The Offroad Van Hunt

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NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 9, 2016 - 12:14pm PT
Wifey's car broke down and we are in the market. We somewhat reached an impasse in that my version of adventure-mobile includes acceptable damage from tree branch scrapes, bottoming out, river crossings, etc... and she doesn't want to scratch the paint or mess up the furniture inside if I am messy with skis/snowboards/crampons or other stuff with sharp edges. Assuming we work through those issues (i.e. I learn to become a little domesticated in order to get access to an offroad-capable comfortable sleep vehicle):

What is the choice of base vehicle these days?
 Ford Econoline: tried and true for 4x4 conversions and applications where clearance matters... my leading choice, but crappy mpg, and stopped being made in 2014. The mechanical parts should carry on through 2020 for the cutaway models though?
 Ford Transit: crappy small wheel wells, low clearance, suspension leafs hang down asking to be smashed by a rock. But, they are officially supported with Quigley 4x4 conversion with 2" lift. Still plagued by small tire problems and who knows what delicate stuff at risk of rubbing on the belly, and some issue with clearance of a steering rod or something if you try to go bigger on tires (even if you chop out the wheel well). And they are too new to know what long term issues will plague them. But they are way better mpg and power that similar econolines.
 Promaster: maybe a great choice if staying 2WD because it is the only front wheel drive van, good snow handling for 2wd.

Should anything else be on my radar as a strong contender?


Now, 4x4 conversions:
 Quigley: seems like best for very conservative folks who want to maintain full Ford support. But they seem to have performance issues where they bottom out (limited suspension travel), jarring the spine of vehicle occupants.
 Quadvan in Oregon seems unprofessional, or focused on fleet/larger deals. I left several emails and tried on the phone with no response, and their website has no useful details about what they do
 AgileOffroad in SoCal looks the best to me... They fix Quigley and Quadvan conversions to improve their performance, and they do their own conversions too. They told me Econoline is way more offroad-worthy than Transit, which is consistent with everything I've found from internet searching, but perhaps that is biased because it is their specialty.

Now the engine debate if going Econoline: 6.0 vs 7.3L diesel, or 5.4L V8 gas, or 6.8L V10 gas. Diesel seems to be the rage for better mpg and torque for towing power with less engine strain. But I'm not into doing extra work to maintain the engine, or deal with more expensive engine maintenance or taking extra stuff apart to get at the components for repair. And I don't think I need the extra torque: I'm not going to tow anything, just do a camper conversion (which might run a bit heavy because wifey wants full nice quality furniture (but thankfully no shower/toilet). It would have pop-top, galley with cook surface and fridge, etc.) Biggest strain for me would be the long haul up Owen's Grade on Hwy 395, maybe loaded with 4-5 people and camping and skiing and climbing gear, and maybe a couple of Kayaks.

Offroad performance I'm looking for access to Saline Valley when it's raining (but not trying to cross the monster wash-outs that happen); access to backcountry skiing trailheads when it's rainy/muddy/slushy on the approach dirt roads; Jackass Meadows out near Lake Florence in Western Sierra... places like that. No expectations of rock crawling, but want reasonably full access to offroad camping.

Other items: I'm pretty much an auto mechanical idiot, but I've figured out enough to be dangerous. I think I want a limited slip differential in the back for normal 2WD mode, with an option to turn on locking diff in front when the 4WD is engaged. Does this give me the best compromise for gas mileage but also serious performance for mud/snow/funky eastern sierra road in bad conditions?


I think my ideal looks like a 6" lifted 2011-2014 Ford Econoline E-350 passenger wagon extended with 33-35" tires, if I can learn to accept the gas mileage. Probably 5.4L V8 engine. I would be content with a foam pad on plywood over milk crates in the back, with a fridge to keep food from rotting, but wifey wants something more like a Westfalia/Sportsmobile. I'm ok with that but I'm worried that my habit of being hard on my shoes/clothes/vehicles/stuff would destroy delicate furniture.

So what do you all do? What is the current state of the art for folks who have a heart attack about Sportsmobile prices, want to be offroad capable, but have a platform that would be reasonable as a base to invest more money in a nicer furniture install?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 9, 2016 - 01:22pm PT
Those Sprinters seem like the answer but why do they have such small wheels
and lack of clearance?

Get an Earthroamer! Built on an F-550 chassis!
norm larson

climber
wilson, wyoming
Dec 9, 2016 - 01:23pm PT
We have a Chevy Express AWD cargo van that we really like. Not really a bruiser off road vehicle but awesome in the snow which is important where we live and travel. 17.7 mpg. No matter how fast we drive. Easy to get parts and maintain anywhere. It's only a half ton vehicle but with airbags in the rear and a simple build inside it does all we need for extended climbing or skiing trips. Unfortunately they stopped making the AWD version a few years ago so they are harder to find now. Clearance is decent and we've taken to some pretty rough places. The AWD handles really well compared to a full four wheel lifted rig.
H

Mountain climber
there and back again
Dec 9, 2016 - 01:26pm PT
any pics Norm
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Dec 9, 2016 - 01:57pm PT
Ah, starting price for the Earth Roamer? $280K. Have at it, Mr. Trump!

BAd
GuapoVino

climber
Dec 9, 2016 - 02:01pm PT
I was going to suggest.....then I saw you wanted to put giant tires and a lift kit on it.

In that case go to govplanet.com and check out the LMVT's. It's a site auctioning off military equipment. You can get them for as cheap as $4000 with as little as 2000 miles on them (but 20 years old). You can find videos on Youtube where people or conversion companies have converted them into overland campers. Caterpillar diesel with an Allison transmission. I've read and talked to people who get anywhere from 10-13 mpg. Stock they only go about 55mph but you can change the gearing in the axles and disbale the limiter to go about 80.

I toyed around with doing that but just decided to be normal and get a Promaster.


jonnyrig

climber
Dec 9, 2016 - 02:32pm PT
Stay away from the 6.0 and 6.4 liter ford diesels. They will break, you won't be fixing them yourself, and it's expensive. The 6.0 can be bullet-proofed for a pile of money; but you probably don't want to spend that either. The 7.3 ford diesel is far more reliable, though you'd be getting an older engine. They can have their own problems, like injectors wearing out, and if you go anywhere without having a crankshaft position sensor and a 10mm wrench in your glovebox (along with knowing how to change it) you're a bit foolish.

Personally, given that most 4x4 van conversions are specialized and therefore servicing them is specialized and expensive, I'd stick with a 4x4 truck and a camper shell (not necessarily a full-on cab-over camper though). For my money (and I happen to have recently bought one) I would consider the dodge mega cab series. Just for grins, why not go down and take a look at one? Seriously, the back seats recline. Also, they fold down fully forward, and though I haven't tried it yet, I think it makes a flat enough platform to sleep on. I would imagine you could get creative with the pickup bed with a shell and some kind of home-made insert (I haven't got that far yet). For ours, both kids car seats fit easily, with plenty of room for myself, my wife, and another passenger. But hey, that's just my take on it. It has the 5.9 diesel with a 6spd, 4x4, and I'm averaging between 14 and 18mpg at 70-75mph everywhere.

Then again, I see your wife wants to be able to stand up and move about, cook, etc. Pickup with a flip-top camper instead? Maybe not.

Good luck with your search.
or.....
psykokid

Mountain climber
Pasadena
Dec 9, 2016 - 03:21pm PT
You dont need a humungo van with a 6" lift and 33's or 35's to go where you have listed as your backcountry destinations. A good set of AT or MT tires and some driving skill can get you a ton a places.

That being said since you are looking for a van to convert I'd second DMT's recommendation of looking at the Sprinter 4x4. We've got a 170" hi-top version at work (albeit non 4x4) and it's really nice to drive.
Oplopanax

Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
Dec 9, 2016 - 03:32pm PT
Mitsubishi Delica

buy an import in BC and bring south across border. hell buy 2, you'll need the second one for parts. ($10K each)
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 9, 2016 - 03:34pm PT
my thought too, psykokid: just drive it off the road, any old van will do.

I see the length of wheelbase on those sprinters and I feel kinda queasy, like I might get stuck like a turtle on a fencepost. desert pinstripes would be the least of the worries in something that long.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Dec 9, 2016 - 03:53pm PT
Nut.... seeing how you roll in that Prius, I think that you would love a VW Van..... the old style one, motor in the back, H2O cooled, with camper pop top. Get a 88 or newer....

Some will yell that the maintenance is way to hi, but compared to the GIANT 4X4..... its cheap.

http://www.gowesty.com/


EDIT.... The next rig for me will be something just like Cragman posted.






Juan Maderita

Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
Dec 9, 2016 - 04:03pm PT
NutAgain!,
You might state your budget. Also anticipated miles driven per year, etc.
I'm a hardcore 4x4 Ford van guy. On my third one, currently a 1997 E-350 extended, V-10. 33" BFG AT, 3.73:1 axle ratio, 12k winch. ARB Air Lockers and onboard air, manual locking hubs. It sees 100+ miles of dirt roads in Baja per month, desert and mountains. The V-10 sucks gas, but it can pull a fully loaded 20' enclosed trailer full of desert toys over the mountains without slowing down.
A Ford Econoline (E150, E250, E350) is built on a solid truck frame, has readily available and inexpensive (comparatively) parts, and any mechanic can work on it. Aftermarket parts for offroad are available.

The 5.4L seems to give the best mileage and sufficient power if not towing heavy trailers. The 7.3L diesel is an older engine with a reputation for reliability, but IIRC out of production for 10+ years. Haven't heard good things about the 6.0L diesel's reliability. With the changes in smog laws and required equipment on new diesel engines, I'd stick with gas. Unless driving excessive miles per year, like 25K plus miles, it probably has no cost benefit.

The Econoline should accommodate 33's with a moderate lift. You could get by with 3.73 gears without having to replace the ring & pinion set in both axles. 35's are likely problematic and I think you would need 4.10 or lower gears with the 5.4L. No need to go that route as it only gives another 1" of clearance under the diffs anyway.

You wrote, "I think I want a limited slip differential in the back for normal 2WD mode, with an option to turn on locking diff in front when the 4WD is engaged."
A limited slip differential may be helpful, assuming it works and the internal clutches are not worn out. The torque bias is useful on the road, but not powerful enough offroad when you really need it. Add a true locking differential in the rear if you want to increase traction capability. A "selectable locker" will give you the option to turn it on and off, to avoid the unusual and sometimes objectionable handling characteristics of a full-time locker. The Eaton E-Locker is my preference. Engage with the press of a button. http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsServices/Vehicle/Differentials/index.htm
ARB Air Lockers are durable, but it requires a source of compressed air (more expense) and the pump or airline can fail. Avoid going cheap with a "lunchbox locker" such as, Powertrax "LockRight". Not suitable for a rear diff and when it grenades you will have to replace other parts at great expense.
Much of the time I get by with locking the rear diff and remaining in 2WD. A rear locker in 2WD is sometimes as capable or more capable than 4WD with open diffs. 4WD with conventional open diffs only provides traction to 2 wheels, one front and one rear, those with the least amount of traction!
You could put a limited slip in the front diff. A heavy duty gear-driven type like the Detroit TrueTrac would be best. http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsServices/Vehicle/Differentials/detroit-truetrac/index.htm#tabs-1 That avoids some steering issues that a locking diff would create. But, if you want the ultimate in traction, then go with a selectable locker up front, in addition to the rear locker.

If budget is a consideration, you might look for a used 2WD camper van conversion. 4WD is a big add-on expense, even in the used market, though there are some deals to be found. Add a rear locking diff to the 2WD and a moderate lift with 31"-33" all terrain tires. Pencil the build for new, longer, shocks. That will take you most places. The rear overhang (departure angle) of the extended van is a compromise (interior space vs. offroad capability). If you aren't already informed about tire pressure, read up on it; it's a huge factor when it comes to traction and flotation on sand.

Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Dec 9, 2016 - 04:06pm PT
Toyota Tundra 4x with full sized camper?

Reliable
Not as expensive as new Sprinter (at least until you put the camper on it)
4x4 with loads of clearance
Toyota in grey means the desert pin striping doesn't show up... as bad
Full sized camper means amenities and sleeping space
Psilocyborg

climber
Dec 9, 2016 - 04:14pm PT
My 4runner works out great. On the outside its all city and has dark tinted windows, so no matter where it is parked it does not look like people are sleeping inside. Especially when parked next to a camper van haha. Me and my sweetheart can sleep comfy in the back no problem. EZ-UP over the back provides a living room. Yeah a van would be more comfortable, but I drive it to work too.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Dec 9, 2016 - 04:59pm PT
Your budget is a big part of the question.

Also do you expect it to be a daily driver too?

I looked at lots of options and projected the costs. It made sense to buy 2 cars and a truck for us. I kept my Subaru for ski day trips and my daily driver. Bought my wife a nice Prius that gets used for long trips and is the first choice of car unless awd or the truck is needed.

Then we only use the truck for camping trips and towing. Only about 3,000-5,000 miles a year. So I bought an older 1999 f250 crew cab 7.3 diesel 4x4 with a medium amount of miles for its age 200,000 but the 7.3 can go 500,000. And a pretty big slide in camper. Since we have 2 kids. I've had no problems with it and I'm very happy with it. It will go anywhere with a lot of power. Gets about 14 with the camper 17-19 without. I love having the bathroom at about 4 in the morning when I need to take a leak. And I love the shower, full kitchen, solar panel, heater, queen bed that you don't have to set up. Etc. all for about $17k!

Sprinters are expensive and not that reliable and cost a lot to repair. Toyotas and full size American pickups are the vehicles that will go 300k miles plus.

I'd go pick up with a pop up slide in camper if my family was smaller. For a daily driver too I'd probably go with an awd chevy express van.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 9, 2016 - 05:07pm PT
I too am a fan of the big old ford with a slide-in. Hallmark makes some nice ones but it really depends on whether you need to be able to bake a pie and flush a toilet in your truck bed. I kinda hate the Earthroamers, seem like a lotta nice exterior work, a cumbersome package a d outrageous prices.
EdBannister

Mountain climber
13,000 feet
Dec 10, 2016 - 12:55am PT
sprinter now has a 4x4 version

the problem with a ford or a chevy is you have a ford or a chevy.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Dec 10, 2016 - 06:48am PT
Always have a backup!

SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
Dec 10, 2016 - 07:23am PT
^^^^. Ahh Mike got the (rebuilt again) truck back! Too bad I came back to Santa Cruz early.

Maybe he'll indulge me for an off road camper that I've been lusting after





Susan
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
Dec 10, 2016 - 07:29am PT
You see a lot of this style around Moab. They're always Euros.

This was outside Gear Heads. I love it.



Susan

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