Armed Militia Takes Over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge HQ

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
This thread has been locked
Messages 1 - 2571 of total 2571 in this topic
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 2, 2016 - 08:48pm PT
Led by the soon to be incarcerated Ammon Bundy and other assorted nutcases who have inserted themselves into the Hammond affair in Burns Oregon.

Head cheerleader is none other than Pete Santilli, a real piece of work. The Burns Brigade will be mobilized, muster at Dennys, early dark thirty.

https://www.rt.com/usa/327762-armed-bundy-militia-oregon-ranchers/

10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jan 2, 2016 - 08:49pm PT
The Feds need to put a stop to this crap. Sorry, Ron.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Jan 2, 2016 - 08:50pm PT
Big duck hunt going down...
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 2, 2016 - 09:12pm PT
Jon: sorry but your link took my MSN browser into orbit.

Here's an ABC News link on the subject.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/peaceful-protest-oregon-wildlife-refuge-action-36061121

I think the Bundy-nuts will find all the publicity they seek this time around-------and I can hope that the Feds don't back down.
F

climber
away from the ground
Jan 2, 2016 - 09:13pm PT
The Redneck Spring perhaps?
John M

climber
Jan 2, 2016 - 09:17pm PT
shaking head.

They are in the middle of nowhere. Put a fence around them. let them out in 5 to 10 years. Don['t need to feed them, cloth them, or give them medical care. Cheaper then prison.
F

climber
away from the ground
Jan 2, 2016 - 09:21pm PT
Damn, John. That's actually a fantastic idea! I'd love to see that, rather than how I think it might play out. Just gonna have to to sit back and watch what happens to those ignorant hicks.... I hope it's not too ugly.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2016 - 09:33pm PT
I give them two days once power is cut off. -6 at 9 pm in Burns, by 5 am in the boonies it ought to be a toasty -15.

nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 2, 2016 - 09:34pm PT
Good stuff. These anti-american terrorists deserve everything coming their way.

f*#king POS's


Edit: Jon sets the over/under at 2 days. Seems reasonable.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2016 - 09:42pm PT
All schools in Harney County have been ordered closed

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2016/01/02/3735576/150-armed-militia-members-take-over-federal-building/
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 2, 2016 - 09:44pm PT
good idea. no clue what these christian terrorists will do next

and I can hope that the Feds don't back down.

They won't
John M

climber
Jan 2, 2016 - 09:48pm PT
first it was affluenza..

Now its milituenza..


over under 2 days? I'll take the over. These guys are true believers. They have a fireplace for warmth. This could last some time. After Waco the cops aren't going to want to go in their too fast.'

edit: ooh.. they have a tower.. they have the high ground. woot!

From the web..

http://cherylhill.net/firelookouts/2012/05/23/sodhouse-tower/


As with the P Ranch tower at the other end of the refuge, this tower is closed and the bottom set of stairs has been removed. It sits on a bluff with a pretty nice view. Right below is the headquarters for the wildlife refuge and beyond is Malheur Lake.



Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Jan 2, 2016 - 09:55pm PT
At one end of the spectrum is Burning Man...

... at the other this would be known as "Freezing Man"...
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 2, 2016 - 09:57pm PT

"I got this."
dirtbag

climber
Jan 2, 2016 - 10:08pm PT
What John says. Starve them out.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 2, 2016 - 10:13pm PT
They have a fireplace for warmth...and no trees to fuel it with. A lake for water...that's frozen.

No "fence them in and leave them", this is a widely used bird watching refuge. Why screw over the citizens?

No, you start a perimeter about 3 miles out and work inward. Cut utilities off, get drones up recording from every angle. APCs roll in with the "sound cannons" and water cannons, put rounds through all their truck tires and generators, teargas through the windows, then hose their asses down when they come out while death metal plays at 130dB. Over and done inside of a day. Then some long prison sentences, 20-life.

Meanwhile, be a good time to go snatch up Bundy senior down in Nevada with all his lunatic crew up there in Burns.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 2, 2016 - 11:05pm PT
So I gather the original conviction was arson for burning their own properties in 2001 and 2006? They both did time of 1 month for the dad and 1 year for the son. They were both released. Now... for some reason a judge has ordered them back to prison?

Not enough details but it sure sounds sketchy... Anyone have the details?

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2016 - 11:20pm PT
They were tried and convicted and sentenced. The Feds argued for a mandatory 5 year term, judge thought that was too severe and sentenced them to a shorter term. Feds successfully appealed on the grounds that Federal sentencing was mandatory minimum 5 years. So back to jail they go.

The right wing nut jobs are trying to make this all about land rights but it is really about mandatory minimum sentencing. When it was black people getting screwed these same right wingers called it law and order, tough on crime, blah blah blah
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:24am PT
I like John M's original idea. A self-supporting prison has great virtue. In addition, if we keep them out of the headlines, they may starve for lack of what they really crave -- a platform for their fantasies.

John
Rock!...oopsie.

Trad climber
the pitch above you
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:41am PT
One redneck finger slip from a group Darwin Award for 2016.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:45am PT
Where's Ron when you need him?

We want info, man!
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:52am PT
Since the US Attorney's office felt it was appropriate to try the Hammond's under the Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act for a prescribed burn that overlapped onto 139 acres of public land scrub brush; maybe they will try the Bundy's under the Migratory Bird Treaty Act since they took over a waterfowl refuge headquarters.

Forget about the Bundy idiots. If you look into the Hammond case and find that it is anything other than Feds trying to push people off their land then I can only assume you believed that WACO was full of child molesters too.
Argon

climber
North Bay, CA
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:05am PT
It seems that many of us here have no problem with expanding the size of our federal government's footprint.

Check out this link:

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/

Keep in mind that this is the same government agency that raided the Gibson guitar factory in Tennessee with its version of Seal Team Six.

You may not want to share a pew with the Bundy's at their church - but at least they won't kill you for apostasy.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:07am PT
A refresher on the Hammond convictions.

It was Arson for burning federal land, not their own, and they handed out printed match books that they would do it as a protest.

http://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/eastern-oregon-ranchers-convicted-arson-resentenced-five-years-prison

Jurors were told that Steven Hammond handed out “Strike Anywhere” matches with instructions that they be lit and dropped on the ground because they were going to “light up the whole country on fire.” One witness testified that he barely escaped the eight to ten foot high flames caused by the arson.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:18am PT
Lorenzo,

I gather you would have been comfortable rubbing Janet Reno's feet while she drove the tank into the nursery area at Waco then?
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:21am PT
The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to prejudice any claims of the United States, or of any particular state.

Section 4.

The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government, and shall protect each of them against invasion; and on application of the legislature, or of the executive (when the legislature cannot be convened) against domestic violence.
Article 4, sec.3&4 United States constitution.

Pesky constitution right wingers are alway quoting.

The most right wing court in history refused to even hear an appeal.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:25am PT
She likes it when you go easy on the bunions.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:27am PT
Oh goodie, somebody came to stand in for Ron and Rokjox.
Dude, you're right there in Idaho, shouldn't you be packing your toothbrush and heading on over to the front?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:35am PT
We went over and shot some geese just off the Malhuer refuge yesterday. On some other private land that .gov has been eyeballing for quite a while as well. Looking back I'm surprised how we didn't get arrested under the terrorist act also.

I don't care to shoot sky carp too much but I thought I would check out the scene. Most of Burns would just as soon see the Bundy's go home, but then again they know the government has been going after the Hammond ranch since before the BLM had pastel patches so they don't get the big deal.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:40am PT
The only part of the constitution this POS's give a sh#t about is the second amendment. the rest is toilet paper.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:42am PT
We went over and shot some geese just off the Malhuer refuge yesterday. On some other private land that .gov has been eyeballing for quite a while as well. Looking back I'm surprised how we didn't get arrested under the terrorist act also.

If they were dusky Canada geese you deserve a cell next to the one reserved for the arsonists.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:50am PT
Actually, the Dusky Geese have a more bitter taste that my wife finds pleasing.

The hard part is disabling the radio collars so we lay off of them now.



Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:55am PT
Back to the Hammond case, since Lorenzo obviously doesn't own a map, the Feds have been after their ranch for decades to annex the wildlife refuge. A quick review into the history tells you all you need to know.

Unfortunately, the message of .gov overbearance is carried by idiots with the last name of Bundy.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:58am PT
And a quick review of Bundy's and their militia sub men tells us all we need to know.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:12am PT
I'm guessing they have a tunnel connected to Walmart that was left over from Jade Helm 15. They could have a lifetime supply of Slim Jim's.
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:23am PT
As others have said, the problem here is government overreach, with a capitol O, plus double standard.

How many prescribed burns by USFS and BLM have gotten out of control, on public land?

Have any fire fighters or land managers been charged or gone to jail, much less on terrorism charges?

Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:28am PT
I think it's worthwhile to copy & paste to this thread the link Lorenzo shows. Note: The convection was for arson on Federal lands. http://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/eastern-oregon-ranchers-convicted-arson-resentenced-five-years-prison


Department of Justice

U.S. Attorney’s Office

District of Oregon

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Wednesday, October 7, 2015

Eastern Oregon Ranchers Convicted of Arson Resentenced to Five Years in Prison

EUGENE, Ore. – Dwight Lincoln Hammond, Jr., 73, and his son, Steven Dwight Hammond, 46, both residents of Diamond, Oregon in Harney County, were sentenced to five years in prison by Chief U.S. District Judge Ann Aiken for arsons they committed on federal lands.

A jury sitting in Pendleton, Oregon found the Hammonds guilty of the arsons after a two-week trial in June 2012. The trial involved allegations that the Hammonds, owners of Hammond Ranches, Inc., ignited a series of fires on lands managed by the U.S. Bureau of Land Management (BLM), on which the Hammonds had grazing rights leased to them for their cattle operation.

The jury convicted both of the Hammonds of using fire to destroy federal property for a 2001 arson known as the Hardie-Hammond Fire, located in the Steens Mountain Cooperative Management and Protection Area. Witnesses at trial, including a relative of the Hammonds, testified the arson occurred shortly after Steven Hammond and his hunting party illegally slaughtered several deer on BLM property. Jurors were told that Steven Hammond handed out “Strike Anywhere” matches with instructions that they be lit and dropped on the ground because they were going to “light up the whole country on fire.” One witness testified that he barely escaped the eight to ten foot high flames caused by the arson. The fire consumed 139 acres of public land and destroyed all evidence of the game violations. After committing the arson, Steven Hammond called the BLM office in Burns, Oregon and claimed the fire was started on Hammond property to burn off invasive species and had inadvertently burned onto public lands. Dwight and Steven Hammond told one of their relatives to keep his mouth shut and that nobody needed to know about the fire.

The jury also convicted Steven Hammond of using fire to destroy federal property regarding a 2006 arson known as the Krumbo Butte Fire located in the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge and Steen Mountain Cooperative Management and Protection Area. An August lightning storm started numerous fires and a burn ban was in effect while BLM firefighters fought those fires. Despite the ban, without permission or notification to BLM, Steven Hammond started several “back fires” in an attempt save the ranch’s winter feed. The fires burned onto public land and were seen by BLM firefighters camped nearby. The firefighters took steps to ensure their safety and reported the arsons.

By law, arson on federal land carries a five-year mandatory minimum sentence. When the Hammonds were originally sentenced, they argued that the five-year mandatory minimum terms were unconstitutional and the trial court agreed and imposed sentences well below what the law required based upon the jury’s verdicts. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, however, upheld the federal law, reasoning that “given the seriousness of arson, a five-year sentence is not grossly disproportionate to the offense.” The court vacated the original, unlawful sentences and ordered that the Hammonds be resentenced “in compliance with the law.” In March 2015, the Supreme Court rejected the Hammonds’ petitions for certiorari. Today, Chief Judge Aiken imposed five year prison terms on each of the Hammonds, with credit for time they already served.

“We all know the devastating effects that are caused by wildfires. Fires intentionally and illegally set on public lands, even those in a remote area, threaten property and residents and endanger firefighters called to battle the blaze” stated Acting U.S. Attorney Billy Williams.

“Congress sought to ensure that anyone who maliciously damages United States’ property by fire will serve at least 5 years in prison. These sentences are intended to be long enough to deter those like the Hammonds who disregard the law and place fire fighters and others in jeopardy.”

Assistant U.S. Attorneys Frank R Papagni, Jr., AnneMarie Sgarlata and Kelly Zusman handled the prosecution of this case.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:40am PT
How many prescribed burns by USFS and BLM have gotten out of control, on public land?

The second "prescribed burn" was started during a burn ban, which is was started the court proceedings in the first place. They endanger firefighters.

I thought conservatives were against anarchy, or is that only when it is done by the left and people they don't like?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:54am PT
The detail that's missing from the accounts above (or at least I didn't see in skimming)

They set the fire to cover up a crime of illegally harvesting deer without tags or license. Set a fire to cover a crime, and that's arson. They set the fire to cover up the evidence, and were convicted. The crime carried a mandatory minimum sentence of 5 years. Judge sentenced to less than 2 yrs, prosecuters appealed, and the appropriate sentence was applied.

Their own relative flipped and testified against them.

There is nothing controversial in what happened to these assclowns whatsoever. If you disagree with mandatory minimums (and I do, personally), fine. But that gets addressed through the legislative process, and clemency/pardons. Not through right wing nut job, Timothy McVeigh style domestic terrorism.

WBraun

climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:55am PT
Armed finger waging lip service do nothing stooportopo crackpots sounding off on their board again ....
Argon

climber
North Bay, CA
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:56am PT
"I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical."

Thomas Jefferson
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:58am PT

Oh goodie, somebody came to stand in for Ron and Rokjox.
Dude, you're right there in Idaho, shouldn't you be packing your toothbrush and heading on over to the front?

Most militia types don't need tooth brushes.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:09am PT
They were tried and convicted and sentenced. The Feds argued for a mandatory 5 year term, judge thought that was too severe and sentenced them to a shorter term. Feds successfully appealed on the grounds that Federal sentencing was mandatory minimum 5 years. So back to jail they go.

The right wing nut jobs are trying to make this all about land rights but it is really about mandatory minimum sentencing. When it was black people getting screwed these same right wingers called it law and order, tough on crime, blah blah blah

For the record, the reason they argued (successfully) for the 5 year term was due to the statue used in the original case - Anti-Terrorism Act.

So, if you feel comfortable with the prospect of .gov sentencing you to 5 years as a terrorist for accidentally pulling a flake off your favorite J-Tree route then, by all means, carry on.
Argon

climber
North Bay, CA
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:14am PT
"Most militia types don't need toothbrushes."

Neither does ISIS:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QOf5Vv73u1c
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:14am PT
Anti-terror act not invoked. They would be incarcerated a lot longer if that were true.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:16am PT
i love quoting Jefferson. He's like quoting the bible.you can find anything you want.


Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:20am PT
Anti-terror act not invoked. They would be incarcerated a lot longer if that were true.

The burns brothers would fit the definition of a terrorist act. Blame Bush. He got the patriot act passed.

Section 802 of the USA PATRIOT Act (Pub. L. No. 107-52) expanded the definition of terrorism to cover ""domestic,"" as opposed to international, terrorism. A person engages in domestic terrorism if they do an act ""dangerous to human life"" that is a violation of the criminal laws of a state or the United States, if the act appears to be intended to: (i) intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping. Additionally, the acts have to occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States and if they do not, may be regarded as international terrorism.
couchmaster

climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:22am PT

Hmmm, I don't support a bunch of ignorant armed people taking over a federal property, and hadn't heard the "slaughtered deer charge" before, but if anyone is interested this is the local version of events printed in the big city newspaper 300 miles away.

" By Les Zaitz | The Oregonian/OregonLive


on December 31, 2015 at 5:15 AM, updated December 31, 2015 at 5:38 PM
Showdown in Burns

BURNS – Rancher Dwight Hammond Jr. paused while loading cattle one recent day to listen to the fundraising pitch.

Another rancher was selling raffle tickets, raising money for local scholarships while working cattle southeast of town.

Hammond drew out his wallet and pulled out the only currency he had – a $100 bill. He bought five tickets, never asking for change.

Hammond has reached for his wallet a lot in this country. He and his ranch family have supported virtually every charitable activity there is around Harney County. They buy youngsters' animals at 4H sales. They host barbecues. They support the local senior center.

But now Hammond, 73, won't be a fixture in the community much longer. He's headed back to federal prison to serve nearly five years for arson. He will be joined by one of his sons, Steve, 46, who faces up to four years.

Their arrival in prison, scheduled for Monday, won't quiet the controversy that has swirled around their case for years.

The men were convicted of arson, but under a provision of an expansive federal law punishing terrorism. They each served prison terms that the sentencing judge thought just, only to be told by appellate judges they had to go back to serve longer.

Their case heightened debate about how the federal government runs its lands. The United States of America holds deed to three-fourths of Harney County. Ranching done for a century and more is under pressure from environmentalists, recreationalists, and hunters.

Across the country, there is deepened concern about how authorities apply justice. And the issue of how to use federal land affects anyone who has been to a national forest or a federal wildlife refuge.

The plight of the Hammonds has become a rallying call for one militia and patriot group after another. Men who see tyranny in federal acts are standing for the two men, though the Hammonds have said through their lawyers they want no part of the militancy.

The Hammonds, who built a solid reputation and a prosperous ranching outfit in Oregon's most remote corner over the past 50 years, are keeping quiet. They declined an interview request and didn't answer written questions about their ranching, their crimes, and their new protectors.

Instead, just before Christmas, they issued a family statement:

"Our family appreciates the support of our local community. We have lived here, raised our families here, invested our time here, and grown our ranching business here because of the shared values of community, land stewardship, and family. We hope to see those values continue for many generations to come."

The Hammonds

Dwight Hammond was about 22 when he moved to the Diamond Valley, a remote range where cattle baron Pete French once held sway. Hammond and his wife Susan started Hammond Ranches Inc., beginning with about 7,000 acres.

Today, Hammond Ranches owns about 12,000 acres in the Diamond-Frenchglen area. They use this ground to run cattle during the winter. Until two years ago used 26,420 acres of land belonging to the U.S. Bureau of Land Management for summer grazing.

Over the years, Hammond built a side business trucking livestock while his youngest son, Steve, helped run the ranch.

Together, they and their wives became civic anchors, according to letters later submitted to federal court. They served on school boards and nonprofit boards. They were active in industry groups, with Steve Hammond once serving as president of the Harney County Farm Bureau.

The elements that ultimately led the Hammond men to prison were fire and federal land.

Fire is a tool on the high plateau of eastern Oregon, used to burn invasive species that crowd out native grass and other plants. But it is also a threat. Recent wildfires have scorched hundreds of thousands of acres in this territory, putting the ground off limits for grazing. Cattle have been killed in the runaway blazes, and lives endangered.

In 1999, Dwight Hammond got a stern letter from the local manager for the federal land bureau saying that Steve Hammond had set a fire that spread to bureau ground. The letter said Steve told officials in a subsequent meeting that he "did not believe there was any way to control fire behavior or where it would burn, and that he did not take any action to prevent the fire from burning."

It wasn't the family's first run-in with federal authorities. Five years earlier, Dwight Hammond had been arrested but not prosecuted in a dispute over access to water with managers of the huge Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, one of the nation's premier stops for migratory birds. Heavy equipment from the Hammond ranch obstructed a crew building a fence to keep cattle out.

And in 1999, Steve Hammond confronted hunters on land bureau property near his ranch. The hunters said the next day "he fired several shots from his firearm that the hunting party heard about, but he said he was shooting at rabbits," Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Papagni Jr. said in court recently. Hammond was convicted later of interfering with use of public land.

An attorney for Steve Hammond said in a court filing that his actions "arose out of his belief that there was something wrong with a system that authorized commercial hunting of wildlife that temporarily wandered onto barren public land from private land lush with forage."

In the case of the 1999 fire on bureau land, the federal manager left off by warning the family not to let it happen again.

But lighting public rangeland on fire is exactly what federal prosecutors say the Hammonds proceeded to do.

The fires

The first fire came in 2001: a simple prescribed burn, intended to take out invasive juniper, by Steve and Dwight Hammond's account.

But federal prosecutors said the men's real motive for starting the blaze, which consumed 139 acres and forestalled grazing for two seasons, was to cover up evidence of an illegal slaughter of deer. The government presented evidence that Steven Hammond called an emergency dispatcher to ask if it was OK to burn -- roughly two hours after they already lit the fire. His attorney said in court that Hammond called the land bureau beforehand.

The government acknowledged that the next fire, in 2006, was intended as a defensive move. Steve Hammond set backfires to keep a lightning-caused fire from burning onto the Hammonds' ranch and hitting their winter feed.

But the government said Steve Hammond lit up on the flanks of a butte, despite a countywide burn ban and the knowledge that young part-time firefighters were camped up higher. Their crew boss spotted the fires, which were set at night, and moved the crew.

How prosecutors pursued the ensuing criminal case over the two fires is what bothers Hammond supporters.

When the men were indicted in 2010 on federal arson charges, they faced sentencing under the federal Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996. Some Hammond backers and a host of recent social media posts translated that to mean the Hammonds were treated as terrorists.

"When you starting bringing in the terrorism act for God-fearing livestock producers in eastern Oregon, something is wrong," said Barry Bushue, a Multnomah County berry farmer and president of the Oregon Farm Bureau.

Federal prosecutors say they did no such thing.

"At no time have I ever called these two men terrorists. Never," Papagni, the federal prosecutor, said in court last October. "They committed arson."

But the five-year sentence mandated by terrorism law also concerned people. Among the critics: the federal judge who presided over the Hammonds' trial in Pendleton.

U.S. District Judge Michael Hogan said at the men's original sentencing in 2012 that such a term would be unconstitutional as cruel and unusual punishment.

"It would be a sentence which would shock the conscience," Hogan said before sentencing Dwight to three months and Steve to one year.

The men served their time and went home to raise cattle. But their case, it turned out, was far from settled.

Amanda Marshall, then U.S. attorney for Oregon, said she recommended the government challenge Hogan's sentence as illegal.

"If the government stands by and doesn't pursue the statutorily mandated sentence in this case, what kind of precedent does that set?" Marshall asked. Hogan, she said, imposed "an unlawful sentence."

Papagni, the federal prosecutor, said in court last fall that "the government did what we are supposed to do when someone doesn't follow the law, be it a judge or be it two ranchers in eastern Oregon."

The solicitor general at the U.S. Justice Department authorized a rare appeal of an Oregon judge's order.

The appeals court sided with the prosecution, and the Hammonds trooped to federal court last October to face a second sentencing.

Family and supporters filled the Eugene courtroom and U.S. Chief District Judge Ann Aiken gave the two convicted ranchers a chance to speak.

"I have nothing to say," Steve Hammond said.

"I have got nothing to say," Dwight Hammond said.

"Really?" the judge asked. "That's so unusual."

She sentenced them to prison to finish five-year terms but left them free until after the holidays.

The punishment

The Hammonds' pending return trip to prison deeply troubles ranchers and others.

"There's nobody in history who has gone to federal prison for burning a few acres of public property," said Melodi Molt, a Harney County rancher and former president of Oregon CattleWomen. "It's not right."

The Oregon Farm Bureau said the second prison term is "gross government overreach and the public should be outraged."

And then there is what some locals see as a government land grab.

The Hammonds in late 2014 agreed to pay the federal government $400,000 to settle a lawsuit seeking to force them to pay more than a $1 million in costs for fighting fires they set. The Hammonds paid $200,000 right away and paid the rest Thursday.

The settlement also required the Hammonds to give the land bureau first chance at buying a particular ranch parcel adjacent to public land if they intended to sell. For some, this was evidence that the government all along was after the Hammond ground to add to its Steens Mountain holdings.

"One thing that upsets cattle people is that provision," said Bob Skinner, a Jordan Valley rancher representing the Oregon Cattlemen's Association. But federal attorneys said the land provision was inserted in case the Hammonds felt they had to sell ranchland to pay the settlement. The Hammonds apparently won't face that prospect because they intend to pay the balance.

As the men pack for prison, the family faces challenges to keep the cattle business going.

The federal land bureau last year decided not to renew grazing permits because of the criminal convictions. A Boise lawyer appealing the decision said the loss will strain the ranch.

Molt said ranchers are ready to support the Hammond outfit.

"All they have to do is call on community members if they need help," said Molt.

But at this point only President Obama can spare the Hammonds from serving their full sentence. A pardon isn't expected, and clemency takes years to process.

Bushue, the farm bureau president, noted Obama earlier this year commuted sentences for drug offenders.

"I hope the president looks as kindly on community members as he does with drug offenders," Bushue said.

Meanwhile, the long federal case has revealed friction within the Hammond family, and it's cast light on a lesser-known conflict between the authorities and the Hammonds.

A key witness for the government's arson case was a family member who was a teenager at the time of the 2001 fire. The Oregonian/OregonLive is not naming him because some material presented in court, concerning his experiences with the Hammonds, was gathered while he was a minor.

The young man testified how he and his relatives started the blaze. He said in court that Steve Hammond gave him a box of matches on a September morning and told him to "light up the whole country on fire." He testified that his relatives told him later that day to keep quiet about what happened.

In October, prosecutors told a judge the young man had a reason he didn't talk about the arson for eight years.

According to a court document filed by prosecutors in the arson case, the government's witness told federal agents "he feared when Steven Hammond learned he had talked to police, that Steven would come to his front door and kill him."

According to police reports filed as part of the Hammonds' second sentencing, the boy previously had accused Steve Hammond of physical abuse when he was 16 and living with Dwight and Susan Hammond.

He said the Hammonds disapproved that he'd used a paperclip to carve two initials in his chest, according to a Harney County sheriff's deputy who interviewed the boy. The teenager told the investigator "Steve used a very coarse sand paper to sand off the initials," the deputy's report said. The teen said Dwight Hammond left the room but that Susan Hammond stayed, telling him to clean up afterward and "not to have a pity party," the report said.

Steve Hammond was charged with criminal mistreatment, but a diversion agreement got the charge dismissed. He had to take anger management classes, perform 40 hours of community service, and stay away from his nephew.

Dwight Hammond explained it was "decided by the family" to sand off the initials, the investigating deputy wrote. None of the Hammonds would say who did the sanding, the investigator's report said.

Steve Hammond did make one thing clear during their three-hour interview, the investigator wrote, telling the deputy "he did not agree with the government getting involved in family matters."
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:31am PT
If people are going to generalize about Government overreach, then generalizations about rancher's use of public lands is fair game.

Because ranchers lease a plot of OUR land, they think they have the right to turn it into a private hunting preserve. They often alow local law enforcement and elected officials to hunt on that land to gain favor. They tend to think they are the administrators of that land and should not have to pay to use it. They often kill Beaver, Coyotes and Deer as pest and competitors to their stock. They see well intentioned forest workers, biologists, and land managers as big government agents, treading on their rights and use intimidation to keep them at bay. I've seen some of this first hand.

How's that for generalizations?
dirtbag

climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:52am PT
Interesting article, Couchmaster.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:59am PT
The last few paragraphs were particularly illuminating. He complains about the gov interfering in a family mutilation.
overwatch

climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 09:43am PT
Packing for prison?
TWP

Trad climber
Mancos, CO & Bend, OR
Jan 3, 2016 - 10:10am PT
Supertopo threads can become incredible in variant ways:

1. Incredible crackpot views get expressed

BUT ALSO

2. Incredibly deep background info of apparently reliable nature emerges that goes further than the general media coverage of an event.

Just have to separate the wheat from the shaff.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 3, 2016 - 10:31am PT
Them boys jess got a wee bit too big fer their britches. Maybe they'll lose some weight in
the Big House.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Jan 3, 2016 - 10:34am PT
Quick, gather up the women and children to walk amongst them for protection.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 3, 2016 - 12:25pm PT
American Terrorists, aka Yallqaeda
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jan 3, 2016 - 12:49pm PT
These clowns are antagonizing the wrong people, armed Federal agents. If these guys start brandishing/aiming weapons towards the Feds, it's all over.

The Feds need to make an example of these types. Wrong way to get things done.
overwatch

climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 01:05pm PT
you mean the same feds that let them get away with it the first time?

why wouldn't they try it again it worked once
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 3, 2016 - 01:06pm PT
I disagree, the feds are ignoring them, in fact they are letting them come and go. This will end with little more than a whimper. The morons will end up looking silly. I would not rule out eventual arrests, but they will ley the clowns have their fun just like the occupy crowd and the black lives people did
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Jan 3, 2016 - 01:10pm PT
The Feds proved once and for all at Gettysburg who really rules the roost. The Mafia thought they could be top dogs, but where are they now? When push comes to shove, the US Gov't has the US Army. This incident does reveal some of the forces leading toward a possible breakup of the USA sometime in the future. Texas and Alaska, possibly Idaho, secede from the Union? Go check out what Senator John C. Calhoun has to say on the subject.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 01:19pm PT
Haha. Great.

We get Thomas Jefferson and John C Calhoun I one thread.

Calhoun was also against provisions of the Land Act of 1784, which was passed by Congrress and had the following provisions.

The Ordinance of 1784 (enacted April 23, 1784) called for the land in the recently created United States of America west of the Appalachian Mountains, north of the Ohio River and east of the Mississippi River to be divided into separate states.

It was adopted by the United States Congress of the Confederation under the Articles of Confederation.


The new states shall remain forever a part of the United States of America.
They shall bear the same relation to the confederation as the original states.
They shall pay their apportionment of the federal debts.
They shall in their governments uphold republican forms.
After the year 1800 there shall be neither slavery nor involuntary servitude in any of them.

Thomas Jefferson was the principal author. It eventually was extended westward with the Louisiana purchase and is the basis for the formation of the BLM.

10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jan 3, 2016 - 01:19pm PT
I disagree, the feds are ignoring them, in fact they are letting them come and go. This will end with little more than a whimper. The morons will end up looking silly. I would not rule out eventual arrests, but they will ley the clowns have their fun just like the occupy crowd and the black lives people did{/quote]

agreed



The Feds proved once and for all at Gettysburg who really rules the roost. The Mafia thought they could be top dogs, but where are they now? When push comes to shove, the US Gov't has the US Army. This incident does reveal some of the forces leading toward a possible breakup of the USA sometime in the future. Texas and Alaska, possibly Idaho, secede from the Union? Go check out what Senator John C. Calhoun has to say on the subject.

I don't know about Alaska, or Idaho seceding, but we can only hope that texass does.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 01:21pm PT
they should be out-occupied by the restofus burning man style smothering their protest with a stinking starvation crisis

A prescription burn?
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 01:23pm PT
Let me see here. - OK


Gives the appearance of an all-white enclave.




BTW, I had no trouble accessing any of the links.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Jan 3, 2016 - 01:31pm PT
A state can not cede from the nation without the permission from every other state.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 3, 2016 - 01:40pm PT
These guys are in trouble for lighting fires ... in a town called "Burns."
mooser

Trad climber
seattle
Jan 3, 2016 - 01:43pm PT
I'm a fan of starving idiocy of oxygen. If CNN, Fox, etc., would just ignore them, they'd eventually lose steam. Knuckleheads...
MikeMc

Social climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 01:50pm PT
Yallqaeda

Brilliant!

Perhaps the most annoying part is that very few, if any, locals are a part of this nonsense. I hope the locals turn their backs on these fools, and choose not to serve/sell them anything. Turn off the power, block the entrance/exits, and let them see what cold and hunger feel like.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 3, 2016 - 02:28pm PT
Yallqueda for the best word yet!!

Should be Y'allqueda.

I'm stealing it!!
overwatch

climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 03:12pm PT
that is good. who came up with that? I must have missed it
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 03:38pm PT
It is interesting that Federal law enforcers never seem to "go all in fear for their lives" like non-feds and civilians.

Take for example, the FBI. They just do the killing, investigate it themselvers, hold themselves faultless and get back to work.

“The F.B.I. takes very seriously any shooting incidents involving our agents, and as such we have an effective, time-tested process for addressing them internally,” a bureau spokesman said.

... from 1993 to early 2011, F.B.I. agents fatally shot about 70 “subjects” and wounded about 80 others — and every one of those episodes was deemed justified, according to interviews and internal F.B.I. records obtained by The New York Times through a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit.
Alois

Trad climber
Idyllwild, California
Jan 3, 2016 - 04:09pm PT
"Militia"?

If they weren't white, you'd call them what they really are: armed terrorists
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 04:11pm PT
A state can not cede from the nation without the permission from every other state.

Not true, like so many of your posts. New Hampshire, for example, is one of several of the original states that joined the Union ONLY with the agreement that it could succeed at will, should it ever in its sole determination find the federal government to become oppressive and opposed to individual and state rights. It's constitution clearly specifies this fact, and that fact was the basis upon which it joined the Union.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/09/22/where-scotland-failed-could-new-hampshire-succeed/

"New Hampshire joined the union on condition that it remain a fully sovereign state free to break the tie with the United States if that link were no longer in its interest. Article 7 of the New Hampshire Constitution declares that “the people of this state have the sole and exclusive right of governing themselves as a free, sovereign, and independent State; and do, and forever hereafter shall, exercise and enjoy every power, jurisdiction, and right, pertaining thereto, which is not, or may not hereafter be, by them expressly delegated to the United States of America in congress assembled.” Banning secession would break this original agreement."

While I think that the goofballs in OR are taking entirely the wrong tack, their case represents a growing unrest in the US with unlimited federal power. And what is a free person to do? Where is a free person to go to escape the ubiquitous reach of the feds? There is no better country, yet this nation has become a flat-out JOKE compared to the LIMITED government principles upon which it was founded.

In this nation today, you LITERALLY do not own anything. You cannot.

Think about it. Everything is subject to unilateral seizure by the IRS, without cause, without trial, and without a presumption of innocence. With your bank accounts frozen, your credit cut off, your house closed and locked to you, and your car(s) seized, THEN you have to take up your case in a federal court and PROVE that the IRS was mistaken; meanwhile your assets de facto belong to the government. The fact that the IRS rarely exercises this sweeping power does not mean they do not have it.

Property taxes perpetually keep your property leased-back to you, and failure to pay those taxes will get you evicted from your own property. In Chicago, for example, people are paying as much in property taxes as their mortgages. Entire neighborhoods of retirees are being literally taxed out of the homes they worked their lives to own outright. But they don't really own them, because the city just evicts them for their inability to pay their exorbitant property taxes.

Income taxed keep us individually beholden to the feds for every tiny detail of our lives, and THIS is what it always was about: control. There are many alternate tax schemes (such as a federal sales tax) that would be easy to implement and can be designed to be progressive, fair, and generate even more revenue than the current income tax scheme does.

SS and Medicare are the biggest, sickest pyramid/Ponzi scheme ever designed, and, again, it was about federal control rather than "security." I, for one, will see FAR less money back from the scheme than I've "invested" into it, and that's in the best case, with me living an unusually long life. And the feds keep changing the rules, in effect violating contractual obligations they had with generations of "contributors." Furthermore, I was signed up from birth, which violates every principle of contractual relations!

It goes on an on. The feds are about CONTROL over INDIVIDUALS, and 25% of people in this nation now want their particular state to secceed! MANY of us are SICK to death of federal invasion of EVERY DETAIL of our lives! And what are we to do about it? Where can we go to simple "opt out" and having nothing more to do with it.

I would GIVE UP entirely on what SS and Medicare owe me, if I could just be FREE of this nightmare. I would go to ANY state that would secede from the feds.

And what's with calling the OR group "terrorists" and charging them as "terrorists"? Since when are mere arsonists "terrorists"?

That term is now bandied about with terrifying frequency, particularly when you consider that being called a "terrorist" effectively enables the feds to SIDESTEP typical legal processes!

Look, I'm not sympathetic with the goofballs' tactics or even basic cause. But I also have NO sympathy with the FEDS!
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 3, 2016 - 04:21pm PT
^^^^
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 3, 2016 - 04:57pm PT
The feds are likely trying to deal with this lightly. The weather up there is working for them, and they have certainly learned about unintended blowback from Ruby Ridge and Waco. It is pretty easy for things to go south when dealing with people seeking the fame of martyrdom.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:07pm PT
These members of Y'all Qaeda are trying to fight for yeehawd.
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:08pm PT
What a buncha effing retards.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:10pm PT
What MB, you want to escape the government's all knowing, all controlling clutches. Shame on you for ignoring the programming.

Myself, I'm just hoping for a good old fashioned military coup typical of the third world which we are rapidly morphing to. Must be that wealth redistribution and population control we are paying the U.N. to promote.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:12pm PT

"New Hampshire joined the union on condition that it remain a fully sovereign state free to break the tie with the United States if that link were no longer in its interest. Article 7 of the New Hampshire Constitution declares that “the people of this state have the sole and exclusive right of governing themselves as a free, sovereign, and independent State; and do, and forever hereafter shall, exercise and enjoy every power, jurisdiction, and right, pertaining thereto, which is not, or may not hereafter be, by them expressly delegated to the United States of America in congress assembled.” Banning secession would break this original agreement."

Does the New Hampshire constitution take precedence over the US constitution?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:29pm PT
What if it turns out that the wildlife ends up being no worse off with these militia guys occupying the headquarters than it was when The Feds ran the place?

Maybe then we'd want to re-think the whole idea of government wildlife management.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:30pm PT

Jan 3, 2016 - 01:31pm PT
A state can not cede from the nation without the permission from every other state.


Actually the founding document, the articles of confederation and perpetual union, is an agreement between the states to form a perpetual union. The constitution didn't end that, and not all states had to agree to the constitution for it to go into effect.

There is no backing out until perpetuity expires.

The southern states tested the concept in the civil war. They lost.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:31pm PT
Funny that after all the whining about tyranny the first thing they did was block public access to public land.

Are we getting a live feed from Ron???
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:33pm PT
Property taxes perpetually keep your property leased-back to you, and failure to pay those taxes will get you evicted from your own property.

Your rant about the Feds loses its way right here; there are no Federal property taxes. Only the state and local governments you admire so much have property taxes.

And unless you can reference that written agreement, you're wrong about NH. Nothing in the NH constitution says what you claim, and even if it did, the Supremacy Clause of the US Constitution would render it void.

TE
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:34pm PT
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area

Jan 3, 2016 - 05:29pm PT
What if it turns out that the wildlife ends up being no worse off with these militia guys occupying the headquarters than it was when The Feds ran the place?

Maybe then we'd want to re-think the whole idea of government wildlife management.

The only way wildlife ends up being no worse off is if you get rid of domestic animals on range land.

Pretty sure the ranchers don't want that.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:38pm PT
New Hampshire constitution.

[Art.] 7. [State Sovereignty.] The people of this state have the sole and exclusive right of governing themselves as a free, sovereign, and independent state; and do, and forever hereafter shall, exercise and enjoy every power, jurisdiction, and right, pertaining thereto, which is not, or may not hereafter be, by them expressly delegated to the United States of America in congress assembled.

Pretty much what the constitution says.

They ratified it in June, 1784, then ratified the US constitution in 1788, wheupon they accepted the articles in the constitution.

Timeline is kinda important.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:40pm PT
^^^
Well certain wildlife is already better off. For instance, the Red Herring seems to be flourishing.

Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:43pm PT
Bulls are, too. They are leaving lots of evidence.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:51pm PT
I wonder what Y'allqueda would think if a few folks went up there to set a few hundred acres of "the people's" land on fire?

I watched Bundy's interview, and he kept going on about the people's land.

And hell, they're in the business of fighting for ground burners, so I should be all good with them.
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:52pm PT
"Funny that after all the whining about tyranny the first thing they did was block public access to public land."

Hmmm. You mean like the Feds do across the west with gates on formerly open roads and such?

Can't drive on the King's roads or shoot the King's deer now can we?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:57pm PT
Your rant about the Feds loses its way right here; there are no Federal property taxes.

I know that. My rant was not strictly about the feds. My rant is about how radically this entire nation has changed in its fundamental perspectives and what the "new normal" has come to be.

Between the IRS (feds) and the state and local property taxes, it is literally impossible to truly OWN anything at this point. There is literally no PLACE a free person can just BE, secure in their property and liberty, as long as they are operating within their God-given negative rights.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:57pm PT
The "FEDS" are not the enemy. They are fellow Americans. Your uncle, my cousin. Treat them with the respect they deserve. Your ugly language dehumanizes them.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:00pm PT
You own the roads, the airports, the infrastructure, the national park, etc.

That doesn't mean they are yours to do with as you please. It is all SHARED resources.



WHO'd a figured there were shared responsibilities. I think they call it civilization.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:03pm PT
Pretty much what the constitution says.

They ratified it in June, 1784, then ratified the US constitution in 1788, wheupon they accepted the articles in the constitution.

Timeline is kinda important.

Just ridiculous comments. "Timeline" does not imply that NH punted on what their constitutions says, and it is well-documented what their intention was in joining the Union. Comparing NH to the southern states is ridiculous, as NH guaranteed that they had the perpetual right to secede if necessary.

And the more pressing question is: What is a free person to do? Are we ALL slaves? MUST we participate in a form of government that we have come to reject due to its excesses and corruption. If we demure, what options do we have?

ANSWER the question! There are two choices you apparently accept: 1) Move to a different country; 2) BE enslaved to a government that you repudiate as having violated its founding legitimacy.

(1) is a non-starter for countless reasons. (2) means that you demand all "citizens" to be slaves.

I reject both "answers." States that have the legal right to secede CAN and even should do so. And the feds should just graciously LET such states go, thereby leaving space on planet Earth for FREE people to non-violently opt-out of the monolithic federal power that has consumed this nation.
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:05pm PT
"You own the roads, the airports, the infrastructure, the national park, etc."

The problem is the government has forgotten that. Bureaucrats think THEY own them.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:05pm PT
The "FEDS" are not the enemy. They are fellow Americans.

Flat-out lie.

The feds ARE the enemy. They have become EVERYTHING that both federalists and anti-federalists alike feared! They have repudiated every principle of our founding.

They are NOT "fellow Americans." The people running the feds are NOT Americans in any robust sense.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:07pm PT
Ya'llQaeda?

-or-

Vanilla ISIS?


Oh, and for the lunatic failed philosphy prof gurgling his bullshit above? GFYS, champ. I've given more to this nation that you ever will.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:08pm PT
madbolter1. Re your admitted rant statement?

There is literally no PLACE a free person can just BE, secure in their property and liberty, as long as they are operating within their God-given negative rights.

I believe taxes are one of the oldest human traditions, whether extracted in forced payment or forced labor. I think our being taxed does beat our being slaves as a method of supporting our infrastructure.

While your lament sounds great, only at the fringes of civilization have people ever been able to live without taxes.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:08pm PT
MB is correct in that, in principle, property taxes DO rent you your own property, but in theory the state gives you safer roads to drive "your" car that they rent you, and your county provides services for the "landowner" and "his" property that they rent to him.



In theory.



(join the Cato Institute)
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:10pm PT
The feds ARE the enemy.

Interesting. No doubt there are problems with the US government, but think about countries where there are no "feds." Which one of them would you like to live in?

zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:14pm PT
My rant is about how radically this entire nation has changed in its fundamental perspectives and what the "new normal" has come to be.

I'm curious as to your time frame here. When did the "new normal" commence in your estimation?
dirtbag

climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:15pm PT
Boohoo...mb is oppressed.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:15pm PT
"Timeline" does not imply that NH punted on what their constitutions says, and it is well-documented what their intention was in joining the Union. Comparing NH to the southern states is ridiculous, as NH guaranteed that they had the perpetual right to secede if necessary.

And the more pressing question is: What is a free person to do? Are we ALL slaves? MUST we participate in a form of government that we have come to reject due to its excesses and corruption. If we demure, what options do we have?

They ratified the entire document, including ALL the clauses. NH doesn't have any special terms in the constitution any other state doesn't have. Period.

I think what you call slavery is citizenship , with the rights AND THE DUTIES of a citizen, including the clauses that cede powers to the United States.

Among those, in article 4

Clause 2: Property Clause
The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State..

" All needful rules" is even more inclusive that the precious second ammendment right wing nut cases go on about. Funny they never read that clause.

Your constitution says you have given the right to congress to set up rules and regulations, and it is your duty as a citizen to obey until you get the rules and regulations changed by congress.

Have at it.

Anarchy is not the answer.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:18pm PT
I vaguely recall a time when people didn't fear the gubmint, at least as long
as you weren't a commie pinko. But I guess that was when the BLM was being
nice to the ranchers.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:21pm PT
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/is-secession-legal/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_state_petitions_for_secession


[url="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secession_in_the_United_States"]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secession_in_the_United_States[Italic Text/url]

Now I'm not happy about government overreach, but I don't expect to see anything but worse if the state took over. Sure, you'd own your property, but the need for cash at a state level would leave living, well, not worth living for most
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:21pm PT
Funny, I was pretty young, but I remember during the McCarthy era people feared the gummint...
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:24pm PT
Feds aren't real Americans? The enemy?

MB now you're talking weak sauce. I know hundreds of federal employees, and they're every bit robustly American as you are.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:27pm PT
It seems to me that folks that want to be let alone by the federal government should choose a line of work that doesn't require use of federal lands.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:28pm PT
Especially the ones who want free water from federal water projects.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:28pm PT
I vaguely recall a time when people didn't fear the gubmint, at least as long
as you weren't a commie pinko. But I guess that was when the BLM was being
nice to the ranchers.

I can vaguely remember a time when the government didn't expand to fill every gap and void that the citizenry didn't protect under threat of death to the bureaucrat.

Well, I've read about those times at least.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:41pm PT

I can vaguely remember a time when the government didn't expand to fill every gap and void that the citizenry didn't protect under threat of death to the bureaucrat.

Well, I've read about those times at least.

I vaguely remember a time when the citizenry chose to elect people who understood the process of governing and the citizenry went to the ballot box instead of reaching for a gun to threaten bureaucrats who were enforcing the laws elected officials passed.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:43pm PT
Ah the good old days. Harken back to when the tobacco industry had completely unfettered access to the American (and World) population without the nuisance interference of the government.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:47pm PT
There is literally no PLACE a free person can just BE, secure in their property and liberty, as long as they are operating within their God-given negative rights.

You do realize that any argument you make based on the existence of supernatural rights requires that you both prove the existence of a god, AND prove that he/she gave us those specific rights? Sh#t, never mind proof, I'll take marginally compelling circumstantial evidence for either.

At what point in the past do you believe the United States, or any large society was closest to the Libertarian perfection you yearn for? I guarantee I'll find more egregious invasions of personal security and liberty there than any current taxes or Federal regulations.

Government sucks, but it's better than the alternative.

TE
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:49pm PT
Lorenzo, you say everything I want to say, but so much better.

TE
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:53pm PT
Y'allqueda is classic...lmao.
These guys are nuts.

Madbolter1 does raise a couple of points on fed power and the perception that many have. This chart shows one thing, but these militia nuts are different and are not victims
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:53pm PT
I vaguely remember a time when the citizenry chose to elect people who understood the process of governing and the citizenry went to the ballot box instead of reaching for a gun to threaten bureaucrats who were enforcing the laws elected officials passed.

Was that before or after the bureaucrats bought the ballot box through public assistance programs? Just want to a get a sense of the time period you were reminiscing about.

Democracy doesn't equate to freedom.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:58pm PT
GFYS, champ. I've given more to this nation that you ever will.

Right back atcha, on both points.
MisterE

Gym climber
Small Town with a Big Back Yard
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:04pm PT
^^ Sheesh, MB1 (my favoite bike frame from them, BTW), this is the better quote anyway:

Ya'llQaeda?

-or-

Vanilla ISIS?

ROTFL!
WBraun

climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:05pm PT
Don't just love this guy saying; "I've given more to this nation that you ever will."

But what did he do ..... ????
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:07pm PT
but in theory the state gives you safer roads to drive "your" car that they rent you

I have NO problem with taxes, provided that they satisfy some basic principles:

1) I am purchasing a benefit to MYSELF with them. I agree to pay for police, fire-departments, schools, etc., as I enjoy a DIRECT benefit being part of the collective.

2) Robust ownership rights are preserved. This can be accomplished with tariffs and sales taxes. Income tax (at both the state and federal levels), and ALL forms of property tax (B&O taxes, etc.) set up a system whereby I am NOT in control of my own property or my own destiny.

I'm not proposing anarchy. And I'm not opposed to A federal government in principle. I'm opposed to the present federal government that has become EVERYTHING that our founders (on both sides of the "aisle" feared!).

I'm not opposed to working people IN the federal government. Those individuals are not the enemy! The people manipulating the strings behind the scenes ARE the enemy. THEY run the federal government.

And Americans that just keep voting status quo and an ever more invasive, all-powerful federal government are also the enemy. They are the enemy of their OWN freedom and of mine.

I've asked, and as yet heard NO answer: What is a FREE person to do?

I have negative rights NOT granted by ANY government, and ANY government that is in fact legitimate MUST recognize and uphold those rights.

I have a RIGHT to freedom, property (in a ROBUST sense), and equal protection under the law. NONE of these are actually recognized and upheld by our present federal government. So, what is a FREE person, endowed with rights, supposed to do? Just capitulate as a slave?

You sorry saps have NO idea how enslaved you really are. As long as you can drinks some beers while watching football, you think that it's all good.

Really, it's pathetic.
F

climber
away from the ground
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:11pm PT
Well, looks like you've got it all figured out AngryDriller. What are you going to do about it, other than rant on a climbers forum? Or shut up and figure out a way to live outside the system? My guess is the former, which only makes you part of the problem.
Lurkingtard

climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:15pm PT
Stoopid rednecks!!!





















atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:15pm PT
God given negative rights?

+1 for just making dumb sh#t up and pretending it means something.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:20pm PT
other than rant on a climbers forum?

Don't minimize the power of a good rant on an internationally-known "climbers'" forum.

Even dog-piled by the libtards that mostly own the taco stand, I'm happy to point out that we have GOOD alternatives to the present state of affairs. It is easy to legally limit federal power, even now. And in one election cycle the present surveillance-state, IRS gestapo threat, and income taxes as we have known them for many decades could be sweepingly overturned. Oh, and the "federal reserve" (that is neither) could have its stranglehold on our economy wrested back from them and returned to we the people. This is my hope, and I'll hold onto it until my dying day.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:22pm PT
+1 for just making dumb sh#t up and pretending it means something.

-100 for being so blindingly ignorant that you think I'm making it up.

Sheesh

Well, have fun guys, I've got things to do, some of which will be converted directly into income tax dollars for you to burn on your libtariness.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:22pm PT
Sorry Madbolter-

We're paying taxes for American exceptionalism, even if you live in a cave.

Part of the package is world domination, security, infrastructure, emergency support, rescue, education, health, welfare and so on.

Ya'llkeda apparently has a real problem with that whole fee/service concept, so perhaps we can draft an American Citizen, Opt-out clause with an unconditional waiver form.



Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:22pm PT
The militias are going to people showing videos of President Obama and Hillary Clinton talking trash in order to recruit more radical militants.

Maybe it's Clinton and Obama who need to check themselves, and quit throwing fuel on the fire.

rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:24pm PT
Really, it's pathetic.

I miss Cragman and his rhetoric of pathetic, but thanks for filling in to let us know where we stand. Maybe with enough words and enough surety we can convince ourselves that (other) humans are pathetic too :-)
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:27pm PT
Easy solution for the failed philosphy prof:

Go Galt, young man, go Galt!

I hear tell that Thiel guy, the dbag libertarian paypal dude was going to setup a floating barge-city in international waters for all you Ubermensch Glibertarian types to get yer Galt on.

What's the holdup? Why aren't you already out there with the "Seasteading" crew? BTW, good luck with the Somali pirates. I don't think they really give a sh#t about your "god given negative rights" or other sophist babble, and last I checked the Galt's Gulch Goobers didn't have any .50's mounted on their barge-c#m-city. Easy pickins for Sammy Somali.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:27pm PT
There is a point at which the judicial and political system no longer functions "for the people".

There is a tipping point somewhere and I consider it the duty of all citizens to work against and change the status quo.

Whether this is that time isn't for me to say, each person has their own breaking point. Some are past theirs, others seem to have an endless appetite for .gov intrusion.

But I am of the opinion that the government must be resisted lest it will consume all liberty and that is not acceptable to me.

Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:28pm PT
1) I am purchasing a benefit to MYSELF with them. I agree to pay for police, fire-departments, schools, etc., as I enjoy a DIRECT benefit being part of the collective.

Cool!

Gimme back all that money for F-22's, and Colorado dams, and the California water system, oh, I don't use those San Fransisco bridges...lets see.... That bridge to nowhere, the damn tunnel in Boston harbor, congess' plush dining hall, their health plan, I get nothing out of Air Force 1. Ain't no drone ever done me no good, the tanks they give Police forces seem silly. I want my own $600 hammer I paid for, ( must be really neat), I ain't never going to the godforsaken state of Alaska, which came out of US taxes. Let the damn dams on the Snake river rot away.

It's short notice, but I have a whole raft of crap I don't get direct benefit from, including the Hammond's irrigation the gummint paid for. The whole damn lake there is with my money. At least I bet I paid as much as they did.Come to think of it, the Louisiana purchase bought the land, too. All it's paying back is annoyance at this point.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:29pm PT
Lively thread. Who is madbolter1? Does he live in New Hampshire? Does New Hampshire want to secede? Because all my friends and family would be awfully surprised about that?

Who is madbolter1? Does he hear voices, take meds, and so on? Can somebody go check on him? He sounds a bit unhinged, with a very loose grasp of how humans and civilizations organize and succeed.

His hate on the Feds fetish is especially weird. How does he think polio got cured? The Interstate highway system built? Does he know just exactly what the Federal Government's role in the creation of the Internet was? When he flushes the toilet, where the f*#k does he think the sh#t goes? Or does he use a two-holer on some 40 acre compound in North East Idaho?

Good luck, boys.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:30pm PT
Lorenzo - you forget Big Bertha in Seattle. (that might not make any sense as I spent the afternoon and evening getting drunk and telling lies - truths, really - with Tarbuster)

Edit: and watching football with him
F

climber
away from the ground
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:33pm PT
Don't minimize the power of a good rant on an internationally-known "climbers'" forum.

That got a really high quality snort out of me.
little Z

Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:33pm PT
What if it turns out that the wildlife ends up being no worse off with these militia guys occupying the headquarters than it was when The Feds ran the place? Maybe then we'd want to re-think the whole idea of government wildlife management.

I think Escopeta, which means shotgun in Spanish, answers that question pretty clearly

Actually, the Dusky Geese have a more bitter taste that my wife finds pleasing. The hard part is disabling the radio collars so we lay off of them now.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:34pm PT

Lorenzo - you forget Big Bertha in Seattle.
Hell, I want back for nearly all of Seattle. Especially tax breaks for anything to do with the Sounders.

I'll chip in for lake Union. A friend has a houseboat there I stay at when I go there.
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:37pm PT
If I were to guess, “the authorities” will avoid any sort of confrontation with the small group protesting at the site. No one is apparently in danger as-is; so, doing nothing is probably the safest thing for everybody right now. I hope the occupied site gets sealed off so other areas of the refuge are accessible for Americans to use and enjoy as a refuge.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:39pm PT
Easy solution for the failed philosphy prof

That one I'll come back on to respond to.

You've said it twice. Now sustain it.

"Failed"? In what sense? Explain. Oh, and spell correctly, if you can, in your attempted response.
MikeMc

Social climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:41pm PT
Man this post blew up. Looks like a couple of people found the Geritol.

So much entertain
F

climber
away from the ground
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:42pm PT
Can you keep it on the off topic please?

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:44pm PT
That one I'll come back on to respond to.

Wall of text that nobody will read coming in 5...4...3...2...

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:46pm PT
But I am of the opinion that the government must be resisted lest it will consume all liberty and that is not acceptable to me.

I think you and MB agree on this point. I think we all should...
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:46pm PT
Nah. I have a special hatred for low-brow defamation, especially from an anonymous dick weed with El Cap up his a55.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:47pm PT
God given negative rights?

Hahaha... You sound like a real pit bull in small claims court.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:47pm PT
Wall of text that nobody will read coming in 5...4...3...2...

No, just calling you out for the anonymous blow-hard that you are.

You made a claim. It's defamatory. Defend it or retract it.

Simple.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:49pm PT
Hahaha...

You sound like a guy who is too ignorant to recognize how ignorant he is.

I'm taking Mark Twain's advice as soon as I settle up with El Cap up His A55: "Don't argue with stupid people. They'll drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."
MikeMc

Social climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:51pm PT
It's not a party until this guy shows up...

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:59pm PT
Okay, so apparently El Cap up his A55 has punted. Typical cheap-shot, drive-by shooting "argumentation" that is too typical here.

I sent you a PM, El Cap up your A55. Since you're too cowardly to ante up here where you started the sh|t, we'll take it offline.

I've learned that it is NEVER good to just let defamation slide.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:00pm PT
Back on topic:

The label of "Terrorism" gets put on all sorts of stuff and people we don't like. An Iraqi or Afghan shooting an invading US soldier is not a terrorist. He's possibly not even a bad guy.

US citizens using force or the threat of force to coerce the government, that's terrorism. We should deal with it the same way Bundy would insist we deal with a bunch of gun-toting koran-wielding citizens insisting that their imaginary god-given right to impose sharia-law was enshrined in the 1st amendment.

I hope the new AG does a better job than the last one. Holder's failure to prosecute after Bunkerville would lead a conspiracy-skeptic like me to believe there may have been a lot more going on than we know.

TE
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:00pm PT
Sweet action, "madbolter" threats via email:


I'm not playing with this. You've made a defamatory claim,
twice, in a public forum. Either publicly retract it or
prepare to answer for it.

If the best you can do by way of "argument" is that sort of
cheap shot, then you should be ashamed of yourself. But
since you apparently have no normal sense of what is decent,
fortunately there are laws that draw lines around what you
can stupidly say with impunity.

Two thoughts:

1. Go f*#k yourself.

2. failed
fāld/
adjective

1.(of an undertaking or a relationship) not achieving its end or not lasting; unsuccessful.

Feel free to throw money into your lawyer's bank account though, I'm sure he's willing to accept it, while laughing at your bone-f*#kin stupid bluster.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:07pm PT
I feel for ya MB, fending off cowardly robotic wacks. But is it worth the effort?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:19pm PT
Feel free to throw money into your lawyer's bank account though

Nah, it worked out, as you've shown yourself for what you are. That's all I was shooting for.

Little pricks like you have turned this forum into a flat-out cesspool.
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:20pm PT
Among the most amusing threads! The Donald crowd has showed up. What would/will The Donald do? They'll be there "for years;" I'll bet it'll get a little weird out there by inauguration day next January!
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:24pm PT
As an argument, you don't get to retro, cherry pick which fegeral expendatures you don't support and then claim you should get a tax refund.

Under that logic, most people would not have approved of using federal tax dollars to steal all the best surfing and climbing areas from Mexico.

Without all that rock and ocean we'd all be members of the Nitro Circus right now, playing in dirt.

nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:28pm PT
I'm glad you only took a short vacation from ST, Will.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:30pm PT
Well, the ranchers in question seem to be big fish. I've spent the last couple of hours reading, and listening to absolutely whacked out videos. Mainly from the Bundy sons.

The Hammond's attorney disavowed anything coming from the Bundy, etal camp. They have made this very clear. They want nothing to do with Bundy or the militias.

These aren't poor little ranchers. From what I could find, they own over ten thousand acres, and lease grazing rights for another 22,000 from the BLM.

I tend to agree that burning 140 acres of rangeland is no big deal, but the federal prosecutor took it that way and got a jury conviction.

Then there is the usual intrigue about problems between the Hammonds and the BLM. Apparently there is some history there.

As for the retards occupying the refuge headquarters, this is the second time that they have pulled this. Many of the characters were the main characters in the Bundy standoff. I have no sympathy for them. Cut the power, cut the phone lines, and let them come out crying when they run out of toilet paper.
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:46pm PT
It's a nice looking building. I would hate to see it turned to rubble. The renovation alone will fall on to American Taxpayers to pay for after the occupation. Amazing that such a small, peanut-nobody group could cause such a stir....

I was out that way last summer; boy, talk about "Y'all Qaedaville!" Nary a state trooper anywhere for hundreds of miles. We were passed by a semi while we were going 75 in a 55!
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:51pm PT
As an argument, you don't get to retro, cherry pick which fegeral expendatures you don't support and then claim you should get a tax refund.

Under that logic, most people would not have approved of using federal tax dollars to steal all the best surfing and climbing areas from Mexico.

Without all that rock and ocean we'd all be members of the Nitro Circus right now, playing in dirt.

What?

What am I, little Delaware who bought in first to the Constitution, to Madbolter's New Hampshire which got to make its own terms?

Nuh-uh.

We apparently all get to choose which stuff to pay for. The Congress we elect to decide that and answers to us be damned. This is all a lot more fun than actually voting responsibly every two years. How boring.

There's a Federal Energy Regulatory Commission office here in town. I'm taking it over until they stop giving water to Eastern Washington and I get paid back for Hanford.

There's a nice pub next door.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:52pm PT
You made a claim. It's defamatory. Defend it or retract it.

Simple


fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:52pm PT
So, it would seem the two accused are reporting for jail (again) willingly tomorrow. It would seem that should be the end of it.

Why not let the, albeit armed, men camp in Malheur for as long as they like and simply issue them citations mailed to their home addresses?

Armed confrontation sure seems stupid to me in this case.
John M

climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:52pm PT
I tend to agree that burning 140 acres of rangeland is no big deal, but the federal prosecutor took it that way and got a jury conviction.

the way the story reads it was a bit more then just setting fire to 140 acres. There was a burning ban at the time because of the dangers of the drought. The fire he set endangered some firefighters. There is another story that a possibly different fire he set was to cover up some poaching he did on federal land which they leased for cattle grazing.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:54pm PT
It disappoints me to see this thread gain so many posts so far afield, but even more so to read the vehemence with which we denigrate each other. The idiots occupying the HQ aren't worth the aggravation we're causing each other on this one, guys.

John
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 3, 2016 - 09:03pm PT
There is another story that a possibly different fire he set was to cover up some poaching he did on federal land which they leased for cattle grazing.

The Hammonds slaughtered a herd of either deer or elk, killed at least 7 and injured more according to a witness.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 3, 2016 - 09:13pm PT
The county sheriff had these comments on the subject today.

Harney County Sheriff David M. Ward said authorities from “several organizations” are working to peacefully resolve the standoff, which began Saturday when an unknown number of armed activists occupied an uninhabited building at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, about 30 miles outside the town of Burns, Ore.

“These men came to Harney County claiming to be part of militia groups supporting local ranchers, when in reality these men had alternative motives, to attempt to overthrow the county and federal government in hopes to spark a movement across the United States,” Ward said in a statement Sunday.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/oregon-sheriff-says-refuge-occupiers-trying-to-overthrow-government/ar-AAgjul1?li=BBnbfcL

Tonight, ABC News had a short statement from a local pastor, who was greatly offended by "outsiders" trying to stir up trouble.


Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Jan 3, 2016 - 09:15pm PT
The Hammonds slaughtered a herd of either deer or elk, killed at least 7 and injured more according to a witness.

Facts don't bother the Patridiots...
WBraun

climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 09:26pm PT
know it all stuportopo do nothing armed finger wagers hard at work wasting their time again ......
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 4, 2016 - 05:17am PT
Ah the good old days. Harken back to when the tobacco industry had completely unfettered access to the American (and World) population without the nuisance interference of the government.

Holy Crap. I seriously hope this was meant for sarcasm......

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Make no mistake, the Bundy crowd are straight up stoopid, but the message and the realities of the Hammond case are 100% legit.

A legal system that allows a US Attorney (who, for the record has long since been fired for inappropriate sexual advances and threatening text messages) to try ranchers in Oregon under some terrorist act as yet another attempt to manage out one of the founding ranches in the area, is broken and needs fixing.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 4, 2016 - 06:21am PT
The Hammonds slaughtered a herd of either deer or elk, killed at least 7 and injured more according to a witness.


Exactly how dependable is an eye witness that can't discern whether the Hammonds killed Elk or Deer?

They also said David Korresh was a pederast once people started asking questions about why the government was encircling some religious nutbags in Texas.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 4, 2016 - 06:49am PT
but the message and the realities of the Hammond case are 100% legit.

I'm sorry, but just because they lease some federal land doesn't mean they get to run it like they own it.

As someone said upstream, if you don't want to deal with federal land regulations, don't make your living off of federal land.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jan 4, 2016 - 06:49am PT
the simple reason they have not gotten the same treatment as the Muslims is that they are a bunch of chincen sh#t wimps and with the exception of oklahoma have never actually done anything significant. The muslims on the otherhand are exceptionaly brazen and effective. If these boneheads ever do pull off something reasonably big and efective the feds will take the gloves off. It seems like for now the feds are trying to keep this low key and small.
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 4, 2016 - 06:53am PT
"The way the story reads it was a bit more then just setting fire to 140 acres. There was a burning ban at the time because of the dangers of the drought."

That never stopped the forest circus. Do we see any of them in jail?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 4, 2016 - 07:07am PT

I'm sorry, but just because they lease some federal land doesn't mean they get to run it like they own it.

As someone said upstream, if you don't want to deal with federal land regulations, don't make your living off of federal land

If you educate yourself on the history of the Hammond Ranch, you will discover that the feds have basically coerced or simply bought out all the surrounding property and have been butt-hurt over the fact that the Hammonds (one of the original settlers of the area) didn't sell out and have been putting the squeeze on these people for decades.

When you dig into the history of some of these cases the tactics and systematic harassment gets lost in the cacophony of the final "act". No different than many other things, it allows .gov to pit citizens against each other while they pull the puppet strings and continue their march. With a couple of you on here goose stepping in the front.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 07:21am PT
Sort of like the last Nevada BLM insurrection:

According to records obtained by Reveal, two ranching families at the center of the Battle Mountain protests received $2.2 million from a federal drought disaster relief program.

Nevada ranchers collect drought subsidies while denying the drought

All these folks are all suckling at the federal teat and simply want to do so with no oversight or restrictions.

P.S. And if management of BLM lands were going to be turned over to the 'locals', those locals by all rights would be the tribes who were pushed off of many of them despite treaties.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 07:23am PT
Escopeta posted

If you educate yourself on the history of the Hammond Ranch, you will discover that the feds have basically coerced or simply bought out all the surrounding property and have been butt-hurt over the fact that the Hammonds (one of the original settlers of the area) didn't sell out and have been putting the squeeze on these people for decades.

When you dig into the history of some of these cases the tactics and systematic harassment gets lost in the cacophony of the final "act". No different than many other things, it allows .gov to pit citizens against each other while they pull the puppet strings and continue their march. With a couple of you on here goose stepping in the front.

How come when the government exploits and assaults people of color (i.e. Ferguson) the resulting protests are dismissed as riotous, ineffective and misplaced but when the government allegedly bullies white people anyone criticizing the resulting armed assault on a government building isn't educated enough and is "goose stepping?"
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jan 4, 2016 - 07:37am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

I knew it. "God" told him to do it
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 07:46am PT
... the history of some of these cases the tactics and systematic harassment gets lost ...



So where is MIA list?
franky

Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
Jan 4, 2016 - 07:52am PT
The federal government often manages land in such a way that isn't favorable for short term ranching interests.

This does not mean the government is anti-ranching. It results from the government having other priorities like the long term sustainability of the landscape, tourism, wildlife management, etc.

Federal land acquisition in the rural west relies on willing sellers. I'm sure it is heartbreaking to sell a ranch, but the reality is that many ranches sold to the federal government are not profitable as cattle ranches, and only survived as long as they did because of federal subsidy.

To me, the people barricaded in the headquarters represent the delusional few who think the best way to manage arid western land is to extract everything of value as quickly as possible. We should be thankful that federal land ownership prevents western landscapes from suffering at their hands.

We should simultaneously encourage constructive partnerships aimed at sustainable land uses specific to the region in question.


Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 4, 2016 - 07:53am PT
How come when the government exploits and assaults people of color (i.e. Ferguson) the resulting protests are dismissed as riotous, ineffective and misplaced but when the government allegedly bullies white people anyone criticizing the resulting armed assault on a government building isn't educated enough and is "goose stepping?"

Forgive me, the Ferguson Riots occurred before such time as I graced the pages of SuperTopo with the gift of my opinion. But I would have opined that while the civil disobedience methods are quite different, the underlying claims of both have significant merit.

While I enjoy a good hijack more than the next fellow, and having grown up in the bosom of good 'ole Ferguson Missouri, I relish any opportunity for discourse regarding Ferguson and the state of law enforcement in 'Murica. I would prefer to stay on topic as the full scope of the Hammond case is enlightening.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 07:56am PT
Apparently it has taken the govt 45 years to finally get the figure four leg lock on the Hammonds.


The Hammonds hold grazing rights on Bureau of Land Management (BLM) land and own private grazing acres intermingled with BLM land in the Steens Mountains. For 45 years, the Hammonds have used their BLM grazing rights and private property to run a successful operation. But now, their operation is being threatened not only by criminal and civil charges brought by the federal government, but with the loss of their grazing permits, as well. The BLM has refused to renew their grazing permits for two years running.

...

The fire later spread to approximately 139 acres of public land, land that happened to be one of Hammond’s grazing allotments. The Hammonds presented evidence that the spread onto public land was not intentional. However, back in 1999, a similar scenario had occurred (a prescribed burn on their land spread to public land), and the Hammonds had been warned that they would face serious consequences should it happen again


From a sympathetic publication



http://www.tsln.com/news/17302049-113/story.html
franky

Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:06am PT
zBrown, that article is actually pretty well written. The one thing that shows it's relatively minor bias is that they simply state the BLM refused to renew the grazing permit.

It seems likely that the BLM likely had a good reason to do that. The article makes it seem arbitrary.

The case of the Hammond family is actually interesting and important. The rest of it is pathetic.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:08am PT
While I tend to agree our federal government is perhaps one of the worst band of murderous criminals in the world this particular situation in Oregon seems to have no merit for changing any of that.

First off, the father and son are willingly heading to prison. I'm not sure what these other guys "holding the refuge" are holding out for...


nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:09am PT
I knew it. "God" told him to do it

White Christian Terrorists

Where is the outrage?



wait.. wait...

















BENGHAZI!!!!111169
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:25am PT
More

Brief History on the Area:

The Harney Basin (were the Hammond ranch is established) was first settled in the 1870’s. In 1908 President Theodor Roosevelt creates an “Indian reservation” around the Malheur, Mud & Harney Lakes despite the absence of Indians. The reservation later turns became the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.

1964 – The Hammond family purchases roughly 6000 acres of property grazing and water rights to the public land area. By 1970 the US Department of Fish and Wildlife Service begins to pressure local ranchers in Harney Basin to sell their property, the Hammonds refused.

1970’s nearly all the ranches adjacent to the Blitzen Valley were purchased by the US Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) and added to the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. Government expand the refuge to cover over 187,000 acres, stretching over 45 miles long and 37 miles wide. Hammond Ranch is now surrounded by the refuge.

FWS and BLM continue to pressure ranchers to sell their property by stating “grazing was detrimental to wildlife.” They start revoking ranch permits, water rights and grazing rights. Fees for grazing and irrigation skyrocket.

I suppose if the govt truly wanted to act with authority and a heavy hand:

em·i·nent do·main
dirtbag

climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:27am PT
Dmt, it's severe but the law states 5 years and to impose less amounts to a judge making up the law. I think the reversal was entirely appropriate. As stated up thread, the merits of mandatory minimums are certainly debatable, but a judge needs to interpret the law correctly, and he/she blew it.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:30am PT
So your beef is with the jury, correct?
Norton

Social climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:30am PT

the ranchers set not one but two different fires of public land

they knew the land did not belong to them, they knew they were breaking the law

there is a federal minimum time of 4 years for doing what they did

they have not yet served the full four years and are therefore going back until they do

I don't understand how any of their behavior can be defended?
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:31am PT
Supreme Court refused the case once. I suppose they could try the "cruel & unusual" punishment tack.

Does the 1996 law mention guns?


11,687 signers so far

http://savethehammonds.com/



dirtbag

climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:33am PT
Actually Crankster, it's with the legislature. If the judge found it was cruel and unusual punishment, that would be one thing. But no one, appellate court concluded, found that.

I'm not sure five years is right, but a sentience of only one month for an arson used to cover up poaching, after receiving a warning previously, followed by a second arson in 2006 that could have killed several firefighters, was waaaaaaaay too light.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:33am PT
Dmt, it's severe but the law states 5 years and to impose less amounts to a judge making up the law. I think the reversal was entirely appropriate. As stated up thread, the merits of mandatory minimums are certainly debatable, but a judge needs to interpret the law correctly, and he/she blew it.

You argument builds on a premise that it was appropriate to try them under an Anti_Terrorist Act in the first place. So while you are technically correct in that the 5 year minimum is as the law states, it discounts the fact that the US Atty office should have never been allowed to try them under such charges. So the entire foundation of the case is nothing more than further evidence that when Big Daddy .Gov wants your sh#t, he's gonna get it.

Can I say sh#t here? I think I saw it somewhere else?
dirtbag

climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:34am PT
Do you know why they were sentenced under that act?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:35am PT
Again, it - 1,778,560 acres - was all Paiute Reservation by the Treaty of 1872 which was signed after a relentless genocidal campaign by the Army. But the treaty was [deliberately] never ratified by Congress and in 1876 President Grant opened the area to settlers and replaced a sympathetic indian agent with one of the commanders of the Army's genocidal campaign.

Chief Egan of the Paiutes at the time:

"Did the government tell you to come here and drive us off this reservation? Did the Big Father say, go and kill us all off, so you can have our land? Did he tell you to pull our children's ears off, and put handcuffs on them, and carry a pistol to shoot us with? We want to know how the government came by this land. Is the government mightier than our Spirit-Father, or is he our Spirit-Father? Oh, what have we done that he is to take all from us that he has given us? His white children have come and taken all our mountains, and all our valleys, and all our rivers; and now, because he has given us this little place without our asking him for it, he sends you here to tell us to go away. Do you see that high mountain away off there? There is nothing but rocks there. Is that where the Big Father wants me to go? If you scattered your seed and it should fall there, it would not grow, for it is all rocks there."

The legal case in modern times dragged on for 35 years. In 1969, after enormous legal fees were subtracted from the total settlement, 850 Paiute people received as little as $741 each for the loss of their land. This was because the price of the land was set at 1890 prices, approximately .28 to .45 cents per acre.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:36am PT
I also sympathize with them, up til the arson and intimidation. If you haven't had a farm or
ranch in yer family for generations then you might not understand the love for the land.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:41am PT
Dingus posted
4-years in the pen for starting a controlled burn, with the sentence lengthened by some federal judge, after they'd already served their original sentence?

That does seem like bullshit to me. This does seem a case of justice-amok.

Seizing federal property isn't right. But at least as I understand it, the ranchers themselves have been railroaded.

Anyone on the Taco pretending to know if this was a just sentence or not is full of crap. We know very few of the specifics and we are all relying on reporting which is often wrong and contradictory.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:42am PT
Do you know why they were sentenced under that act?

I don't know if its for similar reasons as the Defense Authorization Act but I know in those instances if you're suspected of terrorism all rights are suspended. Suspected not convicted. No attorney, no trial, no bond not even a phone call.

So the fact that a cowboy is convicted of terrorism for burning a pasture ought to terrify everyone. It does me at least.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:45am PT
In case you haven't been paying attention, prosecutors have pretty much unlimited discretion in whether, when or how to bring charges. Once you get into the AEDPA maze it's almost imposszible to get back out.
-Franz Kafka


The AEDPA had a tremendous impact on the law of habeas corpus in the United States. One provision of the AEDPA limits the power of federal judges to grant relief[3] unless the state court's adjudication of the claim resulted in a decision that was

contrary to, or involved an unreasonable application of clearly established federal law as determined by the Supreme Court of the United States; or
based on an unreasonable determination of the facts in light of the evidence presented in the state court proceeding.
dirtbag

climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:49am PT
I don't know if its for similar reasons as the Defense Authorization Act but I know in those instances if you're suspected of terrorism all rights are suspended. Suspected not convicted. No attorney, no trial, no bond not even a phone call.

So the fact that a cowboy is convicted of terrorism for burning a pasture ought to terrify everyone. It does me at least.


Oh come on. They had attorneys, they had phone calls, they even had appellate review. Your suggestions otherwise amount to pure speculative tin foil hat nonsense.

And you do know that there was more to the story than simple pasture burning. Quit cherry picking facts.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:50am PT
Dingus posted
Cool. I don't pretend to know the facts. I'm not going to assume I do. So I won't take your or Norton's or anyone else's words as fact, either. :D

But I still sympathize with those ranchers and think that sentence is excessive.

I didn't mean it as a personal attack, just pointing out that we all tend to jump to conclusions on these issues and quickly line up rooting for one side or the other. I think we all can sympathize with holding on to a family farm but it's also not cool to be setting federal land on fire repeatedly. And, yes, I very much was including myself in that statement. Anyone who hasn't been following this closely for years is basically making sh#t up.

dirt posted
Oh come on. They had attorneys, they had phone calls, they even had appellate review. Your suggestions otherwise amount to pure speculative tin foil hat nonsense.

It's still quite possible they got railroaded. Government agents will happily use whatever statutes they can. It's one of the reasons we owe it to ourselves to take the legislation we pass that can be used to curtail civil rights very seriously.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:55am PT
We the people should really wake up to the facts regarding how the feds are defining "terrorism" and then using such a definition to strip people of rights without due process of law or by trying people according to "laws" that really have no reasonable application to them.

The academic community sweepingly recognizes that rigorously defining "terrorism" is an intractable project, as the term is so emotively-laden that legal objectivity is impossible to achieve. Thus, in the wake of 9-11, our government has played on the emotive elements of possible definitions to arrive at (according to the FBI) one that is so sweeping and generalized that even intentionally speeding (by any amount) as an act of civil disobedience can be cast as an act of "terrorism."

I have very limited sympathy with the father/son ranchers (limited to an acknowledgement of their love of the land and their lifestyle). But trying them as terrorists seems to me FAR beyond the pale, and that seems to me to be the fundamental overreach on the part of the feds. That said, it's hard to discover the whole story in this case.

My biggest concern is the fact that they were tried in the context of terrorism laws, because I have been afraid of misapplications of the federal "terrorism" definition for many years.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:01am PT
Don't care about the dole. I do care that they set a blaze that directly threatened wildland firefighters who were already fighting an active fire, by setting blaze below their camp, and incurred millions in taxpayer costs to deal with their rash actions.

I have good friends that are wildland firefighters, smoke jumpers, etc. They've had several of their comrades killed in the line of duty, in the last few years.

I agree the sentence is excessive. But as I said before, there are remedies: clemency, pardon, or legislative process. Terrorism is not a remedy.

Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:05am PT
"Do you know why they were sentenced under that act?"

Because the statute of limitations for arson in Oregon is 3 years. Federal statute is 5 years. They couldn't be charged with Arson under state or federal law.

When the law doesn't allow something, find another law - that is how our overlords work in America today.

Oh, and the law doesn't apply to them...

"In August 1994 the BLM & FWS illegally began building a fence around the Hammonds water source. Owning the water rights and knowing that their cattle relied on that water source daily the Hammonds tried to stop the building of the fence. The BLM & FWS called the Harney County Sheriff department and had Dwight Hammond (Father) arrested and charged with “disturbing and interfering with” federal officials or federal contractors (two counts, each a felony). He spent one night in the Deschutes County Jail in Bend, and a second night behind bars in Portland before he was hauled before a federal magistrate and released without bail. A hearing on the charges was postponed and the federal judge never set another date."

Interfering with water rights used to be a hanging offense.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:07am PT
Dingus posted
I'm not lining up. I'm not rooting for my team. I just don't like the vilification of the ranchers though. That whole 'they took Federal dole' angle is what prompted me to post... so f*#king what they took dole???

It's a hypocrisy issue. Liberals decry those they see as vilifying "takers" but are happy to do so themselves. It's a complete assumption to project that onto this situation. We're all victims of media-centric political worldviews.
kief

Trad climber
east side
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:08am PT
The expansive definition of "terrorism" advanced by some on here would have applied to the civil rights protesters who closed the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma, Alabama in 1965. It would have applied to the folks who refused to leave the offices of the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the Pentagon in 1967. It would have applied to the students who occupied Hamilton Hall at Columbia University in 1968.

I'm not buying it.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:13am PT
Maybe now we can elect some legislators who aren't cowards.

That whole post was spot-on, DMT!
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:13am PT
Dingus posted

Hypocrisy is a crime now?

I'm pretty sure we were talking about the mocking of them taking the dole...
dirtbag

climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:14am PT
Thanks Dave, but my point is that none of us know why they were sentenced under that terrorism act. Mostly, we are speculating.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:14am PT
I for one don't think ranchers are evil.

Interesting how I attach my own bias to spin the info they way I want it to go. I for one believe that Ranching, particularly burger ranching, is an evil, arcane holdout of Manifest Destiny arrogance and no less a crime against the environment than Poaching and Arson (the crimes in question). Five years (they were credited time served) is light.

I sympathize with the Paiute and the wildlife.

I also believe that Terrorism was the premise used by the Feds to eradicate the Paiute and any other troublesome brown people and that none of the ranchers were complaining about Gov overreach when they bought their acreage.

And the Press? Liars and Sodomites every one. NTTAWWT.



Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:18am PT
True, dirtbag. It's a dick move by the feds. Can't deny that.
dirtbag

climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:20am PT
I'm not so sure about that either. I think serving only one month would have been far too light.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:20am PT
Thanks Dave, but my point is that none of us know why the were sentenced under that terrorism act. Mostly, we are speculating.

Can we agree that the Hammonds were not running an ISIS safe house or secretly funding the Assad regime abroad? If so, do we need to know why they decided to try them under a terrorist statute to not like it?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:21am PT
But I still sympathize with those ranchers and think that sentence is excessive.

My biggest concern is the fact that they were tried in the context of terrorism laws, because I have been afraid of misapplications of the federal "terrorism" definition for many years.

The Hammonds can thank Clive Bundy & Co. for the Feds now taking a hard line on this sort of thing...
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:23am PT
Yup. Poaching.... Only evidence of which came from this "witness"...

"Federal attorneys, Frank Papagni, hunted down a witness that was not mentally capable to be a credible witness. Dusty Hammond (grandson and nephew) testified that Steven told him to start a fire. He was 13 at the time and 24 when he testified (11 years later). At 24 Dusty had been suffering with mental problems for many years. He had estranged his family including his mother. Judge Hogan noted that Dusty’s memories as a 13-year-old boy were not clear or credible. He allowed the prosecution to continually use Dusty’s testimony anyway. When speaking to the Hammonds about this testimony, they understood that Dusty was manipulated and expressed nothing but love for their troubled grandson."
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:24am PT
The Hammonds can thank Clive Bundy & Co.

Yeah, and the irony there is that the Hammonds just can't get 'em to stop "helping" even now. Sigh
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:24am PT
They were sentenced under the 1996 act because that act set the minimum sentence for arson on federal land, regardless of whether you are a terrorist or not.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:24am PT
The Hammonds can thank Clive Bundy & Co. for the Feds now taking a hard line on this sort of thing...

OMG, the new version of blame Canada.
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:31am PT
They used to shoot land grabbing cattle barons in Harney County.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_French
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:35am PT
They could have been tried and sentenced under

1666. Destruction Of Government Property -- 18 U.S.C. § 1361

The penalties for violations of this section are tied to the extent of the property damage. As amended on September 13, 1994, if the damage exceeds $100, the defendant is subject to a fine of up to $250,000, ten years imprisonment, or both. See Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, Pub. L. 103-322, § 330016, 108 Stat. 1796, 2146-47 (1994). When property damage does not exceed $100, the offense is a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of up to $100,000, one year imprisonment, or both. See 18 U.S.C. §§ 3559(a), 3571.
Norton

Social climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:35am PT
They were sentenced under the 1996 act because that act set the minimum sentence for arson on federal land, regardless of whether you are a terrorist or not.

then why are people here saying they are being treated like "terrorists"?
John M

climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:39am PT
then why are people here saying they are being treated like "terrorists"?

leading question?

because of the name of the act…..the federal Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996.



I feel so used.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:50am PT
if the damage exceeds $100

That's an amazingly low bar. You pretty much can't spit on the sidewalk without causing $100 in damage. So, pretty much, you can be charged with a felony and do 10 years in federal pen for bending a blade of grass.

Oh, and if you bent the blade of grass with "intent to make a political or social statement," you're a "terrorist" to boot. Property damage is included in the FBI definition of "terrorism."
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2016 - 10:00am PT
Mb, you got three choices, 1 don't bend Federal grass, 2 petition Congress to change the law, 3 lay siege to somr federal lands. It must suck living in your reality
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 4, 2016 - 10:06am PT
The 1996 also set minimums for passport alteration, forgery, bribery, smuggling, etc. Acts that we don't necessary label an offender as a terrorist.

They gave a catchy name to the entire act so it would get broad support if it was positioned as anti-terrorist.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 4, 2016 - 10:12am PT
It must suck living in your reality

No, really it must suck to live in a "reality" in which you feel the need to turn a discussion into such a comment.

And, really, there are more options than you list.

Furthermore, your number 2 is a non-starter and incredibly naive from an individual perspective! Until people wake up to the evils of the Patriot Act, the massive surveillance-state empowerment that was embedded into this latest federal budget, and what "terrorism" means to the feds, a few people individually "petitioning congress" is useless. The only hope is raising awareness until "enough" people are making it an issue to candidates up for election/reelection that congress quits playing the games it is playing.

Online discussions like this are just one piece of that puzzle.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 10:12am PT
madbolter posted
That's an amazingly low bar. You pretty much can't spit on the sidewalk without causing $100 in damage. So, pretty much, you can be charged with a felony and do 10 years in federal pen for bending a blade of grass.

Madbolter: secret acid-spitting alien
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jan 4, 2016 - 10:21am PT
Madbolter: secret acid-spitting alien

An encephalopod maybe.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 4, 2016 - 10:26am PT
Wow. Just wowwww

Holy intentionally missing the obvious point, Batman.

Yeah, and "we're" going to get "together" against a federal government run amok?

Yeah, right. I guess, just hope that YOU never accidentally run afoul of its ire, because you cannot count on your "fellow citizens" for ANY help. They will apparently just tell you, "Well, you did bend a blade of grass, so do your 10 years, pay your quarter-million fine, and quit complaining!"

**First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
**
dirtbag

climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 10:30am PT
Oh the drama!
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 10:31am PT
I'm actually impressed. I assumed that all the Repubs would dodge the sh#t out of this.

Ted Cruz tells Oregon’s militant protesters to “stand down peaceably”
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 10:38am PT
madbolter posted
**First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Who will save Madbolter from the ill chasm of Godwin's Law?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 4, 2016 - 10:57am PT
How come when the government exploits and assaults people of color (i.e. Ferguson)

Remind me, again, the nature of the exploitation in Ferguson. All I saw was a bunch of people on ST who decided they knew the "facts" before any real determination of those facts. Last I saw, the objective evidence points to the correctness of the policemen's story, not that of their critics.

In a way, this case is the inverse of Ferguson. All the objective evidence shows the government to be correct, and the Bundyites to be wrong. Nonetheless, many posters, most of whom share my skepticism and mistrust of the federal government, use this rather clear example of misdeeds by an anti-government faction to bring alleged governmental misdeeds into the fore of the discussion.

What I think this really shows is the difficulty of removing our prejudices from our observations.

On a slightly different tangent, whoever said the beef in the Hammond case is with the jury has a point. The jury has the right to believe or disbelieve witnesses. The jundge, and any appellate court, must respect the jury's (or the trial judge's if there is no jury) determination of facts unless that determinatnion is clearly erroneous. The clearly erroneous standard is a rather high one. Merely because the reviewer would have found the facts differently isn't enough, particularly when it comes to deciding whose testimony gets what weight. Unless the factual finding is rather blatantly incorrect (e.g., if the jury decided that the thief stole $1,000.00 from person A, and $1,000.00 from person B, for a total of $3,000.00 from A and B), the jury's findings bind the reviewing courts.

On the other hand, a judge's rulings on the law are entitled to no particular wieght on appeal. The reviewing court examines issues of law de novo. When the trial judge in the Hammond case found that the minimum penalties "shocked the conscience," he had no discretion to sentence less unless he found the act under which they were sentenced unconstitutional.

Many statutes in Title 18 (the federal criminal code) specify only maximum sentences (e.g., shall be fined not more than $500,000.00, or sentenced to imprisonment of not more than five years, or both). Until about 2005, those statutes were subject to mandatory sentencing guidelines (talk about an oxymoron) that did not allow deviation. Around then, the SCOTUS ruled the mandatory guidelines unconstitutional, because they deprived the courts of discretion where congress did not.

In contrast, congress, not the guidelines, deprived the trial court of the discretion he exercised. If the Hammonds wanted to appeal, they would need to have challenged the constitutionality of that act at the trial level (in order to preserve the issue on appeal), as well as at the Ninth Circuit. Only then would the issue be ripe for decision by the SCOTUS. It sounds like they decided the hassle wasn't worth it.

To make my rather opaque comment a bit clearer, the judge who saw the trial and witnesses thought the sentence was unjust. All of us who review that belief, including the Ninth Circuit, have no reason to question that determination. Because the defendants chose not to pursue a constitutional challenge to the law, however, the trial judge's determinatnion of the justice of the sentence is irrelevant. The lighter sentence he imposed my be more just, but it is illegal.

John
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jan 4, 2016 - 11:00am PT
The heavily armed Vanilla Isis is occupying a federal building, but they don't know what they want.

representative of the typical angry white male?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 4, 2016 - 11:18am PT
DMT, the two ranchers (hereafter the "ranchers") do not support the occupiers. The ranchers may well have been railroaded. That certainly seems the view of the trial judge who heard all the evidence that we didn't. The ranchers just want this over with.

I feel like I understand their position, because of my own experience as a federal defendant who many felt was unjustly (and possibly illegally) sentenced. The cost in time, money and emotions wasn't worth the fight to me. As a result of accepting the court's actions (which I personally felt were reasonable in the circumstances) and serving my time, I'm now emotionally free. I think that's all the ranchers want now.

Instead the occupiers have managed to put the ranchers front and center - just where they don't want to be. The occupiers constitute a very different situation, to me, from that of the ranchers. I simply see no justification for the occupiers' actions. I note, however, that they're getting exactly what they seek from the mainstream media. The broadcast news, the daily newspapers, even The Guardian have the occupiers and their demands and positions as front page news. If they left them alone, starved for news coverage, they'd be gone in no time.

John
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 4, 2016 - 11:21am PT
Armed people have taken over a government building. Does anyone really think that these guys aren't headed for prison? If I and 10 other guys armed ourselves and took over the local library, you can bet your ass that the SWAT team would be on the way. And they would be right.

I'll be happy to see these "patriots" who are upset about sucking off of the government tit get what they have coming. Grazing fees are a joke. From what I discovered, the Hammond family owns 10,000 acres and has another 20,000 acres of grazing leases on federal land.

Wiki actually has a page about grazing fees. Here is what they say:

In the United States, grazing fees are generally charged per AUM (animal unit month). (Some additional fee or fees may be charged in various jurisdictions, e.g. per application.) On US federal grazing land, the grazing fee for 2012 (as for 2011) is $1.35 per AUM.[3] Over several decades, the fees charged on US federal rangelands have generally been substantially lower than rates charged on private lands in the US.[4] In 2006, the grazing fee on Oregon state lands was $5.60 per AUM.[5]

So the state of Oregon charges $5.60. The federal government charges $1.35. I would call that a pretty damn good deal. It is practically free. You can feed a cow on federal land for only $16.20 a year.

I grew up on a pecan farm, with 350 trees. My dad used to lease the pasture around the trees to a cattle rancher. He paid the going rate. He only ran cattle on it for a few years. My dad planted much of it with vetch, which has nitrogen fixing bacterial growths on the roots. It is good for the soil, which was rich and black good bottomland.

The rancher always had his cattle out by pecan harvest season, in the fall.

The rancher didn't own the land. He leased it. I need to ask my Dad how much he received, but I can nigh promise you that he paid more than $1.35 bucks per cow per month. That is almost free.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 4, 2016 - 11:31am PT
DMT, the two ranchers (hereafter the "ranchers") do not support the occupiers.

This is true, and an important point. The Hammonds and their attorney want nothing to do with these guys. The Bundy sons are acting like a branch of the military. Fat bastards with guns and no job drive up there when they hear the call.

I do think that 5 years for burning 130 acres is excessive. If it was rangeland, I'm surprised that they even cared. That land needs to be burned every 5 to 10 years or so anyway.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 11:35am PT
John posted:
Remind me, again, the nature of the exploitation in Ferguson. All I saw was a bunch of people on ST who decided they knew the "facts" before any real determination of those facts. Last I saw, the objective evidence points to the correctness of the policemen's story, not that of their critics.

John, it's a little frustrating that you would be so dismissive considering the volume of reporting about this and the US Department of Justice Report on the extensive systemic abuse. The predominantly white city council was using the predominantly black citizenry as a cash register to keep taxes low through a regime of aggressive policing and fining (and then fining/jailing for inability to pay the fines). Is the WSJ not covering these kinds of topics?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 4, 2016 - 11:38am PT

The rancher didn't own the land. He leased it. I need to ask my Dad how much he received, but I can nigh promise you that he paid more than $1.35 bucks per cow per month. That is almost free.

For the record, comparing the relative fertility of a pecan orchard with Harney Basin is, shall we say, inappropriate.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jan 4, 2016 - 11:38am PT
http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/those-jamokes-in-oregon-arent-terrorists-theyre-jamoke-1750918911

The American political lexicon has an appropriate word for the armed men conspicuously loitering in part of Oregon’s Malheur National Wildlife Refuge instead of going home. It is not terrorist or militia or occupation or revolution or movement or front or army or resistance. The word is jamoke. “Get a load of these sad jamokes!” is the thing you say about them.

Maybe when they are done annexing this remote administrative office’s supply of free park maps and permit application forms, they will liberate rural Oregon’s port-a-johns next. Some of the port-a-johns are heavily fortified with locking doors and hand sanitizer pumps. Surely this will call for siege weaponry.

Imagine the grade of sad, stunted halfwit who decks himself out in paramilitary regalia and lethal weaponry to stage a sit-in at what is for all intents and purposes a remote wildlife park’s visitor’s center. Okay, men, when I kick in the door, you three move on the 74-year-old v0lunteer who shows the birdwatching slideshow to elementary-school field trip groups; if she makes a move, be ready to take her down with force. The rest of us will establish a defensive position behind the cardboard beaver. If bigger goobers than these exist on our planet, you identify them by the bruises from where they poked themselves in the eye while trying to pick their noses.








BREAKING: White Men Enter Building In Rural Oregon, Act Like They Run The Place. Here is a question: At which rural Oregon building isn’t that true? That sh#t happens at 9:00 in the morning literally every day at literally every building in rural and suburban America. It is called the start of the workday. Maybe these sh#t-for-brains jamokes can push a broom around while they’re there, or take the recycling to the curb. Make yourselves useful, clowns!

A tragicomic thing happens, though, when a handful of slow-witted white dorks in their best Sunday camo decide to take their guns and their entitled, useless, cosmically unserious day-to-day dull-eyed skulking to a minor government shack and pretend it’s some sort of insurrection against tyranny. Liberal internet users’ latent frustration at the disproportionality and unfairness of the way American law enforcement and media treat different kinds of people tips over into a mild derangement that has us likening these sh#t-for-brains dinguses to friggin’ ISIS. This is understandable! We’re just about a week from an Ohio grand jury deciding that summary execution is a fair consequence for 12-year-old kids who play with toys outdoors; by that standard, the entire state of Oregon should be a radioactive desert right now. This seems a fair thing to point out.

Still, hang on. First, watch this nimrod tearfully explain to his family that he had to miss Christmas and New Year’s Eve because his solemn duty to the Constitution required him to go to a wildlife park’s empty administrative building and hang out there for a while in the desperate hope that someone outside his brotherhood of blinkered morons would decide this makes him Andrew Pickens:
All together now: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Hey Jon, pick up some toilet paper and fruit roll-ups on the way home, wouldja?

Here is the thing. These men are not frightening. They are jamokes. They are exactly jamokes. Their guns, on the other hand, are very frightening—for precisely and entirely the same reason and to absolutely the same degree that those same guns would be frightening in the hands of toddlers. Not because the people holding those guns are serious, but because the people holding those guns are not serious.

This, my good buddies, is the entire American pro-gun argument made (embarrassing, oh my God so f*#king embarrassing) flesh. A big scary gun lends a degree of real power even to the variety of sad, corny-ass loser who invades and occupies what is essentially a fancy birdhouse in the name of ending tyranny. That is the whole reason to have a big scary gun. Not as a safeguard against home invaders or the totalitarian state, but as a safeguard against a clear-eyed reckoning with plain reality. A gun is—or at least these jamokes hope it is—a Get Out Of Getting Laughed At Free card. When you call these horse’s asses “terrorists,” you are not only dignifying their ridiculous, impotent actions, you are doing them the biggest favor for which they can hope.

Here is what this is: it’s the moment the gun-humping right pantsed itself for all the world to see. Look at these sad cowards! The smallness of their acting-out; the transparency of their bullshit; the fraudulence of their anti-authoritarian pose; the convenience of the fact that their active search for a tyranny against which to rebel—it wasn’t coming to take their guns away, you see—led them to an unoccupied building of zero value in the middle of nowhere, where the most aggressive response they’ll muster from the government they so eagerly pretend to fear is an irritated phone call from a Bureau of Land Management flack. There’s no reason to join them in the collective fantasy that they represent a threat to anything other than the urine-free status of this random building’s bathroom sink.

Some morons decided to take a vacation from reality. They brought their guns along. The rest of the world actually does not have to join them! Eventually they will get bored of waiting for tyranny to come certify their jagoff fantasy. Maybe they will leave a bag of flaming crap on tyranny’s doorstep on their way back home.

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 4, 2016 - 11:38am PT
Point is there is no point here... The ranchers reported to prison and didn't want to contest it apparently.

What bothers me most is the people who want the gov't to kill/maim/mutilate the 'protesters' who are holed up in some snowy unoccupied building without a cause. They might be idiots but that's no reason to physically harm them and risk kicking off more conflict between gov't and an angry misinformed populace.

There is no need for violence here on either side and hopefully nothing will happen.

Send 'em tickets for trespassing later. Defuse the whole situation.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 4, 2016 - 11:39am PT
Wiki has a great page describing the events of the Nevada standoff with the Bundy family.

It is good reading. If you are interested in the basic facts behind the event, you should read it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff

The summary tells of the reason that the BLM physically stepped in to remove his cattle. It is much simpler than many make it out to be:

The ongoing dispute started in 1993, when, in protest against changes to grazing rules,[2] Bundy declined to renew his permit for cattle grazing on BLM-administered lands near Bunkerville, Nevada.[3] According to the BLM, Bundy continued to graze his cattle on public lands without a permit.[4] In 1998, Bundy was prohibited by the United States District Court for the District of Nevada from grazing his cattle on an area of land later called the Bunkerville Allotment.[3] In July 2013, the BLM complaint was supplemented when federal judge Lloyd D. George ordered that Bundy refrain from trespassing on federally administered land in the Gold Butte area of Clark County.[5]

You might find Bundy's worldview interesting. He, like many of these guys, believe in the Sovereign Citizen world view:

According to The Guardian, Bundy told his supporters that "We definitely don't recognize [the BLM director's] jurisdiction or authority, his arresting power or policing power in any way," and in interviews he used the language of the sovereign citizen movement, thereby gaining the support of members of the Oath Keepers, the White Mountain Militia and the Praetorian Guard militias.[33] Followers of the sovereign citizen movement generally believe that the U.S. government is illegitimate.[34] The movement is considered by the FBI as the nation’s top domestic terrorism threat.[35][36]

J. J. MacNab, who writes for Forbes about anti-government extremism, has described Bundy’s views as inspired by the sovereign citizen movement, whose adherents believe that the county sheriff is the most powerful law-enforcement officer in the country, with authority superior to that of any federal agent, local law-enforcement agency or any other elected official.[37] On April 12, 2014, Bundy "ordered" Clark County Sheriff Doug Gillespie to confront the federal agents, disarm them and deliver their arms to Bundy within an hour of his demand. He later expressed disappointment that Gillespie did not comply, and he said that the demand had applied to all sheriffs in the country.[37][38]

The Southern Poverty Law Center has described Bundy's views as closely aligned with those of the Posse Comitatus organization, and it has also asserted that such self-described "patriot" groups were focused on secession, nullification, state sovereignty and the principles of the Tenther movement.[39][40]



Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jan 4, 2016 - 11:47am PT
Well I don't have party lines.

maybe you don't have party lines, and I don't include you in this, but a great number of ST posters have panty lines, all bunched up and affecting their collective brain cells.

BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 4, 2016 - 11:48am PT
There is no need for violence here on either side and hopefully nothing will happen.

Send 'em tickets for trespassing later. Defuse the whole situation.

I would bet that something like this will indeed happen. Nobody wants to see another Waco, even if the feds are in the right, which the Hammond family has not even contested.

These guys are armed to the teeth, though, and Ammon Bundy said that they were going to use the building for years. At some point they are going to have to leave.

This all reminds me of Tim McVeigh, who took similar beliefs to a horrific end. I live in a suburb of OKC, and my 2 year old son was 9 blocks from his truck bomb. Even at that distance, it blew out all of the windows facing the explosion.

You won't find much sympathy for the militia types in Oklahoma. After the bombing, many militia groups disbanded. Now a newer generation is taking it up again, with weird theories of government that have no basis on reality.

If you don't believe me about Ammon Bundy's claims of what they are going to do with the wildlife refuge office building, just watch what he says:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H264Z2v80vg
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 4, 2016 - 11:54am PT
They're not "armed to the teeth". It's a bunch of unsupported guys with small arms in inhospitable and unfamiliar terrain.

It's not worth risking an ounce of blood on either side IMO.

If there really is evidence that someone may have truly criminal intent (aka the OK bombing) then arrest them later.



zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 11:55am PT

Remind me, again, the nature of the exploitation in Ferguson.

Start with the report of the Justice Department.

Darkness at the break of noon.

The 12 key highlights from the DOJ’s scathing Ferguson report
dirtbag

climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 12:02pm PT
Send 'em tickets for trespassing later. Defuse the whole situation

After seeing how the bundy mess played out two years ago, with the Feds backing down, I doubt the feds have itchy trigger fingers this time around. But when this over, they will get much harsher charges than trespassing, since they are interfering with the functions of federal employees.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 12:18pm PT
Dingus posted
Oregon, Wall Street, Ferguson, South Carolina, etc etc etc protesters trespassed in support of causes not their own. It seems criticism of those occupations falls on the usual party lines.

They were unarmed. I have no problem with unarmed occupation of public spaces even if I disagree with their goals. Show up with weapons and you aren't protesting, you're assaulting. You're literally attacking America. Bust out your "America Under Siege" logos, FOX News!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 4, 2016 - 12:34pm PT
A mob is just as dangerous un-armed as it is armed.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 4, 2016 - 12:42pm PT
Mobs are NOT as dangerous unarmed as they are armed.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 4, 2016 - 12:46pm PT
The DOJ report isn't what caused the demonstrations, civil disobedience and the riots - there were all three - in Ferguson. It was reaction to an inaccurate account of an encounter between policemen and a suspect who disobeyed police orders. A review of posts at the time demonstrate that most posters already made assumptions about whether the police account was truthful and made strong allegations, based on those assumptions, about the guilt or innocence of the officer involved.

The DOJ report nonetheless accounts for the vehemence of the response to the shooting, and also explains why so many people didn't consider the particular facts in that particular shooting as important as the larger history.

I know the usual suspect will accuse me of my usual false equivalence, but I see the same thing happening on this issue. Those supporting the occupiers are using their perceptions of history between the occupiers and their supposed supporters and the government as justification for the trespass/occupation.

I don't hold myself immune from this. I simply don't see any justification in current American history for occupation of anything by anyone who doesn't own it. That's true whether it's Justin Herman Plaza in San Francisco, Alcatraz Island by native Americans, or an abandoned facility in Oregon. The use of extra-governmental force threatens a free society, wherever we use that force.

John
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 4, 2016 - 12:52pm PT
"Mobs are NOT as dangerous unarmed as they are armed."


Sure they are.

A mob's primary weapon is its numbers. That's kind of the whole idea behind mobbing-up.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 4, 2016 - 12:54pm PT
"Mobs are NOT as dangerous unarmed as they are armed."


Sure they are.

A mob's primary weapon is its numbers. That's kind of the whole idea behind mobbing-up.

Oh Lordy, but I hope you can't procreate.

George Washington didn't use his ability to "mob-up" to defeat the British. He shot them.
hashbro

Trad climber
Mental Physics........
Jan 4, 2016 - 12:56pm PT
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/01/04/fbi-takes-lead-on-investigating-armed-takeover-of-federal-building-in-oregon/

What if the Oregon Protesters Were Black or Muslim? Debate Ensues

By KATIE ROGERSJAN. 4, 2016
Photo

An Arizona cattle rancher, LaVoy Finicum, led members of the media through the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge near Burns, Ore. Credit Jim Urquhart/Reuters

The Oregon protest at a federal wildlife refuge has reignited an already intense debate on social media about policing, race and terrorism.

On Saturday, an armed group of antigovernment protesters occupied a remote federal wildlife refuge in Oregon and warned that they would not leave without a fight. The authorities have held back rather than use force.

On social media, that led quickly to questions about a double standard, particularly from liberals and the left, who asked: What if the armed men were Muslim or black? They predicted the authorities would have been more forceful.

Many or all of the protesters appear to be white. It was unclear what religion they are, but least one has made reference to a prominent (and antigovernment) Mormon figure.

Ryan Bundy was one of the protesters occupying the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge near Burns, Ore., on Sunday.Armed Group Vows to Continue Occupation at Oregon RefugeJAN. 3, 2016
Ryan Bundy, part of an armed anti-government group, walks between occupied buildings at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.What We Know About the Standoff in OregonJAN. 3, 2016

Protester Scott Drexler on a bridge next to the Bureau of Land Management's base camp where seized cattle, that belonged to rancher Cliven Bundy, where being held near Bunkerville, Nevada last April.Retro Report: Memories of Waco Siege Continue to Fuel Far-Right GroupsJULY 12, 2015
Randy Weaver supporters at Ruby Ridge in northern Idaho in 1992.Retro Report: An Idaho Family, and Federal Tactics, Under SiegeOCT. 26, 2014
Some wondered why the news media and the authorities were not calling the takeover a form of terrorism. People used the hashtags #YallQaeda, #YeeHawd, and #VanillaISIS to challenge a widely held perception that terrorism applies only to crimes carried about by minorities and non-Christians.


The leader of the armed group in Oregon is Ammon Bundy, the son of Cliven Bundy, a rancher in Nevada who in 2014 engaged in an armed standoff with federal officials, gaining the support of leaders in the conservative movement, then losing it after declaring that black Americans would be better off as slaves.

Still, many conservatives on Twitter criticized the debate, and said it was a step too far to call the men terrorists, and pushed back against memes that perpetuated stereotypes about white people.

Continue reading the main story
Continue reading the main story
Others objected to the criticism of the lack of force used by the authorities by drawing comparisons to past deadly standoffs between the federal authorities and armed groups that harbor antigovernment sentiments.

“Worth recalling lessons of Waco and Ruby Ridge before suggesting FBI should simply go to war with Oregon militiamen,” an observer wrote on Twitter on Sunday.


What We Know About the Standoff in Oregon
In February 1993, a gun battle erupted in Waco, Tex., between federal authorities and members of a religious sect called the Branch Davidians. The fighting resulted in the deaths of four federal agents and half a dozen members of the sect. That was followed by a 51-day standoff and another confrontation that left dozens more people dead. All told, at least 82 Branch Davidians died. A third of those killed were children.

A year earlier, a confrontation in northern Idaho between the authorities and Randall Weaver, a white separatist, led to the fatal shooting of his wife and son. A federal marshal was also killed during the conflict, which came after an 11-day standoff. In 1995, the government awarded $3.1 million to Mr. Weaver.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jan 4, 2016 - 01:04pm PT
If you are the first one to go into a situation armed, you are the aggressor. It is an act of intimidation. When the gubmn't shows up and calls you on it, and you say you are defending yourself, you are an idiot. There are few thngs as pathetic as a group of dumb, armed rednecks pretending to be "patriots".

But this is the price of living in the land of freedom I guess.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 4, 2016 - 01:17pm PT
Excuse me for missing the point of all this discussion. But it just seems absolutely embarrassing that some bubbas can think that pulling out guns will help solve some legal issue with the government of a country which is a huge global dealer in weapons and bombs, banking debt. What an image; what a legacy for a precocious country that is struggling to maintain moral credibility.

I'm actually far more embarrassed about letting the likes of your ilk hand over my liberty and personal freedom to our government than I will ever be of a bunch of retards out in the marsh trying find the thermostat in a federal building in one of the least populated counties in the entire country.
WBraun

climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 01:21pm PT
bubbas can think that pulling out guns will help solve sh!t

They learned it and are imitating their own govt.

The US govt. bullies everyone on the planet now a days with guns, bombs and threats of taking over if you don't toe their line ......
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 01:22pm PT
chaz posted
A mob is just as dangerous un-armed as it is armed.

That's why you don't own a gun, right? Because you're just as dangerous without it.
WBraun

climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 01:23pm PT
So they are no different then The US govt.

You Americans are insane .....
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 4, 2016 - 01:24pm PT
OMFG, these goobers are endless entertainment.

Now they are asking people to donate supplies (specifically "snacks, energy drinks, cold weather socks") by...wait for it...sending them via General Delivery to the Burns Post Office.

Govt Tyranny!! Oh, except the post office, they ain't real feds. Do these idiots really think they're going to be allowed to just take a jaunt into Burns, pick up their care-packages of Slim Jims and Red Bull, and pooter on back down to the Wildlife Refuge?

These Talibanjo fools are better than George Carlin, Richard Pryor, Kinnison, and Chris Rock all rolled into one. I've got tears of laughter rolling down my cheeks looking at their Twitter beg and the replies. It's like the best performance art ever.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 4, 2016 - 01:26pm PT
I simply don't see any justification in current American history for occupation of anything by anyone who doesn't own it. That's true whether it's Justin Herman Plaza in San Francisco, Alcatraz Island by native Americans, or an abandoned facility in Oregon. The use of extra-governmental force threatens a free society, wherever we use that force.

The justification is the creation of attention and publicity over something that is happening, but it not making it onto the airwaves.

This is a well-recognized form of civil disobedience.

BUT, there are required elements to be so:

1. No violence.
2. No arms.
3. allow arrests of protesters (although perhaps not simple "get up and go along")

I've always been impressed by those who protested, but agreeably went into custody, such as the Nun who trespassed at the nuclear facility.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 4, 2016 - 01:29pm PT
When you've lost the Oath Keepers, you might want to reconsider your Vanilla ISIS crusade:

Stewart Rhodes, president and founder of the Oath Keepers, posted a video statement on the ranchers' situation in which he criticized the son of infamous Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy for taking up the cause of Dwight and Stewart Hammond. Rhodes branded those involved with Ammon Bundy's protest as “potheads.”

“The Oath Keepers will not be involved in an armed stand off that’s being manufactured by potheads who want a fight because this is going to be a bad fight, not a righteous moral high ground fight,” Rhodes said in the video, which was posted Thursday.

Poor 'ol Rong must be mighty confused and torn right now. "Oaf Keepers or Burns Brigade, Oaf Keepers or Burns Brigade?"
Norton

Social climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 01:45pm PT
I know the usual suspect will accuse me of my usual false equivalence,


I doubt very much he will, as he agrees with you on this one, John!
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 4, 2016 - 01:48pm PT
Thanks, Norton! I haven't had a chance to respond in our private conversation for reasons that I am too busy to get into, but I hope you have a most wonderful new year.

John
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 02:00pm PT
They ARE their own government, that's the ironic part.

You mean....

Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 4, 2016 - 02:17pm PT
The Yee-Hawdists are in real trouble now. The Audubon Society of Portland has issued a statement condeming their actions at Malheur.

http://audubonportland.org/news/audubon-society-of-portland-statement-on-the-occupation-of-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 4, 2016 - 02:19pm PT
Seeing as Audubon shot more birds than any other person in all of recorded history (despite my attempts to unseat him from that title), does that mean this is an armed threat?

crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jan 4, 2016 - 03:02pm PT
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jan 4, 2016 - 04:24pm PT
So since it's fine to take over Fed lands when you are white,

when do the dirtbags take over Yosemite?

i propose a BMI of less than 28% to enter.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 04:32pm PT
when do the dirtbags take over Yosemite?


Ummmm....
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 04:37pm PT
Fritz posted
The Yee-Hawdists are in real trouble now.

Ok. That's awesome.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2016 - 04:43pm PT
Occupy Degnan's. Demand free beer, reserved parking at C4, strippers and no camping limit.
F

climber
away from the ground
Jan 4, 2016 - 04:46pm PT
Yeah, I think Fritz might have won the whole internet for the day with that one. We might need Burchy to make it official though.
I think " Y'allQaeda " is a close second, in my opinion.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 4, 2016 - 05:14pm PT
I just watched the nightly-report of bastion of liberal thoughts, NBC Nightly News on the subject.

The ranchers checked themselves into prison today.

There are no government roadblocks on the road to the Malheur HQ (I'd have that road blocked to all but official business or emergencies, and that includes blocked to the media.)

The Yee-Hawdists do have at least one female with them. (It is important for them to have some women & children around to hide behind, as demonstrated last year in the Nevada Bundy stand-off;)

There are some home-made signs in Burns telling the Yee-Hawdists to leave.

I strongly suspect the media-folks are not finding their stay in Burns real comfortable. It appears there are 4 ok motels in town, and I remember a few more that don't show up on an internet search.

I just watched the somewhat more conservative Boise NBC local news. They had about a five-minute spot on the Yeh-Hawdist occupation. They were much more sympathetic to the terrorists. In Idaho most of the media has fallen into line with the conservative majority, and needs to be anti-government. Bunch of fuking idiots.

edit: The Boise news did show the local Sheriff, in a news conference, not asking, but telling the Yew-Hawdists to leave.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 4, 2016 - 05:25pm PT
If the feds set up roadblocks, that would probably escalate to violence as the yeeehawdists and outsiders try to evade and confront the roadblocks.

The roadblocks just give them a focalpoint to show how the guv persecutes true patriots.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 05:28pm PT
The Yee-Hawdists...

Is that your coinage? Good one.

Bunch of fuking idiots.

There you go. +1.




PS

I just watched the nightly-report... NBC Nightly News...

Hey how about that Hallie Jackson? what a gem!
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 4, 2016 - 05:29pm PT
It's been on twitter for a few days.

#YeeHawdists

Found this there:

nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 4, 2016 - 05:39pm PT
so maybe this has been covered but how do y'all see this ending? Seems the Feds are going to do everything but make a scene.

Seems like it ends peacefully or guns-a-blazin'. (you can give me a no sh#t sherlock for that observation)

It appears the Feds are not going to push the issue so if guns start firing it starts with the domestic terrorists. Then anything could happen.

Let's say it starts peaceful and ends peaceful. Then what?

Arrest? On what charges?

Don't arrest. We the People of the United States of America are supposed to once again forgive these crimes?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 4, 2016 - 05:40pm PT
In the end, I wonder how much of my tax money was spent to research, prosecute, trial, appeal and re-appeal 2 ranchers over burning about $1000 worth of pasture that the government likes to burn themselves from time to time.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 05:44pm PT
I wouldn't warp your noodle too hard worrying about costs and fees. The Feds are on salary. Now at least, you can't complain they were doing nothing and getting paid.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 05:45pm PT
A top city attorney resigned hours after a federal judge ruled Monday that he intentionally concealed crucial evidence in a trial over a fatal Chicago police shooting and then lied about his reasons for doing so.
-Francesco Vincent "Frank" Serpico


Scott then runs away from Slager, who raises his gun and fires eight times, striking Scott, who was unarmed and whose back was turned to Slager as he fled. Scott died at the scene.
-Not Dred Scott



Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 05:53pm PT
I tend to favor #Talibundy
F

climber
away from the ground
Jan 4, 2016 - 05:55pm PT
^

Hmmm... While appropriate, that one doesn't quite have a foreigny sounding ring to it out loud.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 4, 2016 - 05:57pm PT
There are tons of good ones circulating on twitter:

Ya'llQaeda
Vanilla ISIS
Talibanjo
YeeHawdists
Bozoharam
HicksBala
Infanttada
Rambros
Branch Stupidians
Gravy Seals
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2016 - 06:07pm PT
Some tweets floating about, looks like the Y'allQeada is looking to end this and quietly slither back to AZ

John Sepulvado @JohnLGC

Ryan #Bundy says he does not recognize the @HarneyCoSheriff as the sole "decider" about leaving, but says they will listen to community.

John Sepulvado @JohnLGC

Ryan #Bundy tells @OPB that "This is their county – we can’t be here and force this on them." #bundymilitia #burns cc @HarneyCoSheriff

John Sepulvado @JohnLGC

Again, @OPB is told the Bundy family will leave peacefully if the people of Harney County want them to.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 06:10pm PT

Jan 4, 2016 - 05:39pm PT
so maybe this has been covered but how do y'all see this ending? Seems the Feds are going to do everything but make a scene.

Seems like it ends peacefully or guns-a-blazin'. (you can give me a no sh#t sherlock for that observation)

It appears the Feds are not going to push the issue so if guns start firing it starts with the domestic terrorists. Then anything could happen.

Let's say it starts peaceful and ends peaceful. Then what?

Arrest? On what charges?

Don't arrest. We the People of the United States of America are supposed to once again forgive these crimes

Chill. There aren't any Feds out there. The #Talibundy can declare victory against the oppressive gummint and then go home and take out more Federal small business loans.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/01/ammon-bundy-oregon-protest-sba-loan

My guess is they will do that when the press gets cold and goes home.
stunewberry

Trad climber
Spokane, WA
Jan 4, 2016 - 06:23pm PT
http://cheezburger.com/707589/the-internet-is-here-to-help-you-make-sense-of-the-oregon-standoff-with-humorous-hashtags?ref=mosaicthumb3
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 06:52pm PT
I discussion of the Captain Moroni connection is here (Oregon Public Radio - Audio)

http://www.npr.org/2016/01/04/461944989/mormon-faith-serves-as-powerful-symbol-for-oregon-protesters?utm_campaign=storyshare&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Moroni
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 4, 2016 - 06:59pm PT
I have been thinking about the Yeh-Hawdist occupation of the HQ for Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Oregon, and realized that many folks don't relate that act to an attempt to take back public lands in America & turn them all into private cow pastures------or fat cat estates.

There are millions of acres of public lands that are leased to ranchers at absurdly low rates by the BLM & Forest Service, and that land has mostly been turned into degraded cow-pastures that no farmer would allow on their own land.


Some photos of Idaho high desert BLM cattle habitat, very similar to that in the lower parts of Oregon's Malheur National National Wildlife Refuge.




My mother, who was a Idaho farmer's daughter, would repeatedly assure me during my rural Idaho childhood that: "cowshit smells like money."

Funny how cowshit still smells like cowshit to me.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 4, 2016 - 07:02pm PT
ehh... whatever. another one greased.

thoughts on what happens to these terrorists once they freeze and give up?
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jan 4, 2016 - 07:10pm PT
Well, if they were black they'd probably be dead by now.

Slap on the wrists for the good 'ol boys.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 07:17pm PT
thoughts on what happens to these terrorists once they freeze and give up?

They go off and form the nation of Deseret, apparently.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 4, 2016 - 07:18pm PT
yup, Thugs would be taken out. brown-skin terrorists as well. White Patriots - you can leave.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 4, 2016 - 07:36pm PT
The LDS Church doesn't seem too happy about it:

SALT LAKE CITY — LDS Church leaders on Monday plainly and roundly denounced a militia whose organizers cited Mormon scriptures in the months before they seized a federal facility in Oregon on Saturday.

"While the disagreement occurring in Oregon about the use of federal lands is not a church matter," the church said in a statement, "church leaders strongly condemn the armed seizure of the facility and are deeply troubled by the reports that those who have seized the facility suggest that they are doing so based on scriptural principles. This armed occupation can in no way be justified on a scriptural basis. We are privileged to live in a nation where conflicts with government or private groups can — and should — be settled using peaceful means, according to the laws of the land."
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 4, 2016 - 07:43pm PT
It's painfully obvious, err... no it's only painful because I'm laughing so hard my abs hurt - that these dumb shits had no idea what they were doing or what they were getting themselves into.

They need skittles and blankets. And socks. reaching for a sock puppet joke but am ending up with fale.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 07:44pm PT
The DOJ report nonetheless accounts for the vehemence of the response to the shooting, and also explains why so many people didn't consider the particular facts in that particular shooting as important as the larger history.

Exactly. The people of Ferguson lived - lived - every day under the thumb of an incredibly oppressive and corrupt local government which was essentially an organized crime operation whose sole purpose was to strip residents of cash and used intimidation and incarceration to do it.

I know the usual suspect will accuse me of my usual false equivalence, but I see the same thing happening on this issue. Those supporting the occupiers are using their perceptions of history between the occupiers and their supposed supporters and the government as justification for the trespass/occupation.

I don't hold myself immune from this. I simply don't see any justification in current American history for occupation of anything by anyone who doesn't own it. That's true whether it's Justin Herman Plaza in San Francisco, Alcatraz Island by native Americans, or an abandoned facility in Oregon. The use of extra-governmental force threatens a free society, wherever we use that force.

Yes, it is false equivalence and not simply a matter of perception - the people of Ferguson, African and Native Americans in particular - have suffered explicit and enduring exploitation and abuse enabled by government. Occupy was a grassroots response to the clear and pervasive rigging of our financial system to benefit the few over the many which continues unabated and without restraint as we write these words.

The above are very real injuries whereas the common complaints of angry bigoted, racist, sexist and homophobic white men the nation over - but particularly in the south and west - are perceptions driven and fueled by hate and a persecution complex which is largely the result of an inability to deal with the reality of white males now having to 'share' their [economic] world with women and minorities.

That recognition of women's and civil rights coincided with the mass exodus of manufacturing jobs and the demise of the notion of a career-and-pension-for-life simply added fuel to the fire of that sense of persecution. But if you dig into the lives of almost all these far right extremists - particularly out west - you invariably find they are living off federal largess in some form or another and their real problem is one of entitlement and a longing for a return to the days when women and minorities could be denied equal rights with impunity.

And the saddest part is it's guys like Donald Trump are the one's who are both f*#king them and then stirring them up to vote against their own economic interests. But then nothing new there; the gop has played middle-age white males like a fiddle for the last fifty years with increasingly shrill rhetoric and actions like these and attacks on mosques are a direct result of that political pandering. Winemaker summed that up succinctly on the DT thread:


Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 4, 2016 - 07:53pm PT
Oregon activists picked the wrong battle, militia leaders say

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/oregon-activists-picked-the-wrong-battle-militia-leaders-say/ar-AAgmarO?li=BBnb7Kz


© REUTERS/Jim Urquhart

Self-styled militia members who seized federal property in rural Oregon in an effort to galvanize opposition to the U.S. government appear to have made a tactical error - potential allies say they picked the wrong battle.

As armed anti-government activists occupied a snowy wildlife refuge for a third day to call attention to a land-use dispute, militia leaders from similar groups across the country criticized the seizure of federal land and a building.

The protesters have said they aim "to restore and defend the Constitution" to protect the rights of ranchers and ignite a national debate about states' rights and federal land-use policy they hope could ultimately force the federal government to release tracts of Western land.

Their occupation of the headquarters of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge comes as the number of paramilitary groups is on the rise in the United States, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center, a legal advocacy group that tracks their numbers.

But the latest call to arms appears to have failed to resonate with like-minded groups whose support would be crucial for creating a coalition of armed militia members substantial enough to thwart a law enforcement operation.

"There's a better way to go about things," said Brandon Curtiss, president of Three Percent of Idaho, a militia group that has been involved in the dispute. "If you want to make a change like that, you need to get the county citizens behind you to go through the proper channels."

The protesters have rallied behind Oregon ranchers Dwight Hammond Jr. and Steven Hammond, who were found guilty of arson on public land near their property. They were initially sentenced to 12 months in prison, below the federal minimum for arson, but a U.S. judge raised the sentences to five years.

The Hammonds, who turned themselves in as planned on Monday at a federal prison in California, have said they do not support the protesters or their leader, Ammon Bundy, whose father, Cliven Bundy, was at the center of a 2014 standoff with the government over grazing rights in Nevada that ended with federal agents backing down in the face of about 1,000 armed militiamen, many on horseback.

The Pacific Patriot Network, an umbrella group for militias in the region, said it did not support seizing federal property even if it understood the underlying frustration with the federal government. "This land use issue is decades old and it's boiling up in frustration. That's what you're seeing," spokesman Joseph Rice said.

The Oath Keepers, another paramilitary group that participated in the 2014 Bundy ranch dispute in Nevada, also distanced itself from the latest standoff.

'WISH TO HELL HE HADN'T DONE THIS'

Some militia leaders said Bundy was using the dispute to provoke the federal government with little regard for the local community.

"Here you have a guy who believes he's on a mission from God. What the Hammonds want and what the community wants is immaterial," said Mike Vanderboegh, a founder of the III Percent Movement, which draws its name from the notion that only 3 percent of Americans actively participated in the Revolutionary War.



Vanderboegh and other leaders said they worried Bundy would provoke a violent response from the U.S. government similar to the 1993 siege of the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas, that ended in the deaths of 76 people.

Three Obama administration officials said federal authorities had been told to avoid a violent confrontation, in line with official U.S. policy after the deadly clashes at Waco and in 1992 at Ruby Ridge, Idaho

Armed U.S. paramilitary groups, which had been on the wane since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, have seen their ranks swell in recent years, driven by fears among the far right that President Barack Obama will threaten gun ownership and erode local rights.

The movement has also been energized by confrontations between ranchers, miners and federal regulators in the Western United States, where the government owns vast stretches of land.

The Southern Poverty Law Center estimates there are 276 active militia groups today, one-third more than before last year's standoff.

The latest incident began after militia groups from Oregon and Idaho staged a peaceful march in the nearby city of Burns on Saturday to protest what they see as heavy-handed management by bureaucrats with little interest in local concerns.

Other militia leaders declined to question Bundy's motives but said he stood little chance of getting the federal government to back down.

"If you want me to demonize this guy, I won't do it," said Bob Wright, a commander of the New Mexico Militia.

"But I wish to hell he hadn't done this," he said. (Reporting by Andy Sullivan in Washington; Editing by Jason Szep and Peter Cooney
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:11pm PT
They should just ignore those clowns.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:20pm PT
The only ones with a sovereign 'right' or grievance sufficient to warrant an armed occupation of that building are the Paiutes and even they, despite a century and a half of genocide and persecution, are using the judicial and legislative system of the nation which flat out stole those lands to address their complaints.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:23pm PT
wBraun! Re your comment:
Those guys are standing in the cold so you stoopid do nothing pussy finger wagging crankloons have something to bitch about ......


Good!

Let the stupid, soon to be ex-communicated, Mormon & idiot radicals, freeze in the dark. It will be good for your fellow-ducks on the refuge.

OH! SCHIST!

If I was the head "heavy-handed" government person responding to the Yeh-Hawdists, I would cut electricity & phone lines to their HQ too.

The hated government is being way to nice to those terrorists.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:25pm PT
Those guys are standing in the cold so you stoopid do nothing pussy finger wagging crankloons have something to bitch about ......

Apparently, ducky. The only ones standing in the cold are reporters.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:25pm PT
These poor stupertopo softmen yapping about dumbshits in the cold so the wernerloons have something to bitch about.

Hypocrite much? geez dude, give it a rest. It's unbecoming.


But I am glad it's helping the Ducks.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:28pm PT
I saw a link that indicated that one of the Bundy sons took a significant SBA loan for his trucking business...

Typical hypocrite. The government is just fine when it does the things you want and particularly when you use it to become wealthier.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:30pm PT
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/01/ammon-bundy-oregon-protest-sba-loan
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:41pm PT
Lorenzo: Thanks for the link from Mother Jones.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/01/ammon-bundy-oregon-protest-sba-loan

Mormon polygamists call ripping the government off for welfare, government loans that are never repaid, & any other kind of government support: Bleeding The Beast.

Looks like Ammon Bundy is good at both bleeding & challenging the beast. But will he fight the beast?


Ammon Bundy runs a Phoenix-based company called Valet Fleet Services LLC, which specializes in repairing and maintaining fleets of semitrucks throughout Arizona.

On April 15, 2010—Tax Day, as it happens—Bundy's business borrowed $530,000 through a Small Business Administration loan guarantee program. The available public record does not indicate what the loan was used for or whether it was repaid. The SBA website notes that this loan guarantee was issued under a program "to aid small businesses which are unable to obtain financing in the private credit marketplace."

The government estimated that this subsidy could cost taxpayers $22,419. Bundy did not respond to an email request for comment about the SBA loan.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:44pm PT
*
I can't believe no one has put up this video..It speaks for itself.
[Click to View YouTube Video]


nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:52pm PT
Fritz.. reading that makes me want to vomit. Here I am about to quit my 8 year day job to start up a business. We're boot strapping a brick and mortar business. If there's one thing I believe more than anything is the way we'll use the technology (small unmanned aircraft) is that we can save lives. And the last thing either of us (Pagan monkey boy being my biz partner) wants is outside money from any source. You give us $500K right now and we'll turn that into a business that's pulling in 100 times that in five years. These people make me sick because they are as un-American (not anti-) as it gets.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:54pm PT
Jon Ritzheimer should read the ENTIRE constitution.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:59pm PT
*

Nature... i'll give you an amen...
and, good luck with your new business..


Jon Ritzheimer should read the ENTIRE constitution.
Yup...
and

Jon Ritzheimer should be at home taking care of his family.... what a pathetic fool...
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:02pm PT
'Y'all Qaeda'

I love it!

I will say that the Hammonds have acted honorably in this, turning themselves in, and turning the head down on what looked to have violence potential.

They deserve credit for that, and should get a significant sentence reduction. We are safer with them out of prison, than in.

nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:09pm PT
Ken M +1


Edit: The Bundy's on the other hand....
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:11pm PT
Laws are currently on the docket to reduce time served for mandatory sentences beyond the current 47 days a year for good behavior.

Pending Bills in the 114th Congress:

There have been several bills introduced in the 114th Congress that would increase good time or earned time credit:

Prisoner Incentive Act (H.R. 1252) (Scott): Introduced by Rep. Bobby Scott, this bill, if passed, would fix the technical error in 18 U.S.C. section 3624 so that prisoners can earn a full 54 days of good time credit each year if they obey prison rules and are well-behaved. FAMM supports this bill. This bill is not a law. We do not know if or when they will become law. To become a law, a bill must be passed by both houses of Congress and signed by the President. Every year, thousands of bills are introduced in Congress, but very few become law.

CORRECTIONS Act (S. 467) (Cornyn/Whitehouse): Introduced by Senators John Cornyn (R-TX) and Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI), this bill, if passed, would require the federal Bureau of Prisons to classify federal prisoners as being at high, medium, or low risk of reoffending and permit some offenders to earn time credits that could be used so that the person spends more time in a halfway house, on home confinement, or under community supervision at the end of their sentences. This bill is not a law. We do not know if or when they will become law. To become a law, a bill must be passed by both houses of Congress and signed by the President. Every year, thousands of bills are introduced in Congress, but very few become law.

Recidivism Risk Reduction Act (H.R. 759) (Chaffetz/Gowdy/Richmond/Jeffries): Introduced by Reps. Jason Chaffetz (R-UT), Trey Gowdy (R-SC), Cedric Richmond (D-LA), and Hakeem Jeffries (D-NY), this bill, if passed, would require the federal Bureau of Prisons to classify federal prisoners as being at high, medium, or low risk of reoffending and permit some offenders to earn time credits that could be used so that the person spends more time in a halfway house, on home confinement, or under community supervision at the end of their sentences. This bill is not a law. We do not know if or when they will become law. To become a law, a bill must be passed by both houses of Congress and signed by the President. Every year, thousands of bills are introduced in Congress, but very few become law.

With the Supreme Court refusing the writ of certiorari, their only other Hope is clemency from Obama. Now wouldn't that be ironic.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2016 - 09:12pm PT
Ritzheimer is a real piece of work, he is a classic example of these guys

The FogBow has a huge database about these various Sovcits (sovereign citizens) There is a few of them

http://thefogbow.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=26

They have this thread about him

http://thefogbow.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=8203&hilit=ritzheimer
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:28pm PT
^^^^^^All out Loon convention. Show a little more hatred morons.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:32pm PT
Jon: Thanks for the link on Ritztts-Weiler.

I went to Iraq again in 2008 and lived out of an MRAP for 5 months without a shower. We were not shot at even once during the time we lived outside the wire. After returning from this deployment I decided to use my 9-11 GI bill and attended Grossmont College.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:41pm PT
rick? I never thought you slow, but your comeback is lacking.

All out Loon convention. Show a little more hatred morons.


Are you supporting the Yeh-heydist idiots?

Or do you just want to spew?
WBraun

climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:43pm PT
We don't support them but you're all still a bunch a stoopid finger waggin hypocrite morons ....
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:47pm PT
ah yes!

and you sir, are a paranoid duck.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:48pm PT
Dude, you ran away to the Valley never to return; so what exactly looks back at you when you look in the mirror?

P.S. trademark that phrase - it basically only exists here on ST because of you...

crankloon
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:49pm PT
duck with a finger
dirtbag

climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:55pm PT
^^^^^^All out Loon convention. Show a little more hatred morons.


How come you aren't at Malheur?
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:59pm PT
Not loon season?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 4, 2016 - 10:08pm PT
The real Crank Klune:


Russ Klune on Vandals 5.13a, Skytop - Gunks.
(Linked from Pinterest, can't find photog name)
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 4, 2016 - 10:12pm PT
Cowboys occupying Indian land, basically.
Dave Davis

Social climber
Seattle, WA
Jan 4, 2016 - 10:19pm PT
How do these wankers find time for militia activities? Don't any of them work? Just wondering.....
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 10:22pm PT
Ammon Bundy took out a half million + SBA loan. I guess he bought the generator with some of it. There wasn't enough left over for snacks.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jan 4, 2016 - 10:40pm PT
You know Dirt, I don't know who is stupider-the Malheur malcontents or the audience.

d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
Jan 4, 2016 - 10:44pm PT
No, just you
N-rig Sumner.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 11:13pm PT
These guys remind me of this
[Click to View YouTube Video]
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 04:36am PT
nita- That video is amazing. This guy clearly thought he was going to die in a gun fight with the Feds and he was ready to leave his daughters behind to do it. Someone needs to point that guy in the right direction.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Jan 5, 2016 - 05:04am PT
Another Cabelas sponsored pose off...
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jan 5, 2016 - 05:31am PT
Cabelas militia wear line?

i like mine paired with constitutional underwear and a Happy Meal
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 05:38am PT

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 06:25am PT
John posted
The DOJ report nonetheless accounts for the vehemence of the response to the shooting, and also explains why so many people didn't consider the particular facts in that particular shooting as important as the larger history.

I know the usual suspect will accuse me of my usual false equivalence, but I see the same thing happening on this issue. Those supporting the occupiers are using their perceptions of history between the occupiers and their supposed supporters and the government as justification for the trespass/occupation.

No, your point was already made several times by myself and others. Still, you have to be really committed to not seeing the problem if you can't see the differences in the way that both the media and the government handles a bunch of armed white guys taking a government building (and making statements how they are willing to die for their cause, even leaving "goodbye" videos to that end) by force and a bunch of mostly black people holding unarmed protests. Likewise, the grievances of people who think the government is oppressing them because of their sense of entitlement versus actual, documented oppression. It's absurd.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jan 5, 2016 - 06:35am PT
The government let Cliven "Let me tell you one more thing I know about the Negro" Bundy off in '14, which obviously emboldened these anti-government extremists.

These lawless militants need to face legal consequences.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 5, 2016 - 06:46am PT
Per this link, the electricity & phone to the Yeh-hawdists gets turned off, and the road gets blocked today.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/authorities-plan-to-cut-off-power-to-militia-at-occupied-oregon-refuge/ar-AAgnu3F?li=BBnb7Kz

Bundy has repeatedly said the group is prepared for the long-haul. However during a tour of the site on earlier in the day, the Guardian was shown a food storage room that did not look like it could sustain a dozen men for more than a few weeks.

It included a cardboard box of apples and oranges, a few dozen pots of instant ramen, 24 cans of chicken noodle soup, a similar number of cans of sweetcorn, peas, beans and chili, and 20 boxes of macaroni and cheese.

There were also three sacks of potatoes, one bag of flour, another of rolled oats, boxes of raisins, a single bag of pretzels and one granola bar.

I'm sure they will relish the suffering, for a while.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 06:51am PT
It's taken them this long to turn off the power? Their clockwork Hans Gruber plan has gone awry!!!


tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jan 5, 2016 - 06:57am PT
there really is no need to throw the race card into this. it's apples and oranges. Urban protest Vs wackos in the middle of no where.

The driveing force here is .

1. Govt is deathly afraid of mayrtering these guys and starting a real civil war.

2. these guys are patheticaly ineffective posers. If they were to actually fire those guns instead of just dressing up like comandos and takeing selfies the game would change dramaticly.

HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Jan 5, 2016 - 07:02am PT
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 5, 2016 - 07:06am PT
If they die during yeehawd they get to sleep with 72 cousins.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jan 5, 2016 - 07:07am PT
After a stay at Y'allcatraz
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 07:07am PT
Why can't Obama just come out and decry Radical American Extremism? Why with the political correctness? It's literally killing us.


Here is radical American extremist John Ritzheimer wielding his text of hate and violence:



Apologists will say it laws down a foundation for love and freedom but the only country that worships it has perpetrated mass genocide and is still the only nation to use atomic weapons. I think it's clear what the true meaning of that book is.
MattB

Trad climber
Tucson
Jan 5, 2016 - 07:21am PT
Really not impossible for them to live out there indefinitely..

Tons of birds and fish, no population or economy anywhere nearby thus no real "threat". And that building is pretty swank..


I think maybe the Yosemite stables, maybe Ahwahnee would make a sweet homestead. And I own them, right?
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jan 5, 2016 - 07:25am PT
If they die during yeehawd they get to sleep with 72 cousins.

that's hilarious!

I'm thinking we dress Burchy in Carharts and put him in charge of the Valley takeover. Locker can be minister of disinformation.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 5, 2016 - 07:41am PT
Fritz.. reading that makes me want to vomit. Here I am about to quit my 8 year day job to start up a business. We're boot strapping a brick and mortar business. If there's one thing I believe more than anything is the way we'll use the technology (small unmanned aircraft) is that we can save lives. And the last thing either of us (Pagan monkey boy being my biz partner) wants is outside money from any source. You give us $500K right now and we'll turn that into a business that's pulling in 100 times that in five years. These people make me sick because they are as un-American (not anti-) as it gets.


Good luck with that. Let me know how easy it is to wade through the morass of regulations, decrees, compliance, fees and payola required to big daddy .gov in order to start a business and begin paying income taxes. Hope you aren't successful. (Is that the modern day business version of "break a leg"?)

Oh, and don't forget that your drone needs to be properly registered in order to fly. Oops, you didn't realize that the registration sticker was lead and weighs 25 pounds including the adhesive backing? Bummer, I guess they needed to pass it in order to know what was in it.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 5, 2016 - 07:43am PT
Wow, did anybody listen to that streaming audio from Ritzheimer on the Fogbow link Jon Beck provided a couple pages back??

Wow. He certainly sounds..A.N.G.R.Y.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 5, 2016 - 07:53am PT
Good luck with that. Let me know how easy it is to wade through the morass of regulations, decrees, compliance, fees and payola required to big daddy .gov in order to start a business...

It's impossible! That's why you never see any businesses around ANYWHERE!
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 07:55am PT


The people of Ferguson lived - lived - every day under the thumb of an incredibly oppressive and corrupt local government which was essentially an organized crime operation whose sole purpose was to strip residents of cash and used intimidation and incarceration to do it.

Exactly.


nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 5, 2016 - 07:59am PT
interesting article Fritz. But I thought I read on the internet that there were no Feds on scene. This thread in fact. I read it on the internet so it has to be true. And now another story contradicts that. so confused.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:15am PT
When Ritzheimer was asking for snacks, he said they didn't need money, but that if people wanted to send it, they should link to this site:

http://www.rogueinfidel.com

It opens with the banner

Leading the fight against Islam
Between that and the captain Moroni thing, it's a bit odd nobody is mentioning the religious component.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:16am PT
there really is no need to throw the race card into this. it's apples and oranges. Urban protest Vs wackos in the middle of no where.

I totally disagree. Remember this?

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Black people, muslims, Mexicans and other south American peoples should all be totally pissed off as there is no liberty and justice for all.

An unarmed black man selling single cigarettes is choked to death in NY, a black kid with a toy gun is shot by police. I can go on and on.

Republicans running for office and currently in office (and some dem.s) actually discriminating against muslims.

Trump insulting Mexicans. The list goes on and on and on.

If you don't believe that the government response would be different if these guys were black or muslim or Mexican, then you are not seeing the current state of affairs in the USA today. During the previous Bundy debacle, these white terrorists pointed guns at federal agents who were trying to uphold the law and the government did nothing about it. Meanwhile in more situations than I can recount here, black people who were posing no threat to anyone were killed by law enforcement.

I challenge anyone to point out the justice and liberty in those comparisons. It makes me sick to think about.



Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:27am PT
I heard on NPR this morning that they have stated that if the county population does not support their being there, they will leave(and most in the county do not support their actions).

Of course, they will then probably hunker down and turn the debacle into a "learnable Mistake," and start planning on a more appropriate objective.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:33am PT
You know, there is other news in the world - it's raining in La-La Land!
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:34am PT
tradman posted
there really is no need to throw the race card into this. it's apples and oranges. Urban protest Vs wackos in the middle of no where.

Perhaps you mean the issue is black and white? The feds are responding appropriately given the history of Waco and Ruby Ridge. The point is that they do not respond in this manner in other circumstances. The rules change.


The driveing force here is .

1. Govt is deathly afraid of mayrtering these guys and starting a real civil war.

Nobody thinks a civil war is at stake here but they are certainly learning their lessons from previous events.


2. these guys are patheticaly ineffective posers. If they were to actually fire those guns instead of just dressing up like comandos and takeing selfies the game would change dramaticly.

So you're suggesting that we ignore armed people who claim they are willing to die opposing America? How many poser gangster pictures/videos did TGT/Chief post trying to justify the brutal treatment of black Americans by police?
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2016 - 08:34am PT
One reason nothing has happened is the remoteness of the area. 7000 residents in 10000 square miles. The Sheriff has 7 officers, the Burns police have 3. Not even enough men to block the roads to Malheur (4 roads). Those facts and the holidays have delayed the response. The Feds are going to have to deal with this with manpower brought in from hundreds of miles a away. There is no reason to act swiftly and make mistakes. They can cut power, could even disable their cellphone accounts. Lack of attention will smoke them out quicker than tear gas. The noose will tighten, I predict that these idiots will leave non-chalantly like nothing happened and there will be an outcry about excessive government power when they get arrested.

zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:37am PT
We're planning a YokelsOnly invasion of the Camp Pendleton Beach this month. Join us or don't, but if you don't, don't whine when they come for your National Parks Senior Passes.



Surfers are being punished for an "outside the ring" fire they started over 15 years ago, they have spent upwards to $1.50 in their legal defense. They have exhausted all their avenues in the federal court system. They have used up every bit of emotion and will they possessed. (From what I’m being told, the Surfers at one time were valiant fighters for what is right). Many cannot believe they have given up. But the system has broken them. The Surfers have exhausted prudence over many years. They are the epitome of what Americans will become if the system is allowed to ruin all of us.

-Amen ButtHole Surfer


The RogueInfidels have graciously allowed us to utilize their website to collect gas money to get over there to Pendleton.

http://www.rogueinfidel.com/





EDIT FOR CLARITY:

Free the Camp Pendleton Beach from the Obama Lackey Marines of FedGovt




HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:47am PT
zBrown you have thoroughly confused me.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:55am PT
You know, there is other news in the world - it's raining in La-La Land!

Don't panic. It will end by 11:00AM.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 5, 2016 - 09:02am PT
Rogue Infidels have "Leading The Fight Against Islam" and "Preserve All Freedoms" on the same page.

That's f*#king priceless......
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jan 5, 2016 - 09:06am PT
1. yes i do believe that the feds are afraid of giveing these ass clowns an excuse to be become mayrters and fuel the flames of a white conservative vs liberal armed conflict. the movement is totally fringe at this time and they would like to keep it that way. Giveing them annother waco or ruby ridge is not in their or our bests intrests. This is not white privledge as much as it is stratedgy.

2. these guys are pathetic posers/losers makeing their stand in the middle of nowhere. Pull the same sh#t in an urban area, burn a few cop cars and loot a few drugstores and you would most certainly get your equal rights heavy handed response.
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Jan 5, 2016 - 09:08am PT
So here is what I currently think about this issue. Of course what I think might change as more information comes in. Being willing to change your mind is important in objective analysis and I try to be objective but it is difficult for humans to be objective. I do understand that the truth is extremely complex and hard to know. I also know that pretty much nobody here is really interested my opinion but I feel like spouting off too. I really don’t care if you agree or disagree but if you have reliable information (data) that I haven’t considered, I would like to see it.

I grew up in the rural west. I've seen a lot of it up close. Dad (stepfather) was a field man for the USGS topographic division and worked in the seven western states. He would be assigned to some small town in the middle of nowhere to fill in the map info that they couldn't get from aerial photos. When he finished in one area, we would move on to the next. We usually moved twice a year - north in the summer and south in the winter. Sometimes we moved as many as 4 times a year. I went to 26 different grade schools as small as eight grades in two rooms with 25 kids. I have worked on farms and cattle ranches. Some of the best people I have ever met live in these little towns. I know honest, hardworking men and women who will melt your heart in these towns. I am a fourth generation northern Idahonian and born into a large family of farmers, loggers and blue collar workers. I was born in Bonners Ferry because Moyie Springs is too small to have a doctor. Of my 26 maternal first cousins only three earned a university degree. (My brother and I have MS degrees and one cousin has a PhD) I think I know a little bit about rural western America.

I have lived in Burns and have spent time in the Steens Mountains and the Malheur Wildlife Refuge. Burns was a logging and sawmill town but that industry has died. My brother and I recall Burns as the least friendly town we ever lived in. It is the only town that I can think of that I don't recall a single friendly kid. A town I recall as being full of unhappy people. The area does have a history of land grabbing cattle barons. The most famous was Peter French who was shot dead over a fence disagreement – the current conflict is really about fences. The man who shot French was found not guilty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_French

The population in the USA is rapidly urbanizing as money and jobs leave the farm. Blue collar jobs have also nearly vanished from the economy. There are still a lot of high paying jobs but they are in places like Palo Alto and require specialized and advanced university degrees. These are jobs that often cannot be filled due to a lack of qualified people. I know of a company that pays summer student interns $2000 a week with lodging, meals and transportation but has trouble finding qualified people. The rural middle class feels disenfranchised and is pissed off. Rather than moving to the city and getting an education relevant to the current economy, some of them are taking up guns and what amounts to terrorism.

The disenfranchised rural population and the unemployed blue collar population are attracted to Trump and the republicans in general because they are hearing what they want to hear which is not necessarily reality. These people have lost touch with the modern world or perhaps the modern world has lost touch with them.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/12/the-four-basic-reasons-that-explain-why-donald-trump-actually-is-so-popular/

The Hammonds have threatened and terrorized federal officials and their families which, to me, is a crime. They don't like the law but the founding fathers knew that laws sometimes need to change and there are ways provided to do so that don't require guns and armed conflict. The problem is that the change requires a sympathetic majority and the majority is urban and swinging left. It is interesting that only one of the largest cities in the US has a republican mayor (San Diego oddly). Even Texas elects Democratic mayors.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/01/kevin-faulconer-mayor/422316/

The Hammonds and the Bundys will draw their supporters but their supporters will be a small minority. The vast majority probably isn’t even interested in this but when they start shooting; I suspect the uprising will be crushed. It seems like these people really, really want the shooting to start. It seems like they want to be martyred. Perhaps they expect 12 virgins.

This 1995 article gives some background on the Hammond conflict. It’s long but read it.


http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/01/05/showdown-in-the-malheur-marshes-the-origins-of-the-armed-occupation-in-burns-oregon/
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 09:16am PT
Thanks for all the resources, Banquo.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2016 - 09:21am PT
Great post Banqou, thanks. It is interesting to note that NPR interviewed Les Zaitz, a cattleman/journalist from the Burns area and he specifically said that although they are very conservative in that area, they also reject Trump, I was surprised.

Quote It is interesting that only one of the largest cities in the US has a republican mayor (San Diego oddly)Here

Funny thing is that the SD mayor accused his opponents of playing dirty politics when they called him out as a Republican. The right would call him a RINO, he is pro-choice and always supported gay marriage. He got elected for his conservative position on the public pension debacle that has SD in a 2 billion dollar hole. San Diego was called Enron by the Sea

I think San Diego is majority Democrat, but people do not always vote the party line in local elections.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Jan 5, 2016 - 09:22am PT
1. yes i do believe that the feds are afraid of giveing these ass clowns an excuse to be become mayrters and fuel the flames of a white conservative vs liberal armed conflict. the movement is totally fringe at this time and they would like to keep it that way. Giveing them annother waco or ruby ridge is not in their or our bests intrests. This is not white privledge as much as it is stratedgy.

I understand what you are saying. However, the fact remains, that in the earlier Bundy clash in Nevada, some militia were pointing guns at federal agents who were acting in accordance with the law and nothing was done.

Meanwhile, multiple unarmed and unthreatening black people in urban areas are getting shot. If these guys were black or muslim or Syrian descent or Mexican descent you can bet your ass that the response would not be the same.

You said it yourself, race and politics are steering the American department of justice without regards to the laws of the land and that makes me sick.



michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 5, 2016 - 09:22am PT
Wait, Ya'll Queda only get 12 virgins? They sure f*#ked up in picking their religion.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 09:24am PT
Can anyone honestly pretend that an enclave of Mexican-Americans who had been grazing cattle on federal land without paying the proper fees would get the same treatment? Some Bubba's buddy at the government office would have handled that sh#t a long time ago and if they resisted with the threat of force it would be a sh#t show. These guys are at the pinnacle of white entitlement.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jan 5, 2016 - 09:27am PT
^ or a tribe taking back their hunting lands, instead of living on the crappy land they were forced to live on (the Rez)?

the Feds are officially pussies.
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Jan 5, 2016 - 09:27am PT
Wait, Ya'll Queda only get 12 virgins? They sure f*#ked up in picking their religion.

Word on the street is that it's seventy-two cousins.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 5, 2016 - 09:32am PT
Wait, Ya'll Queda only get 12 virgins? They sure f*#ked up in picking their religion.

That's all they could find among 72 cousins.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 5, 2016 - 09:44am PT
^ or a tribe taking back their hunting lands, instead of living on the crappy land they were forced to live on (the Rez)?

the Feds are officially pussies.

Holy Crap, Some of you retards are worse than the Bundys. That statement is as bad as Bundy fighting the government using his SBA funding.

Good grief.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jan 5, 2016 - 09:51am PT
Good post Banquo.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 5, 2016 - 09:55am PT
Another link to the death of Peter French.


http://gesswhoto.com/sheriff-harney4.html
dirtbag

climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 09:59am PT
Good post, banquo.

As usual, "High Country News" has excellent coverage of the Malheur events.

http://www.hcn.org/articles/oregon-occupation-at-wildlife-refuge

http://www.hcn.org/articles/photos-from-the-oregon-refuge-standoff-Hammonds-Burns

http://www.hcn.org/articles/modern-sagebrush-rebels-recycle-old-western-fantasies
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Jan 5, 2016 - 09:59am PT
This tempest in a teapot is being played out in the fifth least-populated of Oregon's counties, called Harney County. I've known about the Harney Desert and Steen's Mtn. and the Malheur Refuge since the days I first began climbing, though I have never gotten to visit the place and would love to sometime.

I did some checking and it turns out that Harney County is named for Brigadier-General William S. Harney, commanding the Dept. of Oregon in the year 1859, the year of the Pig War. The Big War, the one to keep the slaves in slavery, came 2 yrs. later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_War

What will the Wikipedia have to say about the Y'all Quaeda Incident in another hundred years is what I'm wondering.

Something like this?

"This conflict was fought in the media. The media won hands down. Since then, the land has gone over to total private ownership since all the wildfowl have become extinct due to typical human error and mis-calculation and neglect."
--MachineWiki
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jan 5, 2016 - 10:07am PT
That's all they could find among 72 cousins.

maybe they do the 'born again virgin' thing. ya know, pray to jebus and you are a virgin again!
John M

climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 10:12am PT
Great post Banquo.

I do wonder about this though..

The population in the USA is rapidly urbanizing as money and jobs leave the farm. Blue collar jobs have also nearly vanished from the economy. There are still a lot of high paying jobs but they are in places like Palo Alto and require specialized and advanced university degrees. These are jobs that often cannot be filled due to a lack of qualified people. I know of a company that pays summer student interns $2000 a week with lodging, meals and transportation but has trouble finding qualified people. The rural middle class feels disenfranchised and is pissed off. Rather than moving to the city and getting an education relevant to the current economy, some of them are taking up guns and what amounts to terrorism.

I doubt that the vast majority of these people are capable of doing that, even if they wanted to.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 10:12am PT
Escopeta posted
Holy Crap, Some of you retards are worse than the Bundys. That statement is as bad as Bundy fighting the government using his SBA funding.

Good grief.


I don't think you understood his point.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 5, 2016 - 10:13am PT
No, your point was already made several times by myself and others. Still, you have to be really committed to not seeing the problem if you can't see the differences in the way that both the media and the government handles a bunch of armed white guys taking a government building (and making statements how they are willing to die for their cause, even leaving "goodbye" videos to that end) by force and a bunch of mostly black people holding unarmed protests. Likewise, the grievances of people who think the government is oppressing them because of their sense of entitlement versus actual, documented oppression. It's absurd.

The problem with the "unarmed protests" is that the "protesters" were actively harming their community and weren't exactly nonviolent. If the Branch Stupidians/ Infanttada participants (thank you, El Cap) were in an urban area, looting, destroying vehicles and buildings and threatening the safety and livelihoods of ordinary citizens, you bet the response would be different. The difference has much more to do with location than race.

I still like Gary's suggestion the best. If we leave them alone and the press ignores them, we have an effectively self-supporting federal detention center. We can always keep them under drone surveilance, and arrest each as he or she leaves. It's so close to a free lunch it scares me.

John
MattB

Trad climber
Tucson
Jan 5, 2016 - 10:19am PT
Banquo said

So here is what I currently think about this issue. Of course what I think might change as more information comes in. Being willing to change your mind is important in objective analysis and I try to be objective but it is difficult for humans to be objective. I do understand that the truth is extremely complex and hard to know. I also know that pretty much nobody here is really interested my opinion but I feel like spouting off too. I really don’t care if you agree or disagree but if you have reliable information (data) that I haven’t considered, I would like to see it.


That's a perfect preface to a very good argument/explanation ... best take on the situation micro and macro

John M

climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 10:21am PT
Just a reminder JohnE, much of the looting started after the police tried to break them up with tear gas.

I wonder what would happen in Oregon if riot clad police showed up in force. Would something start. My guess is that it would. One side or the other would start it.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 5, 2016 - 10:25am PT
Banquo, if I may expand on John M's point in Post 400, above, here in the Big Raisin, we often read stories about how thousands of good jobs in Fresno County go unfilled because we lack the qualified workforce. These stories appear not only in the sadly diminished Fresno Bee, but in national newpapers such as the New York Times and Washington Post.

These jobs don't require a college degree, but they require specialized training or skills and what we used to call high school graduate-level literacy. They also require the sorts of work habits that most working particpants on this forum take for granted, such as showing up on time and dependably, and doing your job.

Blue-collar jobs haven't disappeared, but the sorts of entry-level jobs that lead to a good blue-collar job have become increasingly difficult to find in high-cost California. Sad to say, our push to a $15.00 minimum wage here (based on the much higher Bay Area cost of living) won't help the disappearance of those jobs here and, I suspect, elsewhere in this state.

John
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 10:27am PT
John posted
The problem with the "unarmed protests" is that the "protesters" were actively harming their community and weren't exactly nonviolent. If the Branch Stupidians/ Infanttada participants (thank you, El Cap) were in an urban area, looting, destroying vehicles and buildings and threatening the safety and livelihoods of ordinary citizens, you bet the response would be different. The difference has much more to do with location than race.

You mean like if they were pointing armed weapons at federal agents?



Too bad he ran away before anyone could find out who he was.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Oh wait here's a video of him talking about how he thinks it was good there were kids wandering around in the middle of the standoff.

John, you're fooling yourself if you think it's just a matter of location or behavior. BLM protesters were almost entirely peaceful and there were unfortunately a fraction of the people involved (literally anyone can march in a street) became violent. It's condescending to put "protesters" in quotes when referring to them. They were protesters. I'm not sure why you are so committed to being dismissive of what those people were overcoming. It is a miracle that it wasn't more violent.

Additionally, this type of response has shown to be completely ineffective at maintaining peace as was learned in the Seattle WTO protests. The Ferguson government had developed a completely predatory relationship with it's citizenry and when they finally marched those in power knew exactly what they were in for and responded ready for war.

10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jan 5, 2016 - 10:37am PT
I still like Gary's suggestion the best. If we leave them alone and the press ignores them, we have an effectively self-supporting federal detention center. We can always keep them under drone surveilance, and arrest each as he or she leaves. It's so close to a free lunch it scares me.

My understanding is that there aren't any LEOs to arrest anybody.

I don't buy the argument that the lack of jobs is a driving force behind this.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 5, 2016 - 10:38am PT
I don't think you understood his point.

Good lord I hope you're right.
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Jan 5, 2016 - 10:38am PT
These jobs don't require a college degree, but they require specialized training or skills and what we used to call high school graduate-level literacy. They also require the sorts of work habits that most working particpants on this forum take for granted, such as showing up on time and dependably, and doing your job.

There are real problems in the job market and not all good jobs require an advanced degree. Try to hire a qualified tool and die maker. Admittedly, that trade may require more dedication to learn than a university degree.

If you are born into a wealthy family, you will probably be wealthy. If you were born poor, will will probably stay that way.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/economic-mobility-hasnt-changed-in-a-half-century-in-america-economists-declare/2014/01/22/e845db4a-83a2-11e3-8099-9181471f7aaf_story.html

There is hope. I taught engineering at SJSU for 30 years and there are a lot of kids from simple backgrounds that do make it. You can't imagine how happy it makes me to think I might have helped a few of them.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 5, 2016 - 10:41am PT
Just a reminder JohnE, much of the looting started after the police tried to break them up with tear gas.

I wonder what would happen in Oregon if riot clad police showed up in force. Would something start. My guess is that it would. One side or the other would start it.

That's why leaving them as a self-supporting prison camp is such a good idea.

I should also add that I experienced plenty of tear gas as a student at Berkeley from 1969-73, and whether white or black, the presence of riot police tends to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. To my knowledge, only one person was killed by law enforcement in Berkeley -- James Rector, who was white, but those shot were a much higher number.

I also found it ironic then that all the national attention was on the white students shot at Kent State. At least there was a mob potential there. The massacre at Jackson State, where law "enforcement" shot out every window on the side of a women's dormitory, and killed two black men with buckshot, got ignored. I understand how mobs inspire panic, which could make the Kent State shootings something other than premeditated murder.

Jackson State started with, allegedly, about 100 people throwing rocks at white motorists and interfering with firefighters, but the shootings occurred at a different part of campus. Evidence suggests that, at the time of the shooting, there were more LEO's present than members of the crowd they were allegedly controlling. In those days, I guess the MSM found a police killing of a white person big news; that of a black not so.

At least that double standard in press coverage has lessened, but that's also beside the point. It takes much greater restraint to keep riot police away from a large, angry crowd in a highly-populated urban area than it does to keep a bunch of angry people isolated in a thinly-populated rural area. I just wish the press would exercise the same restraint. These are idiots behaving like idiots -- dog bites man. If they start behaving like intelligent people, that could be news -- man bites dog.

John

Edit: HDDJ, I don't consider federal agents in a rural area "ordinary citizens."

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 5, 2016 - 10:44am PT
I'm amused that people really think the Ferguson rioters were "unarmed"... lol

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 5, 2016 - 10:55am PT
Four generations of self entitled welfare cheats have helped to bankrupt US and most don't even know what the term national debt even means. Seriously, most of these idiots think it some sort of aggregate credit card liabilities.

We have people who refuse the low end jobs that people in other countries are more than willing to do. So is it any wonder that corporations are exporting jobs?




Now, can we please get back to Yee-haad! Those whacky street theater terrorists.


Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 5, 2016 - 11:01am PT
Bundy has repeatedly said the group is prepared for the long-haul. However during a tour of the site on earlier in the day, the Guardian was shown a food storage room that did not look like it could sustain a dozen men for more than a few weeks.

It included a cardboard box of apples and oranges, a few dozen pots of instant ramen, 24 cans of chicken noodle soup, a similar number of cans of sweetcorn, peas, beans and chili, and 20 boxes of macaroni and cheese.

There were also three sacks of potatoes, one bag of flour, another of rolled oats, boxes of raisins, a single bag of pretzels and one granola bar.

This doesn't account for the drone drops!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 5, 2016 - 11:04am PT
In those days, I guess the MSM found a police killing of a white person big news; that of a black not so.

Hate to break it to you, John, but police killing of a black man is NOT news---there is nothing unusual, unique, or surprising about that.

This is why people protest, and post about it. It is not news in the traditional sense.

I like your concept of a self-funded federal prison!
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 5, 2016 - 11:09am PT
Try to hire a qualified tool and die maker.

Try to BE a qualified tool and die maker.

Nobody wants to pay to train them, and then they won't pay competitive salary and benefits.

Anybody who is skilled works for themselves on contract and makes three times the money.

Back in the 70's I had this discussion about carpenters when the going rate was $4 an hour and a company president uttered the line "you just can't get a good carpenter anymore"

I told him that was because a good carpenter won't work for somebody else for $4, and asked the president if he would work for that. He said of course not- he was a manager. So I told him if he wanted the work done, I hoped he could manage to put a tool belt on.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2016 - 11:13am PT
Four generations of self entitled welfare cheats have helped to bankrupt US

That has got to be the most ignorant statement of the week, and that is a low bar on ST.

FACT The biggest moochers are in rural America.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 5, 2016 - 11:17am PT
Nah. The biggest moochers are people who get virtually free water from any federal water project, and anybody who profits from the oil depletion allowance.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 11:17am PT
That's actually a really important point. The issue is entitlement. Most conservatives who decry welfare or government support are upset at the idea of people they don't think deserve it getting it. If America woke up tomorrow an entirely white nation the qualms about welfare would drop significantly. It's all about white entitlement.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 5, 2016 - 11:20am PT
I wouldn't argue that, Jon.

Colorado City is just down the road, some of the biggest cheats of all.



Just caught Capitan Moroni live, he tried to pull the speech that Shylock used in Merchant of Venice in order to garner sympathy, but failed to use iambic pentameter.




edit
Hell, even the climbing ethics wars are about entitlement.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 11:25am PT
I love you all. I love this thread. I love this whole thing.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 5, 2016 - 11:28am PT
Four generations of self entitled welfare cheats have helped to bankrupt US

I think it is unfair to label all western ranchers as welfare cheats. Just because they benefit from welfare doesn't mean they cheated.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 5, 2016 - 11:54am PT
HighDesertDJ - you should add "Check, and Mate" to the post with videos.
John M

climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 12:04pm PT
I should also add that I experienced plenty of tear gas as a student at Berkeley from 1969-73, and whether white or black, the presence of riot police tends to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I'm sorry John, but comparing your experience growing up white in a white dominated society and then getting tear gassed when you mostly trust the police, to that of blacks who have good reason to not trust the police is just not the same. When you can't have a basic trust in those who enforce the law, then you have a serious situation. Which is part of what this situation in Oregon is about. Can we trust the feds to bring fair justice or do they strong arm people…. And please people, I am not trying to justify what is happen right now in Oregon. I'm just pointing to some roots, which is what we should be talking about.

These guys are whack, but there is also a growing sense of mistrust of government. Is it legit? I think on some levels it is. The crazy tax codes and overbearing rules we live with are out of whack in my opinion. Are there also those who are playing on peoples fears and making problems appear bigger then they are? I would say "absolutely". We need to find middle ground where we can discuss what to do, rather then just continually placing blame. People do need to take responsibility for their part in things, but we can't keep focusing on blame.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 5, 2016 - 12:26pm PT
We need to find middle ground where we can discuss what to do, rather then just continually placing blame. People do need to take responsibility for their part in things, but we can't keep focusing on blame.

Amen, John. I think some of the mistrust of government comes from the trend where both parties are nominating more extreme, less centrist, candidates for public office. Those not affiliated with the party of the elected public servant in question end up feeling completely disenfranchised, whether its crazies in Oregon or a rational disaffection in Ferguson.

Maybe because I'm a Republican, I get bombarded by the arguments of the extremists, allegedly on the right. (I say "allegedly" because many of their positions oppose traditional conservative values such as the free movement of goods and people or separation of church and state). It sickens me to read the rants of those for whom compromise and treason form synonyms. Maybe Democrats get the same sort of stuff from the left; I hope not. We desperately need politicians who can be statesmen, too. (I'm sorry, but I don't know the politically correct term for "statesman" or "statesmanship." That may be an unintended consequence of treating "man" as exclusively male.)

I must say in that regard that the second incarnation of Jerry Brown as governor has done a surprisingly good job of trying to be the governor of all Californians. He's spent precious little time trying to find blame, and a lot of time looking for solutions. We need more politicians like that.

John
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 5, 2016 - 12:29pm PT
Sheesh, two level-headed unemotional posts in a row? WTF? I'm gonna comp each of you
a copy of my new book - The Growth Of Self-Serving Bureaucracy".
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Jan 5, 2016 - 12:34pm PT
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 5, 2016 - 12:40pm PT
I've been doing a little reading about this whole affair. The two ranchers got stuck in federal mandatory minimum sentences. The judge even said that the 5 year sentence was unfair.

Mandatory minimums came about in the 90's when congressmen all started campaigning against crime. The result has been huge sentences for small crimes. We need to revisit that legislation and change it. They passed the laws because they thought that judges were letting people off with lenient sentences. The result has been a disappointment.

So I am with the two ranchers here. Burning some government scrub land is illegal, I agree. 5 years in prison is too much though.

I have absolutely no respect for the Bundy boys and the militia idiots. What they are doing is far more serious than burning 150 acres which probably needed it anyway. These guys took over a federal facility by force, and they are telling everyone that they make stay there for years, like they will actually change anything about how the BLM runs things.

I hope that these guys end up in jail. They deserve it far more than the two ranchers did.

And the ranchers and their families have said that they want nothing to do with Bundy, etal. So why are they even there?

There are a number of youtube videos of Ammon Bundy yacking away. He isn't exactly keeping his cards close to his chest.

What would happen to anyone here if they got their guns and took over the cafeteria in Curry Village?

These are not unarmed peaceful protests. They are headed for jail, and when the BLM seizes Bundy's land for non-payment of his grazing fees, I hope he goes down in flames. Figuratively.
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Jan 5, 2016 - 12:50pm PT
I think 5 years is ridiculous for the crime that they are convicted of but that is just what the feds charged them with. Probably because they felt they could get a conviction.

The Hammonds have been trespassing on federal land, tearing out federal fences and threatening to kill federal agents and their families since the 90's. They should be in prison even longer as far as I am concerned.

Repeat link:

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/01/05/showdown-in-the-malheur-marshes-the-origins-of-the-armed-occupation-in-burns-oregon/
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 5, 2016 - 12:50pm PT
BASE104,

Minimum sentences started long before the 1990's. Several federal criminal statutes have had minimum sentences, some quite absurd. (As an example, if you fail to turn yourself in for the execution of a sentence of death, a minimum of two years imprisonment will be added to your sentence. This can be either a boon or a bane, depending on your view of life on death row.)

In the 1990's, the infamous sentencing guidelines purported to impose minimum sentences where the statutes failed to do so. The SCOTUS struck down the mandatory nature of those guidelines around 2004 or 2005, but the reasoning was that they exceeded the authority of a commission by de facto amending the criminal statutes to impose mandatory minima where congress had not done so.

The most egregious miscarriages I saw under the guidelines involved drug cases. Several of my fellow inmates at Taft were serving enormous sentences for very tiny - sometimes unknowing - involvement in the illegal drug trade.

My personal bottom line is that justice is imperfect, because people are imperfect. If I could trust all judges to sentence justly, I wouldn't need to specify penalties. The specification of penalties reflects legislative distrust of judges. Either way, we end up with unjust sentences.

John
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 5, 2016 - 01:00pm PT
John M said,

The crazy tax codes and overbearing rules we live with are out of whack in my opinion

What codes or rules to you specifically have a problem with?

I just listed one of my pet peeves: The mandatory minimum federal sentences. A judge CAN'T give them a lesser sentence. That is why the Hammonds are back in jail. Burning less than a quarter section of scrubland, that the federal biologist would probably approve of, merits a 5 year sentence?

I live in an area where ranchers like to periodically burn their pastures. Usually in late winter, after the cattle have grazed on it all that they can and are living on hay. The grass comes back beautifully in the spring. A lot of these fires jump a fence into a neighbor's pasture. They are usually glad about it, too. I've never heard of one suing another over a pasture fire. The cattle are so hard on the land that it NEEDS to be burned now and then, as it naturally was before we started putting every little prairie fire out. It is a part of natural management. The Nature Conservancy regularly burns grassland.

The mandatory minimums effect blacks far more than whites. The sentence for crack, a street drug, is far higher than for powdered cocaine.

Somebody check that for me, but I believe it is true.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 01:31pm PT
Here's our list of non-negotiable demands.


A leader of the small armed group that has been occupying a remote national wildlife refuge in Oregon said Tuesday that they will go home when a plan to turn over management of federal lands to locals is implemented.
...
... a rallying cry for the group calling itself Citizens for Constitutional Freedom, whose mostly male members said they want federal lands turned over to local authorities so people can use them free of U.S. oversight.

The Hammonds have distanced themselves from the protest group. Many locals don't want the activists here, fearing they may bring trouble.

Seeds of the dispute date back decades in the West, where the federal government owns about half of all land.

In the 1970s, Nevada and other states pushed for local control in what was known as the Sagebrush Rebellion. Supporters wanted more land for cattle grazing, mining and timber harvesting.

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/news/nation-world/national/article53065590.html#storylink=cpy


"Supporters wanted more land for cattle grazing, mining and timber harvesting" or in common parlance a hand-out.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Jan 5, 2016 - 01:34pm PT
Burning less than a quarter section of scrubland, that the federal biologist would probably approve of, merits a 5 year sentence?

I agree that it seems excessive. However, (and perhaps the fault is in the definition, these guys were found guilty of Arson. And not all Arson is the same.

But still if Banquo's reference is correct, the Hammonds are guilty of far worse by threatening federal employees who were just doing their job. The guys in Burns who work for BLM don't make the rules, they follow them. And yet if the reference is correct, then the Hammonds threatened not only the federal employees but their families as well.

It is hard to have sympathy for that.

golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Jan 5, 2016 - 01:36pm PT
A leader of the small armed group that has been occupying a remote national wildlife refuge in Oregon said Tuesday that they will go home when a plan to turn over management of federal lands to locals is implemented.

I have spent some time in that area and there are some pretty places. I want my chunk of federal land.IS that all it takes is a gun and a lobotomy?
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 5, 2016 - 01:40pm PT
yeah Arson to cover up the crime of poaching deer.
dirtbag

climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 01:41pm PT
Lobotomy, or a family tree that doesn't branch much.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Jan 5, 2016 - 01:44pm PT
I was curious and looked up the appeals court opinion on the sentence. The Hammonds agreed to a plea deal and pled guilty to some but not all of the charges. The district court refused to impose the mandatory minimum sentence under the 8th amendment. The appeals court reversed, finding that 5 years for arson is perfectly reasonable.

zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 01:48pm PT
^Did they plead guilty to arson?
John M

climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 01:48pm PT
Hey Base, I don't have any specific examples. More of a general experience. The tax code is so incredibly large. Plus codes that place burdens on businesses, such as the handicap parking space requirement that at one point in Sacramento was causing serious problems for small businesses. I don't know what the solution is because its common sense that is needed, but common sense isn't common. It also comes down to who is enforcing the rule. I had to redo a roof because I laid 15 weight felt overlapped by half. The code called for a total of 30 weight, which I achieved, but the code enforcer wanted 30 weight felt. It just seemed overbearing to me. Somehow we need to get to a point where things aren't overbearing.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 5, 2016 - 01:50pm PT
Nah. The biggest moochers are people who get virtually free water from any federal water project.

That raises government apologetics to an art form.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jan 5, 2016 - 01:54pm PT
If they die during yeehawd they get to sleep with 72 cousins.

Oh. I thought if they were martyred they went to the giant ranch in the sky where they would get 47,000 acres of virgin land subsided by Federal tax payers...
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 5, 2016 - 02:30pm PT
I think when people discuss what the law is, we should look at the actual statute, so people don't get sidetracked with discussions about discretion and sentencing commissions. So here is the law an elected Congress passed in 1996 and what a jury of their peers convicted them of.


110 STAT. 1298 PUBLIC LAW 104–132—APR. 24, 1996

SEC. 708. ENHANCED PENALTIES FOR USE OF EXPLOSIVES OR ARSON CRIMES.
(a) IN GENERAL.—Section 844 of title 18, United States Code, is amended—
(1) in subsection (e), by striking ‘‘five’’ and inserting ‘‘10’’;
(2) by amending subsection (f) to read as follows:
‘‘(f)(1) Whoever maliciously damages or destroys, or attempts to damage or destroy, by means of fire or an explosive, any building, vehicle, or other personal or real property in whole or in part owned or possessed by, or leased to, the United States, or any department or agency thereof, shall be imprisoned for not less than 5 years and not more than 20 years, fined under this title,
or both.
‘‘(2) Whoever engages in conduct prohibited by this subsection,
and as a result of such conduct, directly or proximately causes personal injury or creates a substantial risk of injury to any person, including any public safety officer performing duties, shall be imprisoned for not less than 7 years and not more than 40 years, fined under this title, or both.
‘‘(3) Whoever engages in conduct prohibited by this subsection, and as a result of such conduct directly or proximately causes the death of any person, including any public safety officer perform- ing duties, shall be subject to the death penalty, or imprisoned for not less than 20 years or for life, fined under this title, or both.’’;

Since their sentence is five years, that's the minimum anywhere in the statute.

There was testimony that the fires endangered fire fighter camping on a nearby butte. I have no idea if the Feds sought a 7 year minimum under the statute for section (2).

Also note it doesn't matter where the fire was started or that there be actual real damage, only that there be malicious intent and it be by means of fire or explosives.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2016 - 02:38pm PT
On its face 5 years seems excessive for the fire. However these people have a history of breaking the law. Furthermore one fires was set to hide evidence of the slaughter of deer, at least 7 died, More limped off.

I could probably agree that the sentence might have been on the harsh side. Would be funny if Obama commuted their sentence, that would take the wind out of the nutters sails. Of course they would squawk that it took too long. Obama could have singlehandedly cured cancer and the nutters would cry foul.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 5, 2016 - 02:39pm PT
Mandatory minimums suck. But then so do the Bundy crew...
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Jan 5, 2016 - 02:53pm PT
http://www.oregonlive.com/geek/2016/01/best_oregon_militia_snacks_pol.html#incart_river_home


Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 5, 2016 - 02:58pm PT
Mandatory minimums suck. But then so do the Bundy crew...

Mandatory minimums have always sucked and were out of proportion to crimes.
Congress wrote them to take away the discretion for leniency on purpose.

People have gotten huge drug possession sentences for a joint or two.

Why is this flaw in the system only though of now?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 5, 2016 - 03:01pm PT
Why is this flaw in the system only though[t] of now?

It wasn't. The Daily Signal (an organ of the very conservative Heritage Foundation) has been a strong supporter of reducing and rationalizing sentences for drug possession, and has actually praised the Obama administration for supporting this.

John
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2016 - 03:09pm PT
The right wing jumped on the bandwagon only after they realized that the decades old tough on crime campaign was a complete failure and was costing us billions. They are trying to shut the barn door after the horses have already bolted, and after their cronies made billions.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jan 5, 2016 - 03:28pm PT
The right wing jumped on the bandwagon only after they realized that the decades old tough on crime campaign was a complete failure and was costing us billions. They are trying to shut the barn door after the horses have already bolted, and after their cronies made billions.

You got it backwards, the US crazy incarceration system is as much a union thing (left wing) as anything else.
Check out what the California Correctional Peace Officers Association has been up.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2016 - 03:46pm PT
the US crazy incarceration system is as much a union thing (left wing) as anything else.
Check out what the California Correctional Peace Officers Association has been up.

The prisons guards got their noses up as many Republican arses as Democratic. It is not at all a political issue, it is a money issue.

Good article from 2013

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/09/california-prison-guards_n_3894490.html
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 5, 2016 - 03:50pm PT
The first manatory minimums were for marijuana possession under the Boggs act in the 1950's

Here are some mandatory minimum sentences imposed.

People sentenced to mandatory sentences Edit

Weldon Angelos – 55 years for possessing a handgun while he sold $350 worth of marijuana to a police informant on three separate occasions
Leandro Andrade – 50 years without parole for theft of nine video tapes
Morton Berger – 200 years without probation, parole or pardon for twenty counts of sexual exploitation of a minor; each count represented a separate child pornography image he had possessed
Genarlow Wilson – 10 years for aggravated child molestation; released in 2007 after serving four years because the courts decided his sentence was disproportionate to the actual facts of the crime
Chantal McCorkle – 24 years for fraud and conspiracy to commit fraud; sentence subsequently reduced to 18 years on appeal
Richard Paey – 25 years for 15 counts of drug trafficking and other charges including fraud; granted a pardon in 2007 after serving three and a half years due to the circumstances of his drug use
Timothy L. Tyler - Life in prison for possessing 13 sheets of LSD.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Jan 5, 2016 - 04:50pm PT
If I were king for a day I would put the following plan into place:
1. Let them stew.
2. This week cut off all incoming and outgoing traffic. I think there are only two roads. place barricades that offer no cover for future shooters.
3. Place feds in armored cars perhaps 200-300 yds out from barricades.
4. Cut off all power, jam and or stop all communications, but tell them first how things are going to go down.
5. The "SFB patriots" can surrender and drop their arms at the barricade where they will be covered by snipers. If they dont drop their weapons then they will be fired upon.
6. Maintain roving patrols in the unlikely event that these yahoos try and cover the barren ground and not come out from the roads.
7. Eventually, they will come out. To expedite them you can always send in a robotic car blasting loud rap music at the mmofo's.

If there are no arrests made for this then our government will have stooped to a new low by giving them preferential treatment over all the poor (mostly) minorities that have been killed by LEO with less justification than these guys.

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 5, 2016 - 05:25pm PT
Eventually, they will come out. To expedite them you can always send in a robotic car blasting loud rap music at the mmofo's.

Forget rap music. A few accordions should do the trick. I still don't see why you're so anxious to spend money when you already have a self-sustaining prison in place.

John
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 5, 2016 - 05:29pm PT
Good point John. And so long as they go from their chosen prison cell to one with real bars I'm pretty sure all of America will be happy. At those that are not Wal-martyr's.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jan 5, 2016 - 05:31pm PT
If they pulled this crap in town instead of out in the boonies they would be just as dead as all those white bikers the cops shot in texas.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jan 5, 2016 - 05:32pm PT
I was dissapointed that none of them got charged after the bundy standoff.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Jan 5, 2016 - 05:36pm PT
Yes
Let our government (who represents US), barricade those knotheads
in the refuge. All around it. No in, no out for them.
When they run out of twinkies and soda, they'll come crying to
negotiate.

Then they should be imprisoned and have the keys thrown away.
They can work their debts off making license plates for the states.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 5, 2016 - 05:38pm PT
tradman that was perfect.

Steve - negotiate? They come out with their hands up. Period.

over/under on how long that takes once they are out of power (and can no longer charge cell phones, communicate, etc.)?

Nice amount of snow on the way. At least they will have water.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 5, 2016 - 05:42pm PT

Forget rap music. A few accordions should do the trick

Excellent idea! Put this on a loop full blast. I'd give them 1 and a half hours. Tops.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jan 5, 2016 - 05:50pm PT
In some urban areas they figured out that playing classical music was a non confrontational way to keep kids from loitering next to your establishment.

funny how down in texas a whole crapload of bikers got shot and then there was total silence on who shot who. half a year later they admit that a bunch of them were shot with AR15's that the cops were carrying.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 5, 2016 - 05:51pm PT
now that i think about it turning off the power is a bad idea. at least trickle enough in so they can charge. how else will they see all the ridicule they so richly deserve.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 05:54pm PT
I'm not sensing much sympathy here.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 05:55pm PT
Whoa that's a righteous accordion solo.

You really want to get them to move on. Set up loudspeakers and broadcast locker and cosmic reading the ST forum to them 24 hours a day.

Starting with this thread and moving on to:

{insert your favorites here}




nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 5, 2016 - 06:02pm PT
I'm not sensing much sympathy here.

where is Rong when you need him most?

LOL. I almost feel sorry for him. almost.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2016 - 06:21pm PT
A couple of hours of the Hammond organ will make them want to gouge their ears out. I am not talking about the Allman Bros or Deep Purple


[Click to View YouTube Video]
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 5, 2016 - 06:31pm PT
It's refreshing to see so many of you on The Left being in favor of violence, torture, and mass incarceration.
Norton

Social climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 06:32pm PT


where is Rong when you need him most?

LOL. I almost feel sorry for him. almost.


Rong is now TheMaster

And just started another puke guns/hate the President thread
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 06:35pm PT
Ahhh. That makes so much sense.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 5, 2016 - 06:35pm PT
The Supreme court would rule this cruel and unusual punishment.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 5, 2016 - 06:43pm PT
And just started another puke guns/hate the President thread

huh?

omg I love greasemonkey. I had no idea that Wal-martyr was even still on this forum. Again.
F

climber
away from the ground
Jan 5, 2016 - 06:46pm PT
The last 20 posts are f ucking awesome. Minus Chaz.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 5, 2016 - 07:10pm PT
It's refreshing to see so many of you on The Left being in favor of violence, torture, and mass incarceration.

Seems like all the threats are coming from the yeehawdists. C'mon, threatening to wrap a kid in barbed wire and throw him down a well because his dad works at a wildlife refuge?
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 5, 2016 - 07:17pm PT
The left are violent on this one? My goodness. the Ridicule is f*#king priceless. Wal-martyr's makes me laugh so hard my stomach muscles hurt.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Jan 5, 2016 - 07:42pm PT
It's refreshing to see so many of you on The Left being in favor of violence, torture, and mass incarceration.

Well Chaz, I don't consider myself right or left, I consider myself to be an American.

And right now I fail to understand how a bunch of rednecks with guns get more consideration than a 12 year old black kid with a toy gun who LEO killed. Or another black guy who was selling single f*#king cigarettes and gets choked to death.

If you can explain the finer points of equal justice to me I am all ears.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:03pm PT
Golsen writes:

"If you can explain the finer points of equal justice to me I am all ears."



Equal justice may be a tough thing for a practitioner of race based selective outrage to grasp.

Brian Beaird. You don't know who that is. Do you?

Noel Aguilar. You don't know who that is either.

How about Kelly Thomas? Do you know who he is?

But you know Michael Brown. And Tamir Rice. And Eric Garner.

Aguilar, Thomas, and Beaird are West Coast guys - like yourself - while Rice, Brown, and Garner lived on the other side of the country.

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:08pm PT
so some white guys got shot by cops too. still does not explain why rednecks with guns get off. the f*#ks in nevada were let lose after aiming fire arms at federal agents, do you support that chaz?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:11pm PT
Brian Beaird had led police on a high speed chase for an hour, driving his silver Corvette the wrong way down several streets, running traffic lights and wildly weaving between lanes when the pursuit ended with Beaird plowing into another car.

while the cops might have been over zealous, driving the wrong way on a high speed chase is pretty f*#king dangerous. he could have killed someone.

nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:11pm PT
Hawkeye +1
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:14pm PT
Noel Aguilar was pinned when an L.A. County sheriff’s deputy pumped three shots into his back. The deputy thought Aguilar shot him, but it was his partner.
“You f*#king move, I’m going to kill you, bitch!”

The menacing order was made by Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Deputy Jose Ruiz as he and his partner, Deputy Albert Murad, struggled to pin down and allegedly disarm Noel Aguilar. Ruiz backed up the threat by putting his pistol to Aguilar’s head.


But the 23-year-old construction worker, who had a fiancée at home and a baby girl on the way, didn’t heed the words.

He resisted. And he paid for it with his life.

That’s clearly seen in a video shot by an anonymous witness that was released on Friday to accompany a federal civil lawsuit filed by Aguilar’s family attorney accusing both Los Angeles Sheriff’s Department deputies of starting a “shooting spree” and using “excessive force” when they “physically abused, then shot and killed” Aguilar.

while i dont condone the cops shooting this dude, why did he resist? WTF is wrong with people?
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:19pm PT
Noel Aguilar. You don't know who that is either.

I know enough to know its a Hispanic surname. That's your best shot?




A disturbing video emerged Friday showing two Los Angeles sheriff’s deputies killing a man after they had chased him for riding a bicycle while wearing headphones.

The incident took place more than a year ago with the Los Angeles Sheriff’s Department initially telling the media that they shot and killed 23-year-old Noel Aguilar, a “known gang member,” after he pulled out a gun and shot a deputy.

But now a video shows the two deputies struggling to arrest Aguilar when one deputy pulls out his gun and shoots the second deputy before placing his gun back into its holster, then placing the blame on Aguilar.

“Where’s the gun?” Los Angeles sheriff’s deputy Jose Ruiz asked Aguilar seconds after his partner announced he had been shot.

“I don’t have any,” Aguilar said.

“I’ve been shot,” yelled Albert Murade for the second time.

“I didn’t shoot nobody,” responded Aguilar.

“I got shot in the stomach,” Murade continued.

“I didn’t shoot nobody,” Aguilar insisted.

Ruiz then pulled his gun back out and pointed it at Aguilar in an obvious attempt to shut him up.

“C’mon man, why you pulling a gun on me,” Aguilar asked.

Ruiz shoots him in the stomach, prompting Murade, who is already angry at having been shot, to fire three bullets into Aguilar’s back.

That sparks angry shouts of protest from witnesses, in English and in Spanish, saying Aguilar did nothing illegal.

Hispanics get shot to death for wearing headphones and riding a bike in LA.
grover

climber
Castlegar BC
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:25pm PT
Flush them out with Twitty.
[Click to View YouTube Video]

If that doesn't work zbrown had a good idea as well.


golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:29pm PT
Equal justice may be a tough thing for a practitioner of race based selective outrage to grasp.

I really do not understand your comment about race based selective outrage.

I am outraged that gunmen in NV at that last Bundy debacle were not apprehended. I am outraged that people in urban areas who are much less risk to the public have been killed by LEO's. Their race is only a factor given that most of the time it is minorities that bear the brunt of injustice.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:54pm PT
Kelly Thomas was a homeless white guy beaten to death by Fullerton cops. They beat him because they had nothing better to do.
jonnyrig

climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 10:14pm PT
http://godfatherpolitics.com/19513/time-takes-cop-identify-toy-gun-v-real-gun-long-enough-get-killed/


But then again...

Ultimately, it all boils down to the same old kinds of arguments:
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 5, 2016 - 10:30pm PT
News from #MealTeamSix


http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/ammon_bundy_his_history_and_a.html

It looks like one of the 'things behind the scenes' is blocking access.

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2016 - 11:09pm PT
GoFundMe page to send snacks to the Hatriots. Word is they really like dicks. They can eat them or suck on them

https://www.gofundme.com/2nhmdbph

Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jan 5, 2016 - 11:15pm PT
Nice FUPA Bubba. Or does he have FUPA Armor?

(Fatty Upper Pubic Area)
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 5, 2016 - 11:51pm PT
Get ready for some frozen Bundy buns

From the diaries. Susan

Federal authorities have now made the decision to cut off power to the wildlife refuge center near Burns, Ore., occupied by the self-styled “militia” yahoos. According to a story in the Guardian, an unnamed federal official said authorities are planning to shut off the electricity to the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in eastern Oregon occupied by the Bundy bunch and their heavily armed cohorts.

About damn time.

“It’s in the middle of nowhere,” said the official, who is based in Washington, DC, and has knowledge of the planned response to the militia. “And it’s flat-ass cold up there.”

The Bundy bunch, roughly a dozen out-of-state, anti-government “militia” types, joined a protest in favor of two ranchers now serving a five-year sentence for arson, Dwight and Steven Hammond, but went further than the local protest when they took over the closed facility. And they’re about to get colder and lonelier.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/1/5/1466323/-Get-ready-for-some-frozen-Bundy-buns
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jan 6, 2016 - 06:21am PT
Fox, where the militia tunes in for news..

Occupier Michael Stettler, who lives about 100 miles away in Christmas Valley, Ore., said the occupiers are spending most of their time fielding calls from the news media and watching Fox News.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/visitors-find-more-reporters-than-occupiers-at-oregon-site/2016/01/05/f804f13c-b407-11e5-a842-0feb51d1d124_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-more-top-stories_oregon1015p%3Ahomepage%2Fstory
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 6, 2016 - 06:37am PT
Hopefully they'll power down any nearby cell towers while they're at it.
couchmaster

climber
Jan 6, 2016 - 06:39am PT

HealyJ said: quote
"Hopefully they'll power down any nearby cell towers while they're at it."

^^^Not at all^^^, I suspect that there will be extra personal and multiple 3 alphabet agencies tracking whom calls whom etc etc I thought you know how the gov't worked? This will be a treasure trove of figuring out the interconnections of this group.

Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 6, 2016 - 06:43am PT
^^^^^^^ Oh yeah, that's critical. Because obviously they're organized, stealthy and sophisticated. <eyeroll>
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 6, 2016 - 06:51am PT
while i dont condone the cops shooting this dude, why did he resist? WTF is wrong with people?

After seeing the outcome, are you still confused about why he wanted to get away?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 6, 2016 - 06:57am PT
Couch, probably right, but given the inherently rube nature of the crew I don't know if it's much of a win balanced against giving them easy access to off-site media.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 6, 2016 - 07:49am PT
Aguilar

He resisted. And he paid for it with his life.

Has anyone seen the video? Did he resist?


Ask Rodney King, not the cops.

By definition, anyone who is shot or beaten by cops was resisting.



Lollie

Social climber
I'm Lolli.
Jan 6, 2016 - 09:46am PT
Why do you call them militia? They're criminals, according to your laws.

If they were anything but armed white men occupying federal property, wouldn't they be called terrorists? And shot to pieces by SWAT or any other letter combination authority?
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 6, 2016 - 10:20am PT
we don't. White Christian Domestic Terrorists.
Lollie

Social climber
I'm Lolli.
Jan 6, 2016 - 10:24am PT
Ok.
The caption says Armed Militia, so I thought maybe there was some problem at the National Wildlife Refuge, and the military was sent in. But it wasn't the military who were militia.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 6, 2016 - 10:55am PT
Here is the link to the Oregon militia.

http://www.oregon.gov/omd/pages/omd_history.aspx
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Jan 6, 2016 - 10:56am PT
I wonder what percentage of the occupiers are spies.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 6, 2016 - 11:01am PT
Although misguided and a more than a little strange, it seems incorrect to call the bundy clan "terrorists". They're not terrorizing anyone. They've clearly stated they don't want violence and haven't destroyed any property yet. Take a look on a map where they've 'camped'... Middle of nowhere...

Asshats guilty of trespassing? Perhaps... but anything else is a stretch so far.

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 6, 2016 - 11:09am PT
[quote]Here is the link to the Oregon militia.

http://www.oregon.gov/omd/pages/omd_history.aspx[/quote]

And it's NOT these clowns. There is only one guy from Oregon that I know positively about. Surely there are a few more, but one thing we know for sure is that many ARE NOT Oregonian.
ATS

climber
Mountain Project
Jan 6, 2016 - 11:11am PT
Good reply Fear
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 6, 2016 - 11:14am PT
Although misguided and a more than a little strange, it seems incorrect to call the bundy clan "terrorists". They're not terrorizing anyone.

Sorry. They meet the definition.

See-"Domestic terrorism" and "Federal Crime of Terrorism".

Definitions of Terrorism in the U.S. Code

18 U.S.C. § 2331 defines "international terrorism" and "domestic terrorism" for purposes of Chapter 113B of the Code, entitled "Terrorism”:

"International terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:

Involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
Appear to be intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
Occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S., or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to intimidate or coerce, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum.*

"Domestic terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:

Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and
Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.


18 U.S.C. § 2332b defines the term "federal crime of terrorism" as an offense that:

Is calculated to influence or affect the conduct of government by intimidation or coercion, or to retaliate against government conduct; and
Is a violation of one of several listed statutes, including § 930(c) (relating to killing or attempted killing during an attack on a federal facility with a dangerous weapon); and § 1114 (relating to killing or attempted killing of officers and employees of the U.S.).
* FISA defines "international terrorism" in a nearly identical way, replacing "primarily" outside the U.S. with "totally" outside the U.S. 50 U.S.C. § 1801(c).
dirtbag

climber
Jan 6, 2016 - 11:17am PT
It probably is terrorism under that definition, but from a less-legal viewpoint, they are really separatists/insurrectionists.

Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 6, 2016 - 11:26am PT
That would fall under the treason statutes.

Rebellion and Insurrection
Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 808; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, § 330016(1)(L), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2147.)

Advocating the Overthrow of the Government

Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government; or

Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or

Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

If two or more persons conspire to commit any offense named in this section, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

As used in this section, the terms “organizes” and “organize”, with respect to any society, group, or assembly of persons, include the recruiting of new members, the forming of new units, and the regrouping or expansion of existing clubs, classes, and other units of such society, group, or assembly of persons.

(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 808; July 24, 1956, ch. 678, § 2, 70 Stat. 623; Pub. L. 87–486, June 19, 1962, 76 Stat. 103; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, § 330016(1)(N), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2148.)
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 6, 2016 - 11:33am PT
I'm pretty sure that if you read deep enough into the text of any modern "laws" we're ALL felons.

One of the many reasons this event is even happening.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jan 6, 2016 - 11:34am PT
Although misguided and a more than a little strange, it seems incorrect to call the bundy clan "terrorists". They're not terrorizing anyone.

Well, I think it's all about semantics then. ISIS or Al Qaeda is not terrorizing anyone in the US.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 6, 2016 - 11:36am PT

Jan 6, 2016 - 11:33am PT
I'm pretty sure that if you read deep enough into the text of any modern "laws" we're ALL felons.

One of the many reasons this event is even happening.

Yeah, treason, insurrection, and terrorism are real esoteric concepts

Right now they are terrorists. The first bullet they fire, they have committed treason.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 6, 2016 - 11:43am PT
By definition then most Fox News watchers and commenters are guilty of Treason.

Common sense would seem to require actual violence to qualify for "Terrorism".

Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 6, 2016 - 11:47am PT
No. Violence or advocating violence against the government is treason. The threshold for domestic terrorism is coercion (against anyone).

They aren't exclusive definitions.

If FOX is advocating violent overthrow they are committing treason.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 6, 2016 - 11:54am PT
Hang on then, I've got a class of domestic terrorists to teach.....
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 6, 2016 - 11:55am PT
Let me know how it works out.

Take names.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Jan 6, 2016 - 12:24pm PT

After seeing the outcome, are you still confused about why he wanted to get away?

Escopeta,

there is absolutely no doubt that there are bad cops. Just like there are bad people.

But use some common sense, cops are fairly low paid , under trained humans with guns, and some of them are bad. Also, they are more than likely to get away with violence, so why egg them on? So, you can either egg them on when stopped for a traffic violation, run like hell and hope for the best, or you can do your best to deal with them with respect and not offer any threats. You see, we can get all pissed off when they shoot and kill someone needlessly, but by then its too late. You've been shot and killed. So, if you have nothing to run from why run? And if you do have something to run from, well, run fast.

I am in no way saying that shooting the guy was OK, its not. But its too late for him and I bet the cops realize they f*#ked up too.

But you are missing the entire point. The point is that the feds let the f*#kers in NV go and they were clearly more of a threat as they aimed guns at federal agents. It is pretty apparent that this has fueled the fire for the f*#ks out at Malheur. Meanwhile, other Law enforcement agencies are killing lots of guys every week for far less. It is that injustice that people should be pissed off about.

golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Jan 6, 2016 - 12:28pm PT
"Domestic terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:

Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and
Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.

There have been reports that local law enforcement as well as local federal employees and their families have been threatened with violence and intimidated by supporters of these clowns as well ass by the ranchers as far back as the 90's. Sounds like intimidation to me. And if they are not trying to influence by breaking the law, then what the hell are they doing? This would appear to fall into the definition.

StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jan 6, 2016 - 12:36pm PT
What kind of moron occupies a Wildlife Refuge? The kind that hides behind their wives and children after they start a fight...
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 6, 2016 - 12:44pm PT
Follow the money. Laws like this came about from big prison business funding the elections of as#@&%es

I don't think that this was the case here, but I agree that it is a terrible problem. We have people who were caught with a few ounces of weed spending more time in prison than rapists.

Mandatory minimums were enacted because there was a push that judges were letting people off with light sentences. Perhaps that happened, but now the mandatory minimums are way out of line.

I have no sympathy for the actions of the Hammonds and others in Harney County regarding their threats to the BLM employees. I've hear northern Nevada is much the same. Those people are threatened all of the time.

You just can't have it. It isn't in any way legal (or moral) behavior. I really have no sympathy for the Bundy and militia contingent. They have a twisted ultra right view of government, and it is all out there to read if you want to learn about this situation and the earlier one at the Bundy Ranch.

This wasn't the case with the Hammonds. They have a huge ranch of about 10,000 acres. They also have 20,000 acres of grazing rights. Federal fees for grazing are a joke. The federal grazing fee for 2015 is $1.69 per AUM, as compared to the 2014 fee of $1.35. Oregon charges over 5 bucks per AMU per month on state land, and private grazing leases run upwards of 20 bucks per month. The BLM allows grazers to use the land for a pittance. So the Hammonds have benefitted greatly from this arrangement.

They have had their differences here and there with the BLM, but they handled it in court. The difference between the Hammonds and the Bundy's couldn't be more stark.

I've already said that the 5 year mandatory minimum sentences were too harsh, as did the judge who handed down the sentence. Mandatory minimums take away appropriate punishment from judges, and it was intended to, back when they became popular in fighting inner city crime.

I sympathize with the Hammond family to a degree, but I have no sympathy for the Bundys and their militia brethren. If they think that they are going to hold this facility "for years" as they have said, then the law needs to get its act together.

They also need to punish those who pointed weapons at federal officers and employees at the dust up in Nevada. I would guess that the feds are gathering evidence to do just that.

This is different from a bunch of students taking over an administration building to protest Vietnam. These guys don't believe in federal authority. Period.

As usual, wiki has a great page about their political beliefs:

1) He is a member of the Sovereign Citizen movement, which is more whacko than Tim McVeigh.

From Wiki:

According to The Guardian, Bundy told his supporters that "We definitely don't recognize [the BLM director's] jurisdiction or authority, his arresting power or policing power in any way," and in interviews he used the language of the sovereign citizen movement, thereby gaining the support of members of the Oath Keepers, the White Mountain Militia and the Praetorian Guard militias.[35] The movement is considered by the FBI as the nation’s top domestic terrorism threat

Does anyone know what laws are being broken by the Bundy and Militiamen who are occupying the wildlife refuge building by arms?

If I took my trusty .22 and kicked everyone out of my public library, I would be shortly visited by a SWAT team, even though I live in an open carry state. The library is a gun free facility, though.

It is this that you should take away from all of this:

The movement is considered by the FBI as the nation’s top domestic terrorism threat
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 6, 2016 - 12:55pm PT
There have been reports that local law enforcement as well as local federal employees and their families have been threatened with violence and intimidated by supporters of these clowns as well ass by the ranchers as far back as the 90's. Sounds like intimidation to me. And if they are not trying to influence by breaking the law, then what the hell are they doing? This would appear to fall into the definition

There is a lot of info out there supporting this. They refuse to serve federal employees at businesses, they threaten the lives of their families on the phone, and in parts of Nevada, regularly have guns pointed at them while going down the road.

This has gotten out of hand. Most of the beef in the US is ranched east of the hundredth meridian. The western ranchers are subsidized by low grazing fees, and the land simply can't handle the cattle like they can in, say, Texas or Oklahoma. We graze them through the winter on winter wheat, we can grow hay. Bundy's ranch is in the middle of a desert.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jan 6, 2016 - 01:40pm PT
I bet she did this to piss off the bundys.

http://www.blm.gov/nv/st/en.html
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Jan 6, 2016 - 01:47pm PT
I sympathize with the Hammond family to a degree, but I have no sympathy for the Bundys and their militia brethren. If they think that they are going to hold this facility "for years" as they have said, then the law needs to get its act together.

They also need to punish those who pointed weapons at federal officers and employees at the dust up in Nevada. I would guess that the feds are gathering evidence to do just that.

This is different from a bunch of students taking over an administration building to protest Vietnam. These guys don't believe in federal authority. Period.

Yep. If the feds do nothing this time it will escalate. Some of those guys are nut jobs, and I bet they are already getting nervous. My guess is that some of them want no violence and some are getting itchy already.

It will be good to let them stew for a while, but dont let the f*#kers get away.
MattB

Trad climber
Tucson
Jan 6, 2016 - 02:02pm PT
I hope the feds are using this to root out all the other wannabe martyrs. Let them stay all winter. Then arrest or kill them, if nothing dramatic happens before.

WBraun

climber
Jan 6, 2016 - 02:10pm PT
I found this, some interesting stuff .....

http://www.libertyroundtable.com/2016/01/06/oregon-false-flag/
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 6, 2016 - 02:16pm PT
YingHah.

He had me right at:

Col. Christian J. Yingling

[Commanding Officer
Pennsylvania Light Foot Militia 129th Battalion
Laurel Highlands Ghost company]

Apparently, as smart as he claims to be, he has not yet heard of NSA.

Has anyone checked the odds in Las Vegas that he will be in jail before the year is out?

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 6, 2016 - 02:17pm PT
But use some common sense, cops are fairly low paid , under trained humans with guns, and some of them are bad. Also, they are more than likely to get away with violence, so why egg them on? So, you can either egg them on when stopped for a traffic violation, run like hell and hope for the best, or you can do your best to deal with them with respect and not offer any threats. You see, we can get all pissed off when they shoot and kill someone needlessly, but by then its too late. You've been shot and killed. So, if you have nothing to run from why run? And if you do have something to run from, well, run fast.

8 LAPD patrol officers' pay tops $200,000 a year - latimes
articles.latimes.com/2007/mar/31/local/me-overtime31

Many of these people are mentally ill or intoxicated, It is not reasonable to hold them to a high degree of reasonableness. One of the tactics that police officers learn, is if they want to administer a beat-down, keep repeating the phrase "stop resisting!" in case there is any video or audio recording. That alone will mitigate any actual evidence that the person was not cooperative/unresisting/unconscious, and the officer will almost certainly get a pass on what they've done.
dirtbag

climber
Jan 6, 2016 - 02:17pm PT
By Col. Christian J. Yingling

Ok …Everybody… please gather around and listen to what I am about to say..Then either shut your mouth, or share this far and wide. If you have ANY faith in me as a leader you will heed what I am about to say. If not..I want nothing to do with you. simple as that

That guy is bonkers.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 6, 2016 - 02:21pm PT
I found this, some interesting stuff .....

Do you often find interesting stuff in the trash? (Because that there is some serious intellectual dumpster diving)
WBraun

climber
Jan 6, 2016 - 02:30pm PT
I don't give a sh!t whether he's bonkers, it comes form thrash or what ever you loons think and project.

The guy claims the feds are getting ready to squash these guys in Oregon.

There was a some interesting things he had to say about what so called really happened in Nevada.

Whether any of it is true or not I don't give a sh!t as I just read it for the hell of it.

Gawd damn are you people so fuking self righteous about yourselves ....
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 6, 2016 - 02:31pm PT
And you sir, are a crankloon.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 6, 2016 - 02:35pm PT
Anybody see Trevor Noah?

These nutjobs have taken over a remote frigid federal building and are making a national appeal for all the other nutjobs to come and join them, like some kind of reverse GETMO that rounds itself up.



Win/win.
John M

climber
Jan 6, 2016 - 02:37pm PT
I found it kind of interesting. He makes the point of why weren't some of those guys arrested at the Bundy ranch, he names names, when others have been arrested after having made threats. I have been wondering that too. He points to a Schuyler Barbeau for having been arrested and in prison for threats made against the Feds.

I am not saying that that site is legit or this guy is legit. Just curiosity on my part.

Not entirely sure I want to try to unwind this stuff. Just found it interesting.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 6, 2016 - 02:37pm PT
^I disagree about dismissing him outright. The guy was apparently on site in Nevada and therefore provides some unique insights into how this "movement' functions as well as the thought processes of one movement cowboy.



If Abbie Hoffman put him up to this I reserve the right to retract.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 6, 2016 - 03:04pm PT
He may have been there, but 'false flag'? Crankloon.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 6, 2016 - 03:20pm PT
The Sheriff is holding a community meeting at 4 pm today, that should be interesting.

Live Feed
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Ammon Bundy sent the sheriff a little love note



Bundy Ranch
2 hrs ·
January 5, 2016
Dear Sheriff David Ward
Harney County, Oregon
In light of the ongoing protest as a result of the oppression of many in your county, I would like to share my thoughts and offer my assistance regarding your involvement in this matter.
You put yourself up and presented yourself to run for the elected office of Sheriff, You have been elected by the good citizens of Harney County and made an oath to them to protect their Lives, Liberties and Property. As a sworn protector, You promised them that you would protect them from enemies both foreign and domestic. You promised and assured them that you would support and defend the U.S. Constitution. You solemnly swore and entered into an oath before God and the people that you would uphold these promises.
Sheriff, your oath was not made to the federal government nor any of their corporate entities such as the BLM or Forest Service etc. This oath was quite the contrary that created a Sacred duty, to serve, protect and defend every single one of your citizens like a hen protects her chicks against all threats. Don’t forget who your boss is, we the people of Harney County. For the sheriff to allow anyone or anything to violate the rights of his people, We The People, is a dereliction of duty of the highest order.
I must ask, what happened to the protection the Hammond family did not receive? Where were you when a foreign entity not having any constitutional power, authority and jurisdiction within your county abused your citizens? Imprisoned them, restricted them from using there resources to make a living, ruining their way of life and violating their customs and culture and charging them with heavy fines. These were the people you swore before God and the people to protect. Why did you forsake them?
Have you taken sides with the Feds? Are you scared to do your duty? Are you ignorant to what your duties are? Are you scared of how the Feds may react if you actually perform your sworn duties? I would really like to know what your excuse is for not honoring your oath of office as Sheriff of Harney County.
In the wake of your abstanance you now have some very important decisions that need to be made very soon. It should not be a hard decision understanding your purpose of existence as stated in the oath you have taken. The choice is simple, A. to turn a blind eye against your people and continue to collaborate with the Feds, pushing their agenda to remain in power and control over the people and their resources and to continue participating with fear mongering tactics such as shutting down schools etc. and now participating in the new growing threat of violence by the Feds toward peaceful protesters. or B. Re-commit yourself to uphold and perform your duties to We The People of Harney County and utilize the protesters that have come to your peoples assistance and say simply, no to the Feds and rid your county of their presence and tyranny that they have spread across your County.
Understand that the protesters have peacefully assembled only to support you and your people who are and have been oppressed by Federal over reach. Understand that their assembly is a constitutional right and act. Understand that they do not intend any harm to anyone, they sincerely want to restore the rights, land and resources that belong to the people of Harney County who have pre-emptive rights to them and non other, especially any federal Corporation. Understand that Constitutionally it is impossible for the federal government to own or manage land outside the bounds and terms stated in art. 1 sec. 8 par.17 of the U.S. Constitution. Remember that governments were instituted among men & women for the security of the rights of the people and that when governments begin to abuse those rights and fail to secure them, it is up to non other than the people themselves to uphold those rights, it is their right, it is their duty to dispose of the tyrannical government infringing upon those rights. (see the Declaration of independence.)
This sheriff is why citizens all across this nation assemble at times for regress of grievance for the respective oppression to cease. For this reason the protesters have come to your county. They have come hoping for your blessing and support and to support you in the changes you will need to make. Remember that you have the authority to promote a positive and forthright outcome working with the people to create liberty and prosperity in your county. However you also have the ability to exercise your individual agency and abuse your office and power given you to continue your lawlessness. If you continue in this direction, I’m afraid you may have blood on your hands.
Sheriff, I respect the office that you hold and the awesome responsibilities that are your’s and pray that you may be given the strength to say simply no to the feds, rid them of your county, give back the lands and resources to the people whom they were taken from and ultimately restore prosperity and liberty in your county. I know that would be the right thing to do, I believe as a steward with the accountability to the people, God will be pleased with and uphold you.
I do not reside in Oregon but can be available at your request to help you in any way I can to restore the rights of the people of Harney County. Sincerely, your supporter.

Dave Bundy
Concerned American



skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Jan 6, 2016 - 03:23pm PT
Watching Trevor Noah yields some interesting stuff all right. His facts people really dig into things, and in this case came up with a book; "Where Land and Water Meet - A Western Landscape Transformed" written by Nancy Langston. Basically, her book is about management and mismanagement of water resources in and around the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, which was originally established in 1908.

Why is the Militia is there? Because the Federal Government just took the land from over 100 hard working families/ranches and incorporated these properties into already existing wildlife refuge. However, according to Langston's book, the gov bought the land from failing ranches in the 1930's and early 40's. Apparently the combination of drought and the depression had been hard on this area, and the federal government was hot to add to the ccc projects already active within the existing wildlife refuge boundaries.

So at this point I cannot verify Bundy's claim, and given that the local townspeople generally do NOT want these people around, I call bullshit on them. If they have a legit bone to pick with the gov, they need to bring that bone out into public view. Right now I'm not seeing it.

As to the two ranchers who are going away for 5 years....I know it's the law, but stupid in my opinion. They should (as well as pay the fine) do years of public service; such as educating others on how to properly manage invasive species in their area. We shouldn't be spending money to incarcerate them.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 6, 2016 - 03:33pm PT
Because the Federal Government just took the land from over 100 hard working families/ranches and incorporated these properties into already existing wildlife refuge.

So, basically, the claim is that 60 years after stealing the land from the Paiutes, the guberment turned around and stole it from the people they'd originally stolen it for. Bummer, but if it were going to be turned over to anyone - in deed or in management capacity - it should be to the Paiutes, not 'locals'.
couchmaster

climber
Jan 6, 2016 - 03:33pm PT

Of course the government has plants there:
"Now throughout the situation Payne made repeated threats to law enforcement on NATIONAL media. There’s VIDEO of him doing this..its not hard to find. Yet oddly enough with all that evidence he was never charged with anything during or after the standoff. Does that seem ODD to anyone but me? (not if you’re a paid provocateur)"


They do it all the time. Remember the 2 guys inciting violence and egging on the occupy movement folks? It wasn't that long ago. Turns out....several occupies challenged 2 aggressive occupy guys and as the photo shows below guy on the ground had pulled off the cops hood and the 2 cops all but outed themselves. The interesting part, was that by all eyewitness accounts, they were the most aggressive/violent of the group, loudly calling for attacks and violence: and it was a large group.


Do some research, it's a common thing.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 6, 2016 - 03:35pm PT
The Occupy Movement was / is big enough for the odd plant or two. These clowns - too small, too incestuous, and it would be of little value.
couchmaster

climber
Jan 6, 2016 - 03:52pm PT
I don't know why you think the police would infiltrate peaceful environmentalists all the time and also the occupy folks (who mostly called for non-violence) but they would not do the same for a bunch of gun totin self-styled anti-government "revolutionary" types.

Interesting links:

http://www.motherjones.com/media/2014/05/search-revolution-john-anderson-occupy-austin-photos-book

http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-things-i-learned-infiltrating-armed-militia-group/

http://wikiworldorder.org/category/police-state/



Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 6, 2016 - 04:14pm PT
This is how the BLM and Dept of Interior handled elderly unarmed Shoshones refusing to cede their treaty rights to ancestral lands.

The Dann sisters were attacked and detained numerous times over several decades sometimes with police and sometimes by mob and constantly monitored. Their horses and cattle were driven off to die of starvation. The Danns were not millionaires like the Bundys.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Dann_and_Carrie_Dann
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 6, 2016 - 04:45pm PT
The feds stole the land from 100 hard working people?

What about the Paiute reservation that was reduced from 1.5 million acres to 760 acres.
Talk about historic ownership and broken promises!
Team Cowliphate needs to get on the right bus!!
mynameismud

climber
backseat
Jan 6, 2016 - 04:47pm PT
They just need to do an emergency Burning Man gathering. It would be incredibly entertaining and resolve most of the issues.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 6, 2016 - 04:48pm PT
Of course there are plants at the location. How else you gonna feed the cows?

August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jan 6, 2016 - 04:49pm PT
By [that] definition then most Fox News watchers and commenters are guilty of Treason.

And your point is???
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 6, 2016 - 04:53pm PT
Where were you when a foreign entity not having any constitutional power, authority and jurisdiction within your county abused your citizens?

F*#k these people. How inbreed are they? Wouldn't surprise me if the Bundy kids f*#ked their own mother.

As un-american as it gets. the pieces of sh#t better serve long jail time.


This doesn't need to end violently but why does part of me wish it would?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 6, 2016 - 05:01pm PT
These nutjobs have taken over a remote frigid federal building and are making a national appeal for all the other nutjobs to come and join them, like some kind of reverse GETMO that rounds itself up.



Win/win.

I've been saying the same thing ad nauseum. It's not only self-arresting, it's self-sustaining. What's not to like?

I must admit that I have been critical of the publicity the idiots are generating, but I wasn't thinking clearly. The publicity draws future inmates.

Brilliant!

John
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jan 6, 2016 - 05:53pm PT
This thread stinks like an USFS outhouse in a heatwave. Please control the voluminous discharge from your over active spincters.

Give it a break and you'll do your small part in the disappearance of the Malheur morons.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 6, 2016 - 07:25pm PT
It was mentioned upthread that Ammon Bundy claims to be real-tight with God. Here's a quote that ought to scare any but the most crankaloon among us.

"I clearly understood that the Lord was not pleased with what was happening to the Hammonds," Ammon said. "It was exactly like it was happening at the Bundy ranch, when we were guided and directed as to what we were supposed to do ... And I ask you now to come participate in this wonderful thing in Harney County that the Lord is about to accomplish."

I always find it scary when a terrorist claims that God talks with him.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/ammon_bundy_his_history_and_a.html
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 6, 2016 - 08:20pm PT
Lot's of people claim to speak with their imaginary friends. So what? There's this dude in a funny pointy hat over in Italy who claims to have a direct line. And people give him billions.

Actions are what matter. I haven't seen much action from the campers. They seem pretty short on ideas too. There's plenty of truly heinous gov't actions they could be protesting but they chose to winter camp in an abandoned bird sanctuary. There's the trespassing thing sure... as long as they pick up their trash when they leave, who gives a f#$#$..?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Jan 6, 2016 - 09:16pm PT
What about the pagan compound in choss creek where the inhabitants worship the inukshuk..?
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Jan 6, 2016 - 09:38pm PT
I always find it scary when a terrorist claims that God talks with him.

allahu akbar!

The knuckleheads at Malheur have a lot in common with other terrorist organizations.

Mtnmun

Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
Jan 6, 2016 - 09:48pm PT
This back story on the situation I found very interesting.

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/

golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Jan 6, 2016 - 09:51pm PT
http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/06/us/native-tribe-blasts-oregon-takeover/

Burns, Oregon (CNN)The leaders of the Burns Paiute tribe have a message for the men and women who have taken over the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge outside Burns, Oregon: "Go home. We don't want you here."

The message came from several tribe members whose ancestors fought and died over portions of that land long before the ranchers and farmers had it, long before the federal government even existed.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 6, 2016 - 10:20pm PT
It was mentioned upthread that Ammon Bundy claims to be real-tight with God. Here's a quote that ought to scare any but the most crankaloon among us.

"I clearly understood that the Lord was not pleased with what was happening to the Hammonds," Ammon said. "It was exactly like it was happening at the Bundy ranch, when we were guided and directed as to what we were supposed to do ... And I ask you now to come participate in this wonderful thing in Harney County that the Lord is about to accomplish."

I always find it scary when a terrorist claims that God talks with him.

The Bundys and Finicum (#tarpman) are Mormon. Mormons have a history of using "prophecies" to justify all sorts of nonsense. Joe Smith had many, including polygamy, allegedly as an excuse to bang more women. At one point the church leadership almost forcibly castrated Smith, but the doctor fainted.

Elizabeth Smart fell under her kidnappers control because he told her he had a prophecy that she was to be his wife. John Krakauer's book Under The Banner Of Heaven delves into the church history, great book
TLP

climber
Jan 6, 2016 - 10:23pm PT
Base104, fire on rangeland in the arid intermountain region, including eastern Oregon, is a way different thing than it is in the short- or tall-grass prairie, but it is not simple at all. On the one hand, fire gets rid of juniper that otherwise can completely overtake sagebrush steppe (habitat for sage grouse); on the other hand, it can cause massive infestations of cheat grass which is damn poor for most wildlife or cattle. Likewise other weeds in the region. Depending on the details, a fire can be beneficial or really harmful and hard to restore. You can't make any guesses at all based on how things are in Oklahoma - or even in an ecologically different site right in eastern Oregon. That said, it seems like the issue isn't whether the fire was beneficial or not, but rather that there was a previous instance and warning that future burning could have consequences. Which it did.
MisterE

Gym climber
Small Town with a Big Back Yard
Jan 6, 2016 - 10:30pm PT
Who doesn't love a good obfuscation?
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 6, 2016 - 10:37pm PT
I'd love a good obfuscation if it wasn't for the fact that my feet are green.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 6, 2016 - 10:55pm PT
Why is the Militia is there? Because the Federal Government just took the land from over 100 hard working families/ranches and incorporated these properties into already existing wildlife refuge. However, according to Langston's book, the gov bought the land from failing ranches in the 1930's and early 40's. Apparently the combination of drought and the depression had been hard on this area, and the federal government was hot to add to the ccc projects already active within the existing wildlife refuge boundaries.
the government never set money aside to run the refuge between 1908 and 1934, so it was really a refuge without any funding or supervision.

What that version doesn't say is that the water and grazing sources were greatly depleted between 1908 and 1934, when the government bought what was left of the French-Glenn P-Ranch. That was property not even the Hammonds wanted. In 1934 a big piece of the lake was dry desert. They bought the biggest piece from Swift, then and still Agribusiness, not small ranchers. Swift sold because it was unprofitable. 1934 was the worst year of the depression.

There was a bit of a drought all over the West then ( it is currently in the fourth year of a drought), and between that, and the ranchers overgrazing and running too many cattle, the lake was so dry that you could walk out onto the lakebed. People camped on it. People chose federal land first to graze and overgraze, saving their own land for winter(they still do that if unchecked). One of the biggest operations there was Swift meats.
During that era it was the largest cattle region in the country.
So the land became basically worthless and ranches failed. The French Glenn cattle operation and then Swift, who bought the largest part of the P-Ranch just overused the resource.

It was only when the Feds had enough control of the watershed that they could build dams the lake came back, and everybody who was left benefited. If you recall, that was the era of the civilian conservation corps and the Feds were putting people all over the nation building stuff.

You can start reading on the P ranch, which sold land to the Hammonds, here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/P_Ranch

Another good read is how Pete French bought the land from the government and ran out small ranchers. He built dams to flood the region, then bought from the government at $1.25 and acre for marsh land, then drained it. He also fenced public land to keep other ranchers out. Just because you fence public land, that doesn't mean title conveys to you.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_French

The lake has a long history of competing land claims, but the history shows the Feds have controlled the area back to the 1940's, and the Supreme Court has rejected various competing claims ove the years. The Oregonian has a story on that.
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/supreme_court_already_ruled_th.html


And a description of the dry lake in 1930 is here: (page 14)
http://www.fws.gov/uploadedFiles/Region_1/NWRS/Zone_2/Malheur/Documents/MalheurNWR_FCCP_chapter1.pdf

French was apparently not well liked by the small rancher, so resentment for large operation of any sort is not new. Here's how he died.

http://gesswhoto.com/sheriff-harney4.html
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jan 7, 2016 - 05:57am PT
These guys are not much in the terror dept. i don't thing they even make the practice squad. fear nailed it. they have gone winter camping in the middle of west bumfck and done a lot of whineing. tha's about it so far.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 7, 2016 - 06:16am PT
There are numerous Muslims in this country who have been convicted on terror charges because undercover FBI agents took an otherwise incompetent moron who posted some garbage on the internet, suggested that they take action and then provided them with the means to commit those acts.

Here, a bunch of white guys with guns took over a government building for ideological reasons but hey, they look like me so let's chalk it up to youthful indiscretion, right?
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Jan 7, 2016 - 07:18am PT
Very interesting post Lorenzo. Thanks for putting that up. I started by giving them the benefit of the doubt and looking into their beef, then coming to the conclusion that (at least in this case) they are totally out to lunch for so many reasons.

Maybe I should send them this for supplies, huh? Never hurts to have more brains around...


zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 7, 2016 - 07:21am PT
A clear cut case of non-affluenza? "Show me duh money".



$20 Billion a year farm subsidies.


To this day, to be treated as a farmer in America doesn’t necessarily require you to grow any crops. According to the Government Accountability Office, between 2007 and 2011 Uncle Sam paid some $3m in subsidies to 2,300 farms where no crop of any sort was grown. Between 2008 and 2012, $10.6m was paid to farmers who had been dead for over a year. Such payments explain why Tom Vilsack, the agriculture secretary, is promoting a rule to attempt to crack down on payments to non-farming folk. But with crop prices now falling, taxpayers are braced to be fleeced again.


http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21643191-crop-prices-fall-farmers-grow-subsidies-instead-milking-taxpayers
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Jan 7, 2016 - 07:21am PT
This problem with ranchers is not new.

The feds (BLM, etc.) lease these lands to ranchers at bargain-basement prices. It's corporate welfare at its worst.

The ranchers start to believe that the land is "theirs" and starting acting like theses as#@&%es.

The feds are partly to blame - they cater to these dip shits.

Several decades ago, I was a member of an organization that attempted to lease federal ranch land through open bids - because the land was horribly abused by the ranchers and over-grazed. We were going to lease the land to let it rest and recover. But the feds ruled that only ranchers could bid on ranch land.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jan 7, 2016 - 07:50am PT
fedraly subsidizeing our food production is a no brainer. allowing thousands of people to scam the system sucks. Lots of so called gentelman farmers here in VT. rich semi retired from out of state. they move here, build massive homes and they get huge tax breaks by calling themselfs farmers. the best scam is to build a huge sugar house , tap 100 trees with your kids for fun every spring and sell 2k in syrup or sap. 2k is the majick number to get the Ag bennefits.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 7, 2016 - 08:14am PT
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jan 7, 2016 - 08:56am PT
if armed natives took over Fed buildings because they wanted their land back....


...they'd be dead, well, cuz...

Murica!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 7, 2016 - 09:02am PT
Hey, where'd our 1.5 million acre reservation go?

Can we have it back?



Harney County Paiutes, near Burns Oregon.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 7, 2016 - 09:16am PT
If you want to read more than a casual history of the expulsion of Paiutes from the Malheur region, the Paiutes have their own chronicle online.

http://www.burnspaiute-nsn.gov/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=37&Itemid=57

The links read chronologically from bottom (8) to top (1)

Also, a climbing trip report concerning NA-Ga the North Star.
http://www.burnspaiute-nsn.gov/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=55:why-the-north-star-stands-still&catid=35:legends&Itemid=59
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Jan 7, 2016 - 09:27am PT
If somebody posted this, I missed it. The view from Taiwan:

[Click to View YouTube Video]


http://youtu.be/sbjo0MVIxHg
Alpinista55

Mountain climber
Portland, OR
Jan 7, 2016 - 09:29am PT
Here is an article from the NYT that sums up the disparity between the myth of the "good ole days of western ranching" and the reality:

In Oregon, Myth Mixes With Anger: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/06/opinion/in-oregon-myth-mixes-with-anger.html
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Jan 7, 2016 - 09:38am PT
*
From Los Angles times, 1/7 2016
http://touch.latimes.com/#section/1780/article/p2p-85510351/
.......
The daily rhythm of life here has been interrupted, said resident after resident on Wednesday night. But Harney County Sheriff David Ward raised a more troubling issue. He said one of his wife’s tires had been “flattened,” and said someone followed his parents home.

“You don't come here and intimidate people. That's not how we live our lives in Harney County,” Ward said. “Our wives have a right not to be tailed home. Our pastors have a right to not be shouted at on the street.

"You don't get to threaten me because I disagree with you."

He delivered the last line to raucous applause, then asked for a show of hands: How many people want the occupiers to go home, he asked. At least three-quarters of the room raised their hands.

...............
Didn't Bundy state.. he would go home if the town didn't want them occupying the wildlife refuge ?
The native people also asked them to leave..
http://www.kgw.com/news/burns-tribe-says-armed-activists-desecrating-oregon-land/11701540

jonnyrig

climber
Jan 7, 2016 - 10:31am PT

Left Leaning Liberal Ladies
4 hrs · Elgin, IL ·
So hilarious!! Here is a sample....
The refuge is wonderful and the flora is representative of the region but there appears to be an influx of invasive wildlife.
The species is slow witted and easy to avoid but none the less caution is advised. Even when a bark is worse than a bite remember... there's still a bite. In the event one of these lower primates sees you and approaches there are ways to escape the interaction unscathed.
The easiest way is the dumb down your language and start spouting far right political nonsense. Phrases like "gold standard" and "sovereign citizen" should be used amid random one syllable connectors. But use caution. A broad vocabulary or use of "snotty, big-city words" could indicate higher education or as they say "too much time with the teachin lady". They don't seem to like this.
If exposed in this way you can throw a tin of chewing tobacco to lure them away or just point and yell "Obama!". Either should buy you enough time to flee. If they see a library card prepare to defend yourself. Their attack is reflexive and to the death.
One upside of their unwanted presence is park hours. Malheur is now open 24/7... for white people wearing camo
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 7, 2016 - 10:47am PT
.......
The daily rhythm of life here has been interrupted, said resident after resident on Wednesday night. But Harney County Sheriff David Ward raised a more troubling issue. He said one of his wife’s tires had been “flattened,” and said someone followed his parents home.

“You don't come here and intimidate people. That's not how we live our lives in Harney County,” Ward said. “Our wives have a right not to be tailed home. Our pastors have a right to not be shouted at on the street.

"You don't get to threaten me because I disagree with you."

He delivered the last line to raucous applause, then asked for a show of hands: How many people want the occupiers to go home, he asked. At least three-quarters of the room raised their hands.

...............
Didn't Bundy state.. he would go home if the town didn't want them occupying the wildlife refuge ?

In that article they spoke of 75% of the 500+ people in the tent raising their hands in support of the Sheriff.

Well, by my math that leaves about 100+ people in that tent who don't want these odd campers to leave.

My guess is the problems in this town run much deeper than the impromptu winter birdwatchers. The Sheriff might have found an easy shiny object to point at but those 100+ people are not going to leave with the Bundy clan.

Winter campers who forget to bring enough supplies, 'occupy' federal buildings with no plan, and clearly are pretty clueless are probably not masterminding flat tires of local officials.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2016 - 10:57am PT
that article they spoke of 75% of the 500+ people in the tent raising their hands in support of the Sheriff.

I watched a video of the meeting and there was no where near 500 people in that buidling, 200-300 maybe.

The sheriff publicly stated that he agreed with 90% of what Bundy was spewing. Sounds to me like that town deserves Bundy.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 7, 2016 - 11:37am PT
I watched a video of the meeting and there was no where near 500 people in that buidling, 200-300 maybe.

The sheriff publicly stated that he agreed with 90% of what Bundy was spewing. Sounds to me like that town deserves Bundy.


Well, if you want, you can count them. Remember when you do that Burns has a population of 2,700 and the whole county (9th largest in the USA) is 7,442 in the last census. It was a good crowd.

The sheriffs speech is here in this link. I think you may be he hearring what you want. He didn't say he agreed with any of the Bundy folks on much at all, much less 90%. What he said was they should go home and let the local citizens handle their own disputes peacefully and through elected officials. He also spoke out about intimidation going on in the county since the Bundys arrived, and that his wife has left the county until things blow over.

http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/2016/01/07/hundreds-attend-community-meeting-burns/78395738/
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Jan 7, 2016 - 11:43am PT
Hayes suggests that once the armed protestors leave the complex, they must be prosecuted firmly and without delay for their illegal actions. "Armed takeovers cannot be tolerated in our country. Respect for the rule of law is, and must continue to be, a central tenet of our democracy."

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2016/january/oregon-land-protest-010616.html
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 7, 2016 - 01:49pm PT
that article they spoke of 75% of the 500+ people in the tent raising their hands in support of the Sheriff.



A picture of the show of hands is here:

http://www.opb.org/news/article/harney-county-residents-speak-out-on-occupation/
Looks pretty overwhelming to me.


The attached audio file is a good listen.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 7, 2016 - 04:08pm PT
I just went into my local pub after a Christmas road trip and told them I wasn't leaving until my demands for as much beer as I wanted were met.

They said there would be no problem. Maybe this occupation protest thing really works.
couchmaster

climber
Jan 7, 2016 - 04:14pm PT


Well that's settled. Per Lorenzos picture, the reporters unanimously want them to stay whereas the townspeople want them to leave. Reporters be getting overtime.


Union scale?

Hazardous pay?

Bonus's for the extra ads the news companies can sell?



Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Jan 7, 2016 - 04:22pm PT
[url="Meet the Militia: The Zealots, Cowboys and 'Rogue Infidels' of the Oregon Insurgency http://flip.it/BeWQW"]Meet the Militia: The Zealots, Cowboys and 'Rogue Infidels' of the Oregon Insurgency http://flip.it/BeWQW[/url]
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
Jan 7, 2016 - 04:30pm PT
What Would Jesus Shoot?
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 7, 2016 - 04:49pm PT
Lorenzo put up a post with a lot of relevant links a page or two back. It will take some time, but it is worth a careful read if you are at all interested in this.

My feelings on it are pretty clear. There isn't a problem in Harney County. The Bundy's aren't wanted there.

I also saw that Ryan Payne, the Bunkerville self appointed spokesman is there with the Bundys. Talk about a piece of work.

I read something online where one of the militia folks thought that he was a plant from the feds trying to start violence, and that is what he is doing now. None of this makes much sense, but it shows you how paranoid these people are. They thought they were going to get hit by a drone strike down in Nevada. Yep. Drone strike right on the Interstate.

These folks are seriously twisted. Read just how paranoid they are...of each other:

http://www.libertyroundtable.com/2016/01/06/oregon-false-flag/

Werner I believe pointed this page out.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2016 - 05:49pm PT
This letter home almost made me cry

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 7, 2016 - 06:06pm PT

Ry
http://www.libertyroundtable.com/2016/01/06/oregon-false-flag/

Werner I believe pointed this page out.

Ok, here is a perfect example of everything that is FU'd with the Internet.

first off, this guy's nom de Guerre is Youingling. Yeah, and I'm general Pliny the Elder.
That it is The same as the oldest brewery in America should raise some hackles.


monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 7, 2016 - 06:32pm PT
The paranoia loons love the false flag concept. Easy explanation that fits their world view.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 7, 2016 - 06:35pm PT
Is it Yingling or Youingling? and did anyone email him yet?

cyingling26@gmail.com



http://lhghostco.com/members/cyingling26gmail-com/

krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
Jan 7, 2016 - 06:38pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 7, 2016 - 06:50pm PT
Is it Yingling or Youingling? and did anyone email him yet?


It's also tied with Sam Adams as the largest American owned brewery
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 7, 2016 - 07:16pm PT
krahmes: TL;DR that video or start it at an interesting spot. I'm not watching 25 minutes of random congressman blather.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jan 7, 2016 - 07:17pm PT
I'm sure that those steely-eyed patriots are only occupying the place to make certain that the Feds give it all back to the Paiutes (sp?) they stole it from in the first place.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 7, 2016 - 07:31pm PT
I stopped watching the congressman when he started on federal policy.

The original title to almost all BLM land lies with the federal government (us). The federal government (we) administer that land in ways that hopefully provide benefit to us all. The fact that some ranchers hold grazing rights to our land doesn't mean they call the shots.

I keep reading where they want the public land "returned", "reclaimed" and "taken back" to the states. Since the states never had title to these lands, how can they be returned?

It's rough out there farming marginal land. The BLM screws things up sometimes, no doubt. But if they find federal land regulations to onerous, then stop using federal land.

Or better yet, buy it. That's why all that land was surveyed into townships and sections to begin with.

That's my Wall of Text and I'm sticking to it.
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Jan 7, 2016 - 08:09pm PT
Reassuring that Rep. Greg Walden supports the Paiute Indians getting their lands back! Surprising for a Republican. Did I miss-read or mis-hear something?
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 7, 2016 - 09:28pm PT
I think this is real. It's not the Onion. I could be wrong. But it makes sense

http://usuncut.com/news/oregon-standoff-member-caught-drinking-donation-money/

Morale at Oregon Standoff Collapses After Militia Member Goes AWOL, Drinks Away Donation Money

Dylan Hock | January 7, 2016

The enemy within.


The week-long Oregon standoff at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, already the butt of many jokes, is already falling apart due to infighting between group members.

According to a Facebook video that he has since removed from his profile, Cai Irvin, one of the gunmen holding down the federal bird sanctuary, claimed that one of the “patriots” walked off the camp to stay in a hotel and drink away the donations he raked in to be part of the insurgency.

The man in question is identified as Joe O’Shaugnessy, otherwise known as “Capt. O,” allegedly a member of the Arizona militia. Capt. O had been arguing with others at the occupation and ended up checking into a motel room Wednesday night where other pseudo-supporters have been staying.

Infamous anti-Muslim organizer and fellow Arizonan militant John Ritzheimer, also present in Oregon for the standoff, went over to the motel to confirm O’Shaugnessy’s desertion. Ritzheimer found him drinking alcohol paid for with the donations given to him by fellow “patriots” wishing to support the effort, according to disabled National Guard member and group spokesperson Maureen Peltier.

“Ritzheimer did call me – he’s f*#king pissed, he’s mad, he’s upset. He told me to tell all of you that Joe O’Shaugnessy is a deserter and a coward,” Irvin said.


Since several of the militants have been seen in the local area dining at restaurants even as the standoff remains underway, the fact that Capt. O went to stay at a local motel wouldn’t have sparked too much surprise, nor indicate anything out of the ordinary was afoot. However, Ritzheimer’s message indicates O’Shaugnessy may be the second “deserter” among participants of the poorly-planned Oregon standoff. One of the insurgents who has already run off under the pressure is Brian “Buddha” Cavalier, who likely fled in shame after the media reported that he had lied about being a Marine, with the Marine Corps itself revealing that they had no record of his service.

O’Shaugnessy also argued with his fellow “revolutionaries,” taking issue with the fact that women and children are present at an occupation where the militants have been attempting to goad law enforcement into a gunfight to the death.

But despite the tiffs and miffs between the group and O’Shaugnessy, members of the militant group say they feel betrayed by Captain O, who had also been party to the standoff at the Bundy Ranch last year.

Having learned of Captain O’s recent fiery thirst, Irvin said:

“It’s like finding out there is no such thing as Santa. Come on, man.”

O’Shaugnessy, however, is not exactly wallowing in his crowdfunded beer. Instead, he’s written a small statement on his Facebook claiming the Malheur militants are now running a “smear campaign” on him, presumably for calling them out on the presence of women and children at a would-be gunfight and storming off. Captain O said:

“Because I have been vocal about not supporting the actions taken by the individuals inside the compound apparently they have desired to launch a smear campaign against me. Even though I am one of the only Patriots on the outside doing everything I can to try and prevent this from turning into another Wako [sic] And making sure to protect the safety of all involved. To what I say my reputation is sterling.”

With two prominent members already gone or seemingly ousted, it seems this standoff may end with a whimper rather than a bang.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 7, 2016 - 09:46pm PT
Walden is pretty much worthless.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 7, 2016 - 09:54pm PT
If nothing else, maybe the NPS could just hire these guys to stay on in the summer for bird security, maybe to keep the place tidy after hours.

Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 7, 2016 - 11:42pm PT

Jan 7, 2016 - 09:54pm PT
If nothing else, maybe the NPS could just hire these guys to stay on in the summer for bird security, maybe to keep the place tidy after hours.

They'd want overtime.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 8, 2016 - 12:28am PT
Re the last two posts from fear & Lorenzo:


Jan 7, 2016 - 09:54pm PT
If nothing else, maybe the NPS could just hire these guys to stay on in the summer for bird security, maybe to keep the place tidy after hours.
From Lorenzo:
They'd want overtime

The payment problem is: those folks want to be paid in cash, preferably in advance, and the Feds take about a month, plus a lot of intrusive personal information, before they mail you a paycheck.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 8, 2016 - 05:30am PT
I disagree... if they cut off the road, in a few cold weeks these guys will likely gladly work for Cheetos and/or Oreos...

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 8, 2016 - 06:38am PT
Jon Beck- That video was top notch.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 8, 2016 - 07:08am PT
The original title to almost all BLM land lies with the federal government (us). The federal government (we) administer that land in ways that hopefully provide benefit to us all. The fact that some ranchers hold grazing rights to our land doesn't mean they call the shots.

I keep reading where they want the public land "returned", "reclaimed" and "taken back" to the states. Since the states never had title to these lands, how can they be returned?

It's rough out there farming marginal land. The BLM screws things up sometimes, no doubt. But if they find federal land regulations too onerous, then stop using federal land.

Gary, +5

Jon Beck video, +5

Oh yeah, and the article Alpinista55 linked around post 570 is excellent too. Thanks Jay!!




Treating these guys like special spoiled children!!
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Jan 8, 2016 - 07:28am PT
Perhaps I can put a climbing related perspective into this thread. Ever been tooled by a ranger in Yosemite? I think the ranchers have a similar perspective. Picture a crusty old rancher who has been raising cattle just like his father and grandfather did. He knows the land where he works like his backyard because it is his backyard. Along comes some kid from New York with a degree in biology and a job with the BLM. The kid has never seen a cow before starting the job. The kid's job is to manage the grazing but the rancher objects. The two don't get along but the green kid has the law behind him. Trouble ensues.

I resent the fact that I can't simply go to Yosemite whenever I want, camp wherever I want and climb whatever I want. Camping at the litter box on 140 sucks as does sneaking into the woods and hiding in a bush all night.

Perhaps we should get our guns and go occupy Yellow Pine campground because that place is over regulated and under utilized. We can run the place better ourselves. Maybe we can get Ron to be our leader and spokesman.

However, I can hardly imagine what a mess the ditch would be if people were allowed to do whatever they want. People are simply not capable of self management. Every square inch of the valley would be a parked car (with tent), motor home, trash heap, or turd. The trees would have long ago been consumed in campfires and wildfires. The deer and bears shot for the fun of it and left to rot. Sounds like a libertarian paradise to me.
couchmaster

climber
Jan 8, 2016 - 07:28am PT
Kahrmes, great Greg Walden vid. Thanks for posting it. Its all good but more relevant 6-16:50 min or so.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 8, 2016 - 07:33am PT
Perhaps I can put a climbing related perspective into this thread. Ever been tooled by a ranger in Yosemite? I think the ranchers have a similar perspective.


Yeah it's really frustrating. I mean so what my bonfire spread out into Tuolumne Meadows for the second time? This is supposed to be a free country!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 8, 2016 - 07:49am PT
He knows the land where he works like his backyard because it is his backyard.

I think the point is that it's not technically his backyard. He's renting it for very little, and then starts thinking it's his.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Jan 8, 2016 - 07:57am PT
If the ranchers had all the land then there would be barbed wire fences and no trespassing signs all over the place. The Steens are a beautiful mountain range near there as is the Alvord Desert. I have camped and been through there many times, as well as visited the wildlife refuge. Of course where I camped there had been cow pies all over the place, but hey, its Central Oregon, its part of the experience. Years ago in the City of Rocks it was like that too.

What needs to be made perfectly clear, is that we the people, through the BLM are sharing the grazing rights to this land with the ranchers. The ranchers then have an obligation to be good stewards of that land. They do not own it, it is not theirs, and if they don't like the rules then they don't have to play rancher. BTW, I am sympathetic to ranchers as I came from a family that farmed and ranched in Utah. My dad was a large animal vet for ranchers.

These guys are emboldened because nothing was done in Nevada with their daddy. They should have been thrown in jail and it makes me angry that unarmed people in Urban Areas get beat up or shot by police, but these armed domestic terrorists are treated with kid gloves.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/post_229.html

That link that Werner put up is interesting. Here is what Col. Dingling had to say:

It was stated, dare I say, TAUGHT to me today by a close friend who is an ex special forces operator, that wars are not won by people taking rash actions such as the ones that have been taken here. Wars are won with proper planning. That sh#t hit me like a brick.. And I Will NEVER forget those words as that is the smartest thing I have heard throughout this entire ordeal.

1. Plan
2. Equip
3. Rehearse
4. Execute

THAT’S how you win a battle. THAT’S how you minimize casualties.. THAT’S how you win a war.

What a moron. This is how you climb a big objective. Plan, Equip, Rehearse (or train) and execute. He claims to be a Colonel and is just now figuring this out? Really?
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 8, 2016 - 08:01am PT
After a careful reading of the second amendment to the constitution, I do not see anything that prevents the Fed Govt and/or various other govts from requiring that all natural born U.S. citizens be armed at all times.


Immediate implementation of this policy will end once and for all the debate about whether there would have been less killing if only there had been armed citizens present, no?


A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

As ratified by the States and authenticated by Thomas Jefferson, then-Secretary of State:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Why did Jefferson change the spelling?
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 8, 2016 - 08:03am PT
They think the county sheriff has a lot of say in federal land policy? They seemed upset that the sheriff didn't want to negotiate their "grievances."
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jan 8, 2016 - 08:15am PT
The U.S. Marshals should be there, not a county sheriff.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 8, 2016 - 08:24am PT
Why waste the Fed's time?
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 8, 2016 - 08:57am PT
Why did Jefferson change the spelling?

He didn't. The first version is the signed hand written version that sits in the National Archives. It is the official Law of the Land. Copyists changed the spelling and punctuation, which gives subtly different meaning, and printed versions followed that, including with fewer commas. That was more economical for type setters.

Interestingly, the version without the extra punctuation is the version quoted by the SCOTUS in District of Columbia v Heller.


Some states apparently debated and ratified the version with fewer commas, then signed the original.I'd have to go back and see which states those were.
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Jan 8, 2016 - 09:15am PT
I don't know why I am so interested in this event. But I am.

Very interesting analysis (oddly published on a rogue financial website) here:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-01-03/oregon-standoff-terrible-plan-we-might-be-stuck?page=1

Key terms are "Fourth-generation warfare" and "Asymmetric warfare"

Whatever the Bundys are doing, they are losing the war for "hearts and minds"
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jan 8, 2016 - 09:17am PT
Those Bundy's sure take the prize.
I do like Kelly Bundy, and Al was a cool dude, but Ted Bundy, he wasn't so cool.

Then there is that dynamic dual Ryan Bundy and his bro dumb ass
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWvNrMq5OAg
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 8, 2016 - 09:18am PT
The U.S. Marshals should be there, not a county sheriff.

The safe passage the sherrif was offering was safety from the Feds. It's intentional.
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Jan 8, 2016 - 09:31am PT
The link I posted above appears to be a re-post of this which at least has a picture of a rock climber.

http://alt-market.com/articles/2775-oregon-standoff-a-terrible-plan-that-we-might-be-stuck-with
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 8, 2016 - 09:37am PT
I'm so confused why that awesome o-dub is at the top of that really shitty trip report.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 8, 2016 - 09:53am PT
Here's a big part of the problem, it comes from the comments section of the first link:
As far being correct, they are correct in that the Federal government has no right controlling lands of counties and states, the Federal lands that they can push their statutory rules are limited to Federal possessions only. Harbors, arsenals, Washington DC, and military bases for the most part. The BLM and other Fed agencies have no control over a Common Law man, problem is that hardly anyone knows how to be a CL man and as a result they either create conflict, or they consent to the jurisdiction of these Fed agencies volunterially. So these Patriots either wind up dead or infront of a Government Court getting the gears.

This is so wrong it's hard to fathom. It's a bunch of that sovereign citizen claptrap.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jan 8, 2016 - 09:58am PT
!WARNING! Spew alert.
Blame Bush. He got the patriot act passed.
Oh the irony!
The "Patriot Act" is in fact frequently un-patriotic.

The so-called "Patriot Act" has a great deal of overreach. As we all now know. From monitoring phone conversations without reasonable cause, a secret court (about as anti-American as you get), to holding people in detention for weeks or months without bringing charges. Even serious international relations problems (think Gitmo which remains a terrorist recruiting tool).
The mandatory term of 5 years for arson on Federal property was part of it. I'd bet few legislators read the fine print. Or perhaps they were thinking only Muslim terrorists would commit arson on Fed property. I read a few sections in detail. Enough to know it was government overreach and a very flawed set of laws. Quite a bit of it is likely unconstitutional. Just ask the many US Citizens of foreign birth or appearance who've spent time in "indeterminate detention" since.
So the irony is clear. The flag waving, Muslim fearing, Law 'n Order (largely white supremacist or neo-Nazi) "militias" are pissed off at a law that I'm sure many of them supported in their anti-Muslim hysteria.
One will notice that the Hammonds apparently went back to prison willingly. They might have tried fleeing to Malheur. They have learned something. The Constitution has meaning, laws have sometimes unexpected results and arson is a Very Bad Idea even on the open range of the Big Bad Gummint.
Or perhaps they didn't want to freeze their arses off for a few weeks just to end up back in prison anyway. The Hammonds may in fact be the only ones who understand the Constitution, the Rule of Law and the duty to obey the law or take the consequences. Whether one likes the law or not.

Edit:
...a secret court (about as anti-American as you get), to holding people in detention for weeks or months without bringing charges.
Does anybody remember the Stazi and KGB? What short memories most Americans have.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 8, 2016 - 10:18am PT
I saw a funny reference to this group:

VANILLA ISIS
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 8, 2016 - 10:40am PT
I have said it before on this thread, but I will say it again. 5 years in prison for burning off a small amount of scrubland is crazy. Ranchers around here burn their fields periodically. Usually they get together with their neighbors, call the fire department to make sure no high winds or wildfire conditions exist, and burn it. Grasslands need it. We have a problem with Eastern Red Cedar taking over grasslands. Before whitey showed up, the prairies regularly burned, and those things go up like a gas can.

It is those damn mandatory minimum sentences. Even the judge who sentenced them noted that. Well, that is what you get when congress passes a law that forces a judge to forego any judgement and apply mandatory sentences. That is why the Hammonds got 5 years for doing what ranchers around here do on a regular basis.

I refer you to the 1984 Sentencing Reform Act. It should be revoked, or Obama ought to let the Hammonds go with time served, along with thousands of others serving long sentences for minor, non-violent crime. That 1984 act seriously messed up federal sentencing guidelines.

And I have no respect at all for the nutjobs like the Bundy's. Those guys have gotten away with all sorts of stuff. Just look at Cliven Bundy's wiki page. It explains the whole shebang:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff

Their entire Sovereign Citizen Movement is crazy hogwash. According to Bundy, he owns a big chunk of SW Nevada, because he grazed cattle on it.

The cattle grazing fees are dirt cheap. If you have a grazing allotment, there is no reason to own much of a ranch of your own. It is cheaper to have the allotment than to actually own land and pay property taxes.

Who gets those grazing rights has also always puzzled me. It seems to go to the same family decade after decade.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 8, 2016 - 10:42am PT
You can bet these guys were all in favor of mandatory sentencing when it applied to urban pot smokers.
MattB

Trad climber
Tucson
Jan 8, 2016 - 10:44am PT
Base 104

Irresponsible fire set after dark, blowing toward camped firefighting grunts fighting range fire...

After prior arrests for similar
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 8, 2016 - 11:04am PT
one set to cover up the crime of poaching a number of deer.
MattB

Trad climber
Tucson
Jan 8, 2016 - 11:13am PT
Yup^^ ;That was earlier, the second? arson to cover up poaching...

Current charge is third arson... burned toward encamped wildland firefighters
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 8, 2016 - 11:15am PT
A stiff punishment seemed pretty warranted. There is a problem with harsh sentencing in this country, however. Incarceration is a crappy tool and we way, way overuse it.
MattB

Trad climber
Tucson
Jan 8, 2016 - 11:26am PT
Yes hddj... also fed use of informants, based on these too stiff penalties.

I was slightly involved in enviro things turn of millenium. The patriot act really scared people, thinking sitting on a bridge could be called terrorism...although it has been hardly implemented as broadly as people feared.

True dat, gary... and probably wanted to shoot those Occupy hiipy skum
Norton

Social climber
Jan 8, 2016 - 11:27am PT
any word on how the snack supply is holding out at the compound?


And yes, it did happen that Ritzheimer, who did remember to bring his paperback copy of the Constitution, actually sent out a tweet asking for care packages for things his compadres forgot to pack for their armed dude-seminar. They asked for socks, snacks, energy drinks (!), equipment for cold weather, snow camo, and "gear."

This was after Bundy had told reporters that the group was prepared to stay for "years" and had enough supplies to see them through. "We have food planned and prepared," he said.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-dumb-and-the-restless-20160107#ixzz3wgOND02k
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 8, 2016 - 11:34am PT
Aside from water, by my reckoning at apparent BMI's.... this could go on for a year or more.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 8, 2016 - 11:40am PT
Aside from water, by my reckoning at apparent BMI's.... this could go on for a year or more.

Haha. The Militia Diet is all the rage.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 8, 2016 - 11:46am PT
Let 'em stay and garner more nutpersons.

Saves the cost of trial and incarceration.


And, yes, mandatory sentencing guidelines have really screwed things up. We now imprison more people than any country in history (including the Soviet Union under Stalin). We incarcerate one quarter of all the prisoners in the world.

Crazy!
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 8, 2016 - 11:50am PT
It's not just the mandatory minimums. It's our whole approach.
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Jan 8, 2016 - 11:52am PT
Is this still going on?

They have not shoot them all yet?

Boring!
MattB

Trad climber
Tucson
Jan 8, 2016 - 11:53am PT
One aspect of the high incarceration rate is the high execution rate in china, and presumably back in the ussr... also plain prison worker deaths

I doubt any reliable stats exist for this

Edit

Frumy- all good fed stand-offs last at least a month or two...
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 8, 2016 - 11:59am PT
Frumy- all good fed stand-offs last at least a month or two...


yeah, but these guys are pretty weak sauce. about as weak as they come really. I give these un-american inbreds a week tops before they wimp out.
dirtbag

climber
Jan 8, 2016 - 12:01pm PT
Yep.


Now, the Freemen in Montana: they knew how to tell the government to f*#k off.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montana_Freemen
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Jan 8, 2016 - 12:16pm PT
It is cold and lonely out on the Malheur Refuge. I think we should send those guys some sheep.

Did you know that Malheur is French for misfortune or bad luck? Seems somehow appropriate. Malheur Refuge is the refuge of misfortune.
Norton

Social climber
Jan 8, 2016 - 12:22pm PT

word is Little Debbie Snacks are most requested Gear
MattB

Trad climber
Tucson
Jan 8, 2016 - 12:24pm PT
Yesssssss

More nutter butters please!!!!
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 8, 2016 - 12:36pm PT
It is cold and lonely out on the Malheur Refuge. I think we should send those guys some sheep.

Did you know that Malheur is French for misfortune or bad luck? Seems somehow appropriate. Malheur Refuge is the refuge of misfortune.

Now, that's just cruel for those sheep...

WyoRockMan

climber
Grizzlyville, WY
Jan 8, 2016 - 12:42pm PT
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Jan 8, 2016 - 12:47pm PT
^^^ That's a special kind of sick
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 8, 2016 - 12:57pm PT
Wow, Dirtbag, I actually read that link. I remember a little about it.

Anyone can file a lien against someone else. Type it up and pay for it to be recorded in the county courthouse. You can also type up a deed and claim that you own somebody else's property. File it in the county where the land lies, and await the shitstorm that will follow if you are discovered.

The Montana Militia in the link did just that. They would file liens against judges, etc. as well as make fake checks. Those guys were full-on off their rockers.

I've spent years running title on mineral rights in the vaults of county courthouses. I've never run across a false document. I've run across many lawsuits, which happen between people, but nothing downright false, although you could do it in a one page document along with a 12 dollar check for the County Clerk to file.

First, you will be hit with slander of title suits. Then you will go to jail for any number of varieties of fraud. That is why nobody does it, around here, anyway.

Say you buy a house. You need to run a title examination, and the attorney will see it like a big red light. Unfortunately, this could accidentally hurt a person's credit record, as certain liens, such as mechanic's liens, are followed.

Basically, I could file a fake deed with your fake signature saying that you sold your house to me...when you didn't. That is also known as fraud.

People are pretty picky when it comes to clear title to their properties. An example of a lien is a mortgage. Anyone who later has a claim to the property has notice that the bank has first dibs on your house if you stop paying your bills, and creditors come after your property in a judgement.

Those guys were certifiable nuts, and the FBI took great care not to have a bloody Waco like standoff.

We are seeing this take place in Oregon now. There is little doubt that an armed takeover of a federal complex such as the Wildlife Refuge's facilities is a crime. The government just isn't going to let it get bloody. They will wait and pick them off one by one.

I'm sure that they have a file on THIS GUY, for example:

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 8, 2016 - 01:05pm PT
What always fascinated me about that picture is the other yahoos nearby with their heads above the barriers.

Let's all crowd around the guy with the rifle that has 99% concealment and get some pictures!
dirtbag

climber
Jan 8, 2016 - 01:07pm PT
Fear, the media spectacles associated with these kind of events are often the weirdest parts.
MattB

Trad climber
Tucson
Jan 8, 2016 - 01:10pm PT
I prefer to think many of the belligerents in nevada were federal agents... and at malheur, keeping track of the crazies.

Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 8, 2016 - 01:23pm PT

Jan 8, 2016 - 01:10pm PT
I prefer to think many of the belligerents in nevada were federal agents... and at malheur, keeping track of the crazies.

You look for the guys with shiny shoes.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 8, 2016 - 01:36pm PT
What always fascinated me about that picture is the other yahoos nearby with their heads above the barriers.

Let's all crowd around the guy with the rifle that has 99% concealment and get some pictures!

It was almost as if he was responding to a threat that didn't exist!
MattB

Trad climber
Tucson
Jan 8, 2016 - 01:40pm PT
That Bundy feller shur has a perty sombrero
WyoRockMan

climber
Grizzlyville, WY
Jan 8, 2016 - 01:46pm PT
And they are fighting amongst each other.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/01/08/1467361/-After-accusations-of-stolen-valor-a-rival-group-and-a-broken-nose-the-Y-all-Qaeda-civil-war-begins
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 8, 2016 - 01:54pm PT
I prefer to think many of the belligerents in nevada were federal agents... and at malheur, keeping track of the crazies

Those guys are way paranoid. They always think that some of the folks who show up are feds.

Here is a nice story showing the paranoia that The Oathkeepers have regarding one of the main guys:

https://www.oathkeepers.org/oregon-standoff-federal-provocateurs-sociopaths-and-idiots/
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jan 8, 2016 - 01:56pm PT
They are bringing in reinforcements

Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jan 8, 2016 - 02:40pm PT
Say... are those guys related to the Bundys on Married With Children?

Or Ted Bundy? I know for sure that HE was a Republican.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 8, 2016 - 03:16pm PT
Okee dokee, Jon started the OP with this little tidbit.

Led by the soon to be incarcerated Ammon Bundy

Judging by the video I posted earlier of the Sheriff offering them a safe escort out of the state, that's looking less and less likely. At least the "soon" part. Did anyone watch that mid-road chat after the town meeting? I thought it was interesting.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 8, 2016 - 03:18pm PT
Time to send in SUPER COP! But this ain't no pool party

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Lollie

Social climber
I'm Lolli.
Jan 8, 2016 - 03:47pm PT
Here comes the right clip. By association.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 8, 2016 - 03:52pm PT
What always fascinated me about that picture is the other yahoos nearby with their heads above the barriers.

I never viewed tham as being with the yahoos. They seemed like passerbys who were astounded at the fake drama.
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Jan 8, 2016 - 03:57pm PT
Bill Mc Kirgan

Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Jan 8, 2016 - 04:09pm PT
^^ Is this man chewing tobacco?


---edit

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3390565/Cliven-Bundy-s-son-Ryan-recounts-moment-car-ran-head-seven-left-severe-nerve-damage-face-paralysis.html

No, he has nerve damage to his face from an injury as a child.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 8, 2016 - 05:48pm PT
Derris Devon McQuaig, a certifiably mentally disturbed fellow, has filed transfer deeds claiming he owns both Petco Park and Qualcomm stadium in San Diego.

McQuaig tried to take ownership of Petco away from the city and Padres by submitting a simple deed transfer at the County Recorder’s Office in late 2013.

There’s essentially no chance of McQuaig taking control of the property because no actual sale or transaction took place, but the document clouds the legal title to the ballpark and has forced city and county officials to spend more than two years trying to resolve the situation.

...

"We don’t know how he ended up in San Diego — he disappeared from Riverside County about two years ago," she said, explaining that the couple had been estranged for a few years before his disappearance.

She also expressed concern and frustration that family members hadn’t been contacted since the county district attorney launched a felony fraud case in 2014 against McQuaig for the bogus title transfer.

That case ended without a conviction on Dec. 16 when Superior Court Judge Steven Stone determined McQuaig was not mentally competent to defend himself, appointed a public conservator to oversee him and ordered him to spend three years in a psychiatric facility where anti-psychotic medication can be administered against his will.

"I’m still figuring out how it got to this point, but nobody tried to find the family to tell them where he was," Jennifer McQuaig said. "We would have liked to have control over his well-being instead of the state."


This does not generate a lot of confidence in the legal processes in the good old U.S. of A.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 8, 2016 - 05:54pm PT
Standard practice by the Montana Feemen and other separatist groups. They filed liens on judges, LEO's and even reporters.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montana_Freemen

They eventually got long jail time, whereupon one of them filed a lien on Madelain Albright from Jail!
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jan 8, 2016 - 06:29pm PT
StahlBro, does that guy play a banjo?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jan 8, 2016 - 06:42pm PT
Lollie right on target as usual.
LMAO!!!
John M

climber
Jan 8, 2016 - 06:46pm PT
http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/01/08/im-an-oregon-rancher-heres-what-you-dont-understand-about-the-bundy-standoff/

sounds kind of like climbers issues with rangers..


this in no way is to suggest that I support what the those guys at the wildlife refuge are doing. I'm looking that the anger behind the scenes. Anger of more then just these kooks.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 8, 2016 - 07:14pm PT
That Rolling Stone link is pretty funny.

The Bundy militiamen are like a Black September version of an Iron John forest retreat: a bunch of weepy middle-aged guys who dressed up in crisply pressed outdoorswear and took over a bird sanctuary so they could play outlaw for a few days while they "worked on themselves."

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 8, 2016 - 07:26pm PT
What is going on behind closed doors, what happens in Malheur stays in Malheur until it gets posted on the internet

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/oregon_standoff_idaho_militia.html

MadBum 8 minutes ago
"Did you bring condoms?" Jed whispered. "Not to worry, we're protected by the 1st and 2nd Amendment" Ammon replied.

FlagShare3Mango JerryTerryDarcGeorgeWHaydukeLikeReply
notauntsusan
notauntsusan 7 minutes ago
@MadBum Tears filled Jeds eyes, there was no turning back.

FlagShare1MadBumLikeReply
CMarija
CMarija 6 minutes ago
@MadBum unbuttoning his blouse with trembling fingers..

FlagShareLikeReply
CMarija
CMarija 5 minutes ago
@MadBum instinctively, his body arched toward him, take me dead or alive, but take me now...

FlagShare1MadBumLikeReply
notauntsusan
notauntsusan 4 minutes ago
@CMarija @MadBum He worked his way down to the Militia Super Shooter belt buckle on his lovers wranglers. (Purchased on sale at BiMart.)

FlagShareLikeReply
CMarija
CMarija 2 minutes ago
hyp@notauntsusan @CMarija @MadBumhypnotized by his touch, he tingled under his nubby rough nail bitten finger tips, gusts of desire shook them

FlagShareLikeReply
notauntsusan
notauntsusan just now
@CMarija @notauntsusan @MadBum There was a smell of semen and half chewed Skoal in the room, that permeated his world and drove him madly to the source of his desire.

monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 8, 2016 - 07:33pm PT
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Jan 8, 2016 - 07:42pm PT

Lollie
What do the folks internationally think about these posers????
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jan 8, 2016 - 07:42pm PT
So the ranchers feel fenced in by the Feds. So ranching is a tough life. So they have a helluva time making a living. This is nothing new. No one's forcing them to keep ranching.
How many of them have made a fair offer to buy land from the Feds? Or do they expect it to be given to them?
I never hear that side of the story.

Many of them believe that the Federal land is somehow magically theirs. They conveniently forget that the Feds originally gave their predecessors the land they already own. After the Feds took it from the Native Americans.
Every square millimeter of land in the Americas not presently owned by native tribes was taken by the Federal government or white, or Mormon, and a very few black, settlers. With only very small exceptions it was not purchased from the original inhabitants. We are all "freeloading" off the aboriginal peoples.
I never hear that side of the story.

Bundy won't even pay his grazing fees (probably can't now that the bill is over $1million).
How many of these yahoos are chipping in to a fund for Bundy's taxes?
The Hammonds really screwed up and are now accountable to the law. They have accepted their sentences. I respect them for that.
Norton

Social climber
Jan 8, 2016 - 07:49pm PT
Bundy won't even pay his grazing fees

THAT is what angers me the most, that he got a free ride off public land for years
WBraun

climber
Jan 8, 2016 - 07:57pm PT
Crybaby little whiny bitch ^^^^

You people are insane ....
John M

climber
Jan 8, 2016 - 08:33pm PT
HighT.. I agree that some of them whine. Especially those saying the feds don[t have the right to own land. But I have also seen the highhandedness of the Feds and I don't doubt that at times they really screw people over. In that story I linked, the rancher talks about young people being assigned to oversee things, people with no ranching experience, and how difficult it can be to deal with them. That kind of story resonates with what I have seen and heard and it reminds me of climbers relationship with the park in the past.

I suppose we could all just go climb someplace else. Or work someplace else. But why not try to adjust things so that they are more equitable? Some people are so bitter that they can't do this, which reminds me of some climbers attitudes towards rangers, but others try to change things. Much like Ken Yager did by starting facelift and involving climbers in something positive, which changed many rangers attitudes. Of course if we just focus on these nuts in Oregon, then we can just continue to have a mess.

By the way.. do you enjoy a steak? Someone raised that beef. And yes.. I know responsible ranchers. And not all of them have trouble with the Feds. Much like I know climbers who don't have trouble with the Feds. That doesn't mean that trouble hasn't or doesn't exist.

Its the rare person who couldn't stand to learn a little compassion.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 8, 2016 - 10:17pm PT
After the Feds took it from the Native Americans.
Every square millimeter of land in the Americas not presently owned by native tribes was taken by the Federal government or white, or Mormon, and a very few black, settlers. With only very small exceptions it was not purchased from the original inhabitants. We are all "freeloading" off the aboriginal peoples.
I never hear that side of the story.

You bring up an interesting point. Re: Indians vs. US, I don't think that any reasonable person would describe it as anything but a war.

And there are traditions in war, true since there have been tribes: You take the land of the loser, it becomes that of the winner. The people become slaves or are killed. The property of the vanquished is divided up.

Remember that the main motivations for war is to take something that someone else has.

This changed, as far as I know for the first time, in WWI and II (although there was some land grabbing) In II, Russia basically followed the old model, and amazingly, we did not.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 8, 2016 - 10:24pm PT
In that story I linked, the rancher talks about young people being assigned to oversee things, people with no ranching experience, and how difficult it can be to deal with them.

I've dealt with a lot of such youngsters, and it seems to me the actual operative thing is that they don't have ranching experience, so they go by the rules, instead of the "go along to get along" attitude of older guys who have lived in the community.


Ranchers often DONT take care of the land in a sustainable way.

Up on the Golden Trout Wilderness, where I sometimes do volunteer work, Monache Meadow, the largest meadow in the Sierra, has basically been destroyed by the cattle. What was once verdant fields of hip-tall native grasses, has been replaced by sagebrush, mainly by cattle damage. It's enough to make you cry.

What is particularly irksome, is that this is the home of the Golden Trout, whose habitat is gradually being destroyed by the cattle, grazing the streambanks and eroding and silting out the breeding gravel. Cattle can be raised anywhere, but this place is our heritage.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 8, 2016 - 10:31pm PT
The Armed Oregon Ranchers Who Want Free Land Are Already Getting A 93 Percent Discount

From 538
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 9, 2016 - 09:09am PT
" Every square millimeter of land in the Americas not presently owned by native tribes was taken by the Federal government or white, or Mormon, and a very few black, settlers. With only very small exceptions it was not purchased from the original inhabitants. We are all "freeloading" off the aboriginal peoples."

Who was the original inhabitant? The "firsts nations" immigrated here too.

Then they stole land from each other for millennia. Then they lost to someone else...

That's how the cookie crumbles.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 9, 2016 - 09:19am PT
That's how the cookie crumbles.

So.... Bundy should sweep up his crumbs and go home, eh?
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Jan 9, 2016 - 09:34am PT
DMT - Just wanted to let you know that when I read your posts, I often hear them being said in either the voice of the good sheriff, Andy Taylor or else Jed Clampett. I mean that in a good way. Both those characters were great.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Jan 9, 2016 - 01:19pm PT
If you recall, way back, I had a recipe for containing this and ending it.

Now its escalating.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/heavily_armed_security_detail.html#incart_big-photo

If the feds dont do anything, then a lot of these crazies will be emboldened further. The feds have given no response to contain this. Crazy.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 9, 2016 - 01:40pm PT
The comedy marathon might be "winding down"

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/oregon_standoff_fbi_stages_at.html#incart_big-photo
Lollie

Social climber
I'm Lolli.
Jan 9, 2016 - 02:08pm PT
Lollie
What do the folks internationally think about these posers????


SteveW.
Nothing much. After searching awhile I finally did find one article. The article mostly just describes that they occupy a bird sanctuary on federal land. One gets the feeling the reporter finds them both incredible and highly amusing - and rather astounded that the authorities gave up and let Cliven Bundy get away with not paying for letting his animals graze on federal lad. She also states that "The local sheriff doesn't think the occupants has benign purposes".

I saw a post on Facebook, which made fun of them.

News about USA right now are:
 "Joaquín ”El Chapo” Guzmán has been caught and will most likely be turned over to USA, who has previously asked for this.
 A big cat with extra teeth has been killed on the border of Idaho and Utah. A deformity not seen before.
 USA sent a super missile wrong, sent it to Cuba instead of Florida. That worries your military a lot, it's full of sensitive technology you don't want to be spread.
There's more, but you get the gist.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 9, 2016 - 02:44pm PT
That doesn't look like much of an LEO presence. One sat truck with a sticker on it. Looked like Homeland Security, but I couldn't tell.

The feds have time on their sides. The armed militia members only have bullets to eat. They will get hungry, head into town, and hopefully get picked up one by one.

However, I doubt if even that is happening.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 9, 2016 - 03:04pm PT

Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Jan 9, 2016 - 03:23pm PT
I bet Putin and spetsnaz would have cleared this up days ago.

That doesn't look like much of an LEO presence.

Drones don't need boots on the ground. Have ever seen what a hellfire missile can do?

[Click to View YouTube Video]
dirtbag

climber
Jan 9, 2016 - 03:40pm PT
Now its escalating

Great.

Even the Bundyites don't want them.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Jan 9, 2016 - 04:05pm PT

Thanks, Lollie.
Nice to know how the world feels about things. . .
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Jan 9, 2016 - 04:12pm PT
That cat picture is freaky.

I have read that sometimes babies were started at twins, but early along one of the fetus' "absorbs" the other. I would guess that is what this is a case of.


DMT - I loved both of them too. Read somewhere recently that originally Jed was going to be portrayed as a stereotypical dumb hillbilly, and Buddy Epson refuse to take the part unless they made him be a man who was actually damned savvy(which Jed was). But I guess Max Baer didn't have such scruples.

edit: Just looked at his wkipedia page and he was originally to play the Tin Man on "The Wizard of Oz," but developed aluminum toxicity from the makeup and had to drop out.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Lollie

Social climber
I'm Lolli.
Jan 9, 2016 - 05:39pm PT
I've been reading quite a few articles now, on the background of these people. I must admit I don't understand. They've been doing a lot of criminal acts and no authority seems to do anything about it.

There's got to be something which isn't told, a fact which explains why the feds simply doesn't demand payment, reclaim federal land, throw them into jail. They even attacked law enforcement people and kicked a police dog. It really doesn't make any sense. Is it corruption?

WBraun

climber
Jan 9, 2016 - 05:41pm PT
They've been doing a lot of criminal acts and no authority seems to do anything about it.


They learned from their own country.

The US has been doing a lot of criminal acts all over the planet and no authority seems to do anything about it.

This thread is full of nothing but hypocrites .....
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Jan 9, 2016 - 05:47pm PT
Uhhh, Werner. You've been posting in the thread yourself, ya know.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Jan 9, 2016 - 05:53pm PT
The Feds are waiting for Hillary to be coronated then they will peacefully take the guns away from the militia members...In the mean time the militia is surviving off Jack in the box drive thru...
Lollie

Social climber
I'm Lolli.
Jan 9, 2016 - 05:53pm PT
Honestly, it does sound as these people rather belonged in some mental compound.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 9, 2016 - 06:32pm PT

Jan 9, 2016 - 05:47pm PT
Uhhh, Werner. You've been posting in the thread yourself, ya know.

Go easy on him. He's probably one of the transient residents during his migrations.

He doesn't like it if you point out he was smoking during a fire ban.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 9, 2016 - 07:20pm PT
Honestly, it does sound as these people rather belonged in some mental compound.

Lollie, google Sovereign Citizen Movement. It's mindf*#king what people will believe.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 9, 2016 - 07:43pm PT
hahahahahaha!! well played Happie!
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 9, 2016 - 08:44pm PT
Another story from the same site:

http://thatoregonlife.com/2015/09/gov-brown-passes-bill-to-build-wall-around-oregon/

That's our state government. Always a little late to act.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Jan 9, 2016 - 08:55pm PT
who you callin' chikken f*#ker doug?

[Click to View YouTube Video]
jonnyrig

climber
Jan 9, 2016 - 09:02pm PT
http://www.theonion.com/article/chicago-police-department-monitor-all-interactions-52136
MisterE

Gym climber
Small Town with a Big Back Yard
Jan 9, 2016 - 09:16pm PT
Thanks Lolli - it's nice to know our cowboy spin-outs are yawnzy for Europe.

Now if we could all just get on that page.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 9, 2016 - 10:03pm PT

Jan 9, 2016 - 09:16pm PT
Thanks Lolli - it's nice to know our cowboy spin-outs are yawnzy for Europe.

Now if we could all just get on that page.

Same in Argentina. One article in La Nación the first day. El Chapo is stealing the show for foreign news, including a video interview with Sean Penn while El Chapo was on the lam.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 9, 2016 - 11:16pm PT
Three is a crowd? This can't end well

The Oregonian has quite a few pictures of the armed members of the Pacific Patriot Network (you have to see the pictures, OK?) who arrived to present ‘articles of resolution.’

Joseph Rice, a spokesman for the network, didn’t specify what was in the document, but he noted that his group wants to move the sides to an end to the standoff.

Rice didn’t address whether his heavily armed group would return to the refuge.

He only said his group is moving on “to present them (the articles of resolution) to other government agencies” and he added that the network is maintaining a neutral stance in the dispute.

Todd MacFarlane, a lawyer who was acting as a mediator, said that Ammon Bundy doesn’t want the armed visitors there.

MacFarlane told reporters that his message was,”We don’t need that. We don’t want it and we’re asking you to leave.”

The Oregonian reports:

MacFarlane said he had just met with Bundy and other leaders of the occupation.

They’re “alarmed” by the arrival of Pacific Patriot Network members, some carrying rifles, and concerned about the perception they convey.

“This was the last thing in the world they wanted to see happen,” MacFarlane said.

Bundy didn’t request the presence of the network, he said, and has “tried to put out the word: ‘We don’t need you.'”

Before the patriot group arrived, the ”3% of Idaho,” arrived with firearms at their sides to secure the area around the building and to assure the townspeople that they are safe. WTF.

But that group’s presence seemed OK to Ammon Bundy. He said, “If they weren’t here, I’d worry” about a Waco-style siege by federal officials.”

little Z

Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
Jan 10, 2016 - 03:06am PT
”We don’t need that. We don’t want it and we’re asking you to leave.”

Isn't that what the locals said to Bundy?

Now Bundy is saying that to the Pacific Patriot Network.

I predict we'll be hearing that from the Pacific Patriot Network in a few days when ultra-ultra-extreme whack-jobs show up. Then a few days after that, etc, etc...

this would make a great skit on Saturday Night Live
Bill Mc Kirgan

Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Jan 10, 2016 - 05:59am PT
A perfect storm of ignorance with concentric rings of intolerance, disgust, and indignation.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jan 10, 2016 - 06:34am PT
I'm taking over the Camp IV bathrooms, who is with me?
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 10, 2016 - 07:04am PT
There are two sides to every story. Why aren't BLM officials in prison?

Forward the video to around 3:15...
http://www.examiner.com/article/blm-burns-land-unsupervised-feds-burn-ranchers-home-and-cattle-alive
dirtbag

climber
Jan 10, 2016 - 08:01am PT
No thanks.
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 10, 2016 - 08:25am PT
Not that I like the idea of taking over buildings, but a lot of folks are fed up with the duplicity of government.

Hammonds get 5 years in jail for burning 140 acres.

BLM purposefully burns range, feed, and cows - nothing.

BLM fences off springs and wells they have no rights to - nothing.

EPA causes a spill into the Animas River, willful negligence, with prior knowledge of the risks of digging into the Gold King mine - nothing.

I could go on and on with examples of the government breaking their own laws, with no consequences - especially with fires resulting in uncompensated damages to private citizens.

Why are people around the west mad? Gee, let me think...
d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
Jan 10, 2016 - 08:38am PT
Modernity.

Behave accordingly.

WBraun

climber
Jan 10, 2016 - 08:52am PT
Dave -- "Why are people around the west mad? Gee, let me think... "

Because like I said all along they're clueless brainwashed American hypocrites.

White washed by their stupid irresponsible spineless main stream media.

Then they come here and spew endlessly like stoopid parrots what their front page media tells them.

What a cesspool .....



jonnyrig

climber
Jan 10, 2016 - 09:01am PT
Dave has a point with the river thing. I pointed out the hypocrisy of this site alone, some other bullshit thread vs the river spill thread.

I was told, give it time. The people here will come around and be upset about the government f*#k-up.

Well, not yet. I don't think that thread has topped 100 posts yet. And how many posts has this thread got?

Y'all are part of the problem. Here to point out how stupid a bunch of armed white guys are, and simply trusting the government that f*#ked up the river over there in the first place to get things right the second time around. Wait wait wait... it's the MINER's fault, right? Another bunch of poor, uneducated middle-aged white guys, yeah?

Course, there are other threads where you bitch about getting tooled, so I guess what it is, is that you don't give a rats ass until it happens to you. Welcome to America! F*#king classic.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 10, 2016 - 09:05am PT
Just like that, the Pacific NW Militia went home.

It seems the Bundy gang wasnt their cup of tea.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jan 10, 2016 - 09:15am PT
http://www.detroitnewstime.com/regional/116207-hammond-family-who-inspired-oregon-standoff-‘scraped-relative-dusty’s-skin-raw’.html
jonnyrig

climber
Jan 10, 2016 - 09:22am PT
Just wait 'til Trump gets in! He'll fix everything...

http://www.detroitnewstime.com/regional/116726-muslim-woman-56-kicked-out-of-donald-trump-event-and-booed-by-audience-after-standing-in-silent-protest-when-he-suggests-syrian-refugees-are-affiliated-with-isis.html
dirtbag

climber
Jan 10, 2016 - 09:22am PT
EPA causes a spill into the Animas River, willful negligence, with prior knowledge of the risks of digging into the Gold King mine - nothing.


Epa f*#ked up but let's be clear here, it was NOT the EPA that created the pollutants in the first place.
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 10, 2016 - 09:23am PT
Let's be clear about that - there weren't environmental laws or even knowledge in the 1890's - 1920's when the mine was built.

Come on...
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 10, 2016 - 09:26am PT
The reason we socialize past pollution is because society benefited greatly from the industrial revolution, prior to knowledge of the effects.

Now both metal and coal mining companies pay a severance tax on every ton of ore / coal mined to pay for reclamation of abandoned mines. No one mentions that...
jonnyrig

climber
Jan 10, 2016 - 09:51am PT
In some regards, yes.
jonnyrig

climber
Jan 10, 2016 - 09:54am PT
Wait wait wait... it's the MINER's fault, right?

Four posts later...


Epa f*#ked up but let's be clear here, it was NOT the EPA that created the pollutants in the first place.

rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Jan 10, 2016 - 09:54am PT
"Frankly, I don't want my land – which includes all the federal land in the West – turned over to people who behave like you. I want to be free to hunt, fish, hike, ride my horse, my mountain bike or all-terrain vehicle, to picnic, camp, and to bird watch on the nation's vast tracts of federal ground, and I don't want to have to ask for your permission to do so.

"Your protest is nothing more than an elaborate tantrum conducted with firearms. If you actually won claim to any public lands, I think you'd intimidate and bully others the way you and your followers did in Nevada, and the way you are doing now. Furthermore, your family owes me and 320 million of my fellow Americans more than a million dollars in back grazing fees for using public land without paying your fair share.

"When I cut firewood on nearby Forest Service land, I purchase my 10-cord, personal use permit. I pay my camping fees. I buy my hunting license. I pay to park and use ramps on wild rivers where I kayak. I pay fees because they are used to improve recreation opportunities for everyone.

So I want you to go home and start paying me and your fellow citizens what you owe us. That's what good citizens and neighbors do.

—Chris Dempsey
http://www.hcn.org/articles/im-not-so-different-from-the-bundys-heres-what-id-like-to-say-to-them
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 10, 2016 - 09:57am PT
Now both metal and coal mining companies pay a severance tax on every ton of ore / coal mined to pay for reclamation of abandoned mines. No one mentions that...

Severance taxes are pretty low in some states. In Nevada, for instance, it is
20¢ per barrel of oil or per 50,000 cubic feet of natural gas, as appropriate.
Fee charged for oil or gas drilling may not exceed $200 per permit.

Can you repair the environmental damage caused by an oil field for $200?

http://www.ncsl.org/research/fiscal-policy/2011-state-severance-tax-collections.aspx
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 10, 2016 - 10:09am PT
Have you ever seen a wellpad after it has been reclaimed?

Did I say anything about oil and gas?

Back on topic - Bundy is a d#@&%e. The Hammonds have legal grazing permits and water rights. Different situation. What do they do about the BLM breaking the law?
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 10, 2016 - 10:12am PT
From tampons to french vanilla creamer: Armed Oregon militants update their occupation wish list

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/from-tampons-to-french-vanilla-creamer-armed-oregon-militants-update-their-occupation-wish-list/



http://twitter.com/jjmacnab/status/685960657225793536/photo/1

AND

... rabid anti-government partisan Ammon Bundy deigned to accept a $530,000 small-business loan from that same government in 2010. The loan's guaranteed, and could cost taxpayers $22,419. Whether or not he's paid it back is unknown, at least to me. (He reportedly declined to answer emails on the subject.) But clearly his anti-governmental passion has limits. He thinks the federal government is way too big, but the part of it that lends money to folks like him is all right.

Bundy's family also benefited from the federal government in other ways. For one, if you grow cattle you have to feed and water 'em. Private landowners tend to charge a significant fee to let you graze your animals on their land. The feds charged Bundy's family a small fraction of the private market rate. (The Government reportedly charges 93% less than private landowners.) Bundy's father showed his gratitude by refusing to pay even that, as I understand it.]

Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 10, 2016 - 10:13am PT
The mine I work at pays 25% of our revenue in property and "mine-by-proceeds" tax. Plus severence taxes. Plus income tax.

How much should a mine pay to cover historical and current societal costs?
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 10, 2016 - 10:17am PT
And some coal companies sell their product at very low prices to their own subsidiaries in order to reduce royalties. The coal is then resold at much higher prices.

https://www.rt.com/usa/221211-coal-subsidiaries-royalty-federal/
jonnyrig

climber
Jan 10, 2016 - 10:17am PT
A potential mine owner should perform adequate investigation to insure they can cover all reclamation costs before taking ownership of a property. It's like buying a house or a used car. Make sure you know what you're getting into.
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 10, 2016 - 10:20am PT
Do you know CERCLA law?

ANYONE who touches an impaired site is liable under CERCLA.

You volunteer to help clean up an abandoned mine that is discharging dirty water, spend money on that site, EPA can now come after you for complete cleanup costs any time in the future.

Knowing what you are getting into is often impossible in terms of liability, which might change when the rules change in the future.

Only huge mining companies can afford to play in this game.



Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Jan 10, 2016 - 10:30am PT
Gone on now for too long

the impromptu sleep-over in a federal shack. . .Why not just leave them alone?

No coverage - no services - maybe a constant sound track? And lights at night?

Let them have the place and fence 'em in, new prison camp?

I will scroll back and during commercials or service interuptions, read more

But as I'm out of my depth I just was seeing what all has been said in 727 or so posts?

Ohhhh! The nature of these aeessholes, as if they have the understanding of how this looks.

For the suburban, condo dwelling masses ,
not to mention the packed on top of each other, urban dwelling swill of humanity, the concepts are all but lost and so moot

Edit :
Wow you folks have made this thread fun
Taking my focus from football,
This post is blind , so I just wanted to say cat shot Is freaky " fear " said it would be cruel
To send the lonely campers sheep
Cruel for the sheep Ha ha
So many great and deep responses too!
There is gold in much of this thread!
Carry on. . .
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 10, 2016 - 11:06am PT

Jan 10, 2016 - 10:13am PT
The mine I work at pays 25% of our revenue in property and "mine-by-proceeds" tax. Plus severence taxes. Plus income tax.

How much should a mine pay to cover historical and current societal costs?



Nevada's mineral severance tax collection is between 2% and 5% of net revenue.
Can you reclaim an open strip mine for 2% of net proceeds from a mine?

From the link I gave, Utah is 2.6% of the value of the metals shipped out of state ( less a $50K exemption) . The Brigham Canyon mine has spent nearly all of that ($400 million) just to stay off the superfund shut down list Since the 1990's. There will never be enough money to do anything like reclaiming it.
The mine produced $1.8 billion in metals and other products last year. That's 47 million is severance taxes. To do that, they tore up 3.57 tons of ore per severance dollar. The mine has had more than one major discharge of pollutants a year since 2000. In 2004 alone, there were three discharges of arsenic laced water totaling over 7 million gallons.

The mine claims great benefit from reclaiming sulphuric acid. But what happens in 2019, or if extended, in 2030 when the mine finally closes? Where will the money to clean up the Sulpuric acid that will leach for 1000 years?
And if mines in West Virginia and Durango are indicative, the mine will continue to leak arsenic and sulfuric acid into the environment for centuries.

In 2013 the mine suffered the largest non volcanic caused slide in American history. They keep mining anyway.

Does severance money help? Probably. But no way does it reclaim the 2.5 mile wide pit, and it can be seen as a way for Kenneccot to say they paid for the reclamation and avoid future liability. If they ever stop mining, the place will be a superfund site that will never be reclaimed for any amount of money. It is, btw, currently on the EPA superfund index list.

Go to Butte, Montana and go swim in the pretty green lake at the bottom of their pit let us know how that goes.
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 10, 2016 - 11:13am PT
Severance taxes aren't for existing mines - they are collected to pay for abandoned mines.

Mines that are in production have reclamation bonds in place governed by NEPA and administered by the state.

Mines like Bingham will treat water forever and take decades to reclaim - paid for by the parent companies. The bonds are intended to cover the cost if the company goes bankrupt.


Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 10, 2016 - 11:23am PT
Bigham is run by a subsidiary that will cease to exist when the mine shuts down in 3 or 14 years.
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 10, 2016 - 11:23am PT
Or, you know, we can pretend that we don't need beef from ranchers, food from farmers, or any of the minerals that miners provide.

'cause it seems like that is the agenda being pushed by the BLM, USFS, and the EPA.

And some here.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 10, 2016 - 11:26am PT
Or, you know, they can pay the same fees that other ranchers who comply with the law and have to compete with these entitled clowns pay.
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 10, 2016 - 11:28am PT
The Hammonds do. They pay what they are required to by law.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 10, 2016 - 11:35am PT
'cause it seems like that is the agenda being pushed by the BLM, USFS, and the EPA

The agenda is you have to clean up your own sh#t and don't push off you responsibilities just because it makes you rich

'the Bingham mine has polluted groundwater far beyond the confines of the mine. Who pays for that?

Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 10, 2016 - 11:37am PT
The Hammonds do. They pay what they are required to by law.

The Hammonds lit a fire to cover up wholesale deer poaching. Let's not forget that.

They aren't the innocents you want to portrait.

And they got sentenced the minimum the law demands. It's a crap law as written. Congress should change that. But they got what the law said they should get.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 10, 2016 - 11:40am PT
Dave, the Hammonds' problem is mandatory sentencing laws. Laws that were pushed through by right wing politicians so they could look tough for the voters. Laws that conservatives loved as long as they were applied to city dwellers who liked to snort cocaine. Now that it comes back to bite them on the ass, it's hard to feel a lot of compassion for them.

The BLM is not perfect. But if you have a link to information about the BLM fencing off springs that they don't have title or rights to, that would be interesting.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 10, 2016 - 11:47am PT
Here's a link.

http://burnstimesherald.info/2014/04/30/walden-discusses-fencing-issue-with-ranchers-blm/

Note that the issue was that it was the BLM's RESPONSIBILITY to fence no grazing zones.

The ranchers didn't want to pay for it.

Rep. Greg Walden wrote the regs.
John M

climber
Jan 10, 2016 - 11:51am PT
This is an interesting article.

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/occupied-oregon-wildlife-refuge-known-for-listening-to-ranchers/

Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Jan 10, 2016 - 12:12pm PT
“Whenever you hear a man speak of his love for his country, it is a sign that he expects to be paid for it.”

— H.L. Mencken
jonnyrig

climber
Jan 10, 2016 - 12:38pm PT
Only huge mining companies can afford to play in this game.

I agree. And it kinda sucks ass, since I really enjoy getting out and prospecting.

I don't feel a whole lot of sympathy for most ranchers either, due directly to their attitudes toward me when I have been out hunting and/or prospecting.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 10, 2016 - 12:40pm PT
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel"

~ Samuel Johnson April 7, 1775 as quoted by Boswell.

(Coincidentally the date of Paul Revere's first ride to warn Congress in Concord, not the famous one 11 days later.)
dirtbag

climber
Jan 10, 2016 - 12:43pm PT
Epa f*#ked up but let's be clear here, it was NOT the EPA that created the pollutants in the first place.


Johnny and Dave,

Sorry if this inconvenient fact flies in the face of your little libertarian/government bashing fantasy.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 10, 2016 - 12:46pm PT
Or, you know, we can pretend that we don't need beef from ranchers, food from farmers, or any of the minerals that miners provide.

here we go, play the we-need-them-so-badly card. We hear that whine in California all the time from farmers. Farmers are 2% of our economy. There is no food shortage, there is no beef shortage. In fact raising beef on these desert-like ranges is incredibly inefficient, if we stopped the BLM welfare to ranchers it might stop.
jonnyrig

climber
Jan 10, 2016 - 01:07pm PT
Sorry if this inconvenient fact flies in the face of your little libertarian/government bashing fantasy.

That is sooo not it. What, you think I'm stupid enough not to recognize the cause of the initial damage? No, I fully recognize that mining (and ranching) can have serious negative impacts to the environment.

In this case (regarding the river) it really pisses me off that basically, the EPA and the rest of the majority of the country is basically shrugging their shoulders and going "Oops." You and me, as private citizens, would have basically had our lives ruined had we performed to such poor standards of operation. In addition, the local opposition to superfund designation there is also a giant kettle of bullshit as well.

Bullsh#t, all around us. Dumb f*#king government actors, idiot f*#king citizenry that just perpetuates the f*#king apathy of it all. In both cases, the morons are in the minority; but they create the majority of f*#k-ups, and it seems that those of the "educated" intelligent variety don't have the sac to step up and take care of business. Instead, they do the very thing that's happening here on this website: bitch about from their couch. No action.

Come to think of it, that's exactly how groups like ISIS etc come to power. They get off their asses and take up arms. If the militias ever find enough common ground to group up, you f*#king pansies are toast, cause you don't have the balls enough to stand up against them.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 10, 2016 - 01:10pm PT
Why....that certainly seemed like a well reasoned response....
dirtbag

climber
Jan 10, 2016 - 01:12pm PT
Yep, Lorenzo, that's about what I expected.
jonnyrig

climber
Jan 10, 2016 - 01:15pm PT
whatever.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 10, 2016 - 01:16pm PT
Note that the issue was that it was the BLM's RESPONSIBILITY to fence no grazing zones.

The BLM needs to build those fences. And they need to be given resources to build those fences.

And ranchers need to stop destroying BLM fences, such as the Hammonds did.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 10, 2016 - 01:26pm PT
Sure Chief, whatever you say, cuz you put it on the internet, it instantly became a fact. That fairy tail has already be debunked
John M

climber
Jan 10, 2016 - 01:34pm PT
Come to think of it, that's exactly how groups like ISIS etc come to power. They get off their asses and take up arms. If the militias ever find enough common ground to group up, you f*#king pansies are toast, cause you don't have the balls enough to stand up against them.

a gun doesn't make you tough. It makes you scary, but that ain't necessarily tough. I know plenty of tough liberals. And many of them have served in the military. I also know many who own guns and hunt. Don't let the caricatures fool you.

Come on RJ.. you are smarter and wiser then that. You are letting people get under your skin.
jonnyrig

climber
Jan 10, 2016 - 01:49pm PT
Never said a gun makes anyone tough. I dont believe i said anything about liberal vs conservative. Maybe i should clarify- the majorrity of people in any given place seem to be apathetic, in that they will let an armed minority push them out of house and homeland, not taking up arms against them.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 10, 2016 - 01:51pm PT
In this country, the majority gets its choices in congress.

Trying to do it at gunpoint is insurrection, and has been since the whiskey rebellion.
John M

climber
Jan 10, 2016 - 02:27pm PT
Okay.. thanks for clarifying RJ.. I'm glad that you realize that it is not a left or right issue.


Locker.. I believe Ron is themaster.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 10, 2016 - 03:02pm PT
If The Mastur is Ron, why does he write so much more good than Ron? False flag?
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 10, 2016 - 03:02pm PT
"The Hammonds lit a fire to cover up wholesale deer poaching. Let's not forget that."

Then why weren't they charged with poaching?

Explain that one...

monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 10, 2016 - 03:07pm PT
This event did not get reported for quite some time and the evidence was long gone. They admitted to starting the fire, but claimed it was to burn invasive species.
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Jan 10, 2016 - 03:09pm PT
"The Hammonds lit a fire to cover up wholesale deer poaching. Let's not forget that."

Then why weren't they charged with poaching?

Explain that one...

My understanding is that the poaching charge was based on witness testimony only and could not be proved...apparently the evidence went up in smoke.

Time to call in these guys to take care of the situation...http://blackwaterus.com
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 10, 2016 - 03:12pm PT
So... John Q. Liberal assumes and convicts of poaching on the basis on one supposed eye witness who the courts would not accept as sufficient proof.

There ya go...

Poaching.

Yup.

But who cares about the BLM setting fires to burn out ranchers and murder cows.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 10, 2016 - 03:23pm PT
I thought the fine folks at Blackwater were xe and now Academi.

They define themselves as

a global provider of sustainable training solutions and secure logistics management.
Sounds pretty benign. Everybody needs sustainable solutions.

Keep changing your name and nobody will figure out you are actually ISIS.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Jan 10, 2016 - 03:24pm PT
wow dave that sounds premeditated. care to cogitate a little more for us on the central majordomo at the head of the BLM conspiracy? what should WE, 'murrican rock climbing folks, do about it? surely you are engaged productively outside of ST.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 10, 2016 - 03:27pm PT
Locker.. I believe Ron is themaster.

Cat sh#t, dog sh#t, same thing
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Jan 10, 2016 - 03:39pm PT
My "Blackwater" suggestion was tongue-in-cheek...but can you imagine the irony of the Feds using Blackwater to expel Ammon & the his anti-government, new-age militia from a wildlife refuge that was created by Teddy Roosevelt in 1908?

If any group should lay claim to this land it would be the Paiutes who have clearly denounced the militia...
The governing council of the Burns Paiute Tribe, an Indian nation in Harney County, declared the occupiers were endangering the tribe's history by their presence and called on them to leave. Tribal chair Charlotte Rodrique went on to explain that the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service was the protector of traditional Burns Paiute religious and archaeological sites in the area and that the displacement of federal authorities put such locations at risk.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 10, 2016 - 03:46pm PT
I'm curious as to exactly how and where Mr. Bundy was hit by a Ford LTD. He doesn't really say above.

AND


Then why weren't they charged with poaching?

Smoke and mirrors? The evidence disappeared and they refused to incriminate themselves?

Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 10, 2016 - 03:54pm PT
But who cares about the BLM setting fires to burn out ranchers and murder cows.

I looked up murder. The definitions I read only apply to humans.

Good thing, because otherwise ranchers would be charged with murder for every cow they sent to slaughter.

Rhetoric is fun.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 10, 2016 - 03:58pm PT
wildlife refuge that was created by Teddy Roosevelt in 1908?

You mean. "Speak softly and carry a big stick" Teddy Roosevelt?
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Jan 10, 2016 - 04:07pm PT
Yup...

Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 10, 2016 - 04:54pm PT
Oh.

I thought you meant this guy.

tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Jan 10, 2016 - 05:23pm PT
No but that dude might be in the compound with the other loons
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Jan 10, 2016 - 06:47pm PT
They're cryin' for food, and 'French Vanilla' coffee creamer.
Now's the time for the Feds to surround the place
and let nobody in or out.

Starve the bastards out.

Oops!

I meant STARVE the bastards.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 10, 2016 - 07:08pm PT
They are also trying to get tampons donated. Damn, its been almost a month already?
Norton

Social climber
Jan 10, 2016 - 07:15pm PT
Little Debbie Snacks too
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 10, 2016 - 07:44pm PT
French vanilla?!

Seriously?

Sounds like they're going all Brokeback Mountain there. NTTAWWT
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 10, 2016 - 07:53pm PT
Gaming supplies and slippers.


Brats sound like a bad idea.
WBraun

climber
Jan 10, 2016 - 08:02pm PT
And all you hypocrites cry like little girls here on internet forums masquerading as tough guys ....
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Jan 10, 2016 - 08:02pm PT
Boxers, M,L & XL...you can't make this sh*t up...I would have thought "whitey tightys" for sure.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 10, 2016 - 08:05pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 10, 2016 - 09:40pm PT
I think this particular horse died about a week ago.....

MisterE

Gym climber
Small Town with a Big Back Yard
Jan 10, 2016 - 09:46pm PT
Dammit! Forgot the Miracle Whip for my baloney sandwiches - good thing we brought lots of WHITE BREAD.

That gives me some good wife complaints for my time with the boys, anyhoo...

Oh, and could y'all come through for me with a jar or two...
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Jan 11, 2016 - 05:11am PT
Hope they aren't missing out on the football playoffs..
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 11, 2016 - 05:12am PT
fear posted
I think this particular horse died about a week ago.....


For so long as brave, armed white men are willing to stand up against a straw man of tyranny we shall vigilantly bear witness.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Jan 11, 2016 - 06:28am PT
Wow!- that wish list...

Brave patriots, please use the chisel point markers you've requested, sign this document that exhibits your great sacrifice and know that, in the pantheon of rebellion, this document will stand with the Magna Carta and The Declaration of Independence.

Actually- other than the cigs and chew, I think this list was poached from a girls, college cheer team.

Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Jan 11, 2016 - 06:52am PT

Ok, other than the cigs and chew, it's pretty close, although the girls come off a little less demanding and a bit tougher.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 11, 2016 - 06:59am PT
And all you hypocrites cry like little girls here on internet forums masquerading as tough guys ....

Unlike the revolutionaries that are in dire need of throw rugs.
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Jan 11, 2016 - 07:01am PT
Nancy Boi Rebellion.

patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jan 11, 2016 - 09:16am PT
lets starve them and hope for Donner party type situation.

a few of those fat fvcks look like good eats.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Jan 11, 2016 - 09:20am PT
now wait a minute, sliced cheese?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 11, 2016 - 09:20am PT
So maybe the revolution will be televised? This affair was.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Jan 11, 2016 - 09:31am PT
Okay - I'm in.


These men are NOT womanly men, you men who are suggesting that much. How do I know? They spelled "Aprons" incorrectly on the wish list.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 11, 2016 - 09:40am PT
To be fair, they listed shaving creme and ice scrappers.
jonnyrig

climber
Jan 11, 2016 - 09:56am PT
^^^ for shaving their legs, no doubt.

Somehow, I don't get the impression they're really prepared to stay long-term. Guess they failed to watch "Preppers" before the big operation. Probably because those kind of people are a bit too extreme.
John M

climber
Jan 11, 2016 - 10:11am PT
This is I feel another very well written article.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2016/01/11/3737719/rancher-history-oregon/

before you jump to conclusions, you should read it. In one part one of the main ranchers in the area says how he believes the Hammonds were railroaded. It made me think because he sounds like a well reasoned person.

We need to rethink mandatory sentences and have some oversight. We can't go back to the good ol boys days when the wealthy bought judges and got off of everything. But we also shouldn't be having these forced sentences. Somehow reasonable people need to come to the forefront.

This area actually worked out a compromise solution. It likely was a very contentious and difficult process, but they succeeded. I know a little of what that is like because I lived 25 years in Yosemite and have had to deal with the park service, while not being part of the park service. Sometime they were very heavy handed and showed no concern for the little guy.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 11, 2016 - 10:27am PT
Werner, are you irritated because you are trying to quit smoking?

Try those E cigarretes. It takes about a week to get used to them, but after that you will never go back to tobacco. It is super cheap, too.

Dave was posting a lot of environmental crap a few pages back. I know a fair amount about that, because my wife is a big cheese in the state DEQ. I've heard all kinds of crazy maneuvering to avoid paying for cleanups. When nobody can be found, Superfund often kicks in. It was created to clean up really bad old polluted areas where the original owner can't be found. They do a lot of good, but some areas are nigh impossible to clean up.

The spill into the Animas River was caused by a backhoe accidentally opening a drift that nobody knew was there. Acid mine drainage is a huge problem in parts of the west.

It isn't all EPA. State agencies actually take the lead on a lot of sites. They do a lot of good. They have instituted the Brownfield Program, where you can come in and put in industry on a cleaned up site without worrying about taking liability. That has helped around here, mainly through cleaning up old refineries from the olden days, and allowing new industry to occupy that land after it is all cleaned up or contained.

As for mining and drilling, there are strict laws in all states requiring you to clean up your mess when you plug an old well. I can take you to places that used to be covered with wells and let you guess where they were. You can't find them because it has been reclaimed. Coal strip and gold placer mines are also required to clean up their mess. They push the soil to the side before they strip. When they are done, they fill it back in with tailings and push the topsoil back on. If you want to see some messes, look at old strip mines that were never cleaned up.

In Oklahoma, we used to have a problem with companies going bankrupt, and nobody being there to clean it up. We passed a 1 cent per barrel voluntary tax (that we all happily pay), and since it started, they have cleaned up the vast majority of old orphan wells in the state. It turned out to be a very good deal, and it cost almost nothing. The farmers are happy, the state is happy, everyone is happy.

I remember one field that was drilled up in the 20's. Back then wooden derricks would abut each other, because there were no spacing statutes. It looked like the moon because they let their saltwater run down the land and creeks. Almost all wells produce at least some saltwater. Now we separate it at the wellhead, and properly dispose of it by injecting it in zones that already contain saltwater. Deep zones.

Anyway, I never thought they would be able to clean up this one field. It was just too big. Well, it took about five years, but that land is back to being perfectly flat wheat pasture, and you can't tell that it was ever an oil field.

It is mainly dirtwork, and that really isn't all that expensive. As for modern plugged wells, you can't tell that they were ever there unless there is a marker required by statute.

It is harder to clean up in the arid areas of the west, though. The roads going to the wells, and the pipeline right of ways are scars on the land. However, if you take the long view, the native vegetation will eventually come back.

Really huge mines all have two things in common, though. A hole in the ground and a pile of rocks next to it, as long as it is in operation.

It is a cost we all pay for our copper and other necessary minerals, but when the mine is done, in the modern age, it is reclaimed.
jonnyrig

climber
Jan 11, 2016 - 10:32am PT
Yeah, read the article two posts up. It's a good read.

Incidentally, I do think the Hammonds got screwed in the sentencing, maybe in the whole conviction based on what I've read of the case (which admittedly isn't much). Our justice system isn't based so much on justice as it is on ensuring you get due process. In other words, you get your day in court, your opportunity to prove you're found not guilty (I didn't say innocent, did I?). We assume that's going to ensure justice gets served; but in the real world it doesn't always work that way.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/salvaging-a-lesson-from-the-animas-river-spill-1441841582
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 11, 2016 - 10:52am PT
From the link:
Then came the floods. The winters of the early 1980s saw record-breaking snowfall in the nearby Steens mountain range and smaller peaks bordering the valley. Come spring, the snowmelt pushed the brimming Malheur Lake to a tipping point — which resulted in valleywide flooding. Despite hasty attempts to build a dike, 30 ranches flooded, putting ranchers and their families out of work and, for some, out of a home.

Hank Vogler, a Harney County native, was one of those ranchers.

“Everything I had was destroyed,” said Vogler, who moved his sheep farm to Nevada after the flood, in hopes of starting anew.

Many Harney ranchers, including Vogler, saw this as an intentional move by the government to stealthily force ranchers into selling their land.

I didn't know the government had the power to make it snow at will.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 11, 2016 - 11:06am PT
There is one environmental website that I actually love.

The Environmental Working Group publishes the amounts of crop and cattle subsidies for every farmer in the country who takes a penny from the government.

Here are the figures for Harney County:

These are the disaster payments, for floods, fires, and what not. Yes, the federal government pays them with checks drawn on the U.S. treasury.

http://farm.ewg.org/top_recips.php?fips=41025&progcode=total_dis®ionname=HarneyCounty,Oregon

Note that Hammond Ranches, Inc. was number 8 in Disaster payments. 280 grand from 1995-2012.

The one subsidy that I really hate is CRP. Conservation Reserve Program. That is where the government pays the farmer or rancher to leave certain lands fallow, to protect the soil:

Here are the CRP payments for Harney County. The Hammonds don't show up, so they didn't participate. In my part of the country, the plains, the CRP is a vast welfare system that the farmers use like it belongs to them.

http://farm.ewg.org/top_recips.php?fips=41025&progcode=totalcons®ionname=HarneyCounty,Oregon

I keep an eye on this when drilling on a big wheat or corn farmer's land. To convert it to CRP, they plant native grasses and let it lay. It makes fantastic pheasant and quail hunting land, but basically it is a scam that made sense after the dustbowl, but not anymore, what with no-till and other methods to preserve soil.

The CRP would be like the government paying me to shut in an oil well. As far as I know, it is the only government payment that actually pays people not to work. Welfare is gone for the individual. Food stamps are about the only real program for the poor.

Check out how high the CRP payments are in Scott County, Kansas, one of the best farming areas on the planet. I've sat a fair number of wells in Scott County. That area is sitting on the Ogallala Aquifer, and covered with center pivot irrigation growing wheat and corn. Check out how much money was paid to the biggest farms, which are worth many millions of dollars, I might add:

http://farm.ewg.org/top_recips.php?fips=20171&progcode=totalfarm®ionname=ScottCounty,Kansas

Then there are crop subsidies. Since this is basically dry rangeland, you would think that it would be all cows and no crops, but check out the highest recipients for crop subsidies for Harney County:

http://farm.ewg.org/top_recips.php?fips=41025&progcode=totalfarm®ionname=HarneyCounty,Oregon

Then there is crop insurance. Yes, the government will insure you for cheap if you want it. There isn't much in Harney County. Not many crops, other than cattle feed: alfalfa and hay.


jonnyrig

climber
Jan 11, 2016 - 11:12am PT
I didn't know Werner was into farming...

Rank Recipient
(* ownership information available) Location Subtotal, Conservation Programs
1995-2012
1 Sod House Farms ∗ Burns, OR 97720 $312,557
2 Smith Brothers Ranch LLC ∗ Medford, OR 97504 $290,794
3 Gehrke Farms ∗ Burns, OR 97720 $244,391
4 Broken Circle Company ∗ Hines, OR 97738 $242,159
5 Dry Mountain Ranch LLC ∗ Riley, OR 97758 $197,073
6 Ducks Unlimited ∗ Vancouver, WA 98683 $176,850
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 11, 2016 - 11:19am PT
No presidential candidate has had the balls to oppose the ethanol subsidy, which has long been known to be a bad investment. Why? One word: Iowa.

Iowa is number one in crop subsidies:

http://farm.ewg.org/progdetail.php?fips=41025&progcode=totalfarm&page=states®ionname=HarneyCounty,Oregon

I'm not sure if these figures include the ethanol subsidy, but it has been shown time and again that the ethanol subsidy is stupid. You take corn, by acre the most profitable of all of the main grains, and instead of feeding people, or letting the market sort it out, these REPUBLICANS in the FARMING STATES are all for farm subsidies.

That is why the ethanol subsidy will never go away. We pay for it twice. Once through the government subsidy, and again when we fill up our cars.

It is a thoroughly socialist program, but somehow the corn farmers have it in their heads that they deserve it. In almost any other industry, you sink or swim, but if you are a farmer, and a big one, with thousands of acres, you can game the system big time.

I'll never forget a lunch I had one day. The table was full of hardcore Republicans. Oil MISTER BIGS. One bragged about how he had bought a 5000 acre farm in western Kansas to quail hunt on, and he explained how the CRP payments would make a big chunk of the mortgage payment, so he didn't pay cash, which he could have in a second. Again, CRP is an old soil conservation program that PAYS farmers not to farm on part of their land. I used to go pheasant hunting on a massive grain farm in the Texas Panhandle, and the CRP was the best for hunting.

How these guys act so conservative and at the same time cash CRP payments makes me ill.

Top subsidy recipients in Iowa.

http://farm.ewg.org/top_recips.php?fips=19000&progcode=totalfarm®ionname=Iowa

You can see that it isn't a few hundred bucks hear and there. It adds up. To a LOT. And the most goes to the biggest farmers, basically because of their geography.

The notion of PAYING somebody NOT to ruin their own soil makes me sick.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 11, 2016 - 11:20am PT

I didn't know the government had the power to make it snow at will.

Libtards.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 11, 2016 - 11:24am PT
How do you feel about the ethanol subsidy, Lorenzo? I saw Trump on one of the Sunday morning talk shows say that he was for it. With that, I saw that he was now a for real politician. Not some populist sage.

A total political move. This isn't a tax break, it is actual checks.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 11, 2016 - 11:26am PT
No presidential candidate has had the balls to oppose the ethanol subsidy, which has long been known to be a bad investment. Why? One word: Iowa.

Sad but true, BASE104. At least letter writer on today's opnion page of the Wall Street Journal suggested that we need gluten-free fuel.

John
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 11, 2016 - 11:40am PT
Well, Lorenzo knows one word:

Libtards.

Apparently he doesn't know what ad hominem means, other than having no brain.

I've shown the numbers. They don't lie. Farmers are the biggest social welfare recipients in the country. And all of the big farmings states are red, red, red.

How they reconcile that baffles me.

I have a friend, a reasonably wealthy oil man, who bought 320 acres in farming country. A local farmer had leased a small part of it to plant soybeans. My friend told me that he receives a small subsidy check every year, and he didn't even apply for it.

The day of the family farm ended long ago. For most crops, you need thousands of acres, and the land eventually ends up in the hands of a few huge farmers, who more or less run their counties.

I always check them on the EWG website. They are always at the top on subsidies.

Have any of you tried to buy a thousand acres? Only the wealthy can afford that much land. These guys have huge operations.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 11, 2016 - 11:58am PT
"The notion of PAYING somebody NOT to ruin their own soil makes me sick."

Thanks for digging all that up, BASE104.

We make jokes about the farms in Belgium being nothing but a government-run living museum / socialist make-work welfare program, but government payments to farmers here doesn't look any better.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 11, 2016 - 12:06pm PT
Then there is crop insurance. Yes, the government will insure you for cheap if you want it. There isn't much in Harney County. Not many crops, other than cattle feed: alfalfa and hay.

Half of your crop is insured for free. You pay a small premium for the rest.

And there are livestock subsidies. The Hammonds are #11 in the county (# 1 in the 97722 zip code), receiving $76K.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 11, 2016 - 12:10pm PT

Jan 11, 2016 - 11:24am PT
How do you feel about the ethanol subsidy, Lorenzo? I saw Trump on one of the Sunday morning talk shows say that he was for it. With that, I saw that he was now a for real politician. Not some populist sage.

A total political move. This isn't a tax break, it is actual checks.

Not much in favor of it. Studies show high Ethanol production makes food prices go up. There's only so much corn growing land.

http://news.heartland.org/newspaper-article/2013/01/28/study-ethanol-mandates-causing-spiraling-us-food-prices
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 11, 2016 - 12:13pm PT
Apparently he doesn't know what ad hominem means, other than having no brain.

No. I meant libtards have the power to make it snow at will.

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 11, 2016 - 01:45pm PT
The domestic terrorists are tearing fences down now, on live TV

https://twitter.com/WandaKTVZ
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jan 11, 2016 - 02:48pm PT
I haven't read the arson report...is it true they lit a fire below firefighters that put them in danger?
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 11, 2016 - 03:20pm PT
Lets see, armed group going thru files that contain addresses for government employees. Employees asked to relocate.

http://koin.com/2016/01/11/sources-malheur-data-breach-concerns-fish-wildlife/

As folks from out of town arrived over the past few weeks, harassment of our employees has increased,

Federal employees fearful of more takeovers that put them at risk.

http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/01/06/the-fear-factor-for-federal-workers-as-refuge-occupation-goes-unchallenged/?smid=tw-share


Some folks are skairt.
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 11, 2016 - 03:54pm PT
Base said "The spill into the Animas River was caused by a backhoe accidentally opening a drift that nobody knew was there. Acid mine drainage is a huge problem in parts of the west."

That is 100% not true. #1, all the mines in that area are mapped. #2, EPA had a report in hand dated 2014 from the state DRMS (I think) stating the risks of a blowout and recommending drilling from above the drift to determine the water level and pressure. The report was ignored. Is that not willful negligence?

I'm a mining engineer. I would be personally liable and charged with negligence with that kind of prior knowledge.

RE: CERCLA (Superfund) liability. If you touched a superfund site in the past, you are liable. My company used to LEASE a property and built a treatment plant to deal with water issues. When we dropped the lease we gave the plant to the owner. Some time ago it became apparent that the owner would not be financially viable for longer. Guess who is taking over the treatment plant?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 11, 2016 - 03:57pm PT
Send 'em some lice infested blankets so's they can play Valley Forge!
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Jan 11, 2016 - 04:10pm PT
Could be so.

However, with the fence removal, I guess that when these guys do see their day in court, and it will be on the receiving end, that Destruction of Federal Property is going to put them in the same hotel the Hammonds are registered in.

As amended on September 13, 1994, if the damage exceeds $100, the defendant is subject to a fine of up to $250,000, ten years imprisonment, or both

http://www.justice.gov/usam/criminal-resource-manual-1666-destruction-government-property-18-usc-1361
jonnyrig

climber
Jan 11, 2016 - 04:14pm PT
Would there be any mandatory sentencing involved? And who would object to it then?
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 11, 2016 - 04:15pm PT
RE: CERCLA (Superfund) liability. If you touched a superfund site in the past, you are liable. My company used to LEASE a property and built a treatment plant to deal with water issues. When we dropped the lease we gave the plant to the owner. Some time ago it became apparent that the owner would not be financially viable for longer. Guess who is taking over the treatment plant?

My wife worked for a university before she retired that bought a 35 acre superfund site in Portland harbor. It was a creosote plant.

I'm not sure what the paperwork was, but the university is exempt from future liability after a survey was done and the university accepted an certain dollar ammount of remediation, whereupon the Feds are responsible for either fixing the issues themselves or going after the actual polluters. Most of the future issues will be groundwater related. The area was isolated with metal pilings and a membrane cap with 10 feet of dirt over it. Most of the area is projected to be soccer fields, a rowing center, a baseball stadium, an environmental center, and an environmental resting area for salmon migration.

The rest of portland harbor is years or centuries away from getting settled, PCB's in the river mud being the biggest issues. A whole lots of finger pointing still going on after several hundred million dollars in studies.
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 11, 2016 - 04:21pm PT
"I'm not sure what the paperwork was, but the university is exempt from future liability after a survey was done and the university accepted an certain dollar ammount of remediation, whereupon the Feds are responsible for either fixing the issues themselves or going after the actual polluters. Most of the future issues will be groundwater related."

Guess the EPA wrote up an exception. University still has to pay for something they didn't have any part of causing...

And then trust the EPA will live up to their end of the bargain...

rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jan 11, 2016 - 04:36pm PT
you win the chump award. :)

American-allied nations are secretly helping ISIS to grow - US Colonel Ann Wright

https://www.rt.com/shows/sophieco/185848-us-invasion-iraq-isis/
WBraun

climber
Jan 11, 2016 - 05:04pm PT
Crankpot coward nutcase the loon is the biggest brainwashed creep on this forum and disgusting tool to boot .....
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 11, 2016 - 05:44pm PT
American-allied nations are secretly helping ISIS to grow - US Colonel Ann Wright

Apparently not very good at keeping a secret, no.

http://www.rt.com/shows/sophieco/185848-us-invasion-iraq-isis/


One good comment on the page

ISIS = Israeli Secret Intelligence Service


However, I do believe that the types of pressure that can be put on groups that do support ISIS, that have allowed ISIS to purchase military equipment, that are working with ISIS to buy on the black market oil from the oil fields that ISIS has captured - I think that’s really where ultimately the pressure points are…

SS: Which groups are you talking about? Could you be more precise?

AW: If you look at who is behind the oil, who is behind the oil from those oil fields, where it is going, through what borders is it going - some of it is going up into Turkey, so you've got to put pressure on the Turkish government to stop the flow of oil; you've got to put pressure on the Turkish government to stop allowing these large groups of international fighters that have crossed the border from Turkey for the last several years. I would say, you have to put pressure on the Saudis: the Saudis have been pouring a large amounts of money, as have the governments of Kuwait and of Qatar, into various groups of the foreign fighters.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jan 11, 2016 - 06:06pm PT
patrick compton & crankster: Thanks for the laughs. Glad to see these guys get the respect they have earned.

EDIT:

crankster - I particularly like that image of the bird in the cartoon identified "as the only bird worth watching" which was, of course, the eagle from The Great Seal of the United States.
dee ee

Mountain climber
Of THIS World (Planet Earth)
Jan 11, 2016 - 06:25pm PT
Thank you Vitaly, you are our modern contempory. None of us are qualified to post up as authorities as compared to you.



Wait a minute, what thread am I on?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 11, 2016 - 06:28pm PT
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 12, 2016 - 08:37am PT
Freedom fighters?

Ask JE about what exactly 'che' means. All I know is that the clerks at the register smiled broadly when they'd hand me my change and I'd say it.

monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 12, 2016 - 12:13pm PT
Cows on public lands endanger natural habitat for bears.

http://missoulian.com/news/opinion/columnists/surrounded-bears-hemmed-in-by-cows-on-public-land/article_e7825ac9-a35c-5099-b5f6-00ab921daf00.html

Next to humans, cows and sheep are the most damaging invasive species on public lands.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 12, 2016 - 01:16pm PT
Pigs. Chestnut blight, goats, bay mussel, largemouth bass, Dutch elm disease, Russian thistle, ranchers say wild horses, short grass, some sea stars.

We caused most of those.
Dick Danger

Trad climber
Lakewood, Colorado
Jan 12, 2016 - 02:44pm PT
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 12, 2016 - 03:28pm PT
Yeah, but did they have throw rugs?
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Ontario, Canada
Jan 12, 2016 - 03:36pm PT
Better than smoking them out...
http://usuncut.com/news/ammon-bundy-fined-70000-a-day-by-harney-county-judge/
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 12, 2016 - 04:02pm PT
Guess the EPA wrote up an exception. University still has to pay for something they didn't have any part of causing...

Depends how you look at it. I know the college attorney tasked with the purchase. Remediation the EPA agreed to/mandated was deducted from purchase price. The original owner was a bit pissed when he found he still had liability. Apparently his attorneys weren't as bright. The owner the University bought the land from did not run the creosote plant. He bought the land for spec.

At around the same time, he donated an island to the city for a park that was first a gravel quarry, and then he filled the hole with contaminated dredging waste from the river under contract with the Corps of engineers (PCB's). Turns out he's still liable for that cleanup, too.

His name is on the university business school.
WBraun

climber
Jan 12, 2016 - 04:47pm PT
Nutcase stupor topo forum hypocrites still playing grab azz with some lowly cowboys all while their US govt is running the largest narcotics production facility in the world in Afghanistan .....
Bill Mc Kirgan

Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Jan 12, 2016 - 05:00pm PT
Beep beep! $70,000 / day fines for the leader of the take-over.

I'm glad to learn they will be getting billed for this nonsense and intimidation.

Will this scare the Bundys into retreat?



jonnyrig

climber
Jan 12, 2016 - 06:19pm PT
Is it possible, in a heavy fire season, that those employees, if they were not conducting correct actions, were simply inept, vs malicious?

How many people do you know, out of the crews you worked with, who would have intentionally set fires to destroy property and homes? Were there any that were inept or inadequately trained?

This isn't an attack, it's a question of possibilities, for the editor in chief.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 12, 2016 - 07:32pm PT
Beep beep! $70,000 / day fines for the leader of the take-over.

I'm glad to learn they will be getting billed for this nonsense and intimidation.

Will this scare the Bundys into retreat?

No, they are family of deadbeats. What's $70k per day when his dad owes a million?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 12, 2016 - 07:41pm PT
Still a pretty sizable chunk of change? I mean this is what, day 10? That's $700k right there.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 13, 2016 - 05:40am PT
Is it possible, in a heavy fire season, that those employees, if they were not conducting correct actions, were simply inept, vs malicious?

How many people do you know, out of the crews you worked with, who would have intentionally set fires to destroy property and homes? Were there any that were inept or inadequately trained?

This isn't an attack, it's a question of possibilities, for the editor in chief.

Quite possible. But since when does ignorance not come with consequences? Saying "Oh it was a mistake" doesn't put the stink back in the skunk. The Hammonds are in jail for 5 years and $400k in fines for a mistake.

Others, including government employees should be held to the same standard, and they are not. The video is not the only instance of government controlled burns getting out of control. I'm not aware of any direct employees or their agencies remitting reparations for their ineptitude (or maliciousness)

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 13, 2016 - 05:46am PT
Escopeta posted
I'm not aware of any direct employees or their agencies remitting reparations for their ineptitude (or maliciousness)

It's amazing what one can remain unaware of through a sheer unwillingness to look.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 13, 2016 - 07:02am PT
You just can't make this sh#t up. These pussies are requesting supplies when the reality is there's a Safeway 20 miles up the road and there is nothing, and I mean nothing, stopping them from making a beer run.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

OK there might be one thing stopping them - the fact that they are nothing but a bunch of Drama Queens. It's f*#king hilarious how many stupid supports of them still send them stuff.

Though the boxes of dildos are priceless.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 13, 2016 - 07:09am PT
I love that Steven is still doing enough of his Colbert shtick that I can still pretend he's around.
jonnyrig

climber
Jan 13, 2016 - 07:18am PT
I agree that all of us should be held to the same standards.

Part of those standards come with determining intent.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 13, 2016 - 07:49am PT
Stop sending me D*LDOS!!!

Ol' John actually cracked up a little about the "bag of d*cks".

Can't make this sh*t up!!


[Click to View YouTube Video]




[Click to View YouTube Video]




k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jan 13, 2016 - 08:00am PT
Ain't nothing like "doing good for our country!"

The Daily Cost Of The Bundy Occupation
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 13, 2016 - 08:06am PT


It's amazing what one can remain unaware of through a sheer unwillingness to look.e

No kidding.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 13, 2016 - 08:06am PT
survival - the comments section is pure gold:

We’ll stop sending you dildos when you stop acting like dildos.


HDDJ - I totally agree. He's still Colbert.

I also no longer miss Jon. Trevor took full ownership of the show last week when he called out the stupid f*#king bitch on Fuax for questioning the tears that President Obama shed while talking/thinking of murdered children.

It's his show now, he owns it, and it's obvious why.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 13, 2016 - 09:08am PT
I still miss Jon. Trevor hasn't quite done it for me yet. He needs time to find his voice and his rhythm and I'm willing to give it to him but I'm not fully there yet.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jan 13, 2016 - 09:57am PT
Tuck tail and leave losers...

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/armed-oregon-occupiers-to-reveal-departure-plans/ar-CCuaSQ?li=BBnb7Kz
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 13, 2016 - 10:03am PT
[Quote]
I agree that all of us should be held to the same standards.

Part of those standards come with determining intent.

I have a idea. How about we take feelings out of it. Maybe we should stop legislating how people should act and trying to orchestrate outcomes through over regulation. Maybe we could go back to rules and legislation that protects people's rights and allows everyone the freedom to go about their business as they see fit.

Does it matter whether your neighbor accidentally or purposefully burns your house down with fireworks? It does not. Rather than outlaw fireworks, how about we simply say it's against the law to burn down your neighbors house?
dirtbag

climber
Jan 13, 2016 - 10:04am PT
Does it matter whether your neighbor accidentally or purposefully burns your house down with fireworks? It does not. Rather than outlaw fireworks, how about we simply say it's against the law to burn down your neighbors house?


Um...because it wouldn't work?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 13, 2016 - 10:06am PT
That's a good point. Why ISN'T it illegal to burn down your neighbor's house? This is a gross oversight that needs immediate correction.
jonnyrig

climber
Jan 13, 2016 - 10:08am PT
Yes. Intent definitely matters.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 13, 2016 - 10:12am PT
Matters how?
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 13, 2016 - 10:12am PT
jonnyrig - exactly. which is why these guys get to walk once they leave. Because they never planned the armed insurrection - it just happened!

Erm.. I mean...
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 13, 2016 - 10:19am PT
Maybe we could go back to rules and legislation that protects people's rights and allows everyone the freedom to go about their business as they see fit.

Does it matter whether your neighbor accidentally or purposefully burns your house down with fireworks? It does not. Rather than outlaw fireworks, how about we simply say it's against the law to burn down your neighbors house?

So you want to trample on my freedom to burn down your house?
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 13, 2016 - 10:23am PT
Regarding intent, what is their intent now if confronted by law enforcement?

Are those guns still just for hunting up some snacks?

Armed occupation pretty much defines what their intent is if confronted by law enforcement.
jonnyrig

climber
Jan 13, 2016 - 10:26am PT
If my neighbor launches a bottle rocket that accidentally lights my house on fire, I'm going to expect the dumbshit to be working three jobs in order to pay reparations make profuse apologies to me and my family.

If my neighbor piles a bunch of fireworks next to my house and lights them with the intention of causing damage to my property, I'm going to expect a significant amount of jail time, so that he won't be coming around again, or else I will be taking a bat to the motherf*#ker, if not a 357.

The difference is whether the damage was just stupid, or intentionally malicious. Neither diminishes responsibility; but it dictates the appropriate response.

If you and a buddy are trying to move a large object and his hand slips and it drops on your toe, breaking it, would you respond the same as if he intentionally dropped it on you to break your toe?

Walk into a 7-11 and take something without paying. Now do the same; but with a rifle on your back, solely for the purpose of protecting yourself from those who would stop you. Do you see a difference?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 13, 2016 - 10:29am PT
Why can't we just make it illegal to not all get along?
jonnyrig

climber
Jan 13, 2016 - 10:32am PT
There's probably already a law against it. What you need to do is make three more laws that redefine it and incorporate other identical laws by reference, along with a law that makes you responsible even if you weren't present simply because nobody mentioned your name.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 13, 2016 - 10:44am PT
Why can't we just go back to having no laws but the laws that we need?
jonnyrig

climber
Jan 13, 2016 - 10:51am PT
Which laws do we need? Answers will vary...
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 13, 2016 - 10:57am PT
Intent is really not an issue in civil liability, unless you are calculating punitive damages.

Intent is a component of SOME crimes, it is referred to as specific intent crimes. Murder is a specific intent crime. If the intent to kill was not there then it becomes manslaughter.

Other times just hte act is a crime, regardless of intent.

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/general-vs-specific-intent.html

The SOVCITs (sovereign citizens) believe that you have to have a victim to have a crime, and the government can not be the victim. All kinds of cool stuff becomes possible
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 13, 2016 - 11:18am PT
if intent to kill was not there then it becomes manslaughter

Um... No.

Not only is intent not required, You don't even have to be the person who killed someone to be convicted of murder.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 13, 2016 - 11:51am PT
I agree Lorenzo, there are other exceptions too, I was just generalizing.

Some DUI can be murder without intent
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jan 13, 2016 - 01:47pm PT
More darwin awards for the militia heads....http://usuncut.com/news/militia-leader-shoots-and-kills-friend-in-drunken-fight/
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 13, 2016 - 03:24pm PT
Rancher did not give Bundy permission to enter his land and destroy fence.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/rancher_i_didnt_know_anything.html
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 13, 2016 - 03:25pm PT
Bundy going thru records and will file land transfer papers with the local registrar, ala Sovereign Nation style.


[Click to View YouTube Video]
dirtbag

climber
Jan 13, 2016 - 03:29pm PT
I wonder if the good folks at Malheur would kindly return the dildos I sent, if they are not needed.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Jan 13, 2016 - 03:45pm PT
Community meeting, The Sheriff , Oregon state Rep. Cliff Bentz and rightwing conspiracy nut> Pete Santilli getting kicked out of meeting.....lol..warms my heart.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Backcountry hunters & anglers
[Click to View YouTube Video]
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 13, 2016 - 04:31pm PT
Great post Nita.

Ol' Petey getting booted from the meeting was priceless!

Looks like many of the people of Oregon are getting fed up.
jonnyrig

climber
Jan 13, 2016 - 04:35pm PT

Consider: some anonymous troll posts a video of someone supposedly starting a fire somewhere. That anonymous troll makes the case for malicious behavior.

None of you were there.

Neither were you; but you seem to have your mind made up. Why do you think I ask questions?
jonnyrig

climber
Jan 13, 2016 - 04:42pm PT
You seem to think we're all unfit to have an opinion, since, you know, we weren't there. I may have misread that, though. And thanks, at least, for the consideration.
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 13, 2016 - 04:51pm PT
People with out guns do stupid sh#t too. Like burn out ranches.
jonnyrig

climber
Jan 13, 2016 - 05:03pm PT
I have lots of opinions. That doesn't mean they're right... and believe it or not, some of them have changed based on discussions here. (gasp!)

Sometimes it's interesting to prod the trolls a little.
Bill Mc Kirgan

Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Jan 13, 2016 - 05:24pm PT
I admire the courage of the man who uncovered the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge sign in the second video Nita shared.

After all, he did that without carrying a weapon and did so against those who use firearms as if they are a professional military force. This militia is not well regulated. Their lack of training makes them especially dangerous to the public.

What he did is actually courageous.


Those back country hunters and anglers are an articulate group. I respect their methods and understand they truly care about what this militant group refers to as the 'resource'. I had no idea how significant this place, Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, is for North and South American bird migration.




Oh, and one little take-home message from this thread is that it helps raise a bit of awareness to facial paralysis.

I don't have the link handy, but when I first saw photos of Ryan Bundy I wondered if he was chewing tobacco. I learned he suffered an injury as a child that caused permanent damage to the nerves on one side of his face.

I saw a youtube of him explaining this very matter-of-factly and really appreciated him doing this. He must have explained this over and over throughout his life, and whatever the context was, I appreciated his taking time to answer the question.

Ryan should just leave that bunch because he's the only one who makes any sense in any of few recordings of this group that I've reviewed.

Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 13, 2016 - 05:50pm PT
That Tim Puckett seems like a good dude.
Tim Puckett, the rancher whose cattle graze private rangeland adjoining the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, said he didn't give Ammon Bundy and his band of armed militants permission to enter the ranch Monday afternoon and destroy a publicly owned fence.

"I am very upset," Puckett told The Oregonian/OregonLive.

His ranch hands have already repaired the fence.

"They're not coming onto my place no more," he said of the militants. "If they do, I'm gonna have to do something about it. I don't want them going across my ground."

"I work with BLM," Puckett said. "I have no problem with them." He said government officials told him of their plans to erect the fence, which he said "has not nor will it affect my cattle operation."

"I am a good steward of the land. ... In no way do I feel that I am entitled to the refuge for grazing," he said.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Jan 13, 2016 - 07:26pm PT

Great stuff, Nita!

Starve the bastards. Period.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 13, 2016 - 08:29pm PT
Ok, this is funny.


Shipped discreetly.
WBraun

climber
Jan 13, 2016 - 08:31pm PT
You people are so stupid and no better then those you are castigating .....
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 13, 2016 - 08:36pm PT
For once, Werner, I think you're wrong.
WBraun

climber
Jan 13, 2016 - 08:40pm PT
So next time you're doing something stupid I'll just send you a 55 gallon drum of lubricant and dildos ....
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 13, 2016 - 08:44pm PT
Ship discreetly.
WBraun

climber
Jan 13, 2016 - 08:45pm PT
No ....

It will be all over the news for the whole world to see how stupid you Americans really are ....
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 13, 2016 - 08:48pm PT
That's "we" Americans, O Duck That Smokes.
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
Jan 13, 2016 - 08:53pm PT
Feds seem to be playing this whole thing perfectly, which I didn't realize for quite a while. These nutters are racking up lots of video of flagrantly bad behavior. The longer the Feds sit on their hands the more these nutters pull ever more outragious stunts, all on video. Meanwhile the locals and the public in general lose any sense that these guys have any hint moral highground.

After a month or so these guys will disperse (or shoot one another after a badly thought out dildo joke insulting someone's manhood) and can be picked up one at a time. The trial can be simply them ranting and waiving their pocket constitutions while the feds play tape after tape of them proudly breaking laws.

Their fence cutting antics may get themselves shot first, they of all people should know that cutting a fence you don't own is a shooting offense, no warning shots needed.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 13, 2016 - 09:11pm PT
Their fence cutting antics may get themselves shot first, they of all people should know that cutting a fence you don't own is a shooting offense, no warning shots needed.

What jurisdiction -- federal? , state? Moof?
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 13, 2016 - 09:26pm PT
Reportering of first violence on the refuge.

http://thelapine.ca/79-year-old-bird-watcher-takes-down-oregon-militant-with-old-high-school-wrestling-move/

“We’re hoping this is an isolated incident and we’re asking the elderly not to knock any more militants on their ass,” said the grinning FBI agent.

nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Jan 13, 2016 - 09:48pm PT
*

Feds seem to be playing this whole thing perfectly, which I didn't realize for quite a while.

I started thinking the same thing after watching a video that i put up earlier...


Lorenzo, I think that birdwatcher story is fake.. though i hope i'm wrong.

Edit: Gladly.. I stand corrected ..
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 13, 2016 - 09:58pm PT
Lorenzo, I think that birdwatcher story is fake.. though i hope i'm wrong.

The Lapine maintains a consistent level of accuracy in its reportering.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jan 13, 2016 - 09:59pm PT
nita, see http://thelapine.ca/about/
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 14, 2016 - 05:04am PT
He was checking on young borrowing owls? If the rest of that story doesn't give you pause, that should. Good Grief.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 14, 2016 - 10:17am PT
Want to embrace everything angry, but also want to be federal, what to do, what to do........





HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 14, 2016 - 10:32am PT
This started as an armed invasion of a government building but now it's just a poorly attended OWS copycat on a wildlife preserve.

It's too bad nobody shipped dildos to OWS. They would have been better appreciated.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 14, 2016 - 10:45am PT
Situation might heat up tomorrow. Bundy wants to hold a community meeting but the county is denying him access to county facilities. I doubt many members of the community are likely to be there. Pete Santilli will do a entertaining routine in his new cowboy hat. He reminds me of a city slicker showing up at a dude ranch wearing 400 dollars worth of costume and looking ridiculous.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 14, 2016 - 04:59pm PT
The Portland Weekly Willamette Week had the Bundys on the cover.

And the story that goes with it.

http://www.wweek.com/2016/01/13/bundyland/

And

http://www.wweek.com/2016/01/13/rancher-rebellion-at-the-malheur-refuge-is-nothing-new-just-ask-nancy-ferguson/
jonnyrig

climber
Jan 14, 2016 - 10:42pm PT
http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2016/01/oregon_standoff_answers_to_que.html
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 15, 2016 - 06:14am PT
I have a friend in Portland, and she says it isn't running constantly on the news. The national networks aren't covering it anymore, either.

So hopefully they will just turn off the power and phone to these guys. They can just get cold and see how long they will last.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jan 15, 2016 - 08:07am PT
Why is Werner such a hater? Dude? For someone living in Yosemite and espousing enlightenment, you sure are a bitter little pill.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jan 15, 2016 - 09:48am PT
So hopefully they will just turn off the power and phone to these guys.

I wonder why they haven't already?

It seems like a blockade of the property is in order. No one comes in, no more supplies.

Maybe letting them demonstrate their poor behavior / giving them enough rope to hang themselves will be the easiest way to deal with this situation, but allowing this to go on so long doesn't discourage others from this type of ridiculous behavior.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jan 15, 2016 - 09:53am PT
^^ it is called being white, Mormon and having the Feds being afraid of making martyrs like in Waco

the Feds are giving the redneck mooching Momos a handjob

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 15, 2016 - 10:05am PT
Strange that having their creamer and throw rugs being delivered by a Federal Agency doesn't seem to bother them.

Shouldn't they be doing the Pony Express thing?
Lacey

Social climber
Nevada
Jan 15, 2016 - 11:07am PT
Survival.... You forgot the TAMPONS ... Maybe we should ship them out a few pounds of pot so they can start smoking it and lower their sperm count....,. Lord knows, those people need to quit spawning...... Big Hoedown tonight at 7, stay tuned.....:)
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 15, 2016 - 11:14am PT
Well, now our Freedom Loving Rifle Humping Crew has used government computers to create their own website.

And here's a link.

http://defendyourbase.net/

David Fry even explains that he's using a "BLM computer", except it's a USFWS facility.
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Loco de Pedra

Mountain climber
Around the World
Jan 15, 2016 - 11:53am PT
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/arrest-ammon-bundy-and-armed-occupiers-malheur-wildlife-refuge
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 15, 2016 - 02:50pm PT
Couple of arrests in Burns.

[quote]Shortly after noon on Friday, January 15, 2016, Oregon State Police arrested Kenneth Medenbach, 62, of Crescent, Oregon, at the Safeway in Burns, Oregon. He was arrested on probable cause for unauthorized use of a motor vehicle.

Law enforcement officers recovered two vehicles stolen from the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) had previously reported the vehicles stolen to the Harney County Sheriff's Office.

OSP troopers and deputies from several county Sheriff's offices responded to the scene.
"The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service is grateful for the quick actions from law enforcement," said USFWS spokesperson Megan Nagel. "We will continue to work with law enforcement to recover vehicles bought and paid for by the American people to care for their national wildlife refuge."

http://www.flashalertbend.net/[/quote]

http://www.flashalertbend.net/
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 15, 2016 - 03:16pm PT
Grand theft auto in a constitutional right.

OPB announce it was two vehicles impounded, so presumably at least two arrests.

And OPB said the yeehawdists had photographers on the scene, so presumably they set it up.


He was on a snack run. Things get desperate on the reserve.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 15, 2016 - 03:20pm PT
Was there any classified material on those misappropriated computers?

Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 15, 2016 - 03:32pm PT
Sherrif tweets one arrest.

Harney Cty. Sheriff
Harney Cty. Sheriff – ‏@HarneyCoSheriff

One person arrested related to stolen vehicles from Malheur Wildlife Refuge in #harneycounty.Two vehicles recovered
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Jan 15, 2016 - 03:33pm PT
guess those yeehawdis never played GTA
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 15, 2016 - 03:34pm PT
Did the arrestee have any illicit tampax on his person?

Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 15, 2016 - 03:38pm PT
Now a report that Brian Cavalier, aka Booda, has been arrested in Arizona on an outstanding warrant.

He's the fake marine who also went by "fluffy Unicorn"

http://www.eenews.net/stories/1060030700
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 15, 2016 - 05:14pm PT
The Burns auto-theft arrest also made news on Boise's NBC station tonight, although it was about a 30 second spot.

http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/2016/01/15/police-say-vehicle-stolen-oregon-refuge/78869432/

Figures that it would be the Oregon State Police who get the first arrest.

State Cops of Oregon! I salute you!
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 15, 2016 - 06:43pm PT
I am so saddened that the chat on the new website was taken down because people were being "filthy". I bet is was highly entertaining.
timy

Sport climber
Durango
Jan 15, 2016 - 07:14pm PT
Why is Werner such a hater? Dude? For someone living in Yosemite and espousing enlightenment, you sure are a bitter little pill.

No doubt. What a d#@&%e. It really gets old.


No ....

It will be all over the news for the whole world to see how stupid you Americans really are ....

Why don't you go back to your own country and stop taking good American jobs.

I skim through ST quite often and rarely post. There are a few annoying folks that mostly I just don't agree with politically, but Werner, yer just a frackin' d!ck
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 15, 2016 - 07:19pm PT
^ You don't need an exclamation point to spell duck here.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 15, 2016 - 07:30pm PT


Company Drilling Near Everglades Claims Not To Be Fracking, Just Acid Fracking

nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Jan 15, 2016 - 07:31pm PT
*
*
A bit more info on the Man who stole the government vehicles...Really good read. Check out the part on his new home... Wish there was a picture.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/oregon-militia-standoff-man-arrested-driving-stolen-government-vehicle/ar-BBog1m8

-
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Jan 15, 2016 - 07:34pm PT
Yosemite fracks now..?
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 15, 2016 - 07:34pm PT
Some guy just sent the Oregon militia 55 gallons of lube to go with those dildos

http://mashable.com/2016/01/14/oregon-militia-dildo-lube/#fAOS43Uy8aqw

what good are a bunch of dildos without the lube?
john hansen

climber
Jan 15, 2016 - 08:11pm PT
It is sad they took down a part of the fence around the preserve to try to open the land to cattle, and built a road. It's all about "me". Exploiting and destroying the land. Of course this has been going on since 1492...

I think a thousand birders should assemble, in a non violent way, (yes, I saw the story ) and march into the refuge. This is a National Wildlife Refuge,, we all own it.

Maybe two thousand,, just go in and do some birding, maybe check out the visitors center. If they try to stop you , out flank them , just slowly spreading out and moving forward with masses of people with telephoto cameras. Act as if they are not there. Flash Mob...

All of the National Wildlife Refuge's were established because of where they are, they are critical to maintain important migration stops and wintering habitat. To let these people degrade one, is a shame.

The FBI does not want another Ruby Ridge, that's why I think it up to the birders. :)
stunewberry

Trad climber
Spokane, WA
Jan 15, 2016 - 08:47pm PT
This guy has it right:
http://travislongcore.net/2016/01/09/i-stand-with-linda-sue-beck-the-attack-on-science-at-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge/


I Stand with Linda Sue Beck: The Attack on Science at Malheur National Wildlife Refuge

Linda Sue Beck. It is at her desk that Ammon Bundy, leader of the group of armed anti-government religious fanatics occupying Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, has set up shop. As a federal biologist, like my father was for decades, she works to steward the resources that are held in common trust for all Americans. My stomach turned as the report came through the radio today — approaching a week into the occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge — and I heard the descriptions of the Bundys picking through her belongings and ridiculing her work.

“She’s not here working for the people,” Ammon’s brother Ryan is quoted as saying. “She’s not benefiting America. She’s part of what’s destroying America.”

The occupiers of the refuge poke fun at Beck, her research on fish, and the normal trappings of a research station, including a dried bird in a storage area. They incredulously claim that the bird is “what they’re going to kill people over.” Presumably “they” is the federal government, and they mean to convey that Nature — the birds, the fish, the land — has no use or value.

These sentiments run counter to American history of conservation and scientific land management. The wildlife refuge system was started because the visionary Teddy Roosevelt could see that the continent risked losing its iconic wildlife if every species and every place was fair game to be hunted. Malheur was one of the first wildlife refuges, established in 1908, and became part of the growing field of scientific wildlife management that came to fruition in the United States.

Science and the National Wildlife Refuges are intertwined, with an entire model of species conservation and management emerging from regulated hunting and fishing with wildlife refuges at its core. National Wildlife Refuges are places where pathbreaking scientific research has taken place that has led to the great breakthroughs of wildlife management: research on the impacts of lead shot and its replacement by steel shot, the effects of DDT and its subsequent ban, and of course the impacts of harvest on fish and game populations. I know; refuge names were etched into my adolescent vocabulary as my father’s research sites. Patuxent. Missisquoi. Moosehorn. National Wildlife Refuges are secular shrines to wildlife science and scientific management. Do politics and consensus play a role in their management? Certainly, but the National Wildlife Refuges and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service are built on the bulwark of the science of wildlife and fisheries sciences.

The armed takeover of Malheur National Wildlife Refuge is, therefore, not just an attack on a federal property. It cuts deeper than that. It is an attack on the modern science-based approach to land management and it is an attack on the value and worth of science and scientists in the United States. This should not come as a surprise. The armed occupiers are extremist Mormons — one of them identified himself as “Captain Moroni” (a figure from the Book of Mormon) and Ammon Bundy describes his actions as the result of consultation with “the Lord.” The occupiers are photographed kneeling in prayer at the refuge. In Linda Sue Beck’s office. Attacks on science from those with extremist religious views are now an unfortunate part of the American political landscape.

Swirling around the Bundys is a maelstrom of conservative malcontents that trace their roots back to the “wise use” movement of the 1980s with its decidedly anti-intellectual and anti-scientific take on the management of public lands. Set aside the ownership of the land — Bundy and the self-styled “patriot” militias of the West fundamentally question the scientific basis for land management.

Unfortunately, the ill-informed reporters sent to cover the slow-motion catastrophe in Oregon fall into the rhetorical trap of the Bundys and their anti-scientific talk-radio enablers. When the occupiers blithely talk of putting the land “to use” again (as if scientific research, recreation, hunting, fishing, education, and all manner of public access were not “use”), the CNN reporter mindlessly repeats the trope, implying that the occupiers have a legitimate demand in wanting to work the land, as if it were some sort of de Tocquevillian tragedy that one of the most productive migratory bird stopover sites on the Pacific flyway was not being overrun with cattle by the ranchers from Utah. No, Malheur National Wildlife Refuge does not need to be worked, and CNN should have reporters that know better than to take the claim at face value.

So I stand with Linda Sue Beck and all of the federal scientists who serve to research, protect, and manage our federal lands. I stand with the scientists, who are under siege, by anti-intellectual know-nothings in the halls of Congress, by vapid inciters on talk radio, and now by armed religious extremists in their very offices. It is time for America to stand up as well.

Travis Longcore, Ph.D.
January 9, 2016
john hansen

climber
Jan 15, 2016 - 10:02pm PT
Very well said Travis.

It is an invaluable resource that should be saved for all time.
mynameismud

climber
backseat
Jan 15, 2016 - 10:09pm PT
I stand with Sue and Travis.
Thank you
mynameismud

climber
backseat
Jan 15, 2016 - 10:13pm PT

signed
overwatch

climber
Jan 15, 2016 - 11:25pm PT
Going for the wall of text title?
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 16, 2016 - 06:47am PT
I ate steak last night.

Yum.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 16, 2016 - 06:47am PT
No wall of text, those are well constructed paragraphs, which makes reading easier. Take note madbolter.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 16, 2016 - 06:54am PT
The right of the people, to "well regulated" paragraphs, being essential to the understanding of freedom, shall not be infringed upon.

Survival's new 2nd amendment!!
overwatch

climber
Jan 16, 2016 - 06:57am PT
wot, Wot, WOT!
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jan 16, 2016 - 07:02am PT
I've been occupying the camp IV bathroom since last Sunday. I've got 6 alpacas ranging by the Columbia Boulder and a retarded sheep that stays in my cot. I'm not leaving until Hee-Haw is back on Prime Time TeeVee.

Roll Tide!

P.s. Please send snacks
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 16, 2016 - 07:18am PT

The FBI does not want another Ruby Ridge, that's why I think it up to the birders. :)

Brass Nuts - git yer lens!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 16, 2016 - 07:20am PT
Every time they use any of the government property at the refuge they open themselves to what must be a mounting list of unauthorized use charges. And even just powering up the refuge's computers would be a serious mistake let alone using them - that opens them up to all kinds of additional computer-related charges. And that's the passive stuff; destroy a fence, build an unauthorized road, deface a truck, then ho man, you just open yourselves up to all kinds of serious federal charges. This clearly isn't the brightest bunch ever assembled.
timy

Sport climber
Durango
Jan 16, 2016 - 07:32am PT
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jon-krakauer/fundamentalist-religious-ammon-bundy-militia-oregon_b_8931762.html

The zealot may be outwardly motivated by the anticipation of a great reward at the other end -- wealth, fame, eternal salvation -- but the real recompense is probably the obsession itself.... Thanks to his (or her) infatuation, existence overflows with purpose. Ambiguity vanishes from the fanatic's world view, a narcissistic sense of self-assurance displaces all doubt. A delicious rage quickens his pulse, fueled by the sins and shortcomings of lesser mortals, who are soiling the world wherever he looks. His perspective narrows until the last remnants of proportion are shed from his life. Through immoderation, he experiences something akin to rapture....

-from Krakauer's book Under The Banner of Heaven
overwatch

climber
Jan 16, 2016 - 07:43am PT
thats pretty good writing
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 16, 2016 - 09:16am PT
Shared from a friend. The man is a bit frustrated and angry sounding, but states his case clearly and articulately as to why the occupiers in Oregon are wrong. This is probably the best representation of my thoughts on the matter. It's well worth the read even if you don't agree with everything in it.


http://www.stonekettle.com/2016/01/refuge-of-scoundrels.html



Twenty years after the Revolutionary War, malcontents on the Western Frontier, those who benefited from the newly formed United States but who didn’t want to contribute to the maintenance of civilization, rose in sedition. Farmers long accustomed to doing whatever they wanted without regard for their fellows or the rule of law declared themselves exempt from government – just as those currently occupying Malheur do today. President George Washington sent an army of 13,000 trained militiamen into Western Pennsylvania and Kentucky to explain to those insurrectionists the error of their ways. The Whiskey Insurrection (more commonly called the Whiskey Rebellion) collapsed in short order – and those vowing to overthrow the United States government and shoot down their fellow Americans fled.

And that, my shiny electronic friends is the answer to the question. That was the only time the militia stood in defense of the United States.

Ironic, no?

The Founders very clearly never intended for Americans to shoot down their own government or turn arms on their fellow citizens. And George Washington himself was willing to send the militia to enforce government authority on the land. Unless you are now going to tell me how George Washington was unamerican and ignorant of the Constitution?
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 16, 2016 - 09:56am PT
Survival! Thanks for the link. It provides a very interesting condemnation of the buffoons occupying the Wildlife Refuge.

Here's some more from the article you linked to:

These are not patriots.

They do not believe in democracy.

They do not believe in the republic.

They do not stand with the rest of us against the fall of night.

They believe in guns and violence and brutality. They are a howling mob and nothing more.

These are nothing less than self-declared enemy combatants who intend violent overthrow of the United States government. They fully intend to impose their idea of America, their idea of who is and is not an American, their idea of religion and race and sexuality, their idea of freedom and liberty and happiness, on the rest of us by force of arms or gun us down in cold blood if we will not submit.

They intend civil war.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 16, 2016 - 10:41am PT
Pate Santilli to FBI: We will surround you with unarmed people and we will crush you with constitutionality....fear and intimidation upon this community is intolerable.

But first we'll take and occupy a bird refuge with our guns.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
Jan 16, 2016 - 10:55am PT
Frikkken whitey
sound skeert.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Jan 16, 2016 - 11:58am PT
Not only do they say the federal government has no claim to the land, they're also saying now that the Paiute Indians have no claim either, only cattlemen. They're also picking through a large collection of Native American artifacts which are stored at the refuge.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Jan 16, 2016 - 12:00pm PT
As for the Stonekettle article, he says what I have all along, that rag tag militia stand no chance against the U.S. military and to think so is delusional, therefore the justification of individual citizens with assault weapons is based on false premises.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 16, 2016 - 03:58pm PT
I was wondering whether the Oregon Invaders used the vibrating 5 blade razors when I ran across this:


(Exactly how vibration improves the shaving experience is in question. Last May a federal judge in Connecticut, acting on a lawsuit brought by Schick, issued an injunction prohibiting Gillette from claiming that the vibration feature of its M3Power lifts hair "up and away from skin" to allow for a better shave. The judge ruled there was not enough scientific evidence to prove the claim.)


Shouldn't the shaving experience be taken away from these cowboys and the government and returned to native Americans?

AND

‘These buildings will never, ever return to the federal government’

-said LaVoy Finicum, one of the leaders of the armed occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge

It's about time that these idiots be removed by whatever means necessary.

BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 16, 2016 - 05:26pm PT
They are getting less and less TV coverage. I haven't seen anything about it in days. At the beginning, they talked into a whole cluster of microphones from the different networks. Now they talk into 2 or 3 microphones.

That Pete Santelli guy seems to be the only one posting to youtube. It is hard to find anything current on the matter.

So when people stop listening to them, and they start to get cold and hungry, they will turn into a bunch of pussies.

I'm surprised that they haven't cut power and phone yet. That should be easy enough.
jonnyrig

climber
Jan 16, 2016 - 05:39pm PT
Sometimes it's effective to give people just enough rope to hang themselves. As said earlier, every video they post just gives the feds more evidence.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 16, 2016 - 06:50pm PT
Base104, I love it, denying them the thing they crave most, attention.
It appears the media is helping in this sense.
They can't stay out there forever, contrary to what they have said. Even those clowns have "other" lives to attend to. They were counting on something bigger breaking loose, so they can be seen as the founding Fathers of something else. Passing the baton to other revolutionary's if you will.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 16, 2016 - 07:51pm PT
They can stay there forever. Militias will just cycle in and out. No shortage of people to keep it occupied.

But that would also give law enforcement the chance to arrest some of these guys outside, safely somewhere else.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 16, 2016 - 08:19pm PT
I think this cartoon applies nicely to the members of the Armed Militia.

Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 17, 2016 - 06:47am PT
Read a brief article on it around here. Sounds like its becoming a half-way house for nutbags. I predict that there will be a shooting inside the compound. Too much free roaming agro for that not to happen.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 17, 2016 - 08:01am PT
Escopeta: I like your description of it "becoming a half-way house for Nutbags."

Here's a quote or two & a link to a NYT article on the same subject.

One of the people who have joined the Bundy family on a federal wildlife sanctuary in an arid patch of Oregon is an avowed anti-Semite from Ohio. One is an anti-Islamic ideologue from Phoenix.

Another is an online radio host — also from Ohio — who uses terms like “Obamislamistan.”

Some are militant gun-rights activists, and one is a man who has declared himself to be a judge and plans to convene a “citizens’ grand jury” in order to put the government on trial.

When the occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge began on Jan. 2, it was primarily the work of Ammon Bundy, the former rancher, who wants the federal government to relinquish its lands.

But as the protest has dragged on, it has become a magnet of sorts, attracting strands of diverse conservative movements from across the country.

Some are members of the so-called Patriot movement, an umbrella effort of antigovernment activists that includes groups like the Oath Keepers, an organization of law enforcement officers and military veterans, and the 3 Percent of Idaho, which focuses on the Second Amendment and derives its name from the supposed 3 percent of the colonial population that took up arms against the British.

And of course, they have groupies too.

Nor was everyone in Oregon there because of an antigovernment agenda.

“I do not understand the culture,” said Kristi Jernigan, 44, from Tennessee, who was among the women in the compound’s kitchen feeding the occupation. Ms. Jernigan said she had little interest in politics and had arrived only “to spread love.”

“You’d be surprised at all the different people here,” she said.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/standoff-in-oregon-attracts-supporters-bearing-disparate-grievances/ar-BBohyYP?li=BBnb7Kz
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 17, 2016 - 09:17am PT
Yeah, the only people that thing is attracting are those that are listening for their call to arms and will hear it in the wind.

Kind of like when I'm duck hunting and I think I hear the whoosh of wings behind me and its only my partner farting.

When the people that aren't sitting around waiting to hear the call get involved, nutbag isn't going to be the word people use.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 17, 2016 - 09:45am PT
At least they're keeping the women in the kitchen. Good gawd....
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 17, 2016 - 10:43pm PT
Lavoy Finicum, AKA blue tarp man, is pissed that Arizona state protective services back home has removed four foster children from his home while he's committing high profile felonies out of state instead of taking care of the kids.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/get-the-government-s-hands-off-my-foster-kid-subsidies

OPB and his own account show he gets almost all his income from raising foster kids.
Records show he got $115,343 from Catholic charities in 2009.

“That was my main source of income,” Finicum said. “My ranch, well, the cows just cover the costs of the ranch. ”
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Jan 18, 2016 - 08:39am PT
In that article the author states that he understands a person ought be compensated for acting as "parent," but as I understand it, that job is generally done on a volunteer basis. I mean - any parents here getting paid to parent their children? The money received for foster care is supposed to go for the expenses that come up in a child's life - shelter, food, clothing, class trips, after-school activities, creative materials, medical and dental work not covered by insurance, maybe a pet for the youngster and the care of that pet, toys, a bit of spending money for movies, games and times spent with friends, and maybe a bit toward higher education savings.

If a foster parent can find one penny left to spend on themselves, after those expenditures, they are shorting the child. For it to be a "source of income" - I'm disgusted.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 18, 2016 - 08:57am PT
People have been supplementing their income for years with foster child payments. If they did not pay people the children would end up in the equivalent of juvi hall. In some cases foster parents are great for the child, in other cases horrific abuse has occurred. Hopefully the state authorities are staffed well enough to monitor what is going on. Tarpman got cut off pretty quickly in this case.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 18, 2016 - 09:37am PT
who knew yeehawdists Blaine Cooper's mom was on The Interwebs?

Dad pipes up, too.

patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jan 18, 2016 - 10:40am PT
^ very interesting!
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 18, 2016 - 11:45am PT
When these kids turn 18, they are no longer cash generators and must hit the streets, unless some assistance program can be found.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 18, 2016 - 11:58am PT
Lavoy Finicum and Ryan Bundy have been busier than we thought.

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/oregon-militants-lavoy-finic#m-and-ryan-bundy-travel-to-utah-to-plot-another-armed-showdown/#.Vp1B5qAm-Zh.twitter

[Click to View YouTube Video]
No wonder Lavoy wasn't spending weekends with the kids.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 18, 2016 - 12:11pm PT
Apparently those posts from his parents are fake, Blaine changed his last name to Cooper. But that does not change my opinion on the guys parenting skills.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 18, 2016 - 12:30pm PT
Yeah. He seems upset about it


Check out the comment at the bottom on his fb page.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 18, 2016 - 01:01pm PT
Gotta take the love where you can get it.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 18, 2016 - 04:29pm PT
LaVoy Finicum is convincing some ranchers to stop paying grazing fees and will provide "rapid response team" to defend them (no doubt armed) .

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/oregon_standoff_occupiers_recr.html
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 18, 2016 - 04:58pm PT
The funny part of that, is that one of the largest ranchers in Harney county, the Williams family, got $300,000 just for protecting sage grouse habitat, which consisted mostly of cutting down Juniper trees for grazing ground.

So far, almost tree quarters of a billion dollars of public money has gone for sage grouse habitat protection, most of it going for chopping down Juniper forests and burning sage brush, which not so coincidentally benefit cattle grazing.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 18, 2016 - 05:02pm PT
If you have trouble understanding what the HeeHadists are all about, maybe you should try listening to them in Chinese.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/770643456413085?view=permalink&id=779258898884874
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 18, 2016 - 05:51pm PT
The funny part of that, is that one of the largest ranchers in Harney county, the Williams family, got $300,000 just for protecting sage grouse habitat, which consisted mostly of cutting down Juniper trees for grazing ground.

So far, almost tree quarters of a billion dollars of public money has gone for sage grouse habitat protection, most of it going for chopping down Juniper forests and burning sage brush, which not so coincidentally benefit cattle grazing.

For the record, that figure is WAY low if you count all of ION Country.

I think some people have made the erroneous assumption that just because the local ranchers don't want the armed milita folks around means that they support the government. These people know where their bread is buttered.....
John M

climber
Jan 18, 2016 - 05:55pm PT
I think some people have made the erroneous assumption that just because the local ranchers don't want the armed militia folks around means that they support the government.

These people know where their bread is buttered.....

huh? isn't their bread buttered by the government? that is if they are taking government money or getting cheap leases?
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 18, 2016 - 06:23pm PT
Well, I was just quoting for one government program.

The actual money just for sage grouse from a whole alphabet of government agencies is pretty staggering.

http://www.fws.gov/pdfs/Sagefinalfundingopps.pdf

It's enough that two of the best paid employees of the roaring Springs ranch ( Williams family) are not ranch managers, but an attorney to research grants and a ranch biologist.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 18, 2016 - 06:27pm PT
John M posted
huh? isn't their bread buttered by the government? that is if they are taking government money or getting cheap leases?

Again, when you dig down into these viewpoints you often find that these people very much believe in the role of government to intervene in various ways, it's who they are intervening for that creates the problems. The vast majority of Americans believe in government assistance, just not government assistance to people they think doesn't deserve it.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 18, 2016 - 10:18pm PT
HighDesertDJ! Re your assertion:

The vast majority of Americans believe in government assistance, just not government assistance to people they think doesn't deserve it.


I've never seen that simple truth stated so well! (although I would change doesn't to don't.)
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 18, 2016 - 11:11pm PT
I thought Romney said it was 47%?

But I guess that depends on who your lobbyist is.
rwedgee

Ice climber
CA
Jan 19, 2016 - 07:14am PT
Looks like the rangers are arming themselves as well;

Federal park rangers at the Mojave National Preserve were packing some serious heat according to a government audit. Agents were carrying fully automatic rifles and bought dozens of flashbang grenades in violation of federal rules.

The Department of the Interior’s inspector general found that “a supervisory park ranger arranged for the purchase of Colt M-4 fully automatic rifles” between 2008 and 2010. Park rangers bought nine of these rifles and allowed them to be carried around on duty for three years before being converted to only fire semi-automatic.

The IG also found that “the supervisory park ranger admitted to purchasing and distributing the automatic weapons despite knowing that they violated NPS policy,” and “admitted telling rangers who received the automatic rifles not to display them to others.” The park official also “admitted to, at a minimum, not making it clear to his supervisors that the automatic weapons needed to


Read more: http://www.kfiam640.com/articles/national-news-104668/park-rangers-illegally-used-tax-dollars-14280887#ixzz3xheSajRI
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 19, 2016 - 07:36am PT
That's funny... I know a local CT woods-cop (aka a "ranger") who also just was issued a full-auto M-4 WITH the M203 grenade launcher on it.

They're all surplus coming back from us winning hearts and minds in the middle east.

We did have fun at the range with it although his department doesn't issue grenades... :(

Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 19, 2016 - 07:52am PT
The IG also found that “the supervisory park ranger admitted to purchasing and distributing the automatic weapons despite knowing that they violated NPS policy,” and “admitted telling rangers who received the automatic rifles not to display them to others.” The park official also “admitted to, at a minimum, not making it clear to his supervisors that the automatic weapons needed to

The JTree rangers got big weapons upgrades once the national park money started flowing. It was like watching an afghan find reverse in a Russian tank.

I had to help one ranger put his Mossberg back together one night after he had taken it apart to clean it. Only it was apparently against policy to allow a mere "civilian" to touch his service weapon so I had to describe it to him and let him do it himself.

That was back in the mid 90s Lord knows what weaponry they are rolling with now....
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 19, 2016 - 09:27am PT
The wiki on the M41A does say it is favored for use against terrorists. Sounds like they have the right weapon.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Jan 19, 2016 - 12:29pm PT
Yesterday afternoon I took over Turnbull Wildlife Refuge in Northeastern Washington. My reasons were that I wanted some peace, freedom and liberty and I would NOT be denied. There were a few other visitors, namely a pre-school class that I had to scowl at to get them to leave. I took it over yesterday knowing that the federal staff had the day off on MLK day. I didn't need any stinking weapons, when you can frighten a 4 year old girl just by looking at her, you know your bada$$.

http://www.fws.gov/refuge/Turnbull/

Admittedly, my wife and I probably broke a few rules. Leaving ammonia and urea is more than just foot prints. And we had the nerve to wander off trail in pursuit of freedom. It was only through my exquisite route finding skills that we didn't get lost and become coyote food (I guess wandering off trail is also a violation).

We ran into one government scheme that is set up to render us freedom fighters senseless. No, it wasn't a 12 pack of Coors. The ponds at Turnbull drain underneath the visitors bridge. The smell of H2S is very strong at these points. You see, even in the cold in the depths of the water it is anaerobic, so any Sulfur gets reduced by bacteria which creates a most unpleasant odor. Even the pre-schoolers caught onto this telling each other to "hurry across the bridge" because of the bad smell.

Unlike those dummies at Malheur, my exit strategy was thought out before hand. In the event that I could not get cell service or break into a nice warm federal building, I would have to find my truck, start it up and drive off so I could post to the internet later. Sorry I had no time to post pictures. I didn't see any wildlife, except for scat. Obviously this place, like Malheur is a ruse to take our freedom.





fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 19, 2016 - 12:34pm PT
Did you "tweet" for more snacks while you were occupying?

I occupied several government properties briefly this past weekend as well. What a rush. I will continue to return until my demands are met..... then I'll still probably return...
dirtbag

climber
Jan 19, 2016 - 12:41pm PT
Fear not, golsen, I'm sending you a hefty supply
of dildos right away.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 19, 2016 - 01:08pm PT
I occupied Cap Rock Sunday. Still trying to find my way off. It's confusing.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 19, 2016 - 02:08pm PT
The 9th circuit, which ruled on the mandatory minimum sentence for the Hammonds, has been busy today.

9th Circuit blasts judge who ruled for rancher, boots him from grazing-rights case
By Martha Neil
Jan 19, 2016, 12:10 pm CST
A federal appeals court not only vacated and reversed portions of a judgment in a high-profile Nevada grazing-rights case on Friday but booted the trial judge from the case on remand.

Saying that U.S. District Judge Robert Clive Jones had displayed bias against the federal government and grossly abused his contempt power, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals instructed the district’s chief judge to assign the case to another jurist.

At issue was whether the defendant rancher, E. Wayne Hage, who is now deceased, and his son, Wayne Hage, who is currently defending the case, had grazed cattle on federal land without authorization. Indeed, Jones found that is what happened, the San Francisco-based appeals court said in its written opinion (PDF). However, instead of granting the feds the injunctive relief and damages they sought, Jones took another approach.

“Defendants openly trespassed on federal lands. Rather than simply resolving the fact-specific inquiries as to when and where the cattle grazed illegally, the district court applied an ‘easement by necessity’ theory that plainly contravenes the law,” the 9th Circuit panel wrote in an opinion authored by Judge Susan Graber. “The district court also encouraged defendants to file a counterclaim that was clearly time-barred. … Moreover, as discussed more fully in a separate disposition filed today, the court grossly abused the power of contempt by holding two federal agency officials in contempt of court for taking ordinary, lawful actions that had no effect whatsoever on this case.”

The defendants argued that, because they had water rights, a necessary easement over federal lands to get their cattle to the water was implied. However, that argument is contravened by long-standing precedent, the opinion says.

In a separate opinion that is not published, the appeals court reversed the contempt citations Jones made against the Bureau of Land Management and U.S. Forest Service employees, the Las Vegas Review-Journal reports.

Hage said the 9th Circuit ruling “is a big disappointment, not just for my family but for the entire industry,” the newspaper reports.

“They felt relief at the Jones decision. Ranchers’ rights had been upheld, but now it has all been overturned,” Hage continued. “It looks to me like the 9th Circuit just swelled the ranks of the militias.”

He said he himself is not involved in the militia movement, but feels members’ frustration with the government.


http://www.abajournal.com/mobile/article/9th_Circuit_blasts_judge_who_ruled_for_rancher_boots_him_from_grazing-righ
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 19, 2016 - 06:00pm PT
Boundary law is pretty much settled in this country. The Ninth was just applying that law.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 19, 2016 - 06:27pm PT
Boise NBC local news tonight highlighted a large demonstration in Portland by birders against the Malheur occupiers.

A Portland Oregonian newspaper article goes into details about rallies all over Oregon & even in Boise, by nature-lovers & birders.

Rallies in Portland, Eugene, other NW cities implore Malheur occupiers to go home
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2016/01/hundreds_gather_to_protest_mal.html

I was somewhat more excited to see environmentalists physically in the face of the CowQuida folks yesterday, outside the Malheur HQ.

Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Jan 19, 2016 - 06:53pm PT
The best thing to come out of the 'occupation' is this thread
Norton

Social climber
Jan 19, 2016 - 06:58pm PT

Gnome got the coveted 1000th post of this thread

well done
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 19, 2016 - 07:29pm PT
Tomorrow I am going to occupy a local Federal Post Office. It's easier to receive snacks from well wishers. Other patriots were seen there today as well.

My plan is to buy ALL of the stamps. Commerce will grind to a halt. And I will have plenty of stamps.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 20, 2016 - 09:24am PT
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/01/20/us/standoff-on-oregon-land-inspires-a-counterprotest.html

But in recent days, as the standoff has dragged toward its third week, a new element has been added to the chemistry: counterprotesters who are converging here to denounce the occupying faction — in person at the refuge headquarters — and demand that federal public lands remain open for all. The newcomers include environmental activists, retired federal workers and a couple of long-distance hikers.

“We’re here to say the Malheur is not occupied by the militia — we’re here, we’re on the land,” Kierán Suckling, the executive director of the Center for Biological Diversity, an environmental advocacy group in Tucson, Ariz., said Tuesday during a rally at the refuge. About a dozen people joined him, from places like Eugene, Oregon and Spokane, Wash., and waved signs at passing vehicles...

Since then the Bundys, who have gained notoriety as opponents of the federal government, have attracted an assortment of sympathizers — and, now, enemies. The Malheur refuge is remote, about 30 miles from the nearest town, and yet people like Mr. Suckling were upset enough to make a pilgrimage to ask the Bundy group to leave. ..

Some in the Malheur takeover group have not liked the new incursion very much, as small as it has been. On a recent morning, a spokesman for the occupiers — gun on hip, cowboy hat on head — was calmly addressing reporters at a news conference when a small but visible tussle started unfolding in view of television cameras.

Mr. Suckling held up a sign denouncing the occupation: “Keep Public Lands Public.”

Pete Santilli, a supporter of the takeover who was standing next to Mr. Suckling, grabbed the edge of an American flag that was suspended nearby and tried to cover the sign. Mr. Suckling moved the sign to keep it in camera range. Mr. Santilli moved the flag. The men jostled. “Don’t touch me,” Mr. Santilli snapped, loudly enough to be heard by reporters. “If you touch me once, I am going to defend myself.”

What a he-man!
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 20, 2016 - 10:16am PT
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2016 - 11:07am PT
The ReformedWhores have a few questions for the militia


https://www.facebook.com/internetactionforce/videos/985161414883424/?theater

http://www.reformedwhores.com/

Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 20, 2016 - 11:45am PT
Jon: That Facebook link of yours took me to the funniest little dity I've heard in many a moon.

Thank you!

http://www.facebook.com/internetactionforce/videos/985161414883424/?theater

Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 20, 2016 - 11:46am PT
Boundary law is pretty much settled in this country. The Ninth was just applying that law.

Does Cliven know?

One of the complaints by the Hammonds is that the BLM fenced off BLM land to springs the water rights to which the Hammonds claimed they purchased from the state
Norton

Social climber
Jan 20, 2016 - 11:52am PT

Bundy Terrorists Attend A Community Meeting, Get Chewed Out By Angry Residents (VIDEO)

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/watch-oregon-militants-sit-silently-as-furious-residents-shame-them-for-ruining-their-community/
dirtbag

climber
Jan 20, 2016 - 12:35pm PT
Can't they just quietly gas the f*#kers and be done with it?
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 20, 2016 - 01:28pm PT
One of the complaints by the Hammonds is that the BLM fenced off BLM land to springs the water rights to which the Hammonds claimed they purchased from the state

Water rights do not carry an implied easement of access. If I owned a 20 acre lot that fronts a road and I sell you the back half that carries an implied access easement. Water rights have to have that access spelled out.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2016 - 01:40pm PT
I think I read somewhere that they had access across federal land with 24 hours notice. They abused that, and would take 3 days to cross, basically letting their cattle graze on federal land. The Hammonds are their own worst enemy.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jan 20, 2016 - 01:52pm PT
Congrats to "The Reformed Whores" for their hilarious video. Whenever I begin to despair about events in the U.S., there's always someone like these entertainers to give me hope for the future.
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Jan 20, 2016 - 02:58pm PT
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 20, 2016 - 03:07pm PT
Regarding the title of the thread, has there ever been an unarmed militia?

Probably somewhere in France, but here in Murrica?
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Jan 20, 2016 - 03:09pm PT
Sorry if this was posted earlier.

#daddysworeanoath

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/daddy-swore-an-oath-jon-ritzheimer
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 20, 2016 - 03:16pm PT
Banquo - If you did I missed it.

[Holding Yosemite Big Walls Book]

Daddy swore and oath... an oath to.. to.. head back up onto the big stone and.. and.. [pause] get back on the sharp end and finish that pitch.

I DIDN'T MEAN TO DRILL THOSE RIVETS

End scene.

#daddysworeanoath
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 20, 2016 - 03:37pm PT
I think I read somewhere that they had access across federal land with 24 hours notice. They abused that, and would take 3 days to cross, basically letting their cattle graze on federal land. The Hammonds are their own worst enemy.

I read somewhere the Tooth Fairy really exists and that the Branch Davidians were child molesters. Good Grief.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 20, 2016 - 04:06pm PT

Jan 20, 2016 - 03:07pm PT
Regarding the title of the thread, has there ever been an unarmed militia?

Probably somewhere in France, but here in Murrica?

The blacks in the town where I spent part of my youth ( Huntington, NY) offered a militia company even before the revolutionary war. They were refused powder from the local armory, which still exists and Is two blocks from where I lived as a kid and I passed by every day on the way to school. They kept meeting in the hopes the town would change their mind. The town instead confiscated some of their homes for the village green.

Probably a mistake on the part of the town, as the town militia was essentially wiped out in the battle of Long Island.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 20, 2016 - 04:38pm PT
I watched the video posted above showing the meeting of County residents. They, almost to a person, want these guys OUT.

NPR in Oregon had a speech from the Governor asking for them to do something. She said that she had been in contact with the Dept of Justice and the White House.

One of the best ideas was hatched by somebody at the meeting: Cut off their free electricity and internet. There is also probably a way to cut their cell phones from getting out.

Also, protestors AGAINST the Bundies have been showing up at the refuge parking lot. Anyone want to go on a cool roadtrip?

I'm surprised that nobody has shot Bundy's cows free ranging all over southern Nevada. From the looks of them, they don't get much attention.

Check this out. This is new: http://www.hccommitteeofsafety.org/committee-of-safety---members.html
nah000

climber
no/w/here
Jan 20, 2016 - 08:26pm PT
i dunno... they should cut the electricity and internet off for sure...

but other than that, i hope the feds take a cue from the almost fifteen year stand off of john joe gray in eastern texas...

short version is that johnny joe grey bob was arrested for allegedly assaulting an officer in 1999. after he didn't show up for his court date he armed himself and refused to leave his property for the next 15ish years. with all of the bluster of the oregon blmonauts he threatened that if anyone came after him they should bring extra body bags...

the local sheriff's response: "it wasn't worth it. joe gray has been in prison out there himself, in my opinion, for 14 years."

i think in the age of social media the best thing that could happen to this oregon bag of doorknobs is for the feds and locals to just let them be... let them imprison themselves in some god forsakenish land [at least as far as sustainable human life is concerned] and then let the rest of us get our entertainment from the dildos and drums of lube being sent, the parodies being made and etc.

there's too much entertainment value in this.

you know how they say never negotiate with terrorists?

well, here's the thing... the only thing these dudes wants is either to be martyrs who go down in flames or to be the rallying point that starts a "revolution" [whatever that means].

the most beautiful justice in the world would be to let them have a federal building, in the process letting them imprison themselves and then let the rest of the world continue to laugh at them for as long as they continue in their delusions of grandeur...
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Ontario, Canada
Jan 20, 2016 - 09:14pm PT
Daphne

Trad climber
Northern California
Jan 20, 2016 - 09:37pm PT
^^^Johnny joe grey bob? Really? The name kinda says it all.
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Jan 21, 2016 - 08:13am PT
Just build a razor wire fence round the compound and leave it at that. Great tourist attraction. Buy bags of snacks to toss over the fence.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 21, 2016 - 08:30am PT
Re Banquo's statement:

Just build a razor wire fence round the compound and leave it at that. Great tourist attraction. Buy bags of snacks to toss over the fence.


and dildos.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 21, 2016 - 10:01am PT
Invasive species have no place in a wildlife reserve.
Norton

Social climber
Jan 21, 2016 - 10:09am PT

I am liking the Feds plan more and more as time goes on.

Clearly they are simply, quietly, waiting them out...

It's a long and cold winter and Little Debbie snacks gotta be running low there.

The Feds are playing it cool, ain't gonna be no confrontation, not going to give
the BrokeBack Boys what they want most, evacuation publicity.

Feds know the wimmin are tired of doing the boys work back home and want em back

The locals have had enough disruption and want them out of their county.

The Feds can just do nothing at all and eventually they all gotta leave, and then
they can arrest them quietly, charge em with trespassing and destroying public property, maybe in time to have them join Cliven in the poky for quality time.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 21, 2016 - 10:52am PT
The locals have had enough disruption and want them out of their county.

Don't get me wrong, I don't support these clowns in ANY way. But also, don't believe that there is no support for them in a wide ranging community across the country.

If you actually watch the video from the community meeting on the previous page, you will hear people yelling "Let them stay!", and calling for the FBI to go home, rather than the occupiers.

As I said, I have nothing to say in support of these guys, but to believe that they have no local support in the Burns area is just hiding our heads in the sand.

It's complicated.....
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 21, 2016 - 12:07pm PT
Novelist Ursula Le Guin blasts the biggest paper in the state for its coverage of the insugency.

Uses Loon word.

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/jan/21/ursula-le-guin-blasts-coverage-of-oregon-militias-right-winged-loonybirds?CMP=share_btn_tw
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 21, 2016 - 12:49pm PT

Jan 20, 2016 - 03:37pm PT
I think I read somewhere that they had access across federal land with 24 hours notice. They abused that, and would take 3 days to cross, basically letting their cattle graze on federal land. The Hammonds are their own worst enemy.

I read somewhere the Tooth Fairy really exists and that the Branch Davidians were child molesters. Good Grief.

I was wrong Escopeta, it was not 2 or 3 days, it was 2 or 3 weeks

Marvin Plenert, 80, who served as Northwest regional director for the Fish and Wildlife Service from 1986 to 1994, says the agency tried to accommodate the Hammonds. “We gave them a day to cross through the refuge and they took two or three weeks to do it. They were in your face about everything. They kept pushing the envelope, cut fences, cattle wound up in the refuge illegally.”
:snippity:
Once, however, a biologist employed at the refuge reported, “The Hammonds were aerial gunning coyotes on the Malheur Refuge, which is illegal.” Cameron claims the Hammonds had an airplane at the time. “They were flying to shoot coyotes on their (own) land, and we didn’t have a problem with that.” The biologist allegedly witnessed the Hammonds’ plane “flying low, turning tight corners, and shooting, and it was over refuge property.” The issue was raised with the Hammonds “and they claimed they were not over the refuge.” Cameron says, “There were so many other contentious things going on that was one incident we didn’t push.”
:snippity:
Leading up to the 1994 incident were the death threats. Cameron says, “My wife would take these phone calls, it was terribly vulgar language. They said they were going to wrap my son in barbed wire and throw him down a well. They said they knew exactly which rooms my kids slept in, in Burns. There were death threats to my wife and two other staff members and their wives. My family went to Bend rather than be in the community because it was so volatile at the time. The families of my biologist and my deputy manager family had to relocate as well for a short time.”

“At the refuge headquarters, one of the Hammonds said they would tear my head off and sh#t down the hole. One of the Hammonds told my Deputy Manager, Dan Walsworth, they were going to ‘put a chain around his neck and drag him behind a pickup.’” Cameron says it became practice “never to meet with the Hammonds alone and usually to have a law enforcement officer present.”

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/oregon-ranchers-who-sparked-standoff-threatened-to-wrap-officials-son-in-barbed-wire-and-drown-him/
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 21, 2016 - 05:19pm PT
Don't get me wrong, I don't support these clowns in ANY way. But also, don't believe that there is no support for them in a wide ranging community across the country.

Trump, Palin, little green men, ghosts and Sasquatch all enjoy support in a wide ranging community across the country as well. No accounting for stupid.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 21, 2016 - 05:49pm PT
Not to mention Powerball.

"Wide ranging" is a loaded criterion
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 21, 2016 - 06:02pm PT
The Wildlife Refuge employees posted an open letter to the public on Facebook today.

From: The Staff of Malheur National Wildlife Refuge
To: Our Friends, Partners, and the American Public

Dear Friends,
Many have asked us to comment on the ongoing situation at Malheur NWR. We have refrained because we care deeply for the community, and want to ensure our words do not inflame an already heated situation. However, we believe it is important that our views and position are known.

We believe many in the media (as well as those sympathetic to the illegal occupiers) were surprised to hear that the community—while frustrated with the Hammond situation—did not leap to the support of the militants. We are not surprised.

For over 100 years, our Refuge employees have been members of this community. We study, watch our kids play basketball, worship, commune, and interact with our fellow Harney County citizens—not as a ‘we vs. they’—but as an ‘us.’

In a community with nearly 40% of working adults engaged in some form of government, we are all touched or involved in the public process. In Harney County, that means we talk. We have cups of coffee. We have arguments. Together we knit our brows, and together we knit scarves. We understand what those currently occupying the Refuge don’t understand---that Harney County isn’t afraid of tough talk.

We can have effective disagreements and either find resolution, find compromise, or simply agree to disagree. But we do it with respect for the rule of law, and know that our areas of agreement and cooperation are infinitely more powerful than the differences we may face. Mostly, we face those differences together with open dialogue and open gates—not intimidation and threats. We have access to each other, because we are not afraid to confront difficult situations or have difficult conversations.

It pains each of us that we are missing our obligations to you—as church leaders, as 4-H advisers, as friends, and as school volunteers. We hope to be back soon and pick up where we left off.

From the bottom of our hearts, we thank you for your support. We know (as you do too) that it is not our Refuge that has been occupied; this is Harney County’s and America’s Refuge.

We are excited to be part of the eventual healing process for our community. We believe that this difficult situation will lead to even stronger bonds between the Refuge and the community that has supported us. We feel for you, because we are you.

We will get through this—because:
We. Are. Harney. County.
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/malheur_national_wildlife_refu.html
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jan 21, 2016 - 06:08pm PT
Now is the time for the Feds to go in and arrest Cliven Bundy.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 21, 2016 - 07:07pm PT
I was wrong Escopeta, it was not 2 or 3 days, it was 2 or 3 weeks

I was wrong too. It wasn't the Tooth Fairy, it was Santa Claus.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 21, 2016 - 07:42pm PT
Why go in at all? The powers that be are encouraging these strange guys.

All they need to do is cut the power/phone/cell, block the road, and wait.

Eventually the temper tantrum will stop, hunger/cold will take over and they'll be forced to leave.

If there are charges/warrants then serve them later, it's not like these guys are masked.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 21, 2016 - 07:54pm PT
I'd have more confidence in that strategy if they charged Cliven and Lavoy for their previous transgressions
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Jan 22, 2016 - 12:28am PT
Here's the BLM and Fish and Game's side of the story. It doesn't reflect well on the Hammonds.

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/oregon-ranchers-who-sparked-standoff-threatened-to-wrap-officials-son-in-barbed-wire-and-drown-him/
Lacey

Social climber
Nevada
Jan 22, 2016 - 06:29am PT
It's NOT looking good... Spoke with friends who live in Burns last night and now they have brought in 2 military tanks and set up Army tents out at the airport, the hospital is getting ready for triage and they have ordered more plasma. Today, Bundy AGAIN will talk with the Feds but he still stands firm on his delusional plans....
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 22, 2016 - 06:37am PT
Most of me hopes you're joking...

Why the f*#k did the power never get cut and the roads blocked? That's ridiculous.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jan 22, 2016 - 07:04am PT
Anyone consider the idea that the Feds are encouraging this 'takeover'?

Fed land control is being turned over to the states, which the states will use to frack, graze and generally fuk up.

Maybe Oregon pissed off the feds with the legalization of a certain plant?

in any case, cue Walking Dead music, for the anarchy that will only increase as time goes by...
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 22, 2016 - 07:43am PT
Lacey posted
It's NOT looking good... Spoke with friends who live in Burns last night and now they have brought in 2 military tanks and set up Army tents out at the airport, the hospital is getting ready for triage and they have ordered more plasma. Today, Bundy AGAIN will talk with the Feds but he still stands firm on his delusional plans....

This seems a bit hysterical. Bundy is literally driving 30 miles from the Preserve to negotiate with the FBI. If those structures exist it's because the FBI has set up their HQ at the airport and they are following standard protocol. They'd be pretty stupid not to order up blood products during negotiations with armed hostiles.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/fbi_and_oregon_standoff_leader.html#incart_big-photo

Bundy brought the conversation to a close, saying he had other meetings and tasks to attend. A group of New Mexico state legislators was expected at the refuge, he said.

The negotiator asked how they could stay in touch, whether he could use a landline at the refuge to reach Bundy. Bundy demurred, saying the occupiers weren't using refuge phones.

"We want to work together with you," the negotiator said.

The two agreed to connect again in 24 hours.

With that, the negotiator hung up, Bundy handed the borrowed cellphone to an FBI agent and headed to a pickup truck for the 30-mile drive back to the refuge.
Gunkie

climber
Jan 22, 2016 - 08:03am PT
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jan 22, 2016 - 08:28am PT
they have brought in 2 military tanks

That seems like a bit of overkill.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 22, 2016 - 08:40am PT
So much so that you'd think it might be apocryphal.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 22, 2016 - 08:50am PT
they have brought in 2 military tanks

There's a shocker....
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 22, 2016 - 09:22am PT
Just hysterical rumors.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 22, 2016 - 09:55am PT
Yeah, because the government would never go after people with tanks......pffft
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 22, 2016 - 09:59am PT
I do not think the FBI has referred to this as negotiations. The FBI talked to the guy on the phone because the FBI folks on site are going to remain anonymous, quiet and polite worker bees, they will not engage Bundy or his sidekicks, it is simple psychology. Protocol for defusing standoffs is keep communications open. Time is on the FBIs side. The public's attention span is very short, we want results in a 24 hour news cycle. That is not going to happen
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 22, 2016 - 10:10am PT










monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 22, 2016 - 10:17am PT
Right Escopedia, the Bundys have been come and gone freely. The FBI could easily nab them. Unlike waco.

But I"m glad tanks fit well into your world view...pffft
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Jan 22, 2016 - 10:20am PT
If I was preparing to take these guys on if I had to, I would provide all the protection I could to my men. Don't know about tanks, these are probably armored vehicles like the cops have now.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 22, 2016 - 10:23am PT
Right Escopedia, the Bundys have been come and gone freely. The FBI could easily nab them. Unlike waco.

But I"m glad tanks fit well into your world view...pffft

Are we taking bets? What's the over/under on tank usage?
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 22, 2016 - 10:23am PT
Doubt you would pay up.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 22, 2016 - 10:25am PT
Which is chicken- sh#t way of saying "No Bet"?

EDIT: I don't blame you, I wouldn't cover your side of the bet either.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 22, 2016 - 10:26am PT
Sure, whatever you say.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 22, 2016 - 10:27am PT
And just why are New Mexican legislators going to Malheur?
They don't have their own fish to fry?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 22, 2016 - 10:49am PT
Speaking of New Mexico...

http://www.abqjournal.com/710406/news/hundreds-attend-rally-to-protect-federal-lands.html
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 22, 2016 - 10:54am PT
Hey look. A 7th grade lunch table bet that nobody has any intention of actually doing the research on to prove. Why try to find actual documentation of actual tanks being staged to invade the refuge when one can just argue that since they could IMAGINE the government using tanks against it's own citizens that the tanks are probably there!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 22, 2016 - 11:10am PT
Fed land control is being turned over to the states,

And which land would that be??
dirtbag

climber
Jan 22, 2016 - 11:17am PT
Hey look. A 7th grade lunch table bet that nobody has any intention of actually doing the research on to prove. Why try to find actual documentation of actual tanks being staged to invade the refuge when one can just argue that since they could IMAGINE the government using tanks against it's own citizens that the tanks are probably there!

The illuminati have silenced all reporting on this.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 22, 2016 - 11:18am PT
I have a friend who is a Rockefeller I'll ask her. I'm sure she gets this kind of stuff in her morning briefings.
dirtbag

climber
Jan 22, 2016 - 11:20am PT
Don't--if she tells you, they'd have to kill you.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 22, 2016 - 11:28am PT
It's ok, everyone knows they only go after True Americans who Believe in the Constitution. Because liberals are rich elites who think that taxing the rich is the fix for everything.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 22, 2016 - 12:36pm PT
Why not? this is as good a place as any. It is after all a sort of a chess match up there in Oregon with a lot of crazy sheeit.

Checkmate: Saudi grand mufti makes move against chess


Not one to hesitate, Sheikh Abdul Aziz bin-Abdullah al-Sheikh said that chess and similar games were "forbidden" in Islam because they're a form of gambling.

The clip, which can be seen on YouTube, was apparently posted in 2015. But, as happens with these things, it gained traction only recently.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 22, 2016 - 01:05pm PT
Photo proof of tanks in Burns.


Won't that just make it burn worse?
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 22, 2016 - 02:06pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 23, 2016 - 06:05am PT
We'd have to make a distinction between Armored Personnel Carriers vs. actual Tanks. Might have to put a different betting line on each.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 23, 2016 - 10:53am PT
BURNS – Negotiations to end the occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge went awry Friday, as protest leader Ammon Bundy questioned the FBI's legal authority to even be in Harney County.

The next step toward resolving the 3-week-old standoff isn't clear.

The hang-up appears to be Bundy's belief that FBI agents have no standing to deal with the refuge takeover unless they're deputized by Harney County Sheriff Dave Ward.

Militiamen and self-styled patriots contend that under the U.S. Constitution, the sheriff is the highest law enforcement power in the county. The word "sheriff," however, doesn't appear in the Constitution.

That didn't stop Bundy from arriving at the Harney County Courthouse to talk to Ward. Instead, he was left to talk at a security checkpoint with Ward's No. 2, Lt. Brian Needham, who was accompanied by Malheur County Sheriff Brian Wolfe.

Bundy, speaking with an intensity unusual given his typical mild demeanor, insisted on knowing if the FBI had gotten permission to operate in the county. He kept pressing when the sheriff's lieutenant said local and federal authorities were working together.

When Needham said the FBI did have the sheriff's authority, Bundy demanded to see it in writing. He was told no.

A taut-faced Bundy walked away from the encounter and uncharacteristically snapped at a reporter's question: "Don't put words in my mouth."

Asked what his next steps would be, he said he was going back to the refuge to work.

Bundy and a group of about 20 others occupied the headquarters of the bird sanctuary on Jan. 2 and so far have refused to leave, saying they want federal land turned over to county control and the release of two imprisoned local ranchers. Operated by the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service, the reserve covers 187,757 acres of wildlife habitat.

The episode marked a departure from Thursday's scene, when Bundy spent nearly an hour talking to an FBI negotiator by phone. The two had agreed to talk again Friday, and Bundy once again showed up at the Burns Municipal Airport, hoping to meet face-to-face with a negotiator who identified himself only as "Chris."

Bundy's visit this time lasted no more than five minutes before he and several carloads of accompanying militants headed to town for the courthouse.

Bundy and his group have been focused on Ward since before the occupation. They originally sought his help to shield ranchers Dwight Hammond Jr. and his son, Steven, from surrendering earlier this month for federal prison terms. The two were convicted of federal arson charges in 2012 related to range fires they started on the sage lands south of Burns.

Ward refused to intercede and has repeatedly urged Bundy and his followers to break camp and go home.

In some militia circles, the sheriff is viewed as the highest legal authority in a county. The Anti-Defamation League said in its online analysis of that view that a sheriff's "most important role was to protect the people from the unlawful acts of officials of governments like judges and government agents."

The Anti-Defamation League said "sovereign citizens" who believe in the power of the sheriff also believe they can punish a sheriff for failing his duty. That included the "right to hang him."

    Les Zaitz
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 23, 2016 - 12:34pm PT
Just enforcing the constitution....

SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Jan 23, 2016 - 04:00pm PT

Put the fence up and starve the bastards.
No snacks, no electricity, no nothing.
When they come whining out, put 'em all in jail and
throw the key away.
Then go get Cliven Bundy's cows.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 23, 2016 - 04:03pm PT
Escopeta posted
We'd have to make a distinction between Armored Personnel Carriers vs. actual Tanks. Might have to put a different betting line on each.

I'm pretty sure one of them is a tank and one of them is Not A Tank.
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Jan 23, 2016 - 04:05pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Norton

Social climber
Jan 23, 2016 - 04:12pm PT
I can kind of understand why the militia guys have guns cause they are fun

but why do they feel the need to wear camouflage?

is it a gay thing, accessorize, accessorize, accessorize?
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 23, 2016 - 04:18pm PT
but why do they feel the need to wear camouflage?

If they wanted camo, they'd be wearing white right now.

I have to think the killing Bambi gear is the only stuff they have.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 23, 2016 - 04:20pm PT
Steve - yeah, no kidding. Why has none of that happened by now? Every time they do a beer run why not arrest them? And the power should have been cut off weeks ago.

This whole thing is turning into a big WTF?!?
Charlie D.

Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
Jan 23, 2016 - 04:28pm PT
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 23, 2016 - 04:47pm PT
In an interesting development, my long-time climbing partner just called me. He's a HS teacher in Eastern Oregon, and they had a teachers meeting yesterday where the teachers were "strongly encouraged" ( administration words) to carry concealed weapons on campus.

Teachers in Eastern Oregon are now undercover cops.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jan 23, 2016 - 04:47pm PT
Laugh the phuck out loud.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Cheers Charlie
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 23, 2016 - 04:48pm PT
Yeah, that's funny.

This, not so funny.

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/oregon-militant-pulled-his-young-daughters-from-school-and-brought-them-to-armed-standoff/
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 23, 2016 - 04:50pm PT
In an interesting development, my long-time climbing partner just called me. He's a HS teacher in Eastern Oregon, and they had a teachers meeting yesterday where the teachers were "strongly encouraged" ( administration words) to carry concealed weapons on campus.

Cool
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 23, 2016 - 04:59pm PT
Cool

Yeah, and checking into it, there was a case where a student was arrested on campus at Western Oregon University for carrying a concealed weapon and won a counter suit against the State because it's perfectly legal here.

Each school does however, have discretion as to whether to permit concealed handguns inside buildings, dormitories, event centers, and classrooms. Private colleges and universities may still prohibit weapons throughout the entire campus including grounds.

My wife, who was a university administrator for 40 years, told him to ask if this meant that any actions he took under this policy would be indemnified by the school's blanket liability coverage. Campus security, for instance, has special coverage.

It'll be interesting to see what the answer is.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 23, 2016 - 05:39pm PT
Monolith, yeah, that's a bummer.

It's a small thing, but if the parents and daughters are from out of state, I wish the headline didn't refer to him as "Oregon militant."
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 23, 2016 - 06:00pm PT
My wife, who was a university administrator for 40 years, told him to ask if this meant that any actions he took under this policy would be indemnified by the school's blanket liability coverage. Campus security, for instance, has special coverage.

The entire self defense 2A conundrum all wrapped up in a little Eastern Oregon package.

EDIT: Might also be worth asking if the administration would be willing to put one of the armed security guards in his room at all times if he chose not to carry.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 23, 2016 - 06:06pm PT
These could be the kids. Taken to the refuge before CPS could protect them.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/1/19/1471770/-Armed-Oregon-supporters-make-late-night-raid-to-take-children-from-family-member-after-CPS-called

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Bizarre novel by LaVoy Finicum

This Post-Apocalyptic Book Was Written By One Of The Oregon Militia Members

The novel is about many of the same issues raised in Oregon, but culminates in a series of brutal gunfights and killings [including the hero hanging the mayor after lassoing her around the neck]
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 23, 2016 - 10:51pm PT
The Burns occupation draws screwballs like flies to crap. The Sharp Family Singers showed up at the refuge. They previously appeared at the Bundy ranch where their van broke down. Their singing sucks. Ironicaly they sung "Our Land", Woodie Guthrie would have been amused.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 24, 2016 - 08:01am PT
Ammon Bundy's big "Tear up your grazing contract" event at Malheur yesterday was another "black-eye" for the Cow-Quida occcupiers. No Oregon ranchers tore up their contracts and only one rancher did, a man from New Mexico who has been with the Cow-Quida since the start.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/1-rancher-renounces-federal-grazing-contract-at-bundy-event/ar-BBoBRcw

Bundy tried to put some positive spin on the fiasco:

Bundy, who had previously met with local ranchers urging them to tear up their federal contracts, also said he wasn't disappointed that Sewell was the only one to take him up on his idea.

"I'm very happy he came all the way from New Mexico," Bundy said.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Jan 24, 2016 - 09:33am PT
The Sharp Singers also sang a rendition of "Welfare Mothers , Make Better Lovers "...
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 24, 2016 - 11:06am PT
Bundy, who had previously met with local ranchers urging them to tear up their federal contracts, also said he wasn't disappointed that Sewell was the only one to take him up on his idea.

"I'm very happy he came all the way from New Mexico," Bundy said.

That guy probably tore up a Xerox copy.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 24, 2016 - 11:25am PT
Those leases last ten years, and the current price is 1.25 or so per AMU.

The State of Oregon's rate is over 5 bucks. Private grazing can cost 20 bucks.

Grazing licenses are welfare programs. Funny that Bundy believes that he owns his.

I doubt that he has a patent to that land in the County Courthouse.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Jan 24, 2016 - 11:41am PT
Obama isn't going to boot these bozos anytime soon and is handling them with soft gloves..A shoot out would be political suicide with a presidential election right around the corner...
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Jan 24, 2016 - 01:19pm PT
I'm thinking they may not be removed until the day after the election. If so, it will be interesting to see the conflicts between birders and cowboys this summer.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 24, 2016 - 07:50pm PT
Why this popped up on my search is beyond me, but for what it's worth.


[Click to View YouTube Video]
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Jan 24, 2016 - 08:49pm PT
Brennan.....How appropriate that Bundy's Hindenberg comes equipped with government tits..
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 25, 2016 - 06:22am PT
The whole thing just becomes more bizarre... That odd singing family certainly added some Twighlight Zone flavor to the surreal scene.

I keep expecting Rod Serling to walk out and set the stage.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 25, 2016 - 08:40am PT
"Bring on the carp, bishes!"
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 25, 2016 - 11:40am PT
http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/oregon-militia-meet-the-women-of-the-occupied-refuge/#.VqZoMCJZpOY.twitter

“But I’m a nobody,” she said. She said she will stay at the refuge as a cook, “for as long as it takes. We women, we are helpers,” said Bass. “That’s how we are created, and that’s what we do here.”
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 25, 2016 - 03:13pm PT
Ammon Bundy tells the FBI: "The FBI was created to investigate federal bureaus not people."

Video of Ammon Bundy talking to FBI
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 25, 2016 - 03:23pm PT
I'm not sure how intelligent Ammon's father Clive is, but he was smart enough not to join his idiot sons in their current Malheur occupation fiasco.

Ammon appears to be nutty as a fruitcase & about as smart.
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Jan 25, 2016 - 03:29pm PT
Just another show that Obama is plain weak. These people have should have been run off months ago.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jan 25, 2016 - 03:46pm PT
Yes, it's Obama's fault

all the blame rests on Obama's shoulders

If Bush was Pres, then we could witness the glory of "Shock and Awe" as those terrorists burn in the fire of tanks and Swat teams

and good riddance
where do I cast my vote for BUSH!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 25, 2016 - 03:55pm PT
Can we just leave it at a bunch of crazies breaking laws that will eventually be sorted out and not turn it into a dem/rep shouting match?


Edit: We've done so well..........
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 25, 2016 - 04:24pm PT
BECAUSE BURNSGHAZI!!!!
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 25, 2016 - 05:32pm PT
Can we just leave it at a bunch of crazies breaking laws that will eventually be sorted out and not turn it into a dem/rep shouting match?

Not a chance.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 25, 2016 - 06:29pm PT
I'm with Survival.

This is not about Democrats or Republicans, it's about a group of crazies trying to take our public lands away from us, violently.

It also appears that they want their illegal act of grabbing Malheur, to be the start of a revolution against we, the American People.

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 26, 2016 - 09:49am PT
The Hammonds have distanced themselves from the standoff since its beginning. A lawyer for the family wrote early on that "neither Ammon Bundy nor anyone within his group/organization speak for the Hammond Family.”

So has Cliven Bundy, the father of Ammon, who held his own standoff against the federal government nearly two years ago. The elder Bundy does not recognize federal control over the land where his cattle graze, and refuses to pay his grazing fees. In 2014, when federal agents started seizing his cattle, Bundy owed $1.2 million to the Bureau of Land Management. According to the Los Angeles Times, he still does.

“I don’t quite understand how much they’re going to accomplish,” Cliven Bundy said about his sons at the beginning of this month. “I think of it this way: what business does the Bundy family have in Harney County, Oregon?”
dirtbag

climber
Jan 26, 2016 - 09:53am PT
Ammon Bundy's big "Tear up your grazing contract" event at Malheur yesterday was another "black-eye" for the Cow-Quida occcupiers. No Oregon ranchers tore up their contracts and only one rancher did, a man from New Mexico who has been with the Cow-Quida since the start.

Cool, tear up your contracts, then gtf off public lands.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2016 - 10:28am PT
Apparently Susie Hammond (wive and mother of the incarcerated) is estranged from the family and has joned forces with a Common Law Grand Jury "expert". Not good for her or her husband.

http://www.opb.org/news/article/extralegal-grand-jury-gets-support-from-hammond-family/?t=169941

It appears that one of the camera thieves is in jail in Burns, they are picking these idiots off one by one

see Levi Majors (not to be confused with Lee Majors)

http://www.locktrack.com/public/reports/harney_or_ilist.html#

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 26, 2016 - 06:21pm PT
Breaking news.
According to KATU News,

Four yeehawdists including Ammon Bundy were arrested on their way to a meeting at John Day (Grant County). Shots were fired, and there are injuries.

Other reports say highway 395 has been closed and that Burns hospital is under lockdown.

And another report about that meeting has it that Lavoy Finicum was among those going to John Day.

http://katu.com/news/local/leader-of-oregon-occupation-ammon-bundy-three-others-arrested

<edit> the hospital has sent an air ambulance to the site.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 26, 2016 - 06:37pm PT
Yes!!

I read shots fired also.

Now's the time we need some cool heads out there.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 26, 2016 - 06:39pm PT
From Twitter.




jonnyrig

climber
Jan 26, 2016 - 06:42pm PT
Guess they,l get their day in court. Should be entertaining.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 26, 2016 - 06:51pm PT
KATU now reports Bundy and at least 8 detained.

Some for showing guns during the stop.
http://katu.com/news/local/leader-of-oregon-occupation-ammon-bundy-three-others-arrested
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jan 26, 2016 - 06:57pm PT
Can we just leave it at a bunch of crazies breaking laws that will eventually be sorted out and not turn it into a dem/rep shouting match?

Yes we could, if they weren't Domestic right wing extremists that only Vote for Republicans

monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 26, 2016 - 07:03pm PT
Last link updated to say 1 person dead.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Jan 26, 2016 - 07:06pm PT
hey there say, all...

i only been stopping by, off and on,
but my friend has been very worried about all this, i know...

i just heard breaking news on pbs radio...
i thought, --if i heard right, that there was shooting, some hit, and
yes, i did hear that one was dead...


so--i just checked on my friend to see how she was doing:
she has a friend there, in burns...
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Jan 26, 2016 - 07:06pm PT
Wonder if the Yeehawdis did a self-arrest to get the 3 square meals and warm bunks accomodations...?
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 26, 2016 - 07:10pm PT
Dead person is reportedly a militant.

Ryan Bundy was also arrested. More names coming.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jan 26, 2016 - 07:12pm PT
Just received a report from the Carson City Moron Militia...

Dinner and circle jerk at Denny's interrupted. Stop.
Ron A. Just took off gimp mask and pulled his pants up. Stop.
Is telling members this is Obama's fault. Stop.
Tells members to go home, grab their guns and bibles, and hide under their trailers. Stop.
The other 2 members left, and Ron is finishing his chicken fried steak. Stop.

Meeting adjourned for the night. Next meeting is February. 5th at Applebee's.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2016 - 07:13pm PT
Speculation is Ammon's bodyguard, The Buddha aka Fluffy Unicorn was killed because his name was not on the list of arrested idiots.

Bryan Cavalier I think is his name

atchafalaya for the win ROTFL
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 26, 2016 - 07:14pm PT
Craig Fry: You are very wrong to try to polarize people by saying this is a liberal vs conservative fight.

I know lots of conservatives that think the Malheur occupation is an act of crazy want-to-be cowboys who wish to start a revolution. Lots of conservatives still want public land management kept under Federal management, which are agencies that most of us like and trust.

Lots of conservatives enjoy hunting & fishing on public lands, and they know that access will be lost in any state's rights takeover.

This thread has been blessed by it not turning into a conservative vs liberal sh#t-slinging match and I believe it should stay that way.

It is a CowQuida vs sane Americans showdown at Malheur.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 26, 2016 - 07:17pm PT
I think Ryan cavalier was arrested. At least some guy named Ryan was. The report went by fast.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jan 26, 2016 - 07:18pm PT
Oh so sorry Fritz
I don't want to offend conservatives by mentioning them as being on same side of the aisle as crazy

What would you define as their Belief system?
They did say that God told them to do it.
So we do know they talk to God
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2016 - 07:18pm PT
Yep, it is not Cavalier, tarpman got killed (Lavoy Finicum)
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Jan 26, 2016 - 07:19pm PT
See, Doomsday is upon us. toljaso
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 26, 2016 - 07:21pm PT
From the O

6:55 p.m.: The FBI and Oregon State Police confirm that they took an "enforcement action" to take the occupiers into custody. One person was killed and another wounded. Those arrested include:

Ammon Edward Bundy, 40, of Emmett, Idaho
Ryan C. Bundy, 43, of Bunkerville, Nevada
Brian Cavalier, 44, of Bunkerville, Nevada
Shawna Cox, 59, Kanab, Utah
Ryan Waylen Payne, 32, of Anaconda, Montana
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 26, 2016 - 07:21pm PT
Tork

climber
Yosemite
Jan 26, 2016 - 07:22pm PT
Painfull watching
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 26, 2016 - 07:24pm PT
Pete Santilli is outside the Hospital and reports two were shot.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2016 - 07:26pm PT
They need to arrest Santilli, charge him with felony stupid
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 26, 2016 - 07:27pm PT
It ain't over. Probably only just begun.

not only do i expect for many more arrests (there f*#king better be) you can also bet the supporters of these terrorists are going to do something really stupid.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Jan 26, 2016 - 07:27pm PT
can we please just hear that this was the aforepromised firey doom and heavy arty/tank invasion...?
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 26, 2016 - 07:27pm PT
Craig: Re your question about the Malheur crazies:

What would you define as their Belief system?
They did say that God told them to do it.
So we do know they talk to God


The Bundy boys are nominally Mormons, but early on in the standoff, the Mormon Church spokespeople very pointedly distanced themselves from having anything to do with the crazies.

Since Ammon says God talks with him, that does remove him from the Mainstream Mormon Church, & places him in the ranks of dangerous Reliqious nuts.

I'm looking forward to him having a lot of quiet-time in jail to hone his new religion of CowQuida.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 26, 2016 - 07:29pm PT
If two or more persons in any State, Territory, Possession, or District conspire to prevent, by force, intimidation, or threat, any person from accepting or holding any office, trust, or place of confidence under the United States, or from discharging any duties thereof, or to induce by like means any officer of the United States to leave the place, where his duties as an officer are required to be performed, or to injure him in his person or property on account of his lawful discharge of the duties of his office, or while engaged in the lawful discharge thereof, or to injure his property so as to molest, interrupt, hinder, or impede him in the discharge of his official duties, each of such persons shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six years, or both.

(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 701; Pub. L. 107–273, div. B, title IV, § 4002(d)(1)(D), Nov. 2, 2002, 116 Stat. 1809.)

Title 18 US Code section 372
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2016 - 07:30pm PT
Santilli's live feed is entertaining, but terrible connection

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 26, 2016 - 07:31pm PT
The Oregonian reports the FBI has told those back at the reserve they are free to leave and should do so immediately.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 26, 2016 - 07:32pm PT
Sh#t just got real.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 26, 2016 - 07:32pm PT
Many are saying tarpman LaVoy Finicum is dead.

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/lavoy-finic#m-the-oregon-militant-beaneath-the-blue-tarp-killed-in-police-shootout-reports/#.Vqg6Z5Dcm1Z.twitter
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 26, 2016 - 07:34pm PT
Can we get confirmation that 2 Abrams tanks were used? This is important.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 26, 2016 - 07:48pm PT
The Hill reports Ryan Bundy " suffered a minor gunshot wound"

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/267131-ore-armed-group-leader-ammon-bundy-arrested

< edit> one Twitter report claims he was shot in the ass. Not sure I believe it.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 26, 2016 - 07:50pm PT
Pete Santilli also arrested separately in Burns.

http://flashalert.net/news.html?id=3585
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 26, 2016 - 07:51pm PT
A liberty nick
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jan 26, 2016 - 07:56pm PT
Forward all snacks to Y'allcatraz.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Jan 26, 2016 - 07:58pm PT
*
Forward all snacks to Y'allcatraz.
LOL.....................

Edit..Personally ..I'm sorry to hear someone died...but glad to know some of Bundy's gang are going to the cement pokey.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2016 - 07:58pm PT
They did not have tootsie pops to suck on, all they had was a bag o' dicks to suck
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 26, 2016 - 08:03pm PT
Personally ..I'm sorry to hear someone died...

Me, too. They are so pathetically moronic that it's hard not feel sorry for them.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Jan 26, 2016 - 08:15pm PT

Like Nita, I'm sorry about the death.

But the rest of those jerks should be hauled into jail
like Ammon and then throw the key away.

Then go to Nevada and confiscate Cliven's cows and throw him
in jail for the debt he owes to the US.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 26, 2016 - 08:16pm PT
I doubt guys like Blaine Cooper are going to leave the refuge. This is not over.

This isn't Blaine, could even be a hoax.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/01/26/five-oregon-occupiers-arrested-one-person-killed-in-confrontation-with-police/

Jason Patrick, a participant in the occupation who was at the Malheur refuge Tuesday night said that the arrests doesn’t change the occupiers’ demands. He wouldn’t say how many people remain at the refuge, or who else was with him.

“Right now, we’re doing fine,” he told The Washington Post by phone. “We’re just trying to figure out how a dead cowboy equals peaceful resolution.”
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 26, 2016 - 08:19pm PT
I feel sorry for Dorian "Famous in China" Murray and he hasn't died yet.

While I don't celebrate someone dying, this guy put himself into an untenable position where he could die and taunted his foes to bring it on.

So I'm not shedding any tears on this one.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 26, 2016 - 08:25pm PT
I doubt guys like Blaine Cooper are going to leave the refuge. This is not over.

maybe it's time to cut off the power? FINALLY!


This isn't Blaine, could even be a hoax.
seems like a hoax.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2016 - 08:31pm PT
This isn't Blaine, could even be a hoax.
]

That short video by DefendYourBase is that lunatic kid from Ohio who showed up a week or so ago, he is pro ISIS anti Israel. They have kept him hidden lately
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Jan 26, 2016 - 08:42pm PT
I'm going to check this out as details unfold. But, they sure are stupid. Pathetic and disappointing deflation to what could have been a classic standoff. How much will the trials and prison costs be?
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jan 26, 2016 - 08:46pm PT



Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2016 - 07:58pm PT
They did not have tootsie pops to suck on, all they had was a bag o' dicks to suck


Best comment.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jan 26, 2016 - 08:57pm PT
I bet Ammon gets An ass whippen when he gets back home.
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Jan 26, 2016 - 09:06pm PT
Can we get confirmation that 2 Abrams tanks were used?

No, we can't.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Jan 26, 2016 - 09:12pm PT

Those boys didn't listen to their mamas--knot to play with guns. . .


"Mommas, don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys. . ."
John M

climber
Jan 26, 2016 - 09:17pm PT
"Mommas, don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys. . ."

Steve, I believe it should be "Mommas, don't let your babies grow up to be cowquedas" :-)


on another note. ..

Does anyone know if a person dying during the arrest can lead to further charges? Such as someone can be charged with murder if someone dies in the commission of a crime. At least as I understand it.
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Jan 26, 2016 - 09:24pm PT
He changed his clothes and shined his boots
And combed his dark hair down
And his mother cried as he walked out

Don't take your guns to town son
Leave your guns at home Bill
Don't take your guns to town…

—Johnny Cash
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Kelly Morgan, Whitefish MT
Jan 26, 2016 - 09:28pm PT
Looks like they will be occupying federal land for many years to come.

I wonder if the state will file charges also. The governor was pretty upset with the Brokeback Militia.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 26, 2016 - 09:37pm PT
For Ammon and the boys:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2016 - 09:42pm PT
Does anyone know if a person dying during the arrest can lead to further charges? Such as someone can be charged with murder if someone dies in the commission of a crime. At least as I understand it.

Yes, under the felony murder rule, Ryan Bundy for sure, possibly Ammmon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 26, 2016 - 09:48pm PT
CNN just posted this news:

A law enforcement official told CNN that authorities pulled over two vehicles. Everyone obeyed orders to surrender except two people: LaVoy Finicum and Bundy's brother, Ryan Bundy, the official said.

Shots were fired, but it's not known who fired first, the official said. Ryan Bundy was injured, but Finicum died, the official added.

Finicum was among the most outspoken of the occupiers who took over the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge near Burns on January 2 to protest federal land policies.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/26/us/oregon-wildlife-refuge-siege-arrests/
John M

climber
Jan 26, 2016 - 09:50pm PT
I'm looking for an interpretation of how that would work in this case.

As I understand that law, they have to be committing a felony. I believe holding the refuge is a felony, but would they be considered to be committing a felony when on the way to a meeting? Or would it be because someone resisted arrest? What if some of them surrendered immediately, but shots were fired before they could be placed under arrest?

Mostly just curious how this will play out?

Edit: from Fritz's post.. would Bundy's brother be the only person to have an added charge of murder? or would all of them possibly face that charge?

Edit: my own feeling is that if they have been saying that they would use weapons to hold the refuge, then they are a kind of enemy combatant (don't know the proper language to describe what they are doing at the refuge} and should face murder charges even if on the way to a meeting.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 26, 2016 - 09:59pm PT
"I have some sons and other people there trying to protect our rights and liberties and freedoms, and now we've got one killed, and all I can say is, he's sacrificed for a good purpose," Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy told the Los Angeles Times...

Yeah, the good purpose of allowing Cliven to leech off the government.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2016 - 10:00pm PT
Traveling in the vehicle with everyone loaded for bear could be considered a continuation of the charge of impeding an officer. If Ryan Bundy pulled a weapon he is toast.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jan 26, 2016 - 10:01pm PT
I'm glad no law enforcement officers were killed capturing these domestic terrorists.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jan 26, 2016 - 10:07pm PT

Does anyone know if a person dying during the arrest can lead to further charges? Such as someone can be charged with murder if someone dies in the commission of a crime. At least as I understand it.

let's say that there is a bank robbery where someone is killed, an accomplice( who didn't do the shooting) can be charged as an accessory after the fact.

This case is different though in that the Feds did the shooting
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 26, 2016 - 10:17pm PT
I don't know from Oregon law, but in California, that'd make you more than an accessory after the fact - it'd be a murder charge.

More than a few guys are doing life for murder because one of their pals was killed during commission of their crime. Like two guys decide to rob a liquor store, and the clerk shoots and kills one of them. The surviving robber will be charged with murder.

It'll be interesting to find out what went down in Oregon.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 26, 2016 - 10:17pm PT

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2016 - 09:42pm PT
Does anyone know if a person dying during the arrest can lead to further charges? Such as someone can be charged with murder if someone dies in the commission of a crime. At least as I understand it.

Yes, under the felony murder rule, Ryan Bundy for sure, possibly Ammmon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule

In Oregon the person killed has to be NOT one of the participants in the felony.
http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/163.115

Currently, the felony murder rule for federal offenses is applied at sentencing, not at trial, which some think is a violation of due process and must be shown at trial. In any case, the Feds must usually show malice aforethought except in cases like arson.

And the Feds make a distinction between the felony murder doctrine and the felony murder rule. It's a big hot mess.

http://www.repository.law.indiana.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1585&context=ilj
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Jan 26, 2016 - 10:27pm PT
^ very interesting. Thanks, Lorenzo.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2016 - 12:21am PT
Armored vehicles are headed in convoys toward the refuge, helicopters are overhead.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 27, 2016 - 05:55am PT
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 27, 2016 - 05:57am PT
Mark McConnell gives eyewitness account. He was in trailing vehicle and later released.

http://www.facebook.com/mark.mcconnell.127648?fref=photo
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Jan 27, 2016 - 05:59am PT
Made my day, Nature! You da man. Stand off is over. One loser dead, another shot. Hey, morons: Don't take up guns and tell the lawfully appointed officers of this country what to do. Good riddance.

BAd
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 27, 2016 - 06:01am PT
Why is McConnell not in jail?

*edit* Seems like a very honest account. Good on him. He explains why he wasn't arrested.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 27, 2016 - 06:37am PT
I appreciate two of his comments (and his honesty).

1) it's over. people are leaving.

2) don't make sh#t up.


No problem BAd. Had to have something for breakfast.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 27, 2016 - 06:54am PT
It's cool to see so many Progressives coming out in support of police violence, mass incarceration, and prison rape.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2016 - 07:02am PT
David Frye is live streaming from inside. One minute he is talking about impending death, then he is talking about talent releases. He is working up a good insanity defense
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 27, 2016 - 07:06am PT
Chaz posted
It's cool to see so many Progressives coming out in support of police violence, mass incarceration, and prison rape.

I'm trying to remember a single time when you posted about any of those issues in defense of someone who wasn't white. And aren't progressives supposed to be rabidly anti-police and always blame police for everything?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jan 27, 2016 - 07:07am PT
It's cool to see so many Progressives coming out in support of police violence, mass incarceration, and prison rape.

Au Contrairian.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 27, 2016 - 07:14am PT
So now that it's over, will this thread still hit 2000 posts? Anyone taking bets?
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jan 27, 2016 - 07:16am PT
After thinking this over, I don't understand the sympathy for Lavoy Finicum. Dude was a hothead, itchin' for a gunfight, and knew what he was getting into.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 27, 2016 - 07:20am PT
Never stop posting.


After thinking this over, I don't understand the sympathy for Lavoy Finicum. Dude was a hothead, itchin' for a gunfight, and knew what he was getting into.

What is the likelihood of any of those people claiming that Finicum was "murdered by police" thought Michael Brown was rightfully shot?
Bushman

Social climber
Elk Grove, California
Jan 27, 2016 - 07:30am PT
How could anyone think this wasn't going to end in violence?
Senseless.
If you want to fight fire with fire and expect to survive,
get a law degree.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jan 27, 2016 - 07:33am PT
Where's Ron Anderson

Ron's probably holed up with the other ignorant dongbeavers, Forum Bully.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2016 - 07:42am PT
An eyewitness is reporting that finicum tried to run the blockade and ended up in a snow bank, got out of the truck and charged the FBI. I suppose he could have been unarmed and on the ground, maybe he was doing a low-crawl
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 27, 2016 - 07:42am PT
Werner posted
Where's Ron Anderson to give his commentary to twist all these lame azz lazy armchair do nothing wannabee crankloon quarterbacks in this thread.

The chief would be great too.

You stoopid crankloons ban everyone to make your boring drooling stupid little cliche group all the same and end up looking like drooling zombies .....


This is so meta.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jan 27, 2016 - 07:44am PT
"Their concerns were valid"

Really,so if you run a business and you do not Pay your suppliers you would take up arms against them.
What do you call that?

GD yeeHaddists they are getting what is coming to them.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 27, 2016 - 07:45am PT

OK! OUR forces have blockaded the CowQuida nutjobs.

UPDATE (4:30 a.m.): FBI officials have established checkpoints around the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge as a handful of armed militants remain inside.

FBI officials say any vehicles approaching the checkpoints will be stopped and searched, and all occupants of the vehicles must present identification. Law enforcement officials said in a press release early Wednesday morning they will arrest anyone who is not compliant with the checkpoint procedure.

The only people allowed to pass the checkpoints will be local ranchers, according to the FBI.

“Anyone coming out of the refuge will have his or her identification confirmed and any associated vehicles searched,” a press release from the FBI stated.

http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/lockdown-harney-county/
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 27, 2016 - 07:48am PT
WTF posted
Their methods were poor but their concerns are valid IMO.

How about at the next sushi fest the state of Utah showed up and shuts your wagon down.
You have health inspections Nature? You have a Utah business license? You report that income to the IRS?
You have a liquor license? You offer saki don't you?


Hosting an unlicensed sushi party in the desert is JUST LIKE an armed takeover of a government building. Excellent analogy.
overwatch

climber
Jan 27, 2016 - 07:51am PT
Their methods were poor but their concerns are valid IMO

Glad you didn't put the H in there
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jan 27, 2016 - 08:03am PT
Lot of bs on this page
https://www.facebook.com/bundyranch/?ref=ts&fref=ts
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2016 - 08:11am PT
The FBI is asking the press to move away from the refuge. Maybe sushi is on the way?
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 27, 2016 - 08:22am PT
Where were the intrepid reporters and/or others when this all went down.

We want videos, don't we?. Is the head dead yet?

R.I.P. [Glenn]]

[Click to View YouTube Video]

kattz

climber
Jan 27, 2016 - 08:30am PT
Got to say I'm myself against current government path towards tyranny, blatant violations of the constitution, the country having turned into the matrix of media brainwash and materialism slipping towards system of slavery more and more, etc, to the point I'm planning to permanently leave the States in several years, but even I have no sympathy for these nut jobs occupying Mahleur. They are disgusting looney bins and hope they all will be in federal prison soon. Their leadership are nothing but greedy rancher leeches with only personal profit in mind, and the rest of their "flock" are and not much different from Bundy ranch cows (while also acting like shameless leeches).

They'd asked for donations. What??! How "self-sufficient" of them, true preppers!
They'd occupied government building and land funded by taxpayers--they had been living consuming utilities paid by the taxpayers, enjoying all kinds of comforts, while destroying the property paid by the taxpayers, so in a couple of months I will have to foot the bill for yet another leech! It really got me how they're smoking inside the building....employees will have to return there and smell the filth--so, BLM will have to replace the flooring and all furniture, as it's impossible to remove the smell of smoke by any means--who's going to pay for this?? I hope these "occupiers" will have ALL property confiscated via fines, to pay for damages.

I definitely believe that the rights of white people are frequently violated in the US and people are being targeted because of being white, without repercussions for criminals who attack them. However--the Bundy clique are the exact example of "white privilege" and the proof that such indeed exists. Why had they been handled with such kid gloves? They're destroying the fence....and no police action. If I destroyed any fence, I'd be hauled to jail. But these had been enjoying their privilege, apparently, for being such all-American males (and well-connected ranchers)? I almost thought there's someone out there taking bribes from them (hence the kid gloves).

And what cowards they are....One of them was already posting tearful videos with his kids asking for money to get a lawyer yesterday (!)...yeah, the one who was ready to die in mortal combat with the feds or something few day ago. Bundy'd surrendered while letting his buddies rot in the compound...he's sure hoping to cut a sweet privilege deal with the Feds now...no matter how many more of his flock are going to get shot. What wusses! Unbelievable circus. All they could do is try to trash the bird refuge; as someone'd mentioned, any one bird from there is worth more than entire Bundy gang.
dirtbag

climber
Jan 27, 2016 - 08:35am PT
I definitely believe that the rights of white people are frequently violated in the US and people are being targeted because of being white, without repercussions for criminals who attack them.

Oh, please...
kattz

climber
Jan 27, 2016 - 08:41am PT
Another thing is the Bundy's space demands.. They own large private lands, already.
Apparently, they think it's not enough and they want to grab public lands. So that the other citizens, who don't have own large lots (or don't have any own lots at all) have to surrender their public land (which is often the only land they "have") to his cows, who's going to destroy what's left of that land and drive other users off the land, and make it generally unpleasant to use (cow crap everywhere they went though).

In the good old times, there was a lot of land and not so many people, this is what old Bundy is used to. Now, extreme overpopulation is making desirable (non-desert, non-arctic) land less and less available and more and more expansive.
So, Bundy wants more land. And he pops out...14 brats...what???!!
He brings 14 offspring and guess what, each will need more land! For their cows, themselves (since the're used to space) and whatever! That breeding spree alone is a message for others to "move on and make space" for ME.

Perhaps Bundy shouldn't had been breeding so much and spent the money on buying more land for his precious cows instead.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2016 - 08:41am PT
Nice first post Katz. Love to hear what country you are moving to.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 27, 2016 - 08:46am PT
I'm frustrated to read that so many out there are applauding someone's death and advocating butt rape.

Justice should be served, and if you pull a gun on a cop, you'll probably die.

However, the vultures out there saying it's a good thing that someone died are way too disconnected from reality.

And seriously, butt rape?

Get ahold of yourselves, people.
kattz

climber
Jan 27, 2016 - 08:49am PT
I'll be moving to either Mongolia or Altai mountains within Russia borders.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 27, 2016 - 08:52am PT
The FBI will now investigate itself to confirm that none of it's personnel acted wrongfully.

They are on a roll. A perfect performance that dwarfs Nadia Comaneci's 10.

“The F.B.I. takes very seriously any shooting incidents involving our agents, and as such we have an effective, time-tested process for addressing them internally,” a bureau spokesman said.

But if such internal investigations are time-tested, their outcomes are also predictable: from 1993 to early 2011, F.B.I. agents fatally shot about 70 “subjects” and wounded about 80 others — and every one of those episodes was deemed justified, according to interviews and internal F.B.I. records obtained by The New York Times through a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 27, 2016 - 08:53am PT
I'm with Brandon, this is very sad, on many fronts. But give me one A-10 and it's ovah in 5 min.
They'll have to rebuild anyway.
kattz

climber
Jan 27, 2016 - 09:01am PT
"Live streaming"... from "armed standoff camp".... using evil Federal utilities (and I'm sure evil iPhones equipped with government/spying hardware as well... somehow the feds didn't activate the iPhone kill switch!)... imagine the demands in jail... "vanilla creamer, please, and the internet is too slow today". Seriously, these guys can't even see themselves in the mirror, they need to be sent to a 3rd world country for a year and made survive on their own. I think this would be even better idea than federal prison.
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Jan 27, 2016 - 09:18am PT
Good post Brandon.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 27, 2016 - 09:19am PT
I'll be moving to either Mongolia or Altai mountains within Russia borders.

Trust me, the wi-fi there sucks.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 27, 2016 - 09:21am PT
That page is pretty amazing.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 27, 2016 - 09:25am PT
However, the vultures out there saying it's a good thing that someone died are way too disconnected from reality.



Actually, I didn't see anyone posting that Finicum's death was a "good thing". Can you share that direct quote?

Many forgive gallows humor when it's Fish talking about someone jumping off Glacier Point, but it's not understood when these guys were virtually begging for gunplay.

One of the witnesses already posted a video on Facebook that he saw the pickup take off, with Finicum as the driver, after being stopped. How's that supposed to play out, when the cops know the people in the car are armed?

The occupiers also conveniently forgot that before the humble ranchers working the land, the whole area was controlled by a cattle baron who everyone hated, Peter French.


Cattle king

After several years, French's small cattle operation had expanded, helped in large part by Glenn as his financier. The P Ranch became the headquarters for his growing cattle empire. He and his men built fences, drained marshlands and irrigated large areas of land, broke hundreds of horses and mules, and cut and stacked native hay. French's empire expanded to include the Diamond Valley, the Blitzen Valley, and the Catlow Valley. The land encompasses approximately 160,000 to 200,000 acres (650 to 800 km²). A shrewd businessman, French took advantage of the Swamp and Overflow Act, which allowed marshland to be purchased at $1.25 an acre. He built dams to flood areas, bought the land under the Swamp Act at the reduced price, then removed the dams to return the land to its original state. French also directed his employees and others to file homestead claims that he would then purchase. His attempts at seizing more and more land even included fencing lands in the public domain.

In 1883, French married Glenn’s daughter Ella. Glenn was murdered three weeks later by a former employee. French continued to manage the Oregon operation for the Glenn family, selling more cattle to help pay the family’s debts. In 1894, Glenn’s heirs decided to incorporate the French-Glenn partnership into the French-Glenn Livestock Company, making French the company president.[1][2] French was divorced in 1891.
Fall

In June 1878 the native Paiute and Bannock (both closely associated with the Shoshone tribes) population at the base of the Steens Mountain swooped upon the P Ranch, but not before a messenger could warn French of the impending attack. French and all but one of his men were able to escape. The attacks continued throughout the summer. The Paiutes burned buildings and homes, ran off cattle and horses, and at least once shot French's horse out from under him. At one point, French even accompanied the U.S. 1st Cavalry Regiment to guide the Army through the area.

In the 1880s and 1890s, stockmen and smaller farmers fought over land and water rights. Aggression over such rights and French's large spread of land drew a certain loathing toward him.

French arrived back home from a business trip on Christmas Day in 1897 bearing gifts he had purchased for his wife, children and cowhands. His crew chief fell ill in the night, and French took on the responsibilities of trail boss the next morning.

On December 26, 1897, French opened the gate to a sagebrush field to let his cattle through. As he remounted his horse, Ed Oliver, a man with whom French had had a previous boundary spat, rode his horse at full speed straight at French. Oliver's horse collided with French's, and as Oliver charged again, French struck him over the head with a willow whip. Oliver produced a revolver from his waistband and fired one shot. The bullet struck French in the head and killed him instantly. Oliver, fearing retribution from French's men, sped off.
Another lost battle

Harney County Sheriff Andrew John McKinnon arrested Oliver the next day, Oliver still wearing the weapon that had taken French's life. French's brother, Burt, filed an indictment for murder; the charge was dropped the day before Oliver's trial was to begin. Harney County District Attorney Charles W. Parfish would not let it drop, and filed a new indictment for manslaughter, acting on the belief that he would stand a better chance of pinning down the lesser charge.

The trial began on May 19, 1898, with members of French's crew testifying that Oliver had shot French from behind as he rode away from Oliver. Lionel R. Webster, attorney for Oliver, maintained that Oliver had shot French in self-defense, having feared for his life. With few options, Webster put his client on the stand. Oliver testified that French beat him with the willow whip, and screamed "I'll kill you!" as he reached for a gun. French's men had earlier testified, however, that French was not armed, and jurors took only three hours in deliberation before returning the verdict "not guilty".

John William "Peter" French was buried in Red Bluff, California next to the graves of his father and mother at the Oak Hill Cemetery.

"Forward all snacks to Y'allcatraz." One of the winner quotes.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 27, 2016 - 09:40am PT
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 27, 2016 - 09:41am PT
Freedom rolls. Damn that looks good.
Norton

Social climber
Jan 27, 2016 - 09:42am PT
I don't agree one bit with the take over of a refuge by armed individuals. I do think our government is out of control and has put these ranchers ability to feed their families in jeopardy by governing their existence towards extinction.
\


oh please...

the poor poor ranchers my ass .....

you know what bunky? they earn your sympathy too easily

and they can earn my sympathy by playing by the same damn rules we all play by

like paying to graze, fatten, and then slaughter your cattle for profit on land that does
not fuking belong to you, that you did and not own, and that year after year you broke the law we ALL abide by refusing, refusing to pay a very very reasonable amount of money to the owner of that land, your neighbor

spare me any, any sympathy for those criminals, got that "wtf" ?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 27, 2016 - 09:46am PT
No stupid crankloons around

Boy, howdy! That rifle wasn't for show, either - wolves and Snow Leopards love mutton!*
And the freshly-squeezed yoghurt was to die for!


*At another place not that far from there the dood had two Snow Leopard hides drying on
the side of his house. I wasn't thrilled to see that but that's the way it was there - REAL!
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 27, 2016 - 09:56am PT
Survival,
No, I'm not going to look back over the thread to find quotes that essentially say, 'let 'em die'. I've been following the story and this thread, and I know what I read.

these guys were virtually begging for gunplay.

I agree. However it still seems like some here were ok with, if not glad about, the outcome. I may be wrong.

The loss of any life shouldn't be applauded. I've been guilty of it before, and hope to never repeat it again.
dirtbag

climber
Jan 27, 2016 - 10:00am PT
I'm indifferent. Better one of them than any cop. If they want to march around and play guerilla then that is what happens.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2016 - 10:05am PT
I'll be moving to either Mongolia or Altai mountains within Russia borders.

Or maybe Schmongolia
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 27, 2016 - 10:06am PT
However it still seems like some here were ok with, if not glad about, the outcome. I may be wrong.

The loss of any life shouldn't be applauded. I've been guilty of it before, and hope to never repeat it again.


Understood. Well put. I feel exactly the same. I certainly hope that there wasn't a single post of mine that implied a call for lives to be taken. I have hoped from the beginning that these folks would pay with jail time, not lives. Though it did almost seem to have the dark feel of inevitability from the beginning also.

Sadly, this is only one act in a continuing play.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2016 - 10:08am PT
New live stream, yeah, they are digging foxholes

[Click to View YouTube Video]
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 27, 2016 - 10:09am PT
Brandon posted
I agree. However it still seems like some here were ok with, if not glad about, the outcome. I may be wrong.

The loss of any life shouldn't be applauded. I've been guilty of it before, and hope to never repeat it again.

The loss of any life is horrible, however I have a hard time feeling much sorrow when people who very much knew what they were getting into choose a violent path and find violence.

"There are things more important than life and that includes freedom."
-Lavoy Finicum

The dude committed suicide by cop. It is sad, but it is also pathetic. He put others in danger in the pursuit of his on grandiose vision. I am grateful that no law enforcement officers were hurt.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 27, 2016 - 10:13am PT
I guess that's where we disagree, HDDJ.

While I don't mourn the loss of the militia member, I feel for his family and the cop who was forced to shoot him.
overwatch

climber
Jan 27, 2016 - 10:16am PT
others —and every one of those episodes was deemed justified,

Tell that to Randy Weaver
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 27, 2016 - 10:16am PT
Digging their own graves with a Cat 320D.

Well you gotta hand it to them on that one.

Can't fix stupid.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2016 - 10:20am PT
Digging their own graves with a Cat 320D.

Well you gotta hand it to them on that one.

Can't fix stupid.

Nobody has a friggin hardhat on. Someone needs to convene a safety meeting

Edit: live press conference http://koin.com/koin-video-extras/

Militia live stream, keeps restarting

[Click to View YouTube Video]
kattz

climber
Jan 27, 2016 - 10:20am PT
A few villages in Altai mountains now have internet (not Mongolia, but fairly close to border), people even work from home there...

I still think US is the best country in the world, and its public lands happens to be the some of the best it has to offer.
John M

climber
Jan 27, 2016 - 10:28am PT
WTF.. from what I understand, nature doesn't make money off of sushifests. he charges break even rates. That stuff is expensive. He isn't breaking any rules that I know of. You should try understanding the spirit of those kinds of rules. Even cops understand this. I know quite a few police officers, and even though in many places gambling is illegal, they won't bust a home game where gambling is happening, because the purpose of the game isn't to make money for the house. Its for a few friends to get together. The same is for Nature's sushifests.

That is not equivalent to what the hammonds have done. In no way. So you are creating a false equivalency.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 27, 2016 - 10:44am PT
I shouldn't even bite but why not... I'll let the stupid play itself out.

I don't "charge" for anything. We're a group of friends getting together and people pitch in either by helping, bringing food, or contributing for the food. It's a private event. To some that's called a pot-luck. Ever have one? Get a permit?

I didn't know I needed a liquor license to share saki with my friends. Better tell Donini about that next time he shares a bottle of wine with someone. Better not offer someone a beer w/o a liquor license.

It's not a business and thus no need to report to the IRS. Though if I were to report I'd be reporting at a loss. I always never make money, rarely even break even, and usually loose out.

As it's friends getting together to make dinner no county health codes are considered. I've checked (and I've had a license to operate in the past - I know the rules).

And BTW... States don't issue business licenses - cities do. FAKT.

Two years ago I was contacted by BLM in regards to the event. Nice lady. After disclosing exactly what was going on she said, "sounds like fun - mind if I stop by? I love sushi". Now when we held the event in the Coconino National Forest we had to secure a special use permit - they wanted to make sure we had outhouses. And here again the ranger I worked with wanted to stop by and join us.

Nice Try.

FALE.




Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2016 - 10:47am PT
what???? no

SUSHIGAZI!!!!!
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 27, 2016 - 10:58am PT
Haha... eKat I forgot about that BLM guy.

One of the first nights of Flagstaff SushiFest we had someone else camped close and I was worried about the noise we were about to make. So I called up the woman at the FS that issued our permit and asked what I should do. She said if they complain to give them her card and have them call her - she'd explain we have a permit and to deal with it. Cuz'... you know.... we got the band back together.


WAR PIGS!!!



Edit:
LONG LIVE NATURE GOIN' BROKE ON SUSHIFESTS!

Well now that I no longer have my salaried job (after eight and a half years) we're gonna be aiming for a little closer to the break even line ;-)
Slabby D

Trad climber
B'ham WA
Jan 27, 2016 - 11:01am PT
Good to see that they haven't run out of snacks yet. It's gonna get rough when the Cheez-Its dry up.


Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 27, 2016 - 11:21am PT
Back to the insurrection

The folks arrested are in the Inverness Rd jail near PDX airport and will be arraigned at 1:30 at the federal courthouse downtown at 1:30 PM.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 27, 2016 - 11:22am PT
FBI officials say any vehicles approaching the checkpoints will be stopped and searched, and all occupants of the vehicles must present identification. Law enforcement officials said in a press release early Wednesday morning they will arrest anyone who is not compliant with the checkpoint procedure


Huh?

Random poking around on the internet.

Twenty-five-year-old Bradley Stroot is one of several campaigners to go public, after the Guardian revealed an FBI investigation that labeled them “environmental extremists”, with new allegations of a continued crackdown. From an hours-long detention at the US border to a home visit by a terrorism task force and an encounter with police searching for bombs, the activists say law enforcement has tracked them from a peaceful Texas protest of the highly contentious oil project in 2012 and 2013 to the tony suburbs of Indianapolis as recently as the end of last year.


http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/08/keystone-protesters-fbi-watchlisted-terrorism
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jan 27, 2016 - 11:41am PT
Where's Ron Anderson to give his commentary to twist all these lame azz lazy armchair do nothing wannabee crankloon quarterbacks in this thread.

The chief would be great too.

You stoopid crankloons ban everyone to make your boring drooling stupid little cliche group all the same and end up looking like drooling zombies .....

oh my god, I agree with a duck.

the loss of life is sad. but I cannot believe it was anyone's choice other than his. The FBI were very careful in how they handled this. fact is if you play with guns you might get shot. as sad as it is.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 27, 2016 - 12:25pm PT
Majid S,

you nuked your thread from yesterday. How come?

It's a conversation worth having, imo.

I was curious and would like to follow up.

(1) Are you yourself Muslim?

(2) If so liberal Muslim? just curious.

(3) What do you make of Asra Nomani?

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Asra Nomani, hero or villain?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWNv97yq4Fc

http://mail.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2757232&msg=2757243#msg2757243
slabbo

Trad climber
colo south
Jan 27, 2016 - 12:36pm PT
I have to comment on the Sushi stuff....I know a sushifest in penitente a few years was w/o issue..It was in fact a BLM sanctioned event. It wasn't for profit, for anyone..not Nature,,not the brewery .. not petzl or any of the sponsors and certainly not for anyone helping a rebolt effort

silly to compare
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 27, 2016 - 12:51pm PT
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 27, 2016 - 01:16pm PT
Looks like the Wal-martyr's are not ready to give up on their dream:

[Click to View YouTube Video]
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jan 27, 2016 - 01:17pm PT
"Drooling Zombies"; an apt description.

Let's hope none of the brain dead here develops independence of thought, witnesses injustice, and takes a stand for freedom. If this unlikely event should ever occur, let's just hope you pick a more appropriate venue for your stand than the protester gunned down yesterday.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jan 27, 2016 - 01:33pm PT
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jan 27, 2016 - 01:36pm PT
"Yeah a sushi fest that skirts laws is no different than a cattleman who breaks laws. "

Oh for f*#ks sake.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 27, 2016 - 01:42pm PT
These guys aren't the sharpest tools in the shed. They were dealt a bad hand and played it badly, sure, but we who are more fortunate have to think "there but for the grace of god."
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 27, 2016 - 01:55pm PT
Sumner is referring to the armed "protester" who took of with his truck to get away from a legal stop then tried to evade a blockade but wound up in the snow, before charging towards authorities.


[Click to View YouTube Video]
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 27, 2016 - 02:14pm PT
a strange post, majid, i'll assume intentional
and you don't want to discuss it further, fair enough.

in my book, Asra Nomani is a hero and a lot of libs with
"islamophobic" and "bigot" on their lips should try listening more
carefully to what she's actually saying.

majid, I would hope you don't support sharia. Nuff said.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 27, 2016 - 02:59pm PT
There are no laws in this United States now. This is a free for all armageddon. If they stop you from getting here KILL THEM!
At 3:15 of the just posted video.

Any questions about this protesters future plans??
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 27, 2016 - 03:07pm PT
survival - nope. That video is too telling of what these f*#king morons are thinking.

I'm no way happy about the bloodshed. I'll never ever state they "deserved this". but if people are stupid enough to arm up, and attack the Feds in a gun battle then it's hard not to conclude they are getting what they are requesting. Especially if someone one is stupid enough to now travel TO the area looking for a fight. F*#king Wal-martyr's.



And I gotta say I just have to laugh at these militia men (as a whole). Fat f*#kers like that with their fire arms really believe that if push came to shove and it was time to go to war against the most elite military on the planet they'd stand a chance? Riiiight. Guns against tanks and fighter jets. Can't fix stupid especially when it's so inbred.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jan 27, 2016 - 03:23pm PT
Frustrated lives seeking suicide by Feds.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jan 27, 2016 - 03:35pm PT
Update from Carson City and the Burns Brigade:

IHOP is offering a two for one breakfast special on Friday. Special Guest speaker will be a local gun store employee who plans to discuss the benefits of 22lr for varmint hunting and stuffing.
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Kelly Morgan, Whitefish MT
Jan 27, 2016 - 04:04pm PT
This whole thing is just too weird.


"Wearin' Diapers and slappin' bellies"?


[Click to View YouTube Video]
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jan 27, 2016 - 04:05pm PT
Jaybro,exactly what I mean when I said"They are getting what is coming to them".




[Click to View YouTube Video]
That is "Independence of Thought".
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 27, 2016 - 04:54pm PT
^^ man, that guy is really pink. Reminds me of a domestic pig.

StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jan 27, 2016 - 05:00pm PT
They are really, really disturbed, and they have a lot of big guns.

God bless the 2nd amendment.

Anyone think that is well regulated militia?

Git sum
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 27, 2016 - 06:02pm PT
Saw a picture of a tank at a roadblock. Can anyone authenticate?
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 27, 2016 - 06:20pm PT
Escopeta! Re your post:

Saw a picture of a tank at a roadblock. Can anyone authenticate?


Please, share the photo, so the pundits here can debate on whether or not it's a tank.

I've seen some armored vehicles at the roadblocks, but nothing that qualifies as a tank in my Idaho mind.

And another Idaho note! I was shocked to see that Ammon Bundy's address when he was booked, was Emmett Idaho. Before that he had been reported as residing in Arizona. Tonight on local NBC news, it was confirmed his wife is in residence at their Emmett Ranchette, but refusing interviews.

Heidi's parents family farm is just over the hill south of Emmett. Jest imagine, her family are nearly next-door neighbors.

Don't get me started on "Emmenittes!"
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2016 - 06:27pm PT
Looks like the revolution is ending with a whimper. Nobody came to rescue them, the cowards folded. There will be at least 10 nut cases that are barred from carrying a weapon for the rest of their life. Gun control does work

https://twitter.com/RealDavidFry
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 27, 2016 - 06:28pm PT
Why are people from Emmett pro-freedom?
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 27, 2016 - 06:32pm PT
Because everyone everywhere is?
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 27, 2016 - 06:34pm PT
I'll see if I can find the link but apparently Mr. Bundy has instructed the rest of the whackjobs to leave the "compound".
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2016 - 06:39pm PT
Ammon's lawyer read a statement telling the holdouts to go home. Apparently Ammon's wife is whackier than Ammon, I think she was hoping Ammon got kilt.

https://www.facebook.com/bundyranch/posts/951803264896482
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 27, 2016 - 06:56pm PT
Here's your link.

http://katu.com/news/local/through-attorney-ammon-bundy-tells-remaining-occupiers-to-stand-down
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jan 27, 2016 - 06:58pm PT
Atcha, you are the funniest person on this forum, bar none.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 27, 2016 - 07:11pm PT
Escopeta! Re your question:

Why are people from Emmett pro-freedom?


Why not?

In my college daze. my Emmettite pal John had enough of a pot-gut, that he could mold a large bowl to it, suck in his breath while smoking a doob, and stick the bowl to his pot-gut.

In the 1960's we were perhaps more easily amused, than folks nowdays.

John married when he was 21, dropped out, and moved back to Emmett to work at the sawmill. Haven't heard anything since.

Hopefully he's not in the militia.
kattz

climber
Jan 27, 2016 - 07:18pm PT
From the looks of these, Mahleur's gonna need Meth Lab cleanup crew...
Hope these won't blow up some Walmart now.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 27, 2016 - 07:55pm PT
Apologies. Language is important (including puncutation).

S/B

Why? Are people from Emmett pro-freedom?
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 27, 2016 - 08:09pm PT
Escopeta! Re your newly crafted question, I don't currently have any friends in Emmett. Thus, I am not qualified to answer your question.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 27, 2016 - 08:28pm PT
Don't get me started on "Emmenittes!"

I got a different impression from the quoted statement. Perhaps I misunderstood
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 27, 2016 - 09:10pm PT
Escopeta. Re your mention:

I got a different impression from the quoted statement. Perhaps I misunderstood


Perhaps you did. My "Emmenitte" stories are all from long before now.

Or not.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 28, 2016 - 01:04am PT
According to KATU, 3 more guys arrested at checkpoint leaving refuge without incident.
Duane Ehmer, Dylan Anderson, and Jason Patrick. Arrests were at two separate times.
Several vehicles left Tuesday night before roadblocks were set up. So there's definitely a number of Y'allqueda on the loose, but that's nothing new. More freedom loving drama in the future, that's for sure...
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jan 28, 2016 - 06:14am PT
Jan 28, 2016 - 01:53am PT
jonnyrig

climber
Jan 28, 2016 - 06:32am PT
This kind of rhetoric


Fritzee is a snarky little'ol burnt-out man living in the midst of his werst wet-dream. Republi-Choss-Creek-Ave. Master at cunty ol'man slander on his bastion...the tard-net. FZee....you stink ol'brahjj. Diaper change n0 ?? ;-(

is part of the problem.

Time to quit perpetuating the bullsh#t.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 28, 2016 - 06:35am PT
Ah, but Potatohead has had it in for me ever since (tongue firmly in cheek) I posted that his beloved Boise sucks.

But he has developed a new love of drunk-posting.

He Seems to be good at it.

Everyone should have a hobby.
jonnyrig

climber
Jan 28, 2016 - 06:38am PT
I like Boise. Met a girl there at a bar and took her home, on several occasions. Same girl, same bar. Never was a relationship; but sure was a good time. Yep, Boise's just fine if you don't hold too high a set of standards.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 28, 2016 - 06:45am PT
jonnyrig. Boise is a fine little city, for a city. What potatohead didn't/doesn't understand is that most of us Idaho natives don't like to say anything good about our state, for fear that even more Californians will move here.

Back in 1975 I even paid to have this bumper-sticker printed.

Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 28, 2016 - 06:47am PT
“There are no laws in this United States now! This is a free-for-all Armageddon!” a heavyset man holding a rifle yelled into a camera transmitting from the refuge. He urged others to join those at the protest site, adding that if “they stop you from getting here, kill them!”

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son.

I'll bet some of you guys think this is over.
Ezra Ellis

Trad climber
North wet, and Da souf
Jan 28, 2016 - 07:58am PT
I am calling this as krakauer's next book ;)
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 28, 2016 - 08:05am PT
FBI: Oregon occupying group had explosives, night vision goggles; three more arrested


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/01/28/authorities-blockade-oregon-wildlife-refuge-as-occupation-dwindles-but-continues/

I keep seeing the word militia.

Now that arrests have been made it will be interesting to see if any of these 'militiamen' have actual military experience or if they were all home schooled.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 28, 2016 - 08:16am PT
There's no laws agin having night vision gear, is there? If so a lotta birdwatchers could go down.
overwatch

climber
Jan 28, 2016 - 08:19am PT
Not yet
dirtbag

climber
Jan 28, 2016 - 08:22am PT
A troubling trend? The Malheur takeover suggests that militia nuts might be switching from a defensive to an offensive posture, especially with the martyrdom of Finnicum.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/in-oregon-siege-troubling-signs-of-a-movement-on-the-offensive/2016/01/27/316f8c9e-c514-11e5-8965-0607e0e265ce_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_patriots-928pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory
WBraun

climber
Jan 28, 2016 - 08:23am PT
This summer there will be a Jade Target.

They will be coming for your night vision goggles from the tunnels under Target stores .....
overwatch

climber
Jan 28, 2016 - 08:25am PT
I put my night vision where it is most useful, on top of my rifle.

Edit:

Actually I would love a set of goggles, but I am too poor/cheap
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 28, 2016 - 08:27am PT
Explosives on the other hand are banned.

Additionally, when combined with threats to burn down houses, ample guns and ammunition the legal status of the goggles is certainly a 'non-mitigating' fact.

Defense summation: "your honor night goggles are not illegal"

Your honor: "so?"
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 28, 2016 - 08:29am PT
I bet you there's a lotta stinky underwear at Malheur now and there's gotta be laws agin that!
overwatch

climber
Jan 28, 2016 - 08:29am PT
That, Mr. Brown, is a good point. Goes to their intention.

Reilly,
Especially with the obvious butt itch they have.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 28, 2016 - 08:40am PT
Nope, no law against. However, the FLIR Vue IR sensor I own is controlled against export. I'm registered with the State Department as owning it. It's considered a weapon.
kattz

climber
Jan 28, 2016 - 09:04am PT
I can't believe that clown Blaine Cooper isn't being charged with anything so far and is walking free. This applies to other loonies. As a minimum they should be mandated to do community service to clean up Malheur headquarters. Are they sending a message that destruction of property is OK? CPC even gave Cooper kids back to his nut job wife, who occupying compound for quite a while herself. Two loonies dump their kids and go on rampage...and get them right back?? They should lose their custody, at least to other relatives, definitely, who won't raise them militants. I'm just hoping they're holding back the charges for now to get the rest out of Malheur, to bring them all later.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2016 - 09:09am PT
Blaine Cooper is a snitch. Pete Santilli Lace is not a snitch, just an egomaniac
kattz

climber
Jan 28, 2016 - 09:10am PT
Most assuredly Cooper is a snitch. Why would he be getting all these favors otherwise. Anyway, he looks like someone who wouldn't survive for a long time without spa access, so no surprises. I'd expect, though, even snitches to get a slap on the wrist.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 28, 2016 - 09:39am PT
Nope, no law against. However, the FLIR Vue IR sensor I own is controlled against export. I'm registered with the State Department as owning it. It's considered a weapon.

Can I get a free reviewers [pun] evaluation model?


Freebie or none, that is really cool info.

kattz

climber
Jan 28, 2016 - 09:49am PT
The live stream is now looking like Swamp People came to meet Honey BooBoo.. at this point feds could just come in and use tranquilizer darts, but there's a danger of it mixing with all the meth in their system probably. I can see these guys getting rich having own reality show, eventually.
PAUL SOUZA

Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
Jan 28, 2016 - 10:09am PT
Levoy Finicum, the guy that was killed, had a book out on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Only-Blood-Suffering-LAVOY-FINICUM/dp/193773594X
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 28, 2016 - 10:12am PT
That title....(and subtitle....)
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 28, 2016 - 10:18am PT
zBrown - yeah, that's the model. $3200 later ($3700 after I upgrade it to the Pro version)

Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 28, 2016 - 10:21am PT
Just posted on KTVB news, http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/2016/01/28/oregon-holdouts-willing-leave-if-no-arrests/79463210/


BURNS, Ore. -- A video posted by the holdouts occupying an Oregon wildlife refuge says the remaining five members of the armed group will leave if none of them face arrest.

The statement was posted early Thursday to the YouTube channel "DefendYourBase," which the group has been using to give live updates from Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. David Fry has made frequent posts, but no face was visible in the video.

It shows a campfire while a man says authorities told the group that "out of five people left here, four of us are allowed to leave."

The video says the FBI told them that one of the remaining occupiers faces a federal felony charge. The video says "we are willing to stay here" unless authorities agree to drop it.

The FBI has established checkpoints around the refuge. Eleven other people have been arrested in connection to the standoff.




nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 28, 2016 - 10:32am PT
One out of the five is effectively "The Mole".

Take your chances boys. GTFO
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 28, 2016 - 10:40am PT
Why would anybody waste time or personnel with a mole for a group that is live streaming their illegal activities?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 28, 2016 - 10:45am PT
At least they aren't letting these guys all walk away like with the other Bundy incident.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 28, 2016 - 10:45am PT
That's not what I mean. The statement is four of the five can leave. Only one will be arrested. The question is which one - thus that one is "The Mole" (in quotes for a reason).
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Jan 28, 2016 - 10:51am PT
If I was "the Mole" and this pack of JuicyFruits were sticking together like gum in a pack Wrigleys left in a jeans shorts for a week in summer, I'd be like "F you all! I'm out of here!"

But, if that fat guy who was spouting off about "If they stop you kill them" is still there, then he would probably be the one to be arrested.

I guess they're intending to let the Sumo wrestling guy go. Was that real or a joke video?
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 28, 2016 - 10:53am PT
Oh it's real. Those inbreds are batshit crazy
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 28, 2016 - 10:53am PT
I suddenly started imagining Rifleman Ron, Rokjox and The Chief on this thread.

I'm smiling and smoke is coming out of my ears at the same time.......


Edit: Please god, whatever god there is, please let them arrest "Free For All Armageddon Boy."
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2016 - 11:06am PT
They want to arrest the beady-eyed pigman who stuck his face into the camera and encouraged the "rescuers" to kill LE. Sean I think is his name? Greasy Dave Frye (he is getting purty ripe too) is the public face of this incredibly stupid force of four. I say America has its favorite birding spot back by sundown
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Kelly Morgan, Whitefish MT
Jan 28, 2016 - 12:15pm PT
Happiegrrrl- I'm pretty sure the Sumo video is real. At first I thought it was satire (which I love), but then I found the article in the Oregonian.

http://www.oregonlive.com/geek/2016/01/watch_oregon_militant_challeng.html

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 28, 2016 - 12:17pm PT
But Finicum, with police in hot pursuit, attempted to leave the main road and drove into a snow bank. When he emerged from the vehicle, FBI and state police ordered him to surrender. That's when, authorities say, Finicum reached down toward his waistband where he had a gun.

The SWAT team opened fire. Finicum was killed. Ryan Bundy suffered a light wound on his arm.

The shooting was captured on camera by the SWAT team. FBI and Oregon police officials are discussing possibly releasing the video, in part to counter claims by supporters that Finicum was gunned down while trying to surrender.


I hope they release the video, only because there is so much noise about Lavoy being innocent, unarmed, and hands in the air.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 28, 2016 - 12:38pm PT
"We're asking them to just drop the charges," Fry said. "And nobody dies."

Any guesses on this guy's IQ?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 28, 2016 - 12:52pm PT
I heard an interview with Finicum's son today. I believe it was after his dad died. In any
event he was very well-spoken and level-headed. He basically said he didn't quite get his
dad's radicalness and that he'd always been peaceful but that he loved him in spite of it.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jan 28, 2016 - 12:53pm PT
It is probably quite low, but not so low that he doesn't finally understand he has screwed himself and his lovely bride.

I am not sure he has the capacity for abstract thought however...

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 28, 2016 - 01:39pm PT
Jan 28, 2016 - 10:09am PT
Levoy Finicum, the guy that was killed, had a book out on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Only-Blood-Suffering-LAVOY-FINICUM/dp/193773594X

Here's a piece of what he wrote:

nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 28, 2016 - 01:47pm PT
I hope they release the video, only because there is so much noise about Lavoy being innocent, unarmed, and hands in the air.

Problem is even if it is clearly evident in the video it won't matter. These nutjobs will call it a fake and part of a conspiracy. It's the same old record. can't fix stupid.
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Karkoekstan
Jan 28, 2016 - 03:38pm PT
High Fructose Corn Spirit

the topic that you are trying to explore is externally complex
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 28, 2016 - 03:45pm PT
I looked at some of the reviews for Fincum's book on Amazon. Lots of people leaving reviews today, mostly positive, I'm sorry to say.

However! This 5-star positive review brought a smile to my face:

ByLucky Thoreauon January 27, 2016

A truly new American voice in literature. Sadly silenced forever. It's my only hope he read my gift of Mary Renault's "The Persian Boy," which I included in my survival box to the Patriots of Oregon along with the five bottles of Paris Hilton's, "Just Me," spray cologne for men, powdered Lobster Newburg Sauce (just add butter and milk) and an eight track copy of "Doug Clark and his Hot Nuts," greatest hits.

A fair number of reviews in the last few weeks are not sympathetic to his "end-times" vision.

Those of you familiar with the high desert of the Four Corners region know what kind of a rugged landscape is, and it's winter and snowing to boot - but no worries, these kids are H.E.A.L.T.H.Y. and can handle it all. Plus, any dangerous peeps about and they're loaded to the hilt with firearms, just like Dad (with a capital D) taught them. Oh, and since Dad (with a capital D) was wise and believed in an old prophecy by one of the Mormon gurus, he's been stocking up on food for years and even stashing it in super-secret places all over all the back roads leading to the ranch for the kids to find it on their way through the dangerous high country. And they actually found those caches, despite the heavy snow. For realz.

SPOILERS AHEAD: after the kids get to the ranch and everyone's safe (except Dad's wife who didn't believe in carrying guns, so the baddies knocked her off in the first chapter), there's all kinds of kerfuffles in the community over them having lots of food stashed away and it should be shared with everyone else who wasn't smart enough to stash away. That all leads to a big stand off and our 'hero' packs up his guns and thus ensues some big shoot-em-up. Why he would fire on his neighbors and not negotiate? Dunno, but even worse afterwards our 'hero' is judge, jury and executioner over a female government employee that he resented over the whole thing and ----------->>>>real spoiler---->>>he strung her up on his rope and (sic) hung her.

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2016 - 03:46pm PT
Looks like the party is over. Greasy Dave will live to occupy another bird refuge
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 28, 2016 - 03:51pm PT
John Sepulveda from OPB says something is going down.



And Ammon Bundy has his own donut here at Portland's famous Voodoo Donuts.

Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 28, 2016 - 04:12pm PT
The refuge is said to be "secure" possible suicide or suicide by cop for the last holdout

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 28, 2016 - 04:28pm PT
So it ends with a bang AND a whimper.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 28, 2016 - 04:46pm PT
Don't be too sure.

Oregonian reports "thousands called" by Pacific Patriot Network to protest and force FBI to leave the area.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/thousands_called_to_burns_to_t.html#incart_maj-story-1



http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/oregon-malheur-refuge-militants-leave/



dirtbag

climber
Jan 28, 2016 - 04:51pm PT
At some point, i think conspiracy charges may apply to the patriots actions.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jan 28, 2016 - 04:52pm PT
Another Fool's Errand. The people inciting this are going to get more idiots killed. They have no consentience and no honor. Shame on them.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 28, 2016 - 04:54pm PT
Food for thought.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/violence-tragedy-and-nonsense
WBraun

climber
Jan 28, 2016 - 04:55pm PT
The Putinator will show up tomorrow by submarine to save the day for them.

Source is from the Quackinator ....
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 28, 2016 - 05:04pm PT

Jan 28, 2016 - 04:55pm PT
The Putinator will show up tomorrow by submarine to save the day for them.

Source is from the Quackinator ....

I gotta hand it to you. Not everyone can invent their own memes.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 28, 2016 - 05:34pm PT
From the linked Oregonian article: it sounds like the CowQuida folks are accusing the FBI of lying to them, about who would be arrested when the Terrorists fled their fiasco. http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/thousands_called_to_burns_to_t.html#incart_maj-story-1


Fritz shuffles his feet.

Somehow I can't summon up any outrage about the FBI lying to revolutionaries & terrorists, in order to end their occupation of OUR property.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 28, 2016 - 05:42pm PT
If you aren't getting a live feed. It's here


http://legacy.kgw.com/videos/news/local/2015/05/07/13749341/
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Jan 28, 2016 - 05:43pm PT
Live FBI News Briefing in 5 minutes

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/live_updates_fbi_holds_news_co.html#incart_story_package
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 28, 2016 - 06:01pm PT
Ok this is as clear as it gets. Lavoy got shot when his hands went to his pocket, which turned out to have a 9mm handgun in it.

Tragic, but suicide by cop.

State trooper did the shooting.

Lavoy almost hit an LEO when he went off the road.
nah000

climber
no/w/here
Jan 28, 2016 - 06:14pm PT
this is nsfl... in other words starting at about 9:15 in the video it's plain to see what directly preceded the shooting, as the video shows explicitly what happened. so, if you don't want to see a man get shot, don't hit play...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

this is one of the reasons why cops should wear cams... for their own protection.

while there will still be idiots who will say he had his hands up, as he did start that way, anybody with eyes can see that it's very clear he wasn't shot while on his knees and/nor with his hands in the air.
kattz

climber
Jan 28, 2016 - 06:28pm PT
They sure had a nerve....driving around like no tomorrow, while occupying federal property, menacing and calling for violence...surprise, a roadblock! Who could think!?
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 28, 2016 - 06:31pm PT
I watched the video.

My condolences to Mr. Fincum's family & friends.

However, I offer up my heartfelt sympathies to OUR law enforcement officers, that had to shoot him, before he started shooting them.

Suicide by cop, clean for Mr. Fincum, and ugly for everyone else involved.



tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jan 28, 2016 - 06:33pm PT
Can't fix stupid.. trump and cruz supporters all day long.....
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Jan 28, 2016 - 06:39pm PT

Unfortunately, if one lives by the sword, they usually die by
the sword.
kattz

climber
Jan 28, 2016 - 06:39pm PT
Bundy and Co. even here had complete disregard for public property. What about other people who needed to use why 395 for peaceful travel? (rather than for suicides by cop, high speed chases or standing in roadblocks) No regard for "common man" by these wannabe cattle barons...they think they own everything.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jan 28, 2016 - 06:46pm PT
Exactly Mr.Brennan.
WBraun

climber
Jan 28, 2016 - 07:03pm PT
Why does anyone who posted sadness at the people who chose to die at their own hand or be killed bum rushing civil authorities, feel this way ?


It's a normal human beings true nature reaction.

By it's normal true nature a human being is very compassionate ......

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 28, 2016 - 07:15pm PT
Tragic really. The guy was a simple sort who clearly stated he wasn't going to a concrete cell. Seems like he got caught up in this odd group with no real plan and didn't have the brain capacity to think the situation through. He didn't strike me as evil or anything, maybe just the opposite but lacking a worthy cause and latched onto this dead-end group.

But still, from the video... perfectly legitimate shooting. They really didn't have a choice and he did run that one guy right down to the left of the roadblock.
kattz

climber
Jan 28, 2016 - 07:18pm PT
Finicum was expendable for the clique that was pulling the strings (Bundy clan)...they got their poster victim, themselves alive and working on plea deals...now they're gonna exploit it all to the max, I'm sure. Let's see if Bundy will actually do any time in prison...instead of being in Hollywood working on some "movie deal"
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 28, 2016 - 07:30pm PT
I think you will find the cop jumped out towards the path of the truck. Go thru it frame by frame. Pretty obvious.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 28, 2016 - 07:36pm PT
Welcome to our new poster Kattz!

Of course we are curious about you, since your history on Supertopo is 12 posts, all on this thread, since yesterday.

We'd enjoy knowing more about you, other than just your thoughts on this thread?
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Kelly Morgan, Whitefish MT
Jan 28, 2016 - 07:37pm PT
Your right Monolith. The officer ran right into the path of truck. Puzzling.


The worst tragedy about this whole idiotic affair is that man's children no longer have a father. I can't imagine them watching this video. Very sad.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2016 - 07:41pm PT
Bundy will do serious time, federal law mandates minimum sentences, no probation. Ask the Hammonds about that.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 28, 2016 - 07:44pm PT
Fritz und Kattz



Who cares?
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 28, 2016 - 07:52pm PT
Jest curious as a Katz.

jonnyrig

climber
Jan 28, 2016 - 07:52pm PT
Go walk out on a freeway with some speeding vehicles coming at you, while standing in front of a stopped one that obscures your view. Which way will you go?

Far as the dead man, bad choice to put your hands in your pockets given the situation. Out of all the LE there, only one of them opened fire? Far more controlled than a lot of the common LE shootings that seem to happen these days.

WWJD? I'm sure hell' be along shortly to tell us.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 28, 2016 - 08:03pm PT
Did I say that?
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 28, 2016 - 08:05pm PT

Jan 28, 2016 - 07:30pm PT
I think you will find the cop jumped out towards the path of the truck. Go thru it frame by frame. Pretty obvious.

Seriously, you are as much a loon as Lavoy.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 28, 2016 - 08:08pm PT
No where did I say an officer shouldn't jump towards the path of a vehicle.

I only stated the facts of what happened in the vid.

Relax, boys.
kattz

climber
Jan 28, 2016 - 08:15pm PT
Not much about me, Fritz! This story prompted me to post, on this particular topic, for variety of reasons. If you had seen my original post, you probably would would see why, in part, plus I'd traveled and plant to travel more around these parts of OR and some time before almost bought a house out there. Certainly wouldn't want some looneys to come and run things, wherever I am, I had been personally terrorized by such types in the past, having lived in Deep South as well.

That cop was pretty damn brave, I think, unlike the Banjo boys.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 28, 2016 - 08:20pm PT
Kattz! Thank you for sharing a little-bit about yourself. It's always good to know where new posters on this thread are coming from.

I Appreciate it.
nah000

climber
no/w/here
Jan 28, 2016 - 08:24pm PT
huh?

wow, Brennan and Lorenzo...

project much?

hope i never have to send an email about something contentious to one of you guys... :)
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 28, 2016 - 08:42pm PT

Jan 28, 2016 - 08:24pm PT
huh?

wow, Brennan and Lorenzo...

project much?

hope i never have to send an email about something contentious to one of you guys... :)

Finicum DROVE OFF THE ROAD and almost hit the guy.

He had no regard for anyone at any time but for himself. The cops would have bee justified in shooting him before he got out of the car.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 28, 2016 - 08:43pm PT
Yep, an no one said they did not have that right.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 28, 2016 - 08:48pm PT
I'm fine with him getting shot. What's your problem?

I bet nah000 is too.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Jan 28, 2016 - 08:49pm PT
It is sad about someone dieing because there cause is bullsh#t. He obviously led an ok life, 11 kids. Makes you wonder WTF is wrong with someone so twisted in the head to believe in their cause.

He deserved what he got, but its still sad.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 28, 2016 - 08:51pm PT
There you go. Your reading comprehension was biased by some agenda.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 28, 2016 - 08:51pm PT
Thanks Lorenzo, but I want to add my thoughts to your post.

Finicum DROVE OFF THE ROAD and almost hit the guy.


He drove off the road At a high rate of speed, intending to cut around the roadblock and keep going! The now-expired desert-dweller, Mr. Finicum didn't know about what driving into deep snow does to a speeding vehicle.

kattz

climber
Jan 28, 2016 - 09:03pm PT
Oh, and some of the finest bird songs I ever heard were in the Eastern Washington, definitely... don't want to hear their cows mooing all night instead!
nah000

climber
no/w/here
Jan 28, 2016 - 09:03pm PT
L+B: i don't disagree [and it doesn't appear monolith does either] with anything you guys are writing [except what you're reading into what monolith wrote]

to be clear: a nutjub was driving towards a cop car at a high rate of speed after recklessly taking off from a police pull over, a cop likely tried to run/dive out of the way of the nutjob, the nutjob swerved and almost ran him over as the cop ran in the direction that the nut job swerved.

nutjob is completely at fault at every stage of the game, and then continued nutjobbery into getting himself shot...

to be honest, i have absolutely no idea why this conversation is happening at all, when all of us agree... [at least i think we do...]



now that we've got that clear hahaha i'm curious if you could rephrase this mr. B: "You have a problem in thinking what you post is reality based on presumption."

it sounds interesting and you might even be correct... but i've reread it half a dozen times now and can't say i understand exactly what you're trying to say...
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 28, 2016 - 09:12pm PT
Suicide by cop. now that makes me angry. selfish motherf*#ker.
dirtbag

climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 06:59am PT
The short version is that there is no excuse or mitigating circumstance available for the moron who fulfilled his sense of manifest destiny...

Yes, but they will make that dipshit a martyr anyway.
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Kelly Morgan, Whitefish MT
Jan 29, 2016 - 07:15am PT
Wow Jim, overreact much?

Nobody here is trying to impune the officers Jim. We're pointing out something odd we saw on a video. Nothing more than that.

I respect these officers for stopping the bad guys. I'm not happy about the death, but he brought it on himself.

Your reaction illustrates why many of us do not care to participate in these discussions. Please tone it down a bit.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 29, 2016 - 07:20am PT
Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it... well, he gets it.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jan 29, 2016 - 07:35am PT
At least he walked away from the car before committing suicide by cop. Probably saved the rest of the folks in the car.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 29, 2016 - 07:39am PT
The Schofield Kid: [after killing a man for the first time] It don't seem real... how he ain't gonna never breathe again, ever... how he's dead. And the other one too. All on account of pulling a trigger.

Will Munny: It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have.

The Schofield Kid: Yeah, well, I guess they had it coming.

Will Munny: We all got it coming, kid.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 29, 2016 - 08:05am PT
This is the best footage I've seen. It shows the initial stop on the white pickup, 7 minutes or so of no one getting out of the rig before Finicum speeds off. Lots of close-ups.

9:20 is about where he hits the roadblock. You clearly see him reach for his pockets more than once. 9:30 he's down. Then you see the flash bangs going off. It does appear that you can see rounds hitting the truck after that. In the 10 minutes following, you finally see the other occupants get out 1 at a time and go into custody.

http://katu.com/news/local/fbi-finic#m-nearly-struck-agent-reached-for-loaded-weapon-before-he-was-shot-and-killed

Amazing drone footage. Gotta be a drone, a chopper can hover and would have no reason to continue to obscure its own vision with trees. This thing continues to circle slowly no matter what is happening on the ground.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 29, 2016 - 08:18am PT
given the rate of pursuit, air time, and quality of video, I don't see any way that's a sUA. Not to mention that if it turned into a long distance chase a manned vehicle would be required. There's also not a single person on the ground that appears to be an operator.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jan 29, 2016 - 08:21am PT

given the rate of pursuit, air time, and quality of video, I don't see any way that's a sUA. Not to mention that if it turned into a long distance chase a manned vehicle would be required. There's also not a single person on the ground that appears to be an operator.

It was a plane.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 29, 2016 - 08:22am PT
Hmm, wonder what it is then? There's no hovering apparent, only a constant slow counterclockwise circle, with plenty of adjustments to zoom and focus.

A plane makes sense. Looka me, jumping to conclusions. My mistake.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 29, 2016 - 08:23am PT
Sponge bullets hit the trucks after flashbangs. Less than lethal but persuasive.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 29, 2016 - 08:40am PT
edit: 10b4me looks to be correct:
http://cincinnatibell.net/news/read/category/US%20News/article/afp-armored_vehicles_roll_into_oregon_refuge-afp
WBraun

climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 08:44am PT
The FBI clearly said "Plane"

"The FBI did have a plane in the air, and what I am about to show you is a video from that plane."

Maybe it wasn't?
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Kelly Morgan, Whitefish MT
Jan 29, 2016 - 08:45am PT
I wonder if the FBI will release any more footage. At least one of those vehicles must have had a camera running.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 08:55am PT
Maybe it wasn't?


SO MANY FALSE FLAGS
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jan 29, 2016 - 09:00am PT
Unless a plane can stop and hover it must have been a helicopter.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 09:12am PT
PLANE DOES NOT TAKE OFF
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Jan 29, 2016 - 09:43am PT
"Hands' up. Don't shoot."

[Click to View YouTube Video]
dirtbag

climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 09:48am PT
Actually, stay in the f*#king truck. Then keep your hands out of your pocket.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 10:02am PT
Here's how it's done...

Subject in vehicle attempts to circumvent road block.

FBI agent on foot sees attempt, then traverses into oncoming path of vehicle.

Story reads: (Subject) "nearly hits an FBI agent."

...

Story does Not Read: Subject in vehicle, in attempting to avoid hitting FBI agent who places himself in front of moving vehicle, incapacitates vehicle in deep snow.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 29, 2016 - 10:19am PT
He was heading into the roadblock. The officer saw him, and tried to jump out of the path. The driver then drives into the snow trying to get around the roadblock.

You really think the officer was deliberately jumping into the path of that truck?
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jan 29, 2016 - 10:25am PT
There was an old man
Named LaVoy Finicum
He had a loaded gun
Reaching for it was dumb
The Feds blew them off
And blew them on again
Poor old LaVoy Finicum

Too early?
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jan 29, 2016 - 10:34am PT
I don't see him trying to stop at all. I see him trying to get around at speed.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 10:38am PT
I swear this thread's proof human IQ is indeed 100, ST forum's IQ probably 10-15 points lower.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 29, 2016 - 10:40am PT
Luckily we have brain surgeons like you to guide us.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 10:42am PT
To give the guy the benefit of the doubt, although I really find it hard to believe he wouldn't have anticipated a road block up the road, he came around the curve and had only an instant to react.

Instinct would tell a person to avoid smashing into hard, heavy, metal objects and go for the softer impact. Bicyclists on the road well know that a damned car driver will often run THEM off the road instead of risking hitting an oncoming vehicle, even though they could kill the cyclist. Instinct is self-preservation.

I don't know if the guy was trying to evade the block; maybe someone in the vehicle would be able to say. But without that sort of first-hand information, one can only guess.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 10:44am PT
HFCS posted
Story reads: (Subject) "nearly hits an FBI agent."

He DID nearly hit a FBI agent. He doesn't appear to have been intending to. The problem is you are ascribing a tone of blame to the statement instead of hearing it as an observation.

Regardless of whether you intend to or not, if you are driving at a law enforcement road block with the intent to circumvent it and you hit or nearly hit someone you bear the responsibility for that.
dirtbag

climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 10:45am PT
Even if true happie, he should've stayed in the car and not put his hands in a pocket where a gun might be located.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 10:45am PT
Still carrying that chip on your shoulder, I see.

.....

dirtbag, at that point he was probably redlined emotionally and ready to die. He had already stated there wouldn't be any cage or cell in his future.


hddj, I agree with your post actually. My post was pretty factual as well. That being... this is how it's done. All part of the roadblock and story writeup strategies.
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Jan 29, 2016 - 10:48am PT
Classic
Everyone see the same thing, everyone says something different.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 10:50am PT
Delhi Dog's post: True. We can't help putting ourselves in the shoes, from our safe distance.


Oh - yeah, I agree that he should not have removed his arms from surrender position, if he did indeed intend to surrender. Probably more will come out as the investigation continues.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 11:04am PT
Everyone see the same thing, everyone says something different.

Yeah, and how much of that is due to inexperience and incompetence?

Put your selves in the head of that agent who traverses into the path of the truck under those conditions.

If I were that agent and intent on "getting my man" like Jonny Utah, perhaps I would've done the very same thing. Knowing the condition of the snow bank, the parts in motion in the milliseconds beforehand, etc etc, all of it.

I'm detecting a sh#t load of naivete here.

.....

Nature, with all due respect, I suggest watching the video yet again.

The vehicle was clearly moving to "circumvent" the roadblock on the shoulder LONG BEFORE agent "busts" his move to "get his man."

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sR1hGpZQ5U

Freeze the video at 18 seconds.

How could it be more obvious.

If course you might assume the FBI AGENT is a Barney Feif. But how realistic is that?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 29, 2016 - 11:07am PT
We still haven't heard the most recent on the FINAL FOUR, David Fry, Sean Anderson, his wife, and whoever....


Here's a highlight clip of Sean Anderson.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 11:08am PT
I think the important thing here is that we all agree to pretend to know what the driver and the agent were thinking and then call each other shitheads a lot.
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Jan 29, 2016 - 11:09am PT
Cut off Sean's access to food. Would kill two birds at the same time; He'd be healthier, but too weak to respond.
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Jan 29, 2016 - 11:11am PT
Got a light?

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Folks already drooling over the movie rights...
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 29, 2016 - 11:13am PT
If I were that agent and intent on "getting my man" like Jonny Utah, perhaps I would've done the very same thing. Knowing the condition of the snow bank, the parts in motion in the milliseconds beforehand, etc etc, all of it.

If you think the best way to stop a speeding truck is to jump in front of it, maybe your IQ is below 100!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 11:16am PT
Not around snow or human nature or moving parts much, huh Gary?


(1) Where is the truck's path at 18 sec, Gary?

(2) Where is the FBI agent at 18 sec, Gary?


Look, I don't know your politics. Or how partisan they are. Or how competent or incompetent you are under such or similar circumstances. But a certain naivete is showing here.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Jan 29, 2016 - 11:18am PT
*
I did not watch the video...but listened to the report on NPR.
To give the guy the benefit of the doubt, although I really find it hard to believe he wouldn't have anticipated a road block up the road, he came around the curve and had only an instant to react.

Happi, The first vehicle of people pulled over & complied with the cops/FBI and no one got hurt... The second vehicle chose to not comply with law enforcement.. which put a different scenario into play...
.. ..

yep, shut off the power and food source to the remaining 4 at the refuge..
Extremists groups suck..






Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 29, 2016 - 11:19am PT
HFCS, ever work on a roadway much? Ever had to dodge live traffic? I have.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 11:20am PT
Answer the question.

Where is the FBI agent at the 18 sec mark?


Here, I post again for your convenience...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sR1hGpZQ5U

Freeze the video at 18 seconds.

Between 17 and 18 is even better.
At this point everything is telegraphed.


Do you know how to pause the youtube video? At 18 seconds?

Then do it.


.....

Your Jonny Utah, if his intention was to either... remove himself to an even safer space... or... to deescalate the moment... could have / would have... moved further back ON THE ROAD or TRAVERSED IN OPPOSING DIRECTION.

Get real.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 11:33am PT
btw, Survival, that human IQ on average is 100 is also factual. That a third or more of Americans believe in the Second Coming of God Jesus is also factual.

Ad ideam.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jan 29, 2016 - 11:52am PT
Put yourselves in the boots of the agents/cops. The guy is clearly not doing what he has been told. I guarantee you they were telling him get on the ground or at least put your hands behind your head. He instead chose to reach for his loaded gun. Their adrenaline is pumping, they are in self preservation mode.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 12:00pm PT
Moose, so true.

And don't astute courtroom combatants take advantage of it all the time. In regards to both innate perceptual differences and inexperience, incompetence.

Truth be damned.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 12:05pm PT
Back by popluar/unpopular demand

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2744421&msg=2758808#msg2758808




Don't mean to go all Zapruder on ya, but has anyone looked at the shooting video frame by frame (in the trigger finger section)?
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 29, 2016 - 12:15pm PT
Wait a minute.... what's up with that dress? Looked gold at first... now blue... hmmmm...

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 29, 2016 - 12:16pm PT
btw, Survival, that human IQ on average is 100 is also factual. That a third or more of Americans believe in the Second Coming of God Jesus is also factual.

I didn't say that was incorrect. But for you to be "smarter", and then jump into a comment that the average ST poster is 10-15% lower than the national average, on a thread that has, in general, been informative and reasonably well behaved, isn't necessary.

Let's keep it even keeled if we can. Werner is a super valuable and smart human being, but he can't wait to talk down to people sometimes. With his background, and all the sh#t he's been through and seen, I kinda get it.

But it would just be so easy for all of us to take a slightly higher road.

Nothing against you personally at all. Just an observation.

I agree that the cop jumped toward the rig. A poor choice all things considered, and he nearly paid a heavy price.

Probably 30-40 extremely fired up people at that spot in the universe. Lots of circumstances and choices all colliding at once. Most of them pretty damn well trained people. But as we well know, even police and feds don't make the perfect split second decision all the time.

I don't think Finicum was the most evil person involved in this whole thing at all. But he sure let his sense of self destiny get carried away in a swirling cesspool of events and bad choices by a lot of people.

The soft spoken, friendly dude with the cowboy hat, trying to live his old west fantasy found out that police don't play nice when you make them pursue you and they assume you have guns. They all have families they want to go home to, same as you.

The sad part is that he will make the perfect martyr poster child for people and groups more evil than he ever was.

The sad silver lining is that it was an Oregon State Trooper that shot him rather than a federal agent. That doesn't play into the extremist narrative. The silver lining continues that the majority of citizens were willing to speak out against this illegal action, and that the county sheriff stood against them. That and the Governor of Oregon continued to loudly state that they wanted federal support and action. That also doesn't play into the extremist "states rights" narrative.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 29, 2016 - 12:39pm PT
Just caught potato's post on page 70;



....not drunk atoll.

I'm just making a list of islands I don't want to visit,..
(it's tough enough living in Utah)
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jan 29, 2016 - 12:53pm PT
I think that the officer was running from behind his vehicle toward the safety of the roadside while the truck was still possibly going to ram his car. I think that we will hear a statement soon to confirm his split second motivations.
I'm about 12% confident in my opinion.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2016 - 12:54pm PT
Greasy Dave is still broadcasting for your viewing pleasure. It is beyond bizarre

[Click to View YouTube Video]
jstan

climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 12:59pm PT
Originally from upstate NY. Depending on how long ago that road had been plowed, it looked to me also that the road block could have been blown. In NH we once did a bank shot off the snow bank to avoid a bridge abutment. Works like a charm if you can get the rear of the car to hit first. Something like that was preventeed by the agent in this case.

The FBI agent blocking that opening was at risk in the event the driver were to pull too sharply into the embankment. Then the vehicle might have rolled and hit the whole blockade and the agent. It was a gutsy decision driven probably by the frustration of the previous month.

The man killed had been a spokesperson for the occupiers and for a month had been speaking very bluntly. This had put him in a very exposed mental position as was indicated simply by the attempt to drive away. Bottom line, he may have been assuming he would not be killed. Did not work out that way.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jan 29, 2016 - 01:00pm PT
Not sure what's better his videography or his narration.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 29, 2016 - 01:06pm PT
Jon Beck: After skimming through your post of Greasy Dave's video, sans sound, it looks like the Feds can add a new charge against the 4 hold-outs!

Litering on public property.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2016 - 01:24pm PT
Fritz - there is an ongoing effort to organize volunteers to help fix the damage to the refuge. I can not find the link now.

The work on the carp problem at the lake will hopefully resume, here is an interesting story about it and the dedicated people working on it

http://www.hcn.org/articles/carp-lady-linda-beck-malheur-standoff-could-set-back-conservation-by-three-years


Over the years, the refuge has doused the lake with Rotenone, an aquatic poison, five times. None of the treatments have worked for more than a few years. By the time Beck arrived in Burns in 2009 — she’d moved there from Montana with her husband, who’d returned to work on his father’s ranch — the problem had come to seem intractable. Beck, a longtime federal fisheries biologist who’d researched aquatic invasive species like New Zealand mud snails and whirling disease, had quit her job to relocate to Oregon. Soon after, she turned up at the refuge to volunteer. Two days later, she was hired. Now the carp were her problem.

In the years since, Beck and her colleagues have developed an ambitious carp control playbook. They have installed a bevy of screens and traps to prevent the creatures from moving between water bodies, tracked down their spawning aggregations using telemetry, and experimented with grids that blast eggs and larvae with deadly electrical currents. In 2013, Beck drained 717-acre Boca Lake, creating a smorgasbord of dying carp for pelicans and coyotes, then screened off the lake to prevent future infiltrations. Aquatic vegetation immediately rebounded, followed by bugs, birds and native fish.

Even Malheur Lake, where carp run so thick that their backs create wind-like ripples across the glassy surface, is not beyond hope. A few years back, Beck and other biologists proposed an elegant solution: opening up the lake to commercial fishermen. Hired netters would haul out the carp, which have little market value as human food, and turn them over to Silver Sage Fisheries, a subsidiary separate sister company of Tualatin-based Pacific Foods. The fish would be trucked to Burns, processed into fertilizer, and spread across fields owned by Chuck Eggert, Pacific Foods’ founder. The dead fish would nourish organic hayfields, feed for dairy cows.

“From our perspective, it’s a win-win,” Tim Greseth, executive director of the Oregon Wildlife Heritage Foundation, the nonprofit that helped broker the deal, told me. “We’re restoring the ecology of the lake, putting people to work, and benefiting private enterprise.”
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 29, 2016 - 01:51pm PT
Who's going?

Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jan 29, 2016 - 01:52pm PT
So ~maybe~ the cop thinks the nutcase driving is going to hit the car he is behind so he jumps out of the roadway into the snow. However, the fella swung off of the road and the cop was 'juked' unintentionally?? In the end what diff does it make? A lot of folks here are hella confident in their knowledge from drone footage...kinda like picking your nuts for the 3rd pitch while standing on the ground eh?
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jan 29, 2016 - 01:53pm PT
btw, Survival, that human IQ on average is 100 is also factual. That a third or more of Americans believe in the Second Coming of God Jesus is also factual.

That is a good example of what someone thinks is factual but is not in fact facual, unless the poster can read people's minds.
I assume the poster meant something like a third or more of people give a certain answer to a polling question, but who knows what those people in fact believe. In certain parts of the country and social groups, there may be strong social pressure to answer a question a certain way. Or maybe people answer in a way that makes them happy, regardless of what they really believe. Anyway, that statement is not "factual."
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 29, 2016 - 02:18pm PT
Hey, Fructose, I watched it again at your 18 second mark. I agree with what Cragar wrote. The officer was getting the hell out of the way.

You see it differently. So it goes.

My thoughts are that it's more likely the officer is thinking he doesn't want to be there when the truck rams the roadblock than he's thinking if he jumps in front of 2 tons of steel he'll have the upper hand.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 02:19pm PT
Fair enough.

That a third or more of Americans [according to polls say they] believe in the Second Coming of God Jesus is also factual.

.....

The officer was getting the hell out of the way.

Only if you're Barney Fife and fat as Governor Christie.

Like I said, if his intention was to get the hell out of the way, he would've moved further back and to the other direction.

According to reports, he was an FBI Agent. So what's more likely? he was (a) a retreating Barney or (b) a proactive, take charge, Jonny Utah?

You do know who Jonny Utah is?
Outside

Trad climber
Truckee
Jan 29, 2016 - 02:21pm PT
Fritz - there is an ongoing effort to organize volunteers to help fix the damage to the refuge. I can not find the link now.

The work on the carp problem at the lake will hopefully resume, here is an interesting story about it and the dedicated people working on it

As a former Fisheries Technician at Malheur:

There is likely no damage done to the refuge during this occupation. The buildings I'm sure will need cleaned and re-organized and it looks like they will need to repair some utility lines, all can be done internally.

There is very little outside work done at the refuge during mid-winter. Most of the work would be ongoing maintenance of the road systems,buildings, and water diversion dams and fish ladders. The Biologist is usually working on the data collected over the summer.

The Carp problem has been there for decades. Although it has progressed. Again not much to do this time of year. We had discussed bringing in a commercial outfit to use the Carp 20 years ago, but never found a company really interested, its great to hear they found one. They will never rid the lakes of Carp but they certainly can improve the water quality for the Redband Trout by removing some of them.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 29, 2016 - 02:30pm PT
You do know who Jonny Utah is?

Any relation to Utah Phillips?
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 29, 2016 - 02:33pm PT
Not sure what's better his videography or his narration.

I'm going with the videography. Sorta reminds me of SushiFest.

Well, minus the Snow.

And the Coors light.

And whatever that crap was on that paper plate.

Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jan 29, 2016 - 02:37pm PT
Like I said, if his intention was to get the hell out of the way, he would've moved further back and to the other direction.

^^ how do you know this? ^^
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 29, 2016 - 02:42pm PT
Lorenzo,

Although I'd love to attend, I can't make it to the aforementioned shindig.

I will be fully busy picking my nuts for the third pitch, from the ground, for the foreseeable future....
dirtbag

climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 02:44pm PT
Whatever the officer intended, the larger point is that Finicum should've stopped at the road block: he didn't.

He should've stayed in the car: he didn't.

He should've kept his hands up: he didn't.

He shouldn't have put his hand in his pocket: he did.

He should be alive: he isn't.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jan 29, 2016 - 02:52pm PT
HFCS is completely correct.

The agent is assuming that the truck just might be able to blow thru the roadblock thru the snow and and or the occupants may try to exit the vehicle.

All variables that needed cover from that side he was assigned to cover.

He was never standing there like crankloon would drooling and waiting to be run over.

HCFS doesnt know sh#t. show me an fbi agent willing to jump in front of a 75oo lb truck to get his man and i'll show you a dead fbi agent.

FACT, neither HCFS or anyone else on this thread has a f*#king clue about what that FBI agent was thinking. but my bet is that he thought the truck was rammning the road black and he was trying to get out of the way.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 03:02pm PT
how do you know this? -cragar

Gee I don't know, Cragar, how do we know Survival will get to the third pitch and have the nuts to do the job?

.....

HFCS is completely correct.

That's right.

Why do I get the feeling a few here DO NOT KNOW HOW TO pause a youtube video and analyze the circumstances circa 17.5 to 19.0 sec in 100ms increments?

a f*#king clue about what that FBI agent was thinking... -eyehawk


eyehawk, here's a cam placement...



I don't think you have a fuking clue whether the cam's secure... a fuking clue whether the whole granite slab behind it will trundle or not.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 29, 2016 - 03:05pm PT
Whatever the officer intended, the larger point is that Finicum should've stopped at the road block: he didn't.

He should've stayed in the car: he didn't.

He should've kept his hands up: he didn't.

He shouldn't have put his hand in his pocket: he did.

He should be alive: he isn't.



HE SHOULD HAVE COMPLIED AT THE FIRST STOP!! He didn't.
jonnyrig

climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 03:20pm PT
F*#k, if you f*#kers can't get a grip on what happened, is it any wonder what the supporters of the Bundy clan will think of it?
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jan 29, 2016 - 03:42pm PT
I'm up to 13% confidence because of the hubris and Knowitall defensiveness of the opposition and particularly the reasoned opinions of a few others.

What was that goo on the plate? There ain't enough coors light to make me eat that. For Preppers those campers are really really bad.
kattz

climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 03:44pm PT
Someone had mentioned mandatory minimum sentences earlier....The offense they're being charged with doesn't carry any minimum sentence it seems like (if I have recent info).
"conspiracy to impede officers of the United States from discharging their official duties through the use of force, intimidation or threats"

I say they'll probably cut a deal and let them walk...unless these have prior felonies.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 29, 2016 - 03:48pm PT

Jan 29, 2016 - 02:42pm PT
Lorenzo,

Although I'd love to attend, I can't make it to the aforementioned shindig.

I will be fully busy picking my nuts for the third pitch, from the ground, for the foreseeable future....

Ok, but if you change your mind, remember- no long guns or open carry. Make sure you have your concealed carry for Oregon in order, and a number 2 friend.

Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 29, 2016 - 03:52pm PT
I say they'll probably cut a deal and let them walk...unless these have prior felonies.

Alternatively, once everyone is in custody they'll add the same terrorism statute that the Hammonds are in for, or at least use the possibility as part of the plea bargain.
kattz

climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 03:54pm PT
Sure, they might be waiting for the rest to get out of Malheur, and not adding charges not to scare the rest too much.
But something tells me they're unlikely to pile charges....just the whole prior handling of that clan.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 29, 2016 - 03:56pm PT
The reality is that the statute is actually a year longer than terrorism statutes ( 6 yrs vs 5 years) unless the use of a firearm is proved.

With good behavior, it's the same time served.
kattz

climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 03:56pm PT
So does it have any mandatory minimum right now?
kattz

climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 04:09pm PT
I'm pretty sure the next thing on Bundy ranch facebook page will be a claim that a cop jumped before their truck on purpose, in hopes to get murder charges on poor Ammon...

Well, remember that girl who fell asleep at the steering wheel and plowed into several people on the highway side? She got 8 years for each, amounting to 48 years total. She wasn't even evading police, just driving. If you're evading and they got probable cause on you....and you hit someone....Bundy had a lucky star over him that day.
Lollie

Social climber
I'm Lolli.
Jan 29, 2016 - 04:14pm PT
Wow. is it still going on?
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jan 29, 2016 - 04:15pm PT
eyehawk, here's a cam placement...

I don't think you have a fuking clue whether the cam's secure... a fuking clue whether the whole granite slab behind it will trundle or not.

Well that doesn't look too bad. I would definitely trust your life with it...
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 29, 2016 - 04:20pm PT
Katz-

To answer your question, it depends on how many counts and whether the other charges are felonies or misdemeanors. The sentencing guidelines on the Cornell Law page always talk about associated charges, so there will surely be some.what they are sitting in jail for is a charge of conspiracy to commit to some other offense. The indictment document lists multiple acts for each defendant.
( 1 yr for a misdemeanor, Five year max for a felony Charge attached)

Historical and Revision Notes
Based on title 18, U.S.C., 1940 ed., §§ 88, 294 (Mar. 4, 1909, ch. 321, § 37, 35 Stat. 1096; Mar. 4, 1909, ch. 321, § 178a, as added Sept. 27, 1944, ch. 425, 58 Stat. 752).

This section consolidates said sections 88 and 294 of title 18, U.S.C., 1940 ed.

To reflect the construction placed upon said section 88 by the courts the words “or any agency thereof” were inserted. (See

Haas v. Henkel
, 1909, 30 S. Ct. 249, 216 U. S. 462, 54 L. Ed. 569, 17 Ann. Cas. 1112, where court said: “The statute is broad enough in its terms to include any conspiracy for the purpose of impairing, obstructing, or defeating the lawful functions of any department of government.” Also, see
United States v. Walter
, 1923, 44 S. Ct. 10, 263 U. S. 15, 68 L. Ed. 137, and definitions of department and agency in section 6 of this title.)
The punishment provision is completely rewritten to increase the penalty from 2 years to 5 years except where the object of the conspiracy is a misdemeanor. If the object is a misdemeanor, the maximum imprisonment for a conspiracy to commit that offense, under the revised section, cannot exceed 1 year.

The injustice of permitting a felony punishment on conviction for conspiracy to commit a misdemeanor is described by the late Hon. Grover M. Moscowitz, United States district judge for the eastern district of New York, in an address delivered March 14, 1944, before the section on Federal Practice of the New York Bar Association, reported in 3 Federal Rules Decisions, pages 380–392.

Hon. John Paul, United States district judge for the western district of Virginia, in a letter addressed to Congressman Eugene J. Keogh dated January 27, 1944, stresses the inadequacy of the 2-year sentence prescribed by existing law in cases where the object of the conspiracy is the commission of a very serious offense.

The punishment provision of said section 294 of title 18 was considered for inclusion in this revised section. It provided the same penalties for conspiracy to violate the provisions of certain counterfeiting laws, as are applicable in the case of conviction for the specific violations. Such a punishment would seem as desirable for all conspiracies as for such offenses as counterfeiting and transporting stolen property in interstate commerce.

A multiplicity of unnecessary enactments inevitably leads to confusion and disregard of law. (See reviser’s note under section 493 of this title.)

Since consolidation was highly desirable and because of the strong objections of prosecutors to the general application of the punishment provision of said section 294, the revised section represents the best compromise that could be devised between sharply conflicting views.

A number of special conspiracy provisions, relating to specific offenses, which were contained in various sections incorporated in this title, were omitted because adequately covered by this section. A few exceptions were made, (1) where the conspiracy would constitute the only offense, or (2) where the punishment provided in this section would not be commensurate with the gravity of the offense. Special conspiracy provisions were retained in sections 241, 286, 372, 757, 794, 956, 1201, 2271, 2384 and 2388 of this title. Special conspiracy provisions were added to sections 2153 and 2154 of this title.

Amendments
1994—Pub. L. 103–322 substituted “fined under this title” for “fined not more than $10,000”.

kattz

climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 04:26pm PT
Isn't this maximum sentence but not minimum?

If two or more persons in any State, Territory, Possession, or District conspire to prevent, by force, intimidation, or threat, any person from accepting or holding any office, trust, or place of confidence under the United States, or from discharging any duties thereof, or to induce by like means any officer of the United States to leave the place, where his duties as an officer are required to be performed, or to injure him in his person or property on account of his lawful discharge of the duties of his office, or while engaged in the lawful discharge thereof, or to injure his property so as to molest, interrupt, hinder, or impede him in the discharge of his official duties, each of such persons shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six years, or both.

(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 701; Pub. L. 107–273, div. B, title IV, § 4002(d)(1)(D), Nov. 2, 2002, 116 Stat. 1809.)

It talks about levied fine being a lower end punishment, for what they got now.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 29, 2016 - 04:26pm PT
There is very little outside work done at the refuge during mid-winter. Most of the work would be ongoing maintenance of the road systems,buildings, and water diversion dams and fish ladders. The Biologist is usually working on the data collected over the summer.

What did you go and do that for? I was enjoying watching these clowns get all lathered up about the lack of carp depredation work being done on a lake that has about 4" of ice on it. Ha.
couchmaster

climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 04:27pm PT

Fortunately, all you many Bundy lovers now have a place you can go to help out with Ammon Bundys bail money.

http://www.fundedjustice.com/en/projects/28054-Ammon-Bundy---Legal-Defense-Fund

Have at it! WOOT! (sorry, couldn't resist a gratuitous Woot there. Too bad no one has a "Get out of Jail free" card they can loan out here. But that's OK, roll that money right in there Bubbas! Even a single dollar will help.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 29, 2016 - 04:29pm PT
Yes, but you aren't getting that it a placeholder for other charges at this point. They each have officially been charged with only one count of conspiracy. Dozens of acts are listed in the charging document, and each could eventually be its own charge.


The current indictment is to hold them. The associated charge has to be a felony or they would be on the street.


It's not what you will see at trial.

As an aside, I was having pizza when the caravan went from jail to the courthouse. Back roads- mounted police and Motorcycle cops blocking intersections. Sort of like when a republican president visits town.
kattz

climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 04:32pm PT
"The current indictment is to hold them.

It's not what you will see at trial."

Yes. What I mean is that I expect them to bargain penalty for current charge down instead of adding anything, considering no action in his father's case, and overall kid gloves so far.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 29, 2016 - 04:37pm PT
Yes. What I mean is that I expect them to bargain penalty for current charge down instead of adding anything, considering no action in his father's case, and overall kid gloves so far.

They could bargain anywhere on the map. It could be they will show them 50 counts and give them the option of pleading guilty to lesser charges. This indictment isn't the maximum possible. It's as easily the minimum.

I think they found the kid gloves was a bad choice, given what has happened since.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 29, 2016 - 04:41pm PT
It occurs to me that once this is over, the most onerous charge could be for each count of disturbing Native American artifacts.

The Paiute tribe will surely file a complaint.
kattz

climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 04:41pm PT
Not convinced the feds really going to do much, yet, especially considering multiple loonies had been allowed to leave without arrest so far. Bundy and co. will plea no contest to current charge for sure, but afraid they'll get only some fine and guns confiscated.
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Kelly Morgan, Whitefish MT
Jan 29, 2016 - 04:42pm PT
They're counting on President Trump to pardon them.



Just read there will be no bail for the Bundy bros, don't know about the rest.
kattz

climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 04:45pm PT
"U.S. Magistrate Stacie Beckerman said she believed Bundy might attempt to occupy other federal property if she allowed him to be released on bail before his trial on charges of conspiracy...."

Yosemite??
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jan 29, 2016 - 04:48pm PT
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jan 29, 2016 - 04:48pm PT
I've been occupying the Camp IV bathroom since the New Bubba Revolution started. Um? Could someone let me out?
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 29, 2016 - 04:48pm PT
No bail for anybody until the holdout is over at least, said the judge. The government says they are OK with releasing the woman after the holdout under conditions, including she not enter any government building except for courthouse hearings, no firearms, and she leave Oregon except for court appearances.


Oregon doesn't use bail bondsmen. You pay 10% of the set bail and are liable for the rest. There are no bounty hunters, they"ll just own the Bundy ranch.

You get everything back but 15% of what you paid (court costs) if you show up at trial.
So a $10,000 bail costs $150
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 29, 2016 - 04:51pm PT
Just showed the shooting video on the evening news.





They can never hope to "fish out" the carp. They should be coming up with a tasty recipe instead.
Hell, anything dipped in batter and deep fried can sell.
kattz

climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 04:52pm PT
I hope they won't try Camp 4, the lady ranger in the kiosk will deal justice swiftly and brutally...they'll wish they met a bear instead.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jan 29, 2016 - 05:01pm PT
She's the one who locked me in. Send snacks.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 29, 2016 - 05:02pm PT
I've been occupying the Camp IV bathroom since the New Bubba Revolution started. Um? Could someone let me out?


A duck has been there for 30 years. He can't get out either.
kattz

climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 05:03pm PT
Here's the original criminal complaint against the 8:
http://community.statesmanjournal.com/data/bundy_case.pdf

Snitch Cooper (Hicks) is all over the photos in it, including armed...how they're gonna explain he's got no charges? huh, huh
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 05:16pm PT
For the record and for completeness sake and because the video at 18-19 sec mark is not crystal clear, I acknowledge the possibility agent behind vehicle in aforementioned discussion might have been caught unawares (e.g., inattentive, eyes off the ball, pants down in Barney Fife mode) and in the last instant left the vehicle for the safety of the snowbank not knowing precisely where the subject was (in his approaching vehicle).

The irony: this point - that is, the intention and posturing of the agent - was not my initial interest. The initial interest, there were two interests actually, were... (1) the description at CBS News this morning: "(Subject) nearly hits an FBI agent" and the inference that brings with it making no reference to the active movement of the agent; and (2) potential surprise of the subject (Finicum) at seeing agent on foot in his path and how that may have affected his running of the roadblock.

Here is another description: "Finicum nearly runs over a federal agent and crashes into a snow bank."

I just think it's worth noting at some point in the overarching analysis (a) that Finicum at the 18-19 second time interval of the aforementioned video didn't know (couldn't know) for sure that an agent on foot would move into his vehicle's path; and (b) that this agent's conduct might have surprised Finicum and ultimately altered vehicle's trajectory and Finicum's success.

.....

I don't kno Finicum, I haven't researched him, but I'd BET he wasn't evil.

Finicum...




Tarbuster...
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jan 29, 2016 - 05:16pm PT
Dirty Wernie got a duck for his birthday. He took it for walks every day
and enjoyed having a pet. One day, Sleezy Suzy saw him walking the duck,
and said, "Hey, I like your duck. Will you give it to me if we go into the
bushes and fool around?" Dirty Wernie agreed, and off they went. When they
finished, Dirty Wernie said, "Hey, if you'll give me my duck back, we can
do that again." So they fooled around in the bushes some more. Unfortu-
nately, about this time a big truck came barreling down the street. The
truck driver saw the duck in the road, and slammed on his brakes - but no
luck - he ran right over it. The driver told Dirty Wernie, "Hey kid, I'm
sorry about your duck. Here's two dollars to pay for it." Later, when Dirty
Wernie finally got home, his dad asked him how his day was. Dirty Wernie
said, "Not bad, Dad. I got a f*#k for a duck, a duck for a f*#k, and two bucks for a f*#ked-up duck."


He said if I keep telling this joke he's gunna pack my chute.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jan 29, 2016 - 05:20pm PT
Did you just vacillate after calling everyone stupid?
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 29, 2016 - 05:22pm PT
I just think it's worth noting at some point in the overarching analysis (a) that Finicum at the 18-19 second time interval of the aforementioned video didn't know (couldn't know) for sure that an agent on foot would move into his vehicle's path and (b) that this agent's conduct might have surprised him and ultimately altered vehicle's trajectory and Finicum's success.

Speaking of overreaching analysis...

Finicum was fleeing from a lawful LEO traffic stop, when the LEO's already had probable cause and warrants.

Everything that happened to him after him stepping on the gas is his own damn fault and a risk to LEO's which they will always strive to minimize. You don't get to chose outcomes after that.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 05:26pm PT
Did you just vacillate after calling everyone stupid?

No, only you in this instance for jumping to a conclusion - something half the population it seems is inclined to do.

.....

"Everything that happened to him after him stepping on the gas is his own damn fault..."

And Lorenzo, nobody here I don't think disagrees with your points.

.....

Event analysis and explanation does not mean excusing the behavior.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jan 29, 2016 - 05:33pm PT
Not Dave Katz
North LA Climber and FA master
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jan 29, 2016 - 05:34pm PT
Jumping to a hypothesis with a projected 12% accuracy, you mean?

You're a dummy.
kattz

climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 05:38pm PT
Regarding the Cooper's photos... with sentencing and adding other charges, it's going to get hard to explain to the public why multiple other participants had not been charged with anything....this is exactly why I think this is looking like slap on a wrist and not much more, so far. They might end up with 1 year probation, dangling very big fine or several years in prison.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 29, 2016 - 05:40pm PT
Regarding the Cooper's photos... in sentencing or adding other charges, it's going to get hard to explain to the public why multiple other participants had not been charged with anything....this is exactly why I think this is looking like slap on a wrist and not much more, so far.

Did you ever try using that argument with a speeding ticket? How did it turn out?
kattz

climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 05:40pm PT
Speeding ticket is not really a public matter unlike this case.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 05:43pm PT
So Flip Flop, I've had a few courses in college in Probability Science and Stochastic Systems and I got As in those courses.

How about you?

At least I acknowledged the possibility - even beginning on the previous pages via Barney Fife - that agent could've been re-gressing and opposed to pro-gressing. So there was no vacillating on my part, you pinhead.

Maybe at some point the truth will be clearer and we will all know the true posturing of the agent in the front of the vehicle.
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Jan 29, 2016 - 05:44pm PT
For Sale - Used Blue Plaid Wool Jacket - $50000
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jan 29, 2016 - 05:49pm PT
5-25 year sentences. They'll serve 1-6 years. Totally guessing. Confidence in estimates, less than 9%.

Still, considering the difference between 1/1125 and ordinary average 1/1 , I still say HFCS is a dummy.

I skipped grades. And college. I could present the statistical difference between you and I in ways that wouldn't threaten your fragile ego, but where's the fun in that?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 05:53pm PT
so I'm a dummy and you're a pinhead,
glad we got that worked out.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jan 29, 2016 - 05:54pm PT
Touché. Stupid is as stupid does and I can't rationally explain telemark skiing.
Rock!...oopsie.

Trad climber
the pitch above you
Jan 29, 2016 - 06:01pm PT
HFCS:
I don't kno Finicum, I haven't researched him, but I'd BET he wasn't evil.

But would you BET he wasn't blinded by an ignorant ideology?
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jan 29, 2016 - 06:02pm PT
Thank you Spicy Norman. Priceless.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 06:21pm PT
Rock! here's a very short clip from Sam Harris.

While the context of the conversation concerns fundamentalist religion and ISIS,
consider what he says re: bad people vis a vis bad ideas.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40jfWDPviHY

I thought it was pretty right on.

.....

EDIT for below...

jb, per usual, that's utterly ridiculous.

Faux outrage. Is it?
Nothing better going on?

Did I "microagress"?
Next time I'll be sure to
provide YOU a "trigger warning."

lol


And you would use his last name for what reason? lol

Grow up.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jan 29, 2016 - 06:40pm PT
Now this is being compared to Telemark Skiing.


The Fruitcake is ready and everyone here knew the cake was being baked.

You go for your ,ahem,pistol,when real guns are drawn and pointed at you,regardless of who is holding them,you are well....
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jan 29, 2016 - 06:40pm PT
If you want to live, don't try to run a roadblock with a loaded 9mm pistol in your jacket and then refuse to comply with an LEO. He did this on purpose. He wanted to get away or die. What the agent's intentions were is an irrelevant distraction.

Comparing him to Tarbuster is a total humor fail.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 06:43pm PT
It's outrageous, Stahlbro!
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jan 29, 2016 - 06:45pm PT
I don't want to celebrate someone's death, but Finicum was so radicalized it isn't hard to imagine him doing a Timothy McVeigh-style terrorist attack. I do feel sorry for his family.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 07:06pm PT
Yeah, that's it genius.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 07:16pm PT
Lame move... not too late to fix it. -Hocking

Give me the good argument Hocking and you got it.


You guys are stirring the pot. Admit it, you relish in it. What else is there in your evening. This evening. Right?



Fire up the outrage machine, I'm bored!!

.....

Ad ideam.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 07:23pm PT
The right guy is dead... -jb

and do you hear me defending this perp in any way?

btw, he was human, not a demon.
As far as I know, he didn't kill anybody or maim anybody?
Do I have that right?

Did he ever steal from anybody?


Still, let's demonize him.
It feels so good to do that!

Let's not even compare him to a human.
Was he human? Let's not even compare him to human.

How's that for a mindset? Is that what you want?


Remember, I said it before... Analysis or explanation of
an event does not translate into excusing the event.

Except in puerile minds.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 29, 2016 - 07:31pm PT
I don't kno Finicum, I haven't researched him, but I'd BET he wasn't evil.

They say Adolf Eichmann was one of the nicest guys you could ever meet.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 07:33pm PT
Alright, genius... Do you know if the agent was firing at the vehicle during those couple seconds? that 18-19 sec timeframe?
Who's got this answer?

.....


Forum participation is a study of human nature.

It is not a surprise we have dissension on all fronts in
American culture.
WBraun

climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 07:41pm PT
Forum participation is a study of human nature.

All while you hide as anonymous and use real credible people for your comparisons.

Such bullsh!t.

Take Tarbusters photo down NOW!!!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 07:44pm PT
That's utterly ridiculous/hilarious!

(EDIT: your second part, not the first. Re: the first: Of course it's justifed.)

No wonder there's so much crazy in the world!!!1


btw, I'm still waiting on Hocking's (worthy) argument.
If it's coming?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 07:46pm PT
In what sense, dude?

.....


Curious, did Finicum have a criminal record of any kind before this year?
If so, what were his crimes, I wonder. Anyone know.

I mean, if were going to demonize him thoroughly,
we ought to know all the facts.



As far as his picture goes, I think he's a fairly handsome sort.
Real Marboro looking. Probably of the cut that pulled more than their weight to shape the West 100 years ago. No?
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jan 29, 2016 - 07:51pm PT
Jim, I think HFFCS is occupying this thread similar to the Bundy et al occupation of the MNWR. Same mentality. Who is LaVoy in this thread?
kattz

climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 07:56pm PT
Whatever criminal record Finicum had (probably none), sure can't beat 15 prior felony arrests ascribed to Cooper :/
kattz

climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 07:57pm PT
Don't see them taking the kid gloves off... the refuge is still occupied. If I occupied something I'd be arrested/tasered/shot on the spot, pretty sure. Bundy's gonna ride out his privilege this time too.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 07:57pm PT
Here, got one for you JB.

Listen to this podcast of a couple weeks ago. It speaks to different perspectives and the value of de-escalation - both in the anti-fed case and in poltics (e.g., international politics).

Dan Carlin - Common Sense
Common Sense 300

http://www.dancarlin.com/common-sense-home-landing-page/

Can you stand more than one perspective on an issue?

Starts around 57 minutes or so.

re: the positive value of restraint
aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Jan 29, 2016 - 08:34pm PT
After seeing the FBI footage of the incident where the rancher was killed, I find it a bit troubling. I was not there, but from what I could see you have a older man without a criminal record floundering the snow, going into a bit of panic, afraid of being shot. He is surrounded by FBI personnel who most likely had both protective gear, and higher caliber guns.

In fairness to the FBI, I have also heard that he was wearing a pistol, and that his hands went in the direction of his pockets, and so they fired. Very sad, my condolences to his wife, children, and grand children.

rincon

climber
Coarsegold
Jan 29, 2016 - 08:44pm PT
They're live on youtube again. Apparently they are prepared to die.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76elOS7LAaI
[Click to View YouTube Video]
kattz

climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 08:51pm PT
I see they'd evolved from trailer park kitsch to Black Square...not bad. "Malevich of American cinema"...misunderstood alternative souls.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 29, 2016 - 09:17pm PT
So.... they're all surrounded and stuff in the middle of absolutely nowhere but yet still updating Facebook and "streaming video".

The guy that can't stop talking, yammering on nonstop about going out with a bang. I'll put $$$ on him being a Fed.

Joining local 'militias' is always the best way to meet local and federal agents. Always has been.
MisterE

Gym climber
Small Town with a Big Back Yard
Jan 29, 2016 - 09:20pm PT
At a quick glance to this thread (which is all I will allow myself), Jim Brennan lost me at "of coarse"
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 29, 2016 - 09:24pm PT
I looked at some of the reviews for Mr. Fincum's book on Amazon.

He wrote about a quick draw of his character's pistol, killing three people in a sudden shootout, and more.

Jan 28, 2016 - 10:09am PT from Lorezo
Levoy Finicum, the guy that was killed, had a book out on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Only-Blood-Suffering-LAVOY-FINICUM/dp/193773594X

Here's a piece of what he wrote:

and more from Amazon reviews:

Those of you familiar with the high desert of the Four Corners region know what kind of a rugged landscape is, and it's winter and snowing to boot - but no worries, these kids are H.E.A.L.T.H.Y. and can handle it all. Plus, any dangerous peeps about and they're loaded to the hilt with firearms, just like Dad (with a capital D) taught them. Oh, and since Dad (with a capital D) was wise and believed in an old prophecy by one of the Mormon gurus, he's been stocking up on food for years and even stashing it in super-secret places all over all the back roads leading to the ranch for the kids to find it on their way through the dangerous high country. And they actually found those caches, despite the heavy snow. For realz.

SPOILERS AHEAD: after the kids get to the ranch and everyone's safe (except Dad's wife who didn't believe in carrying guns, so the baddies knocked her off in the first chapter), there's all kinds of kerfuffles in the community over them having lots of food stashed away and it should be shared with everyone else who wasn't smart enough to stash away. That all leads to a big stand off and our 'hero' packs up his guns and thus ensues some big shoot-em-up. Why he would fire on his neighbors and not negotiate? Dunno, but even worse afterwards our 'hero' is judge, jury and executioner over a female government employee that he resented over the whole thing and ----------->>>>real spoiler---->>>he strung her up on his rope and (sic) hung her.

Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 30, 2016 - 01:05am PT
New resort listing on Airbnb

Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 30, 2016 - 04:54am PT
It really is a shame all this mishegas took away focus from the absolute railroading of the Hammonds and the long history of similar treatment of the (previous) landowners around them. These retards gave .Gov a great distraction.

Its a pretty deviously simple protocol. Go after one land owner at a time, then you don't kick the hornets nest and anyone supporting the (one) landowner are viewed as radicals. And if you already 'own' the land, just systematically turn it into wilderness that reduces your overhead but not your budget.

Combine that with shuffle your feet and gaze at your belly button on a few other issues, hold some perfunctory public review sessions and voila!

The BLM and Forest Service sure has come a long way from just managing lands that no one wanted to Homestead.

Have to give credit where credit is due, our elected officials and their appointees have taken the march to statism and made it into artform.

Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 30, 2016 - 06:49am PT
As you were saying...

The FS person in this video is outright bragging about taking property (scamming him) from a WWII vet at well under market value to enlarge the Mojave refuge and deny the possibility of he or anyone else mining on it (legally) in the future.

https://www.facebook.com/GoldRushExpedinc/videos/10153198157275940/
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 30, 2016 - 07:00am PT
Regarding the last two posters. I am sure there are significnt issues for land users vs the government. Certainly that has been true for climbers at times.

What they need is organization..not militia but smart lawyers. Ie an access fund.
franky

Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
Jan 30, 2016 - 07:00am PT
Dave, i must be missing something. She said it was appraised at 2.5 million and they sold it to her. Where is the controversy?
franky

Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
Jan 30, 2016 - 07:09am PT
Also, seems to me like that the Hammonds quite possibly earned their five years, despite how stupid conservative supported mandatory minimum sentencing is.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 30, 2016 - 08:42am PT
Or they could write a sternly worded letter to their senators.
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Jan 30, 2016 - 08:58am PT
To cover up illegal poaching, Hammonds started one range fire. That fire endangered people who were hunting legally and destroyed their camp.

The Hammonds started a second fore during a burn ban, when they knew that firefigters were camped upslope on the butte.

http://landrights.org/or/Hammond/FINAL-Decision-Hammond_Redacted.pdf

F*#k the Hammonds. They are not good men, they repeatedly violated the law, and they were tried and convicted by a jury of their peers in Pendleton — not in Portland or Salem or even in Bend.

If you don't like mandatory sentencing laws, great. Neither do I. But the Hammonds are the last people I'd use as poster children for that sentiment.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 30, 2016 - 09:54am PT
And I hear tell that the branch Davidians were child molesters too.

You are going to take the word of a supposed hunting guide that couldn't tell the difference between elk or deer? Good grief no wonder you people are so easily wooed by .Gov.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 30, 2016 - 10:26am PT
Yep, them juries sure are stupid, aren't they Escopeta?

And speaking of gullibility, how did that tank thing work out for you?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 30, 2016 - 10:33am PT
Monolith, the tanks are in tunnels beneath Burns.

Wake up dude.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 30, 2016 - 10:34am PT
connected by Walmarts
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 30, 2016 - 10:39am PT
And I hear tell that the branch Davidians were child molesters too.

You are going to take the word of a supposed hunting guide that couldn't tell the difference between elk or deer? Good grief no wonder you people are so easily wooed by .Gov.

Doesn't always work, but I'm more inclined to accept the outcome of a jury trial as being factually correct.

As for the sentence, I don't agree with mandatory minimums, although setting a fire that deliberately endangers people used to be a hanging offense, and 5 years might just be pretty low.

But it is the GOP-types that want the mandatories, saying "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime"
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2016 - 10:52am PT
But it is the GOP-types that want the mandatories, saying "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime"

It is really unfair to throw that in their face. It is a well known fact that the GOP did not intend mandatories to be used against middle aged privileged white males
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 30, 2016 - 11:26am PT

And speaking of gullibility, how did that tank thing work out for you?

I worked out well actually. No one took me up on the bet. I guess everyone wasn't quite so sure they wouldn't use them after all.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 30, 2016 - 12:16pm PT
LOL, because no one wanted to play your juvenile game.

You were so eager to believe tanks were being brought in that you wanted to bet on it, but viewed the possiblity of the Hammonds taking 2 or 3 weeks to cross the refuge with their cattle was a fairy tale.
overwatch

climber
Jan 30, 2016 - 12:40pm PT
At least you like Black Flag
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Jan 30, 2016 - 01:18pm PT
Doesn't always work, but I'm more inclined to accept the outcome of a jury trial as being factually correct.


I've testified in about 100 jury trials and my clients don't always win but I have a great respect for juries and the legal system. They usually get it right. Sometimes they get it so right it amazes me.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 30, 2016 - 01:41pm PT
You should have taken the bet. I guess you weren't so sure either. Ha.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 30, 2016 - 02:52pm PT
I don't play child games. Haha.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 30, 2016 - 04:18pm PT
To cover up illegal poaching, Hammonds started one range fire. That fire endangered people who were hunting legally and destroyed their camp.

I wonder why they weren't charged with poaching?
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 30, 2016 - 04:38pm PT
father of the inbreds, and probably inbred himself, speaks:
http://www.kptv.com/story/31076598/cliven-bundy-vows-fight-in-oregon-not-over
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 30, 2016 - 04:42pm PT
I wonder why

There was a cover up?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 30, 2016 - 05:14pm PT
I wonder why they weren't charged with poaching?


Because there was a fire, didn't you hear?

Which destroyed the evidence, as intended......
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 30, 2016 - 05:43pm PT
I was only kidding about this having 2000 post potential back around 1,000....

Now maybe not....
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2016 - 05:56pm PT
I see potential for at least 2500 posts once the trials begin. Santilli Lace will cop a plea, but the Bundys are far too smart for that. They will fight to the end cuz a plead deal will require them to take responsibility for their poor choices in life.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jan 30, 2016 - 06:00pm PT
The defense fund donations will roll into the political donations. Ammon is the next Nelson Mandela. Let My People Go. ( kidding. Don't.)
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 30, 2016 - 06:29pm PT
From The Oregonian Newspaper today:

Craigslist trolls Ammon Bundy and his favorite jacket
http://www.oregonlive.com/geek/2016/01/this_ammon_bundy_craigslist_ad.html

A pretty funny article:

Now, someone is pretend-selling the occupier's favorite blue plaid wool jacket on Craigslist for $50,000.

Condition: Fair.

Manufacturer: 2nd Amendment Clothing.

Here's the ad. It pretty much sums up the ubiquitous garment's 25-day adventure at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge near Burns:

Slightly Used Blue Plaid Wool Jacket. Worn 24 hrs. / day for the last 26 days to weather it out in Burns Or. Due to a sudden lifestyle change, I've decided to only wear orange jumpsuits.

A couple of snags from barbed wire. Some odors of sweat, beef jerky, gun oil, personal lubricant and sedition. Includes one pocket copy of the U.S. Constitution.

Careful wearing this in any western-themed gay bars, because this unit is HOT!!!

Will consider trade for 200 cartons of cigarettes or some snacks.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 30, 2016 - 07:23pm PT

Because there was a fire, didn't you hear?

Which destroyed the evidence, as intended......

Destroyed the evidence? Good lord. Have any of you people ever seen a wildfire, much less one on a grassland prairie?

If deer or elk were poached, the fire would burn right past them, scorch their hair and then you could walk in and find out exactly what killed the animal. Its actually that easy. But don't take my word for it, let the impartial land managers around Malheur Refuge tell you. <eyeroll>

You guys have been hitting the kool aid too hard. You should cut back.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Jan 30, 2016 - 07:23pm PT

Nature
Don't forget the black helicopters!!!!
They've gotta be around too!!!!


hee hee hee. . .
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 30, 2016 - 07:31pm PT
Have any of you kool-aid heads with your doo-rags ever seen a ghetto fire?

Burns right past all the kuhns (sorry Thomas- can you even say that here?) without even melting the oil in the Jheri curls.

monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 30, 2016 - 07:33pm PT
Er, um Escopeta, the investigation into the Hammonds started quite a few years after the 2001 fire.

Poaching evidence long gone.

You seem quite ignorant of the basic facts in this case. Perhaps it is you who should put down the koolaid.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 30, 2016 - 07:42pm PT
Well, if the evidence was long gone.

And the investigation didn't happen for several years after the supposed poaching.

And the big game outfitter that made the claim can't decide if it was elk or deer that was "poached".

Then exactly how credible is this claim? Yet you bring it up to throw shade on the Hammonds?

Like I said, you probably think the Branch Davidians were pederasts and Randy Weaver was a skin head.

As a side note if you find yourself with a big game guide that doesn't know the difference between an elk or a deer, you might want to ask for your money back.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 30, 2016 - 07:46pm PT
Not credible enough to make charges since there would only be hearsay.

The Hammonds admitted they started the fires and the jury convicted them.

You made up that story you keep repeating of the guide who didn't know the difference between an elk and a deer. Put up or shut up.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 30, 2016 - 07:54pm PT
Not credible enough to make charges. Yet you hold it out as supporting evidence that the Hammonds are obviously bad people.

Okaaay. If you say so. Slurp.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 30, 2016 - 08:00pm PT
So are you going to give us a link about the guide who doesn't know the difference between elk or deer?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 30, 2016 - 08:01pm PT
You made up that story you keep repeating of the guide who didn't know the difference between an elk and a deer. Put up or shut up.

You're the one beating your chest about how familiar you are with the case, not me.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 30, 2016 - 08:01pm PT
I couln't find anything supporting your story.

Perhaps you could enlighten us?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 30, 2016 - 08:08pm PT
Funny thing. I couldn't find anything supporting yours either. As you clearly stated, its all hearsay.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 30, 2016 - 08:09pm PT
Haha, I knew you would weasel out.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 30, 2016 - 08:10pm PT
Have another swig....

EDIT: if you can't wrap your head around the irony of asking for evidence regarding something you've already admitted was made up in the first place, then I think I understand why you believe everything you hear.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 30, 2016 - 08:24pm PT
I say you made it up the story about the guide, because I could not find any evidence for it.

Are you still not going to give us any links to support your wild-ass claim about the guide?

Edit: Gotta hit the road now. I'll check in tomorrow to see what you've scrounged up about the guide who didn't know the difference between an elk or a deer.
kattz

climber
Jan 30, 2016 - 10:01pm PT
The state of Oregon seems to be a lot less fascist than the state of California....Hope it stays this way.
overwatch

climber
Jan 30, 2016 - 10:16pm PT
Don't hold your breath, Monolith
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 30, 2016 - 10:22pm PT
monolith

climber
state of being

Jan 30, 2016 - 08:24pm PT
I say you made it up the story about the guide, because I could not find any evidence for it.

I say somebody's internet search skills are pretty poor if they couldn't find the notice of denial of grazing rights to the Hammonds for their felony convictions.
Gordon Choate was the Guides name. He said they were deer.

Page 6:

http://wildfiretoday.com/documents/Hammond_grazing_decision.pdf
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 31, 2016 - 12:48am PT
My bad.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 31, 2016 - 12:54am PT
In an interesting development, Shawna Cox was released by court order.

http://www.mcso.us/PAID/Home/Booking/1362480/1350916
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 31, 2016 - 12:55am PT
It's, BENGHAZI!!!

Jesus' bad?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 31, 2016 - 05:09am PT
I wonder why the Hammonds were never charged with poaching? Was this guide or other witnesses not considered reliable?

They are never charged with that crime, which in my view is far worse than burning 140 acres of scrub, yet it gets repeatedly brought up in the trial (though thrown out), its brought up in the grazing docs, and its even brought up in some propaganda letter peneed by the acting US Attny (the previous one having been fired for inappropriate sexting messages to her colleagues).

Did this hunting guide ever call in the poaching? Did it ever get investigated? Did that hunting guide (who admitted was on the border between Hammond land and public have an issue with the Hammonds? Maybe the wildlife preferred to stay on private property, the guide was butt hurt over his lack of opportunities since the Hammonds didn't give him acces?

Hmmm, I wonder... Let's just make stuff up so that this claim of arson sticks better.

The Hammonds were convicted of a crime by a jury using a statue that had previously been dressed up for use in Terrorists cases. And they used years old witness accounts of poaching to try and trump up the claim they burned the property on purpose.

Get a map, chart out the land owned by the Hammonds and the surrounding property owner/s. Come to your own conclusion, I already have. And it has nothing to do with the retards that took over the duck ponds.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 31, 2016 - 06:04am PT
WTF are you talking about Lorenzo?

That summary had nothing to do with proving the guide didn't know the difference between an elk or a deer.

Seriously, Lorenzo, you've got a reading comprehension problem.

Escopeta, are you still claiming the guide didn't know the difference between an elk and a deer?

During the jury deliberations, the Hammonds negotiated a deal where all the other charges were dropped and that the prosecuter would recommend the minimum sentence for arson on federal land. Sucks for you, but that's the way our system works.
franky

Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
Jan 31, 2016 - 06:30am PT
Here you go. My analysis of the evidence available on the internet suggests 5 years is possibly reasonable it could be more or less than I would suggest if i had seen the trial, but not having seen the trial I won't jump to any conclusions.

http://wildfiretoday.com/2016/01/05/the-timeline-for-the-oregon-rancher-arsonists/

Is your last post implying there is some land grab going on? Find one example of a federal agency acquiring a significant chunk of western private land by a means other than paying a willing seller a fair market price, or a consensual land swap. I bet you can't.

Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 31, 2016 - 07:15am PT
Is your last post implying there is some land grab going on? Find one example of a federal agency acquiring a significant chunk of western private land by a means other than paying a willing seller a fair market price, or a consensual land swap. I bet you can't.

I'm not implying anything. I'm flatly stating that I have absolutely no doubt that there was/is a land grab going on.

In order to accept your challenge, we would need MUCH further definition on the term "willing seller".

Because if you mean a willing seller, that has been harassed, cajoled, threatened, gone broke trying to defend spurious claims by a government with unlimited legal resources and funds and otherwise forced to sell, then by all means you're correct.
jonnyrig

climber
Jan 31, 2016 - 07:31am PT
http://www.npr.org/2016/01/31/465000760/the-federal-response-to-oregon-occupation-may-have-roots-in-ruby-ridge


You know, I never did much follow a lot of these situations. I do, however, see a number of problems with the way law enforcement and our criminal justice systems work in this country.

First of all, it's not about justice. It's simply about having the opportunity to fight for your freedom in court. The basic premise is that the two parties arguing out the case in court will illuminate the truth. Problem is, that system works heavily in favor of the party with bigger pockets, be it the government or the individual whom the government is prosecuting.

Secondly, when it comes to law enforcement, they are often heavy-handed. No? Well, how many people just on this forum have bitched about being tooled? We put a lot of power into the hands of individuals, quite often without oversight and accountability. Sometimes it goes to their heads. Sometimes they make mistakes, which people are prone to make. In both cases, the system is biased toward law enforcement. Did you know over ninety percent of cases get plea-bargained?
https://www.bja.gov/Publications/PleaBargainingResearchSummary.pdf
How many of those cases do you think could be innocent, and either don't have the resources to fight, or are scared of the consequence of losing? Read the paper... those who fight and lose often receive harsher penalties than those who plea-bargain out. That's f*#ked.

And third, the public generally assumes guilt of all those who are arrested. Take the Hammonds, for instance. Many of you are guilty of simply assuming they are actually guilty of poaching. Seriously, with all the data on the unreliability of eye-witness accounts, the long passage of time since their alleged crime took place, and the questionable state of the witness... THIS is the part you assume to be true? This alone speaks volumes about the state of the public mindset when it comes to criminal law and justice.

Just as a final note, I'd like to take issue with the militias and their choice of activism. They keep picking losers and issues where the evidence is against them. WTF is wrong with them? Pick a worthy cause to stand up for. Maybe an unarmed black kid who got shot by the police in some truly heinous act of aggression, perhaps? Or don't you believe in justice? Maybe stand up for true freedom of speech or freedom of religion? You know, don't cover up the signs of the protesters who think you're full of sh#t?

No, instead they keep touting guns, cows, and Christian faith. They keep picking people who have already lost the fight in court. And they pick the wrong way of going about it. Instead of supporting better defense by way of exposing injustices through legal means, they take over a f*#king federal building (thus committing federal crimes in the process) and then essentially BRAG about it on public media. Seriously? Can you say "stupid"? (hint: it's two syllables)

Now, even having VIEWED video evidence of the take-down of Finecum, the Pacific Patriots Network has issued a "call to action" to protest events. Tell me, do you think they'd support my freedom of speech to call them out on being incapable of interpreting the video?

http://www.pacificpatriotsnetwork.com/

OFFICIAL CALL TO ACTION

Update: January 29, 2016

In light of the events that have taken place in Harney County, Oregon over the last two days, the official Pacific Patriots Network statement is as follows:

PPN condemns the violent action taken by the Harney County Sheriff's Department along with the FBI in the shooting death of Mr. Lavoy Finicum.

PPN condemns the violent action taken by the Harney County Sheriff's Department along with the FBI in the execution of arrests associated with the people at the Malhuer National Wildlife Refuge occupation.

PPN condemns the DISHONEST tactics used to arrest Jason Patrick on January 28th. Mr. Patrick's safety, well being and emotional state were compromised when the FBI lied not only to Mr. Patrick but to PPN representatives trying to assist with the PEACEFUL removal of people at the MNWR. The FBI stated to Mr. Patrick and the PPN that he was “free to go.” Mr. Patrick walked 7 miles in sub freezing temperatures only to be arrested at the checkpoint north of the Narrows.

PPN condemns the false statements given to the public by the FBI, Harney County Sheriff's Department and the Harney County officials.

IN RESPONSE TO THESE EVENTS, PACIFIC PATRIOTS NETWORK

IS ISSUING A

CALL TO ACTION

Calling on any and all Americans to come to Burns, Oregon to come to the aid of the American people standing against these violent, malicious and deceitful tactics. Come stand together with other Americans, and express our Constitutional right to PEACEFULLY assemble and air our grievances.

This operation will demand the following:

 Immediate detention by Oregon State Police of the FBI special agent in charge along with all agents and LEO involved in the shooting death of Lavoy Finicum. A first hand eyewitness account presents reasonable cause for arrest while the investigation takes place.

 Immediate removal of all militarized FBI personnel and equipment from Harney County. All State and County Law Enforcement officers are not included and requested to stay and assist in the process to keep the peace.

 Immediate resignation of Judge Steve Grasty, Sheriff David Ward, County commissioner Pete Runnels, and County commissioner Dan Nichols.

In order to successfully accomplish our mission, we will need any and all Americans to PEACEFULLY assemble within Burns, Oregon immediately. The success of this mission depends fully on the number of people that will come to PEACEFULLY stand and demand the items above be initiated.

A letter of intent will be legally served on the FBI special agent in charge at the time of Lavoy Finicum's death, Judge Steven Grasty, Sheriff David Ward, Dan Nichols and Pete Runnels by January 29th, 2016. We will request to escort the FBI presence out of Harney County, Oregon and once complete, the attention will return to the resignation of the County elected officials.

PPN is dedicated to a PEACEFUL operation. If you have any ill intent, please do not come. We do not need you. Please come prepared with civilian attire and adhere to the policy of no long guns within the community.

Please come self sufficient and able to care for yourself for the time you plan to stay. Donations arrive daily but they are not sustainable for a large or lengthy contingency.

We ask that you email us at volunteer@pacificpatriotsnetwork.comg if and when you are planning to come and stand in Burns, Oregon
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 31, 2016 - 07:56am PT
"I try not to think about them at all," Roderick says. "I mean, all they had to do was show up at court. Very simply, that's all they had to do. I think again more about Bill Degan and his family, his two boys, his widow. You know, his mom and dad. That's who I think about."

SMH And all they needed to do was receive a summons that had the right date on it.

"They were apocalyptic Christians who believed the world was about to end. And they began practicing a form of religion called Christian identity, which is the religion of skinheads and white supremacists."

And yet, they weren't White Supremacists, or Skinheads. Funny how that isn't mentioned. Kind of like implying that the Hammonds are poachers. No proof but as long as it throws shade on them, its all good.


He sold two sawed-off shotguns to a man he met at that gathering, but that man turned out to be a federal informant. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms planned to use the illegal weapons sale to recruit Weaver as an informant, as well.

Forgetting for a moment the pure insanity of a weapon being illegal because it was 3/8ths of an inch too short of some adventitious rule, was there any proof that the weapon he sold was, in fact, too short or was it altered after purchase? I guess we'll never know will we?

Like I said before, no wonder you people are so gullible.
jonnyrig

climber
Jan 31, 2016 - 08:09am PT
Oh, gee... did I make a funny?
jonnyrig

climber
Jan 31, 2016 - 08:12am PT
I guess assumption is the mother of all....

Oh, f*#k you guys then. Time for me to go play in the snow on the freeway. L8r.
jonnyrig

climber
Jan 31, 2016 - 08:13am PT
What did I just do? I read some of y'all's posts. My bad.
franky

Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
Jan 31, 2016 - 08:39am PT
Willing seller means they in some way stated they were interested in selling their land, received an offer, and accepted it.

Based on your comments, I'll even let you find an example where the federal government directly interfered with the way a private owner ran their private land that caused them to want to sell. I bet you won't find that either.
dirtbag

climber
Jan 31, 2016 - 08:58am PT
Well they have their martyr. Good for them. Act 1 is over; it looks like there will be more, bloodier acts to follow.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/rolling-rally-in-oregon-marks-killing-of-wildlife-refuge-occupier-lavoy-finicum/2016/01/30/35f53678-c7cc-11e5-a4aa-f25866ba0dc6_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-more-top-stories_oregonrally-105am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 31, 2016 - 09:12am PT
Hey Jonnyrig! I think you write very well. After re-reading what DMT finds so humorous, I still can't understand what's so funny about it.

Keep writing dude!

I did find a simple essay on public lands this morning in the Idaho state Journal. http://www.pocatelloshops.com/new_blogs/politics/?p=15630#more-15630

The author sums it up with this statement.

Sixty-two percent of Idaho remains U.S. public land. Unlike back East, down South, or the Plains states, we don’t have to beg big landowners if we want to explore the land, to ride, fish, hunt, hike, camp or climb. A growing number of power brokers just hate that average folks still have this kind of freedom. Bundy and the Koch Brothers have their heads screwed on backwards and guns pointed in the wrong direction.

My 75 year old brother is a proud & fat Idaho redneck. However, during the Sagebrush Rebellion talk of the 1980's he quickly figured out that those who wanted the Feds to turn over OUR public lands to state control, intended to then have most of those lands pass into private hands. He realized his hunting, fishing, & 4-WD access would likely end. He fervently fought for OUR continued ownership of OUR public lands under the management of the BLM & Forest Service.

I am encouraged to see some hunting organizations like Backcountry Hunters & Anglers, a sportsmen’s group based in Joseph, Oregon protesting the CowQuida land grab. http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/hunters-tear-down-militants-sign-at-malheur-refuge/
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 31, 2016 - 09:51am PT
we don’t have to beg big landowners if we want to explore the land, to ride, fish, hunt, hike, camp or climb.


Um....hmm.....ah, as it turns out, yes we do. It just happens to be a landowner you prefer.....today.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 31, 2016 - 10:02am PT
Hey Jonnyrig! I think you write very well. After re-reading what DMT finds so humorous, I still can't understand what's so funny about it.

He is accusing us all of GUILT, in the middle of a rant about assuming GUILT when one is convicted by a jury.

That is pretty funny, the the kettle calling the pot black.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 31, 2016 - 10:03am PT
Um....hmm.....ah, as it turns out, yes we do. It just happens to be a landowner you prefer.....today.

perhaps you could give an example. Otherwise, you appear to be simply a bag of hot air.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 31, 2016 - 10:17am PT
You want me to give you examples of the government restricting access to "public" lands? Lol
franky

Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
Jan 31, 2016 - 10:19am PT
Private land owners in South Dakota will charge hundreds or even thousands of dollars a day to let people pheasant hunt on their land. Even those private land-owners who have registered with the state to become walk-ins (for which they are paid with government money) have restrictions that are many times more onerous than what the USFS, BLM, or even the state of South Dakota require.

For example, walk-ins universally don't allow any OHV use or camping and sometimes have rules restricting seasons or methods of take beyond state regulation. They don't even allow hunters to drive on their roads. They also don't allow any other land use outside of hunting. They are also usually grazed low enough that you couldn't hide an Easter egg in 100 acres.

State of South Dakota land is the most restrictive of government land by far, again not allowing any OHV use or camping.

Then there is the USFS, which allows OHV use off roads in the Black Hills National Forest and surrounding Grasslands, allows dispersed camping, doesn't require leashes on dogs, allows target shooting, etc.

I can't understand how any outdoorsman would prefer private land ownership to government ownership unless said outdoorsman is rich. Not just rich either, but you'd have to be filthy, stinking rich to have outdoor opportunities on private land that could truly compare to public.
kattz

climber
Jan 31, 2016 - 10:50am PT
I'm afraid that if a real Communist or other totalitarian government came to power, most of the US population would stay silent and not issue much of an objection, unfortunately, at this point in history. A lot of people wouldn't even realize they're in totalitarian state, as soon as bread and circuses are still there.
kattz

climber
Jan 31, 2016 - 11:07am PT
"Then there is the USFS, which allows OHV use off roads in the Black Hills National Forest and surrounding Grasslands, allows dispersed camping, doesn't require leashes on dogs, allows target shooting, etc.

I can't understand how any outdoorsman would prefer private land ownership to government ownership unless said outdoorsman is rich."

Exactly. Just look at SF Bay area atrocious land use situation... enough said. Eventually, as population increases, all land will become more crowded and valuable. USFS and BLM are the last pockets of freedom, unless you own a very large parcel yourself. They have to have SOME restrictions, to avoid the land being trashed and turning into a giant trailer park. The Malheur occupiers who're not rich ranchers are just Joe "why can't I shoot petards in the dry forest any time I'm drunk?"
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 31, 2016 - 12:45pm PT
As the occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge enters its 30th day, it appears the FBI may be locking down lines of communication.

OPB spoke with the remaining occupiers inside the refuge Sunday by cellphone. They say federal authorities have locked down their ability to make or receive calls.

David Fry, one of the four remaining militants, said the FBI made it so the occupiers can’t make outgoing calls on their cellphones. Fry said he can receive incoming calls, but that the other three in the refuge appear unable to receive calls on their cellphones. The militants also said they’ve lost access to the internet.

The militants said they aren’t currently inside any of the buildings at the refuge and they’ve been using a generator so they aren’t sure if the FBI also cut power to the buildings.

Sean Anderson, another of the remaining militants inside the refuge, expressed frustration with the FBI’s barricade that is preventing media from getting into the refuge.

Repeated calls to the refuge’s landline Sunday morning resulted in a busy signal.
http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/fbi-blocking-lines-of-communication-militants-say/

Oh man, how cruel can those Feds be? No internet! No access to the Media?

More importantly, it reads like their supply of dildos & lubricant has likely been cut too, along with their requested French Vanilla creamer, fresh vegetables, cigarettes, & chew.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2016 - 12:49pm PT
Hitler reacts to news of Lavoy Finicums death

[Click to View YouTube Video]
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 31, 2016 - 01:27pm PT
Escopeta has a point about govt limiting access to certain places. Think back country or Half Dome permits as one small example.

On the other hand, my family was run off clearly marked BLM land by a rancher, because he paid grazing fees there, he treated it as his own. Quite common in NM. All things considered, I prefer the govt.
kattz

climber
Jan 31, 2016 - 02:57pm PT
Revolution without guns, dildos and massive amount of doughnuts eaten. I think these guys didn't have their vanilla creamer demands met:

[Click to View YouTube Video]
franky

Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
Jan 31, 2016 - 04:52pm PT
Escopeta has a point about govt limiting access to certain places. Think back country or Half Dome permits as one small example.

On the other hand, my family was run off clearly marked BLM land by a rancher, because he paid grazing fees there, he treated it as his own. Quite common in NM. All things considered, I prefer the govt.

I wouldn't call that a point since he is comparing the feds to other land owners.

Unless you own it yourself, the feds are the least restrictive land owner there is. Obviously there are limits on certain public uses that some people disagree with, but all those limits have to be justified in some way. I don't want to speculate about what Half Dome would be like if it were privately owned.
kattz

climber
Jan 31, 2016 - 05:18pm PT
Regarding Half Dome permits....since everyone in Bay area or visiting from Europe seems to have a checkbox in their personal achievement list that they must "ascend Half Dome"...and from very tight lines on cables, with someone occasionally dropping down (with domino effect potential)...if entire uncontrolled horde of tourists headed to Half Dome at once, during certain summer times...would be no good for anyone. (I'm sure some'd be suing the Park for wrongful death, eventually!) There's a notorious private mountain on Central California coast (forgot it's name), where the owner put no trespassing signs all over and was patrolling the mountain all day in search of hikers (there were some easement disputes)...this is what private Half Dome would be like...with some overseas billionaire house on top of it, where they'd get using a helicopter.
WBraun

climber
Jan 31, 2016 - 05:26pm PT
Such bullsh!t ^^^^

You people are insane .....
kattz

climber
Jan 31, 2016 - 06:56pm PT
Oh, by the way, where I grew up (outside the US) one could easily:

1) be attacked, tortured, killed, etc by a gang of thugs once go hiking in the woods, mostly public land...that's because the government didn't give rat's tail about what's going on out out there. Considering you couldn't carry gun in most cases, you had to know how to use an axe, knife and other handy items. Broken bottle was a weapon of choice, as I recall. Like one against five, or against their hunting rifle. Full freedom!

2) find garbage, trash anywhere

3) massive poaching and illegal tree cutting. If you complain, you'd get killed. (could happen to rangers themselves) May be have animal liver or guts nailed to your house door first, for a warning, though. Or, get your house burned (no, no cruel mandatory sentences for arson!--most arsons went unpunished). Whole villages burned sometimes (with whoever didn't have time to get away). Those winds can be really fast. Full on freedom from the government!

Did I mention your rescue being your sole responsibility? Or lone drivers taken from empty forest roads by the gangs?

US public lands are super safe (even with all the growers, who mostly mind own business) and I hope they stay this way, they must be doing something right at this point. Not everywhere, not in every instance, of course, but overall. This is afforded by strong government action plus 2nd amendment protection, and not by everyone being beneficial and kind, free and peace-loving! The overpopulation + open border policy is the sole cause of all extra-strong restrictions (like ones for Half Dome) that are in place: it'll only get worse if population continues to increase.
jonnyrig

climber
Jan 31, 2016 - 07:22pm PT
it'll only get worse if population continues to increase.

Ain't that the truth. Quick... get neutered now!

Better yet, make neutering mandatory with prison sentences.


He is accusing us all of GUILT, in the middle of a rant about assuming GUILT when one is convicted by a jury

I'm trying the Trump approach. It gets people's attention. Sucker.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 31, 2016 - 07:27pm PT
My god, if someone that didn't even grow up here is carrying water for .gov, we are doomed.
kattz

climber
Jan 31, 2016 - 07:28pm PT
No need to neuter yourself, I thought humans could control their urges without being surgically altered, unlike animals. Contraception is available and cheap, and there's voting mechanism in place to influence policies. (оr, one day, there'll be a thread about occupying public lands on Mars)
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 31, 2016 - 07:52pm PT
escopeta! Re your post:

My god, if someone that didn't even grow up here is carrying water for .gov, we are doomed.


All is not lost! Movement to bastions of anti-government domination like the Sudan, are still open for you. Otherwise, your desire to escape .gov, in something other than a 3rd world shithole, could possibly be futile.

Idaho, where we always vote Republican for president, is probably as good as it gets for conservatives escaping from California.

Jest leave our public lands alone, ok?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 31, 2016 - 08:41pm PT
I didn't say I disagreed with permits at all. I only said that there wasn't free access to everyone all the time. Sheesh.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 31, 2016 - 11:29pm PT
Jest leave our public lands alone, ok?

Too late. The Feds (we the people of the United States ) own 61.6% of Idaho.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 1, 2016 - 01:59am PT
the BLM HQ in Burns is flying the Gadsden rattler flag.

jonnyrig

climber
Feb 1, 2016 - 06:39am PT
No need to neuter yourself, I thought humans could control their urges without being surgically altered, unlike animals. Contraception is available and cheap, and there's voting mechanism in place to influence policies

Conservatives, in general, and the types who support the militias, in general, don't much believe in contraception. You ever look at the data for whose kids generally end up pregnant? Go ask Sara Palin about that. I'm sure you'll get an interesting answer.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 1, 2016 - 06:42am PT
katz posted
Oh, by the way, where I grew up (outside the US) one could easily:

1) be attacked, tortured, killed, etc by a gang of thugs once go hiking in the woods, mostly public land...that's because the government didn't give rat's tail about what's going on out out there. Considering you couldn't carry gun in most cases, you had to know how to use an axe, knife and other handy items. Broken bottle was a weapon of choice, as I recall. Like one against five, or against their hunting rifle. Full freedom!

2) find garbage, trash anywhere

3) massive poaching and illegal tree cutting. If you complain, you'd get killed. (could happen to rangers themselves) May be have animal liver or guts nailed to your house door first, for a warning, though. Or, get your house burned (no, no cruel mandatory sentences for arson!--most arsons went unpunished). Whole villages burned sometimes (with whoever didn't have time to get away). Those winds can be really fast. Full on freedom from the government!

Did I mention your rescue being your sole responsibility? Or lone drivers taken from empty forest roads by the gangs?

US public lands are super safe (even with all the growers, who mostly mind own business) and I hope they stay this way, they must be doing something right at this point. Not everywhere, not in every instance, of course, but overall. This is afforded by strong government action plus 2nd amendment protection, and not by everyone being beneficial and kind, free and peace-loving! The overpopulation + open border policy is the sole cause of all extra-strong restrictions (like ones for Half Dome) that are in place: it'll only get worse if population continues to increase.

Escopeta responded
My god, if someone that didn't even grow up here is carrying water for .gov, we are doomed.


Lamenting the lack of gangs and trash on public lands in this thread.
franky

Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
Feb 1, 2016 - 07:48am PT
Survival, I wasn't trying to be disagreeable. I don't think a rational person would argue that there shouldn't be some kind of control on access to federal land.

Escopeta seems to argue that federal land is too restrictive and they arbitrarily close it to citizens, and that there is some unseen power hungry bureaucrat who wants his/her agency to own everything and totally close it to public use.

I would argue that it is the least restrictive land of all, and closures represent best efforts at compromise between the many groups of concerned citizens who have different ideas about management, balanced against what the science says is sustainable use.

So pointing out that there is regulation on federal lands is in line with either side of the discussion.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 1, 2016 - 07:55am PT
franky, no worries. I gotcha.

Like I said in my post about his point, I prefer the feds.

I still can't get over the fact that my family was chucked off PUBLIC LAND by a rancher because he thought the place was his because he paid fees. My wife was steaming, and I did discuss it with the guy, but I wasn't willing to get confrontational. He had friends with him, and we had kids with us, and we were a long way from anywhere. Made me extremely mad too, but there was lots of land to play on out there, so the smartest choice at that moment was just to split and let him believe that he was Ben Cartright....

BONANZAGHAZI!!!
Slabby D

Trad climber
B'ham WA
Feb 1, 2016 - 08:09am PT
This is all going to make for some of the best South Park Episodes ever!
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Feb 1, 2016 - 08:23am PT
the smartest choice at that moment was just to split and let him believe that he was Ben Cartright....

Bruce, Ben Cartright might have ridden over to check on you if he saw you on his land, but once he realized you weren't cattle rustlers or horse thieves, he'd have probably told you to have a great day, and to stop in at the house on your way out to share a meal.

And it would have been his land, not federal land that he was kicking you out of at gunpoint. At least I think Ben owned that ranch, and wasn't illegally grazing his cattle on it and not paying the fees.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Feb 1, 2016 - 09:13am PT
This is all going to make for some of the best South Park Episodes ever!

I hadn't even thought of that... This is epic material...
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 1, 2016 - 09:24am PT
some think the Carwrights swindled everyone else out of that half million acre spread and said so..

It wasn't all that rosey. Somebody got killed on the property almost every week. Some were under pretty suspicious circumstances. I'm surprised sherrif Coffee didn't tear his hair out worrying about that family. It got so bad Adam Cartwright left Nevada and went to sea, some say to avoid prosecution.

And Ben was as trigger happy as Lavoy. He was always drawing on people.

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 1, 2016 - 10:00am PT
Bruce, Ben Cartright might have ridden over to check on you if he saw you on his land, but once he realized you weren't cattle rustlers or horse thieves, he'd have probably told you to have a great day, and to stop in at the house on your way out to share a meal.

Ghost, I thought that even as I was writing it, but it was fun to riff on a famous TV rancher anyway. HA!!
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 1, 2016 - 10:07am PT
This thread will now motor to 2,000 posts by morphing into a Bonanza fanboy thread.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Feb 1, 2016 - 10:26am PT
*
^^
Really?...You forgot about the Beautiful.. Linda Evens..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQUI-sYtYtc

Survival, Timid and i were also tooled by ranchers on public lands @ Stoney Ford reservoir ..A rude rancher told us to get out that we were trespassing on private property..We replied, isn't this public land?..Rancher"No, so get out!!".

He was standing next to his truck and had a shot gun in his truck, so.. not wanting a redneck-round-up .. we vacated the area.
When we got back to the campground we talked with the ranger... The State ranger said " It's public land, you have the right to hike where ever you please"...It's calving season, so he's a bit testy, but it's not his private property.

edit: and speaking of Malheur National Wildlife Refuge..I have seen several articles that quote ranchers who seem to work well with the refuge & the State. ..Here is one that has some quotes.
http://www.triplepundit.com/2016/02/real-agenda-behind-oregon-takeover/

Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Feb 1, 2016 - 10:37am PT
^ I guess that rancher was going to have a cow....
(remember that turn of phrase?)
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 1, 2016 - 02:27pm PT
Apparently the pro-Bundy crowd is learning something about the more traditional form of protest in America...heh heh heh....


http://katu.com/news/local/rally-planned-in-burns-following-finicums-shooting
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 1, 2016 - 02:53pm PT
Just so I get the story straight. Some of your are advocating for more government controlled lands, because you don't have the stones to stand up to a rancher that tries to run you off of public property?


What am I missing?



monolith

climber
state of being
Feb 1, 2016 - 03:26pm PT
Some of your are advocating for more government controlled lands

We are happy with the public land we have access to now, thanks.

because you don't have the stones to stand up to a rancher that tries to run you off of public property?

Escopeta wants you to bring guns to stand up to the ranchers with guns and make some kind of stand in the backcountry.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 1, 2016 - 03:28pm PT
Escopeta, you're missing the part where you're being a dick.

I never said more govt. land. I simply said it pissed me off to be run off clearly marked BLM land.

I had 2 small children with me. This mouthy man had 2 other grown men in his truck. We were 15 miles from the nearest paved road. I had no idea what they would have behaved like if I had flat out told them no. This was in deep old school New Mexico where some of the hispanic families still have "land grant" from the king of Spain mentality.

So I suppose your "stones" would have had you throwing hands with 3 guys while your small kids were there?

thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Feb 1, 2016 - 03:33pm PT
stand up to a rancher that tries to run you off of public property

this is why I move swiftly and carry wire-snips. hehehehe
monolith

climber
state of being
Feb 1, 2016 - 03:52pm PT
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/01/oregon-armed-militia-standoff-cliven-ammon-bundy-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge

thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Feb 1, 2016 - 03:55pm PT
Well they "Internet[-ed]" it, so they should be good


And yeah, last I checked Harney County isn't part of Nevada, nor vice versa. Perhaps he does not understand English, or maybe it's geography
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 1, 2016 - 04:00pm PT
And yeah, last I checked Harney County isn't part of Nevada,

Haha. About three clauses in the Constitution violated by that one line.
monolith

climber
state of being
Feb 1, 2016 - 04:10pm PT
Common law grand jury orders the militia to arrest the officers involved in the death of LaVoy Finicum.

These men are employed by the French banking cartel known as the International Monetary Fund which is an agency of the United Nations.

http://twitter.com/jason_a_w/status/694282397496442880
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Feb 1, 2016 - 04:16pm PT
I've ordered the 1st Marine Division to reclaim the refuge.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Feb 1, 2016 - 04:24pm PT
Must be something in the cow crap tainted water.

Jimson Weed or Shrooms possibly?

Looney Toons

While they are off playing patriot in Oregon, I am going invade Bunkerville with my Dragons and by 10,000 unsullied eunuchs.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 1, 2016 - 04:28pm PT
I never said more govt. land. I simply said it pissed me off to be run off clearly marked BLM land.

Actually, you said you preferred gov't land ownership. Twice. Jackass.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 1, 2016 - 04:33pm PT
I did say that, dick.

Nowhere did I say MORE. Bone up on your reading skills.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 1, 2016 - 04:37pm PT
Then you self-selected. Which is not my fault. Maybe to divert attention from the fact you got punked off your own precious government land.

If you want to call names, I'm down for whatever. <shrugs>
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Feb 1, 2016 - 05:36pm PT
Just so I get the story straight. Some of your are advocating for more government controlled lands, because you don't have the stones to stand up to a rancher that tries to run you off of public property?
What am I missing?

Ummm..reading comprehension skills..

edit > for below,..Thanks >Lorenzo, You might be snackless, and.. Thanks> Johnboy..
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 1, 2016 - 06:02pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Feb 1, 2016 - 06:33pm PT
What am I missing?Here

Your missing the reality of the situation.

You've never been out in the middle 2000 BLM acres with just you,unarmed, and a rancher with a rifle having a bad day.

Makes for a pretty easy answer.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 1, 2016 - 06:57pm PT
And that has relevance to the way government property is managed how?
jonnyrig

climber
Feb 1, 2016 - 07:01pm PT

Your missing the reality of the situation.

You've never been out in the middle 2000 BLM acres with just you,unarmed, and a rancher with a rifle having a bad day.

The reality of the situation is that a lot of the people on this thread wouldn't think that's justification for you to be armed; and/or that being armed is not a justifiable nor practical means of self-defense.
monolith

climber
state of being
Feb 1, 2016 - 07:08pm PT
And that has relevance to the way government property is managed how?

It means we'd rather encounter an armed BLM person than a pissed off armed rancher.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Feb 1, 2016 - 07:09pm PT
i thought that the beauty of america was that we did not need to carry our weapons. I hate feeling like I need to keep my firearm handy for want of protection from humans. Especially on public boonie land.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Feb 1, 2016 - 07:10pm PT
More guns agaisnt guns?

One of the problems, people puffin themselves up behind the barrel of a gun instead of a settling by law. Law,you know, that thing they are all fighting for.
overwatch

climber
Feb 1, 2016 - 07:11pm PT
Egopetter is the breath of fresh ITG air this forum needs
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 1, 2016 - 07:20pm PT
It means we'd rather encounter an armed BLM person than a pissed off armed rancher.

The armed BLM person is far more likely to kick you off your "public" property. But I digress.

The rancher has the same right to be there that you do. Are you saying you want the armed BLM person to be there to protect you from other citizens that might try to chase you off public property?




Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 1, 2016 - 07:27pm PT
Then I will ask again, how is that relevant to the manner in which our public lands are managed?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Feb 1, 2016 - 09:43pm PT
The armed BLM person is far more likely to kick you off your "public" property. But I digress.

The rancher has the same right to be there that you do. Are you saying you want the armed BLM person to be there to protect you from other citizens that might try to chase you off public property?

escopeta, this is like your right nut fighting your left. "get out of my sack you lefty!" "f*#k you and all like you!".

your being a dick go have a ball fight.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Feb 1, 2016 - 10:02pm PT
I like how Cliven bothered to notarize his Notice. Like, now, it's official. I also appreciate his comments that he served Internet notice to "the world".
franky

Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
Feb 1, 2016 - 10:03pm PT

The armed BLM person is far more likely to kick you off your "public" property. But I digress.

Disagree.
franky

Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
Feb 1, 2016 - 10:11pm PT
Also, the rancher has the same right to be there, but he doesn't have the right to tell someone they can't be. Assault is illegal, and it would be a great time to have a BLM officer show up to enforce the law. That is unlikely as the BLM is woefully understaffed in most areas.

You would have to be a moron to think picking a fight with that rancher is the right thing to do in that situation, so I'll conclude you're just trying to be an internet tough guy.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 2, 2016 - 04:35am PT
Good lord. You people are calling me names, and telling me to go away and then calling ME the internet tough guy? That's rich.

I'm still trying to get anyone to explain the rationale for preferring government land because some rancher ran you off of it. Its already public land, you want it to be "Special" Public land where ranchers would know better to try and throw you off of it?

As Franky say, I guess what it comes down to is that you prefer public land because there's law enforcement there? To protect you from raving ranchers and such. Which is fine I guess, just took a long time to get there, why didn't you just say that in the first place.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 2, 2016 - 05:12am PT
Escopeta posted
Just so I get the story straight. Some of your are advocating for more government controlled lands, because you don't have the stones to stand up to a rancher that tries to run you off of public property?

Escopeta is right. This should be handled with a gunfight between private parties. I mean if you don't have the balls to get into armed conflict to defend your right to use public lands then you really don't deserve that right to begin with.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 2, 2016 - 06:49am PT
i thought that the beauty of america was that we did not need to carry our weapons. I hate feeling like I need to keep my firearm handy for want of protection from humans. Especially on public boonie land.


And all this time I thought the beauty of America was that we were free to live our lives how we see fit even if it meant we were responsible for our own sense of security. How silly of me.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Feb 2, 2016 - 06:53am PT

And all this time I thought the beauty of America was that we were free to live our lives how we see fit...
unless you're black, brown, gay, non-christian... then conservatives spend a lot of time telling you how to live your life.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 2, 2016 - 07:01am PT
Right. And liberals are simply the bastions of freedom. Lol
franky

Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
Feb 2, 2016 - 07:13am PT
Escopeta, your post really doesn't make any sense. Land ownership has nothing to do with breaking the law (other than possibly deciding who has jurisdiction).

I would prefer land to be public because when a rancher tells you to leave, it is illegal. If he owned it, it wouldn't be. Most US citizens do their best to avoid carrying out vigilante justice.

Troll!

Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 2, 2016 - 07:16am PT
Well, I wasn't the person that connected those dots so don't blame me. It doesn't make any sense to me either.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Feb 2, 2016 - 07:47am PT
Right. And liberals are simply the bastions of freedom. Lol

Look at history and tell us who has done more to promote personal liberty in this country.

In 1776 American conservatives wanted to hang the Founding Fathers.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Feb 2, 2016 - 07:52am PT
*
*
Cliven Bundy's address......Such fun!
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 2, 2016 - 07:53am PT
Gary, legislating freedom is nothing more than government by waiver. You've been duped into thinking that a government that outlaws everything and then feeds a little back to you is a surrogate for being free. You just happen to like the feel of their handcuffs better. For the moment....
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 2, 2016 - 07:57am PT
Right. And liberals are simply the bastions of freedom. Lol

Darn tootin'.

Liberals are all about embracing diversity...









except when they're not.
dirtbag

climber
Feb 2, 2016 - 07:58am PT
Then go to Burns and join up Esco. Quit bitching and do something.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 2, 2016 - 08:02am PT
Go lie down
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 2, 2016 - 08:03am PT
Escopeta is channelling Ron.

But go lie down was a good line, ha!!
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Feb 2, 2016 - 08:16am PT



Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho

Feb 2, 2016 - 07:01am PT
Right. And liberals are simply the bastions of freedom. Lol

Really genius? You just talk nonsense. Liberals secured the freedom of this nation, the freedom to own property, the freedom of representation, the freedom of government lands, the freedom from slavery. I could go on all day.

Remind me of the freedoms that were conserved willingly?


Escopeta is Greasy Dave the Occupier



Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 2, 2016 - 08:22am PT
Oh, you must be one of those people that think classic liberals hold even the slightest resemblance to the people that self-apply that title today. Pfft.
franky

Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
Feb 2, 2016 - 08:25am PT
So, the government is bad at managing land and protecting its citizens. Tell us your alternative.

I personally imagine that everything would be privately owned, covered in no trespassing signs, and things like hunting or climbing would be possible for fees of around $100 a day if you picked a budget spot (A day climbing in Yosemite, more like $1000). I imagine it that way because that's how it is in places where public land isn't common. Check out some prices for East River South Dakota pheasant hunts.

You want arguments to be settled by who has the faster draw or the harder punch? Are you an Anarchist?

Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 2, 2016 - 08:32am PT
Here we go again. The classic "government as a binary construct" argument.

If you advocate for even the slightest bit of more freedom you must be an Anarchist. Like government is some mystical faucet where you can only have it fully on or fully off.

I would be thrilled if we just stemmed the tide, much less actually returned some individual liberty. Pick any number less then 100% and that's all I want.
dirtbag

climber
Feb 2, 2016 - 08:38am PT
If you advocate for even the slightest bit of more freedom you must be an Anarchist. Like government is some mystical faucet where you can only have it fully on or fully off.

You're the one playing that game.
franky

Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
Feb 2, 2016 - 08:38am PT
so what the heck do you want? the government to give away some percentage of land it owns? I don't get what you're advocating for.

The government to keep owning land but manage it in a way that is more in line with what you like (more logging and ranching)?

As far as the police stuff, maybe we can just leave that be since it is a whole separate discussion.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Feb 2, 2016 - 08:40am PT
OK, Escopeta, tell us, was it conservatives who worked for women's suffrage? Was it conservatives who worked to repeal poll taxes? Were the Freedom Riders of the sixties conservatives? Were conservatives leading the charge for marriage equality? Inter-racial marriage?

I'm just wondering where in the gradual expansion of personal liberty in this country conservatives led the way.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Feb 2, 2016 - 08:42am PT
Cliven Bundy's address......Such fun!

Nita, now be nice!
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 2, 2016 - 08:44am PT
Gary,

Perhaps you're so entrenched and well versed in your "conservatives vs liberals" rhetoric that you missed an important part of my post.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Feb 2, 2016 - 08:45am PT
Here we go again

Just drop it then Ron.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 2, 2016 - 08:46am PT
Boxing up a bag of dicks for Cliven Bundy's address right now.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Feb 2, 2016 - 08:47am PT
You wrote:
Right. And liberals are simply the bastions of freedom. Lol

I pointed out that in many ways, they are.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Feb 2, 2016 - 08:56am PT
Cliven Bundy's address......Such fun
Notice he used a P.O. Box (though I do suppose if you live way the f- out in the middle of nowhere, the mail carrier isn't going to huff it out all the way to your front door).
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Feb 2, 2016 - 08:58am PT
"Rules are made for people who need rules."

It's been fairly well shown that when people don't have guidelines for behavior, they trash places to the point of ruin. While it is obviously true that not ALL people will behave this way, one would have to be blind not to be able to see that it is the case.

"You" may act very respectfully, responsibly and conservatively on public lands, but "you" are not the average visitor, and the average visitor is not the minority of visitors who act very poorly.

The average visitor will leave trash in a pile when they see others have done so, and there is no formal trash receptacle(carry in/out). The average visitor will trundle rocks, pick protected wildflowers and carve their names in wooden rails, because they just don't see why it is not appropriate.

The minority of poorly acting visitors will chop trees to make for a better composition in their nature photograph, will make campfires in dry conditions and allow them to go become out of control, will huck bags of trash off the cliffside after a picnic, will use open lands to dispose of their large item trash because they don't want to pay at a landfill. And on and on.

I understand people don't want armed rangers acting like Barney Fife deputies when they are out in the wilderness, or enjoying an evening around a fire at a campground site. But it takes very little imagination to know what such places would be like if there were no possible repercussions for acting badly. And it is that badly acting behavior that makes it that people innocent of such things(or maybe usually innocent, but not completely and always innocent) are managed by government agencies.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 2, 2016 - 09:30am PT
Just drop it then Ron.

Who is Ron?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 2, 2016 - 09:31am PT

I pointed out that in many ways, they are.

It was a good guess apparently.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 2, 2016 - 09:44am PT
Dude, I bet you get punted from this forum within a month. You sound just like the others...Fatty, The Chief, all of them.

They all posted extremely rude one or two sentence posts. They never posted on the trip reports or climbing threads. You are just another guy waiting to get axed until you put some substance up.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Feb 2, 2016 - 09:44am PT
Who is Ron

Pfft.

Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 2, 2016 - 09:50am PT

Dude, I bet you get punted from this forum within a month. You sound just like the others.

Advocates of freedom aren't welcome here? Who is Ron? Is this another situation where Craig fry will have to save me from the likes of the suppertopo liberal elite?
WBraun

climber
Feb 2, 2016 - 09:53am PT
Escopeta

Don't bother listening to these morons and their stoopid threats.

This place, this forum, is the house of stoopid .....
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 2, 2016 - 09:57am PT
Werner, you've been milking the federal tit most of your life. They've fed your face and allowed you to live in Yosemite longer than any human since the oldest Indians, pre-white man.

What makes you so anti-government?
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 2, 2016 - 10:00am PT
I'm beginning to think that actually self-punting for a few months might be a good idea periodically.

You have to weigh the opportunity costs of hanging out on this, or any other, internet forum too much.
-Shania's Dad


Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 2, 2016 - 10:06am PT
I'm beginning to think that actually self-punting for a few months might be a good idea periodically.

I haven't been here long but it seems like posting that you're leaving supertopo is like the co-dependent adult version of running away from home.
WBraun

climber
Feb 2, 2016 - 10:11am PT
survival

Quit your stupid projections.

I don't milk anyone.

Plus I'm not anti govt. at all.

You people are such morons projecting so much bullsh!t on this forum.

Unbelievable
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Feb 2, 2016 - 10:50am PT
*
Bryan, I get why people think you are Ron...

First , you just joined supertopo and you already have over three hundred posts...it's early in the day and you have posted 20 times.. your reading comprehension, ......you tend to spin some folks conversations in order to cause/ create drama, very much like Ron & Leb....your supertopo handle translates to shotgun, and your mail is disabled ..... Just a couple of reasons why some people think you are Ron.

BTW, I know my political views are different than Kris Solem.....but
when he joins in on a conversation, he listens and speaks his mind without trolling. I totally respect his views even though we may think differently.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Feb 2, 2016 - 10:51am PT
I did not see duck milking a chicken wing.

I like Anarchism in the ol' drunk Ed Abbey way of looking at it. Something.


PeopleRStupid is a North Fork Rancheria ish Enterprise. Maybe the duck is right and the goose is loose.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 2, 2016 - 11:36am PT
Another Wildlife Refuge Occupied!!

http://www.oregonlive.com/history/2016/01/oregon_standoff_feds_forcibly.html
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 2, 2016 - 12:11pm PT
Nita,

It's wonderful that you think so highly of KSolem, as do I. Always have, always will. Regardless of what we happen to agree or disagree on.

But alas, I'm not him. And i post a lot in the morning since I'm an early bird. Especially today since I had to catch a flight to LA. Which, as you might imagine, puts me in a patriculalry Pro-freedom state of mind.

Since I'm unaware of the "Ron" and "Leb" history, I don't know what significance my user name holds. If you knew me better, you'd understand why it's quite suitable for me.

While I would love to connect with others from back in the day, I don't allow emails because I have zero interest in receiving hate mail via my inbox. So like many things in life I have to make a choice.

I do, however, find it interesting that you would opine on the "quality" of my posts in light of the numerous other 'contributors' that set the bar. And the fact that I have been so warmly received into the welcoming bosom of free thought and objectivity that is supertopo
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 2, 2016 - 12:16pm PT
Escopeta posted
And all this time I thought the beauty of America was that we were free to live our lives how we see fit even if it meant we were responsible for our own sense of security. How silly of me.

Great point, Escopeta. Everyone should be reminded of how President Washington in his inaugural address stated, "Nice job, everybody. You're on your own now. Good luck with everything!"
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Feb 2, 2016 - 12:27pm PT
Can't we all agree to disagree? (Once it hits 2000 posts)
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 2, 2016 - 12:28pm PT
We need to get back to Bonanzachat
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 2, 2016 - 04:26pm PT
You can now play a Counterstrike map scenario: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=598715073

A group of heavily armed patriots known only as "Vanilla Isis" have decided to launch a rebellion against their tyrannical government! Using their brilliant tactical mind they chose their first target: a mostly unoccupied bird sanctuary and wildlife refuge. After about 2 days of holding this territory from the feds they have unfortunately run out of vital supplies like slim jims,energy drinks and beer. In an act of desperation for more supplies they have taken a couple of orange jumpsuit wearing bird watchers hostage. Now with human lives at stake the feds have been forced to respond.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Feb 2, 2016 - 04:34pm PT
I think the chief is back........

With better grammar .......lol.
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Feb 2, 2016 - 04:51pm PT
All the "quote" marks reminds me of madbolter1 who was a genuine PITA in my opinion.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Feb 2, 2016 - 04:55pm PT
No coincidence that the abrasive escopeta is rich. The typical a-hole factor in american wealth.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 2, 2016 - 06:04pm PT
Gary, legislating freedom is nothing more than government by waiver. You've been duped into thinking that a government that outlaws everything and then feeds a little back to you is a surrogate for being free. You just happen to like the feel of their handcuffs better. For the moment....

E, if you think America is so terribly free of freedom, feel free to leave.
The outer parts of Siberia may be more to your liking. No law, no services, nobody.
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Feb 2, 2016 - 06:11pm PT
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 2, 2016 - 06:12pm PT
If you advocate for even the slightest bit of more freedom you must be an Anarchist. Like government is some mystical faucet where you can only have it fully on or fully off.

I would be thrilled if we just stemmed the tide, much less actually returned some individual liberty. Pick any number less then 100% and that's all I want.

If you were actually a long-term resident of the country (A REAL American), then you'd remember, like me, when we recited prayers at the beginning of PUBLIC school. Amazingly, only prayers of a particular type.

If you were actually a real American, you'd remember when the house I live in had a restricted covenant prohibiting sales to "coloreds" or jews.

So, yeah, I am thrilled at how liberty has been enhanced over my lifetime, and continues to be so.
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 2, 2016 - 07:25pm PT
If you were actually a real American, you'd remember when the house I live in had a restricted covenant prohibiting sales to "coloreds" or jews.

Still there today, just not as blatantly codified.

"one nation under god ..."



rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Feb 2, 2016 - 07:34pm PT
Escopeta is refreshing...He asks the pressing questions that no one can answer...
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 2, 2016 - 07:58pm PT
OK I'll bite.

Advocates of freedom aren't welcome here?
Who is Ron?
Is this another situation where Craig fry will have to save me from the likes of the suppertopo liberal elite?
What am I missing?
And that has relevance to the way government property is managed how?
I gather you would have been comfortable rubbing Janet Reno's feet while she drove the tank into the nursery area at Waco then?
After seeing the outcome, are you still confused about why he wanted to get away?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 3, 2016 - 05:52am PT
zBrown- Advocates for freedom are always welcome. But if your answer for everything is "because freedom" or "because liberty" then you might not be the articulate advocate for freedom you imagine yourself being.

Additionally, one person's freedom is another person's regulation. The vast majority of "political correctness" (a term that has virtually lost all meaning) is the assertion that people outside of the traditional American mainstream be treated in a reasonably inclusive manner. Many people think "freedom" means being able to speak and act in a way that knowingly or unknowingly disparages huge portions of Americans. Those "freedoms" are at odds with each other.


Spiny- love the Star Wars ad. The tagline is perfect.
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 3, 2016 - 07:36am PT
zBrown- Advocates for freedom are always welcome. But if your answer for everything is "because freedom" or "because liberty" then you might not be the articulate advocate for freedom you imagine yourself being.

Huh?
You're free to ask Escopet. I'm not gonna read any farther back.

Imagine? A song by John Lennon.


dirtbag

climber
Feb 3, 2016 - 07:42am PT
Making arguments in terms of "you're either for government tyranny or you're for freedom" gets old fast.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 3, 2016 - 07:49am PT
There are a lot of people in the U.S. that have been conditioned to ask for permission before they are allowed to do even the most basic things. Essentially they are forced to justify all the ways they might want to act, or do, or not do.

I prefer the approach that affords people to live their lives how they see fit as long as they respect the equal rights of others.

I would like to see personal liberty be the presumption and we force the people that want to limit it to provide the justification rather than me having to justify why I should be allowed to do something. That requires constant care and attention. Instead most people are focused on using government as a weapon to limit others freedoms, vs protecting their own.

The Republican and Democratic parties have both contributed to this conditioning.

Want to smoke pot, marry your cat, own a gun, start a new small business, send emails or surf the web in private? We are asked to prove why we need such dangerous freedoms.

Instead of laws telling us all the things we can't do (so many that there is no way to count them all) how about we pass laws protecting what we can do? In the absence of that, .gov expands to fill the void.



Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Feb 3, 2016 - 07:51am PT
Want to smoke pot, marry your cat, own a gun, start a new small business, send emails or surf the web in private? We are asked to prove why we need such dangerous freedoms.

Which country do you live in?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 3, 2016 - 08:22am PT
Marry your cat is a bit of a stretch. But stil signifies a desire on my part for government to get out of the business of marriage completely. Including all the social engineering that accompanies it.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Feb 3, 2016 - 08:23am PT
ok Escopeta, now you have posted something thoughtful so I take back my earlier remarks. i see where you are coming from, on the other hand, i don't understand this relates to Malheur WLR.

I prefer the approach that affords people to live their lives how they see fit as long as they respect the equal rights of others.

with regards to this statement, unfortunately people do not respect the equal rights of others. we have religious wackos who want to inflict their religion on others, we have users of federal land(which should be all ours) who repeatedly misbehave and trample on others rights and that of course is why some laws get into effect.

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Feb 3, 2016 - 08:28am PT
What kind of cat?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 3, 2016 - 08:39am PT
Hawkeye +1

fear, lol


we have users of federal land(which should be all ours) who repeatedly misbehave and trample on others rights and that of course is why some laws get into effect.

Exactly. Escopeta totally read into my previous comments about a rancher on BLM land. Again, I never advocated for more govt. land, or called for more fed law enforcement to be everywhere to deal with the rancher. I merely said that it pissed me off that he trampled on the rights of my family to be on our public land. I didn't try to take my family on a hike through his living room, we went to clearly marked BLM land. That was it esco, that was the entire point.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 3, 2016 - 08:44am PT
Hawkeye,

The Malhuer discussion morphed and broadened so I put that response here since this is where I was accused (again) of not conducting the exchange properly. To which I would direct the reader to several others right on this page. Plenty of examples of gov overreach in the Malhuer case directly or indirectly relevant to my comments. However...

Despite the ridiculous claims of some of the mouth breathing retards on here, I am far from advocating Anarchy, with no laws.

As John Locke eloquently stated, "where there is no laws, there is no freedom". I firmly believe that liberty includes being free from restraint and violence not only from other citizens but also the ruling party/government.

The rule of law is but one cog in the wheel of freedom. When you say people want to inflict their religion on others? If that means advocating for their life choices, then they should be free to do that (just as I should be free to tell them to pound sand). Were you referencing something more specific? Legislation?

Being free is a dirty business. I fully recognize that. But I feel it's a better Choice than our current state or path. We have lots of freedom here, make no mistake but we aren't protecting it well and I want more.



BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 3, 2016 - 09:02am PT
The only thing we should take away from this is that the Sovereign Citizen movement characters like Cliven Bundy, are a menace. They are considered the #1 domestic terror threat, or at least the militia movement is.

Remember Tim McVeigh? He wasn't in a militia, but he was damn sure indoctrinated into it.

Living in the OKC area, I have no love for these jerks.

The only real thing, and it got obscured by this whole takeover of the Refuge, was those ranchers who got the mandatory minimum for burning a little scrubland that probably needed burning anyway.

Remember the 90's? Fight crime? Judges letting bad guys go with a slap on the wrist, so Congress instituted Mandatory Minimums. If we do anything, we need to get rid of mandatory minimums. There are people doing very long federal prison sentences (remember no parole in the federal system), for small, non-violent, offences.

The ranchers, the Hammonds, should be pardoned soon, but now that will be ten times more difficult to do. It would be funny to be released by Obama, who those guys hate.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 3, 2016 - 09:16am PT
Being free is a dirty business. I fully recognize that. But I feel it's a better Choice than our current state or path. We have lots of freedom here, make no mistake but we aren't protecting it well and I want more.

Our current path IS the dirty business you admit to.

It's always the fight between what one person considers personal freedom and what the effects of that personal freedom do to infringe on the freedom of others in a finite world.

It's called civilization.

The rancher claiming public land as his own is but one example. A miner being 'free' to pollute a salmon river is no freedom for those who live off salmon.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 3, 2016 - 09:20am PT
I'm not clear about who you consider to be the "our" in your statement. But I can tell you who it doesn't encompass, and it's a majority of citizens and its roughly 100% of elected officials.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 3, 2016 - 09:22am PT
Advocates of freedom aren't welcome here?

Certainly knott if they don't tout the party line. Whoever said "Inside every liberal is a totalitarian screaming to get out" surely knows his French history.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 3, 2016 - 09:58am PT
Republican and Democrat party lines are both focused on increasing the power and control of government.

If we continue to allow this concentration of power within our government, the end result is reduced freedom. Dispersed power and governance does more to foster individual liberty and economic freedom and growth. That is historical truth, not hypothesis.

Concentrations of power set up the kinds of squeeze jobs that people like the Hammonds suffer under. And many others.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 3, 2016 - 10:01am PT
The only thing we should take away from this is that the Sovereign Citizen movement characters like Cliven Bundy, are a menace. They are considered the #1 domestic terror threat, or at least the militia movement is

What would you propose be done about this #1 domestic terror threat?
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Feb 3, 2016 - 10:12am PT
Escopeta. I am relieved to discover that you know everything and there is no need to provide a basis for any opinion so long as it is presented as fact.

Dispersed power and governance does more to foster individual liberty and economic freedom and growth. That is historical truth, not hypothesis.

Historical truth is a pretty comic concept.
overwatch

climber
Feb 3, 2016 - 10:17am PT
What would you propose be done about this #1 domestic terror threat?

I don't know...double or even triple down posting?
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 3, 2016 - 10:34am PT
Feb 3, 2016 - 09:20am PT
I'm not clear about who you consider to be the "our" in your statement. But I can tell you who it doesn't encompass, and it's a majority of citizens and its roughly 100% of elected officials.

Don't compartmentalize. That's just a facile blame game.

It encompasses all of us, including the elected officials. We elected them, sometime for many terms despite them not living up to their promises to us and their failure to govern responsibly.
As citizens, we get the elected officials we chose and deserve. We have a system of laws we passed through our elected officials that apply to everyone. It is when we don't insist on accountability and a sense for the common good that the system fails.

That's why it's dirty. I'm not sure what blissful system you are proposing that doesn't encompass that fact. Perhaps you can articulate. Unchecked freedom for everyone doesn't sound like an answer.

Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Feb 3, 2016 - 10:34am PT
What would you propose be done about this #1 domestic terror threat?

I think we really are going to see trouble coming in the upcoming months, if our country cannot get a handle on this.

It's one thing to protest, to work within the system for change, and another entirely for people to engage is the shenanigans the Bundy Buddies are up to.

The people who live in the region of Malheur have been very explicit about the problems it is incurring for them - they don't feel safe in their own county because strangers armed with weapons and crazy doctrine are camping out and causing mayhem. And yet - they just keep making more crazy.

Really - for god's sake - do we want a civil war? Because that is where this is HEADING. Hard to imagine? I would hope so, but when you have these "militia" folks raring for action, promoting insane talk that those too lazy/stupid to research and analyze rationally, and nutters who believe the bullshit they're being fed on agenda-based media sources - how does it END?

Supposing one of the whackadoodles who's encamped in that area hears "the word of God" telling him he must shoot the enemy, who arrives in the garb of LEO. NOW what? Does law enforcement back off and keep asking politely that the shooter disarm and surrender? When you know damned well they won't? Even if they demobilize with non-lethal tactics and take the shooter into custody, there are 10 to 100 "civilians" now sure it's a conspiracy and hearing themselves "called."


It started with hate and fear, stemming from the 911 attacks.

The US government is wondering how to staunch the radicalization of ISIS wannabes - they had better start doing the same on these homegrown based fundamentalist groups.





Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 3, 2016 - 10:37am PT
Historical truth is a pretty comic concept.

That's a third grader's, admittedly with a good vocabulary, idea of a refutation.
In my junior high debate club you would have bern laughed at, sir, to put it politely.
dirtbag

climber
Feb 3, 2016 - 10:37am PT
Yep, Finicum's death has energized the kooks. I expect an escalation.
jonnyrig

climber
Feb 3, 2016 - 10:37am PT
Remember folks, ISIS is just responding to the word of God too. They just call him Allah.

If the people of Burns don't want outsiders there, it is time for ALL of them to stand up against them. Additionally, since these people are coming from out of state to stand and protest in Burns (peacefully, of course), then anyone opposed to their protest should travel in as well and set up a peaceful counter-protest as well.

The problem with good, law abiding citizens is that they are apathetic in their approach to dealing with these situations, simply allowing/assuming that someone else will put people in their place with whom they disagree. Bravo to those who were brave enough to go to Malhuer and protest the occupation. Support your 1st amendment and let your voice be know, no matter WHICH side of the issue you stand upon.

And while you're at it, don't forget to support the 2nd and all the rest of the Constitution and its amendments.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 3, 2016 - 10:40am PT
Escopeta posted
There are a lot of people in the U.S. that have been conditioned to ask for permission before they are allowed to do even the most basic things. Essentially they are forced to justify all the ways they might want to act, or do, or not do.

I prefer the approach that affords people to live their lives how they see fit as long as they respect the equal rights of others.

You could not illustrate the problem more clearly and more confusingly at the same time. Who are they asking permission from? And what are "the most basic things?"

Here's a great example: My coworker has a neighbor. The neighbor decided to do some of the most basic things which included cutting down some mature trees and then taking a backhoe and digging along his property line. He was not conditioned to ask permission so he exercised his rights as a Freedom Loving American. Unfortunately, the trees he cut down weren't on his property as he thought, they were on my coworker's property. What has ensued is a several months long property dispute. 2 surveys (one from each party) have agreed that the property line is where my coworker says it is. They have had to get injunctions issues against the guy which he has repeatedly ignored. The police won't do anything because they don't enforce property rights. So anytime the neighbor wants to fire up his backhoe he can basically do so and all my coworker can do is file for yet ANOTHER emergency hearing to get the judge to tell him to stop.

No intrusive government here, no heavy hand of the law, just a guy who wasn't conditioned to ask permission for things and some property owners who are constantly struggling to not simply shoot the guy off of his backhoe.
jonnyrig

climber
Feb 3, 2016 - 10:44am PT
Your coworker needs to sue for damages. That's how civil cases work. Then garnish his income.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Feb 3, 2016 - 10:51am PT
Instead of laws telling us all the things we can't do (so many that there is no way to count them all) how about we pass laws protecting what we can do? In the absence of that, .gov expands to fill the void.
This thread has gotten far more interesting.

You have it backwards. Laws telling things we cannot do arise from the theory that, generally, the status quo of government is non-intervention. This concept is embodied in our Bill of Rights. Freedom of speech, the press and peaceful assembly, from unreasonable searches and seizures, from forced quartering of soldiers and (the redneck favorite) the right to bear arms for purposes of maintaining "a well regulated militia" (though 2nd Amendment apologist routinely ignore that important preface).

Laws are intended to provide boundries so we can govern our conduct. You cross a known line established by a law and you know you've transgressed it. In fact, the literal translation of Crime and Punishment is "transgression and punishment". The Founding Fathers recognized the problem with creating laws that say what you can do. Failure to designate every specific right might be construed as an absence of that right. They knew that there would be some ambiguity but, where there is, it's the purpose of the judiciary to sort out what our laws actually mean.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 3, 2016 - 10:53am PT
jonnyrig posted
Your coworker needs to sue for damages. That's how civil cases work. Then garnish his income.

You'd think it was that easy. But it's not. And the lawyers have cost thousands upon thousands of dollars in the meantime.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Feb 3, 2016 - 11:35am PT
some interesting stuff here.

based upon what I have read (and I read some of the court case on the Hammonds), the worst thing they got hit with was the minimum sentence law that has already been mentioned. other than that I don't think they were squeezed by over regulation. but obviously, each person has a different perspective. I wasn't trying to raise cows out in that area, but I have gone out there hiking, biking and camping. I have even been known to visit a wildlife refuge on occasion. that certainly provides me with a different perspective and a different view of rights and freedom.



fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Feb 3, 2016 - 11:45am PT
Seriously, we talking about a domestic cat or something more exotic... like a Fossa?

Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 3, 2016 - 11:53am PT
Hawkeye,

Reading the court documents of the Hammond case gives you insight into the final act of a very long play. Without the context of all the various acts that came before it doesn't outline the history or coercion, and heavy handed tactics that led to the final situation.

Every person has their limit. Their final straw. And that final straw doesn't necessarily have to be the best example of what led to that point, it's just the last straw.

As HL Menken said (paraphrased) "every man at times decides to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats".

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Feb 3, 2016 - 12:02pm PT
Escopeta,

my read on the Hammonds is different. I thought the government was lenient. these guys threatened the feds there. the feds there don't have any control other than to enforce the laws. that's their job, they didn't make the rule book. if the hammonds didn't like the rules of using OUR land, then they should not have used it. pretty simple don't you think?

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 3, 2016 - 12:04pm PT
White terrorism works.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 3, 2016 - 12:27pm PT
Lorenzo,

Your comment about not compartmentalizing and then further down stating that we need to hold people accountable seem to be in conflict. Did I misunderstand?

And yes, it is important to understand that a high percentage of citizens and virtually all elected officials embrace the expansion of government. That's not blame it's instructive in terms of how to move forward.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 3, 2016 - 12:41pm PT
Hawkeye,

I have as much to gain from proper management of public lands as anyone. My concern is focused more on the fact that the government actively pursued land acquisition from citizens who otherwise didn't want to sell but were left with little choice simply because the government put the squeeze on those people through pulling their grazing rights (for no reason other than coercion) fencing off legal water rights, closing right of ways and easements. All of this leaves the citizens with two choices: fight the gov in court, or sell. Not just the Hammonds look at the history and other landowners.

I don't think the government should be actively acquiring land and I don't like the fact that gov is able to have the power to exercise the kind of strong arm tactics that would get frowned upon if followed by anyone else.

This is a case of the gov wanting that land and the hammonds not wanting to give it up. through actively engineering it with coercion, or via slow-walking other requests that the Hammonds made.

I'm a believer in the legal system (as I stated above) but I'm against the kind of concentrations of government power that supports this kind of action.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Feb 3, 2016 - 12:49pm PT
My concern is focused more on the fact that the government actively pursued land acquisition from citizens who otherwise didn't want to sell but were left with little choice simply because the government put the squeeze on those people through pulling their grazing rights (for no reason other than coercion) fencing off legal water rights, closing right of ways and easements. All of this leaves the citizens with two choices: fight the gov in court, or sell.

no doubt that was done in the past, way, way back. but I guess I am looking for something more contemporary, like say that last 2-3 decades?

and if that were happening that's when you write your congressman and senator and bring it to the press. agree with you that if this were happening now, then that is government overreach. unless, it is for the greater good. Who defines that? tough call.

take Seattle. great place, I love it. but if they don't increase public transportation somehow, someway, it will turn into a big $hithole. that may mean that the government will have to try and buy some properties to build better mass transport. so while we switched the discussion from a rural area to an urban example, its still the same thing and things will happen.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 3, 2016 - 01:13pm PT
What would you propose be done about this #1 domestic terror threat?

There is nothing that you can do, if they don't break any laws. They benefit from the same laws that the rest of us do.

I think that they (the feds) ought to go down to Nevada and shoot every last one of Bundy's trespass cattle, though. I would like to assist. I like shooting stuff.

That one has not been resolved yet. I bet some of those jokers pointing rifles at BLM employees will be slowly arrested over the next 18 months.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Feb 3, 2016 - 01:27pm PT
Want to smoke pot, marry your cat, own a gun, start a new small business, send emails or surf the web in private? We are asked to prove why we need such dangerous freedoms.

What kind of cat?

Cougar. Duh!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 3, 2016 - 01:29pm PT
Bundy & Co. is a group who wants their version of freedom and control, shown through protest, occupying recognized federal buildings, backed up with the not-so-subtle threat of use of force.

The FBI is a well regulated police force, people already hired, by us, the citizens. They are a long recognized arm of the law, across the entire country, in population centers and rural areas. They are enforcing already established and accepted codes (by most citizens), backed up with a proven record of negotiation when possible, and use of force when necessary.

Bundy & Co. are not a well regulated militia.



Edit: In the future, this will be viewed as historical truth.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Feb 3, 2016 - 04:03pm PT
Bundy & Co. are not a well regulated militia.



Edit: In the future, this will be viewed as historical truth.

lol, they demonstrated that when they requested supplies. :)
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Feb 3, 2016 - 04:22pm PT
Here's an article that first appeared in Portland's Oregonian, and then was picked up by Idaho's largest newspaper.

I agree with the article.

The Oregonian, Portland

It turns out there’s been a true patriot in Harney County, Oregon, all along. His name is Dave Ward.

When the armed militants arrived and occupied the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters, they called themselves patriots and twisted a reading of the U.S. Constitution to suit their purposes. Among other things, they argued public lands never really belonged to all Americans and that the federal government had no legal standing to manage them.

But they should have had that conversation more fully with Ward, better known in Burns and around the county as Sheriff Dave, because it’s likely Ward could have set them straight — even though he’s no constitutional scholar and had, in a meeting before the occupation, told the self-proclaimed patriots their demands were entirely outside the law.

Ward revealed himself in 2014 in his application for the sheriff’s job. In it, he wrote: “I’ve spent many years of my life serving our country, stateside and abroad, to protect the Constitution and believe it is the sheriff’s responsibility to protect each person’s rights under the Constitution of the United States,” Les Zaitz of The Oregonian/OregonLive reported.

It’s the “each person’s rights” part that stands out. The rights of law-abiding citizens in Harney County and beyond were abridged through the month of January as the occupiers pled their hollow, dangerous case. Schools and roads were briefly closed. The peace was disturbed for weeks. And taxpayers are still paying hefty sums to law enforcement, working 24/7 under a difficult mandate in the face of armed occupiers: no bloodshed.

Few would be unmoved, then, when Ward appeared before reporters on Wednesday following the arrest of several ringleaders and the shooting death of one. The special agent in charge of the Federal Bureau of Investigation spoke. So did the U.S. Attorney. Their messages were measured, brief, purposeful. Ward, a solidly built fellow whose ruddy complexion seems wrought by high desert winds, fought back tears. He was the man who, against the feds’ advice, had taken a face-to-face meeting with ringleader Ammon Bundy to offer a peaceful exit from the compound. He was the man who not once issued a threat against the occupiers and had calmly told Zaitz: “We have to rely on what’s in the hearts of others.” But the apprehension of occupiers on Tuesday — a strategic victory that broke the occupation — had “ended badly,” Ward said, because rancher Robert “LaVoy” Finicum was shot dead.

Haltingly, Ward amplified his message and ended it ruefully: “This has been tearing our community apart. It’s time for everyone in this illegal occupation to move on. It doesn’t have to be bloodshed in our community. If we have issues with the way things are going in our government, we have a responsibility as citizens to act on them in an appropriate manner. We don’t arm up and rebel. ... This can’t happen anymore. This can’t happen in America. And it can’t happen in Harney County.” The room broke out in applause as Ward walked off.

Ward grew up in Drain, a tiny timber town near the Umpqua River, and as a boy would ride a horse into the woods and camp and fish. Following high school graduation, he joined the U.S. Army, trained as a combat medic and shipped out to Somalia. He did a tour in Afghanistan. All told, he performed a 21-year run of service comprising active duty, the Oregon Army National Guard and the Army Reserves. In between, he took a job in a mill in Drain but, boxed in by it, took a job as a ranch hand in Lake County, where years later he’d become a corrections deputy. Always he carried with him his churchgoing ways and other values of his upbringing, including respect for the foundations of government, among them the U.S. Constitution.

The refuge occupation will likely be remembered as a brief Sagebrush Rebellion reprise, replete with central casting cowboys who spoke in we’ll-die-if-we-must heroics. It should instead be remembered for its true patriot, the man who exuded calm and courage as he fought effectively for citizen rights made plain by the Constitution: Dave Ward

http://www.idahostatesman.com/opinion/article57868203.html
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Feb 3, 2016 - 04:26pm PT
"That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves."

-Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Feb 3, 2016 - 04:45pm PT
+1 Fritz!
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Feb 3, 2016 - 04:59pm PT
Thanks for that Fritz.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 3, 2016 - 07:27pm PT
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Feb 3, 2016 - 07:35pm PT
Fritz...Thanks for that..I'll read it later..rj
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 3, 2016 - 08:21pm PT
A grand jury brought back felony charges against the Bundy brothers and 9 others today, and the preliminary hearing was cancelled as a result.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/federal_grand_jury_returns_ind.html

The indictments will be unsealed tomorrow. It'll be interesting to see if additional charges were returned.

<edit> some later information hints at 16 indictments. I guess we'll find out tomorrow.
kattz

climber
Feb 3, 2016 - 08:26pm PT
"take Seattle. great place, I love it. but if they don't increase public transportation somehow, someway, it will turn into a big $hithole. that may mean that the government will have to try and buy some properties to build better mass transport. so while we switched the discussion from a rural area to an urban example, its still the same thing and things will happen."

Another example of what overpopulation and overcrowding does.

Sometimes one just has to let it go, though, and relocate. Nothing is forever. Seattle will become a $ithole with or without government taking eminent domain, transport, etc.

Recently watched new Leviathan movie, it was quite good...about private house/land confiscation for the benefit of the church, by the corrupt government official in Russia (the property owner resists and ends up very poorly). Some things are just hopeless and one has to let go, move away and forget, even thought you know this is injustice. Leviathan, you can't fight it.
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 3, 2016 - 08:51pm PT
Andrew Kohlmetz, an attorney for arrested protester Jason Patrick, referred to the holdouts as "four idiots" at odds with his client's aims.

And what did he refer to his client as?

overwatch

climber
Feb 3, 2016 - 10:42pm PT
Inmate?
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Feb 4, 2016 - 04:30am PT
A grand jury brought back felony charges...
Lynch the ranchers! Poetic justice!
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 4, 2016 - 06:19am PT
Great article, Fitch. In addition to the humanity of the situation, it points out that the brunt of the financial costs of this whole charade are not on the shoulders of some alien, totalitarian government but the taxpayers of Harney County.



The indictments will be unsealed tomorrow. It'll be interesting to see if additional charges were returned.

Dumbassery in the First Degree
Brandishing a Weapon while Deliberately Misinterpreting the Constitution
Improper Use of a Phallic Implement
Gross Negligence in Preparation for a Siege
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 4, 2016 - 06:41am PT

Escopeta. I am relieved to discover that you know everything and there is no need to provide a basis for any opinion so long as it is presented as fact.

In order to contribute meaningfully to the discussion you have to at least be well read enough to have a grasp of political thought and historical accounts dating back to a time prior to your own birth.

I'm sorry that you haven't reached the mental equivalent of "You must be this tall to ride".

Maybe you can bone up on your European history and be better prepared to discern the difference between opinion and things that actually happened.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 4, 2016 - 07:09am PT
Fat dad,

There's lots of things is your post that are worthy of a response, but this statement:

Laws are intended to provide boundries so we can govern our conduct.

Is the one that I would argue shows the challenges with our web of laws and legislation.

I'm of the opinion that laws should be general and abstract. More and more our web of laws is intended to direct and command specific actions or outcomes. (Admittedly, legislation is probably more an abuser of of this).

I also believe that laws should be well known and certain. Our citizens should be able to reasonably know in advance whether or not their actions comply with the law. We have such a ridiculous web of laws criminalizing so many things that people are felons on a regular basis and don't even know it. We should able to at least hold onto a little of the concept of mens rea

What we have today is increasingly nothing more than government by waiver whereby everything is outlawed and only the rich and powerful are able to escape the enforcement actions.

Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Feb 4, 2016 - 07:15am PT
Maybe you can bone up on your European history and be better prepared to discern the difference between opinion and things that actually happened.

Yes professor, I am sorry I doubted your authority which you have now clearly established. I will get to work on the assignment. BTW, what size hat do you wear?
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 4, 2016 - 07:23am PT

Dumbassery in the First Degree
Brandishing a Weapon while Deliberately Misinterpreting the Constitution
Improper Use of a Phallic Implement
Gross Negligence in Preparation for a Siege

That was a good one!
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Feb 4, 2016 - 07:36am PT
¿Hablas Español? Porque tú eres tonto. Serio gordo!
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Feb 4, 2016 - 07:43am PT
I'm of the opinion that laws should be general and abstract....I also believe that laws should be well known and certain.

Can you provide an example of a law that is general and abstract while at the same time being well known and certain? I'm having difficulty comprehending your meaning.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 4, 2016 - 07:44am PT
Escopeta posted
I'm of the opinion that laws should be general and abstract. More and more our web of laws is intended to direct and command specific actions or outcomes.


The more abstract the law is the more open to interpretation by a court it is and the more conflict people will have about what it means. Vague laws do not necessarily protect freedom, they just allow for more subjective reading. If you want laws to be less restrictive you're far better off making them narrow and specific. If you want to prevent certain types of people from purchasing guns, for instance, you're far better off writing a law that specifies who they are instead of one that states "people who demonstrate a lack of reasonable judgment shall be prohibited from possessing a firearm."

Additionally, "law" is not just what's written on the books it's what the established case law is. The more abstract the law, the more important the case law.


Escopeta posted
(Admittedly, legislation is probably more an abuser of of this).

Legislation is law...not sure what you mean by that. Who else would be writing direct and specific laws?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 4, 2016 - 08:55am PT

¿Hablas Español? Porque tú eres tonto. Serio gordo!

ir a acostarse
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 4, 2016 - 09:25am PT
What we have today is increasingly nothing more than government by waiver whereby everything is outlawed and only the rich and powerful are able to escape the enforcement actions
Esco

Wow
Where do you get this stuff?

I can tell you, Fear
Fear of the one thing you feel powerless against

All your anti-Gov. rhetoric is based on a Completely irrational fear

That's why you can't describe it, because it doesn't really exist.

I'm free as a bird, I have zero fear of my freedoms ever being taken away.
That is a rational person's reaction to the same Gov.


These right wing militias have the same problem, irrational fear of the one thing they feel completely powerless against, so what else can they do other than stock pile weapons and keep a lookout for the Feds that are sure to come and get em
WBraun

climber
Feb 4, 2016 - 09:29am PT
Craig Fry -- "I'm free as a bird, ..."

Even a bird's freedom is very limited.

Actually Craig you're not free at all ......
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 4, 2016 - 10:32am PT
Craig thinks the size of his aviary dictates his level of freedom.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Feb 4, 2016 - 10:45am PT
Whoa Whoa Whoa.... somebody called me?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 4, 2016 - 10:47am PT
Yeah, it's a Tabby cat.....
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Feb 4, 2016 - 10:55am PT
Even a bird's freedom is very limited.

Actually Craig you're not free at all ......

At least they are free to crap on what ever they want...

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Feb 4, 2016 - 11:17am PT
The latest Cliven Bundy video message is out:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 4, 2016 - 11:57am PT
Actually Craig you're not free at all ......

So..that begs the question: Are YOU free, Werner?
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Feb 4, 2016 - 12:09pm PT

Any news on the indictments yet?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 4, 2016 - 12:38pm PT
I'm of the opinion that laws should be general and abstract. More and more our web of laws is intended to direct and command specific actions or outcomes.

Terribly dangerous.

What this does is give all the power to those in power. If a law is general and abstract, then how do you know if you are violating it?

Your interpretation may be VERY different than the inspector, cop, or court. And remember that the officials are always believed more than the person.

Does an ordinance that states that the front yards of houses must be kept neat and clean mean that you cannot do car repairs in your driveway?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 4, 2016 - 12:46pm PT
Ordinance? We don't need no stinking ordinance!!

We need freedom gawdamnit!!

We've already shown we can handle unrestricted freedom. heh heh....


FREEEEEDOM!!!
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2016 - 01:56pm PT
The indictment was unsealed, the usual suspects plus the Fab Four currently occupying the refuge. The militia plans to spring the four idiots this weekend with a mass demonstration. I predict epic fail.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 4, 2016 - 02:00pm PT
Say - did I miss Escopeta's response to my question about how he and his clones were so deeply principled as to reject the one (or was it seven) trillion) dollar government bailout of Wall Street?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 4, 2016 - 05:55pm PT

Terribly dangerous.

What this does is give all the power to those in power. If a law is general and abstract, then how do you know if you are violating it?

Your interpretation may be VERY different than the inspector, cop, or court. And remember that the officials are always believed more than the person.

Does an ordinance that states that the front yards of houses must be kept neat and clean mean that you cannot do car repairs in your driveway?

I just wanted to paste this as a monument of something written by a person that a few pages back was waxing poetic about how free he is and how much his freedom has expanded in his lifetime. Carry on, comrade.

Happiegirl, stand by, I'm working/traveling
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 4, 2016 - 06:32pm PT
I guess the only freedom Escopeta believes in is the freedom of the 1%ers to steal all of the cash from the remaining 99% of the population.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Feb 4, 2016 - 06:35pm PT
He is more free Ron.
It's your stupid ideas of abstract and vague laws that would make him/all less free.
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 4, 2016 - 06:54pm PT
El Chapo si, milicia no, puto!

I am proposing that some of these "kkkowboys" invade some of his tunnels and see how long that lasts.

GuapoVino

climber
Feb 4, 2016 - 07:18pm PT
Check this out. Cliven "let me tell you another thing about the negro" Bundy sends this certified letter to the local sheriff informing him that he intends to retain posession of the refuge.

zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 4, 2016 - 08:07pm PT
Amazon now delivering alcohol in San Diego

Can Oregon be far behind.

And bullets - no problemo, puto.

Weed and dildos can't be far behind.

kattz

climber
Feb 4, 2016 - 10:57pm PT
Bundy and Co. are not about "freedom" for anyone by themselves.

Occupying public lands isn't their only conviction, they got plenty of totalitarian views and extremely hateful views, as evidenced by the poison their supporters habitually spew (hint: what do they think about rights of women, rights of minorities? No freedom for these! "Might is right" is their only idea of "freedom") No thanks.

Old Bundy's facebook is looking more and more like a looney house bulletin by the day.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 4, 2016 - 11:47pm PT
Oh, jeez.

I just got my biennial jury duty notice.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 5, 2016 - 12:04am PT
Lorenzo, just show up for yer jury selection wearing a Bundy button, you'll be home for lunch.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 5, 2016 - 06:15am PT
I bet that the notary got a chuckle when she signed that document from Bundy.

Notary's really have only one function. Yes, they say that it was this person on this day signing this document, but the document would still have the same force and effect without the notary.

You need a notary's signature to file anything in the County Clerk's office, in whatever area that the land lies. You need a notary to file in the courthouse. That's it. Your bank will do it for free.

Their signature has no real meaning, although I'm sure that there have been lawsuits over who signed a deed or other instrument.
franky

Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
Feb 5, 2016 - 06:32am PT
Wrong Base,

The Kings Land Reconciliation and Disbursement Act of 1586 set the precedent that empowered the vassal of the state with the power of ad susceptum perficiendum only if a King's notary made his mark on the document of reproach.

The only judge empowered by We The People, Bruce Doucette, has determined that this is indeed the law. By the transitory theory of law supported by Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson in document #283.

If you've never heard of any of this, you are a lamb of the totalitarian state that our once great nation has become. WAKE UP!
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 5, 2016 - 07:07am PT
Happiegrl,

The essence of my advocating for abstract and general laws lies in things that we learned probably before kindergarten.

Don't hit other people.
Don't take other people's stuff
Keep your promises.

The essence is that the laws should be there to protect people's rights (physical, property and contracts in order of above) Those rights are there as a matter of course, just as our constitution assumes, and the laws are there to protect our rights.

While maybe not the best example, one that many of us might relate to is in the case of forest fires. The modern approach to keeping people from burning down a forest for example is to weave a web of laws designed to orchestrate the outcome of not burning down the forest. Don't do this, don't do that. Aka: fireworks are outlawed, no campfires, you are required to have spark arresters, steel jacketed bullets are outlawed, climbing gear must be dipped in anti-static coating and so and so forth. The end game, which we are actually starting to see in some cases of society is that virtually everything gets outlawed in an effort to achieve some specific outcome.

I would argue that protecting property and making the act of burning someone else's property illegal is sufficient and crime and punishment works from there for any person that deviates.

That model allows for people to live their lives with maximum freedom but still protects the so-called "life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness" of others.

Perhaps most important is that everyone knows the boundaries and consequences. I find it beyond reproach that our government is incapable of telling you everything that is or is not a crime yet can hold you criminally responsible for unknowingly running afoul of some random ordinance.

The typical response is "but what about stop signs and speed limits" and such nonsense. I take no issue with orderly execution of society in that manner, but I do indeed take issue with the side effect of prosecuting victimless crimes and funding the road piracy that is our current policing of things like transportation. For a separate discussion indeed.

The basis tenet is that I believe that if you protect people's "person, property and contractual obligations" then social order is derived from the freedom to live your life how you see fit vs being told what outcome is desired by someone other than you.

How could we possibly get there from here? Well, I know that when my boat is sinking I try to fix the leak before I focus on bailing the water. How about we take the first step and stop the madness and work from there.


EDIT: replaced happiness with contractual obligations. Happiness was a typo of sorts that I didn't intend to use.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Feb 5, 2016 - 07:10am PT
I'm well aware of that mister brennan, please explain that to Ron who thinks these types of laws are needed. I think abstract and vague laws make us less free, as I stated above and you can reread now, still from my former post.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Feb 5, 2016 - 08:13am PT

This morning's paper reported that the remaining four holdouts
have also been indicted. No more snacks for them.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 5, 2016 - 08:20am PT
The Y'allqueda affiliates Inc. And Co. are planning a big non violent March to FREE THE FAB FOUR without charges tomorrow though. Should grab some headlines, which is what they're all about these days.

Interesting stat: Friends of Malheur FB page has 4,600 likes and Bundy Ranch FB page has over 173,000.....
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 5, 2016 - 09:00am PT
Interesting fact...

Each time the yeehawdists have called for "Thousands" to assemble, they've gotten closer to 100.

The last time, locals outnumbered them 4 to 1.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Feb 5, 2016 - 09:04am PT

Don't hit other people.
Don't take other people's stuff
Keep your promises.

This is the law of common sense, which applies in the court of spirituality. Unfortunately, that doesn't much help when it comes to people who don't have those basic tenets in their life, or do at times and others not.

dirtbag

climber
Feb 5, 2016 - 09:05am PT
If I was a blm or forest service employee working in remote locations I would not feel safe.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Feb 5, 2016 - 09:12am PT
Happiegrrl2: I do agree with your thoughts on Escopet's reply to your question.

Escopeta? In your reply, you also mention:

While maybe not the best example, one that many of us might relate to is in the case of forest fires. The modern approach to keeping people from burning down a forest for example is to weave a web of laws designed to orchestrate the outcome of not burning down the forest. Don't do this, don't do that. Aka: fireworks are outlawed, no campfires, you are required to have spark arresters, steel jacketed bullets are outlawed, climbing gear must be dipped in anti-static coating and so and so forth. The end game, which we are actually starting to see in some cases of society is that virtually everything gets outlawed in an effort to achieve some specific outcome.

I appreciate your addition of anti-static climbing gear is just a little humour, but you are apparently thinking of all those other anti-wildfire laws as un-needed for yourself & your intelligent peers. I do think those onerous regulations are needed for all the idiots that would otherwise cluelessly start fires.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 5, 2016 - 09:25am PT
Statement from Oregon Sheriffs Association


Sheriffs in all 36 Oregon counties have taken an oath to support the Constitution of the United States, the Constitution of Oregon, and the laws thereof. Our oath is our pledge to you, to be conservators of the peace for our citizens, while being respectful of the rights afforded to all of us under the Constitution.
What a great state and nation we live in that allows everyone to express their opinion, hold a sign in protest, lobby for change and live free without fear of retaliation from the government. Our founding fathers created a system of government consisting of three branches: legislative, judicial and executive.
Sheriffs and Sheriff's Offices are part of the executive branch, charged with enforcement of laws as directed by the legislative branch and interpreted by the judicial branch. Under our system of government, the judicial branch is given the authority to interpret the Constitutionality of our laws.
We are a nation of laws, and the executive branch cannot override the laws passed by the legislative branch, nor can we ignore the clear guidance of the judicial branch. There is a process for changing the laws of our great nation and for amending our Constitution, and that process does not involve the armed takeover of government facilities and disruption of an entire community.
We fully support the expression of political opinions, and advocating for change within the legal system – that is what sets our country apart from developing countries where the government is changed by an armed takeover.
Recently, men and women have broken the law and encouraged others to take up arms against our local and federal governments. These individuals have used firearms and their interpretation of the Constitution to justify their criminal behavior. These militia men and women have broken into publicly owned buildings, disrespected Native American heritage and intimidated and harassed local residents and officials.
These men and women are asking for change, and we support their right to challenge our government to make change. However, we do not agree with or support any citizen or elected official who would advocate for change in a manner that includes illegal action, threats of violence, or violence against any citizen of the United States.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 5, 2016 - 09:28am PT
This is the law of common sense, which applies in the court of spirituality. Unfortunately, that doesn't much help when it comes to people who don't have those basic tenets in their life, or do at times and others not.

I'm not talking about the court of spirituality. I'm talking about codifying it in the court of law and prosecuting in keeping with that.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 5, 2016 - 09:29am PT
Escopeta posted
The typical response is "but what about stop signs and speed limits" and such nonsense.

Libertarianism has a hard time dealing with the banality of real life.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 5, 2016 - 09:36am PT
I appreciate your addition of anti-static climbing gear is just a little humour, but you are apparently thinking of all those other anti-wildfire laws as un-needed for yourself & your intelligent peers. I do think those onerous regulations are needed for all the idiots that would otherwise cluelessly start fires.

All the more reason to make it clear. I contend that a web of hopelessly confusing laws that leaves everyone's freedom snuffed out while trying to engineer some specific outcome is worse than a simple law stating its illegal to burn other people's property.

Arguing that people are too stupid to follow a basic law as an excuse to make it more complex and liberty-restricting for everyone else is not agreeable to me.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Feb 5, 2016 - 09:36am PT
Escopeta is showing the feebleness of his philosophy. Weak.
If you can't follow a thought to its logical outcome then maybe you shouldn't talk so much.

Um, can I burn tires in my yard?
Can I raise dogs for food?
Can I dispose of my batteries in the lake?

Think more. Spew less.

( your constant confusion might be a sign that you're not as smart as you pretend.)
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 5, 2016 - 09:36am PT
Don't hit people

So what qualifies as a "hit?"

Does a slap count?

What if you get hit more than once?

What if you hit someone with a gun? Or a bullet?

What are the punishments?

Who gets to decide? The person who was hit?


Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 5, 2016 - 09:47am PT

So what qualifies as a "hit?"

Does a slap count?

What if you get hit more than once?

What if you hit someone with a gun? Or a bullet?

What are the punishments?

Who gets to decide? The person who was hit?


The court still handles that just as they do today. But having a bunch of laws that makes it illegal for people to make a fist, or swing their arms around in an effort to engineer out the possibility of people getting hit only serves to limit the actions of free people and not reduce the amount of people that get hit.

Edit: Furthermore, to follow that to its logical end, when you find yourself flailing on a climb and your arm swings around with a fist, you are now a criminal. It's only up to the powers that be to decide if they want to arrest you for the victimless crime that violated no ones rights. Hope you have money for the payola. For a bunch of people that despise how the rich have all the advantages, you sure fight awful hard at setting up a system that ensures their dominance.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Feb 5, 2016 - 09:51am PT
Blah blah blah. You make proclamations based on a foundation of ignorance. You seem unable to learn but instead lean on your own confusion.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 5, 2016 - 10:00am PT
Flip flop,

I think your talents are needed over on the pole smoker thread.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Feb 5, 2016 - 10:01am PT
franky, interesting post. Did you get that from admiralty court case law? :-)
dirtbag

climber
Feb 5, 2016 - 10:04am PT
I deal with vague and not so vague laws all day. It's a constant tension, with no cookie cutter solutions as to which is better. Many laws are vague that were meant to be specific: only through implementation are problems revealed.

Vagueness allows flexibility, true, but the main problem with vague laws is that they are often unenforceable. How can you put someone in jail for something when it isn't spelled out exactly what the violation is? Or, if no one can agree what the violation is?

Law Enforcement has this problem all the time. Defendants will point out ambiguity in a law and bam, the case gets dropped.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 5, 2016 - 10:05am PT
Escopeta posted
The basis tenet is that I believe that if you protect people's "person, property and happiness" then social order is derived from the freedom to live your life how you see fit vs being told what outcome is desired by someone other than you.

Again, the problem here is that you live a relatively privileged life compared to many others in this country and many of the laws that you think are prohibitive were created to protect those less advantaged people. Many of the others were made to protect "person, property and happiness" but you usually can't protect one person's happiness without stepping on another's. That's why we created representative government to try to ameliorate those conflicts with the least amount of authoritarianism.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 5, 2016 - 10:15am PT
Come on Esco
you should be able to explain it better than that
Try harder, please

I'm still not getting it, I am more free w/out the Government that protects ME????

What if I go to Somalia, and their Gov. doesn't protect me and I get eaten by roaming hoards of wild dogs, or shot by some punk kid, since everyone has to carry guns to protect themselves from each other

You call that Freedom?

That is what you're telling us.
Maybe that's what you want, the rest of don't want that type of freedom.

Conclusion, failed libertarian ideology based on fear
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 5, 2016 - 10:17am PT
Pete the freedom fighter backing down the scary FBI agents.


HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 5, 2016 - 10:18am PT
Craig- That is a certain type of freedom, yes. I think as climbers we can all relate to the freedom to be able to risk ones life and wellness against a challenge. It stops being freedom when it's now longer a choice, in my opinion.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 5, 2016 - 10:24am PT
Apologies. Happiness was absolutely not the word I had intended. Wasn't intended and I missed it on my proof read. I have edited the initial post with notation. Thanks.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Feb 5, 2016 - 10:25am PT
By extension of Estupido's thinking, he should be allowed to play with fireworks during high fire danger. Laws are in place to protect us from dimwits.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 5, 2016 - 10:28am PT
Flip Flop, you're wrong, that falls under don't burn other peoples stuff.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 5, 2016 - 10:29am PT
I'm still not getting it, I am more free w/out the Government that protects ME????

If you have subcontracted your personal protection out to the government, you are inherently not free.

No where have I said that freedom is a panacea for any threat you might encounter in life.

Only that it's more free. As I said before, the size of your cage doesn't dictate the amount of freedom you enjoy.


Edit: added the word personal to further delineate the difference between personal protection and protection of the country.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Feb 5, 2016 - 10:43am PT
Estupido writes

While maybe not the best example, one that many of us might relate to is in the case of forest fires. The modern approach to keeping people from burning down a forest for example is to weave a web of laws designed to orchestrate the outcome of not burning down the forest. Don't do this, don't do that. Aka: fireworks are outlawed, no campfires, you are required to have spark arresters, steel jacketed bullets are outlawed, climbing gear must be dipped in anti-static coating and so and so forth. The end game, which we are actually starting to see in some cases of society is that virtually everything gets outlawed in an effort to achieve some specific outcome.

How am I wrong again?

And then he writes:

If you have subcontracted your personal protection out to the government, you are inherently not free.

I'm free to not have to enforce laws myself. Estupido cannot help but make stupid proclamations.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 5, 2016 - 10:44am PT
Craig,

If you will remember from an earlier post, I stated quite matter of factly that where there is no law, there is no freedom.

So no, since there is no law or functioning legal or court system (presumably as I haven't visited Somalia) that is not freedom, that is anarchy.

Which I am not advocating for despite your repeated attempts to imply just that. Is that because you can't formulate a logical response?
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Feb 5, 2016 - 10:48am PT
Estupidisms

Only that it's more free. As I said before, the size of your cage doesn't dictate the amount of freedom
franky

Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
Feb 5, 2016 - 10:58am PT
Of course Gary. Admiralty court obviously holds jurisdiction in all areas where flags have gold fringe. You need to know your rights if you are going to take up arms to defend them!
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Feb 5, 2016 - 12:12pm PT
Is there a 'free-er' person than an American male??
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Feb 5, 2016 - 12:28pm PT
Estupidisms


Only that it's more free. As I said before, the size of your cage doesn't dictate the amount of freedom


Ahhh yes... the name-calling begins!

Escopeta is making a lot of sense.

A lot of what he(or she?) argues for I agree with, however not in the context of this odd group of people with the bird-sanctuary "takeover" thing.... I think that detracts from his/her observations.

Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Feb 5, 2016 - 12:34pm PT
A few years old but a very spot on and funny video. (Please note that "funny" is simply my personal, biased, unfounded opinions so no need to get your shorts all in a bind).

"Libertarian magic dust!"


[Click to View YouTube Video]
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 5, 2016 - 01:02pm PT
FLIP-FLOP said: No coincidence that the abrasive escopeta is rich. The typical a-hole factor in american wealth.

I forgot about this one. Are you not rich?
Heisenberg

Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
Feb 5, 2016 - 03:52pm PT
^^ Brook is referring to himself as a A-hole and abrasive.
He WAS rich once.....
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 5, 2016 - 03:58pm PT
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Feb 5, 2016 - 03:58pm PT
Banquo! That freedom in Somalia video is some funny schist!

Thanks!
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 5, 2016 - 04:19pm PT
Escopeta: such a waste of an apparently intelligent human brain.

You still conveniently ignore the (and this all depends on how you crunch the numbers) 1 - 29 TRILLION DOLLARS you and your 1%er clones have stolen from the other 99% of U.S. taxpayers.

But let's put that aside, since I have no doubt you will, who do you expect to show up if your house is on fire, or the U.S. goes to war?

It sure the hell isn't going to be you or the clique of entitlement junkies that you belong to.

Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 5, 2016 - 04:42pm PT
Stewart,

If you are so butt hurt by the rich getting richer, why are you enabling it?

So many of the things that you advocate for that are intended to protect the supposed less fortunate, have proven to have the exact opposite effect.

Whether its economically, socially, or legally, all of the polices you espouse to lift up the underprivileged are ultimately funneled to the rich because you can't legislate equality.

The more power you give to the government equates to the more power you give to the rich. Because they are the one's that can control, or buy, the necessary policies to ensure their survival. That will ALWAYS be the case. Do you truly believe that, say, the Democrats are committed to lifting up people? How deluded do you have to be to believe that?

Freedom is the great equalizer, not government or wealth re-distribution plans. Why double-down on dumb?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 5, 2016 - 04:47pm PT
I'm thinkin' Elfont
Norton

Social climber
Feb 5, 2016 - 04:51pm PT
I'm thinkin' Elfont

yeah, for a brief time I kind of thought it was Jeff too

but this one has a higher intellect but combined with a similar naive certainty/arrogance

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 5, 2016 - 05:06pm PT
I think he is just another climber that has very strong opinions
like the madbolter
Of course he thinks all his opinions and solutions to the problems are completely valid, but the confusing babble never provides an answer to how it would work in the real world

Most of us disagree with him
So he should keep trying

Maybe Esco and Largo will someday find a way to educate us about something that no one can describe


and he keeps the insults to a minimum.....
which is nice

and I will eat a crow if it turns out he/she has duped us all
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Feb 5, 2016 - 05:08pm PT
Heisenberg, I can't wait for your two minutes of fame.

Estupido, your version of freedom is called "the rule of force." Nothing more.
Heisenberg

Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
Feb 5, 2016 - 05:26pm PT
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe

Feb 5, 2016 - 05:08pm PT
Heisenberg, I can't wait for your two minutes of fame.

whats my 2 minutes of fame?

You got yours as a pole smoker at the BOTTOM of the list Brook.!!
But your more like a 2 seconds of fame kinda dude aint ya?
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Feb 5, 2016 - 05:49pm PT
Keep talking pussy.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Feb 5, 2016 - 05:57pm PT
I'm gay so what? And I can feed you your teeth.



Heisenberg

Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere

Jan 26, 2016 - 06:22pm PT
actually maybe your kid should just end up paralyzed. after some drunk driver plows into him in a school crossing.
I don't jump. Your just a sh#t clown.
Maybe he could be kidnapped. They would be better parents than you would.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 5, 2016 - 06:09pm PT
Bundy's legal team ( Arnold Law firm) went to the refuge during the occupation, gave Bundy a list of laws they were breaking and may have counseled them on the best methods to use.

Lawyers claim the visit was pro bono.

It also appears the Bundys pushed off some of the law breaking to younger and less prominent occupiers to shield themselves.

http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/legal-ethics-ammon-bundy-lawyer-oregon-refuge-occupation/
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 5, 2016 - 06:16pm PT
Good Read moosedrool

If you read his book, and liked it. You might like some of Hayek's stuff that was written about the same period from the perspective of an intellectuals viewpoint from inside Gernmany at the time.
overwatch

climber
Feb 5, 2016 - 06:23pm PT
I'm gay so what? And I can feed you your teeth.

ITG's occasionally come up with good ones.
Heisenberg

Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
Feb 5, 2016 - 06:26pm PT
Brook has a history of threatening people with physical violence
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 5, 2016 - 06:27pm PT
Oath keepers weren't down with the Bundy strategy.

https://www.oathkeepers.org/oregon-standoff-a-terrible-plan-that-we-might-be-stuck-with/


Why is there a pic of Public Image?
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 5, 2016 - 06:34pm PT
The government damn well CAN legislate equality.

The difficult part begins when you enforce these laws, because those who benefit from the status quo aren't beyond the use of violence to defend their selfish interests . In the early '60s, when civil rights laws were finally enforced in the U.S., black people could actually get into previously all-white post-secondary institutions and even drink at the same water fountains and eat in the same restaurants. They actually had access to civil rights, and could legally compel the Federal Government to enforce them. Good people died standing up for these rights, and they continue to die to this day, but their oppressors now face Federal prosecution.

Government once more clearly represented the will of the people - that is, until Reagan and his handlers unleashed a war upon the middle class and, among other outrages, successfully managed to terrorize organized labour into passivity. This evil rule by the wealthy to the detriment of average citizens continues to this day.

Since the election of this monster, nearly two generations of U.S. citizens have reached adulthood without access to what was once the American Dream - namely a secure job and a house that they could actually afford to buy.

Your sweeping dismissal of any hope for a better world is quite impressive, but pretty well every other advanced industrialized democracy on the planet treats its citizens with more respect.

I find it disgusting that you are so pleased with the plunder of the wealth of the U.S. by the few to be so easily justifiable.It is never too late for an informed electorate to elect people of integrity to run the democracy that so many have died to attain, and the survival of civilization itself depends upon a government that represents the will of the masses - not a dystopia ruled by a small mob of greed-crazed plutocrats

In the words of Abraham Lincoln::

Corporations have been enthroned, and an era of corruption in high places will follow...

It is never too late to stand up and fight for a better world.

wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Feb 5, 2016 - 06:46pm PT
Great post Stewart.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 5, 2016 - 06:47pm PT
Stewart,

You have been duped into fighting for a cause that plays right into the hands of the rich and powerful.

In truth, I would rather die free than rich. But I'll take rich as a consolation prize so, by all means, carry on.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 5, 2016 - 06:55pm PT

Esco
Feb 5, 2016 - 06:47pm PT
Stewart,
You have been duped into fighting for a cause that plays right into the hands of the rich and powerful.

In truth, I would rather die free than rich. But I'll take rich as a consolation prize so, by all means, carry on

Are you sure about who is duped and who isn't..

Being a skeptic, you will have to show me some very solid proof that I'm duped by the rich and powerful

please lay it on me
until then....
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Feb 5, 2016 - 06:57pm PT
Die free...Now there's an oxymoron...
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 5, 2016 - 07:31pm PT
Craig,

Anyone that thinks a benevolent government is going to look out for their best interests gets what they ask for.

I'm pulling for you, I'm sure you're right, the career politicians looking to expand government into every nook and cranny of your life only do it out of the kindness of their heart and with the best intentions.

rincon

climber
Coarsegold
Feb 5, 2016 - 07:31pm PT
I think he is just another climber that has very strong opinions
like the madbolter

^^Nailed it.

I know who Escopeta is, and he's a real person. Not LEB, Fattrad, Ron, or anyone else who's been banned. Ya'll would really like him if you met him in person. And nobody builds a better campfire than The Dude. Hi Bryan!

Rob Brown

Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 5, 2016 - 07:53pm PT
Escopeta: How's the view from your ivory tower?

I'd sooner give my life to protect a benevolent government against a mob of racist, greed-crazed lunatics any day. That's what 55 million people gave their lives for in WW II, including several hundred thousand of the best and brightest of your countrymen.

Keep counting your money and spouting crap about a freedom that is only available to the sociopathic plutocrats of this planet.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 5, 2016 - 07:59pm PT
I'd sooner give my life to protect a benevolent government against a mob of racist, greed-crazed lunatics any day. That's what 55 million people gave their lives for in WW II, including several hundred thousand of the best and brightest of your countrymen.

Stewart,

I want to make sure I understood your comment prior to commenting. Did you just say that several hundred thousand of our countrymen gave their life to protect our benevolent government in WWII?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 5, 2016 - 08:04pm PT
Rob Brown!!!! My man. Its good to see you typing. And climbing again I presume. KS has my info.

We all need a reunion......there's going to be some space freeing up in Burns Oregon I hear that would be perfect. Oh, wait. Nevermind. Lol.

Idaho is VERY nice in the spring and I present an even more formidable belay counterweight than ever before! Bring Jan and his fly rod.

You forgot about the French toast. I'll bring it. Lol
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Feb 5, 2016 - 09:02pm PT
I'm gay so what? And I can feed you your teeth.

Thats so close to what we kid about on the job site.
Someone would get all huffy and we'd say,

Don't let 1 second of courage lead to picking up your teeth with 2 broken arms.


Sure miss the fun times of BS'ing on the job with some hard working bros.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 5, 2016 - 09:16pm PT
Escopeta: I wish you'd stop being so condescending as to accuse those who find your views to be repellent of being "dupes". I'm quite happy with my ability to differentiate between what is and what should be.

In answer to your question - you bet. Did they teach you anything about the Great Depression? Have you seen newsreel footage of the reaction of the U.S. public to the death of Roosevelt?

Comment as you see fit.

I'm sure sorry that you haven't developed the character to use your brain to help repair the damage that has been done to Democracy in the U.S. instead of working to destroy it.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Feb 5, 2016 - 09:54pm PT
Anyone that thinks a benevolent government is going to look out for their best interests gets what they ask for.

Right on. The Invisible Hand is our only friend.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 6, 2016 - 05:29am PT
So....

Stewart posted this:
Escopeta: I wish you'd stop being so condescending as to accuse those who find your views to be repellent of being "dupes".

Then in the same post. Very same post, said this:
I'm sure sorry that you haven't developed the character to use your brain to help repair the damage that has been done to Democracy in the U.S. instead of working to destroy it.

And I went back to his postings and pulled these greatest hits of the last, what...week or so:

Escopeta: How's the view from your ivory tower?

Escopeta: such a waste of an apparently intelligent human brain.

pyro: You never fail to amaze me. Whenever I figure you've cranked out the most juvenile and offensive comments I've ever seen on Supertopo, you manage to surpass your previous achievement.

rick sumner: It's spelled "xenophobe", and I don't have an ideology - I just don't like aszholes, particularly those who seek the leadership of world powers who abuse their own ideological agendas to kill people and line their own pockets.

Stewart, your hypocrisy is not a defense against someone presenting views that you can't counter with anything but emotion.
overwatch

climber
Feb 6, 2016 - 06:34am PT
Don't let 1 second of courage lead to picking up your teeth with 2 broken arms.

Heard that one before, another good one. I liked "the talking part is done" because I actually wanted to fight.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Feb 6, 2016 - 08:26am PT
Oh fer kerist's sake...

The Malheur stand-off is pizzling down so now we're stoking the embers from the flare-up here? We need a term for this - something like as "Armchair Mountaineering."

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 6, 2016 - 10:09am PT
It's time to bust out the coveted Supertopo War Fighter Medal!!


Bill Mc Kirgan

Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Feb 6, 2016 - 10:53am PT

Things are getting pretty dicey here
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 6, 2016 - 11:38am PT
Militia backs down, billboards go up in support of law enforcement.

Thousands marching to escort the Fab Four out of refuge. Dropped.



http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/militia_group_backs_down_billb.html#incart_river_index





“It needs to be very clear that these buildings will never, ever return to the federal government,” said LaVoy Finicum, one of the leaders of the armed occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Feb 6, 2016 - 11:44am PT
The Malheur stand-off is pizzling down so now we're stoking the embers from the flare-up here?

This has become the Escopeta thread of unfounded opinions, knee jerking self defense and hard blowing (and that's just me). It has therefore become irrelevant (in my nonobjective opinion) to the thread topic.

I have no doubt that Escopeda is a very interesting and charismatic guy in person but I find him otherwise here.

Hey, I have a good idea, lets start a new thread about climbing.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 6, 2016 - 02:42pm PT
Escopeta: Great job of cherry picking my posts. Perhaps since you're such a dispassionate seeker of the truth, next time you could take the trouble to post some of the comments from those poor innocent people that I've been so mean to.

Yeah - I tend to get pissed off when I take the trouble to post verifiable information or considered opinions which get ignored &/or elicit nothing beyond an insulting reply. Pyro is pretty well at the top of my list, since I'm still waiting for him to at least ONCE post a response that would be considered a the kind of comment that could rationally be expected to originate from an adult.

My comments that are aimed in your direction are fair observations considering the opinions you espouse.

And, yes, referring to you as you condescending is a perfectly reasonable statement.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Feb 6, 2016 - 04:20pm PT
Also in the same article Survival referenced, is this quote:

A militia group that had previously converged on Burns by the dozens had planned to shake things up Saturday, but backed down.

A Facebook post of BJ Soper, a founding member of the Pacific Patriots Network, said the group was going to escort the holdouts from the refuge. But Soper learned that the occupiers said they were resigned to die and that attempts to remove them would be met by force.

Soper said he didn't want to put the volunteers in harm's way.


If the four losers remaining at the refuge have decided to become martyrs for the cause, they can join the legion of the stupid & dead. I would much rather see them arrested, thrown in jail, worked through the courts, and serve time; but revolutionaries do have a special zeal for dying pointlessly.









survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 6, 2016 - 04:47pm PT
When they run out of snacks in a month, dying for the cause may seem less attractive. That's my guess.
Norton

Social climber
Feb 6, 2016 - 04:57pm PT
anyone know if they shut off the heat, water, electricity at the building?

Little Debbie snacks still holding out?
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 6, 2016 - 05:29pm PT
James Brennan: Since you were too dumb to understand the earlier lengthy explanation I provided at the time, I'll give you the short version. Let me know if any of the words are too big for you:

We were fully qualified for membership in the union that was on strike. We were neither warned of the upcoming labour disruption (in which case I might have considered calling in sick) nor were we offered the opportunity to join the union. We would have been fired if we refused to cross the line, and would not have qualified for unemployment benefits or even welfare.

If that strikes you as unreasonable behaviour or the slightest crime against the working class, then go piss up a rope, jerk.

P.S.: I haven't the faintest idea where your palsied brain got the idea I was working as management at the time.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 6, 2016 - 06:25pm PT
James Brennan: At least I'm not delusional.

The facts exist as I FIRST stated (and then repeated) them. I haven't the faintest idea what on earth you are talking about.

Please try to stay in at least occasional contact with reality.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 6, 2016 - 07:03pm PT
It's starting to sound like Stewart isn't as different form the Matheus Occupiers after all. He's willing to make a stand but when the rubber meets the road he will back out and crawfish the fellow man to get his own ends.

Interesting.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Feb 6, 2016 - 07:22pm PT
Escopet! Re your post:

---like Stewart isn't as different form the Matheus Occupiers after all. He's willing to make a stand but when the rubber meets the road he will back out and crawfish the fellow man to get his own ends.

I like you more when you start making misspellings & typos. Have another drink & post some more. We have a place for you on the Friday Night Posting While Drunk Thread too!
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 6, 2016 - 07:36pm PT
Yeah, the dreaded iphone auto correct. Sorry to disappoint you. I don't drink and I certainly don't do drugs. So you won't find me on that thread.

But you're welcome though, since I still fight for your right to get drunk and high even though I find it personally offensive.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Feb 6, 2016 - 07:44pm PT
Escopeta! I also support your right to be sober & drug free.

A friend of mine used to be married to a woman who was sober & drug free, or at least that's what she believed, after waking up from her frequent binges.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 6, 2016 - 07:49pm PT
That's awful. Too bad for her.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 6, 2016 - 08:00pm PT
James Brennan: Are you retarded?

Any responsible labour union is aware that that there is a difference between workers crossing a picket line to fill jobs that are performed by union employees and those who are working on jobs that were performed by non-union labour both before and after the strike.

Responsible unions aren't so STUPID as to expect non-union members who have been refused membership in their labour organization to happily starve themselves to death so that they can get a pay increase.

Oh, and the poor guys on strike who wouldn't let us join their union already made more money than us and had a job to return to regardless of how the strike worked out.

I fully support the right of unions to organize and bargain for better wages and benefits. Unfortunately, some of these organizations are unions in name only - like the one we were dealing with.

I do not support anyone, union or management, who expects a complete stranger to impoverish themselves without at least attempting to offer them an inducement to do so, which in this case would have been membership in the union.

Escopeta: What a breathtakingly ignorant comment. Those heavily armed thugs who took over a Federally owned refuge committed criminal acts against land owned by the citizens of the U.S. - or, more accurately, the Paiutes. They deserved everything that happened to them.

Not one single person was harmed or inconvenienced by our behaviour, and not one single responsible union supporter could possibly justify expecting us to lose our jobs under those circumstances. The purpose of organized labour is among other things, to organize the unorganized. We were not permitted that opportunity.

I proudly stand by my actions and see no hypocrisy in my actions.

Oh - Escopeta: I am willing to stand by my beliefs - On one of many demonstrations I participated in, I was among a small group of peace demonstrators who held our ground (after the others had fled) when we had three fully charged fire hoses pointed at us. Fortunately for us, the authorities finally decided to adopt less brutal tactics to end the confrontation.

Don't you dare accuse me of being unwilling to defend the principles that I live by.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Feb 6, 2016 - 08:03pm PT
The Oregonian newspaper reports:

Oregon standoff: LaVoy Finicum memorial torn down and rebuilt

Finicum mourners erected a roadside attraction where he committed suicide by cop.

The locals tore it down, but the CowQuida sympathizers have restored it.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/oregon_standoff_lavoy_finicum.html#incart_story_package

I strongly suspect it will not remain as an Oregon roadside attraction.



rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Feb 6, 2016 - 08:25pm PT
Fritz...The memorial was torn down...? You working the adopt a highway section north of Burns...?
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Feb 6, 2016 - 08:54pm PT
rottingjohnny! I did work overtime for a few years to clean up small boxes full of Christian literature that were wired to Idaho Historical markers around Choss Creek. After 3 years & about 20 removed boxes, the Christian Box dude finally gave up on Choss Creek, as a good place to leave literature.

Not that I'm oppossed to good Christian road-side shrines.


I just don't think terrorists deserve one.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 6, 2016 - 09:22pm PT
James Brennan: You pathetic idiot!

At no time did I EVER say that. Are you drunk? At NO time did I ever state that I was management. I was a construction labourer at the work site when this happened.

You owe me yet another apology, you bloody fool.
franky

Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
Feb 6, 2016 - 09:28pm PT
This thread took a weird turn somewhere back.

Not quite as weird as that time a bunch of loonies decided to take over a Fish and Wildlife Service refuge because they were mad at the BLM. Some will say they didn't accomplish much, but assembling the largest collection of dildos and lube that Harney County, OR has ever seen is not an insignificant thing.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 6, 2016 - 10:27pm PT
James Brennan: What in the HELL are you talking about? I clearly explained what happened TWICE and you're still too dumb to accept reality.

I have not misrepresented a damn thing I said, and I would admit it if I had.

You're welcome to misrepresent the truth any way you like, but try it on someone else.

AND

By the way, you don't know what the hell you're talking about even with your comments about closed shops. To explain what a double moron you are, here's how it worked in the only closed shop I was extremely familiar with - the BCGEU:

Prior to it becoming certified as a union in (if my memory serves me correctly) 1974, membership was voluntary, and under something called the Rand Formula, those who had elected not to become members were permitted to continue to opt out of union membership.

AFTER the union was certified, new employees who became a part of the bargaining unit were required to join the union as a condition of employment, which when you think about it, it isn't a terrible deal what with the wages and benefits.

IDIOT. Twice.

EDIT:

franky: You're absolutely right, and my apologies. I have no idea why this delusional jackass came after me like this.
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Feb 7, 2016 - 09:18am PT
I think (This intro means I have no expectation that you will agree with me and I only present these concepts as food for thought.) a simplified interpretation of the whole public lands issue might be that over the years the Federal government position has changed in response to public opinion changes. This is what government in a democracy is supposed to do. (There goes another opinion; your silence will not be interpreted as agreement) The public and regulatory concept for land was "productive use" until the environmental movement in the 60's or 70's changed both the public and regulatory vision to protection. So instead of trying to convert every square inch of the land to productive use, we now try to save what is left of wild lands and even to revert some low production land back to wild land. The Bundys are trying to keep very low production land in production when it does not seem to be financially feasible to do so.

I'm a 4th generation Idahonian (even though I now live in California). Idaho is littered with the remains of many family homesteads (including those of my family) that turned out to not be financially feasible. Some of these homesteads have been swallowed up by big corporate type operations but a lot of them have simply been abandoned as far as productive use goes. In many areas the old farm houses and barns are gone, the families are gone and the land is fallow. When I was a kid, we played in empty houses and barns that are no longer there. Most of the people realize that they need to innovate and adapt as the world changes. The Bundys would prefer to live in some mythical past.

I have lived in Harney County. Harney County is huge and has a lot of land that is not viable for productive use that I think would be better as wild.





This is a very long read and also just food for thought:

http://n-continuum.blogspot.com/2014/01/21-signs-of-online-destructive.html
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Feb 7, 2016 - 02:00pm PT
Escopeta: Great job of cherry picking my posts


Hehe, you guys are still calling him "Escopeta".
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 7, 2016 - 02:10pm PT
johnboy: I could sure think of a lot of other things to call him.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 7, 2016 - 02:25pm PT
Your emotions just control you don't they?
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 7, 2016 - 04:06pm PT
Escopeta: What are you talking about? Is it because I don't approve of heavily armed morons trying to overthrow the U.S. government?

Thanks for always being a condescending prick.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 7, 2016 - 05:38pm PT
One of the Fab Four, we all know him as David Fry, somehow managed to get another video posted.


http://katu.com/news/local/one-of-last-refuge-occupants-posts-video-despite-communication-being-cut-off
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 7, 2016 - 07:50pm PT
When you can't reply with substance, overpower it with emotion.

Maybe you should take a field trip down there and evict them yourself if you're so upset about it.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Feb 7, 2016 - 07:54pm PT

Soon to be jailed. . .
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Feb 7, 2016 - 08:10pm PT
escopeta = shotgun in Spanish. OK if we call you Shotgun from now on?

OUR government will deal with the revolutionaries you appear to support.

Unfortunately, it's almost always the followers you appear to root for, like the four left at Malheur, that end up under the tank treads.



Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 7, 2016 - 09:17pm PT
Escopta: Let's see you dazzle us with the substance of your opinions - substantive as in supported by objectively verifiable sources.

I'll be eagerly awaiting your scholarly citation of the names of credible commentators who feel that "freedom" is better served by mobs of heavily armed thugs in thrall to the 1%ers instead of the existing Democracy so many hundreds of thousands U.S. citizens gave their lives to defend.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Feb 7, 2016 - 09:48pm PT
Let's get the feds out of there, they don't belong in our states

shit like this sorta makes me miss dubya shrubnuts. pure unadulterated self-parody.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 7, 2016 - 10:30pm PT
This question was pretty well settled at Gettysburg and Antietam.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 8, 2016 - 05:31am PT
Oh yeah Fritz. I'm really pulling for the retards in Oregon. It's breaking my heart over there <eyeroll>

I just find it funny how riled up you guys get and then say "oh, let the government deal with it". Vote harder!


HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 8, 2016 - 05:49am PT
Stewart posted
Escopta: Let's see you dazzle us with the substance of your opinions - substantive as in supported by objectively verifiable sources.

That's not really his thing.
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Feb 8, 2016 - 06:47am PT
I just find it funny how riled up you guys get

Identifies self as troll.
overwatch

climber
Feb 8, 2016 - 07:03am PT
Blasted onto the ST scene with all the discrimination of a sawed off, another expert at everything under the sun.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Feb 8, 2016 - 07:10am PT
This thread took a weird turn somewhere back.

Not quite as weird as that time a bunch of loonies decided to take over a Fish and Wildlife Service refuge because they were mad at the BLM. Some will say they didn't accomplish much, but assembling the largest collection of dildos and lube that Harney County, OR has ever seen is not an insignificant thing.

And there was something about cats too... something, well, intriguing.

*And for the record, I am NOT drunk...
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Feb 8, 2016 - 01:27pm PT
I it just me or is it odd that Escopeda and Madbolter1 seem to alternate in posting? It seems to go for days at a stretch when it is either one or the other. Lets see if that changes now or perhaps a new clone will magically appear.
overwatch

climber
Arizona
Feb 8, 2016 - 01:32pm PT
I don't think so there are people on here that know both of them.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 8, 2016 - 03:46pm PT
HighDesertDJ: Thanks. I'm finally starting to figure that one out.

I guess his computer is only programmed to crank out condescending one-liners.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Feb 8, 2016 - 04:35pm PT
I it just me or is it odd that Escopeda and Madbolter1 seem to alternate in posting? It seems to go for days at a stretch when it is either one or the other. Lets see if that changes now or perhaps a new clone will magically appear.

That occurred to me too, especially when Escopeta started quoting Locke, but Madbolter's typical MO was a refusal to differentiate between objective facts and (his) opinions or (his) philosophy. No matter how delusional, however, his opinions and philosophy were much more consistent and always thought provoking, not merely pot-stirring.

TE
overwatch

climber
Arizona
Feb 8, 2016 - 05:10pm PT
I don't think so there are people on here that know both of them.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 8, 2016 - 05:22pm PT
Let me know when you retards have it figured out. Good grief
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 8, 2016 - 05:25pm PT
Isn't it sad when Escopeta responds with emotion instead of logic?
WBraun

climber
Feb 8, 2016 - 05:35pm PT
Isn't it sad that you waste all your time worrying about what Escopeta says .....
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 8, 2016 - 05:42pm PT
What, me worry?
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Feb 8, 2016 - 05:43pm PT
Isn't it sad you waste your time worrying about Stewart wasting his time worrying about what Escopeta says.


And yes I'm a crankaloon too:-)

Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 8, 2016 - 06:50pm PT
On the topic of the Matheus (SP in honor of Fritz) National Wildlife Refuge take over. Since the Hammond Case was clearly not sufficient; it would be curious to know what, if anything, could be the spark...the genesis.....the antecedent that might cause people here to act in support of something. Or in rebellion from it.

What transgression could the government possibly do that might inspire the ST crankloons to rise up and join the fight?

Anyone care to hazard a guess? The mind reels.

TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Feb 8, 2016 - 08:41pm PT
What transgression could the government possibly do that might inspire the ST crankloons to rise up and join the fight?

Until such time as courts and elections no longer function, rest assured that the only fight the people will rise up to join would be in opposition to your self-styled patriots.

I suggest you read more of the Hammond case if you think it was a cause worth dying for (a generally higher bar than a cause worth killing for). While the mandatory minimum sentence may have been excessive, it was the law when they set the two fires and it was the law when they admitted in court to setting both fires. As part of sentencing negotiations, the Hammonds acknowledged that they were aware of this mandatory minimum. If the government had really wanted to railroad them, they could have requested the five year sentences for both counts of arson be consecutive, not concurrent.

If twenty armed Muslims took over a government building demanding the immediate release of all inmates from Guantanamo Bay, they'd have a far better legal and moral position than the Bundyites, they'd even have a far larger segment of the population support their aims. That still wouldn't make them right.

TE
dirtbag

climber
Feb 8, 2016 - 08:47pm PT
Tonight I shall light a candle for escopeta and all the other Americans suffering under tyranny.
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 8, 2016 - 09:33pm PT
Don't worry, be happy there John

Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 8, 2016 - 10:05pm PT
TradEddie: Well stated.

Escopeta has yet to explain how his fairyland ruled by heavily armed bands of thugs in thrall to the 1%ers is somehow going to be an improvement upon Democracy.

I guess it's because he can't.
franky

Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
Feb 9, 2016 - 04:09am PT
If the fed government starting giving away public land to ranchers or states (more than it already does with grazing leases), I might be inspired to do something.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 9, 2016 - 05:16am PT
Giving away or selling?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 9, 2016 - 05:25am PT
dirt posted
Tonight I shall light a candle for escopeta and all the other Americans suffering under tyranny.

Made my morning, dirt. I'm going to be voting today with a grin on my face because of you.
franky

Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
Feb 9, 2016 - 06:37am PT
Either
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Feb 9, 2016 - 07:04am PT
If they is so smart, why they is losing every time?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 9, 2016 - 07:08am PT
Can't we all just agree that the important thing here is that Beyonce dressed her dancers up as Black Panthers at the SuperBowl?
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Feb 9, 2016 - 07:09am PT
39 posts left... Prizes are available.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Feb 9, 2016 - 07:19am PT
Dingus makes a good point. If the Occupy Wall Street crowd had gone in armed, they'd still be there.
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 9, 2016 - 07:54am PT
I recently moved to Texas and the USA in general, I'm admittedly new to Country but I find it very relate-able, the ideas of freedom, independence and the spirit of rebellion against oppression, and the joy of wandering the wide windswept lands are beautifully portrayed. It's saddening to see the genre diminishing to whiskey-pining ballads, understandably because the originals are wary and some pander to keep it alive, but I wish patrons imbued an attitude of inclusion because outsiders like us, can empathize, contrary to popular belief. In this song I like to think the Highwaymen wanted to portray the embodiment of the American spirit that was within folks of that time, from Johnny's coach guard, Waylon's shark, Willie's farmer and Kris' native who toiled in that era, thinking about their place in this land.
-anonymousDas

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 9, 2016 - 08:12am PT
Either

So you are in support of the Federal Government buying land, but opposed to them selling land (or giving it away which for the record I wouldn't support either)?

Not trying to put words in your mouth, just trying to understand the dichotomy of the position.

You would be inspired to act out against hte government if they started selling land to states or citizens?

(For the record, this happens all the time but I'm willing to play along like it doesn't in order to understand your position)
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 9, 2016 - 08:17am PT
Escopeta posted
You would be inspired to act out against hte government if they started selling land to states or citizens?

Define "acting out." In the context of this thread that means "taking up arms against a bird sanctuary visitor center."
franky

Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
Feb 9, 2016 - 08:34am PT
where is it happening? my militia is ready to go!

Geeze dude, do you want me to right a position paper on federal government land ownership?

Yes, generally I'm opposed to the federal government selling land. I wouldn't choose to forbid them to do it as long as it was a public process that took into account all current and future resources on the land they planned to sell. I'm pretty fine with well-vetted land swaps and sales to state or local governments for specific purposes like building schools or other public infrastructure, or even for state parks or various other rec areas if they have a good plan to keep the land available to the public and not exploit it.

Your apparent attempt to make my position black and white is an unproductive discussion method.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 9, 2016 - 08:40am PT
For christ sake. All I did was ask a question and purposefully said I WASN'T trying to tell you what I think you meant to say.

Appreciate you expounding on your position.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 9, 2016 - 09:03am PT
Escopeta, they're too smart to get caught out answering a straight forward question.
franky

Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
Feb 9, 2016 - 09:14am PT
Ha, my final sentence was in reference to your final sentence. Seems like the last sentence of a post is generally reserved for some attempt at a gratuitous verbal shot.

overwatch

climber
Arizona
Feb 9, 2016 - 09:48am PT
Make sure you get the last one!
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 9, 2016 - 09:59am PT
I just find it interesting to see where different people draw the line.

To quote an old acquaintance of mine "How do you spot the precise point where a society is standing at the back of the van and the State has the handcuffs out?"
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 9, 2016 - 10:01am PT
It doesn't matter so long as you can perpetuate the fallacy of "state" and "society" as being distinct entities, preferably where the state is personified as something scary.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 9, 2016 - 11:30am PT
"I don't care about your opinion unless you threaten to kill me about it."
overwatch

climber
Arizona
Feb 9, 2016 - 11:43am PT
you don't know where anybody really "draws the line", this is the internet
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Feb 9, 2016 - 12:04pm PT
Well, this certainly wasn't it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/17/us/jade-helm-military-exercise-ends-with-little-fanfare-and-less-paranoia.html?_r=0

Any other NRA red herrings coming up? What is the evil government up to next?

[Click to View YouTube Video]
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 9, 2016 - 12:05pm PT
Does that mean the Walmarts being used for processing conservative white people can start selling cheap garbage again?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Feb 9, 2016 - 02:34pm PT
Did the Occupiers have the right to occupy the peoples' parks for months on end.

I'm not a lawyer, but I believe that in fact they did have a right to take over the park in an act of what's called civil disobedience. I suppose that somewhere they crossed a legal limit, and hence they were forcibly moved out. But the fact is, Occupy Wall Street was a "peaceful" protest.

They had no guns, it was not an armed take-over, and I believe that make a huge difference. Now imagine if they did brandish weapons.
(Ha, re-reading what Gary said above--yeah, they'd probably still be there!)

If the militia went in and did a sit-in, without arms, who knows what would have ensued. But I doubt it would have garnished the MSM attention that adding arms to the mix did.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 9, 2016 - 03:08pm PT
So, the unarmed people had the right to take over the the parks but the fact that the yeehawdists had guns so that made it not right?

I'm not sure I understand the distinction since the people that they were opposing in both cases, most certainly were armed.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Feb 9, 2016 - 03:35pm PT
The Occupy BS people came saying their intent was to stop the Hammonds from going to prison. When the Hammonds said "We're going to serve our sentences," they didn't leave.

They said they were prepared to stay as long as necessary, yet asked for donations of food before the day was out.

Then they said "If the people of this county don't want us here, then we'll leave," but when they residents said they dd NOT want them there, they didn't leave.

Then they started videotaping very stupid acts, like the fence removal.


If the Occupy Wall Street activists were broadcasting idiocy, you can be assured they would have received similar derision that the Occupy Bird Sanctuary did.

Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Feb 9, 2016 - 03:42pm PT



Escopet

Trad climber
Idaho

Feb 9, 2016 - 03:08pm PT
So, the unarmed people had the right to take over the the parks but the fact that the yeehawdists had guns so that made it not right?

I'm not sure I understand the distinction since the people that they were opposing in both cases, most certainly were armed.


Hi.

Occupiers did not interfere with police or government officials performing their legal duties. ( except in some peculiar abstract which you will possibly enlighten us with)
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Feb 9, 2016 - 04:19pm PT
So, the unarmed people had the right to take over the the parks but the fact that the yeehawdists had guns so that made it not right?

Both acts were illegal, one was an act of civil disobedience, the other an act of terrorism. As far as right or wrong goes, we'd have to get the philosophy Prof back for that one. It depends(tm).

In one, protesters undertook a non-violent act of trespass fully accepting that they could and would be prosecuted. At no point was lethal force used or threatened to prevent police from enforcing any law. At no point did protesters deny or oppose the legal authority of police to enforce any law. The purpose was to peaceably gain attention to their grievances.

In the other, citizens undertook an act of armed trespass with the stated willingness to use lethal force to avoid prosecution for that crime, they denied the authority of police to enforce the law, they encouraged others to use lethal force to oppose police. The purpose was to usurp the judgement of the courts, to circumvent the very core of the constitution they claim loyalty to.

TE
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 9, 2016 - 04:39pm PT
TradEddie: Careful with the logic - Escopeta might flip out again.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 9, 2016 - 05:27pm PT
TE,

OK, but what does "armed" have to do with either of those distinctions? I understand your explanation, but wouldn't the difference be evident regardless of whether the Oregon group was armed or not?

<break>

I realize, it sounds much more salacious, but I am intrigued by the fact that when the media reported on the situation why didn't they incessantly say the armed militia was meeting with the armed FBI agents? As if the militia were the only party to be armed?
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 9, 2016 - 05:41pm PT
Generally, when the authorities are dealing with heavily armed lunatics who are attempting to overthrow a democratically elected government it's considered a good idea for the Feds to be capable of defending themselves.
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 9, 2016 - 05:56pm PT
why didn't they incessantly say the armed militia was meeting with the armed FBI agents?

Presumably because (rightfully or not) the FBI was on the legal side of this affair. The other guys were committing criminal acts. Generally, law enforcement is allowed and presumed to be armed (legitimate) the other guys were deemed to be criminals and therefore not lawfully armed.

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2016 - 06:33pm PT
Escopeta, brandishing a weapon changes everything. Your suggestion that since the FBI is armed then everyone else should be equally armed is laughable.

Some militia staying at the Holiday Inn in kanab for the Finicum funeral accidentally shot through a wall and took out a mirror. Like good rightwing gun nuts, nobody accepted responsibility
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 9, 2016 - 06:53pm PT
Where on earth did I say that because the FBI is armed everyone else should be? The laughable thing is how much you guys want to make sh#t up. If brandishing a weapon changes everything, does that theory still hold true when its the authorities doing said brandishing?

I simply find it interesting, and at least mildly amusing that these things get reported almost from the perspective that the citizens are armed and the authorities are not. Or at least their presence isn't qualified as such.

And based on the picture from the other thread, I don't think lax firearm handling is limited to the right wing.....
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Feb 9, 2016 - 06:59pm PT
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 9, 2016 - 07:24pm PT
Jim Brennan, I guess I'm a bit of an anomaly here. When I type something it's because that's what I want to say. Maybe you guys have been so conditioned by the one liner retards in here to infer and project all manner of overtures into their post in an effort to fit some argument you are making.

As my post stated, I find it interesting that when these altercations get reported, most often via the media, that the qualifying term of "armed" or "unarmed" seems to only be applied to citizens, not the authorities. For example. "Unarmed black man"...... Or....."armed militia men" etc.

I will admit, I don't like what it Implies, but I find it l interesting more than maddening at this point.
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Feb 9, 2016 - 07:29pm PT
I think it's more a matter of assumption.
LEO's are assumed armed (at least in the states) therefore it's almost redundant to say or print it.
Cowboy Joe on the other hand is only assumed armed by other cowboys not the general population therefore a reportable item.

But what do I know...
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 9, 2016 - 07:32pm PT
You may be right.

EDIT: But my suspicion is that it's just a matter of the media attempting to be provocative.
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Feb 9, 2016 - 08:08pm PT
But my suspicion is that it's just a matter of the media attempting to be provocative.

Such a cynic :-)

It does make for better copy though to the sheeple
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Feb 9, 2016 - 08:54pm PT
1997..... This dead horse has legs!

A good point in the constant "heavily armed militia" nonsense that was repeated over and over.

First off, semi-auto rifles and pistols aren't "heavy weapons". And these dildo eaters certainly weren't and aren't a real threat to anyone but themselves.

Now back to 1998...
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 9, 2016 - 09:41pm PT
This just called in by an either armed or unarmed militant black or white libertarian or liberal man or woman.


Students at La Jolla, Lincoln, San Ysidro and Scripps Ranch high schools were ordered to shelter in place in their classrooms after their campuses were put on lockdown Tuesday morning due to unfounded phone threats of violence.


Free Huey, shelter in place, go missing (a threefer in one line).





Don't get your panties in a Bundy ... er ... Bunch

http://explorepahistory.com/kora/files/1/2/1-2-1710-25-ExplorePAHistory-a0l7o5-a_349.jpg
No one trick poney, eh?

“This 229-year question has never been pled, presented to or finally decided by or resolved by the U.S. Supreme Court. Only the U.S. Supreme Court can finally decide, determine judicially and settle this issue now.”
sangoma

Trad climber
south africa
Feb 9, 2016 - 09:49pm PT
Got it. Out from under U krakalloons
2000. So what do I get besides a slap in the face
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 9, 2016 - 09:53pm PT
I guess I'm a bit of an anomaly here.

As you laugh at your trolling, the nature of your anomaly lies your lack of civics education, and media reporting knowledge.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 10, 2016 - 05:16am PT
OLR...
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Feb 10, 2016 - 06:22am PT
Got it. Out from under U krakalloons
2000. So what do I get besides a slap in the face

We have a winner! Congratulations!

Do you like cats?
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Feb 10, 2016 - 06:55am PT
Estupido is losing so badly.

Chatty chat chat.
monolith

climber
state of being
Feb 10, 2016 - 07:21am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 10, 2016 - 07:41am PT
I don't ever want to be tazed, especially after looking so stoopid.
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Feb 10, 2016 - 07:44am PT
+1 Escopeta
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 10, 2016 - 07:48am PT
Monolith- Wow. What a colossal d#@&%e. That was amazing. I'm not sure if tazing him was the right move there or not but I'm pretty glad he got tazed.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 10, 2016 - 08:11am PT
Man, that video above is worth watching.

I don't know what it is about Idaho, but they certainly have more than their fair share of whacko's, particularly the Sovereign Citizen movement.

Wiki has an amazing page on them. I suggest reading it. It will make more sense if you do:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement

You would think that a redneck state like Oklahoma would be crawling with these people, but I'm not aware of a single one. Nevada, Arizona, and Idaho seems to be the epicenter.

Cliven Bundy is one of those sovereign citizens, with a twisted view of the constitution. Wiki even has a page about him.

I wonder what prison will do for those true believers who were busted for taking over the refuge.

Somebody needs to go shoot all of Bundy's trespass cattle in Nevada as well. Mark my words. That event isn't over. The FBI probably has some thick files on those guys who pointed rifles at federal agents in Bundyville.
sangoma

Trad climber
south africa
Feb 10, 2016 - 08:15am PT
(quote)We have a winner! Congratulations!

Do you like cats?(/quote)




Yes....well done , with lots of BBQ sauce ....
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 10, 2016 - 08:16am PT
I wonder what prison will do for those true believers who were busted for taking over the refuge.

It's a fulfillment of their desire to see themselves as persecuted.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 10, 2016 - 08:31am PT
So, the unarmed people had the right to take over the the parks but the fact that the yeehawdists had guns so that made it not right?

TradEddie: Both acts were illegal, one was an act of civil disobedience, the other an act of terrorism

I've been trying to understand your distinction. What determines the dividing line between civil disobedience and terrorism? Is it the fact that they were merely armed, or is there something else? No one has been shot (as of yet) so its not as if the distinction is violence. Is it the threat of violence?

The argument that one group took over a park and the other took over a park headquarters doesn't seem like sufficient reason to justify the change in labels.

And if its the threat of violence, then wouldn't the threat of violence by the authorities be just as assumed as the fact that they are armed?

I know there's a ton of truly butt hurt people here about the whole affair, but I'm trying to understand the difference between Occupy and Oregon. Other than the obvious fact that some people associated themselves with the Occupy plight more closely than Oregon.

An argument can be made that both group's "claims" are equally outlandish, so why the different labels?
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2016 - 08:56am PT
Escostupid - civil disobedience is done non-violently. Occupying land with weapons and making it clear that you intend to use them is violence. despite the fact that the weapons are not actually fired. If I go into a bank and demand money with a pistol in my waistband I will be charged with assault and robbery. A civil disobedience defense will be an epic fail and will probably go viral on YouTube.

Truth is the nutters did fire weapons on the refuge. They went to an outlying building, pulled furniture out and propped up targets and shot at them. More proof they are idiots and that not everyone should be allowed to own a gun.

edit - we are not butt hurt, in fact I think the majority view is that the FBI did an outstanding job of showing the world what idiots the Bundys and SovCits are.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 10, 2016 - 09:15am PT
I think the proper, improper spelling is Estupido. Get with the program.

Threats do not equate to violence. If the mere threat of violence is the distinguishing factor separating the label of civil disobedience and terrorism, then that's fine I guess.

Seems inconsistently applied.
dirtbag

climber
Feb 10, 2016 - 09:35am PT
Boring.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Feb 10, 2016 - 09:35am PT
I've been trying to understand your distinction. What determines the dividing line between civil disobedience and terrorism? ....

... And if its the threat of violence, then wouldn't the threat of violence by the authorities be just as assumed as the fact that they are armed?

When (in this case) did the police threaten to shoot anyone acting lawfully, or even anyone acting unlawfully but peacefully?

The Bundyites carried weapons to prevent the police performing their lawful duties. They carried those weapons to facilitate their crimes, they clearly threatened to shoot any who tried to stop them and the holdouts continue to threaten to use those weapons to avoid prosecution for their crimes.

Would you suggest that a burglar is simply exercising his second amendment rights when he brings a gun? If you had a "Protected by Glock" sign in your yard, does that mean an armed burglar in your home is committing less of a crime than if he burgled the home of someone he knows to be unarmed?

TE
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 10, 2016 - 09:39am PT
Escopeta
And if its the threat of violence, then wouldn't the threat of violence by the authorities be just as assumed as the fact that they are armed?


Police cars have lights. Snowplows have lights. I guess all snowplow drivers must be police officers!!!


What is this facile garbage?
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Feb 10, 2016 - 09:39am PT
Threats do not equate to violence.

Tell that to the person who suffers nightmares after having some creep aim a gun at them and threaten to shoot of they don't do as asked.

Violence is as much the energy as the action.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Feb 10, 2016 - 09:40am PT
Threats do not equate to violence. If the mere threat of violence is the distinguishing factor separating the label of civil disobedience and terrorism, then that's fine I guess.

The MERE threat of violence? What's the difference between panhandling and armed robbery?

TE
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 10, 2016 - 09:54am PT
Threatening violence is a violent act and is illegal. The KKK didn't need to attack to be intimidating, they just needed to burn a cross on your lawn or show up hooded outside your church. There were more than enough prior dead bodies for you to get the picture.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Feb 10, 2016 - 09:59am PT
It's like Ron Anderson and Madbolter1 had a child; the end result is a new poster with the brain-dead reasoning and logic skills of Ron, and the incessant, non-sensical mindless posting of MB1. WTF?
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Feb 10, 2016 - 10:10am PT
I'd say it was BOT, but a BOT is less insistent and more intelligible.

Might be the product on the new, super-secret moran training center somewhere in Knuckleheadistan.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 10, 2016 - 11:04am PT
Generally speaking, its bad form to claim the higher mental ground, when you can't even spell the word moron.

Threats equal threats. Violence is violence. Threats do not equal violence. I'm not saying they can't both be illegal, but even in the eyes of the law they are not equal. That's why they have two different words to describe them.

Happiegirl, I have no idea what the comment of "Violence is as much the energy as the action." means. But I assure you, there is a vast difference between the threat of a gun shoved in your face and actually getting shot in the face. Nightmares notwithstanding.

If the threat of violence is enough to qualify the oregon idiots as terrorists then fine. But trying to claim that the fact they carried guns makes them terrorists could easily be viewed as a rationalization meant to support your position.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 10, 2016 - 11:07am PT
Escopeta posted
Generally speaking, its bad form to claim the higher mental ground, when you can't even spell the word moron.

You certainly can't complain about being attacked from the lower ground when every other post you make contains a permutation of the pejorative "retard."

Threats equal threats. Violence is violence. Threats do not equal violence.

Threats are a form of emotional violence. You are speaking of violence as being solely physical. It is not.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Feb 10, 2016 - 11:12am PT
It was a joke based on a meme that has been posted here many times. Sorry if it was too subtle.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 10, 2016 - 11:13am PT
Carrying guns is not illegal for most people. But, carrying them while you take over federal buildings, state that you'll be there for years, ask for others with guns to show up, rename said federal buildings, use federal computers, vehicles and heavy equipment, take down fences, ignore the community request to leave, etc. All this combined is elevated by the fact that the protesters were armed and stating they would "defend themselves." Maybe I'm just tripping again, but that's the way it appears to this layman.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Feb 10, 2016 - 12:09pm PT
This thread has reached the Loising Point!

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/497677/Loiss-Law-and-The-Loising-Point
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Feb 10, 2016 - 12:37pm PT
Oh come on, it reached that long ago....
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 10, 2016 - 12:45pm PT
The important thing is that much Bonanza was had.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2016 - 03:16pm PT
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 10, 2016 - 03:42pm PT
Have one on the folks from Coronado (if it's your brand).

overwatch

climber
Arizona
Feb 10, 2016 - 04:47pm PT
If the threat of violence is enough to qualify the oregon idiots as terrorists then fine. But trying to claim that the fact they carried guns makes them terrorists could easily be viewed as a rationalization meant to support your position.

a general definition of terrorism is use of violence or threat of violence in the furtherance of political or religious gains. I believe what the yeehawdists are doing qualifies
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Feb 10, 2016 - 04:58pm PT
Definition of Terrorism(Domestic):
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2331

(5) the term “domestic terrorism” means activities that—
(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended—
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.

I suppose one could argue that the Malheur Militia people didn't perform acts dangerous to human life.... but it would be a fairly weak argument, and I would suggest they owe it to the government for not putting them in the position to show what their intentions actually were, should it have come down to defending their "fort."
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 10, 2016 - 05:31pm PT
(5) the term “domestic terrorism” means activities that—
(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended—
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.

That appears to describe pretty much our entire legislative and executive branch to a tee...
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Feb 10, 2016 - 05:39pm PT
Hi, Lois. Missed you.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 10, 2016 - 06:29pm PT
Escopeta: Except that the legislation was enacted by the elected representatives of a democracy instead of a bunch of heavily armed thugs.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 10, 2016 - 06:34pm PT
Hi, Lois. Missed you.

OLR
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Feb 10, 2016 - 06:47pm PT
Lois was many things, but I don't think she'd throw around the word 'retarded' (or derivatives of it) like this poster has.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2016 - 07:28pm PT

it is going down live, FBI is moving in, Fiore is making it worse, Greasy Dave wants to surrender to Franklin Graham and Cliven Bundy

[Click to View YouTube Video]
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 10, 2016 - 10:19pm PT
They say they're surrendering in the morning as long as assemblywoman, reverend Graham, and the media are present.

That would be a little different than the earlier demands that everyone involved go free, including Ammon and the Keystone Kowboys.
They're so inconsistent, sheesh....
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2016 - 10:57pm PT
Word is Cliven Bundy arrived in Portland by air and was detained at the airport.

https://twitter.com/StephenKATU/status/697671129595379713
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 10, 2016 - 11:09pm PT
KATU reports he was booked at the Multnomah county jail on a previous warrant stemming from 2014. The same conspiracy to interfere with federal officer charge Ammon is facing.

He was booked by a sherrif, who he says is the ultimate authority.

A Bundy reunion.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 10, 2016 - 11:37pm PT

MCDC is the downtown detention center next to the Federal courthouse, not the jail out by the airport.
Must be so they can take him right to court in the morning.
maxdacat

Trad climber
Sydney, Australia
Feb 11, 2016 - 01:22am PT
From the Guardian:
AngryCymraeg 24m ago


Did they finally run out of snacks and dildos?

Reply

Lol :0
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 11, 2016 - 04:39am PT
Welcome to Portland Cliven. Oh, your sons? They're over here. No, they're not going to the refuge in the morning. Yes, you can stay at the same hotel they're in.
dirtbag

climber
Feb 11, 2016 - 05:10am PT
Nice work. It's time to end this nonsense.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 11, 2016 - 05:22am PT
Crimpie posted
Lois was many things, but I don't think she'd throw around the word 'retarded' (or derivatives of it) like this poster has.


Yup. That's part of what convinced me it wasn't her. Also I don't think she'd ever claim to be an economist.


Escopeta posted
That appears to describe pretty much our entire legislative and executive branch to a tee...

Get it? Because government!! HA!
dirtbag

climber
Feb 11, 2016 - 05:26am PT
It's not Lois. Esco is close to a flat out government hater; Lois advocated, among other things, for single payer Heath care and a fairly interventionist foreign policy. Also, their writing styles are very different.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Feb 11, 2016 - 05:51am PT
Oh, no. It's Lois. This convinced me:'
Threats equal threats. Violence is violence. Threats do not equal violence. I'm not saying they can't both be illegal, but even in the eyes of the law they are not equal. That's why they have two different words to describe them.

Happiegirl, I have no idea what the comment of "Violence is as much the energy as the action." means. But I assure you, there is a vast difference between the threat of a gun shoved in your face and actually getting shot in the face. Nightmares notwithstanding.

If the threat of violence is enough to qualify the oregon idiots as terrorists then fine. But trying to claim that the fact they carried guns makes them terrorists could easily be viewed as a rationalization meant to support your position.

Hey, I like Lois. She got the short end of the stick IMO.
monolith

climber
state of being
Feb 11, 2016 - 06:08am PT
They didn't just 'carry' guns. They used them to accomplish illegal activities such as blocking roads on public lands. Does anyone think this guy would be the slightest deterant against the feds if he didn't have his gun?

Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 11, 2016 - 06:16am PT
About as effective as the Occupy WS people were.......which was the genesis behind asking what the difference was.

Nothing more than an adjective apart...
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 11, 2016 - 06:16am PT
That's none other than Sean Anderson himself, one of the Fab Four who is supposed to be surrendering in a couple hours.
monolith

climber
state of being
Feb 11, 2016 - 06:19am PT
No guns, and the takeover would have been over in a few days.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Feb 11, 2016 - 06:31am PT
Yeeehaw!

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/nevada_rancher_cliven_bundy_de.html
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Feb 11, 2016 - 06:59am PT

Now the feds should go liberate Cliven's cows off the range that
he's not paying for. . .
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 11, 2016 - 07:02am PT
Haha wow. Just when this thread was about to die it gets new legs!
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Feb 11, 2016 - 07:17am PT
Blew past 2K posts in the middle of the night. nobody noticed.

3K easy...


franky

Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
Feb 11, 2016 - 07:32am PT
Climber barbeque at red rocks. I know where to get a whole cow for cheap.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 11, 2016 - 07:36am PT
KGW LIVE FEED!! No paddy wagons in sight yet, but the Fab Four supposed to turn themselves in at 8AM.

The Fab Four is MINE by the way!! I never saw it in reference to these guys before I started using it. Mine mine mine...heh heh heh....

http://interactive.kgw.com/mobile/breaking-video-2.html
WBraun

climber
Feb 11, 2016 - 07:45am PT
The cop car is idling between the white barricades wasting govt. gas.

Every drop is itemized in the USA data base.

They're so stoopid.

All they need is to get MOM to walk in there and slap em on the back of their heads and then drag em out by their ears .....
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Feb 11, 2016 - 07:47am PT
Clive Bundy had been somewhat sane despite the crazed actions of his sons at Malheur.

I am pleased to see that he finally lost it yesterday, drove to Las Vegas, & jumped on a plane to Portland, just like he wasn't a known & wanted domestic terrorist.

He also posted the following quote on the Bundy Ranch Facebook page:

Bundy Ranch
12 hours ago
.

WAKE UP AMERICA!
WAKE UP WE THE PEOPLE!
WAKE UP PATRIOTS!
WAKE UP MILITA!

IT'S TIME!!!!!

CLIVEN BUNDY IS HEADING TO THE HARNEY COUNTY RESOURCE CENTER IN BURNS OREGON.


Dumb, real dumb. He obviously has created his own strange reality. He'll have a lot of time to think about it now.
dirtbag

climber
Feb 11, 2016 - 07:52am PT
Along with Finnicum's suicide by cop, I'm sure bundy's arrest will further rile up the kooks.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Feb 11, 2016 - 07:55am PT
From the [recording on the previous page]:

"Come out with your hands up!"

"You're going to have to shoot us!"

They should just siege the road, nothing goes in. Get them when then come out.
dirtbag

climber
Feb 11, 2016 - 07:59am PT
Stupid idiots, I hope the governments (fed, state, and especially local) puts liens on whatever hardscrabble plots of land, trucks, etc. that these dunces own to help pay for the messes they've created.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Feb 11, 2016 - 08:10am PT
They don't have to shoot anybody. Surround the camp with concertina wire and let them stew for a while. It might take a few months to starve out that one guy, though.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 11, 2016 - 08:18am PT
Breaking news!


A post on one of the Oregonian pages:

Ammon and Cliven now go by Amy and Cleo in cell block 9.




Sean just admitted to his "KILL THEM!!" comment on a live stream in front of 10,000+ people.

"I said some things under duress because I thought it was my last day on Earth and I thought patriots were coming to help us. So I guess I was a little let down on that, but now I have to carry that burden."
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Feb 11, 2016 - 08:24am PT
Best line of the live kook feed this morning is when the kook supporting them on the outside asked the kooks on the inside if they had eaten and they responded, "yeah, we've had some snacks".

you can't make this stuff up
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 11, 2016 - 08:33am PT
My agent on the inside says

"Them boys better not bend over."






























survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 11, 2016 - 09:44am PT
Somebody is playing Sgt. MacKenzie on the live feed.

Classic, and oh so noble.....


[Click to View YouTube Video]


fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Feb 11, 2016 - 10:24am PT
I think the employees should just return as normal and ignore the guys. "Oh my, I'm going to have to move these... hmmmm... items... off my desk."
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 11, 2016 - 10:25am PT
It sounds like Fry is the last one. He's freaking out. There's 5 people talking to him at once. He's talking about prison rape, abortion taxes, pizza and holding a gun to his head all at the same time.

He just said "All I needed was my marijuana, and they wouldn't even give me that!"
(Pot vote in Ohio failed)

Rough spot that he volunteered himself into.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Feb 11, 2016 - 10:38am PT

David Fry is feeling 'suicidal'

Why don't you just put yourself out of our misery. . .
Heyzeus

climber
Hollywood,Ca
Feb 11, 2016 - 10:38am PT
I had to turn it off. I'm afraid I might hear something I don't want to hear.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 11, 2016 - 10:59am PT
If only these militia men had better access to the political system as the rest of us....
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Feb 11, 2016 - 11:00am PT
Sounds like David just walked out and was taken into custody.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 11, 2016 - 11:01am PT
He asked people outside to start saying hallelujah, and he walked out and surrendered.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Feb 11, 2016 - 11:01am PT
Twitter feed says he has surrendered. I hope it is true.

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2016 - 11:01am PT
Greasy Dave has surrendered, I guess he is not as stupid as Lavoy Finicum. Ironically it was Finicum who recruited Greasy Dave to travel to the refuge.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 11, 2016 - 11:03am PT
OLR - a SuperTopo way of life. I think I'm going to like it too.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Feb 11, 2016 - 11:12am PT
What does OLR stand for?


I am just relieved. I followed the Live Twitter this last half hour and it sounded like it was going very badly. I am so glad that man is not dead, at his own hand, or at the hand of an arm twisted, and that no one else was killed.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Feb 11, 2016 - 11:14am PT
OLR Office of Labor Relations
OLR Organic Loading Rate
OLR Outgoing Longwave Radiation
OLR Office of Licensing and Registration (Maine)
OLR Overload Relay
OLR On-Line Registration
OLR Offline Reader (computer conferencing)
OLR Outgoing Long-Wave Radiation
OLR Online Reconfiguration
OLR Online Replacement
OLR Overall Loudness Rating
OLR OverLooked Remix
OLR Optical Label Reader
OLR Outstanding Loss Reserve (insurance)
OLR On Location Repair
OLR Observation Location Refinement
OLR On-Line Replaceable
OLR Open-Loop Resonator
OLR Optical Label Remover
OLR One Life Revolution (AIDS; Malaysia)
OLR Online Realty (Canada)
OLR Office of Legislative Research (Connecticut)
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2016 - 11:16am PT
If only these militia men had better access to the political system as the rest of us....

I wonder if Greasy Dave even bothered to vote in elections, or if he ever attempted to participate before deciding to break the law?

Dude is an extreme example of delusional white privelege

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 11, 2016 - 11:17am PT
Old Liberals Ranting
dirtbag

climber
Feb 11, 2016 - 11:22am PT
Oregon Loony Repository
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Feb 11, 2016 - 11:22am PT
Old Liberals Rantings seems right.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/david_fry_had_earlier_mentione.html
Fry has a criminal record that includes convictions for possession of drugs and possession of marijuana drug paraphernalia and having an insufficient number of life jackets while, he said, floating on a river in an inflatable raft.

Sounds about like many of the OLR's(now that I know) here...


I can't help it - repeating myself. I am just so happy this kid didn't die today.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Feb 11, 2016 - 11:23am PT
^I missed that one. :)

OLR One legged raccoon
OLR Over liquored redneck

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 11, 2016 - 11:26am PT
OLR- Oregon Lockup Resident


I think I just won the internet..... ;0)
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 11, 2016 - 11:30am PT
One legged raccoon


"KNOTT PHUNNY!"




BTW, Survival, that was shot with 'yer' camera! :-)
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Feb 11, 2016 - 11:35am PT
^ Ha! Good one Reilly!
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 11, 2016 - 11:42am PT
OLR for Dummies QED

orale

OLD LOW RIDERS

Meet me down at the corner of Dead End and Brown Pride, sa


overwatch

climber
Arizona
Feb 11, 2016 - 11:53am PT
The Fab Four is MINE by the way!! I never saw it in reference to these guys before I started using it. Mine mine mine...heh heh heh....

Ok...? Is someone actually fighting you for it?

Edit;
OLR...he keeps trumpeting it like it is the most clever thing ever said.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 11, 2016 - 11:56am PT
Great show.

I can't wait for season 2.

The best end was David Fry's tacit endorsement of Ted Cruz.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Feb 11, 2016 - 11:59am PT
OLR: Our Lois Returns

If only these militia men had better access to the political system as the rest of us....

I wish I had assemblywomen coming to see me in person when I had a problem. And I don't ever remember the Vanderburgh County Sheriff offering to let me go off scot free when I broke some law.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Feb 11, 2016 - 12:02pm PT
Good one Gary - - - (Our Lois Returns).

I seriously would be sad if it was her given some of the language used. I honestly don't want to believe LEB would speak (write) like that.
overwatch

climber
Arizona
Feb 11, 2016 - 12:06pm PT
a couple of different posters have stated that they know egosweater, dude named Blake or Brian I think. I am not going to check back through the thread to find out though.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2016 - 12:08pm PT
Ironically the refuge was a national model of collaboration between the community and the Feds. I hope the damage to this effort is not permanent.

Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 11, 2016 - 12:59pm PT
Jon Beck,

How often do you go out to Malheur? Maybe since you have such intimate knowledge of Burns and the relationship between the community and the Feds you can report back to us on how permanent the "damage" is?

Good Grief.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2016 - 01:39pm PT
Sorry that it was a really bad day for you Essy. Maybe the domestic terrorists can achieve martyrdom next time.

I did a bit of reading about Malheur, it helps that I have an open mind. You should try it sometime.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 11, 2016 - 02:02pm PT
This is the difference from non-violent protesters:

“I declare war against the federal government!” Fry shouted before he put down his gun and surrendered. “I’m taking a stand. A stand means you’re willing to risk your life.”
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 11, 2016 - 02:21pm PT
I did a bit of reading about Malheur, it helps that I have an open mind. You should try it sometime.

I did a bit of reading about the Torres Traverse today. I guess that means I can spew and spray about how nice a route that is, seeing as now I know it so well.

The open mind you're so proud of clearly just let's in whatever crap someone decides to feed it.

You ought to try and experience something before you spew on it.



healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 11, 2016 - 02:21pm PT
It'll be a month easy before the FBI release to site back to the refuge staff.
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 11, 2016 - 02:28pm PT
I suppose it could have been worse.


Prison Riot, Fire Leaves Over 50 Dead in Northern Mexico

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/prison-riot-fire-leaves-over-50-dead-northern-mexico-n516601


monolith

climber
state of being
Feb 11, 2016 - 02:51pm PT
Esco is playing the 'you weren't there, how would you know' game.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Feb 11, 2016 - 02:52pm PT
insufficient number of life jackets while, he said, floating on a river in an inflatable raft.

just how many life jackets does one need while floating on a river, in an inflatable raft?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 11, 2016 - 02:55pm PT
It'll be a month easy before the FBI release to site back to the refuge staff.

Now there's a well-founded statement. No doubt there are a lot of Dorito
bags to be analyzed and catalogued as evidence as to who double-dipped.
overwatch

climber
Arizona
Feb 11, 2016 - 02:55pm PT
knock knock...

who's there?

Vietnam...

Vietnam who ?...

YOU DON'T KNOW YOU WEREN'T F U C K I N G THERE!!
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Feb 11, 2016 - 02:56pm PT
If only these militia men had better access to the political system as the rest of us....

one has to be able to read, and be cognizant in order to vote.
Norton

Social climber
Feb 11, 2016 - 02:58pm PT
just how many life jackets does one need while floating on a river, in an inflatable raft?


one for each occupant?
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Feb 11, 2016 - 03:02pm PT
*
How often do you go out to Malheur?

* Shotgun Bryan, What in the sam hill does that matter..That's the thing about public lands..you know the land is set aside for public use > if you so choose to visit or not....
BTW, there are plenty of articles about how this whole think has divided the community.
As a birder, hiker and camper.. it has sparked my interest for a future visit...


This is a quote from BHA, Backcountry hunters & anglers.
http://www.backcountryhunters.org/index.php/backcountry/current-news/1038-bha-statement-on-arrest-of-cliven-bundy-oregon-standoff-missoula-mont-in-the-wake-of-the-arrest-in-oregon-of-cliven-bundy-a-nevada-scofflaw-and-leader-of-a-movement-to-seize-public-lands-from-the-american-people-backcountry-hunters-anglers-president-and-c

MISSOULA, Mont. - In the wake of the arrest in Oregon of Cliven Bundy, a Nevada scofflaw and leader of a movement to seize public lands from the American people, Backcountry Hunters & Anglers President and CEO Land Tawney issued the following statement:

"The American people can take satisfaction in knowing that justice is being served to those who would steal or misappropriate our public lands and waters. Backcountry Hunters & Anglers thanks federal law enforcement personnel for arresting Mr. Bundy without incident. Cliven Bundy has given good ranchers a bad name through his illegal actions. He has consistently flouted the law and currently owes more than $1 million in federal grazing fees. He is a delinquent tenant on public lands who needs to be evicted.

"Now is the time to turn our attention to the Bundys' allies: the politicians, backroom funders and other radicals who would divest citizens of our public lands heritage and take what is rightfully ours. Sportsmen must take a strong stand on behalf of our American birthright."





Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 11, 2016 - 03:34pm PT
Nita,

Jon Beck made the statement that the Malheur Wildlife Refuge was "was a national model of collaboration between the community and the Feds. I hope the damage to this effort is not permanent."

And then when pressed on the validity of such a broad sweeping statement, he backed it up, not with personal experience, but rather with "I did a bit of reading about Malheur"

Public land or not, spewing crap about a community you've never been to regarding a wildlife refuge you've never seen is bad form. And since I've been in the community, and I frequent the refuge, I'm in a unique position to call out the fact that he's full of crap.

If someone came on here and started spraying about a climb they've never done, they would get filleted (at least I hope they would). As a matter of fact, I think I read something about a wall in the valley that had that treatment and they made a movie about it. He spews about a place he's never even been to and the retards soak it up like it was some greater travesty since Malheur was the "model refuge for the entire country." What a bunch of crap.

By all means, come out and visit the refuge. Most will claim that its at its best in the spring, but I actually find it better in the fall just before duck season opens when the migration is in full effect and (usually) there is adequate water.

Maybe at least you will be better suited than Jon Beck and his supposed open mind to comment on the status of said refuge.


EDIT: Lake Lowell Deer Flat Refuge, which is across the border into Idaho is another exceptional bird watching location except in this case I find it better when there ISN'T much water because it tends to concentrate the wildlife to the exposed shorelines.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Feb 11, 2016 - 03:52pm PT
*
Bryan, i had meant to write more to the above post, but had to sneak back to work...

Jon Beck made the statement that the Malheur Wildlife Refuge was "was a national model of collaboration between the community and the Feds. I hope the damage to this effort is not permanent."



Shotgun Brian, I was under that impression also^^^...When i have time, and i can find some quotes from local ranchers...i will post them -up.... One was a rancher speaking to NPR about the collaboration & how the siege was damaging all the work they had done.
There are two people he on the taco that have lived in Burns...Sthlbro, and SueL.....

ps...Thanks for the birding info..
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 11, 2016 - 04:02pm PT
I wonder if the Hammonds think that Malheur is a model of collaboration between the feds and local ranchers?
jonnyrig

climber
Feb 11, 2016 - 04:02pm PT
You ought to try and experience something before you spew on it.

Take anal sex, for example...
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 11, 2016 - 04:03pm PT
OLR ^^^^^
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Feb 11, 2016 - 04:18pm PT
Now that the standoff is done I'm planning an armed takeover of Yosemite Valley to protest the 14 day camping limit. How dare the federal govt. restrict public access to OUR lands!

Who's with me?!

So what if 4 million people want to visit. And we can't accommodate all of them on extended visits.

Wait.. who cares about camping. Now I've decided to protest the 400 permits a day for the Half Dome cables. I'm setting up an armed standoff at the base of the cables. Anyone who shows up gets a free pair of gloves (note: may be mismatched)
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Feb 11, 2016 - 05:16pm PT
I wonder if the Hammonds think that Malheur is a model of collaboration between the feds and local ranchers?

OK, I was wrong. Lois would never try to make a point so incredibly preposterous.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Feb 11, 2016 - 05:57pm PT


just how many life jackets does one need while floating on a river, in an inflatable raft?


one for each occupant?

It was a rhetorical question.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2016 - 06:12pm PT
Damn Essy, why does it bother you so much to see people work out their issues peacefully? Try to answer without making excuses for convicted felons.

I missed the LEB era but from other posts I have a pretty good idea of what she was like. But according to Essy I am just spewing, if I did not actually have a sexual relationship with LEB I could not possibly know her.

edit - Nita, the sheriff's speech was very good, worth watching Essy

zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 11, 2016 - 06:33pm PT
kattz

climber
Feb 11, 2016 - 06:56pm PT
I bet Cliven expected FBI would be greeting him with a red carpet and giving a ride all the way to Malheur, with hookers, whiskey and "live streaming" in the limo. If the fool had stayed home may be wouldn't have gotten arrested...6 charges now.

Bundy Ranch facebook yesterday:

WAKE UP MILITA!
IT'S TIME!!!!!
CLIVEN BUNDY IS HEADING TO THE HARNEY COUNTY RESOURCE CENTER IN BURNS OREGON.
...
Meet Cliven at the resource center, go now
...
HEAD TO BURNS NOW!!! GATHER AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE AND GO NOW!!! WE WILL KEEP YOU UPDATED!
HEAD TO BURNS NOW!!! GATHER AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE AND GO NOW!!! WE WILL KEEP YOU UPDATED!


A little later:
UPDATE 10:54PM PST: Cliven Bundy just landed in Portland; we are being told by eyes on ground that he was surrounded by SWAT and DETAINED.

rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Feb 11, 2016 - 07:05pm PT
Boom!

http://res.cloudinary.com/bdy4ger4/image/upload/v1455216027/Cliven_Bundy_court_docs_zwyknm.pdf

Details of the criminal complaint filed against Cliven Bundy, 2/11/2016.
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Feb 11, 2016 - 07:38pm PT
The occupiers' attorney, Michael Arnold, is a real winner:

C. MICHAEL ARNOLD
OSB #011873
Eugene
Reprimand

On Jan. 17, 2008, the disciplinary board approved a stipulation for discipline reprimanding Eugene lawyer C. Michael Arnold for violating RPC 8.4(a)(2) (commit a criminal act that reflects adversely on the lawyer’s honesty, trustworthiness or fitness as a lawyer in other respects).

Arnold was the prosecutor for the City of Florence at a hearing in which a minor pled guilty to driving under the influence of intoxicants and entered into a diversion agreement. Arnold subsequently contacted the minor, ostensibly for the purpose of checking up on her, and suggested that they meet. Arnold drove the minor to a restaurant and purchased two glasses of wine for her in violation of ORS 471.410(2), which prohibits anyone, other than a parent or guardian, from selling, giving or otherwise making available any alcoholic liquor to a person under the age of 21.
kattz

climber
Feb 11, 2016 - 07:41pm PT
Cliven's seeking a public defender now...he sure loves everything "public".

They've also arrested Blaine Cooper, finally.
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Feb 11, 2016 - 07:43pm PT
I kinda hope ol' Cliven insists on defending himself and brings his pocket constitution.
kattz

climber
Feb 11, 2016 - 07:43pm PT
Well, Ted Bundy defended himself...don't see why Cliven wouldn't.
mrtropy

Trad climber
Nor Cal
Feb 11, 2016 - 08:06pm PT
As many of you know many of the Nevada ranchers like to gut shoot donkeys and wild horses and let wander off and die. Then maybe the feds should do that for us and kill those losers.I for one would love it.
WyoRockMan

climber
Grizzlyville, WY
Feb 11, 2016 - 08:30pm PT
Unfortunately for David Fry, he failed to land the triple Bundy to a Finicum finish. So close to his goal of "Liberty or Death", and now so far far away.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Feb 11, 2016 - 08:59pm PT
*
sorry for the bump but...
I'm so glad the illegal takeover of Malheur is over, also glad all the Bundy's are going to be occupying federal prison property....
I hope they get the maximum and have to pay the taxpayers for damages and operation costs.

ps..That is a donut from a Portland bakery.
..................................................................
In Burns, the town closest to the refuge, people raised American flags up and down the main street to celebrate the occupation’s end. “This is better than the Fourth of July,” said Bekka Riess, 15, beaming as she put flags up. “Maybe now we can finally get our town back.”

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 12, 2016 - 07:31am PT
The Fab Four just released their new album, It's Been A Hard Days Night, with special guests, The Keystone Kowboys!





Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 12, 2016 - 07:57am PT
It strikes me as a bit tasteless to be reveling in 'victory' over a handful of intellectually challenged
malcontents. And in the 40 odd days you were frothing over this well over 100 Americans
have died from gang violence, including a one year old here the other day. This 'gang' was
pretty weak in comparison.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 12, 2016 - 08:17am PT
Reilly, its OK, those gang bangers just don't have the same access to the political system as the rest of us and the Malheur malcontents.....
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Feb 12, 2016 - 08:19am PT
This was direct insurrection against the authority of the federal government and an open attempt to illegally take public property. If you can't understand why that's qualitatively different than most gang violence, I can't help you.
dirtbag

climber
Feb 12, 2016 - 08:20am PT
Reilly, why didn't you say anything, then?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 12, 2016 - 08:22am PT
Spiny posted
The occupiers' attorney, Michael Arnold, is a real winner:

Many times lawyers are forced to do time as a public defender as community service.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 12, 2016 - 08:27am PT
Sorry Reilly, I generally try to stay away from being tasteless. Nor do I want to piss you off, someone who I generally agree with.
But this bunch and their particularly brazen moves and sense of righteous entitlement over the constitution and federal land really deserved some humble pie.
Especially Sean Anderson and his "KILL THEM" video, I just haven't let go of yet.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 12, 2016 - 08:35am PT
Spiny, four morans eating Doritos in a bird sanctuary doth not make an insurrection.
Those morans deserve yer pity, not me.

As intoned in La Marseillaise:

Spare those sorry victims,
Who arm against us with regret
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 12, 2016 - 08:44am PT
The schadenfreude for me is more in the out and out hypocrisy by so many Americans. Two days ago my Facebook feed was filled with outrage about Beyonce's tribute to the Black Panthers. Now the same people are pledging support for these knuckleheads. How people can pretend the divide is not mostly racial is beyond me.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 12, 2016 - 09:00am PT

Those morans deserve yer pity, not me.

As intoned in La Marseillaise:

Spare those sorry victims,
Who arm against us with regret

That's what you cherry picked from the French anthem?

The last stanza of the Marselaisse:

"Drive on sacred patriotism
Support our avenging arms
Liberty, cherished liberty
Join the struggle with your defenders
Under our flags, let victory
Hurry to your manly tone
So that in death your enemies
See your triumph and our glory!"



That poem demands triumph for the defenders of Liberty and death to the enemies.
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Feb 12, 2016 - 09:01am PT
Spiny, four morans eating Doritos in a bird sanctuary doth not make an insurrection.

If that were all that had happened, you'd be right. But that's not all that's in the indictments dropped so far on least fifteen — not four — people. With more likely to follow.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 12, 2016 - 09:01am PT
Total now stands at 23.

That's probably not the end of it.
dirtbag

climber
Feb 12, 2016 - 09:06am PT
No Lorenzo, it isn't. The dopes at Malheur succeeded at riling up the Ron Anderson types, who are even madder as Hell now and really truly aren't going to take anymore. Expect more Malheurs.
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Feb 12, 2016 - 09:07am PT
Let's consider Ryan Payne's comments on the Bundy Ranch standoff:

"We locked them down," Payne says. "We had counter-sniper positions on their sniper positions. We had at least one guy—sometimes two guys—per BLM agent in there. So, it was a complete tactical superiority. ... If they made one wrong move, every single BLM agent in that camp would've died."


Just as one example. These men had declared themselves ready and willing to murder federal and state LE officers during the commission of crimes.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Feb 12, 2016 - 09:08am PT
*
This was direct insurrection against the authority of the federal government and an open attempt to illegally take public property.

+1
Reilly, there is a movement to take over public lands.. The Bundy's are a small part of the movement and i am glad they were exposed for what they are..>. Armed angry white privilege thugs.

I quoted the Backcountry hunters & anglers on the prior page, here is the last line of the quote.
"Now is the time to turn our attention to the Bundys' allies: the politicians, backroom funders and other radicals who would divest citizens of our public lands heritage and take what is rightfully ours. Sportsmen must take a strong stand on behalf of our American birthright."


New York Times. article...
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/11/us/the-larger-but-quieter-than-bundy-push-to-take-over-federal-land.html?_r=0




Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 12, 2016 - 09:19am PT
Nita, I get that but Shakespeare wrote a play about it. Meanwhile the gangs of America have
had large swaths of this country under their control for decades but what is being done about
that? One guy committed suicide by cop there yet dozens die daily from gang warfare. I'm
asking for some perspective.
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Feb 12, 2016 - 09:23am PT
Oh, he wants perspective.

Here's some more perspective.

Kinda hard to argue that nothing is being done about "gang violence" unless one is totally dissociated from the data.

Violent crime of all types (with the possible exception of rape) has been declining for decades.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 12, 2016 - 09:29am PT
The FBI did a good job on this whole mess and the prior one in Nevada. Instead of storming in with guns blazing, they just waited until they could arrest them calmly, even though it took quite a while to catch the old man, Cliven, out in the open.

What were these people thinking? That you can point sniper rifles at BLM employees, and, using arms, prevent them from trying to remove the trespass cattle?

Federal grazing fees are a pittance. The fact that Cliven wouldn't pay the fees was silly. Grazing is almost free.

The one death didn't come from a G-man. It came from an Oregon policeman. Too bad about that.

These guys just need to learn that the sovereign citizen movement is a bunch of crap. Read the wiki page about it. It is loony:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement

Read it. It will blow your mind. And these jokers believe it, along with a lot of others.

They are headed for prison now. Hopefully for a longer period than the ranchers convicted of arson did. I do agree that the mandatory minimum laws which led to their long sentences has always been a bad idea.

I remember when the mandatory minimums law was passed. At the time, it seemed sound. Judges were letting criminals walk with a slap on the wrist. Looking back on 20 years of it, I think it is obvious that the mandatory minimum laws were a bad idea.
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Feb 12, 2016 - 09:30am PT
^ b104 - sharp dude. Watch & learn.
dirtbag

climber
Feb 12, 2016 - 09:31am PT

Just as one example. These men had declared themselves ready and willing to murder federal and state LE officers during the commission of crimes.

Spiny it is amazing that none of those dipshits had an itchy trigger finger and let loose. We were really lucky that no one got hurt.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 12, 2016 - 10:03am PT
Spineless, I'll forward yer post to the mother of the one year old killed by gangsters two days
ago. I'm sure she'll be equally impressed that only 640 people were killed in LA last year, the
vast majority by gangsters. Yeah, it's a veritable love-in out there.

L.A. homicides, after big jump in August, are up 7% for 2015 - LA Times
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-lapd-killings-20150902-story.html
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 12, 2016 - 10:13am PT
Reilly, I don't get what your point is with the gangs.

You keep hammering it, in a rather obnoxious way, but you don't seem to be able to draw an understandable relationship.
couchmaster

climber
Feb 12, 2016 - 10:38am PT
Escobar said, Quote:
"....spewing crap about a community you've never been to regarding a wildlife refuge you've never seen is bad form. And since I've been in the community, and I frequent the refuge, I'm in a unique position to call out the fact that he's full of crap. If someone came on here and started spraying about a climb they've never done, they would get filleted (at least I hope they would). As a matter of fact, I think I read something about a wall in the valley that had that treatment and they made a movie about it. He spews about a place he's never even been to and the retards soak it up like it was some greater travesty since Malheur was the "model refuge for the entire country." What a bunch of crap. By all means, come out and visit the refuge. Most will claim that its at its best in the spring, but I actually find it better in the fall just before duck season opens when the migration is in full effect and (usually) there is adequate water. Maybe at least you will be better suited than Jon Beck and his supposed open mind to comment on the status of said refuge."

I'm not sure that's a fair criticism. I've been to the refuge and to the BLM lands in the Burns area as well. Best friend was the Sheriff in Haines for many years - right next door so to speak. If anyone hasn't been there, try and time it for the Sandhill Crane migration. It's about as impressive as anything.

However, on to the point. Jon Beck reads the news, like we all do. That's where most of us get most of our info. We don't have to meet Bernie Sanders, Trump or Hillary personally to comment on a policy or other issue about them do we? There are news dudes right there collecting current info. You saying your old 1st hand info is better than that?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 12, 2016 - 11:22am PT
Who said it was old?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 12, 2016 - 11:26am PT
I'm posting while pooping from the wildlife refuge visitor center bathroom right now.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 12, 2016 - 11:28am PT
Seriously, do you not see the irony (or hypocrisy) of proclaiming that the Malhuer Refuge is the pinnacle of cooperation between ranchers and feds in the context of the Hammond's decades long fight to keep their land culminating in arson charges and prison sentences? And they are just the only ones that ended up in jail. The rest of them just gave up and left having sold their land.

So, are you saying that its a model of cooperation....except for that messy bit with the Hammonds? But otherwise its a love-in?

The comments were stupid or disingenuous. Take your pick, it matters not to me.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Feb 12, 2016 - 11:49am PT
Take the gloves off.....send them to the other side. They probably have some primitive religious beliefs about heaven, let them check it out.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 12, 2016 - 11:52am PT
Escopeta posted
So, are you saying that its a model of cooperation....except for that messy bit with the Hammonds? But otherwise its a love-in?

The comments were stupid or disingenuous. Take your pick, it matters not to me.

It is both stupid and disingenuous to argue that repeated arson on public land is the model of cooperation, it's true.
franky

Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
Feb 12, 2016 - 11:58am PT
The only fight they had to keep their land was a financial one. Like I said ages ago in the thread, the federal government doesn't take land. Granted, they probably couldn't afford their land without federal handouts and heavily subsidized grazing.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Feb 12, 2016 - 11:58am PT
He came to troll
But stayed to rant
monolith

climber
state of being
Feb 12, 2016 - 12:01pm PT
One arsonist ranchers relationship with the BLM does not define the relationships of all the other ranchers and entities with the BLM.
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Feb 12, 2016 - 01:14pm PT
Indeed. Equating the Hammonds or the Bundys to ranchers in general is a disgraceful slander.
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Feb 12, 2016 - 01:48pm PT
Bundy Militia Indictment BINGO!
kattz

climber
Feb 12, 2016 - 07:05pm PT
Old Cliven had been spending too much time sitting holed up in his ranch and on Facebook....obviously had lost all contact with reality...forgot that any property is really just rented from the government... including his ranch. Alone, he could have had some insanity defense, but it'll be hard when his kids are involved too.
He should have done it like John Joe Gray instead, may be they'd let him sit it out....
WyoRockMan

climber
Grizzlyville, WY
Feb 12, 2016 - 07:15pm PT
https://www.hcn.org/articles/malheur-occupation-oregon-ammon-bundy-public-lands-essay

Most likely the best piece of writing and summary of the whole affair.

"
Instead, the nature of evil is to take a truth and twist it, sometimes as much as 180 degrees. Love of country becomes hatred of those we believe don’t share our devotion, or don’t share it the same way. The natural right of armed self-defense becomes the means to take over a wildlife refuge, to exert tyranny on those who work there, or those who love the place for the nature it preserves in a world replete with man’s endeavors. The U.S. Constitution, one of the most liberal and empowering documents ever composed, becomes, with just a slight annotation or interpretation, the tool of our own enslavement.
"
kattz

climber
Feb 12, 2016 - 07:23pm PT
Looking at their Facebook....these cowboys seem to be popular with the ladies :/
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Feb 12, 2016 - 07:33pm PT
He came to troll
But stayed to rant

Happi, I tend to agree with that statement.

Looks like Harney county has a Migratory Bird festival in April.......cool.
http://www.migratorybirdfestival.com/


edit ,WyoRockMan, thanks for the link, good long read-even with my ADD...;)..
............................................................................................................................................................................................................................vvv
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Feb 12, 2016 - 07:54pm PT
WyoRockMan: That High Country News article you linked to is well-written & very interesting. A worthy read for those here not suffering from ADD.

http://www.hcn.org/articles/malheur-occupation-oregon-ammon-bundy-public-lands-essay
kattz

climber
Feb 12, 2016 - 08:04pm PT
Year 2045: public lands are the only ones not yet sold to Chinese buyers to park their fraud cash....might happen.
franky

Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
Feb 12, 2016 - 08:09pm PT
That hcn essay is good. He makes some connections that are convincing and not discussed elsewhere.
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Feb 12, 2016 - 11:38pm PT
^-- agreed. That is a skillful piece of writing — and thinking.
perswig

climber
Feb 13, 2016 - 02:33am PT
That was a fascinating and well-constructed read, WyoRockMan. Thanks for the link.

Dale
Bill Mc Kirgan

Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Feb 13, 2016 - 04:27am PT
WyoRockMan and Fritz,

Thanks for sharing the link to Hal Herring's brilliant essay.

In an age of journalistic sensationalism Herring approaches this mess with honesty and paints a picture of what he saw and learned from people at the scene.



Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 13, 2016 - 05:47am PT
Good Read.

I find it interesting how all of the articles, and a lot of the comments on here focus on the pure stupidity of the Bundy clan idiots, while very conveniently side stepping the reality of the Hammond case. The idicoy of the Bundy crankloons was covered on page one, although its fun pointing out their stupidity, I agree.

Oh, they will go on about how they don't believe in mandatory minimum sentences as though they were throwing a dog a bone to make it sound like the Hammond's got a raw deal. As if the sentencing were the one transgression of the mean people of the forest service and blm.

But no one wants to touch the story of the decades of coercion by the public land managers to squeeze the Hammonds and their (previous) neighbors off their property.

Carry on and don't mind that elephant in the room. His crap doesn't stink if you don't acknowledge it either.

Looks like I'll be in Burns tomorrow shooting jacks off of haystacks. I'll look in on the refuge and make sure its still a model of cooperation between the federal government and local ranchers so you all can rest easy.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 13, 2016 - 09:11am PT
Happi, I tend to agree with that statement.

Birdwatcher Nita,

So, when someone comes on here and offers an opinion that deviates from the "Libtard Sh#t Show Drum Circle" they get labeled as a troll?

But the One Liner Retards that litter the pages of this and other threads are just keeping the faith? And subsequently aren't worth calling out?

Man, you guys really get thrown for a wobbler when someone comes in and interrupts your socialist progressive leg humping and ball cupping sessions.

overwatch

climber
Arizona
Feb 13, 2016 - 09:30am PT
Hey, Eggospitter, like the literary masterpieces you post are any more significant? you come blasting on to the scene with shotgun hulls spilling from your pockets, another genius on everything, just what this site needed, like inhaling a deep breath of Chinese air.

There, that is three lines, retard... maybe a line or two now and then is all the time some people want to spend
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 13, 2016 - 09:42am PT
I find it interesting how all of the articles, and a lot of the comments on here focus on the pure stupidity of the Bundy clan idiots, while very conveniently side stepping the reality of the Hammond case. The idicoy of the Bundy crankloons was covered on page one, although its fun pointing out their stupidity, I agree.
Well at least we agree on Bundy stupidity.


Oh, they will go on about how they don't believe in mandatory minimum sentences as though they were throwing a dog a bone to make it sound like the Hammond's got a raw deal. As if the sentencing were the one transgression of the mean people of the forest service and blm.
I think as many people will attribute the transgression to a right wing congress writing poorly written laws and prosecutors and federal judges who follow the laws as written, something the "tough on crime " folks are always screaming for and what brought about the mandatory sentences to begin with. I don't see any history where the stupidity of the law was challenged before white ranchers got caught up in it, but I welcome a link to your pointing out how stupid the law was before the Hammond case.


But no one wants to touch the story of the decades of coercion by the public land managers to squeeze the Hammonds and their (previous) neighbors off their property.

Here you invent a narrative that never existed. There is no record of any Feds squeezing going on against the Hammonds, though there is plenty of squeezing that went on. The vast majority of the refuge land was purchased from Swift Foods, who sold it when it was no longer profitable due to overgrazing and using so much lake water you could camp on the lake bed, and squatters did. The Hammonds bought almost all their land from the former French estate and from the Government. Swift bought the land from Peter French's Holdings after he was assassinated by a rancher mad at French for fencing off land and water access that wasn't his. He in turn, bought land from the Government under fraudulent practices and by squeezing out poorer ranchers , sometimes with threats of violence.

And the Feds, of course, stole all 1.8 Million acres from the Paiutes by reneging on a treaty and not keeping out white settlers as they promised. The county this all happened in is named after a white general the Sioux called woman killer, and not for his good looks.
He killed Sioux women and Children at Ash Hollow, and beat his own slave girl to death for losing a set of keys.

Carry on and don't mind that elephant in the room. His crap doesn't stink if you don't acknowledge it either.
follow your own advice.

Looks like I'll be in Burns tomorrow shooting jacks off of haystacks. I'll look in on the refuge and make sure its still a model of cooperation between the federal government and local ranchers so you all can rest easy.
A great patriotic goal. Be sure to tell the first Fed you see how it's not their land. You'll be doing a great service to the constitution. In a few years if the land is sold off, you'll be doing your shooting at a gun range because the Koches and the Chinese will keep you off their land.
kattz

climber
Feb 13, 2016 - 10:06am PT
Isn't Facebook a fascist/socialist government-controlled brainwash and spying tool? Cliven sure loves it, and it's free. (starting to feel backwards as don't have a facebook account...even Cliven got one)
I'm glad Michelle Fiore is actually wearing something in all the press conferences they're holding now.
John M

climber
Feb 13, 2016 - 10:07am PT
But no one wants to touch the story of the decades of coercion by the public land managers to squeeze the Hammonds and their (previous) neighbors off their property.

somewhere way back in this thread is an article which explains the fallacy of your notion that the Hammonds were abused by public land managers. It was a well written and balanced article about the history of the area and the cooperation that has been created in that area. It explained the fallacy that the government forced anyone out. It explained that drought and over grazing forced most cattlemen out. But I don't feel like trying to find it.

I do agree that we need to be talking about the very real ways government is out of balance, but as the very well written article linked by wyorockman, its hard to have that conversation when the main players can only argue that the constitution is all that we need, and when they don't even understand the history behind what has happened in the area. And when there is so much misinformation out there.

Has the government overstep and expanded? I believe so. In what ways.. I can't really say because I'm not that well informed and we haven't really had that conversation yet. I do believe and did believe when mandatory sentences were created that they would be a problem, but I also understood that when judges can be influenced by the wealthy and when the wealthy can get slaps on the wrists for things that the middle class and the poor get much stiffer sentences, then we had a problem. Mandatory sentences was the solution. It was a poor solution. We needed to hold our judges accountable for their sentences.

....

I agree with everyone who said this article linked by wyorockman is a great article.

http://www.hcn.org/articles/malheur-occupation-oregon-ammon-bundy-public-lands-essay

....

Edit: I want to add that the whole atmosphere of the forum makes it almost impossible to have a reasoned conversation about the issues that face this country. I try to look past peoples snide tones, but it wears me out.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 13, 2016 - 10:17am PT
^^^^ Amen, John.

Good article in today's LATimes about the divisiveness engendered by this in Burns.
Like here, the reasonable people are hated by both sides.
WyoRockMan

climber
Grizzlyville, WY
Feb 13, 2016 - 10:23am PT
I want to add that the whole atmosphere of the forum makes it almost impossible to have a reasoned conversation about the issues that face this country. I try to look past peoples snide tones, but it wears me out.

Not just this forum, but a very wide majority of all internet lines of communication have caustic atmospheres hampering reasoned conversation.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Feb 13, 2016 - 10:44am PT
I don't see any history where the stupidity of the law was challenged before white ranchers got caught up in it, but I welcome a link to your pointing out how stupid the law was before the Hammond case.

While the author of the book "Just Mercy" never call the law "stupid," he does provide an extremely compelling description for it's being cruel and unusual punishment. An important book in the fight to right the imbalance of justice being weighed against low-income black citizens of the US.
http://bryanstevenson.com/the-book/

However, that is about African-Americans, and so not really of interest to those who "care" about government overreach when it comes to public lands.
kattz

climber
Feb 13, 2016 - 10:59am PT
Government commits plenty of overreach and trespasses. US government is, in fact, semi-fascist, in my view. (and yes, I do believe Facebook is a spying and brainwash tool, engineered by certain elite with very specific purposes)
Occupation of the refuge, however, is nothing but the exploitation of the above fact by a certain group, for the sake of their private greedy little interests (their own little private dream island of socialism, everything free and cheap...for them). Franlky, I don't care about the Hammonds....whatever're the predicaments of the poor wealthy ranchers or some poor wealthy gamblers or entrepreneurs... they knew damn well what they were doing, throwing these matches and probably this was also a message for the "Feds" about whose territory they were on....tease a lion enough...get your head bit off. Life is not fair.
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Feb 13, 2016 - 11:08am PT
(and yes, I do believe Facebook is a spying and brainwash tool, engineered by certain elite with very specific purposes

Better check your belly button lint for radio tranceivers.

As though the profit motive wasn't sufficient to explain FB.
kattz

climber
Feb 13, 2016 - 11:15am PT
A lot of things are profitable...but not all are allowed to bloom and gain influence to the degree Facebook has. It started off as a game, then it was purely for profit, but eventually it became a whole lot more, with certain social engineers joining in. The influence on public and dependency that currently exist would be quite a dangerous thing, for the government--if it wasn't controlled. It's a mass media tool, and just like CNN, etc, it serves the same purposes, only it has spying capacity as well.
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Feb 13, 2016 - 11:51am PT
1964:
American politics has often been an arena for angry minds. In recent years we have seen angry minds at work mainly among extreme right-wingers, who have now demonstrated in the Goldwater movement how much political leverage can be got out of the animosities and passions of a small minority. But behind this I believe there is a style of mind that is far from new and that is not necessarily right-wing. I call it the paranoid style simply because no other word adequately evokes the sense of heated exaggeration, suspiciousness, and conspiratorial fantasy that I have in mind. In using the expression “paranoid style” I am not speaking in a clinical sense, but borrowing a clinical term for other purposes. I have neither the competence nor the desire to classify any figures of the past or present as certifiable lunatics. In fact, the idea of the paranoid style as a force in politics would have little contemporary relevance or historical value if it were applied only to men with profoundly disturbed minds. It is the use of paranoid modes of expression by more or less normal people that makes the phenomenon significant.

Of course this term is pejorative, and it is meant to be; the paranoid style has a greater affinity for bad causes than good. But nothing really prevents a sound program or demand from being advocated in the paranoid style. Style has more to do with the way in which ideas are believed than with the truth or falsity of their content. I am interested here in getting at our political psychology through our political rhetoric. The paranoid style is an old and recurrent phenomenon in our public life which has been frequently linked with movements of suspicious discontent…
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Feb 13, 2016 - 12:14pm PT
How is it spying when you leave the door open(agreeing to TOS without understanding what you've agreed to), and sometimes even wave the datascrapers in off the street(clicking apps in which you allow the app to scrape not only your own data but that of your "Friends")?

Anyone who believes they can "hide" anything when using internet, unless they understand HOW to evade(and even then), is well, simple-minded in the Age of Data.

Clicked on Clive Bundy's FB page? A signal went somewhere, to someone who wants to know. But a lot of innocent people did/will do that, so a click isn't going to carry that much weight in the algorithm. Friended him of Liked his Page? Well....what, are ya stupid? A bigger blip just coursed through the intraweb veins to...whoever wants to know.

Commented? Well...what dd you say? Words like "Sympathy to the family of (that guy who was killed)" probably go unnoticed, but words like "Vengeance for the death of (that guy) prrrrobably add a little stone in the backpack of the traveler trekking over to whoever wants to know.

Shared Content from the page? The alg probably doesn't care if you joked about the stupidity of it, but maybe it does. Another stone in the backpack.

You saw the post about their crowdfunding for legal costs and clicked through? Probably not a big deal - lots of people rubberneck. But say there hey - you then donated to the legal fund on their crowdfund page? Uhhh...you have someone writing down your name.

So, on it goes, and when some amiable stranger just starts to chat you up at the gym, or the bar, you always go to after work and kinda out of the blue they start trying to bend the subject to talk of antigovernment crap - you know you've been made.

Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Feb 13, 2016 - 02:29pm PT
Escopeta: Could you kindly get a grip on your temper?

How can logic be served when you keep flipping out like that?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 13, 2016 - 03:17pm PT
Birdwatcher Nita,

So, when someone comes on here and offers an opinion that deviates from the "Libtard Sh#t Show Drum Circle" they get labeled as a troll?

But the One Liner Retards that litter the pages of this and other threads are just keeping the faith? And subsequently aren't worth calling out?

Man, you guys really get thrown for a wobbler when someone comes in and interrupts your socialist progressive leg humping and ball cupping sessions.



Woops, he's activated dick mode again.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 13, 2016 - 03:27pm PT
^^^^^

OLR
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 13, 2016 - 03:42pm PT
TRDF
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Feb 13, 2016 - 04:03pm PT

Escopeta
You should watch when you say something negative about Nita.
She is probably one of the best human beings on this earth.
So what if she/we disagree with your political rants.
You're throwing temper tantrums doesn't move this discussion
to any higher level.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 13, 2016 - 04:11pm PT
Steve W for the win.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 13, 2016 - 05:00pm PT
Is that what she was doing? Moving the discussion to a higher level? Right.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Feb 13, 2016 - 06:17pm PT
*
Whoa, i have been gone all day...


Shotgun Bryan, ...

I still agree with Happi's words.. You are the new guy & you came right out of the gate.. trolling people & sneering .

I know there are many other people that are rude here, but everybody, including you can set the tone for a >real conversation.

You have been kind of fair with me and a jackass ...but that old saying comes to mind... "you get respect when you give respect".
..........

I hope you can attend the ~ Yosemite Facelift this fall and meet quite a few of us taco heads..

It's a great event and people tend to be a bit more civil with each other after they meet in person.

Nita...

ps, I don't claim to be a Daisy, though i can .(-;
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 14, 2016 - 05:08am PT
That sounds delightful and worthy. Unfortunately I won't be able to attend.

I will double down on the giving part (again) but absent any rejoinder I suspect I will just go the way of the majority.
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Feb 14, 2016 - 07:41am PT
I won't be able to attend.

Wow, he finally said something nice!
monolith

climber
state of being
Feb 14, 2016 - 07:53am PT
Darwin

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 14, 2016 - 12:02pm PT


From Tweeters (Washington birding mailing list).


SIX THINGS YOU CAN DO TO HELP MALHEUR REFUGE
Friends,
Thanks for your concern and support for our beloved Malheur!
With the armed hostage-taking of Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, our nation's wildlife refuges have been thrust into the spotlight. This illegal seizure has stripped us of our rights as American citizens to make memories at this wildlife refuge. Such threats to our federal lands need to stop. National wildlife refuges belong to ALL Americans and we want Malheur back. It's apparent that few are aware of the incredible benefits wildlife refuges provide to communities and the local economy.
For every $1 Congress appropriates to run the Refuge System, nearly $5 is returned to local economies in jobs, sales, income and tax revenue. And that's on average. In many areas, wildlife refuges provide an even greater boost to the economy. Malheur is one such economic engine, returning over $7 for every $1 appropriated by Congress. Ironically, in spite of their economic value, our refuges are tragically underfunded and understaffed because of actions by actions of our elected representatives.
National wildlife refuges are special places. These lands consist of the rivers where veterans fly fish to assist in the healing process from PTSD, marshes where a parent takes their child hunting for the first time, open grasslands that become a child's first memory of an outdoor classroom and the lands where ranchers teach their children about the history of responsible land stewardship.
This incident has tragically kept refuge employees from doing their jobs, done damage to refuge grounds and facilities, insulted and distressed the Wadatika Burns Paiute Tribe, caused much emotional stress in the local and national community, and threatened Malheur’s ability to meet the Fish and Wildlife Services mission for Refuges: “working with others to conserve, protect, and enhance fish and wildlife and their habitats for the continuing benefit of the American people.”
Because of this threat to Malheur, we have had many people wanting to help through donations and membership, as well as hundreds of people offering to volunteer to help get Malheur back to normal. Please stand with Friends of Malheur National Wildlife Refuge to show your solidarity with Malheur Refuge and the National Wildlife System.
Here are some options to show your support and help keep refuges free and healthy. Please consider as many as you are willing:
1. Join and or contribute to Friends of Malheur National Wildlife Refuge: http://malheurfriends.org/ Our members receive regular eNews updates about refuge events, news, and volunteer opportunities.
2. Join and or contribute to the National Wildlife Refuge Association the national nonprofit focused on promoting and protecting the National Wildlife Refuge System: http://refugeassociation.org
3. Join or contribute to your local Refuge Friends Groups, where they occur. The Refuge Association has links to Friends Affiliates at: http://refugeassociation.org/friends-commu…/friends-groups/… ; you can also contact your local refuge’s to ask how you can help. You can find your local refuges here:
http://www.fws.gov/refuges/refugeLocatormaps/index.html
4. Write your senators and congressmen and urge them to support increased funding and staffing for the National Wildlife Refuge System. Sign up with the National Wildlife Refuge Association for Action Alerts:http://refugeassociation.org/action. Ask your legislators at all levels to support keeping public lands public for all Americans to enjoy.
5. Volunteer: Check out malheurfriends.org page for scheduled volunteer work parties and other opportunities. If you can’t come to Malheur, please offer to help at a local refuge.
6. Take your family, your children and grandchildren, your friends and neighbors and their children, to a refuge so they can learn and enjoy the great outdoors. Work to get kids outdoors, out in nature, so they connect and learn to build a future generation of supporters of nature and wild places.
Thanks to all of you for your support of National Wildlife Refuges!
Gary Ivey, President
Friends of Malheur National Wildlife Refuge
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 14, 2016 - 12:55pm PT
Great stuff Darwin.

Banquo, yes, but what does the double down on giving part mean??
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 14, 2016 - 02:17pm PT
Catching up with this thread after a road trip that included some skiing in Lavoy Finiicums back yard (Brianhead). I am now an expert on all things Utah, just ask Essy





SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Feb 15, 2016 - 01:54pm PT
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Feb 16, 2016 - 08:01am PT
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2016/02/11/3748602/koch-brothers-funding-bundy-agenda/
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 17, 2016 - 08:38am PT
The thread that keeps on giving.

I think this is an example of the Keystone Kowboys doing a better job of running the place than the feds for escopeta.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/firearms_explosives_and_trench.html#incart_most-readnews


The poop part is funny/sad. It is apparently a very small septic system that was cleaned frequently. Not designed for 30 people for weeks.

Finicum's Navy forgot their porta-potties.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 17, 2016 - 09:17am PT
It seems strangely poetic that they think the occupiers booby trapped things on the compound with the one and only combustible substance found on the refuge: The flammable liquid they use for setting the frequent controlled burns in the area. Apparently they use a lot of the stuff around there. Go figure.
monolith

climber
state of being
Feb 17, 2016 - 10:49am PT
Esco's kinda gullible.
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Kelly Morgan, Whitefish MT
Feb 17, 2016 - 11:09am PT
The Poohadists reject any form of Big Government sanitation.

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 17, 2016 - 11:11am PT
"Strangely poetic" At least he called it the refuge and not the Harney County Resource Center......

SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Feb 17, 2016 - 02:06pm PT

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 17, 2016 - 02:22pm PT
Perhaps they can talk the local ranchers into running swathers over the area like mine sweepers. That shouldn't be too much to ask given the pinnacle of cooperation going on over there between the Feds and the local ranchers.....
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Feb 17, 2016 - 05:16pm PT
FBI would have to be naive to not consider the possibility of set ups.

Frankly, it shows what a bunch of wannabe warriors the squatters actually were. They said they were prepared to defend themselves but lacked employing even the most basic of defensive strategies; instead expecting they would have a wild west shootout style encounter.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Feb 17, 2016 - 05:19pm PT
Losers losing badly. Expired Mayonaise.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Feb 17, 2016 - 05:20pm PT
Send in the bomb sniffing cows. Have a BBQ if they find anything.
kattz

climber
Feb 17, 2016 - 06:06pm PT
Time for leftist protesters (who've been violent and had committed plenty of vandalism, lootings, hate crimes and harassment) to join Mr. Bundy, finally. Equality.
kattz

climber
Feb 17, 2016 - 06:17pm PT
Shawna Cox had filed a legal complaint:

"CLAIM FOR DAMAGES
I am asking for criminal and civil penalties for the perpetrators that subjected me and
my witnesses to the crimes I have identified herein. I Claim I and the others involved in these
actions have suffered damages from the works of the devil in excess of $666,666,666,666.66 Six hundred sixty six billion, six hundred sixty six million, six hundred sixty six thousand, six hundred sixty six dollars and sixty six cents. "

The former had pretty much killed what could have been valid claims, such as:
"The intention of these law
3 professors and State and Federal Bar Association members is to create nobility for themselves,
4 their prosperity and an oligarchy. Evidence will show that many of these individuals held official
5 public positions and employment for generations and believe they are "entitledn to hold
6 controlling public offices."
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Feb 17, 2016 - 08:17pm PT
Woohoo! The feds have indicted four more of the CowQuida idiots for the Nevada Bundy Ranch standoff last year!

Ammon Bundy, brother Ryan Bundy, Ryan Payne and Peter Santilli -- already indicted in the armed takeover of a federal wildlife refuge in eastern Oregon -- now face federal indictment along with Cliven Bundy in the 2014 armed standoff near the Bundy ranch in Nevada.

The indictment charges the four with 16 felonies, including one count of conspiracy to commit an offense against the United States, one count of conspiring to impede or injure a federal officer, four counts of carrying a firearm in a crime of violence, two counts of assault on a federal officer, two counts of threatening a federal law enforcement officer, three counts of obstructing justice, two counts of interfering with interstate commerce by extortion and one count of interstate travel in aid of extortion.

It also alleges five counts of criminal forfeiture against each of the five defendants. If convicted of the offenses, they would be required to forfeit property obtained from the proceeds of their crimes, totaling at least $3 million, including any and all cattle at the so-called Bunkerville Allotment and Lake Mead National Recreational Area in Nevada. Firearms and ammunition used in the April 12, 2014, standoff with federal authorities also would be forfeited.

"The rule of law has been reaffirmed with these charges,'' said Nevada's U.S. Attorney Daniel G. Bogden, in a prepared statement. "Persons who use force and violence against federal law enforcement officers who are enforcing court orders and nearly causing catastrophic loss of life or injury to others, will be brought to justice.''

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/cliven_bundy_and_4_others_face.html
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 17, 2016 - 09:06pm PT
Hey Essy - the last thing the Feds need is ranchers helping them, 1200 people have already volunteered to help restore the refuge. That is more than all the "brave" morans that showed up and tucked tail at the first sign of danger.

Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 18, 2016 - 01:43am PT
This is getting complicated.

Are the Bundy sons et al going to trial in Oregon or in Nevada?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 18, 2016 - 03:30am PT
The way the whole gop has slithered to the fringe right makes me think the lot of them need a mandatory 'The Constitution for Idiots' course.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Feb 18, 2016 - 05:13am PT
Yeah, healyje, for a group of people who claim to be "patriots" they seem to know nothing about the Constitution.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 18, 2016 - 06:41am PT
Hey Essy - the last thing the Feds need is ranchers helping them, 1200 people have already volunteered to help restore the refuge. That is more than all the "brave" morans that showed up and tucked tail at the first sign of danger.

Bandwaggoners. I've been helping to restore the refuge since 1980.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Feb 18, 2016 - 06:44am PT
Constitution?
constitution- "the pysical character of the body". These fat lumps of weakness have none- per their rediculous list of supplies.

These pussified cheetos eaters didn't even dig a latrine! According to reports, there's freedom turds lying about everywhere.

Perhaps they can auction off the freedom turds for their legal fund. How much would a Thomas Payne turd go for on ebay these days?

Armed standoff/camping 101- Dig a fuking latrine!
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Feb 18, 2016 - 07:32am PT
One more thing-

Upon reviewing the commitment and discomfort these patriots were willing to endure-lol; please read about the Silent Sentinels and the Night of Terror.

In respect to our, armed patriot ranchers and women in combat, which I'm sure they're opposed to, I have an idea of who would represent better.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 18, 2016 - 12:12pm PT
Are the Bundy sons et al going to trial in Oregon or in Nevada?

Cliven is charged in Vegas for the Bunkerville incident in 2014, sons are charged first in Portland for the refuge terrorism, but will also be included in the Vegas indictment. Someof the other militia will be charged in both cases, including Pete Santill. They are going to be busy little defendants.

It would be funny if Obama commuted the Hammond's sentence before he leaves office.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 18, 2016 - 01:47pm PT
Friggin' Anders, still cracking me up after all these years!

I've got a thing about Canadian humor.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 18, 2016 - 04:04pm PT
Next on the list is Sherrif Palmer, the sherrif in Grant county the Ranch Stupidians were going to meet and who Lavoy was speeding to for protection when he committed suicide by cop.

It seems citizens , local police chief, and the state 911 director have filed complaints and the state licensing board says that if the allegations are true, he will lose his licence.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/state_police_board_seeks_inves.html#incart_big-photo
franky

Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
Feb 18, 2016 - 04:45pm PT
As insane as the occupiers were, they seem to have mainstream republican support.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Feb 18, 2016 - 05:15pm PT
How can Cruz "RETURN" land that has always been under federal title? Is he as ignorant as the Branch Stupidians? Or just a lying stack of sh#t, as my mother used to say.
kattz

climber
Feb 18, 2016 - 06:21pm PT
Got to love Ammon...

From his statement about the Feds:

"that they killed cattle, that they tased people, that they threw women on the ground"

yeah, "women" are right there, somewhere in-between "cattle" and "people".

Well "The maximum sentence is five years for conspiracy to commit an offense against the U.S., six years for conspiracy to impede and injure a federal officer; 20 years for assault on a federal officer; 10 years for threatening a federal law enforcement officer; 10 years for obstruction of justice, 20 years for interfering with interstate commerce by extortion, 20 years for interstate travel in aid of extortion and a five-year minimum for using and carrying a firearm in a crime of violence."
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Feb 18, 2016 - 08:58pm PT
Although the indictment is valid and likely justified, I find some sadness in envisioning the likely outcome for these prisoners. After all, they really believed they were right in their cause. Agee with them or not- they followed through with what they believe. Hand them that, at least.

The positive part of this debacle is that Malheur National Wildlife Refuge is now on everyone's map as a place to visit. Before this, I had never heard of it, but now plan to visit as a tourist. Last time I drove through Burns was in 1981; dustbowl, windswept,and seemingly deserted. Not any more!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 19, 2016 - 07:55am PT
ISIS believes in their cause too. Gotta give them that.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 19, 2016 - 08:26am PT
The Republicans and Democrats believe in their cause as well....based on some of the comments around here, they might be a tad more fanatical than ISIS about it.

I'm far more concerned about the amount of control and lasting impact our own government has over me than I will ever be about some random bogey man terrorist group. Domestic or foreign.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Feb 19, 2016 - 08:37am PT
Do you really think Hank done it this way?

Are these chumps gonna set up a proper prison gang and get organized? They're a few steps up from the old good ol' boys and neo neo-nutzi's. Somehow I don't think that they've got the minerals. Some of y'all are an embarrassment to honest white folk and if you loudmouthed fat slobs start a race war, ima turn you out myself.

Winky winky toilet sinky.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Feb 19, 2016 - 08:38am PT
Agee with them or not- they followed through with what they believe. Hand them that, at least.

I think, though I could be wrong, that what they "believed" was that the government would submit, or they would die as martyrs. The thought of a restricted life of years in prison didn't seem to really register, and I suppose that, at least for some of them, they are wondering why it DIDN'T.

Perhaps they were working under a false assumption the patriarch didn't get hauled away. If that is the case, then yes, it is sad. But I really do not know how someone could take the actions they did and NOT expect prison as a likely outcome.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 19, 2016 - 08:50am PT
The thought of a restricted life of years in prison didn't seem to really register, and I suppose that, at least for some of them, they are wondering why it DIDN'T.

It's beginning to sink in to 25 of them right about now, trust me.

Happie, I forgot to tell you how good your post was waaaaayyyy back about an actual civil war.



To see how truly whacked some of these folks are, look no further than the comments under Harney County Sheriffs facebook page under the 4-H Kids visit to law enforcement post. George Merkley and Graham Sandler are especially interesting. Graham goes way off the rails with his special hatred of Jews.
https://www.facebook.com/Harney-County-Sheriffs-Office-1053081328076653/
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Feb 19, 2016 - 09:19am PT
I confess to being a history buff and last night I watched several hours of American Civil War history on The History Channel.

I had managed to forget much of the “state’s rights” bluster that was fueled by slave-owners & hot-heads, that led up to the Southern States seceding & starting the Civil War.

I have to confess that although the CowQuida idiots that occupied Malheur are often called domestic terrorists, they likely think of themselves as revolutionaries.

The romance of armed revolution against government has somehow found a number of followers among those who perceive our current system of government as unjust & unfair.

When I reflect on how much our nation has changed since Civil War times, I really can’t believe how the CowQuida idiots could think they would get away with armed insurrection & seizure of Government facilities.

1860: For communication, telegraphs were the fastest. For transportation, a sketchy steam-powered railroad & steamboat system, & otherwise sailing ships, horses, and walking. For media: newspapers & word of mouth.

Perhaps those CowQuidists currently incarcerated can catch up on their reading of history & note the lack of success here for revolutions since the one that started our nation 240 years ago.

George Santayana, 1862-1953, was a philosopher, essayist, poet and novelist.

Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

This famous statement has produced many paraphrases and variants:
Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Those who do not remember their past are condemned to repeat their mistakes.
Those who do not read history are doomed to repeat it. Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of their predecessors are destined to repeat them.
Those who do not know history's mistakes are doomed to repeat them
.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_Santayana

Majid_S

Mountain climber
Karkoekstan
Feb 19, 2016 - 09:48am PT
www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiT_uYWqwX8&ebc=ANyPxKptzeqmFc3yy_sJlVfBhSX7P82t8IsIwMBCcJQzqDWopIfxmBspfc0XlySVb5g0q710U5B5W_ZaMBkeOGfMixhdJZzdhQ
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 19, 2016 - 10:37am PT
Yeah, but what does Ron think?
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 19, 2016 - 11:10am PT
While armed militants stomped around Tim Blount’s Harney County home, he was busy rolling up donations and adding members to his group.

Blount, executive director of the Friends of Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, says the 41-day occupation of the 187,757-acre refuge, where he lives, had a big silver lining for the nonprofit organization. Thanks to the national spotlight, the Friends raised more than $30,000 in donations during the past month and saw its membership skyrocket from 130 to 700 members.

That’s pretty good for a nonprofit listing about $72,085 in assets on its 2014 tax documents (the most recent year available).

http://portlandtribune.com/pt/9-news/294132-171512-donations-pile-up-as-refuge-supporters-fight-standoff-with-big-bucks
kattz

climber
Feb 19, 2016 - 06:23pm PT
Facebook is priceless...a giant database of political opinions of every single fool who uses it, complete with facial recognition and all kinds of identifying details. And people keep posting...on Harney County Sheriff's page, on Bundy Ranch page...just keep posting. Voluntarily filling out FBI files on themselves, pretty patriotic.
kattz

climber
Feb 19, 2016 - 07:14pm PT
The reason why the thought of ending up locked up and being stuck in a cage wasn't registering with them earlier is probably massive entitlement of all Bundys... probably has everything to do with their childhood, which I bet was spent as spoilt daddy's brats and always feeling like top dogs, never facing real adversity or even a good spanking. Ammon got a 500K business loan from the US government, basically, because he couldn't obtain private financing. Considering that somewhere in the 3rd word such loan would be backed by his life, such as himself and his family buried alive in concrete in case of non-payment...and dare you to badmouth your lender...gonna get some beefy guys show up and light up your hair....this is another sign of entitlement. Their behavior is outright childish.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Feb 23, 2016 - 04:46pm PT
Rather than start another politard thread, I'll share this distressing news here.

House Moves On Bills That Would Allow States To Seize Millions Of Acres Of Public Lands!

Less than two weeks after the arrest of Cliven Bundy and the armed militants who were occupying the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Oregon, the U.S. House of Representatives will consider three bills that would dispose of vast stretches of national forests and other public lands across the country.

The bills, which will be heard in a meeting of the House Natural Resources Committee on Thursday, represent an escalation of the political battle being waged by the Koch brothers’ political network, anti-government extremist groups, and a small group of conservative politicians led by the committee’s chairman, U.S. Representative Rob Bishop (R-UT).

The first bill, introduced by Representative Don Young from Alaska (R), would allow any state to seize control and ownership of up to 2 million acres of national forests within its borders — an area nearly the size of Yellowstone National Park. A state would then be able to auction off the lands to private ownership or for mining, logging, and drilling.
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2016/02/23/3752342/bundy-copycat-bills-public-lands/
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Feb 23, 2016 - 04:55pm PT
That'll go nowhere.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 23, 2016 - 05:02pm PT
Sweet. Maybe I will bid on Idaho's 2 million acres. I can think of a perfect pitch for it.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 23, 2016 - 05:03pm PT
I'm far more concerned about the amount of control and lasting impact our own government has over me than I will ever be about some random bogey man terrorist group. Domestic or foreign.

Well, the first thing you ought to do then is get off the dole and move out of Idaho which has the one of the lowest GDPs per capita in the country and lives large off the federal tit.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Feb 23, 2016 - 05:10pm PT
Escopeta: I'm still savoring my part ownership of the 32,621,631 acres of land We Americans own in Idaho.

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42346.pdf
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 23, 2016 - 05:19pm PT
You won't be allowed on my 2 million acres.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Feb 23, 2016 - 05:27pm PT
Escopeta? Re your declaration:

You won't be allowed on my 2 million acres.


It's going to be kind of boring sitting around with you & Idaho's Cuban-Mormon U.S. Representative Raul Labrador & Ted Cruz, discussing fine points of the Bible, the U.S. Constitution, & not drinking.

Glad I'm going to miss it.

I'll be having fun elsewhere, or in Hell.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 23, 2016 - 05:31pm PT
We will make signs posted up on every other fence posts that says "Public Welcome" and then at the bottom it will say "Except Fritzy"
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 23, 2016 - 05:56pm PT
So let's see. That means I would be able to file for 3,125 landowner tags for deer, elk and antelope.

I think this might work out. Hope it passes....
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Feb 23, 2016 - 07:09pm PT
Escopeta! I will be honored to be excluded from the public-lands you dream of stealing from the American Public.

I'm voting for "The Donald" in Idaho's March 8th. Republican primary for one-reason only. He's the only Republican candidate that didn't pander to your fellow Bundy-nuts that want to grab OUR Federal lands. (well maybe two reasons, if my voting for Trump also pisses you off?)

LAS VEGAS, NV — Ahead of Tuesday night’s Republican caucuses, Sen. Ted Cruz is attempting to win over Nevada voters by channeling the state’s recently indicted rogue rancher and Oregon occupation instigator Cliven Bundy.

“Eighty percent of the state of Nevada is owned by the federal government. That is going to end,” he told hundreds of supporters in Henderson on Sunday night, standing in front of a banner depicting a mountain range with bold red letters reading, ‘RETURN OUR LAND.’

“The land of Nevada needs to be owned by the state of Nevada,” Cruz told the crowd, “or even better, the people of Nevada.”

On Monday, when he delivered the same speech to a crowd of wealthy retirees in the posh suburb of Summerlin, Las Vegas resident Vinny Spotleson stood up and challenged him, saying that most Nevadans, including a majority of Republicans, want public land to stay public. “Trump is the only candidate to come out against privatizing public land, and he’s expected to win here,” he noted. “And even though Cruz has distanced himself from Cliven Bundy, he continues to have the same political objectives as Cliven Bundy, to take all the land away from the public and put it in private hands. When they talk about ‘opening up’ federal land, they’re not talking about everyone being able to enjoy the outdoors. It’s because they want to sell it off to oil drilling and fracking and mining. Just look at what happened in Cruz’s own state of Texas, where so much land has been auctioned off and they’re drilling all over. We don’t want to see that here.”

Spotleson, who used to work for the Sierra Club and is currently running for the Nevada State Assembly, said he fears Cruz’s proposal would threaten everything he values about his home state.

Spotleson is a Democrat, but Nevada Republicans also told ThinkProgress they take issue with Cruz’s call for land privatization, and are “embarrassed” by the association with the Bundys’ cause.
The federal government doesn’t own the property, they manage it for the rest of us.

Las Vegas resident Ralph Morales, who owns a cattle ranch in Alamo, Nevada, said he was frustrated with Cruz for “not telling the truth.”
“The reality is that the federal government doesn’t own the property, they manage it for the rest of us, because we ask them to. It’s called the Bureau of Land Management,” he stressed. “Believe it or not, they’re doing us a favor. We’re talking about a lot of vast lands. I’m not going to buy it. I sure as hell don’t want to. So it just sits there, and what do we do with it? Do we give it to the states? No. We already have a big enough budget as it is. We don’t have enough money to take care of a lot of open land.”

Peering out from under the wide brim of a black cowboy hat, Morales said he appreciates that under current law, any time the federal government wants to sell off a piece of land, “they actually have to ask the American people and Congress.” While he agrees with the Bundys’ call for cattle ranchers to have more grazing rights on federal land, he says the family that participated in two armed standoffs with the federal government “were wrong in what they did.”

Morales plans to caucus on Tuesday night for Trump, who has said he wants to “keep the lands great,” adding, “I don’t think it’s something that should be sold.” Cruz has gone after Trump in TV ads and on Twitter in the lead-up to the caucuses, saying, “Donald Trump wants to keep big government in charge. That’s ridiculous.”

Cruz has also aligned himself with Nevada Assembly member Michele Fiore, a major supporter of the Bundys’ armed occupations who has introduced a bill to allow Nevada to seize federal lands. Though Cruz has denounced the Bundys’ past racist remarks and called for them to “stand down” in Oregon, Fiore remains a key member of his campaign’s Nevada leadership team.
But even die-hard Cruz supporters, like Henderson resident Lisa, who declined to give her last name, said they were less than enthusiastic about his connection with the Bundys.

“It’s been a little bit embarrassing when people back East have asked me if I agree with those people, because I’m not so sure I do,” she said. Describing herself as “a little bit neutral” on the federal land issue, Lisa told ThinkProgress, “I was surprised when I moved here that 80 percent of the land in Nevada is owned by the federal government, but there may be good reasons for that.”

One of those reasons, critics argue, is that privatizing Nevada’s vast public lands would deal a severe blow to the state’s economy. Outdoor recreation in Nevada, which relies almost exclusively on access to national public lands, contributes an estimated $14.9 billion in consumer spending every year and supports 148,000 jobs in the state.

Hunters and fishers worry too that plans to seize federal land would lock them out of the habitats they can currently access. “These game-rich areas that currently belong to all of us will be developed or sold to large corporations, degrading critical habitat and locking out millions of sportsmen,” the magazine Field and Stream cautioned last year. “I can’t help but think that if Theodore Roosevelt could see the current scam being peddled to American sportsmen he’d be fighting mad.”

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2016/02/23/3752319/cruz-bundys-nevada/
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Feb 23, 2016 - 10:16pm PT
Escopeta! I think you had best get used to sharing OUR PUBLIC lands with US.

Per Trump's win in Nevada tonight.

With limited time, Cruz never figured out how to win those voters back. In a TV ad, and in speeches, Cruz promised to hand over the 85 percent of Nevada land owned by the federal government over to the state. It drew applause – and some protesters – but did not move votes.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-gets-a-third-straight-win-in-nevada-caucuses/ar-BBpT3yB
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 24, 2016 - 07:02am PT
Ha. Until he puts a sign up that says "Trumpville" and keeps you out just like I would.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 24, 2016 - 08:06am PT
Are the Y'allqueda crew still occupying limited cell space? Good!!
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Feb 24, 2016 - 08:30am PT
Cruz said that? What a sonofabitch! He IS a lying sack of sh#t.

And still, Cruz came in third.

BTW most of what you need to know about Ted Cruz you can find out by following the Twitter feed of Ted's real-life freshman year roommate from Princeton. An example:

Craig Mazin ✔ ‎@clmazin
Ted Cruz's dad seems to be the product of post traumatic stress disorder and Jack Chick tracts. Ted seems to be the product of his dad.
11:18 AM - 31 Oct 2013
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 24, 2016 - 09:09am PT
It’s because they want to sell it off to oil drilling and fracking and mining. Just look at what happened in Cruz’s own state of Texas, where so much land has been auctioned off and they’re drilling all over. We don’t want to see that here

What? Do you people realize that the BLM allows mining and drilling on most of its lands? The permit is a pain in the ass, but I can do one in about a day.

You can frack all over BLM land, unless it is in a wilderness study area, or designated wilderness. Fracking isn't the way most dullards imagine. No. The water and sand does not come to the surface. The fractures take place 2 miles deep. You can't tell a horizontal well from a vertical well at the surface. They are equipped just the same.

Drilling-wise, BLM land is sort of like drilling offshore. In both cases, the government gets the royalty payment.

Geez.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2016 - 09:13am PT
Cruz hopped on the crazy train with Michelle Fiore, Rachel Maddow is going to make sure Cruz is linked at the hip with Fiore on this issue.


http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/ted-cruz-targets-the-bundy-vote-in-nevada-629715011727
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 3, 2016 - 03:51pm PT
CONCORD, N.H. (AP) - Federal authorities on Thursday arrested a New Hampshire man for his role in a standoff by Nevada ranchers opposed to federal control of public lands.

Gerald DeLemus, of Rochester, was named in an indictment in Nevada as a "mid-level leader" and organizer of a conspiracy to recruit, organize, train and provide support to armed men and other followers of rancher Cliven Bundy.

DeLemus, a U.S. Marine Corps veteran and tea party activist, last year signed on as a member of presidential candidate Donald Trump's New Hampshire veterans coalition. A July news release posted on Trump's website listed DeLemus as a co-chair.

Bundy was arrested last month on charges stemming from a 2014 armed standoff with federal officials in Nevada who were rounding up Bundy's cattle over unpaid grazing fees.

DeLemus, 61, was arrested Thursday and was due to appear federal court in Concord later in the day. Calls to DeLemus' court-appointed attorney and his wife, Republican state Rep. Susan DeLemus, were not immediately returned.

Federal prosecutors asked a judge to keep DeLemus locked up pending his trial, saying his participation in the Bundy standoff showed his "desire and willingness" to kill police officers.

"DeLemus used guns and threats of violence to intimidate and interfere with federal law enforcement officers," Assistant U.S. Attorney Mark Zuckerman wrote.

The indictment also names Bundy and at least four others; parts of it are redacted. It says DeLemus "organized and led armed patrols and security checkpoints."

From April 12 to at least the end of May 2014, DeLemus and others set up the checkpoints and patrols to "prevent and deter law enforcement actions against the conspirators, including recovering the extorted cattle," according to the indictment.

The charges include conspiracy to commit an offense against the United States; threatening a federal law enforcement officer; obstruction of justice; attempting to impede or injure a federal law enforcement officer; and several firearms charges.

Last year, DeLemus proposed a "Draw Muhammad" art contest of the prophet weeks after two gunmen were killed and a security guard injured outside of a similar contest in Garland, Texas. The contests were planned after a gunman killed 12 people at the Paris magazine Charlie Hebdo for publishing satirical pictures of Muhammad.

DeLemus also traveled to Oregon this year during a similar standoff at a national wildlife refuge.

"I love the Bundys," DeLemus said last month. "But they made a tactical mistake going out to that refuge. They were portrayed as armed anti-government protesters taking over government buildings. There was a lot of fear."

At the time of his arrest, DeLemus was running for Strafford County sheriff.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 3, 2016 - 04:28pm PT
It's a perfect time to bring the hammer down on all these extremophiles; better to get them now before trump whips them up any further.
zBrown

Ice climber
Mar 3, 2016 - 05:37pm PT
What up bitch? Looks like you're holding a flush.

At the family home in Nevada, Cliven Bundy’s wife, Carol, acknowledged that her husband and sons Ammon, Ryan, Melvin and David Bundy were in federal custody. The mother of 14 children pleaded for prayer and echoed her husband’s call to fight government overreach.

“I truly believe this is showing the federal government thinks they have unlimited power over we the people,” Carol Bundy told The Associated Press in a brief telephone interview. “What kind of government do we have?”

“This is going to be won in the court of public opinion,” she added. “When we the people make a stand, that’s when we’ll win.”
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 3, 2016 - 06:39pm PT
Per Mrs Bundy's quote on Zbrown's post:

“This is going to be won in the court of public opinion,” she added. “When we the people make a stand, that’s when we’ll win.”

It looks like the Bundy Daze are rapidly coming to a close. I am very happy that a group of right-wing paranoids that showed up last year in Nevada, ready & willing to shoot it out to defend Bundy's illegal acts, are now getting arrested and jailed.

And maybe his not so happy cattle can be moved off OUR overgrazed desert.


Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 3, 2016 - 07:06pm PT
Those cows look like they could snap at any moment. I mean it, they look vicious.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 3, 2016 - 08:08pm PT
Hay! Escopeta! You pals with any of these folks?

4 Idaho Men Indicted in Assault on Federal Officers, Conspiracy against U.S.
LAS VEGAS • Four Idaho residents, including two Hailey men, were named in a federal indictment that accuses renegade Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy and 18 others of conspiracy, obstruction, assault, threatening federal officers and other charges in a 2014 armed standoff over grazing cattle on U.S. land near Bundy’s ranch.

Bundy and 18 other people’s names appeared in a 16-count indictment Thursday filed in United States District Court in Nevada. Seven people were already in custody, while 12 others were arrested Thursday.

They include Eric J. Parker, 32, and Steven A. Stewart, 36, both of Hailey, Todd C. Engel, 48, of Boundary County and O. Scott Drexler, 44, of Challis.
http://magicvalley.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/idaho-men-indicted-in-assault-on-federal-officers-conspiracy-against/article_37810bfb-80e1-5147-8d9c-2e763f8d928b.html#utm_source=magicvalley.com&utm_campaign=%2Femail-updates%2Fbreaking%2F&utm_medium=email&utm_content=read%20more
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Mar 4, 2016 - 05:39am PT
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/03/03/grand-jury-charges-14-more-people-for-2014-standoff-at-bundy-ranch/

Fourteen more people are facing federal charges in connection with a 2014 armed standoff between backers of Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy and law enforcement agents who sought to round up his cattle for illegally grazing on public land.

In a superseding indictment filed in U.S. District Court in Nevada, the Justice Department charged Bundy and his supporters with a myriad of criminal counts, including conspiracy to commit an offense against the United States, conspiracy to impede or injure a federal officer, assault on a federal officer, interference with interstate commerce by extortion and using and carrying a firearm in relation to a crime of violence. Bundy himself and four others had already been charged, though the Justice Department said 12 more people were arrested and two more — already in custody for the recent takeover of a remote wildlife refuge in Oregon — were slapped with fresh criminal counts.

The charges stem from an incident in Bunkverville, Nev., in April 2014 that served as a sort-of flash point for those opposed generally to government intervention and to federal management of western lands. When federal authorities moved in to seize Bundy’s cattle — claiming he had “trespassed” for 20 years in refusing to obtain the proper permits and pay the appropriate fees — the rancher rounded up hundreds of people, many of them armed, to his defense.



Those charged could face heavy penalties. Assault on a federal officer, for example, carries a 20-year maximum penalty, as does interference with interstate commerce by extortion.

The Justice Department identified those newly charged as Melvin D. Bundy, 41, of Round Mountain, Nev.; David H. Bundy, 39, of Delta, Utah; Brian D. Cavalier, 44, of Bunkerville; Blaine Cooper, 36, of Humboldt, Ariz.; Gerald A. DeLemus, 61, of Rochester, N.H.; Eric J. Parker, 32, of Hailey, Idaho; O. Scott Drexler, 44, of Challis, Idaho; Richard R. Lovelien, 52, of Westville, Okla.; Steven A. Stewart, 36, of Hailey; Todd C. Engel, 48, of Boundary County, Idaho; Gregory P. Burleson, 52, of Phoenix; Joseph D. O’Shaughnessy, 43, of Cottonwood, Ariz.; and Micah L. McGuire, 31, and Jason D. Woods, 30, both of Chandler, Ariz. Those already charged were Cliven Bundy, 69, of Bunkerville; Ryan C. Bundy, 43, of Mesquite, Nev.; Ammon E. Bundy, 40, of Emmet, Idaho; Ryan W. Payne, 32, of Anaconda, Mont.; and Santilli, 50, of Cincinnati.
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Mar 4, 2016 - 06:09am PT
Thanks for posting that, Rmuir, Rob, right? Anyway, cool to see those lunatics taking it in the shorts. Had they been black men in the city, they'd long be full of holes. Cops would've lit up that crowd like The battle of Verdon. I was wondering when that first group was going to see some legal repercussions for their actions. Sorry, Yeeehawdists, you don't get to point guns at law enforcement officers.

BAd
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 4, 2016 - 06:18am PT
It's embarrassing that it took this long but maybe this was the right play. Let things cool off a bit and then nail everyone. The charges filed against the NH dude are seriously, big time, not f*#king around charges.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 4, 2016 - 06:58am PT
Those cows are ruthless I'm telling you. Plus, the wild horses (which probably outnumber them 5:1) are in on it also. They can kick.

Just more hyperbole by the government apologists.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 4, 2016 - 07:44am PT
The Bundy family occupation of federal spaces is growing.

GOOD!!
John M

climber
Mar 4, 2016 - 07:50am PT
Just more hyperbole by the government apologists.

this kind of rhetoric does nothing to further understanding. Its divisive, mean spirited, and only meant as an insult. "government apologist" is also hyperbole, which is kind of ironic. I imagine you support at least some government, does that make you a government apologist?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 4, 2016 - 08:00am PT
So what does beef taste like that's been raised on jimson weed and sagebrush?
Doesn't sound too gud to me.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 4, 2016 - 08:05am PT
Jimson weed beef makes you want to dig out your Dark Side Of The Moon album, so it's not all bad.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 4, 2016 - 08:15am PT
Boy, howdy, and if only them cows thats been grazing up yonder round Area 51 could talk, huh?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 4, 2016 - 08:19am PT
Reilly posted
So what does beef taste like that's been raised on jimson weed and sagebrush?

Not to mention a steady diet of white entitlement.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 4, 2016 - 08:30am PT
Let's hope the residents of Malheur County vote down a proposal to make 2.5 million more acres of land locked in with Monument status.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 4, 2016 - 08:38am PT
HDDJ, is there ever a day that you wake up and momentarily forget you're shouldering an
unduly high proportion of the White Man's Burden?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 4, 2016 - 08:49am PT
Shh, don't tell him. He's obviously been carrying mine for quite some time now and I don't want it back.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 4, 2016 - 09:28am PT
Reilly posted
HDDJ, is there ever a day that you wake up and momentarily forget you're shouldering an
unduly high proportion of the White Man's Burden?

Quite the opposite, actually. I find it quite freeing to not be constantly making excuses for racism. You should try it.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Mar 4, 2016 - 09:49am PT
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/03/03/grand-jury-charges-14-more-people-for-2014-standoff-at-bundy-ranch/
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 4, 2016 - 10:04am PT
Oh, Holy One, take yer didactic pontificating to another ranch - love me both Anguses and
Holsteins as well as harboring a soft spot for Guernseys.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 4, 2016 - 10:13am PT
Everyone knows that Hari Krishnas are the Real Bovinists.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 4, 2016 - 10:35am PT
I recall the Clinton administration reclassified the job description of Cowboy to eliminate the sexism in the term.

They became Bovine Beings.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Mar 4, 2016 - 11:13am PT
HDDJ, is there ever a day that you wake up and momentarily forget you're shouldering an
unduly high proportion of the White Man's Burden?

I for one thank him... He carries mine too.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 4, 2016 - 01:56pm PT
this kind of rhetoric does nothing to further understanding. Its divisive, mean spirited, and only meant as an insult.

Yes, you are correct. Very astute.

Anyone that attempts to somehow inflate the urgency and perfidiously aggrandize the situation with Bundy's cattle by making them seem like its some great burden to round them up and make it seem like its a matter of public urgency deserves that type of response.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 4, 2016 - 02:52pm PT
Don't push people out of their comfort zones. You're dealing with fragile egos here.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Mar 4, 2016 - 03:15pm PT
Quite the opposite, actually. I find it quite freeing to not be constantly making excuses for racism. You should try it.

Don't push people out of their comfort zones. You're dealing with fragile egos here.


Two knock-outs before the 6:00 news....(-;

BTW, The Militia still sucks...
dang...back to work....
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 6, 2016 - 07:24pm PT
Idaho's Republican primary is this Tuesday. The Spokane newspaper that also covers Idaho news had this article today. http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/outdoors/2016/mar/06/idaho-cruz-says-fed-should-transfer-public-lands-states-private-interests/

SUNDAY, MARCH 6, 2016, 4:11 P.M.

In Idaho, Cruz says feds should transfer public lands to states, private interests
PUBLIC LANDS -- Hunters, anglers, hikers, nature lovers, huckleberry pickers -- all you should take note of this issue.

Stumping for the Republican presidential nomination in Idaho Saturday, Sen. Ted Cruz, R-Texas, says the federal government should get out of public lands management.

Remember, he lives in TEXAS. He doesn't know any better. Try to find some public land for hunting in TEXAS.

With about 2 percent of the state in federal lands jurisdiction, Texans flood to Colorado and other public land states to hunt each year.

Listen to Cruz spell it out in his own words in this short the video report from the Idaho Statesman.

When he says the land would be better managed by "the people," he doesn't mean people like you and me (we already have part interest in the land under federal management); Cruz means people like the Wilks brothers. Google that, or better yet, ask a Central Montanan.

Rubio is also wasting some time campaigning in Idaho. He was supporting stealing OUR public lands from US before the Nevada primary and I expect more of the same.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 7, 2016 - 07:35am PT
You forgot mushroom pickers. God I hate morel pickers. Hopefully they will close the forests to those annoying people.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 7, 2016 - 07:43am PT
I'm still confused how my love of cows makes me a racist but them I'm equally at a loss to
explain the depth of poor reading comprehension here that has lumped me with the Bundys.
I will be generous and just put that down to the comrades circling the wagons because it is a
good solidarity exercise.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 7, 2016 - 08:13am PT
Well, obviously if you like cows you are a Bundy collaborator. Duh.
WBraun

climber
Mar 7, 2016 - 08:24am PT
Reilly -- "I'm still confused how my love of cows makes me a racist"

Way too many nutcases on this forum Reilly.

These insane loons on this forum will convert anything coming out of their sterile brains into bizarre lunatic projections onto the world.

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 8, 2016 - 01:57pm PT
new video released, pretty intense. What it was like to take hte final ride with Lavoy Finicum

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/03/what_oregon_standoff_investiga.html#incart_maj-story-1

The deluded widow

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Mar 8, 2016 - 02:49pm PT
Those poor dumb, clueless bastards.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 8, 2016 - 04:33pm PT
"Investigators deem Lavoy Finicum's shooting justified and necessary."

Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 8, 2016 - 05:15pm PT
NBC News ran a spot tonight, with the video taken inside the SUV. In the video, you can hear Lavoy Finicum repeatedly screaming at the cops to shoot him. When he reached for his hidden 9mm Ruger, they obliged him.

Suicide by cop.

The only folks I feel bad for, are the cops that had to shoot him.

Of course, Finicum had written of his shoot-out fantasies in his e-novel.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 8, 2016 - 10:12pm PT
You forgot mushroom pickers. God I hate morel pickers. Hopefully they will close the forests to those annoying people.

Try that in these parts you better be packing some serious heat because 'morel pickers' out here are carrying and get pretty nasty about their turf.

Finicum: having been arrested a couple of times with weapons drawn, I have to say it's not rocket science - hands far from torso where they can be seen and no sudden moves. And of course, the old saw still cuts wood: 'hang loose, stay calm, admit nothing'.

Finicum - aside from showing belligerent intent by trying to blow the road block and almost hitting an officer - blew both of the basic rules: hands in motion, sudden move to the torso, plain as day in the video - not too bright.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 9, 2016 - 12:24am PT
5,291 - 609 against. It doesn't mean anything except the fantasy of the model relationship between ranchers and Feds is just that, fantasy.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 9, 2016 - 12:54am PT
It doesn't mean anything except the fantasy of the model relationship between ranchers and Feds is just that, fantasy.

The part of the relationship isn't fantasy is the part where almost all of them are subsidized by the feds - i.e. they're on dole just like the Bundys. So all the bitching is really about wanting more fed money in the form of free resources.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 9, 2016 - 06:35am PT
You'll get no argument from me regarding eliminating subsidies. Let's start eliminating them tomorrow. All of them. How about we start with WICS. That work for you?

In the meantime, why don't the Feds just outlaw mining on these lands since that's their main complaint.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 9, 2016 - 06:54am PT
How about we start with WICS.

Escopeta's priority: ensuring that poor infants and their mothers are allowed to starve to death as they have failed to prove their value to the Great Marketplace forever may it reign.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Mar 9, 2016 - 06:59am PT
HDDJ, once you're of no use to the market, why should the market have any concern for you?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 9, 2016 - 07:15am PT
I mean, what value are babies anyway? Before all this burdensome government regulation you could at least count on them joining the work force in a couple years and you didn't have to bother educating them. Now it's just ridiculous! We have to house and feed these brats as well as pay for public schooling until they're 18? Unconscionable!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 9, 2016 - 07:42am PT
What does 5,291-696 against mean? I missed something.
WBraun

climber
Mar 9, 2016 - 07:44am PT
Here's the video of inside LaVoy Finicum's truck synced to the aerial video of the traffic stop, his evasive attempt, and ultimate shooting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw9sfuFGghY
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 9, 2016 - 07:57am PT
Sad but pretty clear.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 9, 2016 - 08:03am PT
HDDJ, once you're of no use to the market, why should the market have any concern for you?

Ah, American exceptionalism at play, again.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Mar 9, 2016 - 08:14am PT
I mean, what value are babies anyway?

They are nothing but a drag on the economy, but never fear! The market will find ways to utilize them to their best advantage. That's the miracle of the free market.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 9, 2016 - 08:21am PT
A great read!
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Mar 9, 2016 - 06:48pm PT

From the Associated Press, March 9, 2016. . .

PORTLAND, Ore. — The federal government on Wednesday leveled additional charges against Ammon Bundy and dozens of others who staged an armed takeover of a national wildlife refuge in Oregon. One weapons allegation carries the possibility of life in prison.

A grand jury indicted Bundy and most of his co-defendants on a new charge of firearms possession in a federal facility after the group seized the nature preserve in January to oppose U.S. land restrictions. Others are accused of a second firearms allegation, theft or damaging an archaeological site considered sacred to the Burns Paiute Tribe.

The new charges come as the government cracks down on Bundy, his family and others for leading armed standoffs in a long-running dispute over management of public lands in the Western U.S. Federal authorities have charged Bundy's father, Cliven Bundy, and several others in recent months with conspiracy, assault and threats in a 2014 armed standoff over grazing rights near the patriarch's Nevada ranch.

In a packed courtroom in Portland, the younger Bundy and others pleaded not guilty to the new allegations Wednesday. All 26 defendants were previously charged with conspiracy to impede officers of the United States.

Ammon Bundy's attorneys told the judge that he wanted to be advised of his rights. U.S. District Court Judge Anna Brown denied the request, noting that they were read at three prior court appearances.

"I know I have no rights, so thank you," Bundy said.

He and eight others, including his brother Ryan, were charged with carrying a firearm in relation to a crime of violence, which has a maximum penalty of life in prison.

Oregon standoff in Harney County final hours: 11, 2016 file photo, authorities and demonstrators wait at the Narrows roadblock near the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge near Burns, Ore. Dozens of armed occupiers who took over a national wildlife refuge in Oregon have been indicted on additional charges. An indictment unsealed Wednesday, March 9, reveals new counts against group leader Ammon Bundy and more than two dozen other defendants who were indicted last month on a federal conspiracy charge. (Thomas Boyd/The Oregonian via AP,File) MAGS OUT; TV OUT; NO LOCAL INTERNET; THE MERCURY OUT; WILLAMETTE WEEK OUT; PAMPLIN MEDIA GROUP OUT; MANDATORY CREDIT © Provided by Associated Press 11, 2016 file photo, authorities and demonstrators wait at the Narrows roadblock near the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge near Burns, Ore. Dozens of armed occupiers who took over a national wildlife refuge in… Sean Anderson and a defendant whose name was redacted from the indictment were charged with damaging the tribal site "by means of excavation and the use of heavy equipment," Assistant U.S. Attorney Ethan Knight said.

Three other occupiers were charged with theft of government property. Kenneth Medenbach took a Ford pickup, while Ryan Bundy and Jon Ritzheimer stole cameras valued at more than $1,000, the indictment says.

Prosecutors have said the armed group prevented government workers from doing their jobs and threatened violence against authorities that tried to end the 41-day occupation.

The judge scrapped an April trial date, agreeing with prosecutors to designate the case as "complex." The move ends the right to a speedy trial sought by the defendants. The judge cited the volume of evidence and number of defendants.

"I think any person looking at this room would have to concede this case is complex," said Brown, peering down at three rows of tables filled with men in prison garb and their defense attorneys.

Brown said she would wait until next month to schedule a date.

The indictment comes a day after a county prosecutor concluded that Oregon police were justified in shooting Arizona rancher Robert "LaVoy" Finicum, a key figure in the standoff who died during a Jan. 26 traffic stop that also led to the arrests of the Bundy brothers and others.

However, FBI agents are under investigation for failing to disclose they fired two shots during the confrontation with Finicum as he exited his truck. Neither of those shots hit Finicum. Oregon authorities say one of the two rounds hit the roof of the truck.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 9, 2016 - 10:03pm PT
Good. I hope they occupy some federal territory for a long long time.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Mar 10, 2016 - 01:09am PT
You'll get no argument from me regarding eliminating subsidies. Let's start eliminating them tomorrow. All of them. How about we start with WICS. That work for you?

Great. We start with eliminating the oil depletion allowance, the mining depletion allowance, both on land you don't own, the subsidies for corn, wheat, upland cotton, rice, soybean, growing hay in deserts, and the farm income subsidy for not growing anything at all. Add the drought subsidies, tax exempt status for the NFL, MLB, stadium subsidies, and oh, yeah, I want back the $51 million we gave Volkwagen for producing clean cars.

Cut capital gain tax shelters for paying high interest on loans you make to yourself to turn income into Capital gains....the rich are the biggest recipients of free money.

And water subsidies...bust the Colorado River dams all to hell and let water flow to the sea again. Those damned desert dwellers can relocate to somewhere that makes sense. I'm not sure why somebody in a desert in Arizona should pay less for water than somebody like me who lives in a rain forest and me having to pay for it. It might be fun to see Jaguars in the river delta jungle like the conquistadors described.

Here in Portland we used sewer money dedicated to keeping sh#t out of the Willamette River to build a headquarters for the Royal Rosarians, whose sole function is to stand around in white suits at the Rose festival parade.

That's half a trillion dollars in subsidies each year. When do we start?
P
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Mar 10, 2016 - 05:33am PT
Great. We start with eliminating the oil depletion allowance,...

It's more fun to let babies suffer with malnutrition.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 10, 2016 - 05:35am PT
Gary posted
It's more fun to let babies suffer with malnutrition.

How else will we foster the next generation of developmentally delayed adults with health problems and low job skills that we can poor shame?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 10, 2016 - 06:34am PT

That's half a trillion dollars in subsidies each year. When do we start?


Is today too soon? Or should we hold off till after the weekend?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 10, 2016 - 06:39am PT
Escopeta: "I'm totally not here to troll, guys. I'm an economist with Serious Business Questions About Liberty."
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 10, 2016 - 09:33am PT
How far the collective wisdom has shifted that we can't envision a cessation of the "mana from heaven" mentality of across the board subsidy environment the US has fostered.
GuapoVino

climber
Mar 10, 2016 - 11:40am PT
The 18 year old girl in the truck is part of a family singing group called the Sharp Family Singers (ie: The Osmonds). A lot of the people at the heart of this movement are fringe Mormons. Lavoy Finicum lived just outside of Colorado City (Warren Jeff's nutty polygamist town).


[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]


The same mindset that does stuff like the protest ATV ride into Recapture Canyon. Theres a big problem in Utah with the locals raiding archaeological sites.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 10, 2016 - 11:49am PT
The Sharp Family Singers are trying to get the attention of Leonard Pinth-Garnell
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 10, 2016 - 12:36pm PT
Heartbreaker video Werner posted.

He was absolutely begging them to kill him. I wonder if being a martyr is all he hoped it would be.

So much for the pretend patriot lie that he was trying to surrender with his hands up.
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Mar 10, 2016 - 02:16pm PT
31 people charged so far?

Figure that probably 70% — at least 20 people — will be willing to inform on the various patriot movements they've associated with, in exchange for seeing the sun at some point in their future lives.

The 3%ers, Oath Keepers, militias et al. should be getting very paranoid at this point. I am going to guess that 50% or more of them, nationwide, are 1 or 2 degrees of separation from one or more of those charged.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 10, 2016 - 08:01pm PT
So, out of curiosity, what exactly is it that they would "inform" on those groups? That they like to run around on the weekend and play Cowboys and Indians?

It's a pretty well known fact that most of the significant groups have Feds as members. Some under cover, others openly sitting in. So, is there something being hidden that these "informers" would have to offer?

These groups generally speaking are harmless (right now) which is why there aren't Feds lying around with perforations on a daily basis.

Or did you just say that so it sounds more mysterious and salacious? Which is fine, just wondering.


nah000

climber
no/w/here
Mar 10, 2016 - 09:34pm PT
you know that vid that werner posted just makes me sad...

mostly for the officers...

but also for the people in the truck...

while they brought on everything that happened, that video makes me feel like i'm watching a confrontation involving the mentally handicapped and/or emotionally ill...

and so regardless of their bringing this on themselves, they are/were human, and it makes me sad that fellow humans saw the world outside of themselves in the twisted fashion that they did.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Mar 10, 2016 - 09:58pm PT

Mar 10, 2016 - 12:36pm PT
Heartbreaker video Werner posted.

He was absolutely begging them to kill him. I wonder if being a martyr is all he hoped it would be.

So much for the pretend patriot lie that he was trying to surrender with his hands up.


6:13 of that video also shows our boy Ryan with a gun in his hand after Lavoy got shot. I could easily have been 2 dead or worse.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 11, 2016 - 06:25am PT
A lot of the people at the heart of this movement are fringe Mormons

What movement would that be?
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Mar 11, 2016 - 07:31am PT
^^ The movement they're talking about three threads over.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 11, 2016 - 07:38am PT
nah000, I agree, I don't get the crowing and celebrating but plenty used to show up and
hurl insults at those about to be guillotined also.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 11, 2016 - 09:05am PT
I wonder what will happen to the officers that claimed they didn't fired their weapons, but in reality actually did fire them?

Maybe their guns went off and they didn't notice? Lol
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Mar 11, 2016 - 09:22am PT
Alright.! These guys will be wearing orange for a LONG time. I would bet that some of the armed guys in the earlier Nevada standoff are laying low. The next time they get pulled over, they will be taken into custody.

The constitution guarantees the right to assemble and freedom of speech. However, when you do it by pointing guns at cops, you had better expect to be in trouble. That is probably a felony, and we've all seen the pictures of that guy lying prone, looking through his scope at what I assume is feds. I bet that he sleeps poorly now.

I'm surprised that they haven't gone after more of the Nevada gang. Maybe because they got most of the ringleaders in Oregon. The Bundy's and that jerkoff Ryan Payne.

Anyway, I'm glad that they now reaping what they sowed. The northwest is full of militias, and they need to settle down. I remember the gun cult's last real act of violence: The Oklahoma City Bombing. I've said it many times here, but my wife was dropping our toddler son off at day care when the bomb went off 9 blocks south of them. It shattered windows at that distance.

Tim ain't available for interviews anymore. I wish that he hadn't been put to death, because we know that others were involved. Most people think that, anyway, and there is good evidence to support it. Hopefully Terry Nichols will eventually talk.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 11, 2016 - 09:26am PT
You're not exactly up on current events are you?
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Mar 11, 2016 - 10:08am PT
Hopefully Terry Nichols will eventually talk.

He apparently already has. He's on whosarat.com's snitch list.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Mar 11, 2016 - 10:19am PT
In that video what happened to the window right before he got out to commit suicide by cop?

And I agree Base - I've been disappointed in our government for not going after the Nevada criminals. Glad to see justice is being served.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 11, 2016 - 10:22am PT
It's good to see Progressives admit they're in favor of mass incarceration and police killing.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 11, 2016 - 10:29am PT
Escopeta posted
I wonder what will happen to the officers that claimed they didn't fired their weapons, but in reality actually did fire them?*

Maybe their guns went off and they didn't notice? Lol


*citation needed

chaz posted
It's good to see Progressives admit they're in favor of mass incarceration and police killing.

Let us know what you're talking about when you emerge from your k-hole delirium.
John M

climber
Mar 11, 2016 - 10:37am PT
It's good to see Progressives admit they're in favor of mass incarceration and police killing.

If a lot of people do a crime, then a lot of people should go to jail. And as for cops killing someone, I am never for that unless it is absolutely necessary to protect others.

At no time in my history as a person have I ever been against cops being able to protect themselves, but shooting an unarmed person with their hands in the air, and shooting a man who is known to carry weapons and is reaching for his waist are two different things. Please try to understand this.

There are things cops have been doing that are just plain wrong, such as beating a person after they are cuffed. If you aren't against those kinds of things, then you are morally corrupt or morally bankrupt. And if you can't understand that it is these kinds of things that are putting people seemingly against cops, then either you haven't been paying attention, or you just chose to be belligerent, because I do believe that you are intelligent enough to figure this out.

When will you figure out that one can be against certain kinds of behavior that have gotten out of hand, while being for the police?

no one here wanted this man to die. But he was a fool and put himself and others in a dangerous situation and I can fully understand why the cops shot him.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 11, 2016 - 10:38am PT
HDDJ, there were two rounds fired by the FBI that weren't immediately divulged.

They should be investigated and held accountable.

That doesn't mean that the seditionists were right about anything.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 11, 2016 - 11:36am PT

They should be investigated and held accountable.

That doesn't mean that the seditionists were right about anything.

Well, I guess they were right about one thing.....

Its also important to note that while its beyond reproach that a law enforcement officer would try to cover up the fact that he fired his weapon in the direction of a citizen, there were numerous other officers that were in on the cover-up.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 11, 2016 - 11:57am PT
http://www.npr.org/2016/03/11/470040310/rancher-cliven-bundy-refuses-to-enter-plea-in-federal-court?ft=nprml&f=3

Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy said he did not acknowledge federal authority, and did not enter a plea to 16 felony charges. Supporters rallied on his behalf and denounced the federal government.

DMT, this would not meet either of our definitions of a patriotic act.

You mentioned taking up arms.

Would them taking up arms against the US Gov't be a patriotic act, as they advocate that it is? I'd think not, either.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Mar 11, 2016 - 03:07pm PT
Its also important to note that while it beyond reproach that a law enforcement officer would try to cover up the fact that he fired his weapon in the direction of a citizen, there were numerous other officers that were in on the cover-up.

Citation?


How did we find out if they were in on the coverup?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Mar 11, 2016 - 03:21pm PT
Well, I guess they were right about one thing.....

Vague as ever, what the heck to you mean by this Escopeta?

Nothing like some good innuendo to make is seem like you know something.
Keep it up, we're totally fooled.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 11, 2016 - 03:39pm PT
Who cares? These yahoos provoked an armed confrontation and paid the price. Now they want to whine about the accounting of the gunfire? Pfft it is like a lame defense attorney asking irrelevant questions to muddy the water. When you are busted and dead wrong, I guess that is all you can do. How many times do you think you can yell "shoot me" while you are armed before some obliges?
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Mar 11, 2016 - 04:04pm PT
Escopeda said-
Well, I guess they were right about one thing.....

Its also important to note that while it beyond reproach that a law enforcement officer would try to cover up the fact that he fired his weapon in the direction of a citizen, there were numerous other officers that were in on the cover-up.

Critical point diversion 101- Pose conjecture laden statements as fact...
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 11, 2016 - 04:38pm PT
The saddest part is that this deluded, wannabe cowboy hero had to drag a bunch of other idiots along for his suicide by cop martyrdom.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 11, 2016 - 05:08pm PT
Good Lord.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/03/investigation_of_fbi_agents_in.html

At least someone has picked up the torch and tradition from good 'ole Lonny Horiuchi.
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Mar 11, 2016 - 05:19pm PT
It's a good bet that the OSP would not be looking so very closely at the ballistics of every shot if someone hadn't suggested it might be worthwhile to do so.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 11, 2016 - 05:22pm PT
HHDJ writes:

"Let us know what you're talking about when you emerge from your k-hole delirium."


Werner was right. Simple sh#t goes right over your head.

Unlike Werner, I don't believe you're an idiot. I think you're missing the point on purpose. Because it was a simple post. And you're too smart to miss something so simple.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 11, 2016 - 05:26pm PT
It's a good bet that the OSP would not be looking so very closely at the ballistics of every shot if someone hadn't suggested it might be worthwhile to do so.

Well yeah. There's that. Or maybe its because they found a f*#king bullet-hole in the roof of the truck.

peladob

Mountain climber
Mason City, Iowa
Mar 11, 2016 - 05:29pm PT
Agents are not going to wait for a shootout to begin.

You stand still with your hands up or become target practice.

For starters, don't get involved in an issue that was mostly over in the 1970's just because you need a new venue to hold local law enforcement at bay and feel like a tough guy.

But yeah, you yell shoot me and reach at your coat it's suicide by cop.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 11, 2016 - 06:07pm PT
The first refuge occupiers were also Bundy ranch participants (except RitzCracker). There is speculation that they had become aware of their impending arrest and orchestrated the refuge takeover as an encore to Bundy Ranch, with the idea that it would mobilize the troops and give them leverage.

If you go back to Lavoy's evening under the tarp his statements about arrest warrants and not wanting to be taken alive seem to support that theory.

It is also telling that none of the seditionists have mentioned the Hammonds at all since the arrests. Was the whole Hammond thing a scam? probably.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 11, 2016 - 08:06pm PT
Hows that great relationship between the locals and the feds working out over there in Malheur Mr Beck? Have you checked in on it lately?

Funny how that vote turned out. I would have expected it to go differently given the model of cooperation they have going on.

peladob

Mountain climber
Mason City, Iowa
Mar 12, 2016 - 10:56am PT
Thanks Dinger.

That post helped someone, somewhere, in some small manner.

Sure of it.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 12, 2016 - 11:36am PT
Thank God for escargot. Just when we thought Ron and rokjox were gone forever.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 12, 2016 - 12:14pm PT
It's a good bet that the OSP would not be looking so very closely at the ballistics of every shot if someone hadn't suggested it might be worthwhile to do so.

I have a friend and neighbor who's an OSP detective - they aren't clueless or negligent and don't need any prodding to do their job. More complete horsesh#t.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Mar 12, 2016 - 12:24pm PT
They are throwing the book at them.

The FBI seemed so slow on this that they almost looked lazy. In reality, they waited for a moment when all of them weren't barricaded with guns ready. The ranch episode could have turned very ugly, but the cops stood down. Same thing with the Refuge episode. They didn't attack. They just picked them up when they were out in the open, getting the ringleaders at roadblocks out in the middle of nowhere. They were obviously listening to their phone calls.

Catching Cliven was easy. He left his ranch and got on a plane. They picked him up at an airport.

I have to say that they did a good job on this, other than the death of one man. I'm sorry that that happened, but he was running with a mob that was armed to the teeth and breaking law like it was nothing.

The feds just let them get cold and hungry, and collared them when they were out in the open. Compared to Waco, this was quite a victory for patience. I didn't think that they were going to arrest them at all. They hadn't acted aggressively (the FBI).

So who wants to bet on how much jail time they all will get?
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Mar 12, 2016 - 12:29pm PT
Dingus,

Here is a good link to what is going down with the encryption of the new Iphones. The FBI has one, from one of the San Bernadino shooters, and can't get in without a password.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/02/17/467096705/apple-the-fbi-and-iphone-encryption-a-look-at-whats-at-stake
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Mar 12, 2016 - 01:05pm PT
I have a friend and neighbor who's an OSP detective - they aren't clueless or negligent and don't need any prodding to do their job. More complete horsesh#t.

Agreed! But there remains the question of just what kind of resources would normally be deployed to investigate what might have seemed a relatively straghtforward, justifiable takedown.

I am suggesting that the FBI HRT guys massively screwed up, expected a wall of blue fron OSP as cover, and that one or more OSP officers said hell no.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 12, 2016 - 05:32pm PT
And yet the Jack Yantis case still remains inconclusive. .
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 12, 2016 - 07:05pm PT
Escopeta? Re your comment, which you have made previously:

And yet the Jack Yantis case still remains inconclusive. .

Adams county, Idaho rancher Jack Yantis getting shot after a confrontation with two Adams County Deputy Sheriffs this winter, after his bull was hit by a passing car at night, has absolutely nothing to do with this thread, and I suspect you are bright enough to know that too.

I appreciate you have repeatedly tried to derail this thread.

Since you are the current most disingenuous poseur on ST, I find your posts always of interest/or not.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 12, 2016 - 07:27pm PT
Glad to see I have a fan club. The counterpoint of the speed and efficacy of the Lavoy Finnicum investigation vis a vis the "normal" shooting of a citizen is certainly of interest to the thread.

Just because is doesn't continue your rain-man like incessant repartee about the militia must be why you don't like it.

Would be interesting if the OSP crawfished the Feds. If so, maybe they get to keep a little integrity in their pocket. A scant little.

EDIT: Maybe the FBI called all hands on deck when the Bird Sanctuary got ganked and had no time for the Yantis investigation. I heard the FBI is on a tight, tight budget.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 12, 2016 - 08:01pm PT
The "normal" shooting of a citizen is that the cops all file paperwork and then everyone believes exactly what it says.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 12, 2016 - 09:08pm PT
I just watched (& enjoyed) the classic 1st movie of Clint Eastwood's "Dollars Trilogy" - A Fistfull of Dollars.

It's easy to see where my, Escopeta's, & The Bundy's western "tough-guy" attitude comes from.

It's likely due to our thinking western movies, like those by Clint & Sergio were lessons on life. (not that Escopeta will admit to that, or anything.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollars_Trilogy
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 13, 2016 - 07:50am PT
Good lord
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 16, 2016 - 06:07pm PT
John Sepulvado's article detailing GOP involvement in aiding the domestic terrorists was published. Interesting read. Could Michele Fiore be facing charges?

http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/republican-gop-politicians-coalition-western-states/

overwatch

climber
Arizona
Mar 16, 2016 - 06:35pm PT
Maybe their guns went off and they didn't notice? Lol

It is possible. It is called auditory exclusion and the momentary lapse of trigger finger discipline as the clutch response occurs under deadly stress could cause the negligent discharge.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 16, 2016 - 07:12pm PT
ROTFLMAO

Yeah, that's it. They were under stress and didn't realize their gun went off. Lol
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 16, 2016 - 07:21pm PT
Jon Beck! Your link is a great read! & Escopeta, you as usual try to sidetrack this thread. Gud Luk Bovine Being!
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 16, 2016 - 07:32pm PT
Maybe Fritz's gun went off without him knowing also.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 16, 2016 - 07:35pm PT
Escopeta!

MOOOOOOOOO!

Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 16, 2016 - 07:44pm PT
They look vicious. Real assault rifle material for sure. I wouldn't get too close to them if I were you.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Mar 16, 2016 - 07:44pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

I saw this video in my facebook feed.

It's surprising how many people think he was murdered. Look at the comments in youtube. This country has way too many delusional folks.

He tells federal agents and state police "you back down or you kill me now! Go ahead put your bullet through me" Then he takes off at high speed disobeying armed agents. Jumps out of his car starts running around (instead of putting his hands up or better yet lying face down like every frickin arrest video where the think the suspect is armed) and they are telling him get on the ground, but instead he keeps yelling "go ahead and shoot me!" reaches for his waistband and get's shot. If I was a cop knowing they were armed and defiant, ready to die, disobeying lawful orders, yelling go ahead and shoot me, and seeing him reaching for his waistband I'd shoot him too before I got shot.

He cranks up the tunes for a little while in the middle of it? Dude was acting really strange.

The people in the car and the comments about the agents shooting the people in the car are ridiculous. If they wanted to kill the people in the car they would have. Only the guy that looked like he was reaching for a gun and disobeying orders was shot.

Of course if it was a black man in this situation the same people would probably say he deserved it. He brought it on himself. But because he was a right winger he's justified in telling the feds and staties what THEY have to do and he doesn't have to obey them.

But I guess if you don't see that he was clearly reaching into his waistband just before he got shot you are capable of believing anything you need to tell yourself.

Edited to be more respectful of the dead. I don't have much sympathy for the guy and think he chose suicide by cop, but he still was killed.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 16, 2016 - 07:47pm PT
Per Jon Beck's link: on the crazed western Republicans that supported the Malheur CowQuida occupiers.

http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/republican-gop-politicians-coalition-western-states/

The explicit purpose of the Coalition of Western States (COWS), according to the group’s website, is to “restore management of public lands to the States where it Constitutionally belongs.” While the organization claims to have more than “50 legislators and grass roots leaders predominately in the Western United States,” leaders would not release a roster of members, meeting agendas, meeting notes or tax filing status.

Several COWS members took an active role in Bunkerville, and beyond.


Authorities Investigate Threats Against Wa. Rep. Matt Shea
Fiore and other COWS members became darlings of right-wing paramilitary groups skeptical and even hostile to the federal government, including the Oathkeepers. By the end of 2014, Fiore, Shea and other coalition participants had sponsored bills that would transfer federal land back to local governments in six states.

All the bills failed, and as time put more distance between the public’s memory and the Bundy standoff, COWS went from a political stampede to an afterthought.

“We all kind of fell out of touch until things started heating up again in Oregon,” Corbell said. “That’s when I started getting calls.”

Corbell told OPB that coalition leadership knew Ammon Bundy planned to take over U.S. government property in Harney County before it happened, but were unsure which federal outpost it would be. The federal government owns about 75 percent of the land in Harney County.

“We knew he was going to do something,” Corbell said, “because something had to be done.”

Just part of a long & interesting article about wacky folks trying to grab OUR lands from US.

It does appear they have won the equally wacky Utah legislature.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/11/us/the-larger-but-quieter-than-bundy-push-to-take-over-federal-land.html?_r=0

The Larger, but Quieter Than Bundy, Push to Take Over Federal Land
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 16, 2016 - 09:36pm PT
Jim, they're viscous because it's really hot outside.

Duh.

Good ol' Escargot Ron Fattrad Rokjox Leb.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 17, 2016 - 06:02am PT
Fixed it. Nice to see you guys are, in fact, hanging on every word. Cool.

Sure haven't heard much about the FBI boys that sent rounds down range and then forgot about it.

And these are the people we are supposed to believe when they tell us how something went down?

Here is a DIRECT QUOTE from the FBI Press conference held after shooting. Funny how there was no mention of the shots fired by the FBI guys.

"Thirdly, we know there is quite a bit of interest related to the events as they occurred on Highway 395 on Tuesday afternoon. We know there are various versions of what occurred during this event: most inaccurate, some inflammatory. To that end, we want to do what we can to lay out an honest and unfiltered view of what happened and how it happened."

Tell me anther whopper government man.....

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 17, 2016 - 06:58am PT
I trust the FBI a hell of a lot more than I do the Mormon insurrectionist militia or any other right wing militia, lets put it that way mmmkay?
overwatch

climber
Arizona
Mar 17, 2016 - 07:03am PT
ROTFLMAO

While you are down there...
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Mar 17, 2016 - 07:36am PT
This is the guy that got shot in the snow after trying to run the barricade and then charging out of the truck right?

Unless that video shot by the drone is somehow faked I can't see how the shooting was anything other than what was clearly seen.

There are lots of recent LEO videos of outright murder. This sure seems like a legit shooting to me. He had clearly stated he wasn't going to jail. I kinda felt sorry for him but in that final chase he really didn't leave them any choice.

Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 17, 2016 - 08:03am PT
There are lots of recent LEO videos of outright murder. This sure seems like a legit shooting to me. He had clearly stated he wasn't going to jail. I kinda felt sorry for him but in that final chase he really didn't leave them any choice.

Agree. But at what point did the FBI agents start firing on the vehicle? And why should we be inspired to believe ANYTHING they tell us since its patently obvious they lied?

I certainly have no reason to question the validity of the video, but if they are willing cover up two shots fired from a service weapon, what else are they willing to cover up?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 17, 2016 - 08:04am PT
While you are down there...

I had a moment of auditory exclusion there, what did you say? Lol.

The lengths some people will go to rationalize anything is amazing.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 17, 2016 - 08:09am PT
TRDF.

Let's take one more look at who escargot and overbite put their faith in.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
overwatch

climber
Arizona
Mar 17, 2016 - 08:18am PT
Not rationalizing anything just saying there are many documented cases of auditory exclusion, not hearing the shots, and the clutch response where the hands involuntarily grip, in deadly force encounters.


Good come back on the "while you are down there"
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 17, 2016 - 08:22am PT
Maybe they will come up with a new Auditory Exclusion theory and this will be the first documented case of this new circumstance.

A group auditory exclusion. 15-20 people having a simultaneous auditory exclusion.

Its kind of like a circle jerk, but different.
overwatch

climber
Arizona
Mar 17, 2016 - 08:25am PT
Let's take one more look at who escargot and overbite put their faith in.

Weak on the overbite and you couldn't possibly misread me any more, those militia guys are some of the biggest soup sandwiches I have seen in awhile. I don't usually watch many of the OT videos posted, especially on this thread so not sure of your point with the vid because I have not posted anything to lead anyone to believe that I support the 'militia'

vvvvvvv And many cops are a close second

just noticed the overslept... that's not bad, but I only wish that I could. if anything my issue is getting enough sleep
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 17, 2016 - 08:26am PT
While we are searching youtube for nostalgia, let's look at the peeps Survival and Overslept put their faith into.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 17, 2016 - 08:30am PT
Overwatch, My apologies if I misread you. When people don't actually explain what they're talking about, it can happen. Somehow I thought your "while you're down there" was directed at me.

Escargot and his hate for the government was my main focus.

Edit: escargot, there are plenty of examples of the feds being out of line, but this thread is about the Bundy insurrection, and men like Sean Anderson, your hero.
overwatch

climber
Arizona
Mar 17, 2016 - 08:34am PT
Overwatch, My apologies if I misread you. When people don't actually explain what they're talking about, it can happen. Somehow I thought your "while you're down there" was directed at me.


I try to make clear posts I thought it was obvious it was towards Eggospitter. No big deal, was just joking and smoking anyway. Actually overbite isn't that weak I have been trying come up with one for myself. I could start a thread, "Shitname for Overwatch" Overcrotch? Overarch? Overreach? Overload? I think DMT came up with Overlord

vvvvvvv I think that you are right it even rhymes.

Edited to add Overslept from Egosweater
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 17, 2016 - 08:44am PT
Well, for what it's worth Overcrotch is the one that got me laughing!
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Mar 17, 2016 - 02:01pm PT

More knews today from Reuters!!!

March 17 (Reuters) - A federal judge in Nevada refused rancher Cliven Bundy's latest request on Thursday to be freed from jail ahead of his trial on conspiracy and other felony charges for his role in a 2014 armed standoff with federal agents, a spokeswoman for prosecutors said.

U.S. Magistrate Judge Carl Hoffman Jr. ruled at a hearing in Las Vegas that Bundy, 69, posed a danger to the public if released, U.S. Attorney spokeswoman Natalie Collins said in an email statement.

Bundy has been jailed since his arrest on Feb. 10 at the Portland International Airport after arriving there on his way to show support for anti-government militants who had taken over the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in eastern Oregon.

He and two of his sons, Ammon and Ryan, who were indicted in connection with leading the Oregon occupation and also face charges with their father in the Nevada standoff, have become popular figures for groups challenging federal control over vast stretches of public land in the West.

Prosecutors have said the elder Bundy trespassed on federal lands for over 20 years, refusing to secure the necessary permits or pay the required fees the government charges ranchers to let their cattle graze on U.S.-owned public property.

In an enforcement action nearly two years ago, the U.S. Bureau of Land Management sent armed rangers to Bundy's ranch about 80 miles (129 km) northeast of Las Vegas to confiscate his cattle.

Anti-government groups and other supporters rallied to Bundy's defense. In an armed standoff on April 12, 2014, along Interstate 15, they confronted federal agents, who ultimately backed down and returned the cattle they had seized.

The case against Bundy stems from that clash. He was indicted on charges of conspiracy, assault on a law enforcement officer, carrying a firearm in a crime of violence, obstruction of justice, interference with commerce by extortion and aiding and abetting others in breaking the law.

Defense lawyers in court papers filed on Wednesday sought his pre-trial release, arguing Bundy is peaceable and not a flight risk. But the judge denied their request.

A federal judge in Oregon last month, before Bundy was transferred back to Nevada, ordered him to remain in custody, finding the rancher, who at times has traveled with armed guards, was a flight risk and posed a threat.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 17, 2016 - 02:41pm PT
IF that old man is dangerous to himself or others, seeing as he has never fired a shot at a single person.......then how dangerous are the two FBI agents that shot at people and didn't have the good sense to report it.

They should be buried UNDER the jail right?

Just keeping a bit of perrrrspective is all.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Mar 17, 2016 - 03:25pm PT
Unless that video shot by the drone is somehow faked I can't see how the shooting was anything other than what was clearly seen.

Finicum had his hands up at one point but then reaches to his waistband with his right hand and turns toward the policeman coming out of the woods who shoots him. The video from inside the truck adds the audio where he's yelling "shoot me! shoot me! shoot me!".

But you get the people who say it was murder and he had his hands up. You can't reason with people like that who somehow can see something other than what's clearly visible in a video. Imagine if there were no video the conspiracy theories you'd be hearing.

There were flash bombs going off as soon as they approached the road block.

Yes it's fishy that some FBI agents fired and didn't report it, BUT that was made public and they are being reprimanded for that. If there was some govt. conspiracy to murder them don't you think they'd just keep that under wraps.

The video of the fat guy is so funny. "They're about to murder us all, so come down and join us! If they won't let you in, kill them!" Wow, so tempting, I don't know why they didn't get anyone to come join them?
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 17, 2016 - 03:31pm PT
Cliven Bundy killed Lavoy Finicum, if allowed to continue his seditionist BS many more will die.

So the FBI agents should be in jail for not reporting two shots? What law did they break? Maybe some perjury, but that rarely results in jail time, unless your name is Martha Stewart.
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Mar 17, 2016 - 04:38pm PT
IF that old man is dangerous to himself or others, seeing as he has never fired a shot at a single person.......then how dangerous are the two FBI agents that shot at people and didn't have the good sense to report it.

Ya know, There oughtta be a law!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 17, 2016 - 04:41pm PT
Just check out LaVoy Finnicum Supporter FB page if you want to know what's really going on.....

Escargot is posting there as Free Range Queen.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 17, 2016 - 04:45pm PT
Hey, they wanted to occupy a federal facility, now they're going to get to. More power to them.
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Mar 17, 2016 - 04:51pm PT
Free Range Queen??
zBrown

Ice climber
Mar 17, 2016 - 07:09pm PT
Will they enlist in the Aryan Nation or go it alone?

Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 17, 2016 - 07:11pm PT
So the FBI agents should be in jail for not reporting two shots? What law did they break?

I'm just going to repost the quote above to let the stupidity and hypocrisy aerate a little.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 17, 2016 - 07:22pm PT
Free Range Queen? On Facebook

=

Escopeta?

Say it ain't so Shotgun!
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 17, 2016 - 07:25pm PT
Zbrown, its not nice to post pics of Fritz without his consent.
zBrown

Ice climber
Mar 17, 2016 - 07:56pm PT
If I was Clivan, i'd get Da Brim, it seems that along with swastikas it's the tie that binds all together.

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 17, 2016 - 08:03pm PT
Excuse me for saying that that's a dumb mutherfu&&er right there....
jonnyrig

climber
Mar 17, 2016 - 09:12pm PT

The lengths some people will go to rationalize anything is amazing.

Excuse me for saying that that's a dumb mutherfu&&er right there...

Well, that sums up just about f*#kin everything (applied on a much broader spectrum, of course).
F

climber
away from the ground
Mar 17, 2016 - 09:24pm PT
I hate to have to clue you guys in here.... But Escopedro is the smartest guy in the room here.


Mar 17, 2016 - 02:41pm PT
IF that old man is dangerous to himself or others, seeing as he has never fired a shot at a single person.......then how dangerous are the two FBI agents that shot at people and didn't have the good sense to report it.

They should be buried UNDER the jail right?

Just keeping a bit of perrrrspective is all.

Oh wait, my bad. He's just another Idontknowwhykmaretaddrepublicunt, peddling a weak ass straw man argument. What a blind follower.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 17, 2016 - 09:26pm PT
Curious what you think of that last picture posted jonnyrig?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 17, 2016 - 09:37pm PT
Excuse me for saying that that's a dumb mutherfu&&er right there....

Well, I don't think he's on the job market.
jonnyrig

climber
Mar 17, 2016 - 09:59pm PT
My gut reaction is that anyone getting inked up in that manner is a f*#king idiot.

The next thing that happens is that I wonder why, in the sense of what kind of f*#ked up life did they get stuck with and is there a way to reduce that kind of crap in future generations?

This is all based on a single picture, mind you. And I recently had a discussion with a coworker who voiced exactly such an opinion to me regarding a student in one of our classes who (less the face tats and white supremacy b.s.) was attending school to improve his life and employment. My coworker didn't bother to ask anything about the individual and made some disparaging remarks, which I rebutted.

Seriously though, some people exhibit poor judgement.

I took the two quotes out of context and applied them in a much broader sense to a lot of what's happening these days. I suspect the Malheur incident is symptomatic of a larger problem. See "Trump" and "Hillary" for confirmation.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 18, 2016 - 01:33am PT
Wow. Those were almost exactly my thoughts. I mean, I sort of instinctively blurt out something more base than that, but on another level I know there's more to it.

A friend of mine in high school had an incredibly f*#ked up home life. He basically had to throw down with his old man to get through the day. People wondered why he was so angry all the time. But down underneath, he was a really sweet guy. Never saw him get evil tats on his face though...
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 18, 2016 - 05:43am PT
I think you guys should have them over for Sunday dinner. Maybe go round up Bundy's cows and have a feast in their honor.

If we would have just spent a little more money on their neighborhoods during the formative years it would have made a difference.

I wonder how many of those types were thrown in jail for a victim-less crime or some stupid 3 strikes law.
jonnyrig

climber
Mar 18, 2016 - 06:08am PT
Are you (Escopeta) saying there's no value in analysis of why people turn to things like drugs and crime? 'Cause like I TOTALLY understand the impetus to shoot first and talk sh#t later. If I go round up any of Bundy's cows there'll be a feast for sure. Hell, I'd go so far as invite y'all, if'n I stole other people's sh#t. But wait... I pay my taxes and such, so...

Most of us are guilty of making assumptions based on appearance. Face it: when you're walking down the street, that's all ya got. So to those who say "don't stereotype me man" I say: Don't act like a f*#kin stereotype. 'Cause most of us are guilty of that too.

I'm getting the chance these days to meet people I would normally not associate with, and it challenges my personal stereotypical assumptions a little more than what I would otherwise allow myself to be exposed. That doesn't mean I'm inviting them over for dinner; but it does make me think a little. The question of whether action and intervention during the formative years of any particular individual would have precluded a disfavorable outcome in their later years is not one that is easily answered. There are so many factors that influence the paths people take in life that it's difficult to say just what could have made a difference. Although, it's probably true that some people are just born to believe that snarky trash talk is the solution to winning the hearts and minds of braindead followers. I guess if we can accept that some people are just born gay, we can also accept that some people are just born evil. Or stupid.

But now I've rambled too far. The insensibility of my disgust with the world is beginning to leak from my fingertips like blood from a fingernail that's recently had a bad tryst with a hammer. So I shall depart.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 18, 2016 - 06:27am PT
Bundy's cattle sure as f*#k haven't been paid for through his subsidized welfare grazing permit.

So since they're OUR CATTLE, on OUR LAND, damn right we should have a barbeque!!
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Mar 18, 2016 - 06:45am PT

Survival
I'm knot sure those cows are even edible. They're stringy
and probably no meat on them--since there's no grass where they've
been grazing. . .
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 18, 2016 - 07:01am PT
Steve, anything barbequed long and slow enough becomes edible, even rocks.

DMT, thank you, Captain Obvious!
monolith

climber
state of being
Mar 18, 2016 - 07:47am PT
Bundy's cows would consider the feed dairy cows get to be manna from heaven.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 18, 2016 - 07:50am PT
There are still dairy cows in California?

I guess only most of them have left and gone to states where the legislature doesn't consider them the enemy.

Interesting. Apparently its going to take a little more regulation to kick them all out.
monolith

climber
state of being
Mar 18, 2016 - 07:59am PT
blablablagovernmentsfaultblablabla....
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 18, 2016 - 08:31am PT
There are still dairy cows in California?

escargot continues to show his deep knowledge of the beef industry.
zBrown

Ice climber
Mar 18, 2016 - 08:53am PT
Concerning my Da Brim homeboy*, he, just like anyone else in the U.S,

must

start taking withdrawals from his IRA, SEP IRA, SIMPLE IRA, or retirement plan account when he reaches age 70+1/2.

We really all are in this together, though many of us shun the face-ink and swastikas, one of us could end up as the dude's cellmate.


You don't have any retirement accounts? Nevermind.


Some tasteful ink and an attitude can take you a long way, as far as Tasmania maybe.




* Also known as AB, The Brand or Alice Baker, it is thought that the Aryan Brotherhood has around 20,000 exclusively white male members, some behind bars and some on the outside. It is thought to have been founded in 1964 by Irish bikers at San Quentin State Prison, in honor of St. Paddy's day.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 18, 2016 - 09:26am PT
Are Kali dairy cows as rambunctious as the Bundy cattle? maybe survivor can let us know.
zBrown

Ice climber
Mar 18, 2016 - 09:42am PT
Like Licky's book, this prison gang sheeit has taken on a life of it's own.


It's a good thing Trump is going to build that wall because number one on the ten worst prison gangs, The Numbers Gang, is actually in South Africa and is rumoured to be headed our way. Many members are CPA expatriots of Kenya (Obama's home state).



http://www.criminaljusticedegreehub.com/10-most-dangerous-prison-gangs/#comments
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 18, 2016 - 09:45am PT
CA-COWS are all chill and peaceful after some weed and Dead pumped through the speakers.

Not like that evil subsidized welfare scrub cactus Bundy-Beef. Luckily we saved the A-10, so the Bundy rats can be harvested and fed to the Mormon seditionists in prison.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Mar 18, 2016 - 12:56pm PT
Where's the Beef?

That is the question.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2016 - 04:05pm PT
There are still dairy cows in California?

in 2012 California led the nation with milk production of 41 billion pounds, that is 20% of the national production.
Wisconsin was #2 with 27 billion, Idaho #3 with 13 billion.

similar numbers through 2014
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 31, 2016 - 09:17am PT
If this showed up tomorrow, I'd know it was a joke. Maybe Escopeta is ramroding this offer? The article is from Outdoor Life.
http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/open-country/exclusive-upland-shooting-club-makes-play-public-land-idaho

An Exclusive Upland Shooting Club Makes a Play for Public Land in Idaho


I have written my share of hunting stories over the years, but never one quite like this: The Idaho Department of Lands has been approached by an entity looking to secure an exclusive hunting lease on public land—and the hunters are expressly prohibited from dressing like a commoner.

In what may be the first collision of British-style aristocratic culture and Idaho’s sagebrush desert, the state will decide which is in the public’s interest: exclusive leasing of public land or the continued public access to an underfunded resource.

Maybe we should start at the beginning. The group, Blixt and Co., is proposing a hunting club on a piece of state-owned land in Jefferson County, Idaho, not far outside the town of Rigby
The specifics of the hunting activity are noteworthy. Blixt promotes the drinking of tea and the wearing of tweed jackets, long socks with flashers (whatever those are), and knickers while participating in English-style driven hunts.

As long as it’s legal and restrained, we’d never cast aspersions on the style of a hunt. But what makes this case interesting, and possibly precedent-setting, is its implication for the private use of public land.

The state of Idaho has a type of public land known as “endowment lands.” These state-owned and managed properties, for the most part, are lands that were donated by the federal government in the late 1800s for the purpose of providing financial support for the state’s rural, public schools. As is the case in many Western states, these “school sections” generate income in a number of ways, with grazing, timber, and mineral leases being most popular. In Idaho, the Department of Lands is required by statute to maximize income generation on these lands.

It’s the revenue-generation requirement that is noteworthy. In 2014, Blixt and Co. proposed a new source of revenue to the state, asking for an exclusive lease on a 580-acre piece of endowment land.

According to its website, Blixt and Co. offers “premier traditional pheasant and partridge shooting” in the English tradition. Each outing features a “personal loader” and a team of 25 drivers. After a day’s shooting, the party retires to the lodge for “tea or cocktails.”

The site offers recommendations for dress that prohibit camouflage or blaze orange, instead urging shooters to wear “matching or coordinating trousers.”

Most endowment lands in Idaho are open to the public for recreational hunting and fishing unless those activities conflict with the ability for the land to generate revenue for the state’s schools fund. And that’s where things get a bit sticky with this story.

The Department of Lands is mandated by law to consider all outlets that would generate revenue from endowment lands—including an exclusive lease to a knicker-laden outfitting business that would lock the public out of public lands.

Thus far the Department of Lands hasn’t received a formal proposal from Blixt and Co., but according to local media reports, e-mails and meetings have taken place.

In an effort to combat the potential of an exclusive hunting lease, state Rep. Mat Erpelding drafted a resolution that would oppose any proposal that prevents the public from using endowment lands because of an exclusive hunting lease. Even if the resolution passes, it wouldn’t change the constitutional requirement that the lands board consider all revenue-generation proposals.

Does this mean Idaho’s Board of Lands is required to grant an exclusive hunting lease to Blixt and Co.? That appears to be the question. Gem State sportsmen reportedly are pursuing an alternative source of revenue for the Jefferson County parcel that would give the Land Board a choice between exclusive leasing to the hunt club and retained public access.

How much funding is required? That’s unclear. As stated, Blixt and Co. hasn’t made a formal proposal, so a firm dollar amount isn’t readily available.

Well, there is one number available. Blixt and Co. reportedly charges its shooters $4,000 a day.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Mar 31, 2016 - 09:22am PT
Does the $4000.00 include the Dick Cheney flack jacket..?
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 31, 2016 - 09:37am PT
Sounds like a gun nuts wet dream

what is a beater, or maybe I do not want to know

http://www.blixtco.com/shooting/driven-shooting/

THE SHOOT
Each shoot accommodates a line of 8 guns, and all days are offered based on a “no-bag limit” and will include 6 drives per shoot day.

During the shoot you will be hosted by the “Shoot Captain”, your personal loader, a 25 man strong team of beaters and dog handlers, all directed by our English game keeper whom will make the most to present you with a great day in the field.

A typical day at Twin Peaks starts with breakfast at the Lodge. After breakfast we will head to the field to meet the loaders and the rest of the team. After the customary safety speech and drawing of pegs, we mount up in the custom Gun Bus to move from drive to drive.

There will be two drives in the morning before the guns stop for elevenses, and two more drives before lunch. Lunch is served in the field, under a safari tent placed in a glorious wooded grove settings. Our private chef will make sure that all guests are well looked after.

After lunch, the day continues with the two final drives of the day, before heading back to the Lodge for afternoon tea or cocktails.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 31, 2016 - 10:11am PT
Haha. You people are too stupid to see past your nose.

Do you really think selling the timber off the State endowment land could ever possibly come close to generating the kind of revenue this operation would bring in?

I prefer to do my driven hunts in the homeland, in a proper Grouse Butt with some fog drifting on the moor.

In the meantime, like this morning, I prefer to just tune up on the local squab.

A hundred or so is enough to keep me sharp.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Mar 31, 2016 - 10:33am PT
Too bad we can't shoot ticks... I think we could all get behind that.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 31, 2016 - 10:43am PT
Jon! re your question: What is a beater? Beaters are the local peasants, who spread out in a long line & drive the game towards their masters. In Jefferson County Idaho, which is 75% Mormon, the masters would likely hire one of the many local LDS youth groups for beaters.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 31, 2016 - 10:45am PT
Brandon Curtiss, founder and president of the Three Percent of Idaho Militia, files for bankruptcy, for the third time.

A real stand up, constitutional patriot type guy it appears.

http://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/community/west-ada/article68581597.html
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 31, 2016 - 11:45am PT
Survival! That's a very interesting article on Brandon Curtiss & his cheating ways. What a Patriot indeed!

Here's the article summary about how he screwed various property owners out of their rent while running his property management company.

In a civil case decided late last year, Ada County District Judge Patrick Owen awarded the Boyces $19,726, plus $48,823 in attorney fees and costs. The judgment was against the property management company, so it is not part of the bankruptcy.

Owen said the case was a “typical breach of contract action,” but became “exceptional” because of Curtiss’ behavior.
“Curtiss avoided service for over a month, missed the deadline to respond to the complaint, agreed to mediate, but then just prior to mediation, refused to participate even though the Boyces had purchased plane tickets to attend the mediation,” Owen wrote.

The judge went on to say that Curtiss, who once spent a decade as a police officer in North Idaho, created such a conflict that his attorney withdrew from the case, causing additional costs and delays. Curtiss also failed to deposit $12,016 from a partial pre-trial judgment into a court trust account as directed by Owen.

“He has not paid us a dime,” Leslie Boyce said. “Hiring him was the worst, most costly mistake we’ve ever made. Battling Brandon Curtiss in court for two years to get our money back wiped out our savings and caused a great deal of stress.”

A second property owner, Martinique Properties, filed suit against Curtiss last November. That lawsuit was placed on hold by the court after Curtiss and his wife filed for bankruptcy. They listed $20,000 in potential debt from the lawsuit that they hope to have discharged in the bankruptcy.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 31, 2016 - 12:31pm PT
Too bad we can't shoot ticks... I think we could all get behind that.

The locals regard these feral birds as such. This AM...

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 4, 2016 - 11:13am PT
Yes ladies and gentlemen, more drama coming down the pipes.

From the people that brought you Malheur 1, Clash of the Bundy's!!

Get ready for the stunning sequel: Utah 1, Return of Gleave!!

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/apr/04/utah-ranchers-oregon-standoff-federal-government-cliven-bundy
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Apr 4, 2016 - 11:33am PT
Are these guys still the #1 terror threat facing the US? Or is it Global Warming this month? I'm having a hard time keeping it straight.

Or it is Muslim month?

Who's the boogeyman now?
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Apr 4, 2016 - 11:35am PT
More dumb rednecks. can't fix stupid.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 4, 2016 - 11:37am PT
CIA/Mossad/SA funded and trained ISIS nutcases are still the main 'threat'. I'm skeered.

Although those Bundy cows are supposed to be pretty ferocious according to CNN....
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 4, 2016 - 11:42am PT
I'm having a hard time keeping it straight.

No worries escargot, I'm here for you. Got you covered.

Here you go. Maybe you should actually read the article.

http://www.newsweek.com/2016/02/12/right-wing-extremists-militants-bigger-threat-america-isis-jihadists-422743.html
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Apr 4, 2016 - 11:52am PT
OK, I read it.

Jihadists=Good.

Ranchers=Bad.

Got it.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 4, 2016 - 12:16pm PT
No, it said absolutely nothing about jihadists being good.

Try again.

Edit: As a matter of fact, it said nothing about ranchers per se, being bad.

You've got your anti-government blinders locked.

Which right wind extremist group are you going to join?
overwatch

climber
Arizona
Apr 4, 2016 - 12:24pm PT
I'm having a hard time keeping it straight.

Sounds like a personal problem
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Apr 4, 2016 - 01:27pm PT
Which right wind extremist group are you going to join?

Well, I'm trying to figure out which one is the boogeyman this month to inform my decision.
F

climber
away from the ground
Apr 4, 2016 - 01:31pm PT
Escopedro - How many of those birds did you eat?
overwatch

climber
Arizona
Apr 4, 2016 - 01:32pm PT
Which right wind extremist group are you going to join?

Not sure if typo or intentional but it fits the Great One (Assopetter) perfectly. I am sure it will be the one that blows the most hot air
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 4, 2016 - 01:38pm PT
Not sure if typo or intentional

I hate typos, but in this case intentional for my main man snail. The way he snuggles up on these domestic terrorists deserves extra attention.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2016 - 05:21pm PT
Them Gleaves are some honorable people

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/878028/Sheep-ranchers-charged-with-snaring-animals.html?pg=all

A couple who operate a sheep ranch in the Dixie National Forest has been charged with illegally using steel snares to kill cougars and bobcats.

The remains of seven cougars, 15 bobcats, two foxes and a hunting dog have been found dangling in the traps in the past three years.

Authorities believe Charlotte Gleave, 50, and her husband, Stanton Jack Gleave, 52, used illegal traps to reduce the number of predators attacking their livestock. The traps were found in the woods around Mount Dutton in Garfield County.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Apr 4, 2016 - 06:55pm PT
Escopedro - How many of those birds did you eat?

Not a single one. Why?
jonnyrig

climber
Apr 4, 2016 - 08:28pm PT
Beause E, you're the boogeyman here, or at least this week's whipping boy.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Apr 4, 2016 - 08:37pm PT
Well, jonyrig. I think I saw that you come to Idaho to elk hunt on occasion. They're studying to released some California condors here I think this week. Better get your copper bullets tuned up cuz I know how this movie ends.
F

climber
away from the ground
Apr 4, 2016 - 08:50pm PT
That's what I figured. You strike me as the kind of person that kills animals purely for fun.
jonnyrig

climber
Apr 4, 2016 - 09:05pm PT
http://www.nosler.com/ballistic-tip-lead-free-bullet/

http://www.leadfreehunting.com/buynow/

A little something lead-free for everyone. If you shoot, that is. I'll just save my lead for the zombie apocalypse. Only it's not the zombie apocalypse, it's the stupid apocalypse. And it's already here.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Apr 5, 2016 - 05:33am PT
That's what I figured. You strike me as the kind of person that kills animals purely for fun.

That is hilarious. What other things do I strike you as, pray tell? Do I pull the wings off flies?

Maybe I should tell the rancher to just go ahead and go back to poisoning the pigeons, and anything else that might happen onto said poisoned pigeon?

Besides, pigeons in the spring are eating the bitter seeds from freshly planted fields. They taste much better in the fall when they are fattened up on the waste grain from harvest.

But hey, I don't get to eat them in the fall if I don't promise the rancher to get rid of them year round.

But you already knew that, since you have such a great bead on things.

JRig, you can keep your lead free bullets.....I won't be buying any.

F

climber
away from the ground
Apr 5, 2016 - 08:12am PT
Uhhmmm, project much?

In my opinion.... People that kill animals, en masse, and don't eat them, FOR WHATEVER REASON THEY USE TO JUSTIFY IT, are nothing more than sadistic retards that need counseling. The problem isn't that there are too many feral birds. The problem is there are too many stoopid humans. You being one of them.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 5, 2016 - 08:31am PT
I've been an avid shooter my entire life but don't really hunt. I've got no problem with those who do though as long as it's done in a safe and responsible fashion (i.e. harvesting/donating the meat of larger game, bag limits, etc).

How is shooting troublesome birds that will otherwise be killed by different means possibly an issue? Shooting birds is a lot less potential harm than poisoning them.



overwatch

climber
Arizona
Apr 5, 2016 - 08:41am PT
Beause E, you're the boogeyman here, or at least this week's whipping boy.


Maybe he wouldn't be if he didn't post abrasive, sarcastic, contrarian s h i t on every thread with never a good thing to say yet loudly proclaiming his own infallibility. Regardless he is big enough to take it, as he constantly reminds us.

vvvvvv someone has to, you know, all it takes for the triumph of evil and all that, just like I would run to the sound of the gun
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 5, 2016 - 08:45am PT
It's kind of your own fault for engaging with it.
F

climber
away from the ground
Apr 5, 2016 - 09:04am PT
Why are they "troublesome" birds? Why is it NECCESARY to kill these birds? Is that like those troublesome Native Americans that existed in harmony with the land they lived on for thousands of years until a drunk, ignorant, gun toting white developer decided they needed to be relocated so he could make money by raping their land?

If the pigeons are so "troublesome", move. Live somewhere that your life isn't threatened by a 1.5 lb bird.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Apr 5, 2016 - 09:13am PT
People that kill animals, en masse, and don't eat them, FOR WHATEVER REASON THEY USE TO JUSTIFY IT, are nothing more than sadistic retards that need counseling.

Fair enough. Just wanted to make sure I was clear on your position. Carry on. If you need to stoke that fire at any point and need to see more pics of dead animals, I'm yer huckleberry.
F

climber
away from the ground
Apr 5, 2016 - 09:17am PT
Glad I could clarify it for you. Get counseling. You don't want to go through life feeling like you are threatened by a 1.5 lb bird.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 5, 2016 - 09:19am PT
We haven't been "living in harmony with the land" for several hundred years. With.. what... ~8 billion breeders now I doubt that's going to happen either.

Unfortunate but it is what it is...
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Apr 5, 2016 - 09:19am PT
Good lord, if pigeons weighed a pound and a half I might actually get a little skeered. As it is, they still sound like the Sunday paper when they hit the dirt.

Wanna keep going?
F

climber
away from the ground
Apr 5, 2016 - 09:23am PT
Fear - speak for yourself. I'm not a breeder. And I don't kill animals for fun. If I can do it, so can anyone else. It's just a matter of CHOOSING to do so. Which choice will you make? Knowingly contributing to overpopulation, and killing for fun? Escopedro has shown us what his choice is.


Escopedro- Why do you kill squabs en masse year round?
jonnyrig

climber
Apr 5, 2016 - 09:27am PT
Gee F, tell us how nature is sooo in balance after all these of human interference. How DO we get it back in balance now that we've so effectively f*#ked it up?

Maybe you could propose a better method of species control when things get out of balance, vs wholesale slaughter, you know, instead of just flinging sh#t. Otherwise, maybe run for office.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 5, 2016 - 09:48am PT
Ron Anderson is alive and well.
overwatch

climber
Arizona
Apr 5, 2016 - 09:49am PT
Ron Anderson/Rokjox mashup

Now, we can carry on and hash this all out right here, it doesn't bother me and frankly anything that seems to agitate Overslept is a worthwhile endeavor.

Essie is pleased with himself

[Click to View YouTube Video]





Off base again, no agitation here, calling bulls h i t is relaxing to me.


vvvvvvvv as long as you get the last word right, Narcissus?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Apr 5, 2016 - 09:54am PT
Escopedro- Why do you kill squabs en masse year round?

Because if I didn't the farmers and ranchers wouldn't let me hunt on their property during hunting season of course. If they don't have pigeon problems they most likely have skunk or beaver or coon or dog problems that need to be solved as well.

We can stop anytime you like.
jonnyrig

climber
Apr 5, 2016 - 10:54am PT
I saw Ron at the gun shop, while I was picking up worms to go fishing. I waved. He is indeed alive and well. We didn't talk about this place, Malheur, militias, nor anything else of remote interest to this board. He looked happy.

Moving on now. Y'all have a nice time here. Play nice, mm-k?
F

climber
away from the ground
Apr 5, 2016 - 12:46pm PT
What exactly is the "problem" with pigeons, skunks and dogs being alive?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Apr 5, 2016 - 01:22pm PT
We can really only answer that question by asking ourselves what is the "problem" with making them dead?

Now, we can carry on and hash this all out right here, it doesn't bother me and frankly anything that seems to agitate Overslept is a worthwhile endeavor.

However......this thread really isn't about hunting, depredation or the lack of animal rights (save for the occasional Bundy zombie-cow comment) and I will freely admit that I don't have an open mind on the topic, and I don't care what you think about it either. Which usually doesn't make for very good TV.

So, like I said I can go on forever and I can share all manner of photos, evidence and philosophy on the topic, but really what's the point?
F

climber
away from the ground
Apr 5, 2016 - 01:32pm PT
I asked the question 3 times. You avoided answering the question three times. Instead of killing animals and tossing their carcasses, (wanton waste), why don't you post some climbing pictures instead of dead animal pictures on this forum?

I'm guessing you'll dodge or obsfucate that question also, so I'll answer for you.

You are just an average gun nut screaming "FREEDOM!!!!! BENGAHZI! " because that's all you've got. No substantial reasoning.

By the way, this thread is about tards like yourself taking over a BIRD SANCTUARY, so I think it's at least slightly relevant, dipsh it.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Apr 5, 2016 - 01:48pm PT
F, wanton waste applies to game animals. Don't use big words when you don't understand them, it makes you look stupid.

I answered your silly question. The fact that you don't like my answer is not my concern.

What's the matter poopsie? Do you see dead pigeons when you lay your head down at night?

F

climber
away from the ground
Apr 5, 2016 - 02:10pm PT
If you can eat it, isn't it game animal?

No, when I look at your avatar I see a tard in a ten gallon hat screaming "BENGHAZI!!!! FREEDOM!!! KILL!!!"
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Apr 5, 2016 - 02:15pm PT
If you can eat it, isn't it game animal?

Lol

Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Apr 8, 2016 - 07:28am PT
F,

I shot some starlings today that were raiding a wood duck nest.

Any recipe suggestions? Lol.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 8, 2016 - 08:09am PT
A little standoff in central Nevada. I drove up and parked & while I was getting ready for a hike to an old mine, the bull slowly walked down a hill to me. He stopped about 30 feet away in a non-threatening position. I don't know if he wanted oats, or his chin scratched, or if I just needed to be checked-out. He slowly walked away after I said "f*#k the Bundy's."
F

climber
away from the ground
Apr 8, 2016 - 08:09am PT
BENGHAZI!!!! FREEDOM!!! KILL!!!" LOL!!!

Just keep shouting the party line, you are doing just fine, sugar tits.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Apr 8, 2016 - 08:10am PT
I don't know if he wanted oats, or ......,

Maybe he remembered you from last time and thought you might, errr...oblige him again.....
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Apr 8, 2016 - 08:16am PT
Just keep shouting the party line, you are doing just fine, sugar tits.

So, no recipe suggestions then?
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 8, 2016 - 08:20am PT
"sugar tits"... that could have been a suggestion for a recipe.

References to Libya too. Maybe it's a North African dish?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Apr 8, 2016 - 08:26am PT
Good Point. I like Afghan cuisine, maybe he's onto something.

One of my favs in NorKal

Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 8, 2016 - 08:38am PT
Escopeta! Re your comment about my Bundy bull encounter:
Maybe he remembered you from last time and thought you might, errr...oblige him again.....

Sorry, but I don't share your strong attraction to bulls or cows.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 8, 2016 - 08:48am PT
These guys, who actually own less than a section of land (640 acres, or a square mile), also need 80,000 acres of desert just to raise a few hundred skinny cows. Bundy hadn't even branded a bunch of his calves. Unbranded cows are called "slicks."

At the same time, you can raise and feed hundreds of cattle on only a thousand acres on wetter land to the east. These Nevada cattlemen really only ranch as a hobby. Bundy certainly couldn't support himself on that small of a herd, even with that gazillion acres of BLM grazing rights he had been using. Crappy land like that just isn't made for cows.

It is like growing corn west of the hundredth meridian. It is way too dry to grow without irrigation and is heavily subsidized to boot. Farmers and ranchers suck on the government tit like you guys wouldn't believe, from federal grazing rights to CRP. CRP land is land that the government pays you NOT to farm, lest ye ruin thine topsoil. It is one of those government handouts that the farmers now need just to keep afloat. CRP is like the ethanol subsidy, but much more common. I've heard many a farmer brag about how much they have received in CRP payments.

That guy Finnicum, who committed suicide by cop, apparently made most of his money from foster children. These guys aren't real ranchers. Not in any economic reality. No matter that they wear cowboy hats. Ranchers to the east can raise a lot of cattle on a fraction of the land. That desert scrub is that poor.

Bundy's cows have wandered all the way down to Lake Meade, and he apparently doesn't even do a spring roundup. They just wander the desert.

Somebody needs to do a government service by going out there and shooting all of his nuisance cattle.
F

climber
away from the ground
Apr 8, 2016 - 09:40am PT

Somebody needs to do a government service by going out there and shooting all of his nuisance cattle

Ordinarily Escopedro would be your "huckleberry" for that. He gots off on en masse killing of "nuisance" animals. Except in this case, they belong to his "FREEDOM!" loving butt-buddy Bundy, so I don't think he'll oblige you on this one. I think he's busy today anyway, looking for some cute little baby rabbits to stomp on with his cowboy boots.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 8, 2016 - 10:00am PT
I'm serious about the notion that these guys are cattle ranchers. Finnicum apparently made his money from raising foster children, and Bundy never gave his herd much attention from all accounts that I have read.

It all comes down to why in hell would we be subsidizing cattle destroying the range land, when real ranchers in moister areas are grazing their cattle on winter wheat or alfalfa. You couldn't get an alfalfa plant to grow out in that part of Nevada without a lot of irrigation.

So I classify these guys as sort of wannabe cattle ranchers. I grew up hunting and fishing on a huge ranch where I grew up. I had permission to hunt and fish to my heart's content. This was a real ranch, with thousands of cattle on a fraction of the amount of land that those desert ranchers need to get by. It is just a lousy area to ranch.

So spare me the romantic vision of these guys as western hero cattle ranchers. In Nevada, they had to close 145,000 acres to round up his little herd which had wandered all the way to Lake Meade. Bundy even claims that the land is his. I tired of his version of the Bill of Rights pretty quickly. He is so far off of his nut that he isn't a very sympathetic figure.

145,000 acres for a few hundred cows is what we are talking about. That land is so poor that a rancher in a wetter area would need a small fraction of that amount of land to raise his herd.

I already mentioned that he was running slicks. That means that he wasn't doing much cattle work. What he had going was a bunch of skinny cattle of little value trampling a massive area. So, knowing real cattle ranchers, I just shake my head at Bundy's claims and actual impacts. He and his buddies are jokes as cattle ranchers.
F

climber
away from the ground
Apr 8, 2016 - 10:08am PT
Shouldn't we as "FREEDOM!!!" Loving 'Mercians have the right to be wannabe ranchers that suck at what we claim is our occupation though?
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2016 - 02:58pm PT
Great news for Ammo Bundy, he is going home!!! well kinda. he is headed back to Nevada to be arraigned on charges related to the Battle of Bunkerville. So he will not be getting much of a parade or heroes welcome.

http://patch.com/oregon/portland/oregon-standoff-latest-ammon-bundy-headed-nevada-0
F

climber
away from the ground
Apr 13, 2016 - 03:21pm PT
I'm sure Escopedro will be there showing support for the poor rancher that the GUBBMINT! has it out for.
He will be easy to spot. The tard in the ten gallon hat outside the courthouse chanting "FREEDOM!!! BENGHAZI!!!!!!"
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 13, 2016 - 03:36pm PT
Ammon who?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 13, 2016 - 04:51pm PT
Yes. Definitely make the Keystone Kowboys face more judges.

Maybe someday they'll get the drift.
zBrown

Ice climber
Apr 13, 2016 - 07:56pm PT
Maybe somebody knows.

What branch of the armed forces was Ammo in before he joined the militia?

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 13, 2016 - 08:58pm PT
A number of Keystone Kowboys were ex military, but Ammon was not one of them. I don't know of any of the Bundy's having served.
jonnyrig

climber
Apr 13, 2016 - 09:26pm PT
http://www.hcn.org/articles/malheur-occupation-oregon-ammon-bundy-public-lands-essay

What more can be said? I was one of the hundreds of journalists who went to the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge during the Ammon Bundy occupation, and I saw the same things that all the rest of them did. If there was any difference between myself and those hundreds of other journalists, maybe it was that I went there looking for kindred spirits.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Apr 14, 2016 - 05:44am PT
jonnyrig, TFPU. That was a good read.
I went to the Malheur looking for kindred spirits. I found the mad, the fervent, the passionately misguided. I found the unknowing pawns of an existential chess game, in which we are, all of us, now caught.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Apr 14, 2016 - 05:34pm PT
Me too, kindred spirit! I don my camo pants and brown t shirt every morning, just to take a dump. Sitting there on the terlit beneath the American flag (after dropping my drawers of course, down to my cowboy boots) doing my morning constitution I like to read the constitution! And I do so, every day; every day. Its astounding.

What I realized is the only thing that guarantees my daily constitution is the pistol strapped to my leg. Without that, its all over and the country will fail.

DMT

once again, dmt's cute thoughts out an as#@&%e. while i absolutely disagree with what the malheur malcontents did, belittling those who are different than us is never a good thing. f*#k you dmt. if there were ever a narcissistic bastard on this site its you.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 14, 2016 - 06:34pm PT
belittling those who are different than us is never a good thing

Belittling people with guns who live off the government tit and then complain about it is another matter altogether.
zBrown

Ice climber
Apr 14, 2016 - 06:40pm PT
I only read this sporadically, so maybe someone can just tell me. Is this the belittling DMT was doing?

Me too, kindred spirit! I don my camo pants and brown t shirt every morning, just to take a dump. Sitting there on the terlit beneath the American flag (after dropping my drawers of course, down to my cowboy boots) doing my morning constitution I like to read the constitution! And I do so, every day; every day. Its astounding.

What I realized is the only thing that guarantees my daily constitution is the pistol strapped to my leg. Without that, its all over and the country will fail.

DMT
F

climber
away from the ground
Apr 14, 2016 - 08:35pm PT
While DMT might suffer from some of the narcissistic traits of the typical 'Merican, I think the tards in ten gallon hats deserve every bit of belittling that comes there way. I think that that was one of the funnier posts of his that I've read. Although, I haven't taken the time to read all of his 34,914 (and counting, YAY!!) posts, so maybe there are some gems lurking in there somewhere.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 26, 2016 - 08:24am PT
Two of the Keystone Kowboys have plead guilty now. One to the conspiracy charge and one to stealing government property.

Ammon's lawyer from Eugene is out of a job. Post was taken by some dude Phil Fembot from Utah, who is supposedly funded by the C*#k brothers.

Ryan Bundy is representing himself and just filed a complaint that the state of Oregon is taking away his rights......IN JAIL!!
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
May 26, 2016 - 03:08pm PT

Hope they get to stay in jail. For a LONG time.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 31, 2016 - 08:28am PT
Article on the Bundy Boys complaining about no internet access & their lack of constitutional rights in jail.

Ryan is very upset that his 2nd amendment right to keep & bear arms is being violated.

My right to live is being violated,'' defendant Ryan Bundy wrote. "All of my First Amendment rights are being violated...I am not allowed to see my brother and move about....This violates my freedom of assembly...My Second Amendment rights are being violated. I never waived that right.
"When I say my rights are being violated, I want the Court to know that all of my rights are being violated; every last one of them. I could argue that my right to life hasn't been taken. But the FBI tried to take that right when they attempted to kill me. They missed on that one. I still have the bullet to prove that,'' Ryan Bundy wrote.

Poor Babies.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/05/bundy_brothers_in_jail_complai.html
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 31, 2016 - 08:53am PT
The militia goons had a "stand together" behind the arguments that Cliven's lawyer would be making strategy.

Unfortunately, Cliven is now arguing that he wasn't in charge of ANYTHING during the 2014 standoff! He told them that they could come, but that in no way was he controlling anything they did.

OOOPS!!
dirtbag

climber
May 31, 2016 - 09:05am PT
Good lord, those guys are more delusional than I first thought.

What did they think jail was going to be like?
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jun 23, 2016 - 06:06pm PT
http://www.hcn.org/articles/bomb-threat-blm-bureau-land-management-sagebrush-rebellion-arizona-bundy
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 23, 2016 - 07:20pm PT
and the right wing extremists are not a threat, it is the mooslims we gotta worry about.
c wilmot

climber
Jun 23, 2016 - 07:32pm PT
its amazing how politicians have convinced/conditioned some Americans to think that its other Americans who are the real terrorist threat not the islamic terrorist groups who openly say they want to kill all Americans and have succeeded in doing so to thousands of Americans.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 23, 2016 - 07:44pm PT
Yeah, Timothy mcveigh was a choir boy.
c wilmot

climber
Jun 23, 2016 - 07:53pm PT
McVeigh was protesting the Iraq war

not exactly in line with the agenda
dirtbag

climber
Jun 23, 2016 - 08:02pm PT
You're either joking or hopelessly brainwashed.
c wilmot

climber
Jun 23, 2016 - 08:04pm PT
The administration has said that Iraq has no right to stockpile chemical or biological weapons ("weapons of mass destruction") — mainly because they have used them in the past.

Well, if that's the standard by which these matters are decided, then the U.S. is the nation that set the precedent. The U.S. has stockpiled these same weapons (and more) for over 40 years. The U.S. claims this was done for deterrent purposes during its "Cold War" with the Soviet Union. Why, then, it is invalid for Iraq to claim the same reason (deterrence) with respect to Iraq's (real) war with, and the continued threat of, its neighbor Iran?

The administration claims that Iraq has used these weapons in the past. We've all seen the pictures that show a Kurdish woman and child frozen in death from the use of chemical weapons. But, have you ever seen those pictures juxtaposed next to pictures from Hiroshima or Nagasaki?

I suggest that one study the histories of World War I, World War II and other "regional conflicts" that the U.S. has been involved in to familiarize themselves with the use of "weapons of mass destruction."

Remember Dresden? How about Hanoi? Tripoli? Baghdad? What about the big ones — Hiroshima and Nagasaki? (At these two locations, the U.S. killed at least 150,000 non-combatants — mostly women and children — in the blink of an eye. Thousands more took hours, days, weeks or months to die).


his own words.. the govt assertion is that he was a gun nut...but thats the same govt that insisted Saddam had wmd's
dirtbag

climber
Jun 23, 2016 - 08:06pm PT
Ok, you're brainwashed.

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 23, 2016 - 08:07pm PT
The Bundy crew were terrorists.

http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/oregom-malheur-refuge-staff-expected-to-leave/

It is not politically correct for me to call Bundy and crew right wing extremists, so I will refrain.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Jun 23, 2016 - 08:11pm PT
I think this would be better if we had a real campfire.


Terror implies commison of violence, eh?
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 23, 2016 - 08:23pm PT
Read the article, one third of the staff was intimidated into leaving. Lavoy Finicum was aiding William Keebler in scouting a bombing target (see link at top of page).

Taking over a federal property while heavily armed with assault rifles is an act of violence.
nah000

climber
no/w/here
Jun 23, 2016 - 08:42pm PT
terrorism...

a present day boogey man of a word... like "communist" before it, it is used to control perception rather than to elucidate it... even the random house dictionary definition is uselessly non-specific: "the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims."

how is that different than "war"? wiki at least says "often targeting civilians" which gets closer to the heart of the matter...

and from that perspective the most successful application of terrorism has to, without question, be hiroshima and nagasaki...

so why isn't the descriptor embraced in that case? i've never heard those bombings described as successful acts of terrorism, even though they, due to their targeting of civilians, most certainly were... everybody knows the entire goal was to shock the japanese with ruthlessness beyond their wildest nightmares, so that they would know what would continue to fall on their civilians if they didn't comply...

and so what makes our use of terrorism justified, and others unpardonable...

besides ours being successful in bringing about surrender, of course?



and just so we're clear, the point of the above is not to take any positions on anybody's use of terrorism... that is a separate debate...

i'm only pointing out that if we are to use the word terrorism/terrorist as more than a debate silencing pejorative, we must accept that we in the west chose to employ terrorism, when it benefitted us.



if we can't call our own actions by the words that objectively describe them, how on god's green earth are we going to ever clearly see and/or possibly understand the world that surrounds us?
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jun 23, 2016 - 09:39pm PT

McVeigh was protesting the Iraq war

No he wasn't.

Timothy James McVeigh (April 23, 1968 – June 11, 2001) was an American terrorist convicted[3] and executed[4] for the detonation of a truck bomb in front of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995.[5] Commonly referred to as the Oklahoma City bombing, the attack killed 168 people and injured over 600.[6] According to the United States Government, it was the deadliest act of terrorism within the United States prior to the September 11 attacks, and remains the most significant act of domestic terrorism in United States history.

McVeigh, a Persian Gulf War veteran, sought revenge against the federal government for its handling of the Waco siege, which ended in the deaths of 76 people exactly two years before the bombing, as well as for the Ruby Ridge incident in 1992. McVeigh hoped to inspire a revolt against the supposedly tyrannical federalist government. He was convicted of eleven federal offenses and sentenced to death. His execution was carried out in a considerably shorter amount of time than average after his trial, as most convicts on death row in the United States spend many more years waiting for their executions. Four years after his conviction, McVeigh was executed by lethal injection on June 11, 2001, at the Federal Correctional Complex in Terre Haute, Indiana.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jun 23, 2016 - 09:40pm PT
He was protesting Waco and similar events. When he mentions Iraq, it is to say that what he did was morally equivalent to the US striking government buildings in Iraq and Serbia.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2001/04/26/mcveigh-apr-26-letter-to-fox-news.html
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 24, 2016 - 12:23am PT
I'm sure there'll be a pardon in the offing if trump gets elected.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jun 24, 2016 - 05:34am PT
In other news, a Grand Jury is researching whether the FBI acted appropriately in the Lavoy Finnicum shooting.

I'll give you three guesses on how the Grand Jury will decide and the first guess is free.

More secret discussions by a secret panel to declare in the end: We've investigated ourselves and found no wrong doing!"

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 24, 2016 - 06:42am PT
Lavoy who? Isn't he that terrorist who was planning on bombing BLM facilities?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jun 24, 2016 - 06:58am PT
Lavoy who? Isn't he that terrorist who was planning on bombing BLM facilities?


Exactly, you know...the one that the FBI was taking pot shots at but then tried to deny it when called on the carpet.

And to think, you retards want gun control when the FBI won't even fess up to doing something so dangerous that a redneck shooting hogs in Texas would consider too risky to try.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jun 25, 2016 - 01:41pm PT
LaVoy did help case bombing sites, with this fellow patriot....


http://www.oregonlive.com/today/index.ssf/2016/06/utah_militia_leader_with_ties.html



Federal undercover agents work with nutballs looking to do harm all the time.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jun 25, 2016 - 07:45pm PT
Federal undercover agents work with nutballs looking to do harm all the time.

Yeah, like they did with Randy Weaver.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 29, 2016 - 11:33am PT
Harney County Oregon rejects recall of Grasty

http://registerguard.com/rg/news/local/34522501-75/harney-county-voters-reject-recall-of-bundy-foe.html.csp

A local official who opposed the armed takeover of an Oregon wildlife refuge has prevailed in a recall vote.

Harney County Judge Steve Grasty, the top administrator of the sparsely populated high-desert county, faced a recall vote after he refused to allow the armed protesters to use a county building for a meeting. Unofficial results Tuesday night showed about 70 percent of voters rejecting the recall effort.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jun 29, 2016 - 08:39pm PT
Jon! That's great news!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jun 29, 2016 - 08:55pm PT
Good for the people of Harney County!!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Jun 29, 2016 - 08:58pm PT
I hope the people behind the recall are going to foot the bill for the election costs..?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jun 29, 2016 - 09:05pm PT
Same people voted to NOT turn the Owyhees into a Monument and Wilderness.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 29, 2016 - 09:05pm PT
Harney County is not strongly anti-government. The Hammonds were basically outsiders, having moved to the area in the 1960s. The locals are not as confrontational as the Hammonds were. Obviously the Bundys over-estimated the local support they would get. That is reflected in the wide margin of support for Grasty. Message to the seditionists "GTFO of our county"

Essy - it is called apples and oranges
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jun 29, 2016 - 09:11pm PT
Escopeta! Re your post:

Same people voted to NOT turn the Owyhees into a Monument and Wilderness.


And I agree with those fine Harney County voters all the way.

Why do you hate our political system & government?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jun 29, 2016 - 09:12pm PT
I didn't say they were strongly anti-government. I merely stated a fact. Just as you did.

EDIT: I absolutely love how you try to dissect the dynamics of a small town in Oregon from two states away. That is truly the best part of all of this.

Somehow you are equating a lack of support for the Bundy Idiots and being pro-government......and you want to educate me on apples and oranges. Lol




nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Jun 29, 2016 - 09:47pm PT
*
*
A local official who opposed the armed takeover of an Oregon wildlife refuge has prevailed in a recall vote.

Harney County Judge Steve Grasty, the top administrator of the sparsely populated high-desert county, faced a recall vote after he refused to allow the armed protesters to use a county building for a meeting. Unofficial results Tuesday night showed about 70 percent of voters rejecting the recall effort.
Right on.....Thanks for the heads-up..Mr Jon Beck.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
So beautiful...
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jun 30, 2016 - 06:07am PT
Thanks Nita.

F*#k the cowboy goon squad.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jun 30, 2016 - 07:25am PT
Hahaha, those idiots are no more cowboys than John Wayne. Ignorance is bliss....
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jun 30, 2016 - 07:29am PT
For the record, about two weeks ago the REAL cowboys in that area were on site fighting a range fire up in the Owyhee highlands while the corporate, bunny hugging, environmental activist retards in Portland such as Keen footwear were having a party to gather donations and votes to turn the area into a national monument and wilderness area.

The stark realities of locals vs. outsider bureaucrat tards.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jun 30, 2016 - 07:34am PT
Exactly. We all know that Blundy & Vanilla ISIS weren't real cowboys. Stevie Wonder could see it. But thanks for checking in government hater.


The stark realities of locals
It was locals who voted to retain Grasty, not people from Portland. My family has lived in Oregon for 130 years Escargot. Nobody tells us we don't understand Oregon issues.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jun 30, 2016 - 07:59am PT
Haha, well I'm telling you just that.

Soon enough the BLM will own the Hammond land and this will die down until they find another patch that tickles their fancy. Just like all the ranches they bought to expand the refuge previously.

The locals are forced to deal with the devil. And anyone that doesn't, well, we see how that ends up.

That doesn't mean they have BLM agents over for dinner and a beer like you would have us believe.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jun 30, 2016 - 08:18am PT
The locals are forced to deal with the devil.

Interesting that you refer to your own government as the devil.
More than 40 percent of the county’s employed residents work for either local or federal government agencies. The locals ARE the government you twit. In many ways the government is the life blood of that county.
Go piss up a rope.
F

climber
away from the ground
Jun 30, 2016 - 08:23am PT
FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDUM!!!!!
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jun 30, 2016 - 09:11am PT
What's the matter? You mad bro?

With a large wildlife refuge parked int he middle of the county, its no surprise .gov is a major employer.

The rest of the county, like the Hammonds, found out its better to be the devils right hand.

The folks in neighboring Malheur County? Not so much.

But by all means, you keep on spewing about what you read in the paper. I'll keep it real with what actually happens over here.

Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jun 30, 2016 - 09:13am PT
All this talk of Eastern Oregon has me looking to shoot some jacks. I think I'll head to Burns this weekend.

Hey F, you wanna come with me? No? Good.
overwatch

climber
Arizona
Jun 30, 2016 - 09:14am PT
double tap!
F

climber
away from the ground
Jun 30, 2016 - 09:28am PT
No thanks, 'Lil Bang Bang. I'm busy the rest of the week. Going climbing and catching sockeye to put in the freezer. Have fun killing birds.
Freedum?
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 1, 2016 - 09:36am PT
Booda boy Brian Cavalier to cop a plea. I think he was Bundy's bodyguard.

He never let his guard down, and he does not drink alone


Date Filed # Docket Text
06/29/2016 798 Minutes of Proceedings: Entry of Plea Hearing before Judge Anna J. Brown for Defendant Brian Cavalier. Defendant sworn and examined. Defendant advised of rights. Plea Petition and Plea Agreement signed and accepted by the Court. Government summarized charges and terms of plea agreement. Court finds defendant capable and competent to enter plea. Guilty plea entered to Counts 1 and 2 of the Superseding Indictment. Court finds guilty plea to be knowing and voluntary. ORDER - Presentence Report to be prepared by U.S. Probation. ORDER - Defendant shall remain in custody pending sentencing. Sentencing is set for 9/30/2016 at 11:00 AM in Portland Courtroom 14A before Judge Anna J. Brown. The Court will assume 30 minutes is sufficient for sentencing unless the parties notify the Court 2 weeks in advance that more time will be needed. Simultaneously filed Sentencing Memos are due no later than 09/21/2016 by NOON. If the Sentencing Memos are not received on time or the Court is not advised that none will be filed, sentencing may be rescheduled. Counsel Present for Plaintiff: Graig Gabriel.Counsel Present for Defendant: Todd Bofferding.(Court Reporter Bonita Shumway) (bb) (Entered: 06/30/2016)
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jul 1, 2016 - 10:31am PT
Yes, Booda did plead guilty.

A real hero patriot looking guy eh? Just the sort of dude Escargot wants in charge of Eastern Oregon. Those are the people he admires.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 1, 2016 - 11:02am PT
ecoli=idiot

and he is going to use a government road to go shoot birds.
oh the horror.

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 1, 2016 - 11:03am PT
Yo....not even a mother could love that dude. Too many of his like around and the number seems to be growing. He should be a poster boy for third trimester abortions.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 12, 2016 - 02:48pm PT
The GOP nailed down another plank in their platform, can call this one The Bundy Plank

On the bright side the vote was close

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/gop-platform-committee-wants-feds-to-turn-fed-lands-over-to-the-states
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jul 12, 2016 - 03:07pm PT
Good. Another non-starter issue.

When will they learn?

Who cares?


“Cherish these natural wonders, cherish the natural resources, cherish the history and romance as a sacred heritage, for your children and your children's children. Do not let selfish men or greedy interests skin your country of its beauty." - Theodore Roosevelt
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 14, 2016 - 01:39pm PT
Ryan Payne, another major player in the Malhuer crime spree, cops a plea. Hearing scheduled for 7/19

Ammon and his bro might be gittin a little worried, not many of his paytridiots are standing in solidarity with him. I get it though, years in prison would suck.

This plea is for Oregon only, he faces charges in Nevada as well

SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Jul 14, 2016 - 02:29pm PT
May they all serve LONG periods of jail time.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2016 - 05:11pm PT
Ryan Bundy escape attempt foiled. Too bad, could have been an epic rappelling story about to happen.

http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/malheur-ryan-bundy-alleged-jail-escape-foiled/#.V41e7yhoIjM.twitter
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jul 18, 2016 - 06:06pm PT
Maybe he was going to hang himself.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jul 20, 2016 - 05:39pm PT
Per the link to the below article, it appears some Oregon Republicans pushed their agenda for stealing OUR public lands into the Republican campaign platform.

If you currently enjoy your access to OUR public lands, it would be a very good idea to not vote Republican.


GOP Platform Supports Transferring Western Public Lands To States

The new language in the platform, approved Monday, states:

“Congress shall immediately pass universal legislation providing for a timely and orderly mechanism requiring the federal government to convey certain federally controlled public lands to states. We call upon all national and state leaders and representatives to exert their utmost power and influence to urge the transfer of those lands, identified in the review process, to all willing states for the benefit of the states and the nation as a whole. The residents of state and local communities know best how to protect the land where they work and live.”

http://www.opb.org/news/series/election-2016/republican-platform-public-land-privatization/
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Aug 9, 2016 - 06:39pm PT
Brother Ryan isn't taking well to the justice system.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2016/08/ryan_bundy_involved_in_scuffle.html
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Aug 9, 2016 - 06:49pm PT
The Bundy's keep proving they are short on smarts...Jail behavior 101...Don't mess with the jailers...
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Aug 9, 2016 - 07:09pm PT
ooooh!
Less than a month away, the trial beckons!
I can't wait to hear about this one!!!!

Of course, they're all probably going to be judged insane. . .
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Aug 10, 2016 - 07:10am PT
I am far from a right winger, but I agree that in the western states, federal land is just all over the place. So is state land, for that matter, if you pull out a Trails illustrated area map, and look at land ownership, You will see these tiny islands of private lands, surrounded by state or federal lands.

These aren't national parks, wilderness study areas, or even particularly interesting tracts of land.

Then look at land costs in the nice areas of the west. Super high. I think that the feds (and the states) should make SOME of that land available, and not to rich land grabbers. Perhaps a lottery system, or something similar to the Homestead Act.

Alaska stopped homesteading long ago, yet the feds and the state own zillions of acres. I wish that they would renew the homestead act there, and in places across the west. Sure, keep sensitive areas wild, but a lot of this land is just there, like a checkerboard pattern. Eastern Utah is like that. It literally looks like a checkerboard with state and federal lands holding most of the land.

I'd love to go homesteading. I was just born a little too late for Alaska Homesteading. Buying land in Alaska is a hell of a lot more expensive than you would think.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Aug 10, 2016 - 07:14am PT
When you're ready to homestead I can put you in contact with the last American to do it. And he can talk you out of it. Ha.
hooblie

climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
Aug 10, 2016 - 07:40am PT
http://dnr.alaska.gov/mlw/landsale/regions_subdiv.cfm?all_otc
F

climber
away from the ground
Aug 10, 2016 - 08:49am PT
It's not really that expensive to buy land in AK. Although I guess expensive is relative to your income and your subjective opinion of what "expensive" is.

2500-8500 for 1-5 acres, depending on the location and the deal.
One of the lots on the state land sale site ( Glenallen area) is 4 acres for 8500. Only a half mile from a road.

I have a friend, who happens to be a world class ice carver, who's been homesteading outside of McCarthy for the last 12 years. His place is sweet. They love it out there, especially in the summer.




Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho

Aug 10, 2016 - 07:14am PT
When you're ready to homestead I can put you in contact with the last American to do it. And he can talk you out of it. H

I didn't realize P.H. wasn't American. I'll have to let him know you revoked his citizenship, Lil Bang Bang.

Homesteading in AK isn't dead, the world is just full of stoopid pussies, as Werner would say.

BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Aug 12, 2016 - 09:41am PT
I want a place in the Arctic. I surf the websites showing every property for sale in Alaska, and you NEVER find properties there on those sites. Even Zillow, which is the Google of properties, shows nothing.

I'm sure that if I were in a village, I'd be able to buy a lot, but they don't get advertised.

Zillow rules, though. You can find cheap off grid land even in popular areas, such as the areas around Yellowstone, which is a wonderful area.

You can buy a mobile home for less than 20 grand, in decent shape. I don't even need that. I had a buddy who had young children. He built a deck and put a Teepee up on it while he built their house. He was a great carpenter.

There must be a ton of old homesteads for sale somewhere. A majority of those who did homestead eventually left.

I'm not sure if I could handle Arctic winters. The darkness would suck. Summer is great other than the bugs.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Aug 12, 2016 - 09:47am PT

I didn't realize P.H. wasn't American. I'll have to let him know you revoked his citizenship, Lil Bang Bang.

Homesteading in AK isn't dead, the world is just full of stoopid pussies, as Werner would say.

Homesteading is dead. Thanks for playing.
F

climber
away from the ground
Aug 12, 2016 - 10:16am PT
Base- Check out Bud Helmricks books about flying and homesteading in the Arctic. I did some work on his place in Walker lake. Sweet pad.

Lil Bang Bang- You've got some on your chin, you ingorant nut rest.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Aug 12, 2016 - 10:18am PT
Oh yeah, and Base if you want to get in touch with the last american to homestead, let me know......

Shooting jacks tonight F. Wanna come with?
F

climber
away from the ground
Aug 12, 2016 - 10:33am PT
No thanks, sugar tits. I'm going climbing tonight. You remember when you used to do that, right? Before you took on the full time crusade of defending your FREEDUM!! on the interweb all day?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Aug 12, 2016 - 10:40am PT
41 days of glory.

210 days, and counting, of wishing they weren't such amazing freedom fighters and epic idiots.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Aug 13, 2016 - 01:33pm PT
Animal Planet, and then the Discovery Channel did a 6 part series this year and last year called "The Last Alaskans." It was about 3 families who still lived in the Arctic Refuge because their homesteads were there before the refuge was expanded (doubled) in 1979. They keep their permits until the death of their last child.

It was an awesome series. I've been pretty close to one of the families. Within 50 miles or so.

They are all big trappers. They spend the summer in town making money, and then go out in September, shoot a moose for the winter, trap all winter, then go back in the spring, before breakup, to sell their furs and re-stock. It was an awesome series. If you can find any way to watch it online, by all means, watch it.

http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/the-last-alaskans/the-last-alaskans-videos/

There are a bunch of bogus shows about Alaska on TV, but this one was super well done. I had already read a book about one of the trappers, and it was great to see and hear him talk about living up there. He called it as free of a life as you could live.

I've spent a lot of time in the Arctic, but it was all during summer. I suspect that they go to town during this period because the bugs are so bad, and fur is no good because the animals are shedding. I saw a wolf that was shedding like crazy one day. All trapping pretty much happens in the winter.

I love that area, on the south side of the Brooks Range. I once saw a parcel for sale adjacent to the Venetie Reservation, but it was 75 grand, and I've already got a house payment. I'm not rich enough to just leave and go buy that place.

If I had it to do all over again, I'd have gotten a piece of land up there before they installed the parks and Wilderness areas, to be grandfathered in as an inholding. I'd hate the idea of it becoming a popular area, though. What makes that part of Alaska special is how rare humans are. Like most of those people, I'd never do it alone. I like to do things alone, but I'm a normal person, and we are geared towards having a companion at the least.

BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Aug 13, 2016 - 01:40pm PT
The Bundy's and their friends have a totally whacky view of the constitution. They are big in the Sovereign Citizens movement.

Some Mormons are super whacky. That guy Warren Jeffs is insane, having dozens of wives, some in their early teens. He is now in prison in Texas. They had a compound there, and he is serving time for raping a 12 year old girl. One of his wives.

Now this isn't Bundy's attitude, but he more or less ran cattle all the way down to Lake Meade, and many of his cattle were "slicks" that hadn't been branded, inoculated, or probably laid eyes on. You can't run very many cattle on land that poor. Not enough food and too much impact. The place to run cattle is in the plains or Midwest.

A buddy of mine sent me this Rolling Stone article a few months ago. To get an idea of how whacked out some of these people are, you MUST read it. Once you start reading, you won't be able to stop. I think that they guy who was shot was from the polygamist area.

Anyway, You HAVE to read this story of the polygamist group in Utah. They are as bad as the Branch Davidians. This story is freaking awesome:

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/a-polygamist-cults-last-stand-the-rise-and-fall-of-warren-jeffs-20160209
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Aug 13, 2016 - 01:45pm PT
Well now. Wiki has a page on the Refuge standoff. Wiki has become an incredibly accurate source of info. I use it all of the time in science, if there is something out of my field that I need to be broadly aware of. I haven't found a mistake. Ever.

So this is probably a good account of what happened. It sounds OK to me:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Malheur_National_Wildlife_Refuge
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 13, 2016 - 04:41pm PT
Jon Krakauer's excellent book Under the Banner of Heaven is a great look at Mormonism

Coach37

Social climber
Philly
Aug 13, 2016 - 04:55pm PT
That Rolling Stone video above the article says the FLDS are talking about abandoning the town.

Please do, polygs! Should be able to pick up a 9 bedroom compound, in amazing red rock country for next to nothing if 3/4 of the town just picks up and leaves all at once.

I know quite a few mormons, not FLDS types, just run of the mill mormons. They always came across to me as very nice folks, and healthy. Organized religion of any stripe seems insane to me, but as long as they aren't trying to convert me by force or kill me, they can believe whatever gets em through the night.

There was an HBO (I think, maybe showtime) fictional drama series called "Big Love" some years back that was based around a mormon polygamist family. Seemed loosely based on the Jeffs thing. Bill Paxton was the male protagonist/patriarch if I remember right.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Aug 14, 2016 - 10:57am PT
I had heard of that group, but until I friend sent me that Rolling Stone article, I had no idea how freaking weird those guys are. Adults having sex with minors is a heinous crime, and they were doing it regularly.

Back to the Oregon standoff, the guy who was killed, Lavoy Finicum has a wiki page. I had read before that his main income source was from taking in foster children, I had no idea how many. He was making a living from state payments. It was an ongoing affair. A way to soak the state and live off of the government titty. Odd for an anti-government guy like him:

Finicum operated a cattle ranch and foster home near Chino Valley, Arizona.[9] He filed for bankruptcy in 2002.[10]

By their estimate, the Finicums were foster parents to more than 50 boys in the past decade. Due to Finicum's involvement with the occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, all four children that were in their foster care were removed from their home by a social worker between January 4 and January 9. Finicum stated that this took away his and his wife's main source of income. That represented an enormous loss of income for the Finicums. According to a 2010 tax filing, Catholic Charities Community Services in Arizona paid the family US$115,343 to foster children in 2009.[11]

About a year after joining the Bundy standoff, Finicum ceased complying with the terms of his grazing permit with the Bureau of Land Management (BLM). He would eventually accrue more than US$12,000 in fees and fines.[12]
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 7, 2016 - 10:01am PT
Ammon Bundy's lawyer argues for his client's right to wear cowboy boots at trial

Huh?

Philpot added later in the day in a written motion, "These men are cowboys, and given that the jury will be assessing their authenticity and credibility, they should be able to present themselves to the jury in that manner.''



http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/09/ammon_bundys_lawyer_argues_for.html




survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Sep 7, 2016 - 10:16am PT
Hell no! Jail slippers and bright assed pre-trial draperies for the seditionists.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Sep 7, 2016 - 11:15am PT
No pointy boots for the Keystone Kowboys!!
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 13, 2016 - 12:07pm PT
The trial of Ammo Bundy and his merry band of deplorables is underway. Jury picked and opening statements in progress


read from the bottom up
Updates:
Maxine Bernstein ‏@maxoregonian 2m2 minutes ago
Lunch break now; Ryan Bundy will give opening argument when resumes at 1 pm

Maxine Bernstein ‏@maxoregonian 2m2 minutes ago
Ryan Bundy asked to hand out pocket Constitutions to all jurors; judge told him he may not; she instructs them in law

Maxine Bernstein ‏@maxoregonian 3m3 minutes ago
Mumford: 'Only one side of this .shot somebody, and it wasn't Mr. Bundy. Mr Bundy complied with the law. THe

Maxine Bernstein ‏@maxoregonian 5m5 minutes ago
Mumford: 'How much longer does a people have to be acted upon before they get to act?'

Maxine Bernstein ‏@maxoregonian 6m6 minutes ago
Judge interjected 2x during Mumford's opening, reminding jurors that Ad. Possession is not being litigated,

Conrad Wilson ‏@conradjwilson 6m6 minutes ago
Mumford said Bundy was acting under the laws of adverse possession -- that was Bundy's state of mind

Maxine Bernstein ‏@maxoregonian 7m7 minutes ago
Mumford: A. Bundy's intent was to restore the rights to the people;he didn't threaten Sheriff Ward he contends

Conrad Wilson ‏@conradjwilson 7m7 minutes ago
In opening statements, Marcus Mumford, Ammon Bundy's attorney, said his client was standing up to the federal government
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Sep 13, 2016 - 01:47pm PT
I wonder what the price tag(the whole shebang, law enforcement, legal, subsidies, etc. etc) of this whole cowpoke venture is going to be to the taxpayers and locals at all levels? I haven't seen a tally yet.
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 13, 2016 - 05:27pm PT
Unarmed bears assert their rights in the Arctic.


A team of Russian weather experts claim that their station on an ice-covered Arctic isle is "besieged" by polar bears, according to a report by Russian news agency TASS.

The five researchers charged with staffing the outpost on Troynoy Island say that there are about 10 adult polar bears as well as cubs circling their base. A female polar bear spends nights perched outside the station's windows, making it dangerous for the scientists to exit. They have reportedly run out of flares and have lost at least one of their dogs to the arctic beasts.


https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://img.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_960w/2010-2019/Wires/Images/2014-11-17/AP/Polar_Bears_-07c2b.jpg&w=1484
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Sep 13, 2016 - 09:01pm PT
From Oregon Public Broadcasting = OPB.

Opening Statements Conclude In Malheur Trial, Sheriff Ward To Take Stand Wednesday

To sum up the link, a boring first day of wacky statements by the defendendents, or their lawyers, or both. Only one used
"schizotypal personality disorder".
as an excuse for his behavior.

Maybe that plea will become more popular?
http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/malheur-refuge-trial-opening-arguments-day-1/
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Sep 13, 2016 - 09:13pm PT
The court also heard about adverse possession — essentially taking over land and acting like it’s your own so it legally becomes yours. Mumford presented this legal doctrine as the main defense of Bundy’s actions, saying Bundy thought he was employing that method on the refuge.

Arguing adverse possession? These guys are sunk.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 13, 2016 - 10:40pm PT
adverse possession

Well, shoot, maybe if I humped enough supplies back up into in Black Velvet Canyon and camped out long enough I could eventually own the place. And who knows, maybe this is the true intent behind PTPP's epic wall occupations.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Sep 14, 2016 - 05:27am PT
Sure thing! Maybe you'd like to live in Beverly Hills? Just find a mansion, barge in with guns bristling, kick out the occupants and claim adverse possession!
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Sep 14, 2016 - 06:11am PT
Or you could save yourself the trouble and just sign that petition going around to force Weyerhauser to allow people to trespass on their private land.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Sep 14, 2016 - 07:50am PT
^^ That's not adverse possession, either.
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 14, 2016 - 08:40am PT
It seems that Weyerhauser is already allowing the utilization of land it has title to (another matter), what is being sought is reduced fees, right?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Sep 14, 2016 - 08:51am PT
By the same token, the Federal government is allowing the utilization and I'm looking for reduced "fees" as well.....

But no that was not the premise of the Weyerhauser thread in any event...
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 14, 2016 - 09:26am PT


Sure it was . Some climber didn't want to have to pay $350 to play.

And, Bundy and his cohorts want to utilize and not pay.

I have no idea what the Oregon dudes wanted. I seriously doubt that they do either.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Sep 14, 2016 - 09:29am PT
No, it wasn't. Because then the title of the thread wouldn't have been:


Weyerhaeuser charging to use public land in OR!!!

But, whatever....
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 14, 2016 - 09:39am PT


The guy may have improperly believed it was public land, but all the same what he was complaining about was fees.

I recently moved back to Oregon after a 10 year hiatus and have been very concerned about the current situation on many of the public lands in Oregon where Weyerhaeuser has logging operations. All access now requires a recreation access permit . Permits are sold on-line only at wyrecreation.com for $350.00. Access is 7 days per week for climbing, hiking, driving, hunting, fishing etc. and personal firewood and personal mushroom and berry picking.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2016 - 09:57am PT
The original goal was to free the Hammonds, the arsonists who lived in Harney county. That plan fizzled when the locals basically told the Pooptriots to FOAD. The plan morphed into a range war in which the state (led by sheriff Dave Ward) take over public lands under the theory that the Federal government can not own any land except 10 square miles in Washington. Dave Ward told them to FOAD. The sheriff in the adjoining county started playing footsies with the Bundys, a meeting was arranged and on the way to the meeting TarpMan committed suicide by cop.

Adverse possession became the cause du jour when real lawyers told them that their other theories were ridiculous. The smart guys copped a plea.

edit:
We need trekking and right-to-pass laws here in the US that echo what they did in Great Britain, particularly in the eastern half of the U.S.

I spent some time up in New Hampshire (White Mountains) this summer and the access issues there make me appreciate the west a lot more. Everything out there seems to be privatized
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Sep 14, 2016 - 10:16am PT
We need trekking and right-to-pass laws here in the US that echo what they did in Great Britain, particularly in the eastern half of the U.S.

Oh yes, better yet let's just finish the job and take away any and all private landowner rights. Eh, Comrade?

Good grief.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 14, 2016 - 10:20am PT
Hyperbole much?
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2016 - 10:37am PT
The TapeWorm gets it wrong again
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Sep 14, 2016 - 10:39am PT

you guys getting out much to enjoy our federally-managed public lands lately?

I am, and I sure like it that private property doesn't dominate the big open spaces near where I live. Easements and public access thoroughfares in the eastern US sure would help with the monotonous drape of private property back that way, IMO.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Sep 14, 2016 - 10:46am PT

Oh yes, better yet let's just finish the job and take away any and all private landowner rights. Eh, Comrade?

If I were asked to answer the following question: What is slavery? and I should answer in one word, It is murder!, my meaning would be understood at once. No extended argument would be required to show that the power to remove a man's mind, will, and personality, is the power of life and death, and that it makes a man a slave. It is murder. Why, then, to this other question: What is property? may I not likewise answer, It is robbery!, without the certainty of being misunderstood; the second proposition being no other than a transformation of the first?
-- Proudhon
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Sep 14, 2016 - 11:36am PT
Hyperbole much?

Funny how its only Hyperbole when its not your land they are looking to trespass on.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Sep 14, 2016 - 02:47pm PT
Well, shoot, maybe if I humped enough supplies back up into in Black Velvet Canyon and camped out long enough I could eventually own the place. And who knows, maybe this is the true intent behind PTPP's epic wall occupations.

You can have Black Velvet. I've got dibs on Yosemite.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Sep 14, 2016 - 02:49pm PT
I wonder what the price tag(the whole shebang, law enforcement, legal, subsidies, etc. etc) of this whole cowpoke venture is going to be to the taxpayers and locals at all levels? I haven't seen a tally yet.

Huge. One of the biggest monetary costs of crime is prosecuting, public defender, and locking up people. Not sure that there is a good alternative.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Sep 14, 2016 - 06:44pm PT
Cut them off from the snack dealers?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Sep 14, 2016 - 07:48pm PT
So, are they getting to wear their fancy "snacking out" boots in court or what?
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Sep 14, 2016 - 08:54pm PT
Another interesting day in court.

Lots more at the Oregon live link.


http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/09/two_contrasting_portraits_of_r.html

BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Sep 15, 2016 - 10:06am PT
Adverse possession (aka "Squatter's Rights") is an important real property law matter. I had to learn about it in an Oil and Gas Law class (which is mainly real property law). Real property is typically things such as land or stock in companies. You have to be over 18 to own either.

Personal property is everything else. Your car, your belongings, your money, etc.

It comes from English Common Law, as do many of our other property laws.

It typically works like this: Farmer Jones has a fence on his land, but it was incorrectly placed, say 100 feet over the property line on Farmer Smith's land. It has to be open, notorious, and continuous for a period of time. After which, unless Farmer Smith gives notice to Farmer Jones, or they arrive at some agreement, ownership of that land ends up in the hands of Farmer Jones automatically.

The time period varies by state, but the minimum is usually at least 12 years.

This typically applies to boundary disputes. Where the fence is. If the Adverse Possessor doesn't own an adjacent property, and is "squatting," the law doesn't apply in most states.

Public land isn't subject to adverse possession, so since the Refuge was public land, those guys were barking up the wrong tree. You can't acquire public land through adverse possession, meaning state or federal land.

So you can't just show up and take over public land and buildings and make an adverse possession claim. If the nuts had bothered to research it, and trace it back to English Common Law, they would have seen that they would have no claim, no matter how long they stayed there.

It was also disputed by the Federal Government. This gave legal notice to the occupiers to leave, and halts any adverse possession claim even if it were just Farmer Jones and Farmer Smith. To acquire title through adverse possession, it must be continuous. If Farmer Smith sends Farmer Jones a certified letter telling him to move his fence and get off of his land, the period halts at that point, and starts all over again. It has to be continuous and without notice from Farmer Smith. Farmer Smith should file an ejectment action suit, which is a pretty simple lawsuit.

The occupiers tried to make it notorious and open (2 requirements of adverse possession) by doing things like transferring the utility bills to them. They forgot that the Supreme Court has decided that public lands cannot be seized by adverse possession, even if the guys had managed to stay for 12 years, or whatever the term is in Oregon.

It has been a while since I had to be careful of this, but it almost always has to do with a boundary dispute as described at the top.

These guys had no chance of acquiring the property through adverse possession. First, they were notified that they were on Federal Land, and second, there was no way that they would stay for 12 years.

Like all legal doctrines, there are exceptions to the general rules regarding adverse possession, as well as several defenses. For example, public land can never be adversely possessed. Open, continuous, exclusive and non-permissive use of land, where the land is owned by the city, county or state, cannot form the basis of an adverse possession claim

So they had no hope of an adverse possession claim. It was a nutty idea, even if they had been able to stay, uninterrupted, for 10 or 12 years..whatever the state's statutes say is the period.

This is real property law 101. The occupiers thought that they were constitutional scholars, but didn't do their homework. As a matter of fact, the whole sovereign citizen movement is legally faulty.

Check this link out. These guys were all using the Sovereign Citizen ideology. It is TRULY whacky. It makes for good reading, and you will understand their thinking a little better:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement

The Southern Poverty Law Center, which tracks hate groups, has a ton of info about the Sovereign Citizen Movement. The cop killers who had been at the Bundy Ranch considered themselves Sovereign Citizens.

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/ideology/sovereign-citizens-movement


Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 3, 2016 - 07:17am PT
Per the New York Times, it looks like some long-term good may come out of the Malheur occupation. Here's the most interesting part of their take on it.

However, I won't be writting thank-you letters to the Bundy's.

“Ammon Bundy and his father basically handed their heads on the platter to the federal government,” said Stewart Rhodes, 51, the founder of a militia group called the Oath Keepers that claims to have 35,000 members across the country. The Oath Keepers were active in Nevada, he said, but he instructed members to stick to the sidelines in Oregon. “It was an ‘Alice in Wonderland’ viewpoint: ‘This land is ours, now that we occupy it.’”


The Oregon occupation has also complicated the political landscape for state leaders who have attempted to use legitimate means to acquire federal land.

The so-called land transfer movement has gained traction among some conservatives because federal acres contain rich troves of timber, ore and grazing grass, and certain state officials believe they should be able to decide what happens to those resources.


“What the Bundys did was draw attention to that,” said Jennifer Fielder, a Republican state senator from Montana who heads a pro-transfer group called the American Lands Council. “But in some ways, it was very negative attention, unfortunately. The majority of us are committed to a civil process that is going to be peaceful and isn’t going to get anybody killed.”


The Republican Party platform calls on Congress to “convey certain federally controlled public lands to states.” But neither major presidential nominee has shown interest in such a transfer. Critics say the idea would be prohibitively expensive, saddling states with the responsibility of hiring hundreds of rangers to care for mountainsides and fire-prone forests. And they worry that legislatures would simply start auctioning off the country’s most striking landscapes.



A new legal analysis written by a group of Western attorneys general also places major doubts on arguments Utah lawmakers have made for the transfer of lands to state control. The report was produced by seven Republicans, three Democrats and one independent.

In a twist, the Oregon occupation seems to have encouraged a revolt the Bundy brothers never expected: In recent months, counties around the West have begun passing resolutions specifically affirming their support for keeping federal lands from being turned over to the state. Some of them have been helped by the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership, a group that supports the rights of hunters and fishermen.

“It was backlash against this notion that all Westerners don’t like the federal government owning public land,” said Whit Fosburgh, the organization’s president. “The whole Bundy invasion probably set back the transfer movement significantly. Because it displayed this movement as a bunch of kooks.”

Commissioners in at least 21 places from New Mexico to Wyoming have signed pro-public lands resolutions. In interviews, several said they had become concerned that their state leaders, if given control of federal lands, would start selling the ski slopes, river rapids and trekking trails that drive their communities’ economies and souls.

“We all utilize those public lands for hiking and biking and motorcycle riding, floating the rivers,” said Bill Leake, a commissioner in Teton County, Idaho, who sign a pro-public lands resolution in July. “I don’t see myself as a rebel — I just see myself as an informed county commissioner.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/03/us/bundy-brothers-who-sought-to-rally-a-nation-draw-scant-support-at-trial.html?mwrsm=Facebook&_r=0
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Oct 3, 2016 - 07:22am PT
Nobody ever said the Bundys were smart.
zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 3, 2016 - 07:26am PT
Whew! Saw this thread and thought they did it again.

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Oct 3, 2016 - 07:35am PT
The Jaggamuffin Brigade, working hard for freedom, just like escargot wants it.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/09/ammon_bundys_lawyers_file_moti_1.html
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Oct 3, 2016 - 07:43am PT
"Since the beginning of trial Mr. Bundy has regularly been deprived of meals and adequate sustenance, resulting in physical and mental fatigue beyond what is normal or allowable under basic principles of fairness and decency,'' Philpot wrote.


Too bad
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2016 - 08:22am PT
The Bundy trial is in progress in Portland, I have not been keeping track of the insanity, but those guys are going to do some time over this, and they are unrepentant. The beauty is that there next rebellion will be gun free because everyone will be stuck with a felony.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 3, 2016 - 09:05am PT
This photo from the link Survival posted would argue against Ammon Bundy being starved. Looks like that nice starchy prison food agrees with him.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Oct 3, 2016 - 09:08am PT
Love that outfit.

What happened to the sexy freedom beard he used to wear?
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Oct 3, 2016 - 03:51pm PT

He's probably not getting enough snacks. . .
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Oct 3, 2016 - 06:36pm PT
The beauty is that there next rebellion will be gun free because everyone will be stuck with a felony.

Well yeah, of course. Because we all know felons follow the law and don't ever own guns.

Did your mother drop you on your head as a child?
zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 3, 2016 - 06:47pm PT
Branch Davidians - Ko_resh
The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord - CLA
Synbionese Liberation Army - SLA



Bang bang - you and yo mama be dead.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Mountcarmelfire04-19-93-n.jpg

https://nationalsocialradical.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/skinheads-and-locals-hold-hands-and-pray-together-during-a-vigil-the-night-vicki-weaver-was-killed.jpg


https://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/BN-PD769_HEARST_M_20160728140635.jpg


rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Oct 3, 2016 - 06:47pm PT
Jon Beck...You should know better discussing gun rights with bang bang around...You interupted his viewing of the basement gun scene from Tremors...
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Oct 3, 2016 - 06:59pm PT
...You interupted his viewing of the basement gun scene from Tremors...

"Broke into the wrong goddam rec room, didn't you... you bastard!"

For those who aren't familiar with it...

[Click to View YouTube Video]
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Oct 3, 2016 - 07:08pm PT
Thanks Ghost...
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Oct 3, 2016 - 08:54pm PT
It would be interesting if States started getting organized on the public land scene. If the Feds did not manage a Ntl Forest, BLM, or Ntl Park due to budget cuts the states could step up and say, "we'll help you with that," and put some better management in place.

It might never happen but it's a theory.

A good example might be Calif State Parks stepping in to manage areas surrounding Yosemite so the state and local villages could better capitalize on Yosemite traffic.

Idaho is like 80% federal land but if someone smart stepped in and added a layer of competent management and then tack a 15% state surcharge on mineral, timber and grazing rights all while delivering a higher quality of service, it might attract more visitors and boost local economies. This would be great because have you ever tried to find a decent meal in Challis? Pretty tough.

"Never tax your own people. Plunder the neighbors." -Julius Ceasar Savage


Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 3, 2016 - 09:32pm PT
In 2013, the University of Idaho did a study on the economic effects of transfering Our Federal public lands to the state of Idaho. Idaho, by law is mandated to manage state public lands for maximum revenue to schools.

That mandate includes selling state public lands at auction, to the highest bidder, and those sales are normal with Idaho public lands.

Per the U of Idaho study:

If the State of Idaho were to provide recreation opportunities similar to those that currently
exist on the transferred lands, as well as highway maintenance, the net income would be reduced
by $19 million/year. Payments to counties in 2012 were $33 million on the lands proposed for
transfer. The costs of managing BLM lands, net of grazing and mineral receipts, would be $53
million/year.

In total, after subtracting all these costs from the timber net income, the proposed transfer
would result in a loss to the State of Idaho of $111 million/year under the low-end scenario and
$60 million/year under the medium scenario.


http://posting.boiseweekly.com/media/pdf/pag-ib16_federal-land-transfer__1_.pdf


I am very opposed to any transfer of Our Federal Public lands to state control, since history shows the individual states then sell off those lands to the highest bidder.

Those auction lands are usually "locked-up" to future public access.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2016 - 05:57am PT
As bad as Federal management might be, it is a firewall against local greed. Locals are always going to act in their short term best interests.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Oct 4, 2016 - 06:04am PT
Oooo ooo ooo, Keystone Kowboys ringleader Ammon is going to take the stand today!!
Bet all the groupies will be there!
dirtbag

climber
Oct 4, 2016 - 07:43am PT
I hope they all get sent to a FEMA camp.
c wilmot

climber
Oct 4, 2016 - 07:51am PT
Ironically our fed gov is allowing the standing rock Sioux tribe to illegally occupy fed land by saying it's protected as a form of free speech. While the weapons/intimidation charges will remain it will be interesting to see how this plays out now that the gov is hypocritically allowing federal land to be illeagally ocupied.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2016 - 08:04am PT
Ironically our fed gov is allowing the standing rock Sioux tribe to illegally occupy fed land by saying it's protected as a form of free speech.

That is not a true statement, the Feds expressed a desire to balance free speech with the trespass. The government never said that the occupation is a protected form of speech. Of course you have manipulated the facts to fit you narrative, nothing new.

Ironically the Indians have a claim to the land from a treaty the Feds ignored. Sounds familiar.
c wilmot

climber
Oct 4, 2016 - 08:10am PT
"We don't have the physical ability to go out and evict people — it gives the appearance of not protecting free speech," she said. "Our hands are really tied."
. This is what the gov said. I could say water is wet and you would oppose it.
WyoRockMan

climber
Grizzlyville, WY
Oct 6, 2016 - 10:30am PT
Bunch of ignorant blowhards these fools are.

http://www.hcn.org/articles/ammon-bundy-malheur-standoff-effects-sagebrush-rebellion
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 6, 2016 - 12:26pm PT
when Lord Trump is elected, all public land will become private and sold to China

hurray capitalism!

#HeilTrump2016
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Oct 6, 2016 - 04:32pm PT
Breaking news:
Ammon didn't carry a gun around on the refuge, but he had one there.

He told people to take guns to the refuge because they were necessary.

Gawd told him to do it.

Sounds like a conspiracy to me...
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 6, 2016 - 04:53pm PT
here is a few tweets that summary Ammo's testimony

Maxine (Oregonian)
begin 3:30pm pst

1. After Ammon Bundy spent hours in stand, prosecutor Ethan Knight spent less than 20 mins on cross exam
2. Knight asked Ammon Bundy if he was the leader of occupation? AB said 'no.' Knight took him to testimony when he said 'sort of' the leader
3. Bundy clarified that he teaches correct principles and let's the people govern themselves
4. Knight pointed to Bundy's testimony in which he said 'we were all there for a unified purpose.'
5. Knight: pointed to Bundy testimony that he didn't threaten/intimidate Ward, yet promised extreme civil unrest if he didn't get on board
6. Bundy said he was sure exactly what was said to Ward at that 11/19 meeting
7. Knight asked incredulously that Bundy used GPS to get to refuge but planned to stay until 2036?
8. Bundy:'You're assuming I acknowledge it's a federal property.'
9. Knight asked why Bundy sought to protect the refuge pouch of cash since it wasn't theirs but didn't feel same about rest of property?
10. Bundy acknowledged on cross he made changes to refuge - signs, used kitchen, etc, as part of adverse possession claim
11. Knight: you would take those steps in any govt facility and it would be yours?
12. Bundy:'No there's a process. There has to be a legitimate dispute.'
13. Knight pointed out Bundy brought guns to keep fed govt away, right?
14. Bundy on guns:'They protected us from being detained. I would say they allowed us to express our 1st Amend rights.'
15. Knight also had Bundy confirm that he received $530,000 loan from SBA to support his fleet management biz
16. Jeanette Finicum broke down in tears as she said she'd urged her husband LaVoy to come home the 1st week he went to refuge
17. Jeanette F:'The first part of the week I repeatedly asked my husband to come home,' she said.
18. Jeanette Finicum said her husband by end of first week at refuge had been convinced to stay because other local ranchers had urged him too
19. Jeanette Finicum said David Fry had been in contact with them after husband wrote a book ; she met Fry during weekend visit 1/22
20. Of David Fry, Jeanette Finicum said: 'He has a special heart.'
21. Jeanette Finicum said after her weekend visit to refuge on 1/22, she was to meet her husband the following Sat in Idaho, but he was killed

Conrad Wilson (OPB)
begin 3:29pm pst

1. AUSA Ethan Knight's cross examination of Ammon Bundy was very short, maybe 15 mins
2. Knight asked about Ammon's leadership of the occupation, the presence of firearms, his views on public lands
3. Knight also said Ammon Bundy has a $530,000 loan backed by the Small Business Administration
4. Regarding the loan, Bundy responded "I'm not sure that's not allowed by the Constitution."
5. On redirect Marcus Mumford asked Bundy, "Is the focus of your protest the commerce clause (of the Constitution)?"
6. Bundy said no
7. LaVoy Finicum's wife also testified about he husband's views on the Constitution and her visits to the refuge
8. "I was the city girl who met the cowboy," Ms. Finicum said

Leah Sotille (independent print journalist)
begin 2:13pm pst

1. AUSA Knight on cross with Ammon Bundy. The show just got good.
2. Knight: you are the leader of the group who took over the refuge?Bundy:no... Knight points him to testimony when Bundy referred to followers
3. Knight asks if he arrived in Harney County in Nov 2015? Bundy:...I believe I was? (Me: is this actually happening?)
4. Knight asks why Bundy used a gps to get to MNWR if "your plan was to be there...until 2036" by Bundy's definition of adverse possession
5. Bundy and Knight go back and forth over if it's fed properly. Bundy: "you're assuming I acknowledge its federal property"
6. Knight asks Bundy about pouch w/ $ and cards that he kept safe in his sleeping area that was found
7. Knight: you testified it wasn't yours &...didn't have a right to use it...but you didn't feel that way about the rest of the refuge?
8. Knight asked if occupiers did a number of things to change the property? Bundy: I don't know what you mean by "change"
9. Knight asked if they built a road? Bundy: my understanding was there was a road there at one time...so I'll have to say no
10. So Knight only did 15 minutes of cross examination on Ammon Bundy. I have so many questions about this.
11. Knight: you knew employees worked there didn't you? Bundy: I assumed they did...I didn't know their names
12. Knight ran thru Bundy's testimony about steps to adv possession: you could take those steps in any fed facility and it would be yours?...
13. Bundy: no...you can't just do it for no reason. Knight: so you would decide the reason?
14. Knight: Mr Bundy, you're not a rancher, are you? Bundy acknowledged no he is a truck fleet mgr and lives on an apple orchard
15. Knight: isn't it true [your business] is financed...by a $530,000 loan by the small business association? ..
16. Bundy: I recall it's through that but I'm not sure what exactly that means. Talked about how he got it thru a bank in AZ
17. It was nearly impossible to keep up with Knight. That man came at Bundy with ?s faster than any human could possibly write down

Karina Brown (Courthouse News)
begin 2:19pm pst

1. Ammon's testimony seemed heartfelt. Then he used the same earnest tone to squeak around straight forward q's under cross
2. Knight: So you would decide what the reason would be and go do it? Ammon: That's what the challenge would be.
3. Knight: you could take those steps in any fed facility and it would be yours? Ammon: No. There's a process, a time, a thing
4. Ammon: if it's not enumerated in 10th Amend, fed govt doesn't have right to do it. I can read that, if you want. Knight: no thank you.
5. Knight: 530k small biz loan from fed govt? Ammon: I recall that it's thru that, not sure exactly what that means.
6. Ammon: you have to have a legit dispute. You can't just go do it for no reason. [this is an orphan tweet probably referencing when one can adverse possess]

Chris Liedle (KATU)
begin 2:11pm pst

1. Bundy cross examination underway. Pros: didn't you threaten extreme civil unrest in Nov 5 meeting w Ward? AB I don't recall.
2. Prosecution to Bundy: You did not believe refuge was federally owned, but you tried to adversely possess it?
3. Ethan Knight (Asst. US Atty): You could take those steps for acquiring any fed facility? AB: Have to find a reason
4. A. Bundy was a bit confused on if he was in Harney County in Nov 2015. Knight restated what he met Ward on Nov. 5
5. Bundy testified for 3 days and cross examination only lasted 15 mins. I can tell you observers are perplexed
6. AB has $530,000 SBA federal loan. Prosecution portrays that Bundy relies on fed govt. Bundy said banker got loan
7. Knight: You brought guns to refuge to prolong stay. AB: allowed us to exercise 1st Amend, protect us from Feds

end 3:54pm pst
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 6, 2016 - 06:38pm PT
If he really believes all that, that boy is dumber than a bag of hammers.
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Oct 6, 2016 - 06:55pm PT
pert-near
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Oct 6, 2016 - 07:47pm PT




all this because AB din't getta have crayons in the clink?


http://boisestatepublicradio.org/post/arson-investigation-underway-after-federal-building-idaho-destroyed-fire#stream/0
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 6, 2016 - 09:55pm PT
It's always a bummer to find out the world isn't the way you've been pretending it is. This phase of life usually ends in middle school on the outside.
WyoRockMan

climber
Grizzlyville, WY
Oct 6, 2016 - 10:25pm PT
At the end of the day’s session, U.S. District Court Judge Anna Brown suggested to the defense that they bring a more streamlined case to the jury when they return Tuesday, following the Columbus Day holiday.

“You’re going to lose them,” Brown said of the jury to the defense. “What we did with Mr. Bundy took too long.”


Lol
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2016 - 11:59am PT
The case is in the hands of the jury now. Hope it is not rigged.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Oct 20, 2016 - 12:43pm PT
This would be great because have you ever tried to find a decent meal in Challis? Pretty tough.

Go to Antonio's. Pretty good pizza and the entire staff are some of the friendliest folks I've met.

Although, I don't see how Idaho could step and help the feds w/out significant >15% funding.

And...I frikkin hate it if it involves any 'upscaling'. I've always thought the best places out there had the crappiest food...b/c out there ain't about the food.


WyoRockMan

climber
Grizzlyville, WY
Oct 20, 2016 - 01:41pm PT
Wyoming passed a resolution in 2015 to study the economic impacts of a Fed to State land transfer of management (ownership isn't possible, so wasn't studied, duh).

After ~$100k spent, the results are in. Just what any rational person would expect, a very expensive proposition for the state.

http://slf-web.state.wy.us/osli/News/FinalStudyFedLand.pdf
zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 22, 2016 - 09:42am PT

Hiker warns others after dangerous incident at Lake Thunderbird State Park

Oklahoma families should be aware that unlicensed, untrained, non-uniformed renters are allowed to police state parks in that way.

http://kfor.com/2016/10/14/dangerous-incident-at-lake-thunderbird-state-park/
c wilmot

climber
Oct 22, 2016 - 10:05am PT
The "12 tribes" group mentioned in that incident are a bunch of criminals using religion as a way of ignoring US laws. Beyond time for these wacky religious freaks to go to prison for their absurd behavior. Their treatment of children is pretty much the definition of child abuse. But since it's their "religious" beliefs they get away with it.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2016 - 03:00pm PT
Jury is still deliberating. They have reached a verdict on three defendants, which I am sure includes a couple of Bundy's

The jury has questions for the judge

http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/oregon-standoff-trial-juror-impartiality/

The 12 tribes is also a peaceful group that lives communally around the country. They run restaurants under the name The Yellow Deli in several cities. They do not seem to be a hate group at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Tribes_communities
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Oct 26, 2016 - 08:12pm PT
Jury member 11 was dismissed and replaced with alternate number 18 after insistence from the defense and acceptance from the prosecution.

The jury was given instructions to begin deliberations anew.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2016 - 08:29pm PT
There is a good probability that the dismissed juror was sympathetic to the Bundy's cause. Will not know until the panel talks after a decision.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Oct 27, 2016 - 05:02pm PT
Acquitted for the Oregon standoff.

"the Bundys are expected to stand trial in Nevada early next year on charges stemming from another high-profile standoff with federal agents. "

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-oregon-standoff-jury-acquits-20161027-story.html
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 27, 2016 - 05:33pm PT
HaHaHa! Flipping gubmint can't get anything right. They spent their time
counting the bullets they seized, like that is important?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 27, 2016 - 05:53pm PT
WTF? If you can broadcast it over the Internets and still not get convicted, what does it take?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 27, 2016 - 05:55pm PT
Guilty as sin, free as a bird.

I wonder what the jury saw that everybody on here missed.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 27, 2016 - 06:23pm PT
^^ I hope you brought enough to go around.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Oct 27, 2016 - 06:26pm PT
Well it is only fair,

They never "intended" to do those things.

feralfae

Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
Oct 27, 2016 - 06:44pm PT
Interesting article, but at least I found out why one juror was replaced.
It will be interesting to hear what the jurors might have to say about their verdict.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/bundy-brothers-oregon-occupiers-found-not-guilty-article-1.2848047

Hmmmm...
feralfae

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 27, 2016 - 06:54pm PT
At a time when the fringe-right is on the rise with trump threatening anti-government violence I can't imagine a worse possible outcome. This will do nothing but incite more of the same. Hopefully a Nevada jury will find them guilty.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Oct 27, 2016 - 06:55pm PT
The real travesty is that these retards walk and the Hammonds are still doing hard time.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2016 - 06:57pm PT
Local sympathy for them probably helped. Guys that copped plea are pissed. The Indians are pissed. If they tried a stunt like that they would not be allowed to come and go at their leisure. Ironically they arrested people today on the pipeline for the same behavior.

Makes Lavoy "tarpman" Finicum look even dumber, if that is possible.






Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Oct 27, 2016 - 07:06pm PT
Local sympathy for them probably helped.

Oh yeah. They got TONS of support there in Portland. A true right-wing stronghold Portland is. Good grief.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Oct 27, 2016 - 07:11pm PT
Headline should read: "The Oregon 7 freed by the Stupid 12". My only possible explanation is that they saw this as an exercise of the First Amendment right to free speech and assembly. Guess they overlooked that small detail of doing so while forcefully occupying with firearms.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2016 - 07:13pm PT
A true right-wing stronghold Portland is. Good grief.

It is my understanding that the jury was NOT just pulled from the Portland area. I think the alternate juror was even from Idaho. Not positive so I will not issue an arrogant "Good grief", yet
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
Oct 27, 2016 - 07:14pm PT
Non-whites doing the same thing would never made it to trial alive...

Justice my ass.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Oct 27, 2016 - 07:19pm PT
It is my understanding that the jury was NOT just pulled from the Portland area. I think the alternate juror was even from Idaho. Not positive so I will not issue an arrogant "Good grief", yet

Hahaha. Then they wouldn't be "local" then would they? Tard.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 27, 2016 - 07:27pm PT
Esco, you'd get your ass kicked good and hard if this were a real campfire.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2016 - 07:29pm PT
Then they wouldn't be "local" then would they? Tard.

If you think about it you might realize that some of the jurors came from the area around eastern Oregon and Harney County. Kinda local right?

The personal insults are juvenile.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Oct 27, 2016 - 07:34pm PT

A miscarriage of justice. Just like George Zimmerman, they
were guilty.
Hopefully they'll get convicted in Nevada.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Oct 27, 2016 - 07:48pm PT
Apogee, there is only room for one person to hump my leg. You and Jebus need to figure out who's turn it is tonight.

I'm not the one that made the stupid claim that the Bird Sanctuary Retards had "local help".
WBraun

climber
Oct 27, 2016 - 07:51pm PT
Hahahaha lol

apogee is such a pussy ......
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 27, 2016 - 07:52pm PT
How's it feel to get blown by a smoking duck?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Oct 27, 2016 - 07:53pm PT
Much better than veiled threats by an ITG

Back to the topic at hand. How inept must .Gov's attorney have been for them to not get a single conviction?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 27, 2016 - 07:54pm PT
Go with that. It's much better than the embarrassment of being blown by a smoking duck.
couchmaster

climber
Oct 27, 2016 - 07:58pm PT


Seem to be repeatedly hearing this Supertopo refrain about the trials outcome: "But but but...the media said they were guilty how can this be." Consider that there were 6 solid weeks of evidence presented to the jury, most of which was not layed out in the news.

What should your incorrect pre-concieved beliefs formed by the media tell you about that? Sure, if they'd been on trial for being retards, they all would have been easily convicted. But then, a bunch of blowhard retards posting ill formed and incorrect opinions repeatedly on this thread would have also been convicted of that as well. :-)
WBraun

climber
Oct 27, 2016 - 08:07pm PT
Isn't it all Hillary's fault?

Nope ....

It's the cows fault.

Damn cows ran away from the farm knowing they'd be butchered by the cránklððn farmers and then all hell broke loose ....
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 27, 2016 - 08:08pm PT
"But but but...the media said they were guilty how can this be."

The media did no such thing. They entirely incriminated themselves with their very own words and actions.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Oct 27, 2016 - 08:10pm PT
WBraun

climber
Oct 27, 2016 - 08:11pm PT
Roflmao

Killer ......
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 27, 2016 - 08:12pm PT
Ignorant as f*#k and this bullshit is going to get out of hand.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Oct 27, 2016 - 08:16pm PT
What? Someone from Portland that isn't sympathetic to their cause? Go figure.
zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 27, 2016 - 08:41pm PT
What is a fed?

Were you there jah?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 27, 2016 - 08:45pm PT
There was no militia present at the occupation

They were an armed militia by definition the minute the seized the wildlife refuge.
couchmaster

climber
Oct 27, 2016 - 08:48pm PT


It came out in the trial that 15 of the "members" were affiliated with the government. I was laughing (robustly as it turned out) wondering out loud if there were more government agents than occupiers.
"5. States can maintain their wild lands better than the Fed."
I disagree with that, it seems to me that the states are much more open to bribery and manipulation. It's a pretty fair process to lease blm land or bid on a logging contract with the federal government. I doubt that all states could continue that fairness.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Oct 27, 2016 - 09:01pm PT
Big deal. These half-wits get to go back to their trailer parks until they get arrested again doing something stupid.
zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 27, 2016 - 09:06pm PT
Freak out
F

climber
away from the ground
Oct 27, 2016 - 09:13pm PT
Ammon Bundy's attorney, Marcus Mumford, was taken down by US Marshals who reportedly used a stun gun after the lawyer argued with the judge that his client should be set free.

Classic.

The Ten Gallon Tards waving their guns in the air and taking over the sanctuary were treated with kid gloves by the Feds.
Their attorney got mouthy and got tazed.
You can't make that sh#t up.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 27, 2016 - 09:14pm PT
You're right, Cosmic...Jah Man ≠ Cosmic

He's way too articulate (if wrong) to be Cosmic.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 27, 2016 - 09:15pm PT
Jah man has a total of 6 posts on ST, 4 on this thread & 2 on the Election Fraud thread. All were posted yesterday or today.

Even we smoking ducks can spot ST Frauds!
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2016 - 09:21pm PT
he was attempting to return poorly kept artifacts to the native americans just before he was gunned down.

and the Paiutes response to Tarpman . . . . ..GFYS

Yes the seditionists were so concerned about the native culture, hahaha


Lavoy Finicum died doing what he loved

acting the fool
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 27, 2016 - 09:28pm PT
Here is Lavoy Finicum at the compound days before his death, he was attempting to return poorly kept artifacts to the native americans just before he was gunned down...

Only an imbecile would believe that.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 28, 2016 - 06:42am PT
Perhaps those pipeline protesters in the Dakotas will now declare that they're a militia, too.

If there is any question of bias and racism from the top down, the last 24 hours is proof that:

If you are a white hillbilly, you can take over land at will

If you are native and protecting your land, the Feds will do everything in their power to protect precious oil

Inlcuding tasing, arresting, shooting horses, sound canons, etc.
PAUL SOUZA

Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
Oct 28, 2016 - 07:24am PT
Ridiculous...

PORTLAND, Ore. — Armed antigovernment protesters led by Ammon and Ryan Bundy were acquitted Thursday of federal conspiracy and weapons charges stemming from the takeover of a federally owned wildlife sanctuary in Oregon last winter.

The surprise acquittals of all seven defendants in Federal District Court were a blow to government prosecutors, who had argued that the Bundys and five of their followers used force and threats of violence to occupy the reserve. But the jury appeared swayed by the defendants’ contention that they were protesting government overreach and posed no threat to the public.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/28/us/bundy-brothers-acquitted-in-takeover-of-oregon-wildlife-refuge.html
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Oct 28, 2016 - 07:27am PT
Next time use them for target practice.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Oct 28, 2016 - 07:28am PT
Patrick,

There is one very key difference between the Bundy Tards and the Pipeline Protesters, Occupy Idiots and such ilk.

You might not see it, but I promise you the JackBoots in the riot gear do.


Next time use them for target practice.

Why are liberals so violent? Lol
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Oct 28, 2016 - 08:37am PT
I bet the 7 peeps that decided not to be tried at this time are, um, re-thinking that.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 28, 2016 - 09:11am PT
There is one very key difference between the Bundy Tards and the Pipeline Protesters, Occupy Idiots and such ilk.

You might not see it, but I promise you the JackBoots in the riot gear do.

would that difference be skin color?

Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Oct 28, 2016 - 09:41am PT
The difference is called out in your own meme you just posted.
John M

climber
Oct 28, 2016 - 09:49am PT
I believe he is saying the difference between armed and not armed.

I wish that there wasn't so much misinformation about some of these situations.

Such as the pipeline protest. At this point the protest is happening on private property. What is the history of the property? Just because it was indian land 150 years ago doesn't mean its wrongfully owned now. Some indian land was sold by indians. So whats the real story? Instead, we get memes.

Protests on private property where the owner wants them off are different from protests happening on government land where the government can take its time with the situation.



Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Oct 28, 2016 - 09:57am PT
There is one very key difference between the Bundy Tards and the Pipeline Protesters, Occupy Idiots and such ilk.
I'm kind of curious as to your point as well. Please respond without referring to some other imaginary, prior response.

I have hard time with this given that I put a lot of faith in our justice system. Not that it's perfect, but it's the best we have and, if you accept the importance of the rule of law, you also have to accept that sometimes juries will do incomprehensible things. In my area of practice--probate and trust work--the legislature banned juries from hearing disputed matters because they consistently failed to apply the law, relying instead on their own sense of equity. I have a feeling something similar happened here. It's likely that the jury heard considerably more substantive evidence about the issue then we have, but it's hard not to find them guilty of a particular act that they admit they performed. It will be interesting to see what additional facts come out after the fact.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 28, 2016 - 10:08am PT
We don't know what went on at the trial for one thing. Maybe the prosecution just screwed up.

During the OJ trial I was working with a party chief who was obsessed with the trial. Anytime we were in the van or within earshot we had to listen to the trial. After all that, IMO, the jury came to the correct verdict. They could only act on the testimony given to them. Marcia Clark blew it.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 31, 2016 - 12:10am PT
It is fully within the capacity of an American jury to ignore the letter of the law and base their verdict on their own sense of justice.

What jury instruction is that theory embodied in, I have never seen it?

That would be jury nullification and it is not within the LEGAL capacity of the jury to engage in it. Jury nullification is a hallmark of the sovereign nutcases. It is hard to proof jury nullification but if it came out that the jury conspired, in deliberation, then a verdict can be tossed. There are a lot of deliberations that could also lead to tossing a verdict.
zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 31, 2016 - 10:48am PT
The apparent intersection of the intelligence and jury qualifiers sets?
{}
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Nov 1, 2016 - 09:02am PT
Boy, the faux outrage on this simmered down pretty quickly.

I wonder if the member berries are getting eaten about the whole "Occupy Wall Street" thing and remembering civil disobedience was all the rage and the participants were celebrated and encouraged.

But when a couple of Utards do it and the Feds don't get away with hosing them down with pepper spray because they might get ventilated, you all get butt hurt.

lol
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 1, 2016 - 09:55am PT
Yo Essie, most rationale people on here respect the justice system, what is done is done. Life goes on my friend, sounds like you are the one that need to get over it. In reality the sovereign tards walking free is a good thing because it robs them of martyrdom and their whole whine about how corrupt the system is became moot. Not good for future fund raising (aka grifting)

Essie calls me a tard and farts a "good grief" out his pie-hole in 3.. 2...1 ....
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Nov 1, 2016 - 10:01am PT
As the saying goes, "I cant' do anything to you that you haven't already done to yourself"

Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Nov 1, 2016 - 10:07am PT
^^^
Is that the grown up version of 'I know you are but what am I'?
I wonder if the member berries are getting eaten about the whole "Occupy Wall Street" thing and remembering civil disobedience was all the rage and the participants were celebrated and encouraged.
Well, I think we can all agree that if they were armed to the teeth and used threat of force to physically occupy Smith Barney or the Mint or the US Stock Exchange, the result would have been a little different.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Nov 1, 2016 - 12:06pm PT
Why were they acquitted?

Like, why?

Were there too many FBI informants within the terrorist group occupying the refuge? Sounds like there were and because of that, it left the door open for the defending lawyer to claim there was coercion by the informants. So, now we have doubt interjected into the jury and since we all know that 'no reasonable doubt' is necessary to convict a person. They are free.

Sounds like the FBI screwed the pooch

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 1, 2016 - 02:16pm PT
Ecopeta, I don't remember the Occupy folks carrying guns and threatening people.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Nov 1, 2016 - 02:18pm PT
Exactly.

thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 1, 2016 - 08:31pm PT
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/2016/11/01/c45bdf4e-a04c-11e6-a44d-cc2898cfab06_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-more-top-stories_goldbutte-0825pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 2, 2016 - 07:13am PT
Bundy said the Constitution does not grant the federal government power to own large tracts of land

Bundy should ask Thomas Jefferson, he started the public land survey system.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Nov 2, 2016 - 10:13am PT
^ LOL!
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Nov 2, 2016 - 10:29am PT
Bundy said the Constitution does not grant the federal government power to own large tracts of land

He's correct, but only because that was settled law prior to the Constitution being written.

Curt
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Nov 2, 2016 - 10:31am PT
That one guy related to the cattle dude in Nevada was kept in jail awaiting different charges in that state from the previous standoff.

The others were released.

There's still another trial in February for the remaining people who chose to plead not guilty in the Oregon bird watching/winter camping thing.

As for damages, I don't know. I'm not sure what kind of damages there were. It was a frozen bird sanctuary in the middle of nowhere. But if there were damages I'm sure they'll seek to bill someone as they should.

And there was that one older man who was shot dead after running a road block. Lots of viewpoints on that. Looked like a tough situation to me, but likely a justified shooting.

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 2, 2016 - 10:40am PT
Two dudes discharged.....

With US Marshals....

To go to Nevada...

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/11/bundy_brothers_have_been_disch.html#incart_river_index
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 2, 2016 - 10:45am PT
Two dudes discharged.....

That does leave something to the imagination...
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 2, 2016 - 11:54am PT
hahaha OafKeepers, credible source, hahahhahaa

There are outright lies in that list, do not bother clicking the link

Krissane Hall is crazy
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 2, 2016 - 12:30pm PT
Over 15 (out of 29 total) of the “occupiers” worked for the FBI

29 total, minus 15 informants, would be 14 total real occupiers. Baloney. Best find another source for info.
couchmaster

climber
Nov 2, 2016 - 12:40pm PT


Haha, such irony if true. I thought it would funny if there were more feds than whiners. Re this Jah man quote:
"An 8th occupier was shot by the FBI for his protest."
Had he stopped for the cops he'd be alive today, no? Seems simple to me.
John M

climber
Nov 2, 2016 - 12:40pm PT
would be interesting to know the truth of any of those accusations.

For instance, does FBI plant actually mean that one or multiple of them turned states evidence?
couchmaster

climber
Nov 2, 2016 - 12:49pm PT


^^bullshit (for me) Jody^^ we had a local woman (black girl) jump from the back seat to the front seat and try driving away from a local officer during a stop and she got no sympathy from me when she was shot for being stupid. None. It was 2am and the officer was alone. She's dead and I'm grateful that the cop did the right thing. Sucks that she died but the 2 other guys (who had been in the front seat) had gotten out per officers request and are alive today.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 2, 2016 - 12:52pm PT
double bullshit Jody.

I don't believe in taking over wildlife refuges with guns, no matter what color they are.
As a cop, you shouldn't be into it either.

Maybe Jody would've given Finnicum a medal for climbing out of that truck and not following officers instructions.
John M

climber
Nov 2, 2016 - 12:52pm PT
unarmed Jody.. unarmed. Whether black or white. the guy who was shot was armed and had said many times that he would not allow himself to be taken. i.e. arrested.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Nov 2, 2016 - 12:52pm PT
for the remaining people who chose to plead not guilty in the Oregon bird watching/winter camping thing.

Let's be honest. It was more like Glamping since they had a cabin......and snacks.
John M

climber
Nov 2, 2016 - 12:57pm PT
the problem you have Jody is that you lump everyone together. I don't defend black people who are armed and don't follow lawful orders by the police.

But I do object to some of the instances where a police officer has shot an unarmed man.

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 2, 2016 - 01:36pm PT
Jody hears what he wants to hear. He has a great eye, though.
couchmaster

climber
Nov 2, 2016 - 01:40pm PT
"the problem you have Jody is that you lump everyone together."

I'm with John M there, please find anything I've ever even hinted along those lines Jody. Regarding this quote from Jody:
"If the occupier who was shot and killed was black it would be a whole different story, wouldn't it? You guys would be on the side of the occupiers post haste. "

"You guys?" Find it.
zBrown

Ice climber
Nov 2, 2016 - 06:17pm PT
Finicum actually had a black mother and was a thug who lived on welfare and deserved to be shot, if not hung.



But Finicum left a big clue as reported by the NY Times Today, “I’m not going to end up in prison,” said Mr. Finicum, 54, who often appeared at news conferences wearing a broad cowboy hat on his head and a sidearm on his hip. “I would rather die than be caged. And I’ve lived a good life.”

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Nov 2, 2016 - 08:11pm PT
I felt bad for Finicum as he seemed like a good guy with good intentions but just got himself involved in this hopeless thing.

When he swerved around the blockade to the left into the deep snow, he effectively ran over a cop/fed who had unfortunately chosen to dive into the wrong snowbank when he saw the collision was imminent.

So tensions were likely off the charts high when Finicum burst out of the truck, albeit with his hands over his head. They shot at him immediately which ain't right but keep in mind the confusion and fear with who was in that truck when they saw the door flung open.

Bad day with poor choices on all sides, but not murder IMO.

And as far as the group having a large contingent of state and federal employees, that's always the case. The best way to meet local federal agents anywhere is to join a local "militia".




Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Nov 2, 2016 - 08:25pm PT
Don't forget the FBI agents that were sending in pills indiscriminately and then tried to play it off.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 2, 2016 - 08:35pm PT
Yeah!
I'm with Survival & the sane folks on this thread.

Finnicum wanted to shoot it out with the cops.

Survival:
double bullshit Jody.
I don't believe in taking over wildlife refuges with guns, no matter what color they are.
As a cop, you shouldn't be into it either.
Maybe Jody would've given Finnicum a medal for climbing out of that truck and not following officers instructions.



From Finnicum's published online novel:

Messages 1 - 2571 of total 2571 in this topic
Return to Forum List
 
Our Guidebooks
spacerCheck 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks

guidebook icon
Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Recent Route Beta