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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2010 - 10:37pm PT
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Wes go back and read my last five or more post I admitted I was wrong twice. For the third time i said Jesus said there would be a earthquakes in various places!
And since then I did some follon the science nerd sites where they admit they were wrong about the increase in earthquakes. ETC,
So milk it.
Find another picture with a guy with his head up his ass and(or his thumb)and say don't worry 777 they have your picture but they won't show your face.
Think I care what they show of the real me?
You and half the other people like that Rick or Ricky guy who said they couldn't find Jesus up his#@hole when he went to the doctor and had a ... And Wanda with his/her pathetic insults are pure HATE. And you can't control it. I realy pity you.
I thought for two seconds and came to the conclusion...maybe they will get a brief look at themselves if I make a complete azz of my self swearing. And TWO I could care less about the incident in Mammoth, nobody I new owned a damn thing, I sure didn't. I was making a point in regards to the fact that science is not infallible...period.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2010 - 10:51pm PT
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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dknow- "Sam Kinisins take on Christianity. 'Jesus didn't have a wife."
LUDE CRUDE ANTI-CHRIST-IAN!
Humor? Where is Sam now?
Sam Kinison taking his microphone and using it as a phallic symbol like he is taking a leak in the corner and pretending some blind guy comes up and asks him for help and he curses at him and starts shaking it back and forth and getting huge laughter and etc curses again....all in a comic routine that he says is what realy must have realy happen end/represented the real Jesus. All in front of an audience of 30,000 people in Madison Square Garden, filmed live for his DVD, The dude didn't live much longer...but what about the 30,000 people, hilarious in the audience??
And just today I come along this song of "TOOL" called "Eulogy" about Jesus Christ, total degradation, about His lies and "Come down off the f#kin cross". The sold ten million albums/Cd's to the idol worshiping youth of America where they have "there is no god" shoved down there throats from the time they are seven years old.
You better hope that Jesus is a ferry tale.
I was sitting on my chair typing up my first post wondering if I should mention earthquakes and clarify what I had said earlier. I would not lie in regards to this< I questioned God twice in regards to the meaning of earthquakes,, and at the fisish of the second time BAM and earthquake hit. Sharp and nhard, not much of a roll or a wave, meaning it was fairly close. Which was good. I could tell it was probably in the low five's. If it had been a long rolling or shaking and rolling it would have meant it was from afar and heavier.
I don't believe in coincidence. Make of it what you will.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2010 - 11:24pm PT
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Psalms
If you ask God, he'll force heathens to be your slaves and help you "dash
them in pieces." 2:8-9\
If you pray to God, he will kill your enemies for you. 9:3-6
The God of peace teaches us how to kill our neighbors in war. 18:34
If you make God angry, he'll burn you and your children to death. 21:9-10
God will shoot his adversaries in the back with his arrows. 21:12
A sweet prayer for the destruction of one's enemies: Let their way be dark and slippery: and let the angel of the LORD persecute them.... Let destruction come upon him at unawares." 35:6,8
God laughs at those that he will later torment. 37:13
If you forget God, God will tear you into pieces. 50:22
If you don't trust in God, he'll kill you and while you're dying the "righteous" will laugh at you. 52:5-7
Referring to his enemies, the psalmist says: "Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell." 55:15
The psalmist devoutly prays: "Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth ... let them be cut in pieces." 58:6-7
The psalmist asks God to kill all "the heathen" and not show them any mercy. 59:5
God will laugh at the heathen as he kills them. 59:8
"The righteous" will rejoice when he sees "the wicked" being dismembered by God. He'll even get a chance to wash his feet in their blood. Now that's entertainment! 58:10
"The God of mercy" will let the psalmist see his enemies tormented. 59:10
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Wes- "Scientist don't have authority to evacuate towns..."
Wes they scared the hell out of everyone with all there talk in regards to the eminent eruption of the huge volcano that Mammoth was sitting on top of. They highly recommended it in the least. There was a sign for a couple of years "Last one out of town turn out the lights." There had been a fairly sizable quake 6.?+ and aftershocks for at least three years from what I recall. They had TOP seismologist and scientist from around the world studying it like it was the next Mt St Helen's.
There results were made known public on a Thursday I believe called "Black Thursday" from then on. You couldn't sell or build a house for years.
I forget the name of the movie, about the volcano in the Pacific NW made in the 90's that erupts in a Mtn. Town. They even mention not wanting to set off a false alarm "like what happened in Mammoth".
EDIT: Referred to it as "the Round Valley Caldera."
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Norton & Ed!
I just want to reiterate...I do have a very high regard for science, I work in the field. All the medical and scientific miracles are wonderful. Where would we be without them. Not communicating on the inter-net...me on a Wifi connection, for even more astounding effect. And I wear contacts etc.
I just wanted to make a point with the Mammoth incident with weschrist. I wasn't disillusioned with science as a result. In some ways "Mammoth was getting to big for it's britches", turning into another Aspen at the time as some suggested afterwards.
Anyway, science is making a big mistake in laying all it's apples in one basket in regards to the proof there is no God via the scientific method/Darwinism.
Jesus said "You are not of this world."
You are looking in the wrong places!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Thanks Base!
It was a crazy time for sure, I had a couple of friends that made out like bandits, they bought $300,0000.00 log homes for $30,000.00. Everyone laughed at them for a year or two or more. The same places were going for over 2.5 million about 5 years ago.
OH Well, long day...my bad!
Sorry everyone!
Trip~
EDIT: Yes, good thing they have it wired well now, no repeat of Mt. St Helens...1 more homerun for science. Hahaha!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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The Earth is a random number generator and Plate Tectonics is a fairly recent science as sciences go and we've only had computers and instrumentation to allow us to begin to understand it all for a very short period of time. We are not capable of predicting earthquakes at this time and who knows, we never maybe able to with any useful accuracy. So what? It's not a problem with science. What people attempt to do with information provided is a policy / political matter. People do their best, including scientists, but no one has much 'luck' predicting random number generators, earthquakes or roulette wheels.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Tall Silos of Iowa
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Here's what you don't get:
It's just a half of step (a baby step, climbers like to say) between (a) taking literally the divinity of Jesus (which is what you do, also what my Grandmother did) and (b) taking literally passages of the Old Testament (which is what the religiously "insane" do, e.g., Scott Roeden, Andrea Yates, David Koresh, Osama bin Laden, al-Zawahiri, the 19 9/11 hijackers...).
It's not so simple.
Cragman- "my Lord being trampled"
Inasmuch as you're a Christian, your Lord is God Jehovah (of the ancient Hebrews). It's not God Amon-Re (of the ancient Egyptians). It's not God Zeus (of the ancient Greeks). It's not Quezalcoatl (of the ancient Mayans). It's not some handsoff deist God that many a physicist speaks of , mostly metaphorically.
For starters, you should identify your Lord. Call him out by name. God Jehovah (aka God Yahweh). So there's less confusion. Your God Jehovah / God Jesus was the Highest Power conceived of by an ancient local desert tribal people. Written up in story form. What Norton, for instance, above, quoted of Him was word for word from the Old Testament. That's truth. That's honesty. That's integrity. That's what your Lord God Jehovah stands for. And it's what the internet-driven info age, at long last, is bringing to the forefront.
Adapt. Verily, I urge, adapt. If you're determined to remain a theist, at least move from a literalist theology to a metaphorical theology. Get real.
Hadrian- Brick by brick.
Gandhi- Be the change you seek in the world.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2010 - 11:57am PT
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TripL7:
A couple of responses to your recent post to me and Ed.
First, you state that "science is making a big mistake in laying all it's apples in one basket in regards to the proof there is no God via the scientific method/Darwinism."
Regarding your above statement:
You are stating YOUR PERSONAL OPINION, carrying no more weight of truth
than just that, your opinion, yet you state it as if is was FACT. NOPE.
"science" has NEVER made the "statement" that there is no god.
And science has NEVER made the case that studying Darwinian evolution
means that there IS or IS NOT, a god.
Science is simply the discovery and logical conclusions from data.
Science in NO WAY concerns itself with, or BOTHERS, to make religious
conclusions about whether there is a god or not. PERIOD.
The evidence is, to most logical people, OVERWHELMING that modern humans
evolved from earlier humans, as they did from earlier "primates".
Now, YOU personally make not LIKE what science tells us about physical
evolution of our humans species because it contradicts what YOU WANT
to believe is the truth based upon YOUR OWN PERSONAL RELIGIOUS BACKGROUND.
BUT, no one, no one, is making the case that human evolution and not
the creation taught in the bible, is "proof" there is not god,
In fact, MANY people, do indeed believe humans "evolved" from primates
some 200,000 or years ago, and those same people also believe that
a god exists who "created" the conditions on earth necessary for human
life to evolve as it did.
SO TripL7, it is NOT science, but it is YOU, who are stating your personal
opinion that god created modern humans just a couple thousand years ago,
and that all scientific evidence and research about who was on this planet
prior to a couple thousand years ago is NOT human.
You are entitled to your opinion, in direct opposition to the logic
that says two plus two equals four.
I, and many others, have a lot of trouble accepting your view of
humans just being created by god a short while ago.
We think your position is not "credible", and certainly not "defensible",
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jstan
climber
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Cman:
"We are hard scarred and hateful." That's a lot of hate right there. would you not say?
It isn't if you accept by definition that YOU do not hate.
You are doing a lot of accepting - when it suits your purposes.
There are people who are not willing to accept what you say. Because they do not you hate them. If you believe everything in your bible you are, in fact, instructed to stone us to death for this. Simply because we do not "believe" as you believe. That is real hate.
That religion of yours has a very sad history in this regard.
We don't hate you. We are just becoming very tired of your impositions upon us.
This thread concerns your wish to make our children targets of your stories and flights of fancy, when they are too young and dependent to call a halt.
You need to stop this. Believe as you wish. But stop what you are doing.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2010 - 12:23pm PT
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I started this thread,
This thread is a continuation thread of my orignal "Creationists take
Another Called Strike" over a year ago.
That first thread was about scientists discovering how salamanders "evolved"
the loss of their eyes over generations while living in total darkness.
The science of species evolution, any species, is vital to our understanding
of how life began, and progressed through billions of years on our planet.
THIS thread is about "Ardi", the name given to a pre modern human being
that is dated at over four millions old, and is the earliest hominid
yet found that confirms its ancestry to us modern humans.
This thread was never intended to "evolve" into the age old argument
of whether religion or scientific discovery is "right" as regards "where"
modern humans "came from" (god creating them two thousand years ago or
scientifically derived data concluding many millions of years "evolution"
So now, Ardi as a MAJOR find is forgotten, and here we are now arguing
whether "biblical faith" or "scientific discovery" should be believed.
No one "wins" that argument, BUT the indisputable fact remains that
we are continually adding to our discovery and "proof" that modern
humans did evolve from beings linked to "Ardi".
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Tall Silos of Iowa
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But don't you dare nuke it, Norton.
Food for thought:
So how can America--bent on innovation in the spirit of the Wright Brothers and Steven Jobs-- get around to it?
--to urging the Muslim world to move from traditional Islam to a more modern renascent (renewed) Islam? from 2,000 year old traditional literalist theology to a more symbolic metaphorical theology-- when so many Americans are traditional literalists, too?
--to identifying the problem as militant theology as part of ancient theology when the latter, ancient theology, also runs thick in the veins of American culture, too?
Anyone besides me discouraged, frustrated, with (when I think about it) the awfully inefficient slow pace of cultural evolution? Like continental drift! Esp in the area of belief discipline practice.
Thank goodness for the info age. Maybe things will speed up measured in generational time (25yr increments). There is hope.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Hey Christians were burning witches a few hundred years ago. Islam will change in time as well, and faster because media is everywhere and it affects culture.
Peace
Karl
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Tall Silos of Iowa
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Karl- "Christians were burning witches a few hundred years ago. Islam will change in time as well, and faster because media is everywhere and it affects culture."
Yeah, where there is a sense of advancement in human cultural evolution over centuries, there is a sense of hope. Thank goodness for it.
I just hope there's enough change before these militant theists-- adamant that they're being obedient to God Jehovah/ Allah-- get the BIG ONE. You know? It just kinda feels like a race against time sometimes.
But here's a kicker. I was talking this over with a evolutionist friend a couple days ago. Even if the militant Muslim world (cf: nonmilitant Muslim world) were to get nuclear bombs and use them, and even if an exchange in the end of it all were to wipe out 1.5 billion people (that's 1500 million people) in a huge "culture wars" war, it would still leave 5 billion on the planet. Life is resilient.
1500 million people-- each and every one of them with a life, a life story, friends and loved ones. Boggles the mind...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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One thing I'm sure of is that in-your-face aggressive and vulgar insults never changed anybody's mind about anything. The question then arises as to what the purpose of this approach is, other than to make the one venting feel superior for a short time and the vented upon martyrs.
A lot of us on this thread have tried to have a reasonable exchange of views and indeed have succeeded and learned a lot. People's minds may not have been changed, but positions have been refined and honed.
Norton's latest reply to Tripl7 about what science is and is not, (#1077555) serves as a great example of this line of thinking and is the kind of reasoning that works in my college classrooms anyway, to slowly open people's minds.
Why can't people be satisfied with that? Why the need of some people to keep reverting to flame thrower tactics?
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jstan
climber
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We have to come to the point where america functions in hyperbole. When overstated positions have no effect or get no attention the next step is obvious. This phenomenon was quite apparent prior to and during the Civil War. I thought it was counterproductive both times.
It was an essential component allowing the slave owners trying to protect their investment in slaves from being taken away. The tactic permitted popular emotion to be stoked to the point of causing those not owning slaves to be wllling to go off and get killed for someone else's benefit.
Loss of rationality seems a common precursor to loss of civil order. If you will, it is preparatory.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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I suppose one could look at the current culture wars as the South's revenge for losing the Civil War. They have certainly managed to skew national politics toward the religious right.
Some futurists have indeed predicted that the U.S will eventually break up into smaller more governable units with Hawaii, Washington, Oregon, California and Nevada comprising a new country.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Tall Silos of Iowa
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Yeah, it's time we got around to it:
Distinguishing between (a) religion with its reliance on archaic supernaturalist doctrines and (b) spiritual belief discipline -- those spiritual belief discipline models and practices that base themselves on science (scientific wisdom), life guidance and life strategies -- and are all about spiritual development, in other words, spirit building, in a tough world. -A tough world that happens to have pressures-- natural pressures-- set against us.
I, for one, practice a spiritual belief discipline (a) that's science-based, (b) that's not scientology (!), (c) that doesn't have a scintilla of supernaturalist belief or supernaturalist doctrine in it.
Keep the faith / trust: This ages-old conflict is resolvable. It will resolve. Now that we've entered this internet-driven information age. New models for spiritual development and life guidance are right around the corner. And they won't be called religions.
Yeah, and in time, they will be institutionalized in culture. And they will have their faults like all institutions do due to the human factor. But they won't have any supernatualist hueypoo in them, they'll be free of all the bronze-age ignorance that's an obstacle in the paths to greater science education and better living.
P.S. Thanks Carl Sagan. For your early-on inspiration. In the tough years.
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