Occupy Wall Street Thread Reposted

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Mangy Peasant

Social climber
Riverside, CA
Oct 11, 2011 - 03:04pm PT
I think somebody should actually go and read what Adam Smith really said.



Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 11, 2011 - 03:06pm PT
Corporations are people, my friend.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 11, 2011 - 03:12pm PT
EVERYTHING Fattrad says is rooted in FEAR.

FEAR that someone wants to take something away from him.

The very core of modern conservatism is this same FEAR.

FEAR that the black woman in Detroit will spend her welfare money on drugs.

And that welfare money comes out of their tax dollars paid.

FEAR

SOME of that fear IS justified, but the pure childish ignorance is using that fear to justify their own selfishness, especially at the expense of people who truly do need help.


as John Kenneth Galbraith said:

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. ...
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Oct 11, 2011 - 03:20pm PT
Turn that LASD heat ray on yer fat ass fattrad! Don't you know people are starving in Africa? They'd appreciate a couple of well done flank steaks you meanie...
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Oct 11, 2011 - 03:36pm PT
This may be simplistic, but is it not the case that after a company issues stock under an IPO - that is basically the last time that company receives funds for it's own stock.

From that point forward, the stocks are bought and sold back and forth between a small percentage of fat white rich guys who have figured out how to make money both ways.

No one else appears to benefit outside of this small pool of "investors".

While I have no issue with white guys selling paper one day and buying it the next - I do wonder how and why this "system" has come to represent the basis of our overall economy.

They produce no product, provide no service, enlighten the country in no discernible way other than ensuring their personal wealth.

I can see the selfishness that pisses people off.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 11, 2011 - 03:41pm PT
@Brandon-
Riley, isn't it a strange concept? That people would care so much more about themselves as to throw everyone else under the bus?

This selfish concept has always been lost on me.

I find it puzzling too, but perhaps "last-place aversion" explains at least some of it:

Never mind the top, avoid the bottom

Instead of opposing redistribution because people expect to make it to the top of the economic ladder, the authors of the new paper argue that people don’t like to be at the bottom. One paradoxical consequence of this “last-place aversion” is that some poor people may be vociferously opposed to the kinds of policies that would actually raise their own income a bit but that might also push those who are poorer than them into comparable or higher positions. The authors ran a series of experiments where students were randomly allotted sums of money, separated by $1, and informed about the “income distribution” that resulted. They were then given another $2, which they could give either to the person directly above or below them in the distribution.

In keeping with the notion of “last-place aversion”, the people who were a spot away from the bottom were the most likely to give the money to the person above them: rewarding the “rich” but ensuring that someone remained poorer than themselves. Those not at risk of becoming the poorest did not seem to mind falling a notch in the distribution of income nearly as much. This idea is backed up by survey data from America collected by Pew, a polling company: those who earned just a bit more than the minimum wage were the most resistant to increasing it.

Poverty may be miserable. But being able to feel a bit better-off than someone else makes it a bit more bearable.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:01pm PT
Corporations are people, my friend.
\

yeah brandon,

like steve jobs = apple....
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:02pm PT
80% of wall streets traffic today,
will be in stocks the owners sold within 10 seconds


thats not trading
thats looting


is it legal?

what prevents you from doing it?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:04pm PT
It is sad that I consider my family lucky.
4 kids
Husband works full time for minimum wage and no affordable benefits (health insurance would cost more than his monthly gross pay)
We qualify for food stamps and housing assistance
We live paycheck to paycheck
But at least we have food and shelter.
We are locked into a single income because child care would absorb a second income (plus some)
We do not have credit cards and drive a car that is over 10 years old because we don’t want payments.
Neither myself or my husband have been to the doctor or dentist in over 5 years.
I am in a community college (for Computer Science) and I am fortunate that a Pell Grant covers my tuition and books. But I can see that it is a useless degree.
I fear that the programs that feed us and keep us in a home will be cut soon

let me get this straight....someone has 4 kids but only has the education/training/experience/motivation to get a minimum wage job?

and its the wealthy peoples fault? really? you are not serious are you?
Gary

climber
Desolation Row, Calif.
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:13pm PT
let me get this straight....someone has 4 kids but only has the education/training/experience/motivation to get a minimum wage job?

and its the wealthy peoples fault? really? you are not serious are you?

He's serious as a heart attack. That's how capitalism works, amigo.

This is long, but an interesting read. I ask forgiveness in advance.

We never traveled together at all, you know, since the kids been little they've
always known that I vanished from their lives periodically. And they never
really had any idea of what it is that I do. What do I do? If I don't know
why should they?

Yeah, Brandon, the fourteen-year-old, he got to travel with me, during the
summer. But we got a chance to talk to each other as adults, you know, as - well - as adults, instead of just father and son. We left Boston - we were headed up to the Left Bank Cafe in Blue Hill, Maine - and Brandon, just above Marble Head, turned to me and he said, "How did you get to be like that?"

It's a fair question.

I knew what he meant, but he didn't have all the language to say exactly what he meant - what he meant to say was: "Why is it that you are fundamentally alienated from the entire institutional structure of society?"

And I said, "Well, I've never been asked that, you know. Now don't listen to the radio and don't talk to me for half an hour while I think about it." So we drove and talked - we were on Highway 1 because it was pretty and close to the
water. Got up toward the Maine border and there was a picnic area, off to the side some picnic tables. It was a bright, clear day. So I pulled into their parking lot; we sat down at the picnic tables, and I said, "Now, sit down, I want to tell you a story, cause I've thought about it."

So I sat down and said, "You know, I was over in Korea." And he said, "Yeah, I've always wondered about that, did you shoot anybody?" And I said, as honestly as I could, "I don't know. But that's not the story," I said, this is what I was telling him:

I was up at Kumori Gap there by the Imjin River. There were about seventy-five thousand Chinese soldiers on the other side and they all wanted me out of there, with every righteous reason that you could think of. I had long since figured out that I was the wrong person in the wrong place at the wrong time for the most specious of reasons.

But there I was - my clothing was rotting on my body, every exotic mold in the world was attacking my clothing and my person, my boots had big holes in them from the rot. I wanted to swim in the Imjin River, and get that feeling of death, that feeling of rot off of me. The Chinese soldiers were on the other side; they were swimming, they were having a wonderful time. But there was a rule, a regulation against swimming in the Imjin River. I thought that was foolish, but then a young Korean fellow - cartworked for us as a carpenter - by the name of Young Shik Han. All of his family had been killed off in the war.

Well, he said to me in what English he had, "You know, when we get married
here, the young married couple moves in with the elders, they move in with the grandparents. But there's nothing growing, everything's been destroyed. There's no food. So [when] the first baby's born, the oldest, the old man, goes out with a jug of water and a blanket and sits on the bank of the Imjin
River and waits to die. He sits there until he dies, and then will roll down the bank and into the river, and his body will be carried out to the sea. And we don't want you to swim in the Imjin River because our elders are floating out to sea."

That's when it began to crumble for me, you know. That's when I, well, I ran away, and not just from that, I ran away from the blueprint for self-
destruction I had been handed as a man, for violence in excess. For sexual
excess, for racial excess. We had a commanding officer, who said of the G.I. babies fathered by G.I.'s and Korean mothers that the Korean government wouldn't care for so they were in these orphanages, and he said: "Well, as sad as that is, someday this'll really help the Korean people cause it'll raise the intelligence level." That's what we were dealing with, you know.

So I ran away. I ran down to Seoul City, down toward Askom. Not to the Army. I ran away to a place called the Korea House. It was a Korean civilians' [group] reaching out to G.I.'s to give them some better vision of who they were than what we were getting up at the divisions. And they hid me for three weeks. Late one night - I didn't have any clothes that would fit me - late one night, it was a stormy, stormy night, the rain falling in sheets, I could go out, cause they figured no one would see me. We walked through the mud and the rain - Seoul City was devastated. And they took me to a concert at the Aiwa Women's University. Large auditorium with shell holes in the ceiling and the rain pouring through the holes, and clyde lights on the stage hooked up to car batteries. This wasn't the USO, this was the Korean Students' Association.

The person that they invited to sing - I was the only white person there - the person that they invited to sing was Marian Anderson, great black operatic soprano who had been on tour in Japan, you see. There she was, singing "Oh Freedom" and "Nobody Knows the Trouble I've Seen." And I watched her through the rain coming through the ceiling and thought back to Salt Lake [City].

My father, Sid, who ran the Capitol Theatre - it was a movie house but it had been an old vaudeville house and he wanted to bring back live performances back to the Capitol - in 1948 he invited Marian Anderson to comed and sing there. I remembered we went to the, to the train station to pick her up and took her to the biggest hotel in town, The Hotel Utah, but they wouldn't let her stay there, because she was black.

And I remembered my father's humiliation and her humiliation, as I saw her
singing in there, through the rain. And I realized right then, I said,
"Brandon, right then I knew that it was all wrong, and it all had to change. And that that change had to start with me."

*

I learned in Korea that I would never again in my life abdicate to somebody
else my right and my ability to decide who the enemy is.

Got back from Korea; I was so mad at what I'd seen and done I wasn't sure I
could ever live in the country again. I got on the freight trains up in
Everett, north of Seattle, and kind of cruised the country for two years makin' up songs, but I was drunk most of the time and forgot most of those.

I'd heard that there was a house in Salt Lake City by the roper yards... where there was a clothing barrel and free food. So I, I got off the train there. I was headed for Salt Lake anyway.

I found that house right where they said it was, but most of all I found this, this wiry old man, sixty-nine years old. Tougher'n nails, heart of gold, fella by the name of Ammon Hennacy. Anybody know that name? Ammon Hennacy? One of Dorothy Day's people, the Catholic workers, during the Thirties they started houses of hospitality all over the country; there're about eighty of 'em now.

Ammon Hennacy was one of those; he'd come west to start this house I'd found called The Joe Hill House of Hospitality. Ammon Hennacy was a Catholic anarchist, pacifist, draft-dodger of two World Wars, tax refuser, vegetarian, one-man revolution in America - I think that about covers it.

First thing he said, after he got to know me, he said: "You know you love the country. You love it. You come in and out of town on those trains singin' songs about different places and beautiful people. You know you love the country; you just can't stand the government. Get it straight." He quoted Mark Twain to me: "Loyalty to the country always; loyalty to the government when it deserves it." It was an essential distinction I had been neglecting.

And then he had to reach out and grapple with the violence, but he did that
with all the people around him. These second World War vets, you know, on
medical disabilities and all drunked up; the house was filled with violence, which Ammon, as a pacifist, dealt with - every moment, every day of his life. He said, "You got to be a pacifist." I said, "Why?" He said, "It'll save your life." And my behavior was very violent then.

I said, "What is it?" And he said, "Well I can't give you a book by Gandhi - you wouldn't understand it. I can't give you a list of rules that if you sign it you're a pacifist." He said, "You look at it like booze. You know, alcoholism will kill somebody, until they finally get the courage to sit in a circle of people like that and put their hand up in the air and say, 'Hi, my name's Utah, I'm an alcoholic.' And then you can begin to deal with the behavior, you see, and have the people define it for you whose lives you've destroyed."

He said, "It's the same with violence. You know, an alcoholic, they can be dry for twenty years; they're never gonna sit in that circle and put their hand up and say, 'Well, I'm not alcoholic anymore' - no, they're still gonna put their hand up and say, 'Hi, my name's Utah, I'm an alcoholic.' It's the same with violence. You gotta be able to put your hand in the air and acknowledge your capacity for violence, and then deal with the behavior, and have the people whose lives you messed with define that behavior for you, you see. And it's not gonna go away - you're gonna be dealing with it every moment in every situation for the rest of your life."

I said, "Okay, I'll try that," and Ammon said "It's not enough!"

I said: "Oh."

He said, "You were born a white man in mid-twentieth century industrial
America. You came into the world armed to the teeth with an arsenal of
weapons. The weapons of privilege, racial privilege, sexual privilege,
economic privilege. You wanna be a pacifist, it's not just giving up guns and knives and clubs and fists and angry words, but giving up the weapons of privilege, and going into the world completely disarmed. Try that."

That old man has been gone now twenty years, and I'm still at it. But I figure if there's a worthwhile struggle in my own life, that, that's probably the one. Think about it.

I'd always wanted to write a song for that old man. He never wanted one about him - he's that way - but something mulched up out of his thought, his anarchist thought. Anarchist in the best sense of the word. Oh so many times he stood up in front of Federal District Judge Ritter, that old fart, and he'd be picked up for picketing illegally, and he never plead innocent or guilty - he plead anarchy.

And Ritter'd say, "What's an anarchist, Hennacy?" and Ammon would say, "Why an anarchist is anybody who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do." Kind of a fundamentalist anarchist, huh?

And Ritter'd say, "But Ammon, you broke the law, what about that?" and Ammon'd say, "Oh, Judge, your damn laws the good people don't need 'em and the bad people don't obey 'em so what use are they?"

Well I lived there for eight years, and I watched him, really watched him, and I discovered watching him that anarchy is not a noun, but an adjective. It describes the tension between moral autonomy and political authority, especially in the area of combinations, whether they're going to be voluntary or coercive. The most destructive, coercive combinations are arrived at through force.

Like Ammon said, "Force is the weapon of the weak."
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:13pm PT
One of the things that makes stock valuable is the ability to sell it. If Wall Street stock trades were outlawed for whatever reason the Occupiers desire, it would inhibit the ability of any other public companies to raise capital in IPO's or otherwise.

I could add comments about how we will desperately need more investment as my Baby Boomer generation retires and spends the rest of our lives disinvesting, but the anti-Wall-Street/Capitalism/Capital/Business/"Rich"/White/Whatever-else-they're-against probably don't care.

john
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:14pm PT
Presumptuous to assume that the four children came BEFORE and not AFTER the supposed economic preplanning of deciding on children.

We do not know the lineage of the facts to assume anything like that.

All we know is she, like the tens of thousands protesting, are feeling personal frustration.

They see the very rich getting richer, and they see themselves, largely through no direct "fault" of their own, feeling more and more helpless, screwed, and therefore disenfranchised.

They are not asking for anything, no official "demands" have been made.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:19pm PT
i am all for feeding children. i also believe in the same medical treatment for all, even possibly socialized medicine and NO insurance as we would all be covered.

anyone who has 4 kids without a very good job and security is a moron. sorry. you have to take a test for a drivers license, any moron can have a kid.
Gary

climber
Desolation Row, Calif.
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:23pm PT
The crime, Hawkeye, is that someone can have a full time job, be a productive member of society, and not be able to feed, clothe and shelter a family.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:28pm PT
Haweye, how do you know that she DID have a job and "security" BEFORE and/or after she chose to have children?

I don't see how anyone could know this fact from reading her post.
Sh#t happens in life, often AFTER one properly plans the future.

IF your point is she should not have had children many years ago because she did not have a job or a reasonable future at that time, I happen to agree 100% with you.

But that is not the case here, because we cannot know the time line of facts.

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:28pm PT
i agree. its a crime for some lazy ass moron who has not planned their life well enough that they bring 4 children into this world that they can't afford. while they were busy making babies perhaps they should have planned on just how much money those kids would cost then got the education/experience/motivation in order to pay for those kids.

sorry guys, thats they way it works. 200 years ago if you were not a good enough hunter the kids starved to death. and while i am NOT advocating that, something has been lost in evolution. if you want a good job then you damn well better be motivated to get one. why should corporate amreica be responsible for that? their motivation is simple. money. if a worker can make them money then they will hire the worker. if you can't afford 4 kids then keep it in your pants.
TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:37pm PT
If you want a good job then you damn well better be motivated to get one.

I'll remember to tell that to a few of my out of work/underpaid buddies...they must not be motivated!

EDIT: Fvck, I didn't know it was that simple! Thanks for clearing that up!
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:38pm PT
So the the kids should just starve
Because the parents can't get a well paying job

Thats what the 1% believe
I reject it
we can do better

Thats so pathetic
and at the same time, some millionaire is scoring another million off paying cheap labor

we should feed them. and i hope they are ashamed to get food stamps as that means that some hard working stiff who did plan properly is helping to pay for their lack of vision on how much it costs to bring kids into this world.

did someone prevent you from being a millionaire and hiring cheap labor? if those cheap laborers had valuable skills they would not be cheap! duh.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:41pm PT
what are your friends skills kingsbury? climbers? skiers? carpenters?

i suppose that they want a good paying job and they want to stay in Montana too? a state that is notorious for low paying wages. i would love to work and live in MT but i cant afford too. i have to go where the job is.
TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:46pm PT
Not just Montana. I know plenty of folks on the east coast, Midwest and in CA that are hurting. Lots of them college educated. I guess they are all lazy though...

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