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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 28, 2010 - 02:35pm PT
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Weak, Brawny!
I thought all real Climbers ascribed to (and believed in) the adage, Attitude is Everything. So what kind of attitude is that?!
With that kind of attitude, would we ever had fashioned a vehicle to put humanity on the moon? or to take wing in the skies? Or to create a small pox vaccine? C'mon, adapt!
"Manufactured" belief disciplines would be merely models (mental tools) to help us in the course of living. Right now we really don't have them. Yet. In large part because so many are only thinking (and believing!) in terms of religions and theologies.
re: "has the tendency to cheat others" Exactly. Which is all the more reason we need life guidance in this area. And a new kind of believer to commit to "living up to" the challenge of not cheating others. In fact, all four of your points (a product of natural selection and life's seamy side you could say) is exactly why we need a new kind of belief system that promotes life strategies to deal with these. And a new kind of believer to commit "living up to" them.
EDIT Cragman, cute.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 28, 2010 - 02:42pm PT
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Manufactured" belief disciplines would be merely models (mental tools) to help us in the course of living.
Is this not the very definition of religion?
And aren't you then simply proposing to create your own religion as opposed to those that already exist?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 28, 2010 - 02:45pm PT
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This is exactly part of the problem, Jan. As part of the process, we need some new terminology, some new language. So we can get traction in this area and not get bogged down by all the weight of antiquated beliefs, antiquated framing, antiquated thinking. "Religions" to too many (myself included) suggests supernaturalist belief, supernaturalist doctrines in regard to "how the world works" and so they don't want to use that word and contribute to the miscommunication.
It's a simple matter to distinguish between theological "belief disciplines" (e.g., religions that rely on supernaturalist belief) and let's call them science-based belief disciplines. It is, really!, it just takes some getting used to. And as I said above, for sake of this thread at least, we might call them superduction systems as opposed to religion systems. So a science-based belief discipline and a superduction would be synonomous.
Well, I better get back to my op amps and switching power supply project...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 28, 2010 - 04:24pm PT
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Yeah, no doubt any modern spiritual faith discipline model (science-based of course) would feature components to cover "what matters" and "what works" in addition to "what is."
A part of these would include the golden rule, looking after the unfortunate, and the development and use of cooperative win-win strategies in the "practice" of living. Please note: Noble pursuits like these require not one nanogram of supernaturalist belief left over from the bronze age and institutionalized by supernaturalists. That's cool!
EDIT
What is... in terms of real world facts.
What matters... to the living organism known as human.
What works... in regard to life strategies that lead to better living.
There are the grounds for a basic blueprint right there.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jan 28, 2010 - 04:40pm PT
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I'm with HFCS!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 28, 2010 - 05:04pm PT
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Ha, thanks Eeyonkee! That prompted me to read your last four posts. Among them:
"Got Richard Dawkins newest book, The Greatest Show on Earth, for Christmas. It's not his best book (I've read them all), but it's the first where he takes on all of the criticisms of evolution and presents the overwhelming evidence for it. And it IS overwhelming. So overwhelming that any refutation can only be of the I'm going to take the leap of faith and believe in the bible instead type. This type of believer is on par with with Muslim fundamentalists, in my opinion."
Me thinks when you're out the High Sierra way, we should get a few climbs in together. A little esprit de corps!
So who else do you know on this Taco that's open to bringing a little innovation and modernity to spiritual belief discipline practice and giving archaic supernaturalist doctrines the boot? All in the interest of higher achievement in the "practice" of living of course. (As I'm a virgin to this thread and don't know the characters... I mean besides Brawny and Cragman.)
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jstan
climber
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Jan 28, 2010 - 05:08pm PT
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The original split between Sunnis and Shia occurred soon after the death of the Prophet Muhammad, in the year 632.
"There was a dispute in the community of Muslims in present-day Saudi Arabia over the question of succession," says Augustus Norton, author of Hezbollah: A Short History. "That is to say, who is the rightful successor to the Prophet?"
Most of the Prophet Muhammad's followers wanted the community of Muslims to determine who would succeed him. A smaller group thought that someone from his family should take up his mantle. They favored Ali, who was married to Muhammad's daughter, Fatimah.
"Shia believed that leadership should stay within the family of the Prophet," notes Gregory Gause,professor of Middle East politics at the University of Vermont. "And thus they were the partisans of Ali, his cousin and son-in-law. Sunnis believed that leadership should fall to the person who was deemed by the elite of the community to be best able to lead the community.
And it was fundamentally that political division that began the Sunni-Shia split."
The Sunnis prevailed and chose a successor to be the first caliph.
Eventually, Ali was chosen as the fourth caliph, but not before violent conflict broke out. Two of the earliest caliphs were murdered. War erupted when Ali became caliph, and he too was killed in fighting in the year 661 near the town of Kufa, now in present-day Iraq.
The violence and war split the small community of Muslims into two branches that would never reunite.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7332087
End of Excerpt
It is now about 1500 years later.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 28, 2010 - 06:13pm PT
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Hey HFCS I'm with ya all the way... despite being a real outsider pariah in the eyes of the exalted ones here.
Secular humanism has actually pretty much covered all the bases, though, whether or not Cragman et al. want to put it down as beneath their sainted consideration.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 28, 2010 - 07:10pm PT
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Discussions like this turn everyone into exaggerated two-dimensional caricatures of themselves. This is why a sense of humor is important, but even that can get twisted when the differences of opinion reach a certain level.
But really, if this is possible:
Then I'm sure we'd all get along just fine too in 3-D.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 28, 2010 - 08:11pm PT
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Any ideology can be abused. That seems to be the ultimate dilemma.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 28, 2010 - 08:40pm PT
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cintune "We don't see scientists running into churches and insisting that their areas of expertise be worked into the sermon. That is the original point of this thread. Creationism is a political agenda to introduce thinly-veiled religious dogma into science classrooms in the public schools. Norton's excellently provocative title stirred up the religiously-inclined posters here, who immediately started changing the subject to the ethical merits of their faith, and of course the non-believers couldn't let that go either."
Boulder Dash! It's about a Creator or no Creator, (but God is ethical and each one of us will have to give an account to Him one day, but through Jesus He'll see Jesus's righteousness and not my sin's!) Evolution says were just modified lime-green-slime! Creationist say were made in the image of God!
One question how is it that the planets are so round? In a rock tumbler rocks get smooth but keep their odd shapes? And how about their orbits? God tells us in the Bible that He did that!
Psalm 19:1
The Law of the Lord Is Perfect
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.
Psalm 50:6 The heavens declare his righteousness, for God himself is judge! Selah
Jeremiah 31:37 Thus says the Lord: “If the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth below can be explored, then I will cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done, declares the Lord.”
Hosea 2:21 “And in that day I will answer, declares the Lord, I will answer the heavens, and they shall answer the earth,
Zechariah 12:1 The Lord Will Give Salvation
The burden of the word of the Lord concerning Israel: Thus declares the Lord, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him
......
Proverbs 29:9, He who is often reproved, yet stiffens his neck,
will suddenly be broken beyond healing.
Ascribe to the Lord Glory
A Psalm of David.
29 Ascribe to the Lord, O heavenly beings,
ascribe to the Lord glory and strength.
2 Ascribe to the Lord the glory due his name;
worship the Lord in the splendor of holiness.
3 The voice of the Lord is over the waters;
the God of glory thunders,
the Lord, over many waters.
4 The voice of the Lord is powerful;
the voice of the Lord is full of majesty.
5 The voice of the Lord breaks the cedars;
the Lord breaks the cedars of Lebanon.
6 He makes Lebanon to skip like a calf,
and Sirion like a young wild ox.
7 The voice of the Lord flashes forth flames of fire.
8 The voice of the Lord shakes the wilderness;
the Lord shakes the wilderness of Kadesh.
9 The voice of the Lord makes the deer give birth
and strips the forests bare,
and in his temple all cry, “Glory!”
10 The Lord sits enthroned over the flood;
the Lord sits enthroned as king forever.
11 May the Lord give strength to his people!
May the Lord bless his people with peace!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2010 - 08:48pm PT
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Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.
9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.
8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.
7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!
6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.
5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.
4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."
3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.
2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.
1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2010 - 08:53pm PT
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Bible Quote for January 25
Kill Followers of Other Religions
"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst." (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2010 - 08:55pm PT
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And a real nice bible quote for Saturday!
Bible Quote for January 30
More Baby Killing
"The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 28, 2010 - 09:21pm PT
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It's funny cause it's true.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 28, 2010 - 09:23pm PT
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Gobee: Evolution says were just modified lime-green-slim! Creationist say were made in the image of God!
Well, there's lots and lots of steps between the earliest lifeforms and us hominids, actually. If you personally prefer to stick with one old myth instead of learning about life's progression, that's totally your choice. The point is that public school science curricula are supposed to teach the science, not the myth.
One question how is it that the planets are so round? In a rock tumbler rocks get smooth but keep their odd shapes? And how about their orbits? God tells us in the Bible that He did that!
Well... I'm tempted to just break out Cap'n Picard here, but I'll try to control the urge.
Aw, I canna resist.
Dude. Gravity did that.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 28, 2010 - 09:30pm PT
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More like a pinball wizard!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 28, 2010 - 09:33pm PT
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That list is too funny. Fundamentalism is neither fun nor mental
Teaching Creationism in schools, or believing in it in a literal way, does more harm to Religion than it does to science and it harms science a lot.
God and Foolishness about God are two separate things
Peace
Karl
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2010 - 09:53pm PT
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Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?
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