Cerro Torre, A Mountain Consecrated - The Resurrection of th

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rolo

climber

Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 19, 2012 - 05:49pm PT

Since the title of the earlier thread regarding this ascent was wrong I figured it would be best to start a new one.

Here are the facts:

Hayden Kennedy and Jason Kruk made a very fast ascent (13 hours from the Col of Patience to the top) of the SE ridge of Cerro Torre on what for sometime we have been calling "fair means" style, which implies not using Maestri's insane bolt ladders. We presume they used some of Maestri's belays but in pitches only clipped 5 bolts, four placed by Ermanno Salvaterra on his 1999 variation and one placed by Chris Geisler on his and Jason's variations last season.

They followed an identical line to the one climbed by Chris and Jason last year, making a pendulum left in Chris's last pitch, to connect a number of discontinuous features over three short pitches to reach the top (5.11+ and A2) .

During the descent they chopped a good portion of the Compressor route, including the entire headwall and one of the pitches below. The Compressor route is no more.

I have already expressed what I think about chopping the bolts a number of times, including in a 2007 Rock and Ice article reprinted here:
http://www.pataclimb.com/knowledge/articles/CTbolts.html

A quote from that article:
When asked about the Compressor Route, the legendary Slovene climber Silvo Karo, responsible for two new routes and one major link up on Cerro Torre, responded, “That climb was stolen from the future. Without all those bolts the history of that marvelous mountain would have been very different. I am convinced that in alpinism how you have climbed is more important than what you have climbed, and I have no doubt that the best are those that leave the least amount of stuff behind.” Surprisingly, Maestri agreed with the last part of Karo’s statement. In his 2000 Metri della Nostra Vita, Maestri recounts that, before making the first rappel from the high point of his attempt (he stopped 100 feet below the summit) he decided to, “take out all the bolts and leave the climb as clean as we found it. I’ll break them all.” After chopping 20 bolts, and in the face of the magnitude of the enterprise, Maestri changed his mind. Mario Conti, responsible in 1974 for what is now known to be the first ascent of the Cerro Torre, agrees, writing in the 2006 book Enigma Cerro Torre, “Only by taking out the bolts one can imagine the mountain as it was, as it should still be.”

Now the mountain is much closer to being, in Conti's words, "as it was, and it should be".

I am impressed beyond words by Jason and Hayden's incredible ascent, and will be forever in-debt and grateful to them for taking this game-changing leap. The future of alpinism is bright when we have such young and brilliant "heroes".

Yesterday evening, walking out of the Cerro Torre valley for the hundredth and some time, I turned around many times to look up at a mountain, an incredibly beautiful peak, one that I could finally see as it truly is.

Johnny K.

climber

Jan 19, 2012 - 05:50pm PT

Amazing,Much respect.Congratulations the spectacular ascent in 13 hours,damn,and the clean up of Maestri's mierda.

Gene

climber

Jan 19, 2012 - 05:51pm PT

During the descent they chopped a good portion of the Compressor route, including the entire headwall and one of the pitches below. The Compressor route is no more.

Wow!!! Thanks for the report. It looks like not all of your text made it though.

EDIT: Is that damn compressor still up there?

Ghost

climber

A long way from where I started

Jan 19, 2012 - 05:52pm PT

Whoo hoo!

Well done.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jan 19, 2012 - 06:15pm PT

Rolo's title is perhaps derived from Ken Wilson's famous article in Mountain 23 - "Cerro Torre: A Mountain Desecreated".

It must have been a lot of work, removing all those bolts, even if they were 40 years old.

Congratulations to Jason and Hayden for an impressive climb! The removal of the bolts is sure to cause controversy, but so it goes. It sounds like the route taken was similar to that used by Haston, Crew et al in 1968 (the first attempt on the ridge), to their high point, and perhaps not far from what they would've taken to the top, had they not dropped their bolt kit.

Clyde

Mountain climber

Boulder

Jan 19, 2012 - 06:20pm PT

Thanks Rolo.

Bonus style points for the chopping! Good job youth.

Brian

climber

California

Jan 19, 2012 - 06:34pm PT

Bravo! Well done.

bmacd

Mountain climber

100% Canadian

Jan 19, 2012 - 06:53pm PT

Major Bonus points for chopping bolts on the descent, totally awesome Jason !

Brandon-

climber

The Granite State.

Jan 19, 2012 - 07:01pm PT

A bold ascent, and an equally bold descent.

That's awesome, hats off.

squishy

Mountain climber

Jan 19, 2012 - 07:11pm PT

I guess the beta needs to be changed eh?

Pro. A via ferrata kit, whichever you like best. Any brand will work. Since Maestri has already drilled plenty of “courage” into the rock you can leave yours at home.

http://pataclimb.com/climbingareas/chalten/torregroup/torre/SEridge.html

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Jan 19, 2012 - 07:15pm PT

Hmmmm, lots to think about here.

Great job on the ascent and the climb, that's for sure. Well done, lads.

Now, what about chopping the bolts? I have never approved of Maestri's attempt. I hate bolts, incidentally. I have never placed a bolt on lead or rappel in my life, nor any chicken rivets or the like. I once added a rivet on a route when I ripped the only flake you could hook, and there was no other way to repeat the route without a cheat stick.

I have, however, removed a lot of bolts, and replaced a lot of bolts, mostly at belays, along with a few rivets mid-pitch. When we're repairing routes on El Cap, we take a tuning fork to a bolt, carefully pry it out of the rock along with its hanger, and then either drill the hole out from quarter-inch to three-eights and refill it with a 3/8" bolt, or else fill the hole with epoxy, rendering it pretty much invisible. You have this luxury when you are climbing in a pair of shorts, you see.

It's different in the mountains, of course, it's a hostile environment and you don't have as much time. Were Maestri's bolts just chopped off with a chisel? Do we have any before and after photos? And I'm knott criticizing, I'm merely asking. I have seen some damned ugly chopped bolts. As per buddy's question below, if you "chop" a bolt with a chisel, the bolt remains in the hole, and you are left with an unsightly hunk of metal. Now on a sunny crag, it might be unsightly. On a frozen wasteland like Cerro Torre, it might well be invisible. So just askin'....

So what will the "Regular Route" up Cerro Torre now be? How much harder is it than the Compressor Route? How many ascents has the Compressor Route received, and on average, how many per season?

Cheers, eh?

norm larson

climber

wilson, wyoming

Jan 19, 2012 - 07:22pm PT

Thanks Rolo for that concise update. Well done to Hayden and Jason. It's a long time coming. It's interesting to conjecture what the story of the Torre would have been if Maestri had never put those bolts in. I'm sure someone would have found a cleaner way up the SE ridge many years ago if they hadn't been there..they defiantely turned it into the "line of least resistance".

rolo

climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 19, 2012 - 07:29pm PT

in response to Pete's questions, the bolts are "preassure pins" of sorts, a sort of glorified rivet. When you hit them from the top with a hammer the whole bolt comes out like butter. Three to seven blows is enough.

No they did not fill the holes. Eventually it would be a good thing to do.

as far as to what the "normal route" up CT is now, that would be the outstanding Ragni route in the west face.

cheers

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Jan 19, 2012 - 07:45pm PT

OK, cool. Thanks, Rolo. That's good, the holes can be filled when someone has time and good weather. A stick of epoxy is knott all that heavy.

MarkWestman

Trad climber

Talkeetna, Alaska

Jan 19, 2012 - 08:25pm PT

Thanks for the update, Rolo.

Are the original rappel stations for descending this way still intact as is, or are there now new variations?

Gene

climber

Jan 19, 2012 - 08:38pm PT

Let's not get sidetracked here. The fact that that such an amazing line – one of the best in the world - was recently climbed without use of bolts set by a freaking gas powered compressor far and away trumps whether the chopped bolt holes were filled. Come on, guys. Which is the bigger insult to what we believe in as climbers - hundreds of power-driven bolts or not filling their now chopped holes?

g

Stefan Jacobsen

Trad climber

Danmark

Jan 19, 2012 - 08:43pm PT

Thanks to Kennedy and Kruk for chopping parts of the route!
At present the holes are of insignificant concern compared with the bloody compressor. But maybe successive teams will continue the cleaning up. Time will show.

The Alpine

Big Wall climber

Jan 19, 2012 - 08:57pm PT

Hmmm, not sure how I feel about the chopping of the route. A selfish me thinks its awesome.

Gregory Crouch

Social climber

Walnut Creek, California

Jan 19, 2012 - 09:20pm PT

Wow, incredible stuff. I'll confess to mixed feelings about the chopping, however.

Johnny K.

climber

Jan 19, 2012 - 09:22pm PT

The only insult is the unnecessary bolts and trash insulting the mountains left by coward climbers.

The chopping by Hayden,Kruk,Rolo and others are only helping clean up and showing respect to the beautiful mountains.

Maestri chopped his own bolt ladder on rappel at his high point while claiming the first ascent without even reaching the summit,he didnt even let his partner come to the high point before they rapped and chopped their own bolts on the way down.To hell with Maestri and his history and his contrived route,the compressor needs to be brought down and disposed of,as well as all the other trash left by pathetic climbers.Lama wants to rap bolt a section up there also,on top of all the bs he and rebull have made already.These people are insulting.Trashing the mountains with bolts and gear is the ultimate insult.

I applaud and commend anyone who cleans up trash from the beautiful mountains.So what they chopped the bolts but didnt fill them in yet,its a long process overall.They are doing something positive.Unlike all the big talkers online.

Gene

climber

Jan 19, 2012 - 09:27pm PT

I'll confess to mixed feelings about the chopping, however.

Understood. Tough call. Doubt that replacing the chopped bolts will be high on anybody's to-do list. But calling out Hayden and Jason for probably not filling chopped bolt holes strikes me as silly.

But that's just me.

Cheers all,
g

klk

Trad climber

cali

Jan 19, 2012 - 09:27pm PT

amazing ascent. and tx to the rolo for the post.

one of the most famous undones on on of the most famous peaks in the world in an area that's had a lot of visitation from really good teams.

i don't much care about the bolt holes-- this isn't el cap. high alpine environment, the tiny quantity of granite displaced by those studs is a fraction of what weathers off each year.

i understand randy's qualms about the route itself, though. in a weird way, it had become a sort of historic landscape. we don't line up to chop WW1 via ferrata in the Dolomites.

on the other hand, this is THE route that was in some ways the pinnacle of the mauerhakenstreit of the early 20th century and the bolt wars that followed. it seems to have been the immediate inspiration for messner's "murder of the impossible" exercise, and it was one of the major examples in the siege/alpine debates that i grew up with. the chop is in keeping with the seventies retro of the ascent.

the chop certainly changes the game-- no one is going to casually clip up that old tat in order to engineer a top-down free ascent. of course, that raises still more questions.

Oplopanax

Mountain climber

The Deep Woods

Jan 19, 2012 - 09:53pm PT

Now it's been decompressed.

Gregory Crouch

Social climber

Walnut Creek, California

Jan 19, 2012 - 09:55pm PT

Here are some of my initial thoughts... and I'd also like to point out that I'm not upset, nor taking sides in this... I haven't been active in Patagonia in a decade, and Rolo, for one, is a friend I much admire and respect...

I just posted 'em here...http://gregcrouch.com/2012/the-compressor-route-chopped

Here's the nut of it: I confess to having mixed feelings about the chopping. I’m sure I can get used to the idea, and the mountain is certainly closer to its original state than it was a few days ago, but on the other hand, it’s the end of an incredible story, and I think “the story” might be the thing I like most about climbing — whether mine or someone else’s.

Standing on top of Maestri’s Compressor is the most bizarre thing I’ve ever experienced, and I’m a little saddened that opportunity isn’t in the world any longer.

(I’m actually fool enough to have been there twice.)

SteveW

Trad climber

The state of confusion

Jan 19, 2012 - 09:55pm PT

Rolo
You've had so much to do with this--it's incredible to hear
that it is now 'decompressed'!!!!

johngenx

climber

Jan 19, 2012 - 10:13pm PT

Superb work. All of it.

shipoopoi

Big Wall climber

oakland

Jan 19, 2012 - 10:56pm PT

that's fukin bullshite that they chopped the compressor route. i can just envision expeditions arriving now, intent on the compressor, only to get their dreams dished by these radical purist. i'm really dissapointed at whoever talked hayden and partner into this desecration. i don't give a fuk about what and how they climbed it, they fuked a historical route that was put up way before they were born. kids have no clue.
to hayden, i hope these are the last bolts that you will ever chop.
you been to patagonia and argentina like what, 2 or 3 times? steve schneider

rolo

climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 19, 2012 - 11:18pm PT

Nobody talked Jason and Hayden into it. To think that is to question two truly independent and visionary minds. I for one did not know until after the fact.

Regarding Greg's point, the story is still very much there. That will never go away. The story just got better.

shipoopoi

Big Wall climber

oakland

Jan 19, 2012 - 11:23pm PT

the story got BIGGER, not neccesarily better. ss

couchmaster

climber

pdx

Jan 19, 2012 - 11:28pm PT

...and they used bolts on their ascent....hmmmm, but those are fine. Maybe those were American bolts whereas the others were Italian. That would explain why they only chopped some. I'm sure all Americans agree that would be fine then.

We presume they used some of Maestri's belays but in pitches only clipped 5 bolts, four placed by Ermanno Salvaterra on his 1999 variation and one placed by Chris Geisler on his and Jason's variations last season.

Rolo, are you teasing us here? Perhaps it should have been left to the locals. What is next, a rappel chop job of Hardings bolt line on El Cap?

In either case, bolt discussions are like farts in the wind, they stink but briefly and are of truly little importance. Although sometimes they are loud, and can leave some sh#t behind after they blow away.

TwistedCrank

climber

Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom

Jan 19, 2012 - 11:31pm PT

The drama is beyond the pale.

gmmcdoug

Mountain climber

Calgary AB

Jan 19, 2012 - 11:33pm PT

I am severely sad and dissapointed in the selfish acts of the "superstars". This was a historic route. To those climbing 5.12 it may have just been a via ferrata. But at the same time Rolo, were you able to climb the compressor route free? Why should a historical route that is so surrounded by controversy be removed, because of one side of the story? It is no different from you imposing your values on anyone. Sounds sort of like a dictatorship don't you think? Deciding what is best for everyone?
Class would have been climbing the route, showing it could be done, and then leaving it for others to decide. Not arbitrarily chopping a piece of climbing history (even if it was lies and ethically challenged). There is a certain example set by being the bigger person. What these two did was no different than what Maestri did by chopping the last rock pitch of the climb. They are in exactly the same category. They were saying I did it, and only I can do it. Same statement as Maestri was making.
Aren't climbing routes the property of the community? For mere mortals it was history.
It was a route that should have never been established in the first place but it was. Chopping the route was a disservice to those who have climbed it before and the first real ascent of it by Bridwell.
Again who are you to play the ethical police to anyone? I climb what what I climb because I enjoy it. The best climber is the one having the most fun. So again I ask, what gave them the right to be Team America (or Canada) World Police (F*#k Yeah)
The Fair means ascent by world standards is far less of a contribution than that of curing cancer, at the end it shows us to dream but it is also it the masturbation of the ego for the climbers, further stoking their own egos by taking something away from others.
I believe in climbing ethics, but I believe in freedom of choice and not imposing my views on anyone. I have read the controversy about the peak and it fascinated me. I will no longer have the right to go and climb the route and make my own judgements about it. The accomplishment of these climbers is fantastic but they had no right to remove it.
Sincerely
Greg

Hawkeye

climber

State of Mine

Jan 19, 2012 - 11:36pm PT

so when is someone going to chop all those additional bolts on elcap? is it not the same thing but on a different scale? should we applaud the team that removes all the extra bolts on the salathe?

gmmcdoug

Mountain climber

Calgary AB

Jan 19, 2012 - 11:41pm PT

F*ckin chop them all. After all the guys who climbed it before couldn't climb for shitte since they had to place bolts.

Gene

climber

Jan 19, 2012 - 11:44pm PT

Did something similar to the East Face of Washington Column morphing into Astroman just happen?

g

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jan 19, 2012 - 11:44pm PT

Once we have Jason's and Hayden's own report on their climb and what they did, we'll have more to discuss. They're both widely experienced and well rooted climbers, and I'd like to hear what they have to say.

shipoopoi

Big Wall climber

oakland

Jan 19, 2012 - 11:44pm PT

i think gmmcdoug makes some great points that i am too pissed to try and make. yeah, a whole slew of people are denied this route, at least until it gets put back up again. that's right, big fuking bolt war coming up.

i hear the superstars were last seen having a conversation with

the police in el chalten. i won't speculate about what. ss

klk

Trad climber

cali

Jan 19, 2012 - 11:45pm PT

They are in exactly the same category. They were saying I did it, and only I can do it. Same statement as Maestri was making.

Except that Maestri didn't climb it.

Probably.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 19, 2012 - 11:48pm PT

The imposition was Maestri's not Kruk & Kennedy. Good on them for cleaning up an historic disgrace.

Now you are free to go impose your will on it.
Remember history is watching.

gmmcdoug

Mountain climber

Calgary AB

Jan 19, 2012 - 11:51pm PT

True, then I guess Bridwell didn't either... or Greg or anyone else who climbed it.
Point is, it has been climbed once, the Compressor was a historical route. Pure and simply, I feel I am smart enough to make up my own mind about the merits of the route. But I don't appreciate the hypocrisy of chopping the route.
I do not support the route or the establishment but this goes to the point of someone dictating to me what I climb.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 20, 2012 - 12:00am PT

The hypocrisy was in the placing of the bolts not in the removal,

sac

Trad climber

Sun Coast B.C.

Jan 20, 2012 - 12:06am PT

I do not support the route or the establishment but this goes to the point of someone dictating to me what I climb.

Perhaps you don't have to worry about that anymore...

The Larry

climber

Moab, UT

Jan 20, 2012 - 12:12am PT

Damn, and I just bought a double set of quickdraws for that route.

michaelj

Trad climber

San Francisco, CA

Jan 20, 2012 - 12:18am PT

I don't have a dog in this fight, but wouldn't it have been better style to chop ground-up?

Clint Cummins

Trad climber

SF Bay area, CA

Jan 20, 2012 - 12:22am PT

From the online guide site:
http://pataclimb.com/climbingareas/chalten/torregroup/torre/SEridge.html#fair

The 1968 Crew and 1999 Salvaterra line is up the A2 and 6a+ above "R10".
1970 Maestri line is the A1e bolt ladders right of R10.

survival

Big Wall climber

A Token of My Extreme

Jan 20, 2012 - 12:28am PT

This is a great story.

I'm interested Steve, to hear what your thoughts are, beside being angry.

I would have left them. Are the big dogs afraid that people would keep climbing them? And how would that hurt them?

They wouldn't have diminished my new route in any way.

Sounds a bit like the gym. "Dude you used a green hold! I thought you were trying to send the yellow route!"

Or the old bouldering circuit. "Hey man, that crimp is off route."

JohnnyG

climber

Jan 20, 2012 - 12:29am PT

I've always wanted to climb that route...but I guess I don't easily have the option anymore. Anyone else out there like me? You know, there is so much history with that route. I thought it would be cool to check it out.

So, how many folks climbed it in a normal season?

shipoopoi

Big Wall climber

oakland

Jan 20, 2012 - 12:48am PT

survival, i've got a Huge history with that route. four separate expeditions to chalten over a dozen years, never with much luck, but with a lot of expense. i got highest with dave turner on my third expedition. we got to pitch 8. way below the maestri bolt ladders.

i've argued for this route in the mags before, and always against rolo. rolo is a guy i still consider a friend and who i respect the hell out of not for just his exploits, but his attitudes in the mountains. but, we are, unfortunately, at opposite ends of this spectrum.

it's a historic route, even if it was put up in bad style, lots of things were, who are we to judge 40 years later.

there are literally stacks of expeditions lined up to do this route each season. some probably down there right now. and some not very happy with the american cowboys who chopped the route they just came to do. i hope everybody down there can be civil about this.

to use the standards of today on the routes of yesterday just doesn't make much sense to me.

rolo, i hope you are happy. i know this is what you really wanted. ss

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jan 20, 2012 - 12:50am PT

Umm, there were two involved - Jason Kruk (Canada) and Hayden Kennedy (USA). (OK, Hayden's father was born a Canadian, or Canada/US citizen, IIRC, but whatever.)

We can speculate about the climb, what they did, and the consequences, but facts are helpful.

Ben Harland

Gym climber

Kenora, ON

Jan 20, 2012 - 12:51am PT

Did they chop the compressor itself? Where is it now? If it gets re-bolted, will they haul the original back up there?

Interesting story indeed!

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 20, 2012 - 12:54am PT

Coz man big props for all you have done.
But... While most of us from BITD are doing geritol shooters and looking for the metamucil, great alpinism is a youth's pursuit. I for one am heartened that the bar has been set so high by these young leopards. And I really hope no one is fool enough to go re-bolt it.

Steve can drone a dirge and dance in his dandies for all the good it will do.
His big concern is I believe commercial. All those "climbers" coming from around the world and lined up to get hauled up one route. How much was the guide fee for the Compressor Route? Just a guess but there is probably one or two other climbs around.
Well the summit of Cerro Torre is still there and all you have to be is good enough to earn it.
I for one have always felt that some summits should be earned and not bought. I know a few too many credit card climbers who's greatest ability to accomplish the climbs they went on was their ability to pay the price of admission. That is not alpinism it is commercial climbing.
I know that I am just old and in the way, never did anything worth a damn and should probably keep it to my self but I applaud both their climb up and their clean down.

crunch

Social climber

Jan 20, 2012 - 01:05am PT

Did they chop the compressor itself? Where is it now?

Chessler is gonna put it up on eBay just as soon as he gets a few signatures--Rolo, Bridwell, Hugo Chavez.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jan 20, 2012 - 01:06am PT

What was reported by Colin Haley on January 17th, 2012, and is apparently on his FaceBook page:

"BIG NEWS: Although Jorge and I unfortunately fluffed this weather window, today we got to watch history being made through a Canon G12 zoom lens at Norwegos: Hayden Kennedy and Jason Kruk made the first fair-means ascent of the SE Ridge of Cerro Torre. Although I'm not 100% sure about the details, I think they took about 13 hours to the summit from a bivy at the shoulder, which is amazingly fast considering the terrain. The speed with which they navigated virgin ground on the upper headwall is certainly testament to Hayden's great skills on rock. Bravo! They might be in the mountains several more days (more good weather coming), but I'm sure we'll hear the details soon!"

http://e9climbing.blogspot.com/2012/01/cerro-torre-sans-bolts.html (underlining added)

Perhaps Rolo has additional sources.

guest

climber

Jan 20, 2012 - 01:11am PT

Fantastic climb by Hayden and Jason, and I think it's fair enough to return the route to closer to its natural state. If it's fair to indiscriminately blast bolts in, shouldn't it logically be fair to remove them? My opinion, one of many -- no clear answers. Though well put by Phil: "The imposition was Maestri's not Kruk & Kennedy. Good on them for cleaning up an historic disgrace."

To those so vehemently opposed to chopping the via ferrata, I wonder... I don't give credit to claims such as Steve's: "a whole slew of people are denied this route." What, so people have some inalienable *right* to climb a mountain that they otherwise cannot, by fair means, ascend? I wholeheartedly disagree.

Likewise, the lack of an escalator up the thing denies hikers from reaching the summit. Side note: the "elitist" accusations about Hayden & Jason are absurd; every person reading this is "elitist" if they, as a climber, do not want escalators, elevators, and helicopters to the summits -- I mean, hey, why should mall-walkers be denied a chance to also stand atop Cerro Torre (or: insert name of your favorite technical summit here)? Somewhere along our climbing spectrum lies an accepted use of technology -- sticky rubber, stretchy ropes, bolts when needed -- and nobody who has actually seen the Compressor Route themselves could, in any rational way, try to claim that Maestri's line of bolts comes anywhere close to reasonable. It's bizarre, outlandish. Maestri was a great climber, but his Compressor Route was insane; perhaps he was insane, or just maniacally obsessed with Cerro Torre. To read some of the history of him and CT is fascinating. Bolt ladders beside perfect cracks. 400 bolts on a route that could reasonably use, I dunno, 20? Fewer? Sure, it's still "hard" because it's Cerro Torre. So what. That's meaningless. Riding my bike to the Estes Park post office in winter is hard, with the wind and all. I do know what I'm talking about here -- I've seen the Compressor Route up-close, as I rapped past its never-ending line of bolts after climbing CT a different way in 2007 -- within the spectrum of natural difficulty that exists on CT, only the most self-delusional could consider the Compressor Route anything but a travesty and a rape of the mountain.

We roll our eyes at people getting dragged up Everest with oxygen and Sherpas short-roping them the whole way up. Ahhhh, but when it comes a mountain we actually want to climb, like Cerro Torre, then we consider an equally unfair means of ascent -- like Maestri's abomination -- to be something that should stay? Fine if you want to climb it, I think, and I can understand the "it's there, might as well leave it" sentiment. But to look at it rationally, I think it's also fair to understand the sentiment of removing it. To get so indignant, Steve and others, about a bolt ladder route being removed, so upset that you're fuming and unable to see the other side of the issue, well, I think it's completely irrational.

I, for one, love the idea of a mountain being so steep, so difficult, so imposing from all sides, that there is no easy way to its summit; or even the notion that it is simply too difficult to climb until we are good enough, and so we walk away. It's a very different attitude than even the great Cesare Maestri had on his attempt, but I think it's a valuable attitude nonetheless. Bravo, Hayden and Jason.

--Kelly Cordes (sorry, my name doesn't appear with how I signed up on ST years ago)

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Jan 20, 2012 - 01:18am PT

The boys made a bold correction. The bolts were a monument to narrow self-interest and unchecked ego. They had no place in wild mountains. To venerate them is to celebrate hybris. Maestri sold his soul. As for their historical value, many more of us will get to witness and contemplate them and their story in a museum than on the headwall of Cerro Torre.

Those who defend the existence of the bolts as some sort of in situ climbing archaeology should remember that these bolts were not placed in the spirit of exploration and adventure, but in a selfish force of ego. Should fixed ropes and discarded oxygen cylinders be left on 8000-meter peaks because they contribute to historical context?

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 20, 2012 - 01:29am PT

Thanx Sketch, your perspective is a weighty one.

I, for one, love the idea of a mountain being so steep, so difficult, so imposing from all sides, that there is no easy way to its summit; or even the notion that it is simply too difficult to climb until we are good enough, and so we walk away. It's a very different attitude than even the great Cesare Maestri had on his attempt, but I think it's a valuable attitude nonetheless. Bravo, Hayden and Jason.

Since when, as a young developing climber, I heard the whispered tale of what was then called the hardest summit in the world, Cerro Torre was seared into my very being as the ultimate quest for purity and aesthetics in alpinism. Conversely The compressor Route has always been an insult and an abomination to me. Those who have ascended it's historic passage have lost nothing. Those who would claim to have lost the chance probably never really had much of one.

crunch

Social climber

Jan 20, 2012 - 01:33am PT

Yeah!

Beautifully put.

I can see how there is a precedent set with the bolt route being long-established, popular, historic and how maybe it should be grandfathered in and all. My head figures someone will go back up and re-establish the route. My heart agrees with Kelly.

Gregory Crouch

Social climber

Walnut Creek, California

Jan 20, 2012 - 01:35am PT

Kudos to Kelly for putting his name to his post.

shipoopoi

Big Wall climber

oakland

Jan 20, 2012 - 01:36am PT

kelly/guest, that's some beautiful thoughts you got on this issue. i think all of us are enraptured by this peak. if i got my panties in a bunch over this issue, i can tell you that, at least they are nice pink panties.
kelly, i've met you a bit and totally respect the shite you have done. especially for a freaking welterweight or whatever you were.
so, i'll think about what you are saying, and hope you can see that i might have a point or two also. ss

survival

Big Wall climber

A Token of My Extreme

Jan 20, 2012 - 01:38am PT

to use the standards of today on the routes of yesterday just doesn't make much sense to me.

That was kind of my point. Although all seem to agree that the compressor was put up in bogus style, I just don't see how it's existence, or even climbers less-than-you climbing it, takes away from you climbing CT in the most bitchin' style, by the most bitchin' route you want.

mission

Social climber

boulder,co

Jan 20, 2012 - 01:49am PT

I agree with Kelly. Isn't Cerro Torre so much more rad, knowing that there's no 5.10 A1 clip-up on it? .

fsck

climber

Jan 20, 2012 - 02:14am PT

i just couldn't bring myself to put a serious bid on maestri's compressor. i've saw the photos and it seems like there's just too much work to put into it to get it running again. i really don't want to shell out for a brand new compressor but that thing looks like it's been out in the elements for a while and i just don't think it's reliable anymore.

jfs

Trad climber

Upper Leftish

Jan 20, 2012 - 02:30am PT

Ever see the "if you don't like the retro bolts on route Such-n-Such, then just don't clip them" argument? Not a direct comparison here of course, but the thought process is the same. Added bolts (or excess bolts) undeniably change the character of the climb and the peak and any actions surrounding them. Unavoidably. Claiming otherwise is, I think, denying the obvious. Maestri robbed the generations following him of the opportunity to compete on the same pure playing field as he attempted to.

Admittedly, I have a double standard and do place alpine climbs in a different, idealized category. I clip bolts and wank around on sport routes as often as most people around here probably, but when it comes to "our" prized peaks, I love that quaint (?) ideal of the survival and preservation (or resurrection ... as the case may be) of the impossible. There is no denying that Maestri's route crossed a line somewhere. Where precisely that ethical line in the sand is (or was) could be debated ad nauseam here. But it was crossed.

I love the fact that if I one day get the opportunity to climb CT, I can do so (or fail?) without having that bolt ladder laughing in my face while I do so. Call it my own insecurity or sorry weakness, but I don't want that "easy out" anywhere near me on something as iconic and beautiful as Cerro Torre. I want to to fail and fail with no option other than to accept my failure as the weakness that it was. Or succeed and know that I succeeded on even terms with the mountain. A line of bolts to either climb, or bail from, changes the whole equation. Changes all the thought processes and decisions involved.

If nothing else, its existence gave somewhat implied permission to others who feel the need to reduce the mountain to just another playground to fill up with their own bolts. Removing them is a statement about the community's view of that kind of thing. That's reason enough to pull them out if you ask me.

Yeah, I know that's all quaint and cliche. Suck it. ;-)

Kinobi

climber

Jan 20, 2012 - 04:24am PT

I am pretty sure Maestri does not give too much sh#t for what they did.
Acutally real men, chops on bolts on lead, not on rappel.
And real men, use the same gear the people they want to criticize used.

Before talking any further sh#t on Maestri, go there, climb the line with leather boots, and with 1970 gear (no cams, of course).

Leave your GTX jackets home too.

Greetings
Emanuele

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 20, 2012 - 04:41am PT

...only to get their dreams dished by these radical purists.

God forbid anyone should arrive to find the rock in closer to the same condition Maestri found it in. Being able to stand on a compressor mid-route may be a [bankable] part of our [commercial] history but it has, in every respect, been one of collective embarrassment that it took this long to clean up.

Hope is clearly not lost on this new generation of alpinists.

Studly

Trad climber

Jan 20, 2012 - 05:18am PT

Did the Argentines agree to this? This is their mountain, their route, in their country. We as American climbers are guests. How is it that we know best what is right for Cerro Torre? Are our ethics higher and loftier then everyone elses?

Stefan Jacobsen

Trad climber

Danmark

Jan 20, 2012 - 05:33am PT

Studly, did the Argentinians approve of the bolting in the first place?

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 20, 2012 - 05:59am PT

After the "insane" Maestri's bolts, I wonder when will be the turn of "insane" Harding's bolts on the Nose ...

Hayden Kennedy and Jason Kruk claimed they only clipped five bolts, so, they used other five bolts.

I see a lot of inconsistencies in the whole "fair means" issue and in this insane crusade.

By the way .. which is the proof of their performance?
Do they have a video?

Thanks

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 20, 2012 - 06:14am PT

By the way .. which is the proof of their performance?

Well, unless they left a spray of video bolts off to the side or a large chunk of junk you can stand on near their supposed high point, I'm guessing we'll never really know if they actually even made an attempt let alone climbed it.

And as a sidebar: the lost economic opportunity associated with this massacree is probably going to sink the Argentine economy for sure. But then, some guide will probably rebolt it - what with flights and hotels having been paid for after all - and, hey, they could save the country in the process.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 20, 2012 - 06:39am PT

healyje

if you check on Rolo's website, he doubts about climbers' first ascents if they don't have an undisputable proof. Even a picture with a stormy weather is not sufficient.

So, if these "egoless" guys, who "purified" the Compressor route, want some credibility, according to Garibotti's standards, they should provide at least a video ... :-)

mcreel

climber

Barcelona

Jan 20, 2012 - 07:46am PT

I've heard there's a bolt in the Texas Flake chimney...

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 20, 2012 - 08:07am PT

Hayden Kennedy and Jason Kruk can carry on their mission on their own country and remove the bolts on the Nose ...
Go ahead chaps!

YoungGun

climber

North

Jan 20, 2012 - 08:19am PT

chopping story hits Alpinist:

http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web12w/newswire-compressor-kennedy-kruk-flash

TwistedCrank

climber

Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom

Jan 20, 2012 - 08:33am PT

All this hand-wringing and chest-thumping aside - I'd sure like to hear Maestri's reaction. That chap was alway good for a sound bite or two.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 20, 2012 - 09:04am PT

Enzo, they were watched climbing by Colin Haley.
Proof enough for any reasonable person.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 20, 2012 - 09:20am PT

So,
the first big news was that they climbed the route free.
Then that instead, that they climbed it boltless.
Then that they clipped five bolts.
Then that, on the rappel, they chopped most of the bolts.

Cerro Torre is quite big piece of rock and ice, but Haley, I guess from the bottom, monitored carefully that they didn't clip the bolts. This should the proof of their "exploit".

Am I correct?

Is this really alpinism or rather a circus?

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Jan 20, 2012 - 09:31am PT

Circus, part 31,419

A-Train

climber

Jan 20, 2012 - 09:43am PT

Good on ya boys! Excellent job. Thank you for starting the job of cleaning up the trashing of one of the greatest mountains on Earth.

KyleO

Gym climber

Calgary, AB

Jan 20, 2012 - 09:48am PT

Let me clarify...

No media or climber has reported they climbed it free, except in the title of my previous thread. Details were not there at the time I posted the thread and the title cannot be edited afterwards.

It seems they did free Cerro Torre from the bolt line and possibly future bolt lines...(Think Lama). I imagine a sport climber like himself will have a much harder time putting up his red bull route without the Compressor bolts.

YoungGun

climber

North

Jan 20, 2012 - 09:58am PT

The circus is Super Topo, not Kruk and Kennedy's alpine achievements. Let's not confuse the two. Respect, guys.

Slakkey

Big Wall climber

From Back to Big Wall Baby

Jan 20, 2012 - 10:04am PT

The circus is Super Topo, not Kruk and Kennedy's alpine achievements. Let's not confuse the two. Respect, guys.

Agree

New Age II

climber

Jan 20, 2012 - 10:16am PT

I do not agree at all! He's right .... Enzolino

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 20, 2012 - 10:25am PT

If you call a respectful conversation with some of the top climber in the world a circus, so be it.

Right on Coz.

I think Rollo should have done it himself, but I very much respect his climbing, the man he is and his willingness to take a stand.

He probably would have except he is probably more involved with amazing new things.

He is a class act, and one of the best climber the world has ever seen, doesn't mean I have to agree, however.

Right on again!

New Age II

climber

Jan 20, 2012 - 10:26am PT

The two young people have used the bolts to go up .... what is so innovative?

YoungGun

climber

North

Jan 20, 2012 - 10:30am PT

If you call a respectful conversation with some of the top climber in the world a circus, so be it.

Let me clarify. The OTHER thread was a circus with all of its rumors, speculation and misinformation. (And I'm not placing blame. I'm as ignorant as anyone.) I agree this thread is pretty civilized and has some thoughtful comments from legendary climbers, like yourself, which I appreciate.

gmmcdoug

Mountain climber

Calgary AB

Jan 20, 2012 - 10:46am PT

Natural state? There will still be broken bolts and machine gun holes all the way up the route. It is still desecrated. It may make Lama's free ascent easier, he can likely use the holes as pockets.

Over bolting is bad,
un-necessary bolting is bad
Chipping holds is bad
Styles that needlessly compromise the environment bad.

But really, removing the bolts? There are still holes everywhere. How does this make it any better. As opposed to it being of historical significance, where people can climb (or clip) it if they like it is now a bigger broken piece of trash. (edit note: Cerro Torre is not trash- it is likely the most beutiful peak in the world)

What to me is funny is to me is that the biggest advocates of chopping the route at least tried to climb ir or have (kudos boys, first hand knowledge). It could be argued some cut their teeth on it. So again if they got to try it and make a decision on Maestri's merits, why should others not have the same right?

Outof curiosuity how many people still sumitted the route by the compressor route each year? I was still under the impression, it didn't see that many.

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Jan 20, 2012 - 11:35am PT

Once you admit to defecating on other people's gear, after chopping their bolts without prior inspection, I think you sacrifice the right to have a legitimate opinion about climbing ethics. Your attack on Kennedy and Kruk is hypocritical and unwarranted. Their actions may be controversial, but they are entirely defensible. I'm sure they will explain with thoughtful eloquence and it won't take them 29 years to do it. They are young, like you once were, but unlike you, I'm sure they thought about the significance of their actions within the continuum of climbing history, and will be prepared, like men, to own up to their actions and discuss them.

scotch

Mountain climber

italy

Jan 20, 2012 - 11:56am PT

All my congratulation. Now Cerro Torre is like the mother did it... Thank you, ermanno salvaterra

e9climbing.blogspot.com

Mountain climber

Alps (Euro trash )

Jan 20, 2012 - 12:08pm PT

This is just fantastic news! Chopping history!

Snowmassguy

Big Wall climber

Boulder

Jan 20, 2012 - 12:21pm PT

So bummed. I was totally going to flash that route. I been training in the gym every Tuesday night doing endless laps! Even been practicing standing in my aiders. Also, just talked to my 1/2 French, half Italian guide and he is really pissed. This is totally not fair. Now im really gona die.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jan 20, 2012 - 12:26pm PT

Jason and Hayden many many thanks for a ton of cartoon fodder.

How much did you pay them? How did you mislead those two innocent young men into a life of bolt chopping?

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Jan 20, 2012 - 12:29pm PT

Was that a cheap shot? Yeah, maybe. Sorry. I feel slightly bad. Seemed fair enough at the time.

Go to another thread with your childish ranting.

There is no childish ranting to be found in this thread.

Anyway, back to the Compressor Route:

Brandon-

climber

The Granite State.

Jan 20, 2012 - 12:34pm PT

Honestly Snorky, I found your rationale spot on.

SS dissing the bolt chop is akin to the pot calling the kettle black, no racism meant toward African Americans or potheads.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 20, 2012 - 12:40pm PT

Ermanno Salvaterra,

you also added bolts on Cerro Torre, right?
So, I don't understand your enthusiasm if you "violated" the mountain as well.
Or, I understand it in "hypocritical" or incongruent perspective.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 20, 2012 - 12:57pm PT

A picture is worth a thousand words.

Kinobi

climber

Jan 20, 2012 - 01:09pm PT

With reference to:
"Enzo, they were watched climbing by Colin Haley.
Proof enough for any reasonable person. "

Well, this is false: Rolo never belived Cesarino Fava who said se saw Egger/Maestri climbing.
Ciao,
E

Kinobi

climber

Jan 20, 2012 - 01:13pm PT

With Reference to:
"All my congratulation. Now Cerro Torre is like the mother did it... Thank you, ermanno salvaterra "

Ermanno Salvaterra, Piergiorgio Vidi and Roberto Manni dumped their alluminium capsule on Cerro Torre's Glacier, after the climb of Route "Infinto sud" in 1995.
http://www.pataclimb.com/climbingareas/chalten/torregroup/torre/infinito.html
Ciao,
E

bmacd

Mountain climber

100% Canadian

Jan 20, 2012 - 01:21pm PT

I can speculate one thing with accuracy, before Jason left for the southern hemisphere he spent considerable time teaching himself final cut pro. We chatted about video shooting and the importance of getting a good sequence to to work with before the editing starts.

I have no doubt there will be some superb video coming back to North America of their exploits on Cerro Torre. Better get your Vancouver International Mountain Film Festival tickets now.

guest

climber

Jan 20, 2012 - 01:26pm PT

Let’s be sure our details are correct for some of our judgments -- some folks are mistaken on a couple of key points:

• “Did the Argentines agree to this? This is their mountain, their route, in their country” and whole ‘Merican/Canadian “cowboys” thing that implies outsiders are wrecking a locals’ route. The Compressor Route was established by an Italian “cowboy.” Cesari Maestri was not local. It’s not like he had some sort of “local’s consent” (however one would accurately gather that, anyway…) before installing a hardware store on the most beautiful peak in the world. To imply that Hayden and Jason were acting as wild “cowboys” while giving a de facto pass to Maestri, who did the extraordinary damage in the first place as a foreigner himself, is wrong.

• The “applying today’s standards to yesterday’s routes” thing – in general I agree with what folks mean, but it’s totally mistaken in the case of the Compressor Route. It was globally decried at the time it went in – hell, back in that time, bolting was probably less accepted than it is today. 40 years ago, Maestri’s bolt-a-thon made the cover of the influential Mountain magazine, with the title: “Cerro Torre: a Mountain Desecrated.” It wasn’t anywhere near accepted at the time. Probably even less accepted then than it is today.

Of course folks have the right to think the route should stay, and I understand some of those arguments, but ya shouldn’t base them on inaccuracies.

--Kelly

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 20, 2012 - 01:48pm PT

Kelly,
the largest inaccuracy is to ignore the historical and ethical context in, which Maestri was acting.
Beside his undisputable free climbing skills, Maestri came from an ethical heritage in Dolomites, where the alpinists of the time were "exploring" the style of direttissima. These were the '50 and '60 and only late in the sixties climbers started to criticize. The famous Messner article "The Murderer of the impossible" was written in 1971.
Therefore to blame Maestri for an ethic which was a product of his time is, I'm sorry for this, a gesture of ignorance.

Re-write history and describe Maestri and the Compressor route as megalomaniac or insane as has been done, is absolutely unfair.

I wonder if any of who discredit Maestri, beside Garibotti or Salvaterra, has ever read Maestri's books or Alpine history.

Studly

Trad climber

Jan 20, 2012 - 01:48pm PT

Kelly, did they have the permission and support of the Argentine climbing community to do this?
That is really what it all boils down to. If they did, then my hat is off to them and kudos!

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jan 20, 2012 - 01:51pm PT

What (if anything) does Argentinian law say about it? Not that we have a first-party account of what was done yet. If the fuss about Cerro Torre over the last fifty years shows anything, it's that facts are sacred.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 20, 2012 - 01:53pm PT

Studly how important is that really?
Who speaks for the diversity of opinions within a whole community.
Consensus is the key.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 20, 2012 - 02:09pm PT

...the largest inaccuracy is to ignore the historical and ethical context in, which Maestri was acting. Beside his undisputable free climbing skills, Maestri came from an ethical heritage in Dolomites,

As an old guy, I would love to be reminded of exactly which "ethical context" of the time included hauling gas-powered compressors up routes...

That Maestri contemplated and acquired a gas-powered compressor in the first place tells you everything you need to know about his intent for the route before ever leaving Italy. An epic fail, which was called just that, in its own time.

Gregory Crouch

Social climber

Walnut Creek, California

Jan 20, 2012 - 02:15pm PT

Having slept on this, I'm finding myself more uncomfortable with this than I was last night.

Here are my more developed thoughts: http://gregcrouch.com/2012/the-compressor-route-chopped-more-thoughts

The gist:

I find myself lamenting its loss, and I’m hurt that members of my community have taken it away from me without even giving me an opportunity to voice my opinion about whether or not it should stand. Without giving ANY of the rest of us that opportunity.

That route was our common possession, and now it’s gone.

(also, as an irrelevant aside, would somebody please visit my blog from North Dakota. The hole in my google analytics data is making me crazy! ;-) )

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 20, 2012 - 02:21pm PT

The ethical context was the systematic bolting of the wall to reach the summit. Maestri used the last technology of the time. Which, indeed, was a novelty, although controversial and heavily criticized. It's part of climbing evolution to utilize new technologies. Some might become successful, other might be criticised and abandoned. Now, most of HLF (High-Long-Free) routes are opened using electric drills. So, was it really a big deal?

Peter Haan

Trad climber

San Francisco, CA

Jan 20, 2012 - 02:25pm PT

Good on this. It is quite surprisingly after all that this kooky compressor business of Maestri's hadn't been cleared out long long ago. It was akin to finding an upside down abandoned car body in El Cap Meadow or the Louvre ceiling leaking on to the Mona Lisa. Good on you too, Snorky just above... Steve Schneider seems to be having a really rough time recently and has me frankly worried even more now. His brother and mom are friends of mine. All this does not need to be a drama at all.

WBraun

climber

Jan 20, 2012 - 02:35pm PT

What a freakin drama.

We scream when we put em in and we scream when we take em out .....

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 20, 2012 - 02:45pm PT

I saw Maestri's Terrible Hubris more along the lines of someone having scrawled a mustachio across Mona Lisa's Smile.
Sadly, It's removal would have some few say that it's having been there is all the justification needed for it's continued presence and to condemn the restorers for imposing their elitist will on the world

Question, did David Lama and Red Bull ask the locals if they would mind them adding more unnecessary bolts and bailing leaving a ton of crap behind? Kennedy and Kruk left it better than they found it. Isn't that what we all should strive to do? Props to the MEN!.

guest

climber

Jan 20, 2012 - 02:47pm PT

Hi Enzolino -- I don't think the ethic and style of climbing mountains in 1970-71 (when Maestri did the compressor) included, for the most part, using a gas-powered compressor to install lines of bolts beside perfect cracks. I've seen his bolts -- it is truly crazy. In 1970-71, people, including Maestri -- I am aware of some of his great climbs and his talent -- were perfectly capable of climbing and naturally protecting splitter 5.7-5.9 cracks (as some of the parts of the CR are, as I recall -- whatever it was, it's not 5.13 seams that don't take pro). My understanding of history is that the direttissima had evolved well beyond Maestri's antics on Cerro Torre. I can't think of other places in the world where, in that time/day, placing bolt ladders up 5.7 cracks was accepted. Again, I think the global reaction to Maestri's antics at the time support this notion.

Studly -- as I wrote in my last post, I'm not sure this "permission & support" thing is super relevant, at least not without considering that Maestri certainly had no permission from the community in the first place. I disagree that this is "what it all boils down to." One could say that two wrongs don't make a right (though I don’t believe the chopping to necessarily be “wrong”—my opinion), fair enough, but don't ignore the fact that the initial transgression came from an "outsider" going full cowboy himself.
Maybe Hayden & Jason should have gotten consensus from the community there? Yeah, good luck with that in either direction (yay or nay). How does one define the community, and a consensus? Community meaning…the college kids from Buenos Aires working in Chalten for the summer? The people who go there and do some bouldering? Argentine citizens, regardless of whether or not they’re climbers informed on the topic? Those who've been on Cerro Torre? Must they have summitted? If so, by which routes? Those who've spent a ton of time in the peaks there? The rangers? Who? Even so, what do you say about Maestri's not having "permission and support" to do his desecration in the first place? If one wants to assail Hayden and Jason for not having such permission, ya cannot ignore Maestri's doing the same. I would say that Maestri did greater damage to begin with. While I know that some still think H&J were wrong, I don't think it's fair to lambast them without the context of the initial atrocity -- guess that's my main point in regards to your point. Sorry for the rambles!
--Kelly

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 20, 2012 - 03:03pm PT

What do you mean by 5.7-5.9 cracks?
Dolomite rock, typical Maestri's playground, is characterized by thin cracks where you place relatively thin pitons. Maybe Maestri was unfamiliar on granit and very familiar with bolt ladders, that for him to add bolts close to those cracks was not such a big deal. Now, the bolts close to the 5.7-5.9 cracks are considered a blasphemy, but not in Maestri's time. At least in my opinion.

guest

climber

Jan 20, 2012 - 03:09pm PT

BTW, sounds like, so far, that the "Compressor Route Chopped" thing is an overstatement (man, it's a weird world the way info travels -- I don't think anyone has even heard from Hayden & Jason yet; sh#t, what if all of this hubbub is about nothing, and they were like, "nah dude, we were in the bar the whole time" ha! -- then again, hearing the info from Rolo is as solid as solid can be). From how it sounds, the most significant bolt chopping was the headwall -- same as Maestri himself did on his way down, after he'd installed them on his way up. CT must have the most bizarre history of any peak in the world.

Sounds like the 5.7 bolt ladders and such are still there for people who want them. Ya just maybe have to do some legitimate climbing to reach the top now. (Elitist!!!!)

guest

climber

Jan 20, 2012 - 03:14pm PT

What do you mean by 5.7-5.9 cracks?

Enzolino -- I meant the 5.7-to-5.9 bolted cracks on the Compressor Route. (That grade range is an estimation -- point being that he put up bolt ladders by cracks perfectly protectable in that day and age.)

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 20, 2012 - 03:21pm PT

He threw away his bold past and was flipping the bird at the world of Alpinism.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 20, 2012 - 03:23pm PT

Maestri used the latest technology of the time. Which, indeed, was a novelty, although controversial and heavily criticized.

It's sure hard to counter logic this tortured. Glad it's done, hopefully someone will now do a last cleanup survey and plug the holes. With a good patch job it will be much closer to the way Maestri found it. Hard to imagine why anyone would want to memorialize and preserve such an embarrassing hatchet job and blight on a beautiful piece of stone like CT.

Brian in SLC

Social climber

Salt Lake City, UT

Jan 20, 2012 - 03:25pm PT

Apparently the holes are still there?

Easy enough to refill. Harder to redrill.

Bolt wars always end up being a bummer for the rock.

Historical route. Not on my list of things to do, but, kinda siding with Greg Crouch on this one.

I'd be a bit bummed if I went to climb a classic wall or three here in the states and some kids chopped a bolt ladder on rappel after doing a variation off to the side (while still using some bolts and aid).

Smacks of a bit of elitism to me.

Alex C

Mountain climber

Cambridge

Jan 20, 2012 - 03:29pm PT

It sounds as though you're suggesting he didn't know how to protect granite hand cracks naturally so had to use bolts. Which is, frankly, bizarre.

Hawkeye

climber

State of Mine

Jan 20, 2012 - 03:31pm PT

kudos to their climb.

on the other hand, if they rapped of of some of the bolts while chopping others i wonder if they can spell hypocrisy?

does this also invalidate all other guys climbs of CT as the route was not fair....

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 20, 2012 - 03:32pm PT

Hawkeye, read the whole thread. It has been covered.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jan 20, 2012 - 03:33pm PT

IIRC, Maestri was/is a mountain guide, and quite an experienced one. What does his resume show about climbing the western Alps, which is much more granitic = wider cracks?

Also, he was in Patagonia in 1958 - 59, and whatever he did on Cerro Torre - getting part way to the "Col of Conquest", anyway - must have given him some experience on cracks. Twelve years later he'd surely added to it.

Whatever they may do there now, were cracks in the Alps bolted in 1958, or 1970?

Ghost

climber

A long way from where I started

Jan 20, 2012 - 03:44pm PT

If I remember correctly, Maestri returned to Cerro Torre and put up the compressor route as a way of saying a great big "F*#k You!" to the climbing community -- a community which had expressed doubts about his claimed first ascent.

Which puts the whole chopping thing in a different perspective. If his "first ascent" had been legit, maybe one could sympathize with what he did on the compressor route. If, as now seems to bee the case, his "first ascent" was a lie, then why venerate his "F*#k You" response?

And, of course, no one expounding here really has any idea how many bolts were chopped. A couple as a symbolic gesture? Dozens? Hundreds?

Why not wait until you know?

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Jan 20, 2012 - 03:44pm PT

I always considered the Compressor Route as South America's finest "Nose-in-a-day" route... Perhaps it still is.

Though it all appears to be speculation at this point, a question arises--instead of "fair-means" climbing the Maestri line on the headwall then chopping it, I don't understand why they just didn't put in a bad-ass variant up somewhere else on the headwall? The headwall is wide and very featured, and the line Maestri picked for those final three pitches almost arbitrary. (edit: maybe they did--the details at this point are still unclear).

The Cerro Torre headwall bolt ladder is very much akin to the final bolt ladder on the Nose--sure, it could have been done originally in better style, but in both cases, the first ascentionists were simply ravenously drilling their final path to the summit. Yet there have been plenty of subsequent ascents on both the Nose and on Cerro Torre who had no complaint and were happy to clip those bolts!

To me, "fair-means" seems arbitrary if only applied to bolts used for upward progress. Belays are part of climbing too.

throwpie

Trad climber

Berkeley

Jan 20, 2012 - 03:48pm PT

Werner got it right.

When I learned the game in Yosemite, you started at the bottom and climbed to the top as cleanly as possible. Bolts were an excepted method of getting from crack to crack or creating a bomber anchor. Almost everyone knew when enough was enough. There was debate and limits were pushed for sure, but there were no top down pure bolt routes until the sport climbing eruption. Some bolt routes did exist, but they were put up on lead. The Compressor Route pushed it too far and the controversy started as soon as word was out. Chopping them? Fine. (they WERE placed on lead) But where do you stop? Sport climbing has its place for sure, and it opens up a lot of acreage that couldn't be enjoyed without bolts.

If it isn't placed on lead, it's glorified toproping. Toproping is great fun, but it's still toproping, not climbing. My geezerhood two cents.

Cor

climber

Colorado

Jan 20, 2012 - 04:50pm PT

a few thoughts...

comparing the compressor route with the nose - (bolts)
is like apples and oranges. they are very different.

the compressor has been considered a disgrace since it was put up,
the nose on the other hand is/was not...

sure people have climbed both. but they are very different.

i love patagonia, i got to summit fitz roy, what a magical place...
sure i would love to summit cerro torre. which route would i probably try?
the compressor...(cuz i am weak)
am i mad that it is gone?(if it really is) hell no!
it just means that i should have to try hard for the mighty peak, and not follow the tame yellow brick road. another words, sack up!

that compressor route did not fit in with the ethics of the area. never did, never will. if someone put a bolt ladder up the fitz roy, would i be upset? yep. would i want it removed? yep. it would tame the peak down to the everyman/women level. keep wild places & peaks (& climbs) wild!
if you are not ready, you are not ready. if the only way you could make it up the cerro torre is by a giant bolt ladder, then maybe you better wait until you have more skill.

it is like chipped holds...(for example) let's dumb it down to our level,
so we can actually send. and so everyone knows, bolts are fine, i am not against them. it's just that the compressor route was bad style.

cheers!
cory

mike m

Trad climber

black hills

Jan 20, 2012 - 05:09pm PT

Superpin, Cerro Torre's little brother.

laughingman

Mountain climber

Seattle WA

Jan 20, 2012 - 05:13pm PT

This thread is going to get very nasty overnight.

I knew the compressor route would in time be chopped in the name of good ethics. It might have been a good idea to ask the locals if chopping the route was ok, given the history and controversy behind the route.

Anyone know if they cut the 50 year old, 300lb gas-powered compressor drill off the top of the bolt ladder?

e9climbing.blogspot.com

Mountain climber

Alps (Euro trash )

Jan 20, 2012 - 05:20pm PT

As this old article (http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?l=2&keyid=35788); just came out with regards to a "vote" held in El Chalten some time ago, in this news article http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?l=2&keyid=39055);

I think we need to accept and respect that Jason and Hayden made an ethical judgement call after improving the style in witch the route was climbed and it meant chopping the bolts for them.

With reference to the "voting article" linked to above my opinion is that a bunch of climbers that happens to hang out in El Chalten can't possibly "vote" on a topic like this and expect some one that follows in better style to take orders from the "voting" few, that's insane. HK and Kruk made a ethical judgement call and chopped the bolts. In a sport where style matters that's there call and not ours to judge.

As style improves so do we need to improve our skills if we want to follow. That some one once decided to rape the mountain can never justify the action. It can't possibly be controversial to say that it was a bad call to bolt it in the first place.

We (the climbers) have a universal responsibility to preserve the mountains and not try and get up them by any available means even if it hurts our ego, plans and ambitions. In due time some one will get it right and its for us to make sure that that can happen for them.

The fact that style will be improved by future generations has virtually never been more obvious than in this case. They restored the mountain to its original condition and we live to play by the mountains rules not ours.

ps sorry for my poor English

climbnplay

climber

Jan 20, 2012 - 05:30pm PT

Surprisingly, Maestri agreed with the last part of Karo’s statement. In his 2000 Metri della Nostra Vita, Maestri recounts that, before making the first rappel from the high point of his attempt (he stopped 100 feet below the summit) he decided to, “take out all the bolts and leave the climb as clean as we found it. I’ll break them all.” After chopping 20 bolts, and in the face of the magnitude of the enterprise, Maestri changed his mind.

Maestri let his thirst overtake his judgement on the ascent and later regretted - BRAVO! on the team's effort to clean up after an irresponsible man who couldn't wipe his own ass.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jan 20, 2012 - 05:34pm PT

In pursuit of more facts...

How does the first route on Cerro Torre, that established by the Lecco Spiders in 1974, compare with what it seems was the former compressor/Maestri/(Bridwell) route? Has anyone done both, and if so, which is the harder/more committing/whatever?

Yes, the Spiders route has a longer approach and is more remote, and that one route is mostly rock, the other mostly snow/ice/snice. So it's apples and oranges. Still, would a climber who had the experience and skill to climb the compressor route generally be OK on the Spiders route, and vice versa?

Rockymaster

climber

Jan 20, 2012 - 05:40pm PT

I think they should have left the bolts as it was... the rock face was damaged already and if you want to clean up some mess remember that is going to look ever worse than before! I have been around up there... not impress with what they've done.

Clint Cummins

Trad climber

SF Bay area, CA

Jan 20, 2012 - 05:49pm PT

> I always considered the Compressor Route as South America's finest "Nose-in-a-day" route... Perhaps it still is.

I believe that was Bridwell's attitude, when he and Steve Brewer used speed climbing type tactics to climb it in a typical short weather window.
I remember the Leo Dickinson film where they tried to repeat it using siege tactics, which did not work because their fixed ropes got ripped to shreds by the winds in between attempts.

But I agree with the intervening post that it doesn't equate to the Nose (or Wall of Early Morning Light, which is closer but still not the same).
Here are some of the reasons it doesn't equate to the Nose:

route had already been tried in 1968 by Crew, et al

power bolted

extensive bolt ladders on an alpine climb

For that last point, I think of George Lowe's comment on North Twin.
Quoting him indirectly via Barry Blanchard:

"George knows that adventure lies in approaching an unclimbed steep mountain wall that is draped in glaciation, brazed with ice, and buttressed with soaring rock walls; and, and this is THE most important part: a rack, a rope, and the pack on your back ... no bolts."
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=890216&msg=891804#msg891804

For WoEML, that had been tried before, and Harding bolted rivet ladders up a different and indirect start.

Maybe the most interesting question is why wasn't it chopped earlier?
I guess partly because people had not proven that essentially the same route could be done without the bolt ladders.
Although people had proven that the West Face route could be done, it was not summited much until recent years, because people hadn't figured out how to make the rime slot.

Maybe another reason that it hadn't been chopped before was the somewhat negative reaction to the partial chopping of WoEML, at around the same time.

[Edit:] I think I understand why the incentive to chop has increased in recent years.
Originally, the route was essentially left as a reminder of Maestri's bad behavior. It's one of two ways to deal with a bad route - chop it, or leave it as a bad example and people laugh at it. But over time, people forgot and it because a dream climb for some. A more accessible and even "historic" way to a cool summit. Rather ironic.
The recent David Lama episodes, with 50-70 added bolts for cameramen, has made the continued tolerance of the old bolts even worse. They are treated like a license to bolt anything, for any reason, in the vicinity.
Time for a cleanup.

Rockymaster

climber

Jan 20, 2012 - 05:50pm PT

I totally agree with Laughingman and e9climbing.blogspot.com's post... when we have a vote in Chalten we said we wanted the bolts to be left to where they are now, climb a "new and clean" route beside it but you have no dice in saying or doing what you did... the mountain belongs to everybody and to nobody. What was done, was done and who this guys think they are to pulling bolts out of the wall?

Vicente, Tehuelche... much of this guys i think will agree ... leave it as it was!

Gregory Crouch

Social climber

Walnut Creek, California

Jan 20, 2012 - 05:53pm PT

Mighty Hiker, I've done 'em both... both hard, both committing, both fantastic experiences I absolutely treasure. Both drove me to the edge of what I could handle, both in different ways.

Pampero

Trad climber

Buenos Aires, Argentina

Jan 20, 2012 - 05:56pm PT

It was january 16th., 1965. If interested, here follows the real cronology and facts about the Compressor Route on Cerro Torre that began when with Fonrouge we were at the top of Cerro Fitz Roy via the Supercanaleta in the second absolute ascent of this mountain. Because this beatiful and exigent mountain merits the most from climbers we did it in alpine style, mostly in simulclimbing, without fixed ropes, siege attacks or artificial weaponry. Behind and below us the fantastic Cerro Torre in clear skies showed with brightness his beatifull icy shape. Time afterwards - I guess it was 1966 or 1967 - at a table of a bar in Buenos Aires with Douglas Haston, Mike Burke and (was there also Martin Boysen?) we were dreamming about giving a try Co. Torre thru the Southeast Ridge and our fingers traced an ideal line over the SE ridge of one of our Co. Torre's photos we took from Fitz Roy summit. Sometime after, Fonrouge joined the British team that arrived high in this line but misteriously stopped before the icy towers. Wonder how the famous expedition rawplug dissapear...? Don't know by sure, but I always remember the conversation I had with Fonrouge at home - and his decision - after our meeting with Haston and friends at the bar that we'll never use an spit. And I also said thst...to give a try to this empoisoned mountain by Maestri's 1959's claim was a nonsense having manny other virgen summits to make. Later, in january 1970 Maestri asked to meet us in Buenos Aires when he decided to make an attempt to the Southeast Ridge and looked for details of the line but didn't mention the use of a compressor and gave us the idea to try the climb by fair means. As it is known they didn't make the summit this time. Weeks after their return I was in Italy for business reasons and he invited me to Maddona were we spent some time talking about his programmed new intent to Cerro Torre in the following southamerican 1970 winter. No words were said about the use of a compressor for drilling holes to plug spits. Upon his return from patagonia having used the compressor and claiming for his new line on the SE ridge - and also mentionning that the top mushroom was not the true summit-, more doubts appeared about his 1959's line statements. Living for professional reasons in Milan-Italy, since late 1973, I had many contacts with the Ragni Group and got an idea about the national battle around Cerro Torre's Maestri claims at the time of his public statement directed to the Ragni Group saying that his climbs were discussed by whom couldn't climb Cerro Torre. Casimiro Ferrari's answer to Maestri was that the Ragni Group climbs mountains that can prove they climb and start to organize another attack to the west face of Torre. As we know today they made the true first ascent of the mountain. More recently Garibotti, Salvaterra and Beltrame proved that no one had transit before the line claimed by Maestri. In my name and the others that resign the dream to climb for first this fantastic mountain I claim for our rights to delete from the walls of Cerro Torre all the remainings - compressor inclusive - of the rape made by Maestri in the 70's and I think that no one - for any reason - can have more rigths than ours.
Carlos Comesaña

Gregory Crouch

Social climber

Walnut Creek, California

Jan 20, 2012 - 06:02pm PT

Carlos Comesaña and Jose Luis Fonrouge -- architects of one of the greatest climbs of all time. I tip my hat to you, sir. I once had the honor to shake Senor Fonrouge's hand. I hope I someday get the honor to shake yours.

(Even though I'm afraid I disagree with you on this topic. For which hopefully you'll forgive me :-) )

WBraun

climber

Jan 20, 2012 - 06:02pm PT

Actually Bridwell never really intended to do the compressor route back then.

He was looking for/at a complete independent line to the top to trump the Maestri compressor route.

There was some kind of mutiny on the his ship that happened for whatever reason.

The crew left and Jim was forced to salvage his trip down there by recruiting Brewer, .. an unplanned walk-on.

Thus Jim might just have done the same back then as the these guys today? (Pulled the bolts)

Pure mental speculation at this point?

Most people that were against pulling the bolts feel the Maestri route should have been "grandfathered in" ......

If he did go that route, pull the bolts back then, would there have been the same outrage?

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Jan 20, 2012 - 06:05pm PT

Clint-

When I equate the Compressor route with the Nose, it is not necessarily in regards to the original style, but rather in the end result.

Both routes are magnificent lines with magnificent position in magnificent places, each about 3000 feet long, and which can be easily climbed and descended in a day by experienced climbers.

Though regarding style: Harding and Maestri both "pushed" the boundaries of what was considered "fair means" of the day, though of course Maestri pushed it farther by bringing motorized tools to the mountains. (Plus Maestri's motives seemed rather negative, whereas Harding was fun and positive in the climbs he did).

Time will tell. I reckon the SE ridge of Cerro Torre will still end up as a fine day route, which appears to be Steve's concern (he's certainly not one to be slowed down by 5.11!). It sounds like it will be a notch or two higher in standard, but also that much more dependent on luckier weather windows.

And Cerro Torre is a peak where weather luck makes all the difference!

ps--Bridwell climbed the last part of the headwall without the original bolts--the last 30 feet or so, and it resulted in what was originally probably moderate A3 climbing (now A1 since it's all fixed with mashies and stuff). He essentially demonstrated that the headwall could be climbed by "fair-means" back then--though the headwall is not a place where bomber boltless belays would be common--but you could aid and/or free climb pretty much anywhere on the headwall without drilling--it's very featured).

pss--I often wonder why the same outrage Maestri received back then isn't applied to climbers who bring power drills to the mountains today. Same thing, really, just more compact technology. (Edit--for example,
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=aXRz6_EIAYQC&pg=PA284&lpg=PA284&dq=great+canadian+knife+bolts&source=bl&ots=FLI8rfTVbp&sig=t85PlzPlNT9b2jfqTLcc7d5Ir-4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-TEbT67NNM60iQfsqpidCw&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=great%20canadian%20knife%20bolts&f=false

Gene

climber

Jan 20, 2012 - 06:08pm PT

For those who don’t know, Carlos Comesaña (Pampero above) made the FA of the Supercanaleta on FitzRoy and the second ascent of the mountain.

Thank you, Sir, for joining the discussion. It's great to have you here.

g

norm larson

climber

wilson, wyoming

Jan 20, 2012 - 06:09pm PT

Senor Comesena, Mucha gracias. It was only a matter of time before someone made an honorable ascent of the SE ridge. Maestri took that away from the climbers of that era.

ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber

San Francisco, Ca

Jan 20, 2012 - 06:21pm PT

I don't think I'd approve of a team from Argentina chopping a controversial route in Yosemite. It seems a bit presumptuous to me to chop a route in a foreign country.

Nice job on the climb though.

Clint Cummins

Trad climber

SF Bay area, CA

Jan 20, 2012 - 06:22pm PT

John,

Yes, they are both beautiful formations / lines!

Werner,

Maybe Bridwell would have chopped the bolts, if he had time.
He was in favor of chopping the WoEML, too - he was gonna do it, but Robbins wanted to check out the route first and promised to chop it, as Bridwell knew it might get too strong a vote for non-chopping if Robbins climbed it without chopping.
As it was, I think Jim and Steve were just trying to escape down the route with their lives.
The 130' whipper into the fog when Jim's borrowed sling parted indicated the adventure level, I think!
http://c498469.r69.cf2.rackcdn.com/1980/375_bridwell_cerrotorre_aaj1980.pdf

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 20, 2012 - 06:22pm PT

...the rock face was damaged already and if you want to clean up some mess remember that is going to look ever worse than before!

The holes can be patched to near invisible both color- and texture-wise if the person doing the patching takes the time and really knows what they're doing. There is no reason on earth for it to look "worse than before".

mike m

Trad climber

black hills

Jan 20, 2012 - 06:25pm PT

Maybe he was referring to it looking worse if someone decides this action was wrong and put up more bolts to the restore the route. I believe the threat hs already been made. Could be an endless cycle.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 20, 2012 - 06:30pm PT

Here's his full quote - pretty clear he's just talking about the chopping.

Pretty out of date relative to the ins and outs of chopping / epoxying and doing it competently.

Gene

climber

Jan 20, 2012 - 07:11pm PT

I suspect that in a few years the bolt chopping by K & K on Maestri’s partial line will be viewed not as desecration or arrogance but simply raising the price of admission to an incredible summit.

Doesn’t K & K’s bolt chopping pale in comparison to what Maestri did, especially in light of the fact that the compressor route - which Maestri never completed - was meant to silence critics of his 1959 ascent claims? Maestri failed in both 1959 and 1970. What do we owe him or his bolts?
g

Levy

Big Wall climber

So Cal

Jan 20, 2012 - 07:16pm PT

So let me get this straight, If I go do a route in better style than the F.A. party by bypassing any bolts they placed on the route, I have the right to go and chop the bolts I bypassed?

How crazy is that logic? I did an onsight free solo of Snake Dike, can I now chop the bolts on it because I climbed the route "by fair means"? That is friggin stupid!

How about this analagy: since those amazing Brits did Bachar-Yerian with only the one bolt on the 3rd pitch, can the bolts on the first two pitches now be removed?

How about the Cables route on Half Dome. It certainly would be considered a desecration by modern consensus, yet it is the most popular route up Half Dome. Should those cables now be removed to make the top of Half Dome accesible to "more worthy climbers"?

Get over yourselves Hayden, Jason & Rolo. You are not the omniscient ones with all powerful knowledge. You just vandalized a route that was a big part of history. I have much respect for your previous ascents and the style they were done in but this is just wrong. Did Hayden & Jason remove every bolt on the Compressor Route? Or, did they just chop the top pitch/pitches so nobody can finish the route now via the bolt ladder? In my opinion, if they didn't chop the entire route, they just F-ed up a huge part of history.

Where does this madness end? The rock still suffered the effects of the drill, the holes are still there, what besides vandalizing the route did you accomplish. Shame on the two of them & anybody who condones this short-sighted deed of nefariousness.

Bill Leventhal

Pass the Chongo, Chongo

Social climber

camped on P3 of WOS

Jan 20, 2012 - 07:17pm PT

ALL SUMMITS MUST BE ATTAINED BY 5.12+ & A2 CLIMBING!!!!!!

NOTHING LESS OR YOUR A PUSSY NON ALPINIST CHUMP AND SHOULD STAY AT HOME!!

PTcc!!!!!!

Pass the Chongo, Chongo

Social climber

camped on P3 of WOS

Jan 20, 2012 - 07:19pm PT

ALSO ONLY BOLTS TOUCHED BY HAYDEN KENNEDY AND JASON KRUK WILL BE THOSE ALLOWED TO REMAIN ON ANY ROUTE!!!!!!!!!!! IF HK AND/OR JK DOES NOT NEED THE BOLTS, YOUR A PUSSY NON ALPINIST CHUMP END OF STORY!!!

ms55401

Trad climber

minneapolis, mn

Jan 20, 2012 - 07:20pm PT

funny shtt above, yo

Jennie

Trad climber

Elk Creek, Idaho

Jan 20, 2012 - 07:23pm PT

Every testosterone tilt deserves a tower. Photo by Edu Aresti.

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Jan 20, 2012 - 07:25pm PT

Think someone local should have done the job. The gentleman from argentina who is obviously someone very famous over there and wanted the rout chopped should have done the deed himself. It is just not right for anyone to go to annother country and tell them how to climb and chop routs that you do not agree with.

ms55401

Trad climber

minneapolis, mn

Jan 20, 2012 - 07:30pm PT

'mericans don't need to ask second-world bumpkins for anything

stefano607518

Trad climber

italy/austria/switzerland

Jan 20, 2012 - 07:48pm PT

You guys must be kiddin, donnow how is going to be or not to be in real but i must admit that this way of going, i did it free or by fair means...(plus adding some bolts more but beside it...) so I´ll chop it out... (clean the line) sound really childish and foolish.

I mean on the same way many old routes here in the dolomites now should be cleaned out from pitons and bolds...even i can climb some old routes from maestri made in the dolomites with extensive use of pressure pins.

would it then be right to clean them out???

Sorry guys but if i agree with the obvious fact than Maestri made his revenge by wrong means, i have to admit that this erasing of a piece of history from Co. Torre make me unconfortable.

Theb guys, (nice climb btw, chapeau) made a remarkable climb, but they oviously climbed an independent line....why then and in the name of what chop out the pins of a line on the side??? NEEDED SOME MORE WORKOUT???

Sh#t i do not know whether i can make my point here but in fact this sort of anarchy of chopping out deserve all my opposition (..and some from others i hope)

Anyhow guess we could soon find these pins and even the compressor itself on ebay.... typical and fair right???

WTF

somebody said "Cleaning up an anthropogenic mess is a great thing"...i do not agree here, any route can be considered like that by different eyes...
moreover somebody discussed and democratically voted to KEEP IT LIKE THAT..you guys did not respect this point

PS.what are you fighting whit we you climb you guys? yourself or the mountain?

Gretz from Europe

guest

climber

Jan 20, 2012 - 08:38pm PT

Damn, we’re descending into a lot of ignorant comments. For example, the utterly irrelevant comparisons about chopping well-bolted, climbing-world accepted routes where maybe someone didn’t need to clip the bolts themselves (the Snake Dike example by Bill L most recently, but brought up by others as well). Such comparisons, of reasonably bolted routes, bear no relevance to the bolted-crack and bolt-ladder atrocity that is the Compressor Route. Interestingly, the most uninformed comments are often the most strongly stated as well.

Likewise, as I and others have explained ad nauseam, the “foreigner” thing isn’t so simple either. I think it's hard to forcefully say that foreigners are doing a horrible thing by chopping an abomination of bolts initially installed by a foreigner. Maestri wasn’t Argentine. He didn’t have “consent” to desecrate Cerro Torre like he did. At least consider this before blathering ignorantly as if it’s a route put-up by locals in some sort of accepted-for-the day standard (neither are true).

Let’s be clear: nobody who’s even remotely informed on the Compressor Route would claim that the 400+ bolts (installed by a foreigner, with no “local consent” or whatever) belonged, or that it was an even borderline acceptable route.

The only legit defense for the CR staying is “it’s already there, it’s a piece of history, leave it.” Some Argentines feel this way, some do not. Personally, I can see both sides, but I’m fine with it being chopped (not that my opinion matters); it’s an abomination, and we tear down lots of things that shouldn’t be there; I know, we also leave some standing – there is no definitive answer.

The random, uninformed spouting represents both the great thing and the unfortunate thing about the internet: anybody can chime in, regardless of how ill informed they may be. But it’s not a terrible idea to educate yourself about the topic before going off.
--Kelly

David Wilson

climber

Jan 20, 2012 - 08:38pm PT

well, according to the logic at hand, the half dome cables should certainly be next to go.....they may need some demo skills for those.....

Norwegian

Trad climber

Placerville, California

Jan 20, 2012 - 08:50pm PT

our passage should go unnoticed among those mounts.

but our fear of change inhibits our purity.
maestri was pure afraid of dying. so he shot the place
foul of hole, to ensure his soul.

though really,
his soul was already consumed by fear.

death is his, boss.
and death defines many.

these fools flail wildly in all of their's pursuit.

we whom co-inherit death and life strive for purity of passage in
difficult realms.

the mounts are there, always receiving warriors and fools, alike.

they are beyond us. the mounts.
they are eternal.

but we, finite beings of soft flesh and vunerable systems
can exploit the high and cold and make less sense of their and of our world,

and according to this accepted confusion we've transcended the fear-mongers
whom murder every potential mystery with a submission of their spirit to god.

fsck

climber

Jan 20, 2012 - 08:52pm PT

brave young surgery
removing the vulgar scar
abusive lover

so, no more free rides
from inadequate suitors
or soulless lovers

we are so sorry
you have to try harder now
she's worth it, you know?

pimp daddy wayne

Gym climber

Manchester, VT

Jan 20, 2012 - 09:21pm PT

Awesome poem man!

dirhk

Trad climber

Jan 20, 2012 - 09:29pm PT

On the day Hayden and Jason skull f*#ked the torre, all you folks were probably working your desk job. They're living the dream- this internet banter is just so insignificant.

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Jan 20, 2012 - 09:34pm PT

Now that is a classy post......

WBraun

climber

Jan 20, 2012 - 09:46pm PT

All mortals are living in a dream, dirhik

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Jan 20, 2012 - 09:53pm PT

kelly. I have no real right to judge the rout one way or annother. Never been there. Some make it sound as though it is still fairly well protected even without the drilled pins. With only that to go on with the story of the seige with the compressor it is very easy to condem the route from my armchair. On the otherhand I have no idea what the rout means to those who actually live in Argentina? If they really felt that it needed to go they could have and should have done something about it. You can not compare putting up new routs in forgin countrys to chopping old routes in other folks back yards.
I feel that this is a terrible precident to set. No one argues that Sadam Hussin was not a bad dictator yet most of the world felt pretty strongly that the USA should not have invaded Iraq to get rid of him.
The idea that just because you have the might gives you the right to go anywhere in the world and chop a route that you do not agree with is quite disturbing INMOP.

guest

climber

Jan 20, 2012 - 10:20pm PT

Some good points, tradman, thanks. First, I feel fully confident saying that, indeed, the route takes very good natural pro almost the whole way -- I've only rapped down it, and I was pretty exahausted (climbed up a different way), but I remember being like, "Whoa. Holy sh#t. This is insane!" Had an odd admiration for Maestri's lunatic fringe obsession -- it's hard to imagine unless ya've seen it.

But more to your points -- kinda like two wrongs don't make a right, perhaps? Fair enough. I will say, though, that it's also interesting how we (not just based on your post, but something I've observed a lot over the years) seem to view installing bolts as OK, but removing them as not OK. How does that make sense? Like, I mean, drilling a hole and making a permanent alteration is every bit as much an act of violence (not trying to overdo it; I clip bolts all the time, just saying that it's definitely an invasive act) as removing it, no? Why do we seem to accept placing them, but not removing them when called for? For the record, I've never removed/chopped a bolt, and I've placed two bolts in my life. So I'm really not coming at this particular point from a personal bias standpoint; it's just curious to me. Thanks, Kelly

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA

Jan 20, 2012 - 10:22pm PT

What I think it very pertinent to this discussion is that in 2007 a meeting was held at the Los Glacieres National Park Visitor Center in El Chalten to discuss what should be done with the bolts on the Compressor routes. Not only were forty climbers from nine different countries present at the meeting, but also the chief ranger for the area and the secretary and president of the local Andean climbing club.

30 of the 40 climbers(75%) voted to keep the bolts on the Compressor route.

Here is a link to the details of the 2007 meeting and vote:

http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?l=2&keyid=35788

Kimbo

Boulder climber

seattle

Jan 20, 2012 - 10:37pm PT

bhilden hits it.

Twas an arrogant act that can only be forgiven by the youth of the kids involved.

Now for the rest of you....

Kimbo

Boulder climber

seattle

Jan 20, 2012 - 10:43pm PT

I can't help but think of the effect this might have on the locals' business dependence on gringo thrill-seekers?

Whitey comes rolling into town, thinking he, always "he", knows what's best for the area in question, without bothering to consult the local populace that actually lives there.

Another neo-colonialist adventure, masquerading as an "ethical" maneuver.

I think the locals have had enough of whitey's "ethics".

ionlyski

Trad climber

Kalispell, Montana

Jan 20, 2012 - 10:50pm PT

So cool that they chopped it. And awesome to see all the panty wringing over it too.

To the post upthread with the insinuation they just did a route in better style so felt privileged to chop it, that is complete shallow thinking on your part. These guys are going around doing every route they do in better style. Do you see them out chopping all the routes they climb? No. The compressor route was completely outlandish in it's time then and still is. It was a one of a kind; a no brainer. Nobody liked Maestri doing that. I have never heard a positive remark about Maestris style when he went to war with that rock. It should have been chopped a long time ago.

Thanks Hayden and Jason,

Arne Boveng

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 20, 2012 - 10:55pm PT

So "whitey" can grid bolt the planet without permision but environmental restoration is colonialism.
R
I
G
H
T
!
!
!
Drill Baby Drill

Just take another look at the pic a few pages back, do those all have to stay?
R
E
A
L
L
Y
?
?
?

Sometimes it seems to me that the uber-advocates of bolting are as dogmatically fixed as NeoConservative Tea Partiers.
Hey maybe Sarah Palin want'd to summit ST. Now what will she do?

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 20, 2012 - 11:46pm PT

If this route was littered with fixed ropes that had been left up after an ascent that didn't even reach the summit and someone went up and chopped them all, would there be a huge outcry? If not, what makes bolts so much different as to be inviolate?

schnaxlmeister

Mountain climber

Canmore, Alberta

Jan 20, 2012 - 11:50pm PT

I guess I am one of the few who disagree with the chopping of Maestris bolts. Although I have deep respect for Jason's and Hayden's accomplishment and I think it is a step forward in style, I do believe that there is a place for Maestri's Komressorroute. A big piece of history (maybe a bad one) indeed, and a testimony of human will power. Who are we to decide what was a good or a bad style those days, which route comes next? I just returned from a road trip to the States- are we now going to chop the bold ladders on Moonlight buttress, the Nose or the Grand Wall in Squamish, just to name a few. Those routes have all been freed long time ago, with new bolts added to climb variations (like on Cerro Torre) and nobody dared to rappel the original line afterwards to chop the bolts.
On Moonlight Buttress I was free climbing while passing a party who was entirely aiding the route with big haulbags and portaledges. The grin on their faces and the stoke in their eyes convinced me once again that a route can be climbed in many different ways, and still be fun and challenging to everyone. Jason and Hayden, as someone who has climbed the Compressor route in the early nineties, I want to tell you that at that time it was one of my deepest experiences I ever had, and with chopping the line you robbed this chance for future potential aspirants.
And to Rolo, all my respect goes out to you, don't take this wrong, it's just a different opinion. The great Silvo Karo (you praise and quote earlier) and partners put up 2 wild lines on the south and east face, both end up at the base of the headwall of the Comressorroute, so both are basically variations of the so much criticized Maestri Route. Furthermore, both used extensive aid climbing with fixed ropes over a long period of time and a much later era. And did you not use Maestris bolts on you way down from you grand traverse of the 3 Torres?
Although Everest got alredy climbed without oxygen in 78, the majority of climbers still use it in order to climb the highest peak in the world and have a life time experience. Although I don't support the style and I would never attempt to climb it that way, I don't think we should shut down the mountain for Oxygen users.
On a different note, thanks to all the climbers who where involved in the rescue/recovery attempt of Carlyle, you guys rock!

rincon

Trad climber

SoCal

Jan 20, 2012 - 11:50pm PT

I think it's bad for Americans to be chopping routes in other countries as if they own the place. I don't think tourists have the right to chop bolts here.

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 20, 2012 - 11:53pm PT

I think it's bad for Italians to be bolting routes in other countries as if they own the place.

Jennie

Trad climber

Elk Creek, Idaho

Jan 21, 2012 - 12:12am PT

In a sense, Italians do own Argentina. Half of the country's population are of Italian heritage.

I'm not sure how Argentinians feel about U.S. and Canadian climbers...but most Argentines are descended from colonial-era settlers and of the 19th and 20th century immigrants from Europe, and 86.4% of Argentina’s population self-identify as White-European descent. An estimated 8% of the population is mestizo, and a further 4% of Argentines were of Arab or East Asian heritage. In the last national census, based on self-identification, 600,000 Argentines (1.6%) declared to be Amerindians.

MarkWestman

Trad climber

Talkeetna, Alaska

Jan 21, 2012 - 12:16am PT

Not defending the Maestri route in any way, but noting some hyperbole here.

One would be lead to believe by a few postings here that the Maestri route's bolt ladders enabled throngs of unskilled and inexperienced climbers easy passage to the Torre's summit. Which climbers would those be? I seem to recall the 1980's and 1990's, and even some of the more recent, list of successful ascents being a who's-who of modern alpinism. Moreover, in five trips to the area I don't recall coming across guided teams aiming for the Torre much less gumbies thinking they could sneak the Torre by clipping up bolts.

The route's bolt ladders comprised only a portion of 25 pitches of steep, moderately difficult technical terrain that had to be negotiated very quickly and efficiently to have any reasonable chance of success-bolts or not. No apologies for Maestri's travesty but the implication that "non-alpinists" could, or often did, easily ascend this route isn't altogether true.

What's done is done. I sympathize on some level with the leave-it-be sentiment and I'm certainly not a proponent of chopping routes because top climbers found a way to avoid using the fixed gear- but perhaps this route, vilified from the beginning, has been a sacrifice waiting to happen for 40 years. I think it would be helpful also to withhold judgment on Jason and Hayden's motives until we hear them speak, which they undoubtedly will.

FWIW, my only attempt on Cerro Torre went for the Ragni route, because the Compressor's bolt ladders and heavy traffic during the rare weather windows held no interest to me compared to the remote and surreal ice climbing on the wild wilderness of the west face. We had a hell of an adventure but got bouted by winds 70 meters from the summit. It stands right now as the longest journey I will have to make to do but 2 more pitches of climbing.

Carry on-

Clint Cummins

Trad climber

SF Bay area, CA

Jan 21, 2012 - 12:33am PT

> The route's bolt ladders comprised only a portion of 25 pitches ...

8 of the 15 pitches Maestri established were bolt ladders.

Topo: http://pataclimb.com/images/climbingareas/chalten/torres/topos/torre/compressor1.gif

MarkWestman

Trad climber

Talkeetna, Alaska

Jan 21, 2012 - 12:47am PT

Hey Clint- again, I'm not in any way downplaying Maestri's poor style.

Actually looking at the detailed hand drawn topo Dave Nettle gave me, it shows 9 out of 22 pitches having bolt ladders. The first 9 or so pitches had been climbed in 1968 I believe. In any case my point was that the route has enough real climbing beyond the bolt ladders, plus the approach and the need to go fast due to short windows in weather, that I don't think it is quite accurate to infer it was a route that any weekend warrior or unseasoned alpinist could go 'bag'. I know a few very good climbers who have gotten fairly worked on it and not necessarily because of the weather.

That's all.

Clint Cummins

Trad climber

SF Bay area, CA

Jan 21, 2012 - 01:01am PT

I agree - it looks like there are plenty of challenging pitches (20/27) - not a complete clip-up / via ferrata.
Now there are more like 27/27 challenging pitches....

Probably some people will reach the headwall a bit slower without the bolt ladders, the weather window will have closed or they will realize it will close before they can free/aid the headwall pitches. They may be bummed out, or maybe they will feel it's OK because they didn't want to climb the bolt ladders anyway.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jan 21, 2012 - 01:04am PT

Does anyone know when Jason and Hayden will be back, and perhaps able to post a first-hand account of what they did - here or elsewhere? (Bearing in mind that it may have commercial value...)

We have Rolando Garibotti's report (the first post), and the post to Colin Haley's FaceBook site. Colin seems to have been an eyewitness, from a distance; Rolo doesn't say whether he was a witness, or if his information is from another source, or even Colin. Did anyone clearly see what Jason and Hayden did, or talk to them later about it? What are the sources?

Hard information is important as a basis for intelligent discussion.

rolo: Here are the facts:

During the descent they chopped a good portion of the Compressor route, including the entire headwall and one of the pitches below. The Compressor route is no more.

Haley: "BIG NEWS: Although Jorge and I unfortunately fluffed this weather window, today we got to watch history being made through a Canon G12 zoom lens at Norwegos: Hayden Kennedy and Jason Kruk made the first fair-means ascent of the SE Ridge of Cerro Torre. Although I'm not 100% sure about the details, I think they took about 13 hours to the summit from a bivy at the shoulder, which is amazingly fast considering the terrain. The speed with which they navigated virgin ground on the upper headwall is certainly testament to Hayden's great skills on rock. Bravo! They might be in the mountains several more days (more good weather coming), but I'm sure we'll hear the details soon!"

Once there is full information about what Jason and Hayden actually did, perhaps I'll comment.

On a side note, it might be difficult to fill whatever holes have been left. The headwall is by all accounts a place that's often stormy, wet, and icy. Challenging conditions.

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Jan 21, 2012 - 01:16am PT

Who are we to decide what was a good or a bad style those days, which route comes next?

Answer: The two climbers who just free climbed the thing. They didn't ask for my permission, and I hope they would consider our opinions about them none of their business. That's how you have to think if you're forging new worlds.

The parade has already passed by the ones of us who wonder. To those out on the thin end of the wedge, it's not a matter of right or wrong. It's always a matter of: Can I do this. And if I can, I will. No complaining and no explaining. That's for the rest of us - looking at the ass end of the parade, slowly receeding . . .

JL

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA

Jan 21, 2012 - 02:16am PT

John,

I don't know if it changes your answer, but as a bit of a clarification the guys on Cerro Torre didn't free climb the Compressor Route. Their route still has aid up to A2. They just found a way around using Maestri's bolts. Does that change your response?

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 21, 2012 - 02:17am PT

I understand that for some people it hurts to compare the Compressor route to their national toy: the Nose. But in both cases Harding and Maestri were violating the dominant ethics of the time. In both cases their achievement was an expression of human willpower, stubborness, rebellion, anarchy and outrageousness. Most climbers support the purest ethics, but we also need these outstanding characters and their routes are, we like it or not, a monument of less collectively accepted behaviors.

The Italian-American-Argentinian Rolando Garibotti always heavily and unfairly criticized the Maestri "ferrata", which for most climbers is still a super-challenging route. He carried on a systematic anti-Maestri propaganda suggesting implicitely or explicitely to "purify" the Compressor route. But he was smart enough. He didn't have the courage to expose himself, but "sent" two indoctrinated boys to do the dirty job.

This shows something to me. That climbing ethics is a no man's land. That anybody can go in a different country and play the policeman to arbitrarily bolt or chop historical routes. If argentinians would have done it would have been more acceptable. Now, I'll see how much bolts these two guys removed from the Compressor route. And I hope they are consistent and brave enough to do it in their own country, possibly starting from the Nose. If this is not the case, I'll adopt myself their arbitrary attitude and I'll do everything possible to carry on their mission. This is a promise.

Kinobi

climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 02:26am PT

Let me tell you my non american point of view.
I apologize for my english.

In my apionion, you americans are not getting the point how arrongant you can be. In general, non in the mountains. As a country that represent citizens.

Don't you like Saddami Husssein: bomb Iraq and kill thousands of people. And leave a mess.
DOn't you like Afganistan: go there an bomb all. And leave a mess.
Don't you like Panama: bomb the towns. And control all.
Don't you like Grenada: Invade them... And control all.
I can go on for hours.
What's next, Iran?

Whatever it was right to chop, or leave there, the compression bolts at their choice, I think everybody could have decided, but not americans.
Best
Emanuele

Greg Barnes

climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 02:35am PT

In my apionion, you americans are not getting the point how arrongant you can be.

Don't equate the criminal actions of the US as a global superpower with dumb little arguments over a few pieces of metal on some rock. The victims of US aggression number in the millions and a single life is so much more important than some bolts in a rock...

Do you think all Italians wanted to join the Axis? I seem to remember stories of more than a few Italian soldiers welcoming Allied troops because they'd been against joining with Germany all along.

There are more Americans against US foreign policy than there are Italians in total.

Kinobi

climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 02:36am PT

Man-tana: you see, you are not getting the point.

You americans believe you are always right and you can do whatever you want whenever you want, wherever you want.
Bolts, money or bombs.
Leave, you americans once in a lifetime, somebody else in this world, the right to decide.
Ciao,
E

bmacd

Mountain climber

100% Canadian

Jan 21, 2012 - 02:40am PT

it was a Canadian driving the bus you myoptic Knob !

stefano607518

Trad climber

italy/austria/switzerland

Jan 21, 2012 - 02:42am PT

wow Emanuele,
do not be so extreme...
one of the guy is canadian anyway....

all i want to state here is that i think that the next will be the nose.

promised (even if a climb another route close to it by fair ...is aided climb fair??? means)

S.

stefano607518

Trad climber

italy/austria/switzerland

Jan 21, 2012 - 02:44am PT

ehy kinoby you are off topic...and it´s getting silly and useless.
It´s even a bit dumb your position i must say ;-)

Brady

climber

Boulder, CO

Jan 21, 2012 - 02:46am PT

Jimmy Chin and I tried to climb the Compressor Route in 2001. We got up to the shoulder and did some character building in an ice cave but never got a window for an attempt. So we spent the better part of a month carrying gear around, slack lining and hanging out with John Bragg in Campo Bridwell. John was down for a solo attempt on Fitz Roy but suffered from the same lack of good weather. We were honored to hang out with him, but there was one problem. He kept calling our route the “bolt route”, refused to call it anything else and couldn’t understand why anyone would want to climb it. This initially harshed on our buzz and later caused us to question our intentions. During our last few days I eyed the direct route up to the col de Esperanza and decided if I were ever to return I would attempt the Ferarri (Ragni) route. I just couldn’t get “bolt route” out of my mind. I’ve stood on top of Fitz Roy twice but never returned for another round on Cerro Torre. I’ve largely given up alpinism for various reasons, but I still think about Cerro Torre and long for one more go on it. If I were to do one more alpine trip, that would be it.

I’m not entirely comfortable with what Jason and Hayden did, for reasons that have been well documented above. Then again I didn’t initially like John Bragg’s opinion of our route of choice either, but I came around and began dreaming of climbing one of the world’s greatest mountains by fair means. In spite of all the self-righteousness in this thread, the removal of the Maestri bolts was morally ambiguous and always will be.

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA

Jan 21, 2012 - 04:29am PT

FYI, Hayden Kennedy is the son of Michael Kennedy long time editor of Climbing magazine and now Editor-in-Chief of Alpinist. I wonder what his feelings are about the chopping of the Compressor Route?

New Age II

climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 05:21am PT

I see no difference between the Nose and the way the compressor .... on both the streets there are people that go up in the stirrups and people (the Nose) that have done it for free ... but Lynn Hill did not controversy, saying unrivet, everything that does not serve on the Nose ... maybe this year will unrivet Rolo in the Nose ... of course, must do so for free. :-))
Excuse my English .... SALUT

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 21, 2012 - 06:29am PT

Who are we to decide what was a good or a bad style those days...

Largo covered the essentials in his response, but it should be noted there are plenty of older folks here who know exactly what was good or bad style in those days and if you dig around on google you will find many of them expressed their displeasure with Maestri's debacle in writing at the time.

Also, 'history' is a decidedly low bar which includes the worst of who we are along with the best and in this case one person's 'history' is another's stain to be removed at the earliest opportunity. Some history we're saddled with, like Jardine's chiseled traverse, and there's little to be done about it, but Maestri's debacle has never been that as the bolts are easily rectified and could have been cleaned up at any time. Definitely a case of better late than never from my perspective.

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Jan 21, 2012 - 07:43am PT

Funny how most of us americans can not hear it when forigners tell us how arogant we are. we simply tell them they are off topic..

Scole

Trad climber

San Diego

Jan 21, 2012 - 07:53am PT

I think they forgot to take this with them.

Rockymaster

climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 08:38am PT

FOR ALL OF YOU POSTING A REPLYING HERE... DOES ANYONE LIVES IN CHALTEN??!

I DO,and the feeling donw here is pretty much the same as when David Lama left all the trash up there and the they returned fully ashamed to what they did...

THESE GUYS, ALTHOUGH THEIR CLIMB WAS GREAT, SHOULD DO THE SAME;

For those of you that climbed and been in the Chalten area wouldn't even think about of doing something as silly as like these guys did.

WHAT's DONE IS DONE, LEAVE HISTORY AND THE MOUNTAIN IN PEACE...

gimmeslack

Trad climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 08:46am PT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGlnBaqC6kw

ezy

Mountain climber

padova

Jan 21, 2012 - 09:08am PT

Sorry for my poor language.

I agree with the views of Enzolino, Kinobi, fòradaiball, New AgeII.

We do not know exactly what happened and the details of the great performance of Hayden Kennedy and Jason Kruk but if what I read about the wipeout of the Compressor Route is true not only my strongest critics, but the need to open a wide debate involving the public throughout the mountaineering community.

The style and motivation of Cesare Maestri that can be defined in many ways indefensible but which are part of that anarchy inherent in going to the mountains and has always been inherent in climbing.

And precisely because of this anarchy, this freedom, we should not criticize - just to stay on Torre Egger and Cerro Torre - on the routes 'construction site' more open seasons, or those made entirely from the fixed ropes on the compressor, as well as on the aluminum box.

But criticizing Maestri destroying his route means step into his own defects. With no action because Taliban historicizes, with ignorance, historical and human context in which the events took place in 1970.

Because does not reflect the opinion of the mountaineering community as it did in 2007 thanks to the local climbers led by Vicente Labate
http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?l=2&keyid=35788

Because hypocritically takes away the bolt from Compressor route and other uses in their route variation

I think that as these events were held on climbing and do not make it offends the memory of great climbers, not only to teachers but Steve Brewer and Jim Bridwell, Bill Denz, Paul Pierre Farges, the Italians of the first winter, Pedrini, Reinhard Karl and hundreds of other great climbers ...

The boundary that lies between tradition and innovation, modernity and the past experience is weak, and a strict ethical judgments, however, should not excuse ourselves from than ever, mountaineering and human, towards those who went before us.

grazie a tutti

http://alpinesketches.wordpress.com/

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 21, 2012 - 09:28am PT

It is funny that I did not see this much outrage from Internationals when David Lama was going to rap bolt the thing and left all his heavy stuff behind. Hmmm???????.

The real "disrespect to those that came before" was Maestri's.
He took his own, his partners and his country's exceptionally proud history of alpinism and left a steaming coiler on it for the whole world to see. So, NOW, what if there is a more logical route instead? A route synergistically connected to the mountain not imposed upon it. A route with a more appropriate number of bolts. I think that is a good thing. The cleaning down of the Bolt Route was not a disrespect to the great heritage that came before. It was a tribute to it. Maybe now Toni can rest in peace.

Personally I think it would be awesome if some near future team had the strength, temerity and where with all to lower the Compressor down carefully. Put that in a museum and salute it. Sadly it will probably just get chopped by man or mountain and end up as shrapnel all over the place.

gimmeslack

Trad climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 10:00am PT

As best as I can tell:
//You're wrong, dear one wire, it will be fun to see your reaction when climbing the Nose and other emblems of American will disappear, because of your arrogance, but this bitch in the censer. In addition to the damage, but the prank .... but it is only begun, for you I would not be very quiet. Before the Masters no one has gone up, the others are American stories, and are good for any child at bedtime.
With your system, anyone can get on any route in the U.S., using less material is fixed to those who have preceded him, is authorized to remove anything that is not used, it seems logical.
The fact bring up Toni Egger, in this context, it shows the stupidity of those who do not know what to invent, to divert attention from the bravado of his brothers.
If it is true that every action has a reaction, you will have many surprises, good luck.
For your comments, you only have to be ashamed.//

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 10:07am PT

These threats to chop The Nose and other El Cap routes are kind of funny. I guess the people posting them don't realize how easy it would be to re-establish any of the routes in question. But go ahead I suppose.

Actually, for enzolino and others claiming they will do this, I've got a better idea for you. Chop the bolts/rivets on a route called "Nightmare on California Street". You should be able to easily get up most of the route from the ground, and then you can chop it on the way down. That would be harder to fix than The Nose...

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 21, 2012 - 10:12am PT

Yeah we know you Italians Love your Ceasars.
Butt don't get your pasta in a pinch.
You have my permission to haul compressors all over ElCrap if you want and pull or chop what ever isn't necessary. There, feel better?

ALPINEMAN

Trad climber

bogota

Jan 21, 2012 - 10:25am PT

The fact that Kruk/Kennedy have acted for cleaning away but have "failed" even their (they clipped bolts, 5 sure)

In previous attempt (2011) the same Kruk should not even start with the bolt kit if they speak of "by fair means" on a "via ferrata"

5 bolts instead of 300 bolts, the concept is the same

bergbryce

Mountain climber

South Lake Tahoe, CA

Jan 21, 2012 - 10:37am PT

Has anyone thought maybe we should wait until we actually know what has been accomplished/chopped before making too many rash judgements??

Do we actually know definitively what has been chopped??

ALPINEMAN

Trad climber

bogota

Jan 21, 2012 - 10:52am PT

100 bolts

Luca Signorelli

Mountain climber

Courmayeur (Vda) Italy

Jan 21, 2012 - 10:55am PT

I wanted to stay out from this thread, particularly because I don't see whatever merit may have a shouting match about the celebration of what sounds like (from my very un-informed point of view) an act of vandalism belittling one of the greatest climbing feat ever. But when I read lines like "We know you Italians all love Maestri", I simply lose it (particularly as it sounds like "We know you Italians cannot judge for yourselves and you've have to resort to national pride when things go bad")

And so: no, the overwhelming majority of "us" Italians doesn't love Maestri. In fact, the overwhelming majority simply doesn't know who Cesare Maestri is (or was). The rest is divided into a larger camp of people who hates him (for various reasons) and a minority who recognize him as a controversial character but also one of the greatest rock climbers produced by the Dolomites scene.

It's no secret (except for those in bad faith, or those who are very poorly informed) that there's very little love lost between Maestri and a lot of Italian climbers (particularly on his own home turf). In part because Maestri used to be genuinely difficult to deal with (brash, arrogant, often rude and almost impossibly un-PC), in part because of jealousy, and in part because (I've been told) of reasons that have nothing to do with climbing. And there's a lot of people who would simply dance on Maestri's grave and is looking forward to see him be publicly humiliated. Personally, I don't like people being lynched if there's no apparent good reasons for the lynching, but I suspect that if so many people seem to dislike his (former) ways, he must have done something to put himself in trouble.

But the problem his - that's EXACTLY what happened to Bonatti or Claudio Corti... they got publicly humiliated by people who thought they knew better. And with time, it was recognized their accuser were wrong, and had acted for ignorance, malice and stupidity. Are we not sure we're doing the same mistake? It's quite clear for anyone who hasn't lived in Mars for the last 10 years that Garibotti doesn't like Maestri, but it's a personal dislike enough to justify something that's becoming alarmingly like a persecution?

As for the Compressor Route, I don't know. The all free climb is definitely a great climbing feat, but the chopping makes me VERY uneasy. Never been to Patagonia myself, but all the people I know who climbed it are all singing praises to its quality, bolts or not. And my understanding was that the local community had voted AGAINST the chopping, has this changed?

The threat to chop bolts on El Cap is of course absurd, but still - why at the same time doing the same thing on the Compressor Route is fair enough? Because of the nationality of those involved? Because Patagonia is not the US and it's remote enough so people can act there at their whim? But if chopping a route that's there since 40 years is ok, why shouldn't be ok to do the same on El Cap on routes that are now climbed free?

NOTE ONE: I'm not replying nonsense mentioning my nationality in relation to Maestri. It's stupid, rude, untrue and well below the standards of Supertopo as I knew it. Ok?

NOTE TWO: To fellow Italians posting here: please behave yourselves, and refrain to write here idiotic threats (or simply, try putting your words in the right context)

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 11:02am PT

"The threat to chop bolts on El Cap is of course absurd, but still - why at the same time doing the same thing on the Compressor Route is fair enough? Because of the nationality of those involved? Because Patagonia is not the US and it's remote enough so people can act there at their whim? But if chopping a route that's there since 40 years is ok, why shouldn't be ok to do the same on El Cap on routes that are now climbed free?"

Plenty of climbers, such as Jim Beyer and Mark Twight, would argue there is no difference and that one has an equal right to chop bolts as to place them. So if someone wants to chop a route on El Cap (as Beyer did with the WOEML when he put up Martyr's Brigade) they should just go ahead and do it, and be prepared to hear/deal with any backlash (as well as recognize that if it's a route people care about climbing, it will undoubtedly get re-established quite quickly).

ALPINEMAN

Trad climber

bogota

Jan 21, 2012 - 11:04am PT

As for the Compressor Route, I don't know. The all free climb is definitely a great climbing feat

what???

A2... not free climb

and other line bolted!

ALPINEMAN

Trad climber

bogota

Jan 21, 2012 - 11:06am PT

101 little hold for David Lama :-)

New Age II

climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 11:33am PT

They could start to clean the base of the tower ..... as it is full of coils of fixed ropes hung almost everywhere ...! And then ... the 2 young people from where they are dropped from the hill of patience? Stops by to spit that take you faster to the glacier? Or they have made back the mixed part ...??

Johnny K.

climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 11:37am PT

Someone should make a movie about the history of "The bolt route".

Kinobi

climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 11:43am PT

For my fellow citizens writing in Italian.
We are showing the same attitude americans show outside their borders: they assume anybody speak their language, they assume everybody understand and they assume everybody agreed with them. We are in a foreign forum, so we are guest. We need to cool down, and keep in mind, we are "guest".

With reference to:
"Funny how most of us americans can not hear it when forigners tell us how arogant we are. we simply tell them they are off topic.."

I would suggest, to most of americans (in general) to sit down outside their country anywhere (anytime) and start listening what people say about them. It will be surprising.
You guys are being hated anywhere. It looks like americans are becoming proud to be hated.
Fair for me, if you are happy.

Ciao,
E

New Age II

climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 11:45am PT

Not all Italians voted Berlusconi ...

nopantsben

climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 11:46am PT

It is funny that I did not see this much outrage from Internationals when David Lama was going to rap bolt the thing and left all his heavy stuff behind. Hmmm???????.

the internationals? philo - you americans are as much internationals as italian people when it comes to patagonia.

americans like you seem to have trouble to understand that they do not own every country that they don't consider on the same level of development as the us.

it's your arrogance that makes people mad.

tarek

climber

berkeley

Jan 21, 2012 - 11:49am PT

I don't know a thing about this stuff, would probably put some crampons on backwards, so I guess that gives me a right to chime in.

--people imply that the bolts were next to perfect cracks--this doesn't make sense, if the grade changes as it seems to have done. Explanation?

--if some megabadasses decide that no metal should ever remain in Cerro Torre, and that only a base jump retreat is appropriate (after demonstrating such), I assume the current pro-choppers would go along with that program. (?)

--can the anti-choppers envision unique rules that might apply to one mountain? A consistent logic in climbing might work within an area/collection of areas, but seems out of reach--maybe even inappropriate--for the globe.

Luca Signorelli

Mountain climber

Courmayeur (Vda) Italy

Jan 21, 2012 - 11:50am PT

@Coz

Hi Scott, thanks for that, anyway, I don't think it's a matter of nationality, I've found supportive and good-natured climber almost everywhere and with every type of passport, and I've also met few bad apples everywhere (including Italy).

Some of my best friends (and some of the people I admire more) are from the US, and some of the people I despise more are born in Italy in my same city.

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 11:52am PT

Not really sure what nationality has to do with any of this. You don't need to show your passport to drill a bolt, nor to chop one.

Kinobi

climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 11:52am PT

With reference to:
"Not all Italians voted Berlusconi ..."

Neither all americans voted Gerge W. Bush or Ronald Regan. But, incidentally, they were elected twice.
Just like Berlusconi.
Best
E

Luca Signorelli

Mountain climber

Courmayeur (Vda) Italy

Jan 21, 2012 - 11:55am PT

Mi offro di tradurre in Inglese i post di chiunque fra gli italiani presenti qui non parli inglese - postare in Italiano in un forum americano ha poco senso e aggiunge alla confusione che sembra regnare qui.

Trans: I offer to translate into English for Italian posting here (who don't know English themselves) - posting in Italian on a US forum makes very little sense and just add to the incomprehension that seems to be rampant here.

ALPINEMAN

Trad climber

bogota

Jan 21, 2012 - 11:59am PT

@Luca translation please, posted on an Italian forum:

18 de Enero de 2012. Descenso del Cerro Torre.

Entrevista a Jason Kruk y Hayden Kennedy, Colin Haley y Rolando Garibotti.

La Cachaña: ¿Retirar los clavos de Maestri era algo que tenían pensado cuando planearon subir al Cerro Torre?

Hyden Kennedy: Este año vinimos a Patagonia simplemente a escalar, no teníamos planeado de antemano retirar los clavos de presión, ni siquiera escalar el espolón sudeste del Torre. Escalamos la Standhardt, Egger, también el Torre pero no lo habíamos planeado hacer necesariamente por esa ruta, pero el clima tan caluroso y las condiciones climáticas adecuadas nos hicieron pensar que teníamos una buena oportunidad para intentarlo. Además, Jason ya conocía bien la ruta porque lo había intentado el año pasado junto a Chris Geisler llegando a unos 60 metros de la cumbre.

Jason Kruk: En ningún momento durante el ascenso pensamos en retirar los clavos de la pared, ni siquiera durante la escalada estuvimos seguros que positivamente íbamos a lograr llegar a la cumbre. Para nosotros en cuanto te ponés a pensar solo en el objetivo, te perdés de vivir la experiencia de estar haciéndolo, ésto es lo importante para nosotros. Fue en la cumbre que tomamos la decisión de retirar los clavos de Maestri.

En el pueblo, el 19 de enero, un grupo de escaladores locales se reunieron en el Puesto Sanitario local habiendo conocido la noticia sobre la “limpieza” del Cerro Torre. Los escaladores y vecinos interesados en el tema se declararon en contra del accionar de los chicos repudiando “…ampliamente la violación del patrimonio cultural e histórico de una de las montañas más emblemáticas del mundo, al haber sido removidos parte de los clavos de la ruta “El Compresor” en el Cerro Torre, acción llevada a cabo por los escaladores Jason Kruk y Hayden Kennedy a pesar del consenso logrado en el año 2007 sobre la conservación de dicho patrimonio.”

Como cuentan los propios protagonistas del grupo de vecinos, “…en el ínterin nos enteramos de que uno de los justicieros de la montaña (EEUU y Canadá) se encontraba en los alrededores, se lo fue a intervenir para pedir explicaciones. Allí se acercó la policía y se lo condujo al domicilio (donde se encontraba su compañero) para que entregue los clavos removidos (a simple vista, calculo, más de 100) y seguidamente se los llevaron a la comisaría para dejar constancia del hecho. Se realizó un simbólico escrache en la casa.”

La Cachaña: ¿Se imaginaron que podía causar estos problemas?

Hyden Kennedy: Lo discutimos y sabíamos que iba a haber mucha gente que no le iba a gustar y que en internet se iba a hablar mucho de esto, pero no esperábamos esta reacción en el pueblo.

Jason Kruk: No esperábamos que una patota enojada nos atacara, eso para nosotros fue muy triste, que no pudieran hablar directamente con nosotros. Hemos perdido amigos por este hecho.

Hyden Kennedy: No esperábamos todo esto y tampoco nos imaginamos que íbamos a terminar en la policía. Igualmente al tomar la decisión de retirar los clavos, Jason y yo teníamos que estar preparados para enfrentar las consecuencias.

Jason Kruk: No nos importa lo que el resto piense de nosotros, tomamos esta decisión y estamos preparados para vivir con eso. Nunca habrá un consenso sobre qué lado tiene razón, así que simplemente lo hicimos.

La Cachaña: ¿Esto es algo común? Cuándo un escalador logra el ascenso sin utilizar los clavos, ¿tiene derecho a retiralos?

Colin Haley: En la escalada, los clavos de expansión o presión (perforados) empezaron a ser utilizados en 1950, antes no existían. Desde que empezaron a ser utilizados causaron mucha controversia, porque te permiten escalar cualquier montaña. Si taladrás clavos suficientes podés escalar lo que quieras sin dificultad. Hubo muchos casos donde rutas que tenían demasiados clavos, alguien los sacó. No diría que es común porque la mayoría de las veces, los clavos se ponen donde tiene sentido ponerlos, donde no hay reparo natural. Normalmente los clavos se retiran de los lugares donde no tiene sentido que estén, como cerca de fisuras. La ruta del compresor es una de las rutas con más clavos del mundo. Por cuatro décadas los escaladores hablaron de sacar los clavos de la ruta del compresor.

La Cachaña: ¿Por qué lo hicieron?

Colin Haley: Las razones para hacer algo así son muy claras para las personas del mundo de la escalada. Y muy difícil de explicar, pero lo importante es el respeto por la naturaleza, creo que sacar los clavos deja limpia a la montaña y ahora solo se puede escalar de una manera limpia, lo que ponés, lo sacás. En un lado está “hago lo que sea para llegar a la cima de la montaña sin importar lo que le hago a la montaña” y en el otro lado está el respeto por la montaña.

Hyden Kennedy: Básicamente es devolverle a la montaña su estado natural.

Jason Kruk: Las personas que nos vinieron a ver enojadas me dijeron que si ellos fueran a mi ciudad e hicieran algo así, los tratarían mal, pero yo los quiero invitar a que vengan a escalar a mi ciudad y hagan lo que hagan se sentirán como en su casa. Yo haré todo lo posible para que se sientan bienvenidos.

Colin Haley: Mi opinión es que esta discusión, parte tiene que ver con la escalada, pero también con el nacionalismo, y creo que muchas de las personas que estaban enojadas no lo hubiesen estado si Hayden y Jason fuesen argentinos. Para mi esa lógica no tiene sentido, las montañas son parte del mundo natural y el Cerro Torre pertenece a todos los escaladores del mundo, sin importar la nacionalidad. Una actitud así, roza la discriminación.

Hyden Kennedy: Otra de las cosas que se hablaron es sobre la historia, nos dijeron que sienten que de alguna manera les borramos parte de su historia, pero la historia está escrita, está hecha y va cambiando. Esta es una montaña muy controvertida y ésto, es solo un capítulo. No se puede robar la historia.

Rolando Garibotti: Yo estoy completamente de acuerdo en todo y quiero recalcar lo que dijo Colin sobre el ser local. El local se vota con el corazón, donde dedicás tu tiempo y ponés tu energía. Para mi, ellos son locales porque vienen acá cada año y le ponen un montón de pilas a estas montañas. Yo tengo vividos más de 15 años fuera de Argentina y nunca nadie me hizo sentir que yo no fuese local, he sacado clavos, repuesto clavos, colocado clavos y nunca nadie me hizo sentir que no podía hacerlo por hablar otro idioma o tener acento.

Colin Haley: La verdad también es que no hay locales en El Chaltén, todos son de afuera.

Rolando Garibotti: La discusión de estos bolts es una discusión filosófica, es una discusión sobre qué sentido tiene la montaña y a qué vamos a la montaña. Los clavos son un atajo para intentar llegar a la cumbre cuando no tenés los recursos para llegar. A mí me interesa la calidad de la experiencia, yo prefiero no llegar a una cumbre si no tengo los recursos antes de usar más medios para hacerlo, es una elección personal, es una cuestión estética. Hay personas que van a ciertas montañas solo por tildar una cumbre y hay otros que van por lo que es la experiencia de llegar hasta ahí, la batalla que implica confrontar la naturaleza en sus propios términos, siguiendo algunos parámetros básicos de la escalada. En cuanto a lo que utilizás, cuánto menos, más ético es tu estilo.

La Cachaña: Al quitar los clavos, ¿no se le quita la posibilidad a muchas personas que pueden escalar esa vía solo con la ayuda de los clavos?

Rolando Garibotti: Pero entonces pongamos una escalera mecánica al Cerro Torre. En algún lugar hay una línea muy gris, porque es un deporte que no está muy definido. Maestri, sin duda, desde el comienzo cruzó esa línea gris a un lugar rojo, lo que hizo Maestri fue una aberración. La cuestión es cuántos medios justifican llegar a la cumbre. Yo voy a la montaña a buscar dificultad, a buscar desafío… ¿y después, uso un montón de medios para facilitar el camino?, no tiene sentido. Alguien podría argumentar que deberíamos escalar desnudos, que no es justo siquiera utilizar las cuerdas. Bueno, hay parámetros de base aceptados entre los escaladores que implican llevar tus dos cuerdas, tu mochila y poco más. Todo lo que sale de eso, taladro, cuerdas fijas y más tecnología, tiene menor valor por una cuestión simple, que estás usando más medios, estás confrontando menos a la montaña es sus propios términos. De eso se trata, de la honestidad y la modestia de confrontar a la montaña en sus propios términos y se trata de la modestia de que si vos no tenés el nivel te basta elegir una montaña más fácil. Y no, mucha gente que hubiese subido al Torre por la vía del compresor hoy puede seguir teniendo experiencias de la misma calidad, basta que suba a otra cumbre, la calidad de la experiencia no va a cambiar, tal vez lo que esas ascensiones requieran de uno mismo va a ser igualmente fuerte, lo que va a cambiar va a ser el objetivo final, no tendrá el nombrecito, pero si nosotros nos limitamos a tener el nombrecito de turista: “yo escalé el cerro torre”, entonces sí, pongamos la escalera mecánica, el helicóptero y demás. Si empezamos con la discusión de que limitamos la posibilidad a otros, no hay límites, se acabó.

Lo que estaría bueno que suceda es armar otra reunión porque mucha gente estaba escalando y así que estén presentes todos, los dos lados. Es lo justo, que nos podamos escuchar todos, todas las versiones y opiniones.

Al final todo es una cuestión de respeto y de respetar los espacios. Los clavos pertenecen a un museo, la historia sigue estando ahí, la historia continua.

justthemaid

climber

Jim Henson's Basement

Jan 21, 2012 - 12:05pm PT

I'm not qualified to have and opinion but there's some great posts from both sides. Carry on.

Sidebar: If nothing else... this thread has illustrated once again... that no one gives a rat's ass about Canadians.

WBraun

climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 12:05pm PT

It's nice to know Italian is our second language ....

klk

Trad climber

cali

Jan 21, 2012 - 12:06pm PT

And so: no, the overwhelming majority of "us" Italians doesn't love Maestri. In fact, the overwhelming majority simply doesn't know who Cesare Maestri is (or was). The rest is divided into a larger camp of people who hates him (for various reasons) and a minority who recognize him as a controversial character but also one of the greatest rock climbers produced by the Dolomites scene.

It's no secret (except for those in bad faith, or those who are very poorly informed) that there's very little love lost between Maestri and a lot of Italian climbers (particularly of his own home turf). In part because Maestri used to be genuinely difficult to deal with (brash, arrogant, often rude and almost impossibly un-PC), in part because of jealousy, and in part because of (I've been told) reasons that have nothing to do with climbing. And there's a lot of people that would simply dance on Maestri's grave and is looking forward to see him be publicly humiliated. Personally, I don't like people being lynched if there's no apparent good reasons for the lynching, but I suspect that if so many people seem to dislike his (former) ways, he must have done something to put himself in trouble.

But the problem his - that's EXACTLY what happened to Bonatti or Claudio Corti... they got publicly humiliated by people who thought they knew better. And with time, it was recognized their accuser were wrong, and had acted for ignorance, malice and stupidity.

Luca's words here bear repeating.

Also Luca offered to translate important Italian posts, not Spanish ones. This is a California site, after all. Anyone who can't read a bit of Spanish should just go home.

heh

stevep

Boulder climber

Salt Lake, UT

Jan 21, 2012 - 12:06pm PT

That's Spanish, Alpineman, not Italian. And my spanish is not good enough that I'd attempt translating.

To all the Italians posting, thanks mostly for your input. But let's not compare a few bolts with the stupidity and loss of life from Bush.

Luca Signorelli

Mountain climber

Courmayeur (Vda) Italy

Jan 21, 2012 - 12:10pm PT

@AM: I can translate Italian into English, not every language out there into English!

@Steve: You're right. I ask fellow Italians here to refrain to put politics into this thread. Both communities will be grateful for that.

Brian in SLC

Social climber

Salt Lake City, UT

Jan 21, 2012 - 12:12pm PT

Since there are a few Italian speakers/readers here...

How about a little help with translation?

Not that there's any connection to all this...ha ha...

Thanks!

stevep

Boulder climber

Salt Lake, UT

Jan 21, 2012 - 12:12pm PT

From Google translate, and not 100% correct, but close:

Edit: Colin and Rolo, if this was not a real interview, or really badly translated, speak up and I'll delete the translation.

Double Edit: Deleted. There are enough hard feelings on this, without even small mis-translations contributing to it. Better to let the protagonists speak for themselves in the native language.

Luca Signorelli

Mountain climber

Courmayeur (Vda) Italy

Jan 21, 2012 - 12:20pm PT

@Brian in SLC:

"Dear Bridwell,

growing old, I've learned that is often better to know someone personally, before judging him. With esteem and admiration, Cesare Maestri"

MH2

climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 12:20pm PT

I like that Google says that Rolo said that visitors (Hayden and Jason?) put a lot of batteries in those mountains.

Probably he actually said they put a lot of energy?

WBraun

climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 12:24pm PT

Luca Signorelli

Thanks for the translation.

That was nice note from Maestri ....

Brian in SLC

Social climber

Salt Lake City, UT

Jan 21, 2012 - 12:31pm PT

Luca Signorelli
Thanks for the translation.
That was nice note from Maestri ....

Big thanks! I couldn't figure out the handwriting.

Yep, nice words. Might apply here too? Hmmm....

gimmeslack

Trad climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 12:32pm PT

With apologies to author(s) if I've made any mistakes (I'm bilingual, but in a hurry...). Too much to translate it fully, but in a nutshell:

It was not premeditated. The decision was made on the summit.

In town on the 19th local climbers gathered at Puesto Sanitario (health center?) declared their objection to the violation of this cultural and historical treasure...

Police went to where climbers were staying (?) and confiscated (est more than 100) bolts.

Climbers had discussed possible repercussions, but had not expected local climber's reaction.

(Jason) "We don't care what the rest think of us, we made this decision and we're prepared to live with it. There will never be consensus regarding which side is right, so we simply did it"

Colin discusses the history of this type of bolts, pointing out that they allow you to go anywhere you want, their controversial use and other routes where they've been used in excess (and chopped).

Why? CH: Thought difficult to explain, the reasons are clear to climbers - respect for the mountain... HK: "Basically to return the mountain to its natural state.

CH: My opinion is that this discussion is partially about climbing, but also about nationalism... Many would not be angry if H & J were Argentinian... And the reality is that there are no locals in El Chalten - everyone is an outsider.

RG: The bolt discussion is a philosophical one. It's about what the mountain means and why we go there. The bolts are a shortcut to something we cannot otherwise attain...

Doesn't removing the bolts prevent those who need them from climbing the mtn? RG: well then let's put up an escalator... It's a gray (vague) line, because it's not a well defined sport. Maestri clearly crossed that line...

(not sure if this is Rolo):
In the end, it's a question of respect and of respecting the spaces (places). The bolts belong in a museum, the history continues to exist there, history goes on.

ALPINEMAN

Trad climber

bogota

Jan 21, 2012 - 12:37pm PT

summary... a stupid act

but their sponsor what they say?

tarek

climber

berkeley

Jan 21, 2012 - 12:42pm PT

stevep,

google has significant errors in there, i'd delete that "translation."

tarallo

Trad climber

italy

Jan 21, 2012 - 01:15pm PT

what i can say about America and Americans,for my personal experience, is the best of best and my dream is one day to go there to live dear kinobi.....and putting the act of two di..heads on sometthing against americans is simply stupid and...at the end is always the same thing..i would like to see kinobi wich american gear he use....

Luca Signorelli

Mountain climber

Courmayeur (Vda) Italy

Jan 21, 2012 - 01:20pm PT

@Brian:

I think what may apply here is "You may well judge the deed, but it's very difficult to judge the doer if you don't get to know him first".

Which is a wise rule to follow in general...

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 01:25pm PT

For all those who keep talking about "Americans" (which is funny because there's one American involved here, one Canadian, and the biggest supporter and communicator of news is an Argentine), would you be less upset if the bolt chopping had been done by say, Ueli Steck and Stephan Glowacz? Or would we be hearing about "you Swiss" and "you Germans"?

shipoopoi

Big Wall climber

oakland

Jan 21, 2012 - 01:35pm PT

well, very interesting to see italians writing here. i commend them for giving our site a foreign flavor and opinion. it demonstrates how big and international this issue is.

in 2007, in researching for an article to justify leaving the bolts in place, i interviewed several american climbers that had actually climbed the compressor route. i asked them if they thought it should be chopped. in every case except one(bean bowers), they felt the route should stay. here are some names of those interviewed, and a soundbite from them.

alan kearny "i don't think it's right to deface history"

jim bridwell "i think that would be a real shame" on if the bolts got removed

mark synnot "for better or for worse, it's part of the history of the sport"

paul gagner "I think it's bullshit that people impose standards of today on routes of yesterday"

greg crouch he has written his own comments on this site about feeling uncomfortable with the chopping of bolts on this routes, as climbing it was, for him, one of the greatest experiences of his life.

dave nettle dave was Bean's partner on the climb

john middendorf i did not interview john but he is/was against chopping

that's seven against the chopping and only one for removing it. this repesents only a fourth or fifth of americans who have climbed the compressor route, and sadly we have lost a couple(shipley/fowler), but i think these climbers opinions should be weighted heavily because they have been up there, clipped the bolts, and seen the overbolting first hand.
steve schneider

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 01:37pm PT

I posted this elsewhere but it fits here too. Let's stop being polite and call Maestri's "route" for what it is: a botch job retro-bolt extension of the 1968 British attempt that, like that attempt, doesn't actually make it to the summit (but gets somewhat closer). Really no different than if someone forced their way up the North Ridge of Latok I past the Lowe/Lowe/Kennedy/Donini highpoint by drilling bolts most of the way, still didn't make the summit, chopped part of their route on retreat from the new summitless highpoint, and called the climb a success.

Luca Signorelli

Mountain climber

Courmayeur (Vda) Italy

Jan 21, 2012 - 01:49pm PT

@Black Spider: it that's true, well, one can start to say, for instance, that the Cassin route at the Walker Spur of the Jorasses "A botch job retro piton/aid extension of the original Charlet/Croux 1923 attempt" (because Armand Charlet and Evariste Croux tried to climb it first all free and without pitons, while the reason Cassin did get through was that he used a large quantity of pitons in spots like the 90 meters dihedral or the grey slabs). Cassin and C. did summit indeed, but still "extension" was.

However, don't expect this attitude to be considered popular in most of the climbing community. Right now the Cassin spur is regularly climbed all free, but no one would dream to remove all the pitons and say that Cassin never climbed it!

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 01:49pm PT

"Probably the most disrespectful, shameful act I've seen in 35 years of climbing."

That seems a bit excessive. At least they climbed the route rather than doing it by jumaring other people's fixed lines.

Luca Signorelli

Mountain climber

Courmayeur (Vda) Italy

Jan 21, 2012 - 01:52pm PT

I second also that a comparison with Stefan Glowacz is a very poor and uninformed on. Glowacz may feel strongly in relation to bolts (as I do, for what's worth) but he would never act in such an irresponsible way.

sandstone conglomerate

climber

sharon conglomerate central

Jan 21, 2012 - 01:54pm PT

If those that are bitterly complaining about the bolt chopping had successfully climbed it (CR) before said chopping, would there still be as much anger towards these guys? Just curious...and damn would I love to see the place. This is an arguement only climbing geeks can love. Who the hell outside of a handful of people even know what Cerro Torre is?

Brandon-

climber

The Granite State.

Jan 21, 2012 - 01:57pm PT

RIP, Bean.

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 02:02pm PT

"@Black Spider: it that's true, well, one can start to say, for instance, that the Cassin route at the Walker Spur of the Jorasses "A botch job retro piton/aid extension of the original Charlet/Croux 1923 attempt" (because Armand Charlet and Evariste Croux tried to climb it first all free and without pitons, while the reason Cassin did get through was that he used a large quantity of pitons in spots like the 90 meters dihedral or the grey slabs). Cassin and C. did summit indeed, but still "extension" was."

Did Cassin make as big of a mess on the Walker Spur as Maestri did on Cerro Torre? For instance, can you stand in one spot and clip in to a half-dozen different fixed pitons on Cassin's route? (the only pictures I've seen of the Walker Spur are from the Colton-McIntyre route). That being said, it's extremely impressive that Charlet and Croux tried to climb the route free without pins in 1923. Also, the distinction between summiting and not summiting a "route", although seemingly lessened in modern times (although Denis Urubko takes that viewpoint to task in the latest issue of Alpinist) is pretty significant when we are talking about making the first ascent of an actual mountain.

To be clear, I'm not even against bolting in the mountains per say. I think that, for instance, Steve House's rant in an old issue of Alpinist over Valeri Babanov placing 2 bolts on the entire Northeast Pillar of Nuptse was pretty excessive. However, as Colin Haley said, the Compressor Route is the single biggest instance in climbing history of "a climber going absolutely insane with bolts".

"However, don't expect this attitude to be considered popular in most of the climbing community. Right now the Cassin spur is regularly climbed all free, but no one would dream to remove all the pitons and say that Cassin never climbed it!"

I don't think anyone is trying to claim that Maestri never actually climbed on Cerro Torre. But he certainly doesn't deserve the credit for the first ascent of Cerro Torre for a route that doesn't even go to its summit.

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 02:08pm PT

"I second also that a comparison with Stefan Glowacz is a very poor and uninformed on. Glowacz may feel strongly in relation to bolts (as I do, for what's worth) but he would never act in such an irresponsible way."

This is completely missing the point. I only grabbed Steck's and Glowacz's names because both of them are great alpinists with strong ethics, not because of any attempt to decided whether they would or wouldn't chop bolts. The question was IF they did, whether their nationalities would get dragged into it to the extent that Kennedy's has here (along with all sorts of people mistakenly calling Kruk an American).

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Jan 21, 2012 - 02:28pm PT

Like many discussions on Supertopo, there's a lot conjecture and speculation. I'd like to hear the climber's own rationale for the chopping, as well as additional details of the relative purity of their own ascent.

Rolo has described his feelings in detail, but I'm not necessarily assuming theirs are the same.

nah000

Mountain climber

Calgary

Jan 21, 2012 - 02:40pm PT

the short version:

anarchy can either be respectful or it can be violent: we can either police ourselves or we will be policed.

nah000

Mountain climber

Calgary

Jan 21, 2012 - 02:41pm PT

the longer argument:

after reading the opinions posted, i find that for me the central question is:

who is to decide the ethics of an area?

i personally happen to agree with chopping the bolts on cerro torre.

because i don’t climb there, i also think my opinion on this issue is irrelevant. it is not my place to control evidence of the past in that location.

even if i was an expert climber who climbed there. i wouldn’t see it as my place to unilaterally control evidence of the past. we no longer live in an era where we gain by having individuals control our collective past (or future).

the world (both climbing and otherwise) is no longer simple enough or large enough for us to rely on hierarchical power.

we no longer live in the time of the individual expert. we are either transitioning into or already in an era of the network. we as a climbing community can either accept this or bury our individual heads in the sand and continue on assuming that placing a bolt is equivalent to pulling a bolt.

if it is not beneficial for individuals to control evidence of the past, then what?

as others have noted one of the most essential and beautiful aspects of climbing, is its anarchy. very few have historically told us collectively or individually what we could or couldn’t do on the mountain.

as i see it, in many areas this is changing and we are left with the following choice:

we can either learn to have dialogue that creates and respects both spaces of ethical consensus and of ethical dissent within our communities
or
we can fight amongst ourselves as individual wild-west-like-men until we invite authority from outside our climbing communities. (ironically i see after writing this, from the posts that have transpired, that this has happened to some degree in el chalten, and we’ve already seen it happen in the u.s. to some degree)

in other words, we can either create our own spaces of limited anarchy or our space of anarchy will be taken from us.

the world is still large enough for every type of climbing to exist somewhere. it is no longer large enough for every type of climbing to exist everywhere.

different types of climbing are mutually exclusive: a via ferrata, and even bolted belays change the experience of a mountain for everyone who follows. and so does the erasing of history.

the determination of what is allowed where, should be made collectively by local climbers (and by local i mean by those who climb there regularly, not something nationality based). if we continue to rely solely on individual climbers what will suffer is the rock (via bolt wars) and/or our freedoms as climbers.

anarchy can either be respectful or it can be violent: we can either police ourselves or we will be policed.

mongrel

Trad climber

Truckee, CA

Jan 21, 2012 - 02:43pm PT

Thanks to Steve Grossman for bumping this old thread:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/825943/Cerro-Torre-the-lie-and-the-desecration
which includes some interesting statements regarding Maestri's own intent that his bolt ladders be chopped, and his starting to do so. FA parties are widely given great albeit not absolute deference about addition of bolts; it seems reasonable also to give them deference when they indicate that bolts they placed should be removed. Certainly a good justification for removing the route; whether that factored into the recent ascenders' actions or not one cannot say (nor does it really matter).

Michi

climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 02:46pm PT

Dear Hayden Kennedy and Jason Kruk

Congratulations for your ascent of the South East Ridge of Cerro Torre and for climbing a line that avoids the Maestri bolt ladders all the way to the summit.

THANK YOU for chopping many of the bolts of Maestri’s 1970 attempt.

Well done.

On an attempt on the Compressor Route we have climbed to 4 pitches from the summit and found the bolt ladders an abomination and sacrilege. I vouched to never return to the Compressor route. Clipping and aiding bolts up a completely blank wall for hundreds of meters has nothing to do with climbing.

It was high time to make Cerro Torre once again what it is: one of the most beautiful and difficult mountains on this planet.

Michi Wyser / Switzerland

Melissa

Gym climber

berkeley, ca

Jan 21, 2012 - 03:04pm PT

Greg Crouch wrote:

I’m a little saddened that opportunity isn’t in the world any longer.

Me too.

Not that I'd probably ever climb it, but it's one of those historic routes where I and others have thought "maybe someday"... I'm not in love with fixed hardware as a rule, but clipping some of the storied old stuff has always made me feel connected to history.

I have to wonder how many thousands of power drilled bolts the young conquistadores clipped to bring their skills up to the level where doing this deed was their due.

MarkWestman

Trad climber

Talkeetna, Alaska

Jan 21, 2012 - 03:16pm PT

A few evolving observations after thinking about this more.

It’s been stated that this was done “to show respect to the mountain”. If this is a matter of man-made devices left behind: I think most everyone is in agreement that 400 bolts was beyond excessive and poor style. But the new route added five more, and the belay bolts and other fixed gear will never be gone unless they are all chopped and the last guy jumps off with a wingsuit. So while chopping may have improved the hardware quantity situation, the simple truth is that as long as we keep climbing it, the mountain can never be restored to its “pristine” state. If this is a matter of style and culture: many indigenous cultures consider climbing certain mountains BY ANY MEANS AT ALL to be “disrespect”. I doubt any of the climbers involved in this feel this way about the hallowed Torre nor would they feel bound to honor such concerns if they were applied to the Torre by the Mapuche, for example. In other words, what one person calls “respect” may be, and often is, another person’s travesty, and when it comes to such trivialities and contrivances as style in climbing mountains, I don’t think it’s a stretch to suggest all such notions are constructs of various egos and personalities and nationalities, especially noting the absurd locals vs. Italians. vs. Americans.vs. Argentinians arguments that are sprouting up here. If it’s a matter of difficulty: it seems like this is the particular form of respect being promoted here, that we “respect” mountains by rising to meet their challenges as closely as possible with the minimal amount of gear and artificial means. Fair enough, in fact, right on, I’ve always tried to embrace that myself.

However, the mountain does not think or care what we do. It’s a mass of rock. It’s not alive and it’s doesn’t relate to us. People, however, do care, do live, and do relate. So talk of “respect”, I think, must necessarily include a human component. One could argue, accurately, that erasing the Maestri route in the face of the existence of a demonstrated alternative now forces the climber to rise to a new challenge in order to succeed on the Torre. This is a good thing! However…to play devil’s advocate, one could argue that by leaving the old route in place, one could have presented a far greater challenge to future alpinists: to choose for themselves to undertake the more aesthetic, more technical (and not substantially moreso, from the sounds of it), and more logistically challenging line. I believe- perhaps naively so- that had this been done, the climbing community would have come to accept the “southeast ridge” route as the proper line up Cerro Torre and would have not only shunned the bolt line in favor of the variations, but would have considered future ascents of it to be illegitimate. And in the process, the human component of respect would have been honored by leaving the old line in place and satisfying those who treasure its historical value.
Instead, that choice has been made FOR everyone, forced upon them, by a handful of individuals, and, additionally, there are now a lot of very angry and upset people. This issue was greater than any one group of people, it wasn't up to a small group of climbers any more than it was up to the "locals" to decide. Nobody owns the mountain. So I don’t think chopping this route has made the world a better place, it has merely satisfied the values of one group. In showing “respect” for the mountain (as defined by some) there has clearly been DISrespect shown to many persons. It also seems like there is a real concern among some in this debate of the mountain being summitted by people who didn’t “earn it”. I would certainly agree that Maestri insulted the climbing community with his creation, but I don’t begrudge the people who repeated his line. I have the choice to honor, or not,what someone considers an accomplishment, but in the greater scheme of things it does not offend my sensibilities or invoke any sense of outrage that people have stood on top of the Torre by way of bolts. That was their choice to engage it, it added no additional litter to the mountains, it (on one level or another) gave people an adventure, it does not affect my choice to climb a more difficult and aesthetic line if I so choose, and any outrage I would have ultimately is a problem of my own ego. I am pretty sure the Torre isn’t offended either, since it does not have a brain. Crouch put it perfectly: the Torre itself holds “titanic indifference” to it all.

Personally, I don’t mourn the loss of the route, it is gone and in the long run people will get on with it and rise up to the southeast ridge. As I pointed out above, I deliberately chose not to attempt this route on my own trial with the Torre. My choice, made without judgment towards those who chose the Maestri instead. In the meantime, though, all this chopping has done really is to create an unnecessary conflict. We have much greater problems in the world that would be worth putting our energies towards, folks. Moreover, with serious access issues bearing down upon us as climbers, this makes us look pathetically weak and disjointed as a community.

Russ Walling

Gym climber

Poofter's Froth, Wyoming

Jan 21, 2012 - 03:17pm PT

WOOO-HOOOOO!!!!!!!

Hello Michi!

Check your email

nopantsben

climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 04:11pm PT

i have written what I think about this subject here:

http://nopantsclimbing.blogspot.com/

i guess I agree with SSchneider, SCosgrove and most others on this one...

Luca Signorelli

Mountain climber

Courmayeur (Vda) Italy

Jan 21, 2012 - 04:35pm PT

@BlackSpider

Did Cassin make as big of a mess on the Walker Spur as Maestri did on Cerro Torre? For instance, can you stand in one spot and clip in to a half-dozen different fixed pitons on Cassin's route? (the only pictures I've seen of the Walker Spur are from the Colton-McIntyre route). That being said, it's extremely impressive that Charlet and Croux tried to climb the route free without pins in 1923. Also, the distinction between summiting and not summiting a "route", although seemingly lessened in modern times (although Denis Urubko takes that viewpoint to task in the latest issue of Alpinist) is pretty significant when we are talking about making the first ascent of an actual mountain.

It wholly depends on what you think it's a "big mess". From the modern point of view, Cassin's climb was definitely "unethical": he used a lot of a gear, including "new" gear (Vibram boots) that had not been used before to attempt the climb, he used techniques that were disliked/frowned upon by the local scene, he went straight through a dihedral in the lower section nailing the hell out it (and this section was basically abandoned from the second ascent of the route because is illogical)... and you can't even say it was the state of art for the day in terms of difficulty, as four years later (1942) Giusto Gervasutti climbed on the same mountain, with much less gear, a route unrivaled in difficulty in the area until Harlin and Robbins opened their route on the West Face of the Drus in 1962 (20 years later!). Back then no one cared because in 1938 people had a lot to think about more important than climbing ethics, but there's little doubt that the route was - in terms of modern standards - "unethical" (if there's anything like "ethics" in climbing mountains)

But still the first ascent of the Walker Spur is a milestone in the history of climbing, a mythical route, and no one would belittle Cassin's achievement, neither decide to unilaterally "clean" the route without asking locally. Heck, if anyone did that, all hell would break loose, and we're speaking of a route 70 years old! When people suggested the Bonatti route on the Grand Capucin had to be cleaned (because new gear allows to climb it without using the old pitons) the suggestion was enormously disliked by a lot of people, including people traditionally anti-bolt. The reason was - the route had been opened that way, why change it?

And there are several instances of "high bolt density" routes that no one in its mind would "clean": think about the Camillotto Pellissier or the Saxon Direct on the Cima Grande di Lavaredo... bolted routes, originally climbed aiding, now free routes of great quality, but the bolts are still there...

I think that the whole debate here is not about being "pro-bolts" or "anti-bolts". Personally, I feel very strongly against retro-bolting of classic routes (and I've even campaigned to preserve the integrity of several lines in the Gran Paradiso area, who had been threatened to be retrobolted by guides), but in this case the point is more - what is the limit of climber's freedom to change an already established route, particularly a route that almost everyone agrees, bolt or not, is brilliant? If you give complete freedom toi a pair of kids to destroy a route that was there since 1970, why can't everyone else given freedom to do what they want everywhere (including - for instance - El Capitan)? And if there's an absolute freedom to chop bolts, without asking permission first, why couldn't be an absolute freedom to PUT bolts?

ALPINEMAN

Trad climber

bogota

Jan 21, 2012 - 04:43pm PT

On an attempt on the Compressor Route we have climbed to 4 pitches from the summit and found the bolt ladders an abomination and sacrilege.

and because you went to try a route that already knew it was so?

perhaps because it was the easiest way to conquer the Cerro Torre?

why so few climbers have tried from the West, because it was inconvenient?

michi: little consistent with what you say now

e9climbing.blogspot.com

Mountain climber

Alps (Euro trash )

Jan 21, 2012 - 04:51pm PT

Luca and Mark Westman you two really manage to be balanced and provide interesting thoughts, much respect for that. Your moderation of the topic I think is much needed.

Luca mention "And there are several instances of "high bolt density" routes that no one in its mind would "clean": think about the Camillotto Pellissier or the Saxon Direct on the Cima Grande di Lavaredo... bolted routes, originally climbed aiding, now free routes of great quality, but the bolts are still there..."

The only of the two routes you mention I have had a look at is Camilotto Pellissier and in my oppinion the big difference is that there is not splitter cracks next to the huge number of iffy bolts providing great natural protection(when climbed free most cant make use of all the bolts and all are of questionable quality)and that's a distinct difference to the Compressor route.

To "clean" Camilotto Pellissier would most likely also mean retro bolt a slightly different line some thing very different to the Torre chopping.

A bit of topic sorry

squishy

Mountain climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 05:03pm PT

Best post I have read on the subject...

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 21, 2012 - 05:19pm PT

Look at it. Hard to imagine this being anyone's idea of a 'history' worth preserving.

And if this is really your idea of 'history', I'd suggest contacting the Argentine police for a 'historical' Maestri key fob of your very own.

Good job boys...

MarkWestman

Trad climber

Talkeetna, Alaska

Jan 21, 2012 - 05:38pm PT

Healy-
Indeed, it's ridiculous. Yet, it's history nonetheless, and your disgust with it doesn't give you or anyone else the inherent right to remove it given that the field of opinion is fairly evenly divided and emotions obviously run high around the issue.

I think the most effective expression of one's disgust with that mess would have been to avoid it and climb the new, and better line, or the west face, or El Arca, and leave it for others as an exhibit of what not to do. Lead by example rather than imposing your will on others would be a step up from what was done in the first place.

KabalaArch

Trad climber

Starlite, California

Jan 21, 2012 - 06:16pm PT

I think they forgot to take this with them.

Scott:

you did your homies proud. So did Steve.

giggio

climber

Milano, Italy

Jan 21, 2012 - 06:20pm PT

Hi everybody.
I didn't climb the routes we're talking about; anyway, as far as I understand, none of the lines above mentioned faced up the mountain like Maestri's.
Because of the style of the ascent, because of Maestri's character, and because of the background (the previous climb called into question) I think this is one the episodes in which the climber's stubborness and ego assertion have been most highlighted and strongly put in front of everybody. Behind any great performace there is something like a "I want to climb that f***king mountain at any cost", but in this case it was so evident and overwhelming that - coupled with a very controversial style - clearly generates disdain feelings.
I can understand very easily the reasons why many people don't like Maestri.

But I think that - after 50 years - that route has become a sort of historical heritage. Maybe a very ugly one, but a sort of monument. For someone a monument to bravery, for someone else to human madness, doesn't matter. For me it represents a warning about how far can our ego push ourselves.

I think that destroying this monument is an act of violence, which is exactly the thing they claim to fight against. I agree with Lovegasoline when he says "Kruk and Kennedy are Sons of Maestri."

Maysho

climber

Soda Springs, CA

Jan 21, 2012 - 06:27pm PT

I really love our sport!

I haven't attempted Cerro Torre, but I have climbed in Patagonia, in Paine...I've jammed up splitter cracks, moving fast with wind and clouds swirling; I've rappelled through the night with the wind screaming in my ears, the sound of the hinges on the weather window slamming shut, ...I've seen the red hued stacked flying saucer clouds marking the dawn, with hundreds of feet to go, and had the wind knock me straight to my ass when coiling the ropes at the base...

So I am totally inspired by these two young alpinists, succeeding to climb the line that should have been done in the first place, boldly, and competently, then rappeling over and pulling the trash (too bad not all of it!) that littered this proud tower, perhaps they didn't think through all the repercussions, but so what, they were there, we were not. The beauty of our sport is if you have the right to drill, someone has the right to remove it.

I really like Largo's post, and have nothing to add to placate the armchair-istas.

To those of us who still aspire to ascend this spire, come on! 5.11 A2 is doable, or there is the West Face. So instead of 1 hour to clip up a ridiculous ladder, it will take 4 hours to climb the terrain, oh well, we can bring ourselves up to the challenge or stay home.

Kudos to Hayden and Jason for a visionary climb!

Peter

ionlyski

Trad climber

Kalispell, Montana

Jan 21, 2012 - 06:28pm PT

Yet, it's history nonetheless

Oh, that's bullshite! Just because a crime was committed in the past, doesn't make it history we need to keep as nostalgic.

Arne

ionlyski

Trad climber

Kalispell, Montana

Jan 21, 2012 - 06:30pm PT

Mount Rushmore is history too, yet as the Lakota people know, it should be bull dozed.

Maestri's attempt wasn't a route and none of us are obligated to keep it.

Scole

Trad climber

San Diego

Jan 21, 2012 - 06:37pm PT

I have to weigh in on the side against chopping the compressor route.It is pretty arrogant to assume that a route done well before these guys were born is invalid. To be sure there were too many bolts, and there were obvious cracks nearby, but when the route was first climbed there was no modern gear,nailing those big flakes would be much harder than it is with cams, and speed climbing wasn't even a concept.

There are lots of bolted routes that I don't approve of, but that does not mean I can, or do, chop at will. Same thing goes here, if you don't like it, don't climb it, but leave historical routes alone. Chopping on rap is no better than drilling on rap.

If you haven't climbed the route, how can you judge it: How can you form an opinion without personal experience?

Scott Cole

stefano607518

Trad climber

italy/austria/switzerland

Jan 21, 2012 - 06:44pm PT

ehy michi fro CH...
i am italian, i climb everywere...
i live in switzerland

i think you guys in switzerland cannot really speak against the bolts ;-)

trad is not is not well known in switzerland... many routes were bolted even in the N-Eiger...

a little paradise in at the grimsell pass....

let´s see how long it stays before the make a mandatory insurance from climbers in CH....

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 21, 2012 - 06:47pm PT

What Maestri did to Cerro Torre is akin to what Laszlo Toth did to to Michelangelo's La Pieta'.
A crime against us all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laszlo_Toth

sempervirens

climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 06:52pm PT

How did they haul the gas-powered compressor? How much would that thing weigh? That's a bit of a feat in itself, isn't it?

MarkWestman

Trad climber

Talkeetna, Alaska

Jan 21, 2012 - 07:01pm PT

Oh, that's bullshite! Just because a crime was committed in the past, doesn't make it history we need to keep as nostalgic.

Arne

Says you. Plenty of others on here say different. Who gets to decide?

I think calling this a "crime" is hyperbole. Controversy is more accurate. Killing someone would be an example of a crime. Stealing a climb from the future generation, controversial as it is, still isn't a crime.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 21, 2012 - 07:11pm PT

Again I humbly ask where was all this outrage when self aggrandizing David Lama pulled his publicity stunt? He added 60 bolts next to cracks and dumped his junk all over the mountain and barely a peep from our Italian friends. But OMG two quiet and competent alpinists finally accomplish a by fair means ascent and do a little litter retrieval and clean up and it's like they shot the pope.

History or no look at the pictures. It was a travesty and an eyesore.
The wall is still there by the way just not all of the overabundant bolts.
Go bat hook up it if pegboard aid climbing is your thing.

Everyone who climbed the "Bolt Route" can still claim to have done so.
No one took that away from them.

ionlyski

Trad climber

Kalispell, Montana

Jan 21, 2012 - 07:14pm PT

When you take probably the sharpest, granite incisor on the planet, and put the combustion engine to it, it's a crime. Let's not sidestep it.

Kimbo

Boulder climber

seattle

Jan 21, 2012 - 07:14pm PT

Some passing thoughts....

-can the removal of the bolts be considered anything BUT a complete disregard for prevailing local opinions? (an earlier post linked to info regarding an '07 meeting where 75% voted to leave the bolts in place.)

-is it not disrespectful to go into another's country and impose one's will in this fashion? (to state this is what maestri did is a rather poor justification, since one act of vandalism never justifies another.)

-will this draw authorities into the game, regulating access, style, etc. etc.?

-will the bolts be replaced? it seems to me that if anyone cared to undertake such a cause, very good arguments could be made to the people who really get to decide what happens here: Argentinians and their government.

nature

climber

Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...

Jan 21, 2012 - 07:17pm PT

(to state this is what maestri did is a rather poor justification, since one act of vandalism never justifies another.)

this opinion holds no validity. it's simply your opinion and thus no conclusion can be made to your prior statement

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 21, 2012 - 07:25pm PT

This is worth reposting. Please try to read it throughly.

Pampero

Trad climber
Buenos Aires, Argentina

Jan 20, 2012 - 02:56pm PT
It was january 16th., 1965. If interested, here follows the real cronology and facts about the Compressor Route on Cerro Torre that began when with Fonrouge we were at the top of Cerro Fitz Roy via the Supercanaleta in the second absolute ascent of this mountain. Because this beatiful and exigent mountain merits the most from climbers we did it in alpine style, mostly in simulclimbing, without fixed ropes, siege attacks or artificial weaponry. Behind and below us the fantastic Cerro Torre in clear skies showed with brightness his beatifull icy shape. Time afterwards - I guess it was 1966 or 1967 - at a table of a bar in Buenos Aires with Douglas Haston, Mike Burke and (was there also Martin Boysen?) we were dreamming about giving a try Co. Torre thru the Southeast Ridge and our fingers traced an ideal line over the SE ridge of one of our Co. Torre's photos we took from Fitz Roy summit. Sometime after, Fonrouge joined the British team that arrived high in this line but misteriously stopped before the icy towers. Wonder how the famous expedition rawplug dissapear...? Don't know by sure, but I always remember the conversation I had with Fonrouge at home - and his decision - after our meeting with Haston and friends at the bar that we'll never use an spit. And I also said thst...to give a try to this empoisoned mountain by Maestri's 1959's claim was a nonsense having manny other virgen summits to make. Later, in january 1970 Maestri asked to meet us in Buenos Aires when he decided to make an attempt to the Southeast Ridge and looked for details of the line but didn't mention the use of a compressor and gave us the idea to try the climb by fair means. As it is known they didn't make the summit this time. Weeks after their return I was in Italy for business reasons and he invited me to Maddona were we spent some time talking about his programmed new intent to Cerro Torre in the following southamerican 1970 winter. No words were said about the use of a compressor for drilling holes to plug spits. Upon his return from patagonia having used the compressor and claiming for his new line on the SE ridge - and also mentionning that the top mushroom was not the true summit-, more doubts appeared about his 1959's line statements. Living for professional reasons in Milan-Italy, since late 1973, I had many contacts with the Ragni Group and got an idea about the national battle around Cerro Torre's Maestri claims at the time of his public statement directed to the Ragni Group saying that his climbs were discussed by whom couldn't climb Cerro Torre. Casimiro Ferrari's answer to Maestri was that the Ragni Group climbs mountains that can prove they climb and start to organize another attack to the west face of Torre. As we know today they made the true first ascent of the mountain. More recently Garibotti, Salvaterra and Beltrame proved that no one had transit before the line claimed by Maestri. In my name and the others that resign the dream to climb for first this fantastic mountain I claim for our rights to delete from the walls of Cerro Torre all the remainings - compressor inclusive - of the rape made by Maestri in the 70's and I think that no one - for any reason - can have more rigths than ours.
Carlos Comesaña

And again for emphasis.

In my name and the others that resign the dream to climb for first this fantastic mountain I claim for our rights to delete from the walls of Cerro Torre all the remainings - compressor inclusive - of the rape made by Maestri in the 70's and I think that no one - for any reason - can have more rigths than ours.
Carlos Comesaña

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 21, 2012 - 07:33pm PT

Is this really the history some of you want preserved?
A heritage of SHAME.

MarkWestman

Trad climber

Talkeetna, Alaska

Jan 21, 2012 - 07:39pm PT

When you take probably the sharpest, granite incisor on the planet, and put the combustion engine to it, it's a crime. Let's not sidestep it.

Call it what you want. What do you call invoking respect for the mountains and environment as justification for removing some (not all) of many 3" pieces of metal from a mountain (and in the process infuriating a significant portion of the community) after having flown 10,000 miles in jet airplanes from North America in order to do so?

As an aside, perhaps building a town (Chalten) that is entirely run on gigantic diesel fueled generators, teeming with tourists and infrastructure at the foot of the mountain, and which has caused an astronomical increase in visitation and resultant environment degradation might be considered a crime as well.

For the record, I'm not one of the infuriated and I won't be losing sleep over the loss of this route. In the long run everything will be peachy, better perhaps. Unless somebody goes back up and starts drilling again.

I like stirring the pot over semantics and hyperbole, sorry. :)

Bababata

Mountain climber

Utopia

Jan 21, 2012 - 07:42pm PT

The history argument is ridiculous - the history will remain whether the bolts are there or not. It's not the bolts that make history, it's the story. And the story is even better now.

We should be thanking Hayden and Jason, not reprimanding them.
The new generation is taking over, whether you like it or not. You ol' farts can foam all you want in front of your computers, trying to protect your frail egos and hurt ambitions. Largo said it best.

Move on. There are plenty of other mountains to climb. If you're not good enough to climb the most difficult and most beautiful one by fair and honest means, then pick one that suits your skill level and moral values better.

Hayden and Jason, thank you for resurrecting the impossible. And stay strong!

Kimbo

Boulder climber

seattle

Jan 21, 2012 - 07:43pm PT

this opinion holds no validity. it's simply your opinion and thus no conclusion can be made to your prior statement

i do believe the "opinion" holds validity:

a vote was taken, 75% of participants (including argentinian park rangers) voted NOT to remove bolts.

This consensual precedent was entirely ignored by the two climbers.

While perhaps not meeting any "legal" definition of "vandalism" (i'm not sure of the vagaries of local law down there), it certainly meets the definition in spirit.

There is a chance that this reckless feckless act by two youngsters will change the climbing climate in that region in ways no-one can foresee.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 21, 2012 - 07:44pm PT

What do you call invoking respect for the mountains and environment as justification for removing some (not all) of many 3" pieces of metal from a mountain...?

Public service.

Kimbo

Boulder climber

seattle

Jan 21, 2012 - 07:48pm PT

Is national sovereignty a consideration for any who support the actions taken by the two youngsters?

Is local opinion a consideration for any who support the actions taken by the two youngsters?

just curious, since it seems little discussed.

MarkWestman

Trad climber

Talkeetna, Alaska

Jan 21, 2012 - 07:49pm PT

Public service.

The portion of the public that shares your ethics, you mean. ;)

Kimbo

Boulder climber

seattle

Jan 21, 2012 - 07:51pm PT

Public service.

@jhealy:

isn't "public service" something that serves the interests of the "public"?

What if the "public" is against the "service"?

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 21, 2012 - 07:52pm PT

^^^ Much of the public is for the service. ^^^

Or would you advocate for monuments to failed hubris and environmental insensitivity?
When does liter left behind become hallowed artifacts?

Is national sovereignty a consideration when foreign climbers place bolts?

Kimbo

Boulder climber

seattle

Jan 21, 2012 - 07:56pm PT

Is national sovereignty a consideration when foreign climbers place bolts?

certainly should be, don't you think?

i can't imagine going into someone else's homeland and either placing bolts or removing bolts, especially without an attempt to understand the local's opinion on the matter.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 21, 2012 - 07:58pm PT

What if the "public" is against the "service"?

I have no doubt commercial guides and folks wanting a bolt ladder up CT will be publicly and vocally indignant, but neither opportunity was available before the gasoline-powered rape of the stone.

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Jan 21, 2012 - 07:59pm PT

We climbed to highest of the ice towers on top of the headwall, but not to the final summit mushroom, and Rolo's already made a point of stating that we didn't "truly" climb the thing. But it was a cool adventure, about 14 hours of fun climbing from the shoulder, and we still got the awesome 360 degree view on top out to the barren lands around (complete with a solo lenticular cloud perfectly formed and coming at us fast--the only one in the sky).

Back then, in 1993, it was soon after a film was made (with helicopter support), and the rumour was that the natural bridge to the final summit mushroom collapsed after the film crew carved out a cave with a chainsaw below the ice bridge. The final summit wasn't climbed for many years after that, apparently, until some folks brought 5' snow stakes to aid their way up the steeply overhanging final 25' of the summit mushroom (which is composed of highly aerated ice).

I often wonder how that aspect of the climb has been dealt with by more recent teams, or if the ice bridge has naturally returned. I always figured it would be good if someone left a stash of the 5' snow stakes for subsequent parties, but then again, the "fair means" could then have been heavily questioned by the pundits as well.

ps, that photo that is going around of pitch 10 is not really representative of the whole route, but it is odd that there are so many bolts in that area. My personal speculation is that Maestri was testing out his compressor, as below that point there are not a lot of bolted sections. He was probably waiting out some weather and just drilled the funk out of things out of boredom, I reckon. It is in a bit of a sheltered spot. It does make obvious, though, that respect for the mountain was not a prime consideration in his ascent.

Kimbo

Boulder climber

seattle

Jan 21, 2012 - 08:03pm PT

^^^ Much of the public is for the service. ^^^

you make a rather bold jump to a tenuous and insecure conclusion.

we have very little data on who is for what (loud proclamations on rather anonymous bulletin boards notwithstanding).

the only "consensus" i'm aware of is the '07 meeting where 75% voted to keep the bolts in place.

and, are you not a supporter of localism and democracy? where citizens and locals get to decide what happens on their land?

i know i'd be pissed if someone came into my climbing haunts and took it upon themselves to start removing routes they disagreed with.

Kimbo

Boulder climber

seattle

Jan 21, 2012 - 08:09pm PT

I have no doubt commercial guides and folks wanting a bolt ladder up CT will be publicly and vocally indignant, but neither opportunity was available before the gasoline-powered rape of the stone.

that's a nice argument, but elides my point:

develop locally informed consensus, and respect the result. you know, democracy in action?

after all, it IS an argentinian mountain, and all foreigners traveling there are GUESTS of the country.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 21, 2012 - 08:15pm PT

Climber's do it all the time. They travel to exotic locales and put up routes by any means chosen often bolting routes to their hearts content. Are they asking the Pakastanis or Chinese or any locals if they mind them bolting their mountains?
We are not talking some home town crag here.
Gym rats, pad people and Joe Gumbies are not lining up to do the Compressor Route.
It is a different breed of beast that goes for these routes. Shouldn't they be the challenge the mountain provides not the one that man steals away with artifice and contrivance?

Kimbo

Boulder climber

seattle

Jan 21, 2012 - 08:16pm PT

and, to run with your "commercial interests" angle for a moment:

if any Argentinians are economically hurt by the actions of these two youngsters, i would unequivocally support their right to re-establish a route that had existed for what, 4+ decades?

to neglect consideration of the livelyhood of locals in favor of some abstract effete "purity" in "rock-climbing" reeks of the most misguided elitism i can imagine.

Kimbo

Boulder climber

seattle

Jan 21, 2012 - 08:29pm PT

often climbers do not consult with locals, but always they should. basic human respect. i think climbers more and more will be running into problems because of their disregard for local opinion. we see it all the time.

Shouldn't they be the challenge the mountain provides not the one that man steals away with artifice and contrivance?

climbing IS "artifice and contrivance", just as surely as any other sport, hobby, or game we humans engage in.

"don't use bolts. use bolts, when necessary (and I'LL define when necessary!), use ropes, no ropes, no oxygen, don't use chalk, must go barefoot and naked" WTF! climbing is way way more contrived and silly than most any game i can think of.

if climbing had no "artifice and contrivance", we wouldn't be having this discussion, because you wouldn't have your arbitrary "rules" to follow.

MarkWestman

Trad climber

Talkeetna, Alaska

Jan 21, 2012 - 08:55pm PT

I have no doubt commercial guides and folks wanting a bolt ladder up CT will be publicly and vocally indignant, but neither opportunity was available before the gasoline-powered rape of the stone.

I wasn't aware that commercially guided expeditions to Cerro Torre were available EVER. I'm sure over time someone has ropegunned a friend or acquaintance up the thing one on one in exchange for beer or a date with their sister but I haven't seen The Mazamas or Mountaineers basic scrambles course queuing up at Norwegos, much less AAI or RMI.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 21, 2012 - 08:57pm PT

if any Argentinians are economically hurt by the actions of these two youngsters, i would unequivocally support their right to re-establish a route that had existed for what, 4+ decades?

to neglect consideration of the livelyhood of locals in favor of some abstract effete "purity" in "rock-climbing" reeks of the most misguided elitism i can imagine.

If commercial considerations are to rule over a restoration of the route then, by all means, it should be a via feratta that gets put back up so as to maximize the opportunities - lordy, we wouldn't want to discriminate against anyone. A real local development opportunity no doubt or anyone making a living off Maestri's bolts should find other work.

Kimbo

Boulder climber

seattle

Jan 21, 2012 - 08:59pm PT

and one more @ healyje:

again, speaking of "commercial interests"-

I'll posit that the two climbers' removal of the bolts makes their adventure potentially WAYYYYY more lucrative than simply climbing a rather pedestrian 5.11 A2 up the side of the mountain.

MarkWestman

Trad climber

Talkeetna, Alaska

Jan 21, 2012 - 09:03pm PT

@Philo: Shouldn't they be the challenge the mountain provides not the one that man steals away with artifice and contrivance?

I think it's ironic that even with the convenience of the bolt ladders and fixed belays it took 42 years for climbers to find a better way up this route, and it goes at 5.11/A2. Seems like the challenge that everyone complains was 'stolen' has been there all along, and until now has defeated all suitors despite the access pass the Maestri line provided. Or, perhaps, the Maestri line narrowed people's focus into summitting rather than exploring.
Either way, 4 decades later it took two of the most talented among us to figure it out.

Kimbo

Boulder climber

seattle

Jan 21, 2012 - 09:06pm PT

If commercial considerations are to rule over a restoration of the route

not really a "restoration", from what I gather. Actually, quite the opposite: a destruction of the most popular(?) route on Cerro Torre (and a relic speaking to one man's Fitzcarraldo episode).

by all means, it should be a via feratta that gets put back up so as to maximize the opportunities - lordy, we wouldn't want to discriminate against anyone. A real local development opportunity no doubt.

no via ferrata was needed, since the old relic served just fine. Now, unfortunately, we might just end up with one.

MarkWestman

Trad climber

Talkeetna, Alaska

Jan 21, 2012 - 09:16pm PT

if any Argentinians are economically hurt by the actions of these two youngsters,

There won't be. The route is not a guide route and never has been. The Argentinian locals make their money off throngs of tourists who go on "ice walks" at the foot of the Torre Glacier. Which by the way is melting incredibly fast. The foot of it is nearly unrecognizable compared to only 2-3 years ago.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jan 21, 2012 - 09:19pm PT

Thank you to the many European and South American, and other international climbers, who have taken the trouble to post here - usually in English, too. It adds needed perspective to the discussion.

Is there any further first-hand news as to what Jason and Hayden actually did? Apart, that is, from the photo of someone holding about 100 bolt-like thingies, that were allegedly removed?

Melissa

Gym climber

berkeley, ca

Jan 21, 2012 - 09:21pm PT

Anders, translate the S. American interview w/ Google if you don't read spanish. It does a decent job, and the direct translations (pressure spikes) are amusing.

Kimbo

Sport climber

seattle

Jan 21, 2012 - 09:21pm PT

thanks for info.

New Age II

climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 09:32pm PT

When there is someone who will make the freedom of the road you can say .... good.
This news is nothing .... are two young people who have only made the cool ....... even if they were the best in the world ..... even if they had released a 5.16a route .... .....

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Jan 21, 2012 - 09:45pm PT

Deuce4. I bet it is more likly that he built a large hanging camp there? Probly had the compressor anchored there, a bunch of fuel etc? just a wild arsed guess but it looks about as bolted up as some aid belays that I have seen photos of from the valley... if the bolting started for real @ that point then it makes perfect sense that the compressor was bolted there for awhile.

healyj is just an anti bolt freakshow on the order of a crazed republican talking about gun rights, abortion and entitlements so I do not expect any rationol thought about the subject from him. Philo on the otherhand I like you and you are dissapointing me with your myopic view on this. There is a long tradition of climbers traveling the world putting up routs. It is very accepted. Weather or not you agree with the style of the compressor route it was a trade route. The thought of forigners chopping trade routes anywheres it just terrible. Especially in national parks! Get a grip and take an honest look at how most of us americans would feel if any damn outsiders chopped one of our trade routes? Think of the jail time a furriner would get for messing with the cable route? probobly end up in Gitmo.

Even though the compressor rout was most likly over my head I never respected it and would not have minded at all if the locals had chopped the route. For and american to go to annother country however and tell them how to to climb by chopping their trade route just makes me cring with embaresment.

New Age II

climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 09:59pm PT

the two young men could make their beautiful street ... once you reach the top, without breaking down the bolts of the Masters. So great were the Mountaineers .... instead they thought with the head of other climbers .. and they are crap!

Clint Cummins

Trad climber

SF Bay area, CA

Jan 21, 2012 - 10:00pm PT

> How many pitches were changed?

From Rolo's post which started this thread:
"... the entire headwall and one of the pitches below."

3.5 headwall pitches + 1 below = 4.5 (judging from the full sized topo)

102 / 450 bolts (450 count from Alpinist article)

[Edit:]
Bolt counts/estimates:
360 Rolo's online guide: http://www.pataclimb.com/climbingareas/chalten/torregroup/torre/SEridge.html
400 Rolo's 2007 article: http://www.pataclimb.com/knowledge/articles/CTbolts.html
450 Alpinist article: http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web10s/newswire-david-lama-compressor-bolts

Clyde

Mountain climber

Boulder

Jan 21, 2012 - 10:02pm PT

Interesting thread. Seems like the defenders of the bolts are relying on 'history' as their excuse for preservation (plus wanting to climb a peak they couldn't do otherwise). Yet they ignore the context of the earlier controversy. If this route had been put up as it was without prior context, I'd agree removing the bolts was a bad choice. Given that Maestri went there with the goal of saying 'f*#k you' to the entire climbing world, it's silly to argue it was even close to an acceptable style of the time. I, for one, am glad some in the climbing world finally had the balls to say 'f*#k you' back.

My opinion doesn't count, of course, I'm just an arrogant American who has never been there. Don't really care about which nation's climbers 'own' the rock and get to decide either-that's an equally silly argument that ignores a century of climbing history, not to mention an eon of human history, around the world.

Glad the bolts are gone, the climbing world is better for it. I'd buy one if they go up on Ebay and the money went towards park preservation.

New Age II

climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 10:07pm PT

French Canadian Italian Americans, etc. ... this is not the speech ... The theme is another.
If these two boys have gone for a variant, why remove the bolts on the Masters? The two other boys used to go up bolts?? YES

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Jan 21, 2012 - 10:14pm PT

Or, perhaps, the Maestri line narrowed people's focus into summitting rather than exploring.

Exactly.

5.11 A2 was being climbed by 1970. A little exploring indeed yielded a more natural line. The bolts clearly generated a tunnel vision effect.

stefano607518

Trad climber

italy/austria/switzerland

Jan 21, 2012 - 10:17pm PT

:) i am imagining the nose unbolted......
would it be fine for you guys around may??? or shall we wait for an anniversary date of the first ascent????
which one has to be considered the first?? first free, first tourist on the top ot first to sleep below the grat roof?

citing Rolo's first post

"as it was, and it should be"

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 21, 2012 - 10:31pm PT

Please by all means clean up the Nose. And the Jardine travesty too while you're at it.

bmacd

Mountain climber

100% Canadian

Jan 21, 2012 - 10:33pm PT

The only thing greater than Cerro Torre itself, is the absolute & utter stupidity of logic, presented by those whom argue against, a Canadian & an American, chopping an Italian bolt ladder, which desecrated an Argentinian peak, whom there by righted, the single greatest wrong, in the entire history of climbing.

New Age II

climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 10:33pm PT

Eventually, a great climber as Rolo, should try to make the path of the compressor for free. Only then can decide to break the bolts. But the level to make the compressor for free does not. So if you want to do the variations, but should not break the bolts on the Maestri. Who is he to decide??

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 21, 2012 - 10:48pm PT

Well now the headwall is clean and ready for the great climbers of the future to show the way.
Maestri should have looked for a more natural line or gone home and waited for someone skilled and driven enough to ascend the mountain or fair terms.

New Age II

climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 10:51pm PT

Tell Philo .... we wait for some person who clears the headwall before making Cumbre??
Do you agree with me that the two young people have not done anything important? Apart from burning the story of a street??

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 21, 2012 - 10:55pm PT

I don't agree with you. Kruk & Kennedy climbed a very significant new line in an amazingly fast time.
The finally accomplished what so many before couldn't.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 21, 2012 - 11:13pm PT

Dude 5.11+A2 is no biggie in the Valley or at your home crag but in Patagonia on Cerro Torre IT IS a BIG DEAL.

Studly

Trad climber

Jan 21, 2012 - 11:26pm PT

so if the new line is 5.11 A2 then they did not free the CM route or the new line. Isn't a all free ascent generally the accepted basis for redoing a route and renaming it. They didn't do this. So the original aid line with bolts is traded for another aid line with less bolts, and the original line chopped on rappel? Since when has this been done or been ok before?
By the way, I'm not knocking these guys fantastic job doing a new climb, just very curious as to their motives and reasons for chopping a route that has been there for over 40 years.

Chief

climber

The NW edge of The Hudson Bay

Jan 21, 2012 - 11:40pm PT

Will anyone police the bolt police?

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 21, 2012 - 11:44pm PT

I am eager to hear Kruk & Kennedy's perspective.

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Jan 22, 2012 - 12:03am PT

The original bolt count seems to inflate with every post--450 bolts?

Maestri placed a lot of bolts, but I'd like to hear from Ermanno or someone who has actually counted them for a more accurate estimate. I recall about 5 1/2 pitches of bolt ladders--the "90 Meter Traverse" (2 pitches), and one section after that for about 20 meters, then the final headwall (3 pitches). Those ladders probably account for 175 or so bolts.

Has anyone actually counted?

Chief

climber

The NW edge of The Hudson Bay

Jan 22, 2012 - 12:44am PT

Most interesting situation.

The Maestri bolt ladders on Cerro Torre have long epitomized bolting run amok and the imposition of technology on the seemingly impossible.
For many of us, The Compressor Route has stood as a dark example of how not to climb a mountain.

I've placed a few bolts in my time, some seemed defensible and others maybe not.
Gordie Smaill suggested "The reason for bolts is similar to why Chinese learn English: a necessary evil to cope with new innovations."
He also suggested "when you place a bolt, it's for your comfort and not someone else's."

We climbers like simple answers to complex questions and zealously carve up amorphous considerations with rigid ideological cookie cutters.
Maybe the Cerro Torre thing is cut and dried, long overdue and will be relegated to a tempest in a teacup. I'm inclined to ponder a couple questions.

Was it necessary to chop the bolts to make a statement about their appropriateness?

If the bolts needed to go, was it Jason's and Hayden's right or responsibility to unilaterally do the job?

Was it "neighborly" behavior?

Peace,

PB

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Jan 22, 2012 - 01:23am PT

The fact of the matter is that it is quite a lot of people's business.
--

Lovegsolone, you missed the point on that rant of yours. I made no evaluation as to the merits of what the two climbers did. My point is that in the moment of actual doing, what you or I think about the Compresso route had nothing whatsoever to do with what the boys did up there. I have no doubt that many will try and MAKE it there businenss after the fact, but the fact has already marched past - should we like it or not is irrelevant, and is our issue, not theirs.

This is a great thing because it separates out the doers from the speculators and gives people a chance to rag on American aggression. It's called stirring the pot and has nothing to do with 70s revisionist history.

Lastly, I think the goal was to find a natural way up the route. Removing the bolts was a consequence of finding and doing the route, and was not the sole motivation.

Again, for better or worse, the people doing the really outrageous stuff out there are simply not checking in with us as to our opinions. Such independent and direct action will never change with the vanguard - of this we can be sure.

JL

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Jan 22, 2012 - 01:24am PT

We are killing our oceans, overpopulating the earth, destroying the rain forests, soiling our air, but thank goodness all will be right with the world now that Cerro Torre has been consecrated.

It is amazing how worked up people get over this.

I love Coz but, GET OVER IT!

I swear that if a guy was able to inflate a parachute on the ground, fly up into the air, go up high enough to then hop into an airplane, there would be skydiving purists who would invalidate the feat claiming he did it in the wrong direction!

fsck

climber

Jan 22, 2012 - 01:28am PT

all this fuss about
metal installed by motor
and a spiteful heart

now she emerges
from her pro bono facelift
"i liked the old her"

fsck

climber

Jan 22, 2012 - 01:50am PT

bella guglia
vestita di grigio
baci a freddo

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Jan 22, 2012 - 02:07am PT

Did I accidentally hit the wrong button?

Kinobi

climber

Jan 22, 2012 - 02:13am PT

I have seen a lot of topics, some interesting one.

Somebody mentioned Huber on Cima Grande: I have no clue if he soloed it "on sight", but I would be surprised. He probably soloed it "after" he tried the route. I don't remember well, but there are compression bolts placed by first climbers, and 4 bolts added by people who freed the first time the route, and he was Kurt Albert. So, if the guys on Torre were cleaning the bolts "on sight" and going up without clipping them, it would have been definitely "better".

Maestri showed no respect of Torre and climbing community. End of discussion.
In his previous attempt on Torre (an I not referring to '59) he went significantly up by very fairs means with very few protections.
He went back with a compressor and drilled a bunch of bolts. He got what technology offered him at that time. I am not that surprised in what he did at that time, with the "enviromental" knowledge of that time. Findings of massive dumpings on glaciers everywhere of trash, are common everywhere for example...But using technology, the best available, is "common" in mountains. I remember Alex Lowe, Jared Ogden, and Mark Synnott on Trango's using electric drill to place bolts-in at belays for example. So, I am sure, if Maestri had an electric drill, he would have used it instead of bringing up a piece of metal which was a huge task itself.

Finally, may be repeating it once more: I feel two kids have no rights to decide for a climbing community in a foreign land. And everybody should condemn them, for doing that. They probably should be sent to restore what they did (unpaid).

Best,
E

fsck

climber

Jan 22, 2012 - 02:27am PT

goddamn kids these days
they don't ask for permission
they just grab the keys

they've been out all night
crawling up cracks to the top
picking up garbage

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Jan 22, 2012 - 02:39am PT

Hey, I'm just curious...

Were those bolts likely to still be safe? They don't look very stout, must have come out quite easily, and were getting on in years. They actually are just drilled pitons. Does anyone know the effective lifespan of such hardware in that environment, with all that extremo freeze/thaw? Furthermore, is there an organization equivalent to the ASCA down there, that replaces bad bolts on historic routes? How would the community have reacted to the Compressor Route eventually being retrofitted with modern bolts?

New Age II

climber

Jan 22, 2012 - 02:45am PT

You will get to replace the bolts with new material next year .....

Kinobi

climber

Jan 22, 2012 - 02:47am PT

Snorky: they are called "compression bolts" but we call them "impression bolts" in Dolomiti
Which means, yes, they are drilled rounded metal roads that, after +40 years "impress you" every time you clip them or you pull'em.

They are as safe as a 2.5 cm drilled in a hole and exposed to thousands of "frost and defrost" cycles.
Ciao,
E

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Jan 22, 2012 - 03:00am PT

You will get to replace the bolts with new material next year .....

[Ed] I removed ebony peg idea so nobody steals it.

Might as well do permadraws. Just to lighten the load. Speed things up. Belay seats would be nice too, especially if they heat up and vibrate. Also need to install wifi up there. People need to check scores.

Thanks for the info Kinobi.

New Age II

climber

Jan 22, 2012 - 03:05am PT

No. .... Replace only the bolts on the slope of the Maestri ...... that's all.
Rather than clean up the base of the Colle della Pazienza ...... last year was full of abandoned fixed ropes! Those ropes were not Maestri of ......

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Jan 22, 2012 - 03:25am PT

can't argue with that! ciao

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 22, 2012 - 03:35am PT

He went back with a compressor and drilled a bunch of bolts. He got what technology offered him at that time. I am not that surprised in what he did at that time, with the "enviromental" knowledge of that time.

The area was designated a park in 1959 and a UNESCO site in 1970 - the same year as the first Earth Day. The "environmental knowledge" was public, open and there for anyone to adopt. The fact his climbs coincided with these dates is no small irony. How old are you? You don't seem to have a very good grip on the times.

Clint Cummins

Trad climber

SF Bay area, CA

Jan 22, 2012 - 04:17am PT

Not enough photos!

Bolts - The 90m Traverse

Maestri 10 bolt "station" (at start of traverse), from below
(A1 crack on Salvaterra var. visible above, see more of that below)
(2 of these look like non-Maestri bolts)
http://colinhaley.blogspot.com/2011_02_01_archive.html

Start of The 90m Traverse
http://www.brasovia.com/events/patagonia/index.html

Continuation of The 90m Traverse (ice on the tat version)
http://www.brasovia.com/events/patagonia/index.html

traffic on the 90m traverse
http://mcsa.org.za/cpg/displayimage.php?album=24&pos=7

Non-Bolted

The Ice Chimney
http://www.brasovia.com/events/patagonia/index.html

More Bolts

It was Monika Kambic and partner Tanja Grmovsek’s second attempt;
just above the point of this photo, Kambic was hit by falling ice and suffered three broken ribs.
The pair persevered for the first all-female ascent of the peak. [Photo] Andrej Grmovsek
http://www.alpinist.com/doc/ALP11/climbing-note-grmovsek

Headwall

Looking down the headwall
http://mcsa.org.za/cpg/displayimage.php?album=24&pos=6

Looking up towards Compressor.
http://www.brasovia.com/events/patagonia/index.html

Looking down from the Compressor.
http://www.bmg.org.uk/index.php/eng/News/Cerro-Torre-peak-of-controversy

Rapping from the Compressor
http://kellycordes.wordpress.com/2010/06/25/cerro-torre-david-lama-and-red-bullshit/

Salvaterra variation (avoids 90m Traverse)

p1 (A1 crack), with bolt traverse visible to right
http://colinhaley.blogspot.com/2011_02_01_archive.html
(In 11/1971 - 2/72 there was a 10 ton ice block here, which made the Dickinson party take the bolt traverse,
and abandon plans to return to the 1968 Crew line).
http://c498469.r69.cf2.rackcdn.com/1973/dickin_torre1973_328-329.pdf
The ice mushroom was there again in 2007 for Wharton and Smith, and they found it could be bypassed on the left
(which is also the path David Lama took for his free ascent in 2012).

Zack Smith leading past one of the 8 bolts on the Salvaterra var.
http://colinhaley.blogspot.com/2011_02_01_archive.html

Rolo rapping down the Salvaterra var.
http://colinhaley.blogspot.com/2011_02_01_archive.html

Overview of route variations

http://pataclimb.com/climbingareas/chalten/torregroup/torre/SEridge.html

[Edit:]
Yes, Bruce, in different years the ice varies in location and risk:

June 1970 (winter) - Maestri's initial attempt on the climb.
"The bolt traverse was climbed in the winter when a big snow mushroom blocked passage on the ridge itself." http://www.pataclimb.com/climbingareas/chalten/torregroup/torre/SEridge.html

1971/72 Dickinson - could not take 1968 Crew line, due to a 10 ton ice block in the way,
so they took the 90m bolt traverse instead.
http://c498469.r69.cf2.rackcdn.com/1973/dickin_torre1973_328-329.pdf

1979 Bridwell/Brewer - were nearly wiped out by falling ice blocks low on the route,
but happened to be at a spot where they could duck under an overhang.
Just below the headwall, Bridwell had to excavate 6-12 inches of ice to reach bolts.
http://c498469.r69.cf2.rackcdn.com/1980/375_bridwell_cerrotorre_aaj1980.pdf

2005 in photo above, Kambic was hit by ice blocks coming off the headwall;
broke 3 ribs but she kept going.

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA

Jan 22, 2012 - 04:33am PT

Interesting photos Clint. It's been 41 years since Maestri bolted his line and clearly some of the bolts look very unnecessary. It would be interesting
to know if, in some of the more egregious places, there was ice or some other obstacles blocking what appears to be a more logical line of ascent.

Big Mike

Trad climber

Jan 22, 2012 - 04:46am PT

First of all I would like to thank Coz for not deleting the bolt ladders from the grand. I would never get up the thing otherwise :)

These sentiments have rung true for me..

and,

brave young surgery
removing the vulgar scar
abusive lover

so, no more free rides
from inadequate suitors
or soulless lovers

we are so sorry
you have to try harder now
she's worth it, you know?

I remembered that Sonnie Trotter had chopped a route in Lake Louise a while back, this is what he had to say about it.

The Path is not a sport route that got chopped, it’s a
f*#king trad route that got bolted. I didn’t chop the
bolts so much as I restored the climb.

Besides, some of the bolts were in the wrong place anyway.

Someone once asked me if the Compressor route on Cerro
Torre should get chopped, my honest answer is this – I
don’t know enough about the climb to say one way or
the other. I am far too removed to make any sort of
judgment. How can I begin to think that I have the
voice to answer that question. In regards to the
Path, yes, I think the bolts should be removed, not
because I am happy with a hacksaw, but because the
climb is a safe, obvious, well protected trad climb
and NEVER should have been bolted in the first place.

It bugs me when people want to make climbing safe for
everyone, more accessible to everyone. Well then, why
don’t we bolt the blood out of every great crag and
then pave the road to the base, maybe around the side
of the Lake so we won’t have to walk as far, so
climbers won’t have to carry some cams, so that we
won’t have to get out of our cars to get coffee,
instead we can just sit in a ridiculous parade around
the parking lot, waving our money out the widow.

I did not remove the bolts to make any sort of
statement. I am against the practice of placing
expansion bolts next to cracks or other natural lines
than can otherwise be protected safely and easily. I
am not against bolting, I have put up tons of bolted
routes, and I love sport climbing (that plug was for
the guy who told me to “remember where I come from” as
though hard sport is all I’m allowed to do) but there
is a time and place for power drills. If I upheld a
lesser ethic, I would have chopped the East Face of
Monkey Face, but I didn’t because it is not my route
and I have too much respect for the F.A. to make any
changes. The Path however was abandoned and I had an
opportunity to make a decision for myself on how I
wanted this climb to be approached. If I never told
anyone that I removed bolts, would web surfers on
Gripped be having this discussion at all? The way I
see it, some things in this world need to remain
sacred and I stand behind that. F*#k it – even if
both climbs get retro bolted tomorrow (which I don’t
think will happen, as I know 3-4 people personally who
are all excited to give the route a go) then all I can
say is that I did what I thought was the best thing to
do for that particular climb and life goes on.

The path was put up as a project and abandoned. Could the compressor route not be called abandoned as well since he did not reach the summit, and then tried to erase his mistake on the way down??

More on the path here.

So I don't want Coz to delete my project, but I also disagree with placing so much hardware in the mountains... Hmmmm kinda hypocritical...

Just think, the next compressor route party has a chance to take a cordless and retro bolt it in decent fashion! :) Or summit the new headwall variant!

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 22, 2012 - 08:57am PT

Take another good look at those pictures and tell us honestly that the Bolt Route needs to be preserved.
To our Italian cousins, the disdain of this alpine travesty is not a referendum on nor a condemnation of Italy or Italians. It is a reaction to one man's horrible abuse. Nor is it a condemnation of Maestri's eearlier remarkable climbs. The first ascenionist could have been an American, an Armenian or an Eskimo and it would have made no difference.

tarallo

Trad climber

italy

Jan 22, 2012 - 09:00am PT

Foradaiball hai rotto i coglioni con le tue cazzate.
Translation:foradaiball you have broken the balls With your bullsh#t.go by your self without saying anything and chop the nose the salathe and so on ,so you are happy.

llkk

Trad climber

boulder

Jan 22, 2012 - 01:09pm PT

I dont agree with bunch of you guys

Anyway, this is what I think:
We , at least me, go to the mountains to climb because I love the heights the challenge the sunsets , a bit of fear, a bit of feeling out of human stupidity, this is why I love the quite mountains.
Then, Maestri, was for sure an arrogant old furt, but even though his adventure is respectable for me, since the access to Chalten was hard in those time, no transportation, bridges or sh#t, just human passion or ego was the motor, he took out the challenge of the mountain (what I disagree), because at that time was consider the hardest mountain with K2,
Anyway, Maestris route / attitude sucks
But, why this two young bastards have to go and take out the pitons, who are them more than two good climbers
And good climbers with 5.10 shoes, good meteo forecast, plane access airport is only few hs to base of the wall, so this is technological improvement that makes their way easier!
And on top of that, the local community of Chalten agreed in 2007 to leave the pitons as a cultural thing (we can agree or not) but, the kids are not the guys to take bolts out
Their attitude is arrogant , and sorry to say it but is a classical pushy attitude of competitive northamerican climber.......for me all this brought stupidity to the mountains what I hate
I like Chalten, but the vibe there sucks, rather climb a little peak 5 +- 3 pitches,
and you can think is mediocrity but I dont , because my experience is full and fullfils me , and thats the reason to go out there
the only reason

Just imagine any of us going and chopping Harding bolts because Lynn Hill free the Nose in 92? So, nobody would go there

Well guys, good enough, and have fun talking about all this bullsh#t

Any of us is dying from cancer, so not much to worry!

Bababata

Mountain climber

Utopia

Jan 22, 2012 - 01:21pm PT

@fòradaiball

I am not American. Sorry you feel so hurt over this.

ciao!

WBraun

climber

Jan 22, 2012 - 01:38pm PT

In Clint's photo's .... holy sh!t !!!!

That Maestri guy pulled out all stops on that thing. LOL

That's why if you're gonna do something do it "Big".

Jason & Hayden is just the "Big" karmic reaction for the other "Big"

It's over .... do the next "Big" ......

Kimbo

Sport climber

seattle

Jan 22, 2012 - 01:49pm PT

My point is that in the moment of actual doing, what you or I think about the Compresso route had nothing whatsoever to do with what the boys did up there. I have no doubt that many will try and MAKE it there businenss after the fact, but the fact has already marched past - should we like it or not is irrelevant, and is our issue, not theirs.

Yes.

True that what you nor I nor ANYONE else thought seems to have mattered very little to the "boys".

And there lies the problem:

The "boys" took it upon themselves to remove bolts from a climb that seemingly they didn't even do, and was immensely enjoyed by many others.

It seems that you pay homage to a world where "the able" make the rules, to hell with the others, let the "heroes" follow their passions! (5.11 A2?!?)

I used to myself, but I suppose my youthful passions have been tempered by a more consensual democratic approach to life and problem-solving
("passions" seem to be terrible decision-makers).

MarkWestman

Trad climber

Talkeetna, Alaska

Jan 22, 2012 - 02:07pm PT

Is somebody going to step up and finish the job, I wonder? Should be all or nothing regardless of the motive for it, but particularly if it was to clean up the mountain.

The mob and cop scene in Chalten won't make that a desirable task. After all the acrimony over this eyesore, it would be most lamentable if that remaining mess stayed up there but now serving no function. At least the old mess got put to use for climbing.

Hummerchine

Trad climber

East Wenatchee, WA

Jan 22, 2012 - 02:10pm PT

It is hard to imagine what Maestri was thinking when he put 10 bolts in that station (Clint's first photo posted)! He must have been having fun playing with his new compressor...

What bugs me the most about it is that he had the gall to leave the damn compressor up there! Like anybody would think that was cool. What a choade.

I agree with just about everything that has been posted, both pro and con! But I come up on the side that says they should have left the bolts alone. Chopping them really does reek of arrogance. Heck, I think the routes looks fun! I mean, if Maestri wanted to put in all that work to put in a bolted route that has obviously become popular...then let it be!

Also hard to imagine that those holes won't get filled back up anyway...

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Jan 22, 2012 - 02:50pm PT

I've read every damn post on this thread, and I'm still not certain how I really feel about the whole chopping thing! Certainly everyone please keep posting photos so we can see more about what we're ranting about. I would also like to hear more detail from guys who have actually climbed the route, or at least rappelled it.

Also, we really need all of the Italian guys' posts translated into English, please.

is it still viable to rappel the Compressor Route?

which bits got chopped, and which remain?

how do the local climbers feel about this now? We are mostly only reading the comments from wankers like me, who have never even been to the place!

has there been any further action by the police?

I think my biggest concern is that the out-of-town lads took it upon themselves to do something that was considered and then specifically rejected after considering the consensus of locals. [It was described many pages above a 75% agreement the bolts should stay, and the specifics are below, thanks to Ezy] So why these guys? And why now? What gave them the right over everyone else? And why were these bolts knott removed years ago?

accordingly, what were the reasons given by the locals that the Compressor Route should not be chopped? Convenience to reach the summit or descend from it? Historical significance? While the results of the vote are reproduced below, the reasons were not given, and they would certainly be interesting to hear.

Request: can someone please post up various editorial comments from back in the day, specifically Ken Wilson's, and also Reinhold Messner's if you can find them, please.

Question: could or should some of the pulled bolts be replaced? Could the holes be reused?

For instance, should "stupid" bolts next to useable cracks remain chopped, but should "legit" bolts that cross blank sections of rock to link climbable features be replaced?

Regardless, the holes should be patched with epoxy to render them as invisible as possible. There is not excuse for not doing this, as it is neither difficult nor time consuming.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 22, 2012 - 03:43pm PT

Jason Kruk & Hayden Kennedy may be young but they are not boys.
Those cats are REAL MEN!
And if the route they established is the logical line to the summit of Cerro Torre then many, many future aspiring alpinists have not been robbed of a grand opportunity. It isn't as if they established a route that only they could do. And if some future uberbad uberrad climber sends the headwall in good style wouldn't that be a good thing.
Conversely you could have a hoard of David Lamas grid bolting the life and spirit out of the mountains and leaving a trashy legacy. I don't think that would be better.

Now if you folks who are so distraught about the cleaning down of the Bolt Route well then I have a list of American routes that could benefit from some proper clean up.
Peace Brothers.

ALPINEMAN

Trad climber

bogota

Jan 22, 2012 - 03:50pm PT

And if the route they established is the logical line to the summit of Cerro Torre

logical il cazzo!

logical is not another bolted line

I repeat: 5 bolts is the same concept of 300 bolts

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 22, 2012 - 03:54pm PT

5 bolts as opposed to 450.
Seems logical enough to me.
why not just hang a giant extension ladder up the headwall?
Clipping endless A0 bolts is not climbing it is masturbating.

Speaking of ladders, I wish they would pull that fukin Chinese ladder off of Everest.

ALPINEMAN

Trad climber

bogota

Jan 22, 2012 - 04:03pm PT

5 bolts as opposed to 450.
Seems logical enough to me.

NO, same idea, compressor everytime with you (lighter than Maestri)

this is "by fair means"?

Kinobi

climber

Jan 22, 2012 - 04:05pm PT

@ Philo:
I think you could easily be the son of Maestri and the brother of these kids.

Bottom line: who are these guys to decide what to do?
It does not matter if chopping was good or bad. Who are they to decide?
Ciao,
E

Kinobi

climber

Jan 22, 2012 - 04:22pm PT

With reference to:

"The area was designated a park in 1959 and a UNESCO site in 1970 - the same year as the first Earth Day. The "environmental knowledge" was public, open and there for anyone to adopt. The fact his climbs coincided with these dates is no small irony. How old are you? You don't seem to have a very good grip on the times. "

I am 42.
And I am on of the people cleaning in december 1994, the lower part of Pilastro Goretta (Aka Casarotto Route) on Fitz Roy. A few hundreds meters of old rope and a bunch of woden pitons (and some I still have here).
E

ezy

Mountain climber

Italy

Jan 22, 2012 - 04:24pm PT

bravo Kinobi!!!

Patagonian Democracy: On Lovers' Day (Mountain Lovers').
by Vicente Labate

On 14th February this year (2007), after a slide show by the Pou brothers, an assembly was held at Los Glaciares National Park Visitors' Centre, Lago Viedma Section, better known as El Chaltén, attended by climbers from several corners of the world: Venezuela, Brazil, Germany, Switzerland, The United States, Spain, Mexico, Chile and Argentina, together with both the president and secretary of the local Andean Club and the local Chief Ranger. The main objective of the meeting was to discuss the possible removal of expansion bolts placed by Cesare Maestri on Cerro Torre's south-western arête during his expedition in 1970, known as "The Compressor Route", the most criticized but also most frequently climbed route on the mountain. (I recommend reading the rather extensive story)

The idea of the meeting had been suggested by Ranger Carlos Duprez after an Argentinean climber had reported a party by the American team made up by Josh Wharton and Zach Martin, who had arrived at the park with the intention to climb the above mentioned arête without resorting to the bolts and if they accomplished their attempt they would descend by The Compressor Route with the idea of "cleaning" it by means of a device that they called "especial for the job"

At the end of the slide show people started to leave as it seemed that many didn't know what was going to happen. I approached Duprez and enquired about the meeting. I had hoped one of them would take up the role of moderator, but Carlos replied he was not going to do anything, they had only suggested the meeting and offered the premises for it to be held, and as they didn't understand much about the core of the affair they would comply with any decisions taken in the assembly. Despite the fact that it's practically impossible for a ranger to reach the "head wall" (hope to God they never will, for the sake of our independence!) we must bear in mind that the mountain stands within a national park created to protect the local biodiversity and the natural and CULTURAL Argentinean heritage.

Arguments in favour and against the removal of the bolts were put forward followed by voting for or against the expressed arguments keeping in sight the most relevant issues: the international climbing community as the main participants in the controversy, the National Park, the local community, Cerro Torre as a tourist goal and the mountain itself (with all the subjective mysticism of those aspiring to step on its summit, as long as "stepping" does not mean denigrating)

The National Park rangers abstained from voting, the local population had no idea of what a bolt was and therefore were not represented, and as us, the "Mohameds", go to the mountain, She was not present either. Only climbers had a vote.

If we take the assembly participants as the sample of a particular universe, they can be considered representative, since the meeting took place in the high season when the flow of international climbers is at its peak, and as the weather wasn't the ideal the whole climbing world spectrum was present.

During the meeting we attempted at the exposition of ideas without passing judgment, accepting and tolerating differing views, all aiming at a democratic agreement by means of a general vote. Everybody's say was precious, as it had been when signatures had been gathered for the Fitz Roy north pillar wouldn't be purchased by an economic group or when National Parks had been persuaded not to charge a climbing fee.?

It's worth mentioning the participation of some renowned climbers, such as Alex Huber or Iker Pou, making it clear that being well-known does not make their vote more significant, just famous. It's not necessary to be an elite
climber to understand the impact the bolts have had on the mountain and the climbing.

I should also mention that some Argentinean and Latin American climbers, beyond interpersonal relations, did not agree with granting foreigners the right to vote, mainly to those climbers from Europe, North America, Germany among others. However, as the history of Patagonian alpinism is written by everybody (by means of routes, attempts, with shelters, assemblies, etc) we did not repeat Maestri's mistake and allowed everybody's vote to lead us to an
answer.

Give Torre Its Wild Side Again
The mountain is not wild any more (needless to say we are not referring here to its whimsical weather changes), it stopped being wild the day the first occidental human gave it a name, a value, and particularly when the town of El Chaltén was founded in 1985. The mountain has not stopped being wild because of the number of bolts it has, but because there's a town which fully caters for all needs just a few walking hours away, with two supermarkets, satellite internet connection and a fully paved road straight to " The Patagonian Vegas", El Calafate (airport and casino included).

Not only the surrounded facilities and services have deprived it of its wildness, but what kind of doubt may there remain as to the easy accessibility these peaks have since a relatively accurate weather forecast can be obtained by phone or the Web at any moment?

Common Sense
Different interests coexist in this world, more often than not these interests are contradictory, and within that diversity we can find cultures, languages, food, buildings, etc. To accept this diversity is to accept ourselves / to accept our human nature.

Therefore, the search for Common Sense becomes imperative, especially in order not to tread on anybody else's rights. We are fully aware that our globalized society is still far from reaching this goal, but, why can't we, climbers, at least give it a try, since we make up a very reduced universe?

Ideas were put forward in an openly. The talk was carried out in Spanish but translators were available whenever necessary. We were all granted time and respect for our views to be expressed clearly and at ease. When every soul had their say, hands were raised to vote.

The Result
Hands were counted on the spot. Nobody said a word after the second group voted. From about 40 people, approximately 30 voted for the bolts to remain on the mountain.

Conclusion
Despite the fact we expressed our views, the issue is not over, lets be ready for growth an evolution.

In my opinion, this summer gave us the opportunity to say:

No to bolt ladders on any mountain as from now.

Yes to the search for common solutions.

No to any kind of dominance, in ideas or actions.

Yes to accepting history as part of our culture.

Vincente Labate

http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?l=2&keyid=35788

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Jan 22, 2012 - 04:26pm PT

After looking at the Pataclimb.com site, it looks to me like the "Fair Means" ascent has been a work in progress for some time, with successive teams working out clean variations to the SE ridge.

From what I can gather, it looks like Hayden and Kruk pulled off a complete "fair means" ascent, as the definition has evolved among a small number of actual players in the last couple decades.

I'm still a bit perplexed by the fact that the current fair-means definition seems to exclude bolt ladders but include the bolted belay stations (belays are part of climbing, too). The mountain nor the bolts know which ones fit into which category--just another hair splitting definition defined by infallible humans.

At first, chopping bolts on rappel seemed vindictive to me, but upon further reflection ("speculation", as Werner would remind me), at best, methinks the chopping of this classic route was a bit premature due to the fact that the bolted belays have still not been eliminated (my opinion--but then again, I would never consider chopping anyone else's creations, I'd just go somewhere else--the world is a big place). But in the end, the Compressor Route had it coming, just as John Long eloquently writes, the march was already in progress, we're all just bystanders watching the progression go by.

If anyone's that concerned, go down there and give it a go. Perhaps you might find that you too can climb it by the current "fair means" variants to the original route. There's probably a tiny tiny minority of folks whose level of ability would have enabled them to climb it with the compressor bolts, but not via the fair-means variations.

Primarily, the ante has likely been upped by the fact that the weather window needs to be that much more favourable (on the headwall pitches) to climb 5.11 rather than A1.

But again, it will be good to hear direct from the participants in this current saga of Cerro Torre.

ALPINEMAN

Trad climber

bogota

Jan 22, 2012 - 04:29pm PT

in the 2020, if other party don't use the 5 bolts variation... will be "by fair means" with the addiction "clean"?

Kimbo

Sport climber

seattle

Jan 22, 2012 - 04:44pm PT

@ EZY: thanks for posting that.

@ all who speak favorably of the hayden/kruk action: what is your thinking about the posted article?

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 22, 2012 - 04:46pm PT

@ Philo:
I think you could easily be the son of Maestri and the brother of these kids.

Nope I am just a humble Pollock way past his prime and old enough to be their proud father.

I am honestly sorry that this action has both stirred a controversial pot and marred what is otherwise quite a fantastic ascent by two young, talented and driven alpinists.
The post about the meeting in Chaltan does carry significant weight for your argument that they shouldn't have done the chopping without the approval of consensus.
So what do you feel should be done in the spirit of restorative justice?

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 22, 2012 - 04:51pm PT

Thanks Ezy!

Patagonian Democracy.
[...]
From about 40 people, approximately 30 voted for the bolts to remain on the mountain.

That's incredible!
Climbers decide democratically and two scherifs act ignoring people's opinion!!!

ALPINEMAN

Trad climber

bogota

Jan 22, 2012 - 04:53pm PT

american style

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Jan 22, 2012 - 05:02pm PT

Come on, Alpineman - this wasn't something the US government did, so quit equating the actions of a couple guys with politics. I "get" that you're annoyed, but what you say is irrelevant and inflammatory.

Besides, one of the guys is a Canadian.

[Of course, no Canadian would ever do anything that might offend anyone. We would always ask permission first. And if we do get mad, about the worst we'll do is call you names. Please excuse me if the above post offended anyone]

mikeyschaefer

climber

Yosemite

Jan 22, 2012 - 05:06pm PT

Did you guys ever consider that all those cracks surrounding the bolts were full of ice at the time so he was forced to drill?

You always have a choice to drill a bolt. The only thing icy cracks have "forced" me to do in Patagonia was go down.

ALPINEMAN

Trad climber

bogota

Jan 22, 2012 - 05:21pm PT

mikey, but for the new bolt in (ex) compressor route what do you think?

you approved?

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 22, 2012 - 05:28pm PT

Obviously, the majority I feel are on the side of leave them in, but the minority took it on themselves to impress their will on all of us.

You obviously somehow think thirty people better represent the world than two people. I'd say nothing whatsoever is obvious about a 'majority' on the topic.

Bababata

Mountain climber

Utopia

Jan 22, 2012 - 05:38pm PT

Indeed, how is it that forty random foreigners residing in El Chalten suddenly represent all of us? Locals were not included because they don't know what a bolt is, neither were park rangers, let alone for ordinary climbers across the world... Shouldn't a democratic vote include everyone? Or do those select 40 represent only the people that want to climb Cerro Torre? Or the people that "think" they can climb Cerro Torre?

I don't see the "democratic" aspects of that vote - please enlighten me.

MH2

climber

Jan 22, 2012 - 05:40pm PT

I had to translate one of the english-speaker's posts : mauerhakenstreit

Some interesting stuff, there:

"One thing only do I know: that I stand just about alone in my opinions, and whenever I expressed something of them, the answer was always: 'Quite an ideal point of view, but a crazy notion.' "

quote from Paul Preuss

Are you going to poll a bunch of climbers/Argentinians/Argentinian climbers to decide what to do next?

Is there anyone who might want to have a look at what klk referenced?

http://www128.pair.com/r3d4k7/MauerhakenstreitCompleteIllustrated.pdf

slobmonster

Trad climber

OAK (nee NH)

Jan 22, 2012 - 05:46pm PT

I don't have a dog in this fight, but it stirs some memories from the sludge.

If anyone is over-caffeinated and would like to explore a similar subject, consider for a moment a crappy overcrowded little 5.6 in New Hampshire: Thin Air.

http://www.neclimbs.com/SMF_2/index.php?topic=419.0

with the major proviso that there was an actual voted-upon, argued, and meetings-attended consensus reached regarding subject at hand... the same consensus that was ignored by youth(s).

The Larry

climber

Moab, UT

Jan 22, 2012 - 05:50pm PT

Just ask the Godfather.

The bird is the word.

'nuff said.

Clint Cummins

Trad climber

SF Bay area, CA

Jan 22, 2012 - 05:53pm PT

> @ all who speak favorably of the hayden/kruk action: what is your thinking about the posted article?

1. It was interesting and worth reading.
2. I represented the opinions of 40 climbers who were active that season and in town.
3. At the time of the vote, the final difficulty of the "Fair Means" version was not known.
4. I wish the vote had gone the other way. :-)
5. Climbers tend to vote for the status quo, at least in terms of keeping things that have been around for awhile.
6. Sometimes (as climbers or otherwise) we choose to do things that are opposed by the majority, or even illegal.
Sometimes these decisions are good ones and even change opinions (and laws).
7. Whether or not the bolts will stay gone, more will be removed, or some will be restored is not really a direct result of the vote.
What will matter is how strongly climbers feel about it, and how willing they are to do something up there.

Kimbo

Sport climber

seattle

Jan 22, 2012 - 06:04pm PT

Especially when their climb was very moderate in difficulty nothing the average third year climber couldn't pull off.

i'd opine that the difficulty of the new climbing has no bearing on the issue....

Gene

climber

Jan 22, 2012 - 06:04pm PT

marty(r)

climber

beneath the valley of ultravegans

Jan 22, 2012 - 06:06pm PT

A few more images for context. From Argentina's Vertical magazine.

And one of my own.

I get that we're not comparing apples and oranges here, but with all the concern that has been aired here in sunny California about quarter inch time bombs, doesn't the compressor itself represent a kind of icy sword of Damocles for someone down below? Should it remain? Were there ever efforts to remove it but not the bolts? Just wondering.

By the way, mikeylikesrocks has some pretty great images of the Torre and surrounding environs.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jan 22, 2012 - 06:11pm PT

Still waiting for hard - first hand, that is - facts as to what Jason and Hayden actually did. How many Maestri bolts were there? How many did they remove, and where? How many are left? (What about Bridwell's rivets at the top?) How many bolts or rivets are there in total on their route, what is its difficulty, and is there still a fixed rappel route of some sort? What conditions were the removed bolts in? Did anything get done with the compressor? Did they do anything to fill the old holes, or?

It seems likely that they removed a fair number of bolts, but beyond that we really don't know yet.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 22, 2012 - 06:19pm PT

Especially when their climb was very moderate in difficulty nothing the average third year climber couldn't pull off.

Coz, I know you are upset but that statement is both outrageous and condescending.
If it were true the world would be filled with hero shots on the summit of Cerro Torre.
But some pretty hard crag rats have been bouted up there while average 3rd years are still looking for the colored tape.

bergbryce

Mountain climber

South Lake Tahoe, CA

Jan 22, 2012 - 06:20pm PT

I can remember when I was new to climbing and first reading about the Compressor Route and the history behind it. It sounded like a disaster then and based upon some of the pictures I've seen in this thread, I'm not that unhappy that it's gone. Whether it was these two climbers position to do what they did (and remember we still don't know exactly what's been done) is another matter and one that's going to be discussed for a very long time.

Time seems to have a way of over-riding the sting of poor decisions. Kind of like a statue of limitations of some sort. There seems to be a point where nostalgia overrules common sense and people begin to think things like their Ford Pinto was actually a decent car and not an engineering death trap.

WBraun

climber

Jan 22, 2012 - 06:22pm PT

Anders the typical armchair quarterback.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jan 22, 2012 - 06:23pm PT

Sorry, Werner - I'm acting just like a SAR person, trying to get more information. I wouldn't want to mentally speculate or anything. Hee hee.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 22, 2012 - 06:57pm PT

First the route is being reported by Rolo as 5.11+ A2 not 5.10.
Secondly we are talking about climbing in Patagonia not JT or the Valley or RMNP or even the Big Ditch.

I agree that at home crags in the lower 48 states 5.10 A2 isn't all that hard but on Cerro Torre it is.
If that grade was so easy wouldn't Steve Schnieder have been running laps on the 5.10 A1 Bolt Route already.

ionlyski

Trad climber

Kalispell, Montana

Jan 22, 2012 - 07:15pm PT

I respect Michael Kennedy too much to slam Hayden like I normally would, I have to admit.

Coz-after what you've said about Hayden you're lucky if he doesn't wrap his hand around your skinny little neck and squeeze. POP!

Arne

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 22, 2012 - 08:22pm PT

If a small team made an alpine-style ascent of the north face of Jannu, then chopped all the bolts and fixed ropes left up there by the Russian big-wall team on the FA of the Odintsov Direct route, I wonder if there would be as much outrage and condemnation as there has been here. I suspect the answer is no.

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Jan 22, 2012 - 08:23pm PT

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Jan 22, 2012 - 08:35pm PT

dunno 'bout that, BlackSpider. I think that would be internationally considered as quite a despicable act and with no justification.

What's happened on Cerro Torre recently is the cumulation of a long process of dialog. It's not just a case of just random chopping of someone else's route due to style differences.

Talked to Paul Pritchard the other day. His eyes lit up, and he said, "I was planning to do that (chop the bolts) on Cerro Torre!" But he also inferred that the team that would be entitled to do the chopping should have had climbed the SE ridge without any of Maestri's bolts, and he was also surprised to hear that the belay bolts weren't considered in the "fair-means" equation.

If we're talking nationalism, I reckon a Brit would have had a greater claim to the deed, since it was a British team that really got usurped on Cerro Torre back in the early 70's (though Paul didn't see it as a nationalism kind of thing).

Personally, I would have preferred it left alone as the classic nose-in-a-day of Patagonia!
(But that's not a comment on what was done, that's just an opinion informed by a dream that someday I might get down there again).

Side story: I recall being incensed at Dan McDivett when he "cleaned" up dozens of fixed pitons on the Nose back in 1984 (we were all pretty poor in those days, I figured he was just trying to make a few bucks selling used pins in the parking lot). At the time, I was gunning for the first link up of Nose and Half Dome, and it really pissed me off--Tucker had to hold me back. But in the end, the "day" potential of the Nose wasn't affected, and I was definitely overreacting, though it did affect my psyche for the link-up. I suspect something similar is going on now with some folks.

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 22, 2012 - 08:51pm PT

@Deuce: I guess I just see fixed gear (be it ropes, bolts, or whatever) as being closer to booty/crag swag or even just pure garbage than a lot of people do. If something was placed in a crack and abandoned, most people consider it fair game to pull out if you've got the inclination to do so. I'm not sure why a drilled hole should be any different.

Or what if, instead of pounding in pins, Maestri had drilled his way up and placed trenched batheads? Still off-limits for cleaning and/or replacing?

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Jan 22, 2012 - 08:59pm PT

sure, ropes and junk are fair game, but erasing routes is of course a different matter.

I posted a note about those bolts on a different thread, but I'm amazed at how those Cassin bolts were in such good shape after all these years. Maestri's work, though a botch job in terms of standards, is actually quite a work of art in terms of using the construction technology of the day. I don't really see the Compressor Route's style as much different to the style of those who bring motorised equipment to the mountains today--but perhaps that's where I would personally draw the line--otherwise you might as well extend the paradigm and just helicopter to the summit (or perhaps just past the blank pitches) and call it good. Thinking about it, what if we all had personal jet packs (the Apple iJetPack™)--wonder how that would affect the game we call climbing?

David Wilson

climber

Jan 22, 2012 - 09:05pm PT

i agree john, the maestri bolts are somewhat of an art project; an odd period piece. pending other information, i think they should have been left in place...

mucci

Trad climber

The pitch of Bagalaar above you

Jan 22, 2012 - 09:11pm PT

Power drills are damn near standard on New VI VII routes these dayz...

So we have gone FULL CIRCLE.

If that makes any sense.

WTF? Those in the know are keeping it to themselves. NO NEW INFO OR CONFIRMATION OF "THE FACTS" stated above.

Bababata

Mountain climber

Utopia

Jan 22, 2012 - 09:22pm PT

I find some of the comments above quite hypocritical, especially considering these same people's comments on the Wings of Steel fiasco.

BTW, if some foreigner had come to the valley in 1970 and had put up a bolt ladder up the big stone, I'd imagine the route would not have survived more than a month... Robins started chopping a Harding route until he realized it couldn't have been put up in better style at the time. This is not the case with the Compressor route.

It's also admirable that people waited until a legit variation was accomplished before chopping the route. I think what transpired on CT is completely in line with established climbing ethics around the globe.

Seems like some people are upset for rather selfish reasons..

David Wilson

climber

Jan 22, 2012 - 09:39pm PT

hmmmm....bolts do persist, witness tangerine trip on EC. as i recall there are at least two full pitches of rivets....and nobody has chopped them so far

spsmc

Mountain climber

Swall Meadows,CA

Jan 22, 2012 - 11:34pm PT

Quite the little debate and even before all of the facts are in. Seems like there is a division between those who have been on the route and those who have not and those who have been on it might favor having left it as it was.Yes, I have been there, but not to the top but I have to go with Coz, SS and Greg. Always wanted to go back.
In an article Rolo stated that you need a rack no larger than that for Nutcracker. True maybe, but the climbs are a galaxy apart. If you are not scared up there and praying for the weather to hold then you are not going to live much longer. The route has quality free climbing and ice as well. I cannot comprehend how it was in 1970. Maestri's first attempt was in the winter and he got beaten down and left, returning in summer. He put his time in for sure and I still hope against hope that his ascent with Egger might one day prove to be true.
Let's be clear, it seems that a free ascent is not being claimed, only an free/aid ascent using a small number of the original bolts but original bolts were used for the ascent and descent. Yes, Maestri went wild and put bolts in all over. But then pre-cleanup Zodiac had up to 15 at the Mark of Zorro belay and you might ask how they all got there. Galen Rowell once told me that Maestri had got the compressor and other equipment from European manufacturer Hilti who were interested in providing equipment for the projected Alaska pipeline. Never seen that corroborated anywhere so take it as you wish. But if true what is a sponsored climber going to do but use the stuff - nothing changes. Easy to criticize Maestri, but if you have been there you have to ask yourself about the work it took to get that thing up on the peak.
The non-controversial classy complete climb would be to climb it totally on their own gear and create their own anchors on the way down. Their ascent proves something and these guys did an outstanding job of that - no debate. But on the way down using the same bolts you profess to detest is hypocritical.
How would the route have been if only extraneous bolts were removed and the route cleaned up as has happened to many Yosemite routes?
How many people really comprehend the full history of this climb from the British attempts, through Bill Denz's little appreciated attempted solo in 1980 to 80m of the top and Pedrini's solo?
The history remains, but the route they did seems to be no more. It took over 40 years and the skills of modern climbers for a route bypassing most of the bolts to be found; but only a few hours to remove a lot of it.

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Jan 23, 2012 - 12:43am PT

LARGO SAID: My point is that in the moment of actual doing, what you or I think about the Compresso route had nothing whatsoever to do with what the boys did up there. I have no doubt that many will try and MAKE it there businenss after the fact, but the fact has already marched past - should we like it or not is irrelevant, and is our issue, not theirs.

Yes.

True that what you nor I nor ANYONE else thought seems to have mattered very little to the "boys".

And there lies the problem:

The "boys" took it upon themselves to remove bolts from a climb that seemingly they didn't even do, and was immensely enjoyed by many others.

It seems that you pay homage to a world where "the able" make the rules, to hell with the others, let the "heroes" follow their passions! (5.11 A2?!?)

Pay homage? Where did you get that? I repeatedly have said, "for better or for worse," that right or wrong was not my issue here.

My point is that "they took it upon themselves," to use your phrase. This is the "direct action" I spoke about and to which the vanguard had always practiced." All the yammering and judgments after the fact are perhaps important in a general, policy-defining kind of way, but the vangard is not expected to define their intentions through other's opinions, which are none of their business. That's just the way they roll, and we're powerless over that.

Another thing is that the vaugard, if authentic, always pushes the bar up - not sideways or down. Talk about chopping Nose being remotely the same as what happened on the Cerro T. is strictly absurd. Nowhere on the Nose was there anything remotely like the profligate show of bolts as seen on those pics, where a dozen or more festoon from the rock right next to cracks. If this was seen on El Cap today it would uniformly be written off as the work or hacks or madmen.

I think a lot of the guff we see here is sour grapes that leading edge folks are making policy decisions for all mankind. Well, they did. And will continue to do so. It's an evolutionary thing.

That said, I don't condone removing the bolts on the Torre, but I wonder if a lot of people are bent because without the machine-gun-bolted nature of the compressor route, the majority of us would never have a shot as such a mountain.

JL

shipoopoi

Big Wall climber

oakland

Jan 23, 2012 - 12:48am PT

darn those forty niners!

well, i lot of great thought on this issue, really amazing how every issue has been presented by both sides and by so many people. although i remain bummed that the route has been choppy chop chopped, i don't slag anybody for thinking the other way. it is a grandiose peak, one of the world's greatest treasures, and if people feel the mountain is better without these bolts, i really don't even want to change their/your opinion. i understand that everybody here seems to appreciate how special this peak is, and that people are talking from the heart. i'm not going to lose any friends over this, at least not on my part, it's way not worth it.

at the same time, i would again like to explain why i might have been just a bit tweaked on my first post or two here. i have been down to try the compressor route on four separate expeditions, costing me thousands, if not tens of thousands of dollars, and 8 or 9 months of my life(i could have been in thailand with my wife). injuries, sickness, bad weather, and bad partners all have contributed to my failures. the last time on the peak, just below the banana cracks, my partner refused to continue because he was tired, even though i was leading every pitch in the dark. the weather was perfect. total heartbreak as i watched a german team pass us on our retreat and cruise to the summit. these times and attempts and failures on the compressor route are among my greatest memories, even though i never even got to the mythical bolt ladders of maestri, i longed to see them for myself. so, all of a sudden, bam...i am robbed of my chance to have another go on the compressor.

so, it should be understandable that i might be upset enough to squeeze my panties into a g-string. i not even saying here that i had a right to climb the compressor route, just that i have the right to be upset about it being chopped because of all i've been through on this climb.

people have argued i can always go do another climb on the torre, but i don't want that choice made for me. one thing i have found out is that it is not cool to tell other people what to climb, so i don't need anybody telling me to go do the ferrari route(west face). i wanted to do the compressor route. i've been shut down, just like the fortyniners today. ciao amigos, steve schneider

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Jan 23, 2012 - 02:01am PT

More pondering and speculation from the peanut gallery:

To all the future "fair-means" chopping teams: perhaps y'all could leave the 90 meter traverse bolts as a historical variation. Unlike the headwall, those bolts wouldn't be in the way, as the original British line and its fair means continuation completely bypasses them. Other than that, carry on with your ethical cleanup if you so wish.

Maestri knew it was possible to go directly up the ridge. But he inexplicably chose to drill across a blank wall, and many people have speculated as to why. I reckon the weather had kicked in, and that he went that way to stay out of the wind, as the ridge is much more exposed. Perhaps that variant can remain as both as a historical novelty, and as a way some parties might attempt to gain just a little more ground if they get up to pitch 10 and the wind really starts kicking in; if the typical Patagonia wind doesn't abate, they're not going to have much luck on the upper part of the route anyway (with or without bolts).

Of course, if luck prevailed, then all successful parties would have to 'fess up as to which variant they took (with of course fewer kudos to the 90m traversers).

Other than the 90m traverse pitches and the headwall, most of the other supposed 4 gallzillion bolts on the route have already long been superseded by modern gear and free climbing abilities.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 23, 2012 - 02:11am PT

For whom questions the authorithy of the decision taken in El Chanten in 2007
http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?l=2&keyid=35788
Nevertheless, that meeting and decision shows how far from unanimity is the choice of chopping the Compressor bolts, and it enphasize further how arbitrary and arrogant was the action of Kennedy and Kruk action.

KKK = Kennedy-Kruk-Kontroversy ... too funny! :-)))

Ceedy

climber

Cali.

Jan 23, 2012 - 02:41am PT

Hey Cedar Wright here. This is obviously a HUGE event in the history of climbing, and having just returned for the Outdoor Retailer tradeshow where I rubbed shoulders with the likes of Fred Beckey and Reinhold Messner, I can say that this is the go to conversation piece of the climbing world right now. After a few days of dialogue with a lot of climbing luminaries who descended on Salt Lake, I have formulated my own opinion. Here it is for what it’s worth.

First, Congrats to Jason and Hayden, two genuinely nice and talented climbers for what sounds like a great new style for the compressor route, or perhaps more accurately (Variation?) to the compressor route. Who would have thought that a more natural line would be climbed at the relatively moderate grade of 5.11 A2!!!! I will say that this was only a “fairish means” ascent. True "Fair Means" isn't achieved until here is an ascent where NO BOLTS are clipped including anchor bolts, and it would be a lot cooler if was all free too. The only more exciting ascent I can imagine would be a freesolo, followed by a climactic basejump from the summit... absurd??? perhaps...but I also thought Half Dome would never be free soloed.

My feelings? I have to say I'm a bit saddened that they have chopped the route, largely because I like the guys and feel that this is a very polarizing thing to do. There is no doubt they will be remembered for many years as the "choppers." If I had been in their shoes, I would have enjoyed this more pure ascent and then left the bolts intact for others to clip, or not. I would like to be remembered for my climbs and my character, and not for an incredibly divisive and dare I say zealous, act.

Looking at Climbing ethics as something akin to religious or spiritual beliefs, I think there is nothing worse than a devout Atheist, Christian, Alpinist or what have you, forcing their belief system on others. This is how wars get started, and Jason and Hayden have undoubtedly fired the opening salvo in one of the most legendary bolt wars of all time.

Part of why I love climbing is because it has no rules, just ethics, which are open to our own personal interpretations. For me, a huge part of my Ethics centers around allowing others to climb in a style that makes them happy, and then allowing their first ascents to stand as a tribute to the quality, or lack thereof, of their chosen style. Certainly the Compressor route was put up in poor style, but I think it is quite fascinating historically, much like the nose, which was sieged over god knows how many days.

To use Tuolumne Meadows as an example, under my ethical system, I would not add bolts to the ground up established "Bachar Yerian," nor remove them from the rap bolted route to the left "Shipoopi." Both CLASSIC routes. I personally aspire to go ground placing as few bolts as possible, especially on granite, but support peoples right to do their thing.

On the flip side, at the end of the day, I support Hayden and Kruk's right to chop the route, and at the same time the next guys right to rebolt it. I do want to suggest that this rebolting will INEVITABLY happen. I heard the Italians paid for a helicopter to tow the compressor back to the summit and then reattach it to the wall after it was cut loose. If that’s true, you can bet you're ass there will be a fully funded team perhaps already enroute, to rebolt this historic line....which would be great for keeping this supertaco thread going.

Also, if the consensus becomes to let the route remain chopped, I think it might appease the gods a little bit if an effort is made to truly clean the route by filing all of the holes with epoxy and rock dust, which if done well can remove virtually any trace of scarring to the rock. Regardless Cerro Torre will remain inanimate, unconcerned, and forever bad ass.

AND NOW THE BEST FOR LAST. I had the good fortune to attend a small personal lecture by Reinhold Messner, put on by the American Alpine Club. When asked what he thought about the ascent, he was very excited about it and endorsed the chopping of the route with a big smile and two thumbs up, but when I talked with him after the event, he was slightly disappointed to hear that it was not a completely boltless ascent. At the end of the day, I think Hayden and Jason will be happy to hear that for the most part they have the endorsement of THE godfather of alpine style climbing.

Certainly the pot has been stirred, and perhaps Jason and Hayden have put their pricks in a hornet nest. I think the most positive thing that can come out of this is a constructive and hopefully friendly dialogue about style and ethics in climbing. Personal philosophy is typically something that evolves over the span of a life, and I'm sure that as two young alpinists, Kruk and Hayden will see things from a different perspective ten and twenty years from now.

I do have to say that for Jason Kruk this controversy could be a good thing. Now he can move on from being the guy that sh#t his pants in an offwidth and had to be rescued to the guy that chopped Cerro Torre. http://vimeo.com/13831211

Last time I saw Hayden he was hucking fifty-foot backflips from the anchors of Pumparama in Rifle. That day we talked about Yosemite climbing and taking those skills to the mountains. I was impressed by his unique mix of 5.14 abilities combined with psyche and talent for alpinism, but mostly I was impressed by his goodhearted friendly nature.

Regardless of what we may think about the chop, I assure you, these are two great guys, who would probably be happy to talk with any of you about their decision over a cold beer near you.

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA

Jan 23, 2012 - 02:44am PT

As to Largo's point about the leading edge climbers...

Does anyone else remember what happened to the bolt ladder on the Salathe after the first free ascent of the pitches to Heart Ledge (AKA Freeblast)? I seem to recall the ladder being chopped and one of the FFA team coming into Camp 4 with a necklace of bolt hangers.

I guess history does actually repeat itself.

Clint Cummins

Trad climber

SF Bay area, CA

Jan 23, 2012 - 02:51am PT

> nor remove them from the rap bolted route to the left "Shipoopi."

Um, no, Shipoopi was drilled on lead.
Is your mistake based on the fact that it has a lot of bolts, therefore you guessed it could not have been bolted on lead?

Also, I find the the following argument (by yourself and others) strange:
"Since the Maestri belay/rappel anchors were used, it was not a 'fair means' ascent."
You define 'fair means' as no bolts.

I define 'fair means' as: no full pitch bolt ladders, when there are traditional type alternatives.

Some type of fixed rappel anchors are needed on this climb.
It is used by many people as a descent and retreat route.
The Maestri belay/rappel anchors work fine for this.
The problem with Maestri's route was not the fixed belay/rappel anchors, but the 8 pitches of bolt ladders.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 23, 2012 - 02:57am PT

Alright,
first point. He was an american in his country.
Second Point. Kennedy and Kruk did use Maestri Bolts for protection or for selays.
Third point. Then there would be no objection if somebody, argentinian, italian or whoever, who rappel from the Nose and chop the bolts, right?

Ceedy

climber

Cali.

Jan 23, 2012 - 02:59am PT

My bad about Shipoopi... bad analogy I guess.... but I just heard Lama freed the route at spicy 8a without adding any bolts... Wow!

nopantsben

climber

Jan 23, 2012 - 03:01am PT

now if that's true, that is good style!! :)

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 23, 2012 - 03:02am PT

You mean NO More than the 60 new ones Lama's team already added?

So Steve are you saying that rather than taking one of the pretty girls to the prom you would rather have settled for re-raping the fat ugly chick because she is easy?

People get too hung up on climbs with name recognition. It is hard to brag to the folks back home about something they have never heard of.So "Joe the Plumbers" pay 60K to stand in a short rope conga line just so they can thump their chest at home. It just has to be Everest, 'cause you know. who ever heard of K2? Climbs with wide spread general public name recognition, or as I like to put it the "Jello Factor" (think gelatin not legend) while probably commercially beneficial are Climbing's worst nightmare. People don't drive from New Jersey to climb a bunch of great routes in the west. No they just have to do the 3rd Flatiron, Naked Edge, Casual Route, Cruise, Castleton, Nose, Denali. You name it, they will come. In great unwashed hoards they will come. Ignoring acres of stone they will like moths flap straight to the names. Thus the Fifty Crowded Climbs get quested into submission, flogged into insignificance and loved to death.

Clipping A1 bolt ladders up the headwall on Cerro Torre or clanging up the Chinese Ladder on Everest only indicates that your passage was guided by and facilitated by pre-placed protection requiring the excessive use of unnecessary artifice. You didn't climb it for your self.
So the easiest way to the hardest summit is gone and replaced with another not much harder but more organically linked to the mountain. The newer variant requires more real climbing than the A1 clip up of the Bolt Route and probably won't become a tat fest like it's predecessor. The new route will not be a ladder to the roof but a real climb for real climbers..

Shouldn't the attainment of great summits be a rite of passage rather than the right of a path.

The climbing community used to believe in doing and repeating routes in as good of or better style than those before you. You had to really step up to the task as their shoulders were so high off the ground. The aiml was always to remove as much artifice as possible and to work towards the purity of clean and free ascent. The community used to feel it was important to leave places better than you found them. Now it seems that denuded ground and disintegrating crash pads in the tundra is OK as long as I crush my proj brah. That David Lama and Red Bull would be seen as less a threat than the North American white trash bad boys is astounding to me. And shameful.

Same thing happens in the great ranges of the world.
The Quest for the 7 summits is a fine example of the tunnel vision many people have.
It is a fine quest, but once you set something for others to measure themselves against, even real macho life and death BS, look out all bets are off.
How fast is the Nose done in a day now?

James

climber

My twin brother's laundry room

Jan 23, 2012 - 03:05am PT

The rules of climbing are made by those who act.

Word from Chalten says that David Lama just free climbed Cerro Torre. The Redbull sponsored athlete didn't add any bolts (not sure about the exact details of the ascent as he tried the route the previous year). The climb goes at the modern moderate grade of 8a.

I'm not sure how I feel about the bolts removal. As a friend of Hayden, I'm pysched he did something. Action about a passionate issue is better than endless dialogue. Whether chopping the bolts is right or wrong, I could care less. It's the fact that he acted on his feelings that I'm most proud of.

Hopefully him and Kruk won't be arrested again.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 23, 2012 - 04:22am PT

This is how wars get started, and Jason and Hayden have undoubtedly fired the opening salvo in one of the most legendary bolt wars of all time

Just a clarification that if a bolt war does break out, it was Maestri - not Jason and Hayden - who fired the "opening salvo"...

Clint Cummins

Trad climber

SF Bay area, CA

Jan 23, 2012 - 05:45am PT

if it happened 40 years ago ', and the badboys were repeated by the same means, you'd be right

does not look a bit 'too easy to say now?

to show the world that could be done in '70, Mr. Lama must now climb it means that time, all the clothing and the material of the 70s

We would also look good, why do not we try?

Poor argument.
Nobody is (rightfully) saying when they free climb a route that they are an inherently better climber than the person who aided it in the past.
Everything is conditional on equipment (and weather, icing, etc.).
All that a freed route means is that it can be free climbed with the equipment used and in the conditions experienced.

The SE Buttress could have been climbed without full pitch bolt ladders in the 1970s.
This is one point that I believe most of us agree on.

I do wonder what the ice conditions were at R10 when Maestri was there.
Was there a 10 ton ice block just above R10, like there was two years later for Leo Dickinson?
If so, maybe Maestri had the same problem reaching the arete of the 1968 route.
But I wonder if he could have bolted around the ice block instead of doing the 90m traverse.
Did he feel the arete might be blank?
Certainly he could see the chimney/crack system further right,
once he got to the initial arete on the right ("start of 90m traverse" photo).
And he could see that the chimney system was reachable by extending the traverse with the power bolting.
Or he may have planned in advance to reach the chimneys, from prior examination of photos.
The problem was that the power bolting changed the "time cost" of pitch location.
And there is a secondary problem of
"I brought this bolting equipment all the way up here; I might as well use it."
Many of us have experienced this (usually as added belay bolts).
If he was bolting by hand, I think he would have gone around the ice block and gone up the arete.

[Edit: I found the answer to this, right on Rolo's site]
"The bolt traverse was climbed in the winter when a big snow mushroom blocked passage on the ridge itself." http://www.pataclimb.com/climbingareas/chalten/torregroup/torre/SEridge.html
So the power drill (in the second attempt, Feb. 1971) was not a factor in choosing the 90m traverse; they established that traverse in June 1970 on their first attempt.

In the same way, the existence of bolt ladders change the "time cost" of pitch selection by subsequent parties, like Dickinson's.
"It will be faster / safer to use the ladder; it's already here, everybody uses it, ...."
That's why it is helpful for the ladders to be removed.
No more temptation to the dark side. :-)

maze

Ice climber

Jan 23, 2012 - 08:17am PT

fordaibal, i think you are doing some mistakes, generalizing a single (for me, arrogant..) act of an american and a canadian guys whit all the US. it's irritating, and i'm italian.

Regards

ALPINEMAN

Trad climber

bogota

Jan 23, 2012 - 08:21am PT

so your nickname is better "labirinto"

Bababata

Mountain climber

Utopia

Jan 23, 2012 - 08:50am PT

fòradaiball, google translator is probably not the best way to communicate because you seem to be missing my point.

The Nose and Salathe were put up in an acceptable style at the time. The Compressor was put up in the worst possible style in its time, it was a disgrace and the climbing community seems to agree on this. You cannot compare the two.

Maestri chose to force his way up instead of retreating. He lowered the mountain to his level. How he got up didn't matter to him. It's an attitude the climbing community has been fighting for 4 decades (starting with Messner). It is an ethical issue, and a difficult one at that. Why not put up an escalator to the top? Where do we draw the line? One thing is clear - people seem to agree that Maestri did cross the line. So, that route should not have been there. Period.

It is a happy ending, people! A terrible injustice has been amended. We should all be rejoicing, not lamenting...

(The only reason to lament is if you were somehow personally invested in climbing that route, like Shipoopi. I understand why he is upset, but that's a very personal, dare i say selfish, reason. Steve, with your credentials, I'm sure you won't have any trouble climbing the "new" route. And you will have actually climbed the mountain, as opposed to climbing a ladder to the top. Go get the friggin' second ascent! ;)

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 23, 2012 - 09:37am PT

Steve Schneider:

As someone who has put in a lot of time on the Compressor route I think your personal views are very valid and can completely understand why something like this would upset you. That being said, I would say that no one is forcing you to climb the west face or any other route on the mountain. The Compressor Route, in the sense of the line up the rock, is still there; it's not like holds were chipped or erased from the rock itself. A climber with your talent and experience shouldn't have much trouble either drilling new bolts (there's already starter holes to use! :) ) or using bathooks/batheads in the holes to get up the line. And I fully support your right (or anyone else's) to climb that line and put in whatever protection you think is necessary. Somehow, I doubt you would place 400 bolts.

Really, to me the shame of the Compressor Route is that it's a line that seemingly has so much more to do with the protection than it does with the climbing, and least based on how it's discussed in the public sphere. Maybe this Lama free climb (if confirmed, and after details emerge) will help change that.

BeeTee

Social climber

Valdez Alaska

Jan 23, 2012 - 10:08am PT

So some young hotshots come long forty years later and chop a historic route.. how sanctimonious we climbers are ....

fsck

climber

Jan 23, 2012 - 10:16am PT

historic garbage
left by an unchecked ego
good riddance to it

K&K Cleaners
janitors of the wild
open on sundays

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 23, 2012 - 10:32am PT

So David Lama stepped up to the plate and now their is a better route and the bolts that were removed proved unnecessary.
Can't we all just get along?

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 23, 2012 - 10:47am PT

Oh come on just go pick the Nose already.

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 23, 2012 - 10:55am PT

All this straw-manning about The Nose and its bolts is getting kind of tiresome. I wonder if any of the keyboard warriors threatening to chop it will even turn up in the valley let alone go up there and do the deed.

FeelioBabar

Trad climber

One drink ahead of my past.

Jan 23, 2012 - 10:56am PT

awesome ascent.

...but chopping the bolts is just pissing on the route again.......(sigh).

TwistedCrank

climber

Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom

Jan 23, 2012 - 11:07am PT

It must be really embarassing for David Lama to have to wear that stupid Red Bull cap. Poor guy.

nature

climber

Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...

Jan 23, 2012 - 11:10am PT

careful there BlackSpider, though fallacies of logic have been committed at an epic rate few actually understand "straw-man". (they probably think of Dorothy and Toto)

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 23, 2012 - 11:26am PT

Philo,

Should I go chop The Grand Wall route in Squamish, it has tons of ladders, and was very controversial and I did a fairesh means ascent, all free to boot?

Should I feel better and holier than all those who came before me, and those who cannot free the route and proclaim once and for all, I'm God? Remove the ladders and let the world know they are not worthy?

What say you great sage?

Good suggestion.

The Nose has been mentioned because is a historical route, with bolt ladders, which has been controversial when it was climbed.

But since these two guys arbitrarily decided to chop the Compressor's bolts, I don't see why this principle cannot be applied elsewhere.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 23, 2012 - 11:30am PT

Coz, a bit non sequitur I should think but if that's what would float your boat then by all means go for it.

I think you are unfairly condemning K&K with personality traits and motivations that they probably don't have.

So Enzolino by the extension of your logic of precedence can i show up in the Dolomites and haul a gas compressor to bolt a directisima ladder on any wall I want and leave the machinery hanging if I want?

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 23, 2012 - 11:46am PT

So Enzolino by the extension of your logic of precedence can i show up in the Dolomites and haul a gas compressor to bolt a directisima ladder on any wall I want and leave the machinery hanging if I want?

Not only ... you can go to Dolomite, re-write the history of those places, even change the names of the routes, of the summits, question all the ascents without proof and attribute your self the credit of previous routes if who opened them did not really reach the very summit ... and to support your action you can artfully design an ethical propaganda against those climbers who opened the Direttissimas more than 40 years ago ...
Someone else has already done it ... in Patagonia ...
http://alpinesketches.wordpress.com/2012/01/23/pataclimb-when-toponymy-hides-a-crusade/

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 23, 2012 - 11:50am PT

Curiously many people seem extremely concerned with the Argentinean opinion but what about the Chilean perspective? The area spans both countries.

http://www.pauldeegan.com/destinations/oth_patagonia.pdf

Where Is It And Who Owns It?
Patagonia is not a political country but a geographic anomaly. Spanning two
countries - Argentina and Chile - Patagonia occupies of up to one million square
kilometres, yet just 5% of both nations’ populations live there. In Argentina,
Patagonia is generally understood to begin south of the Rio Colorado, but in Chile
this definition encompasses areas like their Lake District. Chileans on the other
hand recognise Patagonia as being the land south of Puerto Montt (a much
smaller area). Even then some Chileans believe that Patagonia exists only in
Argentina. As one local Chilean informed me in no uncertain terms, “This is not
Patagonia - this in Magellanes!” (Magellan was the Spanish explorer who
explored much of this region. Ironically, it is he who is credited with coming up
with the name Patagonia!) The World Service’s definition of what has become
recognised as Patagonia in popular circles is the land south of Puerto Montt. Look
in an atlas and you’ll see that Argentine Patagonia is for the most part as flat as a
pancake, whilst the Chilean side is littered with mountains that stretch like a spine
all the way to Cape Horn.

MH2

climber

Jan 23, 2012 - 12:08pm PT

MH2, who could possibly care about what some climber from a hundred years ago has to say?

Ha ha. I care what every climber has to say but don't have time to listen to all of them.

There is more like a probable resemblance between you and the guy John Gill thanked for the translation, Randisi.

tarek

climber

berkeley

Jan 23, 2012 - 12:18pm PT

damn, good thing bolts can't be placed, removed and replaced by strokes on a key board or lip flapping...

thanks to the Italians for a valiant effort here...to get some Americans to speak a second language.

giggio

climber

Milano, Italy

Jan 23, 2012 - 12:32pm PT

philo, your proposal is quite old-fashioned: lots of people in the '50/'60, except for the use of a compressor, already did it in the Dolomites.
After some time, in '70s and '80s, many climbers of the new generation did a lot of efforts to free climb that lines... and succeeded. To have fun and show to everybody that a different style was possible... but without the necessity to raise up crusades and consider themselves as the priests of puriry.

Gene

climber

Jan 23, 2012 - 12:56pm PT

Alpinist has received confirmation that Hayden Kennedy and Jason Kruk did indeed chop over a hundred bolts off of the Compressor Route. One hundred and two bolts from the route were confiscated by local police. Police detained the two climbers after "a group of forty people [who] went to lynch the Canadian climber Jason Kruk in the parlor of Miguel Burgos..." Kennedy and Kruk are currently in the mountains with friends. They will prepare a press report in the coming days.

In the meantime, Planetmountain.com has reported that David Lama, a climber familiar with Cerro Torre controversies, has successfully free climbed the Compressor Route. Details about Lama's ascent remain scarce though it is known that a film team climbed Cerro Torre via the Ragni Route prior to Lama's free climb.

http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web12w/newswire-update-compressor

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 23, 2012 - 01:04pm PT

Yes Giggio it was the use of a gas powered compressor to blatantly over bolt a failed route that has me believing the chopping was a good thing. Where else has this ever been done? How can Maestri's crime be justified on historic merit? It was a disgrace to the memory of Toni Eggar and the whole of the climbing world. Made worse by Maestri's continued lying and legal reactions to his detractors.
But if that is the legacy you want to preserve then OK go for it.

You know that pesky ice mushroom sure causes lots of people grief. Why not fly up to the summit in a helicopter Blast in some major anchors and hang a permanent ladder down the head wall? That way those who believe thye have been robbed of a golden opportunity can still brag they summited Cerro Torre.

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 23, 2012 - 01:08pm PT

What's the accepted timeframe at which point trash and garbage ceases to be so and becomes "historical artifacts" instead? For instance, if someone finds an oxygen bottle from a 1920s British expedition on Everest, should it be left up there?

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 23, 2012 - 01:13pm PT

Or a bust of Mao?

Stambecco

Trad climber

italy

Jan 23, 2012 - 01:22pm PT

I only think those two guys are young and brilliant, and they made a decision that is strong exactly because of their age. Maestri bolted the route in reaction of what was said about him and Egger ascent and lots of people commented it for 40 years. 40 years of bla bla. And it took 40 years to have somebody that re-reacted to this thing. It's history, ok. But if I could chance what Nazism did in the thirties and in the fourties, I would do it, even if it is part of the history!
Back to the climbing, I don't know if they were right or wrong. But exactly like Maestri (was he right?), they did something, all the rest is blabla. I'm pretty sure, having seen and listened to Maestri, he would have appreciated more those two climbers than the rest of thousands who only talked about.

ot, after schettino, Italy has another superman, fòradaiball, who, luckily, does not represent the 0,0001% of the population. I apologise for his stupid behaviour, it's like a madman, let him speak and always tell him he is right and that we are all friend of him, and so on...

bmacd

Mountain climber

100% Canadian

Jan 23, 2012 - 01:26pm PT

Jan 21st Interview with Jason, Hayden, Colin and Rolo in the El Chalten Diary Online

http://www.lacachania.com.ar/noticia.php?id_nota=185&id_seccion=1

Studly

Trad climber

Jan 23, 2012 - 01:27pm PT

I spoke with my buddy Tim who has done the Compressor Route although he did not summit the snow mushroom, and he is disappointed that this happened, and felt this was a historic route and a unneeded action.

Gene

climber

Jan 23, 2012 - 01:33pm PT

Can anyone tell me where the Ragni route is? my head is starting to spin

Good stuff on Rolo's site. The right side of page has links to the individual routes.

http://www.pataclimb.com/climbingareas/chalten/torregroup/torre.html

aran

Trad climber

oakland, ca

Jan 23, 2012 - 01:43pm PT

Thanks for the link BMACD. Great interview, there commentary is pretty much what I expected- thoughtful, respectful but unapologetic and direct.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 23, 2012 - 01:43pm PT

The Ragni Route is on the West Face.

Studly, Though he may have A1ed up the bolt ladder, without finishing to the summit your friend did not do the route.

Cosimon

climber

Boulder, CO

Jan 23, 2012 - 01:54pm PT

Now ascents of Cerro Torre will be more special.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 23, 2012 - 01:55pm PT

http://www.lacachania.com.ar/noticia.php?id_nota=185&id_seccion=1

Can anyone translate this?

YoungGun

climber

North

Jan 23, 2012 - 02:02pm PT

Dave's KKK term gains momentum:

Earlier this week the team of Hayden Kennedy and Jason Kruk chopped the historically significant and controversial Compressor Route on Cerro Torre leading some climbers to characterize the situation as the Kennedy-Kruk-Kontroversy (KKK). While few climbers believe that Cesare Maesti’s Compressor route embodies the current ideals for alpine climbing, most were reticent about erasing the route. The reaction in the climbing community is understandably divided. The anti-bolt fans whose position has been fuelled for years by Rolando Garibotti’s chopping campaign are positive, but others are concerned about the seemingly cavalier attitude of ignoring the historical significance of the climb and the results of a 2007 vote held in the nearby town of El Chalten that concluded the route should not be chopped.

Many have said that Kennedy and Kruk didn’t have the right to remove such a historically significant route without wider consultation - especially since many of the locals feel the route should stay. Some argue that Kennedy and Kruk have not climbed the full Compressor Route but rather a more logical variation where they used four bolts placed by other parties and one placed by Kruk last year during his attempt on the wall. Reports also suggest that the team used the bolted belays from Maestri’s route.

Reports also suggest that when Kennedy and Kruk got back to camp they were confronted by a group of local climbers demanding an explanation for their actions. During this time the police arrived and confiscated the chopped bolts and took them to the police station to take a statement.

http://gripped.com/2012/01/sections/news/jan-23-2012-kkk-situation-rages-on-cerro-torre/

Studly

Trad climber

Jan 23, 2012 - 02:05pm PT

Affirmative Bruce.
Philo, use Google translating, and then just copy and paste.
In reference to your earlier comment, I think sometimes conditions dictate otherwise when you're in the mountains, and I beg to differ with you that he didn't do the route if he climbed all the way to the summit mushroom. He didn't summit perhaps but he did the route. but whatever, it doesn't matter. What does matter is many people should have had a voice in this. Thats all.
Now as a climbing community we have to move on to where it goes next.

tarallo

Trad climber

italy

Jan 23, 2012 - 02:19pm PT

no only the harding slot....you should try it....foradaiball you are a great dickhead

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 23, 2012 - 02:23pm PT

Hanging in stirrups clipping up a bolt ladder placed in horrible style by someone else when a perfectly good real climb exists is stupid. Going that way simply because it is there and been done before is equally stupid. Claiming glory for not summiting is pathetic. If you can't do it without dragging it down to your level you shouldn't be there.

ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber

San Francisco, Ca

Jan 23, 2012 - 02:25pm PT

Have you climbed Cerro Torre Philo?

Kimbo

Sport climber

seattle

Jan 23, 2012 - 02:35pm PT

Pay homage? Where did you get that? I repeatedly have said, "for better or for worse," that right or wrong was not my issue here.

ok my misunderstanding of where your personal sentiments lie.

My point is that "they took it upon themselves," to use your phrase. This is the "direct action" I spoke about and to which the vanguard had always practiced." All the yammering and judgments after the fact are perhaps important in a general, policy-defining kind of way, but the vangard is not expected to define their intentions through other's opinions, which are none of their business. That's just the way they roll, and we're powerless over that.

i think you may be misunderstanding the term "vanguard"....

regardless, i would argue that the two "boys" absolutely did "define their intentions through other's opinions", simply because it's rather impossible for us humanoids to live in a vacuum: undoubtedly they had massive exposure to various arguments related to the compressor route, and chose between competing factions as a model for their actions (ok ok we certainly get into deeper theoretical ideas regarding human "creativity", but i'll leave it at that).

"the vanguard" is not an amoral abstraction, as you seem to imply. "the vanguard" is composed of individual humanoids, "responsible" for their own actions and the consequences of their actions. sometimes humanoids succeed in carrying out actions which are accepted or not; at other times they do not succeed in carrying out those actions (meaning: "we" are not "powerless over that".

Another thing is that the vaugard, if authentic, always pushes the bar up - not sideways or down.

that's a rather moralistic view of the (amoral) "vanguard", eh? and, if even theoretically accurate, certainly not applicable to the two climbers in question: the two climbers climbed a friggin' 5.11 A2 via A DIFFERENT LINE, and then removed bolts from a climb they DIDN'T DO!

there was no "bar" being pushed upwards. they did nothing revolutionary in terms of difficulty or style. all they did was climb a moderately difficult new line and remove some old bolts from an old line.

"vanguard"? more accurately "rear-guard": protectors of an old-skool ethicism which completely ignored more modern context and prevailing sentiment.

gimmeslack

Trad climber

Jan 23, 2012 - 02:37pm PT

Philo: re translation, I did translate the meat of the intereview a while back (when text was first posted). Back around post 265...

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 23, 2012 - 02:38pm PT

No and I probably never will now. But when I was young and driven 13 surgeries ago Cerro Torre was at the top of my list. And not via the Bolt Route. I was actively planning for a trip there in 80 or 81 but having my lip split by my own foot when my knee was violently hyper-extended pretty much changed my plans for ever. Cerro Torre was and is still the most enigmatic symbol of the purity of great alpinism and the taint of overbearing ego. It matters to me "because it's there".

llkk

Trad climber

boulder

Jan 23, 2012 - 02:39pm PT

Cesare Maestri, Jason Kruk and Hayden Kennedy WANTED dead or alive :)

Two people are on the way to the Nose to chop Harding bolts...(right, Lynn hill free it in 92) , so you mediocres climbers can not climb the nose ever again!!
Also, Take out few via ferratas in the Dolomites
Chop the bolts in Squamish in the Sword and Perry's Layback...
C'mon !! Human stupidity does not have limits!!

I totally disagree with Rolo, Hayden Kennedy and Jason Kruk
and feel ashame for the people who are happy for the chopped bolts without knowing sh#t of history

The 2 idiots, in their cleanest ascent still need to use the rappells of Maestri
I dont like Maestris way, but why if entire Chalten community agreed in keeping the bolts as a historic ascent or whatever
why this 2 20/30 year old kids have to come and take bolts out, who the hell are they?
With 5.10 shoes, nice booties, arriving in aeroplane few hs from the plane, reading the forecast!!
f*#k them

give me a break,
First respect for the older generation
Second this 2 americans are f*#king arrogant as well

I think you all that agree with the fact of cleaning the route dont know shit!

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 23, 2012 - 02:43pm PT

@llkk:

"First respect for the older generation"

Interesting. Of that "older generation", we've heard that two major players from that time period - Carlos Comesana and Reinhold Messner (via Cedar Wright's comments) - who agree wholeheartedly with chopping the bolts.

"Second this 2 americans are f*#king arrogant as well

I think you all that agree with the fact of cleaning the route dont know shit!"

Considering you don't know the difference between an American and a Canadian, I don't think you should be telling others they "dont know shit!".

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 23, 2012 - 02:45pm PT

No I don't agree. Many of us know a great deal of the history of Cerro Torre. That is why some are ashamed of Maestri's rape. He was one of the greatest climber's of his time and he pissed it all away on Cerro Torre.

If you feel so strongly that Kruk and Kennedy had no right to clean up Maestri's mess then I would likewise say that Maestri had no right to do what he did in the first place.

The Larry

climber

Moab, UT

Jan 23, 2012 - 02:46pm PT

Did somebody just fart?

WBraun

climber

Jan 23, 2012 - 02:49pm PT

The Nose bolts won't get chopped.

It's not even the same.

Lynn didn't chop them because she has good brain to begin with.

Stupid argument trying to use the Nose on El Cap for this Cerro Tore thing.

People are stupid ......

Slabby D

Trad climber

B'ham WA

Jan 23, 2012 - 02:56pm PT

The Grand Wall in Squamish British Columbia might be a more fitting analogy then, even more so considering its the home town of Jason Kruk.

A megaclassic trad climb up the center of one of the most beautiful granite walls in North America. Originally climbed using many, many bolts over a very long period of time. Now convenience bolt anchors on every pitch. Two bolt ladders, one quite extensive, that can be avoided by free climbing with significantly fewer bolts. All that followed up by a heavily bolted wide crack undercling.

If a crack Italian team showed up in Squamish, climbed the free the route, then chose to chop all the bolts they didn't use because they considered them unneccesary and offensive well it seens that Kruk and Kennedy would have just created the precedent to do so.

Ultimately every new route is a creative process. Whether it include a heavy handed bolt ladder on the headwall by Maestri or whether it be the Kruk-Kennedy route that used on 5 lead bolts and ??25-50-100?? belay bolts.

Chopping a route is a destructive process no matter how you cut it. If your going to take that path you better be both damn sure of yourself as well as incredibly consistent in your actions to avoid looking like a hypocrite and a fool. It seens that the great climbers tended to have enough wisdom to realise this even if they didn't neccesarily agree with the actions and impact of others.

Jason doesn't need or deserve the collective guilt of modern Squamish bolting practices hung around his neck. But damn there are enough squeeze jobs, bolted cracks and unnecesary bolt ladders there to keep a lad busy for a good long while.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 23, 2012 - 02:58pm PT

Cesare Maestri, Jason Kruk and Hayden Kennedy WANTED dead or alive :)

That is NOT even slightly funny!

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 23, 2012 - 02:59pm PT

Fine, let's see them actually do that rather than just threaten it in this thread. And I suspect all the bolts would just get replaced in short order (as anyone with the inclination is more than welcome to do on Cerro Torre).

Also, with respect to any "if you haven't climbed it then why are you talking about it?" posts: I guess there's a lot of posts that should be deleted from the Wings Of Steel threads then, by that standard.

Kimbo

Sport climber

seattle

Jan 23, 2012 - 03:02pm PT

@ philo:

If you feel so strongly that Kruk and Kennedy had no right to clean up Maestri's mess then I would likewise say that Maestri had no right to do what he did in the first place.

i can completely respect your above opinion, and anyone's opinion on this matter, but do you agree with the way the removal was done?

you have been quite vocal on this thread, but i haven't seen you respond to posts regarding the '07 meeting and its near-consensus inre the bolts....

TwistedCrank

climber

Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom

Jan 23, 2012 - 03:04pm PT

Give it a rest, Phil.

Bababata

Mountain climber

Utopia

Jan 23, 2012 - 03:07pm PT

@ Kimbo:

you have been quite vocal on this thread, but i haven't seen you respond to posts regarding the '07 meeting and its near-consensus inre the bolts....

How is it that forty random foreigners residing in El Chalten suddenly represent all of us? Locals were not included because they don't know what a bolt is, neither were park rangers, let alone for ordinary climbers across the world... Shouldn't a democratic vote include everyone? Or do those select 40 represent only the people that want to climb Cerro Torre? Or the people that "think" they can climb Cerro Torre?

I don't see anything democratic about this - please enlighten me.

Kimbo

Sport climber

seattle

Jan 23, 2012 - 03:22pm PT

I never did claim the '07 meeting to represent "all of us", but at least it was an attempt to deal with the situation in a consensus-building way, correct?

which is a lot more than the current approach incorporated, correct?

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 23, 2012 - 03:27pm PT

Old news already.

Now that it is a done deal let us take an international poll.
Surely more than 40 people have an opinion.
You all might be surprised at how many applaud the removal of Maestri's folly.

Gene

climber

Jan 23, 2012 - 03:27pm PT

How's this for irony?

Patagonia™ Climbing Ambassador Hayden Kennedy

g

The Larry

climber

Moab, UT

Jan 23, 2012 - 03:36pm PT

It's not like he climbed Delicate Arch.

TwistedCrank

climber

Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom

Jan 23, 2012 - 03:38pm PT

It's not like he climbed Delicate Arch.

Otherwise he would have to resign himself to being a spokesmodel on Italian television for slacklining.

Bababata

Mountain climber

Utopia

Jan 23, 2012 - 03:43pm PT

@ Kimbo

Not really - there are a lot more people involved here and this website is a much better opportunity to build a consensus. Perhaps we should start with an online poll?

stefano607518

Trad climber

italy/austria/switzerland

Jan 23, 2012 - 03:58pm PT

@foradaiball

perche´ non provi a scrivere in inglese? se parli in italiano qua un te capisce niscuno...

why do not you try to write in english? nobody is gonna understand you if you speak in italian...

Bubba Ho-Tep

climber

Evergreen, CO

Jan 23, 2012 - 04:00pm PT

Now that it is a done deal let us take an international poll.
Surely more than 40 people have an opinion.
You all might be surprised at how many applaud the removal of Maestri's folly.

FWIW, I don't applaud the removal any more than I applauded the installation. IMO, both were a travesty.

Now you have 41.

stefano607518

Trad climber

italy/austria/switzerland

Jan 23, 2012 - 04:00pm PT

anyhow

seems David Lama freed the compressor yesterday...see planetmountain.com
with or without bolts...

by real Fair means...FREE CLIMBING the route

Phil what do you think?

sac

Trad climber

Sun Coast B.C.

Jan 23, 2012 - 04:01pm PT

The Compressor Route freed!

Cerro Torre free.

AWESOME!! Just awesome.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jan 23, 2012 - 04:24pm PT

Is there any more definite source as to what Lama did and didn't do? Or is all embargoed, while it's filtered through lawyers, sponsors, and marketed to make the most dollars?

Jason and Hayden are said to have removed 102 bolts from the Maestri route, out of 400 or more. (Largely on the headwall?) Many that were clearly unnecessary, with 1970 let alone modern gear. However, some that were necessary, particularly on the headwall, where Maestri seems to have chosen a line that is fairly blank. So if they removed 102 bolts, mostly on the headwall, how did Lama free the compressor route? Did he replace the bolts, or?

The bolts being confiscated by the police suggests that there may be a legal element to what happened. Is there? What does Argentinian law say about this sort of thing? We can discuss it all we like - not that seems likely to lead to any definite conclusion - but if there are applicable laws, it would be useful to know.

If Hayden and Jason removed 102 bolts, it either took a lot of time and effort, or they came out easily. Given that all we've heard so far is that theirs was a fast ascent, it suggests the latter. Is it possible that the Maestri bolts were coming to the end of their safe lifetime, in a rather severe environment? They sure weren't placed or maintained by the ASCA!

Regardless of the fate of the Maestri bolt ladders, would it be reasonable for there to be a single well-chosen rappel route down that side of the mountain, with fixed anchors - bolts? So as to limit proliferation of anchors and junk?

Looking on the bright side, this debate has attracted many new posters, often from outside North America, and given us something climbing-related to endlessly discuss at an otherwise quiet time of year for TRs and such.

Russ Walling

Gym climber

Poofter's Froth, Wyoming

Jan 23, 2012 - 04:25pm PT

Did someone chop the compressor route or something????

nature

climber

Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...

Jan 23, 2012 - 04:28pm PT

naw... I think all the hubbub is because someone replaced the chopped bolt on Double Cross.

ionlyski

Trad climber

Kalispell, Montana

Jan 23, 2012 - 04:31pm PT

sono democratico, chi vuole traduce con google (come faccio io qua del resto), chi non vuole non legge

Foradaiball-I tried the google translator. See, it just doesn't work. I wish I spoke Italian but 3 languages is probably my max. I agree that gives me limitations.

It's a shame you putting all your emotional thoughts to this forum in a language very few will ever read and comprehend. When you run the computer translator, it just comes out all gooblygock!

Can you find a friend nearby who can translate your thoughts and insults into English? Not because I or anybody else thinks English is very cool but so we can UNDERSTAND what you have to say.

Arne

The Larry

climber

Moab, UT

Jan 23, 2012 - 04:42pm PT

WTF!?!

ionlyski

Trad climber

Kalispell, Montana

Jan 23, 2012 - 04:45pm PT

You got me there.
Cheers to you and take care.

TwistedCrank

climber

Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom

Jan 23, 2012 - 04:46pm PT

I hope you know that this will go down on your permanent record...

Kimbo

Sport climber

seattle

Jan 23, 2012 - 04:59pm PT

Reports also suggest that when Kennedy and Kruk got back to camp they were confronted by a group of local climbers demanding an explanation for their actions. During this time the police arrived and confiscated the chopped bolts and took them to the police station to take a statement.

i wonder if kruk pooped his pants again?

Steve Barratt

Gym climber

Glasgow, UK

Jan 23, 2012 - 05:08pm PT

2 lessons from this:

1) In the mountains - move fast and efficiently, carry less, avoid exposure to objective hazards and you may also have enough time left to remove existing climbs on the descent!

2)The vole has no legs

TwistedCrank

climber

Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom

Jan 23, 2012 - 05:22pm PT

Long live the vole!

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Jan 23, 2012 - 05:28pm PT

Cliff Phillips said that the bolts came out easily (and this was 4 decades ago) and that they would hammer them back in with a bit of cardboard or a match.

Wade Icey

Trad climber

www.alohashirtrescue.com

Jan 23, 2012 - 05:41pm PT

This is my last word on the topic...voles do have legs.

Rockymaster

climber

Jan 23, 2012 - 06:52pm PT

This statement has recently been updated with the so-called Statement of Ethics on the mountain the International Mountaineering and Climbing Federation (UIAA) announced on 11 December on the occasion of International Mountain Day. In Article 1 (individual responsibility) reflects: "... Place anchors fixed on new or old ways can not be automatically assumed to be acceptable. "Article 4 (foreign countries): "... We must respect local ethics and style of climbing and fixed anchors drill or put in places where there is a traditional ethics against him or where there is no established ethical. "Article 8 (style): "... We should always try to leave no trace on the wall and the mountain.

I live in Chalten, I feel ashamed for letting this guys, David Lama in 2010 and the rest to do what they want in an area WE live and WE love and look after as good as we can...

YoungGun

climber

North

Jan 23, 2012 - 07:03pm PT

From the mouth of the Lama:

I can't believe it… For more than three years I was driven by the idea of freeclimbing the Compressor route on Cerro Torre and now this dream has become true!

My partner Peter Ortner and I started on January 19th from El Chalten and hiked in to Nipo Nino, our first camp. The next morning we climbed up to the Col de la Paciencia, rested there for a few hours and then started our attempt at around 1pm.
We climbed to the start of the Bolt Traverse, but instead of turning right, we went straight up on the technically difficult arete, a few meters left of the Salvaterra crack. I took a couple of falls, until I figured out the right sequence and then was able to send the pitch on my second try from the belay. A few pitches higher we reached the Iced Towers, where we picked a small ledge into an icefield to bivi.
Early the next morning we climbed to the start of the headwall. The fact that Hayden and Jason had chopped Maestri’s bolts a couple of days ago made my endeavour even more challenging, especially mentally as the protection was poor and I had to do long run outs. Climbing on hollow and loose flakes we followed the original Compressor route for three pitches. About 20 meters below the compressor we traversed to the right and then reached a system of cracks and corners that lead us to the summit. Climbing the route in alpine style took us 24 hours from the Col.

To me this first free ascent of the south east ridge of Cerro Torre is the end to the probably greatest adventure I experienced in my life so far. I’m especially proud having it done without adding any bolts. I learned a lot during the past years and climbing in this amazing mountain range has simply been great. Realizing dreams – it couldn’t be any better!

WTF? Via Rock and Ice on Facebook.

Hawkeye

climber

State of Mine

Jan 23, 2012 - 07:06pm PT

you got to hand it to lama, after all the crap he recieved on the intardnet the last time he was there he persevered and showed us how its done. bravo.

Kimbo

Sport climber

seattle

Jan 23, 2012 - 07:15pm PT

@ rockymaster:

I live in Chalten, I feel ashamed for letting this guys, David Lama in 2010 and the rest to do what they want in an area WE live and WE love and look after as good as we can...

thanks for posting, and it'd be nice to hear more opinions from the locals who actually reside there.

bergbryce

Mountain climber

South Lake Tahoe, CA

Jan 23, 2012 - 07:23pm PT

So.... was the establishing ethic from 50 years ago to drag a machine up the face and have a bolting party??

Props to Lama. What a week!

Sam R

climber

Mammoth Lakes, CA

Jan 23, 2012 - 07:25pm PT

WTF? Did someone chop off a vole's legs??

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Jan 23, 2012 - 07:34pm PT

Holy frig, what a great thread. Thanks for the update, Cedar!

I am amazed that anyone could equate bolts on the Nose and Salathe Wall on El Capitan - which were drilled by hand to cross blank featureless sections of rock not otherwise climbable, to those drilled by Maestri on Cerro Torre - drilled with a power tool apparently indiscriminately and often next to usable cracks. To do so undermines both your credibility and your argument.

Congrats to Lama .... um, I think. [See YoungGun's post below] What about all the bolts he drilled last year? Did he use those? Have they been removed yet?

I'm still torn about my feelings over this. It is rare that I feel so ethically challenged, as I really hate bolts. I think it was bad form for these two non-locals to have taken this into their own hands. I wouldn't be heartbroken if "legit" bolts of Maestri's were replaced [for example, those required to cross blank rock] but not "stupid" bolts [for example, those next to cracks]. I am inclined to agree with Cedar's prophecy that the route will be re-established.

Then again, I'm not exactly upset that such an amazing peak as Cerro Torre no longer has an "easy way up", as if a route that shut Steve Schneider down four times could ever be considered "easy".

YoungGun

climber

North

Jan 23, 2012 - 07:34pm PT

So I guess by "without adding any bolts" he means "if you don't include the 60 I already added"?!?

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jan 23, 2012 - 07:36pm PT

It sounds like Jason and Hayden didn't remove the compressor. Again, detailed information as to who did what is still in short supply.

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Jan 23, 2012 - 07:41pm PT

Recall that Schneider climbed the first one day solo ascent of the Nose--it's not the difficulty that has shut down Steve on Cerro Torre.

But his story is not uncommon--the year I climbed it with Conrad, there were some Brits who were in situ for several months during their fourth unsuccessful trip to Patagonia. After several attempts on the Compressor Route, they left a week before the weather window opened that year!

Hawkeye

climber

State of Mine

Jan 23, 2012 - 07:42pm PT

So I guess by "without adding any bolts" he means "if you don't include the 60 I already added"?!?

devils in the detials, it will be interesting to find out. seems like too many soundbites coming out of all of this and i bet when we hear more from all involved it wont be any prettier...

Gene

climber

Jan 23, 2012 - 07:46pm PT

It appears that the chopping on the Maestri line doesn't matter anymore, right?

Can't wait to see what tomorrow brings. Anyone see Alex lately?

nopantsben

climber

Jan 23, 2012 - 07:59pm PT

none of the bolts that the film team placed 2 years ago were used by Lama, because they weren't place to protect the climbing.
it was not 60 bolts either, tho that's a detail.

BASE104

climber

An Oil Field

Jan 23, 2012 - 08:12pm PT

Seems kind of quiet. Everyone in Italy is sleeping it off right now.

I visited Italy once. Shipley and I were drunk off of our asses and hunkered down next to a hut once. Dude came out and told us that it was illegal to bivy within a hundred meters of a hut. We weren't sleeping. Just waiting for our heads to clear before blasting off. We were too poor for huts.

We hid in the back, but were promptly caught and ordered inside for free.

Nice people, and from what I saw, it was very beautiful. We could only see about 20 feet, though.

No lie. Midnight in Italy. Like an hour or something until we sobered up.

I'm too old and fat to have much of an opinion on this, but if this had happened twenty years ago I would have said,

"Damnit! I'll NEVER be able to do Cerro Torre now!!"

Also, don't ever buy Pizza in France.

Fritz

Trad climber

Choss Creek, ID

Jan 23, 2012 - 08:37pm PT

WOW!

Pass the popcorn please.

Heard from my guide/friend in Bariloche (Patagonia).

He and the locals seem somewhat offended at the Northamericanos chopping bolts in Patagonia.

Being offended makes sense to me.

Do batter-fried legless voles taste yummy?

Or are they best driven into boltless holes?

BASE104

climber

An Oil Field

Jan 23, 2012 - 08:56pm PT

You have to kind of be in your rocking chair to truly appreciate the stink over what Maestri did. Cerro Torre was the plumb of the world.

The doubt over Maestri's first ascent with Egger was a cloud, of course. At that time, Cerro Torre was the most unreal mountain on the planet. So when he put in all of those bolts, it seemed not only odd, but downright blasphemous.

Oddly, it ended up being the most popular route on the mountain. You could spend season after season down there trying to put something new up. The compressor route could fit into one of the short weather windows, and you could climb the great Cerro Torre, to boot. I remember talking to Walt about it. He was stoked when he got back.

Never been there, but I have seen pictures. Cerro Torre might be the most beautiful and hairball looking peak on Earth.

I dunno why the Italians are so territorial about this. They did the first ascent via the Ferrari route. I saw a picture of Hayden Kennedy on that route, and with all of the bizarre ice, it looked like some kind of wonderland on that side. Incredibly beautiful. The caption said that they couldn't do the mushroom and had to bail below the summit.

fsck

climber

Jan 23, 2012 - 09:34pm PT

hey coz tell us one
more time how bad ass you are
never gets old, bro

James

climber

My twin brother's laundry room

Jan 23, 2012 - 09:44pm PT

Coz has a good point

krahmes

Social climber

Stumptown

Jan 23, 2012 - 09:46pm PT

Like whatever. All I know is that every time I think of those guys (who I wouldn’t know from Adam) climbing that thing and then chopping that bonfire of vanity, delusion, and presumption on the way down: I smile.

I got nothing much to add I suppose the critic in me see it as a little post modern deconstruction laying bare the historic fetishes we attach to our lives and letting a new chapter of the tale of now unfold.

Some confusion about what ethnic label to place on the duo; I’d opt for the old California word Anglo given the unfortunate circumstance that one is Canadian.

BTW I thought the official language of EU countries was now German; so what gives with the Italian? If Europeans want to come over to American and start chopping routes (after permission from Brussels and Monti of course) that would make me smile too and hell would freeze over and ST would be ablaze.

The resurrection of the impossible for a lot of people, indeed; it will probably all end in sorrow and more high tensile steel; but for now I’m still smiling.

Myles Moser

climber

Lone Pine, Ca

Jan 23, 2012 - 09:48pm PT

how many of the 101 bolts were Cesare Maestri?

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jan 23, 2012 - 09:51pm PT

Scott, the original Grand Wall bolt ladder, from the top of the Flake to the base of the Split Pillar, is hardly a secret. To quote the official rock climbing strategy for the park:

Three features which are of historical value to the climbing community are the small rock sculpture near the Grand Wall Trail, the original Baldwin/Cooper bolt ladder on the Grand Wall route and the Baldwin plaque at the top of the Apron.

Climbers and other users will be encouraged to protect the rock sculpture and the Baldwin/Cooper bolt ladder.

The bolt ladder is about 100 m long, and was placed by Jim Baldwin and Ed Cooper in spring 1961. It was the only way for them to get to the base of the Pillar, given the techniques and knowledge of the time. (What later became Mercy Me isn't obvious.) Sadly, the front face of the Chief lacks continuous crack lines, with even fewer than say those on the Nose. Every route on it has a substantial number of bolts, and high bolts/metre ratio.

I believe that some of the bolts on the ladder have been removed or shifted, as the area is now crossed by later lines. But we like it just as it is.

The only route on the Grand Wall (area) with a significantly fewer number of bolts was University Wall, done by Hamie and Tricouni, amongst others. IIRC they used only a dozen or so total, on a largely separate line - it only joined Grand Wall for the last few pitches in the Roman Chimneys. Not many lines from Dance Platform/Bellygood up. University Wall was also the first route on the Grand Wall to be done free.

bmacd

Mountain climber

100% Canadian

Jan 23, 2012 - 09:58pm PT

You are free to chop as you wish Coz ... go for it. Perhaps you should start with chopping the bolt ladder on Perry's Lieback on Grandwall - or did you clip those for the free ascent ? Pesky details Eh ?

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jan 23, 2012 - 10:02pm PT

Freeway is usually considered part of the Western Dihedrals, and indeed is on the left side of Tantalus Wall.

Edit: The Grand Wall bolt ladder may have been the longest bolt ladder in the world, until Maestri came along. (OK, it's maybe 5% pins in flakes and stuff - close enough.) And Maestri had to use a motorized drill to top it - although he'd probably never heard of Squamish then.

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Jan 23, 2012 - 10:04pm PT

Should we ever forget the fabulous Italian soccer players who get brushed on the thigh, nose dive to the turf and proceed to log roll and wail as if gut shot with a .12 gauge shotgun. It's great theater.

What's more, the original compressor route was always considered an abomination by most all serious rock climbers, it just so happened to go up one of the greatest of all rock formations. The irony is that removing the rote is now considered by some to be the greater crime than CM's original effort, shrouded as it was (as was the previous Egger debacle) in blarney and misinformation.

This whole saga is so convoluted and plain strange there might never be any true sorting out.

JL

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 23, 2012 - 10:24pm PT

That's how I saw it and still do.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jan 23, 2012 - 10:27pm PT

Largo mentions Italian football players, and their theatrics. Unfortunately common to most football nations, not just the Italians.

And if we're talking about Italian national character, let's not forget that Walter Bonatti was active at about the same time as Maestri, and that Messner (from south Tirol) came along not long afterward. And Ferrari and the Lecco Spiders (Rangni di Lecco), who made the first ascent of Cerro Torre in 1974.

ionlyski

Trad climber

Kalispell, Montana

Jan 23, 2012 - 10:28pm PT

The point you seem to miss is that some too many bolts on the Grand Wall is not the same thing as driving 450 bolts in with a piston. Can't you get that? It's not gray area Scott. The line of ethics was crossed too far, even in his time.

If he did it on the Grand Wall, you would have a strong case to go chop them.

Arne

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 23, 2012 - 10:45pm PT

And who will speak for the Chileans?
Are they not locals also?

marty(r)

climber

beneath the valley of ultravegans

Jan 23, 2012 - 10:57pm PT

From VerticalArgentina, the global south's answer to Alpinist: ¿Fair Means en el Torre?

mike m

Trad climber

black hills

Jan 23, 2012 - 11:08pm PT

I am having so much fun reading this sh@t that I am kinda starting to hope that routes get chopped every day.

Someone should cut all the fixed ropes off Everest, take that damn bolt off of ship rock, and start to revirginize all cracks that have been beat to hell by pitons by cementing them shut.

sac

Trad climber

Sun Coast B.C.

Jan 23, 2012 - 11:09pm PT

Nice craggin'/choppin' weather, eh? No wonder...yikes!

labrat

Trad climber

Nevada City, CA

Jan 23, 2012 - 11:13pm PT

How about asking Cesare Maestri if he is ok with the route being chopped? I believe he is still alive. Not sure if this question has been asked. Please forgive me if it has.......
Erik

The Larry

climber

Moab, UT

Jan 23, 2012 - 11:19pm PT

Is that the dood that shat himself in that video?

MVM

Trad climber

Jan 23, 2012 - 11:46pm PT

I honestly don't see the difference in chopping this route and chopping the Nose of El Cap. If Lynn Hill had chopped The Nose after her free ascent, she would have deprived thousands of aid! climbers (prob. including young Messrs. Kennedy and Kruk) of very proud big wall memories on the Capitan, post-1993. Kennedy and Kruk's free ascent is a proud achievement, but their bolt-chopping party reeks of the same self-congratulatory entitlement that Maestri himself foisted upon that poor, beautiful tower. They should have taken their cue from Hill/Burke/Rodden/Caldwell and left the "tuning fork" at the base of the climb for the Chilean and Argentine climbers to decide about the chopping issue and let their climbing speak for itself.

rincon

Trad climber

SoCal

Jan 24, 2012 - 12:41am PT

Someone please chop the Half Dome Cable route!

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Jan 24, 2012 - 12:42am PT

They should have taken their cue from Hill/Burke/Rodden/Caldwell and left the "tuning fork" at the base of the climb for the Chilean and Argentine climbers to decide about the chopping issue and let their climbing speak for itself.

All the "should haves" in creation are absolutely none of the vanguards concern per what they do - as it must be with that group. It has nothing to do with you or me liking it or respecting it or agreeing with it or (fill in the blank).

"Should have," and all of our opinions are simply not factors, and that's what seems to fry people's circuits - that the vanguard will be the judge, that we cannot control them by any means. We don't matter in this regard, and for some this is reason to tear them down by any means, whereby we play the Devil to those we accuse of playing God.

It's great theater by any measure.

JL

Myles Moser

climber

Lone Pine, Ca

Jan 24, 2012 - 01:02am PT

so we don't know how many were Cesare Maestri bolts?

MVM

Trad climber

Jan 24, 2012 - 01:34am PT

All ethics lie with the "vanguard," Largo? I call bullshit on that, as I am sure Maestri thought he was the vanguard, too. Cerro Torre is in a National Park and is a UNESCO World Heritage Site. In globally-recognized preserves such as these, the climbing community either acts according to reasoned consensus or it will lose its "rights." These brash young a-holes have immeasurable climbing skills paired with an immeasurable lack of diplomacy. Americans and Canadians taking the law into their own hands in an international preserve only jeopardizes the freedom currently given to climbers in Los Glaciares.

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 24, 2012 - 01:36am PT

"I honestly don't see the difference in chopping this route and chopping the Nose of El Cap. If Lynn Hill had chopped The Nose after her free ascent, she would have deprived thousands of aid! climbers (prob. including young Messrs. Kennedy and Kruk) of very proud big wall memories on the Capitan, post-1993. Kennedy and Kruk's free ascent is a proud achievement, but their bolt-chopping party reeks of the same self-congratulatory entitlement that Maestri himself foisted upon that poor, beautiful tower. They should have taken their cue from Hill/Burke/Rodden/Caldwell and left the "tuning fork" at the base of the climb for the Chilean and Argentine climbers to decide about the chopping issue and let their climbing speak for itself."

Here's the thing: if Lynn Hill had chopped the Nose, she wouldn't have deprived any aid climbers of anything, because it would have been re-established within a day or two at the most. Same with chopping the half-dome cables (which the NPS probably wouldn't look to kindly on), chopping routes in Squamish, and so on.

And that's the funny thing about this whole Cerro Torre business: there's going to be thousands of posts written by the keyboard warriors (myself included, no pretentions here) but is anyone competent who objects to the removal of the bolts going to actually go up on that mountain and put in new ones?

labrat

Trad climber

Nevada City, CA

Jan 24, 2012 - 02:05am PT

Interesting reading here at Rolando Garibotti's website about the history and progression of routes up Cerro Torre. Great quotes from Dougal Haston and Jim Bridwell (second link). Yes, it is clear from Rolo's writings that he holds the Compressor route in contempt but I learned a great deal and many of the descents of other routes are listed as using the Via Ferrata route. Are people going to be able to get down? :-)

I particularly enjoy how he starts off his description!

"If you are interested in getting to the top of the mountain without climbing it, and considering that landing helicopters is illegal in all Argentine National Parks, this gloryfied version of a via ferrata is the route for you. However, if you actually hope to climb Cerro Torre consider the Ragni route on the west face."

Click on the pictures for close ups!

http://www.pataclimb.com/climbingareas/chalten/torregroup/torre.html

http://www.pataclimb.com/climbingareas/chalten/torregroup/torre/SEridge.html

Erik

labrat

Trad climber

Nevada City, CA

Jan 24, 2012 - 02:30am PT

^^English translation of the Italian above cracked me up!^^

"You and your boyfriend are just the poor idiot"

hamie

Social climber

Thekoots

Jan 24, 2012 - 02:32am PT

Jim B
The comment that Baldwin and Cooper were "2 backwoods climbers busting with energy" sounds as if it might be derogatory. I hope not. Your description probably fits the vast majority of those who have climbed at Squamish, in their footsteps and on their shoulders, for the last 50 years. I am happy to call myself a "backwoods climber", although my energy level is way below the busting mark.

Several posters have referenced guides and commercial interests. Are they suggesting that CT is/was a guided peak? If so, how often is/was this done? I had no idea that this might be the case.

More importantly, did Maestri use a sit-start? Did K and K also take the easy way out? Who is up for this next challenge?

The Larry

climber

Moab, UT

Jan 24, 2012 - 02:32am PT

Whya can't you speaka the english?

labrat

Trad climber

Nevada City, CA

Jan 24, 2012 - 02:34am PT

^^Another one! Interesting that Rolo's website says that 98% of the climbers that voted had never set foot on Cerro Torre!^^

"Perhaps you live in the forest, we do not
a few years ago 'it was decided, in Patagonia, that the way was left as it was
If Brennan & C. wanted to change things, they had to convince others that the idea was better to remove the nails
but if you remove the nails from the way most repeated of Cerro Torre, going against the rules, you are stupid and arrogant (a dowry of Americans?)

Now you can plant the flag, idiot"

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 24, 2012 - 03:13am PT

To Largo and the few who still support the K&K action.

The issue is not the cleaning of an overbolted route, but the choice dictated by two climbers in a foreign country against the opinion of the locals.
You may argue that Maestri did the same. And he could have done the wrong choice, as most the climbers believe (including myself). But it's up to the locals to judge, more than us.

Personally I am in favour of chopping bolts in some Direttissimas in Dolomites (e.g. Hasse Brandler). But only with a broad consensus and with the approval of the locals.

As already mentioned, K&K action introduces the principle that can cancel historical controversial routes with bolt ladders in a foreign country. I guess anybody is aware of other bolt ladders in US or Canada on historical routes. It would hurt somebody, but maybe it would push the international climbing community to set up some rules.

I want to add few notes about Maestri Compressor's route.
First of all. He used "pressure bolts" (I don't know the technical term in english), which hold much less weight than expansion bolts. K&K could remove them very easily.
Perhaps the wrong choice was to use a heavy compressor. But this explain why in some points they needed to put so many "pressure bolts". Isn't the same when aid climbers need to put several bolts on belays because of their huge hauling bags?
Secondly. We don't know how much ice there was when Maestri climbed the Compressor route, and it cannot be excluded that the ice was filling the cracks. I remember picture of his ascent with a lot of ice all around.
Third. Maestri was coming from two decades in Dolomites, where Durettissima and Superdirettissima routes were "climbed" with bolt ladders. In late sixties this ethic was declined and started to be criticized. Messner article "The murder of impossible" was published in 1971. But this shows that bolt ladders were not such a big deal in those time in Dolomite, Maestri's favourite playground.
Forth, Maestri doesn't reflect the Italian climbing ethics, style and history, but just one of its facets. Bonatti, Messner, Cassin, Vinatzer, etc are different examples of style and ethics.

Stambecco

Trad climber

italy

Jan 24, 2012 - 05:13am PT

In my opinion they did what a lot of people would have loved to do since 40 years but never had the courage (or the chance) to do it (and that still keep a silent approving of K&K job). Still I'm trying to form my opinion, that is conflictual, but if there is one thing for sure, even if I don't like to say it, is that Patagonian mountains belong to the local, but the walls and the routes are a sort of international ground, something like the moon, where nobody has real rights, because it only interests to some top climber, and to NOBODY else, that is one sure point.
But that's the blabla, ad I already said, only three made somethging. Maestri and K&K.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 24, 2012 - 06:28am PT

To Largo and the few who still support the K&K action.

That there is what we call a "steaming crock of shite". K&K have plenty of support for their actions and always will.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 24, 2012 - 06:47am PT

I have a question.

Hayden Kennedy is sponsored by Patagonia, LaSportiva, and Black Diamond.
Jason Kruk is sponsored by Arc'teryx and Five Ten.

Does anybody know if those companies sponsored and supported the chopping of the historical Compressor route?

Thanks a lot

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 24, 2012 - 06:51am PT

healyje,

I'm sorry, but that was my impression.
Ignoring that statement, would you agree that anybody can go to a foreign country and chop an historical route without the approval of the locals?

I know that Maestri somehow did the same, nevertheless I'm interested to your answer, if you want to reply.

Thanks

semicontinuous

Gym climber

Sweden

Jan 24, 2012 - 07:47am PT

Well,l if their sponsors financially supported the chopping I am moving all my business to them forever.

Sincerely Jonas Wiklund, Sweden.

YoungGun

climber

North

Jan 24, 2012 - 08:36am PT

Hayden Kennedy is sponsored by Patagonia, LaSportiva, and Black Diamond. Jason Kruk is sponsored by Arc'teryx and Five Ten.

Does anybody know if those companies sponsored and supported the chopping of the historical Compressor route?

Since the decision was made at the summit, I really doubt they whipped out the sat phone to call half a dozen different sponsors and get their take on the ballsiest action since their ascent.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Jan 24, 2012 - 09:01am PT

We are much more inclined to spreading our libertarian ideals through imperialism or evangelism, take your pick

unfortunately we know too well your nefarious methods:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalese_cable_car_disaster_(1998);

and your double standards:

unpunishable cowboys abroad

wheening sissy at home

(self-censored example)

be prepared for the nose...

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 24, 2012 - 09:27am PT

"be prepared for the nose..."

Can someone count how many times this has been threatened? I've lost track. Talk about empty promises...

What is it with so many Italian posters acting like chopping bolts on this route was akin to taking a sh#t on the Italian flag? I don't really see where all the insecurity is coming from (especially since an Italian climber made the real first ascent of Cerro Torre anyway).

rolo

climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 24, 2012 - 09:42am PT

The community of climbers that made and make the history of these mountains, that love them dearly, that "take care of them" has existed since well before the town of El Chalten was established (1985 aprox) and populated (1990s).

Although I reside in Chalten, place of residence to me means nothing. A "local" in my view is anyone that devotes himself passionately, in deed, to a given place, regardless of his/her nationality or origin. Silvo Karo is surely a "local climber" although he is Slovene and does not speak a word of Spanish. Ermanno Salvaterra with his more that 50 bivys on the walls of Cerro Torre is surely a local too, the most local of all locals. True locals, in the ethnic and historic sense of the word don't exist here. Place of residence or origin are of little substance.

The 2007 meet and "democratic vote" was little more than a farce. There was no democracy at work because few, if any, true "local climbers" were present. The assembly participants were clearly not a good "sample" of this "particular universe". The decision was nowhere close to being a "community agreement".

Also, I wonder where were these "self appointed locals" in 2010 when Lama's film crew added a bunch of bolts to "their" "historic route"? I did not see them rioting outside of Lama crew's residence, or taking Heli Putz -the head rigger- to the police, and I certainly did not see them anywhere when two of us went to chop those bolts. Was this lack of involvement on their part some sort of selective "historic preservation" since the Lama bolts would have made the mountain even more accessible?

As far as the police involvement with Jason and Hayden, it was illegal from all points of view. No crime was committed and even if there had been one, the Provincial Police has no jurisdiction over events that happen inside a National Park which is Federal land. The police played along with the mob and that is quite worrisome. The police should have detained the mob and not the two people in question. On this same subject, the bolts were not "confiscate" -as reported in a number of websites- because the police had no legal right to do so, instead they asked Jason and Hayden to surrender them voluntarily, which they did.

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 24, 2012 - 09:44am PT

"Also, I wonder where were these "self appointed locals" in 2010 when Lama's film crew added a bunch of bolts to "their" "historic route"? I did not see them rioting outside of Lama crew's residence, or taking Heli Putz -the head rigger- to the police, and I certainly did not see them anywhere when two of us went to chop those bolts. Was this lack of involvement on their part some sort of selective "historic preservation" since the Lama bolts would have made the mountain even more accessible? "

Rolo throwing down the gauntlet!

Great post all around rolo.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 24, 2012 - 10:08am PT

Ignoring that statement, would you agree that anybody can go to a foreign country and chop an historical route without the approval of the locals?

I know that Maestri somehow did the same, nevertheless I'm interested to your answer, if you want to reply.

The notion of the compressor as a "historical route" is the first problem I have with your question. Other than the bolting unfortunately happened, I find nothing "historical" about the route beyond the sad fact it was not 'historically' cleaned up up shortly after the debacle occurred. The second is of the notion of "locals" in this context. Rolo makes the point there are effectively no "locals" when it comes to CT beyond those who love it and have invested time there to climb it.

The only arrogance in my eyes is Maestri's rape of the stone and any efforts to right that tragedy by repairing the stone to the degree possible are welcome (spoken as a non-local, but someone who still aspires to make the trip).

giggio

climber

Milano, Italy

Jan 24, 2012 - 10:16am PT

The 2007 meet and "democratic vote" was little more than a farce. There was no democracy at work because few, if any, true "local climbers" were present. The assembly participants were clearly not a good "sample" of this "particular universe". The decision was nowhere close to being a "community agreement".

Just one question: did you set up a similar meeting involving all the "real locals"?

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Jan 24, 2012 - 10:19am PT

Questions for Rolo:

"and I certainly did not see them anywhere when two of us went to chop those bolts."

1) Did you chop Lama's bolts? If so, who added these bolts and why? The climber or his film crew? [It is hard to follow the entire story from over here, so please give us a bit of a recap.] Where were the bolts you chopped located, how were they installed, and when did you do it? What is the condition of the holes now?

"The police played along with the mob and that is quite worrisome. The police should have detained the mob and not the two people in question."

2) Are you kidding? Was there really some kind of mob scene? What happened?! That's amazing.

It would be really great if someone could find and either link or scan and post Ken Wilson's editorial[s] from Mountain Magazine back in the day, and perhaps Reinhold Messner's comments from back then too, please.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 24, 2012 - 10:43am PT

Besises the questions appointed by the others, do you believe that someone who "devotes himself passionately, in deed, to a given place, regardless of his/her nationality or origin"

would throw the aluminium capsule of more than 200 chilograms on Cerro Torre's Glacier, after climbing the Route, like Salvaterra did in 1995?

changes the toponym of the area and re-write history just because of his arbitrary and disputable choices and ethics, and just because "he" climbed there?
Do you think that Kennedy and Kruk are "real locals"?

At least, what you called "a little more than a farse", was an attempt to take a decision on a broader basis than that of two boys who decide suddenly to chop the Compressor route on the top of Cerro Torre.

To me, all this issue rather suggests that the driving force of this campaign and these choices, more than the love for a mountain, is the insane love for his own and huge Ego and integralist climbing fundamentalism.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 24, 2012 - 10:49am PT

The notion of the compressor as a "historical route" is the first problem I have with your question. Other than the bolting unfortunately happened, I find nothing "historical" about the route beyond the sad fact it was not 'historically' cleaned up up shortly after the debacle occurred. The second is of the notion of "locals" in this context. Rolo makes the point there are effectively no "locals" when it comes to CT beyond those who love it and have invested time there to climb it.

The only arrogance in my eyes is Maestri's rape of the stone and any efforts to right that tragedy by repairing the stone to the degree possible are welcome (spoken as a non-local, but someone who still aspires to make the trip).

Healyje,
I disagree but I respect your opinion as far as you extend your concept of "historical routes" to all climbs with bolt ladders, such as the Nose or others ... otherwise, I would think that you have a double standard and such a narrow tunnel vision concerning ethics in climbing to have very low credibility ...

Although I find it a bit fundamentalist, I really respect who pursues cleaner and wilder mountains ... but in this case I have strong doubts concerning the action of Garibotti and his followers ...

As far as the concept of "locals" concern, I'm afraid but to me Garibotti's view is too much blurred and self-centered ...

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 24, 2012 - 10:54am PT

Check out this thread:

It's Time to Remove the Half Dome Cables, started by none other than our own Jim Donini:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1460794/Its-time-to-remove-the-Half-Dome-cables

Thanks for the link ... it's interesting ... I didn't like them very much ... but it also looks a bit elitistic from climbers to remove them ... but I would agree with that ...

But I think routes like the Nose or Lost Arrow are a different issue ... they concern the climbers rather than the hiker domain ...

Ghost

climber

A long way from where I started

Jan 24, 2012 - 11:23am PT

Angry guy said:

non tentate di scaricare le vostre responsabilità su "assemblee assurde", perchè non ci sono più polli da prendere in giro

Which, according to google, means "do not attempt to download your responsibilities on "assemblies absurd" because there are no more chickens to tease."

"No more chickens to tease."

Literal translations of idiomatic expressions are weird.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Jan 24, 2012 - 11:34am PT

Could we get a more skilled translator in here please.

Climber riot?

Makes me think of the police chief in Young Frankenstein.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 24, 2012 - 11:36am PT

There is no single standard. Every climber hosts double (triple, quadruple, etc.) standards. Its not really something to get all twisted up about. What applies in Patagonia on Cerro Torre doesn't have to apply to El Cap or Squamish and in fact in most cases will not apply.

Its just the way it is. Ethics are inherently local and applying a global (unicorn) standard is a waste of effort.

Climbing ethics as applied in practice are not one-size fits all.

That's right ... but as you tolerate multiple standards, I don't like fundamentalism and arrogance ...

Melissa

Gym climber

berkeley, ca

Jan 24, 2012 - 11:38am PT

Given that you can't scratch yourself on the Nose without holding up another team, having it appear in someone's vacation photo album, and/or becoming part of the high def show at the bridge, it makes me wonder...

If people came to chop summit bolts on the Nose, would the vigilante response happen on route? It kind of makes me laugh to imagine an angry mob pacing 50 ft. above the choppers waiting for them to finish doing their thing.

karodrinker

Trad climber

San Jose, CA

Jan 24, 2012 - 11:48am PT

wow, I had not realized how much Italians love climbing bolt ladders! Psyched for k & k! Great job boys!

mucci

Trad climber

The pitch of Bagalaar above you

Jan 24, 2012 - 12:02pm PT

Kalen-

You have no idea..

Mucci

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 24, 2012 - 12:15pm PT

I want to add a few words ...

Nobody ever mentioned "residents", and I consider Rolo a "local" in Patagonia ... and it's quite evident that he cares a lot about that place ... but this doesn't mean that he has to make of his belief a foundamentalist religion and Patagonia his temple ...

And if we apply his concept of "locals" ... well ... in his 1970 climb, Maestri spent 54 days on Cerro Torre and 28 on the hamac ... in comparison "actual locals" are sissies ... :-)

Alright guys and girls ... I'm going to climb ...

Bye ...

PS. Italians are lazy ... if they would chop the Nose's bolt ladders, they would do it from the top, with a nice american girl ... spending a romantic night on one of those beautiful ledges eating pazza and pizza and doing something else ... ;-)))

Melissa

Gym climber

berkeley, ca

Jan 24, 2012 - 12:20pm PT

Funny you mention this enzolino... I once encountered an Italian party (of two guys) on Camp 6 who had out their pots and stove and were cooking up a meal.

They had hauled the most fabulous leather haul bag...the only one of its kind I've ever seen. They probably had great shoes too, but I didn't look. The bag was quite small, so they didn't bring any sleeping bags, just cooking gear. I think they spent two nights out. They were super nice, and having a great time.

Sorry for the aside, but if we're slinging stereotypes here, I thought this was a propos.

WBraun

climber

Jan 24, 2012 - 12:27pm PT

Pizza eating Italians are going to chop the Nose bolt ladder.

LOL !!!!

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 24, 2012 - 12:33pm PT

and doing something else ... ;-

Eating Pie?
American Pie?

Melissa

Gym climber

berkeley, ca

Jan 24, 2012 - 12:33pm PT

^^Zing! (re: DMT)

Kimbo

Sport climber

seattle

Jan 24, 2012 - 01:07pm PT

The 2007 meet and "democratic vote" was little more than a farce. There was no democracy at work because few, if any, true "local climbers" were present.

why were only a "few, if any, true "local climbers"..." present?

was the meeting not publicized properly?

who were the 40 in attendance?

did some climbers choose not to attend the meeting?

did you or others try to get another meeting together?

why had you chosen not to remove the bolts in the past yourself?

Also, I wonder where were these "self appointed locals" in 2010 when Lama's film crew added a bunch of bolts to "their" "historic route"? I did not see them rioting outside of Lama crew's residence, or taking Heli Putz -the head rigger- to the police, and I certainly did not see them anywhere when two of us went to chop those bolts. Was this lack of involvement on their part some sort of selective "historic preservation" since the Lama bolts would have made the mountain even more accessible?

did anyone object to your removal of the bolts?

i'd surmise that the removal of a 40+ year old route would galvanize a stronger response than adding some bolts that were then removed....

The police played along with the mob and that is quite worrisome.

how many people in this "mob", and who were they?

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 24, 2012 - 01:17pm PT

What do you all say to an ad-hoc SuperTopo poll?
A yea or nay, good or bad, cool or crap, A or B vote as a straw poll.
We could read the pulse of a slice of the climbing community that way.
Without all the inflamed passions that is.

Shall we vote?

WBraun

climber

Jan 24, 2012 - 01:21pm PT

Polls are stupid, stale and bland.

Talking sh!t is where it at ......

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 24, 2012 - 01:23pm PT

Feed Lot Frenzy!
Watch your step.

I wonder how Google will translate that into Italian?

mucci

Trad climber

The pitch of Bagalaar above you

Jan 24, 2012 - 01:35pm PT

Sounds like K+K chopped just enuff bolts to make a sport climber say "Runnout" on his blog after the send.

WBraun

climber

Jan 24, 2012 - 01:37pm PT

Here's some stupid sh!t talking, maybe even some resemblance of a faint reality?

It's all Bush and Cheney's fault. LOL

Those two dumb sh!ts started all these wars, aggressions and problems lately.

People when they get pissed now a days look at America as aggressive azzholes pushing their ideals onto everyone.

Stupid in a way but it still happens when other countries get pissed.

Most people still like Pizza and beer though .......

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 24, 2012 - 01:42pm PT

Was the removal of 100+ likely redundant and unnecessary bolts from a decades old and often repeated route on the most iconoc mountain on earth at least for real climbers with historic significance as a symbol of Hubris Gone Wild a good thing or a bad thing?

No need for threats or lynch mobs.
A simple Yes or No will suffice.

Yes = good, the bolts are gone.

No = bad, they should have been left in place.

murf02

climber

NYC

Jan 24, 2012 - 01:56pm PT

Threads about to go south very fast. I vote for a web cam at the local El Chalten brewery (happily contribute).

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Jan 24, 2012 - 01:57pm PT

I dunno about chopping the Nose.

Apples and oranges.

If the Italians chop the Nose it could mean WAR!
(and we all know how successful they have been at that for the past century!)

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Jan 24, 2012 - 02:02pm PT

You know the crazy thing about posting an idea on this thread is that most people won't even bother to read what you say, then comment as though they have.

I never said that I supported removing the bolts. I simply stated that what you or I have to say about the vanguard has no effect or bearing on the vanguard. None at all. They don't listen to us. And they probably never should, either.

Just as CM didn't ask for our opinion about machine gun bolting the Cerro with a gas powered machine, Kennedy and Co. didn't ask our permission, or the permission of locals, or the Holy Ghost, to "clean up" the mess of 40 years ago.

The rub to some is that a certain (VERY small) percentage of the population is going to operate entirely outside the system - and we simply have to lump it. The arguments, which are often thinly veiled hatred and jealousy, call the vanguard arrogant, selfish, reckless, self-ordained, and so forth, most of which is true in some sense - and also is required to march point, to run for president, to fly a gun ship in Iraq, etc.

Notice also how doomsdayers promise that if the vanguard's unlimited freedom is not checked, "authorities" will step in and forcibly control the vauguard (cutting our own freedoms in the process). Never happen, folks.
This is really just wishful thinking by those who cannot stomach the idea of anyone doing anything with total disregard to what others feel or believe is appropriate. Fact is, even if you gave every ranger in Patagonia an AK47, the vanguard is going to do just as it pleases. Arguments about this being right or wrong or that it must be stopped and that it should never be santioned and that I am extolling the "ethics" of bolt choppers (not true) is totally extraneous and irrelevant to the vanguard's path. The vanguard basically has nothing to do with us. They are a tribe unto themselves, for the time being. It is never sustainable.

Because the vanguard is always so small, their actions - both wildly insane and worthy of our praise - usually prompt sea changes in the existing order. Ergo Kennedy and Maestri are opposite ends of the same column of soldiers - and so long as they march right over us - as they always have - some people are going to feel violated - which is a natural enough emotion, but it will have no bearing whatsoever on the marching soldiers.

So it goes . . . The more we try to control and restrict, the more we try to impose a consensus, to be rational, to play fair, the more the opposite energies will exert themselves in the field of play - of that we may be sure.

JL

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA

Jan 24, 2012 - 02:02pm PT

Recently, upthread, Rolo asks where was the outrage when David Lama bolted Cerro Torre. I found these four threads on SuperTopo, note the number of postings in each thread. Given that info I think we gave David Lama a similar amount of attention as this current event.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1388483/david-lama-and-cerro-torre-again (330 postings)

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1319502/Bolts-chopped-on-Cerro-Torre (170 postings)

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1181099/60-Bolts-drilled-on-Compressor-Route-in-Patagonia (120 postings)

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1320697/Please-contact-Red-Bull-regarding-Cerro-Torre-Travesty (30 postings)

leo Dickinson

Mountain climber

Jan 24, 2012 - 02:03pm PT

Rolo this is very good news - particularly for someone who retains a long history with CT.

For those not then born I will explain.

Back in 1970 I organised an expedition to the SE Ridge. My team was a good one - Eric Jones (who later soloed the Eiger N Face), Cliff Phillips (who soloed the Piz Badille in 2hr35 mins in 1969)- the late Pete Minks (who soled the Walker Spur) and myself had climbed the Eiger N Face and filmed our ascent a year earlier. Swiss climber Hans Peter Tracsel who had climbed the Eiger in both winter & summer and Gordon Hibberd who was on the First Ascent of the Fortress in Chile, joined us.

Decades before the internet was even thought of, rumours were starting to filter through that Italian - Cesare Maestri had drilled his way up the SE Ridge using a compressor and pneumatic drill.

We had no idea what compressor meant. Why would you?

In 1968 Brit climber Pete Crew named the col on the SE arête – the 'Col of Patience' – with him were team mates Dougal Haston, Martin Boysen, Mick Burke and Argentinean - Jose Fonrouge. An all star team of the time.

On the 'Col of Patience' we dug the customary snow cave and waited and... waited. When fine weather came we climbed quickly up the ridge for several pitches to where Martin had dropped his bolt kit from their high point in 1968.

We were greeted by an old rope hanging downwards encased in ice like a giant gaucho’s boleadora. It dangled malevolently above our heads.

To our right we found the start of what became known as the first bolt ladder.

With clouds swirling around I filmed this via ferrate disappearing upwards.

The wall was utterly blank and even with modern climbing techniques I can not imagine this part every being climbed free - but dozens, if not hundreds of bolts were studded across this rising traverse. It was desecration on an industrial scale.

For 30 days the weather kicked in and gave us time to debate our predicament. There was no question that it was ruining our trip.

Do we use the bolts or not? At the time we were mindful of Messner’s “Murder of the Impossible” article on the over reliance of bolts and had not come half way around the world to climb an iron ladder in the sky – at least not with this team.

One day we were joined in our base camp in the forest by an Englishman Richard Cernesky – an Argentinean Peter Skvarca (who made the first ascent of Cerro Lautaro) and intriguingly an older man called Cesarino Fava.

At first the penny did not drop until Richard told me that Fava had been with Toni Egger and Maestri on the first ascent of Cerro Torre back in 1959.

Fava had his own views on the “Compressor” – he thought it was a waste of time but when I asked him about the original Maestri/Egger route from 1959 he clammed up.

“Why does everyone want to know about that climb”?

“Because - if its true, then it rates as one of, if not - the greatest climb of all time,” I replied more in exasperation than expectation.

No more conversation followed.

Maestri led two expeditions and was slow - incredibly slow but meticulously methodical. He helicoptered in a hut that was erected at the bottom of the mountain and air dropped in his supplies and secret weapon.

Now the reason for the slow progress was the weight of gear they were winching up the mountain. They were employing a weapon never before used by man against mountain. Up these precipitous heights, they carried 200 litres of petrol, oil, winches, ropes and a motor compressor – to drive a pneumatic drill. Come on guys this isn't climbing - its scaffolding.

Historians may remember that great "CONQUISTADORS OF THE USELESS
French climber Lionel Terray, who back in 1952 was offered the assistance, on the first ascent of Fitzroy, by President of Argentina Juan Peron - of a helicopter to lift him to the summit.(to save him all the bother of actually climbing)

After our expedition Peter Gillman from the Sunday Times, Ken Wilson - Editor of Mountain Magazine and myself representing the BBC went to interview Maestri in Italy. (See Mountain magazine No 23 pages 30-37 Sept 1972 for the complete interview).

Using Alan Heppenstall as interpreter, I asked Maestri about his two climbs.

“Why the compressor?” I asked.

Maestri told us, “I took it because I calculated I might have to hammer in 1000 bolts. Of course this would have been an endless process by normal means”.

He went on to explain that this decision had not presented him with any philosophical problems:

“I have spent most of my life trying to push forward the limits of climbing and climbing techniques in general. I did this with solo climbing – I have soled Grade 6 routes in both ascent and descent. When all the other expeditions started failing* on the South-East Ridge of Cerro Torre, despite the fact that they all compromised of good climbers, it seemed to me that the route must be impossible by normal means, so I decided bolting would be necessary.”

* all other expeditions? Only the Brit 68 one that I know of? –it seems to be a case of making the story justifying the facts.

Back on the SE Ridge our dilemma continued. The weather was not kind that season and with deep misgivings we climbed the long bolt ladder going up into the mists. We eventually reached the headwall and saw the bolts disappearing upwards towards the summit.

We had had enough. I returned to the UK and made my film for the BBC titled “CERRO TORRE – THE RAPE OF A MOUNTAIN”.

To my complete surprise when we spoke with Maestri, he told us that he had not actually stood on top of the mountain - justifying it by claiming that the top of the headwall was enough and that the summit mushroom would one day blow away as it was not part of the mountain!

After all his efforts – after spending 13 million lire paid for by Atlas Copco makers of his infamous bolt gun – and with expeditions in both summer and winter - he had not actually stood on the summit.

In 1973 Eric Jones, Irishman Mick Coffey and myself crossed the Heilo Continental Ice Cap – made the second ascent of Cerro Lautaro and made the first ascent of another volcano that we named Cerro Mimosa after the ship that brought early Welsh settlers to Patagonia in 1865.

The Ice Cap Western side of Cerro Torre thrusting out of a sea of foam is surely one of the most beautiful sights on planet earth but after spending 54 days on ice and running out of food we ditched our sledges, missed the Pass of the Winds - the exit to the Pampas and went the longer laborious route all the way down the Viedma Glacier to safety, where an asado, gratefully supplied by a local gaucho and a lorry home were our reward.

In 1974 I organised a third trip, this time to Torre Egger the smaller satellite to Cerro Torre named after Toni Egger. We were not successful and changing direction in the last days of the trip climbed the “Innominata” – (literally mountain with no name).

In memory of an Argentinean who had shared out camps earlier in the trip but had one day failed to return – we renamed it Aiguille Rafael.

Earlier that year of 74 we met another Italian expedition led by Casimiro Ferrari. They were attempting Cerro Torre from the western Ice Cap side.

Casimiro had served his apprenticeship with Carlo Mauri and Walter Bonatti a couple of years earlier and was well prepared for the biting winds blasting the Ice Cap. After six weeks of storms, four of the team - Daniele Chiappa, Mario Conti, Casimiro Ferrari, and Pino Negri, reached the summit and made the First Undisputed Ascent of Cerro Torre.

At the Trento film festival in 1976 I met Casimiro Ferrari.

He told me that the ice cap was a desperate place and that just as his team was running out of food, he had discovered two sledges which, on close inspection turned out to be British, and had revealed 15 Mars Bars which in turn, kept his team alive.

Rather embarrassingly I explained that the sledges were mine and that as the Mars Bars had been soaked in petrol they had been inedible.

After a year on the ice cap the petrol had evaporated and the Italians changed their diet to British cuisine.

It’s a lovely thought that in a small way we had assisted in the first ascent of Cerro Torre.

In Trento, Casimiro asked me who I thought had made the first ascent of Cerro Torre, I stared at him and said, “I am looking at him”.

But what a mess Maestri left.

A highly questionable first ascent in 59 which few now believe stands up to scrutiny since Rolando Garibotti, Ermanno Salvaterra, and Alessandro Beltrami climbed the same route as described by Maestri but found no evidence of earlier passage.

Then the ridiculous compressor ‘near miss’ route of 1970 which proved nothing.

But perhaps the most saddest piece of Maestri’s legacy is - denying his fellow Italians their rightful place in history.

Now that this ridiculous via ferrate has been removed, an ascent of Cerro Torre will have meaning once more.

It will take its rightful place as one of the world’s most inaccessible summits.

Please let no one put back the bolts.

Leo Dickinson Jan 2012

WBraun

climber

Jan 24, 2012 - 02:07pm PT

STFU Hiker.

We're busy here changing history .....

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Jan 24, 2012 - 02:08pm PT

Not so John.

We all breath the same air and drink the same water.

Our actions DO have consequences, often especially so for the vanguard.

Is this a reversal of the WoS story?
Whatever.
Tongues will be wagging on this for decades at the least, but a consensus will never be reached.

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 24, 2012 - 02:10pm PT

Wow, Leo Dickinson that is an amazing post and story.

it's nice to hear from climbers such as yourself who were actually there during that time period and right in the center of the action.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 24, 2012 - 02:19pm PT

Mr Dickenson, sir that was one of the best post SuperTopo has ever had.
I remember hearing and reading of you crazy ass Brits patagonian adventures in slack jawed amazement. Much respect and thank you for your absolutely pertinent input.

Gene

climber

Jan 24, 2012 - 02:28pm PT

This links to an Alpinist article that includes photos of and by Leo Dickinson as well as his comments on CT.
http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web10s/newswire-david-lama-compressor-bolts

Welcome, Mr. Dickinson. Is your film Cerro Torre—The Rape of a Mountain available?

g

Kimbo

Trad climber

seattle

Jan 24, 2012 - 02:32pm PT

You know the crazy thing about posting an idea on this thread is that most people won't even bother to read what you say, then comment as though they have.

Hey Largo, i did post a reply to your ideas on the "vanguard" a few pages back. perhaps you didn't see it, or wished not to comment.

either way, yes at times forums tend to operate in the way you describe. or people don't even read other's comments, just wanting to hear their own opinions.

much as in "real life" sometimes!

Sam Lightner, Jr

Social climber

Jan 24, 2012 - 02:58pm PT

Thank you Mr. Dickinson... that tells us a lot.

Gene

climber

Jan 24, 2012 - 03:04pm PT

fòradaiball = Juan de Fuca (RIP)?

nature

climber

Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...

Jan 24, 2012 - 03:06pm PT

It's too bad the bunched up panty phenomena is less about the attitude Leo Dickinson espouses and more about the lynch mob mentality.

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Jan 24, 2012 - 03:09pm PT

Dickinson is telling the story I thought every climber in the Englishspeaking world knew very well. Thanks!

There is no necessary link from Dickinson's story to the current chopping though. Concerning the current chopping the "climbing community" has to make up "it's ethical mind" once more.

MH2

climber

Jan 24, 2012 - 03:18pm PT

A thank you to Leo Dickinson.

TwistedCrank

climber

Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom

Jan 24, 2012 - 03:45pm PT

yankeepeerla

WTF?

la vostra ironia scivola sul piano inclinato della mia indifferenza, yankeepeerla

translates to

The irony of your slides on the inclined plane of my indifference, yankeepeerla

A piece of paper is an ink-lined plane.
An inclined plane is a slope up.
A slow pup is a lazy dog.

Ipso facto, a piece of paper is a lazy dog.

just sayin

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Jan 24, 2012 - 03:45pm PT

Dingus: Read "has to" descriptively and not normatively. Used normatively: Persons in this thread has mentioned chopping and The Nose. And both you and I know that the Italians are free to do whatever they want if they have the moral courage and are willing to take the blame, the threats and the possible legal consequences. As I see it this discussion is about the future and not about the past.

Ghost

climber

A long way from where I started

Jan 24, 2012 - 03:48pm PT

Dickinson is telling the story I thought every climber in the Englishspeaking world knew very well. Thanks!

Even a quick look at this thread makes it clear that hardly anyone knows the story Leo told.

The general assumption seems to be that Maestri went to Patagonia, put up a route on CT which, while it seems sort of overbolted, is part of history, so why would anyone chop it?

In fact, Maestri went back to Patagonia because he was enraged that people would doubt his claimed (but now disproven) earlier ascent, and drilled that line as a way of telling the entire climbing world to f*#k off. It was a deliberate insult, made by a man now generally agreed to have lied about his earlier climb.

Why anyone would see it as something worth preserving is baffling.

Gene

climber

Jan 24, 2012 - 03:52pm PT

+1
Said line never completed by Maestri, who never summited Cerro Torre, which makes the status of the CR as a historical shrine of some sort even stranger.

nature

climber

Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...

Jan 24, 2012 - 04:03pm PT

Why anyone would see it as something worth preserving is baffling.

+1

Again, it's more about people having their panties in a bunch and less about what Mr. Dickinson has to say.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 24, 2012 - 04:27pm PT

I don't want to start a process again on the '59 Egger Maestri route but there are several things that don't make so much sense to me ...
A. Maestri is described as a "huge-ego" climber ... so why he credited the lead of the climb of the first ascent of Cerro Torre to Toni Egger?
B. 60 bolts are mentioned ... but in this interview he didn't say they used so many bolts ...
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/0604/whats_new/cesare-maestri.html
C. He was found half dead on the Cerro Torre' glacier ... how can people pretend he can remember precise details of his experience after such a traumatic event where he also lost a partner and a friend?
I have another comment ... I read positive comments of respect towards Maestri's achievement from climbers of the caliber of Hans Kammerlander, Reihnard Karl, Simone Moro, etc on the Compressor route ... and we read here other more positive accounts beside that of Leo Dickinson ...
My conclusion is that the opinion on the Compressor route is disputable, and two boys don't have the right to do what they did just because they summited the mountain ...
It's also interesting that the two most important italian forum strongly condemn the action of K&K ... and I wonder why these differences between american and italians ... and I don't believe that the reason is Maestri's nationality (Ferrari or Salvaterra are italian as well) ... besides the stories of Garibotti and Dickinson, have you ever read Maestri's books?

PS. Melissa ... where are you? Would you like to spend a romantic night with me on one of the Nose's ledges? You can choose which one but ... the Sickle is a little too crowded (I like intimacy) and the Dolt Tower a little bit too smelly ... I would suggest El Cap Towe ... very flat and comfortable ... ;-)

ionlyski

Trad climber

Kalispell, Montana

Jan 24, 2012 - 04:48pm PT

Nope, the opinion on the compressor route is not disputable. Too far of a stretch to call it climbing.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 24, 2012 - 04:49pm PT

Rolo, thanks for keeping us informed about this...

It's hard to argue with such a remarkable and accomplished climber.
A Man who not only has a top flight web site.
But....
A candy loved around the world.

ionlyski

Trad climber

Kalispell, Montana

Jan 24, 2012 - 04:50pm PT

two boys don't have the right to do what they did just because they summited the mountain ...

They didn't do what they did because the summited, they chopped the bolts because they knew they didn't belong on that beautiful mountain.

nature

climber

Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...

Jan 24, 2012 - 04:53pm PT

you're a dick if you call them boys.

edit: ionlyski I realize you did knot.

ionlyski

Trad climber

Kalispell, Montana

Jan 24, 2012 - 04:58pm PT

Not I. upthread

Kimbo

Trad climber

seattle

Jan 24, 2012 - 05:02pm PT

In fact, Maestri went back to Patagonia because he was enraged that people would doubt his claimed (but now disproven) earlier ascent, and drilled that line as a way of telling the entire climbing world to f*#k off. It was a deliberate insult, made by a man now generally agreed to have lied about his earlier climb.

hmmm not sure you or anybody is in a position to know exactly what maestri's motivations were.

ALPINEMAN

Trad climber

bogota

Jan 24, 2012 - 05:05pm PT

Maestri was a genius not to go on top in 1970, but this cannot understand nerds

Ghost

climber

A long way from where I started

Jan 24, 2012 - 05:07pm PT

hmmm not sure you or anybody is in a position to know exactly what maestri's motivations were.

To some extent that is true. But he left a lot clues lying about that would make one believe the his prime motive was "I'll show those as#@&%es!"

Given his history of bold, cutting-edge climbing, and his obvious anger at the doubters, it's difficult to believe he thought that hauling a gas-powered compressor up CT to bolt his way to the top (or almost to the top) was the next logical step in alpinism.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 24, 2012 - 05:09pm PT

this cannot understand nerds

Exactly! We agree. :)

Who can understand these.

When we respond with these.

And yet secretly know these are the most correct.

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Jan 24, 2012 - 05:10pm PT

fòradaiball,

do better.

P.S. The rain is token mouse, so back up house nighttime in the your hair.

Kimbo

Trad climber

seattle

Jan 24, 2012 - 05:13pm PT

To some extent that is true. But he left a lot clues lying about that would make one believe the his prime motive was "I'll show those as#@&%es!"

yes, one might surmise that, but i really believe that whatever one's predilection is, that's the way one will interpret the limited data. or so it seems to be....

remember that you are trying to justify the (impulsive) removal of these bolts, based on your personal interpretation of maestri's motives- a rather tenuous approach i think.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 24, 2012 - 05:20pm PT

So by the way is your interpretation of Kruk & Kennedy's motivations.

Hawkeye

climber

State of Mine

Jan 24, 2012 - 05:22pm PT

rolo seems like a very standup guy and definiteyl a world class climber....but why didnt he remove the bolts himself? i dont get it...

if you are going to [preach to everyone about something that is meaningless when compared to action....

Gene

climber

Jan 24, 2012 - 05:23pm PT

If Maestri and Egger had climbed Cerro Torre in 1959 in the purest of style, why would Maestri return to Cerro Torre and use piston-driven bolts in 1970, stop a pitch short of the summit mushrooms, and leave the compressor on the mountain?

ALPINEMAN

Trad climber

bogota

Jan 24, 2012 - 05:25pm PT

Gene Gnocchi wrote:

If Maestri and Egger had climbed Cerro Torre in 1959 in the purest of style, why would Maestri need to return to Cerro Torre and use piston-driven bolts in 1970, stop a pitch short of the summit mushrooms, and leave the compressor on the mountain?

It is difficult to understand for a mentality so obtuse as your American

oh yeah!

Kimbo

Trad climber

seattle

Jan 24, 2012 - 05:27pm PT

So by the way is your interpretation of Kruk & Kennedy's motivations.

remind me what i said about their motivations? i honestly can't recall.

but: to me their motivations matter little, since i have been basing my opinion more or less on the following:

1. the length that the route had been there;

2. the number of people who enjoyed the route (and were perhaps enroute to do it);

3. the fact that the route in no way served as a precedent for similar approaches;

4. the overwhelming support for keeping the route intact at the only meeting anyone bothered to organize;

5. the fact that two kids from north america decided, by themselves (spontaneously?), to remove the route.

i know i can come up with more list items, but i think that's a fair representation of my feelings at this point....

ALPINEMAN

Trad climber

bogota

Jan 24, 2012 - 05:27pm PT

yes, exactly

Kimbo

Trad climber

seattle

Jan 24, 2012 - 05:30pm PT

rolo seems like a very standup guy and definiteyl a world class climber....but why didnt he remove the bolts himself? i dont get it...

i asked him this in an earlier post (along with some other questions) and i hope he responds. i am very curious as to his reasoning, since he seems to feel so very strongly about the bolts.

Ghost

climber

A long way from where I started

Jan 24, 2012 - 05:33pm PT

remember that you are trying to justify the (impulsive) removal of these bolts, based on your personal interpretation of maestri's motives- a rather tenuous approach i think.

No, I'm not trying to justify the removal of those bolts. It doesn't bother me that the two climbers took some of them out, but saying that I am happy about it does not justify it.

My concern is only to illuminate the fact that the Compressor Route is fundamentally different from something like the Grand Wall at Squamish -- which many people are bringing up as another example of overbolting. That climb was put up using far more bolts than anyone would put in today, but they were not put in as a deliberate slap in the face to the climbing world.

I'm firmly in the Largo/Dingus camp on this one. That is, trying to "justify" the removal is a waste of time. Some climbers are pleased at what happened, some are outraged. But justify? Nope. Not me.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 24, 2012 - 05:33pm PT

Hawkeye, Rolo has been pretty occupied with some really remarkable significant new routes. You know, real climbs.

ALPINEMAN, try US please.
Enlighten our Obtuse American Mentality

ALPINEMAN

Trad climber

bogota

Jan 24, 2012 - 05:37pm PT

ok filo

ALPINEMAN

Trad climber

bogota

Jan 24, 2012 - 05:37pm PT

美国迪克头

Hawkeye

climber

State of Mine

Jan 24, 2012 - 05:43pm PT

yes philo, i am well aware.

but pontification with no action = BS.

mike m

Trad climber

black hills

Jan 24, 2012 - 05:51pm PT

Question: How did Maestri get to work?

Answer:In a car, it had airconditioning too.

ALPINEMAN

Trad climber

bogota

Jan 24, 2012 - 05:54pm PT

without Maestri El Chalten would not have existed

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 24, 2012 - 06:15pm PT

ALPINEMAN, you got it wrong 美国迪克头 is not me it's the LEB. Picture to prove it.

My Translatermagizmo works funny this one; solo i tonti non si accorgono che quei chiodi non centrano con la via di Maestri, svegliatevi, quelli sono chiodi inox lo vede anche un bambino..came out like this...

only the accounts do not realize that those nails are missing because of the Masters, wake up, those are steel nails sees a child

And that's cool with me.

Gene

climber

Jan 24, 2012 - 06:29pm PT

le favole vanno bene per addormentarsi la sera

means

fairy tales are good for falling asleep at night

We agree. You keep yours and I'll keep mine.

Cheers,

g

The Larry

climber

Moab, UT

Jan 24, 2012 - 06:34pm PT

Whya you gotta choppa the bolts. Excusa me for a moment...

Hey ladies, How you doin'?

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 24, 2012 - 06:37pm PT

ci sono delle regole, loro le conoscevano e le hanno volute trasgredire, ora la gente si incazza, e può darsi che gliela facciano anche pagare, non ci troverei niente di strano, se lo meritano eccome

Googlates to

there are rules, they knew and they wanted to transgress, now people are pissed, and maybe even pay to do it to him, we would find nothing wrong, they deserve it all right

That sounds vaguely of threat with inference of a contract to harm.
Foolish words.

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Jan 24, 2012 - 06:45pm PT

Wow - great post from Leo Dickenson. Welcome to McTopo, eh? I laughed out loud at the petrol-soaked Mars bars story.

But I am still pissing myself laughing at Enzo hitting on Melissa! I look forward to what will doubtlessly be her warm and enthusiastic response.

Cheers,
Pete

My hovercraft is full of eels.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Jan 24, 2012 - 06:54pm PT

Ho man!

Putting contracts out on K&K?

Well, at least they know what they are not good at,..

Gene

climber

Jan 24, 2012 - 06:56pm PT

fòradaiball,

Do you believe Maestri ever reached the top of Cerro Torre? In 1959? In 1970?

g

The cad

climber

Does it matter, really?!?

Jan 24, 2012 - 07:16pm PT

A bolted 5.11+ and A2 variation doesn't look anything historical, IMVHO.
Good effort however for Kennedy and Kruk.

Chopping Maestri's bolts on rappel? Gross.
(yes, what Maestri did is gross too)

Now the two guys will be known as "the ones who chopped the Compressor Route": methinks there are better things to be remembered for.
Bummer for them.

Oh, and those bolts belong to Maestri, so I guess they should be returned to him (unfortunately it seems they have been confiscated by local police...).

Just my two pennies.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jan 24, 2012 - 07:17pm PT

Would it be useful, or a waste of time, to scan and post the articles from Mountain that Leo Dickinson and others have referred to? They are the foundation for the present debate. I may be able to make time to do this, but don't know if it would be worth the bother. It would be a lot of work. The articles:

Mountain 11 - September 1970

Cerro Torre: The West Face (Carlo Mauri, 8 pages)

Mountain 16 - July 1971

The South-East Ridge of Cerro Torre (Cesare Maestri, 3 pages)

Mountain 23 - September 1972

Cerro Torre: A Mountain Desecrated! (7 pages)
Round Eleven on Cerro Torre (Leo Dickinson, 3 pages)
Interview: Cesare Maestri (7 pages)

Mountain 31 - January 1974

Blowing in the Wind (Leo Dickinson, 8 pages) - the story of their traverse of the Patagonian icecap

Mountain 38 - September 1974

Cerro Torre Climbed! (Casimiro Ferrari, 4 pages)

Mountain 42 - March 1975

Further Thoughts on the Cerro Torre Problem (Heptonstall,6 pages)

Leo: If these are scanned and posted, do you have any way to check with Ken Wilson as to whether that would be OK?

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 24, 2012 - 07:21pm PT

800 posts of dramatainment. Rolo see what you've done.

nature

climber

Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...

Jan 24, 2012 - 07:23pm PT

what's really dramataining is bunched up Italian panties are so much less appealing than the standard Taco panties we are so use to.

they are just too.... little...

labrat

Trad climber

Nevada City, CA

Jan 24, 2012 - 07:25pm PT

I would like to read the articles MH.....If you get permission and have time :-)

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 24, 2012 - 07:28pm PT

they are just too.... little...

Spaghetti strap speedos,
No room for the lettuce and beans of a good Taco.
Just the CHEESE.
And some hot sauce.

nature

climber

Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...

Jan 24, 2012 - 08:03pm PT

not much left to bunch.... yikes!

nature

climber

Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...

Jan 24, 2012 - 08:16pm PT

and who do you think will win the GOP primary?

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 24, 2012 - 08:19pm PT

And is LEB really 美国迪克头?

Gene

climber

Jan 24, 2012 - 08:22pm PT

4me: affanculo tutti i politici

We agree again. Cheers!!!!!

g

nature

climber

Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...

Jan 24, 2012 - 08:23pm PT

perch ain't very good eatin'

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 24, 2012 - 09:57pm PT

Hey if Y'all are so concerned about the rights of local Argentines why aren't you posting in Spanish?

nick d

Trad climber

Jan 24, 2012 - 10:14pm PT

Polls are stupid, stale and bland.

Talking sh!t is where it at ......

That's bull Werner!

Throwing down in the parking lot is where it's at!!!!
Watch out for that wicked right hook baby!!!666!!!

Nick Danger...throwin down for freedom, justice and the Argentinian way!

Studly

Trad climber

Jan 24, 2012 - 10:34pm PT

The Leo Dickinson post was awesome. I can see both sides, and who is to say who is right and who is wrong.

Hummerchine

Trad climber

East Wenatchee, WA

Jan 24, 2012 - 10:52pm PT

Alright, I admit...I'm confused.

I think it's insanely cool that Italians are posting...in Italian!

But I don't get it. How do they know what to post unless they speak English and can understand the previous posts written in English?

And if they understand English, why are they posting in Italian on an Engish website where almost no one will understand what they have written?

Wade Icey

Trad climber

www.alohashirtrescue.com

Jan 24, 2012 - 10:55pm PT

If they post in English almost no one will understand what they have written.

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Jan 24, 2012 - 11:25pm PT

This thread should have ended with Leo Dickenson's post, which says it all.

James

climber

My twin brother's laundry room

Jan 24, 2012 - 11:29pm PT

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Hey it's Hayden...or is that Kruk?

bmacd

Mountain climber

100% Canadian

Jan 24, 2012 - 11:54pm PT

This thread should have ended with Leo Dickenson's post, which says it all.

Yes please ... save these Italian morons from further self humiliation, stop responding to them. the opportunity for great discussion has long since past and been wasted

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Jan 24, 2012 - 11:56pm PT

Time is marching on...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdIRrmNN_CQ

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 25, 2012 - 12:04am PT

This thread brought Leo Dickenson to post, and that says it all.

mike m

Trad climber

black hills

Jan 25, 2012 - 12:06am PT

What the hell is wrong with people? James I hope the kids in that video are sitting in jail right now.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 25, 2012 - 01:07am PT

It seems strange to me that the pictures of the bolt lines and clusters wouldn't immediately make the whole affair crystal clear to anyone who even glances at them, but if you're still confused after Leo's post, then you probably aren't going to 'get it' no matter how many posts this stretches out to.

WBraun

climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 01:17am PT

Healy

Sometimes you're just cold stone.

Maestri's epics on the Torre represents a mad passion, an insanity, an intense romantic affair, it's a huge part of "LIFE"
played out on the grand scale, that's bigger than him, that's not stale, bland, and boiled down to just mere hardware.

Right or wrong in the eyes of us mere mortals we miss this so many times .....

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 25, 2012 - 01:28am PT

Which Googlates as

typical phrase of those who have no more arguments to defend its case, or that has no more excuses to defend their mistakes

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 25, 2012 - 01:38am PT

They are still pissed that the Indians discovered Columbus.
He was also lost you know.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 25, 2012 - 01:45am PT

Which google translate suggests says this.

and is not to be paiazòt from zirco, desmisiete

OK, sure. Would you like fries with that?

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 25, 2012 - 01:55am PT

It's a tough job but some body has to do it.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 25, 2012 - 02:06am PT

Werner: Healy Sometimes you're just cold stone.

Maestri's epics on the Torre represents a mad passion, an insanity, an intense romantic affair, it's a huge part of "LIFE" played out on the grand scale, that's bigger than him, that's not stale, bland, and boiled down to just mere hardware.

Most guys just go get drunk, get laid and call it good when so suffering - not contact Atlas-Copco and arrange to airlift a gas station to the end of the earth in order to drill a thousand bolts.

[ Ok, ok - truth be told - I did call Sears about a compressor in '76 while planning a go at Asgard, but in the end I couldn't afford the extra dogs it would have taken... ]

Clint Cummins

Trad climber

SF Bay area, CA

Jan 25, 2012 - 02:09am PT

Kimbo wrote:

hmmm not sure you or anybody is in a position to know exactly what maestri's motivations were.

I strongly agree that motivations are difficult to assess,
so we should not trust our judgment of them.
It takes very strong evidence to prove a motivation,
such as a direct statement from the person.

I haven't read Maestri's books or interviews,
so I don't know what he may have stated.
While I don't like what he did,
and it sounds like he was not a very nice guy,
and he has that tragic history with the mountain,
I am not going to make a big guess on his exact motivations.

The same applies to other judgements people have made in this thread,
such as the motivations of Kruk and Kennedy.
(Somebody thought the chopping was a statement about how they were better
climbers than Maestri, for example.
I don't see much proof for that, and I think there are better explanations).
Or the motivations of Garibotti
(Somebody said he is motivated by a big ego.
He is definitely researching history.
I don't see how a big ego is required.).

The actions of a person are what matters;
their motivation is of second order,
unless they are still active and you want to predict what they will do next.

Ditto for internet discussions - what the person said is first,
why they said it is second order and you could easily be wrong trying to guess it.

Hummerchine

Trad climber

East Wenatchee, WA

Jan 25, 2012 - 02:21am PT

Ahhhhhhh

Google Translate....cool....

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 25, 2012 - 02:33am PT

First off, Rolo is not a man of aggressive ego. He is a quiet and humble man of high intellect, who is also one of the finest alpinists in the world today.
Secondly, according to friends who spent time with K&K, Hayden is extremely well versed on the history and significance of Patagonian climbing.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 25, 2012 - 02:46am PT

More bolts, need more bolts.
And cow bell.

Fish Boy

Trad climber

Vancouver

Jan 25, 2012 - 03:31am PT

I think Perry's layback isn't a testament to anything, it's just climbing over clipping.....

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:27am PT

From what I read about ethics and history I can see that there is not so much awareness of the style evolution in the Alps and especially in Dolomites. It's something I've written in the UK forum but I'll repeat it here.

Point one. The apex of Cesare Maestri's activity was in the fifties an sixties in the Dolomites. After most of the natural lines were climbed, in the fifties a new climbing paradigm started to take place. The best route should be a straight line from the bottom to the top of the mountain. These routes were called Direttissima or Superdirettissima and were characterized by bolt ladders placed in smooth or super-overhanging routes. Climbers were exploring a new style, which was starting to decay in late sixties. Who contributed to the decadence of this style was the Reinhold Messner's manifesto "The murder of the impossible" published in 1965 but translated in english in 1971 (so I wonder how Leo Dickinson could have read it in '68/'69). Nevertheless, Maestri, who was an extraordinary rock climber, utilized also this style as a son his time. Often, the number of bolts or the number of nights spent in the mountain were a measure of the challenging character of the route.
This style was explored especially in Dolomites, where natural lines were extremely few, but the use of the bolt was criticized elsewhere (for example by Bonatti et al in the Western Alps), where there were still plenty of routes protectable without bolts.

So, this is the historical context when Maestri lived. We may argue that the Compressor route was unacceptable, but I believe that at posteriori is too easy to express this criticism. The Compressor route was condemned by british, americans and some italians, but to label Maestri's bolts as insane, when his ethical heritage was characterized by the presence of bolt ladders is, in my opinion, unfair and partly due to ignorance. Didn't Harding place a lot of bolts and a couple of bolt Ladders on El Cap (which someone compared to CT as a Valley crag) in 1958? Should we be more tolerant if somebody did it with more bolts almost ten years later in and extreme, larger and wilder wall like Cerro Torre? It may be argued that he used the compressor, and here we come to point two.

Point two. Maestri was extremely angry after climbers started to doubt about his '59 ascent, where he lost a friend and he almost died. He wanted to prove to the world that nothing is impossible and to show that he wanted to use all means he knew. And by "all means" it must be included the "bolt ladders" ethic experienced in Dolomite. But he knew that to witness again an extraordinary weather condition like in 1959, was extremely improbable. He knew that he was not a good ice climber like Egger. He knew that granite is extremely hard to place bolts. He knew how terrific is Cerro Torre and, furhermore, the company Atlas Copco was enthusiastic to sponsor his expedition if they used their compressor. It was an early example of sponsorship and marketing. All these reasons convinced him to force a new route on a virgin line. We may like it. We may dislike it. But people sometime are extravagant and this happened more than 40 years ago. I'm not surprised of Leo Dickinson's words about Maestri's route. Although the comparison is not appropriate, I don't think Robbins had soft opinions about Harding. When people have different views, it's easy they see everything concerning a rival in a negative perspective.

Point three. I don't know if Garibotti or Maestri were wrong in their statements. I myself barely remember what I put in my new short routes. So, we cannot pretend that human memory is an exact science after someone experiences traumatic and fatal events, like it happened to Maestri. When I read in Garibotti's document "this description is too vague to be valuated seriously, and yet it is a good example of the lack of detail given by Maestri" I just laugh and I start to believe that Garibotti is acting in bad faith.

Point four. Motivations are important. Because they become a paradigm and a platform for others to act in future. And I'm not happy that two chaps decide to chop a controversial - but in my opinion historical - route, just because they decided it in the summit. I strongly believe that the Compressor route's destiny deserves a better and a broader agreement.

Point Five. Rolando Garibotti is an excellent and incredible climber. There's not doubt about it. His Towers traverse was a very impressive achievement for me. But I like to see human beings in a larger picture and perspective. Maybe I'm wrong, but my idea of his arrogant attitude grew stronger and stronger with time. First for his despectful and unfair campaign against Maestri (who now is an over 80 man, who fought for his life against cancer), then with his historical revisionism, then with his obsessive and pedantic ethic where if you show a picture in a storm where the summit is barely visible, this is not a proof of the ascent. Etcetera etcetera. Is this real alpinism? Do climbers need a notarial deed or a youtube video to show they did something? This is what I really consider insane, and not Maestri's bolts!!!

Alright ...
I have to work now ... I guess you guys are sleeping now ... bye ...

Stambecco

Trad climber

italy

Jan 25, 2012 - 07:23am PT

it could be wrong, it could be right: now Cerro Torre is a challenging mountain again, people will not be able to use the Via Ferrata any more. The compressor is still there, and I would place new bolts to be sure it stays there for the future in memory of Maestri and his job.

ALPINEMAN

Trad climber

bogota

Jan 25, 2012 - 07:42am PT

Stambecco I remember you: there are already the new bolts, 4 by Salvaterra and 1 by Kruk

Only in the variant... but in the same SE ridge

Stambecco

Trad climber

italy

Jan 25, 2012 - 08:20am PT

I meant new bolts for the compressor, not for the route!

ALPINEMAN

Trad climber

bogota

Jan 25, 2012 - 08:34am PT

tell me, you don't want the bolts of the compressor route but you accept the bolt of 40 years after nearby?

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 25, 2012 - 08:47am PT

enzolino: ...

Short of Werner's insanity defense, that would be as good a five point apology as any, if it weren't for the bolts themselves giving testimony to the whole sorry spectacle.

Stambecco

Trad climber

italy

Jan 25, 2012 - 08:49am PT

that is something different (and maybe I agree with you), but I did not say anything else but what I said.

and there are 5 new bolts, not a via ferrata. I'm not saying that rolo is a nice guy or that what he says is the holy bible, or salvaterra or whoever. I say I'm happy about what the k&k did. That's all.

New Age II

climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 08:55am PT

K & K are two losers. They have not released the route of the compressor, so they have no right to unrivet.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Jan 25, 2012 - 09:36am PT

@Bruce Kay

Foraidaball, You didn't answer my question. What is your stance on Halibut?

he can't: he says he's ben banned from SuperTopo...

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Jan 25, 2012 - 10:06am PT

Member profile information for fòradaiball is shown below. This member's account has been deactivated.

Confirmed. Thank you holy admin!

All that barking and gasping made it extremely difficult to hear what anyone was saying. Dude pretty much singlehandedly broke this discussion.

Less attack dog, more Leo Dickenson please. Sucks that one must wade through so much waste to find a few diamonds among the posts. Dickenson's in particular is one that should be in the ST hall of fame.

New Age II

climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 10:15am PT

Leo Dickinson was unable to make even the compressor route .... "Via Ferrata"

The cad

climber

Does it matter, really?!?

Jan 25, 2012 - 10:23am PT

Snorky:

Less attack dog, more Leo Dickenson please. Sucks that one must wade through so much waste to find a few diamonds among the posts. Dickenson's in particular is one that should be in the ST hall of fame.

If Leo Dickinson is so important to you, then at least try to type his name correctly :)

Chris McNamara

SuperTopo staff member

Jan 25, 2012 - 10:50am PT

Since this thread now has 875+ posts (and not everyone may want to read all of them), I thought I would point out what I think is one of the most important posts in the thread (that some people might have missed) by Leo Dickinson http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1725375&tn=720

It's awesome to have someone who was there at the time of the Cerro Torre FA's posting on the forum!

rolo

climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 25, 2012 - 10:59am PT

in case it has not been posted already:

From Claude Gardien, the editor of Vertical Magazine in France
original link here

http://www.pioletsdor.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=216%3Aarete-se-du-cerro-torre-&catid=56%3Aactu-montagne&Itemid=1&lang=en

SE Ridge of Cerro Torre : Compressor Route « by fair means »

Cerro TorreThe « fair means » ascent of Cerro Torre’s SE ridge by Hayden Kennedy and Jason Kruk put an end to a quest that has lasted for many years. The world of alpinism has long understood that it was possible to climb this ridge without using the bolts that Cesare Maestri and his team had placed in 1970. We still don’t know much about what difficulty the rope team had to overcome on this ascent - most likely 5.11+/A2, using 5 bolts in the process – but the impact of their success doesn’t lie with the technical level achieved.

This ascent opens a whole new page on the Cerro Torre history. In 1970, Cesare Maestri, in response to those who challenged his 1959 ascent, decided to prove his good faith by doing another first ascent on this mountain, considered one of the most beautiful in the world. His « success » could now be questioned by all, since he was able to climb the ridge (without touching the summit, « ephemeral » mushroom, according to him) placing a huge number of bolts along the way with an enormous compressor that he eventually abandoned on the wall. The amount of gear he used and moreover, the way he used it were equally shocking: amongst other things, bolts were placed alongside perfect cracks that could have taken natural gear.

The history of the Cerro Torre had started badly: Maestri had claimed its first ascent, without his team mate Toni Egger to back his story, since he had disappeared on the mountain. But Maestri didn’t manage to convince many people of his success and any remaining doubts were laid to rest with the successful ascent of this “route” by Alessandro Beltrami, Rolando Garibotti and Ermanno Salvaterra in 2006. The whole story now shines as just a big waste – for the sport, the ethic, the environment and humanity.

Let’s imagine for a second that Maestri hadn’t bolted the ridge. The first ascent would have been done in 2012. The 1970 ascent has obliterated part of the future of alpinism. It took away from the opportunity for future generations of alpinists to try a clean, virgin line, devoid of any industrial waste.

The Cerro Torre case is no doubt unique, but other faces were climbed too soon, with the wrong means. Of course, they remain to be climbed by fair means. But they regrettably lost part of their virginity that made them so fascinating. They often remain littered with gear left in place. They were climbed without real desire, without respect, with the only goal being to satisfy an ambition.

If the Cerro Torre exemple could temper the enthusiasm of alpinists in a rush to come to terms with a mountain that is too hard for them, this sad story will at least have served this purpose.

Claude GARDIEN

The cad

climber

Does it matter, really?!?

Jan 25, 2012 - 11:02am PT

Here is a today's letter from Mariana Fava, Cesarino Fava's daughter.
(in Spanish)

El Chaltén, 25 de febrero 2012

En respuesta a la entrevista realizada a los 4 escaladores [Rolando Garibotti, Colin Haley, Jason Kruk, Hayden Kennedy] en La Cachaña:
Un acto de esta calaña no tiene defensa alguna, además creo que usaron argumentos absolutamente absurdos y sin fundamento alguno para justificarse.
NO ES EN ARGENTINA donde se piden visas, tarjeta verde, pasaporte de la comunidad, carta de invitación de algún familiar, tarjeta de crédito o efectivo, contrato de trabajo o permisos para poder entrar, eso pasa en países como Australia, Canadá, Estados Unidos, España, "donde probablemente te reciban bien", eso sí, una vez que logres entrar.
Además me parece que dos personas como ustedes, que desde que llegaron a este pueblo fueron bien recibidos, donde muchos de los jóvenes los toman como referentes del alpinismo, no hacía falta la agresión gratuita a toda la comunidad de El Chaltén diciendo que no tiene derecho a opinar porque "no pisa la montaña", suele pasar que esa gente cultiva mucho respeto por la montaña, incluso desde el pueblo; o que la reacción en defensa del acto cometido "los sorprende" o "roza la discriminación" (DISCRIMINAR: Separar, distinguir, diferenciar. Dar trato de inferioridad a una persona o colectividad por motivos raciales, políticos, religiosos, etc.).
Además de sorprenderme que hayan caído en la escualidez de defenderse de un acto de vandalismo (VANDALISMO: inclinación a destruir y devastar sin consideración y respeto a los demás) como el realizado sobre la vía del compresor usando la victimización, esto me deja una certeza: son prepotentes y mal educados. No sirve de nada que anden por el pueblo con sonrisas satisfechas, como si hubiesen salvado una vida. Deberían sentir vergüenza.
Además me pregunto:
Que pasaría si alguien pintara con aerosol el cuadro de la Gioconda porque no le gusta su sonrisa?
Que pasaría si un turista llegara a Chaltén viera algo que no le gusta y simplemente lo elimina?
Que pasaría si un argentino sacara clavos puestos hace más de 40 años de una pared en USA????????
Me parece que sería mejor predicar ejemplos de respeto a los nuevos escaladores, en lugar de darles ejemplos de prepotencia e incoherencia.
Vivir coherentemente significa actuar como se habla, hablar como se piensa y pensar con sentido común y con el corazón si queremos ponernos románticos, créanme que vale la pena.
Quiero decir que es inútil sacar clavos con una mano y con la otra tirar garrafas de gas desde la cumbre.
Deberían dejar las utopías de lado, porque aunque crean que "las montañas son de todos", lamento comunicarles que éstas SON BIEN ARGENTINAS.
No se equivoquen que ser bien recibidos no es lo mismo que ser considerados locales.
Y, por último, antes de hablar de humildad habría que practicarla.

Sin saludos cordiales,
Mariana Fava.

New Age II

climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 11:08am PT

@ ROLO ...
Listen to the words of David Lama?

janeclimber

Ice climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 11:13am PT

Many thanks to Leo for giving an objective recount in the midst of the heated debate.

PeteC

climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 11:15am PT

Right or wrong, this thread makes for great reading...I can't decide what was more entertaining-- Leo Dickensons fantastic contribution to the debate, or the Italian guys being asked if they had caught any trout lately...

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 25, 2012 - 11:36am PT

Let’s imagine for a second that Maestri hadn’t bolted the ridge. The first ascent would have been done in 2012. The 1970 ascent has obliterated part of the future of alpinism. It took away from the opportunity for future generations of alpinists to try a clean, virgin line, devoid of any industrial waste.

Claude Garden is a Genius ...
I wonder how many climbs we have to cancel from the past, because new generations will be able to do better ...
Congratulation Rolo ... very "smart" article ...

The cad

climber

Does it matter, really?!?

Jan 25, 2012 - 11:37am PT

Claude Gardien wrote:

Let’s imagine for a second that Maestri hadn’t bolted the ridge. The first ascent would have been done in 2012.

I think that this assertion is quite questionable.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 25, 2012 - 11:38am PT

@New Age II

@ ROLO ...
Listen to the words of David Lama?

He is busy looking for consensus ...
Give me one hour and I'll translate it in english ... bye ...

¿Tienes una opinión sobre lo que hicieron Jason Kruk y Hyden Kennedy?

Ellos escalaron la ruta sin utilizar los clavos, eso estuvo muy bien, ese es su propio estilo y está muy bien, pero lo que hicieron cuando descendían, sacar los clavos, no fue algo muy inteligente. Creo que ellos no tenían el derecho de hacerlo, esa es mi opinión.

¿Qué piensas sobre la discusión que se desató por el tema de los clavos de Maestri, si está bien utilizarlos o no para llegar a la cumbre, si es justo utilizar cualquier medio con tal de lograr el objetivo?

Me parece que la cuestión es más sobre destruir o no destruir. Porque en mi opinión, el primer ascenso, en este caso el de Maestri, de alguna forma él tenía derecho a hacer en la montaña casi lo que él quisiera, pero al mismo tiempo él debería haber hecho su mejor esfuerzo. Si agregas bolts o los sacas, esas dos cosas son como destruir la ruta, es destruir lo que otra persona ha hecho y nadie te da el derecho. No creo que el eje del tema sea cuáles son tus habilidades, si sos capaz de escalar con o sin los bolts, si no que estaban ahí, entonces ¿quién te da el derecho a sacarlos o poner otros si no puedes escalarla?

Kinobi

climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 11:41am PT

Guys...
I have been working very hard these days, and I can't read all the posts (together with the junk) that appeared here.
BUT...
I see loads of criticism to Maestri. But most misses the points that we are talking about 2 kids that erased somebody's else route... not about Maestri.

Anyway...

I had the pleasure to be translater by an article appeared in Climbing written by Mark Synnot and Jeff Achey a few years ago.
There is a buch of guys talking sh#t about Maestri's personality. Why don't you guys get Mark or Jeff (I am sure it's pretty easy) and as them to write a note? The also interwieved Cesarino Fava, together with Maurizio Giarolli, and later Ermanno Salvaterra. As far as I know, Marc did Maestri's route too.
Would be nice, rather than having a lot of people talking craps without ever having met Maestri, to get their opinion.

Beside that, I still have a decent climbing level and I am here to get anybody in any of Maestri's route that he soloed, just to get the feeling of what Maestri achieved solo (with boots, not climbing shoes).

Ciao,
E

PS: Note of fun. Whatever the French said, nobody in the world will agree with them.

WBraun

climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 11:42am PT

That's not genius, "let's imagine"

Anyone can mental speculate and then juggle words to make a fantasy in their fertile minds.

It didn't happen that way no matter how one spins it in their heads.

Get real .....

New Age II

climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 11:42am PT

@ Enzolino
Era meglio in italiano...va bè va bene uguale... :-))
It was better in Italian ... Well it is fine the same ..

TwistedCrank

climber

Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom

Jan 25, 2012 - 11:45am PT

I don't think anyone has ever questioned whether or not Cesare Maestri was a badass mofo.

It's his ethics and motivations - as well as his honesty - that have been called to question for over 50 years.

stefano607518

Trad climber

italy/austria/switzerland

Jan 25, 2012 - 11:49am PT

PS. thanks God foradaiball account has been deactivated....

sorry guys for this Italian bug.....keeping writing in italian when nobody could understand him

gretz form Europe

New Age II

climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 11:51am PT

There is the translator

nature

climber

Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...

Jan 25, 2012 - 11:56am PT

I see loads of criticism to Maestri. But most misses the points that we are talking about 2 kids

They are not kids. though you are a prick for calling them that.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 25, 2012 - 12:00pm PT

The Google translation of Mariana Fava's letter

In response to the interview with the 4 climbers [Rolando Garibotti, Colin Haley, Jason Kruk, Hayden Kennedy] in The Austral Parakeet:
An act of this ilk do not have any defense, I also believe that absolutely absurd arguments were used and no basis for justification.
NOT IN ARGENTINA where requested visas, green card, passport of the community, letter of invitation from a relative, cash or credit card, work contract or permission to enter, it happens in countries like Australia, Canada, United States Spain, "where you'll probably get well," yes, once you get inside.
I also think that two people like you, who since coming to this town were well received, where many young people take them as referring climbing, aggression did not need the entire community free of El Chalten saying it has no right to say they "do not step on the mountain," that people usually spend a lot of respect grows in the mountains, even from the people, or that the reaction in defense of the act committed "surprises" or "borders on discrimination" (discrimination: Separating distinguish, differentiate. Give inferior treatment to an individual or community on racial, political, religious, etc.)..
In addition to amaze me that having fallen into squalor to defend an act of vandalism (vandalism inclination to destroy and devastate without consideration and respect for others) as performed on the path of the compressor using the victimization, it leaves me a certainty: are arrogant and poorly educated. It is no use to walk around town with satisfied smiles, as if they saved a life. They should feel ashamed.
I also wonder:
What if someone spray painted the picture of the Mona Lisa because she does not like your smile?
What if a tourist were to Chaltén see something that does not like and just delete it?
What if an Argentine positions take out nails for over 40 years of a wall in USA ????????
I think it would be better to preach examples of respect for the new scale, instead of giving examples of arrogance and inconsistency.
Living means to act consistently as we speak, think and talk like common sense and think with your heart if we want to get romantic, believe me it's worth.
I mean it's useless to pull out nails with one hand and pull with the other gas cylinders from the top.
Utopias should leave aside, because even though they believe that "the mountains are all" I regret to inform you that these are well ARGENTINAS.
Make no mistake to be well received is the same as being considered local.
And finally, before speaking of humility would make it.

No best regards,
Mariana Fava.

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jan 25, 2012 - 12:02pm PT

The first ascent would have been done in 2012.

The route would have gone on aid, for sure, in the 70's or 80's, at the latest. Plenty nearby of similar character did.

However, most of these big free climbs require an aid line to follow and this route was no exception.

I agree in general with the argument of "Theft of the Future", but the bolt ladder really just robbed some aid climber of a bunch of piton placements.

Slakkey

Big Wall climber

From Back to Big Wall Baby

Jan 25, 2012 - 12:04pm PT

Age has nothing to do with this was Maestri any more wise at his age for putting the bolts up in the first place? I think not

nature

climber

Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...

Jan 25, 2012 - 12:05pm PT

he can't: he says he's ben banned from SuperTopo...

whack-o-mole. classic.

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Jan 25, 2012 - 12:06pm PT

At the heart of the David Lama piece (in Spanish) was the notion that . . .
"the question is more about destroying or not destroying."

What makes this tricky is that Kennedy and Kruk are being accused by some of destroying an abomination that according to Leo Dickenson and many others, then and now, consider to be a sacrilege and violent act of destruction on one of the most elegant and spectacular rocks formations on earth.

Of course, no authentic climber would call the compressor debacle a "route," whereby dozens of bolts bristle from the rock within inches of good cracks. This, simply put, is "scaffolding," as Leo said.

The thinking seems to be that the route was always there. Now it has been climbed, and the original desecration can be done away with. Good or bad - I cannot say and I do not know. But I do know that arguments that Kennedy or Kruk did not have the "right" to do so are totally irrelevant to the simply fact that they DID do it. The vanguard do not ask permission.

Once again, it's great theater either way.

JL

New Age II

climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 12:10pm PT

The vanguard do not ask permission. ???????
Also be stupid not have to ask...........

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 25, 2012 - 12:14pm PT

Que pasaría si alguien pintara con aerosol el cuadro de la Gioconda porque no le gusta su sonrisa?

More like what if someone slashed the Mona Lisa with a knife - pretty much what Maestri did - if you are going to use a painting to illustrate the point. Cerro Torre is the art and the compressor the desecration - how do you get that so ass backwards?

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 25, 2012 - 12:19pm PT

if you are going to use a painting to illustrate the point.

The compressor was the desecration, not the art.

RIGHT ON!

The Larry

climber

Moab, UT

Jan 25, 2012 - 12:27pm PT

Since when does one get credit for a route that they didn't finish?

Sure CM did the heavy lifting, but he bailed before the top.

Therefore a historical failure of epic proportions, not a route.

nature

climber

Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...

Jan 25, 2012 - 12:36pm PT

The Larry: apparently in Italy and Argentina.

Kimbo

Trad climber

seattle

Jan 25, 2012 - 12:38pm PT

The vanguard do not ask permission.

The "vanguard"? what silly pomp!

Sorry, but i cannot fathom anyone calling this a "vanguard" action (for reasons i stated previously).

Kimbo

Trad climber

seattle

Jan 25, 2012 - 12:42pm PT

Cerro Torre is the art and the compressor the desecration - how do you get that so ass backwards?

cerro torre is a piece of rock, sculpted/formed by the impersonal(?) forces of nature; in no way does it fit the definition of "art".

it doesn't give a hoot if someone stuck 10 pounds of metal into it once upon a time; it takes a human with ideas in her/his head for that!

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 25, 2012 - 12:44pm PT

That's great that you got to state your points Kimbo.
But that facts are in spite of general disagreement Maestri was not swayed from his actions when he was the vanguard nor were K&K.

They changed nothing but the future which has already happened.

Kimbo

Trad climber

seattle

Jan 25, 2012 - 12:45pm PT

i do find the lack of responses to the argentinian's letter posted on a previous page both interesting and telling, a continuation of the seeming arrogance that the "pro bolt-remover" crowd seems to display....

Kinobi

climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 12:49pm PT

@Kimbo
OT: "silly pomp" is, more or less, "blowjob" in Italian.
Great post.
E

Kimbo

Trad climber

seattle

Jan 25, 2012 - 12:50pm PT

But that facts are in spite of general disagreement Maestri was not swayed from his actions when he was the vanguard nor were K&K.

no one listed above fits the definition of "vanguard" (based on their actions on cerro torre).

They changed nothing but the future which has already happened.

it's interesting to ponder the notion that the future "has already happened"....

maybe someone has more on this.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 25, 2012 - 12:51pm PT

Silly Pomp = Italian Blow Job.

WAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
;0
Love it.

Jean Gurtorju

climber

land of echoes

Jan 25, 2012 - 12:52pm PT

Hi guys...

above a photo of Buddha of Bamiyan, destroyed by ignorance, fundamentalism and the inability to understand the thoughts of others, qualities that characterize the Afghan Talibans.
Well, in the K & K's act I see the same qualities: violence, intolerance, the presumption of being right, arrogance towards those who don't think like them and democratically expressed it in the assembly of El Chalten.

This whole story is very sad.

WBraun

climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 12:57pm PT

Impossible to destroy Buddha.

Can never ever be done ever.

If one "thinks" it can be done then they do not know who "Buddha" really is .....

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jan 25, 2012 - 12:59pm PT

The vanguard do not ask permission.

Neither does the deviant. Kind of hard to see the difference here.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 25, 2012 - 01:00pm PT

Jean there is not the slightest comparison between these acts.

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 01:04pm PT

Now I've heard it all. Comparing the Taliban blowing up ancient Buddha statues or defacing the Mona Lisa to stripping some unsightly machine bolts from a rock face? I mean, seriously?

crunch

Social climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 01:04pm PT

Ahh, the Taliban make an appearance. Greg Crouch, in his blog entry about the bolt chopping, actually mentioned Auschwitz.

Outstanding!

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Jan 25, 2012 - 01:04pm PT

@Jean

Totally inappropriate metaphor. You are implicitly comparing Maestri's bolts to the buddhas of Bamiyan. While both were acts of religious mania, only one is actual archaeology and a skillful work of art.

Furthermore, you are associating K & K with the Taliban. That's just wrong on many levels.

Try again.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 25, 2012 - 01:08pm PT

From the interview to David Lama
http://www.lacachania.com.ar/noticia.php?id_nota=193&id_seccion=4
(the last sentence was not so clear to translate)

What's your opinion about what Jason K. and Hyden K did?
They climbed a route without using bolts, that is actually ok, that's their style and it's fine. But what they did during the decent, to remove the bolts, was not very intelligent. I believe they were not entitled to do it.

What do you think about the discussion that was triggered regarding Maestri's bolts? Is it fair to use them to reach the summit? Is it fair to use any mean to achieve the goal?
I think the matter is more about destroying or not. In my opinion, for the first ascent (Maestri's), he was entitled to do on the mountain whatever he wanted to do, and at the same time he should have made his best. In both cases, adding or removing bolts, destroy the route. It's destroying what some body else has done and nobody is entitled to destroy it. The issue are not your skills, whether you're able to climb with or without bolts, but the fact thyt they were on the wall, then who is entitled to add or remove bolts if you're not able to climb (the route)?

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 25, 2012 - 01:09pm PT

above a photo of Buddha of Bamiyan, destroyed by ignorance, fundamentalism and the inability to understand the thoughts of others, qualities that characterize the Afghan Talibans. Well, in the K & K's act I see the same qualities: violence, intolerance, the presumption of being right, arrogance towards those who don't think like them and democratically expressed it in the assembly of El Chalten.

Cerro Torre is the Buddha, the compressor route is the RPG - how is it you guys keep getting it completely ass backwards?

ALPINEMAN

Trad climber

bogota

Jan 25, 2012 - 01:10pm PT

What's your opinion about what Jason K. and Hyden K did?
They climbed a route without using bolts, that is actually ok, that's their style and it's fine.

not correct: 5 bolts

Jean Gurtorju

climber

land of echoes

Jan 25, 2012 - 01:12pm PT

Philo, not only do I think there is the comparison, but I think, as I wrote, that the thoughts behind these acts are the same: violence, ignorance, fundamentalism.

But, as Murakami Haruki in his last great book: "if you do not know by yourself there are no words that can explain it to you."

MH2

climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 01:14pm PT

@Kimbo: i do find the lack of responses to the argentinian's letter posted on a previous page both interesting and telling

The issues here are emotional and appealing to logic and drawing analogies don't settle the dust. It does make some sense to me from my worm's-eye view that the involvement of Cesarino Fava in this story is important and that if the Argentines (or Italians or anyone else) feel that his memory has been disrespected, that shifts my own feelings toward having kept the Compressor business as it was.

http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web08s/wfeature-cesarino-fava-tribute

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 25, 2012 - 01:16pm PT

They're not fundamentalists, obviously.

In this case it's clearly a forest-for-the-trees sort of deal only instead it's can't-see-the-mountain-for-the-bolts.

Ghost

climber

A long way from where I started

Jan 25, 2012 - 01:19pm PT

But, as Murakami Haruki in his last great book: "if you do not know by yourself there are no words that can explain it to you."

But that statement applies just as much to you as to Phil. In fact it is the fundamental underpinning of all religious argument. As in: "I'm right, of course, and the fact that you deny that I'm right just shows that you are ignorant."

Looking for right, or wrong, or justification in this event is a waste of time. No one was harmed and no one gained money illegally. Many decades ago somebody drilled a few hundred holes in a mountain and put metal bolts in the holes. Many decades later somebody took the bolts out of the holes.

Every day during those many decades, thousands starved. Or were murdered for political reasons.

Jean Gurtorju

climber

land of echoes

Jan 25, 2012 - 01:22pm PT

@snorky

Maestri's bolts are not the art work, the art work is the line traced by him on a piece of rock that FOR THIS it becomes art.
Otherwise all the bolts on Torre should be removed, even those of Salvaterra, K&K, Ferrari and why not also Garibotti's.

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jan 25, 2012 - 01:25pm PT

Wow, David Lama = idiot. He's pretty much the last living person on earth who should be pontificating over the KK ascent.

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 01:29pm PT

Yeah Lama's statement is just dripping with hypocrisy. I'm incredibly impressed with his ascent and the fact that he did it without placing any new bolts, but the fact remains his team did drill 60 new bolts before (even if they were not for climbing) and he was originally planning to rap-bolt the headwall before being talked out of it. For him to speak now about how bolts shouldn't be added or chopped comes off as attempting to white-wash his own history.

New Age II

climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 01:32pm PT

k.k used the bolts on the variant. Why not have unrivet?

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 25, 2012 - 01:33pm PT

OK NewAge go for it.

New Age II

climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 01:35pm PT

@ Philo
You have been in Patagonia?
Not a problem. They pay me for this

Jean Gurtorju

climber

land of echoes

Jan 25, 2012 - 01:45pm PT

Then the only junk bolts are Maestri's and you can peacefully use all the others and still get it "by fair means"???

rampik

Social climber

the alps

Jan 25, 2012 - 01:47pm PT

ciao amici,
sono nuovo del forum, arrampico da 25 anni e sono stato in patagonia un po' di volte... spero di trovare qui degli amici che abbiano la mia stessa passione e con cui magari condividere delle belle esperienze in montagna.
Ho visto tante belle foto, complimenti!

rampik

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Jan 25, 2012 - 01:49pm PT

Everyone still posting (including me) is simply proving John Long's point--the deed's been done, the future is here, and we're all just sitting on the sideline yapping about what yesterday was all about.

That route is gone--no more free rides to the summit of Cerro Torre. Toughen up, redirect your dreams elsewhere, or remain a sideliner.

Better yet, create something new somewhere yourself.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 25, 2012 - 01:50pm PT

The previous post says the following.

Hello friends,
are new to the forum, climb for 25 years and I was in Patagonia some 'times ... I hope to find friends here who have my same passion with which you may share some good experiences in the mountains.
I have seen many beautiful photos, congratulations!

rampik

Very Cool! Welcome Rampik

rampik

Social climber

the alps

Jan 25, 2012 - 01:51pm PT

thanks filo!

nice to meet you

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Jan 25, 2012 - 01:58pm PT

Something to consider, especially in light of the assertion that Cerro Torre is in the domain of Chalten locals (Chalten was built in 1985):

Cerro Torre lies within Argentina's Parque Nacional de los Glaciares, also a UNESCO World Heritage site.

This World Heritage site is called Los Glaciares, and it meets the criteria of a natural, not a cultural, UNESCO site. There are official criteria. While the selection committee determined that the area contains "superlative natural phenomena or areas of exceptional natural beauty and aesthetic importance" and "are outstanding examples representing major stages of earth's history, including the record of life, significant on-going geological processes in the development of landforms, or significant geomorphic or physiographic features", they didn't consider the Compressor Route "to represent a masterpiece of human creative genius", although many folks in this thread have made just that comparison.

Some choice snippets from the UNESCO website:

"World Heritage is the designation for places on Earth that are of outstanding universal value to humanity and as such, have been inscribed on the World Heritage List to be protected for future generations to appreciate and enjoy."

"It is based on the premise that certain places on Earth are of outstanding universal value and should therefore form part of the common heritage of mankind... While fully respecting the national sovereignty, and without prejudice to property rights provided by national legislation, the States Parties recognize that the protection of the World Heritage is the duty of the international community as a whole."

"187 countries (called States Parties) have ratified the Convention, making it an almost universally accepted set of principles and framework of action."

"The site is the property of the country on whose territory it is located, but it is considered in the interest of the international community to protect the site for future generations. Its protection and preservation becomes a concern of the international World Heritage community as a whole." (emphasis added)

"A site can be proposed for inscription only by the country in which the property is located." (So this was Argentina's idea)

"The World Heritage Committee relies on citizens to play an active role in protecting World Heritage sites." (Thanks Hayden and Jason for volunteering.)

Mike Libecki

climber

the moment of now

Jan 25, 2012 - 01:59pm PT

@Middendorf, well said.

rampik

Social climber

the alps

Jan 25, 2012 - 01:59pm PT

sorry for my bad american language, i will utilise a traductor

here is my friend some years ago when we "chopped" all the slovenian route in Torre south face (Karo-Jeglic) and we found too many normal piton in the route...

Cerro Torre is better totally clean, not only bolts but also normal piton...

(photo taken at polacos camp)

rampik

Social climber

the alps

Jan 25, 2012 - 02:00pm PT

943, stay tuned

The cad

climber

Does it matter, really?!?

Jan 25, 2012 - 02:01pm PT

Since when does one get credit for a route that they didn't finish?

Sure CM did the heavy lifting, but he bailed before the top.

Therefore a historical failure of epic proportions, not a route.

Uh, The Larry is right here!
We've all been wrong for decades.
From now on, let's call it the Bridwell Route.

So, K&K have chopped the Bridwell Route.

What difference does it make?
Ridiculous.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 25, 2012 - 02:05pm PT

Nice post Snorky.

Nice effort and good on you Rampik.

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Jan 25, 2012 - 02:08pm PT

Thanks Mike--Good to see you're still living the dream.

I might have some new gear for you to try out sometime--I'm getting another backyard shop going...

cheers

New Age II

climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 02:08pm PT

@ Philo
Why K.K. have not taken the compressor?
Do you know where the compressor?

bvb

Social climber

flagstaff arizona

Jan 25, 2012 - 02:18pm PT

The Compressor truly belongs in a museum somewhere. It's a climbing relic right up there with the Dolt Cart.

The Larry

climber

Moab, UT

Jan 25, 2012 - 02:21pm PT

Maybe they could bring the Dolt cart out of retirement to get the compressor down. Now that would be cool.

mike m

Trad climber

black hills

Jan 25, 2012 - 02:21pm PT

Who is going to carry it down? If it ever comes down I think it well be a 5000ft tumble down to the glacier.

Jean Gurtorju

climber

land of echoes

Jan 25, 2012 - 02:24pm PT

Seeing rampik's picture repost my question:

Then the only junk bolts are Maestri's and you can peacefully use all the others and still get it "by fair means"???

I think it's ridiculous and highly hypocrite...

rampik

Social climber

the alps

Jan 25, 2012 - 02:24pm PT

the redbull helicopter was in the area, has also used garibotti and haley in these days

could lead to cabin the compressor

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 25, 2012 - 02:31pm PT

Personally I would very much like to see the Compressor safely removed and appropriately displayed in a museum.

Suddenly careening and crashing towards international climbers herding around the glacier seems a less appealing end.

YoungGun

climber

North

Jan 25, 2012 - 02:32pm PT

How much do you think Chessler could get for the compressor?

New Age II

climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 02:34pm PT

@ Philo
could bring down the compressor your friends k.k.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 25, 2012 - 02:37pm PT

Could it be removed and brought down safely? Absolutely?
Will it be done by Kruk & Kennedy? Doubtful!

New Age II

climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 02:40pm PT

How do you think that they brought up?

ezy

Mountain climber

Italy

Jan 25, 2012 - 02:42pm PT

Even the Dolomites mountain are in the area defense by UNESCO.

Finally we clean up the infamous route to 'water drop' on the Marmolada and Tre Cime di Lavaredo ...
Thanks to Hayden, Jason and also Snorky for the volunteer.

We wait with love

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 25, 2012 - 02:42pm PT

Yeah whatever dude you got the mad light shining bright in your eye too.

Yeah, it's a guiding light of stone before anyone was climbing. It's a simple benchmark to measure our impact, values, and judgment against. Funny how so many here only see the bolts, and not the mountain as it was prior to Maestri's drillfest.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 25, 2012 - 02:43pm PT

New Age II I am sorry I do not understand the question.

New Age II

climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 02:50pm PT

@ Philo
How do you think they brought up the compressor?

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 25, 2012 - 02:51pm PT

Maestri and crew hauled it up. Why?

New Age II

climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 02:51pm PT

@ezy
Can we come to clean up everything in the Dolomites? uhmm I do not think

New Age II

climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 02:54pm PT

@ Philo

You asked, you can pull down the compressor? yes.
Why has not done good volunteers K.K. ?

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 25, 2012 - 02:56pm PT

New Age II, you will have to ask them for yourself or wait for their story like the rest of the world.

Silly Argument.
Sllly Pomp.

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Jan 25, 2012 - 02:56pm PT

It's a simple thing, really, that the vanguard - or call it what you want - will never ask permission and calling them pompous, playing God, bad and selfish men, has nothing whatsoever to do with what they do and will do. You and I are powerless over that small percentage of people doing seminal things - good, bad and otherwise. Our appraisals and evaluations of them are totally irrelevant to what they DO. That drives some people stark raving mad. They'd rather have a consensus or a panel decide and officially grant the "right' for the vanguard to do what they do.

In your dreams, Sherlock.

If you feel differently, the only thing is to DO something else. Make your own statement in the form of direct action. History is made out on the sharp end, not here. The fact that we don't like some history is reason enough to get out there and do something so history won't repeat itself. And best of all, you don't need permission to do so. But you'll never please everyone. Better know that going in.

JL

ionlyski

Trad climber

Kalispell, Montana

Jan 25, 2012 - 02:59pm PT

**"Even the Dolomites mountain are in the area defense by UNESCO.

Finally we clean up the infamous route to 'water drop' on the Marmolada and Tre Cime di Lavaredo ...
Thanks to Hayden, Jason and also Snorky for the volunteer.

We wait with love"**

Ezy-Choss piles don't count

Kimbo

Trad climber

seattle

Jan 25, 2012 - 03:11pm PT

If you feel differently, the only thing is to DO something else. Make your own statement in the form of direct action.

talking and discussing IS doing.

and often a precursor to action.

do you think the mythical vanguard does not discuss its motives, objectives, etc. and evaluate its position? (i really don't like discussing this "vanguard" in the abstract, since this "vanguard" is actually people, people who make choices, choices that are either wisely evaluated PRIOR TO ACTION, or impulsively catered to).

ionlyski

Trad climber

Kalispell, Montana

Jan 25, 2012 - 03:14pm PT

Well then talk; but we're still going to chop

Kimbo

Trad climber

seattle

Jan 25, 2012 - 03:18pm PT

Well then talk; but we're still going to chop

i'm sure you'll represent largo's "vanguard" in the wisest of ways (if you are able to pry yourself off your couch).

ionlyski

Trad climber

Kalispell, Montana

Jan 25, 2012 - 03:23pm PT

Don't have time to sit on the couch. The thousanth post is coming, don't you know?

The cad

climber

Does it matter, really?!?

Jan 25, 2012 - 03:31pm PT

That's OBVIOUS.
Therefore, what should we do?
Restrain ourselves from judging and stating our opinion?
Close SuperTopo and stop this useless rant?

Pointless.

New Age II

climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 03:36pm PT

Ok stop there.
Kennedy and Kruk were wrong.

ionlyski

Trad climber

Kalispell, Montana

Jan 25, 2012 - 03:51pm PT

Ok stop there.
Maestri was wrong.

rampik

Social climber

the alps

Jan 25, 2012 - 03:53pm PT

No, without Maestri Patagonia did not exist

RE5PECT

adnix

Big Wall climber

Finland

Jan 25, 2012 - 03:53pm PT

In case any of you missed there is also this post from Carlos Comesana. He did the first ascent of Supercanaleta on Fitz Roy with José Luis Fonrouge in 1965 and in alpine style!

What comes to the vote in 2007: I was there at the time of the vote. Back then I was against the chopping but now that it's been chopped I'm really happy that the via ferrata is no more. Without the via ferrata Cerro Torre is really one the most inaccessible mountains on earth. The easiest route up being the Ragni route (1500m, AI5+ M4 MI6). Most likely too hard for me ever to climb it but so be it then.

New Age II

climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 03:55pm PT

How many climbers have climbed the route compressor? All were wrong?

rampik

Social climber

the alps

Jan 25, 2012 - 03:56pm PT

also the routes connected to Maestri '70 was wrong

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 25, 2012 - 03:58pm PT

How about Avant Garde then?

The term was originally used to describe the foremost part of an army advancing into battle (also called the vanguard or literally the advance guard) and now applied to any group, particularly of artists, that considers itself innovative and ahead of the majority.[3]
The origin of the application of this French term to art is still debated.
The term also refers to the promotion of radical social reforms. It was this meaning that was evoked by the Saint Simonian Olinde Rodrigues in his essay, "L'artiste, le savant et l'industriel," (“The artist, the scientist and the industrialist”, 1825) which contains the first recorded use of "avant-garde" in its now-customary sense: there, Rodrigues calls on artists to "serve as [the people's] avant-garde," insisting that "the power of the arts is indeed the most immediate and fastest way" to social, political, and economic reform.[4] Over time, avant-garde became associated with movements concerned with "art for art's sake", focusing primarily on expanding the frontiers of aesthetic experience, rather than with wider social reform.

New Age II

climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:02pm PT

@ Philo
Off topic ....

rampik

Social climber

the alps

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:08pm PT

dai cazzo che devo mettere a letto il bambino

rampik

Social climber

the alps

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:09pm PT

damn I have to put to bed my baby

New Age II

climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:15pm PT

The Americans have surrendered

rampik

Social climber

the alps

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:25pm PT

rampik

Social climber

the alps

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:31pm PT

rampik

Social climber

the alps

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:32pm PT

rampik

Social climber

the alps

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:33pm PT

mike m

Trad climber

black hills

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:33pm PT

Didn't they take the compressor up with a giant winch. How much does it weigh? Hell I will go get it. I just need 3 months leave, hire K&K, a giant winch, a nice weather window, travel money, sponsorship from the new smithsonian climbing museum of which the compressor will be the centerpiece, and a fishing pole.

The pole is to go fishing with Donini.

rampik

Social climber

the alps

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:33pm PT

New Age II

climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:34pm PT

need to translate :-))

rampik

Social climber

the alps

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:34pm PT

1000

pèm

Boulder climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:34pm PT

m i l l e

ionlyski

Trad climber

Kalispell, Montana

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:34pm PT

did i get it? 1000?

ionlyski

Trad climber

Kalispell, Montana

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:34pm PT

Damn!

rampik

Social climber

the alps

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:35pm PT

thanks

pèm

Boulder climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:37pm PT

maledetto new-age ma non potevi startene a letto col ginocchio spappolato?

mike m

Trad climber

black hills

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:38pm PT

Ionlyski, I can delete a couple of posts so you can have 1000 if you want.

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:38pm PT

He had that thousandth post all lined up ahead of time with that photoshopped picture. Someone delete a post before and make him look like a dork. Like some of you crafty buggers did on my very own Friday Night post - sheesh.

I'm with Dingus - let's celebrate the madness! See you on the wall! I can't wait to hear the sounds floating across from Camp VI on the Nose, where Melissa and Enzolita will be enjoying their romantic rendezvous. Now that WOULD be madness!

New Age II

climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:38pm PT

Ciao !

rampik

Social climber

the alps

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:38pm PT

pém ma sei cialtry?

nature

climber

Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:39pm PT

taking care of the bro.... :-)

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:39pm PT

Now I'll never get to climb it...

mike m

Trad climber

black hills

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:40pm PT

Do you think if I read those italian post enough times some day I will just understand them?

pèm

Boulder climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:40pm PT

rampikegno t'ho ngulato! han canciellato i post dietro: 1 0 0 0 !

mike m

Trad climber

black hills

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:41pm PT

We are american revisionists.

nature

climber

Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:43pm PT

yup!

mike m

Trad climber

black hills

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:45pm PT

I don't know if I have ever seen so much climbing content on the front page.

rampik

Social climber

the alps

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:49pm PT

bari

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:50pm PT

Totally irelevant, I know...

ionlyski

Trad climber

Kalispell, Montana

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:57pm PT

Yeah! Sweet pics. Now we're gettin somewhere.

rampik

Social climber

the alps

Jan 25, 2012 - 04:58pm PT

nice pics on a via ferrata, like in dolomiti

bmacd

Mountain climber

100% Canadian

Jan 25, 2012 - 05:00pm PT

Lovegasoline - you mean of course, after Jason and Hayden free climb the north face of the North Twin this spring ? 13 hours on Cerro Torre is a romp in the park for these 2 super alpinists, compared to the 3 days they will likely need on their return to North Twin.

Drugo Lebowsky

Ice climber

Treviso

Jan 25, 2012 - 05:02pm PT

hello guys,
excuse me fom my poor english, but I was a very bad student... :-(
I never went to Patagonia (supercanaleta would be my dream! ... ) but from thirty years I am a little humble climber in dolomites.

I read Your opinion about the old compressor route and about some other things and I wish tell You some details:

Cesare Maestri (enzolino already explained) was a man who sought fame and glory and he did the kind of climbing routes at that historical moment seemed the future; the "direttissime" and "super-direttissime", piton after piton, bolt after bolt.
but at that time He was one of the strongest free climbers! He did in free solo severe routes. He was able to fre climbing, but newspapers talken about him only if he stayed many days in Wall.

the compressor route actually seems out of the history; ok... but at that time?

an example
actually in dolomites there are a lot of vie ferrate and most of the climbers don't love them; but NOW!
many vie ferrate were built at the beginning of XX century and at that time
the common thoght was and at that time were viewed positively.

a consideration:
if today an Alpine Club builds a via ferrata, I hope that that It is destroyed
but if some people dismantle an historical via ferrata, I think that They are very stupid.

ps: sorry again for my bad English

pps: if a climber thinks that dolomites are choss piles.. I am happy! ... so there will be one less stupid c*#k in dolomite routes!!! :-)

pps: instead of a glass of good Italian wine:-), I am thirsty and I'm drinking a coke and whiskey... cheers!!! ... it says so???? :-(

bvb

Social climber

flagstaff arizona

Jan 25, 2012 - 05:04pm PT

Damn John those pics were as refreshing as a slideshow! I guess I knew you'd climbed Cerro Torre, but had completely spaced that out.

But I respect your opinion too bvb.

Just a throwaway comment Dingus. If that thing were sitting in a museum it'd lose the mythic, spectral power in has in those photos, hanging there like a lost testament to Man's folly in the Mountains.

EDIT: A thought just occured to me (it happens sometimes.) How would people feel about all those bolts if they'd been drilled by hand? If the compressor were removed from the equation? Would they have still been such low-hanging fruit?

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Jan 25, 2012 - 05:10pm PT

Cheers, Bob.

That compressor is actually a pain in the butt--you have to climb over it, and it catches all your ropes and slings, and turns the whole belay into a clusterf*#k. When we were there it was locked in with swaged cables--this was in 1993 and after it had been removed, brought to the ground (by helicopter) and replaced by a film crew.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 25, 2012 - 05:51pm PT

Great pics Deuce4.

Would you elaborate on this...

this was in 1993 and after it had been removed, brought to the ground (by helicopter) and replaced by a film crew.

I remember hearing some rumor of this.
Has Maeestri's Compressor all ready been on the ground?
Or is it alpine myth?

Conrad

climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 05:58pm PT

Duece and I climbed the route in the summer 93/94. It was an enjoyable day out with fine weather. While we climbed to the ice cap we didn't find a reasonable way to surmount the mushroom. It fell off later in the season and is a unique bit of ice that changes year to year.

Humans are the dominant species on this planet. Our control of the natural environment, both intentional (Hoover Dam) and unintentional (Co2 emissions), is our signature. By extension we have brought this ethos into the mountains. The Cable Route, Chain Reaction, the ladders and ropes on Everest, aircraft support are but a few examples of how we use machinery to climb peaks. I'm guilty of all of this stuff - I justify it selfishly as being fun and having some over arching value to society. It doesn't. We are out having fun and playing a grand game of fort. (Forts are little stick huts children make when they are about 10 years old. Expeditions are an extension of youth playing fort.)

In 2007 our climbing team pulled the aluminium ladder on the Second Step of the NE Ridge of Chomolungma. While we pulled off the first free ascent, placing our own gear and belaying, we were required to reinstall the ladder by the Chinese Mountaineering Association. The ladder is part of the 1975 ascent and has significant historic and economic value to the host country. It would have been cool to take the ladder down and require all subsequent climbers to haul up a #4 cam, a 2 x 4 block to stack it with and a few knife blades. Mandatory free climbing. It would have been a statement. Alas the ladder was set back into place and we continued on our way.

Taking down dams is common practice. Once they have served their useful life and we begin to understand their impact on the greater environment it makes sense. Times change, technology adapts and we progress as a species. The pulling of Maestri's bolts is akin to taking out dams. We have moved on from this style of climbing and can accomplish greater climbs with less equipment. This is the direction climbing is going towards. Removing this "dam" on the Torre is a step in this direction.

Hayden and Jason have given the mountain some of it's strength back, made it a bit more of a challenge and in the process stirred the hornet's nest. The historical route is no longer. We lost that. Cerro Torre is stronger. This is a good progression.

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Jan 25, 2012 - 06:02pm PT

Yep, the compressor has already been moved around. I think it was put back after pressure from the locals because of similar historical arguments.

The film history of Cerro Torre would be interesting.

Herzog's film, Scream of Stone, is hands down the best climbing film ever.

I don't know many details of the film that removed the compressor (or why), helicoptered to the summit, and supposedly chain-sawed a cave on top which has been rumoured to have collapsed the snow bridge to the summit mushroom (and prevented many parties from attaining the "true" summit), but I believe it was a separate film from Herzog's, several years later.

Until recently, I wasn't aware that Leo Dickenson produced a film on Cerro Torre, but would like to see it.

What other films took place on this ferocious peak?

Conrad

climber

Jan 25, 2012 - 06:03pm PT

Thanks for the fine pics John. You posted while I was typing. Ermanno - playing fort. Classic.

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Jan 25, 2012 - 06:09pm PT

Nice post, Conrad. Twas a fine day of climbing (after many weeks of going nuts in the huts!). The weather was our Christmas present (or was it Boxing Day), I recall.

cheers!

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 25, 2012 - 07:01pm PT

If the route was an abomination from the get go, had no ethical justification for existing, if it disfigured and polluted the glorious Cerro Torre, then where was the honor and moral courage of all the locals (i.e., lovers of Cerro Torre) over the past 40 years?

Good question. But do you really have any doubts that it was anything but what you describe, particularly given the photos?

eagle

Trad climber

new paltz, ny

Jan 25, 2012 - 07:18pm PT

what a couple of pricks for chopping the bolts. i don't care how fast or what style they climbed the route in, now they will probably sell them on ebay and cash in. who do they think they are...a couple of superheros? maybe i'll start climbing again and replace them with 3"x1/2 shiny new rawls and then spray paint them the color of the rock. patagonia here i come.

oh yeah don't worry, i'll use the same holes

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jan 25, 2012 - 07:23pm PT

sorry again for my bad English

Your English is just fine. Our Italian and Spanish, on the other hand, mostly ain't so hot.

Conrad, John: Thanks for the photos and posts.

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Jan 25, 2012 - 10:01pm PT

If you so strongly advocated chopping the Compressor Route why didn't you chop this route at some point in the past 40 years? Why now the chopping, 40 years later?
-----

Because 40, 30, 20, and so forth years ago, nobody had established a route around all those bolts. The bolt removal followed from the "Fair Means" ascent, which rendered the CM bolt ladder needles - at lease in the eyes of Kennedy and Kruk, who never called me to ask if it was okay. Did they call you? If you come to understand (not necessarily agreeing) why nobody asked for our OK - without jumping to evaluations and demonic berating - you will see things clearly.

JL

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Jan 25, 2012 - 10:14pm PT

Deucy - can you please post some captions to your photos? Otherwise we don't know who and where and what.

Anders - YES! Post up all of those Mountain Mag articles as we would all love to read them. Please post in a high enough resolution so that they are easily readable. [compare to Steve Grossman's scans, which are a bit too low res]

KDD

climber

bishop

Jan 25, 2012 - 10:35pm PT

i wish the boys would have picked a dicey weather window and climbed it with retro gear and equipment while placing new bolts on lead with a hand drill sight unseen

thats it

kevin daniels

mr-p

Trad climber

Invisible City

Jan 25, 2012 - 11:31pm PT

How is that any climber, if we take the word to imply love and respect for the mountains, can reconcile and justify a compressor suspended by cables, in one of the most remote and beautiful ranges on earth, to be "history that needs to be preserved" ?

All the arguments about choice, locals making decisions, respect for the first climbers, etc hide behind the moral relativism typical of those who are not directly affected by something, never having to draw a line between right and wrong.

Jason and Hayden had the balls to do more than an outstanding climb: they took a stand to undo some of the harm inflicted by an egotistical maniac, in search of personal glory. Maestri perpetrated one of the biggest atrocities in the history of climbing. Finally, some vindication.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 26, 2012 - 01:18am PT

Great post Drugo!

Great post Bruce!

You got the point ... many of climbers (especially italians) are not pissed by the chopping action itself, but by the lack of respect towards our predecessors, towards climbing history and against locals' opinions ...

I've read that about 40 people who wanted to "lynch" K&K ... who are the real locals and the real foreigners?
How can K&K pretend to have the right to climb Cerro Torre and, on the summit, arbitrarily decide to chop the bolts?
Rolando Garibotti always preached to chop the bolts. He is a local. So, why he didn't do it himself?

Ignorance cannot be blamed, until when it is used to diffamate and vilify people.

And when I read this article
http://www.pataclimb.com/knowledge/articles/CTbolts.html

“Cesare Maestri drilled the many long bolt ladders not to connect natural features but to avoid them, tackling blank rock that he could overcome at a 15-bolt-per-hour pace with his compressor and drill, altering Cerro Torre’s natural challenges in a way unseen on any other mountain of such magnificence. Most of the 400 bolts he placed are unnecessary by anybody’s standards, even those from back in 1970 when he placed them.”

I realize how much ignorance there is on this issue.

I wonder what the author of this article was thinking when he mentioned the „standards of the time“.
All these routes listed below were climbed in Maestri's time and are located in Dolomite … a UNESCO’s heritage … and the number of bolts, and the length of the routes show that, in those time, to place many bolts was not such a big issue in Dolomite.
1959: Torre Trieste, South Face, Ignazio Piussi, Giorgio Radaelli, 800 m, 330 pitons, 90 bolts, 45 wooden wedges
1960: Roda di Vael (Toni Egger route), Cesare Maestri, Claudio Baldessari, 400 m, 400 pitons, 20 bolts,
1966: Taè, South face, Ivano Dibona, Diego Valleferro, Luciano Da Pozzo, 400 m, 170 pitons, 180 bolts
1966: Tofana di Mezzo, East face, Ivano Dibona, Luciano Da Pozzo, Diego Valleferro, 400 m, 180 pitons, 70 bolts
1968: Punta Gíovannina (Tofane), South West face, Ivano Dibona, Diego Zandonel, 320 m, 150 pitons, more than 100 bolts

Now, were all these climbers insane?
Sometimes, to sublimate style and ethics, human beings have to explore experiences that in future can have lower value. But this is a necessary part of climbing process and evolution, from which everybody learns.

All the routes listed above and many others are parts of Dolomite … a UNESCO’s heritage … and nobody ever thought to remove the bolts because they are “insane” … on the contrary the aid routes became an opportunity for young generations to apply the “free climbing” paradigm …
http://www.up-climbing.com/en/contributions/mountaineering/dolomites--freeing-aid-routes

So … Silvo Karo can relax …
… the future is not compromised. And David Lama (after the admitted mistakes), Lynn Hill, Todd Skinner, Alex Huber, Bubu Bole, etc demostrated that new generations can face new challenges coming from the past, without necessarily destroying and vilifying climbing history, like, on the contrary, Rolando Garibotti, Kennedy and Kruk did.

What's more funny of this issue is that some people still believe in Maestri’s insanity ...
In truth … I wonder if … insanity is just in the eyes of the beholder …

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 26, 2012 - 01:26am PT

You can keep attempting to justify it in the context of the times, but the broad opinion - at the time - was unequivocal in calling it an abortion.

bmacd

Mountain climber

100% Canadian

Jan 26, 2012 - 01:42am PT

Now is the time for Cesare Maestri himself to come forward and share with everyone his feelings on the matter - I think this is what really is needed. Truly there would be great value in his words.

Ora è il momento per lo stesso Cesare Maestri a presentare e condividere con tutti i suoi sentimenti sulla questione - credo che questo è ciò che realmente è necessario. Veramente ci sarebbe un grande valore nelle sue parole.

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesare_Maestri

the way Dibona to Croz of the Most High (1952)
the way Comedians to Sassolungo Salami (1952)
the way Solleder in the Owl (1952)
the way of guides on Crozzon Brenta (1953)
Via Trento (Detassis) to high Brenta (1953)
the way Soldà the South Pillar of the Marmolada Penia (1953)
the crossing from the Top of Ambiez the Bocca del Tuckett concatenating 16 in solitary peaks of the central chain in less than 24 hours (1954)
the way Vinatzer the Sass de syphilis (1955)
the way Opium to Croz of the Most High (1955)
The way of Guides to the Brenta Crozzon downhill (1956)
northern edge of the Cimon della Pala first solo winter ascent (1956)
the way Micheluzzi the Piz Ciavazes (1956)
the way Solleder the Sass Maor (downhill), the way Buhl and the way Masters - Baldessari (downhill) at the Roda di Vael , new routes opened between 1964 and 1966 in the Brenta of Grostè Cima , Cima di Campiglio , Massari Top .

All these climbs were made alone.

ALPINEMAN

Trad climber

bogota

Jan 26, 2012 - 03:05am PT

Because 40, 30, 20, and so forth years ago, nobody had established a route around all those bolts.

or

Because 40, 30, 20, and so forth years ago, nobody has drilled other bolts around all those bolts

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA

Jan 26, 2012 - 03:21am PT

Got to keep this thread going:-)

As they say in Europe, is the 5.11 climbing on "Fair Means" 'Obligitare' or can you aid past the difficult free climbing if you choose?

The cad

climber

Does it matter, really?!?

Jan 26, 2012 - 03:22am PT

Nice try bmacd, but please restrain from using automatic translators.

No doubt that Maestri was badass and that at the time he was one of "The Vanguard".

Here is the list of his SOLOS (I've done my best to translate it from Italian):

Dibona route, Croz dell'Altissimo (1952)
Comici route, Salame del Sassolungo (1952)
Solleder route, Civetta (1952)
Guide route, Crozzon di Brenta (1953)
Trento route (aka Detassis route), Brenta alta (1953)
Soldà route, south pillar of Marmolada di Penia (1953)
Traversing from Cima d'Ambièz to Bocca del Tuckett, touching 16 summits in less than 24 hrs (1954)
Vinatzer route, Sass de Luesa (1955)
Oppio route, Croz dell'Altissimo (1955)
Guide route, Crozzon di Brenta, downclimbing (1956)
North Ridge, Cimon della Pala, 1st winter solo (1956)
Micheluzzi route, Piz Ciavazes (1956)
Solleder route, Sass Maor, downclimbing
Buhl route, Roda di Vael
Maestri-Baldessari route, Roda di Vael, downclimbing

d_ice

Ice climber

Tùrin

Jan 26, 2012 - 03:36am PT

For the 1000
....
it's late [cit.]

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 26, 2012 - 03:58am PT

bmacd and The cad,
thanks for your posts.

Reply to healyje:

You can keep attempting to justify it in the context of the times, but the broad opinion - at the time - was unequivocal in calling it an abortion.

I agree with you.
But let's analize who criticized Maestri's compressor route.
In first place the british. But the british, understandably, have always considered sacred every piece of rock because they have so little.
Secondly, Maestri's rivals, such as Mauri (a Bonatti's fellow). Who's goal was also to climb Cerro Torre.
Then, of course, Reinhold Messner. But he already belonged to a younger generation and he proved to be a climber with outstanding achievements in term of style and of performance.

Also Warren Harding was criticised for the bolts and his siege tactics. But nowadays, no serious climber would label his bolts as "insane". The number of bolts was not the same as in Compressor route. He didn't use a compressor. But El Cap was also more accessible than Cerro Torre and in addition he didn't have so much accumulated anger to push him to force the route using a compressor.
Nevertheless, we can criticize his style, but we also should be more understanding.

I think there is a very big difference between criticism and insult.
I accept criticism and it helps to constructively pursue purer and cleaner styles in climbing. But hammering an historical climber, such as Maestri, and his bolts as an expression of insanity and with a systematic campaign, it's too beyond the limit, in my view. And also a demostration of ignorance and lack of respect towards the times when Maestri lived.

monaco

climber

marseille (FR) - parma (IT)

Jan 26, 2012 - 05:19am PT

great posts enzolino! beyond folks...

maybe cause italians have at leats 2700 years of history...and northamericans less then 500...it seems that our judgment for things that belong to the past is really different.

compressor route WAS a bad route...all right!
but compressor route WAS an historical route, son of the practice, controversy and heritage of ITS time.

40 years for chopping the bolts are TOO MUCH.
this work should be done suddenly (after at maximum 5/10 years...10 because patagonia WAS a remote region) by the climbers of THAT time.

40 years are one fourth of the whole history of climbing mountain!
a 40 years old route is part of climbing history, not something that can be arbitrary change.

history is not always good, compressor route WAS NOT a good example of ''by fair means'' ascent also for a great part of the '70 climbers.
nevertheless has become a piece of history.

history, good or bad, must not be simply erased when different judgments come...history must always be preserved for future memory, for underlining the great things done by our ancestral parents, and for fixing in our minds the great errors they did.
changing history is simply called ''revisionism''.

nani gigantum humeris insidentes

we are like dwarfs on the shoulders of giants, so that we can see more than they, and things at a greater distance, not by virtue of any sharpness of sight on our part, or any physical distinction, but because we are carried high and raised up by their giant size

and for the people who cited Monnalisa (and not Mona Lisa), please remember:

"Queste mani hanno restaurato le cattedrali di Pisa, Lucca, Firenze... Di chi sei figlio tu ??? Noi siamo i figli, dei figli, dei figli di Michelangelo e Leonardo; di chi sei figlio tu ?"

These hands restructured the cathedrals of Pise, Lucca and Florence! Whose sons are you? We are the sons of the sons of the sons of Michelangelo and Leonardo! Whose sons are you?

cheers,
matteo.

Jean Gurtorju

climber

land of echoes

Jan 26, 2012 - 05:28am PT

"I think there is a very big difference between criticism and insult.
I accept criticism and it helps to constructively pursue purer and cleaner styles in climbing. But hammering an historical climber, such as Maestri, and his bolts as an expression of insanity and with a systematic campaign, it's too beyond the limit, in my view. And also a demostration of ignorance and lack of respect towards the times when Maestri lived."

Thank you enzolino, thank you.

RESPECT, forgotten word

monaco

climber

marseille (FR) - parma (IT)

Jan 26, 2012 - 05:28am PT

furthermore...''by fair means'' has for me a strict meaning:

-leave the ground only with ''crack things'' (nuts, friends, pitons, etc..)

-climb in a place where there are NOT bolt or spit that ''could'' be not used (but ''in the case of'' they are there for helping us!)

-using five spits for ''intermediate'' protections and spits/bolts at the belays is definitely NOT ''by fair means''

we cannot adapt the rules of the game to our higher/lower capability...the rules must be chosen once, and before playing.

no bolt means no bolt...not that 5 spits ( + belays!!!) is ok, and 360 (within belays) is bad...all the rest are merely ''smart talks''.

cheers,
matteo.

ezy

Mountain climber

Italy

Jan 26, 2012 - 05:31am PT

Great post Monaco, I agree with you...

Maestri’s style and motivations, which in a certain sense can be considered indefensible, may be disputable, but they are part of the anarchy which is inherent in the wandering in the mountains and somehow has always been innate in alpinism.

It’s just because of this anarchy, this freedom, that we should not overcriticize – just to stay on the Cerro Torre or the Torre Egger issue – the “siege” routes opened in several seasons, or those done entirely with fixed ropes, with the compressor or also aluminium boxes.

The boundary between tradition and innovation, between modernity and experience of the past is not well defined. And anyway, a severe ethical judgement should never exempt from alpinistic and human respect, towards those who preceded us.

K & K: Shame!!!

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 26, 2012 - 05:36am PT

I think there is a very big difference between criticism and insult.

Criticism would be complaining the route is too difficult and walking away. Insult is drilling your way up the rock instead. It is entirely artless.

And respect? The issue of respect comes down to how you prioritize respecting the man or the mountain - his disrespect of the mountain was not done without a serious cost to his reputation, and that's as it should be.

ezy

Mountain climber

Italy

Jan 26, 2012 - 05:49am PT

@ Rolo Garibotti

Who authorizes you to change the names of place names (toponymy)??

The Colle della Conquista (Col of Conquest) is so called from more than 50 years and and not as the Egger-Torre Col the way you like ....

or perhaps you've read and learned from Buscaini??

For example, the toponymy Col de Lux I do not like it at all. We change it??

grazie mille !!!

http://alpinesketches.wordpress.com/2012/01/23/pataclimb-when-toponymy-hides-a-crusade/

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Jan 26, 2012 - 05:52am PT

K & K: Shame!!!

the lads were only the executors

most of the shame should be addressed to the instigator, maybe someone that is trying to systematically rewrite history to his own purposes?

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 26, 2012 - 05:59am PT

Criticism would be complaining the route is too difficult and walking away. Insult is drilling your way up the rock instead. It is entirely artless.

And respect? The issue of respect comes down to how you prioritize respecting the man or the mountain - his disrespect of the mountain was not done without at a serious cost to his reputation and that's as it should be.

I would agree with you up to a certain point.

The perception of respect towards the rock depends on the geography and on the historical period. In Dolomite there were billion of tons of virgin rock, and to fix bolts was just one way to progress along a line.
Even Reinhold Messner, in his articles, didn't make of bolting an ecological issue, but an ethical one.
The british, on the contrary, were already more sensitive towards the respect of the rock also as a consequence of their highly anthropized land, and the scarcity of rock. This is why they called the Compressor's route a "rape".

Even Yosemite pioneers, could not predict that their pitons could damage the cracks so seriously, and only in the last two decades climbers were encouraged to climb hammerless.

As you can see, the perception of respect changes with time. Perhaps for Maestri was not such a big deal. But the criticism against him damaged seriously his reputation, and it was also functional to promote a more respectful and ethical styles.

But now we are in 2012.
More than 40 years later.
And we should have a wider perspective and understanding of the pioneers of the past, even if their were not so ethical and respectful a posteriori.

On the contrary, who, in recent times, used 200 kg aluminium boxes, and throw them on the glacier, but applauding because some bolts have been removed. Those are the irrespectful and hypocrit people!

Kinobi

climber

Jan 26, 2012 - 06:22am PT

@ Conrad Anker: did you clean all fixed ropes on Badlands?

@ Bruce: you wrote "concensus": it was a meeting host by Argentinians and there were climbers from 9 countries.

Best
E

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Jan 26, 2012 - 06:32am PT

read this, I thought it deserved a translation :-)

Hospital of Stallavena, for the young of the past time.

HoS "Hello, what's your name?"
Rolo "What is this?"
HoS "a microphone... "
R "Ok, you can use it"
HoS "Ahem! So sure. Listen may I interview you?"
R "Maestri, son of f*#king bitch ... is this not a bolt? Huh?"
HoS "No, look, it's a microphone, keep quiet"
R "You bastards italians, drilling all my mountains, Mestri's farrata everywhere, look this route ... chop my f*#king as#@&%es Italians"
HoS "I do not think Maestri has ever come here, however this is a crag pride and joy of Italy, and comfortable rest for the old climber ... but hey you do?"
R "F*#king bastards Italians, I change the name of this route to" Italian's ferrata, Maestri suck my dick, idiot stroooooooonzi climbers' "
HoS "Holy Mother, one of the most serious cases. I thougth you were younger..."
R "What's this?"
HoS "I told you, is a microphone ..."
R "and why you use it here? Huh?"
HoS "Mr. Garibotti, I'm trying to interview you, you're considered an expert of Patagonia and honors us with his presence. On big walls you're definitely a great Maestr...(*) "
R "MAESTRI, son of f*#king bitch, HEY MAESTRI DO YOU See This? SO PUT YOUR BOLTS IN YOUR ASS"
HoS "No wait!, you can't just take my microphone for this, stop, please don't do it!"
R "AHAHAAHHAHAH! MAESTRI ... ah, oh f*#k! Please chop this bolt from my ..."
HoS "It's a microphone"
R "Drilling"
NDS "Wait, at least I turn it off"

(*) Maestro = Teacher, Master

giggio

climber

Milano, Italy

Jan 26, 2012 - 06:34am PT

Looks like many people pay attention only to the sentences and the posts they can reply and use to demonstrate their own point of view.
We're not here to decide if Maestri's compressor route has been good or not: I think most of us could agree it was done in a poor style, with little respect for the mountain and a very big ego statement.
And I think most of the people complainting for the bolt chopping are not Maestri's fan, and don't like the compressor route.
But as many others said - not so far from one hundred of time I guess - the point is that everything must be put in its own context in order to be evaluated, and most of all we cannot judge something has been done decades ago only with our own criteria. Moreover, a few persons cannot decide if it's the case to keep or to delete it.
Yes, it's true: even in Maestri's time his style was criticized, but nobody thought it was the case to go up and delete his line.
As Drugo said: if something similar to the compressor route would be done now many of us would agree to go up and chop everything; but doing something similar on an 40-year-old route is a nonsense.
There are many many things around the world, done in the past, that now appear ugly to many people: are we going to blow up everything or maybe is better to leave something - even if we don't like it - as a mark of the past?

Jean Gurtorju

climber

land of echoes

Jan 26, 2012 - 06:39am PT

The indignation at the reckless action of K & K expands. Here's an article on Grimper, an important French magazine.

http://www.grimper.com/news-chronique-jean-pierre-banville-points-ligner

Chronique de Jean-Pierre Banville : Points à la ligne…
JP Banville

Dans une chronique récente, j’ai abordé l’importance de conserver notre héritage collectif. Moi, j’ai des bacs pleins de souvenirs qui encombrent le sous-sol et dont mon fils se fera un plaisir de mettre à la rue à la seconde suivant mon décès. D’autres ne gardent strictement rien de leur vie, de vraies nomades qui, comme les nomades, disparaitront du souvenir de l’humanité un peu comme s’ils n’avaient jamais existé.
Je lis avec la plus grande consternation que deux grimpeurs américains se sont décidés, à la suite d’une ascension réussie du Cerro Torre, à couper 102 points de la fameuse et historique Voie du Compresseur réalisée par Maestri en 1970.

Est-ce le manque d’oxygène? La Folie des Grandeurs? L’illusion de leur propre importance?
Ces excellents grimpeurs ont détruit volontairement une voie historique qui a marqué l’alpinisme. Ces sombres personnages ont détruit notre passé… encore que, sombres… je lis qu’ils avaient en main, lors de leur arrestation, les 102 points en question! J’ai coupé pas mal de points dans ma vie et jamais il ne me serait venu à l’idée de les conserver ce qui me fait dire qu’il y a anguille sous roche.
On ne parle pas ici de pitons servant de tire-clou dans une voie ridicule du fin-fond de la Patagonie. On parle de la Voie du Compresseur !!!
On va me rétorquer que cette ferraille allait tomber un jour ou l’autre. La Vénus de Milo retombera aussi en poussière un de ces jours ce qui n’est pas une raison valable pour la découper menue!
Le nom des illuminés? Jason Kruk et Hayden Kennedy…
Kruck est Canadien, un déshonneur. Kennedy est commandité par Patagonia ce qui me donne le goût de ne plus jamais acheter un seul item portant ce logo. On lit sur Rock and Ice que les deux personnages ‘’are so Badass it blows my mind’’.
La stupidité humaine n’a pas de borne!
Et en prime, les gars ont mousquetonné cinq points en allant au sommet mais ont quand même réussi ‘’by fair means’’ ( ? ) justifiant ainsi d’effacer un pan entier de notre histoire. Je voudrais hurler!!!!!!!!
Ces représentants de l’espèce humaine me dégoutent. C’est de la même mouture que les gens qui ont pillé les musées en Irak ou en Afghanistan – leur héritage en propre et la fierté de leur nation - , ceux qui violent les tombes en Chine et en Amérique du Sud, ceux qui saccagent les temples et les églises.
Aucune justification éthique ne peut valider cet acte. Feraient-ils la même chose sur le Nose?
Je suis pour un boycott de Patagonia… et qu’on retire leur diplôme de guides, à ces zozos…
Étrange que cette affaire arrive cette semaine. Car elle touche Maestri et moi, Maestri, je lui ai toujours donné le bénéfice du doute. Comme je donne le bénéfice du doute à tout le monde, quel que soit la réalisation. Chilam Balam et tout et tout. C’est une question d’honneur et ça vient des racines anglo-saxonnes du sport. Je lis beaucoup de blogs, des blogs de grimpeurs.
Mon arrêt mensuel sur celui d’une grimpeuse française bien connue m’a fait sursauter.
Je passe sur le fait que le style se rapproche des sermons de Bossuet que vous devez – bien sûr – connaître et qui est surprenant de lire sous la plume d’une jeune femme au début de la vingtaine.
Je passe plus difficilement sur le fait de cracher sur la presse de montagne…
J’équipe des falaises en plein désert – de glace – et ces falaises sont secrètes. Je ne me vante donc pas de mes performances à la perceuse car je ne suis ni commandité, ni glorifié sur le fil de presse. Je ne cherche pas la notoriété par ces œuvres.
Si je le faisais, je serais assez intelligent pour inviter amis, ennemis, presse et photographes lors de l’ouverture officielle. Personne ne pourrait contester la paternité de l’œuvre et je suis assez rigoureux pour endosser tous les écarts réels ou imaginés.
Alors pourquoi ‘’bitcher’’ – en bon québécois et à des années lumières de Bossuet - alors qu’il est si facile, lorsqu’on veut vivre sous les feux de la rampe et qu’on se doit aux commanditaires, d’être totalement transparent en tout temps?
Pourquoi ouvrir la porte au doute? Surtout que la grimpeuse en question est, selon moi, une des meilleures grimpeuses de notre époque! On ne peut vivre dans le clair-obscur et espérer des passe-droits que les autres n’ont pas.
Car je donne le bénéfice du doute à tous et à toutes mais il y a une crédibilité à ne pas perdre…
Une fois, deux fois, trois fois. De la transparence, que diable!
Et comme je parlais du style de mademoiselle qui ressemble à s’y méprendre à celui de Bossuet, voici une citation pertinente du grand homme :
« Le plus grand dérèglement de l'esprit, c'est de croire les choses parce qu'on veut qu'elles soient, et non parce qu'on a vu qu'elles sont en effet. »
Pour terminer sur une note sublime, Bossuet fut évêque de Condom ….

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 26, 2012 - 06:45am PT

New Age II

climber

Jan 26, 2012 - 06:54am PT

Chapeau... M. Jean-Pierre Banville

ezy

Mountain climber

Italy

Jan 26, 2012 - 06:55am PT

thank you, Jean Gurtorju.

Article by Jean-Pierre Banville is very interesting and I agree

molto gentile ;-)

The cad

climber

Does it matter, really?!?

Jan 26, 2012 - 07:13am PT

if something similar to the compressor route would be done now many of us would agree to go up and chop everything; but doing something similar on an 40-year-old route is a nonsense

This is the point.
I guess that nearly everybody agrees that Maestri made a mistake.
IMVHO K&K made a mistake too.

Also, I find that the argument about the "theft of the future" is pointless.
The whole history of climbing is about striving to climb harder, in better style, faster, lighter, and so on, than previous generations.
That's what happened (and it's still going on) on Torre, too.
How many future-stealing controversial routes are there in climbing history?
How many of them have been erased?

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Jan 26, 2012 - 08:18am PT

How many future-stealing controversial routes are there in climbing history?
How many of them have been erased?

the real question is how many of them, these brave two lads, have *unbolted* AT HOME, stating their own ethics, before going abroad to teach ethics to the natives?

*edited, bad english, sorry*

dags1972

Mountain climber

Alpicella

Jan 26, 2012 - 08:47am PT

Good question uli!

d_ice

Ice climber

Tùrin

Jan 26, 2012 - 09:05am PT

Yes, great Uli!

The cad

climber

Does it matter, really?!?

Jan 26, 2012 - 09:10am PT

uli, I believe that chopping the Compressor Route was wrong.

Who did it, frankly, doesn't matter: American, Canadian, Argentinean, Italian, or any self-appointed "local" or whoever.
It was wrong. Period.

BTW world is getting smaller and smaller: what does "AT HOME" mean?

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 26, 2012 - 09:13am PT

the real question is how many of them, these brave two lads, have chipped AT HOME, stating their own ethics, before going abroad to teach ethics to the natives?

That is NOT a good question. It is a poor inference that Hayden & Jason are route chippers.
A baseless debasing. Just as lame as the attempts to portray Rolo as an imperious Demi God. Try again.

Here is a question... Why do some Italian Climbers think American disrespect for the Compressor Route translates to disrespect of Italy, Italians and even Maestri's previous accomplishments.

Conrad

climber

Jan 26, 2012 - 09:13am PT

@lovegasoline click on the image an a larger version shows up

@kinobi Jay Smith, Steve Gerberding and I climbed Badlands on Torre Egger during the summer of 94 - 95. We retreated in 93 after getting weathered off. We left the ropes we used in place and came back two seasons later and completed the route. We used our ropes and on the way down cleaned them. We gave them to a climber in Peurto Natales. Thanks for asking and I'm as guilty as Maestri for using technology to ascend mountains. The line of what is acceptable changes with each generation. New meets old in a Titanic clash.

edit: We placed three 1/4 inch (6mm) bolts.

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Jan 26, 2012 - 09:15am PT

Some matters that should be held apart.

Maestri as a climber: He was an excellent climber for his time. I have heard Norwegian climbers who were pushing the limits of what was possible in Norway at the time, and who saw him climbing in the Dolomites, tell a story about one of the strongest and best climbers they have ever seen.

The bolting of the Compressor route on CT: Leo Dickinson is telling the story.

The chopping of the Compressor route by K&K. My view: If doing this was an action growing from their own inner conviction, I think their action was fair enough if they accept the consequences they are now experiencing. Not good if they were primarily errandboys who have been talked into doing what they did by older climbers with a conviction. If so, I guess they are now having a steep learning curve.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Jan 26, 2012 - 09:17am PT

a question, even more interesting, arise from the *obvious* answer => 0 <= to the previous:

WHO "suggested" the two reckless lad to act that way?

maybe someone who was not brave enough to follow facts after his words?

shame on him!

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Jan 26, 2012 - 09:21am PT

@philo

why that exact bolt ladder of the many hundreds in the world? why abroad? why not starting at home to show "the way" to us all to follow?

why don't you understand that is the double measure, not the *unbolting*, that is disturbing?

*edited*

giggio

climber

Milano, Italy

Jan 26, 2012 - 09:24am PT

philo:

Here is a question... Why do some Italian Climbers think American disrespect for the Compressor Route translates to disrespect of Italy, Italians and even Maestri's previous accomplishments.

I think this isn't a good question as well.
Some Italian (and also many non-Italian climbers) think (I... uh... ehm... chopped! the word "American" because I think the nationality of the climbers who did that doesn't really matter) translate disrespect for the Compressor Route not only to disrespect of Italy, Italians and Maestri's previous accomplishments (which could be quite a limited matter), but to disrespect of mountain, history, and people in general (which is by far a greater topic).

The cad

climber

Does it matter, really?!?

Jan 26, 2012 - 09:25am PT

That is NOT a good question. It is a poor inference that Hayden & Jason are route chippers.

Come on philo, uli meant "chopped", not "chipped"... it was a typo.
However I reckon his question is not a good question (see my reply above).

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 26, 2012 - 09:26am PT

I think of "chipping" as breaking and making holds for easier climbing. Like the infamous travesty of the Jardine Traverse.
You may have been referring to "chipping" as pulling bolts.
Perhaps I was confused by your meaning.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Jan 26, 2012 - 09:28am PT

@the cad

I see your points and, and I can agree, but I can't refrain to think about the imperialistic attitudes of yankees, their way to go abroad kick everybody's ass (and not even being imputable as in the Cermis case) can't go out of my mind

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Jan 26, 2012 - 09:30am PT

@philo you're right

sorry my english is bad

i meant removing bolts

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Jan 26, 2012 - 09:37am PT

@giggio

you should remember the context:

the two lads didn't act in the void

Rolo obsessive campaign against Maestri and that precise bold ladder is the context

ezy

Mountain climber

Italy

Jan 26, 2012 - 09:46am PT

@Conrad Anker

Thank you for your fairness and good response to Kinobi.

Badlands is a beautiful line (particularly Century Crack ...)

Too bad for all the fixed ropes (as well as the Slovenians used massively on Torre Egger) and I think with a repetition would be a fitting tribute.

thanks

http://alpinesketches.wordpress.com/2011/04/08/le-linee-effimere-della-torre-egger/

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 26, 2012 - 09:47am PT

I see your points and, and I can agree, but I can't refrain to think about the imperialistic attitudes of yankees, their way to go abroad kick everybody's ass (and not even being imputable as in the Cermis case) can't go out of my mind

And you know Uli you shouldn't. America under Bush behaved badly the world over.
Not all Americans are warmongering imperialists. I am not and I am pretty sure Hayden is not. And that Kruk dude is Canadian and you know what they say about the Cannucks.
More Americans than you know have regretted the lousy actions of our earlier rogue government. I fought against the Bush Neo-Cons and their despicable agenda from the very beginning. I was labeled an anti-patriot and worse because of my opposition. Even from my own Republican Father. Some of us Americans believe it is important, vital even, to stand for what we believe in, accepting responsibility for our actions, and speak truth to power.
This "Yank Down" of Maestri's "Pressure Pins" is not really a symptom of aggressive imperialism by North Americans. Though in all honesty, I can easily see why it could be interpreted that way.

I do think too much of the reactions on both sides to this controversial subject are passion driven and without sufficient evidence or information to form a proper judgement.

Uli, none of this happened in a void without context. The Context has been known for decades.
Hayden is from what i've heard exceptional well versed in the history and the context of Patagonian climbing. So is Rolo. But to assume that Rolo played the role of Svengalli and pressured K&K to do his dirty work is absurd. That is not the Rolando I know. Nor does it sound like Jason or Hayden would be easily made pawns of. They decide for themselves only.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Jan 26, 2012 - 09:57am PT

@philo, obviuoisly you're right, even if the sad Cermis episode happened under Clinton's Presidency

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalese_cable_car_disaster_(1998);

(I remember as I was in DC then)

Having been there for quite a while I know that Mr Bush is only one facet of the dice, however you should know that is the gut and not the brain that rules feelings, so you should deal with your imperialistic fame, true or pretended that it may be.

I want to state also that, was it done in a COMPLETELY different way (read with a shared consensus) I would have persoannly agreed with the unbolting of the ladders

it is the forcing of the action, the fact that happened there, the fact that there is a notorious instigator, lots of other facts that sounds disturbing for me

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 26, 2012 - 10:01am PT

I can not argue that a consensus of approval would have been preferable.

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Jan 26, 2012 - 10:09am PT

John M. and Conrad A. I really loved those photos. I could have gone down with Bridwell when he made his probable 1st complete ascent of the Compressor Route but had some jive excuse and have kicked myself ever since. Cerro Torre has to be the most spectacular granite formation on earth.

Also, he said: I can't refrain to think about the imperialistic attitudes of yankees, their way to go abroad kick everybody's ass.

I think you have probably seen the last of this in Iraq. Word on the street is that a big ass kicking incursion basically bankrupts whoever does it and once we get out of Afghanistan, congress will likely never sanction another foreign war unless . . . The Imperialist mindset is problematic, for sure.

JL

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 26, 2012 - 10:12am PT

Oh John,,, (head wagging in disbelief)... You had the chance and didn't go!?!? WTF man, WTF?
Kick yourself again!

You coulda been somebody, you coulda been a contender! Now look atch yas rollin around on a bike with only one wheel. HAHAHA :-)
Much respect.

ionlyski

Trad climber

Kalispell, Montana

Jan 26, 2012 - 10:21am PT

Bump-from Mr P

**How is that any climber, if we take the word to imply love and respect for the mountains, can reconcile and justify a compressor suspended by cables, in one of the most remote and beautiful ranges on earth, to be "history that needs to be preserved" ?

All the arguments about choice, locals making decisions, respect for the first climbers, etc hide behind the moral relativism typical of those who are not directly affected by something, never having to draw a line between right and wrong.

Jason and Hayden had the balls to do more than an outstanding climb: they took a stand to undo some of the harm inflicted by an egotistical maniac, in search of personal glory. Maestri perpetrated one of the biggest atrocities in the history of climbing. Finally, some vindication**

ionlyski

Trad climber

Kalispell, Montana

Jan 26, 2012 - 10:26am PT

And another way to summarize taken from upthread

__I think it's bad for Americans to be chopping routes in other countries as if they own the place.

and

I think it's bad for Italians to be bolting routes in other countries as if they own the place.__

Kinobi

climber

Jan 26, 2012 - 10:34am PT

With reference:
"@kinobi Jay Smith, Steve Gerberding and I climbed Badlands on Torre Egger during the summer of 94 - 95. We retreated in 93 after getting weathered off. We left the ropes we used in place and came back two seasons later and completed the route. We used our ropes and on the way down cleaned them. We gave them to a climber in Peurto Natales. Thanks for asking and I'm as guilty as Maestri for using technology to ascend mountains. The line of what is acceptable changes with each generation. New meets old in a Titanic clash."

Yes, I know. I was one of the Italians meeting your the day after you finished the route in El Chalten. We met again the following Outdoor retailer in summer.
I feel you are no guilty for anyting, but while you were one of the few actually having done something "clean" in Patagonia, I just wanted to be very sure you were not talking sh#t, but acthing poo-poo.
Just in case...
I hope to have clearly expressed my thoughts.

Un fortunately I am seing many climbers having done "not so clean" ascents there, and talking loads of sh#t.

@I only Ski
With reference to
"
I think it's bad for Italians to be bolting routes in other countries as if they own the place.__ "

Well, many italians placed many bolts anywhere. It does not mean that all Italians places bolts everywhere. Yes, I did placed 525 bolts in Madagascar (but I was with Swiss and French... So they don't count...)

Best,
Emanuele Pellizzari

ionlyski

Trad climber

Kalispell, Montana

Jan 26, 2012 - 10:53am PT

Hi Emanuele,
My only point is to show two basic sides that I don't feel can ever be resolved.

Cheers,
Arne

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 26, 2012 - 11:11am PT

It's interesting that certain posters keep bringing up the 1970s ethics in the Dolomites as justification for Maestri's actions. Well, the prevailing ethic among most modern alpinists (of all backgrounds and nationalities) is to climb fast-and-light using as few bolts as possible (preferably none).

Why is it acceptable for the ethics and practices of the Dolomites to be exported to foreign countries in the 1970s but not acceptable for the prevailing modern ethic that is practiced is almost all current alpine climbing regions to be taken to its extremes (the removal of bolts)?

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Jan 26, 2012 - 11:21am PT

To the apologists of Maestri: Your attempts to paint this as an act of political terrorism targeting Italian history is baseless, tired, exasperating, and ruining this conversation. This has nothing to do with Italy. At all.

Regarding removal of bolts, and since you brought up Italy: Here is Naples in 2010: . Looks like some pretty solid stewardship. Don't worry, Naples isn't a historic site or anything. At this point at least the garbage is historic. Are they going to have a vote about that? What if two North Americans came and started cleaning up that pile? So, maybe consider that, and then we can talk about bolts.

Regarding the democratic vote in Chalten: All I have to say is voting resulted in George Bush and Silvio Berlusconi. Voting, even on a large "democratic" scale, can result in incorrect and unpopular outcomes. Consensus and majority are overrated. The best argument should win, regardless of numbers.

Regarding the number of bolts used on old routes in the Dolomites as the "standard of the time": Is this supposed to be a justification? It's not as though that style was necessary or cutting edge. I've heard a lot here about Maestri's futuristic talent as a rock climber in his day. Well, in Colorado anyway, climbers in the 1950s and 1960s, including Layton Kor for example, were climbing 300-meter alpine faces using minimal aid, leaving almost nothing behind, maybe one or two bolts on the whole route. There are no bolt ladders on The Diamond or in the Black Canyon, our proudest big faces. The Dolomitic tradition of maximum aid and fixed gear has really never been modern. You are citing examples of the worst climbing style of the day to justify further use of that style. And clean climbing ethics didn't originate in the USA: Paul Preuss was climbing in clean, good style, in the Alps, often solo, and writing about it, 60 years before Maestri did the Compressor Route. So don't act like his bolting style was "modern" in a historical context.

WBraun

climber

Jan 26, 2012 - 11:31am PT

Give it up guys.

Turning this into politics is stupid.

Let the Italians bitch and moan all they want.

This thread has only about 50 posts worth anything anyways and the rest is just typical over and over again the same back and forth supertopo bitch and moan drool.

Like little old ladies that need to yap yap yap and go on forever ...

gimmeslack

Trad climber

Jan 26, 2012 - 11:36am PT

At least no one has posted ponies yet :-o

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 26, 2012 - 11:39am PT

@Werner: "This thread has only about 50 posts worth anything anyways and the rest is just typical over and over again the same back and forth supertopo bitch and moan drool."

50/1100 is actually a pretty good signal-to-noise ratio!

I remember one WOS thread that was way longer and had about two posts worth reading, one from Richard and one from Ammon (not coincidentally, both were only about the climbing and the experience and had nothing to do with the controversy and bitchfest).

If nothing else, the existence of this thread has been worth it to get the perspective and stories from Carlos Comesana, Leo Dickinson, John, Conrad, Steve, and others who have been up there and climbed.

ezy

Mountain climber

Italy

Jan 26, 2012 - 11:40am PT

At least no one has posted ponies yet :-o

marty(r)

climber

beneath the valley of ultravegans

Jan 26, 2012 - 11:48am PT

Movie night?
Leo Dickinson:
http://www.adventurearchive.com/data/film_library_mountains_patagonia.htm

Werner Herzog:
[Click to View YouTube Video]

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 26, 2012 - 11:50am PT

Nobody said that it was acceptable to export Dolomite's ethics - which, by the way, was quite heterogeneous - elsewhere.
But as a matter of fact, climbers have always exported what they learned in their pioneering enterprises.

What has been said is that the set up of bolt ladders was one of the ethics from where Cesare Maestri was coming from.
It was mentioned to contextualize Maestri's style used for the Compressor route, to object against the accusation of "insanity" specifically expressed by Rolando Garibotti and Colin Haley.
Accusation that, in my opinion, represents an unacceptable lack of respect towards Maestri.

What is a different issue, is to use a new ethic, a new style, on old historical routes.
Lynn Hill had even to apologize because she removed a piton, to be able to climb the Nose free.
Alex Honnold, Alex Huber, Hansjorg Auer did not remove one single bolt or piton just because they freesoloed the HD NW Regular route, the Hasse Brandler or the Fish, respectively.
So, why K&K, who did use the Maestri's bolts in the belays, felt the right to chop the Compressor's bolts, even when previous assemblies expressed a negative vote, or the locals were against this decision?

For whom is scandalized by label "boys" ... I don't know their age ... but when I see their picture or a video like this one how am I supposed to call them?

http://vimeo.com/13831211

"Boys" is not an insult.
But if you tell me their age I can orienteer myself ... maybe teenagers is more appropriate ... thank you ...

mr-p

Trad climber

Invisible City

Jan 26, 2012 - 12:05pm PT

Affixing a monster size compressor to a mountain permanently, machine bolting unnecessarily right and left is the unacceptable lack of respect for the mountain, the environment and the community.

The fact that the practice was somewhat acceptable in the Dolomites, does not make it right. It does speak about what exactly is meant by "ethics". New or old, ethics mean the same thing. Moral principles and duty.

One would have to choose his idols more carefully.

monaco

climber

marseille (FR) - parma (IT)

Jan 26, 2012 - 12:12pm PT

I don't write ''italian do it better'' or ''Dolomites were the land of bolt ladders'' (it is absolutely not true...only a little part during a short periods...whom partially Maestri belongs).

I've said that destroying a controversial but nevertheless historic route means denying the history...means doing ''revisionism''.
destroying the, good or bad, history it is never a good choice...means to deny and not to improve.

do you want to minimize the Maestri's ''effort''...do it better!

Ragni did !

several parties after did...slowing reducing the number of fixed ropes and bolts along the NEW lines

climb ''by fair means''...that means any bolt, any bolted belay

climbing a nearby line, using five bolts + belays and chopping (rappelling from bolts) the bolts of an historical, 40 years old (may be hugly and controversial) route it is not ''pushing the limits of climbing...it is vandalism''

formally sustaining this action, with all the power of a web-site, social forum and its image of good alpinst...and not doing that by himself and pushing two young foreign men to do that is beggar and cowardly

cheers,
matteo.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 26, 2012 - 12:21pm PT

I suggest you to look at Cumbre ... the first solo ascent of the Compressor's route of Marco Pedrini ... one of the best climbing movies ever made ...

At a certain point he rides the Compressor, wears the sun glasses ... and starts to play as he was on a motorbike ...
... too cool!!!

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 26, 2012 - 12:22pm PT

What is a different issue, is to use a new ethic, a new style, on old historical routes.

The issue with the compressor is not, and never has been, the imposition of a 'new ethic'. It is rather about a much delayed application of the prevailing ethic of the day. That, and what divides us in this discussion is differing perceptions of whether the route is indeed 'historic' to be preserved, or a continuing blight on a beautiful mountain to be removed.

monaco

climber

marseille (FR) - parma (IT)

Jan 26, 2012 - 12:24pm PT

for those who posted a picture of Naples' garbage...

I would like to remember that Napoli raised his first splendor during the ''Magna Grecia'' period of southern Italy...when your ''native americans'' (that you kindly erased in the name of progress) probably start to develops agriculture (they didn't!).

Napoli gained still more power and richness during the subsequent periods (Roman, Middle-Age, Renaissance...had you got renaissance?...when Antonello da Messina was working in Napoli what were your ancestral fathers painting...cave walls?!?)

Napoli gained its maximum splendor during the 17th and 18th centuries leaving at the world some of the most magnificent Baroque churches and buildings.

nearly 50 years of ''depression'' for Napoli means nothing compared to its millenarian history...they will pass soon.
I can image that for an American 50 years means ''a lot of time''...may be a quarter of the whole history of the young US...here, in the ''old continent'' are nothing...

cheers,
matteo.

p.s.

this is evidently a provocation...that simply means
''don't discuss about american or italian history, society and life...discuss about the actions done by K&K and why some people (and not nations) like them, and some other people (and not nations) don't like them...even if they definitely don't like the Maestri route on CT''

don't die of ignorance!...please ;-)

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 26, 2012 - 12:29pm PT

You might be right.
The point is that many climbers want to keep the bolts there.
Many other climbers wanted to remove them.

K&K were the last "guys" who had the right to remove them.
They were not locals.
They used Maestri's bolts.
So, who the hell they think they are to summit Cerro Torre and then decide to remove the bolts on the way down.

But what is worse for me, in my opinion, is that their action is a consequence of a systematic, unfair and insulting campaign against Cesare Maestri, performed especially by Rolando Garibotti.

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Jan 26, 2012 - 12:33pm PT

I've said that destroying a controversial but nevertheless historic route means denying the history

The route's still there. Lama just climbed it. It's just cleaner now.

Napoli gained still more power end richness during the subsequent periods (Roman, Middle-Age, Renaissance...had you got renaissance?...when Antonello da Messine worked in Napoli what were your ancestral fathers painting...cave walls?!?)

Exactly. And yet it still got covered in garbage over some petty disputes. And everyone just lives with it.

By the way, Cerro Torre predates all of human history.

I can image that for an American 50 years means ''a lot of time''...may be a quarter of the whole history of the young US...here, in the ''old continent'' are nothing...

Exactly. The bolts are 42 years old. Not exactly historic on an Italian time scale.

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jan 26, 2012 - 12:34pm PT

This whole thing has become a bore - yesterday's news.

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber

Joshua Tree

Jan 26, 2012 - 12:39pm PT

My nephew sh#t on the floor yesterday. We've decided to never clean it up, because you know that would be erasing history...or something.

monaco

climber

marseille (FR) - parma (IT)

Jan 26, 2012 - 12:45pm PT

dear snorky,

people in the alps started to climb mountain more or less when US born.

40 years for the ''climbing history'' are a lot of time...compressor route, that I don't like, WAS an historical route.

I've chopped a lot of bolts/spits during my climbing life...nevertheless I've never thought to chop the spits/bolts posed by my ''fathers''.
it is/was too late for doing that.

the bolds on the compressor route should be removed by climbers contemporary of Maestri...not after 40 years (rappelling from them!) by two young men.

cheers,
matteo.

abisharat

climber

Jan 26, 2012 - 12:55pm PT

Hayden and Jason's official statement:

http://rockandice.com/news/1787-cerro-torre-update-official-statement-from-hayden-kennedy-and-jason-kruk

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Jan 26, 2012 - 12:59pm PT

I think that accusing Kennedy and Kruk of disrespecting and insulting Maestri and his "routes" - and by association, Italians - is an inverse of the original debacle.

If there is anything sacred in climbing, it's the honor system and the trust we place in climbers the world over, that when they say they did this or that route on this or that formation, their word is golden, is the plain truth and nobody has the right to question it, trusting as we all are that we simply don't lie to each other when it comes to historical achievements.

Maestri's claim that he and Toni Egger climbed Cerro Torre in 1959 has been widely written off as an outright fraud by (other Italians, correct??) those who did climb the line decades later. By claiming to have bagged the most fantastic climbing accomplishment of the era, up the most sensational rock formation of ALL time, was to shatter the trust we willingly grant all climbers. This false claim was in fact an insult to the history of mountaineering and everyone who ever tied into a rope. CM took us for fools. And rather than come clean and make amends, he continues to perpetuate what ranks as one of the greatest shams in the history of adventuring, second, perhaps, only to the North Pole controversy.

What's more, Maestri returns to the Torre in 1970, and in what many consider to be a manifest sacrilege, drills his way up the great peak and, once again, gives the impression that he climbed the formation, only for us to learn from Jim Bridwell that Maestri bailed 100 or so feet from the shelf beneath the ice mushroom - meaning he failed once more and wove a fancy tale around it, giving most of us the impression that he had made the 2nd ascent of the peak, when in fact he had never climbed the mountain at all.

By any definition, CM bungled this thing handsomely. The result of the original sham per his alleged 1959 ascent, and his consequent desecration of the mountain with a gas powered drill, has fashioned an awkward, ugly and scandalous situation unique in modern climbing. It's a f*#king mess that embarrasses us all and makes me feel crazy and sad. The very last thing I want to ever do is question a climber's word - be they Italian, American or Mexican. It's just not how things are supposed to work within our fellowship of the rope.

Given the above, it is remarkable to me that anyone, Italian or otherwise, would seek to defend CM's "legacy," or to grant the compressor route special status as a "historical" effort. While Kennedy and Kruk's actions might be questionable to some, they utterly pale next to the ecological disrespect and the complete rupture of trust Maestri has perpetrated on the climbing world from the moment he set foot in Patagonia. His previous accomplishments, great as they are, are totally overshadowed by the dark cloud of Cerro Tore - and that is too damn bad, but he made his choices and he's sticking to them.

The entire CM/Cerro Torre saga must be one of the darkest and regrettable
situations in the history of adventuring. To defend it on "historical" grounds is, in my opinion, as pitiful and misguided as the original violations.

A peak as fantastic as Cerro Torre surely deserved better treatment and greater respect than all this.

JL

monaco

climber

marseille (FR) - parma (IT)

Jan 26, 2012 - 01:03pm PT

Thanks Stinkeye.

I was sure that also in the US, as in the rest of the world (I received messages from Italy, France, Swiss and Germany) people are not too happy for what was done in Patagonia...at least a part ''sage'' of people.

I think that during the next weeks/months more official positions will appear (climbing editors, alpine clubs, ''important'' climbers that for the moment are reflecting...).

The problem is also that for a part of the climbing community the only information channels are the Rolo web site (that is re-visioning also the local and historical toponomy!! erasing what is not coherent with his own ''new history'')...and the un-respectful affirmations of Colin (''Maestri insanity''!!??).

It is important to show to the ignorants (original meaning...those who ignore) that exist a part (majority??) of often ''silent'' people that DO NOT AGREE...and that the history (and the life!) are nor black or white...

Black or white are ok for judge OUR present climbing activity...not what happens 40 years ago!

Have a nice evening (...for me is evening ;-) )
Matteo.

monaco

climber

marseille (FR) - parma (IT)

Jan 26, 2012 - 01:12pm PT

''If there is anything sacred in climbing''

...mavacagher!!! == shit!!

I am a climber...I consider the way I climb (by fair means...any bolts, any bolted belay!) far more important than what I climb

nevertheless I'm sage enough to say that climbing is a mere game and not a sacred religion.

using the far more important worlds of Rehinald Karl:
''the chalk is forbidden!!??...if I want I will recover the rock with jam!''

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Jan 26, 2012 - 01:13pm PT

Monaco

Cheers. I understand your sentiments, just mostly disagree. I hope you have a great dinner.

Something to contemplate in your sleep?
What if it had happened 28 years ago instead? What about 12? Still historic? Is it really the date that makes it historic? Or the action?

Maestri's actions were historic. The artifacts left behind are modern metal garbage.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 26, 2012 - 01:25pm PT

I honestly envy their human and climbing experience ...

I apologize with Rolando Garibotti for the accusation of sending the two boys to chop the route. I inferred that there were more connections between all of them. But it looks clear from their report that it was a decision taken there.

I think they wrote a lot of nonsense ...
Such as ...

Fair means does not mean no bolts. Reasonable use of bolts has been a long-accepted practice in this mountain range.

The Southeast Ridge was attainable by fair means in the 70s, he stole that climb from the future.

And from what I read in my view they are quite fanatic with zero respect for the past ... but as we know ... this is disputable ...

Well ... I think I'm too politically correct ...

THEY ARE TWO F*#KING IDIOTS!!!

Wade Icey

Trad climber

www.alohashirtrescue.com

Jan 26, 2012 - 01:27pm PT

f*#king Canadians think they own Italy...

Still unclear if they trundled the compressor...that would be so cool to see...

mika

Big Wall climber

Zurich, switzerland

Jan 26, 2012 - 01:30pm PT

Today even though the young Kennedy and Kruk belive to have done the right thing, they will go down in climbing history as the Cerro Torre Bolt Coppers, regardless of any future climbing, it's the negative aspect of chopping bolts that will stick.
So once again Cerro Torre strikes back and devides into winner and looser. The constructive winners being my dear friend Casimiro Ferrari, Rolo Garibotti and David Lama, the loosers being the destructive Maestri, Kennedy and Kruk.

mike schwitter

YoungGun

climber

North

Jan 26, 2012 - 01:31pm PT

This thread is getting boring. Same old sh#t over and over. Enzolino, you keep posting because you think we didn't hear you the first time?

JL is right. None of your opinions matter worth a damn. The bolts were chopped. Done. That's it. Does crying about it make you feel better?

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 26, 2012 - 01:34pm PT

Cerro Torre is a mountain that will change your life, it for sure did it to Cesare Maestri and will bring its share for Kennedy and Kruk.

After I climbed the compressor route in 1991, I took it as the proof that Maestri had not reached the summit with Egger, for no climber who had done the first clean ascent of such a beautiful mountain would have done such a thing as the compressor route. Today even though the young Kennedy and Kruk belive to have done the right thing, they will go down in climbing history as the "Cerro Torre Bolt Coppers", regardless of any future climbing, it's the negative aspect of chopping bolts that will stick.
So once again Cerro Torre strikes back and devides into winner and looser. The constructive winners being my dear friend Casimiro Ferrari, Rolo Garibotti and David Lama, the loosers being the destructive Maestri, Kennedy and Kruk.

mike

Wise and balanced comment ... mike ...

But I thought you lived in Rapperswil!
By the way ... do you think the Compressor route was a "ferrata"?

Kinobi

climber

Jan 26, 2012 - 01:34pm PT

@ Snorky

Sorry for some politics.
You posted a photo of Napoli. It shows how pretty ingnorant you are. "Ignorant"= don't know.

Napoli is 800 km away from my home, which in Europe could be 3 countries and 4 languages. I come from a part of Italy that had a Republic old 1100 years. Well, Republic only 600 years, as state 1100 years (zero counting is correct). We had independent language (still) for very long and last "foreign dominations" where french and a notch of germans.
Napoli had dominations of Spanish and does not share the same story as we do. Honestly speaking, even languages are different despite it's supposed to be the same.

If you compare Napoli in the way you did, to Italy, you can't offend me more. I am sure George W Bush, Ronald Reagan, or many other brilliant of your citizens, have a solution for Napoli, Italy did not had any, except acknoledge that it has the highest density of population in Europe. And Napoli is Napoli.

I will be glad to come and meet you in Carbondale, next time I am there. May be in Boulder.
And teach you something, because you look like a good bloke, and not the ignorant offensive guy that thought knew something.

I save you to post some photos of what your fellow citizens do/did almost anywhere.
Best,
E

mike m

Trad climber

black hills

Jan 26, 2012 - 01:39pm PT

That video by herzog is very cool. How do you rap off the top? With a bollard? Did K&K use Maestri's bolts for belays? I am assuming those bolts were left then.

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Jan 26, 2012 - 01:40pm PT

Reading the words of K&K in Rock and Ice is to me a bit disturbing. Their mentality and their level of reflection is not convincing. Words like rape and atrocity in connection with the bolts has no great ethical weight, and make the article a ST-like polemical one. As the years go by I hope K&K will reach a higher level of ethical reflection. When I read the article and the words they use I am not convinced that they have a higher level of ethical reasoning going on in their heads than Maestri had when he bolted his way up the route. To me it looks very much like self-righteous emotionally motivated hybris.

bergbryce

Mountain climber

South Lake Tahoe, CA

Jan 26, 2012 - 01:49pm PT

Kruk and Kennedey's statement and a very clear description of their new route. Well done gentlemen.

http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web12w/newswire-kruk-kennedy-statement

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 26, 2012 - 01:56pm PT

Great account of their climb, great statement, I loved every word of it.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Jan 26, 2012 - 02:04pm PT

@philo

But to assume that Rolo played the role of Svengalli and pressured K&K to do his dirty work is absurd. That is not the Rolando I know.

not the Rolo that is RE-writing the history, not the one that is RE-baptizing the toponomastic...

why not? why should not I think that one that is so clearly in bad faith can't do that?

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 26, 2012 - 02:09pm PT

You can think that way till the cows come home and you'd still be wrong.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Jan 26, 2012 - 02:11pm PT

I may be wrong but nevertheless he's an as#@&%e

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 26, 2012 - 02:14pm PT

No he is not. He is a friend and one of the humblest men I know.
You're not liking his take on things doesn't diminish his character.

Kinobi

climber

Jan 26, 2012 - 02:15pm PT

Interesting Philo.
Can you ask me to reply to my email regarding Torre Egger?
Thanks,
E

TwistedCrank

climber

Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom

Jan 26, 2012 - 02:23pm PT

Kruk:

We also used two of Maestri's original belays on the headwall. These were in spots in close-proximity to other natural anchor options. Believe us, we know how to build gear anchors. The fact that we were planning on leaving these bolts in anyways, meant it was too silly not to use them on the ascent.

Huh?

That reads like the had planned to chop before they had reached to top.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 26, 2012 - 02:30pm PT

Words like rape and atrocity in connection with the bolts has no great ethical weight, and make the article a ST-like polemical one. As the years go by I hope K&K will reach a higher level of ethical reflection.

Those words entirely and accurately reflect the outcome of Maestri's actions on Cerro Torre in 1970.

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Jan 26, 2012 - 02:33pm PT

"The fact that we were planning on leaving these bolts in anyways, meant it was too silly not to use them on the ascent."

I agree, this is a perplexing comment. The argument can be extended to any or all of the bolts.
[Once again (I claim), belays are part of climbing, too. And I say this with the memory of the many complex, time-consuming, often terrifying and uncomfortable boltless belays from my repertoire of big wall first ascents].

But quite a good piece of writing otherwise.

On the other hand...

"Never explain--your friends do not need it and your enemies will not believe it anyhow."

Elbert Hubbard

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 26, 2012 - 02:35pm PT

This is one of the best parts:

"As long as the hardware remained it was justification for the unreasonable use of bolts by others. We are part of the next generation, the young group of aspiring alpinists. This is a statement we felt other young alpinists needed to hear.

Our real feelings were confirmed by three young Argentine climbers we passed on the Torre Glacier while hiking out of the range. Their eyes lit up as they told us how inspired they were to climb on Cerro Torre now, to train harder, to be better. To rise up to the challenge that has been restored to the mountain. Two days later they would make a rare ascent of Aguja Standhardt, via Festerville. Respect."

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 26, 2012 - 02:39pm PT

Interesting Philo.Can you ask me to reply to my email regarding Torre Egger?
Thanks,
E

OK. Kinobi, I ask you to reply to your email regarding Torre Egger?

That's not what you probably meant.

Kimbo

Trad climber

seattle

Jan 26, 2012 - 02:41pm PT

After having read the Alpinist article from Hayden and Kruk, I am more troubled.

I really don't have the inclination to parse through, point by point, addressing everything i took issue with, but let's just say that it was a very shallow and poorly reflected attempt at justifying their actions.

And to open with the following:

"As a society we have removed other mistakes, like the Berlin Wall. History doesn't stop. History is happening right now. Hopefully the bolts are history someday." - Zach Smith

Surely the ignorance and hubris in the quote is apparent to everyone, regardless of their feelings about the bolt removal?

To have to young kids, yes KIDS, armed with the level of ignorance and poorly formed opinions that they obviously had, decide for the rest of the climbing community the fate of an historic climb, is rather saddening to say the least.

Kinobi

climber

Jan 26, 2012 - 02:41pm PT

Yes Philo. This is what I meant but mispelled. "ask him".

Best,
E

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 26, 2012 - 02:46pm PT

Then you will have to wait for his answer.

Kinobi

climber

Jan 26, 2012 - 02:51pm PT

"Then you will have to wait for his answer."

I am here to wait for his answer.
And, of course, since he now have a house not farther than 35 km from De Donà place, he might even go there to clarify his (Garibotti) claims. May be bringing some yourger punkers will help.
Best,
E

WBraun

climber

Jan 26, 2012 - 02:53pm PT

Kimbo -- "To have to young kids, yes KIDS, ... "

Are stupid or something?

They're not kids.

Now go sit in the corner and figure out why you are making a childish kids conclusion .....

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Jan 26, 2012 - 02:56pm PT

Kimbo writes: To have to young kids, yes KIDS, armed with the level of ignorance and poorly formed opinions that they obviously had, decide for the rest of the climbing community the fate of an historic climb, is rather saddening to say the least.
----

By most any definition, the 1970 Compressor Route was a "historical" climb only by dint of its level of degradation, a kind of eco-terrorist strike by a talented but misguided man. So it is curious that you would be "sad" about what to many was an travesty by a lunatic.

Irregardless of Kennedy and Kruk, what part of Maestri are you defending? His myth making? His compressor? The route that ran roughshod over every know value of fair play by it's excesses?

They way some make it sound, you'd think Kennedy and Kruk spray painted swasticas on the synagogue walls, whereas from where I'm siting, they scrubbed off Maestri's graffiti with their bare hands.

JL

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 26, 2012 - 02:58pm PT

I wonder who are the most embarassed by their statements ...

Probably they are not even able to realize what they have written and what they have done ... perhaps they should be accepted the way they are ...

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 26, 2012 - 03:00pm PT

The only people who should be embarrassed in all this are the ones throwing hissy fits over the removal of some bolts.

Kimbo

Trad climber

seattle

Jan 26, 2012 - 03:00pm PT

Are stupid or something?

They're not kids.

Now go sit in the corner and figure out why you are making a childish kids conclusion .....

stupid? perhaps....

but, i use "kids" metaphorically. chronologically and biologically, i do believe they recently qualified for "adult" status as humanoids, but their actions and commentary on said actions firmly entrench them in the "kid" category.

or maybe they did bring the berlin wall down. sheesh, how can i overlook this?

prisco mazzi

Trad climber

Coniglio

Jan 26, 2012 - 03:01pm PT

hello. iam mazzi captain prisco
i affix deferential
in my ofmine opinion. the hav maiden the biggest bigger bulllshit ofthe. story delmondo
is required

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 26, 2012 - 03:02pm PT

"or maybe they did bring the berlin wall down. sheesh, how can i overlook this?"

Are you unfamiliar with the concept of a metaphor?

WBraun

climber

Jan 26, 2012 - 03:03pm PT

enzolino

Probably & perhaps .... those words say.

You don't know and are projecting.

Give it up saying stupid stuff you don't know.

Make your points on facts and not a veiled slander attempt .....

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 26, 2012 - 03:06pm PT

How long do you think will take for their sponsors to drop their support?

I feel very sympathetic for Garibotti ... maybe he had to host them ... poor guy ...

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 26, 2012 - 03:08pm PT

"How long do you think will take for their sponsors to drop their support?"

That's not going to happen.

murf02

climber

NYC

Jan 26, 2012 - 03:09pm PT

"As long as the hardware remained it was justification for the unreasonable use of bolts by others. We are part of the next generation, the young group of aspiring alpinists. This is a statement we felt other young alpinists needed to hear."

Somebody read the JL "Vanguard" post

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Jan 26, 2012 - 03:09pm PT

enzolino is only too kind

from their report it is clear that they are morons (and liars), lots of supporters here, probably perhaps of the same kin?

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 26, 2012 - 03:11pm PT

Wow. Kinobi I am sorry you are so bitter. I do not take questions to nor give answers for Rolo. He is a gentleman and a scholar and he hears and speaks for himself. That you feel so hurt he hasn't answered your emails directly reflects more on you than him and on me not at all.

You can criticize and attack these three men all you need or want to and it wont change the new paradigm. Where once there was a disputed AO clip up now stand two better, more natural routes.
One of them a free climb up the very headwall from where bolts were removed

Maybe you should be admonishing David Lama.
Not like last time when International condemnation about 60 new bolts and plans to rap bolt reached the corporate ears of RedBlah.
No, this time you should condemn the Euro-Punk for freeing the boltless face thereby sealing it's doom. Going back up now to reinstall an artless bolt ladder when Lama has all ready freed it would be so droll.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Jan 26, 2012 - 03:15pm PT

so what??

lynn hill freed the nose since longtime, nevertheless bolt ladders are still there and I suspect, whit bolt newer then the free climb...

double standards are good for lesser men

Kimbo

Trad climber

seattle

Jan 26, 2012 - 03:17pm PT

@Largo

it is curious that you would be "sad" about what to many was an travesty by a lunatic.

i am saddened by a host of things:

-my time spent on this silly thread:)

-the way the blue and the grey mix today in the sky above me;

-the ticking of the clock on the wall behind me.

but seriously, what saddens me is not the removal of the route per se, but the way it came to be, that's all. if there had not been wide-spread opposition to its removal, then i wouldn't be troubled....

i too have contemplated the removal of bolts on existing routes, but did not do it based on the level of opposition i encountered. many supported removal, many did not, so in the end i couldn't come up with grandiose comparisons to the berlin wall and such to support a divisive act on my part.

bvb

Social climber

flagstaff arizona

Jan 26, 2012 - 03:18pm PT

Although the health and disability circumstances of my life made Cerro Torre totally out of the question -- or even a bivouac, being less than 6 hours from a really good hospital has always been a life-or-death crapshoot for me -- Cerro Torre has always been mythic in my mind. The very first climbing magazine I ever saw in my entire life was at Tom Compare's climbing shop A Striving After Wind, and it was the 1973 issue of Ascent, with the mind-bending photo of Cerro Torre on the cover. Oh Man, was I hooked.

When it's all said and done, I guess I'm glad that route got waxed, although I do not pretend to have earned the street cred to offer an opinion, as Theodore Roethke once expressed in his great poem "Elegy for Jane":

I, with no rights in this matter,
Neither father nor lover.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 26, 2012 - 03:25pm PT

In reply to Elcapinyoazz:

My nephew sh#t on the floor yesterday. We've decided to never clean it up, because you know that would be erasing history...or something.

Don't worry ... if you ask the two snotty kids, they will be proud to remove it ... it's their mission ... they are part of the new generation ...

Snowmassguy

Big Wall climber

Boulder

Jan 26, 2012 - 03:25pm PT

Despite all the bitching, this is one of the best all time threads. Really some fantastic opinions and historic accounts in this thread. Also, sooo much whiny drivel and complaining. I am bored right now so have chosen to discuss the stereotypes that have formred in my mind.

I have invested a significant amount of time reading this thread and it is pretty clear to me that if you live in Italy or other European country, you really like bolts....especially bolts on Torre headwall. These are like the best bolts in the world. Bolts next to cracks are rad especially if they were placed by the legendary Maestri with a giant compressor.These are historic bolts that belong to the European Union and should have been left on the mountain until they totally degraded. This climb is so darn hard, why make it harder? Dude, we like bolting stuff...this is who we are. Quick draws are cool. Also, the Americans are bad for chopping these bolts because they are American/ Canadian and this makes it even worse. Canada is close to the USA so that young punk is American in our minds. K&K were put up to this by George Bush or Rolo....not sure.. Our leader is better, he makes love to young girls not war. Oh year...we are going to now chop American routes and this will get you mad. Live in fear silly Americans, the Euros's are coming and we are bringing a compressor and are going to bolt the Sh!* out of the Nose...or are we going to chop it. We have not decided but we are going to threaten to do something and call you selfish Americans. We owned the Compressor route and now we are going to F' up something American. Secretly, we are scared to climb El Cap due to lack of protection. How many quick draws do we need for pro to climb the Nose?

If you are from North America, the chopping of these bolts is generally OK. Some disagree but most seem to feel the chop fest was OK. Some guys that disagree have routes with bolts that they do not want chopped so they say the chop is bad. Others have their reasons too ....right or wrong. Some Americans like bolts too. Sport climbing is bitchin' and I get to wear my lycra man tights. We like our sport climbs too but they are usually close to the ground and we usually like to bring our dogs with us. Overall, we North Americans do not like bolts next to perfectly protectable cracks. We like playing with cams of all sizes, nuts, stove legs etc. We like aid climbing too but find bolt ladders not fun unless bolts are missing bolts and we get to use some sort of rube goldberg type of cheater stick or hooks and duct tape. Duct tape rules! This is fun and we like this type of challenge. We are North American damn it ! We all like war, over consumption and law suits but not bolts unless we drill them by hand in which case they are generally acceptable. Think of all the carbon emissions emitted by that compressor. Thank God I drive a Prius and support locally grown produce.

Snowmassguy is vegan, tree hugging, climber Boulderite that is not gay but supports gay marriage and like to ride his bike to save the environment.

golsen

Social climber

kennewick, wa

Jan 26, 2012 - 03:26pm PT

bvb,

That is an amazing shot. TFPU!

Now back to the regularly scheduled slander fest!

Kimbo

Trad climber

seattle

Jan 26, 2012 - 03:28pm PT

@ bvb's photo:

the only thing ruining that photo are those massive shiny bolts.

thank god they are gone.

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 26, 2012 - 03:30pm PT

@Snowmassguy: that was an all-time great piss-take, bravo sir!

Summarized the majority of the thread quite nicely.

Branch

Trad climber

Alberta

Jan 26, 2012 - 03:39pm PT

bvb's picture is photoshopped.

Here is there original.

Gabr1

climber

Jan 26, 2012 - 03:40pm PT

I found a video taken by a bystander of the reaction of Kruk (or Kennedy, i'm not sure), when confronted with the fact the majority of the climbers in El Chalten had voted to leave the bolts up:

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Hard times in Patagonia...

:-)

golsen

Social climber

kennewick, wa

Jan 26, 2012 - 03:41pm PT

Branch, if that ones right you really ought to do one of El Cap....

Kimbo

Trad climber

seattle

Jan 26, 2012 - 03:44pm PT

As long as the hardware remained it was justification for the unreasonable use of bolts by others. We are part of the next generation, the young group of aspiring alpinists. This is a statement we felt other young alpinists needed to hear.

it is rather unanimously agreed upon that the style of maestri's ascent will not be tolerated today.

ironically, the thing K&K's bolt removal might do is put the idea in other kid's heads that it's ok to do whatever f*#k one wants, regardless of opinion (but such is youth! man i sound old sometimes!).

bvb

Social climber

flagstaff arizona

Jan 26, 2012 - 03:50pm PT

The Compressor Route did not exist when that photo was taken. Just Sayin'.

I paid close attention to Dickenson's and Largo's posts, slept on it, and considered the matter closed. But, like i said, it ain't for me to say, here from the comfort of my armchair.

Branch

Trad climber

Alberta

Jan 26, 2012 - 03:55pm PT

hey golsen.

i've never been down to yosemite (!!!!) but i was planning on maybe coming down this fall. then i did a quick google search for this 'el cap', and if i'm coming im bringing my bolt cutters!!!!

ionlyski

Trad climber

Kalispell, Montana

Jan 26, 2012 - 03:57pm PT

Philo,
I think you got Kinobi and Kimbo mixed up back there.

Kinobi, though sharing a different viewpoint from you and I seems to be quite geniune.

Arne

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Jan 26, 2012 - 03:59pm PT

The fact that we were planning on leaving these bolts in anyways, meant it was too silly not to use them on the ascent.

This is a most troubling statement.

Were it not for this I would entirely come down on the side of "raising the bar".

This statement has the whiff of contradiction.

But Largo is right. Things get done, and there's not much law out on the frontier.
Armchair mountaineers will never run out of things to debate.

ionlyski

Trad climber

Kalispell, Montana

Jan 26, 2012 - 04:01pm PT

From Kimbo:
the only thing ruining that photo are those massive shiny bolts.
thank god they are gone.

Wait! Now I'm confused. I thought you wanted more bolts.
Arne

Kimbo

Trad climber

seattle

Jan 26, 2012 - 04:04pm PT

From Kimbo:
the only thing ruining that photo are those massive shiny bolts.
thank god they are gone.

Wait! Now I'm confused. I thought you wanted more bolts.
Arne

i'm sure black spider can help you, since he has nuance down pat.

ionlyski

Trad climber

Kalispell, Montana

Jan 26, 2012 - 04:08pm PT

That's OK. I've enjoyed this very much but now I need to go do something.
Boys, it's a beautiful world!

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Jan 26, 2012 - 04:09pm PT

The story is not over yet. Maestri can still stand proud and say, "Still, no one has climbed the SE ridge of Cerro Torre without the use of my bolts."

Never met the man, but I envision Maestri as Herzog played the protagonist in Scream of Stone: stubborn, proud, driven and unyielding, with a lot of character yet crippled by bitterness.

mr-p

Trad climber

Invisible City

Jan 26, 2012 - 04:47pm PT

Since the word "ethics" has been so widely misused in defense of the so called "historical route", it will be good to remember that "leave no trace" has been a core value taught for generations to mountaineers
and outdoor enthusiasts everywhere. If you disagree on this basic premise of mutual respect and conduct, then go ahead and bolt your way to the moon, so you can claim it in your resume. Go and add some garbage to Everest while you're at it.

On another note, I hope Jason and Hayden give the North Face of North Twin another go, and this time succeed.
That is the way to be on the good side of history. You are surely inspiring a lot of people.

mike m

Trad climber

black hills

Jan 26, 2012 - 05:19pm PT

50's and beautiful. It would be really cool to climb if it wasn't for work.

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Jan 26, 2012 - 05:21pm PT

God, the thread is distracting me from my life . . .

Kimbo wrote: "Ironically, the thing K&K's bolt removal might do is put the idea in other kid's heads that it's ok to do whatever f*#k one wants, regardless of opinion (but such is youth! man i sound old sometimes!).

I'm under the impression that we never have to put that opinion into other kid's heads, that being young and brave and self-absorbed (I certainly was), we quite naturally do things our own way. As Ron said, out on the frontier there ain't much law and things get DONE. It's the young generation's mandate to make over the world in their own likeness. It's the old fats job to say they have no right and to honor our past. But it isn't their past. The vanguard has no past. And they are out on the lawless frontier where they can't hear any voice but their own. Good or bad need not apply.

That's how it works. We just have to lump it, and like it because they have all the power now.

JL

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jan 26, 2012 - 05:55pm PT

Lovegasoline - please stop humping JL's leg. Many here would like him to stick around.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 26, 2012 - 05:58pm PT

And read a little history of Cerro Torre. It's not a sport climb it was only bolted like one.

David_43222

climber

Jan 26, 2012 - 06:10pm PT

I would do that in my local are if and only if thats the majority view.

Not in my dreams i would do that in an other climbing crag or country.

They had absolut no respect of the majority and absolute no respect of the fact that cerro torre is a patagonian mountain and not placed in north america.

They saw the things with their own we rule the world eyes. Thanks G'od that there is an other fantastic america which is still alive.

Best wishes from Europe

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 26, 2012 - 06:16pm PT

DaftRat your attention deficit disorder is showing. You act so pissy when you don't get enough attention.

TYeary

Social climber

State of decay

Jan 26, 2012 - 06:18pm PT

"Maestri's actions were a complete atrocity. His use of bolts and heavy machinery was outrageous, even for the time. The Southeast Ridge was attainable by fair means in the '70s, he stole that climb from the future."
Jason Kruk, Squamish, BC
Hayden Kennedy, Carbondale, Colorado

TY

Gene

climber

Jan 26, 2012 - 06:24pm PT

I would do that in my local are if and only if thats the majority view.

Understood and I respect your concern for community and consensus. Others differ.

In the long run there is no more exhilarating experience than to determine one's position, state it bravely and then act boldly.

In the current case, K&K acted boldly and then stated it bravely.

g

marty(r)

climber

beneath the valley of ultravegans

Jan 26, 2012 - 06:35pm PT

Some thoughts from Jason Kruk.

Kimbo

Trad climber

seattle

Jan 26, 2012 - 06:37pm PT

the only true vanguard action at this point would be to bolt an aid line from the bottom to the top of Cerro Torre.

talk about avant-garde, revolutionary AND vanguard, all at once.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 26, 2012 - 06:39pm PT

And there goes the neighborhood.

Certified Torre?

Gene

climber

Jan 26, 2012 - 06:45pm PT

Philo,

Certified Torre?

Typos happen. Dude may not be a native English speaker. I don't know. But harping on a person/post when the context is clear adds nothing to the discussion but only increases animosity.

Peace,
g

Kimbo

Trad climber

seattle

Jan 26, 2012 - 06:47pm PT

@ philo:

iPhone autofill.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 26, 2012 - 06:50pm PT

Gene lighten up I know it was a typo.
I wasn't harping I was funning.
Where in my post do you see harping?
My "there goes the neighborhood" was for LovesGas and his gettin potty mouth.

Fats, STFU and justify this you desperate tool.

Then there was the editor of the Atlanta Jewish Times, who advocated in an editorial that the Israeli secret service assassinate President Obama.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/worldview/assassinate-obama-if-he-wont-attack-iran-for-israel-jewish-monthly-suggests/article2310783/

Gene

climber

Jan 26, 2012 - 06:52pm PT

Philo,

Lighting up 48 minutes early :) Just reacting cuz you tweaked another for an English booboo.

g

Feeling better now. Thanks!

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 26, 2012 - 06:53pm PT

g
:)
p

me too, I groc ya.

Fats
( . Y . )

Keep posts on topic and quit spreading your rhetoric and provocation everywhere. You're desperate. No one cares.

Kimbo

Trad climber

seattle

Jan 26, 2012 - 07:07pm PT

and, to further previous thoughts:

the idea of presenting oneself with a challenge can certainly be an admirable aim, and no doubt a boltless ethic furthers this.

but who's domain is this type of sublimative contrivance?

historically, that of the idle class, the bourgeoisie.

anything that would increase participation of the proletariat would truly be the path of the revolutionary vanguard, as opposed to the fetishized and discriminatory pseudo-ethics of the statist counter-revolutionaries imposing their will in a quite arbitrary fashion (read: k&K and their 5 additional bolts ).

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA

Jan 26, 2012 - 07:52pm PT

What I find interesting about this thread is that everyone has become so entrenched in defending their own opinion about the affair that when the protagonists publish their account of what happened and why they did it there is very little discussion, if any, about what they wrote.

nature

climber

Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...

Jan 26, 2012 - 07:58pm PT

bhilden - was just about to respond cuz I just finished reading it.

and after reading it - more props to these young men.

and yeah, what thread is this. I actually had to scroll up to figure out this wasn't a political thread. whodathunk considering how much of a dick fatty is being.... ahhhhgain...

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Jan 26, 2012 - 08:14pm PT

It is really just an argument over whether climbing is art or sport.

The problem is that it can be both or either.

Gene

climber

Jan 26, 2012 - 08:31pm PT

What happened to the vole bashies?

They were volecanized and turned into climbing shoe rubber.

g

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Jan 26, 2012 - 09:02pm PT

Please keep the politard nonsense out of this thread.

It is excruciatingly boring (as always), and extraordinarily irrelevant to the discussion.

nature

climber

Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...

Jan 26, 2012 - 09:11pm PT

They were volecanized and turned into climbing shoe rubber.

locker has a new product?!?!?!

I'm SO In!

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jan 26, 2012 - 11:18pm PT

I wonder what donini will have to say abou all this? Is he off fishing, or?

nature

climber

Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...

Jan 26, 2012 - 11:42pm PT

to be fair the cables were put in by "fair means".

Kimbo

Trad climber

seattle

Jan 26, 2012 - 11:49pm PT

Please keep the politard nonsense out of this thread.

//

i would suggest that the entire thread is inherently political, from its initial post to the present.

i would also suggest, to continue with the overt political aspects, that everyone who harbors strong feelings let those feelings be known to the companies that sponsor the two climbers in question (whether you are for or against their actions).

instead of simply wallowing in the effete bathos that online forums can at times sink into, letting the companies know your feelings allows every poster here to engage in the political process (direct action), thereby affecting the course of history (involvement in the vanguard).

surely if the companies sponsoring (financially supporting) climbers draw lines in the sand regarding said companies' expectations regarding the behaviour of their climbers, those climbers will engage in perhaps a little more self-reflection when contemplating their next vanguard action.

mika

Big Wall climber

Zurich, switzerland

Jan 27, 2012 - 05:44am PT

Well enzolino,

When I climbed Torre by the compressor route in 1991, I was at first not quite happy with the large bolt traverse, but due to a lot of falling ice blocks it came in handy to get out of the sun as fast as possible. The bolt traverse leaded to the shade and came in handy. The bolt ladder leading to the top of the Icetower was strange indeed, for the most obvious climbing would have been between the Icetower and Torre itself, but many bolts were under the ice. At the headwall many of the bolts were also under the ice so it was nice to clip one after a longer section of thin ice. The compressor was handy to stand on, because in the headwall there was not much to stand on. All in all, definetly not a ferrata, but that depended much on the conditions, wind snow and ice. In perfect conditions defenity sections with too many bolts. And with global warming we are mooving towards better conditions. And at the belaypoints from Maestri hauling the compressor, gasoline etc. many bolts in strange places, but makes sense if one is hauling 1000+ kg.

Not to forget is that the compressor route was established in a time were no friends and other modern climbing gizmo or the two bolt choppers, had been born jet.

In a democratic way the climbers came to the strange result not to chopp the climb. So what we see today is the result of a climbing Ghadhafi i.e. Kennedy and a climbing Sadam Hussein i.e. Kruk who do not care about democracy. So why dont the move to Syria.

mike

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 27, 2012 - 06:06am PT

Well enzolino,

When I climbed Torre by the compressor route in 1991, I was at first not quite happy with the large bolt traverse, but due to a lot of falling ice blocks it came in handy to get out of the sun as fast as possible. The bolt traverse leaded to the shade and came in handy. The bolt ladder leading to the top of the Icetower was strange indeed, for the most obvious climbing would have been between the Icetower and Torre itself, but many bolts were under the ice. At the headwall many of the bolts were also under the ice so it was nice to clip one after a longer section of thin ice. The compressor was handy to stand on, because in the headwall there was not much to stand on. All in all, definetly not a ferrata, but that depended much on the conditions, wind snow and ice. In perfect conditions defenity sections with too many bolts. And with global warming we are mooving towards better conditions. And at the belaypoints from Maestri hauling the compressor, gasoline etc. many bolts in strange places, but makes sense if one is hauling 1000+ kg.

Not to forget is that the compressor route was established in a time were no friends and other modern climbing gizmo or the two bolt choppers, had been born jet.

In a democratic way the climbers came to the strange result not to chopp the climb. So what we see today is the result of a climbing Ghadhafi i.e. Kennedy and a climbing Sadam Hussein i.e. Kruk who do care about democracy. So why dont the move to Syria.

mike

Thanks Mike,

great post!
I wonder what some K&K supporter would think about your "climbing_Gheddafi_Kennedy" and "climbing_Hussein_Kruk" association ... :-)))

You raised a good point.
One is the hauling of the compressor+fuel+all_the_rest.
Another fact, which is often overlooked, is the Maestri's first attempt in the austral winter in 1970 with the compressor, when they stayed 54 days on the wall! And to haul up such a compressor, in winter, on Cerro Torre I think is a challenge within the challenge.

jaaan

Trad climber

Chamonix, France

Jan 27, 2012 - 06:24am PT

And to haul up such a compressor, in winter, on Cerro Torre I think is a challenge within the challenge.

And to get it started every day. Hell, my car won't start once it drops under freezing.

Drugo Lebowsky

Ice climber

Treviso

Jan 27, 2012 - 06:52am PT

cambia macchina!

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 27, 2012 - 07:41am PT

One is the hauling of the compressor+fuel+all_the_rest.

...

And to haul up such a compressor, in winter, on Cerro Torre I think is a challenge within the challenge.

It's not a 'challenge' - the length of time, the sheer amount of material to be hauled, and the subsequent bolt clusters to do it were all an indicator of just how ridiculously ill-advised the whole venture was in practice, let alone in concept.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 27, 2012 - 08:51am PT

Well ...
You are right ...
That's exactly what I think of aid climbing ... with all those portaledges ... and gear ... and lots of food and water supplies ... and bolts at the belays just to support so much weight ... and huge effort just to haul all that stuff ...

Is that real climbing?

We need a new crusader!

Uh ... oh ... but ... what happened???
I wonder who are these people? For sure non-locals!!!
http://www.lacachania.com.ar/noticia.php?id_nota=199&id_seccion=1

El Centro Andino local declaró a Kruk y Kennedy personas no gratas.

Don't they know that K&K destroyed the Berlin's wall and opened the future for new generations???

The cad

climber

Does it matter, really?!?

Jan 27, 2012 - 09:32am PT

The Centro Andino El Chaltén declared Hayden Kennedy and Jason Kruk personae non gratae for their actions on Cerro Torre.

Read More here (in Spanish).

nature

climber

Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...

Jan 27, 2012 - 09:33am PT

We need a new crusader!

we have two of them!

K&K

viva la K&K!!!1111169

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 27, 2012 - 09:36am PT

"Persona non grata" declarations have about as much legal weight as de-friending someone on Facebook.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 27, 2012 - 09:46am PT

"Persona non grata" declarations have about as much legal weight as de-friending someone on Facebook.

Well ... of course ... everything is measured by legality ...

If the people of El Chalten decided to meet, and Garibotti and Haley avoided the discussion, they did the right thing ... who are the others?

The only true locals who love Patagonia are Garibotti and Haley ... that's for sure!!!

Jean Gurtorju

climber

land of echoes

Jan 27, 2012 - 10:09am PT

Oh my God!
As they allow themselves NOT to agree with us? Us that we bring democracy all over the world, us that we are the measure of all things. It's impossible for this to happen, I'm shocked! It's definitely an Al-Qaeda conspiracy!

gimmeslack

Trad climber

Jan 27, 2012 - 10:16am PT

Reading the Cachana article brings several ironies to mind...

First, I can only believe that if they had left the bolts, Lama's and their ascents would have swayed opinion to agreeing that the bolts were a historical artifact which no longer was 'relevant'. i.e. these astounding climbs would have created firm footing for those wishing to remove bolts.

Second, it's ironic that YC, who for years has been working to preserve Patagonia and has stood as one of it's most loyal defenders, could now be in a position where Argentinian opinion turns against 'foreign' intervention in their preservation/wilderness issues. It would be really interesting to see what he thinks (i'm betting that he'd only wish he'd gotten down there and pulled them years ago ;-).

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 27, 2012 - 10:17am PT

Typically awesome commentary from Andy KP (another guy who climbs way harder than most of the people crying over some pieces of metal):

http://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/blog/view/death_of_a_much_loved_patagonian_via_ferrata

Cor

climber

Colorado

Jan 27, 2012 - 10:25am PT

donini posted this back in 2009. (for people wondering what he might think)

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=825943&msg=825943#msg825943

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber

Joshua Tree

Jan 27, 2012 - 10:31am PT

Well, I know what I've learned from this whole affair:

Italianos are-a buncha cry-a babies-a.

It givesa them a biga sad that they no cana "climb" the Torre on a via ferrata.

Starting to understand why they carry those man purses now...gotta store the vagisil somewhere.

Jean Gurtorju

climber

land of echoes

Jan 27, 2012 - 10:44am PT

Well, I know what I've learned from this whole affair:

Italianos are-a buncha cry-a babies-a.

It givesa them a biga sad that they no cana "climb" the Torre on a via ferrata.

1241 post and you have NOT understand a very f*#king anything.

Good job man!!!

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Jan 27, 2012 - 10:53am PT

Very interesting....still in Patagonia (not Chalten) with extremely limited communications. Back in Colorado on Feb. 3rd, I'll catch up and put in my two cents worth.

couchmaster

climber

pdx

Jan 27, 2012 - 11:58am PT

Jim Donini earlier wrote in 2009:

"Cerro Torre- the lie and the desecration.

Over the last four decades I have climbed on all seven continents. During that time it became apparent to me that Cerro Torre was the most magical mountain that I would ever encounter. A spike of light brown granite soaring over a vertical mile out of an ice sheet and capped by an otherworldly ice mushroom. Cerro Torre is also a peak of ever changing moods predicated by swirling storm clouds or an intense orange alpine glow on the rare clear days.

Cerro Torre also has a colorful history and therein lies the problem. In 1958 Walter Bonatti, the greatest climber of his generation, climbed to the Col of Hope on Cerro Torre’s southern flank and declared an ascent to the ice mushroomed summit impossible. A year later, Cesare Maestri arrived with Toni Egger and a support team to attempt the first ascent. During a six day period of stormy weather Maestri claimed to have completed the ascent of Cerro Torre with Toni Egger. During the descent Egger was swept away by an ice avalanche, along with their only camera, to the glacier below and his body disappeared, covered by fresh snow from the storm. Exultant with his success, Maestri crowed about his achievement and chided his rival Bonatti. Maestri said in referring to Bonatti’s ascent of the Col of Hope the previous year, “hope is the weapon of the weak, there is only the will to conquer.” Maestri had, with what now appears to be world-class hubris, named the col on his side of the mountain the Col of Conquest.

There was a great deal of skepticism about the ascent. A climb of such magnitude done in alpine style in such bad weather seemed unlikely given the state of the art of alpinism in 1959. When Maestri returned in 1970 with a veritable army, replete with a compressor powered bolt gun and sieged and bolted his way up the SW Ridge, he ignited a firestorm of protest. “A mountain desecrated,” roared the headline in Mountain Magazine. “How could a man who claimed to have climbed Cerro Torre in such impeccable style in 1959 come back and bolt his way to the top.” There were also defenders of Maestri, especially in Italy. Cesare had a formidable record of first ascents in the Dolomites and Egger was regarded as one of the best ice climbers of his time. As a young climber viewing these events from Camp 4, and three fourths Italian, I was a defender of Maestri’s, believing that a climber’s word was sacred.

In 1974 during my first trip to Patagonia I happened upon the remains of Toni Egger shortly after he melted out of the glacier that had entombed him for 15 years. I became obsessed with the idea of doing Cerro Torre’s immediate neighbor, which had been named in honor of Toni Egger. Torre Egger was unclimbed in 1975 and is still considered by many to be the most difficult summit to reach in the Western Hemisphere.

In 1975 I went to Patagonia with John Bragg and Jay Wilson to attempt the first ascent of Torre Egger. Our plan was to follow the footsteps of Maestri and Egger to the Col of Conquest and then climb the final 1400 ft. tower to Torre Egger’s summit mushroom.
There appeared to be three sections in the climb to the Col of Conquest: an initial 1000 feet of vertical climbing to a prominent triangular ice field, followed by 1500 feet of lower angled climbing, and, finally, a 400 foot traverse into the col. The traverse, from below, looked blank and vertical. What the hell, we reasoned, Maestri and Egger did it in 1959, and with our Yosemite experience we should be able to figure it out.

The climb started out as a trip through history. In the 1000 feet to the triangular ice field we were overwhelmed by the number of artifacts. Shards of rope, pitons, wooden wedges, and the odd bolt were found on nearly every pitch. The last pitch leading to the ice field was completely fixed with a bleached old rope that was clove-hitched to a piton and carabiner about every five feet. At the end of this pitch, just below the ice field and about a 1000 ft. up, we found an equipment dump left behind by Maestri and Egger. A brewing storm chased us down to the glacier and incessant storms over the next six weeks allowed us to speculate over the peculiar things that we had found.

When the weather finally improved we went back up and made it to the Col of Conquest and finally on Feb. 23rd, 1976 to the summit. After seeing a hundred plus artifacts in the first 1000 feet we were surprised to find nothing, zero, zip, nada in the remaining 1500 feet to the col. No rap anchors or fixed gear, absolutely nothing. Suspicious, even damning, but not absolute proof that Maestri lied. What seals the case is the fact that Maestri described the route to the col as it appears from below and the actual climbing is quite different from his account. He recounted the first 1000 feet, which he undoubtedly did, as difficult, which it is. He described the 1500 foot lower angled section leading to the traverse into the col as easy and the blank looking traverse into the col he proclaimed difficult, requiring some artificial aid. The converse is true: The climbing to the traverse is more difficult than it appears and the traverse into the col, due to a hidden ledge system impossible to see until you are on top of it, is by far the easiest part of the climb. There is no doubt in my mind that Maestri did not climb Cerro Torre in 1959. I also am convinced that he didn’t make it the Col of Conquest.

Why did I write this, isn’t everyone aware the Maestri lied? Apparently not, the Trento Film Festival this May is hosting a program about the history of Cerro Torre. Given that this years festival coincides with the 50th anniversary of Maestri’s adventure it is not surprising the Maestri will get more credence than he is due.

Why do I care? Cerro Torre is one of this planet’s truly singular peaks and believing a climber’s account speaks to the heart of alpinism. In a little over a decade Maestri, it may be argued, perpetrated the greatest hoax in the history of alpinism and also desecrated Cerro Torre with the Compressor Route. While the route does have 18 pitches of real climbing on it, seven pitches of bolted climbing make it the worlds hardest via feratta. I should know, the weather prompted me to survive rather than summit. Cerro Torre deserves better. If the West Face (one of the world’s premier ice climbs) were the easiest route, which would be the case without the Compressor Route, Cerro Torre would surely be a mountain whose difficulty matched its beauty."

Worth copying over to this thread. There is not much anyone, Italian or American, can say after this.

The cad

climber

Does it matter, really?!?

Jan 27, 2012 - 12:17pm PT

There is not much anyone, Italian or American, can say after this [donini post of 2009].

WOW! Can't believe it! The Final Post!
So why did everybody just keep on posting from 2009 on?!?
LOL

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Jan 27, 2012 - 12:43pm PT

Donini: Compressor Route = "worlds hardest via feratta"

That actually makes it sound pretty cool.

neversummer

Trad climber

30 mins. from suicide USA

Jan 27, 2012 - 12:48pm PT

I heard seal team 6 is headed there now with c-4 to level it....

Wade Icey

Trad climber

www.alohashirtrescue.com

Jan 27, 2012 - 12:50pm PT

This has been no ethical clean up, but a brutal micro fingered dwarf finger pocket stitch up!

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Jan 27, 2012 - 01:00pm PT

I heard seal team 6 is headed there now with c-4 to level it....

Artist's rendering made with Photochop.

JakeW

Big Wall climber

Jan 27, 2012 - 01:00pm PT

Gawd you guys take your bourgeois recreation seriously. I don't remember these debates back when I rode Bigwheelz as a kid.

Everyone flew on a jetliner to get there, made from holes in rocks. The modern rack is made from holes in rocks. And everyone's food is grown using lots of holes in rocks. And these computers...they're made from all sorts of f*#ked up holes in rocks!

But it's nice to have something to talk sh#t about when I'm not playing with my friends. We're so spoiled and lucky.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 27, 2012 - 01:06pm PT

PhotoChop. Hahahahahahahaha!

squishy

Mountain climber

Jan 27, 2012 - 01:06pm PT

The fact that we were planning on leaving these bolts in anyways, meant it was too silly not to use them on the ascent.

This is a most troubling statement.

Were it not for this I would entirely come down on the side of "raising the bar".

This statement has the whiff of contradiction.

I caught that as well...they talk about not talking about chopping then they mention their plan to chop, specific details of it after stating there was no plan, it doesn't make any sense and points to backpedaling, the opposite of what others here have interpreted by their statements, this puts them in the same boat as the original bolter, a phishy story where their words are inconsistent and untrustworthy...did I not read it correctly or is reading comprehension a fine art which is lost on those who have already made up their minds? This story is far from over and it's sad that the only two who know the truth are already poking holes in their own credibility, we may never know the truth of how they came to the decision or why because of the now sensitive nature of the subject matter, hell it could have been two hot heads in a bar drinking the night before coming up with stupid ideas, it could have been pure hubris, but I for one will not praise or condemn anyone till I know the full story...but I suspect they don't want us to know or they will receive criticism, that's the only conclusion I could guess from the small clue planted in their statement. They vaguely touch on the subject, mention speaking about it, then they mention not having talked about it, then they mention the specifics in their plan to chop.

I personally think the route should have stayed, I would have liked to climb it someday, I don't give a sh#t about the future of ethics, though I do have control over my own, I just want fun adventures in the mountains, I am not putting up new routes, I not the cutting edge of climbing and the CR fascinated me, it's history, it's accessibility. The choppers did a disservice to people like me, I don't climb to get my name in the papers or to put my name on a route and I despise those who climb for those reasons, hardmen are just little dick wavers with social problems, if you climbed for real you wouldn't care about who did what and when you would be too busy climbing and having fun to give a sh#t, I can imagine there are some great routes climbed in this world that we never heard of done by the silent adventurers for themselves, those are real climbers, not these publicity stunts...what these two proved to me is that they have huge egos, and they are people I wouldn't want as friends and they are people I wouldn't want dictating what routes are available and which aren't...they have a narrow minded and inconsiderate view of the world and of themselves and I'll be willing to wager than someday they may regret this on a personal level...

If I win the lottery or come by a pile of cash, I'll head down there and recreate the route, it sounds like a lot of fun and I have always wanted to climb it...I hope the locals restore it for future generations to climb, if you don't want to climb it and you want to take the "new variation" then by all means, go for it, but why deny others the right to climb the mountain or a route they wish to climb? Does it bother you that less skilled climbers are able to reach the summit? If so, go eat a f*#king cock. It reminds me of the ego driven sandbagging of American routes just to keep the noobs away or test people. It seems no one likes easy routes, it's all about pushing the limits of everything, showing off how big you dick is and then getting your name and picture in the magazine. What ever happened to just getting outside and enjoying it? Climbing something long and easy, the feeling of body on stone, is that not enough for you people? You have to one-up each other, climb a new route, climb a new style, what's the f*#king point? you are all dust in the end and no one will f*#king care especially the mountain. All you did was make a mountain harder, denying access to people like me all the while cheering some bullshit battlecry about ethics that I don't even recognize as a legitimate subject...

I really want to hear more from them, and it would be nice if they explained the line I quoted above. If a political figure made such an inconstant statement he would be blasted to no ends on here, why are those in support of the "ethics" applied in this case, blind to it?

WBraun

climber

Jan 27, 2012 - 01:06pm PT

They'll never learn ....

mike m

Trad climber

black hills

Jan 27, 2012 - 01:14pm PT

I read Kruks statement yesterday and at least he is taking credit for what he did. Cause in the words of that Oklahoma State Coach...I'm a Man!

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Jan 27, 2012 - 01:22pm PT

Squishy wrote:

All you did was make a mountain harder, denying access to people like me all the while cheering some bullshit battlecry about ethics that I don't even recognize as a legitimate subject...

Someone on Mountain Project forum wrote:

"
I wanted to stand on it, feel it, experience it and now I can't forever... If I am lucky, I may get 3-4 opportunities in my lifetime to attempt Cerro Torre. I have always planned on attempting it by the Ragni or Spiral route but I still wanted to be able to experience Maestri's creation if only even on the way down. So -not that any of you care - but thanks for killing that dream."

The simple greed of toddlers. Throwing fits because they can't have candy.

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 27, 2012 - 01:25pm PT

Good analogy Snorky.

It seems that most of the ones who are most upset about this from a "this route was stolen from us!" standpoint are ones who don't care about doing some good climbing, but just want to conquer Cerro Torre so they can write it down on a tick list (with some exceptions such as Steve Schneider and others).

Dervish

Trad climber

Over the water

Jan 27, 2012 - 01:31pm PT

If something is wrong, then it's wrong. Why should history make it any less wrong?

I just wish they had chopped about another 200.

I really can't understand what all the fuss is about.

Dervish

squishy

Mountain climber

Jan 27, 2012 - 01:38pm PT

I don't feel it was stolen from me, in fact I was given the gift of a harder challenge. I do feel that someone else should not have the made the choice for me especially for ego driven reasons or some subjective ethics debate...big difference...

I can see the meaning of my post was lost on those who are ignoring the inconstancy I pointed out by applying the same lack of reading comprehension and spin on my own words...

This whole thread is just spin and bias, the "Armchair mountaineers" actually have an advantage on this subject because we are outside looking in instead of being formerly invested in one side or the other of the charged ethics debate. Not to mention I don't have an ego right now, I am but a shallow shell of a man who can't even lead 5.9. BUT I LOVE CLIMBING! a lot more than debating this bullsh#t, see ya in the hills, I'm heading out right now...

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber

Joshua Tree

Jan 27, 2012 - 01:46pm PT

What Dingus said. Ain't none of you fatass wannabe chumps who can't even get your corpulent carcasses up the Nutcracker going to be queing up for the Torre anytime soon, bolts or no bolts.

God forbid these entitled jackasses ever had to work hard, develop skills and take some risks to earn something.

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 27, 2012 - 01:47pm PT

Rolo bringing the goods:

http://www.climbmagazine.com/news/2012/01/rolando-garibotti-interview

"The meeting in 2007 was as unilateral as Hayden and Jason's action. It was rather pretentious from those 40 people, most of which were non-climbers to attempt to decide for the hundreds and hundreds of people that have made and continue to make the history of this massif. Salvaterra was not present, neither were Karo, Giarolli, Orlandi, Comesaña, Fonrouge, Dickinson, etc, etc. Alpinism has been ruled fairly successfully without any sort of elections, votes and regulations. Lets keep it that way. Maestri's act of vandalism had long required a response. I agree with Jason and Hayden that ‘the act needed to be initiated by one party, without consensus.’"

"Some of the townspeople, largely non-climbers, believe they should be the ones deciding what happens up on the hills. They seem to forget that a self-regulating international community of ‘locals’ has been visiting these mountains year in year out since the 1930s. To me their reaction is not unlike the reaction of an ignorant football fan. When the Argentine National team plays I am often that person, shouting at the couch and players even if I know next to nothing about what they are attempting to do on the pitch, or the real difficulties they are facing. The difference is that I don’t expect anyone to take my football opinions seriously."

phylp

Trad climber

Millbrae, CA

Jan 27, 2012 - 01:48pm PT

I've been checking in with this thread daily, as the story is riveting (no pun intended).
I have no opinion about the actions and reactions that have taken place on Cerro Torre because I am not an alpinist and I have never been there.

But I am dismayed at all the vicious personal nastiness that is being put forward in this thread by people on both sides of the debate.

I've lived in the US my whole life and have visited a number of places in the world and in general, my observation is, the world is full of beautiful, magical places, and the people who inhabit them are, in the majority, friendly and good-hearted. I am proud of my Italian roots (all four grandparents) and it saddens me to see the argument on both sides reduced to aspersions about people from Canada, the US, Italy, Argentina, etc.

Thanks to the many contributors who have remained civil.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 27, 2012 - 02:00pm PT

Rolo speaks sense.
TFPU

Hawkeye

climber

State of Mine

Jan 27, 2012 - 02:14pm PT

Twas ego that called Maestri out on it.

i dont have a dog in this fight, but i disagree with this statement from DMT.

when donini et al went up to teh col of conquest and found no trace above a certain point that raised questions. when rolo et al ascended the original maistri line and found no trace that also raised questions. calling people out may not be about ego. in fact the most vociferous of them, rolo, had no stake in increasing his ego as he asserts that another italian team should get the credit for the FA of CT. while ego drives all of us to a certain extent, i do not think that ego drove rolo on this one.

squishy

Mountain climber

Jan 27, 2012 - 02:32pm PT

I can see the meaning of my post was lost on those who are ignoring the inconstancy I pointed out by applying the same lack of reading comprehension and spin on my own words...

Wait... what?

DMT

I am referring to the article and statements released by the choppers. There is inconsistency in their story, enough to raise question on whether or not they are telling the whole story. Just like Maestri's words, history is repeating itself in my eyes...and it appears no one is acknowledging or even speaking about these inconsistencies, everyone just wants to argue ethics or talk about how much of a better or worse climber they are...I bet they are not telling the whole story of their ego drive deed because they hope to be justified by the community, the same community that voted to keep the bolts and the same community they never asked about chopping them.

Go read their statements again and tell me there is no inconsistency in their story...unless they have already updated the article and did some more backpedaling...and why didn't they show up for the meeting about it afterwards? Lama did, many others did, why not the ones who did the deed? are they afraid of being confronted? are they afraid of finding reason in the arguments against their actions? I remember being their age, my balls were bigger than my brain as well, then I grew the f*#k up...

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 27, 2012 - 02:38pm PT

Go read their statements again and tell me there is no inconsistency in their story...unless they have already updated the article and did some more backpedaling...

I'm not sure this explanation will satisfy you at all (since you've probably already made up your mind), but here's one explanation for the passage you were talking about:

-they did not initially intend to chop any bolts, as they have stated
-when they reached the bolted anchors, they knew they were going to use them for the rappel anyway, since they weren't planning on chopping the bolts
-since they were going to use them for the rappel, it would be silly to refuse to use them on the ascent
-these were the only places where their line both intersected the Compressor Route and where they were planning to build anchors.
-they decided to chop on the summit as stated, and refused to chop bolts on the way down they had used on the way up

and why didn't they show up for the meeting about it afterwards? Lama did, many others did, why not the ones who did the deed? are they afraid of being confronted? are they afraid of finding reason in the arguments against their actions? I remember being their age, my balls were bigger than my brain as well, then I grew the f*#k up...

Hmm, because they went out climbing? Imagine that, preferring to go climbing while you are in Patagonia rather than argue about climbing with other people...

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 27, 2012 - 02:46pm PT

"I also feel ego should not dictate whether or not you can make decisions for me or not"

This sentence is complete nonsense. No one has made any decision for you or not.

Kimbo

Trad climber

seattle

Jan 27, 2012 - 02:47pm PT

rolo seems the most vocal and outspoken supporter of K&K's actions: if he felt so strongly, why the heck did he not remove the bolts himself? i mean, isn't he down there like, always?

also i can't help but wonder how much rolo's beliefs influenced K&K's actions....

squishy

Mountain climber

Jan 27, 2012 - 02:47pm PT

there you go, some possible explanations that make sense...

so a question....if I climb a new aid variation on a route in Yosemite, say of a controversial route like WOEML and then chop it on the way down, how would you feel?

Would I be praised?

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber

Joshua Tree

Jan 27, 2012 - 02:47pm PT

Not all of us can live in a van for four years

And I didn't have rich parents and access to a Jr racing leagues...but I don't spent my time crying about how I can't drive at Talledega either. I didn't have a dad in MLB and access to the best coaching from age 3, but I don't feel entitled to play for the Dodgers either.

For a "fend for yourself" bootstrapping conservative who's constantly crying about "entitlements", the irony is rich indeed.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 27, 2012 - 02:54pm PT

Lets keep it that way. Maestri's act of vandalism had long required a response. I agree with Jason and Hayden that ‘the act needed to be initiated by one party, without consensus.

That's right Rolo ...
Beside the Nose I was looking for new missions for our two heroes to restore some atrocious acts of vandalism!
To break new walls of Berlin!

1964: The Prow, 2 bolt ladders, 38 bolts
1972: Tangerine Trip, 550 m, 2 bolt ladders, more than 50 bolts.
1976: Lurking Fear, 2 bolt ladders

But I know that other sins have been done around the world ... please ... ¨
Climbers of the pure ethic!
Missionaries of the true vertical church!
Help me to find out where they are ... and possibly to convince the authors of these acts of insanity to confess themselves to our priest Rolando Garibotti!

Amen

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 27, 2012 - 02:57pm PT

Philo, is amazing he must have a live feed to the internet 24 7, and logic blinders on.

I'm out if JT in a few days, goof ball, let's rumble, Nomad parking lot.

Coz I spend a lot of time on the blogosphere because I am still recovering from an ACDF of C3-C7. I get out and do what I can, work or play, till fatigue sets in. PT is what a lot of my time entails.

But, did you just call me out to rumble and choose me to a bout of fisticuffs?
What sound does beating a dead horse make?

Porkchop_express

Trad climber

Southwest for the winter

Jan 27, 2012 - 03:04pm PT

My very first post on ST was the Growing Up thread. I am about as qualified to post on this topic as I was on that-- (although I am surprised not to have seen more comparisons between the two arguments since they seem to be a direct inversion of each other)

If I were K&K I don't think I would have chopped the route. If I were Maestri I don't think I would have bolted the route in the first place either though. When I go to climb something, small or large, I look at what's there and then go up or not according to what I feel capable of.

If someone changes what's "there" and adds or subtracts from it to suit their own level, raising the bar or lowering it according to their ability that's on them. I have accepted that there are many mountains I will never climb no matter how strong I get.

The mountain is fundamentally unchanged. The devices and fixtures on it have changed--and those are not what give significance to a mountain. After reading this thread, that is the conclusion I have come to. Someday I hope to climb in Patagonia. If I am not up to climbing whatever routes are on CT at that time, then I will find something else to climb and it will still be a fantastic experience.

Steve Richert

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 27, 2012 - 03:10pm PT

I do find it interesting that one of the biggest critics of that route is also one of the biggest critics of the chopping here. I guess I'm not seeing what makes a 5.9 A0 route bolted on "lead" (if one can call it that) with 400 bolts drilled using a gas-powered compressor more worthy of defending than a 5.13+ mostly-free route (that has a tiny bit of A0) bolted on rappel using hand drills with a moderate number of bolts.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 27, 2012 - 03:16pm PT

The Prophet has spoken:

Regarding similar acts taking place elsewhere; lets not forget the magnitude of Maestri's aberration. If there are similar examples in other places I think it would be good if those route were erased. Even without arriving at that extreme I would love to see routes like the Salathe Wall returned to its original condition, to its 7 or 9 original bolts.

Let's go and let's spread His gospel ...

adnix

Big Wall climber

Finland

Jan 27, 2012 - 03:38pm PT

The comparisions between Yosemite and Cerro Torre are pointless. The first one is blessed with good weather and you can fix a top rope on any of the walls if you wish. The latter is one of the wildest peaks on the planet with no easy way up. Tell me, which of the El Cap routes have 500+ bolts on them?

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 27, 2012 - 03:43pm PT

Whew. Glad you were talking to ElCap cause man you are a monster. I would have soiled myself. Anybody got a handiwipe? heehee.
I am doing well and progressing in spite of some unfortunate setbacks.
The prognosis looks great though. Coz, if you get to the point of an ACDF and want to ask questions for perspective I am at your service amytime.

MH2

climber

Jan 27, 2012 - 03:52pm PT

from Rolo's Climb interview

I am often that person, shouting at the couch

YES! I too shout at the couch, from the couch, and collect change from under the cushions! What unites is more than what separates us.

Please everyone leave Cerro Torre as it is, now. What's done is done and can't be undone, which is what I think of the Maestri bolting episode, too. There are too many people in this game, today, but that mountain is better when less accessible whatever the majority opinion may be.

Kimbo

Trad climber

seattle

Jan 27, 2012 - 03:55pm PT

Rolo quote:

"Some of the townspeople, largely non-climbers, believe they should be the ones deciding what happens up on the hills. They seem to forget that a self-regulating international community of ‘locals’ has been visiting these mountains year in year out since the 1930s. To me their reaction is not unlike the reaction of an ignorant football fan.

this reeks of arrogance. discount the argentinians in their own country.

classy.

Kimbo

Trad climber

seattle

Jan 27, 2012 - 04:00pm PT

no hei, soumalainen! ei asia oo vaan bolt-countissa kiinni.

mutta on eri asia: mutta multa tuntuu etta boltit ois pitanyt jattaa.

heh, soumalainen.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 27, 2012 - 04:01pm PT

this reeks of arrogance. discount the argentinians in their own country!

classy.

Are you kidding?
Mountains belong only to climbers ...
Only climbers love mountains ...

Ah ... except Maestri ... he is THE EVIL!!!

Sometimes, when I read Rolo's statements, comes to my mind the story of that guy who thought that everybody else was driving in the wrong direction ...
Like in El Chalten ... he and Haley ... alone ... to support K&K ... how come all the others don't understand they are wrong???

Kinobi

climber

Jan 27, 2012 - 04:06pm PT

Ciao,

I read Garibotti's interview and I have decided to ask help to all the community of climbers. I got a very good tip from Konrad Anker's post: they removed something, but the chinese goverment forced them to bring it back.

I will contact between Sunday and Tuesday all the sponsors of K&K and the future trade show for outdoor products to be held in Munich, Germany. Can anybody from US contact them too?
I will ask their sponsors (and to websites and magazines) to send a mutual letter to the police station of El Chalten to ban K&K any further climbing in Argentina till they restore the Maestri's Route to its original (after Maestri's ascent) state. I believe such a high visibily action, will be good for sponsors too.
After that, I will ask their sponsors to make a poll (election) among climbers, to decide if K&K are allow to clean the route AGAIN. I am sure if removal will be approved, Mr Rolando Garibotti will volunteer. In any case, if removal will be approved, Mr Rolando Garibotti must be sent there anyhow to check out all is done properly.

Best,
E

Kinobi

climber

Jan 27, 2012 - 04:14pm PT

With Reference too:
"Rolo quote:

"Some of the townspeople, largely non-climbers, believe they should be the ones deciding what happens up on the hills. They seem to forget that a self-regulating international community of ‘locals’ has been visiting these mountains year in year out since the 1930s. To me their reaction is not unlike the reaction of an ignorant football fan.

this reeks of arrogance. discount the argentinians in their own country.

classy."

As far as I know, Mr Garibotti has USA and Argentinia's Passport. I am not sure about Italians' one. For sure, he got a prize from our Republic.
http://www.quirinale.it/elementi/DettaglioOnorificenze.aspx?decorato=301230
Best,
E

Kimbo

Trad climber

seattle

Jan 27, 2012 - 04:15pm PT

they removed something, but the chinese goverment forced them to bring it back.

I will contact between Sunday and Tuesday all the sponsors of K&K and the future trade show for outdoor products to be held in Munich, Germany. Can anybody from US contact them too?
I will ask their sponsors (and to websites and magazines) to send a mutual letter to the police station of El Chalten to ban K&K any further climbing in Argentina till they restore the Maestri's Route to its original (after Maestri's ascent) state. I believe such a high visibily action, will be good for sponsors too.

//

i kinda like it. i did contact sponsors already, but not with restoration in mind....

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 27, 2012 - 04:16pm PT

Kinobi: good luck with that. Don't cry too hard when it doesn't happen.

I just bought a new jacket from Arc'teryx (a model that Jason Kruk helped design and test) and told them specifically I bought it because I support Jason's climbing and his actions.

Kinobi

climber

Jan 27, 2012 - 04:18pm PT

@Blackspider:
Even among Arcteryx they couldn't' agree too much. See Facebook. May be the "EASY AID CLIMBING" show so-so knowledge, but still decent answer.

Hi Emanuele,
Arc'teryx Equipment commented on their Wall post.
Arc'teryx Equipment wrote: "“The tribes will always remain too polarized to reach a common ground.”
Jason Kruk’s statement on his recent brilliant climb of Cerro Torre's Southeast Ridge.

Arc’teryx is a collective of individuals, each with their own opinion. Those opinions are split down the middle: some of us cherish the idea of the historical gear left on the route and an easy aid line to the summit, while others of us believe in progress and pushing climbing standards in the mountains.

Jason is an ambassador for our company, Arc’teryx. Whether you, or even we, believe his actions were right or wrong, we continue to support him as a talented and accomplished climber."

ezy

Mountain climber

Italy

Jan 27, 2012 - 04:40pm PT

Pataclimb's home page

!!!W ZAPATA, CABRONES!!!!

bravo a Kinobi e Enzolino, fin troppo eroici :D

adnix

Big Wall climber

Finland

Jan 27, 2012 - 05:07pm PT

Kimbo, rolo is Argentinean. It's not like some foreigner would be bashing the locals.

Also, what comes to the vote in 2007, it was really only a handfull of climbers who just happenened to be in the village at that time. It was like someone would randomly poll the first 40 people on the streets of Seattle and elect the US president based on those votes.For example, we were camping in Rio Blanco and we heard about it afterwards. After that time the situation is also different. Opinions of back then are not current.

Kimbo

Trad climber

seattle

Jan 27, 2012 - 07:03pm PT

no terve teille kahelle!

nyt loppu minun kirjoittelu. tarpeeks on tarpeeks!

Hyvaa vointia teille.

Thanks everyone for participating and reaching consensus:)

Good health and happiness to all, and arrivaderci.

Kinobi

climber

Jan 28, 2012 - 02:48am PT

OT "Putanesca" may be Italian Sounding.
But Spelling is wrong in original language.

Anyway, ask Garibotti the correct spelling, he knows how to change it.
Best,
E

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 28, 2012 - 03:06am PT

I have to recognize something of Garibotti's fanatism.
He is consistent.

No Rolando.
Now he wishes that the same style used on the Compressor's route will be applied for other bolt ladders of the world.

Chapeau

Wildincognito

Ice climber

Eastside

Jan 28, 2012 - 03:36am PT

WTF
This is the new justification for an elitist attitude. Why the hell did you leave anything!!! Too weak to finish the job??? Not cool men (boys)?!. At least HE claimed (climbed) to finish the job/ you just climbed (claimed) to leave it undone. Weak ass shit!!! Learn how to chop. If it's worth doing- it's worth doing right. Now someone has to fix this crap--- one way or another.
Nice summit post (pic). Did you ever read Galen Rowell's article. Way better perspective from the summit. Think twice... cut once!!!
At least no one died... I hope I can still say that 20 years from now.
Oh yeah!!!
You're gonna die...

p.s. " in the end, the king and the pawn end up in the same box"

(edit) as the saying goes
"in the game of chess"

WBraun

climber

Jan 28, 2012 - 10:52am PT

p.s. " in the end, the king and the pawn end up in the same box"

No

The king gets a gold box. The pawn gets a pine box.

You're a terrible observer ....

BASE104

climber

An Oil Field

Jan 28, 2012 - 12:29pm PT

I saw that there is now a facebook page on chopping the Nose.

The only pitches that aren't on the free version are the Jardine Traverse and the Headwall pitch. Well, that traverse into the stovelegs.

The Nose is so freaking long that the short bolt ladders connecting the features seem short and reasonable. It wasn't like Harding threw in 15 bolts at a belay. The Nose is covered with pendulums to avoid bolting.

That and the Nose is right up there with the best rock climbs in the world. It is that good.

I have no opinion regarding the Compressor Route, other than I remember how it was widely disrespected. Mountain Magazine (a really great british climbing mag) really took it to task. Poor Maestri.

Then you have to remember the days. During that time the best line was regarded as the most direct line. Even if it meant spending weeks drilling a bolt ladder to the summit rather than swing 20 feet over to nab a crack.

Dolomites history. Perhaps someone could enlighten us.

This was what was really pissing Messner off. Drilling a bolt ladder from bottom to top isn't really climbing. Perhaps engineering would be a better term.

BASE104

climber

An Oil Field

Jan 28, 2012 - 12:34pm PT

You have to realize that by now, many of the classic Mt. Blanc routes have been bolted.

The guides live longer that way.

Totally freaked me out when I saw a recent shot of the Cherie Coulour. That sucker eats natural pro. Now you need draws.

It seemed like it from the pic I saw, anyway.

WBraun

climber

Jan 28, 2012 - 12:34pm PT

Nobody is chopping the Nose.

There would be major ass kicking.

This is America the land of violence .....

BASE104

climber

An Oil Field

Jan 28, 2012 - 12:45pm PT

Aww..I think the era of ass kicking is over. Why would you punch someone out over a climb? Not that it hasn't been done, of course.

I'll say it again, though. The Nose is probably in the top ten in quality of routes of its length in the world.

I dunno what it is with the Italians being the ones shouting the loudest over this. Certainly many Italians wouldn't have put up the Compressor route. I find it hard to believe that they are so vocal over it.

But Rolo. He is probably in a better position to comment than anyone.

I bet Donini is climbing down there as we speak.

I've seen pictures of the Ferrari route, and it looks like Alice in Wonderland. I know it is harder to get to, but it looks totally classic.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 28, 2012 - 01:13pm PT

Knicker twisting and panty wringing has turned into thong strumming.

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jan 28, 2012 - 01:30pm PT

Grab a shotgun - this thread is the living dead.

Nick Cradock

Trad climber

Jan 28, 2012 - 03:10pm PT

I agree with Steve Schnieder. What a couple of tw#ts. I climbed the rte & summited in 1987, inspired by watching Bridwell & Brewer on the headwall in 1979. This was a historic rte. Maestri & co had no cams, no nuts, no lightweight gear, etc. Bet Kennedy & Kruz used some of the original bolts for the raps. They must have felt a certain sense of safety climbing their minor variation beside the bolts.
Seriously, are these guys members of the Tea Party, religous right, born agains? Their righteous fervour makes me want to puke.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 28, 2012 - 03:33pm PT

Are you kidding man?
You are talking about a FERRATA!
F E R R A T A !!!!
Ask Garibotti ... he is THE Guru!
He is the saviour of Cerro Torre!
:-)))

yanqui

climber

Balcarce, Argentina

Jan 28, 2012 - 04:02pm PT

Wasn't one of the reasons Bridwell And Brewer could be so inspiring on the headwall was because someone had smashed some bolts? Just asking.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 29, 2012 - 01:51pm PT

Time to find another dead horse to beat. This subject has jumped the shark.

pedrito

Trad climber

patagonia

Jan 29, 2012 - 10:42pm PT

These guys have no right to change any of that route. It doesn´t belong to them, the final decition they made. They are a couple of ass#!.. who follow somebody else's thoughts. The think they have changed the course of history, but they behaved the old way, not respecting the local climbers comunitty.
They have recently been declared "NON Wanted People" in te small village of El Chaltén. They should be ashamed of what they have done, dismissing a previous local agreement of not touching such an histotical route.

I know they will regrett some day... but know it's too late.

pp

djb

Boulder climber

Syracuse, NY

Jan 29, 2012 - 11:57pm PT

absolutely ridiculous. how anyone could applaud Kennedy and Kruk is beyond me. Ever area I have climbed has local ethics on bolting. It was very clear before their attempt that local consensus was to leave the bolts. Their acts and explanation reek of lies, hypocrisy and obnoxious arrogance. Whether or not you agree in bolting, their act and explanation simply should not be supported. They potentially could have put someone in danger, such as Lama, who had expected the bolts to be there. makes me want to puke. and thank god Lama made the first true fair means free ascent!!! kudos to Lama for apologizing for his previous mistake and then taking away what Kennedy and Kruk thought they had. justice indeed. no doubt they are impressive climbers, but their legacy will forever be linked to this error. hopefully they will mature and one day apologize for their blunder. must have been brain washed by the likes of Ken Nichols, bolt chopping extremest, who had his car mega-bolted by those sick and tired of his idiotic, selfish, disrespectful and arrogant acts similar to Kennedy and Kruk's.

WBraun

climber

Jan 30, 2012 - 12:31am PT

absolutely ridiculous. how anyone could applaud Kennedy and Kruk is beyond me.

Must be above your pay scale?

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Jan 30, 2012 - 12:36am PT

"They have recently been declared "NON Wanted People" in the small village of El Chaltén. They should be ashamed of what they have done, dismissing a previous local agreement of not touching such an histotical route."

Really? Is this true? Can anyone else corroborate this?

bmacd

Mountain climber

100% Canadian

Jan 30, 2012 - 01:04am PT

A nat geo article just came out with Jasons photos in it ( I used their image links ) and a very god historical perspective

http://ngadventure.typepad.com/blog/2012/01/patagonias-cerro-torre-climbing-controversy-maestri-unbolted.html

National Geographic accurately calls out Cesare Maestri as a liar

Hayden way psyched !

Looks like Hayden was totally on fire on the headwall.

micronut

Trad climber

Jan 30, 2012 - 01:40am PT

Well done article.
Thanks for sharing that. It put some of the craziness into perspective. Every chapter in alpine history has its heroes and villains. I think that bolt ladder and compressor (like other historic alpine rubbish memorabilia) was a wacky piece of alpine history......

A scar on a grand mountain, yeah. Like the Cables on Half Dome or the Gallery Window on The Eiger. But in my not too important opinion, it should have been left until a local consensus of some sort was achieved. Great talent and a proud ascent for the guys. Maybe a bit of a poor decision, that was not theirs to make, on the way down. Either way, time will write the final chapter. It will be interesting to see all of their thoughts (on both sides) 20 years from now.

sac

Trad climber

Sun Coast B.C.

Jan 30, 2012 - 02:05am PT

5.11 A2

Wow.

Wonder what they are calling their "variation"... er... route?

Any more details of FFA?

shipoopoi

Big Wall climber

oakland

Jan 30, 2012 - 02:27am PT

this route is/was no freaking via ferrata. pisses me off when i hear that. just because donini says it is a ferrata, doesn't mean shite. it is NOT. the first eight pitches go up cracks with maybe 3 or 4 bolts on the first eight pitches, and probably placed after 1970. yeah, maestri didn't even break out the compressor for the first 8 pitches.

THIS ROUTE WAS CHOPPED BY ELITIST, FOR ELITIST, SO EVERYYBODY HAS TO RAISE THE BAR TO THEIR BITCHIN LEVEL, not because the route was so big an atrocity.

Pedrito, i did my best five years ago to save the route. i know you locals must be pissed off. i was there for the "vote" and i know it meant something. i know jason and hayden where lucky to avoid some real retribution in el chalten, care of the boys. a lot of people don't realize there are a lot of pissed off spanish speaking people down there. i respect your wishes to make them a non-wanted person in el chalten. i don't want them in my town either.

nick craddock, are you still alive down there in kiwiland, good to hear your opinion.

so yeah, i guess the route can go back up. just the way they removed the bolts and left the holes. a few removable bolts, some bathooking, and some genuine bolt replacement, although without any drilling. doesn't seem much harder than when bridwell headed and hooked past maestri's own chopped section to the summit. yeah, those choppers didn't hardly do shite, except stoke thier own ego's.

just some thoughts... ss

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 30, 2012 - 03:20am PT

Shipoopoi ... Thanks ...

Sometimes, from climbing forum, it's hard to get what's going on in the place where events occur ... from Garibotti's posts or aticles it seemed like the consensus around the K&K action was broader and stronger also there ... but time is showing that is not the case ... the most locals were against the idea of chopping the Compressor's bolts.

By the way, I didn't know UIAA already established a norm about ethic in foreign countries ...

Article 4 – Visiting Foreign Countries
maxim
When we are guests in foreign countries, we should always conduct ourselves politely and with restraint. We should show consideration to the
local people and their culture – they are our hosts. We should respect local climbing ethics and style and never drill holes or place bolts where there is a traditional ethic against it or where no locally established ethics exists. We will respect holy mountains and other sacred places and always look for ways to benefit and assist local economies and people. An understanding of foreign cultures is part of a complete climbing experience.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Jan 30, 2012 - 07:43am PT

Shipoopi, sorry man, you´re right in that there is plenty of REAL climbing on the Compressor Route, I just think that there is too much needless bolting for such an iconic mountain. Still in Chilean Patagonia where the weather just broke after a 13 day good spell- back in Estados Unidos on Saturday.

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 30, 2012 - 08:17am PT

Shipoopi, if it makes you feel better I heard they are planning to apologize in 30 years.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Jan 30, 2012 - 08:55am PT

I just think that there is too much needless bolting for such an iconic mountain

and so what? I can say the same for the Nose and hunderd of other routes on iconic mountanis. is this enough to go there and chop everything?

let's say that chopping that bolts on THAT iconic mountain you can't go unnoticed and maybe the real point in this dirty affair is just becoming fam... ehm notorious

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 30, 2012 - 09:54am PT

I met several people who climbed the Compressor route ...
None of them consider the Compressor route a "ferrata" and all of them considered it quite challenging also in relationship to the weather they found on Cerro Torre ...

I met people who told me that, when thex climbed Cerro Torre, the cracks were full of ice ...

So, I suspect there is more than mere ethical criticism when some climbers call the Compressor route a "ferrata" ...

I wonder if K&K could still climb the Compressor route almost boltless using climbing boots of 40 years ago,
no nuts,
no camelots,
no skyhooks,
no modern aidclimbing devices,
no previous knowledge of the route,
bad weather, etc ...
... and still call it "ferrata" ...

@blackspider
If it will make you feel better, many of Maestri's bolts will be replaced with shining, safe and bomberproof modern bolts ... so ... don't worry ...

shipoopoi

Big Wall climber

oakland

Jan 30, 2012 - 09:57am PT

donini, thanks for the reply. it's personally frustrating to have failed on four expeditions to climb what people have been calling a via ferrata. but that's my problem. sounds like the weather has been too good to be true recently, hope you enjoyed it. i know how you feel about the bolts, and if you missed an earlier post of mine, i respect that opinion and wouldn't try and change it. the bottom line is that we both cherish cerro torre, so i feel there is more common ground than differential. ss

ionlyski

Trad climber

Kalispell, Montana

Jan 30, 2012 - 10:06am PT

THIS ROUTE WAS CHOPPED BY ELITIST, FOR ELITIST, SO EVERYYBODY HAS TO RAISE THE BAR TO THEIR BITCHIN LEVEL, not because the route was so big an atrocity

So. It's a extraordinary spire. You shouldn't be able to go to the top unless you can, on your own. I can't. I am not part of that elite, that has paid their dues to make it to that level. I need to stay content that I can go look at it if I want and be damn glad for that!

Arne

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 30, 2012 - 10:09am PT

If it will make you feel better, many of Maestri's bolts will be replaced with shining, safe and bomberproof modern bolts ... so ... don't worry ...

People keep talking about that, let's see someone actually do it.

By the sounds of it, the people who are most upset about this are non-climbers and older Italians. I'm not holding my breath on the action on this one matching up with the talk. But of course, anyone is free to drill some bolts, or to chop some.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 30, 2012 - 10:21am PT

@blackspider,
that's your assumption, which is just wrong. Garibotti is not the only climber living in El Chalten. There are other climbers who live there and condamned the K&K action ...
David Lama - who is a climber who freed the route - said that K&K had no right to chop the route.
Many Italians, included myself, consider Maestri's style on the Compressor route, a badd style ... still you don't get that the issue is not about the bolts, but the fact that, in case, should not have been done by two foreigners against locals (who are also climbers), and other climbers.
For the rest I agree with you ... no big deal ... chop now ... bolts later ...

But I also have my assumptions.
My assumption is that who supports chopping Compressor route are either ignorant, arrogant or fanatic ... nothing less ...

@ionlyski

THIS ROUTE WAS CHOPPED BY ELITIST, FOR ELITIST, SO EVERYYBODY HAS TO RAISE THE BAR TO THEIR BITCHIN LEVEL, not because the route was so big an atrocity

So. It's a extraordinary spire. You shouldn't be able to go to the top unless you can, on your own. I can't. I am not part of that elite, that has paid their dues to make it to that level. I need to stay content that I can go look at it if I want and be damn glad for that!

Arne

Does it mean that if someone freesolo a route, is entitle to remove all protections?

Johnny K.

climber

Jan 30, 2012 - 10:27am PT

This thread is still going with all this mumbo jumbo?

The strewn bolts never belonged up there to begin with and have only been an insult to the beautiful mountains.Anyone thinking different is a selfish egotistical fool with no regard or respect for nature,just like Maestri was when he forced his bolts onto the mountain,didnt even summit and claimed the route in his delusional disrespectful mind.

The cad

climber

Does it matter, really?!?

Jan 30, 2012 - 10:28am PT

By the sounds of it, the people who are most upset about this are non-climbers and older Italians

Welcome among non-climbers, shipoopoi!

And, enzolino, how old are you?
Do you qualify as "older Italian"?
Are you a non-climber too?

LOL

MisterE

Social climber

Jan 30, 2012 - 10:33am PT

Yes, the Compressor Route is a piece of history.

The question is, as climbers: Is it the kind of historical route we want to be regarded and remembered by the world as representative of our community?

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 30, 2012 - 10:33am PT

Steve Schneider chopped bolts on jumar and lied about it for 30 years. For him to be getting all self-righteous over this is just absolutely hilarious.

The cad

climber

Does it matter, really?!?

Jan 30, 2012 - 10:38am PT

The question is, as climbers: Is it the kind of historical route we want to be regarded and remembered by the world as representative of our community?

The answer is, as a climber: I couldn't care less of what the world thinks of our supposed representative routes.
Moreover, I guess the world couldn't care less of climbers and their stupid games.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 30, 2012 - 10:40am PT

The strewn bolts never belonged up there to begin with and have only been an insult to the beautiful mountains.Anyone thinking different is a selfish egotistical fool with no regard or respect for nature,just like Maestri was when he forced his bolts onto the mountain,didnt even summit and claimed the route in his delusional disrespectful mind.

One of my assumptions is correct.
Someone who ignores that a large percentage of routes has been opened forcing the rock (rivets, holes, bolts, etc) is just ignorant. The mountain doesn't give a damn if its surface is itched with some metals ...
Anyway, also Garibotti placed bolts on Cerro Torre ... at least one ...

And, enzolino, how old are you?
Do you qualify as "older Italian"?
Are you a non-climber too?

How old am I?
The few hair left on my head are white ... ehm ... I don't remember my age ... but ... I guess people would say I'm old?
Am I a climber?
... mmm ...
Don't tell anybody ... I'm not a climber ... I'm paid by the Supertopo crew to keep this thread alive ...

Blackspider must be right ...

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Jan 30, 2012 - 10:50am PT

Strangely, out of the blue, I got a call last night from one of the WoS choppers (he had a case stuck in his gun).

We talked about both choppings and, unlike Steve, he was unrepentant.

Ah well,....

I thought Greg Child calling the actual compressor "the crazy uncle in the attic of mountaineering" was brilliant.

We gotta hear from the guy who actually completed the Compressor Route,...

Jim???

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Jan 30, 2012 - 10:51am PT

Enzolino,

Thanks. This maxim provides a succinct justification for the removal of the Compressor's bolts.

Johnny K.

climber

Jan 30, 2012 - 10:52am PT

Piton Ron,Bridwell called Maestri a pussy for his actions and bolting.I think that sums up what Jim thinks. =D

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 30, 2012 - 10:56am PT

Rolo's words bear repeating here:

"Some of the townspeople, largely non-climbers, believe they should be the ones deciding what happens up on the hills. They seem to forget that a self-regulating international community of ‘locals’ has been visiting these mountains year in year out since the 1930s. To me their reaction is not unlike the reaction of an ignorant football fan. When the Argentine National team plays I am often that person, shouting at the couch and players even if I know next to nothing about what they are attempting to do on the pitch, or the real difficulties they are facing. The difference is that I don’t expect anyone to take my football opinions seriously."

If there was a debate as to whether or not to bolt lines on the Buttermilks, would every soccer mom living in Bishop and Big Pine get to vote on it?

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 30, 2012 - 10:57am PT

Enzolino,

Thanks. This maxim provides a succinct justification for the removal of the Compressor's bolts.

Snorky,
the locals consider Maestri's bolts sacred ... it's thanks to the Compressor's route that the place has some business ...
Now, with just elite climbers, all the business will go bankrupt ...

Poor El Chanten ...

So, K&K, violated the sacre bolts ... this is why the police confiscated them ...

jfs

Trad climber

Upper Leftish

Jan 30, 2012 - 10:57am PT

i may be ignorant, arrogant AND a fanatic actually. =) And my opinion on this counts for precisely diddly-squat. So since I'm batting a thousand so far......might as well take another swing or two...

Mountains and routes have always been about statements. Either to yourself or to the world. But as much weight as we give to our little mountain games, in the end, very little about what we do is important enough to warrant this much angst.

K&K's actions were, at the worst, undiplomatic. No one was harmed. The mountain has, inarguably, been returned to a more aesthetic ideal.

I can support that.

I dream of summits that are simply impossible. Peaks that repel every single attempt. Where no one has ever set foot. Mountains that will require absolutely everything from those who attempt it...and yet still turn them away. Cerro Torre is as near to that as any peak on the planet. In two years I hope to be lucky enough to toss my own hat into the ring and take a few shots at its walls.

How did Maestri's bolts go from abomination to national (or local) symbol of pride anyway? I don't understand the support. I admit I see some parallels to El Cap...but somehow I place the two in different categories. Cerro Torre is the alpine ideal...El Cap is a big wall playground.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 30, 2012 - 11:03am PT

Piton Ron,Bridwell called Maestri a pussy for his actions and bolting.I think that sums up what Jim thinks. =D

I've read Jim Bridwell's book.
For him everybody, except himself, is a pussy.
He is the last ultimate true man.

The funny thing is that he places bolts on his routes, but gets mad if everybody else does it ...

Very high example of consistency ...

Johnny K.

climber

Jan 30, 2012 - 11:04am PT

Ohh cry me a river,Bridwell is legit as they come.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 30, 2012 - 11:06am PT

Instead of twisting your panties in the public punch bowl why don't you angry Italians go make a real bold statement. Get your haul on, fire up a gas powered compressor and finish that route on Latok that those four American Pussies couldn't do. Though they climbed by fair means and never falsely "claimed" a summit. That must be an American failing.

Studly

Trad climber

Jan 30, 2012 - 11:13am PT

some day this war's going to end....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBksHaTQCbU&feature=related

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 30, 2012 - 11:15am PT

Come on philo ... don't make me laugh ... you and all those boys who play about "national climbing performance" ...

Italians don't need to prove anything ...
Ferrari, in 1974, climbed Cerro Torre "by fair means" ...
And the list of fair mains and outstanding Italian achievements is too long to be counted ...
Just few names ...
Bonatti, Cassin, Messner, Ferrari, Hans Kammerlander, Simone Moro (who now is attempting Nanga Parbat in winter, fingers crossed ..), and so on ...

But if you want to play ... let's play ...
Are you talking to me????

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Jan 30, 2012 - 11:31am PT

I agree Enzo... Italian climbers have done quite a few things American climbers couldn't do and for sure I seriously doubt that the chopping of bolts on CT is the peak achievement of American mountaineering. LOL...

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 30, 2012 - 11:36am PT

Well ... we can say americans (but let's not forget canadians) are good at something ...

We can say they are the best choppers in the world ... LOL

PS. My boss is american (a great person!) ... if he reads this stuff ... he will fire me!!! :-)

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jan 30, 2012 - 11:38am PT

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 30, 2012 - 11:48am PT

Italians don't need to prove anything ...
Ferrari, in 1974, climbed Cerro Torre "by fair means" ...
And the list of fair mains and outstanding Italian achievements is too long to be counted ...
Just few names ...
Bonatti, Cassin, Messner, Ferrari, Hans Kammerlander, Simone Moro (who now is attempting Nanga Parbat in winter, fingers crossed ..), and so on ...

Enzolino there are a great many of us old school American climbers who are well aware of and in awe of what Italian Alpinists and Mountaineers have accomplished. It is truly one of the proudest histories. I for one am an avid follower of their incredible achievements. Except for the Bolt Route on Cerro Torre. That was an aberration and an atrocity. Which is why many of the remarkable Italian climbers you mentioned are them selves appalled by what Maestri did.
It is honestly baffling to many of us why some of you vehemently insist on hallowing this alpine abomination. Even when you yourselves decry the route as having been done in bad style.

My Latok comment was meant to be absurd. Because this thread has become absurd.
Re-bolting Cerro Torre or un-bolting the Nose is just verbal masturbation. Messy and unsatisfying.

PS. My boss is american (a great person!) ... if he reads this stuff ... he will fire me!!! :-)

Enzo, if he tries you tell him that SuperTopo will open up a can of whoop ass American style on him.
We don't have to agree but you have a right to your opinions and shouldn't face dismissal because of expressing them. Cheers.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 30, 2012 - 12:03pm PT

Ever beat a dead horse with a different stick?
It makes a phunny sound. :)

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 30, 2012 - 12:09pm PT

...the locals consider Maestri's bolts sacred ... it's thanks to the Compressor's route that the place has some business ...

Here's what the local outrage really boils down to - not climbing, but the commercialization of an abortion.

Shake your money maker
Like somebody about to pay you
I see you on my radar
Don't you act like you afraid of
Shh...

You know I got it
If you want it, come get it
Stand next to this money
Like - ey ey ey

Shake your money maker
Like somebody boutta pay you
Don't worry about them haters
Keep your nose up in the air
You know I got it

If you want it, come get it
Stand next to this money
Like - ey ey ey

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 30, 2012 - 12:10pm PT

Philo,
I know.
It looks paradoxical.
Perhaps because we read Maestri's books and became very empathic towards him. His traumatic experience the first time, the anger because of the mistrust, his extravagant character, and so on.
Perhaps because we were familiar with the "dark" age of superdirettissimas and the bolt ladders of that period in Dolomite. But that period made ethic stronger, and Messner great purism was an example of reaction to that period. He (Messner) made outstanding climbs in the Alps, before Himalaya, solo or with his partners.
So, the "dark period" for us was part of the learning process.
If the chopping would have been carried on differently, without that unfair anti-Maestri propaganda, I think many italians would have supported the chopping of the Compressor route.
But the way it occurred, very despectively towards Maestri and the learning process that we call "history", pisses off many of us.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 30, 2012 - 12:12pm PT

Understood.

Clearly I disagree but I do now understand better. Thank you.

Gene

climber

Jan 30, 2012 - 12:17pm PT

Nice post, Enzolino.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 30, 2012 - 12:40pm PT

But the way it occurred, very disrespectively towards Maestri and the learning process that we call "history", pisses off many of us.

Trying to rationalize what occurred in 1970 or pass it off as simply a part of, or an extension to, a natural "learning process", is what pisses off many others of us. It was neither, and no one in the whole sad compressor saga has disrespected Maestri more the he himself has.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Jan 30, 2012 - 12:44pm PT

blah blah blah, anyway lads went abroad to chop torre, rest assured that if they chopped the nose rangers would have jailed them and thrown away the key for a long while

easy choice for them, isn't it?

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 30, 2012 - 12:46pm PT

blah, blah, blah is right - commercialism and entirely misplaced nationalism.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jan 30, 2012 - 12:46pm PT

How long will it be before the Kruk/Kennedy line, or the Lama line, or whatever is the line of least resistance on the headwall, is dumbed down by the addition of fixed pins, maybe a bolt here and there, and so on? So that it is again more accessible, perhaps at the behest of commercial interests? It's a progression that tends to happen elsewhere.

We can perhaps agree that if the southeast ridge is in effect the descent for all routes on Cerro Torre, it makes some sense if there are fixed rappel stations, to minimize junk proliferation. Hopefully more or less corresponding to required belays. But with that, and perhaps some fixed pins and added bolts, it may again be less of a challenge.

One note in all of this is of course that Jason tried the climb a year ago, with Chris Geisler from Vancouver. They were defeated only 40 m from the icecap, and the route Jason and Hayden took this year is much the same. Chris should get some credit for helping create the new line.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 30, 2012 - 12:56pm PT

So don't patch the holes...

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Jan 30, 2012 - 01:46pm PT

yes commercialism, instead being forgotten for a minor route variant, they chopped and got the spotlight of the media...

I agree commercialism

crunch

Social climber

Jan 30, 2012 - 02:06pm PT

The Nose of El Cap is not a great analogy. Chop the finishing bolt ladders? Anyone can still get to the top via another route of equivalent difficulty (eg Salathe) or even by hiking. Besides, the Nose gets done every day. Guarantee it would be re-established in hours.

A better analogy is with some of the early bolt ladders in the Fisher Towers. These are true summits, and only technical climbing can reach them.

Especially the Colorado Northeast Ridge of Kingfisher. Harvey Carter was frustrated that he'd missed out on the FA of the largest tower of the group, the Titan, so he kinda did a mini-Maestri on the next-biggest, Kingfisher:

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/kingfisher/105716856

Lots of bolts. An obvious, wide crack that ascends the final 100 feet was ignored in favor of the blank "diretissima" arete just left. This was back in 1962. Fisher Towers area has great weather but the rock is umm, unusual, so there is a slow learning curve as to what is possible. Locating crack systems takes practice as there is dried mud covering much of the rock. Several early routes have lots of bolts.

Anyway, the next-easiest route to the summit of Kingfisher is damn difficult. The debate that would follow chopping Carter's route would be very interesting.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 30, 2012 - 02:09pm PT

Finally a more appropriate analogy. TFPU Crunch.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Jan 30, 2012 - 02:11pm PT

for sure. just another evidence, were it be necessary, of the double standards

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Jan 30, 2012 - 02:23pm PT

Crunch,
great analogy. Harvey as CM.

Many people don't know about the Fishers. (and they are the lucky ones)

enzolino,
you have neglected Marco Pedrini.
Cumbre blew my mind (and I was sitting near Jeff Lowe and know he was likewise impressed).
Riding the compressor like a motorcycle? Brilliant.

Anyway Bird might have considered Maestri a pussy but Jim's views have morphed substantially over the years to say the least.
It would be great if he weighed in now.

Even though he hated the act, the route itself was a crowning achievement for a guy previously known as head kahuna of C4.

And what of the chopping now?

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 30, 2012 - 02:37pm PT

Thanks Gene.

enzolino,
you have neglected Marco Pedrini.
Cumbre blew my mind (and I was sitting near Jeff Lowe and know he was likewise impressed).
Riding the compressor like a motorcycle? Brilliant.

Piton,
I haven't neglected Marco Pedrini ... but Marco Pedrini is ... was Swiss ... (died rappeling on the Drus ...)
And Cumbre is one of my favorite videos ... too crazy ... too magic ...

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Jan 30, 2012 - 02:48pm PT

Oops.
Thought he was further south.

Cor

climber

Colorado

Jan 30, 2012 - 05:09pm PT

maybe we need the wingman to help out with all these troubles...
[Click to View YouTube Video]

[youtube=http://youtu.be/Rf3cvg-qrD0]

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 30, 2012 - 06:03pm PT

LOL.:-)

Tahoe climber

climber

Davis these days

Jan 30, 2012 - 07:47pm PT

Some great debate here, and undoubtably one of the best threads I've ever read. I very much respect both sides of this debate, and love that many of the climbing greats from many countries have chimed in with their opinions. Wonderful reading and very inspiring, regardless of which side you come down on. SO much cooler than the Super Bowl!

I'm in support of K&K's chopping, as was most of the most experienced and educated and knowledgeable climbers. For example Rolo. And for example Kelly Cordes, whose dialogue above was well-reasoned, educated and most importantly, RIGHT.
And I also contend that Maestri himself showed signs of agreement with this action, 40 years ago.

Doesn't his story show that even he began removing his own bolts on the descent from his final summit attempt? But he ran out of time and motivation and gave up and left?

Boys and girls, if EVEN HE knew it was wrong, what exactly are you trying to protect? What more obvious action can you follow than his?

As for the vote, 30 out of 40 isn't enough people for any kind of a poll, study or democratic process, so the vote NO wasn't even close to legit.

They did the right thing. The pictures show all that you need to know. A monstrosity of a bolting job that has been LONG overdue. Just look at the pictures again. They tell you everything!

Good on ya, K&K - proud work. Wish you could have finished the job, but I appreciate the effort, and will stand with you in telling all the other concerned citizens to man up and do the route the way it should go, not by some clip up that now goes free anyway.

History my ASS.

Maestri, though undeniably talented, was either temporarily crazy, or an idiot, or such an egomaniac that he was not quite rational until the end when he saw the light and began removing them.

It was an awful abomination that would have been erased LONG ago if it was more accessible. This time it was, because the guys flew up the route and had some extra time in a good weather window.

My 2 cents, which is just an opinion after happily digging through it all -

Aaron

PS: Huge thank you for all posters who kept this debate pretty civil, and pretty climbing focused. Definitely why I lurk on the forum, and one of the cooler phenomena that I've witnessed here.

Stewart Johnson

climber

lake forest

Jan 30, 2012 - 09:58pm PT

so just what kind of climbing makes you go crazy?
and where can i get this?

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Jan 30, 2012 - 11:58pm PT

How's about some of you Eye-Talians give ol' Cesare a ring, then grab your laptop and go visit him. Maybe he doesn't know how to reply to this post, and could use a bit of computer help from one of you?

We would very much love to hear from him!

Bring on Maestri! Maestri! Maestri!

djb

Boulder climber

Syracuse, NY

Jan 31, 2012 - 12:02am PT

I keep reading all these post that support the chopping and i just don't get it. when i heard the first report of the ascent and bolt chopping i was psyched for them. however, once the true story came out that there was not consensus and they did it "secretively" I changed my opinion 180. to me the past has nothing to do with why someone would support their act. they did it in total disregard of the locals and without thinking about parties who were behind them that had planned on using the bolts. makes me sick to my stomach...the arrogance and selfishness, even if people were supporting the chopping. that doesn't matter. you should respect the climber that immediatley behind you. if it was so important to the climbing community it should have been done in an organized fashion, allowing parties (such as Lama!) to figure out a new plan of attack. they lied about their intentions saying they hadn't thought about it before they summited, yet state they decided to use a belay because they knew they weren't going to chop it. then hypocritically chose to avoid chopping some bolts because their friends coming up needed them. then stating that many climbers had fun on the mountain, but today is a new era of Cerro Torre. how f'n arogant could you be. I'm an american and I date a canadian....we both think we suck. and btw, after reading their explanation she looked at me and said, "what a couple of obnoxious, arrogant a-holes."

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber

San Francisco

Jan 31, 2012 - 12:17am PT

Oh sh#t over a 1000 comments! Since I can care less to read everything I will throw my 2cents.

Personally I think it would not matter if the bolts stayed. Them being there and every party climbing some other route is a big enough statement. Don't have to chop it, just don't climb it. Not sure how I feel about someone chopping someone's route, even though it was not supposed to be a route (IMO). Just can't pick a side. Feels like they did the right thing, but it is kind of disrespectful from the other side...
Last year huge majority of parties climbed other routes, not compressor. So that says something.
General public doesn't give a sh#t about these routes. No one cares. To general public climbing Everest is 100000x the accomplishment than Cerro Torre. So no one should care about what this route represented to general public. Cuz general public simply doesn't know/care.

And why care about everyone thinks? Everyone has an opinion. BUT, it is already chopped now! Done deal! Adios! I don't think anyone will re bolt it..? If someone does, that would be quite a hit for another thread.

house of cards

climber

Jan 31, 2012 - 12:17am PT

To anyone that believes that Argentine climbers are against the action taken by Kruk and Kennedy I suggest you do your best to read spanish and read this letter from Sebastian de la Cruz, together with Jose Luis Fonrouge the greatest Argentine alpinist and climber of all time.

http://www.lacachania.com.ar/noticia.php?id_nota=201&id_seccion=3

Seba's resume: Fitz Roy at 16, first winter ascent of Fitz Roy at 17, Torre at 19, K2 at 25 and many many other brillant climbs.

Comesaña and De la Cruz support the action. No need to mention Garibotti who has made his views more than clear.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Jan 31, 2012 - 01:57am PT

in the land of right and wrong

in the land of manichean

in the land of rock ethicists

in the land of coherence

... those who like to be fags with everybody's else arse

house of cards

climber

Jan 31, 2012 - 02:16am PT

Lama: What's your opinion about what Jason K. and Hyden K did?
They climbed a route without using bolts, that is actually ok, that's their style and it's fine. But what they did during the decent, to remove the bolts, was not very intelligent. I believe they were not entitled to do it.

What do you think about the discussion that was triggered regarding Maestri's bolts? Is it fair to use them to reach the summit? Is it fair to use any mean to achieve the goal?
I think the matter is more about destroying or not. In my opinion, for the first ascent (Maestri's), he was entitled to do on the mountain whatever he wanted to do, and at the same time he should have made his best. In both cases, adding or removing bolts, destroy the route. It's destroying what some body else has done and nobody is entitled to destroy it. The issue are not your skills, whether you're able to climb with or without bolts, but the fact thyt they were on the wall, then who is entitled to add or remove bolts if you're not able to climb (the route)?

Curious to read that the guy who was responsible for adding some 40 bolts to the Compressor route is now up on his horse being righteous. Nice consistency David! seems like you have more than a little growing up to do.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Jan 31, 2012 - 02:39am PT

thank you djb!

your testimony helps a lot in avoiding the easy generalizaion about noth americans.

so they are not all the same arrogant imperialist a-holes that one could evince by reading this thread

The cad

climber

Does it matter, really?!?

Jan 31, 2012 - 03:03am PT

Curious to read that the guy who was responsible for adding some 40 bolts to the Compressor route...

Curious to see yet one more time how most of the people who write here never bother to get correctly informed, or to read other people comments.

The cad

climber

Does it matter, really?!?

Jan 31, 2012 - 03:19am PT

"Certainly this [a rotting piton removed by Hill from the dihedral prior to the Great Roof], the numerous piton scars on other sections, and the fact that there are chipped holds on the Jardine Traverse detract from the purity of the route as a 'free climb'. But these elements were all part of what marked the history of human passage and our evolving definition of success."
--Lynn Hill, from "El Capitan's Nose Climbed Free", AAJ 1994

THIS is a class act IMVHO.
Quite different from what K&K did on their descent.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 31, 2012 - 03:56am PT

Good post Cad.
I think many people stil don't get it. That the issue is not just about chopping or bolting, but the meaning attributed to something done in the past which, good or bad, is part of our learning process.

Everybody is pulling a famous name on his side. But in my view this shows that the chopping of the Compressor route had still to wait.

Hey Enzolino,

Has Signore Maestri offered an opinion ? This discussion revolves around ideals of respect for other people's work and their feelings, so how does he feel?

I think Maestri couldn't care less for the bolts of the Compressor route. He always said that he hates Cerro Torre.
But I believe he cares about Respect. And this is what was missing before the chopping of the route and also afterwards.
Salvaterra wanted to ask him to remove them, but he never did it.

What puzzles me most of Maestri, is his vehement fight to scream to the world about his route in 1959.
The evidence is strongly against him.
And I don't think is just a matter of "ego".
Could it be to give honor to the memory of Egger?
To keep alive his credibility?
Or is somewhere there a missing piece of the Cerro Torre puzzle?
Wrong face? Wrong recollections?
Just some thougths ...

mika

Big Wall climber

Zurich, switzerland

Jan 31, 2012 - 04:18am PT

Cleaning the compressor route vs. copping the compressor route

Perhaps the point that the compressor route should have been sanified and not totaly copped should be noted. To establish a new line on the original compressor route with hook moves, bolts and pendulum traverses making it more of a technical challange should have been the goal of kruck and Kennedy, not the total destruction of an established route. But more easy is the destruction because you dont have to think or use your brain.

One may not forget that the real chalange of Torre is the wind and weather not the technical difficulty. Also the route "by fair means" 5.11, A2+ is indeed no technical wonder in it self.
The only positive aspect of copping the compressor route will be that, the class of the climbers visiting the Bridwell camp will definitely rise. As to date so many "arrogant" type climbers including Kennedy and Kruck have been attracted by the compressor route and it has been well visible to all patagonian veterans, that unfriendly, nero type climbers have been hanging out in the Bridwell camp. So, the clean up will be at least in the camp, and thats a first step.

Mike Schwitter

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 31, 2012 - 04:52am PT

As to date so many "boso-ashole-arrogant" type climbers including Kennedy and Kruck have been attracted by the compressor route

Utter bullshit!
First, K&K are not "boso-ashole-arrogant" type climbers.
Secondly they are too good of climbers to have been "attracted" to the attrocious "Bolt Route".

Grow up!

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 31, 2012 - 04:58am PT

Philo,
Mike doesn't need to be attracted by the Compressor route ... he already climbed it in 1991 (+Fitz Roy). And he is an outstanding climber who opened several bold routes in the Alps ...

As you can see I was right with my assumptions ...
Either ignorance or fanatism ... :-)

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Jan 31, 2012 - 05:04am PT

K&K are not "boso-ashole-arrogant" type climbers.

there' is something childish and naive in saying (repeatedly) something and pretending it to be true and universally accepted by everybody else

we don't care how they and their spiritual guide are when social drinking, we care about their actions and their writings

I pity you.

monaco

climber

marseille (FR) - parma (IT)

Jan 31, 2012 - 05:38am PT

Maestri, though undeniably talented, was either temporarily crazy, or an idiot, or such an egomaniac that he was not quite rational until the end when he saw the light and began removing them.

In my modest opinion I think that you F&*^KING 'MMERICANS should be a little bit more respectful speaking about a person that could be your father, or grand-father, and that had climbed, during his glorious youth, routes that you and your masters would never be able to do with 60s clothes, shoes, ropes...and that NOW is also fighting against cancer.

People do not like to read ''Maestri idiot'' or ''Maestri insanity'' (what a gentleman, Mr. Haley!!!) or ''Maestri via ferrata'' (not true and at least unfair to state...also if it is a ultra-bolted route).

You invoke the respect for the mountain and the wilderness...I agree.
I invoke also respect for people...do you agree???

cheers,
matteo.

p.s.
several of you said to be against Bush and his followers...to be agaist the american imperialism in the world...but, from an european point of view, your affirmations and the acts you are supporting seem not too far...

don't be surprised if people around the world think that americans are arrogant, as only they own the ''real and un-doubtable truth''...

don't be surprised if people know that talibans are really bad...but are not too sad seeing the ''american world sheriffs'' do not control the area...

that is sad to state...but this is true.

The cad

climber

Does it matter, really?!?

Jan 31, 2012 - 05:47am PT

@monaco
You talk about respecting people, but a line of your post is less than respectful for many people here.

Isn't it possible to state one's own arguments without gratuitously offending Americans, Italians, Argentinean or whatever?

monaco

climber

marseille (FR) - parma (IT)

Jan 31, 2012 - 06:13am PT

@ ''the cad''

''F&$^KING 'MMERICANS'' was a ''reaction''...I hope that you know ''irony''...i do not actually consider americans f&$^king people.

you have the right to say your opinions...and I have the right to do not agree...and to judge your actions/statements...

I specify that what I said about Bush/americans/feelings of people around the world is SAD...

but this is the truth...the ''mean feeling'' concerning americans is what I wrote...

I hope that knowing the ''not fear'' idea that people have about you could help you to reflect.

that said, I'm not affirming ''I've the truth!!''...the world, the life, people, are never black or white...totally good or totally bad...and often people, americans in particular, seem to forget this.

this topic is able to collect opinions from all around the world...sometime foreign opinions are not good to ear...but if me and others spend our time for letting you know our opinions is not only for expressing our disappointing about Compressor route chopping (that is easy...''F&$^KING IMPERIALIST 'MMERICANS ;-))))) )...but also because we consider important give you some different point of view, we consider important discus with you...

scio me nihil scire
I know one thing, that I know nothing

SOCRATES...and a good example of italian/roman imperialism...Socrates in Latin ;-))))))))

p.s.

as I stated before...I climb ''by fair means''...no bolt, no bolted belay...in ''my'' alps...

I strongly criticized the euro bolt ''drift''...and personally chopped several bolts on previously unbolted routes...

nevertheless I do not support K&K actions on Cerro Torre...the way they did is, in my opinion, not correct...and in our useless activity the way we do things is far more important than things themselves

The cad

climber

Does it matter, really?!?

Jan 31, 2012 - 06:23am PT

you have the right to say your opinions...and I have the right to do not agree...and to judge your actions/statements...

Thank you for reminding...
LOL

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 31, 2012 - 06:29am PT

@monaco,
I understand that anger makes people blind.
But not all americans support K&K chopping action.

So, I don't see why, because one of them is irrespectful, you have to believe that all of them are.

It's like to say that, because Berlusconi had done to a lot of orgies, also all other italians did.
And both of us know that, unfortunately, this is not true. :-)

monaco

climber

marseille (FR) - parma (IT)

Jan 31, 2012 - 06:45am PT

@enzolino

are my words too 'strong'' and not kind ?
yes, they are.
have american people the right to feel offended by my words?
yes, they have...and also they are right!

why I do that?
I wanted to show how several people around the world (italy, europe, argentine, US!!) feel when ear affirmations like ''Maestri insanity'' or ''fool, idiot, etc...''

the way by which americans are judged around the world is correct?
no, this is often a pre-judgement...
nevertheless this is the (not correct) opinion of a lot of people that is influenced by some kind of ''american unique truth''...

ma porcazzozza, possibile che tocca farlo a me di difendere sta stracazzo di via demmerda che ho sempre detestato...'na fila de spitti!!, perche' questi in media nel cervello c'hanno i bai'!!!

''lamerigani stanno avanti, e noi che siamo dietro di sicuro, per la legge naturale, glielo si puo' butta nerculo'' :)

for our anglosaxon friends...I simply saying to enzolino that is incredible that I'm defending the compressor route, that I always abhorred...but this is another example that life and people are not only black/white...

the last thing is a jazz italian (slang) song...that I do not translate because it is at least not respectful concerning you ;-)))))))))

TwistedCrank

climber

Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom

Jan 31, 2012 - 08:56am PT

Judas!

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Jan 31, 2012 - 08:57am PT

But all in all the low class of many dudes hanging out at the Bridwell camp, was striking for me.

LOL
I don't think Jim would mind attending a Bunga Bunga party there.

yanqui

climber

Balcarce, Argentina

Jan 31, 2012 - 09:54am PT

"Curious to read that the guy who was responsible for adding some 40 bolts to the Compressor route is now up on his horse being righteous. Nice consistency David! seems like you have more than a little growing up to do."

How is he being self-righteous (which is what I assume you mean by saying he is "up on his horse being righteous") ?

He is saying that what K and K did is "destroying what some body else has done and nobody is entitled to destroy it."

How do you judge him as being "righteous" for saying that nobody has the right to destroy what someone else has done?

There may be some debate whether adding dozens of bolts to a route is as destructive as removing them, but I understood this comment to mean that since Lama's team had altered the route by adding bolts, then it could be taken as self-righteous to criticize someone else for altering the route by removing them. While it might be true that Lama did not personally drill the bolts, he did bring along a film team to make a way-rad DVD of his climbing exploits, and therefore I understand it's not so unreasonable to assume he bears (at least some) responsibility for the bolting.

Hope that helps!

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 31, 2012 - 10:02am PT

The Kendedy Kruck Klan (KKK)chopped parts of his route on Torre without asking him, an absolute no go, even if the climb could not hold up to modern standars.

There was absolutely no requirement to ask Maestri for permission to chop that abortion - he lost all of that kind of mutual respect by his actions in both 1959 and 1970 with respect to CT and the compressor.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 31, 2012 - 10:19am PT

Like many climbers in that time?
I can see there is not worse blind than who doesn't want to see ...
Do you think Harding, Robbins, and many others don't deserve respect for their routes?

Jean Gurtorju

climber

land of echoes

Jan 31, 2012 - 10:25am PT

A bullshit repeated a thousand times is still a bullsh#t.

Nothing more.

mika

Big Wall climber

Zurich, switzerland

Jan 31, 2012 - 10:43am PT

If you must do it, do it in good style

I have been multiple times to Patagonia, climbing many peaks in the Fitz and Paine areas. But all in all the low class of many dudes hanging out at the Bridwell camp, was striking for me. The Compressor route was definitely responsible for bringing folk to Patagonia who did not belong there. So that the compressor route does currently not exist any more does not bother me. Its not the matter of what was done, but how it was done. Nothing has been achieved if Kurk and Kennedy climb Torre in a good style but remove another climb in a bad style, it’s not congruent. Certain ethics go beyond the world of climbing and belong to life.

Kennedy & Kruck have been attracted by the compressor route in the most negative way possible, they belong to a Klan of climbers with no respect for history, democracy, locals or Torre. There had been a more creative way to deal with the compressor route, by cleaning it up to be 5.12, A3 or so. Destruction is never a peaceful way. Destruction comes from arrogance, aggression, the belief to be better than others and only leads to war. That’s why the bolt chopping Kennedy & Kruck Klan belongs removed.

Definitely Torre has gained back some of it’s a’lure and that’s what Rolo must like about the action, but it was achieved in a negative way, using bad style and that’s what counts.
Mika

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Jan 31, 2012 - 10:52am PT

Really.

They just have hoods in order to keep warm!

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber

SF, CA

Jan 31, 2012 - 11:02am PT

Stevie Haston has an interesting piece about his perspective on CT, Maestri, bolt chopping and alpinism: http://steviehaston.blogspot.com/2012/01/american-alpine-imperialism-stevie.html

Read the entire page at the link, but here's an excerpt:

Far from thinking the two lads were Imperialist in their attitude, I see them as continuing a fine tradition of tidying up, which is going out of favour by the politically correct pole dancers of today. But to agree we need to define......

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 31, 2012 - 11:36am PT

Yawn, more Euro-wankers talking about all these routes that need chopping without having the balls to do it themselves. Fap fap fap fap.

Funny how just about every top-level alpinist who has chimed in on this, be it trailblazers from that era (Comesana, Dickinson, Messner) or modern standard-bearers (Haston, Ian Parnell, Rolo, Steve House, Jon Walsh, Colin Haley, David Falt, etc.) has come out in favor (or at worst ambivalent) towards the chopping.

Coz is the only top climber who's really mad about this it seems. I'm not counting Schneider because he did a far worse chop job and lied about it so his credibility on this issue is close to zero.

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 31, 2012 - 11:54am PT

@mika: if that standard was applied to every thread on here, nothing would get past a few pages.

@coz: I'm a nobody climber, we've never met but I know your name because of all the badass stuff you've done I've read about in books and magazines. Speaking of which, f*#k those rangers who took your drill and weed on top of Muir Wall.

As far as the names I mentioned, that's all information I've gathered from reading the various online threads, as well as people's blogs and Facebook/Twitter feeds. You can also add Kelly Cordes and Cedar Wright to the pro-chop list. What's also interesting is to read the discussions on this issue on the British climbing sites. Some of the guys there make the pro-chopping folks here seem downright modest in terms of what they are okay with! (for instance, one British old-timer stated that removal of all the bolts by any means or method of ascent was perfectly justifiable).

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Jan 31, 2012 - 11:56am PT

Fortunately the lines drawn here are not geographic but cultural.

There are many climbs that some presume have too many bolts.

But the Torre is unique in that they were installed by an alpine Fitzcaraldo.

It just doesn't fit the standard paradigm.

But like I said before, there's not much law out on the frontier. Things get done.

Some route erasure attempts become the stuff of "major" controversy but, truthfully, amount to a tempest in a teacup.

Some avenging Italians could go chop some of those routes, but if they just abide nature will do it for them.

WBraun

climber

Jan 31, 2012 - 12:00pm PT

Cesare Maestri didn't care when he went crazy on the Cerro Torre.

K&K is the karmic reaction to Cesare Maestri.

Spinning wheels got go round .....

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 31, 2012 - 12:01pm PT

Why don't we all just sleep on this awhile?

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 31, 2012 - 12:12pm PT

"SS, regret's his actions and took notice for such, he didn't have to come clean, but he did, he is one of the greatest climber of all times who always stayed on the down low, probably because he is a modest man.

Give the guy a break!"

I actually respect what Steve did in coming clean a lot, it takes a bunch of guts to own up to something like that. My point was more that it seems a bit beyond the pale for one of the standard-bearers for the anti-chopping case in this situation to be someone who executed a chop-job on a less bolted route, by jumaring fixed ropes, crapping on the chopped ropes, and lying about it. You'd think after an episode like that, and whatever catharsis was obtained by finally spilling the beans, one would lay low on these sorts of issues.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 31, 2012 - 12:16pm PT

Coming clean? Does that mean he did his paperwork in triplicate? :)

monaco

climber

marseille (FR) - parma (IT)

Jan 31, 2012 - 12:17pm PT

@WBraun

as I wrote before...Maestri did NOT go crazy on Cerro Torre.
be more respectful concerning someone that could be your father or grand-father...and that climbed several routes that you and your heroes would never be able to climb with the shoes, clothes, materials of the 60s

was the CR what I consider a good route?
no, it wasn't

was Maestri insane or crazy?
No! respect an old and glorious man that is fighting against cancer...homo minor!

WBraun

climber

Jan 31, 2012 - 12:38pm PT

monaco

There's no disrespect.

I didn't say Maestri is crazy. I said when he went back with that compressor he went crazy for that action.

There's a difference.

We've all done crazy things in our lives at one point or other.

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Jan 31, 2012 - 12:39pm PT

A salient point that is raised from Haston's blog post (although he never mentions it specifically) is that a lot of the people who are discussing this, and particularly many who are objecting to the bolt-chopping (although certainly not all), are coming into the issue with a big-wall rock climbing perspective/background, be it from the Dolomites, Yosemite, or wherever (which also partly explains why there have been so many apples-to-oranges comparisons with places like El Cap, Half Dome, and The Chief). Many of the people supporting the action (although again not all) come from the "fast-and-light alpinism" perspective/background, where excessive drilling/bolting is completely alien to what they consider acceptable. For a person like Steve House or Rolo, for instance, the question isn't "400 bolts on Cerro Torre vs. 100 bolts on the Nose", it's "400 bolts on Cerro Torre versus the single-digit number (possibly zero) I find acceptable".

monaco

climber

marseille (FR) - parma (IT)

Jan 31, 2012 - 12:41pm PT

KKK did not climb ''by fair means''.
using 5 intermediate bolts and several bolted belays is NOT ''by fair means''

the brits know this point very well...and if they not clearly admit that they are simply loosing their bold ethics in order to follow folks

in such a useless activity as alpinism, that is a mere game (...sorry Mr. hamingway )...the rules of the game are really important.

do not exist something that is ''fair enough''...bolts are unfair...KKK climbed ''by unfair means'' and assumed they are the correct people to set the level (how many bolts/spits use and leave).
quite arrogant in my opinion.

do you want to minimize the Maestri (bad) effort?
do better...on virgin terrain (without any boly to chop AFTER anything goes wrong..)...

messner ''imposed'' is bold ethics in dolomites at the end of the 60s not erasing what his predecessors did...but climbing better routes....not doing acts of vandalism

show the correct way with positive actions...not by destroying the past and using unfair words for an old glorious climber (and a man!)

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 31, 2012 - 12:47pm PT

Monaco, they did climb a better route. They did climb virgin terrain.
They did it in a blisteringly fast 13 hours. That is bad ass.
They did leave bolts for belays and raps. But that is the standard descent route so what is the big deal.

monaco

climber

marseille (FR) - parma (IT)

Jan 31, 2012 - 12:55pm PT

@philo

they did use 5 spits plus some spit belay...isn't it?
stop...this is not ''by fair means''

I've just said that...the messner example is clear.
do better without destroying.
do better far away others' routes
do better far away a ''ferrata'' that can used if something goes wrong

what they did is a good thing from a climbing point of view...not ''by fair menas'', but nevertheless impressive.
and after that a bad thing from a human point of view.

you can argue that Maestri did bad things from a human and climbing point of view...that's true.

nevertheless what KKK did is bad.

and two bad things do not means a good thing...they are bad. stop.

cheers,
matteo.

gimmeslack

Trad climber

Jan 31, 2012 - 01:21pm PT

Can I ask you a specific question? How do you explain that there are no bolts on or above the Col of Conquest?
Listen very carefully: When we attacked it in 1959, the north face of Cerro Torre was a solid mass of snow and ice. We went up it. Egger was the greatest ice climber in the world. We took advantage of this because the weather had been bad for three weeks and Cerro Torre was a sheet of ice. . . .

[Maestri reels off a string of obscenities.] But I don't give a [expletive] about all this. It has already been covered, goddamn it to hell! You can't understand.

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/0604/whats_new/cesare-maestri.html

Wouldn't it be sumthin' if they really HAD done the FA? Can't help but wonder. If he had, and then suffered all the subsequent crap, I could see why he would go back with a compressor, just out of spite...

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 31, 2012 - 01:33pm PT

From the same article linked above.

How do you respond to the climbers who, last fall, ascended Cerro Torre and now question the validity of your climb?
You mean Ermanno Salvaterra? I didn't take legal action against him for libel because I didn't want to damage mountaineering. Let me clarify: I fight on principle. If they don't believe me, if they question my climb, then I question the whole of mountaineering.

Salvaterra says he didn't find any bolts or traces of your passage above the Col of Conquest.
They are conducting a campaign against me in the press, so now I will sue them for libel and slander. Because I am tired, I have had it up to here, and I am fed up. They ruined my life.

Who ruined who's life?

I have heard that Maestri is always eager to sue in court any one who disputes him.
Good luck on suing Salvaterra and Garribotti.

Are some of you Italian climbers afraid you might get sued if you don't stick to the party line?

bmacd

Mountain climber

100% Canadian

Jan 31, 2012 - 01:38pm PT

In your book, do you write about this line of pitons?
CM: I don't have to explain anything; I don't owe anything to anyone. They can invent what they want—pitons, no pitons, I couldn't care less. What I did was the most important endeavor in the world. I did it single-handedly. But this doesn't mean that I . . . that I reached the top, do you understand? Do I make myself clear?

Guilty as charged

TYeary

Social climber

State of decay

Jan 31, 2012 - 01:40pm PT

Don't know quite what to think of all this yet. I have some mixed feelings about the chopping of these bolts, yet I must admit, I do lean toward some ambivalence in this specific case. My sense of what is "right" has been tempered by Maestri’s willingness to step so far outside the accepted practices of the time, in order to achieve victory and vindication. It may be argued what Kruk and Kennedy have done is little different, except I would add that they were in no small way restoring the mountain to it's rightful status: that this was the "lesser of the two evils". “Who committed the act of violence against Cerro Torre? Maestri, by installing the bolts, or us, by removing them?” This quote says it all, and the pundits have to find the greater good. I sincerely hope that Kruk and Kennedy have the support and requisite strength to live in balance and comfort with their decision to chop the "bolts of shame." Greg Crouch wrote " I hope this isn’t what they’re remembered for.” Me too. For just as Maestri's detractors pushed him to an outrageous and ego driven adventure to avenge his honor, I worry that these two youngsters might suffer a similar fate.
TY

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 31, 2012 - 01:40pm PT

That sounds like he is claiming he soloed the route.
Won't his team mates be so proud?

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Jan 31, 2012 - 01:52pm PT

That sounds like he is claiming he soloed the route. Won't his team mates be so proud?

On the Compressor route the only one who led was Maestri. Perhaps this is what he was meaning. He reached what he considered the summit, ie the top of the rock, but not of the mushroom of ice.

The cad

climber

Does it matter, really?!?

Jan 31, 2012 - 01:55pm PT

Come on, the point is NOT whether Maestri reached or not the summit in '59.
This has nothing to do with chopping the CR.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 31, 2012 - 02:02pm PT

Really? Good! This was become tiresome.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Jan 31, 2012 - 02:02pm PT

He did all the leading?

(The really impressive thing was the hauling job)

bmacd

Mountain climber

100% Canadian

Jan 31, 2012 - 02:05pm PT

Oh really, so why did CM bother to enlist the greatest ice climber in the world if he is going to lead every pitch ?

CM: Listen very carefully: When we attacked it in 1959, the north face of Cerro Torre was a solid mass of snow and ice. We went up it. Egger was the greatest ice climber in the world. We took advantage of this because the weather had been bad for three weeks and Cerro Torre was a sheet of ice. . . .

Nothing anyone supporting CM says adds up to make any sense. Including anything CM himself says as well. Is this why CM is afraid to speak now, because he can't keep track of the lies he has told already ? Why is it so attractive to defend a person of this nature, to so many ? Another case of like attracts like ...

Anyone in this thread whom has posted a lie today, please raise your hand.

The cad

climber

Does it matter, really?!?

Jan 31, 2012 - 02:27pm PT

Hey, wake up!

We're NOT talking about the '59 route.
We're talking about the Compressor Route.

The point is NOT whether supporting or not Maestri.
The point is about supporting or not the chopping of an established, yet controversial, route.

Period.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Jan 31, 2012 - 02:55pm PT

The point is there is no point. No consensus.

The cad

climber

Does it matter, really?!?

Jan 31, 2012 - 02:57pm PT

That's for sure :)

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 31, 2012 - 03:18pm PT

Well boys and girls it's been real and it's been fun. It just hasn't been real fun.

So cheers to all the climbers of the world.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 31, 2012 - 03:37pm PT

Yeah this guy also has style.
And the same opinion of the Yank Down of the Bolt Route.

Hey, who is that dude with Jona anyway?

rampik

Social climber

the alps

Jan 31, 2012 - 03:58pm PT

Philo your sponsor is Atlas, like Maestri... !
_

Atlas Copco Italia S.p.A.: la nostra storia (history)

Dal 1961 al 1975

* 1965 L' intera organizzazione della sede e della filiale di Milano si trasferisce nel nuovo complesso di Cinisello Balsamo.
* 1967-69 Inizia la collaborazione con la FIAT per la fornitura di utensili pneumatici e compressori per le fabbriche torinesi. Nello stabilimento automobilistico di Togliattigrad i tecnici dell' Atlas Copco Italia guidano il montaggio delle centrali di compressione.

* 1970 Cesare Maestri conquista la vetta del Cerro Torre, in Patagonia, con l'aiuto di una "Vespa" e di un compressore FE dell' Atlas Copco. **

**
AC Italy history

* 1974 Avviene l' introduzione della perforazione idraulica.
* 1975 Avviene l' introduzione dei compressori rotativi a vite di media capacità, sia mobili (XA) che stazionari (GA). Atlas Copco Italia, con il "Jumbo Fréjus", entra in galleria, per lo scavo della metà italiana del medesimo traforo. Dalla collaborazione con le università svedesi nasce il "Limno", un sistema che permette di ossigenare i laghi inquinati, utilizzato anche in Italia nel lago di Caldonazzo, in Trentino.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 31, 2012 - 04:05pm PT

I never thought about that but it is funny.
No, actually it is just a neck gaiter covering a cervical collar that I was wearing after a 4 vertibrae fusion surgery.
All I have left is style. lol

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber

San Francisco

Jan 31, 2012 - 04:26pm PT

Philo, why do you all take a photo with the same girl?

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 31, 2012 - 04:39pm PT

What can I say, she is the one getting the pictures. She has taste and style.

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber

San Francisco

Jan 31, 2012 - 05:16pm PT

Seriously though, is that a relative or a friend of yours?

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 31, 2012 - 05:19pm PT

She is my friend yes.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 31, 2012 - 05:21pm PT

You guys are pigs. lol :)

Johnny K.

climber

Jan 31, 2012 - 05:43pm PT

hahaahaaa

Gene

climber

Jan 31, 2012 - 05:54pm PT

This thread is done.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 31, 2012 - 05:55pm PT

Actually Fatz you got that backwards. Not an uncommon state for you.
She met Messner at the OR show in Salt Lake after the Ouray Ice Fest.

But cast no aspersions please gentlemen and you too Fatz, she is a really lovely person not some strumpet to slander. Not to mention she can outclimb the frothing lie spewer without breaking a glisten

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber

San Francisco

Jan 31, 2012 - 06:33pm PT

Not to mention she can outclimb the frothing lie spewer without breaking a glisten

She must have a ST account I hope.

philo hijacked the thread with 2 photos of a blonde! Well done!

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 31, 2012 - 06:44pm PT

Your welcome. Mission Accomplished!

Tahoe climber

climber

Davis these days

Jan 31, 2012 - 06:46pm PT

I still think it's interesting that the Italians (and other anti-chop posters) don't offer a peep about their opinions of removing the bolts in the context of Maestri starting the job himself.
He removed some of the bolts himself, while on the way down from his second near ascent, did he not?
In the absence of any statement from him thus far, I find his action very telling - practically an open invitation to anyone to finish the job, and representing a coming back to sanity after a brief sojourn. I think he realized that it was a mess and a mistake, and began trying to fix it, but didn't have the time, energy or motivation to fix it entirely.

JUST LIKE K&K.

But you who are so mad at K&K for removing his bolts, due to their "disrespect." Does this change your opinion?
Aren't you just SO MAD at Maestri for preemptively "removing bits of history?"

:-))))

TC

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 31, 2012 - 06:51pm PT

Oh crap here we go again.
Fuzzy thinking.
:-)

FeelioBabar

Trad climber

One drink ahead of my past.

Jan 31, 2012 - 06:52pm PT

Oh Jesus....That blonde in question, is more kicked in than a Fallujah front door.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 31, 2012 - 06:56pm PT

Classless.

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Jan 31, 2012 - 06:58pm PT

Werner wrote

Cesare Maestri didn't care when he went crazy on the Cerro Torre.

K&K is the karmic reaction to Cesare Maestri.

Spinning wheels got go round .....

Werner's right, this is a karma thing.

Just like the colonialism of the past brought the seeds of wars in Vietnam and the Middle East, none of it any good.

Two wrongs (the compressor route and the chopping) not adding up to anything right.

Maestri was pissed at not being believed the first time and so went up with some tweak in his heart and a compressor. The energy of the tweak returns with the chop, which is also tweaked.

Egos bring distortion and destruction. Iconic mountains like Torre and Everest attract the actions of egos.

Ironically, the compressor was sort of a visionary idea, ahead of it's time and now a lot of climbing is established with power drills, like it or not. The actions of visionaries are sometimes vindicated by time, as once hang-dogging was shunned but now embraced, and sometimes repudiated. In this case..... both

Peace

Karl

FeelioBabar

Trad climber

One drink ahead of my past.

Jan 31, 2012 - 06:58pm PT

And wasn't the compressor removed once, and then the gov. ordered it returned to it's original place?

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber

Joshua Tree

Jan 31, 2012 - 07:03pm PT

Photos by Blitzo, courtesy of MountainProject.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Jan 31, 2012 - 07:05pm PT

Blitzo is such a fine photographer!

Speaking of fine photographs, has anyone noticed the amazing cloud formations on Cerro Torre in the back of ALPINIST 37? Great analogue for the divergent opinions present in this thread.

Hey, now if I travel to the Dolomites am I going to get beat up?

Johnny K.

climber

Jan 31, 2012 - 11:14pm PT

Piton Ron

Anyway Bird might have considered Maestri a pussy but Jim's views have morphed substantially over the years to say the least.
It would be great if he weighed in now.

Even though he hated the act, the route itself was a crowning achievement for a guy previously known as head kahuna of C4.

And what of the chopping now?

I see.That would be great if we could hear what Bridwell has to say about the current subject.

Philo hahaa Awesome post =D

Todd Eastman

climber

Bellingham, WA

Feb 1, 2012 - 12:07am PT

Should we dis Hillary next...

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Feb 1, 2012 - 02:24am PT

Are you joking Gaslover or blind as a bat?

The cad

climber

Does it matter, really?!?

Feb 1, 2012 - 02:30am PT

Tahoe climber wrote:
I still think it's interesting that the Italians (and other anti-chop posters) don't offer a peep about their opinions of removing the bolts in the context of Maestri starting the job himself.
He removed some of the bolts himself, while on the way down from his second near ascent, did he not?
In the absence of any statement from him thus far, I find his action very telling - practically an open invitation to anyone to finish the job, and representing a coming back to sanity after a brief sojourn. I think he realized that it was a mess and a mistake, and began trying to fix it, but didn't have the time, energy or motivation to fix it entirely.

Come on, this issue has already been discussed at least one hundred times.

From Alpinist.com:

Now, instead of letting his [Maestri's] partners join him at the high point, he [Maestri] had a sudden impulse. "[A] devilish plan comes into my mind: I'll take out all the bolts and leave the climb as clean as we found it. I'll break them all, so that whoever tries to repeat our route won't even be able to benefit from the holes we've drilled." On rappel, Maestri chopped some twenty of his bolts; he disabled the compressor, and "toss[ed] down the face anything that might be helpful to others: pitons, carabiners, ropes."

Maestri's chopping of his own route was yet another "phuk u" to the climbing community who didn't believe to his '59 ascent.
How many times shall we repeat this?
Is it so hard to get it?

What if Maestri had chopped the whole route?
Very simple: we wouldn't be here endlessly ranting.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Feb 1, 2012 - 02:33am PT

He sounds like a habitual litterbug.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 1, 2012 - 04:38am PT

Only Kruk is allowed ... he is the foreigner ... but I'm sure there are plenty of other mountain talebans who would volunteer to join him!!!

:-)))

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 1, 2012 - 04:52am PT

On 16 January 2012, American Hayden Kennedy and Canadian Jason Kruk made a self-defined "fair-means"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerro_Torre
LOL
Just a question ... how many "self-defined" definitions of "fair means" exist?

I would list some reference "fair means" styles.
Free solo: climbing with no rope and no protections.
Freeclimbing: using protection just for security and not for progression.
Alpine Style: climbing a mountain or a route in one push without using fixed ropes.
Boltless: climbing a route without using the bolts, neither for protection or for progression.

Further suggestions?
Should we add the KKK definition?
KKK: Fair means does not mean no bolts. Reasonable use of bolts has been a long-accepted practice in this mountain range.

mika

Big Wall climber

Zurich, switzerland

Feb 1, 2012 - 05:16am PT

If any person has the right to talk about fair means on Torre it is David Lama with his fantastic free climb. After this action the climb of the KKK became just another aid climb of Torre.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 1, 2012 - 05:22am PT

is it certified(1) that he didn't put his pinkies in the bolt holes?

(1) it seems that on this particular mountain lack of contrary evidence is not enough to trust alpinist's word as the '59 "presumed" ascent testmony

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 1, 2012 - 05:26am PT

If any person has the right to talk about fair means on Torre it is David Lama with his fantastic free climb. After this action the climb of the KKK became just another aid climb of Torre.

I absolutely agree ... and it's a pity that his achievement was overshadowed by the KKK action ...
Lama accomplishment is amazing ...

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Feb 1, 2012 - 05:44am PT

I absolutely agree ... and it's a pity that his achievement was overshadowed by the KKK action ...Lama accomplishment is amazing ...

Lama's achievement, like Maestri, is overshadowed only by his own previous [bad] choices on the route.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 1, 2012 - 06:50am PT

Lama's achievement, like Maestri, is overshadowed only by his own previous [bad] choices on the route.

Well ... at least Lama accepted criticism
http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web10x/newswire-lama-speaks-compressor

I have without a doubt accepted the consequences from my critics and agreed with Red Bull that for the next attempt on this project other tactics will be used, and no additional bolts will be placed for the production. This decision will have consequences on the quality of the production, but I am happy that Red Bull is with me in this resolution. If it turns out that the film project is no longer possible, and the production abandoned, I will not change my plan—to attempt to free Cerro Torre

accordingly adjusted his choice and accomplished his outstanding goal.
I hope KKK would do the same ...

nopantsben

climber

Feb 1, 2012 - 07:40am PT

this entire thread just puts climbing and its community into a bad light.
americans vs. italians/swiss is what it looks like here . of course that's not even the case, but the dumb arguing is shameful.

it's sad that some climber compares the bolts on the the Torre to the Berlin Wall, and it even gets rewritten by KK and then R&I and Alpinst cite that bullsh#t. It makes climbers look like stupid idiots!

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 1, 2012 - 08:23am PT

Well ... if you look at any human issue from the perspective of eternity and the infinity of the universe, everything would look like silly ...

Although alpinism is a niche activity, nevertheless is our game. And we are the players. And in this game we play to set up rules, to fight for them, to establish the value of achievement, to break new frontiers, etc ...
So, after all is just a game ... and I'm sure that with many people of the forum - except philo (he is too busy with blonde girls) - we would peacefully laugh and talk in front of a drink ...

By the way ... Italians and Swiss are definetively better than americans ... :-)

nopantsben

climber

Feb 1, 2012 - 08:37am PT

you may be right enzolino, but the comparison is a digrace, and the same can be said about the primitive patriotism spewed over some comments.
http://nopantsclimbing.blogspot.com/2012/02/at-after-party.html

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Feb 1, 2012 - 08:40am PT

Shut up. Americans are great. Soon we will pioneer unmanned ascents, climbing with remote control drones. :-0

Different climbers have different reasons for enjoying their mountain experience. It would be worth debating how much rights the elite have to prune the peaks so the "Unworthy" are denied.

PEace

Karl

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 1, 2012 - 08:51am PT

Karl Baba wrote:

Americans are great

... choppers.

Well said Baba!!!

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Feb 1, 2012 - 09:26am PT

...accordingly adjusted his choice and accomplished his outstanding goal.

Good on him and you don't hear him crying over the crime of his bolts being chopped.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 1, 2012 - 09:27am PT

this is a (quick and bad) translation of an article by Mario Conti (first undisputed ascent of Cerro Torre) appeared today:

Certainly I want to congratulate for the ascent of Kennedy and Kruk and even more to David Lama for free. On removal of Maestri's bolts I absolutely disagree.
A route opened in 1970, when El Chalten not even existed and Patagonia was not accessible as it is today, I certainly did not approve the methods used then and I do not approve them either today, still this route deserves respect for its historical value. This route is in fact, along with controversy and the pages of literature inspired by it, a piece of history, history consists of beautiful and ugly things, nevetheless those things are representative of those years of mountaineering.
Maestri put bolts in 1970, but others did the same, just think of bolts placed by Lama with subsequent removal by Garibotti. We state clearly that among the climbers of Cerro Torre no one has ever be consistent. Maestri's bolts and belay anchors have been used by everybody. The certainty of a fast-descent has helped many, including some famous openers, to try until the last. Others have used the last pitches to complete the new lines. I would point out that the only independent lines that get to the top are Maestri's with Bridwell ending and ours.
For sure now the possibility of climbing Cerro Torre is closed to many.
Certainly in the Alps these routes symbol of an outdated Mountaineering style have been considered and treated differently. Maestri's and other routes, such as in Minussi Lavaredo, were free climbed, but no one has ever assumed the right to erase the historical value by removing the original pitons.
Obviously for Cerro Torre is not so, the charm of being involved in a controversy with the big and unknown passionate more than ascents themselves, and so Kennedy and Kruk will be remembered not because of their beautiful ascent, but again because of Maestri and the controversy over his decision to more than forty years ago. In this sense, they should at least thank him.

Mario Conti

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Feb 1, 2012 - 09:30am PT

It is almost amusing to see the miscommunications caused not only by language difficulties (and my hat is off to our euro posters for making a significant effort) but also the cultural divide.
For indeed, the Taco has its own culture.

nopantsben

climber

Feb 1, 2012 - 09:39am PT

yes sometimes the taco come across like a garibotti-fanclub, Ron.
from Alpinist, in a comment by "Topher":

Constable Garibotti just sent me an email asking for my support in the chopping of Maestri's bolts. A little late, don't you think?

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha...

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 1, 2012 - 10:03am PT

Different climbers have different reasons for enjoying their mountain experience. It would be worth debating how much rights the elite have to prune the peaks so the "Unworthy" are denied.

ty Baba I appreciate a lot.

as you can see, Piton, the cultural divide is not between sides of atlantic than it is between initiated and uninitiated to some kind of "holy rock" religion

TwistedCrank

climber

Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom

Feb 1, 2012 - 10:23am PT

In the grand history of the alpine, these events are merely a beetle on the back of a sarcred cow.

Jean Gurtorju

climber

land of echoes

Feb 1, 2012 - 10:36am PT

Nice article by Jean-Pierre Banville who phoned directly to Maestri to ask for his opinion.

http://www.kairn.com/article.html?id=2370

Deux bouteilles d’aspirine. Oui, deux…

Ça m’a pris deux bouteilles d’aspirine, cette semaine, pour digérer toutes les inepties lues sur les forums anglo-américains et français à propos du Cerro Torre et de la Voie du Compresseur.

Passe encore que certains n’apprécient pas ma prose. Passe encore que certains ne saisissent pas mon argumentaire. Mais de là à ne pas saisir le fond de l’histoire, à ne pas être capable de voir les tenants et aboutissants de l’affaire, à ne pas apprécier la dérive qu’une telle action peut provoquer… et bien je remercie Bayer de l’aide apportée par leur produit vedette!

Résumons : deux grimpeurs ont escaladé le Cerro Torre ‘’ by fair means’’ mais en utilisant – selon leur dire – deux ou cinq ancrages déjà en place. Qui peut jurer, ici, que ce n’est que cinq ancrages et non pas dix ou vingt ou trente? Il n’y a que leur parole qui en fait foi… c’est l’usage en alpinisme.

Ces deux grimpeurs avaient l’intention de déboulonner la voie du Compresseur avant leur départ. Et ils ont conservé les ancrages ce qui est étrange pour des artefacts qui n’ont pour eux aucune valeur. Cette action fut faite en dépit d’un consensus chez les grimpeurs et les locaux argentins. Je ne crois pas qu’on accepterait, en France, que des Argentins décident de ce qui s’équipe ou se déséquipe dans le pays…

Certaines personnes, des alpinistes célèbres et d’autres qui le sont moins, ont déclaré que la Voie du Compresseur n’était pas historique et que, de ce fait, les ancrages ne sont que des déchets. Le nettoyage est un réalignement visant à redonner à la montagne sa pureté d’antan. Pourquoi ces alpinistes n’ont pas fait eux-mêmes le ménage bien avant reste un mystère. Pourquoi applaudir maintenant au lieu d’agir il y a dix ans?

Moi, les montagnes, je n’en fais pas une religion. Ce sont d’intéressants blocs de roche et de glace qu’il peut être plaisant de grimper. La beauté d’une montagne et sa pureté ne sont que des élucubrations occidentales et je considère que le Cerro Torre est aussi ‘’beau’’ que le Crapaud de Mer, un tas de caillou de 10 mètres grimpable à marée basse. Je suis un sceptique et un athée.

La Voie du Compresseur a été grimpée en 1970, l’époque des Directissimes, l’époque de la fin de l’alpinisme, l’époque des grosses expéditions nationales, l’époque où l’on considérait encore que certaines parois ne pouvaient être grimpées. Ou elles l’étaient à grand renfort de moyens, en artificiel, et c’était considéré ‘’by fair means’’.

La Voie du Compresseur est une voie historique. Elle a fait couler beaucoup d’encre depuis 1970 et je ne connais pas beaucoup de lignes qui ont justifié un livre ou deux par Messner, un film culte, des articles dans les journaux nationaux, des mentions dans tous les livres sur l’alpinisme, quarante ans de polémique… bref, clamer haut et fort que ce n’est pas une voie historique, c’est mentir pour la galerie.

Encore plus, la Voie du Compresseur, de par sa notoriété, a généré quantité de vocations alpines et nombre de grimpeurs connus l’ont gravie sans songer à la déséquiper. Et nombre d’inconnus auraient bien aimé la faire un jour. Cela est maintenant impossible pour cause de pureté. Cette voie était plus qu’une simple échelle de points fixes : en fait, on parle de 1200 mètres d’un rocher à faire rêver qui restera maintenant le fief d’une élite sponsorisée.

Si elle avait été déséquipée deux ans, cinq ans après sa création… mais non… aucun grimpeur ‘’célèbre’’ n’a accepté cette mission malgré les critiques. Maestri lui-même voulait couper les ancrages à la descente mais le mauvais temps et ses compagnons l’en ont dissuadé. C’était sa ligne et il était dans son droit.

La Voie du Compresseur a maintenant 42 ans …. Et elle n’est plus qu’un rêve que plusieurs se chargeront de nous faire oublier.

Je suis réputé et détesté dans mon patelin pour avoir déséquipé un site entier. Disons 75 voies en deux jours. Or ces voies étaient les miennes, des voies dont j’avais payé en entier tout le matériel à partir d’un salaire de misère et que j’avais équipées en un temps record. Je sais donc bien de quoi je parle!

Ce qui m’a donné l’idée de demander à celui qui a équipé la Voie du Compresseur ce qu’il en pense. J’ai donc téléphoné à Cesare Maestri!!!

Oui… j’ai contacté Maestri. En cela, j’ai fait preuve de plus de cœur que les conquérants de l’inutile qui ont liquidé la Maestri/Claus/Alimonta. Car c’est le nom officiel de la Voie du Compresseur, vous le saviez?

Je vous épargne les civilités d’usage :

"Je tiens à vous rappeler que, ces dernières années, j'ai décidé de ne plus parler du Cerro Torre.

Les raisons qui m'ont conduit à prendre cette décision sont doubles : il y a la controverse soulevée par ceux qui veulent m’humilier et détruire la merveilleuse histoire de l'alpinisme, mais essentiellement je sais qu’en reprenant la polémique, je jette de l'essence sur le feu et je me fais complice de leur sale jeu.

En ce qui concerne la "Voie du Compresseur" (que je préfère appeler la «Maestri-Claus-Alimonta" sur l'arête Sud-Est), je peux dire que je considère que c’est une voie incroyable que nous avons affronté pour rendre encore plus évidente la déconfiture de ceux qui ont été forcés de battre en retraite après avoir été stoppés à quelques centaines de mètres du sommet, des grimpeurs considérés comme les meilleurs au monde, incapables d’aller au sommet et dont l’échec signifiait naturellement que j'avais menti en 1959 quand j'ai déclaré à avoir fait le sommet avec Toni Egger.

La vérité que je voulais prouver sur l’arête sud-est est la suivante:

Il n’y a pas de montagnes impossibles à gravir mais seulement des grimpeurs incapables de le faire.

De plus, au fil des ans, je suis encore plus convaincu que mettre en doute la parole d'un grimpeur signifie mettre en doute l'histoire entière de de l’alpinisme depuis Balmat.

Si je pouvais avoir une "baguette magique", je voudrais effacer le Cerro Torre de ma vie."

Ceci est une traduction libre mais respectueuse du message original. Et j’espère bien avoir un jour la chance de rencontrer Cesare Maestri dont la feuille de route m’impressionne beaucoup plus que celle de la cordée canado-américaine qui a déboulonné la Maestri/Claus/Alimonta.

Je ne suis pas un groupie. Je ne vénère personne. Mais nous sommes tous des nains juchés sur les épaules de géants et, si l’on tue les géants, il ne reste que des nains. On ne s’agrandit pas à détruire l’œuvre d’autrui après tout ce temps même si elle est discutable selon les normes de notre époque. Réécrire l’histoire et jeter aux ordures le patrimoine n’est pas digne de la tradition de l’Alpinisme. Un mensonge potentiel, un suréquipement, valide-il une destruction après un demi-siècle? Ce n’est pas l’esprit de la Montagne.

C’est un dangereux précédent qui ouvre la porte à toutes les dérives et à tous les intégristes de la pureté originelle.

Quand la cordée canado-américaine aura le palmarès partiel ci-dessous (réalisé, bien entendu, avec l’équipement de l’époque), je pourrai considérer une révision de mon jugement. Ceci tiré de Wikipedia en italien mais vous comprendrez sans doute le terme ‘’solitaria’’ :

Le sue prime imprese di rilievo risalgono al 1951, quando salì in solitaria la via Detassis-Giordani al Croz dell'Altissimo, e per primo effettuò la discesa in solitaria dalla Paganella. Nel 1952 diventa guida alpina. Da allora si susseguirono numerose imprese, principalmente sulle Dolomiti; tra queste ricordiamo:

la via Dibona al Croz dell'Altissimo (1952)

la via Comici al Salame del Sassolungo (1952)

la via Solleder in Civetta (1952)

la via delle Guide sul Crozzon di Brenta (1953)

la via Trento (Detassis) alla Brenta alta (1953)

la via Soldà al Pilastro sud della Marmolada di Penia (1953)

la traversata dalla Cima d'Ambièz alla Bocca del Tuckett concatenando in solitaria 16 cime della catena centrale in meno di 24 ore (1954)

la via Vinatzer al Sass de Luesa (1955)

la via Oppio al Croz dell'Altissimo (1955)

la via delle Guide al Crozzon di Brenta in discesa (1956)

lo spigolo nord del Cimon della Pala in prima solitaria invernale (1956)

la via Micheluzzi al Piz Ciavazes (1956)

la via Solleder al Sass Maor (in discesa), la via Buhl e la via Maestri - Baldessari (in discesa) alla Roda di Vael, le nuove vie aperte tra il 1964 ed il 1966 in Brenta su Cima Grostè, Cima Campiglio, Cima Massari.

Tutte queste imprese furono realizzate in solitaria.

J’ai bien besoin de deux aspirines ….

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Feb 1, 2012 - 10:47am PT

Google translate:

Two bottles of aspirin. Yes, two ...

It took me two bottles of aspirin, this week to digest all the nonsense on the forums read Anglo-American and French about the Cerro Torre and the Way of the compressor.

Passes though some do not like my prose. Passes though some do not understand my argument. But to not understand the whole story, not to be able to see the ins and outs of the case, not to appreciate the drift that such action may cause ... and I thank Bayer the assistance of their flagship product!

To sum up: two climbers have climbed Cerro Torre''''by fair means but using - as they say - two or five anchors in place. Who can swear here that only five anchors, not ten or twenty or thirty? It is only their word that proves it ... use in mountaineering.

Both climbers intended to debunk the path of Compressor prior to departure. And they kept the anchor which is strange for artifacts that have no value for them. This action was made despite a consensus among local climbers and Argentina. I do not think you would agree, in France, as Argentines decide what equips or unequip the country ...

Some people, famous climbers and others who are less so, said the compressor was not the road history and, thereby, anchors are just a waste. Cleaning is a realignment to restore its purity in the mountains of yesteryear. Why are these climbers did not clean themselves well before remains a mystery. Why cheer now instead of doing ten years ago?

Me, the mountains, I am not a religion. It is interesting blocks of rock and ice that can be fun to climb. The beauty of a mountain and purity are only Western fantasies and I consider that the Cerro Torre is''good''Toad the Sea, a lot of rock climbing walls 10 meters at low tide. I am a skeptic and an atheist.

The Way of the compressor has been increased in 1970, the era of Directissimes, the time of the end of mountaineering, the era of big domestic shipments, when it was considered that some walls still could not be climbs. Or they were with a lot of ways in artificial, and it was considered''by fair means.''

The Way of the compressor is a historic road. She was much written since 1970 and I do not know a lot of lines that justified a book or two by Messner, a cult film, articles in national newspapers, all references in books on mountaineering, Forty years of controversy ... in short, loud and clear that this is not a historical path is lying to the gallery.

Even more, the Way of the compressor, because of its reputation, has generated much vocations and many Alpine climbers known to have climbed unequip it without thinking. Number of unknowns and would have liked to do it one day. It is now impossible because of purity. This way was more than just a scale of fixed points: in fact, talking about 1200 meters of rock to dream that now remain the stronghold of an elite sponsored.

Déséquipée if it had been two years, five years after its creation ... but no ... no climber''Celebration''has accepted this mission despite the criticism. Darling himself wanted to cut the anchors on the way down but bad weather and his companions have dissuaded. It was his line and he was within his rights.

The Way of the compressor is now 42 years .... And it is no longer a dream that many will take care of us forget.

I have known and hated in my hometown unequipped for an entire site. Say 75 tracks in two days. But these tracks were mine, I had channels and pay in full all the material from a pittance and had equipped in record time. I know so well what I mean!

What gave me the idea to ask the person who has equipped the way of what he thinks compressor. So I phoned Cesare Maestri!

Yes ... I contacted Maestri. In this, I showed more heart than the conquerors of the useless who liquidated the Maestri / Claus / Alimonte. For it is the official name of the Way of the compressor, you know?

I'll spare you the courtesies:

"I want to remind you that in recent years, I decided not to speak of Cerro Torre.

The reasons that led me to this decision are twofold: there is the controversy over those who want to humiliate and destroy the wonderful history of mountaineering, but basically I know that taking up the controversy, I throw in gasoline on the fire and I'm complicit in their dirty Thurs

As for the "Compressor Route" (I prefer to call the "Maestri-Claus-Alimonte" on the ridge south-east), I can say that I consider it an incredible way that we have faced for make it even more obvious the failure of those who were forced to retreat after being stopped a few hundred meters from the summit, climbers considered the best in the world, unable to go to the top and the failure of which meant of course I lied when I said in 1959 to have made the summit with Toni Egger.

The truth that I wanted to prove on the southeast edge is:

There is no mountain impossible to climb but only climbers unable to do so.

In addition, over the years, I am even more convinced that to doubt the word of a climber means to question the entire history of alpinism from Balmat.

If I could have a "magic wand", I would delete the Cerro Torre in my life. "

This is a free translation, but respectful of the original message. And I hope to one day have the chance to meet Cesare Maestri including the road map impresses me far more than the Canadian-American roped who debunked the Maestri / Claus / Alimonte.

I'm not a groupie. I do not worship anyone. But we are all dwarfs perched on the shoulders of giants, and if you kill the giants, there are only dwarfs. We can not grow to destroy the work of others after all this time even though it is questionable according to the standards of our time. Rewrite history and heritage take the garbage is not worthy of the tradition of mountaineering. A lie potential, an oversupply, it validates destruction after half a century? This is not the spirit of the Mountain.

This is a dangerous precedent that opens the door to all the excesses and all the fundamentalist original purity.

When the rope has the Canada-US Partial ranking below (made, of course, with the equipment at the time), I may consider a review of my trial. This taken from Wikipedia in Italian but you probably understand the term''solitaria'':

The premium imprese sue di rilievo risalgono al 1951, quando dirty in the solitaria via Detassis al-Giordani dell'Altissimo Croz, e per primo effettuò discesa in the solitaria dalla Paganella. Nel 1952 diventa mountain guide. Da Allora if susseguirono imprese numbers, principalmente sulle Dolomiti; work ricordiamo quest:

Via Dibona al dell'Altissimo Croz (1952)

Via del Sassolungo Comici Salame al (1952)

Via Solleder in Civetta (1952)

Via delle Guide Crozzon sul Brenta (1953)

Via Trento (Detassis) went Brenta alta (1953)

Balance Via della Marmolada South Pilastro al di Penia (1953)

the traversata dalla Cima Ambi went Bocca del Tuckett concatenando top 16 in solitaria della catena in central meno di 24 ore (1954)

Via al Vinatzer Sass of Lues (1955)

Via Oppio al dell'Altissimo Croz (1955)

Via delle Guide Crozzon al di Brenta in discesa (1956)

lo Spigolo Cimon della Pala del North in prima invernale solitaria (1956)

Via Micheluzzi al Piz Ciavazes (1956)

Via al Solleder Sass Maor (in discesa), via e Buhl Via Maestri - Baldessari (in discesa) Roda di Vael went, the work he nuove life aperte 1964 ed Brenta in 1966 he knew Grostè Cima, Cima Campiglio, Cima Massari .

Tutte quest imprese furono realizzate in solitaria.

I really need two aspirins ....

WBraun

climber

Feb 1, 2012 - 11:00am PT

Jean Gurtorju -- "It took me two bottles of aspirin, this week to digest all the nonsense ..."

That's what happens when people tax their brains over mundane worldly stuff .....

TwistedCrank

climber

Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom

Feb 1, 2012 - 11:05am PT

Sadly, CT was CM's albatros.

I doubt K&K will carry a similar albatros for their deed. "Dude, there's other summits."

YvesD

Trad climber

New York (NY)

Feb 1, 2012 - 11:12am PT

Hope these mountaineers, who are certainly quite brilliant in their own right are not going to launch a "de-bolting" crusade in France (or Chamonix) or in the Dolomites (or elsewhere) because in their own "world/chapel" they feel the "ethical" need ! Unfortunately, this is not going to get "them" friends from the rest of the climbing world ...

Wade Icey

Trad climber

www.alohashirtrescue.com

Feb 1, 2012 - 11:32am PT

There is a certain granola crowd, mostly over 50...

I'm outraged...

Consecration, deification, resurrection, crusaders,martyrs...conspiracy on hallowed stone... no coincidence that the Popes' hat is shaped like Cerro Torre...Hallelujah!!!111666

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 1, 2012 - 11:34am PT

@coz

so be it, as it has been THEIR free choice

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 1, 2012 - 11:39am PT

Thanks to Jean Gurtorju and especially to Jean-Pierre Banville for contacting Maestri and letting us know. And thanks to WBraun for being the same old predictable ironic choirboy - or groupie - to use the word Jean uses for the same phenomenon.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Feb 1, 2012 - 11:42am PT

Two bottles of aspirin would screw up anyone, if not kill him outright. Even if they're baby aspirin.

Edit: Even if there are only ten pills/bottle, 20 regular pills taken quickly wouldn't be good for anyone, let alone an 80+ year old man with health problems.

monaco

climber

marseille (FR) - parma (IT)

Feb 1, 2012 - 12:02pm PT

in france a bottle of aspirins means something like 10 aspirins...

I think that the point is different...

Wade Icey

Trad climber

www.alohashirtrescue.com

Feb 1, 2012 - 12:12pm PT

And thanks to WBraun for being the same old predictable ironic choirboy

Thanks Werner!

JPster

Ice climber

colorado

Feb 1, 2012 - 12:40pm PT

Rolo, I am sorry but by "fair means" does not give Kennedy and Kruk the right to destroy history. If climbing Cerro Torre by “fair means”, gives the "right to chop” the Cesare Maestri Compressor Route bolts put up in 1959, then I suppose it is long past time to chop the Harding bolt ladder on the Nose, the Kor bolt ladder on Half Dome and to fill in the cut steps of Otto's Route on the Colorado Monument. “By fair means” does not give anyone the right to destroy climbing history. Who do they think they are to assume this level of ownership of Cerro Torre…?

If you want to climb by “fair means’ don’t clip the bolts and proclaim your accomplishment to the world…!

JP

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Feb 1, 2012 - 12:47pm PT

JP

That was so 1000 posts ago...

And the bolts were from 1970 not 1959. Did you even read the thread? It only takes about 3 hours.

mika

Big Wall climber

Zurich, switzerland

Feb 1, 2012 - 12:49pm PT

The inspiration of Kennedy and Kruk

It is the wise Oscar Wilde who tells us much about the inspiration of the Kennedy + Kruk Klan: Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.

The way the KKK whishes to live is: to climb Torre by "fair means", so far so good, but chopping the adjacent more easy climb is: asking others to live as one wishes to live.

So now we know that selfishness inspired the Klan!

WBraun

climber

Feb 1, 2012 - 01:30pm PT

Destroy history!

There's been no destruction of history whatsoever.

The history of Cerro Torre is well documented everywhere.

Think again, more aspirin ....

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA

Feb 1, 2012 - 01:48pm PT

What is interesting to me is that K&K used a number of Maestri's bolts on the descent since they are part of the rappel route. Is it OK to remove the bolts you didn't use, but leave the bolts you did use? What kind of statement does that kind of action make? Were they trying to 'erase' the route in which case they should have removed the bolts used for rappel or just trying to remove the bolts they didn't like? Both types were drilled with the compressor.

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 1, 2012 - 01:58pm PT

bhilden

What K&K did was taking the route to their own level by leaving some of Maestri's bolts. They didn't chop the route bolt-free because then it would have been above their own level. In many ways they did the same thing as Maestri did in 1970 on his own level during the circumstances at the time. And just as Maestri did at his time K&K are now rationalizing their choice.

The Larry

climber

Moab, UT

Feb 1, 2012 - 02:08pm PT

I wonder if the compressor still works.

Gene

climber

Feb 1, 2012 - 02:09pm PT

It needs a new carburetor.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 1, 2012 - 02:15pm PT

@mika,
the KKK chopping inspired me to be very very vicious ... :-)

@Lovegasoline,
what's funny is that someone already figured out the religious character of some "patagonian gurus" even before the birth of this thread ...

http://alpinesketches.wordpress.com/2012/01/23/pataclimb-when-toponymy-hides-a-crusade/
:-)

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber

San Francisco

Feb 1, 2012 - 02:17pm PT

Thanks to the Klan, as the situation is today, we will be seeing more fixed ropes on Torre again!

So you are saying it will actually be quite easier to climb Cerro Torre next season?

Nice.

Booking a ticket. Need to bag another trophy peak.

monaco

climber

marseille (FR) - parma (IT)

Feb 1, 2012 - 02:24pm PT

@ Lovegasoline

good point! KKK as jesuits!!! :)))))))))

and a clever explication of why several italian climbers like me...that always fight against bolts...do not like KKK's action

there is only one thing in the world that we unlike more than bolts...the pope! :)))))))))))))))))))))))))

seriously...we know very well what can be the consequences of ''owning the only true truth''.
the previously cited ''american imperialism'' is nothing compared to what our ''holy fathers'' did along the centuries imposing their ''true truth''.
sorry guys :(

I stated it before...the bold example is messner concerning his ''fight'' against the murder of impossible:

-do not destroy others' routes
-show to the climbing world what you think is the correct way climbing your routes
-real class will emerge without imposition

class rules!

for those who lost it...I would like to show you once more the sage words of Mario Conti...one of the first ascentionists of the Ragni route on Cerro Torre:

Certainly I want to congratulate with Kennedy and Kruk for their ascentand even more with David Lama for the free-ascent.
On removal of Maestri's bolts I absolutely desagree. A first ascent done in 1970, when even El Chalten existed, when Patagonia was not accessible as it is today, certainly done with methods that I did not approve, that I do not approve even today, still deserves respect for his historical value. This route is in fact, along with the controversy and the pages of literature inspired by it, a piece of the history of alpinism, history consists of beautiful and ugly things, and is representative of those years of mountaineering. Maestri put bolts in 1970, but others have not been more respectful, just think about the spits posed by Lama with subsequent removal by Garibotti. We can clearly state that among all the climbers that climbed Cerro Torre anybody can state that he had been consistent with what professed by himself. Maestri's Bolts and belays have been used by all. The certainty of a fast-descent has helped many, including some famous first-ascentionists, to ''play'' until the last possibility. In the same way others used the last part of the Compressor route to complete their new lines. I would point out that the only independent lines that reach the top are ours [Ragni route], and Maestri's route, with the last part climbed by Bridwell. Surely now the possibility of climbing Cerro Torre is denied for the most part of aspirants. Certainly these routes, symbol of an unsurvived Mountaineering, have been considered differently in the Alps. Maestri's and others' routes, such as the Minussi line in Lavaredo, have been free-climbed, nevertheless no one has ever arrogated the right to erase the historical value by removing the original bolts. Evidently the Torre is different, the charm of being involved in a controversy with famous climbers and unknowns is more passionating that ascents themselves, and so Kennedy and Kruk will be remembered in the history not for their beautiful ascent, but still thanks to Maestri, and the controversy over his forty years old decisions. In this sense, they should at least thank him.

Mario Conti

scuffy b

climber

heading slowly NNW

Feb 1, 2012 - 02:32pm PT

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1722872/Kruk-and-Kennedy-Free-the-Compressor-Route-on-Cerro-Torre

This is the thread that Rolo refers to as not being correct in the title.

maze

Ice climber

Feb 1, 2012 - 02:49pm PT

.."Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live. " (..thanks mika)

This works for Maestri, and for KKK.

Just this.

When i go on a mountain, i just try to make my transit clean and invisible, in the good and in the evil.

Peace.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 1, 2012 - 03:00pm PT

@maze, jou can't pretend that time just doesn't exists and use the same scale for maestri in 1971 and for kkk today

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Feb 1, 2012 - 03:49pm PT

Does anyone recall the days of the first pitonless ascents in the Gunks? There was a register at Rock and Snow full of quite a few stories of the great lengths people would go to to climb routes in the gunks without using any of the fixed pitons. Anyone have any stories? Some stories were wicked scary.

I think back then you really had to do it without any of the offending past's climbing hardware to consider it fair.

nature

climber

Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...

Feb 1, 2012 - 03:53pm PT

Free suggests they didn't use any aid.

at least it does to me and obviously many others.

nature

climber

Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...

Feb 1, 2012 - 03:59pm PT

so why do you question what is 'wrong' about that thread title?

Ghost

climber

A long way from where I started

Feb 1, 2012 - 04:14pm PT

But what is Consecration? What is Resurrection? What is this religious reference to?

I think the full thread title (if Supertopo allowed longer thread titles) would have been: "Cerro Torre, A Mountain Consecrated - The Resurrection of the Impossible."

An obvious play on the titles of two articles from many years ago: A Ken Wilson article titled; "Cerro Torre, a Mountain Desecrated", and the Reinhold Messner article titled "The Murder of the Impossible."

Just guessing, but it makes sense.

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 1, 2012 - 04:19pm PT

Lovegas

Brilliant hermeneutics!

nature

climber

Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...

Feb 1, 2012 - 04:21pm PT

ok then.... I won't disagree with what you just said. that's totally fair. however, he did state the other title was 'wrong' to which I agree that he was correct on that point.

Gene

climber

Feb 1, 2012 - 04:35pm PT

LG,

Rolo's site has the 2011 high point of the Fair Means route.

http://www.pataclimb.com/climbingareas/chalten/torregroup/torre/SEridge.html#fair

Click on 2nd & 3rd pictures on the right.

g

sac

Trad climber

Sun Coast B.C.

Feb 1, 2012 - 06:49pm PT

CT Free!!

I'm carackin' a redbull!!.... Not!!

http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web12w/newswire-compressor-david-lama-statement

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Feb 1, 2012 - 07:57pm PT

Geez, Neal - are you too Jewish to "get it"? "Consecrated" is merely a word play on the original title "Desecrated" from back in the day. Go kill a goat or something. Sheesh.

;)

Do you still have your black North Face duvet "uniform"? Neal used to always wear that coat, whether it was cold or knott.

Concur with the above - this thread has jumped the shark.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Feb 2, 2012 - 01:51am PT

How did they remove 102 bolts, with what tools, and how much time did it take?

A few years ago someone threatened to remove the bolts, and IIRC found it quick difficult to extract even one.

If the bolts came out easily, which seems a reasonable hypothesis, maybe the thing was in poor shape anyway, for one reason or another.

If the bolts were cleanly removed, then would it be open to those decrying their removal to replace them, if there's something that would work in the holes?

Alternatively, did Maestri in 1970-71, and Kruk and Kennedy in 2012, leave the job unfinished by not removing all the bolts?

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 2, 2012 - 02:23am PT

@mighty hiker

your question is the confirmation that most of yankees don't even know what are they arguing about

Maestri's bolt, as his route, are 40 years old. They are "pressure" bolts the ones in use in the 60ties for that kind of bad routes that were done at that time. they are not modern expansion bolt

drill a cylindric hole take a "tipless nail" with a diameter some tenth of millimter greater than the hole and hammer it into

that's it

yanqui

climber

Balcarce, Argentina

Feb 2, 2012 - 03:18am PT

Last time I went, before my daughter was born, when we drove into El Chalten the wind was blowing and it was spitting snow. The walls of the peaks were choked with ice. That summer no one summited El Torre or Fitzroy. There were exactly two nice days in January and they weren't in a row.

This summer my friend's son (the kids!) went on his first trip. I was looking at the photos in facebook the other day. They cruised the easy route on Guillamet, bouldered some, hiked up to Laguna Torre and played on the glacier, then bouldered some more. They must have been a week or ten days. Every day in T-shirts and not a cloud in the sky. Unbelievable. Inconceivable. It seems Maestri's route is not the only thing changing down there.

The cad

climber

Does it matter, really?!?

Feb 2, 2012 - 03:44am PT

Post #14 of this thread, from rolo:

... the bolts are "pressure pins" of sorts, a sort of glorified rivet. When you hit them from the top with a hammer the whole bolt comes out like butter. Three to seven blows is enough.

As you can see from the photos (google is your friend), most came out intact, some were broken.

monaco

climber

marseille (FR) - parma (IT)

Feb 2, 2012 - 04:51am PT

... the bolts are "pressure pins" of sorts, a sort of glorified rivet. When you hit them from the top with a hammer the whole bolt comes out like butter. Three to seven blows is enough.

really funny this statement by Rolo...if he would like to use an adjective that is not ''prescribed'' (''pressure'' is the correct and technical name adopded in EU)...he used glorified

a real love for religion and holy things...

Cerro Torre, A Mountain Consacrated - The Resurrection of the Jesuit Order in South American Mountaineering :DDDDDDDDDDDD

thanks Lovegas!

:DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

Siamo le vergini dai candidi manti
Sfondate di dietro ma monde davanti

We are the virgins with white coats
ruined from behind, but still sacred in front

:DDDDDDDDDDDDDD

sorry for the bad tranlation...

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 2, 2012 - 04:57am PT

really funny this statement by Rolo...if he would like to use an adjective that is not ''prescribed'' (''pressure'' is the correct and technical name adopded in EU)...he used glorified

may be he's a fan of "glory holes"

<grin>

monaco

climber

marseille (FR) - parma (IT)

Feb 2, 2012 - 05:04am PT

sorry Jim for misundersanding...I'm ironic

I do not mix climbing and religion...climbing and alpinism are (sorry Mr Hemingway) mere games

it seems to me that is Rolo that mixed up climbing and religion...or at least climbing and the ''feeling of sacred''

and we italians know really well (from the ""editto di costantino'' up to now) what can happens if religion and politic, society, knowledge...are mixed up...

Degaine

climber

Feb 2, 2012 - 05:38am PT

Honest question for those stating that the route is now unclimbable for many who aspired to ascend the Compressor Route: what's stopping you from going back up there to place new bolts, or to use the existing holes to place bolts?

The cad

climber

Does it matter, really?!?

Feb 2, 2012 - 07:24am PT

Nothing.
Enzolino, me and the others are organizing ourselves.
Just give us some time: first we have to go to Yosemite to, ehm, BUY a few hangers.

Cerro Torre, here we come!

LOL

nature

climber

Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...

Feb 2, 2012 - 07:51am PT

what's stopping you from going back up there to place new bolts, or to use the existing holes to place bolts?

the ability of the mouth surpasses the ability of the body/mind.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 2, 2012 - 08:13am PT

@mika,
you are right ... but to be calm all the time would be boring ... I enjoy to experience all the colors of our emotional rainbow, the red of passion and anger, the blue of calm and vision, the yellow of energy ... and so on ...
:-)

@stzzo,
nobody has deified Maestri. Many who criticized his style are also criticizing the KKK chopping. And the reason of this criticism is also in the context of their action.
The previous propaganda against Maestri and his route.
The lack of respect for the person and for climbing history.
The principle for which a perceived better style gives the right to erase previous routes.
The lack of consideration of previous climbers's decision about the destiny of the route.
The lack of consideration towards the will of the locals.
Do you want other reasons?
Do you want to mention the loose concept of fair means of these two kids?
Do you want me to mention the many inconsistencies of their account?**
Opinions are not just opinions. Opinions lead to actions. And if opinions and actions are not based in respect, conflict and war will necessarily rise, even in a niche activity like alpinism.

Everybody deserves respect.
But old people, have less energy to fight and defend themselves, and to bombard Maestri with wrong accusations, based on ignorance and fanatism, like Garibotti, Haley and KKK did, is unfair, arrogant and for this reason many people will fight against it.

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 2, 2012 - 08:24am PT

Former stzzo

You say: "Removing a mistake does not erase the lessons learned from that mistake."

When you say "Removing a mistake..": Do you think Maestri's bolting of the route has been removed? I would say: The actions of K&K have had the opposite effect. Maestri's bolting of the route has been more focused on than ever before and the reason for this is K&K's chopping and the use of the internet for argumentation. The only things that have been removed, or with other words chopped, are most of Maestri's bolts on the route.

And others will say: A new mistake has been made - the chopping of Maestri's bolts on the route. And some will add - and not all of them, but only those K&K didn't need for their own purpose to adapt the route to their own level. Actions that are seen as new mistakes that cannot be removed.

And if this is so: One mistake followed by a new mistake doesn't equal zero mistakes. Unless you're WBraun...

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 2, 2012 - 08:29am PT

About cultural misundarstanding ... this may explain something ... :-)

[Click to View YouTube Video]

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Feb 2, 2012 - 10:07am PT

...and to bombard Maestri with wrong accusations...

The bolts in the photos speak plainly and are not in any way "wrong accusations"; they are indelible statements of truth which cannot be denied or rationalized away by any means.

giggio

climber

Milano, Italy

Feb 2, 2012 - 10:17am PT

Siamo le vergini dai candidi manti
Sfondate di dietro ma monde davanti

We are the virgins with white coats
ruined from behind, but still sacred in front

standing ovation for monaco!

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 2, 2012 - 10:20am PT

Didn't Maestri say himself in that quoted interview that he lied about summiting in 59? Or did I misunderstand?

you did, probably because of google translator

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 2, 2012 - 10:26am PT

@healyje

You perceive many defensor of the '70 bolting?

two cases:

a) you need to register your perception
b) we need to study more English

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 2, 2012 - 10:35am PT

@healyje

The bolts in the photos speak plainly and are not in any way "wrong accusations"; they are indelible statements of truth which cannot be denied or rationalized away by any means.

I wonder if you can distinguish the difference between facts, and opinions.
The bolts in the photos are facts.
To call them atrocities, insane, vandalism, future killers, and so on are accusatory opinions and personal interpretations.
They are accusatory opinions and personal interpretations, which come from ignorance and narrow vision as far as climbing history and ethics evolution concern.
Has already been said that, during the time of the Compressor's route, other bolt ladders were used to force a way towards the summit.
To state that Maestri's bolts were "unnecessary by anybody’s standards, even those from back in 1970", as Garibotti said, it's just wrong, because there are several examples of bolt ladders during the sixties and seventies, in US or the Alps, used to force the way towards the end of a wall.
And nobody promoted a crusade against them.
Furthermore, the Garibotti's gang is surely unaware of the ice conditions of the wall, of the struggle and the required use of "pressure" (not expansion) bolts to pull up a weight of maybe 1000 kiloes, etc.
It's too easy to condemn the past achievements, using modern standard, knowledge and technology as a reference, and with this to justify a disputable chopping action.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 2, 2012 - 10:48am PT

@enzolino

you articulated too much, these yankees are manichean:

right or wrong, black or white...

they simply cant' conceive that it could have been both a mistake to bolt the route in that way then and to unbolt the same route in that way today. such concept is out of their simple dual state binary logic

pity them

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Feb 2, 2012 - 10:54am PT

Ensolino wrote: To state that Maestri's bolts were "unnecessary by anybody’s standards, even those from back in 1970", as Garibotti said, it's just wrong, because there are several examples of bolt ladders during the sixties and seventies, in US or the Alps, used to force the way towards the end of a wall.

Ensolino...it's ok if Americans place bolt ladders...what is hard to understand about that? :-)

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 2, 2012 - 11:48am PT

The yanks with more nuanced views got bored with the discussion long ago.

that maybe, it is unfortunate that they choose not to share their thinking as we are starting to believe that every yank is simpleminded.

Why are you still discussing this?

agreed, 'll try to refrain next time

Handjam Belay

Gym climber

expat from the truth

Feb 2, 2012 - 12:28pm PT

This thread was dead 800 posts ago...

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Feb 2, 2012 - 12:32pm PT

If'n you Ah-talian boys start callin' any of them good ol' boys from the South "Yankees" y'all might find yourselves starin' into an open can of Whoop-Ass.

Cuz they ain't gonna be as po-lite as that Canadian guy, Anders the Mighty Hiker.

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Feb 2, 2012 - 01:02pm PT

ENZOLINO WROTE:

"The bolts in the photos speak plainly and are not in any way "wrong accusations"; they are indelible statements of truth which cannot be denied or rationalized away by any means."

The flaw in the reasoning above is that it fails to acknowledge the qualatative difference between a few bolt ladders on El Cap (for the Nose - before the pendy into the Stovelegs, the one off Texas Flake, and the final headwall), and the indiscriminate, superfluous machine gun bolting on Cerro Torre.

All bolting and bolt ladders are not equal, just like all blonds and Americans and Venezuelans are not equal. Contrasting the compressor bolt ladders to the Nose, or other routes in the Dolomites and elsewhere, is not a convincing argument. Calling CM's original bolt epic on the Torre, in 1970, a form of vandalism is not and was not purely opinion, but reflects the general opinion and values of "fair means" climbing understood by most every climber the world over.

JL

neversummer

Trad climber

30 mins. from suicide USA

Feb 2, 2012 - 01:27pm PT

Nice one JL......

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 2, 2012 - 01:40pm PT

@Largo

or other routes in the Dolomites

have you ever been in Dolomites? how many routes of that time did you repeat?

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA

Feb 2, 2012 - 01:42pm PT

Uli wrote:

you articulated too much, these yankees are manichean:

right or wrong, black or white...

they simply cant' conceive that it could have been both a mistake to bolt the route in that way then and to unbolt the same route in that way today. such concept is out of their simple dual state binary logic

I agree. Because K&K only removed about 100 of the 450 bolts and they used some of Maestri's bolts on their descent for rappel anchors, they didn't 'erase' the route, but simply made a statement that they didn't like the Compressor Route being on the mountain.

If they wanted to make a real statement, they should have taken the time to remove all the bolts and tat and clean Maestri's route completely off of Cerro Torre.

I understand where K&K are coming from. They didn't like the Compressor Route being on Cerro Torre. But, only removing 100 of the 450 bolts says to me that they had some anger, but not the drive to do the whole job.
If you want to erase the route, remove it all.

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Feb 2, 2012 - 02:18pm PT

I don't think I'd need to preserve a bad-style route to remember that I don't like that style anymore than I'd need to preserve a blister on my hand to remember the lesson of not touching a hot stove. I'd be glad I learned that lesson, would remember how I learned it, and be glad the blister was gone. And I don't think this is arrogant.
...

And if this analogy were anything close to appropriate, it would have to be more like removing a blister from the hand of a third party which was put there by a second party, who wishes it would stay on that other person's hand so that they can remember to not burn other people's hands.

Priceless!

bhilden wrote: "only removing 100 of the 450 bolts says to me that they had some anger, but not the drive to do the whole job."

Actually, it was more like 125, and that's not bad for a day's work, after climbing the thing in 13 hours. They removed a helluva lot more than Maestri was able to on his own descent. And why do they have to remove every bolt to have a positive impact? It may not be minimally bolted yet, but it's a great start. Trail maintenance happens incrementally.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 2, 2012 - 03:07pm PT

I can see that on some issues is not possible to find an agreement.
For me if you make holes on the wall your are "bending" the rock to your level.
And that's true for many modern aid routes as well.
That's for me is a bad style. Period.
It has been used on the Nose, on many other routes and on Cerro Torre.

But the style doesn't tell the whole story.
Beside the style, there is the epic of the ascent. The Compressor route and the Nose are two epic climbs, realized by two stubborn, rebel, anarchic, outreageous, badass climbers. Therefore, in my opinion they don't deserve to be chopped just because some people don't like the style.

Is a fact that people have a different view on the Compressor and many other routes. And perhaps agreement will never be found. No big deal.
There are "top" and "bottom", patagonian and non patagonian climbers who have opposite view on this issue.
But then, in case of a controversy, who has to decide?

I have an opinion.
And my opinion is that ultimately the locals (not necessarily the residents) have to decide.
There was a fight already in 2007 in El Chalten about chopping the Compressor. Afterwards they attempted to decide with a vote. Garibotti said it was a little more than a farse. But it's definetively better than a decision taken by two boys taken during the ascent. For me this is f * # k i n g arrogant! The fact that they are persona non grata in El Chalten suggests even more how unwelcome was their decision according to most of the locals.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Feb 2, 2012 - 03:30pm PT

The underlying questions are the extent to which climbers ought to alter the natural environment (locally and globally) in their adventures, and how that should be decided. And the importance of symbolism. None of them easy questions, let alone with easy answers. The kind of stuff that murcy wrestles with, maybe.

BirdDog

Trad climber

Feb 2, 2012 - 04:03pm PT

Well this thread has brought me out of long time lurking. I’m just a lowly CA trad climber who has never been to Patagonia and at my age, if I get there it will be as a trekker and not as a climber. So feel free to ignore my comments.

A lot has made about whether there was a consensus for keeping the route or chopping it. I agree with Dingus above. Even without considering the legitimacy of the 2007 El Chalten meeting, it seems to me that the consensus of the climbers that attempted the route (I’m guessing easily in the many hundreds) was to keep it since no one chopped it over the last 40+ years. These climbers voted with their time, physical effort and financial commitment to climb the route. Now some who have previously been on the route may have changed their mind and believe it should have been chopped. But they had the opportunity to try the climb before changing their mind. That option has been removed for all future climbers by K&K.

I find some of the comparisons for the Compressor to be hilarious. Let’s see, it’s either the Berlin Wall or Dr. Mengele! I guess that makes any climber who ever tried to climb the route equivalent to an East German border guard or a Nazi death camp guard since if you’ve attempted the route, you clearly aided and abetted this crime against alpinism.

Now I don’t think K&K are bad guys or even evil Nazis :). I do think they made a poor decision. I can see the other side. But a route that has been around for 40+ years, attempted by hundreds of climbers, many attempts before they were even born, probably should have had a little more thought involved regarding the chopping than a decision made on the summit.

Just my 2c. Now back to lurking.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Feb 2, 2012 - 04:27pm PT

I am in Coyhaique, Chile on my way home. Quite the fuss. I haven't had a chance to read many of the posts but will when I return. The "historical" angle is interesting.....gee, 50 year old soda pop cans in Yosemite can't be removed at facelift because they're historical. There is good history and bad history and the "historical label" alone doesn't necessarily suffice as justification for somethings existence. The historical credentials of the CR on CT are, if anything, a BIG negative. Maestri lied about the 1959 route and then he came back years later with a compressor and enough rope and co-conspirators to force his way up the World's most beautiful mountan in a truly dispicable manner. The 1959 route (had it been done) would have been the greatest climb in history given the time and the conditions. The contrast between the two climbs is (I mean would have been) astonishing.
My feelings about the route are no secret but I always felt that the Argentinian climbers should be the ones to deal with it. Perhaps the seductive draw of the the CR gave them pause. The route certainly did attract people from all over the Globe. There has been quite a LOT of uneccessary bolting in the massif aside from the CR. Bolts at belays where they are not needed, bolts next to cracks etc. The stunning beauty of the mountains and the purity of the water and the air make Patagonia a place like no other. Maybe we should be more respectful when we climb these sublime peaks.

Peter Haan

Trad climber

San Francisco, CA

Feb 2, 2012 - 06:48pm PT

Here here, Jim.

Ghost

climber

A long way from where I started

Feb 2, 2012 - 06:52pm PT

Here here, Jim.

Or, perhaps in this case, "There there, Jim"

Hear Hear!

Johnny K.

climber

Feb 2, 2012 - 07:10pm PT

eric Johnstone

Trad climber

B.C.

Feb 2, 2012 - 07:52pm PT

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/photography/patagonia/cerro-torre-maestri.html
Sounds pretty solid.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Feb 2, 2012 - 07:55pm PT

Coz, in 1976 I climbed the Maestri/Egger line to the Col of Conquest with John Bragg and Jay Wilson on our way to the first ascent of Torre Egger. I was a supporter of Maestri at that time. Suffice to say that based on what I saw, and didn't see, I came to the conclusion that Maestri and Egger did not even get to the Col of Conquest. Proof......circumstantial, but probably strong enough to get a conviction from the OJ Simpson jury.

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Feb 2, 2012 - 08:19pm PT

Coz, lots of details here:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/825943/Cerro-Torre-the-lie-and-the-desecration

Edit: I just reread the entire thread linked above, and think these additional posts are worth sharing here:

Jeff, you have a point about icing, that wouldn't explain the complete absence of rap anchors and the false description of the climbing. G. Davis, concerning your point about desecration and the comparison with the Nose. El Cap is the premiere wall climbing venue on the planet but it lacks something a mountain like Cerro Torre has- ACCESSIBILITY. You can hike to the top of El Ca: hell, Dick Cheney, if he adjusted his pace maker, could do it. To me that factor, accessibility, is what makes a mountain magical. To have pieces of real estate, on this crowded planet, that are extremely difficult to attain fires up my imagination. Its a primitive thing, I get a similar feeling when I'm in an area inhabited by wolves. Using whatever technology it takes to attain these summits seems unfitting. I only wish that there was a mountain (say Torre Egger on top of K2) whose summit would never see a human footprint.

I have never advocated chopping the Compressor Route- I just mourn the fact that it is there.

-and...

Double D, I have been climbing in Patagonia for 35 years. I have seen possibly one occasion when icing (might) allow for an ascent to the col- and that would be unlikely. I have never seen an instance where the icing was substantial enough for ice bollards. Then, there is the problem of Maestri's erroneous description of the climbing. Keep in mind that we are talking about the possibility of Maestri getting to the Col of Conquest. There is also that small issue of getting from the col to the summit- see Rolo Garibotti. By the way, Maestri said that he and Egger found a 60 degree ice passage from the col to the summit. Subsequent exploration of CT has shown that such a passage does not exist.

-and

I have a photo of Toni Egger low on the route with the upper part of the climb to the col showing- it looks drier than when we did it. In my many trips to Patagonia I have never seen ice on the route sufficient for climbing. Even if that happened, there would never be enough ice for V-Threads- where are the rap anchors? Maestris's description of the traverse into the Col of Conquest is completely wrong ice or no ice. Oh! and where did Maestri's 60 degree ice route fron the Col to the summit go to? There is no such thing as 60 degree anything on that piece of mountain real estate.

I know that climbers always want to believe their peers, but this guy is a scoundrel and needs to be outed.

Sakshama

Trad climber

NY, MAcedonia

Feb 2, 2012 - 10:38pm PT

Great theme. I would not like to be a climber heading towards the route and hear that the bolts are taken away. You guys are excellent climbers but you put the route off limits to so many people dreaming going there and climbing it. I'm pro bolts if I may. If only top one percent can climb something that doesn't mean nobody else should. I like to see bolts on every major route in the world. Bring the climbing to the masses. It is a convenience like roads, airports and infrastructure. If somebody is aggravated by some bolts on a Patagonian rock why he is not aggravated by the road he takes everyday to work which after all it is not the way God intended. Tear everything down attitude will bring us back to the stone age.

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA

Feb 2, 2012 - 11:32pm PT

So, I have a question for all those who use the photo shown below to demonstrate what an abomination the Compressor Route is. Do you know if K&K removed these specific bolts?

The point I am trying to make is that in only removing 125 or so of the 450 total bolts, K&K did a pretty poor job of 'erasing' the route. OK, they are just kids and they admitted that they made the decision to chop the route when they were on the summit, but why are a number of you applauding a job that is, at best, 1/3 complete? And, we don't know if they removed the bolts that some of you hold forth as an example of what a travesty the Compressor Route is/was.

I could see K&K climbing the Compressor Route on the way up and deciding what has to be chopped and what should stay when they descend, but doing a climb that didn't use any of Maestri's bolts on the way up and then apparently randomly chopping bolts on the way down smacks of the same style, AKA 'I am going to do what I want and everyone else be damned', as that attributed to Maestri by his detractors. Pretty hypocritical from where I am standing.

I see the exact same act, just a different set of characters and 40 years apart.

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Feb 2, 2012 - 11:43pm PT

I see the exact same act, just a different set of characters and 40 years apart.

Dude, give 'em some credit. They didn't use a gas-powered compressor to remove the bolts, so that's an improvement in style.

SicMic

climber

across the street from Marshall, CO

Feb 3, 2012 - 02:00am PT

( #1640 for easy reference ) Actions which direcly affect others in the climbing community are properly questions of ethics. The primary ethical consideration involves leaving a route unchanged so others may enjoy, as nearly as possible, the creation of those who made the first ascent. Through the years there has been controversy over questions of placing and removing bolts, as well as other questions. Those removing bolts and holds often think everyone should do a route in the best possible style or not at all. This is extreme. Climbing in good style is admirable, but must everyone be forced to do it? A climb is a creation of the men who did the first ascent. To make it more difficult by chopping bolts is to insult those who put it up and to deprive others the joy of repeating the route as the first party did it. If we do not disturb the route done in a shoddy manner (eg the placements of unnecessary bolts), it will do no harm and may provide a good climb for the less capable. And as for the route done in elegant fashion- let it remain as a pinnacle of achievement to which we may aspire. The above definition of climbing ethics has the advantage of avoiding the chancy area of pre-judging the way a first ascent SHOULD be done. This is left entirely to the individual and becomes a question not of ethics but of style.

These sage words by Royal Robbins will be recognized from Basic Rockcraft, written in 1971, before some of the antagonists were born. But the sentiment of respecting the 'first ascent principle' is as timely in 2012 as it was under the masters' pen 40 years ago. If it's true on sport crags and Yosemite walls, it must be true all over the world. That's how style considerations must be judged and viewed. Destroy 'em all, or leave 'em all be. It's the arrogance of argument as to what is worthy that ruins the discussion. Whether in the Dolomites, Yosemite, Gunks, Everest, or some wind-blown spire, it seems this thread has forced us to look into that smelly can of worms to decide what passes muster. We are not to be envied. Nor will we necessarily agree.

To add to the absurdity, someone asked me if I planned to chop the bolts I'd placed on a face climb in Colorado after establishing the first ascent as a free solo. The bolts went a year later and haven't caused me ethical consternation. Due to minimal protection this stretch of rock wouldn't have been enjoyed by other climbers the past dozen years without the bolts, and my desire was for other climbers to be able to safely ascend it. Will I now have to become a zealot against my own consideration, remove the bolts and demand that the community sack up for a hundred foot runout after I remove them? Or can the bolts stay until I again solo the route at some later time and see the blasphemy of my retro bolting ways? Tough call. My solo of a route is not necessarily any more glorious than that of a roped team. Just different. It ain't Patagonia, but it's the same old story. I'd just expect an answer that addresses both questions. Bolts bad, pitons bad, cams bad, chocks and hexes bad, chalk and climbing shoes bad; except when they're all good for our own purposes. It seems like we pick our fight on the rock, with each of us taking what we're most comfortable with. That makes it tough to judge and unravel the true value of the Compressor from 40 years, hundreds of opinions, and thousands of miles.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 3, 2012 - 04:51am PT

I'm an honest guy so I assume people aren't lying, how about you?

great point coz!

Akuram

climber

Germany

Feb 3, 2012 - 09:44am PT

I am no expert, just someone who likes to read about climbing mountains that other people have done.
I am not able to do this myself, even if I wanted to or had the possibility.

I came across this argument through an article in a German newspaper and was interested, what experts/climbers think about the decission of the two guys to remove the bolts.
I am somewhat amazed, that a lot of you approve of their actions as I believe the compressor route has been widely accepted as a "historical route" nowadays, even if one does not agree with the way it was established.

The reasoning I read most is that the route now is purer again and how it should be and so on.
I wonder if these two guys would also remove the chinese ladder at the second step on Mt.Everest, because it deprives the climber of a "pure" route to the top?

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Feb 3, 2012 - 09:47am PT

It is my opinion that the Chinese ladder should be removed.
But that would negatively impact the commercial cash cow that is Everest.

BASE104

climber

An Oil Field

Feb 3, 2012 - 10:03am PT

Donini has spoken what most of us have felt for decades.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 3, 2012 - 11:10am PT

If someone would have said that the Compressor route is too domesticated in relationship to modern climbing standards, I could have agreed to chop some or many bolts.
If some would have said that the Compressor route's bolts are an atrocity, an act of vandalism and that the bolts were Maestri's insanity which stole the future to younger generations. I this case I would think that, in front of me, I have an ignorant fanatic without lack of respect for previous achievements and I would strongly disagree with the chopping.

I remember how nice it was to climb on many clean cracks on the Nose. It was told me that in the past there were more pitons and I think their removal was a positive choice, which did not disrespect anybody.
The last summer I climbed the Cassin route on Badile. Ahead of us there was a seventy years old guy with the guide. He told me that he climbed the route in 1970, but that in those times was much easier. And it was much easier not because he was younger, but because there were more pitons to pull. And I was happy that we could climb more clean cracks, using modern devices.

mike m

Trad climber

black hills

Feb 3, 2012 - 11:41am PT

I'm pro bolts if I may. If only top one percent can climb something that doesn't mean nobody else should.

That is what it means and that is the way it is.

Jim Clipper

climber

from: forests to tree farms

Feb 3, 2012 - 11:54am PT

Just woke up this morning. Still really no rain here this year, but cold ... I put on my tinfoil hat, rearranged my newspaper blanket and realized, "Wasn't Donini down there "fishing" when this whole thing went down?".

Just sayin'.

There has been quite a LOT of uneccessary bolting in the massif aside from the CR. Bolts at belays where they are not needed, bolts next to cracks etc. The stunning beauty of the mountains and the purity of the water and the air make Patagonia a place like no other. Maybe we should be more respectful when we climb these sublime peaks.

(smells like classical psy ops stuff to me.)

Carry (that torch) on ...

WBraun

climber

Feb 3, 2012 - 01:18pm PT

HARD-MAN says: "A true hard man needs no botls."

A true hard man can spell to make his point.

A true hard man is made up of nuts and bolts and eats poseurs .....

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Feb 3, 2012 - 01:56pm PT

In my next life, I may go up there with genetically modified tendons and muscles and cruise the thing in pleasant weather with no ice anywhere and wonder what weaklings the previous generation was

:-)

SicMic

climber

across the street from Marshall, CO

Feb 3, 2012 - 03:41pm PT

Update: The bolters and the choppers face off. Agreement imminent.

Akuram

climber

Germany

Feb 3, 2012 - 03:49pm PT

akurum, thanks for chiming in .... maybe we can squeeze another forty years out of this!

Look at it this way. comparing the trade routes on Everest with anything on Cerro Torre is a bit like comparing Deep water sailing with white water kayaking. The chinese ladder solves an annoying bit of real climbing in the middle of a ferociously long and oxygen starved hike while the bolt ladder is akin to building a bridge across all the bits that really matter.

I don't think there are very many who really think the bolts were ever appropriate or justified.

Sorry, again, I am no expert! I might make myself a laughing stock by entering this discussion, but then just ignore me. I was just making a comparison between known aids on mountains.

So you differentiate between necessary and not so necessary?
Who decides what is necessary? By what standards? Two young guys?
Are climbers not always using aids in some kind of form or shape? What would you say to the 80 year old climber that frowns at your NASA-insulated jackets and hardcover boots and all the other up-to-date gear, because it wasn't around 60 years ago.

It is my feeling that something that can only be achieved by a few people, is something extra-ordinary!
Now, should this made possible for a wider range of people by using aids? Is that desirable? The absolute pros would most likely deny that question, but some climbers that are not far off the top pros, would also like to stand at the top of this mountain, may disagree. They also would like to achieve this feat, that until now only the best 1% could have done.

But actually that is not the question here, is it?
The bolts were there and it is not a debate about if they should bolt that route or not, it is a debate about who gave the two young climbers the right to decide for many and remove the bolts, that have been there for decades?

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Feb 3, 2012 - 03:58pm PT

So as Jason is Canadian, and Chris Geisler is Canadian and almost climbed it with Jason last year, and Hayden is maybe sort of a bit Canadian, will it be renamed the Canadian route?

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 3, 2012 - 05:14pm PT

It will necessarily be "The Chopper route". "The Compressor route" and "The Chopper route". Or "The Canadian Chopper route".

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Feb 3, 2012 - 05:20pm PT

If you have seen Cumbre, then "Chopper" seems appropriate.

The cad

climber

Does it matter, really?!?

Feb 3, 2012 - 05:41pm PT

I'd vote for "The Chopressor Route" :)

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Feb 3, 2012 - 05:48pm PT

In the end, I have to wonder if the bad blood is not chiefly from climbers who - given a window of good weather - could for 40 years thieve their way up the greatest rock in creation via a bolt ladder, and now have to man/woman up and climb the chingadera via fair means. I can understand this, somewhat. Any well-seasoned wall climber with gumption, nerve and luck could probably get up the compressor route if the storms cooperated. And now the via feratta be gone. Perhaps the original line served its purpose, and now another option has been gifted the present day wall climber. Hard to say.

Conversely, the whole historical issue can be argued from various sides.
Many grifters and frauds are "historical" figures, but that doesn't mean we should laud their deeds for posterity, or that we'd not be better off if their sagas never happened.

I don't know, or have any answers. But I do know the guys and gals out there at the thin end of the wedge won't be asking for anyone's permission and could care less about any consensus.

JL

Jim Clipper

climber

from: forests to tree farms

Feb 3, 2012 - 06:09pm PT

I don't know, or have any answers. But I do know the guys and gals out there at the thin end of the wedge won't be asking for anyone's permission and could care less about any consensus.

shouldn't that be: "... the sharp end, the fat end of the thin wedge, ...

smiling here, at my editing behind a screen in a dark room. Thanks for the words, the experience, and the largess ...

nick d

Trad climber

Feb 3, 2012 - 09:35pm PT

Jim, I am just playing devil's advocate here. But I was thinking that one of your very favorite climbing areas is Indian Creek.

I have been visiting the Needles District for almost forty years, and when I was a kid I remember having to consruct rappell anchors. I was too much of a giant sissy to follow in the Jimmy Dunn mode and climb to the top, the rock up high scared the crap out of me.

Now no climbs go to the top, apparently I'm not the only giant sissy in town. You don't have to build rap anchors though, every one of the thousands of climbs have been bolted into submission by guys with power drills.

Their power drills are smaller than Maestri's, but they are power drills just the same.

So my question to you Jim, is the next time you go there to climb, are you going to the top and chopping any and all bolts you pass?

Nick Danger

jsavage

climber

Bishop, CA

Feb 3, 2012 - 10:03pm PT

Gas powered air compressor power drill always bothered me. Not that I'm likely to climb Cerro Torre with or without bolts but to me it seemed like the wrong place for that tool. Motor sports have always turned me off a bit.

Now Mr. Danger has pointed out a power drill is a power drill.

Very interesting.

Best to keep those drills and hammers off the rock. Save some stuff for the kids who will out style YOUR ascent.

Jim

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Feb 3, 2012 - 11:27pm PT

So,.. did Don Johnson's cell phone in Miami Vice bother you too?

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Feb 4, 2012 - 12:20am PT

"In my next life, I may go up there with genetically modified tendons and muscles and cruise the thing in pleasant weather with no ice anywhere and wonder what weaklings the previous generation was."

Hey, Karl - what were you in your past life?

Cheers,
P. D. Z.

["Danger" is my middle name.]

Jim Clipper

climber

from: forests to tree farms

Feb 4, 2012 - 12:22am PT

For Ron, a historical footnote:

Can you get reception from those towers?

klk

Trad climber

cali

Feb 4, 2012 - 12:39am PT

. . . Indian Creek. . . . Every one of the thousands of climbs have been bolted into submission by guys with power drills.

Their power drills are smaller than Maestri's, but they are power drills just the same.

So my question to you Jim, is the next time you go there to climb, are you going to the top and chopping any and all bolts you pass?

Apples and oranges.

Indian Creek is a roadside cragging area anchor bolted in the late 80s and '90s, mostly after the rise of sport climbing and arguably (in some cases) to prevent even worse environmental damage from improv rap anchors from the growing throngs.

Cerro Torre was one of the most desirable and difficult alpine rock summits in the world, and it was bolted in the teeth of a period move to end expedition climbing.

(And for those who keep bringing up the Harding Route, as if the '50s in California and the '70s in Patagonia were the same thing, that was also a radically different situation, in which American climbers adapted Tirolian/German traditions from earlier in the 20th century to link together crack systems with stretches of hand-drilled expansion bolts, which were then still something of a novelty.)

And before folks start drooling, I'm not defending the chopping.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 4, 2012 - 02:33am PT

@stzzo

Enzolino, first off, I want to make sure you know that even if I don't share your perspective I do somewhat understand it.

I'm curious about the case if someone -- the same person, at the same time -- would have said both of the above things. Would you have disagreed with the chopping, or agreed?

The point is that disrespect escalates the conflict rather than solving it. As a consequence, people will tend to re-bolt a route and at the end everybody loses: the choppers, the dissenters, and the wilderness of the mountain.

I've heard that some people want to place some bolts again on the Compressor's route. And this demostrates what I said before.

If someone might be interested, apparently the criticism towards the KKK chopping, in Italy, is unanimous
http://www.montagna.tv/cms/?p=38672
Even Salvaterra. In his opinion some of Maestri's bolts should be removed, but he wanted to ask Maestri's first. And I share the belief that we should pursue to keep the wilderness of the mountains. But there are different ways to do it. Unfortunately, the way KKK carried on their action shows just a lack of respect.

@Largo,
it seems that you support autonomous decisions without consensus as one of the "price" the vanguard has to pay (sorry if I misunderstand you). And that who is at the vanguard doesn't need consensus. But this doesn't make the authors of these choices necessarily heroes. Furthermore, the fact that KKK made their decision either along the route, or after a deep introspective dialogue (yeah ... sure ...) in my opinion shows just how immature and shallow was their decision.

jfs

Trad climber

Upper Leftish

Feb 4, 2012 - 10:49pm PT

http://colinhaley.blogspot.com/2012/02/removal-of-cesare-maestris-bolt-ladders.html

Long but thorough case for the removal.

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Feb 4, 2012 - 11:06pm PT

The google translate version of the Italian response above:
http://tinyurl.com/7rcywaj

Regarding Colin Haley's arguments, this one runs a bit thin, in my opinion:

"Others have criticized Hayden and Jason for using and leaving in place some of Maestri's belay/rappel stations. They did this as a compromise to appease you. If you think that is hypocritical, then feel free to go remove them. There is plentiful natural gear available, and climbing or rappelling the southeast ridge will not be compromised if you remove every last one of Maestri's bolts."

"..to appease you"--> huh!?
And "plentiful natural gear available", then why has the "fair means" ascent been so long in process?--not to mention the fact that no one has yet climbed and descended the route without the use of the original bolts.

(Edit) In a way, all bolts are convenience bolts. They obviously left a few so it would be easier to rappel. But in the same vein, Maestri put them in so it was easier to ascend. To me, this is a key point: once you assume the role of being the decider of which bolts on someone else's route are proper and which are not, the "pure" argument fails. Purer, perhaps, but "pure", no. We've seen this play out in Yosemite (as well as other arenas) on the Dawn Wall, with Robbins eventually realising the futility of such judgement. Fair means in this sense becomes very subjective.
(End edit)

The more the "defence" speaks, the more vague the original intent becomes. And intent matters here--after all, Maestri's intent is one of the recurring arguments justifying the bolt removal.

I reckon the two should stick with the adage: "Never explain - your friends do not need it and your enemies will not believe you anyway." Both the creation of the route, and the "first fair-means ascent" (in its current definition) as justification for the removal of the bolts were art in their own way, but a good artist never explains, rather only describes the original inspiration.

Hummerchine

Trad climber

East Wenatchee, WA

Feb 4, 2012 - 11:21pm PT

Holy crap jfs...that link you posted is frigging BRILLIANT! I cannot recall reading ANYTHING so astute on SuperTopo ever!

It was so brilliant in fact that it changed my mind. I've been going round and round over this issue, leaning towards thinking they should not have chopped the bolts.

After reading that essay, screw that. Those bolts should have been chopped 40 years ago, Maestri is one of the biggest dick's ever, and congratulations to the bolt coppers!

Hummerchine

Trad climber

East Wenatchee, WA

Feb 4, 2012 - 11:26pm PT

Just in case you did not click on the link...

Please read this and try to argue with it!

SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 4, 2012

The Removal of Cesare Maestri's Bolt Ladders on Cerro Torre
A couple weeks ago, climbers Hayden Kennedy and Jason Kruk completed the first "fair means" ascent of the southeast ridge of Cerro Torre, and on their descent successfully removed a large portion of the bolt ladders installed there in 1971 by Cesare Maestri. This has sparked a large debate within the global climbing community, as to whether it was a wise action, and if Kennedy and Kruk had the right to make it. I would personally love to stay un-involved in this debate, but having climbed in the Fitz Roy range for eight seasons, having descended the southeast ridge of Cerro Torre twice, and having attempted the southeast ridge of Cerro Torre twice by "fair means," I feel it is my obligation to share my thoughts. I will try to break this long-winded essay into separate, more managable subjects, starting with my personal history with Cerro Torre.

MY PERSONAL HISTORY WITH CERRO TORRE:

I have been dreaming of Cerro Torre since I was twelve years old. I don't remember exactly which photo I saw first, but at that time I was already obsessed with climbing mountains, and I specifically remember being awestruck by photos I saw of this mountain. Cerro Torre became my greatest dream - if there was one goal I wanted to accomplish in my life, it was to climb Cerro Torre. When I was fifteen I tried to convince my cousin Aidan, two years younger and my main climbing partner at the time, that we needed to start training, and go attempt the Compressor Route in two years - when I would be seventeen and him fifteen. By the time I was seventeen I knew I wasn't ready for Cerro Torre, but two years later, in 2003, I finally went to the Fitz Roy range with my friend Bart Paull. We managed to climb three of the easier summits of the Fitz Roy massif, and on our last climbing day, on Aguja de l'S, I finally saw Cerro Torre for the first time. On my second trip to Patagonia, in 2005 with Mark Westman, I managed to climb the rest of the seven "major summits" of the Fitz Roy ridgeline, and I decided that I was finally ready to try Cerro Torre.

In 2006 I went to Patagonia with Kelly Cordes, with Cerro Torre as our main goal. At the time my thoughts on the Compressor Route were fairly ambivalent, and we planned to attempt the West Face mostly because it was more suited to our climbing strengths and interests. Although we spent almost our entire trip festering in camp during bad weather, at the last minute a great weather window arrived. We climbed Cerro Torre via a linkup of the "Tiempos Perdidos" route on the left margin of the south face and the Ragni route on the west face (this was the first integral ascent of "Tiempos Perdidos"). The climb was an absolute dream come true - a beautiful, 1,500m line of fantastic ice and mixed terrain, that played perfectly to our strengths as a team, to a summit that I had been obsessing over for ten years.

Kelly and I descended Cerro Torre via the southeast ridge, which neither of us had been on before, and my thoughts on the Compressor Route changed dramatically. It is difficult to comprehend the Compressor Route without seeing it in person - both in terms of the enormous quantity of Maestri's bolts, and in terms of the bolt ladders' locations, in close proximity to easily-protectable, easily-climbable terrain. After seeing the Compressor Route first hand, I knew I had no desire to climb it, and since then I have never considered an ascent of the Compressor Route to be an ascent of Cerro Torre - the climber on that route is simply too disconnected from engaging with the mountain itself.

The following season, I had the tremendous fortune of being in the right place at the right time, and I got to partner with Rolando Garibotti to make the first ascent of the Torres Traverse. Although I can aspire to greater personal goals since I played a lesser role in the Torres Traverse than Rolo, I don't think I'll ever make an ascent more significant than this first ascent. I think that Rolo is certainly one of the best alpinists of our time, and the best Patagonian alpinist of recent years - seeing him at his peak of performance was an inspiration that continues to drive my progression as a climber today. Rolo and I also descended the southeast ridge of Cerro Torre, and I think that season, 2008, is when I first realized that Maestri's bolt ladders ought to be removed some day.

Last year, in February 2011, I made two attempts to climb the southeast ridge of Cerro Torre by "fair means," the first with Zack Smith and the second with Rolo Garibotti and Doerte Pietron. On both attempts we were turned back by poor weather at the base of the ice towers. On both attempts we carried a small bolt kit which we thought we might use on the headwall, rationalizing that adding a few bolts to avoid a few hundred was a sound trade. In hindsight I think it is fortunate that we were turned back by weather - perhaps if we had been able to continue we would have put several bolts in the headwall, which Hayden managed to lead without placing any. It would have been a perfect, short-term example of "stealing a climb from the future."

Since I first read about the Compressor Route, my cumulation of personal climbing experience, my knowledge of climbing history, and my cumulation of personal experience in the Fitz Roy range have all increased by huge amounts, and my opinion of the Compressor route has accordingly changed from an ambivalent one to a conviction that Maestri's bolt ladders ought to be removed. Because of the obviously controversial nature of removing Maestri's bolt ladders, I have never had the courage to act on my conviction. Now that Hayden and Jason have done what I believed in but was too cowardly to do, the least I can do is voice my support for them.

IT'S NOT ABOUT HAYDEN AND JASON - IT'S ABOUT CERRO TORRE

A lot of the discussion surrounding the bolt removal has been focused on who Hayden and Jason are, where they come from, what style they climbed in, if they can be considered "locals" of these mountains, and what their motives were. To me, this discussion is largely irrelevant to the real question: Do Maestri's bolt ladders belong on Cerro Torre, and if they don't, is it right to remove them 40 years after they were installed? For many people I think it is important that the people who removed Maestri's bolt ladders were the same people who first climbed the southeast ridge by fair means, but to me this doesn't matter all that much. I believe that Maestri's bolt ladders do not belong on Cerro Torre, so it really doesn't make any difference to me if they are removed by a Canadian, Argentinean or Cambodian climber, young or old climber. A few years from now we won't care too much about who removed Maestri's bolt ladders, we will care about what state the southeast ridge of Cerro Torre is in.

WHAT ABOUT RESPECT FOR CESARE MAESTRI?

Several people have been calling for more respect to be paid to Cesare Maestri, who is now in his old age and of failing health. Sorry to be brutally honest, but I simply don't have respect for liars. Maestri told the biggest lie in the history of climbing for the gain of his own reputation. Alpine climbing often relies on the honor system, and unfortunately people like Maestri ruin the system of honesty for all of us. Dishonesty goes beyond the simple game of besting one's competition - consider for a moment that Maestri's drive to be labeled the winner was so great that he didn't even have the decency to tell Toni Egger's mother and sister the true circumstances of how Toni died in the mountains.

The fact that Maestri also vengefully showed the world the most heavy-handed climbing style it has ever seen - the epitome of the "murder of the impossible" - doesn't help him gain respect.

If Maestri were to come clean in his old age, and tell the world what actually happened during his 1959 Cerro Torre attempt, it would probably require more courage than any climb ever demanded of him. If Maestri could do that, I could respect him.

WHAT ABOUT RESPECT FOR THE STYLE OF THE FIRST ASCENT?

Many people have been bringing up the very valid point that generally in climbing we respect the style of the first ascent of a route. However, people have been neglecting to keep in mind that Maestri did not make the first ascent of the southeast ridge of Cerro Torre. In climbing mountains, especially such sharp needles as in the Fitz Roy range, a successful ascent ends on the top of the mountain. Not only did Maestri not manage to reach the summit of Cerro Torre, but most evidence suggests that he did not even reach the top of the headwall (Jim Bridwell was the first to note this). Therefore, if you want to ask the first ascensionists their opinions about what should become of the southeast ridge of Cerro Torre, you will have to consult Jim Bridwell and Steve Brewer.

Some people will inevitably say that even though Maestri didn't climb Cerro Torre, the style up to his high-point ought to be respected. By that same logic, Maestri would have been violating the style of Fonrouge, Boysen, Burke, Crew and Haston, who climbed half-way up Cerro Torre's southeast ridge in 1968 without placing any bolts. By the time Maestri had reached the same level on the mountain as their highpoint he had already placed hundreds of bolts.

THE COMPRESSOR ROUTE IS AN OUTLIER

Obviously the concept of "fair means" is very subjective. What one person considers only "necessary" bolts can vary dramatically from what another person considers "necessary" bolts. However, the Compressor Route bolt ladders are far, far, beyond anyone's definition of "necessary" bolts. Even Kurt Albert's routes on nearby Fitz Roy, Aguja Mermoz and Aguja St. Exupery (which have bolted belays every 35 meters or less, and include at least 3 bolts per pitch, immediately next to perfect cracks) are not even in the same realm of over-bolting that the compressor route is. There were some spots on the Compressor Route where a climber clipped to one bolt with a daisy chain could easily touch more than ten other bolts.

How did Maestri put up a climb that was so far beyond anything else in terms of bolting? The answer is that he used tactics that have never been used by another climber before or since. A gasoline-powered air compressor is not climbing equipment - it is industrial equipment. With his compressor Maestri could place a bolt more easily than he could place a chock or piton, so of course bolt-ladders up blank rock, even with crack systems immediately nearby, were suddenly a logical solution for him. Maestri explained that he put a single bolt ladder up the entire 5-pitch headwall because they had forgotten the pitons down below. How does one arrive to 5 pitches below Cerro Torre's summit and only there realize that the pitons were left far below? - only with a gasoline-powered air compressor.

Many people have been comparing the Compressor Route to The Nose on El Capitan. I think that most of these people must not have seen both routes in person. If the Compressor Route were established with the same bolting discretion as Warren Harding used on The Nose, it would have something like 50 bolts on it. On the other hand, if The Nose were established with the same bolting discretion as Maestri used on the Compressor Route, it would have more than 2,000 bolts on it.

I am not extremely anti-bolt. Even Kurt Albert's bolts on the east pillar of Aguja Mermoz (a route which was climbed 90% of the way to the summit without a single bolt, in a single day, before Albert layed siege to it), which go beyond all normal conventions of acceptable bolt use, do not bother me anywhere close to as much as Maestri's bolt ladders on Cerro Torre. I really think it is such a sad shame that the most beautiful mountain on earth (in my opinion), which naturally requires fantastic and difficult climbing to reach its summit, is marred by a via ferrata (And yes, it is a "via ferrata," even if much more difficult than most via ferrata - after all, "via ferrata" means "iron way.").

ADVENTURE VS. TOURISM

As in any discussion regarding bolts that some people consider unnecessary, some people have asked why Hayden and Jason didn't just leave the bolts in, and future climbers could always opt to simply not clip them. However, as long as the bolts ladders are there, future climbers are denied an adventure, because the mere presence of the bolts changes one's experience dramatically. With the bolt ladders removed, a climber ventures upward with doubts and fears, constantly trying to gauge where the next protection will be and where the route will go, and climbs with commitment - knowing that a poor route-finding choice might place him or her in a bad situation. With the bolt ladders in place, the knowledge that you can immediately end your fear and doubt at any moment removes the commitment completely. With the bolt ladders in place, the climber is denied the experience of moving fearfully into the unknown, and the elation that comes from finding a good crack or good holds for security. With the bolt ladders in place there is no real adventure; choosing to not clip the bolts can only amount to a contrived game. I certainly am much more inspired to go attempt Cerro Torre's headwall now, as a canvas of natural rock, than I ever was before to go play a contrived game of bolt-skipping.

Thus, climbing for adventure on the southeast ridge of Cerro Torre, and climbing for tourism on the southeast ridge, are completely at odds with each other. As long as Maestri's bolt ladders are in place, one cannot climb for adventure on the southeast ridge, and with the bolts removed, the tourists are denied their easy route to the summit. It really comes down to a question of which you value more, adventure or tourism? I think we can all agree that the currently-popular phrase "adventure tourism" is oxymoronic.

I'm sure that many people will be offended that I refer to the Compressor Route as "tourism," and I'm sorry about that. Ultimately, I think it more important to be honest and potentially offensive than speak tactfully and untruthfully. Quite simply, the Compressor Route is an avenue to "tick" the summit of Cerro Torre without actually engaging the difficulties of the mountain - completely analogous to climbing Everest with supplemental oxygen.

THESE ELITISTS HAVE DENIED MY RIGHT TO EASILY ASCEND THE SOUTHEAST RIDGE OF CERRO TORRE!

Many people have called Hayden and Jason elitist, because they are forcing future climbers on the southeast ridge to rise to their climbing level, removing the via ferrata which allowed access to climbers who didn't actually posses the skill to climb Cerro Torre's southeast ridge. What then about the poor unfortunate souls who are denied their "right" to summit Torre Egger? What if I went to Patagonia next year and installed a 1,200m bolt ladder up the east pillar of Torre Egger, making it accessible to all the 5.8 climbers who are currently denied their Torre Egger experience?

It is ridiculous to attempt to choose an arbitrary difficulty-level that a route should be dumbed-down to. Here's a concept: just leave the difficulty level as it was naturally!

DESTROYING HISTORY

History is not a physical object. You cannot destroy history unless you are able to burn every book, destroy every hard-drive and erase everyone's memory. At most one can claim that a monument has been destroyed, but history remains unharmed. Maestri showed us the worst example of heavy-handed climbing style that a mountain has ever experienced - it is not something that people will forget. Also, Maestri's air compressor remains lashed to the middle of Cerro Torre's headwall - as long as it remains it will be unmistakable physical evidence of what Maestri did to Cerro Torre (although personally I would rather see it removed).

BETTER LATE THAN NEVER

Of course it would have been much better if Maestri's bolt ladders were removed the year after their installation rather than 40 years after the fact. If that were the case, no one would call them "history" or "Argentine patrimony." However, I think that when the bolt ladders were installed, most of the world wasn't aware of the extent of the bolting. In addition, Maestri's siege on the southeast ridge used 1,000 meters of fixed rope and nine months, so it took a long time before people realized that the bolt ladders could be easily removed in a single day.

For the 40 years that Maestri's bolt ladders were in place, Cerro Torre was a compromised mountain. Very impressive routes that joined the Compressor Route at the headwall, such as Devil's Directissima and Quinque Anni ad Paradisum, will unfortunately always be tarnished by the fact that they ascended the last five pitches of Cerro Torre on a ladder of bolts. This is not the fault of the first ascensionists (Jeglic, Karo, Knez, Podgornik, Kozjek, Fistravek, Salvaterra, Beltrami, and Rossetti - many of the biggest names in Cerro Torre history), because, as I already explained, skipping the bolts immediately in front of you is a contrived game that most alpinists are not interested in. Both of these routes climbed an enormous amount of very difficult climbing to reach the base of the headwall, but the last five pitches of Cerro Torre were stolen from them by Maestri.

The removal of Maestri's bolt ladders was inevitable. If it hadn't been done by Hayden and Jason, it would have been done before too long by someone else. There were other climbers in El Chalten this season who had specific plans to remove Maestri's bolt ladders - and no, it wasn't me or Rolo, but some very strong and accomplished alpinists from Europe.

HYPOCRISY OF USING SOME OF MAESTRI'S BOLTS

Some people have told me that anyone who has ever used Maestri's bolts (such as Garibotti, Cordes and myself rappelling from them) cannot support the removal of the bolts without hypocrisy. I think it is almost exactly the opposite in fact - I think that people who have seen Maestri's bolt ladders in person generally have a much better understanding of their physical context than people who have only read about them or seen photos.

Others have criticized Hayden and Jason for using and leaving in place some of Maestri's belay/rappel stations. They did this as a compromise to appease you. If you think that is hypocritical, then feel free to go remove them. There is plentiful natural gear available, and climbing or rappelling the southeast ridge will not be compromised if you remove every last one of Maestri's bolts.

INTEGRITY

As I said at first, I would personally prefer to stay far away from this controversy. However, I feel that Hayden and Jason have done a great service to the global community of Patagonian alpinists, and it saddens me to see them receive so much criticism for what I consider an altruistic act. Many of the people who agree with the bolt removal are staying quiet simply to stay out of drama (and in fact, some people who have previously expressed their wish for the bolt ladders to be removed, are now back-pedaling in the face of controversy), but I see it as my obligation to speak out in support of them.

I'm sure that many people, particularly on internet forums, will criticize me for writing this essay. Please remain civil. Just because you disagree with my opinion doesn't mean you need to hate me or denigrate me personally. I won't criticize you for lamenting the bolt removal. Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion.
POSTED BY COLIN AT 11:19 AM

klk

Trad climber

cali

Feb 4, 2012 - 11:28pm PT

I think this is correct about "escalation," but incorrect about "solution." This issue has no solution, and isn't likely to have one in the near future.

That bolt ladder was going the way of all flesh. Similar ladders in lower altitudes have gradually rotted, going from A0 to A4 to a nothing over the years. (Cf. Ed Cooper's ridiculous ladder on The Squamish Chief-- probably a better analogy than The Nose.)

Typically, as the ladders deteriorate, folks add occasional additional bolts along the way. Chop some bolts. Gank others. Glue plumber's tape on top of others. At some point, folks have to make a decision: Replace the bolt ladder or not? Replace parts of it? Move parts of it? Repl;ace belays? Rap stations?

Now, the choice is clear, and without an additional ten, fifteen or twenty years worth of intervening tat, rust, and gankage. The chopping accelerated the natural process. Easy enough now for anyone motivated to pool some Hiltis and spend a season on crag maintenance. It was going to have to happen eventually. Or not.

That doesn't make chopping "right." I grew up with alpine style as my ideal, but the justification set out in the Alpinist piece-- no consensus was going to happen, therefore we imposed our will--makes me uneasy.

I am curious about the chop. I gather that the team didn't carry a bar, Sika and emery paper to cleanly pull and re-fill each hole with granite dust and glue.

Oxymoron

Big Wall climber

total Disarray

Feb 4, 2012 - 11:32pm PT

It's too wide. Thanks.

ms55401

Trad climber

minneapolis, mn

Feb 4, 2012 - 11:32pm PT

at the risk of sounding like a noob, how does one chop a bolt? my understanding is that Kruk/Kennedy decided to chop on the spur of the moment, but I'm guessing they had only the usual alpine paraphernalia at hand.

can someone post a photo essay on bolt chopping with before and after?

jfs

Trad climber

Upper Leftish

Feb 4, 2012 - 11:35pm PT

And "plentiful natural gear available", then why has the "fair means" ascent been so long in process?

Duece I'd guess that's because the "plentiful natural gear available" is not in reference to the actually un-free climbed portions of the headwall. Rather a reference to the easy terrain down low. Doesn't seem vague to me.

Anyway...just thought Colin's thoughts were a worthy addition to an admittedly pretty tired thread.

ymmv.

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA

Feb 4, 2012 - 11:39pm PT

Colin Haley's post on the matter was interesting, but it still doesn't answer a few of my questions which are fundamental to the whole discussion.

I still don't understand why people laud K&K for a job less than 1/3 complete. If their goal was to erase the Compressor Route then take out all 450 bolts. Of course, we know the answer to this question. They only decided on the summit of Cerro Torre to "chop" the route.

If K&K had formulated a plan beforehand to remove all bolts(or all unneccesary bolts) and then followed through then I would be much more likely to applaud their efforts because they made a statement to "erase" the Compressor Route and followed through until it was gone.

As it stands now, the Compressor Route is like a bastard child. Some bolts are gone and some bolts remain. I am guessing that some of the bolts that remain are the same bolts that many of you use to point to what a mess Maestri made.

The bottom line. If you are going to do a job, either do it right or don't do it at all. I challenge K&K to man up and go back up on Cerro Torre and finish the job they started. If they do that then I will have more respect for their motives and their efforts.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Feb 4, 2012 - 11:40pm PT

Kerwin, the bolts on the Grand Wall at Squamish were as much Jim Baldwin's effort as they were Ed Cooper's. And the bolts weren't unnecessary let alone ridiculous, in context of the times.

It seems possible that Maestri honestly believes that he and Egger reached the top in 1959. That is, whatever happened to him and Egger, and then to him alone, had psychological consequences such that he can't remember, can't distinguish fact from delusion, and perhaps later stitched the pieces together. What injuries or illness (if any) could cause that? Concussion? Anyway, if he firmly if wrongly believed that they got to the top, based on the 'evidence' of his memories, that might explain some other things. It seems unlikely, given that the actual evidence from 1959, and what was seen there in 1976 and later, is so different from what Maestri claims they encountered and did. Still, it's a hypothesis that should be considered. An internally consistent delusion.

Edit: Baldwin and Cooper placed few if any bolts below the top of the Flake/Apron Strings, and although it's irrelevant, may not even have known of the ledge approach to the top of the Flake. They followed the Flake corner nearly to its top, then bolted up and right to the bottom of the Pillar, using natural features where available. And what much later became Mercy Me wasn't known at the time, or obvious - Snake Dike in the Valley may have been the first such climb, but some years later. (The Mercy Me approach to the base of the Grand wasn't done until the late 1970s or later.) Had Ed and Jim done Mercy Me as an approach to the bottom of the Pillar, again in context of 1961 equipment and technique, I wonder how many bolts they would have used?

klk

Trad climber

cali

Feb 4, 2012 - 11:56pm PT

the bolts on the Grand Wall at Squamish . . . weren't ridiculous, in context of the times.

that first run was fairly ridiculous, even at the time, since you could basically walk to the top of what is now apron strings. and since it turned out that the first chunk of (what became) mercy me was ridiculously easy-- and should've been visible from various lower vantage points --i'm not keen to give that team a pass. it's not like the recon for those lower sections were dauntingly difficult to approach.

but yr right that the catechism most of us grew up with-- clean, pins, bolts, in descending order of preference --wasn't entirely standardized at the time in north america and esp. at squamish. we could start another thread on bolts in the fifties and early sixties with a heavy pnw emphasis, so as not to drift this thread. heh

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 5, 2012 - 01:41am PT

Typically, as the ladders deteriorate, folks add occasional additional bolts along the way. Chop some bolts. Gank others. Glue plumber's tape on top of others. At some point, folks have to make a decision: Replace the bolt ladder or not? Replace parts of it? Move parts of it? Repl;ace belays? Rap stations?

yes that's it, and the whole process IS SHARED by the community

after that process is complete you get a CLASSIC, like the nose, like thousand of other routes, with bombproof rappel stations, with some bolt ladders where people like to have it and with crack cleaned from pitons

that's the way that compressor route should have followed. Now let's see what will happen

anyway this PARTIAL unbolting done that way (1) was only a BAD shortcut to fame (2) for them

(1) on stealth: not stated as a goal before the ascent
(2) good or bad let's see

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 5, 2012 - 04:41am PT

K&K decided to chop the bolts during the climb in an emotional burst of rage over the bolting "atrocity" and "the rape". They think of themselves as heros tearing down the "Berlin wall". The emotional thinking and the self-aggrandizement has no power to convince. The actions were done by two exciteable boys in two mens bodies.

Colin is doing his best to make their ethical thinking look better. He has the ambition of producing a coherent bleak after-justification. I am not impressed.

They left some of the bolts for "us" he says... They did it for "us"? Really??? LOL...

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Feb 5, 2012 - 05:16am PT

They were there primarily to climb, not chop. It was nice of them to clean up what they did. They or someone else should now go up and finish the job and patch it while they're at it. I'd be happy to donate a box or two of epoxy sticks for the job.

Roger Breedlove

climber

Cleveland Heights, Ohio

Feb 5, 2012 - 11:51am PT

I wonder whose side the weather is on?

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Feb 5, 2012 - 02:47pm PT

As far as the Grand Wall goes, all I'm suggesting is that it be assessed in context of 1961. That is, in light of the equipment, skills and knowledge they had then, and not with 20:20 hindsight. And especially considering the physical environment, and what was known of it. Baldwin and Cooper wanted to do a climb on the Grand Wall. Unless you go to its far left (University Wall) or far right (Crap Crags), all lines feature substantial blank stretches. The Grand Wall utilizes as many natural features as are available, and is as close to a 'natural' line on the wall as there is. (All in 1961 context.) Jim had done the Peasants' Route a year or two before, with Les McDonald - a sort of reconnaisance, perhaps. I believe that Baldwin and Cooper looked at the route with binoculars before starting, and wanted to do a 'direct' line.

In terms of some specifics:
1. They used few if any bolts below the top of the Flake, which is also the top of what later became Apron Strings. A non-issue.
2. The bolt ladder leading up and right to the Split Pillar starts a little below the top of the Flake, perhaps to reduce diagonal drilling. Meaning a few more bolts.
3. It's unclear if they knew that the top of the Flake could be reached by scrambling from the left along a ledge system.
4. In 1961 context, Mercy Me is not an obvious line leading to the Pillar. It diagonals up and left, involves some tricky climbing and traversing to get back across, wasn't the sort of thing that was climbed much in those days (dyke), and wasn't established as an alternative approach until much later, using a fair number of bolts. It's doubtful that Cooper and Baldwin were aware of Mercy Me, or considered it as a line - whether they should have considered it is perhaps another matter.
5. The "Yosemite comparables" for the Grand Wall were things like the Nose of El Capitan and the west face of the Leaning Tower. The Salathe Wall wasn't done until autumn 1961.

Overall, the Grand Wall was no great advance in style and technique, in terms of world climbing at the time. Neither was it a step backward. And Cooper, at least, was then one of the strongest climbers in North America, even if he was seen as an unfashionable outsider by the Yosemite 'elite' - some of whom jumped to conclusions that they still won't give up. He'd done a number of long, hard climbs, more alpine than rock, but including things like the east face of Bugaboo Spire.

The contemporary comparables for the compressor route in 1971 are (possibly) routes in the Dolomites, the Dawn Wall on El Capitan, and Tis-sa-Ack on Half Dome. All involved quite a lot of bolts, although on the latter two few if any unnecessary bolts, and of course no compressor. Mind you, neither is the weather in Yosemite so foul as in Patagonia in winter. Not that Maestri necessarily knew or cared much about what those in Yosemite were doing.

Comparing the compressor route to the Grand Wall, or the west face of Leaning Tower, is ahistorical nonsense.

house of cards

climber

Feb 5, 2012 - 09:44pm PT

Regarding Mario Conti's recent statements against the bolt chopping,
in Giorgio Spreafico's book, Enigma Cerro Torre, page 266 Mario Conti says:

"Noi abbiamo dimostrato che era possibile spuntarla in modo normale, in definitiva con un stilo classico che riproponeva e force evolveva quanto si era sempre fato in alpinismo. Con il compressore invece Maestri ha rovinato tutto. Se oggi il Torre ha cento ripetizioni, e perche esiste quella sua via. Solo se toglie le fisse, i chiodi a pressione e tutto il resto che la sopra si e acumulato con il trascorrere del tempo, solo cosi puoi imaginare la montagna com'era, anzi io dico come dovrebbe ancora essere!"

May be Enzolino can translate the whole paragraph but in essence Conti says that "With the compressor Maestri ruined it all" and that "Only by taking out the fixed lines, the bolts and everything else that has accumulated up there over time one can imagine the mountain like it was, like it should be". A shorter translated version of this quote was used by Rolo in the opening of this thread.

One could make any number of interpretations from this quote, but it seems pretty clear that it is at odds with Conti's recent statements. Did he have a change of heart? Why?

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 6, 2012 - 03:30am PT

@house of cards

quick and dirty translation of your Conti's quote:

"We proved that was possible to reach the summit in a regular way, with a classic style that re-proposed and maybe evolved what has ever been done in alpinism. With compressor Maestri ruined it all. If today CT can count one hundred ascents is because of his route. Only by taking out the fixed lines, the bolts and everything else that has accumulated up there over time one can imagine the mountain like it was, I say more like It ought still to be."

in the recent statement (my translation is in post#1505) the same Conti said

"On removal of Maestri's bolts I absolutely disagree."

and

"I certainly did not approve the methods used then and I do not approve them either today"

up to everyone decide if this is a contradiction or if Conti knows that "ought to be" is a personal statement and in order to deal with other people's personal statements (that maybe he thinks equally legitimate than his own) it is better not to undo the past.

(at least in europe to prove better rock-ethics you don't erase bad one in existing routes rather you open a new route with different style)

Another quote form his recent statement

'This route is in fact, along with controversy and the pages of literature inspired by it, a piece of history, history consists of beautiful and ugly things, nevetheless those things are representative of those years of mountaineering."

this is orthogonal thinking with respect to stating ethical value to CM ascent right or wrong that it was

I like the Conti that emerges from these writings, I like the complex multi-level logic opposed to the binary manichean one used by some rock-religion fanatists

Degaine

climber

Feb 6, 2012 - 04:46am PT

Two questions, one a repeat of my prior question.

1) Given the precedent set by both parties (Maestri's and Kennedy/Kruk) of pretty much doing whatever they wanted, why don't those of you who want to climb the Compressor Route with bolts head back up with a power drill (or drills), bolts, and place what you feel is needed?

2) I don't understand the first "fair means claim" (nor the need to make a "first" claim to begin with), could someone please explain? It's not like the did not use some of the existing bolts, especially on rappel. In today's day and age do people still really feel the need to thump their chests and claim "I was the first" in order to stroke their egos? Especially in an activity like climbing / mountaineering? (Stupid question, I know)

"Conquistadors of the useless (les conquérants de l'inutile)" was indeed an appropriate title.

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Feb 6, 2012 - 07:50am PT

I'd just like to celebrate the new foreign contributors here and celebrate the valuable community discussion that's been relatively civil.

Peace

Karl

house of cards

climber

Feb 6, 2012 - 08:07am PT

This written by Ermmano Salvaterra last year for Desnivel Magazine, after Kruk and Geisler's attempt (note that around the same time Zach Smith also made an attempt on the SE ridge):

"E la loro idea di togliere o rompere i chiodi di Maestri? Altra questione che ha suscitato un grande dibattito. Personalmente sarei d’accordo perché la via del compressore è stata semplicemente rubata al futuro come ha detto Silvo Karo. Secondo me chi sale come facevano Jason Kruk e Zack Smith avrebbero il diritto di fare un lavoro simile. Lasciare solo il compressore appeso in parete come segno di quella salita."

Rough translation: what about their idea of chopping the bolts? This is something that has generated a wide debate. Personally I would be in agreement because the compressor route, as Silvo Karo says, was stolen from the future. I think that anyone like climbs the line like Jason Kruk and Zach Smith ((means: "clean"/"by fair means"/etc)) would have the right to do it, to leave the compressor as the only sign of that climb ((reefers to Maestri's climb))

Just like Conti Salvaterra had a change of heart after the deed was done.

While I can appreciate the "complexity" of Conti's thoughts as Uli describes, it seems clear to me that he changed his mind and I cant get over that fact. When well respected climbers like Salvaterra and Conti speak they should be careful to explain themselves clearly because the young generation listens.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 6, 2012 - 08:32am PT

@house of cards

If not about Conti, about Ermanno I agree with you, I had the same impression that he changed his heart (also from other statements I read and forgot to note so I can't' quote here) and my impression is that he changed *after* the unbolting has begun to make some mess with lot of contrary opinions in Italy and also in Europe (and maybe some in America). Seems more like he swam downstream following the main current...

But it may nevertheless be that the debate has "enlightened" him to be less manichean and more "complex" :-)

monaco

climber

marseille (FR) - parma (IT)

Feb 6, 2012 - 08:33am PT

I thinks that, if there is one positive thing about this unilateral action done by KKK, is that force people to reflect...

reflect about ethics...for those that sometimes justified bolts/spits/siege
but also reflect about the history of mountaineering and the respect for what had been done by our ''fathers''...good or bad things

as someone state before KKK entered a grey region, and nobody is a white knight. I think this is the reason that push people to change advise...like Conti or Salvaterra

don't we accept the Maestri's bolts?...ok, I agree.
but in the same way I don't want to accept all the bolts on alpine climbs
1/10/100...bolts is the same things...the murdering of impossible, is our egoistic un-capability to accept to fail and to renounce to the summits.

would we like to have a clean mountaineering? I hope so.
so be able to u-turn and let something ''inviolated''...there is not an acceptable level of bolting!

In my opinion this should be our evolution...but does not means to destroy the past, at least not in an unilateral way...

I would like to show you the words of a great climber...what a man! what a bold ethics!:

''This arete will be climbed by someone that will use artificial methods,
I prefer to renounce''

Paul Preuss concerning the S arete of Aiguille Noire

cheers,
matteo.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 6, 2012 - 08:47am PT

Salvaterra's and Conti's positions might appear inconsistent. They expressed an opinion within a debate. When there was not yet a broad consensus.

I think that none of them simply liked the way the bolts were removed. Disregarding the opinion of a large part of the climbing community. I call this arrogance.

Here a recent interview with Salvaterra.

http://www.montagna.tv/cms/?p=38676

In the past he said several times that he wanted to remove the bolts, but he wanted to know Maestri's opinion first.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Feb 6, 2012 - 09:29am PT

Why be concerned with Maestri's opinion? We know his opinion about the 1959 route and that it isn't based on reality. I think Salveterra is just concerned given the fervor of Italian nationalism- which is a thing to behold. Maybe that's why my grandparents immigrated.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 6, 2012 - 09:39am PT

@donini

so it is the fact (your opinion) that Maestri is a liar that legitimate the unbolting, other routes cannot be unbolted only just because (you dont' think that) their authors are not liars?

is this the discriminant?

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 6, 2012 - 09:41am PT

Beliefs, sometimes are like little walls.
They are walls which protect our values and our identity. The problem is that sometimes, these walls may grow so thick and so high, like silos, that prevent to enlarge our horizon and understand things with a larger perspective.
Then belief undergo a metamorphosis and becomes fundamentalism.
This is what I thought when I read the Colin Haley’s comment on the KKK chopping.

I’ll just highlight some of the funny issues he mentioned in his blog.
http://colinhaley.blogspot.com/2011/02/cerro-torre-attempts.html

The unjustified hate against Maestri. Even if he lied, he credited Egger the merit of the ascent and we don’t know why he did it. It’s like to send to death penalty someone who killed for legitimate defence. Or even worse, to disrespect someone because has a different view on etics.

I simply don't have respect for liars. Maestri told the biggest lie in the history of climbing for the gain of his own reputation.
The fact that Maestri also vengefully showed the world the most heavy-handed climbing style it has ever seen - the epitome of the "murder of the impossible" - doesn't help him gain respect.

But his fear for denigration is just funny ...

Just because you disagree with my opinion doesn't mean you need to hate me or denigrate me personally.

The number of bolts without considering the weather circumstances, the Maestri’s ethical background, etc far from the actual technologies and standards.

It is difficult to comprehend the Compressor Route without seeing it in person - both in terms of the enormous quantity of Maestri's bolts, and in terms of the bolt ladders' locations, in close proximity to easily-protectable, easily-climbable terrain.

The hypocrisy of who preach “fair means” and a “clean mountain” but bring with himself a bolt kit for a new variante.

On both attempts we carried a small bolt kit which we thought we might use on the headwall, rationalizing that adding a few bolts to avoid a few hundred was a sound trade.

The disregard towards locals and other alpinists’ opinion.

I believe that Maestri's bolt ladders do not belong on Cerro Torre, so it really doesn't make any difference to me if they are removed by a Canadian, Argentinean or Cambodian climber, young or old climber

This is one of the silliest comments. I wonder for how many mountains of the world we can say they are compromised. But nobody is “crucified” in the way Garibotti, Haley and so on have being done.

For the 40 years that Maestri's bolt ladders were in place, Cerro Torre was a compromised mountain.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 6, 2012 - 09:42am PT

@donini

Well ... why should we be concerned with your opinion?

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Feb 6, 2012 - 09:43am PT

My opinion is based on being one of the first people to climb the Maestri/Egger route to the Col of Conquest. My opinion is based on fact not emotion. All I said was that Maestri's opinion should not be factored in. I said nothing about chopping bolts.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Feb 6, 2012 - 09:47am PT

Saw your post Enzolino. Regarding the controversy you need not be concerned about my opinion. Regarding the 1959 climb, if you care about things like facts, evidence and truth, you should be concerned about my opinion- apparently you don't.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 6, 2012 - 09:59am PT

My opinion is based on being one of the first people to climb the Maestri/Egger route to the Col of Conquest.

opinion the term is correct

My opinion is based on fact not emotion.

"based on" is not equivalent to "is a", so your opinion is based on facts you experienced as the opinion of everyone else in the world, nevertheless they are just only opinions as nobody is omnipresent and omniscient and the facts that he bases his opinion on are filtered by his perception

All I said was that Maestri's opinion should not be factored in. I said nothing about chopping bolts.

we were talking about chopping bolts or making chains of daisies? and you called Maestri a liar now and some 80 posts ago and calling him a liar is just an opinion not a fact so don't hide yourself behind your shadow

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Feb 6, 2012 - 10:08am PT

Maestri left a continuous trail of hardware and tat while climbing the beginning of the route and then suddenly did the rest of it clean - right, totally delusional.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 6, 2012 - 10:12am PT

@donini,
your opinion is based on the assumption that Maestri's memories were reliable. I cannot be 100 % sure that, after someone is swapt by an avalanche, found half dead on the glacier and having lost a friend, he can remember well what he experienced.
You didn't find consistent Maestri's description with what you saw, but this doesn't necessarily makes him a liar.
And because other people want to make more sense of Maestri's inconsistencies, they have the right to be more concern to Maestri's opinion than to yours.

And even if he lied, I don't think this is a sufficient reason to disrespect a person.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 6, 2012 - 10:14am PT

@healyje

maybe he lied or maybe the wall was covered with thick ice and the litter just went down with melting, nobody knows

as this game has ever been a gentleman game, before calling someone a liar some non circumstantial evidence should have been produced

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Feb 6, 2012 - 10:17am PT

Again, delusional. In this case I can only assume misplaced nationalism to be the cause - otherwise it's hard to know how to account for statements like this:

And even if he lied, I don't think this is a sufficient reason to disrespect a person.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 6, 2012 - 10:18am PT

@Randisi

I know that very well, try to say it to Donini that pretends to teach us about reality

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 6, 2012 - 10:22am PT

@healyje

Again, delusional. In this case I can only assume misplaced nationalism to be the cause - otherwise it's hard to know how to account for statements like this:

Let's see if you get it.
Someone steal a chicken to feed the starving family.
Someone steal a chicken because he hates his neighbour.

Do you put them at the same level?

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 6, 2012 - 10:23am PT

@enzolino

And even if he lied, I don't think this is a sufficient reason to disrespect a person.

this time I have to agree with healyje, if he lied I would disrespect him (but not unbolt his route for this reason)

to me the point is not guilty until proof of evidence. evidences that Donini confuses with (his) opinions, apparently

TwistedCrank

climber

Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom

Feb 6, 2012 - 10:23am PT

If someone is a liar, that says heaps more about their character than how badass a climber the are. Or were.

The evidence against CM is overwhelming unfortunately.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 6, 2012 - 10:30am PT

The evidence against CM is overwhelming unfortunately.

in which court?

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 6, 2012 - 10:31am PT

Donini's observations some years after 1959, climbing where Maestri should have climbed 1959, are more than just opinions. Dionini's observations indicates something, but they are not proof.

Also Maestri claiming to have climbed the route first time (1959) and then having to bolts his way to the top second time is more than just opinion and indicates something. No proof though.

Edited: My intention saying this is to say that observations are much stronger than just opinions, but that they do not prove that Maestri lied. If you ask me about my opinion... well...

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 6, 2012 - 10:35am PT

@Marlow

pay attention in what you say or you'll become an "italian nationalist" honoris causa :-)

TwistedCrank

climber

Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom

Feb 6, 2012 - 10:36am PT

in which court?

This one.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 6, 2012 - 10:39am PT

in which court?

This one.

oh, I thought you were serious

house of cards

climber

Feb 6, 2012 - 10:41am PT

Both Salvaterra and Conti were clearly in favor of the bolt removal. I can appreciate that they disagree with how it was done, but they must take responsibility for having in part motivated the act.

What has Alex Huber said on the matter? anything?
this is what he said a few years back:

"Alla fine un altro tipo di progetto mi stimolerebbe comunque molto di piu: per essempio eliminare la serie de chiodi a espansione di Maestri, cosi indegna di questa fantastica montagna. Un Cerro Torre liberato del compressore tornerebbe a essere un traguardo autentico. E senza pensare all'arrampicata libera, l'ascensione in se sarebbe una sfida piu che sufficiente"
(page 288, Cerro Torre Mito della Patagonia, by Tom Dauer, originally published in german in 2004)

Rough translation: He is talking about free climbing the Compressor route and explains: "In the end I come to the conclusion that another kind of project would motivate me much more, for example taking out Maestri's bolts, so "undeserving" in a fantastic mountain like this one. A Cerro Torre without the compressor would go back to being an authentic challenge. Without even thinking of free climbing an ascent would be a more that deserving challenge". May be Uli or Enzolino can do a better job translating.

I know that last year Alex also expressed similar views in Desnivel, but I dont have the quotes with me.

So, Huber, Salvaterra, Conti, all in favor of taking the bolts out, at least before it happened.
Is the older generation not accountable for their own words? They were sending the Kennedys and Kruks some pretty clear messages.

TwistedCrank

climber

Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom

Feb 6, 2012 - 10:43am PT

oh, I thought you were serious

I am serious.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 6, 2012 - 10:44am PT

@TwistedCrank

If someone is a liar, that says heaps more about their character than how badass a climber the are. Or were.

The evidence against CM is overwhelming unfortunately.

Well ... I agree that the evidence against Maestri are overwhelming. However, until that claimed achievement, Maestri's previous accomplishments were witnessed by other climbers and his integrity was undisputable.

So, if I have to be honest this issue puzzles me. If he didn't credit Egger for the merit of climb CT in 1959, I would have believed that he lied just for his ego. But it was not the case.

The reasons why he climbed CT with another style and on another face, has already been explained several times.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 6, 2012 - 10:56am PT

@house of cards

the same Huber that expansion bolted routes on Dolomites?

I see were you are aiming to, so you think that part of the responsability should be laid upon the shoulders of them who spoke about unbolting rather than upon those who actually did the action.

I agree, what about Garibotti as the main instigator?

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 6, 2012 - 11:00am PT

@TwistedCrank

so you're serious and this is a court, could you please tell me which is the penalty for being an as.h.le?

TwistedCrank

climber

Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom

Feb 6, 2012 - 11:02am PT

so you're serious and this is a court, could you please tell me which is the penalty for being an as.h.le?

It's not a penalty. It's a badge of honor.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 6, 2012 - 11:04am PT

@Randisi

fair enough, so I print all this s.it and mail it to CM and you do the same with K&K

WBraun

climber

Feb 6, 2012 - 11:07am PT

Normal people move on either climb it or fix it.

Drama queens just keep on spinning around in their heads and babbling endlessly doing nothing .....

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 6, 2012 - 11:10am PT

@Randisi

sorry, I was joking

anyway I understand that misunderstendment can be an issue: being called "italian nationalist" quite make me throw up the lunch

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 6, 2012 - 11:11am PT

Thank you to WBraun for being a babbling dramaqueen... Everyone contributes as best he can.

Healyje
In my opinion I am not a misplaced Italian nationalist, though you may have some facts concerning my case that I am not aware of?

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 6, 2012 - 11:19am PT

The one person who may have benefited most from the bolt removal is David Lama.

used the 8mm holes for pinkies :D

TwistedCrank

climber

Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom

Feb 6, 2012 - 11:29am PT

It made his free ascent all the more impressive.

It might have been more impressive without the K&K "fair means" claim.

Standing on the shoulders of giants, and all that. NTTAWWI

house of cards

climber

Feb 6, 2012 - 11:56am PT

@uli

yes, of course, Garibotti has done his share of "instigating", with his 2007 R+I article and his comments in this thread. Other than Josh Wharton and Zack Smith, a number of other climbers had been discussing this openly: Colin Haley, Bjorn-Eivind Artun, etc. Amongst "seasoned" climbers there has always been a lot of support for the chopping, although clearly there was/is more support in North America and the UK than in continental Europe. I think that there are obvious cultural and historical differences that account for that. There are countless routes like the Compressor in the Dolomites, with bolt ladders from bottom to top, so it is not surprising that Italians dont find the Compressor route offensive. Clearly that is not the case in North America or the UK.

My point was that it is unfortunate at best that Conti and Salvaterra back pedaled. It does not make them look very good.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Feb 6, 2012 - 12:03pm PT

Werner sees drama queens, but I see something truly laudable.

We are having a real time relatively polite argument over culture and the importance of history vs the challenge of our sport across the globe and between some highly knowledgeable and experienced players.

I think it is terrific.

We could smooth out the process a bit with some better translation help, but nonetheless I think this is very cool.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Feb 6, 2012 - 12:28pm PT

You guys on the other side of the Pond blow my mind. You so much want to believe Maesri no evidence will convince you that he lied. I was pro Maestri until I actually DID the climb and viewed the evidence. If you don't believe me get your asses off of the couch and GO over to CT and climb the route and see for youself. Arm chair climbers are a dime a dozen.

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 6, 2012 - 01:20pm PT

Donini

Talking as a guy "on the other side of the Pond": Your mind is blown too easily. I have no need to believe anyone, maybe except you as an observer. LOL...

Evidence would have convinced me. As it is, based on the observations/indications my best hypothesis is that Maestri didn't tell the truth, as a conscious act or not.

Your observations are as close as anyone will ever get to evidence unless Maestri himself speaks. If I got my ass off of the couch and WENT to CT to see I would never be able to get better observations than you got. There is no problem concerning your credibility as an observer.

I have no problem being "dime a dozen" as long as my mind is clear.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Feb 6, 2012 - 01:33pm PT

Marlow, hard to imagine what would pass for 'truth' for you...

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Feb 6, 2012 - 01:47pm PT

There is plenty of evidence that Maestri didn't complete the 1959 climb. There is NO evidence that he did. What is proof if not the weight of the evidence?

And besides, what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Also, spectacular claims require spectacular evidence.

If evidence is unimportant, then what is to stop me from claiming all sorts of first ascents? (You doubt me? You are questioning my honour? Yes.)

Maestri's Compressor Route is essentially physical proof, beyond reasonable doubt, that the 1959 attempt was a farce. If you want to demonstrate a claim, you must repeat the action in the claim, not perform a different action. Why didn't he just repeat the 1959 route? He would have known the bivy locations, the way of the route, and how to descend. Instead he decided to repeat a different route that had already been attempted by a strong British team (so there was ACTUAL beta for that route, not just vague imaginary descriptions of endless thin, moderate ice). He followed someone else's route, didn't summit, and STILL claimed it for himself, in the process of providing no evidence to support his original claim. He had now claimed two routes on Cerro Torre, despite having never gone to the top. And, on top of all that, just to add a character reference, Maestri was a nasty bitter shrew whenever confronted with any of this information. And, since there is no evidence of the 1959 climb, the honesty of his character is the only thing supporting that claim. And it turns out he has the character of a combative child, and it seems doubtful that he can speak honestly about anything, let alone his claims to fame. Has anyone ever given a nastier interview about their great life-defining feat?

If he had really intended to prove his 1959 claims, he would have launched expeditions to repaeta the 1959 route and/or find Egger's body and camera (and bring it home with dignity), not bolt a via ferrata up the headwall (as that demonstrates NOTHING about his previous attempt, except for his wholesale conversion from alpine to siege style).

The obvious reason he didn't attempt to repeat the 1959 route was that he knew he could never climb it. His overwhelming hybris could not allow such a result as total failure.

We speak of the "murder of the impossible" and of the death of fair means, but those are abstract concepts. What of the death of Egger and the circumstances surrounding it? If Maestri's other claims regarding the 1959 climb are false, why would he be telling the truth about what happened to Egger? There is evidence that they did not agree about climbing strategy (Egger favored single alpine push, Maestri wanted to fix more rope). There is evidence that Maestri has a very volatile temper. Clearly, Egger fell from the mountain, that is true. But when a real man falls out of a cartoon, what are we supposed to believe?

Maybe Maestri thinks about that a lot.

Fava knows what happened up there. Doesn't want to talk about it. Why not?

Uli, Monaco, and Enzolino repeatedly defend Maestri's honour, even while admitting his probable lack of honesty. Why are they doing this? Because he's "old"? Why are they so personally invested in maintaining his folly? Are they respecting history? As Colin Haley pointed out, where's their respect for the real history of the SE ridge British attempt that Maestri originally retrobolted? And then they frame their argument to polarize Italians against Americans, which I suppose is a side effect of nationality, but really has nothing to do with the Cerro Torre controversy and really just dilutes the pertinent information in this thread and makes everyone feel bad and defensive. Meanwhile, nobody gives a f>ck about Toni Egger, and nobody talks about defending his honor or memory. He was denied his rightful opportunity to be an old, fake, bitter liar along with Maestri. Or maybe he would have told the truth and that was the big problem. For better or worse, his name is hitched to the legacy of Maestri. From a historical perspective, doesn't Egger's memory deserve better? Maestri has had many opportunities to address the inconsistencies of the case, but willfully refuses to be civil or to specifically respond to the evidence against him. For all the valid points raised by Uli, Monaco, Enzolino, and others who seem like otherwise reasonable people, their blind allegiance to Maestri is baffling. With such a great tradition of European alpinism, and so many truly inspiring climbers to idolize, this is your hero? This is history? This is who you spend your energy defending? Is this an example to hold up to the world and say "An Italian proudly made this in error, and it must therefore stay forever!"

For those of us who value nature, adventure, human spirit, and teamwork over industry, conquest, dominance, and ego, your tired defense of Maestri will never gain traction, only polarize us further. Even if the camera were found, and indeed provided proof of the 1959 Cerro Torre summit, whereas we would all eat our words about that ascent, it would not at all justify the abomination of the Compressor Route.

Someone (can't remember who) posted that the pro-chopping crowd has an irrational, religious-like belief in some impossible ideal. I would turn that assertion around and say that Maestri's defenders are much more religious, having blind faith in ridiculous magical events that have no evidence in reality and in fact perpetuate a pernicious tradition of man subjugating nature to his own narrow interest, specifically for the achievement of his own glorified immortality. And they will go to war over these disputed events, even while admitting the fundamental claims should not be taken literally. Sounds exactly like religion to me.

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 6, 2012 - 02:02pm PT

I don't see Uli, Monaco and Enzolino as typical Italian history writers. My opinion is that neither am I up north. What I see is that there is a difference in the way we look at what should be taken for evidence and to what degree doubt should come the the advantage of the one "investigated".

Italian history writing has traditionally had some problems. Bonatti was for a long time one of it's "victims".

Lacedelli and Cenacchi: K2 The Price of Conquest

"To discover what was missing it would have been enough to question the witnesses. The problem is that nothing that has been said or written about K2 has ever been subjected to a rigorous historical interpretation, and most of the witnesses have never been questioned.

The only people who have been heard are those involved in the arguments, and then only when those arguments were actually in progress. As a consequence, it was not possible to get past the arguments.

This is a recurring problem in the way we Italians confront our recent past. Rarely do we consider history as an institutional or cultural question. On the contrary, we tend to think of it as a question of personal opinion, or worse, a private event of no concern to the general public. The consequence is that it is hard to make historical judgements, because these tend to be seen only as personal judgements. In order to write an account of the past, we have to wait until someone dies, someone forgets or someone loosens up. Only then, and with the blessing of the heirs, but still with the risk of being taken to court for libel, can we confront things"

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Feb 6, 2012 - 02:10pm PT

Marlow

Nice. Thanks for the explanatory post. Clearly some cultural difference at work.

Once Maestri dies, he can be properly buried. but not yet.

Egger is dead already though, and he wasn't Italian, so feel free to confront his past.

@fattrad: Italy's socialist policies are among its best assets. Quit lobbing non sequitir political grenades into our debate chamber. It's not a contribution, just an irritant.

klk

Trad climber

cali

Feb 6, 2012 - 02:17pm PT

anders, re grand wall, we could do another thread. early 1960s was indeed still an experimental period for expansion bolts. the bolting on lower grand was one of the failed experiments and far less likely to have happened, in, say yosemite at the time. it could happen in squamish precisely because squamish was a backwater.

neither the alternative cracks nor the 4th class ledge system to what became mercy me --nor that line of holds --were obscure features at the time, regardless of how different the veg may've been.

in any case, as i said before, neither this nor the infamous comici routes in the dolos are exact equivalents to maestri's compressor route.

fwiw, i think perry did the right thing in moving chunks of the ladder over to protect the newer OW free variation. i've never been on the compressor route, so it's not clear to me if what k&k did is analagous or not.

klk

Trad climber

cali

Feb 6, 2012 - 02:18pm PT

fat trad-- this thread is inevitably getting snarky. but yr post is remarkably idiotic even by the standards of this thread, and you should remove it.

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 6, 2012 - 02:19pm PT

Snorky

You say: "Egger is dead already though, and he wasn't Italian, so feel free to speculate about him."

Now you're reading my post as the devil reads the bible. Edited: Interpreting it in the worst possible sense, that is.

My speculation supported by observations and reasoning is as I have already said that Mastri didn't tell the truth, consciously or not. But the doubt that is left I let come to Maestri's advantage. You see your speculation as truth and the doubt that is left you look away from.

Egger was a brave climber deserving respect. I will let him rest in peace.

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Feb 6, 2012 - 02:20pm PT

this thread is inevitably getting snarky

inevitably getting snorky.

couldn't resist

Egger was a brave climber deserving respect. I will let him rest in peace.

Yes. Absolutely. But he's resting in Maestri's dark shadow, not in peace.

As far as how to award the points of doubt: Yes, I am a skeptic. Zero points for doubt. You say "But the doubt that is left I let come to Maestri's advantage." OK fine. But if you believe Maestri didn't tell the truth, what doubt is left?

I like the phrase about the devil reading the bible. That is how I read it.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Feb 6, 2012 - 02:36pm PT

Marlow, Marlow, Marlow....there is no doubt, Maestri did not climb Cerro Torre in 1976. Thus, he lied and, given that fact, his climb in 1971 reeks of hubris, arrogance and cynicism.

edit: Also, be mindful of his attempts at character assassination of fellow Italian Bonatti.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Feb 6, 2012 - 02:40pm PT

Snorky, Egger can rest in peace. He was dead long before the lies that besmirch the climb he was on started. I found his remains the year before I did Torre Egger. The mountain that bears his name is a fitting reminder of Toni's place in climbing.

bmacd

Mountain climber

100% Canadian

Feb 6, 2012 - 02:51pm PT

We speak of the "murder of the impossible" and of the death of fair means, but those are abstract concepts. What of the death of Egger and the circumstances surrounding it? If Maestri's other claims regarding the 1959 climb are false, why would he be telling the truth about what happened to Egger? There is evidence that they did not agree about climbing strategy (Egger favored single alpine push, Maestri wanted to fix more rope). There is evidence that Maestri has a very volatile temper. Clearly, Egger fell from the mountain, that is true. But when a real man falls out of a cartoon, what are we supposed to believe?

Oh wow, so you are saying Maestri may have killed Egger ?

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Feb 6, 2012 - 02:58pm PT

I don't know Jim

Egger's story will never be told. Don't ya think he would chime in here in this forum if he could? Do you think he would corroborate Maestri's story?

It's sad. A Google search for Toni Egger pretty much just turns up this Cerro Torre stuff. Very very little info about his hard face climbs in the Andes for example. All of his accomplishments have been overshadowed by his participation in what has become the biggest ever blemish in the ethics of climbing mountains.

Maestri went on to be alternately celebrated and vilified, but with a comfortable life. Egger, meanwhile, was churned up by a glacier, along with his story. He was unable to say what happened, let alone goodbye to his loved ones, and then had his name represented by an ongoing lie perpetuated by the very guy who survived and profited from Egger's difficult and ultimately fatal efforts, and meanwhile his own legitimate feats fall into obscurity despite his famous name. I'd be rolling over.

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 6, 2012 - 02:59pm PT

Donini

Judged by his own standards I think the conclusion would have been clear - assassination. As I see it though, our responsibility is to judge him by our own standards.

The thread has drifted away from it's main theme - the chopping of the bolts. Is it intended?

The cases should be discussed separately - 1. the chopping, 2. the bolting, 3. the summiting 1959. It is three different cases not a single soup.

Snorky

You have got a speculative mind. Let Egger go.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Feb 6, 2012 - 03:10pm PT

Marlow, there is a relationship to the main theme. A lot of people here are using the historical argument for preservation of the CR. My argument is that since Maestri lied about the 1959 route, the CR was put up with arrogance and cynicism and has no credible place in climbing history. Regarding chopping the route, I have always felt that was a local matter that should be handled by the Argentinians.

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Feb 6, 2012 - 03:27pm PT

Oh wow, so you are saying Maestri may have killed Egger ?

No evidence for that. But the whole thing is super sketch. Heated tempers often lead to hasty mistakes. Communication errors, rope mismanagement, fistfights. The point he is: He didn't climb it, someone died, he lied. It's good TV.

Three years ago I climbed a new route on CT that I can't really describe and have no photos of and my partner and I fought like devils. If you don't believe me I will rebolt the Compressor Route to prove it.

I'm letting go of Egger now. R.I.P.

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 6, 2012 - 03:42pm PT

Focus: The shopping

Perspectives/arguments:

Contra: the bolted route chopped was a close to 40 years old historical route (the history argument).

Pro: the route chopped was at the time bolted in arrogance without local consensus (the non-justified bolting argument)

Pro: the route was chopped as a reaction to "the atrocity" and "rape" committed by Maestri and the act of chopping is comparable to tearing down the Berlin wall (the heroic saviours argument).

Contra: the route was chopped in "aggression" without having a basis in serious ethical thinking, the ethical thinking mainly comes afterwards as a bleak after-justification (the argument of ethical superficiality)

Contra: the route chopped was chopped without consensus among the locals (the local consensus argument)

Pro: the route chopped was chopped by excellent climbers (the CT elite user argument)

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Feb 6, 2012 - 03:46pm PT

There's nothing particularly "heroic" about taking out the trash, nor does the chore require "saviours" to accomplish it.

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Feb 6, 2012 - 03:47pm PT

Contra: The Compressor Route was the only way I was ever going to get up Cerro Torre (the access for regular climbers argument)

Pro: The bolt ladders caused tunnel vision that prevented a generation of climbers from discovering a reasonable alternative using minimal bolts. (The bolts stole the future argument)

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 6, 2012 - 04:07pm PT

Healyje

As far as I have seen "the atrocity", "the rape" and comparing the chopping to tearing down "the Berlin wall" were the words of the choppers and used to jusify their deed. This argument can be seen as extremely arrogant, more arrogant than anything I have heard from Maestri (he did not claim to have bolted to get nearer to some higher almost "religious" goal).

While I can see no ethical thinking at all going on during Maestri's bolting, I think the ethical thinking of K&K is superficial and like Maestri there is an aggressive component in their thinking and their actions.

When it comes to the local consensus argument both Maestri and K&K have failed.

In my view both Maestri and K&K have failed and they should be forgiven.

The important question is the future of bolting and chopping.

monaco

climber

marseille (FR) - parma (IT)

Feb 6, 2012 - 04:11pm PT

@ Snorky

I would suggest you to re-read my posts.
I'd never assert that Maestri didn't lie about the ascent of 1959.
I'd never state that the compressor route is what I consider the correct way of mountaineering.
I'd never approved the compressor route...neither the five bolts and belays used by KKK...this is not my alpinism

I asked more respect for an old man, that made great errors...climbing and maybe human errors, that nevertheless climbed during his youth in an impressive manner (he was not only a bolt-climber but also one of the stronger free and solo climber of his time) and that now is old.

I think that everyone of us can judge strictly Maestri's action on Cerro Torre...nevertheless I think that state ''Maestri insanity'' is at least not polite, not class and definetly irrespectful.

please remember that alpinism is a mere game...I think that such sharp judgement (insanity!!??) should be reserved for other more important things

I stated more than one time that I would agree the bolt chopping 30/40 years ago...not now.
doing this now, without a large consensus, is, in my opinion, not correct.

I tried to explain the (probable) cultural differences between the ''old'' and the ''new'' world that make so different the ''feeling'' of what is historical (also bad things...also for people like me that NEVER approved the compressor route and this kind of alpinism)

I would like to see the same rules applied all around the world...cerro chopped? let's chop all the bolt ladders.
there are not ''unavoidable'' bolts that are necessary to connect crack systems...this is the best example of murdering of impossible.
bold ethics means to be capable of renoncing...are we ready?

why no one of you (american, canadian, european, italian) gave me an aswer to my question on 1/10/100 bolts and the importance of real ''fair means''?

are we flirting with our ambitions/egos adapting the rules of the games to our present capability?

cheers,
matteo.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Feb 6, 2012 - 04:28pm PT

I would have more respect for Maestri if he admitted his past errors instead of arrogantly defending his claims. I understand being old, I'm 68, but I don't think that should lead to unqualified forgiveness.

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Feb 6, 2012 - 04:32pm PT

Correct me if I'm wrong Marlow, but I believe Monaco is invoking the "history" argument, the the "local consensus" argument", and the "respect old people" argument.

Is the history argument connected to the respect old people argument? That is, if CR had been chopped 30 years ago, when Maestri was not old, would it have been OK to disrespect him by chopping the bolts at that time? Or would it have been OK because they weren't historic yet?

There's a lot of insanity in alpinism. It's not a game at all. There is no score. People die. People don't risk death for bowling, darts, and cards. You don't get better at it when you drink beer, so it's simply not a game.

Agree. Let's chop all the bolt ladders. At least in roadless areas.

What's your 1/10/100 bolts question? Why have an all-or-nothing approach? Even Preuss pounded in a few pitons when it was practical. Use minimal bolts on the most natural lines. If better passage is found nearby, remove the old bolts at once.

"are we flirting with our ambitions/egos adapting the rules of the games to our present capability?" Yes. I strive to do better.

monaco

climber

marseille (FR) - parma (IT)

Feb 6, 2012 - 04:39pm PT

@ donini

he is 80 year old...do you think that the worse parts of our personality usually get better with age?
If I look to my father, my grand-father...and to myself...sadly I say ''no''...

it is late...late for him to ''admit'' (note...I'm arguing)
and also late for bolt chopping

why don't we simply do better than bad things instead of impose our ideas?

it is strange for me to state that...I always fight with a lot of passion and, now I think, eccesive effort against any kind of bolting...

I'm reflecting...and I think that ''wars'' are never useful...it is important to teach ''culture''.
imposing actions does not produce culture...only focalizes people on their own ''truth''.
producing culture (it is my real work...beyond alpinism) is a slow and tiring process, but I am more and more convinced that is the only way to spread a better style of alpinism.

messner climbed fantastic routes and produce culture...did not start real bolt-wars.
I think this is the way to follow.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Feb 6, 2012 - 04:41pm PT

Marlow, it's a simple proposition - removing the bolts restores respect for what CT was and is. Everything else is as strange a rationalization as Maestri's in 1970. That pretty well sums up the arguments for removing them, On the other hand there are a half dozen of arguments for why they should stay - commercialization, history, locals, etc. and all depend on and result in the blight remaining in place.

monaco: it is late...late for him to ''admit'' (note...I'm arguing)
and also late for bolt chopping

It's never too late for either - to suggest or claim Maestri couldn't come clean at this point says it all...

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Feb 6, 2012 - 04:44pm PT

In many ways I feel sorry for Cesare. He got himself into a corner from which he could not extricate himself and, given human nature, probably now believes his story to be true.

All of us, being human, are far from perfect. Forgiveness is probably the best course, especially for our own well being.

monaco

climber

marseille (FR) - parma (IT)

Feb 6, 2012 - 04:50pm PT

@ snorky

the age of Maetri and the ''age'' of compressor route are not correlated.

I said ''Maestri is old, climbing is a game...so please use world that are less strong than insanity''

concerning the age of compressor route I always said that chopping the route 30/40 year ago would be an ethical reaction to a (strongly) disputable action...

...chopping the route now is removing something that, in italy we say ''nel bene e nel male'' (literally ''during good and bads times''...but the real meaning is ''independently of our will''), is part of the climbing history (we can agree that is a sad page of this history).

I hope that I've been more clear :)

concerning alpinism as a game...you can say that is a dangerous game, but it is a useless activity...it is still a game, a game for (not totally sane ;-))) ) adult people.

if you carefully read the article of messner you can see that also ONE bolt ''kills the dragon''.
we are not forced to climb a wall...we must learn to renonce.

as in all the games (useless activities) the rules are the most important things.
and rules must be clear and not ''avoidable''.
who is that decide the ''acceptable amount of bolts''? the players during the game...too easy!!!!

the nature (rock conformation) must be the only one to decide for us...cracks, pockets means protections...slab means climb or u-turn.

this was the main ethics in Dolomiti after the questionable ''direttisima era''. simple, clear and bold.

nevertheless people had not destroied the old directissimas...

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 6, 2012 - 05:01pm PT

Monaco

You say: "I'm reflecting...and I think that ''wars'' are never useful...it is important to teach ''culture''. Imposing actions do not produce culture...only focalize people on their own ''truth''."

My comment: Polarization is the highest step of the conflict ladder and seldom a good thing. I agree. But some young guys love to fight and some old men love that in them.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 7, 2012 - 12:36am PT

People talk a lot of bullshit here.
What many among us don't like, is the lynching attitude based on summary judgments.

I'll make a list of summary judgements from the climbing world concerning issues of the past:

Messner accused of abandoning his brother after the climb of Nanga Parbat

Bonatti considered responsible for two tragedies in Mt Blanc (Freney and Vicendon&Henry)

Bonatti accused of having used oxygen, which was necessary for the final ascent on K2 (all alpinists except the alpine club hierarchy believed him)

Messner climb on the Sass della Crusc (7a - 5.12a expo in 1968)too much ahead for that time and no proof of the ascent

Perhaps you like to lynch people.
I don't.
Perhaps you have so much anger and hate inside that you need to send someone to the gallows.
I don't.
And I think, for what I read, Maestri is a man with humanity and honor and is too easy to crucify him because of the inconsistency of his account and hi outrageous style used on the Compressor route.
Snorky, before talking bullshit about Maestri's consideration towards Egger, read his books and check out the routes he dedicated to Toni Egger.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 7, 2012 - 03:07am PT

@house of cards

"There are countless routes like the Compressor in the Dolomites, with bolt ladders from bottom to top, so it is not surprising that Italians dont find the Compressor route offensive."

No, there are countless routes with bolt ladder sections, I don't know any that is from bottom to top, the main difference between Italian bolt ladders and american ones is that the pressure pins of the '50-'60 are still there: they have not been systematically replaced by modern expansion bolts as, I beleive, on the nose and many other. The original expansion pins are mostly (and precariously) still there

My point was that it is unfortunate at best that Conti and Salvaterra back pedaled. It does not make them look very good.

My point is that is unfortunate at best that MOST of instigators (including Garibotti) DID use LIGHT and EASY hardware to DRILL rock and put EXPANSION BOLTS on CT or elsewere doesn't matter much.

It is also unfortunate that those insitgators, for years, did just only speak and never act, waiting for kids to do the dirty work for them

this is, to be kind, hypocrisy of the worst kind

@snorky
sorry there is a lower level of moronicity under which I don't even bother to answer

@coz
hat down

PS1 The sad thing in this whole story is to be (mistakenly) consiederd an italian nationalist, a defensor of Maestri's honorability, a believer of every word in his account of '59, defensor of drills and aid climbing, and nothinglessthan and history rewriter, only because

I do not call Maestri guilt of lying upon, at best, circumstantial evidence

I do not like THE WAY in which the bolting on compressor route has been "refactored"

I do have more than one bit in my brain and can, believe it or not, conceive to both diskile the bolting by Maestri and the unbolting by the kids

PS2 foradaiball, being banned from here, sent me an email with the following text that he prays me to post untranslated, and so I do

1. la salita della torre egger di alcune settimane fa' sembrava impossibile: fatta, velocemente e tranquillamente, e non so se sono i migliori ghiacciatori al mondo quelli, non mi pare

2. siete sicuri che quella parete non era veramente uno scivolo di neve ghiacciata, quando c'era su Maestri ?

3. se lo era, non c'era bisogno di chiodare nel granito per assicurare; ovvio non era cosa da tutti, ma da gente forte e fuori di testa. Quelli che contestano questa salita, sono i migliori al mondo di oggi o della loro epoca ? No ? Bene, Maestri su roccia ed Egger su ghiaccio lo erano, e in quelle condizioni potevano farcela, loro, voi sicuramente no

4. chi può credere, che tutte queste illazioni e contestazioni non siano fatte per invidia/rabbia/vendetta nei confronti di Maestri ? L'unico che sprezzante, avanzava come un bulldozer, che ci ha sempre messo la faccia e non si è mai tirato indietro davanti a niente. Non poteva certo essere simpatico alla concorrenza. Che contro di lui ha sempre perso. Quelli che dicono che di sicuro Maestri non è salito, sono solo dei poveri nerds, dei perdenti, dei senza palle, che non sanno riconoscere la forza di chi li ha battuti. Salendo il Cerro Torre anni ed anni prima, umiliandoli e polverizzandoli.

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA

Feb 7, 2012 - 03:36am PT

I seem to remember an American climber who did a lot of bolting in Yosemite.

-He took 58 days to force a route up El Capitan

-He drilled a 200+ foot bolt ladder on blank rock to make a first ascent on the Leaning Tower

-He tried to bolt his way up the south face of Half Dome, but had to be rescued

-He drilled 300+ bolts to put up a first ascent on El Capitan

He was considered a living legend and his death was mourned by the entire climbing community.

My point is that you might be upset at Maestri because you feel he lied about his 1959 ascent of Cerro Torre, but even we Americans have climbers who have done a lot of what some might consider forced lines that were overbolted. However, they were ultimately accepted and welcomed into our climbing community.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 7, 2012 - 04:59am PT

There is a famous case where the claims of a climber were not consistent to what other people witnessed: Tomo Cesen.

Among his claimed achievements a lot of doubts have been raised, especially towards his solo ascent of No Siesta in Grand Jorasses, North Face of Jannu and Lothse South face .

I wonder why so much fierceness against Maestri, just because his claims were not consistent with what other people found?

Adopting Donini's nasty ethical standards I would ask Mr Donini.
Why so much hate?
Are you envious of something?
Did Maestri hurt you or offend you?

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 7, 2012 - 05:16am PT

@bhilden,

Nice and honest post!!!

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 7, 2012 - 05:59am PT

Enzolino

I don't see the nasty ethical standards you see in Mr Donini. I don't see hate and I don't see envy.

My suggestion:
Accept Donini's observations on CT. They are a valuable part of CT history. But you don't have to accept the conclusions Donini draws based on his observations. His observations are as close as we ever get to observable facts as long as Maestri doesn't speak, but Donini's conclusions based on the observable facts are not evidence beyond every possible doubt. My view is that we should let the small amount of possible doubt that remains talk to Maestri's advantage. That doesn't mean that we have to accept that Maestri and Egger summited. The degree of consciousness argument could be applied.

In my view attacking Donini for having nasty ethical standards is adding to the polarizing polemics that we see at times in this thread.

A good post from Bhilden.

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 7, 2012 - 06:08am PT

Randisi

Facing death we are all impoverished nerds.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 7, 2012 - 06:19am PT

@randisi

even if foradaiball asked me not to translate you have ever been polite and so here it is

Quelli che dicono che di sicuro Maestri non è salito, sono solo dei poveri nerds, dei perdenti, dei senza palle, che non sanno riconoscere la forza di chi li ha battuti.

"those who affirm that surely Maestri didn't summit are only poor nerds, loosers, "ballsless"? that can't acknowledge the force of whom preceded them there"

(this translation is not my own thinking on that matter)

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 7, 2012 - 06:53am PT

I don't see the nasty ethical standards you see in Mr Donini. I don't see hate and I don't see envy.
@Marlow,

My suggestion:
Accept Donini's observations on CT. They are a valuable part of CT history. But you don't have to accept the conclusions Donini draws based on his observations. His observations are as close as we ever get to observable facts as long as Maestri doesn't speak, but Donini's conclusions based on the observable facts are not evidence beyond every possible doubt. My view is that we should let the small amount of possible doubt that remains talk to Maestri's advantage. That doesn't mean that we have to accept that Maestri and Egger summited. The degree of consciousness argument could be applied.

In my view attacking Donini for having nasty ethical standards is adding to the polarizing polemics that we see at times in this thread.

A good post from Bhilden.

Bhilden highlighted implicitely the double standard used for Warren Harding vs Cesare Maestri.
Personally I don't believe Donini's observations are free from emotional detachment, and I think that they are excessively nasty. This is my view. I don't care if the polemic will escalate.

Now a new document has been published where the KKK chopping has been heavily criticized.
THE TALEBANS OF CERRO TORRE

http://www.planetmountain.com/News/shownews1.lasso?l=1&keyid=39126

In few days has been signed by many Italian climbers including top climbers and alpine guides.

Maybe there is only one positive aspect in this whole story. That climbing is less than ever a local affair and that globalization is affecting the vertical world more than ever. Let's see what is gonna happen.
Possibly the document will be translated in english and will collect more signatures from all over the world.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 7, 2012 - 08:03am PT

@enzolino

Possibly the document will be translated in english and will collect more signatures from all over the world.

here it is

http://alpinesketches.wordpress.com/2012/02/07/taliban-on-cerro-torre/

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Feb 7, 2012 - 09:19am PT

Calling the cleanup crew Taliban is pretty funny given the absolute fanaticism necessary to defend Maestri and his indefensible bolts.

The cad

climber

Does it matter, really?!?

Feb 7, 2012 - 09:19am PT

@randisi
You decide

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Feb 7, 2012 - 10:31am PT

If they had chopped a bolt ladder in the USA put up by an American, would even a single person in Italy give a flying f*ck? Much less formulate some ridiculous petition with laughable comparisons to the Taliban.

The cad

climber

Does it matter, really?!?

Feb 7, 2012 - 10:49am PT

LOL
If some <name a nationality> had chopped a bolt ladder anywhere in the world put up by an American, how many Americans would support the chopping?

Pointless.

tarek

climber

berkeley

Feb 7, 2012 - 10:57am PT

Vilifying Maestri or K&K seems an avoidance of the main issue: do we hold anything sacred in the natural world? It seems only a distraction to focus on the actors here. To Cerro Torre, it's irrelevant who did what, who lied, who summited.

I guess it's not the least bit surprising that this is more and more about personalities, and less and less about CT. What about the concept of simply restoring one of the world's most spectacular mountains to a pristine state? Strip it of all fixed gear and bolts, just to start clean? Maybe climbers could grow into this idea--shedding the past without argument. Not as part of any standard, just because it is possible as a symbol in a world of disaster. Maybe in 50 years the standard for CT will be no fixed gear and base off the top.

Back to reality, either the would-be restorers (the whole group) should continue, and finish the job they barely started, or the other side should put a minimum of bomber bolts back in some of the holes and clean climb the rest. If the re-bolters also patched holes, they'd probably gain the upper hand in any restoration debate.

The cad

climber

Does it matter, really?!?

Feb 7, 2012 - 10:59am PT

@Randisi
Your answer is perfect also for BS question :)

tarek

climber

berkeley

Feb 7, 2012 - 11:07am PT

DMT, it's also religion to take the POV of what others consider an inanimate object...not a small proportion of the world's population might "see" CT as a being on some level...
So, yeah, it's all religion.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Feb 7, 2012 - 11:08am PT

Back to reality, either the would-be restorers (the whole group) should continue, and finish the job they barely started.

Barely? 100+ bolts is way, way ahead of 'barely'. The job should definitely be finished with the holes patched.

tarek

climber

berkeley

Feb 7, 2012 - 11:12am PT

Compare the work involved in, at most, a few hammer blows per bolt (as all have reported) with the job of patching the holes on one of the world's burliest routes...

throwpie

Trad climber

Berkeley

Feb 7, 2012 - 02:05pm PT

http://tubeguide.tv/matt-segal-trad-climbing-on-china-doll-514/1167

Cuckawalla

Trad climber

Grand Junction, CO

Feb 7, 2012 - 02:23pm PT

Reinhold Messner weighs in on the topic:

http://inclined.americanalpineclub.org/2012/02/reinhold-messner-at-outdoor-retailer/

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Feb 7, 2012 - 02:51pm PT

Kelly Cordes brings the goods, courtesy of Patagonia's website:

http://www.thecleanestline.com/2012/02/cerro-torre-deviations-from-reason.html

So in a self-regulated world where the participants broadly cite expression, anarchy and freedom as fundamental values – as they have since climbing began – who decides what to do with a controversial line of bolts?

Well, not those sitting on their asses, frothing at their keyboards about how Hayden and Jason were too young to make such a decision, insisting that they should have been consulted first, as if they’re owed something and could then grant or deny a has-been-never-was web-forum-climber stamp of approval. No, not them. And not those unable or unwilling to appreciate Cerro Torre on its own terms, or the ignorant who flew into a frenzy over a mountain, now somewhat restored, that they know nothing about. Nor those, like me, who sit from the comforts of home and agree with the removal.

No, the ones who got to decide were the ones with the courage and the skill to unravel and accept the mysteries of Cerro Torre’s spectacular southeast ridge.

ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber

San Francisco, Ca

Feb 7, 2012 - 02:55pm PT

I doubt the route will ever be completely removed and patched. I imagine an occasional hammer blow session. The most motivated chopper in the world is unlikely to be hanging around up there with epoxy and granite dust carefully filling holes.

Besides, don't those bolts now protect Lama's free route?

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Feb 7, 2012 - 03:43pm PT

" . . . from all those pages we can clearly see praise and admiration for Maestri."

When a known, Homeric fabricator can be held up as an avatar for "praise and admiration," what does this say about us? What kind of values are we promoting here?

JL

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA

Feb 7, 2012 - 03:54pm PT

Kelly Cordes posting is typical of the black vs white, right vs wrong tone of this whole discussion. It is too bad that people still can't seem to see that there are a lot of nuances as to what happened and why for both this most recent event and those which happened in both 1959 and 1971.

I guess it is easier to have a discussion if you boil it down to something pretty simple.

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 7, 2012 - 03:56pm PT

Messner is clapping for the chopping made by K&K. Well, not much worth really. What is the weight of a god clapping?

And Kelly Cordes has chosen the polemical way like Enzolino.

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 7, 2012 - 03:59pm PT

Both hands, while smiling and enjoying the laughter of the audience. :o/ LOL...

Edited: Messner told a short story about the history of the Compressor route. When it comes to the chopping I enjoyed the seriousness of the question. The clapping answer though was the answer of an old circus-horse enjoying the laughter of the public.

eric Johnstone

Trad climber

B.C.

Feb 7, 2012 - 05:29pm PT

Easier to forgive and look past it if the guy showed even the smallest hint of admitting he may have lied.

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber

San Francisco

Feb 7, 2012 - 05:52pm PT

Did you guys decide who is gonna go back and put them back in yet?

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 8, 2012 - 06:48am PT

Messner is clapping for the chopping made by K&K. Well, not much worth really. What is the weight of a god clapping?

And Kelly Cordes has chosen the polemical way like Enzolino.

Just a few comments.
Everybody knows that Messner is an authoritative figure in the mountaineering world. But this doesn't mean that he is always right.
The fact that he believe that KKK used no bolts shows that he is not so well informed on this issue. However, this is just a detail.

Two of Messner's comments made me laugh.
One of his arguments is about the capabilities of Maestri's time to climb Cerro Torre. If Messner is correct, then he either was a liar in the past, or his argument is pretty weak. There are plenty of achievements which had to wait many years before someone could repeat them. One of them took 42 years, and is the famous "impossible slab" of Sass della Crusc which, according to Messner claims, was freeclimbed by him in 1968 with boots. Here more details about this fascinating story.
http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?keyid=37744.
So, according to Donini's standard, because many climbers could no repeat Messner's achievement, at least for 42 years he should be considered a liar!

Now the second comment.
According to Messner now KKK proved that that face was climbable without bolts. Beside the fact that this is not true yet (they used bolts), I find this argument pretty ridiculous. Following the same argument we can say that, Astroman, Half Dome, Hasse Brandler, several routes on the N Face of Grandes Jorasses, the Diretta Americana on the Drus, and so on, were even climbable without pitons or other protections in freesolo. We can say that Everest was climbable the first time without oxygen and fixed ropes.
I believe, on the contrary, that thanks to the "disputable" style of the past, the new generations could face new challenges. I can accept the bolts or pitons removal to enhance the challenge, engagement and wilderness of a route, but this cannot be based on the crucifixion of the style of the past.

Now a personal consideration.
Messner has always been coherent with his ethical beliefs, and I think he is one of the more inspirational pioneers not just in alpinism. But fortunately there have a broad diversity of views about ethics in climbing. Fortunately, the Preuss ethics is not the exclusive one. Fortunately we can also enjoy bolted routes in the mountains, along smooth and unprotectable lines. When Messner was a boy, Bonatti, who had much more media coverage and publicity than Maestri, was his role model. Therefore it is not surprising if he criticized strongly Maestri's style. But it is not written anywhere that Maestri had to align himself to an ethical standard, when this was not so standardized like now. Furthermore, as far as I understood, Maestri was a better rock climber than Bonatti. Bonatti never committed himself in extreme freesolos, like Maestri did.

Alright ... I'll go for lunch to have a nice pasta al pesto ...
Ciao :-)
Enzolino

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Feb 8, 2012 - 08:53am PT

Yet another perspective from someone who was actually there at the time, a now-public circulating letter to Carlos Comesana from Doug Tompkins (courtesy of UKClimbing):

Hi Carlos,

Finally someone chopped those bolts of Maestri off of Cerro Torre. In my way of thinking it is 40 years too late, but better late than never. If there ever was a sacrilege in alpinism this had to take the cake. This bolt ladder had compromised Cerro Torre for all these last four decades, not to mention the slime ball Maestri with his lies, his arrogance and his cowardice. I remember arriving with my wife to his base camp in early 1971 and it was a pig’s stye. We spent two full days picking up the garbage and restoring the area. It was a metaphor for Maestri and all he stood for, the black chapter in Patagonia climbing.

Hats off to Hayden Kennedy and Jason Kruk, they had the courage, the ethics and the climbing style that now has rectified the curse of Maestri and put Cerro Torre back to the dignity it deserves. Let only climbers who have the techniques, the courage and the sense of adventure and human accomplishment that are capable of reaching the summit by the leading standards of contemporary climbing, not reduced to the lowest common denominator by such things as bolt ladders. Today, bolt ladders are obsolete (if ever they were really acceptable), the climbing techniques and standards have blown by all of that, we are in a new era. Those of us having climbed in these past epochs can only salute and admire the work of these young contemporary climbers, and not cry in our cups that the errors of our own era are being even somehow desecrated. That is nothing short of a testimony of the small mindedness of a relatively small group who raise unsophisticated and actually outlandish arguments having nothing to do with real climbing standards. You will not find one top climber in today’s field of world class alpinists who approved of Maestri’s bolt ladder in the first place or who is not happy that it is being chopped out. Fair Means is the password today. Lets not talk of dumbing down climbs or the climbing standards that are always advancing, let’s not have any retreats to the mistakes or lower climbing standards of forty years ago.

Shame on the circle of people who are criticizing these young climbers who just did an heroic feat of alpinism restoring the self respect of the mountain. As a contemporary of Maestri myself, I do not see anything worth preserving of his reputation as a fine alpinist, he left that at the door when he entered the Valley of the Rio de las Vueltas. His ‘legacy’ is that of a liar breaking the tradition of honesty and goodwill that climbing and its spirit of adventure has carried since the sport appeared , the industrialization of the compressor route unheard of in climbing before this or since remains one of the black marks on Alpinism any where in the world until today not to mention the outrage it provoked at the time of putting up the route.

Anyway, I just want to congratulate these excellent young climbers, they will go down in history as the heroes of Cerro Torre for this epoch and they will applaud future climbers who do routes faster and with less equipment and freer yet. For they embody the best spirit of human endeavor. Applause all around ! Let us be sure that we all back up Kennedy and Kruk and not let them get flummoxed for example by strident or hysteric voices swirling there in Chalten or elsewhere. They need our hearty support, they are the heroes.

Best, Doug

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Feb 8, 2012 - 09:15am PT

Enzolino, when you refer to me, please use your brain and be accurate. regarding Maestri and the 1959 climb, i stated that i was a supporter of Maestri's claims UNTIL i actually got on the climb and viewed the evidence. In the early 70's Mountain Magazine was using the argument that Maestri couldn't have done the climb because it was beyond the reach of climbers in 1959, an argument that you say that Messner and I are also using. I, by contrast, decided to approach Torre Egger by the Maestri/Egger line precisely because I believed that they had shown that it could be done.
The evidence that I found when I DID the climb, and have expounded on a number of times, is extremely damning from a number of fronts. If you persist in being delusional about the climb- so be it. I just don't want you to make inaccurate statements about my comments.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 8, 2012 - 09:19am PT

@Randisi,
thanks for the Kirkegaard quote ... I like it!

Well ... I think "manichean" is an understatement ...

I guess for some people it requires too many neurons to distinguish different shades of grey ... it's much easier to go for black or white ...
Many people may support the chopping of the Compressor, but it depends on the motivation behind ... but I guess some people are too thick to understand this ...

By the way ... sorry for my ignorance ... I was looking through google ... who is this guy (Doug Tompkins) ... is he a climber? Or just a businessman?
Then, is also my uncle opinion relevant to this issue (he is a businessman as well but not a climber)?

Thanks

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Feb 8, 2012 - 09:22am PT

Tompkins climbed the California Route with Chouinard and others in 1969. I believe that it was his only climb in the area.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 8, 2012 - 09:24am PT

Dear Mr Donini,

Enzolino, when you refer to me, please use your brain and be accurate. regarding Maestri and the 1959 climb, i stated that i was a supporter of Maestri's claims UNTIL i actually got on the climb and viewed the evidence. In the early 70's Mountain Magazine was using the argument that Maestri couldn't have done the climb because it was beyond the reach of climbers in 1959, an argument that you say that Messner and I are also using. I, by contrast, decided to approach Torre Egger by the Maestri/Egger line precisely because I believed that they had shown that it could be done.
The evidence that I found when I DID the climb and have expounded on a number of times is extremely damning from a number of fronts. If you persist in being delusional about the climb- so be it. I just don't want you to make inaccurate statements about my comments.

I apologise for this aspect. I understood that somewhere you used it as an argument.
I'm very skeptical for the 1959 Maestri's claims. Actually, I tend not to believe his story. However, I don't think this is a sufficient reason to crucify him through a media propaganda.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 8, 2012 - 09:26am PT

@Donini,

Tompkins climbed the California Route with Chouinard and others in 1969. I believe that it was his only climb in the area.

Thanks.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Feb 8, 2012 - 09:28am PT

Thanks for the clarification Enzolino, I guess we will just continue to disagree on this point.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Feb 8, 2012 - 09:30am PT

The California Route on Fitzroy.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 8, 2012 - 09:32am PT

Thanks for the clarification Enzolino, I guess we will just continue to disagree on this point.

Yes. I agree to disagree.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 8, 2012 - 09:48am PT

@Randisi

Another Manichean!

at this point I dunno, really!

It seems to me that some kind of rethoric "heroes of Cerro Torre"???, "the best spirit of human endeavor"??? is triyng to sell that new vanguard of Alpinism will be

not in opening new routes (as there are none for those bad as#@&%es of our fathers stolen them all from us to be climbed "by fair means" ???)

rather than in unbolting them (I cant believe that it was the only offenisive route in the world) after having climbed some few feet apart of their (reassuring) bolt ladder and having used only few expansion bolts (only few? fair means)

heroes??? please tell me your're kidding!!!

TwistedCrank

climber

Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom

Feb 8, 2012 - 10:22am PT

there are no heroes in climbing unless grace under pressure results in lives saved

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Feb 8, 2012 - 03:00pm PT

Yeah, absolutely, for years I've been pushing for the Half Dome cables to be replaced with a set of non-elitist escalators.

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Feb 8, 2012 - 03:35pm PT

The cables will withstand Climber Fundamentalism, no problem.

I'm sure they will.

The question is, will they withstand NPS bureaucrats?

SteveW

Trad climber

The state of confusion

Feb 9, 2012 - 02:38pm PT

An incredible thread about an incredible topic.
Thanks to all of the contributors.

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Feb 9, 2012 - 03:01pm PT

Yeah, absolutely, for years I've been pushing for the Half Dome cables to be replaced with a set of non-elitist escalators.

There already is one, it's called Snake Dike (aka Snake Hike); arguably less strenuous than the cables...

SGropp

Mountain climber

Eastsound, Wa

Feb 9, 2012 - 03:40pm PT

://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?l=2&keyid=39140

TwistedCrank

climber

Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom

Feb 9, 2012 - 03:56pm PT

From Planet Mountain ^^^^^^^^^^

In this sense I ask for the route not be eliminated from our collective memory and that the figure of Cesare Maestri be completely redeemed, both from a human and mountaineering perspective. And that one gleams the ray of sincerity which accompanied all his actions, right from that first, dramatic ascent of Cerro Torre with Toni Egger and Cesarino Fava.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Feb 9, 2012 - 04:23pm PT

Yup......and there really is an Easter Bunny.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Feb 9, 2012 - 04:46pm PT

Not sure what the root of this level of delusional revisionism could possibly be, but it appears to transcend mere nationalism breaching into the realm of a debilitating alternate reality distortion field of epic proportions.

Johnny K.

climber

Feb 9, 2012 - 04:53pm PT

SteveW

Trad climber

The state of confusion

Feb 10, 2012 - 12:23am PT

bump

adnix

Big Wall climber

Finland

Feb 10, 2012 - 04:40am PT

The planetmountain.com article is well written but from the logical point of view it has two very big problems. First of all it's clearly evident Maestri didn't reach the top of Cerro Torre in 1959. Secondly his gear cache was found below Col of Conquest so it's a very good question if we he
ever reached that point either.

The diffrence between 5 bolts of the fair means variation and the 500 bolts of the Compressor route is that the first one is a climbing route and the second one a via ferrata (iron ways).

marty(r)

climber

beneath the valley of ultravegans

Feb 10, 2012 - 09:15am PT

For those of you following the controversy around bolt-chopping on Cerro Torre: here are Doug Tompkin's thoughts, reposted from Conservacion Patagonica's FaceBook page.

Finally someone chopped those bolts of Maestri off of Cerro Torre. To my way of thinking, it is 40 years too late, but better late than never. If there ever was a sacrilege in alpinism, this had to take the cake. This bolt ladder had compromised Cerro Torre for all these last four decades, not to mention the slime ball Maestri with his lies, his arrogance and his cowardice. I remember arriving with my wife to his base camp in early 1971 and it was a pig’s sty. We spent two full days picking up the garbage and restoring the area. It was a metaphor for Maestri and all he stood for, the black chapter in Patagonia climbing.

Hats off to Hayden Kennedy and Jason Kruk, they had the courage, the ethics and the climbing style that now has rectified the curse of Maestri and put Cerro Torre back to the dignity it deserves. Let only climbers who have the techniques, the courage and the sense of adventure and human accomplishment that are capable of reaching the summit by the leading standards of contemporary climbing, not reduced to the lowest common denominator by such things as bolt ladders. Today, bolt ladders are obsolete (if ever they were really acceptable), the climbing techniques and standards have blown by all of that, we are in a new era. Those of us having climbed in these past epochs can only salute and admire the work of these young contemporary climbers, and not cry in our cups that the errors of our own era are being even somehow desecrated. That is nothing short of a testimony of the small mindedness of a relatively small group who raise unsophisticated and actually outlandish arguments having nothing to do with real climbing standards. You will not find one top climber in today’s field of world-class alpinists who approved of Maestri’s bolt ladder in the first place or who is not happy that it is being chopped out. Fair Means is the password today. Let’s not talk of dumbing down climbs or the climbing standards that are always advancing, let’s not have any retreats to the mistakes or lower climbing standards of forty years ago.

Shame on the circle of people who are criticizing these young climbers who just did an heroic feat of alpinism restoring the self respect of the mountain. As a contemporary of Maestri myself, I do not see anything worth preserving of his reputation as a fine alpinist, he left that at the door when he entered the Valley of the Rio de las Vueltas. His ‘legacy’ is that of a liar breaking the tradition of honesty and goodwill that climbing and its spirit of adventure has carried since the sport appeared , the industrialization of the compressor route unheard of in climbing before this or since remains one of the black marks on Alpinism any where in the world until today not to mention the outrage it provoked at the time of putting up the route.

Anyway, I just want to congratulate these excellent young climbers, they will go down in history as the heroes of Cerro Torre for this epoch and they will applaud future climbers who do routes faster and with less equipment and freer yet. For they embody the best spirit of human endeavor. Applause all around ! Let us be sure that we all back up Kennedy and Kruk and not let them get flummoxed for example by strident or hysteric voices swirling there in Chalten or elsewhere. They need our hearty support, they are the heroes.

gug

Trad climber

Italy

Feb 13, 2012 - 05:48am PT

I think that the point is exactly the one mentioned at beginning of that statement.
That route should have been chopped just after its realization, if somebody would have been able to do it, but now after 40 years and after a statement of the local community is really a non sense and a very dangerous act.
If we accept this behaviour every route can potentially be chopped even if now has become a calssical route and a part of the history of a mountain.

To mention an example, I think that it was acceptable if Robbins would have chopped The Wall of Early Morning Light just after the realization by Harding because at that time it was a part of an ethical discussion and because Robbins was an important climber in that period and in that valley.
Nevertheless it would be a nonsense and a violent act if somebody that comes from abroad would chop now the same route.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Feb 13, 2012 - 11:21am PT

I reject the notion that time adds value to the bolts.

What then should be the "statute of limitations" for the removal of totally unnecessary bolts?

Does weather play in? This was, after all, an exceptional season weatherwise.

Somebody should reprint Teddy Roosevelt's "in the arena" speech from a hundred years ago.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Feb 13, 2012 - 11:37am PT

This was more than an exceptional season weatherwise, this was an historic season. I have been going to Patagonia on a pretty regular basis since 1974 and I have never seen weather to compare with this season. Climbs done this season should come with an asterisk and a note that they were done in "Sierra Conditions."
What makes climbing in Patagonia Worldclass and badass is the combination of technical difficulty and extreme (as in bad) weather conditions. This season only one of those conditions was in evidence.

gug

Trad climber

Italy

Feb 13, 2012 - 12:02pm PT

The point is not that time does add value to bolts, but that the time makes a route become classical route: that means that many climbers have climbed on it and that there are pictures, topos, articles on newspapers, books in which there are stories on it.
At that point it is no more just an ethical discussion as in the beginning, because the route is owned by many people, even if it was not an ethical route (and I think that the Compressor Route was not a good style route even at that time).
If we do not agree with this principle we must do a list of many routes in which chop away the bolts everywhere in the world.
That is what enzolino tried to express, I think, and I agree with him.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Feb 13, 2012 - 12:34pm PT

... even if now has become a classical route and a part of the history of a mountain...

It was never 'classical' then or now - it was and will always be an enduring reminder of a rape of desperation. Again, it's a shameful part of the history of both the mountain and alpinism.

gug

Trad climber

Italy

Feb 13, 2012 - 02:29pm PT

It was never 'classical' then or now - it was and will always be an enduring reminder of a rape of desperation. Again, it's a shameful part of the history of both the mountain and alpinism.

I understand your point of view, I totally agree with your bad opinion of the style of this route, but you cannot say that the Compressor Route is not a classical route on Cerro Torre: come on, the most of the routes climbed after that finish on it!

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Feb 13, 2012 - 04:10pm PT

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

"Citizenship in a Republic,"
Speech at the Sorbonne, Paris, April 23, 1910

(thanks Anders)

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Feb 13, 2012 - 05:03pm PT

A seductive route certainly not a classical one. The CR attracted people Worldwide as a "reasonable" way to gain one of the most treasured summits out there. Cerro Torre always deserved better although I still have mixed emotions about the chopping.

climber

Boulder, CO

Feb 13, 2012 - 08:40pm PT

Many posters here should have done basic homework, instead of making folks like Leo Dickinson have to respond with basic climbing History 101.
Maestri was given a lengthy opportunity to explain himself in a Mountain interview, as I recall, and together with his other published statements only displayed his limitless egotism, condescension towards every "inferior" and otherwise revealed his narcissism to the world.
The casual use of the word "rights" here in regard to climbing is a non sequitor - climbing is a privilege, and it is mostly tolerated by the general public and authorities in specific only so long as climbers stay under the radar.
As an esoteric sport, it is essentially self-regulated unless or until it attracts the wrong sort of attention and results in regulation or outright bans. "Fair means" has changed over 100 years, but really represents the notion that climbing is a low-budget affair wherein tactics must balance a fair percentage towards failure. As soon as the budget, tools, teams, etc. pass an arbitrary threshold, it becomes civil engineering.
Had Maestri contracted with Argentina to construct a tourist line up Cerro Torre, his tactics might have been tolerable. He instead circumvented all standards, thumbed his nose at traditions and other climbers, and created a monument to his ego - which I can see being left in place as an example.
I can also see it being removed, also as an example - except Argentina apparently has developed an economic stake in the deal over 40 years.
I see too much self-aggrandizement in either story, frankly. Admit that had the bolt ladder not been there, the impetus to free that line would have been dramatically less compelling, more problematic, and even the recent mixed ascent by "fair means" might have evolved quite differently.
Lost here as I can tell is the story of Cerro Torre's FIRST free ascent - 1986, by Eric Winkelman and Mike Bearzi. With no fanfare, or sponsorship, the duo skied in via the icecap behind the accessible side, climbed the West Face, ice mushroom included, then exited the same way.
Apparently nowadays one must have a publicist, or else your ascents will not be acknowledged.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Feb 13, 2012 - 09:07pm PT

AE, good thoughts. Most of the vitriolic comments on this thread have come from people who have never been there.
Bragg, Wilson and Carmen did the West Face in alpine style (a first) in 1977, I'm not sure if they did it entirely free, but in ice climbing- what does that mean?

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 14, 2012 - 04:13am PT

@AE,
it's too easy nowadays to lecture on what "fair means" means. And even today is, in my opinion, a very subjective concept as also Kennedy and Kruk have demonstrated. Preuss or Barber would say than no ascent today is a really "fair means" enterprise. During Maestri's time, ethics was not as standardized as today. Bolt ladders represented a forced path in Yosemite and Dolomites, before criticism buried this disputable style. The famous article of a young revolutionary rebel, Reinhold Messner, was published just in 1968. Today everybody can say that the Compressor route was opened in a bad style. Everybody can say that to free climb a route is a better style than to aid it. But these statements are only apparently true. Because the degree of engagement of a route and its epic character is not cencessarily measured with the style.
Many people look at the finger, forgetting the moon. They look at the style, ignoring the human experience. So, to climb a route, almost boltless, with an incredible weather pissing on the Maestri's achievement of the past, shows a strong immaturity and disrespect. And this is what many climbers (especially italians) are criticising. Climbers that, in other circumstances, would have approved the chopping.

@Donini,
I agree that many climbers writing here have not been in Patagonia. But also climbers who have been there criticized the KKK chopping. Here, the point, is not the chopping itself, but the principles behind KKK motivations. And if we are not brainless climbers, this is what we are supposed to discuss about.

Finally, I propose another contribution of an italian guide, who is a Garibotti's friend, and a Maestri's admirer. I don't share his opinion, but I agree when he says that a big part of misunderstanding is the fact that Maestri's books have never been translated in english. It's in italian, but I guess, with google translator, it's possible to understand.
http://marcellocominetti.blogspot.com/2012/02/k-operazione-cerro-torre-il-giorno.html

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Feb 14, 2012 - 05:11am PT

During Maestri's time, ethics was not as standardized as today. Bolt ladders represented a forced path in Yosemite and Dolomites, before criticism buried this disputable style.

Weak and weaker - you can keep at it, but there exists absolutely no legitimate context in which you can succeed in justifying or rationalizing the compressor - none.

via Bearzi / http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1391646/

http://blog.oregonlive.com/terryrichard/2009/02/portland_climbing_film_event_h.html

There's a 55yo Eric Winkelman in Boulder - someone should get him hooked up with ST...

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 14, 2012 - 09:50am PT

@healyje,

I understand that you disagree with me, but can explain your arguments with just more than one sentence of bare denial?

Because I provided facts. Bolt ladders set up in the mountains (Dolomites in Yosemite) before and after Maestri's Compressor route. Do you want the list again?

The difference of Compressor's route was the use of a drill with the support of a compressor. And this drove many climbers mad. I agree it was extremely outrageous. Nevertheless, his winter attempt and summer "success" was epic, in my arguable opinion. Bad style for an epic adventure.

Perhaps for your personal and subjective sensitivity Cerro Torre is something different. But I don't think this is an argument.

The bottom line is that you cannot whine and blame something happened 42 years ago, as an atrocity and insanity, using the bolts (even if few of them) and then chopping many of them in the name of freedom, ignoring locals opinion. This is just a joke son of arrogance, ignorance, foundamentalism and immaturity!

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Feb 14, 2012 - 10:09am PT

Not sure what I can do or say other than to assure you one of us is using reaching, if not delusional rationalizations, in the matter. The bolts and the overwhelming judgment of them have both remained unaffected by the passage of time. Nothing you can say now can revise the reality of this overwhelmingly sad chapter in modern alpinism. Neither the Dolomites or the Valley are Patagonia and the name of the game down there was well-understood by the players at the time as corroborated here again and again by Maestri's contemporaries - there is simply no getting around the fact his actions were a complete break with those accepted standards.

TwistedCrank

climber

Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom

Feb 14, 2012 - 10:17am PT

I sat with Mike Bearzi on his brother's back porch in Bozeman the winter after his and EW's backdoor scoot up the Torre. We shared a couple of Camel straights and a couple of 'cheloebs after he showed the trip slide show to his family.

Yes, they used leashes. Fair means of the times. Free nonetheless. Yo.

Mike told to me how they literally just touched the summit - they didn't stand on it, just reached out and touched it. Then they got the fukk outta dodge because the lenticulars over the ice cap were training their sites on them.

Mike was a BAMF if ever there was one. RIP bro.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 14, 2012 - 11:26am PT

@healyje

Not sure what I can do or say other than to assure you one of us is using reaching, if not delusional rationalizations, in the matter. The bolts and the overwhelming judgment of them have both remained unaffected by the passage of time. Nothing you can say now can revise the reality of this overwhelmingly sad chapter in modern alpinism. Neither the Dolomites or the Valley are Patagonia and the name of the game down there was well-understood by the players at the time as corroborated here again and again by Maestri's contemporaries - there is simply no getting around the fact his actions were a complete break with those accepted standards.

I perceive a kind of religious aversion against bolts without appeal.
It comes to my mind a paradoxical climbing tale ... the legend John Bachar who consider his Bachar-Yerian bolted route as his boldest climbing achievement.

But going back to the Maestri's route. If Neither the Dolomites or the Valley are Patagonia , according to whom Cesare Maestri was supposed to adapt his ethical standard, learnt in Dolomites?
To the non-existing locals?
To the rivals who wanted to climb Cerro Torre before him?

Sorry dude, but I don't see much logic in your arguments, beside your irrational and religious opposition to the bolts.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 14, 2012 - 11:31am PT

I love the Steph Davis comment on Greg Crouch blog
http://gregcrouch.com/2012/the-compressor-route-chopped-more-thoughts

I guess someone will believe that somehow she is italian inside ... ;-)

Hi Greg. Thanks for posting on this. I heard about Hayden’s and Jason’s nice ascent a few days ago and was (and still am) really happy for them. I heard about this chopping just now, and I am not happy about it at all. Frankly, it bursts the pleasant bubble of happiness I was carrying around after hearing of the ascent they made.

Maybe I’m confused, and communication can change stories. But what I understand is that the Compressor Route is no more because the guys chopped it. If this is truly the case, I think this situation is a real shame. First, I don’t think Americans should alter a (legendary) route in Argentina. That is extremely presumptuous, and as an American, it makes me feel embarrassed. David Albert’s comment basically sums this up. I would hope Argentines will not go fill pin scars, remove webbing and chop bolts on the Nose, the Salathe Wall, Moonlight Buttress or any of the other revered, classic routes in America that exist only thanks to metal and hammers. Somehow I doubt they will.

Second, I don’t approve at all of the message of this action, which to me says, “I did a better climb, and that makes me the Decider, and now that I’ve climbed this peak in my good way, I Decided that everyone must follow my style if they want to climb it.” That seems extremely presumptuous, and it makes me deeply uncomfortable.

I also loved the history of the Compressor Route, simply for the crazy, baroque nature of its story. Of all the classic routes down there, I never climbed it, and maybe I never would have gotten back down to Patagonia for it, but it was always floating around on the bottom of my list just to share the experience that so many have had, the legend of the Compressor Route. I spent a lot of time below those torres, and I pondered the spirit and the passion of that story many times. I definitely thought I’d climb it sometime, just to see it for myself. It bothers me that someone else just decided I won’t.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 14, 2012 - 11:37am PT

@Dingus,
I know there is not relationship between the Bachar-Yerian and the Compressor's route ... but you have to realize that some people have a dogmatic opposition against bolts, regardless of the engagement of the route. Bolts, for them, represent the evil in climbing.
This is the impression that healyje gave to me.
So, that out-of-context comment was just to show the non-sense of that opposition.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Feb 14, 2012 - 12:23pm PT

I tend to agree with your views on fundamentalism in climbing (or otherwise). I don't buy the deification of a mountain. Terms like 'the rape of Cerro Torre' are actually laughable.

I know you make ambiguity a point of pride, avoid absolutes like the plague, and assiduously stop just short of "I've never met a bolt I didn't like", but if you think it's about deifying CT then I'd say you're falling disappointingly short of the mark even for you. And if you think a 400-bolt, gas-powered industrial hauling operation up one of the world's most striking alpine peaks isn't a 'rape' then, please, by all means do ambivalently expound on the [comparative] insignificance of the event.

Then again, it's a pretty simple deal - either you find there to be something 'fundamentally' foul about the events of 1970 or you don't. Enzolino has veritable bushel basket of varied and sundry rationalizations (which are at least entertaining), would love to hear yours, but I suspect from what I know of your perspective that none are necessary.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Feb 14, 2012 - 01:19pm PT

One day years ago the late great Kyle Copeland showed me a perfect splitter he discovered outside of Moab.

We climbed it and named the route Acromaniac.

Eventually, perhaps relying on subtle piton scars, the line went free.
But rather than bask in the notoriety of having made the first free ascent that person took the more self-aggrandizing course of renaming the route.

Now I hear that somebody who supported that action is assailing the "americans" that chopped the Maestri ladder for having removed history?

Hmmm,...

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 14, 2012 - 01:32pm PT

@healyje,

I have another entertainment for you.
This is one of Maestri contemporaries ... or better ... post-contemporaries ... from the article the Compressor route doesn't really look like a "ferrata" ...
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1029543/Cerro-Torre-FA-Alpine-Style-Brewer-Bridwell-Climbing-1980

A few interesting points:

"Where was the huge number of bolts the British had accused Maestri of placing ! Instead we encountered five or six clusters of hardware: clogs, pitons, rurps, cliffangers, fifi hooks, ice screws, even clog ascenders, and carabiners - so many carabiners we couldn't use them all. Fixed ropes trailed from the anchors, broken and shredded. They also were presumably left by the british team which had failed here in 1972."

I wonder if leaving rubbish on the mountain has anything to do with respect for the mountain or "fair means" ...

"A strenuous overhanging bolt ladder followed. How had Maestri managed here? [...]
We had climbed 3500 feet already - more than the Nose of El Captain and nearly as difficult."

Should we consider the Nose a ferrata as well?

The mushroom was sloped here, the difficulties reduced to a six-foot overhang of soft snow.

People make such a big deal of the mushroom ... when it's very clear that some climbers find easy slopes and others an unsormountable, tall and overhanging pillar of ice ...

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Feb 14, 2012 - 01:43pm PT

Well, there you go. 'Anything goes' is an ethic I suppose, in that agnostic sort of way. I'm not interested in telling anyone else how to climb either, unless they're going to slather rock I'm interested in with bolts, because at that point they are telling other people how to climb.

P.S. 'The reality concerning their placement and use is simply a reflection of my ambiguity.'

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Feb 14, 2012 - 10:23pm PT

Like completely polluting the stone I want to climb with bolts where they're clearly unwarranted - yep, that qualifies as an 'unless' every time. But then I can see how a keen sense of ambivalence could leave one in a just-don't-clip'em state of mind where it's all good.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 15, 2012 - 05:17am PT

@healyje

'm not interested in telling anyone else how to climb either, unless they're going to slather rock I'm interested in with bolts, because at that point they are telling other people how to climb.

now I can understand why you are so concerned

how unfortunate for you to have born in the wrong decade!!, I guess that 50 years ago (and with equipment of that age) you would certainly got to that summit and by that way without drilling the rock!

sure, I would have bet my balls

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Feb 15, 2012 - 05:25am PT

I guess that 50 years ago (and with equipment of that age) you would certainly got to that summit and by that way without drilling the rock!

Well, I can't really talk about fifty years ago, but thirty-eight years ago or today I'd walk away before drilling my way to the summit - what would be the point?

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 15, 2012 - 06:11am PT

Well, I can't really talk about fifty years ago, but thirty-eight years ago or today I'd walk away before drilling my way to the summit - what would be the point?

the point is that the conditional is overkill

gug

Trad climber

Italy

Feb 15, 2012 - 07:16am PT

I think that the most important point is not if the Compressor Route was ethically acceptable or not, but if it is right to chop bolts from a route that is in any case part of the history of Alpinism and if so who is that must decide on that.
I love Alpinism and, whatever is the opinion on Compressor Route, I think that we cannot accept that two young men came from abroad can decide such a important matter. Maybe it is something that can be discussed by important alpinists in a certain area and I read that there was such a meeting in El Chalten and that the decision was not to chop that route. So the act of take away the bolts cannot be accepted by those ones who loves Alpinism otherwise every climber can decide on every route he dislike for whatever reason.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Feb 15, 2012 - 09:09am PT

Fixed that for you:

I love Alpinism and, whatever is the opinion on Compressor Route, I think that we can accept that two young men came from abroad can decide such a important matter.

The history argument is completely bogus -that the compressor was and is such an egregious exception within alpinism is what makes it open to chopping. Opinions on leaving it appear to be largely based on nationalistic and commercial interests or biased towards some mythical 'consensus' which will clearly never be realized. Under any wholly-dubious 'consensus' arrangement the bolts would never be chopped.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 15, 2012 - 09:38am PT

@Randisi

Erasure should have occurred on the second ascent. Bridwell is to blame.

And if you insist that Bridwell in fact made the first ascent, then he is even more to blame.

I can't remember if this link has already been posted, if not, here's Brewer's 1980 account of their ascent of Cerro Torre:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1029543

I posted just 7-8 messages before you.

For sure someone posted this thread as well with an interview to Maestri. I completely share Luca Signorelli's view on this issue.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=825943&tn=160

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Feb 15, 2012 - 10:58am PT

From the 20th Piolets d'Or announcement:

...exploratory alpinism at a high technical level in minimal style undertaken with consideration for the environment.

Pretty much sums it up then as now with regard to CT...

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Feb 15, 2012 - 11:22am PT

Wait, I had a thought.....

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Feb 15, 2012 - 11:24am PT

In the interest of being as silly as climbing usually is:

assiduously stop just short of "I've never met a bolt I didn't like",

I've met a few bolts I didn't like,....because they were hanging half way out.

But I clipped them anyway........

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Feb 15, 2012 - 11:27am PT

So let me get this straight:

Bridwell is to blame.

That's rich. Ridiculously stupid, but rich. I had a laugh.

Since Maestri chopped the top of his final bolt ladder on his descent, Bridwell was actually the first to climb the Compressor Route without chopping bolts, thereby setting a dubious precedent for all subsequent climbs. If he had respected the style of the first ascent, he would have chopped the top 20 bolts or so on his way down, just like Maestri. If everybody who climbed the route since had done the same, all the bolts would be gone by now. Isn't that what dear Cesare truly wanted? To share the route with nobody?

TwistedCrank

climber

Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom

Feb 15, 2012 - 11:34am PT

Bridwell was actually the first to climb the Compressor Route without chopping bolts, thereby setting a dubious precedent for all subsequent climbs

There was nothing dubious about the precedent set by Bridwell and Brewer's FTA (first true ascent).

The precedent was he showed how fast it could and should be done. Also they were in a bit of a hurry - a constraint not imposed in these times of climate softening and weather windows that last more than 2 days.

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Feb 15, 2012 - 11:40am PT

There was nothing dubious about Bridwell and Brewer's FTA (first true ascent)

I wuz beein sarkastic

The Brewer/Bridwell ascent was badass. What Maestri did was badass as well, just wrong and dishonourable. Bridwell is not to blame for Maestri's route!

I just read Brewer's article again. Enzolino cherrypicks some nice quotes above, but none of them refer to the actual headwall bolt ladders that Kruk and Kennedy removed.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Feb 15, 2012 - 12:04pm PT

Bridwell was actually the first to climb the Compressor Route without chopping bolts...

Given the dropped gear, weather, and fall I'd say they were in no position to even think about chopping the line.

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Feb 15, 2012 - 12:09pm PT

healyje

no need to debate this. I was joking.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 15, 2012 - 12:19pm PT

@Snorky,

The Brewer/Bridwell ascent was badass. What Maestri did was badass as well, just wrong and dishonourable. Bridwell is not to blame for Maestri's route!

I just read Brewer's article again. Enzolino cherrypicks some nice quotes above, but none of them refer to the actual headwall bolt ladders that Kruk and Kennedy removed.

As far as I'm concerned the discussion is not just about the KKK chopping but also the previous Garibotti's and Haley's despectful, deceptive and unfair anti-Maestri propaganda. Which, in my opinion, contributed significantly to the KKK chopping. And the Compressor route is not just represented by the bolt ladders.

I've just read the Maestri's interview ... and now I sympathize even more with him ... even for the little fact that I have such a bad memory that I barely remember relevant details of my ascents ... so I understand him when he is so vague ...
I'm also sure Maestri wouldn't give a damn about the chopping ...

I agree that Brewer/Bridwell/Maestri's ascents were badasses ... that Maestri did it in a bad style ... but I also think Maestri's ascent was epic ... crazy (in the positive sense) and I find some beauty in his anarchic view of climbing, although I don't share it and, fortunately, I think it was an "almost" isolated case ... I consider his character somehow very similar to Harding's personality ...

ms55401

Trad climber

minneapolis, mn

Feb 15, 2012 - 08:34pm PT

"done in Sierra conditions" ...

... "by Eldo prancers" ...

the ultimate put-down

gimmeslack

Trad climber

Feb 16, 2012 - 09:47am PT

http://www.thecleanestline.com/2012/02/a-word-.html

//A Word …

by Yvon Chouinard
Ridgeway_r_0024_2

The siege tactic used on Cerro Torre’s Compressor Route is perhaps the most egregious example of alpinism’s egoistic “manifest destiny” philosophy, one that calls for conquering the mountain by any means, then leaving in place the pitons, bolts, ropes and cables. This debases a route, leaving it accessible to those without the skill or nerve to climb in good style. It is the alpinist’s equivalent of hunting with headlights.

Unfortunately, you can see the damage in so many places, in the Dolomites especially, where routes first done in great style in the 1920s now sport bolts every few meters.

Thank God there are a few young climbers like Hayden Kennedy and Jason Kruk who exemplify the best qualities of alpinism. The magnificent southeast ridge of Cerro Torre has been unshackled and can now be an inspiration to future alpinists who have the courage to climb rather than merely summit by any possible means.//

gimmeslack

Trad climber

Feb 16, 2012 - 09:50am PT

http://lacachania.com.ar/noticia.php?id_nota=219&id_seccion=3

And there you have it.
Done.

splitter

Trad climber

Hodad surfing the galactic plane

Feb 16, 2012 - 09:52am PT

Bridwell Rulez, Suckerz!!

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 16, 2012 - 10:36am PT

The king of ethics spoke ... LOL

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Feb 16, 2012 - 12:37pm PT

I haven't checked this thread in a few weeks and I'm bored with it now but this quote I found interesting:

"As far as I'm concerned the discussion is not just about the KKK chopping but also the previous Garibotti's and Haley's despectful, deceptive and unfair anti-Maestri propaganda."

What's confusing here, to me, is that I thought it was pretty well established that Maestri perpetrated two enormous hoaxes per his supposed 1959 ascent with Toni Egger, and his Compressor debacle in 1970. In the later, it was always assumed that he actually summited the peak. Not till Bridwell and Brewer completed the line a few years later did the climbing world realize Maestri never finished this ascent either.

In perpetrating such wholesale frauds on the adventure community, playing the world for fools, was Maestri himself not the epitome of someone being "disrespectful, deceptive and unfair." To turn this around and accuse those calling Maestri out for being a bald faced phoney, and ascribing him historical merit and authorship of "classical" routes he never actually completed, seems to border on insanity.

JL

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Feb 16, 2012 - 01:00pm PT

Hypocrisy certainly, but using the word "insanity" is a telling sign of just how important these issues still are to you Largo.

And I don't mean this in a bad way.
In a world that has virtually obliterated the concept of honor there are still a few individuals that refuse to abandon it.

But, though I am convinced that Maestri never stood on the summit, whether the route was completed by him or Jim it still is what it is.
We can sit in armchairs and blather all we want, but the only statements that bear true weight are the deeds done on high.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 16, 2012 - 01:32pm PT

Maestri always declared that he reached what he considered the top of Cerro Torre. WHich for him was just the rock.
So he was quite self-consistent and honest about what he said. If he didn't reach the summit of the mushroom and he would have said that he did reach it. In that case you could say that he was a liar. So I wonder where you see his dishonesty.
His account on the 1959 ascent was inconsistent, but this is not a proof that he lied. Climbing history is plenty of inconsistent accounts.

In conclusion, also in this case, I wonder if dishonesty, unfairness and insanity is just in the eyes of the beholder.

MarkWestman

Trad climber

Talkeetna, Alaska

Feb 16, 2012 - 01:51pm PT

This is like the people who claim they did a new route that ended when they reached the "end of the technical difficulties", far from the summit, and they decide to rappel off. This is called reinventing reality to fit your ego.

I consider basecamp the top of the mountain. Impressed by my ascent?

His account on the 1959 ascent was inconsistent, but this is not a proof that he lied. Climbing history is plenty of inconsistent accounts.

It was more than inconsistent. It had no bearing in reality.

This is like the Cook Society people who explain away Cook's "summit photograph" of Denali, showing his partner standing on rock- demonstrated years later conclusively to be on a 5,600' mountain 20 miles away- that the summit 'has since been covered over with snow'. And that just because an expert team of climbers in 1969 took 40 days to climb the route that Cook (who was not a skilled climber) climbed in five days round trip, and which had ice climbing difficulties that were 50 years in the future, that it "proves nothing".

In conclusion, also in this case, I wonder if dishonesty, unfairness and insanity is just in the eyes of the beholder.

It is, if one chooses to willfully ignore conclusive evidence.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 16, 2012 - 02:44pm PT

@MarkWestman,

I think you and Largo confuse honesty with personal standards.

When Salvaterra claims that he did a FA of "El Arca de los Vientos" in alpine style, although they used 150 meters of fixed ropes, I don't say that he is a liar. I say that his standard of what is alpine style, is pretty loose.

When Kennedy and Kruk claim that they did a fair means ascent of the Compressor route using several bolts, I don't say they are liar. But just that they have a very loose standard of what fair means means.

When Doug Scott, Peter Boardman and Joe Tasker claimed that they summited Kangchenjunga, but they actually arrived four meters from the real tip of the mountain, I don't say that they are liars. I understand that for them they reached the summit, and that they are honest about their account.

The same applies to what Maestri said. He didn't climbg the Icy mushroom and he stepped where he considered was the summit. 95 % of climbers disagree with him. And so what? You can say that he has a different standard, but not that he is a liar.
So, if someone sees dishonesty where doesn't exist, this questions the nature of his judgement.

A final comment ... I cannot care less if someone reaches the summit or not. That is a notaries' concern.
I care about the human experience. The epic of an ascent.

adnix

Big Wall climber

Finland

Feb 16, 2012 - 02:56pm PT

Maestri always declared that he reached what he considered the top of Cerro Torre. WHich for him was just the rock.

His account on the 1959 ascent was inconsistent, but this is not a proof that he lied. Climbing history is plenty of inconsistent accounts.

I'm beginning to wonder if it's insanity, the lack of Patagonian climbing mileage or the lack of logic that can give this kind of comments.

The summit is the summit and nothing else. The compressor bolts ended before the top of the rock. Pretty much proves he didn't reach the top of the rock like he claimed. It's like climbing the Salbitchijen in the Swiss but not doing the Nadel because "it's not the summit".

1959 thing has been discussed too many times already but If you've ever climbed anything in the massif, it's very evident that failing on the "approach" with 50's gear makes it totally impossible doing the first ascent with an alpine style push to the summit from the col like he claimed. This year that such push was done by Bjorn-Eivind and Ole on Torre Egger but with Nomics and loads of experince on WI6+ ice. The Ferrari first ascent was done with fixed ropes.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 16, 2012 - 03:08pm PT

@adnix,

Did Maestri say that he climbed the top of the icy mushroom? No. He said he stepped until the top above the rock but that he did not climb the top of the mushroom. You can say that he has a loose concept of what summit is, but not that he is a liar.

1959 thing has been discussed too many times already but If you've ever climbed anything in the massif, it's very evident that failing on the "approach" with 50's gear makes it totally impossible doing the first ascent with an alpine style push to the summit from the col like he claimed. This year that such push was done by Bjorn-Eivind and Ole on Torre Egger but with Nomics and loads of experince on WI6+ ice. The Ferrari first ascent was done with fixed ropes.

So, would you say that Reinhold Messner is a liar, because took 42 years to other climbers with modern climbing shoes and climbing performance to repeat his free climb in Sass della Crusc, where he used climbing boots? Do you believe he is a liar?

Would you say that the average jumper Bob Beamon and the jury were liars when he did a long jump record in 1968 which lasted 23 years, despite the progress in training and technology in athletics?

Don't you realize how weak is the skills of the time argument?

MarkWestman

Trad climber

Talkeetna, Alaska

Feb 16, 2012 - 03:23pm PT

I think you and Largo confuse honesty with personal standards.

enzolino,
I fully grant to you that personal standards and style and ethics are acceptable to be left as matters of one's own opinion and taste, provided they do no harm to others or to the environment.

The same applies to what Maestri said. He didn't climbg the Icy mushroom and he stepped where he considered was the summit. 95 % of climbers disagree with him. And so what? You can say that he has a different standard, but not that he is a liar.

Come on, now. Claiming that the mushroom isn't part of the mountain as an obvious justification for why he didn't finish the route is beyond absurd.

By this standard, every attempt on any route could be considered "complete". This is getting beyond a matter for "notaries"- do we have any standards at all when we can make claims to have made the first ascent of something but in fact there was more ground above which was not covered?

So, if someone sees dishonesty where doesn't exist, this questions the nature of his judgement.

Even if we allow Maestri latitude with his claim on the compressor route, the evidence overwhelmingly points to dishonesty in his reporting about 1959. I'm a scientist by training- I base my observations on evidence. Which also means I'm willing to change my view as new evidence comes to light. So far, the only evidence that he was being truthful is that nobody saw him NOT make it, so we don't REALLY know. Otherwise, it's overwhelmingly against him. It would be a great story if he really had made it- if it were actually true.

There's also a matter of our intuition: Browne and Parker stated of Cook's claim on Denali: "we knew he couldn't have done what he claimed the same way a New Yorker knows you can't walk from the Brooklyn Bridge to Grant's Tomb in ten minutes!"

A final comment ... I cannot care less if someone reaches the summit or not. That is a notaries' concern.

I care about the human experience. The epic of an ascent.

I'm with you on this enzolino, however, I also expect people to state very simply and honestly what they did, which only will add weight and value to their experience. There is no shame in stating: "I bailed just below the summit because (I was tired, the climbing was too hard, I was scared, the weather was changing, etc.). Far less respectable is "I bailed below the top of the mountain but claim a complete ascent because the last part of the mountain was too easy to be bothered with or because it was made of ice and it's not really part of the mountain". This sounds like excuse-making and redefining of facts- at minimum, this is intellectually dishonest.

rectorsquid

climber

Lake Tahoe

Feb 16, 2012 - 03:29pm PT

Picking a definition for a word that differs from what 95% of the population believes is the definition of that word is a rationalization. He picked a different definition to suit his desire to lie and then compounded that by suggesting that it is a matter of style as opposed to being a matter of honesty.

As soon as you tell someone else something, you are responsible for what they take from it. If you use a word very differently from how they use it and you know it, you are intentionally misleading them.

A lie by any other name still stinks.

Either that or he was too stupid to know that people would take his statements differently than he meant. In that case, what a dumbass.

I would say that more than 95% of climbers would not call the area below the mushroom, or highest elevation of the rock, the summit but that's just a wild guess.

Dave

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 16, 2012 - 04:02pm PT

@MarkWestman,

Concerning standards, I agree that climbers should have a common definition of what style, ethics, fair means, alpine style or summit is. My impression is that Maestri and his team were fed up, the storm was coming and the mushroom was too dangerous. I can agree that we cannot say that he summitted Cerro Torre, but I disagree if you say that he lied. Because he admitted that he did not summit the mushroom.

I'm also a scientist and I know that sometimes there are hidden variables or wrong assumptions that, at the end, make a theory just wrong.

I agree that Maestri's inconsistencies suggest that he has been dishonest. However, the underlying assumption is that human memory is infallible. This is a wrong assumption. Human memory is even more fallible after traumatic experiences where the person tends to remove his recollections from the conscious mind. Finally, I don't feel that I can judge him as a liar and I prefer to doubt or to believe him. But not to say that he is a liar.

@rectorsquid/Dave,

you may be right on what most climbers define as a summit. We may even agree to say that Maestri did not summit Cerro Torre in 1970. But you cannot say he is a liar. He specified what he did at the end of his route and that he did not step on the top of the mushroom. You can only say that he has a different and (for you) wrong concept of what summit is.

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Feb 16, 2012 - 04:10pm PT

Enzolino

You're getting desperate.

If Messner couldn't accurately describe the details of the climb, and was generally disagreeable and obfuscating when discussing it, then , yeah I'd say he was lying.

Your Beamon example is stupid. He had witnesses. And it was measured. It's on video. C'mon, do better.

Regarding Maestri in 1970. He may have done the first ascent of his awful Compressor Route, but he did not make the first ascent of the formation. You have to stand on top for that title. Not all routes go to the top. It is telling, though, that after all that effort, he wouldn't bother climbing the final moderate snow mushroom. He was totally unmoved by the mountaineer's instinct of climbing until there is no further one can climb and surveying the kingdom. How totally unromantic and hard-hearted.

Regarding Maestri in 1959, one on side there is all extant evidence, including testimony from those who have searched for traces of his historic passage, the placement of his gear cache well below the col, and his own inability to consistently describe the climb. On the other hand is the character of his word, which, sadly, has been compromised by his own inconsistent, belligerent, and narcisisstic explanations of the climb, as well as the lack of physical evidence that he claims to exist, such as the bolts he and Egger left behind.

Enzolino, I'm curious. What exactly would you consider to be evidence that he fabricated the 1959 story?

What if I told you that some hardcore Chilean climber and myself made an FA of a new route on Cerro Torre seven years ago via a system of shallow overhanging dihedrals connected by leaning ice-smeared ramps beginning on the south face and finishing on the Ragni route? The whole climb was so intense that my memory of the details is sketchy. We didn't quite top out, because what's the point? We climbed the hard part. Easy climbing is not worth my time. We descended through an epic storm that erased the super unique conditions that made our invisible line possible. We got into a huge fight about whether to report the climb at all. We didn't. Real men don't answer to anybody. We haven't spoken since, can't remember his name.

Don't believe me? Who cares?

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Feb 16, 2012 - 04:16pm PT

What if I told you that some hardcore Chilean climber and myself made an FA of a new route on Cerro Torre seven years ago via a system of shallow overhanging dihedrals connected by leaning ice-smeared ramps beginning on the south face and finishing on the Ragni route? The whole climb was so intense that my memory of the details is sketchy. We didn't quite top out, because what's the point? We climbed the hard part. Easy climbing is not worth my time. We descended through an epic storm that erased the super unique conditions that made our invisible line possible. We got into a huge fight about whether to report the climb at all. We didn't. Real men don't answer to anybody. We haven't spoken since, can't remember his name.

Good one!

LOL

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 16, 2012 - 04:16pm PT

Yeah well and Santa Claus should be real.

Pretending there is consensus may make some folk feel better but it resolves nothing.

The definition of a summit is entirely irrelevant to the chop anyway. Totally beside the point.

DMT

I agree on the last sentence.

About the rest, for me climbing is a game. And as in any other game, there are rules that make it more or less challenging (and fun). We can play with ourselves, and here we set the standards. But if we play with others, we should use a common language. Therefore alpine_style, freeclimbing, freesolo, ropesolo, on_sight, etc should have a well precise meaning ...

Fair means, instead, is quite personal ... you can use all bolts, an helicopter or your imagination and still make a fair means ascent ... :-)))

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Feb 16, 2012 - 04:22pm PT

Fair means, instead, is quite personal ... you can use all bolts, an helicopter or your imagination and still make a fair means ascent ... :-)))

Wrong.

If you impact a scarce public resource for your own private utility, that is a public problem, not a personal one, and that is incompatible with "fair means".

Edit: So I could helicopter to the top of Cerro Torre, rap-bolt it, and then aid up the bolts, and it would be a fair means ascent if I want it to be?

Seems like a stretch, but if you say so...

MarkWestman

Trad climber

Talkeetna, Alaska

Feb 16, 2012 - 04:37pm PT

I can agree that we cannot say that he summitted Cerro Torre, but I disagree if you say that he lied. Because he admitted that he did not summit the mushroom.

We're getting way too semantical here Enzolino. If I tell you I made the first ascent of Mount ABC, and I also tell you I stopped climbing 1000 feet from the top, what would you call that? I told the truth about not doing the last part. So therefore I'm not lying about making the first ascent?
Are you just trying to be contrarian?

I'm also making the argument that his readiness to use such absurd rationalization for THIS climb bolsters the likelihood that he LIED about the earlier climb, added to already very convincing evidence.

I'm also a scientist and I know that sometimes there are hidden variables or wrong assumptions that, at the end, make a theory just wrong.

Wishful thinking is not a hidden variable. I'm sorry. I'd love for Maestri's story to be true, but there's overwhelming evidence it's not. And if it is not true- he's a liar.

I agree that Maestri's inconsistencies suggest that he has been dishonest. However, the underlying assumption is that human memory is infallible. This is a wrong assumption. Human memory is even more fallible after traumatic experiences where the person tends to remove his recollections from the conscious mind.

So you seem to indeed believe that he didn't make the climb, but are also suggesting that the trauma of Egger's death has caused him to make up a fantastic alternate version of events as a coping mechanism? Even through the most traumatic moments of my own existence and those of everyone else I've known, I don't know anyone who would mistake completing the first ascent of Cerro Torre with retreating 1/4 of the way up the route.

Finally, I don't feel that I can judge him as a liar and I prefer to doubt or to believe him. But not to say that he is a liar.

It's nice that you have empathy for the man, but it seems like you are choosing to believe something that you actually know in your heart to be false. That, in my opinion, is a greater transgression (for yourself) than labeling someone a liar. I think you mean well and it's heartening that you are so willing to extend the benefit of the doubt- a longstanding foundation of the alpinist community- but I don't think we should be as forgiving for people who have violated that built-in trust. It's a huge disservice to us all.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 16, 2012 - 04:42pm PT

@Snorky,

Concerning Messner you are implying that he is a liar. Because as far as I remember he did not provide a detailed description of the crux and he justified the exploit saying that it was so hard that he was like in a kind of trance state. Nevertheless, I believe his claim. Because I am one of those people who has a very bad memory. And I know what means to mess up the description of a route, or the way I did a move in a climb that I did just a moment before.

About Beamon read more carefully. Beamon example was an argument to show how some performances can be realized decades before someone else can repeat them or do better. My questioning of that exploit was provocative (as well for the Messner exploit).

Concerning the '59 ascent there is not evidence that Maestri summitted Cerro Torre. It's understandable that people don't believe him. But I find their hate and fierceness excessive. As far as I'm concerned, there is the trust towards a person's word, by the way he communicates his truth and all circumstances around. Therefore I'm in conflict if to believe Maestri or not.

But for the same reason I don't believe your claim of your FA with the hardcore Chilean climber. But don't worry. I don't hate you. I won't set up a propaganda against you, your route and your style in the name of purity and honesty. I will not promote any erasure of your route. And even more, we can still be friends!

Finally ... Snorky ... com'on ... on "fair means" I was joking ... I was sarcastic in reference to what Kennedy and Kruk said ...

Fair means does not mean no bolts. Reasonable use of bolts has been a long-accepted practice in this mountain range.

Which I find pretty ridiculous ...

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 16, 2012 - 04:44pm PT

@MarkWestman,
sorry but I have to go to bed now ... reply you tomorrow ... :-)

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Feb 16, 2012 - 04:54pm PT

Remember that Maestri wasn't the last to justify what he considered a bold climb with an untrodden summit. I recall how, in a slide show I attended, Greg Child made a convincing case defending their first ascent of Shipton Spire with their bold route but which ended just short of the summit (http://books.google.com.au/books?id=FattUWiYu80C&q=p320#v=onepage&q=untrod%20summit&f=false);

Regardless, the issue here seems to have gotten polarised into nuances. Some people are justifiably upset because a classic route has been altered (and yes, it was a classic partly due to about 25% of the route made easier via bolt ladders). And others applaud the notion of purifying the line. Regardless, the bolt removal sets a new precedent of modern standards providing cause for "fixing" the old way, and who knows where it will go from here--that's the more interesting discussion, and might soon apply to our great areas of Zion, Yosemite, and other great walls closer to home.

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA

Feb 16, 2012 - 05:03pm PT

You think mountaineers make up stuff to justify the "success" of their climbs you should see what great lengths the current crop of Antarctic adventurers(and I use that term loosely) have gone to justify their claims of 'first' this and 'first' that. It is bordering on ridiculous.

MarkWestman

Trad climber

Talkeetna, Alaska

Feb 16, 2012 - 05:05pm PT

Deuce,

Child's statement above is a good example of truthfulness in reporting, it doesn't seem like he's doing anything other than stating exactly what they did, and allowing the community to decide what it is. As it should be.

In regard to this:

Regardless, the bolt removal sets a new precedent of modern standards providing cause for "fixing" the old way, and who knows where it will go from here--that's the more interesting discussion, and might soon apply to our great areas of Zion, Yosemite, and other great walls closer to home.

I agree and I share your concerns.

Squamish Climber

Trad climber

Shangri-La

Feb 16, 2012 - 06:40pm PT

I agree this debate is getting a little stale and repetitive in part due to a lack of fresh information. Squamishclimbing.com has just posted a feature article and interview with Jason Kruk.

Some info in the feature that's new or may not be known:
Jason had not intended to climb the Compressor Route this year. They only did it after climbing the other three "Torres" and the new route they wanted to do on the north face was out of condition.

While commending David Lama for making the first free ascent of the CR and praising it as a fantastic 'athletic achievement', he doesn't think it qualifies as an 'alpine climb'.

Jason says:

There will always be a very large asterisk, after his ascent, due to the fact that he had two Austrian mountain guides and a camera man hanging above him, at times as close as ten feet above him.

I think what comes through here and in his other statements about the climb is a person who is sure of his convictions and has the courage to act on them.

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Feb 16, 2012 - 07:34pm PT

To try and fob this off as reasoned and logical evidence per Maestri's nobility is in my mind folly and insanity. It is essentially saying that the summit of El Capitan, say, is wherever your particulr standars or principlas say it is, and that an actual, objective "top" or apex or summit does not, in fact, exist in time and space, but only in our minds.

The simple fact is I interviewed Bridwell for Mountain Mag shortly after he and Brewer did their ascent of the Compressor Route and heard Jim tell me (and I reported it as well, in no uncertain terms), that Maesri's bolts ended, absolutely and conclusively, some seventy-five feet BELOW the top of the rock.

This high point was no known or accepted definition the "end of the difficulties," and in fact Bridwell had to break out a chisel and copperheads and do the hardest climbing on the route to gain the top of the rock at the base of the ice tower.

So the simple fact is that Maestri never got to the actual top of the rock, but stopped half a pitch below, claiming all along that it was only the ice mushroom that he failed to summit.

You can write that off to personal taste, as to where the difficulties ended, but name one single marathon on the face of the earth where a runner can get credit for completing the race if they drop out even a quarter mile before the finish line. And what would you say to the person who insisted that a marathon, to them, was a quarter mile short of the official distance? You'd say that professional help was indicated, that they didn't have the wherewithal to recognize the difference between the the top of Half Dome, say, and Thank God Ledge. There are such unfortunates.

JL

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Feb 16, 2012 - 07:52pm PT

John, I'm pretty sure that Maestri reached the rim, where he could have walked up low angle ice and snow to the base of the summit mushroom, but making that final move off the vertical to the low angle, as you know, requires a bit of time to discard all the implements of vertical and get into snow walking mode with crampons, etc. I reckon he just figured he could walk to the top, thus called it a day.

The bolts ended below the rim (I recall it was only about 30-40'), because Maestri chopped his last 10 or so bolts, thus necessitating Bridwell's thin aid completion. But if I recall correctly, at the rim, Maestri's original bolts (that he rappelled from) were still there.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 17, 2012 - 03:42am PT

@Coz,
I agree with you. But I don't accept that people call someone else a liar and attack him with excessive fierceness just as a consequence of their poor logic and reasonings and because they don't like this person so much.

@Deuce,
thanks for your contribution.
Now we know that Maestri is not the only one who believe that, to claim to summit a mountain, doeasn't mean that he has to put his ass on the very tip. Now we can add Greg Child, Doug Scott, Peter Boardman and Joe Tasker.
I wonder why they have not been crucified like Maestri.
Or maybe I know why?

@MarkWestman,
semantics is important. Deuce message and mine showed that other climbers claimed an ascent, without reaching the very tip of the mountain. They were specific in their report, therefore this doesn't make them a liars. Analogously, Maestri specified that he did not reach the top of the mushroom. So, why you and others keep saying that he was a liar on this issue?
Trust is not a binary system. I didn't say that I don't believe Maestri and I didn't say that I do believe him on the '59 ascent. I say that I'm skeptical, that means that I suspend my judgment. This means that, for me, to call Cesare Maestri a liar just because of his inconsistencies is excessive.
You say

And if it is not true- he's a liar.

and in my opinion "ifs" are not facts, but conjectures, hypotheses.

@Largo,
Bridwell told you that he didn't find Maestri's bolts up to the end of the rock.
And from this you concluded that Maestri didn't step on the top of the rock.
There are topos around that show how also Bridwell rivets (very ethical as well!) stop before the very summit.

Well ... let me tell you something.
There is a special material in the mountains. When temperatures are below 0°C (= 32°F = 273.15 K) this material from liquid becomes solid. The chemical formula is H2O. When is very cold (quite below 0°C) this material, which is called ice, may stick on a rock, and climbers may use it for the ascent without the need to put pegs, bolts or protections.
Have you ever thought that maybe Maestri used it, but the ice conditions where different in the Bridwell ascent?
I'm just wondering eh?

Or

if for you the bolts are a proof of an ascent, you can ask Mr Bridwell if he put them on the mushroom as well and where they are now. Maybe, according to your logic, Mr Bridwell is a liar as well.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Feb 17, 2012 - 05:34am PT

Oh, the inanity!!!

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 17, 2012 - 07:26am PT

@Lovegasoline,
good point!!!

@healyje,

Oh, the inanity!!!

I guess you are confused.
Who typically is familiar with towers destruction are the talibans. And it's well known that they are not coming from Italy ...

Here below you can find some suggestions:

In english
http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?l=2&keyid=39140
http://alpinesketches.wordpress.com/2012/02/07/taliban-on-cerro-torre/

In Italian
http://www.planetmountain.com/News/shownews1.lasso?l=1&keyid=39126

or in Spanish
http://desnivel.com/alpinismo/los-talibanes-del-cerro-torre

do you know translators in other languages? No google please ... :-)

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Feb 17, 2012 - 12:43pm PT

The 'inanity' is the perverse lengths you guys will go to in order to hold onto to the idea Maestri wasn't lying about CT.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Feb 17, 2012 - 02:23pm PT

Just a friggin' rock is one way to look at it I suppose. But "just don't climb it" in this case is pretty much just a scale up of the "just don't clip them". I don't need to have climbed it to know what it's about given the photos and eyewitness documentation of those who have.

And it's an issue that affects all climbers, not just the few of you who've been on it. Also, I may be older, but CT has always been in my sights (along with Asgard) and I may yet sneak a trip in before I'm all done.

[ P.S. My only interest in the lies of an old man are as part of a vendetta to rationalize the compressor and it's continued existence

climber

Boulder, CO

Feb 17, 2012 - 03:20pm PT

Despite Enzolino's inferences, I remember near-universal condemnation of Maestri's actions at the time, and his subsequent interview revealed his utter lack of concern or respect for other climber's traditions or opinions. He actually was proud of his own anarchy, and spewed insults at his inferiors - essentially every other climber - and claimed the "right" to do WTF he wanted anywhere, anyhow, anytime.
Worse, as time has revealed almost certain fraud with regard to the claimed 1959 ascent, the offense perpetrated by the Compressor Route may best be regarded as a study in abnormal, antisocial behavior and psychiatric personality disorders, rather than debated in the arena of mountaineering achievements or ethics.
Trying to compare the man to Warren Harding is a grave insult to Warren. By contrast, Harding was an iconoclast, a shrewd, ironic social critic whose targets as often included other climbers - but he loved, rather than despised them. He never took himself or his climbs seriously, whereas Maestri seems to devoid of any sense of humor.

All of this notwithstanding, the second act in this Comedy of Errors surely must be the different, but equally arrogant act of chopping the route.
I agree that the time window closed on that act, about 35 years and a few score ascents ago. I am disgusted by everything the route stood for, and yet do see it as a historic route, albeit in all the worst ways. Along with the chiseled "free" routes that can be examined and used as learning tools, this should have been left as mute testament to the greatest follys of arrogant men.
Since Lama's free ascent represents a "superior" method of ascent, it is illuminating that he disagreed with the chopping. Kudos to him.

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Feb 17, 2012 - 03:39pm PT

This is directed at Coz

A lot of people seem to care whether Maestri lied. Something about it really strikes a chord in many climbers, one way or the other. That itself is interesting.

It is just rock, correct. But then again, it's not just any rock is it? It's obviously special.

I guess it comes down to whether one favors human history or natural history. Where does your affinity lie? I personally am amazed at how many climbers are against making Cerro Torre just a little wilder, in favor of some recent human architecture, even when stained in controversy and universally acknowledged to be in poor taste, even when it brings out the worst in everybody. Their statement is that an established route, even one done in the singular worst style ever, has more value than the wild condition of an extremely precious and beautiful climbing resource. Why climb natural rock at all then, why not just manufacture perfect artificial routes? I find it odd to declare bolts more sacred than earth, but I'm just a wispy wood elf, not a hardass ironman, so I can't relate to the pleasure of a full-on alpine ego-trip. I'd rather collect dew out of flowers personally.

Regarding having not climbed in Patagonia: Why exactly is that a prerequisite for having an opinion about the appropriateness of the bolt ladders? Is the rock made out of a unique substance down there, does gravity work in reverse in that hemisphere, is compressor-bolting an established norm, is it the only mountain range with bad weather? Why does one have to have climbed in Patagonia to have formulated an environmental ethic that relates to alpine climbing? What about this issue is specific to Patagonia, other than its coordinates? Obviously, having not been there, I fail to see how this would be any different if it happened on Trango Tower or in the Bugaboos. The scale of context of the incident includes the entire alpine environment, not just the nation of Argentina, which is merely a temporary overlay on the world's relief map.

Obviously, this incident highlights a number of important climbing issues that go way beyond Patagonia. It touches the heart of why and how we climb. The chopping of the Compressor Route will become a reference point for future alpine climbing ethics, access, history, stewardship, diplomacy, etc. And many prominent Patagonian vets have spoken out in favor of the chopping and convinced me with articulate arguments that the persistence of those bolts was a blight on the rock, if not climbing itself.

Cerro Torre is a UNESCO Natural Heritage Site, as well as an icon of alpinism, so what happens there may affect other great natural sites around the world. These should be managed for natural value, not cultural (especially examples of bad culture). Like it or not, whether I ever make it to Patagonia, I have an interest in such things, as should anybody that cares about natural wild places. If you don't want to hear it, don't participate in free-for-all forums. Create an echo-chamber blog and just post back and forth between yourself and your buddies. Otherwise, please tolerate us lesser folks and many thanks for letting us bask in the presence of great ones.

livellozero

climber

Feb 17, 2012 - 03:40pm PT

has this already been posted?

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 17, 2012 - 03:48pm PT

AE,
perhaps you necessarily remember the english speaking climbers' opinion + someone else, because they fit with youf belief. I remember that for many people he was a hero. And he remained a hero for the next generations.

I also wonder how you can infer your conclusions about Maestri's sense of humor.
Have you read his books?
Have you read his interviews in italian?
Do you speak italian?
If the answer is no, you know how much credibility your words may have.

His anarchy was exactly a reaction against alpinistic bigotry. The alpinism of people which take rules too seriously.
And this is one reason that makes the Compressor route so unique beside the historical character.
In other words the reality is exactly the opposite of what you said.

At this point, before carrying on with your "funny" comments about Maestri, I suggest you to take an italian course. I'm talking as a friend eh ... to avoid you further embarassments ... :-)

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 17, 2012 - 03:57pm PT

@livellozero,
great pic!!! ;-)

@Snorky,
I think you are getting this wrong.

I guess it comes down to whether one favors human history or natural history. Where does your affinity lie? I personally am amazed at how many climbers are against making Cerro Torre just a little wilder

Many climbers are not against making Cerro Torre just a little wilder. They are against erasing a route for the wrong reasons: disrespect for an historical climber and for an historical route. And by disrespect I don't mean necessarily the chopping itself.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Feb 17, 2012 - 04:03pm PT

His anarchy was exactly a reaction against alpinistic bigotry. The alpinism of people which take rules too seriously.
And this is one reason that makes the Compressor route so unique beside the historical character.

It has no 'historical character' and 'his anarchy' is beyond a piss-poor excuse for a winched-compressor ascent of CT.

Kinobi

climber

Feb 17, 2012 - 04:05pm PT

With reference to:
"But this thread has gone from talking about an establish climb being erased to and all out attack on an 80 year old man."

This actually says it all.
It really says it all.

Anyway, some climbers are organizing an event in Italy to show support to Cesare Maestri, as a human being. Everybody is invited.
Best,
E

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Feb 17, 2012 - 04:22pm PT

I don't claim to be an 'expert' by any means, but have read all the available eyewitness documentation of the those who have examined the '59 and '70 routes firsthand and seen the various photos of the ladders and anchors which, by themselves, don't really need any further elaboration or corroboration.

rampik

Social climber

the alps

Feb 17, 2012 - 04:35pm PT

95 to 2000

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Feb 17, 2012 - 04:40pm PT

Soooooo,.... the Compressor Route should have remained inviolate because it was a symbol of anarchy?

Isn't the chopping just as much a symbol of anarchy?

We are taking a ride on the mobius strip here.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Feb 17, 2012 - 04:40pm PT

Does anyone else see parallels between Maestri's claims and actions, and those of Robert Peary?

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Feb 17, 2012 - 04:41pm PT

David Roberts in Great Exploration Hoaxes.

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Feb 17, 2012 - 05:00pm PT

They are against erasing a route for the wrong reasons: disrespect for an historical climber and for an historical route. And by disrespect I don't mean necessarily the chopping itself.

Enzolino,

What was respectable about the route, other than its old age? Name something respectable about it.

Besides, the route is still right there. Only some superfluous protection was removed. It was free climbed without the bolts just days later! Nobody can take Maestri's name away from the route's history. Are you afraid people will forget the story? What do the bolts represent to you?

To me, it's like you're saying this: It's true, unnecessary bolt ladders are objectively bad and have no place in the alpine arena, except for the worst bolt ladder in the most beautiful area, which should never be removed, because it represents one man's personal struggle to cope with the trauma of having been justifiably doubted after the discovery of his half-truth. The bolts should remain, not even for climbing necessarily, but just as a monument to this tortured man, even though he himself wanted to remove them (and did so at the top).

So, if I follow, it is out of respect for Maestri that we must preserve the bolts that he wanted to remove. Huh?

crunch

Social climber

Feb 17, 2012 - 05:24pm PT

Hey, enzolino, your two posts would appear to contradict each other:

His anarchy was exactly a reaction against alpinistic bigotry. The alpinism of people which take rules too seriously.

ten minutes later:

Many climbers are ... against erasing a route for the wrong reasons: disrespect for an historical climber and for an historical route. And by disrespect I don't mean necessarily the chopping itself.

Kruk and Kennedy performed an act just as anarchic. Equally, I think, a reaction against alpinistic "rules".

Each new generation has to wrestle with the "rules" that the older generation deem inviolable.

Christian Griffith, in 1986 (or was it last week?):

“Like a bull crashing from the hands of its tormentors through the hands of the arena, a new generation shakes its horns and parts the crowd. They are free. They are the new power that will decide what direction climbing should go....What is possible? What can be braved? How can new heights be reached and old barriers be dissolved?"

A bit melodramatic, maybe, but his next bit gets to the heart of the matter:

"Respect for the past should be measured by respect for the future.”

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Feb 17, 2012 - 05:40pm PT

Crunch, interesting that CG's comments were part of a vanguard that involved an exponential increase in the number of bolts in our crags, but which indeed, also saw a significant rise in technical standards.

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Feb 17, 2012 - 09:11pm PT

It was my understanding that CM never got to the top of the compressor route because Bridwell told me that he headn't, that all evidence of his efforts stopped someways below. No doubt he could have drilled his way to the top of the rock, but he stopped short.

Now I'm willing to accept that maybe this is wrong, that maybe he got to the top of the rock.

But who believes that he summitted with Egger in 1959. Did he not claim to do so? Who says he did, and what is the evidence.

This was roughly the time of El Caps first ascent. What if Harding claimed to have climbed the Nose, but actually only got to Camp 4. How would history treat such a person and such a claim?

JL

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Feb 17, 2012 - 09:50pm PT

Deuce, Largo

Since you're both here - Didn't you two write the How to Climb Big Walls book? That was my manual. Thanks for writing it. I didn't die yet, although I haven't tried very hard!

And just a break in the action to look at Cerro Torre again for a sec. Enjoy this unusual view:

This is pretty nice too:

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 18, 2012 - 04:20am PT

I wonder if Americans understand what the Italians mean by comparing K&K to the Taliban? What do most Americans think when hearing this?

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Feb 18, 2012 - 04:36am PT

I wonder if Americans understand

me too, many of them, at least

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 18, 2012 - 09:05am PT

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Chop it!

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 18, 2012 - 09:09am PT

No Randisi... It's just an act of covert aggression trying to add to the polarization by indicating that the dog is an excellent metaphore for K&K... tearing down Their Berlin Wall... commanded by the master they have internalized... LOL...

sandstone conglomerate

climber

sharon conglomerate central

Feb 18, 2012 - 09:09am PT

how about some more godamn pics? this horse is glue...

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Feb 18, 2012 - 12:07pm PT

I wonder if Americans understand what the Italians mean by comparing K&K to the Taliban? What do most Americans think when hearing this?

I certainly can't speak for most Americans (the vast majority don't climb). But it's a pretty poor analogy to associate the Taliban destroying giant 2000 year old Buddha carvings with the chopping of a route done 42 years ago which was / is widely thought to be an abomination (or consecration, desecration, etc).

Speaking of poor analogies, since we keep hearing words to the effect of "leave the old man alone"; "don't beat up an 80 year old man", I suppose we could have said the same about Nazi war criminals captured in their 80's and 90's. Thank goodness they didn't get any sympathy just beacause they were old!

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Feb 18, 2012 - 12:13pm PT

Perhaps you should try reading a little more carefully?

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 18, 2012 - 12:20pm PT

Hardman

I see you understand the analogy. In my view "The Taliban of CT" (destructors of cultural symbols from times gone) is not quite as bad an analogy as it is when K&K compare the chopping of the bolts to tearing down The Berlin Wall (giving freedom to the people to move where they want to move), but it is still no good analogy. But as this case show, the polarization is clear. First K&K claiming to have been tearing down The Berlin Wall and then the Italians reacting by giving K&K the name "The Taliban of Cerro Torre". Bringing the nazis into this is just annoying.

One important difference I see between the American and the Italian view is that the Americans insist upon not forgiving the old man while the Italians insist upon forgiving and treating the old man with respect even if he failed 40 years ago.

Hayden and Jason are young guys, 20-25 years old, born 17-22 years after Maestri's bolting. The chopping was in my view an aggressive act based on the stories brought to them by climbers 30-40 years older. It doesn't make the act of chopping any better that it is supported by Messner and other half-gods or authorities.

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Feb 18, 2012 - 02:39pm PT

Because another thread has become my inveterate "see what's on Supertopo" pageview, I think I'll post the following to wrap up my thoughts on this thread. Greg Foweraker wrote me last week in response to my comment about their route on Shipton, and and asked me my thoughts about Jason and Hayden, as he was going to introduce them at an event. Here:

I think Hayden and Jason are heroes in the sense that they did something they believed in. I think John Long's comments have been the most appropriate--the state of climbing is determined by the vanguard, and they are the vanguard.

Jim McCarthy once told me (when I was young): "Youth is wasted on the young." But that's bullsh#t, even though we might do things which we later in life view as impetuous, immature, reckless or whatever, our actions define us, for better or worse, and it's generally better than we initially can conceive. Hayden and Jason's path in life will definitely be affected by their actions on Cerro Torre, but I suspect it will be for the better.

That about sums it up for me. Apologies for the stochastic post. Carry on!

(EDIT: Jim McCarthy, btw, is one of my heroes of the old days).

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 18, 2012 - 03:42pm PT

deuce4

You say: "I think Hayden and Jason are heroes in the sense that they did something they believed in."

To agree with you I will have to add something: To believe in what you do is not enough. A lot of people have done sick things through life based on an equally sick belief. The KKK as an example. To be a role model you also have to show that you acted based on a deeper ethical reflection and not only out of aggression and self-confirming reasoning. And in this they are lacking. They acted from an aggression and self-confirming reasoning we can see shining through in the words atrocity, rape and tearing down The Berlin Wall.

You also say: "even though we might do things which we later in life view as impetuous, immature, reckless or whatever, our actions define us, for better or worse, and it's generally better than we initially can conceive. Hayden and Jason's path in life will definitely be affected by their actions on Cerro Torre, but I suspect it will be for the better."

My answer: What do you mean by "path in life affected for the better"? Do you mean well received within some circles - the circles who praise the chopping and K&K as heroes? Or do you mean more loved - by who? Or do you mean becoming more humble, better at reflecting around the perspectives of others before they act?

I can easily see an arrogance behind the words "Carry on!". Well, if so - that's your choice.

bmacd

Mountain climber

100% Canadian

Feb 18, 2012 - 04:03pm PT

News Flash: I was just informed by a highly authoritative source that Hayden holds dual Canadian / American citizenship - so this possibly a 100% Canadian operation if Hayden did enter Patagonia on his Canadian passport.

No need for you Americans to bear the cross on this one.

"Canadians Chop bolts on Cerro Torre" has a nice ring to it ... major celebrations tonight after the Vanguard make their presentations at the VIMFF

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Feb 19, 2012 - 12:45pm PT

Respect for failure is one thing, respect for lying is quite another. A part of me feels sorry for him, respect could come if he told the truth.

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 19, 2012 - 01:19pm PT

Tami

Everybody in North America, even Canadians, know that Norway is the capital of Sweden. ;o)

eric Johnstone

Trad climber

B.C.

Feb 19, 2012 - 02:00pm PT

Or possibly it's the thought that a persons actions and honesty reflect their character.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 19, 2012 - 03:34pm PT

@Snorky

Enzolino,

What was respectable about the route, other than its old age? Name something respectable about it.

Besides, the route is still right there. Only some superfluous protection was removed. It was free climbed without the bolts just days later! Nobody can take Maestri's name away from the route's history. Are you afraid people will forget the story? What do the bolts represent to you?

To me, it's like you're saying this: It's true, unnecessary bolt ladders are objectively bad and have no place in the alpine arena, except for the worst bolt ladder in the most beautiful area, which should never be removed, because it represents one man's personal struggle to cope with the trauma of having been justifiably doubted after the discovery of his half-truth. The bolts should remain, not even for climbing necessarily, but just as a monument to this tortured man, even though he himself wanted to remove them (and did so at the top).

So, if I follow, it is out of respect for Maestri that we must preserve the bolts that he wanted to remove. Huh?

Personally I would not have had any objection against the bolts removal if it would have been carried on in a different way. But I cannot tolerate that:

first Rolando Garibotti and Haley promote a kind of mediatic anti-Maestri's campaign, describing the bolts as a Maestri's insanity.

Secondly that KKK describe this chopping a gesture of liberation for new generation analogous to the break of the Berlin's wall and the Compressor route an atrocity; just bullshit!

Third they did so in a foreign country ignoring the opinion of the locals. And this creates a dangerous precedence.

I cannot tolerate the disrespect and arrogance of these actions.

In the last two decades there have been several routes in Dolomites where old aid routes were freeclimbed or pitons or bolts were removed. But this was done without pissing on the head of the climbers who opened the route, but giving them respect. Personally I opened about 100 routes in Italy and Greece, all without bolts. I promoted clean climbing in the local areas where I lived. But I cannot ignore climbing history and diversity. And if yclimbers don't respect people's dignity and values, their actions will backfire one day.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Feb 19, 2012 - 03:49pm PT

Marlow: To be a role model you also have to show that you acted based on a deeper ethical reflection and not only out of aggression and self-confirming reasoning.

Now if only Maestri had read this before boarding the helicopter...

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 19, 2012 - 04:18pm PT

Healyje

In my view Maestri failed first when bolting in arrogance, K&K have failed now while chopping in arrogance. Simple as that.

One way to tell the chopping story:

Climbers at the time when Maestri bolted and was near the top of his strength hadn't the courage to chop.

Now nearly 40 years after when Maestri is old the climbers who lacked the courage to chop at the time have been telling stories and inspired their "children" to chop to the old mens pleasure and laughter.

A route that has been used by many climbers for many years and has been linked up as the top of more than one route has been chopped:

And chopped without local consensus,

chopped with self-aggrandizing thoughts about tearing down the Berlin wall and "revenge" for a rape. In my view just food for the mob,

chopped with no calm, no deeper ethical thought, no willingness to see the relevans of the context and the time when the bolting happened.

And this is not in defence of Maestri. The bolting and the chopping are two separate cases - both wrong as I see them. It's not as simple as some would like it to be - that either the bolting or the chopping must be right.

gug

Trad climber

Italy

Feb 19, 2012 - 04:31pm PT

Marlow, I completely agree with you: it is exactly what i tried to express in one of my posts.
Furthermore I think that is not right to see this discussion just as a nationalistic fight (even if nationalism is in many opinions I read): many italians don't agree with the chopping because they know better than others the story, the personality and the routes that Maestri made on Alps and for this reason they can better understand the reason for climb the route that way and feel that the compressor route is part of the hystory of alpinism and they don't like that this history is erased now.
Nevertheless the compressor route was not considered as ethically acceptable even in Italy: I remember that first time I read something on that route was in one of the books of Walter Bonatti and he had a very bad opinion on it.

WBraun

climber

Feb 19, 2012 - 04:53pm PT

Marlow

So what have you ever done?

What have you really ever done?

Anonymous poster extraordinaire. Who are you really.

Or are you so afraid to reveal yourself .....

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 19, 2012 - 05:02pm PT

WBraun

I'm not afraid. It would not add anything to reveal who I am, so I will not. I'm "noch einer" climber. You are a far better climber than I have ever been or will ever be.

Is it your opinion that this fact has implications for the worth of my argumentation? Do you think an argument from an 8a climber has more weigth than an argument from a 7a climber?

WBraun

climber

Feb 19, 2012 - 05:15pm PT

7a 8a what the hell kind of answer is that?

I wasn't asking for any numbers. You're hung up on numbers.

What have you really ever done and who are you was the question.

You are scared to reveal yourself for who you really are.

Anonymous posters are so scared .....

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 19, 2012 - 05:28pm PT

Marlow: No, I'm not
WBraun: Yes, you are
etc.

Contradiction... just boring...

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 19, 2012 - 05:29pm PT

gug

I wish Luca could tell the Maestri-Bonatti relationship story.

Maestri was as I have heard an arrogant climber who indicated Bonatti was poor or weak. If I see two "heroes" within the climbing community, one dead, one alive, one male, one female, it must be Walter Bonatti and Lynn Hill.

But even if Maestri was an arrogant man crossing borders that should not have been crossed at his time he deserves to be judged with consciousness of the context of his time.

As I have heard from some Norwegian Dolomites climbers Maestri was incredible strong and a formidable climber.

iep
Jason shitting his pants - that's no mistake ethically seen, that's fair and square. It's impressive to see the way Jason handles that part of his story. And the way he with wit and humor handles his sh#t and pants is part of what I think will make him the rock-star he wants to be.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 20, 2012 - 03:12am PT

I don't have time to support with a reference what I'm gonna say, but Maestri said in an interview that Bonatti was a great alpinist. He tended to underevaluate Bonatti's achievements, but as a "rival" it's not so surprising. But to me doesn't seem he had special hatred against Bonatti.

I'll report below here as well a comment I posted here
http://www.climbmagazine.com/news/2012/02/cerro-torre-petition

I'll start with the cherry on the cake.
The name of the climbers listed for the Compressor route are Bridwell and Brewer in first place, and Alimonta-Claus and Maestri in brackets. In my view, this is a further example of Rolando Garibotti's bad faith and unfair and dishonest behavior. Because of 20-30 meters, the first repeaters have the credit of almost 2000 m (?) route ... not bad eh ...
Furthermore the petition. Took exactly one month for the author of the petition to recruit 86 + 9 names. There should be more to say on the hypocrisy of some of these names, but I'll do it with more time another moment.

When I read this message
"Constable Garibotti just sent me an email asking for my support in the chopping of Maestri's bolts. A little late, don't you think?"

in this website:

http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web12w/news ... -statement

I was sure that someone was desperate enough to find consensus, maybe recruiiting the signature from climbers with a strongly biased opinion about bolting. Quite predictable.

Fortunately, the international climbing opinion is much broader, more heterogeneous and open minded than this ridiculous bunch of names.

What this means now?
That their "authorization" will give also a green light to remove all the bolts from all routes aroud the world, regardless of the host country and and the choppers' nationality?
Is it a "holy war"?

gug

Trad climber

Italy

Feb 20, 2012 - 05:18am PT

I read that interview and I agree with you. In any case in one of the edition of "Le mie montagne" by Walter Bonatti he criticized the approach of Maestri.
I wanted to mention this text because I wouldn't like that this discussion were merely consider as a nationalistic fight even if the most of italians climbers do not agree with the chopping because of a different awareness of the "boundary conditions" in this story.

Kinobi

climber

Feb 20, 2012 - 12:33pm PT

With reference to:
"The name of the climbers listed for the Compressor route are Bridwell and Brewer in first place, and Alimonta-Claus and Maestri in brackets. In my view, this is a further example of Rolando Garibotti's bad faith and unfair and dishonest behavior. Because of 20-30 meters, the first repeaters have the credit of almost 2000 m (?) route ... not bad eh ..."

He did the same with Tehuelche, on Fitz Roy.
http://pataclimb.com/climbingareas/chalten/fitzgroup/fitz/tehuelche.html
He called me from Luca M's house and I remember I told him:
"you are stretching the truth at your convenience".
As far as I know he did not call Marco Sterni and Luca Barbolini to get confirmation. I reported this thing to Lindsay Griffit of Mountain Info.
Best
E

BASE104

Social climber

An Oil Field

Feb 20, 2012 - 01:00pm PT

Bonatti would have never done what Maestri did to Cerro Torre.

Look at the Ferrari Route on Cerro Torre. I think Hayden Kennedy did that last year, but couldn't do the mushroom, so failed.

I saw an unreal photograph of that attempt. That route looks unreal. An ice wonderland. Very beautiful.

MarkWestman

Trad climber

Talkeetna, Alaska

Feb 20, 2012 - 02:44pm PT

Because of 20-30 meters, the first repeaters have the credit of almost 2000 m (?) route ... not bad eh ...

Hardly unprecedented. In 1912, Belmore Brown and Herschel Parker turned back less than 100 vertical feet and about 5 minutes walk from Denali's then-unclimbed summit due to winds bringing them to their hands and knees. They emphasized that they did not summit and made no claim to have made the first ascent of North America's highest peak, which could have brought them great fame and accolades. One of the most honorable acts in mountaineering. The complete ascent was made the following year and that team was given credit for the route. Browne and Parker applauded them.

If you are making a bid for a first peak ascent, then more than ever, the ascent ends on the highest point. Everything else is an attempt.

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Feb 20, 2012 - 04:06pm PT

^^^^ Exactly.

Which is why one could conjecture that one of the reasons Maestri did not go to the top of the SE ridge is because he had already (ostensibly) bagged the first ascent of the peak. Back then, there was doubt about the 1959 misadventure, but not the outright dismissal that is prevalent today.

In other words, because summits were so important, then more than now, perhaps his intentional not going to the top in 1971 was a way to say to all, "I've already been there".

MH2

climber

Feb 20, 2012 - 04:45pm PT

If you are making a bid for a first peak ascent, then more than ever, the ascent ends on the highest point. Everything else is an attempt.

True. As a rock climber, the goal for me is to complete a route, not to get to the highest point.

I think most climbers try to serve 2 masters: a personal idea of success that is a reward in and of itself, and an impersonal standard of success that will be respected by others. If you keep what you do to yourself you don't need to worry much about the standards and the rules and you can have your anarchy, but Maestri and others who compare their achievements with the broader community can't have it both ways. Personal success must conform to a recognized standard, an international standard in the case of Cerro Torre. I see what Maestri did on Cerro Torre as signs of internal conflict and failure to resolve personal contradictions. So do a lot of other climbers. It got messy.

Don't let Maestri put the monkey on your back. Thanks to Drs. Kennedy and Kruk for the chop-therapy.

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 20, 2012 - 04:54pm PT

The signatures down under do not add anything. It's just a popularity test. Many excellent climbers and celebrities being happy about the result of the chopping. The ethical thinking behind the chopping was and will always remain shallow - no consensus and self-aggrandizing self-sealing reasoning like "tearing down the Berlin Wall" (K&Ks words) and "revenge" (my word) for a "rape" (K&Ks word).

The chopping is no therapy, it's a new failure.

The signatures from Climb Magazine:
"We, some of the many climbers who have devoted much energy over the last decades to climbing in the Fitz Roy and Cerro Torre massifs, shaping the region's climbing history, are in full support of the bolt removal:

Jorge Ackermann, Tomy Aguilo, Conrad Anker, Bjorn-Eivind Artun, Trym Atle Saeland, Scott Backes, Scott Bennett, Bjarte Bø, Carlos Botazzi, Martin Boysen, John Bragg, Ben Bransby, Chris Brazeau, Phil Burke, Tommy Caldwell, Ramiro Calvo, Ben Campbell-Kelly, Rab Carrington, Dave Carman, Robert Caspersen, Andy Cave, Yvon Chouinard, Carlos Comesaña, Kelly Cordes, Inaki Coussirat, Pete Crew, Sebastian De la Cruz, Alejandro Di Paola, Leo Dickinson, Ben Ditto, Jim Donini, Martin Donovan, Dana Drummond, Magnus Eriksson, Gabriel Fava, Nico Favresse, Silvia Fitzpatrick, Ralf Gantzhorn, Rolando Garibotti, Stefan Gatt, Chris Geisler, Jon Gleason, Gustavo Glickman, Milena Gomez, Colin Haley, Brian Hall, Kennan Harvey, Jorge Insua, Peter Janschek, Hans Johnstone, Neil Kauffman, Joel Kauffman, Hayden Kennedy, Michael Kennedy, Andy Kirkpatrick, Jason Kruk, Ole Lied, Whit Magro, Klemen Mali, Carlitos Molina, Marius Morstad, Avo Naccachian, Fermin Olaechea, Marius Olsen, Ian Parnell, Luciano Pera, Korra Pesce, Doerte Pietron, Michal Pitelka, Kate Rutherford, Mikey Schaefer, Stephan Siegrist, Pedro Skvarca, Zack Smith, Bruno Sourzac, Rick Sylvester, Jim Toman, Doug Tompkins, Jvan Tresch, Roberto Treu, Sean Villanueva, Adam Wainwright, Eamon Walsh, Jon Walsh, Josh Wharton, Andres Zegers

We also support the removal of the Compressor Route bolts:

Vince Anderson, Chris Bonington, Mick Fowler, Steve House, Heinz Mariacher, Reinhold Messner, Paul Pritchard, Sonnie Trotter, Mark Twight"

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Feb 20, 2012 - 05:13pm PT

The chopping is no therapy, it's a new failure.

On the contrary, it's an uncompleted success.

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 20, 2012 - 05:46pm PT

Well, the chopping based on shallow ethical reasoning may possibly be a healing therapy for some people. Then something good comes out of the failure. I'm happy for you Healyje.

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 20, 2012 - 07:17pm PT

Bruce

You say: "well if it makes you any happier consider us moral relativists!
or as we like to say, a half dozen wrongs finally made half a right"

At least that's good machiavellianism - half a dozen arrogant shallow ethical judgements leading to actions leading to a half-right result. The half-right result being the justification of the half a dozen arrogant shallow ethical judgements and actions.

ncianca

climber

Feb 20, 2012 - 07:44pm PT

I have to confess I haven't read all the almost 2000 messages in this topic... that's a lot of messages and I apologise in advance if I am going to repeat what has already been said.

In my humble opinion K&K will be remembered more for the chopping than for their climb. Just like Maestri is in fact remembered more for the Compressor route than for anything else. Was it worth it? It certainly wasn't worth it for Maestri to bolt the Compressor route. Time will tell.

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Feb 20, 2012 - 08:08pm PT

In my humble opinion K&K will be remembered more for the chopping than for their climb. Just like Maestri is in fact remembered more for the Compressor route than for anything else. Was it worth it? It certainly wasn't worth it for Maestri to bolt the Compressor route. Time will tell.

If they finish their attempted new route on North Twin (obviously a big if there), anyone who actually cares about hard alpine climbing will remember them more for that.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 21, 2012 - 02:52am PT

@Merkwestman,

There is a difference between stepping above the highest rocky point in proximity of an icy bulge and 100 feet below the rocky summit.

However, this is not the point. There is a difference between the route and the summit. You cannot attribute a line so someone else, just because he went a few meters above after you. That's bad faith and dishonesty!
It's like if on El Cap I claim a FA just because I'll go a few meters above the point reached by the climbers who set up the route. It's just ridiculous!!!

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 21, 2012 - 02:54am PT

Jim

You say: "Marlow You complain too much"
Answer: Jim, you are free to complain to Marlow. But I don't complain. What you see is ethical reflection. I make distinctions where a lot of climbers just laugh and sign.

Porkchop_express

Trad climber

Southwest for the winter

Feb 21, 2012 - 03:49am PT

This may have been mentioned already and I am no ethical giant--but wouldnt the chopping have made more sense in terms of "righting a wrong" if it were done on the lead as opposed to on rappel?

The difference between placing bolts on rap vs removing them on rap seems a bit arbitrary to me--and maybe that is the heart of the argument--that so much of this is arbitrary in the first place. Is there actually a difference that makes one egregious and the other ok?

For the record, I haven't placed bolts, and I haven't chop any. I wouldn't do either unless I was pretty damn sure it was really called for--and so far, so good.

Steve Richert

Porkchop_express

Trad climber

Southwest for the winter

Feb 21, 2012 - 04:06am PT

Not trying to be thick, but I'm afraid I might need a bit more elaboration, Jim--but I appreciate your patience!

Steve

Porkchop_express

Trad climber

Southwest for the winter

Feb 21, 2012 - 04:41am PT

Haha right on. I'd love to have a go at the Torres. Maybe after my year of training is done! But 5.11 A2 isn't prohibitive so it could happen!

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 21, 2012 - 04:44am PT

Jim

Quotes, slogans and quick witticisms like "Respect for the past must include respect for the future", "rape", "tearing down The Berlin Wall", the "atrocity", "heroes", clapping and laughing doesn't equal ethical reflection. The first quote excepted, the rest of the words and actions from the pro-choppers are just food for the mob.

And I am not saying that all climbers are acting in this way. What Colin has written is an honest article containing after-rationalizations of K&Ks ethical thinking and actions.

ncianca

climber

Feb 21, 2012 - 05:09am PT

If they finish their attempted new route on North Twin (obviously a big if there), anyone who actually cares about hard alpine climbing will remember them more for that.

It goes without saying that "anyone who actually cares about hard alpine climbing" will always know the ins and outs of what world class climbers and mountaineers have really done in their careers. Search Cerro Torre on Wikipedia (just one of thousands of non-specialized "media", but quite a popular one). You will see how K&K's ascent is reported and how much the chopping weighs compared to the ascent itself and their definition of "fair means".

MarkWestman

Trad climber

Talkeetna, Alaska

Feb 21, 2012 - 01:15pm PT

There is a difference between the route and the summit. You cannot attribute a line so someone else, just because he went a few meters above after you. That's bad faith and dishonesty!

If there is still hard climbing above your high point, you didn't finish the line. The final mushroom has vertical ice. This seems pretty clear.

Dishonesty would be claiming you finished a route when you didn't. It gets worse when you start rationalizing that the remaining difficulties weren't so hard or that you didn't care about summitting all along. Just state what you did- that's the most honorable thing you can do, nothing more or less.

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 22, 2012 - 03:37am PT

@Markwestman,

This is translated from the Maestri's book "Duemila metri della nostra vita".

"We are approaching the ice of the terminal cap. ABove our head a little snow cornice suggests us to cross in diagonal towards a tongue of ice, which will allow us to climb up more easily towards the summit. I place the last "pressure bolts" and I attack the ice securing myself with very long pitons manufactured by ourselves. I allow Ezio to go up to be closer to me and to secure me in a better way. He stops in the last "pressure bolts"; while he climbs it starts snowing. Also Carlo goes up and in an instant, suddenly, a rumpus kicks up. I have inside me the terror that everything will happen like many years ago. Then, at that time, the tragedy started in the same way. I carry on going up. Now the slope is less steep, but I place anyway my long pitons. The rope finishes. I look around. This is the summit."

Maestri specified where he finished the route, i.e. where there was an easy ground on the icecap, which he considered the summit. Nevertheless, later he specified he didn't climb the mushroom.
Now, how many routes on El Cap end up on the real summit?
Is this a reason to discredit the climbers who opened those routes?
We know that the answer is "no". We know that everybody consider the end of the route where the difficulties finish.
There are even climbers, like Alex Huber, who "create" new routes by linking together previously climbed lines.
This is what Garibotti wrote in his website:

Maestri's team did not reach the summit, stopping some 60 meters short, at the end of the headwall. Maestri dismissed the final ice and snow section by commenting: “Its just a lump of ice, not really part of the mountain, it will blow away one of these days.” It is unclear if Maestri reached the end of the vertical rock as he claims.

He doesn't believe also this Maestri's claim and consider the last of his bolts as the highest point reached by the Maestri's team.
Once again, like in many other of his descriptions, he disbelieves plausible accounts, if they are not supported by an undeniable evidence. Even a picture in the storm, for him, is not sufficient to proof an ascent.

MarkWestman

Trad climber

Talkeetna, Alaska

Feb 22, 2012 - 05:09am PT

We know that everybody consider the end of the route where the difficulties finish.

At the crags- sure.

On a mountain? Not in my book. The end of a route on a mountain peak, to me, is the point where there is no further terrain to ascend. Especially one that is unclimbed. Moving the goalposts when that doesn't work out doesn't change the fact of one's original ambitions.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Feb 22, 2012 - 07:21pm PT

My friend and climbing partner Greg Crouch said it best...."the last meter is the hardest meter." Plenty of climbers have failed to summit after the difficulties have ended because of exhaustion, bad weather etc. and, NO, they did not complete the climb. As Mark said, cragging and climbing a mountain are different.

MH2

climber

Feb 22, 2012 - 07:36pm PT

cragging and climbing a mountain are different

Yes, but can you please go on to connect that to the Compressor route? Did Maestri not recognize the difference? Did he ignore it? Did he claim credit for the mountain?

In my view the bolts were the problem, not whether he got to the top.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Feb 22, 2012 - 07:46pm PT

Let's allow a little thread drift, when I'm on topic here no one seems to give a damn.

MarkWestman

Trad climber

Talkeetna, Alaska

Feb 22, 2012 - 07:56pm PT

Sorry, I helped pull it off topic. Enzolino was complaining about Bridwell and Brewer getting the FA credit for finishing the route Maestri attempted in 1970.

SGropp

Mountain climber

Eastsound, Wa

Feb 23, 2012 - 12:22am PT

I for one, really appreciate it when people that have actually been there and climbed the route post to this thread.

What is the condition of the Bridwell/ Brewer finish on the final headwall ? Fixed heads, pins and rivets ?

More pictures please !

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 23, 2012 - 05:38am PT

@SGropp,
this is from the Buscaini and Metzelin book (Ed. 1987).
You can see the Maestri pressure bolts and Bridwell-Brewer rivets.

Kinobi

climber

Feb 23, 2012 - 02:45pm PT

with reference to:
"At the crags- sure.

On a mountain? Not in my book. The end of a route on a mountain peak, to me, is the point where there is no further terrain to ascend. Especially one that is unclimbed. Moving the goalposts when that doesn't work out doesn't change the fact of one's original ambitions. "

OT: in Dolomiti, we very, very often never get to the summit, usually a pile of rotten rock. Once the route clearly ends, we get out and we descent.
I never summited a Dolomiti peak and never will.
Best,
E

Tahoe climber

climber

Davis these days

Feb 23, 2012 - 02:51pm PT

I liked Rock and Ice's comments in the CT for Dummies article. Quoted below.
I also liked Largo's comments on another thread - "you want to count? rope up and cast off."

TC

But I understand that you are a hardcore climber—you don’t have money; you don’t like to read anything longer than an 8a.nu comment; magazines are for gumbies, etc.—and so here I will offer you a slimmed-down (though not dumbed-down) guide to this ethical conundrum. Because, after thinking about it every day for the last month, I’ve actually come to realize that this issue isn’t that impossible to understand. In fact, even a dummy can “get” Cerro Torre, if it’s properly explained. Allow moi to do so:

A lot of bolts were placed up a beautiful, hard mountain. No one liked the way the bolts were placed, and a lot of people said the bolts weren’t necessary to climb the peak. As years passed, the original sting faded as people continued to rely on the bolts to get to the top—because that’s what everyone else before them had done, and they wanted to get their summit, too. Finally, the route was climbed without the “bad” bolts. Less than one third of the bolts were taken out. Five days later, the route was climbed again without the bolts, this time for its first free ascent. Twice in one week, a new generation of climbers proved that the bolts weren’t necessary to climb this mountain. End of story. What’s the big problem?

MarkWestman

Trad climber

Talkeetna, Alaska

Feb 23, 2012 - 03:09pm PT

Kinobi- Ultimately, whatever makes for a safe and personally meaningful adventure, and which avoids or minimizes lasting imprint on the environment, is what matters most...

d_ice

Ice climber

Tùrin

Feb 24, 2012 - 04:54am PT

What about the compressor? Is it still there?
It's late

d_ice

Ice climber

Tùrin

Feb 24, 2012 - 04:55am PT

//"il problema è proprio questo: certa gente, certi bòciasse, non conoscono, non sanno...
=> no 'i capìxe un caso"//
[cit. IlDrugo]
per il 2000
è presto
vai sciampic!

Snorky

Trad climber

Carbondale, CO

Feb 24, 2012 - 10:07am PT

The Italian-English mistranslations went so well earlier in the thread. War almost broke out. Thanks for bringing that action back, d_ice.

Nothing discourages dialogue like speaking to an audience in a language you know they don't understand.

Just to clear things up: here's the Google translation: "/ / "the problem is this: certain people, certain bòciasse not know, do not know ...
=> No 'i capìxe a case "/ /
[cit. IlDrugo]
for 2000
is soon
sciampic vai!"

Oh, of course!

If you don't make the slightest effort to be understood, then you won't be.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Feb 24, 2012 - 10:23am PT

I would rather see some co-operation on translation than exclusionary comments.

EDIT, Can somebody help out here?

Drugo Lebowsky

Ice climber

Treviso

Feb 24, 2012 - 11:26am PT

excuse me, who is snobby??? zio can...

if I write in an italian forum, it is normal that I can speak in my slang, in my dialect.

hower, imho K&K are young, brave, good climbers, but they don't know a c*#k of the historical process that today permit us to define what are the correct
styles to open or to repeat a mountain route.

Ps: excuse me for my english

pps: d_ice vaffanculo, cosa cazzo riporti qua una mia frase di FV??

Kinobi

climber

Feb 24, 2012 - 01:48pm PT

Ostia! (typical expression in venetian).
The fellow bloke Drugo Lebowsky is friend of mine talking the old language of Venetian People.
Some expressions he used have no translation in English.
I try to do my best.

The original reply of Drugo came after my post on an italian Forum.
My post was, to somebody asking what has happend to the compressor:
"I hope the compressor will stay there forever. You can't take out the "wrooommm" of Pedrini". I suggesto to watch video "Cumbre".http://www.montagna.tv/cms/?p=25571
The Drugo said, in our mother language.
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_veneta
"For who remember it!
That's the problem, some people, some young guys, they don't know, they don't understand.
X**X*S*" typical venetial expressione for "what the f*#k".
Bociassa is a venetial word coming from "Bocia" which means "kid".

Best,
E

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Feb 24, 2012 - 02:04pm PT

Thank you kindly Kinobi.

Interesting.

And Cumbre was a really inspiring film.

Kinobi

climber

Feb 24, 2012 - 02:49pm PT

I am sure, if he had it that time, Marco Pedrini would have carried a Leovince silencer for the compressor.
The compressor must stay there.
Everybody getting there, can sit and roar the magnificient "wroooommmm".
Ciao,
E

rampik

Social climber

the alps

Feb 24, 2012 - 02:52pm PT

assist

rampik

Social climber

the alps

Feb 24, 2012 - 02:53pm PT

two thousand

rampik

Social climber

the alps

Feb 24, 2012 - 02:54pm PT

thanks kinobi

Kinobi

climber

Feb 24, 2012 - 03:10pm PT

Stay tuned for 3000.
E

Marcelo

Mountain climber

Singapore

Feb 24, 2012 - 10:00pm PT

Jenny stated In a sense, Italians do own Argentina. Half of the country's population are of Italian heritage.

I'm not sure how Argentinians feel about U.S. and Canadian climbers...but most Argentines are descended from colonial-era settlers and of the 19th and 20th century immigrants from Europe, and 86.4% of Argentina’s population self-identify as White-European descent. An estimated 8% of the population is mestizo, and a further 4% of Argentines were of Arab or East Asian heritage. In the last national census, based on self-identification, 600,000 Argentines (1.6%) declared to be Amerindians.

Even numbers are pretty accurate, I don't think than descending from can be assumed as being owned by. If that's the case then UK climbers will be free to do whatever they like in Yosemite.

In any case I think is better to consider mountains and other natural beauties independent of the countries and specially the politics. It will make them less poluted by sure.

Marcelo

Mountain climber

Singapore

Feb 25, 2012 - 10:47am PT

Enzolino quoted When Doug Scott, Peter Boardman and Joe Tasker claimed that they summited Kangchenjunga, but they actually arrived four meters from the real tip of the mountain, I don't say that they are liars. I understand that for them they reached the summit, and that they are honest about their account.

This is completely different. From the 1st British ascent of George Band and Joe Brown, it was established that climbers will not put their feet on the real summit respecting the sacred status of the mountain for the Sikkim people. And that's what most of the summiters do. Is a completely different case than the others mentioned before and shows a valuable level of respect to the local beliefs.

Studly

Trad climber

Feb 25, 2012 - 11:00am PT

In the antique and collectible business there are many items from the past that now we look back on and laugh or are shocked at their bias or lack of knowledge or ability.
But we don't destroy these items, and the reason is simply because they are history, and they speak of a time gone by, and they allow us to reflect on what went on before us.
To destroy is to take the past from everyone, even those who do not appreciate it.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Feb 25, 2012 - 11:11am PT

Kind of like Love Canal. Leave it be it's history.

TwistedCrank

climber

Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom

Feb 25, 2012 - 11:59am PT

Argentines are Italians who speak Spanish, think they're like the French and act like they're British.

TwistedCrank

climber

Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom

Feb 25, 2012 - 12:35pm PT

Islas Malvinas son Argentinas

Kinobi

climber

Feb 25, 2012 - 01:50pm PT

With reference to:

here is plenty of evidence that Maestri didn't complete the 1959 climb. There is NO evidence that he did. What is proof if not the weight of the evidence?
...
. And, since there is no evidence of the 1959 climb, the honesty of his character is the only thing supporting that claim. And it turns out he has the character of a combative child, and it seems doubtful that he can speak honestly about anything, let alone his claims to fame. Has anyone ever given a nastier interview about their great life-defining feat?

If he had really intended to prove his 1959 claims, he would have launched expeditions to repaeta the 1959 route and/or find Egger's body and camera (and bring it home with dignity), not bolt a via ferrata up the headwall (as that demonstrates NOTHING about his previous attempt, except for his wholesale conversion from alpine to siege style).

The obvious reason he didn't attempt to repeat the 1959 route was that he knew he could never climb it. His overwhelming hybris could not allow such a result as total failure.

We speak of the "murder of the impossible" and of the death of fair means, but those are abstract concepts. What of the death of Egger and the circumstances surrounding it? If Maestri's other claims regarding the 1959 climb are false, why would he be telling the truth about what happened to Egger? There is evidence that they did not agree about climbing strategy (Egger favored single alpine push, Maestri wanted to fix more rope). There is evidence that Maestri has a very volatile temper. Clearly, Egger fell from the mountain, that is true. But when a real man falls out of a cartoon, what are we supposed to believe?

Maybe Maestri thinks about that a lot.

Fava knows what happened up there. Doesn't want to talk about it. Why not?
...
With such a great tradition of European alpinism, and so many truly inspiring climbers to idolize, this is your hero? This is history? This is who you spend your energy defending? Is this an example to hold up to the world and say "An Italian proudly made this in error, and it must therefore stay forever!"
...
Someone (can't remember who) posted that the pro-chopping crowd has an irrational, religious-like belief in some impossible ideal. I would turn that assertion around and say that Maestri's defenders are much more religious, having blind faith in ridiculous magical events that have no evidence in reality and in fact perpetuate a pernicious tradition of man subjugating nature to his own narrow interest, specifically for the achievement of his own glorified immortality. And they will go to war over these disputed events, even while admitting the fundamental claims should not be taken literally. Sounds exactly like religion to me."//

Dear Snorky,
how are you?

I got to know about this post only today.
Let me inform you in something...
a) for example, myselft, did not believe Messner and his first VIII degree rock climbing ever made, and I refer to the route on Sass dla Cruz, together with many more other strong (and good) climbers. I have repeted his route twice, among a lot of other strong climbers, always avoiding the "cruz". The first time I did it I was with Nicola Tondini, who returned on the route this year, and proved we were a buch of nerds not being able to do the move Messner did. Well, start right foot first, and not left one as "logical". It is in fact even easier than VIII...
http://www.planetmountain.com/News/shownews1.lasso?l=1&keyid=37706
May be the same fate can happen to Maestri's 1959 route. Sometimes the obvious, is not that obvious.
b) Cesarino Fava spoke many times in favour of 1959 route. If you do not belive me, you can ask to Mark Synnot and Jeff Achey which interview him, with me as translater. It's all taped. In cased you need, it's about time to do mp3. Cesarino now is dead.
b.2) in that circumstance, Maurizio Giarolli told exactly that from "Cristalli nel Viento", he rappeled down one pitch on Egger-Maestri and the ground looked "very doable". Maurizio Giarolli is a very strong veteran of Patagonia. Of course it does not match to what Ermanno Salvaterra said they following day, again to Achey and Synnot.
b.3) Maestri annd Fava said many times, the '59 route was Egger's. Egger was the leader, the ice masters that was dragging Maestri up. Ask Synnot and Achey.
c) Not everybody in Italy likes what Maestri did in 1970, myself included. Still, I believe he deserves respect for what he had the balls to do (by any mean and by any standard). And I believe that everybody needs to repesct the elderly.
d) Maestri, the hunman being, is having a very, very hard time himself. Of course it's a coincidence with the chopping, but unless you clearly claim he is an assassin, he deserve, in this specific time, a lot of respect and support.
e) in our laws you are innocent unless proven guilty. Like Coz said to Donini, "show me the proofs".

Finally I personally drove up to his house (3 hours, either way) to bring him my support. A pat on the shoulder that he deserves. In either way, belivers of '59 and non belivers, haters or lovers of 1970's Compressor, Cesare Maestri gave me a lot of inspiration, that, once more, I believe he deserve more respect.
And people should stop talking craps if they don't know.

Best,
Emanuele Pellizzari

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Feb 25, 2012 - 02:08pm PT

@kinobi,
great post!!! Greetings to Maestri when you'll see him from an "unknown supporter". He also inspired me a lot. For me great mountaineers are not those who achieve, but those who inspire a lot. It would be also very nice to have the Synott interview published somewhere.

@Marcelo,

Thanks for the correction.
What I wanted to enphasize was the pedantic and formal attitude to attribute achievements in mountaineering. Looking at the finger and forgetting the moon. Maestri didn't climb the mushroom (the second time), but he did an epic ascent. I don't remember the context, but probably this was the issue I wanted to enphasize.

rampik

Social climber

the alps

Feb 25, 2012 - 02:26pm PT

già che ci siamo, buon 2012

ckalous

Trad climber

Colorado

Mar 3, 2012 - 10:00pm PT

Yo,
I don't hang tough over here on Supertopo too often. You know us CO guys, its a mad mad Mountain Project world. But I did read this entire thread in one sitting in preparation for an interview with Hayden Kennedy. I think a teeny bit of my soul dissipated that night, but amongst the brutal name calling, veiled threats, and wild speculation are some truly great posts.

Many have wondered many things about Jason and Hayden's thinking and actions in Patagonia. Well, here it is from the source. Enjoy.

http://enormocast.com/episode-6-hayden-kennedy-alpine-taliban-or-patagonian-custodian-part-1/

Chris Kalous

bmacd

Boulder climber

100% Canadian

Mar 3, 2012 - 11:58pm PT

I thought a team of waitresses from El Chaten went up on Cerro Torre last weekend and rebolted the the bolt ladder on the headwall, then descended to the Tore Eggar col and traversed out over the "lesser summits" back to the coffee shop just before closing time ??????

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Mar 4, 2012 - 02:14am PT

If you ever saw the waitress competition in Flagstaff, where local waitresses manoeuvre through obstacle courses with trays of glasses, you wouldn't think the above was too farfetched. Seriously, there was some amazing fitness there.

groaz

Big Wall climber

italy

Mar 8, 2012 - 05:12pm PT

In short time will come an important replay about the idea of cleaning the Maestri's route. You can read what think Jim Bridwell on planetmountain.com , but be patient people, wait for this few hours more... Bye.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Mar 8, 2012 - 05:23pm PT

Bridwell will be just another person lending his opinion, little new or substantive has come to this thread since it's inception. People have lined up pro or con ad nauseum- time to put this thread to bed, it has become similar to religious and political threads where people are polarized and intransigent about their views.

groaz

Big Wall climber

italy

Mar 8, 2012 - 05:50pm PT

But, Donini, the Maestri's route is ... the Bridwell's route! what he think about his route is very important. All the best.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Mar 8, 2012 - 05:55pm PT

He did do the first alpine ascent and there is the question of the last few meters.........

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Mar 13, 2012 - 01:51am PT

Did the mythical Bridwell article ever appear? I for one would really like to hear his opinion, as he was really the first to complete the route to the summit.

I mentioned once in this thread that I thought the "intent" was important, and a recent reading of the Brazillian educator and philosopher Paulo Freire (in his book, Pedagogy of the Oppressed) nailed it for me: "I am more convinced that true revolutionaries must perceive the revolution, because of its creative and liberating nature, as an act of love."

This sums up why the disdain for Maestri in these discussions has really has irked me at times...

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Mar 13, 2012 - 02:51am PT

"I am more convinced that true revolutionaries must perceive the revolution, because of its creative and liberating nature, as an act of love."

With all due respect, for me that quote exactly highlights all that was wrong with Maetri's choices. The man is whomever he decides to be, my only problem is with the physical outcomes of his choices, none of which were creative and seem more born of a desperate act of self-love or Ahabian obsession. The renegade is enduring cultural iconastry, but in this case 'anything goes' took on a whole new and rather unsavory meaning.

The cad

climber

Does it matter, really?!?

Mar 13, 2012 - 08:38am PT

Read Jim Bridwell's point of view on the Compressor Route saga on PlanetMountain.com
A worth read.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Mar 13, 2012 - 09:02am PT

Jim Bridwell who?... should be another italian patriot defending the honor of old Cesare, boring :-/

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Mar 13, 2012 - 09:19am PT

Now that was an interesting read, and with no shortage of simmering political sentiment behind almost every paragraph (hell, some of it almost borders on OT).

And though I do agree with some of what he says, and especially this:

Bridwell: You may say; excitement can be had in the security of an amusement park; which is not unlike the controlled environment of sport climbing.

With regard to an absolute and inviolate sanctity of FAs I would have to again, respectfully, disagree. Taking him at his word in that letter would mean he had and has no problem with the Jardine traverse, or indeed with anyone heading out tomorrow and chiseling their way up the Captain on an FA attempt. And, as seen in other threads in the past couple of days, if bolting on holds is someone's FA style then one would have to presume that's inviolate as well.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all about FAs and hold them in incredibly high esteem and sanctity; but to suggest there are no edge cases, debacles, or atrocities sufficient to warrant a cleanup is certainly an 'exceptional' stance by any standard. Doubly so given he talks at length about the distinction between the 'ideal' versus living in the real world, seeming to lean heavily to the pragmatic in the process. If that is the case, FAs being inviolate under any and absolutely all circumstances then seems a highly idealistic pedestal indeed for a guy who otherwise appears to eschew such high-minded abstractions.

Last, I suppose even after an extraordinary life, one is ultimately left feeling as "normal" as the next guy - but I'm going to have to go out on a limb here and suggest the life he has led and the legacy he has left is anything, but "normal".

justthemaid

climber

Jim Henson's Basement

Mar 13, 2012 - 09:26am PT

I'm just a nuetral-opinioned lurker but that Jim article dragged me out of the closet. Finally we get to hear his word on the subject.

A worth read.

.. Worth a Meh.

I got about 2 paragraphs in before I had to stop and go get my galoshes to wade through the literary quagmire. That article is all over the friggin' place.

Cliff notes: After Jim got done with equating the actions of just two individuals with the decline of civilization as we know it and throwing in an Einstein quote... then after a further 10-15 paragraphs of about the history of mountaineering,war, social evolution, and more quotes from the Constitution...

Jim says chopping other peoples bolts is bad. OK. Whew. Got it. Opinion noted.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Mar 13, 2012 - 09:37am PT

But with regard to the absolute and inviolate sanctity of FAs I would have to again, respectfully, disagree.

strange it may seems to you, I also disagree. FA is not sacred, style could be "bad". Some "evident" use of unproportionate means can eventually be emended. But only when there is CONSENSUS. Consensus among all, either those who care only (whorship?) about a piece of rock and those who care about history, and those... you got the point? It is the unilateral action and the childish later justification that got some people angry, not f*#king nationalism honor or other bullshits like that

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Mar 13, 2012 - 09:40am PT

Jim says chopping other peoples bolts is bad. OK. Whew. Got it.

Jim says that lots of US citizens are ignorant, unfortunately, he's right.

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Mar 13, 2012 - 10:04am PT

Statements like these don't help the credibility of Bridwell's arguments.

you don't need to believe his arguments, just try to understand what he's saying...

then you may agree or not

TwistedCrank

climber

Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho

Mar 13, 2012 - 10:24am PT

I'd like to read the Cliff Notes version of Bridwell's rambling.

BlackSpider

Ice climber

Mar 13, 2012 - 10:30am PT

Bridwell's rant on the fall of American civilization might be easier to take if he realized Jason Kruk was from Canada, not the USA.

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Mar 13, 2012 - 10:36am PT

Bridwell's article:
http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?l=2&keyid=39298

"I do know that a couple of years ago, two Americans climbed the ice behind the ice tower and assumed this gave them the license to remove the bolts from this section of the original Maestri's route, because their variation required no addition of bolts. This type of arrogance is usually the provincial ignorance of youthful inexperience - ignorance not to be confused with stupidity or lack of intellectual acuity, ignorance is lack knowledge. Perception defines a person's perspective of physical reality and forms opinion. One thing is certain: unless a free people are educated - taught to think intelligently and plan wisely - freedom usually does more harm than good."

Jaybro

Social climber

Wolf City, Wyoming

Mar 13, 2012 - 11:34am PT

Planet mountain has no copy editors?

rectorsquid

climber

Lake Tahoe

Mar 13, 2012 - 11:55am PT

...unless a free people are educated - taught to think intelligently and plan wisely - freedom usually does more harm than good."

Educated people are like educated dogs, they can do some neat tricks but might still be very dumb. There's a bit of arrogance in thinking that smarter and more educated people would know enough to do anything right. I think that people do not have the capacity to do what is best for our species even with a good education.

Those bolts are a billion times smaller than most of the worlds problems, physically and philosophically. Using those bolts as a basis for evaluating the intelligence, knowledge, and humility of the FA or of the choppers is weak at best. Using those bolts as a basis for commentary on the state of the human species makes sense but in the way that is being done. It is the commentary itself that show what type of people we all are.

Dave

deschamps

Trad climber

Out and about

Mar 13, 2012 - 12:45pm PT

Jim says that lots of US citizens are ignorant, unfortunately, he's right.

Unfortunately that is the case all over the world. There is no reason to single out a particular nationality considering that this is the case everywhere.

WBraun

climber

Mar 13, 2012 - 02:20pm PT

Bridwell

In the end this matter will be decided in the court of public opinion. Presently, I am ashamed to be an American, but this is not the America in which I was born.

I will go further and renounce my citizenship to this new nation.

"And after all, no nation can transcend the moral values of it citizenry as exemplified in their chosen leaders.

Ignorance and selfishness will insure the downfall of even the highest type of government." God imposes man disposes.

Interesting ......

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Mar 13, 2012 - 02:23pm PT

Maybe he's headed back to Cortina d'Ampezzo...?

WBraun

climber

Mar 13, 2012 - 02:27pm PT

The first ascent is an adventure unique from all experiences thereafter which confers;

the choice of route,

the style and ethics of the ascent and the freedom to choose any and all methods necessary for the prevailing conditions.

The first ascent is the standard and legacy of fellow humans for a given moment in history.

It is for all others to maintain, not to change.

Ignorance and selfishness will insure the downfall of even the highest type of government."

God imposes man disposes.

More interesting stuff ......

uli__

climber

Milan, Italy

Mar 14, 2012 - 01:26am PT

Maybe he's headed back to Cortina d'Ampezzo...?

toldya, antother boring italian patriota defending "delitto d'onore"...

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Mar 14, 2012 - 06:07am PT

Wow! Undoubtably, one of Bridwell's best pieces ever. And he has had some fascinating ideas in his time.

Perhaps a bit extreme in the America bashing though--America's got one thing going for it, and that's the entrepreneurial spirit, which may someday help fix the current political mess.

I reckon yanks will have one more go before their number is up. Don't give up on America just yet, Jim....

enzolino

climber

Galgenen, Switzerland

Mar 14, 2012 - 07:36am PT

Bridwell's article is bit long. I agree on his accusation on the ignorance and arrogance of these two boys. A bit less on some of his arguments ...

Furthermore it shows other facts. For example, that is not about a national issue, but mainly about a perception and sensitivity of what climbing history means, and its respect for good and less good past achievements ...

By the way ... hey ... Jim ... if you want an Italian citizenship ... you are welcome ... there are still plenty of routes you can open in the Alps ... :-)

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Mar 14, 2012 - 09:35am PT

Jim says that lots of US citizens are ignorant, unfortunately, he's right.

I agree wholeheartedly with the post that says this is not limited to Americans. Yes, there are lots of ignorant Americans, but it certainly isn't limited to American citizens. Ignorant people all over the world brother.

And Bridwell is known as our balls out climbing hero, not one of the leading intellectuals of our time......

He's got more room to spew about the compressor route than most of us, but the whole of the USA and the downfall of civilization? Geebus, gimme a break. What exactly has he done to move the human race forward except stroke his exceptional climbing dong?

Bridwell:

Certainly I would need far more knowledge of what these American climbers did on the climb, to render more than what would amount to ignorant prejudice.

And then he goes on....

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Mar 14, 2012 - 10:45am PT

I have to agree with the Canadians. The dead horse, the choppers, were Canadian. At least one of them.

And I have to agree with Bridwell. They were ignorant and it was an aggressive act.

And the clapping and the laughing of old men - that was just the acts of an unthinking mob.

And if this is the situation in America at the moment - polarized aggression, laughing and clapping - the spinning of truth, instead of informed choice as an ideal - well then Bridwell has got a point worth considering there too - I don't find the culture of many European countries to be in such a state.

Edited - MH2: In my view chopping is as well established as is chipping. Climbers know what it is. And chopping may include more that just a "pulling movement" to be able to pull the bolts out. Do you see a problem in the use of the words chopping and chipping?

MH2

climber

Mar 14, 2012 - 11:01am PT

For the last bloody time they were Canucks

As long as we are trying to make things clear, the bolts were pulled, not chopped.

edit:

Do you see a problem in the use of the words chopping and chipping?

The word chopping is inaccurate in this case.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Mar 14, 2012 - 11:20am PT

deuce4: Don't give up on America just yet, Jim....

Heynowwaitadamnminute, aren't you writing this from your new home in Hobart, Tasmania?

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Mar 14, 2012 - 11:47am PT

I don't think that enzolino is aware of Jim's departure from the Cliffhanger set when he suggests he seek Italian citizenship!

That said, despite poor editing, I get what Jim says, and though I don't believe in God it amazes me to see just how much else Jim and I are in agreement on.

I wish I knew how to transfer that photo of Donini and Bridwell in the lawn chairs, reading, from my one TR.
(Or chairman meow's photo of Bridwell taking aim with the rifle)

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Mar 14, 2012 - 12:38pm PT

I would suggest to all climbers of great ambition some positive adjustments in motivational aims, to lean more toward adventure and mystery and less towards control in the perfection of means. There is no adventure in climbing comparable to a first ascent. If climbers want to prove their virtuosity and prowess, this purpose would best be served in doing their own first ascent. But they should be prepared for the judgement from future self-righteous climbers to bring vengeance upon their route.

He could've just left it at that, a good paragraph.

Edit: Largo, why'd you take your post out?

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Mar 14, 2012 - 01:31pm PT

I don't think that enzolino is aware of Jim's departure from the Cliffhanger set when he suggests he seek Italian citizenship!

I think the Spanish were as much to blame...

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Mar 14, 2012 - 08:58pm PT

I really think Jim's line of thought has some brilliance. It's about ideas, not about punctuation, don't you think? And there's some mighty ideas in that piece, rarely seen in climbing literature. Not quite as refined as John Long's deeper connections, but there nevertheless. You don't have to agree with everything he says to see that the piece contains some deep thought on the meaning and purposes of climbing, and it comes from someone who has lived it on the edge beyond most people's comprehension.

Stewart Johnson

climber

lake forest

Mar 14, 2012 - 09:23pm PT

im raising my pint to jim.

ms55401

Trad climber

minneapolis, mn

Mar 14, 2012 - 09:34pm PT

Bridwell is the real deal, but after reading this, and being nonpartisan until now, I'm with the Canadian and Canadian-American.

Brian in SLC

Social climber

Salt Lake City, UT

Mar 14, 2012 - 11:44pm PT

Luca Signorelli

Mountain climber

Courmayeur (Vda) Italy

Mar 25, 2012 - 04:39pm PT

Unfortunately, some awful news (nothing to do with the Compressor Route). "Enzolino", whose real name was Lorenzo Castaldi, 40 years old, died this morning during a (for him) routine ascension of the north face of Ortles. He was avalanched together with three other climbers. He and a 35 years old Spanish man died, while the other two survived.

Lorenzo was born in Sardinia, but he has moved from many years to Zurich, where he had married. He is survived by his wife and a two years old son, Manuel. Despite not being known outside Italy, he was an excellent all rounder with a prestigious resume as a rock climber and mountaineer. He was well known into the Italian climbing community because of his talent and his energetic and often abrasive personality, and I believe he'll be greatly missed.

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Mar 25, 2012 - 04:44pm PT

I'm so sorry to hear. RIP Lorenzo!

the goat

climber

north central WA

Mar 25, 2012 - 05:23pm PT

Very sorry to hear this news, "Enzo" had some real insight on this thread. Has this been a crazy avey year or what?!!

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Mar 25, 2012 - 08:45pm PT

What terrible news.My heart goes out to his family and friends.

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Mar 25, 2012 - 10:05pm PT

Gads, not again. SO SORRY. Condolences to "Enzolino" and his family.

The cad

climber

Does it matter, really?!?

Mar 26, 2012 - 01:38am PT

Here is a document by Lorenzo (from Alpinist's web site): http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web12w/readers-blog-the-beauty-and-the-choppers

Ciao, Enzolino

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Mar 26, 2012 - 03:09am PT

That's a drag, we hadn't yet really gotten to know him...

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Mar 26, 2012 - 11:55am PT

Luca Signorelli, perhaps you would consider putting up an Enzollino appreciation thread so we can learn more about him. I know I appreciated his input and perspective here on SuperTopo.

Luca Signorelli

Mountain climber

Courmayeur (Vda) Italy

Mar 26, 2012 - 04:00pm PT

Good idea

Tibu

climber

El Chalten

Jun 27, 2012 - 06:25am PT

Sorry my english is bad.
Rolo hace 5 años quiere sacar los clavos pero buscaba la forma mas limpia,para que los clavos salgan de los agujeros,ej:extractor de clavos a rosca,un elemento usado por mecanicos para sacar bujes.Intentò hacer esto pero fuè imposoble,porque rompe los bolts dentro de la roca dejando un residuo metalico dentro de los agujeros,esto hicieron Hayden y Jason ,"Romper" y "NO" Sacar los clavos .
De los 102 Clavos por lo menos la mitad fueron rotos,NO Extraidos ,iniciando la oxidaciòn de los mismos y la porterior liberaciòn de partìculas color "OXIDO"
Ellos mienten,no limpian Montañas,solo buscan Fama.
Rolo tambien querìa Arruinar los planes de Lama.
El Manejo de la informaciòn de los medios periodìsticos fuè muy malo ya que se utilizò la opiniòn de Rolo,como la verdad absoluta.Pues ocultò informaciòn,Y Alpinist magazine publica solo fragmentos de las entrevistas a Locales guias y escaladores extranjeros,quitando la atenciòn de la verdad.Usaron clavos de Maestri para bajar hicieron solo una variante de salida a la cumbre,no ruta nueva.Espero se arrepientan de lo que hicieron y pidan perdsòn publicamente.Matias Villavicencio

Don Paul

Big Wall climber

Colombia, South America

Jun 27, 2012 - 11:24am PT

solo una variante de salida a la cumbre

He soloed a variant of a cucumber salad?

Seriously, can someone translate please? If it were French, German or Chinese I'd do it.

solo = only

"only a variation of the exit to the summit"

skidrc

Trad climber

Vancouver, BC

Jun 27, 2012 - 11:24am PT

in short (castellano)
Rolo wanted to pull the bolts with a nail puller. Hayden and Jason did not ask for permission. And they didn't "pull" a lot of bolts, but actually broke them, leaving them to rust (oxidize) on the face. Also, did it for fame, not to clean the face, as evident by the leftover rusting bolts on the mountain.

anyways, Im sure you can get more from google translate.

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Jun 27, 2012 - 11:35am PT

"Alpinist magazine publica solo fragmentos de las entrevistas a Locales
guias y escaladores extranjeros,quitando la atenciòn de la verdad.Usaron
clavos de Maestri para bajar hicieron solo una variante de salida a la
cumbre,no ruta nueva.Espero se arrepientan de lo que hicieron y pidan
perdsòn publicamente.Matias Villavicencio"

Alpinist published only fragments of the interviews with the local guides
and foreign climbers, leaving out the real truth. They used Maestris' bolts
to descend only making a variant of the descent, not a new route. I hope
they regret what they did and ask for foregiveness publicly.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Jun 27, 2012 - 11:51am PT

I wonder if it is the same variant.
I soak the cucumbers in sweet rice vinegar with dill, and then add sour creme.

So sad about Lorenzo; just getting to know him.

So when are we going to get the definitive breakdown of what was chopped and how?

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Aug 2, 2012 - 12:35am PT

having just read the Alpinist 39 issue I had some thoughts on what constitutes "rights." As much as I would have liked to have climbed the wonderful Cerro Torre, that isn't probably going to happen for me, my comments are not on the route, but on the nature of what is correct and what is not...
but it is not a philosophical thought, but a practical one.

When you look at what Kennedy-Kruk did it seems totally amazing, particularly the speed with which they did the route, and as they reported, the amount of time they had to pull the bolts, 120, which is in and of itself an amazing number.

These sorts of privileges go to those who can accomplish them... few of us can arrange an expedition to haul the equipment that Maestri deployed on his attempt, few of us can cover the ground that Kennedy-Kruk did, few of us will ever be on that particular mountain, on that route. But those who can generally get to do what they want, to execute in the style that they choose, and connive a route up a mountain, or wall, or cliff, or boulder...

what ever we think, we do believe that those who can are allowed to do...

maybe this is incredibly trite, but I think of the weight of the opinion of those who can't vs. those who can vs. those who do... those who do have much more weight. They put there ass out over the abyss, they ante up, and they win or loose.

How could you deny them the winnings?

The act of Kennedy-Kruk is beyond my judgement, I am not denied a route that I wouldn't be on... they did not rob history, we still have that. But because they could, and they felt strongly, and they accomplished the route,

and then had time to pursue this activity of bolt chopping,

we have no choice but to accept their decision whether we think it was good or bad. They were capable of it.

And that means everything.

If you're capable of going back up there and putting the bolts back in, well, go for it. It is not such an accomplishment, but certainly it is not such an easy thing to do, either.

BooYah

Social climber

Ely, Nv

Aug 2, 2012 - 12:47am PT

"loose"? Really?
NO.

justthemaid

climber

Jim Henson's Basement

Aug 2, 2012 - 10:04am PT

Great post Ed.

There have been so many great arguments for and against I've found my opinion waffling wildly over the life of this thread. I finally sort of came to the same conclusion that it it's simply "beyond my judgement".

we have no choice but to accept their decision whether we think it was good or bad. They were capable of it.

Katie_I

Mountain climber

Wyoming

Aug 2, 2012 - 10:33am PT

Just to clarify, in response to Matias' comments about how Alpinist Magazine approached the topic. We didn't leave out the ideas he is talking about. In one of the interviews prior to Matias' interview in Alpinist 39, Luciano Fiorenza discusses the notion that the fair-means ascent was a "variant," not a new route, writing: "Hayden Kennedy and Jason Kruk simply opened a variation, which does not authorize them to pull the bolts."

Since we didn't want any of the interviews to repeat the same ideas (partly because we wanted to fit in interviews with as many local climbers as we could and partly because we were avoiding redundancy) we printed excerpts from each that discussed different angles of the controversy. The only reason we didn't include Matias' comments about a "variant" was that Luciano already commented on the same notion a few paragraphs earlier.

Anyway, the goal was to present a large number of varying opinions (both pro- and anti-chopping) and let readers decide for themselves. There are also two essays by Rolo and Luca (who are familiar to this forum, of course) which take opposing sides.

Page 67 has a topo map showing the various ascents on the Southeast Ridge (courtesy of Rolo), so perhaps readers can look at it and make up their own minds.

Thanks,

Katie Ives (Alpinist Magazine)

giomoz

Mountain climber

italy

Oct 19, 2012 - 09:35pm PT

2 FACTS OF CERRO TORRE

for rolo:

all true...but without maestri bolts: nada 'very fast ascent' for K&K ;)

we do not need Silvo Karo for say that maestri has been an animal in 1970.

for Mariana Fava, daughter of Cesarino Fava:

Compressor and bolts like Gioconda? ;))))

the real lack of respect for the mountain is to have allowed maestri to prick the Cerro.

with respect giomoz from Italy

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Oct 20, 2012 - 12:01am PT

Is there any truth to the rumour that outraged climbers plan to go up Cerro Torre in the next few months, and replace the bolts that were removed? The holes are still there, all you need to do is tap something in.

The rumour, that is, that I just started...

Or was it a tourist gondola that they were going to build? Some half-baked nonsense, anyway.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Oct 20, 2012 - 12:04am PT

Hey, the season is just about to start down there.

It isn't going to end until Cerro Torre is sediment in the ocean.

giomoz

Mountain climber

italy

Oct 20, 2012 - 12:33am PT

The sixth planet was ten times larger than the last one. It was inhabited by an old gentleman who wrote voluminous books.

"Oh, look! Here is an explorer!" he exclaimed to himself when he saw the little prince coming.

The little prince sat down on the table and panted a little. He had already traveled so much and so far!

"Where do you come from?" the old gentleman said to him.

"What is that big book?" said the little prince. "What are you doing?"

"I am a geographer," the old gentleman said to him.

"What is a geographer?" asked the little prince.

"A geographer is a scholar who knows the location of all the seas, rivers, towns, mountains, and deserts."

"That is very interesting," said the little prince. "Here at last is a man who has a real profession!" And he cast a look around him at the planet of the geographer. It was the most magnificent and stately planet that he had ever seen.

"Your planet is very beautiful," he said. "Has it any oceans?"

"I couldn't tell you," said the geographer.

"Ah!" The little prince was disappointed. "Has it any mountains?"

"I couldn't tell you," said the geographer.

"And towns, and rivers, and deserts?"

"I couldn't tell you that, either."

"But you are a geographer!"

"Exactly," the geographer said. "But I am not an explorer. I haven't a single explorer on my planet. It is not the geographer who goes out to count the towns, the rivers, the mountains, the seas, the oceans, and the deserts.
The geographer is much too important to go loafing about. He does not leave his desk. But he receives the explorers in his study. He asks them questions, and he notes down what they recall of their travels. And if the recollections of any one among them seem interesting to him, the geographer orders an inquiry into that explorer's moral character."

"Why is that?"

"Because an explorer who told lies would bring disaster on the books of the geographer. So would an explorer who drank too much."

"Why is that?" asked the little prince.

"Because intoxicated men see double. Then the geographer would note down two mountains in a place where there was only one."

"I know some one," said the little prince, "who would make a bad explorer."

"That is possible. Then, when the moral character of the explorer is shown to be good, an inquiry is ordered into his discovery."

"One goes to see it?"

"No. That would be too complicated. But one requires the explorer to furnish proofs. For example, if the discovery in question is that of a large mountain, one requires that large stones be brought back from it."

The geographer was suddenly stirred to excitement.

"But you-- you come from far away! You are an explorer! You shall describe your planet to me!"

And, having opened his big register, the geographer sharpened his pencil. The recitals of explorers are put down first in pencil. One waits until the explorer has furnished proofs, before putting them down in ink.

"Well?" said the geographer expectantly.

"Oh, where I live," said the little prince, "it is not very interesting. It is all so small. I have three volcanoes. Two volcanoes are active and the other is extinct. But one never knows."

"One never knows," said the geographer.

"I have also a flower."

"We do not record flowers," said the geographer.

"Why is that? The flower is the most beautiful thing on my planet!"

"We do not record them," said the geographer, "because they are ephemeral."

"What does that mean-- 'ephemeral'?"

"Geographies," said the geographer, "are the books which, of all books, are most concerned with matters of consequence. They never become old-fashioned. It is very rarely that a mountain changes its position. It is very rarely that an ocean empties itself of its waters. We write of eternal things."

"But extinct volcanoes may come to life again," the little prince interrupted. "What does that mean-- 'ephemeral'?"

"Whether volcanoes are extinct or alive, it comes to the same thing for us," said the geographer. "The thing that matters to us is the mountain. It does not change."

"But what does that mean-- 'ephemeral'?" repeated the little prince, who never in his life had let go of a question, once he had asked it.

"It means, 'which is in danger of speedy disappearance.'"

"Is my flower in danger of speedy disappearance?"

"Certainly it is."

"My flower is ephemeral," the little prince said to himself, "and she has only four thorns to defend herself against the world. And I have left her on my planet, all alone!"

That was his first moment of regret. But he took courage once more.

"What place would you advise me to visit now?" he asked.

"The planet Earth," replied the geographer. "It has a good reputation."

And the little prince went away, thinking of his flower.

Big Mike

Trad climber

Nov 5, 2012 - 08:46pm PT

Bump

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Dec 30, 2012 - 04:40pm PT

Papa Noel brought a few days of calm but humid weather to the Chalten massif over Christmas, with poor conditions for rock climbing, but good conditions for crampon climbing. Jon and I hiked into the Torre Valley on the 23rd, and on the 24th we passed through the Standhardt Col into the Circo de las Altares with heavy packs. On Christmas day, we, along with an incredible 20-or-so other people, climbed Cerro Torre via the Ragni Route. It was of course a bit disheartening to arrive at the top of El Elmo and see about six rope-teams in the mixed pitches, but in the end everyone made it to the top on Christmas day, and everyone seemed to get along well and be at peace with the crowding.

From Colin Haley: http://colinhaley.blogspot.com.ar/2012/12/papa-noel-brought-few-days-of-calm-but.html

Apparently the bolts that were removed haven't really hindered those who want to from climbing Cerro Torre, via the original (Ragni di Lecco) route.

Is 20 to the top on a single day a record? Did so many ever get up the southwest ridge in a single day?

Cloudraker

Sport climber

San Diego, CA

Dec 30, 2012 - 05:03pm PT

Conga line on Cerro Torre headwall xmas day, 2012 from Colin's post

Jonnnyyyzzz

Trad climber

San Diego,CA

Dec 31, 2012 - 04:19am PT

Maybe a link to this Enormocast (Hayden Kennedy) interview has been posted here already I don't know? When I saw this thread pop up again I thought I would put in a link to it. Enjoy.
Part One: http://enormocast.com/episode-6-hayden-kennedy-alpine-taliban-or-patagonian-custodian-part-1/

Part Two: http://enormocast.com/episode-7-hayden-kennedy-alpine-taliban-or-patagonian-custodian-part-2/

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Dec 31, 2012 - 12:40pm PT

OK, that blows my mind.

I guess this is what the future holds.

I hope they had some good translators in that crowd.

(and it is heartening to know that the route is still readily doable)

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 17, 2013 - 06:19am PT

Cesare Maestri, the spider of the Dolomites, and the enigma on the Cerro Torre route. Article by Mark Synnott in Climbing Mai 1999.

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Feb 17, 2013 - 01:05pm PT

in Alpinist 39, Luciano Fiorenza discusses the notion that the fair-means ascent was a "variant," not a new route, writing: "Hayden Kennedy and Jason Kruk simply opened a variation, which does not authorize them to pull the bolts."

The point of Ed's excellent post, as well as some of the thoughts of others, is that climbing is a direct-action game, not a philosophical or ethical concept, meaning any and all "rights" are exclusive to those on the mountainside. We might not agree with what comes done on El Cap or Cerro Torre or fill in the blank, but so long as we're down here, our thoughts count for nothing up high. That's simply the way it is, the beginning and end of the story. Everything else really is - just talk.

JL

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 17, 2013 - 01:19pm PT

That's just a good philosophical point Largo... nothing more... Some people chop, some chip... it's never above ethical reflection...

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Feb 17, 2013 - 04:58pm PT

it's never above ethical reflection...

Point taken, but it's deluded to think our reflections will have some influence on the person up high. He/she is outside the arena. The only way to be a true participant in this game is to strap on a harness and pull down. Otherwise we really are just talking . . .

JL

gonzo chemist

climber

Fort Collins, CO

Feb 17, 2013 - 10:44pm PT

Just listened to the Enormocast episodes with Hayden Kennedy.

WELL WORTH the listen! I'm glad he got the chance to explain his and J.K.'s side of the story.

H.K. sounds like a solid dude. Thoughtful, and obviously a damn good climber. Sorry he had to receive so much negative blow-back from chopping the abomination.

Now, who's going to get up there and repeat their route??

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Feb 17, 2013 - 10:51pm PT

Who is going to repeat the route....exactly the point. Hayden and Jayson didn't put up an "elites only" route and then chop the bolt route leaving an ascent from the Torre Valley side accessible to only world class climbers. Their route is 5:11+ A2... hard enough but not out of the range of most current day Patagonia climbers. Hey, Cerro Torre deserves a climb that stretches people and follows a natural line.

philo

Trad climber

Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?

Feb 18, 2013 - 10:19am PT

Absolutely well said Jim.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Feb 18, 2013 - 12:41pm PT

Phil.....seems like a lot of climbers are more concerned about end results than process.
People who love the act (process) of climbing are in the game forever.
Those who are trophy hunting quit once the walls on their dens are full.

Trophy hunters will do anything to assure success....hunters regularly shoot mountain lions from point blank range once they have been treed by dogs.
Trophy climbers are no different.

jsavage

climber

Bishop, CA

Mar 22, 2013 - 12:35pm PT

http://pioletsdor.com/images/PO2013/presse/cp5_gb.pdf

adikted

Boulder climber

Tahooooeeeee

Mar 22, 2013 - 02:34pm PT

The South East Face was repeated this January by Luca and Tadej...super strong climbers from Slovenia.....less than a week after they put up a new route on Fitzroy.....strong show!!

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 17, 2014 - 03:45pm PT

Has anybody else gotten such an e-mail:

I am contacting you because you made a post on a thread about the Cerro Torre bolting controversy.

When it comes to bolt wars, the rock and the climbing community that cares about it always lose. Stunning peaks and cherished crags are left a scarred mess.

The best cure for this problem is prevention. To help avoid bolt wars from starting, we aim to better understand why people on each side feel the way they do. We are conducting a survey to help answer this question. By completing the 10-minute questionnaire below you can help us take the first step. Participants who complete this questionnaire will be entered to win 1 of 2 $50.00 gift cards to www.Amazon.com.

I ask because I want to know if it's safe to click on the link and answer the survey...

My view: The survey should have been out before. The spinning has continued and it's all starting to degenerate into Kruk/Kennedy applause...

nopantsben

climber

Feb 17, 2014 - 03:49pm PT

it's safe..
it's actually pretty interesting.

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 17, 2014 - 03:51pm PT

Thanks!

mike m

Trad climber

black hills

Feb 17, 2014 - 03:53pm PT

Also got it. But have not looked at it.

Ghost

climber

A long way from where I started

Feb 17, 2014 - 04:00pm PT

Has anybody else gotten such an e-mail:

The email comes, ultimately, from Jeremy Frimer. He's climbed a lot at Squamish, and occasionally posts here on ST. He recently became Dr. Jeremy Frimer PhD, and was immediately punished by being given a job in the Psychology Dept. at the University of Manitoba in Winnipeg. In terms of climbing, this is worse than being sent to Florida or Nebraska. Much worse.

He's now overseeing a grad student who is conducting this research.

I haven't had time to do more than look at the first couple of questions and throw up my hands and say "AArrgghhhh! another stupid survey." But that's just me.

stevep

Boulder climber

Salt Lake, UT

Feb 17, 2014 - 04:08pm PT

Yeah, I got the survey too.
I thought it was fairly interesting, as it asked us to associate some emotional/moral terms to the argument that I normally don't associate with climbing. I'll be interested to see the results.

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Feb 17, 2014 - 04:27pm PT

Interesting, but disappointing that they didn't have the courage to pose the same questions regarding the actions of Kruk/Kennedy - the bolt choppers. They could have gotten much more out of the survey/research. Bad science...

Ghost

climber

A long way from where I started

Feb 17, 2014 - 04:46pm PT

Psychologists. Grin.

I like to place bolts because:
a) I see it as a service to the climbing community
b) Real climbing is too difficult for me
c) It gives me a boner

I like to chop bolts because:
a) I see it as a service to the climbing community
b) Putting up my own routes is too difficult for me
c) It gives me a boner

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Feb 17, 2014 - 08:07pm PT

tried to do it but it took too long on dial up.

I sent a rude email to Frimer and he answered with a polite one. He'd never survive the taco.

Chief

climber

The NW edge of The Hudson Bay

Feb 17, 2014 - 10:46pm PT

Re the e mail re survey.
No comment.

Big Mike

Trad climber

Feb 17, 2014 - 11:06pm PT

I sent a rude email to Frimer and he answered with a polite one. He'd never survive the taco.

He's suffered far worse slings and arrows than the taco can dish out...
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=846537&msg=1223436#msg1223436

nature

climber

Boulder, CO

Feb 18, 2014 - 12:06am PT

I got it too.

i complete the survey and the next thing you know I got a bunch of porn in my inbox.

so now I have two things to thank him for.

mike m

Trad climber

black hills

Apr 24, 2014 - 05:24pm PT

Was there much summiting done this year. Haven't heard much.

Jay Hack

Trad climber

Detroit, Michigan

Apr 25, 2014 - 11:15am PT

Not much action this year. I was down there for part of December and January and the weather was back to its old atrocious self with windows in the 6-12hr range, not the more lenient 24-48hr range....ahh...Patagonia...you are awesome. I thought I heard that there were a couple of successful climbs later in the season.

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

May 11, 2014 - 12:39pm PT

Cerro Torre Crazy - Silvo Karo in Mountain 129, 1989

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

May 11, 2014 - 01:37pm PT

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

May 11, 2014 - 03:55pm PT

That's it Reilly! Some folks here will think it's the Third Pillar of Dana.

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

May 11, 2014 - 03:59pm PT

The photo is a dream... a painting by a great master...

JFrimer

Trad climber

Aug 22, 2015 - 10:05am PT

I'm both a climber and a professor of social psychology.

Along with my colleagues, I recently published a scientific paper about this thread.

We found that climbers defend Cerro Torre in much the same way that social conservatives defend the American flag and "traditional" marriage. That is, they treat it as a sacred object that ought to remain pure and unaltered. These are symptoms of moral tribalism.

Here's a link to the full paper.

And some of the main findings:

yanqui

climber

Balcarce, Argentina

Aug 22, 2015 - 04:27pm PT

I find it interesting that "fair" and "respect" are the two biggest words in the cloud. Maybe I don't understand your numbers, but why do associate this language with social conservatives defending same sex marriage? If anything, I would say I heard this sort of language more often from social liberals defending marriage equality

Edit: (because I didn't want to bump the thread). So I was able to take some time and look over the article and I think I understand a little better now what you're getting on about. This wasn't clear to me from your post.

Roger Breedlove

climber

Cleveland Heights, Ohio

Aug 22, 2015 - 04:44pm PT

A major difference between Cerro Torre and other issues that elicit similar responses is that there is only one Cerro Torre. It is sort of like having only one American Flag that everyone has to share or, more provocatively, only one marriage that everyone has to share.

That said, Frimer's paper is just testing hypotheses and using our collective reaction to the controversy of Maestri's bolts. The bolting controversy itself is just a vehicle to test the hypotheses.

Surprisingly, at least to me, is that 30% of the respondents to the survey have climbed Cerro Torre.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Aug 22, 2015 - 04:50pm PT

You're right Roger, and as a singular, iconic mountain we should respect IT. Cerro Torre should not be adorned with a via ferrata nor should Half Dome have cables draped down its flank.

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Aug 22, 2015 - 05:43pm PT

Yeah, and I'm a Nazi for opposing the 'people's tram' to the top of Half Dome? But I do agree
that in the interest of fairness and diversity Yosemite should lose the pizza joint and open
good BBQ and sushi joints.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Aug 22, 2015 - 06:03pm PT

I'm a pantheist......and I don't like seeing humans, who have been here a short time and likely don't have much time left, desecrating Nature's wonders.

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Aug 22, 2015 - 11:57pm PT

JFrimer.

As one of the participants in the survey: Well done, an interesting read and no surprise. Though I'm critical about some of the questions I didn't find in the survey. As you ask, you get the answers.

TFPU!

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Aug 23, 2015 - 12:43am PT

I'm a pantheist......and I don't like seeing humans, who have been here a short time and likely don't have much time left, desecrating Nature's wonders.

Well said...

Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber

Out Of Bed

Oct 20, 2015 - 02:02am PT

All said and done are we?

It is a good read some thinking and then a lot more rationalizing

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Oct 20, 2015 - 06:43am PT

For me it's been all said and done since I climbed the route to the Col of Conquest in 1976 and saw the evidence or lack thereof.

WyoRockMan

climber

Grizzlyville, WY

Nov 2, 2017 - 03:20pm PT

Oh the job will get finished all right. 2 to 1 says those bolts are going back in.

Wanna bet?

The world's strangest and probably slowest bolt war has commenced.

DMT

Bump for probably should have taken that bet.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Nov 2, 2017 - 03:59pm PT

The Compressor Route has some real climbing on it and with the elimination of the bolts on the headwall the world’s most beautiful mountain now has a route more befitting it. Keep in mind that Hayden and Jason did not use the bolts and then chop them. They climbed the headwall sans bolts at 5.11+ A2, a grade within the range of many climbers.

Maestri trumpeted that he climbed Cerro Torre in 1959 with Toni Egger by a route that would have been, far and away, the most magnificent climb in history given the weather conditions and the equipment avaiable at that time. The only problem is that his claim was perhaps the most brazen lie in climbing history.

To claim such a climb and then come back years latter with an army of climbers and a compressor to power the many bolts they placed boggles the mind and is a cynical act deserving the defamation it received.

I believe that I am in a position to comment. In 1976 I, along with John Bragg and Jay Wilson, climbed Maestri’s supposed 1959 route to the Col of Conquest on the way to our first ascent of Torre Egger. What we found and DIDN’T find exposed Maestri’s lies.

Don Paul

Mountain climber

Denver CO

Nov 2, 2017 - 06:02pm PT

Yes, it must be within the ability of others. I hope the route is repeated. The alternative may be that the locals rebolt it.

Kalimon

Social climber

Ridgway, CO

Nov 2, 2017 - 07:02pm PT

RIP Hayden.

mikeyschaefer

climber

Sport-o-land

Nov 2, 2017 - 11:40pm PT

The Southeast ridge has been repeated numerous times (at least 6 I believe) since the removal of the bolts. Here are couple photos during 2nd free ascent and 5th repeat (or so)

The headwall really reminded me of climbing on Middle Cathedral.

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