Discussion Topic |
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This thread has been locked |
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 4, 2011 - 03:39pm PT
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I'm going to paste that whole dang thread here (if it works) I don't appreciate it when threads get nuked after hundreds of post when the OP has a whim to destroy it. I figure that it's an important phenomena in our society at this point, which is mostly being covered on the net by the people and often ignored in the mainstream press, so I take it as my duty not to ignore it here
So without further adieu
+++++++
cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 2, 2011 - 11:37am PT
This could be the start of more to come...
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 2, 2011 - 11:41am PT
What's their beef?
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 2, 2011 - 11:42am PT
I don't know. I've been looking for information. Almost seems bigger in the minds of the participants than anyone else. I have friends in NYC who haven't been saying much about it and they are usually quite active in such things.
It sounds like a worthy protest and I would like to know more details. Best of luck to them... hope it gains momentum.
Marines on Wall Street
http://www.in5d.com/occupy-wall-street-the-marines-are-coming-to-protect-the-protestors.html
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 2, 2011 - 11:43am PT
What are they protesting?
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 2, 2011 - 11:44am PT
y o u
Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
Oct 2, 2011 - 11:44am PT
Chaz, I'm guessing that this will be lost on you, but it seems as if their main problem is the super wealthy putting profits above their fellow humans, and screwing us in the process.
:)
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 2, 2011 - 11:46am PT
and the corporate influence in politics
We the Corporations of the United Stocks of Uhmerikuh
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 2, 2011 - 11:48am PT
So, what do they intend to do about it?
ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
Oct 2, 2011 - 11:50am PT
clearly, they are protesting The Man
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 2, 2011 - 11:51am PT
Protest, genius.
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 2, 2011 - 11:51am PT
They are protesting Wall Street's "obsession" with what they consider outrageous profits,
and all done by manipulating paper that is ultimately "secured" by the work done by the middle class, as in massive mortgage backed derivative trades all backed by common folk making their mortgage payments on time.
They are protesting the rich shareholders against the middle class "struggle".
They are protesting the trillion dollar TARP "rescue" of Wall Street while main street got no bailouts.
ETC
Unlike the Tea Party, THIS citizen uprising is indeed truly and honestly grass roots.
It receives no corporate startup or continuing funding, as the Koch Bros and Tea Party.
This grass roots effort could have real legs, especially as the Class Warfare, the inequity of held wealth in this county, continues to grow and grow and grow, highlighting the us against them divide.
All just my opinion, of course.
Rokjox
Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Oct 2, 2011 - 11:52am PT
Shut down Wall Street.
Anonymous, understood to be a loose-knit group of internet activists, tweeted: "We are glad to tell you that mastercard.com is down and it's confirmed."
Another message read: "There are some things WikiLeaks can't do. For everything else, there's Operation Payback."
Mastercard was not immediately available to comment but repeated attempts to load the site met without success.
So-called distributed denial-of-service (DDoS) attacks also appeared to have been launched against PayPal, PostFinance, and the Swedish prosecutors office.
"We can confirm that there was an attempted DDoS attack on paypal.com," a spokeswoman said.
"The attack slowed some payments down for a short while but we remained fully operational throughout."
DDoS attacks, which are illegal in the UK, involve overloading a website with requests so it stops working.
"While we don't have much of an affiliation with WikiLeaks, we fight for the same reasons," the Anonymous group said in a statement on its website.
"We want transparency and we counter censorship...
Similar stategy, different tactics, and coordinated or not...
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 2, 2011 - 11:52am PT
I agree, this is the tip of the iceberg.
These clowns honestly think they can protest their way into the pockets of others. That they can get around taking people to court and proving they have been damaged.
They have no case. They have nothing other than to make themselves nuisance and whine about it in public.
If they were serious, and they really were damaged by rich people like they claim ...then they would have a case. But, unfortunately, they weren't damaged as they claim so they squander their time and ours with nonsense protest.
We have laws and the associated remedies in this country. We should demand the protestors use them just like the rest of us have too.
If they have been damaged as they say. Take the perp to court. Get out of the streets and quit hurting people that have nothing to do with the "so called" damages.
Skip
Timmc
climber
BC
Oct 2, 2011 - 11:58am PT
They appear to be non partisan- thought the right wingers will feel most threatened.
I respect their right to protest and wish them luck.
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 2, 2011 - 12:00pm PT
skipt, pull the elephant size tea bag out of your mouth and wake the fuk up.
Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
Oct 2, 2011 - 12:04pm PT
Skip, I can only assume that you believe the protest is about our recent financial woes.
IMO, the last couple of years are the proverbial straw. What I'm reading suggests the vocal support of a major paradigm shift in how we conduct business as usual.
Rokjox
Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Oct 2, 2011 - 12:04pm PT
Government simulates cyber attack for training
Reuters
Idaho Falls: The lights went out. Hackers had infiltrated the chemical company's computer network. The firm's own experts ran around from computer to computer trying to fight back and regain control. "We're flying blind," the chief executive of the fictitious ACME chemical company said. The cyber attack exercise was part of a week long training program that the Department of Homeland Security offers to industries to help them learn how to deal with intrusions into their computer networks.
The exercise is carried out in Idaho Falls where the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) has programs focused on cybersecurity for industries, in partnership with the Idaho National Laboratory, which conducts nuclear research and also has expertise in the technology used by many industries. The city with a population of about 55,000 is surrounded by potato farms, has an airport with one baggage carousel, and a dairy that still delivers milk to homes. DHS is concerned about growing cyber threats to industries and conducts the training exercise about once a month. The sessions, aimed at raising awareness about how to deal with a real cyber attack, have been attended by representatives of the energy, oil and gas, and transportation sectors, among others.
Maybe I got tangled up in some wash from somehting like this.
Internet wouldn't let me onto three banking sites last night for hours. Other stuff worked OK. SLLoooowwww screens.
rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Oct 2, 2011 - 12:06pm PT
Skipt...I think they are protesting keeping the wealthy out of their pockets...Activities like exhorbitant credit card interests , inflated grocery costs , energy supplies...Activities like supressing middle class wages...I'm glad we still have the right to protest injustices in America , a constitutional right...RJ
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 2, 2011 - 12:07pm PT
We are all tea partiers now.
Our government has let us down.
Skip
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 2, 2011 - 12:10pm PT
When the rich get money from the tax payers, it is "good for the economy."
When the tax payers get services from the rich paying an equal share of taxes it is "class warfare" and "socialism."
When skipt posts anything, it is pure idiocy.
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 2, 2011 - 12:16pm PT
People do not appreciate this riot nonsense. They want to be left alone and allowed to do business with people they want.
The only monopolies are those granted by government.
Skip
Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
Oct 2, 2011 - 12:18pm PT
It ain't a riot, bro.
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 2, 2011 - 12:28pm PT
Why aren't they protesting Obama and Solyndra??? How about GE?
Dodd and Barney Frank?
Eric Holder and Fast and Furious?
Oh yeah, that's o.k......
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 2, 2011 - 12:30pm PT
cuz yer a fuking moron, that's why.
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 2, 2011 - 12:30pm PT
Because they can't tell the difference between hating the game, and hating the player.
Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
Oct 2, 2011 - 12:34pm PT
Occupy Wall Street has been dubbed the largest gathering of highly educated people in opposition of something. Or some such moniker.
When wicked smart people feel this passionately about something, it would do us some good to listen to what they have to say, whether we agree or not.
It ain't a partisan issue, it's an issue of respect.
Lolli
Mountain climber
We lose ourselves in work to do and bills to pay
Oct 2, 2011 - 12:35pm PT
We are all tea partiers now.
Our government has let us down.
Skip
That Royal "we" again... isn't that very odd indeed?
I thought Americans were republicans.
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 2, 2011 - 12:37pm PT
What's their solution to the problems they're spotlighting?
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 2, 2011 - 12:38pm PT
I thought Americans were republicans.
No, we're conservatives. And hence the revolt known as the Tea Party.
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 2, 2011 - 12:40pm PT
A glimpse into the protests;
http://zombietime.com/day_of_fail/
losers. All of them....
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 2, 2011 - 12:40pm PT
This ain't a riot bro'
This ain't a matter of rich people "stealing" money ... bro'
If it was you all would have a case. You don't.
I can assure you that point will be brought up over and over.
Because, if it is good enough for victims of violence to have to take people to court in order to seek remedy, then it is good enough for a bunch of rioting bozo's.
Skip
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 2, 2011 - 12:41pm PT
cutting edge blurring... a blog from a Sept 17th event... you've out done yourself.
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 2, 2011 - 12:41pm PT
The Banksters virtually bring down the world economy, using LOTS of fraud and dangerous techniques in the process, and NOBODY goes to jail and there's hardly any criminal investigation.
Some people non-violently protest that and Hundreds are arrested or cited.
And some of you squarely blame the protesters.
You are cuckholders
The Bankers broke plenty of laws. They are negotiating for immunity from state attorney generals as we speak. Why do that if you are innocent? No accountability, no personal or corporate responsibility. They got HUGE government bailouts and still aren't living up to their side of the bargain by loaning again.
but yeah, all that responsibility speech from the GOP is just for poor people
cuckholders
Peace
Karl
Edit
Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
Oct 2, 2011 - 12:42pm PT
WE are a nation made up of immigrants who have a wide range of opinions on a myriad of topics. Not, as Bluering says, a nation of conservatives.
rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Oct 2, 2011 - 12:43pm PT
The Tea Party...Puppets on a string ...A front for the Koch bros cajoling the financially oppressed to protest taxation of the elite...A noble cause...
spidey
Trad climber
Berkeley CA
Oct 2, 2011 - 12:47pm PT
This is a link to their first "official statement"...
http://getgrounded.tv/2011/10/02/grounded-news-first-%E2%80%98official%E2%80%99-statement-from-the-occupy-wall-street-movement/
Jim Brennan
Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 2, 2011 - 12:47pm PT
Bluering,
As a well known supporter of the people in uniform, can you emphatically state they don't feel cheated for their service ? Iraq and Afghanistan were about oil acquisition. even arch Republican Greenspan admitted that on retirement.
Maybe people really getting shot at for principles would like the reason to be valid.
Jim
Rokjox
Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Oct 2, 2011 - 12:51pm PT
WEll then, you'll want to see this.
A message from anonymous about the wall street protests.
http://ampedstatus.org/a-message-from-anonymous-concerning-occupywallstreet-and-the-bankers-video/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hOit6CzX6M8
V for President!
Lolli
Mountain climber
We lose ourselves in work to do and bills to pay
Oct 2, 2011 - 12:59pm PT
I thought Americans were republicans.
No, we're conservatives. And hence the revolt known as the Tea Party.
Bluering, do you really mean that? :-D
You're not a republican?
You know, if you don't believe in the republican idea, the Brits do have a monarchy. I guess they're the best choice, the other monarchies would be too... too leftist for you, I'm pretty sure.
The Brits might have people opposing to public protest marches, you'd have a hard time to find that in the other monarchies. It would be considered quite normal to protest against Wall Street. It's called "free speech" over here, you see.
Don't know much about Tonga though, they have a monarchy too, btw.
spidey
Trad climber
Berkeley CA
Oct 2, 2011 - 01:00pm PT
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/30/occupy-wall-street-protests-new-york_n_989221.html
Occupy Wall Street: NYPD Arrests 700 Protesters On Brooklyn Bridge [LATEST UPDATES]
Occupy Wall Street
Hundreds of people protesting Wall Street abuses were penned in and arrested by police Saturday, two weeks into an ongoing demonstration that has become known on Twitter as #OccupyWallStreet.
Centered at Zuccotti Park since September 17, the gathering that began as a call to arms from anti-consumerist magazine AdBusters has shown no sign of a slowdown.
The movement aims to "express a feeling of mass injustice," according to the group’s declaration for the occupation of New York City released Friday. The injustices include the foreclosure crisis, work place discrimination and student loan debt, among a list of others.
As HuffPost reported recently, the movement is less about specific policy demands and more about an expression of opposition to ever yawning economic inequality driven by Wall Street and its allies in Washington.
Calling themselves an American revolution, the protesters say they plan to stay in the park indefinitely.
Greg Basta, an official with New York Communities for Change, said that the organizers were encouraged by police on Saturday to march on the street area of the Brooklyn Bridge, instead of the walkway, then subsequently arrested them for marching in traffic. Two lead organizers, Jonathan Westin and Pete Nagy, were penned in by police. Westin managed to exit the police pen, but Nagy is missing and presumed detained by police, Basta told HuffPost.
"Police say some demonstrators spilled onto the roadway Saturday night after being told to stay on the pedestrian pathway," the Associated Press reported.
Similar demonstrations started Saturday in Washington and Los Angeles.
Shon Botado, a protester staffing a first aid station in New York, told The Huffington Post on Friday that he’s not leaving “until change is made to the financial structure.”
Ron Anderson
Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.
Oct 2, 2011 - 01:02pm PT
maybe,,,just maybe,, its the start of something good in this country.
khanom
Trad climber
The Dessert
Oct 2, 2011 - 01:03pm PT
Don't hold your breath. Like all dissent in recent times, it will be suppressed.
Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
Oct 2, 2011 - 01:10pm PT
Ron, I sure hope this gains momentum.
Again, it's not a partisan issue, some here have blinders on in regards to the news. It IS NOT a political issue, it's more broad than that.
It seems to be about fairness and accountability and I hope it is about empathy for your fellow man trumping greed.
Lolli
Mountain climber
We lose ourselves in work to do and bills to pay
Oct 2, 2011 - 01:13pm PT
I hope too it does gain momentum.
There's so many who have lost their homes, lost their jobs, have no health care, lost their retirement funds, while jobs have been outsourced and profits and personal bonuses have gone through the roof. They play not only with Americans, they play with world economy too.
spidey
Trad climber
Berkeley CA
Oct 2, 2011 - 01:20pm PT
Here is a look at the protest in action...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fockzr7rXys#!
Jim Brennan
Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 2, 2011 - 01:25pm PT
In Canada, banks are allowed to loan 7 times more than the assets they hold. This is conservative compared to the amounts loanable that only exist through gambling on people paying on time(same as Canada) in the USA.
If free enterprise was truly free, the institution you put in and borrowed your money from would prosper or fail on their ability to perform.
khanom
Trad climber
The Dessert
Oct 2, 2011 - 01:29pm PT
I can't believe so few cops stopped that group of protesters. In some other countries they would have just steam-rolled the cops and kept right on going.
To me this says a lot about our seriousness. I just don't think we have the conviction to really act.
I mean people are getting killed in protests in the middle east and we let one line of a couple of dozen cops stop a column of thousands?
It's embarrassing!!
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 2, 2011 - 01:31pm PT
I haven't seen any footage of the protesters being violent. What is the official justification for the arrests? How many tea baggers got arrested? What if these protesters had shown up with loaded guns?
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 2, 2011 - 01:34pm PT
Yeah, it's an inherently profitable business if you don't get super greedy.
A bank sells you a CD for $100,000 and pays 1/2 % interest on it these days. From that deposit they can loan out S1,000,000 of computer generated money for a mortgage and charge 5% on that money. 5% of 1,000,000 is $50,000 and to earn that they only had to give out $5,000 plus their overhead.
Nobody else has that sort of profit margin. It's only by leveraging, fudging and fooling dangerously that they can't make their business a cash cow, which it is, except the CEO don't want to take cuts in their multi-million dollars salaries to pay for bad calls they made trying to make ever greater profits
peace
Karl
Edit
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 2, 2011 - 01:35pm PT
Weschrist,
They didn't listen to the cops. That's why they got arrested.
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 2, 2011 - 01:36pm PT
We didn't listen to the British, that's how we got America
Edit
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 2, 2011 - 01:37pm PT
tsssssss!
Seems like the police orders to disassemble a peaceful demonstration contradicts the Constitutional Right to Peaceably Assemble. For reference, that is the one that comes BEFORE the one about guns.
So let me get this straight... conservatives with a history of rants about killing Obama can "peaceably assemble" with loaded guns and signs about niggers, but liberals can't peaceably assemble if it contradicts an order by one person with a gun and pepper spray?
Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Oct 2, 2011 - 02:50pm PT
"if they earned less bonus incentives in new contracts than the year before, then they got none of it."
That statement makes absolutely no sense, Cleo.
Did they earn less bonus, receive fewer incentives to sign contracts, or sign fewer contracts?
I have worked for and with consulting engineering firms and have not found your statement (confusing at it is) true for most companies in my industry.
Lolli
Mountain climber
We lose ourselves in work to do and bills to pay
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:07pm PT
The police must have a reason to act, I assume? I assume that not even in the USA a police officer can behave as he pleases? Since it's one of the basic rights to demonstrate in a democracy, wouldn't that be a pretty serious offence, to act without a cause?
It's rather stupid by the police to stop a march if it's peceful. If enough people feel that their justified right to express their opinions are thwarted, it will too easily turn into violence instead. Hopefully numbers will grow, so it will be a real civil rights movement.
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:14pm PT
All the usual suspects on this thread screamed at the top of their lungs for years telling us that Obama was the answer to all this Wall Street Greed.
We tried to tell them that no politician of any party will ever stop this. That the real answer is to limit government so that they don't have the power to hand over trillions of our dollars to greedy people.
But, they said we were wrong. They said what we needed to do was give more and more power to government. And more money to wall street. After all we were having a global meltdown.
Obama got to even lead the charge.
Now these same clowns want to cover all that up. They want to tell us they have the answer all over again. That what we need to do now, is give more power to government (Gee, who could have predicted) so that they can take other American's stuff without providing them due process.They tell us that it's because the rich didn't act fair.
More to the point: These same clowns don't offer the same due process they demand terrorists get.
These Obama drones flat out do not get it.
They always have an answer. And, it always involves either giving Government all power. Or telling us that anarchy is the only answer.
Give it up, drones.
You look foolish.
Skip
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:19pm PT
be afraid be very afrAID
FOR THIS IS A SMALL SAMPLE OF THINGS TO COME
or not.
just load up the 12 gauge and buy a big bag of bisanti rice,
Jim Brennan
Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:21pm PT
Skip,
What does this have to do with Obama or even Bush ? It has more to do with enforcing the law. The law is not being applied to a sector of criminal behavior that includes a revolving door for lucrative jobs as private pirates or federal overseers.
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:24pm PT
Gee Jim,
I have been saying that if a case could be made feel free to make it.
I was told over and over on this thread that I didn't understand what I was saying.
Now you back up my point.
Thanks.
Skip
Lolli
Mountain climber
We lose ourselves in work to do and bills to pay
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:27pm PT
It's quite easy to be caught up in the political threads.
I better stop.
:-)
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:31pm PT
I don't care what we do, as long as we don't interfere with the current tax breaks for the rich... that would be Socialism, or Marxism, or Communism, or something.
Jim Brennan
Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:31pm PT
Skip,
your points can rise or fall on their own merits.
Unfortunately for your thing about less government, less government (no enforcement of law) is why whole scale rip offs are explained away as just economic bad luck. You know, unsophisticated investors and all the other pablum criminals feed people.
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:35pm PT
We need the government to determine which Dr's go to jail for removing which rapidly reproducing cells in a woman's body... as long as they don't tell corporations which toxic chemicals they can dump into waterways, which endangered species they can harvest to extinction, what they can pass off as "food," and what taxes they pay... that just wouldn't be fair.
Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:37pm PT
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:19pm PT
be afraid be very afrAID
FOR THIS IS A SMALL SAMPLE OF THINGS TO COME
or not.
just load up the 12 gauge and buy a big bag of bisanti rice,
Don't forget the bath salts.
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:45pm PT
The people organizing these protests are using people and their passions for nothing more than a fundraising event.
Skip
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:46pm PT
that makes sense.
Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:47pm PT
OK, here's an example of how I conduct business.
I recently finished a project where I was building a playground for a local nonprofit. We bid on it at a discounted hourly rate. We finished early and below budget. The three of us that were equal partners on the project took the dividend on the bid and gave it back to the nonprofit as a charitable, tax deductible donation.
I made exceptional money despite the intentional pay cut, and managed to give a cool thousand dollars back to the community center.
Not sure if this fits into this conversation, but I suspect it does.
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:51pm PT
+1 for doing business that way Brandon, especially for a non profit
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:55pm PT
you can not buy a country,
you have to earn it,
what that means is beyond my comprehension,
niners win again, wtf?
lucy, you have some splainin to do,
ricky retardo
late nite hero for insomniacs, methodists, narco snorters, you name it, we got it at rays chowder house,
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:59pm PT
Unfortunately for your thing about less government, less government (no enforcement of law) is why whole scale rip offs are explained away as just economic bad luck. You know, unsophisticated investors and all the other pablum criminals feed people.
Jim,
Your argument rests on the fact you cannot comprehend the difference between less government and no government.
Just because we can agree that government has its legitimate purpose does not mean we have to agree on all things past that point.
Skip
EDIT: Dr. Sprock, white face jive is disgusting....
Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 2, 2011 - 04:01pm PT
ST full of smart theory flies out the window when I read the first few of this thread today...
They (the protesters) are calling themselves the 99%.
They are calling for equality.
Good source of information so far has been Democracy Now.
http://www.youtube.com/user/democracynow
For more on the occupy wall street story:
http://www.youtube.com/user/democracynow#p/a/u/0/RSvutn9aNKE
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 2, 2011 - 04:09pm PT
Brandon is a better example of how to go about helping one another.
Certainly much better than taking rich people's stuff without due process.
I suggest we all take his example. Start making a difference on our own.
We can even have a motto:
WE can DO IT!!! Yes WE Can!!! WE don't need government to tell us what to do!!!
Skip
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 2, 2011 - 04:13pm PT
The people organizing these protests are using people and their passions for nothing more than a fundraising event.
Holy sh#t skipt, yer on a roll! What do you expect, after Fux News had such a great success with Tea Baggers?
Certainly much better than taking rich people's stuff without due process.
How about gambling on derivatives, taking tax payer money to give executives bonuses, and spending millions on lobbyists to make sure nothing changes? That seems to be working for the corporation funded Rupert Murdoch/Fux News "grass roots" Tea Bagger movement.
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 2, 2011 - 04:19pm PT
Ok I give up.
Just exactly WHO is behind these protests?
Who is this organized group that rounded up the protestors?
And who exactly are the people or organization that will get this "funding"..
And where does this funding come from?
Honestly, I have been reading everything I can find, and can't see answers to the above.
Edit: one more question: the names of rich people that these protestors have taken money from illegally, as in without due process, please?
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 2, 2011 - 04:20pm PT
Norton, Michael Moore and Al Gore started it.
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 2, 2011 - 04:20pm PT
How did Michael Moore and Al Gore have money taken from them by these protestors without due process?
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 2, 2011 - 04:22pm PT
They didn't. They just hate our freedoms.
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 2, 2011 - 04:30pm PT
Ah, got it now, thanks Wes.
I would have thought ACORN was behind the protestors.
Or more likely Anchor Babies.
Jim Brennan
Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 2, 2011 - 04:56pm PT
Skip,
No where did I imply less government equals no government. Where there is less government there has to be less governing and in some instances, no oversight. The con artists always rise to these occasions when an industry is allowed to snow authorities into thinking they are worthy of self regulation.
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 2, 2011 - 05:02pm PT
blue collar anarchy is on the way
Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 2, 2011 - 05:04pm PT
Brandon-
Your post above is exemplary and commendable of your business model. It is, on the face of it, fair and equitable for both parties (though, taking a look from a purely capitalist standpoint you may have walked backwards naked through a corn field)….
You have to understand that this/your standard is not the standard for the current/recent, and past business model…. Greed is.
And that is the problem.
That seems to be the reason for the failure of the American model.
That seems to be the reason for the failure of America.
And that seems to be the reason for the occupy wall street.
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 2, 2011 - 05:08pm PT
Norton writes:
"I would have thought ACORN was behind the protestors."
A.N.S.W.E.R. is.
http://www.answercoalition.org/la/
Same thing.
cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Oct 2, 2011 - 05:15pm PT
There is a huge number of Americans who simply don't realize that they've been victimized by Wall Street – that they've paid inflated commodity prices due to irresponsible speculation and manipulation, seen their home values depressed thanks to corruption in the mortgage markets, subsidized banker bonuses with their tax dollars and/or been forced to pay usurious interest rates for consumer credit, among other things.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/occupy-wall-street-drawing-the-battle-lines-20110927
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 2, 2011 - 05:26pm PT
"This Monday, 5pm, in Los Angeles there will be an emergency Mass March in Solidarity with the Wall Street Protesters who were arrested and those brutalized by New York City Police."
I'm going to be occupied by a pork taco around 5pm tomorrow... unless something else materializes.
oh...
http://www.occupytogether.org/
Rokjox
Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Oct 2, 2011 - 05:50pm PT
Did any of you click the second link after the link I posted? the one where V explains the goals and strategy of the Occupy WS?
Its labeled as being from Anonymous. and explains the crowd control methods the police will use, the kinds of clothing and equipment you should bring, and how to defend or "de-arrest" someone.
But I didm't see a way to link it seperate.
I kinda think it cute. An organized protest for a decentralized purpose.
Can dissent be coming back? Dissent is a mean social weapon when the right man can realize it. Abbie Hoffman was an ultimate poweer center, because of his sense of humor in planning events. THere were others.
I wonder who is Anonymous ...
nature
climber
back in Tuscon Aridzona....
Oct 2, 2011 - 05:53pm PT
Good luck with the march.
They will get Tooled.
the Pigs will f*#k up.
The pigs won't be held accountable.
same sh#t, different state.
not use to it?
and the fat ones will just shoot you....
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
Oct 2, 2011 - 05:59pm PT
The "stopped clock" got it correct today.
http://www.infowars.com/occupy-wall-street-protesters-call-totalitarian-government-re-election-of-obama/
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 2, 2011 - 05:59pm PT
Chaz, please try to understand that ACORN was a community benefit organization that received Federal Funding, and OccupyWallstreet receives no Federal Funding, and appears to be without "sponsors" or ANY funding.
Do you understand therefore that ACORN is not similar to OccupyWallstreet?
I honestly cannot see how in the world you could come that conclusion.
Perhaps you will list the very specifics of the similarities of their respective origin, organization, funding, and degree of true grass roots spontaneity?
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
Oct 2, 2011 - 06:06pm PT
Norton, this has been in the works for at least two years now. Andy Stern (SCIU), other ex ACORN functionaries and a host of both anarchist and communist organizations have been planning it for several years. There's even audio tape from the planning meetings last year and early this year.
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 2, 2011 - 06:14pm PT
TGT,
Can you direct me to the Communist organizations involved with this protest?
Just a quick link detailing their involvement, thanks.
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 2, 2011 - 06:16pm PT
It's like Canadians don't read their own words:
No where did I imply less government equals no government.
Here are your words:
Unfortunately for your thing about less government, less government (no enforcement of law) is why whole scale rip offs are explained away as just economic bad luck
"less government (no enforcement of law)"
No Jim. You didn't "imply less government equals no government" you flat out said it in all its glory.
Skip
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 2, 2011 - 06:18pm PT
Norton writes:
"Can you direct me to the Communist organizations involved with this protest?
Just a quick link detailing their involvement, thanks."
Here you go, Norton:
http://www.answercoalition.org/la/
Lolli
Mountain climber
We lose ourselves in work to do and bills to pay
Oct 2, 2011 - 06:22pm PT
nature,
you make it sound as were you a third world dictatorship country. Voices brutally beaten down, as a protest in China.
Do you really believe it will be what happens?
Rokjox
Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Oct 2, 2011 - 06:26pm PT
Synergistic, decentralized, unrelated scamming and planning, Skippy.
Timelines converging, but without cellular interactions.
Groups don't know when, but at the right time, North Korea and Syria will add their teams to the internet convergence, strengthening the effect of the DOS that wipes out our silly banker owned coin of the realm, the Chase-Banko'merica electron. No backbone, no bank, no bank, no commerce, no currency (greenbacks) in circulation, no accounting systems in the cloud, for however many days they can keep the run going.
Bankers are insufficient to maintain an electronic currency security, and guaranteeing the success of the nations security that the currency represents. The government is required to be the backer of the currency. Its time they moved into the 21th century and secured our nations new electronic system of everyday trade, by nationalizing it and putting it under the Dept. of the Treasury. If anyone is going to make a percentage tax off of every dollar spent in common trade, it should be the US Government,(that is the ONLY agency that is allowed to lay a general fee of such magnitude) and be used to run the other stuff.. The bankers have appropriated a governments function, and it was not recognised at the time.
By the right people...
((It makes sense if you don't think about it...))
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 2, 2011 - 06:41pm PT
Who is SCIU?
Morons.
There's even audio tape from the planning meetings last year and early this year.
Great, where's the link?
I have audio tape of your mom.
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 2, 2011 - 06:42pm PT
Ok TGT and Chaz,
I have read the link, it is simply a news account of the protests from a minor media source, and calls on readers to do likewise.
I don't see anything proving the assertion that Communist are behind the protestors.
The link is not helpful in this regard as it says nothing about that.
But you directed me to you as if it did.
Perhaps you can give me the direct link from a major credible source to read where you personally learned of Communist involvement?
Jim Brennan
Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 2, 2011 - 06:56pm PT
Skip,
To clarify:
Less government can and does sometimes lead to no enforcement of law. That was the intention of what I wrote.
Now, if you're a fan of industrial self regulation, I hope you weren't choking on some of that delicious bagged salad that was poisoning people a while ago...
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 2, 2011 - 07:00pm PT
Jim,
I don't have a clue as to what the hell you are talking about.
First you tell me that what I mean by "less government" means "no regulation" which it doesn't.
Then you tell me that what I mean by "less government" means "self industrial regulation" which it doesn't.
What more can you get wrong?
Honestly, if you want to know what I think you need to ask.
Skip
Jim Brennan
Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 2, 2011 - 07:13pm PT
Ok Skip, I'll ask.
What do you think about the political and social relationships between employees of the SEC and employees of various Wall Street institutions ?
Cintune's link up thread is a good start concerning the journalism of Matt Taibbi. You don't have to like Taibbi, but his writings about Wall Street can be very illuminating.
Jim
Jim Brennan
Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 2, 2011 - 07:21pm PT
I said "if you are a fan of industrial self regulation". That's different than stating you are a fan.
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 2, 2011 - 07:23pm PT
Less Government = Less Cronyism
I think the relationship between Wall Street and Washington is way to cozy.
I support less government that focuses on real regulation and less cronyism.
Repeal Dodd-Frank NOW!!!
Skip
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 2, 2011 - 07:32pm PT
Chaz, where is the link between COMMUNISM and the wall street protestors?
TGT?
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
Oct 2, 2011 - 07:35pm PT
Less Government = Less Cronyism
Whatever vacuum less government creates will be filled by private enterprise. Private enterprise has its share of cronyism.
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 2, 2011 - 07:42pm PT
Moose,
Your argument gets us nowhere.
If you are doing business with someone you don't like it is for 1 of 2 reasons.
Either you are stupid. Or, you are forced.
And, since I don't think you are stupid, I will ask you who is forcing you...
Skip
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 2, 2011 - 07:51pm PT
Chaz, where is the link between COMMUNISM and the wall street protestors?
TGT?
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
Oct 2, 2011 - 07:56pm PT
There are plenty of reasons one doesn't have much choice of who they do business with. And lots of circumstance that don't require government to provide the force.
The only options I have for high speed internet are ATT and none.
Is ATT forcing me to use them? Nope.. But my only other choice is dial up, and that aint high speed internet. I don't have an angle on satellite from my house. I could from across the street, but satellite is 3 times as much as I am paying.
So what kind of choice is that?
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 2, 2011 - 08:27pm PT
FAIL
as usual
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Oct 2, 2011 - 08:41pm PT
Whatever vacuum less government creates will be filled by private enterprise
Yep. I think you are really onto something there!
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 2, 2011 - 08:48pm PT
There are plenty of reasons one doesn't have much choice of who they do business with. And lots of circumstance that don't require government to provide the force.
The only options I have for high speed internet are ATT and none.
Is ATT forcing me to use them? Nope.. But my only other choice is dial up, and that aint high speed internet. I don't have an angle on satellite from my house. I could from across the street, but satellite is 3 times as much as I am paying.
So what kind of choice is that?
John, do you use cellular access (g3-g4) or do you use cable?
Skip
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 2, 2011 - 09:02pm PT
wall street and communism?
who is manipulating stock,
china?
no way,
right?
i better say goodbye before i cry
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 2, 2011 - 09:21pm PT
The real reason Dr. Sprock cries is because his whitey tighty ass is showing.
He takes his cue straight from the KKK.
"Let's all put on black face and do the shuck and jive together."
What a dope....
Skip
Rokjox
Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Oct 2, 2011 - 10:13pm PT
Some of you guys don't seem to appreciate how unique these protests are. They are similar to the g-whatever protests of the last few years, but his is pointed directly at American big banking business.
Not the Army, not the political conventions, its a modern and recent backlash at what people have perceived as financial risk engendered by the Big money boys, we used to trust a little more...
I kinda like it, its cute.
I will like it even more if it becomes a little MONSTEROUS protest. Its what we need. Wisconsin for Washington DC.
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 2, 2011 - 10:56pm PT
some people get rich, others eat sh#t and die
it is a generation of swine out there
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 2, 2011 - 11:05pm PT
Let's all put on black face and shuck and jive in concert.
Come on, Dr. Sprock does it. So, it must be OK.
Skip
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 2, 2011 - 11:17pm PT
your right, time for an avatar update
howa bout a baby's arm holding an apple, would you like to see that?
google tommy lee
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 3, 2011 - 01:20am PT
Dr. Sprock,
Would you like to see your mentor
Google Nathan Bedford Forrest.
Skip
Lolli
Mountain climber
We lose ourselves in work to do and bills to pay
Oct 3, 2011 - 04:02am PT
Credit: Lolli
khanom
Trad climber
The Dessert
Oct 3, 2011 - 07:56am PT
That was then... And Lennon's words aren't as relevant. "They" know how to handle non-violence perfectly. The NYPD has it down.
But how would the react to people who actually stood up to them? I wonder.
FortMental
Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Oct 3, 2011 - 07:59am PT
Your argument gets us nowhere.
Thank you SkipT for arguments that do! Every "Occupy Wall Street" protester deserves a Congressional Medal of Honor for having the balls to do something no one is willing to do to save American civilization from itself.
You want to kill this movement? Hand every protester a free i-Pad. Guaranteed instantaneous lobotomy.
squishy
Mountain climber
Sac town
Oct 3, 2011 - 08:00am PT
Occupy Sacramento 1st meeting...protest is planned for the 6th...oh yeah!
There were tea baggers and progressives ready to help..
Lovegasoline
Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Oct 3, 2011 - 09:19am PT
That was then... And Lennon's words aren't as relevant. "They" know how to handle non-violence perfectly. The NYPD has it down.
But how would the react to people who actually stood up to them? I wonder.
I wonder what would have happened if when confronted with arrest, the thousand(s) of protesters on the Brooklyn Bridge immediately sat down and tightly locked arms with one another in one huge inseparable knot?
One benefit of the arrests is that although they have been protesting and marching en mass for weeks, the mainstream media has deliberately avoided reporting it. The mass arrests yesterday has got the media engaged and got you all talking about them. That in itself is a measure of success for the protesters. They now have the nation's attention. Let's see what the next step is.
fattrad
Mountain climber
GOP Convention
Oct 3, 2011 - 09:30am PT
Now ordering up the LASD "Heat Ray" to handle the crowds.
The evil one
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 3, 2011 - 10:20am PT
What are they protesting FOR
ANSWER: Other people's money.
What do they have to LOSE
ANSWER: Their Union benefits
Skip
EDIT: This was in response to Dingus who pulled his post.
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 3, 2011 - 11:07am PT
After a few days of banging drums and annoying locals, the Wall Street protests have finally incurred the wrath of New York City. Around seven hundred were arrested over the weekend and Mayor Bloomberg has spoken ominously about clearing the streets. They’ve put on a good show but the general feeling is that they’ve failed to engage a sceptical public. Given the scale of America’s economic and political crises, this is surprising. But then the protesters and their message are doomed to fail. There’s something oddly un-American about both.
Polls show that more than two-thirds of Americans think corporations and banks have too much power. They are correct. For example, liberal commentator Sally Kohn points out that “members of the congressional supercommittee charged with reaching a bipartisan deficit reduction solution have received $41 million from the financial sector during their time in Congress … At least 27 current or former aides to supercommittee members have worked as lobbyists for financial sector interests.” Congress has become a trading floor upon which influence is bought and sold for the price of a campaign donation. It’s about time someone kick started a revolt.
But the Wall Street protesters are the wrong crowd to do it. This photo, of a lady sitting next to a sign titled “Corporate Freeloaders!” while having her photograph taken with an IPad, goes to the heart of the problem. Never trust the political rhetoric of young white hippies: it is undermined by their fabulous wealth and their complete detachment from reality. They travel the world from riot to riot – a cause on every continent, a ring in every orifice. They might have the diet of a North African peasant, but these spoiled brats are professional agitators financed by a generous trust fund.
One thing that is especially irksome about their movement is its pleasure seeking. This protest, like countless others, has been described as having a “carnival atmosphere”. Doesn’t that seem a little less than revolutionary? During the Red Scare of 1919-1920, America was torn apart by union strikes and anarchist bombs. Clashes between labor and nationalist mobs in Cleveland, Ohio were only broken by mounted police. Two people died, forty were injured and 116 were arrested. Compare that grim, cheerless struggle for workers’ rights with this report from the Wall Street protests, which briefly swelled when it was announced that Radiohead would be playing in Zuccotti Park: “While hundreds of people have camped out overnight in the plaza during the two-week old sit-in for social change, an online announcement that Radiohead was en route jammed the plaza. “I actually think it's kind of ridiculous,” said a dreadlocked 20-year-old who identified himself as Pigpen. “The only reason 500 people are here is because they think Radiohead is going to be here.”” Radiohead’s appearance turned out to be a hoax and the crowd dispersed. According to the New York Daily News, “Organizers were red-faced.”
The protesters’ bigger problem is that the Credit Crunch has discredited the Left as much as the Right. Both sides have taken money from Wall Street and both sides have contributed to its financial nosedive. In 2008, Barack Obama gathered more money from hedge-fund and bank employees that he did from any other group. His appointments in office were lifted straight from the very financial institutions he spent the election criticising. Under his administration, the Federal Reserve gave $3.3 trillion in bailout money to overseas corporations without asking what the cash was for. American liberalism has become a byword for monopolistic capitalism. It supports Wall Street and big manufacturers by guaranteeing that they won’t go under. It simultaneously delivers billions of dollars to contractors, public service workers and welfare recipients as part of a strategy that is laughingly called Keynesian. As The Commentator has noted, across the Western World it is the ham-fisted, interventionist Left that is to blame for our economic woes by messing with the natural cycles of the free market. Capitalism doesn’t need to be abolished. It needs to be unleashed.
Compare the aimless Wall Street protesters with the folksy savvy of the Tea Party. The Tea Party was started by ordinary folks who hate the corporations just as much as they hate the government. They have experienced the nightmare of foreclosure, or of a chain store opening across the street and killing their trade. They know that the bailout was driven by financial lobbyists, and they hate every congressman who voted for it. They are what the novelist Chilton Williamson once called, “Country and Western Marxists”. What differentiates them from the Wall Street protesters is culture. They are recognisably American in their ideals and appearance. And they get that the American people don’t want to see the free market curtailed by yet another social democratic contract. Best of all, the Tea Party won’t take to the streets to get what they want. They understand that the path to reform of Wall Street begins at the ballot box. The Tea Party represents an American vision of the future. The Wall Street protesters are a horrible reminder of its past mistakes.
Gary
climber
Desolation Row, Calif.
Oct 3, 2011 - 11:09am PT
What are they protesting FOR
ANSWER: Other people's money.
What do they have to LOSE
ANSWER: Their Union benefits
Skip
This only shows how manipulated and totally clueless you are, skip. Start thinking for yourself with an open mind, stop letting Rush Limbaugh do your thinking for you.
Jim Brennan
Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 3, 2011 - 11:16am PT
A suggestion Skip.
If you are going to revisit posts, it should be for grammatical reasons only. It's frustrating to reply to your ideas when you reconstruct a former post after the fact.
If you have more to add, just post it. Backtracking is like some weird, expedient time machine.
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 3, 2011 - 11:17am PT
Barrack Obama got more money from Wall Street and Hedge funds than any other group.
Now he sends his Union Thugs out for another shakedown.
It's time for real Americans to take their country back from stupid trust fund liberals.
Skip
fattrad
Mountain climber
GOP Convention
Oct 3, 2011 - 11:17am PT
Now ordering up the LASD "Heat Ray" to handle the crowds.
The evil one
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 3, 2011 - 11:18am PT
If you are going to revisit posts, it should be for grammatical reasons only.
Asswipe,
As much as you want to enact your slave holding mentality it won't fly.
You don't make the rules.
Skip
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 3, 2011 - 11:24am PT
They've come by the hundreds all accross America to protest Wall Street, and they wonder why the world doesn't stop what we're doing and immediately do what they ask, whatever that is.
Sorry -- been there, done that. I was a student at Berkeley from 1969-73. We thought we had a monopoloy on intelligence, and couldn't understand why we weren't running the world. It never occurred to us that our observation about who wasn't running the world might contradict our assumption about our superior intelligence.
John
Jim Brennan
Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 3, 2011 - 11:26am PT
Name calling....
Any way, If you want your logic taken seriously, don't be revisionist.
Slave holding mentality ? Huh? You rightly called me on not being clear. Can you accept your written imperfections ?
CrackAddict
Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
Oct 3, 2011 - 11:30am PT
You have to understand that this/your standard is not the standard for the current/recent, and past business model…. Greed is.
And that is the problem.
That seems to be the reason for the failure of the American model.
That seems to be the reason for the failure of America.
And that seems to be the reason for the occupy wall street.
This is a very naive argument. First of all, do you really think greed just came into existence in the last few years? The problem is that the Government has completely distorted the incentives in the markets. In regards to the financial industry, Banks used to take in money from depositors, and loan it out to people who used it to buy houses, etc. They were VERY careful about who they loaned it to, because it was their money. THAT was greed! What we have now is a system where Banks don't even want deposits, because they can borrow money from the Treasury that they don't have to insure, at near zero rates, and then buy Treasury bonds with it. Banks still make some home loans, but they are quickly stamped with the Government's seal of approval so they are insured by Uncle Sam. Who cares what happens to them after that? It's no longer their money.
The problem is not greed. The Founding Fathers knew enough about human nature to factor that into our system. The problem is distorted/mismatched incentives.
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 3, 2011 - 11:32am PT
Nicholas D. Kristof offers advice:
http://video.nytimes.com/video/2011/10/02/opinion/100000001084589/advice-for-the-wall-street-protesters.html
Thanks
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 3, 2011 - 11:34am PT
Jim,
I really don't care what you think.
Honest, I don't.
You hound and hound me. You demand I respond to your incessant nonsense. All the while you put words in my mouth I don't say.
It is ridiculous.
BTW, how much did you pay in American Income tax last year?
Why is it you think your opinion is worth more than those who do?
Skip
Bruce Kay
Gym climber
BC
Oct 3, 2011 - 11:40am PT
Skipt, awesome essay. I especialy liked all that stuff about "natural cycles of the market" and "unleashing capitalism". That last up natural cycle we had back in 08 was pretty sweet but then the liberal interventionists must have done something and that why we are riding this natural down cycle which isn't so sweet but we now know that unleashing capitalism once again will cure everything.
I did notice one small typo which i took the liberty of fixing for you:
Compare the aimless Wall Street protesters with the folksy suckers of the Tea Party.
your welcome - any time i can be of help
Rokjox
Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Oct 3, 2011 - 11:41am PT
Skippy:
WOW: That post above about how lame and un American and Un-Tea-party the Occupy wall Street guys are set me to wondering where it came from.
I copied the first paragraph and looked for exact matches. On first blink, it looks like that shows up 266,000 times, in all manner of blogs, news services, forums and other places where people read bullshit propaganda.
That is the OFFICUIAL ANSWER to the Occupy Wall Street, and so far, I dom't even see an atribution. Where did the original verbiage come from, and who?
Edit: I got it down to abou 16 sites, although that thing looks plagerized about 10 times...
fattrad
Mountain climber
GOP Convention
Oct 3, 2011 - 11:42am PT
Turn them to french fries:
http://sheriff.lacounty.gov/wps/portal/lasd/!ut/p/c4/04_SB8K8xLLM9MSSzPy8xBz9CP0os3hLAwMDd3-nYCN3M19LA0_nEDPvMJMAQ39jA_2CbEdFAFVdgp4!/?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/wps/wcm/connect/lasd+content/lasd+site/home/home+top+stories/aid+unvealed
I worked a couple of shifts with Bob Osborne.
The evil one
Jim Brennan
Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 3, 2011 - 11:43am PT
Hound you ? That's funny.
How about reply to you and try to understand your point of view. If I thought you were a joke,I'd just ignore it. I've said many times that I simply like good ideas, be they right or left.
What would be appropriate ? getting all thin skinned and thinking you are hounding me and I should be afraid because I got called "asswipe" on an internet forum ? Or Just rolling with it like in real life.
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 3, 2011 - 11:44am PT
Jim,
Go away.
Skip
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 3, 2011 - 11:45am PT
It doesn't matter who it came from, or how accurate or informed it is. It only matters that skipt and clones BELIEVE it and spread it. Religitards are good at spreading propaganda without any attempt to understand or validate it. That's why Repugnikunts pander to them.
Jim Brennan
Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 3, 2011 - 11:45am PT
Also I didn't demand you respond to my incessant nonsense. You asked me to ask you for your answer.
Rokjox
Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Oct 3, 2011 - 11:48am PT
Occupy Wall Street protests spread across U.S. to Boston, Los Angeles and Chicago
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2044704/Occupy-Wall-Street-protests-spread-U-S-Boston-Los-Angeles-Chicago.html
— The demonstrations have already spread to Los Angeles, Boston, Chicago, Denver and Seattle - and the arrests of 700 people in New York have only strengthened protesters' resolve.
How many of them fry units you think you got, Fattfried? Looks like you may need to put in another order. Wonder when the Wave reaches Boise?
We were on the trailing edge of the 60's and 70's, too.
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 3, 2011 - 11:49am PT
Occupy Wall Street: A Sad Display
The occupation and threats amount to little more than mob rule, writes Jonathan Hoenig
By JONATHAN HOENIG
There's something rather sad about the "Occupy Wall Street" protests which have been underway for over two weeks in New York, Chicago, Boston and other major US cities.
In earlier generations, civil disobedience like the Montgomery Bus Boycott or women's suffrage movement used nonviolent protest to combat blatant violations of individual rights.
The dreadlocked bands of youth camping out in New York's Zuccotti Park, however, are hardly Freedom Riders. Their demands range from "ending the modern gilded age" to "ending joblessness," although as an asterisk on their "Declaration of the Occupation notes, "these grievances are not all-inclusive."
The blog n+1 reported proposals ranging from a lifetime guaranteed income to the removal of the New York's iconic Wall Street bull sculpture.
On the heels of the "Occupy Wall Street" demonstrations in New York, protesters have gathered in downtown San Francisco. WSJ's Geoffrey A. Fowler reports.
And while it would be easy to write off these so-called protests as diffuse expressions of general twentysomething malaise, as they have grown, they have developed into something more dangerous: Organizing and promoting an "occupation" distinguishes this effort as that of a mob.
There is no right to disrupt traffic or occupy other people's property, no matter if it's one lunatic individual or the 99% of the public protesters claim to represent. What's so lamentable about "Occupy Wall Street" isn't even their collectivist goals but the means by which they go about to achieve them: force and intimidation.
Inspired by the "Occupy Wall Street" demonstrations in New York, some 100 people gathered Sunday outside the Federal Reserve Bank in Chicago to protest inequities in the nation's financial system. WSJ's Jack Nicas reports.
Merriam-Webster defines "occupy" as "to take or hold possession or control of," which is exactly what the protestors have done. Just yesterday, 700 people were arrested in New York blocking cars on the Brooklyn Bridge. "These are our streets, we will occupy them" proclaims the Chicago group's fliers. Yet it's not the ideas they hope will persuade onlookers, but their obstruction. For more than two weeks they've camped out in front of the Chicago Board of Trade and other financial centers, banging drums, barking demands and disrupting people working in neighboring offices.
Capitalism, the system "Occupy Wall Street" so feverishly wants to bury, operates on the principle of voluntary trade, not occupation and threat. Capitalism treats men not as sacrifices for the public good, but as independent individuals with their own lives. From the professional on the trading floor to the kid selling lemonade, investors know that if you want something from someone else, you can't simply demand it by occupation, you have to trade for it, just as others must trade with you.
That's the justice protestors are seeking to destroy.
Skip
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 3, 2011 - 11:49am PT
You asked me to ask you for your answer.
skipt, you did, honest. I knew it was a load of sh#t when you asked, but I let Jim pursue it without saying anything.
Jim, you are wasting your time. skipt has proven countless times, beyond any shadow a doubt,that he is incapable of providing any form of useful contribution.
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 3, 2011 - 11:51am PT
.
.
.
.
.
http://www.occupytogether.org/
,
,
,
,
,
,
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 3, 2011 - 11:53am PT
Jim,
The reason I had to tell you to "ask me" is because you kept putting words in my mouth.
You flat out wouldn't stop. So, I offered you a rhetorical remark about how to have a legitimate discussion.
If you want to know what I think just ask me. Stop putting words in my mouth.
Evidently you didn't quite get the concept.
Here is proof: You finally asked me and I answered you. Unfortunately, you have yet to respond to it. Instead, you changed the topic and started lecturing me on what posts I can respond to and how.
What to do.....
Skip
fattrad
Mountain climber
GOP Convention
Oct 3, 2011 - 11:54am PT
I like mine extra crispy:
http://sheriff.lacounty.gov/wps/portal/lasd/!ut/p/c4/04_SB8K8xLLM9MSSzPy8xBz9CP0os3hLAwMDd3-nYCN3M19LA0_nEDPvMJMAQ39jA_2CbEdFAFVdgp4!/?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/wps/wcm/connect/lasd+content/lasd+site/home/home+top+stories/aid+unvealed
The evil one
Rokjox
Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Oct 3, 2011 - 12:00pm PT
Well Skippy, I am surprised!
You can't seem to find ANYTHING to post that sounds at all positive.
And every word you've posted in those long rips of somebodies editorials sounds
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Gene
climber
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Will Karodrinker now please nuke his string of OCCUPY threads?
Appreciated,
g
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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hell yea Karl. off with their heads.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2011 - 03:51pm PT
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I have to post the rest of the thread in a couple posts cause the whole thread doesn't fit in a post
++++
Rokjox
Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Oct 3, 2011 - 12:00pm PT
Well Skippy, I am surprised!
You can't seem to find ANYTHING to post that sounds at all positive.
And every word you've posted in those long rips of somebodies editorials sounds like its written by exactly the same group, maybe even the same guy! Same voice, same command of imagery and vocabulary, same illustration and examples.
All Same-same. Sounds like a professional paid to produce propaganda, not exactly unbiased even a little.
Here is the biggest thought you need get in your head.
Even the largest fires begin very small and weak.
This is a small fire, and its not got its theme worked out, the signs and slogans are still being devised. But this could catch, the soil is dry and the people are inflamed at corporate/political bullsh#t.
(Can a corporate-persona attend a riot?)
The Tea Party look old and dispassionate compared to these guys.
Burn baby, burn!
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 3, 2011 - 12:01pm PT
Capitalism, the system "Occupy Wall Street" so feverishly wants to bury, operates on the principle of voluntary trade, not occupation and threat. Capitalism treats men not as sacrifices for the public good, but as independent individuals with their own lives. From the professional on the trading floor to the kid selling lemonade, investors know that if you want something from someone else, you can't simply demand it by occupation, you have to trade for it, just as others must trade with you.
That's the justice protestors are seeking to destroy.
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 3, 2011 - 12:05pm PT
Occupy Wall Street: A Sad Display
The occupation and threats amount to little more than mob rule, writes Jonathan Hoenig
By JONATHAN HOENIG
Skipt, it's rude, and violates copyright, to post an article without full attribution of the source, and a link. Or maybe you do not respect private property rights.
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 3, 2011 - 12:07pm PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Hoenig
Jonathan Hoenig (born September 10, 1975) is managing member at Capitalist Pig hedge fund and a regular contributor to Fox News Channel's Cashin' In.
Really, a contributer to Fux News? I never would have guessed.
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
Oct 3, 2011 - 12:08pm PT
Anti-Wall Street Protests Spread to Other Cities
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x5014162
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/04/us/anti-wall-street-protests-spread-to-other-cities.html?hp
http://www.occupytogether.org/
Edited on Mon Oct-03-11 02:35 PM by RedEarth
Source: NYT
Three weeks into a protest against corporate abuses and Wall Street power that has led to hundreds of arrests in New York, similar demonstrations are popping up in other cities across the country with the aid of social media and with the same loosely organized structure as the original demonstration.
On Monday, protesters were camped out in Los Angeles near City Hall, assembled in front of the Federal Reserve Bank building in Chicago and marching through downtown Boston to rally against corporate greed, unemployment and the role that financial institutions have played in pushing the country into its continuing economic malaise.
........
The groups have committees responsible for welcoming, security, transportation, art and the news media. Each has its own Google group. The arrests Saturday of more than 700 protesters on the Brooklyn Bridge for blocking the roadway have energized the movement, and on Monday, new protests were planned for other cities, including Memphis, Tenn.; Allentown, Pa.; and Hilo, Hawaii, according to organizers.
Later this week, rallies are scheduled for Detroit; Portland, Ore.; Minneapolis; and Baltimore, as well as in cities that rarely see such civil disobedience — Mason City, Iowa; Mobile, Ala.; Little Rock, Ark.; Santa Fe, N.M.; and McAllen, Tex., according to Occupy Together, an unofficial hub for the protests that lists dozens of demonstrations planned for the next week, including some in Europe and Japan.
When the rich, elite 1%, immorally, unethically, and greedily abuse the rest of us 99%, this is what happens.
Wealth and opportunity should be for everyone, not just for the rich, elite 1%. The rules of the game should not favor the 1% only and screw everyone else. Nor should our government be all about protecting the rich elite 1%.
This is supposed to be a government, a democracy, for the people and by the people. Right now it isn't. I think the people want to see it changed equitably, to just and fair.
What is GOD's advice to the rich elite of the World towards the rest of us, and to the poor of the World?
There is your answer.
There is a right and wrong here.
Bruce Kay
Gym climber
BC
Oct 3, 2011 - 12:09pm PT
What differentiates them from the Wall Street protesters is culture. They are recognisably American in their ideals and appearance.
So true and i'm glad someone finally had the courage to point this out. I mean, how can anyone take seriously those who must surely be trust funders easily identifiable by nose piercings and dreadlocks? With looks like that, it really dosn't matter what they say.
We went through this nonsense a decade or so ago when a bunch of hackey sack playing, bongo druming grannies and mere kids had the nerve to claim that we were logging off our valleys at what they claimed to be a "unsustainable rate", as if they somehow knew better than industry. Well really all you had to do was look at them and compare to the hard working boys with the saws to know that they had no credibility. Now decades later the proof is in the pudding.
remember, if they look funny, they probably are
Rokjox
Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Oct 3, 2011 - 12:10pm PT
Capitalism, the system "Occupy Wall Street" so feverishly wants to bury, operates on the principle of voluntary trade, not occupation and threat. Capitalism treats men not as sacrifices for the public good, but as independent individuals with their own lives
Who, John Galt? You quoting Ayn Rand, Skippy?
Attribute the blatant propaganda, Skippy, we like to see the names of the propagandist. Good to know somebody still makes a living the old way. By Lying about motivations and reality.
Bitching about Capitalists crying over the unfair tactics. That's rich, because they always call "the body of the people" unfair. Corporate-persons are a fiction used to spread money and influence around without naming the actual man/men who are doing it.
But corporations cannot deal with the body of the people well, the people are usually too big to bribe with cash, and that is the trade of capitalism. The bigger the capitalist and the bigger the problem, the more he wants to solve problems by throwing money at politicians.
These guys are going to be spending a LOT of Corporate Donations To Political Events and Candidates this coming year. IT's their answer to the Morality of Human Needs.
Lets see if Americans are all THAT Stupid, STILL.
Jim Brennan
Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 3, 2011 - 12:12pm PT
Ah, more revising of a post. OK:
Naturally I paid no American income tax because I am a Canadian.
Why do I have an opinion about the American economy and the recent unpunished criminal behavior of Wall Street operators equal with those that do pay American tax?
Because our North American economies are intertwined and what happens in Canada, The United States and Mexico affects everyone. The recent run at the communal cash in the marketplace that is considered private by those playing with it, reminds me of hero Reagan's blind eye to the opportunities presented by American Savings and Loan institutions. That went well for the depositors.
Now there it a nascent protest against similar behavior and the bitter feelings of being scammed are not washed away by a resurgent economy like in the 80's. This won't go away.
So why should I care as a foreigner ? Because globally and particularly for Canada, the American economy can pull everyone down like the Titanic. I have many friends who's real savings and collaterally their investment earnings were reduced by half after the sub prime mortgage scam hit the fan.
It can be assumed it was their own fault for playing stocks but only if there was honest representation from Lehman Bros.and all the other blood suckers.
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 3, 2011 - 12:16pm PT
Bruce, top quality sarcasm! Nice work.
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
Oct 3, 2011 - 12:20pm PT
Skipt, it's rude, and violates copyright, to post an article without full attribution of the source, and a link.
I agree it's rude, but if it violates copyright without full attribution, methinks it violates copyright with attribution as well.
Jim Brennan
Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 3, 2011 - 12:22pm PT
I did not put words in your mouth. Remember I said "if you believe..." not you believe.
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 3, 2011 - 12:26pm PT
When the f*#k are you going to stop this stupid nonsense, Jim?
I quoted what you said.
Here it is:
It's like Canadians don't read their own words:
No where did I imply less government equals no government.
Here are your words:
Unfortunately for your thing about less government, less government (no enforcement of law) is why whole scale rip offs are explained away as just economic bad luck
"less government (no enforcement of law)"
No Jim. You didn't "imply less government equals no government" you flat out said it in all its glory.
Skip
More to the point:
You asked me a question. I answered.
You are a whack job.
Skip
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 3, 2011 - 12:34pm PT
skipt has got to be used to it by now.
Lolli
Mountain climber
We lose ourselves in work to do and bills to pay
Oct 3, 2011 - 12:37pm PT
Trolls have to be quite oblivious to such trifles.
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 3, 2011 - 12:38pm PT
Shouldn't skipt and his fellow travelers should be beating up us Canadians for inspiring the whole thing? The 'movement' was started by Adbusters Media Foundation, which is based in Vancouver.
Rokjox
Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Oct 3, 2011 - 12:41pm PT
Yeah, the American Billionaire Capitalist is ever so concerned that I remain an independent individual that they want to outlaw unions, collective bargaining and the efficacy of the vote in American Politics. Each of these things is under attack because they are effective defenses against the Big Businessman's abuse of wealth and power.
Nothing unusual about abuse of wealth and power, its what it's called to do.
For instance: Remember Parker Bros Monopoly? Once you got control of the Monopoly board, do you remember what happened to the other players? How much did it matter any more if you Passed Go, and if you got that $200.00 bucks? When you could charge $2000 bucks for the luck of the next necessary spin, did circling the board (I.E. personal-production) matter to you?
No, you began getting your money (living) through the destruction your investments made on the other players having to associate with you and your various properties. If you could strip $2000 bucks off a player just before he passed Go, that was satisfaction indeed for the holder of Park Place Properties!, and it made the $200 tax return look pretty feeble...
Monopoly was popular because it taught people about the causes of the LAST Great Depression. We need to learn from it still. A great simulation game, one of the best since Chess.
You're losing Skippy. Never bet against the Body of the People when they are looking for respect and decency from an oppressive overling. In the end, even a billionaire is only a single man who cannot forever deny the body of the righteous revolutionaries who form the host he feeds on. They can scratch him off like a dog does a flea.
What billionaire doesn't depend on the society around him to feed, clothe and care for him? Every billionaire depends on his society exquisitely for everything he craves as human being, and he should damn well pay as a big share of expenses as we do for his big prerogatives. From he who great things have been granted, great things are expected. Is that a paraphrase?
The riche man ain't THAT different, ain't half that special when it comes down to it, when he is dead he will be missed less than he thinks. One more dead rich man ain't going change much, really. He wealth will remain and finally "Trickle Down" at least a little ways.
Occupy Wall Street.
The more I hear it, the better the Idea sounds.
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 3, 2011 - 12:43pm PT
Chase bank recently donated 6 million to the NY police department. Wonder if that makes them even more inclined to protect Wall Street from inconvenience?
http://www.jpmorganchase.com/corporate/Home/article/ny-13.htm
Edit
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
Oct 3, 2011 - 12:46pm PT
Funny how these dependable right wing shills suddenly see "mob rule" and "intimidation by thugs"...but when the Teahadists were showing up to public events armed to the teeth, well they were just "real Murcans" exercising their 2nd amendment rights.
Intimidation by armed right wing lunatics? No way!! Not those freedom loving, keep yer government hands off my medicare, patriots.
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
Oct 3, 2011 - 12:49pm PT
John Moses Browning has a solution.
Dingus Milktoast
Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 3, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
^^^ Man ain't that the truth. When those Arizona racists showed up at the Obama rally with guns some conservatives were virtually saying prayers over their holiness, lol.
DMT
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 3, 2011 - 12:51pm PT
Shouldn't skipt and his fellow travelers should be beating up us
Canadians
I would rather have you pay American Income tax so you can put your money
where your big mouth is.
Skip
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 3, 2011 - 12:52pm PT
If the NYPD cops are as noble as they were portrayed to be during 9/11, they would use that $4.6 Million to help the people.
They won't. They are now nothing more than corporate body guards.
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 3, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
Overall Canadians pay higher taxes than the US, and are mostly glad to do so. Taxes buy us not only a stable economy, but civilization.
Piton Ron
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Oct 3, 2011 - 12:54pm PT
Browning had some world beater designs.
The potato digger wasn't one of them.
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 3, 2011 - 12:55pm PT
The left simply cannot make up its mind if we need totalitarian government
or anarchy.
Skip
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 3, 2011 - 12:56pm PT
Overall Canadians pay higher taxes than the US, and are mostly
glad to do so. Taxes buy us not only a stable economy, but
civilization.
Sounds like you have it all covered. Feel free to comment on Canadian
politics to your little hearts content.
When you pay American Income tax we will take you seriously on ours.
Skip
Jim Brennan
Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 3, 2011 - 12:57pm PT
We do put our money where our mouth is. We are free to invest in the American economy as Americans are free to invest in ours. We also are bound to and comply with NATO obligations.
Rokjox
Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Oct 3, 2011 - 01:03pm PT
There is ever a conflict of interest within the Police between the RichMan/Corporations and the Poorer Masses. One seems to be served far better overall.
If a culprit cannot be found, he will be assigned. We have to presume the new wave of "enhanced interrogation" and the Newly instituted enhanced "Judicial Execution" policies will greatly expedite this assignment policies.
So far neither Awalaki nor Osama have protested their sentence or its execution. This is an improvement over Saddam and that whole Kangaroo Court process that Iraq and US(A) used to use. Extraordinary Extradition and Guantanamo, they are expensive. So formal, and the prisoners always have the potential of talking, if they should live so long.
Shooting an indicted Criminal in the head on sight is ever so much more efficacious. ""Trial" THAT, Perp!"
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 3, 2011 - 01:04pm PT
What rox is saying is that Obama and his paid thugs are totalitarian
socialists.
Skip
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 3, 2011 - 01:06pm PT
Obama will save us, you'll see!
TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
Oct 3, 2011 - 01:08pm PT
watching with interest...not this thread, the event.
not sure if this link has been posted:
http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
Oct 3, 2011 - 01:08pm PT
Browning had some world beater designs.
The potato digger wasn't one of them.
Yep, but the other really good photo of him with his face recognizable is behind a water cooled .50
Too much collateral damage.
Lovegasoline
Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Oct 3, 2011 - 01:11pm PT
But the Wall Street protesters are the wrong crowd to do it. This photo, of a lady sitting next to a sign titled “Corporate Freeloaders!” while having her photograph taken with an IPad, goes to the heart of the problem. Never trust the political rhetoric of young white hippies: it is undermined by their fabulous wealth and their complete detachment from reality. They travel the world from riot to riot – a cause on every continent, a ring in every orifice. They might have the diet of a North African peasant, but these spoiled brats are professional agitators financed by a generous trust fund.
One thing that is especially irksome about their movement is its pleasure seeking. This protest, like countless others, has been described as having a “carnival atmosphere”. Doesn’t that seem a little less than revolutionary? During the Red Scare of 1919-1920, America was torn apart by union strikes and anarchist bombs. Clashes between labor and nationalist mobs in Cleveland, Ohio were only broken by mounted police. Two people died, forty were injured and 116 were arrested. Compare that grim, cheerless struggle for workers’ rights with this report from the Wall Street protests,
Pure idiocy.
The Occupy Wall Street Protesters have professed their non-violence.
The Occupy Wall Street Protesters are plugging into the tradition of non-violence civil disobedience. They are not throwing bombs into offices, doing targeted assassinations, or burying people alive and executing children like the Bolsheviks.
Instead of shooting people in the face, they are singing songs, chanting, marching. This is to their credit.
Furthermore, the protesters look more like average people than the tea party buffoons. The blandness of the average midwesterner is a scary visage to a New Yorker. We cringe at the thought of folks like that ... they look like zombies. Image 2,000 of your 'average American' walking en mass across the Brooklyn Bridge: we'd think we were being invaded by alien body snatchers.
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 3, 2011 - 01:14pm PT
The Tea Party is a better description of a group committed to non violence.
They understand completely they have the numbers to throw the Obama cronies out and install a real constitutional government.
Skip
TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
Oct 3, 2011 - 01:15pm PT
keep on trollin skip
Rokjox
Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Oct 3, 2011 - 01:16pm PT
So did the Patriot act One(?), or Two(?) give the government the right to kill "fugitives" who are ACCUSED of crimes (but not in a court), in foreign nations, on sight, with a killer hit team?
Just queerious, if you understand. So how far does THAT go? Some people are calling the Occupy Wall Street people Economic Terrorists...
...I used to think that kind of thing was illegal, for like the last 700 years? Way back when the King of England (GOD Bless He's Dead!) used to pull that sh#t against the Irish and the Scotch.
But so was "Enhanced Interrogation" AKA "cruel and unusual punishment" without a Trial. Ah, the old days, of Terror Trials. "DUNK HER!"(Waterboard him!). "If she dies, she was innocent!"(If he dies he was guilty!)
Naw, none of them is innocent, they are ALL guilty, including the living. IF they wern't guilty, we wouldn't have shot them, would we? What might these guys have said had they been allowed to live until a PUBLIC TRIAL COURT ordered their execution? Who cares; It'd just add to the confusion and the people (History) got no right to know. Anyway, you sue for your rights afterwards, nobody respects them before the court says to, and that puppy ain't gonna testify, he-he.
SkIPT:
actually Skippy, you are right as far as you go about me calling down Obama.
I don't like what is going on, the extension of the Bush Policies is far too seamless.
Human rights are being violated and ignored at the same time. I don't like it for sh#t when my nation goes Fascist. Look it up, Fascism is always associated with big business getting together with government to tighten the controls on society, production and "capital" (Freedom, Power and Wealth).
I think it sucks "S H I T B I G" frankly.
What do you think?
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 3, 2011 - 01:16pm PT
This photo, of a lady sitting next to a sign titled “Corporate Freeloaders!” while having her photograph taken with an IPad, goes to the heart of the problem.
I'm betting that iPod was purchased fair and square with money the holder earned... which is more than can be said for most of Wall Street.
The Tea Party is a better description of a group committed to non violence.
Which is why they show up with guns, you know, cuz they are peaceful.
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 3, 2011 - 01:19pm PT
keep on trollin skip
If these violent protest clowns had the numbers behind them they would just show up at the polls and vote people in who agree with them.
They don't. So they make noise and throw garbage all over the place. And, hope beyond hope that the Canadians show up to defend them.
Skip
Jim Brennan
Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 3, 2011 - 01:21pm PT
That would be nice. We've certainly helped out before.
Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
Oct 3, 2011 - 01:24pm PT
How have they been violent Skippy? Let me know, bro.
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 3, 2011 - 01:26pm PT
How have they been violent Skippy? Let me know, bro.
Brandon,
Have you ever been snipe hunting?
Skip
Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
Oct 3, 2011 - 01:27pm PT
Not sure what that means, bro.
fattrad
Mountain climber
GOP Convention
Oct 3, 2011 - 01:27pm PT
"Release the hounds"
Montgomery Burns
The evil one
Rokjox
Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Oct 3, 2011 - 01:28pm PT
Same thing can be said of the tea partiers, skippy.
If htey had the numbers at the pools, Sarah Palin would be President.
How many are there Occupping Wall Street, and what way are they going to vote. How committed are they?
And how big is the fire of protest gonna spread in the next year?
You GROW your enemies, the more you oppress him, the stronger he becomes...
Do you think the Right is that smart to understand what that means? ...Not so far...
Big turnouts is always good for the Democrats.
Burn Baby, Burn!
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 3, 2011 - 01:29pm PT
Brandon,
Have you ever been snipe hunting?
Not sure what that means, bro.
That is classic.
Skip
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 3, 2011 - 01:32pm PT
If [they] had the numbers at the [polls], Sarah Palin would be President.
What Rox is saying is that it was disaffected Democrats that gave the Republican party a historic 65 seat win in the house. Another historic win in state houses and governorships all over the country.
On a side note: Hey Rox,
Is yours what they teach you when you learn how to cypher and do your numbers in sewer architect school?
Skip
Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
Oct 3, 2011 - 01:32pm PT
You're classic.
Googled it. It's a turn of speech I hadn't heard before, kind of like the term open minded applies to you.
You seem incapable of hearing anything that doesn't align with the talking points you shoot up. Face it, you're addicted, bro.
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
Oct 3, 2011 - 01:33pm PT
Don't give the police an excuse to kick your arse. Remember, they like to do it and they're getting paid to do it. (And if you know what average NY cops make, you'll see why they'll gladly kick arse even if they didn't think it was so much fun.)
malabarista
Trad climber
Portland, OR
Oct 3, 2011 - 01:35pm PT
I'm somewhat sympathetic, we've all been robbed by these powers -but this kind of protest is just too much "I'm the victim" mentality for me. "We the people" have been robbed indeed, but I wonder where the outrage should really be directed. We bought into and continue to buy into this system. This kind of protest is like asking the robbers to save us. If people stop buying into it, and stop expecting that it will ever repay them for the theft, that's what will change it.
"Friends are more valuable than money"
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 3, 2011 - 01:36pm PT
^^^Word^^^^
Wonderfully said.
If you don't mind, may I add: "Cronyism takes two sides"
Thank you.
Skip
atchafalaya
Boulder climber
Oct 3, 2011 - 01:44pm PT
"they have the numbers to throw the Obama cronies out and install a real constitutional government"
What is a real constitutional government?
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 3, 2011 - 01:47pm PT
What is a real Constitutional Government?
Start here:
http://www.amazon.com/Liberty-Tyranny-Conservative-Mark-Levin/dp/1416562850
fattrad
Mountain climber
GOP Convention
Oct 3, 2011 - 01:51pm PT
"Greed, for want of a better word, is good"
Gordon Gekko
The evil one
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 3, 2011 - 01:57pm PT
It has surely not escaped skipt's attention that the Occupy Wall Street peaceful patriotic unarmed demonstrations started on September 17th, which is your Constitution Day. True Americans.
One of the fatal flaws of the tea party/right wing movement is that it denigrates its opponents as not being "true" or "real" Americans, both implicitly and explicitly. The right wing has no monopoly on patriotism, although it's big on jingoism and cheap nationalism.
fattrad
Mountain climber
GOP Convention
Oct 3, 2011 - 01:58pm PT
Oooooops, corrected.
"What good is money if one cannot use it to oppress his fellow man"
Montgomery Burns
The evil one
CrackAddict
Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
Oct 3, 2011 - 02:01pm PT
When the rich, elite 1%, immorally, unethically, and greedily abuse the rest of us 99%, this is what happens.
Wealth and opportunity should be for everyone, not just for the rich, elite 1%. The rules of the game should not favor the 1% only and screw everyone else. Nor should our government be all about protecting the rich elite 1%.
This is supposed to be a government, a democracy, for the people and by the people. Right now it isn't. I think the people want to see it changed equitably, to just and fair.
Our country is a democracy, but it was not founded on redistribution and entitlements. Tell me where that is guaranteed in the Constitution? Opportunity exists for everyone - but wealth must be earned. This is a capitalist economy - if we want prosperity, we have to allow capital to flow to where it can be the most productive. That means Government cannot pick favorites anymore, and cannot redistribute wealth for the sake of social engineering.
atchafalaya
Boulder climber
Oct 3, 2011 - 02:02pm PT
Skipt, no links please...
Surely, you can have an original, (i.e., plagarized) view on what a "real constitutional goverment" is?
Ron Anderson
Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.
Oct 3, 2011 - 02:02pm PT
The actula positive thing about this i see, is that people, no matter the party affiliation, are FINALLY getting tired of the same ol...Hopefully, this is ONLY the tip of a MT EVEREST of vocal and visible opinion to come. Its a good tiny start and a good sign that we are closer to an END bottom so we can finally start building again.
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 3, 2011 - 02:02pm PT
One of the fatal flaws of the tea party/right wing movement is that
it denigrates its opponents as not being "true" or "real" Americans, both
implicitly and explicitly.
One of the fatal flaws of foreigners who take sides on American politics
is that they never defend the tea party/right wing when the very thing
happenes to them.
It's like they are blind or something.
Would you like to see what people on this very forum say about Republicans?
Would you like to open your eyes?
Where was Anders when tea party people were being beaten by SEIU thugs
when they were having a protest rally?
What say you Mr. Canada?
Skip
Jim Brennan
Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 3, 2011 - 02:06pm PT
Please elaborate Skip.
Rokjox
Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Oct 3, 2011 - 02:12pm PT
CYPHERS?
I don't cut cyphers. Cyphering was for math majors.
Honest to god, you'd be amased at just how much engineering succumbs to the point/slope formula you learned in about 5th grade. The ultimate all purpose formula for grading and drainage, sewwer, storm drains, centerlines, parking lots, septic systems, leechfields, irrigation topo, surveying, drafting, curb gutter and sidewalk, estimating drop, distance or quantity, amoong a whole lot more.
In drafting, having some draftsman who was able to run the numbers every 50 or 100 feet along a road centerline to jot them on the plan, or the elevation of the spot on the curb 28 feet away at 2% cross-slope in his head, used to be pretty economic compared to having some high dollar engineer figure them with his calculator, write them down, THEN draft it, spending hours working. Probably doing the it hard way, to boot... and that was true in Autocad modelling, too.
I can do it faster and type it than I can temp the computer in displaying it by the rules of the automated software.
Point/slope formula rules.
Geometry is the universe, the draftsman is its translator. The Engineer or Architect is the boss... and the boss don't do the work.
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
Oct 3, 2011 - 02:16pm PT
An engineer is someone that puts a $500 dollar saddle on a $5 horse,
and then gets the client to pay for a unicorn.
If you are so gud at it Rox, when are you going to get a job?
fattrad
Mountain climber
GOP Convention
Oct 3, 2011 - 02:17pm PT
Rokjox,
Personally, my favorite is multiple regression analysis.
The evil one
TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
Oct 3, 2011 - 02:19pm PT
“there is nobody in this country who got rich on his own. Nobody…Part of the underlying social contract is you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along.” Elizabeth Warren
TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
Oct 3, 2011 - 02:21pm PT
Credit: TKingsbury
skipt
Mountain climber
Washington
Oct 3, 2011 - 02:44pm PT
Personally, my favorite is multiple regression analysis.
That is some tough stuff.
It really is.
Skip
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 3, 2011 - 04:29pm PT
It's funny that someone would support the many tea party protests, ostensibly protesting higher taxes when no taxes have been raised,
but diss the Occupy Wall Street protesters when the Bankers crashed our economy and hosed the housing market and harmed us all.
Who really cost the people money? If you are unselfish, or selfish, the bankers have been the cause of great suffering to yourself and others and have escaped any criminal liability. Have they been proven innocent? No! They just got a pass. WHat happened to responsibility and accountability?
Just for poor people, I get it
Peace
Karl
Edit
malabarista
Trad climber
Portland, OR
Oct 3, 2011 - 04:40pm PT
If you really want to protest the Wall Street system, you don't have to invest in it. I don't anymore. I don't believe in the us versus them thing on this. We (the collective) bought in to this system (Wall Street) knowing the game was rigged. At a certain point a few years ago I'd had enough, and sold all my investments. I'm out. That is the real protest. I am free to spend my capital on whatever I choose and invest it in other things. I do stand in spirit with the protesters whenever they protest using my tax dollars to bail out "Wall Street", which I want no part of saving since I'm not invested in it. I think if you are talking about "reforming Wall Street" it's barking up the wrong tree. It's rigged and it's always been rigged.
"Wall Street has nothing to do with creating capital for businesses, its original goal. Wall Street is a platform. It’s a platform to be exploited by every technological and intellectual means possible." -Mark Cuban
Source:
http://blogmaverick.com/2011/08/08/what-business-is-wall-street-in-2/
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 3, 2011 - 04:56pm PT
This is a capitalist economy - if we want prosperity, we have to allow capital to flow to where it can be the most productive.
You are assuming that unrestricted capitalism works. Plenty of reasons to think it does not. The only arguments I have seen in favor of unrestricted capitalism are tainted by aggressive indoctrination.
malabarista, not everyone affected has invested. I have no debt and have never invested in the wall sheet, nor have I inherited anything other than a strong work ethic. I still can't find a job, they just aren't there. I still have to pay my taxes so corporations that are "too big to fail" can give executives huge bonuses. I still have to pay higher food prices. Your argument is flawed.
malabarista
Trad climber
Portland, OR
Oct 3, 2011 - 04:58pm PT
I'm lucky that I've never had a problem yet getting a job since my field still seems to be in demand. I am very lucky and grateful for that luck. I still think people have to quit participation in this sham of a system as much as possible for the protest to have any meaning. How many people are out there protesting while still dumping money into their 401K?
I would be fine with discontinuing social security as long as the government is willing to pay me back everything I put in with modest interest. If they try to steal what we people actually paid in to the system which was to be guaranteed for retirement then there should be a revolution.
jstan
climber
Oct 3, 2011 - 05:01pm PT
A while ago I posted the real Dow Jones showing long term real rate of increase is less than 2% and the last decade has been a no-winner. The plot shows to gain you have to actively trade. Something everyone says small investors are unable to do. And the dollar cost averaging brokers propose as a solution makes sense only if there is in fact an upward trend. Which there is not and has not been for more than ten years.
Don’t believe the data? Read the Wall Street Journal.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204831304576592822485984958.html
European nations, flirting with recession, can't agree on how to climb out from under their pile of debt. The U.S. is careening toward a budget fight that threatens to shut down the government. China's mammoth economy may be downshifting.
Economic fragility world-wide is causing investors to retreat from stocks. Traders signal offers on S&P 500 stock-index options in Chicago on Friday.
And across the financial markets, a sea change is taking place. Investors are abandoning the time-tested "stocks for the long run" optimism that dominated since the late 1980s. Instead, there is a widening belief that the mess left behind by the housing bubble and financial crisis will be a morass to contend with for years.
In a historic retreat, investors world-wide during the three months through August pulled some $92 billion out of stock funds in the developed markets, according to data provider EPFR Global—an exodus that more than reversed the total amount of money investors had put into those funds since stocks bottomed in 2009. The withdrawals matched the worst three-month period during the depths of the financial crisis.
fattrad
Mountain climber
GOP Convention
Oct 3, 2011 - 05:02pm PT
malabarista,
You haven't seen my results.
Anyway, just got off the phone with Bob Osborne. Funny that he remembered me and the Hear Ray is on it's way to NYC. Turn the setting to 7 and burn the toast.
The evil one
CrackAddict
Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
Oct 3, 2011 - 05:16pm PT
but diss the Occupy Wall Street protesters when the Bankers crashed our economy and hosed the housing market and harmed us all.
Karl, do you really think Bankers crashed our economy? It had nothing to do with this?
Credit: CrackAddict
This is the total credit market debt from 1920 on as a percent of GDP (so it is inflation adjusted). You see, all Wall Street does is peddle whatever we produce. Unfortunately our main export in the last 25 years has been debt. The biggest culprit here is the Fed though - the steepest sections of this graph correlate strongly with very low interest rate regimes. What banks do makes very good sense in the context of the sandbox they are given. Right now there is no incentive to even take deposits - it is cheaper to borrow at a negative effective rate from the Fed and loan it back to the Government to misallocate, which leads to recession after recession. The longer we try to avoid the pain by bailing out, printing money, stimulating, etc., the longer our economy stays disfunctional and the worse the eventual pain.
In order to get out of a recession, capital has to fall into the hands of those who can make a profit with it, on average. Government has NEVER been able to do this. Right now our ROI on government spending is about 20%(!). When the government bails out or throws stimulus at politically connected companies, the return is not much better than this (see Solyndra). Artifically low interest rates make the situation far worse: Companies that should never see the light of day get capital, creating an economic Galapagos full of companies that would never be able to compete in a tighter economy.
Bad companies have to go bankrupt. Jobs will be lost, but the long term cost of the alternative is far worse.
Again, you can throw every bank CEO in jail right now, but unless structural changes are made, we are not getting out of this funk.
CrackAddict
Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
Oct 3, 2011 - 05:23pm PT
You are assuming that unrestricted capitalism works. Plenty of reasons to think it does not. The only arguments I have seen in favor of unrestricted capitalism are tainted by aggressive indoctrination.
Nobody is arguing for "unrestricted capitalism", whatever that is, but Government needs to get out of the way unless there is a compelling reason to think the private sector cannot function correctly without them (i.e., in cases with a misalligned profit motive). But if you make the argument that capitalism itself does not work, please give an example of a country that has become wealthy without it.
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
Oct 3, 2011 - 05:39pm PT
In the old days, class warriors were proverbial men of the people who made an effort to match their lifestyles with their rhetoric. Not now. When President Obama rails about "millionaires," we expect that in a few hours our Class Warrior in Chief will golf with Wall Street fat cats to hit them up for campaign money. We presume that the First Family prefers Costa del Sol, Martha's Vineyard or Vail to a passé Camp David.
If director Michael Moore or New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg warns us about impending rioting and class strife, we assume both live in huge homes and are multimillionaires. The new class-warfare coalitions are comprised mostly of the less well-off and the very well-off, one wishing for ever more state help, the other rich enough to not mind bestowing it. No wonder both demonize as greedy and racist Tea Baggers those in the middle who are most likely to feel the cost of ever more government.
....
Post Modern Class Warfare.
Class warfare is now not about brutal elemental poverty of the sort Charles Dickens or Knut Hamsun once wrote about. It is too often the anger that arises from not having something that someone else has, whether or not such style, privilege or discretionary choices are all that necessary. Endemic obesity, not malnutrition, threatens America — including the nearly 50 million Americans who are on food stamps.
These are hard times, with high unemployment rates and economic stagnation. But we are not a nation of the malnourished and starving who are preyed upon by idle rich drones who pay no taxes. And a government that borrows $4 billion a day and spends $2 trillion more a year than it did just 10 years ago is hardly stingy.
http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson100311.html
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 3, 2011 - 05:50pm PT
Nobody is arguing for "unrestricted capitalism", whatever that is, but Government needs to get out of the way unless there is a compelling reason to think the private sector cannot function correctly without them (i.e., in cases with a misalligned profit motive). But if you make the argument that capitalism itself does not work, please give an example of a country that has become wealthy without it.
Yep.
Solyndra is an example of unrestricted socialism gone wrong. All the capitalists were saying it was a bad deal, and it was. Yet gov't forced it upon us, and we taxpayers lose.
Are any of those stupid anarchists in Brooklyn bitching about that???
spidey
Trad climber
Berkeley CA
Oct 3, 2011 - 06:08pm PT
Something is Happening, and you don't know what it is...do you, Mr. Jones...
spidey
Trad climber
Berkeley CA
Oct 3, 2011 - 06:11pm PT
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/catherine-crier/capitalists-of-america--u_b_992786.html
Capitalists of America -- Unite! (Why Adam Smith would be marching today)
Posted: 10/3/11 03:24 PM ET
That's my rallying cry for the protestors on Wall Street, for the millions of citizens who are unemployed, for the anti-government Tea Partiers and for the nation's small business owners and entrepreneurs. It is time to expose the imposters and reclaim capitalism for the American people.
Today, Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations is considered a Bible for capitalism, but when published in 1776, it was a blasphemous challenge to the big business, big government mercantilism in Europe. Smith's free market theories expanded economic opportunity, promoted competition and encouraged innovation, in large part, by attacking the "concentrated wealth and power" of Britain's commercial elite.
More than taxation without representation, it was the corrupt British economic system that ignited the American Revolution -- just read the entire Declaration of Independence. This insidious corruption was a major focus of Smith's economic treatise. Smith's theories dovetailed beautifully with Thomas Jefferson's political manifesto, and his writings became the framework for our capitalist philosophy. But as both men learned in their lifetime, theory and practice are rarely in sync.
In a Faustian bargain, our leaders pay homage to Smith's ideals, but from the outset, they have ignored his model in favor of rapid national expansion and global economic power. What we call capitalism is, in fact, the American version of mercantilism. Ludwig von Mises, a libertarian economist, summed up its benefits rather nicely: "Capitalism gave the world what it needed, a higher standard of living for a growing population." Measured thusly, the results have been breathtakingly successful, but if the goal is the long-term viability of our economic and political democracy, we are in serious trouble.
Just as Jeffersonian democracy operates best on a small scale, Adam Smith believed his self-correcting free markets were ideal for small businesses in a domestic economy. Integrated in their communities, these businesses would be influenced directly by the needs and demands of consumers, and any dangerous or abusive conduct would rarely affect the broader economy. But Smith treated large, powerful companies very differently. He said big business was led by "an order of men...that generally have an interest to deceive and even to oppress the public", and he referred to powerful corporations (then known as joint stock companies) as "unaccountable sovereigns" that were as dangerous to free markets as tyrannical governments. Unrestrained, they had the power to shape society and governments for their own purposes, and consumers would pay for "all the extraordinary profits" while suffering from "all the extraordinary waste", the inherent fraud and abuse, that accompanies such immense economic power.
Smith stated emphatically that a strong government, acting through democratic and legal institutions, was the only entity capable of challenging such corporate power. Smith supported necessary government regulations, labor and human rights, public education, and progressive taxation to ease the economic and social inequities he knew would occur in a capitalist system. Without these "liberal" measures, social and political unrest would threaten a nation's stability and his free market economy could not survive.
While Thomas Jefferson applauded Smith's theories, the 'father of American conservatism', Alexander Hamilton, denounced this philosophy as nonsense. Hamilton intended to establish America as a global powerhouse in short order. He was thinking big and didn't have time for Smith's small-scale, go-slow approach. Britain's mercantile system was elitist and abusive, but Hamilton knew it was the engine that drove England's powerful economy. As Secretary of the Treasury, he planned to use that very system to propel America onto the world stage.
Both his plan and its execution were brilliant. Hamilton set out to consolidate power in the new federal government by controlling the money supply, tariffs and trade and by managing the nation's industrial development. Farmers and shopkeepers couldn't provide the revenue he needed, nor could they finance the commercial development and infrastructure necessary for America to play in the big leagues. Hamilton needed big money and powerful partners in the private sector.
To accomplish this, he used the courts and Federalist Congress to institutionalize a powerful federal government and corporatist economy, a practice continued by his successors. The myth that corporations are somehow "persons" and equivalent to the human beings Adam Smith was liberating in his free market utopia is possibly the most successful coup in the history of the world, achieved with the stroke of a judicial pen in 1886.
Despite warnings by prescient Republican presidents like Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt and Dwight Eisenhower, the American system has morphed quite predictably into a dog-eat-dog economic Darwinism, and the **big canines have rigged the game in their favor.
Flying the capitalist flag, the really big guys have completely corrupted Smith's free market philosophy. They use their concentrated wealth and power to buy off politicians, skate around regulations, abuse their privileges and sometimes, break the laws to win. When their politicians and corporate-sponsored "citizen" groups insist that small government and the market itself are sufficient checks, that further controls are a socialist plot to destroy capitalism, they are counting on our collective naiveté to win the game. They are destroying free enterprise by abusing the very freedoms intrinsic to a market economy.
That so many conservatives, adamant that they are defending true capitalism, would fail to make this distinction, gives credence to the power of the "big lie." They have so internalized this nonsense, that again and again, they are willing to defend transnational behemoths over the well-being of the American economy.
As one (somewhat mysterious) financial trader said in a BBC TV interview last week, a crashing economy is a brilliant opportunity for savvy insiders to make a killing. The economic well-being of a nation or its citizens is not a major factor in the world of transnational commerce. Predicting that the economic crisis will deepen, he summed up his message with a smile -- governments don't rule the world, Goldman Sachs rules the world.
For true American patriots who believe in a vibrant free market economy, it is time to recognize we've been sold a bill of goods. The real enemy in the battle for American capitalism is not socialism; it is global corporatism. For true patriots, conservatives and liberals alike, the stakes could not be higher.
My new book, Patriot Acts -- What Americans Must Do to Save the Republic, examines the true nature of our constitutional system, how it has been interpreted and manipulated by conservatives and liberals since 1789, the effect of partisan ideology on this democratic system, including the economy, national security, health care, education and immigration, and how modern politicians betray the founding principles, constitutional system and economic capitalism that all Americans, left and right, profess to defend. Patriot Acts can be preordered on-line and will be released on November 1, 2011.
Patriotacts.com, catherine@patriotacts.com
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
Oct 3, 2011 - 06:15pm PT
Yet gov't forced it upon us, and we taxpayers lose.
I totally agree!
Just like Iraq.. 1 trillion dollars versus half a billion. those damn socialist.
Why can't they think big like the Republicans?
Riley Wyna
Trad climber
A crack near you
Oct 3, 2011 - 06:16pm PT
If the tea baggers and the progressives are getting together that can only a good thing!
Kick ass boys!!
Thieves, crooks and corrupt sociopaths.
I've seen enough of it personaly and nationally to last a life time.
Revolution!!
spidey
Trad climber
Berkeley CA
Oct 3, 2011 - 06:26pm PT
You know something? [Wall Street] will get it. They'll get it all from you sooner or later, 'cause they own this f*in' place. It's a big club, and you ain't in it. You and I are not in the big club. ... The table is tilted, folks. The game is rigged. And nobody seems to notice, nobody seems to care. Good, honest hard working people ... continue to elect these rich c*suckers who don't give a f*** about them.
-George Carlin
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 3, 2011 - 07:07pm PT
I'm not saying bank bailouts were good. They should have been allowed to fail if they made bad decisions.
But blaming "wealthy" people on this problem is somewhat misguided. This was a Fannie/Freddie problem coupled with some other factors.
The anarchists demonstrating are mostly lazy anti-capitalist commies. They can go f*#k themselves for all I care. Go to work, get a job!
Quit being a PITA to people who choose to go to work and lead responsible lives!~
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 3, 2011 - 07:17pm PT
Government needs to get out of the way unless there is a compelling reason to think the private sector cannot function correctly without them
Uh... if government isn't going to restrict corporate greed, who is? I think the private sector has proven it cannot function correctly on its own.
China seems to be doing pretty well without capitalism.
Spidey, thanks for the post:
Just as Jeffersonian democracy operates best on a small scale, Adam Smith believed his self-correcting free markets were ideal for small businesses in a domestic economy. Integrated in their communities, these businesses would be influenced directly by the needs and demands of consumers, and any dangerous or abusive conduct would rarely affect the broader economy. But Smith treated large, powerful companies very differently. He said big business was led by "an order of men...that generally have an interest to deceive and even to oppress the public", and he referred to powerful corporations (then known as joint stock companies) as "unaccountable sovereigns" that were as dangerous to free markets as tyrannical governments. Unrestrained, they had the power to shape society and governments for their own purposes, and consumers would pay for "all the extraordinary profits" while suffering from "all the extraordinary waste", the inherent fraud and abuse, that accompanies such immense economic power.
Smith stated emphatically that a strong government, acting through democratic and legal institutions, was the only entity capable of challenging such corporate power. Smith supported necessary government regulations, labor and human rights, public education, and progressive taxation to ease the economic and social inequities he knew would occur in a capitalist system. Without these "liberal" measures, social and political unrest would threaten a nation's stability and his free market economy could not survive.
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 3, 2011 - 07:20pm PT
"if you don't like the world, don't bitch and moan, do something about it!"
bill graham rock promoter
his shows always started at 8:00 pm
never 8:01, always 8. dude was badass
FortMental
Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Oct 3, 2011 - 07:20pm PT
China seems to be doing pretty well without capitalism.
Umm.... Excuse me?
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 3, 2011 - 07:22pm PT
Weschrist writes:
"Uh... if government isn't going to restrict corporate greed, who is?"
In a free country, what business does the government have restricting anybody's *greed* ?
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 3, 2011 - 07:23pm PT
yer excused, now get the fuk out of here.
In a free country, what business does the government have restricting anybody's *greed* ?
That IS the business of government in a free country when crooks are concerned, moron.
Donald Thompson
Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Oct 3, 2011 - 07:28pm PT
The historical arc of the liberal activist:
Street demonstrating --- legitimate political power in government ---failure of policies and values --- back to the street
Donald Thompson
Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Oct 3, 2011 - 07:29pm PT
That IS the business of government in a free country when crooks are concerned, moron.
Some of the greediest people on the planet are in government. And most of the corrupt ones.
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 3, 2011 - 07:33pm PT
A well spoken young lad. Never made it on Faux News. They were probably too busy covering important stuff, like the Jackson trial.
http://youtu.be/6yrT-0Xbrn4
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 3, 2011 - 07:41pm PT
This whole she-bang resulted from many things;
Fannie/Freddie basically forcing banks to give loans to losers.
The repeal of the Glass-Stiegal Act.
Reapealing the 'uptick rule' in bond/stock trading. (A big one!!!).
Short selling.
In short, yeah, there needs to be regulations in a free-market system. But to pin this on rich right-wingers is misguided. The lefties soak the system and the rules just as much.
Put the regs back into place. Wealthy people create jobs. Let them continue to do so. It's the traders who are f*#king us!
Donald Thompson
Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Oct 3, 2011 - 07:42pm PT
Never made it on Faux News.
But I bet he made it on CBS,NBC,ABC, Reuters,AP, NPR, and CNN
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Oct 3, 2011 - 07:44pm PT
I think it's pretty clear from watching the rapid economic rise of East Asia that state managed capitalism is far more efficient than the individualistic laisez faire version practiced in America. It doesn't matter if it is managed by the left (China) or the right (Singapore) or moderately democratic, center leaning, right regimes (South Korea, Japan, Taiwan), what's important is having professional economists running the country instead of hack politicians backed by selfish and greedy corporate interest who care only for their own welfare and that of their company and not the country and its people as a whole.
All of these successful economies also level the playing field by government sponsored basic services to their citizens such as education and health care.
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 3, 2011 - 07:45pm PT
only smart people should breed.
no wait, i sound like hank jr
global warming is gonna kick everybody's ass, so screw politics because...
your gonna die!
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 3, 2011 - 07:47pm PT
what's important is having professional economists running the country instead of hack politicians backed by selfish and greedy corporate interest who care only for their own welfare and that of their company and not the country and its people as a whole.
Like Paul Krugman???
Donald Thompson
Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Oct 3, 2011 - 07:48pm PT
state managed capitalism
If ever their were an oxymoron this is it.
You ought to float that by the spoiled brats currently stinking up the NY streets.
dirtbag
climber
Oct 3, 2011 - 07:49pm PT
Glad you agree that Krugman should have a greater role.
;-)
ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
Oct 3, 2011 - 07:50pm PT
punkz!!!
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 3, 2011 - 07:50pm PT
oh yeah, lets bring back warren greenspan,
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 3, 2011 - 07:51pm PT
Put the regs back into place.
yeah, less government!
The top 10% have 80% to 90% of stocks, bonds, trust funds, and business equity...
William Domhoff, UCSD
Yeah, the rich don't have anything to do with the stock market, it is just the traders.
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 3, 2011 - 07:53pm PT
sorry, i meant alex greenspoon
Donald Thompson
Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Oct 3, 2011 - 07:54pm PT
spoonex greenale
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 3, 2011 - 08:01pm PT
The top 10% have 80% to 90% of stocks, bonds, trust funds, and business equity...
And they just lost their asses in the past 2-weeks. Is it becuase of them of gov't lack of policy? Uncertainty due to lack of leadership and misguided Keynesian policy?
Or is it because of stout leadership and faith in markets?
The man in the WH breathes uncertainty and distrust of our current direction.
EDIT: Greenspan was a putz too.
Donald Thompson
Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Oct 3, 2011 - 08:07pm PT
The top 10% have 80% to 90% of stocks, bonds, trust funds, and business equity...
Yes and the top 10% of pro athletes make nearly that much relative to the other players. Where would those teams be if the players making less confiscated the earnings of the top 10%?
Lovegasoline
Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Oct 3, 2011 - 10:28pm PT
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
Oct 3, 2011 - 10:35pm PT
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
Lovegas,
Right on!
OK SuperTopians, let's take a moment for a teach-in. We have a great teachable moment here. Let's not waste it.
What's going on for real?
Occupy U.S.A., with Jeff Madrick - Countdown with Keith Olbermann (Prof./Author of The Age of Greed)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x621442
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0o1DpNSkpc
Moore From The Street, with Michael Moore:Countdown with Keith Olbermann
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x621447
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXVz3378pcQ
Tomorrow the World? with Michael Moore - Countdown with Keith Olbermann
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x621452
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXJcjonMckY
OccupyWallStreet Protester - DESTROYS - Fox News Reporter!!!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x621083
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yrT-0Xbrn4
The Bible on the Poor
or, Why God is a liberal
http://www.zompist.com/meetthepoor.html
Luke 12:48 (KJV)
" . . . For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 3, 2011 - 11:21pm PT
Crack wrote
This is the total credit market debt from 1920 on as a percent of GDP (so it is inflation adjusted). You see, all Wall Street does is peddle whatever we produce. Unfortunately our main export in the last 25 years has been debt.
It's more complicated than that. Wall Street Created much extra debt without responsibility by loaning to people who couldn't afford it, telling them housing was only going to appreciate, and then offloading that risk from themselves by securitizing it, and then further leveraging with CDOs. They sold that crap to other suckers who had no way of knowing what was truly inside those securities and the credit-worthiness of those loans were lied about. This was made possible by deregulation, greed and often Fraud. (Cooking the loan books and much more)
The biggest culprit here is the Fed though - the steepest sections of this graph correlate strongly with very low interest rate regimes. What banks do makes very good sense in the context of the sandbox they are given. Right now there is no incentive to even take deposits - it is cheaper to borrow at a negative effective rate from the Fed and loan it back to the Government to misallocate, which leads to recession after recession.
I'm all for getting rid of the Fed, which you will note is NOT a government body and is comprised of Banksters! It's an insane and crude scam that Banks are able to take the gift that they have given themselves by having a negative effective rate and milking it at the people's (Government's) expense while not loaning to the people. Yes the structure is wrong. It should be changed but don't blame government. Government not truly existing is the problem. Private industry deregulated has already proven more corrupt.
Government is screwed up here because they have been bought GOP and DEM alike by big business and are populated by a revolving door of big Wall Street criminals like Larry Summers and Geitner and the rest, All former executives of the same firms that sodomized the country.
So yeah, I'm critical of Government too, but getting rid of government isn't the answer, it's already been done by selling out to Wall Street control which is why nobody went to jail for the 2008 crisis while LOTS of people went to Jail for the S&L crisis back d
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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power to the people
rite on karl
hey karl, how many different girls have you slept with?
do they all have the same response or is each one a little different?
what if you get a screamer while camping in a public campground?
duck tape?
tweezers?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2011 - 03:53pm PT
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This will probably finish the posting
+
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 3, 2011 - 11:21pm PT
Crack wrote
This is the total credit market debt from 1920 on as a percent of GDP (so it is inflation adjusted). You see, all Wall Street does is peddle whatever we produce. Unfortunately our main export in the last 25 years has been debt.
It's more complicated than that. Wall Street Created much extra debt without responsibility by loaning to people who couldn't afford it, telling them housing was only going to appreciate, and then offloading that risk from themselves by securitizing it, and then further leveraging with CDOs. They sold that crap to other suckers who had no way of knowing what was truly inside those securities and the credit-worthiness of those loans were lied about. This was made possible by deregulation, greed and often Fraud. (Cooking the loan books and much more)
The biggest culprit here is the Fed though - the steepest sections of this graph correlate strongly with very low interest rate regimes. What banks do makes very good sense in the context of the sandbox they are given. Right now there is no incentive to even take deposits - it is cheaper to borrow at a negative effective rate from the Fed and loan it back to the Government to misallocate, which leads to recession after recession.
I'm all for getting rid of the Fed, which you will note is NOT a government body and is comprised of Banksters! It's an insane and crude scam that Banks are able to take the gift that they have given themselves by having a negative effective rate and milking it at the people's (Government's) expense while not loaning to the people. Yes the structure is wrong. It should be changed but don't blame government. Government not truly existing is the problem. Private industry deregulated has already proven more corrupt.
Government is screwed up here because they have been bought GOP and DEM alike by big business and are populated by a revolving door of big Wall Street criminals like Larry Summers and Geitner and the rest, All former executives of the same firms that sodomized the country.
So yeah, I'm critical of Government too, but getting rid of government isn't the answer, it's already been done by selling out to Wall Street control which is why nobody went to jail for the 2008 crisis while LOTS of people went to Jail for the S&L crisis back during the First Bush days.
Which brings up a another point. Seems like there is this Boom Bust cycle, that seems engineered by Wall Street and the Fed that always manages to bust right at the end of a presidential term limit. Doesn't matter whether it's GOP or DEM. Dotcom busted after Clinton, housing busted at the end of Bush, Carter went out with a Bust, and then the S&L.
And after all these busts, the super-rich last-guys-standing, who have made bank on the boom, buy up all the losers in the bust.
Just watch it
Peace
Karl
Edit
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 4, 2011 - 01:04am PT
karl, how many chicks?
Lolli
Mountain climber
We lose ourselves in work to do and bills to pay
Oct 4, 2011 - 02:25am PT
I think it's pretty clear from watching the rapid economic rise of East Asia that state managed capitalism is far more efficient than the individualistic laisez faire version practiced in America. It doesn't matter if it is managed by the left (China) or the right (Singapore) or moderately democratic, center leaning, right regimes (South Korea, Japan, Taiwan), what's important is having professional economists running the country instead of hack politicians backed by selfish and greedy corporate interest who care only for their own welfare and that of their company and not the country and its people as a whole.
All of these successful economies also level the playing field by government sponsored basic services to their citizens such as education and health care.
+ North Europe
exactly.
gf
climber
Oct 4, 2011 - 02:30am PT
It's the traders who are f*#king us!
Far be from me to defend short-sellers, but all they are doing is amplifying bad calls by countries (97 asian meltdown anyone), banks or individuals.
But then again, the best way to outlaw short sellers is to outlaw poor judgment -and i don't think we can outlaw people voting repub :/
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
Oct 4, 2011 - 06:01am PT
Want to know the background of what happened to us financially?
Want to know why people are marching and protesting?
Inside Job - Download the FULL Movie
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xekoka_inside-job-download-the-full-movie_shortfilms
Good short review of the movie:
http://www.sbs.com.au/films/movie/7817/Inside-Job-
If you haven't seen this movie yet, then you must. There were 2 9-11s. One near the beginning of Bush's time in office and then the economic 9-11 right at the end. Gee, both on his watch. Who would of thunk? What are the odds of that?
gf
climber
Oct 4, 2011 - 06:07am PT
Thank goodness for the movie to tell us what happened, it just makes me want to get out in the street, wall or main and tell the man that I'm as mad as hell and aren't going to take it anymore. Oh hang on, I just noticed that the cows got out and i'd best go close the barn door. be right back
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Oct 4, 2011 - 06:38am PT
Good grief, here we go with the “general welfare” clause again as if the whole Constitution were spun around it. It is one of six clauses in a perambulatory statement explaining why the actual document was written. And while yes, it is there, it is clearly the most softly stated of the six, beginning as it does with the word “promote.” Read it again if you will.
Each of the other five clauses is stated with more assertive language, for example “provide for the common defense.” To form…, establish…, insure…, provide…, and finally to “secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity” are all more definitive statements. To promote does not mean to insure or to provide or to establish or to secure.
dirtbag
climber
Oct 4, 2011 - 06:57am PT
Yeah, the preamble doesn't really mean much.
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Oct 4, 2011 - 07:08am PT
I didn't say it doesn't mean much. I just think the words are very carefully chosen. I like words and think they have meaning.
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
Oct 4, 2011 - 07:18am PT
Then there's the little problem of the tenth amendment that overides all that proceeds.
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 4, 2011 - 09:26am PT
Yes and the top 10% of pro athletes make nearly that much relative to the other players.
To suggest the top players (richest Uhmerikuhns) do not influence the success of the NBA, MLB, NFL, NHL, etc (stock market) would be absurd. And yes, I expect nothing less than absurd from blurring.
Where would those teams be if the players making less confiscated the earnings of the top 10%?
Where they belong, playing a GAME on the streets or wherever. Not treated like gods while teachers get paid squat to dodge bullets and babysit kids who have been sold the fairytale that they can be part of the machine, a TOP athlete, if they just spend their money on Gatorade(R) or Nike(R) or whatever(R) instead of something useful and real.
spidey
Trad climber
Berkeley CA
Oct 4, 2011 - 09:29am PT
+1 for Inside Job - watched it last night, gives a great explanation for what really happened with interviews with the banksters, footage from congressional testimony, interviews with economists, etc.
Even the professional economists are in on it. They all get paid by the banksters too.
fattrad
Mountain climber
GOP Convention
Oct 4, 2011 - 09:35am PT
Karl is correct for the most part, BUT, no one points guns at the heads of consumers to buy homes, Harleys, take out more credit cards, flat screen TV's, etc. And think about all of the jobs that get created to produce those houses, cars, bikes, TV's!!!!111666
The regulators dropped the ball watching Wall ST, the street can get carried away.
Karl,
I'm still a homeless person, a squatter.
The evilone
khanom
Trad climber
The Dessert
Oct 4, 2011 - 09:38am PT
...no one points guns at the heads of consumers to buy homes, Harleys, take out more credit cards, flat screen TV's, etc.
Ever watch TV?
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
Oct 4, 2011 - 09:56am PT
The French Revolution is the template for all mob uprisings, and the signal event of that lunacy was an attack on a prison housing only half a dozen prisoners.
As best anyone can tell, the storming of the Bastille was instigated by a rumor that the laughably impotent King Louis XVI was about to stage an attack on the National Assembly. Or perhaps they were upset that the inept finance minister, Jacques Necker, had been fired. Or they thought the Bastille was an eyesore.
(The only other possible cause was recently ruled out when it was conclusively determined that France had no teachers unions in the late 18th century.)
No one is sure -- but a good time was had by all! Except the prison administrators murdered in the attack.
Liberals love mobs because rioting and anarchy is their path to power.
Making sound proposals based on facts and logic is not their metier. Issuing impossible promises to the easily fooled is their specialty. For more on this, see "The 2012 Democratic Platform."
The entire Democratic Party is currently promising to "save" Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid in their present form. According to Obama's own Treasury Secretary, Tim Geithner, in less than 10 years, spending on those three entitlement programs, plus servicing the national debt, will consume 92 cents of every dollar in the federal budget.
The Democrats are openly lying to voters. It is a mathematical impossibility for these programs to continue without major reform now, or complete bankruptcy later -- and not very much later.
But Democrats' real achievement has been in destroying the family, and thereby creating an endless supply of potential rioters.
When blacks were only four generations out of slavery, their illegitimacy rate was about 23 percent (lower than the white illegitimacy rate is now). Then Democrats decided to help them! Barely two generations since LBJ's Great Society programs began, the black illegitimacy rate has tripled to 72 percent.
Meanwhile, the white illegitimacy rate has septupled, from 4 percent to 29 percent.
Instead of a "War on Poverty," it should have been called a "War on the Family."
The vast and permanent underclass created by the welfare state is a great success story for the Democratic Party, which now has a loyal constituency of deadbeats who automatically vote for the Democrats to keep their Trojan horse "benefits" flowing.
It's the Democrats' "heroin dealer" model of government.
Apparently, it takes a lot of government workers to minister to the poor, inasmuch as government employment has skyrocketed in tandem with the family's disintegration. As long as Democrats are serving their principal constituency -- recipients of taxpayer money -- they don't care what happens to the rest of society.
They champion any mob that will increase their political power. Liberals promote welfare dependency, class warfare, endless government programs staffed with public sector workers, street protests, coddling criminals and physical attacks on their ideological opponents. This is how they create reliable Democratic voters.
True, government employees are doing jobs we don't want done, can never be fired, are bankrupting the country and periodically break out in mob violence.
True, also, that the children of broken families sometimes burn city blocks to the ground or kill their great-grandmothers with swords. But what a voting bloc!
http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2011-08-17.html
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
Oct 4, 2011 - 10:00am PT
Warning... the above link is a transvestite donkey witch masturbating to her own scat.
spidey
Trad climber
Berkeley CA
Oct 4, 2011 - 10:01am PT
Wow. what a bunch of drivel. (edit - referring to Coulter's article above)
fattrad
Mountain climber
GOP Convention
Oct 4, 2011 - 10:01am PT
TGT,
I'm not much of a Coulter fan, but she is spot on with that one. The Dems have created a permanent welfare class and the votes that go with it.
The evil one
FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Oct 4, 2011 - 10:02am PT
Kris I can't believe that you don't understand the importance of the preamble to the constitution.
Each & every word is of the utmost importance, it's setting up the whole constitution.
It was writen by Gouverneur Morris. The job was given to him for many reasons. The most important one being that Gouverneur had not signed the Declaration of Independence, because he thought that working people could not govern them selfs. Without the ruling class to govern them they would kill each other & steal what was left. By 1787 he had radical change he understood that all people have a right to self govern & that the sole job of goverment was to care for it's people.
fattrad
Mountain climber
GOP Convention
Oct 4, 2011 - 10:23am PT
Fry them with the Heat Ray.
The evil one
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 4, 2011 - 10:24am PT
See Inside job! Might as well know why our rear ends sting
Want to know the background of what happened to us financially?
Want to know why people are marching and protesting?
Inside Job - Download the FULL Movie
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xekoka_inside-job-download-the-full-movie_shortfilms
Good short review of the movie:
http://www.sbs.com.au/films/movie/7817/Inside-Job-
Edit
spidey
Trad climber
Berkeley CA
Oct 4, 2011 - 10:26am PT
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jared-bernstein/occupy-wall-st-this-is-no_b_994388.html
Occupy Wall St.: This Is Not a Head Scratcher
Last night I heard a story on NPR about the Wall St. protest that is now spreading to other cities. The gist of the story was: "what are these protests really about? What do they want?"
I'm sorry, but that's just not a head scratcher. Do these news analysts think it's a coincidence that they're occupying Wall St. as opposed to Columbus Ave north of 79th?
As Andrew Sorkin put it today (after writing that the message was "at times...hard to discern"):
... the demonstrators are seeking accountability for Wall Street and corporate America for the financial crisis and the growing economic inequality gap.
I'm not saying everyone down there is ready to give a clear exposition of the facts of the case, but commentators can stop scratching their heads now.
I've been writing about these problems for decades. Sometimes they've gotten a little better, but mostly they've gotten worse. Before the downturn, the share of income held by the top 1% was 23.5%, the highest since 1928 and more than twice the 10% level of the late 1970s.
These are growth shares, as in they have to sum to 100%-when one group's share goes up like that, everybody else's has to shrink.
That doesn't mean real income values can't rise for other groups, of course (though it does imply slower relative growth, compared to the high end). But in fact, the middle class and the poor haven't seen that either... the decade of the 2000s saw middle-incomes decline in real terms for working-age households. The recession just made those incomes fall faster.
Protest movements are often born of two interacting injustices: the lack of opportunity and the lack of accountability by the persons perceived to be blocking that opportunity.
Given the facts of the income distribution, the trends in real middle-class incomes and poverty, the failure of policy to do much to change these trends, the government bailouts of the only class that's benefited from the recovery so far, the absence of clear punishment/accountability for the financial and political institutions that helped inflate the debt bubble that continues to squeeze economies across the globe, and the dysfunctionality of the current political system (they're arguing more about whether they can keep the lights on than whether they can help solve the economic problems), the more interesting question is what took so long for such protests to show up?
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 4, 2011 - 10:36am PT
Ann C is a ^*&(()&
She decries all this additional money supposedly going to the poor! Without mentioning the MUCH GREATER increase in military spending
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=125
By Richard Kogan
Revised March 6, 2008
Some may think the President’s recent attempts to squeeze domestic appropriations are being made in response to an explosion of domestic discretionary funding during his Administration’s first six years. But this is not correct: there has been no such funding explosion for domestic discretionary programs. Between fiscal year 2001 (the last year for which appropriations levels were set under President Clinton) and fiscal year 2008, funding for domestic discretionary programs has been more constrained than any other area of the budget and has shrunk both as a share of the budget and as a share of the economy. In contrast, appropriations for defense and other security-related programs have increased more rapidly than any other area of the budget — even more rapidly than the costs of the “big three” entitlement programs: Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.
Then the Idiot writes
But Democrats' real achievement has been in destroying the family, and thereby creating an endless supply of potential rioters.
When blacks were only four generations out of slavery, their illegitimacy rate was about 23 percent (lower than the white illegitimacy rate is now). Then Democrats decided to help them! Barely two generations since LBJ's Great Society programs began, the black illegitimacy rate has tripled to 72 percent.
Meanwhile, the white illegitimacy rate has septupled, from 4 percent to 29 percent.
Of course she claims Democrats destroyed the family without any citation or evidence. You have to wonder what the illegitimacy rate would be if the GOP's position of banning Abortion were enacted.
But here's a bit more from the link regarding spending
There has been no rapid rise in funding for domestic discretionary programs in recent years; in fact these programs have shrunk both as a share of the budget and as a share of the economy.
In contrast, funding for defense and related programs has exploded. Since 2001, it has jumped at an annual average rate of 8 percent, after adjusting for inflation and population — four times faster than the average rate of growth for Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid (2 percent), and 27 times faster than the average rate for growth for domestic discretionary programs (0.3 percent).
Funding for defense and related programs has shot up by 2 percent of GDP in just seven years. It is expected to take more than two decades for Social Security to grow by 2 percent of GDP.
Even when costs for Iraq, Afghanistan, and the “global war on terror” are excluded, funding for the regular defense budget has risen at a stunning rate that dwarfs the growth rates for all parts of the domestic budget.
The combined effect of the Administration’s tax cuts and its defense spending increases (including the war) has been a budget deterioration equal to 3.3 percent of GDP since 2001. By contrast, increases in costs for all domestic programs combined have cost a little less than 0.6 percent of GDP.
The GOP has taken to talking sh#t out of context and just saying what they want you to believe, not what's true. It is the military budget that has more than doubled since 2001. Why don't they care?
Peace
karl
Ps, The "Welfare Class" doesn't vote as much as you think. Better beware if they start cause there is a lot more very poor than very rich
Edit
Dingus Milktoast
Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 4, 2011 - 10:38am PT
The GOP has taken to talking sh#t out of context and just saying what they want you to believe, not what's true. It is the military budget that has more than doubled since 2001. Why don't they care?
Because defense spending is as close as they are ever going to get to defending their country. Plenty O democrats in that lineup too. The more you spend the bigger the patriot you can pretend to be! Yee HAH!
DMT
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 4, 2011 - 10:46am PT
Everyone in this country should be required to listen to the farewell address of this Republican Military General Turned President
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY
Peace
Karl
Edit
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 4, 2011 - 11:03am PT
Karl is correct:
The poor simply do not vote, or do vote at a rate much lower than the "middle class".
And Fattrad, the fact is that American capitalism simply cannot create enough jobs for anywhere near "full" employment. In that sense, capitalism is a "failure".
So that leaves us with tens of millions of Americans who, not by choice, will never find jobs and contribute any tax dollars from earned income to society at large. FACT
So, what to do with "them"?
That question was answered over 50 years ago when "we" decided that we would not let Americans live anymore without some kind of safety net.
Safety net means "welfare", food stamps, SS and Medicare.
Now you can be an ignorant ass and say the "Dems" created this situation, but the fact is that abject poverty existed in America long long before any social programs existed.
Why don't you try pulling your head out of your ass and propose solutions to problems instead of sitting in the bleachers and repeating tired old talking points like a child.
atchafalaya
Boulder climber
Oct 4, 2011 - 11:08am PT
"Now you can be an ignorant ass and say the "Dems" created this situation, but the fact is that abject poverty existed in America long long before any social programs existed.
Why don't you try pulling your head out of your ass and propose solutions to problems instead of sitting in the bleachers and repeating tired old talking points like a child."
Because stupidity has been around even longer then poverty?
10b4me
Boulder climber
Happy Boulders
Oct 4, 2011 - 11:20am PT
reminds of the people that walk around wearing Che Guevarra t-shirts while living in a capitalist country.
but hey, I liked Che
Dingus Milktoast
Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 4, 2011 - 11:21am PT
Saw one of those guys in the Minneapolis airport last week... middle aged geezer, his Che shirt under a flannel long sleeve, (seriously) and a nice vente Star Bucks clutched in his pudgy mitt... hahahahahahaha!
DMT
Lovegasoline
Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Oct 4, 2011 - 11:26am PT
Ksolem:
Good grief, here we go with the “general welfare” clause again as if the whole Constitution were spun around it. It is one of six clauses in a perambulatory statement explaining why the actual document was written. And while yes, it is there, it is clearly the most softly stated of the six, beginning as it does with the word “promote.” Read it again if you will.
Each of the other five clauses is stated with more assertive language, for example “provide for the common defense.” To form…, establish…, insure…, provide…, and finally to “secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity” are all more definitive statements. To promote does not mean to insure or to provide or to establish or to secure.
????
Ksolem, apparently you do not possess the language skills of the framers.
Allow me to alleviate your ignorance.
Here's a language lesson for you.
promote|prəˈmōt|
verb [ trans. ]
ORIGIN late Middle English : from Latin promot- ‘moved forward,’ from the verb promovere, from pro- ‘forward, onward’ + movere ‘to move'.
1 further the progress of (something, esp. a cause, venture, or aim); support or actively encourage : some regulation is still required to promote competition.
• give publicity to (a product, organization, or venture) so as to increase sales or public awareness : they are using famous personalities to promote the library nationally.
• Chemistry act as a promoter of (a catalyst).
2 (often be promoted) advance or raise (someone) to a higher position or rank : she was promoted to general manager.
• transfer (a sports team) to a higher division of a league : they were promoted from the Third Division last season.
• Chess exchange (a pawn) for a more powerful piece of the same color, typically a queen, as part of the move in which it reaches the opponent's end of the board.
• Bridge enable (a relatively low card) to win a trick by playing off the higher ones first.
DERIVATIVES
promotability |prəˌmōtəˈbilətē| noun
promotable adjective
promotive |-tiv| adjective
That's right: PROMOTE!
Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
Oct 4, 2011 - 11:31am PT
That's pretty funny Dingus, and one reason why this well meant movement is probably ( and unfortunately) doomed for obscurity in the annals of history.
This thread has degenerated to a point where I just kinda wanna nuke it.
But that's not very democratic I guess.
CrackAddict
Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
Oct 4, 2011 - 11:32am PT
I'm all for getting rid of the Fed, which you will note is NOT a government body and is comprised of Banksters! It's an insane and crude scam that Banks are able to take the gift that they have given themselves by having a negative effective rate and milking it at the people's (Government's) expense while not loaning to the people. Yes the structure is wrong. It should be changed but don't blame government. Government not truly existing is the problem. Private industry deregulated has already proven more corrupt.
Government is screwed up here because they have been bought GOP and DEM alike by big business and are populated by a revolving door of big Wall Street criminals like Larry Summers and Geitner and the rest, All former executives of the same firms that sodomized the country.
So yeah, I'm critical of Government too, but getting rid of government isn't the answer, it's already been done by selling out to Wall Street control which is why nobody went to jail for the 2008 crisis while LOTS of people went to Jail for the S&L crisis back during the First Bush days.
Which brings up a another point. Seems like there is this Boom Bust cycle, that seems engineered by Wall Street and the Fed that always manages to bust right at the end of a presidential term limit. Doesn't matter whether it's GOP or DEM. Dotcom busted after Clinton, housing busted at the end of Bush, Carter went out with a Bust, and then the S&L.
And after all these busts, the super-rich last-guys-standing, who have made bank on the boom, buy up all the losers in the bust.
Karl, I think you are right on with many of these points, esp. about the Fed and it's interplay with the banks. But I don't believe deregulation had anything to do with our problems, and in fact I don't believe any real deregulation occured (congress chose NOT to regulate derivatives, but that is not deregulation). Getting rid of the Glass-Steagall act did nothing because banks already had workarounds. There is a strong correlation between the amount of regulation a country has and its level of corruption - politicians impose barriers, and make money by granting people exemptions to these barriers. Regulation is seldom made to solve real problems. For example, a very simple regulation that would do more than the entire Dodd-Frank is to make financial institutions carry collateral for any derivative they write, for example if a Credit Default Swap could potentially pay out $1 Million if a company defaults, the financial institution should have to keep that million in reserve (which they hate to do).
The best regulation is RISK. That means everyone plays with their own money. People who buy worthless mortgage backed securities suffer the consequences when their value goes to zero. Pension funds lose the money and have to answer to their employee unions, their managers are FIRED. A big part of our problems is this bailout entitlement, where there is an arbitrary "the loss stops here" mentality. This causes bad decisions to be reinforced, and bad money managers to double down (pension funds are now making even riskier bets to try to make up what was lost in 2008). Nothing will get better unless people have to suffer the consequences of their actions.
The boom-and-bust cycle is a simple consequence of easy money that gets misallocated. Money goes into investments that should never see the light of day, usually because of government subsidies (i.e. housing programs) and this creates a positive feedback loop in the price that always overshoots - because the price is based on projected price appreciation, not intrinsic value. When the market corrects, as it always does, this works in reverse. Sure there are losers who get "bought up" in this bust, but a fool and their money were lucky enough to get together in the first place. If you want to end (or at least minimize) this cycle, get rid of the Fed and let interest rates rise to the value the Market sets. The prime mover of the housing boom was when Bush pushed interest rates to near zero after Sept. 11. The spread between the prime rate and Fannie Mae bonds was close to 7%- guaranteed return, and of course it was far greater for sub prime. This was the updraft that caused bankers to lie, beg, borrow, steal, etc.
Captain...or Skully
climber
Where are you bound?
Oct 4, 2011 - 11:32am PT
I'd nuke it just to piss off the 'Tards.
Dingus Milktoast
Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 4, 2011 - 11:35am PT
Right on Brandon, agree with the Cap'n... nuke it. Its good for the monkeys.
DMT
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2011 - 03:55pm PT
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Sprock
hey karl, how many different girls have you slept with
If I slept with them, it means they're "different" But, like a private corporation, I don't publish my numbers
Peace
Karl
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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It's really funny that some people think the Tea Party protests are great but these are bad... LOL.
It's amazing to me that otherwise intelligent people can be so blinded and one sided.
The right wing loonies claim there is something wrong with these protests, but claim they want freedom of speech.. haha, only if it suits their interests.
I wish the Tea Partiers were more Libertarian than the lame old conservatives they of course turned out to be.
I wish these protests concentrated on the undue influence of money in our political systems and how most people are suffering but the very rich are doing better than every. But of course the left wing loonies will make it all about crazy unrelated stuff.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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But greed is good.
GOP GOP GOP GOP
BAHAHAWAHAHA
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Greed is good.
And the fact that almost 10 million American kids under 6 years old aren't getting enough to eat is even better!
Ideologically I think you should be able to keep everything your earn. But practically what happens when the rich (top 0.1%) start controlling 99% of the wealth, and get richer and richer when everyone else gets poorer and poorer. Because that's were we are headed if current trends keep going. Is that what you want?
The interviews of protesters I have heard were with recent college graduates that can't find jobs and have huge students loans (more wealth concentration). But they are just lazy welfare recipients who just want the money from other people's hard work right?
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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ford will add 6000 jobs ,
20 million minus 6000 still equals 20 million if you round off to the nearest digit
woodie guthrie, gas up the van
Woodrow Wilson "Woody" Guthrie (July 14, 1912 – October 3, 1967) is best known as an American singer-songwriter and folk musician, whose musical legacy includes hundreds of political, traditional and children's songs, ballads and improvised works. He frequently performed with the slogan This Machine Kills Fascists displayed on his guitar. His best-known song is "This Land Is Your Land". Many of his recorded songs are archived in the Library of Congress.[1] Such songwriters as Bob Dylan, Phil Ochs, Bruce Springsteen, Pete Seeger, Joe Strummer, and Tom Paxton have acknowledged their debt to Guthrie as an influence.
Guthrie traveled with migrant workers from Oklahoma to California and learned traditional folk and blues songs. Many of his songs are about his experiences in the Dust Bowl era during the Great Depression, earning him the nickname the "Dust Bowl Troubadour".[2] Throughout his life Guthrie was associated with United States communist groups, though he was seemingly not a member of any.[3]
Guthrie was married three times and fathered eight children, including American folk musician Arlo Guthrie. He is the grandfather of musician Sarah Lee Guthrie.[4] Guthrie died from complications of Huntington's disease, a progressive genetic neurological disorder. During his later years, in spite of his illness, Guthrie served as a figurehead in the folk movement, providing inspiration to a generation of new folk musicians, including mentor relationships with Ramblin' Jack Elliott and Bob Dylan.
Woody Guthrie was inducted into the Oklahoma Music Hall of Fame in 1997.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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you are jesus
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2011 - 04:38pm PT
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Rox, after this post it bumps to a whole new clean page and all good
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2011 - 04:41pm PT
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Skip
Those who think that backing this two bit mob rule will ever get you anything other than people calling for beheading others are fooling yourselves.
We have seen where mob rule goes.
So non-violent protest is "Mob Rule" And just how is this different than those beloved Tea Party protests?
Fatty
So, you want to place zero blame on those that took out all of the credit and enjoyed the benefits? ???
Benefits like being underwater on your house and getting forclosed on anyway? They were the chumps that got sold. They are as much to blame as soldiers shot in the war are for foreign policy. THey signed up right?
PEace
Karl
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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stocks are up
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2011 - 06:41pm PT
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Karl,
There were quite a few people warning the public against buying homes during the feeding frenzy, you here on this very forum. I did in my local paper, no, most of these people just made poor decisions and should honor their liabilities.
The evil one
I'm just saying I'm not putting them to "Blame" which is the word you used. They might have to honor their liabilities (or walk away from their homes, an option legally open to them just like BK is for companies) but they are no more to blame than the soldiers who signed up for a war on terrorists and wound up serving in Iraq which never attacked us.
Those guys are still obligated to Die if ordered to do dangerous duty in Iraq but that doesn't make it right nor does it excuse the lying cheating scumbags who sent them over there knowing it wasn't really about WMDs
The bankers pulled a scam due to greed and should be investigated more thoroughly, not just bailed out and continuing to pull in millions per year.
Peace
Karl
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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The bankers pulled a scam due to greed and should be investigated more thoroughly, not just bailed out and continuing to pull in millions per year.
That 'll never happen Barry's in bed with 'em.
and Eric is too busy trying to cover his own tracks anyway.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Fatty,
TARP was only a small fraction of the bailout+stimulus. So no, it has not been paid back.
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