, it has definite limitations when pushed beyond those rather immediate needs.
Experimental science rests on the veracity of observations that are made of nature. Experimental scientists have developed methodologies to recognize the difference between a "detector artifact" and an actual observation of nature... and to quantify the limitations of those observations. This skepticism is a powerful tool to understanding, and does not seem to exist in most discussions of personal experience.
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roadman
climber
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As my first comment of 2010, sitting here sipping coffee with my feet up, in my pink heart short short bathrobe with the name Darwin embroidered on it, I'd like to say: you guys rock!!!!
Peace and safety to all in 2010 and beyond
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MH2
climber
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"Few persons care to study logic, because everybody conceives himself to be proficient enough in the art of reasoning already. But I observe that this satisfaction is limited to one's own ratiocination, and does not extend to that of other men.
The object of reasoning is to find out, from the consideration of what we already know, something else which we do not know."
The Fixation of Belief
Charles Saunders Peirce
Popular Science Monthly
November 1877
http://www.peirce.org/writings/p107.html
But Peirce, who was a famously weird guy, was also very respectful, or at least envious, of belief that seemed to come out of nowhere, and encouraged people to seek it:
"One who sits down with the purpose of becoming convinced of the truth of religion is plainly not inquiring in scientific singleness of heart, and must always suspect himself of reasoning unfairly. So he can never attain the entirety even of a physicist's belief in electrons, although this is avowedly but provisional. But let religious meditation be allowed to grow up spontaneously out of Pure Play without any breach of continuity, and the Muser will retain the perfect candour proper to Musement.
So, continuing the counsels that had been asked of me, I should say, 'Enter your skiff of Musement, push off into the lake of thought, and leave the breath of heaven to swell your sail. With your eyes open, awake to what is about or within you, and open conversation with yourself; for such is all meditation.'"
A Neglected Argument for the Reality of God
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/A_Neglected_Argument_for_the_Reality_of_God
The Experimental Epistemologist begins to run into trouble:
FRANK: My goodness, do you mean to say that you can't even tell me what you believe without consulting the machine?
EPISTEMOLOGIST: Of course not.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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This is cool, what a crimper?
This hooks into the nerves surgically.
Their working on next arm now.
I'll be back for that one!
Also their working on eyes, ears, legs, and skin!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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We have more money per capita and a better military at our disposal, including weapons I'm not allowed to mention. At least while the US government, and co-religionists in the US, keep sending money.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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If nothing else, Ed on the one side and Karl and I on the other, have demonstrated the functional differences between the two sides of the bicameral brain. Nobody can read this thread and claim that they don't see the difference between the two modes of thinking. So that much (and actually much more) has been accomplished. Thanks to Ed's persistently logical questions and comments, I know I have been forced to rethink a lot of things and differentiate in my own head at least, a lot of categories that were previously more vague than they currently are.
I understand the frustration of a scientist when confronted with phenomena that can't be reproduced on demand. I also understand why, according to current scientific rules, it therefore has to be disregarded.Of course in their personal lives, scientists violate their own discipline- imposed rules all the time. What scientist will say, that you have to understand every single aspect of human sexuality before engaging in sex? Or falling in love, or listening to music, or climbing rocks? So I think if I said that dabbling in mysticism was one of my several hobbies, that would probably be ok. I sense that science gets really uncomfortable only when claims are made about the nature of things.
Believe me, those of us who experience such phenomena from time to time are also frustrated that we can't reproduce it on demand.The only co-relation I've been able to make so far is that the more I meditate and do other spiritual practices, the more frequently episodes of precognition and other such phenomenon happen. Even then at my lowly level, it's not too often.
I contributed a few tidbits to Karl's "Trippy Juju" thread about some of these experiences but here's another one involving precognition. If anyone can figure out a scientific explanation, I'm certainly open to hearing it.
Example: I am driving home from work at midnight. I live on a hill with a driveway that is perpendicular to a steep and narrow road and requires a sharp turn to enter without hitting the concrete wall on either side. Normally, I drive up the road fairly quickly at that time of night and swing into the driveway in one swoop. This time about two blocks from my home, I had an interior picture (where inside the mind such images are formed I have no idea) of a black and white cat lying sound asleep in my driveway, curled up in a ball.
I thought to myself, I better drive slowly and pause before swinging into the driveway, or I will run over it. Sure enough, when I got to my driveway, there was the cat exactly as I had pictured, sound asleep. I had to rev the engine and blink the lights to wake it up. Slowly it got up and stretched and wandered off. I had never seen it before and I never saw it again at my house.
So what explains that? I have no idea, and that's just the most mundane example I could think of. It definitely was not a memory of a cat that I had ever seen before, and I had not indulged in drugs or alcohol, and wasn't particularly tired when it happened.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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The reason science doesn't try to explain those kinds of experiences is because they are not reproducible. If they happened every day, or could be willed to happen, there would be something to work with, but in most cases they are random, entirely unexpected and therefore unexplainable. As to what higher power might be running such a show, the question arises as to its intent. That same night dozens of other critters became road kill with no rhyme or reason. Most of the spititual teachings say that these sorts of things are side effects of the "real" path we're supposed to be on. The whole white magic/black magic dichotomy comes into play, and the idea is generally to just let them pass without getting too curious, lest we fall into the trap of trying to impose our will on the transcendent and such.
Certainly though, weird things do happen.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Cintune-
Well put from both a scientific and spiritual point of view. In fact I decided some years ago that my experiences were getting way ahead of my wisdom and I cut back on meditating and focussed more on karma yoga - service to others.
Of course, one of the things I have often pondered along these lines is why I had no precognition of my own auto accident. I do know that I was tired, hungry, and mad about having to get out of bed on less than eight hours' sleep to attend an unnecessary faculty meeting. I was definitely out of sorts and not in the flow that morning.
Since I was hit from behind by a guy having an epileptic seizure with his foot stuck on the gas pedal, doing 120 km an hour, it would have had to be a very explicit instruction to move into the oncoming traffic lane because he wasn't going to pass me as I would have assumed. If I was sent that warning, I certainly missed it and live now with a screwed up neck every day. So it isn't just the scientists who are frustrated at the lack of predictability of such phenomena.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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True, if we could actually harness these sorts of things life would be much easier. Castenada has some insight into this, but my favorite quote along those lines comes from the science fiction novel Lord of Light by Roger Zelazny. It's a complicated and surreal story about a team of interplanetary colonists who take on the personas of various Vedic deities and get involved in a convoluted power struggle, but in the middle of it is this gem:
To define is to lose. The essence of all things is the Nameless. The Nameless is unknowable, mightier even than Brahma. Things pass, but the essence remains. You sit, therefore, in the midst of a dream.
Essence dreams it a dream of form. Forms pass, but the essence remains, dreaming new dreams. Man names these dreams and thinks to have captured the essence, not knowing that he invokes the unreal. These stones, these walls, these bodies you see seated about you are poppies and water and the sun. They are the dreams of the Nameless. They are fire, if you like.
Occasionally, there may come a dreamer who is aware that he is dreaming. He may control something of the dream-stuff, bending it to his will, or he may awaken into greater self-knowledge. If he chooses the path of self-knowledge, his glory is great and he shall be for all ages like unto a star. If he chooses instead the way of the Tantras, combining Samsara and Nirvana, comprehending the world and continuing to live in it, this one is mighty among dreamers. He may be mighty for good or for ill, as we look upon him - though these terms too, are meaningless, outside of the namings of Samsara.
To dwell within Samsara, however, is to be subject to the works of those who are mighty among dreamers. If they be mighty for good, it is a golden time. If they be mighty for ill, it is a time of darkness. The dream may turn to nightmare.
It is written that to live is to suffer. This is so, say the sages, for man must work off his burden of Karma if he is to achieve enlightenment. For this reason, say the sages, what does it profit a man to struggle within a dream against that which is his lot, which is the path he must follow to attain liberation? In the light of eternal values, say the sages, the suffering is as nothing; in the terms of Samsara, say the sages, it leads to that which is good. What justification, then, has a man to struggle against those who be mighty for ill?....
The answer, the justification, is the same for men as it is for gods. Good or ill, say the sages, mean nothing for they are of Samsara. Agree with the sages, who have taught our people for as far as the memory of man may reach. Agree, but consider also a thing of which the sages do not speak. This thing is "beauty," which is a word - but look behind the word and consider the Way of the Nameless. And what is the way of the Nameless? It is the Way of Dream. And why does the Nameless dream? This thing is not known to any dweller within Samsara. So ask, rather, what does the Nameless dream?
The Nameless, of which we are all a part, does dream form. And what is the highest attribute any form may possess? It is beauty. The Nameless, then, is an artist. The problem, therefore, is not one of good or evil, but one of aesthetics. To struggle against those who are mighty among dreamers and are mighty for ill, or ugliness, is not to struggle for that which the sages have taught us to be meaningless in terms of Samsara or Nirvana, but rather it is to struggle for the symmetrical dreaming of a dream, in terms of the rhythm and the point, the balance and the antithesis which will make it a thing of beauty. Of this, the sages say nothing. This truth is so simple that they have obviously overlooked it....
To struggle against the dreamers who dream ugliness, be they men or gods, cannot but be the will of the Nameless. This struggle will also bear suffering, and so one's karmic burden will be lightened thereby, just as it would be by enduring the ugliness; but this suffering is productive of a higher end in the light of the eternal values of which the sages so often speak......
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MH2
climber
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"The great pleasure and feeling in my right brain is more than my left brain can find the words to tell you."
Roger Sperry
But, both halves occupy the same body and manage to cooperate pretty well most of the time, no?
As a guess, what makes science and religion meaningful to people comes from the same source: a sense of wonder at nature and appreciation for its beauty. Scientists often have no trouble combining scientific inquiry with religious conviction, or even with crackpot notions.
Although Spock may be humourless and unemotional, I can't think of too many actual people of my acquaintance, scientist or not, who resemble that description in the least.
The goal of science is not to explain everything, just parts of everything. Even cosmology is just a part of everything.
Jan's mystical experiences should be cherished, the same way a great friendship or sunset is.
And thanks, cintune, for reminding me that I'm not completely ignorant of things Vedic, if that's what Lord of Light was about.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there jan, say... as to your accident and then the cat situation... it really does touch our heart as to how there seems no sense, rhyme or reason...
i've had such things, too... wonderful help and warnings for one thing, though not the others...
still, it feels good... as you know, due to the cat...
so what i always hold near to my heart is this:
there is more going on behind the scenes as to these issues that have affected our life... somehow, we were to play a part in it.. even if never seen.. who knows why that cat was somehow very speical in the "behind the scenes" .. .some times years later, we see, and are very very shocked...
then--as to the car accident, we sure wish to the good lord that all could have been well... :(
yet, even here, one just does not know--behind the scenes are working, yet again... perhaps you inner man, was trusted to go through this, for reaons that we may never see here..
i had a bad fall due to the careless of a lady, in her home... an umarked drop... i always wonderered why that had to be, when so many other times, things were seen ahead of time and as a perfect blessing, and i was kept well...
yet then, this:
though somehow, i think it must have been for some reaon in that lady's life... though i may never knew..
perhaps my fall, saved the life of her grandkids, as later, down the months to come, the area WAS blocked off..
better it had never happened... i never was set against to sue, and all that stuff, i just gave a big hug, when i crawled back up, in one piece... :O she was mighty scared, she thought i'd died! or was near to... :)
now, too, like you, i have a bad neck and must take care with it... it messed up my hip, too, and who knows that may be why my sciatic got so badly damgaged, later, at the cat-litter work...
"we will understand it better, by and by" as the ol' song goes...
:)
all that makes sense, is that we are a vast connection of a "quilted blanket of sorts" and our "sewing" may hurt at times and not make sense, but the beauty of the quilt will one day be seen:
and more so, if we are not angry against the "maker" of said quilt...
wow, this is very interesing, and:
i am so very very glad you are STILL here and part of this quilt...
and actually, we must be glad that the poor man is still here, too...
he should not have been driving that is fact... i sure he something will be changed in his life...
well, all for now...
god bless... :)
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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As a guess, what makes science and religion meaningful to people comes from the same source: a sense of wonder at nature and appreciation for its beauty.
Indeed!
I've also always liked the Buddhist visualization of being only one lotus in a crowded pond. Maybe the color for mystics is pink and for scientists yellow, but we all contribute to the beauty of the pond.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Neebee-
You're right, most of the time we don't know why certain things happen. In my case, the police suggested that if the other guy hadn't hit my car first, he would have probably gone through the 12 foot fence surrounding the American Air Force base and out into three lanes of high speed Japanese freeway traffic and into a huge international incident. Then again he had a young Japanese wife and a newborn baby. All things considered, the baby needed a father more than I needed a good neck!
The reason the guy was driving around with grand mal epilepsy however, is the result of the unscientific use of medicine. He told me he went to the Air Force clinic several times to complain of headaches and blackouts and was told it was stress and take motrin for it! Only after the accident did they test him for epilepsy. Of course he can not drive now and was discharged from the military with a disability. This too may have been a blessing at least to others, as his job in the Air Force was hazardous waste disposal!
Since they can't be tested and replicated all of these speculations are unscientific of course. However, they're also fun and interesting, part of the desire of human beings for meaning. Like you, however, I believe they are part of a bigger plan.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Bump to all the sons and daughters of are one and only, Almighty God and Father through our peerless and without equal and highly exalted and honored Lord Jesus Christ, whom belong the Glory Forever!
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.2) By John MacArthur
http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
Genesis 1:1, In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
Isaiah 40:28, Have you not known? Have you not heard?
The Lord is the everlasting God,
the Creator of the ends of the earth.
He does not faint or grow weary;
his understanding is unsearchable
Romans 1:25, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
Revelation 4:11, “Worthy are you, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they existed and were created.”
Genesis 1:31, And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.
The FA; Scott Balcom July 13,1985
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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to respond to Jan's post above... I must ask: why do you need any explanation about why these things happen? Why not just accept them as is and seek no deeper cause?
The way I have thought about it, over the 40 odd years of thinking on the issue, people who reject the "scientific approach" of understanding replace the entire physical cosmology with a spiritual cosmology whose complexity rivals any science has to offer. My point here is more than adequately made by going up in this thread to the discussion on angels.
My questions regarding "authority" have to do with what we can take as evidence of any of this happening at all, and how we can interpret it. It is more than a conjecture, by now most adequately demonstrated, that our own thoughts are a poor authoritative source. This has also been recognized through the ages in various disciplines, and handed down to us as parables in a variety of stories, some systematized into philosophies and religions, spiritual and mystical practices.
That the very "authority" of our mental state fails in very simple ways, for instance, drinking 4 or 5 Old E's and recalling the consequences... "just what was I thinking when I did that?!" Or a bit too much of the bud, or any manner of ways we have of inhibiting, heightening or otherwise altering our consciousness. These affects are directly attributable to changing the chemical environment of the brain.
One doesn't have to be trite, think of anesthetic , how does it happen that by the application of a small amount of chemical to the body, our perception of pain is so radically altered that it allows us to remain placid as our bodies are hacked into? The chemistry of "thought" is profound.
Now what of love? certainly scientists can enjoy human feelings as any human does, but where does this thing come from, and why does it have to come from some external place? How can we not suspect that this "love" comes from very basic desires to procreate? That it may have important hormonal initiation. And that it is such a powerful social disrupter that our traditions have put severe bounds on playing out the feelings of love, and of love lost... These feelings are so powerful as to have acquired a complex set of socially imposed qualities that make it, love, a very complex concept. The Bonobos have a quite different manner of expressing an utilizing "love" in their societies.
Understanding this is a complex matter and the matter is by no means settled. To answer Werner's "designer" question I would restate it as a challenge to come up with a detailed explanation of how, for example, a complex structure like an eye results from evolution. Of course I cannot give such a detailed explanation, yet, but the general outlines of the explanation is contained in the theory of evolution, and the fact that there has been a very long period of time on Earth for that evolution to occur. The evolutionary "experiment" is harsh and success is fleeting. When something doesn't work individuals and whole species go extinct. When something does work those individuals thrive and a successful species might persist for a few million years, then vanish either by continued evolution or by becoming extinct. Most become extinct... any disadvantaging attribute results in individual death, and if a special attribute, the death of the species.
In some ways, it is the natural manifestation of the scientific method. The only certainty is that something fails a test. If that thing passes the test, it persists for as long as it does not fail.
Back to our conscious state....
I do feel that thinking on this matter lends one to a self-congratulatory conclusion that we are somehow special, and that we (and I mean "humans" here) are somehow apart from nature. And it may be true that there are special qualities to our evolved state, but I do not think for a moment that these things need to have come from outside of us, but rather are a part of evolution and completely within the natural realm.
While one cannot answer the challenge of skeptics that a "mere" mechanical explanation could possibly be true, it is a less high mountain to climb than the one to "prove" that some supernatural universe exists that has the properties necessary to escape detection in the natural universe. The only strong case to be made for that is "believe your feelings and have faith," which happens to be anathema to any hardheaded scientist trying to wrest a bit of understanding out of nature.
The eventual physical theory of consciousness probably won't be that different in broad strokes from what we know today. The brain has evolved as the rest of the body, and retains parts inherited from past species. Our ability to process the sensory input, and to act on that input in an organized manner is specialized in a particular organ. It is likely that this is not exclusive, but that the entire organism retains some ability to "process" input and "act," making it very complex indeed. The bits and pieces of successful organizations meld together as the organisms evolve, and the tasks of generating action from stimulus are adapted for the special attributes of each new species.
These behaviors are "accreted" into layers, acting in part like individual behaviors but greatly modified by added behaviors. So involving a sort of "mental geography" to understand the moving and folding etc. of all these discrete structures. The evolutionary appropriation of these behaviors to "patch in" where needed, sometimes doing very different things than those structures' original job, makes it a messy situation.
Now put on top of that the very fact that the behavior that generates the curiosity to know how it works is a part of that same general behavior and there is no wonder that the issue is complex.
As is evident, I prefer the scientific way to try to get to the bottom of this interesting "problem" (where I use "problem" in the sense of a homework assignment, as is the tradition of the sciences) having thought deeply and practiced some of the other ways of trying to understand the inner domain. I have listened to my inner self, I have meditated, I have studied philosophies. I have discussed it with wise people.
My conclusion is that all this discussion is inadequate for producing real knowledge on the matter, and that only the scientific approach has a chance. It is pragmatic at least. It is a slow process and needs time to evolve, but it already has made great strides.
Think for a moment, when you call some service and get the computer asking you questions, and recognizing you verbal response. It drives me crazy, but it almost works, in fact, it works in most cases... I have friends from the past who have left research in the arcana of particles who now work on developing these sorts of "products" working at places like "Bell Lab" to make your lives convenient. Someday soon those voices on the other end of the phone will not be distinguishable between human and machine. And the first instances of the "Touring Test" will have been met in the general society.
If you will, the understanding of the "illusion of reality" will be the demonstration through the creation of that illusion. And just like any magical illusion, there will be no magic involved.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"My point here is more than adequately made by going up in this thread to the discussion on angels."
Manson, Jason, Freddy, and Michael Myres, have nothing on this tomb dweller! Yet he fell down before Jesus, and had compassion on him!
Jesus Heals a Man with a Demon
Mark 5:1-20, They came to the other side of the sea, to the country of the Gerasenes. And when Jesus had stepped out of the boat, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit. He lived among the tombs. And no one could bind him anymore, not even with a chain, for he had often been bound with shackles and chains, but he wrenched the chains apart, and he broke the shackles in pieces. No one had the strength to subdue him. Night and day among the tombs and on the mountains he was always crying out and cutting himself with stones. And when he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and fell down before him. And crying out with a loud voice, he said, “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me.” For he was saying to him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!” And Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” He replied, “My name is Legion, for we are many.” And he begged him earnestly not to send them out of the country. Now a great herd of pigs was feeding there on the hillside, and they begged him, saying, “Send us to the pigs; let us enter them.” So he gave them permission. And the unclean spirits came out, and entered the pigs, and the herd, numbering about two thousand, rushed down the steep bank into the sea and were drowned in the sea.
The herdsmen fled and told it in the city and in the country. And people came to see what it was that had happened. And they came to Jesus and saw the demon-possessed man, the one who had had the legion, sitting there, clothed and in his right mind, and they were afraid. And those who had seen it described to them what had happened to the demon-possessed man and to the pigs. And they began to beg Jesus to depart from their region. As he was getting into the boat, the man who had been possessed with demons begged him that he might be with him. And he did not permit him but said to him, “Go home to your friends and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you.” And he went away and began to proclaim in the Decapolis how much Jesus had done for him, and everyone marveled.
The Ministry of Reconciliation
2 Corinthians 5:11-21, Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade others. But what we are is known to God, and I hope it is known also to your conscience. We are not commending ourselves to you again but giving you cause to boast about us, so that you may be able to answer those who boast about outward appearance and not about what is in the heart. For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Ed wrote, regarding Jan's mystical story of precognition
to respond to Jan's post above... I must ask: why do you need any explanation about why these things happen? Why not just accept them as is and seek no deeper cause?
Gosh Ed, something happens that appears to contradict the material view of the world and consciousness that you have been offering and your solution is to suggest we don't look for an explanation? Just ignore events that go against our worldview and keep whistling in the dark? That's hardly a scientific approach. Think about what you are saying here
Peace
Karl
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 3, 2010 - 04:52pm PT
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Biblical Scholar Sets Date for THE Rapture!
Harold Camping lets out a hearty chuckle when he considers the people who believe the world will end in 2012.
"That date has not one stitch of biblical authority," Camping says from the Oakland office where he runs Family Radio, an evangelical station that reaches listeners around the world. "It's like a fairy tale."
The real date for the end of times, he says, is in 2011.
The Mayans and the recent Hollywood movie "2012" have put the apocalypse in the popular mind this year, but Camping has been at this business for a long time. And while Armageddon is pop science or big-screen entertainment to many, Camping has followers from the Bay Area to China.
Camping, 88, has scrutinized the Bible for almost 70 years and says he has developed a mathematical system to interpret prophecies hidden within the Good Book. One night a few years ago, Camping, a civil engineer by trade, crunched the numbers and was stunned at what he'd found: The world will end May 21, 2011.
This is not the first time Camping has made a bold prediction about Judgment Day.
On Sept. 6, 1994, dozens of Camping's believers gathered inside Alameda's Veterans Memorial Building to await the return of Christ, an event Camping had promised for two years. Followers dressed children in their Sunday best and held Bibles open-faced toward heaven.
But the world did not end. Camping allowed that he may have made a mathematical error. He spent the next decade running new calculations, as well as overseeing a media company that has grown significantly in size and reach.
"We are now translated into 48 languages and have been transmitting into China on an AM station without getting jammed once," Camping said. "How can that happen without God's mercy?"
His office is flanked by satellite dishes in the parking lot that transmit his talk show, "Open Forum." In the Bay Area, he's heard on 610 AM, KEAR. Camping says his company owns about 55 stations in the United States alone, and that his message arrives on every continent.
'I'm looking forward to it'
Employees at the Oakland office run printing presses that publish Camping's pamphlets and books, and some wear T-shirts that read, "May 21, 2011." They're happy to talk about the day they believe their souls will be retrieved by Christ.
"I'm looking forward to it," said Ted Solomon, 60, who started listening to Camping in 1997. He's worked at Family Radio since 2004, making sure international translators properly dictate Camping's sermons.
"This world may have had an attraction to me at one time," Solomon said. "But now it's definitely lost its appeal."
Camping is a frail-looking man, and his voice is low and deep, but it can rise to dramatic peaks with a preacher's flair.
As a young man, he owned an East Bay construction business but longed to work as a servant of God. So he hit the books.
"Because I was an engineer, I was very interested in the numbers," he said. "I'd wonder, 'Why did God put this number in, or that number in?' It was not a question of unbelief, it was a question of, 'There must be a reason for it.' "
Code-breaking phenomenon
Camping is not the only man to see truths in the Bible hidden in the numbers. In the late 1990s, a code-breaking phenomenon took off, led by "The Bible Code," written by former Washington Post journalist Michael Drosnin.
Drosnin developed a technique that revealed prophecies within the Bible's text. A handful of biblical scholars have supported Drosnin's theory, lending it an air of legitimacy, and just as many scholars have decried it as farce.
One of Drosnin's more well-known findings is that a meteor will strike Earth in 2012, the same year some people believe the Mayan calendar marks the end of times, and the same year the "2012" action movie surmised the Earth's crust will destabilize and kill most humans.
Meaning in numbers
By Camping's understanding, the Bible was dictated by God and every word and number carries a spiritual significance. He noticed that particular numbers appeared in the Bible at the same time particular themes are discussed.
The number 5, Camping concluded, equals "atonement." Ten is "completeness." Seventeen means "heaven." Camping patiently explained how he reached his conclusion for May 21, 2011.
"Christ hung on the cross April 1, 33 A.D.," he began. "Now go to April 1 of 2011 A.D., and that's 1,978 years."
Camping then multiplied 1,978 by 365.2422 days - the number of days in each solar year, not to be confused with a calendar year.
Next, Camping noted that April 1 to May 21 encompasses 51 days. Add 51 to the sum of previous multiplication total, and it equals 722,500.
Camping realized that (5 x 10 x 17) x (5 x 10 x 17) = 722,500.
Or put into words: (Atonement x Completeness x Heaven), squared.
"Five times 10 times 17 is telling you a story," Camping said. "It's the story from the time Christ made payment for your sins until you're completely saved.
"I tell ya, I just about fell off my chair when I realized that," Camping said.
James Kreuger, author of "Secrets of the Apocalypse - Revealed," has been studying the end of times for 40 years and is familiar with Camping's work. While Kreuger agrees that the rapture is indeed coming, he disputes Camping's method.
"For all his learning, Camping makes a classic beginner's mistake when he sets a date for Christ's return," Kreuger wrote in an e-mail. "Jesus himself said in Matthew 24:36, 'Of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my father only.' "
'It is going to happen'
Camping's believers will have none of it.
Rick LaCasse, who attended the September 1994 service in Alameda, said that 15 years later, his faith in Camping has only strengthened.
"Evidently, he was wrong," LaCasse allowed, "but this time it is going to happen. There was some doubt last time, but we didn't have any proofs. This time we do."
Would his opinion of Camping change if May 21, 2011, ended without incident?
"I can't even think like that," LaCasse said. "Everything is too positive right now. There's too little time to think like that."
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/01/01/BA8V1AV589.DTL&feed=rss.news#ixzz0baWoA6TL
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Harold Camping will never learn! (but there's always hope)
They don't mention that he's already written a book predicting the end of the world for 1994. You'd think a diet of crow would get old!
Peace
Karl
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Signs of the Close of the Age
Matthew 24:3-51, As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?” 4 And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. 5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
The Abomination of Desolation
15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The Lesson of the Fig Tree
32 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
No One Knows That Day and Hour
36 “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. 37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. 42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 47 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. 48 But if that wicked servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know 51 and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
The Parable of the Ten Virgins
Matthew 25:1-46, , “Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3 For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps. 5 As the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and slept. 6 But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ 7 Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’ 10 And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut. 11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’ 12 But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ 13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.
The Parable of the Talents
14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property. 15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
The Final Judgment
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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In the above post, it is quoted from scripture
34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
What were those things he predicted and did they happen within a generation?
Peace
Karl
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"What were those things he predicted and did they happen within a generation?"
Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple
Matthew 24:1-2 Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2 But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”
The Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed in that generation!
Matt. 24:2 Jesus' prophecy of the destruction of the temple was fulfilled in a.d. 70 when the Roman army under Titus destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. Not . . . one stone upon another may be intended as a metaphor for total destruction, or it may be understood as something that was literally fulfilled in the destruction of the temple building itself (but not the entire Temple Mount, some of which remains to this day).
Matt. 24:3 The disciples ask two questions: (1) when will these things be, and (2) what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age? Jesus' answer to these questions apparently intertwines prophecy concerning the destruction of Jerusalem and his second coming. The near event (the destruction of Jerusalem) serves as a symbol and foreshadowing of the more distant event (the second coming). The discourse can be divided into three parts: (1) a generally chronological description of events preceding Christ's return (vv. 4–31); (2) lessons on watching, waiting, and being prepared for Christ's return (24:36–25:30); and (3) a warning of judgment and a promise of reward at the time of Christ's return (25:31–46). Matthew's version of this question, with explicit mention of the second coming, is more developed and detailed than the question in the parallel passages in Mark 13:4 and Luke 21:7.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Gobee-
Beautiful photographs in that slide show and the message was good too - Very positive.
One of my interests has always been conversion stories. Visiting Christian congregations in Asia has an entirely different feel than in the U.S., precisely because they aren't burdened down by all the past history that we are. It is all new and fresh to them.
It is especially moving to visit churches in Nepal, where many of the Asian converts have spent time in jail for their beliefs. Before the restoration of democracy there, it was against the law to change the religion you were born into, as the king was claiming to be the incarnation of the god Vishnu and a large part of his political power came from Hindus maintaining that belief.
Likewise, it is very moving to visit Hindu and Buddhist retreat centers in America where highly educated people who have been turned off by western religions also find what they are looking for. They also abound in the energy of newly discovered meaning to life and answers that make sense. People who wouldn't be caught dead in a church or synagogue are happily fasting, doing prostrations, and meditating in an ashram, no problem. Indeed, in the Father's house there are many mansions
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Thanks Jan! That was by the church of Singapore!
Jerry Reed And Chet Atkins Jerrys Breakdown,
SWEET LOCKER!
Paul Gilbert, YAH!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Speaking of consciousness and the brain, as we always seem to do, here's an interesting discussion of different parts of the brain as they relate to emotions and will power and the incredible revival of Beck Weathers from his coma on Everest in 1996.
No new facts are given but the illustrations from brain scans are interesting, or at least I thought so. The narrator is Ken Kamler, one of the doctors on the expedition. The actual illustrations are in the middle of the talk.
The next time I need some will power, I am going to visualize stimulating my midbrain where it's supposed to originate and see if that helps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgqc2m7aBzs&NR=1
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MH2
climber
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Well, we may not get anywhere but I still like running in circles. Anyway, we are all just the skin of paint at the top of Gobee's tower of posts.
It was great to hear more from Ed:
That the very "authority" of our mental state fails in very simple ways, for instance, drinking 4 or 5 Old E's and recalling the consequences... "just what was I thinking when I did that?!" Or a bit too much of the bud, or any manner of ways we have of inhibiting, heightening or otherwise altering our consciousness. These affects are directly attributable to changing the chemical environment of the brain.
One doesn't have to be trite, think of anesthetic , how does it happen that by the application of a small amount of chemical to the body, our perception of pain is so radically altered that it allows us to remain placid as our bodies are hacked into? The chemistry of "thought" is profound.
Excellent points, but is it fair to doubt your mental abilities because of what can go wrong with them? What about when you're sober? Are you saying we can't trust our jugement then, either?
The discovery and characterization of the sodium channel did a lot to explain the nerve impulse and action of local anesthetics. In contrast,
general anesthesia has long been an outstanding mystery: how could a molecule as simple as nitrous oxide have such big effects on mental activity? Even nitrogen at high partial pressures can cause narcosis in divers. There is now good evidence that the action takes place through effects on receptors for GABAergic neurotransmitters:
http://www.general-anaesthesia.com/gabaasubtypes.html
If you want weirder ideas, though, you don't have to look far:
http://www.general-anaesthesia.com/anaesthetics.htm
Probably best not to do your pondering of consciousness under the influence, unless you like the smell of fried onions.
The Experimental Epistemologist steps in deeper:
FRANK: But most people when asked what they believe simply tell you. Why do you, to find out your beliefs, go through the fantastically roundabout process of directing a brain-reading machine to your own brain and then finding out what you believe on the basis of the machine's readings?
EPISTEMOLOGIST: What other scientific, objective way is there of finding out what I believe?
It has always puzzled me that so many religious people have taken it for granted that God favors those who believe in him. Isn't it possible that the actual God is a scientific God who has little patience with beliefs founded on faith rather than evidence?
Raymond Smullyan
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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heyt here jan, say.... i've been doing all kinds of stuff all night and finally came back here before i sign off...
oh my:
as to that car accident... say, also, the poor man would have felt sorrow beyond words if his accident had hurt so many more people... and he even had tried to do the right thing, too, by going for medical help before all this happened... and the wife and child... oh my...
in all this, as you said, aside from the neck pain---life was left to be there for so many.... oh my....
there was something mighty powerful going on that day, for sure...
say, jan, and i am so very glad you are still here... too...
who knows, perhaps the ol' neck pain will surprise you one day
and be gone... but---you will still have this fantastic story of life, left to share... :)
oh my... and wow... :)
well, happy good morning, or good night, to all...
:)
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Just checking in to see how Ed (and some others) is keeping up the good fight. Jeez, that last link is a doozy. I've never seen so much idiotic non-sense in one place. This is the stuff of great comedy.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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MH2 asks:
Excellent points, but is it fair to doubt your mental abilities because of what can go wrong with them? What about when you're sober? Are you saying we can't trust our jugement then, either?
I think that "trusting our judgement" obviously works in a statistical sense, an evolutionary sense. We all kid around about "Darwin award winners," those who exhibit such bad judgement that they should be removed from the "gene pool." So the natural end of poor judgement is to run a long term evolutionary experiment on the particular behavior. Our current consciousness is the end result of such an "experiment."
However, it is obvious that many of the situations our current judgement is called upon to judge are quite new, and very much not a part of the pressures of survival and procreation that got us here. So our adaptation to these new situations are using "old" capabilities in "new" ways. Judgement may not be the best even for sober minds.
My point about brain chemistry is that we are always under the influence, it's part of the way the brain works. When flushed with particular hormones judgement can be "clouded" and we might act in ways that are uncharacteristic of our "rational thought." Anyone not experience that? I don't think so.
"Trust, but verify" would be a good way to proceed, and also learn from that. The scientific method has had to confront the subjective nature of human witness and is one methodology which allows a verification. I think your argument above about experimental epistemology points out the circular nature, which I believe is an apt point to make about all epistemology. However empiricism works because it creates a set of quantitative measures which are related by mathematical logic contained in theory.
It is also possible that epistemology is asking the wrong questions.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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My wireless is out!
Late...
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Actually, I am the missing link. And for those of you who do not believe me, just check out my IQ, sub-zero. Oh gosh, that means I could be a creationist.
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MH2
climber
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It is also possible that epistemology is asking the wrong questions.
I wouldn't know. I find philosophy fun for the imagination, sort of like sf.
The parable of the empirical epistemologist is a way to look at what can be trusted and beyond that what should be trusted.
The epistemologist nears the crux:
EPISTEMOLOGIST: This is the most fantastic thing I have ever come across! According to the machine, the best thing I can do is to cease to trust the machine!
FRANK: What do you intend to do about it?
EPISTEMOLOGIST: Good question, let me consult the machine. According to the machine, my present intentions are in complete conflict. And I can see why! I am caught in a terrible paradox! If the machine is trustworthy, then I had better accept its suggestion to distrust it. But if I distrust it, then I must also distrust its suggestion to distrust it, so I am really in a total quandary.
Personally, I think that everyone should test their beliefs if they get an opportunity to do so. Science works at trying to create those opportunities. You must have other knowledgable people around to correct your bias, though. Or at least to make coffee for you and remind you when your wife's birthday is.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jack Bauer interrogates Santa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6yUCbqAGrg
All of creation was waiting for the coming of Jesus; Peter, Andrew, James, John, Luke, Mark, Matthew...
Genesis 1:1, In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
Exodus 3:14, God said to Moses, “I am who I am.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I am has sent me to you.’”
Paul Addresses the Areopagus
Acts 17:22-34, So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, for
**“‘In him we live and move and have our being’;
as even some of your own poets have said,
“‘For we are indeed his offspring.’**
Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”
Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked. But others said, “We will hear you again about this.” So Paul went out from their midst. But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them.
John 1:6-18, There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
John 3:15-16, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 6:35-40, Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but i raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 6:44-47, No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
John 20:31, but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Ephesians 2:1-5, And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
John 6:33, For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
John 10:10, The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.
How Precious Is Your Steadfast Love
To the choirmaster. Of David, the servant of the Lord.
Psalm 36:1-12, Transgression speaks to the wicked
deep in his heart;
there is no fear of God
before his eyes.
2 For he flatters himself in his own eyes
that his iniquity cannot be found out and hated.
3 The words of his mouth are trouble and deceit;
he has ceased to act wisely and do good.
4 He plots trouble while on his bed;
he sets himself in a way that is not good;
he does not reject evil.
5 Your steadfast love, O Lord, extends to the heavens,
your faithfulness to the clouds.
6 Your righteousness is like the mountains of God;
your judgments are like the great deep;
man and beast you save, O Lord.
7 How precious is your steadfast love, O God!
The children of mankind take refuge in the shadow of your wings.
8 They feast on the abundance of your house,
and you give them drink from the river of your delights.
9 **For with you is the fountain of life;
in your light do we see light**.
10 Oh, continue your steadfast love to those who know you,
and your righteousness to the upright of heart!
11 Let not the foot of arrogance come upon me,
nor the hand of the wicked drive me away.
12 There the evildoers lie fallen;
they are thrust down, unable to rise.
2 Corinthians 4:6, For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
John 14:6, Jesus said to him, “I am l the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
The Son of Man Must Be Lifted Up
John 12:27-36, “Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? But for this purpose I have come to this hour. Father, glorify your name.” Then a voice came from heaven: “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.” The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to him.” Jesus answered, “This voice has come for your sake, not mine. Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die. So the crowd answered him, “We have heard from the Law that the Christ remains forever. How can you say that the Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?” So Jesus said to them, “The light is among you for a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you. The one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.”
The New Commandment
1 John 2:7-14, Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard. At the same time, it is a new commandment that I am writing to you, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining. Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
I am writing to you, little children,
because your sins are forgiven for his name's sake.
I am writing to you, fathers,
because you know him who is from the beginning.
I am writing to you, young men,
because you have overcome the evil one.
I write to you, children,
because you know the Father.
I write to you, fathers,
because you know him who is from the beginning.
I write to you, young men,
because you are strong,
and the word of God abides in you,
and you have overcome the evil one.(fattrad?)
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MH2
climber
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Ed:
I have friends from the past who have left research in the arcana of particles who now work on developing these sorts of "products" working at places like "Bell Lab" to make your lives convenient. Someday soon those voices on the other end of the phone will not be distinguishable between human and machine. And the first instances of the "Touring Test" will have been met in the general society.
If you will, the understanding of the "illusion of reality" will be the demonstration through the creation of that illusion. And just like any magical illusion, there will be no magic involved.
Jan:
Speaking of consciousness and the brain, as we always seem to do, here's an interesting discussion of different parts of the brain as they relate to emotions
It's those emotions which make Ed's claim seem bold. Granted that the emotional shadings in the human voice could be generated by software but could the software match the tone to the context? Or will the telephone voice only soothe? That would be a big improvement but a pretty weak version of Turing.
However, though prediction is risky, it is true that a lot of people working on a lot of small aspects of the problem will probably make steady progress, or even better than linear progress if we accept the Criswell view. And as Ed suggests, the ability to make a system which exhibits a part of the human repertoire is a version of understanding that part of the human.
My original climbing mentor Bill Thompson is a self-described "lapsed physicist" whose career has been in image processing. For example: How could you get software to use stereo pair images and derive the distance to various objects from binocular disparity? People do it 'without thinking' but the computer scientists don't bother trying to mimic the human, which they regard as proof of the existence of a solution, but not the solution itself.
If a system eventually comes along which passes a strong Turing test, a question relevant to this thread might come up: Would people have created a consciousness? A soul?
The Holy Grail isn't just a simulacrum of human thought, but better-than-human thought. You want a machine that you can ask tough questions and get answers better than you/we could get on our own. I'll believe they are there when we get a smart machine and we pose a hard question and it asks, "What's in it for me?"
I'd also be very happy with a machine that could do real-time language translation in audio and I wouldn't be too fussy about emotional shadings.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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A long gone high performance computing company, Thinking Machines, had the informal motto:
"We want to make a machine that would be proud of us"
that was 20 years ago... but they thought that they were close...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking_Machines
I gave a talk there on a type of computer I was involved with building sometime in the mid to late 80s.
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WBraun
climber
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chess playing is now dominated by machines
Stupid
Humans program the machines.
This proves God is The Intelligent Design.
It's very simple to understand. Modern man can't understand simple things anymore.
All modern man understands now is nonsense.
From the one comes the many.
Modern man only sees the many and that's why he's completely bewildered by everything.
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MH2
climber
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Yeah, I wonder where they are at on the guitar-pickin bot?
Eliza did pull people in pretty easily - I saw the public using it at the Toronto science museum in the late 80s - but like an only-pretty woman she could turn your head but not keep it turned.
Eliza had a hilarious conversation with Racter published in Mathematical Games or Recreations of Scientific American.
When parallel processing started coming on I asked Bill Thompson about it and all he said was, "I don't deal in architecture."
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Numbers 23:19, **God is not man, that he should lie,
or a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Has he said, and will he not do it?
Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it**?
Proverbs 6:16-23, There are six things that the Lord hates,
seven that are an abomination to him:
haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
and hands that shed innocent blood,
a heart that devises wicked plans,
feet that make haste to run to evil,
a false witness who breathes out lies,
and one who sows discord among brothers.
My son, keep your father's commandment,
and forsake not your mother's teaching.
Bind them on your heart always;
tie them around your neck.
When you walk, they will lead you;
when you lie down, they will watch over you;
and when you awake, they will talk with you.
For the commandment is a lamp and the teaching a light,
and the reproofs of discipline are the way of life,
‘All that the Lord says, that I must do’?”
I could not go beyond the command of the Lord my God to do less or more.
2 Kings 11:1-2, Now when Athaliah the mother of Ahaziah saw that her son was dead, she arose and destroyed all the royal family. But Jehosheba, the daughter of King Joram, sister of Ahaziah, took Joash the son of Ahaziah and stole him away from among the king's sons who were being put to death, and she put him and his nurse in a bedroom. Thus they hid him from Athaliah, so that he was not put to death.
Matthew 2:16, Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, became furious, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time that he had ascertained from the wise men.
Matthew 4:1-11, Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And after fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. And the tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.”
But he answered, “It is written,“‘Man shall not live by bread alone,but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”
Then the devil took him to the holy city and set him on the pinnacle of the temple 6 and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written,“‘He will command his angels concerning you,’and“‘On their hands they will bear you up lest you strike your foot against a stone.’”
Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”
Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.”
Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written,“‘You shall worship the Lord your Godand him only shall you serve.’”
Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and were ministering to him.
Jesus Foretells His Death and Resurrection
Matthew 16:21-23, From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, “Far be it from you, Lord! This shall never happen to you.” But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Come on now. Is there not a single believer capable of having an open mind and saying "Even though I believe it is true, it is still possible that every book about God, Jesus, Zeus, Apollo, Auraka, Lao-Tien-Yeh, Februus, Shiva, (boy, there are thousands of different gods), as well as all of the word-of-mouth passed down for centuries, could be all made up by humans." After all, everyone will agree that there is a lot of evil and ignorance in the world. Why not accept that some of that evil and ignorance could have resulted in people making up stuff about God for various human reasons and now you are all stuck with it.
After all, everyone here will admit to human frailty. At least up to the point of their faith. At that point, there is strangely no amount of humbleness and everyone seems to believe that they are right and that all other religions, and the atheists, are all wrong.
I am an atheist but I will easily admit that since I am human and have limited knowledge of the universe and have a lot of instincts and other pre-programming running in my head, that I could easily be wrong.
So step up to the plate, believers, and admit that you could be wrong because you are human and have ego and greed and all that other stuff that makes you a really bad resource for reliable information.
or don't. It just makes you look completely unenlightened to wallow in your own arrogance.
:)
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"After all, everyone here will admit to human frailty"
Exactly! That's why I believe!
Man is the least needed thing in existence, we didn't do anything to help it along,
In fact if we weren't here it would be a cool place?
We come and are gone, and are no more?
It's good to be an Atheist!
Psalm 4:4-8, ponder in your own hearts on your beds, and be silent. Selah
Offer right sacrifices,
and put your trust in the Lord.
There are many who say, “Who will show us some good?
Lift up the light of your face upon us, O Lord!”
You have put more joy in my heart
than they have when their grain and wine abound.
In peace I will both lie down and sleep;
for you alone, O Lord, make me dwell in safety.
Trust in the Lord with All Your Heart
Proverbs 3, My son, do not forget my teaching,
but let your heart keep my commandments,
2 for length of days and years of life
and peace they will add to you.
3 Let not steadfast love and faithfulness forsake you;
bind them around your neck;
write them on the tablet of your heart.
4 So you will find favor and good success
in the sight of God and man.
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
and do not lean on your own understanding.
6 In all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make straight your paths.
7 Be not wise in your own eyes;
fear the Lord, and turn away from evil.
8 It will be healing to your flesh
and refreshment to your bones.
9 Honor the Lord with your wealth
and with the firstfruits of all your produce;
10 then your barns will be filled with plenty,
and your vats will be bursting with wine.
11 My son, do not despise the Lord's discipline
or be weary of his reproof,
12 for the Lord reproves him whom he loves,
as a father the son in whom he delights.
13 Blessed is the one who finds wisdom,
and the one who gets understanding,
14 for the gain from her is better than gain from silver
and her profit better than gold.
15 She is more precious than jewels,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.
16 Long life is in her right hand;
in her left hand are riches and honor.
17 Her ways are ways of pleasantness,
and all her paths are peace.
18 She is a tree of life to those who lay hold of her;
those who hold her fast are called blessed.
19 The Lord by wisdom founded the earth;
by understanding he established the heavens;
20 by his knowledge the deeps broke open,
and the clouds drop down the dew.
21 My son, do not lose sight of these—
keep sound wisdom and discretion,
22 and they will be life for your soul
and adornment for your neck.
23 Then you will walk on your way securely,
and your foot will not stumble.
24 If you lie down, you will not be afraid;
when you lie down, your sleep will be sweet.
25 Do not be afraid of sudden terror
or of the ruin of the wicked, when it comes,
26 for the Lord will be your confidence
and will keep your foot from being caught.
27 Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due,
when it is in your power to do it.
28 Do not say to your neighbor, “Go, and come again,
tomorrow I will give it”—when you have it with you.
29 Do not plan evil against your neighbor,
who dwells trustingly beside you.
30 Do not contend with a man for no reason,
when he has done you no harm.
31 Do not envy a man of violence
and do not choose any of his ways,
32 for the devious person is an abomination to the Lord,
but the upright are in his confidence.
33 The Lord's curse is on the house of the wicked,
but he blesses the dwelling of the righteous.
34 Toward the scorners he is scornful,
but to the humble he gives favor.
35 The wise will inherit honor,
but fools get disgrace.
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MH2
climber
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So step up to the plate, believers,
"Throughout the four years I lived in Cwm Pennant, the sense grew on me that here was a landscape where every field-corner was thick with ghosts, where generations of men had played some cosmic chess-game, arranged and re-arranged stones into the temporary shapes of two or three hundred years, borrowed from here to build there, let frost and wind collapse and the grass wipe clean, and though the summit ridges could preside, curved and swooping, effortlessly elegant, each stone piece their own bequest, they too were subject to the rules of the game, timed by the pulse of the sun."
Jim Perrin (writing a review of an animation short?)
"The white cliffs glared around, the sea lapped in gently towards us, we shrugged our shoulders and went off to climb."
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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squid et. el.- "come on believers"
Take a close look at your self, your life! That hole in your heart(lack of contentment, satisfaction, loneliness, despair, bitterness etc, etc)emptiness. U can't fill! It will always be there! You've tried drugs, sex, money, sports, whatever...it won't go away! Nothing can fill that void in your soul. That is the void were God's Spirit wants to unite with your spirit, and will bring an indescribable piece to your soul.
When I was 8yrs old, I called on Jesus to help me, I had heard nothing of this peace, or the Prince of Peace. But that is what filled me that afternoon, His peace. And I walked away from certain death.
He promises to answer, to reveal Himself to whomever calls on His name! Until you sincerely ask Him to do so, you will be ignorant of His love for you.
I agree with all the human frailty's you described above rectosquid, except the part about "you could be wrong" about the relationship I have with Jesus Christ!!
It is the most personal relationship you can have with anyone here on earth(or for eternity).
If someone asked you to deny the existence of your father, mother wife, son or whomever...would you? It is that personal, and more so...what Jesus Christ offers! To know Him, have a personal relationship with Him.
Some day you will know the truth. But for now, you are wallowing in your own ignorance/arrogance alone bitter and hateful etc. In spiritual darkness(speak of being unenlightened)!! Sad but true.
EDIT: "alone, bitter and hateful" strife, malice, deceit...not spcecifally you rectorsquid(for I don't really know you), but common to mankind!!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nice try, anyway.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Rectorsquid- "that I could be easily wrong"
I do respect you for admitting this!
But I can't lie, even if it meant loosing friendships or loved ones. Or castigation and even certain death.
Peter denied Him three times initially. But when he met the resurrected Christ and was filled with His presence(Spirit)at Pentecost, Peter went on and was martyred. As were eleven of the twelve Apostles, all of whom ran away in fear during His Crucifixion.
I am talking about a personal relationship, nothing can change it.
Take the next step and admit to God that if He is who He says He is, you want to know Him. If Jesus Christ realy is God, and died for you, you will give your life to Him. He promises eternal life. It is that simple. Tell Him you don't know if He(Jesus)realy is God. But if He is, come into my heart(life).
Think about it. What do you have to loose? You have Heaven and Eternity to gain.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Take a close look at your self, your life! That hole in your heart(lack of contentment, satisfaction, loneliness, despair, bitterness etc, etc)emptiness. U can't fill! It will always be there! You've tried drugs, sex, money, sports, whatever...it won't go away! Nothing can fill that void in your soul. That is the void were God's Spirit wants to unite with your spirit, and will bring an indescribable piece to your soul.
I basically find this sort of projection both sad and insulting. It's a poor repackaging of all the 'original sin' bullshit - that, gosh darn it - you're just not good enough. It makes me almost want to cry for the person that believes it; that their life is so sad that they think everyone's life is as sad as theirs. That everyone has a 'hole' or void that needs feeling because they do. Hard to imagine a more sad projection than this.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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wes- "Ya all have no idea..."
I often think of how bizarre/out-there it must all sound.
But I am talking simply about a personal relationship. Period!
Come to your own conclusions about all the rest later.
That has nothing to do with it. No one can make you believe, or deny anything. Come to your own conclusions. I did.
But first you need to ask Him if He is real!!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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healy!
I was speaking in general terms, if your content with your life fine!
Take a look at the world, youth, drugs, suicide...dead at thirty. Credit card debt, the "American Dream!" Jonesen...striving for what? Never satisfied. Fear of death...your the one living in a delusion!!
Open your eyes, take a look around you!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Like I was saying healy, look at the world(people)!!
What do you have to offer(not everyone is as perfect and content as you!
What do you have to offer them??
I have Jesus Christ...just an offer. Their decision.
What have you got?
All you have is "There is no God" And go ahead and admit it...you despise the name of Jesus Christ! And anybody who claims to know and love Him!
Is that all you have to offer??
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oh, you're talking about all those conditions that those poor humans 'chose'. Like the choice of a child to be brought to term by an alchol and meth addicted mother so that he or she will have diminished capacities and impaired decision making capabilities for a lifetime bad 'choices'. The design doesn't get more intelligent than that. And hey, why does such an intelligent designer include so many congenital defects and failures in their designs? Is the idea that god just likes to be entertained by endlessly random protein defects?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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healy!
I too have spent years working in hospitals, have held preemies in my hands(Martin Luther King Hospital, South L.A.). And have asked those same questions.
Became very bitter and disillusioned in my youth after seeing my best friend(a black kid) being kicked and beaten by racist white kid in high-school. And then he walked five miles home to die on his front porch(waiting for his mom)!
And many other things. I new Jesus was God, after what happened to me at 8yrs old there was no doubt. But I just couldn't understand why He created such a messed up world!
I use to sneak out of my house at night and walk the streets, telling God that when I died I was going to spit in His face when I saw Him! I was a very bitter young man by the time I reached 18.
And all I can say is, call it an epiphany or anything you want. But I saw His holiness and mans(my)darkness. How He had nothing to do with 'progression' of man. Man is responsible! Your so quick to give man all the credit for everything good, and then turn and blame God or any one who believes in a god for all the evil.
Your a very bitter person.
I can relate!!
EDIT: Your also caring and compasionate and rightfuly angry. I do understand!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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The Parable of the Lost Sheep
Luke 15:1-10 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to hear him. And the Pharisees and the scribes grumbled, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.”
So he told them this parable: “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.’ Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
The Parable of the Lost Coin
“Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and seek diligently until she finds it? And when she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin that I had lost.’ Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
The Parable of the Prodigal Son
Luke 15:11-32, And he said, “There was a man who had two sons. And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of property that is coming to me.’ And he divided his property between them. Not many days later, the younger son gathered all he had and took a journey into a far country, and there he squandered his property in reckless living. And when he had spent everything, a severe famine arose in that country, and he began to be in need. So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed pigs. And he was longing to be fed with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one gave him anything.
“But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father's hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger! I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants.”’ And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate. For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.
“Now his older son was in the field, and as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. And he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. And he said to him, ‘Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf, because he has received him back safe and sound.’ But he was angry and refused to go in. His father came out and entreated him, but he answered his father, ‘Look, these many years I have served you, and I never disobeyed your command, yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might celebrate with my friends. But when this son of yours came, who has devoured your property with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him!’ And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours. It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found.’”
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Rokjox!
RIGHT-ON BRO!!
You are describing the Prodigal Son!
And Gobee is quick to illustrate!
Good work Fellas!!
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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The idea that humanity has something like “free will” is a stretch. Humans are directed by evolutionary need: the need to reproduce, to protect a territory for that purpose, etc. We are driven by those needs that are often at odds with the imposed morality of any given mythological system. To say we have the free will to choose between a moral dictate born of some mythology and the desires and needs imposed upon us by nature is ridiculous; our choices are weighted by forces over which we have almost no control. It seems “god” has set up a system of entrapment not one of free will, otherwise how is it that we are all sinners?
Paul states in Romans 11:32 that we are only condemned so that god may grant us salvation. This is where Augustine gets his “O felix culpa.” Sin is a function of “gods” pleasure in granting us grace.
Free will is ultimately the believer’s justification for natural evil: evil must exist so that we might have the opportunity to choose. The problem is that our very nature often compels us in our choice. It all makes little sense.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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“free will” is a stretch
Man does not live by bread alone, but we get hungry and there is a lot of stuff we can take in, but with God it's all good, not always fast food?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Bitter? I'm not bitter. I am, however, confused about "the designer's" intent when it comes to genetic and congenital birth defects.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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paul roehl- "Romans 11:32 we are only condemned so that God may grant us salvation"
He is talking about the Jews!
They, on a whole rejected Christ as their Messiah.
He is stating that eventually all Jews will be saved! All of Israel(Nation) turn to the Messiah of the Gospels during the Tribulation.
Read it in context to the surrounding verses!
It was prophesied and occurred(that He would turn to the Gentiles).
Entrapment?? If you have no confidence in a Higher Power with a plan for your life. Someone who is capable of intervening in your life, capable of revealing Himself to you! And you CHOOSE to believe that it is a survival of the fittest with no absolute right or wrong. It is simple, it is a choice. You have demonstrated that choice by your beliefs. He is still offering you an escape from your own hopeless eternal destination, separation from Him!!
I surly do not call that entrapment. You choose to not believe/reject Him. So be it. He is not about to force you.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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healyje!
I was born with Spina Bifida Occulta!
I had an open sore lesion, the size of a nickle on my sacrum(very painful) until well into my adult life. Had a very painful surgery at 52yrs old. Pretty much was responsible for my degenerative disk disease and compound bulges and one disk collapse(L5S1) at age 51.
If I was born a decade later, they probably would have strongly recommended that I be aborted in the first trimester! I probably would not have been here to experience this life. I am glad I have had the opportunity, regardless of all the pain and suffering.
I have often wondered and asked why. It has pretty much ruined life as I would have liked to have enjoyed it.
There are certainly lots of worse case scenarios. At least I had bowel and bladder control. But alot of pain. Never ending pain!!!
The world is decaying/dying. So is the solar system/universe. He did not create it that way.
Take it up with Him. He loves you. And offers you HOPE.
His love and grief far exceeds anything that man can comprehend!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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you all take some time out and take this in:
http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/pagels03/pagels_index.html
"I'm concerned about our country, because one can see how appeals to religion, like those that are currently being made by the religious right, can work in a democracy to subvert all of the values to which they give lip service. It worked brilliantly with the Roman Empire. Beliefs are overrated in Christianity. Religious traditions have to do with a lot more than beliefs.
While the Constitution does protect religious freedom of worship, it's supposed to protect secularism."
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sorry to hear about your ongoing pain.
My point is that if we were 'designed', then starting with the combinations of genes, amino acids, proteins, and all the processes entailed in even 'simple' lifeforms, it would mean a 'designer' would have had to have been into the incredible and near infinite minutae of life's biological and chemical processes down to molecular levels. If a 'designer' capable of that - and given that some organisms are much better at repairing genetic defects then others - then it means there is 'intention' around different designs relative to their robustness and hardiness in the face of genetic anomolies. It also would mean that such varying genetic and congenital defects are a deliberate part of the overal design and scheme of life 'as-designed' and 'as-built' - another grand statement of deliberate 'intent'. That is if 'Intelligent Design' were real.
Personally, I think ID is a completely self-condemning concept from an 'intent' and birth defects perspective.
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WBraun
climber
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Just because we are defective and limited we project our own defects and limitations onto perfection does not in any way diminish that perfection in any way whatsoever.
Also secularism is bogus. It's just another secretarian "ism".
It will fail and it is failing as we can see .......
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Thanks Ed!
Personally, I have a feeling that this fervor of the so called "Religious Right" had nothing to do with attempting to turn the US into a totalitarian state. At least not any believing Christians. That is totally absurd and an attempt at fear/scare mongering.
And I and many prominent Christian leaders(Pat Robertson etc.)believed it was a big mistake to go into Iraq. All you need to do is read what the Bible says about the country.
I never agreed with the "marriage" of politics and religion. I, and most Christians I know, live life by example(often fail)and strive to be the "salt of the earth". What morals society excepts, is society's choice.
There is no doubt in my mind that the US is on a downward spiral. Look at the past thirty or forty years. I do believe it is a direct result of the rejection of the Ten Commandments and rejection of a belief in God. Plain and simple.
Who removed the Ten Commandments? Liberals, Conservatives? I know it was not Christians! But that was Americas choice.
And that is what Jesus Christ is about CHOICE!
He would never want to subvert His beliefs on anyone. It would be impossible! That would equal=RELIGION!!
He offers a relationship!
God does recognise a country's attempt to follow His Commandments/morals.
America has drifted far from where we began.
I will tell you the truth. When America in 1963 removed God from the classroom, God obliged and left the school yard/system(His presence/protection/influence). Look at the drug/gang/crime/shooting ridden schools of today. The Bible was never taught in schools to begin with. But it did have a spiritual presence. He was that presence, guarding the minds and behaviors of our youth. Believe it or not.
Rome was corrupt. Exactly opposite of what Christ preached.
And America is following that same path.
When the salt is removed, decay results.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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healyje!
Your missing the whole point of the corruption/decay/defect of Creation after the fall. From the infinitesimal/molecular, to the Galactic! What you are describing was never intended to happen. That is what happened at the Fall of man. Degeneration and death. Man relinquished his God given dominion/conservatorship of the Earth, over to the ruler of this world, Satan. Not a nice guy. He is the Destroyer.
I know this sounds like a ferry tale, but it is true.
Just ask Jesus to reveal Himself to you, and He will.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Christianity fails. Why? Because it is a patriarchal dogma that links Judaic rigidity and introspective guilt with Hellenistic irrationality into a concoction of prejudice and fear. It assumes the failure of human reason as well as the failure of an intrinsic human morality. It requires us to believe in a personal god that finds so much joy in our redemption he commits us all to sin at our births. One could argue, as Gibbon did, that the Roman Empire was destroyed and the “dark ages” ushered in, by the advent of Christianity.
The idea that a Pentecostal believer is speaking in translatable ancient tongues and not psychotic gibberish is just plain ludicrous. Christianity and its political vehicles have created havoc in Western culture for centuries. And, as Hume said so insightfully centuries ago, there is no such thing as a miracle, because miracles by their very nature are impossible.
The word, as articulated in the New Testament, is God, but the word is an invention of humanity. The closest thing to a personal god in this universe is humanity. It’s a shame we can’t act more like gods. Kindness and good will inhere naturally in the human heart; they don’t need 2000-year-old sheepherder or camel driver mythologies to make them real or active.
But all religion tied to specific dogma and the faith of belief fails as well.
Consider the hundreds of world mythologies; doubtless they can’t all be true or real. Certainly, the doctrines of Islam can’t be true if the doctrines of Christianity are. It is a given that some mythologies are false and yet each is served by faith. Faith can hardly be the measure of truth because it so often serves what is false. Without faith all mythological systems fail, and if one mythology is false then it’s possible that all mythologies are false.
To hold up faith and miracles as a manifestation of reality is only a weak attempt to be reconciled to the inevitable. To claim we can’t know god because of his mysterious nature is to beg the question why the mystery? To claim the world is a veil of illusion is to abandon all reason to a procrustean bed of inconsistencies and theological foolishness predicated on personal belief and our pathetic need to be reconciled to an inescapable human fate. No one can know of god with certainty and god will not tell us; his name is ambiguity. And we can only wonder -- what’s the point?
Faith is always delusion by definition.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Paul- "because miracles by there very nature are impossible".
Everything is possible with God, nothing is impossible.
Every breath you take, everyday you are given to live is a miracle. Open your eyes, look at the Universe. The perfect order/laws of the universe. Perfect order from chaos over billions of years?
When I was 8yrs old, I was about to be murdered by a serial killer. According to his son and daughter who were there, he murdered over thirty young boys! He told me he was going to torture me and when they found my body they would think I was hit by a train. I was trapped.
I new little of Jesus, other than He claimed to be God and that He loved children. I called out to Him "Jesus Please Help Me" I was filled with His presence/peace, and walked away. From certain death.
That was a miracle, and the beginning of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. He has done many things/miracles in my life and others over the more than 50 years since that initial day.
I am sorry to here you have come to a purely systematic/mental deduction that there is no God.
There is nothing wrong with reason. For as hard as you endeavor to disprove His existence, you will never succeed.
Jesus made a simple claim, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, there is only one Way to the Father, and that is through Me." Why not take Him up on that challenge. You don't know for 100% that God does not exist! You are a brilliant mind I perceive, don't let arrogance rob you of being 100% sure about who Jesus Christ realy is.
Just simply ask Him, and ask Him into your life if He is who He says He is. Only a fool would refuse what He has to offer.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Ed-
Thanks for the post about Ardi from Science. That will make a great reference to put on a web page for my physical anthro classes.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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It seems that the two sides of this issue have reverted to insulting each other again.
To the atheists I will say that Judaism, Christianity and Islam together, still represent less than half the human race so to deny God or condemn religion based on their failings is a very narrow and biased view of both God and human aspirations.
There are many people on this planet who are trying to envision a more modern, scientific, and universal view of religion, most of them using an evolutionary framework to do so. Their efforts are much more interesting than just rehashing the same stuff over and over.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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There are many people on this planet who are trying to envision a more modern, scientific, and universal view of religion, most of them using an evolutionary framework to do so.
I'd say the first problem you have with that concept is it will be completely rejected out of hand by individual religions. The second problem using a concept like the evoloution of religion, is it would seem to imply that all of mankind's religions prior to now were not absolutely true. Remember, many of those beliefs weren't idle - people were sacrificed to gods over beliefs which were held to be true and absolute.
It gets back to the question: are you saying the Greeks, Romans, Mayans, Inca, and thousands of other religions had it 'wrong' or that their beliefs weren't 'true'? Seems like that path is a slippery slope to me...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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God does recognise a country's attempt to follow His Commandments/morals.
America has drifted far from where we began.
Back in the day where they burned witches, had slaves, killed blasphemers, and committed genocide on the indians?
I think we might have even improved since then!
Paying lip service to God in school while engaged in the actions above shouldn't curry favor with any diety
Peace
Karl
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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healyje-
The idea that a religion is literally true is fortunately not as widespread as many paranoid atheists would like to believe. This is an idea that afflicts only western religions for the most part and only the fundamentalist factions of those.
While it is more amusing to conjure up the most ignorant and bigoted examples of religion that one can currently find, declare that they represent all religions, and then have fun shooting them down, all this accomplishes is reinforcing the biases of both atheists and fundamentalists.
The vast majority of people even within western religion have long ago moved on.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Karl!
There were a total of 14 "witches" killed. Granted 14 to many, by a evil Godless town. And America paid with the blood of over 600,000 young men to correct the injustice of slavery. And racism is still alive in America! What happened to the Native Americans and the slaughter of the great buffalo herds was all gigantic marks against humanity and all part of the obvious inherent flaw of mankind. America hasn't won a war since WW II!
EDIT: Has nothing to do with "paying lip service", it was declaring that God does not exist, and making anyone who believes in a Creator God out to be a fool and archaic moron. Well you better hope your right. Because if I was God, and got booted out of anywhere well...look at the results!!!! Great time to raise a kid in America. They are considering issuing bullet proof vests and six shooters to teachers! And yet if kids gather before school and pray around the flag pole they either get arrested or shot!! Go figure.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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The idea that a religion is literally true is fortunately not as widespread...
Not as widespread among who?
While it is more amusing to conjure up the most ignorant and bigoted examples of religion that one can currently find, declare that they represent all religions, and then have fun shooting them down, all this accomplishes is reinforcing the biases of both atheists and fundamentalists.
I wouldn't under any circumstances call the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Mayans, or Inca "ignorant" or "bigoted" - they were however, resolute in their beliefs - probably far more so than people are today. And what represents "all religions" is belief. Again, it would seem to me that you are the one casting those civilizations' somehow childish for holding literal and absolute beliefs.
The vast majority of people even within western religion have long ago moved on.
Wow Jan, that's quite a claim. I'd say the world might not be with you on this one. This seems like a pretty dismissive wave of the hand saying 'educated' adults [or civilizations] have "moved on" [from primitive myth]. Maybe check with Werner on that one as well, he seems pretty resolute about the authoritativeness of Vedic beliefs.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Taking God out of schools wasn't about teachers reading from or "giving lip service to" the Bible in school. They never did back then. I never heard them. And my two older sisters and younger brother never did either. It was about not being allowed to bring a Bible to school, pray in school(I am talking about individually or in small groups before or after school). Or wear any "religious"(meaning Christian)clothing/jewelry. Or allowing campus clubs after school. Or write or give credit to, or speak of belief in God in a written or oral report. Among other things. And the humanistic/survival of the fittest/no absolute right or wrong darwinian Godless dogma that is increasingly preached, insisting there is no God!!
And viola. Welcome to America children. Don't forget your bulletproof vests/condoms and just remember to just say no to drugs and pornagraphy on the internet and perverts! And oh yea, gangs... Compared to the fifty's and sixty's, I'd say things have changed for the worst.
But I shouldn't be all gloom and doom...hopefuly things will change for the better...for the kids sake.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Belief in god = ethics and morality?
Man, that's a stretch under the best of circumstances. That didn't even seem to be the case in the garden of eden (or is that too literal?) let alone here on Earth after god abandoned it.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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healeyje-
Most religions on this planet have seen religion as an attempt to understand the Divine, not as absolute truth about the Divine. One can appreciate the beauties of one's religion, and even think that one's own religion is the best for oneself, maybe for all people, without thinking that one has all the answers or that one has to force everyone else to think the same way.
In fact, if you go back in history, most human beings have been illiterate and the majority of people on this planet still are. Therefore they thought/think in symbols, in metaphors and allegories, in parables, not in terms of literal word for word interpretations. In our own culture Biblical literalism is a phenomenon of the last few centuries only, and has never represented nor does it now, represent the majority of Christians.
As for insulting nonwestern people, I dare say that having spent 30 years in Asia, I have more experience with a variety of indigenous people than you, and my experience is that they're sophisticated enough to be able to compare religions without feeling threatened. Indigenous religions emphasize experience and group identity, not written interpretations. Most of all, they understand human intentions and whether one is genuinely curious and open minded or there to sell them on an alternative whether it be religion or secularism.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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TripL7-
You and I have been over the school prayer issue before also and I really don't think it's fair to blame the schools for the decline in civilized behavior among the young. It was always the parents' and religion's job to do that. If children get no ethical training because they're not exposed to religion, that's the fault of the parents for not teaching ethics at home either, or sending them where they could learn. The schools just deal with the results.
As a social scientist I think there are deeper societal reasons at work as well. We have uniquely American problems of assimilating diverse immigrants and dealing with a legacy of racism and deprivation. On top of that, we have the most unequal society among the industrialized countries, with the fewest social services, no doubt co-related with having the largest military and overseas empire of all the industrialized countries.
We also have a culture that measures everything in terms of money and material goods which also looks down on those with less money and goods. We have built our nation on suburbs which have no community center or spirit. We have also marginalized the old so they no longer live with the young or teach them. In general we have emphasized individualism to the exclusion of family and community. We also have porous borders which make it easy for drugs to enter the country and plenty of people have reason to take them. Crime ensues and the young mimic what they see.
Meanwhile, both religionists and atheists waste their time blaming each other.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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So Gobee, do you agree with Jan that most christians have moved beyond bible literalism?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Here are some interesting stats on types of Christians according to /wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_members
Catholicism - 1.2 billion
Protestantism - 670 million
Eastern Orthodoxy - 210 million
Oriental Orthodoxy - 75 million
Anglicanism - 82 million
Nontrinitarianism - 27 million
Nestorianism - 1 million
Of these, only a small part of Protestantism claims the Bible is the literal word of God. In fact, they and some of the non trinitarians are the only major branches of Christianity which even emphasize Bible interpretation over sacraments and ritual. Protestant belief and culture has traditionally dominated America but not the world. Even in the U.S. one out of 4 Christians is Roman Catholic.
In addition, Catholics and Eastern Orthodoxy have already declared that one can believe in their religion and evolution.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Taking God out of schools wasn't about teachers reading from or "giving lip service to" the Bible in school. They never did back then. I never heard them. And my two older sisters and younger brother never did either. It was about not being allowed to bring a Bible to school, pray in school(I am talking about individually or in small groups before or after school). Or wear any "religious"(meaning Christian)clothing/jewelry. Or allowing campus clubs after school. Or write or give credit to, or speak of belief in God in a written or oral report. Among other things. And the humanistic/survival of the fittest/no absolute right or wrong darwinian Godless dogma that is increasingly preached, insisting there is no God!!
And viola. Welcome to America children. Don't forget your bulletproof vests/condoms and just remember to just say no to drugs and pornagraphy on the internet and perverts! And oh yea, gangs... Compared to the fifty's and sixty's, I'd say things have changed for the worst.
Classic religionist BS.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Isaiah 42:3, a bruised reed he will not break,
and a faintly burning wick he will not quench;
he will faithfully bring forth justice.
A diving accident in 1967 left Joni Eareckson Tada a quadriplegic in a wheelchair. Today, she is an internationally known mouth artist, a talented vocalist, a radio host, an author of 17 books and an advocate for disabled persons worldwide. In this audio story, you’ll meet Joni and hear how she struggled to accept God’s design in her paralysis. http://www.joniearecksontadastory.com/
Joni has done more then ten strong men, she is made perfect in weakness!
God shows His love is real in our weakness, and allows us to share His love with others that are weak!
I also know there are a lot of lessons to learn here, and before we get the keys to the New Heaven and New Earth, we need to trust Him, but it's coming none the less...
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.2) By John MacArthur http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
Jan,
My understanding of the Buddha is when he was growing up at home, his father did not want him to see anything that was not beautiful, not even a dead leaf. But one day outside he saw an old woman, sickness, and death and was shattered and thought his life was a lie, and knew that would befall him.
That was the start of his journey and he renounced all his worldly possessions...
Werner said that without the soul the body is toast,(something like that).
Well we don't take anything with us!
Paul in Phlippians 4:11-13, for I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content. I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound. In any and every circumstance, I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and need. I can do all things through him who strengthens me.
Jesus in Matthew 6:19-24, “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
“The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!
“No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.
God, Jesus, and the Hole Spirit is our treasure! As well as Family, loved ones, friends, the whole world belongs to God, the devil is just a spoiler!
Matthew 16:26, For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?
in Matthew 23:37-39, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! See, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”
For in God we trust in Faith, Hope, and Love, from where comes our help!
Jesus is the Way to the Father...that's a Christian
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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So, is that a yes or a no?
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pedge
Trad climber
SW
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Progress and evolution in religion, as in other things, does not necessarily mean that what has preceded was necessarily false. As I see it, one of the threads working its way through the old testament is a movement towards the recognition of articulated belief as idolatry, piggybacked on the concept of a single, omnipotent god. The faith towards which these teaching point requires, on the one hand, a rejection of any concept or articulation of the divine as our own idolatrous creation, and on the other, the recognition that in the weakness of our own limited human perspective, once cast from Eden, we need the crutch of those idols to focus our efforts to achieve faith so that we can leave them behind. There is a similar thread concerning our relationship with the institutions that frame and maintain the idols. The new testament, although not necessarily Jesus, seems to represent a regressive reaction to the more mystical and simultaneously intellectually oriented and less literal or dogmatic faith towards with these threads were moving.
From what I understand, simplistic literalism has been increasing with evangelical teachings and rhetoric that undo much of what had been previously accomplished. I don’t really understand what is going on. But who, aside from the most hateful and cynical, really benefits from convincing people that their faith is tied to factual beliefs that can be disproven by observational science? Sometimes it seems like there is a manipulative institutional intent in teaching outright and obvious lies about basic science or our not too distant history as it relates to religion. Those with a little intellectual curiosity will soon discover the lie and are more likely to leave the institution than to try to fight it over something so outrageous or pathetic, which makes it easier to maintain a compliant, obedient flock.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2010 - 12:09pm PT
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As the original poster, I feel obliged to claim number 5000!
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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All religion is a kind of idolatry in that religion employs metaphor (and what is metaphor if not "art"?) to describe the human need for reconciliation to existence and ultimately the end of that existence. In human thought the idea of "god" is the ultimate and perhaps most common metaphor...
to read it as anything else is to abandon reason.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"All religion is a kind of idolatry"
Exodus 20:3, “You shall have no other gods before me.
Psalm 6:17, I will give to the Lord the thanks due to his righteousness,
and I will sing praise to the name of the Lord, the Most High.
God is eternal, get used to it!
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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How can anyone claim that god is eternal? Perhaps god is finite, perhaps god is just as confused about his existence as most humans, perhaps god is a bungler making mistakes left and right, how can anyone claim, reasonably, to know the character of god?
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WBraun
climber
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Perhaps god is finite, perhaps god is just as confused about his existence as most humans,
Perhaps means speculation.
Means you ultimately don't know.
Since you don't know and it's pure mental speculation then it's not science.
Just pure guessing. Ultimately worthless.
Perhaps I free soled the Pacific Ocean wall yesterday. Nobody saw.
Perhaps I'm right about my free soloing the Pacific Ocean wall yesterday .....
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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He's baaaaaack.
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MH2
climber
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We are back from the seaside and in a mood to look at what rectorsquid asks:
So step up to the plate, believers, and admit that you could be wrong because you are human and have ego and greed and all that other stuff that makes you a really bad resource for reliable information.
It is a reasonable request in the context of this thread because it brings up the difference between ideas based on a lot of evidence, such as evolution, as opposed to faith based on little to no evidence. It seems so reasonable to ask if believers have doubt. But what would a yes or no answer mean?
If someone says, "Yes, I am not sure that there is a God," then we don't need to look further.
But if someone says, "No, I have no doubt that there is a God," can we believe them? After all, they could have doubt but be unwilling to say so, but more basically they are making a statement about the workings of their own mind, and how closely can they examine those nuts and bolts?
Again, if a person states, "There is a God," we don't expect them to give evidence that would convince a skeptic. If they could we would have joined their church long ago.
But if a person says, "I believe that there is a God," we can conceive of being able to test that statement.
We don't want to rely on what a person says, because they might be wrong. We want to turn to the experimental epistemologist and his machine that reads minds. His session with Frank began when he held up a book and asked Frank what color it was. Frank, who had recently had a problem with his color vision corrected by his eye doctor, answered that the book seemed red to him. Frank was wrong.
The epistemologist was able to know what Frank didn't know because he had a machine that looked inside Frank's brain, whereas Frank was only aware of the surface conscious part of his brain.
Granted that there is no machine to read minds. But you can do a thought experiment about thought and take away something useful from it. And despite enormous obstacles to complete measurement of brain activity, you can be sure that even partial success would have big consequences. At the airport, for example.
So there is no need to ask people if they doubt their beliefs. Any statement they make about their beliefs is suspect until you get independent evidence. It isn't impossible that one of these days the functional MRI or other technology will look at a "doubt center" in the brain and find a small spike in activity there, even as the subject states, "I have perfect faith that God loves me."
Doubt is a part of curiosity. If there is a completely incurious person, perhaps there is a person with no doubts.
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WBraun
climber
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If they could we would have joined their church long ago.
Joining a church will not help.
Science will.
To prove the existence of God is done in 2 different methods.
The ascending method and the descending method.
Modern science relies completely on the ascending method and will take them forever to come to the correct conclusion because ....
You can not challenge supremacy unless you are Supreme.
Otherwise supreme would fall under delusion. Material nature maintains it's ultimate supremacy to the gross physical material scientists.
They can not defeat material nature. Otherwise the desolution of the material body (death) would have been conquered long ago.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"How can anyone claim that god is eternal? Perhaps god is finite, perhaps god is just as confused about his existence as most humans, perhaps god is a bungler making mistakes left and right, how can anyone claim, reasonably, to know the character of god?"
Revelation 1:8, “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Deuteronomy 33:27, The eternal God is your dwelling place,
and underneath are the everlasting arms.
Deuteronomy 32:4, “The Rock, his work is perfect,
for all his ways are justice.
A God of faithfulness and without iniquity,
just and upright is he
Genesis 2:1-3, Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.
A bungler, wouldn't have rested, there would be more to be done!
The Ancient of Days Reigns
Daniel 7:9-10, “As I looked,
thrones were placed,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat;
his clothing was white as snow,
and the hair of his head like pure wool;
his throne was fiery flames;
its wheels were burning fire.
A stream of fire issued
and came out from before him;
a thousand thousands served him,
and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him;
the court sat in judgment,
and the books were opened.
The Son of Man Is Given Dominion
Daniel 7:13-14, “I saw in the night visions,
and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.
And to him was given dominion
and glory and a kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed.
The Lord Answers Job
Job 38, Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:
2 “Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Dress for action like a man;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.
4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
7 when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 “Or who shut in the sea with doors
when it burst out from the womb,
9 when I made clouds its garment
and thick darkness its swaddling band,
10 and prescribed limits for it
and set bars and doors,
11 and said, ‘Thus far shall you come, and no farther,
and here shall your proud waves be stayed’?
12 “Have you commanded the morning since your days began,
and caused the dawn to know its place,
13 that it might take hold of the skirts of the earth,
and the wicked be shaken out of it?
14 It is changed like clay under the seal,
and its features stand out like a garment.
15 From the wicked their light is withheld,
and their uplifted arm is broken.
16 “Have you entered into the springs of the sea,
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you,
or have you seen the gates of deep darkness?
18 Have you comprehended the expanse of the earth?
Declare, if you know all this.
19 “Where is the way to the dwelling of light,
and where is the place of darkness,
20 that you may take it to its territory
and that you may discern the paths to its home?
21 You know, for you were born then,
and the number of your days is great!
22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow,
or have you seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 which I have reserved for the time of trouble,
for the day of battle and war?
24 What is the way to the place where the light is distributed,
or where the east wind is scattered upon the earth?
25 “Who has cleft a channel for the torrents of rain
and a way for the thunderbolt,
26 to bring rain on a land where no man is,
on the desert in which there is no man,
27 to satisfy the waste and desolate land,
and to make the ground sprout with grass?
28 “Has the rain a father,
or who has begotten the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb did the ice come forth,
and who has given birth to the frost of heaven?
30 The waters become hard like stone,
and the face of the deep is frozen.
31 “Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades
or loose the cords of Orion?
32 Can you lead forth the Mazzaroth in their season,
or can you guide the Bear with its children?
33 Do you know the ordinances of the heavens?
Can you establish their rule on the earth?
34 “Can you lift up your voice to the clouds,
that a flood of waters may cover you?
35 Can you send forth lightnings, that they may go
and say to you, ‘Here we are’?
36 Who has put wisdom in the inward parts
or given understanding to the mind?
37 Who can number the clouds by wisdom?
Or who can tilt the waterskins of the heavens,
38 when the dust runs into a mass
and the clods stick fast together?
39 “Can you hunt the prey for the lion,
or satisfy the appetite of the young lions,
40 when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in their thicket?
41 Who provides for the raven its prey,
when its young ones cry to God for help,
and wander about for lack of food?
Job 39, “Do you know when the mountain goats give birth?
Do you observe the calving of the does?
2 Can you number the months that they fulfill,
and do you know the time when they give birth,
3 when they crouch, bring forth their offspring,
and are delivered of their young?
4 Their young ones become strong; they grow up in the open;
they go out and do not return to them.
5 “Who has let the wild donkey go free?
Who has loosed the bonds of the swift donkey,
6 to whom I have given the arid plain for his home
and the salt land for his dwelling place?
7 He scorns the tumult of the city;
he hears not the shouts of the driver.
8 He ranges the mountains as his pasture,
and he searches after every green thing.
9 “Is the wild ox willing to serve you?
Will he spend the night at your manger?
10 Can you bind him in the furrow with ropes,
or will he harrow the valleys after you?
11 Will you depend on him because his strength is great,
and will you leave to him your labor?
12 Do you have faith in him that he will return your grain
and gather it to your threshing floor?
13 “The wings of the ostrich wave proudly,
but are they the pinions and plumage of love?
14 For she leaves her eggs to the earth
and lets them be warmed on the ground,
15 forgetting that a foot may crush them
and that the wild beast may trample them.
16 She deals cruelly with her young, as if they were not hers;
though her labor be in vain, yet she has no fear,
17 because God has made her forget wisdom
and given her no share in understanding.
18 When she rouses herself to flee,
she laughs at the horse and his rider.
19 “Do you give the horse his might?
Do you clothe his neck with a mane?
20 Do you make him leap like the locust?
His majestic snorting is terrifying.
21 He paws in the valley and exults in his strength;
he goes out to meet the weapons.
22 He laughs at fear and is not dismayed;
he does not turn back from the sword.
23 Upon him rattle the quiver,
the flashing spear, and the javelin.
24 With fierceness and rage he swallows the ground;
he cannot stand still at the sound of the trumpet.
25 When the trumpet sounds, he says ‘Aha!’
He smells the battle from afar,
the thunder of the captains, and the shouting.
26 “Is it by your understanding that the hawk soars
and spreads his wings toward the south?
27 Is it at your command that the eagle mounts up
and makes his nest on high?
28 On the rock he dwells and makes his home,
on the rocky crag and stronghold.
29 From there he spies out the prey;
his eyes behold it from far away.
30 His young ones suck up blood,
and where the slain are, there is he.”
Job 40, And the Lord said to Job:
2 “Shall a faultfinder contend with the Almighty?
He who argues with God, let him answer it.”
Job Promises Silence
3 Then Job answered the Lord and said:
4 “Behold, I am of small account; what shall I answer you?
I lay my hand on my mouth.
5 I have spoken once, and I will not answer;
twice, but I will proceed no further.”
The Lord Challenges Job
6 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:
7 “Dress for action like a man;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.
8 Will you even put me in the wrong?
Will you condemn me that you may be in the right?
9 Have you an arm like God,
and can you thunder with a voice like his?
10 “Adorn yourself with majesty and dignity;
clothe yourself with glory and splendor.
11 Pour out the overflowings of your anger,
and look on everyone who is proud and abase him.
12 Look on everyone who is proud and bring him low
and tread down the wicked where they stand.
13 Hide them all in the dust together;
bind their faces in the world below.
14 Then will I also acknowledge to you
that your own right hand can save you.
15 “Behold, Behemoth, which I made as I made you;
he eats grass like an ox.
16 Behold, his strength in his loins,
and his power in the muscles of his belly.
17 He makes his tail stiff like a cedar;
the sinews of his thighs are knit together.
18 His bones are tubes of bronze,
his limbs like bars of iron.
19 “He is the first of the works of God;
let him who made him bring near his sword!
20 For the mountains yield food for him
where all the wild beasts play.
21 Under the lotus plants he lies,
in the shelter of the reeds and in the marsh.
22 For his shade the lotus trees cover him;
the willows of the brook surround him.
23 Behold, if the river is turbulent he is not frightened;
he is confident though Jordan rushes against his mouth.
24 Can one take him by his eyes,
or pierce his nose with a snare?
Job 41, “Can you draw out Leviathan with a fishhook
or press down his tongue with a cord?
2 Can you put a rope in his nose
or pierce his jaw with a hook?
3 Will he make many pleas to you?
Will he speak to you soft words?
4 Will he make a covenant with you
to take him for your servant forever?
5 Will you play with him as with a bird,
or will you put him on a leash for your girls?
6 Will traders bargain over him?
Will they divide him up among the merchants?
7 Can you fill his skin with harpoons
or his head with fishing spears?
8 Lay your hands on him;
remember the battle—you will not do it again!
9 Behold, the hope of a man is false;
he is laid low even at the sight of him.
10 No one is so fierce that he dares to stir him up.
Who then is he who can stand before me?
11 Who has first given to me, that I should repay him?
Whatever is under the whole heaven is mine.
12 “I will not keep silence concerning his limbs,
or his mighty strength, or his goodly frame.
13 Who can strip off his outer garment?
Who would come near him with a bridle?
14 Who can open the doors of his face?
Around his teeth is terror.
15 His back is made of rows of shields,
shut up closely as with a seal.
16 One is so near to another
that no air can come between them.
17 They are joined one to another;
they clasp each other and cannot be separated.
18 His sneezings flash forth light,
and his eyes are like the eyelids of the dawn.
19 Out of his mouth go flaming torches;
sparks of fire leap forth.
20 Out of his nostrils comes forth smoke,
as from a boiling pot and burning rushes.
21 His breath kindles coals,
and a flame comes forth from his mouth.
22 In his neck abides strength,
and terror dances before him.
23 The folds of his flesh stick together,
firmly cast on him and immovable.
24 His heart is hard as a stone,
hard as the lower millstone.
25 When he raises himself up the mighty are afraid;
at the crashing they are beside themselves.
26 Though the sword reaches him, it does not avail,
nor the spear, the dart, or the javelin.
27 He counts iron as straw,
and bronze as rotten wood.
28 The arrow cannot make him flee;
for him sling stones are turned to stubble.
29 Clubs are counted as stubble;
he laughs at the rattle of javelins.
30 His underparts are like sharp potsherds;
he spreads himself like a threshing sledge on the mire.
31 He makes the deep boil like a pot;
he makes the sea like a pot of ointment.
32 Behind him he leaves a shining wake;
one would think the deep to be white-haired.
33 On earth there is not his like,
a creature without fear.
34 He sees everything that is high;
he is king over all the sons of pride.”
Job's Confession and Repentance
Job 42, Then Job answered the Lord and said:
2 “I know that you can do all things,
and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
3 ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
4 ‘Hear, and I will speak;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.’
5 I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear,
but now my eye sees you;
6 therefore I despise myself,
and repent in dust and ashes.”
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Deuteronomy 32:4, “The Rock, his work is perfect,
for all his ways are justice.
A God of faithfulness and without iniquity,
just and upright is he
Ha! Justice? Perfection? Tell it to a four year old kid with terminal cancer. If there is a god he's doing a piss poor job of running the universe!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I'm gathering Gobee is a committed biblical literalist.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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No, Gobee is literal biblical cut-n-paste-ist. And in his honor, I submit the following from the Dwindling In Unbelief blog.http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/
Biblical Justice: Everybody must get stoned
(To the tune of Bob Dylan's "Rainy Day Woman #12 & 35")
Well, they'll stone you if you touch the holy things.
Whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death. Exodus 19:13
They'll stone you if you take accursed things.
Achan ... took of the accursed thing. ... And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. ... So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger. Joshua 7:1-26
They'll stone you if you if you curse or blaspheme.
And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16
They'll stone you if you're raped and do not scream.
If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. Deuteronomy 22:23-24
But I would not feel so all alone. Everybody must get stoned.
Well, they'll stone you if you're an ox and gore a human.
If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned. Exodus 21:28
They'll stone you if you marry when not a virgin.
If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. Deuteronomy 22:13-21
They'll stone you if you worship other gods.
If there be found among you ... that ... hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them ... Then shalt thou ... tone them with stones, till they die. Deuteronomy 17:2-5
If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers ... thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 13:5-10
They'll stone you if you disobey your Pa.
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21
But I would not feel so all alone. Everybody must get stoned.
They'll stone you if you if you're a wizard or a witch.
A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:27
They'll stone you if you give Molech your kids.
Whosoever ... giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. Leviticus 20:2
They'll stone you if you if you're a sabbath breaker.
They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.... And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. Numbers 15:32-56
They'll stone you if you curse the dictator.
Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die. 1 Kings 21:10
But I would not feel so all alone. Everybody must get stoned.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Give me that old time religion!
It usually strikes me as funny when folks in the US are appalled that terrorists sometime behead their victims. Give me that over a stoning or having my skin burnt off by white phosphorus anyday.
Not that I'd care to sign up for any such treatment.
At least the fundamentalist and even literalists in this country know better than to ask for biblical law to be in force
Peace
Karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Karl- "biblical law"
bc et.el.
You know what Christians believe and what Christ preached..."Faith, Hope, Love, and the greatest of these is Love. Yet you continue to quote from the Old Testament!
Christ initiated a New Covenant with mankind! "Therefor be imitators of God as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you, and gave Himself up for us."
Go ahead quote the Old Testament laws...continue to Hate. "and you will be hated by all because of My name." Luke 21:17
You are just fulfilling prophecy!!!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Job believed in God but felt he was right before God!
Jesus makes us right before God, by His mercy and grace!
That's all I'm saying, that's what Jesus came to do!
One day I will stand before God and by His grace He'll see my through!
Only Jesus can stand before God for us or you stand before Him alone!
And as righteous as Job was, he felt unworthy before Him! Jesus is our
hope and salvation!
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dirtbag
climber
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Come, re-join the chosen people, we have more money and a better military.
What about your babes? Got any babes?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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paul roehl- "How can anyone, reasonably, claim to know the character of God?"
Did you read my post to You(5079)three pages back, at the bottom of the page??
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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777 wrote
You know what Christians believe and what Christ preached..."Faith, Hope, Love, and the greatest of these is Love. Yet you continue to quote from the Old Testament!
Christ initiated a New Covenant with mankind! "Therefor be imitators of God as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you, and gave Himself up for us."
Go ahead quote the Old Testament laws...continue to Hate. "and you will be hated by all because of My name." Luke 21:17
I'm in your camp with this one 777. I just hope you chime right up when fellow Christians preach on against gay marriage citing passages from Leviticus.
Peace
Karl
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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"When i became a man, I gave up childish things", 1st coronthians, 13
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Karl!
Thanks!
Back in the 80's(?), The woman at the center of Roe VS Wade(73'), became a Christian(and also her lover, another gal). The group of Christians that lead her to Christ, welcomed them with open arms. They just showered them with love.
As she, and her "lover" grew as Christians, they came to the realisation that their relationship wasn't right with God(it took two years)! Their was no brow beating, condemnation etc. We all fall short of the glory of God. Are dealing with our own issues. They came to the conclusion by letting God speak to their hearts, by reading and studying the Word etc.
It was realy an awesome testimony. She talked about how she wished she would have kept her baby(she gave it up for adoption)and wondered if any of the young kids going to school etc. was her boy. She really longed for him. Really sad.
She is a really awesome woman.
Only God can change a person's heart, transform it!!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Romans 4:7-8, “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
That pretty much covers all of us! All fall short of the glory of God, and He offers us redemption through Jesus the ONLY ONE without sin!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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WOW!!!
Nice pic two pages back, BTW.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Gobee!
Thanks for the appropriate Scripture verses!
About the "nice pic two pages back" that is an awesome shot! And the one before it that accompanies it! Looks like you shot a picture of the bivy, early morning, with snowfall during the night.
Looks like you were prepared. Where was it? Was it an epic??
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2010 - 07:42pm PT
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The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.
Albert Einstein, in a letter responding to philosopher Eric Gutkind, who had sent him a copy of his book Choose Life: The Biblical Call to Revolt; quoted from James Randerson, "Childish Superstition: Einstein's Letter Makes View of Religion Relatively Clear: Scientist's Reply to Sell for up to £8,000, and Stoke Debate over His Beliefs" The Guardian, (13 May 2008)
For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything "chosen" about them.
Albert Einstein, in a letter responding to philosopher Eric Gutkind, who had sent him a copy of his book Choose Life: The Biblical Call to Revolt; quoted from James Randerson, "Childish Superstition: Einstein's Letter Makes View of Religion Relatively Clear: Scientist's Reply to Sell for up to £8,000, and Stoke Debate over His Beliefs" The Guardian, (13 May 2008)
t was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
Albert Einstein, 1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Here is the difference betwixt the poet and the mystic, that the last nails a symbol to one sense, which was a true sense for a moment, but soon becomes old and false. For all symbols are fluxional; all language is vehicular and transitive, and is good, as ferries and horses are, for conveyance, not as farms and houses are, for homestead. Mysticism consists in the mistake of an accidental and individual symbol for an universal one.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Norton- "If something is in me that can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
Like I have stated before, this is exactly what God is stating in Romans!
"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so they are without excuse." Romans 1:20
Nature shows us a God of might, intelligence, and intricate detail; a God of order and beauty, a God who controls powerful forces. That is general revelation. He reveals His divine nature and personal qualities through creation, even though creations testimony has been distorted by the fall.
Not only are divine attributes seen in humanity, but they can be seen in the material universe as well! Nature itself speaks eloquently of its Creator. From the intricate design of the human cell to the majestic strength of the great mountain ranges of the world, to the universe which is unfolding above us.
"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows His handiwork." Psalm 19:1
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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No, Dr F, nobody can, or does, read those.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nature shows us a God of might, intelligence, and intricate detail; a God of order and beauty, a God who controls powerful forces.
Nature shows a lot of things of wonder, like protein folding, but shows nothing of god. I do believe you and others project god onto nature, however, and think you aren't giving nature her due.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2010 - 08:35pm PT
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The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Trip, You know what Christians believe and what Christ preached..."Faith, Hope, Love, and the greatest of these is Love. Yet you continue to quote from the Old Testament!
Christ initiated a New Covenant with mankind! "Therefor be imitators of God as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you, and gave Himself up for us."
Go ahead quote the Old Testament laws...continue to Hate. "and you will be hated by all because of My name." Luke 21:17
Don't the 10 Commandments come from the Old Testament? Exactly which parts of the OT are we supposed to toss?
Even Jesus claimed he wasn't against the laws and prophets of the OT 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
I don't think you should even be consorting on this forum with unbelievers - 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
I know, I'm a hater and I just don't get it. I'm with the antichrist according to the NT - 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Oh well.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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The answers to any questions of how, what, when, where, etc., do not require a god--though many will say that a god did this or that. We don't know all the answers, but we learn more everyday, and no process or discovery has ever shown the need for divine intervention.
The reason people believe in god is because they can't accept that "why are we here?" is a meaningless question with no answer; to their why questions they desperately need the answer "god has a plan."
So if god is the why for them then it must follow that it is also the ultimate answer to all the how, what, when, where, etc., questions as well, but it is all a house of cards built upon a fear. So they attack evolution and anything else that distances the god they believe in from the how, what, when, where, etc., because it makes their god seem less and less personal and perhaps less likely to have a plan for them.
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WBraun
climber
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Mental gymnastics, mental speculations and nihilism.
You can do better than that, Wanda
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Why does the universe have the values that it does? A very wide and diverse set of very precise values.
Lee Smolin, the physicist speaks of God (in a sense)as sitting at a big desk with one hundred diles. And each dile reflects one of the forces or values of the universe. There is the mass of the electron, the mass of the proton, the gravitational force, the electromagnetic force, the electroweak force, and so on and so on.
And the question is, why are those numbers set at exactly where they are? What if we were to go in and fool with the diles a little bit, change them a little bit? The scientist who asked this question came up with a very startling conclusion.
Not if you fooled with the diles 50%, or 20%, or even 1%. Steven Hawkins says with his brief history of the "Expansion of the Universe", that if you touch one of the diles(the expansion rate of the universe)and move it one part in a hundred thousand million million, we would have no Universe, no life!!
In other words constants and the values of the Universe seem to be fine tuned for...US!!! There is no Darwinian explanation for this.
Awcomes(sp)Razor, the logic of simplicity, would suggest that a Creator designed them that way. Is it even reasonable to suggest that the Universe and all its laws created themselves?
Modern science has spent the last 500 years excavating the intelligence built into the laws of nature. We live aparently in a rational universe that reflects extremely complicated laws. Keplers Laws of planetary motion, Newton's inverse square Law, Einstein E=MC2 and so on.
My question is, if our most brilliant scientist have spent a life time trying to decode intelligence out of nature, who put it there? Or how did it get there? Where did this intelligence come from? What is its explanation? What is your account for it, why does nature obey laws in the first place?
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Trip wrote, In other words constants and the values of the Universe seem to be fine tuned for...US!!! There is no Darwinian explanation for this.
And there wouldn't be. Biologic evolution is concerned with the diversity of life on earth, not the origin or values of the Universe.
Gotta love the Anthropic principle. Another bit of wishingful thinking. Sir Roger Penrose, the mathematical physicist, once said, "it tends to be invoked by theorists whenever they do not have a good enough theory to explain the observed facts." Stephen Jay Gould, Michael Shermer and others claim that the Anthropic Principle seems to reverse known causes and effects. Gould compared the claim that the universe is fine-tuned for the benefit of our kind of life to saying that sausages were made long and narrow so that they could fit into modern hotdog buns, or saying that ships had been invented to house barnacles. These critics cite the vast physical, fossil, genetic, and other biological evidence consistent with life having been fine-tuned through natural selection to adapt to the physical and geophysical environment in which life exists. Life appears to have adapted to physics, and not vice versa." (Wikipedia)
This is a type of Puddle Thinking...
Puddle thinking is an analogy coined by Douglas Adams to satirise the anthropic principle.[1][2] As quoted in Richard Dawkins' eulogy for Douglas Adams:
. . . imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it's still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be all right, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for.
Awcomes(sp)Razor, the logic of simplicity, would suggest that a Creator designed them that way.
Occam's razor would suggest the opposite. It is the principle that "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity" and the conclusion thereof, that the simplest explanation or strategy tends to be the best one. Why add a creator to our observations?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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bc!
Jesus Christ gave us a new law "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Kinda rules out the stoning laws eh??
5:17 "I come to fulfill".
He is the only one who could fulfill the law, He lived a sinless life!!
And Jesus stated that if you even look at a woman with lust, your guilty of adultry. Pretty difficult not to do without Christ ruling your life...eh?
And if you even get angry at another person, you are guilty of murder.
Yep...spirit of the Antichrist. That's what your espousing. "There is no God" Satan has you right in his pocket.
Another thing Antichrist/Satan hates...me here, on this forum.
Nice try bc. You are discernible.
But I do enjoy your company. Questions.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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So we can throw out Deuteronomy and Leviticus, and some of the rest, whatever doesn't fall into the candy-coated version of the Jesus story? Just pretend they never happened, huh?
"To every sadistic and bigoted moral code there is a season, and a time for every atrocity under heaven?"
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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The religious mystic is the ultimate nihilist in his declaration that all who do not believe as he does are cursed, trapped or dead.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Exactly cintune. How about it Trip, Gobee, anyone? What part of the OT is out and what is in?
And I'm not certain Jesus is all goodness and light...
"One of the things that is overlooked by many Christians is that there is a wrathful Jesus in the New Testament. Jesus comes out and condemns whole towns to fates worse than Sodom and Gomorrah for not liking his preaching(Matthew 11:21-24). You can find Jesus in some very foul moods." -- Sam Harris (I know, another puppet of the antichrist!)
(By the way I'm not a "hater", I'm actually rather tolerate of other viewpoints. One of my best climbing buddies is a xtian fundy. I've been called a "caveman" and some other name on this thread I can't remember, and now you've called me "discernible". Should I be offended?)
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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cintune!
Deuteronomy 6:13 "You shall fear only the Lord your God, worship Him and swear by His name." My favorite Bible verse!!
All I said is what the New Testement is. Jesus Christ came with a New Covenant, He died once and for all...no more yearly sacrifices etc. And He added a new commandment "you shall love your neighbor as yourself".
Love.
And suddenly bc demanding me unfit to... and I am being accused of throwing out the Old Testament?? I said nothing of the such.
Talking about jumping to conclusions.
The Anti-christ is alive and well.
I think it was this scripture that struck a nerve "and you will be hated by all because of My name."
I'm us to it...after 50+ yrs as a Christian.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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bc- "discernible"
I was referring to the Antichrist spirit, it is easily discernible.
I could have said perceptible.
Doesn't mean your a bad/evil person! Just duped into believing his lie.
I'm sure there are things that are discernible/perceptible about me. For instance I tend to procrastinate, I'm not very organised/slob, I'm a dirt-bag. Have a tendency to be cynical etc. etc.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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and I am being accused of throwing out the Old Testament?? I said nothing of the such.
You said the stoning laws were out. But Jesus never said that. So....?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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If Karl hadn't said it I was going to.
I agree with TripL7 that the atheists are using the Old Testament to skewer Christianity,
but
the Biblical literalists do the same thing all the time. They say they believe in a God of love and then proceed to threaten hell fire and brimstone based on the Old Testament.
Make a choice guys.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Cintune-
What Jesus said was to let anyone who had not sinned cast the first stone.
Same thing as outlawing it for his followers but way more clever and subtle.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan- "cast the first stone"
Thanks, well said!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Um, sure. And he also said ""Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
So which was it? Same go-round with "an eye for an eye" vs. "turn the other cheek." Exactly which parts of Mosaic law did Jesus/God unaccountably change his mind about, and which parts still stand? And if some parts got revised, why are they still in the Big Book?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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cintune- "I came to fulfill the law"
I just explained that...twice!! He fulfilled the Old Testament law by being the perfect sacrifice(without sin/unblemished lamb)once and for all. That is the New Covenant.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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That's not an explanation; it's changing the subject.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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cintune!
The point is your either under the law and will be judged by it or Jesus Christ will stand in your place.
As far as the Old Testament, they are obvious. Whatever ones fall under the Ten Commandments, and such ones in regards to loving and obeying God and your neighbor as yourself(they are covered/discussed in the New Testament). I just named one up-thread...Deut. 6:13 "You shall fear only the Lord your God...." Fear=revere/respect...
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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So that brings it back to sin all you want and then pull the Jesus card out on Judgement Day for a free pass into heaven, right?
See, that's just creepy.
Why not just try to do the right thing and be accountable for your failings to others, and then let "eternity" sort its own self out?
(Got to get some sleep now, there'll be snow to shovel in the morning.)
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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What are you talking about??
You sin all you want as a Christian and you will be one miserable, sick soul...or dead. Remember the verse I just quoted above..."You shall fear only..." And here is another one "To know Him is to love Him" If you love your wife you are not going to go out and cheat on her! It is even more so with Christ. We, the Church as a whole, are known as the "Bride of Christ". It is a love relationship.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"I came to fulfill the law"
Jesus fulfilled the law by paying the full price of judgement on the cross!
That we can now be granted into by His grace!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Cintune said:
And he also said ""Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
So which was it? Same go-round with "an eye for an eye" vs. "turn the other cheek." Exactly which parts of Mosaic law did Jesus/God unaccountably change his mind about, and which parts still stand? And if some parts got revised, why are they still in the Big Book?
Jesus and the early Christians lived in a particular space and time. No doubt Jesus would have had an even shorter than 3 year ministry if he had advocated overturning the Mosaic law altogether.
As it was, most people in his own ethnic group were not ready at that time to take it to a more subtle level, though many oppressed people in the pagan Roman empire were, much to the surprise of the early Jewish apostles who remained attached to their own tradition and so decided to keep large parts of it. In fact, a few modern day Christian churches have dropped the Old Testament altogether.
Judaism did not stand still however, as many modern day Christians seem to think, and eventually evolved their own kinder gentler interpretation of things but on their own terms without the large scale input of non Jewish pagans.
Personally, I've never met a Jewish person who took the Torah or Old Testament literally, although some portion of the 23% of Orthodox Jews in America probably do. I therefore find it mystifying why certain Christians need to interpret it literally. Some even go so far as to say that the Temple of Solomon must be rebuilt and animal sacrifice re-instituted before Jesus can come back?! Because these types of believers are the staunchest supporters of Israel, they are tolerated there even though their ideas are not supported by any modern Jew.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Paul-
Further upthread (I know going back is daunting) there was a long discussion about the differences between religion and spirituality and mysticism and literalism. If you had read it you would never equate mystics with litteral and intolerant religionists. In fact, mystics have been some of the major targets of the literalist contingent.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Does our bacterial and viral load go to heaven with us? Seems like they're being robbed if not given all they do for us.
About eight percent of human genetic material comes from a virus and not from our ancestors, according to a new study. The research shows that the genomes of humans and other mammals contain DNA derived from the insertion of bornaviruses, RNA viruses whose replication and transcription takes place in the nucleus.
That's one busy designer...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan wrote
Jesus and the early Christians lived in a particular space and time. No doubt Jesus would have had an even shorter than 3 year ministry if he had advocated overturning the Mosaic law altogether.
As it was, most people in his own ethnic group were not ready at that time to take it to a more subtle level, though many oppressed people in the pagan Roman empire were, much to the surprise of the early Jewish apostles who remained attached to their own tradition and so decided to keep large parts of it. In fact, a few modern day Christian churches have dropped the Old Testament altogether.
Judaism did not stand still however, as many modern day Christians seem to think, and eventually evolved their own kinder gentler interpretation of things but on their own terms without the large scale input of non Jewish pagans.
Personally, I've never met a Jewish person who took the Torah or Old Testament literally, although some portion of the 23% of Orthodox Jews in America probably do. I therefore find it mystifying why certain Christians need to interpret it literally. Some even go so far as to say that the Temple of Solomon must be rebuilt and animal sacrifice re-instituted before Jesus can come back?! However, because these types of believers are the staunchest supporters of Israel, they are tolerated there even though their ideas are not supported by any modern Jew.
That's a fine post Jan, and in line with the research I've been doing on the context of the bible. To understand what Jesus says, it's important to understand 1st century Judaism, the Roman context of occupied "Israel" and the pagan situation outside of the holy land where Christianity finally gained popularity. It didn't catch on nearly as strong around Jerusalam.
and one vivid controversy on the very early church was what to do about non-jews wanting to Join. Paul was all for it, the apostles were skeptical. Paul was bringing in the converts and won the day. One of the hotly contested topics concerned whether converts needed to become circumcised or not. Strong feelings on both sides. Getting circumcised would be a steep price of admission in pre-surgical times for grown men embracing Christianity. Some got snipped!
Fortunately, for many, Paul told the pagan Christians to spare the rod...
Peace
Karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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So Jan, does all this 'modern' re-interpretation mean you think Jesus was just a regular human, not of virgin birth, and not the son of god? Karl?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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healeyje-
I can only speak for myself and my thinking has been heavily influenced by 12 generations of Quakers on my mother's side and by my own life among Hindus and Buddhists for the past 30 years.
Personally, I think we are all sons and daughters of God and that we all have the potential to become like Jesus. He even said at one point, "Greater things than I have done, you can do".
Historically, I understand why the Apostle Paul developed the idea of Jesus as the substitutionary sacrifice based on animal sacrifices done in the Temple at Jerusalem during that time. However, I never agreed with that interpretation even as a small child. The word savior also never did much for me because I was never able to believe, even as a small child, that God needed his own son to be tortured and killed in order for humans to make spiritual progress. I have also always thought that we have to do most of the work ourselves, that there is no magical formula that can be said to make instant progress.
This does not mean however, that I think of Jesus as a mere man and I would never call him my buddy as some do. Rather, I see him as the way shower, as a guru and a Boddhisattva, and even an Avatar, if you know what those words mean.
I also see the major events in his life as external markers of internal mystical experiences that we all go through. Whether the virgin birth was an historical event or not, does not in the least change the message. I do see it as an internal event that all people of all religions must pass through however, in order to progress on the path.
Perhaps I am wrong in some of my interpretations, but since Jesus himself repeatedly said that our attitude and our actions are more important than our beliefs, I do not fear for the future. I also feel certain that many who have never heard his name, or do not call themselves his followers for various reasons, will be found to be closer to him than many who insist that their interpretation is the right one.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Hmmm, can't quite tell in all that if that's a yes with regards to son of god in the way most christians and the bible refer to him; or a no, he's just a regular human with a biological mother and father, albiet one who did some remarkable things with his life.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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OK, I'll go on record as saying I don't think he was just a regular human. What or who exactly he was, however, is way above my lowly level of understanding. That's why I just try to follow his teachings.
There is some interesting philsophical work being done in Asia however, by Christian missionaries, in terms of what they call the Cosmic Christ as opposed to the historical Jesus. This means their philosophy is getting very close to that of the Hindus who say that there have been numerous Avatars, incarnations of the second person of the trinity on this planet, and the Buddhists who say their have been multiple Buddhas and Boddhisattvas as well.
If I had to predict what will be the most common Christian interpretation of the significance of Jesus a couple of hundred years in the future, it would be of something similar. Christians of the future will be his followers because he speaks to them personally in a way that the others don't, not because they think he was the one and only.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Good morning. Snow has been duly shoveled, back to school....
So Jan, you clearly must be aware of Kuan Yin/Avalokitesvara? Thousands of years before Jesus was a twinkle in his mum's eye, right? The New Testament certainly doesn't have a lock on compassion and mercy, as if they never existed before. What it does claim to offer is the unsubstantiated "good news" of "eternal life," which has got to be the ultimate carrot on a stick, despite the fact that it's an oxymoronic concept. One can certainly understand the allure, but that's how all fantasies work.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Cintune-
Of course I'm aware of Avolokitesvara.
I just saw his incarnation the Dalai Lama, speak in Okinawa a few weeks ago.
I'm also aware that Confucius taught the Golden Rule 500 years before the birth of Jesus.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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So, then, one should revere the message, not the messenger, would be the point I'm suggesting.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Why not both?
But if one has to make a choice, then the message first.
I think that is what they all taught anyway, some more strongly than others.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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There is something to be said for the ban on idolatry, in that it tends to confuse the issue. The best religion has to offer are ideas that have promoted individual well being and social cohesion on strictly pragmatic grounds. The problems always arise when the teacher becomes more important than the lesson, and doing away with infidels takes precedence over recognizing our commonality. All in all, Buddhism gets the highest marks for avoiding this pitfall; while the monotheisms, well, not so much....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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I agree.
It's possible to revere Jesus and Mohammed as a Buddhist.
Unfortunately, Christians and Muslims are not so open minded about Buddha.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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HealyJ wrote
So Jan, does all this 'modern' re-interpretation mean you think Jesus was just a regular human, not of virgin birth, and not the son of god? Karl?
Jesus was already re-interpreted, soon after his death.
I'm not against Jesus being Son of God but I really have no way of knowing. My observation is that the Spirit can take the form that humans wish to relate to, so even if Jesus didn't exist, God might still act powerfully in the name of Jesus (sort of like if you had a baby girl who called you "Fo-Fo." and was hungry and called for food. You'd feed her.
Bottom Line..If you pray sincerely to Jesus, there will be a response if you aren't opposed to the answer you might get in advance.
It was too long ago and not well enough documented for me to confidently say I know anything about Jesus, Buddha or anybody else. Everything we 'need' to know can be experienced within, here and now (or at least after we get out of our own way)
PEace
Karl
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Trip, I guess the trouble a lot of us nonreligious types are having with Christians is that we find it hard to know who we're talking to. There are so many variations of Christianity. Church and personal interpretations vary. Literal to some, parable to others. God took six day for creation or God used billions of years with evolution as a tool. You guys are all over the map.
The Bible is contradictory in so many ways and vague about what is relevant. If the laws of the OT no longer apply, why do certain church leaders and members quote them to support there various postions? (rhetorical question) http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2008/03/cnnn-can-you-put-out-new-bible-with.html This seems dishonest at best.
This is one reason I find the whole thing exhausting and really not worth the trouble. It all seems so haphazard and nonsensical. You'd have thought God would have come up with a better way to get the word out.
I also notice that most of the difficult questions regarding God's omniscience and his omnipotence pretty much go unanswered. How is it God can create a universe, populate earth with humans knowing they will fall, let them continue on with much suffering only to kill them all in a flood, allow them to rebuild, and then suffer some more while waiting around for the end times? You can't claim he was surprised by any of this (he wouldn't be omniscient), or is it all just parable? Or are parts just parables? More vagueness. One count has god killing over 2 million people in the Bible (and that's not counting the flood! and of course he's responsible for death itself). Mysterious ways? I'd say the guy's certifiable. And the "good" stuff Jesus may or may not have said is nothing new. It predates him and I can follow those golden rules without following any religion.
BTW Science Magazine gave the Science Breakthrough of the Year to the discovery of Ardi!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Romans 6:23, For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Luke 1:37, For nothing will be impossible with God
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.2) By John MacArthur
http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
The Blessings of Wisdom
Proverbs 8:20, I traverse the way of righteousness, In the midst of the paths of justice
Proverbs 8:22-31, "The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.
I have been established from everlasting, From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water.
Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I was brought forth;
While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, Or the primeval dust of the world.
When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
When He established the clouds above, When He strengthened the fountains of the deep,
When He assigned to the sea its limit, So that the waters would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth,
Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him,
Rejoicing in His inhabited world, And my delight was with the sons of men.
To the Chief Musician. On the instrument of Gath.
A Psalm of David.
Psalms8, O Lord, our Lord, How excellent is Your name in all the earth, Who have set Your glory above the heavens!
Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants You have ordained strength, Because of Your enemies, That You may silence the enemy and the avenger.
When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, The moon and the stars, which You have ordained,
What is man that You are mindful of him, And the son of man that You visit him?
For You have made him a little lower than the angels, And You have crowned him with glory and honor.
You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet,
All sheep and oxen-- Even the beasts of the field,
The birds of the air, And the fish of the sea That pass through the paths of the seas.
O Lord, our Lord, How excellent is Your name in all the earth!
Sun and frozen rope ramen, a good combo!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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bc- "dwindling in unbelief:Holy Homosexuals"
I explained that yesterday(one page back) and Gobee 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 and Jan with her mention of "whomsoever is without sin, let him cast the first stone"(paraphrased) clarified that.
We are body, soul, and spirit! Your spirit is were Gods Spirit, the Holy Spirit, desires to unite with you.
I don't need to explain it over and over and over and over and over...............it is simple. Jesus is asking you to let Him in. You are making up 1,0001 excuses to not let Him in.
Ask Him in while you have time. The time is now.
Then He will show you whats right and wrong.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Quite the passive-aggressive mandate there.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Trip, Check. Got it - OT law is old news, and yet xtian pastors, etc. still drag parts of it out as biblical law to be followed or to form policy around. You may very well be one of those Christians who do not do this, I don't know. You may not believe in a 6000 y.o. earth, I don't know. That was one of the points of my last post. You people are too diverse to be understood clearly.
There are other issues to my post that again remain unaswered and I don't really expect you to answer them. Even if you do, it may only be what you and/or your church believe, but not what any of the other 33 to 38,000 different xtian denominations believe.
I am not making excuses for anything, just observing what I see as a total mismanagement of xtian thought. Despite what you think or believe, I have no need or interest in letting anyone "in", as I think the whole proposition is bogus. "Then He will show you whats right and wrong." According to whom?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jan, that 2:22 post was incredibly well siad.
I'm not convinced that Jesus was a more than a regular person, because I suspect that there was no physical Jesus. I think he is a construct of all the cool stuff we want to put on him. Which pretty much fits the stuff you are saying,
works for me...
Gobee, great down jacket/rope salad shot!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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bc!
I do understand what your saying.
Jesus didn't mean for it to be this way...but He prophesied it, and the condition of the "churches" religion. Just read the first 5-6 pages of Revelation. I have watched it unfold!
I was fortunate to come to know Him at an early age(8yrs). I had a very rudimentary knowledge of Him at that time. He claimed to be God, and He loved little children(that's about the extent of my knowledge of Jesus). I gave Him a try. I have had NO doubt since! He is God. Like I said, that was 50+ years ago.
It is amazing the difference between 1957-1968 and now.
EDIT: But Jesus states "I am the same, yesterday, today and forever!"
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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The foremost historian of the time Josephus(he lived in Jerusalem at the time), mentions Him and his crucifixion. It is documented!!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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I have faith that that, is not the case.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 8, 2010 - 01:50pm PT
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Any idea of how much money the Vatican holds in its treasury?
Wonder how much human misery could be relieved if the major churches
did as Jesus said to do, comfort the afflicted...and afflict the comfortable
Seems very hypocritical for religions to hoard cash.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I guess in the end - for me - is that from my own observations I see the principle role and root of religion and gods (all of them) is serving as a 'neutral' authority which can be used to establish and wield power. And I don't mean that in any negative way, but rather as a natural extension of competitive pressures among humans as social animals with a high level of reasoning.
As social animals, humans organize and require leadership that is determined through competition. Trust, ego, and dominance are all linked in that struggle for leadership. In social insects and animals, dominance, allegiance, respect, and loyalty have many roots and are typically established by either chemistry or raw physical dominance. Humans have reasoning and ego which complicate matters. As a species we still [unfortunately] often rely heavily on raw physical dominance - fear of violence - to establish leadership. But the more interesting aspect of human leadership comes with 'voluntary allegiance' in larger populations.
How do you organize and manage large populations in a voluntary way such that they can be led effectively? How do we escape rule-by-violence? I see religion and gods playing a role in establishing more peaceful ( or at least less violent) forms of 'voluntary' leadership. What role? The role of independent authority and that is where I see trust and ego coming into the equation. We all have egos which cause problems with trust. Egos clash around the question "why should I [voluntarily] trust you?" - which immediately leads to the second question "based on what authority".
How is authority established by other than physical dominance and violence? How is voluntary trust established when faced with two or more equally capable and authoritative egos? This gets at the heart of it for me. The introduction and invocation of a 'higher' authority detatched from any individual leader's personna and ego serves as a device to surmount the obstacles of human ego - it boils down to "look, why should I trust you over Bob" and "hey, don't trust me, trust Ra/Jesus/etc, I'm his representative.". It's a natural and more benevolent extension of a parent's employment of 'boogeyman' indirection, e.g. "don't fear me, fear the boogeyman". The use of such abstract, 'neutral', and detatched (unverifiable) 'higher' authorities (gods) also plays heavily into the [necessary and natural] social / tribal identity that is leveraged in leadership competitions and managing societies.
That's my take on the roots of religion - to surmount the issue of ego in assigning [leadership] trust in human populations above the size of small bands, and to give face to our fears of the unknown. To me it's the 'trick' of human civilizations, and one that evolved to deal with how to surmount ego in primitive human populations. That the need for this device still exists in educated societies I find lamentable if not sad, but also think we humans have proclivities towards complexity such that we endlessly invent and are entertained by the minutae of ritual. That tends to sustain religion along with the fact that we are still highly dependent on it to establish social identity in uneducated populations.
That religion still plays such a dominant role in human civilization makes me believe not in gods, but rather that trust issues, fear of the unknown, and ego are principle drivers of human evolution as social animals.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jaybro- "I have faith that that is not the case"
?
You can go to any place of higher learning ie. Stanford, Berkley, Harvard etc. and ask for one of Josephus's Books such as "The Antiquities of the Jews" or perhaps one on the Roman empire. He is the leading authority and excepted as such by these and many other institutions(university's). What is there to doubt?? Once again he states that Jesus lived and was executed. Even Chris Hitchen's admits this!
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MH2
climber
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Psalms8, O Lord, our Lord, How excellent is Your name in all the earth, Who have set Your glory above the heavens!
Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants You have ordained strength, Because of Your enemies, That You may silence the enemy and the avenger.
When I consider Your heavens,
Ever since Sunday school, I'd been intrigued by the notion of Eden. It irritated my Methodist teachers that Eden appealed to me far more than heaven. Heaven you might get to after your death, if you were good, but there was no hope, I was told, of finding Eden.
Heaven seemed boring, though. There is no mention of animals or plants there, whereas Eden was full of them. In Eden, the animals spoke (at least the snake did), and we understood what they said. In heaven you had to live in a building ("In my Father's house there are many mansions", Jesus said), and I wanted to live in a hollow tree.
In Eden there were not too many people (only two) whereas heaven sounded like it would be miserably crowded, considering everyone who thought they were going there. It would surely be even worse by the time I got there, if indeed I were headed in that direction - of which my Sunday school teachers weren't so sure. To their dismay, I also stubbornly refused to blame the snake for all the trouble with Adam and Eve. I suspected God did too. After all, He kicked the people out of Eden, but He let the snake stay.
p144
The Good Good Pig
Sy Montgomery
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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"There are no verifiable facts about Jesus of Nazareth. The handful in Flavius Josephus, upon which everyone relies are suspect, because he had been Joseph ben Matthias, a leader of the Jewish revolt, who saved his own life by fawning upon the emperors: Vespasian, Titus, Domitian. Once you have proclaimed Vespasian as the messiah, no one again ought to believe anything you write about your own people. Josephus, a superb liar looked on calmly as Jerusalem was captured, its temple destroyed, its inhabitants slaughtered." -- Harold Bloom from "Jesus and Yahweh"... a book all Christians and all believers should read.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Paul- "Harold Bloom, "Jesus and Yahweh"
Thanks, I'll check it out.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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MH2!
Actually Christ is going to set up His kingdom up here on earth for 1,000 thousand years. Repopulate the earth and there will be all kinds of animals! "The lion will lay down with the lamb...+ And there is another verse about a baby playing harmlessly on top of the Adders(snake)nest.
We, believers, past and present, will have body's like Christ had after the Resurrection. And a whole universe to explore(I imagine).
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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And there is another verse about...
I'm guessing this makes you in the biblical literalists camp - is that correct?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Yep!
If Jesus Christ created the universe as the Bible claims, He is quit capable of getting His love letter to mankind intact from generation to generation. "The grass withers, and the flowers fade, but the word of our God stands forever." Isaiah 40:8
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I guess in the end - for me - is that from my own observations I see the principle role and root of religion and gods (all of them) is serving as a 'neutral' authority which can be used to establish and wield power.
Religion has absolutely been used for political power, doesn't mean there isn't an ultimate spiritual being. Sex and Love have all kinds of levels to them, from acquisition and manipulation to deep Love.
777 wrote
Actually Christ is going to set up His kingdom up here on earth for 1,000 thousand years. Repopulate the earth and there will be all kinds of animals! "The lion will lay down with the lamb...+ And there is another verse about a baby playing harmlessly on top of the Adders(snake)nest.
Let's hope in the transfigured world, the animals still can't speak cause I know the lions will be complaining about the food and the adders will be bored to tears...
;-)
Karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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At the battle of Armageddon, man would wipe out mankind if God did not intervene!
God is not going to destroy the world, end of the world, as you here so often!
Dr-F!
You have so much faith in that some day science will solve their dilema as to were matter came from!! Who created matter? How can you get something from nothing?
But yet deny the possibility of a designer Creator!!
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Who created matter? How can you get something from nothing?
but questions of how your god could have existed forever and created everything with its thought don't seem to be a problem for you.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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monolith!
I know you can't comprehend this, but God is capable of revealing Himself to you in a very powerful way if you ask Him to.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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"This thread is supposed to be about evo..."
Check out the title "Creationist...."
I just answer questions...correct fallacy's!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Speaking of evolution, religions on this planet have evolved too, along with our subsistence base.
(All early dates are based on Homo sapiens in the Middle East, later ones on Europe)
Hunting and Gathering 50,000 - 8,000 B.C.
Pastoralism 8,000 - 6,000
Horticulture 6,000 - 5,000
These subsistence modes featured a combination of three belief systems
Animism - nature worship; Everything alive is close to God juat by virtue of being alive
Mythological - creation accounts; one's own tribe or ethnic group is believed to be closer to God.
Magical religions - contact with spirits; Certain specialists, shamans, had unusual attributes which made them closer to the spirits and God.
Agriculture 6,000 -
Growth of Reverential religions which emphasize the distance between God and humans and the need for priests and religion as intermediaries. The basis of all the major religions today. The legitimacy of the religious leaders is based on literacy - knowledge of scriptures and ritual.
Industrial Age 1800 -
Secular Isms and Ologies. Explanations based on social science and the idea that reordering the political and economic institutions of society will do better than religion and make it obsolete.
Post Industrial 1960 -
The search for individual spirituality as opposed to institutional religion. Emphasis on experience of the transcendant rather than dogma.
-The big challenge for the religions of the agricultural age is to modernize for the post industrial era. Many think they will do better at this than in confronting science and political/economic idealogies. After all, their founders started out as individuals seeking spirituality as opposed to religion.
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MH2
climber
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When sweet and bitter
mingled together, no reed was plaited, no rushes
muddied the water,
the gods were nameless, natureless, futureless, then
from Apsu and Tiamat
in the waters gods were created, in the waters
silt precipitated
excerpt from The Babylonian Creation
probably composed in the 12th century B.C.
Religions change, inevitably, and the Christian world view will one day be no more familiar to people than the epic of Gilgamesh is to us today.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Well said Jan and MH2. We could very well end this thread right here.
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MH2
climber
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Sure.
Well, almost.
By one measure the creationists have not run to the dugout and are actually ahead in the game. I was trying to follow up a question about Ardi and googled for 'Ardi DNA', and links number two and three mocked scientists because Ardi had changed their ideas on primate evolution. Therefore, "Scientists have been wrong all along! " Links 2 and 3 were to the same article by Do-While Jones.
http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org/v14i2f.htm
On the other side, CBC science commentator Bob McDonald, visiting Rwanda:
Chimps are harder to see in the forest because they spend most of their time high up in the trees, although we did see one male sitting on a log by himself in a pose that looked like deep thought. I jokingly wondered if he was contemplating the universe, but the guide said he had probably lost a fight and was figuring out what to do next.
http://www.cbc.ca/technology/quirks-blog/2009/10/ardipithecus_ramidus_she_looke.html
But with a little more specifity, 'Ardi FOXP2'
AK's Rambling Thoughts
http://artksthoughts.blogspot.com/2009/06/foxp2-evolving-human-intelligence.html
I have no idea who AK is, but the possibility that a significant part of the language difference between humans and chimps is one or two amino acid differences on a gene-regulating protein will make any Ardi chromosome 7 of high interest. Neanderthal DNA shows the human alleles for FOXP2.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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I guess in the end, Jesus was crazy, a liar, or He was who He said He was!
And as a Christian we are deluded and wasted our own lives on nothing or there is an all powerful God of the Bible that does what He says He will do!
The charm of this life won't keep me here even if there is no God, for me there is no where else to go, I've made my choice, I'm with Jesus!
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apogee
climber
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"And as a Christian we are deluded and wasted our own lives on nothing or there is an all powerful God of the Bible that does what He says He will do!"
Is that supposed to be a question? Or do you already know the answer?
"The charm of this life won't keep me here even if there is no God, for me there is no where else to go, I've made my choice, I'm with Jesus!"
The 'charm of this life won't keep you here' because you are a human being with an average US lifespan of 76.2 years. Make the most of it.
If you want to go with Jeebus, I'm cool with that. Just shut the f*ck up about it and enjoy yourself.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Gobee- "I am with Jesus."
Well said Gobee...I am with Jesus too!
"For me and my house will serve the Lord"
"Jesus is Lord."
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"For me and my house will serve the Lord"
How blessed we are to serve the one true and living God!
Each day to live with Him in mind, and to thank Him, and to do His will as we understand it through the Bible, it gives our life purpose and meaning, the high calling of God!
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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MH2 By one measure the creationists have not run to the dugout and are actually ahead in the game.
By what measure? Quantity? Maybe I should post Origin of the Species just to catch up with Gobee's cut and paste posts.
As for the scientists against evolution website material, I'm almost certain that they are quote mining and misintepreting the data and comments by the scientists involved. Standard issue when new data comes out and the implications are not fully understood yet.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Got Richard Dawkins newest book, The Greatest Show on Earth, for Christmas. It's not his best book (I've read them all), but it's the first where he takes on all of the criticisms of evolution and presents the overwhelming evidence for it. And it IS overwhelming. So overwhelming that any refutation can only be of the I'm going to take the leap of faith and believe in the bible instead type. This type of believer is on par with with Muslim fundamentalists, in my opinion.
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WBraun
climber
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Evolution is always accepted and bonafide.
What is the big problem?
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Not always, see Kansas Board of Education, Dover, etc.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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What we know in science is provisional, and changes and adapts as we gather new observational evidence. The fossil record is growing but is not continuous. While we have ideas about what is happening in these time "gaps" there is nothing like having actual data to guide our thinking.
In the video clip from Science that I provided a link to above, the anthropologists were discussing their surprise over Ardi's hands, which they thought would be more adapted to knuckle walking. This wouldn't be such a crazy guess since both Chimpanzees (gen. Pan) and Gorillas (gen. Gorilla) knuckle walk, and the cladistics have Gorilla branching off from the common Pan and Homo lines before Pan and Homo diverge... the inference being that knuckle walking was an earlier shared trait.
That doesn't seem to be so.
Now also mentioned was the lack of Pan fossils, and I suspect of Gorilla fossils too, which would help to fill in the evolutionary story. Until these are found, we will try to infer the characteristics of this development. Hopefully, we'll confront our ideas with real data at some future date when the data is available.
Scientists often say things like "it changed our whole way of thinking about things" once such discoveries are made, even on seemingly small points. They are saying this because a scientist may spend their entire career studying a very specific feature with little data... Getting the data can provide a huge change in the specific study, but not overthrow the entire body of work done in the field. It is a surprise to the researchers, but often a non-event in other areas.
The creationists and the biologists have very different theories for the existence of life on planet earth.
Both of these theories are consistent with the empirical evidence.
Creationists construct their theory to be in agreement with the evidence. It provides no predictive capability for the domain of life. All creationist theories are absolute and do not change or adapt to new data.
Evolutionary theory is used in a predictive manner and provides a structure for the discipline of biology, it is biology's organizing principle. Consistent with empirical data, and adaptable to new data, but also providing predictions on where to look. It is provisional because not all is known.
As biology explains more and more about life, and as biologist become more adept at manipulating biological systems, there is a natural tension that arises between the domain of religion, where all creationist thought is centered, and science, where biology is a part of the foundation. The path of scientific investigation is guided by curiosity, and proceeding down that path takes small steps. After some time, one might find oneself very far out on the frontier, and doing very consequential research. The motivation is almost always a simple child like question "how do I understand this?" and not usually of really big things but of little things.
How does a Monarch butterfly navigate over the continent. It is a seemingly simple insect. One can propose all sorts of explanations... and test them. First there was the observation that the length of day was involved. This infers an interaction between an internal clock and the sun-position. In http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2003/0527butterfly.shtml the final quote is: "The light input pathways are quite distinct, so tracking those pathways in may eventually lead us to the cellular level where this clock-compass interaction is occurring." Then 6 years later we read the report: Antennal Circadian Clocks Coordinate Sun Compass Orientation in Migratory Monarch Butterflies.
Abstract: During their fall migration, Eastern North American monarch butterflies (Danaus plexippus) use a time-compensated Sun compass to aid navigation to their overwintering grounds in central Mexico. It has been assumed that the circadian clock that provides time compensation resides in the brain, although this assumption has never been examined directly. Here, we show that the antennae are necessary for proper time-compensated Sun compass orientation in migratory monarch butterflies, that antennal clocks exist in monarchs, and that they likely provide the primary timing mechanism for Sun compass orientation. These unexpected findings pose a novel function for the antennae and open a new line of investigation into clock-compass connections that may extend widely to other insects that use this orientation mechanism.
http://stke.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/sci;325/5948/1700
as the scientists tease understanding out of their studies. Not only do they provide an explanation, in detail about this navigational ability, but also an understanding of how the adaptation might take place, and so how this adaptation might exist in other organisms.
While it is breathtaking to imagine the heroic migration of these beautiful creatures as guided by some unseen force of nature to some. To me it is more breathtaking in it's apparent simplicity and in the affirmation of the general tenants of biology, the major one of which is evolution.
Once again we find the language of surprise in the abstract, Eureka!, so famously uttered by Archimedes, and as scientists we look forward to those moments. Sometimes they are deeply felt serenity of finally knowing something, sometimes they are nervous moments of uncertainty. But those are the moments of reward, the understanding of a thing.
And all of those little moments add up. Not guided to a point, but open to what is, literally expanding out into the universe.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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The creationists and the biologists have very different theories for the existence of life on planet earth.
Both of these theories are consistent with the empirical evidence.
Uh... no, they're not.
Unless an old book full of garbled contradictions counts as empirical evidence.
But it doesn't.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Gobee wrote
I guess in the end, Jesus was crazy, a liar, or He was who He said He was!
And as a Christian we are deluded and wasted our own lives on nothing or there is an all powerful God of the Bible that does what He says He will do!
The charm of this life won't keep me here even if there is no God, for me there is no where else to go, I've made my choice, I'm with Jesus!
Actually, there are a lot of "inbetween" possibilities that involve the text and interpretation of Jesus. Each gospel paints a different picture if you look at them separately and Paul's version is quite different than the words of Christ himself. Nothing was written while he was with them.
add to that, our knee jerk acceptance of Jesus as some tie-wearing, church pet rather than the critical-of-the-status-quo reformer that turned the table on the moneychangers. I don't see many Christians embracing those types anymore. Better be sure that you'd even listen to a modern day Jesus if he came and go against common interpretations of Religion or if you would hang on to dogma like the holy Pharisees did.
Peace
Karl
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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cintune I once believed as you do, but the essence of the religious argument are essentially a construction to agree with what is known of the last 10,000 years (give or take) that is a part of the human direct experience as passed down from generation to generation.
The details as written are open to interpretation, including a literal reading. However, the arguments are all the same: the creation of the universe is a divine act. Further, the ability for the divine to act is inferred, and our inability to understand how it happens is also inferred from the proposition that since we think it cannot be done, we can't understand how it is done.
But as an argument, there is no refuting it.
What makes it sterile is the fact that it explains what is, but does not have any predictive ability. If some divine force creates the universe, and we cannot understand that creation, the only thing we can do is wait for the truth to be revealed by this divinity. We are powerless to understand it.
There are variations, but it is the essence of the creationists' point.
We can get into detail on whatever religious text you choose, whether or not the facts are correct... but I think it is an irrelevant exercise, and badly fails as a strategy in this particular debate, there are people a whole lot more knowledgeable about these text than I ever will be, I am not going to debate them on the meanings of those texts.
However, those texts are taken as immutable truths. And the creationists argue that those are the truths. Unfortunately for them, our knowledge of the universe expands beyond the domain of what was known when those truths were written, and it is necessary to translate those "ancient" texts in such a way to explain new findings.
In science, it works the other way, with the theories pointing the way to new knowledge, and a way of incorporating those new findings into the growing body of knowledge.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Good points, but the didactic nature of creationist accounts does tend to ignore the necessity of any argument from other than authority. The notable exception, of course, lies in the Vedic approach, which is admirably noncommittal:
Then was not non-existence nor existence: there was no realm of air, no sky beyond it. What covered in, and where?.... Who knows then whence it first came into being? He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it, Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not. -(Rig Veda 10.129.1-7)
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MH2
climber
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Scientists often say things like "it changed our whole way of thinking about things" once such discoveries are made, even on seemingly small points.
Yes. The "creation science" website I found high on the Google list was only using a specious debating tactic when they implied that by accommodating new evidence scientists had, "been wrong all this time!" I did not foresee the need to comment on how ridiculous that suggestion is.
Organized religion is vulnerable to conservative and repressive influences. George Orwell's Animal Farm could easily have been about religion.
Much much better to consider the Monarch butterfly or the solitary wasp.
"Those who believe in telekinesis, raise my hand."
Kurt Vonnegut
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Much better to consider the Monarch butterfly or solitary wasp..."
Yes, let's consider how the M. butterfly does manage to get from Canada and fly south to a very specific part of the Sierra Madre Mt's. deep into Mexico. Winter their, and return to Canada with only a few weeks to live to produce the next generation.
We (Homo sapiens)require maps/GPS just to get across town!
They took a batch of M. butterflies that they captured in Kansas(during migration)and brought them to the east coast, and released them. Initially they flew for about 100 miles south, then suddenly made a 90 degree turn towards KC, flew west for about 1,000 miles and then resumed their journey south(as per PBS show on the M. butterfly).
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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. . . obviously it must be that the invisible hand of god carries them . . .
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Wanda!
Or maybe if we start to include M. butterfly's in our diet, or exstract some of their dna and...we wouldn't need maps and gps and our God given brains to just git across town.
Sure would be nice back-up the next time we get lost somewhere, like the vast Sonoran Desert(which the M. butterfly crosses).
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Or how about another species...the Chinook salmon.
The Chinook salmon will travel as far as 2,500 miles at sea(Pacific Ocean)and remain at sea for 4-7 years, before returning to its place of birth.
Think about this. Fish they tagged returned to the exact spot of their spawning. Across the ocean fighting various currents and conditions up rivers down streams past dozens of tributaries until they found the precise one that led to there respective point of origination. Not following each other down their various paths, but to their specific point of origination or spawning. As do the other four category of Pacific salmon(coho etc.)and steelhead trout.
Something to marvel at considering our own pathetic pathfinding abilities.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I think the point I was trying to make, is that this happens in a quite understandable way, without resort to any heavenly assistance, either along the trip, or in the capability.
While we humans may have an idea of how it is so complicated to do, we miss the simpler, more subtle ways that these attributes find by evolved adaptation.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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You can look at these awe-inspiring things and you can just assume it's all part of some wonderful, incomprehensible god-magic, or you could go to google and type in "monarch butterfly migration biological mechanism" and see if you can learn something.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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wanda!
I have been to those sites many times, along with different documentaries such as the one carried by PBS recently.
And we all continue to marvel...that is what I had to say.
Your making an implication wanda!
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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I don't know what an "imlication" is, but I guess I am making my own assumptions.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Wanda!
Sorry, my keys stick on my laptop keyboard, especially the 'p' key. I was inferring that you were implying that I ...forget it!!
What a marvelous world we live in.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Wanda- "and see if you learn something"
I have over 250+ semester units at the graduate/post-graduate level in a couple of our finest centers of higher learning(Universities).
A majority of which are in the sciences! I have a very open mind...do you?
EDIT: And I learned alot, but I am wise enough to realise that science does not have ALL the answers!!
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WBraun
climber
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Dr F -- "But Science can prove the absence of a God"
Impossible!!!
Can never ever be done. EVER!!!
Science itself is one aspect of God himself!
It's impossible to eliminate God. God is even the act of eliminate.
God is everything, and still he's ONE .....
acintya bheda bheda tattva >>> simultaneous oneness and difference
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jesus gave His life for us...
Come to Me, and I Will Give You Rest
Matthew 11"25-30 At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
Woes to the Pharisees and Lawyers
Luke 11:37-53, While Jesus was speaking, a Pharisee asked him to dine with him, so he went in and reclined at table. The Pharisee was astonished to see that he did not first wash before dinner. And the Lord said to him, “Now you Pharisees cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. You fools! Did not he who made the outside make the inside also? But give as alms those things that are within, and behold, everything is clean for you.
“But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, and neglect justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. Woe to you Pharisees! For you love the best seat in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces. Woe to you! For you are like unmarked graves, and people walk over them without knowing it.”
One of the lawyers answered him, “Teacher, in saying these things you insult us also.” And he said, “Woe to you lawyers also! For you load people with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers. Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets whom your fathers killed. So you are witnesses and you consent to the deeds of your fathers, for they killed them, and you build their tombs. Therefore also the Wisdom of God said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and persecute,’ so that the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it will be required of this generation. Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter yourselves, and you hindered those who were entering.”
As he went away from there, the scribes and the Pharisees began to press him hard and to provoke him to speak about many things, lying in wait for him, to catch him in something he might say.
A Big tip of the old hard hat to you Christians posting up here!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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The PBS show is very good, and I applaud the honesty of the scientist involved for including the segment regarding the demonstration of the theory that the M. butterfly was following the Sun's ray's south or wind currents etc. But their experiment of relocating the butterfly's 1,000 mi east at the New Jersey shore, and expecting the butterfly's to follow the Sun directly South failed. And they admitted so.
And they marveled at the fact that the butterlies went against all odds(trade winds over the Atlantic etc.)to fly west. And at a point just below where they were gathered/taken off course, resume their Southerly migration!
Next time PBS programs it, watch it for yourself!!
Just saying, it is fascinating...no matter how you look at it.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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The Monarch butterfly starts as a cocoon, and does not know the life of a butterfly, Jesus said you must be born again!
You Must Be Born Again
John 3:1-15, Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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I'm guesssin' it will turn out to following the magnetic fluxes for salmon and M Butterfly. and sharks whales and various migratory birds, etc
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Probably right Jaybro.
Dr. F, I'm pretty sure science can neither prove nor disprove the existence of god(s). No one can. We are all mental speculators concerning this topic (can I use this phrase Werner, or have you copyrighted it).
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WBraun
climber
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Nobody would even exist or be alive if it wasn't for God.
Only a fools who are totally blind do not understand.
This is an absolute fact.
God has been proven eternally and now and will be in future forever.
Who cares for some nobody/nobodies, rascals, saying that God does not exist.
All fools and rascals can not see because they're blind as hell .....
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dr. F, nothing that can be observed, seen or detected
Therefore God does not exist
Argument from ignorance? The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Argument from ignorance
The two most common forms of the argument from ignorance, both fallacious, can be reduced to the following form:
1. Something is currently unexplained or insufficiently understood or explained, so it is not (or must not be) true.
2. Because there appears to be a lack of evidence for one hypothesis, another chosen hypothesis is therefore considered proven. Wikipedia
I wish science could do something about this, but because there is no evidence or experiments we can turn to, we cannot come to any satisfactory conclusion. I regard myself as a atheist concerning all the named gods and world religions. I don't care what people believe or how they spend (waste) their time. However, it pisses me off when they try to introduce religion into classrooms or wrongly modify textbooks. Religion has no place in public policy in a pluralistic society like ours. I'm agnostic concerning the existence of god(s). I reserve a very, very, very small percentage of possibly for the existence of god. Who knows, we may yet find a unicorn.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Dr.F.- "...what does God do?"
He gives to each a measure of faith.
It is up to you to utilise it. And then He will prove Himself to you!
It is not possible for any mere man to prove or disprove the existence of God. We can make strong testimony for/or against.
But only He can reveal Himself to you.
He does it on an individual/personal level.
It is a free gift.
You either ask and receive...or reject/deny.
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MH2
climber
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But only He can reveal Himself to you.
He does it on a individual/personal level.
Do you think He shows any geographic or cultural bias in where and how He does this?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 10, 2010 - 12:12am PT
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Dr. F,
Maybe we just don't have ways to detect God the way you are talking about yet?
Like radio and TV waves before we discovered them?
Just because we can't see Him in are physical dimension you should think that is possible?
Look how motion pictures went from film to digital and Blu-Ray and that's not the end?
God only let Moses see Him after He passed by, in the physical body Moses would have died!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 10, 2010 - 12:19am PT
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Do you think He shows any geographic or cultural bias..."
None what soever.
Christianity in China S. America, Indonesia and other third world country's is exploding. S. Korea has church's that # in the hundreds of thousands and the vast majority of Christians belong to home/underground churches.
Compared to America(USA)which the rest of the world is booming(other than Europe which declared Christianity dead)and now is flourishing with Islamic Fundies!!! Go figure!
"God is no respecter of men."
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MH2
climber
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Jan 10, 2010 - 12:28am PT
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Do you think He shows any geographic or cultural bias..."
None what soever.
Do you see the circularity, then? Or how do you account for Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, etc?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 10, 2010 - 12:54am PT
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Buddhist, Hindus, Muslim, Catholicism, and the other"religions" including various forms "Christianity" are just that religions.
Religion=man working his way to God! Actually they look at themselves and say I'm not like them, I'm a good guy I do this, I do that, I have never done that. Or I was born a Christian, we are all(relatives)Christians, I have gone to church/belonged all my life. I, I, I...
If there was a Rapture of the church tonight, God took all the Christians on earth away. The churches in America would still be filled with "christians" tomorrow(many, not all).
"Many are called, few are chosen."(many choose not to answer His call)
I am talking about a relationship, not a religion!
God reaching down to man.
Not man working his way up to God.
Like I said, the rest of the world is flourishing.
And it's not over yet.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 10, 2010 - 10:03am PT
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Serve the Lord with gladness.
Psalms 100:2
Delight in divine service is a token of acceptance. Those who serve God with a sad countenance, because they do what is unpleasant to them, are not serving Him at all; they bring the form of loyalty, but the life is absent. Our God requires no slaves to grace His throne; He is the Lord of the empire of love, and would have His servants dressed in the uniform of joy.
The angels of God serve Him with songs, not with groans; a murmur or a sigh would be a mutiny in their ranks. That obedience that is not voluntary is disobedience, for the Lord looks at the heart, and if He sees that we serve Him from force, and not because we love Him, He will reject our offering.
Service coupled with cheerfulness is heart-service and therefore true. Take away joyful willingness from the Christian, and you have removed the test of his sincerity. If a man be driven to battle, he is no patriot; but he who marches into the fray with flashing eye and beaming face, singing, "It is sweet for one's country to die," proves himself to be sincere in his patriotism.
Cheerfulness is the support of our strength; in the joy of the Lord are we strong. It acts as the remover of difficulties. It is to our service what oil is to the wheels of a railway carriage. Without oil the axle soon grows hot, and accidents occur; and if there be not a holy cheerfulness to oil our wheels, our spirits will be clogged with weariness.
The man who is cheerful in his service of God proves that obedience is his element; he can sing,
Make me to walk in your commands,
It's a delightful road.
Reader, let us put this question--do you serve the Lord with gladness? Let us show to the people of the world, who think our religion to be slavery, that it is to us a delight and a joy! Let our gladness proclaim that we serve a good Master.
Truth For Life - Pastor Alistair Begg
http://www.truthforlife.org/
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Truth_for_Life/archives.asp?bcd=2010-1-8
Psalm 100
A Psalm of Thanksgiving.
1 Make a joyful shout to the LORD, all you lands!
2 Serve the LORD with gladness;
Come before His presence with singing.
3 Know that the LORD, He is God;
It is He who has made us, and not we ourselves;
We are His people and the sheep of His pasture.
4 Enter into His gates with thanksgiving,
And into His courts with praise.
Be thankful to Him, and bless His name.
5 For the LORD is good;
His mercy is everlasting,
And His truth endures to all generations.
Why Do You Hide Yourself?
Psalm 10, Why, O Lord, do you stand far away?
Why do you hide yourself in times of trouble?
2 In arrogance the wicked hotly pursue the poor;
let them be caught in the schemes that they have devised.
3 For the wicked boasts of the desires of his soul,
and the one greedy for gain curses and renounces the Lord.
4 In the pride of his face the wicked does not seek him;
all his thoughts are, “There is no God.”
5 His ways prosper at all times;
your judgments are on high, out of his sight;
as for all his foes, he puffs at them.
6 He says in his heart, “I shall not be moved;
throughout all generations I shall not meet adversity.”
7 His mouth is filled with cursing and deceit and oppression;
under his tongue are mischief and iniquity.
8 He sits in ambush in the villages;
in hiding places he murders the innocent.
His eyes stealthily watch for the helpless;
9 he lurks in ambush like a lion in his thicket;
he lurks that he may seize the poor;
he seizes the poor when he draws him into his net.
10 The helpless are crushed, sink down,
and fall by his might.
11 He says in his heart, “God has forgotten,
he has hidden his face, he will never see it.”
12 Arise, O Lord; O God, lift up your hand;
forget not the afflicted.
13 Why does the wicked renounce God
and say in his heart, “You will not call to account”?
14 But you do see, for you note mischief and vexation,
that you may take it into your hands;
to you the helpless commits himself;
you have been the helper of the fatherless.
15 Break the arm of the wicked and evildoer;
call his wickedness to account till you find none.
16 The Lord is king forever and ever;
the nations perish from his land.
17 O Lord, you hear the desire of the afflicted;
you will strengthen their heart; you will incline your ear
18 to do justice to the fatherless and the oppressed,
so that man who is of the earth may strike terror no more.
Creationists Take Another...
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MH2
climber
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Jan 11, 2010 - 04:26am PT
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Psalm 10, Why, O Lord, do you stand far away?
Why do you hide yourself in times of trouble?
Good question, eh Gobee?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 11, 2010 - 08:35am PT
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1 Timothy 4:7-8, Rather train yourself for godliness; for while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come.
1 Corinthians 9:24-26, Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air.
1 Timothy 6:11-12, Pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness. Fight the good fight of the faith.
God, thank you for this day!
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.1) By John MacArthur
http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 11, 2010 - 11:26am PT
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answer my one question, what does God Do???
and the answer is; nothing that can be observed, seen or detected
Therefore God does not exist, end of story
Let's say you have a dream. What could the characters in your dream say you are doing? How would they go about proving that you exist? You can't be seen because you are the source of everything seen, you encompass and create all.
Peace
Karl
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jstan
climber
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Jan 11, 2010 - 12:12pm PT
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After two millennia of looking for evidence that a god, any god, has had a direct effect on the material world and finding none, one can surely say it is an unusual problem. Can we think of any other area where we have made so little progress in 2000 years?
Now we hear the supposition, and it is only a supposition, that god does not want us or at least any but the selected few, to see god. But the bible provides many tales of miracles in the material world precisely to convince us god does have material effect. Has god adopted a change of strategy? Two thousand years ago we were supposed to see god? Now god is not so sure? Or is the ability to see god something given only to the chosen few now? Maybe there is a fee for this ability?
We might consider this new supposition more seriously if the supposer could give a plausible reason for god’s change in strategy.
Now our inability to see god makes arguable the theory that we merely lack the technical means to do so. (Please note this is a something that can be said regarding ANY unsupported proposition.) If you will, it is a “freebie” requiring nothing from the person advancing it. It does not get around the point that in the absence of material evidence for the existence of a god
there is no downside in the material world for conducting one’s life normally, while we wait for that evidence.
The burden of proof does not reside with us.
The oldest way of “winning” a completely unwinnable argument is to slide the burden of proof over to the other person. Science has not the burden of showing a god does not exist. The burden of proof resides with those who assure us they are the earhly agents of this nonmaterial entity and we will burn in hell for eternity if we do not follow their orders.
In that context the perpetual effort by believers to defeat the separation of church and state, is entirely understandable. By this means god( the agents) can be given a potent impact on the material world.
Mind you god has done nothing to cause us to believe he wishes the church and state to be joined. Indeed there are statements to the contrary in the bible. Since he is supposed to be all-knowing you have to think god considered and rejected that idea.
So we have to presume this goal of confusion between church and state is the idea of these earthly agents and may in fact be contrary to god’s will – if there is a god at all.
If there is a hell, a lot of the people in it may have surprised expressions on their faces.
Now here is the true argument in which we are engaged. While we are here on earth it is not arguable that we have no responsibilities to each other. Even the bible says we have these responsibilities. We need to treat each other fairly. So here is the question.
If it makes me feel good to “believe” something or other, am I treating you fairly when I follow the orders of an earthly agent to deprive you of something that is manifestly your’s?
Manifestly yours?
The golden rule predates most of the Aramaic period.
Instead of ever expanding
is not our wisdom in fact shrinking?
If so, it is up to us to do something about it.
That burden cannot be argued away.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 11, 2010 - 12:58pm PT
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nice John,
give unto jstan what is jstan's
now we'll endure another set of Gobee bombs...
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 11, 2010 - 01:01pm PT
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"Let's say you have a dream. What could the characters in your dream say you are doing? How would they go about proving that you exist? You can't be seen because you are the source of everything seen, you encompass and create all."
If existence is just a dream and we are the product of that dream then how can we possibly be said to have free will? Our production would be from the subconscious of the dreamer, our actions a function of the dreamers will.
The belief that corporeal matter is just a dream ignores the ineluctable modality of the senses and therefore makes little "sense."
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 11, 2010 - 01:02pm PT
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After two millennia of looking for evidence that a god, any god, has had a direct effect on the material world and finding none, one can surely say it is an unusual problem. Can we think of any other area where we have made so little progress in 2000 years?
Perhaps there's more progress than you think. Science has come to the point where it recognizes everything as different vibrations of the same energy. That's not very far from reaching God, we've come a long way.
The "new age" movement, which embraces the truth found in all religions and paths and embraces experience, and escrews strict dogma, might be seen as progress for those not invested in a traditional faith.
and mankind as a whole is renouncing slavery and the concept of war to gain territory and embracing women's rights
We're not all the way there but these are the good old days.
More people are having experiences of God than had them in biblical days. It's just that they got the press in the bible and now you either don't read or don't believe about modern day experiences. Read "autobiography of a yogi" and you'll see every miracle from the Bible in modern times
Peace
Karl
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jan 11, 2010 - 01:47pm PT
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Yeah but, "now that the living out number the dead" there's more going on in a lot of fields. Karl, do you think the percent has increased over 'biblical times'? I don't know, frankly.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jan 11, 2010 - 02:00pm PT
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Nice post, John.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 11, 2010 - 02:06pm PT
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"Science has come to the point where it recognizes everything as different vibrations of the same energy. That's not very far from reaching God, we've come a long way."
Karl, I am not clear on your meaning. For 100 years we have had good models saying mass and energy are interrelated, that our measurements of space are affected by the presence of matter, and more recently we are getting data suggesting an entirely different form of both matter and energy that seem not to interact as they do on earth. At least at present your assertion "same energy" is at odds with the data. I think the term "god", while consisting of but three letters( in English) is a highly disputed term at the center of endless debate. Until people can agree on the meaning of this bit of language I think your statement above can not be the basis of informed discussion. I would that it could.
Last week I talked briefly with a little two year old and her mother from next door. Isla McLarty is one of those pieces of data convincing one, no matter how much ill there is in the world, that there is also good. Anyway I put my hand way over my head as I explained that before all that long she would, indeed, be this tall. Her eyes widened and I could hear dozens of new neuronal connections snapping into place. I have not the slightest doubt that were quantum mechanics to be taught to two year olds, at least up through perturbation theory, many technical questions would no longer need debating. Coins always have two sides. If the golden rule instead of the power of god were to be taught to the very young I think we, without exception, would be extremely pleased with the result.
Until such happens we have to be very careful to understand the meaning of the words we use.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 11, 2010 - 02:10pm PT
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We really have no idea how mystical experience differs between ancient times and today. The average person didn't post up on their blogs back then...Still, since there is plenty of it today, and much more that people don't talk about (as evidenced in my Ju Ju thread) the notion that "miracles" and "revelations" were biblical era events is false.
Paul writes
If existence is just a dream and we are the product of that dream then how can we possibly be said to have free will? Our production would be from the subconscious of the dreamer, our actions a function of the dreamers will.
Our ideas of what "free will" is or not are limited by our material dimensions of time, space and the parameters of thinking and the mind. It might well be true that we don't have free will like we think we do. Even the Christians, who champion this "free will" idea the most, have prophets called events far into the future. How can that happen if everybody is making independent decisions all along the way. We "appear" to have free will, maybe that's what counts.
The belief that corporeal matter is just a dream ignores the ineluctable modality of the senses and therefore makes little "sense."
Paul use big words, confuse little Baba brain. Don't be too strict about the dream analogy applying to all the elements of how and why humans dream.
Peace
Karl
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 11, 2010 - 03:17pm PT
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I agree the Christian notion of free will is problematic, but how on earth can there be such a thing as karma without it. If all karma is a function of the dreamer then what is the purpose/point of the dreamed?
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MH2
climber
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Jan 12, 2010 - 04:15am PT
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Hurrah for the return of jstan.
I don't feel that I have anything to prove or disprove about most of the subject of this thread, but I do feel that I've learned a thing or two and it has given me an idea for a story, for later.
Without trying to define god or the word god, it is sometimes believed that there is a god-like entity that listens to and answers people's prayers. It is that proposal for which the evidence is so underwhelming, despite occasional perceived successes.
If there is that other type of god, a Creator God, I see no reason to attempt an understanding of Its Purpose or Method other than by study of the natural and physical world. With the admission that my brain is probably up to only a tiny fractional understanding of anything, even the bedrock of mathematics.
And always with the thought in mind that when people talk about reality as though it were a concrete thing you could bang your skull off of, that that reality includes the ongoing mental activity of around 6 billion humans and an unknown number of animal thought processes which are even less obvious to us.
Princeton joked that John von Neumann was a demi-god who had studied humans well enough to imitate them. He had abilities that astonished, even in a setting that included Einstein and Godel. Maybe we can consider him as a step in the god-like direction.
"Von Neumann's work was influential in subsequent 'philosophical' interpretations of the [quantum]theory. As Von Neumann saw it, a physical observation involved an observer, a measuring instrument, and that which is being observed. Von Neumann asserted that the distinction between the observer and the measuring instrument is arbitrary."
He spent much of the last years of his life considering how a mind might be embodied in a computer.
quotation from
Prisoner's Dilemma
William Poundstone
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 12, 2010 - 07:01am PT
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Paul writes
I agree the Christian notion of free will is problematic, but how on earth can there be such a thing as karma without it. If all karma is a function of the dreamer then what is the purpose/point of the dreamed?
Maybe Karma is just another law that reflects conservation of energy on another level, like the laws of Thermodynamics and Energy. Some people would philosophize that the dreamer explores himself by projecting into the dream.
But more likely, the rhyme and reason of it are not translatable to terms that we can grasp within the limitations of our conditioning and the environment we live in. Try an explain to the fish why humans invest in the stock market.
Peace
Karl
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 12, 2010 - 08:42am PT
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God is not locked into time and space like we are, we can't relate to Him, we can't understand forever-but through history a little. Jesus, said if you have seen me you have seen the Father, also Jesus was a man like us, yet without sin because God can't sin, no one ever was like Him, yet everything was made through Him! Mind blowing!
God wants a relationship with us, not as a unwilling Owner/slave, Master/servant, General/ privet! But He is our God we willingly submit, for He is trustworthy, as a Loving father/son, and with the Church like a Husband and a bride(of Christ), married, both wanting each other out of love!
Malachi 1:6, “A son honors his father, and a servant his master. If then I am a father, where is my honor? And if I am a master, where is my fear? says the Lord of hosts to you, O priests, who despise my name.
Exodus 21:6, But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever.
A General, you would follow anywhere!
John 3:35, The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.
Revelation 21:9, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.2) By John MacArthur
http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
Proverbs 12:28, In the path of righteousness is life,
and in its pathway there is no death.
Psalms 12:6, The words of the Lord are pure words,
like silver refined in a furnace on the ground,
purified seven times.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jan 12, 2010 - 09:01am PT
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Karma is one of those ideas that sounds appealing and yet there is almost certainly nothing to it.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 12, 2010 - 11:56am PT
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"considering how a mind might be embodied in a computer."
MH2:
Thanks. Pleasant to be back talking about ideas.
It occurs to me Google's search methodology actually begins to employ some of the self assembly and reinforcement through use upon which the brain's adaptive capability is based. When a million people query on some topic Google's S/W moves the responses to those queries to the top of the stack presented as a result of our query. Very much like the brain's ability to strengthen frequently fired synapses.
But there is an even more interesting thing about this.
An individual termite in a termite colony goes about its business following chemical trails. When the termite mound is attacked by ants the chemical trails also incorporate pheromones indicating the agitated states of prior users of that trail. The trails act as communication link tieing together the colony as it attempts to respond to a threat. When we make a query to Google we get back a response ordered according to the interests expressed by other members of our own colony.
Here at ST, we are also doing something not so very different from this.
I think 200 years from now, if we are still here, we will understand just how big a role the internet has played.
This seems very closely related to the story line you describe.
As an aside, we have had many discussions here about "consciousness" with me bitterly complaining the whole way about our failure even to define the concept. All the while we have been using ST and the internet to strengthen quite another consciousness. The understanding by individuals of the interests and emotional states of a large number of peers.
Colony consciousness, if you will.
Indeed it is meet to discuss this on this thread because in a real sense what christ was trying to do was to create just such a colony consciousness. To strengthen the bonds between individuals across a whole population. It really is a shame that this message has been irretrievably corrupted by 100 generations of people using it to serve their self interest.
The time has come to stop going down into the ossuary, to get our great grandfather's bones so that we might play with them, over and over.
We need to hold the golden rule close, follow it, and start over again. The golden rule, after all, is what christ probably followed as a boy.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 12, 2010 - 07:50pm PT
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But even the golden rule can turn into a moral dilemma, if truly applied universally. If everyone follows it, then everyone is constantly doing favors for everyone else, as in the so-called "Abilene Paradox":
On a hot afternoon visiting in Coleman, Texas, the family is comfortably playing dominoes on a porch, until the father-in-law suggests that they take a trip to Abilene [53 miles north] for dinner. The wife says, "Sounds like a great idea." The husband, despite having reservations because the drive is long and hot, thinks that his preferences must be out-of-step with the group and says, "Sounds good to me. I just hope your mother wants to go." The mother-in-law then says, "Of course I want to go. I haven't been to Abilene in a long time."
The drive is hot, dusty, and long. When they arrive at the cafeteria, the food is as bad as the drive. They arrive back home four hours later, exhausted.
One of them dishonestly says, "It was a great trip, wasn't it?" The mother-in-law says that, actually, she would rather have stayed home, but went along since the other three were so enthusiastic. The husband says, "I wasn't delighted to be doing what we were doing. I only went to satisfy the rest of you." The wife says, "I just went along to keep you happy. I would have had to be crazy to want to go out in the heat like that." The father-in-law then says that he only suggested it because he thought the others might be bored.
The group sits back, perplexed that they together decided to take a trip which none of them wanted. They each would have preferred to sit comfortably, but did not admit to it when they still had time to enjoy the afternoon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene_paradox
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 12, 2010 - 08:08pm PT
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What must be true is that the golden rule is found in the heart of man; it abides there naturally as the product of an ancient social need.
It is that social need that produces "divine revelation." God is an invention predicated on the social requirements of a very complex being. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was a product of human creative thought. The perfection of god is a testimony to the remarkable genius of the mind of man and not the other way around. The idea of god indicates the great and unlimited potential we as human beings might achieve.
I have to agree that the great problem with this thread is its lack of specific definitions.Also there needs to be a distinction between the notion of a present deity, active in the lives of humanity, and a final term or force indifferent and unknowing.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 12, 2010 - 11:18pm PT
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Dr. F.-
If the average human being had no concept of a God they would go on living their lives at the level of animals, wasting their big brains and wondering why their lives were so meaningless. They would compensate if they were males by gratuitous violence and if females by making themselves attractive to the most violent males for protection, getting beaten up and raped a few times along the way. Everyone would take a lot of drugs to get through the day.
Their desire for something greater than themselves would be projected onto other human beings who would then gain political power at the expense of everyone, but if they were good looking, successful, and owned a lot of material goods, they would be excused anyway.The average human without God to inspire them and an ideal to strive to be the best possible human, trusting that there is some justice somewhere in this universe, ends up worshipping other human beings, ranging from steroid pumped athletes to mindless movie stars to dictators. Such a person would behave in other words, pretty much like the average secular bozo today.
While the educated elite of modern societies can construct a middle class existence without God or meaning other than just surviving 80 years on a planet in the middle of nowhere, avoiding of course past mistakes with secular experimentation like Nazism, Fascism, and Communism, and only taking some drugs but not too many, constructing their meaning around their careers and professional advancement, at least until they reach retirement age, the average Joe Schmoe can't do that, let alone the 70% of the people on this planet who live in Third World conditions.
And of course, there's always the possibility that there might be something else.........
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 12, 2010 - 11:23pm PT
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Meanwhile we are being told by one of the educated elite on this forum that he lost his faith in karma because of George Bush? Seems to me to just illustrate the idea that once you give up on imagining the best there could be, you sink to the level of the lowest common denominator.
And clearly you don't understand karma if you think that it operates only during one's present lifetime. Karma is the law of cause and effect. It operates whether you believe in it or not, and with or without a belief in God.
Blame the ignorant voters for George Bush, not God or karma, though the karmic results of his presidency will be felt for several generations for sure.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 13, 2010 - 12:10am PT
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Dr. F:
Why did we invent gods? The question has to have had eons of thought applied by truly excellent minds. Personally, I don’t know.
Whether correct or not let me posit that somehow we are genetically (xxxxxxx designedxxxxxx) evolved to expect that rationality guides events. Just a flaw in the way our brains evolved. When we see rationality not providing this guidance to events we look for an escape. An unknowable plan formed by a god? A couple of examples of irrationality.
The Civil War
Southern slave owners owned several billions of dollars of property they were not willing to lose. And they did not know how they were to continue dominating the economy and maintain their status in the absence of cheap labor. They felt threatened. A false issue, states rights, was ginned up and it was used to cause anger among the general populace sufficient to support a state of war, any thoughtful analyst could have told them was hopeless. The general populace was willing to go out and die for no benefit to themselves. When the war was over the slave owners merely created the Jim Crow economy that still gave them the cheap labor for 100 years. It was even cheaper in that they did not have to invest capital to buy the slaves. They were simply there as a self renewing resource. It turns out there was never any need for the war at all as far as the slave owners were concerned.
The Iraq War
An important portion of the US position in the world over the last 100 years issued from our access to cheap oil. The oil companies know better than anyone their present sources are nearing depletion. The oil companies went to Dick Cheney and said america as we know it needs for US oil companies to control oil and to be able to make outsized profit from its exploitation. Ergo, we need Iraq’s oil. Anyone could have told Cheney you can’t profitably pump oil in a countryside beset by guerrilla activity. Without a peacetime draft Cheney, who is no dummy, had to know going in was pointless. But we went. Would you believe Mobil Exxon just signed a 50 billion dollar contract to develop Iraqi oil? Mobil got the oil anyway. There really was no reason I can see for the war. At the worst they might have had to buy Saddam off for a hundred billion. Involve the CIA and they could even have got the taxpayers to front the 100 billion.
I have not heard it but I am sure there are at least a few out there who believe the Iraq War was god’s will. Remarkably few actually, so perhaps we might be encouraged.
To a degree I think our problem is that our genectic evolution has not kept pace with our social evolution. When facing a grizzly bear we use anger to overcome our desire to live. There’s no other way one can tackle a 600 pound bear with only a pen knife. You can see it all around us. If you can get people angry you then own them. They are yours to do with as you please.
The correction? Never get angry. Why would you hand control of yourself over to someone with whom you are in serious disagreement? I mean……I mean………. Holy shyte!
We can’t wait for evolution. That’s clear. If we ascribe so much importance to rationality, we have to assume there is rationality out there. So let’s go back to the basics, the golden rule, and apply it with judgment. Judgment gets us past cintune’s Abilene Paradox, I would hope. There was good thought during the Aramaic period. Let’s pick the best and start over. Christ thought some of that thought was good.
Are we really that ready to say Christ was a dufus?
Life is like a rock climb. You hitch up your socks
and try.
Very nice Paul.
Edit:
When I refer to the Golden Rule i am referring to the antecedent of the rule stated in modern times. Hillel's statement is in the negative.
One does NOT do those things one would NOT choose to have others do to you.
Give me a minute And I will go pull up the correct text.
Interestingly, wikipedia refers to statements that date from 2000 years before christ, during Egypt's Middle Kingdom:
---
Ancient Egypt
An early example of the Golden Rule that reflects the Ancient Egyptian concept of Maat appears in the story of The Eloquent Peasant which is dated to the Middle Kingdom (c. 2040 - 1650 BCE): "Now this is the command: Do to the doer to cause that he do".[5] An example from a Late Period (c. 1080 - 332 BCE) papyrus: "That which you hate to be done to you, do not do to another".[6] It also appears in the Book of the Dead (1580-1350 BCE): "He sought for others the good he desired for himself. Let him pass."[citation needed]
ex Wikipedia
---------
Hillel lived at christ's time and perhaps might have been an elder influence upon him.
The Golden Rule in its various forms evolved during the times humans were ceasing to be simple hunter gatherers.
More advanced societies were forming and this guidance for conducting those societies was apparently seen as the key very early on.
Our egos are far too large, our memories far too short.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 13, 2010 - 12:17am PT
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With all its pathetic faults, humanity does aspire to the best it can be in spite of the obstacles presented by the necessity of survival. The invention of god, like the development of the wheel, stands as a great human achievement.
A greater achievement will be humanity's separation from that invention, when we as human beings are finally able to stand alone in the unthinkable space of our existence and declare the greatness of our potential and make that potential a practical fact.
It is unfortunate, difficult and uncomfortable but "god" stands in the way of humanity's potential, its greatest triumph.
All religion describes nature and existence as cursed or sorrowful, man as fallible and sinful.
All religion places the blame for evil on the acts of man.
How incredibly strange and hard to believe!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 13, 2010 - 12:39am PT
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There are so many things that stand in the way of human advancement right now, ideas of God hardly seem the problem. Human overpopulation and ecological destruction for example, would seem to be much more of a threat.
As for all religions seeing life as suffering and humans as evil, that's a western idea. Hinduism, Buddism, Confucianism, and Taoism all see humans as basically good and when they do evil, it is out of ignorance rather than sin.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 13, 2010 - 01:03am PT
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Meanwhile, after pondering jstan's idea that humans are somehow genetically programmed to believe in cause and effect, my immediate reaction was to say no. What is rational about society in Nepal after all? Then after more thought I had to laugh and admit he's right. Here are some examples.
Every person from a modern society who goes to Nepal is horrified at the lack of sanitation and the terrible health problems that ensue. Those of us who have worked in foreign aid there have many times despaired at how the Nepalese can spin elaborate cause and effect conspiracies theories about political events, but can not seem to get the connection between germs and illness. The mountain gods are angry,we're being attacked by a ghost, we started our trip on the wrong day of the week - that's why we have a stomach ache after all. It has nothing to do with sanitation.
I began to understand a bit of the problem the day I overheard my cook telling a Nepali visitor. "Hindus can't eat beef, Muslims can't eat pork, and Christians can only drink boiled water". Then when we all had amoebas again, I hired a boy to do nothing but haul and boil water and spy on the cook. I offered a month's bonus if he could catch the cook using unboiled water which finally he did. The cook protested loudly. "You told me to boil the water, you told me to boil the tea, you told me to boil the milk. You never told me to boil the water that I put in the powdered milk that I put in the tea".
Assuring him and others numerous times that there was invisible bad stuff in the water that instruments in my country could see, that I personally had seen, I got back the reply that "In our country we have shamans who can see the invisible spirits that cause illness. We don't have your instruments, but we have our shamans, so we believe spirits are the problem".
The Sherpas of course always operate at a higher level. "Of course they told me, if you go to the toilet near the water, the serpent spirits who live there (naga) get angry and make people sick, so we don't make dirty near the water".
"Excellent said I, good enough".
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 13, 2010 - 01:21am PT
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The Buddha said, "All life is sorrowful." His gift is the ability to escape birth into this world!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 13, 2010 - 02:00am PT
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Buddha's real gift was to show the way out of suffering while in this very life and body.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 13, 2010 - 03:44am PT
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Gobee states:
God is not locked into time and space like we are
But can He affect our time and space?
Do you think He can change anything in this time and space?
If He can, is He restricted to changing the present, or possibly the future, or can He also change the past?
A Native American yesterday on the radio said that "the white man" sees time as a river down which he travels, as the landscape, the world, moves past. But in the Blackfoot culture, which I think he was talking about, it is believed that a person can walk up and down alongside the river and visit the past or the future.
This caused Thomas Acquinas a bit of trouble because he also claimed that God was not a prisoner of time, but that although God could affect the present or the future, He could not change the past. Why an all-powerful Being Who stands outside of time would be able to change the future but not the past was unclear.
A favorite example of wishful thinking is Spider Robinson's Lifehouse, in which Google really does take off and join us all into a collective consciousness powerful enough and compassionate enough to go back into the past and collect the minds of people as they die so that they don't miss out on the future.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 13, 2010 - 08:36am PT
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Why did we invent gods?
Psalm 100:3 Know that the Lord, he is God! It is he who made us, and we are his; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.
If there is no God, than everything is our fault or natures!
If there is, God calls it sin!
God through Jesus, forgives us of are sins, when we ask Him!
As a rule a man's a fool,
when it's hot he wants it cool,
when it's cool he wants it hot,
always wanting what is not!
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.2) By John MacArthur
http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
Psalms 13:5-6, But I have trusted in your steadfast love;
my heart shall rejoice in your salvation.
I will sing to the Lord,
because he has dealt bountifully with me.
Proverbs 13:14, The teaching of the wise is a fountain of life,
that one may turn away from the snares of death.
Gainer Maynard?
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jan 13, 2010 - 09:01am PT
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Jan wrote. If the average human being had no concept of a God they would go on living their lives at the level of animals, wasting their big brains and wondering why their lives were so meaningless. They would compensate if they were males by gratuitous violence and if females by making themselves attractive to the most violent males for protection, getting beaten up and raped a few times along the way. Everyone would take a lot of drugs to get through the day.
Their desire for something greater than themselves would be projected onto other human beings who would then gain political power at the expense of everyone, but if they were good looking, successful, and owned a lot of material goods, they would be excused anyway.The average human without God to inspire them and an ideal to strive to be the best possible human, trusting that there is some justice somewhere in this universe, ends up worshipping other human beings, ranging from steroid pumped athletes to mindless movie stars to dictators. Such a person would behave in other words, pretty much like the average secular bozo today.
While the educated elite of modern societies can construct a middle class existence without God or meaning other than just surviving 80 years on a planet in the middle of nowhere, avoiding of course past mistakes with secular experimentation like Nazism, Fascism, and Communism, and only taking some drugs but not too many, constructing their meaning around their careers and professional advancement, at least until they reach retirement age, the average Joe Schmoe can't do that, let alone the 70% of the people on this planet who live in Third World conditions.
Jan, there are so many revealing things in this post about how you feel about the non-religious, one has to wonder, why all the hate?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 13, 2010 - 09:12am PT
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bc-
I think you mistake satire and irony for hatred???
I don't hate anyone and I certainly don't base my opinion of someone on whether they are religious or not.
However, it seems to me by your reply, that in fact the religionists have succeeded in making literalists out of everyone, even those who are not religious?!
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jan 13, 2010 - 09:28am PT
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Exactly how is that supposed to read as satire? It flows pretty much like your other "serious" posts and it leads into your next post about G. Bush and karma. And now you're using your reply to me to make another jab that we're all literalists. More satire?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 13, 2010 - 09:40am PT
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I suppose if you continue on and read my post about cause and effect in Nepal you will then conclude that I "hate" Nepalese?
You know hate is a pretty strong word. I equate it with things like riots and murder and wars.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jan 13, 2010 - 09:54am PT
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No, you said nothing disparaging about the Nepalese. Was that supposed to be satire? I thought it was a story illustrating the Nepalese way of thinking regarding cause and effect. You reserved violent drugged out rapist bozos devoid of meaning for us. Ok, how about "distain" or "animosity" then. Whatever Jan, if you say it was satire, I'll believe you.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 13, 2010 - 10:01am PT
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I would have thought you would identify rather with the educated elite of modern societies who construct a middle class existence without God?
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jan 13, 2010 - 10:10am PT
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Where I align myself is not the issue. Not sure what you're getting at here. More distain?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 13, 2010 - 10:30am PT
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 13, 2010 - 10:38am PT
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Thanks Cintune!
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 13, 2010 - 11:49am PT
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"The Buddha said, "All life is sorrowful." His gift is the ability to escape birth into this world!"
or
"Buddha's real gift was to show the way out of suffering while in this very life and body."
Either way he saw the world as flawed, a place of suffering in much the same way that Christians, Muslims and Jews see it. The revelation of nearly all theologies is that existence is flawed and through right practice there is escape.
My point is that it's time for humanity to abandon these primitive theologies for the reality that life is what it is and we should grab hold of it celebrate it in all its awfulness and create a world that realizes the great potential within.
With all its pathetic faults, humanity does aspire to the best it can be in spite of the obstacles presented by the necessity of survival. The invention of god, like the development of the wheel, stands as a great human achievement.
A greater achievement will be humanity's separation from that invention, when we as human beings are finally able to stand alone in the unthinkable space of our existence and declare the greatness of our potential and make that potential a practical fact.
It is unfortunate, difficult and uncomfortable but "god" stands in the way of humanity's potential, its greatest triumph.
All religion describes nature and existence as cursed or sorrowful, man as fallible and sinful.
All religion places the blame for evil on the acts of man.
How incredibly strange and hard to believe!
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Jan 13, 2010 - 01:21pm PT
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Whether correct or not let me posit that somehow we are genetically designed to expect that rationality guides events.
What do you call the designer? Seems like that's a big part of our belief in god.
I think that most of what we call irrationality is really misunderstanding (based on insufficient information), which I guess is evidence to support your point above.
I think that what's in our genes is affected by what's in the environment. We can accomplish more together than separately - it's advantageous to be good. Our belief in rationality is also maybe a reflection of reality's rationality.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 13, 2010 - 01:27pm PT
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OK. I see yet another English word has been drawn underneath the christian cape, and can no longer be used. The brain evolved.......
Would be good if christian capes were made out of clear plastic so we could see what is actually going on under there.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 13, 2010 - 04:44pm PT
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From the abstract of the first citation:
"conservative religious ideology apparently
contributes to societal dysfunction, and religious prosociality and charity are less effective at
improving societal conditions than are secular government programs."
Previously I have remarked that the new field of evolutionary psychology, this citation coming from a journal of that name, may prove to be the most exciting new field in recent history.
I have also asked the question why it is that our societies have not progressed as one would have expected subsequent to the great flowering during the classic Greek era.
I put these together with the severe dysfunction that has become so apparent in the US in just the last fifteen years and I have to ask.
Does the reduced rate of progress in human societies since say 200BC correlate in any way with the rise of the several theologies during later periods.
We do know the renaissance following the black deaths of the 1500's featured both a flowering of the arts and sciences and reduced power of the church. Much of our present civilization arose during that period.
Nothing is this simple in the real world.
But it seems we need to begin asking new questions.
And very seriously so.
A lot of reading here bc. We are in your debt.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 13, 2010 - 05:05pm PT
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John, I would have to suggest at this point that Nietzsche was way ahead of the curve on this. Poor guy gets such a bad rep for reasons utterly beyond his control, but he clearly forsaw the accelerated decline of western culture as a result of the decadence and resentement that arose out of the exaggerated priestly Christian piety he called "slave morality." He certainly had a few flaws in his own character and analysis, but in the big picture he was pretty much spot on.
I'd recommend starting with The Genealogy of Morals and then working into Beyond Good and Evil and (horrors!) The Anti-Christ. There's a lot in there that can be applied to the social dilemmas you've spelled out here.
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apogee
climber
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Jan 13, 2010 - 06:10pm PT
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NEW YORK (CBS) Pat Robertson, the American Christian televangelist and host of "The 700 Club," said that Haitians need to have a "great turning to god" while he was reporting on the devastating 7.0 earthquake that shook the island nation — the most powerful to hit the country in a century.
As Haitian Prime Minister Jean-Max Bellerive said "well over" 100,000 people may have died in the natural disaster, Robertson took to the airwaves Wednesday on his show and said that the country has been "cursed by one thing after another" since they "swore a pact to the devil."
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2010/01/13/crimesider/entry6092717.shtml
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 13, 2010 - 06:19pm PT
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What a sad old man.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 13, 2010 - 10:41pm PT
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Paul-
I'm still pondering your statement that:
A greater achievement will be humanities separation from that invention.When we as human beings are finally able to stand alone in the unthinkable space of our existence and declare the greatness of our potential and make that potential a practical fact.
I can appreciate the nobility in that statement and the fact that it may happen at some distant point in time if we don't extinct our species first.
I put it in the same category as Ed's insistence that every spiritual experience is merely a by product of an evolved animal brain.
It may be true, but it has not been proved and won't be one way or the other, for a very long period of time.
Dr. F.-
I have no doubt that the small percentage of our population who are atheists behave better than average. To be an atheist is to stand up to the norm, think your positions through, and be aware that you are a role model for a very small minority. The fact that atheists as a group are able to think all these issues through indicates that they are more affluent and literate than average. Likewise the participation on this thread on a website.
The handful of atheists in America or the world for that matter are not the people I have been commenting on when I say that humanity at large is not ready to function without religion. I am not directing my comments at individuals, but rather societal and evolutionary trends.
As for whether Buddha was enlightened, the answer is yes and many others of many different religions as well. There are very specific stages that one goes through to reach the mental state known as enlightenment. Until recently, the West has lacked any clear description of the complete path. However, a recent book by Jim Marion, Putting on the Mind of Christ: the Inner Work of Christian Spirituality, draws the major Christian works on the topic into one consistent framework with enough references to eastern religions that anyone familiar with them can see the direct correspondence. A lot of what he writes however, is in direct contradiction to the traditional interpretations of the same scripture that he quotes, so I doubt that mainstream Christians will be following his path any time soon.
jstan-
Marion would be the first to agree with you that Christians should wear transparent capes. He has written another great book called Death of the Mythic God: theRise of Evolutionary Spirituality which skewers modern day Christianity, Catholicism in particular.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 13, 2010 - 10:49pm PT
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weschrist- "I sure do hate those Christians."
Paradoxical/ironic isn't it? That Christian's are instructed to love you, and Christ died for you! And that you choose to hate Him is prophetic!!
"and you will be hated by all because of My name." 21:17
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jstan
climber
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Jan 13, 2010 - 11:36pm PT
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"And that you choose to hate Him is prophetic!"
Sounds very prophetic, but consider a prophesy I will here make.
Tomorrow will be a THURSDAY.
A prophesy is remarkable only when the chance of guessing it is low.
People are hated by name and in christ's line of work at that time this prophesy was no prophesy at all.
Every year or so the end times have been prophesied. That prophesy has a special twist in that it can never be shown correct on earth. No one will be left to celebrate its accuracy.
That one is an apriori loser, and proves to be so all the time.
You don't even have to invoke statistical analysis.
On Intelligence:
As a quantifiable parameter intelligence has a dynamic range that extends over one hundred orders of magnitude. And it exists in a space with a million-fold dimensionality. I am very nervous about arguments based upon gauging intelligence. Jan's argument that aetheists tend to think things through and tend to take responsibility for their decisions I think has support and indeed I myself have made the responsibility argument.
I don't think we should blame invisible rabbits for our bad decisions.
Indeed, I have not been able to find a rabbit that would take that job. You get no appreciation in that line of work.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 14, 2010 - 12:08am PT
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As a quantifiable parameter intelligence has a dynamic range that extends over one hundred orders of magnitude. And it exists in a space with a million-fold dimensionality.
At least.
The Policeman's Beard is Half Constructed
prose and poetry by Racter
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 14, 2010 - 12:29am PT
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jstan- "...in that it can never be shown to be correct on earth. No one will be left to celebrate it's accuracy."
False!
Many will be left.
That is the reason Christ returns, to intervene in a world about to wipe out the human race(and all the critters)with a nuclear war.
There will be many left, at least a billion people alive! At least 1/3 of the current population of the world.
And all of the Jewish Nation of Israel will have long since(half way threw the Tribulation)fled Jerusalem for the hills of Petra.
And how about the Miracle that is Israel??
A handful of people being spread throughout the world(as prophesied). Only to return after 1900 + years(as prophesied)!!
To be never driven from their homeland again.
And how about the miracle that was the Seven Day War?
"For whom shall bless Israel, shall be blessed, and for whom shall curse Israel, shall be cursed."(my paraphrase).
Better take heed Iran!!!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 14, 2010 - 12:57am PT
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"What if:: The humans didn't discover God yet, no one thought there was a God, it wasn't even discussed."
Now who's playing a top down god, changing the past? Horse pucky, you can't take God out, He has always been, you can say you don't want to believe in Him, that He is not, but good luck with that, you can deny all you want, that's your choice!
Proverbs 14:9, Fools mock at the guilt offering,
but the upright enjoy acceptance.
Proverbs 14:12, There is a way that seems right to a man,
but its end is the way to death.
Proverbs 14:14 The backslider in heart will be filled with the fruit of his ways,
and a good man will be filled with the fruit of his ways
The Fool Says, There Is No God
To the choirmaster. Of David.
Psalms 14, The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds,
there is none who does good.
The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man,
to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.
They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good, not even one.
Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers
who eat up my people as they eat bread
and do not call upon the Lord?
There they are in great terror,
for God is with the generation of the righteous.
You would shame the plans of the poor,
but the Lord is his refuge.
Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion!
When the Lord restores the fortunes of his people,
let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad.
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.2) By John MacArthur http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jan 14, 2010 - 01:01am PT
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777, it's amusing you consider hatred for Pat Robertson to be fulfilling prophecy.
Do you really think he is a Christian?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 14, 2010 - 01:11am PT
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monolith!
My post was in reply to weschrist post that read in its entirety... "I sure do hate those Christians."
Has nothing to do with Pat R....other than he claims to be a Christian.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jan 14, 2010 - 09:33am PT
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The handful of atheists in America? Jan, you have got to be kidding.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 14, 2010 - 10:46am PT
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eeyonkee-
I decided to check on numbers of atheists in America and was quite surprised at what I found.
About.com says that 12% of Americans are atheists.
http://atheism.about.com/b/2004/12/02/how-many-atheists-in-america.htm
This surprised me as I work in academia where the percentage, especially if we add in agnostics, is much higher, usually the majority, but I would have guessed 5% or less for the country as a whole.
I was also startled to learn of the prejudice against atheists which I assumed to exist only among religious fundamentalists. Unfortunately that is not the case, which also helps explain the vehemence of some of the opinions expressed around here.
http://atheism.about.com/od/atheistbigotryprejudice/a/AtheitsHated.htm
A lot to think about.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jan 14, 2010 - 11:38am PT
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judging christians or christianity by pat robertson's example is like judging austrians by hitler's example:
Pat Robertson’s Offense [Peter Wehner]
Sometimes in the midst of a tragedy like the one we have witnessed in Haiti we see acts of enormous compassion and sacrifice. Other times we hear words that are wholly inappropriate and offensive, not to mention just plain wacky. Such is the case (yet again) with the Reverend Pat Robertson. Yesterday, on The 700 Club, Robertson said this:
Something happened a long time ago in Haiti, and people might not want to talk about it. They were under the heel of the French . . . and they got together and swore a pact to the devil. They said, "We will serve you if you'll get us free from the French." True story. And so the devil said, "OK, it's a deal." . . . Ever since, they have been cursed by one thing after another, desperately poor. That island of Hispaniola is one island. It's cut down the middle. On the one side is Haiti; on the other side is the Dominican Republic. Dominican Republic is, is prosperous, healthy, full of resorts, et cetera. Haiti is in desperate poverty. Same island.
In other words, the earthquake is God’s judgment on Haiti for its sinful 18th-century pact with the Devil.
Set aside the fact that this “true story” is based on a legend. Set aside, too, the arbitrary foolishness of Robertson’s statement (why would God lash out at Haiti but not at Saudi Arabia, Iran, North Korea, or secular Europe?). And set aside the hardness of heart that would lead a man, at this moment, to see human misery on such a mass scale and blame an impoverished nation for bringing upon itself the judgment of the Almighty.
There is another important issue involved here, which is a warped and confused theology Robertson has employed before. For example, Robertson agreed with Jerry Falwell that on 9/11 God lifted the “curtain” and allowed the enemies of America to give us “probably what we deserve”; and in 1998 he warned after Orlando city officials voted to fly rainbow flags from city lampposts during an annual Gay Day event at Disney World, “I don’t think I’d be waving those flags in God’s face if I were you. . . . [A] condition like this will bring about the destruction of your nation. It’ll bring about terrorist bombs, it’ll bring earthquakes, tornadoes, and possibly a meteor.”
Pat Robertson’s argument is as neat and clean as a mathematical equation: God grants blessings and curses on nations and people based on their allegiance and obedience to Him. If things are going well, you’re living right; if things are going badly, you’re living wrong. And it is Robertson himself who can divine the hierarchy of sins that most trouble God.
But this view simply does not correspond with any serious understanding of Christianity. After all, the most important symbol in Christianity is the Cross, which represents suffering, agony, and death. When Jesus spoke to Ananias, who was instrumental in the conversion of the Apostle Paul, Ananias was told, “I will show [Paul] how much he must suffer for my name.” Christ Himself warned His disciples that they would suffer for His sake; most of them were martyred for their faith. The Apostle Peter speaks about the suffering that Christians will endure for doing good. And in the book of Romans we read that we are to rejoice in our suffering because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance produces character; and character produces hope. On and on it goes.
Malcolm Muggeridge was once asked what he thought was going on at Calvary. Muggeridge answered this way:
I think that men had to be shown that the way to revelation was through suffering, not, as they may have been inclined to think, that the way was through happiness. A great image revelatory of this was absolutely essential. They had also to be shown that what they must worship is, in earthly terms, defeat, not, as they thought, victory; that they must worship what in earthly terms is weak, not what has hitherto been thought of as strength; that this image of a man dying because of the truth that he embodied, established forever what truth is — something you die for. . . .
All we can say is that [suffering] is part of the experience of living, and, like all other parts, it can shed light or it can shed darkness. Suffering is an essential element in the Christian religion, as it is in life. After all, the Cross itself is the supreme example.
Compare these wise and penetrating words with Robertson’s offensive and ignorant ones.
I fully realize that Robertson long ago ceased being a serious figure in the eyes of many people. Still, he remains a person of some influence, an individual who ran for president, whose words still garner attention, and whose views reflect a strand of thought within Christendom. So when he speaks out like he did yesterday, his words and theology need to be challenged.
Unlike Pat Robertson, I don’t pretend to understand how and why God acts in this world. Christians must reconcile their belief in the incarnation and their conviction that Jesus cares deeply for us and is involved in the affairs of man with suffering and tragedy writ small and writ large. It isn’t an easy thing to come to grips with; sloganeering and nice, tidy explanations melt when confronted with the pain of life. Even C. S. Lewis, a monumental figure in 20th-century Christianity, saw his faith buckle for a time after the death of his wife Joy (Lewis eventually recovered his faith, though he was clearly a different man).
What the Christian faith teaches us is that even in suffering there can be redemption; that this world, for all of its joys and sorrows, is not our home; and that at the end of our pilgrimage, beyond the sufferings of this world, there are streams of mercy, never ceasing. This may not be the gospel according to Robertson; it is, though, the story of faith according to Jesus.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 14, 2010 - 01:10pm PT
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Amazing how Pat Robertson is able to stir up a hornet's nest. Once again we have every person having the freedom to decide who is a "real" christian and who isn't. Then blindly ignoring the fact this means the word has no meaning whatsoever.
But, if Jan's data is right, christianity does give people the freedom to hate some other group. Again a group each person is able to define for themselves. Where does this stop? Is christianity just a convenient cover for bigotry? Why do we need a cover for bigotry? If we are ashamed of our bigotry, why are we ashamed? Or is it we just worry that we ourselves will become a target? In some places and some times bigotry covered by devout belief allowed you to stone people to death. So I guess there is something to be "ashamed" about. A lot actually.
Apparently even unto today.
Jan's data also suggests devout belief anticorrelates with education. That I can believe. No, Wrong word. Sorry. That I can UNDERSTAND. (Correlation does not require mutual exclusion so no need for anyone to extrapolate what I have said.)
And we even have a person complaining about something a christian has said and drawing a comparison to Hitler. Very suggestive that such extreme depth had to be plumbed in order to get a comparison. Anything less than Hitler is apparently alright?
I would suggest people in congregations across the country and world need to stand up Sunday to say something is very wrong when those of us who claim to admire a reasoned peacemaker like jesus support ignorance and hatred. None of us are willing to say it is clear we are not following our teacher.
None say we are not following our teacher.
None say we are blasphemers.
Jesus was bloody courageous. Perhaps it is just too hard to actually follow his example.
But we like to pretend.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 14, 2010 - 01:49pm PT
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weschrist!
FWIW, I have stated many times here that I thought it was not wise, and that I was against the Iraq war/invasion from it's conception, as were many Christians including P.R who stated such over and over again on air(700 club) I do concur that it was a dumb thing for Pat R. to exclaim what he did in regards to Haiti...I follow Jesus Christ not some mere man!
wes= "Uh, yea, how's that working out for them?"
The verse in regards to Jeremiah 23:6, is referring to when JC will return and set up His millennial Kingdom. Untel then It will continue to face oppression! Then and only then will they have peace.
Uh, yea, it is working out just as prophesied...you guys realy outta do a little Bible research/study before you start spray-in! Just say-in!!
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jan 14, 2010 - 02:03pm PT
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"And we even have a person complaining about something a christian has said and drawing a comparison to Hitler. Very suggestive that such extreme depth had to be plumbed in order to get a comparison. Anything less than Hitler is apparently alright?"
read carefully...i wasn't comparing robertson to hitler or christians to austrians
i was making a point about prejudice and bigotry...people who decry christianity point to the worst of behavior committed by HUMANS who call themselves christians...following this logic, i could just as reasonably say, "austrians are a bunch of jew hating nazis" or "liberals are a bunch of american military hating, hamas sympathizing, media attention craving code pinkers" or "pga players are a bunch of wife cheating a**holes" or "nba players are a bunch of gun toting idiots"
and "christian" very much has a meaning, which i think is very clear even to a non-christian like me:
"god so LOVED the world that he gave his only begotten son..."
still don't like my comparison? how about a contrast:
whenever somebody calling himself a christian kills an abortion doctor or makes a clearly offensive statement about the suffering of thousands of innocent haitians, you put the fault immediately, precisely, and completely on their proclaimed religion...but when somebody calling himself a muslim and even producing a videotape justifying his actions with the Quran straps a bomb to his chest and walks into an ICE CREAM PARLOR crowded with children and senior citizens or fills a car with explosives and tracks down a GROUP OF GIRLS walking to school or flies a plane full of innocent civilians into buildings filled with innocent civilians, you put the fault on "american imperialism" or "poverty" or "pre-post traumatic stress syndrome"
excusing jihadis' (despite their videotaped admissions) acts of murder is like excusing tiger woods by saying, "it must have just slipped out" or "he was raped" or "he just had too much money"
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 14, 2010 - 02:14pm PT
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wes- "I hate many Christians, especially ones like you."
What do you know of me?? Or what I have accomplished?? Or of the thousands of kids, and homeless and in need that I have reached out to? To feed and cloth and help financially etc., most of whom were abandoned and on the streets/barely surviving! The years since I have turned my life to Christ. I gave everything I had for a period of five years, working with the street kids in Hollywood and LA. At that time 1985-92, there were over 10,000 run-away, abandoned, and abused kids on the streets of LA/Hollywood. Ranging in age from 12-18.
You already accused me falsely of being in favor of an injustice war etc. etc.!
You know little about me. And I could care less!!
EDIT: I would just like to ad that I have no animosity towards you weschrist, or any so called atheist, agnostic, or any other 'religion' etc. I just feel as though that if we are capable of getting along on a wall or in some other environment, we should be able to show each other a modicum of respect here!
Sorry wes...as I look back at what you said about "hating Christians"! I didn't mean to say that you hate Jesus Christ, I was wrong! I am glad that you don't. And I agree, many of us are pathetic hypocrites.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Jan 14, 2010 - 05:49pm PT
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this is what i use to keep out the christians:
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apogee
climber
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Jan 14, 2010 - 09:54pm PT
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Religious Right leader defends Robertson's Haiti comment
By Bob Allen
Thursday, January 14, 2010
VISTA, Calif. (ABP) -- As several religious leaders criticized Pat Robertson's comments blaming Haiti's massive Jan. 12 earthquake on a pact supposedly made by its people with the devil, one came out to defend him.
Gary Cass, chairman and CEO of the Christian Anti-Defamation Commission, issued a statement saying that while Robertson's comments made him an "easy target" for criticism, they are essentially theologically sound.
Cass, who before taking his current job in 2007 worked three years as executive director of the Center for Reclaiming America for Christ, an outreach of the late D. James Kennedy's Coral Ridge Ministries, said the Bible talks of connections between historical realities and spiritual influences when it uses the terms "blessing or cursing."
Gary Cass is president and CEO of the Christian Anti-Defamation Commission.
Cass said the majority of Americans believe in moral causality. Eastern religious call it "karma," while Christians call it "God's providence." In that regard, he said, Robertson's comments were "well within the bounds of historic Christian theology."
http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/4728/53/
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Jan 14, 2010 - 10:22pm PT
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OK. I see yet another English word has been drawn underneath the christian cape, and can no longer be used. The brain evolved.....
Not sure where christian comes from, but I think we all use information to form our beliefs.
Designed, evolved - in response to what? There's a question that we don't have the information to answer, so we form beliefs based on what we have. We're pretty good at telling the difference between a 1 and 2 chance and a 1 and 100 chance, not so good telling the difference between a 1 in billion chance and 1 in 100 billion chance.
Do we believe that reality is rational, or do we define rational based on what reality is? I think it's a stretch to come to the conclusion that reality is irrational - that it's wrong for people to hold irrational beliefs - but that's what we do with our incomplete information.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 14, 2010 - 11:02pm PT
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You're not enlightened. Only a bogus rascal claims he's enlightened.
You're in deep darkness.
Enlightenment is not something cheap ......
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MH2
climber
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Jan 14, 2010 - 11:43pm PT
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Hey! That's a repost! From paganmonkeyboy's thread. That's not enlightened
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MH2
climber
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Jan 14, 2010 - 11:46pm PT
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near enough
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 14, 2010 - 11:49pm PT
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Dr. F-
There are many enlightened people on this planet. However, part of being enlightened is that you don't go around bragging about it. When the Dalai Lama says he is a simple Buddhist monk for example, he's really just being modest since he is the best known example today, of a person who is enlightened. There are over 300 other tulkus in Tibetan culture at the moment who are also at that level, and countless others who live in obscurity in caves and villages across the Himalaya.
In India, no one knows how many there might be, but thousands would be a good guess from the number of renunciants and retreat centers and the amount of time and attention dedicated to the quest. I am sure that Karl would say the guru he studies under is just one of them. Almost any well known guru has achieved that status including Shivananda, Ramana Maharshi, Ramakrishna, and Aurobindo in the past and Guru Mai and Prabhupada currently. Some have visited America such as Vivekenanda, the founder of the Vedanta Society, Prabhupada of Krishna Consciousness, and Paramhansa Yogananda, whom both Karl and I have recommended since he published many books in English including the first yogic explanation of the deeper meanings of Christianity. Yogananda founded Self Realization Fellowship and several of his followers have also founded centers. Chogyam Trungpa in Boulder was one and Tarthang Tulku of Berkeley and Sonoma are others. Many Zen and Taoist masters as well.
The history of Hassidic Judaism has many, as do the Sufis of Islam. In Christianity, there is a whole long list of Christian saints who fit the bill, Mother Theresa being a recent example. Beyond that, there are many holy people in all of these religions who have made it that stage. Jim Marion and Bernadette Roberts are two modern Americans who have written about it.
Meanwhile, I think your doubt maybe comes from not knowing what it actually means. An enlightened person is not necessarily a genius though many are, but generally they are not free of political or scientific errors. Some are recognized for their psychic powers, others do not have them or do not show them.
An enlightened person is one who is free of all ego and self will, a person without karma or sin. They may make mistakes but never from a selfish egoistic motivation. They are all people who have dedicated their life either to understanding God better and passing that along or merely to showing God through their service to their fellow humans. Blame or fame, wealth or poverty is irrelevant to them. They simply serve.What makes them enlightened is that they have passed through a specific set of internal mental experiences and revelations which are well known in mystic circles.
Meanwhile, for a second opinion, consult Karl and Werner.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 15, 2010 - 12:41am PT
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Dr. F-
The Dalai Lama's life is not exactly hidden, nor any of those whose names I mentioned.
To find out what they have to offer however, you have to search them out with an open mind.You have to read what they've written with an open mind, and most difficult of all, you have to examine your own heart and mind with all its pain and all your own reflexive self defensiveness based on that past pain.Once you figure out where it came from, you have to do the hardest thing of all, and that is forgive those who dished it out to you. Then you will see some real changes in your life.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that something(s) very painful occurred in your life to flip you from super religious as you self describe to super anti religious and mad as hell about it. Generally the people closest to us have hurt us the most and that becomes really toxic if the pain was inflicted in the name of religion.
And Rokjox is correct. We are already enlightened, we were created in the image and likeness, but our ignorance, our willful self destructiveness, and the great pain humans inflict on each other have obscured that fact.
When Buddha said he brought an end to suffering or Christ said he came with good news, the message from vastly different perspectives was that you can free yourself from pain with the help of those who have gone before, and once you're no longer suffering you can be of some real use to humanity.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 15, 2010 - 04:00am PT
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"enlightenment" is a tricky subject.
Sort of like "Love"
Somebody gets a boner and calls it Love. Somebody else might see their connection with every person with great compassion and understanding....They might also call it Love. We don't have a device to measure it.
Somebody else gets a flash of insight, and compared to where they were before, they feel, enlightened. Somebody else lets go of their whole idea of themselves but still finds that their Spirit shines on beneath the ideas and blossoms into the manifest center of their Being. That's self-realization, another form of Enlightenment.
Beyond Self-realization is God-Realization, where your Spirit is joined with the Spirit of All. That's the Jesus Christ, Buddha sort of attainment and I suspect those folks come on a mission to serve.
But its folly to try to judge and rationalize things that are well beyond your understanding and say "An Enlightened One would say this or do that." An enlightened one has a different view and an inner vision that directs their actions. They know better than to tell you they are enlightened or to jump through your hoops to prove it. They see that things happen for reasons that sometimes can't be changed and know better than to try to force events into some idealized fairy tale.
The thing that self-realization gives you is not a power to make things different, but to understand who you are and to have a non-rational non-linear download that transmits the perfection and order of every moment and every person. You can point to it but it's ultimately beyond words and concepts, like the highest expression of Love also defies a definition.
Everyone is master of their own path. They will get help when they are truly open to it, and until then, no enlightened anybody will interfere with their sovereignty. Seek and you will find, if you get out of your own way. Seek to deny and you'll get that for sure.
Peace
Karl
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jan 15, 2010 - 07:31am PT
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"Gary Cass, chairman and CEO of the Christian Anti-Defamation Commission, issued a statement saying that while Robertson's comments made him an "easy target" for criticism, they are essentially theologically sound. "
"Cass, who before taking his current job in 2007 worked three years as executive director of the Center for Reclaiming America for Christ, an outreach of the late D. James Kennedy's Coral Ridge Ministries, said the Bible talks of connections between historical realities and spiritual influences when it uses the terms "blessing or cursing."
"Gary Cass is president and CEO of the Christian Anti-Defamation Commission.
Cass said the majority of Americans believe in moral causality. Eastern religious call it "karma," while Christians call it "God's providence." In that regard, he said, Robertson's comments were "well within the bounds of historic Christian theology."
Rev. Robertson's remarks are NOT theologically sound. These individuals need open the Bibles they insist on waving over their heads and read what is written therein.... There is nothing in biblical canon suggesting one can sell their souls to, or pact with Satan. Nothing !
The covenanting with Satan concept was popularized by Faust and embellished into a rude folklore discrete from authentic Christianity.
Apart from Rev Robertson's foolishness telling "devil stories" in the wake of tragedy, it's travesty for these individuals to propose Robertson has entitlement to preside over, pontificate or interpolate these events on behalf of God. And Christians lack entitlement to gloat over the demise of a nation of innocents .....and are specifically directed to show compassion and charity to the downtrodden and afflicted.
Please save the "devil stories" for Halloween, Reverend. Read that Bible you deftly use to trump scientific evidence, common sense and everything else contrary to your agenda. Satan lacks the power to crisp your french fries.......in no way does he have might to deliver the Haitians "from under the heel of the French." That was effected by Black Haitian generals and Black Haitian soldiers.......and yes, with help from the Almighty.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jan 15, 2010 - 09:12am PT
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"When the Dalai Lama says he is a simple Buddhist monk for example"
the dalai lama claims to be the 13th reincarnation of an enlightened soul...not exactly a "simple" or modest claim
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jan 15, 2010 - 09:34am PT
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Rokjox,
Atheists got a lot of preconceptions.
Such as...
(Lots os preconceptions about atheists on this thread.)
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jan 15, 2010 - 10:06am PT
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Just for the record, I'm agnostic on the existence of god, but you claimed "lots" and that this makes it hard for them to be "enlightened". Does one have to think or believe there is a god to be enlightened? Is religion the only path? Why would a god belief or religiosity make it easier? What other atheist preconceptions would make it harder? Just curious since others on this thread have made claims to what atheists are like, but I suspect they really haven't looked into it much.
I would say that it's likely the average atheist/agnostic has less peconceptions than the religious, who are handed a bunch of stuff to believe and follow. We are less likely to be hoodwinked by the religious BS concerning what's out there. Atheists and agnostics come in many varieties, but most have a healthy skepticism about religious claims. However, this does not mean that we are incapable of spiritual living or thought.
Edit: There is nothing you need to do first in order to be enlightened. Thaddeus Golas
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jan 15, 2010 - 10:51am PT
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"What other atheist preconceptions would make it harder?"
being "enlightened" doesn't mean being really smart or wise
"enlightenment" refers to a state of being that transcends the physical world, which, logically, asserts a non-physical existence (i.e. a soul)...atheists do not believe in the soul, ergo, they do not have any need/desire for enlightenment
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jan 15, 2010 - 11:47am PT
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bookworm,
being "enlightened" doesn't mean being really smart or wise
Who made that claim? I would never say that. Atheists and agnostics can be as smart or stupid as anyone else.
"enlightenment" refers to a state of being that transcends the physical world, which, logically, asserts a non-physical existence (i.e. a soul)...atheists do not believe in the soul, ergo, they do not have any need/desire for enlightenment
Really.
Main Entry: en·light·en·ment
Pronunciation: \in-ˈlī-tən-mənt, en-\
Function: noun
Date: 1654
1 : the act or means of enlightening : the state of being enlightened
2 capitalized : a philosophic movement of the 18th century marked by a rejection of traditional social, religious, and political ideas and an emphasis on rationalism —used with the
3 Buddhism : a final blessed state marked by the absence of desire or suffering (emphasis mine)
Main Entry: enlightened
Function: adjective
Date: 1652
1 : freed from ignorance and misinformation
2 : based on full comprehension of the problems involved
I realize these are dictionary references, however, I see no mention of a "non-physical existence" or "soul". I'm sure the idea of a soul figures large in most religious practices that claim to offer enlightenment, however your assumption that it is required is, well, an assumption. You've raised a straw man arguement based on your own narrow definition of what you think enlightenment and a soul is and of what atheists think and then assert what you think atheists "need/desire" (enlightenment denied!)
Atheists by definition do not believe in any god(s). The existence of a human soul or spirit however may be possible, but its existence would not be tied to any gods because they do not exist. Are you certain that "non-physical existence" = "soul"? The existence, definition and use of a "soul" is debatable and varies widely.
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Floyd Hayes
Trad climber
Hidden Valley Lake, CA
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Jan 15, 2010 - 11:55am PT
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Well, after 5,256 messages in this thread, has anybody changed their mind?
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jan 15, 2010 - 11:57am PT
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Yes, but they haven't changed their positions.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 15, 2010 - 11:58am PT
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Amazing Grace
Norwegian says, about this song;
"its better without the crass accusation that we're wretches.
i maintain my wretch status.
so do christians really tell their kids that they are wretches?
i just cant imagine that.
i mean, im kinda ok about perpetuating the st. nick shoved his tail down our stove pipe and at the cookies and all...
but, wretches? thats fuked.
i see my one cent rolling down the coarse pavement unnoticed for my one cent won't even buy the cheapest trick or candy anymore."
Children are innocent until they come of age, but they don't like to share sometimes, and do things that if an adult did them would make you wonder! Our grandson pulls the table cloth off the table all the time with stuff on it and thinks it's funny, we say please don't do that, and so it goes, it's kind of cute but he's a child!
That song is about the love of God, that even though we have done wrong, Jesus gave His life for us and God forgives and loves us because of who He is!
If you know you are a wretch, and God's unmerited love still welcomes you, now that's an amazing... song!
Now that's enlightenment, having your sin's wiped away!
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.2) By John MacArthur http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
Who Shall Dwell on Your Holy Hill?
A Psalm of David.
Psalm 15, O Lord, who shall sojourn in your tent?
Who shall dwell on your holy hill?
2 He who walks blamelessly and does what is right
and speaks truth in his heart;
3 who does not slander with his tongue
and does no evil to his neighbor,
nor takes up a reproach against his friend;
4 in whose eyes a vile person is despised,
but who honors those who fear the Lord;
who swears to his own hurt and does not change;
5 who does not put out his money at interest
and does not take a bribe against the innocent.
He who does these things shall never be moved.
Proverbs 15, A soft answer turns away wrath,
but a harsh word stirs up anger.
2 The tongue of the wise commends knowledge,
but the mouths of fools pour out folly.
3 The eyes of the Lord are in every place,
keeping watch on the evil and the good.
4 A gentle tongue is a tree of life,
but perverseness in it breaks the spirit.
5 A fool despises his father's instruction,
but whoever heeds reproof is prudent.
6 In the house of the righteous there is much treasure,
but trouble befalls the income of the wicked.
7 The lips of the wise spread knowledge;
not so the hearts of fools.
8 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord,
but the prayer of the upright is acceptable to him.
9 The way of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord,
but he loves him who pursues righteousness.
10 There is severe discipline for him who forsakes the way;
whoever hates reproof will die.
11 Sheol and Abaddon lie open before the Lord;
how much more the hearts of the children of man!
12 A scoffer does not like to be reproved;
he will not go to the wise.
13 A glad heart makes a cheerful face,
but by sorrow of heart the spirit is crushed.
14 The heart of him who has understanding seeks knowledge,
but the mouths of fools feed on folly.
15 All the days of the afflicted are evil,
but the cheerful of heart has a continual feast.
16 Better is a little with the fear of the Lord
than great treasure and trouble with it.
17 Better is a dinner of herbs where love is
than a fattened ox and hatred with it.
18 A hot-tempered man stirs up strife,
but he who is slow to anger quiets contention.
19 The way of a sluggard is like a hedge of thorns,
but the path of the upright is a level highway.
20 A wise son makes a glad father,
but a foolish man despises his mother.
21 Folly is a joy to him who lacks sense,
but a man of understanding walks straight ahead.
22 Without counsel plans fail,
but with many advisers they succeed.
23 To make an apt answer is a joy to a man,
and a word in season, how good it is!
24 The path of life leads upward for the prudent,
that he may turn away from Sheol beneath.
25 The Lord tears down the house of the proud
but maintains the widow's boundaries.
26 The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the Lord,
but gracious words are pure.
27 Whoever is greedy for unjust gain troubles his own household,
but he who hates bribes will live.
28 The heart of the righteous ponders how to answer,
but the mouth of the wicked pours out evil things.
29 The Lord is far from the wicked,
but he hears the prayer of the righteous.
30 The light of the eyes rejoices the heart,
and good news refreshes the bones.
31 The ear that listens to life-giving reproof
will dwell among the wise.
32 Whoever ignores instruction despises himself,
but he who listens to reproof gains intelligence.
33 The fear of the Lord is instruction in wisdom,
and humility comes before honor.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jan 15, 2010 - 12:02pm PT
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bookworm wrote,
proof that agw is a religion
No. This is proof of what some washed up actor thinks.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jan 15, 2010 - 12:16pm PT
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i was speaking of 'enlightenment' in the spiritual sense (i.e. like buddha)
and i never claimed atheists can't be smart or wise...i'm a big fan of christopher hitchens
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jstan
climber
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Jan 15, 2010 - 12:27pm PT
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Way to go Jennie!
My props.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 15, 2010 - 12:36pm PT
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Dr. F.-
People who know what they're doing in any field do not feel the need to brag about it. Of course they talk about the various stages and experiences with their advanced followers, and have been known to talk about what enlightenment is like and how they achieved it in their biographies. They don't broadcast it to the world because the world doesn't understand and ridicules what it doesn't understand. As Jesus so colorfully put it, "don't cast your pearls before swine".
Meanwhile, the people around them with any sensitivity, can tell that they're way beyond the average person.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jan 15, 2010 - 12:37pm PT
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bookworm
i was speaking of 'enlightenment' in the spiritual sense (i.e. like buddha)
I got that, however I still believe you are mistaken in your a*#umptions and conclusions.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jan 15, 2010 - 12:52pm PT
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Rokjox, I wouldn't even call that healthy. Acceptance of others beliefs and ideals is likely a (actually) healthy response to those others beliefs
Do not confuse skepticism with being cynical. For my part, I tend to be accepting of what others believe. They can do what they wish. We can debate and get along. I actually get great enjoyment from the companionship and discussions I've had with my religious friends. I trust the feeling if mutual.
You will not manage to be enlightened as long as you are worrying about what somebody else believes.
This is not necessarily a condition of being atheist or agnostic. It is true many atheist do worry about it, especially where religion intersects public policy and international relations, however many do not bother.
I guess I'm bothered with the assumtion that atheists lack or are incapable of having any spiritualness or "deeper" thinking. To many we're just a bunch of science driven soul-less complainers.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jan 15, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
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Rokjox,Here you are quibbling over whether people have "soul" and what it might actually be... Thats baggage.
It's baggage bookworm brought to the terminal. I was trying to point out to him that his arguements may have been specious. I was not giving what I thought it to mean. Far from quibbling, I was trying to present alternative views that may be just as viable as his own.
Would you rather be happy, or "right"?
I'm happy that I've never claimed to be right on anything.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jan 15, 2010 - 01:36pm PT
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Rokjox, oh, and spending time quoting dictionaries and arguing over the definition of "enlightenment" is definitely not enlightened or enlightening. The definition was not necessarily construed as having a purpose in the discussion we are having. And it was not necessarily written by an enlightened lexicographer.
I admitted as much, that it was only a dictionary reference. However I will argue the meaning of enlightenment when the definition bookworm (or anyone) is concocting precludes athiests (and by extension - me) from ever achieving it. And you will note it was directed at bookworm's comments and not anything you have said.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jan 15, 2010 - 01:55pm PT
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the existence of emotions is at least tangential evidence of a soul. How so? You see, it's hard not to quibble when people say things like this. It's evidence that people get emotional. Why would emotions be evidence of a soul anymore than say people's propensity for yawning or biting their nails? Saying it doesn't make it so. Or does It?
And I am bothered how you conflagrate "atheists" and "agnostics" together. This is my fault. I have stated earlier that I am an atheist regarding all the old and current religions and religious thinking, and agnostic regarding the existence of god(s). Sorry for the confusion.
This acceptance of possibility is a tremendous advantage over the Atheist Possibly, but I sometimes think that being open to all possibilities is a bit much. Dig too many wells and none of them get very deep.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jan 15, 2010 - 02:00pm PT
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ok, "enlightenment" has a significance in the religious sense that very much differs from the dictionary meaning...this is a religious-oriented thread...there was a question about the meaning of "enlightenment"...i provided a meaning in the religious sense
religiously speaking, "enlightenment" refers to a state of being that transcends the physical...no, atheists cannot achieve enlightenment in this sense because they do not believe in the transcendent (that's not a criticism; it's a fact)
if you want to use the 17th and 18th century meanings, which refers strictly to an intellectual understanding of the physical world (i.e. knowing gravity causes objects to fall), then, yes, anyone can be 'enlightened'
ok, technically, the dalai lama (by the way, i was wrong, he's the 14th reincarnation) is a bodhisatva, which is the stage just before enlightenment...bodhisatvas have decided to postpone their own enlightenment in order to help others achieve enlightenment...though many adherents of tibetan buddhism believe the dalai lama to be enlightened, thus their veneration for him...but the whole premise of buddhism is the possibility of achieving enlightenment as did siddhartha gautama, the first buddha
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 15, 2010 - 06:18pm PT
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The soul is the seat of feelings, desires, and emotions. The non-material element of man, the most important part of human existence, as seen in the human personality. This element lives on after the death of the body, and will ultimately be joined again with a resurrected body to spend eternity in...
Just keeping it real
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jstan
climber
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Jan 15, 2010 - 06:53pm PT
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"proof that agw is a religion:"
Several days ago I suggested americans now consider politics to be a "religion". I also said that compromise. more compromise , followed by even more compromise is the only thing allowing a modern nation state to avoid becoming a failed state.
Anytime we find a body of legislators responding as a unified block across all issues that come before it, we know there is no compromise and that that state is headed for failure.
I can’t tell you how encouraging it is to see even one other person conclude, as have I, that religion and politics in the US have merged into a single entity.
Now as to Haiti:
Many years ago I read reports suggesting earthquakes from shallow sources could be affected by water in deep aquifers acting as a lubricant or otherwise reducing the strength of chemical bonds. There was speculation pumping water into deep wells might be a way to release stress at depth. Recently we had a surface landslide just north of Ventura along the coast where the court found in favor of litigants who claimed the slide was caused by irrigation of an avocado grove. Another recent example involved possible causes for a rock fall in Yosemite.
There have been many mud slides in Haiti caused by the nearly complete destruction of that country's forests in order to produce charcoal. Accelerated clear cutting of our own forests so that they might be more "healthy" causes, me at least, to be concerned there is potentially a parallel here in the US.
The first thing one might do to discover a basis for Mr. Glover's contention, would be to find the depth and location of the epicenter for the land movement that took place in Haiti.
So shall we try?
http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900SID/LPAA-7ZNB4Q?OpenDocument
Data, as of now, suggests the epicenter was very shallow as earthquakes go, about eight or nine miles down and located 10 miles west of Port au Prince along a major slip fault.
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/HaitiEarthquake/haiti-shallow-earthquake-magnified-damage-californias-san-andreas/story?id=9562379
I am not a structural geologist but I would think connecting an earthquake, even one this shallow to changes in surface water from either climate changes or the destruction of forests, is going to be difficult. The Dominican Republic has protected its forests and the epicenter was located further to the west. But I think one should not make too much out of that. Surely I would expect deforested areas to suffer additional slides in an earthquake as compared to less heavily clear cut areas.
Now the question of possible importance of water comes down to transfer time. The temperature and pressure at depth in the crust depends upon the nature of the overburden but we can find average values. At a depth of nine miles the temperature might be at about 540ºK and the pressure might be around 405 MPa. Water’s gas/liquid phase critical point is at an even higher temperature so the two phases are not yet indistinguishable. Using these numbers any H2O at this depth would seem to be liquid, providing it is pure. Which of course it won’t be. Arguably water can exist at depth. The question is how long does it take changes in water at the surface to propagate into changes at depth. Since we do not know the detailed nature of this overburden it is hard to say. We do know a fault is present.
In summary, without obtaining an idea of the rapidity with which surface changes can lead to changes at depth we cannot connect this event causally to what has been happening on the surface in recent history. I would expect the transfer rate is pretty slow but perhaps the structural geologists out there can help us out.
If we continue to treat decisions affecting the material world to be just another form of “belief”, all the work of George Washington’s people and of all those who followed will have come to naught.
Does the pleasure we get from “knowing” we have the only “true” belief justify sacrificing our country?
It would seem a number of people have decided - just this.
Edit:
I was responding to a post on this thread. If you think it might be of interest over there, be my guest. Cross post it. I did not catch your man-made post. Have to go look for it now.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 15, 2010 - 11:31pm PT
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Dr F -- "So if ...."
Always guessing, speculating and then finalizing your own pure brand of bullsh'it.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jan 15, 2010 - 11:39pm PT
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I guess the atom didn't exist before we could prove it did.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 15, 2010 - 11:39pm PT
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That's it .... keep on guessing and speculating, Dr F.
Real scientific .....
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 15, 2010 - 11:42pm PT
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Dr.F!
"All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust. Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth? ...and then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 3:20-21, 12:7.
Breath being the sign and symbol of life.
Both humans and beasts die and go to the grave. But this is not the end for human beings-they will face eternal life or death.
Man is body soul and spirit! Animals do not have a soul or spirit. They were not made in God's image. They seize to exist.
"Then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground(implies that there is nothing fancy about the chemical elements making up our bodies. The body is a lifeless shell until He breaths life into it)and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living being."
"Then God said, let us make man in Our image, according to our likeness." describes the infusion of the human spirit, with its moral, intellectual, relational, and spiritual capacities.
Humans are unique.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 15, 2010 - 11:48pm PT
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Animals do not have a soul or spirit.
That's not true at all. 10000 percent false.
That's the worst thing you've ever said.
Terrible ......
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 15, 2010 - 11:55pm PT
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Werner- "That's not true."
I'll be honest WB, I am not sure what happens to animals after death, and I was going to state that. They certainly have life, and distinct personalities. I just know that they are not judged, or held accountable as we are after life. Personally I hope my dogs will be with me for eternity.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 16, 2010 - 12:02am PT
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Humans have a distinct spirit.
We are body, soul, and spirit.
Nothing else living has a spirit that can commune with God!
What animals are...I do not know. I just know that humans are unique in that aspect.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 16, 2010 - 12:11am PT
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Dr.F- "Animals don't get any special treatment by God"
"Look at the birds of the air, for the neither sow nor reap, nor gather into barns, yet your heavenly Father feeds them..." Mathew 6:26(Jesus speaking).
Doc, open up the Bible and read it...might learn something new.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 16, 2010 - 12:20am PT
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Dr.F!
"Are not two sparrows sold for a cent, and yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father." Mathew 10:29.
Sounds like God is concerned about their well being, and protects and cares for them.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 16, 2010 - 12:22am PT
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Dr.F!
You should stop making false accusations about it then...sorta ruins your credibility.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 16, 2010 - 12:27am PT
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Humans have a distinct spirit.
We are body, soul, and spirit.
Nothing else living has a spirit that can commune with God!
TripL7,
I thought you earlier expressed an acceptance of evolution, though perhaps only as a part of God's creation. If so, would Neanderthal not have had a soul?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 16, 2010 - 12:29am PT
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MH2!
When did I express an exceptance of evolution? Never did. I believe we were created.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 16, 2010 - 12:37am PT
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As only as a part of God's creation. No! The closest I came to that was saying that perhaps God created the earth with age. Or that light shined instantly.
But frankly, I believe it is just as it is stated...six day's.
And as I have previously stated...believe He could have done it in six seconds if He had chose to. He took six day's to give us humans an example, that all work and no play(rest)is not healthy. That goes for the poor animals(beasts of burden)He was thinking as much of them as He was of us.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 16, 2010 - 12:47am PT
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I love how this thread somehow recovers its equilibrium each time I think it's finally going to implode. Great discussion between bc and Rox!
Dr. F-
There is no reason an atheist could not become enlightened. In fact there are schools of Buddhism which are thought to be atheistic or at least non theistic, especially the southern Theravada school which many believe to be the original Buddhism. Zen gets pretty close as well. Also in my experience, the Buddhists are the least sectarian of all the religious groups, which is a big plus in my books.
The reason I mention that dread word religion at all, is that at some point in time if you were to seriously pursue it, you are going to need the advice of someone more advanced than yourself. The pursuit of enlightenment is not for the faint hearted. In fact, if you wanted to do an analogy with climbing El Cap, that would work really well. You don't just go out and buy a rack and climb the thing. It takes many years to acquire that skill level, and you can have accidents along the way. You want the equivalent of YOSAR waiting in the wings.
Ed and I had quite a few discussions up thread about the unique electrical and biochemical processes that go on in the brain, in the process of that kind of training. These brain changes are just beginning to be measured. For those that experience them, there is no doubt however, that whatever it is, (God, one's own higher self, the vagaries of physiology when the brain concentrates on itself etc.), it works through the medium of the human brain. As the Buddhists say, we can only become enlightened in this body now.
The hardest part for many people, given the nature of the ego, is how to initiate the process. In my experience you don't have to make a formal declaration to or about anything outside yourself. All you have to do is say, "I'm open to the idea that there is something more in this universe/my own head, and I will be diligent in seeking it with an open mind from this point forth". For me, pretty dramatic biochemical changes began to happen soon after.
As for not getting results in the past, I think this could come from two things. You have a lot of internal garbage to work through and it's slow going (I come from a really dysfunctional family so I know that problem really well) or you were simply on the wrong path for your own talents and personality. Sometimes just changing the vocabulary you use, is enough to change your whole attitude and give a break through.
Meanwhile, we can all work on our own karma. If you do good for others, this makes you more receptive to your own higher nature and at the least people will say, what a kind hearted atheist.
What's to lose?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 16, 2010 - 01:00am PT
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Dr.F- "What about the people who can't read, how are they supposed to figure it out?"
Helen Keller figured it out!! She couldn't read write, hear see, talk...when she could communicate and was told about God/Jesus she said "I knew Him, I just didn't know His name."
God communicated with her.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 16, 2010 - 01:04am PT
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If we continue to treat decisions affecting the material world to be just another form of “belief”, all the work of George Washington’s people and of all those who followed will have come to naught.
An acquaintance of mine mentioned that he had recently seen one of those nighttime views of the planet. The East Coast of North America was a solid blaze of light. There was a noticeable crescent probably around Chicago. The West Coast was bright from Vancouver down to San Diego or thereabouts. Large parts of the Mid West and the Mountain states were dark. Especially Idaho, Rox.
We have also been hearing about planet-wide warming, melting ice, rising sea levels, and the disaster that could result.
Geology prof Tim Mutch, he of a couple of Gunks FAs, once told his class that, whether the Gaia Hypothesis was a notion any hard-headed scientist might care to entertain, it did seem, when one thought about it, that the planet must have maintained a reasonable degree of equilibrium one way or another for a long long time. His example was the salinity of the oceans, which get sodium, chlorine, magnesium, and such from rivers, and unless they had a way to lose salts would become saturated. Tim Mutch explained that over the long stretches of geologic time, as tectonic plates shifted, parts of ocean became inland seas such as the one that covered a large part of North America. These inland seas were comparatively shallow, ultimately dried up, and the salt deposits are now safely under such places as Rochester, NY.
Whether that story about maintaining the salinity of the oceans is true or just a fable, I don't know. But I did get an eerie sensation when my friend mentioned the light-the-night evidence of human coastal habitation, all the automobiles and energy it signified, and thought about a slow-but-sure planet reacting to that fire by raising sea level to put it out.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 16, 2010 - 01:06am PT
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"Any real God would be out there for everybody".
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son..."
"Sorry for the fun 777."
No need to be sorry Doc!!
Having plenty of fun...Hahaha.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 16, 2010 - 01:11am PT
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But frankly, I believe it is just as it is stated...six day's.
Well, take me for a hamburger! All this time I didn't realize we had an old-skool Creationist with us. Wonders never cease.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 16, 2010 - 01:16am PT
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NORTON!
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jstan
climber
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Jan 16, 2010 - 01:21am PT
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This was bad. I deleted it.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 16, 2010 - 01:40am PT
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An interesting story from the life of the Buddha.
On the banks of the Ganges, Buddha encountered a yogi who could walk on water all the across the mile wide river and was consequently very proud of himself. The Buddha asked him how many years it took to learn that trick and it turned out to be many. What a pity, the Buddha remarked, for you have cheated the ferryman out of his fare, and wasted a lot of time on a cheap trick when you could have been seeking enlightenment.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 16, 2010 - 02:04am PT
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Also bad, also deleted.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 16, 2010 - 02:07am PT
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The plans of the heart belong to man,
but the answer of the tongue is from the Lord.
The Sadducees Ask About the Resurrection
Mark 12:18-27, And Sadducees came to him, who say that there is no resurrection. And they asked him a question, saying, “Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother dies and leaves a wife, but leaves no child, the man must take the widow and raise up offspring for his brother. There were seven brothers; the first took a wife, and when he died left no offspring. And the second took her, and died, leaving no offspring. And the third likewise. And the seven left no offspring. Last of all the woman also died. In the resurrection, when they rise again, whose wife will she be? For the seven had her as wife.”
Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God? For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong.”
The Rich Man and Lazarus
Luke 16:19-31, “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— for I have five brothers —so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.2) By John MacArthur http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
You Will Not Abandon My Soul
A Miktam of David.
Psalm 16, Preserve me, O God, for in you I take refuge.
I say to the Lord, “You are my Lord;
I have no good apart from you.”
As for the saints in the land, they are the excellent ones,
in whom is all my delight.
The sorrows of those who run after another god shall multiply;
their drink offerings of blood I will not pour out
or take their names on my lips.
The Lord is my chosen portion and my cup;
you hold my lot.
The lines have fallen for me in pleasant places;
indeed, I have a beautiful inheritance.
I bless the Lord who gives me counsel;
in the night also my heart instructs me.
I have set the Lord always before me;
because he is at my right hand, I shall not be shaken.
Therefore my heart is glad, and my whole being rejoices;
my flesh also dwells secure.
For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol,
or let your holy one see corruption.
You make known to me the path of life;
in your presence there is fullness of joy;
at your right hand are pleasures forevermore.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 16, 2010 - 03:15pm PT
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TripL7 said:
The closest I came to that was saying that perhaps God created the earth with age. Or that light shined instantly.
So a few thousand years ago God created spacetime, billions of galaxies, jiggered the speed of light, added a microwave background, left a bunch of fossils on planet earth, and produced maybe 100 million different kinds of bacteria and a small miscellany of other life forms, when all he really needed was a vaccuum fluctuation or singularity if he had started earlier?
You might do well to contemplate:
What a pity, the Buddha remarked, for you have cheated the ferryman out of his fare, and wasted a lot of time on a cheap trick when you could have been seeking enlightenment.
The old New Yorker cartoon. Two women in beach chairs. One telling the other, "I stopped listening to reason and my headache went away."
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 16, 2010 - 03:52pm PT
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As only as a part of God's creation. No! The closest I came to that was saying that perhaps God created the earth with age. Or that light shined instantly.
But frankly, I believe it is just as it is stated...six day's.
Wouldn't the "Six days" be a prime example of something to be taken metaphorically?
After all, when the Sun and the Earth haven't even been created yet, how do you define a day?
Christianity isn't a scientific religion that aims to explain the cosmos. It's a devotional religion when you purify your heart and are transformed by radical love. By trying to tweak science out of the Bible, Christians expose themselves to folly.
Peace
Karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 16, 2010 - 05:45pm PT
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Karl- "Trying to tweak science out of the Bible".
I could care less what science comes up with. And have no interest in trying to determine how God created the universe. And in an other 10, 100, 1,000 years if they are given the time, science will have new ways of determining the age of the earth and excuses for the flagrant failures of current day tests to evaluate time and the earth and universe.
God created time...Saint Augustine stated this over 500 years ago! And now , after all these years, modern day physics came to the same conclusion. Time had a beggining...go figure!!
"A day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like a day!" I can comprehend this!
I have a relationship that you can not comprehend. That is what I have to share! I personally know this Creator. He has done miraculous things in my life.
I don't need to have anything proved to me!
If He said He did it in a day, He did it in a day. He has already proved His existence to me...why should I question His ability to get his Word to all mankind?
I look at the universe and marvel at His majesty. You look at it and wonder were it all came from...something from nothing.
And then attempt to humiliate me with snipes and snide remarks "wonders never seize".
"The blind leading the blind."
EDIT: Karl, only that I am not interested in tweaking out science from the Bible applies to you...the rest is directed towards MH2 et al.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 16, 2010 - 06:04pm PT
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Dude, I respect your faith, I'm just encouraging you to do so with wisdom and discernment.
When Christ and the disciples were getting ready to enter a village to preach, he told them not to eat the local bread. The disciples got worried about hunger with no bread but Jesus basically said "look dummies, I'm talking about the 'spiritual bread' of their beliefs, not the literal bread"
so when you write
If He said He did it in a day, He did it in a day. He has already proved His existence to me...why should I question His ability to get his Word
to all mankind?
I'm just saying you're taking it too literally. A day doesn't mean a day so why jump through hoops to make it so. For Humans, a day means the revolution of the earth on it's axis. No sun, no earth and a day has no meaning that we understand.
Peace
Karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 16, 2010 - 08:10pm PT
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Karl, I also have respect for your beliefs, insight, and perspective.
Thanks for the encouragement!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 16, 2010 - 08:17pm PT
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Proverbs 16:5, Whoever mocks the poor insults his Maker;
he who is glad at calamity will not go unpunished.
Prayers and good will for Haiti!
My daughter had me send her next three weeks allowance to,
http://www.clintonbushhaitifund.com
...
That Wile E Jester, Norwegian said;
"l vs 1. numeralogy wins everytime."
Finally, we agree on something;
Deuteronomy 6:4, “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
...
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.2) By John MacArthur http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
In the Shadow of Your Wings
A Prayer of David.
Psalm 17, Hear a just cause, O Lord; attend to my cry!
Give ear to my prayer from lips free of deceit!
2 From your presence let my vindication come!
Let your eyes behold the right!
3 You have tried my heart, you have visited me by night,
you have tested me, and you will find nothing;
I have purposed that my mouth will not transgress.
4 With regard to the works of man, by the word of your lips
I have avoided the ways of the violent.
5 My steps have held fast to your paths;
my feet have not slipped.
6 I call upon you, for you will answer me, O God;
incline your ear to me; hear my words.
7 Wondrously show your steadfast love,
O Savior of those who seek refuge
from their adversaries at your right hand.
8 Keep me as the apple of your eye;
hide me in the shadow of your wings,
9 from the wicked who do me violence,
my deadly enemies who surround me.
10 They close their hearts to pity;
with their mouths they speak arrogantly.
11 They have now surrounded our steps;
they set their eyes to cast us to the ground.
12 He is like a lion eager to tear,
as a young lion lurking in ambush.
13 Arise, O Lord! Confront him, subdue him!
Deliver my soul from the wicked by your sword,
14 from men by your hand, O Lord,
from men of the world whose portion is in this life.
You fill their womb with treasure;
they are satisfied with children,
and they leave their abundance to their infants.
15 As for me, I shall behold your face in righteousness;
when I awake, I shall be satisfied with your likeness
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 16, 2010 - 08:39pm PT
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But now my mind is filled with rubber tires
and forest fires and whether I'm a liar
and lots of other situations where I don't know
what to do at which time God screams to me
“There's nothing left for me to tell you."
"Nothing left for me to tell you."
"Nothing left.”
Oh well, oh well, oh well,
Oh well,
Oh well, oh well, oh well.
Oh well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMBvj20umQE
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MH2
climber
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Jan 17, 2010 - 12:31am PT
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I have a relationship that you can not comprehend. That is what I have to share!
I see the problem, then.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 17, 2010 - 01:53am PT
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Get a life.
Are you worried about dealing with literalists?
Just to be cautious I did consult the dictionary. It was confusing at best.
Trying the heuristic (involving or serving as an aid to learning, discovery, or problem-solving by experimental and especially trial-and-error methods) approach.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 17, 2010 - 02:31am PT
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Why worry about a Dr F, Rox.
He's a nobody and not any authority on anything except his own bullsh'it about this subject matter in this thread.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 17, 2010 - 07:52am PT
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So I am likely one of the worlds few professed agnostics (or non-christian ) believers in Christ
I think you'd be amazed at how many non Christian believers in Christ there are. There's a couple hundred million in Asia at least.
The reality is, Christ does not belong exclusively to the Christians nor Buddha to the Buddhists in our new global culture.
Nor can anyone control anymore how people interpret the various scriptures of the world, which in any case will not be the same interpretation as that of western fundamentalists.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 17, 2010 - 05:37pm PT
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Thank you, Rokjox.
Eerie that I just spoke with my Mom on the phone and she brought up Bertrand Russell's Why I Am Not a Christian.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 17, 2010 - 07:02pm PT
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My browser can open this one.
Bertrand Russell on religion published in 1930.
http://www.solstice.us/russell/religionciv.html
It begins thusly:
My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race. I cannot, however, deny that it has made some contributions to civilization. It helped in early days to fix the calendar, and it caused Egyptian priests to chronicle eclipses with such care that in time they became able to predict them. These two services I am prepared to acknowledge, but I do not know of any others.
The word religion is used nowadays in a very loose sense. Some people, under the influence of extreme Protestantism, employ the word to denote any serious personal convictions as to morals or the nature of the universe. This use of the word is quite unhistorical.
Religion is primarily a social phenomenon.
Churches may owe their origin to teachers with strong individual convictions, but these teachers have seldom had much influence upon the churches that they have founded, whereas churches have had enormous influence upon the communities in which they flourished.
To take the case that is of most interest to members of Western civilization: the teaching of Christ, as it appears in the Gospels, has had extraordinarily little to do with the ethics of Christians. The most important thing about Christianity, from a social and historical point of view, is not Christ but the church, and if we are to judge of Christianity as a social force we must not go to the Gospels for our material.
Christ taught that you should give your goods to the poor, that you should not fight, that you should not go to church, and that you should not punish adultery. Neither Catholics nor Protestants have shown any strong desire to follow His teaching in any of these respects. Some of the Franciscans, it is true, attempted to teach the doctrine of apostolic poverty, but the Pope condemned them, and their doctrine was declared heretical. Or, again, consider such a text as "Judge not, that ye be not judged," and ask yourself what influence such a text has had upon the Inquisition and the Ku Klux Klan.
End of excerpt.
Bertrand Russell gives us the reason, as Jan points out, why there are so many non christian followers of christ. Churches do not follow the teachings of the person founding them. To the extent this is true,............. "no christian" is a follower of christ. You can argue the people who give value to christ's actual teachings, as best we know them, are atheists, agnostics, Hindi (Mahatma Gandhi is an incredible example).
If you look at what Gandhi did and how he went about it, we, clearly, have seen christ's second coming. We shot him this time.
Why do we keep arguing this?
We (xxxxxxx believe xxxxxx) THINK christ said many things of value. And we think each of us is attempting to do good.
But it really is important that we know we are actually following the precepts we "believe" we are following.
If we do not do this, we find ourselves committing murder with eyes cast heavenward.
Oblivious.
History has long shown this to be true.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 17, 2010 - 10:27pm PT
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Well guys, you're going to laugh a lot at this, but I was a big Bertrand Russell fan in high school and a confirmed atheist in those days too. In fact, I almost got kicked off the student council for carrying a copy of Why I am not a Christian around as the school principle didn't think you could be a good council member if you weren't a Christian (my home town was so lily white, I had to go to university to meet a Jewish person for the first time).
I migrated from Russell to the existentialists and then decided, either I was going to kill myself and get this meaningless depressing existence over with, or I was going to stop reading that stuff and look for something more positive. The next phase was Zen which lasted several years and then I went to the Himalayas and was introduced to Tibetan Buddhism which fit much better. Eventually, I came to have an appreciation for the teachings of Christ and go to Christian church once in a while even. And I hold it all together with the universal teachings of Vedanta, which was the Hindu intellectual's reaction to Buddhism.
So be careful of Bertrand Russell, you never can tell where he might lead!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 17, 2010 - 10:55pm PT
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Thanks for that, Jan. It would be interesting to see the waypoints on everyone else's path through these different world views as well. Probably a lot of correspondences. From experience I definitely agree, for example, that Tibetan Buddhism is a great cure for too much Sartre.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 17, 2010 - 11:23pm PT
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Yes, I'm always interested in people's life stories and how they got to where they are (I'm a social anthropologists after all). One interesting thing I have discovered in the last couple of years through doing genealogical research, is how many ministers I have in various lines of ancestors. This of course lends credence to the idea of a genetic predisposition toward the philosophical and spiritual. I was quite surprised at this since my own father was an atheist geologist and my mother had been turned off of organized religion at a young age so I was raised in a secular home although my mother passed along her Quaker ethics.
If you want to read about a real character, my great great grandfather Potter fits that bill. He used to preach in the wildest Texas saloons with his winchester leaned against the makeshift pulpit, and if the hecklers got really mean, with his pistol in one hand and Bible in the other! I am but a pale shadow in comparison.
http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/PP/fpo28.html
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 17, 2010 - 11:49pm PT
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Dr F -- ".... smartist people the most likely to be athiests?"
Nope you're the dumbest one. You're so stupid you say these stupid things and then can't even spell.
If you're gonna make a remark like the smartest one at least be smart enough to be able to spell.
I'm you're worst nightmare come true ..........
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 18, 2010 - 12:01am PT
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at least be smart enough to be able to spell.
I'm you're worst nightmare come true ..........
oh the irony.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 18, 2010 - 12:10am PT
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Yes, I'm always interested in people's life stories and how they got to where they are
Absolutely. I especially like the bits of their own history that posters mention on this thread. And we are all telling parts of our life story, basically, or views formed by that story.
14 children! Those were different times.
When our nursing home residents die, the Activities Director puts up short descriptions of their lives on a bulletin board. Nothing fancy, just a few simple facts. Many came from large families.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 18, 2010 - 02:41am PT
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There is always something greater then us and less then us!
God does not owe us anything, we owe Him everything!
It's by grace that we have been saved!
Proverbs 18:10-11, The name of the Lord is a strong tower;
the righteous man runs into it and is safe.
A rich man's wealth is his strong city,
and like a high wall in his imagination.
The Lord Is My Rock and My Fortress
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David, the servant of the Lord, who addressed the words of this song to the Lord on the day when the Lord rescued him from the hand of all his enemies, and from the hand of Saul. He said:
Psalms 18, I love you, O Lord, my strength.
2 The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer,
my God, my rock, in whom I take refuge,
my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.
3 I call upon the Lord, who is worthy to be praised,
and I am saved from my enemies.
4 The cords of death encompassed me;
the torrents of destruction assailed me;
5 the cords of Sheol entangled me;
the snares of death confronted me.
6 In my distress I called upon the Lord;
to my God I cried for help.
From his temple he heard my voice,
and my cry to him reached his ears.
7 Then the earth reeled and rocked;
the foundations also of the mountains trembled
and quaked, because he was angry.
8 Smoke went up from his nostrils,
and devouring fire from his mouth;
glowing coals flamed forth from him.
9 He bowed the heavens and came down;
thick darkness was under his feet.
10 He rode on a cherub and flew;
he came swiftly on the wings of the wind.
11 He made darkness his covering, his canopy around him,
thick clouds dark with water.
12 Out of the brightness before him
hailstones and coals of fire broke through his clouds.
13 The Lord also thundered in the heavens,
and the Most High uttered his voice,
hailstones and coals of fire.
14 And he sent out his arrows and scattered them;
he flashed forth lightnings and routed them.
15 Then the channels of the sea were seen,
and the foundations of the world were laid bare
at your rebuke, O Lord,
at the blast of the breath of your nostrils.
16 He sent from on high, he took me;
he drew me out of many waters.
17 He rescued me from my strong enemy
and from those who hated me,
for they were too mighty for me.
18 They confronted me in the day of my calamity,
but the Lord was my support.
19 He brought me out into a broad place;
he rescued me, because he delighted in me.
20 The Lord dealt with me according to my righteousness;
according to the cleanness of my hands he rewarded me.
21 For I have kept the ways of the Lord,
and have not wickedly departed from my God.
22 For all his rules were before me,
and his statutes I did not put away from me.
23 I was blameless before him,
and I kept myself from my guilt.
24 So the Lord has rewarded me according to my righteousness,
according to the cleanness of my hands in his sight.
25 With the merciful you show yourself merciful;
with the blameless man you show yourself blameless;
26 with the purified you show yourself pure;
and with the crooked you make yourself seem tortuous.
27 For you save a humble people,
but the haughty eyes you bring down.
28 For it is you who light my lamp;
the Lord my God lightens my darkness.
29 For by you I can run against a troop,
and by my God I can leap over a wall.
30 This God—his way is perfect;
the word of the Lord proves true;
he is a shield for all those who take refuge in him.
31 For who is God, but the Lord?
And who is a rock, except our God?—
32 the God who equipped me with strength
and made my way blameless.
33 He made my feet like the feet of a deer
and set me secure on the heights.
34 He trains my hands for war,
so that my arms can bend a bow of bronze.
35 You have given me the shield of your salvation,
and your right hand supported me,
and your gentleness made me great.
36 You gave a wide place for my steps under me,
and my feet did not slip.
37 I pursued my enemies and overtook them,
and did not turn back till they were consumed.
38 I thrust them through, so that they were not able to rise;
they fell under my feet.
39 For you equipped me with strength for the battle;
you made those who rise against me sink under me.
40 You made my enemies turn their backs to me,
and those who hated me I destroyed.
41 They cried for help, but there was none to save;
they cried to the Lord, but he did not answer them.
42 I beat them fine as dust before the wind;
I cast them out like the mire of the streets.
43 You delivered me from strife with the people;
you made me the head of the nations;
people whom I had not known served me.
44 As soon as they heard of me they obeyed me;
foreigners came cringing to me.
45 Foreigners lost heart
and came trembling out of their fortresses.
46 The Lord lives, and blessed be my rock,
and exalted be the God of my salvation—
47 the God who gave me vengeance
and subdued peoples under me,
48 who delivered me from my enemies;
yes, you exalted me above those who rose against me;
you rescued me from the man of violence.
49 For this I will praise you, O Lord, among the nations,
and sing to your name.
50 Great salvation he brings to his king,
and shows steadfast love to his anointed,
to David and his offspring forever.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 18, 2010 - 03:16am PT
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Hey, wait a minute...
On the previous page, Andy posted a bunch of pictures. You know, the usual Andy stuff. Flowers, and bouldering by the sea, and... And then, the very last picture...
It's Jesus!
In Lighthouse Park in West Vancouver!
Holy Moly! 5,000 posts about religion, and Andy just nails it down with one picture.
Well, that's it for me, then. I'm converted. And I'll be on the next bus to Vancouver, for sure.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 18, 2010 - 03:52pm PT
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Gobee, once more
God does not owe us anything, we owe Him everything!
He's welcome to it when I'm through with it.
Good thing you are headed up here, Ghost. You are overdue collecting your prize.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 18, 2010 - 04:31pm PT
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Jan!
Wow! Your Great Gram-pa was, the man! What a life. Cavalryman, cowboy, California Gold rush, traveling preacher..."The Fighting Parson"! And he gave his last sermon and died in the pulpit. What a life!!
Does he have any memoirs or did he keep a diary?
Sure would make a fascinating story!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 18, 2010 - 04:36pm PT
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MH2!
Yea, those are some beautiful photos!
Yesterday, I was trying to figure out where it was. Thought it was maybe Chesapeake Bay.
Nice, Thanks!!
EDIT: I noticed Ghost's post saying it was Vancouver! Canada is hard to beat for beautiful coastline(I am from Cape Breton, Nova Scotia).
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 18, 2010 - 06:52pm PT
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...get this meaningless depressing existence over with...
Why is it that you can't perceive or derive "meaning" in the existence of planetary life just as it is? And why do you find a lack of [anthropocentric] "meaning" depressing?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 18, 2010 - 07:01pm PT
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Dr.F-
I have a relationship, there is nothing that can change that! There is nothing that can come in-between me and Him. I know Him.
This is not some warm and fuzzy feeling. This is the Creator of the universe that I know. He is capable of revealing, making Himself known to anyone who asks! I did at 8 yrs old!
Fossils? So what.
Personally I don't give a damn what any mere man or scientist declares or discovers. I say great. Fossils are awesome. I love to-look at them, and petrified wood. And shells found only in the sea and then are found on mountain tops(how did they get there?Maybe a flood) and valleys.
But it is not my focus. I don't realy care!!!
If you know someone, say a mother or father etc. is anything going to change that? Some discovery, some guy without a clue making assumptions on the Internet saying that they don.t exist?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 18, 2010 - 09:00pm PT
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What about the flies of Lake Malawi which live at great depths in a larval form form for most of their lives only surfacing as adults in great mating swarms to lay more eggs and then promptly die. What's the "meaning" involved.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 18, 2010 - 09:06pm PT
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Rokjox:
But in the end, I decided I just didn't understand what happened, but that I would take it at face value, and just accept that it was real, that it did happen.
As someone who has poked micro-electrodes into nerves and read a lot of papers in the field, I would say that your senses are precision instruments. You can trust them above all else. Except a good math theorem, of course.
At more inward parts of the nervous system there is a strong need to interpret what the senses have reported. Sort of like the CIA evaluating the reports of agents but a lot less prone to error. If you have no previous history with an event or class of events then it can be confusing and your brain may try to fit the experience into a slot it doesn't comfortably occupy.
Sometimes it may be better to ignore what the mind suggests and focus on the sense impressions.
Earlier jstan mentioned a talk in which it was said that the eye could detect single photons. This was established long ago at the receptor level, but it is of its nature a statement of probability, since the experimenter can only be sure of directing a single photon at the receptor as an average over many trials, I think. Again operating by averaging many responses, and perhaps more incredible than the single-photon sensitivity, is the result that people can consciously detect somewhere between 5 and 9 photons, at the minimum. That's pretty damn sensitive.
The ear is pretty good too. They say that if it were any more sensitive we would be hearing Brownian motion of air molecules.
I think it is quite interesting that there are two very different ways to view this kind of thing; glass half full or glass half empty. Either the at-the-physical-limit of our primary senses is a marvelous wonder of the natural world, or it is a grim reminder of the extreme pressures of natural selection. What did we need to see in the dark that was so important that 50-90 photons weren't good enough?
TripL7:
The pictures are all from the same day and within about 5 minutes of where I live in Vancouver. Cape Breton is even more beautiful. I hope there are no hard feelings if I am skeptical about the Universe, Life, and Everything being created only a few thousand years ago. You are quite right that you don't really need science or scientists. I think the Amish are more likely to inherit the earth.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 18, 2010 - 10:03pm PT
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MH2!
Thanks for the kind words. But of course I do greatly appreciate science and scientist! We wouldn't be having this conversation otherwise. Canada is beautiful, I wish I never left. I am glad that you are able to appreciate it(and share).
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 18, 2010 - 10:21pm PT
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You can find spiritual truths in the Bible Doc!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 18, 2010 - 10:23pm PT
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Dr.F!
Do you believe that science can account for everything?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 18, 2010 - 10:31pm PT
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Proverbs 19:2-3, Desire without knowledge is not good,
and whoever makes haste with his feet misses his way.
When a man's folly brings his way to ruin,
his heart rages against the Lord
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.2) By John MacArthur http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
John 14:27-28, Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid. You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
Jeremiah 31:15-30, Thus says the Lord:
“A voice is heard in Ramah,
lamentation and bitter weeping.
Rachel is weeping for her children;
she refuses to be comforted for her children,
because they are no more.”
Thus says the Lord:
“Keep your voice from weeping,
and your eyes from tears,
for there is a reward for your work,
declares the Lord,
and they shall come back from the land of the enemy.
There is hope for your future,
declares the Lord,
and your children shall come back to their own country.
I have heard Ephraim grieving,
‘You have disciplined me, and I was disciplined,
like an untrained calf;
bring me back that I may be restored,
for you are the Lord my God.
For after I had turned away, I relented,
and after I was instructed, I struck my thigh;
I was ashamed, and I was confounded,
because I bore the disgrace of my youth.’
Is Ephraim my dear son?
Is he my darling child?
For as often as I speak against him,
I do remember him still.
Therefore my heart yearns for him;
I will surely have mercy on him,
declares the Lord.
“Set up road markers for yourself;
make yourself guideposts;
consider well the highway,
the road by which you went.
Return, O virgin Israel,
return to these your cities.
How long will you waver,
O faithless daughter?
For the Lord has created a new thing on the earth:
a woman encircles a man.”
Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: “Once more they shall use these words in the land of Judah and in its cities, when I restore their fortunes:
“‘The Lord bless you, O habitation of righteousness,
O holy hill!’
And Judah and all its cities shall dwell there together, and the farmers and those who wander with their flocks. For I will satisfy the weary soul, and every languishing soul I will replenish.”
At this I awoke and looked, and my sleep was pleasant to me.
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and the seed of beast. And it shall come to pass that as I have watched over them to pluck up and break down, to overthrow, destroy, and bring harm, so I will watch over them to build and to plant, declares the Lord. In those days they shall no longer say:
“‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
and the children's teeth are set on edge.’
But everyone shall die for his own sin. Each man who eats sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge.
Jesus Weeps over Jerusalem
Luke 19:41-44, And when he drew near and saw the city, he wept over it, saying, “Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. For the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up a barricade around you and surround you and hem you in on every side and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”
The Mystery of Israel's Salvation
Romans 11:25-27, Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
“**and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins**.”
The Law of the Lord Is Perfect
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David.
Psalm 19, The heavens declare the glory of God,
and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.
2 Day to day pours out speech,
and night to night reveals knowledge.
3 There is no speech, nor are there words,
whose voice is not heard.
4 Their voice goes out through all the earth,
and their words to the end of the world.
In them he has set a tent for the sun,
5 which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber,
and, like a strong man, runs its course with joy.
6 Its rising is from the end of the heavens,
and its circuit to the end of them,
and there is nothing hidden from its heat.
7 The law of the Lord is perfect,
reviving the soul;
the testimony of the Lord is sure,
making wise the simple;
8 the precepts of the Lord are right,
rejoicing the heart;
the commandment of the Lord is pure,
enlightening the eyes;
9 the fear of the Lord is clean,
enduring forever;
the rules of the Lord are true,
and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold,
even much fine gold;
sweeter also than honey
and drippings of the honeycomb.
11 Moreover, by them is your servant warned;
in keeping them there is great reward.
12 Who can discern his errors?
Declare me innocent from hidden faults.
13 Keep back your servant also from presumptuous sins;
let them not have dominion over me!
Then I shall be blameless,
and innocent of great transgression.
14 Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
be acceptable in your sight,
O Lord, my rock and my redeemer.
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trudat
Big Wall climber
far far away
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Jan 18, 2010 - 10:41pm PT
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Thanks Dr F
you made my day
now stop your nagging and nagging and nagging over the most idiotic of causes
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 18, 2010 - 10:49pm PT
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"The truth is found in the dirt, you can not fake fossils, they tell a great story, and I will follow it"
Dirt nap?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 18, 2010 - 10:49pm PT
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A question for Mh2-
Have there been studies (there must have been) on people whose senses are keener than normal and how this might relate to altered perception and mystical experiences?
For example I have a much keener sense of smell than others and can hear both higher and lower frequencies than average, neither of which are particularly great to have in everyday life (high pitched whining transformers that drive me crazy that no one else can hear for example).
I am also extremely sensitive to air pressure changes and can predict a weather change before the barometer even falls. I seem to be able to sense earthquakes at times thousands of miles away, particularly if I've been meditating a lot. I feel it then read about it the next day, facilitated of course by sleeping on the floor on a small island surrounded by thousands of miles of water.
I think a lot of supposed ESP and shamanistic abilities in the past must have come from these genetic anomalies (my father had them also). Alternatively, one could say that some people are born with better karma for experiencing these things than others.
Surely there is a publication somewhere which lists the range extremes for sensory perception?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 18, 2010 - 10:53pm PT
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Meanwhile to the aggressive atheists around here. You might want to ponder the case of the Jews. They endured the most awful persecutions for millenia and kept the faith. It is only here in modern America where they aren't persecuted, that they are voluntarily assimilating and giving it up. Perhaps there is a moral here?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jan 18, 2010 - 10:55pm PT
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Christ taught that you should give your goods to the poor, that you should not fight, that you should not go to church, and that you should not punish adultery. Neither Catholics nor Protestants have shown any strong desire to follow His teaching in any of these respects. Some of the Franciscans, it is true, attempted to teach the doctrine of apostolic poverty, but the Pope condemned them, and their doctrine was declared heretical. Or, again, consider such a text as "Judge not, that ye be not judged," and ask yourself what influence such a text has had upon the Inquisition and the Ku Klux Klan. Bertrand Russell
John, you can do better then this. This is a very simplistic and literal view of what Jesus taught. Expand your mind John. The story about the rich man was given to show how material wealth can keep one from truly knowing God, because to know God you have to realize that God is your source. Material wealth can keep one from realizing this as one can learn to depend on the wealth instead of God. So the story isn't a blanket statement to give away all of ones wealth, it is a teaching about the dangers of wealth. The story illustrates this by showing that the wealthy man, who said he recognized Jesus as the Christ and thus the way to salvation, could not bring himself to give up his wealth. Thus proving that he valued material security over spiritual security.
It is just too bad that many modern Christians accept this story to mean that they have to be poor to know God. Many modern Christians are literalist and the bible is full of symbols and metaphors. It just isn't true that you have to give everything away. And thus you have blind men like Betrand Russel, who sounds wise, but is ignorant of the depth of spirituality and thus can not lead you to the Truth. Find a better teacher John. The one you have is blind to the Truth. The bible says that he and his followers will end up in a ditch.
This is no different then the trouble that modern americans have in understanding the middle eastern mind. Americans are direct and literal and middle easterners are indirect and use metaphors. Their speech is laced with symbols and to understand them and their stories, one must understand this.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 18, 2010 - 11:03pm PT
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The truth is that all mythical forms from Christianity to Oak Tree Worship are metaphors.
The mistake in Christianity or any religion is to read metaphorical forms as accurate historical fact.
These metaphors reconcile us to the remarkable mystery of existence, but ultimately they are only delusions... helpful delusions, perhaps, but still delusions.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 18, 2010 - 11:16pm PT
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Science cannot account for everything!
There are any number of things that can't be proven scientifically, but are rational to except.
Logical and mathematical truths can not be proven by science! Science presupposes science and math. So to try and prove them by science would be arguing in a circle!
Metaphysical truths, such as there are other minds than my own, or that the external world is real, or that the past was not created five minutes ago with the appearance of age, are rational beliefs that cannot be scientifically proven.
Ethical beliefs, about the statement of value are not accessible by the scientific method. You can't show by science, that the Nazi scientist in the camps did anything evil as opposed to the scientist in western democracy's.
Ascetic judgements cannot be accessed by scientific methods, because the beautiful like the good cannot be scientifically proven.
Science cannot be justified by the scientific method. Science is permeated with unprovable assumptions. For example in the special theory of relativity, the whole theory hinges on the assumption that the speed of light is constant between any two points A and B. But that strictly can knott be proven, we have to assume that in order to hold to the theory!!
EDIT: The question Dr.F was, can science account for everything? The answer is NO!! ^^^^see above for a few examples^^^^^!!!!
~777~
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jan 18, 2010 - 11:33pm PT
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”The truth is found in the dirt, you can not fake fossils, they tell a great story, and I will follow it”
“they cannot be faked, or misunderstood, billions of years of step by step change”
The Piltdown man “fossil” was indeed faked and was considered legitimate for forty years.
The Piltdown fraud had significant impact on early research on human evolution. Scientists were led down a dead end in the belief that the human brain expanded in size before the jaw adapted to new types of food. Discoveries of Australopithecine fossils found in the 1920s in South Africa were IGNORED because of Piltdown man, and the reconstruction of human evolution was thrown off track for many years. The assumed validity of Piltdown man led to a vast expenditure of time and effort on this “fossil”. Many scientific papers were written on Piltdown.
Clarence Darrow even used the Piltdown “fossil” as evidence the 1925 Scopes Monkey Trial.
Piltdown was the most famous forgery and is evidence fossils can be faked . And legitimate fossils found in South Africa were greatly misunderstood as a result.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 18, 2010 - 11:39pm PT
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trudat- "Thanks Dr F, you made my day..."
Doesn't take much to please you!!
Fossils? Proove that there is no God?
Your putting alott of FAITH in dating systems that have failed in the past.
EDIT: Like I said up thread "Blind leading the blind!"(Spritualy blind)!!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 18, 2010 - 11:43pm PT
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7^3 wrote: For example in the special theory of relativity, the whole theory hinges on the assumption that the speed of light is constant between any two points A and B. But that strictly can knott be proven, we have to assume that in order to hold to the theory!!
which is a misrepresentation of what science is about. One can make the hypothesis that the speed of light is constant, and test the results of that hypothesis experimentally. So far, all tests have results consistent with that hypothesis, and the Special Theory of Relativity.
There is a deeper meaning of this, which is the Lorentz invariance of the universe, which makes Special Relativity a part of the fabric of the universe, a fundamental symmetry. What gives rise to these symmetries is the subject of active research.
It may be that someday we'll observe/experiment and find observations that disagree with the statement that the speed of light is constant, and the same in all inertial reference frames, but it will not "disprove" Special Relativity, which will remain correct in the physical regime it describes.
As I have said many times, if you are looking for "The Truth" you won't find it in science, science shifts and changes as we see deeper and farther...
...it gets better and more nuanced, and explains more and more.
Who knows, maybe someday it will even explain mathematics.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jan 18, 2010 - 11:43pm PT
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Dr F. One thing many climbers say they enjoy the most is the thrill of discovery. If God gave us every answer, then we would lose that. We would all be prebolted grid climbers. The answers are there, you have to know how to find them.
You never did answer my question.
What if your instruments are not capable of finding God? Then what? How would you know? We didn't prove the atom for a very long time. What if we simply don't have the instruments capable of seeing God?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 18, 2010 - 11:52pm PT
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Regardless, I hold science in high esteem. Half of us probably wouldn't be here without all the medical breakthroughs etc. Like I've said, if I had it to do over I would probably majored in astronomy or astrophysics or geology etc. It has always intrigued me. It would be realy cool to be a CSI dude!!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 18, 2010 - 11:58pm PT
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Ed, Thanks!!
I am just a noob when it comes to science.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 19, 2010 - 12:01am PT
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You might want to ponder the case of the Jews
I'd rather ponder the case of the Lake Malawi flies, or are their lives simply without meaning?
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MH2
climber
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Jan 19, 2010 - 12:24am PT
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Who knows, maybe someday it will even explain mathematics.
Good one!
Jan,
I don't know that much about sensory physiology and was far too brief and outright wrong in what I said about hearing. Our ear is actually several orders of magnitude less sensitive than what it would take to hear thermal motion of air molecules. However, it also depends a lot on what frequencies we look at and how long we let the ear collect the energy. Even a weak push with the right period can under favorable circumstances get a large object moving. A pendulum, say, or an eardrum compared to a gas molecule.
My source is An Introduction to Hearing by David M. Green, 1976. He points out that the sensitivity of the ear to sinusoids around 3,000 Hz, where our ear is most sensitive, cannot be compared directly to thermal noise because the noise and signal quantities have different dimensions. Making a few assumptions, he arrives at an estimate of about three orders of magnitude between what we can detect as a pure tone and the energy in thermal movements of air molecules. However, children hear better, and David Green points out that cats are known to have about 10 to 20 dB better sensitivity than man over most of the audible range, and that other animals may have even better hearing.
Barometric pressure changes can be considered sound of very low frequency (and long wave-length). It has been speculated that birds, for example, might be able to detect such changes, which might aid navigation. One source said that you should be able to hear surf crashing at great distances if you were up in the air and able to hear low low frequencies.
Certainly some people will be more sensitive than others, perhaps practice helps, but I don't know much about that.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 19, 2010 - 12:30am PT
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Jan- "Perhaps there is a moral here?"
I believe so. Excellent point!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 19, 2010 - 12:45am PT
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Barometric pressure changes can be considered sound of very low frequency (and long wave-length)
Interesting as it seems the common denominator here is wave lengths and their relation to sound. It makes sense that a small island would enable a sensitive to experience these in a way that would never happen if living in the center of a continent. Okinawa in particular has the property of being just on the edge of the Asian monsoonal system where air pressure fluctuates frequently and dramatically. We're also in what is known as typhoon alley and on the ring of fire. I recently read that the greatest discharges of electro-magnetic energy occur during lightning, earthquakes and typhoons.
It also indicates that the source for sensing disparate things like air pressure and sound could be one particular place in the brain. The increased electromagnetic energy is another story.
There are several interesting physical phenomena which Japanese scientists have investigated relating to legends in Japanese culture about predicting earthquakes. One is called being warned by Buddha's light as people report that the candle flames on their altars turn blue and dip toward the floor shortly before a large quake. Japanese scientists have been able to verify in special chambers, that under the electro-magnetic conditions of an earthquake, a candle flame will indeed turn blue and bend downward. It is also known in China that animals act in a certain way before earthquakes and they have been able to predict quite a few ahead of time based on strange animal behavior which would make sense if their senses are much more acute than ours.
If nothing else, shamans and yogis were keen observers of nature, and perhaps they were genetically predisposed to do so.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 19, 2010 - 12:49am PT
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"What if your instruments are not capable of finding God? Then what? How would you know? We didn't prove the atom for a very long time. What if we simply don't have the instruments capable of seeing God?"
John, I replied to this question a few days ago. The burden of showing god exists is borne by those who believe such exists. Of course you can just skip this verification if you don't mind believing in something that does not in fact exist. You have the freedom to do this, provided we all can keep church and state separate. Mixing church and state threatens us all. Only those who plan to put everyone else under their heel are not threatened.
Those who are interested in understanding the material world are really unconcerned about gods who have never changed anything in the material world. If and when there is data suggesting a god has had an effect in the material world, science will be all over the question in short order. You may count on it.
Questions on this thread are showing over and over that we are listening only to the answers we wish to hear.
Here is the answer I want to hear. I want to hear that believers are standing up in church or in talking with their peers asking if what we are actually DOING follows the teachings of christ. Not the bible. Are we supporting people who treat others in ways they would not wish themselves to be treated? That rule was there even at the start of the Aramaic period.
I think Jennie gave such an answer a few days ago. Wonderful!
As to Bertrand Russell, read what I wrote. I said, "To the extent this is true".
IF churches do not follow the teachings of christ, and we define a christian as one who follows christ, then most church goers are not christian. If Russell is wrong then the conclusion is wrong.
Edit:
OK Werner, Let's see your data.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 19, 2010 - 12:57am PT
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"The burden of showing god exists is borne by those who believe such exists."
False!!!
Lazy aas people who don't want to do any work deserve bewilderment and blind alleys.
So, .... get to work and find God. Not very hard to do ......
God is NOT a prostitute.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 19, 2010 - 02:40am PT
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No one can find god, because god is only a metaphor for resolving the mystery of being. Doubtless Ardi's understanding of existence differed little from the average christian in contemporary life.
You want to find answers then turn to science; all the rest is smug bullsh#t designed to make you feel cozy in the midst of bewilderment.
All religious symbols describe the human psyche and fulfill its needs, they prepare you for the inevitable end in which every religious metaphor's truth or falseness becomes absolutely irrelevant.
Unfortunately, making metaphorical symbols into historical truth has inhibited human progress in every corner of the world.
You should ask yourself why religious symbols throughout the world are so similar? It's because they are products of a human mind, psyche, psychology that stands alone before the mystery of existence terrified, whimpering and needy.
Get over it and strive to make the world a better place!
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jstan
climber
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Jan 19, 2010 - 03:38am PT
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I can't think of anything worse than
having the mystery of being
not being a mystery.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 19, 2010 - 03:45am PT
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That seems to be the heart of it, intolerance of unanswered questions (mysteries).
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jstan
climber
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Jan 19, 2010 - 03:58am PT
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If all questions are answered
we don't get to do anything!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 19, 2010 - 05:25am PT
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Or when one answer quenches all questions.
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Sparky
Trad climber
vagabon movin on
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Jan 19, 2010 - 01:52pm PT
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'Why should you want to know?
Don't you mind about the future.
Don't you try to think ahead.
Save tomorrow for tomorrow,
think about today instead.
Why should you want to know?
Why are you obsessed with fighting
times and fates you can't defy?
If you knew the path we're riding,
You'd understand it less than I.'
-Jesus Christ Superstar
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 19, 2010 - 03:07pm PT
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you all should read this opinion peace...
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/18/must-there-be-a-bottom-line/
Needless to say, not everyone will be pleased by this argument. Those strong religionists who believe that the overweening claims of science (or scientism) must be denounced daily will not be pleased by an argument that says nothing about redemption, salvation and sin, and gives full marks to science’s achievements. (Smith, a pupil of B.F. Skinner’s, has been a sympathetic and knowledgeable student of science for many years.) And those materialist atheists who see religion as the source of many of the world’s evils and all of its ignorance will not be pleased by an argument that finds an honorable place for religious beliefs and practices.
And some will be irritated by a book that does not take sides, but tells you what the sides are and how they make their (flawed) cases, and tells you, finally, that there needn’t be any sides at all. That’s what makes the book good.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 19, 2010 - 04:00pm PT
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I can't think of anything worse than
having the mystery of being
not being a mystery.
I don't remember that among Nightmares of Eminent Persons.
But you leave some room on what you mean by being.
"For example, what exactly Hegel's logic is has been shrouded in mystery for every Hegelian after Hegel himself (and some would say for every Hegelian including Hegel)."
I don't think we are in any danger of stasis as long as there is the mystery of making a living.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 19, 2010 - 04:14pm PT
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What's the point of anything if it's all about god?
Why would god need anything more than god?
Why would god need life?
What is the purpose of life to god?
Wouldn't the only possible "meaning" to life be about god and not us?
What's the 'point' of us if there is a god?
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MH2
climber
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Jan 19, 2010 - 04:39pm PT
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On the subject of unusual sensations, here is an example from the stranger shores of science. The Journal of Applied Physiology is a third-rate publication at best.
Maybe evolution could produce radio communication. The closest is electro-reception and transmission in eels or fish that live in muddy water. Sharks supposedly have great reception but no transmission, I think. One publication said that a shark could sense the current that would be produced by a D cell 1.5V battery if each terminal were connected to one end of the Alaska pipeline and the pipe was filled with sea water. Or some such.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 19, 2010 - 05:52pm PT
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G60hM1W_mk
Here's a pretty straightforward hearing test. My 47 year old ears can hear from 60hZ to 8khZ, no more, no less. Thanks a lot, Robert Fripp!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 19, 2010 - 07:35pm PT
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What's the 'point' of us if there is a god?
Relationship!
Why? What's the point? Why does god need us or a relationship with us?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 19, 2010 - 07:42pm PT
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And does any of the other 99.87% of the Earth's biomass have a soul?
Edit: fixed the percentage which was knott 98.7%...
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 19, 2010 - 07:45pm PT
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"Why? What's the point? Why does god need us or a relationship with us?"
Do you want to live alone forever? I bore myself, but live in doing and relations!
I feel great giving to our children and grandchildren!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 19, 2010 - 08:15pm PT
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Are you saying god created us simply because he was bored with himself?
I mean, do I look like an arcade game or random number generator?
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Jan 19, 2010 - 08:49pm PT
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Thanks for your post Ed. I guess I would say that we get confused because we don't have the information to tell the contexts - where science or religion is the appropriate tool - apart. There's some way that all those finite numbers blend to form infinity, but it's a tough nut to crack!
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 19, 2010 - 10:11pm PT
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healyje --" .. do I look like an arcade game or random number generator?"
Hahaha LOL
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 20, 2010 - 01:08am PT
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In this life God created everything with the end game of making us free living independent beings within the confines of time and space to be real persons able to realize who God is, and to show us His true Holy nature!
These are just my observations, as above! Also I think God had so much love to give He had to make us!
Proverbs 20:9, Who can say, “I have made my heart pure;
I am clean from my sin”?
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.2) By John MacArthur http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
John 6:37, All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Trust in the Name of the Lord Our God
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David.
Psalm 20, May the Lord answer you in the day of trouble!
May the name of the God of Jacob protect you!
2 May he send you help from the sanctuary
and give you support from Zion!
3 May he remember all your offerings
and regard with favor your burnt sacrifices! Selah
4 May he grant you your heart's desire
and fulfill all your plans!
5 May we shout for joy over your salvation,
and in the name of our God set up our banners!
May the Lord fulfill all your petitions!
6 Now I know that the Lord saves his anointed;
he will answer him from his holy heaven
with the saving might of his right hand.
7 Some trust in chariots and some in horses,
but we trust in the name of the Lord our God.
8 They collapse and fall,
but we rise and stand upright.
9 O Lord, save the king!
May he answer us when we call.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 20, 2010 - 01:48am PT
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Wow Gobee!
Those are two tremendously uplifting, and heartening videos/stories and paintings!!
They tell a true story of the struggle, and victory of our wonderful country and people. Where would we be without God.
Thanks for sharing.
EDIT: We have been blessed(not perfect)but truly blessed as a Nation under God.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 20, 2010 - 02:05am PT
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...able to realize who God is, and to show us His true Holy nature!
Doesn't this sound just a little strange? That a god would have to create something to realize who he is and what he's like?
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MH2
climber
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Jan 20, 2010 - 03:38am PT
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Might have to reclassify J.A.P. as a second-rate journal. Or at least admit I may have misjudged one study.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_auditory_effect
"Later, signal modulation was found to produce sounds or words that appeared to originate intracranially."
stranger than fiction
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MH2
climber
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Jan 20, 2010 - 04:13am PT
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from Ed's link
"her object in the book is to interrogate and critique the assumption informing the conversation in which these are the standard contentions"
This kind of language upsets me. Too complicated. I had a look and what I think the underneath-it-all deal is, is that people are not very familiar with non-transitive relationships.
The same issue was treated by the guy who won a Nobel Prize for demonstrating that there is no such thing as a perfect democracy.
There are many things you simply cannot rank unequivocally.
You may choose A over B, B over C, but still choose C over A.
So which is best? It depends on how you rank whatever properties A,B,and C have, and that may be clear in a pairwise choice, but not necessarily when trying to choose among 3 or more things.
So science and religion could have differing emotional, cultural, social, intellectual, utilitarian, or other appeal and if you don't want to choose just one basis on which to judge them, you aren't going to be able to say which is better overall.
But that is a side issue, anyway. We don't need to choose religion or science. We can enjoy parts of both. Or neither.
The real issue, not for me but for many, is pressure from religion. I think this is what Dr. F, jstan, and maybe some others are looking at.
Here is how A.C. Grayling says it:
"Where politeness once restrained non-religious folk from expressing their true feelings about religion, both politeness and restraint have been banished by the confrontational face that faith now turns to the modern world."
And he is a first-class optimist. And speaking about Britain. So the problem isn't just found in the U.S. Canada doesn't seem to have it so bad.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 20, 2010 - 08:47am PT
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Selective hearing is the way to go, or it's too much!
Music or noise?
We can grieve the Holy Spirit!
Whatever is pure holy and righteous think on these things...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 20, 2010 - 10:32pm PT
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MH2-
I just wanted to say thanks for all your interesting posts on the brain. They in turn have led me to a lot of other reading that I am still trying to digest.
In the process it strikes me that one of the next things to be done in spiritual research is to try to distinguish between physical phenomena (electrical and biochemical), genetic anomalies and potentials, as well as the outer boundaries of sense processing in the brain on the one hand, and other phenomena like precognition that seem to be based on something outside the brain. It strikes me that part of the confusion, is that we haven't even sorted out the physical brain aspects yet and they are getting confused with higher level phenomena.
If we're interested in this kind of research, we should all be making provisions to donate our brains to science after death along with notes about such experiences or the lack thereof, and exposure to drugs and electromagnetic energy.
I walk my dogs on military bases jam packed with various types of antenna, dishes, bowls etc. for receiving and transmitting, and the Navy has a station here that beams very low frequency sound out into the ocean. I've always wondered what the effect of all that might be, especially now, given your info on some people being able to "hear" microwave energy. Happily, although I'm around it, I've never had that phenomenon. I can however when listening to very high pitched music, Paganini's violin compositions being the best for this, feel the auditory part of my brain being stimulated. It doesn't quite tingle, but something like that, only more subtle. I've only noticed it the past few years so either my brain is getting more sensitive or perhaps deteriorating with age?!
One other odd phenomenon I wanted to mention which is much more sobering is that one night in the late '80's or early '90's while lying on the floor, back in the dayswhen I was heavily into meditation, a low but very powerful rumbling began which I could hear but more so feel that went on and on for 5-6 minutes. I knew instinctively that the only thing that it could be, compared to the earthquakes I had already felt, was an atomic explosion. I searched all the newspapers the next few weeks and nothing. I decided that if the Chinese had done an underground explosion, it would have been publicized critically by the U.S. and neither the U.S. nor Japan would do anything underground on the ring of fire. Therefore, it must have come from further off with the best guess being French Polynesia since sound travels best through water. Perhaps the Israelis have rented some of those atols?
Later I remarked on this to a group of military intel students during one of our class breaks to see what kind of a reaction I would get, and sure enough, one of the senior Navy NCO's got a stricken look on his face. Later he said to me, "I can verify that was no earthquake that you felt, but don't ask me anything else about it".
So who knows what all this stuff, most of which we're not even aware of, is doing to our mental and physical evolution?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 20, 2010 - 10:53pm PT
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-Love is the only thing that can be divided without being diminished.
TOP TEN PREDICTIONS FOR 2010
1. The Bible will still have all the answers.
2. Prayer will still work.
3. The Holy Spirit will still move.
4. God will still inhabit the praises of His people.
5. There will still be God-anointed preaching.
6. There will still be singing of praise to God.
7. God will still pour out blessings upon His people.
8. There will still be room at the Cross.
9. Jesus will still love you.
10. Jesus will still save the lost.
God whispers in your soul and speaks to your mind.
Sometimes when you don't have time to listen, He has to throw a
brick at you. It's your choice: Listen to the whisper, or wait for
the brick.
Proverbs 20:13, Whoever closes his ear to the cry of the poor
will himself call out and not be answered.
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.2) By John MacArthur http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
The King Rejoices in the Lord's Strength
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David.
Psalm 21, O Lord, in your strength the king rejoices,
and in your salvation how greatly he exults!
2 You have given him his heart's desire
and have not withheld the request of his lips. Selah
3 For you meet him with rich blessings;
you set a crown of fine gold upon his head.
4 He asked life of you; you gave it to him,
length of days forever and ever.
5 His glory is great through your salvation;
splendor and majesty you bestow on him.
6 For you make him most blessed forever;
you make him glad with the joy of your presence.
7 For the king trusts in the Lord,
and through the steadfast love of the Most High he shall not be moved.
8 Your hand will find out all your enemies;
your right hand will find out those who hate you.
9 You will make them as a blazing oven
when you appear.
The Lord will swallow them up in his wrath,
and fire will consume them.
10 You will destroy their descendants from the earth,
and their offspring from among the children of man.
11 Though they plan evil against you,
though they devise mischief, they will not succeed.
12 For you will put them to flight;
you will aim at their faces with your bows.
13 Be exalted, O Lord, in your strength!
We will sing and praise your power.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 21, 2010 - 01:01am PT
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In the process it strikes me that one of the next things to be done in spiritual research is to try to distinguish between physical phenomena (electrical and biochemical), genetic anomalies and potentials, as well as the outer boundaries of sense processing in the brain on the one hand, and other phenomena like precognition that seem to be based on something outside the brain. It strikes me that part of the confusion, is that we haven't even sorted out the physical brain aspects yet and they are getting confused with higher level phenomena.
Pretty much assuming the sale on precognition and "other [esp] phenomena". Doesn't seem like a very objective approach.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 21, 2010 - 02:04am PT
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weschrist- "existence is only known through interactions"
"Interaction is a kind of action that occurs as two or more objects have an effect upon one another." Wikipedia!
Gobee- "Sometimes when you don't have time to listen, He has to through a brick at you."
Just say-in, might wanna start wearing your hardhat...could be a brick coming!
BTW, I got alot of lumps on the back of my hard head.
But all joking aside, He does want to interact with you...if you ask Him.
"You didn't choose Me! I chose you!" John 15:16.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 21, 2010 - 02:18am PT
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healeyje-
I already talked about this upthread and the fact that I have experienced precognition even though the latest from the physicists is that it doesn't exist. So I don't claim to be objective. If I have anything to offer it is my subjective experience and my cross cultural knowledge. And I'm donating my brain to science when I'm done - along with copious notes. That's all.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 21, 2010 - 04:18am PT
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TOP TEN PREDICTIONS FOR 2010
Damn! No reference whatsoever to the Dow Jones.
Will the Bible ever have any new answers, Gobee? Or is a book from 2,000 years ago all we will ever need?
My primary question is: if I want to find something out who do I ask, or where do I go to look, or could I figure it out myself?
Following a thread of this sort is helpful, to me, because posters raise questions and occasionally post information that I wouldn't come across otherwise. I'm not looking to settle anyone's hash, I just want to hear interesting stuff. There are questions I would go to Karl for the answer, others to Jan, etc. A lot of knowledge falls outside the well-founded constructions of science (and a lot that is mistaken for science is not well-founded).
One day, perhaps today, the speed and breadth of the internet will allow groups of people to work on tough questions with better result than the Ouija board dynamics we see here. Yes, math and physics and other groups do it now, by communicating quickly over great distances with many participants, but non-human elements may become increasingly important. I notice that content-addressable-memories are now used in routers, that Google uses a Markovian operator of some kind to rank web pages, the Viterbi algorithm has current uses, and Teuvo Kohonen's self-forming feature maps are alive and well and have offspring, although military cloaking veils the specifics. If the internet itself did develop a consciousness we of course would possibly be no more aware of its structure, activities, or purposes than a cell within our body is of ours.
In the meantime we have a version of David Marr's Mountain Climbing in a Probabilistic Landscape, simulated annealing, and ant colony optimization to try, among other approaches to finding optima, or minima if you prefer. Some of our participants appear stuck in local minima, Gobee.
Others seem impatient with our rate of cooling.
We also don't have a lot of ants.
And scaling up to larger numbers of participants looks nightmarish.
And we probably won't get anywhere interesting to the group, other than in the trivial sense that the process has produced intermmediate results.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 21, 2010 - 08:10am PT
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"Perfection is attained not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away!" St-Exupery
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever." Hebrews 13:8
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths." 2 Timothy 4:3
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Jan 21, 2010 - 08:23am PT
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edit to delete derogatory prose.
sorry christians. i eat those words.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 21, 2010 - 11:57am PT
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Potpourri:
Jan's senses:
Detectivities vary widely between individuals and between specie for every stimulus. In an erect
posture humans have to maintain balance using signals from our semicircular canals and it is a
very noisy servo-control problem. In a standing position small earth disturbances are buried in
that servo noise. For some years here in SB I slept on the floor, a slab. I could tell the difference
between s-waves and p-waves and could even get a directional fix on an earthquake.
Snakes:
I presumed we developed a specie aversion to snakes as tree shrews because at that stage we
would have made a meal for a snake small enough to be an effective tree climber.
MH2: The future
Everyone can foretell the future and no one can foretell the future. I'll try a little here.
For a good 15 years, as I watched the decay of our public education and our decreasing exports,
I have been persuaded the US is on track to become a neo third world state. But I did not quite
see how it would all work. This seems a little clearer now. As I have said recently, I think religion
and politics in this country are now melded together and this spells the end of effective public
governance. Religion is antithetical to compromise and compromise is the only known way to
avoid violence and disorder among our specie. Special interests have gained control and will, in
all cases, work to benefit themselves. To the citizen on the street this will assume the form of
pervasive corruption.
The lives we all have enjoyed for the last twenty years came about because, as I have before
alluded, eighty cents out of every dollar saved in the world has been coming to the US. Right
now reports indicate continued strong sovereign nation purchases of US debt but there are also
reports of investments now leaving the US in substantial amounts. Americans investing abroad.
This is what would be expected if it is believed the dollar will not fare well and if it is expected
that increasing corruption will be a fact of life in the US. Standards of living will continue sinking
back toward the world average and dissatisfaction and stress among the people here will further
hamper any attempt toward good public governance. This will be especially severe for so long as
americans continue to believe, without basis, we are " superior beings."
This is the reason I was extremely distressed to see the US's attempt to indebt our way out of the
2008 collapse of the US financial system, which had gone with adequate control since Reagan's
regime. Besides actually increasing the total pain ultimately to be endured it also removed our
last good chance for us all to learn there are consequences and to see once again that
compromise is less painful than is rigidity.
So now the task for each of us is to seek our own path through this that features something like 80%
confidence of an acceptable result.
It was a minor event but in the 1970's I had great good fortune and the chance to see a great
people, technical rock climbers, face a problem squarely and work together to make a future. On
a much larger scale this is exactly what is needed today, but it will not happen.
As a people
we are now too small.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jan 21, 2010 - 12:03pm PT
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"Prayer will still work."
Not for the mothers and fathers that lost children in Haiti.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 21, 2010 - 12:59pm PT
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I can however when listening to very high pitched music, Paganini's violin compositions being the best for this, feel the auditory part of my brain being stimulated.
Well, no mystery there. Paganini was well-known to have made a deal with the devil, so the fact that you hear things in his music that others can not hear is a clear indication that you must be a witch!
Extrapolate from that and pretty soon all the precognition falls into place (seeds planted by Satan, of course), likewise your ability to set off nuclear explosions from afar, and...
If the Christians ever find out about this, you're going to find yourself tied to a stake and watching them pile faggots about your feet.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 21, 2010 - 01:04pm PT
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Yes rectorsquid, prayer will still work for those who have lost family in Haiti.
And therein lies the fundamental insanity of the whole Christian religion (and probably others as well).
God is all powerful, present everywhere, and all-knowing. Capable of creating and running the entire universe. And when he runs it in such fashion that a hundred thousand die in an earthquake you say the survivors should take comfort in his love for them.
That is so sick it's disgusting.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 21, 2010 - 01:56pm PT
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weschrist- "Narrow mind..."
"Wide is the path to destruction."
~777~
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 21, 2010 - 02:05pm PT
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weschrist- "Early on he said, you are capable of handling this one on your own, you don't need fairy tales anymore..."
Yea, that' one of Satan's trademark lies! Don't be a fool!
~777~
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Jan 21, 2010 - 02:09pm PT
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Before Copernicus, Galileo, Darwin, etc. the christians didn't have a problem. Every christian could agree on a strict literal interpretation of the bible.
But with every discovery, christians had to choose to either dig in their heels or constantly back-pedal on biblical meanings.
You christians either cling with blind and wilful ignorance to the belief that your oh so personal god just shazammed! everything--as is--into existence, or you believe in a distant god that has become, and with each new discovery will continue to become, less and less relevant to day to day life, until it is no god at all.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 21, 2010 - 04:05pm PT
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Pray for old Norton, for he cannot pray for himself, the worthless PAGAN.
In bed with heating pad and oxycodone.
I am SO sick and tired of my spine falling apart and fuking hurting.
Just looking for some sympathy.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 21, 2010 - 04:47pm PT
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someone cares!
Thanks, Wes
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 21, 2010 - 04:50pm PT
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Norton- "Pray for old Norton."
Will do!
I know how you feel. I have a herniated disk with two bulges at L5-S1. Last Tuesday I got a steroid injection. It helps, but they can only do it every three months. I've been to hell and back. They tell me that I have degenerative disk disease, and don't want to do surgery. Although the neurosurgeon says I need two rods with a fusion. Physical therapy has helped. Especially the back extension exercises.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 21, 2010 - 09:16pm PT
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When there is nothing left but God,
that is when you find out that God is all you need!
Proverbs 22:1-2, A good name is to be chosen rather than great riches,
and favor is better than silver or gold.
The rich and the poor meet together;
the Lord is the maker of them all.
Proverbs 22:6, Train up a child in the way he should go;
even when he is old he will not depart from it.
Proverbs 22:17-19, Incline your ear, and hear the words of the wise,
and apply your heart to my knowledge,
for it will be pleasant if you keep them within you,
if all of them are ready on your lips.
That your trust may be in the Lord,
I have made them known to you today, even to you.
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.2) By John MacArthur http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
Matthew 16:15-19, He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Psalm 22:26-31 The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied;
those who seek him shall praise the Lord!
May your hearts live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth shall remember
and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
shall worship before you.
28 For kingship belongs to the Lord,
and he rules over the nations.
29 All the prosperous of the earth eat and worship;
before him shall bow all who go down to the dust,
even the one who could not keep himself alive.
30 Posterity shall serve him;
it shall be told of the Lord to the coming generation;
31 they shall come and proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn,
that he has done it.
Hope you feel better Norton!
Edit; U 2 TripL7!
John MacArthur just had back surgery and it went well but he needs to lay low for three weeks!
Thru the Bible - Dr. J. Vernon McGee
Hosea Intro
Thursday, January 21, 2010
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/thru_the_bible_with_jvernon_mcgee/Archives.asp
Great message!!!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 21, 2010 - 09:20pm PT
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So I'm in India for the next few months. Avoiding the Yosemite snow while rehabbing my ankle but mostly doing spiritual retreat.
Funny, there hardly seems to be a debate in India about God or no God. Everybody seems to believe in God, no matter how poor and miserable they are. Many don't pay any attention to God or give a crap about God, but they don't worry about if there is a God or if God exists or if he is "fair"
People worship and connect with God in vastly different ways here, from Meditation to prayer to idol worship and on and on. Few seem very concerned that the others are "going to hell" and accept we all have our own paths. THere is Muslim-Hindu tension and sometime violence but that's an "apple-Oranges" kinda thing. The Hindus don't mind the Muslims doing their religion but I think Hinduism offends Islam and there is that history going on too.
Seemingly miraculous coincidences happen everyday here. It's weird but reality is slightly different wherever you go if you pay attention. It's the sum total of the awareness of the people who live in a place that make the vibes and affect the way things happen.
Neigh-sayers on this thread keep pointing to the lack of an ideal world we live on here and say that justifies the non-existence of God. It's like Children saying there's no God and their parents are tyrants because they don't serve candy as the main course with dinner. All from people who choose a dangerous and painful sport to do for fun.
Our perspective is just too limited on this planet to see or judge the big picture.
Peace
Karl
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Marc Sisko
Trad climber
SE Warsh
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Jan 21, 2010 - 09:27pm PT
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This thing is still going on...I still maintain that an honest inquiry vindicates Christianity...especially powerful are the current testimonies of ex-new agers and inner space voyagers like Randall Baer and Tal Brooke and ex-Muslims like Mark Gabriel
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roadman
climber
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Jan 21, 2010 - 11:14pm PT
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dude norton! I'm sorry you're hurtin. Darwin sends his best too....
Funny story, I was livin in the ditch and had NO money. But I had the worst tires like so so bad falling off the rims. I get a lead on a guy in modesto who's supposed to have cheap good tires that just might have fallen off the back of a truck....
So I roll down in some lovely 98 degree summer heat and find the shop. I'm sweating my ass off hoping to get a good deal and I do, but the best thing was the guy who worked there. He was a real badass looking dude. Long hair Hispanic, BIG. He was wearing a blue coveralls and I didn't really look to close at the name tag till the end. As I was shoving my my few measly dollars into his hand I noticed his name tag.... Darwin!
Those who know the truth are out there. My wife and I actively brainwash youngins daily.
Cheers!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 21, 2010 - 11:17pm PT
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Rokjox!
I have had a long history of back problems! In 01' I fell at work and messed up my left knee and collapsed the disk at L5-S1. WC did the surgery on my knee, but they ended up winning a court case regarding my back. All on the basis that I had been seeing the Docs at Kaiser for minor back pain. In a ten year period I had 2-3 flair ups. No big deal, but I was hopping to get therapy and possibly some steroid injections. Then I took a bad fall at work and realy blew it out. I worked for a Dr. at the time. Very powerful one in LA. I went to the best W.Comp. attorney's in LA. When I told them who I worked for they told me to forget it. Long story. But I got zilch for my back. They did the surgery on the L/Knee and are going to cover the total knee replacement that I need(the initial knee surgery was a failure)but my back is shot. I am not covered. Plain and simple. I can get Medicare coverage, but the one Doc I spoke to told me to forget it. He said, and this is a direct quote "We get 15% on the dollar" his expression was "do you think we are nuts?".
So they tell me I have degenerative disc disease!! I realy don't dwell on it much. The Injections once every three months help...for a few weeks. I don't know how age factors in, I am 60!! Like Gobee just said the pastor John MacArthur just had surgery. He is about 60-65 I would imagine.
What it boils down to is insurance. And I am sh#t out of luck!!
Peace.
PS How is your back doing?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 21, 2010 - 11:46pm PT
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roadman!
But I have peace!
I am truly happier than I have ever been in my whole life, full of joy! Ad especialy peace.
How about you? And your gangster buddy, darwin? Does he have peace?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 22, 2010 - 01:04am PT
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Norton-
So sorry to hear about your back trouble!
Obviously, Homo sapiens has not yet perfected upright walking!
Meanwhile, many thanks for starting this thread which has provided myself and obviously many others, with so many hours of amusement - so much to think about, chuckle at, get incensed about, and reconsider.
Obviously from the 5,000 plus posts now, there were a lot of smart people eager to exchange ideas and you provided the platform.
Hope you feel better soon.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 22, 2010 - 01:16am PT
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Hang in there, Norton. We will need you for the new season.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 22, 2010 - 01:24am PT
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MH2!
Lots of laughs!! Hahaha!
Right on Charlie Brown.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 22, 2010 - 02:05am PT
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Karl-
I envy you being in India! There are so many things I love about South Asia, but most of all, I also love the way it forces me to be a different person and see things from an entirely different perspective.
And of course every day there is an adventure, especially if you're traveling. You never know what is around the next corner - a team of street acrobats, a group of beggers, an elephant decked out in make up and jewelry, a group of orange robed holy men, giggling school girls in British uniforms, a couple of computer programmers, a troop of langur monkeys pursued by irate people who have just been robbed of their bags and sun glasses, cows fornicating away and causing a traffic jam, street vendors cooking spicy snacks, and always and everywhere super friendly people dressed in clothes of bright and cheerful colors.
Have fun, be inspired, enjoy the variety, and come back to the bland world of the West with everything in perspective!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jan 22, 2010 - 02:29am PT
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""Wide is the path to destruction."
21, (3x7),
that should be "Wyde is the path to enlightenment"
"Thug Darwin"? Trippy, you could, grow from a reading of the book of Darwin.
Too apt Mh2!
All Power to Jan and Karl.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 22, 2010 - 02:35am PT
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jstan-
For some years here in SB I slept on the floor, a slab. I could tell the difference
between s-waves and p-waves and could even get a directional fix on an earthquake.
Glad to hear at least two of us can feel earthquakes at least. Suddenly it occurred to me that many things we think we discover as a result of meditation may not be anything new but rather, the rediscovery of abilities we had in the distant past which were lost due to the increasing "noise" in our life at all levels. The meditation literature often talks about rediscovering our true self. Part of that may well be, just rediscovering some of our senses which we've suppressed.
I presumed we developed a specie aversion to snakes as tree shrews because at that stage we would have made a meal for a snake small enough to be an effective tree climber.
It could go back that far and have been reinforced through many later stages also since there are boas that can kill people, let alone monkeys and apes.
Along these lines, one of the explanations some have given for memories of past lives and theories of reincarnation is that they are a kind of genetic memory of things that have happened to other people. I laughed at Ghost telling me I would have been declared a witch in a past life what with all my weird experiences, as I have always felt I was persecuted by Christians in a past life to have some of the feelings I do.
On the other hand, I can document with genealogical research that plenty of my ancestors did, so perhaps I only inherited their memories - everything from Quakers persecuted by English Protestants and Amerian Puritans to the Catharis, vegetarians who believed in reincarnation, who were killed by the tens of thousands in the south of France by the Catholic church.
Meanwhile, one can certainly ponder modern intelligence and the limits of technology as we watch our own society thrash around, seemingly unable to govern itself anymore.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 22, 2010 - 11:02am PT
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Jan wrote
There are so many things I love about South Asia, but most of all, I also love the way it forces me to be a different person and see things from an entirely different perspective.
And of course every day there is an adventure, especially if you're traveling. You never know what is around the next corner - a team of street acrobats, a group of beggers, an elephant decked out in make up and jewelry, a group of orange robed holy men, giggling school girls in British uniforms, a couple of computer programmers, a troop of langur monkeys pursued by irate people who have just been robbed of their bags and sun glasses, cows fornicating away and causing a traffic jam, street vendors cooking spicy snacks, and always and everywhere super friendly people dressed in clothes of bright and cheerful colors.
That's just such a perfect description of the joys (and sometimes hells) of India. You get to step out of knowing what to expect (although at least now I know to expect any of those things you wrote)
Just had dinner with somebody whose mind was just a little too bent from the craziness that comes from not having much idea what's really going on and what to trust. I hope I helped!
Peace
Karl
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jstan
climber
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Jan 22, 2010 - 02:27pm PT
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Life can be pretty ironic. If you would try to name a country whose political life most resembles that of the US
it would be Iraq.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 22, 2010 - 08:36pm PT
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Proverbs 23:17, Let not your heart envy sinners,
but continue in the fear of the Lord all the day.
Proverbs 23:18 Surely there is a future,
and your hope will not be cut off
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.2) By John MacArthur http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
Proverbs 23:19, Hear, my son, and be wise,
and direct your heart in the way.
A Psalm of David
Psalm 23, The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2 He makes me lie down in green pastures.
He leads me beside still waters.
3 He restores my soul.
He leads me in.
4 Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.
5 You prepare a table before me
in the presence of my enemies;
you anoint my head with oil;
my cup overflows.
6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me
all the days of my life,
and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 22, 2010 - 08:39pm PT
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Jaybro- "Thug Darwin"
I was referring to roadman's 'friend' whose name is also Darwin! I had presumed that he was connected some way "wit da thug life". Tires(nor anything else of value)don't just fall off the back of trucks!
I have read "Origin of Species" and other excerpts from his life. Like I said, this had nothing to do with Charles D.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 22, 2010 - 08:58pm PT
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roadman
climber
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Jan 22, 2010 - 09:00pm PT
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roadman
climber
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Jan 22, 2010 - 09:05pm PT
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roadman!
But I have peace!
I am truly happier than I have ever been in my whole life, full of joy! Ad especialy peace.
How about you? And your gangster buddy, darwin? Does he have peace?
You talkin' to me?
Dude, don't even think about Peace so long as religion's in town. You people know nothing about peace.
I have a piece...yes I do. Darwin, I'm sure he had a piece too!
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roadman
climber
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Jan 22, 2010 - 09:15pm PT
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roadman
climber
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Jan 22, 2010 - 09:17pm PT
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roadman
climber
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Jan 22, 2010 - 09:21pm PT
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Jan 22, 2010 - 10:01pm PT
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When a christian says or does something terrible based on his beliefs everyone says, "he's not a real christian, that's not what christianity is about."
When a muslim says or does something terrible based on his beliefs everyone says, "typical muslim, that's what islam is all about."
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roadman
climber
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Jan 22, 2010 - 10:46pm PT
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"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution"
Theodosius Dobzhansky.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 22, 2010 - 10:52pm PT
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 22, 2010 - 10:53pm PT
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roadman!
"And you will be hated by all because of My name." Luke 21:17
I love witnessing prophesy being fulfilled...Praise the name of JESUS!!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 22, 2010 - 11:00pm PT
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Dr.F- "Denial is a fools folly"
Who's the fool?
"The fool has said in his heart'There is no God!"
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 22, 2010 - 11:03pm PT
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777???
No one hates you because of your imaginary friend.
Really.
There are so-called Christians who are most certainly hateful, but you don't seem to be one of them, really.
You're just mildly annoying.
"Have a nice eternity" and all that.
Thanks, I'm sure I will.
"We are all made of stars."
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jan 22, 2010 - 11:05pm PT
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Does it annoy you when someone says "God bless you" after you sneeze?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 22, 2010 - 11:08pm PT
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Not really. It's just a colloquialism, after all.
"Godspeed" on the other hand, is a little creepy, for no particular reason.
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roadman
climber
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Jan 22, 2010 - 11:16pm PT
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Does it annoy you when someone says "God bless you" after you sneeze?
YES so cut it the F out OK! baaaaaa bhaaaa...
oh yeah, t?? 7 dude, what up? You got issues and stuff.... like change the channel from the billy gram sh#t to HGTV and get in touch with your calm self... Better yet, netflix the big libowski and smoke a fattie!
Roadman out
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 22, 2010 - 11:20pm PT
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cintune!
Actually I regretted saying that and I deleted it.
Sorry, didn't mean to annoy you!
I guess we all get kind of frustrated with each other every so often.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 22, 2010 - 11:23pm PT
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roadman- "The Big Lebowski"
Jeff Bridges Rules!!
Kool flick!
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roadman
climber
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Jan 22, 2010 - 11:23pm PT
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roadman
climber
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Jan 22, 2010 - 11:25pm PT
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roadman- "The Big Lebowski"
Jeff Bridges Rules!!
Kool flick!
What;s the new flick he's in?? I want to see it, hear he's awesome in it.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jan 22, 2010 - 11:26pm PT
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The "God bless you" sneeze salutation doesn't bug me either, but what if it bugs God?
Maybe He's busy doing something else.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 22, 2010 - 11:30pm PT
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Yeah, it would suck to be constantly interrupted like that.
But he's figured out how to filter all those prayers that don't get answered, so it's probably no biggie.
And Locker, you're right about that.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 22, 2010 - 11:34pm PT
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roadman!
"Crazy Heart"
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 22, 2010 - 11:49pm PT
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Whoah.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 23, 2010 - 12:58am PT
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The ultimate question for all believers, especially christians, is what did god have in mind for Haiti?
I guess all those little kids, babies and such, must have had some nasty karma... huh? Must've been the original sin of Adam that killed and injured all those babies, right?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 23, 2010 - 01:02am PT
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paul!
FWIW the children are with Jesus...
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 23, 2010 - 01:04am PT
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Yeah, isn't that just swell.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 23, 2010 - 02:26am PT
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You Atheist realy flabbergast me with your deliberate chides and accusations against a God that according to YOU doesn't even exist!!
What do you give a damn what we believe? For all the people reading this that lost loved ones, especially little children, kids babies, yes they are in heaven with the Lord. I hurt, Jesus hurts...all Christians hurt.
But you Atheist, what do you give a damn?????
According to you, they are just dust, gone. Survival of the fittest. So what.
All you can do is come on here and curse Christians!!! Insult us...insult our God!! Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
WHY???
HATRED...HATE!!!
"And you will be hated by all because of My name." Luke 21:17
~777~
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Jan 23, 2010 - 02:33am PT
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Hellooooo! dumbass,
y o u
a r e
on
a
t h r e a d
t i t l e d :
"Creationists Take Another Called Strike - and run to dugout"
You seem to require a sense of victimhood.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 23, 2010 - 02:41am PT
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WandaFuca!
When you come face to face with your Maker, you'll remember this thread!
But there won't be any dug-out to run to!!
"Every Knee shall bow, every tongue confess, Jesus Christ as Lord!"
EDIT: "There will be earthquakes in various places...all these are the beginning of sorrows." Matthew 24:7-8.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Jan 23, 2010 - 02:51am PT
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When you come face to face with your Maker, you'll remember this thread!
But there won't be any dug-out to run to!!
Classic! ROTFLMFAO!!!
Magical thinking combined with a victim mentality -- I don't hate you (a combination of pity and annoyance is more like it) -- you say you've studied science, but I wonder at what path could have brought you to such delusional thought processes.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 23, 2010 - 03:12am PT
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jstan:
In an erect posture humans have to maintain balance using signals from our semicircular canals and it is a very noisy servo-control problem. In a standing position small earth disturbances are buried in that servo noise. For some years here in SB I slept on the floor, a slab. I could tell the difference between s-waves and p-waves and could even get a directional fix on an earthquake.
The semicircular canals do a mechanical integration of angular accelerations of the head. The three nearly orthogonal canals can uniquely decipher a head rotation around any axis. The brain does a second integration to get head position. The main output is to the eye muscles and the goal is to stabilize gaze when the head is moving. Otherwise things would look pretty blurry when we run. The vestibular nuclei in the brainstem also project to the spinal cord and do contribute to keeping us from falling down more than we do. Tendon receptors and other proprioceptors outside the inner ear are more important, though. People who have had resection of the vestibular part of the VIIIth nerve, maybe for a neuroma, can still stand upright and walk pretty well.
Vision is important for balance. Stand on one leg. Hold the other foot behind you with both hands. See how long before you tip. Should take a long time. Now do the same but with your eyes closed. Not nearly as stable even though your vestibular system is still doing its best. Vision is slow, though, compared to the vestibulo-ocular 3-neuron reflex arc. A sensory fiber from the canal to a brainstem nucleus, an interneuron sending an axon to eye motoneurons, and the motoneurons stimulate the muscles that move the eye.
Very important when driving a car. Isn't it wonderful how time our ancestors spent in trees or on the savannas selected for an ability to hurtle past each other in several thousand pounds of metal no more than a few feet apart? Of course, the internal combustion engine is going to kill us, but it isn't in any hurry. Softening us up a little, first.
Anyway, just want to clarify: What noise are you talking about? Do you mean that the system going about its business is noise when you are trying to sense an earthquake, Or do you mean noise in the sense of random data?
The vestibular system also shows us that we live in 3-space, approximately. It wasn't possible to find a picture nearly as pretty as those the old anatomists took of the fluid-filled membranous labyrinth after they had chipped away the bone, but this is okay:
http://newsroom.ucr.edu/images/releases/1614_1hi.jpg
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tacoflavoredkisses
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe
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Jan 23, 2010 - 08:24am PT
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First of all, congratulations on your beautiful baseball analogy, which is so enlightening, and nay I say poetic(Watch out Mr. Kahn). So, with this thread you hoped to accomplish what? Did you want to share with the world that you thrive on belittling others? You perhaps wanted to communicate to all of your peers that you don't have a soul? How can you look upon a beautiful vista, or 5star route and explain that lovin' feeling you get with science alone? You don't have to believe in a jewish zombie(easter), to believe that there is a higher power beyond our comprehension. Creationists can easily include evolution into their theory, but you obviously can't accept a higher power into your belief system, congratulations again on your narrow mindedness. How bout you shut the fu&k up, and respect your fellow man(golden rule), because the only way you'll learn if you're right or wrong is when it's too late to make amends. If you haven't heard...YOU'RE GONNA DIE. And with that I'll leave you with the timeless wisdom of the band Blood, Sweat,& Tears: ...swear there ain't no heaven, and I pray there ain't no hell, but I'll never know by livin' only my dyin' will tell...
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 23, 2010 - 03:26pm PT
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Wanda- "You say you studied science...but at what path have brought you to such delusional thought processes?"
Yes, I have a BS degree(Occupational Therapy) and well on my towards a MS degree in Psych! And could have easily continued on to a PhD. in Clinical Psych. if I had desired.
But I came to know that Jesus Christ is God at 8 yrs old. When I cried out to him under very dire circumstances(about to be murdered). I would have been DEAD. But He intervened!
Unfortunately you will be DEAD when you reach the same conclusion Wanda! And in the meantime you attempt to spew hatred for any belief in a Higher power! Your CHOICE!!
Pity, is that in your Atheist vocabulary? How could there be pity on something that is a by product of natural selection? What is pity Wanda? When did the ape-man acquire such a BENEVOLENT feature as pity, or LOVE? Doesn't that require a conscience? Where along the line did your ape develope a conscious outside of survival? Pure B.S. and that does not require a degree!
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Jan 23, 2010 - 03:48pm PT
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The universe doesn't revolve around you, the universe doesn't revolve around this planet, the universe doesn't even revolve around this galaxy nor the local group of galaxies it resides in.
The universe and all that happens within it does not require a god. It is only your mind and personality that require that there be a god.
Lucky you to avoid being murdered, now work on the hysterical victim problem.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 23, 2010 - 03:56pm PT
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WandaFuca- "ROTFALMFAO"
You can roll on the floor and laugh your rather abundant azz off all your tiny heart desires Wanda, BUT, there ain't gonna be any laughing where your sorry butt is headed!!
"There will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth!"
I truly do have pity on you.
Here is another word that I doubt is in your Atheistic Gospel(since we are on the topic)REPENT...before it is to late!!!
EDIT: I don't enjoy 'preaching' these beliefs, they are what Jesus stated and preached! It would be much easier to avoid the topic of Hell, but hen I would be a sellout, or a liar...something that Jesus certainly was not. I do it out of love Wanda, some day you will understand!
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Jan 23, 2010 - 04:20pm PT
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Here's a Jonathan Edwards sermon about a "wrathful god" that's right up your alley 777
Enjoy!
----------------------------------------------------------------
There is nothing that keeps wicked men, at any one moment, out of hell, but the mere pleasure of God.
By "the mere pleasure of God," I mean his sovereign pleasure, his arbitrary will, restrained by no obligation, hindered by no manner of difficulty, any more than if nothing else but God's mere will had in the least degree, or in any respect whatsoever, any hand in the preservation of wicked men one moment.
The truth of this observation may appear by the following considerations.
I. There is no want of power in God to cast wicked men into hell at any moment. Men's hands can't be strong when God rises up: the strongest have no power to resist him, nor can any deliver out of his hands.
He is not only able to cast wicked men into hell, but he can most easily do it. Sometimes an earthly prince meets with a great deal of difficulty to subdue a rebel, that has found means to fortify himself, and has made himself strong by the numbers of his followers. But it is not so with God. There is no fortress that is any defense from the power of God. Though hand join in hand, and vast multitudes of God's enemies combine and associate themselves, they are easily broken in pieces: they are as great heaps of light chaff before the whirlwind; or large quantities of dry stubble before devouring flames. We find it easy to tread on and crush a worm that we see crawling on the earth; so 'tis easy for us to cut or singe a slender thread that anything hangs by; thus easy is it for God when he pleases to cast his enemies down to hell. What are we, that we should think to stand before him, at whose rebuke the earth trembles, and before whom the rocks are thrown down?
II. They deserve to be cast into hell; so that divine justice never stands in the way, it makes no objection against God's using his power at any moment to destroy them. Yea, on the contrary, justice calls aloud for an infinite
406 --
punishment of their sins. Divine justice says of the tree that brings forth such grapes of Sodom, "Cut it down; why cumbreth it the ground" (Luke 13:7). The sword of divine justice is every moment brandished over their heads, and 'tis nothing but the hand of arbitrary mercy, and God's mere will, that holds it back.
III. They are already under a sentence of condemnation to hell. They don't only justly deserve to be cast down thither; but the sentence of the law of God, that eternal and immutable rule of righteousness that God has fixed between him and mankind, is gone out against them, and stands against them; so that they are bound over already to hell. John 3:18, "He that believeth not is condemned already." So that every unconverted man properly belongs to hell; that is his place; from thence he is. John 8:23, "Ye are from beneath." And thither he is bound; 'tis the place that justice, and God's Word, and the sentence of his unchangeable law assigns to him.
IV. They are now the objects of that very same anger and wrath of God that is expressed in the torments of hell: and the reason why they don't go down to hell at each moment, is not because God, in whose power they are, is not then very angry with them; as angry as he is with many of those miserable creatures that he is now tormenting in hell, and do there feel and bear the fierceness of his wrath. Yea, God is a great deal more angry with great numbers that are now on earth, yea, doubtless with many that are now in this congregation, that it may be are at ease and quiet, than he is with many of those that are now in the flames of hell.
So that it is not because God is unmindful of their wickedness, and don't resent it, that he don't let loose his hand and cut them off. God is not altogether such an one as themselves, though they may imagine him to be so. The wrath of God burns against them, their damnation don't slumber, the pit is prepared, the fire is made ready, the furnace is now hot, ready to receive them, the flames do now rage and glow. The glittering sword is whet, and held over them, and the pit hath opened her mouth under them.
V. The devil stands ready to fall upon them and seize them as his own, at what moment God shall permit him. They belong to him; he has their souls in his possession, and under his dominion. The Scripture represents them as his "goods" (Luke 11:21). The devils watch them; they are ever by them, at their right hand; they stand waiting for them, like greedy hungry lions that see their prey, and expect to have it, but are for the present kept back; if God should withdraw his hand, by which they are restrained, they would in one moment fly upon their poor souls. The old serpent is
407 --
gaping for them; hell opens its mouth wide to receive them; and if God should permit it, they would be hastily swallowed up and lost.
VI. There are in the souls of wicked men those hellish principles reigning, that would presently kindle and flame out into hell fire, if it were not for God's restraints. There is laid in the very nature of carnal men a foundation for the torments of hell: there are those corrupt principles, in reigning power in them, and in full possession of them, that are seeds of hell fire. These principles are active and powerful, and exceeding violent in their nature, and if it were not for the restraining hand of God upon them, they would soon break out, they would flame out after the same manner as the same corruptions, the same enmity does in the hearts of damned souls, and would beget the same torments in 'em as they do in them. The souls of the wicked are in Scripture compared to the troubled sea (Isaiah 57:20). For the present God restrains their wickedness by his mighty power, as he does the raging waves of the troubled sea, saying, "Hitherto shalt thou come, and no further" [Job 38:11]; but if God should withdraw that restraining power, it would soon carry all afore it. Sin is the ruin and misery of the soul; it is destructive in its nature; and if God should leave it without restraint, there would need nothing else to make the soul perfectly miserable. The corruption of the heart of man is a thing that is immoderate and boundless in its fury; and while wicked men live here, it is like fire pent up by God's restraints, whenas if it were let loose it would set on fire the course of nature; and as the heart is now a sink of sin, so, if sin was not restrained, it would immediately turn the soul into a fiery oven, or a furnace of fire and brimstone.
VII. It is no security to wicked men for one moment, that there are no visible means of death at hand. 'Tis no security to a natural man, that he is now in health, and that he don't see which way he should now immediately go out of the world by any accident, and that there is no visible danger in any respect in his circumstances. The manifold and continual experience of the world in all ages, shows that this is no evidence that a man is not on the very brink of eternity, and that the next step won't be into another world. The unseen, unthought of ways and means of persons going suddenly out of the world are innumerable and inconceivable. Unconverted men walk over the pit of hell on a rotten covering, and there are innumerable places in this covering so weak that they won't bear their weight, and these places are not seen. The arrows of death fly unseen at noonday; the sharpest sight can't discern them. God has so many different unsearchable ways of taking wicked men out of the world and sending
408 --
'em to hell, that there is nothing to make it appear that God had need to be at the expense of a miracle, or go out of the ordinary course of his providence, to destroy any wicked man, at any moment. All the means that there are of sinners going out of the world, are so in God's hands, and so universally absolutely subject to his power and determination, that it don't depend at all less on the mere will of God, whether sinners shall at any moment go to hell, than if means were never made use of, or at all concerned in the case.
VIII. Natural men's prudence and care to preserve their own lives, or the care of others to preserve them, don't secure 'em a moment. This divine providence and universal experience does also bear testimony to. There is this clear evidence that men's own wisdom is no security to them from death: that if it were otherwise we should see some difference between the wise and politic men of the world, and others, with regard to their liableness to early and unexpected death; but how is it in fact? Ecclesiastes 2:16, "How dieth the wise man? as the fool."
IX. All wicked men's pains and contrivance they use to escape hell, while they continue to reject Christ, and so remain wicked men, don't secure 'em from hell one moment. Almost every natural man that hears of hell, flatters himself that he shall escape it; he depends upon himself for his own security; he flatters himself in what he has done, in what he is now doing, or what he intends to do; everyone lays out matters in his own mind how he shall avoid damnation, and flatters himself that he contrives well for himself, and that his schemes won't fail. They hear indeed that there are but few saved, and that the bigger part of men that have died heretofore are gone to hell; but each one imagines that he lays out matters better for his own escape than others have done: he don't intend to come to that place of torment; he says within himself, that he intends to take care that shall be effectual, and to order matters so for himself as not to fail.
But the foolish children of men do miserably delude themselves in their own schemes, and in their confidence in their own strength and wisdom; they trust to nothing but a shadow. The bigger part of those that heretofore have lived under the same means of grace, and are now dead, are undoubtedly gone to hell: and it was not because they were not as wise as those that are now alive; it was not because they did not lay out matters as well for themselves to secure their own escape. If it were so, that we could come to speak with them, and could inquire of them, one by one, whether they expected when alive, and when they used to hear about hell, ever to be the subjects of that misery, we doubtless should hear one and another reply, "No, I never intended to come here; I had laid out matters
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otherwise in my mind; I thought I should contrive well for myself; I thought my scheme good; I intended to take effectual care; but it came upon me unexpected; I did not look for it at that time, and in that manner; it came as a thief; death outwitted me; God's wrath was too quick for me; O my cursed foolishness! I was flattering myself, and pleasing myself with vain dreams of what I would do hereafter, and when I was saying, ‘Peace and safety,’ then sudden destruction came upon me" [1 Thessalonians 5:3].
X. God has laid himself under no obligation by any promise to keep any natural man out of hell one moment. God certainly has made no promises either of eternal life, or of any deliverance or preservation from eternal death, but what are contained in the covenant of grace, the promises that are given in Christ, in whom all the promises are yea and amen. But surely they have no interest in the promises of the covenant of grace that are not the children of the covenant, and that don't believe in any of the promises of the covenant, and have no interest in the Mediator of the covenant.
So that whatever some have imagined and pretended about promises made to natural men's earnest seeking and knocking, 'tis plain and manifest that whatever pains a natural man takes in religion, whatever prayers he makes, till he believes in Christ, God is under no manner of obligation to keep him a moment from eternal destruction.
So that thus it is, that natural men are held in the hand of God over the pit of hell; they have deserved the fiery pit, and are already sentenced to it; and God is dreadfully provoked, his anger is as great towards them as to those that are actually suffering the executions of the fierceness of his wrath in hell, and they have done nothing in the least to appease or abate that anger, neither is God in the least bound by any promise to hold 'em up one moment; the devil is waiting for them, hell is gaping for them, the flames gather and flash about them, and would fain lay hold on them, and swallow them up; the fire pent up in their own hearts is struggling to break out; and they have no interest in any mediator, there are no means within reach that can be any security to them. In short, they have no refuge, nothing to take hold of, all that preserves them every moment is the mere arbitrary will, and uncovenanted unobliged forbearance of an incensed God.
Application.
The Use may be of Awakening to unconverted persons in this congregation. This that you have heard is the case of everyone of you that are out
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of Christ. That world of misery, that lake of burning brimstone is extended abroad under you. There is the dreadful pit of the glowing flames of the wrath of God; there is hell's wide gaping mouth open; and you have nothing to stand upon, nor anything to take hold of: there is nothing between you and hell but the air; 'tis only the power and mere pleasure of God that holds you up.
You probably are not sensible of this; you find you are kept out of hell, but don't see the hand of God in it, but look at other things, as the good state of your bodily constitution, your care of your own life, and the means you use for your own preservation. But indeed these things are nothing; if God should withdraw his hand, they would avail no more to keep you from falling, than the thin air to hold up a person that is suspended in it.
Your wickedness makes you as it were heavy as lead, and to tend downwards with great weight and pressure towards hell; and if God should let you go, you would immediately sink and swiftly descend and plunge into the bottomless gulf, and your healthy constitution, and your own care and prudence, and best contrivance, and all your righteousness, would have no more influence to uphold you and keep you out of hell, than a spider's web would have to stop a falling rock. Were it not that so is the sovereign pleasure of God, the earth would not bear you one moment; for you are a burden to it; the creation groans with you; the creature is made subject to the bondage of your corruption, not willingly; the sun don't willingly shine upon you to give you light to serve sin and Satan; the earth don't willingly yield her increase to satisfy your lusts; nor is it willingly a stage for your wickedness to be acted upon; the air don't willingly serve you for breath to maintain the flame of life in your vitals, while you spend your life in the service of God's enemies. God's creatures are good, and were made for men to serve God with, and don't willingly subserve to any other purpose, and groan when they are abused to purposes so directly contrary to their nature and end. And the world would spew you out, were it not for the sovereign hand of him who hath subjected it in hope. There are the black clouds of God's wrath now hanging directly over your heads, full of the dreadful storm, and big with thunder; and were it not for the restraining hand of God it would immediately burst forth upon you. The sovereign pleasure of God for the present stays his rough wind; otherwise it would come with fury, and your destruction would come like a whirlwind, and you would be like the chaff of the summer threshing floor.
The wrath of God is like great waters that are dammed for the present; they increase more and more, and rise higher and higher, till an outlet is given, and the longer the stream is stopped, the more rapid and mighty
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is its course, when once it is let loose. 'Tis true, that judgment against your evil works has not been executed hitherto; the floods of God's vengeance have been withheld; but your guilt in the meantime is constantly increasing, and you are every day treasuring up more wrath; the waters are continually rising and waxing more and more mighty; and there is nothing but the mere pleasure of God that holds the waters back that are unwilling to be stopped, and press hard to go forward; if God should only withdraw his hand from the floodgate, it would immediately fly open, and the fiery floods of the fierceness and wrath of God would rush forth with inconceivable fury, and would come upon you with omnipotent power; and if your strength were ten thousand times greater than it is, yea, ten thousand times greater than the strength of the stoutest, sturdiest devil in hell, it would be nothing to withstand or endure it.
The bow of God's wrath is bent, and the arrow made ready on the string, and Justice bends the arrow at your heart, and strains the bow, and it is nothing but the mere pleasure of God, and that of an angry God, without any promise or obligation at all, that keeps the arrow one moment from being made drunk with your blood.
Thus are all you that never passed under a great change of heart, by the mighty power of the Spirit of God upon your souls; all that were never born again, and made new creatures, and raised from being dead in sin, to a state of new, and before altogether unexperienced light and life (however you may have reformed your life in many things, and may have had religious affections, and may keep up a form of religion in your families and closets, and in the house of God, and may be strict in it), you are thus in the hands of an angry God; 'tis nothing but his mere pleasure that keeps you from being this moment swallowed up in everlasting destruction.
However unconvinced you may now be of the truth of what you hear, by and by you will be fully convinced of it. Those that are gone from being in the like circumstances with you, see that it was so with them; for destruction came suddenly upon most of them, when they expected nothing of it, and while they were saying, "Peace and safety": now they see, that those things that they depended on for peace and safety, were nothing but thin air and empty shadows.
The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked; his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times so abominable in his eyes as the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended
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him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince: and yet 'tis nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment; 'tis to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep: and there is no other reason to be given why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God's hand has held you up; there is no other reason to be given why you han't gone to hell since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship: yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you don't this very moment drop down into hell.
O sinner! Consider the fearful danger you are in: 'tis a great furnace of wrath, a wide and bottomless pit, full of the fire of wrath, that you are held over in the hand of that God, whose wrath is provoked and incensed as much against you as against many of the damned in hell; you hang by a slender thread, with the flames of divine wrath flashing about it, and ready every moment to singe it, and burn it asunder; and you have no interest in any mediator, and nothing to lay hold of to save yourself, nothing to keep off the flames of wrath, nothing of your own, nothing that you ever have done, nothing that you can do, to induce God to spare you one moment.
And consider here more particularly several things concerning that wrath that you are in such danger of.
First. Whose wrath it is: it is the wrath of the infinite God. If it were only the wrath of man, though it were of the most potent prince, it would be comparatively little to be regarded. The wrath of kings is very much dreaded, especially of absolute monarchs, that have the possessions and lives of their subjects wholly in their power, to be disposed of at their mere will. Proverbs 20:2, "The fear of a king is as the roaring of a lion: whoso provoketh him to anger, sinneth against his own soul." The subject that very much enrages an arbitrary prince, is liable to suffer the most extreme torments, that human art can invent or human power can inflict. But the greatest earthly potentates, in their greatest majesty and strength, and when clothed in their greatest terrors, are but feeble despicable worms of the dust, in comparison of the great and almighty Creator and King of heaven and earth: it is but little that they can do, when most enraged, and when they have exerted the utmost of their fury. All the kings of the earth before God are as grasshoppers, they are nothing and less than nothing: both their love and their hatred is to be despised. The wrath of the great King of kings is as much more terrible than their's, as his majesty is
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greater. Luke 12:4-05, "And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, fear him."
Second. 'Tis the fierceness of his wrath that you are exposed to. We often read of the fury of God; as in Isaiah 59:18, "According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay fury to his adversaries." So Isaiah 66:15, "For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebukes with flames of fire." And so in many other places. So we read of God's fierceness. Revelation 19:15, there we read of "the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of almighty God." The words are exceeding terrible: if it had only been said, "the wrath of God," the words would have implied that which is infinitely dreadful; but 'tis not only said so, but "the fierceness and wrath of God": the fury of God! the fierceness of Jehovah! Oh how dreadful must that be! Who can utter or conceive what such expressions carry in them! But it is not only said so, but "the fierceness and wrath of almighty God." As though there would be a very great manifestation of his almighty power, in what the fierceness of his wrath should inflict, as though omnipotence should be as it were enraged, and exerted, as men are wont to exert their strength in the fierceness of their wrath. Oh! then what will be consequence! What will become of the poor worm that shall suffer it! Whose hands can be strong? and whose heart endure? To what a dreadful, inexpressible, inconceivable depth of misery must the poor creature be sunk, who shall be the subject of this!
Consider this, you that are here present, that yet remain in an unregenerate state. That God will execute the fierceness of his anger, implies that he will inflict wrath without any pity: when God beholds the ineffable extremity of your case, and sees your torment to be so vastly disproportioned to your strength, and sees how your poor soul is crushed and sinks down, as it were into an infinite gloom, he will have no compassion upon you, he will not forbear the executions of his wrath, or in the least lighten his hand; there shall be no moderation or mercy, nor will God then at all stay his rough wind; he will have no regard to your welfare, nor be at all careful lest you should suffer too much, in any other sense than only that you shall not suffer beyond what strict justice requires: nothing shall be withheld, because it's so hard for you to bear. Ezekiel 8:18, "Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity; and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet I will not hear them." Now God stands ready to pity you; this is a day of mercy; you may
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cry now with some encouragement of obtaining mercy: but when once the day of mercy is past, your most lamentable and dolorous cries and shrieks will be in vain; you will be wholly lost and thrown away of God as to any regard to your welfare; God will have no other use to put you to but only to suffer misery; you shall be continued in being to no other end; for you will be a vessel of wrath fitted to destruction; and there will be no other use of this vessel but only to be filled full of wrath: God will be so far from pitying you when you cry to him, that 'tis said he will only laugh and mock (Proverbs 1:25-32).
How awful are those words, Isaiah 63:3, which are the words of the great God, "I will tread them in mine anger, and will trample them in my fury, and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment." 'Tis perhaps impossible to conceive of words that carry in them greater manifestations of these three things, viz. contempt, and hatred, and fierceness of indignation. If you cry to God to pity you, he will be so far from pitying you in your doleful case, or showing you the least regard or favor, that instead of that he'll only tread you under foot: and though he will know that you can't bear the weight of omnipotence treading upon you, yet he won't regard that, but he will crush you under his feet without mercy; he'll crush out your blood, and make it fly, and it shall be sprinkled on his garments, so as to stain all his raiment. He will not only hate you, but he will have you in the utmost contempt; no place shall be thought fit for you, but under his feet, to be trodden down as the mire of the streets.
Third. The misery you are exposed to is that which God will inflict to that end, that he might show what that wrath of Jehovah is. God hath had it on his heart to show to angels and men, both how excellent his love is, and also how terrible his wrath is. Sometimes earthly kings have a mind to show how terrible their wrath is, by the extreme punishments they would execute on those that provoke 'em. Nebuchadnezzar, that mighty and haughty monarch of the Chaldean empire, was willing to show his wrath, when enraged with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego; and accordingly gave order that the burning fiery furnace should be het seven times hotter than it was before; doubtless it was raised to the utmost degree of fierceness that human art could raise it: but the great God is also willing to show his wrath, and magnify his awful majesty and mighty power in the extreme sufferings of his enemies. Romans 9:22, "What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction?" And seeing this
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is his design, and what he has determined, to show how terrible the unmixed, unrestrained wrath, the fury and fierceness of Jehovah is, he will do it to effect. There will be something accomplished and brought to pass, that will be dreadful with a witness. When the great and angry God hath risen up and executed his awful vengeance on the poor sinner; and the wretch is actually suffering the infinite weight and power of his indignation, then will God call upon the whole universe to behold that awful majesty, and mighty power that is to be seen in it. Isaiah 33:12-14, "And the people shall be as the burning of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burnt in the fire. Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; and ye that are near, acknowledge my might. The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?"
Thus it will be with you that are in an unconverted state, if you continue in it; the infinite might, and majesty and terribleness of the omnipotent God shall be magnified upon you, in the ineffable strength of your torments: you shall be tormented in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb; and when you shall be in this state of suffering, the glorious inhabitants of heaven shall go forth and look on the awful spectacle, that they may see what the wrath and fierceness of the Almighty is, and when they have seen it, they will fall down and adore that great power and majesty. Isaiah 66:23-24, "And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."
Fourth. 'Tis everlasting wrath. It would be dreadful to suffer this fierceness and wrath of almighty God one moment; but you must suffer it to all eternity: there will be no end to this exquisite horrible misery. When you look forward, you shall see a long forever, a boundless duration before you, which will swallow up your thoughts, and amaze your soul; and you will absolutely despair of ever having any deliverance, any end, any mitigation, any rest at all; you will know certainly that you must wear out long ages, millions of millions of ages, in wrestling and conflicting with this almighty merciless vengeance; and then when you have so done, when so many ages have actually been spent by you in this manner, you will know that all is but a point to what remains. So that your punishment will indeed be infinite. Oh who can express what the state of a soul in such circumstances
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is! All that we can possibly say about it, gives but a very feeble faint representation of it; 'tis inexpressible and inconceivable: for "who knows the power of God's anger?" [Psalms 90:11].
How dreadful is the state of those that are daily and hourly in danger of this great wrath, and infinite misery! But this is the dismal case of every soul in this congregation, that has not been born again, however moral and strict, sober and religious they may otherwise be. Oh that you would consider it, whether you be young or old. There is reason to think, that there are many in this congregation now hearing this discourse, that will actually be the subjects of this very misery to all eternity. We know not who they are, or in what seats they sit, or what thoughts they now have: it may be they are now at ease, and hear all these things without much disturbance, and are now flattering themselves that they are not the persons, promising themselves that they shall escape. If we knew that there was one person, and but one, in the whole congregation that was to be the subject of this misery, what an awful thing would it be to think of! If we knew who it was, what an awful sight would it be to see such a person! How might all the rest of the congregation lift up a lamentable and bitter cry over him! But alas! instead of one, how many is it likely will remember this discourse in hell? And it would be a wonder if some that are now present, should not be in hell in a very short time, before this year is out. And it would be no wonder if some person that now sits here in some seat of this meeting house in health, and quiet and secure, should be there before tomorrow morning. Those of you that finally continue in a natural condition, that shall keep out of hell longest, will be there in a little time! your damnation don't slumber; it will come swiftly, and in all probability very suddenly upon many of you. You have reason to wonder, that you are not already in hell. 'Tis doubtless the case of some that heretofore you have seen and known, that never deserved hell more than you, and that heretofore appeared as likely to have been now alive as you: their case is past all hope; they are crying in extreme misery and perfect despair; but here you are in the land of the living, and in the house of God, and have an opportunity to obtain salvation. What would not those poor damned, hopeless souls give for one day's such opportunity as you now enjoy!
And now you have an extraordinary opportunity, a day wherein Christ has flung the door of mercy wide open, and stands in the door calling and crying with a loud voice to poor sinners; a day wherein many are flocking to him, and pressing into the kingdom of God; many are daily coming from the east, west, north and south; many that were very lately in the same miserable condition that you are in, are in now an happy state, with
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their hearts filled with love to him that has loved them and washed them from their sins in his own blood, and rejoicing in hope of the glory of God. How awful is it to be left behind at such a day! To see so many others feasting, while you are pining and perishing! To see so many rejoicing and singing for joy of heart, while you have cause to mourn for sorrow of heart, and howl for vexation of spirit! How can you rest one moment in such a condition? Are not your souls as precious as the souls of the people at Suffield,7 where they are flocking from day to day to Christ?
Are there not many here that have lived long in the world, that are not to this day born again, and so are aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and have done nothing ever since they have lived, but treasure up wrath against the day of wrath? Oh sirs, your case in an especial manner is extremely dangerous; your guilt and hardness of heart is extremely great. Don't you see how generally persons of your years are passed over and left, in the present remarkable and wonderful dispensation of God's mercy? You had need to consider yourselves, and wake thoroughly out of sleep; you cannot bear the fierceness and wrath of the infinite God.
And you that are young men, and young women, will you neglect this precious season that you now enjoy, when so many others of your age are renouncing all youthful vanities, and flocking to Christ? You especially have now an extraordinary opportunity; but if you neglect it, it will soon be with you as it is with those persons that spent away all the precious days of youth in sin, and are now come to such a dreadful pass in blindness and hardness.
And you children that are unconverted, don't you know that you are going down to hell, to bear the dreadful wrath of that God that is now angry with you every day, and every night? Will you be content to be the children of the devil, when so many other children in the land are converted, and are become the holy and happy children of the King of kings?
And let everyone that is yet out of Christ, and hanging over the pit of hell, whether they be old men and women, or middle aged, or young people, or little children, now hearken to the loud calls of God's Word and providence. This acceptable year of the Lord, that is a day of such great favor to some, will doubtless be a day of as remarkable vengeance to others. Men's hearts harden, and their guilt increases apace at such a day as this, if they neglect their souls: and never was there so great danger of such persons being given up to hardness of heart, and blindness of mind. God seems now to be hastily gathering in his elect in all parts of the land; and
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probably the bigger part of adult persons that ever shall be saved, will be brought in now in a little time, and that it will be as it was on that great outpouring of the Spirit upon the Jews in the apostles' days, the election will obtain, and the rest will be blinded. If this should be the case with you you will eternally curse this day, and will curse the day that ever you was born, to see such a season of the pouring out of God's Spirit; and will wish that you had died and gone to hell before you had seen it. Now undoubtedly it is, as it was in the days of John the Baptist, the ax is in an extraordinary manner laid at the root of the trees, that every tree that brings not forth good fruit, may be hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Therefore let everyone that is out of Christ, now awake and fly from the wrath to come. The wrath of almighty God is now undoubtedly hanging over great part of this congregation: let everyone fly out of Sodom. Haste and escape for your lives, look not behind you, escape to the mountain, lest you be consumed [Genesis 19:17].
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ROTFLMFAO!!!
What a crock of shit! . . .and this is the kind of crap you believe in . . . . ha ha ha ha
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 23, 2010 - 04:33pm PT
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Interesting fact: Jonathon Edwards was Aaron Burr's grandfather.
Make of that what you will.
777 dude, the more you get into a tizzy about how scared we all need to be of the imaginary Judeo-Christian deity's wrath, the less balanced you seem to be.
In all your psych training, has it ever occurred to you that your faith is merely a coping mechanism for some textbook PTSD?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 23, 2010 - 04:52pm PT
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Wes!
I called on His name, plain and simple!
I don't know why He spared me. Certainly not because of some test!!! You are clueless on that one dude!
And certainly not because I am more special than anyone else! Perhaps you may recall "God so loved the world..."
So quit trying to lay some guilt trip on me, it's not my "Trip"(Had to through that in there) Haha!
Seriously, I don't realy know why weschrist! I just know He loves children...the reason I turned to Him at that strategic moment.
You guys realy twist the whole concept around, giving man the glory for what is good, and cursing God for whatever is bad. The earth is ageing. And perhaps, just perhaps America should take notice and get down on there knees and repent. For all its sins. I am not equating anything here in regards to why do earthquakes happen, and why doesn't God warn all the children and have them get a leave of absince. You are sugesting such and such.
I believe first and foremost that we should pray for and assist Haiti as Christians and as a Nation. And seconly get on our knees and thank God for what He has given us and pray for mercy. BTW I live in Cali, and have lived through at least a half dozen major earth quakes, including the Northridge and a few other devistating ones(also Mammoth 1980).
Soooo not science!!!
WHAT????
Do you know what an OT is? We have all the science and anatomy that is required to become a Physical Therapist plus MUCHO Neuroscience! I am not going to bore you with a list but there is MEGA science, biology, physics, chemistry, anatomy and physiology, psych, human development etc. Then, when you are accepted in to the program Neuroanatomy, neurophysiology kinesiology applied physics etc. another 2.5 years of it!! It is now a Pre-Med Curriculum that is required and then you are qualified to enter the OT programs which are all Masters degrees as of about 1999-2000!
We had human cadavers for at least one lab course every semester...fascinating!
Not to mention all the math and General Ed requirements in science, plus I took astronomy and geology courses on my own initiative because they were intriguing.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 23, 2010 - 05:00pm PT
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I don't know where to start.
MH2:
One night driving back from a weekend I had an attack of vertigo so severe I could not walk, much less drive. Meniere's syndrome. So I got a little more familiar with the mechanisms you describe. The doctor said they could cut the nerve but then the eyes would not be programmed to remain looking at an object when I tilt my head back. I said no thanks, that's worse than falling down and heaving. Control systems are a branch of engineering all in themselves and in all of them you need to pick a signal out from random noise riding on that signal. As you described all of that is going on while we stand erect and attempt to remain standing. That is the noise to which I was referring and it limits the brain's ability to detect real earth motion.
777:
Hatred is a very strong word. Fortunately it is, here, not applicable.
Let's look at a hypothesis. Suppose I tell you, very sincerely, that I have met the tooth fairy and that she told me I will burn and writhe in agony through eternity if I insist upon not brushing my teeth. Based upon my experience I, also sincerely, tell you that you face the same fate.
What would you say?
Would you not come up with a gentlemanly, but still forceful reply assuring me I needed to put corks in my ears so the brain stops leaking out? I submit so.
Whatever your experience may have been, it remains yours, unalterably. People here have been trying to tell you this. You do not seem to be listening.
But you have, so far, failed to answer a huge question. People were once put to the rack by people claiming to be following christ, exactly as do you.
How do you deal with the fact people believing just as you do have over and over again been responsible for some of the most horrible abuses ever perpetrated by a homo sapiens.
How are you different?
Try and persuade me you are different.
Can you do that?
Edit:
When I try to puzzle out 777's statement I "have it backward", I can do it only by assuming 777 believes catholics are not christian. Only then can I parse what he wrote.
Once again it seems this particular religion is entirely in the eye of the beholder.
There is only perception.
Perhaps Jan or another familiar with Eastern thought could tell us whether this same dispute exists there also.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 23, 2010 - 05:05pm PT
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Wes!
In regards to earthquakes, He said that they would increase in the last day's!! A matter of the aging earth! Not because He is punishing one nation or either. Can you read the signs of the times?
Look at the statistics, they have increased 10 fold over the last century!! And are continuing to do so! Read the SCIENCINTIFIC documentation!!
I am going outside for the remainder of the day...finally got some SUNSHINE!
LATE...as my nephew says!!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 23, 2010 - 05:31pm PT
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jstan!
You got it backwards!
The Inquisition was a Catholic Church killing protestants!
Mao(by the way, remember all the little red books in every good little college students hands during the 60's??
Mao se Tung, Stalin, Nazi third Reich, Castro, Mussolini, Cambodia etc. all during the last century alone were responsible for the mass murder of over 50+++ million souls!! All were atheistic regimes!
How am I killing anyone by telling them that Jesus Christ is God. You won't even give Him a chance. Some where you became bitter towards any father figure or God that could be called such and create such a place...exactly the way I felt by the time I was 18 and knew without any doubt that Jesus was God.
I had no knowledge of Him other than what little I learned at Catholic Church. And I left there twisted religion in regards to praying to saints and priests and purgatory and children and baptism etc.
At 18 I had a... I already have typed pages regarding this right here on this thread.
Jesus Christ said there would be hate and check your own heart in regards to the name of Jesus Christ jstan!
It's a beautiful day, gotta go!
Later!
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jstan
climber
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Jan 23, 2010 - 05:37pm PT
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I have encountered studies of possible tectonic activity on the other planets in the solar system. I think it was a study of the stratigraphy of Venus that led to a very interesting hypothesis. Planets lacking tectonic activity seem especially unable to support life and that if and when earthquakes cease on earth, life may also cease. (If it has not already done so for other reasons.)
Should this prove to be the case the earth's iron rich core has made it possible for us to be here. And that iron was made available only because of the particular masses possessed by the supernovae tielding the material out of which the solar system is composed.
Supermassive stars do not persist for long and possibly not long enough to generate nuclei like iron which is at the energy minimum. Elements above iron in the periodic chart are not produced by processes generally found in stars at steady state. Our progenitor stars apparently were relatively old and it appears formed our solar system only after a good 10,000,000,000 years.
It would appear we are late arrivals.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 23, 2010 - 05:41pm PT
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Jstan!
Was Jesus different??
I follow Jesus! Don't follow me.
I haven't killed anyone, nor has anyone I support.
So the Catholic Church did all these killings? Who did all these killings in Jesus name? They were not followers of Jesus.
It is a very NARROW path that the follower of Jesus Christ is on...and few that find it!! I would at least give Him a try jstan...Him, not some religion of the masses!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 23, 2010 - 05:48pm PT
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Wes- "Maybe your faith wasn't strong enough. Mine was..."
STOP PUTTING LUDICROUS WORDS IN MY MOUTH!!
I would never say such pathetic excuses you...you are SICK!!!
~777~
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 23, 2010 - 05:54pm PT
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5,500 posts so far. 777 hasn't run out of the exclamation marks with which he likes to (unnecessarily) adorn his thoughts, and gobee is still preaching.
Heaven help us all.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 23, 2010 - 06:03pm PT
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"Heaven help us."
Anders has been saved!!!!!
Tell me that is not an achievement!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 23, 2010 - 06:15pm PT
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MH!
Maybe you would prefer to have your ears tickled?
Here's one for starters...All ways lead to god! There are a number of people here that will tell you that. Plenty of churches. How about there is no god? Lets see, just about anything but the J and C words. And never mention HELL...heaven help us!
And then there are the religions that worship the creation, not the creator.
But then none of them believe in a Creator God...or have compromised Him so much that He realy isn't significant.
Regarding hell, He created it for Satan! Light and darkness. Only two places.
He wanted everyone to choose heaven with Him.
Who in their right mind would choose Hell?
So I tell people who ask(not many outside of this forum lately)about how Jesus loves them and wants to spend eternity with them.
And I and Gobee are the bad guys.
Yes Heaven help them... and ME!
~777~
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
You wanted to!
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Jan 23, 2010 - 06:16pm PT
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SOME ways lead to the Circle K.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Jan 23, 2010 - 06:35pm PT
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Little known fact: that is actually one of the Circles of Hell that Dante left out.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 23, 2010 - 06:47pm PT
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TripL7:
"Perfection is attained not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away!" St-Exupery
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 23, 2010 - 07:34pm PT
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Ricky
Just plain stupid and retarded mental speculations on your part as almost all the other stupid mental speculations about what God is and does.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 23, 2010 - 07:47pm PT
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So 777, the PTSD theory, whaddya think?
He will cover you with his feathers,
and under his wings you will find refuge;
his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.
You will not fear the terror of night,
nor the arrow that flies by day,
nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness,
nor the plague that destroys at midday.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 23, 2010 - 07:53pm PT
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More stupid retarded bullsh'it from cintune as usual.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 23, 2010 - 07:59pm PT
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Ricky
You're just a retard idiot.
No one is fearful of retards like you guys ......
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Jan 23, 2010 - 08:20pm PT
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Cintune might have a point with the PTSD in regards to 777.
As to you Werner, you really have a thing for that word "retard". You're deaf aren't you? Kinda talk funny too doncha? I bet the other kids called little Werner a "retard" when he was growing up, didn't they?
Just sayin'.
BTW most people who have a mentally-challenged (i.e. retarded) relative, find the use of "retard" as an insult, quite offensive.
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Rankin
climber
North Carolina
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Jan 23, 2010 - 08:31pm PT
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Bwaahaaahaa! I love the taco!
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jstan
climber
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Jan 23, 2010 - 08:36pm PT
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777:
Thank you. To make sense of one of your posts I had had to infer that you considered catholics to be "not christian." Your subsequent confirmation relieves me of worrying that I had done you an injustice.
I have had my share of feeling good from knowing that I was more right than others. But you know that is all illusion. It is like swearing after you mash your thumb with a hammer.
It feels good, but does it really help?
The only question is how shall we approach the important decisions that lie ahead of us.
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roadman
climber
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Jan 23, 2010 - 08:51pm PT
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RickyIf god is omnipresent and is everywhere he would be in my a*#.
But I just had a colonoscopy and can confirm that god isn't in my a*#.
And if god isn't in my a*# the omnipresence argument collapses as does this whole god-thingy.
Dude that's funny sh#t.... Not sure what crawled up that rescue dudes ass (bruan)? but I read about his CRAZY eyes.... ha ha ha ba ha haha..
Dude's a nialist/godist/thinks he is nothing or something. Definitely needs to smoke some more kind... and watch the big Libowski Now that movie has the answers to all of lifes questions!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 23, 2010 - 09:39pm PT
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In 1973 in High School, when Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon came out, I studied Kung Fu under Sifu John Leoning (Kajukenbo Kenpo Karate & Kung Fu) who played Master Te in the first Kung Fu pilot and television series! I got free lessons, for being the janitor! A wonderful man! Originally from Hawaii!
John had, Bodidharma's;
"To fall seven times, is to rise eight times,
life starts from now..."
saying on the wall in his North Hollywood studio on Burbank Bl. I always loved that saying!
Bodhidharma was born in Southern India in 482. He was a royal prince who gave up everything to follow the teachings of the Buddha. He was sent to China by his master, Prajnatara, to re-invigorate Buddhism. He met with Chinese Emperor Wu Ti, a devout Buddhist. Because of a philosophical disagreement with the Emperor, Bodidharma retreated to a small cave and became renowned for sitting in meditation for nine years. In 526, he taught the monks at the Shaolin Temple a system of self-defense that evolved into the martial arts style now known as Kung Fu. Bodhidharma died in 539 at the Shaolin Temple at age 57.
Proverbs 24:15-16,
Lie not in wait as a wicked man against the dwelling of the righteous;
do no violence to his home;
for the righteous falls seven times and rises again,
but the wicked stumble in times of calamity.
Prov. 22:17–24:22 The Thirty Sayings of “The Wise.” This section easily divides into 30 discrete teachings, as indicated in 22:20, and these reflect an awareness of the Egyptian wisdom text, The Instruction of Amenemope, dated to about 1250 b.c. Clearly 22:17–24:22 did not slavishly copy Amenemope, but there are many affinities in content. The most significant difference between the two is the devotion to the Lord exhibited in Proverbs. The identity of “the wise” (22:17) is unknown; perhaps they are the scholars who assembled these proverbs (possibly under Solomon's sponsorship).
Prov. 24:15–16 Saying Twenty-seven. This warns against joining with the wicked in injustice because it forms a person's character in a way that will not be beneficial in calamity. The righteous is able to rise repeatedly because both his person and his path are sustained by the Lord (cf. 2:6–8; 15:29).
Matthew 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David were fourteen generations, and from David to the deportation to Babylon fourteen generations, and from the deportation to Babylon to the Christ fourteen generations.( Solomon was the son of King David)
From ESV STUDY BIBLE;
Proverbs itself mentions Solomon (reigned c. 971–931 b.c.) as author or collector of its contents (1:1; 10:1), including the proverbs copied by Hezekiah's men (25:1). There are also two batches of sayings from a group called “the wise” (22:17–24:22; 24:23–34), and “oracles” from Agur (30:1–33) and Lemuel (31:1–9). But no author is named for the song in praise of the excellent wife that ends the book (31:10–31).
Solomon's interest in proverbs is corroborated by 1 Kings 4:29–34: “Solomon's wisdom surpassed the wisdom of all the people of the east and all the wisdom of Egypt. . . . He also spoke 3,000 proverbs, and his songs were 1,005.” However, the proverbs mentioned in Kings are not necessarily identical to those of the book of Proverbs. First Kings speaks of Solomon composing proverbs about trees, beasts, birds, reptiles, and fish (1 Kings 4:33), but there are few such sayings in the Solomonic parts of Proverbs. Even so, there is nothing in the Bible to contradict the idea that Solomon was responsible for the portions of this book attributed to him. It is possible that he sponsored those who collected material from other sources (the wise, Agur, and Lemuel), but no one can be sure. At any rate the book does not claim that Solomon put it into its final form, since Hezekiah (see Prov. 25:1) reigned c. 715–686 b.c., long after Solomon's time. (For a discussion of the identities of Agur and Lemuel, see notes on 30:1–33 and 31:1–9.)
Today, many scholars assert that most of Proverbs was written much later than the time of Solomon, and many interpreters ascribe most of the contents of the book and certainly its final form to the postexilic period (i.e., after 539 b.c., when the Hebrews were in contact with the Persians and then the Greeks). There is little clear evidence to support such skepticism, however. The Hebrew of Proverbs is not demonstrably of a late variety, and there are no bits of historical evidence within the text that speak against an origin in the tenth century b.c. for the Solomonic portions of Proverbs. To the contrary, there are three principal arguments for dating this material to the reign of Solomon, apart from the claim of 1:1.
First, wisdom texts very similar to Proverbs predate the book of Proverbs by as much as a millennium. In addition to proverb texts from early Mesopotamia, a wide array of wisdom literature from Egypt has numerous and striking parallels to Proverbs. Some important ones are: The Instruction of Vizier Ptah-hotep (written in the 5th or 6th Egyptian Dynasty, c. 2500–2190 b.c.); The Instruction for Merikare (10th Dynasty, c. 2106–2010 b.c.); and The Instruction of Amenemope (probably written c. 1250 b.c.). The existence of these and other wisdom texts shows that the practice of composing discourses on wisdom and collecting wise sayings was already ancient by the time of Solomon. The notion that interest in such material could not have evolved until late in Israelite history conflicts with the evidence.
The second argument is based in the nature of the Solomonic kingdom as described in the Bible. It is referred to as a golden age of peace, prosperity, and international prestige for Israel. As a rule, it is in such times that a flowering of literature occurs. For example, of the above Egyptian texts, Ptah-hotep is from the powerful Old Kingdom period, and Amenemope is from the New Kingdom period. Merikare is an exception, coming from the weaker First Intermediate Period of Egypt, but it is rooted in the wisdom of the Old Kingdom. Similarly, the giants of Greek dramatic literature (Aeschylus, Sophocles, Euripides, and Aristophanes) emerged in the fifth century b.c., during the time of the Athenian Empire, and it was also at that time that Socrates propelled Western philosophy forward. The greatest works of Latin literature, and in particular the Aeneid of Virgil, were written in the golden age of Augustus. Based on these analogies, it is much more likely that the bulk of Proverbs comes from the golden age of Solomon than from the much more humble age of Hezekiah, to say nothing of the postexilic period, when Jerusalem was a cultural backwater.
Third, the Jewish wisdom literature known to be from the postexilic period, especially Sirach (also called Ecclesiasticus; c. 180 b.c.) and the pseudepigraphal Wisdom of Solomon (1st century b.c.), is noteworthy for being quite unlike Proverbs, clearly displaying the concerns of Hellenistic Judaism. Sirach seeks for a pious ideal based in following the already completed Hebrew Scriptures, and mentions particular figures in biblical and postbiblical history. The Wisdom of Solomon is concerned with matters of immortality, eschatology, and philosophy in a different way from Proverbs. There is a Lady Wisdom in the Wisdom of Solomon but, although clearly derived from Proverbs 8, this Lady Wisdom is described as an “emanation of the glory of the Almighty” and the “radiance of eternal light” (Wisd. Sol. 7:25–26), i.e., using terms unlike any used for Lady Wisdom in Proverbs 8 and thus reflecting a later era. Proverbs itself shows no indication of the postexilic age, either of the Persian or the Hellenistic period.
In summary, there is nothing that speaks against and much that speaks in favor of dating the materials in Proverbs to the Solomonic era. This does not mean that Solomon personally composed every proverb in the book, and the text does not say that he did. Further, the present form of the book is from a later time than the age of Solomon, but probably no later than Hezekiah.
Theme
Proverbs states its theme right at the book's beginning (1:1–7): its goal is to describe and instill “wisdom” in God's people, a wisdom that is founded in the “fear of the Lord” and that works out covenant life in the practical details of everyday situations and relationships.
Purpose, Occasion, and Background
Proverbs is the prime example of “Wisdom Literature” in the OT, the other books being Job, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Solomon, together with the wisdom psalms (e.g., Psalm 112). In the NT, James is usually counted as a wisdom book, and parts of Jesus' teaching belong in this category as well. (See Introduction to the Poetic and Wisdom Literature.)
It is sometimes said that the Wisdom Literature is separate from the rest of the OT, lacking an interest in God's choice of Israel and his overarching purpose for the nations, the law, the temple and priesthood, and sacred history. Wisdom Literature, it is said, is more about living in the creation than it is about God's work of redemption. This is a false opposition for several reasons.
First, the OT presents God's redemption as restoring the damaged creature, man, to his proper functioning (as set out in the creation narrative of Genesis). This covenant given through Moses does not specify all of God's rules; its purpose is to set out the constitution of the theocracy, to give general moral guidance, and to provide a system by which God's people can know his forgiveness. Some principles like those in Proverbs can be discerned by wise observation of God's world, and not all of the worthy observers come from Israel (see note on Prov. 31:1–9). Second, the wisdom psalms take wisdom themes and make them a part of Israel's hymnody (and thus of its public worship). Third, Proverbs bases its instruction on the fear of the Lord (1:7, using the special covenantal name of God), implying that its audience is the covenant people (cf. Deut. 6:2, 24; 10:12). Fourth, as the notes will show, Proverbs has plenty of connections to the law: e.g., cf. Proverbs 11:1 to Deuteronomy 25:13–16; and see Proverbs 29:18 for a positive assessment of both prophetic vision and the Law of Moses.
Nevertheless, Proverbs is not at all the same as the Law or the Prophets. The difference is one of emphasis rather than basic orientation. The Law and the Prophets lay their stress on the covenant people as a whole, called to show the world what restored humanity can be; Proverbs focuses on what such restoration should look like in day-to-day behavior and in personal character.
A key term in Proverbs is of course “wisdom.” The word (Hb. khokmah) can have the nuance of “skill” (as it does in Ex. 28:3), particularly the skill of choosing the right course of action for the desired result. In the covenantal framework of Proverbs, it denotes “skill in the art of godly living.”
The opening of the book also discloses its intended audience (Prov. 1:4–5): the simple, the youth, the wise, and the one who understands. (See Character Types in Proverbs.) Questions about the book's purpose have focused on the identity of “the youth” (1:4): is this any Israelite boy or girl, or is it specifically young men on the verge of adulthood, or is it young men who will serve the royal court?
The last option gets most of its support from the wisdom literature found in other lands of the ancient Near East, particularly Egypt and Mesopotamia, which seems to be oriented to preparing diligent and honest men to serve the royal bureaucracy. Since Proverbs has points of contact with this larger wisdom tradition, and since the “words of the wise” (22:17–24:34) show an even closer connection to Egyptian wisdom (see note on 22:17–24:22), it can seem reasonable to attribute to Proverbs a similar function to wisdom in these other lands.
Such an attribution, however, runs into the simple fact that the collection of Proverbs, taken as a whole, repels the idea of a selective, elite audience, stressing instead the home and life in the village and farm. For example, the instructions are father (and sometimes mother, see 1:8) to son (for the inclusion of daughters, see Literary Features), and the situations envisioned are staples of ordinary life (marriage, raising children, discreet speech, diligence in harvest, concern for the poor neighbor, etc.). Indeed, when Lady Wisdom offers her benefits, she calls out to everyone (8:4–5), particularly to every member of the covenant people.
Considering these aspects, and the list of addressees in 1:4–5, it is easy to see that the book is addressed to all the people of Israel (and through them to all mankind). The situations faced by the youth receive much attention, probably because they supply concrete examples from which others can generalize. Additionally, the “wise” who pay attention will also benefit (1:5), so the audience is not limited to the youth. The best way to put this in light of the rest of the ancient Near East is to say that Proverbs represents the “democratization” of wisdom, the offer of it to all people.
The nature of Proverbs shows why Christians, who do not live in the theocracy established by the Mosaic covenant, should still find in this book wisdom for their lives. God gave the Mosaic covenant to his people out of his grace, in order to restore human life to its proper functioning within the specific context of the Israelite theocracy. In the same way the Christian message is God's gracious way of restoring human life for all kinds of people, fulfilling the promises made to the patriarchs. Both situations express the same grace of God, and both have the goal of restoring the image of God in man. Further, many of the proverbs make use of wise observations of God's world—which is the same world in which Christians live today. For all the “local” features found in the book (e.g., a society based on agriculture; Palestinian climate; Mosaic institutions), its wisdom is universally applicable. Therefore it is no surprise that NT authors readily make use of its individual proverbs (e.g., Rom. 12:20, using Prov. 25:21–22; Heb. 12:5–6, using Prov. 3:11–12) and its broader themes (e.g., James as a wisdom book), setting the pattern for Christians of all ages.
Key Themes
Proverbs covers a wide array of topics from daily life: diligence and laziness (6:6–11); friendship (3:27–28; 18:24); speech (10:19–21); marriage (18:22; 19:14); child rearing (22:6); domestic peace (15:17; 17:1); work (11:1); getting along and good manners (23:1–2; 25:16–17; 26:17–19; 27:14); eternity (14:32; 23:17–18); and much more. In each of these areas it offers wisdom for realizing the life of the covenant in the details; it shows that “godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come” (1 Tim. 4:8). It demonstrates clearly that:
1. God's will is intensely practical, applying to every aspect of his people's lives. A proper relation to God involves, first, trying hard to understand his truth, and then embracing and obeying what one understands.
2. A life lived by God's will is a happy life (3:21–26).
3. A life lived by God's will is a useful life (3:27–28; 12:18, 25).
4. A life lived by God's will does not just happen; one must seek after it, study, pursue it, and discipline oneself.
5. Such a life is available to those who go after it (9:1–6).
History of Salvation Summary
The history of salvation generally deals with the overarching story of God's work in calling, preserving, and shaping a people for himself, through whom he will bring blessing to the whole world. It also takes up the unfolding of God's revelation, especially the developing idea of who the Messiah will be and what he will do. At first glance, Proverbs has little to do with this, focused as it is on the daily life of particular members of God's people. However, it has much in every way to offer. First, the people in Proverbs are God's covenant people, and the kings are Davidic. Second, concern for the well-being of the people as a whole is never absent from the book (e.g., 11:14; 14:34; 29:2, 18).
The connection of Proverbs to salvation history can be seen more fully from noticing how Psalms 111–112 work together: Psalm 111, a hymn of praise, celebrates the great works of the Lord that further his redemptive purpose for his people, while Psalm 112 is a wisdom psalm, looking very much like Proverbs set to music. The two psalms have much in common (see notes there), which invites the reader to connect them. The wisdom described in Psalm 112 and in Proverbs guides the particular Israelite in his priorities and choices, and enables him to contribute to the whole body of God's people. It is what leads the covenant members toward the ideal of likeness to God and properly functioning humanity, so that their lives carry something of a taste of Eden—and this is what the Gentiles need to see in them. (For an explanation of the “History of Salvation,” see the Overview of the Bible. See also History of Salvation in the Old Testament: Preparing the Way for Christ.)
Character Types in Proverbs
To read Proverbs well, one must have a good grasp of who the character types are and what function they serve in the book.
The most obvious characters in the book are the wise, the fool, and the simple. Proverbs urges its readers to be wise, that is, to embrace God's covenant and to learn the skill of living out the covenant in everyday situations (cf. 2:2). The wise person has done that (cf. 10:1); usually Proverbs focuses on the one who has made good progress in that skill, whose example is worth following (cf. 9:8b).
The fool is the person steadily opposed to God's covenant (cf. 1:7b). The setting of Proverbs assumes there can be fools even among God's people. There are three Hebrew terms translated “fool” (kesil, ’ewil, nabal), with little difference among them. This kind of person resists even the offer of forgiveness found in the covenant (14:9; 15:8). These people are dangerous in their influence (13:20; 17:12) and cause grief to their parents (10:1); but they are not beyond hope (8:5).
The simple is the person who is not firmly committed, either to wisdom or to folly; he is easily misled (cf. 14:15). His trouble is that he does not apply himself to the discipline needed to gain and grow in wisdom.
Proverbs also uses other terms, both positive (e.g., righteous, upright, diligent, understanding, prudent) and negative (e.g., wicked, lazy, lacking sense). These do not designate different groups of people from the wise and the fools; rather, the terms are commonly “co-referential,” i.e., they apply to the same people looked at from different angles. The righteous is the one who has embraced the covenant, seen from the perspective of his faithfulness to God's will; the wise is the same person, seen from the perspective of his skill in living out God's will; the prudent is the same individual seen as one who carefully plans out his obedience. Likewise, the wicked is the one who rejects God's covenant, seen from the angle of his opposition to God; the fool is this same person, seen from the angle of the stupid course of life he has chosen.
The co-referential use of these terms helps the reader to discern the many-sided fruits of godliness and ungodliness.
Also, these characters usually serve as idealized portraits: that is, they denote people exemplary for their virtue and wisdom or especially despicable for their evil. The literary name for this is “caricature”: portraits of people with features exaggerated for easy identification. The positive figures serve as ideals for the faithful, to guide their conduct and character formation. The negative figures are exaggerated portraits of those who do not embrace the covenant, so the faithful can recognize these traits in themselves and flee them.
Beyond the co-referential negative terms, there are some gradations: the scoffer is worse than a fool (21:24), and the person wise in his own eyes is almost beyond hope (cf. 26:12). The difference is one of hardness in unteachability (the great sin in Proverbs). The simple is not as far gone as the fool. All of these are what the OT calls “uncircumcised” in heart, and what Christian theology calls “unregenerate.”
Personified Wisdom and Christ
Proverbs commends pursuing “wisdom,” portraying it as a virtue. In four poems in chapters 1–9, wisdom is also personified as a noble lady whom one should pursue: 1:20–33; 3:13–20; 8:1–36; 9:1–18 (contrasted with Lady Folly). The poem of chapter 8 seems to go beyond personification to describing a personality, which has led to discussions of whether Christians should relate this description to Christ.
In the first few Christian centuries it was widely accepted that Christ was the incarnation of Wisdom in chapter 8. The Septuagint translation of 8:22 was read to mean, “the Lord created me” (see esv footnote; the Gk. might not be that specific), and thus the Arians (who denied the deity of Christ) found here a proof that the Logos (the “Word” of John 1:1) was a creature, and not God. But Athanasius, defending the deity of Christ, took the text to refer to Christ's incarnation, and not to his preexistence. The esv renders the Hebrew verb qanah as “possessed,” which is a more accurate translation. The verse means that wisdom is the character of God by which he created (cf. 3:19), and therefore should not be taken as his creature; this is the wisdom he gives to those who will learn from Proverbs. In this light, neither side of those who based their discussion on the Septuagint had the correct understanding of the original Hebrew text.
It would appear, however, that Proverbs 8 played a role in the way NT authors described Christ. Paul's “before all things” (Col. 1:17) seems to draw on Proverbs 8:23–26, with its repeated “before.” Wisdom in Proverbs 8 seems to be a personality—indeed, it seems to be what rationality would be if it were a person—by which God made the world. This is like Psalm 33:6, “By the word of the Lord the heavens were made.” The NT authors further expand this idea in texts such as John 1:1–3; Colossians 1:16–17; and Hebrews 1:3, 10–12, all of which insist that Jesus Christ is the incarnation of that divine person through whom God made the world.
Literary Features
The book of Proverbs is what the title implies—a collection or anthology of individual proverbs. In addition to being teachers and authority figures, the wise men of ancient cultures were literary craftsmen—careful observers of the human condition and masters of a particular kind of discourse (the proverb).
The first nine chapters of the book are wisdom poems that extend over several verses, urging the reader to pursue wisdom. The proverbs proper—the concise, memorable statement of two or three lines—begin in 10:1.
A proverb works by making a comparison, and leaving it to the reader to work out how the proverb applies to different situations, following current cultural conventions. In English, “You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink” is regularly applied to human relationships rather than ranching, and the competent reader knows this.
One question in reading Proverbs concerns context, namely, is there any? The Purpose, Occasion, and Background section has already argued that the covenant provides the theological context (hence God's grace and Israel's life in the land are always assumed); likewise, one can easily recognize subsistence agriculture (living from one crop to the next) as the basic cultural context (hence wealth and poverty are understood in that setting). There is also literary context: chapters 1–9 provide the ideals and motivation for pursuing wisdom, giving the right frame of mind in which to read the one-sentence proverbs. Additionally, chapters 1–9 are composed of coherent paragraphs in which the individual verses have their meaning. But do paragraphs occur in chapters 10–31 (besides the acrostic poem, 31:10–31)? It appears that in many cases they do, and so in reading the individual one-sentence proverbs, one must take account of their possible location in a paragraph context. The notes aim to apply this principle.
A feature of wisdom literature is its concreteness: i.e., the principle is often given in terms of a specific circumstance or a specific person, rather than in terms of a generalization about people (plural). The false balance, contrasted with the just weight (11:1), is a particular instance of the difference between swindling and honesty in one's work ethic and commercial dealings. A father speaks to his son, recalling his own boyhood (4:1–4), as a specific parent speaking to a particular child (rather than to one's children or to children in general). The idea is not to exclude, say, fathers speaking to daughters (or mothers speaking to sons and daughters); rather, by reflecting on a specific instance the wise reader will perceive the application to his or her own situation (making the appropriate adaptations).
In some cases individual proverbs seem to supply contradictions; the best example is 26:4–5, admonishing not to answer a fool, and then to answer a fool. These are only contradictory if it is forgotten that they are proverbs, and not laws: the successive verses apply in different situations (see note on 25:28–26:12). Most languages have the same phenomenon: English has “Many hands make light work” and “Too many cooks spoil the broth.” At first sight these seem contradictory, but wisdom includes competence in matching the proverb to the right situation.
Proverbs of necessity focus on consequences, and this raises the question of whether they are “promises.” Proverbs by nature deal with general truths, and are not meant to cover every conceivable situation. Consider the English proverb, “Short cuts make long delays”; the very form of the proverb forbids adding qualifiers, whether of frequency (often, usually, four times out of five) or of conditions (except in cases where . . .); these would lessen the memorability of the sentence. The competent reader knows that the force of the proverb is not statistical, but behavioral—in the case of the English proverb cited, to urge due caution. In biblical proverbs, the consequences generally make God's basic attitude clear, and thus commend or discourage behavior.
Proverbs often seem to be mere observations about life, but their deeper meanings will reveal themselves if the following grid is applied: (1) What virtue does this proverb commend? (2) What vice does it hold up for disapproval? (3) What value does it affirm?
Outline
Title, Goal, and Motto (1:1–7)
A Father's Invitation to Wisdom (1:8–9:18)
First paternal appeal: do not join those greedy for unjust gain (1:8–19)
First wisdom appeal (1:20–33)
Second paternal appeal: get wisdom (2:1–22)
Third paternal appeal: fear the Lord (3:1–12)
A hymn to wisdom (3:13–20)
Fourth paternal appeal: walk securely in wisdom (3:21–35)
Fifth paternal appeal: wisdom is a tradition worth maintaining (4:1–9)
Sixth paternal appeal: the two ways (4:10–19)
Seventh paternal appeal: maintain a heart of wisdom (4:20–27)
Eighth paternal appeal: sexuality (5:1–23)
Warnings relating to securing debt, sloth, and sowing discord (6:1–19)
Ninth paternal appeal: adultery leads to ruin (6:20–35)
Tenth paternal appeal: keep away from temptations to adultery (7:1–27)
Second wisdom appeal (8:1–36)
Lady Wisdom and Lady Folly (9:1–18)
Proverbs of Solomon (10:1–22:16)
The Thirty Sayings of “the Wise” (22:17–24:22)
Further Sayings of “the Wise” (24:23–34)
Hezekiah's Collection of Solomonic Proverbs (25:1–29:27)
The Sayings of Agur (30:1–33)
The Sayings of King Lemuel (31:1–9)
An Alphabet of Womanly Excellence (31:10–31)
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.2) By John MacArthur http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
The King of Glory
A Psalm of David.
Psalm 24, The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof,
the world and those who dwell therein,
2 for he has founded it upon the seas
and established it upon the rivers.
3 Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord?
And who shall stand in his holy place?
4 He who has clean hands and a pure heart,
who does not lift up his soul to what is false
and does not swear deceitfully.
5 He will receive blessing from the Lord
and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
6 Such is the generation of those who seek him,
who seek the face of the God of Jacob. Selah
7 Lift up your heads, O gates!
And be lifted up, O ancient doors,
that the King of glory may come in.
8 Who is this King of glory?
The Lord, strong and mighty,
the Lord, mighty in battle!
9 Lift up your heads, O gates!
And lift them up, O ancient doors,
that the King of glory may come in.
10 Who is this King of glory?
The Lord of hosts,
he is the King of glory! Selah
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Jan 23, 2010 - 11:45pm PT
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I sometimes wonder why things feel good to us. I think it's an interesting connection to this conversation.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 24, 2010 - 12:46am PT
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MH2- "Fossil"
Is that a current add?
Loved my Chouinard piolet, wish I would have kept it It's incredible what was required of someone climbing all the ice routes here in Cali! Starting with the Trough...what a fine ice route right here in sunny Cali. Starts with vertical(close to 80+ degree for 20 ft or so. I front pointed it, my two partners stemmed that start. Just beautiful in the right conditions!
And then the Swallow? Tahquitz NW Face(1971-2)probably the first ascent in mixed conditions. We never took off our Chouinard crampons, from what I recall.
Then Lee Vining/June Lake and the Palisades etc. All we had were that very Chouinard/Frost piolet. Plus an ice hammer.
Yea, dinosaurs...but they required TECHNIQUE!
If it was good enough for Coonyard...it's good enough for me!
Although I'd love to work some a them new tools!
I don't recall what point I was attempting to make with that quote, it was stuck in the back of my craw from somewhere...
Trip~
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 24, 2010 - 12:59am PT
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Since someone asked,here's the afterlife according to eastern religions. As you will see, it is a much more optimistic view than that of the Middle Eastern originated religions.
First the Hindus:
The universe is was created for God's own enjoyment. He set down the laws of math and physics, including the principles of evolution for this universe, but the current universe is not the first one created nor the last. No problems with the big bang theory or evolution. In fact, the intelligence, energy, and spirit of the second person of the trinity has incarnated numerous times on this planet.
The first person of the Hindu trinity Brahma, represents consciousness and creativity, the second, Vishnu, represents knowledge and love, and the third Shiva, represents power both destructive and constructive in all its forms.
A standard depiction of Vishnu shows also when he appeared to the fish, the amphibians, the lesser mammals, the more intelligent mammals, to the tribesmen of India, to Ram living as a Dravidian, and as Ram the warrior prince of the Indo-Europeans. He was followed by Krishna and Buddha, and modern westernized Indians will add, of course Jesus as well. Individual gurus are also recognized by their followers as incarnations from time to time. The Indian spirit is always to be generous in giving credit, rather than exclusionary, although Hindus tend to focus on either Krishna or Shiva.
The Indian style is to choose your own form of God to worship and your own path though many simply follow family tradition. You can worship God as male or female, as father, mother, friend, lover, child, male or female, or in the highest form, the invisible spirit without form. Likewise for the manifestations of the 2nd and 3rd persons of the trinity. If you are a tribal person still worshipping rocks and trees, that's ok too. Eventually we will all understand the formless God.
As for paths, we can choose the path (yoga) of knowledge (including the study of science), of love and devotion, of selfless service, or meditation and psychic expriementation. Of course a fully enlightened person will be completely balanced in all four.
Of course all this is predicated on reincarnation, that we have many lifetimes to learn and raise our consciousness. Heaven(s) and Hell(s) are temporary places before recycling back through. Most people, having attained a human body come back as human again and again. We have all been male and female, single and married, of one race and another, so no need to take pride or be attached to any physical appearance.
Also, while we see only our own short lifespans, in terms of eternity or at least the duration of this universe, it does not really matter if our lives are short, as they are but a speck of time in the grand tableau. The trick for us is to play our roles well on the stage of life, and not forget that it is only a stage, and not the whole show.
The ultimate goal is to purify our karma and grow in wisdom until we are able to either be face to face with God (a destination above the temporary heavens) and worship in a relationship, or to be reabsorbed into God and lose our individual identity, like a cup of salt water being poured back into the ocean.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 24, 2010 - 01:10am PT
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cintune- "PTSD theory, what do you think"
Thirty-one days after the event, I was taken over to the man's house(very unexpectedly). He had been electrocuted at work and after being released from the hospital was recuperating at his mothers. I accompanied my next door neighbor and a car load of kids to town(Norwood/Norwalk, upstate NY). Each kid had to enter the living room through a closed door...alone!
I had absolutely NO FEAR when I entered that room and closed the door behind me. He was sitting on one end of the couch and his mother was on the other. He was wrapped in bandages from head to foot. I stood there staring into his dark eyes for the longest time, thinking "This man is as good as dead, he will never be able to hurt me or anyone else ever again.
His mother let out a sigh, which broke my concentration and I turned and walked out. Rarely thought about the dude again after that. No nightmares, dreams, fear of the dark Nada!
"You shall fear only the Lord your God..." Deuteronomy 6:13. Fear meaning revere, respect, obey out of love.
I have no fear of man or death!
EDIT: For an 8 year old kid to walk into a room with a serial killer, who thirty days before attempted to murder him(me)and have no fear, is by the work and power of God(Holy Spirit).
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 24, 2010 - 01:34am PT
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jstan- "catholics not christian"
That would have to be entirely on an individual basis. As a kid I considered myself a Catholic. They said they believed in Jesus, that He was God. Who was I to say otherwise. But at 8 yrs old, I knew that God had entered into my life. That was the crucial point in my belief. His presence filled my life.
I realised at that time that Jesus was God, and a relationship began at that moment. I knew of no other religion that proclaimed Him as God. It took another ten years. I had big doubts about many of the Catholic Church's teachings starting around 13 years old.
Jesus said "Even the demons believe that Jesus is God..." it takes more than believing He is God. He is asking you to commit your whole life to Him. A personal relationship. It is a life long commitment. The Catholic teaches none of that. Pathetic.
My father, sister mother,brother and niece and nephew, all practicing and believing Catholics(believing in the Catholic Church). For instance, everyone went through baptism and confirmation etc. But each one of them will tell you that they did not know Christ and they were not going to Heaven until they personally asked Christ into their heart, many years after a life as a Catholic.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 24, 2010 - 01:37am PT
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Jan:
We have all been male and female, single and married, of one race and another, so no need to take pride or be attached to any physical appearance.
This is a good way to look at things, whether true or not. John Rawls A Theory of Justice asks what rules society should live by. Once again, the base is some form of the Golden Rule. But he starts by supposing that no one knows ahead of time at what place or in what role they will find themselves. If you don't know ahead of time what your lot will be, your best bet is to make the rules as equitable as possible.
It might work if we could shuffle the deck a little more often than every 70 years or so. And accepted that we were coming back.
Or as a Jack Paar skit put it: Sure, we were all created equal, but when a man comes into money...
I like this:
"You never know what is around the next corner - a team of street acrobats, a group of beggers, an elephant decked out in make up and jewelry, a group of orange robed holy men, giggling school girls in British uniforms, a couple of computer programmers, a troop of langur monkeys pursued by irate people who have just been robbed of their bags and sun glasses, cows fornicating away and causing a traffic jam, street vendors cooking spicy snacks, and always and everywhere super friendly people dressed in clothes of bright and cheerful colors."
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 24, 2010 - 02:03am PT
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Wanda/roadman/Ricky et al!
You have sunk to a new low...how low can you get?
I think we should just ignore your existence, your such a waste of time.
FWIW Some people harden their heart to such a point that God/Holy Spirit no longer convicts them of sin(speaks to their hearts).
But then that is for God to decide, although He did caution us not to cast pearls before swine...you three qualify under that category!
Do you realy consider someone who is/was(corrected with hearing aid) hearing impaired to be retarded?? How about someone who is seeing impaired?
I believe you owe Werner an apology.
WB is one of the most incredible, caring, sharing, loving and intelligent individuals I have ever known. He would give YOU the shirt off his back. Talking about the dude that will walk the extra mile without any shoes for YOU, or for anyone who asks!
You guys are simply PATHETIC! Take a look at yourself in the mirror and ask "Where did I go wrong?" Then get down on your knees and pray for mercy.
None the less, the God that created you, still loves you...take advantage of it.
EDIT: Werner shows class...you guys lack any semblance of class!
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Jan 24, 2010 - 02:12am PT
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The devil made me do it.
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kingpin
climber
methdeathsto ca
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Jan 24, 2010 - 02:22am PT
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I am an anarchist
And I am an ANTICHRIST!!........
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 24, 2010 - 03:20am PT
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cintune- "PTSD"
"Perfect love casts out fear"
You should check Him out!
"Fear not for I am with you alway's sayith the Lord"
I have no fear of death cintune, I havent since I was 8 yrs old. And I certainly don't fear any mere man. How about you cintune/Wanda/Ricky et al?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 24, 2010 - 05:45am PT
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This thread is fine when people are exchanging ideas. The problem starts when one side or the other starts dishing out personal insults. So far I must say, it's a certain contingent of atheists who have been most active in that regard.
However, I think the rest of us are smart enough not to generalize from their small mindedness and bad manners to the rest of the caring and compassionate atheists on this thread.
There are atheists and there are atheists, just as their are religious people and then there are religious people.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 24, 2010 - 10:54am PT
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Not quite getting how "classy" it is to call people who disagree with you "stupid idiot retards" in the first place, and then dismissing their questions and thoughts as "bullsh#t."
But then again maybe that's a compliment, coming from a sacred cow.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 24, 2010 - 02:58pm PT
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777:
I think we are coming to our very first agreement.
I said what you wrote implied you think catholics are not christians.
You seemed to confirm that.
Now you also say that is a personal decision.
Which is exactly what I said. That you had personally decided in your own mind that catholics were not christian.
From your history I can certainly understand why you have great misgivings about that sect. Several people even on ST have discussed similar experiences.
Now I am going to make an inferential leap. It requires your attention.
If everyone gets to decide for themselves who is christian and who is not, what does the word really mean? Anything?
More importantly what keeps us from seeing two people, both of whom shout christ's glory, as they do their best to murder each other, each claiming to be a "real" christian.
And can you see how odious are the both of them as neither has any appreciation for what christ was actually saying?
I will here assume the two of us are yet "on the same page."
In light of this very deep problem
if one would want other people simply to treat each other better, as christ suggested was needed, are we not advised NEVER even to use the word "christian."
Doing so only makes very simple teachings-------open to doubt.
You should merely go out and do your very best to treat others as you wish yourself to be treated.
The golden rule.
You are living the teachings as christ lived them.
You don't need to be called by any word other than
FRIEND.
Edit:
777:
You invoke all of that prior history because you believe it aids what you are trying to do.
Think for a moment.
Would you be getting a better hearing here on ST if you did not invoke and accept the crippling amount of baggage you get with your approach?
You wish to persuade us. But you do not listen to us when we tell you where you are going wrong.
Anyone who wishes to persuade without being willing to be persuaded
is soon unmasked.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 24, 2010 - 03:13pm PT
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So Jan, are you positing that reincarnation is now a legitimate part of christian theology for anyone but jesus or god?
...and not forget that it is only a stage, and not the whole show
I would claim this belief is a principal one behind the environmental degradation of the planet - do as you will, god put it all here for you to use and it's all of temporary consequence anyway.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 24, 2010 - 04:35pm PT
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jstan!
Friend yes!
But when you have a friend like Jesus, it would be selfish not to tell others about Him. What He has done for you. And He requests that you tell others about Him.
Like I said it is a relationship, not a religion that you join and follow blindly. He speaks to your heart. He gave us the four gospels, His love letter to the world. He finishes with "Go yea into the world..." That is being accomplished literally now through the Internet and satellite television(some remote areas where missionaries are not allowed). And also through missionaries, as in the past. And of course just simple sharing with "whoever has ears to here."
Jesus was about changing hearts, you don't do that with the sword.
Certainly He didn't aspire to take over a country, or rule the world. Satan offered Him the world, showed Him the adulation of the masses. And Satan could have gave it to Him...He didn't deny that. But first of all He would have had to bow down to Satan, something He would never do. And secondly, it would have come by force and manipulation, deceit etc.(sound familiar?)kind of like politics, religion etc.
Plus, He came to give all who desire it eternal life, and He was willing to pay the price.
He desires to be just that John, your friend. He has been knocking on your door...only you can let Him in.
EDIT: Of course He will rule the world some day as prophesied, but according to God's plan.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 24, 2010 - 05:01pm PT
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Ricky- "If god is omnipresent and everywhere he would be in my a*#."
I got news for ya, God is everywhere. The darkest recesses of this planet, even in such perverted dark pathetic places as your mind! Doesn't get any more smelly than that. Only He would be willing to go there and fix it, no one else could.
BTW, should your colonoscopy ever come back positive, and you run out of hope, just remember... He is capable of fixing that too.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 24, 2010 - 05:23pm PT
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If Jesus himself would knock on my door...
But as Karl keeps saying, that is being too literal.
Religious folk should let others make their own way. You seem to be carrying a modern version of the White Man's Burden to the heathens. The whole planet has cell phone coverage, now. We can find our way to the nearest church if we feel the need to. By pushing a particular religion you run the risk of getting other religions pushing back. We've seen enough of that.
On sensing earthquakes
No matter how well coupled your head is to a concrete slab, the semicircular canals would probably play only a minor role in p- and s-wave detection. The canals are specialized for angular accelerations. It is the utriculus and sacculus that tell us about linear accelerations.
The hair cells of the otoliths, like all hair cells, have an axis of maximum sensitivity. A push along that axis in one direction maximally excites, a push in the opposite direction maximally inhibits, and with all other directions you do a calculation with the hair cell polarization vector and the vector of the force.
The vestibular hair cells virtually all have a high resting (when force is absent or orthogonal to the polarization vector) discharge rate. This allows roughly symmetrical responses to excitatory and inhibitory stimuli. It also means there is no significant threshold to how weak an acceleration the system can detect. It comes down to how many individual hair cell responses are averaged.
Goldberg and Fernández
http://jn.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/93/6/3032
inter-aural time differences
http://jn.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/96/3/969
Hudspeth hair cell
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC383283/pdf/pnas00003-0504.pdf
HHMI hair cell article
http://www.hhmi.org/senses/c110.html
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 24, 2010 - 06:20pm PT
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Rokjox!
I was talking about Jesus knocking on the door to you heart! Which He does do to every living soul!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 24, 2010 - 06:34pm PT
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Verses used by Phil Johnson in today's sermon, filling in for John MacArthur still off after back surgery...
Example of Hagar and Sarah
Galatians 4:21-31, Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23 But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written,
“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”
28 Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30 But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31 So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.
Matthew 3:9, And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.
Galatians 3:11, Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”
Galatians 3:29, 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
Romans 2:29, But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.
Genesis 21:12, But God said to Abraham, “Be not displeased because of the boy and because of your slave woman. Whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for through Isaac shall your offspring be named.
Romans 4:16-25, That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. 18 In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” 19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb. 20 No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, 21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. 22 That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” 23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
Genesis 12:1-3, Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you. 2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Hebrews 11:10-12, For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.
Leviticus 18:5, You shall therefore keep my statutes and my rules; if a person does them, he shall live by them: I am the Lord.
Ezekiel 18:4, Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.
Matthew 3:15, But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he consented.
Hebrews 7:26, For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens.
Romans 10:3-4, For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
.........
Proverbs 25:11-14, A word fitly spoken
is like apples of gold in a setting of silver.
12 Like a gold ring or an ornament of gold
is a wise reprover to a listening ear.
13 Like the cold of snow in the time of harvest
is a faithful messenger to those who send him;
he refreshes the soul of his masters.
14 Like clouds and wind without rain
is a man who boasts of a gift he does not give.
Teach Me Your Paths
Of David.
Psalm 25, To you, O Lord, I lift up my soul.
2 O my God, in you I trust;
let me not be put to shame;
let not my enemies exult over me.
3 Indeed, none who wait for you shall be put to shame;
they shall be ashamed who are wantonly treacherous.
4 Make me to know your ways, O Lord;
teach me your paths.
5 Lead me in your truth and teach me,
for you are the God of my salvation;
for you I wait all the day long.
6 Remember your mercy, O Lord, and your steadfast love,
for they have been from of old.
7 Remember not the sins of my youth or my transgressions;
according to your steadfast love remember me,
for the sake of your goodness, O Lord!
8 Good and upright is the Lord;
therefore he instructs sinners in the way.
9 He leads the humble in what is right,
and teaches the humble his way.
10 All the paths of the Lord are steadfast love and faithfulness,
for those who keep his covenant and his testimonies.
11 For your name's sake, O Lord,
pardon my guilt, for it is great.
12 Who is the man who fears the Lord?
Him will he instruct in the way that he should choose.
13 His soul shall abide in well-being,
and his offspring shall inherit the land.
14 The friendship of the Lord is for those who fear him,
and he makes known to them his covenant.
15 My eyes are ever toward the Lord,
for he will pluck my feet out of the net.
16 Turn to me and be gracious to me,
for I am lonely and afflicted.
17 The troubles of my heart are enlarged;
bring me out of my distresses.
18 Consider my affliction and my trouble,
and forgive all my sins.
19 Consider how many are my foes,
and with what violent hatred they hate me.
20 Oh, guard my soul, and deliver me!
Let me not be put to shame, for I take refuge in you.
21 May integrity and uprightness preserve me,
for I wait for you.
22 Redeem Israel, O God,
out of all his troubles.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 24, 2010 - 07:12pm PT
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MH2- "Pushing..."
I am not pushing anything. I came on this forum when a specific question was asked, and I answered it. I have since then continued to answer questions and correct fallacy's, misquotes etc. And have offered what seems to be lacking here at times...wisdom and eternal life. Everyone else has their say, I am simply stating what Jesus declared.
America has been blessed with the abundant access of knowledge in regards to JC. "To whom much is given, much will be expected." No one brought up in America will have any excuse come Judgement Day. "For it is for man to live once, then the Judgement." I am doing all I can to warn the lost. No one will discourage me from sharing this.
Forty plus years ago there were few churches in America, then the Jesus Movement hit the streets @1968 and today everyone has heard the Word. There has been an explosion of knowledge. ALL kinds of knowledge, not just spiritual(just as Jesus Christ prophesied).
Funny how the name Jesus Christ brings out such bitterness...but then Jesus forewarned us "They will hate you because of My name."
"This is the judgement, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather then the Light, for their deeds were evil." John 3:19.(Jesus speaking).
And here we are at a thread titled Creationist......run to dugout" And you expect me to be some bleeding lukewarm Christian that Jesus threatens to spit out of His mouth, and not say anything that might offend??
I rarely speak about Jesus, I don't go around knocking on doors or tapping peoples shoulder...generally go months without sharing Christ. But I do pray for the opportunity.
I can understand how a few so called Christian hypocrites can tarnish someones name, read the first three-five pages of Revelation. But all that is being done in the name of Christ is being totally ignored by the media(digging wells, surgery;s, feeding the poor, prison ministry's etc. etc).
But it is Jesus Christ who we please, not the world!
But it is the H word that realy ruffles the feathers, nothing new. See # edit.
I have been a disciple of Christ for fifty years now. I have forty-four magnums stuck in my face and told to get lost, Hollywood Blvd. 13th St. gangster selling crack. I was foolish and just laughed it off and continued to minister to the youth who congregated in that hell-hole. Fortunately the dude just picked up and left. Dude you wouldn't have a clue. But you are spiritually dead(according to Jesus Christ), so I do understand.
EDIT: # Today's pastors are afraid to mention Hell, they'll loose parishioners, sound negative, don't want to offend(lose tithe money). Even the majority of Christians I know prefer not to discuss it, even though they know it is true. Go figure. Jesus warned everyone as did His forerunner John the Baptist and Elijah the Prophet. I have no fear of being an outcast...I am in good company!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 24, 2010 - 07:32pm PT
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777 wrote
My father, sister mother,brother and niece and nephew, all practicing and believing Catholics(believing in the Catholic Church). For instance, everyone went through baptism and confirmation etc. But each one of them will tell you that they did not know Christ and they were not going to Heaven until they personally asked Christ into their heart, many years after a life as a Catholic.
The same could be said for anyone who was blindly raised in the the tradition of their parents or of coincidence. There is a difference between accepting your culture and having a spiritual inspiration. Plenty of Protestants are just as empty until they make the inner connection.
Open up. If there was one true faith, within the one true faith, then they would be clearly and manifestly more full of Love and happiness than all others. Jesus said the tree is known by it's fruits and there are sour fruits and sweet fruits on all the organized trees now. Such is not the case. The path is narrow and people have to find it within themselves according to their personal dance with life and the Divine
PEace
Karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 24, 2010 - 07:38pm PT
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jstan- "When we tell you where you are going wrong."
Where?? Tell me!
I am sharing with you what Jesus preached.
Are you saying that Jesus went wrong?
Then let me be also according to your judgement.
Think about it, all the Apostles except John were Martyred for their belief in Jesus Christ.
Things haven't changed much have they.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 24, 2010 - 07:59pm PT
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Weschrist!
I made a mistake it was the Apostle John who wasn't martyred.
I looked at the King James Bible from the 1600's and it was identical to the current version.
There are many people/scholars who speak and write Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic and English(as Jan mentioned, people from Europe/Asia are remarkably bi-lingual)and have translated such script as the Dead Sea Scrolls and other early manuscripts and have found little change if any in regards to the New and Old Testaments. You are spouting fallacies that have been circulating for centuries that are not true.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 24, 2010 - 08:32pm PT
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Karl!
Good to here you are enjoying yourself in India.
Will be looking forward to seeing your photo's. Hope you brought your camera.
Stay safe...don't be to trustworthy of everyone(be careful).
Wish I could be on such an adventure.
Sincerely, Trip~
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 24, 2010 - 09:40pm PT
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healeyje-
So Jan, are you positing that reincarnation is now a legitimate part of christian theology for anyone but jesus or god?
I can't figure out how you came to this conclusion based on my posting?
It is interesting however, if you read the New Testament, that many Jews of the time thought Jesus was the reincarnation of Elijah.
It is also interesting to note that reincarnation was not made a heresy until 551 A.D. and that plenty of Christians and Jews believed in it then and still.
The argument the church made at the time was that people would get lazy with their spiritual life if they thought they had more than one. Of course the church also would have lost a lot of its political power based on fear if people had believed in reincarnation instead of one lifetime and an afterlife mediated by priests.
...and not forget that it is only a stage, and not the whole show
I would claim this belief is a principal one behind the environmental degradation of the planet - do as you will, god put it all here for you to use and it's all of temporary consequence anyway.
This I disagree with. It is the western view that God gave man dominion over the earth and animals to do with them as he likes that causes the problem. The most extreme example of this was James Watts, the Secretary of the Interior under Reagan who actually said that it didn't matter if they drilled for oil in Yellowstone, as Jesus was returning in this generation and we wouldn't need the national parks anymore after that. !!!
If a person believes in reincarnation, they have an interest in preserving the earth that they are coming back to again and again. Indeed, if one looks at reincarnation based societies, they did a very good job of preserving the environment until modern capitalism and it cheapest, most polluting petroleum products were urged on them. Today most cities in Asia are a polluted mess because of misplaced modernism and capitalism not reincarnation.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 24, 2010 - 10:00pm PT
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But of course deforestation is a huge problem too, brought on by overpopulation... thanks to modern medicine... which seems to have introduced a bunch more "souls" into the bardo-system... somehow....
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Jan 24, 2010 - 10:05pm PT
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Well it actually can be made internally consistent, cintune.
We humans annihilate more species and those extinct species' souls get to come back as humans and annihilate more species.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 24, 2010 - 10:07pm PT
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Oh. Okay then.
Do the trees have souls too?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 24, 2010 - 10:14pm PT
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It also helps to explain the current low level of consciousness of the human race. Too many souls migrating up from the animals who have no experience at being human!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 24, 2010 - 10:38pm PT
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Trees are more complicated. There are indications that they have more consciousness than we would have imagined though it is so different from ours that it is hard to comprehend. When they are attacked by beetles for example, they send out chemicals that alert the others in the forest, who then rev up their immune systems and boost their sap to compensate.
This leads to the question of whether the whole tree has consciousness or just some of its cells have chemical consciousness based on that particular sensory stimulation. Others would argue that the entire universe has holographic consciousness.
Meanwhile, when the Dalai Lama was asked if computers and robots reached a certain level of intelligence, if it would be possible for human souls to reincarnate into them and after having a good laugh, he replied, yes why not? He then went on to add that the human body still seemed a better vehicle for now and a long time into the future.
Personally, I believe the question of the nature of consciousness represents the theology or at least the spiritual cosmology of the future - much more interesting than rehashing the old Catholic - Protestant thing.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 24, 2010 - 10:47pm PT
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healeyje- "Do as you will, god put it here for you all to use..."
There you go putting words/philosophy's into the mouth/laps of followers of Christ. Blaming Jesus Christ for the acts of a handful of politcal decisions.
"Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the sky, and over every living thing that moves on the earth. Behold I have given you every plant living seed that is on the surface of the earth, and every tree..." Genesis 1:28-30.
God has ultimate rule over the earth and He exercises His authority with loving care. When God delegated some of the authority to the human race He expected us to take responsibility for the environment, and the other creatures that share our planet. We must not be careless and wasteful as we fulfil this charge. God was careful how He made this earth. We must not be careless about how we take care of it.
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roadman
climber
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Jan 24, 2010 - 11:13pm PT
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OK OK I take it back you wackjobs need to stop smokin' the pipe! You've got way toooooooo much!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 24, 2010 - 11:17pm PT
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Trip, yer a trip. These double standards will not stand.
Or maybe they will?
So, hey, Stalin, Pol Pot, and the other so-called "atheists" who did bad things...Guess what - they weren't "real" atheists. Real atheists love kittens and children and only do good things, always. You have to let the love of atheism into your heart, it's waiting, but it doesn't need you to get on your knees or be fearful of it.
Open up, Tripster, let Godlessness in.
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roadman
climber
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Jan 24, 2010 - 11:18pm PT
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Who says retard anymore? Dude you're so showing your age....
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roadman
climber
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Jan 24, 2010 - 11:22pm PT
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Did you guys (and yes all you as#@&%es sticking up for that monotheistic crap on here are guys)....ever hear of these "retards" (who says that anymore really!!!)
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roadman
climber
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Jan 24, 2010 - 11:25pm PT
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funny ha ha
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 25, 2010 - 11:55am PT
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roadman-
Your poster is attractive but erroneous. The only two outright atheists on that poster are the two most modern - Hemingway and Sagan. All the others were unconventional in their thinking and none of them were standard orthodox Christians or in Einstein's case Jews, but atheists they were not. They all thoroughly disliked religious hypocrisy, and had their doubts about generally accepted aspects of dogma, but all of them were what used to be known as "deists". They believed that there was an intelligence behind the universe though most of them doubted that it cared much about the daily affairs of men.
Ben Franklin wrote that he thought religion had a good influence on the average man and Thomas Jefferson went to the trouble to make his own New Testament with the miracles removed and only the moral teachings of Jesus included. Several of them including Darwin, attended church most of their adult life, and he declared that it was perfectly possible to believe in a deity and evolution.
Type the names of these individuals into google followed by the word religion, and you will have plenty of interesting religious ideas to read about, many of them similar to ideas expressed on this thread.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 25, 2010 - 01:36pm PT
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Any orthodox christian will tell you that all so called "deists" will end up suffering eternal damnation in hell. Putting deists, who might have an inclination with regard to the intelligent design of the universe, in or under the same tent as orthodox christianity in all its permutations, is problematic at best.
Anyone that thinks Mark Twain was a deist needs to read his "Letters from Earth," a scathing analysis of Christianity in particular. If a god exists Twain sees him as at least incompetent.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 25, 2010 - 05:07pm PT
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If a god exists Twain sees him as at least incompetent.
To the Person Sitting in Darkness
That's you, Christians.
If everything is a part of God's plan, those who approve of His work end up sounding like Candide: "This is the best of all possible worlds."
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jstan
climber
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Jan 25, 2010 - 05:18pm PT
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I believe I have a way to allow churches to get more lifelong followers for each dollar spent on sunday schools.
Hold one special meeting each year for five and six year olds. Video tape the class's reaction as they play George Carlin's performance of "Religion is BS."
Reject all those who were visible rolling on the floor.
They just won't make the grade.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 25, 2010 - 05:19pm PT
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This is all they do.
They hope against hope that God does not exist.
They also hope that there is no soul. More hope against hope.
The absolute fact is bonafidely established that God and the individual soul exists.
Both God and the independent living entities are existing in the past, now and in the future.
Science has confirmed ..........
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 25, 2010 - 05:28pm PT
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God has ultimate rule over the earth and He exercises His authority with loving care. When God delegated some of the authority to the human race He expected us to take responsibility for the environment, and the other creatures that share our planet. We must not be careless and wasteful as we fulfil this charge. God was careful how He made this earth. We must not be careless about how we take care of it.
God is doing a lousy job and sucks at delegating from the point of view of a Gorilla, Shark, or the last Jaguar in the US.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 25, 2010 - 05:31pm PT
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Werner:
A comment:
"They hope against hope that God does not exist.
They also hope that there is no soul."
I repeat myself here.
During the Lincon Douglas debates Douglas insisted "Lincoln wanted/hoped to destroy slavery."
Lincoln replied," When the Honorable Senator from Illinois tells you my intention, he tells you something he cannot know."
Werner, you tell us something you cannot know.
If you preface these statements with "I believe" you can then be asked to document why it is you think this.
That would be a discussion well worth having.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 25, 2010 - 05:34pm PT
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There is NO "I believe". It's absolute fact.
God is NOT doing a lousy job and sucks.
The idiots in this world are doing a lousy job and suck!
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 25, 2010 - 05:36pm PT
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All the foolish rascals try to blame their father for all the nonsense they do.
The father says now you suffer RASCAL ......
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 25, 2010 - 05:40pm PT
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The father says now you suffer RASCAL ......
I guess those Haitians must have been real rascals. Or am I misunderstanding something here?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 25, 2010 - 05:44pm PT
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Werner, could I get some of the chalk you use? I'm sure it must be filled with absolute facts or you'd been dead a long time ago.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 25, 2010 - 05:45pm PT
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Ghost
Yes you are just speculating how everything works.
Jumping to some guessing type solution to how things work will not help one understand.
Do the work correctly and you'll understand correctly ....
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 25, 2010 - 06:03pm PT
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 25, 2010 - 06:31pm PT
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A condition human being is infected with the four defects.
1) Is sure to commit mistakes
2) Is invariably illusioned
3) Has the tendency to cheat others
4) Is limited by imperfect senses.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 25, 2010 - 08:11pm PT
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Thru the Bible - Dr. J. Vernon McGee
Hosea 2:1-16
Monday, January 25, 2010 http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/thru_the_bible_with_jvernon_mcgee/Archives.asp
Proverbs 26:1, Like snow in summer or rain in harvest,
so honor is not fitting for a fool.
I Will Bless the Lord
Of David.
Psalm 26, Vindicate me, O Lord,
for I have walked in my integrity,
and I have trusted in the Lord without wavering.
2 Prove me, O Lord, and try me;
test my heart and my mind.
3 For your steadfast love is before my eyes,
and I walk in your faithfulness.
4 I do not sit with men of falsehood,
nor do I consort with hypocrites.
5 I hate the assembly of evildoers,
and I will not sit with the wicked.
6 I wash my hands in innocence
and go around your altar, O Lord,
7 proclaiming thanksgiving aloud,
and telling all your wondrous deeds.
8 O Lord, I love the habitation of your house
and the place where your glory dwells.
9 Do not sweep my soul away with sinners,
nor my life with bloodthirsty men,
10 in whose hands are evil devices,
and whose right hands are full of bribes.
11 But as for me, I shall walk in my integrity;
redeem me, and be gracious to me.
12 My foot stands on level ground;
in the great assembly I will bless the Lord.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 25, 2010 - 08:54pm PT
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Then what WOULD you tell someone who asked Jesus into their life, prayed everyday for more favorable circumstances, begged Jesus to make the molestation stop, yet got no response... for years? How would you explain there is a loving, all knowing God who deeply cares for his well being, without suggesting that the 6 year old kid was fukd because he didn't believe enough, or ask enough, or was in some other way deficient? How would you explain Jesus cares, when clearly he didn't?
This is a tough question and the only "justice" visible comes when you allow reincarnation into the picture. Somebody I know was molested horribly and it left deep impressions on them. They sought healing and is now beyond most of us on the path to happiness and emotional integrity. They also went deep into meditation and even was able to remember events from past lives....past lives where they had done violent things to their children for selfish reasons. We should have no judgement for that because we have ALL done monsterous things in our ancient past.
This is the real evolution, we suffer the reflections from our past, heal and move forward on a higher level. We are living in a house of mirrors where our world reflects us. Change yourself and the world changes around us.
Now this person's pain made them look deeply within and find themselves in ways that folks born comfortable may never see. They know this pain from the inside out and will use this knowledge to help others who have been abused to heal. They have begun to make peace and understanding with their abuser (who was also abused) and this brings more healing and light into the world.
Yes, this is a tough and brutal world. It reflects what is tough and brutal within us. When we work out our crap we go to worlds that reflect us better or the world around us gets better.
El Cap is also a brutal, dangerous place full of danger, pain, deprivation and more. Why do we choose it instead of going to club med?
Peace
Karl
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 25, 2010 - 09:17pm PT
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The idea that humanity has something like “free will” is a stretch. Humans are directed by evolutionary need: the need to reproduce, to protect a territory for that purpose, etc. We are driven by those needs that are often at odds with the imposed morality of any given mythological system. To say we have the free will to choose between a moral dictate born of some mythology and the desires and needs imposed upon us by nature is ridiculous; our choices are weighted by forces over which we have almost no control. It seems “god” has set up a system of entrapment not one of free will, otherwise how is it that we are all sinners?
Paul states in Romans 11:32 that we are only condemned so that god may grant us salvation. This is where Augustine gets his “O felix culpa.” Sin is a function of “gods” pleasure in granting us grace.
Free will is ultimately the believer’s justification for natural evil: evil must exist so that we might have the opportunity to choose. But the choice assumes the pre-existence of evil! Where did it come from if not god himself? Finally the problem is that our very nature often compels us in our choice anyway. It all makes little sense.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 25, 2010 - 10:18pm PT
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"Free will is ultimately the believer’s justification for natural evil: evil must exist so that we might have the opportunity to choose. But the choice assumes the pre-existence of evil! Where did it come from if not god himself? Finally the problem is that our very nature often compels us in our choice anyway. It all makes little sense."
If god is omnipotent and determines everything, how it is we are held culpable for anything at all? So that we might be held culpable something had to be introduced. Free will. The principal of omnipotence was formulated without forethought, in order to impress, The logical consequences were not grasped until someone asked a question.
Western theological structure, at least, is so riven with direct logical contradictions, one is forced to a frankly obvious conclusion. Our received structure was constructed by many unrelated people over a long period of time, each person responding to local exigencies. What to say to bring this or that village and that population under control? This is a command and control structure built by topsy. At all times, however, the words had to sound resonant. Or even unctious.
So we have a string of resonant words all unrelated to each other.
Karl uses a word connected to something elemental.
"This is a tough question and the only "JUSTICE" visible"...........
What is justice?
When we seek justice, what are we really seeking?
Vengeance?
Ex post facto victory?
What?
Almost five centuries before christ, Socrates had already identified the heart.
"Perfect Truth" is not the heart.
The question is everything.
Below Jan suggests that Eastern theology raises the question of balance and agreement. To what degree is our behavior in conflict with natural law.
Western theology attempts to paint things either "black" or "white." One side of an imaginary line(perfect truth) we draw in the sand.
Why this immense dichotomy?
If we had not taken the route dating from 0 AD but had instead further developed Socrates questions from five centuries before, might not our theology resemble Eastern thought much more closely?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 25, 2010 - 10:24pm PT
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jstan-
Free will is ultimately the believer’s justification for natural evil: evil must exist so that we might have the opportunity to choose. But the choice assumes the pre-existence of evil! Where did it come from if not god himself? Finally the problem is that our very nature often compels us in our choice anyway. It all makes little sense.
The best explanation I've heard for this again comes from India. If everything were good, there would only be God. In order to have a material universe, a negative element had to be added to hold it in existence. This negative element exists at many levels from the world of physics (think positive and negative charges on particles for example) to that of human beings.
The main way that it exists for human beings, is that they think the material world is all there is, and do not realize that it was created and penetrated with intelligence.They also mistake their own petty lives as a one time drama. Meanwhile, if the negative element should ever be suspended, the universe would instantly collapse and only God would remain.
If you remember from my Hindu posting, the universe is God's entertainment, and our job is to learn to live in harmony with natural and spiritual laws, but we have many lifetimes to do that. Definitely less grim than the western interpretation of this life being a one time testing ground.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 25, 2010 - 10:29pm PT
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Jstan wrote
Karl uses a word connected to something elemental.
"This is a tough question and the only "JUSTICE" visible"...........
What is justice?
When we seek justice, what are we really seeking?
Vengeance
In our criminal system, such may be the case. I think you are well aware that in this case, we are talking about figuring out the mechanics of why bad things seem to happen to good people and why.
There is a golden rule, treat people as we wish to be treated. It's more like a LAW because ultimately we WILL be treated as we treat people...there is just a time lag. Our souls know inside and we evolve and move forward in this process of experiencing the reflections of our past actions
Peace
Karl
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 25, 2010 - 10:44pm PT
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"From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist. "
Albert Einstein, letter to Guy H. Raner Jr, July 2, 1945
This does not prove that Einstein was an atheist, merely that according to the exacting dogmatic standards of a Jesuit priest (of the past at least; today they are often quite liberal) he would be so considered. This is my point exactly. Just because someone calling themselves Christian defines a person one way or the other, doesn't make it so. Whether one is an atheist or not is also between themselves and presumably God. Religionists have no business making judgements on behalf of God. In fact, didn't Jesus say just that, "Judge not lest ye be judged"?
Anyone that thinks Mark Twain was a deist needs to read his "Letters from Earth," a scathing analysis of Christianity in particular.
This is another of my points. People on this thread who are mad at Christianity, and it's hard not to be if you look at history or the fundamentalists' modern day attempts at taking over the teaching of science and U.S. civic life, are confusing certain interpretations of Christianity with anti religious and anti hypocrisy tendencies and outright atheism.
They are also making gross generalizations about Christianity. Real Orthodox Christianity (Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox) for example, and the second largest Christian denomination in the world by the way, see all of creation including sexuality as good, never accepted the Augustinian concept of original sin, and believe that God provides for everyone according to their experiences and understandings. The lack of belief in the western Christian world is seen as the fault of the western churches, not Christianity.
They also believe in a theory called theosis, the process of becoming like God and claim that many have attained it. The Asian equivalent of the word would be enlightenment.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 25, 2010 - 11:10pm PT
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Satan Allowed to Test Job
Job 1:6-12, Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” 8 And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” 9 Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason? 10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” 12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.
Jesus Foretells Peter's Denial
Luke 21:31-34, “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, 32 but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.” 33 Peter said to him, “Lord, I am ready to go with you both to prison and to death.” 34 Jesus said, “I tell you, Peter, the rooster will not crow this day, until you deny three times that you know me.”
1 John 4:4, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 26, 2010 - 03:27am PT
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"If you remember from my Hindu posting, the universe is God's entertainment, and our job is to learn to live in harmony with natural and spiritual laws, but we have many lifetimes to do that. Definitely less grim than the western interpretation of this life being a one time testing ground."
The plane of human misery and suffering is for god's entertainment? Some god! Best he find a new occupation. Look what he did for India! Walk through its poverty, its misery and disease, its crippling caste system and celebrate the liberation of its deities. Watch the old widows become suttee and the children become prostitutes or starve and you can celebrate the enlightenment of gurus who can only tell you to be like "me."
The east is no more enlightened than the west, in fact, considerably less so. There is no harmony in ignorance and foolishness.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 26, 2010 - 11:25am PT
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"The main way that it exists for human beings, is that they think the material world is all there is, and do not realize that it was created and penetrated with intelligence."
You know it is easy to feel this way but perhaps it is too easy? We are in our heads so we think everything is in our heads. When something comes that easily to hand you have to wonder if this is only anthropocentrism?
As to intelligence, I look around. If humans were a single organism, would that organism consider what we are doing to be intelligent?
I dare say not.
As to why the universe is, that question makes a huge assumption. That there is a reason. In middle school I learned in plane geometry( thank you Master Euclid) the first step in a proof is to get your axioms locked down. Never start a line of inquiry with a loose assumption. You will spend a thousand years and only become even more ignorant.
The first day we enter school we discover we do not know everything. Incomplete knowledge is a permanent fact of life, for everyone.
I have not a clue why it is some feel they must hold perfect knowledge in their hand. Simply on the face of it that is an absurd construct.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 26, 2010 - 12:05pm PT
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Paul wrote
The plane of human misery and suffering is for god's entertainment? Some god! Best he find a new occupation. Look what he did for India! Walk through its poverty, its misery and disease, its crippling caste system and celebrate the liberation of its deities. Watch the old widows become suttee and the children become prostitutes or starve and you can celebrate the enlightenment of gurus who can only tell you to be like "me."
Have you been to India? I'm there right now. I see and talk with poor and injured people here every day and you'd be surprised to find out that many seem happier than the average well-off person posting on supertopo! I'd be surprised if even the prostitutes of necessity are as negative on life as you are.
Is life really so bad Paul? If so, what are you doing here? You obviously don't believe there would be any consequences to ending it.
It's understandable that you don't understand why things are the way they are. At least folks in jail know how they got there while folks in the insane asylum might be confused why it's nuts in there.
Peace
Karl
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 26, 2010 - 12:37pm PT
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I'm not "negative on life." Human potential is nearly limitless, life is a sublime experience; I celebrate it everyday.
My point is that religion in all its permutations does much to limit us from that potential.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 26, 2010 - 01:18pm PT
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I see and talk with poor and injured people here every day and you'd be surprised to find out that many seem happier than the average well-off person posting on supertopo!
Well, how about a little test. If you offered those "prostitutes of necessity" or those "poor and injured people" the option of trading places with the average well-off supertopian, do you really believe they'd say "Hell no! I'm just so happy about having to f*#k strangers for pennies so that I can barely beat starvation, that I'd never trade my life for a professional job in Europe or North America"
Do you really believe that? I've never been to India, so I have no personal experience with the lives of the poor there, but I find it hard to believe that those who live in extreme poverty in India wouldn't trade places with the average Swede or Italian or American.
To assume that because people are making the best of a bad lot means they are somehow really happy that they're poor and/or disease-ridden is a leap of logic that is hard to justify. That they thank whatever deities they believe in for their painful circumstances is hard for me to accept.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 26, 2010 - 01:30pm PT
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Gosh Paul, it seems to me that over and over on this thread you have argued that the horrors of live are proof there is no God.
And yet you say such positive things about life in your last post.
The people who don't cling to life are rare indeed. Yeah, it's not the way we would most seem to enjoy it to be but it's funny. I bet there are a lot of poor villagers with disease and poverty who are more happy than Brittany Spears
Peace
Karl
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 26, 2010 - 01:57pm PT
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Again, my point is that theists have no way of reconciling the natural violence and "evil" found in this world with their belief in a compassionate proactive deity.
All religions are fundamentally nihilistic in this regard: all religions view the natural world flawed as a result of human action. Through the actions of Adam sin entered into the world and as a result God "Curse(d) the ground for thy sake."
Life is harsh, but it's beautiful: we are reconciled by that beauty. Humanity can mediate life's harshness through positive concrete actions not through the nihilism of outdated, tired myth.
Myth is only a temporary bandage for the wounded; it is the illusion that allows a comfortable exit into oblivion.
"Life is a tiger, grow some nuts, jump on its back and ride like hell!"
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jstan
climber
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Jan 26, 2010 - 03:28pm PT
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So happy--"that I'd never trade my life for a professional job in Europe or North America"
One evening I got a call from a lady in India. She offered to advise me on my finances.
So there is at least one person over there who would be willing to give up their happiness.
Happiness is a decision folks. Poor Indians decide to be happy because not being happy just makes a bad thing worse. Give them a chance to be happy here instead and guess what they'll do?
It's a pop quiz. Give you three minutes.
Time's up.
Edit for MH2's post stolen from George Carlin I think.
God has a plan. But he's not tellinggggggggggggggggg!
Wink wink
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MH2
climber
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Jan 26, 2010 - 04:15pm PT
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Hmmmm, Socrates or Werner, Werner or Socrates?
Socrates - there is no Absolute Truth, no one really knows what they think they know
Werner - there is Absolute Truth, at least one person does really know
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jstan
climber
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Jan 26, 2010 - 05:51pm PT
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Don't hold your breath, Wes.
You're not going to get that answer real soon.
Gobee should be up shortly.
Have you noticed his missives don't break the frame quite so much lately. I think it was the fantastic choral arrangments that were the problem
Progress!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 26, 2010 - 06:03pm PT
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Wes, I've asked that question several times, on various threads. Only one person (John Moosie) has made an honest try at answering it, and he (correct me if I'm wrong John) pretty much admitted that he couldn't explain it.
Everyone else I've asked has either ignored the question and gone on propounding his beliefs as if the elephant wasn't sitting in the corner, or, like Werner, given a smart-ass answer.
Unlike you, I've tried to be polite in my asking, making it clear that I'm willing to listen, willing to believe if any convincing evidence is produced. But like you, all I get is... Nothing.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 26, 2010 - 06:08pm PT
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David:
I would bet money that question was first written out in cuniform. One day someone digging around in a cave will pull that tablet out.
Perhaps another tablet with the answer will be found near by.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 26, 2010 - 06:34pm PT
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roehl -- "All religions are fundamentally nihilistic."
You don't know anything. You're a mental speculator. A guesser.
Always guessing. Maybe it's like this .... or that.
You're the guy in the desert crying for water, screaming for water, hoping for water, when all your words produce nothing but dry sand in your mouth ....
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2010 - 06:41pm PT
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Blind Faith were an English blues-rock band that consisted of Eric Clapton, Ginger Baker, Steve Winwood and Ric Grech. The band, which was one of the first "super-groups", released their only album, Blind Faith, in August 1969. They were stylistically similar to the bands in which Winwood, Baker, and Clapton had most recently participated, Traffic and Cream.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 26, 2010 - 07:20pm PT
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"You're the guy in the desert crying for water, screaming for water, hoping for water, when all your words produce nothing but dry sand in your mouth ...."
Ha Ha, I'll take dry sand over kool aid any
day...
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roadman
climber
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Jan 26, 2010 - 07:41pm PT
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"You're the guy in the desert crying for water, screaming for water, hoping for water, when all your words produce nothing but dry sand in your mouth ...."
Ha Ha, I'll take dry sand over kool aid any
day...
from one retard (werners word, who says that anymore?) to another that's f---ing funny!!!! ha ha ha bah ha ha!!!!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 26, 2010 - 07:55pm PT
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weschrist!
He only promises one thing "eternal life!" see John 3:16!
I suppose you could line up at east a million people on this planet and they would all request that Jesus do this or that, or didn't do this or that. Or come up with some tale, real, fabricated, or hypothetical in which some person that I know when...
Check your own heart Wes, where does this bitterness come from? It is from your spirit and the "spirit of this world' that feeds it. It is out to destroy you Wes. It is eating your soul, and when it is finished with you...Eternity waits.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 26, 2010 - 08:00pm PT
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Weschrist, your friend getting raped repeatedly as a child, is so sad and sick, there's is just no excuse for that, and that is absolutely not her fault at all! That guy deserves God's wrath! God didn't do that or want that to happen to her or would it enter His mind such atrocities! That is pure sin, God can't sin!
Proverbs 27:1, Do not boast about tomorrow,
for you do not know what a day may bring.
The Lord Is My Light and My Salvation
Of David.
Psalm 27, The Lord is my light and my salvation;
whom shall I fear?
The Lord is the stronghold of my life;
of whom shall I be afraid?
2 When evildoers assail me
to eat up my flesh,
my adversaries and foes,
it is they who stumble and fall.
3 Though an army encamp against me,
my heart shall not fear;
though war arise against me,
yet I will be confident.
4 One thing have I asked of the Lord,
that will I seek after:
that I may dwell in the house of the Lord
all the days of my life,
to gaze upon the beauty of the Lord
and to inquire in his temple.
5 For he will hide me in his shelter
in the day of trouble;
he will conceal me under the cover of his tent;
he will lift me high upon a rock.
6 And now my head shall be lifted up
above my enemies all around me,
and I will offer in his tent
sacrifices with shouts of joy;
I will sing and make melody to the Lord.
7 Hear, O Lord, when I cry aloud;
be gracious to me and answer me!
8 You have said, “Seek my face.”
My heart says to you,
“Your face, Lord, do I seek.”
9 Hide not your face from me.
Turn not your servant away in anger,
O you who have been my help.
Cast me not off; forsake me not,
O God of my salvation!
10 For my father and my mother have forsaken me,
but the Lord will take me in.
11 Teach me your way, O Lord,
and lead me on a level path
because of my enemies.
12 Give me not up to the will of my adversaries;
for false witnesses have risen against me,
and they breathe out violence.
13 I believe that I shall look upon the goodness of the Lord
in the land of the living!
14 Wait for the Lord;
be strong, and let your heart take courage;
wait for the Lord!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 26, 2010 - 08:05pm PT
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Eternity waits.
And in the meantime, Wes is also waiting.
You may wonder at his bitterness, but his question is still a reasonable one, if crudely put.
You prayed to Jesus/God to save you from death at the hands of a madman, and feel that your prayer was answered. Fair enough. But how do you explain Jesus/God's refusal to answer another kid's prayer? Or the prayers of 110,000 in Haiti? Or millions around the world? Or hundreds of millions who have been tortured/murdered/raped during the time humans have been on God's world?
It's not a silly question, and I don't think it's disrespectful to ask.
If it's asked politely, I think it is disrespectful not to answer.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 26, 2010 - 08:35pm PT
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I answered the question a couple pages back near the end of the thread.
Peace
Karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 26, 2010 - 08:41pm PT
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Ghost- "If it's asked politely..."
Maybe like this as per weschrist..."with the audacity of people like 777, gumbee, and many religious fuknards etc., etc,etc,etc,etc,etc,etc,etc, for the last 6 months. Cursing and defiling the name of our Lord, putting words into our mouths that we would never say or believe such as this one from weschrist "Getting raped repeatedly can be attributed to 2)not being worthy of Jesus friendship." WHAT????? How many times do we have to quote John 3:16 "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever..." And state that He will take ANYONE! Just the way YOU are.
Have YOU asked Him Ghost?
Have YOU asked Him Wes?
We have gone over and over these same questions here.
You don't believe or except the answers.
You don't even believe He exists. It is not my job to prove or disprove anything!
I fulfilled my commission away back there when I told you what Jesus did for ME, yes at 8 yrs. old!
If you don't believe ME...FINE.
Ask Jesus Christ yourself when YOU meet HIM what happened to your real, imaginary, or hypothetical friend!
Why kids die along with everyone else is for Him to answer. I will grieve with my friends and the rest of the world until I see those very kids in Heaven. And I will rejoice now knowing that He takes children with Him to Heaven. Why? I do not have all the answers! Maybe He prefers to take them, rather than have them go through life and suffer all the HELL I have here on earth these last 50+ years.
Many a day and long night I have asked Him that very Question!
Why would He leave a pathetic wretch like me here, and take someone like Tobin home so soon? Go figure...but I am glad He did. Like my brother told me when I asked him the same question years ago "Maybe He is not finished with you yet!"
Evidently not.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 26, 2010 - 08:43pm PT
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Christians through the century's have been kill for their faith! Man's inhumanity to man is evil no matter how and to whom it happens! The bible say's that this is a fallen world apart from God will, with the devil doing his worst! But natural disasters have horrible consequences, we live in the real world, and anyone of us could be gone today! As Christians are hope is in God and Jesus!
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 26, 2010 - 08:44pm PT
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Ghost -- " ...... God's world?"
This material manifestation is actually created by YOU for YOU.
Just as a prison has been created by your own self.
God builds the prison for the rebellious souls.
All you people keep blaming God for everything.
It's your fault not his.
That's why I keep saying you guys are all mental speculators and guessers.
YOU DON"T KNOW.
So learn .........
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 26, 2010 - 08:53pm PT
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Locker -- "Is it even possible???..."
You got it right.
The answers these guys are asking are far too complex to answer on an internet forum.
Everyone wants cheap and easy route, with no work.
All rascals ........
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 26, 2010 - 09:57pm PT
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The sacred cow says "Moo."
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roadman
climber
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Jan 26, 2010 - 10:34pm PT
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So learn .........
fool! Fooling yourself chump. yank it a little more and let's see what you squirt out next....
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jstan
climber
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Jan 26, 2010 - 11:15pm PT
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“If your heart is HARD, you will NOT allow God to draw near to you.”
That's a tough word but an interesting use of anatomy. Perhaps this medium can be useful.
Shall we try?
Believers think our hearts are hard.
We non-believers suspect your heads are soft.
Someone who stares at just one book and wears a robe telling me how to vote, for reasons at which I can only guess?
Please explain why you want this?
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jstan
climber
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Jan 26, 2010 - 11:23pm PT
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So how do you feel about the fundamentalist churches, complete with tax exemptions, taking sides in political campaigns?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 26, 2010 - 11:38pm PT
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Except when he's busy killing everything in sight.
Bipolar bugger that he is.
If he really was.
Which he's not.
G'night, all.
Eternity waits.
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roadman
climber
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Jan 27, 2010 - 01:13am PT
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cintune, You clearly have no concept of the heart of God.
Your rants are inane and reek of hate.
Dude don't you mean "heart of gold" that's more like it with all the bull sh#t ornamental stuff that you;ll worship.
You guys need to pull your heads out. Study up on the history of how your religion came about. It's got a very well beaten path from above the bulkans montheistic ideas spread etc.....
"reek of hate" that's a good one... you should put that on a tee shirt! ha
so much BS no concept? no concept? do you really think that dude has no concept of Love? that's the f*#king heart of your god right? he knows love dude so pull your head out.
What;s the deal with the dude who posts all the scrips!!!??? I mean really?
Really in the game of life it's all about finding the peace in you. Ya know? I think that us folks here on this rantathon.... are all doing just fine... and the poor broke ass folks out there to busy workin', scrapin just to put food on the table those folks.......pray to god everynight there kids will have a better life than them.
I digress. Funny that the only thing I care about is the integrity of science and the teaching of the foundations of it so that we can continue to allow people to discover the wonders of nature in there purest! Really I think it's just dandy that folks pray to a dude in the sky or wherever? I'd personly think that you'd want someone in the dirt/earth seems to me I'd make my story up with some cool dude who's cool and kind and loving and lives in this majical place called Yosemite.... a place so grand and aeswome that once you see it you know then and there that you are in heven or dam close.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 27, 2010 - 01:34am PT
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777, Wes may have asked rudely, but I have asked politely many times, and only one person has bothered to answer seriously, and his answer was "I don't know." Most others just dodge the question or give "clever" (Werner) answers that are insulting and without meaning.
I don't doubt you, I don't hate you or disrespect you. I'm not trying to make fun of you. I don't want to change your beliefs. But there is a fundamental problem with religion that I have never been able to resolve, no matter how I approach it, so I ask...
If God is capable of creating the entire universe, and so loving that he gave his only begotten son, then what am I to think when a serial killer tortures a child for days? Or when an earthquake kills over 100,000 in Haiti (with many of them taking days to die)? Or...
But no one here ever answers. Except John Moosie who said he didn't know, and Werner who tells me I'm to stupid to understand.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 27, 2010 - 02:47am PT
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Ghost- "There is a fundamental problem with religion that I have never been able to resolve..."
I here ya Ghost. The Israelites and every other religion before and after them has had the same questions. And that's why God sent his Son, and His Son said that He would send His Spirit to us. Began at Pentecost, they had locked themselves in the upper room, in fear...
Listen, it is not religion that God desires you to join etc. It is a personal relationship. Man had it as perfect as it could be in the Garden of Eden, and he chose self. Just as Satan did, "I will be like the most high"
Satan to Eve, "Surely you won't die, you will be like the most high."
God didn't destroy Satan because then all the remaining angels would have served Him out of fear, not love.
Likewise with Adam and Eve. God desires to be loved. Not to much to be asked.
"To know Him is to love Him." I can testify to this.
He won't force you to know Him. Kind of defeats the whole thing.
When man fell, and we all would have done likewise(does He have to take you back and have you and every individual go through the G. of E. experience?) No. Look at your own life/heart, the world. Look at kids from a young age...don't touch that.
What was delegated/given to man(the world)was by man given to Satan...
It is late and this has all been covered by myself and the other Christians/posters here over the last 6 or so months Ghost.
Like I was saying it is about a relationship, between you and Jesus Christ, ask Him if He is who He said/says He is that you want to know Him. Ask Him into your heart. That is all the faith it takes. An honest question with an honest promise. He will show you. He is very capable of it.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 27, 2010 - 02:49am PT
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Ghost all the answers have been given.
Still you insist on blaming God himself for all your faults.
That's insulting onto him.
You want everything handed to you on a nice platter, the way you want it.
Doesn't work that way.
Will you clean the toilet for 108 years before you get a reply?
A bonafide seeker will do just that for 10,000 years.
The non bonafide seeker will just bitch and moan and leave.
That's why a real master is so rare .......
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 27, 2010 - 03:01am PT
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Ghost- "Earthquakes...serial rapist."
I just gave the best short answer I have to you and wes up thread. And like I/we said we don't have all the answers.
I was fortunate to come to know Him at a young age. He did choose to intervene in my case and I walked away from a serial killer(according to his son and daughters).
If I had gotten to the age of eighteen without that experience, I would have probably been much like many of the atheist/agnostics that post here. It was grace that saved a wretch like me. Plain and simple. After all that God has revealed to me over the years, and as much as I have denied/failed to obey Him, it is a miracle that I even exist.
And like I said, I don't know all the answers...I do know Him and how much He loves and grieves for the lost.
EDIT: I wish I would have spent more time following Him, rather than my own selfish desires. Then maybe I would have the answers to the questions you ask Ghost.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 27, 2010 - 03:56am PT
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If God is capable of creating the entire universe, and so loving that he gave his only begotten son, then what am I to think when a serial killer tortures a child for days? Or when an earthquake kills over 100,000 in Haiti (with many of them taking days to die)? Or...
Ghost, I am sure you are aware that this question has been considered by deeply religious yet at the same time highly intelligent theologians. If you are looking for a good answer on ST you may be out of luck, but reasonable answers do exist.
The question was addressed quite early in the excellent guide Catholicism for Dummies. The gist was that free will is important to God, therefore people have choice in how they behave, and some choose to behave badly. Does that not partly answer your question?
I think the larger question is usually addressed more or less as Karl did, by saying that the purposes of God will never be fully understood by mere humans. A scale problem. We can't see the big picture. Something like, as jstan found somewhere, that without earthquakes life might not be possible on Earth.
The guy who wrote The Probability that God Exists agreed that natural disasters are strong evidence against what he called "a personal caring God who listens to and answers prayers."
I agree, too.
I am sure the Catholic Church has a position on the issue but don't know what it is.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 27, 2010 - 04:09am PT
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Oh, "free will" is being recycled again. That explains the death of a 5 month old child crushed by the rubble of a collapsed building? I'm always fascinated by how that works. I'm sure Werner will claim they made bad choices in a previous life, but that really doesn't work from the christian side of things. With no bad choices carried forward from past lives it's just a 5 month old kid crushed under a building for what reason? This is exactly where the whole free will argument collapses as well. Free will, gods' will - or maybe sh#t just happens. Maybe plate tectonics just happen in the nature of planets like ours. Maybe a 100k people just died for no reason of their own whatsoever.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 27, 2010 - 04:15am PT
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Free will has no plausible connection I know of with natural disasters, only with man's inhumanity to man.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 27, 2010 - 04:53am PT
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So if it wasn't 'free will' that killed the kid, then what is god's responsibility in the matter? None? Idle bystander? Jester? Just flipping channels at a bad time? If the kid didn't die due 'free will' (in this life or any other) or some aspect of living in the universe that god 'delegated' to man, then isn't it still on god? And if so, for what purpose? Or is this where men simply retreat to "god works in mysterious ways"?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 27, 2010 - 06:39am PT
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As a sequel to the review of a book by Barbara Smith discussing the debate on religion and science which was published in the New York times last week and noted on this thread by Ed, the author of the book has published a reply to the many comments given on the NYT web page.
One of the author's comments was this:
"This tendency to belief-persistence is well illustrated in the back-and-forth celebratory descriptions of science and pious invocations of the truth of one or another religion that swell the comments on Fish’s column. Such celebrations and invocations are typically accompanied by long lists of the crimes of religion and the glories of science or (in equally long lists) vice versa. What is notable here is that no position in these seesaw exchanges is ever changed. No one is enlightened; no one is converted".
http://community.nytimes.com/comments/opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/25/science-and-religion-lives-and-rocks/?sort=oldest&offset=2
Sound familiar? So will most of the comments if you read through them though they are considerably more intellectual and New Yorkish than those appearing on this thread.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 27, 2010 - 07:22am PT
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I guess it's all a matter of, and difference in, just what your beliefs are founded upon.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 27, 2010 - 11:12am PT
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I've only read the last couple pages in this very long thread. As far as I'm concerned they speak to the fact that Americans are as theologically illiterate as they are scientifically illiterate.
Ghost- what's your background in science and engineering? I ask because they're the best tools for building yourself models for (a) how the world works and (b) how life works.
They're your tools for "what is" in terms of facts. There are two other components to a modern belief system. "What matters" and "what works". They're up to you to figure out and work into models that work for you.
What is your aim, interest? If you're soul searching, what is it you seek? (I don't think your aim is just to argue endlessly with Christians or Muslims most of whom are so theologically illiterate they don't even know or care that their God Jehovah or Yahweh was a local God like Zeus or Marduk and just as false.)
WBraun I learned from another thread is just a bag of hot air-- at least in regard to science, engineering, philosophy, etc. -- so don't give him any mind on these matters. Don't know about the rest.
The people who throw out terms like god, spirit, free will, belief, faith and don't explain to others what they mean by their use will argue in circles forever. Don't get stuck in it. Move on.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 27, 2010 - 12:33pm PT
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No one does ever change their mind. That, I think, was never the intention of this thread. The intention of this thread was that we change our behavior.
We need, to the extent possible, to be able to conduct our personal lives unaffected by the personal belief systems of others. I think those following some of the belief systems voiced here, do not agree with this.
In other parts of the world people having different personal belief systems have in the very recent past been going out every night to kill "the others."
How dramatic does this problem have to become before we decide it is serious enough to cause us to change our behavior?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 27, 2010 - 12:55pm PT
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It is late and this has all been covered by myself and the other Christians-posters here over the last 6 or so months Ghost.
Well, no, it hasn't all been covered. Leaving aside the usual internet forum nastiness, there has been some interesting discussion here, but the question I asked above has not been carefully addressed. It's been asked, by me and others, but as far as I know, no one has addressed it head on. So I thought I'd give it one last try.
As Andy said, the subject has been considered over the centuries by highly intelligent theologians. I've read much of that consideration, but never yet seen a convincing argument for worshipping a god who would allow a child to be tortured. Note that this is not the same thing as saying "There is no god" or "all spirituality is nonsense" or "Christians suck." Merely that I find it repugnant for any being -- human or godly -- to willingly allow innocents to suffer. And to say "Well, we humans aren't capable of understanding the ways of God, so just worship Jesus and don't worry about the kid dying under the rubble" is, to me, a complete cop-out.
However, contrary to Werner's assertions, my mind is open. So I thought I'd ask the question here. I know we're just a bunch of smelly climbers, not "highly intelligent theologians" but maybe that wouldn't matter. Maybe someone here would have something new to say.
But it appears not. Thanks anyway to those of you who gave it a shot -- both for trying, and for being civil.
I'm off to post pictures in the "Routes at Index" thread.
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Jan 27, 2010 - 12:58pm PT
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"Seems like everywhere I go,
the more I see the less I know,
but I know one thing that I love you."
Michael Franti
We know some things in our heart that don't make sense to our head, because our head doesn't have all of the information that it needs.
We see that it's grey.
"It's a mouse!"
"No, it's an elephant!"
This is our condition, that we've created(?)
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 27, 2010 - 01:32pm PT
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"Intelligent (Abrahamic) theology" in the 21st century is a contradiction of terms. Traditional theology is now a "discredited discipline" in institutions of higher learning. Religions and their conceptual foundation (theology) are no longer "institutions of higher learning." That they are not speaks volumes.
What Cragman posted above is narrative-- it is story-- it is not reality. It is not a true representation for how the world works or how life works. For that, turn to the science model.
Teaching one's kids that the Christian "narrative" is more than story, that it is an authentic representation for "how the world works" is child abuse. That is the stance emerging among the educated. Mine, too.
According to the traditional Christian narrative, (a) this world is a three-layer cake (heaven, earth, hell), (b) a ghost inhabits the living organism. This is bronze-age ignorance. Bronze-age ingorance that over centuries was weaved into story and institution. Don't fall for it. Challenge yourself to see beyond it.
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Jan 27, 2010 - 01:36pm PT
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Weschrist, I see and hear those same people, and feel like they're just living their lives to the best of their abilities. I don't feel that I have any bitterness in me that comes from them.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 27, 2010 - 02:07pm PT
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It's the business about the apple, David.
Apparently god has, himself, not yet gotten forgiveness down pat.
God has, even now, not forgiven Adam and Eve.(added for clarity)
It really is amazing. How hard it is to construct something that has no logical flaws. The apple construct can be nullified simply by asking why god can't forgive.
It's the questions. We just cannot be allowed to ask questions.
Obedience has to be at the very heart of any belief system.
Obedience is irrelevant in the real(material) world. I can do anything I want. I just need to be ready to pay the consequences.
Ghost asked why the Haitians had to be crushed under concrete. I do not "know." Nor do I "believe" I know. Here's a hypothesis though.
Ardi suggests during its evolution homo sapiens first lost their large canines and then stood upright. As a result we could neither run very fast nor could we fight back. A lot of us got eaten so we had not only to be able to reproduce rapidly but we had to want to reproduce - a lot. A whole lot. It was the sabre tooth tiger that made Marilyn Monroe and even Sarah Palin possible. The Haitians were crushed under concrete because they have reproduced so profusely that they cannot afford rebar. The best we could have done to make this not happen would have been to travel to Haiti every weekend with 100 pounds of condoms in our suitcases. Maybe even have taken some rebar along with us. The US government had a program to help disseminate family planning. But some guy who claimed he talked to god killed the program.
So there you go.
We have a witness telling us god intended these people to die like that.
Quite some time ago I suggested one of two possibilities may be true if a god actually exists.
God has no power on earth or
God isn't very nice.
Since we have never gotten any proof that god has power to do anything on earth, I have felt if god exists, he probably can do things only in heaven.
If George Bush, who killed family planning, actually was talking to god, as have some others on this thread, I will be forced to consider more seriously the second possibility.
Now the really really serious question. We have a hypothesis as to what made Sarah Palin possible.
Are we ready to approach the question of what it is that made her necessary?
Edit:
777 tells me below Adam and Eve have been forgiven.
So "Original Sin" is now gone!
Wonderful. So as long as I behave well I don't need to believe in god. I can go directly to heaven.
Does this also mean Ratzinger has reconsidered and has now affirmed Pope John's apologeia for the punishment of Galileo?
If god has forgiven Adam and Eve surely we, finally, can release Galileo from house arrest?
I wonder. Is it ridicule to ask that Galileo receive justice? Is it ridicule to ask what it is that actually can be done to keep people from being crushed?
Is it ridicule to ask a question?
It would seem so.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 27, 2010 - 02:36pm PT
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jstan- "Why can't god forgive?"
God has forgiven. Read John 3:16-17.
You reject His forgiveness, John.
He would never force you to accept His forgiveness.
Your choice, John.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 27, 2010 - 05:23pm PT
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cintune, You clearly have no concept of the heart of God.
Your rants are inane and reek of hate.
In spite of the hate, foulness, and ridicule spewed by many on this thread, I still find myself feeling sorry for you.
Good luck with your choices.
That's just precious. We feel sorry for you too. Let's all feel sorry for each other.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 27, 2010 - 05:44pm PT
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I suggest we all take a time out
and watch a most excellent documentary.
Nietzsche and the Nazis
It's very good. How did I ever miss it?
Available at netflix. Check it out.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 27, 2010 - 05:51pm PT
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My short term memory is unreliable but as I remember Mr. Cragman travels to Central America so that he might help the people there gain decent housing.
Without a doubt, anyone who does that has a good heart. He may be a poor shot at driving rebar into the ground, but he has a good heart. I would not be nearly as perturbed as I am if he had a bad heart.
The problem is he could be more helpful to Central Americans if he had the freedom to think for himself. I was not kidding when I said people can sometimes be in more need of condoms and rebar than they are of scripture readings. The Neanderthal were able to bring down mastadons using wooden sticks, simply because they were able to work together.
It's a shame we have lost that ability.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 27, 2010 - 07:01pm PT
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That's projecting and demonizing.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 27, 2010 - 07:31pm PT
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You can help them more. If the kids do not have good schools teach them the three R's in the evening. If you can get them up to algebra you may find a genius.
My best,
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 27, 2010 - 07:56pm PT
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Ghost,"If God is capable of creating the entire universe, and so loving that he gave his only begotten son, then what am I to think when a serial killer tortures a child for days? Or when an earthquake kills over 100,000 in Haiti (with many of them taking days to die)?"
If you do good or bad, you did it, same with the serial killer! God tells us to do good!
The physical world is dynamic not static, the mountains can be rising (like Mt. Everest) and crumbling, I've been in Yosemite during big rock fall! I lived through the Los Angeles '71 and '94 earthquakes and were sure to have another! In the Haiti quake, most the deaths happened because their man made buildings fell down! But many nations are trying to help! We always have bad fire seasons, mostly caused by man! I love Hawaii, but it's a volcano, it could blow? I don't blame God for these natural occurrences they happen! Heck, were on a big ball flying around in space, think about it! If we were weightless on earth there would be no Supertopo, because who would care to go climbing? If you freesolo and fall...If you step in front of a speeding car...the world can kill you, but God is not chasing you down to harm you, He's chasing you down to love you!
Proverbs 28:1, The wicked flee when no one pursues,
but the righteous are bold as a lion.
The Lord Is My Strength and My Shield
Of David.
Psalm 28, To you, O Lord, I call;
my rock, be not deaf to me,
lest, if you be silent to me,
I become like those who go down to the pit.
2 Hear the voice of my pleas for mercy,
when I cry to you for help,
when I lift up my hands
toward your most holy sanctuary.
3 Do not drag me off with the wicked,
with the workers of evil,
who speak peace with their neighbors
while evil is in their hearts.
4 Give to them according to their work
and according to the evil of their deeds;
give to them according to the work of their hands;
render them their due reward.
5 Because they do not regard the works of the Lord
or the work of his hands,
he will tear them down and build them up no more.
6 Blessed be the Lord!
For he has heard the voice of my pleas for mercy.
7 The Lord is my strength and my shield;
in him my heart trusts, and I am helped;
my heart exults,
and with my song I give thanks to him.
8 The Lord is the strength of his people;
he is the saving refuge of his anointed.
9 Oh, save your people and bless your heritage!
Be their shepherd and carry them forever.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 28, 2010 - 12:33am PT
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The reason no one can come to a conclusion or change their mind after 5,500 posts is that we were never discussing the same thing anyway. The science people are arguing from left brain logic and the religious people are arguing from intuition and emotion. Some people prefer physics and some people prefer poetry. Seldom do you hear a physicist screaming that poetry is stupid and all poets are retards. Likewise, poets don't normally shout at physicists that they're inferior because they prefer math over words. They keep to their own respective preferences.
When poets leave physicists alone and vice versa, there is no communication, but also no controversy. Why this should be has a lot to do with history. Physicists have not persecuted poets and vice versa because neither one of them have had any particular political power. Had either of them waged wars or inquisitions, their feelings would be different.
Absent any such past history, the other major cause of disagreement would be when they infringe on each other's field of expertise. Neither are in any position to evaluate the merits of the work of the other. They can state their taste in physics explanations or poetry, but they can not critique from a professional insider's point of view. If they're smart, they know their limitations.
Once we enter into a science versus religious argument however, everyone becomes antagonistic because of history, because of ongoing power struggles, and because everyone involved seems to think they know more about the expertise of the other than they actually do. They also delight it seems, in provoking each other in games of gotcha as they seek to establish their own knowledge as superior - we are logical vs we are saved.
How could we avoid such battles?
-don't use provocative language starting with the titles of threads
-don't argue on the basis of personal insults
-don't argue at all (scientists have their own thread and religious people their own and spiritual people who are not religious their own)
-religious people stay out of the science curriculum of our schools and the dispensing of birth control
-scientists stop thinking that logic can solve every human problem and is the only thing necessary to life for an intelligent person.
-religious people work on their intellect more (especially their knowledge of science and history) and science people work on opening their hearts and pocketbooks more to those less fortunate.
-both sides be aware that this is a peculiarly American argument at this point in history and not particularly conducive to solving any of our many national problems
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MH2
climber
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Jan 28, 2010 - 04:12am PT
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What Jan said, more or less.
Without naming names or quoting, I will say I have noticed an occasional poster saying that the questions we consider here go round and round and little to no progress has been seen for hundreds or thousands of years.
I see it differently. Developments from the idea of evolution have provided excellent explanations of why we find what we find in the biological world, displacing a lot of earlier mystical and religious attempts to answer questions. Cosmology has done a similar job more recently for the physical world, providing a coherent, consistent, though not complete explanantion of how the entire universe came to be.
Anyone who thinks religion and science are in a stand-off is ignoring the inroads on religious dogma that have been made by evolution and cosmology.
But, as Jan says, there is no battle between science and religion when they have no claim on the same territory. When religion promotes helping your fellow man, as it often does, science and reason have no quarrel with it.
At the same time, it is hard to ignore the harm that certain kinds of religious belief continue to do.
a link to a podcast featuring A.C. Grayling:
http://www.podcastdirectory.com/podcasts/33624
addendum
from Jan:
-scientists stop thinking that logic can solve every human problem and is the only thing necessary to life for an intelligent person.
I think that scientists might promote reason as an approach to problem-solving, but not logic. Logic is not what Spock uses. Logic is deductive or inductive and needs pretty restrictive premises to get anywhere and no one uses real Logic in daily life unless they are teachers of Mathematical Logic (perhaps the world's least understood field), or philosophers and who cares what they do? As one of the old-timers demonstrated, logic can't even solve its own problems, at least not all of them, let alone a human problem.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 28, 2010 - 07:56am PT
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We don't see scientists running into churches and insisting that their areas of expertise be worked into the sermon. That is the original point of this thread. Creationism is a political agenda to introduce thinly-veiled religious dogma into science classrooms in the public schools. Norton's excellently provocative title stirred up the religiously-inclined posters here, who immediately started changing the subject to the ethical merits of their faith, and of course the non-believers couldn't let that go either.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 28, 2010 - 11:01am PT
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If both Science and Religion agree there is such a think as Love
Where is the scale with which we test and measure it?
I'm skeptical of any limited concepts of what God "Wants" or "Did"
But I'm comfortable offering my Life a the feet of Love
and I have Faith that opening to Love brings in the Light
A light that erases doubt about the existence of Spirit, and any question of judgement or damnation. The Love Light shines but we close our eyes in fear. The Fear projects judgement and Damnation. Love embraces and integrates unconditionally.
Know where your Heart is at. Forgive everything that divides you from feeling unified and present in your heart.
Then the question of God will never arise.
Peace
Karl
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jan 28, 2010 - 11:40am PT
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"...and the religious people are arguing from intuition and emotion"
That's B.S.
The science people have emotion and have intuition. My intuition tells me there is no God. Your intuition tells you that there is a God. We do not think differently. We just think different thoughts. Our thought difference comes from our environment, training by our parents and peers, and a bit of built-in instinct for self-preservation. Oh, and of course God talks to some of you from the back seat of your car to help you avoid accidents. That also affects some of your thoughts.
Dave
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 28, 2010 - 12:59pm PT
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You can't. Time to move on!
It's time we stopped arguing.
It's time we built for ourselves a science-based belief system.
Yeah, a science-based belief system that covers:
(a) how the world works, (b) how life works, (c) how humans ought to live.
Who's ready. Let's go for it!
Edit:
I know, we'll call these new models "superduction".
Then we'll let the ol'time religions and modern superductions compete in the marketplace of ideas and beliefs.
Just like horse n buggies and horseless carriages competed.
And we'll do all this in the interest of better living.
May the best belief system win!
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 28, 2010 - 01:49pm PT
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May the best belief system win!
Stupid system ever.
Belief means ultimately speculation. Means you ultimately you don't know.
If everyone believes there's a giraffe behind the building and there never is one then what kind of stupid system is that.
Bonafide absolute truth is the only applicable system that will ultimately work.
Summon Bonum
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 28, 2010 - 01:53pm PT
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No silly. Speculation means speculation. To speculate means to speculate.
To "believe" means to "hold" in one's mind. Straight-forward as that.
Only ol' time religious framing makes a mess of it. Of language that is.
When I say, I "believe" my half-inch rope will hold me on take 300' above deck, it means I hold in it, I trust in it. And this is based on education and experience.
Sorry, Brawny...
Face it, you just can't give up your archaic "ghost in the machine" idea, belief. You're too heavily invested in it. Advice: Spend your limited energies adapting to-- not fighting-- the truth as revealed by science edu.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 28, 2010 - 01:55pm PT
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Yes hold your speculation pertaining to your; "May the best belief system win!"
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 28, 2010 - 02:04pm PT
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Secular humanism is so 19th century, so kludgy and overwrought.
The difference between secular humanism and what I have in mind (a modern "superduction") is the difference between lightning and the lightening bug. It's the difference between 15th century philosophy as a discipline and 21st century engineering as a discipline.
What, don't believe. Wait and see. It's right around the corner! Keep the faith.
Oh, and reframe it! Secular humanism doesn't lead to despair. Nature's seamy if not sleazy side leads to despair. So we need a "modern superduction" or "modern spiritual discipline" to help us deal with it. Religion as an "early model" belief discipline made attempts to deal with it through fantasy.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 28, 2010 - 02:27pm PT
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Religion is secretarian.
Summon Bonum, Absolute Truth, exists eternally always as, past, present and in the future.
Manufacturing a system by man is ultimately defective.
A condition human being is infected with the four defects.
1) Is sure to commit mistakes
2) Is invariably illusioned
3) Has the tendency to cheat others
4) Is limited by imperfect senses.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 28, 2010 - 02:35pm PT
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Weak, Brawny!
I thought all real Climbers ascribed to (and believed in) the adage, Attitude is Everything. So what kind of attitude is that?!
With that kind of attitude, would we ever had fashioned a vehicle to put humanity on the moon? or to take wing in the skies? Or to create a small pox vaccine? C'mon, adapt!
"Manufactured" belief disciplines would be merely models (mental tools) to help us in the course of living. Right now we really don't have them. Yet. In large part because so many are only thinking (and believing!) in terms of religions and theologies.
re: "has the tendency to cheat others" Exactly. Which is all the more reason we need life guidance in this area. And a new kind of believer to commit to "living up to" the challenge of not cheating others. In fact, all four of your points (a product of natural selection and life's seamy side you could say) is exactly why we need a new kind of belief system that promotes life strategies to deal with these. And a new kind of believer to commit "living up to" them.
EDIT Cragman, cute.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 28, 2010 - 02:42pm PT
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Manufactured" belief disciplines would be merely models (mental tools) to help us in the course of living.
Is this not the very definition of religion?
And aren't you then simply proposing to create your own religion as opposed to those that already exist?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 28, 2010 - 02:45pm PT
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This is exactly part of the problem, Jan. As part of the process, we need some new terminology, some new language. So we can get traction in this area and not get bogged down by all the weight of antiquated beliefs, antiquated framing, antiquated thinking. "Religions" to too many (myself included) suggests supernaturalist belief, supernaturalist doctrines in regard to "how the world works" and so they don't want to use that word and contribute to the miscommunication.
It's a simple matter to distinguish between theological "belief disciplines" (e.g., religions that rely on supernaturalist belief) and let's call them science-based belief disciplines. It is, really!, it just takes some getting used to. And as I said above, for sake of this thread at least, we might call them superduction systems as opposed to religion systems. So a science-based belief discipline and a superduction would be synonomous.
Well, I better get back to my op amps and switching power supply project...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 28, 2010 - 04:24pm PT
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Yeah, no doubt any modern spiritual faith discipline model (science-based of course) would feature components to cover "what matters" and "what works" in addition to "what is."
A part of these would include the golden rule, looking after the unfortunate, and the development and use of cooperative win-win strategies in the "practice" of living. Please note: Noble pursuits like these require not one nanogram of supernaturalist belief left over from the bronze age and institutionalized by supernaturalists. That's cool!
EDIT
What is... in terms of real world facts.
What matters... to the living organism known as human.
What works... in regard to life strategies that lead to better living.
There are the grounds for a basic blueprint right there.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jan 28, 2010 - 04:40pm PT
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I'm with HFCS!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 28, 2010 - 05:04pm PT
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Ha, thanks Eeyonkee! That prompted me to read your last four posts. Among them:
"Got Richard Dawkins newest book, The Greatest Show on Earth, for Christmas. It's not his best book (I've read them all), but it's the first where he takes on all of the criticisms of evolution and presents the overwhelming evidence for it. And it IS overwhelming. So overwhelming that any refutation can only be of the I'm going to take the leap of faith and believe in the bible instead type. This type of believer is on par with with Muslim fundamentalists, in my opinion."
Me thinks when you're out the High Sierra way, we should get a few climbs in together. A little esprit de corps!
So who else do you know on this Taco that's open to bringing a little innovation and modernity to spiritual belief discipline practice and giving archaic supernaturalist doctrines the boot? All in the interest of higher achievement in the "practice" of living of course. (As I'm a virgin to this thread and don't know the characters... I mean besides Brawny and Cragman.)
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jstan
climber
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Jan 28, 2010 - 05:08pm PT
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The original split between Sunnis and Shia occurred soon after the death of the Prophet Muhammad, in the year 632.
"There was a dispute in the community of Muslims in present-day Saudi Arabia over the question of succession," says Augustus Norton, author of Hezbollah: A Short History. "That is to say, who is the rightful successor to the Prophet?"
Most of the Prophet Muhammad's followers wanted the community of Muslims to determine who would succeed him. A smaller group thought that someone from his family should take up his mantle. They favored Ali, who was married to Muhammad's daughter, Fatimah.
"Shia believed that leadership should stay within the family of the Prophet," notes Gregory Gause,professor of Middle East politics at the University of Vermont. "And thus they were the partisans of Ali, his cousin and son-in-law. Sunnis believed that leadership should fall to the person who was deemed by the elite of the community to be best able to lead the community.
And it was fundamentally that political division that began the Sunni-Shia split."
The Sunnis prevailed and chose a successor to be the first caliph.
Eventually, Ali was chosen as the fourth caliph, but not before violent conflict broke out. Two of the earliest caliphs were murdered. War erupted when Ali became caliph, and he too was killed in fighting in the year 661 near the town of Kufa, now in present-day Iraq.
The violence and war split the small community of Muslims into two branches that would never reunite.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7332087
End of Excerpt
It is now about 1500 years later.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 28, 2010 - 06:13pm PT
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Hey HFCS I'm with ya all the way... despite being a real outsider pariah in the eyes of the exalted ones here.
Secular humanism has actually pretty much covered all the bases, though, whether or not Cragman et al. want to put it down as beneath their sainted consideration.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 28, 2010 - 07:10pm PT
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Discussions like this turn everyone into exaggerated two-dimensional caricatures of themselves. This is why a sense of humor is important, but even that can get twisted when the differences of opinion reach a certain level.
But really, if this is possible:
Then I'm sure we'd all get along just fine too in 3-D.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 28, 2010 - 08:11pm PT
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Any ideology can be abused. That seems to be the ultimate dilemma.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 28, 2010 - 08:40pm PT
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cintune "We don't see scientists running into churches and insisting that their areas of expertise be worked into the sermon. That is the original point of this thread. Creationism is a political agenda to introduce thinly-veiled religious dogma into science classrooms in the public schools. Norton's excellently provocative title stirred up the religiously-inclined posters here, who immediately started changing the subject to the ethical merits of their faith, and of course the non-believers couldn't let that go either."
Boulder Dash! It's about a Creator or no Creator, (but God is ethical and each one of us will have to give an account to Him one day, but through Jesus He'll see Jesus's righteousness and not my sin's!) Evolution says were just modified lime-green-slime! Creationist say were made in the image of God!
One question how is it that the planets are so round? In a rock tumbler rocks get smooth but keep their odd shapes? And how about their orbits? God tells us in the Bible that He did that!
Psalm 19:1
The Law of the Lord Is Perfect
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.
Psalm 50:6 The heavens declare his righteousness, for God himself is judge! Selah
Jeremiah 31:37 Thus says the Lord: “If the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth below can be explored, then I will cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done, declares the Lord.”
Hosea 2:21 “And in that day I will answer, declares the Lord, I will answer the heavens, and they shall answer the earth,
Zechariah 12:1 The Lord Will Give Salvation
The burden of the word of the Lord concerning Israel: Thus declares the Lord, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him
......
Proverbs 29:9, He who is often reproved, yet stiffens his neck,
will suddenly be broken beyond healing.
Ascribe to the Lord Glory
A Psalm of David.
29 Ascribe to the Lord, O heavenly beings,
ascribe to the Lord glory and strength.
2 Ascribe to the Lord the glory due his name;
worship the Lord in the splendor of holiness.
3 The voice of the Lord is over the waters;
the God of glory thunders,
the Lord, over many waters.
4 The voice of the Lord is powerful;
the voice of the Lord is full of majesty.
5 The voice of the Lord breaks the cedars;
the Lord breaks the cedars of Lebanon.
6 He makes Lebanon to skip like a calf,
and Sirion like a young wild ox.
7 The voice of the Lord flashes forth flames of fire.
8 The voice of the Lord shakes the wilderness;
the Lord shakes the wilderness of Kadesh.
9 The voice of the Lord makes the deer give birth
and strips the forests bare,
and in his temple all cry, “Glory!”
10 The Lord sits enthroned over the flood;
the Lord sits enthroned as king forever.
11 May the Lord give strength to his people!
May the Lord bless his people with peace!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2010 - 08:48pm PT
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Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.
9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.
8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.
7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!
6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.
5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.
4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."
3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.
2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.
1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2010 - 08:53pm PT
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Bible Quote for January 25
Kill Followers of Other Religions
"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst." (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2010 - 08:55pm PT
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And a real nice bible quote for Saturday!
Bible Quote for January 30
More Baby Killing
"The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 28, 2010 - 09:21pm PT
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It's funny cause it's true.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 28, 2010 - 09:23pm PT
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Gobee: Evolution says were just modified lime-green-slim! Creationist say were made in the image of God!
Well, there's lots and lots of steps between the earliest lifeforms and us hominids, actually. If you personally prefer to stick with one old myth instead of learning about life's progression, that's totally your choice. The point is that public school science curricula are supposed to teach the science, not the myth.
One question how is it that the planets are so round? In a rock tumbler rocks get smooth but keep their odd shapes? And how about their orbits? God tells us in the Bible that He did that!
Well... I'm tempted to just break out Cap'n Picard here, but I'll try to control the urge.
Aw, I canna resist.
Dude. Gravity did that.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 28, 2010 - 09:30pm PT
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More like a pinball wizard!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 28, 2010 - 09:33pm PT
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That list is too funny. Fundamentalism is neither fun nor mental
Teaching Creationism in schools, or believing in it in a literal way, does more harm to Religion than it does to science and it harms science a lot.
God and Foolishness about God are two separate things
Peace
Karl
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2010 - 09:53pm PT
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Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2010 - 09:56pm PT
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Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)
"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
Once again God approves of forcible rape.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 28, 2010 - 10:04pm PT
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Norton, your a glass half empty type of guy!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 28, 2010 - 10:07pm PT
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Take it up with Him!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2010 - 10:11pm PT
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Gobbee, now fair IS fair, I am sure you would agree.
You constantly post bible passages and you state your blind belief
that the bible is literal and the word of god.
When I quote bible passages back to you, I am showing you that I also
believe the bible should not be challenged, every single word comes
directly from the mouth of god.
Humans did NOT write the bible, did they Gobbee?
Only GOD, through humans, wrote the bible, therefore it is ALL God's words.
And so, Let's here some more stuff direct from our loving God, shall we?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2010 - 10:12pm PT
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Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2010 - 10:13pm PT
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God Commands Burning Humans
[The Lord speaking] "The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel." (Joshua 7:15 NLT)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2010 - 10:14pm PT
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Child Sacrifice
And this became a hidden trap for mankind, because men, in bondage to misfortune or to royal authority, bestowed on objects of stone or wood the name that ought not to be shared. Afterward it was not enough for them to err about the knowledge of God, but they live in great strife due to ignorance, and they call such great evils peace. For whether they kill children in their initiations, or celebrate secret mysteries, or hold frenzied revels with strange customs… (Wisdom 14:21-23 RSV) The Book of The Wisdom of Solomon is mostly in Catholic versions of the Bible. This passage condemns human sacrifice but acknowledges that it did happen by early God worshipers.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 28, 2010 - 10:14pm PT
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Werner is way off track, and his claim that our reality is just a dream,
You're a complete fool Dr F.
Nowhere did I say anything like that.
I always said the manifestation of the world is not accepted as false; it is accepted as real, but temporary.
You are a complete ranting nut Dr F. as you can't even read nor remember anything except your own projected delusions you project onto this world and people in it.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2010 - 10:16pm PT
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Burn Nonbelievers
"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 28, 2010 - 10:17pm PT
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Think New Testament and what Jesus said, but God is not to be mocked...
ESV STUDY BIBLE;
The Theology of the Old TestamentWhen it comes to describing “the theology of the Old Testament,” not everyone is convinced that there is a single theology represented in these diverse books. Many scholars have, however, tried to find a point of unity for all the books, often by proposing a single unifying theme, such as covenant, or the kingdom of God, or the Messiah, or God himself. These proposals do provide genuine insights, but they are often too oversimplified to do justice to the variety of materials in the OT.
It will be more fruitful to understand the OT as a whole in terms of an unfolding story, with a number of basic components: monotheism, creation and fall, election and covenant, covenant membership, and eschatology. This article will first explain these components, so that we can summarize the overarching story. Then we will consider briefly how the various parts of the OT relate to this unfolding story, and consider how this provides a link to the NT authors' stance toward the OT. The goal is to articulate some of the beliefs that will enable the careful reader to profit more fully from reading the OT books themselves.
The Components of the Story
1. Monotheism. There is only one true God, who made heaven and earth and all mankind. He made a material world that he is happy with, and he made it a fit place for human beings to live, and love, and serve. Every human being needs to know and love this God, whose spotless moral purity, magnificent power and wisdom, steadfast faithfulness, and unceasing love are breathtakingly beautiful. This one God rules over all things, and he will vindicate his own goodness and justice (in his own time). In ruling, God has not limited himself to working within the natural properties of what he has made, for he can go (and has gone) beyond these properties to do mighty deeds both in creation and in caring for his people.
The OT invites Israel, not simply to acknowledge the existence of this one true God, but to commit themselves to him in exclusive loyalty and love, centering their lives on the inestimable privilege of knowing him (Deut. 6:4–9). The fundamental character of this God is explained in Exodus 34:6–7, which focuses on his steadfast love and mercy (a passage frequently echoed in the rest of the OT). The OT also affirms that God is “righteous,” i.e., morally pure and perfect. Although this righteousness certainly results in God's work of punishing evildoers and vindicating his own moral character, the term commonly emphasizes God's reliability in keeping his promises (e.g., Ps. 71:2; 116:5).
The OT does not explicitly describe God as a trinity. Rather, with its references to God's Spirit (e.g., Gen. 1:2), its use of “us/our” for God (e.g., Gen. 1:26), and its indications or hints of a divine Messiah (e.g., Ps. 110:5; Isa. 9:6; cf. Ezek. 34:15, 23), it lays the groundwork for the fuller declaration of divine triunity that is found in the NT (Matt. 28:19; 1 Cor. 12:4–6; 2 Cor. 13:14).
2. Creation and fall. The one Creator God made the first human beings, Adam and Eve, with dignity and purpose; their calling was to live faithfully to God and to spread the blessings of Eden throughout the earth. Because Adam and Eve betrayed God's purpose, all people since the fall are beset with sins and weaknesses that only God's grace can redeem and heal.
3. Election and covenant. The one true God chose a people for himself and bound himself to them by his covenant (Ex. 19:4–6; Deut. 7:6–11). This covenant expressed God's intention to save the people, and through them to bring light to the rest of the world, in order to restore all things to their proper functioning in the world God made. The land of Israel was to be a kind of reconstituted Eden, which would flourish as the people's faithfulness flourished (or languish if the people were unfaithful). God's covenants generally involve one person who represents the whole people (e.g., Adam, Noah, Abraham, David): the rest of the people experience the covenant by virtue of their inclusion in the community represented. The representative is required to embody the ideal of covenant faithfulness as a model for those on whose behalf he has acted.
4. Covenant membership. In his covenant, God offers his grace to his people: the forgiveness of their sins, the shaping of their lives in this world to reflect his own glory, and a part to play in bringing light to the Gentiles. Each member of God's people is responsible to lay hold of this grace from the heart: to believe the promises (see Paul's use of Abraham and David as examples of faith in Rom. 4:1–25; cf. also Heb. 11:1–40), and then to grow in obeying the commands, and to keep on doing so all their lives long. Those who lay hold in this way are the faithful. These people, as distinct from the unfaithful among them, enjoy the full benefits of God's love. Each Israelite is a member of a people, a corporate entity; the members have a mutual participation in the life of the people as a whole. Thus the spiritual and moral well-being of the whole affects the well-being of each of the members, and each member contributes to the others by his own spiritual and moral life. Thus each one shares the joys and sorrows of the others, and of the whole. Historical judgments upon the whole people often come because too many of the members are unfaithful; these judgments do not, however, bring the story of God's people to an end but serve rather to purify and chasten that people (often by removing unbelieving members).
It is important for Christian readers to sharpen their grasp of how the OT uses words such as “salvation” and “judgment.” When the OT speaks of God “redeeming” his people (e.g., Ex. 15:13) or “saving” them (e.g., Ex. 14:30), it refers to God's gracious dealings for the sake of this corporate entity, the people: he calls it, he protects it, he purifies it, in order to foster the conditions under which the life of its members may flourish. The OT can also speak of God giving “salvation” or “redemption” to particular persons (e.g., Ps. 3:2, 7; 19:14). Generally in the OT, however, such expressions refer to members of the people experiencing the benefits of covenant membership, whether that be forgiveness of sins, or deliverance from some trouble or persecution, or something else—tracing everything back to the grace of God that led him to make the covenant originally and now to keep it in effect. When Christians speak of personal salvation, they usually are thinking of individuals in isolation, and so have a much narrower meaning in mind; they should consider whether the NT usage is closer to the OT usage than they might have realized hitherto, including both every aspect of their lives and their connections to other believers, and thus extending to a wider range of experience than simply their souls.
The “law,” given through Moses, plays a vital role in the OT. It is uniformly presented as an object of delight and admiration (e.g., Psalm 119) because it is a gift from a loving and gracious God. The law is never presented in the OT as a list of rules that one must obey in order to be right with God; rather, it is God's fatherly instruction, given to shape the people he has loved and saved into a community of faith, holiness, and love, bound together by mutual support and care. The various laws, with their penalties for infractions and provisions for repayment, were designed to protect that community from the failures of its members; and the moral guidelines gave specific form to what the restored image of God would look like in the agrarian culture of ancient Israel. Right at the heart of this system is worship at the sanctuary, with its provisions for atonement and forgiveness for those who have gone astray. Sadly, only in a very few instances in the OT do we see anything that even remotely matches this ideal, whether on a large scale (Josh. 22:1–34 is an excellent example, distinctive for its rarity) or on a small one (e.g., Boaz in the book of Ruth, who embodies the Lord's own kindness to a foreign-born “proselyte”). The prophets anticipated an era, after Judah's return from exile in Babylon, in which God's people would really take the law into their own hearts (e.g., Ezek. 36:25–27); the covenant renewal that the postexilic community experienced was, however, only a brief foretaste of that expectation. (Interpreters debate the way in which this relates to the spread of Christianity among the Gentiles—is it focused primarily on Israel laying hold of the covenant properly, or does it describe the new arrangement that Jesus' resurrection brought in?—but that is outside the scope of this article.)
5. Eschatology. The story of God's people is headed toward a glorious future in which all kinds of people will come to know the Lord and join his people. This was the purpose for which God called Abraham (Gen. 12:1–3), and for which he appointed Israel (Ex. 19:4–6). It is part of the dignity of God's people that, in God's mysterious wisdom, their personal faithfulness contributes to the story getting to its goal (cf. Deut. 4:6–8).
The OT develops its idea of a Messiah (eventually clarified as the ultimate heir of David) in the light of these components. The earliest strands of the messianic idea speak of an offspring who will undo the work of the Evil One and bless the Gentiles by bringing them into his kingdom (Gen. 3:15; 22:17–18; 24:60); the idea that kings will descend from Abraham (Gen. 17:6, 16) and Jacob (Gen. 35:11) becomes focused on the tribe of Judah, to which the obedience of the peoples will be brought (Gen. 49:10). The kings in David's line carry this idea forward. They are to embody the people: just as the people as a whole is God's son (Ex. 4:22–23), so also the Davidic king is God's son (2 Sam. 7:14; Ps. 89:26–27). The promise of a lasting dynasty for David (2 Sam. 7:16) becomes the expectation that a final heir of his line will one day arise, take his Davidic throne (in “the last days”), and lead his people in the great task of bringing light to the Gentiles (e.g., Ps. 2:8; 72:8–11, 17 [using Gen. 22:18]; Isa. 9:6–7; 11:1–10; see note on Isa. 42:1–9 concerning the servant of the Lord).
The Parts of the OT in Relation to the Story
The OT is thus the story of the one true Creator God, who called the family of Abraham to be his remedy for the defilement that came into the world through the sin of Adam and Eve. God rescued Israel from slavery in Egypt in fulfillment of this plan, and established them as a theocracy for the sake of displaying his existence and character to the rest of the world. God sent his blessings and curses upon Israel in order to pursue that purpose. God never desisted from that purpose, even in the face of the most grievous unfaithfulness in Israel.
This overarching story serves as a grand narrative or worldview story for Israel: each member of the people was to see himself or herself as an heir of this story, with all its glory and shame; as a steward of the story, responsible to pass it on to the next generation; and as a participant, whose faithfulness could play a role, by God's mysterious wisdom, in the story's progress.
Some who have seen this category of Israel's story as a key to OT theology have argued for reading the entire OT as a story. This does not help the reader, for the very obvious reason that not everything in the OT is narrative or “story.” For example, there are laws (in the Pentateuch), whose purpose was to protect equity and civility in the theocracy by guiding judges in what penalties to impose and specifying the minimum standard of behavior to preserve the theocracy (many of the specific laws do not intend to spell out the moral ideal for the members of Israel, which come from likeness to God in the creation account and from the goal of community holiness; the “perfection” of the laws consisted in the way they serve the social fabric of God's people); there is wisdom (in the books of Job, Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes, as well as in the Psalms), which helps the members to live well daily; there are songs (esp. the Psalms) that the people of God should sing in corporate worship; there are poems (esp. the Song of Solomon; cf. Prov. 5:15–20) celebrating such wonders as romantic love; and lots more. Therefore it is better to speak of reading the parts of the OT in relation to its overarching story. That is, we can see the parts in relation to the Big Story that unifies the whole. The Proverbs help people to live their little stories in such a way as to contribute to the Big Story. The Psalms—many of which explicitly recount parts of the Big Story—help people live as faithful members of the worshiping corporate entity, the people of God. The Prophets keep recalling the Big Story, the direction in which Israel's story is headed, calling their audiences to live faithfully in its light. The Big Story tells us that God's purpose is to restore our humanity to its proper function, and thus it reminds each person of the human nature he shares with every other human being, and of the duty and benefit of seeking the good of others. For example, for a faithful lover to enjoy the love of a faithful spouse is a way of experiencing renewed humanity—a way that displays God's goodness to the rest of the world (as in the Song of Solomon).
All of these factors explain why it is possible for the NT authors both to say that the Sinai covenant is done away with (see below), because it was focused on the theocracy, which had an end in mind from the beginning (when the Gentiles would receive the light in large measure)—and at the same time to affirm that this covenant has embedded in it principles that cannot pass away, because they are part of the larger story of which the Sinai covenant is one chapter.
The OT as Christian Scripture
The OT presents itself, then, as a story that is headed somewhere. The OT closes with both anxiety and hope under Persian rule (see Malachi). The books of the Second Temple period (between the Old and New Testaments) continue this notion of Israel as God's people chosen for a purpose, but not all strands of this material make clear what that purpose is. Some of these Second Temple books offer endings for the story (e.g., in the Qumran community as the elect); but the faithful were looking for more. (For more information on the Second Temple period, see The Time between the Testaments.) The NT authors, most of whom were Jewish Christians, saw themselves as heirs of the OT story, and as authorized to describe its proper completion in the death and resurrection of Jesus and the messianic era that this ushered in. These authors appropriated the OT as Christian Scripture, and they urged their audiences (many of whom were Gentile Christians) to do the same. There is debate over just how the NT authors used the OT as Scripture (see How the New Testament Quotes and Interprets the Old Testament), but the simplest summary of the NT authors' stance would be to say that they saw the OT as constituting the earlier chapters of the story in which Christians are now participating.
This construct, of earlier and later chapters in the story of God's work for his people, allows us to understand how the OT era and the Christian era will have elements both of continuity and of discontinuity. The OT had looked forward to an internationalized people of God, without explaining exactly how that would connect to the theocracy of Israel (see note on Ps. 87:4–6). The theocracy defined the people of God as predominantly coming from a particular ethnic group in a particular land; Gentile converts (“sojourners”) were protected (Ex. 12:49; 20:10; 22:21; Lev. 19:10) but could not be full-status members of the theocratic community (cf. Deut. 14:21; 15:3; Num. 34:14–15 shows that land was allocated to Israelites alone). The NT abolishes the distinction (Eph. 2:19), because the theocracy as such is no longer in existence and many of its provisions are done away with (cf. Acts 10:34–35; Heb. 9:11–14). At the same time, the character of the one Creator God, and his interest in restoring the image of God in human beings, transcends the specific arrangements of the theocracy: hence the moral commands of God apply to Christians as they did to the faithful in Israel (cf. Rom. 13:8–10).
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The Theology of the New TestamentNew Testament theology as a discipline is a branch of what scholars call “biblical theology.” Systematic theology and biblical theology overlap considerably, since both explore the theology found in the Bible. Biblical theology, however, concentrates on the historical story line of the Bible and explains the various steps in the progressive outworking of God's plan in redemptive history. In this article some of the main themes of NT theology are presented.
Already but Not Yet
The message of the NT cannot be separated from that of the OT. The OT promised that God would save his people, beginning with the promise that the seed of the woman would triumph over the seed of the Serpent (Gen. 3:15). God's saving promises were developed especially in the covenants he made with his people: (1) the covenant with Abraham promised God's people land, seed, and universal blessing (Gen. 12:1–3); (2) the Mosaic covenant pledged blessing if Israel obeyed the Lord (Exodus 19–24); (3) the Davidic covenant promised a king in the Davidic line forever, and that through this king the promises originally made to Abraham would become a reality (2 Samuel 7; Psalm 89; 132); and (4) the new covenant promised that God would give his Spirit to his people and write his law on their hearts, so that they would obey his will (Jer. 31:31–34; Ezek. 36:26–27).
As John the Baptist and Jesus arrived on the scene, it was obvious that God's saving promises had not yet been realized. The Romans ruled over Israel, and a Davidic king did not reign in the land. The universal blessing promised to Abraham was scarcely a reality, for even in Israel it was sin, not righteousness, that reigned. John the Baptist therefore summoned the people of Israel to repent and to receive baptism for the forgiveness of their sins, so that they would be prepared for a coming One who would pour out the Spirit and judge the wicked.
Jesus of Nazareth represents the fulfillment of what John the Baptist prophesied. Jesus, like John, announced the imminent arrival of the kingdom of God (Mark 1:15), which is another way of saying that the saving promises found in the OT were about to be realized. The kingdom of God, however, came in a most unexpected way. The Jews had anticipated that when the kingdom arrived, the enemies of God would be immediately wiped out and a new creation would dawn (Isa. 65:17). Jesus taught, however, that the kingdom was present in his person and ministry (Luke 17:20–21)—and yet the foes of the kingdom were not instantly annihilated. The kingdom did not come with apocalyptic power but in a small and almost imperceptible form. It was as small as a mustard seed, and yet it would grow into a great tree that would tower over the entire earth. It was as undetectable as leaven mixed into flour, but the leaven would eventually transform the entire batch of dough (Matt. 13:31–33). In other words, the kingdom was already present in Jesus and his ministry, but it was not yet present in its entirety. It was “already—but not yet.” It was inaugurated but not consummated. Jesus fulfilled the role of the Servant of the Lord in Isaiah 53, taking upon himself the sins of his people and suffering death for the forgiveness of their sins. The day of judgment was still to come in the future, even though there would be an interval between God's beginning to fulfill his promises in Jesus (the kingdom inaugurated) and the final realization of his promises (the kingdom consummated). Jesus, who has been reigning since he rose from the dead, will return and sit on his glorious throne and judge between the sheep and the goats (Matt. 25:31–46). Hence, believers pray both for the progressive growth and for the final consummation of the kingdom in the words “your kingdom come” (Matt. 6:10).
The Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) focus on the promise of the kingdom, and John expresses a similar truth with the phrase “eternal life.” Eternal life is the life of the age to come, which will be realized when the new creation dawns. Remarkable in John's Gospel is the claim that those who believe in the Son enjoy the life of the coming age now. Those who have put their faith in Jesus have already passed from death to life (John 5:24–25), for he is the resurrection and the life (John 11:25). Still, John also looks ahead to the day of the final resurrection, when every person will be judged for what he or she has done (John 5:28–29). While the focus in John is on the initial fulfillment of God's saving promises now, the future and final fulfillment is in view as well.
The already-not-yet theme dominates the entire NT and functions as a key to grasping the whole story (see chart). The resurrection of Jesus indicates that the age to come has arrived, that now is the day of salvation. In the same way the gift of the Holy Spirit represents one of God's end-time promises. NT writers joyously proclaim that the promise of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit has been fulfilled (e.g., Acts 2:16–21; Rom. 8:9–16; Eph. 1:13–14). The last days have come through Jesus Christ (Heb. 1:1–2), through whom we have received God's final and definitive word. Since the resurrection has penetrated history and the Spirit has been given, we might think that salvation history has been completed—but there is still the “not yet.” Jesus has been raised from the dead, but believers await the resurrection of their bodies and must battle against sin until the day of redemption (Rom. 8:10–13, 23; 1 Cor. 15:12–28; 1 Pet. 2:11). Jesus reigns on high at the right hand of God, but all things have not yet been subjected to him (Heb. 2:5–9).
The Already and Not Yet of the Last Days
The OT prophets, writing from the vantage point of their present age (the time of promise), spoke of “the last days” as being the time of fulfillment in the distant future (e.g., Jer. 23:20; 49:39; Ezek. 38:16; Hos. 3:5; Mic. 4:1).
Fulfillment through Jesus Christ, the Son of God
The NT highlights the fulfillment of God's saving promises, but it particularly stresses that those promises and covenants are realized through his Son, Jesus the Christ.
Who is Jesus? According to the NT, he is the new and better Moses, declaring God's word as the sovereign interpreter of the Mosaic law (Matt. 5:17–48; Heb. 3:1–6). Indeed, the Law and the Prophets point to him and find their fulfillment in him. Jesus is the new Joshua who gives final rest to his people (Heb. 3:7–4:13). He is the true wisdom of God, fulfilling and transcending wisdom themes from the OT (Col. 2:1–3). In the Gospels, Jesus is often recognized as a prophet. Indeed, Jesus is the final prophet predicted by Moses (Deut. 18:15; Acts 3:22–23; 7:37). Jesus' miracles, healings, and authority over demons indicate that the promises of the kingdom are fulfilled in him (Matt. 12:28), but his miracles also indicate that he shares God's authority and is himself divine, for only the Creator-Lord can walk on water and calm the sea (Matt. 8:23–27; cf. Ps. 107:29). Jesus is the Messiah, who brings to realization the promise that One would sit on David's throne forever. Recognizing Jesus as the Messiah is fundamental to all the Gospels and the missionary preaching of Acts, and is an accepted truth in the Epistles and Revelation.
The stature of Jesus shines out in the NT narrative, for he authoritatively calls on others to be his disciples, summoning them to follow him (Matt. 4:18–22; Luke 9:57–62). Indeed, a person's response to Jesus determines his or her final destiny (Matt. 10:32–33; cf. 1 Cor. 16:22). Jesus is the Son of Man who will receive the kingdom from the Ancient of Days (Dan. 7:13–14) and will reign forever. The Gospels emphasize, however, that his reign has been realized through suffering, for he is also the Servant of the Lord who has atoned for the sins of his people (Isa. 52:13–53:12; Mark 14:24; Rom. 4:25; 1 Pet. 2:21–25).
This One who atones for sin is fully God and divine. (See The Person of Christ.) He has the authority to forgive sins (Mark 2:7). Various NT occurrences of the word “name” indicate Jesus' divine status: people prophesy in his name (Matt. 7:22) and are to hope in his name (Matt. 12:21), and salvation comes in his name alone (Acts 4:12). But the OT establishes that human beings are to prophesy only in God's name, hope only in the Lord, and find salvation only in him; thus, such use of Jesus' name indicates his divinity.
The Greek translation of the OT (the Septuagint) identifies Yahweh as “the Lord.” In quoting or alluding to OT texts that refer to Yahweh, the NT authors often apply the title “Lord” to Jesus and evidently use it in that strong OT sense (e.g., Acts 2:21; Phil. 2:10–11; Heb. 1:10–12). The title is therefore another clear piece of evidence supporting Christ's divinity. Jesus is the image of God (Col. 1:15; cf. Heb. 1:3), is in the very form of God, and is equal to God, though he temporarily surrendered some of the privileges of deity by being clothed with humanity so that human beings could be saved (Phil. 2:6–8). Jesus as the Son of God enjoys a unique and eternal relationship with God (cf. Matt. 28:18; John 20:31; Rom. 8:32), and he is worshiped just as the Father is (cf. Revelation 4–5). His majestic stature is memorialized by a meal celebrated in his memory (Mark 14:22–25) and by people being baptized in his name (Acts 2:38; 10:48). The Son of God is the eternal divine Word (Gk. Logos) who has become flesh and has been identified as the man who is God's Son (John 1:1, 14). Finally, in a number of texts Jesus is specifically called “God” (e.g., John 1:1, 18; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1). Such texts involve no trace of the heresy of either modalism or tritheism. Rather, such statements contain the raw materials from which the doctrine of the Trinity was rightly formulated. (See The Trinity.)
New Testament theology, then, is Christ-centered and God-focused, for what Christ does on earth brings glory to God (John 17:1; Phil. 2:11). The NT particularly focuses on Jesus' work on the cross, by which he redeemed and saved his people. The story line in each of the Gospels culminates in and focuses on Jesus' death and resurrection. Indeed, the narrative of Jesus' suffering and death consumes a significant amount of space in the Gospels, indicating that the cross and resurrection are the point of the story. In Acts we see the growth of the church and the expansion of the mission, as the apostles and others proclaim the crucified and resurrected Lord. The Epistles explain the significance of Jesus' work on the cross and his resurrection, so that believers are enabled to grasp the height, depth, breadth, and width of the love of God (Rom. 8:39). The significance of the cross is explained in relation to themes such as new creation, adoption, forgiveness of sins, justification, reconciliation, redemption, sanctification, and propitiation. Woven together, these themes teach that salvation comes from the Lord, and that Jesus as the Christ has redeemed his people from the guilt and bondage of sin.
The Promise of the Holy Spirit
Bound up with the work of Christ is the work of the Holy Spirit. Jesus promised to send the Spirit to those who are truly his disciples (John 14:16–17, 26; 15:26), and he poured out the Spirit on his people at Pentecost (Acts 2:1–4, 33) after he had been exalted to the right hand of the Father. The Spirit was given to bring glory to Jesus Christ (John 16:14), so that Christ would be magnified as the great Savior and Redeemer. Luke and Acts in particular emphasize that the Spirit is given for ministry, so that the church is empowered to bear witness to Jesus Christ. At the same time, having the Spirit within a person is the mark of belonging to the people of God (Acts 10:44–48; 15:7–9; Rom. 8:9; Gal. 3:1–5). The Spirit also strengthens believers, so that they are enabled to live in a way that is pleasing to God. Transformation into Christlikeness is the Spirit's work (Rom. 8:2, 4, 13–14; 2 Cor. 3:18; Gal. 5:16, 18).
The Human Response
Because of sin, all humanity stands in need of the salvation that Christ brings. The power of sin is reflected in the biblical story line, for even Israel as the chosen people of the Lord lived under the dominion of sin, showing that the written law of God by its own power cannot deliver human beings from bondage to sin. Paul emphasizes that sin and death are twin powers that rule over all people, so that they stand in need of the redemption Christ brings (see Rom. 1:18–3:20; 5:1–7:25). Sin does not merely constitute failure to keep the law of God, but represents personal rebellion against God's lordship (1 John 3:4). The essence of sin is idolatry, in which people refuse to give thanks and praise to the one and only God, and worship the creature rather than the Creator (Rom. 1:18–25).
But sin is not the last word, since Jesus Christ came to save sinners, thereby highlighting the mercy and grace of God. The fundamental response demanded by God is faith and repentance (see note on Acts 2:38). The call to faith and repentance is evident in the ministry of John the Baptist, in Jesus' announcement of the kingdom (Mark 1:15), in the speeches in Acts, in the Pauline letters, and throughout the NT. Those who desire to be part of Jesus' new community (the church) and part of the kingdom of God (God's rule in people's hearts and lives) must forsake false gods, renounce self-worship and evil, and turn to Jesus as Lord and Master. The call to repentance is nothing less than a summons to abandonment of sin and to personal faith, whereby people are called to trust in the saving work of the Lord on their behalf instead of thinking that they can save themselves. All people everywhere have violated God's will and must look outside of themselves to the saving work of Christ for deliverance from God's wrath. Indeed, the whole of the NT can be understood as a call to repentance and faith (cf. Hebrews 11). Even those who are already believers are to exert themselves in faith and repentance as long as life lasts, for this is the mark of Christ's true disciples. The NT writers constantly encourage their readers to persevere in faith until the end, and warn of the dangers of rejecting Jesus as Lord at any stage. True believers testify that salvation is of the Lord, and that Jesus Christ is the One who has delivered them from the coming wrath.
The People of God
The saving promises of God, then, have begun to be fulfilled in a new community, the church of Jesus Christ. The church is composed of believers in Jesus Christ, both Jews and Gentiles, for the laws in the OT that separated Jews from Gentiles (e.g., circumcision, purity laws, and special festivals and holidays) are no longer in force. The church is God's new temple, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and is called to live out the beauty of the gospel by showing the supreme mark of Christ's disciples: love for one another (John 13:34–35).
The church recognizes, however, that she exists in an interim state. She eagerly awaits the return of Jesus Christ, and the consummation of all of God's purposes. In the interim, the church is to live out her life as the radiant bride of Christ in holiness and godliness, and to herald the good news of salvation to the ends of the earth, so that others who live in the darkness of sin may be transferred from Satan's kingdom to the kingdom of the Lord. The church longs for the day when she will behold God face-to-face and worship Jesus Christ forever. The new creation will be a full reality, all things will be new, and the Lord will be praised for his love and mercy and grace forever—for NT theology is ultimately about glorifying and praising God.
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God's Plan of SalvationA troubled jailer in the first century once asked two Christian leaders, “what must I do to be saved?” (Acts 16:30). This in fact is the most important question that anyone can ask. We are troubled not only by the evils of our world but also by our own faults. We often feel guilty for those words and deeds that our own consciences tell us are wrong. We probably sense that we deserve God's judgment, not his favor. What can be done—or what has been done—to rescue us from our helpless situation? We begin our answer by offering an overview of God's plan and his work to bring salvation, followed by a more detailed unpacking of these truths.
An Overview
Creation
God made this world and all that is in it: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. . . . God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them” (Gen. 1:1, 27). He created human beings to be like him and to have unhindered fellowship with him, and when his work of creation was finished he saw that it was “very good” (Gen. 1:31).
Rebellion
Although the first people God created, Adam and Eve, had complete freedom to live in friendship and trust with him, they chose to rebel (Gen. 3:1–7). Because God designed that Adam would represent the entire human race, his sin was catastrophic not only for him but for us: “one trespass led to condemnation for all men” (Rom. 5:18). Our fellowship with God was broken. Instead of enjoying his holy pleasure, we instead face his righteous wrath. Through this sin, we all died spiritually (see Rom. 3:1–20; Eph. 2:1–10) and the entire world was affected. God also cursed the world over which humanity had been set to reign as his lieutenants (see Gen. 3:17–19). “The creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it” (Rom. 8:20). And we all individually sin against God in our own lives: “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3:23).
Redemption
God would have been perfectly just to leave matters there, with all human beings under his holy judgment, but he didn't. God instead set in motion his plan to save his people from sin and judgment and set free the entire creation from its subjugation to sin and the curse. How? By sending his Son as a true man who would bear the penalty for our sin and die in our place: “Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures” (1 Cor. 15:3).
The best-known verse in the Bible summarizes the required response to this good news: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). To “believe in” Jesus includes both a wholehearted trust in him for forgiveness of sins and a decision to forsake one's sin or to “repent”: All who truly “repent [or turn from their sins] and believe [in Jesus for the forgiveness of their sins]” will be redeemed (Mark 1:15) and restored to a right relationship with God. To “believe in” Jesus also requires relating to, and putting trust in, Jesus as he truly is—not just a man in ancient history but also a living Savior today who knows our hearts and hears our prayers.
Consummation
God not only rescues lost sinners but he restores all of creation. We read in Romans 8:21: “the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.” The heavens and the earth will “pass away” and be radically transformed (2 Pet. 3:7–13; Rev. 21:1). We read of the glorious culmination of this in the book of Revelation, where God's people, the redeemed, are brought into the presence of God to live (Rev. 21:1–22:6). This is life as it should be, literally as it was meant to be.
Filling in the Details
Let's now stop and review this more carefully and specifically, addressing the questions of God, man, Christ, the response, and the result.
God
The God of the Bible is the one and only true God. He is the greatest of all beings. He depends on no other being for his existence. He exists eternally as one God in three persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—a mystery beyond our understanding, but not a contradiction. He plans and acts according to his own good pleasure. He “works all things according to the counsel of his will” (Eph. 1:11). God created the world and acts in it today in accordance with his own perfect, holy, good, and loving plan, in accordance with his own good pleasure.
In the same way that this perfectly good God created everything according to his own purposes, so he has acted to save people who have rebelled against him. This action, too, is not because of anything external compelling him, but it is “according to his great mercy” that “he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Pet. 1:3).
Man
People are made in the image of God (Gen. 1:27–28). What does that mean? In part it means that we are privileged to act as God's representatives, as sub-rulers over God's creation, subduing the creatures of the earth, reflecting God's good rule over us. Our authority is derived from God's (Eph. 3:14–15) and is meant to reflect his own. But beyond function, being in God's image also means that we are like God in many ways. Like God, we are spiritual and rational beings. Like God, we communicate and establish relationships. Like God, our souls endure eternally.
However, the Bible also teaches that there has been an enduring effect of the sin of Adam and Eve recorded in Genesis 3. Because of that sin, we are born morally fallen. We are naturally turned away from God and toward sin in every area of life. We are not as bad as we possibly could be, but we are at no point as good as we ought to be. We are now all sinners, and we sin in all areas of life (Rom. 3:23). We are corrupted and make the wrong choices. We are not holy, and are in fact inclined to evil; we do not love God, and therefore we are under just condemnation to eternal ruin, without defense or excuse. We are guilty of sinning against God, fallen from his favor, and under the curse of Genesis 3, and the promise of his right and just judgment of us in the future and forever is guaranteed to us (“the wages of sin is death,” Rom. 6:23). This is the state from which we need to be saved.
Jesus Christ
It was, then, when all human beings were desperate and helpless, that God “loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins” (1 John 4:10).
Fully God. The Son of God, who has eternally existed with the Father and the Holy Spirit, and who has eternally possessed all the attributes of God, became a man. He was born as Jesus, son of the virgin Mary. The Son entered this world with a purpose: he came “to give his life as a ransom for many” (Mark 10:45), which means he came to redeem us from sin and guilt. He was not an unwitting or unwilling sacrifice. He, following his Father, chose to love the world in this way. Though now fully human, he was also fully God throughout the time of his life on earth (and remains fully God to this day). Jesus himself clearly taught his deity in the way he fulfilled prophecy, which was associated with the coming of God himself (Mark 14:61–62). Jesus forgave sins (Mark 2:5), he accepted worship (John 20:28; Revelation 5), and he taught, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30).
Fully man. Jesus Christ was also fully man. He was not a deity pretending to be human when he was not. Jesus was fully human (and remains fully human to this day). He was born and lived in submission to his earthly parents. He had a fully human body. He “grew and became strong, filled with wisdom” (Luke 2:40). He learned the carpentry trade (Mark 6:3). He experienced hunger, felt thirst and tiredness, faced temptation, and eventually suffered even death itself. Jesus Christ was, and is, fully God and fully man. The eternal Son of God became a man in order to save sinners.
Perfect life. Jesus Christ lived a perfect life. Indeed, all his actions were as they should be. His words were perfect. He said only what the Father commanded. “What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me” (John 12:50). He did only what the Father willed (John 5:19; e.g., Luke 22:42). So, the writer to the Hebrews concludes, “we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin” (Heb. 4:15). Jesus lived the life of consistent, wholehearted love to the Father that Adam and Eve and Israel—and all of us—should have lived. He deserved no punishment from God because he was never disobedient.
Teaching. Jesus came to teach God's truth, especially about himself (Mark 1:38; 10:45; Luke 20:42; 24:44). He taught the truth about God, about his relationship with God the Father (John 14), about our sin, about what he had come to do, and about what we must do in response. He explained that the Scriptures of the OT were about him (Luke 24:44).
Crucifixion. But God sent his Son especially to die for us (Mark 10:45; John 3:16–18). This is how God has shown his love for us (Rom. 5:8; 1 John 4:9–10). Christ gave his life as a ransom for us (Mark 10:45; 1 Tim. 2:6). By his death he paid the penalty for our sin. Jesus Christ's crucifixion was a horrible act of violence by the people who rejected, sentenced, mocked, tortured, and crucified him. And yet it was also a display of the self-giving love of God, as the Son of God bore the penalty of God's wrath against us for our sin (Deut. 21:23; Isa. 53:5; Rom. 3:25–26; 4:25; 5:19; 8:3; 2 Cor. 5:21; Phil. 2:8; Heb. 9:28).
Resurrection, ascension, return. On the third day after his crucifixion, Jesus was raised from the dead by God. This demonstrated an acceptance of Christ's service in his ministry and specifically showed God's acceptance of his sacrifice for all those who would repent and believe (Rom. 1:4; 4:25). He ascended to heaven and “will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven” (Acts 1:11). Christ's return will bring God's plan of salvation to completion.
Response
So if God has done this in Christ, what are we to do to be saved? We must turn to God in Christ, which entails turning back from sin. If we repent of (decide to forsake and turn from) our sin (as best we understand it) and trust in Christ as a living person, we will be saved from God's righteous wrath against our sins. This response of repentance and faith (or trust) can be explained in more detail as follows:
Turn to God. In the OT, God commands people to turn or return to him, and so be saved (e.g., Isa. 6:10; Jer. 18:8). In the NT, Christ preached that people should turn to God, and Paul summarized his account of his preaching with that phrase: “that they [everyone] should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance” (Acts 26:20; cf. Acts 26:18). Thus, as Paul said earlier, he preached “testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ” (Acts 20:21). To repent means to turn. And the turning that we are called to do in order to be saved is fundamentally a turning to God. James could refer to the Gentiles who “turn to God” (Acts 15:19). To “turn to,” in this sense in the Bible, is to orient your life toward someone. As God's people—those who are being saved—we are to play the part of the Prodigal Son who, though conscious of sin, guilt, and folly, flees to the Father (Luke 15:20). Paul at Lystra calls the people to turn to the living God (Acts 14:15). Paul refers to the Galatian Christians as those who had come to “know God” (Gal. 4:9); this is what we do in repentance: we repent to, we turn to God, and henceforth know him as the God who forgives our sins and accepts us for Christ's sake.
Turn away from sin. Turning to God necessarily implies our turning away from sin. The whole Bible—OT and NT—clearly teaches that to repent is to “acknowledge [God's] name and turn from [our] sins” (1 Kings 8:35; cf. 2 Chron. 7:14; Jer. 36:3; Ezek. 14:6; 18:30; Acts 3:19; 8:22; 26:18; Rev. 2:21–22; 9:20–21; 16:11). We cannot start to pursue God and sin at the same time. First John makes it clear that our basic way of life will either be oriented toward God and his light, or toward the darkness of sin. Christians in this life still sin, but against our deepest desires and better judgment; our lives are not guided and directed by sin as before. We are no longer enslaved to sin. Though we still struggle with it (Gal. 5:17), God has given us the gift of repentance (Acts 11:18), and we have been freed from sin's dominating power.
Believe and trust. Put another way, our response is to believe and trust God's promises in Christ, and to commit ourselves to Christ, the living Lord, as his disciples. Among Jesus' first words in Mark's Gospel are “repent and believe in the gospel” (Mark 1:15). The obedience that typifies God's people, beginning with repentance, is to result from the faith and trust we have in him and his word (e.g., Josh. 22:16; Acts 27:25). Thus sins are sometimes called “breaking faith with God” (e.g., Ezra 10:2, 10). Having faith in Christ, which seals our union with him through the Holy Spirit, is the means by which God accounts Christ's righteousness as our own (Rom. 3:21–26; 5:17–21; Gal. 2:16; Eph. 2:8–9; Phil. 3:9). Paul could refer to “salvation through faith in Christ” (2 Tim. 3:15). Frequently this initial repentance and faith can be simply expressed to God himself in prayer.
Grow in godliness and battle for holiness. Such saving faith is something that we exercise, but even so it is a gift from God. Paul writes, “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast” (Eph. 2:8–9). At the same time, Paul explained that Christians know an internal battle: “For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do” (Gal. 5:17). God's gift of salvation has been given to Christians, but the evidence of that salvation is lived out in the continual work of God's Spirit. We can deceive ourselves, and so Paul encourages his readers to “Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves” (2 Cor. 13:5). Peter encourages Christians to grow in godliness and so become more confident of their election (2 Peter 1). We don't create our own salvation by our actions, but we reflect and express it and so grow in our certainty of it. Because we Christians are liable to deceive ourselves, we should give ourselves to the study of God's Word to be instructed and encouraged in our salvation, and to learn what is inconsistent with it. Jesus' descriptions of his followers (see Matthew 5–7), or Paul's list of the fruit of the Spirit's work in us (see Gal. 5:22–23), act as spiritual maps that help us locate ourselves to see if we are on the path of salvation.
Result
God's plan is to save his people from their sins—and to bring his people fully and finally to himself (Matt. 1:21; 2 Tim. 2:10). Christians experience salvation in this life in both a past and present sense, and we anticipate salvation in a future sense. Christians have been saved from the penalty of our sins; we are currently being saved from the power of sin; and one day, when God's plan of salvation is completed and we are with Christ, we shall be like him, and we shall be saved even from the very presence of sin. This is God's plan of salvation.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2010 - 10:43pm PT
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HOW SICK IS THE POPE?
One deeply disturbed and delusional man.
"Pope John 11 used a belt to whip himself"
John Paul frequently denied himself food – especially during the holy season of Lent – and "frequently spent the night on the bare floor," messing up his bed in the morning so he wouldn't draw attention to his act of penitence.
"But it wasn't limited to this. As some members of his close entourage in Poland and in the Vatican were able to hear with their own ears, John Paul flagellated himself. In his armoire, amid all the vestments and hanging on a hanger, was a belt which he used as a whip and which he always brought to Castel Gandolfo," the papal retreat where John Paul vacationed each summer.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/26/pope-john-paul-ii-used-be_n_437075.html
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2010 - 10:45pm PT
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How GOD commands us to KILL, straight from the Word of God, the BIBLE.
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2010 - 10:49pm PT
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GOD Commands His Followers to KILL Damn Near Everything
Kill Sons of Sinners
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
God Will Kill Children
The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
Kill Men, Women, and Children
"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
God Kills all the First Born of Egypt
And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)
Kill Old Men and Young Women
"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)
(Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)
God Will Kill the Children of Sinners
If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)
More Rape and Baby Killing
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 28, 2010 - 10:53pm PT
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Romans 12:14-21, Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. 17 Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. 18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. 19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” 20 To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 28, 2010 - 10:57pm PT
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Norton- "For whether they kill children in their initiations, or celebrate secret mysteries..."
The Israelites lacked faith in Jehovah God! Regardless of the miracles they witnessed during and preceding the Exodus, they continually resorted to idol worship. Moses was gone for forty days on the mountain where he received the ten commandments, and returned to a naked, ranting throng, worshiping a golden calf. It was formed from the gold earrings etc that they had brought with them from Egypt.
Yes, a few did actually go so low as to sacrifice their own chidren at the feet of these idols. This was the widespread practice of the various tribes/peoples that were out there. Humanity had slumped to an all time low. Read about the other inhabitants and cities they were up against. They were pure evil. In some cases they had to wipe out everything associated with them, or like a cancer it would return.
That was Achan that was stoned and then burned after he was dead. He had taken gold and silver idols from Jericho. God said to destroy the whole city, everything connected to Jericho.
The Israelites, constantly complained, and turned to worshiping the idols and gods of other cultures, where human sacrifice was a widespread practice, particularly child sacrifice to their idols/gods.
If you were God what would you do?
He intervened by choosing a people to reveal Himself to. Israel.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2010 - 11:04pm PT
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The murdering of children:
Leviticus 20:9 “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.”
Judges 11:30-40 Jephthah killed his young daughter (his only child) by burning her alive as a burnt sacrifice to the lord for he commanded it.
Psalms 137:8-9 Prayer/song of vengeance “0 daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.”
2 Kings 6:28-29 “And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.”
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 “If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”
Judges 19:24-29 “Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go. Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man’s house where her lord was, till it was light. And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold. And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place. And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.” To put it very bluntly this poor, young lady was murdered by her mate for being raped.
Exodus 12:29 God killed, intentionally, every first-born child of every family in Egypt, simply because he was upset at the Pharaoh. And god caused the Pharaoh’s actions in the first place. Since when is it appropriate to murder children for their ruler’s forced action?
Exodus 20:9-10 God commands death for cursing out ones parents Joshua 8 God commanded the deaths of 12,000 men, women, and children of Ai. They were all slain in the ambush that was planned by god.
2 Kings 2:23-24 The prophet Elisha, was being picked on by some young boys from the city because of his bald head. The prophet turned around and cursed them in the Lords name. Then, two female bears came out of the woods and killed forty-two of them. You would think that God could understand that sometimes the youthful make childish jokes. Calling someone “bald head” is far from being worthy of death.
Leviticus 26:30 “And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.”
1 Samuel 15:11-18 God repents of having made Saul king since Saul refused to carry out God’s commandments (i.e., Saul refused to murder all the innocent women and children.) At least god realizes what an immoral, murderous pig he is on this one.
I Kings 16:34 Laying the foundation for a city using your firstborn child and using your youngest son to set up the gates.
Isaiah 13:15-18 If God can find you, he will “thrust you through,” smash your children “to pieces” before your eyes, and rape your wife.
Jeremiah 11:22-23 God will kill the young men in war and starve their children to death.
Jeremiah 19:7-9 God will make parents eat their own children, and friends eat each other.
Lamentations 2:20-22 God gets angry and mercilessly torments and kills everyone, young and old. He even causes women to eat their children.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2010 - 11:05pm PT
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Child abuse:
Genesis 22:9 & 10 “And they came to the place which God had told him of and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.” It matters not that god let Abraham get out of murdering Isaac. To put a knife up to your son’s throat is child abuse.
I Kings 3:24-25 “And the king said, Bring me a sword. And they brought a sword before the king. And the king said, Divide the living child in two, and give half to the one, and half to the other." This test was of course given to see who the real mother of the child was. Christians view this king as a wise man. I look upon his suggestion with far more revulsion then I give accredit to Susan Smith.
Proverbs 13:24, 19:18, 22:15, 23:13-14 & 29:15 God commands repeatedly that you beat your children.
Matthew 19:29 If you really loved Jesus then he insists that you abandon your wife and children for him. Only that way will he allow you to go to heaven. (That is if you meet his other hefty requirements, don’t slip through the loopholes, and ignore the contradictions.)
Mark 7:9 Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 28, 2010 - 11:06pm PT
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We've already had this discussion, Tripster.
The Nazis said the same kinds of things about the Jews. They had to be destroyed to save the world.
So much for post-genocidal apologetics.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 28, 2010 - 11:38pm PT
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Norton- "Mark 7:9 Jesus criticized the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament Law."
"You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition." Mark 7:9.
The Pharisees used God as an excuse to avoid helping their families. They thought it more important to put money in the temple treasury, then to help their needy parents, although Gods law says to honour your parents.
Jesus was speaking directly to the Pharisees.
You are taking everything out of context Norton!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jan 28, 2010 - 11:41pm PT
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is thread is back inot one of it's bad, phases...
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 28, 2010 - 11:42pm PT
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Q. Why did god quit drinking whiskey?
A. It made him mean!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 28, 2010 - 11:50pm PT
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I thought that literalists believed that all of the Bible was the word of God....
not just Genesis... so how does a Christian choose what to take literally and what not to take literally? I didn't think you could cut any of it and, say, just read the New Testament.
Isn't that the point of a "literal interpretation" of the Bible?
and also the source of dealing with those pesky instructions on who to stone, etc...
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 28, 2010 - 11:51pm PT
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Norton- "If you realy love Jesus then He insists that you abandon your wife and children for Him."
That is an out right lie Norton.
He is talking about anyone that has been rejected by his or her family for excepting Christ.
Such as is the practice in many Islamic country's where they risk being killed for rejecting Mohamed/Allah/Islam, and becoming followers of Jesus Christ.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 12:03am PT
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Thanks for the support, guys.
You know who you are, I'm keeping track...
“Our ignorance is not as vast as our failure to use what we know”.
M. King Hubbert
the geologist who warned a long time ago about "peak oil"
a concept every informed citizen should know about...
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 29, 2010 - 12:06am PT
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Ed- "who to stone"
Jesus- "He who is with out sin cast the first stone."
Jesus- "You must be born again"
Jesus took all the world's sin upon Himself.
Ed, are you prepared to meet Him face to face?
Or are you without sin?
Are you prepared to hear "I don't even know you!"
?
That is what He has to offer, He has paid the penalty for YOUR sins.
And you reject His gift of eternal life.
= Eternal Darkness/Eternal Death!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 12:08am PT
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It's a narrative, a story, we've all heard it.
Basta. Enough already! Take a clue from the Muslims.
Get yourself on the right side of history, adapt!
EDIT Norton, shift from argument to construction.
Build! Build! Build! What are your ideas about bringing innovation to
a new kind of belief discipline?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2010 - 12:09am PT
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TRip, get your act together.
Either you believe what is written in the bible is the world of god,
or you do not.
You cannot have it both ways, you do not get to pick and choose what
god wrote and what some dumbass human wrote.
You buy it all as the work of god or you say it is like santa and the easter bunny.
Trip, do not tell me the bible is a LIE.
I gave YOU chapter and verse, over and over, you just will not admit
that the bible, as written by god, is FULL of god telling YOU to kill
children, to have slaves, to rape women, on and on.
The bible is an instruction book from god on how to kILL AND TORTURE.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2010 - 12:14am PT
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Natural Disasters are God's Wrath
The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night. (Nahum 1:2-8 NLT)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2010 - 12:15am PT
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God Will Kill Ethiopia
"You Ethiopians will also be slaughtered by my sword," says the LORD. And the LORD will strike the lands of the north with his fist. He will destroy Assyria and make its great capital, Nineveh, a desolate wasteland, parched like a desert. The city that once was so proud will become a pasture for sheep and cattle. All sorts of wild animals will settle there. Owls of many kinds will live among the ruins of its palaces, hooting from the gaping windows. Rubble will block all the doorways, and the cedar paneling will lie open to the wind and weather. This is the fate of that boisterous city, once so secure. "In all the world there is no city as great as I," it boasted. But now, look how it has become an utter ruin, a place where animals live! Everyone passing that way will laugh in derision or shake a defiant fist. (Zephaniah 2:12-15 NLT)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2010 - 12:15am PT
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God Will Kill Everyone
"I will sweep away everything in all your land," says the LORD. "I will sweep away both people and animals alike. Even the birds of the air and the fish in the sea will die. I will reduce the wicked to heaps of rubble, along with the rest of humanity," says the LORD. "I will crush Judah and Jerusalem with my fist and destroy every last trace of their Baal worship. I will put an end to all the idolatrous priests, so that even the memory of them will disappear. For they go up to their roofs and bow to the sun, moon, and stars. They claim to follow the LORD, but then they worship Molech, too. So now I will destroy them! And I will destroy those who used to worship me but now no longer do. They no longer ask for the LORD's guidance or seek my blessings." (Zephaniah 1:2-6 NLT)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 29, 2010 - 12:16am PT
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I don't know how to respond to you 777
In my life I have always tried to act with empathy to my fellow beings, and hoped they would do the same. And I have made an effort to fully appreciate this short time of life, and to do something with it.
I have not always succeeded in either of those two goals. But I don't think I have badly failed either.
My understanding of the universe is that that is all I can or have to worry about.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 29, 2010 - 12:29am PT
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Norton- "If you really love Jesus than He insists that you leave..."
INSISTS!
"And everyone who has left houses or brothers and sisters mothers and fathers...for my names sake"
He never INSISTED for anyone to do such a thing. The reality is some will be persecuted to such an extent that they will have to leave. And I just gave you an excellent example of current situations that are in effect in this world today...
Norton, you put words into the mouth of Jesus Christ that are not true.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 29, 2010 - 12:38am PT
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Ed!
With all due respect Ed I believe you are an upstanding individual, perhaps par excellance. I am sure you have(or hope you have)led a much better life than myself. But Jesus stated "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." He states that to even "look at a women with lust" is to be guilty of rape. It is a holy God we are dealing with.
Only God can convict your spirit of this. Spirit to spirit.
Hopefully He will open some of your eyes(spiritual eyes), eyes to the true nature of your heart/soul.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 12:57am PT
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But 777! Did you not say that god forgives? Right upthread.
Is it too much to expect god to realize snakes can be quite persuasive and that being a god he really should forgive Adam and Eve? Thereby eliminating all of this problem of original sin you say hangs over poor Ed's head?
How is Ed being treated fairly by a god who holds him liable because someone, not even Ed, ate an apple 6000 years ago.
I know the logic and equity of this story are immensely powerful.
But really.
Couldn't you forgive Ed? You have talked to god so I am sure you and god could work something out, for Ed at least.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 29, 2010 - 01:14am PT
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Jesus is more than willing to forgive all who come to Him!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 29, 2010 - 01:22am PT
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jstan!
Ed is liable for Ed. That is why I asked if he had sinned(He without sin, cast the first stone...)^^^. He honestly stated that he(Ed) is not perfect. Only Jesus led the perfect life, only He can stand in Ed's place. Ed has to ask for forgiveness,it is a gift...Ed has to except it.
I can't except it for Ed.
I pray, that is how I talk to God.
I will pray for Ed.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 29, 2010 - 01:28am PT
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Scientists know the answers we have, but more important they have a pretty good idea of the answers we don't. Religious folks on the otherhand, claim to have an answer for everything. That's the absolute truth here and the essential problem with religion. Is there a question Gobee can't answer with a quote? I very much doubt it.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 29, 2010 - 01:30am PT
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Rok... I certainly don't hate, and I can't imagine jstan hating... it seems a bit extreme to call criticism of a life philosophy "hating"
And I believe it is an individual decision, choosing a life philosophy, as it is the individual who deals with the consequences of that choice. So while I appreciate the concern for the disposition of my eternal soul, I make my own choices and will deal with the consequences of those choices.
My father taught me that a long time ago.
"I'm the one who has to die
When it's time for me to die
So let me live my life
The way I want to"
Jimi Hendrix If 6 Were 9
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jstan
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 02:32am PT
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Telling someone you don't really know that well that they will burn in hell for eternity is a poor way to strike up a conversation, I think. If one tries to be open minded one does not immediately respond in a direct and confrontational manner. Instead you say, "OK show me what convinces you that this is so."
In all the time I have been on earth no one has shown me anything credible. I'm still waiting. On ST I have continued to ask for credible data.
I will admit it is tiring continually to be warned of my fate by persons who supply no credible response to my questions. Frankly I do not feel this is the kind of treatment a responsible person would give to someone they feel is an adult.
A three to five year old child - perhaps. But I have to tell you. I have not been carded in a rather long time.
I have actually learned quite a bit from this thread. I have learned that no two people use the word christian in the same way. Endless divergent opinions as to who is a christian and who isn't. Oddly enough, as I posted earlier regarding the Sunni and Shia schism, even that offshoot of this thread's subject theology have the same arguments, there with fatal consequences for the unlucky. I call it "this thread's subject theology" because I may not use the word christian. Words without agreed upon meaning should not be used by those hoping for useful result.
In contradistinction to the schism we are experiencing here on ST, the Sunni Shia schism has been producing fatal results for going on 1500 years. I'll repeat an earlier comment.
You know something is very wrong whenever you see so little improvement.
Faith is supposed to produce something better - right?
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 02:52am PT
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"burn in hell for eternity"
This is dogmatic bullsh'it.
Every criminal is ultimately freed after serving his/her prison term.
Due to secretarian Christianity dogma not fully understanding the individual soul and how it transmigrates from body to body according to the consciousness it develops this "burn in hell for eternity" bullsh'it has arisen.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 04:08am PT
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Let's not ignore Karl's point:
God and Foolishness about God are two separate things
Upthread a ways Ghost, healyje, and possible others were saying that a compassionate God would not allow humans to suffer in some of ways we do. I agree that the scale of suffering might be reduced a bit, or even a lot, but what would it mean, if anything, if it were eliminated?
In nature there are organisms we figure we could do without, like mosquitos or tapeworms, and we might be right, but if we start picking and choosing and eliminating, we could reach a point at which the ecosystem loses a vital element of diversity we hadn't been aware of. As in the island biogeography David Quammen writes about.
I don't claim to have an answer, but I think it is reasonable to ask what would change if no one was nasty to anyone else and if no one got squashed in earthquakes, drowned in tidal waves, or died on mountains.
Those who state in this thread that God could have a plan that requires terrible things to happen may have a point.
quotes below from Voytek Kurtyka
The Path of the Mountain
in Alpinism volume 1, 1988
Who am I?
Where do I go?
Which way do I follow?
These questions spring from the consciousness of death and the transitoriness of things, and from the sense of omnipresent suffering and from the intellectual helplessness in the face of the common mysteries.
The 'reply' to these questions, when the circumstances [surviving high-altitude near-death?] allowed them to appear, shaped themselves not in words, but in the form of a different state of consciousness, in which the world around took on new colors and qualities. And all the components of this world, even those hardest to accept, like death and suffering, seemed surprisingly proper and irreplaceable.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jan 29, 2010 - 04:25am PT
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hey there all, say, i just this post of mh2...
i sure dont understand the ways of god in the world, only he really does...
but sometimes we can learn a lot by principles seen in nature, the critters, and the weather, and things, etc...
i know we can learn this:
diamonds only develope their way to shine, by a certain pressure process...
pearls only get pressured a certain way, to be created for the lovelyness...
it is little things like this, that show some kind of a process to make things lovely, as to inanimate objects...
*edit: so then, to use this principle to learn of higher ways:
god may know of how the presssure of life, seem to pain us, but yet, are making us to have an inner beauty far more precious than we'd be, if left to our "own wiles of ease" etc...
even we, meaning mankind, knows that crystal vases shine more brighter, when creased, than without...
perhaps the good lord know that his way of creasing our path in life, will make us shine far more greater and lovely, in the forever-after...
the spiritual way, after all, is very different than the earthy way, nearly all folks in the world, even seem to see this...
well, just a few words for us to think on as we daily press on, to overcome in life...
:)
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 29, 2010 - 04:59am PT
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Mh2-
Thanks so much for the reference to A.C. Grayling. It is a real pleasure to listen to someone so intelligent and articulate whether one agrees or not. I'm trying to decide now which of his books to order.
I personally think he rather over romanticizes the ancient Greeks. All that reason would have seemed pretty irrelevant to a person who was one of their slaves. I also think he blames the church more than he should for the dark ages. They were brought about by the economic overextension of Rome, its decadence, and most especially by the barbarian invasions. At one point Pope Leo V saved the Roman populace from pillage by riding out unarmed to ask for mercy for the city. The raiders were so impressed with his bravery that they spared Rome. It seems to me that the church ended up with political power by default as much as anything, although it certainly abused it later on.
Having said that, I quite liked his distinction between atheism which has a negative connotation of rejection and its substitution with the word naturalism which stands for something instead of against it. I have learned from teaching courses in comparative religion that vocabulary is so important. Particularly in the West it is really difficult to find words to talk about religion that are not inflammatry to someone.
Beyond that, it seems to me that his philosophy pretty much echos what the Dalai Lama has been saying lately as he has taken to emphasizing universal human values rather than Buddhism per se. If two such great minds are thinking along the same lines, then it is a good guess that we are looking at the philosophy if not the religion of the future.
In fact, I heard a very interesting talk at an anthropology conference in China this summer, by a Chinese professor, who spoke on Neo-Confucianism as the answer for China's problems with religion. Rather than calling it secular humanism, he preferred to call it spiritual humanism and thought that it's basic values could serve as the unifying value foundation for all the citizens of China, upon which the ethnic minorities like the Tibetans and Uighurs could lay their own religions.
It was taken for granted by every Sinophile I met at the conference, that China, especially its young people, was suffering from lack of a belief system, having discovered already that rampant materialism doesn't bring the satisfaction they had hoped. Nobody believes in communism any more, but neither they nor the government knows what to replace it with. This Neo-Confucian talk was by the way, the most heavily attended of all the sessions with people sitting on the floor in the aisles and leaning in through the doors and windows.
Interestingly, underground Chinese Christian churches are growing like crazy but so is Chinese interest in Tibetan Buddhism.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 29, 2010 - 05:45am PT
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Those who state in this thread that God could have a plan that requires terrible things to happen may have a point.
It's an exceptionally bad plan then. Hell, I could do better.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 29, 2010 - 08:00am PT
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WB- "Every prisoner is ultimately freed after serving his or her prison term."
?
Life without the possibility of parole!
Death by Lethal injection!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 11:46am PT
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Jan-
"I quite liked his distinction between atheism which has a negative connotation of rejection and its substitution with the word naturalism which stands for something instead of against it."
Hear, hear!
"I have learned from teaching courses in comparative religion that vocabulary is so important. Particularly in the West it is really difficult to find words to talk about religion that are not inflammatry to someone."
Hear, hear!
If you were impressed with Grayling, you can find him in Beyond Belief, 2008.
http://thesciencenetwork.org/programgroup/beyond-belief
Here you will also find other Beyond Belief seminaries. Beyond Belief 2006 is far and away the best.
What comes out of your piece and also the Beyond Belief work is the need for (a) more constructing and (b) less arguing.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 01:19pm PT
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Trip -- Life without the possibility of parole!
Death by Lethal injection!
Death by Lethal injection is the punishment and then that person is freed to start over in next life.
But because you do not understand the soul and how it transmigrates from body to body according to the consciousness it develops you think there is only one life.
This is a very serious defect of modern Christianity which causes very serious problems in how Christianity projects it's consciousness onto the world and misleads.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 01:36pm PT
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how it transmigrates from body to body according to the consciousness it develops
Geez, Brawny, I thought you said you were an engineer on an earlier thread. Equipped with an engineering mind. Engineers arguably more than other group are supposed to respect the relationship between structure and function.
No body (structure), no soul (function). No brain (structure), no mind (function). Sounds like you very much disregard the state-of-the-art in neuroscience and bio-engineering that's underway today in favor of 2,000 year old Buddha conjecture ("speculation").
Adapt...
Respect the relationship between structure and function...
Some guy in Kansas (Scott Roeder) was just found guilty on all counts for murdering a doctor because he "lived up to" the ancient teaching that there is a ghost in the body that drives the body, that vacates the body upon death of the body, that even though the ghost lives on, God hates it when man causes this separation so much he must be killed for it.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 01:55pm PT
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
No wonder you're still in the gym.
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roadman
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 02:32pm PT
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umm isn't this supposed to be about the fact that is evolution?
lots of god hate
god love here. is it really worth it to argue the bible?
Most likely cause people don't know sh#t about evolution and don't pull their heads out to find the facts.
Evolution: change in gene frequency in a population.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 03:37pm PT
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So why all the digression off of evolution?
Evolution (or the Epic of Evolution) brings with it a bunch of other ideas:
(a) that this world is not a God Kingdom (most esp as laid out in the Abrahamic bibles), (b) that there is no "ghost in the machine," that life is physics and chemistry and is flesh-based, flesh-driven, (c) that the basis of good and evil is a natural one, a consequence of Mother Nature unfolding.
It's all this together that's just Damn Hard to adapt to. Made all the harder when American culture has a powerful narrative (ancient theology) pulling all of us in another direction.
Growing pains. A part of all this is growing pains. My dad used to say, when supernaturalist belief (i.e., ancient theology that's so appealing on so many levels) is in your blood, it's next to impossible to get it out. Takes great work.
But climbers are "into" great work. So it's reasonable to be hopeful.
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roadman
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 04:25pm PT
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delusional morons who believe in ghosts.
oh that's perfect for a tee shirt!
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jstan
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 07:06pm PT
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This thread has caused me to be curious about new things.
There are many experts who have studied for years, but humor me, a mere child.
An excerpt:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_story_of_when_buddhism_began
It should be noted that the buddha is not a god nor did he ever say he was. He lived and died like any other person on earth. He was enlightened which made him free from suffering and free from the ignorance of the cause of suffering but he was no more a god than you.
When asked about the question of if there is a god, Budda replied that the question is unimportant. You can not know if there is or isn't a god, you can only serve to reduce your own suffering and the suffering of those around you. Buddha neither denied or confirmed the existence of a god.
Excerpt from Wikipedia:
Siddh?rtha Gautama (Sanskrit; Pali: Siddh?ttha Gotama) was a spiritual teacher from ancient India and the historical founder of Buddhism. He is universally recognized by Buddhists as the Supreme Buddha of our age. The time of his birth and death are uncertain: a majority of 20th century historians date his lifetime from circa 563 BCE to 483 BCE, while some more recent scholars have suggested dates around 410 or 400 BCE for his passing away. This alternative chronology has not yet been accepted by other historians.
Answer
Siddhartha Gautama, (Prince Siddhartha of the Guatama clan ca. 563-483 BC) known as "the buddha" which means "the enlightened one". All buddhists are considered "the buddha" or enlightened ones, if they are successful in the philosophy.
He is not a deity, merely the founder of a school of philosophy based in part on hindu beliefs. He is not worshipped, and statues of buddha are symbolic of different philosophies.
Answer
The realization that the mind is the source of all experience.
Answer
The word 'Buddha' is the past participle of the Pali word bujjhati which means 'awakening' in the sense of arising from the slumber of lower being thus realizing nirvana. Curiously, bujjhati is very much akin to the Greek word anastasis which is usually translated by Christians as 'resurrection'. Anastasis literally means to stand up as in awakening from sleep.
End excerpt
I like this!
No ridiculous infinitely superior beings or absurd stories.
Threatening me if I do not obey someone who, like me, is yet walking around. A person who comes out of nowhere and asserts I need to obey HIM.
And the emphasis is on learning. Improving yourself.
Not fighting with others for gosh who know’s what and for someone else’s benefit.
Maybe this is what HFCS is seeking?
I can even understand the mind being the source of all experience. The material world is experienced through the mind. It is interpreted, translated by the mind. The mind is not the material world. The mind is a tool. Indeed in scientific work you spend half your time trying to root out unrecognized bias. The mind is not a “perfect” tool.
Would you believe it?
A philosophy for adults!
If Buddhism had been called a philosophy instead of a religion, I would have looked it up a long time ago.
Goes to show you.
You just shouldn’t describe something good
using a bad word.
Most valuable thread I have seen on ST.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2010 - 07:12pm PT
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Are you SURE the bible was NOT written by HUMANS?
Would GOD REALLY SAY THIS STUPID ASS STUFF?
GOD Commands His Followers to KILL Damn Near Everything
Kill Sons of Sinners
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
God Will Kill Children
The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
Kill Men, Women, and Children
"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
God Kills all the First Born of Egypt
And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)
Kill Old Men and Young Women
"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)
(Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)
God Will Kill the Children of Sinners
If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)
More Rape and Baby Killing
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 07:18pm PT
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Jstan- Agree with everything you wrote in the post.
Indeed, one of my interests is the role language plays in all this. It can be so tricky-- like route finding on Fantasia at the Leap, Tahoe.
Yeah, many Buddhist scholars prefer the terms education or philosophy in lieu of religion for their belief discipline.
I think it's helpful to distinguish between Original Buddhism and other later, agrandized variants. Many of the latter have deified the Buddha and this has really mucked things up.
What I seek is (1) to distinguish between supernaturalist belief (as maintained by religions) and naturalist belief (under a new name) and (2) to bring innovation to belief based on the modern understanding of things. For one thing, this means more attention to modeling (to building) and less attention to arguing with the supernaturalists.
You say-
And the emphasis is on learning. Improving yourself.
Sounds like a fine organizing principle right there! on which to build a new belief discipline... Under a new name of course...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 07:19pm PT
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C'mon, Norton, quit with all that.
Let's talk about constructing anew...
And who are you responding to. Do you read the thread?
EDIT Sorry Norton. Carry on!
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jstan
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 07:45pm PT
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Norton:
In my last post I neglected to thank you for starting this thread.
Thank you.
HFCS:
Lo these past few weeks I have been ragging on people mercilessly about language. We can't use the words "believe" or "design" anymore. They have been stolen and their meaning changed. People have been saying certain mormons and now catholics are not christian. The word has no meaning. So now I have to say "That Religion."
When I look at what very little I know about "That Religion" and other philosophies something eerie creeps out. As I said, it seems to me Buddhism is structured and packaged for adults. The outlandish story, hell, original sin, snakes, and the huge emphasis on obedience of that religion strikes me as packaging for exposure to very young children. I would bet eighty to ninety percent of lifelong followers of that religion begin at a very early age.
Very eerie.
And directly on topic for this thread.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 29, 2010 - 07:58pm PT
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Wes- "It is now a question of specifics...Basics of evolution, quite easily understood."
Please, specifically explain how something came from nothing. Just the basic question of where did it ORIGINATE!
Wes- "Bunch of delusional morons who believe in ghosts"
What about a bunch of delusional Atheist/evolutionist that believe something(matter)came from nothing! How so? Takes allot of FAITH to BELIEVE that Wes.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 08:25pm PT
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Takes allot of FAITH to BELIEVE that Wes
Reframe it! In the new frame: "Takes a lot of trust to "hold" that, Wes." That's right. But it is a trust (aka faith) based on education and experience. Maybe even decades in the making. It's not a weak blind trust (or faith) that supernaturalists have formulated to their own purposes.
Trip- you need to go to school in the sciences... at least long enough and deep enough to learn what is in their baliwick and what is not.
The cause behind the big bang (a Higher Power, if you like) and Yahweh (the local desert God of the Hebrew people and the Star of the Books of Moses, cf: Amon-Re, Zeus, Marduk, Quetzalcoatl, etc.) are as different as lightning and the lightning bug.
Adapt.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2010 - 08:48pm PT
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Furctos, I am "responding" to the numerous people who post on THIS thread
who take great pain to profess their LITERAL belief in the bible as the
direct word of god.
I feel that, as a supertopo member, I also have the same right as they
do to express my opinion about the literal interpretation of the bible.
Feeling this way, no offense to you Fructose, I have presented sections
of the bible that "seem" to me to be possibly inconsistent with their view.
Is that ok with you?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 08:50pm PT
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Sorry, Norton, carry on.
I guess I was just feeling a little frustrated in the moment.
You see, waaaayyy back in the 80s, when I read the Testaments (not the first time, btw), I compiled by own notes as yours. Still have them, in fact. It was unbelievable what the Books of Moses said (how mean, vindictive, jealous Yahweh was, etc.) yet it seemed everyone about wasn't interested to hear about it or to get any traction from it.
So now, for me at least, it's on to an alternate interest, alternate strategy. That boils down to less arguing, more remodeling. More remodeling, say on a basis of the nature intelligibility principle (that nature works in accordance with laws and we can learn them and apply them) and life guidance and life strategies.
But no doubt the Four Horsemen (I think you know who I'm alluding to here) and you perform a valuable service. Kudos.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 08:55pm PT
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777:
I am not a relativist but I'll try to kick off the answer to your question.
But first a story.
One of the professors at the university I attended had been one of Einstein's two docents. His
sentences in class invariably contained the words "manifestly covariant." A mild little fellow you
would never ever want to cross. We were at a dinner meeting on Infrared Technology nowdays
used in satellites, missiles, and wherever else you choose to look for it. The evening speaker was
having trouble being heard over the whir of a floor fan. Three or four experimental professors
went over to fiddle with the switch to see if they could still the beast, to no noticeable effect.
Then Peter Bergmann, very unobtrusively got up from the table, walked over to the wall and
pulled the plug.
I tell the story because it was then that I learned never ever to underestimate a relativist.
In 1905 Einstein voiced a truly earth shaking hypothesis that the presence of matter actually
distorts physical space. We think so easily in terms of a three axis coordinate system where the
axes are obviously straight lines. Well, the real world is not as we imagine it. Around the time of
WWI measurements of the perihelion of Mercury confirmed that the light from Mercury was
actually being bent as it passed by another celestial body. The timing of the perihelion was
WRONG. Einstein's hypothesis now allows us to use GPS instruments to find where we are on
earth, to an accuracy of feet.
But your question.
"how something came from nothing. Just the basic question of where did it ORIGINATE!"
As I am sure you know Einstein also suggested mass was convertable into energy. At least to the
eye, matter can be made to disappear. I am also sure I don't need to tell you how dramatic
demonstrations of this principle can be. Equal to 100,000,000 tons of TNT, in an instant.
The answer to your question is tied up with Einstein's relativity theory, now confirmed so
thoroughly people are quoting the age of the universe as we know it to four digits. Something
just under 14,000,000,000 earth years. Some 10,000 times further back even than Ardi.
The critical word you used was "WHERE". At the instant of the very strongly confirmed "Big Bang"
model, everything of which we know was located at a single geometric point. Such a thing is
called a "singularity." A place where any equation you write BLOWS UP. Now here is where
Einstein comes in full force. At that instant space was so distorted by all of the mass "WHERE" is a
very big question. I believe some, perhaps all, are saying that point was ALL OF SPACE. There
wasn't anything else. You asked "where?" It appears at this time the answer is - from everywhere.
Had you asked a question as to "WHEN?" the answer would be the same. Time is not a simple
clicking clock either thanks to relativity. It behaves fairly well in different inertial frames( where
there is no acceleration) but there was a lot of acceleration at the Bang. Indeed the Inflationary
Model for the first few nanoseconds after the Bang the present clumpiness of matter in the
universe forces us to assume the thing moved outward faster than the speed of light. Inflation.
Now just as we imagined space was a nice three axis model with straight lines some of us
imagine something called "perfect knowledge" or "absolute truth."
It may give us confidence to think such things exist. But that confidence comes at a price.
"Believing" that now will make your adjustment that much more disturbing when you have to give
up that idea. Better to understand you do not know everything than it is to put down a false
anchor and to be deceived.
It's your choice.
Indeed these days our lack of perfect knowledge is more exciting than any knowledge could
possibly be. Almost nothing I descibed above was known just 100 years ago. Let me ask you.
Do you think you right now are prepared to help answer the huge problems we face here on
earth in the next 100 years?
That's probably about how much time we have.
We don't have another 2000 years.
Edit. Gobee messed up the frame making it hard to read everyone else's stuff. After fixing mine I
also calculated how many times you can fit 6000 years into fourteen billion.
2.3 million times
All of the data we have agrees that your estimate is off by 2.3 million to one.
Pretty perfect huh?
Ardi has been dated to something like 4 million years BP. The solar system is dated at about four
billion years. In that length of time Ardi could have evolved into us some 1000 times.
Judging by what I read in the newspapers, I don't think he did it that often. Had he done it that
many times he would surely have got it right.
You and I are just a first rough draft. Prototypes.
There definitely was lots of time for bacteria, fish, mammals and just about anything else.
Heck, if there were survival value in it by now we would probably have been able to go watch fish
playing badminton.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 29, 2010 - 08:58pm PT
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Fructose!
Nothing created a big bang then there was matter...hmmmmnnnnn.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2010 - 09:00pm PT
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Possibly, yes, it is the best theory the best minds on our planet have
right now.
What's wrong with that?
It sure is NOT "proof" that there is a big guy in the sky.
AND neither is it proof that there is NOT a guy in the sky.
It just is what it is.
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roadman
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 09:06pm PT
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Possibly, yes, it is the best theory the best minds on our planet have
right now.
What's wrong with that?
It sure is NOT "proof" that there is a big guy in the sky.
AND neither is it proof that there is NOT a guy in the sky.
It just is what it is.
Nice! Well said, Norton
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jstan
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 09:22pm PT
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777:
You are satisfied only to know everything. Much of what I described has been discovered since you
were born. If you had constructed some edifice to put into your lack of knowledge, AND if you
wanted to be undeluded, you would now have to give up everything you had constructed. That's
what I was saying at the end.
It's still your choice.
This really reminds me of what used to happen in what, third grade. Two kids fighting would say I
know more than you! To triumph one would say I know EVERYTHING! The truth?
Both knew what third graders know. Happiness and the chance to contribute to others is a matter of
understanding that and in being determined to learn more.
To grow.
Still your choice.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 29, 2010 - 09:28pm PT
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I wish Werner is right, your free when your dead. But the Bible doesn't say that. Your spouse is free to remarry, though!
I believe what the Bible says is truth and like that sage Norwegian says, I eat those words!
I post here because in this life climbing is the coolest thing I ever did, and the people I climbed with are the coolest! But God is the coolest ever! I'm a lazy bum and sometimes I feel like I'll never post here again, I love Jesus and most don't care and worse, but then I remember what He went through for me, I can't stop saying I love Him!
Since it cost a lot to win
and even more to lose
You and me bound to spend some time
wondring what to choose...
Robert Hunter
The Words of Agur
The words of Agur son of Jakeh. The oracle.
Proverbs 30:1-4, The man declares, I am weary, O God;
I am weary, O God, and worn out.
2 Surely I am too stupid to be a man.
I have not the understanding of a man.
3 I have not learned wisdom,
nor have I knowledge of the Holy One.
4 Who has ascended to heaven and come down?
Who has gathered the wind in his fists?
Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name, and what is his son's name?
Surely you know!
Joy Comes with the Morning
A Psalm of David. A song at the dedication of the temple.
Psalm 30, I will extol you, O Lord, for you have drawn me up
and have not let my foes rejoice over me.
2 O Lord my God, I cried to you for help,
and you have healed me.
3 O Lord, you have brought up my soul from Sheol;
you restored me to life from among those who go down to the pit.
4 Sing praises to the Lord, O you his saints,
and give thanks to his holy name.
5 For his anger is but for a moment,
and his favor is for a lifetime.
Weeping may tarry for the night,
but joy comes with the morning.
6 As for me, I said in my prosperity,
“I shall never be moved.”
7 By your favor, O Lord,
you made my mountain stand strong;
you hid your face;
I was dismayed.
8 To you, O Lord, I cry,
and to the Lord I plead for mercy:
9 “What profit is there in my death,
if I go down to the pit?
Will the dust praise you?
Will it tell of your faithfulness?
10 Hear, O Lord, and be merciful to me!
O Lord, be my helper!”
11 You have turned for me my mourning into dancing;
you have loosed my sackcloth
and clothed me with gladness,
12 that my glory may sing your praise and not be silent.
O Lord my God, I will give thanks to you forever!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 29, 2010 - 09:43pm PT
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HFCS!
I have had more than enough unde-grad/post-grad science. And I have a B.S. degree.
BTW- 99.9% of the posters here know who the 4Hmen of A are!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 09:51pm PT
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Trip- then you should get the meaning in Jstan's posts and Norton's post.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 29, 2010 - 09:54pm PT
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jstan- "Reconstruct"
I never met your mother, as far as I am concerned she doesn't exist.
Doesn't mean she doesn't/didn't exist.
That would be the equivalent of what you are asking me to do. It is as real to me as your mother, or my mother are to both of us.
Ask any Christian.
I can understand/relate to your disbelief.
You can't relate to our belief.
The Creator of the universe is fully capable of revealing Himself to you. You won't allow Him to.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 09:57pm PT
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Werner's post prompts me to tell another story.
My first year in grad school I was taking an exam. The teacher assumed we had learned all the
subjects he had lectured upon so he tested us on theories, had I been diligent, I would have picked
up in my independent reading. Throughout the exam a young chinese student in the back was
swearing non stop. He got a forty. I got a zero. I have not the slightest doubt he was more
disappointed in himself than I was in myself.
I learned something one hundred times more valuable than that course material. It is literally
impossible to know the limits of intelligence and the drive to learn. If we do not know those limits
for others we should not assume we know our own. Only one course of action exists. To decide
where it is we wish to go and then to apply every possible effort and every minute available to us -
to get there.
That path is not lined with questions and regrets.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 30, 2010 - 12:01am PT
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I've seen her before.
If I were 20 years younger, she'd be in trouble...
"Blonds for evolution"
-Another fine t-shirt possibility...
Oh, and Dr. F., check out that comment at youtube:
"Debating creationists on the topic of evolution is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon - it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory."
My pick for quote of the day.
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roadman
climber
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Jan 30, 2010 - 01:24am PT
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Theory .... means speculation and guessing. Definitely not the best minds.
The best minds do not guess .....
.....ummm werner, look down, look up, now repeat. OK... just checking to see if your head's still screwed on tight!
Dude, you've got issues. This stuff really floats around in your head on a daily basis? I'd prescribe: Fluovoxamine, amitriptyline then come see me again in 6 months when the voices go away! now don't use any alcohol or CNS depressents while you're on these or it'll throw the whole works out a wack...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 30, 2010 - 01:31am PT
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You guys really were busy over there while I was sleeping away in Japan.
jstan in particular seems to be on a roll.
I'm short on time so will leave you with a highly relevant quote from the Dalai Lama which was forwarded to me by Snow Lion Publications. I get a Dalai Lama quote from them every week.
I believe there is an important distinction to be made between religion and spirituality. Religion I take to be concerned with belief in the claims to salvation of one faith tradition or another--an aspect of which is acceptance of some form of metaphysical or philosophical reality, including perhaps an idea of heaven or hell. Connected with this are religious teachings or dogma, ritual, prayers and so on.
Spirituality I take to be concerned with those qualities of the human spirit--such as love and compassion, patience, tolerance, forgiveness, contentment, a sense of responsibility, a sense of harmony, which bring happiness to both self and others. While ritual and prayer, along with questions of nirvana and salvation are directly connected with religious faith, these inner qualities need not be, however.
There is thus no reason why the individual should not develop them, even to a high degree, without recourse to any religious or metaphysical belief system. This is why I sometimes say religion is something we can perhaps do without. What we cannot do without are these basic spiritual qualities.
--from "The Pocket Dalai Lama" by the Dalai Lama, compiled and edited by Mary Craig .
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jstan
climber
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Jan 30, 2010 - 02:25am PT
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Jan:
Don't know as I am on a roll but I love the stuff I am hearing said overseas. The words are being defined so I know what is being said. I would have hated living in Rome at the end.
Wes:
Really exciting advances in this month's Physics Today. I have queried them to see if I may post selected articles.
For the first time we are beginning to get some angular resolution on the positions of sources for cosmic rays. Bigger detector arrays. Modelling wise it appears the particles from supernovae are making multiple passes through explosion shock waves.
And even more spectacular a summary article on detection of gravity waves. Timing variations of extremely regular pulses from very distant pulsars are becoming sufficiently studied to offer promise that in 10 years we may be able to study gravity waves in the same way we have mined information from all wavelengths of light. If so we may well be able to study dark energy and dark matter, things that make up most of the universe's contents. We may be standing on the brink of seeing the bulk of what is in the universe for the very first time.
Data suggesting the universe’s rate of expansion is increasing not decreasing implies we need not look forward to multiple big bang cycles. We are only going to get thinner, colder and ever more distant. At least as based on the data so far in hand. This is apparently going to be our only trip. Frankly, I don’t know how the people doing this work are able to get any sleep.
I think this 200 year period, if we manage to survive, will be seen as a blooming of human knowledge comparable to the social advances made during the renaissance. Most remarkable. We are privileged to be here to see it.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 30, 2010 - 06:26am PT
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I personally think he rather over romanticizes the ancient Greeks.
Haha! That happens a lot.
Yes, the Dalai Lama is a wonderful example. Local radio interviewed his brother, who lives in Vancouver, and whatever they call their outlook, religion, philosophy, whatnot, they are good people with a great sense of humor and matter-of-fact approach.
Thanks to jstan for recent contributions. One of our kids, the math talent, got a brief message from a friend that went like this: "If you had told me on New Year's Eve ten years ago that today I would be driving a VW to a [gravitational interferometer] in rural South Carolina(?), I would not have been surprised."
edit: now think it was a laser interferometry gravitational observatory but still not sure which southeastern US state
Or, as friends in Africa would say when amused by Western planning for the future, "But what of now?"
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 31, 2010 - 12:34am PT
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Proverbs 31:1-9, The words of King Lemuel. An oracle that his mother taught him:
2 What are you doing, my son? What are you doing, son of my womb?
What are you doing, son of my vows?
3 Do not give your strength to women,
your ways to those who destroy kings.
4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel,
it is not for kings to drink wine,
or for rulers to take strong drink,
5 lest they drink and forget what has been decreed
and pervert the rights of all the afflicted.
6 Give strong drink to the one who is perishing,
and wine to those in bitter distress;
7 let them drink and forget their poverty
and remember their misery no more.
8 Open your mouth for the mute,
for the rights of all who are destitute.
9 Open your mouth, judge righteously,
defend the rights of the poor and needy.
Into Your Hand I Commit My Spirit
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David.
Psalm 31, In you, O Lord, do I take refuge;
let me never be put to shame;
in your righteousness deliver me!
2 Incline your ear to me;
rescue me speedily!
Be a rock of refuge for me,
a strong fortress to save me!
3 For you are my rock and my fortress;
and for your name's sake you lead me and guide me;
4 you take me out of the net they have hidden for me,
for you are my refuge.
5 Into your hand I commit my spirit;
you have redeemed me, O Lord, faithful God.
6 I hate those who pay regard to worthless idols,
but I trust in the Lord.
7 I will rejoice and be glad in your steadfast love,
because you have seen my affliction;
you have known the distress of my soul,
8 and you have not delivered me into the hand of the enemy;
you have set my feet in a broad place.
9 Be gracious to me, O Lord, for I am in distress;
my eye is wasted from grief;
my soul and my body also.
10 For my life is spent with sorrow,
and my years with sighing;
my strength fails because of my iniquity,
and my bones waste away.
11 Because of all my adversaries I have become a reproach,
especially to my neighbors,
and an object of dread to my acquaintances;
those who see me in the street flee from me.
12 I have been forgotten like one who is dead;
I have become like a broken vessel.
13 For I hear the whispering of many—
terror on every side!—
as they scheme together against me,
as they plot to take my life.
14 But I trust in you, O Lord;
I say, “You are my God.”
15 My times are in your hand;
rescue me from the hand of my enemies and from my persecutors!
16 Make your face shine on your servant;
save me in your steadfast love!
17 O Lord, let me not be put to shame,
for I call upon you;
let the wicked be put to shame;
let them go silently to Sheol.
18 Let the lying lips be mute,
which speak insolently against the righteous
in pride and contempt.
19 Oh, how abundant is your goodness,
which you have stored up for those who fear you
and worked for those who take refuge in you,
in the sight of the children of mankind!
20 In the cover of your presence you hide them
from the plots of men;
you store them in your shelter
from the strife of tongues.
21 Blessed be the Lord,
for he has wondrously shown his steadfast love to me
when I was in a besieged city.
22 I had said in my alarm,
“I am cut off from your sight.”
But you heard the voice of my pleas for mercy
when I cried to you for help.
23 Love the Lord, all you his saints!
The Lord preserves the faithful
but abundantly repays the one who acts in pride.
24 Be strong, and let your heart take courage,
all you who wait for the Lord!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2010 - 01:04am PT
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How GOD commands us to KILL, straight from the Word of God, the BIBLE.
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2010 - 01:06am PT
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GOD COMMANDS US TO KILL CHILDREN, direct from god to YOU
The murdering of children:
Leviticus 20:9 “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.”
Judges 11:30-40 Jephthah killed his young daughter (his only child) by burning her alive as a burnt sacrifice to the lord for he commanded it.
Psalms 137:8-9 Prayer/song of vengeance “0 daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.”
2 Kings 6:28-29 “And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.”
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 “If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”
Judges 19:24-29 “Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go. Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man’s house where her lord was, till it was light. And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold. And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place. And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.” To put it very bluntly this poor, young lady was murdered by her mate for being raped.
Exodus 12:29 God killed, intentionally, every first-born child of every family in Egypt, simply because he was upset at the Pharaoh. And god caused the Pharaoh’s actions in the first place. Since when is it appropriate to murder children for their ruler’s forced action?
Exodus 20:9-10 God commands death for cursing out ones parents Joshua 8 God commanded the deaths of 12,000 men, women, and children of Ai. They were all slain in the ambush that was planned by god.
2 Kings 2:23-24 The prophet Elisha, was being picked on by some young boys from the city because of his bald head. The prophet turned around and cursed them in the Lords name. Then, two female bears came out of the woods and killed forty-two of them. You would think that God could understand that sometimes the youthful make childish jokes. Calling someone “bald head” is far from being worthy of death.
Leviticus 26:30 “And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.”
1 Samuel 15:11-18 God repents of having made Saul king since Saul refused to carry out God’s commandments (i.e., Saul refused to murder all the innocent women and children.) At least god realizes what an immoral, murderous pig he is on this one.
I Kings 16:34 Laying the foundation for a city using your firstborn child and using your youngest son to set up the gates.
Isaiah 13:15-18 If God can find you, he will “thrust you through,” smash your children “to pieces” before your eyes, and rape your wife.
Jeremiah 11:22-23 God will kill the young men in war and starve their children to death.
Jeremiah 19:7-9 God will make parents eat their own children, and friends eat each other.
Lamentations 2:20-22 God gets angry and mercilessly torments and kills everyone, young and old. He even causes women to eat their children.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 31, 2010 - 01:10am PT
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Cool!
Hey, so who's this Gobee poster?
What kind of Christian is he, fundamentalist traditional Christian
or modern new-age "renascent" Christian? Seems from all this per diem stuff he posts, he's fundamentalist traditional?
modern renascent Christian: one who doesn't accept the "divinity of Jesus" claim (aka Jesus is God claim) or, for that matter, any of the supernaturalist doctrines, but lives the Christian narrative and/or Christian philosophy and therefore identifies with the term. Maybe because it works for him, for instance, or provides Comfort in hard times.
-There is a world of difference between fundamentalist traditional and modern renascent.
Basic principles: It IS important to always know what kind of Christian we have before us. Or what kind of Muslim we have before us. For any dialog to be meaningful. Or not.
P.S. Talk about per diem (per day)... Just read the first 100 posts. I'll do 100 every day till I catch up to the last post. Some good stuff in there! (Although for really the first time on the Taco, found myself in total disagreement with our mythological hero Largo. He needs to re-read the neuroscience.) In the end, Random House should get involved-- edit and print-- yeah, why not!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 31, 2010 - 06:32am PT
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Dr. F.-
I find it odd that you, an atheist, would feel it necessary to pass judgement on the Dalai Lama and declare that he's not enlightened. Why would you care one way or the other? That's about as ridiculous as the fundamentalists on this thread passing judgement on the other contributors by telling them they're going burn in hell forever.
From where I sit, you're mirror images of each other.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 31, 2010 - 08:26am PT
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Norton-
To me there's nothing more powerful than direct quotes. It's been so many years since I've read the Old Testament that I'd forgotten how many of those violent ones there are. I know I was turned off as a child when first confronted with them and have thought ever since that Christians would be better off to disassociate themselves altogether and let the teachings of Jesus stand on their own. The few good stories of human foibles in the Old Testament are not worth the overall impact the rest of it has if you actually read it all.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 31, 2010 - 10:11am PT
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Jan wrote- To me there's nothing more powerful than direct quotes.
Even so, not powerful enough, it seems, to move-- in intellect, in spirit-- the fundamentalist traditional Christian. Go figure.
A perennial mystery to me since the 1980s. (When I first read through them, that is, Norton's OT quotes.) But what more can one do nowadays other than nod his head in disbelief and disappointment and move on with his or her own belief discipline practice.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 31, 2010 - 11:46am PT
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Interesting how "enlightenment" has disparate meanings vis a vis East and West.
"A final blessed state free from ignorance, desire and suffering"
or else
"To use one’s reason, intellect, and wisdom without the guidance of another."
And never the twain shall meet?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 31, 2010 - 12:25pm PT
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In honor of Howard Zinn, who encouraged "looking critically" at our cultural fixtures, institutions and what drives them... a thought for the day:
Who's the more "insane"? Who's the more "mentally ill"?
(a) the fundamentalist Christian who "lives up to" Jehovah's Word* (in particular the Laws it contains in the OT) in action or...
(b) the (other kind of) fundamentalist Christian who says the same thing (it is God Jehovah's Word) yet doesn't "live up to" God Jehovah's Word in action.
*Scott Roeden (found guilty in Kansas of murder in Jan 2010) comes to mind, here... he was called insane, mentally ill, because he "lived up to," because he practiced, God Jehovah's edict in the OT: an eye for an eye.
Gandi- You must be the change you seek in the world.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 31, 2010 - 12:40pm PT
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Any kind of fundamentalism ends up being a house of cards. They all ignore the obvious fact that if any one of them was truly the perfect revealed wisdom of some omnipotent being, then we would all instinctively know it; it would simply be a fact, like the existence of the sun--which is most likely what got the whole train of "mental speculation" rolling in the first place. A big ball of burning hydrogen floating in space, now there's something no one can deny.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 31, 2010 - 01:18pm PT
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Let me ask a question?
In the year 1 was the culture in the middle eastern region as mean and full of hatred as is expressed in the old testament?
Hard to believe. It was hard and then, just as is true now, people were being abused by those in power. But was this really the way it was in daily life? Surely there are historians out there who can answer?
Shall we presume it was not?
Then are we not safe also to presume that a young boy with a good heart growing up then might determine to do something to make the perceived guidance conform more closely to what people lived? This I can "believe."
Two thousand years later the same people always in search of power have to a degree, caused the same kind of perceived guidance to be infused into a book we know as the bible. Obedience. Obedience. Obedience.
We need each to look to ourselves. Ask what it is that we actually live. Ask how we can make the guidance conform more closely to what we live and admire.
Try to travel, in our own way, the path he chose.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 31, 2010 - 01:55pm PT
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Anyone can be a Christian, but there is only one Christ, who came out of Heaven! If you take Jesus out of Christianity then it is just religion! It is by His mercy through faith that we are saved, to love God, your brother, and to deny yourself and follow Him, to do what you know is right no matter what, is spirituality!
The Beginning of Knowledge
Proverbs 1:1-7, The proverbs of Solomon, son of David, king of Israel:
2 To know wisdom and instruction,
to understand words of insight,
3 to receive instruction in wise dealing,
in righteousness, justice, and equity;
4 to give prudence to the simple,
knowledge and discretion to the youth—
5 Let the wise hear and increase in learning,
and the one who understands obtain guidance,
6 to understand a proverb and a saying,
the words of the wise and their riddles.
7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge;
fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Blessed Are the Forgiven
A Maskil of David.
Psalm 32, Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven,
whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man against whom the Lord counts no iniquity,
and in whose spirit there is no deceit.
3 For when I kept silent, my bones wasted away
through my groaning all day long.
4 For day and night your hand was heavy upon me;
my strength was dried up as by the heat of summer. Selah
5 I acknowledged my sin to you,
and I did not cover my iniquity;
I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the Lord,”
and you forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah
6 Therefore let everyone who is godly
offer prayer to you at a time when you may be found;
surely in the rush of great waters,
they shall not reach him.
7 You are a hiding place for me;
you preserve me from trouble;
you surround me with shouts of deliverance. Selah
8 I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go;
I will counsel you with my eye upon you.
9 Be not like a horse or a mule, without understanding,
which must be curbed with bit and bridle,
or it will not stay near you.
10 Many are the sorrows of the wicked,
but steadfast love surrounds the one who trusts in the Lord.
11 Be glad in the Lord, and rejoice, O righteous,
and shout for joy, all you upright in heart!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 31, 2010 - 02:08pm PT
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Jstan, much context can be gained from examining the law codes that preceded the Ten Commandments. (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_legal_codes for starters)
Most of these laws were a byproduct of the rise of settled agriculture; others focused on perennial problems of sex and violence. They all indicate that, contrary to the bible-thumpers, golden-rule styles of ethics and morality were clearly conceived and codified as soon as people settled down in stable agricultural communities. Moses did nothing new except to refer authority over these things to his peculiar god, rather than to secular powers. As the leader of a tribe of wandering nomads, it probably seemed like a good idea at the time.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 31, 2010 - 02:21pm PT
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Cintune:
Now, we are getting somewhere!
Thank you.
Clearly when agriculture was being adopted, there would have been a mixture of the two cultures. Indeed even in our west when barbed wire was first used the two cultures were in substantial conflict.
I think an understanding of these temporal influences could, even today, help us to interpret "religion" and permit us actually "to read the bible."
Many of our problems today, as regards religion, may have arisen because we have entirely lost the context relevant to the rise of that religion.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 31, 2010 - 02:27pm PT
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This life on earth is temporal, this is just the beginning, Heaven awaits!
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jstan
climber
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Jan 31, 2010 - 02:32pm PT
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Gobee:
Was your post triggered simply by my use of the word "temporal?"
Edit.
Each of us needs to take care we are not functioning "reflexively."
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 31, 2010 - 02:44pm PT
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"Indeed... even in our west when barbed wire was first used the two cultures were in substantial conflict."
Barbed wire is used to keep people and animals in or out!
Jesus is inclusive, He will accept all who come to Him!
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MH2
climber
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Jan 31, 2010 - 04:40pm PT
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It's an exceptionally bad plan then. Hell, I could do better.
I think I could, too. Why could God have not devoted at least a verse or two in the Bible to indoor plumbing?
I don't know if I'd be up to keeping the planets round, etc., though.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 31, 2010 - 05:54pm PT
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"Each of us needs to take care we are not functioning "reflexively."
I believe there is a God and His Son Jesus, I also believe in Him, meaning that He loves us like a Father and only wants the BEST for US All, his ways are higher then are ways and at most points I have to defer to His ways because I only know what I know and He knows all, Father Knows Best!
Like a teenager I have "reflexively" rebelled against God, and just wanted to do what I wanted to do, thinking I might be missing out, but now think that what God tells us to do in the Bible is for our own good!
"I think I could, too. Why could God have not devoted at least a verse or two in the Bible to indoor plumbing?"
Mark 5:24-34, And a great crowd followed him and thronged about him. 25 And there was a woman who had had a discharge of blood for twelve years, 26 and who had suffered much under many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was no better but rather grew worse. 27 She had heard the reports about Jesus and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his garment. 28 For she said, “If I touch even his garments, I will be made well.” 29 And immediately the flow of blood dried up, and she felt in her body that she was healed of her disease. 30 And Jesus, perceiving in himself that power had gone out from him, immediately turned about in the crowd and said, “Who touched my garments?” 31 And his disciples said to him, “You see the crowd pressing around you, and yet you say, ‘Who touched me?’” 32 And he looked around to see who had done it. 33 But the woman, knowing what had happened to her, came in fear and trembling and fell down before him and told him the whole truth. 34 And he said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace, and be healed of your disease.”
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 31, 2010 - 06:47pm PT
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Uh, what?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2010 - 07:20pm PT
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Are you REALLY SURE the bible is the direct word of god, and NOT written by humans?
Top Ten Biblical Contradictions. GOD OR HUMANS, WHO WROTE THE BIBLE?
Theological doctrines:
1. God is satisfied with his works
Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works.
Gen 6:6
2. God dwells in chosen temples
2 Chron 7:12,16
God dwells not in temples
Acts 7:48
3. God dwells in light
Tim 6:16
God dwells in darkness
1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2
4. God is seen and heard
Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
Ex 24:9-11
God is invisible and cannot be heard
John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
5. God is tired and rests
Ex 31:17
God is never tired and never rests
Is 40:28
6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all
things
Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8
7. God knows the hearts of men
Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
God tries men to find out what is in their heart
Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12
8. God is all powerful
Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
God is not all powerful
Judg 1:19
9. God is unchangeable
James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
God is changeable
Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
Ex 33:1,3,17,14
10. God is just and impartial
Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25
God is unjust and partial
Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jan 31, 2010 - 07:29pm PT
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God loves us.....
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 31, 2010 - 07:46pm PT
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Context!
Proverbs 23:29-35, Who has woe? Who has sorrow?
Who has strife? Who has complaining?
Who has wounds without cause?
Who has redness of eyes?
30 Those who tarry long over wine;
those who go to try mixed wine.
31 Do not look at wine when it is red,
when it sparkles in the cup
and goes down smoothly.
32 In the end it bites like a serpent
and stings like an adder.
33 Your eyes will see strange things,
and your heart utter perverse things.
34 You will be like one who lies down in the midst of the sea,
like one who lies on the top of a mast.
35 “They struck me,” you will say, “but I was not hurt;
they beat me, but I did not feel it.
When shall I awake?
I must have another drink.”
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2010 - 08:34pm PT
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Commandments From Hell, or God, or maybe HUMANS?
1st. Commandment, Exodus 20:3 “Thou shalt have no other gods before me”. Old Testament punishment - Deuteronomy 17:1-5 “And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heavens, which I have not commanded. Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing and shalt stone them with stones, till they die”. Deuteronomy 13:6-10, “If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is of thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. Thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God." Exodus 22:20 “He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed”. New Testament punishment - Mark 16:16 “He that believeth not, shall be damned”.
2nd. Commandment, Exodus 20:4 “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water below.” Old Testament punishment- Deuteronomy 27: 1 5 “Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image.” That’s right kids don’t EVER draw, sculpt or paint or else god will curse you. Wanna be an artist, a photographer, take a picture of yourself or family? TOO BAD, God says no! You better drop out of art class before he smites you with boils.
3rd. Commandment, Exodus 20:7 “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain”. Old Testament punishment - Leviticus 24:16 “And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death”, New Testament punishment - Matthew 12:32 “Whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come”. Mark 3:29 - “He that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgivness, but is in danger of eternal damnation”.
4th. Commandment, Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy”. Old Testament punishment - Exodus 31:15 “Whosoever shall work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death”. Numbers 15:32. “And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the Sabbath day…And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.”
5th. Commandment, Exodus 20:12 “Honour thy father and thy mother”. Old Testament punishment - Exodus 21:15-17 “And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death”. More punishment - Exodus 21:17 “And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death”.
6th. Commandment, Exodus 20:13 “Thou shalt not kill”. Strangely enough this is a commandment despite all the punishments that require death in the New Testament and the Old Testament. How can thou not kill when thou is commanded to kill at the same time? This hypocrisy should be pointed out if the ten commandments are posted in schools, court rooms and buildings of legislation. The confusion of this commandment would surely bring capitol punishment into question.
7th. Commandment, Exodus 20:14 “Thou shalt not commit adultery”. Old Testament punishment - Leviticus 20:10 “And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death”.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 31, 2010 - 08:43pm PT
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The so called Christians don't follow the tenth commandment at all.
They maintain industrialized slaughterhouses.
They kill animals and say the animals have no soul but they, (the Christians) do and it's ok to eat them.
Let us kill their dogs, eat them, and say it doesn't matter because their dog doesn't have a soul and we humans have dominion over animals, such a crock.
They'd scream bloody murder if you killed their dog.
They misinterpret the tenth commandment to be murder. Well then you are murdering animals.
The rascals will then say the vegetarians are murdering vegetables and fruits, hahaha
Such is the way of hypocrisy ......
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 31, 2010 - 08:58pm PT
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What Defiles a Person
Matthew 15:10-11, And he called the people to him and said to them, “Hear and understand: it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.”
What Defiles a Person
Mark 14:14-23, And he called the people to him again and said to them, “Hear me, all of you, and understand: 15 There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him.” 17 And when he had entered the house and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. 18 And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, 19 since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.) 20 And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. 21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 31, 2010 - 09:14pm PT
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The River of Life
Revelation 22:1-2, Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Vegetarians in Heaven?!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2010 - 09:57pm PT
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The River Of Death: Sex Slaves and how God wants them treated:
Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2010 - 09:57pm PT
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Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)
"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
Once again God approves of forcible rape.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 31, 2010 - 10:05pm PT
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John 8:1-11, but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. 3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4 they said to him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5 Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?” 6 This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 7 And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground. 9 But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10 Jesus stood up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” 11 She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.”
Don't do to others you wouldn't want done to you! (a)
Do unto others as you would want done unto you! (b)
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 31, 2010 - 10:08pm PT
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So if an "oldbook" Christian carried out that last deed cited by Normon-- would he be insane or mentally ill? --the same adjectives many used to label Scott Roeden, the "killer of the baby killer."
Would it be right to (i) declare him insane or mentally ill (as well as criminal), (ii) lock him away, forget about him? forget about the issue and move on? Would it be right to (iii) NOT CRITICALLY EXAMINE the circumstances any deeper?
(a) oldbook Christians: Christians who take guidance from the Old Testament.
(b) newbook Christians: Christians who take guidance from the New Testament.
Food for thought: Wasn't Scott Roeden a rare bird in today's society? meaning he was serious old-school -- a serious oldbook Christian who believed Obedience to God Jehovah means practicing (through action) His edicts?
And if we do call him "insane" or "mentally ill" isn't it for another reason altogether? because he carried around in his head antiquated bronze-age models for (you guessed it) how the world works and how life works?
But through all this, I'm thankful.
I'm thankful America doesn't have as many oldbook faithful as the Arab world. I'm thankful for evolution, in this case cultural evolution, esp since the Renaissance. In America, I'm thankful oldbook Christians are giving way to newbook Christians.
Gandi- Be the change you seek in the world.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2010 - 10:32pm PT
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When Will GOD STOP ORDERING All the Killing?
The Bible is the direct word of GOD.
Kill those who are not Christian or Jewish:
You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20
Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10
Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16
Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7
Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13
Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20
Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11
Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude 5
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 31, 2010 - 10:37pm PT
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Historically speaking, the oldest Christian churches (Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, Armenian, Chaldean, Assyrian, Nestorian, Mar Thome) have all understood that the New Testament superseded the Old and have used the Old sparingly, citing only the best parables and sayings from the Old in their services and sermons.
The Protestants 400 years ago began putting more emphasis on all the scripture as a whole, but also picked and chose. Only at the beginning of the 20th century, when the term fundamentalist was coined, did a specific group of Protestants begin to maintain that every word was the inerrant word of God. This is a very modern and very American understanding. Something like 99% of the other Christians in the world regard it as a kind of heresy.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 31, 2010 - 10:39pm PT
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Mark 6:11, And if any place will not receive you and they will not listen to you, when you leave, shake off the dust that is on your feet as a testimony against them.” Norton?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 31, 2010 - 10:40pm PT
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You are right, Jan, regarding your first paragraph. And what does this show? Humans being all too human. This practice lets all the crap of the OT (the atrocities, the injustices, the deceptions, etc.) succeed as necessary (for the Iagos of the world) by flying under the radar. Shame! Well, thank goodness, growing numbers are saying, basta, enough. Of the excuse making, too.
Regarding your second paragraph: How disappointing. I also have studied the Church down through the centuries. From an earlier thread, you indicated you taught comparative religion?! Where'd you learn about the history of Christianity, in a Christian seminary?! Sorry, but being the good writer you are, your thoughtfulness on other threads, you should know better. Start with burning of William T., the burning of Bruno, books like malleus maleficarum, etc.
P.S. I know about fundamentalist Christianity (original Christianity, medieval Christianity, whatever you want to call it), my own Grandmother from Belvue KS was a diehard bible person, bible student, believing it all to the letter-- no differently from umpteen million illiterates through European medieval ages.
No excuses for its history. No cherry-picking. Not by growing millions. Thanks internet-driven info age. But you go ahead and cherry pick the history and the perspectives if that's how you want to play it.
But how fitting at this time to suggest to you to read some Howard Zinn, he's a historian (just died), who wrote of the dangers of cherry pickin perspectives, points of view, etc.
Jan wrote- Only at the beginning of the 20th century, when the term fundamentalist was coined, did a specific group of Protestants begin to maintain that every word was the inerrant word of God. This is a very modern and very American understanding. Something like 99% of the other Christians in the world regard it as a kind of heresy.
That's as bogus as the truth-claim the Egyptians bombed Pearl Harbor.
EDIT And obviously the usage of fundamentalist would be new. Modern culture needed a term to contrast with moderate Christian or new-age Christian. Analogy: acoustic as in acoustic guitar is new, needed to contrast with electric guitar when the latter emerged. But that hardly means acoustic guitars didn't exist before electric guitars! It's the way language is, the way it works.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2010 - 11:02pm PT
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How is this one, Gobbee?
God really gets off on human sacrifice, it thrills him to no end:
The Bible, especially the Old Testament, is filled with numerous stories of animal and human sacrifice. God, we are told, likes the pleasing aroma of burning flesh. Animal sacrifice is much more common than human sacrifice, but both occur and are "pleasing to the Lord".
Genesis, the first book of the Bible, has Abraham preparing to sacrifice his son to God. "Take your son, your only son – yes, Isaac, whom you love so much – and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you." (Genesis 22:1-18) Abraham takes his own son up on a mountain and builds an altar upon which to burn him. He even lies to his son and has him help build the altar. Then Abraham ties his son to the altar and puts a knife to his throat. He then hears God tell him this was just a test of his faith. However, God still wanted to smell some burnt flesh so he tells Abraham to burn a ram.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 31, 2010 - 11:02pm PT
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The evolution of religion on this planet as discovered by Anthropology:
Hunters and Gatherers, Pastoral Nomads, Horticulturalists = Animism, Magical, Mythological religions. The oldest example of religion is Neanderthals about 150,000 years ago.
Animism = Nature worship
Mythological = Creation Account of God, Man, and the Universe
Magical = Shamans with special powers who talk to the spirit world
Genesis is the mythological element of the Abrahamic religions.
Magical religion is shown in the story of Jacob tying knotted sticks and placing them in water holes to cause more spotted sheep to be born after making a deal with his father-in-law Jacob, that he could keep all the black and spotted sheep.
Animistic religions frequently feature ideas of purity and pollution of which there are many in the Torah, the first five books of the Old Testament. Frequently these take the form of food taboos though these taboos have been shown to actually be ecologically very sound ideas. Likewise ideas of bathing and childbirth.
The Middle East before oil was one of the most inhospitable places on earth. Only the tough survived in the fight for scarce water holes and arable land. The Old Testament and Koran reflect this.
......................................................................
Agricultural religions = reverential
They are labeled reverential by Anthropologists as they stress the vast difference between God(s) and human beings, reflecting the new hierarchy of humans necessary to organize society when agriculture enables so many more of them to survive and crowd together in cities.
Religion goes from a source of group identity where either men or women can be leaders to male dominated hierarchies which emphasize literacy for the proper interpretation of scripture and ritual. Priests are the intermediaries and soon manipulate both power and economics.
Typically, the head of state is also the head of the religion, a god on earth or a representative of God. The ancient Egyptians and Incas are a perfect example though the belief persisted in modern day China until the 1930's and Japan until 1945.
Agricultural religions = transcendental reactions
All of these hypocritical and oppressive hierarchies elicited spiritual reactions. The Old Testament prophets were reacting to the Jewish establishment which became reverential after the return from Egypt and the building of the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem. Jesus of course continued this tradition. Overturning the table of the money lenders in the Temple at Jerusalem being a prime example.
Buddha occupies a similar position in opposition to the Brahmin hierarchy in India.
Christianity as a whole became a reverential religion when Constantine made it the Roman state religion.
...................................................................
18th Century Secular ideologies = industrial Age
Marxism, Fascism, Democracy, Sociology, Psychology etc.
..................................................................
21st Century trends
1) Syncretism. Choosing the best of several
2) Cultural pluralism. Recognizing they all contain truth and are just different paths
3) Experiential. The search for inner experiences away from institutions
4) Fundamentalist backlash at too much change too fast.
................................................................
Religions of transition when two cultures meet and conflict or one overwhelms the other:
Syncretism, Nativism, Cargo Cults, Millenarial-Messiah cults, Revolutions
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 31, 2010 - 11:33pm PT
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"How is this one, Gobbee?"
God is a Holy God! He sent His Son as a sacrifice once and for all! If He didn't no one could be saved!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 31, 2010 - 11:39pm PT
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Fructose-
I was writing about a particular over all interpretation of the Bible, a theological issue based in part on other issues like the veracity of translations.
You are writing about atrocities which occurred as the result of medieval Catholic church power holders feeling that their power was threatened by alternative interpretations of scripture and philosophy.
The medieval battle was over the source of authority, and the perceived threat to a political and religious edifice based on both scripture and Greek philosophy. When Galileo, argued that the earth went around the sun, he was contradicting Aristotle and the melding together of the Bible and Greek philosophy which had held together for over a thousand years, not just scripture.
The Catholic church erroneously thought that everything would come apart if any one part of it was shown to be incorrect (the same mistake the Protestant fundamentalists are currently making). Centuries later, the Catholic Church is still here, the largest denomination of Christianity in the world, and it has made the declaration that Christian faith and evolution are compatible.
It is however, still trying to maintain the primacy of males over females in my estimation, by focussing so much on sexual issues like divorce, birth control, abortion, male priests only etc. Interestingly, the branch of Christianity losing members most rapidly however, are the mainstream Protestants who based their faith on scripture alone. A literal interpretation is not possible for thinking people and they are now stranded between the fundamentalists or accepting the older Christian consensus that there are other sources of authority such as tradition and ritual, or they are becoming New Age and Renascent Christians.
The Catholic church cleverly is continuing to grow by giving up on the educated, developed world, and focussing on poor developing countries which it makes even poorer with its polices on birth control. This can only last a generation or two however, until those areas of the world become educated enough to ask the same questions which brought disbelief and rebellion in the West.
Any way you look at it, Christianity is in trouble unless it makes major changes. It will either change or fall from its own internal contradictions. The hostile accusations of atheists will have little or no impact on what happens.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2010 - 11:42pm PT
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What kind of god would order his own son to be tortured and die?
Answer: A god made up in the heads of really backward and ignorant people.
Gobbee, let's you and I agree to stop posting sections from the bible?
We are not converting anyone to our point of view, so let's just stop?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 31, 2010 - 11:48pm PT
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I think Jan has it pretty much right...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Christians
Fundamentalist Christianity, also known as Christian fundamentalism or fundamentalist evangelicalism, is a movement that arose mainly within British and American Protestantism in the late 19th and early 20th centuries among conservative evangelical Christians, who, in a reaction to liberal theology, actively asserted that the following ideas were fundamental to the Christian faith: the inerrancy of the Bible, Sola Scriptura, the virgin birth of Christ, the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, the bodily resurrection of Jesus, and the imminent personal return of Jesus Christ. Some who hold these beliefs reject the label of "fundamentalism", seeing it as a pejorative term for historic Christian doctrine,[1] while to others it has become a banner of pride. Such Christians prefer to use the term fundamental as opposed to fundamentalist (e.g., Independent Fundamental Baptist, Independent Fundamental Baptist Association of Michigan, and Independent Fundamental Churches of America).[2]
see The Fundamentals: A Testimony to the Truth
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 31, 2010 - 11:53pm PT
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No Jan, I wrote of your bogus claim:
Only at the beginning of the 20th century, when the term fundamentalist was coined, did a specific group of Protestants begin to maintain that every word was the inerrant word of God. This is a very modern and very American understanding. Something like 99% of the other Christians in the world regard it as a kind of heresy.
And now I write another:
The hostile accusations of atheists will have little or no impact on what happens.
Written with such certitude. Well, I'd take that bet. Time will tell. When that large demographic that currently assembles under the term atheist gets with the program and redefines itself-- under another name and language, under an alternative belief discipline model, we shall see the impact. And in this new era, I have a high level of confidence historians will see the "atheists" as a major factor in the mix.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 31, 2010 - 11:54pm PT
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Dr. F-
I don't find labels very useful especially for multi cultural people like myself, but if Gobee's interpretation is correct, then I too am among the doomed.
I say this with a chuckle however, as I don't believe it for a second even. I spent my early childhood in Texas so I heard and rejected his interpretations many years ago.
I tuned out his kind of interpretations by about the age of 5. The turning point for me was being told that all the children in China were going to burn for eternity because they had never heard of Jesus. I knew already that could not be right.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 31, 2010 - 11:58pm PT
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I don't find labels very useful especially for multi cultural people like myself.
Another sloppy statement. Reframe it: I don't find bad labels very useful... I don't find outdated labels very useful. I don't find vague labels or ill-defined labels very useful. Your name is a label. Climber is a label. Boy is a label. Every noun in the language is a "label."
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"fundamental to the Christian faith: the inerrancy of the Bible, Sola Scriptura, the virgin birth of Christ, the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, the bodily resurrection of Jesus, and the imminent personal return of Jesus Christ."
Amen Brother!
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WBraun
climber
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"..... all the children in China were going to burn for eternity because they had never heard of Jesus."
Statements like that will surely create atheism.
No sane person will ever accept such a statement.
Even Jesus Christ himself would not accept .....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Ed- C'mon, did you read the whole page for context. That wiki piece concerns the term, the language. The earlier context of the thread was written in regard to whether early and medieval Christians in the villages and on the farms were literalist or not. Jan is apparently under the impression Christians of these periods by and large didn't have a literal take of the scriptures, that a "literal take" is a modern, largely American invention! So, two different issues here.
Morever, she says I was speaking of the political leadership, governments, rulers and such. This is incorrect. I had in mind the context: the illiterate masses in the villages and on the farms.
See the analogy between "fundamentalist" and "acoustic" I made. This may clarify...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Time will tell. When that large demographic redefines itself-- under another name and language, under an alternative belief discipline model, we shall see the impact.
If you are referring to constructing a new religion like naturalism I would agree.
Be aware however, that in order for it to be more than just another interesting idea, you will have to become an institution and in due time will get bogged down with all the foibles of religious institutions.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan, God is just and would never condemn anyone if they really never heard of Jesus! But when your to good for God and want nothing to do with Him, He'll give you what you want!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Fructose-
Of course I was not speaking of the peasants in the farms and villages of Europe. It was the officials of the church who condemned and organized the torture and death of dissidents. The average illiterate peasant didn't even have a clue what the issues were. All they knew of the Bible was what the priests told them.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Huh? I'm outta here. Good night, folks!
Lastly one more-
Be aware however, that in order for it to be more than just another interesting idea, you will have to become an institution and in due time will get bogged down with all the foibles of religious institutions.
More sloppiness. "with all the foibles of religious institutions" Hardly! It won't be bogged down with the biggest foible of all: ancient theological hueypoo... supernaturalist doctrine... straight from the bronze age... and as I said on another thread, that's the only reason (a) ol' time religions are an obstacle on the path of science education, (b) ol' time religions have our attention: for making truth-claims about how the world works and how life works.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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here is a quote from one of the essays in the link above...
http://www.xmission.com/~fidelis/volume4/chapter5/beach.php
Decadence of Darwinism
by Rev. Henry H. Beach,
Grand Junction, Colorado
(Copyright, 1912, by Henry H. Beach.)
This paper is not a discussion of variations lying within the boundaries of heredity; nor do we remember that the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures reveal anything on that subject; nor do we think that it can be rationally discussed until species and genus are defined.
[snip]
We venture to differentiate life and if we go too far are sure to be corrected:
1. Vegetable life is the sum of the forces which pervade the organism, causes it to grow and preserves it from decay.
2. Brute life is the sum of the forces which pervade the organism, causes it to grow, preserves it from decay, is conscious and thinks.
3. Human life is the sum of the forces which pervade the organism, causes it to grow, preserves it from decay, is conscious, thinks and is religious.
It is logical to assume, until disproved, that these three kinds of life touch each other, but never merge. They associate as intimately as air and light, but are as far from passing from plants to brutes and from brutes to men as from not-being to being. "By faith we understand the ages to be set in order by the saying of God, in regard to the things seen not having come out of the things manifest" (Heb. 11:3).
He who would overthrow Biblical Christianity expects to take the initiative. He recognizes that there is always a Presumption in favor of an existing institution; and has always been swift to open the battle.
[snip]
The teaching of Darwinism, as an approved science, to the children and youth of the schools of the world is the most deplorable feature of the whole wretched propaganda. it would be difficult to fix the responsibility of it. Darwin himself hesitated. Virchow tried, nobly, to protect the primary schools of Germany. The burden of his lecture at Munich is throughout a caution against evading the distinction between the problematical and the proven; they are not on the same evidential level. "He would teach", he said, "evolution, if it were only proven; it is, as yet, in the hypothetical stage; the audience ought to be warned that the speculative is only the possible, not actual truth; that it belongs to the region of belief, and not to that of demonstration. As long as a problem continues in the speculative stage, it would be mischievous to teach it in our schools. We ought not to represent our conjecture as a certainty, nor our hypothesis as a doctrine." Haeckel, always rash, advocated it. As they struggled, somebody lighted the fire. It was like the burning of the temple at Jerusalem. Titus had issued an order to spare it, but a Roman soldier threw a blazing torch into a small window and the whole structure was in flames. It was like the revenge of the Pied Piper of Hamlin Town. It was "Rachel weeping for her children, and she would not be comforted, because they were not".
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Fructose-
I'm willing to bet that naturalism too would develop heresies and sex and money scandals, the same as institutional churches.
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jstan
climber
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Base104 interesting piece on neutrinos misses some of the current work on the problem.
By tomorrow Ed should be back from the O/W's and he will bring us up to date on flavor oscillation.
A short excerpt from science daily:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/03/050309145713.htm
2005
"Neutrinos come in three "flavors:" electron, muon and tau. Each is related to a charged particle, which gives the corresponding neutrino its name. Neutrinos are extremely difficult to detect because they rarely interact with anything. Though they can easily pass through a planet, solid walls and even a human hand, they rarely leave a trace of their existence.
"The probability of a neutrino interacting with anything is very small," said LLNL's Peter Barnes, who along with Livermore's Doug Wright and Ed Hartouni, is working on the MINOS experiment. "If you want to detect any neutrinos, you need something big."
Barnes, Wright and Hartouni are hoping that something big is a 6,000-ton detector lying deep in the Soudan, Minn. mine. The neutrinos will be generated along the underground beam line at Fermi Lab, will pass through the near detector at Fermi, and will travel through the Earth to the detector in Minnesota. Neutrinos are more easily detected when they are generated at a high energy (such as those at Fermi Lab).
The MINOS scientists chose the distance to the far detector to maximize the oscillation probability, which gives them the best opportunity to directly study the neutrino "flavor change."
Fusion in the sun results in electron neutrinos and scientists have predicted that if they can measure the electron neutrinos coming from the sun, they can measure the core of the sun. However, early experiments showed that less than half the expected neutrinos were observed on Earth. The idea that the missing electron neutrinos may have transformed into another type or "flavor" came alive."
End of excerpt
I recall seeing reports that flavor oscillation had been seen and that this now transforms the problem into one of theoretically explaining the mass of the neutrino. That would mean a change to the "Standard Model".
But Ed is the one we need to hear from.
Base104's other report is rather more complete. It does, however, omit recent reports that Pat Robertson has been in contact with intergalactic aliens and has told them the earth will be ready for them by 2013.
Edit:
I am going to display my stupidity for all to see now. I simply put two things together.
1. A recent report from the SK collaboration suggests only two flavors are involved in the mixing.
2. If LLNL considers the distance from San Francisco to Minnesota about right to observe the mixing, the rate of transition must be pretty high.
If it is that high by the time the sun's neutrinos reach us the two flavors must be entirely randomized.
QED. We lose half the neutrino flux if we can see only one flavor.
And Base, I have noticed physicists tend to have either little hair or disordered hair. The occupation is pretty hard on the hair. It also leads one to have a permanent puzzled expression.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Regarding Noah's Ark and the creationists.
First I laughed and then I cried. I'm beyond pulling my hair out!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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So, what about all the food for the critters on the ark? If their living quarters took up only half the volume, you still need to fit a lot of other stuff in the other half. And if they had a pair of creationist/fundamentalists on board, they'd need to be kept in a cell with thick soundproofing. 40 days and nights of their ranting would be enough to make even Noah pull the plug.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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How did Noah get two of each of the 8500 bird species?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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The Sun's neutrino image as observed by the Super-Kamiokande detector:
The work on neutrino oscillations by Super-K collaborator Masatoshi Koshiba won him the 2002 Nobel Prize in Physics along with Ray Davis (both for neutrinos) and Ricardo Giacconi for his work in astrophysics.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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It was nice of Noah to save all the viral and bacterial pathogens while he was at it.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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"Any way you look at it, Christianity is in trouble unless it makes major changes. It will either change or fall from its own internal contradictions. The hostile accusations of atheists will have little or no impact on what happens."
Good posts,all, Jan! Popular culture is lacking knowledge (of the context) of Protestant emphasis on scriptural authority and the rise of Christian fundementalism in the 20th century.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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I'm with Norwegian on this one, "I maintain my wretch status."
Romans 5:8-11, but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Proverbs 2:6-15, For the Lord gives wisdom;
from his mouth come knowledge and understanding;
7 he stores up sound wisdom for the upright;
he is a shield to those who walk in integrity,
8 guarding the paths of justice
and watching over the way of his saints.
9 Then you will understand righteousness and justice
and equity, every good path;
10 for wisdom will come into your heart,
and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul;
11 discretion will watch over you,
understanding will guard you,
12 delivering you from the way of evil,
from men of perverted speech,
13 who forsake the paths of uprightness
to walk in the ways of darkness,
14 who rejoice in doing evil
and delight in the perverseness of evil,
15 men whose paths are crooked,
and who are devious in their ways.
The Steadfast Love of the Lord
Psalm 33, Shout for joy in the Lord, O you righteous!
Praise befits the upright.
2 Give thanks to the Lord with the lyre;
make melody to him with the harp of ten strings!
3 Sing to him a new song;
play skillfully on the strings, with loud shouts.
4 For the word of the Lord is upright,
and all his work is done in faithfulness.
5 He loves righteousness and justice;
the earth is full of the steadfast love of the Lord.
6 By the word of the Lord the heavens were made,
and by the breath of his mouth all their host.
7 He gathers the waters of the sea as a heap;
he puts the deeps in storehouses.
8 Let all the earth fear the Lord;
let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him!
9 For he spoke, and it came to be;
he commanded, and it stood firm.
10 The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nothing;
he frustrates the plans of the peoples.
11 The counsel of the Lord stands forever,
the plans of his heart to all generations.
12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord,
the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!
13 The Lord looks down from heaven;
he sees all the children of man;
14 from where he sits enthroned he looks out
on all the inhabitants of the earth,
15 he who fashions the hearts of them all
and observes all their deeds.
16 The king is not saved by his great army;
a warrior is not delivered by his great strength.
17 The war horse is a false hope for salvation,
and by its great might it cannot rescue.
18 Behold, the eye of the Lord is on those who fear him,
on those who hope in his steadfast love,
19 that he may deliver their soul from death
and keep them alive in famine.
20 Our soul waits for the Lord;
he is our help and our shield.
21 For our heart is glad in him,
because we trust in his holy name.
22 Let your steadfast love, O Lord, be upon us,
even as we hope in you.
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jstan
climber
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A hypothesis on fundamentalism in the US.
Americans like things to be easy. Playing football and making good beer are both pretty hard. We love to sit on our keisters, while watching football and drinking beer. Have not heard of anyone in a mixed mode; watching football while brewing beer. Or even playing football with a glass of beer in hand.
It is easy being a fundamentalist. You don't have to decide what part of the bible to read. Indeed you don't have to read it at all. You just copy parts of it off the net and email it to your friends. They will think you have read all that stuff.
And get back to the telli.
We can reintroduce rationality in the US with a simple change in the law regarding intellectual property rights. (I realize what I am about to say is an oxymoron. But I am an american after all.)
If we extend the restrictions on unauthorized use of intellectual property from 100 years to 2000 years we can stop the bible traffic in its tracks. Think about it.
Doing this will even correct a terrible sin.
Who does Bill Gates think he is?
Having more money than god!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Norton wrote-
Gobbee, let's you and I agree to stop posting sections from the bible?
We are not converting anyone to our point of view, so let's just stop?
Don't stop, Norton!
I for one take back what I said several pages back and have had a change of mind about this. When I tried to get the word out about what the Bible really says 20 years ago, by quoting it verbatim, e.g., Numbers 15 ("the man must die...stone him... as the Lord commanded Moses") there wasn't any medium for traction. But times have changed. In a quantum leap. This internet phenom is powerful, and when you use it to post the Old Testament barbarism, how Abrahamic theology encourages violence, how God Jehovah sanctions it, etc. I do think it reaches eyes that have never seen it before, that otherwise wouldn't see it. And this produces change. So keep up the good work. At least whenever you want.
Brick by brick. (Hadrian)
Be the change you seek in the world. (Ghandi)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2010 - 01:13pm PT
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Fructose, If Gobby continues posting copy and pastes from his personal "select"
sections of the bible, then I will try to occasionally counter.
It really is tiring because Goby and the others who truly and honestly
believe that the bible is the direct word of the guy in the sky, and was
NOT written by humans, will NOT answer me about the horrible and barbaric
commands that the guy gives to humans,
THEY, Goby and friends, NEVER "deal" with this issue.
Also, I have my hands full beating down much the same blind thinking
without supporting factual evidence over on the Republicans Are Wrong thread.
There is only so much I can do as an aging hominid nowadays..............
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Norton, we all fall short of the Glory of God, and could not stand before Him in our own righteous, He is a Holy and just God, and Jesus said if we even think and dwell on bad things we have sinned! We deserve His wrath but He did not stop at that, but sent His Son Jesus to take our place instead, to those who believe, there is now no condemnation in Christ Jesus!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2010 - 02:06pm PT
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See what I mean?
Gobbee may be a real nice guy in person, but he has NOT agreed to NOT
post select sections of the bible that support his viewpoint.
And, he has NOT dealt with WHY the bible is full of god commanding
Gobbee and this friends to butcher, rape, and kill other humans.
One or the other: is the bible, all of it, THE word of god, or is it NOT?
ANSWER THE QUESTION, my friend Gobbee.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Norton- I'm sort of new to this thread, so at this point I don't really know Gobee's history here. But what if you just stopped addressing him directly, more or less assigned him troll status. It occurs to me, just in the last three days, I've already adapted to this strategy regarding him. For instance, in last night's dialog, I just passed over him. Seems to work. For me.
We could call it... Troll Passover Strategy.
EDIT jstan, I know what you mean, it is awfully disruptive.
EDIT I think I'll stop calling this troll out by name, too. It just serves as positive reinforcement that this Baptist theomaniacal troll likes.
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jstan
climber
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Actually I addressed Gobee directly when I asked him not to let the wonderful lyrics he was posting beside his texts, break the frame and make it hard for the posts of others to be read.
It happens less often now.
This tells me the future is full of hope.
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MH2
climber
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A while ago I went looking for a previous post to this thread. After a while searching I grew to really appreciate Gobee's posts as long stretches I could skip past as though I were making progress.
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MH2
climber
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Vegetarians? Now that is some Christian lore I have found instructive. In 2002 Robert and I happened to be climbing at Red Rocks and went to a movie in one of the large Vegas casinos. Right there on the big screen we watched a morality tale on the difference between compassion and mercy. The hero was a piece of asparagus.
Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Feed the man to a fish and you have a teachable moment, possibly a transformative experience.
Except for Robert and me the theatre was empty.
http://www.tangle.com/view_video?viewkey=2119be648db86dff37e6
from Wikipedia
The book of Jonah depicts Nineveh as a wicked city worthy of destruction. God sent Jonah to preach, and the Ninevites repented. As a result, God spared the city; when Jonah protests against this, God states He is showing pity for the population who are ignorant of the difference between right and wrong ("who cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand") and the animals in the city.
Nineveh's greatness was short-lived. Around 633 BC the Assyrian Empire began to show signs of weakness, and Nineveh was attacked by the Medes, who about 625 BC, joined by the Babylonians and Susianians, again attacked it. Nineveh fell in 612 BC, and was razed to the ground. The people in the city who could not escape to the last Assyrian strongholds in the west, were either massacred or deported. Many unburied skeletons were found by the archaeologists at the site.
The book of the prophet Nahum is almost exclusively taken up with prophetic denunciations against this city. Its ruin and utter desolation are foretold (Nahum 1:14. 3:19, etc.). Its end was strange, sudden, tragic. (Nahum 2:6-11) According to the Bible, it was God's doing, his judgment on Assyria's pride. In fulfillment of prophecy, God made "an utter end of the place". It became a "desolation".
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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One Troll over the line...
"WORLD CHAMPION CREATIONISTS 2010"
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Tall Silos of Iowa
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Just visited the "republicans so wrong" thread. Man, you guys play rough over there.
P.S. Food for thought: Why is the "set of solutions" in belief limited to religions and theologies? and in Western culture to the Abrahamic models? when it doesn't have to be?
Where are America's innovators-- the Wright Brothers, the Steven Jobs-- when it comes to belief discipline makeover in terms of life strategies, spiritual development, modern problem solving philosophy? The times are ripe for this! Helloooo...
Often the best way to conquer a bad habit is not to break the bad habit but to replace the bad habit.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Gobee was clearly sent so as to completely discredit Christianism. He's doing a fine job of it. Almost as effective as FatTrad is in his sphere, although we know that Jeff is in reality a DNC operative, whereas it seems unlikely that Gobee is a satanic agent. Although as I'm sure he'll admit, god works in mysterious ways. Women are like that.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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MH2!
The story of Jonah is one of my favorite books/stories in the bible. The Assyrians lived almost another 100 years after Jonah, then they were wiped out as prophesied. Jonah had reason to despise the Assyrians, they would have made Saddam Hussein and his two sons look like choir boys. The wreaked havoc on the Israelites. Would torture and maim and loot, rape and castrate, and worse. Hideous things on a regular basis. They were wicked. And when Jonah showed up and walked the length of their city, they knew a prophet was in their midst. Incredible story. I especially like the end when Jonah is angry at God for sparing the city.
Maybe Gobee can paste the end of Jonah were the plant dies that is giving Jonah shade, and Jonah gets depressed and angry that the plant dies. And God rebukes him for not having mercy on the people and animals.
Archeoligist have proof of the city of Ninevah and its destruction. Just as it's writen in the Old Testament.
I don't have many computer skills and type slow. But it is a wonderful insight to Gods compassion. You should read it.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Wes- "earthquakes"
The bible doesn't say there will be an increase, Jesus said there "will be earthquakes in various places." Also says "there will be wars and rumors of wars." and " And that it will be "merely the beginning of birth pangs" "the beginning of sorrows".
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2010 - 06:36pm PT
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Ok Tripl7, Gobee refuses to answer the question.
So now, I will ask YOU to.
Some questions, yes or no answers, no agenda campaigning.
1) Is the Bible the direct word of your god?
2) Did god himself actually write the Bible?
3) IF god did NOT himself sit down and write the bible, then did
VARIOUS HUMANS, at different times, actually sit down and write the bible?
4) CAN human beings "make up" and write down anything they want to,
based entirely on their OWN life experiences and prevailing culture
WHILE they were sitting down and writing the various bible PASSAGES?
5) The Bible is BOTH FULL of nice, glorious, loving passages that GOBBEE
likes to copy and paste, AND the bible is ALSO FULL of horrible,
brutal commandments from god to KILL, RAPE, and TORTURE fellow humans.
So Tripl7, seeing as how the bible has BOTH "good" and "bad" stuff
in it, is the bible the direct word of god, all the good AND bad stuff?
Depending on your answers, I may have more questions, if you don't mind!
thank you for your answers
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Wes!
Having a hard time dealing with the fact that a city/people the Assyrians were called a myth from the bible for hundreds of years(totaly forgotten by history) untel the were discovered by archeologist in the 19th century...eh? As have other biblical sites and cities, Hahahahahhhaaa!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Norton, both Gobee and I have answered these questions before.
I will simply abbreviate my answer to yes, the Person who is capable of creating a universe as complex and as ordered and magnificent as we know it, is capable of getting His love letter to mankind through human minds and hands in the form of the written Word.
I read a King James Bible(400+yrs. old) about a month ago and it was identical to the one I have that was published in the last decade.
They have had scholars that can read Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew and English interpret Dead Sea Scrolls and early versions of scripture and have come to the same conclusion.
People that have never even opened the bible, my nephew for instance, rattle off these lies like "there are 1,000 of bibles. and there all different. THATS THE MYTH!!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2010 - 07:07pm PT
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Sorry if I missed your, and Gobee's previous answers to my question!
Tripl7, this time you gave a somewhat vague "yes' answer.
I cannot tell if you are answering YES to ALL of my questions..
SO, if you would kindly humor me,
Would you please answer YES or NO, to these question.
And please, save your personal rapture of your faith to a later post?
again:
Some questions, yes or no answers, no agenda campaigning.
1) Is the Bible the direct word of your god?
2) Did god himself actually write the Bible?
3) IF god did NOT himself sit down and write the bible, then did
VARIOUS HUMANS, at different times, actually sit down and write the bible?
4) CAN human beings "make up" and write down anything they want to,
based entirely on their OWN life experiences and prevailing culture
WHILE they were sitting down and writing the various bible PASSAGES?
5) The Bible is BOTH FULL of nice, glorious, loving passages that GOBBEE
likes to copy and paste, AND the bible is ALSO FULL of horrible,
brutal commandments from god to KILL, RAPE, and TORTURE fellow humans.
So Tripl7, seeing as how the bible has BOTH "good" and "bad" stuff
in it, is the bible the direct word of god, all the good AND bad stuff?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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YES!
Read it from beginning to end.
In context to the various issues and states of the Hebrews?Israelites at the time.
Is there any accounts of anyone stoning or killing there children? NO!
The Israelites couldn't even get from point A to point B(something like 70-80 miles without screwing everything up(took them 40 years). They couldn't keep any of the laws, that was the whole point. They continually added other religions on top of it. Hey, we can't get it right with God, so lets try some of this, get naked and drunk, sacrifice something to a golden cow or bird etc.
When a prophet stated or declared all the death and destruction 90% of the things you quoted were never happened because it scared the hell out of the people and like Nineveh the repented and turned back to God.
And then so many years down the line another Prophet would come along and declare all the same damnation and so on.
But it did happen to Israel a number of times, the were either destroyed and taken into captivity etc. 1200 years.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Tripster, about those Assyrians, you just can't seem to get past this post-genocidal propaganda dished out by your god's people after they slaughtered (or witnessed the slaughter) of their enemies, can you?
That's a pretty broad brush to paint an entire civilization with... but hey, since they're not around to defend themselves anymore, might as well lay it on thick, huh?
Unfortunately for the "Jonah-predicted-it" camp, records show that Assyrian religion wasn't really all that different from Judaism when it came to ethics and morality. Which really shouldn't be a surprise, unless you have a need to demonize them in order to justify their destruction.
May my sins be forgiven, my transgressions be wiped out.
May the ban be loosened, the chain broken,
May the seven winds carry off my sighs.
Let me tear away my iniquity, let the birds carry it to heaven,
Let the fish take off my misfortune, the stream carry it off.
May the beasts of the field take it away from me,
The flowing waters of the stream wash me clean.
Let me be pure like the sheen of gold.
As a ring of precious stone, may I be precious before thee.
Remove my iniquity, save my soul.
-Assyrian penitential hymn
Sounds kinda familiar, doesn't it? Only difference is there was a pantheon of deities to kiss up to instead of a single, jealous little demiurge.
Here's another:
The sin I have committed change to mercy,
The wrong I have done, may the wind carry off.
Tear asunder my many transgressions as a garment.
My god, my sins are seven times seven, forgive me my sins.
My goddess, my sins are seven times seven, forgive me my sins,
Known or unknown god, my sins are seven times seven, forgive me my sins.
Known or unknown goddess, my sins are seven times seven, forgive me my sins.
Forgive me my sins and I will humble myself before thee.
May thy heart be glad as the heart of the mother that has given birth, as that of a father who has begotten a child.
Hardly the sentiments of a wicked, wicked people who all deserved to die, I'd say. Just chock-full of typical guilt, fear, and poetic anguish, right up there with the very best of Hebrew self-loathing. Change a few details and you could slip this into your book of Psalms without even noticing.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Wes!
Look what SCIENCE has been saying wes, because I followed the seismologist throughout the f*#kin 80's starting with Mammoth in 1980!!!
They ran us out of the f*#kin town, your TRUSTED SEISMOLOGIS B#%$&DS!!!
They had it written in stone back then an up through the 90's that earthquakes were on the increase from the 50's you dumb sh#t.
They said Mammoth was going to blow any damn second AZZH#LE!!
F#knard!
Hey no the little pansy ass bastards are saying OH we were wrong we forgot there were only 7,000 seizmographs in the early 1900's know there are 80,000. So of course we are regersting more quakes.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2010 - 07:44pm PT
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Tripl7, if the YES in your post was the answer to ALL my questions,
then you have a real problem with basic logic and reasoning.
You have answered YES to questions that contradict each other.
That means that you are either simply "naive" (don't know much yet)
OR it means your brain is undeveloped, incapable of rational reasoning.
I would NOT like to believe either of the above about you.
So, which it is, TripL7? Are you naive, or stupid, or are you HIDING
your TRUE intelligence from us for some unknown reason?
IF SO, WHEN are you planning on letting it loose?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Wes!
You know how many people lost there homes in Mammoth in 1980-84!
Half the f*#kin town AZZ#&LE!!!
All because of your f#&in boyfriend Seismologist/Scientist!!!!777SEVEN!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Whoa. Either Trippy really blew a gasket or someone hijacked his account.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Wes!!!
Where were you in 1980 wes??
You sure in hell were not in Mammoth! the F#%NARD SCIENTIST told everyone the ground had risen thirty feet and told evryone to get out!!!
Log homes that wherte going for $300,000.00 couldn't be sold to anyone for $30,000.00!!
Major F*#KUP by MAJOR F#KNARDS that called themserlves SCIENTIST!!!
The whole town went bankrupt!!
Lots that were going for $40,000.00 wouldn't sell for $2,000.00.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Your a joke WES get out of my life!!!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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cintune!
I didn't blow a gasket, I am comunicating in the only language that weschrist knows!
Read everyone of his posts!
It's called making a point!
I agree, not very Christlike.
But I never claimed to be Christ.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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OK
I'm over it...more or less.
Let me ask this one question regarding seismologist/scientist and the history of Mammoth regarding the earthquake activity and the volcanoes and subsequent events?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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cintune!
See what Trippy and Gobee et al. put up with on aregular basis from weschrist Wanda Ricky roadman et al.??
Or is there a double standard that goes unnoticed by the masses?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2010 - 08:09pm PT
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Are you SURE the bible was NOT written by HUMANS?
Would GOD REALLY SAY THIS STUPID ASS STUFF?
GOD Commands His Followers to KILL Damn Near Everything
Kill Sons of Sinners
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
God Will Kill Children
The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
Kill Men, Women, and Children
"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
God Kills all the First Born of Egypt
And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)
Kill Old Men and Young Women
"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)
(Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)
God Will Kill the Children of Sinners
If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)
More Rape and Baby Killing
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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How can God be both loving and destroy His creation, stay true to his Holy self and not lie?
In the day's of Noah, everyone laughed at him, and thought he was nuts! God said after that He would not flood the (whole) earth again!
Many times in the Bible, God was going to punish and destroy the people of Israel but Moses and other prophets prayed and told them to repent and return to God and when they did, He relented!
It would be evil if went and did those things that are on Norton's lists that he wrote that God said to do!
I'm NOT God, and the way I look at it I'm not getting treated the way I deserve I'm getting a pardon, through Jesus!
I'm sure this doesn't answers your question but it's my answers!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2010 - 08:13pm PT
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Only an IDIOT would say that the Bible is the direct word of "god"
Only an IDIOT would say that everything in the bible is the word of god.
IF I believed in the guy in sky FAIRY TALE, I sure would NOT be DUMB enough
to believe that God commands Tripl7 and Gobee to KILL and RAPE other humans,
You have to be naive, or stupid, or have an immature, undeveloped brain
to believe THAT.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Tough crowd, true. But you're probably still better off with the more Christ-like passive-aggressive approach, overall. Just my opinion, of course.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2010 - 08:16pm PT
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Gobee, GROW UP will you?
Only a child would believe that the bible is the direct word of god.
God commands YOU, Gobee, to KILL AND RAPE?
It says so right in the SAME BIBLE YOU read every day.
Did you MISS those sections?
Did your mama cut them out so you would not see them?
Santa, Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny..............................
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gteck
climber
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who cares how old the fossils are or how you figure out how old it is. Flex your minute brain at your next trekki convention. the simple fact remains that the human body is a random compilation of random molecules in a random environment that performs miraculous feat's every nano second of its existence which is totally by chance. Or did something/someone design us? From a scientific standpoint i thought all you guys would be excited about intelligent design seeing how you are all knowing. What about Love or the many nonphysical connections we have with each other or with nature? How do these things help us find food or stay warm or protect us from predators? I am going to love you away nnnnnnnnnhhhhhhhh, there now you wont eat me. We are all spiritual beings with souls and minds that cannot be explained. We are mortal. God is not, therefore we cannot understand "him". we need a mediator. Who or what is yours?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2010 - 08:19pm PT
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Cintune, it they got it, they ought to say it, no screwing around.
If you want to run with the big dogs, then you have to be able to piss in the tall grass.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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cintune!
THE POINT BEING!!
Wes et al (besides the constant cursing and degrading remarks, fuknard being his favorite), seems to overlook some of the MAJOR inadequacies of the scientific method. Namely, case in point Mammoth 1980-86!
Thy said that it was imminent that the volcano was going to blow and the whole town had to be evacuated and abandoned. Over half the full time residents 5,000 abandoned the town. And God only knows how many people lost there second homes and condos.
The scientist admitted 5-7 years after all the damage was done that the SCREWED UP.
Along with that through the 70- 80's they were saying that earthquakes over all were on the increase.
And during the last decade or so changed there tune admitting that the had miss calculated activity secondary to the fact that there are 10 times the amount of seismograph machines or more than there were a century ago.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2010 - 08:28pm PT
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tripl, what is your point?
so a seismologist screwed up, are you saying that ALL science should
be discredited because of this one bad prediction?
Or does this have something to do with you denying human evolution?
as in "science' is WRONG once, so the entire science of Darwin is wrong?
SURELY, you believe that humans evolved through Darwinian natural selection,
and NOT that somehow they suddenly appeared on the scene two thousand
years ago when the bible was written.
I gotta believe only Gobee swallowed that fairy tale.
RIGHT? Or WHAT exactly DO you believe?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Wes!
I was going by what the scientist said during the 70's, 80's, 90's...I am guilty of putting faith in what I read back then.
I recently checked the Inter'net sites and the say what I said up-thread about not taking into acount the increase in seismographs.
Alot of people went bankrupt and bailed etc. from Mammoth. Plus about everyother night for 3-4 years the town shook.
Besides, it ain't over yet...ain't to late to increase your earthquake insurance. Or stock up on water, can goods etc.
EDIT: Especialy in Cali!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Norton!
That whole $#@#&^@^^^^ thing was about the reliability/whatever regarding earthquakes...the discussion that wes and I have been having over the last couple weeks or so. I did make a mistake about the increase, and a explained it more or less. Wes being very dogmatic about the irrefutability(Sp) of seismologist/earthquake behavior got to me and...I just made a point.
God claims He made the earth/universe in six day's! This is at least the third time I have said that I believe He could have made it in six seconds if He had chosen to. God only knows how long He planned/thought about it.
God created the universe and wrapped Himself around it. Or perhaps He created it within Himself. I don't know.
He is Spirit. Untel you meet and get to know Spirit, it is impossible to cophrehend.
There is another dimension.
God created the earth outside of time. Time is a consequence of the fall, or perhaps it started at the moment of creation. It is/was not a restriction to God. You are looking at it from a time and space perspective.
But the simple answer is yes He created it in six day's.
But keep in mind that "A day is like a thousand years, and a year is like a thousand days" to God.
From the beginning of time until now is like a drop of water to the pacific ocean to God. Less.
It can be either one to Him. A drop of water(time), or the Pacific Ocean(time). They are identical to Him. The same. They don't restrict Him like they do us.
If that makes sense!?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Actually, no, it doesn't.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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777 wrote
People that have never even opened the bible, my nephew for instance, rattle off these lies like "there are 1,000 of bibles. and there all different. THATS THE MYTH!!
Sorry buddy, according to Bible professor Bart Ehrman, there are over 5000 manuscripts known of the bible and absolutely NONE of them is identical to another one of them. They all contain minor differences.
God is real and present now. We distort God because of our human blindness...it's a dense world we live in.
Don't make a book into God. It's literary idolatry. As Norton has amply demonstrated, it reflects another time that we have evolved out of. (just as Christians recognize their faith as an evolution of Judaism)
Peace
Karl
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2010 - 09:18pm PT
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Trip, nothing you just said about god makes sense to me.
Why did it take him 6000 YEARS to make this earth, if he made it in six
days and you say a day is a thousand years?
What took god so long? Was he multi tasking elsewhere and did not have the time?
Trip, what DOES make sense to me is that I now understand that YOU really
DO honestly believe and totally accept as true the story of creation in Genesis.
SO does Gobee.
WOW!
I guess I have trouble believing that people like you and Gobee actually exist,
that you are real, educated, people living here in the United States in 2009!
But, I get it now, I just need more time to deal with it.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Wes, did you read what I said up thread? There is nowhere in the bible where He says there is going to be an INCREASE in earthquakes. Read it again His quote, "And there will be earth quakes in various places."
Yes I am guilty of presuming that there would be an increase in earthquakes. And they will be of some concern evidently. But if you read the rest of it and I am not going to type it all again. There will also be "wars and rumors of wars" etc....go back and read it and the "beginning of sorrows" I guess Christians are guilty of interpreting that as being an increase in earthquakes, many other Christians also pointed out that it is not so.
Whatever, all we are saying is that we are experiencing the "beginning of sorrows".
One thing that is predicted is the war between Iran(Persia)with Russia, and Libya and Lebanon and Syria against Israel. With no one coming to Israel's aid. NOBODY BUT GOD! What happens to USA at that time in regards to our support...?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"Did you MISS those sections?"
No mercy here, just the letter of the law!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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So that is the next big event on the biblical clock...the war between Iran et al. and Israel! Prophesied thousands of years ago. To happen after Israel regains its Promised land after 1800+ years of and being spread across the earth. It is not the Armageddon War, it comes &years before it(Armageddon).
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2010 - 09:43pm PT
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Wes_ "twenty years of data and poor public policy."
What are you talking about?
Were you there? Did you read the scientific statements and agreement in the scientific comunity in regards to the the whole plateau, the Owens Valley. These were the top seismologist in the world, and MIT et al. over a period of 5-7 years. FAILED.
Public policy?
I don't think you have a clue what I am referring to.
And then throwing a tantrum? Oh lets see, I guess there is a double standard. You and all your pals can curse and etc etc and go to the PROCTOLOGIST and find out wes and Wanda and there god isn't in their azzhole so their god what ever you call him, maybe darwin, doesn't exist because he the proctoligist didn't find him their. Oh yea it was mine and "GOOBERS" God Jesus that wasn't there. And on and on and on.
And suddenly wes is... Oh I just used FUKNARD nothing else.
I'll say it again.
GET OUT OF MY LIFE!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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That Hal Lindsey schtick is pretty dated, too. Used to be all about the Cold War, now it's revised in a desperate effort to continue to pretend to be relevant.
Ain't happenin'.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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BABBA!
Minor issues!
I am saying that the Bible, any bible you pick up(I have at least ten different translations)are going to relate the story of Gods love for mankind from Genesis to Revelation as He meant it for us to have.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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cintune!
It ain't over dude!
Look at the world. It is a pathetic mess.
Look at America.
God help us.
Dude are you blind?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Wes!
What's the deal?
Suddenly theres no more "I don't give a fuk about yur fairy tail book!" etc, etc.
I kinda don't know what to say...
LATER!
~777~
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2010 - 10:21pm PT
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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What the Bible says about earthquakes...
Signs of the Close of the Age
Matthew 24:3-8, As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?” 4 And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. 5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are but the beginning off the birth pains.
Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution
Luke 21:10-11, Then he said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven.
It's like the movie Final Destination, just trying to hip my climbing brothers!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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“If you want to get together in any exclusive situation and have people love you, fine – but to hang all this desperate sociology on the idea of The Cloud-Guy who has The Big Book, who knows if you’ve been bad or good – and cares about any of it – to hang it all on that, folks, is the chimpanzee part of the brain working.” - Frank Zappa
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2010 - 10:37pm PT
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Wes go back and read my last five or more post I admitted I was wrong twice. For the third time i said Jesus said there would be a earthquakes in various places!
And since then I did some follon the science nerd sites where they admit they were wrong about the increase in earthquakes. ETC,
So milk it.
Find another picture with a guy with his head up his ass and(or his thumb)and say don't worry 777 they have your picture but they won't show your face.
Think I care what they show of the real me?
You and half the other people like that Rick or Ricky guy who said they couldn't find Jesus up his#@hole when he went to the doctor and had a ... And Wanda with his/her pathetic insults are pure HATE. And you can't control it. I realy pity you.
I thought for two seconds and came to the conclusion...maybe they will get a brief look at themselves if I make a complete azz of my self swearing. And TWO I could care less about the incident in Mammoth, nobody I new owned a damn thing, I sure didn't. I was making a point in regards to the fact that science is not infallible...period.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2010 - 10:51pm PT
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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dknow- "Sam Kinisins take on Christianity. 'Jesus didn't have a wife."
LUDE CRUDE ANTI-CHRIST-IAN!
Humor? Where is Sam now?
Sam Kinison taking his microphone and using it as a phallic symbol like he is taking a leak in the corner and pretending some blind guy comes up and asks him for help and he curses at him and starts shaking it back and forth and getting huge laughter and etc curses again....all in a comic routine that he says is what realy must have realy happen end/represented the real Jesus. All in front of an audience of 30,000 people in Madison Square Garden, filmed live for his DVD, The dude didn't live much longer...but what about the 30,000 people, hilarious in the audience??
And just today I come along this song of "TOOL" called "Eulogy" about Jesus Christ, total degradation, about His lies and "Come down off the f#kin cross". The sold ten million albums/Cd's to the idol worshiping youth of America where they have "there is no god" shoved down there throats from the time they are seven years old.
You better hope that Jesus is a ferry tale.
I was sitting on my chair typing up my first post wondering if I should mention earthquakes and clarify what I had said earlier. I would not lie in regards to this< I questioned God twice in regards to the meaning of earthquakes,, and at the fisish of the second time BAM and earthquake hit. Sharp and nhard, not much of a roll or a wave, meaning it was fairly close. Which was good. I could tell it was probably in the low five's. If it had been a long rolling or shaking and rolling it would have meant it was from afar and heavier.
I don't believe in coincidence. Make of it what you will.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2010 - 11:24pm PT
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Psalms
If you ask God, he'll force heathens to be your slaves and help you "dash
them in pieces." 2:8-9\
If you pray to God, he will kill your enemies for you. 9:3-6
The God of peace teaches us how to kill our neighbors in war. 18:34
If you make God angry, he'll burn you and your children to death. 21:9-10
God will shoot his adversaries in the back with his arrows. 21:12
A sweet prayer for the destruction of one's enemies: Let their way be dark and slippery: and let the angel of the LORD persecute them.... Let destruction come upon him at unawares." 35:6,8
God laughs at those that he will later torment. 37:13
If you forget God, God will tear you into pieces. 50:22
If you don't trust in God, he'll kill you and while you're dying the "righteous" will laugh at you. 52:5-7
Referring to his enemies, the psalmist says: "Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell." 55:15
The psalmist devoutly prays: "Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth ... let them be cut in pieces." 58:6-7
The psalmist asks God to kill all "the heathen" and not show them any mercy. 59:5
God will laugh at the heathen as he kills them. 59:8
"The righteous" will rejoice when he sees "the wicked" being dismembered by God. He'll even get a chance to wash his feet in their blood. Now that's entertainment! 58:10
"The God of mercy" will let the psalmist see his enemies tormented. 59:10
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Wes- "Scientist don't have authority to evacuate towns..."
Wes they scared the hell out of everyone with all there talk in regards to the eminent eruption of the huge volcano that Mammoth was sitting on top of. They highly recommended it in the least. There was a sign for a couple of years "Last one out of town turn out the lights." There had been a fairly sizable quake 6.?+ and aftershocks for at least three years from what I recall. They had TOP seismologist and scientist from around the world studying it like it was the next Mt St Helen's.
There results were made known public on a Thursday I believe called "Black Thursday" from then on. You couldn't sell or build a house for years.
I forget the name of the movie, about the volcano in the Pacific NW made in the 90's that erupts in a Mtn. Town. They even mention not wanting to set off a false alarm "like what happened in Mammoth".
EDIT: Referred to it as "the Round Valley Caldera."
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Norton & Ed!
I just want to reiterate...I do have a very high regard for science, I work in the field. All the medical and scientific miracles are wonderful. Where would we be without them. Not communicating on the inter-net...me on a Wifi connection, for even more astounding effect. And I wear contacts etc.
I just wanted to make a point with the Mammoth incident with weschrist. I wasn't disillusioned with science as a result. In some ways "Mammoth was getting to big for it's britches", turning into another Aspen at the time as some suggested afterwards.
Anyway, science is making a big mistake in laying all it's apples in one basket in regards to the proof there is no God via the scientific method/Darwinism.
Jesus said "You are not of this world."
You are looking in the wrong places!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Thanks Base!
It was a crazy time for sure, I had a couple of friends that made out like bandits, they bought $300,0000.00 log homes for $30,000.00. Everyone laughed at them for a year or two or more. The same places were going for over 2.5 million about 5 years ago.
OH Well, long day...my bad!
Sorry everyone!
Trip~
EDIT: Yes, good thing they have it wired well now, no repeat of Mt. St Helens...1 more homerun for science. Hahaha!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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The Earth is a random number generator and Plate Tectonics is a fairly recent science as sciences go and we've only had computers and instrumentation to allow us to begin to understand it all for a very short period of time. We are not capable of predicting earthquakes at this time and who knows, we never maybe able to with any useful accuracy. So what? It's not a problem with science. What people attempt to do with information provided is a policy / political matter. People do their best, including scientists, but no one has much 'luck' predicting random number generators, earthquakes or roulette wheels.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Tall Silos of Iowa
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Here's what you don't get:
It's just a half of step (a baby step, climbers like to say) between (a) taking literally the divinity of Jesus (which is what you do, also what my Grandmother did) and (b) taking literally passages of the Old Testament (which is what the religiously "insane" do, e.g., Scott Roeden, Andrea Yates, David Koresh, Osama bin Laden, al-Zawahiri, the 19 9/11 hijackers...).
It's not so simple.
Cragman- "my Lord being trampled"
Inasmuch as you're a Christian, your Lord is God Jehovah (of the ancient Hebrews). It's not God Amon-Re (of the ancient Egyptians). It's not God Zeus (of the ancient Greeks). It's not Quezalcoatl (of the ancient Mayans). It's not some handsoff deist God that many a physicist speaks of , mostly metaphorically.
For starters, you should identify your Lord. Call him out by name. God Jehovah (aka God Yahweh). So there's less confusion. Your God Jehovah / God Jesus was the Highest Power conceived of by an ancient local desert tribal people. Written up in story form. What Norton, for instance, above, quoted of Him was word for word from the Old Testament. That's truth. That's honesty. That's integrity. That's what your Lord God Jehovah stands for. And it's what the internet-driven info age, at long last, is bringing to the forefront.
Adapt. Verily, I urge, adapt. If you're determined to remain a theist, at least move from a literalist theology to a metaphorical theology. Get real.
Hadrian- Brick by brick.
Gandhi- Be the change you seek in the world.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2010 - 11:57am PT
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TripL7:
A couple of responses to your recent post to me and Ed.
First, you state that "science is making a big mistake in laying all it's apples in one basket in regards to the proof there is no God via the scientific method/Darwinism."
Regarding your above statement:
You are stating YOUR PERSONAL OPINION, carrying no more weight of truth
than just that, your opinion, yet you state it as if is was FACT. NOPE.
"science" has NEVER made the "statement" that there is no god.
And science has NEVER made the case that studying Darwinian evolution
means that there IS or IS NOT, a god.
Science is simply the discovery and logical conclusions from data.
Science in NO WAY concerns itself with, or BOTHERS, to make religious
conclusions about whether there is a god or not. PERIOD.
The evidence is, to most logical people, OVERWHELMING that modern humans
evolved from earlier humans, as they did from earlier "primates".
Now, YOU personally make not LIKE what science tells us about physical
evolution of our humans species because it contradicts what YOU WANT
to believe is the truth based upon YOUR OWN PERSONAL RELIGIOUS BACKGROUND.
BUT, no one, no one, is making the case that human evolution and not
the creation taught in the bible, is "proof" there is not god,
In fact, MANY people, do indeed believe humans "evolved" from primates
some 200,000 or years ago, and those same people also believe that
a god exists who "created" the conditions on earth necessary for human
life to evolve as it did.
SO TripL7, it is NOT science, but it is YOU, who are stating your personal
opinion that god created modern humans just a couple thousand years ago,
and that all scientific evidence and research about who was on this planet
prior to a couple thousand years ago is NOT human.
You are entitled to your opinion, in direct opposition to the logic
that says two plus two equals four.
I, and many others, have a lot of trouble accepting your view of
humans just being created by god a short while ago.
We think your position is not "credible", and certainly not "defensible",
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jstan
climber
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Cman:
"We are hard scarred and hateful." That's a lot of hate right there. would you not say?
It isn't if you accept by definition that YOU do not hate.
You are doing a lot of accepting - when it suits your purposes.
There are people who are not willing to accept what you say. Because they do not you hate them. If you believe everything in your bible you are, in fact, instructed to stone us to death for this. Simply because we do not "believe" as you believe. That is real hate.
That religion of yours has a very sad history in this regard.
We don't hate you. We are just becoming very tired of your impositions upon us.
This thread concerns your wish to make our children targets of your stories and flights of fancy, when they are too young and dependent to call a halt.
You need to stop this. Believe as you wish. But stop what you are doing.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2010 - 12:23pm PT
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I started this thread,
This thread is a continuation thread of my orignal "Creationists take
Another Called Strike" over a year ago.
That first thread was about scientists discovering how salamanders "evolved"
the loss of their eyes over generations while living in total darkness.
The science of species evolution, any species, is vital to our understanding
of how life began, and progressed through billions of years on our planet.
THIS thread is about "Ardi", the name given to a pre modern human being
that is dated at over four millions old, and is the earliest hominid
yet found that confirms its ancestry to us modern humans.
This thread was never intended to "evolve" into the age old argument
of whether religion or scientific discovery is "right" as regards "where"
modern humans "came from" (god creating them two thousand years ago or
scientifically derived data concluding many millions of years "evolution"
So now, Ardi as a MAJOR find is forgotten, and here we are now arguing
whether "biblical faith" or "scientific discovery" should be believed.
No one "wins" that argument, BUT the indisputable fact remains that
we are continually adding to our discovery and "proof" that modern
humans did evolve from beings linked to "Ardi".
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Tall Silos of Iowa
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But don't you dare nuke it, Norton.
Food for thought:
So how can America--bent on innovation in the spirit of the Wright Brothers and Steven Jobs-- get around to it?
--to urging the Muslim world to move from traditional Islam to a more modern renascent (renewed) Islam? from 2,000 year old traditional literalist theology to a more symbolic metaphorical theology-- when so many Americans are traditional literalists, too?
--to identifying the problem as militant theology as part of ancient theology when the latter, ancient theology, also runs thick in the veins of American culture, too?
Anyone besides me discouraged, frustrated, with (when I think about it) the awfully inefficient slow pace of cultural evolution? Like continental drift! Esp in the area of belief discipline practice.
Thank goodness for the info age. Maybe things will speed up measured in generational time (25yr increments). There is hope.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Hey Christians were burning witches a few hundred years ago. Islam will change in time as well, and faster because media is everywhere and it affects culture.
Peace
Karl
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Tall Silos of Iowa
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Karl- "Christians were burning witches a few hundred years ago. Islam will change in time as well, and faster because media is everywhere and it affects culture."
Yeah, where there is a sense of advancement in human cultural evolution over centuries, there is a sense of hope. Thank goodness for it.
I just hope there's enough change before these militant theists-- adamant that they're being obedient to God Jehovah/ Allah-- get the BIG ONE. You know? It just kinda feels like a race against time sometimes.
But here's a kicker. I was talking this over with a evolutionist friend a couple days ago. Even if the militant Muslim world (cf: nonmilitant Muslim world) were to get nuclear bombs and use them, and even if an exchange in the end of it all were to wipe out 1.5 billion people (that's 1500 million people) in a huge "culture wars" war, it would still leave 5 billion on the planet. Life is resilient.
1500 million people-- each and every one of them with a life, a life story, friends and loved ones. Boggles the mind...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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One thing I'm sure of is that in-your-face aggressive and vulgar insults never changed anybody's mind about anything. The question then arises as to what the purpose of this approach is, other than to make the one venting feel superior for a short time and the vented upon martyrs.
A lot of us on this thread have tried to have a reasonable exchange of views and indeed have succeeded and learned a lot. People's minds may not have been changed, but positions have been refined and honed.
Norton's latest reply to Tripl7 about what science is and is not, (#1077555) serves as a great example of this line of thinking and is the kind of reasoning that works in my college classrooms anyway, to slowly open people's minds.
Why can't people be satisfied with that? Why the need of some people to keep reverting to flame thrower tactics?
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jstan
climber
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We have to come to the point where america functions in hyperbole. When overstated positions have no effect or get no attention the next step is obvious. This phenomenon was quite apparent prior to and during the Civil War. I thought it was counterproductive both times.
It was an essential component allowing the slave owners trying to protect their investment in slaves from being taken away. The tactic permitted popular emotion to be stoked to the point of causing those not owning slaves to be wllling to go off and get killed for someone else's benefit.
Loss of rationality seems a common precursor to loss of civil order. If you will, it is preparatory.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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I suppose one could look at the current culture wars as the South's revenge for losing the Civil War. They have certainly managed to skew national politics toward the religious right.
Some futurists have indeed predicted that the U.S will eventually break up into smaller more governable units with Hawaii, Washington, Oregon, California and Nevada comprising a new country.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Tall Silos of Iowa
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Yeah, it's time we got around to it:
Distinguishing between (a) religion with its reliance on archaic supernaturalist doctrines and (b) spiritual belief discipline -- those spiritual belief discipline models and practices that base themselves on science (scientific wisdom), life guidance and life strategies -- and are all about spiritual development, in other words, spirit building, in a tough world. -A tough world that happens to have pressures-- natural pressures-- set against us.
I, for one, practice a spiritual belief discipline (a) that's science-based, (b) that's not scientology (!), (c) that doesn't have a scintilla of supernaturalist belief or supernaturalist doctrine in it.
Keep the faith / trust: This ages-old conflict is resolvable. It will resolve. Now that we've entered this internet-driven information age. New models for spiritual development and life guidance are right around the corner. And they won't be called religions.
Yeah, and in time, they will be institutionalized in culture. And they will have their faults like all institutions do due to the human factor. But they won't have any supernatualist hueypoo in them, they'll be free of all the bronze-age ignorance that's an obstacle in the paths to greater science education and better living.
P.S. Thanks Carl Sagan. For your early-on inspiration. In the tough years.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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My Opinion
Science doesn't seek to discredit or disprove religion, it is not the goal of science.
Nor is the goal of science to become the dominant means of expanding human knowledge.
However, the success of science in providing understanding that allows us to predict the action of a physical system, and/or the occurrence of natural phenomena on the basis of empirically verified theories constructed with mathematical rigor has replaced, by and large, a human "witness" affirmed by oaths to a higher power.
It is not a philosophical impetus which has driven this change but the fact that human witness is known to be flawed when compared to scientific methods of obtaining accurate, precise records of an event.
Further, the information gained using scientific methods leads to extending our scientific knowledge.
This will naturally bring science into conflict with the ideas which seek to interpret phenomena with extra-natural explanations. A scientist's view is that anything that is measurable in the physical domain is the subject of a physical description.
There are many responses to the success of science among other, competing interpretations of phenomena. One way is to point out the physical boundaries and limits that confront the sciences. This position has to contend with the fact that science tends to push these boundaries further and further as more knowledge is added in the pursuit of scientific understanding. "What came before the Big Bang?" is a natural question, scientists are interested in the answer, and will explore the scientific aspects of the question, because they are interested in the science that comes out of such questions.
Another response is to look at human consciousness and point out that we do not have a scientific theory of consciousness that describes its details and is predictive. It is human consciousness that provides the element which currently defines what it is to be "human" and the mystery of consciousness that opens up speculation of some "ineffable" quality that can be introduced by some super-natural agent to give humans humanness.
Because consciousness manifests itself as a physical phenomena, it is susceptible to scientific study. And it is the subject of scientific investigation. I do not know what the outcome of this study will be, but it will no doubt be highly controversial. Any scientific theory that addresses the human condition is controversial, evolution, which is the OP subject of this thread explains humans as an evolutionary outcome of life on the planet Earth. This evolutionary process which provides a scientific explanation of biology is rejected by a great many humans who cannot accept the scientific fact that humans are a part of life on the planet and the result of evolutionary processes.
A scientific understanding of consciousness will be even more controversial.
But in all these investigations, some religious people will object to the idea that the super-natural force is pushed farther and farther away as an agent in our universe. While this is not the aim of science, it is the consequence of expanding our scientific understanding.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Tall Silos of Iowa
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You know it's helpful sometimes to distinguish between (a) basic science (aka discovery science) and (b) prescriptive science (or sciences) like medicine, engineering. Prescriptive sciences, by definition, are goal-based. Having this understanding greatly diminishes needless argument. Sometimes. Over what "science" is and what it isn't. Just sayin.
Nice write-up. Check. Check. Check. Check. Etc. You qualified one sentence re: consciousess with "that describes its details." Granted, it will be a long time before the sciences have the details in all. But right now, the consensus is that human consciousness is (a) a product of the brain (b) mechanistic. -Which, specifically, is my interest. References: Crick. Dennett. Watson. Newsome. Baylor. Etc. I'm squarely in this camp. Soon there will be a belief discipline practice --focused on life guidance-- that we can trust (in other words have faith in) -- that bases itself on this understanding, that doesn't retreat from it, that is adapted to it, and I hope it comes in my life time. I think it will.
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jstan
climber
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104:
You are a theorist at heart. That actually has been the principal motivation of some leading practitioners. They find themselves attracted to an idea for its symmetry, simplicity, or "beauty." But that is when the WORK begins.
First comes the task of working through the math for an idea that predicts the consequences that could be observed if the beautiful idea were true.
String theory has been in this stage for maybe forty years, Bohm's hidden variable theory has been in it for maybe sixty years. Only time and effort will tell the tale.
This is the supreme barrier every theory must surmount. You have to be able to show the theory has a consequence in the real world that can be measured. Not only have western "religions" failed to sumount this barrier, they have frantically run away from this test at every juncture.
I think they do this because they know, some even consciously, their idea is entirely imaginary. They know there is no snake.
If the idea succeeds in getting someone's attention then begins the effort to make measurements to show those consequences are/are not present. We have been actively looking for gravity waves since 1950 at least. Really fascinating theories cause people to start looking before the technology to permit a search has even been invented. Sixty years into it Einstein's 1905 prediction is beginning to look as though we may finally have the tools. The computer, the laser, and infrared detectors have begun to put the effort within reach. The discussion on the sun's apparent neutrino deficit is an excellent example of the lengths to which we must go to make a theory into a working model. Ultimately they all are hypotheses, of course, because the efforts to find improvements, and further tests of a theory begin before the ink is even dry.
I think, if you are not afraid of work, if you are not afraid of being shown to be wrong, study of the natural world, our cathedral, our house, has no equal.
If Jesus had had the telescopes, he would have been studying the sky. If we could resurrect Jesus and Galileo together we would have an incredible discussion.
And I have no doubt whatsoever Galileo's house arrest would at last - be ended.
Every one of us is piteously shamed for so long as Galileo remains a prisoner.
After reading Ed's truly excellent piece a question about how to define what a human is, what consciousness is, poses itself.
When we want to define a piece of metal we first get a pair of micrometer calipers, and we jot down measuements of its size.
Now nearly 6000 posts into this thread we should have no trouble joting down one defining characteristic of "a human."
A human wants to learn, wants to grow, and wants to "know." This is a hallmark of consciousness.
This desire, this characteristic, has caused the creation of "religion." This same characteristic has caused creation of the scientific method.
Fraternal twins now locked in mortal combat.
Edit: I wrote the above simply because Base104 is clearly into the core of what happens when knowledge is expanded.
I have always been entirely happy to let those following a religion BE as long as they let me BE. Increasingly we ourselves are not being allowed to BE. So it is I have come to feel that where there is a conflict, we need to let that problem be visible.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Tall Silos of Iowa
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"Mechanistic, yes. Predictable, no."
Agreed.
What used to "irk" me-
When I worked in neuroscience, every once in awhile a memo would come out saying we should cover up any posters, pictures, etc in our labs that were in any way pro-evolutionary or pro-Darwinian-- because a potential benefactor would be on tour who was Oldbook Christian.
It's an art-- balancing ideology, politics and hypocrisy. Isn't it?
P.S. I thank the Gods everyday American culture doesn't have as many oldbook devotees as the Muslim world. I really don't know how it's going to change in any "managed transition" style. I think it really is fated to the Hurt Locker for decades to come.
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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I like the way the thread's going - the idea that violent communication ("just stupid", "retard", "total tool idiot") is not going to help us make progress.
We all have different information, both internal (our natures) and external (our experiences). The idea that we all should come to the same conclusion using different information - to believe in god, to not believe in god, to be bitter, to not be bitter - might not be reasonable, but that doesn't stop us from believing that we - I mean others - should.
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MH2
climber
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Philosophy is written in this very great book
which always lies open before our eyes (I mean the universe),
but one cannot understand it unless one first learns to understand
the language and recognize the characters in which it is written.
It is written in mathematical language and
the characters are triangles, circles, and other geometrical figures;
without these means it is humanly impossible to understand a word of it;
without these there is only clueless scrabbling around in a dark labyrinth.
--Galileo
I bet the Church was pleased to hear that!
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MH2
climber
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We sometimes hear that 'the only constant is change.'
Change is surely seen high and low, over short and long spans, here, there, and everywhere.
So why is it seemingly so hard to change the mind of a Creationist?
from Einstein:
"Something general will have to be said . . . about the points of view from which physical theories may be analyzed critically . . . The first point of view is obvious: the theory must not contradict empirical facts . . . The second point of view..."
Let's stop there for the moment. Perhaps it simply is not possible for a Creationist to change their mind about a piece of religious dogma. We need to add a 0th point of view, which would grant enough mental flexibility to rethink an idea when evidence flatly contradicted it.
Changes in DNA are what allows for biological evolution to occur. DNA is a form of information and it replicates itself, though not always perfectly. Fallibility is necessary for ultimately useful adaptation. It just takes time.
Whether we as a civilization or as a species survive any longer than we have, it is marvelous that a molecule has managed to produce a system clever enough to determine the base-pair sequence of that molecule.
Take a bow, DNA.
Now if only the human mind could do something similar for itself.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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It is the role of miracle to show that the impossible was made possible by divine intervention, thus demonstrating the existence of an agent that could cause the impossible to occur.
The witness to miracle demonstrates by their purity and adherence to faith an acceptance of a phenomena which cannot be explained by any means other than the super-natural intervention.
The existence of empirical facts is thus necessary to prove that things occur that lay beyond the facts.
The creationist, in the end, abandons all rational explanation of their belief and states that the way of the world is the work of an ultimately incomprehensible god.
How can you argue with that?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 3, 2010 - 10:58pm PT
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Always worth a second post for a good laugh!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I like being described as a conservative....
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MH2
climber
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The creationist appears to abandon reason, but they may still have questions, and wonder.
"There exists a passion for comprehension, just as there exists a passion for music. That passion is rather common in children, but gets lost in most people later on. Without this passion there would be neither mathematics nor natural science. Time and again the passion for understanding has led to the illusion that man is able to comprehend the objective world rationally, by pure thought, withouth any empirical foundations - in short, by metaphysics. I believe that every true theorist is a kind of tamed metaphysicist, no matter how pure a 'positivist' he may fancy himself. The metaphysicist believes that the logically simple is also the real. The tamed metaphysicist believes that not all that is logically simple is embodied in experienced reality, but that the totality of all sensory experience can be 'comprehended' on the basis of a conceptual system built on premises of great simplicity. The skeptic will say that this is a 'miracle creed.' Admittedly so, but it is a miracle creed which has been borne out to an amazing extent by the development of science."
Einstein in "On the Generalized Theory of Gravitation," 1950
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MH2
climber
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Say, Norton, congratulations on the previous thread on salamanders. Maybe you should have stuck with them. According to one of the pages on Amphibiaweb they make excellent subjects for questions about natural selection. Maybe the creationists would be more accepting of evolution in salamanders. Start small and work up.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 3, 2010 - 11:17pm PT
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yes, and from what I have read, Fruit Flies are fantastic to study
because of the speed of their generational reproduction and genetic altering
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jstan
climber
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Dr. F:
Somewhere I posted exactly what Ed said. Science is concerned only with the material world. The existence of god is irrelevant to science. Science is neither for nor against god.
In the case where god does not exist and has therefore had no impact upon the material world, this statement is trivially true. Now were we to find some evidence that a god has had some effect science will still be neither for nor against god. But let me assure you, god will immediately suffer a lot of prodding and poking as we try to figure god out.
So what is this thread about?
If we are to say the material world is affected by something we assume to exist without any data or obvious reason for so believing
we must surrender ourselves to irrationality.
Look at life in those countries where the majority of persons have surrendered their rationality.
Then ask why it is you are living here and not there.
Really.
Be honest.
Separation of church and state is the firewall our founders gave us.
It must be defended.
Believers need that firewall just as much as do the non-believers.
Do you want a change in government potentially to mean you must pray to a different god?
Christ himself gave us that advice.
The situation is so clear the mere existence of this discussion shows us that irrationality has overtaken us.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Separation of church and state is the firewall our founders gave us.
It must be defended.
Yes, and let us not forget that science can be misused by political true believers for their own ends as well. Hitler's racist theories which killed over six million people, were grounded in supposed science.
That science was itself biased by the European racial and religious prejudice of the day which misunderstood evolution applied to human beings and then labeled it Social Darwinism.
And the religious people for the most part said nothing either to the false science nor to the politicians who sold it, even though if they had truly followed the teaching of Jesus they would have stood against it.
I say beware of all true believers whether atheists or religionists. True science and true spirituality are both always humble in the face of the unknown - as Ed, jstan, and Base 104 have so well illustrated in their recent science postings and as some have also, in the spiritual posts as well.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Tall Silos of Iowa
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Which God?!
Break the habit-- the social habit, the cultural habit, the thought habit-- of letting the Jewish and Christian religionists get away with calling their God Jehovah God. Require them-- in their conversations with you-- to be specific.
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MH2
climber
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Science and religion as fraternal twins locked in mortal combat? Oh, for the good old days.
"It's time to look at Leibniz's Discourse on Metaphysics. Modern science was just beginning back then. And the question that Leibniz raises is, how can we tell the difference between a world governed by law - one in which science can apply - and a lawless world?
[discussion of simplicity]
The way that Leibniz summarizes his view of what precisely it is that makes scientific enterprise possible is this: 'God has chosen that which is the most perfect, that is to say, in which at the same time the hypotheses are as simple as possible and the phenomena as rich as possible.'"
from Gregory Chaitin Metamath: the Search for Omega p 63
Although evolution appears to create diversity as great as the number of niches available to it, it seems to me that the nervous system, while perhaps increasing in complexity, is nevertheless on a path towards finding patterns, or simplicity, in the natural world, which can improve that organism's chances for survival. When I was doing neurophysiology on pigeons I was struck by how beautifully ordered the neurons are when you look at histological slides of brain nuclei. At the time it seemed to suggest that birds, with their great need to reduce weight, had stripped their central nervous system to the chassis. The ordered arrays seen in the brains of all creatures could be a reflection of order in the world they live in.
Chaitin says, "Perhaps our emphasis on simplicity says more about us than it says about the universe!" And perhaps there is a connection.
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WBraun
climber
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Not knowing the real science of life, a foolish person engages in the temporary activities of this life and thus becomes further entangled in the cycle of birth and death.
We are becomimg prisoners of the fragmentary authority of materialistic science for knowing things.
Material advancement of civilization means advancement of the reactions of the threefold miseries due to celestial influence, earthly reactions and bodily or mental pains.
By the celestial influence of the stars there are many calamities like excessive heat, cold, rains or no rains, and the aftereffects are famine, disease and epidemic. The aggregate result is agony of the body and the mind.
Man-made material science cannot do anything to counteract these threefold miseries.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Tall Silos of Iowa
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I promise you guys, and Jan!, there would be a lot less potential for miscommunication (if in fact that's the goal) if we'd all make a point to specify which God. Which God? God Zeus. God Jehovah. God Quezalcoatl. Etc.
Break the ingrained habit-- the social habit, the cultural habit, the thought habit-- of letting the Jewish and Christian religionists get away with calling their God Jehovah God. Require them-- in their conversations with you-- to be specific.
When we were students in school, we were required to (a) not dangle participles (dangling participles) in English class, (b) not forget to include "units" in math and science classes. Inches or millimeters? BTUs or kilojoules? Why? Because it leads to trouble. In communications. In understanding.
So, we can at least try on this thread, as an experiment, to stop dangling deities. Can't we? It would greatly improve the communications and I for one would be a lot more interested in the discourse.
Just sayin.
Here's an example: As far as I'm concerned, my science and engineering background speaks loudly to the truth-claim that God Aphrodite (of ancient Egypt) emerged into being from sea foam. Take into account the human factor (e.g., that humans are storytellers, storycrafters, exaggerators, over-inflators, etc.) and this makes it all the more compelling that She did not). Similarly my science and engineering background along with the human factor just cited convinced me long ago that God Jehovah (of the three Abrahamic religions) did not appear as fire or cloud to guide the ancient Hebrews or impregnate Mary with a God Jesus.
re: Aphrodite emerged from sea foam. In the context of story, narrative, yes. But in the context of (a) how the world truly works and (b) how life truly works, no. So even here, too, it's important to be clear on context. No context-dangling either.
Just try it. By the way, the name amongst my circle of friends for Einstein's God (the Einsteinian God) is Diacrates. (dii ak' ruh tees). Try it. It works! Then you can readily distinguish between God Jehovah (the ancient Mesopotamian one of the ancient Hebrews) and God Diacrates (the personification of the higher powers of fate). Not only in dialog with others but in your own mind in your own thinking.
Or just carry on bantering back n forth in a crazyquilt of undefined babble. In a signal-to-noise ratio approaching zero.
For what it's worth, I'm "open" to a God Diacrates. And "settled" in regard to all ancient Mesopotamian Gods, including God Jehovah / God Jesus. The latter for the same reason I'm "settled" as far as decision-making goes in regard to Aphrodite and Amon-Re and Marduk.
If you're interested: the etymology for Diacrates: [< Gr dia-, through (high force or power) + kratein, to rule] (Yes, it is a modern neologism inspired by a modern understanding of theologies.)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2010 - 02:50pm PT
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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weschrist- "Ready to discuss the SCIENTIFIC DOCUMENTATION when you are."
wes- "I don't give a flying fuk about the cities in your fairy tale book. I do care about idiots like you spreading misinformation in order to support your beliefs, and then claiming science has proven your lies."
wes- "Nice try at the deflection though...liar!"
777(Trip~)-"Earthquakes have increased tenfold over the last century!"
SCIENTIFIC DOCUMENTATION!!
USGS data concerning earthquakes of a magnitude 6.0 and larger!
1900-1950 = 74
1951-2000 = 109
2001-2009 = 144
In the first 9 years of 21st Century, we have seen close to 1.5(1 1/2)times as many 6.0 and above earthquakes as we had from 1951-2000.
And we are rapidly approaching the total for the 20th Century!!
Magnitude 6.0 and above:
1900-2000 = 183
2001-2010 = 144(and we 11 months left in 2010)!
That is rapidly approaching a TEN(10)FOLD INCREASE!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Tall Silos of Iowa
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Wes- I hear ya, I know what you're talkin' about.
I, too, had a long personal history with it, the bronze age ignorance.
Rife n contemporary times. And coming to terms with it.
But my stategy is not to let these oldbook types wind me up. (On this thread, we know who they are.) My life strategy is just to move on and build up my own belief discipline practice. And then to work to live up to it. Which isn't always easy.
I see it this way. We could've been "fated" to the 17th century in an oldbook community (where working on the Sabbath and engaging in oral sex were punishable) instead of the 21st century where sports, rock n roll and climbing are rife in our lives. That would've been ghastly.
Bottom line: I hear ya!
del Cross- Let's hear it for telemetry, eh?
Hadrian: Brick by Brick.
Ghandi: Be the change you seek in the world.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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del cross!
SCIENTIFIC DOCUMENTATION:
1991-2000(10years) = 23 earthquakes with a magnitude of 6.0 or larger.
2001-2010(9yrs) = 144 earthquakes...6.0 or larger. .
I am sure they have had the majority of those seismographs/communications in place by the 90's!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Trippy, your documentation is bogus. The bottom line is earthquakes happen according to stochastic underlying conditions in the earth's crust. They have always happened and they always will happen until the planet cools down to the point that convection in the mantle stops and the continents grind to a halt. Frequency of earthquakes is meaningless in terms of anything but your outrageously extrapolated Jesus fairy tale.
You WANT the world to come to some fantastic end, and so did your pal Jesus. Unfortunately for you, you live in a world where these things are actually understood in rational terms, so the effect of your efforts to frighten everyone with dire, dusty old predictions is about nil, unless your audience shares your enthusiasm for this wicked, wicked world to just go away. Good luck with that.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Tall Silos of Iowa
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You WANT the world to come to some fantastic end, and so did your pal Jesus.
Cintune- I would've said your pal, Pat Robertson.
But I get your point. Good work!
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Less than 3 earthquakes >= 6.0 worldwide each year from 1991-2000???
777, your scientific education has let you down.
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WBraun
climber
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Our present civilization is a mistaken civilization because the mistaken leaders have forgotten to raise the anchor of attachment.
Instead, the anchor is being more and more firmly fixed because they have structured the social order on the basis of sense gratification.
This sense gratifying social and political set-up, is maintained by various plans and schemes.
The leaders, like the boatmen, are all illusioned.
They mislead us into taking some temporary benefit, but how long can their plans and schemes go on?
If they persist until they die of heart failure or are killed by assassins, then another just like them takes their place.
Even the so-called philosophers of modern society are captivated by material name and fame, and so they do not lead the general populace in the proper direction.
Thus the anchor of life remains deeply fixed in the waters of nescience for the purpose of sense gratification, and thus our so-called civilization rots in a stagnant pool.
Because we are not moving, we are always in the same port of problematic life.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Wes!
I do here you in regards to SLC Utah.
My father was a carpenter, not a big bucks contractor, he was a simple carpenter. We moved 18 times between kindergarten and twelfth grade, and I went to twelve different schools.
So, the beginning of 7th grade was particularly difficult. We left Upland CA and moved to SLC in Nov. 1962. My father was getting on in years, he was 59 yrs old, with a bad back. When I was young he fell several stories off a building they were framing and broke his back and barely lived. Was in the hospital 9 months.
But he was a damn good carpenter/foreman of many jobs.
We hit a low that Nov. 62' and had to move to Utah and live with my sister and her husband. My father went to work at a new lodge they were building for a new ski area...Park City.
Anyway, we were living in a rural town west of SLC called Magna Utah. 99% Mormon. Our family was Catholic. Which they(Mormons) considered worse than the Pagan nonbelievers. Catholics were the devil's chidren.
So I start this new Jr. High school, 7th grade. I got to know one kid, became pretty good friends with him during the 2+ months I was at that school. He was a Ute, a Native American. He lived on the Reservation which was next to Magna. He told me that the Mormons called them dogs(the Ute)heathens, just below mankind etc. And the tribe had another strike against them, being that they were Catholic.
After I had been there a month, I got to know this one kid that rode the bus to school with me. He lived about a mile or two away.
One Saturday he invited me over to his farm house. I couldn't believe all the garbage he was saying in regards to this friend of his that lived close by. He said this kid was a pagan, not as low as the Utes etc etc. I can't remember all the derogatory language he used but he considered this kid(neighbor) realy low.
Somewhere along the road over to visit this kid, I came to the realization that this new friend I was visiting assumed that I was a Mormon. So we visit this kid. and he points out behind his back and so forth how God considers him this and that, he's not like us, but that there was hope for him etc. All the while using LDS terminology as if I was privy to his denigrating nature.
We are on our way back to his place and somehow the conversation turns to Jesus, and how the Catholic church believes He is God there all devils yadyada...I am doing a very poor job of putting on paper this loathing that poured out of him, and all along he thought he had a new friend of the same order or elevation as himself.
So at some point, I had all I could take, and I told him I was a Catholic, and I new for a fact that Jesus was God. One sentence. I wasn't the arguing type. Well all hell broke loose. The kid couldn't believe it at first then he went berserk. Something about how he had let the devil inside his house and went into this bitter rage.
I recall him, his brother and a couple of his friends shoving and kicking and spitting on me for about half the way home. I'll never forget his the hatred and bitterness that raged, poured out of him. It was beyond shocking. I wasn't afraid, just amazed and hurt. All the time thinking, were did this come from.
I hated going to that school, thank God it only lasted another month or two. For everyday was a confrontation with this kid and his numerous friends, pushing and spitting and spewing out hate. I remember standing outside and staring up at the stars every morning as I waited for the bus each morning. I precisely remember asking God "How could You have created all those stars and the sun and moon, and created such a hateful people as this.
I have met many LDS(Mormon)since, and have enjoyed their company and friendship. Perhaps it was an isolated/rural nature of the place and time that had an effect of there beliefs.
We moved over to the more suburban side of SLC, and I made some pretty good friends there. A few were somewhat similar. But many were more excepting.
But you are right, there were few Catholic churches in SLC. I recall only one. We went a couple(1-2)times.
EDIT: I thought of that Ute friend of mine alot as I was growing up, he had to stay there and put up with all the degradation, he lived on the reservation. He is probably still there.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Tall Silos of Iowa
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Braun- Our present civilization is a mistaken civilization because the mistaken leaders have forgotten to raise the anchor of attachment.
Instead, the anchor is being more and more firmly fixed because they have structured the social order on the basis of sense gratification.
This sense gratifying social and political set-up, is maintained by various plans and schemes.
The leaders, like the boatmen, are all illusioned.
You're thinking of the Abrahamic institutions. You should call em out. By name. Judaism. Christianity. Islam.
Science is setting the ship to rights. It just takes time. Brick by brick, said Hadrian.
And everyday engineering products-- from planes to computers to scuba diving equipment-- are everyday proof of it. Yeah, baby!
EDIT We're developing a history, Brawny. It's turbulent. Careful, I might have to put you in with G and Seven. Just sayin.
You still haven't answered my other question. You remember: What makes a cheetah go?
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WBraun
climber
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Don't even try to put your thoughts into my head which you are trying to do.
Don't project your mental speculations and try to attribute them to me.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Your thoughts aren't even your thoughts Werner.
All I have to do is cut a piece of almost any of your posts, paste it into Google, and voila -- I see that you are cutting and pasting without attribution.
Our present civilization is therefore a mistaken civilization because the mistaken leaders have forgotten to raise the anchor of attachment.
from paragraph #16 here:
http://krishna.org/natural-disasters/
Do you ever think for yourself?
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WBraun
climber
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You fool, Wanda, I just said that in my above post.
Don't project your mental speculations and try to attribute them to me.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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monolith!
Google: List of 20th century carthquakes.
Its Wikepedia! USGS stats for earthquakes 6.0 and over from 1990-2000.
What don't you get?
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Clearly you missed Del Cross's post with the usgs stats.
Just plain old common sense will say there were many more than 2.3 6.0 or larger earthquakes a year in the 90's.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Whatever GobeeBraun.
You are not using quotation marks nor citing your sources. You are presenting someone else's thoughts as if they were your own.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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monolith!
I have read Del Cross's post!
I read it three/four days ago when he or Wes or someone first posted it, and I read it again today. It states that since the 30's they increased the # of seismographs to 8,000! Surely they had the majority of them in place during the past 20 years! They have had 80 years to increase them.
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WBraun
climber
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Wanda
Oh cry me river, big baby.
This all you do, is try to find anything just anything to rip someone in this thread.
Shows you have no good brain.
That is the sum substance of your intent here.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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So parroting what someone else speculates or thinks is better than speculating or thinking yourself?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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"Chant and be happy." - Srila Prabhupada
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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monolith!
Do me a favor and google: List of 20th century earthquakes
It will be right at the top of the page, the "Wikipedia" one!
And see what you come up with! It list all of them through 1900-2000.
Then you can click to 2001-2010. They are USGS documented.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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UPWARD BOUND / TRUE BELIEVER...
http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
Exclusiveness of the Gospel, The Part 1
Selected Scriptures
Code: 80-233
We have been studying the gospel of Luke, but we have had a few interruptions through the Christmas season, and prior to that I interrupted our study of the gospel of Luke, or rather enhanced our study of the gospel of Luke, with a series on deliverance. That series has been widely heard and will continue to be. And I'm very grateful for that. There was one element to that series that I really left out. And so I want to address that this morning and next Lord's day morning and then we'll get back to our study of Luke.
When you do Bible exposition the way that I do, you get into a book, you stay a long time. And so, issues arise that have to be addressed and so sometimes we have to take a bit of a rabbit trail away from the main road in order to deal with an issue. This is a very, very pertinent issue.
It would seem that everybody in evangelical Christianity, everybody who is truly a Christian, would understand that the gospel is the heart of Christianity, that the gospel is found only in the Scripture. And that the gospel must be preached to the ends of the earth.
I grew up understanding that. My theological education affirmed it. My years of studying the Bible has sealed that affirmation. The heart of the Christian faith is the gospel. The gospel is found in the New Testament. The foundations of the gospel are found in the Old Testament. And the gospel must be preached to the ends of the earth if people are to be saved. That's essentially the Christian mission.
That's what the church has believed. That has compelled its life. That has been its mandate. Jesus said, "Go into all the world and make disciples, baptizing them in My name and teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you." He said it another way. "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."
That has been the church's mandate. True Christians have always believed that. The true church has always taught that. We have believed and been compelled by the fact that if people don't hear the gospel, they can't be saved. And if they aren't saved, then they'll spend eternity in hell under the judgment of God. So it is absolutely critical that the world hear the gospel of Jesus Christ. That they not only hear it but that they understand it accurately. That they believe it. That they embrace it for themselves because it is the only saving truth.
Compelled by this clear biblical mandate, Christians through the centuries have taken the saving message to the ends of the earth. Generation after generation they have been engaged in doing this. Preaching the gospel to every person on earth has been the goal of the church. I have told you many times that that's the only reason we're still here. We're already saved and sealed for eternity. There's no reason to leave us here except for this responsibility of evangelism.
Now we believe that the Bible is very clear that salvation comes through believing in Christ. Believing in Christ comes from hearing and understanding the gospel. Being able to hear and understand the gospel can only occur if somebody takes the message. And somebody can only take the message if they're sent with it. And that's what Romans 10 says, "You're saved by believing in Christ but you can't believe in Christ unless you hear about Christ. You can't hear about Christ unless somebody preaches. And somebody is not going to preach unless they're sent. And that is our mandate and that has been the mission of the church since the church was born on Pentecost and Jesus said, "You'll receive the Holy Spirit and you'll be witnesses unto Me in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and the uttermost part of the earth." Since the church was launched till today, uncounted millions of dollars in every currency on the map of the world and millions of hours of effort and work and millions of Christian people through the centuries have been spent and sacrificed to take the only message of salvation to the edges of the earth. Translation work, rigorous, difficult, challenging work of taking a language that isn't even written and developing an alphabet and developing a way to write that language and then teaching the people to read their own language when they've never even seen it. And then giving them the scriptures and the gospel, leading them to Christ, rigorous work that takes decades and then printing materials in every language, preaching, teaching, evangelizing...that's what the church has been engaged in since its calling, since the arrival of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. An unrelenting effort to use every means available to reach people with the only message that can save them from eternal judgment and that's the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
And here we are now at the start of the new millennium, this is the official start, the year 2001. And at the start of this new millennium we have greater means to take the gospel to the ends of the world than we've ever had. Technology, sophistication in the application of that technology to every imaginable medium of communication has given us greater power now than ever to bring the gospel to the end of the earth.
And isn't it amazing that at this point in time the enemy of men's souls, the enemy of God, the arch rival of God, Satan himself, has cranked up his efforts to prevent this. He's done it in a couple of interesting ways. One is to make the church confused about what the gospel is. And over the last fifteen years this has been a battle that I've been engaged in with some others to try to make sure that Christian people understand what the gospel is. It doesn't do any good to have the technology, it doesn't do any good to have the opportunity, it doesn't do any good to have the financial means, it doesn't do any good to have the manpower to take the message to the ends of the earth if you don't know what the message is? And so it's certainly a very wise strategy on the part of the enemy of men's souls to confuse the church about the message.
So, along with many others, I've been engaged in writing books to try to clarify for Christians, quote/unquote, what the gospel is because the church has become confused about the gospel. They're not really sure whether Jesus is Lord or not. Whether He needs to be Lord or not. It doesn't seem to be important to the church anymore that people understand the true biblical doctrine of justification by faith alone, grace alone in Christ alone. It doesn't seem to be important to some people that there's repentance of sin and that we preach repentance. In fact, some people think that's some kind of an intrusion into grace. There's a failure to understand the doctrine of substitution and imputation, that is the true understanding that our sins were imputed fully to a substitute who died in our place and that we contribute nothing to our salvation except faith in that substitute.
So, here we are as an evangelical church confused about the message. And you hear, as I mentioned a few weeks ago, a pastor of a very large evangelical church make a statement like, "The Reformation was overrated as to its importance." Well, what the Reformation did was define the gospel. Not only do we not know what the gospel is largely, we're not even sure it's important to get it right. That's a tragic thing. Here we are on the brink of really the greatest potential to spread the gospel to the ends of the earth and we're not sure what it is.
And the church in the process has got shallower and shallower. There are a number of reasons why. One of them is because churches have proliferated everywhere honestly that are being pastored by men who are unskilled, untrained and don't have the theological background to be able to define things biblically and with any depth. Another is, there is this concern not to offend anybody, make church fun and entertaining and so we create some kind of synthetic gospel that doesn't have enough truth in it to save anybody.
Now all of that is bad enough and we've tried to address that. But there's a new wave in the evangelical world that is at least as frightening, if not more frightening. And the new wave in the evangelical world is this, there are some people who are telling us it isn't necessary to even take the gospel to the ends of the earth. It's not necessary. People are being saved without it...without it.
Now this view has some labels. Let me just...let me just give you a little teaching here. This is a theology class for a few minutes. You can handle it, I know. If I can understand it, you can understand it. What is the name for this...this idea that somebody can get saved, somebody can get into the Kingdom of God, somebody can go to heaven without the gospel? This is one name, Natural Theology...that is that man naturally can ascend to a knowledge of God, can ascend to a relationship to God, can ascend by his reason and his innate desire to do what is right to comply to God's will. This is natural. That is to say opposite of supernatural.
Supernatural Theology says God has to come down and save man. Natural Theology says man can climb up to God. That's...he can approach God on the natural level. This is to say that man has the natural reasoning process and power to come to God to be saved without the Scripture. Advocates say mankind may discover the existence of God, may discover the attributes of God, he may discover the nature of God by human reason apart from scriptural revelation. Man is capable of knowing God, knowing the truth about God and knowing God's will without the Bible. His reason is sufficient.
Now obviously to believe that you could not have a Reformed view of depravity. You would have to believe that man has not only innate reasoning power but innate goodness to pursue that, to pursue righteousness. So people who advocate this have a flawed view of man's depravity. But what they advocate is that man can make it to heaven without the Bible. He can make it to heaven without the gospel. So what's all the missionary fuss about? You don't need repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ, as Paul said he had to preach in Acts 20. The lost do not need to hear the gospel. They don't need to have a Bible. We don't need all this translation work. We don't need all these people sacrificing their lives in remote areas with small tribes of people to try to get them the Bible and the Word of God and the gospel that saves because they can be saved without it.
A couple of weeks ago I quoted from the L.A. Times, December 9 quote from the Pope just to show you that the Catholic Church believes this. Pope John Paul II said this week, "That all who live a just life will be saved, even if they do not believe in Jesus Christ and the Roman Catholic Church." The Pope went on to say, quote: "The gospel teaches us that those who live in accordance with the Beatitudes, poor in spirit, the pure in heart, those who bear lovingly the sufferings of life, will enter God's Kingdom," end quote. The Pope is taking an inclusive view of salvation. The biblical teaching that salvation only comes in response to faith in Jesus Christ is rejected as unreasonable and cruel by people who believe this. The heathen are saved if they just live good lives, if they're just poor in spirit, if they are pure in heart and if they pursue what is right. They live good lives and they are sincere. It doesn't really matter what they believe.
That is why Catholic apologist Peter Kreef(?) who wrote the book Ecumenical Jihad can say that there are Buddhists and there are Hindus and there are Confucinists and there are Muslims and there are atheists and there orthodox Jews all in heaven because Christ is not the issue, the gospel is not the issue, the Bible is not the issue...sincerity and goodness is the issue. And this is the Natural Theology idea that man by his natural powers, his reasoning powers and some innate goodness can ascend to the knowledge of God and the will of God and please God and earn salvation whether he ever sees a Bible or ever hears about Jesus Christ. The Pope simply affirming what Catholic theology has long believed.
This is somehow motivated by some human conception of fairness. It's not fair somehow for somebody somewhere not to be able to be saved when they don't have immediate access to the gospel. But it's not just a Catholic view, and I'm going to reiterate something I read to you a few weeks ago because I want it on this tape. There was an interview that was held between Robert Schuller and Dr. Billy Graham on the Hour of Power. I have the transcript of that conversation.
The conversation went like this.
Dr. Schuller said, "Tell me, what is the future of Christianity?"
Dr. Graham said, "I think there's the body of Christ which comes from all the Christian groups around the world, or outside the Christian groups. I think everybody that loves Christ or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the body of Christ. And I don't think we're going to see a great sweeping revival that will turn the whole world to Christ at any time." In other words, what he is saying is there are people in the body of Christ who have never heard of Christ so we don't need to expect that they're all going to come to Christ. They're going to come another way.
Further he says, "God's purpose for this age is to call out a people for His name and that's what God is doing today. He's calling people out of the world for His name whether they come from the Muslim world or the Buddhist world or the Christian world or the non-believing world, they are members of the body of Christ because they've been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus but they know in their hearts that they need something that they don't have and they turn to the only light they have and I think they're saved and they're going to be with us in heaven."
Dr. Schuller responded, "What I hear you saying is that it's possible for Jesus Christ to come into a human heart and soul and life even if they've been born in darkness and never heard and never had exposure to the Bible. Is that a correct interpretation of what you're saying."
Dr. Graham: "Yes it is because I believe that. I've met people in various parts of the world in tribal situations, they have never seen a Bible or heard about a Bible, have never heard of Jesus but they've believed in their hearts that there is a God and they've tried to live a life that was quite apart from the surrounding community in which they lived."
Dr. Schuller: "This is fantastic. I'm so thrilled to hear you say that. There is a wideness in God's mercy."
Dr. Graham: "There is, there certainly is."
This has certainly leaped from Aristotle to the Catholic Church into the evangelical Protestantism. Now we have a kind of Protestant viewpoint that says Muslims and Hindus and whoever are going to be in the body of Christ in the Kingdom in heaven with salvation whether they ever get a Bible or whether they ever hear the gospel, or whether they ever know about Jesus Christ. The Billy Graham Organization affirmed this position is the same as the one articulated in an article in Decision Magazine which Billy wrote in 1960 so this is not something new.
Now this introduces us to the sort of evangelical side of this and there's a term being used today to describe it, it's called The Wider Mercy View which is a little easier to handle than the Natural Theology view...the idea that man in his depraved condition can find God, find God's will, live a righteous life and please God is...that's impossible to prove by Scripture. So rather than posture yourself as a Natural theologian, you'd rather be a supernatural theologian so you come up with another title, The Wider Mercy View, that there's this wider latitude, there's this inclusive view in which the Lord is going to include everybody. And what it essentially says is that people can be saved in any religion.
Clark Pinnoch(?) when I was a student in seminary, he wrote a book called Set Forth Your Case which was really a fine Christian apologetic, a Christian evidentialism book. He was, you know, a great champion for the Christian faith. He has since wandered far away and apostatized from that to the point where he now is probably the leading proponent of this Wider Mercy view. And I'll quote, he says this, "When we approach the man of faith other than our own...somebody in another religion...it will be in a spirit of expectancy to find out how God has been speaking to him and what new understanding of the grace and love of God we may ourselves discover in this encounter. Our first task in approaching another people, another culture, another religion is to take off our shoes, the place we are approaching is holy. Else we find ourselves treading on men's dreams. More, we may forget that God was here before our arrival."
Now that redefines missions pretty significantly. Instead of going into a tribe and saying...These people are lost, these people are doomed, in darkness. You walk in there and you say you're standing on holy ground because God has been there in the form of their paganism. He adds, does Pinnoch, "God has more going on by way of redemption than what happened in first century Palestine," end quote.
I can't imagine a more disastrous belief than that. God has more going on by way of redemption than what happened in first century Palestine? What does that say? That says that the life and death and resurrection of Jesus Christ was just one thing in the midst of many, rather than the single greatest event in all redemptive history. That depreciates Christ. That depreciates His incarnation, His virgin birth, His incarnation, His sinless life, His substitutionary death, His bodily resurrection, His ascension, His intercession, the Second Coming...everything if Christ is just one among many. This is a regurgitation of an old Greek heresy that the Apostle John dealt with called "The Universal Logos," where the Christ's Spirit is floating around injecting Himself into every religion. It also attacks the trinity because only biblical Christianity affirms that God is a trinity. Even Mormons deny that.
You say, "This is confusing." Well yes. I think I know what you're thinking not because I'm omniscient but because you probably think like I do. And what you're thinking is...how can people believe this? How can they believe this when the Bible says salvation is in Christ alone? Right? John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man comes unto the Father but by Me." Pretty clear. Acts 4:12, "Neither is there salvation in any other. There is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved." We know that. Jesus says in John 7, "Because you believe not in Me, you'll die in your sins and where I go you'll never come."
Believing in Jesus to anybody who reads the New Testament is the only way to be saved. There's no other Savior. There's only one Mediator, says Paul in Timothy. There's only one Mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus. Only one Mediator.
How do they deal with this? Some of these people talk about Jesus every time they're on the television, every time they get up and speak. What are they talking about? What are they saying? To say Jesus is the only Savior, Jesus is the only Savior, and then to say that Muslims and Buddhists and animists and who knows what all over the place are all going to be in the body of Christ and they're all going to be in the Kingdom and all going to be in heaven? How does that work?
And here is the answer to that. You can find it in the writings of people like Clark Pinnoch and Sanders and others who write on this. Here's what they're saying. They're saying the work of Christ is the only basis of salvation but it's not necessary to know that. In other words, whatever religion you're in, if you believe in God however you imagine God to be and if you try to do what is right and try to do what's good and religious, you're going to be saved by Christ, even though you didn't know who He was. You didn't know that God was a trinity. You didn't know God had revealed Himself in Christ. You didn't know Christ lived and died and rose again. You don't know anything about that but Christ is still going to be your Savior. He still would have paid the price for your sins.
So that they would say He is the only Savior but He has atoned for and paid the price for the sins of people who will never know about a Bible and will never know about Jesus Christ. They will still directly benefit from His work on the cross without ever knowing it.
Mother Teresa was very true to her Catholic faith. I was...my family and I went to visit her when we were in Calcutta. We gave her a copy of the book The Gospel According To Jesus. And it was an interesting occasion. She's a very gracious woman, very strong, very gracious little four-foot lady. And the kids wanted to give her this book and so they did. And she said she would read it but Mother Teresa was very, very true to her Catholic faith. She's a very true Catholic. She understood Catholicism very well. In the front of a Bible which she autographed she wrote, "May you enter into the heart of Jesus through the Virgin Mary," and signed her name. So she believed that salvation is by virtue of Mary. And that's very true of the Catholic faith.
Another thing that was true to the Catholic faith was...we went into her home for the sick and dying in Calcutta. And on the walls were Hindu gods, pictures of the Hindu gods, you know, those multi-armed bizarre gods and deities of the Hindus on the walls of this Catholic facility. By the way, it was adjacent to, immediately adjacent to the most vile deviant temple that I have ever seen in my life anywhere in the world, the temple in Calcutta, the Hindu temple where blood sacrifices are made regularly, even as big as an ox. And there is worship there that I wouldn't even describe in a public setting...so deviant. But they're next to each other.
And I...at the time, and I don't think I really understood everything that I now understand...I wondered how she could have pictures of Hindu gods inside her place which were connected to this deviant place next door. I just assumed that this is political correctness, that if you're going to survive in the city of Calcutta, you've got to do deference to the people who rule the nation of India and that's what you do. Later came to understand, however, that this was part of their system...part of their system.
And I'll tell you how it works. A writer by the name of Raymond Pannican(??) has written a book called The Unknown Christ of Hinduism. Isn't that an interesting title? The Unknown Christ of Hinduism. This is what he says. Quote: "The good and bona fide Hindu is saved by Christ and not by Hinduism. But it is through the sacraments of Hinduism, through the message of morality and the good life, through the mysticism that comes down to him through Hinduism that Christ saves the Hindu," end quote.
Everybody's in...good Hindus, good Buddhists, good anybodies, good, you know, people that you see on the Discovery channel running around with spears and bones through their lip. Everybody is going to be in if they're good. You can understand what an unbelievable thing this is to have intruded into evangelicalism, right? You might be able to live with this if it was coming out of Union Seminary in New York, or if it was coming out of some liberal denomination that had already advocated homosexuality in its clergy, or something like that. But to hear the kind of people who are saying this and the kind of people like I mentioned sometime back who endorsed Peter Kreef's book and J.I. Packer who said, "What if he is right?" And in the book this is the entire thesis that Peter Kreef has in his book The Evangelical....or Ecumenical Jihad.
You ask, "How could this get into evangelicalism? How could we succumb to this? How could we buy into this? How could pastors be saying ah, the Reformation doesn't really matter and maybe we really need to redefine missions all together all over the world?" But that's exactly what is happening.
Well all of that to say, we have a major problem. And as you know, I not only speak to you but the Lord has allowed me to speak to a lot of people beyond you. Since Grace To You is on nearly 2,000 times a day, heard by a lot of people in English and I think 500 times a day now in Spanish. When we have something we want to say to the evangelical world, we usually get a platform to say it. So I...I just felt that I needed to address this. And you know, the way to address this is is simply go to the scriptures, right? I mean, I'm not going to give you my opinion, my opinion isn't worth anything.
Well what does the Bible have to say about this? Do we have a biblical case for the...for the exclusivism? Do we have a case for the fact that if you don't know the gospel and if you don't believe in Jesus Christ, you aren't going to heaven?
The answer to that is yes. And we have a biblical case for the fact that Natural Theology isn't going to get anybody anywhere. And we also have a biblical case that God's mercy is extremely narrow. In fact, if you're looking for the word "narrow" you're going to find it in Matthew 7. "It is a...what kind of gate?...narrow gate." So this is a narrow mercy and a supernatural theology. And that's what I want to show you from Scripture.
Now where are we going to start? Well, we're going to start by a general reference, so just sit there, don't get into your Bible right now, just listen for a minute. This is a general reference to Genesis 3, but I don't want you to go there because you'll be looking for verses and I'm not going to refer, I'm only going to do it in a general way.
Genesis 3, you know what happened in Genesis 3, right? Genesis 1 and 2 is creation. Genesis 3 is the Fall of man. Man is created in the image of God and then God creates a partner, Eve. So we have Adam and Eve and they're in a condition of perfection. They have perfect bodies, perfect minds, therefore they have perfect reason. Okay? They live in a perfect environment that is not at all skewed and they have a perfect relationship with the Creator. So this is perfection. Okay? We're in the garden in a perfect environment.
They had perfect minds capable of perfect understanding, capable of perfect reason, capable of perfect conclusions. Still Adam and Eve in the state of perfection could not on their own understand why they were created. They could understand that they were created and could understand that something more powerful than them created them and something with an immense mind, some being that loved beauty and loved order and loved design and had power and gave life and all of that. But they couldn't know why they were created. They couldn't know what they were to do, what they were not to do, how they were to do it, unless there was somebody who told them. They wouldn't know how to respond to their environment, how to function in the garden. So God said to them, "You can eat everything," otherwise they wouldn't have known that. And He said, "Don't eat that, if you do you'll die." And He said, "This is your wife, have babies." And He said, "Name those animals." That's why they were walking and talking with God in the garden because God was giving them special revelation about how they were to relate to Him and how they were to relate to their world.
Natural theologians should be shocked to discover that Adam couldn't know divine truth by his perfect reason. He couldn't by his own reason, his own perfect intellect, he couldn't have come to know that he was not to eat this and to eat this, that he was to name the animals, etc., etc. That he was to tend the garden. God had to tell him all of that.
Robert Morrey(?) says, "Adam was not created to be the origin of truth, justice, morals, meaning and beauty. The Creator walked with man in the garden. These daily sessions were special revelation. And God told man why He created him and what he was supposed to do in the garden. He revealed to man what he could and couldn't eat." In other words, God was the origin and source of truth, justice, morals, meaning and beauty. And man's responsibility was to receive what God revealed. Man was not the origin but the receiver of truth.
And it's true. Adam and Eve would have known something about God but they wouldn't have known what God wanted from them if He hadn't told them. We wouldn't even understand man's pre-fall condition. We wouldn't understand his fallen condition if it wasn't for Genesis 1, 2 and 3. Do you know, you can study the religions of the world, the philosophers of the world, the theologians of the world, none of them ever comes up with the right understanding of man's creation and man's depravity. None of them. They don't ever. Because you can't get there from depraved reasoning.
And remember this. That when Satan got in the garden, perfect man with the perfect mind, perfect understanding, perfect reasoning, in that condition Satan comes in and what does he want Adam and Eve to distrust? Their reason? He says to them, "Has God said..." You can't trust God's Word. See, what Satan always wants us to do is to distrust special revelation and trust our reason. And Satan's leading Eve through this little scenario. Finally he says, "Ah, you're not going to die. You can't believe God. God lies. God said that? You're going to die? Nah, you're not going to die, you're going to be like God. He doesn't like that competition." Satan tempted man to trust his reason and reject revelation from the mouth of God.
God gave them special revelation...don't eat. Satan said...don't believe what God says, trust your reason. That's essentially what Natural Theology says. It's just the lie of Satan in the garden over and over and over again. You can get there through your reason. Don't worry about the Bible. Don't worry about the gospel. You don't need that. You can get there by your own reason.
But look, how could fallen man in a cursed world find God's truth by his perverted reason when perfect man in a perfect world couldn't find God with perfect reason? Adam couldn't know what God wanted if God didn't tell him, and nobody else can know what God wants if God doesn't tell him. And we're in worse shape than Adam and Eve.
And Satan always does the same thing, he always wants to depreciate the special revelation. What a great strategy. Let's convince the church they don't even need to preach the gospel. Tell me where that came from. Heaven? Tell me where that heresy came from. Who has the most at stake to get us to stop preaching the gospel?
Well, let's look at Romans 1. I have time for two quick passages, I have about eight and we'll finish them next time. Now just stay with me because this is very important and I'm going to go through here rapidly. Romans 1:18 to 23. This is one of those monumental passages in the Bible that's extremely definitive, has far-reaching implications. I want you to see man, this is a view of man, this is biblical anthropology.
And it says in verse 18, "For the wrath of God is revealed in heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness because that which is known about God is evident within them for God made it evident to them; for since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen being understood through what has been made so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise they became fools and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures." We'll stop there.
Familiar to many of us. Now let me kind of lay this out. The Bible here is saying that there is evidence about God, verse 19. What is known about God is evident within them. And that's through reason. Reason looks in verse 20 at the creation and says, "There must be a creator." Reason looks at the diversity and says, "He must have an immense mind." It looks at the design and says, "He's a God of order." Looks at the beauty and says, "He's a God of beauty and harmony and all of that." It looks at vast variety and says, "He's a God of immense power and complexity."
Yes, that's true. So...in fact, it's so true and so clear that eternal power and divine nature are visible through reason looking at creation, that it's clearly seen, verse 20, it's clearly seen. You'd have to be...you really do have to commit intellectual suicide to deny there is a cause for the effect of the universe, that there is a creator. So it's just clearly seen. And so clearly seen, at the end of verse 20, that people have no excuse, you have absolutely no excuse for being an evolutionist...none. It's absolute idiocy. It's moronic and he uses the term here for moron, translated fool or foolish. Anybody who sees anything that exists assumes somebody made it. And the universe certainly demands a creator.
So, he says God has given man in him reason and reason looks at creation and concludes certain things about the power and nature of the creator. And he's without excuse.
The problem is this. It doesn't lead him to God. Amazingly, it doesn't lead him to God. It does not lead him to the true God. Why? Back to verse 18, "He suppresses the truth in unrighteousness." Man is so wicked, he is so depraved, he is so vile in his nature, he is so ungodly that his depravity negates the possibility of him coming all the way to God on his own natural powers, rather he suppresses the truth. He dishonors the creator, look at verse 21, even though the knowledge of God is obvious around him as creator, he doesn't know the specifics about God's will or salvation, but at least he can see there's a creator. But he will not honor him as a creator. He will not be thankful to him. This is what depraved man does. I mean, you have even Adam doing this, dishonoring God by disobeying God, turning from special revelation to follow his own human reason and an act of pride. But here he says they do not honor God, they do not give thanks to God. They turn away from God. They suppress the truth and so what they come up with is they become futile, that's empty, in their speculations. They come up with stupid ideas that aren't true, like evolution which is a big lie. It's not true or any human philosophy, or any false religion. They invent empty human ideas that are not reality. And their foolish heart goes dark. There's no light.
They end up with nothing but garbled understanding, verse 22, in their egotism, which is a major part of depravity, they profess to be wise, give themselves Ph.D.s and put on royal and religious robes and cone hats and march around as if they're some great religious wise men. They are fools. They are morons, in the Greek. They are ridiculous.
In fact, it doesn't stop there. Verse 23, "They exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man, birds and four-footed animals and snakes and bugs." They make gods out of other things. That's where they end up, worshiping bugs, worshiping men, worshiping whatever. That's where they go. Natural man, that's how he goes. Oh his reason says there must be a God, must be a creator, must be power, must be complex. But because they're so wicked, because they're so depraved, and I'll say more about that next week, they suppress that truth because of the love of sin they depress that truth. They can't help but suppress it, they don't have any path to God, they can't get out of their deadness. They're dead in trespasses and sins. They're not alive to God. They're not alive to reality. In that deadness the truth is suppressed. Righteousness is suppressed. And in its place comes the fabrication of false religious systems and empty stupid philosophies.
And the end of all of that, what's the end of all that? What's the end of human philosophy and human religion? You say the grace of God. No...no. Verse 18, what does it say, "For...what?...the wrath of God." That's the whole point here. What these verses are telling us is that natural man with his natural theology unaided by special revelation winds up inexcusably under divine judgment. It's the wrath of God. It's not the grace of God. You can't go over to some tribe that's worshiping an alligator or something and say..."Oh, I'm on holy ground, God was here before I arrived." God was not there. God is not there. That is not truth. That is not reality. That is a refusal to honor the true and living God, the incorruptible God and in His place to stick something else, to fabricate something else, some empty philosophy, some foolish religion or some idol. So that's where natural man goes.
Romans 1 is the diagnosis of natural man. He becomes religious but his religion is a descent, not an ascent. It is not an ascent to God, it is a descent from the first recognition of God as creator of the universe down to a false god, being created by their own imagination in the suppression of the truth and the love of their own wickedness. And what happens is, they don't end up with the grace of God, they don't end up quote/unquote in the body of Christ, by any stretch of the imagination, they end up under the wrath of God. The wrath of Almighty God is judgment...judgment.
One other passage I want to show you. First Corinthians 1 because it's partners with this one and just a brief look at this one. First Corinthians 1, what we saw in Romans 1 is when man attains to his highest level of religious pride, he is a moron, he is a fool under wrath. It doesn't matter whether his religion is unsophisticated animism or very sophisticated western kind of religion or eastern kind of religion, he ends up in the same place. He's a fool who thinks he's wise.
But let's go beyond that, 1 Corinthians 1:18, "For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing," what? You see, these fools think that what we preach is foolish. They think that the cross is foolish. "But to us who are being saved, it's the power of God." And here comes another judgment and this is a verse taken from Isaiah chapter 29 and verse 14, "For it is written, 'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise and the cleverness of the clever I will set aside.'" Both of those destroy and set aside speak of sort of a final judgment, execution. God says, "Go ahead, line up the wisest of the wise, line up the cleverest of the clever and I'll cut them down."
Again, what happens to people who achieve religious wisdom, who achieve a high level of rational understanding of quote/unquote God and things spiritual, what happens is God's going to cut them down. It's the same thing as the wrath of Romans 1:18, here it's destruction and setting aside, making into nothing. And then verse 20 says, "Where is the wise man going to be?" This is almost sarcasm. "Then where is the scribe going to be, the one who spends his whole life fastidiously writing out religious things, where is the debater of this age, the person who can stand up and debate his philosophy and his theology?" "Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world."
Take the wisest of the wise, take the wisdom of the world, take the elite religious leaders, take the people at the top echelons of their religion, whether you're talking about the Pope or whether you're talking about the leader of Hinduism or the Muslim world or whether you're talking about the apostles in the Mormon church, or whatever you're talking about, take them all, all of those who have reached the epitome of man's devised schemes of religion, the wise, the scribes, the great writers and theologians, the debaters, the people who can argue their point and win the day, all those people, all of them God is going to make fools. They're not going to get grace.
Do you get the point? They're going to get cut down. And the reason is in verse 21, this is the key, "For since...in the wisdom of God, by God's wisdom...the world through its wisdom did not come to know God," mark that down, underline that. You can't get there from here. The world at its best, at its highest point of religious achievement and intellectual achievement, the world at its wisest level can't come to know God. That's what it says. Can't do it.
And then the end of verse 21, "God was pleased through the foolishness of the message preached." What message? The gospel. "To save those who believe." The message goes back to the message of the cross in verse 18. The only way you're going to get saved is by believing the message of the cross. That's the only way. It was God's plan that the world through its wisdom couldn't come to know Him...I'll say it again...you can't get to God from here by your own wisdom, rationality, religiosity, philosophy. But God was pleased through the foolishness of the message, the message of the cross, Christ, His death, His resurrection, to save those who...what?...who believe. It's not "believe in anything," but believe that. And the gospel of the cross is not a product of human reason, it's a revelation...it's a revelation.
Where do you go for the revelation of the cross? Right here, isn't this what explains it? Oh, Satan loves to come into the garden today and pull people over and say, "You don't really...you don't really think you should believe what special revelation from God says, trust your own reason...trust your own reason." That's what these theologians are doing. They're just following Satan. Only the message of the cross can save, anything else is moria, moronic.
Jeremiah 8:9 says, "The wise men are put to shame. They are dismayed and caught. Behold, they have rejected the Word of the Lord." And what kind of wisdom do they have? You reject the revealed Word of God, you reject special revelation, you reject the Word of the Lord, and what kind of wisdom have you got?
Well, James answers the question. James 3:15, "The wisdom that doesn't come down from above is demonic." Pretty straight, isn't it? It's not just wrong, it's not just foolish, it's demonic. Listen, if it doesn't come down from above, it comes up from below. And that's why Paul down in chapter 2 verse 2...well, verse 1, "When I came to you, brethren, I didn't come with superiority of speech or wisdom, I didn't come with human ideas, reason." Verse 2, "I determined to know nothing among you except...what?...Christ." He said that's all I wanted to say. Why? "Because that's the only message that does...what?...that saves." That's the only message to preach because that's the only way of salvation. When I brought to you the testimony of God, when I unfolded for you the mystery of God, what had been hidden and is now revealed, when I brought to you the Word of God, it was all about Jesus and Him crucified because it's only by believing that that God is well pleased to save.
So now where are the wise men? Nowhere. Where are the scribes? Absolutely nowhere. I'm reading a book called Mormon America, probably half way through a four or five-hundred page book. Boy, that's a...that's a complex operation, billions of dollars. People coming and going in this complexity of things. Fools...top to bottom...oh, they've reached all kinds of heights, you know, Ezra Taft Benson, people like that, other senators that we're familiar with today, people in power positions, been in presidential cabinets, they have complex systems of origination in their religion as well as corporately. It's a huge big house of cards that God one day is going to blow down. It doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean anything, absolutely nothing. It's just...it's going to be destroyed. They're going to feel nothing but the wrath.
You can't get to God through your own system. If you reject Jesus Christ, you can't get there. And you're never going to get there until you hear the message. That's why we've been doing this for all these years. That's why for 2,000 years people have been going to the ends of the earth with a message of Christ because this is what we know the Bible teaches. Natural man left to himself ends up under the wrath of God, ends up as 1 Corinthians says, under destruction who is nothing but a fool. And take the wisest of the wise, he says in verse 19, and take the cleverest of the clever, and I'll wipe them all out. It doesn't get you there.
So no person by natural reason, no person by religious intuition can come to know the truth of God. The only way you'll ever know the saving truth of God is by special revelation and that's the Bible and the gospel of Jesus Christ. Anybody who says people are saved by Hinduism, or by any other religion, anybody who says people are in the body of Christ and are Christians and in the Kingdom and going to heaven who do not believe in Jesus Christ is not telling you the truth. That's not what the Bible says.
So, I'll finish this next week.
Lord, we are again made aware sadly of what must break Your heart because it breaks ours, how much more profoundly do You feel the pain of dishonor. But, Lord, we just want to get the record straight and make sure that we have been faithful to discharge our responsibility and You told us to go into the world and preach the gospel to every creature, so we want to make sure we understand the gospel and that we keep going and we don't let these lies and these deceptions and these heresies attack Your glorious work. Protect Your church, protect Your people and keep faithful men who preach the truth in the places of influence and may Your people hear and understand the truth. Give them discernment so they can sort it out. Give them a love for Your Word so they can have the criteria by which to be discerning. And help us, Lord, to be faithful to share the gospel with everybody that comes across our path knowing there is no other way to heaven except through faith in the message of Jesus Christ and His cross. And may we preach the cross like Paul did, determine to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. And we ask these things in His name. Amen.
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jstan
climber
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Gobee:
Could you shorten this stuff up a bit.
Thanks,
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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del cross!
OK! Thanks for pointing that out! I'll look into it.
monolith! Thanks also!!
It is great that we have this technology, I spend alot of time on Google Earth. Places I can only dream of going.
EDIT: At the bottom of the wiki page there are 25-30 references and none directly lead to a comphrensive listing, or suggest any.
The point being Wiki labeled it as such ao was very nebulis in presenting it.
Frankly I don't give a dang one way or another. As we all know and I alluded to away back there 7-8 pages, we need to be prepared for a major quake eg. canned food, water, water purifier etc. and have your pack/haulbag ready!
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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I knew the tectonic pressure was building and Gobee was about to unload a huge one.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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cintune-"You WANT the world to come to some fantastic end. And so did your pal Jesus."
I can tell you don't read the bible-1!
And you can't read my mind-2
Jesus never said the world was going to come to an end. He did say that if He didn't return that a world war between the nations would bring the world to an end. Thank God He intervenes.
And it(Bible)describes nuclear war-fare to a T. Man brings it upon himself. Look at all the nuclear arsenal. The Bible talks about the very country's that ill be involved, the very one's that are out there now.
That is realy sad that you would attempt to lay such a twisted concept on me and Jesus Christ. He came and suffered for all your sins, and I come(and Gobee) to warn you of the consequences of your ways. I care for you cintune...some day you will understand.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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It's not a twisted concept, it's a well-established theological tenet. Jesus's whole "trip" according to a lot of so-called experts (though not all of them, of course) was the fulfillment of the apocalyptic prophesies that had worked their way into the Judaic tradition for a variety of reasons. The end of times, with the earthquakes and the famines and the other scary stuff that the average Joe could easily relate to were all part and parcel of instilling the "fear of god" into people who otherwise wouldn't have much reason to buy into the fantasy. And then later on, Revelations came as the icing on the doomsday cake. And then, waaaay later on, Hal Lindsey came along and reworked it all into political-technological terms that pulled in a whole new audience of world-weary souls. Meanwhile, every prediction of the onrushing imminent finale has been wrong so far.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2010 - 10:08pm PT
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Yes Tripl7, as you say, thank god he intervenes.
Too bad he is selective about intervening and flat chooses to ignore
the prayers and pleading for him to stop torture and suffering.
Oh yeah, that is when they say he does NOT intervene.
Convenient is it not, how he supposedly does, and does not, "intervene"
God does NOT intervene in anything, and neither does the tooth fairy,
or the easter bunny, or any other story told to entertain children.
Some of the children grow up still believing these fairy tales,
and that includes believing in the guy in the sky story.
Some other children knew it was all BS, and never had a problem NOT
continuing to believe fairy tales when they grew up.
Time for Gobbee to show up and tell us the earth is six thousand years old.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2010 - 10:41pm PT
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Wes- "Show me, where it predicts it to a T"
"That their flesh will consume away while they stand on their feet. Their eyes shall be consumed in their sockets, and their tongue shall be consumed in the mouth." Zechariah 14:12.
EDIT: The H-bomb can produce heat 150 million degrees Fahrenheit in a millisecond, and that is why the flesh would melt off your body before the body hit the ground!
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WBraun
climber
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Instead of always trying to discredit Trip, the Bible and God you guys should find absolute proof that your materialistic science can save you from your own folly.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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you guys should find absolute proof that your materialistic science can save you...
I've got the absolute proof, Brawny. I've had it for decades. It's in my corrective lenses. It's in my climbing rope. It's in my scuba equipment. That's three egs. That's enough. They save me. Either from a life of misery or a from a life of lesser excitement. Hurray for materialistic science and engineering.
What I also acquired decades ago was respect. Respect for materialistic science. Respect for engineering products. Respect for the relationship between structure and function. Respect for the connection between physics and life and living things.
Adapt. Upgrade your brain software.
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Bad Climber
climber
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Norton--you da best. That Dino-Jesus poster is da bomb.
BAdddd
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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re: cross-section of god concepts.
A combination of (a) reasonableness and (b) modern scientific understanding DOES rule out many a god concept. Among these, (1) Aphrodite, (2) Jehovah / Jesus, (3) Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Ed Hartouni, you are conservative. Run it out a little more. An adaptive let's-go-for-it engineering model type mind to complement your conservative we-got-have-100%-proof-before-we-can-proceed physics mind is useful, productive.
Religious institutions won't admit it but America's as theologically ignorant as it is scientifically ignorant.
But times are changing. Brick by brick.
Ghandi- Be the change you seek in the world.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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worthy of a repost.
dino
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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It's time we had one: a belief discipline that's as much a sign and celebration of 21st century modernity as religious institution is a sign and celebration of early times.
Where are the innovators, the modelers? Let's get around to it and build one.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Dr. F. You cited the bible. That means the "God" you're referring to is God Jehovah. There are a variety of god concepts. If the aim is to advance the subject, it's helpful to distinguish the variety of god concepts: e.g., the ancient Mesopotamian Gods from a more abstract God that many a physicist for instance likes to refer to, mostly metaphorically.
Who "believes in" the Grim Reaper? Who "believes in" Diacrates? (aka einsteinian god) Who "believes in" Father Time? I'm all for the personalization (personification) of higher powers, impersonal higher powers. It's fun. As long as it's clear it's metaphor.
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WBraun
climber
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There is only one God but he can appear in any form.
Dr F., since you don't have any clue nor who or what God is then all your statements are null and void and have no merit whatsoever.
The Supreme lord is "All Attractive" thus even the atheist class is attracted, but in a negative way.
Thus since God is transcendental to all material contamination even the atheist benefits by the negitive attraction towards the Supreme Lord.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Told ya, Dr. F. You need to specify which God type (Jehovah or other) to avoid needless argument, say with Brawny. Or really any time you're in mixed company, like here on the Taco.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Dr. F.- How to feel about the Grim Reaper? Mother Nature? As concepts. As metaphors. As personalizations? Are they "delusional."
I ask because... Human culture is always going to have the "god concept" or the "god personalization" or the "god metaphor." Human culture and language and story telling what they are.
Distinguishing between God as above and God Jehovah (the God of Moses) in a for-real sense gives traction in talking about beliefs, etc.
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WBraun
climber
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Dr F
You should never blindly believe anyone.
Your projections are full of illogical fallacies and even you know that.
The science of the soul and it's relationship to God exists. One only needs to take to this science to come to the experience of Gods existence.
Cheaters like you Dr F will surely fail due to your non perseverance, envious nature, and other coverings on your soul.
You are not scientist, but a crazy ranter who screams into the wind and produces nothing .....
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 5, 2010 - 01:37pm PT
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From Base104:
I don't believe in the theory of the electron. Nobody has ever seen
one, and it is only those elite "Scientists" who go around poisoning
my child's mind.
And Chemistry for that matter. It is all hocus pocus. They just mix
stuff together. I have washed my hands in acetone a bunch and I never
had cancer. Cancer is a liberal invention.
Geologists? They are all atheists. If they would just look, evidence
for the great flood is everywhere. Fossils can be explained.
The earth was made for us to use. About the time we have used up the
resources and made enough souls for Jesus, he will come back and leave
the heathens for the antichrist.
Astronomers are liars. The Universe isn't 13 billion years old. God
just turned the lights all on at the same time.
Physics is the worst of all. They use all of this demonic symbology
and are the root of all of the sciences, which are the work of the
devil.
Home school. And guns are good, too. Gotta keep the liberals away when
they take over the country.
Just visit this place for the answers: http://creationmuseum.org/
And to refute all of the garbage, here is a link that will tell you
the TRUTH as god intended:
http://www.creationism.org/
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Fructose-
I've been thinking about your proposal to always specify which god a person is referring to. Even though everyone who believes in God agrees in principle that there is only One, you are quite correct in noting that the old Testament Yahweh and the New Testament Abba of Jesus, seem like entirely different gods.
Another way of dealing with the problem that I personally prefer, is the solution of the Buddhists who fought against the anthropomorphizing trends of Hinduism by refusing to give a specific name to God at all. Hence we are left with the Unborn, Undying, Uncreated, Unchanging, with Emptiness and Nothingness meaning nothing your petty mind and mine can conceive of, my favorite, Original Mind, and also No Mind, One Mind, the Cosmic Buddha, the Great Radiant Being of Bliss, and Nirvana.
Some modern Christian theologians have also followed this trend, though I doubt they even knew of Buddhism, and referred to God as The Source or The Ground of Being. Meanwhile any new religion like naturalism would need a suitably abstract and science based name to be credible
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Gobee-
I actually read through your last long posting and was dismayed as it seems to contradict what you said before in regard to the children in China and also the words of Jesus himself.
I believe you need to think long and hard about following someone who puts himself and his interpretstions above the Pope, Mother Theresa, Billy Graham, and Robert Shuller, the church fathers who established the canonical Bible, and numerous missionaries around the world. Likewise think long and hard about rejecting a concept like "God's wider mercy" in favor of the narrow interpretation of a small handful of people and their exclusive self righteousness.
You are a good hearted person so why follow such a mean spirited interpretation of the "Good News"? Why not focus on Jesus' saying "In my Father's house are many mansions", "Those who are not against us are for us", and the words of Jesus himself when he says that it is NOT faith that can move mountains or speaking in tongues or preaching that is the will of his Father in heaven but those who minister to the least of men - the hungry,the thirsty, the sick, the orphans and widows, those in prison. You could also choose to focus on the fact that Jesus drank water from a woman with seven "husbands" and upheld the Good Samaritan over the Pharisees who believed the right teachings and meticulously followed the law but had no charity.
Who do you really put your faith in Gobee - Jesus and the founders of Christianity and it leading representatives today, or some small minded and small hearted person who is trying to make the universal teaching of Jesus into an exclusive private legalistic club?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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"God is a verb."
R. Buckminster Fuller
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roadman
climber
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Dr F
You should never blindly believe anyone.
Your projections are full of illogical fallacies and even you know that.
The science of the soul and it's relationship to God exists. One only needs to take to this science to come to the experience of Gods existence.
Cheaters like you Dr F will surely fail due to your non perseverance, envious nature, and other coverings on your soul.
You are not scientist, but a crazy ranter who screams into the wind and produces nothing .....
brawny this is almost as funny as you going around calling everyone retards..... Dude admit it...you got an iPad....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Thought I'd share a story from the journey I'm on in India. This stuff happens every day but here's one....
I’m in India staying above Rishikesh in the Himalayan Foothills. The Kumbha Mela, a vast religious gathering, is happening an hour away in Haridwar. My friend from Holland, Danny, and I headed down to Haridwar today to visit the town and see something of the Mela.
In the taxi I was thinking of where to take my friend. I had heard there was an old yogi who had taken a vow of silence and who had an extended experience of the divine who lived near where we were going. I thought it would be good if we could figure out where this Mouni Baba was.
The taxi dropped us off by the Ganges. After walking along the river to the famous main bathing steps, we meditated by the river and took a walk through the bazaar. We were crossing the bridge to the other side of the river and I saw an old Yogi who looked like Santa Claus and was wearing all burlap clothing. He exuded a vitality and youthfulness that was ageless. I offered him a bit of money as it is a duty and honor to support real holy men. He pointed to his pocket, as some sincere Yogis try not to touch money lest it corrupt their sincerity. He gave us a big smile and stroked our faces with love, a very unusual gesture in India. He then was walking ahead of us and yet, after a bit paused as if something just occurred to him. He turned around, reached in his pocket and pulled out his identification. It said his name was Mouni Baba!
Now Mouni Baba means a Holy Man who remains silent and there might actually be a couple Mouni Babas in town. But on the other hand, there are many hundreds of Babas in town and I had only learned the name of one on this trip, Mouni Baba! I was just happy to meet a Soul so bright, living in simple burlap clothing, giving Love, and having faith that God would provide for him. It seemed an auspicious that we were also blessed and on our path.
Hoping you receive the blessing of intending a path of Love and then enjoying the magic of that journey.
Peace and Love
Karl Baba
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WBraun
climber
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Yeah the The Kumbha Mela is awesome.
Not like these dry mental speculators in this thread and their stupid rants against God holding onto their dry science books.
The The Kumbha Mela is life ......
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"Not like these dry mental speculators in this thread and their stupid rants against God holding onto their dry science books."
Love for All means All. The mental speculators on this thread are fine people with good intentions. We all have our blind spots and nobody wants to be fooled or let down.
Forgiveness, inside or outside religon, brings Light and Freedom
Om
Baba
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MH2
climber
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Many thanks, Karl, for returning a happier tone to the talk, here. What makes keeping up with it fun is seeing what people are up to, what they have to say, and guessing what they are thinking and care about. It is fine to care about definitions and wording, but I think that when a person's idea is clear they can express it without too much attention to precision. If part of what they say is unclear we then can ask a question.
In the very modest context of this discussion, if there is a misunderstanding or we get a decimal point wrong, it isn't like a bridge somewhere is going to fall down.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Base 104-
One of the many nice things about India is how many cyber cafes they have there.
Meanwhile, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there currently two theories of how life began? One is based on the idea that lightning struck the right chemicals and started the process (reproduced in our labs with electricity, ammonia etc.) and the other, that it arrived on meteors from outer space since they too are observed to contain the four amino acids present in DNA?
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Gobee
Social climber
Grace By Faith
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(Note; When you click on the link http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive, the GTY Radio Archive page will come up and for each program, like the one you read- Exclusiveness of the Gospel, The Part 1- you have the option of listen, read, or download the message!)
Jan-
Thank you, I think your the first person to read and make a comment on what I posted!
"I actually read through your last long posting and was dismayed as it seems to contradict what you said before in regard to the children in China and also the words of Jesus himself."
Faith in Jesus is God's offer of love and forgiveness when we don't deserve it, I am nothing all to Him I owe, but we have to come to him on are own, no one can do it for us! It's only through Him...
Romans 2:6-11, He will render to each one according to his works 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.
Romans 2:12-16, For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
And your right without Love;
The Way of Love
1 Corinthians 13, If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Proverbs 6:23, For the commandment is a lamp and the teaching a light,
and the reproofs of discipline are the way of life
Acts 10:34-36, So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)http://bible.cc/acts/10-34.htm
Also of note, Philip and Bartholomew were seekers of God's truth and of the Messiah, knowing He could not just be anyone, whom they found!
How Precious Is Your Steadfast Love
To the choirmaster. Of David, the servant of the Lord.
Psalm 36, Transgression speaks to the wicked
deep in his heart;
there is no fear of God
before his eyes.
2 For he flatters himself in his own eyes
that his iniquity cannot be found out and hated.
3 The words of his mouth are trouble and deceit;
he has ceased to act wisely and do good.
4 He plots trouble while on his bed;
he sets himself in a way that is not good;
he does not reject evil.
5 Your steadfast love, O Lord, extends to the heavens,
your faithfulness to the clouds.
6 Your righteousness is like the mountains of God;
your judgments are like the great deep;
man and beast you save, O Lord.
7 How precious is your steadfast love, O God!
The children of mankind take refuge in the shadow of your wings.
8 They feast on the abundance of your house,
and you give them drink from the river of your delights.
9 For with you is the fountain of life;
in your light do we see light.
10 Oh, continue your steadfast love to those who know you,
and your righteousness to the upright of heart!
11 Let not the foot of arrogance come upon me,
nor the hand of the wicked drive me away.
12 There the evildoers lie fallen;
they are thrust down, unable to rise.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 6, 2010 - 10:55am PT
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Stick the Bible where the sun doesn't shine, GOBEE.
Because YOU are NOT honest enough to ADMIT that the bible is NOT the
"word of god", but was WRITTEN BY HUMANS
What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?
4) Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God.
5) Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.
It is clear that God doesn't give a damn about the rape victim. He is only concerned about the violation of another mans "property".
6) David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness" (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)
Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'
Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.]
This has got to be one of the sickest quotes of the Bible. God himself brings the completely innocent rape victims to the rapist. What kind of pathetic loser would do something so evil? And then he kills a child! This is sick, really sick!
7) Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)
"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
Once again God approves of forcible rape.
8) Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30 NAB)
They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)
Want proof? Tell me GOD told US to DO THIS.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Norton- What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?
QT What kind of God...?
ANS God Jehovah. AKA God of Moses. AKA God of Jesus.
QT What kind of God? Which God? ANS God Jehovah. The God of the Abrahamic Bibles.
The Abrahamic bibles: Torah. Holy Bible. Koran.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jan- the four amino acids present in DNA
I hope this was just a typo...
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Gobee
Social climber
Grace By Faith
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The Defiling of Dinah
Genesis 34, Now Dinah the daughter of Leah, whom she had borne to Jacob, went out to see the women of the land. 2 And when Shechem the son of Hamor the Hivite, the prince of the land, saw her, he seized her and lay with her and humiliated her. 3 And his soul was drawn to Dinah the daughter of Jacob. He loved the young woman and spoke tenderly to her. 4 So Shechem spoke to his father Hamor, saying, “Get me this girl for my wife.”
5 Now Jacob heard that he had defiled his daughter Dinah. But his sons were with his livestock in the field, so Jacob held his peace until they came. 6 And Hamor the father of Shechem went out to Jacob to speak with him. 7 The sons of Jacob had come in from the field as soon as they heard of it, and the men were indignant and very angry, because he had done an outrageous thing in Israel by lying with Jacob's daughter, for such a thing must not be done.
8 But Hamor spoke with them, saying, “The soul of my son Shechem longs for your daughter. Please give her to him to be his wife. 9 Make marriages with us. Give your daughters to us, and take our daughters for yourselves. 10 You shall dwell with us, and the land shall be open to you. Dwell and trade in it, and get property in it.” 11 Shechem also said to her father and to her brothers, “Let me find favor in your eyes, and whatever you say to me I will give. 12 Ask me for as great a bride price and gift as you will, and I will give whatever you say to me. Only give me the young woman to be my wife.”
13 The sons of Jacob answered Shechem and his father Hamor deceitfully, because he had defiled their sister Dinah. 14 They said to them, “We cannot do this thing, to give our sister to one who is uncircumcised, for that would be a disgrace to us. 15 Only on this condition will we agree with you—that you will become as we are by every male among you being circumcised. 16 Then we will give our daughters to you, and we will take your daughters to ourselves, and we will dwell with you and become one people. 17 But if you will not listen to us and be circumcised, then we will take our daughter, and we will be gone.”
18 Their words pleased Hamor and Hamor's son Shechem. 19 And the young man did not delay to do the thing, because he delighted in Jacob's daughter. Now he was the most honored of all his father's house. 20 So Hamor and his son Shechem came to the gate of their city and spoke to the men of their city, saying, 21 “These men are at peace with us; let them dwell in the land and trade in it, for behold, the land is large enough for them. Let us take their daughters as wives, and let us give them our daughters. 22 Only on this condition will the men agree to dwell with us to become one people—when every male among us is circumcised as they are circumcised. 23 Will not their livestock, their property and all their beasts be ours? Only let us agree with them, and they will dwell with us.” 24 And all who went out of the gate of his city listened to Hamor and his son Shechem, and every male was circumcised, all who went out of the gate of his city.
25 On the third day, when they were sore, two of the sons of Jacob, Simeon and Levi, Dinah's brothers, took their swords and came against the city while it felt secure and killed all the males. 26 They killed Hamor and his son Shechem with the sword and took Dinah out of Shechem's house and went away. 27 The sons of Jacob came upon the slain and plundered the city, because they had defiled their sister. 28 They took their flocks and their herds, their donkeys, and whatever was in the city and in the field. 29 All their wealth, all their little ones and their wives, all that was in the houses, they captured and plundered.
30 Then Jacob said to Simeon and Levi, “You have brought trouble on me by making me stink to the inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites and the Perizzites. My numbers are few, and if they gather themselves against me and attack me, I shall be destroyed, both I and my household.” 31 But they said, “Should he treat our sister like a prostitute?”
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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MH2- It is fine to care about definitions and wording, but I think that when a person's idea is clear they can express it without too much attention to precision. If part of what they say is unclear we then can ask a question... In the very modest context of this discussion, if there is a misunderstanding or we get a decimal point wrong, it isn't like a bridge somewhere is going to fall down.
MH2- I've enjoyed many a last post of yours. But I'm disappointed you feel the way you do as expressed in your last post. So be it.
"it isn't like a bridge somewhere is going to fall down"
Sure, this thread here at the Taco is pretty irrelevant. But I thought the subject in broader perspective was about belief, God, theology, comparative religions, science and all that these contain. Subjects important to me. Subjects that require attn to greater detail in mixed company. -Which obviously the Taco and this thread are.
I don't know about you (much) but the news on current affairs these days indicates to me that we're spending trillions of dollars over culture wars much of which bases itself on conflicting theologies. It would be nice to able to talk about these with a common vocabulary, some precision, and without ambiguity of terms running wild.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 6, 2010 - 11:39am PT
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 6, 2010 - 11:40am PT
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Gobee
Social climber
Grace By Faith
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Love can not be stolen, only given!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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So why are the thinkers on this thread giving this "grace by faith" poster so much attention? Geez. Shift gears. I'd like to continue to hang out on this thread but not if it's going to be so uni-dimensional, shallow, and tit for tat. Tit for tat with a guy who has the same theology (concepts about forces that rule our lives) that those living in the pre-scientific 1st century had.
Raise the level of discourse.
Food for thought: When traditional belief discipline practice (in the form of ol'time religions with their reliance on ancient theologies) gives way to modernity, what if anything might replace it? Do we even need a replacement? Of any kind?
Food for thought: Can we continue to make improvements to our "practice" of living (which I think is what we want, most of us) (a) without bringing some standards to bear on it; (b) without a new kind of leadership (new kind of institutional leadership) other than political leadership / governmental leadership?
Food for thought: Is governo-political leadership sufficient? (My opinion: Not!)
I repeat:
Is this thread capable of having a discourse that gets past responding tit-for-tat to an oldbook fundamentalist? We shall see.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 6, 2010 - 11:54am PT
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SOME parents believe the ONLY way to CONTROL their children is to tell
them fairy tales that have "punishments" for bad behavior.
And that is what most religion is: Telling little children to live by
that religion's "rules" or "god" will punish your little asses.
A LOT of those children grown up STILL believing that crap.
SOME children learned very early the guy in the sky was the same nonsense
as Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy,and the Easter Bunny.
Those children grew up to be rational ADULTS. The others did not.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Gobee!
I also, like Jan, read all the way through your "long post" on the "Exclusiveness of the Gospels, Part I" and enjoyed it immensely. I am in full agreement with Dr. MacArthur's beliefs in the New Testament Gospels message. And Jesus teaching that the "gate is narrow and there are few that find it."
They don't find it because they think the gate is large "wide" and that many way's lead to God. But Jesus clearly said "The only way to the Father is through Me!"
To know about Jesus Christ, and to say that you don't need His forgiveness for your sins, that this world is not your fault, you didn't ask to come here etc. Or your good enough to get into heaven without Jesus...is to reject Jesus Christ as Lord.
Remember, Jesus said:
"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God!"
"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will confess him before My Father who is in heaven. But who ever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven." Matthew 10:32-33.
Jan- "rejecting a concept of 'God's wider mercy' in favor of the narrow interpretation of a handful of people."
A handful of people including Jesus Christ?
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it." Mathew 7:13-14.
Jan, I would read again the Gospel of John and "think long and hard" in regards to what Jesus Himself says.
Thanks again Gobee for that great post. I am looking forward to Part II.
Trip~
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roadman
climber
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God is just a long standing joke set up by some guys who wanted to pull the best prank of all time!!!
For chirst sake GOD is DOG spelled backwards!!!
It was a joke people, and you've all be drooling over those papers they wrote back in the day as a comedy skit to entertain their friends and fear their kids into doing what they said....
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 6, 2010 - 01:07pm PT
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I think I am going to puke.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 6, 2010 - 01:09pm PT
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Gobee
Social climber
Grace By Faith
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"GOD is DOG spelled backwards!!!"
No matter how you spell it still man's best friend!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 6, 2010 - 01:12pm PT
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There are five primary fear sources that explain the behavior of Creationists. They are:
1) Fear of evolution.
2) Fear and hatred toward gays/lesbians.
3) Fear of women.
4) Fear of death.
5) Fear of losing their all powerful father who will protect them from their fears.
See, I can dribble the same nonsense as Goby can!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Gobee and Triple7-
I am not going to argue religion with you. If there's one thing I know as a professional teacher, it's that students only learn if they want to and clearly you are completely vested in a particular interpretation that you learned a long time ago. This is a free country still, and you can believe anything that you want.
However, since the Bible repeatedly states that man's lack of humility is one of his greatest faults, I think you really need to examine how it is you are so intelligent that you know more than the best minds and hearts of a 2,000 year old tradition? Are you really more knowledgeable and pious and do you really live out your religion with more sincerity than your contemporaries Mac Arthur attacks - the Pope, Mother Theresa, Billy Graham, and Robert Shuller? Or are you just a new kind of Pharisee? Is your motivation discovering truth or feeling exclusive and self righteous? Sin and idolatry like scriptural interpretation, can take place at many levels.
There are also multiple levels of meaning to everything that Jesus said. If you are content with choosing only those sayings that can be interpreted in a narrow way and then maintaining that is the only way (assuming he even said some of those things), that is your right. But do not think for a minute that is the only interpretation or that a handful of words is more important than a sense of the full teaching.
There are many levels of deeper meaning to the teachings of Jesus that you obviously know nothing about and are not interested in. If you are content with staying at that level fine, just don't try to insist that the rest of us get stuck there too.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 6, 2010 - 10:02pm PT
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 6, 2010 - 10:10pm PT
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Fructose-
Concerning a naturalistic religion.
When I first started working on my chakras, I discovered the program 911 about humans going to heroic efforts and even risking their lives for strangers. I also discovered that an hour of that program was more effective than any of the traditional methods for opening the heart center.
It seems to me that a large part of a naturalistic religion would need to focus on the good deeds of other humans as that program did in order to inspire people?
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MH2
climber
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from High Fructose Corn Spirit:
Sure, this thread here at the Taco is pretty irrelevant. But I thought the subject in broader perspective was about belief, God, theology, comparative religions, science and all that these contain. Subjects important to me. Subjects that require attn to greater detail in mixed company. -Which obviously the Taco and this thread are.
I don't know about you (much) but the news on current affairs these days indicates to me that we're spending trillions of dollars over culture wars much of which bases itself on conflicting theologies. It would be nice to able to talk about these with a common vocabulary, some precision, and without ambiguity of terms running wild.
Not irrelevant, just modest in results and consequences. I agree that trying to be clear and precise in language is important, but am saying that it is less important than having a good idea to begin with. In my experience people who think clearly speak clearly, too. Words are always ambiguous and we often need more than one way to say what we mean. However, I get the heebie-jeebies when a discussion turns into a discussion about how to have the discussion.
Here's an idea for an example.
Let's say you believe that God is real. We won't ask what God. We'd just like to ask how you would compare your knowledge of God to other things that the rest of us know, like the gravitational constant, the speed of light, the charge of an electron. The so-called physical constants aren't that well known, in the sense that we can only measure them to a few significant figures. No theory we have gives exact values although for the universe to work values a lot more precise than we can measure are probably necessary. So we aren't setting a terribly high bar for your God. In fact, if your God could give us the gravitational constant to a few more places it would be helpful and possibly useful in earthquake prediction since it might allow better mapping of subsurface density variations.
If that seems too difficult, perhaps just show us an effect caused by your God and let us make the measurement.
Now, you might only have an emotional sense about the existence and/or nature of God. If so, fine.
Nevertheless:
"If you can measure that of which you speak, and can express it by a number, you know something of your subject; but if you cannot measure it, your knowledge is meager and unsatisfactory."
Lord Kelvin
Not that I completely agree with that, either.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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"For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself."
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Gobee
Social climber
Grace By Faith
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All praise and honor to God the Father and glory to our Lord Jesus Christ the Son the eternal source of the spring of living water of everlasting life, Amen!
I'm a sinner in need of God's love, mercy, and forgiveness at the Cross of Christ as much as any one!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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And a mocha latte, hold the whipped cream, thanks.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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MH2- By and large, I agree with your last post.
trying to be clear and precise in language is important
We agree. That was the point I was trying to draw out earlier in the thread. Simple as that. Just as physicists find it useful to draw a distinction between electron, proton and neutron (atomic particles), animal lovers find it useful to draw a distinction between, say German Shepards, Catahoulas and Collies, people like me interested in (and learned in) a cross-section of belief disciplines find it useful to distinguish between different God concepts (e.g., Diacrates, Jehovah, Shiva).
Which atomic particle? Which dog type? Which God type?
Straightforward as that. Cheers.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Consider a couple of modern conceptual God types: (1) Diacrates and (2) Hypercrates. My point... knowing about them (in addition to ancient Mesopotamian Gods) can lead to a reduction in argument, misunderstanding, miscommunication-- at least amongst those who have taken some (graduate level) belief discipline courses and who share in this common vocabulary and common understanding of these conceptual God types.
Take Einstein, the popular example to reference: He did not believe in the personal God of the Abrahamic religions (that is, God Jehovah, God of Moses). But he alluded to God as metaphor (God Hypercrates), he had no problem personifying the great forces that rule over living things. (Just as most modern Americans don't have any problem personifying death (the Grim Reaper) or personifying time (Father Time). Also, he speculated about a Diacrates (by definition a theoretical Intelligent First Cause of Everything). He "speculated" about a possible Diacrates. -Clearly a far cry from Jehovah (the God of Moses) by way of the latter's deeds laid out in the Abrahamic bibles.
So, to the people trained in these theo concepts, the distinctions are clear and they don't argue over definitions.
My great grandmother didn't know the difference between the different atomic particles. Or for that matter, the different pieces on a chess board. These didn't matter to her.
So, it's up to everyone to decide what matters to them. But my own life is richer, I feel, because I distinguish between different atomic particles, different dog and cat types, different chess pieces, and different god types.
I said earlier in the thread (1) I'm confident a new kind of belief discipline philosophy and practice (in school courses, too) is right around the corner for many cultures of the world-- thanks to our internet-driven info age. I said (2) it will support all that is sensible in religions and reject all that is absurd (the supernaturalist doctrines). I said (3) it will provide life guidance, spiritual development, life support, that you'll be able to trust (i.e., have "faith" in). I stand by it. Can't wait.
-So I'm also confident these new conceptual God types (when people bother to learn about them, maybe our children's children) will end a great deal of the uneducated bickering over "God."
These subjects ain't easy. But what really worthwhile to get past is?
Hadrian- Brick by brick.
Gandhi- Be the change you seek in the world.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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But no matter how you qualify it, it still means "imaginary friend." Or foe, for that matter. An abstraction, a will o' the wish, an excuse for personal accountability, in descending order of integrity.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Exactly. I'm with you. But if one of the goals is to get past the ancient theism of 2,000 years ago, it helps.
Here it is from another angle: I'm for moving on. I'm for trying new stategies. For example, that the 20th century didn't get around to.
I can go to a football game and chant, "God sucks!" or "God is dead!" and hoot and have a good day with my friends. And I can also get together in another context with others and draw the nuances between Diacrates, Hypercrates, Mesopotamian Gods and Hindu Gods. That's also rewarding.
So, it's all good!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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I am a spiritual being having a human experience. My dog, Steve, is a spiritual being having a canine experience.
Thank God Hypercrates* I was born human in the 20th century, not human in the 13th century. (I don't think I would've lived long.)
You can be a king or a street sweeper, but everybody dances with the Grim Reaper.
Pesonifications. I love em!
*Not God Jehovah!
But enough of the academia. I'm done. Back to the babble and debauchery.
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Gobee
Social climber
Grace By Faith
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(Sermon verses from Sunday, Feb 7, 2010 from John MacArthur’s, “Jesus’ Power over Death”)
Mark 5:21-24, And when Jesus had crossed again in the boat to the other side, a great crowd gathered about him, and he was beside the sea. 22 Then came one of the rulers of the synagogue, Jairus by name, and seeing him, he fell at his feet 23 and implored him earnestly, saying, “My little daughter is at the point of death. Come and lay your hands on her, so that she may be made well and live.” 24 And he went with him....
Mark 5:35-43, While he was still speaking, there came from the ruler's house some who said, “Your daughter is dead. Why trouble the Teacher any further?” 36 But overhearing what they said, Jesus said to the ruler of the synagogue, “Do not fear, only believe.” 37 And he allowed no one to follow him except Peter and James and John the brother of James. 38 They came to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and Jesus saw a commotion, people weeping and wailing loudly. 39 And when he had entered, he said to them, “Why are you making a commotion and weeping? The child is not dead but sleeping.” 40 And they laughed at him. But he put them all outside and took the child's father and mother and those who were with him and went in where the child was. 41 Taking her by the hand he said to her, “Talitha cumi,” which means, “Little girl, I say to you, arise.” 42 And immediately the girl got up and began walking (for she was twelve years of age), and they were immediately overcome with amazement. 43 And he strictly charged them that no one should know this, and told them to give her something to eat.
John 5:21-24, For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. 22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 14:19, Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
Luke 7:22-23, And he answered them, “Go and tell John what you have seen and heard: the blind receive their sight, the lame walk, lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the poor have good news preached to them. 23 And blessed is the one who is not offended by me.”
The Coming of the Lord
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2010 - 04:34pm PT
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DIRECT! From a LOVING god, to YOU!
NOT written by humans 2000 years ago, but the WORD OF GOD
GOD: Coming to a Theater Near You.
Kill, Rape, Enslave: The Saga Continues
Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Natural Disasters are God's Wrath
The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night. (Nahum 1:2-8 NLT)
Pillage and Plunder
For the land of Israel lies empty and broken after your attacks, but the LORD will restore its honor and power again. Shields flash red in the sunlight! The attack begins! See their scarlet uniforms! Watch as their glittering chariots move into position, with a forest of spears waving above them. The chariots race recklessly along the streets and through the squares, swift as lightning, flickering like torches. The king shouts to his officers; they stumble in their haste, rushing to the walls to set up their defenses. But too late! The river gates are open! The enemy has entered! The palace is about to collapse! Nineveh's exile has been decreed, and all the servant girls mourn its capture. Listen to them moan like doves; watch them beat their breasts in sorrow. Nineveh is like a leaking water reservoir! The people are slipping away. "Stop, stop!" someone shouts, but the people just keep on running. Loot the silver! Plunder the gold! There seems no end to Nineveh's many treasures – its vast, uncounted wealth. Soon the city is an empty shambles, stripped of its wealth. Hearts melt in horror, and knees shake. The people stand aghast, their faces pale and trembling. (Nahum 2:2-10 NLT)
An Angry Jealous God
"I have wiped out many nations, devastating their fortress walls and towers. Their cities are now deserted; their streets are in silent ruin. There are no survivors to even tell what happened. I thought, 'Surely they will have reverence for me now! Surely they will listen to my warnings, so I won't need to strike again.' But no; however much I punish them, they continue their evil practices from dawn till dusk and dusk till dawn." So now the LORD says: "Be patient; the time is coming soon when I will stand up and accuse these evil nations. For it is my decision to gather together the kingdoms of the earth and pour out my fiercest anger and fury on them. All the earth will be devoured by the fire of my jealousy. "On that day I will purify the lips of all people, so that everyone will be able to worship the LORD together. My scattered people who live beyond the rivers of Ethiopia will come to present their offerings. (Zephaniah 3:6-10 NLT)
God Will Kill Ethiopia
"You Ethiopians will also be slaughtered by my sword," says the LORD. And the LORD will strike the lands of the north with his fist. He will destroy Assyria and make its great capital, Nineveh, a desolate wasteland, parched like a desert. The city that once was so proud will become a pasture for sheep and cattle. All sorts of wild animals will settle there. Owls of many kinds will live among the ruins of its palaces, hooting from the gaping windows. Rubble will block all the doorways, and the cedar paneling will lie open to the wind and weather. This is the fate of that boisterous city, once so secure. "In all the world there is no city as great as I," it boasted. But now, look how it has become an utter ruin, a place where animals live! Everyone passing that way will laugh in derision or shake a defiant fist. (Zephaniah 2:12-15 NLT)
God's Human Slaughter Fest
Stand in silence in the presence of the Sovereign LORD, for the awesome day of the LORD's judgment has come. The LORD has prepared his people for a great slaughter and has chosen their executioners. "On that day of judgment," says the LORD, "I will punish the leaders and princes of Judah and all those following pagan customs. Yes, I will punish those who participate in pagan worship ceremonies, and those who steal and kill to fill their masters' homes with loot. "On that day," says the LORD, "a cry of alarm will come from the Fish Gate and echo throughout the newer Mishneh section of the city. And a great crashing sound will come from the surrounding hills. Wail in sorrow, all you who live in the market area, for all who buy and sell there will die. "I will search with lanterns in Jerusalem's darkest corners to find and punish those who sit contented in their sins, indifferent to the LORD, thinking he will do nothing at all to them. They are the very ones whose property will be plundered by the enemy, whose homes will be ransacked. They will never have a chance to live in the new homes they have built. They will never drink wine from the vineyards they have planted. "That terrible day of the LORD is near. Swiftly it comes – a day when strong men will cry bitterly. It is a day when the LORD's anger will be poured out. It is a day of terrible distress and anguish, a day of ruin and desolation, a day of darkness and gloom, of clouds, blackness, trumpet calls, and battle cries. Down go the walled cities and strongest battlements! "Because you have sinned against the LORD, I will make you as helpless as a blind man searching for a path. Your blood will be poured out into the dust, and your bodies will lie there rotting on the ground." Your silver and gold will be of no use to you on that day of the LORD's anger. For the whole land will be devoured by the fire of his jealousy. He will make a terrifying end of all the people on earth. (Zephaniah 1:7:18 NLT)
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roadman
climber
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um...i was out skiing today and you know I'm pretty sure DOG was not out there... yep. pretty sure God was no where to be found.
I'll keep looking man. I did find some sick powder as a consolation.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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It's cool, Wes, it's just language. I'm not at all thinking of the ghost-like (ghostly) spirit. That's so 20th century. I'm referring to carnate spirit. In other words, flesh-based, flesh-driven spirit. In other words, still, biotic spirit.
I know. It's confusing at first. But like Largo said about big wall climbing, confusing at first but plain as water once you're used to it.
Adapt the terms. Then work through the language. With the oldbook fundamentalists. It's the only way. And in case your you're a Sam Harris fan, so am I. I agree with him that the moderates are running interference for the oldbook fundamentalists. I'm no moderate. I'm no appeaser. Hard-core.
I'm only compromising in language issues because I know terms like "spirit" won't go away.
"C'mon, climb, where's your spirit today?" Or... "Where's your spirit?! Damn you! Fight! Fight! Fight!" (10 points if you know what movie that last line came from.)
Spirituality requires a non-material aspect of being. Incarnate spirit requires it. Not carnate spirit. Two different forms of spirit, one old in concept, the other new. Incarnate spirituality (ghosty spirituality) is as bogus as astrology.
To be clear, my carnate spirit dies with my body. (BTW, I'll probably have some kind of Tibetan sky-burial, see another thread. You?)
All I ask, try it for a couple of months, see if you don't get traction with the supernaturalists in your discourses with them.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Wes wrote-
I've played with adapting the language. It made me feel hollow and dirty inside. It is alright when you are talking to kids I suppose. But when you are dealing with adults (even if they have the mental capacity of kids) I like to keep it clear, lest they make some irrational decisions that affect my life based on their misunderstanding.
For instance, people like 777 openly anticipate a great atomic war between Iran and Israel. Without it, their insane interpretation of bible prophecy will not be fulfilled. They vote... Bush et al pander to them... etc... The same happens on the other side. Self-fulfilling prophecies of death and destruction don't sit well with me. Nor do their beliefs that their delusions should dictate how others live their lives, who they choose to marry, which surgeries they can have, or what bullsh!t gets taught as legitimate science.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Yeah, all I would add to what you said: context is important (you gotta know your audience) and the fact that there is mixed company so to speak on this thread makes it 5.12+. But we're here! In mixed company!
Here. One last bit: regarding the oldbook faithfuls you cited. You don't see me responding to them! I pass through their posts knowing i've seen it or heard it a thousand times.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Wes- Ah, I just caught that next to last line. I'm not one of those who'd call it a bad habit. Just sayin.
What's going around OUR community as you probably know already is a growing awareness for the use of a variety of strategies. Throw em against the wall and see what sticks. And a lot is sticking, now more than ever. So I'm a believer (i.e., mental holder) of the use of a variety of strategies.
I'm pretty confident. By this century's end, the old leadership in "belief discipline" practice (with its reliance on supernaturalist doctrines and mesopotamian gods and ghosts (ghostly spirit), etc.) will be history.
But like you I'm also concerned that it IS a race against time. -Which is what drew me into this crazy-quilt field. (That is, besides the environmental issues, population explosion and biodiversity destruction.) If guys like you and me don't "live up to" our education (science education and general life education) and stand up to these oldbook fundamentalists, then who? So, kudos.
(By the way, have you seen the documentary, 11th Hour, just watched it, I thought it had some pretty good vignettes in it that relate to the race against time and how ignorance is a major obstacle in the path.)
"...will be history." Let me clarify: In America and Europe at least. I'm not at all hopeful about the Middle East. Have you seen The Hurt Locker? I think the Middle East is in the Hurt Locker for a long time to come. Pretty scary.
Thanks for the words.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Very interesting discussion guys and I too share your frustrations. After being out of the country so long, this thread has been a real education. I don't think the problem is belief however, but the cynical use of belief by a particular political faction in our country. We have always been a haven for strange cults and lived in peace with them for the most part, but they seldom tried to take over our education system or change the constitution before. Personally I don't think they will ever die out nor will ridiculing them bring about change. Religions based on martyrdom last forever.
Here are some other thoughts.
1) If you design a hyper rational belief system that focusses on defining terms, no one but a few intellectuals are going to be interested in that. You're talking philosophy rather than religion.
2) It seems to me that a modernized, responsible humanism would be more inspirational. The program I referred to you that didn't recognize was based on calls to 911 about life and death emergencies that humanitarian people got involved in to help their fellow humans. That does inspire people. Since Confucianism, a 2,500 year old humanistic philosophy doesn't travel well outside of East Asia, there's room for a western version of inspirational humanism.
3) The problem is fundamentalist Abrahamic religions - Christianity and Islam mainly, since there are very few uneducated Jews in America at this point in time. Eastern religions, modern Catholics who go to church and ignore papal teachings on things like birth control, mainstream Protestants and New Thought Churches are not the problem.
4) The average person still wants a place to have a wedding and funeral, so I think providing those services in a humanistic non sectarian way would interest a lot of people.I also think if you provided a day care service with the teaching of basic non sectarian humanistic values like honesty to children, you'd be swamped. You might even provoke a movement to introduce something like that into the schools.
5) Religion appeals to people because it makes them feel better about themselves and life and makes them better people. If a certain segment of our population looks forward to nuclear war and the end of the world, that's a good indication that our society has not been a hospitable place for them. They find refuge instead in being among the privileged few who are "saved". There's a lot to be said for the idea that religion died out in Europe when state sponsored social benefits were ushered in.
Perhaps the best thing non believers could do is build a political coalition to make our country a more secure and comfortable place for everyone. Given the seeming collapse of the health care bill based on one senate seat changing hands, I'd say there's a lot of work to be done there which would be more fruitful than having endless debates about the existence of God and what to call God. Just my opinion.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2010 - 09:59pm PT
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And what does Goby and 7's LOVING GOD say about SLAVERY?
Now Showing at at Theater Near YOU!
This is the WORD OF GOD.
The Bible was NOT written by humans, so ONLY GOD would say THIS!
The following passage describes the sickening practice of sex slavery. How can anyone think it is moral to sell your own daughter as a sex slave?
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
So these are the Bible family values! A man can buy as many sex slaves as he wants as long as he feeds them, clothes them, and screws them!
What does the Bible say about beating slaves? It says you can beat both male and female slaves with a rod so hard that as long as they don't die right away you are cleared of any wrong doing.
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, but slavery is still approved of in the New Testament, as the following passages show.
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn't know they were doing anything wrong.
The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2010 - 10:06pm PT
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Is there a DIFFERENCE between the Old and the NEW Testaments?
SURELY, the NEW Testament, being more MODERN, and NEWER, and written
at a LATER DATE, by a more EXPERIENCED GOD, would not look at SLAVERY
in the same, IGNORANT way that the Old Testament did.
RIGHT?
NO, NO, NO
You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, but SLAVERY IS STILL APPROVED IN THE NEW TESTAMENT.
WHEN will GOD finally GET IT RIGHT that slavery is WRONG?
NEVER, because GOD STILL believes slavery is just FINE.
God has to THIS DAY, never sent us his WORD that he has CHANGED HIS MIND.
THE ASSHOLE.
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Gobee
Social climber
Grace By Faith
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"Religion appeals to people because it makes them feel better about themselves and life and makes them better people. If a certain segment of our population looks forward to nuclear war and the end of the world, that's a good indication that our society has not been a hospitable place for them. They find refuge instead in being among the privileged few who are "saved". There's a lot to be said for the idea that religion died out in Europe when state sponsored social benefits were ushered in"
That's crazy, we don't want nuclear war or the end of the world! And anyone can be saved!
I wish the best to you all, God is Good, you have my good will, I can't do this anymore! Cheers, Matt
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jstan
climber
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There. Now it has actually been said out loud.
"They find refuge instead in being among the privileged few who are "saved". "
As I understood it the basic tenant of that religion was that you had no assurance that you were going to be saved. God makes that decision.
Not you.
If you did presume you would be saved you were trying to stand in god's place.
I may be wrong but in the west people pre-empting god's decision in this way were often referred to as "pharisees" and were not looked upon kindly because of their treatment of god's authority.
How far we have come.
I went back and studied the several sects of pre-christian and pre-Roman Jews. The pharisees were noted for their very strict observance and belief that god would treat them specially in light of that observance. This supports the use of that term in western cultures during the 19th century at least.
Edit:
On thinking about this i suspect I have been correct in refusing to use the word "christian." What we are looking at is, as Jan suggested, something that has nothing to do with christ but has been melded together with politics - just in order to gain power over us.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Maybe the proof of Evolution is that we don't hold the same savage belief systems (as posted by Norton) that people embraced 2-3000 years ago. (even the Christians and Jews who pay lip service to the Bible as the unerring word of God don't really buy the parts on slavery, killing, multiple wives and so on)
This has no bearing on whether there is God or not, just as the ideas of primitive scientists have been proved wrong now but nature still has it's laws.
Sort of like all the tourists look at El Capitan and say "nobody could ever climb that" and yet they do, and if you look at climbing in hollywood movies, you might say "that's ridiculous, nobody could actually climb a rock like that" and yet climbing exists!
So I agree that the things Norton has posted are pure ancient culture and not real spirituality, and yet I experience the Spirit loud and clear every day. The more I commune with it, the more peace of mind I have and the more open my heart is. It never tells me to skin anyone alive but to Love, accept, and understand All without regard to whether they are on my team or agree with me or not
Just sayin
Peace
Karl
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 8, 2010 - 11:17am PT
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Karl, I "think" I experience the same feeling as you do.
Perhaps, we are both just good men.
No reason to not feel good sometimes about yourself.
But why would human emotion necessarily have to come from someone or
something apart from our own selves?
ps Karl, I stumbled upon what you once wrote about Lois, unending
feedback loop, etc
brilliant
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Karl, I "think" I experience the same feeling as you do.
Perhaps, we are both just good men.
No reason to not feel good sometimes about yourself.
But why would human emotion necessarily have to come from someone or
something apart from our own selves?
It doesn't. Your own Self is your Soul. You don't HAVE a soul, You ARE your Soul, the very source of your awareness, Peace and Love arise from there but are distorted and obscured by the way we get wrapped up in the stories and illusions our mind-self images stir up. The real confusion is about what is yourself.
Even in Christianity Jesus says the kingdom of heaven is within. The Bible says man was created in the image of God. We're not talking about meat but soul here. Know yourself within and you know God, which is also within.
This whole thread is fearing and hating some idea of God which is projected from our wounded child who resents a father figure God who let them down. This illusion is nothing like reality.
Peace
Karl
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jan- Good stuff in there. I hope to get back today and delve into it deeper. Just wanted to take a moment to tell you thanks for posting it up.
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MH2
climber
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ps Karl, I stumbled upon what you once wrote about Lois, unending
feedback loop, etc
Your own Self is your Soul
Hmmmmm...
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jstan
climber
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Was overpopulation a severe issue during the Aramaic period? Perhaps population got ahead of increases in food production during their transition to agriculture? Perhaps desertification had already begun to set in?
Studies of that era might help us understand the degradation in social order we are encountering currently world wide as we go into our own overpopulation crisis?
Historically people heading off to do injury to someone have held up in the air one of two items.
A flag
Or the bible.
I think it was Lincoln who pointed out, both sides invariably claim god is on their side.
By the sheerest good luck god's complete absence of power on the earth's surface has spared us all an even worse fate.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Came across an interesting article here a few years ago, still easily found thanks to Google:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/601395/posts
Meteor Clue to End of Middle East Civilisations
Studies of satellite images of southern Iraq have revealed a two-mile-wide circular depression which scientists say bears all the hallmarks of an impact crater. If confirmed, it would point to the Middle East being struck by a meteor with the violence equivalent to hundreds of nuclear bombs.
Today's crater lies on what would have been shallow sea 4,000 years ago, and any impact would have caused devastating fires and flooding.
The catastrophic effect of these could explain the mystery of why so many early cultures went into sudden decline around 2300 BC.
They include the demise of the Akkad culture of central Iraq, with its mysterious semi-mythological emperor Sargon; the end of the fifth dynasty of Egypt's Old Kingdom, following the building of the Great Pyramids and the sudden disappearance of hundreds of early settlements in the Holy Land....
A date of around 2300 BC for the impact may also cast new light on the legend of Gilgamesh, dating from the same period. The legend talks of "the Seven Judges of Hell", who raised their torches, lighting the land with flame, and a storm that turned day into night, "smashed the land like a cup", and flooded the area.
So, given that most of the Judaic tradition was blatantly ripped off from its Sumerian predecessors and repurposed for political motives, it wouldn't be surprising if all the references to pillars of fire, death from above, etc. were traced back to this cataclysmic impact, the cultural memory of which still lingers on thanks to Constantine, Gutenberg, and King James.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Feb 10, 2010 - 07:25am PT
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Here's more information on climate change and social upheaval, this time correlating the failure of the Asian monsoon with the fall of Chinese dynasties.
http://asianhistory.about.com/od/asianenvironmentalhistory/a/ChinaMonsoon.htm
Can you imagine what the effects of global climate change through global warming and increasing overpopulation will be?
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roadman
climber
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Feb 10, 2010 - 10:40am PT
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I think it was Lincoln who pointed out, both sides invariably claim god is on their side.
jastan I think you hit the nail on the head...
How about that? I hate to get away from me true passion (teaching evolution because it's so cool) but i digress.
What do you GOD DOG pea's think about waring foes both saying god's on OUR side?
Not a real support of his/her existence. Unless his/her goal is to kill us all off!!!!!
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roadman
climber
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Feb 10, 2010 - 02:12pm PT
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And if their is a GOD DOG why not have all "his/her peeps" believe in one religion? under one tent so to speak....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Feb 22, 2010 - 10:17pm PT
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Interesting article on a Stonehenge- like temple in southeastern Turkey that is 11,500 years B.C. - 6,000 years older than anything similar.
The startling aspect of it is that it was built by hunters and gatherers rather than agriculturalists and thus turns our whole theory of the development of religion, agriculture and civilization upside down.
It seems that a huge temple complex where no one lived brought about the invention of agriculture and civilization rather than vice versa.The author intimates that religion is part of our genetic inheritence rather than the product of civilization and a priestly class.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/233844
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Feb 23, 2010 - 12:15am PT
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That's a great teaching tool for Physical Anthro, Ed.
Thanks!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 23, 2010 - 02:53pm PT
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The author intimates that religion is part of our genetic inheritence rather than the product of civilization and a priestly class.
Oh boy, it's the "either-or mentality" again. How about both (a) genetic inheritance and (b) product of civilization / culture.
For anyone truly interested in an intelligent discourse on the anatomy and history of religion and supernaturalist belief, it can be found here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iMmvu9eMrg
And for dessert, one on morality:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnXmDaI8IEo
Andy Thomson kicks ass.
Internet Video kicks ass.
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jstan
climber
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Feb 23, 2010 - 03:36pm PT
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Archeologists have studied desert kites in Irag built to capture and kill wild animals such as gazelle that are too fast to run down. (The indians in the US did the same by running herds of buffalo over a cliff.)
http://alsahra.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/khaybar-desert-kites.pdf
One picture of a kite that was thought to consist of low earthen walls.
Eventually the gazelle population collapsed because of our predation. Another Smithsonian write up on Gobekli said tens of thousands of gazelle bones were found directly on the site. Lunch.
Alright, I will here lapse into hypothesis.
You have hunter gatherers who are unable to outrun their prey, the prey is present in huge numbers, there are no cliffs, and you can't get close enough to spear the prey. Clearly kites were eventually used and what might be the first attempt at a kite? You get enough people together so that they can form two walls funneling the prey into an enclosure. You need to pull three bands of hunters together rather than having them working uncoordinated. The groups of people would have had to be increased in size. if it worked the larger groups could have been supported.
Now eventually a way would have been sought to prevent the loss of gazelle who choose to run through the lines of people and to escape. After all the gazelle who did not think to run through the lines had all been killed, gazelle would have gotten harder to catch this way. The walls would have needed to be better and the number of people increased further. Natural. What kind of structure might you choose to place along the earthern walls. A picture from the Smithsonian site:
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/gobekli-tepe.html
Do you suppose a gazelle might, in a dead run, take such a stone to be a person?
And since there was so much food from gazelle and from wild boar we would have amused ourselves by scratching into these stones the figures of the animals we have been killing. Now limestone is pretty heavy so such figures would have been easiest to build where the rock was located close to the place where it would be needed. How to test all of this hypothesising? Easy.
The gazelle would naturally have gone to a river for water. You would need to build a kite near such a watering hole so that people crossing the river from the other side would drive them directly into the kite. Now rivers flood so the earthen walls will have long since vanished and the stones buried. You need to find these stones arrayed along the place where the kite wall was located.
And when not working they would go to a place where the stone was even easier to play with. There they would build more of the stones.
Play time.
When all the gazele had been killed then they would have gotten interested in wheat.
That's what we did when I was a kid. On my best day I could not keep up with the gazelle.
Edit:
What gives with this incessant resort to worship? People get together when it allows them to get more and better food - first and foremost. Three times each day this occurs to each of us. Every last one of us. We are mammals. Our energy requirements are huge.
Does every last one of us get the over riding desire three times a day to go worship something - while hungry?
Now here's a hypothesis. Do people say, "Damn god for not bringing me enough food." No. I have never heard god so mentioned. Nor have I ever heard of food coming in this way. Very occasionally I hear someone say, "G damn him." when speaking of another person, generally in absentia. So even our habits of speech today suggest we started invoking gods to help us manage the interpersonal relations forced upon us by our need for food among other things.
If you look at the early tracts from the Aramaic period that is indeed what religious texts focussed upon. When you have a problem with people you go out with god's permission, and stone them to death. While the texts became gentler, presumably due to the valiant efforts of a kind gentleman who lived around our year zero, even today you find worshippers concentrating their efforts on the people around them. Sharing various information and admonishing them as to how they may or may not live - with threats of dire and everlasting suffering at the hands of a loving god if they do not obey.
All of this is ready made for situations where a person is dependent upon their neighbors for sustenance, real items, and they are casting about for ways to make their neighbors appreciate the honors and rewards it is within my power to bestow upon them - if they behave.
Ready made.
Hard to deny this, or something very like it, is at work here.
I asked why the incessant resort to worship. The answer is obvious. Today our interpersonal relations with others are just as much a problem as they were when we needed help to corral some gazelle for dinner. Maybe even more so.
Find the stones outlining a kite where the river would have been near Gobekli and we may begin to make some sense out of how it all came about.
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MH2
climber
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Feb 24, 2010 - 12:08am PT
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Thank you, jstan.
It is fascinating to find ancient arrangements of huge stones. After that the speculation begins. Surely folk of the time were doing many other things beside moving stones around but the traces are less obvious or lost completely.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 26, 2010 - 11:54am PT
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REPOSTED (On the news another thread might be nuked.)
Re: (1) Belief Upgrade Strategy (2) Belief Discipline Remodeling
To: Everyone interested in better practices in the "practice" of living (who isn't a supernaturalist) and everyone interested in general life guidance "modeling" (who is't a supernaturalist)
__
Until modernity gets around to building a modern spiritual belief discipline practice-- one based on the Scientific Story-- and until it gets around to institutionalizing it socially-- you must "take ownership" of your own spiritual belief discipline practice and work it out for yourself.
An organizing principle that worked for me: Develop your spiritual discipline on a basis of (1) "what is" in terms of facts, (2) "what matters" to the heart, (3) "what works" in terms of life strategies.
Lastly: Insofar as you can work this "lifesmart trinity" into a narrative-- a comprehensive overarching narrative that ties everything together-- in a way that works for you (regarding guidance, inspiration, support, etc.), the better.
Favorite passages from the Grand Bible (as opposed to the Holy Bible):
"To know what you don't know is critical to successful solutions. Dealing with your ignorance in a conscious way leads to a keener awareness." (Koberg 3:8)
"What appears to be is not always what really is. Perception and reality differ." (Koberg 3:16)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Feb 26, 2010 - 01:45pm PT
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Ever notice that Jstan has all the letters of "Satan" in it?
Jstan
Satan
Santa
Beware of these dirtbags!
;-)
Karl
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 26, 2010 - 01:52pm PT
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OMG! Verily, that is so, Karl.
Changing gears:
Does anyone at the Taco besides me distinguish between (a) the supernatural dimension and (b) the supernal dimension? Just curious. As I'm a "believer" in the supernal, just not the supernatural.
The "supernal" is everything of the Great Cosmos that is outside the realm, or realms, of human awareness or understanding.
The difference between the supernal and the supernatural is the difference between lightning and the lightning bug.
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jstan
climber
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Feb 26, 2010 - 01:58pm PT
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This may be a good time to mention the new design of cold shuts I am installing. When you see
them it will be apparent there is a 30% chance of failure. A large improvement over previous designs
having a 1% chance of failure.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 26, 2010 - 02:07pm PT
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re: Supernal versus Supernatural
The distinction is important because religious supernaturalists like to say that the non-supernaturalists don't get it, that they don't understand there are things beyond the obvious, beyond the senses. Well, no duh. So having supernal (and supernalist) in your vocabulary helps distinguish the two different concepts in any discourse with them. Try it next time your out philosophizing over a pitcher of beer. It works.
The "supernal domain" includes all the unknown worlds of the Cosmos (e.g., the billions of planetary systems Carl Sagan spoke of) about which we know nothing.
EDIT Ha, the supernavel!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Feb 27, 2010 - 08:34am PT
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2 Peter 3:1-9, This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, 3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. 4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Feb 27, 2010 - 09:32am PT
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Jan and Jstan,
Here is an article I posted in another thread -- Favorite Bible Passages?
Has The Garden Of Eden Been Found?
Do 10,000 year old stone, buried for thousands of years, mark the location of Gan Eden?
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2009/03/has-the-garden-of-eden-been-found.html
This would be from a Judaic/Christian point of view.
Apparently, if the absolute dating that has been done is correct, then it is even older than the article mentions here that I have re-posted, according to the articles you have posted indicate.
Another:
Do these mysterious stones mark the site of the Garden of Eden?
By Tom Knox
Last updated at 11:10 AM on 05th March 2009
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1157784/Do-mysterious-stones-mark-site-Garden-Eden.html#ixzz0gkLgqhuG
To me the evidence and the surrounding agricultural plain seem to fit the Genesis story of the Garden of Eden very well. I think they are onto something here. The casting out of the Garden, the lose of the Garden, and the dark history to follow also are in grim evidence at this incredible site.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Feb 27, 2010 - 10:30am PT
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Klimmer-
Intriguing article and website I must say!
I hadn't associated the find with the Garden of Eden but I did note that it was on the plains of Harran where Abraham originated. The finding of human sacrifice and the story of Abraham and Isaac tie together nicely too.
It would certainly be interesting if eastern Turkey proved the Old Testament to be historically accurate even as western Turkey and the discovery of the city of Troy proved the Iliad to be accurate.
Personally, I think this will cause the Torah to appear even more as a historical account of the Jewish people alone, just as the Vedas are a historical account of the Indian people, rather than a general history of mankind or general creation account. This is fine from the secular point of view but probably not be so pleasing to those who try to apply it to all of human kind.
Then again, if the Old Testament came to be seen as the folk history of the Jewish people, that might free up Christians to focus less on Jesus as the Jewish messiah and more on the universality of his teachings. True paradigm changing discoveries seldom end up being what most people originally thought they would be.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 27, 2010 - 10:40am PT
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The propaganda of a dying institution-
"Science and traditional theism are compatible." Hogwash. This is hogwash. It's time we stopped buying into it. In the interest of being more informed citizens of a modern democracy. In the interest of better practices.
People who would use their authority (e.g., a policeman, teacher) to say to kids (either directly or indirectly) that science and traditional theism are compatible are spewing nonsense. Don't let them get away with it.
Ghandi: Be the change you seek in the world.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Feb 27, 2010 - 11:01am PT
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Fructose-
I did listen to the videos you recommended on the previous page and found the psychiatrist's discussion of the characteristics of the human brain and its relationship to primate evolution to be very interesting. I could even see how it could apply to very primitive forms of theology. However, I thought that was all his talk really did very well.
Personally, I had problems with him using a graduate school level physiology and psychology on the audience one minute and then discussing religion in its most primitive and literalist level the next. If he had compared Aristotle and Thomas Acquinas to the physiology and psychology of the brain then it would have been an equivalent discussion. I even had the impression that maybe his level of religious and spiritual understanding only went to the primitive level?!
Then as his talk proceeded it became obvious that his real intention was to attack the creationists. I understand how their extreme views and aggressiveness in pushing their agenda have now provoked the opposite reaction. And I will bethe first to protest changing the science curriculum and the teaching of evolution. However, I personally do not find cultish, aggressive atheists to be any more attractive than cultish aggressive religionists.
I used to think it ridiculous that Atheists Inc. is a tax exempt religious organization, but after hearing the atheists preach on that and related websites, I think in fact it is another form of religion. In any case this new brand of atheism is something quite different than the quiet, skeptical, ironic atheists I have known all my life. Thus it seems, we now have different sects of atheists. And this is progress??
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Feb 27, 2010 - 11:08am PT
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Jan,
The one thing I also find intersting is that one of the above articles mentions that the site was deliberately and purposefully buried.
My questions: by Whom? When? And Why?
Usually when you bury something purposefully you want to hide it and protect it. It is also very possible you want to hide it so others will never know of its existance.
Hhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmm. This could be evidence of a very long ago (thousands of years) conspiracy. Amazing it was found. Pretty exciting.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 27, 2010 - 11:11am PT
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Jan- Well, what more can one say? I don't know, maybe just something in general terms.
The history of humanity is characterized by movements. These movements necessarily have a center and edges or fringes. The fringes in turn can be characterized as rearward fringe, backward fringe, lunatic fringe, crackerjack (forward) fringe, etc..
In my opinion, the Dennetts, Dawkins, Thomsons, Harrises, Sagans, Attenboroughs, Porcos et al of the world are crackerjacks (of the crackerjack fringe) and I'm proud to identify with this group.
"I could even see how it could apply to very primitive forms of theology." It's up to you to see that "modern" theology is "primitive" theology aggrandized, hypertrophied, institutionalized, dressed-up.
Happy trails. Kudos to you for your world travels. At an age and in a time when it was very "crackerjack" fringe. Good on ya.
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jstan
climber
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Feb 27, 2010 - 11:33am PT
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I certainly can see how a person who thinks religion is everything will see religions everywhere. I consider myself a nonbeliever. I use a word other than atheist so I avoid all the meanings people may personally associate with that word. I used to think I could just go my way and let everyone do their thing. No more.
Here in the US our flight from reason has brought us to the point that politics itself has become religion and we are no longer operating our country. People aren't interested in learning what is actually happening and the US has regressed into a primitive society. In some ways we are now more backwards even than Iraq.
A person can say their religion requires them to destroy this country. This does not mean we all should quietly let it happen.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 27, 2010 - 11:41am PT
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Jstan- There are times when I don't get your posts. But this one I got. It's one I can say I identify with.
Thanks for posting.
P.S. You might consider stop calling yourself a nonbeliever, too. Like atheist, it also plays into the hands of the religious "conversational framers."
We are believers, we believe in a lot of things.
Great reads in regard to language and language traps (by way of framing the conversation) are Lakoff and Luntz. (Although Luntz has used the Luntz insights in partisan rivalry for predominantly Republicans. It's time Democrats picked up on this.)
Jerry Falwell was as much a "nonbeliever" as Carl Sagan. It's just a matter of context, contextual "framing".
Christians are nonbelievers. Nonbelievers in Amon-Re. Nonbelievers in Apollo and Artemis, Son and Daughter of Zeus. Nonbelievers in Muhammad as a prophet of Yahweh.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Feb 27, 2010 - 11:51am PT
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I wouldn't say I am a nonbeliever, but I will say that true believers whatever their convictions, scare me. And Fructose, your comments never strike me as those of a true believer, however much you admire some of those who are.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 27, 2010 - 11:57am PT
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Belief is used all the time outside religious or supernaturalistic context. I don't go a day without purposely using the word belief or believer in a variety of contexts.
I'm a "true believer" in modern day camming devices. I trust in these marvels of technology. (In other words, I have "faith" in them.) They have saved my life on more than one occasion. There's nothing scary about being a "true believer" in modern state of the art camming devices. And there is nothing inappropriate about using the term in this context-- when a belief is defined as a mental holding.
But "true believers" in an ancient theology (that advocates the edict Jehovah hates infidels and wants you to destroy them) do scare me.
Here's a weschrist link from yesterday that relates:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsj9GPd5YTg
And my response was: I don't know, that video link you posted is kinda scary to me, knowing the content behind the melody. (Somebody should close caption it in English. Just to know the full story.)
__
Where are you Norton? Missin ya!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Feb 27, 2010 - 12:32pm PT
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Yes, I hope Norton's back is better now.
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MH2
climber
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Feb 27, 2010 - 02:34pm PT
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Overheard the other day on CBC Radio:
"The rock-climbing wall sounds cool, but I don't know about the religious stuff."
The speaker was identified as a Winnipeg young person.
There is no constitutional separation of church and state in Canada, and there is nothing wrong with Christian organizations attempting to convert non-believers, but there is a division of opinion on whether government money should be used to support Christian organizations whose mission is clearly stated to include such conversion.
http://www.religiousrightalert.ca/2010/02/22/youth-for-christ-winnipeg-proselytizing-and-political-patronage/
The significance of the problem today may owe somewhat to shrinking funding for government agencies to provide services like youth centers, and other agencies being willing to step in.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 27, 2010 - 03:16pm PT
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Weschrist- It is astonishing that our modern world evolved out of that. Huh? So "astonishing" it turns some away and so "astonishing" it draws others in.
Which explains my lifelong involvement.
Whoops, better explain that. In other words, it's so "astonishing" it "drew me in" to study it all the more, to get to the bottom of it, to not overlook it or deny it. And then to rebuild, reformulate, as necessary on top of it. In the interest of better practices in the art of living.
(Ha! it didn't "draw me in" to practice it. The other interpretation. No stoning hos in my history.)
Excellent link on Job. The world IS changing. Brick by brick. The current age is truly blessed (by Cosmic Providence) to have youtube and internet video. (I just wish it could've come a generation sooner. But heck, that's the nature of the cultural evolutionary process so I try my best to suck it up and live with it.)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 27, 2010 - 07:03pm PT
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Gentlemen, just catching up on your conversations in this thread now.
I am weary from a lengthy battle over at the Republican's thread.
Every time I get the cattle bedded down there, a stray wonders loose.
If asked, I tell em right upfront that I am an "atheist".
I have zero "doubts" so am not agnostic.
Personally, I take a lifetime (since age 5) of comfort in my conviction.
I don't bring it up to get in anyone's face, and I respect even Gobee here
for his own conviction. I use him only as THE example of the polar opposite
of myself.
Anyway, not ashamed or "proud" of my atheism, but yes, one can get the
feeling that others can view you as some sort of leper or whatever.
I like reading your thoughts, especially as regards the sapien brain
and it's evolutionary history!
What a really smart group of people posting on this thread.
Ardi, Lucy, and Charles would have been very proud.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 27, 2010 - 10:04pm PT
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Welcome back, Norton.
You guys on the political thread ever bring up Thomas Friedman? I like Thomas Friedman. Read him regularly. Really like how he puts the blame on us citizens and not just the politicians. For not stepping up.
__
"Yeah, it's a good idea: In lean times, the government (like family) needs to cut back.
What'd you say? It wants to cut programs in MY county? That would mean jobs.
That would be failure to grow. Better not. Where is my Rep? my Senators? They failed my county.
Throw the rascals out!"
EDIT (This isn't Friedman, this is me, imagining one of the predicaments our "mature" consumption-oriented democracy has us in.)
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Feb 27, 2010 - 10:27pm PT
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Here in the US our flight from reason has brought us to the point that politics itself has become religion and we are no longer operating our country. People aren't interested in learning what is actually happening and the US has regressed into a primitive society. In some ways we are now more backwards even than Iraq.
I've been thinking several weeks now about jstan's idea that politics has become religion in the U.S. and I've decided to respectfully disagree based on my experience of living in both Hindu and Buddhist villages in Nepal. What I perceive instead, is that the U.S. is becoming like the Hindu village with it educated and wealthy Brahmin elite and it's 20% Untouchables at the bottom and everyone in between trying to imitate the Brahmins because they're scared to death of slipping backwards.
The Brahmins perpetuated their feudal powers by keeping everyone else illiterate and through the cynical manipulation of religion - truly an opiate of the masses type situation. I say that crafty politicians in the U.S. are doing the same thing - not because they believe but because it gives them money and power.
Things change however, even in a country like Nepal. The sons of the Brahmin landlords joined the socialists and communists, the furthest anyone could get from the monarchy and the caste system, and they have pushed the whole country ahead several centuries in its thinking compared to just 30 years ago. Tribals, Untouchables, and women all played active roles in the Maoist army which finally brought down the king and legal system supporting caste. The Untouchables seem to be going for Christianity now, and the Buddhist are happy and productive where they are.
The interesting question in my mind is what will it take for the Americans to wake up to creeping feudalism in our society and change their government and maybe their religious belief system in the process. Personally, I don't think atheism and unbelief will do it for most people. I think they need something positive to believe in, to be willing to sacrifice for. Whatever that is, we don't have it in America yet (and I'm not advocating socialism/communism/Maoism) even though that worked in Nepal).
Probably things will have to get a whole lot worse before they get better and maybe none of this will be possible until world population peaks fifty years from now.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 27, 2010 - 10:52pm PT
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Jan wrote-
and I've decided to respectfully disagree
Sometimes I think you're too nice for this wild west styled forum. Or is it just your writing style? Hmm...
I think they need something positive to believe in, to be willing to sacrifice for. Whatever that is, we don't have it in America yet
re: "yet..." Ah-hah! I sense you are coming around! In regard to imagining alternative models and building anew, thinking anew, practicing anew. (For the culture, the species and the world, that is.)
All I can say is that... it's being worked on... diligently. (I know of more than one group.) A generation from now, alternatives will be available. In regard to belief. In regard to guidance, inspiration, and support. In regard to having modern standards in these areas. Keep the faith.
Hadrian- Brick by brick.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 28, 2010 - 12:11pm PT
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Weschrist-
Monkeysphere. Why it is so easy to use the US vs. THEM game on the small minded monkeys among us...
http://www.cracked.com/article_14990_what-monkeysphere.html
Interesting article. Regarding the "monkeysphere." Insightful. Ties in with my life experience.
If the circle or sphere were called "empathy sphere" or "compassion circle" or the like then it might get more traction in pop culture, studies in tribalism, etc.. Maybe.
Then one could talk about primate spheres (short for empathy spheres), monkey spheres, human spheres, conservative and liberal spheres, family spheres, large empathy sphere people, small empathy sphere people, etc.
re: a change of terms... I'm just reminded what Mark Twain wrote. -Which I use all the time. The difference between the right word and almost the right word is the difference between lightning and the lightning bug.
Or... "sympathy sphere"
Coincidentally, another link by Skeptimistic
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/02/26/liberals.atheists.sex.intelligence/index.html?hpt=C2
suggests conservatives have a smaller sympathy sphere (or monkeysphere) than liberals!
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jstan
climber
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Feb 28, 2010 - 12:48pm PT
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"The Brahmins perpetuated their feudal powers by keeping everyone else illiterate and through the cynical manipulation of religion - truly an opiate of the masses type situation. I say that crafty politicians in the U.S. are doing the same thing - not because they believe but because it gives them money and power."
That's what I was saying Jan. I agree completely.
I see politicians saying one word. "Socialism!"
And people are expected to react, and do, exactly as though he had said "Satan!"
Politics has become reflexive and words are used that hook into previously prepared slots in our minds.
That .......IS ..........religion. To a "T".
Unquestioned obedience is the result.
Unquestioned obedience is the superhighway to power and wealth
for someone.
Not for us.
As for how we are to save ourselves. For what are we willing to sacrifice?
We are not willing. We are spending our grandchildren into a life of unrewarded toil.
No problem.
We don't respect each other. If you can get away with taking something that is not yours.. you are good to go.
No problem.
Self-centered people unwilling to rein in their greed inevitably resort to......violence.
Popularly this is presently called "Kick butt."
Sheer ignorance........self-centeredness........greed.........anger.
We are making the word "american" synonymous with these.
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Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
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Feb 28, 2010 - 09:28pm PT
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That's one of my favorite
proverbs!
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 28, 2010 - 09:31pm PT
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Your material body is the house of pain.
You spend your whole life trying to keep the pain at bay.
Only to fail.
Your materialistic science is a total failure .....
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Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
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Feb 28, 2010 - 09:36pm PT
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And my favorite from Kung Fu:
Caine: What happens in a man's life
is already written. Man must
move through life as his destiny
wills.
Old Man: Yes, yet each man is free
to live as he chooses though they seem
opposite both are true. Ha, I do not
understand it.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Feb 28, 2010 - 11:36pm PT
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jstan-
Thanks for the clarification. I have to laugh at this given my love of the mystical and symbolic, but it seems I was taking your statement too literally!
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MH2
climber
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In guarding their fortune men are often close-fisted, yet, when it comes to the matter of wasting time, in the case of the one thing in which it is right to be miserly, they show themselves to be most prodigal.
Though all the brilliant intellects of the ages were to concentrate upon this one theme, never could they adequately express their wonder at this dense darkness of the human mind.
Men do not suffer anyone to seize their estates, and they rush to stones and arms if there is even the slightest dispute about the limit of their lands, yet they allow others to trespass upon their life.
Often a man who is very old in years has no evidence to prove that he has lived a long time other than his age.
Seneca
Moral Essays
translated by J.W. Basore
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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MH2-
Are you trying to make me feel guilty for watching so much television the last couple of weeks?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Footloose wrote-
And my favorite from Kung Fu:
Caine: What happens in a man's life
is already written. Man must
move through life as his destiny
wills.
Old Man: Yes, yet each man is free
to live as he chooses though they seem
opposite both are true. Ha, I do not
understand it.
That's an excellent quote. It would make an excellent entry in the freespirit's Grand Bible (as opposed to the Christian's Holy Bible or Muslim's Koran).
MH2- That's good stuff.
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MH2
climber
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MH2-
Are you trying to make me feel guilty for watching so much television the last couple of weeks?
Just poking fun at myself, really, if cryptically, though the shoe is sure to fit other feet.
You must know the sensation - reading what some person supposedly wrote 2,000 years ago - modern sentiments; "Don't follow the crowd.", mixed with the hoary; "We drown our sickly progeny."
Seneca was born in Spain but lived under Caligula and Nero in Rome, among other strangeness. I've been trying to relocate a passage I came across once in which he mentions a sense of reverence he felt when visiting a grove of large trees.
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jstan
climber
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Moving right along.
What Is Time?
One Physicist Hunts for the Ultimate Theory
By Erin Biba February 26, 2010
SAN DIEGO ‹ One way to get noticed as a scientist is to tackle a really difficult problem. Physicist Sean Carroll has become a bit of a rock star in geek circles by attempting to answer an age-old question no scientist has been able to fully explain: What is time?
Sean Carroll is a theoretical physicist at Caltech where he focuses on theories of cosmology, field theory and gravitation by studying the evolution of the universe. Carroll¹s latest book, From Eternity to Here: The Quest for the Ultimate Theory of Time, is an attempt to bring his theory of time and the universe to physicists and nonphysicists alike.
Here at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, where he gave a presentation on the arrow of time, scientists stopped him in the hallway to tell him what big fans they were of his work.
Carroll sat down with Wired.com on Feb. 19 at AAAS to explain his theories and why Marty McFly¹s adventure could never exist in the real world, where time only goes forward and never back.
Wired.com: Can you explain your theory of time in layman¹s terms?
Sean Carroll: I¹m trying to understand how time works. And that¹s a huge question that has lots of different aspects to it. A lot of them go back to Einstein and spacetime and how we measure time using clocks. But the particular aspect of time that I¹m interested in is the arrow of time: the fact that the past is different from the future. We remember the past but we don¹t remember the future. There are irreversible processes. There are things that happen, like you turn an egg into an omelet, but you can¹t turn an omelet into an egg.
And we sort of understand that halfway. The arrow of time is based on ideas that go back to Ludwig Boltzmann, an Austrian physicist in the 1870s. He figured out this thing called entropy. Entropy is just a measure of how disorderly things are. And it tends to grow. That¹s the second law of thermodynamics: Entropy goes up with time, things become more disorderly. So, if you neatly stack papers on your desk, and you walk away, you¹re not surprised they turn into a mess. You¹d be very surprised if a mess turned into neatly stacked papers. That¹s entropy and the arrow of time. Entropy goes up as it becomes messier.
So, Boltzmann understood that and he explained how entropy is related to the arrow of time. But there¹s a missing piece to his explanation, which is, why was the entropy ever low to begin with? Why were the papers neatly stacked in the universe? Basically, our observable universe begins around 13.7 billion years ago in a state of exquisite order, exquisitely low entropy. It¹s like the universe is a wind-up toy that has been sort of puttering along for the last 13.7 billion years and will eventually wind down to nothing. But why was it ever wound up in the first place? Why was it in such a weird low-entropy unusual state?
That is what I¹m trying to tackle. I¹m trying to understand cosmology, why the Big Bang had the properties it did. And it¹s interesting to think that connects directly to our kitchens and how we can make eggs, how we can remember one direction of time, why causes precede effects, why we are born young and grow older. It¹s all because of entropy increasing. It¹s all because of conditions of the Big Bang.
Wired.com: So the Big Bang starts it all. But you theorize that there¹s something before the Big Bang. Something that makes it happen. What¹s that?
Carroll: If you find an egg in your refrigerator, you¹re not surprised. You don¹t say, ³Wow, that¹s a low-entropy configuration. That¹s unusual,² because you know that the egg is not alone in the universe. It came out of a chicken, which is part of a farm, which is part of the biosphere, etc., etc. But with the universe, we don¹t have that appeal to make. We can¹t say that the universe is part of something else. But that¹s exactly what I¹m saying. I¹m fitting in with a line of thought in modern cosmology that says that the observable universe is not all there is. It¹s part of a bigger multiverse. The Big Bang was not the beginning.
And if that¹s true, it changes the question you¹re trying to ask. It¹s not, ³Why did the universe begin with low entropy?² It¹s, ³Why did part of the universe go through a phase with low entropy?² And that might be easier to answer.
Wired.com: In this multiverse theory, you have a static universe in the middle. From that, smaller universes pop off and travel in different directions, or arrows of time. So does that mean that the universe at the center has no time?
Carroll: So that¹s a distinction that is worth drawing. There¹s different moments in the history of the universe and time tells you which moment you¹re talking about. And then there¹s the arrow of time, which give us the feeling of progress, the feeling of flowing or moving through time. So that static universe in the middle has time as a coordinate but there¹s no arrow of time. There¹s no future versus past, everything is equal to each other.
Wired.com: So it¹s a time that we don¹t understand and can¹t perceive?
Carroll: We can measure it, but you wouldn¹t feel it. You wouldn¹t experience it. Because objects like us wouldn¹t exist in that environment. Because we depend on the arrow of time just for our existence.
Wired.com: So then, what is time in that universe?
Carroll: Even in empty space, time and space still exist. Physicists have no problem answering the question of ³If a tree falls in the woods and no one¹s there to hear it, does it make a sound?² They say, ³Yes! Of course it makes a sound!² Likewise, if time flows without entropy and there¹s no one there to experience it, is there still time? Yes. There¹s still time. It¹s still part of the fundamental laws of nature even in that part of the universe. It¹s just that events that happen in that empty universe don¹t have causality, don¹t have memory, don¹t have progress and don¹t have aging or metabolism or anything like that. It¹s just random fluctuations.
Wired.com: So if this universe in the middle is just sitting and nothing¹s happening there, then how exactly are these universes with arrows of time popping off of it? Because that seems like a measurable event.
Carroll: Right. That¹s an excellent point. And the answer is, almost nothing happens there. So the whole point of this idea that I¹m trying to develop is that the answer to the question, ³Why do we see the universe around us changing?² is that there is no way for the universe to truly be static once and for all. There is no state the universe could be in that would just stay put for ever and ever and ever. If there were, we should settle into that state and sit there forever.
It¹s like a ball rolling down the hill, but there¹s no bottom to the hill. The ball will always be rolling both in the future and in the past. So, that center part is locally static ‹ that little region there where there seems to be nothing happening. But, according to quantum mechanics, things can happen occasionally. Things can fluctuate into existence. There¹s a probability of change occurring.
So, what I¹m thinking of is the universe is kind of like an atomic nucleus. It¹s not completely stable. It has a half-life. It will decay. If you look at it, it looks perfectly stable, there¹s nothing happening Š there¹s nothing happening Š and then, boom! Suddenly there¹s an alpha particle coming out of it, except the alpha particle is another universe.
Wired.com: So inside those new universes, which move forward with the arrow of time, there are places where the laws of physics are different ‹ anomalies in spacetime. Does the arrow of time still exist there?
Carroll: It could. The weird thing about the arrow of time is that it¹s not to be found in the underlying laws of physics. It¹s not there. So it¹s a feature of the universe we see, but not a feature of the laws of the individual particles. So the arrow of time is built on top of whatever local laws of physics apply.
Wired.com: So if the arrow of time is based on our consciousness and our ability to perceive it, then do people like you who understand it more fully experience time differently then the rest of us?
Carroll: Not really. The way it works is that the perception comes first and then the understanding comes later. So the understanding doesn¹t change the perception, it just helps you put that perception into a wider context. It¹s a famous quote that¹s in my book from St. Augustine, where he says something along the lines of, ³I know what time is until you ask me for a definition about it, and then I can¹t give it to you.² So I think we all perceive the passage of time in very similar ways. But then trying to understand it doesn¹t change our perceptions.
Wired.com: So what happens to the arrow in places like a black hole or at high speeds where our perception of it changes?
Carroll: This goes back to relativity and Einstein. For anyone moving through spacetime, them and the clocks they bring along with them including their biological clocks like their heart and their mental perceptions no one ever feels time to be passing more quickly or more slowly. Or, at least, if you have accurate clocks with you, your clock always ticks one second per second. That¹s true if you¹re inside a black hole, here on Earth, in the middle of nowhere, it doesn¹t matter. But what Einstein tells us is that path you take through space and time can dramatically affect the time that you feel elapsing.
The arrow of time is about a direction, but it¹s not about a speed. The important thing is that there¹s a consistent direction. That everywhere through space and time, this is the past and this is the future.
Wired.com: So you would tell Michael J. Fox that it¹s impossible for him to go back to the past and save his family?
Carroll: The simplest way out of the puzzle of time travel is to say that it can¹t be done. That¹s very likely the right answer. However, we don¹t know for sure. We¹re not absolutely proving that it can¹t be done.
Wired.com: At the very least, you can¹t go back.
Carroll: Yeah, no. You can easily go to the future, that¹s not a problem.
Wired.com: We¹re going there right now!
Carroll: Yesterday, I went to the future and here I am!
One of things I point out in the book is that if we do imagine that it was possible, hypothetically, to go into the past, all the paradoxes that tend to arise are ultimately traced to the fact that you can¹t define a consistent arrow of time if you can go into the past. Because what you think of as your future is in the universe¹s past. So it can¹t be one in the same everywhere. And that¹s not incompatible with the laws of physics, but it¹s very incompatible with our everyday experience, where we can make choices that affect the future, but we cannot make choices that affect the past.
Wired.com: So, one part of the multiverse theory is that eventually our own universe will become empty and static. Does that mean we¹ll eventually pop out another universe of our own?
Carroll: The arrow of time doesn¹t move forward forever. There¹s a phase in the history of the universe where you go from low entropy to high entropy. But then once you reach the locally maximum entropy you can get to, there¹s no more arrow of time. It¹s just like this room. If you take all the air in this room and put it in the corner, that¹s low entropy. And then you let it go and it eventually fills the room and then it stops. And then the air¹s not doing anything. In that time when it¹s changing, there¹s an arrow of time, but once you reach equilibrium, then the arrow ceases to exist. And then, in theory, new universes pop off.
Wired.com: So there¹s an infinite number of universes behind us and an infinite number of universes coming ahead of us. Does that mean we can go forward to visit those universes ahead of us?
Carroll: I suspect not, but I don¹t know. In fact, I have a postdoc at Caltech who¹s very interested in the possibility of universes bumping into each other. Now, we call them universes. But really, to be honest, they are regions of space with different local conditions. It¹s not like they¹re metaphysically distinct from each other. They¹re just far away. It¹s possible that you could imagine universes bumping into each other and leaving traces, observable effects. It¹s also possible that that¹s not going to happen. That if they¹re there, there¹s not going to be any sign of them there. If that¹s true, the only way this picture makes sense is if you think of the multiverse not as a theory, but as a prediction of a theory.
If you think you understand the rules of gravity and quantum mechanics really, really well, you can say, ³According to the rules, universes pop into existence. Even if I can¹t observe them, that¹s a prediction of my theory, and I¹ve tested that theory using other methods.² We¹re not even there yet. We don¹t know how to have a good theory, and we don¹t know how to test it. But the project that one envisions is coming up with a good theory in quantum gravity, testing it here in our universe, and then taking the predictions seriously for things we don¹t observe elsewhere.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 29, 2010 - 11:33am PT
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"So again I say, you're left really with two choices. You either believe Genesis or you don't. You either believe the Genesis account that God created the heavens and the earth, or you believe they somehow evolved out of random chance......."
We can phrase the question slightly differently.
You can understand that simply the way the natural world is, has caused it to be inevitable that life comes to be and evolves as we see it around us - over time spans we cannot even begin to grasp.
Or you can imagine ......someone that looks like us created it all for some unknown reason.
Or you can imagine...... a great chicken laid an egg that became the universe.
Or you can imagine.......a great snake excreted the universe
Or you can imagine.......two monsters did battle and one was thrown down causing all we see
Or you can imagine.......
Or you can imagine.......
Or you can imagine.......
Or you can imagine.......
Or you can imagine.......
..................
The author arbitrarily defines the number of choices to be only two.
Ever wondered why the author says what he says?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Mar 29, 2010 - 11:40am PT
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ABSTRACT: Guilt and fear associated with religious beliefs have received little research attention. In a convenience sample of 100 adults, fear of punishment by God was significantly higher for fundamentalists protestants than for liberal protestants, or for those with a personal faith not associated with a religious organization. Feelings of guilt for not living up to their religious ideals were approximately the same for fundamentalist and liberal protestants. The pattern of correlations among well-being, importance of religion, and religious guilt and fear was consistent with the hypothesis that religious guilt and fear contribute to suppressing a positive relationship between subjective well-being and importance of religious faith.
http://jeksite.org/research/bv.htm
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jstan
climber
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Mar 29, 2010 - 12:31pm PT
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Interesting result from the above link:
"Evaluation of the fear and guilt questions indicated that guilt and fear of punishment should not be considered as part of one scale. The item analysis methods of multitrait scaling described in Stewart, Hays, and Ware (1992) are useful when developing a few items to measure a relatively narrow construct. In the present data, the guilt item correlated only .27 with the mean of the four other items, whereas, a correlation of at least .30 and preferably .40 or higher is desirable for scale construction. Therefore, the single guilt item was treated separately and the four other items were used in a religious fear scale (alpha reliability .77). The variation of religious fear and guilt among the religious categories confirmed that fear and guilt were distinct factors in this sample."
End excerpt
In effect, feeling guilty does not mean one is also to be afraid. How so?
If you feel you have not done as you should have - you feel guilty.
But you are afraid only if you believe there is a heaven or a hell (for example).
Guilt and fear are responses to two entirely unrelated states of belief.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Mar 29, 2010 - 02:02pm PT
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http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2010/0325/For-Templeton-Prize-intelligent-design-opponent-Francisco-Ayala?sp_rid=NTI5OTY1NjQzOAS2&sp_mid=4393038
UC Irvine evolutionary biologist Francisco Ayala has won the 2010 Templeton Prize, which honors those who make 'an exceptional contribution to affirming life's spiritual dimension.'
By Peter N. Spotts, Staff writer / March 25, 2010
A highly respected evolutionary biologist has received the 2010 Templeton Prize, an award issued each year by the John Templeton Foundation to a person "who has made an exceptional contribution to affirming life's spiritual dimension, whether through insight, discovery, or practical works."
This year's winner, Francisco Ayala, is perhaps best known scientifically for his research into the evolutionary history of the parasite scientists have associated with malaria, with an eye toward developing a cure for the disease. He also pioneered the use of an organism's genetic material as molecular clocks that help track and time its origins.
But for the past 30 years, he has been at the forefront of battles to keep creationism and its more-sophisticated offshoot, intelligent design, out of public-school biology classes, noting that they actually represent religion masked as natural science. At the same time, he has vigorously argued that religion is a vital pillar in American life.
The US scientific enterprise is the envy of the world, he says, and the country is the most religious of any nation in the western world. "It is nothing short of tragic to see these two pillars of society are often seen as in contradiction with each other," he said during the award's presentation Thursday at the National Academy of Sciences in Washington.
"Properly understood, there can be no contradiction because they deal with different subjects," he said.
Although he has been reluctant over the years to describe his own religious leanings, Mr. Ayala argues that religion and science are "different windows" for looking at the world. Only when each tries to make "assertions beyond their legitimate boundaries" do the two appear to clash.
"Science gives us an insight on reality which is very important; our technology is based on our science," he says. "But at the end of the day, questions important to people, questions of meaning, purpose, moral values, and the like" are not answered through science.
Beyond championing the roles science and religion can play in their respective domains, he also has argued that "scientific knowledge, the theory of evolution in particular, is consistent with a religious belief in God, whereas the tenets of creationism and the so-called intelligent design are not."
While intelligent-design advocates point to the complexity of many biological processes as too intricate to have emerged from a random evolutionary process, Ayala points to many of biology's flawed designs as evidence of a lack of intelligence behind them.
"Any engineer who would have designed the human jaw bone would be fired the next day," he says. Instead, he terms biology's flawed products as "a consequence of the clumsy ways of nature and the evolutionary process."
Ayala, a professor at the University of California at Irvine, began his dual journeys into science and religion during his formative years in Spain, where he graduated from college with a bachelors degree in physics. After graduation, he studied theology there, and five years later became an ordained priest.
But during his theological studies, two geneticists took him under their wing, and in 1961, Ayala moved to New York to take up graduate studies in evolutionary biology and genetics at Columbia University. And he left the priesthood.
Over the course of his career, he has won awards for his scientific work and has served on several high-level science advisory panels in the US. In 2001, President George W. Bush awarded Ayala the National Medal of Science.
In a prepared statement, John Templeton Jr., the president and chairman of the John Templeton Foundation said, "Ayala's clear voice in matters of science and faith echoes the Foundation's belief that evolution of the mind and truly open-minded inquiry can lead to real spiritual progress in the world."
Ayala says he will donate the $1.42 million prize to charity.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Cintune-
Thank you for this posting. It's the first I've heard of this one. It has really been a stellar year for fossil finds - Ardi, the non Neanderthal, non Homo sapiens in Siberia, and now this link between Austrolopithecus and Homo habilis. The family tree just keeps getting more and more like a bush!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Nice to see this thread back on evolution.
Speaking of such, biologists are now considering two new names in the taxonomy of H. sapiens: H. sapiens regularis and H. sapiens superbus. They are doing this to account for the wide cross-section of humanity (e.g., as evidenced by its diversity in belief) and to represent either ability or inability to adapt to modern age understanding (e.g., science education, evolutionary theory).
Extra notes: (a) Apparently the likes of Carl Sagan on one side of the spectrum and the likes of Glen Beck, Sarah Palin and/or Rush Limbaugh on the other inspired the group's paper and efforts. (b) Sources say the criteria for the suggested division and new taxonomic names are found in the brain's processing architecture and brain software. (c) More functional MRI are underway.
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WBraun
climber
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God has been proven
Chris McNamara created SuperTopo and mankind began ....
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Perhaps Werner means "humankind".
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Alpinist909
Mountain climber
Chesapeake
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Jan, thanks for the post.
Interesting comment about the jawbone. I have heard a similar comment about the flawed human eye.
I just posted on the string about "Favoite bible verse....". I just could not hold my tongue anymore.
Survial of the Sickest. I forget the authors name. Great book.
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 26, 2010 - 03:52pm PT
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“Religion easily has the best bullshit story of all time. Think about it. Religion has convinced people that there's an invisible man... living in the sky. Who watches everything you do every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a list of specific things he doesn't want you to do. And if you do any of these things, he will send you to a special place, of burning and fire and smoke and torture and anguish for you to live forever, and suffer, and burn, and scream, until the end of time. But he loves you. He loves you. He loves you and he needs money.”
George Carlin
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Apr 26, 2010 - 03:56pm PT
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"Who can show a pedigree like Leviathan? Ahab’s harpoon had shed blood older than Pharaoh’s. Methusaleh seems a schoolboy. I look round to shake hands with Shem. I am horror-struck at this antemosaic, unsourced existence of the unspeakable horrors of the whale, which, having been before all time, must needs exist after all humane ages are over."
from Moby Dick
by Herman Melville
All the evidence indicates that the universe existed for billions of years before Earth. Earth existed for billions of years before humans. Species have come and gone over hundreds of millions of years. Humanity will eventually go the way of the dinosaurs or the Dodo, and the Earth and universe will go on for billions of years as if all human history never happened.
For me, the very definition of Pride is belief in a god, because on a universal scale we are utterly insignificant.
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go-B
climber
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Apr 26, 2010 - 06:39pm PT
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God always was, IS, and will be!
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Apr 26, 2010 - 06:59pm PT
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^^^^^^
a big misconception. Either that or, the invisible man in the sky isn't doing his job
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2010 - 07:16pm PT
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will be what?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Apr 26, 2010 - 07:53pm PT
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Full of himself.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Apr 27, 2010 - 05:30pm PT
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Have yall killed god yet?
God Jehovah? Yeah.
It's Ovah for Jehovah.
Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2010 - 05:38pm PT
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Ardi probably would say it is what it is, nothing more or less, deal with it.
Run the tape of the evolution of planet earth over and over and over, and
there is a very good chance that homo sapiens never appears.
We ARE that special, that random, that unique. Make the best of it because
no one gets another chance.
Eventually, we are doomed anyway, the sun boils the earth's oceans and
then burns out, turning the earth into an ice ball of rock.
As Locker would say, we're all gonna die!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Apr 27, 2010 - 06:05pm PT
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"And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes the judgement." Hebrews 9:27
"But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgement and destruction of ungodly men." 2 Peter 3:7
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Apr 27, 2010 - 06:14pm PT
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Run the tape of the evolution of planet earth over and over and over, and
there is a very good chance that homo sapiens never appears.
Cockroaches might also never appear. Doesn't mean anything. We are as special as a any bug or worm out there.
Dave
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 27, 2010 - 06:18pm PT
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As Locker would say, we're all gonna die!
Not me, I'm joining you in the eternal fiery pits of hell, my master.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2010 - 06:27pm PT
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"And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes the judgement." Hebrews 9:27
Judgement day, my ass.
Grow up, it's time to stop believing in children's fairy tales.
I am mad as hell and not gonna take it anymore.
Dirt for POTUS!
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 27, 2010 - 06:56pm PT
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I'd take an oath to The Beast.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Apr 27, 2010 - 09:43pm PT
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Norton wrote-
"I am mad as hell and not gonna take it anymore."
Damn straight.
Just watched "Why We Fight." We fight for our ideals. We fight for what we believe in.
It's time we fought to get the bronze age stupidities out of our beliefs. Because the 21st century is going to be challenging enough on its own without having to deal with them, too.
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go-B
climber
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Apr 27, 2010 - 10:12pm PT
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By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Apr 27, 2010 - 11:28pm PT
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"He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning." Ecclesiastes 3:11
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 27, 2010 - 11:40pm PT
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God Bless Mark Twain!
So much blood has been shed by the Church because of an omission from the Gospel: "Ye shall be indifferent as to what your neighbor's religion is." Not merely tolerant of it, but indifferent to it. Divinity is claimed for many religions; but no religion is great enough or divine enough to add that new law to its code.
Mark Twain, a Biography
We despise all reverences and all the objects of reverence which are outside the pale of our own list of sacred things. And yet, with strange inconsistency, we are shocked when other people despise and defile the things which are holy to us.
Following the Equator
Man is a Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion--several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if his theology isn't straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother's path to happiness and heaven....The higher animals have no religion. And we are told that they are going to be left out in the Hereafter. I wonder why? It seems questionable taste.
"The Lowest Animal"
India has two million gods, and worships them all. In religion all other countries are paupers; India is the only millionaire.
Following the Equator
Alas! those good old days are gone, when a murderer could wipe the stain from his name and soothe his trouble to sleep simply by getting out his blocks and mortar and building an addition to a church.
The Innocents Abroad
Monarchies, aristocracies, and religions....there was never a country where the majority of the people were in their secret hearts loyal to any of these institutions.
The Mysterious Stranger
The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also. I would not interfere with any one's religion, either to strengthen it or to weaken it. I am not able to believe one's religion can affect his hereafter one way or the other, no matter what that religion may be. But it may easily be a great comfort to him in this life--hence it is a valuable possession to him.
Mark Twain, a Biography
In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.
Autobiography of Mark Twain
My land, the power of training! Of influence! Of education! It can bring a body up to believe anything.
A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court
We were good boys, good Presbyterian boys, and loyal and all that; anyway, we were good Presbyterian boys when the weather was doubtful; when it was fair, we did wander a little from the fold.
67th birthday dinner, 11/28/1902
I do not know what we should do without the pulpit. We could better spare the sun--the moon, anyway.
Mark Twain in Eruption
I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's.
Mark Twain in Eruption
Man is kind enough when he is not excited by religion.
A Horse's Tale
Religion consists in a set of things which the average man thinks he believes, and wishes he was certain.
Notebook, 1879
I was educated, I was trained, I was a Presbyterian and I knew how these things are done. I knew that in Biblical times if a man committed a sin the extermination of the whole surrounding nation--cattle and all--was likely to happen. I knew that Providence was not particular about the rest, so that He got somebody connected with the one He was after.
Autobiography of Mark Twain
We don't cut up when mad men are bred by the old legitimate regular stock religions, but we can't allow wildcat religions to indulge in such disastrous experiments.
"The New Wildcat Religion"
A religion that comes of thought, and study, and deliberate conviction, sticks best. The revivalized convert who is scared in the direction of heaven because he sees hell yawn suddenly behind him, not only regains confidence when his scare is over, but is ashamed of himself for being scared, and often becomes more hopelessly and malignantly wicked than he was before.
Letter San Francisco Alta California, November 15,1868
I do not take any credit to my better-balanced head because I never went crazy on Presbyterianism. We go too slow for that. You never see us ranting and shouting and tearing up the ground, You never heard of a Presbyterian going crazy on religion. Notice us, and you will see how we do. We get up of a Sunday morning and put on the best harness we have got and trip cheerfully down town; we subside into solemnity and enter the church; we stand up and duck our heads and bear down on a hymn book propped on the pew in front when the minister prays; we stand up again while our hired choir are singing, and look in the hymn book and check off the verses to see that they don't shirk any of the stanzas; we sit silent and grave while the minister is preaching, and count the waterfalls and bonnets furtively, and catch flies; we grab our hats and bonnets when the benediction is begun; when it is finished, we shove, so to speak. No frenzy, no fanaticism --no skirmishing; everything perfectly serene. You never see any of us Presbyterians getting in a sweat about religion and trying to massacre the neighbors. Let us all be content with the tried and safe old regular religions, and take no chances on wildcat.
"The New Wildcat Religion"
The Koran does not permit Mohammedans to drink. Their natural instincts do not permit them to be moral. They say the Sultan has eight hundred wives. This almost amounts to bigamy.
The Innocents Abroad
Apparently one of the most uncertain things in the world is the funeral of a religion.
Following the Equator
Zeal and sincerity can carry a new religion further than any other missionary except fire and sword.
Christian Science
The altar cloth of one aeon is the doormat of the next.
Notebook, 1898
I have a religion--but you will call it blasphemy. It is that there is a God for the rich man but none for the poor.....Perhaps your religion will sustain you,will feed you--I place no dependence in mine. Our religions are alike, though, in one respect--neither can make a man happy when he is out of luck.
Letter to Orion Clemens, 10/19-20/1865
We have to keep our God placated with prayers, and even then we are never sure of him--how much higher and finer is the Indian's God......Our illogical God is all-powerful in name, but impotent in fact; the Great Spirit is not all-powerful, but does the very best he can for his injun and does it free of charge.
Marginalia written in copy of Richard Irving Dodge's Our Wild Indians
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go-B
climber
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Apr 28, 2010 - 08:11am PT
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Matthew 15:13-14, He (Jesus) answered, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up. 14 Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Apr 28, 2010 - 08:18am PT
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^^^^^^
So what?
I can quote from the Brothers Grimm or Aesop, they have as much authority.
"The bible is the word of god because the bible tells me so", isn't very convincing for some of us.
But at least your quotes are getting shorter.
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MH2
climber
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Apr 28, 2010 - 07:29pm PT
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Have yall killed god yet? Just looking for a Progress Report....
In the human record of posing good questions and looking for answers no one has found a smoking gun that implies any kind of god.
There is a lot of other stuff in the human record, though.
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dirtbag
climber
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May 14, 2010 - 06:15pm PT
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An inspiring movie for the spiritually inclined:
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go-B
climber
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May 16, 2010 - 10:41am PT
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Stop the monkey buisness...
Psalm 106:19-21, They made a calf in Horeb
and worshiped a metal image.
20 They exchanged the glory of God
for the image of an ox that eats grass.
21 They forgot God, their Savior
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go-B
climber
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May 18, 2010 - 10:06pm PT
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Genesis 1:1
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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May 18, 2010 - 10:38pm PT
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In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
That was just on the first six days. On the seventh he took a break, goofing off and throwing rocks at Baffin Island and Patagonia.
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Fig's Lady
Social climber
Bishop, CA
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Aug 18, 2010 - 02:23am PT
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Hmmmm.....Anthroposophy anyone?????
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 28, 2010 - 04:04am PT
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bumpity bump bump
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Excerpted from George William Hunter, A Civic Biology: Presented in Problems (New York, 1914): pp. 193-196, 253-254, 261-263.
Evolution of Man. - Undoubtedly there once lived upon the earth races of men who were much lower in their mental organization than the present inhabitants. If we follow the early history of man upon the earth, we find that at first he must have been little better than one of the lower animals. He was a nomad, wandering from place to place, feeding upon whatever living things he could kill with his hands. Gradually he must have learned to use weapons, and thus kill his prey, first using rough stone implements for this purpose. As man became more civilized, implements of bronze and of iron were used. About this time the subjugation and domestication of animals began to take place. Man then began to cultivate the fields, and to have a fixed place of abode other than a cave. The beginnings of civilization were long ago, but even to-day the earth is not entirely civilized.
The Races of Man. - At the present time there exist upon the earth five races or varieties of man, each very different from the other in instincts, social customs, and, to an extent, in structure. These are the Ethiopian or negro type, originating in Africa; the Malay or brown race, from the islands of the Pacific; the American Indian; the Mongolian or yellow race, including the natives of China, Japan, and the Eskimos; and finally, the highest race type of all, the Caucasians, represented by the civilized white inhabitants of Europe and America�.
Charles Darwin and Natural Selection. - The great Englishman Charles Darwin was one of the first scientists to realize how this great force of heredity applied to the development or evolution of plants and animals. He knew that although animals and plants were like their ancestors, they also tended to vary. In nature, the variations which best fitted a plant or animal for life in its own environment were the ones which were handed down because those having variations which were not fitted for life in that particular environment would die. Thus nature seized upon favorable variations and after a time, as the descendants of each of these individuals also tended to vary, a new species of plant or animal, fitted for the place it had to live in, would be gradually evolved�.
Artificial Selection. - Darwin reasoned that if nature seized upon favorable variants, then man by selecting the variants he wanted could form new varieties of plants or animals much more quickly than nature. And so to-day plant or animal breeders select the forms having the characters they wish to perpetuate and breed them together. This method used by plant and animal breeders is known as selection�.
Improvement of Man. - If the stock of domesticated animals can be improved, it is not unfair to ask if the health and vigor of the future generations of men and women on the earth might be improved by applying to them the laws of selection. This improvement of the future race has a number of factors in which as individuals may play a part. These are personal hygiene, selection of healthy mates, and the betterment of the environment�.
Eugenics. - When people marry there are certain things that the individual as well as the race should demand. The most important of these is freedom from germ diseases which might be handed down to the offspring. Tuberculosis, syphilis, that dread disease which cripples and kills hundreds of thousands of innocent children, epilepsy, and feeble-mindedness are handicaps which it is not only unfair but criminal to hand down to posterity. The science of being well born is called eugenics.
The Jukes. - Studies have been made on a number of different families in this country, in which mental and moral defects were present in one or both of the original parents. The "Jukes" family is a notorious example. The first mother is known as "Margaret, the mother of criminals." In seventy-five years the progeny of the original generation has cost the state of New York over a million and a quarter dollars, besides giving over to the care of prisons and asylums considerably over a hundred feeble-minded, alcoholic, immoral, or criminal persons. Another case recently studied is the "Kallikak" family. This family has been traced back to the War of the Revolution, when a young soldier named Martin Kallikak seduced a feeble-minded girl. She had a feeble-minded son from whom there have been to the present time 480 descendants. Of these 33 were sexually immoral, 24 confirmed drunkards, 3 epileptics, and 143 feeble-minded. The man who started this terrible line of immorality and feeble-mindedness later married a normal Quaker girl. From this couple a line of 496 descendants have come, with no cases of feeble-mindedness. The evidence and the moral speak for themselves!
Parasitism and its Cost to Society. - Hundreds of families such as those described above exist to-day, spreading disease, immorality, and crime to all parts of this country. The cost to society of such families is very severe. Just as certain animals or plants become parasitic on other plants or animals, these families have become parasitic on society. They not only do harm to others by corrupting, stealing, or spreading disease, but they are actually protected and cared for by the state out of public money. Largely for them the poorhouse and the asylum exist. They take from society, but they give nothing in return. They are true parasites.
The Remedy. - If such people were lower animals, we would probably kill them off to prevent them from spreading. Humanity will not allow this, but we do have the remedy of separating the sexes in asylums or other places and in various ways preventing intermarriage and the possibilities of perpetuating such a low and degenerate race. Remedies of this sort have been tried successfully in Europe and are now meeting with success in this country.
i know, who in the world would use a SCIENCE textbook that promotes racism and genocide?
John Scopes
look it up!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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bookworm,
your point is?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2010 - 02:35pm PT
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Don't know either.
Booky is quoting from something written 100 years ago in 1914.
When Ardi was still decomposing.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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I'm decomposing and soon I'll be compost!
Psalm 102:11, My days are like an evening shadow; I wither away like grass.
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dirtbag
climber
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Idiotic, but true:
Facing a rising tide of joblessness, the governor of Kentucky has found one solution: build an ark.
The state has promised generous tax incentives to a group of entrepreneurs who plan to construct a full-size replica of Noah’s ark, load it with animals and actors, and make it the centerpiece of a Bible-based tourist attraction called Ark Encounter.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/06/us/06ark.html?hp
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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i know, who in the world would use a SCIENCE textbook that promotes racism and genocide?
Yeah and it's a good thing no one ever used a religous book to promote violence and bigotry.
It's funny when we try to convince righties about the risk of global warming, sheesh they can't even accept evolution.
I'd like to go to ARK encounter and dress up as Gilgamesh and yell "This is MY ark! You copy cats are ripping me off!!"
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2011 - 11:24pm PT
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LUCY WALKED UPRIGHT!
A fossilized foot bone from Ethiopia indicates that human ancestors had largely abandoned swinging from trees by 3.2 million years ago and were spending virtually all of their time walking upright, researchers said this week.
The metatarsal bone from Australopithecus afarensis — the species made famous by the 1974 discovery of the specimen known as Lucy — clearly shows that the species had stiff, arched feet just like modern humans.
Such feet are stiff enough to push off from the ground when taking a step and flexible enough to absorb shock when the foot touches down. But they have lost the ability to grasp branches and other objects — a distinguishing characteristic of Lucy's predecessors, Ardipithecus ramidus.
Although fairly complete skeletons of A. afarensis had been obtained from the so-called First Family Site in Hadar in eastern Africa, researchers had not previously obtained a complete foot and thus could only speculate about Lucy's method of locomotion.
Get important science news and discoveries delivered to your inbox with our Science & Environment newsletter. Sign up »
The new knowledge that she had arches in her feet affects much of what we know about the 3 1/2-foot-tall creatures, including where they lived, what they ate and how they avoided predators, said anatomist Carol V. Ward of the University of Missouri School of Medicine, one of the authors of the report in the journal Science. Her coauthors were William H. Kimbel of Arizona State University, who discovered the bone, and Donald C. Johanson of ASU, who led the team that discovered Lucy.
The development of an arched foot represented a fundamental shift toward the human condition, Ward said, because it meant giving up the ability to use the big toe to grasp branches, signaling that our ancestors had finally abandoned life in the trees for life on the ground. Lucy and her kin could leave the forest and roam the countryside to forage for food when necessary. With their powerful jaws, they could eat a variety of foods, including fruit, seeds, nuts and roots.
Researchers had previously believed that the first member of the human family tree to walk upright was Homo erectus, which flourished between 1.8 million and 70,000 years ago before giving way to modern humans. But the new discovery indicates that the transition from trees to grasslands actually took place one to 2 million years earlier.
The discovery is not a surprise to everyone.
A decade ago, anthropologist Bruce Latimer of Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland discovered fossilized footprints of three A. afarensis hominids who had walked over ash from a volcano in the Serengeti that had recently erupted. The 3.5-million-year-old footprints looked just like modern footprints, he said, indicating that the hominids had arched feet. But others did not consider that sufficient evidence.
Latimer, who specializes in studying walking, said that a major advantage of standing upright is that it allows us to carry things, including food, weapons and especially children.
The disadvantage is that two-legged creatures can be very slow. An injury to one leg "makes us leopard food," he said.
thomas.maugh@latimes.com
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Feb 11, 2011 - 11:39pm PT
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Bipedalism was very important, but so were breeding strategies and intelligence.
Anyone can be leopard food today if they are not smarter than a leopard. Accidents will happen, and the population still has to increase.
There was probably a combination or things, including climate change, that selected for our ancestors.
Thank god we kept some of our climbing genes
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jstan
climber
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Feb 11, 2011 - 11:56pm PT
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"discovered fossilized footprints of three A. afarensis hominids who had walked over ash from a volcano in the Serengeti that had recently erupted."
One set of footprints were robust, apparently male, one set was gracile, apparently a female and the third was a smaller set. I looked carefully at a photo of the tracks once and saw that the smaller set came up to the gracile track and then ended. You can imagine a child, as they do today, raising its arms and saying "Up!"
A description of the site said that the trio were headed across an area of volcanic ash and were most likely bound for a nearby lake presumably occupied by others. The report also said acacia (cats claw) was the predominent vegetation in the area and further that large cats were the dominant predator. I immediately pictured the trio hurrying to reach their destination with the male carrying a bundle of acacia switches. A switch that can get a cats eyes would be about the best weapon available, I would think.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Feb 12, 2011 - 10:31am PT
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Homo denisovan - another interesting new find from Siberia.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/25/science/25human.html
This find is exciting as it seems to solve a long standing controversy regarding the origins of the Chinese who have long maintained that H. sapiens evolved separately in China from H. erectus and that the Chinese did not come from Africa as did other H. sapiens. In fact, they have many old fossils in China of around 100,000 b.p. which are different than anything else in the world but have some neanderthal like characteristics such as a bony bun on the back of the head.
Modern DNA sampling (over 100,000) of Chinese indicates they all came from Africa however. This discovery now makes it clear that there was more than one modern human in China and some of them may even have mixed. Both factions of Chinese scientists were right in their own realms.
Berkeley DNA specialist Vincent Sarich had a prescient comment along these lines. "I know that I had ancestors because I am alive and I have DNA. The fossil hunters can only hope that their specimens had descendants".
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 12, 2011 - 11:22am PT
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Bump for Lucy and Ardi!
The First Flintstones.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Feb 12, 2011 - 11:54am PT
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Just running the bases to home plate!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 12, 2011 - 12:11pm PT
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Denial: Not just a river in Egypt
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Feb 12, 2011 - 12:48pm PT
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God made man...but he used a monkey to do it....Devo
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 12, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
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Monkeys are cool
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MH2
climber
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Feb 12, 2011 - 01:48pm PT
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"This discovery now makes it clear that there was more than one modern human in China and some of them may even have mixed."
I wonder if this did occur whether there would be a noticeable signal in the DNA of clothing lice versus hair lice, if you separated Chinese samples from the rest of the world. The report I heard said they had averaged lice samples from all around the world.
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/28/1/29.abstract
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Feb 13, 2011 - 08:06am PT
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Correction rottingjohnny.
God made man but he used an ape to do it.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Apr 15, 2011 - 06:14am PT
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Here's another really exciting find, regarding the evolution of language which traces it back to Africa by applying biology methods to linguistics.
Traditionally linguists have tried to trace language evolution through words since comparative word lists are what enabled them to understand the relationships of individual languages and group them into language families. However, this method only allowed them to go back about 10,000 years.
Now biologists are using the same statistical methods on language that they have used so successfully on the human genome. Quentin D. Atkinson of the University of Auckland in New Zealand had the obvious (in retrospect) idea to compare phonemes instead of words. A phoneme is an individual sound such as a consonant or a vowel, or a tone.
When the number of phonemes in a language is plotted on a map, the highest density of them, like the highest density of genetic variation, clearly shows up in Africa. The languages with the smallest number of phonemes are those of South America and Oceania, the regions furthest away from Africa in terms of human migration.
This indicates among many other things, that humans had a fully developed language before they left Africa 50,000 years ago and probably much before that.
The New York Times has a summary here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/15/science/15language.html?ref=global-home
and the full article, is in the journal Science.
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/332/6027/346.abstract
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 15, 2011 - 12:05pm PT
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using mathematics to understand language? Tony's not going to like that...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Apr 15, 2011 - 03:06pm PT
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Statistics to be exact.
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 15, 2011 - 04:58pm PT
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Science Friday on NPR had a good interview with Richard Leakey. The second half of the show was supposed to talk about what Jan posted, but unfortunately I was unable to listen to it.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 15, 2011 - 05:16pm PT
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Tony has a suspicion of numeracy in any of its instantiations...
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 26, 2011 - 12:25pm PT
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"The news was simply too exciting to keep under wraps: A Swiss particle accelerator may have found a long-sought subatomic bit called the Higgs Boson -- something never before seen, but thought to be the fundamental unit of matter. It's called the "God Particle" because it is the one thing that lends mass to all other stuff."
ok, so there are scientists that believe in the existence of something they've never seen and have no proof for other than their own beliefs but contend that this thing is, essentially, the beginning of the whole universe?
of course, no answer as to where/how this higgs-boson came into existence
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 26, 2011 - 02:11pm PT
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the Higgs is predicted by the ElectroWeak unification of forces by Salam and Weinberg, it has long been expected and we've been "searching" for it for many years...
it is the particle which is the quantum manifestation of the scalar field that breaks a symmetry of nature, that symmetry would have the masses of all the field propagator bosons be the same and equal to zero... the Higgs breaks that symmetry "dynamically" and gives mass to the W and Z bosons while keeping the photon at zero mass. Basically it provides a way which unifies the electromagnetic and weak forces... a major milestone on the unification program in particle physics.
The massive W and Z bosons (all of which have been observed and measured) means that the weak interaction, the one responsible for radioactive decay, and for the slow burning solar fusion cycle, is "weak" if it were stronger we'd live in a very different universe, if like were possible at all under those conditions.
If you want to know more about the Higgs, I can ramble on for hours... though your math ability may limit your comprehension...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 26, 2011 - 11:10pm PT
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so bookworm's pretty quiet on the Higgs...
here is a discussion of the "Higgs Mechanism"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_mechanism
which is not bad....
and by the way, we learn not only in the confirmation of prediction, but also in the failure to confirm. If the Higgs particle does not exist, we learn a lot about physics. Either way it is something new about the universe. The old theories would have to be revised or discarded.
That's a feature...
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Lennox
climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
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Apr 27, 2011 - 12:53am PT
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Bookworm's attempt at irony through the dubious suggestion that scientist's have faith in something scientific for which they have no evidence, is trumped by the unintended way he has created a kind of socratic irony.
He has unwittingly taken the role of the ignorant, non-sensical interlocutor who criticizes scientists for going on faith (which they aren't), while paradoxically, he would undoubtably maintain his faith as being a good thing, as well as, it would seem, not making any effort to truly understand or provide any evidence to refute the science he would criticize.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 27, 2011 - 01:07am PT
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And all the while he is typing on a computer that was created by the same process he is criticizing.
One is hard pressed to think someone with no hidden agenda could assume such a position.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Apr 27, 2011 - 04:14am PT
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Bookworm may well have a hidden religious agenda.
However, irony is irony. It's like poetry. It doesn't have to be scientifically correct to be amusing and thought provoking.
For science we consult scientists. For poetry, poets. For theology, theologians.
However, irony it seems to me, can pop up anywhere.
The human brain is capable of handling all of the above though each field requires specialization in the modern world. If only the specialists on all sides could give credit to each other.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Apr 27, 2011 - 04:24am PT
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Speaking of which, I just watched a talk by the neuroscientist Ramachandran, whom I know jstan appreciates, on the neuroscience behind art appreciation. He uses south Indian sculpture which I am particularly fond of, to illustrate his points. In the process, one learns a great deal about Indian history and philosophy.
At the end, he says, "I was born a Hindu, but as a scientist, I must remain agnostic". He then goes on to mention standard Hindu philosophy of the universe, without committing himself, and leaving the viewer to wonder how much he still believes or if he thinks science and the Hindu world view are reconcilable.
For me at least, that is a great way to handle such questions.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 27, 2011 - 11:33am PT
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I know you like the irony, but to me it's a stretch.
You consult an expert on science, but you do not have to, the logic of science, the observations, experiments, methods and techniques, these things are open and available for all to study. You do not have to declare your philosophy, nor do you have to proclaim your faith for any creed or loyalty to any sect.
It starts first as measurement, and then proceeds to the relationship of those measurements. The language best suited for this, mathematics, is one that anyone can master. It is not a language that is fixed, it grows on, wonderfully, sometimes on its own, sometimes when prodded to provide insight to those physical phenomena quantified in our observations.
Mathematics often seems a barrier, and those of us who take to it wonder why those that do not have a problem. It would be interesting to hear from those who teach mathematics on the process of learning mathematics.
The world so measured starts to unfold a myriad of relationships, each supplying the means to expand the extent of the web to other phenomena, to categorize among relationship, to analogize. Bit-by-bit we are able to understand more, to predict more, and slowly in our minds, but rapidly compared to the scale of our history, and incredibly quick compared to our existence, the veil lifts from before our eyes to reveal a marvelous universe, with a unity hinted at in ancient beliefs, but now laid out before us with incredible logic and an extensive body of observation.
What it is that we learn may not be what we initially hoped to know, but science doesn't yield to our desires. It was described to me as a young man, by an old man, to be "a conversation with nature. One which requires us to listen to carefully." It is a conversation open to all.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 27, 2011 - 11:53am PT
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Jan:
No. I don't think his agenda is religious at all. It appears to be so only because it gave cover in this instance. It was "used."
Look at all of his other stuff. Integrate over the whole.
Americans presently are subject to one of the greatest deceptions of all time. We salute capitalism because the idea of a free market is very appealing and is probably the way to go.
But what is the first thing a "capitalist" does? He tries to destroy his competition so he might have a monopoly. Why? Because people who try to pass themselves off under the free market banner value only money. And money is something it is impossible to have too much of. For money - monopoly is the way to go.
America is not capitalistic. Not even vaguely.
And we buy into the ruse.
Deception is the order of the day.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 27, 2011 - 12:02pm PT
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"He has unwittingly taken the role of the ignorant, non-sensical interlocutor who criticizes scientists for going on faith (which they aren't), while paradoxically, he would undoubtably maintain his faith as being a good thing, as well as, it would seem, not making any effort to truly understand or provide any evidence to refute the science he would criticize."
it seems your literary understanding matches my mathematical understanding
pointing out the irony is NOT a criticism of the scientists' apparent "faith"; rather, it's a criticism of some scientists' continual, acerbic, and often personally contemptuous response to the faith that others express in an unseen, unproven higher power
from ed, himself:
"and by the way, we learn not only in the confirmation of prediction, but also in the failure to confirm. If the Higgs particle does not exist, we learn a lot about physics. Either way it is something new about the universe. The old theories would have to be revised or discarded."
so there are scientists who BELIEVE in this thing that even ed confirms may "not exist"...they believe in something for which there is no proof, simply "prediction" or hypothesis...if that's not "faith", i don't know what is...again, that is not a criticism of the scientists or the scientific process, merely an observation and, perhaps, a gentle request to those like jstan and lennox to show a little respect for those who disagree or, even, simply question
check this out (ed, with all due respect):
You consult an expert on poetry, but you do not have to, the beauty of poetry, the observations, experiments, methods and techniques, these things are open and available for all to study. You do not have to declare your philosophy, nor do you have to proclaim your faith for any creed or loyalty to any sect.
It starts first as measurement, and then proceeds to the relationship of those measurements. The language best suited for this, poetry, is one that anyone can master. It is not a language that is fixed, it grows on, wonderfully, sometimes on its own, sometimes when prodded to provide insight to those spiritual phenomena quantified in our observations.
Poetry often seems a barrier, and those of us who take to it wonder why those that do not have a problem. It would be interesting to hear from those who teach poetry on the process of learning poetry.
The world so measured starts to unfold a myriad of relationships, each supplying the means to expand the extent of the web to other phenomena, to categorize among relationship, to analogize. Bit-by-bit we are able to understand more, to predict more, and slowly in our minds and hearts, but rapidly compared to the scale of our history, and incredibly quick compared to our existence, the veil lifts from before our eyes to reveal a marvelous universe, with a unity hinted at in ancient beliefs, but now laid out before us with incredible logic and an extensive body of observation.
What it is that we learn may not be what we initially hoped to know, but poetry doesn't yield to our desires. It was described to me as a young man, by an old man, to be "a conversation with ourselves. One which requires us to listen to carefully." It is a conversation open to all.
finally, i defer to francis collins, former head of the genome project and barry's pick to head the nih:
http://articles.cnn.com/2007-04-03/us/collins.commentary_1_god-dna-revelation?_s=PM:US
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2011 - 12:04pm PT
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"Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves. " - Carl Sagan
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2011 - 12:07pm PT
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jstan
climber
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Apr 27, 2011 - 12:13pm PT
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"so there are scientists who BELIEVE in this thing that even ed confirms may "not exist"
Misrepresentation enabled by misuse of language.
Not just "even Ed." Scientists do not "BELIEVE". Book abuses the word
Note how many words this time though. The beast is wounded.
Conscious and calculated deception.
Book is not this stupid.
He "BELIEVES" we are however.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 27, 2011 - 12:20pm PT
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this is considered art by some, and a vial debased statement by others... which is it?
Piss Jesus by Andres Serrano (1987)
when you talk about those things touching on human aesthetics, bookworm, you inevitably have to define what it is... take poetry for instance... or art above, or literature.
While you have replaced my "science" with your "poetry" you cannot define poetry independent of human aesthetic, while science may lead us far from what we believe the aesthetic "should be," as witnessed by the debate on this very thread, which is largely the objection to science's presumed aesthetic vs. human belief.
There is not much of science which I leave to belief for very long, and those things which are ill posed may be the subject of scientific opinion, but such matters of importance pass from the ill posed to the more precisely stated hypothesis and then are subject to test, and however they fair in those tests we learn something about the science. This independent of our desire as to how the test should turn out, or our belief in how it should turn out.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 27, 2011 - 12:28pm PT
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http://www.exploratorium.edu/origins/cern/ideas/higgs.html
"Higgs, they believe, is a particle, or set of particles, that might give others mass."
see it? "they BELIEVE"
i'm not sure what you mean by claiming that i'm misusing or misrepresenting words...do you mean there are no scientists who BELIEVE this thing exists? this article seems to refute that claim:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/13.7/2011/04/27/135754004/the-god-particle-a-disclaimer
here's another: http://www.exploratorium.edu/origins/cern/ideas/higgs.html
"The first inclination is to assume that W and Z simply exist and interact with other elemental particles. But for mathematical reasons, the giant masses of W and Z raise inconsistencies in the Standard Model. To address this, physicists postulate that there must be at least one other particle -- the Higgs boson.
The simplest theories predict only one boson, but others say there might be several. In fact, the search for the Higgs particle(s) is some of the most exciting research happening, because it could lead to completely new discoveries in particle physics. Some theorists say it could bring to light entirely new types of strong interactions, and others believe research will reveal a new fundamental physical symmetry called "supersymmetry."
CERN scientists were unsure whether these events recorded by the ALEPH detector indicated the presence of a Higgs boson. Check out the links listed below for the latest information on the search for the Higgs Boson.
First, though, scientists want to determine whether the Higgs boson exists. The search has been on for over ten years, both at CERN's Large Electron Positron Collider (LEP) in Geneva and at Fermilab in Illinois. To look for the particle, researchers must smash other particles together at very high speeds. If the energy from that collision is high enough, it is converted into smaller bits of matter -- particles -- one of which could be a Higgs boson. The Higgs will only last for a small fraction of a second, and then decay into other particles. So in order to tell whether the Higgs appeared in the collision, researchers look for evidence of what it would have decayed into."
here are the highlights (from a english teacher's perspective):
"The first inclination is to assume that W and Z simply exist"
"others believe research will reveal a new fundamental physical symmetry called "supersymmetry.""
"CERN scientists were unsure whether these events recorded by the ALEPH detector indicated the presence of a Higgs boson."
"First, though, scientists want to determine whether the Higgs boson exists."
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 27, 2011 - 12:38pm PT
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I'd like to see Higgs' Bosom.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 27, 2011 - 12:41pm PT
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I'll repeat what I have said before but not for Book's benefit. He knows what he is doing.
"Believe" used to mean one thought something to be true.
The word has been co-opted to mean you believe something to be true without data. It's religious application has crowded out its former meaning.
With that misuse of the word Book gets the room he needs to write nonsense without it being quite so evident.
I can't say I "believe" Book calculated all of this beforehand.
I can say I think it.
Edit: 3:50PM
Half a day has gone by with no response from our friend.
If you look back through several years of ST you will find this is unusual. So I advance a hypothesis. A hypothesis being a model we are ever prepared to abandon the moment better is found. cf. footnote 1. below
Here on ST we may increase our chance of not swimming endlessly in exchanges leading nowhere, merely by carefully deconstructing positions, so as to make the confusion upon which they so often rest
obvious.
If so, there is hope for us, yet.
1. This process of immediately abandoning the good as soon as better has been found was operative in producing the computer Bookworm uses. At Bell they started out looking at point contacts on germanium but in very short order they decamped to studies of silicon. To the benefit of us all.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Apr 27, 2011 - 01:32pm PT
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And so go the American culture wars.
Abandon all humor, irony and hope who enter here.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 27, 2011 - 02:02pm PT
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belief is a question of faith
faith can be based on many things
in religion, faith is based on revealed truth, the revealer being an agent of a deity. One's belief is confirmed through interpreting life's events as a consequence of those truths. The concept of truth is absolute.
in science, faith is based on the logical tenets of the physical theory as derived through mathematically rigorous logic and tested by experiment and observation. One's belief can be disproved in science. The failure of belief does not lead to a rejection of the science, but in the expansion of understanding. Here the concept of "truth" is provisionary.
The differences between concepts of faith and belief in religion and science are so different as to be unrecognized by proponents of either... a scientist and a religonist may use the same words and mean utterly different things. Take bookworm's interpretation of scientists' use of the language above to show that science is the same as religion. Similarly, the attempt to make a science of creationism, which though appropriating the terminology of science, utterly fails any test of it being a science.
If science proceeds using the broadly termed "scientific method" one cares not at all what the user of this method believes, the method corrects for the human foibles which are introduced, inevitability, by that user. It is an evolutionary process were ideas die at the hand of experimental confirmation, and surviving ideas propagate new ideas to be tested in that landscape. It changes and adapts to our expanding knowledge. It renews itself.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 27, 2011 - 02:07pm PT
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I'd like to see Higgs' Bosom.
you'd be underwhelmed, and probably creeped out
Peter Higgs
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Apr 27, 2011 - 02:11pm PT
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... it can be abused and that is why some governmental oversight is necessary.
I'd just like to point out that this is not entirely true. Some form of economic oversight is necessary but government oversight is much more efficient than individual oversight, not mandatory or required. It's the same as police and fire departments; they are not mandatory or required and each individual could have a fire truck and gun. It's just more efficient to have a government handle those things so we don't all have to buy fire trucks!
Capitalism is natural and all organisms strive for monopoly. A monopoly for eating a food source has a better chance to lead a species to survival than sharing the food source with other species. Those species that don't strive for monopoly just die out because they can't compete with the species that do.
Dave
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 27, 2011 - 02:13pm PT
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you'd be underwhelmed, and probably creeped out
Thanks for nothing Ed.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Apr 27, 2011 - 02:33pm PT
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in religion, faith is based on revealed truth, the revealer being an agent of a deity. One's belief is confirmed through interpreting life's events as a consequence of those truths. The concept of truth is absolute.
Huh? If God revealed himself to me then I would not need any faith to believe. I would have proof if only for that moment that He was revealed to me.
With proof, there is no need for faith. With faith, there can be no proof or it is not faith.
Proof is absolute. Truth is abstract. Proof can be shared but the "truth" that you speak of cannot be shared. It is personal and therefore prone to all of the baggage that comes with each person who spouts off about the "truth."
Here is the joke version; "A Christian, Jew, and Muslim walk into a bar. Each tells me that they know the truth. Do the liars in the group know that they are lying?"
Do you know if you are lying?
Dave
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Lennox
climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
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Apr 27, 2011 - 05:57pm PT
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My literary understanding is just fine bookworm.
Please tell me that the county with the highest median income in this country does not employ you to teach AP English Language.
Either you really are ignorant of the difference between a scientist's belief in her work--until it is disproved--and a christian's unyielding belief in his deity, or you must have an anti-science agenda and are just playing word games.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2011 - 06:10pm PT
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County with the highest median income?
Isn't that Los Alamos County, New Mexico?
Right next to Rio Ariba County, one of the poorest.
I live in New Mexico, above is just what I have been told, did not google for the "truth"
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Apr 27, 2011 - 06:25pm PT
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A creation story as good as any other:
My father's people say that at the birth of the sun and of his brother the moon, their mother died. So the sun gave to the earth her body, from which was to spring all life. And he drew forth from her breast the stars, and the stars he threw into the night sky to remind him of her soul.
Hawkeye to Clara, relating the Mohican creation story
Last of the Mohicans
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2011 - 06:25pm PT
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Thank you Lennox, I see Los Alamos is number 6 richest.
All the richest seem to be east coast, Virginia.
Forgot why this came up......
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2011 - 06:27pm PT
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Fructose!
Where you been? Nice to have you back on this thread.
Everything ok there in Iowa?
My parents were from the little farm town of Remsen, not far from Le Mars.
Spent some summers there on the family grain farms in the 1950s. I Love Iowa, where are you?
I still remember singing the Iowa rouser, "That's where the tall corn grows" !
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jstan
climber
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Apr 27, 2011 - 06:35pm PT
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Usually when people speak of the soul they make no reference to anything on which we can stand while considering the matter. Starting from Hawkeye's description of the "soul" I think it possible to discuss it.
At basis is it not a longing (nothing more) for something that persists? In Hawkeye's description each person really does not have their own private soul. It is something shared. The stars are there for all.
Actually when I think about it I wonder if religion as we know it only began when people began living in houses. They no longer so often looked up at night and were confronted by true immensity.
Since then, to an ever increasing degree, we have insulated ourselves from true immensity.
We are still doing it. Indeed going climbing is one way we edge back just a little closer to some immense questions.
Possible death/injury is one of the immense questions after all.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Apr 27, 2011 - 11:30pm PT
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As I understand it from eastern religions and those branches of Christianity that I identify with, the soul is our emotional self, and the seat of our intentions. In as much as our emotional life is formed by others when we are young children and involves interacting with others our whole life, it is social. In modern terminology it is the right brain or the unconscious mind. According to religion it is what determines our fate at death.
The spirit is a higher part of the mind and what is actually of the same essence as the consciousness behind the universe. Only a few people in this life ever glimpse their true spirit as they are so bogged down in the emotional garbage of the unconscious and their habitual reactions to that garbage..People go on retreats and live in monasteries in order to minimize their social interactions and emotions to try to see through to their spirit.
As for the idea that climbing and sleeping out of doors gets us back in touch with the infinite, I am completely agreed. Starting with agriculture, humans got the idea that they could control nature and lost their sense of awe. Modern science and technology has only heightened that trend. Just once in a while when something like an earthquake and tsunami wipe out large parts of a highly technical civilization, do we get reminded that humans really aren't in charge in the greater scheme of things. I've also observed that people who live in milder climates like California are particularly imbued with the idea of humans in control even compared to people who live in snowy climates with severe winters.
Another way of looking at climbers is that we are throwbacks to the Paleolithic, less adapted to the past 8,000 years of civilization than the norm for our species. Of course if the doomsayers are correct about peak oil and massive die offs, we will be the survivors after all.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 28, 2011 - 12:23am PT
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Actually no ordinary person can ever accomplish anything like that. ^^^^
Thus they were most likely very advanced souls carrying and acting out these events under direction of the supreme superior for reasons us ordinary fools can not comprehend.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 28, 2011 - 12:30am PT
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No Satan
God does everything ......
For a reason
And you can never know them all.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 28, 2011 - 12:50am PT
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God does everything ......
Even everything the scientist is doing.
Nothing moves or happens without him moving it first ....
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jul 29, 2011 - 08:09am PT
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http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/nstv/2011/07/how-the-universe-appeared-from-nothing.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=online-news
both sides of the debate rest upon equally implausible claims: 1) creationists insist that SOMETHING existed before ANYTHING; 2) big bangers insist that EVERYTHING came from NOTHING
personally, i find the first implausibility easier to accept, accepting that there is/was something that we have not yet explained because it is beyond our understanding (like gravity was for so long)
the vid is seems to address the original implausibility but quickly moves away but, in so doing, actually belies its own assertion
"a system can never have precisely zero energy and since energy and mass are equivalent, pairs of particles can form spontaneously as long as they annihilate one another very quickly"
see the logical error? the assertion rests on the accepted idea that there is a "system" (ooooh, sounds like a design); well, a system is SOMETHING so the theory contradicts itself by admitting that the "system" already existed, therefore, there was no NOTHING to begin with
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 29, 2011 - 09:44am PT
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big bangers insist that EVERYTHING came from NOTHING
"Big bangers" aren't insisting on anything.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 31, 2011 - 06:23pm PT
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there is no nothing
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MH2
climber
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Jul 31, 2011 - 08:17pm PT
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there is no nothing
But the null set comes close enough for practical purposes.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Sep 22, 2011 - 03:58pm PT
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I will let Dogberry speak for me in a language adequate for creationists:
"Marry, sir, they have committed false report; moreover, they have spoken untruths; secondarily, they are slanders; sixth and lastly, they have belied a lady; thirdly, they have verified unjust things; and, to conclude, they are lying knaves."
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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Sep 22, 2011 - 08:51pm PT
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Sep 22, 2011 - 11:21pm PT
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A very interesting new fossil has just been found.
Austrolopithecus sediba
Many scientists are proclaiming that this new Austrolopithecine find is the link between that species and the most archaic Homo line. If this is true, it will displace Homo habilis, the current candidate.
So far two skulls, a complete right hand, a foot and a two pelves have been found in a cave in South Africa.
The date is 1.977 years based on atomic dating methods from the strata just above the fossils.
The brain case is small like an Austrolopithecine and the frontal lobes show australopith-like convolutional patterns but also some foreshadowing of features of the human frontal lobes, such as posterior positioning of the olfactory bulbs. The bones of the eyes and face align most closely with human endocasts.
The hand presents a suite of Australopithecus-like features, such as a strong flexor apparatus associated with arboreal locomotion, and Homo-like features, such as a long thumb and short fingers associated with precision gripping and possibly stone tool use.
The ankle joint is mostly humanlike in form and there is some evidence for a humanlike arch and Achilles tendon. However, Au. sediba is also apelike in possessing more robust bones and a greater flexibility than expected. This seems to indicate that Au. sediba may have practiced a unique form of bipedalism and some degree of tree climbing.
The partial pelvis remains of both individuals were reconstructed. Again, these remains share some features with australopiths and some features with Homo.
Many of these fetures are shared with other Austrolopithecines but it was a surprise to see so many Homo sapiens like features in an Austrolopith 1.977 years old, thus making Homo habilis look more and more like a dead end Austrolopith rather than the ancestor of the human line.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Feb 24, 2012 - 10:56am PT
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Well duh, of course you can't prove god doesn't exist. Silly booky.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Feb 24, 2012 - 11:39am PT
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Science & religion: niether can prove there is or isnt a god.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 24, 2012 - 11:44am PT
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you of course meant Richard Dawkins...
...after watching Steven Weinberg I would have to think that Dawkins would agree that scientists find god and religion irrelevant to questions regarding the existence and character of the universe.
After that, the belief in one is exactly the same as the belief in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny.
WADR
IMHO
YMMV
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 24, 2012 - 11:57am PT
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how about context?
With All Due Respect... a delicious phrase...
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jstan
climber
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Feb 24, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
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Thanks Jan, for the opportunity to hear about Sediba. One thing is very clear though. Sediba had to have been a dead end. That creature walked with stride as do we but it had long arms for climbing and a small brain.
No such individuals live today; thus a dead end.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 24, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
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its extremely difficult to proof that something doesn't exist when there is no proof that it exists.
Only for the gross materialistic scientists.
They remain continually bewildered .......
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Feb 24, 2012 - 01:45pm PT
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I just heard a political joke today that spoofed all the various political parties.
When the comedian got to the Tea Party he said, "Ah yes, they're the people
who believe in social darwinism even though they don't believe in Darwin.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2012 - 01:51pm PT
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Only for the gross materialistic scientists.
They remain continually bewildered .......
what a fool
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cowpoke
climber
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Feb 24, 2012 - 03:30pm PT
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you of course meant Richard Dawkins...
...after watching Steven Weinberg I would have to think that Dawkins would agree that scientists find god and religion irrelevant to questions regarding the existence and character of the universe.
After that, the belief in one is exactly the same as the belief in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny.
WADR
IMHO
YMMV I'm probably taking the Santa and Bunny comment too seriously, but...
Rather than Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny, isn't a more appropriate comparison to juxtapose creation beliefs with contemporary and/or past beliefs in supernatural causes of phenomena for which science has documented natural explanations?
For example, a useful comparison might be with the past (current for some, perhaps?) belief that evil spirits are responsible for mental health problems.
A small distinction, but by focusing on real examples of people proposing supernatural causes for natural events rather than fictional characters created to entertain rather than explain, it seems to allow a genuine discussion of whether -- or if and under what conditions -- one is comfortable accepting the null hypothesis.
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cowpoke
climber
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Feb 24, 2012 - 04:29pm PT
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Sure but the Santa Claus Easter Bunny list will be thousands of lines shorter.
yeah, I guess, but if we just push the holiday list a bit further we get to some reasonable comparisons such as ghosts, which have been proposed to both entertain and explain...and in comparing them to creation beliefs, they help provoke the types of discussions that I think are pertinent = defining if and when one is comfortable accepting the null.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Feb 25, 2012 - 01:45pm PT
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hey bookworm,
appreciate the headsup on this 23 feb 2012 debate at Oxford:
Richard Dawkins, evolutionary biologist versus Rowan Williams, Archbishop of Canterbury
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb4aanpsx6Q
Revealing I think for what it doesn't say. Also, for how poorly it says it.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Interesting article in which the Leakey family of Kenya is now claiming that there were three species of modern humans existing in Africa between 1.8 and 2 million years ago - Homo erectus from whom H. sapiens descends, Homo rudolfensis, and Homo habilis.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/08/120808-human-evolution-fossils-homo-nature-science-meave-leakey-flat/
Outside of Africa we know of at least three modern descendants of Homo erectus - H. neanderthals, H. floresiensis "the hobbits", and Homo denosivan.
Out of all of these, only Homo sapiens survived to the modern age. Either we were the smartest or the meanest or both.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2012 - 12:37pm PT
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Out of all of these, only Homo sapiens survived to the modern age. Either we were the smartest or the meanest or both.
or perhaps the aliens chose homo sapiens as the species they wanted to jump start
by impregnating select females with some of their superior DNA
like maybe Lucy
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Another interesting find reported today. It turns out that Homo denisovan from northern Asia and early Homo sapiens interbred somewhat as did neanderthals and H. sapiens in Europe. All three are descended from Homo erectus but in different time frames. It seems geographical variations, formerly known as races, may result in part from which archaic species the invading Homo sapiens mixed with.
This was all determined from a new method of processing DNA from ancient fossils which opens the door to much more detailed information in the future.
http://news.yahoo.com/dna-analysis-shows-ancient-humans-interbred-denisovans-230000855.html
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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jstan: No such individuals live today; thus a dead end.
I'm not sure that's the conclusion I'd draw of late...
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dirtbag
climber
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Aug 22, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
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I've decided long ago I can't vote for a creationist for president.
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