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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Feb 26, 2019 - 11:41am PT
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It's debatable whether a foray into quantum mysticism helps your argument.
You lost me with that one, John. Citing a physicist in what way posits what she said as "mysticism?" What does that word even mean to you? What about what she said are you in disagreement with? What about Lanza's platform you mentioned do you feel is unsound, and what science do you believe the author (one of he most respected scientist in the world) is in the blind about?
And argument? I'm simply offering observations.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 26, 2019 - 01:04pm PT
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Curious, do you ever imagine the possibility that you might lack certain "vantage points" that science, in particular actual hands-on science, provides? For example the vantage point from cellular biology; the vantage point from biochemistry and molecular biology (they are different disciplines); the vantage point from evolutionary psychology, evolutionary history, evolutionary ecology (e.g., croc vs wildebeest, wasp vs beetle, cougar vs human); the vantage points provided by neuroscience incl clinical neurology; the vantage points provided by straight up chemistry and systems engineering (analysis and design).
I pose this because we are all familiar with the relation: Insofar as you get different vantage points and assimilate them, your (meta)perspective tends to change.
We know this as aging persons from traversing the decades. We know this from climbing (assorted venues in misc styles). We know this from sociopolitics. We know this from interdisciplinary, multi-disciplinary study or scholarship as well.
The dozen or more vantage points provided by their respective scientific disciplines provide enormous insight into this mind-brain subject matter. That said, it is rather a "tell" - to me at least - that you hardly reference them.
Personally, I can't help but think if your vantage points in all or most of these venues of science were stronger, more solid (not unlike the vantage points you've earned through encountering / experiencing dozens if not hundreds of routes or sections of routes in Yos; far more solid than those of others), your perspective would change - in this case in regard to mind-brain relations.
Further, it seems to me, you wouldn't be so prone to mock science as you do, caricature science as scientism as you do, dismiss the Hard Problem and its inherent difficulties in terms of scientific naturalism as you do.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 26, 2019 - 01:52pm PT
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Largo wrote: This includes Robert Lanza, one of the most respected scientists in the world—a U.S. News & World Report cover story called him a "genius" and "renegade thinker," even likening him to Einstein.
Yeah, Lanza is all those things - IN HIS FIELD - from which he is far, far afield with regards to these other ideas.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Feb 26, 2019 - 03:57pm PT
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mysticism
My tenuous connection with this is that my ex-wife's father was a Hungarian aristocrat who carried on a lengthy correspondence with Eugene Wigner after he immigrated to the USA in the early 1950s. Jenő would speak to me at length about Tielhard de Chardin and the mysterious Omega Point, and I would discuss the elements of mathematical analysis (which he found intriguing). He passed on in 1980.
Wiki: "In 1961 Eugene Wigner wrote a paper, titled Remarks on the mind–body question, suggesting that a conscious observer played a fundamental role in quantum mechanics,[13][14]:93 a part of the Von Neumann–Wigner interpretation. While his paper would serve as inspiration for later mystical works by others,[13] Wigner's ideas were primarily philosophical and are not considered "in the same ballpark" as the mysticism that would follow.[15]"
I replied about Lanza some time ago. Your turn to unpack Lynds.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 26, 2019 - 04:32pm PT
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Anyone want to take a stab at it...
...at why Cellular Biology and Systems Science, to pick on just TWO scientific disciplines out of six or seven or twelve that serve as "vantage points" in science, serve as strong compelling evidence in support of the model / conclusion that we are indeed automata and that our lives are 100% fated.
I mention this because it's just occurred to me that Largo - and not unlike MikeL by the way - would likely be dismissive of these scientific disciplines (having not studied them) as "vantage points" to further insights - not only in regards to our automatic (automata) nature and our agency as evolved organisms - but also in regards to our mind-brain and consciousness. After all, what would Cell Biology - blood cells to liver cells to skin cells - have to do with awareness, etc.?
On the other thread, once again "determinism" or "deterministic" was mentioned. Maybe in the 22nd century, we can hope that at least the "science types" - one and all - will get around to recognizing that claims or statements or even entire conversations that include this term are likely rendered meaningless if its definition and context are not made clear.
There are TWO prominent definitions of "determinism" - wildly different in meaning. I challenge you - Get with the program!
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 26, 2019 - 08:53pm PT
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You haven't studied all science of life thus you are easily dismissed so called science masqueraded as authoritative.
You can mislead the clueless but you'll always fail to the real knowledge that's far above the puny incomplete academics.
Keep stirring the beaker ....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 27, 2019 - 03:39pm PT
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lol
If you think Michael Cohen's testimony was explosive, Alex Jones just told Joe Rogan that there's an alien base in San Francisco to make intergalactic deals, that we took over the British government in 1930, that government is pumping "astronaut-level" humans with Dingus, I mean DMT...
Maybe like religions of old we can somehow turn these "far-out" truth-claims into allegory and/or metaphor in the pursuit of comfort, hope...
...appealing narrative to live by... to "reconcile being" with the cold hard truths.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
https://youtu.be/-5yh2HcIlkU
A week or so ago, I posted that Brian Cox, science physicist and pop science communicator, had more views on JRE than any other guest in last 30 days or so. I saw it as hopeful. But, alas, I bet in the next few weeks if not days, lol, Alex Jones tops this count. But we'll see.
On the art of weaving truths, otherwise possibilities, with fantasy in the process of producing a narrative or set of narratives...
Further, Alex Jones said that billionaires plot to control the rest of us (possibility?, yes) through mind control and IQ lowering drugs (future possiblity? yes) leaving behind masses of morons (possibility, yes) with economies controlled by robots (possibility, yes) delivered by the off-world entities (wee bit fantastic).
One wonders if Sam Harris, as articulate as he is, could get a word in edgewise with Alex Jones? lol
...
There is no better rationale for grounding yourself in a modern science education than this - for ability to cut through all the bs, the loads of bs, that plague our world, say as evinced by Alex Jones here.
Candle in the Dark, by Carl Sagan.
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re: religions vis a vis meaning systems
re: science and meaning systems
re: adaptive fictions
[Click to View YouTube Video]
https://www.skeptic.com/science-salon/this-view-of-life-completing-darwinian-revolution/
Like Shermer but unlike Harris and Dawkins, I've always been a fan of David Sloan Wilson.
"To adopt an evolutionary worldview gives you a new common sense." -David Sloan Wilson
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Feb 28, 2019 - 07:26am PT
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"To adopt an evolutionary worldview gives you a new common sense." -David Sloan Wilson
Gosh, I’m not sure that I understand the term “common sense” as it is employed here, or how a belief in evolutionary theory provides “common sense.” Common sense to do or be what? If there is such a thing as common sense, I would suppose that it is regularly employed to achieve things in the world. If one believes in the so-called common sense of evolutionary theory, how does that help that person perform in the mundane world?
Obviously I’m confused with this statement. Perhaps you could elucidate it for me, please.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 28, 2019 - 10:54am PT
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Maybe like religions of old we can somehow turn these "far-out" truth-claims into allegory and/or metaphor in the pursuit of comfort, hope...
Again, now with the exceptional crack-pot Jones, who then becomes a figure head for any religious thought. A generalization so broad as to become ludicrous based on a useless, absurd exaggeration.
If you can't tell the difference between Shakespeare and Star Trek or Jones and what's in the bible it would seem to be hopeless.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Feb 28, 2019 - 11:09am PT
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"I’m not sure that I understand the term “common sense” as it is employed here"
Good point.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 28, 2019 - 11:15am PT
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Again, now with the exceptional crack-pot Jones, who then becomes a figure head for any religious thought.
A generalization so broad as to become ludicrous based on a useless, absurd exaggeration.
LOL .....
That's been Beaker Boys' (HFCS) modus opperendi all the time due to being so clueless and brainwashed.
The clueless always do this .....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 28, 2019 - 01:31pm PT
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"I’m not sure that I understand the term “common sense” as it is employed here"
Good point.
Perhaps listen to the piece for context, it might be more clear?
...
As I see it, the fix we're in... Whether it's science or politics, the changes, reveals and such are so many nowadays - thanks to the internet-driven information age - that normal everyday people can't keep up, they only have so much attention to give to things. This is a new, enhanced breeding ground for problems, including miscommunication and misunderstanding.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
“We’ll send (Obama) back home to Kenya or wherever it is.” -Mark Meadows
This is an especially ironic reveal (and find) just uploaded today on twitter from 2012 in the aftermath of Meadows' comments re racism, racists from M. Cohen's Congressional hearing just a couple days ago.
Note the laughing from this N. Carolina audience.
https://youtu.be/TftuifMV6LY
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Sam Harris & Jordan Peterson discuss these issues (re: Fruity) at some depth in this vid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEf6X-FueMo
Much as Peterson can irritate me at times, he has a flexibility of mind lost on the more factually dogmatic Harris, who I also admire.
Learning how to surf chaos is the biggest challenge of being human, in my opinion, and it requires much more that facts and data to do so.
Lastly, Fruity, I'm not mocking science. Never had. Scientism, yes - we can easily see why. Your argument that "if I only understodd the measurements" plays right alongside the idea that the scientist claiming something other then a Newtonian worldview is either "way outside his field," or has "misrepresented the data."
Another glaring problem is the illusion that a physicalist platform has been well thought out, or thought out at all. For example, physicalism says there is never something greater than the parts. There is no extra. That means the brain can't "create" something extra we call consciousness (not kowing any better, or "believeing there is more"), rather matter itself becomes, or IS, conscious. And ladies and gentlemen - that there is panpsychism.
Nobody's worked out any of this in any definitive way.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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HFCS: Perhaps listen to the piece for context, it might be more clear?
Tell us.
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Jim Clipper
climber
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With stem cells, “biological engineering”, if scientists built a functional brain/being, would it have a mind? Seems like thie operative word in this argument 150 years ago would have been soul.
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WBraun
climber
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Anything the gross materialists build will never have a soul.
The individual living being is the soul itself and beyond the capabilities of anyone to create because the individual soul is eternal to begin with.
The individual soul is part parcel of God and can not be created by anyone period except God himself.
The individual soul is the reason for the presence of consciousness, for without the individual spiritual soul (the self) there would be no life within the material bodies and no consciousness.
The gross materialists are always in very poor fund of knowledge and can only do word jugglery with things they are so clueless too ....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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"I had a very strong reaction after the war of a peculiar nature - it may be from just the bomb itself and it may be for some other psychological reasons, I’d just lost my wife or something, but I remember being in New York with my mother in a restaurant, immediately after [Hiroshima], and thinking about New York, and I knew how big the bomb in Hiroshima was, how big an area it covered and so on, and I realized from where we were - I don’t know, 59th Street — that to drop one on 34th Street, it would spread all the way out here and all these people would be killed and all the things would be killed and there wasn’t only one bomb available, but it was easy to continue to make them, and therefore that things were sort of doomed because already it appeared to me-very early, earlier than to others who were more optimistic - that international relations and the way people were behaving were no different than they had ever been before and that it was just going to go on the same way as any other thing and I was sure that it was going, therefore, to be used very soon. So I felt very uncomfortable and thought, really believed, that it was silly: I would see people building a bridge and I would say “they don’t understand.” I really believed that it was senseless to make anything because it would all be destroyed very soon anyway, but they didn’t understand that and I had this very strange view of any construction that I would see, I would always think how foolish they are to try to make something. So I was really in a kind of depressive condition."
Richard Feynman
The Pleasure of Finding Things Out
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Jim Clipper
climber
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Anything the gross materialists build will never have a soul.
baaaah Dolly
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