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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Feb 21, 2019 - 12:29pm PT
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Star Trek dealt with more than personal drama. Racism, Liberty, Futurism, Civil Rights, Sexism, the philosophies of love and war.
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Feb 21, 2019 - 01:28pm PT
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This is a paid ad that just came up on facebook. I'm not sure if they want me to buy something or what it's about. Maybe one of you knows about this.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 21, 2019 - 01:53pm PT
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the writers of the original Star Trek series went out of their way to offer up classical thought and moral dilemmas in the context of current events...
Frankly, it wouldn't be THAT surprising to me to learn that Paul confuses Star Trek with Star Wars, lol.
Some people do - those totally out of the loop.
...
eeyonkee, pretty sure, knows "Distant Origin" from Star Trek Voyager, S3. Tell me that's not a powerful, thought-provoking piece of literature that's a core science-based humanities interest. That exchange between Chakotay, Galen and the Voth Pope is priceless!
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 21, 2019 - 02:31pm PT
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Star Trek dealt with more than personal drama. Racism, Liberty, Futurism, Civil Rights, Sexism, the philosophies of love and war.
James Joyce (yeah what did he know?) would say the above are examples of improper art. That is political notions of race etc. are things that can be changed in human experience and that great or proper art deals with the grave and constant in human experience those things such as mortality and a reason to even be that are unavoidable and inevitable in all our lives: the grave and constant in human experience. All that political stuff is superfluous by comparison. No matter how free, how much liberty, civil rights you have you can't escape the need for meaning and mortality.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Feb 21, 2019 - 04:13pm PT
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At the time of proposing the table of elements, the idea that there were atoms was far out, though today we have ample reason to accept the atomic view, as it provides a powerful way of understanding.
Revisionist views of science history usually obscure the entirely legitimate criticisms of theories leveled at the time of their creation.
The victors get to write history, after all.
On the other hand, there are plenty of theories that were thought wacko when they were proposed, that did indeed turn out to be wacko.
Most of them get ignored by history.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 21, 2019 - 05:02pm PT
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They new about atoms millions of years ago.
They also knew how to split the atoms millions of years ago.
You modern egotistical so called scientists think you discovered this stuff now.
The intelligence and consciousness of people millions of years ago was 1000 times greater than now.
Modern science has devolved into gross dead materialism ......
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 21, 2019 - 07:10pm PT
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I happen to quite like the Sistine Chapel paintings, and Georgia O'Keefe...
and I'm a scientist too... so if I had something to contribute to preserving that art I would certainly want to...
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Feb 21, 2019 - 08:35pm PT
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How many millions of years ago, precisely?
Show us...
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 22, 2019 - 08:11am PT
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I happen to quite like the Sistine Chapel paintings, and Georgia O'Keefe...
and I'm a scientist too... so if I had something to contribute to preserving that art I would certainly want to...
That's excellent. Now ask yourself what it is you "like" about these works and I would posit that it's exactly what you can enjoy, admire, like about the Old Testament and the story of creation and all the nasty law that we no longer tolerate. In those old books we find insight into the human condition; they are an Integral part of the foundation of western literature and worthy of admiration.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Feb 22, 2019 - 09:37am PT
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Paul: Literature/art is more than a story line. It's not the moral dilemma, it's the presentation of the moral dilemma through the arrangement of words or the form (read construction) of those words. . . . Likewise in painting, the subject may be, can be, mundane, but its expression in form, line, value, texture and color has within it both the manifestation of personal emotion and the expression of beauty.
In my experiences making art and studying its various expressions, I’ll say that so much in art in all of its expressions seem to be about form—structure.
Scholars and practitioners argue that objects have aesthetic value if they provide valuable experiences. (They also say aesthetic experiences arise if they are *correctly* perceived; so it seems that education and community consensus is also important.)
Is aesthetic value the value of an aesthetic experience, or does value reside in the object? In describing the value of experience of a work of art we invariably find ourselves describing the properties of the work—its structure.
Maybe Plato was right. Maybe there are perfect forms for everything. When it comes to art, maybe there are certain perfect forms or structures that one must discover and realize in a work. When making an object, there is an intuitive sense of what works and what doesn’t, and the best forms stand the test of time and culture. Yet they don’t seem to be based upon anything that one can definitively establish. We just have a “feel” of what’s appropriate and what’s not. (Conversations about “good climbs” are like this, too.)
I’m probably not being very clear.
As the artistic process unfolds in my works, I’m almost always challenged, troubled, and mystified. Sure I get initial ideas, but the implementation of those ideas always have lives of their own.
I remember being taught as a literature major that comedy, romance, irony, tragedy etc. all tended to hold to particular formats / structures. When those were executed / implemented cogently, the stories would provide both an emotional experience and associated cognitive understanding at the same time.
What is it about art that prevents anyone from saying “how it *should* be done?”
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 22, 2019 - 11:08am PT
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" In those old books we find insight into the human condition; they are an Integral part of the foundation of western literature and worthy of admiration."
Fair enough, Paul, but then that's not really the issue.
:)
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Minerals, always a good reminder. Thanks.
30 years ago, inspired in large part by Sagan's "Cosmic Calendar" (Cosmos), I committed to memory many of your shown eras, epochs and periods. Over the years, it proved very helpful.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 22, 2019 - 11:25am PT
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That's excellent. Now ask yourself what it is you "like" about these works and I would posit that it's exactly what you can enjoy, admire, like about the Old Testament and the story of creation and all the nasty law that we no longer tolerate. In those old books we find insight into the human condition; they are an Integral part of the foundation of western literature and worthy of admiration.
I think I've done this throughout my life, not just that old book, but others too, and maybe some earlier and some later...
...and literature and art as we traditionally experience them enlarges our own set of experiences, though there are many other opportunities to do that then there once was, leading to the question of what the roles art and literature can play in our contemporary world.
Certainly art and literature provide a window on the cultures that produced them, aside from admiration, all cultures are conveyed to us, in some small part, by their art and literature, and in so doing provide us some experience of those cultures.
This window on experience, from the artists point of view, the primary reason I seek contemporary art and literature. The grand themes are not as interesting to me in my old age.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 22, 2019 - 11:26am PT
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Fair enough, Paul, but then that's not really the issue.
No, I'd say that is exactly the issue. Sacred texts have value. They are expressions and insights of what it is to be human and they continue to reconcile the greater percentage of humanity to its condition. Disparaging them for what they are not, attempts at scientific papers, will get you nowhere in your attempt to enlighten the masses to your own version of reality.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 22, 2019 - 12:40pm PT
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Disparaging them for what they are not, attempts at scientific papers...
I've noticed what you've been doing here. You've done it, what? about a dozen times now over the last year or so? But let's post plainly...
We are not "disparaging" them as elements of great literature or as mythology.
We are "disparaging" them as truth claims (claims to truth). That's one way to put it. Another: We are "disparaging" them as ontology (study of being or study of reality; 2 actual description of being or reality). We are "disparaging' them as epistemology (epistemologic accounts) assumed to describe/explain actuality/reality in a literal, for-real sense.
We are disparaging them because they conflict with the "scientific papers". Where is the intellectual honesty here, on your part? You know as well as most of us here that the ontological model for how the world works as put for by the Church, for eg, for centuries upon centuries, was taken as the facts (the truth). What's more you know as we do that the ontology put forth by the Church for centuries and the ontology put forth by modern science is what is at issue here and that they are at odds.
Be real. Be authentic. That's all.
Blurring the lines. Posting in loose terms, loose context. Perhaps it's not so much an example of intellectual dishonesty as intellectual laziness. I don't know.
re: the ontologies of Christianity and science
they are at odds.
First and foremost, that is why this thread is entitled Science vs Religion.
If it's still not clear enough already... it's been the theologians and pastors and priests and aunts and uncles and grandmothers and grandfathers who have taught - and mostly to great success - the common folk, the uneducated multitudes, the children, the bible stories (the bible ontology) as truth (the facts of life).
The mystery here is why you're not taking it up with them: both the leaders and the followers, the preachers and the congregationists. How are they transmitting and receiving the storied accounts? as facts (as actual truth) or as allegories? That's what matters most.
The poor young mother with the dying child in her arms... whom you've alluded to numerous times... Will she be soothed by an allegory? Will she be soothed by a lie? or a set of lies? There's the crux of the biscuit.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 22, 2019 - 02:27pm PT
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Beaker Boy
YOU have no clue what Truth actually is.
You can't even recognize your own self yet.
Keep stirring your beaker looking for it ......
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 22, 2019 - 02:40pm PT
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Beaker Boy...
You know I wonder if it's ever occurred to you that this resistance you present - relentlessly, tediously, crudely and baselessly - is pretty much the same resistance presented, as shown in our history, towards women and towards ethnic minorities. You ever consider that?
Watch Green Book tonight. Learn something.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 22, 2019 - 02:53pm PT
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You are insane.
Saw Green Book right when it came out, excellent movie.
When I lived in Chicago slums as a kid the school I went to was 90% black.
All my friends were black.
Don't gimme your lame useless mental speculations and projections for your deluded brainwashed bias,
Like I said you are clueless to whom you are and to the actual Truth ...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 22, 2019 - 03:06pm PT
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Saw Green Book...
Ah, then you must remember this scene...
This cop sorta reminded me of you... So sure of himself.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 22, 2019 - 03:29pm PT
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Knowing Werner even as little as I do he has come by his beliefs in an authentic way, based on his life's experiences. Whether or not I agree with him, I don't question his conviction and commitment to those beliefs.
I also know that those experiences provide him a rich tapestry from a life that spans from hell to paradise. We can certainly agree to listen to each others' stories and learn from their inherent wisdom.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 22, 2019 - 03:48pm PT
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yeah, and so have literally countless others... and yet they don't present themselves as such
all too often his posts are like flies in the soup, but apparently you can see past them more than i
how ironic in some ways though, that he finds Green Book an excellent film, I wonder what object lessons if any he gathered from it
We can certainly agree to listen to each other's stories and learn from their inherent wisdom.
Completely agree. Does he?
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