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roadman
climber
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Jan 26, 2010 - 10:34pm PT
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So learn .........
fool! Fooling yourself chump. yank it a little more and let's see what you squirt out next....
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jstan
climber
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Jan 26, 2010 - 11:15pm PT
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“If your heart is HARD, you will NOT allow God to draw near to you.”
That's a tough word but an interesting use of anatomy. Perhaps this medium can be useful.
Shall we try?
Believers think our hearts are hard.
We non-believers suspect your heads are soft.
Someone who stares at just one book and wears a robe telling me how to vote, for reasons at which I can only guess?
Please explain why you want this?
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jstan
climber
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Jan 26, 2010 - 11:23pm PT
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So how do you feel about the fundamentalist churches, complete with tax exemptions, taking sides in political campaigns?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 26, 2010 - 11:38pm PT
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Except when he's busy killing everything in sight.
Bipolar bugger that he is.
If he really was.
Which he's not.
G'night, all.
Eternity waits.
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roadman
climber
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Jan 27, 2010 - 01:13am PT
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cintune, You clearly have no concept of the heart of God.
Your rants are inane and reek of hate.
Dude don't you mean "heart of gold" that's more like it with all the bull sh#t ornamental stuff that you;ll worship.
You guys need to pull your heads out. Study up on the history of how your religion came about. It's got a very well beaten path from above the bulkans montheistic ideas spread etc.....
"reek of hate" that's a good one... you should put that on a tee shirt! ha
so much BS no concept? no concept? do you really think that dude has no concept of Love? that's the f*#king heart of your god right? he knows love dude so pull your head out.
What;s the deal with the dude who posts all the scrips!!!??? I mean really?
Really in the game of life it's all about finding the peace in you. Ya know? I think that us folks here on this rantathon.... are all doing just fine... and the poor broke ass folks out there to busy workin', scrapin just to put food on the table those folks.......pray to god everynight there kids will have a better life than them.
I digress. Funny that the only thing I care about is the integrity of science and the teaching of the foundations of it so that we can continue to allow people to discover the wonders of nature in there purest! Really I think it's just dandy that folks pray to a dude in the sky or wherever? I'd personly think that you'd want someone in the dirt/earth seems to me I'd make my story up with some cool dude who's cool and kind and loving and lives in this majical place called Yosemite.... a place so grand and aeswome that once you see it you know then and there that you are in heven or dam close.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 27, 2010 - 01:34am PT
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777, Wes may have asked rudely, but I have asked politely many times, and only one person has bothered to answer seriously, and his answer was "I don't know." Most others just dodge the question or give "clever" (Werner) answers that are insulting and without meaning.
I don't doubt you, I don't hate you or disrespect you. I'm not trying to make fun of you. I don't want to change your beliefs. But there is a fundamental problem with religion that I have never been able to resolve, no matter how I approach it, so I ask...
If God is capable of creating the entire universe, and so loving that he gave his only begotten son, then what am I to think when a serial killer tortures a child for days? Or when an earthquake kills over 100,000 in Haiti (with many of them taking days to die)? Or...
But no one here ever answers. Except John Moosie who said he didn't know, and Werner who tells me I'm to stupid to understand.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 27, 2010 - 02:47am PT
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Ghost- "There is a fundamental problem with religion that I have never been able to resolve..."
I here ya Ghost. The Israelites and every other religion before and after them has had the same questions. And that's why God sent his Son, and His Son said that He would send His Spirit to us. Began at Pentecost, they had locked themselves in the upper room, in fear...
Listen, it is not religion that God desires you to join etc. It is a personal relationship. Man had it as perfect as it could be in the Garden of Eden, and he chose self. Just as Satan did, "I will be like the most high"
Satan to Eve, "Surely you won't die, you will be like the most high."
God didn't destroy Satan because then all the remaining angels would have served Him out of fear, not love.
Likewise with Adam and Eve. God desires to be loved. Not to much to be asked.
"To know Him is to love Him." I can testify to this.
He won't force you to know Him. Kind of defeats the whole thing.
When man fell, and we all would have done likewise(does He have to take you back and have you and every individual go through the G. of E. experience?) No. Look at your own life/heart, the world. Look at kids from a young age...don't touch that.
What was delegated/given to man(the world)was by man given to Satan...
It is late and this has all been covered by myself and the other Christians/posters here over the last 6 or so months Ghost.
Like I was saying it is about a relationship, between you and Jesus Christ, ask Him if He is who He said/says He is that you want to know Him. Ask Him into your heart. That is all the faith it takes. An honest question with an honest promise. He will show you. He is very capable of it.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 27, 2010 - 02:49am PT
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Ghost all the answers have been given.
Still you insist on blaming God himself for all your faults.
That's insulting onto him.
You want everything handed to you on a nice platter, the way you want it.
Doesn't work that way.
Will you clean the toilet for 108 years before you get a reply?
A bonafide seeker will do just that for 10,000 years.
The non bonafide seeker will just bitch and moan and leave.
That's why a real master is so rare .......
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 27, 2010 - 03:01am PT
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Ghost- "Earthquakes...serial rapist."
I just gave the best short answer I have to you and wes up thread. And like I/we said we don't have all the answers.
I was fortunate to come to know Him at a young age. He did choose to intervene in my case and I walked away from a serial killer(according to his son and daughters).
If I had gotten to the age of eighteen without that experience, I would have probably been much like many of the atheist/agnostics that post here. It was grace that saved a wretch like me. Plain and simple. After all that God has revealed to me over the years, and as much as I have denied/failed to obey Him, it is a miracle that I even exist.
And like I said, I don't know all the answers...I do know Him and how much He loves and grieves for the lost.
EDIT: I wish I would have spent more time following Him, rather than my own selfish desires. Then maybe I would have the answers to the questions you ask Ghost.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 27, 2010 - 03:56am PT
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If God is capable of creating the entire universe, and so loving that he gave his only begotten son, then what am I to think when a serial killer tortures a child for days? Or when an earthquake kills over 100,000 in Haiti (with many of them taking days to die)? Or...
Ghost, I am sure you are aware that this question has been considered by deeply religious yet at the same time highly intelligent theologians. If you are looking for a good answer on ST you may be out of luck, but reasonable answers do exist.
The question was addressed quite early in the excellent guide Catholicism for Dummies. The gist was that free will is important to God, therefore people have choice in how they behave, and some choose to behave badly. Does that not partly answer your question?
I think the larger question is usually addressed more or less as Karl did, by saying that the purposes of God will never be fully understood by mere humans. A scale problem. We can't see the big picture. Something like, as jstan found somewhere, that without earthquakes life might not be possible on Earth.
The guy who wrote The Probability that God Exists agreed that natural disasters are strong evidence against what he called "a personal caring God who listens to and answers prayers."
I agree, too.
I am sure the Catholic Church has a position on the issue but don't know what it is.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 27, 2010 - 04:09am PT
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Oh, "free will" is being recycled again. That explains the death of a 5 month old child crushed by the rubble of a collapsed building? I'm always fascinated by how that works. I'm sure Werner will claim they made bad choices in a previous life, but that really doesn't work from the christian side of things. With no bad choices carried forward from past lives it's just a 5 month old kid crushed under a building for what reason? This is exactly where the whole free will argument collapses as well. Free will, gods' will - or maybe sh#t just happens. Maybe plate tectonics just happen in the nature of planets like ours. Maybe a 100k people just died for no reason of their own whatsoever.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 27, 2010 - 04:15am PT
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Free will has no plausible connection I know of with natural disasters, only with man's inhumanity to man.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 27, 2010 - 04:53am PT
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So if it wasn't 'free will' that killed the kid, then what is god's responsibility in the matter? None? Idle bystander? Jester? Just flipping channels at a bad time? If the kid didn't die due 'free will' (in this life or any other) or some aspect of living in the universe that god 'delegated' to man, then isn't it still on god? And if so, for what purpose? Or is this where men simply retreat to "god works in mysterious ways"?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 27, 2010 - 06:39am PT
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As a sequel to the review of a book by Barbara Smith discussing the debate on religion and science which was published in the New York times last week and noted on this thread by Ed, the author of the book has published a reply to the many comments given on the NYT web page.
One of the author's comments was this:
"This tendency to belief-persistence is well illustrated in the back-and-forth celebratory descriptions of science and pious invocations of the truth of one or another religion that swell the comments on Fish’s column. Such celebrations and invocations are typically accompanied by long lists of the crimes of religion and the glories of science or (in equally long lists) vice versa. What is notable here is that no position in these seesaw exchanges is ever changed. No one is enlightened; no one is converted".
http://community.nytimes.com/comments/opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/25/science-and-religion-lives-and-rocks/?sort=oldest&offset=2
Sound familiar? So will most of the comments if you read through them though they are considerably more intellectual and New Yorkish than those appearing on this thread.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 27, 2010 - 07:22am PT
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I guess it's all a matter of, and difference in, just what your beliefs are founded upon.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 27, 2010 - 11:12am PT
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I've only read the last couple pages in this very long thread. As far as I'm concerned they speak to the fact that Americans are as theologically illiterate as they are scientifically illiterate.
Ghost- what's your background in science and engineering? I ask because they're the best tools for building yourself models for (a) how the world works and (b) how life works.
They're your tools for "what is" in terms of facts. There are two other components to a modern belief system. "What matters" and "what works". They're up to you to figure out and work into models that work for you.
What is your aim, interest? If you're soul searching, what is it you seek? (I don't think your aim is just to argue endlessly with Christians or Muslims most of whom are so theologically illiterate they don't even know or care that their God Jehovah or Yahweh was a local God like Zeus or Marduk and just as false.)
WBraun I learned from another thread is just a bag of hot air-- at least in regard to science, engineering, philosophy, etc. -- so don't give him any mind on these matters. Don't know about the rest.
The people who throw out terms like god, spirit, free will, belief, faith and don't explain to others what they mean by their use will argue in circles forever. Don't get stuck in it. Move on.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 27, 2010 - 12:33pm PT
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No one does ever change their mind. That, I think, was never the intention of this thread. The intention of this thread was that we change our behavior.
We need, to the extent possible, to be able to conduct our personal lives unaffected by the personal belief systems of others. I think those following some of the belief systems voiced here, do not agree with this.
In other parts of the world people having different personal belief systems have in the very recent past been going out every night to kill "the others."
How dramatic does this problem have to become before we decide it is serious enough to cause us to change our behavior?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 27, 2010 - 12:55pm PT
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It is late and this has all been covered by myself and the other Christians-posters here over the last 6 or so months Ghost.
Well, no, it hasn't all been covered. Leaving aside the usual internet forum nastiness, there has been some interesting discussion here, but the question I asked above has not been carefully addressed. It's been asked, by me and others, but as far as I know, no one has addressed it head on. So I thought I'd give it one last try.
As Andy said, the subject has been considered over the centuries by highly intelligent theologians. I've read much of that consideration, but never yet seen a convincing argument for worshipping a god who would allow a child to be tortured. Note that this is not the same thing as saying "There is no god" or "all spirituality is nonsense" or "Christians suck." Merely that I find it repugnant for any being -- human or godly -- to willingly allow innocents to suffer. And to say "Well, we humans aren't capable of understanding the ways of God, so just worship Jesus and don't worry about the kid dying under the rubble" is, to me, a complete cop-out.
However, contrary to Werner's assertions, my mind is open. So I thought I'd ask the question here. I know we're just a bunch of smelly climbers, not "highly intelligent theologians" but maybe that wouldn't matter. Maybe someone here would have something new to say.
But it appears not. Thanks anyway to those of you who gave it a shot -- both for trying, and for being civil.
I'm off to post pictures in the "Routes at Index" thread.
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Jan 27, 2010 - 12:58pm PT
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"Seems like everywhere I go,
the more I see the less I know,
but I know one thing that I love you."
Michael Franti
We know some things in our heart that don't make sense to our head, because our head doesn't have all of the information that it needs.
We see that it's grey.
"It's a mouse!"
"No, it's an elephant!"
This is our condition, that we've created(?)
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 27, 2010 - 01:32pm PT
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"Intelligent (Abrahamic) theology" in the 21st century is a contradiction of terms. Traditional theology is now a "discredited discipline" in institutions of higher learning. Religions and their conceptual foundation (theology) are no longer "institutions of higher learning." That they are not speaks volumes.
What Cragman posted above is narrative-- it is story-- it is not reality. It is not a true representation for how the world works or how life works. For that, turn to the science model.
Teaching one's kids that the Christian "narrative" is more than story, that it is an authentic representation for "how the world works" is child abuse. That is the stance emerging among the educated. Mine, too.
According to the traditional Christian narrative, (a) this world is a three-layer cake (heaven, earth, hell), (b) a ghost inhabits the living organism. This is bronze-age ignorance. Bronze-age ingorance that over centuries was weaved into story and institution. Don't fall for it. Challenge yourself to see beyond it.
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