Rancher +Militia vs BLM,trouble on the range.(OT)

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Indianclimber3

Trad climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 11, 2014 - 04:38pm PT
This may get ugly
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/11/militias-head-nevada-ranchers-standoff-feds-were-n/
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 11, 2014 - 05:00pm PT
Nevatarded.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 11, 2014 - 05:09pm PT
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 11, 2014 - 05:11pm PT
Nevadastan. Utard. Youda'ho.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 11, 2014 - 05:27pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
dirtbag

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 05:43pm PT
If those stoopid militia zealots interfere and get tazed or shot then boo frickin hoo.
Urizen

Ice climber
Berkeley, CA
Apr 11, 2014 - 06:12pm PT
Doesn't this belong on on the "Where's Ron" thread?
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 11, 2014 - 06:15pm PT
More Alex Jones nuttery for the feeble minded.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 11, 2014 - 06:15pm PT
I am sure Indianclimber, to her credit, is not up to speed, or more aptly
down to speed, with all the latest 'events' that have transpired here, let
alone all the impotent threads.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 11, 2014 - 07:29pm PT
Reilly...Which important threads were you referring to...? rj
John M

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 07:35pm PT
Fees are imposed on national park lands. Entrance fees. Some fees were tried for using national forest land and yes, climbers were against it. You have to pay a fee to use the national forest land around Sedona. Its called the red rock pass. You can complain about it. I have. I have no problem with this guy fighting these fees But his arguments are poor and so are his methods.

Its not whether this guy is against it or not. Its how he has gone about it. Blockading law enforcement is not a very good idea.

Most people complain about fishing licenses, but we still pay it. My own thought on fishing licenses is that their needs to be a national license, with the majority of the money going to the state it was bought in. This would mean you wouldn't have to buy licenses in every state you want to fish in. But that is another subject.

If this guy had a case, I am willing to bet that the Nevada Cattlemen's association would have come out for him. But they haven't.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 11, 2014 - 07:49pm PT
Who is profiting from climbing on BLM land? Grazing fees are just part of the business if you want to use public land for profit. And climbers impacts are inconsequential compared to grazing. Your comparison is retarded.

Red herring for dinner eh?

fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 11, 2014 - 07:53pm PT
Nobody is this stupid right? I'm getting trolled? Hope so...
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Apr 11, 2014 - 07:56pm PT
The NPS charges for bivy permits.

Denali levies fees as well.



Truth is, if there were no motorized travel in the national parks then there would be no problem.

The NPS's problems are of their own making.
John M

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 07:58pm PT
The NPS charges you to get into the park. Which means that you couldn't climb unless you pay that fee. So in essence they charge a fee to climb.

I didn't say anything about BLM land. I did not say anything about user fees on BLM land, though I believe you need a fishing license to fish on BLM land in California. If I am wrong, then I would love to be corrected. That would be a user fee.

There is a fee to use National forest land around Sedona. It is called the red rocks pass.

http://www.redrockcountry.org/passes-and-permits/index.shtml

John M

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:00pm PT
Anytime there's a P-Falcon Closure or any crag location gets shut down, the storm from this community begins.


No difference.

I have yet to see climbers calling in a militia, or blockading rangers from doing their jobs. Have you?
John M

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:09pm PT
I have no problem with people filing lawsuits.

And as of 4 days ago the Nevada Cattlemen's association had stayed on the sidelines. There is a lot of money in cattle. If they thought this guy had a case… they would have come out much sooner. Now that the government is confiscating this guys cows, they are speaking up. But only to talk about the methods..

John M

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:13pm PT
Yes.. they aren't saying that the fees are illegal or wrong..
John M

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:15pm PT
can anyone confirm for me that you need a fishing license on BLM land?
dirtbag

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:17pm PT
Yes, but you don't need one to troll on supertopo.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:25pm PT
I've seen post after post on this forum, decrying the LEOs as "Jackbooted Thugs." Maybe because the rancher isn't "politically correct" by libtard standards, the LEOs are "doing the right thing?" I suspect the rancher is going to get fined here, since grazing fees (exceptionally low!) have been charged, but it could be in a historical perspective, no fees had been charged in the long term past. That sort of grazing sure as schitt isn't worth much. I'm going to guess that 50 acres constitutes an AUM (animal unit), if not more. That's the number of acres annually needed to feed one animal. By grazing the land, seed distribution is helped along, and a certain amount of natural fertilizer spread around (cow manure). I'm going to hazard a guess but the BLM probably wants $2.00/cow per month for that land, which even though it sounds cheap, ISN'T for what's there. The BLM has already spent a lot more than the grazing is worth to "enforce" their diktat.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:31pm PT
I would happily pay $1.35 per month (the current rate per cow) for unlimited food, water, lodging and access on federal land.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:38pm PT
There are absolutely NO access fees what so ever on any BLM land. NONE.

Wow! You ever hear of Red Rocks Nevada? You know, you wouldn't seem like such a stupid as#@&%e if you revealed your complete lack of understanding with a bit less authority.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:43pm PT
Those that

Trespass against the vert

must die.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_forest
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:43pm PT
The portion that requires an entry fee is a designated NEVADA STATE PARK.

Wow chuff, you never shy away from showing your ignorance, do you?

It would be funny if it wasn't so sad. The thing that gets me is... YOU HAVE A FUKING COMPUTER IN FRONT OF YOU, YET STILL SAY STUPID SH#T THAT IS 100% WRONG. Have you ever used google?
Salamanizer

Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:45pm PT
That NYT article is full of inaccuracies as usual.

From what I've gained, the rancher is perfectly willing to pay any taxes or fees to the "proper" authority entitled to them. The federal government has refused to allow the collection of any fees or taxes. I'm not sure why, but it has something to do with a b.s. excuse that there is some endangered turtle on the land that his cattle threaten. Meanwhile the feds pay to exterminate thousands of these "endangered" turtles because they can't contain the huge overpopulated number of them or something like that.

What I do know is the land in question isn't owned by the federal government, it's owned by the state, and the state isn't trying nor has ever tried to collect any fee or tax from the rancher who's been on that land since 1877, with the turtles mind you. The federal government won't allow nor is asking for any "fee" to be paid. Contrary to what the NYT article is stating. They just want the rancher off his land so they can seize control of it over the rightful owner (the state of Nevada) in what is no less than a power grab.

The Militias are what appears to be mostly a fabrication by the media. Yes there are people who are armed, but this is a bunch of ranchers in rural Nevada. I'm pretty sure they're always armed.

Looks like nothing more than another control grab by the feds over peoples rights to me. I can't blame the ranchers for being pissed off. I hope they stand their ground and send the feds back to Washington empty handed where they belong.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:47pm PT
The rancher has been over-grazing the desert for over 100 years. This Las Vegas Review Journal photo shows the great grazing conditions the rancher has created.


What is strange here-------- is all the right-wingers rushing to defend a law-breaking tax-cheat that has destroyed his own ecosystem.

I must suppose those are also their values?
John M

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:50pm PT
Does anyone know if all of Bundy's grazing rights were taken away, or just some? And how much. I can only find a story that says his grazing rights were modified and that he stopped paying all fees in 1993.

It would be nice to see the facts of the case. The number of inflammatory articles on the web is disheartening.

statements like.. the government showed up with no warning. It is clear that they warned this guy for many years. So that is nonsense. Even his own website has stories about the impending confiscation.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:54pm PT
Yeah, the federal government is so desperate for land it is making illegal grabs of useless desert.
Todd Townsend

Social climber
Bishop, CA
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:55pm PT
Does anyone know if all of Bundy's grazing rights were taken away, or just some? And how much. I can only find a story that says his grazing rights were modified and that he stopped paying all fees in 1993.

It would be nice to see the facts of the case. The number of inflammatory articles on the web is disheartening.

Here you go.

https://www.hcn.org/blogs/goat/in-nevada-delicate-20-year-standoff-with-blm-ends-in-a-tense-roundup
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:56pm PT
All over a fuking tortoise...
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:57pm PT
Wow, wrong again there Ricki. Red Rocks has been BLM land for a long time.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:58pm PT
Chief-Isn't that dude on the right Geronimo? ^^^^^^
Salamanizer

Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:58pm PT
It would be nice to see the facts of the case. The number of inflammatory articles on the web is disheartening.

That deserves repeating.



I'm with you, I'll wait for the facts.
dit

Mountain climber
eastside
Apr 11, 2014 - 09:00pm PT
Hmmm, interesting. No access fees on ANY BLM land: Paria River- $5 per person $5 per dog per DAY! Coyote Buttes, same (or at least it was back in the day.) Fishing licenses are not required on ALL federal land, many national parks (including Mt Rainier) do not require such.

This guy is a flipped out anarchist that has been in contempt of court orders for almost 20 years. Want some facts. Read this.https://www.hcn.org/blogs/goat/in-nevada-delicate-20-year-standoff-with-blm-ends-in-a-tense-roundup

John M

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 09:01pm PT
Salamanizer.. can you back up your statements?

From what I've gained, the rancher is perfectly willing to pay any taxes or fees to the "proper" authority entitled to them. The federal government has refused to allow the collection of any fees or taxes. I'm not sure why, but it has something to do with a b.s. excuse that there is some endangered turtle on the land that his cattle threaten. Meanwhile the feds pay to exterminate thousands of these "endangered" turtles because they can't contain the huge overpopulated number of them or something like that.

And..

What I do know is the land in question isn't owned by the federal government, it's owned by the state

Because this goes against everything that I have read.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 11, 2014 - 09:05pm PT
Yeah, the federal government is engaged in hunting down turtles and killing them. Sometimes it is embarrassing to be involved with this forum!
Bargainhunter

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 09:05pm PT
The lessons from Ruby Ridge and Waco, TX should be learned by the feds. In both circumstances, overzealous and aggressive law enforcement further inflamed the antigovernment sentiment of these groups and lead to completely unnecessary bloodshed over serving warrants. If just a single local sheriff had showed up wearing shorts and flip flops, and shirtless to show that he was clearly not carrying a weapon nor showing intent of malice, the warrants could have been served without the ridiculous escalation of violence.

There are many ways to handle these type of circumstances; why does the government seem to favor extreme militancy as a first resort? Tarded indeed.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 11, 2014 - 09:06pm PT
It was still BLM land back then Ricki.

n 1967, the Secretary of the Interior designated Red Rock Canyon Recreation Lands to be managed by the BLM’s Las Vegas District, Nevada, for enjoyment by the public.

Do you ever get tired of being flat out wrong? Or do you just ignore reality and keep insisting you know what you are taking about... despite being shown over and over and over that you do not?
dirtbag

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 09:06pm PT
Does anyone know if all of Bundy's grazing rights were taken away, or just some? And how much. I can only find a story that says his grazing rights were modified and that he stopped paying all fees in 1993.

Grazing rights are actually pretty weak. They're revokable at anytime.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 09:07pm PT

There are many ways to handle these type of circumstances; why does the government seem to favor extreme militancy as a first resort? Tarded indeed.

They gave him 20 years to comply and had to go to court before telling him to GTFO. Should they have waited 21 years?
dirtbag

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 09:08pm PT
If someone with a lease on your property decided not to pay, would you allow them to squat for 20 years before calling the cops?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 11, 2014 - 09:12pm PT
why does the government seem to favor extreme militancy as a first resort?

Obvious answer.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 11, 2014 - 09:15pm PT
How about if you want to raise cows you buy land and raise cows? Seems reasonable to me.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 11, 2014 - 09:17pm PT
Ricki, reread your statement real quick... it appears you forgot what you said.

There are absolutely NO access fees what so ever on any BLM land. NONE.

Red Rocks is BLM land.

There are fees to access BLM land in Red Rocks.

Red Rocks was NEVER a State Park.

You are wrong AGAIN... and AGAIN... and AGAIN.

It is truly pathetic to watch you make such bold, authoritative claims and then try to defend them with ignorant lie after ignorant lie.

Why not admit you were mistaken? That you are a blow hard? That you often don't know sh#t about sh#t? Only then can the healing begin.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 11, 2014 - 09:22pm PT
So what, Weschrist? What difference does it make? Who the hell cares?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 11, 2014 - 09:34pm PT
Too bad the IRS doesn't administer the BLM grazing biz.
Then we woulda seen some serious azz kicking! They woulda rounded up them
doggies and sold 'em off tout de suite.
WBraun

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 09:34pm PT
BK -- "The day Chuff goes to the Truth and Reconciliation Committee hat in hand I'll eat my own hat!"

Maybe you should stop babbling endlessly first ....
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 11, 2014 - 09:44pm PT
I've been payin' my taxes sos it doesn't happen to me - I fear only death and taxes, in that order, with taxes being the biggest fear.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 11, 2014 - 09:49pm PT
There are absolutely NO access fees what so ever on any BLM land. NONE.

Sorry I misunderstood what you meant by that. Have a nice night.

And you have a PhD!

Yes, and you don't.

And there are plenty of other BLM areas that have fees.

So what, Weschrist? What difference does it make? Who the hell cares?

Well, when you are interested in the truth of matters, pointing out ignorance, hyperbole, and hubris can help separate the chaff from the valid arguments.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 10:18pm PT
This f*#king place is a sh#t show.

Blueballs and his right wing malita freak nuts bulls sh#t rant gets his ass handed to him last night by Bruce and has not been seen since.

The guy is getting so beat up on and Bruce is making it look so f*#king easy that he has to go make a thread that borders on inappropriate, mean spirited and ugly. Literally toww seconds after Bruce dropped his last bomb on Blueballs this ne thread pops up and Blue disappears.

Chief shows up 27 beers deep into a 30 pack first thing this morning and decides to pick it right where he left off and take Blues beating for him.

Cheif can you tell us one more time how this is all about a bunch of god dam tortoises lol ;)

Seems to be what you keep turning back to when you got nothing to say cuz someone just handed you your balls on a platter.

WBraun

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 10:32pm PT
With a nutcase Canadian ranting endlessly on the sidelines .....
Sanskara

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 10:36pm PT
No need to come up with anything original as you never had anything that held an ounce of water to begin with.

Everyone here has explained to you countless time ps right side up upside down and still you go on. You do a great job reinforcing the general publics long held belief that you right wing militia types climging to the second amendment are nothing but a bunch of f*#king metal cases!



Gene

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 10:42pm PT
Putting bad behavior on all sides away for a moment, can someone tell me what legal right of occupancy the rancher is claiming?

Thanks,
g
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 11, 2014 - 10:43pm PT
It's great that some-----of you Fox-News loving conservatives are so fired-up about allowing this tax-dodging, fee-dodging, and court-order dodging rancher to destroy public lands by over-grazing his illegal cows.


Is this your vision for America?

(I've been predicting the old-bastard will win, but not if some gun-nut starts killing BLM Rangers.)

fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 11, 2014 - 10:52pm PT
A cemetery??

KYS assfu ck
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 11, 2014 - 10:58pm PT
There's a good reason they are know as right wingNUTS.
Gene

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 10:58pm PT
Cliven Bundy is the last rancher operating in Clark County, where he’s been grazing his cattle on a 600,000 acre portion of land managed by the BLM called Gold Butte. His family, whose ties to the land go back to the 1880s, has been engaged in a dispute since 1993 with the Bureau of Land Management over long-established cattle-grazing rights.

Is the rancher asserting he has the right to use land he does not own without paying for that right?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 11, 2014 - 11:03pm PT
Be interesting to see what mowadlibtards like ANTICHRISTWES would do if them ARMED FED LEO's showed up on his 1/10th of acre plot of cave land and ordered his sorry PHD ass to leave immediately cus it has been their land all along.

That is your honest interpretation of the situation? So, once again, you admit you ARE that stupid.

FWIW, we had the cops show up around Christmas time because a neighbor reported us for cutting down a tree that wasn't on our property. I was sh#t faced at the time, our neighbor's dog was barking wildly at the cop, and our dog was super psyched to meet the stranger in blue. I explained that we had a permit, took the tree off the appropriate land (FS), and our neighbor is crazy. The cop agreed, played with my dog a little, and apologized for any inconvenience.

Cops aren't bad people. Free loaders who poach federal land are.

Maybe they should just move their cattle to Arlington... looks like much greener pastures.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 11, 2014 - 11:31pm PT
Gotta love how it is all "America, love it or leave it" and "Freedom Fries" and "USA USA USA" when a Repugnikunt is in power... but when a Dem gets a hold of the exact same machine the only answer is an armed revolution.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 11:45pm PT
Not to mention if that Dem happen be African American..

Oh yes this has nothing to do with guns rac or anything else of the sort.

http://www.politicususa.com/2014/03/11/rush-limbaugh-admits-republicans-refuse-work-obama-black.html

All you right wingers have flown off your rockers the last six years making your voice so loud as you are all threatened. Threatened simply by the color of a mans skin. In your simple misguided little minds you feel you for some reason are supposed be better than if simply and if only on account of the pigmentation off your stupid skin and because your sick ass parents probably raised you up such a way.


Gene

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 11:46pm PT
Something to do with an agreement that was made back in the the early 1900's with the state & federal govt and the "The Stock-Raising Homestead Act of 1916". The original family consisted of over 46 families in the Bundy clan that settled the area in the late 1880's when it was all "open range".

Wiki says:
The Stock-Raising Homestead Act of 1916 provided settlers 640 acres (260 ha) of public land—a full section or its equivalent—for ranching purposes. Unlike the Homestead Act of 1862 or the Enlarged Homestead Act of 1909, land homesteaded under the 1916 act separated surface rights from subsurface rights, resulting in what later became known as split estates.[1] The subsurface rights, also known as mineral rights, are the foundation of recent oil and gas law in the United States.[1]
Under the act no cultivation of lands was required, but some range improvements were mandated as necessary.[citation needed]

OK. The 600,000 acres in controversy are 937.5 sections or squares. 20 square miles per family in the clan. Cool. If the rancher and his clan acquired clear title to the land through the Stock-Raising Homestead Act of 1916, why is it now BLM land? How’d that happen? Did BLM acquire it through eminent domain? That would have required ’just compensation’ as mandated by the Constitution. Did BLM shred the docs? Did the rancher and clan ever get fee title?

Rancher hasn’t paid rent since when, 1993? What was the arrangement prior to that? Not being argumentative, just trying to understand the story behind the hysteria.

g
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 11, 2014 - 11:56pm PT
Agreed Cheif

for once.

The BLM is on very shaky legal ground in the first place. Those grazing rights were granted under FDR. It's still in court and the BLM is jumping the gun bigtime.. it's happened before.

But this time I think it's gonna cost them.

The media is doing a terrible job explaining the ranchers rights.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 11, 2014 - 11:56pm PT
Both incidents were declared total failures by the ensuing investigations on the part of the Federal agencies involved that handled them the way they did.

Psst also declared total failure by the idiots that got their asses handed to them and fu ckin died for their delusional beliefs and batsh*t crazy behavior
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 11, 2014 - 11:59pm PT
What happened in the election of '94?
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 12, 2014 - 12:04am PT
Ruby Ridge/Waco; code for "I'm an extremist nut job".
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 12, 2014 - 12:06am PT
You guys forget how quickly the feds coordinated the shutdown nationwide of the occupy movement. here for a few months and then GONE in a few days.. hmm..Once the decision was made and peices in place..boom.. lotta heads got beat pretty fast in that one.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 12, 2014 - 12:10am PT
Lock up the crazy rancher and any nut job militia wacko who gets in the way.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 12, 2014 - 12:14am PT
sick of hearing about 'Waco' and 'Ruby'

what about this this sh*t f*#kers?


yeah that's what I thought...
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 12, 2014 - 12:14am PT
While I am no fan of the ridiculous political support the right wing militia types give to republicons.. I am in admiration of one thing they have gotten correct.

America is no longer the land of the free. It's not even in the top 100. It is a police state on par with China or Russia.

Its sad they have no idea why this is but I admire their determination to stand up.

Wanna know why his nation is a mess.

It's a corporate state that only represents the interest of wealth. Our politicians have more sponsors than NASCAR.

Your vote means nothing as the deck is stacked long before you go to the polls.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 12, 2014 - 12:26am PT
Basically Bundy is insisting that the Feds honor their contract.

There is some other legal stuff involved from the FDR administration too Cheif..Basically Bundy has a lot of legal ground to stand on.. and the BLM has circumvented the court system as I understand it. They seem to figure that if they act first and destroy him then it's harder for the courts to reverse the siuation since what is done is done.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 12, 2014 - 12:31am PT
McVeigh, an American militia movement sympathizer who was a Gulf War veteran, had detonated an explosive-filled Ryder rental truck parked in front of the building. McVeigh's co-conspirator, Terry Nichols, had assisted in the bomb preparation. Motivated by his hatred of the federal government and angered by what he perceived as its mishandling of the 1993 Waco siege and the Ruby Ridge incident in 1992, McVeigh timed his attack to coincide with the second anniversary of the deadly fire that ended the siege at Waco.

Siding with terrorists...you disgust me.

Oh but all those innocent victims totally deserved it for what the faultless Branch Davidians and the poor misunderstood white supremacist gun nuts endured at the hands of the evil law enforcement agencies.

Fu ck off KYS
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 12, 2014 - 12:32am PT
Yep we better shut down Vegas..According to BLM logic.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 12, 2014 - 12:40am PT
Once again, let me show what a wonderful steward of the public land, the lying old tax-cheater has been.



Here's a summary of this tax-cheater's right-wing history: https://www.hcn.org/blogs/goat/in-nevada-delicate-20-year-standoff-with-blm-ends-in-a-tense-roundup


It was the tortoise that kicked off the saga in 1993, when the BLM modified the terms of Bundy’s Bunkerville grazing allotment to protect the animal after it was listed as threatened under the Endangered Species Act.

Bundy refused to comply with the new terms, so the BLM cancelled his permit to no effect.

In 1997, Clark County purchased all active grazing permits in the area in accordance with the new federal Desert Tortoise Recovery Plan and the county’s own Desert Conservation Program, offering Bundy compensation for water rights and range improvements on his former allotment.

Bundy rejected the offer.

In 1999, the Nevada District Court permanently banned Bundy from grazing cattle in the area, ordering him to remove them or face a $200 penalty per cow per day. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the injunction.

Between 2008 and 2011, the BLM cancelled Bundy’s remaining range improvement authorizations.

In 2011 Bundy ignored several court orders, including a notice of impoundment. Over the next two years, the BLM aerially counted first 903, then 729, then 600, then 750 head of cattle, nearly all suspected to belong to Bundy, on land closed to grazing.

Sigh.

The shisthead Mormon Rancher is still likely going to get away with all this, but no-one I respect is supporting him.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 12, 2014 - 12:45am PT
Bundy rejected the offer.

Thus no contract was entered and bundy maintains his original contract rights.

crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 12, 2014 - 12:46am PT
Lock him up.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 12, 2014 - 12:46am PT
The government should just sell that land, Fritz. Then it would be someone else's problem. What use does the government have with all that scrub desert?
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 12, 2014 - 12:52am PT
So what we have here is a truly complex legal issue and the BLM jumping the gun before any final court decisions.

It's almost like some corporate executive is running the BLM.. ie lets do this action, then once it's screwed up too far to fix we let the courts decide. Plus it's not like we will get fined for taking action against Bundy.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 12, 2014 - 12:59am PT
Yeah: Great land there for Chaz & The Chief!

Maybe you could buy it on "the cheap" when the Republicans sell off all those illegal Federal lands, and then you could starve some more cattle on it, like your new hero Bundy.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 12, 2014 - 01:15am PT
Not paying rent isn't a felony. It's not even a misdemeanor.

It's a civil matter. Not a criminal case.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 12, 2014 - 01:15am PT
Just stated that some folks have had enough of the FEDS strong arming the small time American citizen.

To the extent that they massacred innocent civilians (including many children) in 'retaliation' for the deaths/prosecution of 'small time American citizens who just happened to be engaged in unlawful acts of open aggression against their government.

Those people were determied to die, to advance their own twisted agendas.

You'd fit right in maybe you should join up and get your ticket punched by an agent. We'll all be real proud.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 12, 2014 - 01:19am PT
"Those people were determied to die, to advance their own twisted agendas. "


Blame the victims, Fluffy. Be consistent.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 12, 2014 - 01:30am PT
Blame the victims, Fluffy. Be consistent.

You think Koresh et.al were victims? Bullsh*t

Actions have consequences.

Comparing these maniacs to the innocent people at the federal center puts you in the same corner as the chief. Not a good place to be.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 12, 2014 - 01:31am PT
Mr Kay,

I'd go with the cops. Keep my mouth shut. And call my lawyer when I got to jail.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 01:34am PT
A local rural Barney fud leo is NOT the Federal Gov't.

This was a Forest Service cop... just like those were BLM cops. All part of Obama's army. The only difference is... I wasn't breaking the law, I haven't refused to pay any required fees since 1990, and I acted appropriately. In other words, I was a functioning part of the society I live in rather than an anti-government extremist throwing a childish temper tantrum after breaking the law.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 12, 2014 - 01:34am PT
Fluffy writes:

"Actions have consequences."



Like what actions? Wishing to be left alone?

Wanting to be left alone seems to irritate the government worse than anything else you can do.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 01:57am PT
Here's a bit earlier picture of the situation from back in March.

“Tell them Bundy’s ready,” the rancher said by phone Tuesday from his home near Bunkerville. “Whenever they’ve got the guts to try it, tell them to come.”

The last time federal authorities laid plans to remove Bundy’s rogue livestock, in April 2012, it ended with veiled threats of violence and a hastily canceled roundup.

Good ol'Merkin anarchy... woot woot!

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/nevada/bunkerville-rancher-vows-resist-federal-roundup-his-cattle
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 12, 2014 - 02:04am PT
Like what actions? Wishing to be left alone?

An over-simplification at best. Not my job to educate you on what the Davidians and Weavers were doing to attract the attention of federal agencies.

But you might want to ask yourself why 99.9999% of the people who 'just wish to be left alone' don't get into violent shoot outs with law enforcement.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 02:09am PT
I would also like to just be left alone. However not paying ones taxes is one of the first ways just about any sane person can guarantee they will not be left alone.

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 02:13am PT
When Bundy's grazing rights were modified by BLM in 1993, it was in part to protect the species, which inhabits the same publicly-owned desert areas trodden by Bundy's cattle and was at the time on the brink of extinction.

In 1993, Bundy began refusing to pay grazing fees required by the new rules imposed on him by the new BLM agreement.

Damn it, Nixon fuked us all in the ass again with his endangered species act!


I was sh#t faced at the time...

Blue, dark green, whatever... I was 6 nogs to the wind. He was FS because we talked about the fact that I used to work there.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 02:18am PT
No chuff, I admit, it might not have been blue. I could very well have made a mistake. I'm man enough to admit that.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 02:22am PT
If you want to be left alone, then pay what you owe people.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 02:23am PT
MeChrist now I'm confused, I didn't think you were a dude?

Or do you just post pictures of women under your photos so your climbing post a get actual attention.

Kidding kidding although there is some truth to that idea. If I get the boot I'm coming back as a hot climber chick ;)

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 02:23am PT
Enough nogs to argue with your stupid ass.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 02:25am PT


The BLM is on very shaky legal ground in the first place. Those grazing rights were granted under FDR. It's still in court and the BLM is jumping the gun bigtime.. it's happened before.

Wrong. They are granted a revocable license to graze their cattle on federal land.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 02:34am PT
Sorry Mr. Landlord I didn't have my rent $$$ the past couple months and I lost my job and don't know where I'm getting it next month

Well I'm sorry to hear that sir but you gotta pay your rent. If not I'll have no choice but to go get a court order and a summons and have your ass removed..
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 02:37am PT
You realize they are talking about over 600,000 acres of federal land... and the SRHA allotted less than 640 acres per homesteader. We know how you feel about numbers, but think about it for a minute...
Bargainhunter

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 02:50am PT
There was an in depth article by Malcolm Gladwell two weeks ago in the New Yorker about the Waco siege.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2014/03/31/140331fa_fact_gladwell

I also read over the summary in wikipedia about Ruby Ridge, which I thought was fairly objective.

I really feel that these issues were mishandled terribly and tragically by law enforcement. The senseless deaths could have been prevented.

Seeing the video of the current Nevada conflict looks like history could repeat itself. The emotions are high, the Fed LEOs tend to bulldoze against resistance instead of finding a reasonable way to negotiate and de-escalate the tensions. Further resentment simmers, then blowback occurs and another Oklahoma bombing results. Further pressure is placed to the government to deal with lawless "sovereign citizens", and the government does so by being even more militarized and belligerent in the next conflict, repeating the cycle.

I bet if there had been a good negotiator, perhaps an non-LEO based one, or perhaps a trusted LOCAL sheriff or rancher or small town mayor or respected neighbor, these conflicts might have been handled peacefully with simple citations and weapons confiscations and reasonable jail time, instead of what happened.


mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 02:54am PT
46 families that were already settled in the area with 2-3 potential Head of Households/Entrymen per family be that number.

Hmmm, interesting. So take those 46 families and give them... fuk it... give them 10 heads of households EACH. That is still shy of 300,000 acres... HALF of the land in question... AT MOST... if there were 10 heads of households per family (unit of measure, not mine)!

Oh, but you say 2-3 potential head of households... so under 90,000 acres, 15% of the land in question.

That is OUR BLM land... land where there are absolutely NO access fees what so ever. NONE. And probably some state park land mixed in there somewhere.
John M

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 02:56am PT

Not according the agreement the feds made with them under the The Stock-Raising Homestead Act of 1916.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock-Raising_Homestead_Act


That has been the Bundy Ranch families defense since this all began in the spring of 1993 all over the Nevada Tortoise.

that was his contention, which he lost in federal court.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 02:57am PT
more than once
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 12, 2014 - 03:03am PT
So what are you going to do?

Kill someone over some beef that's not even a criminal matter, but just a civil case?

Kill someone over a non-violent property disagreement?
Bargainhunter

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 03:07am PT
Also, as I recall mainstream media portrayed both protagonists in Waco and Ruby Ridge in a very dismissive light: religious wackos and racist white supremacists. By this biased stigma, it was very easy for ambivalent Americans to dismiss them as lunatics and cheer on the FBI snipers in Idaho and the tanks terrorizing the Koresh compound.

The same thing could happen to any number of other marginalized, unusual or eccentric groups out there. A Sikh community in the Central Valley or a Vegan "intentional community" commune, and yes you by your dirtbag mobile chilling with your friends post climb...

While I am supportive of law enforcement in general, there is a balance of being fair and not abusing power. Some of us have witnessed some egregious abuses of that power, and that can quickly flip one from being a mainstream supporter to being more empathetic with the "fringe elements."
John M

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 03:11am PT
I agree that the federal government needs to use restraint in their actions, but how long should this go on? This has been going on for 20 years? What should the government do? The courts have said the Bundy's have lost their case. So what now? Just ignore the court?

John M

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 03:12am PT
Not a fking peep from you ecofreaks about that.

That is patently false and ignorant.
John M

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 03:21am PT
It isn't suddenly now. The man has been taken to court multiple times to try and get him to come into compliance. It appears to me that the feds have been bending over backwards to try and work with this man, even though the courts have sided with the feds multiple times. And now the mans time is up.
John M

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 03:24am PT
Chief, there is a difference between land set aside for blowing up things, and land set aside as a preserve. Was the land that was set aside for a preserve really needed as a preserve? I have no idea. The courts have sided against this man multiple times. and I tend to believe that he doesn't have a case because up until the feds started removing his cattle, the nevada cattlemen's association hasn't sided with this guy. He didn't have a case. But now that public sympathy can be brought in, they are complaining. So they knew all along the man didn't have a case. If he had a case, then they would have been hollering about it years ago. If it was a strong case they probably would have helped with lawyers and such.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 12, 2014 - 05:13am PT
John M: It isn't suddenly now. The man has been taken to court multiple times to try and get him to come into compliance. It appears to me that the feds have been bending over backwards to try and work with this man, even though the courts have sided with the feds multiple times. And now the man's time is up.

Exactly, he had all due process, his days in court, and yet still not yielding in the matter - in fact, he says he doesn’t recognize federal authority over state land - i.e, he's a complete whackjob and the feds have had enough. They've stepped in to being the matter to a close once and for all. Again, he doesn't have a single legal or constitutional leg to stand on. Period. Anyone claiming to the contrary is ignorant or misinformed.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:21am PT
Be sure to bitch about it and ask for militia support when your car gets towed 20 years later.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:40am PT
Find another hero, right wingers. Don't hitch your wagons (or SUV) to this idiot.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:42am PT
For those wondering: why are cops needed here in the first place?

Over the years, the Department of Justice has more than once canceled BLM plans to round up the trespass cattle after blatant threats of violence from Bundy and his supporters, says Alan O’Neill, retired superintendent of the Lake Mead National Recreation Area adjacent to the allotment.

...

As Rob Mrowka, Las Vegas office of the Center for Biological Diversity senior scientist who has endured threats from Bundy and his supporters via email



https://www.hcn.org/blogs/goat/in-nevada-delicate-20-year-standoff-with-blm-ends-in-a-tense-roundup




Anyone here ever not pay their rent to a landlord?

What happened?

Did the dispute last 20 years?

I think it's funny how people here scream the Feds are being unreasonable, after enduring 20 years of going round and round legally with that delusional mooch.

. In 1997, Clark County purchased all active grazing permits in the area in accordance with the new federal Desert Tortoise Recovery Plan and the county’s own Desert Conservation Program, offering Bundy compensation for water rights and range improvements on his former allotment. Bundy rejected the offer. In 1999, the Nevada District Court permanently banned Bundy from grazing cattle in the area, ordering him to remove them or face a $200 penalty per cow per day. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the injunction. Between 2008 and 2011, the BLM cancelled Bundy’s remaining range improvement authorizations. In 2011 Bundy ignored several court orders, including a notice of impoundment. Over the next two years, the BLM aerially counted first 903, then 729, then 600, then 750 head of cattle, nearly all suspected to belong to Bundy, on land closed to grazing.

"It's my land"--it was never his fooking land. Maybe he believes in fairies and pixies . Should we indulge that too?
dirtbag

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:43am PT
Find another hero, right wingers. Don't hitch your wagons to this idiot

Bingo.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:46am PT
This is all about the Feds flexing so the 99% stays quiet while the 1% takes more of the resources.

amazing how many of you defend the Feds who rape and pillage the land, then charge you out the ass to climb and recreate on YOUR public land.

What is it to climb for a day in the Valley now? $20 25? Edward Abby I'm sure would be proud of you lining the Feds pockets to enter your land.

The Chinese will own vast tracts of BLM land and once they ask for payment of US debt. Ranchers will be writing checks in Yen in 20 years.
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:48am PT
I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on Supertopo:

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/preemption.htm
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:51am PT
the Chinese will own vast tracts of BLM land and once they ask for payment of US debt. Ranchers will be writing checks in Yen in 20 years.

Oh noes!
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:01am PT
The Chinese currency is yuan. The Japanese currency is Yen.
I believe both will prefer to be paid in dollars.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:14am PT
For now. The 1% will pay whatever to whomever to keep power.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:18am PT
There were several other agreements made along the way between the FEDS and Bundy's. Most of which were done prior to 1912. It is all in the suite filed by Bundy.

Lots of land was already owned by previous purchases and Homestead Acts that were current back in 1888.

so it was the Homestead Act... until someone shows it it would be impossible for Bundy to acquire that much land through the Homestead Act... then it were several other agreements... and it is all clearly laid out in the suite filed by Bundy, which was turned down numerous times.

Hey Chaz, did you read the one about the BLM agents who went to get the cattle off THEIR land, only to leave hastily due to threats of violence. Yeah, what are they going to do with those peaceful protestors simply exercising their 1st amendment right they think gives them the right to make threats using the 2nd?
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:30am PT
[quote]rmuir wrote:

I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on Supertopo:

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/preemption.htm[/quote]

Supremacy Clause:
Hmmmm.
In light of that law, or clause, it appears we have massive civil disobedience to federal drug laws going on in Colorado, Washington state and many others.
I don't imagine there will be a need for drug militias as the feds are too overwhelmed on this front.

We might consider repealing most immigration laws as the feds seem to be overwhelmed on the immigration front as well.

Maybe there's just too many federal laws on the books. Who can keep track?


Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:50am PT
Nothing to see here, just another right-winger leaching off the taxpayer.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:57am PT
bets on when the idiots forming the militia fire the first shots? This is going to be ugly. leaching retard redneck rancher and supports are not going to win this one. and yes... if this leech is your hero... well... get a new one. Superman is a better option.
WBraun

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:05am PT
Mr Bundy should make his all American claim he's protecting the American way.

He's protecting the American hamburger from danger.

Without the cows on the American land the hamburger will go extinct.

Without hamburger all Americans will go crazy and revolt.

Thus he's on a noble mission to save Americans.

(rolls eyes) ......
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:07am PT
Think of the childreeeeerrrr..... all the people that eat hamburgers!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 12, 2014 - 01:12pm PT
Is this the real Ron..? rj
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Apr 12, 2014 - 01:24pm PT
Welcome back Ron.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 02:34pm PT
Ron, what you've explained makes more sense than anything else I've read. Thanks.
Todd Townsend

Social climber
Bishop, CA
Apr 12, 2014 - 02:37pm PT
Seems like the BLM has decided to back down in order to avoid a bloodbath. Maybe the Occupy protesters should have been armed?

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2014/apr/12/citing-safety-concerns-blm-calls-cattle-roundup/
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 12, 2014 - 03:20pm PT
God, Guns and Cattle made the American west.
in the 19th and early 20th centuries.
This is the 21st century in case some haven't noticed.

Presumably we are more law respecting than the Mormons who slaughtered the Fancher party 75 or so miles up the road, just about the time Bundy's Mormon ancestors were "settling" his land.
Or shall we go back to the Wild Wild West? Where the gun decided who was right. Even Clint Eastwood's movie Unforgiven questions the outcome of that way of life.

Bundy has had his due process. Let his supporters pitch in for a good old legal battle in the appeals courts. Maybe they can even get to the Supreme Court where there's a convenient right wing majority right now.
At the present time they are guilty of open armed insurrection against the US Government.
What other supposedly aggrieved parties should have that right?

Gotta love the inevitable fracking conspiracy theories. So why aren't these wahoos out with their AR15s blockading the exploration and drilling rigs?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 12, 2014 - 03:32pm PT
oh crap
dirtbag

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 03:35pm PT
And I still say that this is due to gray wolves.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 12, 2014 - 03:47pm PT
Not one single white person would be living in the west getting their "states rights"on without the heavy federal intervention that went down.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 12, 2014 - 03:49pm PT
If this white cowboy and the BLM were replaced by a Tibetan herder and the ChiCom's,

what would the hypocrites that are crying for his extermination say?


Ron's explanation is right on the money.

I've seen first hand the well fields and infrastructure that have sucked valleys north of Reno dry leaving behind nothing but dry as a bone desert and abandoned homes and ranches.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 12, 2014 - 04:22pm PT
Here is a map of all the well fields north of Reno:

http://www.nbmg.unr.edu/lists/oil/map_color.jpg

Oh, and the water? It mostly comes from that godless, communist republic to the west.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 12, 2014 - 05:00pm PT
You don't know what the well symbols are, obviously. Almost all of those wells are dry holes.

The only commercial oil production in Nevada worth mentioning is that cluster in Railroad Valley. There was a well there that at one time was one of the highest producing oil wells in the entire country.

It is a small accumulation, and there are a ton of dry holes around the few small fields.

Also, oil wells have nothing to do with fresh water. Zip. Water is a nuisance in the oil business.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 12, 2014 - 05:09pm PT
I do know the symbols. My point was there are no fields north of Reno.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 12, 2014 - 05:11pm PT
OK. Post the symbols up and put written descriptions next to them.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 05:15pm PT
This battle between the government and the settlers has been going on since the first pioneers pushed through the Cumberland Gap in defiance of the British colonial government, and has been both antagonistic and symbiotic ever since.

Hopefully, this will spark some special interest articles and documentaries discussing the issues involved and maybe just maybe, the feds will start respecting local opinion more. They have a long history of asking people to settle in those desolate places, indeed rewarding them to do so, and then going back on their contracts and treaties. Maybe even, some of the white folks including the rednecks, will get a glimpse of how the Native Americans felt when this happened.

And it was God, guns and guts that made the West great. Farmers came first, cattle only later.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 12, 2014 - 05:23pm PT
Base you are awesome but I am not going to tell you what you already know.

Jan, local opinion would not exist had the federal government not paved the way. The notion that any settlor would have succeeded without a massive federal military and infrastructure investment is absurd. People out scratching away in the desert complaining about the government is ridiculous.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 05:55pm PT
Looked at another way, the United States as a continental country and a world power would not have existed either, if not for the brave pioneers who heeded the government's call to settle the West. Every time our leaders "project power" on the world stage for the bankers back East and the 1 %, they are doing so on the legacy of the small people who founded the West and gained all those resources for them.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 07:00pm PT
^^^^yep.
Todd Townsend

Social climber
Bishop, CA
Apr 12, 2014 - 08:08pm PT
So apparently it's still the wild west in Nevada. All you need is for your buddies to show up with their guns...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20140412/us--range-showdown/?utm_hp_ref=homepage&ir=homepage
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 08:16pm PT
Jim, my consistent theme that runs from the Sherpas to Okinawa to the settlers of the Old West is defense of the small people and the powerless against outside moneyed interests. And yes of course, that includes the Native Americans as well.

All sides in the settling of the old West were caught up in movements that were larger than themselves that they didn't understand. There was needess brutality by both sides, and the outcome was determined by superior technology only. Those who won were not more daring or brave or ferocious than those they defeated.

It's also a fact that a lot of the animosity that developed between American colonists and Natives was the result of French, British, and yes, Canadian meddling. Read about the Native Americans employed by the British and French Canadians to attack New England and the Midwest during the French and Indian War and later the American Revolution. At one point in time, the British even paid Natives for American scalps.

Right or wrong however, history has happened, yet the feds are still sending out the cavalry whether in Nevada or the Pine Ridge Reservation. Being surprised by the local reaction however, it now seems they are going to round up bank accounts instead of cows, which would have been the smart solution to begin with.


Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 12, 2014 - 08:17pm PT
Well now!

(Yes I know that is a deep subject).

I got onto this strange thread a little slowly last night, and did not get around to posting my prediction about the outcome of this clusterfuk, until post #88. (I had the same prediction for the outcome in post #4 in the competing thread on ST).



Apr 11, 2014 - 07:43pm PT
It's great that some-----of you Fox-News loving conservatives are so fired-up about allowing this tax-dodging, fee-dodging, and court-order dodging rancher to destroy public lands by over-grazing his illegal cows.


Is this your vision for America?

(I've been predicting the old-bastard will win, but not if some gun-nut starts killing BLM Rangers.)


Posting here with the right-wingers was a gud!! substitute for the Friday Night Posting While Drunk thread.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 12, 2014 - 08:19pm PT
BLM halts seizure of Nevada rancher's cattle, citing safety concerns

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-nevada-rancher-blm-20140412,0,1159016.story#axzz2yiYZ49vQ


Mr. Cliven Bundy (any relation to Ted?) has apparently lost at least twice in court already.

Don't be sur-prized to see an order attaching his bank account (do Nevadans still use banks?) and a lien on his property soon.




http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2383234&tn=280#msg2385271
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 12, 2014 - 08:21pm PT
It sounds like a bunch of the gun toting kooks have showed up to have their pictures taken by the FBI.

Tim McVeigh was there protesting during the Waco siege. His name doesn't go down very well around here.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 08:28pm PT
Well right or wrong, I personally find it refreshing that finally there are some Americans riled up enough about something to protest, rather than remain apathetic as they have been since the 1960's.

A new slogan perhaps? - My protest right or wrong.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 12, 2014 - 08:34pm PT
Ed Abby had an opinion about cattle on public lands that I lean towards, but don't fully endorse:

“Overgrazing is much too weak a term. Most of the public lands in the West, and especially in the Southwest, are what you might call “cowburnt.” Almost anywhere and everywhere you go in the American West you find hordes of these ugly, clumsy, stupid, bawling, stinking, fly-covered, sh#t-smeared, disease-spreading brutes. They are a pest and a plague. They pollute our springs and streams and rivers. They infest our canyons, valleys, meadows, and forests. They graze off the native bluestem and grama and bunch grasses, leaving behind jungles of prickly pear. They trample down the native forbs and shrubs and cacti. They spread the exotic cheatgrass, the Russian thistle, and the crested wheat grass. Weeds.

“I… suggest that we open a hunting season on range cattle. I realize that beef cattle will not make sporting prey at first. Like all domesticated animals (including most humans), beef cattle are slow, stupid, and awkward. But the breed will improve if hunted regularly. And as the number of cattle is reduced, other and far more useful, beautiful, and interesting animals will return to the range lands and will increase.”

(From “Free Speech: The Cowboy and His Cow,” 1985.)


Thanks to the below website!

Read more: http://coyot.es/crossing/2014/04/11/ed-abbey-on-cliven-bundy/#ixzz2yinqR5DP

John M

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 08:43pm PT
Well right or wrong, I personally find it refreshing that finally there are some Americans riled up enough about something to protest, rather than remain apathetic as they have been since the 1960's.

did you forget the occupy movement? did you forget the marches against the Iraq war?

So today the feds released all 400 head of cattle that they confiscated, proving that they didn't kill any of them nor did they use backhoes to bury them. Something those people in the videos were screaming about.


with these people its just one lie after another.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 08:53pm PT
Parasols at High Noon?

Why don't we all just blame the Brits and call it a day?
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 08:58pm PT
Why did the settlers need guns?

-To hunt for food
-To defend against animals
-To defend against Indians-
-To defend against a lot of bad white guys who headed out West, especially after the Civil War
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:07pm PT
If Nevada upsets you so,, please feel free to stay the hell out. Leave our crags, our cities and towns alone.

Sweet! Does this mean we won't be seeing you in Woodfords anytime soon, since we all know how bad California upsets you?
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:09pm PT
Jim, I had to mumble my way through the pledge of allegiance and the Lord's prayer in public schools in Texas without anything so pleasing as the young Queen Elizabeth to look at. As far as anthems go, at least yours is easier to sing.

However, I still can't understand if you have your own constitution now, why the Queen is still on your stamps and money?
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:17pm PT
Bravo Ron for the tour de force explanation and opinion. Base, as he often is, is wrong, there are other producing oil fields past and present in the state and virtually the whole state is staked by mega mining companies.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:18pm PT
Well at least the Brits didn't steal the Canadian sense of humor!

I'm rolling in the aisles here.

But I wonder if Robin William sang that song before or after John Belushi decided to invade Canada for being too orderly and clean?
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:24pm PT
As for the Indians, God and guns. They had the Great Spirit which carries a lot less baggage and they got guns as soon as they could.

To push all buttons while I'm at it, I did read something very interesting from an old Inuit/Eskimo who told researchers that wolves did use to kill a lot of Inuit and Indians until they got guns and then the wolves learned to fear them and left them alone.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:35pm PT
Not so fast.

You're the smart ones who sent free wolves to Wyoming and Montana.



Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:40pm PT
Ya know, leadership in the States is pretty poor. Get young William on the throne with some bad azz leadership and maybe we Yanks will sign back on to the kingdom (just for fun, we'd still keep our guns).
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:48pm PT
I could go for Princess Kate on our money. She's better looking than a buffalo.
jstan

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:49pm PT
Nevada ranching family claims victory as U.S. government releases cattle
BY JENNIFER DOBNER
BUNKERVILLE, Nevada Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:16pm EDT

(Reuters) - U.S. officials ended a stand-off with hundreds of armed protesters in the Nevada desert on Saturday, calling off the government's roundup of cattle it said were illegally grazing on federal land and giving about 300 animals back to the rancher who owned them.

The dispute less than 80 miles northeast of Las Vegas between rancher Cliven Bundy and the U.S. Bureau of Land Management had simmered for days. Bundy had stopped paying fees for grazing his cattle on the government land and officials said he had ignored court orders.

Anti-government groups, right-wing politicians and gun-rights activists camped around Bundy's ranch to support him, in a standoff that tapped into long-simmering anger in Nevada and other Western states, where vast tracts of land are owned and governed by federal agencies.

The bureau had called in a team of armed rangers to Nevada to seize the 1,000 head of cattle on Saturday but backed down in the interests of safety.

"Based on information about conditions on the ground and in consultation with law enforcement, we have made a decision to conclude the cattle gather because of our serious concern about the safety of employees and members of the public," the bureau's director, Neil Kornze, said in a statement.

The protesters, who at the height of the standoff numbered about 1,000, met the news with applause. Then they quickly advanced on the metal pens where the cattle confiscated earlier in the week were being held.

After consultations with the rancher's family, the bureau decided to release the cattle it had rounded up, and the crowd began to disperse.

"This is what I prayed for," said Margaret Houston, one of Bundy's sisters. "We are so proud of the American people for being here with us and standing with us."

A number of Bundy's supporters, who included militia members from California, Idaho and other states, dressed in camouflage and carried rifles and sidearms. During the stand-off, some chanted "open that gate" and "free the people."

A man who identified himself as Scott, 43, said he had traveled from Idaho along with two fellow militia members to support Bundy.

"If we don't show up everywhere, there is no reason to show up anywhere," said the man, dressed in camouflage pants and a black flak jacket crouched behind a concrete highway barrier, holding an AR-15 rifle. "I'm ready to pull the trigger if fired upon," Scott said.

LONG-SIMMERING ANGER

The dispute between Bundy and federal land managers began in 1993 when he stopped paying monthly fees of about $1.35 per cow-calf pair to graze public lands that are also home to imperiled animals such as the Mojave Desert tortoise. The government also claims Bundy has ignored cancellation of his grazing leases and defied federal court orders to remove his cattle.

"We won the battle," said Ammon Bundy, one of the rancher's sons.

Hundreds of Bundy supporters, some heavily armed, had camped on the road leading to his ranch in a high desert spotted with sagebrush and mesquite trees. Some held signs reading "Americans united against government thugs," while others were calling the rally the "Battle of Bunkerville," a reference to a American Revolutionary War battle of Bunker Hill in Boston.

The large crowd at one point blocked all traffic on Interstate 15. Later, as lanes opened up, motorists honked to support the demonstrators and gave them a thumbs-up sign.

In an interview prior to the bureau's announcement, Bundy said he was impressed by the level of support he had received.

"I'm excited that we are really fighting for our freedom. We've been losing it for a long time," Bundy said.

An official with an environmental group that had notified the government it would sue unless federal land managers sought to protect tortoises on the grazing allotment used by Bundy's cattle expressed outrage at the end of the cattle roundup.

"The sovereign militias are ruling the day," said Rob Mrowka, senior scientist with the Center for Biological Diversity. "Now that this precedent has been set and they're emboldened by the government's capitulation, what's to stop them from applying the same tactics and threats elsewhere?"

Roger Taylor, retired district manager with the Bureau of Land Management in Arizona, also said the agency's decision to release the cattle will have repercussions.

"The (agency) is going to be in a worse situation where they will have a much more difficult time getting those cattle off the land and getting Bundy in compliance with regulations," he said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/13/us-usa-ranchers-nevada-idUSBREA3B03Q20140413


zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:52pm PT
Wounded Knee 1891


If you're an artist, you can draw your own conclusions

Wounded Knee 1973


During the 71 day occupation, two AIM supporters were killed and a deputy marshal wounded.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:52pm PT
And it was God, guns and guts that made the West great. Farmers came first, cattle only later
Jan, I'm surprised you're the only one who caught my deliberately leaving out the farmers and sheep ranchers.
All that's left now is God, Guns and Cattle.

And the environmental desolation caused by overgrazing. It's rather ironic that the cattlemen blamed the sheep for denuding the landscape, eating all the good feed and pissing in the creeks and ponds. Now there are only cattle (with a few high mountain sheep exceptions) has the landscape recovered?
NOPE.
Have you ever hiked or camped in an area where range cattle graze? I have, many times. It's not very pretty, especially near water. Have you compared it to land that has been subsequently fenced off to keep the cattle out? There has been some very good work done on the problem of reclaiming cattle land by the Southwest Research Institute in Albuquerque.

You try running up a $300K tax bill and see if you get to keep your house, car, cattle, etc. You're even likely to lose your wife/husband. Try not paying your landlord the rent.
And what about all the Republitards who're bitching about uncollected taxes? Inefficient Gummint Burrocracy they call it.

I say give all the gun-totin' protesters 2 hours to get outta Dodge with their weapons and then have the Army Engineers over to build a fence around Bundy, his pals AND his cattle. Take down the fence when the bill has been paid AND the cattle have all been sent to the abattoir.
mrtropy

Trad climber
Nor Cal
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:53pm PT
Looks like the desert lost, fuuuck he was just some redneck Moron.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:56pm PT
Dingy Harry Reid and his cronies lost.

Not the desert.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:59pm PT
Base, as he often is, is wrong, there are other producing oil fields past and present in the state and virtually the whole state is staked by mega mining companies.

Where are these fields, Rick?

Perhaps you don't remember that I have access to data on every well drilled in the U.S. since about 1930. I download it in a matter of minutes and import it into my work software. It is pretty pricey.

Nevada is mainly a hard rock mining province, true, but I never said otherwise. I said that it isn't very interesting from a petroleum point of view. I've discussed it with other geologists, and have been aware of Railroad Valley for decades.

Go ahead and try to refute me. I am pretty tolerant of different viewpoints, but I tired of you and The Chief long ago.

Again. This situation seems like an eery phantom of the Waco incident, in the fact that it brought some real nut cases out of the shadows. One of them was Tim McVeigh. He would fit in well with the videos I have seen of the "Patriot" gun movement.

My wife and toddler son were only 9 blocks from the Murrah building when McVeigh's bomb went off. I have no sympathy for these types.
WBraun

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:04pm PT
What would rock climbers do?

Throw rocks ..... ?????
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:06pm PT
The Fed LEO's were wise to pull back and let the domestic terrorists and other wacko's dance around and howl. That Bundy dude is in for some administrative/civil trouble come Monday morning. He's had.

Maybe I want to go camping out there with my family. Is Bundy and Co. gonna try and kick me off with his band of armed skinhead thugs from Idaho in black flack jackets?
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:09pm PT
High Traverse, that's definitely an innovative solution.

What I would hope is that this will start a dialogue about the issues of land use in the West. As water becomes more and more scarce, there are bound to be more conflicts.

I think what outsiders fail to grasp however, which does now seem to be coming to light, is how angry the descendants of the pioneers who still have a hard struggle to survive, feel at outside interference from people who sacrifice nothing. When the folks in Los Vegas and LA give up their swimming pools and green grass, then the old time ranchers will be more sympathetic to arguments about the environment.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:10pm PT
Thanks for your input BASE.

When I heard this was about petroleum I was skeptical. Hard rock minerals... sure. Hydrothermal... maybe. But enough petroleum in Nevada to justify this kind of land swoggle? Far more likely to be a crotchety old rancher who is pissed he can't freeload on public lands anymore... taking advantage of the small minded idiots willing to start a civil war at the drop of a hat.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:12pm PT
The Bureau of Land Management, whose director was Sen. Harry Reid’s (D-Nev.) former senior adviser, has purged documents from its web site stating that the agency wants Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy’s cattle off of the land his family has worked for over 140 years in order to make way for solar panel power stations. -



xtrmecat

Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:13pm PT
What a crock. I watched the story unfold over the last two days. I watched the climax and end of the standoff via live feed for over three hours today. The BLM didn't end anything. They lost control of the standoff against a pile of unarmed civilians and having no legal right to even be there backed off because their armed threats to open fire on the crowd fell on deaf ears. Clark County sheriff had the only power to do anything, and he intervened at the end to avoid a slaughter and uphold the ranchers legal right to keep his cattle on the grazing land.

Almost a total media blackout. 8 Billion dollar contract to ENN not going to happen. Media will have to work very hard to cover this up. Many armed people got turned around while on their way to fix the BLM and their armed takeover attempt.

The biased information out there right now is far from what I watched live.

Burly Bob
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:13pm PT
What a great load of unsupported sh#t there TGT. You never cease to disappoint.

Clark County sheriff had the only power to do anything, and he intervened at the end to avoid a slaughter and uphold the ranchers legal right to keep his cattle on the grazing land.

Sorry bud, but it ain't within the sheriff's jurisdiction to uphold grazing rights on BLM land. But don't let the truth get in the way of your opinion!
xtrmecat

Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:17pm PT
Look deeper Mechrist, he is spot on by what I watched today. Documents are already available on line.

Burly Bob
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:18pm PT
descendants of the pioneers who still have a hard struggle to survive

My Great-grandparents homesteaded legitimately, but lost in court against the railroad (how could an ordinary family win?) I think it's a lot more complicated. Did the Bundy family have a homestead?

If it's a federal reserve or federal land, all Americans are owed something by someone who profits off of that land.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:18pm PT
Ain't so. I know from expurience. County sheriff don't do sh#t about illegal grazing. And they shur as sh#t don't enforce grazing rights on federal land that have been been struck down twice in court.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:29pm PT
how angry the descendants of the pioneers who still have a hard struggle to survive, feel at outside interference from people who sacrifice nothing
Lovely romantic notion of the West. Having lived out here most of my life, most of it in rural areas, I know the vast majority of ranchers are like the rest of us. Work hard, pay their taxes, pay their bills, obey the law, complain at the pub and vote in elections.
When they get really worked up they write letters to the newspaper, perhaps even go to the county commission meeting (I've done that a couple of times) or write their Senator/Congressman (I've done that many times) or go to their legislator's town hall meeting (been there and done that too).
Bundy is just a tax dodging anti-democratic nutcase. He's had his day in court, had about 15 years to put it right and to exercise his freedom of speech.
He is a criminal masquerading as a Freedom Hero. I wouldn't be surprised if Clark County or the Justice Dept have put out a warrant for his arrest.

Do you feel safer now that the "militia" wackos have stared down the Law?
I don't THINK so.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:30pm PT
Just as a matter of fact and for the record; the Sheriff of any County is THE senior LEO present, and the Feds KNOW that. He could arrest them at the drop of a hat. When the Sheriff (not a Deputy) showed up, the game was over. If the Sheriff tells them to leave, they leave.
xtrmecat

Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:31pm PT
Sheriff has the only power of arrest in this case. He has all the power over the BLM if their actions are iillegal and in his jurisdiction.

You may want to take a minute and do some sniffing around.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:37pm PT
If Mr. Bundy has the correct advice, he will seek redress in the United States Court of claims, and not in District Court.

There's a very good book on this very topic: "Storm over Rangelands," written by Wayne Hage, who had a similar case involving his grazing and water rights on homesteaded land. He won his case in the Court of Claims, but would have lost in District Court. Later on, his wife was Helen Cheneweth, the U.S. Congresswoman from Idaho. He had excellent advice on what to do.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:41pm PT
Burley Bob-

The Sheriff can also issue an order to "cease and desist" any activity that could prove injurious to a resident of his county. I happen to know my present Sheriff very well, and I've been advised of that fact by THE MAN.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:43pm PT
Bruce-

Since all we have is second and third hand information, we don't know what advice he's had.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:45pm PT
Sheriff has the only power of arrest in this case. He has all the power over the BLM if their actions are iillegal and in his jurisdiction.

Yeah, but that isn't what you said chief. You said

Clark County sheriff had the only power to do anything, and he intervened at the end to avoid a slaughter and uphold the ranchers legal right to keep his cattle on the grazing land.

Which is simply wrong, as I pointed out. If yall would stop hyperbolizing every fuking aspect of every fuking story and stay at least somewhat consistent with your claims you might find you have a tad more support. As it is you all look like a bunch of headless sociopaths running around looking for any possible excuse to fight the power, often changing your claims hour by hour. If you are going to start a revolution you might want to put a little more thought into it. Yall act like teenage anarchists... with way worse music... and far too eager to spill blood.

So far I've read wingnuts claiming: 1) it is legally Bundy's land (all 600,000 acres), 2) it is state land, 3) it was Bundy's land that the BLM stole from him (but two courts disagree), 4) the Feds are stealing the land for endangered tortoises, no wait 5) oil... what, no oil... I mean 6) minerals. And now the local sheriff is "upholding the rancher's legal right" to graze his cattle on federal land... against multiple court orders, which kinda destroys the whole "legal right" part.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:46pm PT
A succinct summary of the US Gov't position:
"We remain disappointed that Cliven Bundy continues to not comply with the same laws that 16,000 public lands ranchers do every year," said the BLM director in the release. "After 20 years and multiple court orders to remove the trespass cattle, Mr. Bundy owes the American taxpayers in excess of $1 million. The BLM will continue to work to resolve the matter administratively and judicially."
Credit: Salt Lake Tribune
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57810957-78/amp-cattle-bundy-blm.html.csp
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:53pm PT
But...but...doesn't everyone LOVE Big Brother?

George Orwell, 1984.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:58pm PT
Bundy and his fellow violent far right wing extremists win round 1. See ya in court, traitor.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:02pm PT
The point most here have no knowledge of, is the content and phraseology in the Homestead acts; which most lawyers don't, either. If Bundy's land was ever homesteaded, and he is the heir or assign thereto, there's absolutely NO way his title can be denied or set aside. Going into the law completely illustrates that the land cannot even be assessed property taxes! I suspect that Mr. Bundy will ultimately prevail in court, and the United States Court of Claims will uphold him if homesteaded land is involved.

To whom are you addressing as traitor?
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:04pm PT
I think there are two separate issues here. One is the specific case of Bundy and the other is the anger and distrust of a large segment of the public, especially out West and in the South, toward our supposedly democratic government. I'm beginning to think there are not just red states and blue states but a red nation and a blue nation within our supposedly one nation.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:06pm PT
brokedown, are you suggesting Bundy owns all 600,000 acres in question? Very doubtful. I'm sure he owns some... but that isn't the point. He has been illegally grazing his cattle on federal land, not his land, and has not been paying the appropriate fees... because he is a freeloading teabagger anarchist.
Madbolter

Big Wall climber
I used to be hard
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:12pm PT
Brokedownclimber

All over a fuking tortoise...

Maybe. Maybe not.

http://appalachianareanews.com/busted-bundy-ranch-siege-really-about-harry-reid-backed-solar-power-stations/
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:14pm PT
Brokedown: There is much I want to say on this thread, but since you bring this up!

Later on, his wife was Helen Cheneweth, the U.S. Congresswoman from Idaho. He had excellent advice on what to do.


I have found it interesting that Miz Cheneweth, whose entire political career, was based on opposing Government regulations: died because she had not fastened her seat-belt.

On October 2, 2006, Chenoweth-Hage was killed after being thrown from the passenger seat of a sport utility vehicle that overturned on an isolated highway in central Nevada, near Tonopah. She was not wearing a seatbelt and was thrown from the car. Her (step) daughter-in-law and grandson, who were also in the vehicle, suffered only minor injuries.[16]

Nearly poetic justice.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:14pm PT
As I understand it Bundy had some of his grazing rights revoked and then stopped paying grazing fees on all of it, which was his mistake. Don't forget they got Al Capone on tax evasion, not bootlegging or murder.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:17pm PT
The answer there is: who TF knows how much land he owns? He's a member of the LDS church with huge families, and some of that land earlier was sold by the section for next to nothing. a section is 640 acres, by the way I don't know what the price was but it could have been as low as 5 cents an acre. I do recall when I was at the University in Laramie in the 1960s, Alcoa bought up hundreds of sections with Alumina ore (Bauxite) at $25,000 a section and everyone thought they were insane to pay that much for $0.50 an acre land!
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:17pm PT

The various homestead acts provided for transfer of title in fee of lands to individuals under certain circumstances. None of those acts allowed more than taking more than quarter of a section and none required payment of grazing fees after transfer of title. If Mr. Bundy has title to lands he can easily prove it.
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:20pm PT
It would be one thing if Bundy offered his beef at a discount well below what normal ranchers who pay the fees. If Bundy's beef is at full market price, haul him to jail for ripping off the American people. If Bundy cut the price to exclude costs for property taxes, permit fees, mortgage, etc. like everyone else pays, I'd be first in line for his welfare range-fed beef.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:29pm PT
If he has the land via the Homestead Act then he's got a deed. Even if he can't find it, it was recorded when it was granted.
I'm pretty sure the largest piece of land granted under the Homestead Act (actually there were several) was 640 acres. One section. And that wasn't until 1904.
I doubt there is any Homestead Act issue here.

Bundy claims his rights devolve from his Mormon ancestors.
Bundy claims his ancestors worked the land long before the BLM was formed, giving him rights that predate federal involvement.
From the preceding SLTribune article.

The Mormons founded the town of Mesquite (next to Bunkerville) in 1880. Bunkerville was founded as a cooperative community in 1877 but that experiment ended in 1880.

From the March 27 Bunkerville town meeting minutes:
COMMENT: Representatives from the BLM or NPS had advised earlier in the week they would not attend. Janice provided the phone numbers for Senator Reed and Congressman Heller and suggested that everyone call to let them know this round up issue is a problem. At a minimum it is disrespectful that they did not come to the meeting tonight to let you know what is going on. Ryan Bundy stated they don’t agree that the Federal Government controls the land the cattle are on, that should be State land. He said they have used the land since 1887, and they will resist any attempt by the BLM to take their cattle. Some Board members expressed concern that the land would remain closed after the cattle were removed.

No mention of "this round up issue" in any previous meeting back as far as August.
They had another big public safety/nuisance problem then.
Issues surrounding Bunkerville 4th of July water fight – discussion and possible action. Duane said the water fight is getting out of hand and people are being water blasted that do not want to participate. It has become a free for all.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:33pm PT
Bruce, I really don't know. I'm still trying to figure it all out. It sure isn't how people thought in Japan!

Part of it was that we were so naive and propagandized by the government before, that when we began to see how things really work, we swung too far in the opposite direction, seeing conspiracies everywhere and becoming overly cynical?

Or the fact that the average person doesn't get as much benefit from the government as other citizens of modern democracies do, yet we have as much or more bureaucracy and regulation as the others.

Or maybe just too much change too fast?

or maybe just too many grumpy old baby boomers?

I don't know.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:38pm PT
Taxpayer-subsidized grazing isn't a benefit?
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:44pm PT
Well Base, the Pine valley fields immediately come to mind as well Elko county and its big bet by Noble Energy.
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:45pm PT
I sure don’t blame the people out there who are squatting on public land from resisting having to move to the city and either get a real job or stand in line like everyone else for a free handout. After all, who would want to give up their free “public assistance” public land grazing to grow very profitable cattle when the Las Vegas welfare line is what’s next? I’ve heard of welfare ranching, but this is the “American Rip-off Ranching Corp.” I’ll bet Walmart is involved.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:47pm PT
I just tried to check the BLM GLO website to see how much homesteaded land anyone in Nevada named Bundy owned, but their site is not working. Normally you can see a photocopy of the original title and often times the original survey plat. I wonder if the site has been hacked ??
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:52pm PT
New Nevada Lands LLC is one of the largest private land owners in NV. They own ~500,000 acres. How likely is it that the 600,000 acres Bundy has been using for decades actually belongs to him? At 640 acres per homesteader, he would have had to consolidate nearly 1000 individual homesteads. Ranchers don't do that... they use public lands for a fee.

Answer: it ain't his land... he was grazing his cattle illegally... he owes over $1 million in past grazing fees plus fines... he is a criminal willing to use violence and anti-government extremists to get what he wants.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:54pm PT
As someone who HAS ranched (I'm retired from that now!), I can assure you that Cliven Bundy wasn't getting rich on his marginal operation.

Until recently cattle prices (realized by the ranchers) were abysmally low; a yearling steer would bring the rancher ~ $850.00, and a 6 month old calf would bring $600. In order to achieve these prices for a yearling, it meant winter feeding the animal hay and dietary supplements. It takes roughly 1.5 tons of good quality hay per animal, which costs $350.00. Add in veterinary expenses, hauling, and statistical losses to mortality, maintenance of a mother cow to have the calf, cost of artificial insemination or keeping a bull, and the "profits" were either non-existent or "negative."

A yearling steer needs to be raised on pasture or grass for ~ 4-5 months before going to a feedlot for 75-90 days, depending upon the grade of beef required (Prime takes longer than choice which takes longer than what you usually get at Vons, Safeway, etc.) Figure $500-$600 for this.

This results in a 1400 pound animal at slaughter. Figure 45% of the live animal as "edible portions." Price per pound, cut and boned: $2.30. About 25% of this will result in hamburger and the rest as steaks, roasts, and other premium cuts.

Contrast all this with the price for that T-bone steak. The feeders and processors make a TON of money, as do the supermarket chains and meat markets. The rancher gets fukked.

I did the "ranching thing" for 15 years, until my wife became terminally ill and I got old. It was a good life...as long as I had a job to support my cows.

So, yeah, I have some sympathy for Mr. Bundy, but question some of his decisions that landed him in the schitt.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:55pm PT
Who said he was getting rich? He was grazing his cattle illegally. Not an entirely uncommon practice for ranchers. If you steal something and don't get rich selling it, does it mean you shouldn't be held responsible for the original crime?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 13, 2014 - 12:00am PT
He stole something? What'd he steal?
Sanskara

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 12:11am PT
Broke only reinforces what so many already know. Beef is one of the most wasteful food sources pound for pound of food and water fed vrs actually edible food rendered.

Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 13, 2014 - 12:43am PT
Lots of questions here!

I know lots of ranchers, and in a way they're a lot like climbers. To those looking in from the outside, we as climbers seem pretty strange critters. They just can't understand why we "do it." Ditto the ranchers I've known; it's a very rewarding lifestyle in it's own way. There's the romantic view of maintaining the pioneering spirit, of being close to the land. Most of the ones I know aren't THAT motivated by money, just as long as they "get by." Add to that...change in lifestyle is very difficult, especially for someone in his 60s.

A lot of the problems we have these days are media induced. Anything for a story, and the truth gets lost along the way. The media also seems to have an agenda, which I believe is improper. Then we have knee-jerk liberals, and we have knee-jerk rednecks. Resulting in a slanderfest here on Super Topo.

I tried to stay away from this thread, but it kept getting closer and closer to my lifestyle and too much uninformed BS was flying around, so I began posting. But for now, I've said my piece, and going to bed.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:02am PT
Actually beef is a great source of high quality protein, since it converts something we can't eat(grass) into something we can eat: beef. There's a lot of land out there that can be grazed and has very little other use than solar farms. My place at it's greatest was 1742 acres. I've since sold off over 1000 acres to pay my ex-wife's nursing home expenses, saving the taxpayer a bunch of money since she's not on Medicaid. I was able to run ~ 100 mother cows under normal conditions in the summer, but didn't have enough hay production to winter that many.

A few lucky tacos were able to sample my home grown hamburger at Facelift a couple years ago. They uniformly agreed that "Beef, it's what's for dinner."
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:16am PT
You are right Chaz, he didn't really steal anything... just trespassed and vandalized public property.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:19am PT
That put's him in the same boat as an illegal alien.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:26am PT
^^^^
Maybe he can get welfare and free medical aid?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 09:27am PT
http://twitter.com/WalshFreedom/status/455046687170371584

Don't worry guys. Joe Walsh is on scene so I'm sure this will all be wrapped up pretty quickly.



How nice of him to show up after the BLM had already capitulated.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 09:47am PT
Don't worry guys. Joe Walsh is on scene so I'm sure this will all be wrapped up pretty quickly.

Dude, read the comments on your link! :-)
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 13, 2014 - 09:58am PT
Devide and conquer, appeal to mythologies, prejudices and illusion.


I've seen a lot of that in Colorado too. The result is that the town where I grew up is nothing but a by pass and service outlet now for the 1% in Aspen and Vail, while the elderly have to move 200 miles away because they can't afford to live there anymore.

When I question why the rickety bridge can't be replaced with a bypass that would save the town from all the traffic and smog, or why there can't be zoning laws to prevent people building outrageously large and garish clashing buildings next to each other, or why second, third, and fourth homes can't be taxed at a higher rate so the locals don't pay for all the new facilities built for the 50 week a year empty houses, all I get is some rhetoric about individualism and free enterprise.

At least a few of the richer ranchers there have deeded their lands to the Nature Conservancy so that a few green spaces will be preserved. Their children write nostalgic books like "The Last Cowboys of the Roaring Fork Valley" which features friends and relatives of mine, while a way of life dies to rich outsiders and a beautiful valley becomes a 40 mile long subdivision. That's progress in the new West I guess.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 13, 2014 - 10:00am PT
Can someone tell me when the definition of the word "patriot" changed to "someone who doesn't want to pay taxes." ?


Since the original Bosten Tea Party maybe?
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 13, 2014 - 10:09am PT
^^^^^

+ 10000!

Maybe when the Bush Administration rammed through the highly intrusive "Patriot Act?" Violates so many of the Amendments in the Bill of Rights, that it boggles the mind. When "our" government waterboards people and suspends the Writ of Habeas Corpus? Maybe when the Obama Administration never closed Guantanamo as claimed in campaign promises? Maybe when we're still in Afghanistan because of the Opium deals?
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 13, 2014 - 10:15am PT
Well now that you mention it Bruce, I have to admit that I couldn't wait to get away from those cowboys and see the world. Only in retrospect could I appreciate them. As for self preservation, my life has always been about adventure, not financial progress. If I had been into self preservation, I would have stayed at home, gone to law school and worked for the 1%.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 13, 2014 - 10:55am PT
We're all pussies ompared to our ancestors, particularly those who founded the Old West.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 13, 2014 - 10:59am PT
Just haul the tax cheat to court. When his domestic terrorist posse show lock them up.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:01am PT
As true today as 2000 years ago in Rome; when a Senator was killed, or some other unexplained action took place, the question was "Que Bene?"
Who benefits?! The real reasons can usually be found by a simple "follow the money." Based on these recent revelations, seems that Harry Reid may have his dick in the Cuisinart?

As for the money involved, the ~ 350 cattle "impounded" (euthanized) by the BLM have an approximate market value of $560,000. That's by my calculation, based on current market prices for mature mother cows of $1,600 each. There was undoubtedly a loss of all the calves who ran off to hide, as well...figure 300 of them at todays market value of $800 each, or another $240,000. There are some high powered law firms already rubbing their hands together in anticipation of lawsuits against the BLM (in the United States Court of Claims) for this loss to the Bundys, and punitive damages as well. Not to mention possible charges of Assault and Battery against specific BLM Rangers for their tazing of Bundy's son, and pushing a 57 year old female cancer survivor to the ground.

Yeah, these cases wouldn't go anywhere in U.S. District Court, but in the Court of Claims, they will.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:03am PT
Chuff? Do you understand what "mitigation" means?

In the case of solar installations where there would be some minor, yet unavoidable impacts to tortoise (habitat mostly, rather than actual animals as projects in DT habitat will have biologists walk transects and identify active burrows prior to starting any construction), mitigation likely means relocation of animals to suitable habitat, possible enhancement of that habitat through vegetation, and possibly building tortoise fence adjacent to roadways.

What you posted there makes ZERO indication that the land in question is for placing solar farms, it indicates it would be used to offset some of the impact from placing those solar installations elsewhere. Got it! NICE!

I know this because I once planned that mitigation and walked those transects as a biological monitor for Caltrans. If you look at the bottom of the right-of-way fences along many stretches of the 15 or 40 that go through designated DT habitat, the bottom strand of the 3-wire to the ground has (or will have after the next repaving/resurfacing) 1-inch wire mesh to keep DTs out of the road.

Road kill and, somewhat surprising to most, ravens, are a couple of the primary killers.


To attempt vegetation establishment and enhancement in an area where it will be decimated by cattle clearly would not work. Relocating tortoise to new sites also won't work if there is not sufficient veg, and fences that either are incompatible with cattle being able to graze or are low enough for cattle to cross (which are then trampled by the cattle and become useless for keeping the DTs in a specific locale)

It's like you folks are stupid on purpose. NICE! Got it, RICK. May I suggest reading taking a comprehension course?
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:17am PT
Black kid in a hoody gets shot buying Skiddles, the right wing extremist celebrate. Some old white dude flaunting the law claims tyranny against the BLM, he's a hero. Wingnuts.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:17am PT
Harry Reid instigated it?

I thought it was the freeloading tax cheat.

The retards are getting started early today!

Red herring for breakfast mmmmmmm
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:23am PT
A Senator supporting a 5 BILLION dollar manufacturing facility in his state? UNHEARD OF! What the hell is he thinking attempting to boost the economy of his state!

And incentives to build there, that is unprecedented (except every damn large scale manufacturing site built in this country over the last decade where cities/counties/states bidding against each other in a race to the bottom to give away incentives...see: Any BMW, Toyota, Nissan, VW or about any other plant built in the south or midwest in the last 20 years).

Wingnuts and stupid, like pigs in sh#t.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:25am PT
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:28am PT
Wow the Chiefster really has his thong in a pinch over this one.



The personal attacks you Regressives ALWAYS resort to when the truth comes out and you can't defend your rhetoric.

Fixed it for you.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:30am PT
The Reid talking points came out yesterday

Little late to be breathlessly 'breaking' this to ST chief

See, there's a whole infrastructure for the dissemination of crap like this so you can stay ahead of the 'libtards' that threaten your very existence. What'd you do, lose the remote?
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:33am PT
Ron that was pathetic. Go back into hiding lol.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:33am PT
You Regressives should have a Mentos or a TicTac your breath smells of Koch.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:39am PT
Here they come.


The personal attacks you Libtards ALWAYS resort to when the truth comes out and your ECO FREAK agenda is exposed.


Hey Chief- Have a great day.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:44am PT
The chief hasn't had a great day since he left the womb
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:48am PT
Ooooh wet dream c#m true.
He's so manly I wonder if he has a beard and kills people like all good Americans?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:52am PT
Yeah, good luck putting a slug "2-300yds downrange" into anything smaller than the side of a barn. You gonna have a 2' drop at 200 even with a saboted slug in a rifled barrel.

Do you even know anything about firearms RICK?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:55am PT
Chief posted
The personal attacks you Libtards ALWAYS resort to when the truth comes out and your ECO FREAK agenda is exposed.

No irony here at all.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:57am PT
What, exactly, is a "secret life'?
And why would I be jealous of it?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 12:04pm PT
^^^ You are the King of Mirroring.


I have a beard and know how to kill if necessary. So do you think I should be "jealous" because I don't require an arsenal of firearms to get an erection?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 12:25pm PT
Dude you are the one always posting bearded "special ops" troops intimating they are cold blooded killers and the only true Americans.



And for the record I would rather see a solar farm than more methane dispensers.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 12:28pm PT
The MIlitia and gunhuggers always talk big about standing up to big government tyranny. Cheap talk like don't retreat re-load. Well what happened? why no fire fight? No balls for bullets? At least not the incoming ones.



The benefits of a solar farm far outweigh the cattle rancher cheating on his lease fees.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 12:32pm PT
No reason that should happen.
But long term degradation of their habitat by overgrazing will.
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Apr 13, 2014 - 12:32pm PT
Can one of you folks explain how spending $3 million on an "operation" to recover cows worth $560,000 to recoup a million bucks in back fees HELPS the US taxpayer?

Someone in the BLM should be fired for that asinine decision-making alone.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 12:34pm PT
I thought it was about compliance with the law and not about helping American tax payers.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 12:36pm PT
Tell me how a hand slap fine to big polluters helps the American tax payer.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 12:38pm PT
Once again for those suffering from reading comprehension deficit.


Apr 13, 2014 - 09:32am PT
No reason that should happen.
But long term degradation of their habitat by overgrazing will.
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Apr 13, 2014 - 12:45pm PT
"I thought it was about compliance with the law and not about helping American tax payers."

If it was about compliance with the law, and not collection of back fees - then show up with one sheriff, a warrant, and arrest him. Duh.

If it was about back fees - which is one premise that many of you have been arguing then IT IS about helping the taxpayer as public land is owned by the taxpayer, and thus his back fees are owed to "us". So recovery of those fees should not cost more than the money recovered, otherwise the ROI is negative and value is TAKEN from the Treasury, not RETURNED.

If it is about the tortoise, or solar, or some other BS, then the same premise applies - the value returned to the treasury should still exceed the cost to get it.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 12:52pm PT
Would it be OK with you if it were a Fracking operation promoted by the Kochs?

Like you give a damn about the environment.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 12:59pm PT
Simple the red neck f*#ker should be hauled into court. If he is found guilty either he pay all his back taxes or go to jail just like the any other one of us would that refused to pay his taxes.

Local to me on the east coast I know of a very successful guy a friend of a family member. Anyway this guy was mid 50's very successful owned a successful steel tubing business and just stopped paying his taxes like ten years ago. Any normal person would ask why and think he must have been having $$$ problems or something. Nope, come to find out via his father his business was thriving and money was great. I guess this guy had got caught up with some real right wing extremest anti government militia type folk and sunk real deep into the sub culture. His parents say he for real preoccupied with collecting weapons and almost a paranoia that the government was planning a take over. I guess he skydiving starred taking extended trips out west and to the kid west that seemed extremely odd.

Anyway the guy is doing like 10 years in prison. And rightfully so!

Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:02pm PT
Philo, do you have any idea what you are talking about?


Hypothetically, would tortoises fair better on the ground of a solar installation with no vegetation, or this...

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:06pm PT
If you are opposed to solar farms, make your voices heard. I oppose many of them too... at least until they retrofit urban areas with all the panels they possibly can. We can work together on that one!

But Bundy was illegally grazing his cattle on BLM land, despite numerous court orders to stop, and owes over $1 million in back fees and fines. No way in hell 600,000 acres was his before they BLM supposedly took it from him, as idiots here suggest.

First it was for the turtles, then oil, then minerals, then solar farms... blah blah blah.

The only clear fact that has persisted through this bullshit it... Bundy was illegally grazing his cattle on BLM land for a long fuking time, ignored multiple court orders, and then threatened violence when they came to get his cattle off public land. Good old Mormon rancher.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:07pm PT
The federal government will do as it will with its land. Bundy has no legal title in that land any more than I do. What am I missing?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:08pm PT

I don't give a damn about the Desert Tortoise

or any other turtle

as chief says, millions of species have gone extinct on this planet, what's another one?
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:08pm PT
I'd still love to hear how it was a good idea to spend $3 million to get $1 million...

Weschrist? Philo? Anybody?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:09pm PT
One day, you or your ancestors will wish for these guns you had tried to ban.

explain how increasing background checks to weed out felons is "banning" legal ownership

thanks
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:17pm PT
^^^^ That's why France ended up the way it is....
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:18pm PT
^^^^^ Only the ones they hadn't "euthanized" and buried on that "fragile tortoise habitat" with a backhoe. Not to mention all the motherless and terrorized calves that did/will die!

Had ONE shot been fired, there would have been a thousand outraged Americans show up in support for every militiaman there.

My biggest issue was not the Bundy standoff, but the use of raw and contemptuous paramilitary power by a previously regulatory agency, not another armed Government Gestapo group with Assault rifles and attack dogs. Virtually every Federal agency these days has armed gestapo agents, and that includes the EPA and IRS. Not sure about OSHA, but I wouldn't put it past them to want one. it's a matter of departmental "prestige," you see.

And for the rest of you participating in this "discussion/slanderfest," this makes me wonder if you really understand why ordinary Americans don't want to surrender their gun RIGHTS! Nobody wants to "go to war" with their neighbors or community. The war is sometimes brought to the doorstep.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:23pm PT
Yeah because you right wing gun loving nut case freak shows are nothing but a bunch of country style thugs. I really don't see any difference between you country red neck hicks and the minorities in our inner cities that rule with a iron fist weapons and thuggery.

Look the government is just dotting all its I's and crossing all its T's. The government will deal with this per the boundaries of the law and as they see fit. Just possibly our government did the responsible thing after you wack jobs showed up and decided to go back to the drawing board and organize a less confrontational manner of resolving this issue avoiding a blood bath of any sort. I think as a society as of late it has become clear a blood bath has to be considered a real possibility as it happens with such frequency these days.

As for us turning into Ukraine sure in think long term it is possible. Anything is!

I also feel that if this is where the world is heading the best thing that could happen is we all just f*#king kill each other and go by the way of the dinosaurs. Humans really are quite pathetic. A bunch of selfish one way thinking f*#ks with only one real priority. Personal agenda and self preservation of it. Not very impressive imop from a species that actually has the potential and capacity to do whatever it is it decided to put its mind to...
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:26pm PT
The war is sometimes brought to the doorstep.

When, exactly?

You and your beloved gun nut brethren are arming yourselves for war?

Get help.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:29pm PT
Good one. Another gem from the mental patient.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:32pm PT
Armed men are Citizens; unarmed men are Subjects. That was the issue at Lexington. That was the issue at Concord.

All you subjects, have a nice day.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:33pm PT
Fend who off?

You're insane. Much more likely a threat to yourself than to me.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:35pm PT
Who here really cares about the damn Desert Tortoise?

and the baby calves, boo hoo

all you libtards make me want to get my gun out and serve my country again, in a jungle

two can wave the flag
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:38pm PT
Yeah...! Let's take back America...! rj
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:42pm PT
You guys think this is the only instance of this happening? The problem is this is a pattern, and its getting worse... This is only one other recent example of excess:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/11/epa-facing-fire-armed-raid-alaska-mine/

Why do regulatory agencies need armed paramilitary? If someone is suspected to be dangerous we have the FBI and local sheriffs...

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:42pm PT
yeah,

I would rather eat Tofu than beef anyway
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:44pm PT
Why do regulatory agencies need armed paramilitary? If someone is suspected to be dangerous we have the FBI and local sheriffs...

because there were guys there armed with AR15s, ready to "water the tree of liberty"?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:46pm PT
can't smoke cigarettes unless you are 18

the list is endless

child seat belt laws for example, let the free market decide that one, yeah!
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:47pm PT
Tioga, them's is some funny "facts" you're spouting...

Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:58pm PT
Tioga, and others-

That's why I live where I do and the way I do. I don't have a useless and water-thirsty lawn; I do have a garden, I've had chickens, pigs, and lots of cows, several horses. The house of my nearest neighbor is ~ 1 mile away. But...unlike those who live in a subdivision or apartmenst, I know and respect all my neighbors, and am prepared to help them in any manner they need or ask.

I also had an offer to build a wind farm on my ranch several years ago, but didn't. The visual impact was not at all pleasing to me. We have a "neighborhood agreement" to keep that sort of development out of our scenic valley.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 02:17pm PT
Norton gets it.

Fluffy: I hope you take a step back once in awhile and laugh at these loons. These issues are just nutcase magnets. Fortunately, they represent a very small segment of society.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 02:23pm PT
Also hilarious: Appalachian Area News.

From their "About us" section:

Appalachia is the cultural region in the Eastern United States that stretches from the Southern Tier of New York State to Northern Alabama, Mississippi, and Georgia.

Historically the center of the first rebellions of the new American Nation, the people of Appalachia are strong willed and determined to effect modern change. Appalachian Area News is a pro-liberty aggregator of important everyday events in the region.

We maintain no religious or political affiliations and do not seek to promote any particular ideology save TRUTH, LIBERTY, AND FREEDOM!

Appalachian Area News is dedicated to the progression of knowledge and ideals through the communication of Pro-Liberty commentary on important current events in the area.

The Appalachian Mountain Region is home of the most notoriously rebellious, pro liberty individuals in the country. Contrary to popular belief, the people of Appalachia are among the most loving, kind, and tolerant people in America.

With a natural rugged individualism and healthy distrust of Government it has been in this region that the seeds of almost every popular revolutionary anti-authoritarian movement in the nations history have been sewn including the abolitionist movements against slavery before the Civil War.

To stress the point once more, WE ARE NOT REPUBLICANS OR DEMOCRATS. It is important to understand that the March Of Tyranny is made with BOTH a LEFT AND A RIGHT FOOT.

This late in the game it is hard for any rational person to imagine how any sort of party loyalism can still exist in this country for it is painfully and factually obvious to all of us that are truly paying attention that BOTH major parties in the United States are completely bought and paid for by the exact same corrupt financial elements and oligarchs that continually further the exact same totalitarian agenda.

It is more understandable and appropriate however to hold traditional liberal or conservative philosophical ideals or to be ‘anti-party establishment’ like pro ‘Tea Party’ on the Right or part of The ‘Occupy’ Movements on the Left.

Still though, even these political permutations rely on establishment moneys and particularly as in the case of the Occupy movement is very susceptible to High Level manipulations.

If Appalachian Area News had to conform in order to elaborate on any political holdings, rather than identify as political atheists we will simply distinguish as being socially liberal and fiscally conservative philosophical libertarians to avoid giving the reader any facetious faculty.

In a simpler notion however, we would like to state that THERE IS ONLY LIBERTY/FREEDOM AND THEN THERE IS EVERYTHING ELSE.

We are committed to enlightening the residents of Appalachia and every where else about the news and politics in our area that matters the MOST to our daily lives as individuals.

As government gets bigger and bigger and personal liberties and freedoms get smaller and smaller, it will be to strong no nonsense people of Appalachia that the nation must look towards to turn things around.

Sadly however, like most of the nation most Appalachian people have been scientifically and systematically dumb-downed, distracted, and indoctrinated to recognize Government as both necessary and legitimate instead of the violent entity it truly is which relies on a monopoly of force and coercion to rob and steal our children’s economic futures.

It is the MISSION of Appalachian Area News to bring the public of Appalachia and the nation news that does not express propaganda sponsored by big government or big corporations in order to further private agendas but news that furthers the agenda of LIBERTY AND FREEDOM.

We provide the important news stories of the day on our site along with our unique commentary and original articles. Also, under our media tab you can find our daily news shows.

http://appalachianareanews.com/about-us/

Yeah, that's an objective, reliable source.

LOL.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 13, 2014 - 02:42pm PT
Thanks dirtbag you're right of course

Small segment of paranoid lunatics that didn't get the love they needed growing up and probably small-dicked and impotent as well.

I feel bad for em, they seem fuc kin miserable.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 13, 2014 - 02:47pm PT
"But...unlike those who live in a subdivision or apartmenst, I know and respect all my neighbors, and am prepared to help them in any manner they need or ask."


What a bunch of crap...grew up inner city and people care for each other there too just as much if not more than you country folk.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 13, 2014 - 02:48pm PT
just a thought but

we can put a 500 pound bomb through your bedroom window within a couple hours

or have SEAL team six knocking at your door

just what good are all these threats to "defend" against the Government?

Don't tread on me. Sounds good, but its not 1776 anymore.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:00pm PT
What a bunch of crap...grew up inner city and people care for each other there too just as much if not more than you country folk.

Seriously...how difficult is it to get along with neighbors that are a mile away?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:18pm PT
Hey Chuff look at the bigger picture dipsh#t. The status quo of big oil gives us fun times like the little dribble that BP had in the gulf or the one EXXON had in Alaska. Then there is the urban air that can be cut into brown chunks. The negative environmental impact of that whole failed paradigm is infinitely greater than solar and wind farms. When there is a spill at a solar farm it's called a sunny day. Oil spills, not so much.


And by the way you are a pretty crappy shot.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:21pm PT
I thought it was about compliance with the law...
BINGO.

So wow, is it really stupid for the BLM to try to collect their rent when about $1million is due?
Why did it take so long?
How about due process? The wheels of justice grind exceedingly slowly etc.
Or do you think the BLM should have tossed Bundy in jail the first time he missed a payment?
We'll find out soon enough when Congress has an investigation.
Will heads roll? Likely there'll be a few sacrificial lambs at BLM.

And why are we not surprised that it's the Climate Deniers who are bitching about the possibility of the land being used for a solar power project?
And wow, the bleeding heart Climate Deniers are now concerned about the poor ole Desert Tortoise?
Not to worry, the socialist environmentalists and conservationists will look after him.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:24pm PT
High Traverse writes:

"And why are we not surprised that it's the Climate Deniers who are bitching about the possibility of the land being used for a solar power project?
And wow, the bleeding heart Climate Deniers are now concerned about the poor ole Desert Tortoise?"





Perhaps the Liberal Left doesn't have a monopoly on concern for the environment. Mind blowing, I know.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:27pm PT

Why do regulatory agencies need armed paramilitary? If someone is suspected to be dangerous we have the FBI and local sheriffs...



Seriously? With all the gun huggers out there defending their god given right to break laws.
One of my best friends from high school on is the Game Warden for the DOW . I've ridden with him on Poacher busts. It is part of his job that he may not come home from. Do you think he should approach these armed outlaws with roses and chocolates?


How dare he do his federal duty and impose the law on poachers.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:29pm PT
concern for the environment.
Tell me how the Climate Change Deniers show their concern for the environment.
Or did the irony go right over your head?
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:33pm PT
Groking irony requires a brain...
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:36pm PT
I'm intrigued.

I just sold an 11-87 with a 21" barrel that I used to hit 12 oz. cans @ 60m with about 50-50.
I can't seem to load Chief's photo, but hitting anything with a rifled slug at 150 yards is another story. They slow down and drop quickly.

I'd like to see what Philo, a well known gun troll, can do.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:37pm PT
Years ago I worked for the Forrest Circus on a long term environmental study of the long term impact of domestic animal grazing on public wildlands.

Long story short I'll take wind and solar farms.



"Groking Irony" LOL.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:39pm PT
"I'd like to see what Philo, a well known gun troll, can do."

Which proves what???
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:40pm PT
Science is scary and unGodly.

Here you go Chuffy can you tell which side of the fence is grazing land?
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:44pm PT
I just sold an 11-87 with a 21" barrel that I used to hit 12 oz. cans @ 60m with about 50-50.
I can't seem to load Chief's photo, but hitting anything with a rifled slug at 150 yards is another story. They slow down and drop quickly.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:46pm PT
^^^ People who think they are defending Liberty from Tyranny do.


A Cowscape.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:49pm PT
MOO.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:52pm PT
Chief, you've posted that same pair of pics 4 times. What's your point?

As for the BLM just now getting around to claiming their rent due?
The bureau revoked Bundy’s grazing rights after he stopped paying grazing fees and disregarded federal court orders to remove his animals.
Note that is plural federal court orders (at least more than one)
A federal judge in Las Vegas first ordered Bundy to remove his trespassing cattle in 1998. The bureau was implementing two federal court orders last year to remove Bundy’s cattle after making repeated efforts to resolve the matter outside court, Kornze said, adding the rancher has not paid grazing fees in 20 years.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home3/57813930-200/bundy-federal-cattle-nevada.html.csp
John M

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:54pm PT
dickheads are tiresome.. left or right
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:54pm PT
OMG the horrors Eagles can burn in the light of a solar array.
Better keep drillin' and spillin'
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:54pm PT
Welfare queens...http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/programs/public_lands/grazing/


Sucking on the tit of the government.

" The ecological costs of livestock grazing exceed that of any other western land use. In the arid Southwest, livestock grazing is the most widespread cause of species endangerment. By destroying vegetation, damaging wildlife habitats and disrupting natural processes, livestock grazing wreaks ecological havoc on riparian areas, rivers, deserts, grasslands and forests alike — causing significant harm to species and the ecosystems on which they depend.

Despite these costs, livestock grazing continues on state and federal lands throughout the arid West. Livestock grazing is promoted, protected and subsidized by federal agencies on 270 million acres of public land in the 11 western states. Federal-lands livestock grazing enjoys $100 million annually in direct subsidy; indirect subsidies may be three times that. On the Tonto National Forest in Arizona in 2004 and 2005, ranchers were subsidized under just one federal program to the tune of $3.5 million for “range improvements.”
ECOLOGICAL COSTS

Cattle destroy native vegetation, damage soils and stream banks, and contaminate waterways with fecal waste. After decades of livestock grazing, once-lush streams and riparian forests have been reduced to flat, dry wastelands; once-rich topsoil has been turned to dust, causing soil erosion, stream sedimentation and wholesale elimination of some aquatic habitats; overgrazing of fire-carrying grasses has starved some western forests of fire, making them overly dense and prone to unnaturally severe fires.

Keystone predators like the grizzly and Mexican gray wolf were driven extinct in southwestern ecosystems by “predator control” programs designed to protect the livestock industry. Adding insult to injury — and flying in the face of modern conservation science — the livestock industry remains the leading stodgy opponent to otherwise popular efforts to reintroduce species like the Mexican gray wolf in Arizona and New Mexico."
John M

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:55pm PT
dickheads are tiresome.. left or right
John M

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:57pm PT
you are a dick

no.. you are a moron

no. you are a double moron

no.. you are a dick and a moron

no.. you are
no you are
no you are
no you are
no you are
no you are



bleh..
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 04:05pm PT


Volkswagen’s New 300 MPG Car Is Not Allowed In America Because It’s Too Efficient

http://themindunleashed.org/2014/04/volkswagens-new-300-mpg-car-allowed-america-efficient.htmlBold Text**

You won’t find the 300 MPG Volkswagen XL1 in an American showroom, in fact it has even been denied a tour of America because it is too efficient for the American public to be made widely aware of, and oil profits are too high in America with the status quo in place.

No tour has been allowed for this car because the myth that 50 mpg is virtually impossible to obtain from even a stripped down econobox is too profitable to let go of, and when it comes to corporate oil profits, ignorance is bliss.




Why can't you Regressives and Obstructionists see the bigger picture or think outside the box, or in this case barrel.

Same mindset resists Green Renewable and Sustainable energy.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 04:08pm PT
Still does not answer why it took the FEDS 20 years to act as they did last week.
I agree. But what's your point?
Perhaps you think that instead of glacial speed due process he should have been tossed in jail and the Feds confiscated his cattle 15 years ago?

It's really too bad that morons like Bundy and the "militia" goons get due process like the rest of us.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 04:23pm PT
They actually didn't wait 20 years. They've been delayed because of lawsuits. And originally, they actually tried to (Gasp!) work with the guy.

. In 1997, Clark County purchased all active grazing permits in the area in accordance with the new federal Desert Tortoise Recovery Plan and the county’s own Desert Conservation Program, offering Bundy compensation for water rights and range improvements on his former allotment. Bundy rejected the offer. In 1999, the Nevada District Court permanently banned Bundy from grazing cattle in the area, ordering him to remove them or face a $200 penalty per cow per day. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the injunction. Between 2008 and 2011, the BLM cancelled Bundy’s remaining range improvement authorizations. In 2011 Bundy ignored several court orders, including a notice of impoundment. Over the next two years, the BLM aerially counted first 903, then 729, then 600, then 750 head of cattle, nearly all suspected to belong to Bundy, on land closed to grazing.


https://www.hcn.org/blogs/goat/in-nevada-delicate-20-year-standoff-with-blm-ends-in-a-tense-roundup
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 13, 2014 - 04:26pm PT
That's how The Mob does things. They make you an offer you better not refuse - or else.

I guess he wasn't ready to go out of business yet.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 13, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
It's like trying to rationalize with a colicky screaming toddler

I give up
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 04:35pm PT
Make WHAT happen? A stand off? A shoot out? A bloodbath?
Libtards were thrown to the ground and threatened with tasers for daring to wear Greenpeace T shirts to Republican political rallys during the illegal Presidency of GWShrub. Where were you gunhuggin' American patriots when it came to defending the rights of law abiding citizens against the tyranny of the State? So phuck ewe you Libertariantard "Don't Tread On Me" , "Water the Tree of Liberty" types.



Here's a question for ya Chuf.
If ancient archeological artifacts are found on Public land and it appears the find may be of great significance is it proper to temporarily restrict access to professional archeologists while the dig is occurring or should anyone be able to dig there?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 04:44pm PT


One big difference Philo, the REPUG RALLYS went on as scheduled and did not mess a beat. Libtards were arrested and controlled.

One BIG difference Chuffie is that the Libtards were NOT breaking ANY law while the Bundy Ranch has and IS.
Is the big difference for you that they were libtards and as such worthy of illegal detention and abuse.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 04:46pm PT
dirtbag

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 04:50pm PT
So this was once about the tortoise and NOT illegal grazing on the peoples land that them 400,000 acre DNE solar farm will do wonders for when they are constructed after Bundy's cattle are removed...

What solar farm?

The only sources I find for that angle come from "Appalachian News" and similar crank sources.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 04:51pm PT
the BLM packed their shet and went home returning all of Bundys cattle that they did not kill
So Chief
How many of Bundy's cattle DID the BLM kill?
I'm sure Bundy's not shy about telling the world. His claim must be out there somewhere in the blogosphere. Or perhaps on Faux News.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 13, 2014 - 04:54pm PT
Your only hope is for him to tire himself out throwing a tantrum and fall asleep

He had a big day at the gun wange it should be soon
Sanskara

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 04:55pm PT
It's exactly what the Republican Party wants. All the laws written in favor of their lifestyle In Favor of their ideals. F*#k anyone who has a different idea or philosophy on life. And dear you suggest we are the one way f*#kers we will find whatever way we can to try and flip it around so you are the one way f*#kers.

And when that don't work we will threaten you with our guns! A bunch of backward simple minded juvenile little red neck f*#king babies kicking and screaming cuz they think the are right. I wouldn't really care except you gun toting maniacs are willing to kill people to get your way.

The thing is the only ones who do not pick up on the rotten stench of sh#t of shot you emit with regard to my way or the highway is the Republican Party. The only people the back you are a bunch of other f*#ktards who sole concern in life it their bank account religious beliefs or right to bully people with deadly force
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 04:58pm PT
Cows are NOT an endangered species. I find it laughable that any regressive conservative gives a damn about baby cows unless veal is on the menu.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 05:14pm PT
They are just now counting how many cattle were euthanized and the newly born calves and their mothers that died on the range
Be sure to keep us posted. Enquiring Minds Must Know.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 05:33pm PT
Yep! Let them eat turtle soup and steak tartar.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 13, 2014 - 05:50pm PT
Senator Reid is fking thief. He is systematically scamming so much underhand shet through his position all in the name of mitgating climate change and saving the world.

and what is the name of this legislation you speak of, that Senator Reid got the Senate to pass, and had to have some Republicans help with the vote?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 06:13pm PT
DTCC euthanized over 200 of the "endagered" tortoises in captivity
Ok, so I'm uninformed on this one.
Who is the DTCC and what's your source about killing the tortoises?

So far I still can't find any mention of the Feds killing any Bundy cattle.
"Good morning America, good morning world, isn't it a beautiful day in Bunkerville?" Bundy told a cheering crowd after his cattle were released, according to the Las Vegas Review-Journal.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Apr 13, 2014 - 06:33pm PT
Bob D'A wants proof.

(on Supertopo no less)
Hey Bob didn't you read that I'm anti-grazing on public land?

fluffy, is that a picture of you? What are you even doing here?



Well Chief, got the photo loaded.

Not bad, a few flyers to the left, but you seem to have dialed in the elevation.
What is it, like a 16" drop?


Has anybody here ever been to Bunkerville?
I went through years ago, and on through St. Thomas gap, across the Grand Wash Valley, up Hidden Canyon, over Mount Trumball, and down to Toroweap on the Grand Canyon to visit the grave of a friend. Then north across the Arizona Strip and back into Utah.

Well over 200 miles of continuous dirt roads in varying repair traveling through 3 states.

Spectacular as hell! Great trip.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Apr 13, 2014 - 06:41pm PT
Isa and i did Toroweep in a compact chevy rental car:)
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 06:51pm PT
I'm trying to get caught up on this thread. Looks like liberty was assaulted by an 8x11 piece of paper and Chief saved us? And rednecks saved cows from being cooked on mirrors in the desert by Harry Reid using taxpayer money borrowed from China? Sounds like a good day for 'mericuh.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 13, 2014 - 06:57pm PT
Nothing to do about any legislation. Rather ENN and DNE, Norton.

But I now see you will dismiss any wrong doing that may come about regarding his non-senatorial business activities. ENN and DNE.

oh, knock off your judgements, I am not "dismissing" a damn thing

be specific, chief, not any vague he is related to stuff

what exactly is Harry Reid himself doing to effect "climate change"?

I just want to know, thanks, and don't twist this into some kind of personal attack thing
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 07:11pm PT
Clark County Sheriff's statement
...Sheriff Doug Gillespie said he spent all week mediating discussions involving the governor and both state and federal lawyers. Among the sheriff's concerns were unspecified threats received by nearby businesses and the safety of people at the Clark County Fair and Rodeo this weekend in Logandale, he said.
I cannot interfere with the federal government when it is operating on federal land,” Gillespie said in a statement Saturday night. “But when a group of protesters threaten civil unrest or violence in this county -- it is my job to step in and ensure the safety of citizens.”

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-blm-cattle-nevada-rancher-20140412,0,2071818.story#axzz2yoH6qSI9

Some have claimed here that the Sheriff has jurisdiction on BLM lands. Apparently Gillespie doesn't think so. Given that he had been in discussions with state and Fed lawyers he's probably right.

BLM Director Neil Kornze secured his position after U.S. Senate confirmation on Tuesday, four days into the cattle roundup.
So Sen Reid's buddy was not in on ordering the cattle confiscation nor on the planning.

(From the same article)

John M

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 07:24pm PT
when I first saw something on the internet about Reid being involved it was a blog saying he was destroying documents. That is pretty funny because it doesn't say who caught him "destroying" documents, which would mean some kind of investigation, and it doesn't say who got the documents and released them. It just produced this statement that Reid was caught destroying documents and that took off from there.

this whole thing has gotten absurd.

I feel bad for the rancher losing his way of life. But lots of people lose their way of life given enough time. How many different things have gone by the wayside. Plenty.

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 07:29pm PT
David Blackmon in Forbes Magazine. He is certainly not sympathetic to the BLM OR environmentalists.
To be fair to the regulators, Mr. Bundy’s reaction to the 1993 heavy-handed action by the BLM is not entirely defensible either. He simply quit paying his grazing fees at that time, and has refused to pay them since. After piling up for 20 years, he admits to owing the government over $300,000, while the government claims the delinquent fees in fact exceed $1 million. ( A good guess is that Bundy is not including penalties and interest in his calculation, and those things have a way of adding up over a couple of decades.) He has also refused to reduce the size of his herd in compliance with the 1993 guidance, and has continued to occupy the land in defiance of the law. While one can certainly understand his anger and frustration at his situation, the actions he has taken are really not acceptable in a civil society.
Forbes has taken this article down but of course it had already been cached.
[url="http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidblackmon/2014/04/09/using-snipers-to-protect-a-tortoise/&strip=1"]http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidblackmon/2014/04/09/using-snipers-to-protect-a-tortoise/&strip=1[/url]

more debunking here
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/04/11/the-nevada-tortoise-war-is-a-right-wing-false-f/198860
In fact, a BLM tortoise conservancy in Nevada was forced to shut down due to budget cuts. Prior to its closure, the Desert Tortoise Conservation Center had to make the difficult decision to put down the tortoises that carried disease or were too feeble to survive on their own. The others were released back into the wild.

And from another source:
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service desert tortoise recovery coordinator Roy Averill-Murray estimated last week that about 50 percent to 60 percent of the 1,400 tortoises that live at the refuge were sick. Such tortoises cannot be released into the wild because they could infect their healthy wild brethren.

Deputy Fish and Wildlife Service director Carolyn Wells said Wednesday that the 50 percent estimate of sick tortoises at the facility may be correct, but added that not all of the ailing animals will be killed. Some of them could potentially go to research facilities, she said, though she could not say how many, and she does not yet have commitments from biologists.

Fish and Wildlife operates the center in conjunction with the San Diego Zoo.
http://blog.pe.com/environment/2013/08/30/desert-tortoise-move-on-to-save-conservation-center/

Chief, thanks for putting me onto that story, I had missed it.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 08:08pm PT
Smart move by all to let the local Sheriff have the last word and take the credit.
He still has no remit on Federal property.

From the Dept of Homeland (In)Security
Put into plain English so your border agent knows what she is allowed/required to do.
Unlike a private landlord, Congress has the authority to create law enforcement organizations to patrol and to protect areas of federal property. Violations occurring within the federal land will then be handled by a federal law enforcement officer. This occurs on many of our land management areas, national parks, national refuges and forests, and BLM lands, as well as in developed areas and federal buildings protected and patrolled by many of our federal police agencies. Many of them have their own CFR regulations that are enforced within their property.
http://www.fletc.gov/training/programs/legal-division/podcasts/the-federal-system-law-enforcement-jurisdiction-and-the-courts/the-federal-system-law-enforcement-jurisdiction-and-the-courts-transcripts/territorial-jurisdiction-on-federal-property-transcrip

Or put another way, it is similar in the states.
In California ALL State/County/Regional park rangers are now deputized LEOs. For instance, right down the road from me, State Park Rangers are the law, not the county Sheriff or Highway Patrol. The State highways on two sides of the park is Highway Patrol. The county roads on the other side of the park are county Sheriff.
There is frequently mutual aid. If there's a Real Bad Person in the park, the Ranger calls the Sheriff. If there's a Highway Patrol officer closer, she responds too. But it's the Ranger who makes the decision to cite or arrest or not. If arrested, then the county Sheriff gets custody.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 08:17pm PT
And not one time has Mr. Bundy ever admitted to owing the feds a dime.
Al Capone I'm sure claimed the same thing. The courts have said otherwise in both cases.

Or have you forgotten that we are governed by laws that are interpreted by the courts?
I really don't like some recent Supreme Court decisions. Doesn't mean I get to break the law with impunity.
Do you?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 08:22pm PT
Compare yes, call them equal?
No. Bundy will not go down in history for good or evil. He'll be forgotten in 10 years.
Reductio Ad Absurdum
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 08:41pm PT
Huff and puff Chuff, you are still striking out swinging the shitcrazy bat.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 13, 2014 - 08:43pm PT
The chief...I'm guessing the Leos left to avoid an incident that would have left an angry mob on the short end of the AR-15 stick giving the neo-cons a new horse to flog in the upcoming elections..?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 08:50pm PT
If anyone cares to read the last Federal District Court decision, from July, you'll see how specious Bundy's arguments are. It's a short document and surprisingly easy reading for a court decision.
http://www.thewildlifenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Order-US-v.-Bundy-7-9-13.pdf

“the public lands in Nevada are the property of the
United States because the United States has held title to those public lands since 1848, when
Mexico ceded the land to the United States.” CV-S-98-531 at 8 (citing United States v. Gardner,
107 F.3d 1314, 1318 (9th Cir. 1997))
Well before Bundy's Mormon pioneer ancestors got there in 1877
...Bundy is incorrect in claiming that the Disclaimer Clause of the Nevada Constitution carries no legal force
that the __Property Clause of the United States Constitution applies only to federal lands
outside the borders of states__, see id. at 1320
Where the heck did Bundy get that cockamamy idea? (let me guess......wacko intertard sites)
that the United States‘ exercise of ownership
over federal lands violates the Equal Footing Doctrine, see id. at 1319; __that the United States
is basing its authority to sanction Bundy for his unauthorized use of federal lands on the
Endangered Species Act__ as opposed to trespass, see Compl. at ¶¶ 1,3, 26-39;
and that
Nevada’s “Open Range” statute excuses Bundy’s trespass. See e.g., Gardner, 107 F.3d at 1320
(under Supremacy Clause state statute in conflict with federal law requiring permit to graze
would be trumped).
It's in the Constitution. Federal Law always trumps state law. Just as any rights NOT claimed by the Fed Govt devolve to the states or the people.
The United States has submitted __Bundy’s
deposition excerpts indicating that Bundy has grazed livestock on the New Trespass Lands__
and further evidence of the trespass of Bundy’s cattle in those areas. Notwithstanding
Bundy’s contentions that the observed cattle bearing his brand may not in fact be his own,
such a denial does not controvert Nevada law regarding prima facie evidence of ownership
of branded cattle.
Bundy has produced no valid law or specific facts raising a genuine issue of fact
regarding federal ownership or management of public lands in Nevada, or that his cattle
have not trespassed on the New Trespass Lands.
Not one of Bundy's claims is valid. That's about as airtight a ruling as a Federal Court ever gives.

And for all the "militia" nut cases, Article 6 section 2 of the Constitution is clear
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the constitution or laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding.

Bundy just doesn't want the law to apply to him. Plain and simple.
John M

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 09:15pm PT
If we could remove the hyperbole, and the personal attacks, I do feel some level of empathy for this man. It appears to me that he lost his grazing rights because the desert tortoise was labeled an endangered species. I do not know if other grazing areas were offered to him. It would be interesting to know. So rather then give in, he decided to embark on a path of not paying any grazing fees and he defended this by saying it was ancestral lands and he tried to use the homestead act. He failed in his defense in court, including before a judge who is mormon and was appointed by Ronald Reagan, so it is unlikely that there was liberal bias on the part of the court.

The man was facing something very difficult and he fought. Was he right to fight? I don't know. I don't know enough about the desert tortoise to decide that. I also don't know if he was offered other lands to graze his cattle on.

I do believe that the feds were within their rights. It is federal land. Should they have done this? I don't know.

On a similar note, I also feel empathy for those who lost their businesses because of the recent recession, a recession which I believe was brought about by corrupt bankers and corrupt politicians who do not have the peoples best interest at heart.

But how many militia men went to bat for those people? And how many made fun of the Occupy movement, including the Chief, for trying to fight against large aggressive power. Are they so different? I don't think so.
Bargainhunter

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 09:17pm PT
Good info HighTraverse. I suspect Bundy will be arrested in the near future and liens will be placed against his assets to pay his overdue fines. I doubt the Supreme Court will have to get involved in this.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 09:20pm PT
No. It's settled. He's SOL. It's been litigated for 20 years. He lost. End of story.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Apr 13, 2014 - 09:21pm PT
Hell tradman, rental cars make some of the best performing off road vehicles. It is truly remarkable where you can get those things to go.

And you probably went in the short way!
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 09:24pm PT
Thanks again Chief.
This is an interesting document about Nevada's Open Range law, not written by attorneys and therefore pretty easy reading. Nevada's Open Range law covers OBLIGATIONS of grazing animal owners and their neighbors.
It ONLY applies to Open Range.
See page 1 for the salient statement.
Clark County has only one remaining BLM allotment and all open range grazing has been, in effect, eliminated.
Open Range Defined
In 1893, Nevada law “exempted owners of “livestock running at large on the ranges or commons from civil liability for trespass pursuant to NRS 568.300”
.
.
.
Open Range is defined by
Nevada Statute in NRS 568.355 as used in
NRS 568.360 and 568.370 as “all unenclosed
land outside of cities and towns upon which
cattle, sheep or other domestic animals by
custom, license, lease or permit are grazed or permitted to roam”
the Federal Courts have revoked Bundy's "lease or permit" to use Federal Land (see Supremacy Clause)
End of story.

John M
well said

and now
I'm OUTTA HERE!
John M

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 09:25pm PT
To equate the Fed Gov't to a private entity such as Wallstreet just shows how naive many are in this nation.

It would be naive to fail to understand the power and influence Wallstreet has over our government, our economy and our money supply.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 13, 2014 - 09:26pm PT
John M that was good man thanks
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 13, 2014 - 09:31pm PT
THE cattle are still grazing on federal land

bottom line: those cattle will be sold and the proceeds paid to the BLM for back fees

and no way 600 cows are worth the one million dollars he owes

he is SOL, and he brought it on himself, by refusing to pay grazing fees, how dumb?
Sanskara

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 09:33pm PT
Yup if only I could communicate in such a eloquent manner as John M apposed to abrasive and ineffective manner I mostly do. Actually most all of us could only hope for so much.

John M my hats off to you as the voice of reason logic and pride..
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 13, 2014 - 09:52pm PT
Has anyone read the court decisions, briefs? There is way too much missing information to be making judgments here.

I tend to root for individuals vs. big government, but I root against the "pry my gun from my cold dead hands" crowd that rides along the coattails of real individuals.


“Look...Reality is greater than the sum of its parts, also a damn sight holier. And the lives of such stuff as dreams are made of may be rounded with a sleep but they are not tied neatly with a red bow. Truth doesn't run on time like a commuter train, though time may run on truth. And the Scenes Gone By and the Scenes to Come flow blending together in the sea-green deep while Now spreads in circles on the surface. So don't sweat it. For focus simply move a few inches back or forward. And once more...look.”

Ken Kesey
Sometimes A Great Notion


HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 10:02pm PT
Has anyone read the court decisions, briefs?
I've read the latest court decision, July 2013.
I linked to it midway up the previous page.

I'm surprised no enterprising states rights attorney hasn't taken Bundy's case to appeals court. Perhaps there isn't one stupid enough to do it pro bono and Bundy hasn't got the scratch to hire his own?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 10:13pm PT
who in fact "eliminated" it from that county
Supremacy Clause
Article 6 Section 2 of the Constitution.
And the fact that it's been Federal land since the US acquired the land from Mexico.

So Chief, there are a lot of Tacoheads who agree with you. You could all rouse up the "militia" men and women to each pitch in a few $$ and hire an attorney on Bundy's behalf?
Or is loading up an AR15 and posing for the press more exciting?
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 13, 2014 - 10:25pm PT
They will spend the 3 million and they will lose.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 10:27pm PT
The proposal includes setting aside $3 million for legal defense.
BINGO.
And it ain't gonna win. Shurtleff is just trolling for votes. (My Father knew him at law school and didn't think much of him)
In May 2013, the media reported on a secret recording in which Mark Shurtleff was heard offering a businessman, Darl McBride, $2 million if he dropped his ongoing battle with another prominent businessman, Mark Robbins. McBride recorded the conversation and turned it over to federal agents
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Shurtleff

He didn't even do well in the Utah Supreme Court
As Attorney General, Shurtleff sided with school voucher proponents when he issued an official legal opinion stating that under a second law (HB174), private school vouchers would still be funded even if voters rejected the primary voucher bill (HB 148) in a November referendum.[5] On June 8, 2007, it took the Utah Supreme Court only hours to rule unanimously that the second law (HB 174) would also be nullified if voters reject the primary voucher bill.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 13, 2014 - 10:31pm PT
Questions:

Why 14 children?
Is the chief a native american?
Does anybody care about this outside of Fox viewers?
Why are there so many right wingnut climbers?
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 13, 2014 - 10:43pm PT
15 minutes is over. Nobody cares. Crazies showed up, traitor got his cattle. Rest of the story will take place out of Hannity's show. Court.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 10:58pm PT
The militia wackos have their poster boy for a few weeks or maybe even months.
The Feds have waited 20 years for their money, they can wait a bit longer.
When things have cooled down and the wackos have found another stooge the Treasury Dept will issue an arrest warrant. Bundy will eventually be arrested and away he goes. Just like Warren Jeffs and Al Capone.
And if any of his progeny think they'll get the land he actually owns, they'll be very disappointed. They'll only get what's left after it's sold by the Feds. Which after $1million I'm sure won't be much.

Again I ask, why hasn't an attorney taken up Bundy's case pro bono in the last 20 years? A great way to make a name for himself. One way or the other.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:00pm PT
High Trav

^That's what I was thinking, though not in as much detail.

Thanks for the link to the ruling. I'll read it. I'm wondering if anyone alse will or is it better to just let Hannity boil it down to a more palatable form.

John M

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:03pm PT
I read the link. thanks High Traverse. to me it shows that he was depending on his belief that the land isn't controlled by the feds. Seems like a poor argument.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:05pm PT
In summation...a Mormon prick who doesn't recognize the US governments authority let's his frickin herd run rampant on public land, my land, your land, and refuses to pay the $ he owes. The BLM tries to get rid of the offending beasts and wacko right wing terrorists, turning off Duck Dynasty, grab their camo's & AR's & show up prepared for war. To prevent bloodshed, the feds retreat. The wingnut extremists, aided by their friends in the extremist media, declare victory.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:12pm PT
oh, they would probably say weak sauce

and more importantly, a False Equivalency on the grandest scale

comparison wise and all.....
Sanskara

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:17pm PT
As a few have said this is far from over.

Bundy will be held accountable only the lunatic fringe could convince them self of any other out one.

Plain as day to see unless you are certifiably nuts.
mrtropy

Trad climber
Nor Cal
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:20pm PT
I guess if he can break the laws our land land I can go gut shoot a few of the cows on my our land for kicks. That scum back rancher should be shot.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:27pm PT
Craig Holman, a lobbyist for the non-partisan advocacy group Public Citizen, said the senator is dealing with "an iffy ethical landscape"
Public Citizen are not shrinking violets. They call it "iffy". Fair enough.
Just business as usual between the 1% and lawmakers all over this country. After all Corporations are people, all the Supreme Court justices appointed by Reagan and BushI say so.
It's good this is being scrutinized.

It has nothing to do with Bundy. Another red herring.
He's been in arrears for 20 years. Long before solar power was more than a wet dream for anybody except us geeks (and Jimmy Carter). If the government finally wants the cattle off the land for a solar power project, so much the better. And don't worry, us bleeding heart Climate Change Believing Environmentalists will be watching out for the Desert Tortoise.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:29pm PT
No I do to trust our government even one little bit. Never have never will.

I just trust a bunch of militant backward red necks much much less....

John M

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:50pm PT
Like them environmentalists that terminated them hundreds of tortoises that they were charged with their safe keeping.

Wonderful.

High traverse already explained why they had to be destroyed. Budget cuts and the tortoises that couldn't released back into the wild had diseases that could spread among the wild population.

You do understand these kinds of things Chief. Don't you? You supported budget cuts. So you have nothing to say about that. And you should understand having to kill animals to keep disease from spreading. Mad cow comes to mind.

So why not drop this kind of nonsense inflammatory statement and prove you are a decent and honorable man. One who doesn't cotton with spreading lies and half truths.
John M

climber
Apr 14, 2014 - 12:10am PT
They released as many of them as they could. Try to figure that part out. And the diseases partly come from some of them having been pets which the owners no longer wanted and were going to release into the wild, which could have caused problems for the wild population, so the conservancy took them in and tried to care for them, but their budget was cut.

stop making up wild theories chief. It doesn't become you.
John M

climber
Apr 14, 2014 - 12:25am PT


Here is where it says that they took them in from pet owners. These animals live a long time. many were pets before tortoises were declared an endangered species.

http://www.blm.gov/nv/st/en/fo/lvfo.html
John M

climber
Apr 14, 2014 - 12:39am PT
good night Chief. I think mostly you just want to be argumentative.

http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/tortoise/health.shtml

you can keep animals that have been pets. Its not safe to release most of them back into the wild once they have been a pet.
John M

climber
Apr 14, 2014 - 12:59am PT
seems like its the militia who are the guessers.

they want his land because their is oil under it.

gong.. no oil

its state land

gong.. nope.. federal land

its about water

gong.. not much water there

Ried is pushing this because he is involved in solar energy

gong.. this started well before solar was viable in this manner




Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:01am PT
How very interesting---or not.

Best wishes to: High Traverse for all his well-thought out posts vs

the most obsessive blogger I've ever suffered: Da Chief!

Thanks to all who have posted: on this stupidly-fun thread.


Oh! and the grazing photo that "da-chief" posted repeatedly was photoshopped. No grass on the higher elevations in that area.

Here's how it really looks.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:05am PT
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:11am PT
^^^ Yes please.


Once the construction dust settles it is pretty limited impact.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:15am PT
Tioga, I don't think it's just about Bundy either. From a sociological standpoint, it will be fascinating to see how it plays out, especially in an election year.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:18am PT
OK Da Chief:

I can handle the solar site vs the cow-sh#t.


It looks like better solar or tortoise land than cattle land.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:19am PT

And here is California's own Kern Valley Oil field.
Looks like paradise for the Chuff.


Thing is after the construction phase an oil field is still an environmental disaster but a Solar farm will allow the land and habitats to regenerate.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:24am PT
No Chuff I don't "NEED" to post anywhere. I CHOOSE to post where I will.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:27am PT
tioga-

I think that's probably what will happen in the long run. The age of the average farmer and rancher in the U.S. is currently 67, the same age as Clive Bundy.A better way of handling the situation probably would be to say his generation is the last who will receive grazing permits and let that way of life die gracefully.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:35am PT
You have some strange fixation on fecal fecundity.

Drill baby Drill. Burn all you want we'll drill for more.
The Koch Bros need to buy more politicians.



Sparse barren land is piss poor pasture for big fat cows.
Switch to Buffalo. Healthier for you and less destructive to raise.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:41am PT
What the hell does your construction pics have to do with the long term viability of solar farms.
You really are a petulant child aren't ya Chuff n Puff.
Bison can easily thrive on the sparser terrain and limited water resources of the west.
Yes they poop. Don't you remember your favorite book "Everybody Poops"? But they are more "natural" to the Western environment than the invasive cattle species ruining it now.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:46am PT
What about all the displaced cattle from this brand new mega complex that dwarfs the lights of Denver and Minneapolis / St. Paul? Great stuff that Koch Tea you drink.


Oh Chuff n Puff would you rather just Frack Off?


And for the record I have no interest in the East Side and no intent of posting on a thread that doesn't interest me. So blow yourself you limp blowhard.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:47am PT
Chief, you appear to have your solar farms mixed up.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:52am PT
NO! I would greatly prefer that western ranchers switched over to bison but Bundy is a common criminal and I would never support his cause. But I wouldn't mind killing his cows.
Any one got an AR 15 hunting rifle I could borrow?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:55am PT
Natural bison meat makes Western cattle taste like the putrid hormone pumped cancer that it is.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:57am PT
Why Asswipe? Why don't you go to the Crimea and make peace.
Wake up dude you are a dumb ass!
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:07am PT


Wow, 80 posts on this one thread..just today...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:10am PT
What do you call an Islamic cow?

A Mooslim.




What goes "OOOOOOO"

A cow with no lips.






A DEA Agent arrives at a farm and tells the farmer, "I need to inspect your property for illegal crops."

The old farmer says "Okay, but don't go in that field over there."

The DEA Agent says "Mister, I have the full authority of the Federal Government," reaching into his pocket and pulling out a badge, "See this badge? This badge means I am allowed to go wherever I wish -- on any land I want. No questions asked or answers given. Have I made myself clear? Do you understand me???"

The farmer nods politely and lets the agent go about his business while the farmer returns to his chores.

Eventually, the farm hears loud screams and sees the DEA Agent in "that field" running for his life. Close behind, the farmer's biggest and meanest bull is gaining ground on him with each step.

The farmer throws down his tools, runs to the fence and yells at the top of his lungs.... "Your badge! Show him your badge!!!"



What do you call a cow with no legs?

Ground Beef




Now play nice or I'll start posting some Gary Larson cowtoons.


philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:59am PT
How dare those tyrannical Feds impose restrictions on what crap we can pump into pigs.
To arms, to arms time to water the tree of stupidity.
stuv

climber
NL
Apr 14, 2014 - 05:55am PT
Yo, g'mornin' y'all! Is this a development or am I just behind on the story?

http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-79897809/
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Apr 14, 2014 - 09:58am PT
<http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2014/gold-butte-roundup-04-12-2014.html>;

zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 14, 2014 - 10:08am PT
So is he related to Ted Bundy or not? Depends on how you look at it, I suppose. Can I get a high-five here, dudes?

zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 14, 2014 - 10:11am PT
From 1978 through 1984 I participated in 59 actual Climber SAR Ops in the Yosemite Valley and SEKI NP. Putting my sorry selfish ass on the line so that they could be brought down safely and go home in one piece.

I did not kow that. Thanks (The) Chief!
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 14, 2014 - 10:12am PT
It is amazing that anyone is defending this dipsh#t.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 14, 2014 - 10:31am PT
Since 1994, I have participated in over 134 rebolting projects (128 of those being ASCA Sponsored) throughout the lower 48. Replacing well over 1500 bolts and anchors that most assuredly would have ended up in someones fatal demise.


Wow...congrats..we did that much in two weekends at Penitente and Shelf Rd.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 14, 2014 - 10:48am PT
Rick is persuasive? GOT IT! Nice.

An example of his stellar persuasiveness in addressing the issues:

Endangered and Threatened Wildlife and Plants: Endangered Status for the Sierra Nevada Yellow-legged Frog and the Northern Distinct Population Segment of the Mountain Yellow-legged Frog, and Threatened Status for the Yosemite Toad
Document ID: FWS-R8-ES-2012-0100-0001 Docket ID: FWS-R8-ES-2012-0100
Comment ID: FWS-R8-ES-2012-0100-0202


This is totally insane. Not are you going to cease the access of fisherman and backpackers that have a long standing heritage, but you will be shutting down several business that have been operating for decades in the area, by this action. The town of Bishop and Toms Place depend on this recreation for their summer livelihood. By imposing these actions and restrictions, you will threaten many businesses in town and that of Toms Place that depend on the access and fishing recreation in these areas. Wrong Wrong and more Wrong. You folks just do not get it. Rick Poedtke

Bishop and Tom's Place, depend on it? Wtf, RICK? I thought ya'll were all self reliant up there. Turns out yer just serfs to the angler set (when you're not suckling at Uncle Sam's, sweet sweet teat that is)
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:03am PT
Bundy was being railroaded by the stacked deck combo of corporate, political, and judicial concerns working in concert to accomplish a taking of his land, prosperity and lifestyle. Sometimes civil disobediance, be it unarmed or armed, is your right and duty as a citizen. I'm glad a small army saw likewise. Hope this can be a small start in speaking truth to corrupt power.
looking sketchy there...

Social climber
Lassitude 33
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:03am PT
Last weekend, I had the pleasure of meeting up with an old friend at Josh. Perfect weather both in the sun and shade...though I will admit, it seemed a little chilly in the late afternoon on the east side of Sports Challenge Rock, and out of the sun.. you see, we were clad in T-Shirts and pants and shorts, respectively, me in pants and Rob in shorts. Meet a couple nice you local Yucca Valley climbers who were working the Beaver and we did Clean and Jerk and we share top ropes, though I'll admit, that I'm not in the best of shape... down right piss poor if I'm being honest, which at my age, why not? After all, who cares, really about a couple washed up old dudes climbing standard fare on a Spring weekend, except to say, it is great fun and good climbing and you meet soon very nice people and have nice chat with people and catch up with your friend and just enjoy being alive and active and laughing about old and new times and people you know...imitating how friends talk and all...
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:06am PT
to accomplish a taking of his land,

What part of it's not his land, i.e. he does not own the land in question, are you having trouble understanding Sumner?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:08am PT
Bundy was being railroaded by the stacked deck combo of corporate, political, and judicial concerns working in concert to accomplish a taking of his land,

His land? WTF? the issue is 20 years of illegal range use of Federally managed "Public Lands".

It is NOT HIS LAND
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:14am PT
If you have a perpetual grazing easement you have land (rights). El Cap. It takes so much range in NV to raise cattle that if his easement was taken his cattle operation would have been downsized to the point of being uneconomic.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:15am PT
Personal Responsibility is only for Libtards.

Real MEN and TeaBaggers don't need personal responsibility they have guns and a mob law mentality.
For the next confrontation I would love to see a couple of Black Hawk gunships filled with bearded manly men in battle fatigues land in the middle of the whack nut vigilante mob who step out guns loaded to water the tree of personal responsibility and say "Any takers?"
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:22am PT
You are a low grade moron Bruce. I assume you would show up to a gunfight armed only with your acidic tongue, eh?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:22am PT
Philo...I think that would be cool , only they should be wearing camo-thongs...
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:26am PT
And by the way The Chuff I said post up a TR which stands for Trip Report not a chest thumping self aggrandizing resume'.
You "single handedly" have proven you can shoot your gun and your mouth off but you are either shooting blanks or scoring Maggie's Drawers.

This guy thinks he lives in a sovereign country called the State of Nevada and doesn't acknowledge the US government.
Does he think the Nevada Militia won WWII while Unkle Sam was busy trying to round up everyones guns and cows.
He is more full of fertilizer than his pathetic heard of methane dispensers.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:26am PT
When you show up to a debate armed with machine guns

I would feel so much safer just knowing that Bruce Kay will be there to point out "its not fair"
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:29am PT
The NPS does charge to climb in some parks: 45/head to climb Rainier, and 360/head to climb Denali, for example.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:33am PT
I defend them the same way I fought the USFS for over two years on my own to get the 36 year Williamson/Baxter year round Closure, opened for all to access year round with no restrictions other than having to get the proverbial WP.

I did not know that. Thanks again [The] Chief!!
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:34am PT
It takes so much range in NV to raise cattle that if his easement was taken his cattle operation would have been downsized to the point of being uneconomic.

So Sumner, what you're telling me is that this guy is DEPENDENT on the Govt. This rugged individualist is dumb enough to try to raise cattle on land so marginal that he has to rely on the good graces of Uncle Sugar. Left to raise them on his own land, he would go under. What happened to self sufficient you Johnny Galts love to crow about? This guy is just another "taker", one of Romney's famous 47%.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:34am PT
Let's try this on for size. Does anybody here defend Ted Bundy? Maybe we can get a baseline.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:36am PT



When you show up to a debate armed with machine guns

Fine, I'll see your machine gun and raise you a...

and a


Good luck with that "Zero Sum" game.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Apr 14, 2014 - 12:07pm PT
There is a war on the range throughout the west. The small time ranchers are being systematically removed from there land by corrupt enviro NGO's and corporate interests, assisted by Pols ( who all seem to get rich despite a middle income salary) and ideological judges appointed by the same tainted pols. They have weight of the treasury behind them, therefore fighting the system in the stacked deck of the judiciary has vanishingly small odds. If you took the time to actually study what is happening out on the range you would find the ranchers are by and large good stewards of the land and the ecosystem fairs better from their presence.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Apr 14, 2014 - 12:09pm PT
At least they weren't illegally camping. Bullets would have been flying in that case.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 14, 2014 - 12:17pm PT
From 1978 through 1984 I participated in 59 actual Climber SAR Ops in the Yosemite Valley and SEKI NP. Putting my sorry selfish ass on the line so that they could be brought down safely and go home in one piece.

I don't remember there being anywhere close to that many climber or otherwise heli-rescues during that period. At least from 1981 to 1984, when I was there for a season. That would be an average of 8 or so heli rescues per year.

So you can replace bolts. Have you ever climbed El Cap?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 14, 2014 - 12:39pm PT
I'm sure glad to see ReasoningRon back in the groove!!!!
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:09pm PT
Chief wrote: You Bobda are the real hero here... I want your picture to hang up in the shetter up at our community gun range.


You are a sick little f*#k.

Big f*#king deal...you were in the navy, you got fed, paid and retired from it. To f*#king dumb to do anything else.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:22pm PT
Again with the fecal fantasies. Chuffeur you are fixated.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:28pm PT
Oh base.... Read the post ...

Oh, I read the post. You said,

From 1978 through 1984 I participated in 59 actual Climber SAR Ops in the Yosemite Valley and SEKI NP. Putting my sorry selfish ass on the line so that they could be brought down safely and go home in one piece.

59 CLiMBER SAR ops?

Sorry Queef, your regular boasting, whether it is 30 trout per day or your 200 yard 12 gauge group just reminds me of a certain personality type that I have encountered now and then throughout my life.



HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:29pm PT
Some good will come from the "armed response" by Bundy's supporters.
Many of them now have their guns, faces, rigs etc photographed for posterity.
A good bet is some of them are, or will be, violent offenders.

Next time theres a shooting at an Army base, Mosque or a Jewish retirement community in their area the LEOs will quietly check them out. Like the neo-Nazi they just picked up for yesterday's murders in Kansas.
The Law has a very long memory.

Bundy is a common criminal, a trespasser and a thief. He has had his days in court, several times. He cannot be excused just because his "beliefs" differ from the law. Or because by rousing up the armed anti-establishment rabble he has become convinced he is in the right.
I ask for the last time: where is the licensed attorney who is taking his case pro bono? Or on any other terms. He's certainly not showing his face in the media.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:31pm PT
In electricity positive poles attracts to negative poles.

Maybe you guys are working against the laws of nature?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:32pm PT
That's magnetism numbnut.


With electricity if you touch a positive wire to a negative wire it goes sparky spark spark.
Unless you can put the opposite polarities to some use like turning on a light to see with it's just sparks.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:39pm PT
philo, you're assuming that nimbnuts knows that Cats have a positive ground.
Heard about a guy last week who learned that the hard way when he went to jump start it.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:44pm PT
Only slightly off topic and not to pretend any equivalence with Bundy's crowd (just likely similitude)

Who was wearing this shirt when arrested?
was wearing a T-shirt at that time with a picture of Abraham Lincoln and the motto: sic semper tyrannis ('Thus always to tyrants'), the state motto of Virginia and also the words shouted by John Wilkes Booth after he shot Lincoln.[51] On the back, it had a tree with a picture of three blood droplets and the Thomas Jefferson quote, "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."[52] Three days later, while still in jail, ... was identified as the subject of the nationwide manhunt.

and wrote to a friend:
Those who betray or subvert the Constitution are guilty of sedition and/or treason, are domestic enemies and should and will be punished accordingly.

and to another friend:
I have sworn to uphold and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic and I will. And I will because not only did I swear to, but I believe in what it stands for in every bit of my heart, soul and being. I know in my heart that I am right in my struggle, Steve. I have come to peace with myself, my God and my cause. Blood will flow in the streets, Steve. Good vs. Evil. Free Men vs. Socialist Wannabe Slaves. Pray it is not your blood, my friend.

and then acted:
...felt the need to personally reconnoiter sites of rumored conspiracies. He visited Area 51 in order to defy government restrictions on photography and went to Gulfport, Mississippi to determine the veracity of rumors about United Nations operations. These turned out to be false; the Russian vehicles on the site were being configured for use in U.N.-sponsored humanitarian aid efforts. Around this time, ... and ... also began making bulk purchases of ammonium nitrate, an agricultural fertilizer, for resale to survivalists, since rumors were circulating that the government was preparing to ban it.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:47pm PT
Jus like in ur car or house, and here on ST. When you have an excess of positive electrons they are diverted to the common ground bar. Thus consumed by negativity. Jus like here on ST.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:48pm PT
Mr . Bundy is going to have a very difficult time selling his cows, acquiring new cows, or maintaining a bank account with > $.04. There are other ways to get the cows without getting the cows.

The idiot has lost; he's finished.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:50pm PT
Mr. BASE... King of the Hypocrites here on the Taco

So you admit that you lied when you said "Climber" SAR ops?

If you are anything like your online persona, you are a pitiful human being.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:57pm PT
I just got off the Skype interview with a journalist from Scientific American who is researching an article on lightning strike survivors for OUTSIDE magazine. He asked what went through my mind at the time I was struck. I said "About a half a million volts".
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:01pm PT
A friend , driving at night, ran into a range locust ( cow ) out in area 51 and killed the poor thing...Besides totaling his economy car , he had to pay the rancher something like $400 to replace the dead cow... You'd think this was India..?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:22pm PT
Yeah this rancher is a true Amerikan Patriot. Just like Phil Robertson, Ted Nuggent and George Zimmerman.

Your role models are PHucked RongO.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:28pm PT
Hmmmm.....no takers yet on my quiz
he/she also said, ex post facto:
If there is a hell, then I'll be in good company with a lot of fighter pilots who also had to bomb innocents to win the war.

final clue, was incarcerated in:
the same cell block as Ted Kaczynski, Luis Felipe and Ramzi Yousef. Ramzi made frequent, unsuccessful attempts to convert ... to Islam
Birds of a feather.
Except which one's fate was different from the other 3?
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:32pm PT
From 1978 through 1984 I participated in 59 actual Climber SAR Ops in the Yosemite Valley and SEKI NP. Putting my sorry selfish ass on the line so that they could be brought down safely and go home in one piece

I did not know that and apparently neither does anyone else. [The] Chief, I think you're going to need to post up the details in order to convince the hodads on the ST. Let me give Herr Braun a buzz, I believe he was in town for a few weekends during that period.



BZZZZZZZZZZZz ... Herr Braun dere? .............


philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:33pm PT
I say shoot this f*#ker's cows haul them to the slaughter house and give the meat to local homeless shelters. Send this Anti-American outlaw packin'. And give the pussies in the vigilante mob a super sized can of whup ass.

Oh and send the bill for the op to Sheldon Adelson.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:36pm PT
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:38pm PT
Better yet send the wanna be militiamen to see some real action.
I am sure the sight of Ted Nuggent, Phil Robertson and Rancher Bundy would fill the Russian army with dread.



Oh I'm sorry what caliber did you say your surrogate penis was?
Well stick it in here and see how it measures up.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:41pm PT
C Bundy=Welfare Queen.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:45pm PT
High...was his first name Timothy?. :-)
Sanskara

climber
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:46pm PT
If you carry a f*#king gun period concealed or unconcealed wherever you go you got problems. If you carry one unconcealed you are a freak show lunatic and need to have yourself committed!

Thank you Philo..
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:49pm PT
Makers, Takers and Fakers at Bundy Ranch.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/04/13/1291730/-Makers-takers-and-fakers-at-Nevada-s-Bundy-Ranch

If nothing else, the tense standoff at the Bundy ranch in Nevada provided a helpful reminder of what it means to be a patriot in America. There are many things one may do and a small handful of things one must do to be considered a true patriot. Real patriots vote. They vaccinate their kids. Real patriots pay their taxes. And genuine patriots don't threaten government officials with violence over laws with which they disagree. Especially when they use lofty rhetoric about "sovereignty" and "liberty" and "tyranny" as a cynical façade for illegally padding one's own bank account.

Which is why Cliven Bundy and his supporters, along with much of the media covering the confrontation northeast of Las Vegas, are misrepresenting what ABC News dubbed "the Range War." The Christian Science Monitor, for example, turned a case of freeloading into a crusade for freedom:

In the sparse Nevada rangeland this weekend, US western history came alive with a fight over cattle that threatened to turn violent.
In the end, federal land managers backed down, giving rancher Cliven Bundy his 400 head of cattle. The cows, which had been rounded up on public land where Mr. Bundy's herd had grazed for years, represented a classic clash of values: Old West traditions and practices versus New West environmental sensibilities.

Please read below the fold for more on this story.
But the land where Bundy grazes his cattle, like most of the state of Nevada, doesn't belong to him but to the American people, all 315 million of us. He owes our government $1 million for his decades of unpaid use of those lands. He has repeatedly and rightly lost in court for a long list of reasons, including the inconvenient truth that the federal government owned the territory before Nevada became a state. And along with the abolition of slavery, the illegitimacy of secession myriad other issues decisively settled by the Civil War is this: states only have residents and only the United States of America has citizens. So, Cliven Bundy is utterly and dangerously wrong when he claims he is "a citizen of Nevada and not a citizen of the territory of the United States," or as he triumphantly did this weekend:

"There is no deal here. The citizens of America and Clark County went and took their cattle. There was no negotiations. They took these cattle."
Imagine for a moment that low-income minority residents illegally set up a community vegetable garden on a parcel of land in San Francisco's federally owned Presidio. Or contemplate Mexican migrant workers running a small farmer's market on land belonging to Camp Lejeune in North Carolina. The same militia members now armed to the teeth in Nevada and their right-wing fellow travelers would doubtlessly denounce the "takers" and volunteer to eject the scofflaws by force.
Instead, the friends of the freeloaders in Nevada declare Bundy's scam to shortchange Uncle Sam is "not about cows, it's about freedom."

To put it in words cattleman Cliven Bundy would understand, that's bullsh#t. And it most certainly is not patriotism.


There are many things one may do and a small handful of things one must do to be considered a true patriot. Real patriots vote. They vaccinate their kids. Real patriots pay their taxes. And genuine patriots don't threaten government officials with violence over laws with which they disagree.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:54pm PT
Is prostitution still legal in Nevada? Sounds like it may be Mr. Bundy's turn in the barrel.

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:56pm PT
Bob D'A
Bingo
For the Grand Prize, how was Timothy different from his equally infamous block mates?

ahh yes, the Daily Kos. Always good reading

Is prostitution still legal in Nevada?
Not in Clark County.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:57pm PT
Aww I feel bad for chief

Caught in a lie, now has to abandon his favorite thread
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:58pm PT
If you carry a **f*#king guy** period concealed or unconcealed wherever you go you got problems. If you carry one unconcealed you are a freak show lunatic and need to have yourself committed!

If you carry one of those you got bigger problems than how you are going to conceal him.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 14, 2014 - 03:00pm PT
philo
diff'rnt strokes fer' diff'rnt folks, doncha know?

Wade has the most succinct and ironic summary.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 14, 2014 - 03:03pm PT
Philo,

Anyone except for a very very far reaching right wing freak show wing nuts interpret this situation as the article above that you posted portrays it.

I have talked face to face with an equal amount of democrats and republics whom have taken the time to educate them self on both sides of this argument. The unanimous opinion is that Mr. Bundy and all those that organized in his defense are a bunch of freak show extremest wack jobs and if anything are reflecting poorly upon a Republican Party whom image even most every republic will admit is in need of a despite overhaul if it is ever appeal to the general public again enough to win a presidential election.

Beyond that the opinion on both sides is those people are a menace to society and should be locked up. Republican or democrat throw away the key!
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 14, 2014 - 03:04pm PT
Let's see the rescue logs. Also, need to see pics of the bolts and anchors you replaced.

Let the people count for themselves.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 14, 2014 - 03:05pm PT
Thanks for working on SAR Chief. Good stuff. But I still don't see why Bundy is getting support on this.

?





















philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 03:06pm PT
Sanskara you do realize I was having fun with your typo don't you?
Sanskara

climber
Apr 14, 2014 - 03:06pm PT
Bob hits it outa the park!

I think we have all been thinking the same thing..
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 03:10pm PT
Wow Chuffer so defensive. Hit a nerve or something?

Oh well Posers gotta pose.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 14, 2014 - 03:12pm PT
I'm fairly certain these "militias" (their word) don't call themselves Republicans. They are likely on the right fringe of the tea baggers.
The sad fact is these pathetic morons somehow think they are aggrieved parties and have the right to confront the Law.
Let's ask them how they feel about the Black Panthers who were in fact aggrieved parties, armed themselves and some of whom were gunned down by the police. It's doubtful these wackos even know their US history.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 14, 2014 - 03:17pm PT
pretty sure they vote Republican though.....

being confused as to who is the "taker" and stuff like that
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 03:19pm PT
Why should they bother to learn the history of a Country they don't believe in?
A nation they think has no right to exist.
History is for pussy libtards who don't know how to shoot first and ask questions later.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 14, 2014 - 03:20pm PT
High wrote: Let's ask them how they feel about the Black Panthers who were in fact aggrieved parties, armed themselves and some of whom were gunned down by the police. It's doubtful these wackos even know their US history.


Well the Black Panthers are...Black and the Brown Berets are...Brown. They don't belong here.

These are good old white boys playing militia...it's all good.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 14, 2014 - 03:25pm PT
What a fuking pathetic display of ignorance this whole right-wing tard fest became. Makes me sad that the (somewhat) intelligent hicks I know will be lumped in with these idiots.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 14, 2014 - 03:55pm PT
Phil

Yes I know you are just f*#king with me..

Still I fixed it...
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 14, 2014 - 04:01pm PT
Chief wrote: But then what do you expect from sheep that want the Gov't to save them from themselves.

So funny.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 14, 2014 - 04:03pm PT
For the most part I think the government is a giant POS. And I don't expect them to save me from anything.

I just think right wing militia types are ten times worse.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 14, 2014 - 04:17pm PT
Blue, Ron and Cheif no better than this and cant see that they are the same dam thing...


Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 14, 2014 - 04:21pm PT
Chief wrote: You're batting 1000.


With a fluff-boy like you pitching, really not that hard.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 14, 2014 - 04:24pm PT
this is a great thread
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 14, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
I thought chief was a catcher...?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 04:35pm PT
Bob's batting 1000 and Huff n Puff Chuff keeps shooting Maggie's Drawers.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 14, 2014 - 04:42pm PT
Blanks he's shooting blanks..

I life spent shooting blanks it all makes sense now...
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 14, 2014 - 05:07pm PT
"Couchmaster: Not defending the man Bundy.

Rather the operation that is being conducted at Bundy for reasons that so many here are too fking blind to see and accept as real."

I'm with that Chief. I remember when the BLM didn't have a police arm, let alone the massive military style police force they seem to have now. They still don't need one, but every little bureaucrat wants their own police force these days, and they (sadly) get it. Your tax dollars at work. I don't see it is reason to support someone who is breaking the law. Why should Bundy be able to undercut honest hard working ranchers who are paying for range? I feel like I must be missing something here.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 14, 2014 - 05:29pm PT
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 14, 2014 - 05:32pm PT

I remember a time when men served their country, came home, and shut up about it.

I admire them a lot more than the look at me, read about me, see me, wave the flaggers.
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Apr 14, 2014 - 05:42pm PT
That cop spraying those kids actually received disability payments for pain & suffering resulting from that event.

Don't have time to find the link, we're headed to Glacier NP to watch the Blood Moon tonight. (stay away clouds)

Have fun arguing everyone.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 14, 2014 - 05:53pm PT
Militarization of "your" local P.D! Note the ex-military "Fritz" helmet on the cop with the spray.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 14, 2014 - 06:02pm PT
Brokedown, you're a rancher. Why should Bundy get to graze for free and undercut your price? If all will be revealed later - as Chief says, why are other ranchers supporting it now?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 14, 2014 - 06:28pm PT
Such brave patriots, hiding behind the skirts of their women:

The Blaze, the conservative news site affiliated with Glenn Beck, flagged the comments made Monday by Richard Mack, identified as a former Arizona sheriff who had joined more than 1,000 other protesters alongside Cliven Bundy, who has been feuding with BLM over his use of federal land to graze his cattle.

We were actually strategizing to put all the women up at the front,” Mack said in a Fox News clip pulled by The Blaze. “If they are going to start shooting, it’s going to be women that are going to be televised all across the world getting shot by these rogue federal officers.”

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 14, 2014 - 06:37pm PT
I don't think it's so much this particular cow situation but the overall sense, to the conscious, that our Federal regime is completely out of control. IMO they are absolutely begging someone to start shooting. They are trying so hard to start WWIII overseas on multiple fronts. Perhaps they want to kick off a little internal rebellion.

They're broke. Flat out broke with astronomical debt. MOAR WAR. The only way to provide cover and blame for the economic situation.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 14, 2014 - 06:46pm PT
Couch-

That's a complex question for someone in ranching, especially for one who doesn't have a very good opinion of the BLM in the first place. But in the spirit of informing everyone here, especially those who think they know it all but don't.

I'll preface my comments with the statement that none of us here have all the facts, in spite of those who have formed their opinions based on the MSM news thinking otherwise.

The land in question was at one time "open range," which means anyone could use it who could "make Beneficial use thereof." There is also the issue of water rights out there, and water rights accrue to the first appropriator, again "make beneficial use thereof." View these rights similar to mining claims. The miners back in the Comstock Lode era could go out on public lands and stake mining claims for various minerals and take title in perpetuity by making certain improvements and working the claim for some set number of years. In those days this land was WORTHLESS, and only with the advent of the BLM have "grazing fees" been imposed. I suspect Mr. Bundy believes he has a claim to the grazing "in perpetuity" because his ancestors established their claim thereto.

These comments aside, any grazing fees levied on this sort of grazing land would be disproportionately high for value received. If Bundy wants to ranch this sort of schitty land for free, I have no objections whatsoever.

What set me on edge over tis whole issue is the heavy handed approach of the BLM, coming out with the excessive show of force, and bringing out the big bus size paddy wagon to deal with protestors. That was not only bad PR, but really pissed off the locals as well.

I really don't care what anyone else her thinks about Mr. Bundy and his actions. If the grazing land had NOT been converted into a Desert Tortoise Preserve, and his usage subsequently restricted, this never would have occurred. The facts just now coming to light about the Solar Green energy development is the REASON, even though Tortoises and Grazing Fees are simply the EXCUSE for this whole exercise in futility.

So...the BLM spends in excess of a million taxpayer dollars to collect and REMOVE THE CATTLE which were interfering with Rory Reid's deal with the Chinese. The manner in which this occurred is disgusting to me...a military veteran who is appalled by the action of "our" government.

So, to answer your question, Couch: no it doesn't bother me a bit for him to get "free" grazing on utterly worthless (other than to the Chinese) land. I personally wouldn't pay a dollar a year per head for what he's doing. That means I wouldn't pay $900 in order to graze 900 open range cows on that sort of pasture. If they think it's worth Millions, they're fulla' schittt.

Official "end of rant." Now let the mud slinging begin!
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 14, 2014 - 06:51pm PT
Nice picture Chief...bunch of old fat white guys with fat old white women on Harleys. The freaking guy in the front has about eight chins.


Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 14, 2014 - 06:59pm PT
Chief wrote: And Five Bronze Stars.


Really...like you know him??


Maybe medals for winning a hot dog eating contest.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 14, 2014 - 07:05pm PT
I think the hot dog trophy is a belt

which is kind of ironic, should be a sweatpants string
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 14, 2014 - 07:05pm PT
ATB-

This isn't, and never has been about Desert Tortoises. Read some of the above information, where tortoises are being euthanized because there are too many of them and some are "sick." What a bunch of horse crap. Yes, I love turtles, but tortoises even more. The ranchers kill off the natural predators (coyotes and ravens) and the population of tortoises increase. I'm all for tortoises.

My previous interaction with the BLM was also in regard to an "endangered species." The Preble's Jumping Mouse. It was listed by "Biodiversity" as endangered, and without much hoo haw, it was approved for protection under the ESA. My ranch, as well as some mountain land we owned was identified by the USF & WS as prime habitat for this little mouse. After 3 years of looking, not a single Preble's Jumping Mouse was ever found in the State of Wyoming. During that time there were severe restriction on burning weeds in irrigation ditches and plowing fields too close to said ditches. The Boys at the BLM were supposed to be the "enforcers" even on deeded private lands. My ENTIRE RANCH is deeded acreage and no leased or government lands were ever involved. But I was subjected to scrutiny anyway. So my attitude to the BLM: Fukkem!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 07:19pm PT




**
On Kilter: Bundy won, America lost**



OPINION – Mark Twain famously said, “Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government when it deserves it.” Until today I had always been one to lean on the improbability that the government ever really deserves it. But when the government chose to back down to avert the bloodshed of innocent life, while Cliven Bundy shamelessly put innocent life in harms way for his own agenda, I knew to whom loyalty belonged.

As Clark County Sheriff Doug Gillespie announced the stand-down of the Bureau of Land Management’s round up of Bundy’s cattle from federal land, there was reported to be a collective sigh of relief. It was over.

The round up, which began last week, which was adjudicated by federal court order and was being carried out by the BLM as well as adjoining agencies and civilian contractors, drew supporters for Bundy ranging from sympathetic ranchers and citizens to armed militias who mingled throughout out the crowds in the area.

The spirit of de-escalation was however short lived
The spirit of de-escalation was however short lived.

Cliven Bundy came forth after Gillespie, spoke and betrayed the terms of the stand-down announcing a series of demands that included but are not limited to the disarming of federal agents, and the removal of gates to national parks. This is consistent with the statements made last Wednesday by his son Ryan Bundy on the Perspectives Show with Bryan Hyde and Kate Dalley.

Later, Bundy gave the order to the militia which led to a tense standoff in a wash with dozens of Las Vegas Metro Police. The militia took their stand surrounded by women and children also in protest and demanded that the cattle be released.

Deputy Chief Tom Roberts, of Las Vegas Metro, then made an agreement with Bundy’s son Ammon, to release the cattle held there within 30 minutes if the crowd agreed to disperse.

There was nothing peaceful about it
Advocates for Bundy are hailing this a victory for not only Bundy, but for America as a whole and inferring that this is in fact a demonstration of the power of peaceful rebellion. Of civil disobedience. Despite that, there was nothing peaceful about it.
In actuality, this has perhaps done something quite different.

This event has changed the collective definition of the meaning of civil disobedience in America for the worst
The stand-down gave a symbolic victory for radical anti-government militia groups, but more importantly, this event has changed the collective definition of the meaning of civil disobedience in America for the worst.

In an article in The Southwest Journal, a compelling case for the distinctions between criminal behavior for selfish gain and civil disobedience for the greater good of people is made.

The main thrust of such distinctions is that a true act of civil disobedience is marked by an emphasis by the disobedient acquiescing to the knowledge that they are breaking the law and accept the penalty for it in the interest of the common good.

Bundy does not think he has done a single thing wrong and furthermore, revealed his true character in the matter when in lieu of not getting his innocuous demands for a version of government take down and overthrow, he simply demanded people take back his cattle. Perhaps his sole motive all along despite alluding to some fashion of patriotism.

But beyond such distinctions another compelling case can be made for the media’s role in ratcheting up the fanaticism that ultimately was the cause of the breakdown of the agreement made between the BLM and Bundy as well as the decision to cease the roundup.

He appealed to the nature of mob rule and incited potential violence – even when peace had been brokered
Furthermore, Bundy himself is responsible for doing less for the cause of putting into check a presumed-overbearing federal government. Instead, he appealed to the nature of mob rule and incited potential violence – even when peace had been brokered.

In a 1968 article by Delbert D. Smith, the case for the deterioration of meaningful and effective civil disobedience as well as the media and general public’s culpability thereof, some 35 years later, still holds an almost prophetic weight. Smith writes:

One difficulty that the courts face with cases of civil disobedience is that the techniques are constantly changing because of the necessity of attracting public attention and notice. The ‘news’ content of the event and its adaptability to television or magazine coverage have become important criteria for determining the nature of civilly disobedient acts. It can be argued that the most undesirable forms of civil disobedience have developed as a result of the irresponsibility of our mass media.” However, the alternative course of action, which would be to prescribe some form of news management, seems equally undesirable. News suppression would not be viable in any event since the news media are able to ‘color’ an event simply by their use, non-use or placement of a particular article.

While it is possible to assert that the mass media manufacture pseudo-events by over-dramatizing incidents involving civil disobedience, and it may be that some racial problems have been accentuated because of uncritical and ‘sensational’ news coverage, it is also true that the frustration of nonviolent demonstrations by denying them press coverage may have the effect of precipitating violent demonstrations. The emotional effect of the newspaper, since it reports events that have occurred in the past in a formal manner that people have come to expect, is minimal compared to live television coverage which many times searches for the most dramatic (and possibly most unrepresentative) incidents that make for interesting visual imagery at the expense of balanced coverage. If obtaining publicity is one of the major inducements to acts of civil disobedience, and violent demonstrations receive more coverage than nonviolent ones, it is probable that the frequency of the latter form of demonstration will increase.

Further, the easy designation of every protest movement as an act of nonviolent civil disobedience by the mass media without any concern for particular factors such as the public nature of the act, its illegality, or its conscientious nature may lead to the creation of a false public impression of the permissible limits of civil disobedience and one that is at variance with that found in the courts. The community standards that result may create difficulties in law enforcement that would not result if these standards accurately reflected a more sophisticated concept of what constituted civil disobedience.

As each act of so-called civil disobedience witnessed on the mass media is struck down by the courts, people will begin to lose faith in the legitimacy of civil disobedience as a socially tolerable form of protest.

The Bundy Range War was perpetuated by an irresponsible media vying for nothing more than ratings
The Bundy Range War was perpetuated by an irresponsible media vying for nothing more than ratings and an ill-informed and willfully ignorant public who, much like a NASCAR fan, come to the race simply in hopes of seeing a crash.

The militia groups, at least some, may have had noble intentions of some sort in the spirit of constitutionally- laden principles, but ultimately appeared to be the disgruntled and disenfranchised fanatical fringe element looking not for a cause to fight for, but a fight to support and glorify their cause.

The Bundy plea for support in a situation where he had clearly no arguable case in law, was a perfect storm of sorts.

The BLM and adjoining agencies in this situation are to commended for their prudence and immense restraint
The BLM and adjoining agencies in this situation are to commended for their prudence and immense restraint shown in the face of outright lawlessness masked as patriotism.

At the standoff in the wash, the true colors of these people was shown when they used for strategical advantage, the presence of women and children while threatening an armed response to the law.

Cliven Bundy, likely a victim to nothing short of his own pride, is no hero
Cliven Bundy, likely a victim to nothing short of his own pride, is no hero. He is certainly no patriot. He used pseudo-American sentiment to quite successfully create an event in history that perhaps once and for all will change how American ranchers in the west are perceived.

The stand-down was necessary to prevent bloodshed, but it must be recognized that if Bundy and a multitude of his supporters, militia friends, and even family members who broke the law, are allowed to go unpunished, anarchy will follow. Other groups, emboldened by the appearance of forcing a stand-down, will only continue to gain momentum. And furthermore, law enforcement as a whole will be rendered impotent as average people with disputes with current laws begin to wonder if they too can call a militia in to force the police to leave them alone.

And as if to embolden the assertion of the fact, a case in Texas is surfacing that while the facts are just becoming revealed, cannot allow for a repeat of the war Bundy started here.

In the case of Bundy and the Gold Butte designations, the government did it right
In the case of Bundy and the Gold Butte designations, the government did it right. They continued to do it right in the face of the lawless behavior of a rancher and his militia henchmen. They earned and deserve our loyalty.

For those who were closest to this event, who were there, who witnessed it first hand, and for everyone afar who will be affected by it, it is of the utmost importance that you speak up in defiance to allowing this stand-down to be the end of this battle. Equal rights under law were attacked, and ultimately defamed by this rancher. We cannot let that stand.

See you out there.



Dallas Hyland is an opinion columnist. The opinions stated in this article are his and not representative of St. George News.

Related posts

Range War: BLM withdraws, cattle released after standoff
Range war: BLM, protesters clash, rancher’s son hit with stun gun
Congressmen urge BLM to keep seized cattle out of Utah
Range war: Rancher’s son arrested by BLM, later released; transport of impound cattle put on hold
Letter to the Editor: The spirit of the West; range war
Letter to the Editor: Bundy forfeited right to graze cattle; counter opinion, range war
Range war: BLM, Iron County to work together on feral horse issue – Iron County
Range war: County resolves to solve wild horse problem if BLM prioritizes Bundy cattle – Iron County
Range war: County Commissioners oppose BLM bringing Bundy cattle to Utah – Washington County
Range war: Rancher stands defiant as BLM moves to impound ‘trespass cattle’
Perspectives: The Bundys vs the bureaucracy
ON Kilter: Trespass cattleman not above the law
BLM, National Park Service close public lands due to trespassing cattle dispute
‘Where’s the line?’ Ivory’s crusade to return public lands to the states
Email: dhyland@stgnews.com

Twitter: @dallashyland

Copyright St. George News, StGeorgeUtah.com Inc., 2014, all rights reserved.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 14, 2014 - 07:25pm PT
YAWN! ^^^^^^^^^^

This yet one more MSM OPINION columns.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 14, 2014 - 07:30pm PT
And furthermore, law enforcement as a whole will be rendered impotent as average people with disputes with current laws begin to wonder if they too can call a militia in to force the police to leave them alone.

I'm gonna go ahead and guess that's not going to keep happening
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 07:35pm PT
I blame this debacle on Obummer.
That pussy closet Socialist was so scared he crawled under his desk and shet his sef.
Now if our President were a real manly Amurican like Putin heeda rode in there all bare shirted and sweaty ridin' bare back on some stallion lookin' like the love child of Chuck Norris and Steven Segal. Heeda give all them dissidents the what fer. Heeda prolly single handedly rastle all them dawgies to the ground and rebrand em.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 07:38pm PT
Funny how Huff n Puff Chuff's article uses the Constitution in their argument to defend a man who doesn't believe in it. Except for his misinterpretation of the 2nd Amendment.



Killem all Putin is watchin' from Sarah Palin's house.

Serve uppa big ol bowl a shredded beef with pussy giblits.
John M

climber
Apr 14, 2014 - 07:44pm PT
Brokedown wrote,

The facts just now coming to light about the Solar Green energy development is the REASON, even though Tortoises and Grazing Fees are simply the EXCUSE for this whole exercise in futility.

I disagree with you as Solar energy was not a viable platform 20 plus years ago when this started. Plus they do not need that entire area for a large solar installation. I believe that It was about creating habitat for the desert tortoise from the beginning, however misguided that was. Is Reid's son involved in Solar energy? Yes.. they are trying to get a place near Laughlin Nevada. But that is a recent development and was not viable 20 plus years ago, when this started.

Was that a good idea? I don't know. Is it sad that this man was losing his way of life? certainly. I do believe that the BLM handled this poorly, in how they went about taking this mans cattle. Some of those officers made huge mistakes. I also feel for someone having to deal with a large bureaucracy. I live surrounded by one. It can be no fun. But that also doesn't immediately mean that they are wrong.

This man has floated so many crazy ideas. Who here accepts his belief that the federal government has no say on land that they own? He says its not federal land. Does anyone here believe that?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 07:47pm PT
He reneged on the peace agreement when he decided the Feds should disarm and give him and his mob all thhe guns. That didn't happen. Did he think it would?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 07:52pm PT
I don'[t believe in speed limits and traffic laws. Therefore from now on I'm traveling with an armed vigilante mob.
That way I can speed where ever and when ever I want and if the Man stops me and tries to impose Fed Tyranny on me my gang-o-patriots will make em stand down. In fact everybody should travel with their own armed for armegedon batshitcrazy militia mob so we can all do what we want when ever and where ever we want. What could go wrong?
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 14, 2014 - 07:53pm PT
Run the extremist freeloader's bank account dry. His domestic terrorists friends, aka armed ranchers and other lunatic fringe, have had their fun.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Apr 14, 2014 - 07:53pm PT
These ranchers don't care about the turtles do they??

Nope. After grazing cattle there for 100 years it would be hard to convince him that he is the reason the turtles are now suddenly in trouble. And me.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 08:06pm PT

Apr 14, 2014 - 04:57pm PT
Neither does Senator Harry Reid aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand all his mobster buddy"s. Half or more of which are in State or Federal pens.

Got Link?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 14, 2014 - 08:08pm PT
Chief...is breaking Bundy breaking the law? Yes or no.


tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Apr 14, 2014 - 08:20pm PT
I know nothing of the real details of this situation. What if any credance there is to the land being under state and not fedral control? I do however find it interesting that most if not all of the rednecks that fight the fedral govt over taxes take full advantage of whatever govt money they can get their hands on. I would be very supprised if this guy has not recieved substantual fedral farm subsidies. The real funny thing is they go out and vote repuglican not even realizeing that the repugs are the ones who are cutting their subsidies.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 14, 2014 - 08:21pm PT
Solar energy? Yes.. they are trying to get a place near Laughlin Nevada.
Exactly.
The proposed solar development is many miles south of Bunkerville and across the Colorado River and Lake Mead.
Can Bundy's cattle swim the Colorado? Why would they want to?

Solar farm?
Another red herring

this guy has not recieved substantual fedral farm subsidies
He's certainly been subsidized by the US taxpayer to the tune of $300K. His free ride since 1993.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 14, 2014 - 08:23pm PT
HighT wrote: Solar farm?
Another red herring



Over 200 miles away.
John M

climber
Apr 14, 2014 - 08:23pm PT
come on Tooth.. the man isn't the reason the tortoises are endangered. Its all the development all over the desert. What the government was trying to do was created a natural preserve. They chose the desert that this man leased for grazing.

Chief, it is appropriate to link your sources.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 08:25pm PT
Do you know where this simmering, oozing, pustulating distrust off Government comes from?




Well it's not because of this guy. He's is just the latest recipient of the hate fest. .


No it wasn't Democrats or Liberals or Progressives that created this uneasy situation. They are just the recently branded.



Nope it was the disastrous policies of the double speaking Republicans and Neo-Conservative crack pots like this guy.


Funded by UnAmerican traitors like this...


And managed by soulless Machiavellian murderers like...





Hey The Chuff what was your opinion of the unarmed "Occupy" movement?
Would you have liked them more if they were heavily armed bearded men?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 14, 2014 - 08:29pm PT

why is everyone so damn concerned about the turtles?
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 14, 2014 - 08:33pm PT
Tortoises. ^^^^^^^^^^

Turtles are aquatic based. Tortoises are dry land.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 14, 2014 - 08:36pm PT
ok, so Tortoises

so how and why did they get involved in this thread?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 08:40pm PT

Chief, it is appropriate to link your sources.


Hey I found his source and contrary to what many of us believed he doesn't just pull them out of his ass.
He believes everything he hears from his source because it's just like Jesus talking.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 14, 2014 - 08:49pm PT
so how and why did they get involved in this thread?
So the wackos could drag the Endangered Species Act into this tempest in a teapot. And then by extension, the solar project.
The tentacles of anti-democratic big government.
Did you miss the foaming at the mouth tirade against the Desert Tortoise Conservation Center a few pages back?
John M

climber
Apr 14, 2014 - 08:52pm PT
Norton,

Its simple.

in the early 90s, the desert Tortoise was put on the endangered species list. The feds were mandated to try and find a preserve for them. They chose this chunk of federal land that Bundy and 60 some odd other ranchers were leasing to graze cattle. They bought all the leases, which they were required to do by law, and closed the land to cattle grazing. Was this a good thing? I have no idea. To those affected it was obviously terrible. Bundy refused to accept the deal. But he didn't really have a choice as the land is not his. He claims it is and he claims that the feds have no jurisdiction in the sovereign state of Nevada , but the courts have said so it is federal land multiple times.

Its not much different from some business losing their lease and having to move. Lots of business are killed that way. One of my favorite restaurants went out of business because of that. The owners were old and they didn't want to have to deal with moving. This man likely has a lot invested in his ranch, so moving likely wasn't much of a good option either.

It is a good example of some of the consequences of trying to do good. Try to protect an endangered animal. Ruin someones business.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 14, 2014 - 08:58pm PT
So the wackos could drag the Endangered Species Act into this tempest in a teapot. And then by extension, the solar project.

to divert attention away from paying grazing fees?
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Apr 14, 2014 - 08:59pm PT
Bundy refused to accept the deal. But he didn't really have a choice as the land is not his.

That is not Bundy's version of what is loosely referred to as "the facts". He claims he "fired" the BLM in 1993 because they were not improving "his land" to his satisfaction. Years later the grazing rights were purchased by a conservation group of some type. A wonderful free market solution that the Tea Tards should be delighted to see happen. For some reason they are pissed at the free market now.
John M

climber
Apr 14, 2014 - 09:01pm PT
I'm sure you know the answer to that Norton.



those damned liberals and their conspiracy theories. Always stirring up trouble.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 14, 2014 - 09:05pm PT
Years later the grazing rights were purchased by a conservation group of some type
That's an interesting twist. Not that it changes any of the legality or logic.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 14, 2014 - 09:10pm PT
Keep em coming, Philo. A+
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 14, 2014 - 09:31pm PT
This appears to be a pretty reasonable report on the past couple of days events and current status. The video is worth watching to get the "local color"
http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25244692/nevada-rancher-says-us-may-have-damaged-his-cows

So I'm puzzled by something. Bundy and his son Ammon in previous days were in open defiance of Federal court orders. There had been scuffles between LEOs and Bundyites. Ammon had been arrested, taken to Las Vegas and then released without charges.
On Thursday the 10th the LV TV station 8 reports:
People are coming in from out of state to hold off the federal rangers and many are armed.
...
As for the fight between rangers and ranchers, the BLM agents said they felt threatened and were forced to use tasers, after a protester kicked a K-9.
So the BLM comes back on Friday to execute their legal orders and they bring some armed backup.
D'oh!
And then Ammon Bundy complains on Sunday:
Bundy now has a whole contingent of armed guards surrounding him 24 hours a day.

"They're just there, trying to make sure something crazy doesn't happen to him," Bundy's son Ammon Bundy said.
His security detail and family feel he is someone to be protected because of what the federal government could do.

"There were snipers on the hills and armed guards and you know, military forces with cameras all over." Ammon Bundy said.
Sounds like hyperbole but WTF did they expect? But of course that's a silly question.
The Bundyites were deliberately escalating the situation and provoking armed confrontation with Federal officers performing their duties. They were looking for a fight. They're likely pretty disappointed right now.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 14, 2014 - 09:37pm PT
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 14, 2014 - 09:42pm PT
There's TGT
Better late than never.

Thursday's LV TV8 footage
http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25219828/more-protesters-arriving-to-support-bundy-in-blm-cattle-dispute
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 14, 2014 - 09:49pm PT
I think this entire thread should be included as an addendum to Licky's book. If you are going to make any (specious) copyright claims, get them out now, before the book goes to press.

Poor old marat they hunt you down
The bloodhounds are sniffing all over the town
Just yesterday your printing press was smashed
Now their asking your home address

Poor old Marat in you we trust
You work till your eyes turn as red a rust
But while you write their on your track
The boots mount the staircase
The doors thrown back

Poor old Marat in you we trust
You work till your eyes turn as red a rust
Poor old marat we trust in you
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Apr 14, 2014 - 09:59pm PT
There's TGT
Better late than never.


never would be better.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 14, 2014 - 10:10pm PT
Areas where "free speech" is permitted is not a new idea, nor parade permits, fences, National Guard troops to protect fenced off areas.

Were you complaining at their earlier implementations?

Showtime dudes and I don't mean Kareem and Magic





The issues were a little different from whether some faux-cowboy got some free land to practice his trade.


mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 14, 2014 - 10:28pm PT
NO ONE including Mr Bundy called for "escalation"

Wrong is right(winged) again...

“I’ve got a shotgun,” she said. “It’s loaded and I know how to use it. We’re ready to do what we have to do, but we’d rather win this in the court of public opinion.”

Really... ready to shoot when federal agents come to take YOUR trespassing cattle off FEDERAL land? That sounds a reasonable response.

Tell me Rong, how would you expect LEOs to respond if some Mexicans (legal US citizens) were camping on and vandalizing YOUR property and they said they were ready to shoot if anyone came to remove them? You know what LEO stands for, right?

And you support them Rong? No wonder you are no longer in law enforcement, seeing as how you apparently only believe in enforcing the laws you agree with and only when people you dislike break them.


"If people come to monkey with what's mine, I'll call the county sheriff. If that don't work, I'll gather my friends and kids and we'll try to stop it. I abide by all state laws. But I abide by almost zero federal laws."

uh... you are grazing them on FEDERAL land. You NEVER would have made it there if it weren't for the Federal Government. Merka, love it or leave it dipsh#t. Greatest country in the world... except the whole United part.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 14, 2014 - 10:29pm PT
Ron
sounds as if you were there.

By the way, what is your Burns Brigade?
Does it refer to Union Army General William Wallace Burns of the Civil War and his Philadelphia Brigade? Who served as a junior officer with Johnston when he imposed Federal martial law on Utah in 1857?
The same General William Wallace Burns who fought with distinction to save the Union from the Confederate secession?
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Apr 14, 2014 - 10:43pm PT
So what oath are you keeping Ron? Just curious
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 14, 2014 - 10:44pm PT
Oh man, Ron.

Right wing extremist love this attention.
They've fallen between the cracks,
Why are we giving it to them?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 14, 2014 - 10:46pm PT
confusion, again
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 14, 2014 - 10:47pm PT
The life that we briefly enjoyed. Gone.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:08pm PT
Speaking of the loathed Sen Harry Reid

He grew up not too far from Bundyland. Actually in the middle of the mountains west of the Colorado River.
In Searchlight. Go ahead, try to find it on Google Earth without resorting to the search tool. He's a Mormon.
He wrote a decent little book about what it was like growing up poor in a dysfunctional family in a dying mining town. A pretty hardscrabble growing up. He is not unsympathetic to the Little Guy trying to make his existence in the Nevada desert.
Searchlight: The Camp That Didn't Fail
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:09pm PT
Wow, I guess everyone needs to start going heeled now. If you don't like what the gubment is doing, militia-up and threaten a blood bath.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:10pm PT
why would you encourage?
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:11pm PT
Old men playing make believe

They have no real power, it's purely imaginary

Living on the fringes of society, they huff and puff on the internet trying to out-crazy each other but when it comes down to it they're all talk

They'll die angry and bitter and alone having pushed everyone in their lives away with their obsessions and delusions

Weak-minded fools...if we ignore them they wither and die
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:14pm PT
Ron Anderson
Former LEO
co founder of the NV Burns Brigade
and OATH Keeper

LMFAO. And former corpse stuffer, current hillbilly dipshit with no more insight into this matter that anyone else.

Willie InyoAzz
Former Gulf War Veteran
co Founder of the FU Brigade
Shade tree mechanic
Professional weed tester
Along with seventeen other credentials that make f*#k-all difference.

These pansy asses were hiding behind the skirts of their women, HOPING shots were fired. They admitted as much, here's Glen Beck of all people calling them out in his media endeavor:

The Blaze, the conservative news site affiliated with Glenn Beck, flagged the comments made Monday by Richard Mack, identified as a former Arizona sheriff who had joined more than 1,000 other protesters alongside Cliven Bundy, who has been feuding with BLM over his use of federal land to graze his cattle.

We were actually strategizing to put all the women up at the front,” Mack said in a Fox News clip pulled by The Blaze. “If they are going to start shooting, it’s going to be women that are going to be televised all across the world getting shot by these rogue federal officers.”

Such tough, manly specimens.



tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:21pm PT
They learned that one from the islamist militants. Go figuer....
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:24pm PT
I am impressed with all the energy being shown in this (weirdly funny) thread. By the way, I did not copy and paste the below thoughts from the internet. Unlike many here, I can think for myself.

I give points to High Traverse for his sane and logical thoughts on the subject.

Glad to see Ron Anderson wading back into the schist, and slinging some. (not that I agree with most of his bull-schist).

It appears that the Rancher lost his grazing permit in 1993, for some parts of his BLM grazing allotment, in favor of a Las Vegas subdivision that needed to be tortoise free.

He was offered a monetary settlement, which he refused. I suppose he was greatly offended and maybe not coldly logical about giving up a part of his Mormon ranching legacy.

Of course, as mentioned up-thread, Solar-mirror farms only existed in Science Fiction in 1993.

So----------if we are to believe “The Chief!”

1. Harry Reid is sooooo-smart, he rigged all of this in the favor of his solar power deal with the (fuking) chineeeese in the early 1990’s!

2. Harry Reid’s and/or his parents were sooooo-smart, they bought patented mining claims in and near Searchlight NV, which is about a hundred miles west of the area in question. Here’s a Wiki link to Searchlight. As of the census[5] of 2000, there were 576 people, 315 households, and 136 families.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Searchlight,_Nevada

3. I did not find mention of a 4-lane highway from Las Vegas to Searchlight, which The Chief mentions as another of Harry Reid’s accomplishments to enhance his mining claims.

4 Speaking of Patented mining claims, The Chief’s quotes on Harry Reid and his properties in Searchlight, make Patented mining claims sound as scam-like as Bundy’s BS claims to the government land his cows destroy. Patented mining claims are always listed as private property, and the owners do have to pay county property tax. They are real property, and can be legally bought and sold.

5. I’ve seen quotes that the Federal property being illegally grazed by Bundy is 186,909 to 400,000 acres. Since estimate of Bundy’s cows run around 900, that works out to one cow per 208 – 400 acres. Schisty land to graze or fight over.


Rant on gentlemen.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:31pm PT
Ranchers , like Bundy , are the ones that give ranching a bad name..And then there are the paramilitry leg humpers that exploit Bundy to push their own self-destructive agenda...
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:39pm PT
careful, you may get what you want
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:41pm PT
^^^
Bowl full of sour diesel and a pint of Ben and Jerrys?

I'll admit, that won't do much for my diet.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:42pm PT
I happen to own patented mining claims and they'll go to the Nature Conservancy before either the BLM or the Forest Service ever gets them.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:46pm PT
And how will the nature conservancy "conserve" them Jan? Better take a close look at their other efforts.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:46pm PT
I think this is Ron's Burn's brigade...?
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:56pm PT
Rick-

So what's your suggestion?
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:13am PT
Really Bruce? You don't think the guns had something to do with the outcome? Occupy Wallstreet didn't have guns and look what happened to them. Unfortunately, one of the many precedents this has set is to advertise what the NRA has been saying all along and to probably persuade some left wing dissidents to start carrying as well.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:16am PT
No suggestion Jan. But if you want it conserved in perpetuity i urge you to look at the track record of whatever group you deed it to. Some of them end up as private preserves for the wealthy.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:25am PT
Rick, I've never heard that about the Nature Conservancy but your advice is good. Thanks!
John M

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:26am PT
I agree Jan, the guns helped chill the governments jets, but it also sets a bad precedent.

Jan, I wanted to thank you for what you said earlier in this thread. Something about how much anger there is out there. It helped me look deeper. I still believe that this did start with the government wanting to set up a desert tortoise preserve, but it also underlines how a large entity like the government can hurt people, even under the guise of doing something good. This man had been ranching and leasing this land for a long time and that built a certain expectation.

Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:27am PT
Bruce, you know very well those guns were meant to fire back at the Feds if they fired first. Then again, maybe someone will get the idea to use them on the tortoises. If the darn things did go extinct that would save everyone a lot of problems wouldn't it?
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:28am PT
Are you drunk? You seriously believe the lies this is over turtles? From a government that freely kills innocent brown people overseas by the dozens?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:28am PT
Jan...Rush Limbaugh has some good advice also...listen in tomorrow...
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:30am PT
John, I appreciated your comments also. I worked on a large foreign aid project in Nepal, and I could say the same thing about that. The best of intentions end up hurting people sometimes without meaning to.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:31am PT
Rottingjohnny- I have never listened to Rush Limbaugh in my life and I don't intend to start now.

And no fear, I don't think this was about the tortoises. At best they are a peripheral issue at this point in time.
John M

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:35am PT
At best they are a peripheral issue at this point in time.

Jan, what do you believe is behind it then?
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:39am PT
There were no machine guns there other than in the hands of the BLM "Rangers." Those that I saw in "civilian" hands were legally owned semiautomatic rifles.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:42am PT
Crickets........................
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:47am PT
To Bruce, I also ask the reverse question of you: why did the BLM need to show up with all their "hardware" and attack dogs? I realize this is called begging the question, but it's as legit as what you're asking of Jan.

My answer: it was to emphasize the point that there would be no more Wacos or Ruby Ridges in Nevada.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:50am PT
I think John, it's about what the battles in the West have always been about - the use of resources and land. Promises broken, treaties ignored, and small stakeholders pushed around by big money interests. First the Indians and now the cowboys.And as you said, good intentions not well thought out and incomprehension of the other's position because the life styles are so different.

And yes, there is a lot of anger out there over Waco and Ruby Ridge. And I'm still mad about what I saw when I lived in Berkeley during the '60's.

Peace marchers sitting on the ground singing when a Hell's Angel wades into the crowd and started beating hippies with a motorcycle chain while the Oakland cops stood there and laughed until the Hell's Angel broke the leg of a Berkeley policeman, and then they intervened.

Two Oakland policemen getting drunk and shooting out the windows of the Black Panther headquarters from the top of the cop car while the red light circled around.

People get the respect they earn whether in uniform or not.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:51am PT
Not semantics. Does the average cop on the beat carry a machine gun? Short answer: no. The mere fact that there were roped off "First Amendment" areas and the big white paddy wagon ENCOURAGED the response that occurred.
WBraun

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:01am PT
Bruce Kay

You really really are a nutcase .....
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:04am PT
Bruce-

The carry you refer to for the cop in the cop car or on the street is as you surmised; strictly for personal defense. The hardware the BLM so-called Rangers were carrying were Assault Rifles in the truest form; selective fire weapons capable of either single shots or burst fire. Were they necessary for any other purpose than INTIMIDATION? And that, my friend, is why the other "old white dudes" showed up packing their hardware.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:04am PT
If you look at statistics, the average policeman who dies in the line of duty does so in an urban area and most likely from a handgun. Cowboys out West shoot bullet holes in road signs but they are not known for shooting cops with their hunting rifles.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:09am PT
Remarkable isn't it, over a thousand armed westerners without a single incident. Meanwhile, how many people died over the weekend from criminals who carry the only weapons in gun controlled major cities.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:11am PT
Well you tell me Bruce what answer it is you're looking for. It seems to me you're being very coy with your questions.
John M

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:12am PT
what Bruce means is that guns are meant to kill things. So what he is saying is that they were carrying guns which indicated that they were willing to kill a police officer doing his duty.

What would have happened if someone had fired accidentally?

At Waco both sides say that they did not fire first. 4 ATF agents and 6 branch davidians were killed in the initial raid because someone shot first.
John M

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:16am PT
what Jan meant is that your questions are leading. You know the answer that you are after, so why not stop playing games and just make your case..
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:16am PT
You know Bruce, we are all products of history and the history of the United States whether you agree, or whether any of us agree with it or not, is that citizens have the right to bear arms and to fight against what they perceive as unjust government. The British complained at Lexinghton and Concord that we didn't respect their authority and fight fair. They made the same complaint at the Battle of New Orleans. Santa Ana couldn't believe that less than a hundred Texans would stand up and fight 4,000 Mexicans to the death but it happened. It's part of our heritage and that's what people had in mind when they showed up in Nevada.

At Waco plenty of women and children died huddled under blankets after the place went up in flames because the Feds took action instead of waiting them out. I doubt that will ever happen again. At Ruby Ridge the Feds shot a woman holding a baby and then shot family dog. There are reasons people in the West don't trust the federal government much and recent examples of what happens if people don't defend their neighbors. Right or wrong, that is the current thinking.













rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:18am PT
Simple answer frosty back. Brokendownclimber stated it succinctly above-the citizens were armed for self defense to avoid another Waco or Ruby Ridge. Got it dummy?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:21am PT
At Waco plenty of women and children died huddled under blankets after the place went up in flames because the Feds took action instead of waiting them out. I doubt that will ever happen again.

and in the meantime, the rape of children went on, and on.

Odd thing that you are advocating be accepted, Jan.
John M

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:22am PT
No bruce, I don't recall. And I don't respond well to being led. Did my above post come close to what you are trying to say?
WBraun

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:22am PT
If Bruce ever stops running his mouth long enough for a while he might actually learn something.

But he can't.

He needs to talk endlessly (motor mouth) ...
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:22am PT
"Doing his duty"... Ha!

A lot of LEO's recently have gone way too far. Murder, beatings, etc....

And those are just the events caught on camera.

It would seem to be the Feds are pushing as hard as possible for a hot shooting conflict and the people are pushing back. There's no reason for this. The feds could ruin this guy economically without firing a shot.

We know this first batch of 'militia' will get slaughtered without a doubt.

Look around the world at what this regime is trying to ignite.

When the thieves can print 75 billion a month, eventually time runs out. War is always next. Internal or external. Maybe both.

Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:30am PT
Better to be dead than have a professional investigation of whether those sexual assaults occured or not, is that your position Ken? I thought people were innocent until proven guilty.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:30am PT
To Bruce, I also ask the reverse question of you: why did the BLM need to show up with all their "hardware" and attack dogs?

This is the time-tested (and true) logic of law enforcement: When a confrontation is occurring, there can be two outcomes: talking, or an escalation by the other side into physical attacks. By demonstrating overwhelming potential force, making it obvious that escalation into attacks will result in total defeat, that option is eliminated, except in the case of the crazy.

This is why police will always show up for a problem when possible with overwhelming seeming overkill.....to avoid violence in the first place. They'd show up with 10:1 if possible.

It was a big complaint of the Occupy people, but it kept the Blackshirts from turning the entire thing into a bloody mess.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:33am PT
We know this first batch of 'militia' will get slaughtered without a doubt.

And the police knew that, too. So they backed down inasmuch as the "militia" was likely to set off something that would have led to that. And it was NOT the goal of the police, thus the action.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:36am PT
And since when is Supertopo a court of justice?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:36am PT
Better to be dead than have a professional investigation of whether those sexual assaults occured or not, is that your position Ken?

Actually, inasmuch as I doubt that you've been involved in such investigations, and I have, I'm wondering what you would do when you went to do that, and you were met with guns. How long would you "negotiate" while the likely rapes are happening? How many months? How many rapes? How many children?

share your wisdom as to what professionals should do.
John M

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:36am PT
Of course Bruce, but this is not a court of law and few people like to sit on trail, even as a witness and be led by the nose.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:39am PT
The facts are indisputable. Since 1993, Bundy has refused to pay grazing fees for his use of 600,000 acres of PUBLIC land. The kook doesn't recognize the authority of the federal government to administer the lands. In 2013, a federal court ordered him to remove his cattle from the land or they would be confiscated to pay off the $1 million in fees and trespassing fines. He ignored them and confiscation of the cows began last week, before being halted because the BLM wanted to avoid a "range war" with armed militia and other domestic terrorists.

Side with the anti-government extremists? What the f*#k is the matter with you?
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:39am PT
The purpose of the 2nd Amendment allows the citizenry to be armed equivalently to the military for the reason Jan so succinctly stated above. To be able to resist a government perceived by the citizenry as bullies or tyrants. The militarization of various regulatory agencies is flat out WRONG.

Armed men are Citizens, but you Frostbacks up in Canada, are SUBJECTS.

I PHRASED IT THIS WAY TO AVOID ANY AMBIGUITY OF YOUR UNDERSTANDING WHY THE OLD WHITE DUDES WERE PACKING HEAVY. If the Feds had started the shooting, they would have died. Right. There.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:43am PT
Seek mental help, brokedown. Fast. In Canada it would be free.
John M

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:46am PT
The other violates civil order.

Interesting discussion. One I have not been involved in in a long time.

I disagree with this statement. Civil order can come about because the majority of people, though armed, believe in civil order.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:52am PT
Well Bruce, I think one of the positives that will come out of this is that yes, a few more Americans will come out of their shopping mall and tv induced torpor and think about these issues and discuss them with friends.

And I do like your characterization of either conclusion - cops with overwhelming firepower or citizens with more than the cops, to be an unpalatable dilemma.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:55am PT
I very well understand what Bruce is getting at, but it doesn't set well here in the USA or anywhere else when carried to the extremes he's suggesting. When Government and Police have the monopoly of force, it's called a POLICE STATE. Yes. the Average American likes to think his home is his castle. That's the difference in heritage, I guess?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:55am PT
In his own words Bundy has stated he doesn't believe there is any federal land in the state of Nevada. Anyone agreeing with or defending that point of view is a complete idiot. It seldom gets any simpler than this.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:57am PT
This whole situation has already gone way beyond the specifics of Bundy. He's just a symbol at this point of a much larger discontent. Governments ignore populist symbols at their peril.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:02am PT
Yes, a discontent that is the specific product of a forty year campaign of division and hate run by guys like Atwater, Reed, and Rove. What we're seeing now is simply what you'd expect after deliberately radicalizing the Republican party. You can't move the Republican party this far to the right without creating a violence-prone far right. It's already now out of Rove's control and, like Atwater on his deathbed, one day he'll regret his actions.
John M

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:04am PT
The armed ones, you may have noticed, do not believe in civil order. That is the whole problem. They are subverting the rule of law by way of threat of force.

At first I agreed with this, but I'm not certain that I accept this anymore. What you are saying is that they should just accept whatever the government decides, even the courts. But what if the courts are wrong.

And yes, the consequences are extreme, so of course one should make certain that they are right. have these people? considering all the extreme things that they have said, I kind of doubt it. But it is still their right to show up armed.

I was shopping this past year in Oakhurst Ca and some folks were saying that because Obama was going to take all of their guns away that a civil war was about to start. I walked up to them and told them that I couldn't help but overhear them. I told them that I had voted for obama and did not believe that he would try to take away all of their guns. I then asked them which one of them planned to shoot me should a civil war "break out". I was trying to remind them that these were people they were talking about killing. Their neighbors.

Something that perhaps the government has forgotten in this case, that this was someone's livelihood that was taken away.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:04am PT
Maybe it's as simple as an objection to the BLM managing 87% of the land in Nevada.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:05am PT
Healeyje, I think it goes back further than that (Chaz is right on the mark with the 87%) but I don't disagree with what you've said. On the other hand, Waco happened under Clinton.

John M

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:05am PT
Yes, a discontent that is the specific product of a forty year campaign of division and hate run by guys like Atwater, Reed, and Rove. What we're seeing now is simply what you'd expect after deliberately radicalizing the Republican party. You simply can't move the Republican party this far to the right without creating a violence-prone far right. It's already now out of Rove's control

I agree with this..

Edit: but I also see an overreaching government.
John M

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:09am PT
On the other hand, Waco happened under Clinton.

Waco is not an example of an overreaching government. Waco is an example of an ignorant government faced with a radical extremist.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:09am PT
None of your guns will ever stop the government should they decide to take action against the people. Shut down the gas pipelines, control food distribution and water supply and it's over in a week. I mean, really, how many fat f*#ks with guns are going to walk to a conflict?
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:09am PT
Jan certainly speaks better than I in getting to the whole point of things; whether Bundy is right or wrong is no longer the issue; he's the symbolic red herring. If there is anything to the grab of his land for any other purpose, there will be consequences.

I sympathize with him for the simple reason of not wishing to change his lifestyle at his age. None of us have facts beyond those provided by some second hand source of information. For all I know, he could be a raving lunatic, but I don't think so. He sees his way of life vanishing and the legacy of his forebears being trashed. That has steeled his resolve into this position.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:12am PT
Same deal. Exact same deal....
A completely moronic claim.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:16am PT
healeyje, what you say is true so long as the military backs the government. It is my experience however, that the military are much more versed in the Constitution than the civilian world and would be reluctant to do that. They are after all, sworn to defend the Constitution, not the government or the President and they know the difference between lawful and unlawful orders.

It's also true, that our political leaders in order to conquer our people would have to give up any pretense of being democratic which they would be reluctant to do, especially when faced with a long drawn out guerilla war.

The greatest danger to our country is public apathy.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:17am PT
Chief, please don't attempt to equate native amormocan and Native American claims and histories as it's both insulting and makes you look like an idiot.
John M

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:20am PT
For all I know, he could be a raving lunatic, but I don't think so

well, he has purportedly said..

” Though he swears that he will “abide by all of Nevada state laws,” he adds that “I don’t recognize [the] United States Government as even existing.”

From this article..

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/04/14/3426222/militia-rancher-behind-bars/

quoting this interview which I have not listened to. So take with a grain of salt.

http://danaloeschradio.com/the-western-war-last-remaining-rancher-vs-the-federal-govt/

Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:20am PT
Meanwhile guys, there's a lunar eclipse going on. The moon is about half covered now in the clear sky of Colorado.
John M

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:28am PT
The BLM took the land and sold it for mining money.

Last time you said it was for solar. So which is it? Do you have proof of this? What is your source?
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:30am PT
Someone here posed the question about Oath Keepers; I may not have this entirely right since I'm not affiliated with them.

The first act upon joining the Military of the United States involves taking "The Oath."

The Oath is: I do solemnly swear to Protect and Defend the Constitution of the United States against All enemies both Foreign AND DOMESTIC, and to obey the Lawful Orders of those appointed over me, so help me God.

Oath keepers realize that those of us who have served Honorably have never been released or relieved form that Oath.

Another key word is Lawful as in lawful Orders. Lawful has a specific legal meaning "in strict accordance to the Constitution." Any order which is based on a possibly Unconstitutional Statute is thereby Null and Void.

What this entire discussion has done is remind me that I've never been relieved of my Oath, either.

United States Army 21 September 1961 to 26 August 1964. DD 214.
John M

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:37am PT
Any order which is based on a possibly Unconstitutional Statute in thereby Null and Void.

lots of leeway in that statement. Is it really a defense if these guys start shooting and claim they were defending someone from something that was unconstitutional?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:39am PT
More, so much more will be revealed there in Nevada.
No there isn't. And if there's a 'bad guy' here it isn't the Federal Government, the courts, or the BLM - it's exactly the Clark County Bundy keeps talking up. They're the ones who picked up his leases and retired them to mitigate its own development plans.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:41am PT
I don't know the answer to that question John, but I'm betting this case goes all the way to the Supreme Court, funded by the Koch brothers, and it will be really interesting to see what a conservative majority on the court does with it.

And part of the complaint here Bruce is that the BLM is not a justice institution. It is an administrative institution, with visions of law enforcement grandeur.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:43am PT
It certainly would be a defense for any Military man who has taken the oath to NOT fire on a crowd of civilians if ordered to do so...

These BLM Rangers have never taken that sort of oath
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:46am PT
The Chief has his own reality, which makes him feel good about himself.

Meantimes that lunar eclipse -----eclipses this bull-schisters thread.

Leave your keyboards ------and check it out.

Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:47am PT
The Lunar eclipse is nearing totality and will be there in about 5 minutes.
John M

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:48am PT
Again: do you so hate and deem corrupt your justice institutions so much that you prefer to be able to shoot them when they conduct their duty?

I would say most do not hate them entirely . But there has been seemingly a lot of police officers committing what appear to be egregious acts and getting away with them.

I believe that part of what ails america is that many people feel like their government no longer represents them and in some ways has become a bully. Healyje posted above about how some in the right wing have been helping to foster this feeling. That you can't trust the government. There is a lot of divisiveness in this country right now. Its not good. I still believe that the average American is good, but even good people can do crazy things if you push them enough.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:49am PT
Hey some of us can type and then run outside for a look and then back in again. It's too cold in Colorado to spend much time out there anyway.

And very well put John.

Probably more powerful in the end than citizens with guns will be citizens with video cameras.
hashbro

Trad climber
Mental Physics........
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:57am PT
http://m.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/04/the-irony-of-cliven-bundys-unconstitutional-stand/360587/

Twenty-one years ago, rancher Cliven Bundy stopped paying his grazing fees.

Bundy does not recognize federal authority over land where his ancestors first settled in the 1880s, which he claims belongs to the state of Nevada. The Bureau of Land Management disagreed and took him to federal court, which first ruled in favor of the BLM in 1998. After years of attempts at a negotiated settlement over the $1.2 million Bundy owes in fees failed, federal land agents began seizing hundreds of his cattle illegally grazing on public land last week.

But after footage of a BLM agent using a stun gun on Bundy's adult son went viral in far-right circles, hundreds of armed militia supporters from neighboring states flocked to Bundy's ranch to defend him from the BLM agents enforcing the court order. The states'-rights groups, in echoes of Ruby Ridge and Waco, came armed and prepared for violence. "I'm ready to pull the trigger if fired upon," one of the anti-government activists told Reuters. Not eager to spill blood over cattle, the BLM backed down Sunday and started returning the livestock it had confiscated. The agency says it won't drop the matter and will "continue to work to resolve the matter administratively and judicially."

Federalism—genuine states' rights—is perhaps more familiar to Nevadans than to any other state's denizens. To boost the state's ailing economy in the early 20th century, Nevada exploited the federal architecture of American law to create uniquely permissive laws on divorce, gambling, and prostitution, bringing in much-needed tourism revenue and giving the state a distinctive libertarian character. Just this weekend, the state Republican Party dropped statements opposing abortion and same-sex marriage from its platform at their convention, bucking the party's national stance.

But Bundy's understanding of states' rights is far different. As he told Sean Hannity in an interview last week (emphasis added):

Well, you know, my cattle is only one issue—that the United States courts has ordered that the government can seize my cattle. But what they have done is seized Nevada statehood, Nevada law, Clark County public land, access to the land, and have seized access to all of the other rights of Clark County people that like to go hunting and fishing. They've closed all those things down, and we're here to protest that action. And we are after freedom. We're after liberty. That's what we want.

Bundy's claim that the land belongs to Nevada or Clark County didn't hold up in court, nor did his claim of inheriting an ancestral right to use the land that pre-empts the BLM's role. "We definitely don't recognize [the BLM director's] jurisdiction or authority, his arresting power or policing power in any way," Bundy told his supporters, according to The Guardian.

His personal grievance with federal authority doesn't stop with the BLM, though. "I believe this is a sovereign state of Nevada," Bundy said in a radio interview last Thursday. "I abide by all of Nevada state laws. But I don’t recognize the United States government as even existing." Ironically, this position directly contradicts Article 1, Section 2 of the Nevada Constitution:

All political power is inherent in the people. Government is instituted for the protection, security and benefit of the people; and they have the right to alter or reform the same whenever the public good may require it. But the Paramount Allegiance of every citizen is due to the Federal Government in the exercise of all its Constitutional powers as the same have been or may be defined by the Supreme Court of the United States; and no power exists in the people of this or any other State of the Federal Union to dissolve their connection therewith or perform any act tending to impair, subvert, or resist the Supreme Authority of the government of the United States. The Constitution of the United States confers full power on the Federal Government to maintain and Perpetuate its existence, and whensoever any portion of the States, or people thereof attempt to secede from the Federal Union, or forcibly resist the Execution of its laws, the Federal Government may, by warrant of the Constitution, employ armed force in compelling obedience to its Authority.

The paramount-allegiance clause, a product of the era in which Nevada gained statehood, originated in Nevada's first (and unofficial) constitutional convention of 1863. Some 3,000 miles to the east, the Civil War raged between the federal government in the North and West and the rebellion that had swallowed the South. In early 1864, Abraham Lincoln—who wanted more pro-Union states in Congress so as to pass the amendment to abolish slavery, and a few more electoral votes to guarantee his reelection that fall—signed a bill authorizing Nevada to convene an official constitutional convention for statehood. The state constitution's framers, who were overwhelmingly Unionist, retained the clause in solidarity with the Union when they gathered in July 1864.

Nevada isn't the only state with a paramount-allegiance clause. Republicans added similar clauses to Reconstruction-era state constitutions throughout the South, although few survived subsequent revisions after federal troops departed. Even the states that retain the phrase "paramount allegiance" today, like North Carolina and Mississippi, don't share Nevada's explicit constitutional openness toward armed federal intervention to enforce it.

That pro-federal sentiment also guided Nevada's first congressional delegation when it arrived in the nation's capital in early 1865. William Stewart, the Silver State's first senator, proposed an amendment to the U.S. Constitution in December 1865 that would've enshrined a weaker form of the paramount allegiance clause at the federal level:

First—The Union of the States, under this constitution, is indissoluble, and no State can absolve its citizens from the obligation of paramount allegiance to the United States.

Second—No engagement made, or obligation incurred by any State, or by any number of States, or by any county, city, or any other municipal corporation to subvert, impair, or resist the authority of the United States, or to support or aid any legislative convention or body in hostility to such authority, shall ever be held, voted, or be assumed or sustained, in whole or part, by any State or by the United States.

This proposed amendment—which would have resolved secession's constitutionality for all time—did not succeed. The U.S. Supreme Court later ruled in Texas v. White in 1869 that secession had been unconstitutional and that "the Constitution, in all its provisions, looks to an indestructible Union composed of indestructible states." Stewart nevertheless left his mark on the Constitution the same year as White, when he wrote what would become the Fifteenth Amendment, guaranteeing black suffrage.

Two decades after Nevada's founders proclaimed unswerving obedience to federal authority, Cliven Bundy's family first settled the land where he and his supporters now make their heavily armed stand against federal power. It's doubtful even the Nevada Constitution will change their minds—if legal and constitutional arguments could persuade the militia movement, there might not be a militia movement.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 15, 2014 - 03:09am PT
Here's a shot just taken moments ago. near totality then, and dark as I write this.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 15, 2014 - 03:15am PT




TheOath is: I do solemnly swear to Protect and Defend the Constitution of the United States against All enemies both Foreign AND DOMESTIC, and to obey the Lawful Orders of those appointed over me, so help me God.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 15, 2014 - 03:25am PT
HmmmImagine that Rong and the Chuff are wrong.



Right wing disinformation: Bundy’s Land Is NOT Solar Farm for Harry Reid
by RALPH MAUGHAN on APRIL 13, 2014 · 80 COMMENTS · in B.L.M., CATTLE, GRAZING AND LIVESTOCK, NEVADA, POLITICS
Right wing seizes on Bundy trespass to go after Harry Reid-

When a local issue goes national, it is often warped into other political agendas. We see that clearly with Cliven Bundy’s 20 years of public land cattle trespass coming to a head.

A cursory search shows a sudden explosion of articles claiming Nevada’s senior senator, Harry Reid, wants Bundy’s land (all Bundy actually owns is a melon farm) to build a solar plant to enrich himself and his son. Since Reid is the U.S. Senate Majority Leader, the radical right has every incentive to harm him by making this false claim. Such a blatant lie needs to be exposed.

Bundy has been trespassing over 750,000 acres of U.S. public land to the south of Mesquite and Bunkerville, Nevada. Bundy’s actual private property is his melon farm at Bunkerville, which looks like maybe 100 acres on Google Earth. There is a solar farm. But it is not on the huge swath of land Bundy is trespassing on. The solar facility is actually under construction near the Moapa Indian Reservation about ten miles closer to Las Vegas.

The Wildlife News has been critical of many solar farms in the desert because of the massive destruction of wildlife habitat, but this farm under construction is not one of the dangerous mirror farms like Ivanpah near Primm, Nevada/California. It is a photovoltaic farm and it is being built to allow decommissioning of the Reid Gardner coal generation station nearby. Reid Gardner is one of the dirtiest coal plants in the nation. In addition, the new solar plant will also help the tribe which has been badly abused in the past, being left with only a 1000 acre reservation. No, the plant is not on the reservation. See the local newspaper: Reid Helps Moapa Band Break Ground On Solar Project. Moapa Valley Progress. March 26, 2014.


The Reid Gardner coal generation station. Copyright Ralph Maughan
It is amazing that conspiracy theorist Alex Jones would actually publish a map showing the location of the project. Anyone with the least geographic information can see it is not on the land where Bundy has been stealing the public’s grass for a generation.

There is also a solar farm proposal near Laughlin, Nevada, at the very southern tip of the state. Some of the right wing news outlets also confuses this with the trespass land near Mesquite. Here is an earlier story about the Laughlin project. The Chinese Try to Harness the Nevada Sun. Regarding this plant, back on April 5, Bloomberg Businessweek tried to work a negative Chinese angle. Now it too has been morphed onto the public land where Bundy has no right to graze and where he has threatened violence if not allowed to continue his illegal activity.

The only thing that has been proposed for the public land where Bundy’s cows continue to trespass is some kind of protective classification like a scenic area, recreation area, national monument.

The right wing media is using the unfortunate ignorance of Nevada geography to make the attack by the armed mob on the BLM into a political point against Senator Reid. Though it is doubtful Bundy knew what would happen, his cause has already been picked up by the Koch Brothers who really do want our public land — all of it. Their Americans for Prosperity front group is trumpeting Bundy’s cause. The animosity between Senator Reid and the Koch brothers is well known. The Kochs have already spent perhaps 50-million dollars in attack ads trying to win a Republican senate majority this fall. Some Republicans worry these energy and chemical barons are trying to build a parallel political party.

Together the Kochs have 100-billion dollars to play with, the 5th and 6th richest men on the planet. They can now spend as much as they want on American elections, courtesy of the Supreme Court. They can, and probably will spend more in 2014 than was spent in the entire 2012 campaign. They could fund it many times over.

Some folks must really dig sucking Koch.
John M

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 03:29am PT
If they are getting away with it prosecute them. It is the civil way. The other way is vigilantism.

what happens when the people believe that the courts have broken down and the government no longer represents them? What recourse do you have then?

I do agree that this case is not the best case, but as Jan says, this feeling is running strong in some parts of this country.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 15, 2014 - 03:37am PT
I do agree that this case is not the best case, but as Jan says, this feeling is running strong in some parts of this country.

And again, that didn't happen by accident, it was a deliberate, forty-year campaign of hate and fear which, in the end, was even more successful than it's creators anticipated. Now those same folks are trying to disown the Tea Party, far-right nutjobs, and all the other unintended (but entirely predictable) consequences of their own actions. It's not at all unlike the right now trying to distance themselves from the neocons - hypocritical in the extreme.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 15, 2014 - 03:48am PT
And the children burned to death there? Did they deserve it?

Why were they punished the same as their elders?

What about seige tactics? That's a well tried strategy. When they got hungry and had no more news coverage most would have come out.

And don't forget, another way our history is different than yours is that we were also founded by a lot of religious dissidents many of whom were just as whacky as David Koreash. It's normally considered a virtue to tolerate them.

Take Doukabors and multiply by a thousand and you get some idea.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 15, 2014 - 04:00am PT
Well we can hope the see their day in court.

We used to be a Nation of laws. Now we are devolving into lawless vigilantism fueled by Anti-American greedy billionaires. And some would defend this crap. Send in the tanks.

Clearly we Progressive Libtards have learned a valuable lesson here. The next "Occupy" movement should be attended by heavily armed whackos. That way FOX news will cover the story and defend these patriotic Americans taking power away from tyrannical authority.

Because the Occupy movement has been characterized by the far right as an unruly mob of angry dissidents. Pity they were not armed to the teeth so as to get those tyrannical coppers to back off.


Listen we have an abundance of problems in this country not the least of which is a too large a population percentage of ignorant rednecks fueled by reliogiosity and guns.

Lawless mob vigilantes are NOT the way to deal with our problems.
If you support Bundy you are deluded.
John M

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 04:03am PT
Hindsight is 20/20. I doubt that there was very many people who would have believed that they would let themselves be burned up rather then give up to the Feds. So how could that have been predicted. Now we are more aware that those kinds of nuts exist, which is likely one reason the feds backed off in this recent standoff.

Plus there are different kinds of religious wackiness. Some are more benign then others.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 15, 2014 - 04:12am PT
And the children burned to death there? Did they deserve it?

Why were they punished the same as their elders?

What about seige tactics?

Most of these badly-handled standoffs between the government and various whackjobs have a lot to do with the local cultures involved - if Waco had been in Vermont the outcome would likely have been entirely different.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 15, 2014 - 06:13am PT
We used to march in the streets in peacefull protest against injustices like war, racial inequality and environmental protections. Those were noble causes. What you have in Nevadastan is plain and simple armed insurrection nothing more nothing less.
These peabrains with their pea shooters are not engaged in some noble battle against great injustice. Yhey are NOT speaking truth to power. They are just at best misguided souls and at worst sociopaths itchin' fer a feud with the feds.
Imagine if Martin Luther King had advocated for armed insurrection.
How would that have worked out?.
Please don't Crimea river about some rancher loosing his way of life because the big bad BLM won't let him continue to abuse public lands with his private cows.Tell me how many familys have been displaced when the big banks foreclosed on the family farm?
One asinine old coot rancher on a salt brush wasteland pffft give me a break.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Apr 15, 2014 - 06:54am PT
Bruce you are a pompus asswhipe. If you just came out and said what you wanted to say without all the bullshit lead up it would have been a constructive argument on your part.

Any of you teabagger nut jobs that want a shooting insurection would do well to look at what has happened in all the other countrys that have tried this recently. they have all turned into shitholes.

Jan. the military will look after their own. any chance to use their toys for real and they jump on it. They are the last folks that I would trust to preserve the constitution. look what happened in katrina. they came in and confiscated peoples guns for no reason other than to use their power.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Apr 15, 2014 - 09:38am PT
Dude your just being a dick and talking in fcking circles. jan answered you question very well and you are not happy with the answer. the guns are our heritage and our right to protect ourselfs from an over reaching fedral govt even if the actual ability to do so is a fantasy.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Apr 15, 2014 - 09:43am PT
I doubt anyone actually thinks this is resolved. the feds will get all their paperwork in order, they will get a warrent or whatever and eventualy come back with armored cars and all kinds of sh#t if the guy does not comply. meawhile all the milita typs who showed up are under a homland security microscope.

And yes bruce the guns are for killing people and critters that either threaten you, piss you off or in the case of critters are tasty.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 15, 2014 - 10:22am PT
The BLM took the land

NOT FROM BUNDY THEY DIDN'T. THE ONLY THING THEY DID IS CHANGE THE GRAZING FEES, WHICH EVERY OTHER RANCHER HAS HAD TO ABIDE BY SINDE 1993.

It is despicable that you morans continue to defend a criminal who knew he was breaking the law for over 2 decades.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 15, 2014 - 10:28am PT
Some of you folks just don't get it that other people from other first world countries don't agree or understand America fascination/right to bear arms.


They find it somewhat primitive thinking. I agree.


Bundy is a common criminal.
WBraun

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 10:31am PT
It's not over.

The govt will come back any day now and raid the Bundy ranch.

Harry Reid already made the statements the govt will enforce their actions against Bundy.

Also Bundy claims that the BLM strayed from their original agency mission of protection and thus he's doing a civil disobedience by not paying anymore.

He actually paid for years and then stopped after what he said the BLM was not using the fees for what they were really intended for.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 15, 2014 - 10:46am PT
If you have ever been involved in the management of public lands you know these people make up a small percentage of every population.

I helped survey property boundaries because some guy built his shed on Forest Service land because he wanted it next to his driveway but there wasn't room on his lot. Some idiots apparently think he had that right... and the right to protect his shed from the FS with guns.

Remember that one time when the Occupy movement PEACEFULLY set up camp (trespassed and vandalized) in public spaces? Remember how happy the right wing nut jobs were when they got booted? They were practically BEGGING to have them run out of the parks at gun point.

Bundy is a criminal, plain and simple... has been since he refused to pay his grazing fees in 1993.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 15, 2014 - 10:46am PT
The enemy within...http://us.cnn.com/2014/04/14/opinion/bergen-sterman-kansas-shooting/index.html?sr=sharebar_twitter


Right wing wack job...keep making heroes out of them.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 15, 2014 - 10:49am PT
He actually paid for years and then stopped after what he said the BLM was not using the fees for what they were really intended for.

So... does that mean I get to mobilize a militia and come to Yosemite and refuse to pay the entrance fee... because I say they aren't using my fees for what they were really intended?

God bless Merkins.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 15, 2014 - 10:59am PT
Bruce-

An internet forum is where people are supposed to have a reasonable discourse, a standard sadly lacking much of the time. You however, are trying to turn it into a courtroom with you as the prosecutor and people who have different experiences and views as the accused in the witness box. That's why people are annoyed with you. Don't think that because we don't call you out on it, that we don't observe your smug self righteousness. You are as draped in the Canadian flag as any American militia is in the U.S. flag. I know because I visit family there frequently and I have been subjected to your tactics many times.

What I have been trying to do is explain the views of people who live in the American West, particularly the descendants of the original pioneers who were invited by our government to settle those lands at great personal risk and hardship. That's what anthropologists do. We are cultural interpreters. We don't pass public judgements on those we study although in private we do joke among ourselves.

I am no stranger to criticism of America. I have lived overseas for half my life and I was a student in France. The French however, argue fairly, and they appreciate logic whether they agree with it or not. They're not passive aggressive and they certainly don't have an inferiority feeling toward the Americans.You could learn a lot from them. You could also learn a lot about Canadian failings by reading your own First Nation people's literature not to mention that of the French Canadians who for some odd reason don't feel that English speaking Canadians are quite as reasonable as they see themselves.

Personally, I prefer to live in countries that don't have an armed citizenry but given the realities of life in the American West, today as well as the past, a lot of people need firearms here. We don't live in urban Europe or Japan.

I've been in Vancouver when my sister's caretaker called from her farm in B.C. that a bear was dismantling the chicken house by ripping the walls off and what should she do? My sister then had to call a dispatcher in Vancouver who woke up a game warden somewhere outside of Nelson who took an hour and a half to get to the farm by which time the bear was gone and half the chickens dead. And that happened three more times. That's how gun laws work in Canada. Finally my sister had to install a high powered electric fence that killed a lot of other wildlife, in order to keep the bear out until it disappeared, the victim finally of someone with an illegal American weapon in Canada. Shoot, shovel and shut up works in Canada too.
WBraun

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 11:01am PT
mechrist -- "So... does that mean I get to mobilize a militia and come to Yosemite and refuse to pay the entrance fee...
because I say they aren't using my fees for what they were really intended?"

Of course you can.

But as everyone already knows,

Good luck with that.

After the Yosemite riots back in 1970 the Hells Angels said they're coming to Yosemite and take the park from the govt, and make it the "Peoples Park".

LOL

Or burn it to the ground.

We got hired on as emergency firefighters during that time.

Pretty funny times .....
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 15, 2014 - 11:01am PT
but given the realities of life in the American West, today as well as the past, a lot of people need firearms here

So... why did they need them in this situation? Why did people from WY need to drive to southern NV with their guns?



After the Yosemite riots back in 1970 the Hells Angels said they're coming to Yosemite and take the park from the govt, and make it the "Peoples Park".

Interesting! Rong, Chuff, other right wing pigeons... rally the troops, it is time to take Yosemite BACK!!! Let's do this shit!
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 15, 2014 - 11:02am PT
I always thought Ron is a crazy ass whack job ready to implode/explode. Events like this just brings him closer to that point.

They love this sh#t, they don't care about facts, just emotions and what they can conjure in their little brains.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 15, 2014 - 11:04am PT
Bundy paid his fees for over 110 years.

Wow, HE is old.

Funny since BLM grazing fees haven't been around for 110 years... prior to the late 30's grazing was unregulated.

But don't let the facts get in the way of your imagination.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 15, 2014 - 11:07am PT
Jan wrote: What I have been trying to do is explain the views of people who live in the American West, particularly the descendants of the original pioneers who were invited by our government to settle those lands at great personal risk and hardship.

There lies some of the problems...most of that land was given to the "pioneers" for free or at very little cost by the US government.

That sense of entitlement hasn't left some people and Bundy is a great example of that.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 15, 2014 - 11:08am PT
I don't know anything about Dann's. But feel free to tell us all about your new strawman so we can clearly illustrate the striking differences between Dann's and Bundy's as far as grazing rights are concerned.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 15, 2014 - 11:09am PT
Bundy paid his fees for over 110 years.

Damn, Methuselah up in this beyotch. (Nice. See you been editing there Chuff)

That's why they are annoyed with you

Negative. Ya'll are annoyed because he is systematically handing you your asses and blowing your "arguments" such as they are, completely out of the water while making you look like pathetic, inconsistent school children.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 15, 2014 - 11:14am PT
"During the era of homesteading, Western public rangelands were often overgrazed because of policies designed to promote the settlement of the West and a lack of understanding of these arid ecosystems. In response to requests from Western ranchers, Congress passed the Taylor Grazing Act of 1934 (named after Rep. Edward Taylor of Colorado), which led to the creation of grazing districts in which grazing use was apportioned and regulated. Under the Taylor Grazing Act, the first grazing district to be established was Wyoming Grazing District Number 1 on March 23, 1935. Secretary of the Interior Harold Ickes created a Division of Grazing within the Department to administer the grazing districts; this division later became the U.S. Grazing Service and was headquartered in Salt Lake City. In 1946, as a result of a government reorganization by the Truman Administration, the Grazing Service was merged with the General Land Office to become the Bureau of Land Management."
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 15, 2014 - 11:14am PT
Why did people from WY need to drive to southern NV with their guns?


Probably because they perceived that the BLM was going to kill some Bundys if they didn't. Police do shoot people in America for no just cause you know. They were also asserting their right to free speech and to bear arms as a matter of principle.

You don't have to agree with someone to try to understand where they're coming from.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 15, 2014 - 11:21am PT
Probably because they perceived that the BLM was going to kill some Bundys if they didn't.

1000% cowshit! All the BLM was going to do was remove ILLEGAL cattle from BLM land. The armed militia came to prevent the BLM from removing the illegal cattle, plain and simple... and they were willing to use violence if they had to. They came to defend CRIMINALS.

The rest is Fux News right wing hysterical bullshit feeding on the emotions of idiots... and you fell for it. Pathetic.

“I’ve got a shotgun,” she said. “It’s loaded and I know how to use it. We’re ready to do what we have to do, but we’d rather win this in the court of public opinion.” - July 2013

Right... because right and wrong should be determined by guns or public opinion. Pathetic.
WBraun

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 11:21am PT
Jan -- "You don't have to agree with someone to try to understand where they're coming from."

This exactly how an intelligent person "sees" these things.

Then the radical screwball fools on this site immediately try throw that person into the same bucket.

Bruce and mechrist take a vacation together we know you're gay.

You need to learn to listen more and post less .....
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 15, 2014 - 11:23am PT
Jan wrote: Probably because they perceived that the BLM was going to kill some Bundys if they didn't.


Weak sauce..just an excuse for these folks to flex their metal against the big, bad government.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 15, 2014 - 11:28am PT
Werner wrote: Bruce and mechrist take a vacation together we know you're gay.


Are you really that f*#k up Werner?
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Apr 15, 2014 - 11:29am PT
Wes speaks the truth, and the rest of the nation continues to argue about irrelevant things. It goes to show that the majority of Americans are really dumb.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 15, 2014 - 11:30am PT
Bruce is nailing you folks and just can't seem to digest what he is saying.

Laws change..it happens all the time.
WBraun

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 11:34am PT
Jan specifically said: She understands how they (Bundy and militia) are thinking and didn't agree with their actions.

That was all.

You nutcase then try to frame her into the Bundy and miltia actions.

You are the stupid the screwballs ....
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 15, 2014 - 11:36am PT
Bruce,

My values are not the same as the people who showed up in Nevada, but I understand them and I think the BLM while created for a good reason, often over extends its authority and is subject to corruption.

A deeper issue here, which nobody wants to address, is how to change outmoded institutions enshrined in a Constitution that is regarded as sacred for various reasons. We can't even get rid of the electoral college, let alone the right for any fool to bear arms.
kpinwalla2

Social climber
WA
Apr 15, 2014 - 11:44am PT
This photo shot near City of Rocks a few years ago. Say no more...
Sanskara

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 11:44am PT
No screwballs bring guns to a protest.

Screwballs think they are better than people with whom they do not share the same pigment of skin.

Screwballs think somehow if you have a penis vrs a vagina you are more capable or entitled.

Screwballs think that if you choose to love another person of the same sex you are bad..

Screwballs think their opinions are the only ones that count.

Screwballs are willing to hurt and or kill others to see that their ideals are enforced..

Ron, Blue Cheif and Werner are screwballs in the purest sense but that's clear to see for anyone who is not a screwball.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 15, 2014 - 11:44am PT
Then you specifically stated...

This exactly how an intelligent person "sees" these things.

Then the radical screwball fools on this site immediately try throw that person into the same bucket.

Bruce and mechrist take a vacation together we know you're gay.

You need to learn to listen more and post less .....



Werner why don't you ever specifically tell the frothing whackos of the right wing to STFU?
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 15, 2014 - 11:54am PT
Screwballs think their opinions are the only one's that count...

I guess that Bruce, Sanskara, Philo, and a host of others here fit that mold, too?
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 15, 2014 - 11:58am PT
Careful there Dingus, I was invited to join the riflery team at the University of Colorado years ago. I decided to go climbing with Layton Kor instead.My mother always thought the safer choice would have been to stick with the guns.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 11:58am PT
Like I said earlier, it's already game over for Bundy.

Undoubtedly, the Feds are doing everything possible to seize his bank accounts and ask the court to hold him in contempt.

He will never be able to sell those cows, or acquire new ones on that property.

He has lost, he's just too stupid to realize it.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 11:59am PT
No Broke,

But we do not feel the need to force our beliefs upon others like the right. We believe in equal rights and choice equal is the magic word!

You don't want to have an abortion don't f*#king have one.

You don't want to marry a man don't marry one.

You don't want to sit next to a black man, don't ride the f*#king bus!

But don't tell me that the black man should not be able to ride the bus just cuz you feel threatened by him. And think you are more entitled or important...

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:01pm PT
The Dann's NEVER paid any grazing fees for over 110 years prior to the BLM confiscating all their stock and taking the land away from them. They were on 40 Million acres of the Gov't's property.

I don't know who the Dann's are or how they are related to the Bundy's. Like I said, tell us a bit more about this new strawman of yours and we can discuss it.

If the cattle were on 40 million acres of gov't property and the Dann's NEVER paid any grazing fees... OF COURSE THEIR STOCK WAS CONFISCATED... they were grazing illegally. duh.
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:02pm PT
For the love of Buddha I've read this whole escapade over the hours as the moon rose and set and you all went to bed and woke up....(yes I have no life stuck here in Delhi land), butt I gotta say two things and I know none of ya give a rats azz though now that dingus has shown up with the Wild West it gets even more interesting...

I gotta go with the two 'nut jobs' here.

Funny though how chief keeps repeating himself ' cuz everyone is ignoring him so he keeps the tick going....

Bruce has made many valid points as does his 'gay' buddy Weschrist ( really WB... You're better than that right?) Certainly some deep issues worth contemplating as a country if you care at all about it.

That rancher doesn't have a pot to pee in IMHO.
The government has some serious issues butt sheesh this one is pretty simple looking at it fairly objectively. I know right?

Okay, carry on with your love fest.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:03pm PT
I agree dirtbag.Of course that brings up the question of why the BLM couldn't have done that in the first place instead of showing up with machine guns, snipers, and dogs?
WBraun

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:04pm PT
Philo

I let them say their spiel.

They automatically incriminate themselves and there is no argument to made.

But you people are frothing at the mouth all day long with your ridiculous posts at what is obviously obvious from them all along.

The right wing nutcases are easy to ignore.

I made that stupid gay comment on purpose and immediately revealed how you fools like to run with something to spin it into something it never is.

Another easy thing to do to show how stupid some of you people really are.

It's total waste of time for sure.

You guys can put another 100 posts today saying same thing all over again as you did yesterday.

I was happy to see Jan get into this as she's a really intelligent person.

Brokedown brings some real life experience to this also.

dirtbag

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:05pm PT
Well that's an interesting question Jan.
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:08pm PT
Actually if you "listen closely" many of you have made some good points.

But omg a campfire is so much more personal:-)
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:09pm PT
OK Werner I'll play.
I throughly understand your point about Jan's comments. She doesn't have to agree with them to understand their motivation. Understanding motivation does not equate to acceptance or approval. The tribe went on a mini rampage thinking she was defending the Bundy Bunch.
I get it. The same thing happened to me when I tried to explain the motivation of Palestinian suicide bombers. I don't agree with that abhorrent tactic but I do understand the motivation. Well that got me blasted pretty bad. I was accused of being a Jew hater anti semite terrorist lover. Hell some of the ST wrongwingers were saying the problems in the Middle East were because of me. Well that was a stretch of imagination from the fetid minds of Conservatives.

So I get it, Jan understands but doesn't agree or support the vigilante mob mentality of the American West. No guilt by association.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:09pm PT
you can't control Nevada like it's bay area.

Nobody is trying to control Nevada like it's the Bay Area. Bundy refused to pay grazing fees on public land for over 2 decades despite multiple court orders. For fuksakes you hyperbolizing moran, pull your head out, you need some air.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:10pm PT
So Mr Rancher calls in his homies and the guvmint goes limper than a 16 year old
on a date with his girl and her mom. They do that here in da hood and they
call in the National Guard. Does this mean there's a double standard?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:19pm PT
How stupid are you Chuff n Huff? You keep posting the same mindless drivel like it's Gospel despite the FACTS you have been shown repeatedly.
Maggie's Drawers man you don't have a single valid point.
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:23pm PT
Ron siting and I'm on a political thread.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:26pm PT
This thread keeps getting more entertaining.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:30pm PT
Hey Rong tell us about how those brave and patriotic manly men used the women and children as human shields.
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:30pm PT
My brother just told me about a friend of his that grew up on a ranch in Grand County CO. It was bought by a family that let him caretake for the last 40 years. When the lady died that owned it was sold and going to be "developed". He decided not to live rather than be off the ranch. I sympathy for those in this situation. Many of the ranchers are just living day to day and those that take over have billions. Not sure what the answer is.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:31pm PT
What your seeing is the START of a nation that was founded on the very same actions expressed at Bunkerville last week.

ah, no

sorry to see you back, you're making even less sense than before your brief hiatus

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:33pm PT



Question:

say aye anyone who actually reads chuff posts




Rarely since he usually re-posts the same crap ad nausem. But I am a bit surprised that Chuffster isn't beside himself with joy for all the military toys being engaged. He is so in to the projection of American military power that he ought to be cheerleading for the Feds. Seems like he should lap this sh#t up. Why is he so opposed in this case.
Is it because there are not any brown skin folks to kill?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:40pm PT
^^^Breaker, breaker 19 That would be a big ol NO good buddy.
Unless those laws are used against peaceful hippie protesters or non-whites.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:43pm PT
Chuff do you understand the concept of a "broken record"
Or are you just being a typical Repugnicant dipshit believing if you repeat a lie often enough it will magically become truth.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:44pm PT
In all of my actions involving arrests or prosecutions, i never needed canine units, nor squads of heavily armed forces behind me. In fact in all but one incident i acted solo.

Just wondering how many times Ranger Ron faced armed militias when he was doing his Andy Griffith routine
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:44pm PT
Nothing butt mindless anarchists.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:45pm PT
Werner,

Buddy's argument does not hold water plain for all to see except for the extreme right wing crowd the has an agenda all it's own to fight for much like the left. The difference is we fight for equality not separation.

I think the left continues to harp on the rights lack of tolerance for others beliefs as lack of tolerance and hate directly correlates when we start talking about the bigger issues. The left does not bring hate inequality and ugliness to the table. The left bring equality fairness and tolerance for everyone even those whom they do not see eye to eye with "yup even you righties"!

When making decisions for the masses a diverse and ever changing demographic and population of people I think tolerance, compassion and understanding are pretty fundamental traits one must be able to bring to the table. Otherwise the rules and laws are being made for one sector of the population. Yeah I know the right would like to be the majority and the laws to be suited solely to them but you are only 49% of the population get it ;)

So the right argues they don't want to pay for the left to have free access to contraception. Ok fine I get it really I do who does want to pay for the other guy. The fact is just as many of us on the left can say I don't want to pay the inflated cost of a health care system that caters to and is built around some fat f*#k red neck being overweight or obsess and all the related diseases that come with it. The fact is you don't hear us bitch about the petty details with regard to inflated health care cost because many American want to drink and smoke instead of take "PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY" for them self and their health. You don't hear us birch about those that just prefer take a pill developed on the backs of dollars spent on inflated healthcare cost by those whom do take personal responsibility for their health. No we accept that that is just the way it is that somehow someway everyone has to be cared for. You can't have your cake and eat it to that is day one stuff that most of us all figured out long ago.

The facts are we all have to tolerate each other. Taking the right for this or that away from the other just because it is our personal belief system will never work and that is not America. The right does not tolerate others ideas or ways of life. The right wants what they want to be marshal law. The left is willing to sit down and find something that works for all involved but that is next to impossible with the right as bigoted close minded people just can't see how close minded they are.

When you use words like gay, c#&%, and or any other derogatory slang it just reinforces that your perspective is based in hate and lack of tolerance for others and that you poses about zero intellect. Why would anyone for one second feel you should be considered when making decisions that involve the masses.

Get it ;)
John M

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:45pm PT
Bruce-

An internet forum is where people are supposed to have a reasonable discourse, a standard sadly lacking much of the time. You however, are trying to turn it into a courtroom with you as the prosecutor and people who have different experiences and views as the accused in the witness box. That's why people are annoyed with you. Don't think that because we don't call you out on it, that we don't observe your smug self righteousness. You are as draped in the Canadian flag as any American militia is in the U.S. flag. I know because I visit family there frequently and I have been subjected to your tactics many times.

Bingo!

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:50pm PT
America... love it or FUKING LEAVE IT.

You don't like the laws here... move to Mexico or Canada or whatever.

Remember when you idiots espoused that solution for those of us who PEACEFULLY protested an unjust war?

You want to FIGHT for this country? You WILL lose.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:51pm PT
Tioga,

Because you are a close minded one way bigot!

And need I remind only 49% of the population and a aging and dwindling one at that.

Math man math ;)

dirtbag

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:51pm PT
Tioga you're really weird.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 12:55pm PT
Dirt you call that weird,

I call these guys scary and a threat to sane civilized law abiding people. These are the people that raise up kids that when they loose their minds shoot up schools and blow up buildings,..
Todd Townsend

Social climber
Bishop, CA
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:01pm PT
So the big, tough militia guys were just planning to hide behind the women once the bullets started flying?

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Typical men.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:02pm PT
Jan you are wrong with the Canadian gun laws bear story. Plain wrong. Your relative should have fixed it herself. Could have. Just like my neighbours have 12 times. We are allowed to have a loaded firearm unlocked by the door when we live in the busy and if you are far enough out, a big handgun to keep bears at bay. But the rest of your discourse is interesting.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:02pm PT
Cowboys got their panties in a bunch.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:03pm PT
I'm surprised none of these militia guys wrapped themselves in the flag so that when they are shot, tased or sprayed the images go viral. I guess shooting a woman and child would work too.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:05pm PT
Peaceful protests are great to a point. Perhaps that point has been reached. This isn't about cows and turtles and grazing fees. That's not why 1000+ people drove to Nevada.

Eventually there comes a tipping point and we're approaching that. The frogs are starting to boil.

Unfortunately unorganized men and women civilians with rifles can and will be cut down by forces trained to do just that.

The problem with "militia" units around the country is at least 1/2 are probably federal or state agents themselves. It's the best way to meet your government agents! So if things do take a violent turn there will be no unit cohesion. No communications. No chance.

But the people will learn from these mistakes. Once that line has been crossed IMO there is very little a government can do to contain it.

fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:09pm PT
This is the future plan they have for National Forest and BLM lands (Agenda 21, etc).

Bullsh*t. Prove it.

Fear you sound like you want some kind of violent uprising. That true?
WBraun

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:10pm PT
Intelligent post by Fear

Unintelligent immediate knee jerk over reaction by fluffy ....
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:13pm PT
Internet tough guys and know it alls out in force today on Supertopo.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:13pm PT
And Braun with yet another snarky meaningless comment
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:17pm PT
I'm going to relate a real world experience that never made much in the way of headlines, but it DOES involve the BLM and one of my neighbors.
It serves to illustrate my total lack of regard for the BLM. I'm not sure of the dates involved but it occurred sometime in the 1996 to 2000 time window.

The gentleman involved was Rory Cross, who at the time lived around 10 miles up the road from me at the end of the pavement. At the time he owned something like 27,000 deeded acres with substantial BLM and Forest Service grazing leases for summer pasture, and ran ~ 1,200 head of livestock. He was scrupulous in paying his fees, and took great pains to avoid overgrazing the allotments. In the Fall, he had approximately 500 steers on the leased grazing, and took portable corral panels up to the high country along with his ranch hands and horses to do the roundup and remove his animals to his own deeded lands for subsequent sale. It took 3 days of hard riding through some steep and difficult terrain to complete the roundup, but the 500 head were all in temporary corrals awaiting some 18 wheeler cattle trucks for transport. The BLM had been monitoring the entire proceedings from the air with a helicopter. For what reason I can't figure out, the BLM pilot decided to "buzz" the camp and the corrals.

Needless to say, the results were not pretty. The cattle all panicked, tore down the corrals and scattered over a 15 square mile area. Mr. Cross was livid, to say the least. He grabbed an AR 15, jumped into his pickup truck and drove to the BLM base camp a few miles away.

The exchange was heated, and Mr. Cross informed the BLM that if they ever did something that stupid again he would shoot them. Fast forward a day or 2; the FBI showed up and arrested Mr. Cross, who was quickly released on his own recognizance. Why was he so pissed, you might ask? He's spent 3 days riding around the hills on horses and paying 6 cowboys to work for him; that was all lost; and running or stampeding cattle caused several to be fatally injured, while the others were stressed and many became ill; not to mention the weight lost that is what is purchased by the cattle buyers in the livestock auctions. On top of that he subsequently needed to hire a top notch law firm to defend him in court. he had "threatened a Federal officer," was the charge. After losing $500,000 as a result of being buzzed and the consequences evolving from the follow up incident, the BLM continued harassing Mr. Cross.

What they had not counted on: Mr. Cross was in addition to being one of the largest ranchers in Wyoming, happened to be the Speaker of the Wyoming Legislature and was very well connected politically. To deal with the BLM he finally called Bob Dole, at that time Senate majority leader. The BLM receive a notice from the Senator that their appropriation for the next year's budget had encountered some problems, but it could probably be resolved. After which there were no more problems. This is, to the best of my recollections, the exact story. How do I know all this? Mr. Cross and I have shared lots of good Scotch together, and his brother was my next door neighbor.

This all happened before the Militarization of the BLM and other agencies, which began on GWB's watch, but has been ongoing unabated through the BHO presidency.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:20pm PT
he had "threatened a Federal officer," was the charge

Which he did. Man fu ck the BLM but actions have consequences. Can't just go around threatening to shoot people grow the fu ck up.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:25pm PT
Eventually there comes a tipping point and we're approaching that. The frogs are starting to boil.

Because of the Affordable Care Act? Or because we have a black president?

Honestly, how is this a tipping point? The court orders started in 1998. Several attempts have been made to remove the cattle, as early as 2002. Every time the LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS have been met with threats of violence.

You all need to wake the fuk up. The Fux at Faux and Co are using your stupidity to try and stir violence. This situation does not call for violent outrage on the part of SANE US citizens. Bundy's broke the law, repeatedly. They are FAR outside the VERY REASONABLE laws that govern our society. There is no gray area here... it ain't their land... they have grazing PRIVILEGES as long as they pay the fees... they are criminals... and you support the use of violence to defend their criminal actions.

Fuking pathetic mindless bullsh#t.


The exchange was heated, and Mr. Cross informed the BLM that if they ever did something that stupid again he would shoot them.

Geez, it isn't like threatening to shoot someone is a crime or anything... derp
dirtbag

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:30pm PT
Ooooooo..."Agenda 21"....
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:45pm PT
The "news article" was "sanitized" somewhat. I also know a few of the cowboys who were his ranch hands at the time, or who were neighbors helping out.

The assault and battery charges were brought by a Canadian truck driver hauling Canadian cattle to Denver. Not a popular thing to do those days, especially when the economy really sucked.

Rory subsequently sold his Wyoming ranch and moved to Nebraska---where there was no interaction with the BLM.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:49pm PT
the citizens were armed for self defense to avoid another Waco or Ruby Ridge.[/quote
Let's tease that one out a bit.
At Waco, they were given EVERY opportunity to surrender. They were abusing children. The Feds let it get out of control on both sides.
Ruby Ridge was a Fed fkkk up plain and simple. However, the Feds had been trying to negotiate Randy Weaver's surrender (on firearms charges) from Mar until Oct 1991 when the firefight broke out. Weaver had plenty of chances to avoid conflict. He even had a court appointed attorney but Weaver wouldn't meet with him. ATF made a lot of administrative mistakes that might have avoided the shootout. But like Bundy, Weaver had every opportunity for due process.

At the Waco disaster, there is plenty of blame to go around on both sides. However, the (Republican Senator) Danforth report, November 2000 (commissioned by Atty Gen. Janet Reno) debunks most of the sensationalist claims of FBI violence.
the Special Counsel was directed to investigate charges that government agents started or spread the fire at the Mount Carmel complex, directed gunfire at the Branch Davidians, and unlawfully employed the armed forces of the United States. A yearlong investigation ensued, during which the Office of the Special Counsel interviewed 1,001 witnesses, reviewed over 2.3 million pages of documents, and examined thousands of pounds of physical evidence.
.
...Special Counsel Danforth concluded that the allegations were meritless
The report does call into question a lot of the tactics of the FBI
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege

At Ruby Ridge the agents were hidden in the woods and shot first (killing Weaver's dog). Then Weaver's buddy shot and killed an FBI agent. It all went to pieces after that.
At Bunkerville the Feds were out in the open and didn't shoot.

At Waco the siege went on for 51 days. The Branch Davidians were never going to surrender and they had a large number of children inside. They had an arsenal of heavy weaponry ...AK47s, AR15s modified for auto fire, 50 cal rifles and much more. 1.9 million rounds of ammo. Rifle grenades, bullet proof vests.

There are no meaningful comparisons between Bunkerville and Ruby Ridge-Waco (which were indeed human tragedies) except the "victims" refused the lawful authority of the United States.....for extended periods of time.
Not a shot was fired at Bunkerville. Given Bundy and his "militia" persistently refused the authority of the United States and the history of Ruby Ridge and Waco the Federal agents were right to be armed.
So the Feds have learned something over the past 20 years. They're not ENTIRELY stupid. They WILL get their man, just not this week.
(Is it entirely a coincidence that Bundy stopped paying his fees shortly after Ruby Ridge?)
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:53pm PT
Correction to the above: it was not Weaver's "buddy" but his SON, who was subsequently killed by Federal agents. Weaver's wife Vicky was also shot and killed by Lon Horiuchi, an FBI sbiper.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:56pm PT
The "news article" was "sanitized" somewhat.

Right. Well, they can't all be as fair and balanced as Fux News.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:04pm PT
For all he knew at the time the pilot spilled hot coffee in his lap and and dropped the stick

Stick? That's silly. Everyone knows helichopters are flown with steering wheels... the internet says so.

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:17pm PT
Biggest difference between the Dann and Bundy case (because I'm bored and sick of seeing chuff post the same crap over and over and over)...

The Shoshone actually owned the land at one point.

The Bundy's NEVER owned the land they were using... NEVER EVER.

Two very different situations. Why didn't the Militia come to protect the Danns? Not white enough to qualify for Militia protection?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:19pm PT
Mr. Cross was in addition to being one of the largest ranchers in Wyoming, happened to be the Speaker of the Wyoming Legislature and was very well connected politically. To deal with the BLM he finally called Bob Dole, at that time Senate majority leader.
Mr. Cross informed the BLM that if they ever did something that stupid again he would shoot them. Fast forward a day or 2; the FBI showed up and arrested Mr. Cross
What? The FBI had the temerity to arrest poor ole victim Cross for threatening the life of a Federal agent?
So to "deal with the BLM" he called on his buddy the US Senate majority leader?
good ole political cronyism trumps law and order every time. Don't go messing with one of the biggest cattle ranchers in Wyoming is all I get from this.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:19pm PT
Cowboys and Indians, mechrist.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:20pm PT
couch, you trust people you have never met to defend a criminal? To protect those with no legal claim to the land from the rightful owners? nice. Viva la Raza!


God bless America. Bye bye SoCal, AZ, NM, and Texas...
dirtbag

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:23pm PT
I trust mob rule.

God bless the hillbillies.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:30pm PT
it was not Weaver's "buddy" but his SON, who was subsequently killed by Federal agents
His son was killed after his brother had killed one of the FBI agents.
Yeah, I'd be pissed too if someone shot my dog. I sure has he** wouldn't be stupid enough to then kill an FBI agent.
It was in the woods and the two brothers were together. They were both fair targets.

SON not "buddy" correction noted. You will also note that I said the Feds really f**ed it up.

Ruby Ridge and Waco are tragic examples what happens when people think they can openly defy the Law. The Weavers were armed and ready to confront the Feds. Waco may or may not have been deliberate suicide/mass murder.
Violence was avoided at Bunkerville for which I am glad. I'm not entirely sure this will turn out to be a good thing in the long run.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:34pm PT
Weschrist writes:

"The Shoshone actually owned the land at one point."




I thought the Indians didn't believe in land ownership.

Were the Shoshone different? Did they have a system of property rights?
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:35pm PT
Bruce-

I can understand why you would question Rory's actions, but after being out in the boonies on horseback for 3 days, hot, sore, tired as hell, he overreacted a bit. My approach would have been less confrontational. As a pilot myself, there's no way it was "coffee spilled in the lap." One simply does not operate at low altitude in a Bell Jet Ranger with a coffee cup in the hand, it takes both hands to fly one in low altitude turbulence, and one simply cannot tolerate that sort of distraction. A helo requires complete attention to 3 axes of control compared to fixed wings' 2. I don't fly helos.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:43pm PT
HT-

I was simply correcting the information posted to a "reality check." The two agents were not FBI, either; U.S. Marshal's Service, not wearing anything but camo, nothing to identify them as LEOs. Just shot a dog on private posted property, and were armed. That's why the Weavers were acquitted in a Court of Law. The incident was so blatant at the time that the #1 Criminal Defense attorney in the country took their case pro bono. Gerry Spence was outraged. The State of Idaho subsequently attempted prosecution of the FBI sniper who killed Vicky Weaver while nursing her infant daughter.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:44pm PT
Ah, now I see. Big Government selling off government land to Big Money... all reported by Fux at Big News. The only thing left to do is show up armed to the hilt and defend government land from the government. Got it... genius!

Buy all the guns and ammo you can before Obama takes them away. Threaten federal agents with violence every chance you get. Stand up for your rights and don't be afraid to resist violently.

God bless America!

I'm almost willing to vote Repugnikunt so you anarchist idiots will STFU for 4 years.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:48pm PT
The Dann saga was NEVER on any news agency. None.

Exactly... because you right wing idiots didn't care... Snatch was in office starting unjustified wars and the Fux at Faux were busy sewing the seeds of Patriotism. But now that Obama is in office the only answer is a BLOODY REVOLUTION!

The sad thing is, the Danns had a leg to stand on. Their contention was legit. The Bundy's ain't got sh#t... yet idiots are willing to defend them with guns.

Get your guns and go watch Fux. It will all be over soon enough.
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:49pm PT

^ This goes well with this v





[Click to View YouTube Video]
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:59pm PT
You realize Bundy is a Mormon too, right? Which has even less to do with this situation than the Danns. Good job... nothing goes better with strawmen than fresh red herring.

So fuking what? Reid is corrupt? OMG, a corrupt politician!?!?! Best get your guns... this is Merkin territory!
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Apr 15, 2014 - 03:05pm PT
Time for a revolvolution

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 15, 2014 - 03:06pm PT
U.S. Marshal's Service, not wearing anything but camo, nothing to identify them as LEOs. Just shot a dog on private posted property, and were armed.
Correction noted again, yes they were USMS.
Yes, the agents should have been in standard uniform. Yes, they should have attempted to arrest Weaver openly (with major backup).
Let me say more clearly, the Feds fued this one up. I am not claiming the Weavers had it coming to them. I am saying that this sht happens when armed citizens think they can confront Federal agents. Vicki Weaver was very sadly "collateral damage", killed by a bullet that passed through her husband.
...1994 Ruby Ridge Task Force Report and the public 1995 Senate subcommittee report on Ruby Ridge criticized the rules of engagement as unconstitutional.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 15, 2014 - 03:10pm PT
Mechrist, you've got to turn off the TV and maybe try to think a little more critically. You're stuck in the fabricated lies and mythology of Blue vs. Red. There really is no difference anymore.

The puppet currently in place is merely an anchorman for the regime and reads the teleprompter. He's no different than the last puppet, albeit this one is not retarded which makes him all the more culpable.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 15, 2014 - 03:11pm PT

There I just gave you your day back.

Bet you won't stop typing though......

Well, you can lead a fool to water but...or there's a sayin' in Tennesee and Texas Fool me once shame on..shame on..fool me...YOU CAIN'T GET FOOLED AGAIN.

Funny, I got up this am, like 950 posts. Had a cup of joe, read the NYT...1000, went out for a 15 mile spin on the road bike, come back 1100. I think about half of em are Huff-n-Chuff posting the same damn thing over and over about some other random cattle ranching event. Who the hell are the "Danns"? And why are you Huffin' and Chuffin' about em?

Accept Dingus's gift and go fishin or something. I'm having lunch then headed out to boulder. Breakfast, cup o Peets, NYT, road ride, bouldering, hot shower, sockeye salmon for dinner. That's a pretty good day...and it didn't once involve threating my local law enforcement with any of my firearms while they were doing their legal duties of enforcing the law.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 15, 2014 - 03:14pm PT
did Bundy end up paying his back grazing fees?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 15, 2014 - 03:15pm PT
I've seen you put that same thing out there before mechist. Pretty damned racist of you Mechrist to say
"couch, you trust people you have never met to defend a criminal? To protect those with no legal claim to the land from the rightful owners? nice. Viva la Raza!"

And then post a photo of some young Mexican males. The answer is yes.



And Bruce, the "violence" as you call it, was instigated by the BLM. They showed up to act out violently, and it rolled from there.

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 15, 2014 - 03:15pm PT
he People of the Nevada have had enough of this thief.

Which is, of course, why he was re-elected. Derp.

If by "People of Nevada" you mean McVeigh-esque fuktard wingnut interlopers from surrounding states, numbering in the couple dozen, then sure...they've had enough..enough arsenic and mercury in their water supply judging by the level of derp issuing forth.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 15, 2014 - 03:23pm PT
Then in 1973, the Gov't came and told them to get their livestock off "their land". That they had no rights to it. None.

So where was the Militia? Too brown? Where was Reid in 1973? Why do the people of NV keep electing Reid? Looks to me like he lost ONCE back in 1974. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_history_of_Harry_Reid


I agree 100% that Native Americans have been fuked by the US government. Which has NOTHING at all to do with Bundy.

the "violence" as you call it, was instigated by the BLM. They showed up to act out violently, and it rolled from there.

You really have no clue about the history of the Bundy's dealings with the BLM.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 15, 2014 - 03:49pm PT
Now this is all about that fascist Reid?

I thought it was about right to honey boo boo marathons and big gulps
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 15, 2014 - 03:49pm PT
And then post a photo of some young Mexican males. The answer is yes.

Then why all the hysteria when the Black Panthers with billy clubs show up at voting booths?

This is about solar panels, Reid, Mormons, oil, minerals, Homesteading, Native Americans, 2nd Amendment rights, fascists, and cows.

In summary, if you are white, hate the government, trespass despite multiple court orders, and threaten violence against government officials on multiple occasions you are a hero who deserves the protection of an armed militia. If you are brown someone might hear about your struggles in a few decades... but only when the issue can be tied to the trials and tribulations of a cowboy.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 03:50pm PT
That little weasel Reid is behind all of this. Mark my word.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 15, 2014 - 03:53pm PT
Obama's birth certificate!
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 15, 2014 - 03:53pm PT
Mechrist said:
"Then why all the hysteria when the Black Panthers with billy clubs show up at voting booths?"

Got a link? I don't know what that means. Black Panthers? Who is talking voting booths and black panthers? What is that in reference too?

I answered your question regarding trusting my fellow citizens and get:
"Then why all the hysteria when the Black Panthers with billy clubs show up at voting booths?

This is about solar panels, Reid, Mormons, oil, minerals, Homesteading, Native Americans, 2nd Amendment rights, fascists, and cows.

In summary, if you are white, hate the government, trespass despite multiple court orders, and threaten violence against government officials on multiple occasions you are a hero who deserves the protection of an armed militia. If you are brown someone might hear about your struggles in a few decades... but only when the issue can be tied to the trials and tribulations of a cowboy."

Start a new topic on the hysteria if you want too. I don't speak for you, nor for the people you think you are targeting with that post I think.....Not sure what you were responding too nor your point. I can say with some assurance that as a group I generally trust the people, yes, that includes you and those Mexican looking guys you posted a photo of, more than the government.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Apr 15, 2014 - 03:54pm PT
The Chief is the voice of Nevada...Just as Ron Anderson is the voice of San Francisco.
It all makes perfect sense.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 15, 2014 - 03:58pm PT
The BLM is the new Roman Empire

[Click to View YouTube Video]


Freaking looney toons - You can't make this shite up



http://news.msn.com/us/nevada-cattle-rancher-calls-on-local-sheriffs-to-join-his-cause
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 04:01pm PT
In the photo below Reid is shown secretly burying thousands of Desert Tortoises not 30 miles from the Bundy Ranch--- in order to clear land for a new Solyndra solar farm and underground Democrat Party Indian casino:


An IRS surveillance vehicle can be seen in the background.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 15, 2014 - 04:01pm PT
If you want to join the Burns Brigade you'd have to really hate the gubmint
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 04:10pm PT
Hey does anybody here know why the present Director of the BLM is Reid's former senior advisor?
I happen to think its just a happy coincidence myself.

Sheets

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Apr 15, 2014 - 04:13pm PT
Kill the COWS!!!!!!

That cracked me up, DMT.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 04:15pm PT
Just got an email update from the Burns Brigade.

There is a meeting tonight at the Carson Valley Denny's to discuss strategy for stopping solar farm. If anyone is interested in joining, you must be uneducated, unemployed and uninformed. Bonus points awarded for prior state or federal employment, or taking other forms of government assistance.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 04:16pm PT


As we revealed last Friday in an article that became the #1 news story in the world for 24 hours, the BLM specifically stated that it wanted Bundy and his cattle out of the area as part of the agency’s “regional mitigation strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone.”

The BLM attempted a cover-up by deleting documents exposing the plan from its web site,

The BLM was obviously attacked by that "bleed heart" thing.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 04:21pm PT
Of course, never mind the fact that this dispute began long before solar development was ever seriously considered, and has reached its present state after bundys appeals have wound down.

No, never mind that, it must be about Reid and his solar development cronies.

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 15, 2014 - 04:21pm PT
Everyone knows that a senator has the power to sell public lands all by him/herself.


Very basic law of the senate.

Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 04:25pm PT
Back in 2012, it was reported that Harry Reid’s son, Rory Reid, was the chief representative for a Chinese energy firm planning to build a $5-billion solar plant on public land in Laughlin, Nevada.

That Rory is a chip off the old block. Mark my word ...he'll be Senator one day.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 15, 2014 - 04:25pm PT
Harry Reid yesterday
“Well, it’s not over,” Reid, D-Nev., told KRNV-TV in Reno on Monday. “We can’t have an American people that violate the law and then just walk away from it. So it’s not over.”
What are the Bundyites doing to have the law changed? I mean besides posing for the cameras. Again I ask, where is the defense attorney taking the now notorious Bundy case to Appeals Court?
So how do the Bundyites justify violating the law? I mean besides denying the law applies to Bundy in particular.
Which laws would you teach your kids to disobey?
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 15, 2014 - 04:25pm PT

WHAT'S WRONG WITH THIS PHOTO?

Two men and one woman do not have a protective helmet (OSHA violation).

One woman, even though she has a helmet is not moving any dirt (slacker).

There is no way to identify the make nor the owner of the car (not a car, a tank).

Whilst the Native to Honky ratio looks good, there are only 25% women represented in this enterprise (bad form).






Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 15, 2014 - 04:28pm PT
^^^

Well gol durn it, that Reid is so sneaky and clandestine about it he dun had a photo op. DERP.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 15, 2014 - 04:36pm PT
All right
just to dampen the levity
Here's a good (truly fair and balanced) summary of the cattle wars since that wicked evil Desert Tortoise raised his pointy head.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/04/15/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-long-fight-between-cliven-bundy-and-the-federal-government/
This didn't just happen in the past week or so.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 04:38pm PT
“[Reid] and his oldest son, Rory, are both involved in an effort by a Chinese energy giant, ENN Energy Group, to build a $5 billion solar farm and panel manufacturing plant in the southern Nevada desert,” he wrote. “Reid has been one of the project’s most prominent advocates, helping recruit the company during a 2011 trip to China and applying his political muscle on behalf of the project in Nevada.”
“His son, a lawyer with a prominent Las Vegas firm that is representing ENN, helped it locate a 9,000-acre (3,600-hectare) desert site that it is buying well below appraised value from Clark County, where Rory Reid formerly chaired the county commission.”

Now I know why Reid is workin' so hard with that shovel. Dig that dirt...
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 15, 2014 - 04:58pm PT
Bundy is even ignorant of or just plain ignoring the Nevada state Constitution
But the Paramount Allegiance of every citizen is due to the Federal Government in the exercise of all its Constitutional powers as the same have been or may be defined by the Supreme Court of the United States;
The Constitution of the United States confers full power on the Federal Government to maintain and Perpetuate its existence, and whensoever any portion of the States, or people thereof attempt to secede from the Federal Union, or forcibly resist the Execution of its laws, the Federal Government may, by warrant of the Constitution, employ armed force in compelling obedience to its Authority.
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/04/the-irony-of-cliven-bundys-unconstitutional-stand/360587/

Why this specific language? It was 1863 and Nevada wanted to be certain the US understood Nevada was not going to secede.
This language remained in the Nevada Constitution when the official state Constitutional Convention ratified it in 1864. It's still there.

and the final paragraph in the article
It's doubtful even the Nevada Constitution will change their minds—if legal and constitutional arguments could persuade the militia movement, there might not be a militia movement.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 15, 2014 - 05:01pm PT
500,000 fewer hamburgers per year

“I’m sure most of the people being considered for his job graduated from a college. These people are the cause of the destruction of wildlife.”


Cliven Bundy's 37-year-old son is arrested for "refusing to disperse" and resisting arrest. He was released the following day. His face is covered with scratches from fighting the feds. Before he left the detention center, authorities gave him a tuna fish sandwich. "It wasn’t poison," he said "I just ate it.”

“Nevada Cattlemen’s Association does not feel it is in our best interest to interfere in the process of adjudication in this matter."


Some of Bundy's neighbors aren't impressed by his actions. "I feel that the rule of law supersedes armed militias coming in from all over the country to stand with a law-breaking rancher, which is what he is," one person told a local TV station.

“This isn’t about no turtles or cows.”

I DON'T KNOW, MAYBE IT WAS THE ROSES OR THE WILD HORSES.


Wild horse advocates are getting angrier, saying that the roaming cattle are ruining their habitats. Other scientists argue that the wild horses and cows alike are ruining habitats for other animals.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 15, 2014 - 05:21pm PT
Some of Bundy's neighbors aren't impressed by his actions.

"I feel that the rule of law supersedes armed militias coming in from all over the country to stand with a law-breaking rancher, which is what he is," one person told a local TV station.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 15, 2014 - 05:31pm PT
He's boxed himself into a tight corner. No good out for him. Pathetic in a way that he let his whacko political ideas overcome his common sense. Although it appears he is very lacking in the latter.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 15, 2014 - 05:39pm PT
Reid's Reich confiscated what little land he had and sold it to the Chinese to cover his delinquent grazing fees and fines.
Rankin

Social climber
Greensboro, North Carolina
Apr 15, 2014 - 05:42pm PT
This will not end well for the rancher. I just hope there is no blood shed.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 15, 2014 - 05:46pm PT
This nuttery is only good for one thing - Sean Hannity's ratings.

You deranged and ignorant right-wing extremists are doing everything you can to provoke a violent confrontation - one that likely ends with honest and hard working law enforcement personnel getting killed.

You are pathetic nutjobs hammering away on your keyboards from the safety of your padded bunkers, spreading ridiculous conspiracy theories only the most feeble-minded person could swallow.

Uggh, I need a shower just reading your crap.
overwatch

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 05:49pm PT
Quick somebody summarize 1100+ posts for undercling
dirtbag

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 05:49pm PT
Yep, he's already lost. His days of running cows are over.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 15, 2014 - 05:50pm PT
Yup. 160 acre watermelon farm and cattle grazing. Right on the Virgin River. Might be choice development property. Not that I like that idea.

A poignant article in the local rag 2 1/2 years ago
http://www.mesquitecitizen.com/viewnews.php?newsid=451&id=3

It's easy to forget this Bundy guy is a real human being with a real family.

DMT
I've gotta laugh at that last line. Or should I cry?
Mtnmun

Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
Apr 15, 2014 - 06:49pm PT
Beaver Cleaver town meeting to eradicate the citizen militia will be coming to the cowboy bar soon.
WBraun

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 07:03pm PT
According to the examiner.com

What happened to the Bundy’s and their cattle was completely ILLEGAL. Governor Sandoval publicly stated that the Bundy's PAID EVERYTHING......
it was Clark County WHO REFUSED TO CASH THE CHECKS.

Is this true?

http://www.examiner.com/article/board-of-land-management-savagely-tasered-and-slaughtered-cliven-bundy-s-cattle
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Apr 15, 2014 - 07:09pm PT
No Werner, The Examiner is a not journalism, it is a hoax. Glaring errors start with the title
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Apr 15, 2014 - 07:13pm PT
It appears Mr Bundy could have benefited from better legal cownsel.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 07:17pm PT
Update from the Burns Brigade

The rally has been moved to Applebees. Subjects up for discussion include Mexicans in Nevada, property laws from a non-lawyers perspective, and Taxidermy of Rodents.

Additionally, Ron Anderson has voted himself President, Vice-President, Secretary and Treasurer of the Burns Brigade. Donations, including food stamps, accepted at the door.
WBraun

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 07:25pm PT
DMT I don't read that rag at all ever.

I just happened to see that from Google search engine.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 15, 2014 - 07:25pm PT
Here's a status report on Harry Reid's major fundraiser and contributor:

fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 15, 2014 - 07:33pm PT
Pfft Harry Reid is a true patriot unlike those wannabe minutemen
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 15, 2014 - 07:41pm PT
OMG, someone found about about the tens of thousands of dollars Harvey donated to Harry!!! Are there no honest men left in politics?!?!
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 15, 2014 - 07:55pm PT
Where did this bird come from?


StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 15, 2014 - 08:31pm PT
Once the call went out there were a lot of empty bunkers and double-wides. Driving for miles to make another stand for the real America.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 15, 2014 - 08:34pm PT
Mr Kay,

It goes "1, 2, 3, 4, 5", not "1, 2, 3, 4, 3"
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 15, 2014 - 08:37pm PT
OMG, Chaz caught another typo. That guy is on FIRE!
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 15, 2014 - 08:53pm PT
This Bundy guy and his "militias" will definitely make it harder for Republicans in the next election. Not by a lot, but possibly enough to lose the Presidential election in 2016
Only Rand Paul will benefit, further splitting the GOP.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 15, 2014 - 09:01pm PT
Oh My! The Chief is no longer the angriest nerd on this thread.

Better thread than dead!

Guess I better show my credentials to the night shift.


I saw what I knew from his parked truck, was a BLM anthropologist and hiked up to him to say hello.

First words out of my mouth were: "Yew looking for arrowheads too?"

He looked up, saw my pistol on my hip, and said in a tone of deep wonder: "You've got a gun."

I replied, "This is Idaho, we all got guns, do you want to see the arrowhead I jest found? It's really nice."

He stepped back, and started weakly mumbling, while not looking at me, about "folks are not supposed to keep arrowheads."

I moved up and said, "no problem doooede, I just photograph them" and pulled out my digital camera.

It was a lot of fun.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 15, 2014 - 09:13pm PT
Apparently we need the militia to surround CMac's house and ensure HIS website conforms to the proper standards set forth by the ruling mob. I don't believe in domain name ownership anyhow... unless CMac got stupidtaco during the internet homesteading act of 190GORE.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Apr 15, 2014 - 09:14pm PT
so who got nuked and came back and started the anti mod thread that just got nuked?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Apr 15, 2014 - 09:20pm PT
BTW bruce. I explained it to you. does not mean that I agree with the actions or the retoric. I am not there, have not done any research on it and therefore do not know what really happened. I suspect that bundy is a dumb assed stuborn delousional SOB and that the govt is corrupt and heavy handed. buisness as usual;)
John M

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 09:26pm PT
we were arguing about whether daisy dukes qualify as short shorts or if they should have their own category.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Apr 15, 2014 - 09:28pm PT
You Wanted to know what the guns were for. I told you they were for killing critters and people that piss you off and you accused me of being a right winger..
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Apr 15, 2014 - 09:31pm PT
Did Ron A have the meltdown and get nuked?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Apr 15, 2014 - 09:32pm PT
Ron is still here.. Who was it?
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Apr 15, 2014 - 09:33pm PT
This thread just seemed to lose several posts. ....... I wonder what happened.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 09:34pm PT
It did..
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 15, 2014 - 10:05pm PT
DMT your above-the-fray non-sequitur pot shots are cracking me up. Keep up the good work.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 15, 2014 - 10:07pm PT
When the sovereign is lawless



The subjects soon follow.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 15, 2014 - 10:07pm PT
Well now!

A deep-subject for all of us.

The now-missing angry nerd posted just before my last post. It appears his questions about proactive ST management were adequately and rather quickly answered.

Sigh---------now we have to go back to "the Chief" being the most angry nerd on this thread!

How bout dem fuking Bundy starving cows!

Sanskara

climber
Apr 15, 2014 - 10:11pm PT
Hahahahhahahhahahnan this f*#king place is great!

anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Apr 15, 2014 - 10:12pm PT
zBrown: is that a grackle?
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 15, 2014 - 10:19pm PT
anita514 - I do not know, it was bried behind another photo upstream and I only saw it when I clicked to enlarge. credit is Bob D'Antonio - maybe we should ask him.


It is here.



Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 15, 2014 - 04:25pm PT

Here's a status report on Harry Reid's major fundraiser and contributor:

This is a "common grackle", so I'm thinking you got it right on barrelhead.




Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 15, 2014 - 10:42pm PT
Bruce! Glad you've been manning-up and prosing the right-wing nerds to a standstill.

I just had an old educational thought from a long-ago course I took, when my Forestry degree was not going to get me a cushy career with the U.S. Forest Service.

I then decided my new career was to teach High School Science.

So-------my really fun and really good Ed. Prof talked about how humans normally start out with the thoughts and beliefs of their parents and care-givers.



Then they progressed to having the thoughts and beliefs of their peer group.



He believed that as teachers, we were then supposed to take our students to where they could start having: “original thoughts,” and start thinking for themselves vs. parroting the thoughts of others.

Sigh! ---



It does appear that a number of poseurs on this thread have not reached the “original-thought” stage, and never will.

The gifted teacher also convinced me to find another career path than teaching. He was correct.

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 15, 2014 - 10:52pm PT
now we're getting into it!
please define "process of integrity"
How does Bundy's process meet up to the criteria?
Do the "militias" have any concept of integrity?
(I await a TGT answer to my last question)
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 15, 2014 - 11:17pm PT
Oh yeah
Book Of Mormon
yes, hilarious, foul mouthed and a not too far off the mark depiction of naive Mormon Missionary boys from the sticks thrown into the brutal complexities of the real world (not to mention bottled up adolescent male sexuality). I've known a few of them and even liked most of those.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 15, 2014 - 11:21pm PT
Jim! It appears you have defined this subect!

Bruce,

You have to choose between being a subject or an object. Once that's settled, definition is easy !
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 15, 2014 - 11:23pm PT
I object!
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:08am PT
So, the entire NV legislature, the Governor and local LEOs were acting on the side of the protesters as well.

So hold them all in contempt!

Bunch of idiots.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:26am PT
Hi to Ron A, again.

Bruce & Jim?

Speaking of your projected "Worst-Processes."

well lets reverse engineer it then. Have you got any worst processes?


It could be happening in Nevada.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:26am PT
In addition,, Sheriff Gilespi of Clark County did indeed order a stand down by the Feds.

Cletus the Clueless, weighing in with complete and utter bullsh#t, contradicted by the man he says "ordered" a stand down. Try again Cletus, Gilespi didn't "order" jack sh#t per his own words:

"I want to stress to all of you that as the sheriff of Clark County I cannot interfere with the Federal government when it is operating on Federal land," Gillespie said. "And because this is BLM property, it is in their jurisdiction.

DERP.
John M

climber
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:39am PT
no doubt those BLM enforcers were poorly trained and dipshits. That doesn't mean the guy has a case as far as his cows go.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:40am PT
This thread is pure comedy gold, a great respite from those annoying trip reports :)

If Bundy is the best case the rightwingers have for proving oppressive Federal action then I think we live in a very free society.

Bit of trivia, Nevada receives more in Federal tax benefits than they pay in Federal taxes. Makes them a welfare state, right?

crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:41am PT
Rong and others supporting Bundy and his fellow domestic terrorist make me wanna puke.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:44am PT
leave the real tasks to those that will do them

I guess somebody DOES have to greet the Wal Mart customers and sling camo at the local Cabelas. Have fun with your "tasks"...and cleanup on aisle nine, Anderson, chop chop now.

I am QUOTING THE MAN you assert "ordered" something. His words, not mine. Maybe you can google the word "quote" and figure out what the hell that means, since your corpse-glue and paint fume addled brain can't seem to comprehend that the man you claim "ordered" the feds, himself says he has no such authority.


Willie InyoAzz
-Former Vet
-Current Founder of the Cleti Education Brigade
-DD214. 8675309,Jenny
-Allergic to Stupid in 50 states


Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:53am PT
Whar's em biscuits?

Sanskara

climber
Apr 16, 2014 - 01:13am PT
John M you got that right about Nevada taxes and welfare state. Studies show that the majority of red states are actually receiving more federal funding than taxes they are actually paying.

Go figure would you imagine that, hard working liberals spending their hard earned dollars to take care of a bunch low class red neck cry babies. Who woulda thunk and we are ruining this country and we are the ones with our hands out. Nokay you might be able to sell that bullshit to your simple minded red neck brothers but the country on a whole is far from falling for it...

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/11/states-federal-taxes-spending-charts-maps
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Apr 16, 2014 - 01:15am PT
Do those idiots in nevada really not understand that federal law applies. Ron obviously doesn't, but he's dumber than the average Nevadan. And that's really saying something.
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Apr 16, 2014 - 01:34am PT
That mob scene of pro-Bundy cattle welfare recipients under the bridge reminded me of the story about the babushkas in Ukraine. I’ve not heard of the notion of downgrading a US state to a US territory, but this event begs the question.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Apr 16, 2014 - 01:49am PT
"...(even though I have nothing against the state of Nevada - I actually like it a lot - I just wanted to throw gasoline on the fire)"

Classic ST right there.

For a political thread this one sure is golden
nyuk yuk
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 16, 2014 - 08:18am PT
I have a hard time believing that any of you would under any other rational context support people like Bundy nor compare him favorably to Weaver or Koresh at all. But under these circumstanses as a means of defending your misconceptions about the 2nd Ammendment and your manipulated fears of tyrannical overreach of the Fed Govt you want to portray these criminals as true patriots. Supporting Bundy and defending Weaver & Koresh is only a small stumble away from glorifying Timothy McVeigh, another fine American patriot and US combat Vet.
Without all the hyperbole and drama I can't imagine many of you would actually see these sociopaths as great and nobel citizens. If we can't by process of law bring one randy rancher to accountability what chance will we have to go after crocked bankers and Billionaires?

Don't you think that if Obama and the Feds were the jack booted thugs you fear that he would have gotten all Putin on the mob? But no instead we have a stand down and reevaluation. You still have your guns and there are no FEMA camp internments. Get it?

You may want to defend Their cause célèbre on an idealogical stand point but let me ask this question to any who would answer.
With what you now know (real or imagined) about the character of these characters who among them would you want to see date or marry your Daughter, your Sister or your widowed/divorced Mother? Think about it.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 16, 2014 - 09:04am PT
This one is for the smoking duck.




fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 16, 2014 - 09:54am PT
Yep

Murika is the only place these dingbats could get away with this crap

ironic ain't it?
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:16am PT
Move away, nothing more to see here. Go back to your bunkers, white wingnuts, it's over. It now moves to the courtroom. Probably not a good place to bring your AR's. Stay in your trailer parks and go back to worrying about birth certificates and other nonsense.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:22am PT
Philo and Bruce nail it.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:27am PT
http://thesouthwestjournal.wordpress.com/2014/04/01/free-grazing-law-breaking-cliven-bundys-stand-against-the-government/
dirtbag

climber
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:35am PT
Lol...agenda 21.
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:35am PT
Ron
I worry about you.
Your posts have taken on a real "manifesto-like" tone.
Makes some biscuits buddy.

Edit
...and locker
Go climbing.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:37am PT
"I have a hard time believing that any of you would under any other rational context support people like Bundy nor compare him favorably to Weaver or Koresh at all. But under these circumstanses as a means of defending your misconceptions about the 2nd Ammendment and your manipulated fears of tyrannical overreach of the Fed Govt you want to portray these criminals as true patriots. Supporting Bundy and defending Weaver & Koresh is only a small stumble away from glorifying Timothy McVeigh, another fine American patriot and US combat Vet.
Without all the hyperbole and drama I can't imagine many of you would actually see these sociopaths as great and nobel citizens. If we can't by process of law bring one randy rancher to accountability what chance will we have to go after crocked bankers and Billionaires?"


Damn...that's very good, philo.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:44am PT
"Co-founder of the Burns Brigade"

Didn't they set a record for selling the most Girl Scout cookies?
WBraun

climber
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:49am PT
Ron Anderson

You really should read the article that Wade Icey posted.

It's extremely informative, excellent and also be sure to read comments section.

100 times better than all the hyperbole ranting in this thread.

http://thesouthwestjournal.wordpress.com/2014/04/01/free-grazing-law-breaking-cliven-bundys-stand-against-the-government/
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:50am PT
Oh Rong the mighty Oaf Creaper, lies have been pouring out of your pathetic pie hole since you first started posting on ST political threads.

You and these other troglodytes may want to see yourselves as "Minutemen" at Concorde but you are nothing more than tin pan 3rd world anarchists. You are not fighting a nobel or even legitimate cause here. The rest of US and the world see you as the musicians said "as a druken spoiled 15 year old waving a gun in their face".

Go fight FOR SOLAR and RENEWABLE energy. Go fight the big banks or the greedy billionaires corrupting the system. Go do something, anything that makes the world a better place. Arming for Armegeddon isn't helping.
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:54am PT
I've tried to give Ron the benefit of the doubt as much as possible over the last year or so.
He has at times added to discussions and, at least at the beginning showed remarkable restraint to the shite that he received.

However with that last post I have to acknowledge that he has truly gone nuts as so many here keep saying.

What IS your intention Ron with arming yourself and so many of your fellow Nevadians? Are you so far lost and delusional that you think that armed conflict is or will solve any of your problems?

As a "former" LEO I'd expect you had the integrity to see a lawful resolution to such disputes.
Arming yourself and others thinking this would solve your problems not to mention so many of the ones the rest of us face each and every day points to a world view lacking in common sense, empathy, and understanding of a basic civil society.

Sure blame it on the BLM. They have issues I'd be the first to acknowledge that but really this is your solution...

I'm sure you'll call me names and such. But really your way is a deadened street.

Good luck dude you're gonna need it.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:54am PT
Werner, I tried to find you and say hello Sunday when the chopper was lifting off from El Cap meadow on Sunday, but apparently you had just driven off. I was only there for a day, and it was a weird chance to bump into someone I knew.
Maybe next time.


Ron, if you don't read the article that Werner just linked above, you will truly be only selling ignorance in this discussion. That has been Federal land since 1844, long before Bunker and crew arrived. That has been upheld in numerous court decisions. Mr Bunker gave up his rights to even be in the conversation when he quit paying his measly fees.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:54am PT
"Go fight the big banks or the greedy billionaires corrupting the system. Go do something, anything that makes the world a better place. Arming for Armegeddon isn't helping."


Another gem.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:56am PT
No longer blah blah blah

Oh yeah what are you going to do about it? Wield guns against the various government agencies you rail against?

lol good luck with that. Bet anything you don't do sh*t other than post your batsh*t diatribes on a climbing forum.

and your manifesto needs some work, big sections of it are based on facts you made up out of the blue.
WBraun

climber
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:58am PT
That's a bummer Bruce (survival) it would have been cool to talk some good sh!t again ....
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Apr 16, 2014 - 11:02am PT
Thanks for the link Wade. One of the best, most informative articles I've read on this subject.




philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 16, 2014 - 11:05am PT
Oh Rong tough talk for a peashootin pantywaste.

Can't wait to see how Rong's bold predictions work out.

Hey Ron what about my 70+ year old mother in law who was thrown to the ground and threatened with a taser by an group of unofficial republican operatives during a political rally in Colorado Springs? All she was "guilty" of was wearing a Green Peace shirt to a parade.
During the Bush years peaceful unarmed protesters were regularly roughed up and thrown out of rallys. Now with Obama as president armed anarchists can freely show up toting assault rifles, wearing "water the tree of Liberty" shirts and carry posters with Gabby's picture in a Bull's eye. Where is the tyrannical overreach, where are the FEMA camps, gun round ups and mass internments??????

If you would care even a tenth as much about what happened to my Mother in Law and so many others during Bush's presidency -even though her voice was in opposition to your own- then you would have a shred of legitimacy. But you would only stand up for someone breaking the law and threatening violence against your own Government.

Carry on marching to the beat of your own drummer.



Great post DelhiDog.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 16, 2014 - 11:07am PT
The ST right wing nut bag clique seems to be rotating through one of its members at a time. One goes away and another that had gone away shows back up to take his post.

It's pretty funny like some kinda advanced red neck militia strategy of sorts. Put the woman up front, they will have o shoot the firs to get to us. Either they won't shoot em or if they do they will end up looking worse than us for shooting a bunch of brainwashed battered abused women.

Ron you are bat sh#t crazy!

I could smell it from a mile away the first few posts of yours I ever read. I knew right away this guy is certifiable and at any moment could fly off the handle, a danger to society!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 16, 2014 - 11:15am PT
Glanton, not sure who you are but you crack me up.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 16, 2014 - 11:17am PT
Locker Ron brings it on himself and he dishes out as much filth as anyone.
Same as the Chuffster who rails on the name callin'' Libtards while calling them all names.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 16, 2014 - 11:20am PT
i slipped yesterday, but brought my self back up to a standard ive imposed on myself.

The Burns Brigade demands a high level of sanctimony from its member!
Sanskara

climber
Apr 16, 2014 - 11:22am PT
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N0Wn3Eey6dY

Best i could do video links do not work?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 16, 2014 - 11:26am PT
Right on, Locker. One of my best friends is a Limbaugh-watching Repub but,
guess what, we get along fine by agreeing to disagree in a gentlemanly way.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 16, 2014 - 11:26am PT

Hey Ron, what would happen if I built my shed and garden on Forest Service land because I didn't think my lot was big enough... then had multiple court orders that told me to remove them... then threatened violence when the FS came to remove them? Would the militia show up to help me defend my right to use federal land for my own personal benefit too?
Sanskara

climber
Apr 16, 2014 - 11:27am PT
Ron gets ganged up because even without the use of profanity he spreads a hateful ugly bigoted mean and dangerous agenda.

Any responsible person with a drop of dignity would feel the need to push the bully back. Further with guys like Ron you gotta defend yourself as he is a danger to society..
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Apr 16, 2014 - 11:29am PT
FWIW I have never "ganged up" on Ron nor been a part of that.
There have certainly been many many times I've disagreed with him, but for the most part I've kept that to myself.

And 'delusional' as well as saying he has 'gone nuts' as a result of arming himself and others due to his perception of the matter at hand is not to me derogatory. My impressions are based solely on his posts. I see my comments simply as facts. What would you call it?

I would love to hear/read a sane response to my question of why this "arming" is going on and what objective he and his friends have. To respond with force and violence? Shoot to kill, wound, make a point...what?

Edit, cross posting as Ron posted I now see some of his/your thinking. Thanks, but...it still begs the question of arming for...what?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 16, 2014 - 11:34am PT
Tensions build as they did in the 60's. Just waiting for a lunatic a la Manson to interpret Justin Bieber lyrics the wrong way.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 16, 2014 - 11:34am PT
I think we've got a lot of "projection" going on here. I haven't (although I'm sure I'll be corrected) seen Ron be insane, hateful, bigoted, or as vile as most of the people posting in direct attacks against him...

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 16, 2014 - 11:35am PT
Federal Penitentiaries are serious places.....

That's where Mr. Bunker ought to be.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 16, 2014 - 11:39am PT
Locker,

I would say from much of your response you are one step away from joint the militia.

Same goes for anyone whom isn't disgraced by the ideas and stance of Ron, Blue, Chief, Chaz and the like...

Edit:

Joining but joint seems fitting also...
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Apr 16, 2014 - 11:39am PT
I know what Robert E. Lee said.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 16, 2014 - 11:44am PT


[Click to View YouTube Video]
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 16, 2014 - 11:50am PT
SANE response...

You left off the "batshit in" part.

Against mining tailings, but against solar power. Ever seen an appalchian mountain top mine process to get the coal that runs one of the prime power sources? Yeah. No tailings or water pollution happening there. DERP.

Claiming the purpose of enforcing the law on a deadbeat looney f*#ker who refuses to pay his fees or comply with legal court orders and claims not to recognize the authority of the federal govt on federal land, is to "run ranchers off the land in order to sell it off to foreign concerns."

Despite the fact that the land in question isn't, nor is it proposed to be, "sold off" to anyone. DERP.

"Militaristic tactics". Yeah, there's a saying - don't take a knife to a gunfight. Facing a bunch of armed wingnuts, you bet they went in with enough materiel to protect themselves. To do otherwise would be stupid.

Nothing but an ill-informed, foaming at the mouth hillbilly dipsh#t.
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Apr 16, 2014 - 11:50am PT
Hard to keep up with this thread.

Ron, thanks for sharing your beliefs- seriously.

Arming yourself and others still sounds crazy though.
A lot has been accomplished without that.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 16, 2014 - 11:52am PT
Locker, from what I can tell, Ron doesn't need an attorney yet.

Defending him seems to be your only take on these threads anymore.

What's your opinion about Mr. Bunker, Feds, BLM, endangered tortoises, illegal grazing and the like?
Sanskara

climber
Apr 16, 2014 - 11:53am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Seems like a bunch o this is going on in much of our great American west..
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Apr 16, 2014 - 11:56am PT
Survival, I think locker kind of answered that...
Check his response to this up above.
Golden I tell ya!

"I personally don't need that "Sane response" because I can pretty much guess what the gig is..."
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 16, 2014 - 11:56am PT
Ever notice how the Cleti Brigade always cite the name of the FBI sniper who smoked Weaver and his wife and friend?

Why is that?

Same reason they put out "Wanted" posters with the names and addresses of abortion doctors...hoping one of their more insane tribesmen will go and kill them. Has happened quite a bit in the abortion doc cases. And still these as#@&%es will post the FBI agents name at any excuse. I believe our resident f*#kstick "Brokedown", armchair lawyer, hobbyist cattleman did the same earlier in this shitshow of a thread. Despicable behavior, from despicable people.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 16, 2014 - 11:59am PT
Bruce Kay,

With the voice of logic and reason...

Not just some blow hard solely intent on imposing his ideals and beliefs...

Facts are a pretty important tiny weeny little detail with regard to all of this..
Sanskara

climber
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:03pm PT
Ok that's all good and fine but go prove it in a court of law. That is how we do things in Merca..

Acting like a bunch of thugs threatening others is not how we do things. Never have never will so keep dreaming!
Sanskara

climber
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:06pm PT
Tioga

The funny thing is I 100% agree with just about everything you state above.

I however do not believe guns and thuggery are the answer. Also the red neck image and agenda and approach most often taken by the anti government crowd is not doing itself any favors recruiting otherwise sane people over to its side..
Sanskara

climber
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:14pm PT
It's much better than many places one could have been born and forced to live Tioga.

Don't like the chemical buy organic, grow your own. Don't like the zoning laws move somewhere with more open space and that has looser zoning. Don't like the medication and healthcare f*#kery. Assume personal responsibility for you own health. Eat right exercise and avoid chemicals and medications and you probably won't end up on the meds or need the health care.

There are all kinds of options to avoid that of what we don't agree with in a relatively painless manner that does not involve armed conflict or revolting against the man..
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:15pm PT
The reason some of you don't recognize the despicability of postings by RonA, The Chief, TGT, Bluering and others is because you inherently agree with their perspective on social or political issues.
The reason those same some see such despicability in postings by myself and others is because they inherently disagree with our perspectives on social or political issues.



And Tioga as someone in the trades I can say without hesitation that I am all in favor of building codes and regulations, There is a reason Electricians pay the lowest insurance rates of any of the building trades, it's called the Electrical Code. Look into the value of not doing this...
or this


This is from Malcolm and Karen Daly's house and without hyperbole I have prevented their home from burning down by rewiring according to those damn codes.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:16pm PT
Many sociopaths are ;)
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:17pm PT
"If that is a troll he is fantastically convincing."
^ditto

Good night ya'll
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:29pm PT
This seemed realistic, but apparently knott.

"What worked and works for me,

I canceled all my accounts Facebook included. Started doing both yoga and meditating everyday. Limited my online time and replaced at least half of it with a book. I did this for 6-12 months solid. A step back really, I did not not log in I just did not post and I found something better o fill my time.

I then did my best to enact a new moral and ethic. Epiphany number one was all the time I had been previously spending on the Internet was nothing more than a giant waste of time I could spend doing something actually productive. But even worse was the amount of time I spent being aggravated hostile and but hurt cuz some dude or doodet on the other side of cyberspace I don't know from a hole in the wall was not exactly like me. Sh#t even if I had known even one of these people in the physical form it still would had been just as big a waste of time. And for what because they don't play in the sandbox exactly the same way I do. Most of all was the epiphany that I was letting people who seemed like a waste of air upset me like I could do a dam thing about it. A little different than being disappointed in someone you actually respect.
.......

Epiphany number two. Do I really want to release more unneeded negativity into the world or do I want to at the least do my best to nurture happiness positivity and general well being and good health.

We reap the seeds we sow. Being happy content and having piece of mind is just the beginning of this concept."

Must have finished the book. It sounded good but I guess someone turned their back on that idea.....

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:31pm PT
Oh so now Ron et al don't use profanity? That's a hoot from hooterville.

Locker is it because you feel he is being picked on and bullied and you feel sorry for him?
Dal Maxvill

Social climber
Granite City, Illinois
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:35pm PT
In reading the comments here and in online newspapers and blogs, it's apparent that the people defending Bundy and his "property rights" are those least informed about property law and the US public lands system.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:36pm PT
It might seem to be a long time ago for most of you people, but my wife was dropping my son off at daycare in OKC when Tim McVeigh's bomb went off 9 blocks away. It blew out a lot of the windows facing the bomb even at that distance.

That event really shook us up around here. The word "Militia" does not go down very well in this state, despite its right wing tendencies....

What do you think of this, Mr. Burns Brigade?


philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:37pm PT
^^ Thank you BASE104 for the painful reminder of reality.



And Sanskara, those same folks who condemned the Palestinians for using women and children as human shields (which was a lie) are now heralding the use of women and children as human shields. Hypocritical Anarchists.

One man's atrocity is another man's defense I guess.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:41pm PT
I believe NO mountian should be reduced to ugly tailing piles draining mercury laced water into out water systems for gold dust.

But then where will we get all our ammo?


You mean Bundy was supposed to pay grazing fees to the Feds in order to graze his cattle on Federal land? Well... that's just preposterous!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:43pm PT
^^^^ and dirty coal?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:48pm PT
OK, have at it.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:50pm PT
Tiaoga that is why many of Us support legalization.
Removing the Cartel influence and criminal elements is a good thing.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:53pm PT
Liber-nazis love weed...huh, probbly supporting those below while trying to look all clean and enviornment-supporting on outside


Uh, probbly NOT. Outdoor weed is so lowbrow.

Repugnikunts love guns... probbly supporting the Ted Kaczynski's and Timothy McVeigh's while trying to look like they are protecting the Merkin way of life... while hiding behind women.


I'm sure you're using them and your persona alone does more environmental damage than a Bundy's cow, speaking of hypocrisy!

Again... NOT THE POINT. He was illegally grazing his cattle on Federal land and refused to pay grazing fees to the land owner... something the vast majority of rancher DO.

Red Strawherringmans
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:54pm PT
^^^ LOL
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 16, 2014 - 01:06pm PT
Yep... somebody went ahead and posted a picture of a bloody dead kid...

So clearly anyone who thinks government overreach has gone way too far is somehow related to the OK bombers who blew up a daycare center.

Typical entertaining 'logic' in these threads.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 16, 2014 - 01:08pm PT
So clearly anyone who thinks government overreach has gone way too far is somehow related to the OK bombers who blew up a daycare center.

Yep, just like anyone who enjoys a toke every once in a while supports Mexican drug cartels destroying public land to grow marijuana.

Speaking of destroying public land...
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 16, 2014 - 01:09pm PT
This has zip to do with mining or oil.

If I had a prospect on BLM land, I would nominate it for auction, and at the next scheduled lease sale, I would (hopefully) be the winning bidder for that tract.

Oil and gas development does not normally use very much surface area. You can drill 8 wells from a 2 acre pad, no problem. There are always tough environmental laws, and you had better toe the line. The thing about environmental regs vs. resource extraction, is that it isn't very expensive to comply. We do it on every well, be it on private or public land.

The thing with oil is that it is a subsurface use. If you want a drive around, I can drive right through endless farms and ranches with oil and gas wells on them. The BLM does not, as a rule, forbid oil and gas exploration, nor do they forbid hard rock mining. If it is off limits for some reason, we wouldn't waste our time on it. An exploration division is a hard working shop, and if you can't get the leases, you don't have a prospect and move on. Yep. That simple. Both parties can use the land at the same time. Cows do well around oil and gas wells 99.9% of the time, but if there is some rule forbidding development in a certain area, then we don't waste our work on it.

If there were mineral resources that nobody knew about, I would be surprised. Still, you have to jump through BLM hoops. The paper trail is long and obvious.

I see this as a guy who "feels" like he owned the land, but never had a deed or Patent to the property. There are real property laws at stake here, and I am pretty well versed on oil and gas law, which is basically real property law. He is on very shaky ground. I believe that he has no legal standing.

edit: I do feel that a lot of BLM land should be sold off for development. Not everywhere, but in certain places. Not in a wilderness area, or area with unique qualities that require it to be protected. I'm talking about a new Homestead act. 160 to 640 acre tracts here and there where it makes sense. Private land is hard to come by in some areas, and vast areas of the west are tied up in big ranching operations. You can't move in and live there. Surely, out of these millions of unused federal acres, some of it could be made available. The Homestead Act was a fair and equitable way to move land into private ownership.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Apr 16, 2014 - 01:13pm PT
Just ask the lumber processing mills- ohhh thats right you cant- they dont exist anymore.

Continuing to post opinions as fact. Just one of the many.

Can't see past your neighborhood?
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 16, 2014 - 01:19pm PT
NWO, is there any conspiracy theory that you DON"T believe in?

What about the one where Obama was going to flood the country with U.N.troops and put us under a one world government?

Didn't happen. Won't happen. Can't happen.

Do you believe that The New World Order has a secret base beneath the airport in Denver?

You post a lot about chemtrails. I've been seeing jet contrails for ages, and their appearance changes as they pass through areas of differing physical atmospheric conditions. Period.

People like you make me want to shake my head.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 16, 2014 - 01:19pm PT
^^^
Yep. My great-uncle, who owns a lumber mill, would be quite surprised to learn that his business doesn't actually exist.

Careful BASE, they'll put you in the FEMA Camps.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 16, 2014 - 01:22pm PT
I built a house on Forest Service land. I paid a county employee for the land. The FS told me to tear it down because they want to "thin the fuels" which is just another way of saying Dean Heller (R-NV) wants to sell it off to the Russian timber industry. I'm sure hoping a FS LEO... or former FS LEO... will round up the militia to come protect my house. The location is perfect... we can line the women up along the ridge for protection.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 16, 2014 - 01:29pm PT
What this thread show/tell me is that is how far f*#king out there Ron, TGT, NWO and Chief really are.

How sh#t, it is scary what goes on in their heads.




Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 16, 2014 - 01:35pm PT
Mr Bundy was perfectly willing, and did indeed pay his grazing fees to the State of NV which then returned those fees paid back to him. He did so because he didnt believe the BLM nor the "desert tortoise" LIES they issued.

yes, this logic is the reason that a lot of Mr. Anderson's clients have decided that they will pay the fees that they owe him, to nearby NV charities, because they feel that they are more deserving than Mr. Anderson.

And after all, they are Constitutionally Protected to pay owed fees to whomever they feel like paying. Freedom is so wonderful!
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 16, 2014 - 01:49pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 16, 2014 - 01:57pm PT
Yes I just paid my federal taxes to the state of New Mexico. Should be fine.

StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 16, 2014 - 02:06pm PT
People can rationalize all sorts of reasons when they are itching for an armed stand off against the Feds. They have been hoarding guns and ammo, and now they have an opportunity to prove they were right for doing it. It has happened over and over again.

Self fullfilling proficy at it's worst. I sure hope this one does not come true.



atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Apr 16, 2014 - 02:25pm PT
Email update from the Burns Brigade.

Tonight's meeting is at the Carson City KFC at 6:00. Ron will be bringing his .22 revolver for a circle jerk, and the subject for discussion is: "Tax Time! Paying your federal taxes to state authorities". Additionally, Ron's Gun Shop is now open and they have the right to refuse service to anyone who is not white.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 16, 2014 - 02:32pm PT
I have to agree with some... Ron does get picked on A LOT... more than most... possibly more than he deserves? Sometimes it makes me sad, like when the athletically challenged kid is forced to play sports and fails. But Ron does bring it upon himself.

He chooses to play and apparently refuses to think through the sh#t he believes/types. So laugh in amusement and be thankful he is not on your team, but don't forget Rons have feelings too... and at least he isn't a chuffhole.




fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 16, 2014 - 02:46pm PT
I convened an emergency meeting of the Burns Brigade this morning after going a bit heavy on the Thai chilies last night
whatmeworry2

Mountain climber
Apr 16, 2014 - 04:39pm PT
Interesting commentary by Glenn Beck. Not so keen on the approach...

http://thesouthwestjournal.wordpress.com/2014/04/15/glenn-becks-message-to-bundy-and-his-supporters/
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 16, 2014 - 06:21pm PT
tioga
now you're really over the top.
At Rejkyavik (sp?) Gorby and Reagan behaved like intelligent human beings. Both of them against the advice of their more militaristic advisors (excluding George Schulz). They shook hands, looked each other in the eye and agreed that nuclear war was unthinkable; they were obligated and politically able to bring the world down from the brink.
Gorbachev got the Nobel Peace Prize. Reagan got some redemption in a lot of people's minds. They shared responsibility for bringing down the Berlin wall.
But hey, history doesn't seem to appeal to you.

and did indeed pay his grazing fees to the State of NV which then returned those fees paid back to him
Aww the sweet state of Nevada returned the fees. How American. This really proves that the Feds are completely screwed up. How much weed have you smoked today?

The State of Nevada (in some accounts it was Clark County, perhaps it was both) returned (or more likely refused) fees they weren't legally allowed to accept anyway. Just one more example of the long sad chain of Bundy's obstinate idiocy.
He has been digging his own grave for 20 years and still keeps on digging.
Poor deluded man. The unfortunate thing is the Whackos have turned him into a cause celebre further enabling his delusions. And causing no end of trouble and expense for the US Citizens who actually are proud of obeying the law. Speaking of being pawns of a political agenda, Breitbart, Hannity, Beck AND the "militias", etc are using Bundy. He is their toady.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 16, 2014 - 06:38pm PT
^^^
Breitbart is dead, dude. Overtaken by his impotent rage, at the ripe old age of 50-some. That was a couple years ago, at least.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 16, 2014 - 06:50pm PT
DMT

Now that is funny!
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Apr 16, 2014 - 07:07pm PT
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 16, 2014 - 07:25pm PT
Lock up the welfare cowboy and his nutcase sons. These people are dangerous, treasonous thugs.
This may go bad, in which case Fox, especially that hambone Hannity, will have blood on their hands.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 16, 2014 - 08:57pm PT
Sometimes I picture Rong like Geoge Wallace defiantly standing in the way of Federal Law and the National Guard.
Hey how'd that work out for him?
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 16, 2014 - 09:05pm PT
These mental midgets are fodder for Fox. Gonna turn one of them into the next Timothy McVeigh. Hope it's not a ST member, but some of the regulars here sound pretty deranged.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 16, 2014 - 09:11pm PT
ElCap
Breitbart is dead, dude
D'oh. Boy I really blew that one. May I insert that fat Oxytocin snorting, inane big mouth Limbaugh?
Insert your favorite Unfair and Mentally Imbalanced faux news darling here.........


and
Hey how'd that work out for him?
You mean besides a bullet through the abdomen, chest and one in his spinal column and a wheelchair for the rest of his life?
Although, there was no political motivation for the attention seeker who shot him.
And a curious fact:
Following the assassination attempt, Wallace was visited at the hospital by Democratic Congresswoman and presidential primary rival Shirley Chisholm
One might recall (or might not have ever known) Shirley Chisholm was the only African American woman member of Congress at the time. George Wallace was the racist, segregationist governor of Alabama.
Talk about Compassion for your enemy.
Wallace aired television advertising with slogans such as "Do you want the black bloc electing your governor?" and circulated an ad showing a white girl surrounded by seven black boys, with the slogan "Wake Up Alabama! Blacks vow to take over Alabama."
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 16, 2014 - 09:33pm PT
WOW. That's the most incoherent post I've seen in a week.
I wasn't really meaning to be a troll but it seems my post had that effect.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 16, 2014 - 09:42pm PT
An officer for the BLM was RECORDED telling one of the protesters that they were "under orders" to SHOOT anyone attempting to free the cows from a temporary holding pen, and that they could SHOOT anyone showing up with firearms.
Got a quotable reference for that assertion?

Sorry you missed the far too subtle humor in asking you to stop smoking pot. I meant it figuratively. Whether or not you do or did smoke pot is none of my business and I really don't care. I'm sorry if you took offense.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Apr 16, 2014 - 09:42pm PT
Safe to say that this thread has hit rock bottom.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 16, 2014 - 09:43pm PT
Ron wrote: An officer for the BLM was RECORDED telling one of the protesters that they were "under orders" to SHOOT anyone attempting to free the cows from a temporary holding pen, and that they could SHOOT anyone showing up with firearms.



Link please with officer's name and badge number.

Ron..you have shown you true colors. You are a ticking bomb.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 16, 2014 - 09:43pm PT
oooops. silly me. Now I get it. tioga is the troll.
Pretty good tantrums though.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 16, 2014 - 09:57pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

This clip has everything its perfect for this thread. Grown men bitching back and forth at each other, guns prescription drugs and even some people that are not white...
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:00pm PT
Hmmmm... Although I won't go as so far to call anyone here "Bloodthirsty"... but being proud of following all of the federal and state edicts certainly puzzles me. I pay taxes too and am NOT proud of it knowing that my money is used by an evil regime to sew dissent and to kill and maim people all over the world. 10 years ago I laughed when other countries were referring to the US as Satanic and evil. How could that possibly be I wondered in my little bubble of ignorance?

There's nothing wrong with most Americans that either can't see what's happening or choose denial. I can relate. But all empires collapse and we certainly have had a good run. Before they turn us all on each other it's time to remove all the entirely corrupt power structures that are taking this country straight into economic collapse and another senseless world war. The lies are running out.

How to effect that change is the question since the original means of elections and whatnot are merely a circus now. But that question, that need for drastic change remains and is what fuels people to drive thousands of miles with their rifles to defend some rancher in Nevada.

Think of that. Those people would have died for cattle in some blasted scrubby desert. Misdirected anger for sure but more of a sign the kettle is starting to boil.

fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:01pm PT
what's this about The Bunny Ranch?
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:02pm PT
But that question, that need for drastic change remains and is what fuels people to drive thousands of miles with their rifles to defend some rancher in Nevada.

Naw that ain't it
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:06pm PT
Will Tioga really leave and take his pyschobabble with him?
Hope springs eternal.


Hey Ron do you think if MLK had advocated armed insurrection that we would still live in a racially segregated America?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:07pm PT
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:11pm PT
"It will COME TO YOUR DOORS EVENTUALLY WHAT YOU SEND TO THE WORLD!"

It is here Tioga. Not, "it will come", it has come. Now. You can see it here or there right at the door, just entering now. There are all kinds of signs that the expansionist, hedonistic, only care about the ends and not the means forigon policy we have, and that the United States has troops stationed in 130 countries is coming home to roost. We see it in our militaristic police, we see it in government mandated "First amendment zones" where you can or cannot speak truth as the gov sees it and not as our constitutions sees it, we see it in the NSA recording everything we do, we see it here we see it there.

Here's one that most of these posers shockingly don't give a crap about: Our President (who seems like an otherwise decent person) regularly evaluates whom he will kill, American Citizens included, without a trial. These dipshit libtards around here will go on and on supporting the policy. Guys like High Traverse, Mechrist, Kos, etc etc. They have no answer about this except to accuse you of being a Bush supporter (I voted for Kerry 2nd election) and changing the topic. So blame Bush (he should get blame, but less blame than the US expansionist colonial policy's that our whole system supports) The chickens are coming home to roost for us. Right here. Right now. It's clear to all but the blind.

Best to you and yours sir.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:14pm PT
It's clear to all but the blind.


Hey I'm not blind I only masturbated till I needed glasses.
crunch

Social climber
CO
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:14pm PT
Interesting how posted are spit into two opinions, far apart from each other.

I'm reading a book, The Harvest of Rage, by local Colorado author Joel Dyer, that explores how these wildly divergent viewpoints came about. Fascinating.

In the prosperous 1970s farmers and ranchers were actively encouraged to take out big loans by the banks and the feds. What could go wrong? A few years later things changed and it all went south. Thousands of farmers were forced off their farms and into poverty. The banks that lent the money, of course, did great, foreclosing on the land, reselling it.

Those hit by this crisis were, as ever, loyal, conservative, patriotic. Their instinct was to blame themselves for their gullibility. Suicide rates went up, marriages fell apart.

Meanwhile there is always a tiny hard core of haters, white supremacists, religious nuts. They saw their chance and preyed on these lost souls, telling them that it was not their fault that they had been dispossessed. Depending on the whim of the hater/preacher, it was a cabal of jewish bankers or a sign of the start of the end times or some crazy conspiracy or other. This way, the frustration and anger could be directed not at their own country (for these were patriotic, loyal farmers and they would not go there) but at the secret conspiracy that had corrupted and taken over the government and who had subverted the Constitution. The Constitution came from God, and changes to it were therefore evil and had to be stopped...that kind of twaddle. The militias, aspiring to both be patriotic toward a slightly different version of the same country that they were ready to fight, grew out of this.

There was (and is) a grain of truth to the conspiracy theories. The way the feeds treated the farmers in the 1980s was heartless, cruel. The banks thrived. The biggest, wealthiest people did just fine, buying up all the small farmers's land, getting fat. There was the appearance of a conspiracy.

Back to 2014: Bundy's frustrations are very real. Running cattle in the West in this day and age is hard work and not very profitable. It has to be getting harder and harder, year by year. Most of the rural economy is now run by a cartel of huge, powerful corporations, Cargill, Tyson, etc, who control vast wealth and weld enormous power. There's only crumbs left for the little guys. Of course the little guys find this frustrating. It's too bad that Bundy's frustrations (and many others') have been so skillfully redirected to absurd arguments confusing BLM, state's rights, his own rights. He now has the appearance of a simple tax-cheat, which is not at all what he intended, I'm sure.

Dyer's analysis (though he wrote long before the modern, Bundy update) gives a way to see how we got to where we are. Eye-opening book.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=harvest+of+rage
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:18pm PT
I read a lot of that article Ron.
Pretty good attempt at being fair and balanced. Contradicts a lot of the more bizarre conspiracy theories.
However, it's very very short on references.
I also think it has a couple of downright errors but I'm not going to bother digging for the facts.
It will be interesting to see what the Nevada legislature actually finds in their investigation.

The straightforward takeaway is when citizens try to oppose the legal actions of the government (whatever the motivation or validity) things can get very nasty in a hurry. The people have the right to complain, march in the streets, sit down in the parks, lobby, fund Libertarian candidates, whatever. But when they threaten force against the government (which they did) the government will respond with greater force (as it should). It is very lucky that no one fired a shot.

I'd give the "militias" a lot more slack if they were speaking up about the dozens of unarmed innocent citizens who are killed by the police every year.

By the way. The movie "Fruitvale Station" is really worth seeing. It illustrates exactly the mayhem that results when a group of people who have done nothing illegal are confronted by armed security guards and are not immediately compliant.
Sh#t happens.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:18pm PT
Slouchmaster...those aren't chickens...that's the DUCK with a cigarette in his bill and he's had with you politards....Duck...!
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:19pm PT
Everyone agrees that Ron is a time bomb and need help. Who can get him to a mental health professional...now?????
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:21pm PT
Ron...your link is an opinion piece...do you understand that?


Tick, tick...boom!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:24pm PT
Everyone agrees that Ron is a time bomb and need help. Who can get him to a mental health professional...now?????

^^^ Before he shows up at Harry Reid's office in full battle armor and weaponry demanding that Harry Reidtard turn over all the BLM weapons to him (for safe keeping).
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:28pm PT
High T wrote: It is very lucky that no one fired a shot.


Yes putting women on the front line to protect the men, brave boys.

A little about Ron's link/source...http://scgnews.com/who-is-scg

No name...another A-coward.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:31pm PT
Holy Schiest! The Full Moon must be rising, because the right-wing loonies are out.

Ron A & Tioga? Are you folks really this angry against our wonderful country? Most things here are really good for almost all of us.

Sorry that things have not worked out as well for you, but maybe you could quit believing the folks that post negative information, and you could instead, act on positive information.

America is still the greatest country in the world for those seeking opportunity.



Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:33pm PT
Makes you wonder just what oath Ron took?

To which one of these groups.

http://www.splcenter.org/what-we-do/hate-and-extremism
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:40pm PT

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:45pm PT
"Militias" have been springing up like crabgrass around here. The funny thing is there is usually at least 1 federal or state agent 'undercover' for every 2 regular citizens. They're usually also usually the ones wanting action and suggesting absurd violent sh1t. It wouldn't surprise me if that a-hole that suggested women as shields draws a W-2 from our taxes.

Either way what they had in Nevada was a mob of very angry people. You also had people that were perhaps, shall we say, not the deepest thinkers. There was no cohesion and every one of them would have been cut down by the BLM thugs had someone blinked.

You can see the gov't abuses all around the country now, often in color with sound thanks to pervasive recordings and the internet. The NM police just murdered a homeless guy on video. In Kali at least 5 thugs with badges murdered Kelly Thomas, also on video.

We are truly living in interesting times.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:47pm PT
^^^ Are you afeared?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 16, 2014 - 10:59pm PT
couchmaster
On one point I likely agree with you more than you might like.
I've been against the whole Department of Homeland Security mega complex since George W Bush's advisors proposed it. Homeland Insecurity is an undemocratic, hysterical and counterproductive response to the horror of 911. Also a convenient tool to abuse suspicious travelers and various law abiding citizens.
I have written to my Senators and Representative more than once about the use of FISA, passed in 1978, when it has been up for reauthorization.
FISA's original intent was to provide a legal framework for the Feds to conduct intelligence gathering against foreign agents in this country. One of it's goals was to prevent "illegal" espionage against US citizens (can you say Watergate?).
FISA has the fatal flaw that the "court" meets in secret and who is on the court is also secret. Carter signed it. Bush II and his cabal expanded it.
On July 28, 2007, President Bush called on Congress to pass legislation to reform the FISA in order to ease restrictions on surveillance of terrorist suspects where one party (or both parties) to the communication are located overseas.
...
Under the Protect America Act of 2007, communications that begin or end in a foreign country may be wiretapped by the U.S. government without supervision by the FISA Court. The Act removes from the definition of "electronic surveillance" in FISA any surveillance directed at a person reasonably believed to be located outside the United States. As such, surveillance of these communications no longer requires a government application to, and order issuing from, the FISA Court.
So we can thank Shrub and his cabal for essentially removing even the FISA court from most oversight.
This was passed and is the legal cover for what has occurred since. Absent any restraints by the so called "conservative" Supreme Court.

Obama and Holder have also been complicit for the usual tawdry political reasons. They are now pulling it back since they don't have to worry about re-election. And thanks to Snowden.
The Chief Justice of the Supreme Court appoints the FISA court. Can you say "Rehnquist and then Roberts"? Do you trust THEM?

Do you think McCain, Cain, Romney, Palin, Perry, Bachmann, or the rest of them (excepting Ron Paul) would have done differently with Homeless Insecurity or FISA? Hillary might have moved in the right direction, possibly.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 16, 2014 - 11:07pm PT
Hey Ron.
I have disagreed with you for years on many points and even agreed on a few. You often get pretty excited but are mostly respectful. I think you are mistaken in most ways about the Bundy fiasco.
I hold no ill feelings towards you.
I'm not pleased when others insult you. We can disagree and be sarcastic and hoot and holler but we don't need to insult each other.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 16, 2014 - 11:28pm PT
^^^ Oh Yea? Well same to you and more of it!
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 16, 2014 - 11:41pm PT
Yeah, let's keep it civil with the militia members.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 16, 2014 - 11:48pm PT
HighT...Good for you. I still think Ron is ready to go off the deep end. He just needed something like this to set him off.


Just what oath did the oath taker take?

Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Apr 16, 2014 - 11:57pm PT
I'm wondering who gets to define "enemies domestic". I'm siding against the militia on the Bundy issue. He says that he is against the guv'mint, therefore he could be considered a domestic enemy. Is it about the rule of law and the right to redress or is it about something else?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Apr 17, 2014 - 12:00am PT
As a Canadian I've always read it to be enemies against the constitution and the people of the united states. Maybe you can quote that phrase in the paragraph that it was written in for better context.


If it were just for the government, the current government, the administration that got more $ from lobbyists to run more ads and get elected, I wouldn't put as much stock in it.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 17, 2014 - 12:12am PT
Just to be clear, I don't respect militia members. I think they are seriously dangerous and mentally ill.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 17, 2014 - 12:17am PT
So Ron gets told by Cmac to cool it but the rest of us are the problem/shit slingers.

Amazing how the guy mind works.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 17, 2014 - 12:33am PT
Ron has the right to be a member of an armed militia. I would not want to be his neighbor, his friend or in contact with him in any way. He is dangerous.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 17, 2014 - 12:45am PT
Good neighbor...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/04/14/kansas-shooting-suspect-neighbors/7720943/
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 17, 2014 - 02:25am PT
If you are so disturbed by the paranoia of government overreach and tyranny that you feel compelled to take up arms in an arachist militia against the government agencies mandated to do their job then it's not Country that has failed.


Most of the current defenders of the Bundy Bunch are the same folks who cheered and marched in lock step with the Reagan and Bush admministration policies that got US in this sh#t can to begin with. Remember when after nineeleven when your fervent patriotism and blood lust were at the boiling point? "Kill The Ragheads", "Nuke the sand niggers back to the Stone Age", "Turn the camel f*#kers into smoldering glass" F*#k the Ayrabs". You were all only too eager to send the Our Government off to kill kill kill brown people. Now you want to kill kill kill Our Government. Schizophrenia is fun.
John M

climber
Apr 17, 2014 - 02:47am PT
Rons link that he is so adamant is the truth now says this…

This video is down until we get to the bottom of this story.
UPDATE:
We took down our video on the Bundy Ranch scandal because it contains what we believe is a factual error and it would be irresponsible to leave it up in its current form. Especially in the current context. We are going to begin working on a replacement video only after completing a new investigation.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 17, 2014 - 03:20am PT
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0-SyDmXUv38
Clear, objective and concise.



John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Apr 17, 2014 - 09:37am PT
Seems they were ordered to shoot any one attempting to release the cows from the holding pen and they were "authorized" to shoot anyone with a fire arm present. Both contradictory of laws, both federal and state.. Had i been issued such orders that reply would have been --WHAT???? If i had executed such orders there would be hundreds of bodies in my wake.


Harsh, but once in a while, the government needs to show it is serious about enforcement. Otherwise, people don't pay attention to it.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 17, 2014 - 09:49am PT
Anyone can put ANYTHING on you tube. Which is owned by google. The same google that in concert with that dept of the interior attempted to cleanse the sight of info actually regarding this situation.

How do you argue or try to even communicate with someone who would believe this nonsense? Simple minds being controlled by Fox and talk radio yakkers.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Apr 17, 2014 - 09:54am PT
That would have been the equivalent of ol Johnny Juniper the climber being shot dead after he sawed those junipers down to clean his route. Sounds fair eh...

again harsh. But people that "clean" routes, hmm.....
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 17, 2014 - 10:19am PT
Ron can't prove anything except he is closer to the edge and about go off it.

Dingus...love the Hollywood clips/photos...how so many Americans think the "west was won".
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 17, 2014 - 10:24am PT
Bud Purdy...a role model western rancher...sorry he is gone.

http://www.lifeontherange.org/assets/docs/range-stories/bud-purdy/bud-purdy-feature-story.pdf
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 17, 2014 - 10:35am PT
New math, back in the USSR - don't know how lucky we are boyz

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 17, 2014 - 10:42am PT
"Ron, you are making big a mistake. Really, cross check your info before you go all in.'



That would be a first.


Nearly 100 percent. Amazing even from Ron.
xtrmecat

Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
Apr 17, 2014 - 10:46am PT
Been doing a lot of looking and a sh t ton of reading. Ron is closest to the truth out of all the posters here. I watch no, repeat no mainstream media, with the exception of our local newspaper. It is more for comedic relief than news. Ron's facts check, lazy people shouldn't argue, makes lurkers see just how poorly they argue.


Burly Bob
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 17, 2014 - 10:51am PT
Ron, you are clearly a much better human being than some of these dudes who are so damned ignorant that they rattle away without a good argument. As they are too f*#king stupid to formulate an argument, they wind up saying filthy untrue things, personal attacks, and trying to insult you in their posts thinking that they are "winning" the discussion.

But I still don't get the reason for support for Bundy. It appears to be strictly anger at big government. Misdirected anger IMO, attacking the results, and not the root of the issue.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 17, 2014 - 10:53am PT
Calling Ron's posts a sheeit ton is rather rude and we all know what happened with that deputy sheriff and Pretty Boy Floyd, don't we?



Black Militia demonstrate for right to climb Nevada rocks, unfettered.


Shoot to kill, men.

Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Apr 17, 2014 - 10:54am PT
Commemorative coins, how cute.



crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 17, 2014 - 10:58am PT
So you take an oath to shoot federal officers and you're a "much better human being". Idiotic.

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:05am PT
Bruce wrote: Bob, according to Ron you are too far away to know anything.


According to Ron...Obama is Muslim, the Muslim brotherhood is taking other, Obama wasn't born in America and almost a 100 percent of the citizens of Nevada agree with him.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:35am PT
Can't Help Seeing Elvis' Junk
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:37am PT
Ron to the rescue!

Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:39am PT
Hehe, lovin the Elvis coins.

Good idea Ekat, People of Walmart would snap up these gems. Add some commemorative plates, a velvet Bundy painting and start counting the profits.
xtrmecat

Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:46am PT
Bruce K., I may be from a state other than Nevada, but I have some special electrons I send out on spy missions every once in a while. Hate sending them to Nevada cause they always spend extra time in the cat houses and never return promptly or with all the funds accounted for.

Burly Bob
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:55am PT
This thread is awesome. A gift that keeps giving like the drip drip drip of gonnorhea.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:59am PT
I heer they got guns and nice lips in Neevaduh

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 17, 2014 - 12:01pm PT
But duz they haza Wallmart? Ah needs me sum mo bullits fer my varmit gun.
Them daymned revuenewrs iz varmits ima tellin ya.




Oh just for the record the Solar Project was intended to be miles away from Bundy's cows in Squaterstan. AND!!! The Chinese pulled out of the project a month before Bundy got his marching orders. No Solar project, no collusion get it? No of course not.

What y'all ought to be doing is marching your armed patriotic fat asses down to the Chinese Embassy and threaten them. After all their cancelling of the project cost Nevadastan thousands of good paying jobs. Heck even Cletus T Bunny Stuffer could have had a good job. Guess they'd rather shovel cow crap all day.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 17, 2014 - 12:05pm PT
Meanwhile, I lerned sumpin on SuperTopo today:

John M

climber
Apr 17, 2014 - 12:15pm PT
Ron.. what do you say to the link you posted as being the facts saying this..

This video is down until we get to the bottom of this story.
UPDATE:
We took down our video on the Bundy Ranch scandal because it contains what we believe is a factual error and it would be irresponsible to leave it up in its current form. Especially in the current context. We are going to begin working on a replacement video only after completing a new investigation.


[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]

fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 17, 2014 - 01:28pm PT
The prospect of amalgamating Reid, the solar industry, the BLM and the Chinese was, alas, too good to be true.
klinefelter

Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
Apr 17, 2014 - 01:41pm PT
What if Bundy ranch were owned by black people?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 17, 2014 - 01:43pm PT
^^^^Nice avatar pic!

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 17, 2014 - 01:44pm PT
Well I will say one thing that I think, feel, know is true: The BLM, NPS, and almost all FEDs I come into contact with, are now as#@&%es of the first order.

Ranger walks into my campsite at JT with GUNs drawn!!!!! WTF??? to tell us that the quiet hour will be 12 midnite cause it's newyears eve.

Guns at the ready, just incase you know.

Keep it up Ron.

+1
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 17, 2014 - 01:52pm PT
Guns at the ready, just incase you know.

Guyman left out the interesting part...

his gun was drawn too!

Not! Ranger types do nothing for me.


Bruce your lucky, the RCMP seem like pussycats compaired to Fed LEOs.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 17, 2014 - 01:53pm PT
"You're a Talker". "Listening to talkers makes me thirsty. And hungry". "Bring me one of those cows".
klinefelter

Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
Apr 17, 2014 - 02:11pm PT
An interesting closing paragraph from an Atlanta Journal Constitution article:

Let's keep the major facts and alter a couple of what ought to be minor details, just to see if it casts the situation in a new light: Instead of armed militia and federal grazing lands in Nevada, let's say the case involved black Americans in inner-city Chicago, Atlanta, Philadelphia or elsewhere who had seized control of federal property, refused to pay $1 million in back rent on it, refused to recognize the federal government's authority and had summoned heavily armed men to fend off federal officials who attempted to reclaim the taxpayer property.
How would Fox News and other conservative media have responded? As a celebration of "liberty and freedom!!"? Somehow I do not think so.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 17, 2014 - 02:12pm PT
If folks are running around aiming sniper rifles at law enforcement...

You think this will lead to more or less of a police state?

Violence begat violence

And the peaceful are treated as threats

Thanks gun nuts and terrorists
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 17, 2014 - 02:57pm PT
Bruce wrote: You breed the culture, you sow the results.


That goes way over their heads. They just don't get it.


Gun violence in the US is out of control and it isn't the leo's leading the pack.
crunch

Social climber
CO
Apr 17, 2014 - 03:06pm PT
An interesting closing paragraph from an Atlanta Journal Constitution article:

Let's keep the major facts and alter a couple of what ought to be minor details, just to see if it casts the situation in a new light: Instead of armed militia and federal grazing lands in Nevada, let's say the case involved black Americans in inner-city Chicago, Atlanta, Philadelphia or elsewhere who had seized control of federal property, refused to pay $1 million in back rent on it, refused to recognize the federal government's authority and had summoned heavily armed men to fend off federal officials who attempted to reclaim the taxpayer property.
How would Fox News and other conservative media have responded? As a celebration of "liberty and freedom!!"? Somehow I do not think so.

klinefelter, that does not work as an analogy.

The Bundy incident is just the latest in what is essentially a rural issue, particularly a Western rural issue. This issue stems from very real frustration over the way that families that have lived--often for generations--on land they strongly identify with have been treated (or feel they have been treated) over the last several decades. There has been a steady shift of rural populations to cities. A shift of rural wealth away from communities and the mom & pop ranches to large corporations like Cargill, Archer Midland, Tyson. It's harder and harder for little guys to make a living out of farming/ranching in the West.

These families have a very strong bond with a vision of the land as an unchanging, permanent resource, with themselves as stewards. Hard for city people to develop that kind of bond. Cities change so fast.

Another frustration is that most of us live in cities. We understand urban problems. They in the news, are acknowledged, dealt with. There's few votes and little money in traditional Western ranching, so they get ignored.

I sympathize with the grievances of Bundy and his friends. But I think they are are being played. I think people are being played on both sides of the issue. Clever manipulators are whipping up hatred, directing it in the wrong directions, away from understanding the complex forces that are changing the West and toward irrelevant but trendy targets like EPA regulations or vaguely defined, absurd conspiracies.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 17, 2014 - 03:13pm PT
And then we have Bud Purdy...barely hear his name in the new.

"By Joan McCarter:

"Being a Westerner and the daughter and granddaughter of cattle ranchers, I think it's about time that the non-crazy Western ranchers get some equal national media time. Because they're not all federal government-hating, "wise use," sagebrush rebelling, gun-toting crazies—even in a state like Idaho. One of Idaho's most influential cattle ranchers, and conservationists is proof of that. His name was Bud Purdy, and in his 96 years, he became sort of a legend in the state. Unfortunately, he passed away this week, but this remembrance from the Idaho Stateman's Rocky Barker tells the story.


Purdy, 96, led the ranching industry into rest and rotation grazing on public lands that both protected the range and improved cattle production.

He duck-hunted and skied with Ernest Hemingway and hosted Jimmy Stewart and Gary Cooper at his Picabo Ranch.

He helped start the Idaho Cattle Association, led the University of Idaho Foundation as president and was chairman of the Idaho Association of Commerce and Industry. In addition to the ranch, he and his late wife Ruth owned the Picabo Store, the Picabo Elevator and Silver Creek Supply, a seed business. […]

Purdy donated a 3,500-acre conservation easement on all of the ranch along Silver Creek in the 1990s to the Nature Conservancy, adjacent to its own Silver Creek Preserve. Purdy didn’t even take the tax break on the easement valued at $7 million. […]

He loved the cattle business, he explained to writer, producer and author Steve Stuebner in an article in 2012 for the Idaho Rangeland Commission (which he co-founded). "Every morning, you get up and do something different," he said. "You turn out on the range and ride a horse every day.

Even now, I go out and make sure the water is OK, check the fences and make sure the gates are closed. "It's just a constant going out there and doing it," Purdy said. "I was never a cowboy, but I've ridden a million miles."


As one of my good friends here in Idaho wrote on Facebook, "He loved his land so much he owned it and when owning it wasn't enough to preserve it for future generations, he figured out a way to do that.

**" Cliven Bundy doesn't represent the West. He doesn't represent cattle ranchers. He represents a minority of right-wing cranks who are good at making a lot of noise through threats of violence. He's also nothing more than a common crook. If you're looking for an emblematic man of the West, it's not Bundy. It's Bud Purdy."
**

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 17, 2014 - 03:13pm PT
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Apr 17, 2014 - 03:15pm PT
Elvis was a Fed, well, sorta

The King visited Nixon in the Oval office, I think I read somewhere that Elvis had a pistol hidden in his boot durign the meeting.

http://nixon.elvispresley.com.au/#sthash.2QjBSain.bZboGjud.dpbs
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 17, 2014 - 03:27pm PT
Elvis went to ask Nixon what he could do to kick the snot out of the anti-American dirty hippies that were protesting against the war in Viet Nam.

Nixon said thanks but no thank but have a sandwhich.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Apr 17, 2014 - 03:28pm PT
So whose side would John Wayne be on? The obvious answer would the, the good guy's side. Who is the good guy?

"High Noon" was the most un-American thing I have ever seen in my whole life. The last thing in the picture is ol' Coop [Gary Cooper] putting the United States marshal's badge under his foot and stepping on it. I'll never regret having run [screenwriter Carl Foreman] out of this country.
 The Duke -
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 17, 2014 - 03:28pm PT
Iron that out a tad Klingfelter. Should this reworked version be a better comparison? "
Let's keep the major facts and alter a couple of what ought to be minor details, just to see if it casts the situation in a new light: Instead of armed militia and federal grazing lands in Nevada, let's say the case involved black Americans in inner-city Chicago, Atlanta, Philadelphia or elsewhere who had been living in government owned housing for generations when they were told that the terms and conditions they had agreed too were changing without them being able to jack or sh#t about it. The black residents then stop payment in disagreement and protest. The feds win in court twice and then walk away and ignore it. 20 years later the feds suddenly show up in force with guns, surround the buildings and say Get the F out". The blacks refuse to recognize the federal government's authority saying, my great great grandpa had been invited to live here by General Grant"... and then had called for help. Amrican citizens show up to help, they are heavily armed to help fend off federal officials who attempted to reclaim the taxpayer property and see that justice as they see it is served.

How would any media have responded? As a celebration of "liberty and freedom!!"?

My money would be that the media would have been sympathetic, much more so I would suspect.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 17, 2014 - 03:31pm PT
Why am I hearing the theme music to the Twilight Zone?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 17, 2014 - 03:41pm PT
Amazing that Bundy is biting the hand that has fed him all these years.
crunch

Social climber
CO
Apr 17, 2014 - 03:45pm PT
So rural issues are legit because these folks have had the benefit of inheriting resources and wealth.

...and urban issues are unimportant and fleeting?

Well, that's not what I said, sorry if I gave that impression.

Urban issues are more important. They affect more people, for one thing.

Here's a statement from the President of Archer Daniel Midland:

"Our competitors are our friends. Our customers are the enemy."

from a secret recording made for an Dept of Justice antitrust case against a cartel of some of the largest and most powerful agricultural corporations:

http://www.justice.gov/atr/public/speeches/4489.htm

Dealing with such cartels is complex, challenging, frustrating. They have expensive lawyers, powerful lobbyists, huge budgets (ADM: 90 billion in revenue last year). It makes things easy when they stay in the background, quietly raking in huge profits while their customers and suppliers--"the enemy"--all fight loudly among ourselves.

If there's a legitimate target for ranchers' ire, it might be these huge agricultural corporations.

Personally, I think traditional Western ranching is kind of doomed. Almost 150 years of ranching in the arid Western US has wreaked havoc on the fragile deserts and rangelands. Far too many animals. Should mostly be phased out.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 17, 2014 - 04:09pm PT
Why is it that someone's entire so-called "intellectual" output can be encapsulated in just one cartoon?

There is no intellect.

John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Apr 17, 2014 - 04:16pm PT
The Sleeping Giant is awakening. The Giant that most if any of you fuktards here on the Taco know anything about. Nothing.


Well, I for one am waiting. I hope this sleeping giant won't make me wait too long. Won't live forever.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 17, 2014 - 04:22pm PT
My 'Sleeping Giant' is awakening
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Apr 17, 2014 - 04:30pm PT
The Sleeping Giant is awakening. The Giant that most if any of you fuktards here on the Taco know anything about. Nothing.

more likely the insomniac midget is taking a nap...
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 17, 2014 - 04:52pm PT
how ya doing, chief, are you entertained here today?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 17, 2014 - 04:53pm PT
Chief, you are f*#king nuts.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 17, 2014 - 04:56pm PT
Chuffer you really are a hypocritical looser.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 17, 2014 - 05:00pm PT
You are doing a great job Chiefieeeeee/Brownieeeee

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lssbAwu-OtE
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Apr 17, 2014 - 05:07pm PT
I don't get why you act so tough the Chef.
Don't you avoid people in real life and pretend to not know them?
When you meet face to face, or when people threaten to tell your boss Kurt Wedberg that you spend all day being an as#@&%e on the internet while he pays you to schedule guiding and answer phone calls and other such banalities that make up your j-o-b?

I'm sorry you were some army retard that got hooked on the sauce and lost good years to it.
I'm sorry all you can do now is sh#t on people because you yourself are so small and hateful and full of anger that you can't go a day without being an insecure, unpleasant nobody.

Maybe you need to find religion or something. Maybe you need a time out from here too.
A self imposed ban. Go take a vacation. Go hike. Go do something rather than be a knuckle dragging assh0le on every site you're a member of.
Byran

climber
San Jose, CA
Apr 17, 2014 - 05:08pm PT
Snopes, Wikipedia, NPR, and the entire global scientific community have been proven to carry a strong liberal bias. It's quite obvious when you consider that these people and institutions attempt to form objective, reasoned beliefs that cohere to reality. And as we all know, reality itself has a strong liberal bias.
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Apr 17, 2014 - 05:10pm PT
And why do you make fun of other climbers? What have you done?
What, a couple climbs and you're the boss?
You're so jealous of others it's sad.

I remember you'd keep posting the same lame FA you did all over SP meanwhile the guys from pullharder were out there knocking out all kinds of climbs without even a peep on that site. Jealous loser.


Edit: stalker too. If you ruffle his granny panties he digs up info on you and tries calling your employer. What a man eh?
Sanskara

climber
Apr 17, 2014 - 05:30pm PT
Chief shouldn't the above pic be over on the selfie thread ;

You look do cute down there...
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 17, 2014 - 05:30pm PT
Dyamn
Took a girl to call out the Chief.
Finally someone around here has real balls.
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Apr 17, 2014 - 05:31pm PT
he is shorter than me and I am 5'6". yes I have seen you, dingleberry.

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 17, 2014 - 05:37pm PT
"he is shorter than me and I am 5'6". yes I have seen you, dingleberry."

Hilarious.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 17, 2014 - 05:41pm PT
Wow..that really hurts little one.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 17, 2014 - 05:41pm PT
You work for Kurt, Chief?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 17, 2014 - 05:46pm PT
damn

that little Anita knows how to play hardball !

you gonna let her take you down, chief?

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 17, 2014 - 05:46pm PT
Being so small Chief explains why everyone thing goes right over your head.


So what is it...five two or three?
Dal Maxvill

Social climber
Granite City, Illinois
Apr 17, 2014 - 05:49pm PT
You work for Kurt, Chief?

Not anymore, apparently.
http://www.sierramountaincenter.com/bio_all_guides.html

Can't imagine why he was let go.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 17, 2014 - 05:50pm PT
Chuffer YOU are the KING of insults.
You reap what you sow.
Hypocrite!
You swore to defend this country yet you now want to take it down.
Have you even considered what you would set up instead?

You demonized the Occupy Movement now your glorify the OcCowpie Moovement.
Keep insulting little Chuff eventually the Viagra will kick in and you'll get twig.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 17, 2014 - 05:52pm PT
Chief on the left in green.

Sanskara

climber
Apr 17, 2014 - 05:53pm PT
Don't feed the troll...

I know I have been a pathetic example but if we don't feed these guys they will go away. Yes it will take time but it will work. They want confrontation if we don't respond than they are just a bunch of gun hugging freaks talking amongst them self. I am sure they must have all kinds of right wing gun nut militia forums for them to get all militant on. Sooner or later they will just move on over there. Well we can hope if not I think we all need to just learn not to click on links were we might find there bullsh#t, if they try to ruin good threads with there sh#t ignore it and contact CMac..

If they are here talking about this sh#t starting threads on a climbing forum they are looking to fight. Look at the Bundy thing and its clear to see these guys just want an excuse for any kind of confrontation they can rouse up..
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 17, 2014 - 05:53pm PT
Dal, that's SP Parker's gig (SMC). Kurt's gig is Sierra Mountaineering International.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 17, 2014 - 05:53pm PT
The Chuff sux butt (loved the dog tag on the fatty) but this bold Anita has sure piqued my interest.
She must be Hawt with and Feisty.
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Apr 17, 2014 - 05:54pm PT
what's wrong with being from the country?
where are you from, the f*#kign Upper West Side?
who are you to make fun of where people come from??

man, you have issues
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Apr 17, 2014 - 05:57pm PT
why are you talking about penises again?
anyone notice Chef always talks about butts and penises?
creeeeepy
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 17, 2014 - 06:00pm PT
Except when he is talking "shet" which is most of the time.



OcCowpie MOOvement uber alles.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 17, 2014 - 06:01pm PT
Ok..just saw a picture of the guy...five four to five five on a good day.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 17, 2014 - 06:02pm PT
Little Chuff you are an embarrassment to the Service.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
Any self respecting Serviceman or Vet wouldn't give you the time of day.
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Apr 17, 2014 - 06:03pm PT
btw I am on crutches, not a wheelchair.

and I don't need batteries, I am rechargeable, assh0le!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 17, 2014 - 06:04pm PT
^^^ Dig this climbin' chick


Chuffie you'd be fragged.
Were you section 8?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 17, 2014 - 06:05pm PT
Chief wrote: She's back from the corner drug mart and got reloaded on the batts.


What a man and you wonder why females being abused in the military is so high.


Role models...http://rt.com/usa/sexual-assault-military-increase-899/
Dal Maxvill

Social climber
Granite City, Illinois
Apr 17, 2014 - 06:08pm PT
Dal, that's SP Parker's gig (SMC). Kurt's gig is Sierra Mountaineering International.

Right you are, my bad.
http://sierramountaineering.com/our-guides/

Rick Poedtke is still employed by Kurt, one of the nicest guys you could meet.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 17, 2014 - 06:08pm PT
She's got more gonads than the Chuff. Probably a better climber too. Certainly vastly more intelligent. And undoubtable more enjoyable company.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 17, 2014 - 06:20pm PT
Our friendly and personable expert guide staff
But then Chief doesn't guide for them, so this statement COULD be true.

I've only met Kurt Wedburg once. Nice, straight up guy.
Dal Maxvill

Social climber
Granite City, Illinois
Apr 17, 2014 - 06:34pm PT
The Chief does guide. He used to go on and on on summitpost about a client who died. Poedtke made himself out to be a real martyr, never mind about the poor guy who kicked the bucket.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 17, 2014 - 06:38pm PT
And now he supports anarchists who want to use women and children as Human shields.


American Taliban.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 17, 2014 - 06:41pm PT
the OcCowpie Moovement

I lol'd
Sanskara

climber
Apr 17, 2014 - 06:46pm PT
A certain amount of content by a certain someone all seems to be gone...
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 17, 2014 - 06:51pm PT
That is weird.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 17, 2014 - 07:11pm PT
All the recent Chief posts have vanished!
Vellly intellesting.....but stlange!!!

(most of you are likely too young to remember Laugh In and Arte Johnsen)
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 17, 2014 - 07:13pm PT
You're kidding about that, right, HT?

And I believe the quote was....

'Velllllly intelesting....

but shtooopid!'
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 17, 2014 - 07:14pm PT
And now for something completely different
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkFx3TaOunA
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 17, 2014 - 07:18pm PT
apogee
you are of course right. I just like my perversion of it.
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Apr 17, 2014 - 07:19pm PT

Forget about chief, let's get back to more important matters...



philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 17, 2014 - 07:20pm PT
Ron you are full of it. Chuffster comes out swinging insults and hurling feces. He earns what he gets.


If Chuff and the Gang down on the Bundy Bunker in Squaterville Nevadastan are the shining examples of American patriots and the best and brightest amoung US then we as a Nation have already failed.

Bundy gives Ranchers, 16,000 of whom have no problem paying their pittance of leasing fees, a very bad name. Much like the Militia hooligans give gun owners a bad name.



OhCowpie MOOvement now and forever.
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Apr 17, 2014 - 07:23pm PT
it doesn't take the genius of the world to see Chef's constant nastiness.
the guy never has anything nice or positive to say. nothing but hate and ugliness and angry, combative comments. putting people down every chance he gets. who lives like this?

the last thing people like this need is an internet connection.

and to try and make fun of me for being laid up right now is super classy. this is the winner of all insults. even mattski comes up with better sh#t.

Sanskara

climber
Apr 17, 2014 - 07:27pm PT
No Ron I think maybe you got it wrong..

I think it's more like you and nine other posters are so delusional you really believer that more than the ten of you give a rats ass to hear your right wing fear mongering messages of hate day in and day out..

I think ST has waaaay more active participants that don't post. Of those that do post and its way more than ten only about ten MAX hop on the right wing conspiracy theorist horse with you...
Sanskara

climber
Apr 17, 2014 - 07:30pm PT
E

R u saying she is or he is?
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 17, 2014 - 08:03pm PT
After a hard outside day on the ranchette, I took a little pre-dinner nap, and had a short nightmare, that turns out close to the ST Truth:

Ron A to “The Chief!”

Them left-wingers is fixin to lynch me on ST, and you need to help me whip them consarned dudes off the intardnet, with your Manly Man ways!!!

Sides-that! Yew got them all scaarrrrd of you. Give them both barrels!

I got yere back and 100% of Knevadans (and all reel men) are waiting for us to kick their asses!

What could go rong?


Robb

Social climber
It's Ault or Nunn south of Shy Annie
Apr 17, 2014 - 08:10pm PT
Baggin' on the Chief time eh?
I'm neither here nor there, but given what the man has done I'd cut him some slack. Weren't for people like him we wouldn't have the freedom to post here. We've nearly all transgressed at one time or another-I'll be the first to admit it.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 17, 2014 - 08:31pm PT
So true Ekat, My father, father-in-law and mother-in-law served during WW2...they never talked about would never brag about what they did/had to do.

Chief just seems angry. Quite sad when you think about.


He joined the service, got paid, retired, still doesn't give him the right to act the way he does.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 17, 2014 - 08:46pm PT
The thread that keeps on giving.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 17, 2014 - 08:50pm PT

did the chief just delete a lot of his posts and pictures or something?

why? he's entitled, first amendment and all..
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 17, 2014 - 09:13pm PT
Wingnuts are getting waaaaaay too much attention. They crave it, it gives their wacko views legitimacy, so we are enablers.

Let's stop it..now!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 17, 2014 - 09:36pm PT
Maybe he realized his boss was paying attention.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 17, 2014 - 09:38pm PT
Pastor Fred Phelps did a lot of great things for the Civil Rights movement. Doesn't excuse his behavior later in life.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Apr 17, 2014 - 10:30pm PT

"Maybe he realized his boss was paying attention"

Correct answer with his PTSD, should wake up the DOJ: they might take his weapons away. Knock Knock it's three in the morning.

He still has Ron [inciting to profit from selling of arms]to get more but that will end as well.


bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 17, 2014 - 10:48pm PT
it doesn't take the genius of the world to see Chef's constant nastiness.
the guy never has anything nice or positive to say. nothing but hate and ugliness and angry, combative comments. putting people down every chance he gets. who lives like this?

the last thing people like this need is an internet connection.

The Chief has served this country more than most of us ever will, including Dingus.

The dude does not like the direction of our country and is trying to assert his 1st amendment rights. He HAS that right, just as Cmac has the right to ban him when he sees fit. Chris Mac has my respect in that he allows for this bullshit to play out freely on a forum of climbing people.

I too am an angry person who throws insults around freely.

What is striking to me is that you whiners almost never complain when the liberals attack conservatives like myself, Chaz, TGT, Ron, the Chief, or Jody.

You NEVER speak out in our defense when we are called names. I, and we, are used to this. It only makes us stronger, and gives us a wider view into your psyche.

You cannot understand us because you are confined into an emotional, overly sensitive world where you aren't used to being challenged or called your rightful names. Overly-sensitive hypocrites and as#@&%es!
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 17, 2014 - 10:49pm PT
This is "The's" last post on this thread according to the ST search function. So his output for two days has disappeared.


Apr 15, 2014 - 11:46am PT


Ah, now I see. Big Government selling off public land to Big Money... all reported by Fux at Big News. The only thing left to do is show up armed to the hilt and defend government land from the government. Got it... genius!

The Dann saga was NEVER on any news agency. None.


Fox most assuredly never heard about it.


It is reality. Yet hardly anyone ever heard about it until the documentary came out.


There are many other incidents just like the DANN's that have never had any news coverage.





But people as yourself are clueless as to the realities of all this and instantly politicize it to your gain. Quote Here
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 17, 2014 - 10:51pm PT
John M

climber
Apr 17, 2014 - 10:51pm PT
You NEVER speak out in our defense when we are called names

speak for yourself dude. I have tried to put a stop to it. Karl has tried to put a stop to it.


have you ever tried to put a stop to it? have you ever told the chief to chill?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 17, 2014 - 10:53pm PT
^^^ And that is the honest truth.

John M has told me to chill and I appreciate him for that.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 17, 2014 - 10:55pm PT
have you ever tried to put a stop to it? have you ever told the chief to chill?

As long as I'm under attack, I will return fire....
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 17, 2014 - 10:56pm PT
say there say The, didn't you approve of what you said?

The Sleeping Giant is awakening. The Giant that most if any of you fuktards here on the Taco know anything about. Nothing.

John M

climber
Apr 17, 2014 - 10:59pm PT
As long as I'm under attack, I will return fire….

you are one tiresome dude. you never own up to the times you have attacked people relentlessly. Then when it comes back to bite you in the ass, you whine like a baby.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:04pm PT
I have also asked some ST Posteurs to quit bullying Ron Anderson.

I Can't remember defending any other right-wing wackados.

I didn't think they needed defending.

Ron can be an asset to ST, or a pain in the ass. He does tend to have his own version of reality, likely derived from Fox News, and his close circle of friends that also watch Fox News.

I had to stop having breakfast meetings with my 8 year older brother, and his Fox News watching friends at the Choss Creek Kafe.

It is a real downer to start the day with people who do nothing but bitch about our great country.

Whatever happened to appreciating America, the land of opportunity?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:04pm PT
I'm not going to go into this John. You know damn well I get attacked and slandered here.

I can take take it. Just don't f*#king piss and whine when I throw it back!

You attack, I'll return fire. I will defend myself. Wouldn't you?

This whole idea of not talking sh#t is worthless. You know you will, and I'll defend my positions.

We are ideologically opposed. That's just the way it is. Live with it.

EDIT:
Whatever happened to appreciating America, the land of opportunity?

Isn't that the real problem? This is only an opportunity for illegal immigrants and welfare cases. That is kinda the problem....
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:09pm PT
So many idiots on this forum. Listen, you think you can join an anti-US government armed militia and be treated like a normal human being? Acceptance of this extremist crap is ruining the country.

Don't accept them. Call them out at every opportunity. They are the enemy. Ron, bluebells, chieftain, et al, go to hell!
John M

climber
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:10pm PT
Blue,

I never said that you don't get attacked. I know that you do and I have asked people to chill, and I don't expect you to take everything sitting down. But you fail to acknowledge what an ass you have been in calling people all kinds of things. People who didn't' attack you. You rant and rave, and then wonder why people go after you. So it becomes the pot calling the kettle black when you complain. You are part of the problem. Not the solution.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:14pm PT
Could someone please translate Blurring and the Chuff, I don't speak PTSDbonics
John M

climber
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:15pm PT
Part of them were making fun of the occupy movement and then complain when their protests are derided.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:15pm PT
It's Fox. Really. These mental midgets get it all from Fox.
John M

climber
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:17pm PT
Philo.. you complain about the militia guys ramping up the inflammatory rhetoric. How do your posts help to dial back the tension? You seem to be egging people on so that they will get pissed.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:19pm PT
Why is the giant sleeping in the first place?

tuckered out from harassing the villagers?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:20pm PT
Blue,

I never said that you don't get attacked. I know that you do and I have asked people to chill, and I don't expect you to take everything sitting down. But you fail to acknowledge what an ass you have been in calling people all kinds of things. People who didn't' attack you. You rant and rave, and then wonder why people go after you. So it becomes the pot calling the kettle black when you complain. You are part of the problem. Not the solution.

This is typical leftist bullshit and trying to effeminize males. You want no conflict to yourself. You want no dispute to your solutions, and when there are you call us rednecks, racists, or whatever....

You want to weaken the hostility to obvious callous gov't by calling us hostile. You try to call us hateful and mean.

I will not be nice when my gov't openly lies to me, tries to force healthcare on me when I was fine before, when they try to disarm me.

I will be angry, and I will not relent. Anger is necessary sometimes.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:20pm PT
"Dialing back the tension"?? What, you think we're suddenly going to get along? Why? What could we possibly agree on? Why would I want to agree with a member of a militia? I think they should be locked up, then I can talk to them through the bars of their cell. Preferably, a padded one.
John M

climber
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:23pm PT

This is typical leftist bullshit and trying to effeminize males. You want no conflict to yourself. You want no dispute to your solutions, and when there are you call us rednecks, racists, or whatever….

so then stop complaining that people attack you or the chief. Or are you just a pussy? You can dish it but you can't take it?
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:24pm PT
^^^ straight from Limbaugh. Bluebells gets it from talk radio by day, Fox by night.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:24pm PT
Well John M as much as I value your tolerance much of me feels like Crankster. Call them out, just call them out. Advocating armed insurrection for such pathetic reasoning does not warrant too civil of a discourse. I wouldn't walk past an old woman getting mugged without at least speaking out.. What's the difference here? When it's wrong it's wrong.


So John M reading Blurring's response to your thoughtful post do you really think I should "tone it down"?
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:25pm PT
When this is all long forgotten there will be prosecutions of the guys pointing guns at federal agents / employees. The federal government has a long and unforgiving memory.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:25pm PT
Bluering! Re your response to my question:

Whatever happened to appreciating America, the land of opportunity?

Isn't that the real problem? This is only an opportunity for illegal immigrants and welfare cases. That is kinda the problem....


I've had an up and down life, but the government has kept its promises, and life if pretty darn good. I do believe in the American dream, and despite my dry and cynical humor, I am pretty optimistic, as are my friends.

Things are mostly good here in rural America, and from what I see and read, in the rest of this great nation.

My glass is mostly full, and it appears YOU THINK! your glass is bitter and nearly empty.

I am sorry that you, and some other bitter people, think that way, because you have accepted the dark side of a very bright future.

Life's good in rural America, if you aren't living a downer life!

ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:28pm PT
And all of that white trash will be represented by federal public defenders, at taxpayer expense!
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:29pm PT
Oh fer fux sake. Now we're going to have to listen to these delicate little flower tough gais bitch and moan about how they are victims? So mistreated, so oppressed. Cry me a f*#king river.

Blurring, I'm an engineer. I operate on facts and data. If I operated on emotion and conjecture (that's some first class projection, btw..golf clap for you) planes would crash, bridges collapse, water treatment plants fail and people would DIE because of it. I don't have the luxury of operating on emotion.

You come on here and ceaselessly spout your ignorant, demonstrably false bullsh#t. Then moan about it when people call you out. When proven false, you dig in rather than accepting FACT. Mexico is in South America...remember that one? After being corrected multiple times, you still dug in, insisting, despite being 100% wrong, that you actually were correct.

There is a word for that. Several words actually. Moron. Dipsh#t. Numpty ass clown. Knuckle-dragging mouth breather. Should I go on? Or will you cry like a little girl? So angry, so impotent, sofa king stupid.

But you did "think about" joining the Border Patrol...such a patriot, truly serving our country by thinking about all the things you might have done if they didn't require actual sacrifice and dedication. I guess slapping that yellow ribbon on the bumper and gargling Chuff's nutsack will have to suffice. Stand tall PATRIOT!!

And don't ever f*#king lecture me about serving my country. I get up everyday and go to work, 15 years worth of those days at this point, serving my country. GFY.

Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:29pm PT
And that was coined by a certain Japanese admiral on the day Pearl Harbor was attacked.

Not sure how a post that started off with "Part of the giant is too stoned to know what day it is" wound up with Japanese admirals, but sometimes things just have a way of wandering from here to there.

Reminds me of R L Burnside wandering from Japanese generals on the eve of Pearl Harbor to who might have been knocking on Eve's back door when Adam was down at the crags...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Makes about as much sense as anything on this thread. And sounds a whole lot better.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:29pm PT
Fritz, a breath of fresh air.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:30pm PT
Phukin Nuke-em. Send them Cowpokers back to the Stone Age. That old dawg ain't no good to hissef neither.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:30pm PT
When this is all long forgotten there will be prosecutions of the guys pointing guns at federal agents / employees. The federal government has a long and unforgiving memory.

Check your facts, Johnson. It was the Feds that pointed weapons on women and children and threatened to fire. Not the way you're portraying it.

Check your facts.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:33pm PT
^^^Check your shorts I'm sure you sharted.
John M

climber
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:35pm PT
I'm not saying don't stand up to them. Of course we need to stand up to them. But if you add to the inflammatory rhetoric, then how do you expect things to change? What does name calling accomplish? Do you think Blue will change now that I have suggested he might be a pussy? Nope.. he won't change. An ass kicking might change him for a few minutes, but I doubt even that would get through. So if I keep pushing him, then what will happen? It will just keep getting uglier and uglier. So I have to ask myself, do I want to be a part of that? Making it uglier? Or can I find another way? I got 3 emails today from people who say they are tired of this kind of fighting.

crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:36pm PT
If you defend these domestic terrorists you deserve any amount of contempt and vitriol aimed at you. Bunch of cowards.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:37pm PT
Shame may change him. Just like the town drunk in the public stocks having to endure the shame and ridicule and rotten tomatoes of the aggrieved locals eventually got the message.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:40pm PT
Tell it to the judge. Those guys will do time after fox news has long, long forgotten about this.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:40pm PT
Oh fer fux sake. Now we're going to have to listen to these delicate little flower tough gais bitch and moan about how they are victims? So mistreated, so oppressed. Cry me a f*#king river.

Are you so politically neutered you can't even utter the word 'gay'? WTF is GAIS? You are a weak person.

Blurring, I'm an engineer. I operate on facts and data. If I operated on emotion and conjecture (that's some first class projection, btw..golf clap for you) planes would crash, bridges collapse, water treatment plants fail and people would DIE because of it. I don't have the luxury of operating on emotion.

Well, you do seem to be emotional and assume you are the only one capable of logic when you turn that switch on.

You come on here and ceaselessly spout your ignorant, demonstrably false bullsh#t. Then moan about it when people call you out. When proven false, you dig in rather than accepting FACT. Mexico is in South America...remember that one? After being corrected multiple times, you still dug in, insisting, despite being 100% wrong, that you actually were correct.


As a logical man, surely you'd provide the thread that illustrated the context of my refernce, right? Wouldn't that be the genuine thing to do to prove your point, or would that be disingenuous on your part? Since you're right, you should be willing to do this, right?

There is a word for that. Several words actually. Moron. Dipsh#t. Numpty ass clown. Knuckle-dragging mouth breather. Should I go on? Or will you cry like a little girl? So angry, so impotent, sofa king stupid.


You make my point....

But you did "think about" joining the Border Patrol...such a patriot, truly serving our country by thinking about all the things you might have done if they didn't require actual sacrifice and dedication. I guess slapping that yellow ribbon on the bumper and gargling Chuff's nutsack will have to suffice. Stand tall PATRIOT!!

Nah, I went with supporting US audio manufacturing here in the US to save our jobs.

And don't ever f*#king lecture me about serving my country. I get up everyday and go to work, 15 years worth of those days at this point, serving my country. Technically, I'm a gulf war vet, with the National Defense Service Medal. I say "technically" because since I was never actually shot at, I don't claim Vet's preference despite every right to do so and the NDSM on my 214. Meanwhile, only thing you've ever served is a heaping helping of DERP on a platter. GFY.

You're a very angry man. Have a nice life, if you can. God bless ya, brah!
Robb

Social climber
It's Ault or Nunn south of Shy Annie
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:42pm PT
Ekat

I would have emailed this to you if possible. As stated, I did not mean to come across as defending improper behavior. Rather I was trying to say that as someone who has had many friends who as they got older after their service were affected by their experiences. I am eternally gratefull for your dad and those who served to give me and my family our freedom-seriously, not platitudes. No offense meant. I apoligize if that's how I came across. I've experienced the temptation to go sour myself after what I went through-I try to resist going there.

Enjoy the Big Sky

Robb
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:43pm PT
Oh God what a tiny little thing you are Blue, as significant as a mote of dust.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:44pm PT
Jesus Chuff you are a pompous blowfish.


Do some of you actually believe that only military service matters, that only warriors keep you free?
CA.Timothy

climber
California
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:46pm PT
outside observers wanna know why the chief deleted all his posts on this topic for the last two days...
John M

climber
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:47pm PT
Are you so politically neutered you can't even utter the word 'gay'? WTF is GAIS? You are a weak person.

Okay.. I give up. have at it guys. Blue.. . It was a typing mistake which he has corrected. "gals" not gays..

you are serving america by keeping your job? good lord.

sorry God, but this is hopeless. I'm out..
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:48pm PT
You know nothing of me don't even think you have a clue.
If you had a shred of a clue you'd STFU now.

crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:48pm PT
Truth is, Ron, blue and the gang are the sick uncle in the closet of the far right of the Republican Party. Like the abortion clinic bombers and the survivalist and the Waco waco's. They are pariahs of their own party. You see any conservative candidates running to embrace Bundy? Only the most extreme members. They know they can't win elections embracing a nutcase like Bundy. Have you seen any interviews with him? Heard him at a microphone? He's a nut, like his defenders here.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:49pm PT
This is really funny...the gun-toking tough guys are whining like little babies.

I take full responsibly for what I write and say. No one made me do.

I guess you have to blow the head off of some other human being in a war created by some dumb ass god-told-me so president to serve your country.


A lot of us didn't buy into that bullshit back in the 60's and we are not buying into it now.


rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:50pm PT
But wait ....There's more...Fritz...Is that a 14 inch bar or are you just happy to see me...? rj
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:50pm PT
OhCowpie MOOvement I caint quit ewe.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:51pm PT
John, he politically-corrected his post because he's a pussy. He meant 'gays' but just doesn't have the balls to post it.

He took the weak-route, and caved....

Oh God what a tiny little thing you are Blue, as significant as a mote of dust.

You're quite the specimen too, Philo. Nice job. God loves it when you use his name in vain.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:54pm PT
crankster! Re your thoughts on Bundy being too wacky for the Republicans to embrace:

You see any conservative candidates running to embrace Bundy? Only from the most extreme members. They know they can't win elections embracing a nutcase like Bundy. Have you seen any interviews with him? Heard him at a microphone? He's a nut, like his defenders here.


I hope you are right, but I suspect you are wrong. Maybe he will even replace Clint Eastwood on stage at the next Republican National Convention.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:55pm PT
Hey Blue Phuck your god. Any God that would condone nimrods like you that advocate armed insurrection for a dead beat melon farmer should be consigned to the ash heap of insignificance.



And ElCap I salute your honesty and integrity.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:56pm PT
Chief is that really the best you can do?

Weak sauce.


Little big man strikes again.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:59pm PT
Yes Bob that really is the best he can do. Sad pathetic impotent little anti-American facist.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:59pm PT
It was a typing mistake which he has corrected

No Moosie, no typing mistake. And has nothing to do with "gays"...that's Blurring's closeted curious side coming out. It's intert00bz slang for "tough guys", aka "tuff gais", aka "tuff guise".

How the hell you get gay out of that is only known within the feeble mind of the resident homophobe.
John M

climber
Apr 17, 2014 - 11:59pm PT
John, he politically-corrected his post because he's a pussy. He meant 'gays' but just doesn't have the balls to post it.

Elcap doesn't have the balls to use the word gay????.. that is some funny. He changed it before you posted dude. He meant gals. you really think people who are liberal are chickens. Good lord. I just have to shake my head.

edit: aw okay Elcap.. you are right. its where his mind goes.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:02am PT
Hey Blue Phuck your god. Any God that would condone nimrods like you that advocate armed insurrection for a dead beat melon farmer should be consigned to the ash heap of insignificance.

Are you talking about the BLM? They were the only ones who drew weapons on women and children. No militia member drew a weapon.

And you can tell my God to Phuck off, but I pity you.

EDIT:
No Moosie, no typing mistake. And has nothing to do with "gays"...that's Blurring's closeted curious side coming out. It's intert00bz slang for "tough guys", aka "tuff gais".

Still gay....are you going to post a selfie now?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:05am PT
I care not for or about your pity nor your superstitous belief in a bearded white gai in the sky.
You need to PROVE your claims like no OhCowpie MOOvement anarchists pointed a gun.


If the the Obama administration was this tyrannical beast that you wingnutz fear then instead o standing down to reassess there would have been a civilian slaughter in Nevadastan. I guess FuX news musta missed the blood bath. huh? Some of the simpler minded among you think the Feds backed off in fear of your little pea shooters. BWAHAHAHA! If Obama was the antichrist you say he is why didn't he just scramble a few out of Nellis and smoke the whole f*#king looser lot.


Now I suppose you will attack Obama on the grounds that he is too much of a scared "shet"less pussy to attack you.
Robb

Social climber
It's Ault or Nunn south of Shy Annie
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:07am PT
Hey Philo,
Being a bit of a hypocrite wih your drama melt-down a few years ago?
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:07am PT
From the conservative National Review:

"When can one refuse to obey the law without expecting to bring the whole thing down? Certainly such instances exist: I daresay that I would not stand idly by quoting John Adams if a state reintroduced slavery or herded a religious group into ovens or even indulged in wholesale gun confiscation. But Bundy’s case is not remotely approaching these thresholds. Are we to presume that if the government is destroying one’s livelihood or breaking one’s ties with the past, one can revolt? If so, one suspects that half the country would march on Washington, with scimitars drawn, and that West Virginia would invade the Environmental Protection Agency.

Speaking in 1838, Abraham Lincoln argued,

When I so pressingly urge a strict observance of all the laws, let me not be understood as saying there are no bad laws, nor that grievances may not arise, for the redress of which, no legal provisions have been made. — I mean to say no such thing.

Nor I. As government expands and civil society retreats, bad laws pile atop bad laws, and the cause for dissent is magnified and deepened. Cliven Bundy has been dealt a raw hand by a system that is deaf to his grievances and ham-fisted in its response. But this is a republic, dammit — and those who hope to keep it cannot pick and choose the provisions with which they are willing to deign to comply."
John M

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:11am PT
great post Crankster..
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:13am PT
Locker & RJ!

Re Locker's comment & RJ's question on a previous POSITIVE POST:

I agree 100 fuking percent!!!...
&
...Fritz...Is that a 14 inch bar or are you just happy to see me...? rj


YES! I LOVE AMERICA!

WHAT'S UP WITH THE HATERS ON THIS THREAD?

I've had an up and down life, but the government has kept its promises, and life if pretty darn good. I do believe in the American dream, and despite my dry and cynical humor, I am pretty optimistic, as are my friends.

Things are mostly good here in rural America, and from what I see and read, the same applies to the rest of this great nation.

My glass is mostly full, and it is the right wing posteurs on this thread that believe your glasses are bitter and nearly empty.

I am sorry that you, and some other bitter people, think that way, because you have accepted the dark side of a very bright future.

Life's good in rural America, if you aren't living a downer life!

& RJ---the chainsaw has an 18" blade, anything shorter would be un-American.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:13am PT
I care not for or about your pity nor your superstitous belief in a bearded white gai in the sky.
You need to PROVE your claims like no OhCowpie MOOvement anarchists pointed a gun.

There's plenty of video available, dude. Look it up.

You are one of the nastiest people on this forum, next to ElCap and Norton. You mother-f*#kers come off as liberal peace-niks, but you are nasty and hateful.

At least I don't pretend to be nice. But those who know me know where my character lies and how I roll. I can be nice, and usually intend to be, but I offer no guarantees.

I judge people on their character. That's all.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:17am PT
When you get the wingnutz to flap around the yard every one can see they can't fly.



Robb

Social climber
It's Ault or Nunn south of Shy Annie

Apr 17, 2014 - 09:07pm PT
Hey Philo,
Being a bit of a hypocrite wih your drama melt-down a few years ago?


Why don't you tell me about it.
CA.Timothy

climber
California
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:19am PT
Hey Chief, how come you deleted all of your posts from the last two days? Inquiring minds want to know.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:19am PT
Still gay....are you going to post a selfie now?

Would that get you hot Blurring? Give you something to stroke to? Just thinking about my rock-hard, sweaty, sculpted abs...gets the warmth just flushing and starts a tingling down there don't it? It's ok Blurring, despite what your altar-boy raping Priests told you that the sky-man said, being gay is perfectly normal and natural. Get in a room of 20, there will be one there, statistically. It's not a lifestyle choice.

My middle uncle was gay. Lots of my mom's co-workers. I've had quite a few climbing partners who are. A good friend at the gym and another at work who are. Good folks. Smart, caring. All of whom could take you in fist fight. And several of whom are serving their country as we speak.

You seem to think gay is defective or shameful somehow? And you have the temerity to whine about "tolerance" and oppression of YOU and your parade of ignorance? Ye gods, the DERP is unbelievable.

Sorry I can't help you explore your closeted fantasies though, I'm hetero.
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:20am PT
Was going to ask...

You will never understand. Never.
Jackass.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:21am PT
C.A. it's because he inadvertently posted a pic of he and his tubby buddies doing a sacred navyboi initiation ritual. And he had to pull it in the name of National Security.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:21am PT
Eat your words. Militia dude Eric Parker.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:23am PT
Chief....don't blame it on Phil, Johnson and Nixon are long gone.
CA.Timothy

climber
California
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:24am PT
should I stop asking Chief?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:26am PT
Ron....A 925...? I have a 1050 with a 36 inch bar....I always thought you were compensating....rj
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:26am PT
Would that get you hot Blurring? Give you something to stroke to? Just thinking about my rock-hard, sweaty, sculpted abs...gets the warmth just flushing and starts a tingling down there don't it? It's ok Blurring, despite what your altar-boy raping Priests told you that the sky-man said, being gay is perfectly normal and natural. Get in a room of 20, there will be one there, statistically. It's not a lifestyle choice.

My middle uncle was gay. Lots of my mom's co-workers. I've had quite a few climbing partners who are. A good friend at the gym and another at work who are. Good folks. Smart, caring. All of whom could take you in fist fight. And several of whom are serving their country as we speak.

You seem to think gay is defective or shameful somehow? And you have the temerity to whine about "tolerance" and oppression of YOU and your parade of ignorance? Ye gods, the DERP is unbelievable.

Nice recovery from your 'typo'. I got no problem with gays. Or "homos", or whatever I'm supposed to call them now.

Apparently people like like you do.

You can sh#t all over my God all you want, but I would issue caution in doing that.

Do you have any faith, I'm curious? Or is it all about you and your special abs?
CA.Timothy

climber
California
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:27am PT
Comeonman.....10 hours worth of writing gets axed. I just want a one sentence response....
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:27am PT




You are one of the nastiest people on this forum, next to ElCap and Norton. You mother-f*#kers come off as liberal peace-niks, but you are nasty and hateful.

Yes I am one of the nastiest motherphuckers on this forum, But I only dish it out to those who have gone out of their ignorant way to earn the honor.

The Derp is strong with this one.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:29am PT
CA Timothy....check FOIA...
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:29am PT
Who needs god when you have abs?

Hey bluering, why doesn't god help you get the sand out of your vagina? Surely he has all the answers?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:30am PT
Was going to ask...

You will never understand. Never.
Jackass.

You need to refer who this was directed at.....What?
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:31am PT
Ron: Re your post on chainsaw bar length.

edit: Fritz thats a nice hedge trimmer. Im old school- a homelite 925-B with a 42" and 36" bar. Skip tooth and full compliment chains in semi chisel.


Yeah! No trees on the ranchette, or across a road I need to drive, that an 18" bar can't work through.

I had a college friend/room-mate, that dropped out and went back to logging in North Idaho. A fellow logger dropped a tree on him. It was a nice funeral. These things happen in logging towns, fairly often.

Oh! I was through that area last fall and all the log mills (that you say are extinct) that I remember from the 1970's were still in business. http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2228541Here's a link to the ST story, with lots of logging in evidence.

My favorite chainsaw story concerns a logger that worked with my older (redneck) brother. He was walking down a tree that he had just dropped,cutting off the branches, and slipped. He knew he was supposed to throw his chainsaw the opposite way, but it hit a branch and took his hand off on the rebound.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:31am PT
Who needs god when you have abs?

Hey bluering, why doesn't god help you get the sand out if your vagina? Surely he has all the answers?

I think I have all I need, what am I lacking in your opinion?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:32am PT
The color of COWARD...Derple
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:34am PT
Bluering....How much did the procedure cost....?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:35am PT
I'm asking Anita if she's a God-fearing gal, that's all. Where am I wrong?
John M

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:38am PT
Chief, some ex sheriff who was part of the militia said that they were strategizing to put all the women up front so that they would be shot first.

this page has a short video of the guy saying it.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/15/richard-mack-_n_5154606.html
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:38am PT
You fear everything Blur even your god is to be afraid of.
Perfect Derp..



Note to Chuff, watch yer side walls there matey.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:39am PT
Actually, Chief, I heard (unsubstantiated) caller today on radio show claim that when when the horse-riders closed in on the cattle corrals, that the FEDS said they would shoot.

That's when they women and kids stood in front of the horsers.

The Feds stood down.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:40am PT
Derple
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:42am PT
What's the matter Chuff do you now regret killing babies?


Disconnect between a real cause and a temper tantrum?
dirtbag

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:44am PT
There is some really funny sh#t here.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:45am PT
^^^ Yes my phun meter has been overloaded.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:48am PT
I can see that all is safe here in Tacoville. The smarty pants are destroying the guns n' godders using pictures and arrows. Prince of Peace, my ass.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:48am PT
I'm collecting donations to help purchase rocks for the Bundy protesters to toss at the BLM....And some gortex Vagina guards...Any takers...?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:48am PT
WHy does Anita make provocative accusations and then dance away???
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:48am PT
Spew on Posteurs.

Heidi has convinced me to quit trying to save the right-winged dammed-----tonight.

Sometimes you jest have to let the crazy/paranoid people have fun.

anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:50am PT
Derple... lulz

Da Derp Dee Derp Da Teetley Derpee Derpee Dumb
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz CA
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:51am PT
All the while the CHP escort for that bus of returning Nam vets watched in pain.
You disgust me with your Baby Killing expletive. I lost a brother in Nam, 14 months out of Annapolis. I was an adamant anti war activist. Believe me, you could be totally against the war being raged while having deep compassion for the men and women that were serving. You came back whole. Thank you for your service but don't think you know the true meaning of war and patriotism.
Susan
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:51am PT
You Choss Creekers know how to party...
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:51am PT


Apr 17, 2014 - 09:51pm PT
All the while the CHP escort for that bus of returning Nam vets watched in pain.
You disgust me with your Baby Killing expletive. I lost a brother in Nam, 14 months out of Annapolis. I was an adamant anti war activist. Believe me, you could be totally against the war being raged while having deep compassion for the men and women that were serving. You came back whole. Thank you for your service but don't think you know the true meaning of war and patriotism.
Susan
Thank you Susan couldn't have said it better.


Sorry Jim I didn't know my purpose here was for you to like me. Chuff baselessly accused me and I volleyed back. Frankly it was an easy lob.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:54am PT
Sir I will endeavor to persevere.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:54am PT
Elevate your game

How do you do that when yer mud wrasslin'?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:58am PT
Sorry about your bro, Susan. I didn't know that...

May he rest in peace.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:58am PT
It is only the rightwwingnutz, rugged individualists that they are, who whine and cry about mean attacks against them. Pfffft.

They dish out better than they receive and the are masters of mirroring and double speak. None of the Libtardasoruses throw the panty twisting fits they do.


I took a whole lot more heat when Israel was attacking Gaza and I was passionately arguing for the unpopular position of peace and justice for Palestinians.
All the wingers went after me like a pack of rats. I sure don't remember much support against the mob attack back then. I stood my ground and kept a tone of civility for as long as I could. But it was that experience that taught me a great deal about the nature of this forum, and how civility and rational discourse can only go so far with the truly hate filled.



Same rats now want to defend Bundy and his baby body armor.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:09am PT
Hiya Bluering. Why doncha come over here and sit on my lap, Pilgrim.

It's funny how you homophiliacs try to demean people to push your homo-erotic agenda. You have to push down real men in our history to push this homo bullsh#t.

Is it any wonder that people like myself are offended?

It's actually very telling that you take the most manly personalities and try to label them otherwise.

Keep trying, girls. Just be careful what you wish for.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:11am PT





You have to push down real men in our history to push this homo bullsh#t
That sounds so brokeback molehill.

What manly men are being pushed down in your mind?
John M

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:12am PT
Blue, you started it. You said he was too chicken to call you gay..

do you ever listen to yourself?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:13am PT
I took a whole lot more heat when Israel was attacking Gaza and I was passionately arguing for the unpopular position of peace and justice for Palestinians.

Did the cattle-ranchers fire a f*#king shot? Did they fire over 200 rockets at the BLM?

No.

Shut up. no comparison.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:15am PT
Chief is the nature of your pervasive anger Survivor's regret?





As usual Blurring your cognitive dissonance and poor reading comprehension have you missing the point again.

Did the cattle-ranchers fire a f*#king shot? Did they fire over 200 rockets at the BLM?

No.

Shut up. no comparison.

I wasn't comparing the situations but rather the behaviors of certain posters.
No Comparison. So shut up.
overwatch

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:16am PT
Now assclown is picking on fritz?
John M

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:19am PT
You didn't understand her Chief. Try again.. you are Edit: "implying" that everyone who was agains the war called vets baby killer. I know that I didn't. My brother served. My mother and I protested the war. We never called a vet "baby killer". That would have been terrible in my eyes and I am very sorry for any vet that had to go through that.
overwatch

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:19am PT
I say ooohhh to toe
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:22am PT
Thanks John M. But I have to say nice try it won't matter or make a difference to what delusional people believe.

If Chuff said that crap to my face I would slap him with his own purse and he would deserve it.
overwatch

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:26am PT
In all fairness you should say try because there is no telling for sure
CA.Timothy

climber
California
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:27am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

cows, rights, Israel, and the war in Viet-f*#king-Nam!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:28am PT


It's true read it for your self.
http://www.businessinsider.com/veterans-suicide-2014-3
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:33am PT
Locker guy...That's right dude...Camel filtered keeps the sand out...
Blowboarder

Boulder climber
Back in the mix
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:35am PT
So ignorance. Much stupidity. Very anger. Such pettiness.
overwatch

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:37am PT
those are the women...ha!
overwatch

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:38am PT
Crickets...
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:42am PT
You flag waving right wing neo-con teabaggers have a hell of a lot of gaul to continually vote for and march in support of Republicans and their Billionaire overlords who repeatedly send American boys and girls to die in wars of Corporate Imperialism then discard them to the streets when their killing is done cutting veteran benefits for billionaire tax breaks and bankrupting our country then blame those of us who fought against such abuses as being less American because we aren't bearded warriors killing brown people in foreign lands.
overwatch

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:44am PT
And it happens every f*#king time

I am no libtard or pubtard...just a tard
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:45am PT
Precisely... where are the women Philo???



They are probably shopping for beer and cheeze whiz at Wallmart.
Clearly no independent thinking self respecting women of character and integrity would be caught dead with these brokeback bunker bois.


I'd rather march with the hot ladies of the Peace and Justice center than hang with the toothless blubber babes of the OhCowpie MOOvement.
overwatch

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:47am PT
As the professional you are, locker, I value your opinion...too obvious?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:47am PT
philo....gaul is sand in latin....rj
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:49am PT
oooooo frownclown smack down LMAO.
John M

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:50am PT
Posted this earlier Chief, this is what Philo was referring to on the women comment.

Chief, some ex sheriff who was part of the militia said that they were strategizing to put all the women up front so that they would be shot first.

this page has a short video of the guy saying it.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/15/richard-mack-_n_5154606.html

its a short video Chief. Its not that hard to check..
overwatch

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:50am PT
Now there is something wrong with tea?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:52am PT
Chuff can't you read you simpleton John M has shown you the link I referenced several times.
What exactly is your problem you little pip squeak?



Keep slinging them feces monkeyboi.
overwatch

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:53am PT
Locker If I could open my skull I would take out my brain and wash it under the fawcett if it would remove that image

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:55am PT


If I could open my skull I would take out my brain and wash it under the fawcett if it would remove that image


That is provided you have one. You assume too much.





Chief the video shows the Koch Sucker in his own words. Refute the truth if you will it's the TeaPublican way.
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz CA
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:57am PT
I am sorry SC for your loss. You may not believe that, and that is your choice.
No need to try and get in my head. I do believe you. My bitterness was left behind long ago. That was my choice and my way of honoring sacrifice. We all have free will to choose that which will haunt us or that which will carry us forward. Grace, sir, grace.
Susan
overwatch

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:58am PT
Philo firing at everyone
John M

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:59am PT
here you go Chief, not that hard to click on

[Click to View YouTube Video]
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 02:02am PT
You seem to know a lot about "shet"ChuffO
But you could care less for the truth.


No one said there WERE women on the front lines only that is was their strategy. Live with it dipshet.
overwatch

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 02:02am PT
I don't know how you got the idea my post was directed at you but blaze away
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 02:05am PT
John M

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 02:06am PT
Chief, it doesn't matter who shot the video. It matters what it shows. Its a short video. All Philo was doing was referring to what the man in the video said. thats all. there is no editorializing in the video. Its just a comment made by an ex sheriff who was actually there.
overwatch

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 02:06am PT
Feelo
John M

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 02:08am PT
Locker.. did you perform at the big party in Josh? you coulda been a star.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 02:10am PT
Yes oh course I am Chuff and you're Mother Terressa.


So what's your point? We can all watch the disintegration of the validity of your cause. So what are you going to do? Y'all don't have the balls for a fire fight that isn't against unarmed school kids or theater goers. So whatcha gunna do when the come for you bad bois bad bois.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 02:13am PT
What a Gas
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 02:19am PT
Y'all loves you some good ol right wing law n order authoritarianism ceptin when it's a cows life. so here's a gift for ewe.











Yes I am threatening you Pipsqueak. It's so obvious isn't it. A reminder to post smaller pictures and you are ready to gun me down eh?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 02:21am PT
Dream of the Cowboi this time the injun iz gettin' ewe rye-led
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 02:27am PT
Can't he read?
Are you that thick?

Side walls refer to the width of the page.
Giant pics blow out the side wall and make reading inconvenient for user with slow internets.
The "Matey" was a good natured ribbing for your Navy days.
If that constitutes a threat in your mind, and not seeing mine and Locker's response to you constitutes your cognition then you probably should have your guns taken away.

Or should I have typed "prolly" sos ewed unnerstan?



Oh Goodness Chuffles knows what I look like when I'm alpine climbing. What ever shall a helpless peacenik like myself to do? Pipsqueak should I paint a bull's eye on my new helmet for you?
Are You threatening Me?

Today is a good day to die. Bring it on little Huff n Chuff.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 02:34am PT
Pretty amazing PHILO how 90% or more of your 1483 photo content contribution to this "Climbing site" is nothing but political hate bullshet.
I do that to keep the riff raff away from the "toe" shots.



And yet I somehow have how many more climbing TRs than you?


For the record TRs isn't a threat genius it refers to Trip Reports you should consider posting one or at least check them out.
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Apr 18, 2014 - 02:35am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz CA
Apr 18, 2014 - 02:39am PT

"Grace, sir, grace."
Many of us lost that a long time ago.... a long time ago.
But I respect your request.

Lost? Or exercised your free will or "choice" to abandon it? "Losing" something simply indicates your lack of personal responsibility to take ownership that something just wasn't worth your effort. It's easy to be bitter.
Time to move on. Really, the only direction is forward.

Susan

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 02:42am PT
Again. What a COWard.
John M

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 02:42am PT
thanks Susan..

some sanity

looks like Chief is deleting most of his posts again..

Good night Chief. I really do wish you well.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 02:42am PT
Yup He's pullin' a Palin. Cuttin' n Runnin'.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 02:52am PT
Has Chuff left the building?
Was it something I said?
Hope n Change.


Meanwhile death and tragedy on Everest as a high altitude avalanche kills many. Many still missing. Horrible news.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 02:54am PT
So how about that FOX news video of the retired Sheriff?








Meanwhile death and tragedy on Everest as a high altitude avalanche kills many. Many still missing. Horrible news.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 02:59am PT
Tthe BLM did it from their surveillance drone over his neighborhood right before it got shot down. They were trying to save him the embarrassment of being proven both wrong and stupid.


If you are so disturbed by the paranoia of government overreach and tyranny that you feel compelled to take up arms in an arachist militia against the government agencies mandated to do their job then it's not Country that has failed.


Most of the current defenders of the Bundy Bunch are the same folks who cheered and marched in lock step with the Reagan and Bush admministration policies that got US in this sh#t can to begin with. Remember when after nineeleven when your fervent patriotism and blood lust were at the boiling point? "Kill The Ragheads", "Nuke the sand niggers back to the Stone Age", "Turn the camel f*#kers into smoldering glass" F*#k the Ayrabs". You were all only too eager to send the Our Government off to kill kill kill brown people. Now you want to kill kill kill Our Government. Schizophrenia is fun.
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz CA
Apr 18, 2014 - 03:07am PT
That of course was most certainly directed to... Philo.

Geezsh...you take a little ole lady's words and twist 'em all around to suit your objectives. I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday and I've had plenty of experience with solar salesmen telling me what to think.
Do what you need to do.
'Night boys.

Susan

dirtbag

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 03:08am PT
Holy sheeet John M.

I just clicked on that Faux News video you posted.

What a kook!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 09:00am PT
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 18, 2014 - 10:17am PT
it seems the chief chose to Clean House and delete a whole lot of his posts

don't know why all of a sudden he would do that, maybe his poop photo charged him up

could it be the fear of Deactivation for Inappropriate posts got the chief in Delete Mode?

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 10:31am PT
What is the preferred method cutting chickensh#t?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 18, 2014 - 10:32am PT
Damn..I must have miss something good last night.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 10:33am PT
Bob it was a hoot out of Hooterville, the Pressure Cooker that is the Chuff overheated and went hissing off on a fit.
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Apr 18, 2014 - 10:34am PT
maybe I hurt his feelingz
WBraun

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 10:35am PT
dirtbag

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 10:36am PT
I don't see anything wrong with having second thoughts about posting something mean, then deleting it.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 10:36am PT
Anita you poked him with a big stick and now he is butt hurt.
WBraun

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 10:36am PT
WBraun

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 10:38am PT
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 10:39am PT
You flag waving right wing neo-con teabaggers have a hell of a lot of gaul to continually vote for and march in support of Republicans and their Billionaire overlords who repeatedly send American boys and girls to die in wars of Corporate Imperialism then discard them to the streets when their killing is done cutting veteran benefits for billionaire tax breaks and bankrupting our country then blame those of us who fought against such abuses as being less American because we aren't bearded warriors killing brown people in foreign lands.
WBraun

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 10:39am PT
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Apr 18, 2014 - 10:40am PT


jokes aside, it's good if people feel remorse & then delete their posts.
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Apr 18, 2014 - 10:41am PT

WBraun

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 10:41am PT
WBraun

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 10:43am PT
dirtbag

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 10:44am PT
True locker, we don't know what his motive was. But I'd like to think he felt guilty then self nuked.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 10:44am PT
How could there have been "second thoughts" when there wasn't even a thought first?
WBraun

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 10:45am PT
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 10:47am PT
Hey don't misunderestimate him.
WBraun

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 10:48am PT
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 10:50am PT
^^^ Hey is that the new BLM "Black Ops" Cow Catcher?
Quick shoot that thang down afores it cownaps again..
WBraun

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 10:50am PT
overwatch

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 10:51am PT
Mr. Braun, what is the story behind that picture?

Got it...thanks
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 10:51am PT
He really really likes Fabio.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 18, 2014 - 10:53am PT
Which brings us to other questions....the treatment of our vets when they do come home. Quite sad when you think about.

Cutting services to these folks and their families seems to be a criminal act in my mind.


I hold no ill will towards Chief, I just don't agree with him.
WBraun

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 10:53am PT
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 18, 2014 - 10:53am PT
Do they serve those at Lenny's....Denny's?
WBraun

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 10:56am PT
dirtbag

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 11:07am PT
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Apr 18, 2014 - 11:07am PT
Ron, seriously, I don't see how you can support this guy. He's a trespasser, a cheat and a freeloader. He got away with stealing from the taxpayer for 20 years, and now he's whining because he has to stop.

Even his own brother thinks he's a nutjob.
WBraun

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 11:08am PT
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 18, 2014 - 11:15am PT
Supporting anti-government domestic terrorists makes you a traitor.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 11:17am PT
Actually locker, I was late to the party and missed the 9-11:30 posts. Judging by the reactions they elicited I'm sure they were pretty bad.


Here's my $.02. I've basically stopped engaging him. Not entirely, but mostly. I'm guilty of taking shots at him. It's pretty obvious that he's got some very serious coping/mental health problems. He's experienced some truly awful sh#t during his time as a Seal that I can't even begin to imagine. That's not an excuse for him to be a raging, anti social, domineering as#@&%e--at all. At some point he probably will be banned--deservedly so. But wasting hours going round and round with him is truly a pointless endeavor and it feeds his darker tendencies. And I've seen some good qualities from him too.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Apr 18, 2014 - 11:18am PT
Ron, I read what you wrote. It doesn't change what's going on with Bundy. He's a crook working the system.

The BLM has many responsibilities, one of them is conservation. Some folks don't like that, but that's the way it is. They do the best they can.
WBraun

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 11:19am PT
WBraun

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 11:28am PT
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 18, 2014 - 11:28am PT
The bunkerville incident was just the match that lit a fuse about MANY OTHER issues.

Most notably a black democratic president who forces his massive health care bill down the throats of decent Merkins.

[Click to View YouTube Video]


The Garnish pay or bank accounts- trust me on that as ive been victim of the exact action.

You want them to garnish Cliven's cows?
WBraun

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 11:33am PT
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 18, 2014 - 11:35am PT
Yesterday i spoke with a BLM mananager
currently working for the Carson district and
he too was appalled at this incident and the
techniques employed by his own agency

Interesting. Because just the other day I spoke with an
uneducated mormon redneck currently gazing his cattle on
BLM land who is appalled that the far right has successfully
mobilized a group of armed idiots to defend a common criminal
who refuses to pay the very reasonable fees every other rancher
pays to graze their cattle on BLM land.
WBraun

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 11:36am PT
WBraun

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 11:37am PT
WBraun

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 11:42am PT
dirtbag

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 11:43am PT
Bundy had made several threats. You wouldn't have asked for backup, Ron?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 18, 2014 - 11:44am PT
Of course Bundy and his family had nothing to do with BLM reacting the way they did.

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 18, 2014 - 11:47am PT
"I've got a shotgun," Carol Bundy said.
"It's loaded and I know how to use it.
We're ready to do what we have to do,
but we'd rather win this in the court
of public opinion."

Grabbing another fistful of bacon,
Arden said he wants to be part of
any coming battle. His mother smiled.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 18, 2014 - 11:49am PT
Ron...who is the manager you talked to, I would like his name and phone number.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:00pm PT
I'll have to read that one.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:01pm PT
The ONLY occasion i had to have seriously armed back up on was to execute a warrant of a search and seizure on Indian lands against a family known for violence.

So the Bundys are different how? The BLM had multiple court orders to seize their cattle and were threatened with violence when they went to seize them. So, they called for backup. I'm sure it is somehow different in your mind... but only because you desperately want to support anything and everything that is anti-government, at least until Obama is out of office.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:03pm PT
This as#@&%e is nothing but a craze f*#king whack job.

"Bundy, whose ancestors have inhabited the disputed land since the 19th century, rejects this arrangement. The rancher, whose family did not respond to multiple interview requests from TIME, says he does not recognize federal authority over Nevada’s public land. “I abide by all state laws,” he said in a recent interview with the Los Angeles Times. “But I abide by almost zero federal laws.” He has warned that the impoundment of his cattle would spark a “range war,” and said in a court deposition that he would attempt to block a federal incursion, using “whatever it takes.”
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:08pm PT
Grabbing another fistful of bacon,
Arden said he wants to be part of
any coming battle. His mother smiled.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:14pm PT
Ron wrote: The ONLY occasion i had to have seriously armed back up on was to execute a warrant of a search and seizure on Indian lands against a family known for violence. That out of HUNDREDS of cases i was involved with.


You just made the case for the BLM.


Damn Ron...do you think out what you write here??


Also, can you give me the name of the manager at the BLM you talked too.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:16pm PT
I wonder how much bacon Ron and Chief eat?

Must be the bacon?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:17pm PT
The original BLM Rangers are damn lucky the crowd they were menacing didn't respond with violence, because it was well within their rights in that instance.

Remember, they were directly threatened with violence. "You're going to get bit" "You're going to get tazered". They had the tazers aimed and the dogs fired-up and snarling at the ends of their leashes.

No one is obligated to remain passive in the face of direct violent threats, no matter who's doing the threatening.

If law enforcement needs to issue any threat, it should be limited to "you're going to be arrested".

But they knew they didn't have a reason to arrest anybody, which is why the cops resorted to trying to push people around. When law enforcement moves away from enforcing laws, and becomes thugs, they forfeit any respect they may have earned in the past.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:30pm PT
Interesting perspective Chaz. One I haven't heard a single tea bagger use with respect to the use of violence by law enforcement during Occupy movement or the WTO protests.

I don't know the law all that well, but if you threaten a law enforcement officer with violence I'm pretty sure you can expect the same (plus some) in response.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 18, 2014 - 12:39pm PT
Ein Bild sagt mehr als tausend Worte
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:05pm PT
If you spoke out against that homeless mans murder in the desert and dont support the protesters in Nevada you HAVE contradicted yourself for other reasons .

speaking out against murder does not equate to supporting protestors. even by the looniest of logic.

and please...stop using the phrase 'false flagship.' ain't no such thang.

BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:12pm PT
chaz hates cops and is a first rate troll. ;D

I don't like "most" cops, either, but that isn't the situation here.

I tell ya, I have been waiting for a cop to pull me over or knock on my tent and hassle me. I am on pins and needles to assert my 4th amendment rights. I don't smoke weed or even drink anymore, so I know they wouldn't find anything, but if they ever ask to search, I will flatly refuse.

Cops will lie to your face trying to get you to say something. They don't care if they send an innocent guy to prison. Just watch an interrogation on the tube. I know how they would lie to BASE jumpers in order to get them to give up their buds. Lying is just a tact they take.

I don't have much respect for this.
perswig

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:19pm PT
I agree, zBrown; this thread's pretty entertaining, but WBraun's pics are a welcome respite.

Keep on keepin' on.
Dale
dirtbag

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 01:20pm PT
Good summary, F.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 18, 2014 - 02:13pm PT

Can you cite any US legal code or judicial precedent that permits anyone to engage a US officer with a firearm?

You don't lose your rights to self defense just because the aggressor is an LEO. But of course you have no right to self defense if you are resisting a lawful arrest.
I have no idea what happened here one way or the other--just making sure that no one is under the misapprehension that you don't have the right to self defense against an LEO, depending on the circumstances.
For example, here's a slightly interesting case supporting a criminal defendant's right of discovery to support his claim he was exercising his right of self defense against deputies who were in the process of arresting him using excessive force.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=15520905555230302925&q=%22self+defense%22+against+%22law+enforcement%22&hl=en&as_sdt=4006

As a matter of the way the world works, you're probably not gonna get real good results claiming self defense against an LEO unless you can show he was clearly acting way over the line.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 18, 2014 - 02:23pm PT
You don't lose your rights to self defense just because the aggressor is an LEO. But of course you have no right to self defense if you are resisting a lawful arrest.

its been 40 years since I was in law school, but yes I do think you lose any right of "self defense" when a LEO is engaging legally with you, correct me if this is untrue

regardless, I don't believe anyone was being arrested in Bundyland, were they?

except the cows...
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 18, 2014 - 02:39pm PT
Norton, I don't really understand your comment, so it's hard for me to "correct" you.
You seem to think you're disagreeing with me, but there's nothing inconsistent in our respective statements. Let me try again to clear up any confusion that you (or others) may have:

Depending on the circumstances, one may validly exercise his right of self-defense against an LEO (federal, state, UN, or otherwise). Those circumstances will be quite limited, and I have no idea if they were present in this rancher / BLM brouhaha, and whether anyone was assaulted or used legal self-defense.

I was merely concerned that a possible interpretation of Kos's statement could be something like "you have no right to self defense against a a federal officer." That statement, as I have phrased it, is incorrect.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 18, 2014 - 02:42pm PT
The Orange County D.A. said Kelly Thomas had a right to self defense - and every right in the world to resist with everything he had - when the cop who killed him said "see these fists? they're going to f*#k you up".
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 18, 2014 - 02:56pm PT
Yes, Chaz, that may be a good example of the point I was making.
I say "may" because these incidents are heavily fact specific, and I'm just not sure what happened in the case you're referring to (although I recall the case generally, and I'm not disputing your characterization of it).
That may be a good example of where an LEO had the right to make an arrest, but the LEO began using illegal excessive force, thereby invoking a right of self-defense on the part of the putative arrestee.

I know many of the statists on this site are upset with the laws of self defense in the US (which vary somewhat depending on the jurisdiction) and the current state of our 2nd Amendment jurisprudence, but "they are what they are," at least until they're changed.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 18, 2014 - 03:10pm PT
Mr Kos,

You're only obligated to follow lawful commands.

No one is obligated to submit to tasering, dog bites, or a f*#king-up by the cops. Once the cops threaten such things, they no longer have the law 100% on their side.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 18, 2014 - 03:16pm PT
chaz, are you sure about that?

if a LEO tells you that if you do not "cease and desist" so to speak or to "stop resisting"
then yes, the LEO has every legal right to use a dog, taser, etc to get you to accept orders

and yes, those are all legal commands

true?
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 18, 2014 - 03:25pm PT
They do have the law 100% on their side. You don't get to point guns at federal agents. Those people are going to go to prison.
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
Apr 18, 2014 - 03:27pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 18, 2014 - 03:34pm PT
Norton, I agree with the point you just made, and I think it's dangerous to make sweeping statements about rights in the abstract in these types of cases. It's not impossible, but such a sweeping statement would basically have to state the entire law of self defense, or else be a simplification that may or may not be accurate in any particular scenario.

I read Kos's initial statement as at least plausibly meaning that you don't have a right to self defense against LEO's, which is why I chimed in here. (Not saying that's the only reading of Kos's statement or that's necessarily what he meant--I just wanted to clear up any potential confusion).

Bruce--I actually think US self-defense law is pretty good (keeping in mind that it varies somewhat). The Florida statue seemed poorly drafted to me. Good old standard self-defense law (for example, as applied federally, which includes the "no duty to retreat" doctrine) seems fine to me.

2nd Amendment rights are, IMHO, subject to reasonable disagreement. The 2nd Amendment itself was terribly drafted (in the drafters' defense, the concept of constitutional law didn't really exist back then, nor was "legal drafting" as a skill as developed of a concept). And the advances in weapons technology (which may or may not have been anticipated to some extent, but surely weren't fully anticipated) further could the issue.

Edit--on further thought, I don't really agree with Norton's comment, at least not without some further clarification. It depends on whether the LEO's command to "stop resisting" is lawful. Again, it's all very fact specific.
As to omg's statement that someone is going to go to jail for pointing a gun at a federal official: if someone can point to any specific conduct that we could analyze, that may be an interesting exercise. As it stands, I don't have a good enough feel for who did what to have any real thought on how this may play out.

I think the narrative the right wingers want to project is something like LEO's went in and started pointing guns at people for no good reason, and the people then pointed guns back, then everyone went home.
If that's more-or-less what happened, I'm not sure that the people pointing guns at the LEO's committed any crime.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 18, 2014 - 03:34pm PT
So Bundy is innocent is this deal??


Takes two to tango.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Apr 18, 2014 - 03:46pm PT
No one is obligated to remain passive in the face of direct violent threats, no matter who's doing the threatening.

That apply to everybody?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 18, 2014 - 03:47pm PT
I believe it's pretty straighforward.

18USC SS 111 lays it out...you can't assualt, resist, or impede federal officers or employees in the conduct of their duties. When you brandish a deadly weapon in doing so, that elevates it to a felony.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 18, 2014 - 03:48pm PT
I can think of at least 5 crimes and I'm not even a prosecutor.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 18, 2014 - 03:49pm PT
Bruce,
I know little if anything about law of self defense outside the US, so I took a quick look at good ol' Wikipedia just for grins.
Take a look at the following, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine#Outside_the_USA

Doesn't seem so different from the law in the US, agree?
Look at the England and Wales section, and I also note the German section about lethal force against LEO's.
I know US-bashing is a fun Canadian pass time, but save it for when we really do something wrong--there are still plenty of opportunities!



Outside the USA[edit]
Australia[edit]
Australian states have several differing laws. However, under South Australian law, the general defence appears in s15(1) Criminal Law Consolidation Act 1935 (SA) for defending a person's life, and s15A(1) for defending property, subject to a hybrid test, i.e. the defendant honestly believed the threat to be imminent and made an objectively reasonable and proportionate response to the circumstances as the accused subjectively perceived them.[26]

In July 2003, the Rann Government (SA) introduced laws allowing householders to use "whatever force they deem necessary" when confronted with a home invader. Householders who kill or injure a home invader escape prosecution provided they can prove they had a genuine belief that it was necessary to do so to protect themselves or their family.

The law was strongly opposed by then-Director of Public Prosecutions Paul Rofe, QC, and lawyer Marie Shaw, who is now a District Court Judge.[27]

England and Wales[edit]
In English common law a defendant may seek to avoid criminal or civil liability by claiming that he acted in self-defence.[28] This requires the jury to determine whether the defendant believed that force was necessary to defend him or herself, his or her property, or to prevent a crime, and that the force used was reasonable.[29] While there is no duty to retreat from an attacker and failure to do so is not conclusive evidence that a person did not act in self-defence, it may still be considered by the jury as a relevant factor when assessing the merits of a self-defence claim.[28] The common law duty to retreat was repealed by the Criminal Law Act 1967. This duty never existed when a person is somewhere he has a lawful right to be, but due to the repeal, now extends to public places, etc.

Germany[edit]
German law allows self-defense against an unlawful attack.[30] Courts have interpreted this law as applicable to home invasion, including the use of lethal force against law enforcement in cases where the home owner was of the mistaken belief that the intrusion was unlawful.[31]

Israel[edit]
Israeli law allows property owners to defend themselves with force.[32] This law was introduced in response to the trial of Shai Dromi, an Israeli farmer who shot Arab intruders on his farm late at night.[33]

Italy[edit]
Italy passed a law in 2005 that would allow property owners to defend themselves with force.[34]
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 18, 2014 - 04:02pm PT
I believe it's pretty straighforward.

18USC SS 111 lays it out...you can't assualt, resist, or impede federal officers or employees in the conduct of their duties. When you brandish a deadly weapon in doing so, that elevates it to a felony.

It's possibly that straightforward, but not necessarily.
For example, were LEO's legally performing their duties? If they were going around pointing guns at people for no reason, perhaps not.
Further, the law of self defense still applies to a prosecution under 18 USC Section 111. See United States v. Alvarez, 755 F. 2d 830 (11th Cir. 1985).

(Before anyone roasts me too hard, I am NOT saying that any of the people involved in this ranch business were validly exercising a right of self defense, or that the LEOs did anything wrong. I'm just pointing those out as theoretical possibilities--I don't know much about what actually happened. I saw the rancher being interviewed by Hannity and didn't really have much sympathy for him--sounded kind of crackpotish to me)

zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 18, 2014 - 04:05pm PT
Used logic - cheap.

A = free land
B = cowboyz
A&B = Bundy



Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Apr 18, 2014 - 04:06pm PT
Can you cite any US legal code or judicial precedent that permits anyone to engage a US officer with a firearm?

I suspect that there are fact patterns that would allow someone to engage a US Officer with a firearm. The facts would be extreme, criminal behavior on the part of the officer.

At the state level you may be permitted to resist an unlawful arrest under the law. Famous case in San Diego was Sagon Penn, cops tried to arrest him, he resisted and shot and killed an officer. He was acquitted of murder and his case exposed how corrupt the police and DA's office was/is.

http://community.adn.com/node/163131


Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 18, 2014 - 04:10pm PT
2nd Amendment rights are, IMHO, subject to reasonable disagreement. The 2nd Amendment itself was terribly drafted (in the drafters' defense, the concept of constitutional law didn't really exist back then, nor was "legal drafting" as a skill as developed of a concept). And the advances in weapons technology (which may or may not have been anticipated to some extent, but surely weren't fully anticipated) further could the issue.

very well said, wish more Americans would see it this way...

likely because that would take a little deeper intellect...
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 18, 2014 - 04:13pm PT
Can you cite any US legal code or judicial precedent that permits anyone to engage a US officer with a firearm?

Well sheeit, that's EZ as hell. The Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution as construed by A.(don't call me a-hole, mthrfckr) Scalia.


Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 18, 2014 - 04:23pm PT
actually,

I believe Scalia said that he believed the 2nd Amendment should be interpreted as to whatever an individual person can "carry" on their person is ok, flamethrowers, etc, all good

and THAT is the reason why we have 9 supreme court justices, rather than just one
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Apr 18, 2014 - 04:28pm PT
Does all this mean, there is no Sleeping Giant?
WBraun

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 18, 2014 - 04:38pm PT
A. Scalia says:

“My starting point and probably my ending point will be what limitations are within the understood limitations that the society had at the time,” he said. “They had some limitations on the nature of arms that could be borne. So we’ll see what those limitations are as applied to modern weapons.”

Paul Revere undoubtedly believed that it was appropriate to take up arms against a (from overseas raft of troubles - i.e. King George's US officers) and by opposing kill them.

QED


So say you Scalia, so say you all.
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
Apr 18, 2014 - 04:39pm PT
but Jack Burns dies Dingus, hamburger in the grill of Hinman's semi.

the little guy loses no matter how pure his morals or stout his self-determined skillset.


Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Apr 18, 2014 - 04:41pm PT
I believe Scalia said that he believed the 2nd Amendment should be interpreted as to whatever an individual person can "carry" on their person is ok, flamethrowers, etc, all good

Tony is a strict constructionist. He also believes that it is okay to execute an innocent man. The example he was presented with was an inmate who had exhausted his appeals, but a DNA test exonerated him. He defends his view of the law by saying, "Well, the governor can pardon him". Good luck with that one in Texas

When is the Tea Party, aided by the Mr. Burns Brigade, going to attack the Air Force, they are clearly unconstitutional

http://slashpolitics.reviewjournal.com/2010/10/17/is-the-air-force-constitutional/

zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 18, 2014 - 04:45pm PT
Gone like a cool breeze

go ahead watch it on th Y-tube, approved for all ages


[Click to View YouTube Video]
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 18, 2014 - 05:00pm PT
There must be a whole raft of villages missing their idiots.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 18, 2014 - 05:02pm PT
Point of order on those flamethrowers. It is much harder to get a flamethrower permit in California than a gun permit. I know.


CALIFORNIA CODES
HEALTH AND SAFETY CODE
SECTION 12750-12751




12750. For purposes of this part, the following definitions shall
apply:
(a) "Flamethrowing device" means any nonstationary and
transportable device designed or intended to emit or propel a burning
stream of combustible or flammable liquid a distance of at least 10
feet.
(b) "Permitholder" means a person who holds a flamethrowing device
permit issued pursuant to this part.



12751. This part shall not apply to the sale, purchase, possession,
transportation, storage, or use of a flamethrowing device by a
person if all of the following apply:
(a) The person is regularly employed by or a paid officer,
employee, or member of a fire department, fire protection district,
or firefighting agency of the federal government, the state, a city,
a county, a city and county, district, public or municipal
corporation, or political subdivision of this state.
(b) The person is on duty and acting within the course and scope
of his or her employment.
(c) The flamethrowing device is used by the fire department, fire
protection district, or firefighting agency described in subdivision
(a) in the course of fire suppression.

12760. The State Fire Marshal shall seize any flamethrowing device
in the possession of any person who does not have a valid
flamethrowing device permit issued pursuant to this part.



12761. Any person who uses or possesses any flamethrowing device
without a valid flamethrowing device permit issued pursuant to this
part is guilty of a public offense and, upon conviction, shall be
punished by imprisonment in the county jail for a term not to exceed
one year, or in the state prison, or by a fine not to exceed ten
thousand dollars ($10,000), or by both imprisonment and fine.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 18, 2014 - 06:00pm PT

the fear of Deactivation runs deeps....
John M

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 07:59pm PT
Perhaps to the Chuff, everyone is a giant.

you know,.. I don't much care for the way the Chief acts some times, but this kind of thing is really third grade sh#t. What are you adding to the forum when you post this crap? huh? When did it become okay for adults to act like 5th grader bully boys? Does the Chief dish it? sure.. but this constant attacking has to stop..

grow the f*#k up.
WBraun

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 08:09pm PT
BK -- "but I'm only human ..."

Are you sure ......
WBraun

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 08:13pm PT

:-)
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 18, 2014 - 08:17pm PT
In the famous words of H Rap (no relation I know of) Brown. This would be 1967-1968.

"If American don't come around, burn it down."


[Click to View YouTube Video]
John M

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 08:17pm PT
He was serious. Not literally, but figuratively. And I'm not really pissed at you Bruce. For the most part you post honorably. To me its more just the general atmosphere around here, that its okay to take potshots, to the point now where they seem near constant.

zingers are one thing, and if this place had more of a sense of humor, then what you wrote might have even been funny. I could certainly see the humor in it. But when a place has devolved to such a low level of taking shots at people, then it loses its humor.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 18, 2014 - 08:24pm PT
Well, some folks set themselves up as targets as nearly I as I can see.

My friend The is not the most cordial fellow, though we have come to some sort of understanding.

WBraun

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 08:28pm PT
Americans are always at war with something.

It's the American way.

Ugly Americans, Eugene Burdick and William Lederer wrote.

Bush and Cheney and all their stupid friends showed us how ......
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 18, 2014 - 08:32pm PT
The only Nevada cowboy joke I can think of, and it is Easter.

So the three Cowboys are in a bar in Elko, celebrating the Easter Holiday.


Late in the evening, the Catholic cowboy turns to his two companions and in a serious tone asks:
“What do you fellows think the True Meaning of Easter Is?”

The Baptist cowboy quickly replies:
“It’s the day that I can eat all the chocolate I want, and I won’t go to Hell, thanks to Jesus!”

The Mormon cowboy thinks for a while, then seriously replies:
"It’s the day that we all get to wear new clothes to Church Services, then go outside for an Easter Egg hunt to celebrate Jesus!”

The Catholic Cowboy leans in close to the other two, and quietly, but intensely says:

“Easter is the day when we celebrate Jesus Christ rising from the dead. Jesus is the Son of God and heroically gave His life to die for our sins. On the third day after He died -- the day we now celebrate as Easter Sunday -- His friends went to His grave, and found that He had risen from the dead. They saw an angel who told them, "Don't be afraid! I know you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. He isn't here! He has been raised from the dead, just as He said it would happen." Unfortunately, he saw his shadow, and there’s going to be 6-more weeks of winter.”
John M

climber
Apr 18, 2014 - 08:33pm PT
sure.. some folks set themselves up as targets. Do we really need to shoot at everything we see?

Let me say.. I love hanging out with my friends popping off zingers. But we don't mean for them to be hurtful.




I miss Ouch.. he could take some of this sh#t and turn it into pure hilarity.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 19, 2014 - 10:56am PT
Ron, you are clueless. Get help.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 19, 2014 - 11:20am PT
Sh#t, the FBI investigated Occupy Wallstreet as a terrorist group. I don't remember seeing a single gun at any of the protests.

Who looks more like terrorists and who looks like peaceful protestors?

or:
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Apr 19, 2014 - 12:12pm PT
Uncle Harry Reid has one of the most formidable and crooked political machines on the planet. I witnessed the processing of undocumented democrats through the DMV during his last election season. To defeat him you would have to have a near unaminous vote. Give him any wiggle room and he would steal the election just as he has with many of his squeakers.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Apr 19, 2014 - 12:26pm PT

This thread stinks...

edit: Sorry, Ron Anderson...It stinks at both ends...
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 19, 2014 - 12:31pm PT
Hey RongO what about the irony that you think all Gubmint is bad bad bad but you are relying on your Legislature to suss it out. Yer a froot.



These guys don't look like "Freedom Fighters" To me They look like Free Dumb Fighters. AmuriKKKlan Taliban. Stoopid little men hiding behind their strap on surrogate penises.
You all disgust me. After nineeleven you all wanted to kill all the Ayrabs who attacked our American Excellence. You stormed around waving American flags and demanding "Shock and Awe" retribution. So the actions you demanded didn't work out the way you were convinced they would. It was a massive debacle that we will be paying for years to come. All the crap you are railing about now was a rsult of failed Neo-Con policys that made Billionaires richer but impoverished the rest of US. Now, since the beginning of 2014, nearly 2000 of the soldiers sent to wage war have commited suicide while the GOP has cut funding for Vets to the bone. Who's your "real" enemy?

If what is pictured above is a vision of the America these militant anarchist promote Then I wish Shock and Awe upon them. Send the survivors to GitMo. I would love to see a heaping body of loosers with a women from the BLM smoking a blunt and pointing at them. Or a pic of them standing on a box in a pool of water with electorodes attached to their teeny gonads.

F*#kyou terrorists! What's your end game? After the revolution what comes next. I'm sure the Koch suckers have an answer for you pussies.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 19, 2014 - 12:34pm PT
I guess you dont see the IRONY in your posting Wes, and how that top picture represents what was faced down in Bunkerville eh..

I guess you don't see the difference between sitting down in peaceful protest and calling LEOs scum and pussies and threatening them with violence. I know for a fact that NO threats of violence were uttered by the protesters at that UC Davis incident... I was there. I also KNOW for a fact that MANY threats of violence were screamed hysterically at the LEOs in Bunkerville.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 19, 2014 - 12:41pm PT
Citizen's peacefully protesting a real grievance are attacked by LEO thugs and you all cheered the busting up of those dirty hippies and their evil agenda of peace.
Fast forward to today and you are all heralding the Armed insurrection and vigilante defense of a common criminal.

Is this your vision of America?
Why don't you fight for a real cause?



Well at least RongO has a hobby.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 19, 2014 - 12:42pm PT
Welcome to Vegas. Do you have an American Flag? Do you love America but hate the government?


philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 19, 2014 - 12:44pm PT
Really now Wes, i can show you vid after vid of California protesters hurling bricks bottles and molitoff cocktails at LEOS.



Well RongO they sound like your kind of folks. Threatening LEOs seems to be your thing these days so why don't you trumpet their stand against tyranny.



If only Budyboi was a black man this would have already been over and RongO would be on the wrong side as usual.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Apr 19, 2014 - 12:48pm PT
No Nita is right. Politics and its arguments are very stinky business. Whatever happened to the concept of citizen legislators, the kind that returned to their lives, jobs and families after a term or two.The corruption is largely the product of career pols. Anyway im in the sleepy little fishing village of Wrangell in S.E. AK for my oldest sons wedding today. Far better to attend than an argument over stinky politics.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 19, 2014 - 12:48pm PT
Locker, he is talking about the reaction to the Rodney King incident and outcome.
Thus a total non-sequitur to the bumbling bafoonery at the Bundy Bunker.
His latent racism is showing.





OhCOWpie MOOvement how I caint quit ewe.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 19, 2014 - 12:48pm PT
Really now Wes

Yes Ron. Absolutely 100% honest to God... not one single threat was made by the protestors at that UC Davis event. The only Occupy violence I ever saw was police pounding on protestors. I never saw ANY guns.

Are suggesting any and every rancher should now be treated as a domestic terrorist because Bundy made threats of violence towards federal officers? I know plenty of reasonable ranchers who would take issue with that.


He is talking about the reaction to the Rodney King incident and outcome.


hahahhaa... really? Rong confused Occupy Wallstreet with the Rodney King riots 20 years earlier?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 19, 2014 - 12:52pm PT
^^^ As I said non-sequitur racism.


mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 19, 2014 - 12:52pm PT
just research the Watts riot, or Reginald Denny for instance

hahahhaaa... OMG!
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 19, 2014 - 12:53pm PT
I suppose there's nothing illegal in having Ron, a member of an armed anti-government militia, use ST forum as a recruitment tool for his extremist, ultra-conservative organization.

But it seems like there should be a better place so the rest of us aren't infected by having to read his vile gibberish.

Ron, please have the common decency to take your battle somewhere else.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 19, 2014 - 12:54pm PT
Maggie's Drawers look good on you Rong they go with your purse.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 19, 2014 - 01:04pm PT
I'm glad Rong is back. He never fails to point out just how useless these "discussions" are.

When comparing the Occupy protests to the armed Bunkerville idiots, why not throw in some Watts riots and a little Rodney King and some sport fans?

Like arguing with a dining room table.

At least we can all find solace in the fact that life on this planet, with these mindless idiots, is short.
John M

climber
Apr 19, 2014 - 01:08pm PT
ron
RON
rOOOONN

the occupy movement is NOT the watts riots…

good lord, you can't seriously compare the two.

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 19, 2014 - 01:10pm PT
I want to see vid after vid of the Watts riots. Come on, where are they?
John M

climber
Apr 19, 2014 - 01:10pm PT
what does the sports team riot have to do with the Occupy movement?
John M

climber
Apr 19, 2014 - 01:15pm PT
again Ron..

what does a sports team riot have to do with the occupy movement?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 19, 2014 - 01:15pm PT
Hey look at that a bloody cop does that give you armed insurrectionists a chubby?
Who's side were you on during these riots Ron?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 19, 2014 - 01:16pm PT
You see...

Rong hates the government. When uneducated ranchers stand up to the LEGAL land owners in VIOLENT and ARMED protest, it gives him a semi. He agrees with and supports those good ol'boys, even though they are violating the law of the land, which he once swore to uphold.

Ron also hates hippies, city folks, fags, blacks, educated people, foreigners, and everyone who isn't a good ol'boy. So anytime anyone other than a good ol'boy rancher type does ANYTHING, it supports his argument that his side is right and everyone who disagrees with him is wrong.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 19, 2014 - 01:19pm PT
Rong Sequitur hates the government but wants the government to investigate the government and tell the government not to govern. Have a mint your breath smells of OhCOWpie MOOvement.



ps. FYI RonA I have no interest in YOU responding to ME so spare US all the "I won't respond to you meanies" crap.

As has been the usual outcome of your many irrational tirades and crusades you will be proven to be on the wrong side of history. Good thing is if you eat enough crow it will (according to you) be very beneficial to the desert tortoise population.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 19, 2014 - 01:27pm PT
My dad gave me advice on people like Ron (regressive thinking)...You just have to wait for them to die off.


It happening, slowly but surely.



Everything wrong with Ron's world happen because people like him voted against their best interest and bought into the lies.

crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 19, 2014 - 01:28pm PT
Yes, this thread has been "Ron'd". Time to move on.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 19, 2014 - 01:29pm PT
Ron'd? Is that like LEBed?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 19, 2014 - 01:33pm PT
^^^ Now this thread has been LOL'd



Rongs out selling guns now building God's Army one ignored background check at a time.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 19, 2014 - 01:34pm PT
Occupy protester admits that bottles/rocks were thrown BEFORE police responded in Oakland; http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=occupy+video+bottles&FORM=VIRE11#view=detail&mid=DB74143A473DEF8CE2D6DB74143A473DEF8CE2D6

not to mention all the broken windows, cars damaged by these anarchist punks.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 19, 2014 - 01:35pm PT
OnCueBlew.


https://www.google.com/search?q=occupy+movement+violent+protests&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari

Interesting reading. It seems most violence was percipitated by the Cops.
Maybe RongO is RightO. Too bad the "peaceful" protesters didn't arm themselves with guns like real AmuriKKKlans. Or at least a few cows.
John M

climber
Apr 19, 2014 - 01:39pm PT
I'm well aware that some incidents of violence happened at some occupy movement events. Its virtually impossible to keep that many people from doing something stupid. Which is kind of my point. the people protesting the bundy cow removal were upset at how well armed the BLM was.

Ron's contention appears to be that all large groups can become violent, so the police should be well armed. But not at his protests.

Which is just silly.

He calls it proof at how militaristic the police have become at the bundy protest, but cheered on the things that happened to those "dirty Hippies" during the occupy movement.

Seems hypocritical to me.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 19, 2014 - 01:41pm PT
^^^ Right on John M. Still the point will be lost on the Rongs of the world.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 19, 2014 - 01:41pm PT


And you think the BLM is the enemy?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 19, 2014 - 01:44pm PT
Oakland still ain't Davis blurring.

By the law of large numbers you can almost guarantee some idiot in a crowd that size someone will act inappropriately.

Completely different situation than ~20 anti-government wannabe martyrs threatening LEOs who are simply enforcing the aspects of the law the idiots happen to disagree with.

But nobody expects blurring to comprehend... he also hates government, wants government to step in and do something about the government, and is willing to be part of an armed revolution if he doesn't get his way.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 19, 2014 - 01:45pm PT
What law were they enforcing there, Wes?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 19, 2014 - 01:46pm PT
Chaz have you paid any attention or are you still looking for the birth certificate?



Government Of the Gun, By the Gun and For the Gun.
What could go wRong?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 19, 2014 - 01:51pm PT
^^^OK no prob. But did you engage in any illegal cattle tipping?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 19, 2014 - 01:52pm PT
Law: the system of rules that a particular country or community recognizes as regulating the actions of its members and may enforce by the imposition of penalties.

Multiple court orders to remove the cattle falls under the category of law you fuking idiot.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 19, 2014 - 01:54pm PT
Those were not cows Locker those were gators.
That's why you didn't need a step ladder. :-)
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 19, 2014 - 02:45pm PT
Dumb asses don't realize most of what they dislike/hate about the government was created by the folks that they voted for.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 19, 2014 - 02:56pm PT
Oakland still ain't Davis blurring.

By the law of large numbers you can almost guarantee some idiot in a crowd that size someone will act inappropriately.

Never happens at Tea Party events. Never any garbage left behind either.

And they were not enforcing his cattle intrusions, it was about "grazing rights".

BTW, the Feds killed his property and did material damage to his private land in all of this. Is that enforcing the law, or breaking it?

This is why the milita showed up. The feds were seizing his property w/o warrant and blocking his land, HIS land, not BLM land.

Not to mention the 'free-speech' zones.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 19, 2014 - 03:02pm PT


The Feds were seizing several hundred cows grazing illegally on Public land under Fed juridiction not his little melon farm.

And the "Free Speech" zones are SOP since the GOP squelched all direct dissent.
John M

climber
Apr 19, 2014 - 03:04pm PT
http://www.ftrradio.com/2012/12/reporter-injured-as-tea-party-rally-turns-violent-with-racially-motivated-attack/
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 19, 2014 - 03:05pm PT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6mCTU4NpRQ


Never Bluey.


http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2009/1118/violence-at-tea-party-rally-bare-knuckle-politics-in-the-streets


http://act.boldprogressives.org/sign/statement_teapartyviolence/?source=teapartythugs



Bluey...not a word out of your mouth about Bundy breaking the law for the past 21 years.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 19, 2014 - 03:08pm PT
Neo-Facists are never bothered by the excesses of their own actions.
Only by the imagined offenses of "the Others".



And they were not enforcing his cattle intrusions, it was about "grazing rights".
Really? Are you sure it's not because he is a grazing WHITE?
How many "brothas" showed up and your Anarchists Tea Party?


If your Jesus showed up and stood between the Feds and the Bundybois to same on all of you. Would you listen first or shoot first?
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 19, 2014 - 03:09pm PT
Dumb asses don't realize most of what they dislike/hate about the government was created by the folks that they voted for.

This is based on the premise that the quaint process of 'voting' is relevant any longer. It helps give the sheep a feeling they have a say. They don't. And they haven't for a long time.

Look with critical eye at the level of corruption and cronyism in our fascist state. To believe that the process of going into a booth and secretly checking off boxes somehow can change direction of this train is laughable.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 19, 2014 - 03:11pm PT
NEVER happens at Tea Bagger events.

Seizing HIS property... that happened to be on BLM land... which he was ordered to remove several times.

Your complete idiocy never fails to entertain and amaze.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 19, 2014 - 03:17pm PT
Fear I am sorry but you are wrong. That is why anti-American billionaires like Sheldon Adelson and the Koch Cabal are funneling billions of dark money into controlling the political landscape. Their massive investment to pervert our political process should be evidence enough for everyone that the system still works and is feared by the Oligarchs. But you Fear are the perfect product of their efforts.
John M

climber
Apr 19, 2014 - 03:21pm PT
Never any garbage left behind either.

lets ignore the moral arguments the occupy movement made because some of them littered.

climbers litter, so we should ignore their needs too..

I am all for not littering, but basing your judgment on the moral superiority of an argument on whether some of the people involved litter is kind of absurd.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 19, 2014 - 03:23pm PT
John M

climber
Apr 19, 2014 - 03:24pm PT
the bundy protest could have easily devolved into a shoot nightmare where people could have died.

garbage is a breeding ground for disease, but I don't know of anyone dying from someone tossing a gum wrapper.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 19, 2014 - 03:28pm PT


Oaf Creaper retired Sheriff Richard "Women and Children first" Mack not so much.






Maybe those tyrannical Gubmint fascists should send in SEAL TEAM .006 to give these children a spanking, wipe their noses and send them to bed without a cookie.


The OWS movement had a legitimate grievance to redress and you wrongwing gun huggers "shet" all over them and their cause.
But now you've got self delusional honor on your side. Good luck with that.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 19, 2014 - 03:46pm PT
If I'm not mistaken there was no court order to seize and subsequentlety kill the man's cattle at great loss to himself. He was ordered to pay fees.

And for some of you to equate Tea Party rallies to the type of violence at other Occupy and leftist demonstrations is utterly ridiculous.

It's totally disingenuous, and you know it!

EDIT:
The OWS movement had a legitimate grievance to redress and you wrongwing gun huggers "shet" all over them and their cause.
But now you've got self delusional honor on your side. Good luck with that.

What was the legit grievance that OWS had? That warranted what they did?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 19, 2014 - 03:48pm PT
Yea the Cops didn't go and "ruffle the feathers" of the TeaBaggers like they did with many otherwise Peaceful OWS protests as well as G8 protests.


What was their legitimate grievance? Are you joking? And you had the temerity to call me disingenuous? Maybe you should look up the definition of big multi-sylabic words before you try to use them.


The real question is what did they do that warranted what was done to them?
Hint it wasn't threats to kill cops or foment armed insurrection against the Government.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 19, 2014 - 03:58pm PT
What was the legit grievance that OWS had? That warranted what they did?

Answer the question. You seem to know all.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 19, 2014 - 04:07pm PT
To begin with Blue, don't ever presume to tell me what to do! You don't have a gun to my free thinking head.


I don't know everything. But I do know the media lied about the peaceful OWS movement.

I know that MLK died for his convictions but that his insistent method of peaceful resistance changed the world. Even though he was shot down by a rightwing white supremacist gun nut.


On the other hand Cliven Bundy is unlikely to die for his conviction to not do what 16,000 other ranchers do. He is likely to end up in prison with out a cow to cry on after a court of law convicts him. And you gunhuggers are likely to work up public sentiment that results in self-fulfilling gun regulations.
Thanks a lot azzwhores.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 19, 2014 - 04:15pm PT
Apparently I was wrong word is the attack and seizure is underway now.


The feds have launched incendiary white phosphorus shells at the Bundy Melon Farm claiming they were misfired smoke bombs. Sources deep within the Star chambers at HQ promised that no cows, sheep, llama or tortoises were harmed in what the are calling just a brief skirmish in a dung heap". Verification of these claims has not as of yet been made by independent sources.
News at... NEVER!


Look at how a real oppressive government plays with their dissidents.
John M

climber
Apr 19, 2014 - 04:16pm PT
What was the legit grievance that OWS had? That warranted what they did?

Its very telling that you have to ask. I remember you calling these people dirty hippies, like the retired policeman that Philo posted a pic of.

You were very quick to smear their complaints with the.. "its just a bunch of dirty hippies" crap while ignoring the whole picture and what they wanted. It drew a broad spectrum of people and it wasn't organized and paid for by a few rich people, like the tea party is.

…..

Philo.. I didn't appreciate your comment to Ed on his appreciation thread. Please Leave your negativity out of those threads. If you can post to these threads, then he can bump what he wants. I was glad that he did because I missed some of those threads. This thread certainly won't drop into oblivion anytime soon. So you don't need to defend that. If you have a right to post what you want, then so does he.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 19, 2014 - 04:28pm PT
John M noted and amended.

But will you please let me wipe my own nose from now?


What bothered me is that they were all from Ed and were all simple BUMPs. no content added No value added. Nothing but a form of passive aggressive censorship. I for one have benefited greatly from threads and TRs I intially had missed being bumped. But you have to acknowledge that to some degree it was a lot like a certain lady who went post crazy to censure what she found offensive. And as such just a bit juvenile.
Add content Ed. You are better than that. Much better. Make it worth the time. Make it more interesting than an otherwise innocuous and harmless thread.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Apr 19, 2014 - 04:34pm PT
Here are the court orders, nothing else matters unless you are an anarchist. Reciting the Pledge of Allegiance does not inoculate one from anarchy, and anarchy is contagious.

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/nv/field_offices/las_vegas_field_office/cattle_trespass.Par.0116.File.dat/Dkt%2035%20Order%20Granting%20MSJ%207-9-13.pdf

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/nv/field_offices/las_vegas_field_office/cattle_trespass.Par.40211.File.dat/Dkt%2056%20Order%20Granting%20Motion%20to%20Enforce%2010-9-13.pdf
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 19, 2014 - 04:36pm PT
Excellent John M but holy sidewall BatMan.

ps that wasn't a threat. :-)
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 19, 2014 - 04:38pm PT
Bluey wrote:
What was the legit grievance that OWS had? That warranted what they did?


Are you kidding????


Oh...maybe had to something to do with Wall St and the amount of wealth that was loss by so many Americans during the 2008 meltdown but I could be wrong.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 19, 2014 - 04:47pm PT
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_Lv9bsB14JA

Since 2001 Right wing extremists have posed a bigger threat of terrorism than Muslim Jihadists.

You guys are the enemy.
Ballo

Trad climber
Apr 19, 2014 - 05:41pm PT
…and there is a fee because?

Ranchers have been using this land since well before the BLM. Hell, the only reason the BLM exists is because the fed gov bought a bunch of land for another crony scheme, a railroad, which fell through. Instead of selling that land, they decided to lease it off for influence and profit. Same reason Reid can lease off land or do land swaps for his solar electric buddies, or the fed gov leases it for pennies so campaign contributors can frack the hell out of Nevada without the locals having any say. At least if the gas & oil companies bought the land they would have SOME interest in its long term value. Hell, if this land became a superfund site the money would REALLY start rolling in!

Ahh, tragedy of the commons
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 19, 2014 - 05:54pm PT
and there is a fee because?

because when people profit off of public lands, then yes they should pay a fee

and yes, ranchers fatten their cows off public land and should pay

OR they can choose to graze off their own land if they don't want to pay

when people get to enjoy, "profit" off of so to speak, the national parks, they pay a fee

because public lands belong to all of us, and no one is being forced to go on them, but
those who choose to do, can either pay a fee if there is one, or choose to not
John M

climber
Apr 19, 2014 - 05:59pm PT
…and there is a fee because?

there is a fee because when it was free range the ranchers overgrazed it and that hurt all ranchers. With a fee and regulation, then the grass can be maintained and at least some can make a living.

Some ranchers/ people are capable of moderating themselves. But when faced with others who can't or won't moderate themselves, then fees and regulations become necessary.

too many cows can ruin a range.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 19, 2014 - 07:04pm PT
Why aren't the cowboys paid not to raise cows, just like everybody else riding the gravy train.

Farmers
Once-upon-a-time military who never saw action
Oil companies
Marijuana researchers
CongressmenORwomen
Senators
IRS "agents'
The Bush Family
Obama
"Homeland" Security [sic] ridealongs
Po-licemenORwomen
WallStreet Misadventure Capitalists
Too Big to Fail Mind-your-own-businessmen
The Masters of War

...

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 19, 2014 - 07:19pm PT
zBrown
Norton
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 19, 2014 - 07:24pm PT
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 19, 2014 - 07:26pm PT
I do declare that TeaGeeTea is the sole ST poster that I would not care to share a brew with.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 19, 2014 - 07:29pm PT
Philo, don't limit yer world so narrowly, you might be pleasantly surprised.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 19, 2014 - 07:32pm PT
Really Reilly?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 19, 2014 - 07:36pm PT
Norton, I take back what I said about Ron... lost cause that one.
John M

climber
Apr 19, 2014 - 07:41pm PT


We need to start a supertopo militia.

Who should be our leader?

neebee
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 19, 2014 - 07:44pm PT
who should be our leader?

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 19, 2014 - 07:46pm PT
^^^OMG somebody help!
It's a man being eaten by a Tribble.


Can the sidewall be dialed back a bit?
WBraun

climber
Apr 19, 2014 - 08:00pm PT
Anonymous coward running their mouths.

What are you gonna do weirdo?

Show up and tell them with your stupid mask and cape on?

You're insane .....
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 19, 2014 - 08:09pm PT
Werner, Got literacy?
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 19, 2014 - 08:59pm PT
Ballo asks:
…and there is a fee because?

I believe that question has been answered, but although I think grazing fees now go back into the U.S. Treasury, the BLM (Bureau of Livestock & Mining) due to their traditional favoritism to resource exploiters) always used grazing fees for what they termed: "range improvement."

"Range Improvement" included roads for rancher access, improvement of waterholes, building check dams to hold water for livestock, and fences to reduce overgrazing on certain livestock allotments.

Those improvements usually added up to way more money than grazing fees supplied on shist desert lands like those Bundy has been not paying fees on for the last 20+ years.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 19, 2014 - 09:01pm PT
So you believe that Benghazi was a

spontaneous demonstration

And Ft Hood just,

workplace violence

What makes you think anyone is telling you the truth now?

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2014/04/19/Clinton-WH-Feared-Internet-s-Ability-to-Democraticize-News-Three-Years-Before-Drudge-Bombshell
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Apr 19, 2014 - 09:20pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Apr 19, 2014 - 09:38pm PT
improvement of waterholes,

My rancher friend has to maintain his own wells on his NF lease. An important cost of doing business.

Bad roads are a good excuse for him to buy 4WDs.


philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 19, 2014 - 09:41pm PT
2001 an OhCOWpie MOOvement space odyessy.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 19, 2014 - 10:38pm PT
Since it appears that many folks posting here, don't have a clue about what the BLM does to promote LEGAL grazing on public lands, here is their statement on the subject.

http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/grazing.html

Fact Sheet on the BLM’s Management of Livestock Grazing

Grazing on Public Lands
The Bureau of Land Management, which administers about 245 million acres of public lands, manages livestock grazing on 155 million acres of those lands, as guided by Federal law. The terms and conditions for grazing on BLM-managed lands (such as stipulations on forage use and season of use) are set forth in the permits and leases issued by the Bureau to public land ranchers.

The BLM administers nearly 18,000 permits and leases held by ranchers who graze their livestock, mostly cattle and sheep, at least part of the year on more than 21,000 allotments under BLM management. Permits and leases generally cover a 10-year period and are renewable if the BLM determines that the terms and conditions of the expiring permit or lease are being met. The amount of grazing that takes place each year on BLM-managed lands can be affected by such factors as drought, wildfire, and market conditions.

In managing livestock grazing on public rangelands, the BLM’s overall objective is to ensure the long-term health and productivity of these lands and to create multiple environmental benefits that result from healthy watersheds. The Bureau administers public land ranching in accordance with the Taylor Grazing Act of 1934, and in so doing provides livestock-based economic opportunities in rural communities while contributing to the West’s, and America’s, social fabric and identity. Together, public lands and the adjacent private ranches maintain open spaces in the fast-growing West, provide habitat for wildlife, offer a myriad of recreational opportunities for public land users, and help preserve the character of the rural West.

A Brief History of Public Lands Grazing

During the era of homesteading, Western public rangelands were often overgrazed because of policies designed to promote the settlement of the West and a lack of understanding of these arid ecosystems. In response to requests from Western ranchers, Congress passed the Taylor Grazing Act of 1934 (named after Rep. Edward Taylor of Colorado), which led to the creation of grazing districts in which grazing use was apportioned and regulated. Under the Taylor Grazing Act, the first grazing district to be established was Wyoming Grazing District Number 1 on March 23, 1935. Secretary of the Interior Harold Ickes created a Division of Grazing within the Department to administer the grazing districts; this division later became the U.S. Grazing Service and was headquartered in Salt Lake City. In 1946, as a result of a government reorganization by the Truman Administration, the Grazing Service was merged with the General Land Office to become the Bureau of Land Management.

The unregulated grazing that took place before enactment of the Taylor Grazing Act caused unintended damage to soil, plants, streams, and springs. As a result, grazing management was initially designed to increase productivity and reduce soil erosion by controlling grazing through both fencing and water projects and by conducting forage surveys to balance forage demands with the land’s productivity (“carrying capacity”).

These initial improvements in livestock management, which arrested the degradation of public rangelands while improving watersheds, were appropriate for the times. But by the 1960s and 1970s, public appreciation for public lands and expectations for their management rose to a new level, as made clear by congressional passage of such laws as the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969, the Endangered Species Act of 1973, and the Federal Land Policy and Management Act of 1976. Consequently, the BLM moved from managing grazing in general to better management or protection of specific rangeland resources, such as riparian areas, threatened and endangered species, sensitive plant species, and cultural or historical objects. Consistent with this enhanced role, the Bureau developed or modified the terms and conditions of grazing permits and leases and implemented new range improvement projects to address these specific resource issues, promoting continued improvement of public rangeland conditions.

Current Management of Public Lands Grazing

Today the BLM manages livestock grazing in a manner aimed at achieving and maintaining public land health. To achieve desired conditions, the agency uses rangeland health standards and guidelines, which the BLM developed in the 1990s with input from citizen-based Resource Advisory Councils across the West. Standards describe specific conditions needed for public land health, such as the presence of streambank vegetation and adequate canopy and ground cover. Guidelines are the management techniques designed to achieve or maintain healthy public lands, as defined by the standards. These techniques include such methods as seed dissemination and periodic rest or deferment from grazing in specific allotments during critical growth periods.

Legal Mandates relating to Public Lands Grazing

Laws that apply to the BLM’s management of public lands grazing include the Taylor Grazing Act of 1934, the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969, the Endangered Species Act of 1973, the Federal Land Policy and Management Act of 1976, and the Public Rangelands Improvement Act of 1978.

Federal Grazing Fee

The Federal grazing fee, which applies to Federal lands in 16 Western states on public lands managed by the BLM and the U.S. Forest Service, is adjusted annually and is calculated by using a formula originally set by Congress in the Public Rangelands Improvement Act of 1978. Under this formula, as modified and extended by a presidential Executive Order issued in 1986, the grazing fee cannot fall below $1.35 per animal unit month (AUM); also, any fee increase or decrease cannot exceed 25 percent of the previous year’s level. (An AUM is the amount of forage needed to sustain one cow and her calf, one horse, or five sheep or goats for a month.) The grazing fee for 2014 is $1.35 per AUM, the same level as it was in 2013.
The Federal grazing fee is computed by using a 1966 base value of $1.23 per AUM for livestock grazing on public lands in Western states. The figure is then adjusted each year according to three factors – current private grazing land lease rates, beef cattle prices, and the cost of livestock production. In effect, the fee rises, falls, or stays the same based on market conditions, with livestock operators paying more when conditions are better and less when conditions have declined.
Number of Livestock on BLM-managed Lands

The Bureau does not make an annual national “count” of the livestock that graze on BLM-managed lands because the actual number of livestock grazing on public lands on any single day varies throughout the year and livestock are often moved from one grazing allotment to another. So an aggregate head count would provide very little information on overall livestock use. Instead, the BLM compiles information on the number of AUMs used each year, which takes into account both the number of livestock and the amount of time they spend on public lands. (For the definition of an AUM, see previous section.) Over time there has been a gradual decrease in the amount of grazing that takes place on BLM-managed land, and that trend continues today. Grazing use on public lands has declined from 18.2 million AUMs in 1954 to 7.9 million AUMs in 2013. In most years, the actual use of forage is less than the amount authorized because forage amounts and demands depend on several factors, such as drought, wildfire, and market conditions, as noted earlier regarding annual public land grazing levels.

Grazing Permit System

Any U.S. citizen or validly licensed business can apply for a BLM grazing permit or lease. To do so, one must either:
• buy or control private property (known as “base property”) that has been legally recognized by the Bureau as having preference for the use of public land grazing privileges,
• or acquire property that has the capability to serve as base property and then apply to the BLM to transfer the preference for grazing privileges from an existing base property to the acquired property (which would become the new “base property”).

The first alternative happens when base property (a private ranch) is sold or leased to a new individual or business; the buyer or lessee then applies to the BLM for the use of grazing privileges associated with that property. The second alternative would happen when a rancher wants to transfer existing public land grazing privileges to another party while keeping the private ranch property. Before buying or leasing ranch property, it is advisable to contact the BLM Field Office that administers grazing in the area of the base property. The BLM has information on the status of the grazing privileges attached to the base property, including the terms and conditions of the associated grazing permit or lease that authorizes the use of those privileges and other important information. All applicants for grazing permits or leases must meet the qualifications for public land grazing privileges that are specified in the BLM’s grazing regulations.

The Role of Livestock Grazing on Public Lands Today
Grazing, which was one of the earliest uses of public lands when the West was settled, continues to be an important use of those same lands today. Livestock grazing now competes with more uses than it did in the past, as other industries and the general public look to the public lands as sources of both conventional and renewable energy and as places for outdoor recreational opportunities, including off-highway vehicle use. Among the key issues that face public land managers today are global climate change, severe wildfires, invasive plant species, and dramatic population increases, including the associated rural residential development that is occurring throughout the West.

Livestock grazing can result in impacts on public land resources, but well-managed grazing provides numerous environmental benefits as well. For example, while livestock grazing can lead to increases in some invasive species, well-managed grazing can be used to manage vegetation. Intensively managed “targeted” grazing can control some invasive plant species or reduce the fuels that contribute to severe wildfires. Besides providing such traditional products as meat and fiber, well-managed rangelands and other private ranch lands support healthy watersheds, carbon sequestration, recreational opportunities, and wildlife habitat. Livestock grazing on public lands helps maintain the private ranches that, in turn, preserve the open spaces that have helped write the West’s history and will continue to shape this region’s character in the years to come.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 19, 2014 - 11:17pm PT
Since it appears that many folks posting here, don't have a clue about what the BLM does to promote LEGAL grazing on public lands, here is their statement on the subject.

Your point is well taken Fritz and I read the whole quote.

I think the issue here, however, is what is done to promote ILLEGAL grazing on public lands. Then by whom and by what means.


jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Apr 19, 2014 - 11:32pm PT
If you,re going to be willing to stand up and take arms against the feds, you maybe should pick a cause that stands a chance of winning.

Effectively, these dudes are going to bring a new cry for gun control, and Bundy will fade out of the media spotlight and into obscurity soon after losing another round.

I keep asking over in the gun threads- where,s that line that determines when your government becomes tyranical and you are justified to open fire on them?

Seems some people think we,re getting close. God I hope they,re wrong. This isnt it. Not even the nevada cattle ranchers club will truly back him. So cue the armed militia...?

This is not to say things dont need changing. I too have followed herds of sheep. And cows. And those prolific wild horses that mow down the flora which is vital to the native fauna.

Nobody cares though... Horses are cute, steaks should be cheap, and wool is the original, sustainable (?) smart fabric.

Let the states run it you say? Hell, old Reid would do us a fine job. As would the folks in comedyfornia. Keep that in mind.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 19, 2014 - 11:51pm PT
None of your arguments have any merit, Ron, if you value the law, which it appears you do not.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 19, 2014 - 11:54pm PT
The public lands livestock grazing program uses approximately 250 million acres of the arid west, with permitted users paying a pittance to the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) or the Forest Service for the privilege to do so. And it is truly a pittance. When Bundy stopped paying BLM in 1993, he owed just $1.86 per animal unit month for his mama cows, or $3,348 to use the land year-round. But Bundy refused to pay the fees because he didn’t want to reduce his herd to just 150 animals in order to help save the Mojave desert tortoise, a species given an emergency Endangered Species Act listing, and whose existence is specifically threatened by livestock competition for scarce desert vegetation and direct crushing and trampling of tortoise burrows. Bundy’s non-payment of fees was coupled with non-cooperation about getting his cows off the range. Since 1993, Bundy’s herd has ranged from 550 to more than 900 animals, far more than he was ever legally permitted. His cows have roamed over a much broader area than he was ever legally allowed to use. Without accounting for the legal expenses incurred by BLM and the costs of last week’s failed roundup, Bundy has since racked up a million dollar bill for overdue fees, trespass fees, and fines.

As Bundy musters up an army of supporters for this theft from the American public and the harm to the public lands, taxpayers lose at least $123 million each year that the federal grazing program continues. According to the Government Accountability Office, in 2005, the grazing fee wasn’t nearly sufficient to cover the costs of managing public lands grazing, and we – you and me, but apparently not Mr. Bundy – subsidize the program with $1.2 billion every decade, not counting the additional costs of species recovery, range infrastructure, soil loss, weed infestations, increasing wildfires, and bacterial contamination of water supplies. Despite the efforts of Western Watersheds Project and others, the fee formula has never been revised.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 20, 2014 - 12:09am PT
Well crankster, i thought well enough about the laws to put my life on the FIRING line. In front of a barrel aimed at me to kill me. That barrel failed.

lol

spin spin spin you talk in circles old man

crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 20, 2014 - 12:10am PT
Get elected, change the law, whatever, Ron. But don't try to justify the armed overthrow of the U S government like some lunatic.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 20, 2014 - 12:11am PT
Reason 624 you should never watch Fox...
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 20, 2014 - 12:22am PT
So far the only thing I have learned on this thread is that Ron is pretty much just like the Lone Ranger, only dumber.

Or explain to me why the BLM was destroying the water improvements on the grazing allotment

Could it be that they were illegal? Like when they destroy the drip irrigation systems for pot growers.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 20, 2014 - 12:40am PT
More information on the fact that only paranoid nut-cases like Ron Anderson, bluering, TGT, and the evil folks at Fox News, that build support for right-wing, gun-crazy, government-hating nut-cases: are still supporting Rancher Bundy.

The Conservative Newspaper, The Twin Falls, Idaho, Times News has this editorial opinion.
http://magicvalley.com/news/opinion/editorial/our-view-cheers-and-jeers/article_66e4cbea-9ddf-59c0-8bbe-20ba835711e1.html



Our View: Cheers and Jeers
16 hours ago • By Times-News Editorial Board
(6) Comments
CHEERS

A resounding cheers to the life of rancher Leonard “Bud” Purdy, who died this week at his home in Picabo, Idaho..
The 96-year-old rancher was at the forefront of sustainable ranching techniques, headed the University of Idaho Foundation for a time and palled around with the likes of Ernest Hemingway.
Purdy is one of those seminal individuals whose legacy will live on for decades. He will be missed.

JEERS

Jeers to unjustified, dangerous anger.

Gun-toting “militia” swarmed Nevada rancher Clive Bundy last week after Bureau of Land Management officials began rounding up his cattle grazing on public land. Bundy has racked up a $1 million bill over the years by refusing to pay the federal government the feeble per-cow/calf grazing rate. The two sides pointed guns at each other for days.
Some saw BLM’s move as another assault on liberty by an overreaching government. But, in reality, it was bureaucrats looking to treat everyone the same.


atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Apr 20, 2014 - 12:51am PT
Save the sage grouse! So Ron's dumb ass can shoot them.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 20, 2014 - 01:02am PT
Ron? Re your reply:

Fritz,, you failed to mention Gov Sandoval, Congressman Amodei, The entire NV legislature and Senator Heller. And today we sold about 31 guns ! Ohh lordy the horror..And we almost ran out of 9mm ammo. YOWZA!

ps, i havent seen a fox news show in perhaps a decade. But you ramble on..


Sigh! It is a good thing that your first name isn't Pinocchio!

It's OK though, you & your folks have to build legends about your lies.

dirtbag

climber
Apr 20, 2014 - 02:26am PT
You know what this thread is missing?











































































The only thing this thread is missing?














































































Lois.
John M

climber
Apr 20, 2014 - 02:30am PT
L Ron EBbard

Founder of the church of Scatology


sorry ron.. couldn't resist.. heh heh
Tony

Trad climber
Pt. Richmond, CA
Apr 20, 2014 - 02:36am PT
bird that isnt even close to endangered.

A decline in Sage Grouse population from 16 million to 200-500,000, or 97-99% is not threatened? Are you kidding??
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 20, 2014 - 06:00am PT
Ron is showing himself to be such a staunch defender of the environment one wonders if he will be joining the ranks of ELF.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_Liberation_Front


The ELF was classified as the top "domestic terror" threat in the United States by the Federal Bureau of Investigation in March 2001,[8][9] and its members are categorized as "eco-terrorists".[

Eco-terrorists really?
They must have cut down those trees them selves to protest the Tyranny of da Gubmint.

Of course Ron's Brigade could be cast as eCOW-terrorists.
jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Apr 20, 2014 - 09:20am PT
Wheres the outrage and the armed militia support over this?

https://www.courthousenews.com/2013/07/03/59061.htm

Same state, better case than Bundy,s BS, IMHO.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 20, 2014 - 10:01am PT
It's almost as if people act in outrage based on the presentation of a select set of facts instead of looking to get as much information as possible.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 20, 2014 - 10:58am PT
You see i dont use google to find that out, but rather am out there along with my fellow Nevadans to actually see for themselves

hahahaaa... unquantified subjective experiences, the basis of all that is Right and good in the world.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 20, 2014 - 10:59am PT
Well Ron I took your advice and Googled "Ron's Ass" and this is what I got.
What "other words" do you suggest I use to Google Ron's Ass?

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 20, 2014 - 11:10am PT
Locker..thanks for the reminder...I'm going climbing as soon as i get the sand out from between my toe...
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 20, 2014 - 11:21am PT
Ron...Tempting offer...Do you have any M-50 clips...I'm mpunting one in the back of my 64 El Rancho and heading to Columbia to join the Revolutiones...rj
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 20, 2014 - 11:25am PT
Ron..Is the 20% discount include bow staffs...? rj
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 20, 2014 - 11:30am PT
The shark has been jumped.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 20, 2014 - 11:33am PT
Hey wingnuts, there's a firearms thread where you mental midgets can hang out.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 20, 2014 - 11:40am PT
Full of sh#t with false equivalencies.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 20, 2014 - 11:58am PT
I think the Repub's should make Ron their spokesperson. Get him up their rantin' about the FEDS and such, doing his best Timothy McVeigh/Unabomber impression.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 20, 2014 - 12:16pm PT
Thanks, Lunker, I'm checking out the Hogsback today.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Apr 20, 2014 - 12:16pm PT
doesn't carrot cake already have a spokesperson?
overwatch

climber
Apr 20, 2014 - 12:33pm PT
Glanton
That last one was some funnysh#t..the first part anyway
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 20, 2014 - 12:40pm PT
Here's how Mr. Conservative, Bill Kristol, played it on "This Week". The mainstream right is running away from their lunatic cousins on the fringe right, Ron, et al, armed militia members...

If you all watched Nevada this week, there was a pretty remarkable scene. You saw militia members standing off against the Bureau of Land Management. Bureau of Land Management went in, took a couple of hundred heads of cattle from a land owner out there who had not paid grazing fees, $1 million. Look at this, these are the militias standing off. The BLM backed off. This is what Harry Reid, the Senator from Nevada said about this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. HARRY REID, (D) NEVADA: These people who hold themselves out to be patriots are not, they're nothing more than domestic terrorists. I repeat, what went on up there is domestic terrorism.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RADDATZ: Domestic terrorism, Bill Kristol.

KRISTOL: I'm not sure I'd use that phrase, but he's no hero, Cliven Bundy, and the people who rallied to threaten force against law enforcement agents doing what they were authorized to do by courts and by their superiors are no heroes either. There are ways to change the law. He went through court, I gather, this gentleman, for about 20 years. He kept losing court cases. If the federal government controls too many -- too much land in Nevada and the west, which they do, there are ways to change that legally too.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 20, 2014 - 12:42pm PT
Ron posted
You see i dont use google to find that out, but rather am out there along with my fellow Nevadans to actually see for themselves

Exactly. Just like your very scientific "go into a bar on a weekday and ask how many people are out of work" unemployment methodology I have full confidence that your number is extremely accurate.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 20, 2014 - 12:44pm PT
body armor piercing rounds

Pfff! - nuclear ammo is the way to go. Turn me on deadman.



Depleted uranium is very dense; at 19,050 kg/m³, it is 1.67 times as dense as lead, only slightly less dense than tungsten and gold, and 84% as dense as osmium or iridium, which are the densest known substances under standard (i.e., Earth-surface) pressures. Consequently a DU projectile of given mass has a smaller diameter than an equivalent lead projectile, with less aerodynamic drag and deeper penetration due to a higher pressure at point of impact. DU projectile ordnance is often inherently incendiary because of its pyrophoric property.



rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 20, 2014 - 12:45pm PT
Locker...get the hell out of your sh#t shack and go climb in the dump... you wing nut...rj
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 20, 2014 - 01:00pm PT
'Dottin' the Cotton'
jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Apr 20, 2014 - 01:02pm PT
I like the Raging Bull in 454, since you can run 45colt in it too. But the 8in barrel is nose heavy, so go shorter.

The sp101 is another fine gun, but only 5rds in 357. Gota have at least a 4in barrel in NV to hunt big game with a pistol, and some other caliber-specific requirements too.


See Ron? Nobody batted an eye at the genuine violation of rights i posted above. They,re more concerned about who,s got the guns.
jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Apr 20, 2014 - 01:05pm PT
Meanwhile, today i,m sorting gear to decide which is getting sold (cheap) to a 20yo kid i work with. Took him and his gf climbing, and they,re hooked. Now i gota teach a noob.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 20, 2014 - 01:15pm PT



Great one more thread lost to bullets and butthholes.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 20, 2014 - 01:20pm PT
And people wonder why the BLM was armed. F*#king Americans and their hard on for guns.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 20, 2014 - 01:27pm PT
If there is one thing that could drive me away from this site it is the incessant frothing of right wing gun huggers and their perverse paranoia and passion for fire power.

All I want to know is what is the preferred round for shooting AmeriKKKan Taliban and can Ron get me a 20% discount on a truck load?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 20, 2014 - 01:37pm PT
But that's isn't the only or most important thing in your life.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 20, 2014 - 01:42pm PT
Locker...Take your 2 inch bulldog over to the TMI thread...rj
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 20, 2014 - 01:44pm PT
Yes I am sure the gun huggers are equally apoplectic about fears the Forest Service will come and take away their garden hoses. Probably planning on burning the forests down to fight tyrannical hegemony.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 20, 2014 - 01:47pm PT
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 20, 2014 - 01:50pm PT
What no weapons on the wheels?
jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Apr 20, 2014 - 01:55pm PT
Huh, so the facts including armed LEO and armf militia are irrelevent? And the earlier post re other rights abuses are overshadowed by mere mention of guns?
Hell, i even mention something climbing-related for ya.
Sensitive lot...
Fine. Be a pansy.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Apr 20, 2014 - 02:04pm PT
Typical
rong gets a job a gun store

Funny, he cried for the longest time about no jobs in Nevada and now the shop where he's working is busy as heck.


Funny too is how opinionated conjecture and fallacy have so much in common.
jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Apr 20, 2014 - 02:06pm PT
You know what? Im out. Back to climbing threads. You guys are just too f*#king whiney in the off-topic crap. Especially if anyone mentions firearms. Go smoke a bowl and bitch about it to some people who will confirm your bias.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 20, 2014 - 02:11pm PT
Locker!

Re your assertion!

This thread HAD potential until it became JUST ANOTHER BASH RON A THREAD...

When the bashing on Ron starts ALL good conversation LEAVES...

Too bad those here that love to hound the dude don't catch and MOVE ON...

I mostly agree, but really need to ask??? WHY DID RON ANDERSON RUN OVER THE EASTER BUNNY??

jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Apr 20, 2014 - 02:20pm PT
So- what should i sell the kid for a hundred bucks or two?
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Apr 20, 2014 - 02:29pm PT
Those are endangered Sage Grouse eggs, the bunny got what it deserved.;^}
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 20, 2014 - 02:31pm PT
Locker...Ron loves the attention.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Apr 20, 2014 - 02:37pm PT
I doubt that it is the MOST IMPORTANT thing for MOST people

I don't know, it's definitely in philo's top three

Dr F and Bob D'A frequently get hysterical about it, so I bet it's close there too
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 20, 2014 - 03:59pm PT
Difference is we are not trying to shove guns down every body's throats.
Or define manliness by caliber.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 20, 2014 - 04:02pm PT

Ron Anderson should be left alone. He is angry and fed up.

He has every right to be done with this forum, and he has promised to do so.

Why not respect his promise?

SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz CA
Apr 20, 2014 - 04:05pm PT
Or define manliness by caliber.

You're not.


Susan
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 20, 2014 - 04:35pm PT
http://www.courthousenews.com/2013/07/03/59061.htm

To read what jonnyrig was pointing at


The Mitchells seek punitive damages for violations of the third, fourth and 14th Amendments, assault and battery, conspiracy, defamation, abuse of process, malicious prosecution, negligence and emotional distress.

No SecondAmendmentee no Washee - I guess.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 20, 2014 - 04:36pm PT
he can't

because it feels too good to him
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 20, 2014 - 05:36pm PT
neversummer

climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
Apr 21, 2014 - 10:17am PT
Sam Adams knows....
dirtbag

climber
Apr 21, 2014 - 10:57am PT
How long could anyone here get away with stopping rent payments, then squatting in the rental until the landlord calls the cops? Two weeks?

Not two decades.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 21, 2014 - 11:07am PT
Ron. Please get on with your life.

Yoy've seen these photos previously on this thread, and I'm astounded that you choose to ignore them. Doesn't look like this right-wing whack-job was targeting snipers, and his assault weapon may only be semi-automatic, but it was designed to kill people not to hunt game with.

http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/04/18/fox-champions-bundy-supporters-who-threatened-v/198947
Flat on his belly in a sniper position, wearing a baseball cap and a flak jacket, a protester aimed his semi-automatic rifle from the edge of an overpass and waited as a crowd below stood its ground against U.S. federal agents in the Nevada desert. [Reuters, 4/17/14]
dirtbag

climber
Apr 21, 2014 - 11:16am PT
Except, Ron, they didn't wait 20 years. The matter was tied up in Court while Bundy had his due process.

But instead of respecting the rule of law he'd rather give the finger and continue to mooch off taxpayers, pretending to be some oppressed little cowpoke.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 21, 2014 - 11:17am PT
Ron continues to milk his five minutes of fame.

Fecking hilarious, the guy never stop playing army from his childhood days.

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 21, 2014 - 11:27am PT
The BLM had every right to do what they did in Nevada...it is written into Nevada state laws.

"All political power is inherent in the people. Government is instituted for the protection, security and benefit of the people; and they have the right to alter or reform the same whenever the public good may require it. But the Paramount Allegiance of every citizen is due to the Federal Government in the exercise of all its Constitutional powers as the same have been or may be defined by the Supreme Court of the United States; and no power exists in the people of this or any other State of the Federal Union to dissolve their connection therewith or perform any act tending to impair, subvert, or resist the Supreme Authority of the government of the United States. The Constitution of the United States confers full power on the Federal Government to maintain and Perpetuate its existence, and whensoever any portion of the States, or people thereof attempt to secede from the Federal Union, or forcibly resist the Execution of its laws, the Federal Government may, by warrant of the Constitution, employ armed force in compelling obedience to its Authority."


http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/04/the-irony-of-cliven-bundys-unconstitutional-stand/360587/


Go back to your cave Ron.


Ron wrote: And FYI fare more ST users and lurkers support this position than the few here crying...


And they are as dumb and misinformed as you are.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 21, 2014 - 11:34am PT
It is Nevada law, something you just can't seem to understand.


You are a freaking whackjob.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 21, 2014 - 11:39am PT
How many times do i tell you this ISNT just about one rancher and grazing fees until that sinks in??

Absolutely! It is about hating America... about hating our government... about the use of violence to promote your ideas of right and wrong, regardless of the legal system... in short it is about anarchy.

America... love it or use violence to get your way.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 21, 2014 - 11:40am PT
"you don't point guns at cops."...

Unless you're aimin' to kill them at which point all bets are off.

Tell me Ron is there an intrinsic difference between pointing a gun at a cop and pointing a joint?

Maybe Nevadastan should legalize pot to show the Feds who's boss.
Besides y'all need to light up or at least lighten up.



And Locker you should GO CLIMBING before you make too much sense and too many lurking coward enemys.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 21, 2014 - 11:46am PT
What???? You mean STATES rights should come before FEDERAL laws?? How dare you...

Who said that?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 21, 2014 - 11:49am PT
Well the OhCOWpie MOOvement has set a helluva precedent but what's the "End Game" Ron? What do YOU want to see happen? Is there a win/win out there?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 21, 2014 - 11:54am PT
Nevada has a medical marijuana program, one of 21 states.

Yes, they accept cards from other states.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 21, 2014 - 12:01pm PT
What? Ron was wrong about something in NV? I don't believe it. Next thing you know Chaz will be telling us all it is our constitutional right to point guns at federal agents.

America... love it or use violence to change it.

The Second Amendment... because the founding fathers knew their system of government wouldn't work and in the end violence is the only answer.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 21, 2014 - 12:02pm PT
Ron wrote: Much like the health care im paying for but YET to actually see it , or have it.. Another FEDRERAL mandate.. And another program wrought with dysfunction.

You really can't be that dumb???


Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 21, 2014 - 12:14pm PT
this is very entertaining
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 21, 2014 - 12:15pm PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Maria_Baca_Grant_No._4


Luis Maria Baca Grant No. 4
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Luis Maria Baca Grant No. 4, south of Crestone, Colorado, was a large land grant made in 1860 by the United States to the heirs of the original Vegas Grandes Grant at Las Vegas, New Mexico.[1][2] Title to the grant at Las Vegas was clouded by a second grant of the same land.[2] The Baca heirs were offered alternative lands from the public lands of the United States.[2] The largest of the tracts selected, near what is now Crestone,[2] was 12.5 miles (20.1 km) on a side and was located to the south of what is now Saguache County Road T, about 1-mile (1.6 km) south of the 38th parallel. The Bacas deeded the land to their attorney, but it soon passed by tax sale to a third party. The ranch headquarters was on Crestone Creek to the southwest of Crestone. The Baca Grant was one of the first large tracts of land to be fenced in the West and in its heyday was the home of prize Hereford cattle.[3]

In addition to ranching there was some mining in the area to the east and south of Crestone, some on the lands of the grant, but no big strikes. In 1880 the town of Crestone was platted by George Adams, the owner of the Baca Grant. In 1900, with the help of Eastern investors, George Adams ignited a minor boom, reopening one of the more promising mines and building a railroad spur to the town and the mines along the Sangre de Cristo Range south of town. However, lacking good ore, the boom was short-lived. A long period of decline followed.

View from the northwestern corner of the original grant
By 1948 Crestone had declined to its post-war population of 40 souls, mostly retired folks and cowboys who worked on The Grant, as the Baca Grant was called locally. In 1971 a portion of the Baca Grant, under the corporate ownership of the Arizona-Colorado Land and Cattle Company, immediately south of Crestone, was subdivided, creating the Baca Grande, a subdivision originally platted for about 10,000 lots. At great expense, underground utilities were installed and roads built. However, sales lagged and by 1979 the development was considered a liability by the corporation, then renamed AZL. Maurice Strong, owner of a controlling interest in AZL and his fiancée Hanne Marstrand visited the development and "fell in love with it." The Strongs were inspired to create a world spiritual center and began granting parcels of land to traditional spiritual organizations.

In the late eighties, the remaining lands and waters of the ranch, now termed the "Baca Ranch" or "Baca", were used as a base by the corporate ownership of the ranch, reorganized as "American Water Development, Inc" (AWDI), to make an application in the Colorado Water Courts to develop and export deep underground water to the front range cities of Colorado. This application was vigorously opposed by the local community in the San Luis Valley and met defeat in the Colorado Supreme Court in 1991.[4][2]

In 1995, with the Baca under new ownership, a new group of investors initiated another water exportation plan. The Stockman's Water plan, as it was known, was the creation of San Luis Valley native Gary Boyce and his Cabeza de Baca company. The Stockman's Water plan was defeated in the Colorado legislature in 1998.[5]

Bankrupt, the lands of the corporation, after sustained litigation, were purchased by the Nature Conservancy and subsequently incorporated into the public lands of the United States, the southern and eastern portions as national forest and the Great Sand Dunes National Park and Preserve and the northern and western portions as the Baca National Wildlife Refuge.[6] The original ranch headquarters and other buildings are on the wildlife refuge. As is usual on federal wildlife refuges, grazing and hay production continue on a limited basis.

___

This was a far reaching case that effected many more people's real lives than the clown show in Nevada. Surely not everyone was happy with the outcome, particularly some very very wealthy folk who for a change didn't get their way when the PEOPLE spoke. They spoke with their vote without need to resort to armed insurrection. The LEGAL outcome gives maximum benefit to the majority of users. Here is a case where Federal involvement and land management has paid off for the better.

This is the way we handle things in the great and civilized state of Stonerado.


Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 21, 2014 - 12:21pm PT
Ron: All I got out of you was some bluster, when I answered your Monday Morning posting.

Are you so delusional that you can continue to ignore reality?

Among other things you asserted:

His statement in Las Vegas last week was full of outright lies inf fact. NO ONE other than FED armed officers had any "automatic weapons" there. Harry Reid seems to need instruction on the difference.

Harry Reid then stated that the protesters had snipers on the hills.. Yes indeed they did, but Harry REID left out the part where those snipers were aiming at FEDERAL snipers who were aiming at the protesters.


My response was:

Apr 21, 2014 - 08:07am PT
Ron. Please get on with your life.

Yoy've seen these photos previously on this thread, and I'm astounded that you choose to ignore them. Doesn't look like this right-wing whack-job was targeting snipers, and his assault weapon may only be semi-automatic, but it was designed to kill people, not to hunt game with.

http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/04/18/fox-champions-bundy-supporters-who-threatened-v/198947

Flat on his belly in a sniper position, wearing a baseball cap and a flak jacket, a protester aimed his semi-automatic rifle from the edge of an overpass and waited as a crowd below stood its ground against U.S. federal agents in the Nevada desert. [Reuters, 4/17/14]

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 21, 2014 - 12:24pm PT
Is Ron answering echo mail, bakin em biskits or trying to figure out how to get out of terminal hoof in mouth disease?

Or maybe he is beginning to realize that his Ted Nuggent Patriot Pants need some long over due attending.

Simple, straight forward questions asked respectfully answered with deflection or not at all.
Does anyone really wonder why he is the recipient of much derision?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 21, 2014 - 12:29pm PT
Nah, Ron has to work... whenever people point out indisputable facts that contradict his stance. He lets the conversation drift before coming back with more false claims he is 100% certain are true.

A simple "oops, yeah, I guess NV does have a medicinal marijuana program..." etc, would go a long way. But we all know that will NEVER happen.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 21, 2014 - 12:29pm PT
Here you go Locker: Why? You gonna move there and join the militia? :)

Ballot Question 9 -- Approved Nov. 7, 2000 by 65% of voters
Effective: Oct. 1, 2001

Removes state-level criminal penalties on the use, possession and cultivation of marijuana by patients who have "written documentation" from their physician that marijuana may alleviate his or her condition.

Approved Conditions: AIDS; cancer; glaucoma; and any medical condition or treatment to a medical condition that produces cachexia, persistent muscle spasms or seizures, severe nausea or pain. Other conditions are subject to approval by the health division of the state Department of Human Resources.

Possession/Cultivation: Patients (or their primary caregivers) may legally possess no more than one ounce of usable marijuana, three mature plants, and four immature plants.

Registry: The law establishes a confidential state-run patient registry that issues identification cards to qualifying patients. Patients who do not join the registry or possess greater amounts of marijuana than allowed by law may argue the "affirmative defense of medical necessity" if they are arrested on marijuana charges. Legislators added a preamble to the legislation stating, "[T]he state of Nevada as a sovereign state has the duty to carry out the will of the people of this state and regulate the health, medical practices and well-being of those people in a manner that respects their personal decisions concerning the relief of suffering through the medical use of marijuana." A separate provision requires the Nevada School of Medicine to "aggressively" seek federal permission to establish a state-run medical marijuana distribution program.

Amended: Assembly Bill 453 (25 KB)
Effective: Oct. 1, 2001

Created a state registry for patients whose physicians recommend medical marijuana and tasked the Department of Motor Vehicles with issuing identification cards. No state money will be used for the program, which will be funded entirely by donations.

Amended: Senate Bill 374 (280 KB)
Signed into law by Gov. Brian Sandoval on June 12, 2013

"Provides for the registration of medical marijuana establishments authorized to cultivate or dispense marijuana or manufacture edible marijuana products or marijuana-infused products for sale to persons authorized to engage in the medical use of marijuana...

From April 1, 2014, through March 31, 2016, a nonresident purchaser must sign an affidavit attesting to the fact that he or she is entitled to engage in the medical use of marijuana in his or her state or jurisdiction of residency. On and after April 1, 2016, the requirement for such an affidavit is replaced by computer cross-checking between the State of Nevada and other jurisdictions." Patients who were growing before July 1, 2013 are allowed to continue home cultivation until March 31, 2016.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 21, 2014 - 12:33pm PT
Why aren't these whack jobs in jail for interfering with a peace officer?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 21, 2014 - 12:33pm PT
Medical Marijuana approved by over 60% of Nevada voters.

All right Nevada! Way to enter part of the 21st century.
Bongs 4 Bundy. he clearly would qualify under the psycho statute.
WBraun

climber
Apr 21, 2014 - 12:35pm PT
Why aren't these whack jobs in jail for interfering with a peace officer?


If you don't know the answer to that then you are a terrible at political science ......
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 21, 2014 - 12:35pm PT
Doesn't look like this right-wing whack-job was targeting snipers, and his assault weapon may only be semi-automatic, but it was designed to kill people, not to hunt game with.

A good deer-hunting rifle would probably be more effective than the "assault weapon" you seem to be concerned about.
If people were aiming their guns at other people without a clear (legal) reason for doing so, I'd like to see those people brought to justice. Not sure if that's federal agents, "civilians," both, or neither at this point.
(And I'm also not even really sure that pointing a gun at someone, if they don't see it, is a crime. Reckless endangerment perhaps?)

Obviously LEO's have legal reasons to point guns at people, but that doesn't mean that it's lawful in all circumstances.

Why aren't these whack jobs in jail for interfering with a peace officer?
I don't know--did it ever occur to you that the government may realize that attempting to prosecute the "whack jobs" may cause some problems? For example, maybe the "whack jobs" aren't in fact guilty. Or (more likely, IMHO), the government realized that prosecuting the whack jobs would likely expose things that the government would not like exposed (perhaps crimes committed by the government and its agents, perhaps just bullying behavior that may in fact be legal, but would lead to criticism).
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 21, 2014 - 12:40pm PT
It's all just fun and war games till someone puts a bullet out.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 21, 2014 - 12:41pm PT
Ron has a point

this is not really about Bundy at all

it IS about protesting government

not the government that builds the roads, delivers water and electricity or clean water

not the government that runs our wonderful military

not the government sending out the SS checks and healthcare dollars every day

but instead, the government ....in general...ya know?
dirtbag

climber
Apr 21, 2014 - 12:41pm PT
Blah blah, faux news has rotted your brain.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 21, 2014 - 12:43pm PT
Norton you mean the Tyrannical Government that took everyone's guns away and herded them all into FEMA camps for conversion to Islam?


Don't anyone hold their breath waiting for answers from Ron. He has NO answers.
In fact he should contact Paradox Sports because he doesn't have a leg to stand on.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 21, 2014 - 12:48pm PT
Oh COWpie MOOvement I caint quit ewe.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 21, 2014 - 12:50pm PT
You forgot Agenda 21!
dirtbag

climber
Apr 21, 2014 - 12:58pm PT
And Area 51!
dirtbag

climber
Apr 21, 2014 - 12:58pm PT
And Heinz 57!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 21, 2014 - 12:59pm PT
Put them together and you have Paranoid Delusion 72.


Menu item 129
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 21, 2014 - 01:00pm PT
I hate my government

anyone join me on this?

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 21, 2014 - 01:03pm PT



Hey Werner our raft will need propulsion. Can we use what putters out of your lips? Either set no difference. :-)
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Apr 21, 2014 - 01:14pm PT
I don’t recognize the United States government as even existing.”
Nevada’s Cliven Bundy

http://www.salon.com/2014/04/19/cliven_bundys_ailing_america_what_a_wingnut_ranchers_rise_says_about_our_waning_democracy/

Why to they bother flying our American flag, then? Are they no longer Americans? What country do these foreigners align with?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 21, 2014 - 01:18pm PT
Mordor.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 21, 2014 - 01:25pm PT
^^^ Excellent. One of the specious arguments that irrational gun-huggers use to oppose any new rational gun laws is that we already have enough laws. They also say the gun laws we do have are just not adequately enforced.
Well theres the law plain as day, time for some adequate enforcement.



I'm curious about where all those OhCOWpie MOOvement folk had all their moovements?
Did the BLM provide porta pottys? Or did the Protestors open up their RVs? You don't suppose those Patri-idiotic protestors went poo poo in the dessert do you? Nah, real AmeriKKKans like them just use their Ted Nuggent Pantys.
Now available in AmeriKKKan flag motif and Xtra dumbo size at WalMart.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 21, 2014 - 01:45pm PT
And likely there are US codes that apply to pointing a weapon at federal officer.

But do we really need to play lawyer here?

You don't point guns a cops.

It's that simple.

It's usually that simple, but self-defense (which may, in some cases, essentially include the defense of others) is an exception that makes it not that simple in all cases.

The fact that the ranchers and their allies weren't arrested may suggest that this case isn't as simple as some of you think. Or it may just be that the federal agents were in a good mood that day and gave everyone a pass. Or they didn't want to be bothered with all that paperwork.

For now, I'm sticking with my theory that that the feds don't really want their actions scrutinized as they would be if they charged the ranchers/allies--I don't necessarily think the ranchers/allies have any reasonable self-defense claim, just putting that out as a possibility to those of you who don't seem to be aware of the existence of affirmative defenses.
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Apr 21, 2014 - 02:15pm PT
This Bundy dude and his scrawny cows are a smudge on the pavement - not worth a federal showdown for Fox to showcase. Why would BLM waste their time entering onto "combat" with these non-American domestic terrorists holding out in the middle of nowhere? Who cares?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 21, 2014 - 02:17pm PT
WE'RE MORE AMERICAN THAN YOU!

Wait, you're the American government? We're definitely more American than you!

We uphold the constipation! Wait, the gov't is following the law? THE LAW DOESN'T APPLY!!

We have the right to keep and bear arms!! Wait, it's against the law to point a gun at a federal officer? THE LAW DOESN'T APPLY!!


Obama is the downfall of America!! Wait, the Supremes upheld the Affordable Care Act?
THE SUPREMES DON'T APLLY!!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 21, 2014 - 02:20pm PT

Hey Ron if the real threat to the desert tortoise is from crows be our guest and start eating.
neversummer

climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
Apr 21, 2014 - 02:24pm PT
Keeping the west rowdy...
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 21, 2014 - 02:25pm PT
Only real Americans aim loaded weapons at law enforcement

Rest of y'all are just sheep blindly following your Muslim king Obummer
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 21, 2014 - 02:30pm PT
Meanwhile in the real world.


http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2009/04/conservatives-d/

Conservatives Decry Homeland Security Report on “Rightwing” Extremism
By Caitlin Taylor
Apr 15, 2009 9:45am
Yesterday, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich tweeted that "The person who drafted the outrageous homeland security memo smearing veterans and conservatives should be fired."
Gingrich was referring to this report prepared by the Department of Homeland Security’s Extremism and Radicalization Branch, Homeland Environment Threat Analysis Division, and coordinated with the FBI.
As Fox News has reported, DHS also issued a study of the threat of leftwing extremists (read it HERE.) But the report on the rightwing extremists is the one attracting heat in the conservative bloggosphere, from Gingrich, Michelle Malkin, Powerline, and elsewhere.
The report states that while DHS "has no specific information that domestic rightwing terrorists are currently planning acts of violence…rightwing extremists may be gaining new recruits by playing on their fears about several emergent issues."
DHS defines "rightwing" as "broadly divided into those groups, movements, and adherents that are primarily hate-oriented (based on hatred of particular religious, racial or ethnic groups), and those that are mainly antigovernment, rejecting federal authority in favor of state or local authority, or rejecting government authority entirely. It may include groups and individuals that are dedicated to a single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration."
The "emergent issues," the DHS report states, include both "the election of the first African American president" and "a prolonged economic downturn—including real estate foreclosures, unemployment, and an inability to obtain credit," which DHS says "present unique drivers for rightwing radicalization and recruitment."
"A recent example of the potential violence associated with a rise in rightwing extremism may be found in the shooting deaths of three police officers in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, on 4 April 2009," the report states. "The alleged gunman’s reaction reportedly was influenced by his racist ideology and belief in antigovernment conspiracy theories related to gun confiscations, citizen detention camps, and a Jewish-controlled ‘one world government.’"
Other potential dynamics that could help these groups’ recruitment, the report states, included proposed "imposition of firearms restrictions and weapons bans" and the debate over illegal immigration.
"Over the past five years, various rightwing extremists, including militias and white supremacists, have adopted the immigration issue as a call to action, rallying point, and recruiting tool," the report states. "Debates over appropriate immigration levels and enforcement policy generally fall within the realm of protected political speech under the First Amendment, but in some cases, anti-immigration or strident pro-enforcement fervor has been directed against specific groups and has the potential to turn violent."
The report states concern that returning "veterans possess combat skills and experience that are attractive to rightwing extremists," who may attempt to recruit and radicalize the veterans "in order to exploit their skills and knowledge derived from military training and combat. These skills and knowledge have the potential to boost the capabilities of extremists—including lone wolves or small terrorist cells—to carry out violence. The willingness of a small percentage of military personnel to join extremist groups during the 1990s because they were disgruntled, disillusioned, or suffering from the psychological effects of war is being replicated today."
"After Operation Desert Shield/Storm in 1990-1991, some returning military veterans—including Timothy McVeigh—joined or associated with rightwing extremist groups," the report states. "A prominent civil rights organization reported in 2006 that ‘large numbers of potentially violent neo-Nazis, skinheads, and other white supremacists are now learning the art of warfare in the [U.S.] armed forces. The FBI noted in a 2008 report on the white supremacist movement that some returning military veterans from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have joined extremist groups."
Sean Hannity and Dr. James Dobson chatted about this report on Fox News last night, which Hannity interpreted as targeting "people who think maybe we’re not controlling our borders" and "people who have pro-life bumper stickers."
“What do you think of that interpretation, especially coming from a guy that started his political career in the home of an unrepentant terrorist who bombed our Pentagon and Capitol and sat in Reverend Wright’s church for 20 years?” Hannity asked.
Dobson said "there are no Timothy McVeighs out there right now. They’re making a big deal out of something that hasn’t happened and may not happen."
 jpt
jstan

climber
Apr 21, 2014 - 02:48pm PT
In the Ukraine,several African countries, Afghanistan, the US, to mention a few, we have organized armed militia executing their own will. This is not new. Consider the Alamo or events during the Civil War here. Do not expect this to be pretty and do not expect equity to be served.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 21, 2014 - 02:58pm PT
Anarchy is awesome!

USA USA USA... except when I disagree... in which case BLOODY REVOLUTION!
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 21, 2014 - 03:12pm PT
Don't you have some guns to sell Ron?
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 21, 2014 - 03:28pm PT
Even retarded Joe Biden approves of that purchase Ron!
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 21, 2014 - 03:32pm PT
WHO may i ask is ASKING for a civil war?? No one i know, not even members of my brigade..Some of you seem far gone down a road, and its not me.

Most of these ignorant fukwads seem to really, really, really want a civil war. They don't appear to be asking, but rather demanding one at gun point.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2014/apr/20/world-through-militia-eyes/
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 21, 2014 - 03:48pm PT
I guess now that you are an official Un-American Oaf Creeper that "Buying American" ain't what it used to be eh?


I wonder if Ron ever met a guy he wouldn't sell a gun to?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 21, 2014 - 04:12pm PT
Dude, it was all laid out clearly by our founding fathers... we have 3 branches of government... a system of checks and balances... when you disagree with one or more, you take up arms to assert your position.

Pretty simple really.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 21, 2014 - 04:13pm PT
This was a slightly interesting link:
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2014/apr/20/world-through-militia-eyes/

When the group got to the two interstate bridges, militiamen took to high ground on the southbound bridge, pointing their guns into the wash, just in case a firefight broke out. Below the other bridge, BLM agents in full tactical gear had rifles pointed at as many as 1,000 supporters standing in protest, according to eyewitness accounts.

Mostly just skimmed it, but it does appear that the federal agents violated the NV statute Kos posted regarding it being illegal to point guns at people. I'm sure that the statute would not apply to a LEO in the lawful performance of his duties (just as it wouldn't apply to someone properly engaging in self defense of defense of others). But it's hard to see how cops pointing guns at peaceful protesters is lawful. At least I hope it's not.

The public would probably be better served if the protesters engaged in illegal conduct (assuming there were some) were arrested, likewise with the federal agents.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 21, 2014 - 04:17pm PT
"Peaceful" protesters don't show up with arsenals.


Your really stretching Blahblah.
But keep your eye on the prize we know it'll fit.




Or if you prefer you could join Ron's Brigade.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 21, 2014 - 04:23pm PT
The public would probably be better served if the protesters engaged in illegal conduct

The public would definitely be better served if the protesters didn't threaten the LEGAL land owners with VIOLENCE when they attempted to execute a COURT ORDER to remove the ILLEGAL cattle from their land.

Anarchy.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 21, 2014 - 04:44pm PT
Sure, as long as you have the proper fire permit.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 21, 2014 - 04:50pm PT
The BLM took back hoes and dump trucks in and across the "endangered desert tortoise" habitats to dig up and ruin all the water improvements that were put their LEGALLY. They had no court order to do so. They then body slammed a 59 yr old woman to the ground- and also had no PC or legal right to do that. They then told of, and were recorded,, the orders they had to shoot anyone attempting to set free cattle in a temporary holding pen contrary to EVERY law enforcement agency in America. They were "authorized" to shoot ANYONE there with a gun, contrary to NV state laws...

Specifically, under what legal authority were these improvements put in place?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 21, 2014 - 05:04pm PT
Nobody is pointing guns at cops, Mr Kos. How do I know this, being no closer to Nevada than you are? Because nobody has been shot, which is what happens to people who point guns at cops.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 21, 2014 - 05:16pm PT
The women taking pics of the sniper in the back ground is funny...Oh look , there's a sniper , put him on you tube...
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Apr 21, 2014 - 05:16pm PT
200+ heavily armed federal agents show up to collect grazing fees and the clowns here on this stupid forum, focus on Bundy and a militia that never fired a shot...

Utterly pathetic....
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 21, 2014 - 05:20pm PT
Mr Kos writes:

"I'm sure he's aiming at the dirt."



It's impossible to tell what he's aiming at. I know what he's not aiming at; Cops. I know that because people who aim guns at cops are shot ( or arrested, or both ), and nobody there was shot or arrested.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 21, 2014 - 05:23pm PT
This whole notion of "the cops get to point their guns, so I can too" is idiotic.
Agreed. But I don't think anyone said that on this thread, at least that I'm aware of.

You don't point guns at cops.

It's that simple.

//ARGUMENT BY REPETITION
argumentum ad nauseam

(also known as: argument from nagging, proof by assertion)

Description: Repeating an argument or a premise over and over again in place of better supporting evidence.

Logical Form:

X is true. X is true. X is true. X is true. X is true. X is true... etc//

See http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/50-argument-by-repetition

As a heuristic, I agree that not pointing guns at cops is good one! Even more so when your goal is to live, not to vindicate legal rights.

But you do have a right to defend yourself and others against unlawful actions taken by cops. As well as being obvious, people have posted cases on this thread where that has properly occurred (or at least where courts have acknowledged that it could be a viable defense, depending on the facts).
Arguing this point is silly; we both know you have a right to defend yourself (and others) under appropriate circumstances, even when the aggressors happen to be cops. I know you think that isn't what happened here, you may well be right, I don't know.

Here's a question: why didn't the feds didn't arrest the "protesters"?
dirtbag

climber
Apr 21, 2014 - 05:26pm PT
Lol, stinkeye
dirtbag

climber
Apr 21, 2014 - 05:27pm PT
Same reason they didn't arrest Bundy: to avoid a shoot out with angry rednecks.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 21, 2014 - 05:29pm PT
So, what are the Feds doing there?

( besides menacing the locals )
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Apr 21, 2014 - 05:31pm PT
Sen. Harry Reid’s baseless ‘domestic terror’ accusations

By Marc A. Thiessen, Monday, April 21, 7:44 AM

Harry Reid did it again.

The Senate majority leader who called President Bush a “loser” and a “liar,” declared former Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan a “political hack” and asserted that all Obamacare horror stories are “untrue” has now called Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy and his supporters “domestic terrorists.”

Marc A. Thiessen

The comparison is as noxious as it is absurd. Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh was a domestic terrorist. The Unabomber was a domestic terrorist. Centennial Olympic Park bomber Eric Rudolph was a domestic terrorist. To equate Bundy and his supporters with these murderers is, quite simply, appalling.

It was the federal Bureau of Land Management that provoked the confrontation — descending with 200 armed men, including some with sniper rifles, to seize the Bundys’ cattle on land their family has grazed since 1877. Whatever one thinks of the Bundys’ legal case over unpaid grazing fees — and the federal government’s desire to protect the desert tortoise — defending your property against a paramilitary force of armed federal agents is not the equivalent of blowing up a federal building or sending letter bombs.

It would be easy to dismiss Reid as a buffoon with a chronic case of logorrhea. But this was not a slip of the tongue on Reid’s part. Video shows that when Reid first used the phrase “domestic terrorists” at a Las Vegas Review Journal event, he looked down at his notes just before he spoke the words. It was a carefully planned line of attack. Then, when he was asked during a Nevada TV interview a day later “What did you mean by that?” he replied, “Just what I said” — before engaging in an extended attack on the Bundy family and its supporters.

Why would Reid, the senior senator from Nevada, make such an outrageous accusation?

First, Reid is defending the Obama administration from the charge that it used excessive force to try to seize the land. Most Americans recoil at the sight of armed federal agents training sniper rifles on a group of Boy Scouts, veterans, parents and grandparents engaged in civil disobedience. But if Bundy’s supporters are not protesters but “domestic terrorists,” then sending a federal force to confront them is not excessive.

Second, Reid is defending his former staffer, Neil Kornze, who presided over this debacle as the newly installed head of the Bureau of Land Management. Kornze, who is just 35 years old, was Reid’s handpicked choice to run the BLM. “Neil is just perfect for this position,” Reid declared when Kornze was nominated, adding that he “really understands the role of public lands in rural America, and natural resources across the West.”

In his first days on the job, Kornze demonstrated that understanding by launching a paramilitary raid against a Nevada rancher. Kornze tried to silence Bundy’s supporters by setting up “First Amendment Zones” where protesters would be corralled and fenced in like a bunch of cattle. And he provoked an armed standoff that might well have resulted in the death of innocent men, women and children. The only way his actions could be even remotely defensible is if he was confronting “domestic terrorists.”

Third, Reid is trying to discredit the critics of the federal government’s actions as extremists — and by extension all those who complain about the excesses of federal power. He wants to paint supporters of limited government as radicals so out of the mainstream that they are now even defending “domestic terrorists.”

But instead of painting conservatives as extremists, Reid is only painting Democrats as enemies of the Western way of life. The Bundy family’s cattle have been grazing on these lands for nearly 140 years — only to see armed federal agents try to seize their cattle. Even before the Bundy standoff, there was a larger movement afoot in Western states to take back control of federal lands within their borders. Last week, more than 50 elected officials from nine Western states gathered in Utah for a Legislative Summit on the Transfer for Public Lands. “What’s happened in Nevada is really just a symptom of a much larger problem,” said Utah House Speaker Becky Lockhart, who helped convene the meeting. “It’s time the states in the West come of age,” said Idaho House Speaker Scott Bedke. “We’re every bit as capable of managing the lands in our boundaries as the states east of Colorado.”

If Reid wants Democrats to be the party that responds to these growing calls for state control by sending armed federal forces to drive Western ranchers off of federal lands and seize their property, that is his choice. Calling his opponents “domestic terrorists” won’t solve his political problems — it will only make them worse.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 21, 2014 - 05:32pm PT

You're asking me why cops don't arrest someone every single time a law is broken?

...and you are claiming that I am the one who is being tedious?

You were being tedious, now you're being ridiculous.
So the reason why the feds didn't arrest the protesters is something like "so many crimes are committed that the cops just don't have time to arrest everyone"??
And they have to fill out all that paperwork after an arrest--just give 'em a warning and move on. Right . . . .

John M

climber
Apr 21, 2014 - 05:38pm PT
come on blah blah.. thats not what he said.

that place was a powder keg. it could have resulted in many people dying, which would have been a political nightmare. and a sad event. I'm glad that they backed off.

the bias in so many of the stories out there is sad. there are still stories coming out today that they killed his cows. and the stories that talk about the son getting taxed fail to mention that the son kick a police dog. I could be wrong, but I believe that police dogs are officers of the law, afforded the same protections. Kicking one should get you arrested. Not just taxed. Those officers were poorly trained.

It was a sad day all around.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 21, 2014 - 05:41pm PT
Someone should have given that domestic terrorist a high volt cattle prod in the ass.
John M

climber
Apr 21, 2014 - 05:44pm PT
Someone should have given that domestic terrorist a high volt cattle prod in the ass.

sad..

kind of sickening too.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 21, 2014 - 05:46pm PT




So, what are the Feds doing there?

( besides menacing the locals )

Enforcing the law.


Maybe that scofflaw/mooch Bundy and his redneck sympathizers do not give two sheets about that, but a lot of people do.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 21, 2014 - 05:52pm PT
come on blah blah.. thats not what he said.

that place was a powder keg. it could have resulted in many people dying, which would have been a political nightmare. and a sad event. I'm glad that they backed off.

John, your reason why the feds didn't arrest people (the "powder keg") is plausible, although I view it as unlikely. If the feds reasonably believed (that is, had evidence) that armed people from across the country came to the ranch to use force to prevent the feds from engaging in lawful conduct, and were illegally pointing weapons at feds, the feds should have arrested those people.
If they didn't, under those circumstances, the feds who made that decision should be removed from their offices for cowardice (or just failure to competently perform their jobs).

But that's not the reason Kos gave, he gave the old you-can't-expect-cops-to-arrest-everyone-who-commits-a-crime. That answer is certainly correct in some situations (think the Denver "420" powwow), but is ludicrous in the ranch situation.

Anonymous, boring, and knowitall is no way to go through life, son.
It's been working so far!
dirtbag

climber
Apr 21, 2014 - 05:54pm PT
Blah I'm sure many attendees had peaceful motives. But that kook on the overpass is a different story.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 21, 2014 - 05:58pm PT
The BLM were not there to collect grazing fees. There were there to remove cattle from public land per a court order. And the Nevada State Constitution gives them the right. There is nothing noble about this. If you don't like the laws, make up an excuse to avoid them, right?. It is all about trying to get over on the man:

***

Article 1, Section 2 of the Nevada Constitution:

All political power is inherent in the people. Government is instituted for the protection, security and benefit of the people; and they have the right to alter or reform the same whenever the public good may require it. But the Paramount Allegiance of every citizen is due to the Federal Government in the exercise of all its Constitutional powers as the same have been or may be defined by the Supreme Court of the United States; and no power exists in the people of this or any other State of the Federal Union to dissolve their connection therewith or perform any act tending to impair, subvert, or resist the Supreme Authority of the government of the United States. The Constitution of the United States confers full power on the Federal Government to maintain and Perpetuate its existence, and whensoever any portion of the States, or people thereof attempt to secede from the Federal Union, or forcibly resist the Execution of its laws, the Federal Government may, by warrant of the Constitution, employ armed force in compelling obedience to its Authority.

**

Sure it was written during the civil war, but it is still the law in Nevada, so I guess he does not recognize the state either.

This is just another opportunist loser trying to get over on the man. So many sheeple looking for an excuse to get out their camo, flak vests, guns and sh*t. Too easy to manipulate even for a 70+ year old Mormon rancher. And so many people are willing to put lives on the line to defend him.

Oh well, at least gun and ammo sales are up.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 21, 2014 - 05:59pm PT
I hear ya Locker.

This ain't rocket science.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 21, 2014 - 06:08pm PT
The Feds aren't enforcing the law.

How come nobody has been arrested or cited for anything?

Like that idiot with the Kalashnikov? If he actually was pointing at the cops, why have we not heard of his arrest? Assault on a cop is a major felony. That's not something the cops let slide ever, especially for someone stupid enough to do it in front of multiple eyewitnesses and cameras.

So, why no arrests or tickets, if the Feds are there on a law enforcement mission?
John M

climber
Apr 21, 2014 - 06:10pm PT
come on Chaz, the first order of business was to remove the cows.

just because there were no arrests doesn't mean the feds weren't enforcing the law.


did they fail in their job? Yep..
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 21, 2014 - 06:12pm PT
Then how come the Feds let the cows they caught loose?

They caught a bunch of cows, then turned them loose back where they caught them.

So the Feds aren't there on a round-up mission either.

I'm just wondering WTF the Federal Government is doing there, besides stirring up the locals. And what's the point of that.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 21, 2014 - 06:13pm PT
Chaz--you're saying what I'm thinking, perhaps more succinctly, so I'll shut up for now!

Kos, sorry to bore you!--I like shooting the sh#t on ST, I don't mean it as seriously as I sound. And I learn plenty on these threads--if I'm a know-it-all, I doubt I'm the worst offender here, ST's full of 'em.
John M

climber
Apr 21, 2014 - 06:13pm PT
because it was a cluster f*#k and someone finally realized it. It was also a political time bomb and someone chickened out

blahblah.. so you believe the cops should just enforce the law, no matter what crazy outcome might occur?

StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 21, 2014 - 06:17pm PT
I agree it is sad that a bunch of armed thugs can stop people from doing their job. But a bloodbath over cows is just plain stupid.

I think some of these people want to go out in some misguided "blaze of glory". I for one am glad common sense prevailed (so far).

Bundy will lose in the end. Let's hope he does not get anyone killed by his tactics.
John M

climber
Apr 21, 2014 - 06:18pm PT
But a bloodbath over cows is just plain stupid.

exactly..
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 21, 2014 - 06:29pm PT
did you want the Feds to arrest everyone, blah?

that your preference?

personally, I believe the Feds made the right decision to back off and thus defuse it

but let's get back to the REAL issue: and that is Bundy is not above the law in refusing to pay his grazing fees for 20 years

why should he think he is special and all the other ranchers but him have to pay?

he had his hearings, he had opportunity to present his case in court, he lost

I don't get why some people defend him anyway, nobody should get the free ride he did
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 21, 2014 - 06:38pm PT
OK I said I'd shut up (and I would have) but a few comments were addressed to me--

We'll have to monitor this story and see what happens.

Kos's analogy to a bank robbery with hostages is fine and I accept it.

Just as the cops don't (necessarily) go storming into the bank with hostages, neither do the cops say "looks like you got away with your brilliant hostage-taking plan, good luck with the money and have a nice life, we're going home now."

If the people who pointed guns at LEO's (without lawful justification) are subsequently arrested and convicted, I'll be happy to admit that the feds here may have done the right thing by deescalating the situation, but then arresting the criminals when practicable.

But if nothing happens regarding catching/charging these alleged criminals, will you be prepared to admit that the narrative (bad right-wing-militiamen-domestic terrorists were pointing guns at LEO's for no reason) is a little fishy?
John M

climber
Apr 21, 2014 - 06:46pm PT
But if nothing happens regarding catching/charging these alleged criminals, will you be prepared to admit that the narrative (bad right-wing-militiamen-domestic terrorists were pointing guns at LEO's for no reason) is a little fishy?

nope.. because yours is not the only explanation. With a political bomb like this situation is, anything could happen, and it doesn't mean that the blm did anything wrong.

I do believe that they had a poor plan. I do believe that from looking at some of the video that some of those officers were poorly trained. The woman being tackled is an example.

but that doesn't mean that they were wrong to try and take the cows. They just went about it in a poor manner.

Its like giving the feds completed blame for what happened at waco. Those people were nuts. They sat in a burning building, which anyone with any sense would realize would kill them, rather then risk surrendering to the FBI. that is my definition of nuts.

Its like Ron here saying over and over. They had plans to shoot people. They had plans to shoot people if anyone tried to take back the cows. Well.. duh.. thats there job isn't it? But he uses it to try and show how unreasonable that the blm is.

when faced with that kind of nutty thinking, then what would you do? Would you have forced the situation and possibly gotten a bunch of people killed?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 21, 2014 - 07:05pm PT
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 21, 2014 - 07:22pm PT

when faced with that kind of nutty thinking, then what would you do? Would you have forced the situation and possibly gotten a bunch of people killed?

John, it it's true that there are a bunch of right-wing nutjobs who travel across the country, heavily armed, to use force to prevent federal agents from doing their jobs and who illegally point weapons at those agents, I do think it's important that those people are brought into the criminal justice system, rather than being allowed to "get away with it."

If that's not being done, there's a problem. Could be that the nutjobs didn't actually commit the crimes you think they did.
Could be the feds committed their own crimes, and would like to see this whole thing hushed up.
I haven't heard anything else that makes sense.

And since Waco was mentioned, yes, that's an interesting point: how does that suggest feds weigh the desirability of arresting people accused of crimes on the one hand, even when those people are cornered and have no hope of escape, and the lives of innocent children on the other?
John M

climber
Apr 21, 2014 - 07:38pm PT
Blah.. I just don't believe that it is a black and white as you paint it.

this has become a political hot potato, so a deal will likely be made. It might even just be dropped because it has gotten too hot. The political scene in Nevada is kind of touchy. I doubt that it will just be dropped, but when dealing with the feds, things can get dragged out for a long time. Some call that a win. I don't know if it really would be.

I believe that the feds were within the law. But just because something is lawful, i.e. taking that mans grazing rights away, doesn't mean that it was the right thing to do. So perhaps someone will rethink this and decide that though the man was wrong to not pay his grazing fees, if he will pay some of them, then they won't take his grazing rights away. That could be called a win win in the news papers, whether it is or not would be up to you, but the spin doctors could certainly paint it that way.

So legally the feds could be right, but morally they could be wrong, or even just a gray area.

And legally the people that pointed the guns, and kicked the dog could be wrong, but morally they were right, or working a gray area.

And that would be why they could get away with it. Because enough people have stood up and thus created a political hot potato..

Does that make sense?
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 21, 2014 - 08:43pm PT
Re Norton’s comment:
wouldn't you agree that the Feds in charge simply made the mature and correct decision to not start arresting lots of people then and there, surely you agree with this?

I think the Feds realized that Bundy's supporters were there to show their support, and not really to provoke a shoot out with the Feds (because they knew they would end up dead)

lots of times laws are not literally enforced, because of the larger consequences.

I appreciate most of you don’t spend time around the militia-type folks that showed up to defend Bundy. My career as a sales-rep for outdoor gear has entailed working with a number of those folks, who of course also need quality outdoor gear for survival.

The militia-members are very serious people who do not like, or support any government, except at the most local levels. They really do believe almost all the dark stories about government taking away individual liberties: Black UN helicopters, One World government, confiscation of private property, implanted tracking chips, making religion illegal--------and any other conspiracy theory you might want to throw them, so long as it is anti-government.

I suppose they were a little more active when Clinton and Obama were presidents, but they certainly did not support either of the Bush Presidents.

I think many of the younger militia-folks have been looking for a crusade, which of course so many young men have looked for during human history.

They are sincere in their hatred & distrust of the U.S. government and I believe many, if not all, are prepared to fight and die.

Norton and all, let me repeat myself strongly:

They are sincere in their hatred & distrust of the U.S. government and I believe many, if not all, are prepared to fight and die.

Please don’t underestimate these militia-people.

In their eyes, they just won a standoff, but they are ready for a battle, and then a war.

I think the BLM folks were very wise to back-off and release all the cattle. I suspect many of the involved militia-folks will find themselves in jail during the next few years and I do hope we all are spared any shootouts.

As Locker so correctly stated about these photos of a militia member pointing his assault rifle at the protesters and the BLM people;

for the record, he's pointing that rifle at AMERICANS.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 21, 2014 - 08:45pm PT
Why didn't the BLM use the cattle as bovine shields?
They afraid PETA would show up and really cause a riot?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 21, 2014 - 08:50pm PT
So why would the Feds want to kick that hornets nest?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 21, 2014 - 08:52pm PT
Chaz
So, why no arrests or tickets, if the Feds are there on a law enforcement mission?

Here is a man who knows his law enforcement.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Apr 21, 2014 - 08:55pm PT
So why would the Feds want to kick that hornets nest?

Exactly. Who cares about those scrawny cows who live in the middle of no-where. Why put on a show for Fox when there's no return?
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 21, 2014 - 09:19pm PT
WHO may i ask is ASKING for a civil war?? No one i know, not even members of my brigade

John M

climber
Apr 21, 2014 - 09:20pm PT
Exactly. Who cares about those scrawny cows who live in the middle of no-where. Why put on a show for Fox when there's no return?

I guess we could also say why care about things like desert tortoises.

Or we could just say we don't care about any federal land and just let anyone do whatever they want. Maybe no one should pay grazing fees and anyone can graze cattle. Then we could go back to the way it was.

Major range wars between cattlemen.

Or overgrazing, which left the land fallow and no one could graze cattle.

whoever can hold what land with how many guns wins..

crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 21, 2014 - 09:31pm PT
Agree, Fritz. The militia members are dangerous, capable of murder in the name of some insane beliefs.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 21, 2014 - 09:37pm PT
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 21, 2014 - 09:56pm PT
They have spell check on el cap..?
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 21, 2014 - 09:58pm PT
**The world through militia eyes

Domestic terrorists? Heroes? Who are the armed men who invaded Nevada?**
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2014/apr/20/world-through-militia-eyes/

By Ed Komenda (contact)

Sunday, April 20, 2014 | 2:01 a.m.


BLM-Bundy Standoff: April 12, 2014



Future Uncertain in Bundy-BLM Dispute


Civen Bundy Supporters




THE WACO SIEGE

The Branch Davidians, a sect of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, were led by David Koresh and lived on a ranch in Elk, Texas, near Waco. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms suspected the group of weapons violations, obtained a warrant and raided the ranch. A gunfight resulted in 10 deaths and led to the FBI’s involvement, which set off a 51-day standoff culminating in a fire that killed 76 men, women and children, including Koresh. After this incident, militias started springing up in defiance of what they viewed as government overreach.







Four ways the government made it worse

The government had a clear-cut case. Cliven Bundy had been violating federal law for more than 20 years, as determined by judges in federal District Court and the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. Even Bundy’s fellow ranchers in the Nevada Cattlemen’s Association opted not to come to Bundy’s side in his dispute with the feds, saying “the matter is between Mr. Bundy and the federal courts.” But a series of government gaffes branded the BLM as overly aggressive and secretive, enraged protesters and turned Bundy into a more sympathetic figure.

• Too much firepower: The BLM needed trucks and trailers to remove cattle. But did it need the Tasers, guns and dogs? “They came across initially with a heavy-handed approach,” said Bob Abbey, former BLM director from 2009 to 2012. “When you start adding weapons, it has the potential to escalate the situation and get out of control.” A pair of videos of confrontations between Bundy family members and government authorities went viral and galvanized the protesters: One showed one of Bundy’s sons being shot with a stun gun, the other showed Bundy’s sister being knocked to the ground.

• First Amendment corrals: In establishing “First Amendment Areas” — a term that seemed to contradict itself — the BLM restricted protests to specific areas and offended protesters.

• Flames fanned: Gov. Brian Sandoval, a former judge known for caution, issued an unusually terse statement critical of the BLM. He said the move to create First Amendment Areas “tramples upon Nevadans’ fundamental rights under the U.S. Constitution.” Sandoval’s statement quickly made national headlines.

• No comment: Bundy and his supporters launched a PR campaign of news conferences, social media outreach and cable news interviews against backdrops of red, white and blue bunting. But the BLM ran tightly controlled teleconferences with reporters and refused all interview requests after the roundup, making it appear they were acting covertly.



Groups at the scene

• Oath Keepers: An association of current and former military personnel, police officers and first responders who pledge to “defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic,” but list 10 specific orders they will not obey, such as “any order to force American citizens into any form of detention camps under any pretext.”

• Operation Mutual Aid: A coalition of militia members from several states.

• Three Percenter Club: A sovereign-rights group whose name derives from an often-quoted statistic — that 3 percent of the American people fought for liberty at any given time during the American war for independence.

• The 9-12 Project of New Hampshire: A group dedicated to “taking back control of our country.” The project’s principles include: “I work hard for what I have and I will share it with who I want to. Government cannot force me to be charitable.”

BUNKERVILLE — A GMC pickup motors across a bridge over the Virgin River, kicking up a cloud of desert.

The door swings open. This is my ticket inside the militia that’s become rancher Cliven Bundy’s fighting brigade.

Brandon Rapolla, a 39-year-old concrete mixer from Oregon, steers the truck toward the militia camp that’s assembled to support Bundy’s battle with the Bureau of Land Management.

There’s an assault rifle propped between Rapolla’s knees. A .338 Magnum rifle, designed to take down big game at a distance the length of three football fields or more, rests within arm’s reach on the back seat under a ghillie suit that’s used by snipers to blend with the brush. Next to my left leg, on the console, there’s a 7-inch Marine-issued knife.

Rapolla is prepared for a war with his government. His guns, he says, aren’t just a show of force. Not knowing what to expect when he rolled into town, he says he was ready to die — and, if he must, shoot a federal agent.

“Our pistols are shooting through my f window if there’s a roadblock, then we’re f getting out,” he said. “We’re gonna go to wherever the guns are blazing. We’re not gonna walk to a f** bloody (battlefield).”

In a brief rant from his truck bed, Rapolla used the F-bomb seven times to describe his anxiety and adrenaline he felt driving into Bunkerville.

As they arrived in Nevada, Rapolla and fellow militia members said they were convinced the BLM was bent on wiping out Bundy and his family. Not just rounding up cattle that have been illegally grazing public land for more than two decades, prompting court rulings that led federal authorities to attempt to seize the cattle in the first place. Not just crippling their business by trucking those cows somewhere else and possibly selling them.

No. In their view, the government’s goal was to exterminate the Bundys. As several militia members put it, they came to the Bundy ranch to prevent another Waco — the 1993 standoff between federal agents and David Koresh that left 76 men, women and children dead. That incident helped spawn the modern militia, which is not an official force but a collection of armed citizens who believe the government is out to destroy the nation and enslave the American people.

So they came to the desert to protect Bundy. They brought heavy weaponry — including a .50-caliber rifle that fires the same bullets that World War II fighter planes used to down enemy aircraft. They brought night-vision goggles. They brought their beliefs — some would call them delusions — that they are the last true patriots, fighting an oppressive government.

These are the extremists in what they say is a campaign to preserve American freedom and fight the federal bullies. Bundy’s fight provided the airtime for their message.

“They don’t believe in the power of a democratically elected government,” said David Bennett, a history professor at Syracuse University who studies political extremism in America. “That’s clearly an extreme position. It’s confronting all government in the name of some view of individual rights that aren’t recognized in law or society other than these individuals.”

And they’re prepared to shoot those they perceive as their enemies if they feel it’s necessary.

ONE MILITIAMAN’S TALE

We turn down the first road after the riverside bridge and up pops the militia camp in the distance. Two flags whip in the wind.

The American stars and stripes flap on one pole. The other flag warns, “Don’t Tread on Me.” Below the symbols is a blue tent jokingly dubbed the “USO” — a cheeky reference to the famed luxury camps built to entertain military troops during combat. The closer we inch toward the tent, the more clearly I see the cache of weapons surrounding it.

The centerpiece? The .50-caliber long-range rifle.

Welcome to the camp of Jerry DeLemus, who drove 41 hours from his home in New Hampshire with his friend and son to defend Bunkerville.

The 59-year-old Marine Corps veteran does not claim ties to a specific militia, but he’s the leader in these parts, in charge of the unorganized militiamen who have trickled in from as far as North Dakota, Oregon and Pennsylvania to support Bundy.

He shares a camp with a cast of characters that could’ve been ripped from a gritty Western novel.

There’s Dale Potter, a militia organizer with the North Dakota Defense Force. A wiry man sporting camo fatigues with a Midwestern drawl and ponytail, he quit his job as a commercial truck driver to descend on the Bundy ranch. The 39-year-old self-proclaimed patriot said he plans to stay in Bunkerville as long as it takes for the BLM to give up for good.

“We’re all here for the long haul, if the BLM wants to drag this out six months, 12 months, two years,” he said. "If they want to end it tomorrow, we’re here until the population feels safe enough for us to leave.”

Then there’s Alex Bieniecki, a 32-year-old New Hampshire native and member of the Oath Keepers, who left his girlfriend and daughter behind for Bunkerville.

He claims he’s not anti-government, pointing to his tattoo-covered arms and neck. Across his throat, in old script, reads the first few words of United States Constitution:

“WE THE PEOPLE.”

“I know what happened at Waco. I know what happened at Ruby Ridge. I know what happened at all the other false flag murder events,” Bieniecki said. “I know that if we weren’t here, they’d probably already be dead.”

The threat of another Waco propelled most of the militiamen to Southern Nevada.

DeLemus learned about Cliven Bundy on the Internet, reading the Drudge Report. He then watched the YouTube videos showing BLM agents using a stun gun to subdue the rancher’s son and knock his sister to the ground.

The sights fired him up, and made him feel he had to race to the desert.

“You feel an obligation as an American,” DeLemus said, standing near his tent, wearing a water-filled hydration pack, full Army fatigues and loaded sidearm. “You’ve got an American family who is rightfully on property their family paid the grazing rights on over a hundred and some odd years ago and our government comes in and decides they want to change the rules on that, break the law, really, by changing those rules after a contract’s been signed with their great-great-grandfather — I believe it was — and then run them out? And then use force on their family? And then put the full weight of the American government on them? Shame on them.”

Moved by the story, he gave Bundy a call. The rancher answered, and DeLemus asked how he could help.

“ ‘Well, Jerry, really what I need is bodies,’ ” Bundy said, according to DeLemus. “ ‘I need people to come and support us.’”

Then DeLemus made a promise: “I’ll be there.”

He wasn’t the only one. On a personal family blog set up to document Bundy’s battle, the rancher put out a request in an April 6 post:

YOU HAVE BEEN ASKING WHAT YOU CAN DO! AND NOW ITS TIME!!!!!!

“They have my cattle and now (they) have one of my boys,” the post reads. “Range war begins tomorrow at Bundy ranch at 9:30 a.m. Bring your signs and horses, and plan to stay as long as you can.”

So DeLemus loaded his truck with guns and ammo — much of which he would not describe in detail — and called his best friend, who asked, “When are we leaving?”

By 5:30 a.m. the next day — a Thursday — DeLemus was picking up his friend and son to race across the country to meet at Bundy’s rustic retreat. Coffee and 5-Hour Energy drinks soon stopped working, and the veteran relied on adrenaline and dispatches from his son in the backseat to get him through the drive. En route, they stopped on a patch of Utah desert to test their gun sights before rolling to Bundy’s ranch.

Unwilling to deal with the hassle of authorities inspecting their truck for illegal weapons — and De-Lemus promises all his weapons are legal — the group timed the trip to make it to the ranch long before dawn.

He visited the Bundys’ house bearing a gift: a bottle of maple syrup from back home. Bundy’s wife, Carol, invited the visitor to breakfast and made pancakes so she could use the syrup right away.

“I got a little taste of home,” DeLemus said. “She gave me some pomegranate jelly she made, and a hug.”

BUNDY’S ENTOURAGE

It’s a minute past 1 p.m., and the small group of supporters is waiting for Bundy.

Stacked with what seemed like endless requests for interviews with national news networks, Cliven Bundy eventually decided he would speak to local media just once a day.

A month ago, Bundy was simply the 68-year-old Mormon rancher with 14 kids who thumbs his nose at the government. He was the lawbreaking cattleman who has refused to pay the government a dime in fees — totaling $1 million — for the past two decades because his ancestors settled the land in the 1870s.

The showdown in Bunkerville has turned Bundy into a modern-day folk hero of the American West, an underdog cowboy with a fighting chance against the big guy. He’s shared his story with millions of TV viewers, making appearances on morning talk shows, with hosts like Sean Hannity of Fox News.

He’s become a celebrity to some, complete with an entourage of tattooed militiamen.

That much is clear when a truck pulls up. Bundy rides in the back like a dignitary. When he steps out, he’s surrounded by a cadre of militiamen that look like secret servicemen.

The entourage wears earpieces attached to radios tucked in back pockets. One bodyguard has tattoos of empty bullet casings covering his left arm. Another bodyguard would make an NFL lineman look small. The most official-looking guard wears Army fatigues and has a sidearm pistol strapped to his hip. He’s a white man, like virtually all of the militia members on Bundy’s property.

Bundy’s son Ammon — the son shot by the federal agents with a stun gun — wore an eye-catching shirt designed by an unknown supporter who sent the family a box of them. Across the back it read:

BUNDY RANCH FREEDOM FIGHTERS

THE BATTLE OF BUNKERVILLE

Between the two phrases, the designer stamped a steer head brand using the letters V and O, which stands for “Victory Over Oppression.”

During the short news conference, I asked Bundy how long he would need the support of the militia. That’s when Ammon stepped in and defined militia as “a volunteer army of citizens.”

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, in a public speech two days later, called the armed group something different. He defined them as “domestic terrorists,” which would put them in the same category as the brothers who detonated the Boston Marathon bombs and engaged in gun battles with police almost exactly a year before the standoff at the ranch. The militiamen’s political viewpoints are far different. Their willingness to resort to violence for a cause is the same.

Whatever the group at Bundy’s ranch may be called, Bundy told supporters they would be there as long as it takes until this fight is over.

What is their ultimate goal?

“State sovereignty,” said John O’Neil, who traveled from Kalispell, Mont. “Limited government. It’s not just the Bundys. We’re all being oppressed.”

THE STANDOFF

O’Neil won’t soon forget the showdown in Bunkerville.

He not only taped most of it on his video camera, but it’s a memory indelibly branded in his mind. He’s moved to tears describing the defining standoff that ended in a temporary victory for the Bundy family and their supporters.

After hearing about the Bundys’ battle with the BLM on the news, the 74-year-old self-proclaimed patriot made the 16-hour drive to the desert from Kalispell. He had no idea what to expect.

By the afternoon of Saturday, April 12, he says, he wasn’t sure he’d survive past dinnertime.

Around 1 p.m., orders filtered down to the some 1,000 supporters and militiamen who had gathered over the past week to support Bundy: “Go get the cattle,” O’Neil remembers hearing.

So that’s what they did. Gathered at a protest camp on the west side of the Virgin River, the large group — many of them armed with guns, many of them women and children — traveled northeast toward the Toquop Wash. An Arizona sheriff commented that the supporters strategically placed the women and children at the front of the line to make it difficult for armed agents to open fire.

There, just north of Interstate 15, the BLM had set up their compound. There was a corral fence to keep the rounded-up cattle.

“We didn’t know exactly where we going,” O’Neil said. “There were hundreds of cars lined up along the side of the road.”

O’Neil called his wife and said his goodbyes.

When the group got to the two interstate bridges, militiamen took to high ground on the southbound bridge, pointing their guns into the wash, just in case a firefight broke out. Below the other bridge, BLM agents in full tactical gear had rifles pointed at as many as 1,000 supporters standing in protest, according to eyewitness accounts.

O’Neil remembers the supporters — including himself — kneeling in prayer. Then the group inched forward, toward BLM personnel and Bundy’s seized cattle.

Later, several of those at the scene would say the situation was so tense that any loud noise — a car backfiring, say — might have touched off a bloodbath. There’s no question among those who saw it: The militia members at the scene would have used their guns on the government agents if a fight had broken out.

The supporters marched toward the armed agents, until the agents made another announcement: The cattle round-up had been cancelled.

The agency has issued one statement about the standoff:

“This afternoon, demonstrators gathered at the area where personnel and cattle were located. Due to escalating tensions, the cattle have been released from the enclosures in order to avoid violence and help restore order.”

An hour and a half later, the BLM was packed up and gone.

That’s when an order came down from the Bundys: Be silent and back up — because cattle spook. So the supporters backed up into the dirt and gathered on both bridges.

Then Bundy’s sister walked up to the corral, O’Neil said, and opened it.

The first cow came through. Then another. Then a stream of them, large and small.

Bundy won the battle, but the war is far from over.

SOMETHING WITH A BADGE THIS WAY COMES

It’s just before 4 p.m. the Tuesday after the standoff, and Frank Dysthe catches something in his rifle’s sights.

Even after the BLM’s submission, the militiamen are weary, ready for anything and harboring a skeptical relief.

He’s tracking the unsuspecting target across the Virgin River: a white car rolling down the road.

“Got a white vehicle across the river,” he says, catching the attention of a militiaman who pulls a pair of binoculars to his eyes.

A few seconds of study pass, and the militiaman offers his take.

“That’s a white Charger with tinted windows and custom mag wheels,” said the man, who would not share his name. “That ain’t no cop.”

Then a report floats into camp from the south: The cops are heading this way.

“About 15 squad cars,” DeLemus says. “It’ll take them about 15 minutes to get here.”

The camp comes alive. Militiamen hop on their radios, checking positions, the specter of the enemy spooking them into action. DeLemus remains the voice of reason, reminding the men there have been many false alarms over the past few days. But he hops in his truck anyway to alert the Bundy family of what might be coming.

Down a winding dirt road behind the militia camp, about half a mile off the main drag, guards armed with shotguns and rifles stand watch in front of a green and yellow sign reading: BUNDY MELONS.

There’s a set of chairs in front of the sign, a makeshift table crowded with cigarette packs, water bottles — and pistols.

Just after 4:30 p.m. a Metro Police SUV pulls up. DeLemus arrives next, talking to the officer through open windows.

I can’t make out what they’re saying, so I wait for the official word from DeLemus.

After about 15 minutes and a talk with Bundy’s black-haired bodyguard, the officer leaves and Jerry drives up. It was a false alarm. A good friend of Bundy’s, the officer has lived in the area for years and wanted to let him know one of his steers got loose in the road.

I shake hands with DeLemus and thank him for the hospitality.

Two militiamen decked out in camouflage vests and helmets walk out of Bundy’s ranch with their long-range rifles in hand. They head to higher ground, scaling the side of a mountain.

From their perch, their mission is to keep a lookout for their government through the sights of their rifles.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 21, 2014 - 10:04pm PT

They head to higher ground, scaling the side of a mountain.

Hey is this now a climbing thread?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 21, 2014 - 10:12pm PT
This stand-off seems so bizzarre and stinks of mis-directed anger...Shouldn't the militia be targeting the Koch Bros who are subverting the political process with cash...?
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 21, 2014 - 10:18pm PT
Well, speaking of history.

Beginning with the 1921 Packers and Stockyards Act and 1922 Capper-Volstead Act, which regulated livestock and protected farmer cooperatives against anti-trust suits, United States agricultural policy began to become more and more comprehensive. In reaction to falling grain prices and the widespread economic turmoil of the Dust Bowl and Great Depression, three bills led the United States into permanent price subsidies for farmers: the 1922 Grain Futures Act, the 1929 Agricultural Marketing Act, and finally the 1933 Agricultural Adjustment Act- the first comprehensive food policy legislation.

Out of these bills grew a system of government-controlled agricultural commodity prices and government supply control (farmers being paid to leave land unused). Supply control would continue to be used to decrease overproduction, leading to over 50,000,000 acres (200,000 km2) to be set aside during times of low commodity prices (1955–1973, 1984–1995).

Isn't it obvious what needs to happen here. The 2014 Guns & Ammo Subsidy program, right?

The government needs to just start paying those makers of guns, ammunition (including the dread nuclear bullets which we've come to know and love), camo gear, "don't tread on me" flags etc. not to produce.

Should purveyors only be similarly compensated? Let me ask Ron and get back to you.

That'sallfolks.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 21, 2014 - 10:39pm PT
Ron...I passed Reid on the highway one morning right after hearing an interview of him on NPR...I like the guy...Why can't the militias go after the cocaine brothers right now...? rj
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 21, 2014 - 10:47pm PT
I'm just wondering WTF the Federal Government is doing there

They are trying to save the lives of some dumb ass redneck fukwads who don't know the Constitution from the hole in their ass.

RJ after we fire Reid

What's wrong, had something better to do for the last 30 years? Takin dem thar cows was the last straw!
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 21, 2014 - 10:56pm PT

the midnight rambler doing his best awakening giant imitation

Free Bundy (all of 'em)

White power to most of the people


[Click to View YouTube Video]
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 21, 2014 - 11:29pm PT
Ron...I think you should hire Reid to help you stuff animals...You could connect on christian mingle.com...rj
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 21, 2014 - 11:52pm PT
They are neo-Christians

ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 21, 2014 - 11:53pm PT
There are some crazy ass anti-government motherf*#kers out there. We used to run across them when I worked for the forest service. Full blown armed compounds, demanding sucession, etc. I once fought a fire (on federal land) where the BLM had to send out officers to guard us from some nutcase militia group! These are not peaceful people with a quirky view of the constitution. They are armed and delusional.

Something about the desert brings it out I guess.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 21, 2014 - 11:56pm PT
Sh#t is getting real:

https://www.facebook.com/events/688187351242203/

Come celebrate TOTAL FREEDOM at BUNDYFEST, just across the street from the Cliven Bundy Ranch, in Bunkerville, Nevada! 240 bands, 24 hours a day, for a SOLID ROCKIN' MONTH!!!!

*NO PERMITS REQUIRED
*CAMP ABSOLUTELY ANYWHERE
*FULL NUDITY NOT A PROBLEM
*GAY-FRIENDLY ATMOSPHERE
*PENIS ERECTION CONTEST: Erect the largest penis in the open desert, win valuable prize! (tbd)

BACKGROUND: For years, we paid permitting fees to hold Burning Man on the beautiful Playa in Northern Nevada. But now, Cliven Bundy has shown us a NEW WAY! ABSOLUTE FREEDOM! Bundy has declared the entire area surrounding Bundy Ranch as a TOTALLY RULES-FREE ZONE! ANYTHING GOES! WOO-HOO!!!
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Apr 22, 2014 - 12:03am PT
can someone fill me in with a link to wtf happened?

Just got out of the creek. love being detached from the matrix.


50K headed over to the Bundy Free for all zone after Burning Man. That will go over well :)
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 22, 2014 - 12:22am PT
Some idiot decided the federal government doesn't have the right to own land in HIS state. After decades of not paying grazing fees and several court orders, the BLM came to remove his illegal cattle. So he and his family threatened federal officers and rounded up a bunch of anarchists with guns to take on the The Man. Ron and his ilk all got hardons and are busy polishing their guns.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Apr 22, 2014 - 12:29am PT
wes... thanks. that was the story last week. some of the posts made it sound like the epitome of the welfare queens actually started shooting their shiny guns.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 22, 2014 - 12:39am PT
That article made me sick to my stomach

Who brings a 50 cal to a protest?

World's biggest pus sy that's who

Fu ck those people and if you support them then FU CK YOU TOO
WBraun

climber
Apr 22, 2014 - 12:40am PT
All these nutcases will all be back tomorrow yammering hundreds of more posts in this thread
of the same stupid sh!t they've been saying for days.

They're crazier then the ones they're calling out .....

blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 22, 2014 - 12:58am PT
some of the posts made it sound like the epitome of the welfare queens actually started shooting their shiny guns.

The BLM guys? No, I don't think they shot anyone this time around.
There's a theory that the protesters were going around pointing guns at the feds, but the feds were in a good mood that day so they decided that having guns pointed at them wasn't such a big deal and no one needed to be arrested or anything.
There's another theory that anyone who thinks that's what happened needs his head examined.
Here's an idea: everyone who thinks the the protesters were going around pointing assault rifles at feds, go out and get a gun (assault rifle if possible, but Biden's double-barrel shotgun or whatever you can your hands on will work), walk to an armed federal officer, and point your gun at him. Please report back, if possible.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 22, 2014 - 01:07am PT
^^^^Makes me think of Dylan's song "Idiot wind".
SWH

Trad climber
Apr 22, 2014 - 01:30am PT
http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25302186/an-abbreviated-look-at-rancher-cliven-bundys-family-history

I wonder if this will change anything...
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 22, 2014 - 03:09am PT
So Bundy is a liar and an anarchist.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 22, 2014 - 07:58am PT
Yammer....
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Apr 22, 2014 - 08:03am PT
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
mdavid

Big Wall climber
High Springs, FL
Apr 22, 2014 - 09:30am PT
I'm surprised that more of you aren't upset at BLM bringing out a swat team. The government started escalating this situation and finally someone with sense stepped in to avoid a disaster.

Why not use the courts to remedy this? If he refuses court orders, no problem, put liens on all his property and possessions, seize all proceeds from selling cows...you know, boring detective work that doesn't involve tanks and swat teams. I guess it's easier to show up with guns than get court orders and do all that paperwork...
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 22, 2014 - 09:52am PT
You haven't paid the slightest attention this has already and repeatedly gone through the legal court process. Bundy lost every time.


I guess it's easier to show up with a militia of armed insurrectionists than comply with the law. And the only ones with sense enough to avoid a disaster were the Feds.

There I fixed your faulty logic for you..


OhCOWpie MOOvement and the Bundystan Brigands unpatriotic domestic terrorists and common thieves.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 22, 2014 - 10:00am PT
mdavid posted
Why not use the courts to remedy this? If he refuses court orders, no problem, put liens on all his property and possessions, seize all proceeds from selling cows...you know, boring detective work that doesn't involve tanks and swat teams. I guess it's easier to show up with guns than get court orders and do all that paperwork...

Haha oh god this is a great post. You are exactly describing the situation that is CURRENTLY HAPPENING. The dude ignored numerous court orders and the BLM showed up to confiscate his trespassing cows and Ron's sage grouse massacring friends showed up screaming "this is are country" and waving guns around. The BLM brought in bigger guns to protect themselves and now you're wondering why they didn't do exactly what they already did.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 22, 2014 - 10:02am PT
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 22, 2014 - 10:24am PT
"We have spied the enemy and he is us".
-pogo




Kos there's in your cartoon.
Are you trying to upset some people's sensitivities? :-)
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 22, 2014 - 10:33am PT
"Same as it ever was"

-Talking Headz
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 22, 2014 - 10:36am PT
"I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain"

-Bene Gesserit
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 22, 2014 - 11:08am PT
Haha oh god this is a great post. You are exactly describing the situation that is CURRENTLY HAPPENING. The dude ignored numerous court orders and the BLM showed up to confiscate his trespassing cows and Ron's sage grouse massacring friends showed up screaming "this is are country" and waving guns around. The BLM brought in bigger guns to protect themselves and now you're wondering why they didn't do exactly what they already did.

The above raises a very good point.
The government has no power to levy bank accounts, foreclose on real property, place liens on property, or take any other similar action if you owe it money.
And ranchers typically don't need bank accounts--it's a "cash only" business.
The only recourse the government has is to send in SWAT officers to seize personal property by force. It may not be well known, but that is standard operating procedure for the government to collect its debts.

We should also remember that the government never sends its own agents to infiltrate suspected "domestic terrorist" organizations, so we can be absolutely sure that every self-proclaimed "protester" was in fact a genuine nutjob and not a government agent.

We have a perfect government and it never makes mistakes, except sometimes our federal agents just get too darn lenient and give terrorists a pass when the terrorists point guns at the agents. Despite their rigorous training, it is almost impossible to suppress federal agents' deep desire to avoid causing harm, or even to hurt the feelings, of any living being.

So all-in-all, we can only give the government an A+ grade for the way it handled this brouhaha, instead of the A++ it generally merits.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 22, 2014 - 11:19am PT
Ron you are a disgusting deplorable human being. Go wrap yourself with some other nations' flag you are unworthy of calling yourself an American, much less a patriot. You're a gun-crazed brainwashed old coot, go peddle crazy someplace else dipsh*t. Hope you get the beat down you so richly deserve and, deep down, are praying for.

Comparing your cowardly acts to Snowden's?? Fu ck you.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Apr 22, 2014 - 11:20am PT
The Governor, and our Congressman and Senators all are behind the patriots

just as the "Patriots' are all behind their women.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 22, 2014 - 11:26am PT
Ranchers don't have Bank accounts?????

No. When they sell their cattle, it's strictly on a "cash only" basis.
Same for when they buy new trucks and farm implements and stuff like that--that stuff tends to be inexpensive, so they just whip out their wallets and hand over a few greenbacks. Running a ranch with hundreds of cattle is a lot like buying and selling trinkets over Craigslist--you are basically out of the formal financial system.
So even if the government had the power to do things like levy bank accounts, which it absolutely does not, that power would not help in this case.

Glad I could clear that up for you--let me know if you have any other questions on this one.
As a general rule--here's the way to think about it: do you think the government may have done anything wrong whatsoever here, such as not arresting heavily armed nutjobs threatening to kill the federal agents?
If the thought that the government did anything wrong even crosses your mind, don't despair, just think about it a little harder, take in some of the wisdom generated on this thread, and it will all start making sense.


guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 22, 2014 - 11:34am PT
Ron you are a disgusting deplorable human being. Go wrap yourself with some other nations' flag you are unworthy of calling yourself an American, much less a patriot. You're a gun-crazed brainwashed old coot, go peddle crazy someplace else dipsh*t. Hope you get the beat down you so richly deserve and, deep down, are praying for.

Comparing your cowardly acts to Snowden's?? Fu ck you.


Fluffy..... are you having a hard time? a bad day? you need to go bouldering and chill out.

fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 22, 2014 - 11:43am PT
Fluffy..... are you having a hard time? a bad day? you need to go bouldering and chill out.

Pfffft you don't know me

I have less tolerance for this crap than a lot of you, you're clearly able and willing to engage Ron et. al day after day as they do their little song and dance. Not me. These maniacs are crazy dangerous and WRONG and they're gonna hear it from me. Grow a pair.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 22, 2014 - 11:53am PT
The above raises a very good point.
The government has no power to levy bank accounts, foreclose on real property, place liens on property, or take any other similar action if you owe it money...
The only recourse the government has is to send in SWAT officers to seize personal property by force. It may not be well known, but that is standard operating procedure for the government to collect its debts.

And exactly which of your remedies there...levying accounts and similar, physically removes said cattle from the land in question?

Collecting back fees/debt was one part of the equation. Getting the moo-moo land maggots off the land in question was the other part. You are neglecting half the equation.

drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Apr 22, 2014 - 11:57am PT
unless you're waterfowl, mexican, or puffpastry
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 22, 2014 - 12:14pm PT
Pfffft you don't know me

I have less tolerance for this crap than a lot of you, you're clearly able and willing to engage Ron et. al day after day as they do their little song and dance. Not me. These maniacs are crazy dangerous and WRONG and they're gonna hear it from me. Grow a pair.

True, I know nothing about YOU except what I read, your posting a bunch of hate, aimed mostly at Ron.

Nothing, no person, no issue, on the net should get one that worked up.

And I do have a pair.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 22, 2014 - 12:17pm PT





drljefe,, FYI every person ive shot has been,,, WHITE. Just keeping the record straight here..
So how many white guys have you shot Ron?
Or are puff pastry people my friends?

And what's next for the Patri-idiots of Ron's Brigands?


The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
brigand (ˈbrɪɡənd)
n
1. (Professions) a bandit or plunderer, esp a member of a gang operating in mountainous areas


Brigandage refers to the life and practice of brigands: highway robbery and plunder,[1] and a brigand is a person who usually lives in a gang and lives by pillage and robbery.[2]
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Apr 22, 2014 - 12:34pm PT
I just hope the crook and those thugs end up doing time.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 22, 2014 - 12:42pm PT
Dingus, Ron may be as innocuous as melba toast and as weak as water but the contemptuous message he and the Bundy Brigande parrot IS dangerous.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 22, 2014 - 12:45pm PT

Ya see you dirty hippie tree hugging peace-niks what you need is high power weapons and flak jackets then the dirty coppers'll have to back off.
Do they make body armor in tie-dye?

And blocking a public sidewalk like that how dare you everyone knows true patriots block Interstates.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 22, 2014 - 12:53pm PT
Dingus, Ron is a symptom of a pervasive societal disease.
An indicator of greater malaise. His is not an isolated and thus ignorable voice in the wind.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 22, 2014 - 12:56pm PT
The Governor, and our Congressman and Senators all are behind the patriots

I didn't realize "patriot" was now synonymous with "tax evasion."

wade retorted
just as the "Patriots' are all behind their women.

damn that was a good burn!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 22, 2014 - 12:58pm PT
They will be cowering behind their womens n chillun. And innocent bystanders.
Is a teetering serac a danger? Or does it have to fall first?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 22, 2014 - 01:03pm PT
A flat tire, a back fire or a wiseass with a firecracker. Wouldn't take much to set off a powder keg like that. Then people die.
WBraun

climber
Apr 22, 2014 - 01:03pm PT
Ron Anderson is no killer and no coward.

You crazy ass idiots quit your stupid projecting of your own internal insecurities and insanities onto other people all the time.

Take a vacation you internet nutcases .....
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 22, 2014 - 01:05pm PT
And yet you return to quack off all the time. Don't like it don't click on it let alone post to it.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 22, 2014 - 01:11pm PT
Well in that case Happy 4th of July!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 22, 2014 - 01:14pm PT
But those dudes didn't yell "Women and Children First".

And those founding fathers had a real cause and a true grievance.
And if they would have been in Nevadastan that day they would have stood WITH the Government and against the lawless mob.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 22, 2014 - 01:15pm PT
Ron Anderson is no killer

dirtbag

climber
Apr 22, 2014 - 01:16pm PT
I'm comforted by the fact that there are very few of these idiots who are truly willing to pick up a gun and shoot.

And Ron likes eating puff pastries too much to be dangerous.

Edit: and soft, warm boobies.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 22, 2014 - 01:24pm PT
Dirtbag, ssssshhhhh don't talk about boobies (unless they are blue footed). Are you trying to get this thread axed for being offensive?



dirtbag

climber
Apr 22, 2014 - 01:28pm PT
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 22, 2014 - 01:30pm PT
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 22, 2014 - 01:31pm PT
Ron Anderson is no killer and no coward.

You crazy ass idiots quit your stupid projecting of your own internal insecurities and insanities onto other people all the time.

Take a vacation you internet nutcases .....


I've got to agree... LOTS of projection going on here. And there is no reasoning with such folks so afflicted.

But it's fun to try!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 22, 2014 - 01:37pm PT
Mirroring, a conservative tradition.

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/ucrk7y/apocalypse-cow---welfare-rancher
Jon Stewart's take is a crack up.

Frankly I agree with Stewart in that it disgusts me that this LiberTardAryan denies the legitimacy and very existence of the US government but has the audacious gall to parade around with OUR (not his) flag. What a despicable shit!
18,000 good American ranchers abide by the State and Federal laws, pay their grazing fees and play by the rules.
Toy soldiers in flak jackets and hiding behind concrete gun slots with high power rifles aimed at AMERICANS are not brave nor heroic.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 22, 2014 - 02:25pm PT
The first and only time I was proud of myself for killing an animal was maybe age 10

then I fuking grew up
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 22, 2014 - 02:28pm PT
The above raises a very good point.
The government has no power to levy bank accounts, foreclose on real property, place liens on property, or take any other similar action if you owe it money...
The only recourse the government has is to send in SWAT officers to seize personal property by force. It may not be well known, but that is standard operating procedure for the government to collect its debts.


And exactly which of your remedies there...levying accounts and similar, physically removes said cattle from the land in question?

Collecting back fees/debt was one part of the equation. Getting the moo-moo land maggots off the land in question was the other part. You are neglecting half the equation.

True that--the cattle can't read the court orders, so if it's urgent to remove them from the land, and Bundy won't do it himself, I agree the only way to do that is through force.
Still, I'm skeptical that Bundy would have been able to operate his ranch after the government applied its standard debt collection techniques, and that would be the end of his cattle, on government land or anywhere else.

But what fun is it to levy and garnish and foreclose when you've got SWAT teams?
Doesn't rounding up someone else's cattle with helicopters sound way cooler than sending paperwork to a bank or a feedlot operator or whatever?

Anyway, while I appreciate a reasonable discussion on this, seems like most of you just want to bash Ron, so sorry to interrupt that important task.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 22, 2014 - 02:46pm PT
Werner wrote: nto a huge self righteous aszhole .....


Coming from the person who always tells others how stupid they are.

Projection is a funny thing.


I agree with DMT...talk is cheap and that makes people like Ron & his brigade are pretty poor.

Half of these dip shits couldn't fight their way out of wet paper bag.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 22, 2014 - 03:00pm PT
I can't believe the IRS hasn't dragged him through the coals yet!
Yeah we have to wonder about that (not sure that it would actually be the IRS, could be some other branch of the government--to my knowledge, he's just a grazing fee cheat, not a tax cheat. But I'm not sure that changes the collection tools at the government's disposal.)
We do mostly see this through the prism of how we generally see life--some of you guys you see poor, downtrodden (underpaid?) federal workers just trying to serve their country and risking their lives from "domestic terrorists."
I see a somewhat incompetent, over-funded, generally overpaid, inefficient federal government, which now has a huge domestic paramilitary "police" force to complement the insanely large regular military. Gotta break those toys out now and then.

How about some more stories from Kos about how much money he (or his company) makes and how little work they do on their federal contracts?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 22, 2014 - 03:26pm PT
Why not use the courts to remedy this? If he refuses court orders, no problem, put liens on all his property and possessions, seize all proceeds from selling cows...

OMG dude, you could have prevented this whole situation! Sure wish you would have spoken up earlier. Who would have thought... take him to court, get court orders to seize the cattle, then just go and seize them. Fuking brilliant!!!
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Apr 22, 2014 - 03:26pm PT
After all, there's a lot of steak.

Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Apr 22, 2014 - 03:28pm PT
Bundy Creek Farm is located in New York. Unaffiliated with our pal out west.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 22, 2014 - 03:32pm PT
SO I've been staying away from this slugfest for a week. There's a good chance I've missed a good debunking of Cliven Bundy

But in case it didn't get posted here, the Las Vegas TV news "I Team" has dug around in the historical records.
Blundy is either stoopider or more deceitful than at first appeared (even I bought some of his family story)

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25301551/bundys-ancestral-rights-come-under-scrutiny

Bundy explained his "ancestral rights" to the I-Team.

"I've lived my lifetime here. My forefathers have been up and down the Virgin Valley here ever since 1877. All these rights that I claim, have been created through pre-emptive rights and beneficial use of the forage and the water and the access and range improvements," Bundy said.
Hard to decipher what Bundy claims from that gobbledygook. The "Virgin Valley" goes well up into Utah. One branch goes through Toquerville.

Clark County property records show Cliven Bundy's parents moved from Bundyville, Arizona and bought the 160 acre ranch in 1948 from Raoul and Ruth Leavitt.

Water rights were transferred too, but only to the ranch, not the federally managed land surrounding it. Court records show Bundy family cattle didn't start grazing on that land until 1954.

The Bureau of Land Management was created 1946, the same year Cliven was born.
EDIT:
OOPS....Wrong! No significant part of the Virgin River is in Arizona.
Virgin River Gorge
blah blah
Dyamn, you're right. I sit corrected. The Virgin River cuts across the extreme upper left of AZ.
End EDIT

Early census records show Cliven's maternal grandmother, Christena Jensen, was born in Nevada in 1901. One genealogical researcher says records indicate Jensen helped settle Bunkerville some years later.

Wasn't Bundy claiming his property rights go back to his family in 1877?
Bundy repeated a similar claim Thursday when he told TheBlaze website: “My family has preemptive, adjudicated livestock water rights filed with the state of Nevada. They were established in 1877 when the first pioneers entered the valley. Among those first pioneers were my grandparents from my mother’s side. My father either bought or inherited his Nevada state livestock water rights and I, in turn, have done the same.”

There's a lot more here.
http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25302186/an-abbreviated-look-at-rancher-cliven-bundys-family-history

None of which of course has any bearing on his so-called "right" to graze for free on BLM land.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Apr 22, 2014 - 03:33pm PT
Jon Stewart opened his show with this subject last night.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Apr 22, 2014 - 03:39pm PT
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Apr 22, 2014 - 03:40pm PT



Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 22, 2014 - 03:42pm PT
Bundy is a POS...period. The same a-holes defending him are the same ones who whine about the government giving lunches to kids in schools.

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Apr 22, 2014 - 03:49pm PT



Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Apr 22, 2014 - 03:54pm PT
What!!!! Bundy is a liar? Say it isn't so

No worries though, one of the resident right wingers can yell

BENGHAZI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and everything will be fine.

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Apr 22, 2014 - 04:00pm PT

WBraun

climber
Apr 22, 2014 - 04:01pm PT
LOL ......
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Apr 22, 2014 - 04:12pm PT
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Apr 22, 2014 - 04:12pm PT
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 22, 2014 - 04:13pm PT
No significant part of the Virgin River is in Arizona.

Hunh?
Never climbed there, but I've driven though a place called Virgin River Gorge, and heard there are some climbs. Probably too easy for this crew though.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Apr 22, 2014 - 04:14pm PT
Hawkeye, the right wingers fought for King George III, just so you know.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Apr 22, 2014 - 04:18pm PT
corresponding todays right wing with that in 1776 is idiocy...

yes they should arrest bundy....


but the idiots on both sides of this are the real story of this thread.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 22, 2014 - 04:23pm PT
Gary wrote: Hawkeye, the right wingers fought for King George III, just so you know.


No he doesn't know...he just post emotional bullshit like TGT, Chaz and Ron.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 22, 2014 - 04:36pm PT
High Traversse! That was very interesting reading. Bundy has certainly piled lies on top of lies, and his supporters keep sucking up his lies like candy.

Both your links are interesting, but the second sums things up.

An abbreviated look at rancher Cliven Bundy's family history
http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25302186/an-abbreviated-look-at-rancher-cliven-bundys-family-history


I also enjoyed this response to the above article:

I'm an attorney and actually hold a post-doctoral degree in the field of "Law and Govt" and you wouldn't believe the number of Tea Baggers that try and tell me that I have no understanding or knowledge of the Constitution on a regular basis. Most of them clinging to ideas and notions, which when I cite a specific Constitutional provision to rebut them, reduces them to reciting gibberish and unable to cite a single case or provision within the Constitution which supports a single thing they say.

I especially get a kick out of those who think they're so clever by calling people "low information voters" yet who turn around and cite something from the Declaration of Independence as being a Constitutional provision or who completely mangle the English language and spelling conventions confusing such terms as "secede" and "succeed" and who don't have the foggiest notion that the present Constitution is actually the second Constitution to have ruled the United States. (Hell, most of them think the Constitution was drafted in 1776.)

But yep, the lot of them do appear to think of themselves as being Constitutional Scholars. I often think of that great "ONION" headline'article entitled: "Area Man Passionate Defender Of What He Imagines Constitution To Be"
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 22, 2014 - 04:37pm PT
Why weren't the cows and the Bundys and Bundy-ites gassed, like is supposed to happen at these affairs?


philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 22, 2014 - 04:42pm PT
Our new weapons platform.
Look out you LiberTardAryans we Libtard peacenic tree huggers are coming to get you. We are loaded for bear. Potato cannons with high power pot muffins and an atomized LSD crop sprayer. You dumbestic turderists are in for it.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 22, 2014 - 04:44pm PT
actually hold a post-doctoral degree

Where do you hold it and what is it? I hope it isn't called a PPhd.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 22, 2014 - 05:05pm PT
Look at all you smarty pantses with your facts backing up your position! You don't seem to realize... none of that matters... Bundy doesn't recognize the Federal Gubbermint's right to own land.

Checkmate!

Bundy wins because idiots are willing to point guns at govt officials... govt officials who are too busy being tyrannical to wipe their tea bagging idiocy from the face of the earth.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 22, 2014 - 05:59pm PT
Send them all to GitMOO.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 22, 2014 - 06:10pm PT

Basically, he has no legal standing whatsoever. He knew this 70 years ago, and he knows it now.

His cattle are trespassing, another key legal point. The only way he has to worm out of this is to say that the land is his due to adverse possession, but you can't adversely possess federal land.

Base, I have no idea how much property law you know, but I have some doubts. (And I doubt Bundy knew anything 70 years ago--is he even that old?)
Without carefully dissecting your post, I see at least a few odd comments.
"Standing," in the legal sense related to federal courts, doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. Bundy clearly has "standing" in this dispute--if he didn't, he wouldn't have been a litigant, at least for long. Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_(law); for a brief explanation.
Re: adverse possession--as I understand it, Bundy never claimed to have acquired any of the relevant land by adverse possession. So while your point that one can't acquire federal land by adverse possession is correct, it's also irrelevant. He does claim some sort of "grazing rights"--I have no idea if that claim is good (I'd guess it's not), but that's not the same thing as adverse possession. (It may be somewhat related by analogy, perhaps a type of easement or encumbrance or whatever, but it's not the same thing as AP.)

In any event, a failure to record an interest in property (when required) has interesting legal effects, but generally the effect is on subsequent purchasers of the land who take without notice of the claim. For example, if you sell me your house, with a deed, and I don't record it, I may be screwed if you then sell it to someone else who doesn't have notice of that (depending on the laws of the jurisdiction at issue and possibly other factors). But I still own the house, as between you and me. What does this have to do with the Bundy dispute? Jack sh#t as far as I can tell--just pointing out that you didn't "crack the case" as you seem to think.


Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Apr 22, 2014 - 06:31pm PT
He does claim some sort of "grazing rights"--I have no idea if that claim is good (I'd guess it's not), but that's not the same thing as adverse possession.

No one can obtain any interest in land through adverse possession against the federal government. He has no grazing rights.

Base104's take is pretty on the matter is pretty good.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 22, 2014 - 06:58pm PT
The 1st amendment is also being bastardized. Corporations are evidently people, people who can't be sent to jail. The supreme court is so right wing that they have voted down campaign contribution limits.

Base, it's true that corporations can't be sent to jail (for reasons having to do with the way the universe works, not legal doctrine), but corporations can only act through their human agents. Those human agents can go to jail--they do all the time. There's no "Nuremberg defense."
Corporations can also be fined and through various means given something like a "corporate death penalty,"--that's basically what happened to Arthur Andersen after Enron.

I haven't heard too many people say we don't have enough people in jail in this country, but maybe we don't, who knows.

No one can obtain any interest in land through adverse possession against the federal government. He has no grazing rights.

You are likely right in the result, but claiming that someone can't acquire something through adverse possession when they aren't claiming anything through adverse possession isn't really the way legal analysis works.
Perhaps I'm mistaken and some of the ST legal brain trust can correct me, as usual.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 22, 2014 - 07:20pm PT
I declare war on the BLM

[Click to View YouTube Video]
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 22, 2014 - 08:15pm PT
c'mon Ron
It'll take more than 100 disgruntled Democrats to toss Reid out. After all his Big Chinese Money Conspiracy will buy 100 X that many votes.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 22, 2014 - 08:16pm PT
As usual, Ron is Rong.

This thread is about something other than Harry Reid. I'm sure next he is going to tell us how it is all Obama's fault, especially Ruby Ridge.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Apr 22, 2014 - 08:32pm PT
I'm actually almost half tempted to un-grease this thread just to see what kind of stupid sh#t rong is saying. But I think better of myself than that...
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Apr 22, 2014 - 08:38pm PT
You are likely right in the result, but claiming that someone can't acquire something through adverse possession when they aren't claiming anything through adverse possession isn't really the way legal analysis works.

blah, it was you who stated that he claimed "grazing rights". It is not possible to accrue any sort of interest in federal government owned land through any sort of occupation.

Curtis Brown in Evidence and Procedures for Boundary Location, 2nd edition pg. 82, writes: "In general, although there are exceptions, unwritten conveyances (the gaining of rights in land without writings) cannot operate against the federal, state, or local governments. In most states, irrespective of how long a person occupies a road, occupancy gives no rights against the public."
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 22, 2014 - 08:46pm PT
Weeelll now, feloow westernars, that Reid libitartd ain't facin nother re-erecttion till 2016.

Corse, Ron & his folks could empeaaach him iffn daze were able to put there small mines to a progect liken that.

Udder-wize they all will have to keep there grunges strong and there nives sharp till 2016 for that Reid.

That Reid felow: heel be 76 years old by then and ready to retire to a fine life in China.

and member to shoot low, cause there ridin Shetlends.

whatca thinkin? Can I jin a militia now?

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 22, 2014 - 08:46pm PT
Ron need I remind you that Fattrad also made dozens of ridiculous political prognostications.
He, like you, was adament that he was always correct. Sadly for him, and you, always wrong.
Save the desert tortoise start eating crow.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Apr 22, 2014 - 08:46pm PT
We were just in West By god virginia a few days ago. Wonder if anyone is keeping an eye on this guy?
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Apr 22, 2014 - 09:05pm PT
to think that guns will somehow protect and save you from the government if it wishes to impose it's will is the epitome of ignorance. hell... half the reason why we will never lose our right to own arms is because the gov't wants us to have them. cuz hey.... if some white bread ignorant militia opens fire on gov't agents it makes it really simple to wipe out said uprising.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 22, 2014 - 09:10pm PT
If ever I felt a reason to "arm" up it would be to defend my self not from Government overreach but from anti-government rightwing neo-Facists like these anti-American piss ants.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Apr 22, 2014 - 09:10pm PT
philo +1
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 22, 2014 - 09:20pm PT
These right wing radicals are what is dragging America down.

They are regressive thinkers are just bat-ass crazy.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Apr 22, 2014 - 09:22pm PT
sure, try to fight the government which has honed its warfare for the last 13 years on foreign civilians and "armies" without air support or naval reinforcements.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 22, 2014 - 09:27pm PT
blah, it was you who stated that he claimed "grazing rights". It is not possible to accrue any sort of interest in federal government owned land through any sort of occupation.

Curtis Brown in Evidence and Procedures for Boundary Location, 2nd edition pg. 82, writes: "In general, although there are exceptions, unwritten conveyances (the gaining of rights in land without writings) cannot operate against the federal, state, or local governments. In most states, irrespective of how long a person occupies a road, occupancy gives no rights against the public."

Yes, I did claim that Bundy claims some sort of "grazing rights," that's based on my quick reading of news reports, not on anything else. I don't know anything about "grazing rights."
But you are setting up a straw man in claiming that Bundy claims his rights through "any sort of occupation." For all I know, he claims rights pursuant to a contract or some other legal doctrine--I have no idea.
Do you believe that leases are recorded with county clerks? (They're not, in general.) Maybe Bundy claims a lease of sorts, I don't know.

This is silly in that apparently courts have found against Bundy, and I certainly haven't heard any clear articulation that substantiate his "grazing rights." As I said long ago in this thread, he seems like a crackpot.

But I called Base out for incorrectly claiming that he solved the case by noting that Bundy claimed rights through AP, which isn't possible. Base would be right if Bundy was claiming AP, but he isn't claiming AP either using those words or words to the same effect, as far as I know.

Base is wrong, you're wrong to the extent you support Base's reasoning (rather than his conclusion), Bundy is almost certainly wrong based on everything I've seen.
That's pretty much my "final answer" as far as this goes, but I'll leave you with a question to ponder:
We all know that there is in fact something called "grazing rights" or the like that authorize ranchers to graze their cattle on government-owned land.
Do you think those rights are recorded with county clerks (in the same way property deeds and the like are recorded)?
If no, do you admit that Base's contention that the (presumed) lack of any redecoration of Bundy's rights is generally irrelevant?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 22, 2014 - 09:29pm PT
If ever I felt a reason to "arm" up it would be to defend my self not from Government overreach but from anti-government rightwing neo-Facists like these anti-American piss ants.
Bingo.

let me do the math
25 million shotgun shells
370 million people.

YUP
the Gummint Gonna Shoot All Us Sheep.

I live within 1 1/2 miles of two gun ranges. I hear them banging away and know their approximate rate of fire. On a nice weekend their combined shots have got to be in the thousands. AT LEAST 10 or so a minute ( 1 every 6 secs on average) on each range for 300 minutes X 2 ranges. 6000 shells per day.
30 good weekends a year: 360,000 shells. Just in my neck of the woods.

No wonder the Big Money is against any restrictions on guns and ammunition.

Just screams deer hunting doesn’t it?
That's the SILLIEST part of your quoted stuff. Of course DHS isn't interested in deer hunting. They're mostly trying to keep illegal immigrants out. Just what right wing whackos have been bitching for.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 22, 2014 - 09:49pm PT
can't we all just get along?
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 22, 2014 - 09:55pm PT
If ever I felt a reason to "arm" up it would be to defend my self not from Government overreach but from anti-government rightwing neo-Facists like these anti-American piss ants.

That's something these mouth-breathers are failing to factor in: they don't just have to worry about America's standing law enforcement and armed forces...there's also tens of millions of REAL patriotic Americans that are going to bitch slap them if they try anything stupid.

You LOSE.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 22, 2014 - 09:57pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Apr 22, 2014 - 09:59pm PT
the black prez is bringing them out of the woodwork now. uppity black man in that white house. if only those redneck crackers could see he is more redneck than they could ever hope to be. How many of those fukers have taken out a group of "islamists" in a single strike? Not many I bet. Cracker wet dream
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 22, 2014 - 10:02pm PT
These racist anti-intellectual xenophobes are goin full retard!!

Might not make it much longer!!
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Apr 22, 2014 - 10:04pm PT
never go full retard...you'll walk away empty handed
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 22, 2014 - 10:05pm PT
Have any of you wondered why Obama would seize ALL Natl guard battle fitted helos to redistribute and leave them only with transportation helicopters? Nawww probably not...

Probably because he's a no-birth-certificate-havin black socialist Muslim!

HURRRRR
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 22, 2014 - 10:06pm PT
Tell us Ron why did he do that?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Apr 22, 2014 - 10:09pm PT
Ron. he did that because the teabaggers slashed and burned the budget leaving the pentagon scrambleing for equiptment.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 22, 2014 - 10:14pm PT
Agenda 21!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 22, 2014 - 10:14pm PT
Maybe because the move will save 12 billion through fiscal 2017.

It even says that in your own link.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 22, 2014 - 10:16pm PT
Ron wrote: Have any of you wondered why Obama would seize ALL Natl guard battle fitted helos to redistribute and leave them only with transportation helicopters? Nawww probably not...


I think he is going to give them to all the Black Panthers and then to all the Muslim groups in the US.


Ron is a full on clown.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 22, 2014 - 10:20pm PT
Apache gun ships, we don't need no steeeenkin' Apache gun ships.





Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 22, 2014 - 10:22pm PT
blahblah: I read your last post 3 times.

Yes, I did claim that Bundy claims some sort of "grazing rights," that's based on my quick reading of news reports, not on anything else. I don't know anything about "grazing rights."
But you are setting up a straw man in claiming that Bundy claims his rights through "any sort of occupation." For all I know, he claims rights pursuant to a contract or some other legal doctrine--I have no idea.
Do you believe that leases are recorded with county clerks? (They're not, in general.) Maybe Bundy claims a lease of sorts, I don't know.

This is silly in that apparently courts have found against Bundy, and I certainly haven't heard any clear articulation that substantiate his "grazing rights." As I said long ago in this thread, he seems like a crackpot.

But I called Base out for incorrectly claiming that he solved the case by noting that Bundy claimed rights through AP, which isn't possible. Base would be right if Bundy was claiming AP, but he isn't claiming AP either using those words or words to the same effect, as far as I know.

Base is wrong, you're wrong to the extent you support Base's reasoning (rather than his conclusion), Bundy is almost certainly wrong based on everything I've seen.
That's pretty much my "final answer" as far as this goes, but I'll leave you with a question to ponder:
We all know that there is in fact something called "grazing rights" or the like that authorize ranchers to graze their cattle on government-owned land.
Do you think those rights are recorded with county clerks (in the same way property deeds and the like are recorded)?
If no, do you admit that Base's contention that the (presumed) lack of any redecoration of Bundy's rights is generally irrelevant?

It appears you are what we locals term:

One slick-fingered & silver-tongued SOB.

Damn! You are so-gud------ at what you do!

R ewe jest playin with all of us?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 22, 2014 - 10:24pm PT
Me,me,me,me Mr. Kotter....he is going to send them to all of his cousins in Africa.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 22, 2014 - 10:24pm PT
Remember the good old days, when right wingers loved law and order?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 22, 2014 - 10:30pm PT
^^^ You mean like this?



and this


Dorli Rainey, 84-Year-Old Occupy Seattle Protester, Pepper Sprayed In The Face.


Good times.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Apr 22, 2014 - 10:33pm PT
those fukin commies got why they deserved. or socialists. whatever is opposite of what obama is
dirtbag

climber
Apr 22, 2014 - 10:39pm PT
Yeah Philo. Funny how none of them are clamoring for BLM rangers to spray the rednecks.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Apr 22, 2014 - 10:39pm PT
Probably because he's a no-birth-certificate-havin black socialist Muslim!
you left out Athiest.... as in Athiest Muslim... cuz well... you can't be both unless you are ignorant. So you can.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 22, 2014 - 10:42pm PT
Philo...What was the subliminal message scorched into the trees behind the microcopter...rj
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Apr 22, 2014 - 10:43pm PT
queer's is evil. that's what is says
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 22, 2014 - 10:45pm PT
18,000 US citizen farmers and ranchers pay their grazing fees. One cuntroach from Nevadastan won't and the red necks come oozing forth like the social filth they are.

Fight for a real cause or a real grievance or fade into humiliating ludicrousness.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 22, 2014 - 10:52pm PT
Mustering my troops
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 22, 2014 - 10:56pm PT
Ron...Put dem red cowboy boots on and i'll pay you a visit...rj
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 22, 2014 - 10:56pm PT
How much for untraceable guns?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 22, 2014 - 11:04pm PT
All this talk of "domestic terrorists from sycophants of their prince that counts real convicted domestic terrorists as close friends.


rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 22, 2014 - 11:06pm PT
TGT..We all have skeletons in closets...Where's your crotchless clown suit photo...?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 22, 2014 - 11:06pm PT
Yea another cuntroach shows up.

As usual limpdick posts unsubstantiated Koch drool.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 22, 2014 - 11:23pm PT

"when dissent turns to violence it invites tragedy"
Richard Nixon
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 22, 2014 - 11:27pm PT


18,000 US citizen farmers and ranchers pay their grazing fees.


This is the stat I was waiting for and it says it all.

I'm sure somebody's going to dispute it so - have at it.


Oh yeah, how many Bundy-ites (i.e. non-payers) are there?

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 22, 2014 - 11:28pm PT
It has been posted on this thread several times before by me and others. It is a fact.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 22, 2014 - 11:33pm PT
Sorry - I do not have the inclination to read all the posts in threads like these. I try to scan thru 'em quickly though.

What folks need to consider, however, is that this bantering back and forth really has pretty minimal impact on people's opinions and/or actions in the world.

So have at it and make sure you're enjoying the time spent.



EDIT: Who is Harold Head? That's a new one on me.

EDIT2: Nevermind, I don't know how this one slipped past me.



dirtbag

climber
Apr 22, 2014 - 11:38pm PT
TGT:


You're a liar.

Are you proud of that?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Apr 22, 2014 - 11:46pm PT
We've dealt with ignorant rednecks before. Soon, we'll be marching through Nevader. Obummer sez, "I intend to make Nevada howl."

[Click to View YouTube Video]








zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 22, 2014 - 11:46pm PT
I sell guns to ANYONE that passes the brady back ground check that ISNT from California. We do not deal with Californians due to excessive/oppressive laws there. Now if youd like to come see me personally,, 17 A Martin Dr, Moundhouse NV 89706 is where im at. ANYTIME.

Well, if I got a fake ID, saying I was from, say Michigan, would you sell me a gun if I told you my intent was to use it to kill a cop for Huey?

Would I like some nuclear bullets with that order? You bet.



EDIT: White power ... er ... panthers

zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 22, 2014 - 11:53pm PT
I can dig it.

zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 22, 2014 - 11:55pm PT
Wholey sheeeit!!!

Harold (and Elmo aka sidmo) appears to have been involved in the 1977 Plane crash affair.


StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 22, 2014 - 11:56pm PT
Shoot first, and make up excuses later

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/arms-georgia-governor-sign-controversial-gun-bill-wednesday-n86941

WTF?
WBraun

climber
Apr 23, 2014 - 12:01am PT
Harold (and Elmo aka sidmo) appears to have been involved in the 1977 Plane crash affair.

aka sidmo

LOL hahaha ......
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Apr 23, 2014 - 12:31am PT
Gary,
where did that last picture come from? pretty intense photo...
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 23, 2014 - 01:13am PT
Yep, this is the sort of former LEO Rong is:

"One protester, a former Arizona sheriff named Richard Mack, told Fox News about the militia's plans if violence broke out in Bunkerville. “We were actually strategizing to put all the women up at the front. If they are going to start shooting, it’s going to be women that are going to be televised all across the world getting shot by these rogue federal officers.”

How can we stand up against these brave Americans??? <snicker>
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 23, 2014 - 01:14am PT
I sell guns to ANYONE that passes the brady back ground check that ISNT from California. We do not deal with Californians due to excessive/oppressive laws there. Now if youd like to come see me personally,, 17 A Martin Dr, Moundhouse NV 89706 is where im at. ANYTIME.

I believe him.

After all, he clearly explained how he would facilitate false flag sales to foreigners, circumventing all sorts of laws.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 23, 2014 - 05:25am PT
"I've lived my lifetime here. My forefathers have been up and down the Virgin Valley here ever since 1877. All these rights that I claim, have been created through pre-emptive rights and beneficial use of the forage and the water and the access and range improvements," Bundy said.

Clark County property records show Cliven Bundy's parents moved from Bundyville, Arizona and bought the 160 acre ranch in 1948 from Raoul and Ruth Leavitt.

Water rights were transferred too, but only to the ranch, not the federally managed land surrounding it. Court records show Bundy family cattle didn't start grazing on that land until 1954.

...

Early census records show Cliven's maternal grandmother, Christena Jensen, was born in Nevada in 1901. One genealogical researcher says records indicate Jensen helped settle Bunkerville some years later.

...

The local Paiute Indians were forced into reservations by federal troops in 1875. Two years prior, the tribe was promised the same land Cliven Bundy now grows his melons ,and until recently, grazed his cattle.

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25301551/bundys-ancestral-rights-come-under-scrutiny


Tl;dr: no ancestral rights. No claims to the land he's grazing on. No water rights to the land he's grazing on. This guy is either a huge liar or hilariously misinformed about his property and ancestry. Probably both.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Apr 23, 2014 - 10:39am PT
where did that last picture come from? pretty intense photo...

That's Sherman in Atlanta. Or what was left of it after he was done with it.
War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen, and I say let us give them all they want.

zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 23, 2014 - 10:56am PT
Maybe convert the whole area into a bombing test range.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 23, 2014 - 12:44pm PT
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 23, 2014 - 05:59pm PT
^^^ Except for "Lizard People" of course.How else could you explain Karl Rove?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 23, 2014 - 06:19pm PT
DaveKOS wrote
American "patriots" taking up arms against other Americans enforcing an American court orders that went through the American courts to enforce an executive order that was issued decades ago by an American president that has been elevated in folklore by the American patriots as a true American president (unlike the current American president) all to protect an American who (falsely) claims that by American principle (not law) that he can do whatever he pleases with the land because he was using it before it was even part of America (nevermind the native Americans.)

I disagree with the outcomes of the democratic process! TO ARMS!

This whole situation perfectly illustrates the problem with the "we need to be armed to protect are freedom from the government" mentality. Literally no American has ever won an argument with the US government by using guns. Slaves were freed, women were no longer prevented from voting or going to school, segregation was ended and gays were no longer prevented from getting married all without shots being fired by the oppressed. The rare times when people in those movements (namely desegregation) brandished weapons arguably set their progress backward.

After all, what is the proper response to armed black men legally demonstrating their second amendment rights?


By enacting gun control of course!

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/09/the-secret-history-of-guns/308608/2/

Republicans in California eagerly supported increased gun control. Governor Reagan told reporters that afternoon that he saw “no reason why on the street today a citizen should be carrying loaded weapons.” He called guns a “ridiculous way to solve problems that have to be solved among people of good will.” In a later press conference, Reagan said he didn’t “know of any sportsman who leaves his home with a gun to go out into the field to hunt or for target shooting who carries that gun loaded.” The Mulford Act, he said, “would work no hardship on the honest citizen.”

The fear inspired by black people with guns also led the United States Congress to consider new gun restrictions, after the summer of 1967 brought what the historian Harvard Sitkoff called the “most intense and destructive wave of racial violence the nation had ever witnessed.” Devastating riots engulfed Detroit and Newark. Police and National Guardsmen who tried to help restore order were greeted with sniper fire.

A 1968 federal report blamed the unrest at least partly on the easy availability of guns. Because rioters used guns to keep law enforcement at bay, the report’s authors asserted that a recent spike in firearms sales and permit applications was “directly related to the actuality and prospect of civil disorders.” They drew “the firm conclusion that effective firearms controls are an essential contribution to domestic peace and tranquility.”

Thanks, Reagan!
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 23, 2014 - 06:43pm PT
The rare times when people in those movements (namely desegregation) brandished weapons arguably set their progress backward.

These days a computer is far more effective against the government than guns.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 23, 2014 - 06:47pm PT
Police and National Guardsmen who tried to help restore order were greeted with sniper fire.
Does the Atlantic also mention the Ohio Guardsmen who shot 4 peacefully protesting Kent State students to death in 1969? Nope.

Our government HAS learned some lessons from Kent State, Ruby Ridge and Waco.

however, from the last few paragraphs of the excellent Atlantic article:
.
IN 2008, IN A LANDMARK ruling, the U.S. Supreme Court declared that the government cannot ever completely disarm the citizenry. In District of Columbia v. Heller, the Supreme Court clearly held, for the first time, that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual’s right to possess a gun.
.
.
The lower courts consistently point to one paragraph in particular from the Heller decision. Nothing in the opinion, Scalia wrote, should

"be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms."

This paragraph from the pen of Justice Scalia, the foremost proponent of constitutional originalism, was astounding

oh the irony!
(underlining in the quote is mine)
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 23, 2014 - 07:10pm PT
Defining mentally ill seems to be the rub. I better get off of SuperTopo if I wanna keep my guns.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 23, 2014 - 08:08pm PT
A few months ago it was Duck Dynasty. Bundy took up dead air for a week or two...soon, we'll get another nutcase right-winger stirring up the base & Fox with ridiculous antics.

Boring.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 23, 2014 - 09:38pm PT
^^^^ See there is "proof" lizard people are real and that Karl Rove is one of them.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 23, 2014 - 10:06pm PT
Who ordered the shredded beef?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 23, 2014 - 10:28pm PT
Reilly......You're mentally ill....in a good way....rj
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 23, 2014 - 10:54pm PT
I do expect some more bluster and/or bullschist from the mentally-ill/mentally-challenged conservatives, after they do some drinkin.

I do think highDesertDJ summed up the most damming evidence on Clive Bundy this morning.

Apr 23, 2014 - 02:25am PT

"I've lived my lifetime here. My forefathers have been up and down the Virgin Valley here ever since 1877. All these rights that I claim, have been created through pre-emptive rights and beneficial use of the forage and the water and the access and range improvements," Bundy said.

Clark County property records show Cliven Bundy's parents moved from Bundyville, Arizona and bought the 160 acre ranch in 1948 from Raoul and Ruth Leavitt.

Water rights were transferred too, but only to the ranch, not the federally managed land surrounding it. Court records show Bundy family cattle didn't start grazing on that land until 1954.

...

Early census records show Cliven's maternal grandmother, Christena Jensen, was born in Nevada in 1901. One genealogical researcher says records indicate Jensen helped settle Bunkerville some years later.

...

The local Paiute Indians were forced into reservations by federal troops in 1875. Two years prior, the tribe was promised the same land Cliven Bundy now grows his melons ,and until recently, grazed his cattle.


http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25301551/bundys-ancestral-rights-come-under-scrutiny


Tl;dr: no ancestral rights. No claims to the land he's grazing on. No water rights to the land he's grazing on. This guy is either a huge liar or hilariously misinformed about his property and ancestry. Probably both.


As mentioned upthread, the conservatives that support strange causes like Clive Bundy fuking the American People out of grazing fees, don't believe in published facts. They believe instead in lies, rumors, and bullschist, since that suits their belief-system.

And of course this is all about the American freedom for Clive Bundy to abuse livestock, even though that freedom doesn't seem to be in the constitution.
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Apr 23, 2014 - 11:12pm PT
That cow video is the funniest thing on this thread...and that's saying a lot!
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 24, 2014 - 09:58am PT
Surprise, surprise, ol' Clive turns out to be a racist....can't wait to see how Propaganda Minister Hannity spins this..

“I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro,” he said. Mr. Bundy recalled driving past a public-housing project in North Las Vegas, “and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids — and there is always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch — they didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for their kids to do. They didn’t have nothing for their young girls to do.

Continue reading the main story
“And because they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do?” he asked. “They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.”
dirtbag

climber
Apr 24, 2014 - 10:05am PT
In other words, he's no different than his defenders.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 24, 2014 - 10:15am PT
Well at least Craven Bundy is not prejudiced. Freedom to live as slaves.

Referring to "The Negro". (plural I assume)


... because they never learned how to pick cotton. ... They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.”
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 24, 2014 - 10:26am PT
Racism is the glue that binds the far-right together. You think it was a coincidence the Tea Party was formed a few months after Obama's election? Gonna be fun watching politicians unhitch their wagons from this wacko.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:04am PT
I'm sure his defenders here will likewise abandon ship.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:09am PT
Looks like the Tea-partiers are jumping off of Clive Bundy's ship like the rats they are.

GOP Scrambles to Condemn Rancher's Remarks on Race
By Carrie Dann
Offering words of encouragement for a rancher leading an armed standoff against federal rangers turns out to be not so great of a political move – especially when the rancher in question muses publicly about the benefits of slavery.

Republicans – including possible 2016 candidate Rand Paul -- are scrambling to distance themselves from defiant Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy after he made startling comments about slavery and African-Americans in a New York Times article published Wednesday night.

From the Times’ Adam Nagourney:

“I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro,” he said. Mr. Bundy recalled driving past a public-housing project in North Las Vegas, “and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids — and there is always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch — they didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for their kids to do. They didn’t have nothing for their young girls to do.

“And because they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do?” he asked. “They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.”

Bundy had previously drawn support from some GOP lawmakers for his clash with the Bureau of Land Management.

After Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid called Bundy and his allies “domestic violent terrorist wannabes,” fellow Sen. Dean Heller countered last week that they are “patriots.” Paul urged Reid to “calm the rhetoric” and criticized the federal government for what he described as an intimidating presence during the standoff. “The federal government shouldn’t violate the law, nor should we have 48 federal agencies carrying weapons and having SWAT teams,” he told a Kentucky radio station.

In statements after Bundy’s remarks, both Paul and Heller condemned his comments.

"His remarks on race are offensive and I wholeheartedly disagree with him,” said Paul.

And a spokesman for Heller told the Times that the senator “completely disagrees with Mr. Bundy’s appalling and racist statements, and condemns them in the most strenuous way.”
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/gop-scrambles-condemn-ranchers-remarks-race-n88556

Ron? You and everyone you know in Nevada won't let this bother you? Right?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:22am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
GuapoVino

climber
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:28am PT
Cliven Bundy said:
because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom

This sounds kind of like what Phil (blows on phallic device) Robertson said.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:33am PT
Keep in mind, a few years ago Rand Paul openly criticized the Civil Rights Act, lamenting the fact that it interferes with property rights. That statement alone ensures Paul will never become president.

Bundy and Paul are not so different.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:42am PT
Watching the Boulder and Berkeley crowd publicly defend federal tools in order to be able to disagree with Ron is comedy gold
dirtbag

climber
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:45am PT
So you believe freeloading lawbreakers who have had their day--multiple days, in fact--in court, lost, then threaten federal employees, should be able to get away with it?


Do you?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:47am PT
Hankster wins all the marbles with that babbling cow.

[Click to View YouTube Video]







This one is priceless.
The Federal Government doesn't exist? Whew....Out to lunch, coo coo, coo coo...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:50am PT
Right, they are defending federal tools just so they can disagree with Ron... not because they think violent opposition and anarchy are ridiculous options.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 24, 2014 - 12:35pm PT
Rand Paul and other Republican leaders back away from Bundy


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2014/04/24/rand-paul-and-other-republican-leaders-back-away-from-bundy/?hpid=z1

Nevada Sen. Dean Heller's spokesperson said Thursday, “Senator Heller completely disagrees with Mr. Bundy’s appalling and racist statements, and condemns them in the most strenuous way.” While on a local television show with his fellow Nevada senator Harry Reid, Heller said, “What Sen. Reid may call domestic terrorists, I call patriots. “We have a very different view on this.”


Arizona state Sen. Kelli Ward — who spoke at a Bundy rally in Nevada this month — wrote in an e-mail to The Washington Post: "Apparently he has some thoughts that aren't shared by many Americans.

Van Susteren has also distanced herself from Bundy. A headline on her Web site linking to the New York Times story reads, "Let Me Make This Plain: I Condemn What Cliven Bundy Said About African Americans."

Kentucky Sen. Rand Paul released a statement Thursday saying, Bundy's "remarks on race are offensive and I wholeheartedly disagree with him."

Lauren Scott, who is running for a Nevada Assembly seat this year, tweeted, "Nevadans may support your views on the BLM but your bigoted and racist views are are not welcome in Nevada, Mr. Bundy."

It must GALL Rong to be Rong again, that his much loved far right wing opponents of Harry Reid have to concede that REID WAS RIGHT. That the guy is a racist, and has a racist agenda.

RONG! RONG! WRONG!
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Apr 24, 2014 - 12:42pm PT
Jon Stewart crushed it.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 24, 2014 - 12:44pm PT
I don't remember if it was here or on the other Bundy thread, but very early on one wise poster warned our rightie friends here not to adopt Bundy as their cause. Well, he was right!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 24, 2014 - 12:46pm PT
According to the LA Times' editorial today

"...the state Constitution recognized that ownership [federal] years before
Bundy's ancestors arrived, despite his assertion otherwise. (Various reports
also have cast serious doubt on whether his family was grazing cattle on the
land as long ago as he claims.) For that matter, if prior use of land were all
that was needed to avoid paying a landlord, the land would revert back not
to Bundy but to the control of Native Americans..."

"Despite his professed disbelief in the US government, Bundy brought his case
in federal court, so apparently he does recognize the federal government when
he thinks he might gain something from it. But the courts repeatedly ruled
against him. Which makes Bundy more of a bad loser than a folk hero. He
would surely have insisted that the court rulings be followed if they had gone
in his favor."
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 24, 2014 - 12:47pm PT
I love Nevada. I can blow off whatever laws I want and be a PATRIOT!!

Ron will call out the militia for me! WOO HOO!!!
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Apr 24, 2014 - 01:04pm PT
^ the voice of reason
lol
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 24, 2014 - 01:16pm PT
Arizona state Sen. Kelli Ward — who spoke at a Bundy rally in Nevada this month — wrote in an e-mail to The Washington Post: "Apparently he has some thoughts that aren't shared by many Americans.
D'OH!!
....what was her first clue? She didn't see this the day before she went to the Bundy rally??
So now that Bundy's finally coming out of his racist closet the Proud Patriots are running for their political lives.
WTF did they think?
Any of them.
Rand Paul not the least.

They haven't got the sense god gave geese!
(one of me Dear Departed Mum's favorite sayings)
dirtbag

climber
Apr 24, 2014 - 01:18pm PT
I guess you decided not to answer my question Braunini.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Apr 24, 2014 - 01:55pm PT
"I used to live in North Las Vegas and it is home to some of the hardest-working people I have ever met -- men and women who embody the American dream by working hard every day to build a better life for themselves and their families," Reid, a Democrat, said in a statement.

"By contrast, Cliven Bundy has spent decades profiting off government land while refusing to pay the same fair use fees as his fellow ranchers. Today, Bundy revealed himself to be a hateful racist. But by denigrating people who work hard and play by the rules while he mooches off public land he also revealed himself to be a hypocrite."
dirtbag

climber
Apr 24, 2014 - 02:01pm PT
But Reid's getting rich off of solar, or tortoises, or sumthin!

(Funny, I've asked our rightie friends here for the source of this claim, and outside of wingnutnews.com, they could never provide it.)

Turns out ol' Harry was right about Bundy all along. Again, what a surprise.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Apr 24, 2014 - 02:34pm PT

your friend, Cliven Bundy...

[Click to View YouTube Video]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRl3Jdx586A
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Apr 24, 2014 - 02:35pm PT
Email update from the Burns Brigade:

"Tonight's meeting at the Carson City Jack In The Box is postponed until further notice. Featured Speaker, W. Boy, from Pep Boys Tires, will not be discussing "The Impact of Ravens and Horses on Endangered Tortoises". No further public events planned. All meetings will now be conducted jointly with the Northern Nevada Klan and not publicized. White Power!"
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 24, 2014 - 02:42pm PT
Here's an interesting question. Bundy starts out that little rant with "Let me tell you ONE MORE thing I know about the negro."

The question is, what was his previous point about "the negro?"

"Little government houses."
Are there a lot of "negro" living in "little government houses" in north Las Vegas?
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 24, 2014 - 02:44pm PT
hahaha

I <3 atchafalaya
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 24, 2014 - 02:52pm PT
That video is disgusting in so many ways.

EDIT:
mechrist
having grown up in Utaaahr 'n awll myself (and escaped many years ago) I am somewhat surprised that there are cretins still living in the 19th century. But then again, that neck of the woods is known for polygamy so I shouldn't be too surprised. A guy I went to high school with is a notorious ex-con polygamist.
so call me disgusted but not all that surprised.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 24, 2014 - 02:55pm PT
I am soo shocked that an anti-government mormon rancher is also a racist.

It kind of destroys my whole world view, having grown up in Utah and all.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 24, 2014 - 03:07pm PT
If is wasn't so sad and disgusting you almost have to laugh.

Go Ron, TGT and the rest of the as#@&%es who defended this huge POS.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 24, 2014 - 03:42pm PT
On a serious note...

There is a reason why Faux News, the number one news network, has been running with this story. And that is, notwithstanding the bullsh#t, specious claims, a sizeable minority of folks are seriously pissed off at the federal government, in an ill-informed knee jerk sort of way. And arguments to the contrary will not work. (Did they work in this thread?)

Sooner or later there will be another Bundy, one who is savvy enough not to tell us one more thing about negroes. He probably will be just as wrong as Bundy, but it won't matter one bit.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 24, 2014 - 03:54pm PT
Hey, where did all the Bundy supporters go? I was looking forward to their comments about liberals taking away his right to free speech.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Apr 24, 2014 - 04:33pm PT
what's this about a Sleeping Gnat?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 24, 2014 - 04:48pm PT
They sent the Federal SWAT after this guy, because his cows were eating The King's grass.

[Click to View YouTube Video]



crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 24, 2014 - 04:51pm PT
Dr. F, you're having a great day...keep up the posts. You are dead on. Gotta get you a talk radio show.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Apr 24, 2014 - 05:30pm PT
I love how this is developing. Well.. really I don't. I do wish that racism would go away forever. But clearly it's alive and well - especially in the backaswards country of nevada. But.... that aside it's now going to be interesting to see how those supporting this welfare queen react. Make no mistake many of his supporters, like him, are racists.

So...

1) stick with him and you support a racist. Inference would be you too are one (not a reach by much).

2) admit you are rong and distance yourself from him and his situation.

3) go silent

10% stick with him, 90% slink away and go silent. No way any pull #2 - ignorant stupid people just don't know how to do that. period.


BTW.... Jon Stewart from last night where he rips Hannity a new one like never before was priceless. And his show aired before the "negro" comment from the unamerican mooch. So it'll get even better tonight.
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
Apr 24, 2014 - 05:45pm PT
even Uncle Ed and Jack Burns knew what to call it: range maggots on welfare.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 24, 2014 - 05:46pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Why is it that John Stewart makes so much more sense than news guys who aren't trying to be funny.

Bottom line, it's curious that race has become the issue that exploded this thing. Under the surface, there are many on the right who are extremely bothered by what they consider an uppity Negro.

If Reagan was president, no uproar, no support

Peace

Karl
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Apr 24, 2014 - 05:48pm PT
Yeah I saw it. Funny as usual. Tonight's should be really good, lol!
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 24, 2014 - 06:07pm PT
The Bundy supporters are focusing on the Gun thread now....go figure
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 24, 2014 - 06:11pm PT
I have no problem saying everyone involved are ass-holes. Bundy, the Federal Government, the BLM, Obama, Hanity. Everybody. Ass-holes all.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Apr 24, 2014 - 06:17pm PT
Karl... that was from Monday night. Hannity responded to Jon (big mistake - lol!) to which Mr. Stewart had his rebuttal to the hypocrite last night. Tonight gonna be good.


I guess there was an option 4) - deny Mr Welfare Queen is a racist (some will)
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Apr 24, 2014 - 07:55pm PT
goddamn, Blazing Saddles references are awesome. All of a sudden, the staunch defenders of this ignorant moocher are silent..It all comes down to that darkie in the WHITE House. Deny until you're blue in the face, crackers...
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 24, 2014 - 08:06pm PT
Cliven Bundy....I think they were better off as slaves.


Go Rong!!!
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 24, 2014 - 08:09pm PT
The Bundy Gang is waiting for the Fox talking points....the welfare cowboy hero has lost his luster.

The cockroaches always scatter when the lights come on.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 24, 2014 - 08:11pm PT
The number of Bundy supporters in Bunkerville will likely increase because of his "negro" comments.
klinefelter

Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
Apr 24, 2014 - 08:17pm PT
More Bundy quotes just prior to his negro statement:
“Where is our colored brother? Where is our Mexican brother? Where is our Chinese? Where are they? They’re just as much American as we are, and they’re not with us. If they’re not with us, they’re going to be against us.”

The "Ranch War", it turns out, is basically a Klan rally without the hoods.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 24, 2014 - 08:49pm PT
This could have repercussions on the '16 presidential race. Rand Paul went all in for Bundy. Gonna hurt him. Don't blame Hillary yet, his own party rivals will tear him apart in the primaries.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2014/04/24/krauthammer_on_bundy_it_isnt_enough_to_say_i_dont_agree_with_what_he_said.html
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Apr 24, 2014 - 09:09pm PT
It will yet again be Bush vs Clinton.





Bundy needs to patch that bullet hole in his foot.
Too bad the rednecks don't understand how much he blew it.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 24, 2014 - 09:22pm PT
Well that was weak

You know we don't really care what you think right?

Can't believe there were people here saying 'oh where's Ron waaah I miss him boo hoo'
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 24, 2014 - 09:30pm PT
Ron, you're stupid. I don't mean that as an insult, it's just reality.

OK, I lied, it's an insult.

Dig your hole, Ron. You have an abundance of shovels.

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 24, 2014 - 09:42pm PT
Jon Stewart's response to Hannity is up on the net and will wet your appetite for tonight which will be like taking candy from a baby

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/full-episodes/jxvcqy/april-23--2014---robin-roberts?xrs=synd_facebook_042414_tds_21
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 24, 2014 - 09:46pm PT
Ron wrote: i cant see why any Hispanic would vote republican"..Racist you say...?



Why would they??


Racist Ron, the defender of a lying sack of sh#t, white, regressive thinking cowboy.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 24, 2014 - 09:54pm PT
Folk hero? Total ignorant as#@&%e. Ranchers get more welfare dollars than just about anyone and this lowlife was grazing illegally. Well his remarks are going to bite him in the ass and i hope that Fox News and others that defended him get nipped too.
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Apr 24, 2014 - 10:05pm PT
No body denies there are racists and pro-slavery bigots in America in 2014. Now that Bundy, a TEA party darling, is fully exposed as one of their champions, anyone who once backed him but does not now denounce him (remains silent or shifts discussion), is, by default, in concurrence with his pro-slavery, bigoted stance.

Let's not be coy. This is yet another huge crisis for the rightwing militia/TEA party/republican types that they hope fades away suddenly. On the other hand, it's a prime opportunity to expose the naked truth: they're inherently bigoted.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 24, 2014 - 10:07pm PT
Ron, stop the bleeding.

Say this: " I'm a good natured fella, really. I like climbing, like ya'all. I live in Nevada and my politics are reflective. I mistrust the government. I believe in personal responsibility. We like guns out here.

This Bundy fella seemed like a hero, but on reflection I can see he's a racist extremist and I want no part of it. Let's go climbing."
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 24, 2014 - 10:07pm PT
what is wrong with being a bigot anyway?

at least you stand for and stick to your....principles

fellow bigots admire that quality
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 24, 2014 - 10:09pm PT
Please, Ron, just apologize. Stop the madness!
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 24, 2014 - 10:14pm PT
Ron, the entire BLM deal now is so far overshadowed by Bundy's racist comments that that issue is now dead. His mainstream followers have abandoned him. He is poison. There's no going back.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 24, 2014 - 10:15pm PT
Ron's back & he's going to show why we are all so Rrhong about this issue!

Ron! Go post on the gun thread. This thread makes you and all the other ill-informeded posteurs that favored the Mormon Rancher, tax-cheat, liar, racist idiot:---------look stupid.

Yere' so:

Rrhong!

Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Apr 24, 2014 - 10:17pm PT
I said on 4/9:

This is tough situation. Cliven Bundy has called the bluff, and it ain't working out. If I were the judge at this point, let Bundy go uncharged for back-charges as long as he pays forward or gets out of there. I feel for this guy and want the best for him.

I somehow related to Bundy in many ways; but, when it come to his bigoted views, we part forever. That also goes for his supporters. He lost me.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 24, 2014 - 10:20pm PT
Fluffy and Crankster, posting in the true spirit of debate !

lol you think it's a debate
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Apr 24, 2014 - 10:20pm PT
Hey Ron,
What will Jesus, the Prince of Peace, say to you being a arms dealer? ( That's a rhetorical question as I don't think that you know god. So I won't be listening to you responding on behalf of a mythological supreme creator.) American White Muscular Militant Christians are such a low wattage bunch. Sheep with guns instead of a Shephard. As you were.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 24, 2014 - 10:24pm PT
Those comments of Cliven Bundy were edited to paint him in a certain light.

See the unedited and edited versions here; http://patdollard.com/2014/04/shock-hoax-exposed-full-clip-of-cliven-bundys-non-racist-pro-black-anti-government-remarks-vs-media-matters-deceptively-edited-hoax-version-see-that-cliven-bundy-is-actually-an-advocat/

Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 24, 2014 - 10:38pm PT
As a reminder for those with short memories!

Posted by High Dessert earlier in this thread:

Apr 23, 2014 - 02:25am PT

"I've lived my lifetime here. My forefathers have been up and down the Virgin Valley here ever since 1877. All these rights that I claim, have been created through pre-emptive rights and beneficial use of the forage and the water and the access and range improvements," Bundy said.

Clark County property records show Cliven Bundy's parents moved from Bundyville, Arizona and bought the 160 acre ranch in 1948 from Raoul and Ruth Leavitt.

Water rights were transferred too, but only to the ranch, not the federally managed land surrounding it. Court records show Bundy family cattle didn't start grazing on that land until 1954.

...

Early census records show Cliven's maternal grandmother, Christena Jensen, was born in Nevada in 1901. One genealogical researcher says records indicate Jensen helped settle Bunkerville some years later.

...

The local Paiute Indians were forced into reservations by federal troops in 1875. Two years prior, the tribe was promised the same land Cliven Bundy now grows his melons ,and until recently, grazed his cattle.


http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25301551/bundys-ancestral-rights-come-under-scrutiny


Tl;dr: no ancestral rights. No claims to the land he's grazing on. No water rights to the land he's grazing on. This guy is either a huge liar or hilariously misinformed about his property and ancestry. Probably both.


and earlier by High Traversse.

Apr 22, 2014 - 12:32pm PT
SO I've been staying away from this slugfest for a week. There's a good chance I've missed a good debunking of Cliven Bundy

But in case it didn't get posted here, the Las Vegas TV news "I Team" has dug around in the historical records.
Blundy is either stoopider or more deceitful than at first appeared (even I bought some of his family story)

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25301551/bundys-ancestral-rights-come-under-scrutiny


Bundy explained his "ancestral rights" to the I-Team.

"I've lived my lifetime here. My forefathers have been up and down the Virgin Valley here ever since 1877. All these rights that I claim, have been created through pre-emptive rights and beneficial use of the forage and the water and the access and range improvements," Bundy said.
Hard to decipher what Bundy claims from that gobbledygook. The "Virgin Valley" goes well up into Utah. One branch goes through Toquerville.


Clark County property records show Cliven Bundy's parents moved from Bundyville, Arizona and bought the 160 acre ranch in 1948 from Raoul and Ruth Leavitt.

Water rights were transferred too, but only to the ranch, not the federally managed land surrounding it. Court records show Bundy family cattle didn't start grazing on that land until 1954.

The Bureau of Land Management was created 1946, the same year Cliven was born.
EDIT:
OOPS....Wrong! No significant part of the Virgin River is in Arizona.

Virgin River Gorge
blah blah
Dyamn, you're right. I sit corrected. The Virgin River cuts across the extreme upper left of AZ.
End EDIT


Early census records show Cliven's maternal grandmother, Christena Jensen, was born in Nevada in 1901. One genealogical researcher says records indicate Jensen helped settle Bunkerville some years later.

Wasn't Bundy claiming his property rights go back to his family in 1877?

Bundy repeated a similar claim Thursday when he told TheBlaze website: “My family has preemptive, adjudicated livestock water rights filed with the state of Nevada. They were established in 1877 when the first pioneers entered the valley. Among those first pioneers were my grandparents from my mother’s side. My father either bought or inherited his Nevada state livestock water rights and I, in turn, have done the same.”

There's a lot more here.
http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25302186/an-abbreviated-look-at-rancher-cliven-bundys-family-history

None of which of course has any bearing on his so-called "right" to graze for free on BLM land.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2384563&tn=2380
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 24, 2014 - 10:42pm PT
Anyone here ever eaten at the Cracker Box in Carson?

It is 100% clear that Cliven Bundy is not saying that blacks should be slaves picking cotton...

Nah, of course not. He was just wonder, out loud, if they might be better off if blacks had learned to pick cotton... kind of like Phil Robertson wondering if blacks would have been happier remaining slave.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 24, 2014 - 10:42pm PT
Bluering,

Are you supporting Bundy?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 24, 2014 - 10:53pm PT
It's in the American genes to have sympathy for the little guy who believes he's been wronged. It's one of the national traits that makes us naturally suspicious of government.
I'm a Liberal (yes, with a capital L) and I've seen our Federal government treat its citizens badly. Vietnam war demonstrators, Kent State protestors, overreaching surveillance, capital punishment, stupid and morally wrong foreign wars. A very long list even in just the past 50 years. And mostly by Republican administrations (Nixon, Reagan, BushII). Those great defenders of the rights of the little guy.

But usually the guy the Feds are after is in fact WRONG. Like Bundy. The Feds have given him due process and overdue respect considering he's been a deliberate law breaker for 20 years.
I even have a smidgen of sympathy for him; for the not so bright guy who gets sucked in by whacko political philosophy and becomes the pawn of the "militias" and Hannities of the world. I have no sympathy for his racism nor for his so-called "friends" who are now running like rats abandoning a sinking ship.

The Feds will quietly bide their time. I'm sure they've got an arrest warrant out for him. They'll eventually pick him up when things quiet down and when he runs a red light it will be off to jail with him. Will be interesting to see who pays his bail. Perhaps he'll put up 600 head of cattle and a 160 acre ranch for collateral.
As I've asked several times on this thread: where is the Hotshot Conservative Attorney who's taking his case pro bono? Where are the Hannities who are putting up money for a paid defense? Nowhere to be found.
They are all using him. The entire screeching and baying mob of them. They could give a F**K about Bundy the man and his family. If they did, they'd be raising the $$ to pay off his debt to the US Citizens.
Ron, Chief, have you sent $$ to his defense fund? If you can find it.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 24, 2014 - 10:53pm PT
Bluering,

Are you supporting Bundy?

Depends what you mean by 'supporting'.

He's obviously in violation of the law, but the BLM was too overhanded too, and killed his cattle and destroyed his property.

In general, I support Mr. Bundy. He needs to walk cautiously though.

EDIT: Whoa!!!
If they did, they'd be raising the $$ to pay off his debt to the US Citizens.
Ron, Chief, have you sent $$ to his defense fund? If you can find it.


This is brilliant. And I'm serious about that!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 24, 2014 - 10:57pm PT
they killed his cattle and destroyed his property?

I had not read that, not paying that close attention

got a source, link, where you got that information I can read up on, thanks?
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 24, 2014 - 10:59pm PT
"Mr. Bundy?" Such respect, blue. You do know he's been esposed as a racist? Right?
Here's your shovel. Keep digging.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:04pm PT
Yes, exposed.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:05pm PT
One more point.
Much has been made of Bundy being Mormon. This is also out of line. As if being Mormon goes along with being a lawbreaker. "I've known many Mormons and some of them have even been friends of mine", including legal scholars and a Federal Magistrate.
I've tossed in the "Mormon" label a couple of times myself. Wrong.
This should have nothing to do with religion, there'a a different thread for that.

Hey bluey, we've got to get together over a beer or two.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:08pm PT
Six cows were killed/putdown.

I'm defending all the BLM actions.


Not of this would have happened if Bundy would have follows the law and paid his taxes. That is a simple fact.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:09pm PT
http://patdollard.com/2014/04/shock-hoax-exposed-full-clip-of-cliven-bundys-non-racist-pro-black-anti-government-remarks-vs-media-matters-deceptively-edited-hoax-version-see-that-cliven-bundy-is-actually-an-advocat/

edited and unedited video of Bundy's comments.

They also did property damage in addition to cattle killings.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:10pm PT
Norton
I read in reputable press (either Salt Lake Tribune or the LV paper, perhaps both) that a few of his cattle were put down. Several diseased cattle were euthanized so they wouldn't infect the herd. I think a couple were seriously injured in the roundup and melee. It was a small number. The Feds weren't out to kill the cattle. Hell they wanted to take them up to Utah and auction them off. They were worth as much to the Feds as to Bundy.

They also did property damage in addition to cattle killings.
You stick your thumb in the Man's eye and there will be consequences. Bundy's crowd created the confrontation when they defied legal due process.
Try spitting in the eye of the next Cop who pulls you over for speeding. Then let's hear good ole conservative talk show Law and Order.
John M

climber
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:12pm PT
They also did property damage in addition to cattle killings.

what damage? Its federal land.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:18pm PT
Keep it up, righties! Ride it right to Election Day!

Conservative commentators were out in force Thursday to denounce Cliven Bundy’s comments about race, and Charles Krauthammer followed suit on Special Report earlier this evening.

“It isn’t enough to say I don’t agree with what he said. This is a despicable statement. You have to disassociate yourself entirely from the man. It’s not like the words exist here and the man exists here,” he said.

Krauthammer noted that Bundy doesn’t recognize the authority of the United States of America, and asked why that makes him a patriot to some people.

“I love this country, I love the constitution, and it’s the constitution that established the government that all of us have to recognize. And for him to reject it was the beginning of all of this,” he said.

Krauthammer warned against making a “conservative hero” out of someone who simply takes a stance against the government. He suggest people “wait, watch, and think” before deeming someone a hero.

Ron, note the "think" part.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:24pm PT

Apr 24, 2014 - 08:20pm PT
I also defended my Black Brother so he could return to Africa, and Educated Blackman in the time of apartheid. What the hell have YOU DONE??

Huh? This is the stuff you say on peyote.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:25pm PT
OK Bluering. I watched the full video you posted the link to. It was also edited, but since the man/group that posted it is:

PAT DOLLARD/THE WAR STARTS HERE
How can you expect us to believe it is anything but right-wing hate propaganda??

By the way, there was nothing new in it from the New York Times Video, except that Cliven likes Mexicans better than blacks.

My glass of wine is still nearly full and tastes good. I assume that whatever you are drinking tonight and choose to belive in, is still, mostly empty, thin, and bitter.

I feel bad that you choose to be bitter about this great country of ours.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:26pm PT
Um, Cragman, you're also disassociating yourself from the rascist comments, might? I mean, you have a problem with that, right?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:27pm PT
Isn't it weird to anybody that this has been going on for 20 years, but just last year Harry Reid broke ground on a Solar Farm on that land and then a month before the confrontation, the Senate approved one of Harry Reid's former staffers as head of the BLM?

Coincidence?

EDIT:
How can you expect us to believe it is anything but right-wing hate propaganda.

Pat Dollard didn't shoot the video, just linked it. Just throwing more info out there that the MSM fails to do.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:30pm PT
I think the subject of federal overreach is valid. But not when it pertains to Cliven Bundy. He has poisoned his well.
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:30pm PT
Supporters of Bundy, Inc. following racist and bigoted, pro-slavery statement are the same.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:31pm PT
Did you race-baiters watch the unedited video????
John M

climber
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:32pm PT
Isn't it weird to anybody that this has been going on for 20 years, but just last year Harry Reid broke ground on a Solar Farm on that land and then a month before the confrontation, the Senate approved one of Harry Reid's former staffers as head of the BLM?

LOL.. now you have to be trolling.

prove it Blue.. what solar farm?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:33pm PT
ok,

I see that the BLM did kill a few, not many, of the cows that were diseased, infected, good

but what property of Bundy's did the Fed "destroy"?

not the land they were grazing on, because that is owned by the Fed government

what property got destroyed of Bundy's?
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:39pm PT
Jim Brennan:

LOL Fluffy,

You presume to know when a laugh isn't on you...

Damn you're fragile!

Anyway I've never paid too much attention to you but I don't remember you saying anything funny so if you're trying for jokes you might want to start there.

Namaste bitch!
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:41pm PT
Bluering, ring, ring?

Per your post?

EDIT:
How can you expect us to believe it is anything but right-wing hate propaganda.


Pat Dollard didn't shoot the video, just linked it. Just throwing more info out there that the MSM fails to do.


The Pat Dollard/The War Starts Here web-site is very interesting.

Is this Site just one site that you happened to Google Clive Bundy up on, or are you fond of his right-wing, anti-gay, racist, retoric?

http://patdollard.com/
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:43pm PT

Did you race-baiters watch the unedited video????

Blue, you are not paying attention. There's no serious debate on either side of the aisle as to whether Bundy is a racist. He has no legitimate defenders. Maintaining your position is not doing you any good.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:45pm PT
Is this Site just one site that you happened to Google Clive Bundy up on, or are you fond of his right-wing, anti-gay, racist, retoric?

I'm actually a contributor there. No Google required.

Ask yourself who googled and edited the original video. No condemnation for them?

John M

climber
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:47pm PT
Blue, proof of solar farm being started?


Here is the video that Blue wants people to watch..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agXns-W60MI#t=45

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:49pm PT
I watched the “unedited” Bundy speech that Bluey linked. I understand what he says. But, he is a racist and a bigot. He doesn’t know this because that is who he is. He’s telling us what he believes and is truthful with his words. He has good intentions, but he is a racist and a bigot. At this point in this crumbling situation, I feel sorry for Bundy.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:58pm PT
what solar farm was started, I must have missed that too?
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 25, 2014 - 12:02am PT
Bluering, Bluering, Bluering

Dear lad, per your mention about you contributing to the far right-wing,racist, anti-gay PatDollard/The War Starts Here Thread:

Apr 24, 2014 - 08:45pm PT

Is this Site just one site that you happened to Google Clive Bundy up on, or are you fond of his right-wing, anti-gay, racist, retoric?

I'm actually a contributor there.

I am so sorry that you have condemned yourself to thinking that America is a bad place, and that your glass is nearly empty and bitter.

America may have some problems, but it is still a great country to live in, and my glass is mostly full and tastes good.




StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 25, 2014 - 12:05am PT
Blue,

I watched the video. Do you support Bundy's perspective on race or not?

Do you think that it is ok to support armed resistance against a case duly tried in the courts of the US and lost? Any cow damage occurred long after due process, so sue the Government over that.

Just trying to understand the reasoning here
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 25, 2014 - 12:08am PT

what solar farm was started, I must have missed that too?


http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/04/16/why-is-us-senator-harry-reid-so-concerned-with-local-nevada-rancher/
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Apr 25, 2014 - 12:11am PT
Crag,, you had better LOOK UP grandfathered WATER RIGHTS and what they mean to grazing rights.

Ron, why don't you explain to us grandfathered water rights, and their connections to grazing rights? And while you're at it, explain to us exactly what rights and interests Bundy held in connection with the land in question and how he obtained those interests?
John M

climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 12:12am PT
That is your proof? Oh mercy Blue.. that whole thing has been debunked. There is not proof in it. It is an opinion piece, nothing more.

Besides which, this whole thing started more then 20 years ago, long before solar even became viable in such a manner..
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 25, 2014 - 12:12am PT
Blue,

I watched the video. Do you support Bundy's perspective on race or not?

Do you think that it is ok to support armed resistance against a case duly tried in the courts of the US and lost? Any cow damage occurred long after due process, so sue the Government over that.

Just trying to understand the reasoning here

I agree that Bundy is in non-compliance with the law, but there's more to it than that...hold on, I'm watching hockey....

EDIT: John M, google it, for f*#k's sake!!!! I gave you a link. Look up others, there are many.




Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 25, 2014 - 12:14am PT
"They never learned how to pick cotton"
John M

climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 12:22am PT
: John M, google it, for f*#k's sake!!!! I gave you a link. Look up others, there are many.

no there are NOT..

all of them come from the same source, which is debunked. This started more then 20 years ago. Long before solar was even viable.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/conspiracy/nevada.asp
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 25, 2014 - 12:23am PT
"They never learned how to pick cotton"


Is that racist? Is picking vegetables racist now too?

EDIT: JOhn, here is one link; http://clashdaily.com/2014/04/icymi-sen-reid-breaks-ground-nevada-solar-farm-near-bundy-ranch/
John M

climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 12:26am PT
He is implying that all blacks are this way and ignoring the many who are successful. He is also ignoring all the people of other colors who are poor and living on government assistance. His attitude is racist.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 25, 2014 - 12:29am PT
Keep the video running, the microphones, too. Keep Clive in the spotlight. Post up, Ron, blue. Best thing that can happen. Shine a light on you so we can all see and hear you.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 25, 2014 - 12:32am PT
John, you missed his point, you fool. Being a slave to the gov't is worse than picking cotton as a productive person. At least cotton-pickers actually produced something valuable.

But it's politically incorrect to say that apparently.
John M

climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 12:38am PT
lots of people don't know how to be productive. The fact that he singles out blacks indicates he is blind to the others. He applauds the mexicans because in his experience they work hard, never mind that there are poor hispanic people who are living on welfare.

He sees things in colors, instead of in economic/life situations. The bible says that the poor will always be with us. He blames the government.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 25, 2014 - 12:44am PT
Who cares what some freeloading white trash dirt merchant in Nevada thinks about anything? In a few days we will never hear about him again. His disappearance has all ready happened every where aside for Fox News and supertopo.
John M

climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 12:46am PT
I'm well aware that Reid supports solar energy..

Its indian land. They can mostly do what they want with it. LA can buy and support projects anywhere they want to, as long as its legal. Aren't you one of those who supports free enterprise?

I don't care for these large solar installations and have never support them. I believe that we should support smaller installations, like on existing buildings.
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Apr 25, 2014 - 12:47am PT
Being a slave to the gov't is worse than picking cotton as a productive person. At least cotton-pickers actually produced something valuable.

Classic! This might be worthy of posting in the office!
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 25, 2014 - 12:49am PT
Blu wrote: At least cotton-pickers actually produced something valuable.


You are a a whack job. They were forced to do it..they were slaves. They were bought and sold.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 25, 2014 - 12:53am PT
De Chief! Ain't what was being discussed. Get on topic or get a life.



We were discussing Clive Bundy fuking the American people out of grazing fees. Of course he lied that his ancestors had been destorying the desert with overgrazing since the 1870's, but it turns out that his family only moved there in the late 1940's, and only had a grazing permit dating to 1954.

Of course that doesn't bother you, since you just want to spew, and are full of excrement as a young pig.



John M

climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 01:00am PT
except it had nothing to do with Bundy..
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 25, 2014 - 01:02am PT
Bundy is a lying, POS, racist cracker. The government didn't force him, he chose it. Quit trying to make excuses for him.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Apr 25, 2014 - 01:30am PT
to quote the chief...

HAAAAAHAAAAAHAAAAA
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Apr 25, 2014 - 01:44am PT
I haven't noticed any unusual 'shetting' lately. but that's your speciality Chief. Your Bundy's just another manifest destiny dumbf*#k. Surprised you throw in with a Welfare queen Chief. No shame I guess.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:55am PT
Why is the Los Angeles Dept of Water and Power being allowed access to land in Nevada to power the city of Los Angeles?

It is called a free market economy. What is your suggestion Chef? Some sort of state run project? That sounds a bit Marxist to me.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 04:57am PT
Feckin shet the Chuff chimes in like a broken record of lies and propaganda. The only thing about this infantile kerfuffle in Nevadastan that involves Harry Reid is that he is the ongoing target of the Koch Brothers disinformation smearing. Tell me Chuffer do you work directly for Koch Industries or are you just a duped simpleton? I appreciate your previous service to this country but now you have descended into madness and disservice to this country. You have become a disgrace and should be ashamed of your self. Trying so desperately to support armed insurrection with any spin available makes you look weak and petty.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 09:36am PT
What did Reid do that is so corrupt?

dirtbag

climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 09:41am PT
That F*#k!!!^^^

He probably eats tortoise soup too!!!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 09:46am PT
What did Reid do that is so corrupt?

He didn't kneel and kiss the Koch Ring.
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Apr 25, 2014 - 09:47am PT
Kos-
What's your trip with Brokeback Mountain?
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Apr 25, 2014 - 09:54am PT
I've been posting to more non-climbing threads, that's why you see me more.
If you actually looked at climbing threads you'd know I've maintained my usual involvement, maybe less.
Don't be so serious, and go climbing.


And Kos- seems more like some juvenile bullshit to me.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 09:59am PT
Hey Ron what is the excuse d'jour for fomenting anarchy?


What this thread proves to me the most, is that there are a lot of disgusting people on Supertopo.

Is the Chief more righteous and polite in your opinion because he uses cute euphemisms like "feck" and "shet" in stead of really disgusting real words? Does the content of a message mater to you or only the delivery??

The Chuff is our resident expert "shet" "fecker".
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 10:01am PT
Jefe is one of the best posters on this site and any uptick in his posting in any form is a welcome thing.

Chaz posted:
They sent the Federal SWAT after this guy, because his cows were eating The King's grass.

They were eating OUR grass and then threatened to use force against anyone who tried to stop him. Sounds like the Feds used force to protect my property which is exactly what you'd be arguing should have happened were this guy dark skinned spouting anti-white drivel while swearing violent jihad if anyone tried to stop him.

Apparently conservatives on this site now believe you CAN use taxpayer resources you are not entitled to so long as you are white. Interesting that not one of his supporters on this site has condemned his insanely racist statements.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 25, 2014 - 10:20am PT
The disgusting thing to me is that for a few weeks this guy was elevated to a conservative folk hero and support for him was expressed be several leading Republican presidential hopefuls.
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Apr 25, 2014 - 10:35am PT
long enough?
You're slow bro.
I snuck that edit in immediately.
Must be the glue...or the ganj.
Go climbing.

edit <-----for slow boy

:-)
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 25, 2014 - 10:44am PT
beat it
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 25, 2014 - 10:45am PT
Not one volt of that power will go to Nevada. Not one. It is all going to... Los Angeles

Chuff apparently doesn't understand that the electrical grid is interconnected. Perhaps the words "Enron" and "Gray Davis" ring a bell? You might also note, Huff-n-Chuff, electrical use is not measured in volts.

Meanwhile, Cliven "The Grand Wizard" Bundy, Professor of Negro Studies at David Duke University keeps digging his hole deeper:

"If I say 'negro' or 'black boy' or 'slave,' I'm not -- if those people cannot take those kind of words and not be offensive (sic) then Martin Luther King hasn't got his job done yet," he added

Yes, please educate us on MLK, you ignurt ass cracker.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 25, 2014 - 10:55am PT

They were eating OUR grass and then threatened to use force against anyone who tried to stop him. Sounds like the Feds used force to protect my property which is exactly what you'd be arguing should have happened were this guy dark skinned spouting anti-white drivel while swearing violent jihad if anyone tried to stop him.

As the great jurist DMT has noted (if I understand him correctly), it's helpful to understand that government grass is NOT "our grass" or "your grass" or "my grass." It's not 1/300,000,000 ours. It's the government's, and you don't own diddly squat percent of it or have the right to do anything with it.

But we do have at least some say in how the government is run by voting, and the government is theoretically somewhat accountable to the people.

The upshot of this is I'm more interested in the apparent federal bungling of this matter for decades if not longer, and which seems to be continuing. It's slightly interesting to me that none of you seem remotely interested in the fact that we seem to have an inept, out-of-control government, which may actually affect our own lives, rather than the fact that there's a kooky old rancher in rural Nevada who is almost certainly in the process of self destruction, which really doesn't.


(DMT may not be 100% right-- for example, there's something called the "public trust doctrine," which may seem to conflict with DMT's rule. But his rule is close enough to being right that it's the best way to think about it.)
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 25, 2014 - 11:06am PT
It's slightly interesting to me that none of you seem remotely interested in the fact that we seem to have an inept, out-of-control government, which may actually affect our own lives, rather than the fact that there's a kooky old rancher in rural Nevada who is almost certainly in the process of self destruction, which really doesn't.

Lolz. So naive, it's almost cute.

Here's the thing - the govt...ANY govt, anywhere is always "inept, out-of-control". If you think this is somehow a new, recent development you must have skipped history class or not been paying attention. Our ability to correct the ineptness of govt is small, slow, and incremental. Conversely, our ability to reign in some scofflaw racist hick is easily accomplished.

It's like digging the Panama canal with a spoon vs. crushing a cockroach with your boot.



philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 11:17am PT
Gee willikers I sure do hope allthem majkill volts of eeeelctrins bein shipt to El A don't hep cleamup they air none. Awldat sonshine gonna make evrbady sew tan weswont noes whota diskrimnate agin


When Sarah Palin and John McCain were "goin' rogue" it was all the rage among right/white wingers. Now the are all a rage because of imagined "rogue" federal agents and other boogiemen.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 25, 2014 - 11:17am PT
Norton...

You REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, SHOULD go CLIMBING!!!...

?

I just climbed onto the toilet

and NAILED the Crux MOVEMENT!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 11:19am PT
Was it an OhCOWpie MOOvement?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 11:20am PT
Ah only clumbs on Cowz n Congreasemen.


None of All AmeriKKKlan Bundy's supporters here have condemned his racist rant. But several have tried to spin it into a positive message. Desperate.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 11:29am PT
Ron posted
Ive watched state rights and sovereignty be degraded and stomped upon. Even our own natl guards are now being disarmed - their weaponry given to agencys such as homeland security- a nefarious agency directly tied to washington

The Department of Homeland Security has ties to Washington? I think we'll need some documentation on that one, Ron. If it's true then I agree with you that it's much better for those weapons to be in the hands of the National Guard which as we all know is a transparent agency controlled by a Department located near the Maryland/Virginia border, not some nefarious Washington DC outfit.

Keep dropping these truths, Ron!
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
Apr 25, 2014 - 11:31am PT
TiannenMOO square: a proud stand for racist 'sovereign' welfare queens in NV

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 11:34am PT
Chuff you are poorly informed deeply delusional and repetitively boorish.

the picture you keep posting has nothing at all to do with Bundy and the BLM.
That is a pic from the ground breaking on a solar farm on Indian lands near Laughlin, Nv.
Not even in the same part of Nevada.
Try getting informed (for real) before sputtering ignorance from your "shet" hole.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 11:37am PT
Holy crap, bravecowboy. That's hilarious.


Chief posted
BLM Land Grabs then selling it off (The Peoples Land) to corporations for what ever private use they wish to do on it.

Had that been the Repub Senator (D Heller) in the photo below, you libs would be screaming bloody corporate greed murder.

The idea that liberals don't call out democrats for privatizing public land is hilariously uninformed.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 25, 2014 - 11:50am PT
Harry Reids comments still burn the arse of every Nevadan here. He is a democrat - that called the states people he represents " domestic terrorists"

Ron, you are aware that Harry Reid was referring only to the armed militia members with their guns aimed at federal employees, right?

Proof that the counter of a gun & ammo store in Nevada is a bad place to make decisions on public policy.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 25, 2014 - 11:52am PT
The American hero Bundy is standing up against the government, who is stealing land from "the people". Oh the irony.....
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 11:57am PT
Bundy and his defenders are insisting that his quotes were "taken out of context." Here is the ful context:

[Click to View YouTube Video]
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 11:59am PT
The Chief posted
Like the land Bundy had his cattle on compares to this destruction...

So it's ok to destroy public land for personal gain so long as you aren't literally strip mining. Got it.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 12:01pm PT
Chief quipped
So do the Koch Bros and all the other Corps that so many here detest.

No actually, many of them don't. That's why we detest them. Turns out you don't have to pay taxes when you write the tax code.


Anyhoo...still trying to shift conversation away from defending a racist thief?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 25, 2014 - 12:06pm PT
The reason they now ARM IRS AGENTS is the plan to use those in similar ways against others as well. Why the hell else would they arm such people?

Uh, maybe becasue there are a growing group of wingnut militia, "sovereign citizen" types out there who are itching for a chance to confront any govt agent with their AR-15s?

Pretty damn simple, numpty. They are arming them for their own protection, against armed, batshit crazy fux like you who want to shoot them for doing their f*#king job.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Apr 25, 2014 - 12:10pm PT
..........................
That is what the fight is about here in Nevada,..............

In reality it's about a bunch of grown up children who don't get things the way they want them.
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
Apr 25, 2014 - 12:30pm PT


philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 12:30pm PT
Ron you can believe what ever you want but you can't recreate truth to fit your delusion.
Point in case; Edward Snowden did NOT sell any US secrets to foreign governments. Nor did he give foreign governments any US secrets. In fact he made NO money at all as he GAVE the info to AMERICAN news agencies
But you will turn a blind eye to any truth that assails your narrative and like the Chief will keep posting misrepresentations and rightwing lies as if repetition will make them truthier..


Irony is how opposed the rightwing are to what they in frothing ranting droves voted for in the first place.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 25, 2014 - 12:43pm PT
When you see trash like Bundy don't you want to grab his turkey neck and just.......SQUEEZE!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 12:54pm PT
No Rong as usual you are Wrong.
Where do you get off assuming you know my stance on NDAA?
Or that I am a blind party hack of the Democrats?
Will you ever acknowledge ever being wRONg?

ANd like I asked earlier, Chief are you on the payroll or just into sucking Koch sauce?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 12:58pm PT
The intent of the now cancelled solar farm was to replace electrical production of an aging coal burning plant in Nevada. The plant in question is considered the dirtiest coal plant in America. The Solar plant would have been a big improvement to the environment.
And gee guess who's financial interests are benefited by keeping the coal plant running?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 25, 2014 - 01:01pm PT
There are a lot of well groomed, pleasant Americans but far fewer thoughtful ones.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 01:09pm PT
What disgusting verbiage Ron?

You mean like "shet" and "feck".
Would you prefer poo poo and scudilypootin?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 25, 2014 - 01:12pm PT
Crag
That's like the kid who takes a crap in the sandbox because he saw the cat do it.....so it must be ok.
Will you sell me some of your incisive brevity? I'll be laughing about that all day.

Ron
so you were a decent, up front, let's talk about this infraction and I won't bust you LEO. Good for you. seriously.
Has no relevance at all to a guy who's had his multiple days in court, has ignored a judgement for 20 years and now is whining about his Big Bad Gov't trying to collect its legal debts. Is thumbing his nose at due process.
And by the way, the Big Bad Feds have not hauled him off in chains. Although I think they should have.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 01:17pm PT
Hmmm so Rong got scolded by the head master and is now suspicious of everyone for being a dirty rat fink. No taking personal responsibility for the content of his words.
So if us stoopid LibTards are so potty mouthed why haven't we been admonished by the powers that be?

Truth has a phunny Liberal bias.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 25, 2014 - 01:19pm PT
From Ron:
edit: and to whomever replied about the arming of IRS agents,, since when do they need fire arms to levy bank accounts.. They used NONE when they levied mine, they simply did it over the internet and my account. And in over 20 years they COULDNT do the same with Bundy?? Anyone believing that should look at my beachfront in Omaha for sale..

I don't agree with Ron on many things, and I don't support Bundy whatsover.
But I've yet to see even a plausible guess addressing Ron's point that the government can levy bank accounts to satisfy judgments.
Why didn't it do that here, rather than launching a crazy, expensive, dangerous paramilitary style operation? (Elcap noted that the only way to actually get the cows off that land is with direct force. I responded that that's true, but if you cripple Bundy's business with standard government debt collection tactics, those cows aren't going to be anywhere for long.)

Maybe there's a good reason, but I haven't heard even a guess as to what it may be. (If it's something like Bundy runs an all-cash business and has no bank accounts or other non-bovine assets, maybe, but that seems far-fetched.)

My guess: crazy, expensive, dangerous paramilitary style operations are probably kind of fun. Remember that government agents aren't spending their own money on any of this nonsense. And unlike climbers who have to spend their own money to engage in our silly adventures, the feds (and their contractors) actually get paid for that stuff! Helicopter round-up time--yeehah!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 25, 2014 - 01:20pm PT
Chief, us military men took an oath to uphold the constitution, protect it, and obey the president.

The right of the federal government to own and control land is clearly spelled out in the constitution.

Keep in mind that this particular document was written under Bush, not Obama. I will provide a link to a great paper.

The U.S. Constitution addresses the relationship of the federal government to lands. Article IV, § 3, Clause 2 — the Property Clause — gives Congress authority over federal property generally, and the Supreme Court has described Congress’s power to legislate under this Clause as “without limitation.” The equal footing doctrine(based on language within Article
IV, § 3, Clause 1), and found in state enabling acts, provides new states with equality to the original states in terms of constitutional rights, but has not been used successfully to force the divestment of federal lands. The policy question of whether to acquire more, or to dispose of any
or all, federal lands is left to Congress to decide.
The initial federal policy generally was to transfer ownership of many federal lands to private and state ownership. Congress enacted many laws granting lands and authorizing or directing sales or transfers, ultimately
disposing of 1.275 billion acres.
However, from the earliest times, Congress also provided for reserving lands for federal purposes, and over time has reserved or withdrawn areas for such entities as national parks, national forests, and wildlife refuges.
The Taylor Grazing Act of 1934 was enacted to remedy the de
terioration of the range on the remaining public lands. This was the first direct authority for federal management of these lands, and implicitly began the shift toward ending disposals and retaining lands in federal ownership. In 1976, Congress formally declared that national policy was generally to retain the remaining lands in federal ownership in
the Federal Land Policy and Management Act.
The “Sagebrush Rebellion” was a collection of unsuccessful state and local
efforts, beginning in 1978, to assert title to federal lands or force their divestiture. It also included efforts by the Reagan Ad
ministration and in Congress to divest of many federal lands, which
also proved unsuccessful.

http://www.law.umaryland.edu/marshall/crsreports/crsdocuments/RL34267_12032007.pdf
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 01:22pm PT



Survival Sir I salute you and thank you for your service.
You have done your Country proud.


What about YOUR OATH Chief?
Or is it more important to be an Oaf Creeper?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 25, 2014 - 01:26pm PT
It took a LOT of pressure by the people to bring this into a more public light
Riiiiiiiggghhhhht.....

like which of the hundreds of other BLM fee paying Nevada or Utah ranchers have stood up for him?
None that I've heard of. They all see him as a tick engorging himself on the backs of the people.
How many of the carpet-bagging "militias" came from Nevada?
Brave of them to stand behind their women and children.

The poseur wannabe patriots are nothing but delusional armed thugs. Constitution? They couldn't understand it even if they read it. Have they read any of it besides the 2nd Amendment? Have they read the Federalist Papers? Nope, didn't think so.
They have in fact been interfering with the Federal Gov't attempt to enforce a lawful claim. Which is of course a felony.
Yeah, the Feds got snookered on this one. The law is patient and has a very long memory.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 01:30pm PT
Irony is that the Law that the right/white wingers are now (thanks Obama) bitchin' about was signed into Law by their Patron Saint and conservative "real" americunt posterboi Runold Raygun.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 25, 2014 - 01:43pm PT
the government can levy bank accounts to satisfy judgments
Let's do a little guesswork and a little math.
We know what Lundy's back fees are. Approx $300K. The gov't figures total with fees and interest it's over $1million. The fees and interest would likely be negotiable. IF Bundy had ever shown any willingness to negotiate, which he hasn't.

So what other assets does he have? 160 acres of melon farm and cattle land out in the sticks. Should the Feds have taken that little ranch and run him and his family off their property and livelihood?
They could have.
(by the way, that IS a little ranch, even here in the Bay area)

So that leaves the cattle. My wild arssed guess is 600 cattle X $2000 per head (a number one of Bundy's supporters on this thread posted very early on) = $1.2 million, MAX. But I read the Feds figured more like $1000 per head at auction. These cattle aren't those doe-eyed TV ad fatties.
And taking the cattle gets them off the trespassed land.

So just which of Bundy's assets should the Feds have tried to take?

If Bundy had a grain of sense he'd have given the cattle to the feds in exchange for his debts. I'm sure he could have worked out an even trade deal. He's just too damned stupid and pig headed for his own good. Digging his own grave and pulling some of his die hard supporters down with him.
You want a Patriot Poster Boy? You'll have to find somebody better than Bundy. Good riddance
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 25, 2014 - 01:51pm PT
Did someone say rat fink?

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 01:53pm PT
edit: Dingus, i manufactured NOTHING. And you certainly didnt "rip" anything apart. Nevada the "shythole as described by many here is 100% with me. From our congressmen to Senators to Governor and legislators


Wow now it's 100% of Nevadastanians support armed insurrection in defense of a common cheat thief and racist AmeriC#&%. Look it up it is a real word. Ron's percentage keeps going up. Wow who knew that Bundy's Bigoted Blunder would be all it took to throw every single resident of Nevada behind the women and children at the Bundy Bunker
Only one leetle ol problemo RongO you are claiming the Nevada Gubmint is 100% behind Y'all in yer fight agin the Gubmint. Is this a double standard or are you sleeping with the enemy?


Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 25, 2014 - 01:57pm PT
Mr Kos writes:

"Maybe because the remedy prescribed by the court involved removal of the cows..."


Who took the case to court? The BLM?
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:01pm PT

So just which of Bundy's assets should the Feds have tried to take?

If Bundy had a grain of sense he'd have given the cattle to the feds in exchange for his debts. I'm sure he could have worked out an even trade deal. He's just too damned stupid and pig headed for his own good. Digging his own grave and pulling some of his die hard supporters down with him.
You want a Patriot Poster Boy? You'll have to find somebody better than Bundy. Good riddance

Bank accounts, farm implements (for those of us fortunate enough to climb at Indian Creek--consider the ranch operation there--they've got all sorts of standard farmer/rancher machines, which aren't cheap), maybe put a lien on the land he does own and use that as negotiating leverage if you want to be nice (and if you don't want to be nice, just foreclose, and Bundy could move to North Las Vegas and make some new friends there).

I don't know what "standard debt collection" tactics were tried, but it's suspicious that we don't seem to get any reports of that.
Maybe there is some good explanation that those tactics couldn't be used here or didn't work for some reason; I'd just like to know.

Agree that anyone who makes Bundy their champion is a fool, but that doesn't mean we can't also take a look at the actions of the feds.

Here's an analogy that I make with full knowledge of the so-called "Godwin's law":
The Soviets did a good job in defeating the evil forces of Hitler in WWII. But I think it's well known that the Red Army didn't always act like perfect gentlemen, to put it ridiculously mildly (it basically raped, murdered, and plundered its way from Russia to Berlin).
Should there be no inquiry of atrocities committed by the Red Army (and other allies) just because the Germans were even worse?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:02pm PT
Mr Kos writes:

"Chaz, if you really want to have a conversation, you'll need to change your ratio of statements vs. questions."



I'll take that as "I don't know", which makes two of us.

I'm wondering now how this dispute ended up in Federal court to begin with. Someone had to sue for something, and I doubt it was Bundy.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:03pm PT
The reason they now ARM IRS AGENTS is the plan to use those in similar ways against others as well. Why the hell else would they arm such people? This -not so far from things going on in such places as N Korea or Russia.
More whacko paranoia.
Promulgated by that idiot Ron Paul (or is he just a blatant liar?)
Explained and debunked here:
http://www.factcheck.org/2010/03/irs-expansion/
In a March 22 interview with Fox Business anchor David Asmam, Rep. Ron Paul said, "Just think about it — 16,500 armed bureaucrats coming to make this program work." Rep. Paul’s wildly false claim appears 3 minutes and 51 seconds into the interview, which Fox posted on YouTube.
Of course this nonsense is in the context of Socialist Obamacare.
In fact, the only IRS employees who are authorized to carry firearms are "special agents," who are sworn law enforcement officers who work on criminal cases. As of last year there were only 2,725 of those, making up just under 3 percent of all IRS employees. So even if thousands of new IRS workers were actually hired, very few of them, if any, would be "armed bureaucrats."
In fact, as previously mentioned, the bill signed into law specifically waives any criminal penalties for individuals who refuse to obtain coverage and also refuse to pay the tax.

So kiddies, do your homework after you listen to Faux News as a large portion of it is drivel. And the rest is Pablum.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:08pm PT
The information about the court hearings is in the public domain Chaz. It has also been referenced and linked on this thread several times.
Your question smacks of disingenuousness. .
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:08pm PT
Philo doesn't know either.

I didn't expect anything intelligent out of Philo. This is just grab-ass for him.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:11pm PT
you all are missing the point here.

it's about proportionality
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:12pm PT
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:13pm PT
blahblah

bank accounts: That's pretty obvious. Do you think the Feds would have made such a big show if they could have taken liquid assets of anything like comparable worth? They're not entirely stupid and have many ways of getting to your cash.

farm implements: see bank accounts, above. Or have a look at Bundy's ranch on Google Earth or on any of the news videos. Decent little place, on the Virgin River, plenty of water (whose water?), couple of dozen acres in watermelons, a few horse corrals, couple of trucks.
So you're suggesting to take his means of making a living?

foreclose: yeah, might maybe get $300K. But run him and his family off their ancestral home? I'd call that a last resort.

taking the cattle made perfect sense from the Fed point of view. their only beef (ha ha) was the non-payment of grazing fees for over 20 years. Take the beef, sell them. Get most of their $$ due and get the cattle off the land they don't want cattle on anyway.
That doesn't make sense?

EDIT:
Chaz, go back to the early pages in this thread. Plenty of links. Including to the 1993 district court decision that denied EVERY one of Bundy's claims.
Or just Google Bundy
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:15pm PT
If you are way behind on your pickemup truck payments they don't repossess your microwave oven.



I hardly count a mellon patch farmed since the 40s "ancestral lands".
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:22pm PT
Maybe because the remedy prescribed by the court called for removal of the cows instead of "crippling Bundy's business."

Weren't you the one just complaining about out of control government?

I gotta tell you blah, you aren't inspiring much confidence in your your knowledge of the law or skills in argument. If you really are a lawyer, maybe it is best that you stay anonymous.

Kos--standard remedy in any commercial dispute is an award of damages (i.e., money). An injunction is generally considered to be more intrusive than a damages award. I have no idea if the BLM was operating pursuant to an injunction, but that is what a lawyer would call a "remedy prescribed by the court" that called for an affirmative action other than an award of damages.
In any event, do you think the removal of the cattle in fact "crippled Bundy's business"?

The events that took place at the Bundy ranch nicely illustrate why damages are the standard remedy, and injunctions are extraordinary (although I don't know that the BLM was acting pursuant to an injunction).

Thanks for your advice to remain anonymous--you should consider that yourself--remember the near panic you reacted with when I told you I looked at your patent (and thus learned your semi-secret identity).

Did you ever ask an HP patent lawyer or agent whether he or she names bosses as inventors on patent applications when they haven't made an inventive contribution to the claimed invention? Oh I forgot--you don't need to; you're an expert on patent law by virtue of being a named inventor on one now-expired patent (that you admit is almost certainly invalid--so good job on that one).

Edit:
taking the cattle made perfect sense from the Fed point of view. their only beef (ha ha) was the non-payment of grazing fees for over 20 years. Take the beef, sell them. Get most of their $$ due and get the cattle off the land they don't want cattle on anyway.
That doesn't make sense?

HT--we can disagree as to whether the Fed collecting debts the way it normally does (garnishment/levy/foreclosure, and in fact negotiated settlements based on the foregoing powers) was more or less reasonable than the paramilitary operation, but I appreciate your polite response.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:22pm PT
Day off from polishing bullets Ron?


Hey Blahblah why don't you do your own research into the court proceedings instead of asking spurious question with which to cast doubts on facts already presented.

Instead of doubt by assumption followed by blatant misdirection why not do some researching then get back to us.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:34pm PT
Hey Blahblah why don't you do your own research into the court proceedings instead of asking spurious question with which to cast doubts on facts already presented.

Instead of assuming do some researching then get back to us.

That is a fair point, expect that my questions aren't "spurious," but rather are what we all should be asking, along with similar questions such as why the feds didn't arrest protesters who were apparently interfering with fed operations at gunpoint. (Oh maybe Kos figured that one out too--he reminded us that lots of crimes are committed everyday, and so it's not reasonable to think that every criminal will be arrested. That must be it.)
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:44pm PT
Blahblah you do seem to be being deliberately thick headed. Have you ignored the fact that the Feds did not make arrests of heavily armed protesters to avoid a potential blood bath.
Would you not commend that restraint on the part of the autorities? Or are you secretely hoping to make the idiotic point that armed militias are the way to stand up to government overreach?
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:44pm PT
Send me a PM, and I'll send you my home address and invite you over for dinner. It's a sincere offer.

Thanks--never been to Temucla so I don't think I'll be able to take you up on it, but appreciate it.
I read your comments as going on an attack mode against me for whatever reason, and I responded in kind--probably a mistake. Each day I post here I try to remind myself not to get personal--many days I fail!

If you ever care who I am, send me PM and I'll tell you, and you'll see I'm who I claim to be (random intellectual property lawyer in Boulder). (But you'll need to give me a heads up that you sent me a PM--they go to an email account I don't regularly monitor.)


Blahblah you do seem to be being deliberately thick headed. Have you ignored the fact that the Feds did not make arrests of heavily armed protesters to avoid a potential blood bath.
Would you not commend that restraint on the part of the autorities? Or are you secretely hoping to make the idiotic point that armed militias are the way to stand up to government overreach?

I will agree with you (even on the thick headed part!) if the protesters are in fact arrested for their conduct. Then I'll admit that it was a good strategy on the feds part: diffuse the situation, then get the people who should be got in due course.
But if there are no arrests related to this incident, you will admit that may indicate that there's something fishy going on?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:46pm PT
Don't worry the NSA monitors it for you.


This is the real fight for patriots and it won't require guns or bloodshed,
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 25, 2014 - 03:05pm PT
But if there are no arrests related to this incident, you will admit that may indicate that there's something fishy going on?
Or that the Feds bungled it? Occam's Razor

Isn't it too bad they backed down? They had the authority to arrest everyone who was preventing them from doing their job. They also had the authority to shoot back if fired upon.
Should they have expected dozens of "militia" men, women and children to load up their weapons and come to the (illegal) defense of a two bit tin horn freeloader?
Rhetorical question: obviously they should have.
They underestimated the armed opposition and backed down without anyone firing a shot. Of course out here in the Wild Wild West we hope every dispute will end up with bullets and blood.

At least they handled it better than Ruby Ridge or Waco.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 04:07pm PT
Ron said
edit: and to whomever replied about the arming of IRS agents,, since when do they need fire arms to levy bank accounts.. They used NONE when they levied mine, they simply did it over the internet and my account. And in over 20 years they COULDNT do the same with Bundy?? Anyone believing that should look at my beachfront in Omaha for sale..


Haha oh god the truth comes out. One angry old white tax evader defending another.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 25, 2014 - 04:15pm PT
The Feds handled it perfect, by the book, no bloodshed, nobody got hurt...

now the Feds can let those guys hang out by the road for days until they get tired and go home to their wimmin, who are also good as human shields, double duty you know

everybody cools down, then the Feds come in at night and round up the cows, off to the
slaughter house to be sold and proceeds used to pay back grazing fees

Bundy goes back to selling watermelons, and has a big lien filed against him

its all over

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 04:21pm PT
Ron posted
Calling me a tax EVADER makes you a loud liar HD. I NEVER EVADED anything in my life. FYI i had an amended return the IRS seems to have failed to take into account, and im STILL awaiting a review of this over a year later. I was promised one in 6 months. So youve taken the ball and ran for a touchdown on the wrong end of the field.. Feel FOOLISH,, you should....

Yeah the IRS helped themselves to your bank account because they know you said mean things about the President.

"Why do the Feds feel like they have to respond to everything with SWAT teams?"

*turns around and peddles arms to people who hate the Feds*
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 25, 2014 - 04:23pm PT
Full video, not the edited version, make up your own mind.

..."let me tell you about the Spanish people"....http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/04/25/infowars-bundy-tape-was-edited-to-exclude-his-pro-black-pro-mexican-comments/
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 25, 2014 - 04:47pm PT
Ya bet ya Dingus. See, when I heard that clip from Bundy (I read it actually) I too wrote if off as "Racist Prick". Now I find out that the news edited the video. Which should surprise no one. I don't think dude is any less of a nutjob, but really dislike being intentionally lied too via omission. I'm use to it from the Government, but the news is kind of hit and miss. This time they missed it. Thus - I pitched out the full version so you and other Supertopoians can examine it in it's entirety and have a more edumacated discourse. I don't consider the full version a "racist defense" as you say, and as it appears you didn't watch it, I guess you don't give a f*#k anyway. But why not be honest and at least try to discuss the facts? The facts in this case being more than a short blurb in the news taken out of a long rant:-) They could have and should have printed it all, and not the single damning sentence that had you, me and about everyone going tsk tsk tsk and seeing racism.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 25, 2014 - 04:59pm PT
Yes, Bill, because the 30min time slot of the evening news should show every single interview they do in its entirety. That would only last...oh, six hours or so.

I've watched the full interviews with this racist tax evading, seditionist traitor. The full interview changes nothing. There is no missing context, no redemption, no "twisting" of his words.

Bundy is racist shithead, full stop.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 05:03pm PT
couch posted [Click to View YouTube Video]

He says some very reasonable things about the "spanish people" at the end. This guy seems like a very kindly, very ignorant guy to me who would be a pretty nice neighbor if he would just pay his grazing fees like a responsible American.


*edit* He'd be an even better neighbor if he would stop wondering if black families weren't better off under slavery.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 25, 2014 - 05:06pm PT
Even the Koch Bros are dumping Bundy
(AFP = Americans For Prosperity = Koch Bros)
A tweet sent by AFP Nevada on April 10 urging followers to read more about the #BundyBattle, which involves Bundy's refusal to pay fines for allowing his cattle to graze on public land, has been deleted. A Facebook graphic that the group posted criticizing the Bureau of Land Management for enforcing grazing laws against Bundy has similarly disappeared.

Previously, the page read: "The BLM spent HOW MUCH to round up cattle? ONE MILLION DOLLARS." As of Friday afternoon, it reads: "This content is currently unavailable"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/25/koch-brothers-cliven-bundy_n_5213481.html
When it comes down to Republican fund raising, Bundy has gone from gold to poison.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Apr 25, 2014 - 05:09pm PT
Remember those ACORN videos with the pimp dude?

Now that was legit!

There you go, goring another mans ox/cow

Rachel Maddow did a great piece about the history of these sovereign-citizen right wing nut jobs. Very interesting history

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal-a/2014_04/cliven_bundy_and_the_posse_com050059.php
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 25, 2014 - 05:10pm PT
Home, home on the range.....where seldom is heard a discouraging word and the skies....
Methinks my childhood romantic images have been skewered.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 05:10pm PT
Conservative political estimates of government expenditures are incredibly accurate so I can't imagine why they would take that down. Don't you remember Obama's $300 million trip to India?
WBraun

climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 05:12pm PT
When it comes down to Republican fund raising, Bundy has gone from gold to poison.

Of course that's how politards work.

If someone is of value to you then your gold.

If someone is not then they throw you away under the bus and run you over.

Politards are despicable people no matter what party they align themselves to .......
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 25, 2014 - 05:14pm PT
Ron, have you thought about doing a little smack dealing? You know, under the table. Guns and ammo on top, smack under. You need to think of your retirement.


Your pal, BK ROC esquire

Bruce.... you are confusing Ron, with a California State Democrat leader...

This thread is classic TACO... tons of hate and poor reading skillz.

WBraun

climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 05:16pm PT
This thread is classic TACO... tons of hate and poor reading skillz.

That statement is gold ......
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 05:16pm PT
Why can't all you as#@&%es learn to stop being such dickheads to each other and learn that the only true way is to be kindly and respectful no matter your differences, sh#t for brains. You're all idiots.

Am I doing it right, Werner?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 25, 2014 - 05:16pm PT
"They learned how to pick cotton".


Thew man is living in the 1800's.

Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Apr 25, 2014 - 05:17pm PT
Yes, Bill, because the 30min time slot of the evening news should show every single interview they do in its entirety. That would only last...oh, six hours or so.

Yes, and no.

Yes because, as you say, one can't fit six hours of video into 30 minutes.

No because, while it is not possible to show everything in that half-hour slot, it is now possible to make vast amounts of background material available on the web.

So, ABC/NBC/Fox/CNN/whatever can run the short version during the evening news slot, and put the whole thing up on their website.

I don't know if that happened in this case, but it certainly could/should have.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 05:19pm PT
Yes, because so long as you acknowledge that "the spanish people" are at least human you can say whatever you want about black folks. Damn the MSM for misconstruing this innocent man's words by playing them verbatim!
WBraun

climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 05:20pm PT
Has anybody asked the cows what THEY want?


They want to be left alone and happily graze in nice pastures and not be slaughtered by all you evil hamburger eaters.

They make nice natural manure so you can replenish the fields to grow nice food stuffs without killing.

You fuking hypocrites talking about the militia people and their potential use of gun violence.

America is the most violent country period on the planet killing everything in its path.

Violence begets more violence.

Stupid all round people .....
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 25, 2014 - 05:31pm PT
Nice post Werner.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 25, 2014 - 05:34pm PT

They want to be left alone and happily graze in nice pastures and not be slaughtered by all you evil hamburger eaters.

Yeah but that's not gonna happen, even if the evil hamburger eaters stop eating hamburgers.
No hamburgers -> no one is going to raise cattle -> they just won't exist.
Rare exceptions aside, their only options are to exist and then become hamburger, or not exist; hard to see a good outcomes for them.
Hard to see a good outcome for Bundy in all this too, I think Reid will get his "pound of flesh" and then some.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Apr 25, 2014 - 05:37pm PT
if only bundy had paid his grazing fees
WBraun

climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 05:38pm PT
No hamburgers -> no one is going to raise cattle -> they just won't exist.

You absolutely have no brain period ......
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 25, 2014 - 05:41pm PT
Truth is stranger than fiction. Hollywood would have a hard time creating a believeable character more reprehensible than Bundy.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 25, 2014 - 05:49pm PT
You absolutely have no brain period ......

If that came from anyone else, I'd probably react defensively and argumentatively.
Coming from Werner, I'll have to reflect on my errors and repent (having no brain, period, it will likely be futile, but it's all I can do).
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Apr 25, 2014 - 06:00pm PT
if only bundy had paid his grazing fees

but why would he pay his grazing fees to a government that he does not acknowledge existing?

hmmm.... wait... does that mean that 20 years ago he did acknowledge the United States Government?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 25, 2014 - 06:02pm PT
America is the most violent country period on the planet killing everything in its path

You might look into a little place called "Honduras".
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Apr 25, 2014 - 06:03pm PT
"America is the most violent country period on the planet killing everything in its path."

Total BS statement! Many countries and civilizations in the past have been just as destructive to people and local environments. I can give you a list if you would like.......

"Violence begets more violence."

Agree!

"Stupid all round people ....."

At least the half that don't believe in evolution and think a god of some sort created everything are........

nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Apr 25, 2014 - 06:04pm PT
or a little farther north like Mexico...
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 25, 2014 - 06:11pm PT
I chicken bus it through Mexico and Honduras and felt pretty safe in both countries and throughout Central and South America.

America doesn't make the top ten safest places to live, no big surprise there.


http://omgtens.com/top-10-safest-countries-in-the-world/2/


But we did make it to top ten here...F*#k yeah America...http://alltoptens.com/top-ten-dangerous-countries-2014/
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Apr 25, 2014 - 06:18pm PT
Werners statement to me also includes killing of animals. highest per capita of veggie/vegan in the US vs. Mexico. carne carne carne...
not to mention the lovely way bullfight cows are slaughtered...

that aside... you can't call werner hypocritical in that statement. he walks the talk.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 25, 2014 - 06:19pm PT
Hell yeah, more guns and less government and we will all be safe
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Apr 25, 2014 - 06:23pm PT
The only redeeming quality to this and the other gun thread is that they seem to be keeping Ron A. off of other threads.... :-)
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 25, 2014 - 06:36pm PT
America...so proud.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/19/us/u-s-school-violence-fast-facts/index.html?iid=article_sidebar


nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Apr 25, 2014 - 07:21pm PT
Chuckcar - thanks for that link. Steven just crushed the whole thing even harder then Jon has been all week.

"you can't pay a country that doesn't exist. Especially with the money that it issued."

"man, Hannity ate up that story so hard Bundy should have charged him grazing fees."
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 07:27pm PT
http://twitter.com/vplus/status/459503240787161088

Bundy went from "I was taken out of context" to "I'm just asking questions" to "this is what I truly believe" in a matter of hours. Also, running to Alex "American citizenship is literal slavery" Jones for your first stop "negroes might have been better off as slaves" defense say a few things about your worldview.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 07:40pm PT
Already beat on this page, son!
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Apr 25, 2014 - 07:46pm PT
I don't think I'm wrong, I think I'm right.

My teacher offers the thought that if you think someone elses opinion is better than yours you should have that one instead.

Problem is the Bundy's of this world and his followers do not go through the work of questioning their own view point. At least in this country they appear to be happy tuning into faux news and being told what to think.

at the end of all of this it will be sad for Mr. Bundy. he will lose on every level. The gov't will kick him off the land. He'll probably never pay the million dollars he owes us. Those that now (or did) hold him in regard as a hero will distance themselves. He won't understand. He's not capable.


He seems like a nice man. But he clearly feels the negro is below whitey.


Oh but hey... that leads me to a climbing story. See... years ago I was in Tacoma visiting my dad and I went to a yoga class in South Seattle - drove my step moms oldsmobile 98 cadillac. classic old gas guzzling boat. anywho.... after class I can't get the thing to start and it's getting dark and i'm by a park where some of those folk that mr bundy knows a lot about are starting to gather.

They don't look like they knew much about pickin' cotton... ahhh.. but I digress. So one of the brothers comes up to me asking what's up with my car. Older man, good heart. first thing out of his mouth after trying to start it was "oh man, someone tried to jack yo car!". I begged to differ but it didn't matter.

funny thing is there was almost a case of really bad wine in the trunk. dude asks if i have beer. i say no, but i have wine. I give him a bottle. then he asks for two bucks for smokes. i oblige.

so... lock smith gets called (key wouldn't turn). "on our way"

and it's getting darker.

eventually a fight breaks out between the older gentleman and a younger brother. apparently they thought I was moving in on their drug turf and were not happy about it.

The conversation between the two starts off, "What the f*#k... what's up with whitey?".

next thing you know they are throwing beer cans at each other and I sort of slink away to the store on the corner for a bottle of water and to wait.

well.. apparently things settled down and the crowd realized my car really was not starting, a locksmith was coming and I wasn't trying to sell $70 3 gram bags in the dark in south seattle all by my lonesome.

right before the lock smith shows up the younger guy walks down to the store and walks up to me and apologizes for assuming. I say it's cool and he walks away. yeah... one of those moments you sort of don't expect until after... when you realize... people are just people.

OK.... what's this got to do with climbing you might be asking yourself by now?

few weeks later I'm climbing in Winslow Wall work on new routes and with my latest I decided "Yoga something" was gonna be the route name. The Doctor quickly points out I should call it "What's Up With Whitey?".

done: What's up with Whitey 11c about 10 bolts.



Edit: i do feel sorry for the older guy. He woke up with a wicked hangover cuz that wine was baaaad.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 07:53pm PT
^^^ Phunny


What's that old Steve Miller song that refrains something like Cow Cow KKKalculater?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 25, 2014 - 07:57pm PT
Nature writes:

"Problem is the Bundy's of this world and his followers do not go through the work of questioning their own view point."



Maybe. Maybe not.

The L.A. Times says he apologized and is asking for forgiveness.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-nevada-bundy-slavery-apology-20140425,0,2611088.story#axzz2zwfCtv4Z
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 08:00pm PT
^^^ Well then I guess all is forgiven eh?
Asking for forgiveness? Why not pay your fees and tell your mob of anarchist troglodytes to unload and get a life. Then we can talk about forgiveness.

Now Hannity and Chaz can go back to ball cupping and grazing.

Cliven is an all AmeriKKKlan Patri-idiot.

Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 25, 2014 - 08:11pm PT
My My! What a day for this thread.

Here's a repost of a Las Vegas Review Journal photo of some of Bundy's cows. Some folks didn't like looking at skinny unhappy cows in a rapidly vanishing mudhole, since it didn't equate with their noble Rancher concept of Bundy.

One small group's conservative hero turns out to be most everyone else's lying, tax-cheating, people-manipulating, redneck, racist.

Cliven Bundy's cows roam the Gold Butte area. Federal authorities will restrict access to almost 600,000 acres of public land for the next seven weeks as they prepare to round up what they call “trespass cattle” in the desert 80 miles northeast of Las Vegas. (F. Andrew Taylor/Las Vegas Review-Journal)
http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/bundy-blm/emotions-run-high-blm-closes-600000-acres-cattle-roundup
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 25, 2014 - 08:12pm PT
In almost all cases people apologize and ask for forgiveness only because of selfish best interests, NOT because they have changed their opinions or are really sorry....except for themselves.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 08:23pm PT
Yes he is "sorry".
A sorry sack of lying cheating racist excrement.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Apr 25, 2014 - 08:26pm PT
He's sorry because someone smarter than him told him he should be.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 25, 2014 - 08:27pm PT
Nice summary Philo but you didn't have to pull your punches.
WBraun

climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 08:27pm PT
Philo

In the future you will make some kind of mistake and ask for forgiveness.

Someone will tell give you the same kind of response that you just gave .....
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 08:31pm PT
Yes Jim I know. But the Cuntservatives here are a real touchy group and get all panty twisted when I say sh#t and f*#k instead of "shet" And "feck" or better still Poo poo and naughty time.


Oh yes Quackman. I just doubt it will be for anything approaching Bundy's transgressions.
And I doubt it will be for mustering armed mobs to incite revolution for illegal cows.
Asking forgiveness for denting someone's car in a parking lot isn't quite the same as mr Bundy's situation.
WBraun

climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 08:32pm PT
Went right over the top of your head.

You are worst then the the people you are ranting against ......
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 25, 2014 - 08:34pm PT
Philo writes:

"Oh yes Quackman. I just doubt it will be for anything approaching Bundy's transgressions."




What *transgressions*? He said stupid things.

You're the only one who's never said anything stupid, I guess.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 08:36pm PT
You are worst then the the people you are ranting against ......
Well at least I have command of the English Language.

No it didn't go right over my head you arrogant twit. It was so irrelevant that it didn't bear serious repartee. You know Werner if you are so damned enlightened then please enlighten us by something other than wasting our time with your inane quips. You are just as "Stupid" of an American as any of US. Guilt by association and all.
So I am worst then the the people...? Chaz I didn't go on Hannity backed up by my militia and American flags and say stupid things. Where you wingnutz come up with your equivalencies is beyond me.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 25, 2014 - 08:37pm PT
Well then I guess all is forgiven eh?
Asking for forgiveness? Why not pay your fees and tell your mob of anarchist troglodytes to unload and get a life. Then we can talk about forgiveness.

Funny how y'all forgot that Harry Reid (senator from Bundy's Nevada) had to apologize for an almost identical statement referring to Obama.

"He doesn't even speak with a Negro accent, if he doesn't want to".

Remember that?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Apr 25, 2014 - 08:38pm PT
Even paying grazing fees is a form of government welfare, since it would cost far more to graze on private land.

That means Bundy himself is a welfare cheat, so by his own words he might "be better off as a slave".
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 25, 2014 - 08:39pm PT
I feel sorry for the guy...he is a product of his environment. He is in deep sh#t and all the people who jumped on his bandwagon are gone.

They are the real as#@&%es for using him like they have.


philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 08:39pm PT
How many head of cattle was Obammy illegally grazing?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 25, 2014 - 08:40pm PT
Philo writes:

"..if you are so damned enlightened then please enlighten us by something other than wasting our time with your inane quips."



Philo, look in the goddamn mirror! That's exactly what you've been doing all f*#king day.
WBraun

climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 08:43pm PT
Bob D. -- "I feel sorry for the guy...he is a product of his environment. He is in deep sh#t and all the people who jumped on his bandwagon are gone.

They are the real as#@&%es for using him like they have."


See Philo.

Even Bob has an intelligent handle on it .......
John M

climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 08:46pm PT
Philo, look in the goddamn mirror! That's exactly what you've been doing all f*#king day.

+1
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 08:47pm PT
Hey Werner I agree with Bob that Cliven was used. Which brings up the bigger issue of the long term intent of the users.
You don't like what I say oh well don't read it.
But to compare the intelligible posts of liberal posters to the frothing lie a thon of conservatives is just quackin' off. Something you seem good at.
Why do you feel it is important to waste your time telling us that we are wasting our time.

John M

climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 08:48pm PT
You don't like what I say oh well don't read it.

what a f*#king dick. Isn't that what LEB use to say?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 25, 2014 - 08:52pm PT
Werner wrote: Even Bob has an intelligent handle on it .......


Backhanded like usual...that is how you Cali boys roll.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 08:54pm PT
Thanks John M. You don't like the way I fight back against the ignoranters I get it. But I have not attacked you so what's your beef? Is it my snarky wit or potty mouth?
Have you ever notice the rightwing SOP? The Chuff came back slinging insult feces like a zoo monkey. Anything wrong there? Over the course of my time on ST I have degenerated from intelligible posts with thought out arguments and cited sources to just saying "shet".
But it was ST that taught me how.

John if you would rather read (without rebuttal) the ranting lies of Chaz, TGT, Bluering, Ron Anderson and the Chief than the snarky humor based rebuttals I post OK by me. Just don't believe I post for your approval.

Regardless of you or any other poster disliking my mean spiritedness the course of history has and will show that those on the right side are on the wrong side of history and that those of us opposing them had every right and duty to do so. When you acknowledge how many Americans are uninformed, misinformed and blatantly led along by too oft repeated lies then you can come to grips with some of our opposition. Opposition using words on a public forum not threats of violence in armed stand offs.

But gee I'm sorry for you that those of us fighting to oppose the liars are such meanies and potty mouths. At least we are not despicable liars.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 25, 2014 - 08:54pm PT
I would love to see more Bundy's around....great entertainment and don't you just love who they embarrass. I also hope the Tea Party wins the war for the heart and soul of the Republican Party.
WBraun

climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 08:54pm PT
Backhanded? What does that mean.

I was praising your well said post .....

And philo ...

It's OK, you'll make it thru the night ....
John M

climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 08:58pm PT
Werner, It was the "even Bob" gets it. As though if someone as dumb as Bob can get it, then surely anyone can.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 25, 2014 - 08:59pm PT
Even Bob....


You could have worded it a little better.

My take...I think Bundy and his like...(Ron, TGT, Chaz) are really what is wrong with this country..they are regressive thinkers. I guess this country has to go in the gutter before we start to climb up again. We are pretty much there...they are going to fight it like cornered rats.

In the long run...progressive thinking will prevail.
John M

climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 09:00pm PT
So Philo, what makes you better then those you despise if you act just like them?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 09:01pm PT
http://m.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/04/cliven-bundy-wants-to-tell-you-all-about-the-negro/361152/#comment-1353603522

CandaceTX • a day ago
It's weird how nobody ever theorizes that white people on welfare might be better off as slaves.

Oh man this chick nails it.
WBraun

climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 09:04pm PT
John M -- "It was the "even Bob" gets it."


Yes that's it except I used the word intelligent.

There was misunderstanding.

And Chaz is not in that group.

There's a lot of impartial observers watching both sides ......
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 25, 2014 - 09:09pm PT
Werner...Chaz wants to blame the government for everything...while never giving credit for bailing out the America people on a number of occasions.

It is pretty simple to me...the line has been drawn...go backwards or go forward.

I'm pushing forward.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 09:09pm PT
So Philo, what makes you better then those you despise if you act just like them?


Uhm how about the truth?
need examples even Werner could grasp?


It's not about "being better" it's about right and wrong truth and lies.
Would you care to say which aspect I present.
When you have to confront the same bald faced lie for the umpteenth time then I'd say dope-slapping is fair means.
John M

climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 09:14pm PT
Philo.. you have become as big an as#@&%e as those you despise.

But gee I'm sorry

Like Donini said.. most people don't mean it.

OH.. and by the way.. stop whining, its embarrassing to be considered a liberal when there are liberals like you.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 09:21pm PT
Awesome post John M witty pithy and on task. Well played sir well played.

I never denied my ability to eviscerate idiot's arguments nor dish out wicked word play.
I also never presented myself as the enlightened one or the one in the know. I just present facts to confront the lunatic fringe on the absurdity of messaging a lie. Damn I am so so bad just like SkipT and LEB and pick another turd out of your ass and name it.
WBraun

climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 09:22pm PT
Chaz wants to blame ....

Yes, this is a very normal human fallibility that everyone of us does at times when we get upset.

Does that make him an automatic govt. terrorist?

NO
WBraun

climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 09:23pm PT
Take it easy Philo

We still love you.

We understand ......
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 09:43pm PT
OK Werner smoke em if ya got em.
It's like this, I believe (and stand by what I've said) that to hose down peaceful OWS protesters with pepper spray was wrong. I also believe that misrepresenting their numbers and denigrating them as dirty anti-American hippies with out jobs was wrong. Those posters on the right of center slammed me for my support and defense of the OWS movement.

In Contrast but with continuity of belief I believe that massing a mob of armed anti-government protesters to "stand down" the federal authorities was the wrong way to redress grievances with the Government. And I believe that Cliven Bundy was the wrong poster boy for elevation to folk hero status. I also believe that supporting their petty insurrection shows remarkable lack of real critical analysis. Those same posters on the right of center now slam me again for my support of the rule of law and grasp of the english language.

Heaven help me if I should use erudition and facts to point out the hypocrisy in their positions.

Hey remember the TeaBaggers other all american poster boy "Joe the Plumber"? Another Faux Folk Hero down the drain.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 25, 2014 - 09:47pm PT
In my view, this matter is mostly finished. Bundy is forced to pay a negotiated fee and goes back to be just another redneck.

He didn't create any militia. They were there already.

It"s important only if it looms into the '16 election. The name "Bundy" won't be one a politician wants to be associated with and could come back to bite Rand Paul and Ted Cruz.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 25, 2014 - 09:49pm PT
Phil...we all suffer/lose with their backward thinking.

The most peaceful country to live in also does not allow handguns to it citizens.


Maybe one day these folks will get it.
John M

climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 09:53pm PT
Those same posters on the right of center now slam me again for my support of the rule of law and grasp of the english language.

philo, I don't blame you for being pissed. I feel pissed too. But when you go on and on and on and take every opportunity to make snide comments, then you just add to the amount of crap out there. You become one of the crap producers. Eventually it just piles up and that is all that we end up with. Who wants to wade through a pile of sh#t to get to whatever truth you say that you have?

so you out snided them.. big deal.

and please don't try to excuse your behavior like Blue and LEB did. "they attacked me first". So what.

And I'm not saying to lay down. I'm saying that you don't need to be snide and shitty at every opportunity given. It means you become just more of the noise that is out there. Is that what you want? to contribute to the noise level? Because that is how have come across lately. Just more of the noise.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 09:57pm PT
Do you understand that by concentrating political discourse to a very few threads like this one we actually keep the forum front page cleaner and more climbing related. Check it out you can thank me later for so effectively drawing the flies to the "shet".
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Apr 25, 2014 - 09:57pm PT

I hope some of you bickering old nannies will appreciate the irony in this bumper sticker.

Ha ha ha
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 09:59pm PT
Do you know what "irony" means?
John M

climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 10:04pm PT
always so timid that they end up hating both sides

you are right Dr. F. I'm timid.. hahaha..



what I hate are people who act like as#@&%es. liberal or conservative.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 10:05pm PT

Yes that's a dead calf he's holding while talking about how Rosa Parks and MLK would support his views on race. This guy is awesome.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 10:05pm PT
Well thank gawd they still have this folk hero.

the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Apr 25, 2014 - 10:07pm PT
Yes, Philo, I do understand "irony" which is why I found this bumper sticker, from my right wing red neck neighbor so ironic.



philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 10:15pm PT
Do you suppose he meant to have an = sign and not a - sign?
That's ironic. :-)
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Apr 25, 2014 - 10:18pm PT
Indeed.

His sticker of the week now says: "Obama: No brains, No testicles"

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 10:19pm PT
But I'm sure he is real polite.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 10:25pm PT
My goodness that Frenchman with all those guns is so well spoken. No cussing or potty mouth he must be a very nice man. How can you argue with such a nice well spoken Frenchman?



Yea this guy RunOld RayGun
Kind of dresses like Bundyboi.


This guy seen honoring the WWII SS Nazi dead.

Nutz never fall fall from the rotten wood.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 25, 2014 - 11:09pm PT
Re Dr. F's post about the NRA convention.

I recieved a call tonight from a lad, who identified himself as calling on behalf of the NRA.

He asked if I was supporting Republican Congressional Representative Mike Simpson in the upcoming election, and started to explain why I should support him. I calmed him down, by explaining my support for Simpson. (I got called, because I am a registered Republican.)

The Tea Party is running & funding a ultra-conservative trial lawyer against Simpson, since despite Simpson's almost always voting with the Republicans in the House, he has been a voice of moderation, and-------shudder-gasp-----voted for the "bailout" and is proud of it, and also was one of the very few Republicans in Congress to vote for the Obama budget last fall.

He's been a marked man by the Koch brothers ever since-------as not conservative enough!.

It is Interesting to see the NRA & also the U.S. Chamber of Commerce supporting a moderate Republican against a Tea Party Radical.

Is this the beginning of the end for the Tea Party?

Hard to tell in Idontno, the most Republican state.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 25, 2014 - 11:13pm PT
Fritz, I too am a registered Republican

I vote in Republican Primary elections

and i vote for the most pure, most extremely conservative Tea Party candidate

thus, I vote for the Republican I want most to face the Democrat in the general election

I consider this my patriotic duty
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 25, 2014 - 11:23pm PT
Norton: You are preaching to the choir!

But my congressional district is 70% LDS, and there is a snowball's chance in Hell of the best Democratic candidate beating the village-idiot LDS Republican Candidate.

I think I have to vote for the lesser evil, who is also not a fool.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 11:57pm PT
About the only way the clown show in Bunkerville could get any better is if Ol Cliven came out for his next Hannity interview in Al Jolson "black Face". He could sing Mammy to ask for forgiveness.
tom woods

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
Apr 25, 2014 - 11:59pm PT
Bundy is perfect.

We have Piketty and the study that shows America is an oligarchy out and in the news the same week some nutjob starts ranting about cows and the gubmint.

Say something crazy, the crazier the better, and we have to respond.
We're taking the bait (so did a few presidential hopefuls so don't feel bad.)



tom woods

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
Apr 26, 2014 - 12:04am PT
Base- I teach history and government and I am fighting against that kind of nonsense. I'm trying to explain the three branches of the Federal government and they tell me about Obama's FEMA camps that will be used to gas American citizens.

They are being taught elsewhere, and it's nuts.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 12:08am PT
Tom that's why it's imperative that we fight the lies and obstructionism of the political Right even if when we resort to ridicule and shaming.
History will condemn complacent silence much more than rough language and dogged resistance.
tom woods

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
Apr 26, 2014 - 12:18am PT
I'm trying, but people who know everything already are hard to teach.

You think Cliven Bundy wants to hear all these facts about slavery, like this http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/sojtruth-woman.asp, or http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/collections/voices/vfssp.html#FountainHughes.html

Check out Fountain Hughes- he rants like a standard old man, then says that if he ever went back to being a slave he'd blow his brains out.

You think people like Bundy actually want to read the constitution? Supreme law of the land and everything? General welfare clause?

Don't get them started on the civil war unless you're wearing a helmet. I have these people in my family, it's not worth the trouble. It's an illness.
WBraun

climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 12:27am PT
they tell me about Obama's FEMA camps that will be used to gas American citizens.


That made me laugh out loud it's so funny.

I know it's not supposed to be funny and stupid that anyone would say or believe this.

But it still cracked me up ......
tom woods

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
Apr 26, 2014 - 12:39am PT
It's crazy Werner. People believe the strangest things.

I'll say one thing about being a teacher, it ain't boring.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 26, 2014 - 09:57am PT
Ron is a repub?

Whoa, hold the presses! Call the news outlets! Shocking headline!
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 26, 2014 - 09:58am PT
Ron...the town jester of ST has spoken.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 10:05am PT
How bout this Locker, when it comes to actual action the "progressive dems of america" are ALL MOUFF an NO action? If the people on this thread are samples of democrats, then im going to re-register republican.

Ill bet half of those "9" were homeless folks they paid ten bucks to-- to hold signs..

What's there to protest?

We won.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 26, 2014 - 10:09am PT
Who the hell are the Progressive Dems of America?

never heard of that outfit

so, what?

some guy makes up a name and calls some friends to protest something and because this bundy thing is so over only a couple show up

and all of a sudden this makes me want to register, again, as a Republican?

someone explain the logic to me?
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 26, 2014 - 10:23am PT
I think Ron and the Oaf Keepers should do whatever they can to keep this issue in the public eye. Make it an election issue. Demand that the Republican's stand with you! Don't let them keep their extremist aunts & uncles locked up in the root cellar, get them out into the light of day. Maybe they could provide security at the convention.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 10:27am PT
Hahahaha Dr. F.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 26, 2014 - 10:45am PT
Climbing related,

Wearing a 5.11 shirt (RR's brand)

[Click to View YouTube Video]
dirtbag

climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 10:45am PT
Locker
ron already told us, it's not about bundy

It's about the Out of Control Government!!

So in other words, none of these clowns will apologize for their transgressions, because they just moved past it into their new fake out rage already,
and it's somewhat related to bundy, so the transition was seamless

These people will NEVER admit that they were wrong, NEVER
and
Never look Back!


Republican politicians and talking heads who backed this nonsense won't be able to wiggle away so easily.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 10:48am PT
TGT, you're an idiot.

You scared little man, scared of world that's changing, a white power structure that's changing.

dirtbag

climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 10:55am PT
To all
dirtbag

climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 10:55am PT
the right wing
dirtbag

climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 10:56am PT
you can
dirtbag

climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 10:56am PT
KISS MY ASS: post #3000 is mine.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 11:07am PT

And continue to proliferate their insistent political hate towards anyone that counters their political ideology.
Is that not exactly what you do? And your asinine assertion that I or other progressive thinkers would be outraged if it were a Republican breaking ground in your photo is as absurd as you are. I would support (and vote for if I could) virtually any Republican that would flip the bird to Adelson and the Kochs in favor of renewable clean energy. You LOSE LOOSER!



Chuff n Puff you still repost the same pictures that have been shown to have NOTHING to do with any of this. Is being a deluded liar all you've got?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 26, 2014 - 11:09am PT
KISS MY ASS: post #3000 is mine.

nice work, dirtbag!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 11:16am PT
Yes I would have a problem with that.
I am advocating for sustainable green energy not more of the same status quo fossil fuel foolery. You I think would cheer it.
Your false equivalencies are akin to me asking you; So in the next couple of months or years the Taliban kills a herd of American soldiers with snipper fire you'll be cool with that because they were bearded men with guns.
Pull your cranium out of your transverse colon son. There look no potty mouth or naughty words.
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
Apr 26, 2014 - 11:18am PT
Funny Chief, I feel like I hear a lot more discussion of shooting human beings "DCM" and shet from someone like.....you?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 11:27am PT
Chuff if that's what you got out of DrF's post then you really are the dumbest sack of excrement on the forum. Go play with bearded men LOOSER.


The Keystone pipeline is being actively opposed by real people with brains notb tou soldiers with bullets. You are a supporter of the Keystone pipeline aren't you/



Ron won't answer Locker because he can't. He will come back and repost yey another debunked lie as a distraction. Here let me help him out.

Ben Ghazi, Ben Ghazi BEN GAHZI BEN GAHZI
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Apr 26, 2014 - 11:31am PT
I thought that Ron and the Chaff are the same person?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 11:33am PT

How about I help you out Philo!


DRF says it's ok for the feds (BLM) to sell the peoples land to the Koch Bros for the Keystone Project

No he did NOT. He said the BLM sells land as part of what they do. Show me anywhere he used words to infer support of selling BLM land to the Kochs. Your logic wouldn't pass muster in elementary school debate class. The voices in your head must be deafening.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 11:38am PT
^^^
i don't see a single mention of the Koch's in DrFs post.
Where do you get the "Shet" you make up?
Never mind.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 26, 2014 - 11:43am PT
chief,

correct me if I am wrong but, I do not think an individual US Senator has the authority
to approve Federal land sales

I believe that is vested within the BLM?

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 11:51am PT
SO this isn't about some Americunt racist rancher and his welfare cows but about Harry Reid and the Koch Brothers desperate fight to subvert the American political process and run him out of town.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 26, 2014 - 11:52am PT
Chief...please provide links for accusations.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 11:54am PT
There are no legitimate liknks Bob. Since the GOP slashed funding for VA benefits Chuff is left with only the voices in his head to talk to and argue with.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 11:57am PT
No links upthread Chuffer. Just your absurd connections.





How about this for a living arangement Chuffles?


Or should we send in the bearded killers to round up and execute these tree hugging eco terrorists? I mean look what they did to these perfectly good buildings.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 26, 2014 - 12:07pm PT
The government can't "grab" its own land.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 12:10pm PT
But the Chuff can perform his own reach around ball cupping.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 12:12pm PT
Okie Dokie mirrorman.

So an unrelated case from 2002 is your smoking gun that justifies current and future events?
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 26, 2014 - 12:24pm PT
Why shouldn't it proceed?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 12:39pm PT
Answering your question the Chief I don't have enough relevant information about the "green energy" solar project you reference to make an assessment of the project's viability. But unless otherwise informed I see no particular reason to oppose the project. You however do seem pretty opposed to this project. Perhaps you will elucidate for us LibTards.


Now I have a question for you the Chief.
How many of those battles for access and other battles you fought single handedly against the overreach of Government did you wage by threat of armed resistance?
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 26, 2014 - 12:40pm PT
Not to get all constitutional, but the government can't take land away via statute. It must do so through condemnation. Someone cite the "legislation" providing otherwise.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 12:46pm PT
Philo, DRF, and many others towards anyone(Ron, Blue, TGT, Bookworm etc) on Super Topo that does not align themselves with their position.

And you Mirrorman are as innocent of transgression as Benedict Arnold.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 26, 2014 - 12:57pm PT
The Chief....I'm in the Vons parking lot waiting for a lift to Clarks...Quit dicking around and get your short ass up here..! rj
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 26, 2014 - 12:59pm PT
Is there a brain rotting disease endemic to the Eastern Sierra?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 01:06pm PT
Wow. And you have the audacity to call me out as disrespectful ekat. Never once doing the same to the prevailing hate posters here.

Wow is right. Hard to believe you could post that whopper with a straight face.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Apr 26, 2014 - 01:09pm PT
wow... now eKat is calling Chuffer out? that's big. almost worth ungreasing his stupid ass just to see the drivel. oh... wait.. ask ekat noted it's been deleted. f*#king coward.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 01:13pm PT
Here is another anti-Christian Hate monger for the Chief.




It's not hate Chuffles it's ridicule. Google it.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 26, 2014 - 01:23pm PT
Here's the Chuffster fighting one of his, "many other battles I assisted fight against the gov't to open or keep areas opened so that climbers and all others can enjoy their land."



Proposed Rule: Endangered and Threatened Wildlife and Plants: Endangered Status for the Sierra Nevada Yellow-legged Frog and the Northern Distinct Population Segment of the Mountain Yellow-legged Frog, and Threatened Status for the Yosemite Toad
Document ID: FWS-R8-ES-2012-0100-0001 Docket ID: FWS-R8-ES-2012-0100
Comment ID: FWS-R8-ES-2012-0100-0202

Comment:

This is totally insane. Not are you going to cease the access of fisherman and backpackers that have a long standing heritage, but you will be shutting down several business that have been operating for decades in the area, by this action. The town of Bishop and Toms Place depend on this recreation for their summer livelihood. By imposing these actions and restrictions, you will threaten many businesses in town and that of Toms Place that depend on the access and fishing recreation in these areas. Wrong Wrong and more Wrong. You folks just do not get it. Rick Poedtke Bishop, CA

Note the only edit I've done here is to remove Chuff's street address from the comment as a courtesy, given I wouldn't want my own street address plastered on the 'net.

Quite the battle you're waging there Chuff. I'm sure the land managers are convinced by your persuasive powers of argumentation...argumentation that does not address anything about the proposed rule other than whining about the $$$ effects it may have on your side job. No addressing the science or actual event, but that's how you roll.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 01:33pm PT
It's clear the whole OhCOWpie MOOvement and the kerfuffle in Bundistan is an extension of the O.D.S. (Obama derangement syndrome) that has grabbed and tugged the right-wingers by the short curly ones. This insidious effort is directly funded and promulgated by some really sleazy anti-American Billionaires who want the whole pie for them selves.
Chuff and Rong and the gang are dutiful soldiers in a war against America for the enriching of the 1%.
March on Brothers in smarm.



Here is an interesting story for disscussion.
http://m.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/man-gun-causes-scare-during-childrens-baseball-gam/nfhJS/
Batter up...
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 26, 2014 - 01:40pm PT
The peoples land is just that....for all of the people, not just for private landowners. Right wing fanatics (those words go hand in glove) want public land to become private land....their private land to rape and pillage to their hearts delight.

Well....clearing in Yosemite, going climbing....good idea for everyone on this thread.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 01:43pm PT
I'd love to go climbing but I am waiting for the parts to arrive so I can repair Jello's electric wheel chair. Glad he has insurance at this time in his life. Thanks Obama Care.


And again for the thick headed, No Chuffie I don't endorse those rape and run projects of the extractive mineral industries. I am opposed to burning coal or splitting atoms to boil water. I encourage the development of clean renewable energy. Got that?
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Apr 26, 2014 - 01:44pm PT
The trolls are stampeding this thread, time to steer it back on track.



[Click to View YouTube Video]



Did someone say troll?


[Click to View YouTube Video]
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 01:48pm PT
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
Apr 26, 2014 - 01:52pm PT
^it might have something to do with the aims of the respective movements, eh, Philo?

Bundyites nearly incite a firefight in the name of keeping his cattle and cementing his right to continue ranching on the same barely productive land, while occupiers sit for: reduction in the influence of corporations on politics, more balanced distribution of income, more and better jobs, bank reform (especially to curtail speculative trading by banks), forgiveness of student loan debt and alleviation of the foreclosure situation. But that's just Wikipedia's take on it.


I think that the BLM could have pulled some less-than-lethal tools into the mix and gotten a pretty hilarious result out of the Bundistan thing.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 26, 2014 - 01:56pm PT
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 01:56pm PT
I answered that question a few post ago.
And I have no interest in your other thread.
I live in the progressive state of Colorado not the repressive land of Dumbf*#kistan.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 02:03pm PT
And how is Colorado's open carry status relevant to anything being discussed here?
And why do you surmise they make the exception for the city of Denver?

http://m.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/man-gun-causes-scare-during-childrens-baseball-gam/nfhJS/
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 02:08pm PT
Boulder Colorado is the National headquarters for both Celestial Seasons herbal tea and Soldier of Fortune magazine. Inclusive, diverse and progressive. Jealous?




Your "progressive" state has one of the least stringent gun laws in this nation.


And has suffered some of the worst gun related tragedies in the Nation.
Are you trying to make a point?
Other than between your ears do you even have a point?
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 26, 2014 - 02:10pm PT
I thought the issue was an armed militia inspired by a racist deadbeat subverting the rule of US law. It is pretty clear that several people here support that.

I don't.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 02:14pm PT
For the last time I don't give a rats ass about your other whining crap fest thread.

thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
Apr 26, 2014 - 02:16pm PT
Absolutely RIGHT I am going to fight the Gov't, regardless the entity

Prepare yourself for Chuff's revolution, let's hope he picks a more tractable target than the BLM, something like, say, the Bishop public works dept.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 26, 2014 - 02:27pm PT
NOT the gov'ts land.

I strongly doubt that the Supreme Court will ever entertain that fantastical challenge.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Apr 26, 2014 - 02:31pm PT
....





Over 3000 post...and it still stinks on both sides..
But the biggest pile ..is coming from those who defended Bundy.









....
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 02:32pm PT
The Chief
There are so many of us Vets that know how the Gov't works and are now doing all they can to minimize what they are capable of doing.
Including their ability to take away the rights of all people and their freedoms to access their land AND guns.
NOT the gov'ts land.


Appears to be working rather well in the "progressive" state of Colorado which has one of the least stringent open carry laws in the Union.


SO by saying "working well" are you voicing support for the bloodbath gun slaughters in Our schools and theaters? By following the faulty logic you employ that would be the only conclusion conceivable.
John M

climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 02:32pm PT
Isn't the land in the picture you keep posting of Reid with a shovel reservation land?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 02:33pm PT
Don't confuse him with the facts of reality John M it only makes him "feckin shetty".

And Chuff the State of Colorado is one State in the Union of 50 States that make up the United States of North America, aka The Fed.
I am a Resident of Colorado and a Citizen of the USA.
And what about you Chief, what are you?
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 26, 2014 - 02:37pm PT
The Supreme Court is the Government. See how that works? If you have enough guns, you can do whatever "you" think is right. Not sure that is what the founding fathers had in mind.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 02:48pm PT
^^^ What and risk being labeled a mooching taker by TeaBaggers and their !%er puppet masters.







One must learn to choose battles wisely cuntroacher.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 26, 2014 - 03:07pm PT
Chief....run for office and then change the laws/rules.

It is how it works in this country.








Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 26, 2014 - 03:12pm PT
For Chief.

" Short man syndrome really does exist, Oxford University academics have found, after a study showed feeling smaller makes people paranoid, distrustful and scared of others.

Scientists used virtual reality technology to reduce the height of volunteers travelling on a computer-simulated Tube train by 10in (25cm).

The experience of being shorter increased reports of negative feelings, such as being incompetent, dislikeable or inferior.

It also heightened levels of mistrust, fear and paranoia. Height-reduced participants were more likely to think someone else in the virtual train carriage was deliberately staring, thinking badly about them, or trying to cause distress.

Researchers believe the findings demonstrate the psychologically detrimental effect of experiencing social situations from a position closer to the ground."
John M

climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 03:12pm PT
Oh good grief.

Its NOT BLACK AND WHITE..

every situation has its own answer. I dislike some things the government does. Others I appreciate. the reason I asked if the land in the picture the Chief keeps post was reservation land is because if it is, then it is the tribes decision of what they want to do with the land. Just because Reid is there helping/pushing them to lease their land for a solar installation doesn't automatically mean that he was trying to take the land Bundy was using for a solar installation. Its NOT AUTOMATIC . And if it is reservation land, then I have no to little say in what is done with it.

So enough with the black and white thinking. I support SOME solar, but mostly smaller installations, therefore I could be against Bundy abusing his privileges, but also against the Solar installation over on the east side, though at this point I haven't looked at it.

So please.. stop with the black and white thinking.

Even though the Chief appears to be against anything the Feds do, I don't believe that that is true, anymore that I am against everything the FEDs do.

But Chief, you are lumping too many things in together which makes you appear to be against everything federal.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 26, 2014 - 03:13pm PT
Philo:
I am a Resident of Colorado and a Citizen of the USA.
And what about you Chief, what are you?

Time for a little legal terminology lesson:
You are actually a citizen of Colorado as well as a citizen of the US.
It's not wrong to say you're a resident of Colo., but nevertheless, you are a citizen of Colorado, which had significance that is separate from your being a citizen of the US. You are not a citizen of any other state (although you are a citizen of the US).
See the US Constitution:
Article XIV
1: All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

In a practical application, this comes up in the diversity jurisdiction of the federal courts. A common basis for federal court jurisdiction is that the plaintiff and defendant are citizens of different states (along with other requirements).
This wouldn't make any sense if we were all just citizens of the US and not citizens of our respective states.
You can read more about it here if you care: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity_jurisdiction

I suppose you could say that state "citizenship" is just another legal term for "residency"--that may be be, but the legal terminology is in fact "citizenship."
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 03:18pm PT
"Defend the Constitution from enemies, foreign and domestic".

And how does your current "Might makes Right" stance jive with this oath?
Show how any of Reid's actions are unconstitutional and worth taking up arms against America.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 26, 2014 - 03:31pm PT
Chief likes biting the hands that fed him for 24 years.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 26, 2014 - 03:33pm PT
hey Blah Blah, I see you are from Colorado as well. No one answered my question " If you pointed your gun at a cop what would happen?"

what would happen? Anything different state to state?

I don't have any special insight to answer that question, but I don't see why there would be any significant difference from state to state.
My guess is that there's good chance that you would be shot, although that would depend on the circumstances and the attitude of the responding cops. If you weren't shot, I think you'd certainly be arrested and prosecuted to the "full extent of the law."

There have been at least several high profile cases over the years of cops in Colo. shooting mentally disturbed kids armed with knives--if you give a cop an excuse to shoot, at least some of them will take it.

I'm deeply suspicious of the narrative that the Bundy "protesters" were in fact pointing guns at cops in light of their not being shot and/or arrested.
One theory is that the BLM cops were strongly incentivized to minimize arrests in order to avoid the inevitable inquiries into their own behavior that would follow.

OK I'm out to enjoy the day--you all try to stay out of shet and feck's way as much as possible!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 26, 2014 - 03:49pm PT
One theory is that the BLM cops were strongly incentivized to minimize arrests in order to avoid the inevitable inquiries into their own behavior that would follow.

seems like a pretty weak theory to me.

more likely the BLM cops were ordered by their Commander to leave without confrontation
purely as the "common sense" thing to do, and not for any fear that something, anything, in their own behavior might maybe come to light if they did not

just weak, not saying YOU think that way Blah, just others who came to that conclusion
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Apr 26, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
OK I'm out to enjoy the day--you all try to stay out of shet and feck's way as much as possible!

and what a great one it is here in The Bubble. Let's grab a beer sometime!
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
Apr 26, 2014 - 04:31pm PT
Here you go Bruce: http://www.gjsentinel.com/news/articles/prank-may-8232land-man-8232in-prison From 4/24/14's Grand Junction CO news...


A man who said he pointed a toy handgun in the face of a police officer as a Halloween prank may end up in prison over it. Patricio Preciado, 29, faces anything from probation to six years in…

But he was brown after all, and we know that that is just as bad or worse than poor in the eyes of the justice system.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Apr 26, 2014 - 04:34pm PT
i'm surprised it didn't turn into a gun fight. because if there is one thing I'm certain of it isn't the BLM that was hoping that shots would be fired.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 05:44pm PT
The Chief attempted to quip
Your "progressive" state has one of the least stringent gun laws in this nation.

Nice "progressiveness".

Vermont has rather liberal (loose) gun laws as well. What's your point? And does that point have anything to do with using guns to protect the ability of a racist rancher to steal from the American people?
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Apr 26, 2014 - 05:51pm PT
Sad isn't it, day after day the only relevancy these far left wingnuts can find is in jerking each other off and then ganging together as school yard bullies on the pages of this forum. I find it telling that when their opposites, such as The Chief or Ron, poke them back with pointed sticks they cry foul.

EDIT: WTF is that below Werner, a protest against global warming?

WBraun

climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 05:55pm PT
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 26, 2014 - 06:40pm PT
Quang Duc was protesting the persecution of Buddhists by the South Vietnamese government led by Ngô Đình Diệm. Photographs of his self-immolation were circulated widely across the world and brought attention to the policies of the Diệm government. John F. Kennedy said in reference to a photograph of Duc on fire, "No news picture in history has generated so much emotion around the world as that one."[3] Malcolm Browne won a Pulitzer Prize for his photograph of the monk's death. [4][5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_%C4%90%E1%BB%A9c
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 26, 2014 - 06:55pm PT
I'm deeply suspicious of the narrative that the Bundy "protesters" were in fact pointing guns at cops in light of their not being shot and/or arrested.
One theory is that the BLM cops.......
...had plenty of advance information on what they were getting into, were well drilled in rational rules of engagement with armed civilians. Had a plan and were disciplined.
You can bet they were under instructions to not escalate the situation and if anyone fired the first shot it wouldn't be them.
They've been working on this since Ruby Ridge and Waco.

Too bad we don't ensure our local cops are up to the same standard of training and discipline.

Chief
what was your opinion of the Vietnam War when is was going on? Were you even old enough to have an informed opinion? Were you even old enough to be drafted like some of us Old Geezers?
There's plenty of blood on JFK and LBJ's hands.

If you bother to read your history in an unbiased way, you'll see that both JFK and LBJ had great reservations but the Right Wing Whackos in the Pentagon convinced them to carry on. That damned fool Curtis LeMay wanted to nuke North Vietnam. So did Senator/Pres Candidate Goldwater. At least JFK and LBJ resisted the nuke cowboys. Don't forget it was JFK who kept his finger off the button in the Cuban Missile Crisis.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 26, 2014 - 07:05pm PT
So where is the pointed gun? Hear any gunshots?
That's precisely what's called constraint in face of extreme provocation.
you're pathetic
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 26, 2014 - 07:05pm PT
Bad weather in Yosemite so I went for a three hour hike, came back and you guys are still at it......careful, you may get fat. Philo is immune because of his high metabolisim.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 26, 2014 - 07:09pm PT
only three hours?
y'er backsliding!
Or was that your roundtrip time from YW to Yosemite Point?
;-)
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 07:28pm PT
Apparently The Chief thinks that Cliven Bundy is Ho Chi Minh.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 26, 2014 - 07:31pm PT
Worked this morning, went for a run, did some gardening, chatted with my neighbor - poor thing's dad died last week and her pup has cancer, now I'm off to belay some kids learning how to climb. Just thought I'd stop in the check the weather on Planet Ugly.

Pretty sunny here.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 07:33pm PT
The BLM just B-52'd a pregnant lady in Nevada!
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 26, 2014 - 07:39pm PT
Chief
I'd still like to hear your thoughts about the Vietnam War since you were so quick to condemn it.
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Apr 26, 2014 - 07:42pm PT
Chimp is still flapping his cyber-gums

zzzzzzzzzzz
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 08:00pm PT
As it pleases the rest of us as well.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 26, 2014 - 08:00pm PT
And here I totally thought Ted Bundy was dead.

With Nevadans, it can be hard to tell one way or the other sometimes.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 08:05pm PT
Ron why don't you answer Locker's respectfully asked question?
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 26, 2014 - 08:06pm PT
Ron: Great! Clive Bundy apparently has a black bodyguard that would "take a bullet for him" too. (A direct quote from the bodyguard).

It still doesn't change what he said on video, when he wondered if blacks would be better off as slaves.


Speaking of Kennedy & Johnson and the Vietnam war, I grew up in a Republican Household with a sense of humor. (Something that has apparently been lost in the Republicans of late).

One quote I remember from my mother was:
Democrats start wars, but Republicans start depressions.


Aren't we lucky to be living in a time when a Republican President could start both a war and a depression?

Something to tell the grandkids about in the future!

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 26, 2014 - 08:06pm PT
I have no thoughts other than it was initiated and escalated by TWO Democratic Presidents
right you are.

Fritz
funny! or actually, not so funny, just true.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 26, 2014 - 08:24pm PT
Perhaps if Truman had entertained Minh's petition to the US in 1947 to help negotiate Viet Nam's independence from the French things might have turned out differently.

But in the end, the 57,000 Americans (oh, and over a million Vietnamese) who died in that war did not die in vain.

Never again would a Democratic president involve our country in a decade long defeat in the third world, driven by false premises and a complete misunderstanding of the region, nor employ such a war for political gain.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 08:26pm PT
But the Neo-Con Republicans started two and wanted more.






Ron why won't you answer Locker's respectfully asked question?
John M

climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 08:31pm PT
start… is the operative word Chief..

and Obama was never going to be able to close gizmo because there is nothing one can do with many of those prisoners..
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 26, 2014 - 08:32pm PT
Below the satire line.
John M

climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 08:36pm PT
Chief, I Never heard you say word one about starting gitmo or afghanistan.. so you words mean nothing now.
John M

climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 08:38pm PT
so then you have no say in there continuance…
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 08:42pm PT
Wow that was elaborate.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 26, 2014 - 08:42pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
John M

climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 08:45pm PT
don't wash yourself clean Chief. You toss as much hatred..
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 08:47pm PT
Ridiculing those who's ignorance keeps them from grasping facts is more like it.

Yep I've never posted a single bit of climbing content.
How many TRs has the Chuff posted?
John M

climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 08:48pm PT
they of course are all justified in their continued hate


nonsense. Many on this forum have asked them to dial it back.
John M

climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 08:49pm PT
Yet you continue also…
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 08:51pm PT
Except for Locker I just ridicule him for phun.
Locker you never responded to my snarky crocodile comment I'm hurt.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 26, 2014 - 08:52pm PT
LBJ on the 57 civil rights act

“These Negroes, they’re getting pretty uppity these days and that’s a problem for us since they’ve got something now they never had before, the political pull to back up their uppityness. Now we’ve got to do something about this, we’ve got to give them a little something, just enough to quiet them down, not enough to make a difference. For if we don’t move at all, then their allies will line up against us and there’ll be no way of stopping them, we’ll lose the filibuster and there’ll be no way of putting a brake on all sorts of wild legislation. It’ll be Reconstruction all over again.”


philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 08:55pm PT
TGT shows it's good to progress.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 09:00pm PT
TGT- I know you love that quote but it's entirely unsourced and almost assuredly invented to discredit the man who pushed for the Civil Rights Act. If you do even the tiniest bit of research you'd find that LBJ worked really hard from a fairly young age for civil rights. When he assumed the presidency he also insisted that literally nothing would be signed on his desk until the Civil Rights Act was. But thanks for papering over your own bigotry with some "you know who the real racists are?" sideshow. Here's a protip: real not racists call out Bundy on his racism instead of trying to shift the focus to someone else.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 09:08pm PT

But here is a verified photo of your dear departed demi-god Reagan laying a wreath in tribute at the tomb of Nazi SS troops.

Classy with a capital ASS.

All Americunt.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 09:10pm PT
A health care reform act that was drafted by a republican.

Got shet"?


What HATE? There is no hate just ridicule.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 09:10pm PT
Christ. Take this to the Republicans thread. This thread is for mocking people who get mad about people collecting food stamps but are willing to form a Shield of Women to hide behind to defend a rancher who stole $1 million from American taxpayers.
John M

climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 09:11pm PT
Chief, what about what TGT posted? Isn't that hateful? Or do you just ignore it?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 26, 2014 - 09:11pm PT

and don't forget that it was President Roosevelt, another Dem, that "got us into WW2"

and look at all the money and lives lost because that Democrat made a bad decision
oh wait, we were attacked, remember Pearl Harbor?

oh wait, wasn't it Republican Bush who invaded Afghanistan, who did not attack us

and then invaded Iraq, who did not attack us

and cost thousands and thousands of US servicemen lives, three trillion dollars
and hundred of thousands of civilians dead and left homeless

so hard to figure out all the variables, attacked or not, Dem or Rep President ...

instead of all that thinking, why not blindly spit out partisan "talking points?


this thread is not about wars or who served in the military, it is about Bundy

why hijack it?

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 09:11pm PT


philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 09:14pm PT
Can I "shet" it out do you suppose?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 09:15pm PT
Someone is deleting posts.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 09:16pm PT
Clearly Chuff don't get it.
John M

climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 09:16pm PT
He was being sarcastic Chief..
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 09:24pm PT
Am I really the big kahuna of hate here little man?
You are a delusional fruit cake that needs professional help sooner than later. But I don't HATE you.

And to correct your lame interpretation I think Reagan was a tyrant and a disaster. I think of him as the worst president America has ever endured.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 09:27pm PT
Turn off AM radio for a start.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 09:42pm PT
I love how all these posters that spout the fox news propaganda verbatim and in total time sync somehow never watch or listen to any of it.



Get Laid!


I picture Lil Chuffie driving around in a camo HUMMER with a lift kit thinkin he's all that and a bag of crisps.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 09:44pm PT
I only get my news from blogs that source their material from Fox that sources it's material from this other blog I read, ok?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 09:47pm PT
Sorry Lil Chuffie but that IS a word. Look it up. Or better yet look in a mirror if you can stomach the view.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 26, 2014 - 09:55pm PT
A Civil Rights Act that a Republican drew up.

Absolute TGT nonsense which I debunked on the other thread
Civil Rights Act 1964 started with RFK with JFK reluctantly going along because he was afraid it would cost him the racist South in '64. BUT JFK did propose it in a speech in early '63, sent it to the Congress. LBJ (Pres) pushed it in the house and an even stronger version was passed. To the Senate where it was filibustered by the Southern Democrats.
THEN Dirksen, Kuichel (Republican), Mansfield and Humphrey watered it down to get it through the Senate.
Yes, Dirksen helped get it passed. RFK/JFK/LBJ wrote it and made it happen.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 09:56pm PT
Well Jim both North, Central and South Americas are all a part of what is called America.
We are the United States and last time I checked we were in the North.




HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 09:56pm PT
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 26, 2014 - 09:56pm PT
OK I'm out to enjoy the day--you all try to stay out of shet and feck's way as much as possible!


and what a great one it is here in The Bubble. Let's grab a beer sometime!

Sure, throw in a climb too weather and time permitting (got a little shoulder twinge that put me on my bike instead of the rock today, but I'm hoping that's a short term issue).
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 26, 2014 - 10:00pm PT
Give 'em hell The, "Fifty-four Forty or Fight!"

To live a pure unselfish life, one must count nothing as one's own in the midst of abundyance.

-Buddha[sic]

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 10:06pm PT
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 10:15pm PT
Elderly women pepper sprayed at OWS rally.
Cop walked scott free.

Do you have a point Chuff?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 26, 2014 - 10:16pm PT
Let's take him out of context,

make him out to be a racist

Then when they kill the old fart,

we can all feel good about it
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 10:18pm PT
TGT you really should consider changing your avatar to WTF.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 10:22pm PT
TGT posted
Let's take him out of context,

make him out to be a racist

Then when they kill the old fart,

we can all feel good about it

Was this what you were hoping for with the LBJ quote? I'm confused. Have you actually seen the "context" in regards to Bundy? The context was literally "I'm surrounded by white people so why don't I drop some knowledge on them about 'the negroes'." I realize that just sounds like "the way people talk" to you but to the rest of America that's cut and dry racism. Apparently it's only racist to you if you start burning crosses on people's lawns but I'm not even sure of that anymore. Maybe you think that's just exercising religious freedom.

And nobody is hoping this guy dies. He just needs to pay his taxes (which in this case are actual user fees which Republicans constantly argue are the good kind of taxes).
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 10:25pm PT
You seem to know an awful lot about Hate Chuff.

Nobody likes you but they don't hate you, just the "shet" "fecking" you do..
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 10:35pm PT
The Chief argued
Then you concur that Bundy's original comments were in fact taken totally out of context and falsely used for bs propaganda by your liberal press.

Do elaborate. How were they taken out of context? Did they lop off the part where he says "something that my racist uncle used to say was...?"
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 10:36pm PT
Yes Lil Chuffie every last one of my 13,000+ post has been a hate filled political rant. You know this because your research skills are so solid.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 10:48pm PT
The Chief said
Bundy's son even acknowledged that his (ignorant and naive podunk redneck rancher that he is) fathers comments were totally distorted, taken out of context, misrepresented and were never meant to be racist.

I see. So even though you can just listen to his fully unedited, unprompted comments you are instead going to defer to the son's argument that "the media" somehow warped space-time and piped in comments from some guy in 1864 to 2014 that made it just SEEM like Bundy spontaneously launched into a racist soliloquy.

You know who the real racists are? People who make excuses for racism.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 26, 2014 - 10:50pm PT
Yo...I have been on the sidelines but I must chime in. Whenever comments receive negative press the "taken out of context" defense clicks in. If you think that is the case with Bundy's comments please tell me where you got your lobotomy....I'm looking for one myself,
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 26, 2014 - 11:00pm PT
So let's get back to agreed upon facts and then I'll ask a question (well, 3 questions).

Bundy claims his "ancestors" settled his land in 1877. New information from the LV TV reporter implies 1901 at the possible earliest
I'm not going to quibble.
I'll take Bundy's word for 1877
So what do I know about the Virgin River Valley? Since I haven't climbed there, not as much as some around here. However I've driven through a couple of times in daylight, I look at the maps, read a little of the history and ogle Google Earth.
It's a rather fertile valley. Since ranchers and farmers settled there in the late 1800's I would guess it was rather fertile then, especially compared to the hills to the south where Bundy's cattle still roam.

So who did Bundy's ancestors get the land from? And according to Bundy's logic why don't they have a prior right to it?
And of course the implicit question, how did Bundy's ancestors get the land?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 26, 2014 - 11:14pm PT
Donini......Eat some mad-cow tainted beef and you will get ESRD...East Side Rotting Disease ...rj
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 26, 2014 - 11:17pm PT
I was wondering, The, did Craven Bundy serve with you in the Big One? If not, why are you spending so much of your time defending him and attacking those who don't defend him? With all the folks who are tread on, why is CB your choice?

Maybe you can also explain why the rattlesnake has come to dominate the imagery of the movement.



Nevermind, it all stems from Benjamin Franklin


HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 11:26pm PT
Chief argued
Do you think that if Bundy really meant to blab racists comments, and mean them as such about blacks, knowing it would go out all over the nation, that the three Black body guards that have been and remain on his ranch to this day, would do so? That's right Jim. Three Black (two ex Blackwater operatives) body guards.

That's an impressive pretzel you have yourself in there. You could simply watch the video. You could simply say "yeah that's some pretty racist stuff." You could perhaps point out that the guy seems less like a malicious person out to prove that whites are a superior race and more like a sheltered dude with some pretty outdated, racist views. Instead you're arguing that what anyone with eyes and ears cans see happened couldn't have actually happened because if it had then some other entirely plausible thing wouldn't have happened. Because nobody has ever been tolerant of discrimination against them in the history of the world, right? I mean that's like arguing that the owner of the LA Clippers couldn't possibly be racist...just look at all those black people he has working for him!

These threads are just amazing honeypots for racist apologists. It's astounding.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 11:28pm PT
I wonder how much his body guards are paid?
Blackwater??? Really??? Those pigs are mercenaries who will work for, kill for, do and say anything for who ever pays them. If someone offered them $500 more to pull a Dick Cheney on Cliven they wouldn't think twice about. These are the giuys who rape women and murder children.

Tell me Chuff do you agree with them because they are swarthy bearded men with guns or because they are right wing anti-government para military paid mercenaries?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 11:33pm PT
It's true this is all part of a huge conspiracy to build solar panels and make this rancher pay for it by charging him grazing fees.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 26, 2014 - 11:36pm PT
Chief
speaking of taking a quote out of context. Reid never called Bundy a terrorist. Not even close. I was pretty sure you were wrong when I first read your post. So what's your source? Or is it just selective listening?

Here's Reid's quote
The Nevada Democrat has harshly criticized the rancher in the past, saying last week that his supporters are “nothing more than domestic terrorists.”
http://www.politico.com/story/2014/04/harry-reid-cliven-bundy-105994.html

One bozo's "freedom fighter" is another man's "domestic terrorist"

What Reid said about Bundy
“Today, Bundy revealed himself to be a hateful racist,” Reid said in a statement released Thursday.
.
.
Reid’s statement also called Bundy a “hypocrite” and contrasted him with hard-working Nevadans.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 26, 2014 - 11:38pm PT
I'm going to have to defer to Herr Braun on this one. Somewhere upstream he remarked on the "lack of utility" in this thread.

As long as I'm here though, without relying on the so vague as to be meaningless term "racist", do you think Bundy ever wonders if he might have been better off as a slave, instead of looking for a grazing handout.

Finally, does anyone here know how to chop cotton?

Had to go all the way to Australia, to find some white choppers.

crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 26, 2014 - 11:44pm PT
Bundy's son even acknowledged that his (ignorant and naive podunk redneck rancher that he is) fathers comments were totally distorted, taken out of context, misrepresented and were never meant to be racist.

Chief, this is insane. What an ignorant scoundrel. "Blame the media", the mantra of the extremist.

This quote from a column today pretty much sums you up:

Just another dark-ages bigot who goes nuts at the idea that whites are losing clout in an America run by a New Age black president.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 26, 2014 - 11:57pm PT
This entire day has been a prime example of what you all want to perceive and then proliferate to continue your political ideology and agenda.


OMG does the word ironic hump into anyone else's mind?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 26, 2014 - 11:58pm PT
Chief
good clip. Thanks for posting that.
Not going to change any minds but does illustrate the two sides.
Being debated politely.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 12:06am PT
Yea we should really look out for those open pit solar mines.

Wouldn't want to suffer any solar spills.
Better to drill baby drill.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 12:28am PT
Chuff is it because your parents were siblings or a traumatic brain injury?
What makes you so right?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 12:31am PT
^^^ Awesome.


And on the flip side images from Chernobyl
https://www.google.com/search?q=chernobyl&client=safari&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=O4hcU5K-A6OTyQHi44CQCA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1024&bih=672
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 27, 2014 - 12:36am PT
That solar plant is really, really cool. Thanks for posting.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 12:39am PT

Really stinkeye. And I've been trying to use small words just for you.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 12:42am PT












Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 27, 2014 - 01:38am PT
Your gordian grammar is indecipherable, but i do appreciate the link. Next trip to Red Rocks I'm going to check that thing out.

Along with Sedan Crater.

ROAD TRIP!

Had a great night with the kids. Live action raised 15K for Meany Lodge, the oldest operating ski area in WA - walk/ski/snowcat in only - very old school.

One of the auction prizes was a guided caving trip lead by - I couldn't believe it when I saw his pic - my very first climb leader for my first climbing course. Lovely man. Haven't seen him in 32 years.

He's a caretaker at the Lodge now. I'm going to surprise him.

Overall, a great night.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 06:29am PT
Got It!
Well Chief just so you would quit whining i checked out your pet thread.
The most pertinent post was this one...

That is why this thread is a moot point and a waste of time.


YAWN!


Another issue you keep trying to make is about the terrible situation that happened to the Dann sisters. And then you wrap it into an argument of the horrendous environmental damage done by the gold mining permitted by the BLM. Both occurrences were deplorable to be sure.

But the questions I have to ask is who was President then, what party controlled congress at the time, and where was the WhiteWing militia when the Dann sisters needed an armed intervention?



The Federal agencies in charge of our public lands have always been in the business of selling off our national assets for a pittance to private for profit rape and run corporations in the extractive mineral fields. I didn't remember any WhiteWingers protesting against the Bush policies promoting these projects for their cronies benefit. Nor do I recall mobs of burly bearded gunmen showing up to protest the Dann sister situation. Hmmmmm.
So now we have a President who's administration actually believes science exists and that it is a good idea to move in a new direction regarding domestic energy production and independence. If the small patches of the total landmass that the BLM permits development on are now used for renewable energy production rather than strip mines I'm good with that and I think that it is a step in the right direction. But now the WhiteWingers come out in armed mobs to say evil Gubmint ovareach.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 07:17am PT
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 27, 2014 - 08:31am PT
I am offended by the wanton use of 'tassers'

Whatever they are

*ducks incoming feces thrown by the chief*
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Apr 27, 2014 - 08:34am PT
you mean tossers?
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 27, 2014 - 08:57am PT
No

It's up thread somewhere
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 08:59am PT
I am offended by the wanton use of ignorance.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 27, 2014 - 09:17am PT
The chief insisted


You calling me a racists now??

That is one for the books.


The best Human Beings I ever worked for and with, shoulder to shoulder, were Blacks, Chicano's, Orientals and Native Americans. Period.


Yup. If you hear someone say "I'm just wondering if black people weren't better off as slaves" and your immediate response is "oh well that guy was taken out of context" instead of "damn that's pretty racist" then you are in fact defending racist behavior which is itself racist. You've had plenty of opportunities to be clear on this and have chosen to defend his words every time. Just like you're trying to pretend that because mining companies legally strip mine on public land that makes it ok for this dude to illegally graze his cattle. If you're trying trying to start a conversation about public land use policy you're doing it horribly wrong. And yeah you're also being racist.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 09:26am PT
Another issue Chuff keeps trying to make is about the terrible situation that happened to the Dann sisters. And then he wraps it into an argument of the horrendous environmental damage done by the gold mining permitted by the BLM. Both occurrences were deplorable to be sure.

But the questions I have to ask is who was President then, what party controlled congress at the time, and where was the WhiteWing militia when the Dann sisters needed an armed intervention?



The Federal agencies in charge of our public lands have always been in the business of selling off our national assets for a pittance to private for profit rape and run corporations in the extractive mineral fields. I didn't remember any WhiteWingers protesting against the Bush policies promoting these projects for their cronies benefit. Nor do I recall mobs of burly bearded gunmen showing up to protest the Dann sister situation. Hmmmmm.
So now we have a President who's administration actually believes science exists and that it is a good idea to move in a new direction regarding domestic energy production and independence. If the small patches of the total landmass that the BLM permits development on are now used for renewable energy production rather than strip mines I'm good with that and I think that it is a step in the right direction. But now the WhiteWingers come out in armed mobs to say evil Gubmint ovareach.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 10:40am PT
Excellent Chuffles, way to step up to the plate of personal responsibility. . Dodge answering legitimate questions because the answers would undermine your pointless argument then run around crying waaa waaa waaa he was mean to me he's such a hater waa waa waa!






























Keep trying Lil Chuff we all know you can do it and we know it will fit.



Just curious have you ever looked up the definition of the word HATE?
You use the word a lot and you see it everywhere but I have my doubts that you really grasp the meaning of the word. Though you have mastered the intent.




PS: Philo, you are such a loser. You did not even have the balls to post your full agreement with the LADWP and it's ongoing solar projects on that thread. Instead, just your regurgitating more of the same ole ideological hate.


You made a big stink that I wouldn't go on the Eastside thread and make a statement about my beliefs. I knew it was a waste of time because even you could care less about that thread but I went and posted anyway.
Now like some f*#king Israeli UnPeace negotiator you add your newest stipulation to your interpretation of compliance. Keep moving the goal posts and eventually you wont have any field left to play on.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 27, 2014 - 10:53am PT
RACISM?

Sorry to interject any facts into what is apparently just another liberal emotional fact less circle jerk of name calling, where near every post is a personal attack as the poster doesn't have the brains to say anything factually based. But there is this to toss into the mix:
"CNN REPORTER: You're protecting this man and he's wondering whether African-Americans would be better off as slaves. How does that strike you?

JASON BULLOCK, BODYGUARD FOR CLIVEN BUNDY: It doesn't strike me any kind of way. This is still the same old Mr. Bundy I met from the first day of all this happening.

CNN REPORTER: But aren't those offensive comments to you

BULLOCK: Not at all.

CNN REPORTER: Not offensive?

BULLOCK: Because Mr. Bundy is not a racist. Ever since I've been here he's treated me with nothing but hospitality. He's pretty much treated me like his own family.

###

BULLOCK: I would take a bullet for that man, if need be. I look up to him just like I do my own grandfather.

CNN REPORTER: Why?

BULLOCK: Because I believe in his cause and after having met Mr. Bundy a few times, I have a really good feel about him and I'm a pretty good judge of character."

Clearly this Black Bodyguard who sees the man daily needs to talk to a few of you, although you'd most likely just call him some racist name in anger.

And now back to Philo, Bruce Kay and Glanton calling Ron and Chief Poo-poo heads and other 2nd grade names....etc etc etc etc to infinity. Have fun!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 10:58am PT
He is a paid Mercenary. Read up thread it was covered.
But your urge to inflect the issue is curious nes pas?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 11:12am PT
Oh fer fecks sake Rong how devoid of a sense of humor are you anyway?
Your going to base your indignity on another of Chuff's constant mis-interpretations. The human brain trust who thought a suggestion to not blow out the side walls of threads was a THREAT aimed directly at him. The same Mensa candidate who thought the suggestion to post up a climbing TR was a request for his resume of manly deeds. That's who you want to base your interpretation on. No wonder you wight wingers are so fecking full of shet, you believe each other.
And you are also going to squirm and dance the "oh well the LibTard media spun it all out of context" jiggy jig. Come get me "beat down boi" just leave your surrogate penises at home.
Weak minded provincials.


Now back to what's really at play in Nevadastan.

The Koch Attack on Solar Energy

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/27/opinion/sunday/the-koch-attack-on-solar-energy.html?smid=fb-share&_r=1

At long last, the Koch brothers and their conservative allies in state government have found a new tax they can support. Naturally it’s a tax on something the country needs: solar energy panels.

For the last few months, the Kochs and other big polluters have been spending heavily to fight incentives for renewable energy, which have been adopted by most states. They particularly dislike state laws that allow homeowners with solar panels to sell power they don’t need back to electric utilities. So they’ve been pushing legislatures to impose a surtax on this increasingly popular practice, hoping to make installing solar panels on houses less attractive.

Oklahoma lawmakers recently approved such a surcharge at the behest of the American Legislative Exchange Council, the conservative group that often dictates bills to Republican statehouses and receives financing from the utility industry and fossil-fuel producers, including the Kochs. As The Los Angeles Times reported recently, the Kochs and ALEC have made similar efforts in other states, though they were beaten back by solar advocates in Kansas and the surtax was reduced to $5 a month in Arizona.

But the Big Carbon advocates aren’t giving up. The same group is trying to repeal or freeze Ohio’s requirement that 12.5 percent of the state’s electric power come from renewable sources like solar and wind by 2025. Twenty-nine states have established similar standards that call for 10 percent or more in renewable power. These states can now anticipate well-financed campaigns to eliminate these targets or scale them back.

The coal producers’ motivation is clear: They see solar and wind energy as a long-term threat to their businesses. That might seem distant at the moment, when nearly 40 percent of the nation’s electricity is still generated by coal, and when less than 1 percent of power customers have solar arrays. (It is slightly higher in California and Hawaii.) But given new regulations on power-plant emissions of mercury and other pollutants, and the urgent need to reduce global warming emissions, the future clearly lies with renewable energy. In 2013, 29 percent of newly installed generation capacity came from solar, compared with 10 percent in 2012.

Renewables are good for economic as well as environmental reasons, as most states know. (More than 143,000 now work in the solar industry.) Currently, 43 states require utilities to buy excess power generated by consumers with solar arrays. This practice, known as net metering, essentially runs electric meters backward when power flows from rooftop solar panels into the grid, giving consumers a credit for the power they generate but don’t use.

The utilities hate this requirement, for obvious reasons. A report by the Edison Electric Institute, the lobbying arm of the power industry, says this kind of law will put “a squeeze on profitability,” and warns that if state incentives are not rolled back, “it may be too late to repair the utility business model.”

Since that’s an unsympathetic argument, the utilities have devised another: Solar expansion, they claim, will actually hurt consumers. The Arizona Public Service Company, the state’s largest utility, funneled large sums through a Koch operative to a nonprofit group that ran an ad claiming net metering would hurt older people on fixed incomes by raising electric rates. The ad tried to link the requirement to President Obama. Another Koch ad likens the renewable-energy requirement to health care reform, the ultimate insult in that world. “Like Obamacare, it’s another government mandate we can’t afford,” the narrator says.

That line might appeal to Tea Partiers, but it’s deliberately misleading. This campaign is really about the profits of Koch Carbon and the utilities, which to its organizers is much more important than clean air and the consequences of climate change.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Apr 27, 2014 - 11:25am PT
With all this macho flexing, what I want to know is who wins a barehanded fight Chief or Philo?
I vote for a real-world celebrity grudge match to see once and for all who has the hardest brain in the sandbox.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 27, 2014 - 11:25am PT


Keep accepting the media version boyz, but while you consider: another black mans views: maybe he's a xenophobe and a whatever:



[Click to View YouTube Video]

hard to hear from all the background noise.

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 27, 2014 - 11:26am PT
Ron, do yourself a favor, stop defending Bundy....even the moronic shock jocks can see that it's a no win situation.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 27, 2014 - 11:26am PT


And some more of the same: http://www.infowars.com/black-marines-cliven-bundy-is-not-racist/print/

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 27, 2014 - 11:28am PT
..and from this link http://www.theburningplatform.com/2014/04/10/clive-bundy-making-a-stand-against-goverment-thugs/ we have this:

"Mr. Bundy’s daughter Shiree Bundy Cox in a letter explains the feud from the family’s perspective:

“I have had people ask me to explain my dad’s stance on this BLM fight. Here it is in as simple of terms as I can explain it. There is so much to it, but here it s in a nut shell. My great grandpa bought the rights to the Bunkerville allotment back in 1887 around there. Then he sold them to my grandpa who then turned them over to my dad in 1972. These men bought and paid for their rights to the range and also built waters, fences and roads to assure the survival of their cattle, all with their own money, not with tax dollars. The rights to the land use are called preemptive rights. Some where down the line, to keep the cows from over grazing, came the Bureau of Land Management.

They were supposed to assist the ranchers in the management of their ranges while the ranchers paid a yearly allotment which was to be use to pay the BLM wages and to help with repairs and improvements of the ranches. My dad did pay his grazing fees for years to the BLM until they were no longer using his fees to help him and to improve. Instead they began using these monies against the ranchers. They bought all the rest of the ranchers in the area out with they’re own grazing fees. When they offered to buy my dad out for a penance he said no thanks and then fired them because they weren’t doing their job. He quit paying the BLM and tried giving his grazing fees to the county, which they turned down. So my dad just went on running his ranch and making his own improvements with his own equipment and his own money, not taxes.

In essence the BLM was managing my dad out of business. Well when buying him out didn’t work, they used the endangered species card. You’ve already heard about the desert tortoise. Well that didn’t work either, so then began the threats and the court orders, which my dad has proven to be unlawful for all these years. Now they’re desperate. It’s come down to buying the brand inspector off and threatening the County Sheriff. Everything their doing at this point is illegal and totally against the Constitution of the United States of America. Then there’s the issue of the cattle that are at this moment being stolen. See even if dad hasn’t paid them, those cattle belong to him, regardless of where they are they are my father’s property.

His herd has been part of that range for over a hundred years, long before the BLM even existed. Now the Feds think they can just come in and remove them and sell them without a legal brand inspection or without my dad’s signature on it. They think they can take them over two borders, which is illegal, ask any trucker. Then they plan to take them to the Richfield Auction and sell them. All this with our tax money. They have paid off the contract cowboys and the auction owner as well as the Nevada brand inspector with our tax dollars. See how slick they are? Well, this is it in a nut shell. Thanks”"

I don't see her addressing the 2 Bundy losses in Federal court, so I'm not siding with Bundy here, but there are alternative views, and heres' a few.

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 27, 2014 - 11:29am PT


so I leave you boyz with your name calling circle jerk...ta ta...


philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 11:31am PT
I vote for a real-world celebrity grudge match to see once and for all who has the hardest brain in the sandbox


Well since public land managers at climbing areas require me to where a helmet to protect the rocks I'd wager that my head is thickest but at least it's not stuck in the sand and thinking inside the box like Lil Chuffer's.



Pooh Head ha ha hahhahhahhahaha.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 27, 2014 - 11:34am PT
yes, this is a proven winning strategy!

find a couple of people out of 330 million here in the US who say Bundy not racist

and it is especially helpful if they are non white people, because their opinion really matters

post it

and then conclude, smugly, that the other 98% of America is wrong that he is a racist

works every time

in kindergarten
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 27, 2014 - 11:34am PT
Couchmaster whitesplained
Clearly this Black Bodyguard who sees the man daily needs to talk to a few of you, although you'd most likely just call him some racist name in anger.

Ah yes. The old "guys it's not racist cause my black friend said it was cool" defense. What you seem to be missing is that it's possible to be a kindly old gentleman and also be really racist. America was founded by really smart, really good, really racist people. I'm sure Cliven is just a peach to be around. He's also extremely racist.

Musing whether or not black people were better off a slaves is racist. Period. Trying to excuse someone for saying it is racist. Period. Insisting that the real racists are the ones calling Bundy out on his racism is racist. Stop excusing a culture of racism. You can in fact agree with someone about something and also acknowledge their racism. Biden calling Obama the "first clean, well spoken" black presidential candidate was racist. It doesn't mean Biden goes to secret meetings plotting the death of black people it just means that he encouraged a culture of racism. You can in fact acknowledge and alter your own racist behavior.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 11:39am PT
Bundy is a racist, a liar and a cheat and a welfare queen and his socialist cows need to be burgered.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Apr 27, 2014 - 11:40am PT
Ron,
Yo mama so ugly, they changed Halloween to YoMamaween!

Yo daddy is so stupid that he spent twenty minutes lookin’ at an orange juice box because it said “concentrate”.

You mad bro?
You really did just stand up in the sandbox and scream "Don't talk about my parents, or I'm telling !"
Were you homeschooled or what?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 11:44am PT
That Ron doesn't care that Cliven is a racist.
Speaks volumes really.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 27, 2014 - 11:44am PT
It is drop dead hilarious that Cliven can muse during an interview about blacks being better off as slaves than living on government subsidy, while for twenty years he's been grazing his cattle for free on government land.

Hey Cliven, can you spell subsidy?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 27, 2014 - 11:45am PT
So if a black guy said slavery was justified that means it was totally cool? That's literally the logic that you guys are pitching here. I mean this isn't even subtle racism this is overt "black people are inherently unable to operate without white masters" racism and you guys are unable to call a spade a spade.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 27, 2014 - 11:55am PT
Ron, you can try to muddle the facts as much as you want. It won't work. You aligned yourself with a racist and your continued defense of Bundy makes it clear that you are a racist as well.

Which, of course, is no surprise to anyone familiar with your views.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 27, 2014 - 11:58am PT
Maybe closer to the truth here in figuring out why folks are supporting Bundy. An interesting letter from an alleged local under the story on the Burning Platform. I'll ask all you Philos and Bruce Kays to read it first and then comment. Instead of your usual methodology of reading the first sentence (which in this case will get you all ramped up at the swipe at Lincoln) and then a kneejeck emotional factless spew disputing what you think is said without reading in it's entirety. By the way, from my viewpoint this letter does not get me to believe that Bundy should be able to graze his cattle, it explains why so many others support him and is very interesting. Just trying to mix up the discourse here with some facts, to break up the name calling. Maybe I'm on the wrong site for that though.

"First-hand account from someone who is there, and seemingly knows a great deal. Copy and pasted from the link provided by MacGhil.

=

Nevada is over 90% federal land.

When the state was carved out right at the end of the civil war, Lincoln, (the worst constitutional president in our history prior to the current one) made sure that all the states entering would bow down to the the fed and our state constitution and the great amount of federal land reflects that.

Since most of the state is desert, ranchers have always had to use tremendous acreage to feed cattle here. Our state was brought into the union around 1865. Prior to that, and after that, up till 1934 ranchers had legal free reign to graze cattle with no restrictions. This was called forage rights.

In the 1930′s the ranchers had arguments between themselves regarding territories. So a few of the larger ones got together and asked the fed if they could hire them, by paying minimal fees to “manage” the land and break it out into sections. This was made into the Taylor Grazing Act of 1934.

The fees are minimal. $1.74 per cow & calf per month. Ranchers had no problem paying that just to have disagreements settled.

Ranchers were also required to secure water rights and maintain and make improvements on the land. Mr. Bundy and his predecessors have always done that. No one is arguing that fact.

Bundy’s ranch was established in 1877. His family purchased it later, in the 1880′s. But when they did, they had to PAY for the water and forage rights.

After the 1934 act they continued to pay grazing fees and make improvements up until the 1990′s.

Somewhere along the way the Bureau of Land Management was created. I don’t know what year.

Around 1990 or so they told him that he could no longer graze more than 150 of his 600 or so head of cattle there.

He told them to pound sand and kept paying his fees and grazing his cattle.

Around 1994 they told him he could only graze them in the summer, fall and winter and said it was so that the cattle didn’t disturb the Desert Tortoise. (more on that later)

He told them that they were HIRED by the Taylor Grazing act to MANAGE the land for the ranchers. So he FIRED them and started paying his fees to to the state of Nevada. Soon they didn’t know where to put it so they quit taking payments.

Meanwhile they came at him from another angle. When they saw they weren’t going to be able to force him off the land the BLM SOLD the rights to the land to the state of Nevada under the condition that the state RETIRE the grazing rights permanently. Nevada legislators, being idiots, did their bidding. That was around 1996 or so.

But the state left him alone and let him forage all those years.

A few years ago, due to Agenda 21, Ranchers around the nation were being shut down and either bought out (with a program that paid them a lump sum of YOUR taxpayer funds in exchange for quitting ranching.

A lot of them did. The program was touted as “optional” but they intimidated the ranchers with lawsuits ranging from environmental concerns to water concerns to endangered species.

Before all this there were 50 ranchers in Clark County Nevada. Now there is one. Cliven Bundy.

For 20 years they tried to remove another rancher, Mr Hage, from a neighboring county. The sheriff of that county came to his aid and told the feds to screw off. They threatened the sheriff with a swat team and he told them to bring it on, he had his own swat team. The feds screwed up with Mr Hage though. They made it a water rights issue and after 20 years, about a year after he died, they lost in court.

Now they don’t play the water rights card anymore because it is too cut and dry. They now play the environmental card because they can make up the rules and change them whenever they like.

This is what they have done with Bundy. Everytime he gets where he can win, they change the laws and he loses in court.

So now it is about the Desert Tortoise. This is an animal the BLM had a habitat for, but when they ran out of money to run the habitat they slaughtered 1800 of them. Miraculously they now claim they have mysteriously found 3 million dollars that they are paying to round up and steal Bundy’s cattle. They are paying the slimy for hire private cowboys 1 million of that.

So now they have a court order to take his cattle and auction them.

The sheriffs of nearby counties have stated that they will stop them along the way and make them produce a signed agreement from Bundy or they will confiscate the cattle and give them back. That only leaves them one route out, straight down through Clark County to Arizona or California. I believe they are already auctioning off any of the ones they found that were not branded even though it is common knowledge they are his because he is the only rancher there. There isn’t much the sheriffs can do about that.

When this happened in neighboring counties and in other states the sheriffs backed the ranchers up. Our Sheriff is a spineless puss of a half-man and refuses to get involved. I assume the only way he will get involved is if he hears the BLM rangers shooting civilians and sends his guys up to help out of jealousy of all the fun they are having. We have the most corrupt and worthless police department in the country.

To make matters worse, I spoke to the lesser of two evils running for Sheriff this time around yesterday at a luncheon and asked him why they weren’t helping. He answered that from his understanding Bundy was just a guy who wouldn’t pay his fees and he didn’t think they should get involved. He knew nothing of the Taylor Grazing act or any of the history of Bundy’s rights to graze. Great, replacing a worthless bag of skin for sheriff with another worthless bag of skin. We can’t win.

So now they are using helicopters to round up his cattle and try to take them to auction. He claims he has about 500 head, they say 900. Probably because they don’t know that the Taylor Grazing act counts a cow and a calf as one head. They are stressing the cattle and some of them are dying in the chase. That is why they brought in backhoes and dump trucks.

The people in the video above were trying to block them on private land before they got to public lands and were tazed and thrown to the ground.

The BLM has set up “free speech zones” for people to protest. Two 50×50 pig pens for them to stand in. But they can only use one of them at a time.

Bundy’s son was arrested day before yesterday when he pulled over on a STATE road where he could see the valley and take pictures of the way they were treating the cattle.

They threw him down to the ground, ground his head in the dirt with their boots, and took him to Henderson jail, then to the federal building. Eventually they gave him a ticket for protesting outside the “free speech zone” and “resisting arrest”. They let him go 80 miles away in Las Vegas with no money. He had a credit card which he used to trade some gas at a gas station for use of a lady’s cell phone, to get someone to pick him up.

Yesterday they arrested a few more protesters for being outside the “free speech zone”.

Militias from all over the nation are being called up to come to Nevada. People are flying and driving in from everywhere. This is the first time in our history where men from all over the country have been willing to come together to fight against the federal government. If this had happened at Waco, our entire country would be different today.

Politicians are afraid to say much. The republicans don’t want to say anything because he lost in federal court and that’s all that matters to those scumbags. The Democrats don’t care so much about the courts as they lavish in the idea that a fat rich rancher and destroyer of the environment is getting what he deserves.

The libertarians are all that’s left. And he has a LOT of support from Sheriffs and Oath Keepers. (other than our bag of skin)

The bottom line is the Feds want all ranching stopped. They are doing it on federal lands first, then will do it on private lands based on the new definitions in the clean water act. It’s an Agenda 21 implementation. It wouldn’t matter if he paid fees from here to kingdom come, they want him shut down and they will try any angle they can. He stated that after reading their plans to retire all the land for grazing he refused to finance his own demise by giving them fees. I’m with him 100%. And apparently so are thousands of others willing to come here."
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Apr 27, 2014 - 11:58am PT


couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 27, 2014 - 12:01pm PT

...and 2 more interesting links:


1st one has a map of drilling operations.

http://www.naturalnews.com/044670_BLM_lies_fracking_leases_Bundy_ranch.html#

2nd one is a biologist who says that the science suggests that cattle grazing is beneficial:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/can-livestock-grazing-stop-desertification/

That seems apropo here as the Taylor Grazing act was an attempt by the ranchers to stop the out of control overgrazing by everybody and their dog which helped move the dust bowl along.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Apr 27, 2014 - 12:01pm PT
Locker, can I offer an answer as to what the video proves?
I think it proves that there is a narrative that blames the disenfranchisement of black americans on themselves as a group. I think that you, Locker, already understand the fallacy of that argument but it is no surprise that some people of color and most bigots would adopt that view based on their limited understanding of disenfranchisement and economic segregation.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 27, 2014 - 12:03pm PT
Ron says:


Apr 27, 2014 - 08:56am PT
Nevadans are buying guns at a RAPID pace. In Fact the new store in Carson is headed for the #1 position of a LARGE franchise and we will be there within another week. So you B&B crowds should steer clear of this state from now and into the foreseeable future. It is after all, what you fear. things like freedom from oppressive govt actions will NO LONGER BE TOLERATED here.

Thinly veiled threats of violence and armed rebellion will get you in trouble. Might be time to take another break from the forum. Once again, you have shown yourself to be an unhinged, dangerous individual.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Apr 27, 2014 - 12:03pm PT
Anita and Locker,
My name is brook. Maybe I'm the little stream?

John M

climber
Apr 27, 2014 - 12:07pm PT
Hey Couchmaster,

I have seen that letter you posted. If it were true, it might be telling on why people are upset, and I have no doubt many people believe it is true, but it has some very serious factual errors.. I'm not really interested in digging deep into this anymore as I mostly think that this thing has so many lies around it that it has become absurd.. Here is one error..

Bundy’s ranch was established in 1877. His family purchased it later, in the 1880′s. But when they did, they had to PAY for the water and forage rights.

Here is a timeline..

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/nevada/range-war-timeline-events
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Apr 27, 2014 - 12:09pm PT

Ron said;
As I said earlier FACTS DIRECTLY from those whom Bundy is accused of being AGAINST will be ignored by the B&B crowds.
[/quote]

You keep using the word 'facts'. I do not think that word means what you think it means.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 27, 2014 - 12:11pm PT
Nevada is approximately 86% federal land. But what are a few bothersome facts?


Plus 1 for Nita!
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 27, 2014 - 12:14pm PT
Welcome to life on both sides of the Bundy/Dickhead line.

Tiny innernutz, in-flamed and in charge.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 12:15pm PT
Get it?
Got it.
Gud!



My Dad is a nice old man with many quirky antiquated beliefs.
But he couldn't be a racist 'cause his favorite caddy was a neeegro boy.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 12:24pm PT
My Fault. Sorry.
Got it!

I foolishly tried using simple plain language and verifiable facts with Lil Chuffie.
Got it?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 12:29pm PT
Who keeps posting then deleting?
Did they...





















































get it?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 27, 2014 - 12:34pm PT
I think most cattle grazing should be stopped on federal land in the southwest/west.

I'll take a solar farm over cattle grazing any day.


Chief is a little off center if you ask me...Got it!!!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 12:35pm PT
^^^ he is a bit like an unballanced washing machine on spin cyclle.


I think most cattle grazing should be stopped on federal land in the southwest/west.

I'll take a solar farm over a cattle grazing any day.



Or an open pit strip mine.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 27, 2014 - 12:43pm PT
Phil wrote: Or an open pit strip mine.


Funny thing is that republicans push for strip mining because it creates jobs.

It is all Harry Reid and Obama fault. Got it!!!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 12:45pm PT
Yer a loon Chuffles. A certifiable loon who probably wouldn't pass a real background check to own guns. You don't have the Scrote to post up a climbing TR.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 12:48pm PT
^^^ Well that's probably evidence that the gun laws are too lax.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 27, 2014 - 12:55pm PT
Chief is going to shoot his gun...I'm going to look at birds.

Different worlds, different ways of living.


Chief and Ron seem piss at their world...I'm not. I see beauty everyday in my world.


philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 12:55pm PT
No it's about a Racist Freeloader and the anti-government gun huggers that ball cup him.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 27, 2014 - 12:58pm PT

I mean like, I am SO totally into YOU
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 12:59pm PT
Mah kahrz a Vovo wagin. I likes it.
Aint got no gud winder fer the gun wrack tho.
Oh well you gits what ya gits an ya don thro no fitz.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 01:00pm PT
I wonder who will cut and run this page.
Who could be so embarrassed by the banality of their words that they would feel so compelled as to delete them?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 27, 2014 - 01:05pm PT
Phil wrote: Mah kahrz a Vovo wagin. I likes it.
Aint got no gud winder fer the gun wrack tho.
Oh well you gits what ya gits an ya don thro no fitz.


Never understood why Ron talks like hillbilly?


Or maybe he is just a hillbilly?


Does anyone Get It?



philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 01:13pm PT
Ah kint shet yew, yewz ma favrit turd.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 01:18pm PT
What happened to all the cuntservatives? Is nurse Ratchett making med rounds?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 27, 2014 - 01:22pm PT
they have formed a circle........and will commence firing
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Apr 27, 2014 - 01:29pm PT
I guess someone's boss is lurking online, perhaps?

Isn't chuff when your balls get all sweaty and rub around and get squished between your thighs and cause sores and redness and a general malaise?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 27, 2014 - 01:30pm PT
You are a child of the universe

You have a right to be here

edit: Anita, go back to bed, that was just terrible
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 01:33pm PT



Hey Lil Chuffie this is what Jim Donini actually said rather than what your delusional misinterpretation came up with.
He was encouraging posters to get into a climbing thread on the COR June meet up thread.
Guess what just like the Eastside thread you said I'd never post on I went and posted on the COR thread. When was the last time you contributed to or even visited a climbing thread?
You who so swiftly and so adamantly condemn people for posting on political threads.


Let's bump this with the militia thread to see if the bloodletters there ever visit climbing threads.

I know that Philo is a real climber.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 01:43pm PT

OhCOWpie MOOvement ah caint quit ewe.

Get it?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 27, 2014 - 01:56pm PT
Anita...Fish finder calls that fun...
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Apr 27, 2014 - 01:59pm PT
uh oh

looks like a bad case of the chuffs

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 27, 2014 - 02:17pm PT
You ever realize that discussions on supertopo devolve quickly once people decide that their argument is best articulated by turning their opponents names into ad hominem puns?

I dig your metaphor, Crag.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 27, 2014 - 02:19pm PT
Did a little research on that solar plant. Cost per kWHr is comparable to a centralized PV plant.

As far as land area reqs, if one assumes a standard city lot is 5K sf, the plant effectively adds 17% to the land area required for urban housing (given the plant's average, not peak, capacity), although the land costs of that 17% are a small fraction of those in the city.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 02:19pm PT
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 27, 2014 - 02:33pm PT
We all saw it the first three times in both threads, philo. Post some actual content.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 02:36pm PT
OK. Here.

Sarah Palin: 'Waterboarding Is How We'd Baptize Terrorists' If I Were In Charge.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/27/sarah-palin-waterboarding_n_5222665.html?utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false#sb=888105b=facebook

Sarah Palin wants terrorists to know how the United States would deal with them if she were president.

Speaking Saturday at the National Rifle Association's "Stand And Fight" rally at Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis, Palin accused the Obama administration of instating counterterrorism policies that "coddle adversaries."


Someone should tell Caribou Barbie she should send the waterboarders for Christ down to Nevadastan. Some of them heathens need a bath.

During her speech, Palin focused on Second Amendment rights, which she said liberals are "attacking" in addition to the United States' "foundational values and tradition." According to Palin, creating gun-free zones in schools and other public buildings is "stupid on steroids."

She of course is all wet to begin with.


Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 27, 2014 - 02:51pm PT
Cartoons are for people who can't come up with anything original themselves.

Ah, well, most people on the innernutz may as well be parrots, although that's probably an insult to parrots everywhere.

Don't get me wrong, I love a good cartoon - they can really cut to the chase - but those are few in number.

Most are analogous to painting a portrait with a mop.

Actually, that would be kind of novel....
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 27, 2014 - 02:58pm PT
Does anyone understand Chief's "hit, run, erase" strategy ??
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 27, 2014 - 03:04pm PT
Perhaps he's taking a break from All Malevolent, All the Time, to do something that might improve his on line disposition, which, I will agree, is a bit weird and pointless.

That should be encouraged, not punished, IMO.
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz CA
Apr 27, 2014 - 03:05pm PT
Does anyone understand Chief's "hit, run, erase" strategy ??

It's the cousin to the "ready, fire, aim" strategy.

Susan
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 03:20pm PT
Cartoons are for people who can't come up with anything original themselves
I have a feeling Tami may disagree with you and I know I do.

Hey Tvash FYI I drew those cartoons so original content I guess.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Apr 27, 2014 - 03:24pm PT
Philo is ST's very own Chuck Asay
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 27, 2014 - 03:24pm PT
That's good to know actually. TGT should draw some too.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 03:25pm PT
Except he is only capable of drawing false conclusions.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 27, 2014 - 03:36pm PT
Not exactly New Yorker material. Pretty tired stuff.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 27, 2014 - 03:37pm PT
Does anyone understand Chief's "hit, run, erase" strategy ??

what's to understand? he's an idiot and a coward.

probably really unhappy too from the looks of it.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 27, 2014 - 03:41pm PT
Ron posted
Nevadans are buying guns at a RAPID pace. In Fact the new store in Carson is headed for the #1 position of a LARGE franchise and we will be there within another week. So you B&B crowds should steer clear of this state from now and into the foreseeable future. It is after all, what you fear. things like freedom from oppressive govt actions will NO LONGER BE TOLERATED here. You in B& B can have those with our thanks. Hope you enjoy what you get. For us here in the Great Basin state - we shall be enjoying our strengths. We shall covet our OPEN lands and our first amendment rights areas shall include any where we step breath or fart thank you.

Ironic that your open lands largely belong to the rest of us just as much.

Why is it that in all this conspiracy postulation nobody points out that the gun and ammo manufacturers/retailers seem to be the ones who always come out on top? Doesn't it tickle your conspiracy bone just a little that there is always some obscure threat to "are freedoms" that causes a fear only sated by the purchase of more guns? And yet the gun manufacturers/retailers are never the target of conspiracy lore. Interesting that Ron's quality of life prospects only increase the more fevered the pitch is. Ron rolls in here insisting that this is all a big government takeover for which the only answer is the purchase of guns which he, as luck would have it, has in hot supply. Makes one wonder...
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 27, 2014 - 03:41pm PT
philo---great cartoons.

So the Right Wing Whackos found a black guy in the "militias". 1 out of over 1000 claimed participants (Newsweek reported 1000 before they had all arrived). How does that compare with the ratio of blacks in the country? Or even in the Intermountain West where blacks are under represented to start with? There's an ugly phrase for that: Token N......

From the first Whacko website I found:
The news of the pull out comes as hundreds of Militia from around the country had made their way to the Bundy Ranch. Up to 5,000 more Militia were expected to flood into the area throughout the weekend, causing the BLM to fear a deadly confrontation.
So the most aggrieved class of people in this country were represented by one guy.
Proves Bundy's not a racist?

Give Me A Break
Bundy's words prove he is.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 03:47pm PT
Nice recovery Tvash but your no original content comment is still null and void.
Thanks Hightraverse.



Cliven Bundy in his own words.

Admits he may be a "welfare queen".

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/04/26/cliven-bundy-admits-he-might-be-a-welfare-queen-in-brutal-cnn-interview/
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 04:20pm PT
And if that wasn't enough there is this.
http://www.demonews.org/watch-maddow-explains-why-bundys-antigovernment-extremism-is-no-laughing-matter/
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 27, 2014 - 04:28pm PT
It might be easy enough to laugh at Bundy except he is the unfortunate face of some equally outlandish and very dangerous people.

Our friend Ron appears to becoming drawn deeper into the web. I hope he's more sane and careful than his latest rant here.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 27, 2014 - 05:15pm PT
who said it was a fracking operation?

and who is telling these lies and half truths?

who?
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Apr 27, 2014 - 05:25pm PT
First it was solar, then it was fracking, what next? a base of operations for "alien abductions" carried out by the government.

Really, think about it, there is no evidence that the government is not abducting citizens and they need somewhere to store them. The most covert way to pull this off is to trigger a massive protest involving a guy you have been battling for over 20 years.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 27, 2014 - 05:38pm PT
It doesn't matter if they plan on building a 3,000 foot carbon spewing statue of Obama burning an aborted fetus using the original constitution for kindling. This guy broke the law. The BLM showed up to enforce the law. Ron' s buddies showed up to obstruct the LEOs. Weird how if a Mexican treks across the desert risking his life to get a job to feed his family the law is somehow sacrosanct but when a white guy rack up $1 million in grazing fees while vocally declaring the government doesn't exist he's a victim of some sort of miscarriage of justice.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Apr 27, 2014 - 05:40pm PT
Now this is my kind of campfire

3 sh!tfaced guys stuck on transmit only talking over each other
JTiss

Mountain climber
Sandog
Apr 27, 2014 - 05:51pm PT
Long time lurker and first time posting here on Supertopo. I have no opinion what so ever on the subject at hand. As I have been following this particular totally insane silly political based thread for laughs, I do need to clear the air of the facts in regards to Rick “The Chief” Poedtke. He is a valid, highly trained, well experienced and one of the most balanced “Guides” I have yet to hire. I’ve been doing so for well over 16 years now throughout the world on many different type adventure and climbing trips. He came highly recommended by a close friend of mine here in San Marcos that had been led by Rick on a scheduled SMI Whitney trip the previous summer. He has since led both myself and my now 14 year old daughter on two different adventures in the Sierra. The two of us on the Mountaineer's Route on Whitney and myself on the North Ridge of Lone Pine Peak. On both occasions he far surpassed my expectations of how a professional mountain guide should behave and perform throughout the entire trip. He is top notch through and through. I now consider him a friend since those two trips over three years ago. I often call on him for advice on equipment and route beta as well as conditions for rock climbs and peak bagging throughout the eastside of the Sierra. He can be rather opinionated at times. But as a former Navy Officer, I know and understand that comes with the territory of being a career Chief Petty Officer in the fields of endeavor that he pursued. From my former Navy contacts here in the San Diego area which I communicated with prior to hiring him and the company he works for, I found that Rick had an outstanding reputation of being one of the best at what those professional endeavors were.

Whatever he has said or done here on this forum, I personally don’t care. He’s good with me. It is the internet for god’s sake that is full of good time laughs. But as I noted above, when push comes to shove out on them hills, the gent is for real and certainly one of the best guides money can buy and friend anyone could ask for.

Now back to lurking for a good laugh or two. And hopefully soon, some invigorating reading of the few and far between motivational photo filled TR’s that occasionally do appear here of late. Especially those from that young Russian lad, Vitaliy M.

J. Tisdale Jr.
San Marcos, CA
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 27, 2014 - 06:21pm PT
I still want Ron or one of his brethren to explain this whole "Agenda 21" stuff. I have a sister in law who is into that kind of stuff. Her emails are a riot.

paging Ron.......
dirtbag

climber
Apr 27, 2014 - 06:32pm PT
Be careful what you wish for, Base.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 27, 2014 - 06:40pm PT
Jtiss, nice post!

But who are you referring to?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 27, 2014 - 06:47pm PT
bluey
he's referring to Chief.

JTiss
Nice profile of your friend. From your point of view in the mountains. In this warped and weird intardnet land he may be a different person.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 07:02pm PT
Beware the Lizard people. They are Dick Cheney's armed guard.



NWO2 thinks it's an secret plan to enslave us all.
John M

climber
Apr 27, 2014 - 07:09pm PT
'm not sure why he can't state that himself and in that absence and in the presence of his typical bullshit behavior we unfortunately can only hypothesis that we would never allow one of our own loved ones to climb anything with him.

Bruce. He has stated his qualifications many times, but this place gets so rabid at times it brings out the worst in people. There is something about the internet and posting that intensifies things. Otherwise decent people say really lousy things. Myself included. Some people have little ability to restrain what they say on the internet, whereas face to face they are much different people. We have seen this many times on this forum.

Someone can innocently answer a question about their qualifications and someone else can bag on them for bragging. The amount of bullshit that happens on the internet is sometimes mind boggling.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 07:13pm PT
http://www.demonews.org/watch-maddow-explains-why-bundys-antigovernment-extremism-is-no-laughing-matter/
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 07:20pm PT
Nor would I like a sharp stick in the eye. Would you?

You are taking a hypothetical study (or is it a studied hypothesis) and turning it into a irrational fear of jack booted brown shirts coming down the street rounding everyone up. It ain't gunna happen and not because of fools like the Burn's Brigands or the Oaf Creapers.
Your like someone who loses sleep because the Sun is going supernova. Eventually but not today.
JTiss

Mountain climber
Sandog
Apr 27, 2014 - 07:21pm PT
"But who are you referring to?"
---------------------------------------------


I believe it would be best to leave it with not mentioning anyone in particular. Those specific individuals must certainly know who they are as there were more than one on this thread that brought up the validity of Rick's certification, experience and performance as a professional mountain guide.

For the rest of your responses since my post, it stands as is. The man is one hard and proven individual. He will certainly drop everything when called upon by anyone that he calls his friend and do whatever it takes to assist them, anytime, anywhere for any reason. No questions asked. He has done so for me on several occasions when I needed some assistance with some route beta and rock climbing instruction. Free of charge.

As I stated, this is the internet for god's sake. If anyone deems it necessary to characterize anyone by anything they write on any social media web site, than it is they that need to have their "sanity" evaluated. Especially some here that spend so much of their precious time on earth, posting complete "poo poo" about the most absurd issues.

Now, can some of you deep thinking politically minded climbers here on this and the other political threads, please, please start posting some TR's of all your trips in the mountains for us that are not as fortunate to get out as often as you all supposedly do. If you all were to spend one tenth of the energy you do on these baseless political threads posting TR's, maybe Supertopo would return to being the climbing website I enjoyed lurking on for over ten years. Not some late night second rate cable talk show equivalent that it has come to be lately. Pretty sad that my only two posts here are what they are.

J.Tisdale Jr.

edit: My Profile photo is of myself and my daughter on the Whitney Trip that Rick led us on which by the way he took with my camera. Still is one of the most memorable that my daughter and I have had together to date.
John M

climber
Apr 27, 2014 - 07:27pm PT
Bruce, what you fail to understand is that there is a long history here. You want everything now. It often doesn't work that way.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 07:32pm PT
Hey JTis do you know I tried to encourage The Chief to post up TRs about his climbing so we could see a non lunatic side of him. He thought I was threatening him and posted up his military cred instead. He has NO TRs posted. We are not on this thread here to praise his military service nor his climbing acumen or guide professionalism. We are discussing or arguing if you will about a particular issue. Only Chiefs words are of concern not his deeds. Your stance that it's just words on the net so no biggie isn't exactly correct. Any given community cyber or real should stand up to the abhorrent behavior of the clan fringe. The Chief has reaped what he has sown.

By the way your glowing praise of his willingness to jump up and be of service is nice and all but most of us even the most hate filled like me would do the same even for a loon like the Chief
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 27, 2014 - 07:34pm PT
He is top notch through and through.

No

He's a fu cking POS

Nice ball-cupping form though, but I wonder why you'd bother...he's destroyed his own name here and some guy making his first post about how soft and smooth his sac is will never change that.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 07:35pm PT
^^^ See can't you feel the love. lol
John M

climber
Apr 27, 2014 - 07:35pm PT
Having worked with gang members, my understanding of extremists is that pushing their buttons only makes things worse. Empathy is about the only thing that I have found that helps with those who are reachable. Otherwise you just push them into extremes. Some aren't reachable so you have to ask yourself if you really want to set them off. Others are entirely reachable. There is basic decency there, but it is clouded by things like PTSD, serious trauma including childhood trauma, and or just growing up in a tough life.

My friend who was a POW in Vietnam is a prime example. He was raised by a very tough, distant and angry alcoholic father, and then ended up a POW in Vietnam. After Vietnam he rode with the Hells Angels. So he has tough things to overcome, and yet there is a deep desire on his part to be of service. His service doesn't excuse some of his behavior, but it might cause one to be more willing to look a little deeper, rather then like a cat with a mouse.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 27, 2014 - 07:36pm PT
why is it that some, many, threads eventually become about one person?

this thread is not about the chief

it is not about his guiding, climbing, or military ability

it IS about the stupid racist deadbeat cowboy and him sucking off the government teat

why is it about the chief, WHY?
John M

climber
Apr 27, 2014 - 07:37pm PT
You misunderstood me Bruce. I didn't mean that someones history is to long to share it. I meant that there is a long history of his experience having been shared, and some pissing on it.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 27, 2014 - 07:39pm PT
Some of you sad-sacks are just miserable people intent on slandering others.

Pretty disgusting...
John M

climber
Apr 27, 2014 - 07:46pm PT
It's about that sackoshit Bundy, and I don't mean Ted either.

whats pissing off some folks is that to them it is about a whole lot more then just Bundy. Its about government overreach. They just aren't very good at expressing themselves and many of them have a history of bagging on liberals causes, such as the occupy movement, so that just adds to the noise.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 07:47pm PT
^^^Exactly John M
John M

climber
Apr 27, 2014 - 07:50pm PT
If my post is correct Philo, then where is your empathy? Why do you continue to harass people rather then try and express what they mean, so that communication can continue.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Apr 27, 2014 - 08:02pm PT
Base did your fingertip access of all U.S. wells direct you to the other Nevada oil fields besides RR valley? Though few, there are others. By the way, whats the industry scuttlebutt on Noble's oil play in Elko county?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 08:03pm PT
. John M I tried, i really tried Years ago I tried and tried and tried.
After enough time dealing with folks who utilize continued deliberate ignorance and out right lies in spite of being repeatedly shown the verifiable facts disproving their usually specious arguments I find myself in meager supply of empathy.


I agreed with what you said in this post.

whats pissing off some folks is that to them it is about a whole lot more then just Bundy. Its about government overreach. They just aren't very good at expressing themselves and many of them have a history of bagging on liberals causes, such as the occupy movement, so that just adds to the noise.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Apr 27, 2014 - 08:06pm PT
+100 for BASE

Sara palin just got more headlines for bragging that she would waterboard terrorists if she was in charge. I wonder if she would waterboard this guy to see what he is up to? Or if she only meant raghead terrorists?
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Apr 27, 2014 - 08:11pm PT
Some of you sad-sacks are just miserable people intent on slandering others.

It ain't slander if its true, just saying

John M

climber
Apr 27, 2014 - 08:13pm PT
. It is a matter of asserting by way of ethical process.

is name calling ethical? Is belittling someone ethical?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 08:16pm PT

JTiss

Mountain climber
Sandog
Apr 27, 2014 - 08:25pm PT
"I can't imagine ANYONE doing that sort of thing for FREE..."

-------------------------------------------------------------


Nor could I ever imagine sending my rock shoes or mountaineering boots, postage due, to a boot cobbler and expect them to repair them for, FREE. Or do you accept those type orders on a regular basis, Mr. Locker?

J. Tisdale Jr.


Edit: Scanning through the various profiles of the posters on this and some of the other "OT" threads, many of them, Mr. Norton, have not one single TR to their name. Many of those individuals have no photo's. Some that do have photos, have absolutely nothing to do with climbing or mountaineering. Just plain nasty expose's of total Ad Hominem nonsense. Just an observation that is rather stunning to say the least.
John M

climber
Apr 27, 2014 - 08:25pm PT
why do you keep calling me Ken ?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 27, 2014 - 08:25pm PT
"Having worked with gang members, my understanding of extremists is that pushing their buttons only makes things worse. Empathy is about the only thing that I have found that helps with those who are reachable."

John's got it about right here. I suppose you need to figure out your motivation for posting something - is it to persuade, connect, make friends, find out something, vent, punish...?

We live in a punishment/reward society, and a guy like The Chief certainly filters his online persona through that template, but that has little to do with a human's basic, evolved needs. The results are predictably poor. It's a broad brush approach that lives and breaths on quick assumptions and defensiveness.

William Glasser posits a different approach that recognizes these needs (once survival needs are met, of course) as

1) love/acceptance/belonging

2) fun/learning/competence

3) power/significance/expertise

4) freedom/autonomy

I can be interesting to view someone's posts, as well as our own, with these basic needs in mind when trying to figure out motivation and objective.

The Chief seems to be shooing for # 3 here, albeit ineffectively. Perhaps needs 1, 2, and 4 are already met in other ways, however satisfying it may be to assume otherwise in the midst of that tit for tat.

Me? Good question, but I'm already making friends here, despite a genome that includes a large does of smartass, so 1's in play, as well as 3, of course - there's a lot of experience and expertise available here.



philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 08:30pm PT
Guys like Ron and Chuff profess that in their world Might makes Right and Power uber ales.
They respect only the power of armed insurrection and denigrate diplomacy, compromise and the Democratic process. And you want me to give them a reach around ball cupping so their feelings won't get hurt?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 27, 2014 - 08:38pm PT
Jtiss wrote: Nor could I ever imagine sending my rock shoes or mountaineering boots, postage due, to a boot cobbler and expect them to repair them for, FREE. Or do you accept those type orders on a regular basis, Mr. Locker?


Did you pay for his guiding service? I would think Locker give out "free" advice all the time when it comes to climbing shoes.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 27, 2014 - 08:43pm PT
^Philo - Well, I guess you'd have to know them pretty well personally to assess anything like that. People are complicated and they do love to play dress up for an audience.

If you were to 'objectively' survey what people actually care about here, you'd probably find an uncomfortable level of alignment.

I once watched an O'Reilly monologue where he was excoriating liberals for being charity cheapskates (giving a nod to Obama, who is actually pretty generous on that front).

I spent a few minutes researching O'Reilly's own giving. Well, it turns out he's fantastically generous, by any measure. Would anyone here like to guess (without Googling, of course) what his main charity focus is?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 08:45pm PT
If you were to 'objectively' survey what people actually care about here, you'd probably find an uncomfortable level of alignment.


Actually Tvash I think it would make a trippy Ven diagram.
JTiss

Mountain climber
Sandog
Apr 27, 2014 - 08:45pm PT
"Did you pay for his guiding service? I would think Locker give out "free" advice all the time when it comes to climbing shoes."
-----------------------------------------------------------------


With all due respect to my post, he, Rick, on two occasions, met me at the Alabama Hills on his off time and gave both me and my daughter some free on the rock instructions. For, Free. Now, could I take my damaged shoes or boots to Mr. Locker and have him repair them for the same cost? That was my question which appears to have gone over some heads.

J. Tisdale Jr.
John M

climber
Apr 27, 2014 - 08:46pm PT
Guys like Ron and Chuff profess that in their world Might makes Right and Power uber ales.
They respect only the power of armed insurrection and denigrate diplomacy, compromise and the Democratic process.

you are such a whiney little bitch. wah wahh.. ron and Chief don't respect my efforts at diplomacy. wah wah..

And you want me to give them a reach around ball cupping so their feelings won't get hurt?

that isn't what I meant, and you know it because I have told you multiple times, but whatever. Good luck with your "I'm just fighting the evils of the world with evil" persona. You are going to need it if the wrong person shows up in your life.

And Philo.. here is a piece of advice.. when you want to play nice, don't kick someone immediately after. You asked Chief to post some trip reports. You act like that was big of you, but at the same time you were being a dick. Some day thats going to get your head knocked off.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 08:48pm PT
I given away thousands of dollars worth of free electrical advise, diagnostics and service.
But it's not about me. And it's not about Lil Chuffer either.
Get it?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 27, 2014 - 08:51pm PT
O'Reilly apparently believes his ideology and ethics are in alignment. There is no doubt he's a supreme as#@&%e - one minute of watching him do this thing with his guests reveals that - plus allegations of sexual harrassment, and...the list is long. BUT - even the worlds largest diameter as#@&%e can dump a mountain of money into a good cause.

What is that cause? Guesses?

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 08:54pm PT
Hey Locker it's not about you GET IT?
;-)


And I charged you triple.
And I got it. lol
JTiss

Mountain climber
Sandog
Apr 27, 2014 - 08:55pm PT
Well my bad for thinking that giving others one's professional time and experience for "Free" was actually something special. But I suppose my attempt in transmitting some positiveness into this thread, was of course rather a long shot to say the least.

I will pass the word along here in San Marcos and down in San Diego that people can now come by your shop there in JTree Mr. Locker, and drop off their shoes or boots and not be charged for your kind expert services. That is by your own admission and hopefully we can hold you to your word. Thank you sir.

J. Tisdale Jr.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 08:57pm PT
JTis???
This must be Lil Chuffie in disguise, same faulty logic and misinterpretations.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 27, 2014 - 08:59pm PT
O'Reilly's number one charity cause is homelessness in NYC.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Apr 27, 2014 - 09:02pm PT
Yeah Base, RR valley Grant Canyon #6 flowed at 4800bpd for awhile, setting off a mini boom in and around RR valley. I agree the basin, range, volcanic geology is complex and a lot of the oil was cooked in place resulting in those cubes of near asphalt you talked about. There is another producing field in long term operation by small time producers 100-150 miles n.e. of RR valley. I believe Nobles strategy is horizontal drilling and fracking to produce near or in the source rock=Chainman Shale, which can be up to 1500' thick in parts of northern and central Nv. Do you have any preliminary info on their first two Elko county wells in northeast NV.

As far as the range war being waged against cattlemen in the west, particularly Nevada, it's primarily over a very rare commodity in those parts-H2O. The states biggest gold mine,Las Vegas, has a huge thirst and they are acquiring water rights by water ever means necessary.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 27, 2014 - 09:06pm PT
Edit: Scanning through the various profiles of the posters on this and some of the other "OT" threads, many of them, Mr. Norton, have not one single TR to their name

oh my!

well aren't you the clever one to look at "certain" poster's pictures and posting history!

and you picked me out, for special reasons we won't talk about...

because, sh#t head, in your world ya just HAVE to post a TR to have real CRED!

doesn't work like that, special newcomer, now get back to kissing chief's ass and STFU

JTiss

Mountain climber
Sandog
Apr 27, 2014 - 09:11pm PT
Thank you Mr. Locker. Will do if I or any my friends ever get up your way. Hopefully some time soon. Unfortunately life and my daily profession down here these days keeps me tied to short half and one day trips to the Santee, Campos and Boulevard boulder areas. Quiet but challenging. The Gorge doesn't suite me all that well.

J. Tisdale Jr.
JTiss

Mountain climber
Sandog
Apr 27, 2014 - 09:20pm PT
"because, sh#t head, in your world ya just HAVE to post a TR to have real CRED!"
---------------------------------------------------------------


I beg your pardon Mr. Norton? I was just passing on what Mr.Philo was insisting that others, The Chief in particular, should do. All to redeem themselves of their past posting and self defamation of character. I can see that my presence here will only turn into another target for the negativity that persists. So, with that, I say good bye and good cheers to all of you good hearted souls on this thread.

J. Tisdale Jr.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 09:21pm PT
That was so polite.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 27, 2014 - 09:28pm PT
John M said
whats pissing off some folks is that to them it is about a whole lot more then just Bundy. Its about government overreach. They just aren't very good at expressing themselves and many of them have a history of bagging on liberals causes, such as the occupy movement, so that just adds to the noise.

Government overreach sucks. So do rude LEO's who think their sh#t doesn't stink. I'm sure I would agree with a lot of their frustrations if they weren't choosing the most inane possible cause to champion about it. Black people deal with a lot of rude LEOs. If Ron and Co. could learn to just acknowledge racism when it comes up they'd probably find a lot of support from black folks about how the BLM agents were being overly aggressive.

Still doesn't change the simple fact that the BLM is doing exactly what it is supposed to be doing and those honkeys screaming trying to play victim are some hypocritical motherf*#kers.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 27, 2014 - 09:30pm PT
It's interesting to note that O'Reilly and his FOX producers do not, at all, get along. FOX attempts to control O'Reilly's message, and O'Reilly basically does whatever he wants. There is continual tension there.

This is from an expose I read by one of The Factor's employees. Very interesting.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 27, 2014 - 09:31pm PT
Also, Megan Kelly (Mygyn Kylly?) has a JD.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Apr 27, 2014 - 09:34pm PT
JTiss - how about name rank and serial number

You get a lot more respect if you pull rank around here, just ask Chuckles

Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 27, 2014 - 09:38pm PT
None of what I've posted applies to nutters, of course.

All bets are off when dealing with a nutter. If you choose to engage with one, good luck wit dat.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 09:39pm PT
TVash what is a JD and why does she have one?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 27, 2014 - 09:44pm PT
You are such a whiney little bitch...You act like that was big of you, but at the same time you were being a dick. Some day thats going to get your head knocked off.

Oh Moosie, you're so butch, baby.

BTW, what does your kindergarten cop routine have to do with the racist deadbeat seditious rancher in question?

Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 27, 2014 - 09:47pm PT
Law degree (Juris Doctor)

You'll have to ask her.

Dress up in a Karl Rove suit first to improve your chances of a response.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 09:51pm PT
Elcap that was of all people John M that said that.
Before he edited it it ended with the words "perhaps by me"
Sounds threatening glad he edited it out so I wouldn't be scared.
I already have Rong wanting to put a beat down on me.
John M

climber
Apr 27, 2014 - 09:55pm PT
I Don't want you to be scared Philo.. I want you to understand that I don't like the way that you speak down to me. I also don't like that you purposely misstate what I have said numerous times. How many times do I have to tell you that I am not asking you to kiss their ass before you get it? Huh?

Or are you just that dense?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 10:01pm PT
Best of luck and good vibes for a solid recovery Norton.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 27, 2014 - 10:06pm PT
I don't like the way that you speak down to me....

Or are you just that dense?

LOLZ. It's the age-old pot/kettle routine from Big Butch Moosie.


On a side note, it's beyond comical that Joe Numpty Tisdale III, Esq is moaning about credibility and TRs when he's not even a climber, gets guided up the walk ups.
John M

climber
Apr 27, 2014 - 10:08pm PT
I am talking down to him because I am fed up with the way he talks to me. Get it? And piss off elcap. I aint talking to you. Philo feels free to insult me, so I am dishing it back.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 27, 2014 - 10:11pm PT
This is the worst vitriol I've seen in a long time. Bring it up out of the mud.
(mixed metaphors)
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 27, 2014 - 10:12pm PT
Hey, Moosie? How about this? Blow me, tough guy. Your hall monitor routine is tired, brah. And please don't hit me with your purse. Because I know you are super butch, a true force to be reckoned with.

Anybody want to ask if I've ever posted climbing content? You know, being the mesasure of credibility and all.
John M

climber
Apr 27, 2014 - 10:16pm PT
ya got me elcap.

Edit I'm an old man who shouldn't be posturing up like he was 25. Thanks for the wake up call Elcap.

wouldn't want to get my new man purse all dirty coming upside someones head now.. would I ?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 27, 2014 - 11:06pm PT
Philo writes:

"John if you would rather read (without rebuttal) the ranting lies of Chaz, TGT, Bluering, Ron Anderson and the Chief..."



I'd be interested to know of any lie I posted on here about anything.

I'd appreciate it if you would go back and edit your post, Philo, to correct it for accuracy.
overwatch

climber
Apr 27, 2014 - 11:10pm PT
Maybe posting tr is not a person's style. I don't usually even carry a camera. I appreciate the ones that do though
overwatch

climber
Apr 27, 2014 - 11:17pm PT
I am what most of you would call a gun guy... I have worked as a firearms trainer for everyone from civilian to tier 1 military. I just do not understand why the pro gun people are not for more stringent background checks and training at least commensurate with getting a driver's license. Some of the worst weapons handlers which is far more important than marksmanship, were cops.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 27, 2014 - 11:23pm PT
I just do not understand why the pro gun people are not for more stringent background checks

because they irrationally fear that if background checks are expanded then it follows
that someday the guvmint will come to their house and take every one of their guns

we saw this right after the Sandy Hook massacre, when a test vote in the Senate to expand could not get enough votes, our politicians are scared to death of the NRA's media arm
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 11:30pm PT
Chaz you were right I wrongly bundled you in with a group of less reputable posters.
I am sorry for that unfair slight.
If I go back and edit my post I will be accused of editing. Oh the horrors.
I hope it suffices that I admit I was wrong and regret the taint.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 27, 2014 - 11:35pm PT
Really Rong? A Fox "News" opinion commentator?

Do you intend that to bolster your "case" such as it is, or continue to reveal you as a fact-challenged dupe?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 27, 2014 - 11:37pm PT
Thanks, Philo!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 11:39pm PT
Chaz I may not always agree with you (actually many times I do) but you are in a whole different class than the bottom feeders I shouldn't have lumped you in with. I really am sorry.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 27, 2014 - 11:44pm PT
Hey Philo, F*#k you.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 11:57pm PT
Aw I love you too Blew.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 28, 2014 - 01:10am PT
I had a work pal named Ed. Hyper liberal…and he loved guns. AK47, sawed off shotguns, 9mms, teflon tipped rounds…he had a healthy collection. They were basically toys. I went shooting with him in some of our local clear cuts. It was a hoot. He was quite safe.

He didn't trust our government - not in the Tea Bagger Koo Koo Klock absolute sense, but in a healthy, skeptical, intelligent sense. His mistrust was based on copious data. He could list specific, historically accurate beefs - and well thought out remedies. He realized our criminal justice system was half bullshit and wasn't just at all. He also had a realistic view of who filled out the ranks of law enforcement. Some good. Some not so good.

This manifested itself in his guns. Hence, the sawed off. It was kind of his own personal 'f*#k you, State statement', but he wisely kept it on the QT.

He would never dream of intimidating anyone by open carrying, however. Why? Because he wasn't a self centered prick. He also wasn't paranoid. Guns, for him, were like M80s for a teenager. They were just good, clean fun - not a device to f*#k with other people with.

The In Your Face gun nuts make the world a worse place. Ed did not. He did not subscribe to the kind of bullshit arguments being foisted these days in support of unrestricted gun rights. He was fine with all that, even if he bent the rules in a few places. He recognized that gun violence was a big issue in this country, and supported appropriate restrictions to mitigate that issue.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 28, 2014 - 01:29am PT
"Big whoop. I'm spooning a Barrett 50 cal. Basically, I could kill a building"

Archer - Season 4, Episode 8

JTiss

Mountain climber
Sandog
Apr 28, 2014 - 01:38am PT
"I'm sorry, but I'm suspicious"
-------------------------------------------------------------------


No need for either. Unless of course you are sincere on either matter. Being suspicious that you are sorry. Or sorry that you are suspicious.

Mr. Norton, sorry to hear about your recent spinal injury. I sincerely hope that you heal quickly so as to return to your goals in climbing. I am very interested in reading that TR you promised me.

I don't know about being The Chief's "best client". My daughter and I were just two of his many satisfied clients from what I understand. Fact is I would allow anyone of my three children and Wife to be under his care, anytime, anywhere if either ever requested to partake in any of the trips his employer offers.

As far as the guns and ammo discussion here, yup, I got my share. Shotguns, long rifles and handguns. My three children and Wife are well trained and versed in use of all of them. It is one of those activities that allows us some quality family time together other than our hiking and camping adventures. My youngest is the most accurate of us all. I encourage him and my other children to continue with their marksmanship practice as often as they want. Nice to have a certified firearms training center near by with a beautifully run range that we pertain to.

J. Tisdale Jr.

Edit: Which model Barret do you own Mr. TVASH? And what specific brand ammunition are you firing through it? Please do post photos.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 28, 2014 - 02:19am PT
I can see that my presence here will only turn into another target for the negativity that persists. So, with that, I say good bye and good cheers to all of you good hearted souls on this thread.

Thought you were leavin? lol

Fact is I would allow anyone of my three children and Wife to be under his care, anytime, anywhere if either ever requested to partake in any of the trips his employer offers

No one cares.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 28, 2014 - 08:31am PT
JTiss you are more than welcome to start a the Chief appreciation thread.
But this thread isn't it.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Apr 28, 2014 - 08:45am PT
I just do not understand why the pro gun people are not for more stringent background checks

because they irrationally fear that if background checks are expanded then it follows that someday the guvmint will come to their house and take every one of their guns

No, it's because the gun industry is very rationally aware that universal background checks would immediately cut into that proportion of their sales that are straw purchases. The less immediate reduction in associated crime would also reduce the legitimate self-defense market, therefore the gun industry needs to create an irrational fear to maintain sales.

The gun industry has no commercial interest in reducing gun crime. That's capitalism with a capital "R" for you.

TE


HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 28, 2014 - 08:47am PT
No, it's because the gun industry is very rationally aware that universal background checks would immediately cut into that proportion of their sales that are straw purchases. The less immediate reduction in associated crime would also reduce the legitimate self-defense market, therefore the gun industry needs to create an irrational fear to maintain sales.

And that irrational fear is that the guvmint will take their guns. Don't disagree with people who you agree with. Interesting that gun ownership has now become a self-perpetuating principle. You have to own guns to protect yourself from the government who wants to take your guns so buy more guns,
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 28, 2014 - 09:36am PT
**
Elon Musk to file suit against US Gov.**

http://io9.com/elon-musk-spacex-will-file-suit-against-the-u-s-gover-1568027055

Musk said it costs four times more to launch ULA's Delta or Atlas rocket vs. a SpaceX Falcon rocket – an agreement he claimed is costing US taxpayers billions of dollars for no reason. "Each launch by ULA costs American taxpayers roughly $400 million per launch. They are insanely expensive. I don't know why they are so expensive." The Falcon 9 lists for about $60 Million per launch, but rises to about $100 million after the certification costs are included, Musk explained.

"So yes the certification does make our Falcon 9 rocket more expensive. But not 400% more expensive."

"Our rockets are 21st century design," said Musk to obtain the most efficiency. He said ULA's designs date back to the 90s and earlier with heritage hardware. To date the Falcon 9 has already been used three times under a $1.6 Billion contract with NASA to launch the private SpaceX Dragon resupply vessel to the International Space Station (ISS) – most recently a week ago during the April 18 blastoff of the SpaceX CRS-3 mission from Cape Canaveral. It is also being used to launch highly expensive communications satellites like SES-8 and Thaicom-6 for private companies to geostationary orbits.

"It just seems odd that if our vehicle is good enough for NASA and supporting a $100 billion space station, and it's good enough for launching NASA science satellites, for launching complex commercial geostationary satellites, then there's no reasonable basis for it not being capable of launching something quite simple like a GPS satellite," said Musk.

"Our only option is to file a protest."


This is how intelligent civilized people redress grievances with the Gov, they follow the rule of law. But the Rightwing will most certainly be opposed to this space cadet furiner tryin to save US money.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 28, 2014 - 09:39am PT
"Negroes," Bundy further observed, abort their babies and put their men in prisons. Young black males were in trouble, he said, because they hadn't been taught to pick cotton.

Obviously, there's no defending Bundy's remarks. Pundits and politicians, including most notably Sean Hannity, Sen. Rand Paul and Texas Gov. Rick Perry, quickly distanced themselves from the Bundy comments, though not, curiously, from his objections to the government's authority over grazing lands.

Well, of course they would disavow racist remarks. But they also never should have aligned themselves with someone who not only flouts the law but also has armed himself against government agents, indicating his willingness to protest through violence.

The real issue here is the last sentence. Many Buddy supporters were (and still are because they've taken an Oath) willing to resort to violence against law enforcement officers.

That makes them dangerous and, in my view, deserving of any amount of vitriol they receive here.
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Apr 28, 2014 - 09:54am PT
That makes them dangerous and, in my view, deserving of any amount of vitriol they receive here.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 28, 2014 - 09:59am PT
That's why the standoff in Bunkerstan is such a ludicrous display of ignorance.
These Oaf Creapers have vowed to kill Federal agents and other American citizens because they don't believe in the rule of law or American citizenship.

I've been involved in many peaceful protests for actual causes. The rule of law and non-violence was always the rule of conduct. Nothing makes a social movement lose credibility faster than resorting to violence or threat of violence. We resorted to peaceful protests and stuck to our (forgive me the pun) guns. Even though the same type of Un-Americans mobbed in Nevadastan now harassed and abused us then. I've been threatened, pushed around, yelled obscenities at and spit on by the oh so polite political right. The Bush goon squad threw my 70+ year old mother in law to the pavement and threatened her with a taser. Her aged husband was put in a choke hold by another political operative of the far right wing. These jack booted jack wads were not in any uniform or official designation they were hired thugs payed to oppress any dissent. My step folks crime? Daring to wear a Greenpeace shirt at a political rally in Colorado Springs. Now with the White House occupied by a Black Man that is supposedly coming to take all our guns implant us with rfid chips and lock us up in FEMA camps the 2nd amendment troglodytes can open carry assault weapons and bullseye shirts to political rallies and were are supposed to be OK with that. The OWS protesters were abused and incited and still maintained a huge population of peaceful protesters in spite of the denigration from the rightwingers. We followed the rule of law and have made change happen in this country many times.

Why can't these pseudo-patriot cowpokers follow the rule of law instead of the "might makes right" mantra that fuels their delusional intentions? After all their Billionaire puppet masters used their influence to pervert and subvert our political process but they did it by following the laws. Of course it was the laws the bought and we paid for but the point is they didn't use threats of armed insurrection to attain their goals. Laws can be changed but not at the point of a gun.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 28, 2014 - 10:21am PT
You are. In fact. Going to die.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Apr 28, 2014 - 10:32am PT
J. Tisdale Jr.

Welcome to the taco!

So JTiss isn't a Chief avi?
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 28, 2014 - 10:45am PT
Not only is Jtiss an unbiased observer, but actual proof that Chuff has a friend outside of this strange little therapy circle.

That's kinda naive, not sure why someone would sign up just to be a character witness for the biggest assh0le on the forum. Unbiased? Really?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 28, 2014 - 10:53am PT
What with this TR crap and how it relates to a discussion like this??
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 28, 2014 - 10:57am PT
Ron...stop with the sniping...eh..? rj
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Apr 28, 2014 - 11:00am PT
FYI to all you anti gunnuts: I had to take an extensive all day class on how to "sniff out" straw purchases from an ATFE rep. HE went over the various techniques employed and if we detect the slightest hint of a straw purchase we shut that sale down immediately. The company i work for has one of the highest grades from ATFE for this very thing. We are not ONE BIT reserved in loosing a sale due to a straw purchase and our job is defined and counts on that as well. And our paper work on the back ground checks is checked three times before filing.

This is the way it should be. Much better for everyone if the industry polices itself.
Something like the Newtown school shooting, a couple hundred years ago, a mob would've gone over to the gun store, hung the owners and burnt it out.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 28, 2014 - 11:11am PT
Morning Ron. I commend you and the business that hired you in your efforts to exercise caution and accountability in gun sales.

But I am taken by an earlier statement you made that sounds peculiarly threatening.

Apr 27, 2014 - 08:56am PT
Nevadans are buying guns at a RAPID pace. In Fact the new store in Carson is headed for the #1 position of a LARGE franchise and we will be there within another week. So you B&B crowds should steer clear of this state from now and into the foreseeable future. It is after all, what you fear. things like freedom from oppressive govt actions will NO LONGER BE TOLERATED here. You in B& B can have those with our thanks. Hope you enjoy what you get. For us here in the Great Basin state - we shall be enjoying our strengths. We shall covet our OPEN lands and our first amendment rights areas shall include any where we step breath or fart thank you.

Tell me then if you would please when will the unforeseeable future be when I can feel safe coming back to Nevada?
Do I need an armed guard to go repeat some of my old routes?
I had resolved to make my 13th major comeback on my old choss fest the Resolution Arete.
Should I be worried? Will I be a target?
Should average American families who aren't packin' avoid Vegas for the foreseeable future?
Do you think the Casino biz will appreciate any loss of revenue when people decide that vacationing in Beirut might be safer? Question does the Casino biz have any guns?
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Apr 28, 2014 - 11:12am PT
A 'Realman' would have challenged the mouse in hand to paw combat.
;^)
overwatch

climber
Apr 28, 2014 - 11:13am PT
All those guys in suits are probably packin'. Easily concealed. Pretty easy to get a CCW in Nevada too.

That's right one bb one kill.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Apr 28, 2014 - 11:14am PT
But Newtown, the Mom bought the gunz for her looney boy, amirite? Wouldn't that be a proxy sale?

Funny (weird) how it turned out. The NRA and the gun industry never had it so good. Sales and memberships went through the roof. Aiming gunz at Feds is ok now.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 28, 2014 - 11:16am PT
Also, I not sure how your chickenshit sniper man hiding behind concrete somehow is not analogous with the spiiker. The net effect is the same a hidden coercive force influencing the outcome of a mandated task.
Uhhh Yup.

The so called Eco-terrorist have killed no one.
The radical right on the other hand not so gud.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 28, 2014 - 11:20am PT
If you exercise your mouth like you do your fingers Philo, frankly, id think you should be worried wherever you go 24/7..And YES casinos have armed security..

Ron I know you are all over the 2nd Ammendment but maybe you should read the 1st one.

But in other words unless I am packing equal fire power I should consider myself persona non grata in Nevada ? But if I come armed like an LA bank robber I will be welcomed with open... um... arms?
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Apr 28, 2014 - 11:21am PT
maybe we should round up all the gun nuts and put em in FEMA camps

That's going to be kind of a pain in the ass since they're all, you know, armed

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 28, 2014 - 11:23am PT
Does the water buffalo fear the gnat?





Who's Drivin'?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 28, 2014 - 11:32am PT
So "Tisdale" shows up. Some claim a Chuff sock puppet, some buy it at face value.

Here's what I see, two folks who just happen...purely by coincidence, I'm sure...to use the same f*#ked up grammar/word useage. To wit -

"Tisale":
Nice to have a certified firearms training center near by with a beautifully run range that we pertain to.

and Huff-n-Chuff:

there has been not one criminal incident of any sorts. The house I live in (4 Bdrm w/Det 3 Car Garage and 1 Acre of land) pertained to the active and then retired IC Sherrif.

Hi Chuff. Nice sock puppet you're runnin' there.

fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 28, 2014 - 11:32am PT
lol the corner of Patton and Gandhi

always wondered what the story was there
overwatch

climber
Apr 28, 2014 - 11:35am PT
Yin and Yang
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 28, 2014 - 11:39am PT
I used to live in a huge fancy house there. But what happens there stays there so sadly I can tell no stories.
But no socialist cattle grazed there.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 28, 2014 - 11:47am PT
Sounds like a re-education camp to me.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Apr 28, 2014 - 11:48am PT
Environmentalists supporting million acre solar farms in desert tortoise habitat

Philo using "socialist" as a derogatory term

It's like ST bizarro world

Next we'll find out Dr F is a retired navy SEAL
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 28, 2014 - 11:55am PT
Damn, Elcap. That's some solid internet detective work.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 28, 2014 - 12:00pm PT
Why don't you patriots march on Wall Street and the Bankers?
It seems obvious to me that they are the real threat to American sovereignty.
The BLM are just soldiers in the system. And they have become armed in an insane hissy fit response to the boogie man of nineoneone under Bushboi. Remember the Bush Administration?. Didn't you guys cheer him on and call all of US anti-War posters pussys and anti-American and traitor?
.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Apr 28, 2014 - 12:06pm PT
You mean NYC? Do you have any idea what would happen if they try that sh#t here? It would be lulz.

When the "Rolling Thunder" guise come through NYC, they shut down the streets and give them a police escort right through the town. Just keep moving d00ds. NYC police know how to break a crowd up and crush the pieces.



JTiss

Mountain climber
Sandog
Apr 28, 2014 - 12:35pm PT
“Again, something substantive like a guiding certificate would be a good start. Have you got a website with all your guides credentials noted for your clients?”
----------------------------------------------------------------


My goodness. Some of you gentlemen are up early and back at it without missing a note. Certainly some do not have to deal with the complex daily responsibilities of a family nor a profession. You must be retired. Time is limited as my appointment schedule this morning and the rest of the day is rather hectic. So I will contribute the following and possibly return this evening if quality time with my family permits.

I am not sure I understand your question Mr. Kay. I personally am not at all affiliated with his employer nor the daily operations of any guide service. I was a client and hope to be one again in the near future. Time permitting. I have no say as far as the content of the website for the service he is employed by. I am a simple procurement contractor for the Department of Defense here in the local San Diego area.

I propose the following question to you Mr. Kay. When was the last time you entered the offices of your physician, dentist, attorney or even your local law enforcement, and demanded to see their certifications prior to requesting and then receiving their services? I am not aware of anyone that is compelled to nor does this practice on a regular basis. I never requested any evidence of his certifications. I did do my research after he and his employer’s company were highly recommended to me by a close friend as I indicated in my original post.

Mr. Philo, I could certainly shed some enthusiastic accolades your way. But I do not know you personally. I am not going to judge you based on your behavior on this internet forum. That wouldn't be fair in my opinion. Don’t you think?

I find it rather enlightening and very humorous that some are proposing that I am "The Chief" in sheep's garments. You can rest assured that is not the case. But you can believe what you wish. I did email him last night. He informed me that he will not be present on this forum any time soon. You have banished him to the four corners of the globe. Most likely never to return. Do I hear an Amen?

On a final note, I will contribute my following opinion on what appears to be a hot issue here. The gun industry is like any other this country has developed over the past century and a half. Purely supply and demand. One must also consider the manufactures of guns that are available on the market today. A large quantity come from other countries and are imported. So is much of the ammunition that is currently available. Are we to curtail the importation of all those products in order to mitigate what some here believe to be the foundation of today’s current crime issue nationwide? It would be like the War in Drugs. Call it the War on Guns maybe? That would be one difficult and very costly task for the federal gov’t to pursue. I believe the American taxpayers money can be more wisely spent in taking care of the citizens and their fundamental needs. Don’t you?

My busy schedule calls me. You gentlemen have a good and peaceful day. Some should consider smiling and possibly getting out of the confines you may be in. Even go climb. Surely wish I could. Cheers.

J. Tisdale Jr.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 28, 2014 - 12:37pm PT
"the gun industry is very rationally aware that universal background checks would immediately cut into that proportion of their sales that are straw purchases."

The entire gun rights debate in one sentence.

The rest is fluff.


philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 28, 2014 - 12:52pm PT
This thread iz awesome. It just keeps giving and giving like the reassuring drip, drip, drip of gonnorhea.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 28, 2014 - 01:00pm PT
The purpose Bruce, was to aim at GOVT snipers who were aiming into the protesters area. The purpose was to show an equal and opposite force if needed.

Ron, you should be put into some kind of institution immediately. You are a deranged, sorry human being.

Anyone who defends this lunatic should be ashamed of themselves.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 28, 2014 - 01:01pm PT
I think this dude should pay Cliven's grazing fee.....


Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 28, 2014 - 01:10pm PT
That's some solid internet detective work.

No real work required. I remember tons of useless trivia all the way back to childhood. So when the little Cheev posted the first mangling of "pertain" I took it as a WTF?, and wrote it off much like when Blurring tries to drop some multi-syllable words in a poor attempt to appear educated, and completely f*#ks up the useage...but it stuck in my head.

But when it appears twice, in short order...no detective work required other than paging back a few to grab the quotes. The odds that there are actually two people both posting here, both with completely inappropriate use of an uncommon word? Well, slim done left town.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 28, 2014 - 01:10pm PT
The purpose was for militants that don't believe the American government exists to aim at American citizens they considered the enemy because they worked for said government.

Meanwhile...

Tesla Hiring At Second California Facility, Ex-Chrysler Plant
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1091734_tesla-hiring-at-second-california-facility-ex-chrysler-plant

While its proposed $5 billion "Gigafactory" grabs headlines, Tesla Motors has quietly been setting other expansion plans in motion as well.

The company is seeking workers for a second California facility, according to a report in Bloomberg last week.

In addition to the former GM-Toyota assembly plant in Fremont, California, that currently builds the Model S electric car, Tesla plans to take over an ex-Chrysler facility in Lathrop, 52 miles northeast of its Fremont factory.

The carmaker has already been granted building permits to modify the 431,000-square-foot facility, and currently lists 32 job openings there on its website.

Tesla has not discussed its plans for the facility, which was formerly used for distribution by Chrysler's Mopar parts and accessories division.

Tesla Motors, Palo Alto, CaliforniaThe company told Bloomberg that it has signed leases for more than 625,000 square feet of California real estate over the last two months, not including its sales and service centers.
While Tesla appears committed to California, its next major production investment will likely be outside the Golden State. Tesla has said California is out of the running for the much-discussed Gigafactory, which will produce large quantities of lithium-ion batteries for future electric cars.

That may be because--despite Tesla's success so far--Silicon Valley isn't ideal for green carmakers.

California's strict environmental regulations could also make the world's largest lithium-ion cell factory a non-starter.

Instead, Tesla has named four states--Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, and Texas--as the most-likely candidates.

Expect Tesla to reveal its plans for the Lathrop parts facility closer to its opening date.



So I'll say to the bullet heads in the desert Get a Job ya bums. Or would you rather scare away a "job creator" at gun point.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 28, 2014 - 01:18pm PT
awwww Ron
you big tough guy. Blew a mouse's arse out his nose with a .177
I presume the mouse wasn't in your house or garage or barn because that would have been really stupid.
So you're frightened of a mouse in your field? Can't keep your garage and house mouse-tight?
I leave the mice around my place alone. Excellent food source for the foxes and bobcats who hang around here. Or perhaps I should shoot them as well. I'd love to have me a foxtail hat and a bobcat pelt on the wall.
Go ahead, call me a Bleeding Heart Wuss Liberal (and throw the c**t word in for good measure if you like)
Dredging up the whackos who bombed bio tech companies was a great straw horse. Proven dangerous radicals of any stripe should be locked away.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 28, 2014 - 01:28pm PT
Big bad Ron killed a mouse. What a little, sick dip sh#t you are.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 28, 2014 - 01:32pm PT
Not only did he blast the little rodent with his big gun he then stuffed it's carcass with a Pillsbury poppin' fresh biskit and blasted it again. It's mounted behind the assault rifle counter at the gun shop where Ron polishes bullets.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 28, 2014 - 01:37pm PT
Hey Ron I've got a friend in an African country that doesn't allow gun sales to citizens. His hut is over run with rodents. I'd like to help him out, how much for a sawed off shot gun?
Look in your background check files under R. Weaver for comparative pricing.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 28, 2014 - 01:42pm PT
mice and their feces and damaging chewing will not be tolerate
agreed
yet I don't have much of a problem.
You could always get a couple of cats.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 28, 2014 - 01:43pm PT
Why HT? Do cats make fer better huntin'?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 28, 2014 - 01:43pm PT
LIke most wet cities, we have Norway rats here, and occasionally I face the unpleasant prospect of dispatching them with a trap, a cat, or, when all else fails, a shovel.

I hate killing them. Its an awful feeling, but there is no alternative. Once they're nesting in your attic, they become a much larger, more intractable problem.

I actually apologize to them afterwards. Hoaky, and entirely for me, I know, but I don't take killing anything lightly, and I certainly don't celebrate or enjoy it.

I don't fault or resent the rats. I admire them - they're hardy, adaptable, smart, and amazing for their speed and agility.

In the backcountry, its not uncommon to be marauded by bushy tailed wood rates or other snaffles. I never harm them - and anyone who tries will have to deal with me, first. After all, we're guests on their turf in that situation.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 28, 2014 - 01:51pm PT
Hey Ron I chewed on it and no joke it was most excellent. I loved the intricate finger picking and bent notes. Thanks for posting up. It's nice to see a different side to you for a change.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 28, 2014 - 02:01pm PT
See we can play nice when there is nice stuff to play with.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 28, 2014 - 02:07pm PT
I make sure that doctors went to a credible medical school, are board certified, and have no disciplinary actions against them

No kidding. In this day of internet records, you'd be pretty lazy not to do so. I chose my current primary care doc by narrowing by cities, then weeding out based on the quality of their med school and patient reviews. One was removed from consideration due to an outstanding disciplinary action from years prior. And I've been very happy with my choice.

To pretend that people don't check these things just because YOU are too lazy to do it is kind of silly.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 28, 2014 - 02:11pm PT
I did email him last night. He informed me that he will not be present on this forum any time soon. You have banished him to the four corners of the globe. Most likely never to return.

Q4P

now run along mr. important. you have bigger and better things to than 'defend' your 'friend' from a bunch of no TR-postin' no-family-havin' time-wastin' retirees. and don't be too surprised if no one cares whether you can fit ST into your incredibly valuable free time.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 28, 2014 - 02:26pm PT
JTiss asked
I propose the following question to you Mr. Kay. When was the last time you entered the offices of your physician, dentist, attorney or even your local law enforcement, and demanded to see their certifications prior to requesting and then receiving their services? I am not aware of anyone that is compelled to nor does this practice on a regular basis. I never requested any evidence of his certifications. I did do my research after he and his employer’s company were highly recommended to me by a close friend as I indicated in my original post.

Hahaha what? Doctors, dentists and lawyers hang their credentials framed on the friggin wall of their office. And they are most certainly compelled to produce proof of them if asked. Police officers are required to carry badges with a unique ID and they are compelled to divulge that information to a citizen if asked. I'm not following whatever attention seeking derail you are responding to but you need some better arguments for whomever is actually reading your multiparagraph off topic posts.
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Apr 28, 2014 - 02:32pm PT
Elcap: Hi Chuff. Nice sock puppet you're runnin' there.


maybe it's his wife sticking up for him again

so I haven't checked in on you old farts in a few days. did Chief get some more sand in his vagina and run off again?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 28, 2014 - 02:32pm PT
That's a real Sierra classic. Great climb, but wow, the UVs up there are fierce for us fishbellywhities up here.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 28, 2014 - 02:53pm PT
Norton
you must have been sleeping. That's the sweetest insult I've heard from anita
you go grrrrl

Ron. great music and tale. I knew there's a nugget of humanity in your depths somewhere!
Just kidding. You ARE a contradiction at times.
JTiss

Mountain climber
Sandog
Apr 28, 2014 - 03:15pm PT
"Doctors, dentists and lawyers hang their credentials framed on the friggin wall of their office."
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Break for lunch and time for quick response.

Excellent point. As memory serves me correct, all the guides certifications are readily available and hanging in the employers office. Myself and family have been visiting the same physicians and dentist going on 15 years. So I never considered asking them for their certifications. They are all well known in the community. Our family dentist is my brother-in-law and two others attend the same weekly services we do. You are also spot on that all their credentials are hanging in their offices. Never really thought about that. Bad example I suppose.

Talk about conspiracy theories. My word Mr. Elcap. The coincidence factor does impose some suspicion I suppose. I would be scratching my head also. But, rest assured that your theory is just that. It is your option to believe what you wish to. Free country and all.

Mr. Kay asked about gun regulations. At last count, there are well over 400 something local, state and federal laws regulating all firearms in this country. Probably more. I propose we enforce the one's that are currently on the books and not impose more. I assume it is a difficult enough task for all the law enforcement agencies in this country to keep up with the current laws and then have to enforce them all. A tedious and difficult task to say the least. Adding to that already extensive list would only make it more difficult than it already has to be. And far more complex. Don't you think Mr. Kay?


J. Tisdale Jr.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 28, 2014 - 03:16pm PT
You are still a whack job Ron. Go play with your guns.
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Apr 28, 2014 - 03:27pm PT
Norton: I am really an old sweaty guy
overwatch

climber
Apr 28, 2014 - 03:39pm PT
Pertain and its meaning aren't exactly mensa material. If Tissy is the chief then holy schizophrenia! Or good tradecraft

Oh man! Locker you're killing me...more high caliber work
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Apr 28, 2014 - 07:53pm PT
until now
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 28, 2014 - 08:44pm PT
No wonder Dr. F hates republicans...
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Apr 28, 2014 - 09:11pm PT
is BK just sock puppet for JB or vice versa? I mean, supertopo logic and them both being North American and all…
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 28, 2014 - 10:27pm PT
Brennan..I was talking about Doc F. peering out of George Romney's toilet...I would never ever diss a drywaller...Snowballing is legal in Canada...? rj
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 28, 2014 - 10:38pm PT
In that case...Drywallers huck..
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 28, 2014 - 10:46pm PT
This is what happens with extremist, anti-government militia members:

Threats made against Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) are being investigated by federal law enforcement, Politico reported Monday, citing "people familiar with the matter."

Politico's sources said that threats were made against Reid following his numerous criticisms of Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy and his backers, who he described as "domestic terrorists." Reid's security detail has been increased as a result, the report said.

“We are currently looking into threatening statements made against Sen. Reid as part of an ongoing investigation,” a U.S. Capitol Police spokesperson told the news outlet.

Reid has been one of Bundy's most outspoken critics after the rancher became a conservative hero for facing off with the federal government over grazing fees. In addition to the "domestic terrorists" comment, he called Bundy "a hateful racist" after the rancher's views about black people became public.

Reid has also been the subject of conspiracy theories because of his relationship with a top Bureau of Land Management official. The agency was at the forefront of the Bundy Ranch dispute.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 28, 2014 - 10:57pm PT
So Ron, are you for or against, the threats being made? Which boob are you referring to the Nevada guy or the Kentucky guy?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 28, 2014 - 11:10pm PT
Ron..do you have link to the Reid investigation??



Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Apr 29, 2014 - 02:43am PT
Bob D'A, you and philo should run for office

You have some great ideas and a knack for communication

I assume you both have since you're big into civic responsibility
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 29, 2014 - 03:56am PT
No, Ron doesn't have links to an investigation, because he is Rong.

he just hates Reid, because he won the democratic election for office. Rong hates democracy, just like he hates the US.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 29, 2014 - 04:03am PT
Calling them domestic terrorists was asking for it.
Discounting of course the fact that's exactly what they are.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 29, 2014 - 04:08am PT
Ron I hope you are prepared to be very disappointed. This situation is NOT going to turn out like your wet dream fantasy. Bundy is going to lose, many of his armed mob will be facing serious federal charges and Harry Reid will retain his office. Sorry but that's just the way it's going to go. You have vented your disdane of Harry Reid for as long as I can remember you postings. But you have NEVER produced a single verifiable fact to substantiate your specious claims. And that undermines your credibility.

Another unpleasantry that you are going to have to come to grips with is that the majority of the American public really are in favor of responsible gun control. This is born out in fund raising trends since 2012. It used to be that the NRA outraised and outspent opponents 100 to 1. That made them a powerful lobby and one most politicians feared. Now the tide has turned. Since 2012 the Gun Contro groups have out paced the fund raising of the NRA by tens of millions. And that does not include the 30-50 million Michael Bloomberg has pledge to fight the NRA.

100% of the folks you interact with at the gun shop are in 100% agreement with your view of things but the whole country isn't. So enjoy your buzz, ride your wave and watch out for the reef a commin'. COWabunga dude!
dirtbag

climber
Apr 29, 2014 - 08:32am PT
I.e, the times they ain't a changin'.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 29, 2014 - 09:21am PT
Will do Braunini....thanks for the advice.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 29, 2014 - 09:39am PT
Ron slandered
The dementia riddled addle minded boob needs to be retired to some place other than Nevada

That dementia riddle addle minded boob outwitted the entire Republican party in the government shutdown and is now trolling the hell out of a bunch of entitled white people in the Nevada desert. I'm not a huge fan of Reid but he has his moments.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 29, 2014 - 09:56am PT
This one



It's NERF or nuttin'.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 29, 2014 - 10:16am PT
Brothers from other mothers.






philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 29, 2014 - 10:35am PT
Have you NOT read my posts about my Mother and Father in law at the rally in Colorado Springs?
Or are you ignoring this women ...

I never heard a peep out of you supporting the OWS protestors.
In fact I believe you made several efforts to slag on them.
Or are you suggesting that the OWS protesters should have shown up armed to the tits?
Do you think all protest and dissent in America should be done by armed protesters?
Your double standards are showing.
james Colborn

Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
Apr 29, 2014 - 10:37am PT
That woman was protecting someone breaking the law, knock her down, stuff and cuff. Aiding and abbeting. Very simple.

Ron you are the Arby's of Supertopo.



philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 29, 2014 - 10:41am PT
Too bad they didn't open up a can of whup ass and cull the heard.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 29, 2014 - 10:47am PT
The cows are all I care about here.

As in, when do we get to eat 'em?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 29, 2014 - 10:53am PT
Also, will someone please volunteer as a flag person with a Sniperz R Cool/Uncool flip sign?

One 50 cal reference from a Netflix cartoon and Commander FakeDale damn near humped my leg through my keyboard. When the Feds show up with one its all Cry Freedom n sh#t.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 29, 2014 - 10:57am PT
I love how, With nothing else left to them, the defenders of this mooching racist rancher are stating that Clivin is a producer of goods for America. He is putting red meat on the tables of America. And that makes him morally superior to all thise lazy moochers of the OWS movement.
Tell me exactly how many Americans could be fed and for how long off of Bundy's Beef?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 29, 2014 - 11:25am PT
I can haz grenadez?

Finally got a wetter window. Time to slog up a volcano.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 29, 2014 - 11:55am PT
There is no problem in this world Free Soloing Mexican Bears can't solve.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 29, 2014 - 11:55am PT
In spite of my better judgement at even being near this chi** throwing contest.

Dear Ron exaggerated and obfuscated again
body checked a 59 yr old woman FROM BEHIND to the ground
Yes, they knocked down a 59 yr old woman (I take exception to the insinuation that 59 years is an age of decrepitude and incapacity....as should Ron)

I believe it was Ron who posted the YouTube link to the "community" propaganda meeting held the next day. The Bundy boyz and the woman who had been knocked down spoke. By her own testimony in the video she said she had been pushing back against the front of one of the cattle trucks moving along the dirt road. And she looked pretty fit compared to most of her accomplices. Given the melee I'd have pushed her out of the way too if it was the only way to get her out of the path of likely doom. Or did she WANT to be flattened like a cow pie? Perhaps she did. Then I agree, she should not have been pushed out of the way. It's not as if the rebels were standing peacefully in a line locked arm and arm singing Kumbya.

As for the tasering? It was one of the Bundy boyz. The video is pretty scrambled. The Feds claim that the tasered guy was confronting and not backing away from a police dog. Looks like that in the video too. Ergo, disobeying a lawful order. Tough **it laddie. You confront the cops yer gonna get roughed up. As if you weren't asking for it.

Victims? my arse. Armed provacateurs.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 29, 2014 - 12:01pm PT
It's all an outrage of Gubmint overreach when it happens to armed cow pokers wearing Water the Tree of Liberty tshirts but let it happen to peaceful protesters wearing a Greenpeace or OWS tshirt and they shulda obeyed da law.

Just a reminder to those blinded by anti-patriotic zeal.
This is what a real patriot looks like.
This is what a real hero looks like.
This is what a real man looks like.

Your Nancyboi cowering behind concrete...not so much.
Some real American should have walked up behind him and shoved a boot so far up his ass that he would speak with sole.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Apr 29, 2014 - 12:16pm PT
Over and over agin, you see people that walk away thinking they got away with something. But there's tons of video for gummint to pour over at their leisure.

I think I wouldn't want to be these guys. They felt powerful all together, but the gummint, will probably hunt them down one by one.

Not sure where this will land them. Certain violations, bear a disproportionate penalty. Gun charges, menacing, etc. Probably some of them, will never be able to go to Canada. Or even fly.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 29, 2014 - 12:29pm PT
Wow. A holotta 'let's the ass kicking begin' on all sides, here.

I'm more for lightin' up the barbie. 4" thick fillet mignon the way you know those crackers can grill it.

Fuk


Ya
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 29, 2014 - 12:32pm PT
ahhh yes
the infamous and secretive No Fly List
Now there's government excess. You can't even find out if you're on it until you're stopped at the checkpoint. If you're on it, there's no means of appeal. Some aspects of it have to change.
The appalling way some law abiding American citizens and their families (including children) have been detained and interrogated returning from Canada and Mexico (oddly enough usually people with dark complexions and carrying Korans) is finally being unearthed.

Certainly the Feds will keep track of these Whackos who have so conveniently come out of the woods to be photographed in full regalia. Good luck on them getting to travel to any civilized country, including Canada (as if they would want to).
Should provide plenty of opportunities for lawyers in the future.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 29, 2014 - 12:38pm PT
Ya'll need to back the fug up off Arbys.

Who among us doesn't enjoy a jamocha milshake, or a beef-n-cheddar sammich? Huh? WHO? Out yourselves, you un-American sunsabiches!

Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 29, 2014 - 12:42pm PT
Arbys, Jackoffindabox, or TacoHell?

I swear I'll be havin' that road debate till I fukkin croak wit me pal Ivan.
John M

climber
Apr 29, 2014 - 01:23pm PT
Since its still on the front page, I'll wade into the sh#t show again.

El Cap.. thanks for straightening me out the other day. I lost my mind. You were right. I'm not the supertopo hall monitor. If people enjoy the sh#t show, then so be it. I'm not into blowing guys, or carrying a handbag, but if you still want that blow job, I will spot you 50 bucks towards one of those 7/11 hookers Locker is always talking about.

Philo. sorry.. I got carried away. I still don't like the negativity, but its not my place to ride you.


As for Bundy.. good grief.

I did watch that video Ron posted a few pages back, the one with the judge being all snide. And I think I finally figured some of this out. I can't prove it, but it makes sense to me.

The way I see it…

Bundy is a lying sack of sh#t. His family was NOT on that property in the 1870s, but lets ignore that for now.

1. The Bundys moved on the property in the 1940s.. His family grazed cattle on leased federal land. He paid his fees.

2. In the early1990s, the desert tortoise was declared endangered. This forced a situation where the BLM had to find a way to protect them. One way they protect endangered species is that they create preserves. The condor preserve near Fillmore Ca is one good example. I use to live near that. I believe Ron was for that one. So in 1993 they created a desert tortoise preserve. I believe that this was well before large solar was possible.

3. The preserve was BLM land that the Bundy's grazed 600 head of cattle on. There were something like 49 other cattle grazers on that land. The Bundy's lease was reduced from 600 to 120 head of cattle. For a small operation like him, this was likely doom. But it was well within the BLM's rights. The grazers lease the land, they don't own it.

4. In 1993 Bundy stopped paying his grazing fees. This led to a number of court battles which he lost.

This next part is the part that I can't find any info on.

At some point, the BLM created a method where land that had desert tortoises on could be developed. What the developer had to do was move the tortoises to land set aside for a preserve. ta dah.. enter the desert tortoise preserve.

5. Solar was becoming big and Reid was pushing for it. At some point the Moap indian tribe decided to build a solar installation on their reservation. This would be good for them as they could earn money, and it would be good for whomever bought the energy. ( the evil LAWP contracted for it, my god, free enterprise, Los Angeles is stealing Nevada's power ) This is the picture that the Chief kept posting.

6. This Moap solar project had tortoises on it which by federal law had to be moved before construction could begin. Enter Reid, Bundy, and the tortoise preserve. Bundy's cattle were destroying the preserve and had to be moved before the tortoises could be safely moved.

And now you have this sh#t show.

Ried's son was involved with a Chinese company that wanted to build some solar installations. He was not as far as I can tell involved with the Moap indians, but he likely would have had tortoises that needed to be moved. So that could be a problem. It would be lovely if there were still investigative reporters, rather then what we have now that calls itself news. The problem for the Bundyites is that his projects fell through more then a year ago. As far as I can tell, he has no projects running now. But that won't stop the conspiracy theorist.

Add in..

When Reid took office his net worth was reported at 1.5 million. 20 some odd years later he is worth 10 million and to the patriots, that looks like he is taking money for those solar installations that he is pushing. Is he? I don't know.

The patriots are protesting this, yet they failed to say word one when Cheney's net worth went from 5 million to 25 million during his 8 years as vice president. Most of his net worth was in Haliburton stock. He was CEO of Haliburton during the years before he became vice president. Haliburton if you remember was a company that received no bid contracts in Irag. Something Cheney was responsible for. Not surprising to me that his stock value when up so much in 8 years. This was not protested by the Patriots.

Moral of the story….. make your money off of getting no bid contracts from the government, but not from the state that you live in. Or the Patriots will be pissed.

Did I miss something?

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 29, 2014 - 03:51pm PT
you missed a lot of the hysteria from the Whackos

as for facts?
From a right wing website
The stand-off began earlier this month, when the Bureau of Land Management attempted to enforce a court order and seize nearly 1,000 head of cattle raised by Bundy.

When the BLM showed up with hundreds of armed federal agents and began rounding up the cattle, almost 1,000 people came to Bundy’s aide – armed militia from multiple states and others who believed the government was overstepping its bounds.
That's a significant contraction of events.
The BLM originally showed up with a small number of "armed officers" (all BLM, NPS, USFS "rangers" are now officer LEO's) and a few paid cowboys, set up some temporary corrals in the wash under I-15 (nice shade) and collected a number of cattle. The plan was to move all the cattle to existing private auction yards in central Utah and auction them. Cowboys get paid, auction yards get their fees, cattle gone, after expenses a very small portion of Bundy's debt to the government gets paid. The BLM had every incentive to safely collect as many cattle as possible.
The Governor of Utah screamed "not in MY back yard" and BLM suddenly had to make plans to hold the cattle longer at Bundyville. In his defense, the Utah gov was concerned about just what happened in Nevada and didn't want any part of it.

THEN the "militias" started showing up in small numbers and the pushing match mentioned earlier happened. At that point there were only a dozen or so BLM "rangers" (for lack of a better word). I believe there was only one LV TV crew and possibly a print reporter from St George (40 miles up the road)
So then the Whackos started arriving in droves. How many? 1000? Does that include women and children? Only The Shadow knows. (and the FBI)
The Clark County Sheriff brokered a peace agreement. The BLM says 350 cattle were released. BLM says 2 died, 4 were euthanized.
The BLM went home. Many of the "militias" stayed.

I believe the BLM had figured on capturing 900 cattle, Bundy said he only owned 500.(wildly varying estimates in the press)

If you want TMI just Google Bundy Cattle or go to the LV Review Journal and search for Bundy
John M

climber
Apr 29, 2014 - 04:09pm PT
you missed a lot of the hysteria from the Whackos

yep.. I was just trying to get down to the basis. I thought it was just about tortoises. Jan said earlier she thought more was going on, which is what motivated me to look deeper

. I believe now that it started as tortoises 20 years ago and added solar installations recently when it was necessary to move tortoises from the solar construction sites, which would explain Reid's current interest. It doesn't explain why this guy thinks he can get away without paying grazing fees just because he was pissed he lost some of his grazing rights. I understand that his current argument is that he doesn't recognize the feds as having rights. he lost that argument in court.

the hysteria and hyperbole around this is pretty astounding. the number and type of theories out there is hard to digest and wade through. LIke if we shotgun enough theories out there, something will stick.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Apr 29, 2014 - 04:18pm PT
I think I wouldn't want to be these guys. They felt powerful all together, but the gummint, will probably hunt them down one by one.

Not sure where this will land them. Certain violations, bear a disproportionate penalty. Gun charges, menacing, etc. Probably some of them, will never be able to go to Canada. Or even fly.

I hope you are right, any civilian with a pistol in their hand, or rifle to their shoulder in that stand-off should be prosecuted. What armchair lawyer here can possibly claim that it's legal or acceptable to point a loaded gun at cops implementing a court order? If they are true patriots they can fight the prosecution of their "civil disobedience" all the way to the Supreme Court.

TE





HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 29, 2014 - 04:20pm PT
added solar installations recently when it was necessary to move tortoises from the solar construction sites, which would explain Reid's current interest.
Bundy's been in violation of a judgement since 1993 when solar installations in the desert were still a pipe dream (too bad they weren't taken seriously).

Reid's current interest has a lot to do with representing Nevada for a very long time and him growing up in the desert hardscrabble dying mining town of Searchlight south and west of Las Vegas. His family were there long before Bundy got his land.
It's not clear that he has any financial interest in Bundy's plight. His son DID but that was the now defunct project. There is a fed investigation. We'll see what it digs up. So far, Sen Reid is clean.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 29, 2014 - 04:57pm PT
It's about a guy who has been sucking the federal teat forever but just doesn't want to pay his bills.

And who apparently loves a microphone.

I don't fault him for either, but a civil rights issue?

Bitch, please.

Now rustle me up some ribeye and STFU already. I'm starvin'.
John M

climber
Apr 29, 2014 - 05:02pm PT
I don't believe that Reid has a financial arrangement. I don't believe that he is that stupid. But he has supported solar energy. I am simply trying to address the entire situation as it appears that its not just about tortoises. He has been very forceful in a situation that could make him look bad to his constituents. He could have dialed back the rhetoric. He came out forcefully, so to me that means that he is trying for something.

Could he be trying to appear strong on support for green issues in order garner support for a run for President? Ron will laugh at that. So will the Chief as they think Reid is a traitor. Its Politics and if Reid is anything, he is a politician. This is just guessing. I haven't followed Reid well enough to have a strong idea. This was just something that occurred to me.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 29, 2014 - 05:25pm PT
John M no appology necessary but I appreciate it very much. I truly understand your concerns about the negativity on the forum. For my part I don't start off automatically negative but a person tuning into a single post could get that impression. The context is what gets missed. When you have flogged yourself enough disproving lies over and over snarkiness comes easier.

Your recent posts have been spot on and well said. Thank you for presenting a saner more civil explanation.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 29, 2014 - 05:27pm PT
Harry Reid on religion
(he was originally agnostic but converted to LDS in college)
I think it is much easier to be a good member of the Church (LDS) and a Democrat than a good member of the Church and a Republican." He went on to say that the Democrats' emphasis on helping others, as opposed to what he considers Republican dogma to the contrary, is the reason he's a Democrat.[77] He delivered a speech at Brigham Young University to about 4,000 students on October 9, 2007, in which he expressed his opinion that Democratic values mirror Mormon values.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Reid

in the 2010 election Reid won by 11%. and spent 20% less than the Republican candidate. Since his opposition only beat him in rural districts I'm guessing Bundyville hasn't hurt him much.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 29, 2014 - 05:27pm PT
I've stayed out of most of this, but I have to mention the difficulty in repossessing or levying on livestock. I've represented several creditors secured by livestock over the years. All of them violated one of the basic principles in lending: never rely on collateral that eats.

That aside, seizure of livestock is a tricky business. At least Bundy's cattle were beef cattle. Try seizing a milking herd! You need to have brand inspectors, LEO's, transport facilities, and an immediately available dairy with sufficient milking capacity to milk the cattle at their accustomed intervals. It makes simple rustling look like a cakewalk. In any case, any attempt to seize livestock involuntarily almost always requires use of a lot of gendarmerie.

Back to the issue at hand, I find it bizarre that so many conservatives reflexively side with a man who is using public resources for free. I find it equally strange that they would admire those using force to violate a legitimate court order, and attempt to threaten deadly force against law enforcement. In most other contexts, they would say that if you point a gun at an LEO, expect to be shot. I guess they've become so selectively anarchic that they cheer anyone defying authority -- as long as he looks like one of them.

I just don't get it.

John
John M

climber
Apr 29, 2014 - 05:34pm PT
I guess they've become so selectively anarchic that they cheer anyone defying authority -- as long as he looks like one of them.

thank you John.. thats what a lot of us have been saying for a long time.

I just don't get it.

me neither..
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 29, 2014 - 05:36pm PT
I don't get it!
Got it?
:-)
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Apr 29, 2014 - 05:40pm PT
I guess they've become so selectively anarchic


There is a sh1tload of selective thinking going on on both sides of this (LOL) discussion.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 29, 2014 - 05:41pm PT
Selective or not at least it's thinking.
And don't you me shetload ya potty mouth. :-)
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 29, 2014 - 05:42pm PT
No need to seize his livestock!

Just the rib and short loin parts.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 29, 2014 - 05:44pm PT
The only real question is when are you republicans going to do something about it?

Wasn't it under Reagan that the BLM started to impose grazing fees?

John

P.S. Oh, no! I'm getting sucked into the thread!
John M

climber
Apr 29, 2014 - 05:47pm PT
Yes.. Reagan started grazing fees. With a presidential signing order. And at the request of the cattlemen's associations. too much overgrazing was killing everyone.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 29, 2014 - 05:48pm PT
consider that most Conservatives have distanced themselves from Blunder. Some called him out at the beginning, oddly enough Glenn Beck and finally Hannity and O'Reilly with his racist rant.

Blunder and his fascist "militias" only represent the fringe whackos. I'm betting most of them consider Conservatives to be mainstream sellouts. They might still like Bachmann, Palin and Sanctum Sanitarium.

Unfortunately they are well armed and number about 200,000 nationwide. Well networked now thanks to the intardnet. They are far enough outside "mainstream" politics they have no reason to reflect sanity. They are all about rebellion, armed if necessary. Most are also fringe sect Christians, certainly not Jewish or Muslim. The more publicity they can get the more whacko wannabes will want to join up.
Rather like the Nazis in 1920's Germany.
They've manipulated Blunder to their own advantage. Just like using children and women as shields, all the speaking at Bundyville was by Bundy and his sons. The "militias" just stood and posed for the cameras. Great recruiting project.
klinefelter

Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
Apr 29, 2014 - 05:54pm PT
I guess they've become so selectively anarchic that they cheer anyone defying authority -- as long as he looks like one of them.

Particularly when the POTUS is a black man. This whole affair reeks of latent racism, so it came as no surprise when Cliven went on his recent racial diatribe in front of his battalion of fair skinned followers.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 29, 2014 - 05:56pm PT
Jebus. Seize his assets (accounts, buildings, vehicles), charge the guy with something, (seems like a long menu there), frog march him off to jail, and be done with it already.

Then round up the cattle and start the barbie.

Cheerist. What a shitshow.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 29, 2014 - 05:57pm PT
The Praetorian Guard and the White Mountain Militia?

I'm not sure 'latent' racism is at play here.

But that's not the point. It's illegal to discriminate, but not to be racist.

If the cause was something more profound than "I don't want to pay my bills", I might be more sympathetic.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 29, 2014 - 06:10pm PT
Apparently the armed militias "protecting" Bundy have started doing exactly what you would expect people with guns to do once they feel empowered to act under their own authority: they start acting like they own the joint. Hard not to see a comparison with the right wing militias in Ukraine.

http://lasvegassun.com/news/2014/apr/28/sheriff-urged-clamp-down-armed-militiamen-around-b/

The letter also says militiamen have a presence on state and local roads as well as federal highways. In some areas, according to the letter, militiamen have set up checkpoints where drivers are stopped and asked to provide a proof of residency.

They’ve been seen carrying high-caliber weapons and keep a round-the-clock security detail on Bundy.

Many of the militiamen, attracted by Bundy’s views on state’s rights and public lands, traveled from across the country to support him in his stand against the Bureau of Land Management.

We will protect local rights by denying citizens of their rights!

This can only end poorly.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 29, 2014 - 06:18pm PT
"You're all too serious and should consider climbing more often..."

I'm going tomorrow and I'm taking one of your cows with me.

Did you know they just banned roundups in Europe?

Man, that cracker does have influence.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 29, 2014 - 06:46pm PT
any recommendations for a good rub?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 29, 2014 - 07:07pm PT
Country boy here.

It takes a firm hand, a little spit, and whole lotta gentle.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 29, 2014 - 07:08pm PT
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 29, 2014 - 07:11pm PT
Sounds like the crazies are spoiling for a fight..

A Democratic congressman from Nevada said in a letter this week that his constituents have reported the armed militia supporting rancher Cliven Bundy have set up checkpoints to verify the residency of anybody passing through.

Rep. Steven Horsford (D-NV), who represents the area, sent the letter Sunday to Clark County Sheriff Doug Gillespie, asking him to investigate.

"I am writing to bring your attention to the ongoing situation in northeastern Clark County which has caused many of my constituents to fear for their safety," Horsford wrote. Residents in the area "have expressed concern over the continual presence of multiple out-of-state, armed militia groups that have remained in the community" since Bundy's dispute with the Bureau of Land Management came to a boil.

The militia, as reported by Horsford's constituents, "have set up checkpoints where residents are required to prove they live in the area before being allowed to pass," the letter said.

They have also maintained a presence, sometimes armed, along highways and roads, as well as community sites like churches and schools, the letter asserted.

Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 29, 2014 - 07:20pm PT
Ya just gotta remember, it's SQUIRT, not SPURT, mkay?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 30, 2014 - 02:01am PT
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Apr 30, 2014 - 04:52am PT

no issues with the free rangers here
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 30, 2014 - 09:19am PT
Or a hippie dirt bag rock climber from COWlarado?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 30, 2014 - 09:23am PT
Will they let me pass unscathed if I tell them I am Polish?

Or will I have to out gun them?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 30, 2014 - 09:26am PT
Hey don't be messin with my sausage ya brat.

Try some of these instead.

There great lightly toasted.

Just avoid the jalapeño cheddar flavor.

(edit to add to Locker's post below)
Knack, knack.
Who dat?
Wurst.
Wurst who?
Knackwurst joke ya eva herd?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 30, 2014 - 09:45am PT
Will they ever, in the foreseeable future, let me climb in Nevadastan again?


What if I disguise myself as a Polish/Italian named Salami Kielbasa?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 30, 2014 - 09:49am PT
Just because Polish jokes are all the rage doesn't mean that the polish can tell jokes.

Philo...call Maryann and catch a ride to Indian Creek this weekend....I'll be there.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 30, 2014 - 09:56am PT
MOO. Yer killin' me here Locker. Crackin' up.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 30, 2014 - 11:11am PT
Philo...call Maryann and catch a ride to Indian Creek this weekend....I'll be there.

Jim I'd really love to but Logan my youngest is playing in the State Ultimate Championships in Denver this weekend, Poor form if I wasn't there particularly after four years of supporting his older brother's run to being State Champs.
WBraun

climber
Apr 30, 2014 - 11:35am PT
Meanwhile your US govt smuggles tons of drugs like heroin into the USA thru it's CIA backdoor system to fund it's various nefarious "Black Ops" around the world.

Dr F = Stupid America hypocrite .....
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 30, 2014 - 11:39am PT
Yes Ol Poppy and the Golden Triangle rides again.
At least this time they aren't smuggling the smack in the body bags of US soldiers.
Always room for improvement.



"Maryjane" ??? WTF ??? How old are you Ron?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 30, 2014 - 11:47am PT
But there was no dog around so that is probably why I made it across...

Were there cows?

I herd in a compromise MOOve that the Feds were going to repurpose Bundy's beef as drug sniffing cows on the NeeVadaStan perimeter fence that they hired the Israelis to build to assuage their anger over Secretary Kerry's politically incorrect comments at the Trilateral Commission meeting.

It's true.
Well some of it anyway.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 30, 2014 - 11:54am PT
If someone does encounter the claimed checkpoints or people with guns near churches or schools, Roybal also said, "they need to report it to (Metro)."

Provided they survive the encounter.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 30, 2014 - 11:56am PT
^^^ Giddy Up so to speak.


John M

climber
Apr 30, 2014 - 12:02pm PT
"Go ahead and shoot me, you sonofabitch."

my sentiments exactly.


I would also be on the phone to the sheriff.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 30, 2014 - 12:02pm PT

Whew! Gud thang fer em COWpokers upin Bundystan.

AmeriKKKa luves it er shoot it. Got it?
:-)

(look I put a smiley face so don't everyone get mad at me for hatin')
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 30, 2014 - 12:07pm PT
From the wayback machine (yesterday afternoon)
JEleazarian
I guess they've become so selectively anarchic that they cheer anyone defying authority -- as long as he looks like one of them.

Raygun
1st inaugural
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problems; government is the problem".
The same president who violated a specific act of Congress and gave us Iran Contra. Cut taxes on those who could easily afford them; destroyed the air traffic controllers union; gave us "Raygunomics"; cut Medicaid and EPA budgets.
And oh yes, took Jimmy Carter's solar panels off the White House roof.
And spent $billion on that phantasmagoric wet dream Star Wars defense. No sane physicist at the time believed it would work. And they still don't. Great government feeding trough for the Military Industrial Complex ( a prescient phrase by the last intelligent and decent Republican president)

Over the years the predicate clause "In this present crisis" has conveniently been dropped and "government is the problem" has become the Conservative Mantra. Carried to its extreme conclusion there would be no government and there are plenty of right wing extremists in Congress who believe it. No republitard has EVER publicly rebutted this bizarre philosophy. Otherwise he'd have been tarred, feathered and run out of Dodge on a rail. Raygun remains the Godhead.

Why are we surprised that 33 years later Bundyites and "militias" refuse to obey Federal law?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 30, 2014 - 12:19pm PT
Sheriff Gillespie helped broker a deal to end the standoff
Ron, you're flogging a dead horse. This is undisputed (at least by anyone who's paying attention).
There's plenty of reasonable discussion about whether this was a smart thing to do.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 30, 2014 - 12:46pm PT
^^^
It's so damn secret they put in on the CNN!!

Lolz. New World Odor..smells like, VICTORY!
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 30, 2014 - 12:49pm PT
I really didn't care for Reagan.




He really was a devil in disguise.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 30, 2014 - 12:53pm PT
Sadly he is much preferable to today's righties who cater to those who have gone off the deep end.

At least William F Buckley understood the importance of keeping the kooks in their place.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 30, 2014 - 01:16pm PT
Dingus, Buckley was wrong about many things but the Republican Party of the 80s did not cater to the far right to the degree it does today.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 30, 2014 - 01:36pm PT
Ever watch Buckley's debates with Noam Chomsky? Really highlights just how far wacko the Right has become of late, and the loss of any kind of productive tone in political dialogue.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 30, 2014 - 03:12pm PT
I think the dialog does so, Dingus, only when we're not really serious. I know that, for instance, my view of the world and that of Dr. F. aren't nearly as far apart as our posts might suggest. It's really more a matter of blowing off steam.

Catharsis does have therapeutic effect, however.

John
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 30, 2014 - 03:49pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 30, 2014 - 03:58pm PT
Wonder how these gun-strokin troglodytes would like armed militias harassing people in their towns

Asking their moms for proof of residency at gunpoint etc.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 30, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
This is my pet peeve about cops. They lie through their teeth.

Sad to say, BASE104, so do some prosecutors. While most prosecutors I've dealt with, like most cops I know, are basically honest, I found it particularly disillusioning to see more and more prosecutors seek "victory" rather than justice, and lie, cheat and distort to "win." To make matters worse, the pressure to do so seems to be growing.

I do have some advice on what legal theories to pursue if armed, unofficial, self-appointed "militia" threaten you. If they are not agents of a government, they have not violated the 4th and/or 14th Amendments. They have, however, committed a few juicy intentional torts such as false imprisonment, assault, battery (if they touch you) and intentional infliction of emotional distress. The ensuing entitlement to punitive damages should put a crimp or two in their style.

A couple of other caveats, though. As the eminent San Francisco collection firm of Cook, Perkiss says on its return address, "To win is nothing. To collect is everything." And I hope if you ever have an encounter with those crazies, that you, not your estate, does the collecting.

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 30, 2014 - 05:00pm PT
"I'm no lawyer, but I believe that I can refuse the search. "

I'd be quite curious about the legal structure around search refusal, and how to practically apply it.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 30, 2014 - 05:15pm PT
Who the hell drives around with a video camera all the time? Survival's video was obviously shot by someone with a fully-functioning video camera (used by another person in some examples)...not simply a phone...and trying to use a phone-video camera during such a stop would be very difficult to do.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 30, 2014 - 05:21pm PT
Unfortunately, the courts have upheld inland stops. More here:

https://www.aclu.org/technology-and-liberty/fact-sheet-us-constitution-free-zone


From the link:

"But what is “the border”? According to the government, it is a 100-mile wide strip that wraps around the “external boundary” of the United States."

That strip includes 2/3rds of the US population.

The place to fight is in the courts and legislatures. The ACLU just got two state level voter suppression laws struck down this week. We can, and have been, winning victories in favor of a more healthy democracy - best to avoid the pointless shitshows the likes of which are happening in NV and go for lasting reform.

Think and act strategically.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 30, 2014 - 05:21pm PT
trying to use a phone-video camera during such a stop would be very difficult to do.

why does operating a phone in a running vehicle as the driver strike me as somehow illegal?

wait, not illegal use the camera but illegal to make a call right? unless hands free...
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 30, 2014 - 05:22pm PT
Yeah, DMT, I know they are on phones...but trying to video that stuff while carrying on this effort seems implausible.

Those videos were shot by individuals who were seeking to challenge the detainment laws. No doubt they had rigged their cameras (&/or used specialized video equipment) to allow them to carry on that conversation without managing the equipment, or worse, creating some kind of supposed 'threat' to the officer (by not keeping hands visible, etc.)

I'm down with the idea of reasonable citizen pushback on detainments like this...just having a hard time imagining how to do it in everyday life.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Apr 30, 2014 - 05:22pm PT

Metro Police Sgt. Jesse Roybal said today the department had received Horsford’s letter, was aware of complaints and allegations and were “investigating each report. As of this time, there are no criminal charges in any of these cases.”


See, no charges, don't get the cart ahead of the horse.

Unless it's Harry Ried, then he's guilty without charges.


LEB'ism lives.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 30, 2014 - 06:32pm PT
No speculation required. Know your rights when stopped by the police, FBI, or border guys:

https://www.aclu.org/drug-law-reform-immigrants-rights-racial-justice/know-your-rights-what-do-if-you
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 30, 2014 - 07:17pm PT

you know what is so cool about SuperTopo?

that we have a broad range of people contributing to discussions, from all walks of life

we beat the hell out of every topic and each other

sometimes, some people might actually change their minds, or not

but they sure will have every assertion, every opinion, very well challenged

maybe we are like making sausage and politics, looks and can read ugly, but it "works"

just want to say thanks to all of you, you are smart and terrific
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 30, 2014 - 07:22pm PT
Who's deleting their posts right now? Weird.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 30, 2014 - 07:41pm PT
The checkpoint compilation is great, but this is my favorite.

[Click to View YouTube Video]


I had been driving out to the southern terminus of the Pacific Crest Trail at the border and went through a number of times. Never had any problems, but I wondered just what might happen if you don't want to participate.

Look around for the window smashing video if you're really curious about how far these guys will go.

However, if you're not interested in a confrontation and it's night, just dim your headlights (I shut mine off) like the sign says and you'll just be waved right on through, no questions asked. I'm guessing that this strategy only works if you're are (and look) white.



TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Apr 30, 2014 - 08:24pm PT
The guys in that video were very simple. They refused to talk and in at least one case, refused a request to search.

They didn't get in the way of any important police duties, and it is interesting how they eventually were allowed to go on their way. Apparently their supervisors have seen this before and have been briefed on how to react.

The INS officers realize that no genuine smuggler would risk behaving like that, so they know it's not worth their effort to pursue the point. It doesn't prove that the stops, or even such searches without consent would be illegal. Courts have held that they are legal and unless and until someone is rich enough or desperate enough to go all the way to the supreme court about it, they are, by definition, constitutional.

Reminds me of when we'd drive around with four near-catatonic drunks and a stone sober driver, trying to get stopped and breathalyzed just for kicks. It simply didn't matter how outrageously the passengers behaved at the checkpoint, the cops would just smile and wave us on - we weren't as original as we thought.

TE

zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 30, 2014 - 08:39pm PT
The courts have held them to be legal under a very specifically defined set of cirucmstances.

Well, as specific as it gets in the legal world.



HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 30, 2014 - 09:33pm PT
A recent US Supreme Court ruling regarding checkpoint type stops
Brendlin V California, 2007. Opinion written by Souter

The pertinent bit. Underscores are mine
The law is settled that in Fourth Amendment terms a traffic stop entails a seizure of the driver “even though the purpose of the stop is limited and the resulting detention quite brief.” Delaware v. Prouse, 440 U. S. 648, 653 (1979) ; see also Whren v. United States, 517 U. S. 806, 809–810 (1996) . And although we have not, until today, squarely answered the question whether a passenger is also seized, we have said over and over in dicta that during a traffic stop an officer seizes everyone in the vehicle, not just the driver. See, e.g., Prouse, supra, at 653 (“[S]topping an automobile and detaining its occupants constitute a ‘seizure’ within the meaning of [the Fourth and Fourteenth] Amendments”); Colorado v. Bannister, 449 U. S. 1, 4, n. 3 (1980)
The question in this case was if a passenger could claim 4th Amendment violation in a traffic stop.
The ruling was yes.

Delaware V Prouse, 1979. Opinion by White, dissent by Rehnquist (of course).
Except where there is at least articulable and reasonable suspicion that a motorist is unlicensed or that an automobile is not registered, or that either the vehicle or an occupant is otherwise subject to seizure for violation of law, stopping an automobile and detaining the driver in order to check his driver's license and the registration of the automobile are unreasonable under the Fourth Amendment.
The cops can't stop you unless they have good reason to believe you're violating the law OR you are subject to seizure (driver looks like he's 10 years old, prison escapee, parole violation, unpaid cattle grazing fees). And passengers have the same protection.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 30, 2014 - 09:37pm PT
Courts have held that they are legal and unless and until someone is rich enough or desperate enough to go all the way to the supreme court about it, they are, by definition, constitutional.

Just curious what "definition" you are using.
If there is binding precedent (an appellate decision) in any particular jurisdiction, then I agree with you that, unless and until that precedent is overruled, they are constitutional. At least as to a case that cannot be meaningfully distinguished from whatever appellate decisions may exist.

I'm not sure what you meant by "definition," but if you believe that stops are constitutional just because the cops have got away with it so far, I disagree.

(Not that it matters, but my general understanding is that general cop stops for border patrol and even more ridiculous things such as drivers license checkpoints have been upheld--that's not based on real legal research (reviewing cases or reputable primary sources), just the usual crap I see on the Internet of the type we all read.)

HT--didn't see your post when I wrote mine.
I haven't carefully read all of the above posts, so it's possible I'm misunderstanding whatever points people are making, in which case I'll be embarrassed!
But do keep in mind that things like DUI checkpoints have in fact been upheld by the USSC, which means the cops have the right to at least temporarily detain you for the purpose of determining if you are subject to arrest for whatever the purpose of the detention is (or anything else you're doing wrong that is in plain view).
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 30, 2014 - 09:41pm PT
Some interesting and surprising recommendations by the ACLU (even in you're a whacko)

Upon request, show police your driver's license, registration and proof of insurance.

If an officer or immigration agent asks to look inside your car, you can refuse to consent to the search. But if police believe your car contains evidence of a crime, your car can be searched without your consent.

If you are not a U.S. citizen and an immigration agent requests your immigration papers, you must show them if you have them with you.

Remember: police misconduct cannot be challenged on the street. Don't physically resist officers or threaten to file a complaint.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 30, 2014 - 09:43pm PT
drivers license checkpoints have been upheld
Much to my surprise NOT upheld. See Delaware V Prouse all the way back in 1979

DUI checkpoints have in fact been upheld by the USSC
They're allowed in the interest of public safety.

Here's a good summary in California
To pass muster under both the United States Constitution and the California Constitution, DUI checkpoints must follow eight specific guidelines:

supervising officers must make all operational decisions;
the criteria for stopping motorists must be neutral;
the checkpoint must be reasonably located;
adequate safety precautions must be taken;
the checkpoint's time and duration should reflect “good judgment”;
the checkpoint must exhibit sufficient indicia of its official nature;
drivers should be detained a minimal amount of time; and
roadblocks should be publicly advertised in advance.
http://www.shouselaw.com/dui-checkpoint.html
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 30, 2014 - 09:48pm PT
Remember: police misconduct cannot be challenged on the street. Don't physically resist officers or threaten to file a complaint.

OK here's a somewhat silly hypothetical:
Let's say a police officer detains you (or at least attempts to), but it turns out the basis for his detention is illegal (as later determined by a court).
On the street, you do in fact resist by, say, just driving away.

My question: what crime have you committed? Something like "failure to obey a lawful order"? Consider that, by the rules of this hypothetical, the order was not lawful.

I'm just raising a hypothetical question--I agree that in the real world, challenging police misconduct "on the street" is not going to be an effective tactic unless something is happening like the cops are beating you to death or nearly to death, in which case what do you have to lose? (Even then, your best self-defense strategy is probably to treat them like bears or whatever and "play dead," instead of like mountain lions that you're supposed to try to fight.)

HT: my super-quick understanding is that Delaware v. Prouse was not in the context of a "checkpoint," and that checkpoints have indeed been upheld. So it's distinguishable. I have to run now, but I'll check back in later to see if you or anyone else cares, and I'm mistaken on any of this, I'll gladly stand corrected.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Apr 30, 2014 - 10:26pm PT
Being a smart ass with cops is never a good idea, she's lucky she's a blonde.

Reading over those appellate court decisions about the "sovereign" citizens is a hoot. The militia dude is not the sharpest tool in the shed. He needs to do some independent research. I certainly can't find the Supreme Court decision declaring the federal government null and void.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 30, 2014 - 10:38pm PT
Being a smart ass with cops is never a good idea,
In fact she was within her rights and the Border Patrol agents knew it.
Presumably she filed a written complaint.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Apr 30, 2014 - 10:40pm PT
A lot of people have been well within in their rights, and still regretted getting smart with cops.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 30, 2014 - 10:56pm PT
Blah remember that most "illegal" po po activity results in the suppression of evidence, not a conviction of a cop. If cops act without a required warrant or without probable cause or whatever they have violated your fourth amendment right and your remedy, if anything, is a successful motion to suppress. But the cops have committed no crime or done anything illegal. I suspect if an officer were actually committing a crime against someone they could resist according to local law.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 30, 2014 - 11:15pm PT
Blundy's predicament was adjudicated with all due process and all his legal rights were observed. If anything the Gov't left him free way too long.
As is evident to any impartial person with more sense than god gave geese.
End of story.
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
Apr 30, 2014 - 11:18pm PT
some people don't need to point guns to disobey, Ron. but then, some do need guns.

Ahh, yes, Benghazi, what a sham! Obama basically orchestrated the whole thing, amirite?

Almost as bad as Iran-Contra: weapons for hostages, under Reagan. Almost.

crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 30, 2014 - 11:23pm PT
Ron, you domestic terrorist in wait, take your Benghazi nuttiness to another thread. There's one called Hoax's for the Weak Minded.

Drinking and watching Fox, no doubt.
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
Apr 30, 2014 - 11:30pm PT
I will vote for Hillary just because I know how much it would chap your ass, Ron, to have her as Commander-in-Chief. Not a huge fan personally, but then, I don't love Obama but I am tickled by the cognitive dissonance I see him inducing in you.


Nice to turn off the greasemonkey and see you back at it old pal.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 30, 2014 - 11:34pm PT
I will say this Ron, having you spew tired, talk radio ignorance about presidential elections is better than reading your posts about pointing loaded weapons at Federal employees.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 30, 2014 - 11:47pm PT
just want to say thanks to all of you, you are smart and terrific

I hope you didn't mean that tongue-in-cheek, Norton, and you need to include yourself in the set of the smart and terrific .

John
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 1, 2014 - 12:09am PT
Wingnuts are turning on themselves down-a-Bundy-way. Watch out for the drones, Ron!

It was the imminent drone attack that finally did it.

Paranoid rumors are not only common at gatherings of antigovernment “Patriots,” they’re practically the entire raison d’etre for them. So when a wild and paranoid rumor began circulating – that Attorney General Eric Holder was preparing a drone strike on the armed militiamen who gathered at Cliven Bundy’s ranch in Nevada – it unleashed a rift within the camp, which is brimming with fear, rage, testosterone and firearms.

Vicious infighting among those remaining at the camp – estimated at less than a hundred – broke out a little more than two weeks after heavily armed militiamen forced federal agents to back down from a planned roundup of Bundy’s illegally grazing cattle from public lands. After vowing to stay on and protect Bundy – who then stumbled on the national stage with an outpouring of racist commentary – the remaining “Patriots,” who have been raising fear levels among local residents, have begun feuding. And it has been revealing.

Apparently, someone within one of the major factions at the camp, the Oath Keepers, relayed word of the imminent drone attack to his leaders. Oath Keepers founder Stewart Rhodes responded by pulling his people out of what they called “the kill zone” (the area the supposed drone would be striking). When the other militiamen learned that the Oath Keepers had pulled out, they were outraged.

As you can see in the video below, the angry militiamen – led by a Montana “Patriot” named Ryan Payne, who has been acting as the spokesman for the militiamen at the ranch – held an impromptu gathering at the camp to discuss the situation. They openly talk about shooting Rhodes and other Oath Keepers leaders – because in their view, the Oath Keepers’ actions constituted “desertion” and “cowardice” – and describe how “the whole thing is falling apart over there.” At the end, they vote unanimously to oust the Oath Keepers, or at least its leadership, from the Bundy Ranch camp.

“Patriots” often talk about fighting what they see as a second Civil War in America soon. But as the militiamen at the Bundy Ranch are demonstrating, the civil wars they end up fighting are usually within their own ranks.

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2014/04/30/back-at-the-bundy-ranch-its-oath-keepers-vs-militiamen-as-wild-rumors-fly/
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
May 1, 2014 - 12:10am PT
Let's say a police officer detains you (or at least attempts to), but it turns out the basis for his detention is illegal (as later determined by a court).
On the street, you do in fact resist by, say, just driving away.

Varies from state to state, in California you can resist an unlawful detention, Under Federal I do not believe you can. As noted, you resist at great risk to you personal safety and on a gamble you will prevail in the long run. The Sagon Penn case was a classic test of the rule.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 1, 2014 - 12:25am PT
Will this get me into Neevadastan to climb?


From da Gipper, Runold Raygun hisseff.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 1, 2014 - 12:31am PT
The militia men are getting worked by the oldest trick in the book: agents provocateur. Half the people in that camp are probably FBI agents.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
May 1, 2014 - 12:39am PT
The militia men are getting worked by the oldest trick in the book: agents provocateur. Half the people in that camp are probably FBI agents.

That's one possible explanation as to how "protesters" were (allegedly) pointing loaded guns at fed cops seemingly with no repercussions--could be they were cops themselves, just doing some acting. Fun job if you can get it I suppose; as a taxpayer, the entire affair is nauseating.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
May 1, 2014 - 12:40am PT
Please cite the California case or statute that allows resistance to an "unlawful" detention.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
May 1, 2014 - 01:02am PT
Let me tell you guys a little something about maritime law.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
May 1, 2014 - 01:20am PT
Please cite the California case or statute that allows resistance to an "unlawful" detention.

I did cite a classic case, Sagon Penn in San Deigo. It is a little over the top and was also a case of self defense.

Also see California Jury Instruction 2670

http://www.courts.ca.gov/partners/documents/calcrim_juryins.pdf

[A peace officer may legally detain someone if [the person consents to
the detention or if]:
1. Specific facts known or apparent to the officer lead him or her
to suspect that the person to be detained has been, is, or is about
to be involved in activity relating to crime;
AND
2. A reasonable officer who knew the same facts would have the
same suspicion.
Any other detention is unlawful.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 1, 2014 - 06:27am PT
For all practicalities, resisting arrest is a pretty stupid move given how officers generally respond to such antics. Cops deal with all kinds of belligerent peope day in, day out and it's probably not in your best interest to be perceived as one of them. Better to sort it out at the station if it's gotten that far out of hand. You can attempt to stand on principle, but at least here in PDX you aren't going to be standing very long.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
May 1, 2014 - 09:18am PT
Just saying no to drugs....?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 1, 2014 - 09:18am PT
Phil...Outstanding young republican??

I crossed the border with Mexico several times last year in my truck. No issues with border patrol. They have job to do thanks to GWB and Homeland Security.

Watch what you wish for.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 1, 2014 - 09:21am PT
That's one possible explanation as to how "protesters" were (allegedly) pointing loaded guns at fed cops seemingly with no repercussions--could be they were cops themselves, just doing some acting. Fun job if you can get it I suppose; as a taxpayer, the entire affair is nauseating.

I hope there are FBI agents keeping an eye on these "patriot" creeps. Can't think of a better use of taxpayer dollars.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
May 1, 2014 - 10:00am PT
"I hope there are FBI agents keeping an eye on these "patriot" creeps. Can't think of a better use of taxpayer dollars."...


I agree!!!...


Enemies to a better America...

Wow... sheep really are easy to divide and conquer...

You do realize this is the same playbook that's been used countless times in the past with collapsing regimes?
dirtbag

climber
May 1, 2014 - 10:40am PT
Right wing extremists have killed thousands of people in the US. Far more than al Qaeda.
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
May 1, 2014 - 10:45am PT
From yesterday's paper
"It seems all these people do not recognize the logical extension of their actions: anarchy. The two definitions given for anarchy by the online Merriam-Webster Dictionary are 1. a state of society without government or law; and 2. political and social disorder due to the absence of governmental control."
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 1, 2014 - 11:18am PT
From April 30th, Forbes

"Lately, Bundy’s leadership has taken on a religious tone. He claims that he has had a revelation from God that his supporters are to disarm the BLM and National Park Service, and to tear down the toll booth at Lake Mead."
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 1, 2014 - 11:23am PT
I'm surprised only Locker and BobD were piqued by my Reagan medal. I expected a bit more razing. Let me say that it is one hundred percent real. Fortunately it was given by Reagan not to me but to my to my bat sh#t crazy rabid republican Grandmother for her efforts to dismantle America,
I am not sure why I ended up with it but it's a hoot to show it to people and watch their reactions. My Dad is also a diehard republican. He got George Bush to autograph a hundred dollar bill at a political rally. Talk about devaluing currency.
I trade them both for a cup of coffee and a scome.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 1, 2014 - 11:32am PT
I think the word you are looking for is obliviously. lol
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 1, 2014 - 11:34am PT
What medal? I ain't got time to surf this whole gdamn thread, I gotta stay on the wall and watch out fer them gdamn yankee ninja agents n sh#t....
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 1, 2014 - 11:35am PT
This medal Survival.
I was kind of hoping I could wear it like a Rapper's bling and that the NevadaStan Oaf Creapers would let me pass with my knackwurst un-molested.
WBraun

climber
May 1, 2014 - 11:39am PT
There's only one guy here having anything to do with the subject matter of this thread.

He's told you 3000 posts ago to fuk off.

Since then ya all been talkin to yourselves to the mirror.

You people are crazier then the ones you're callin out ......
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 1, 2014 - 11:42am PT
Really Duckblind I didn't see a post by Senator "Dirty Harry" Reid.
:-)
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 1, 2014 - 12:15pm PT
It's awesome how you keep coming back anyway Werner, love ya man.


While most observers and commentators have focused on Bundy’s recent statements on race, something far more problematic drives the standoff. Bundy, his family, and many of his supporters are part of the modern day Sovereign Movement, a loosely-knit group that subscribes to a complex system of bizarre legal theories. They believe that the current U.S. Government is an illegitimate sham, and, in the most extreme situations, they are willing to resort to violence when the courts and government agents don’t agree with their schemes.
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
May 1, 2014 - 12:17pm PT
Motorized-use enthusiasts in Monticello, UT, are taking a page from Bundy & co.

"Phil Lyman, San Juan County Commissioner, plans on May 8 to lead dozens of offroad vehicles into Recapture Canyon, near Blanding, which is closed by BLM to motorized use in order to protect archaeological sites. In 2009, an illegal route was built by motorized users in Recapture Canyon, severely damaging archaeological sites...."
**

http://www.moabsunnews.com/opinion/article_71bf4306-d043-11e3-a7e1-0017a43b2370.html



Wait a damn minnit here though: if the guvmint of san juan county is fighting the federal guvmint of san juan county, wunnit be like a snake eating its own tail and shettin' out some anarchistic goo? a reptilian centipede, if you wull?
John M

climber
May 1, 2014 - 12:18pm PT
There's only one guy here having anything to do with the subject matter of this thread.

I plead gross stupidity and ignorance your honor and humbly ask you to identify this lone subject.


I really don't know who you are talking about.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 1, 2014 - 12:18pm PT
Dingus, show them the big red reset button.
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
May 1, 2014 - 12:19pm PT
He's talking about himself, John (I think (?))....
John M

climber
May 1, 2014 - 12:21pm PT
He's talking about himself, John (I think (?))….

Don't think so.. Werner doesn't roll that way, though He definitely will tweak a persons hissy fit button. haha…
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 1, 2014 - 12:48pm PT
Or an oCOWpie MOOvement.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 1, 2014 - 12:52pm PT
Ron hasn't answered the question of is he part of the sovereign citizen "movement."

Don't hold your breath.
John M

climber
May 1, 2014 - 01:02pm PT
just realized that the red pill/ blue pill choice of the matrix is a subtle reinforcer of the image that the red state folks are willing to face reality ( never depend on the gov ) whereas blue state folks want illusion ( always depend the gov )

just found that interesting while pondering Dingus' red reset button. ( War is necessary, as the red staters would have us believe)

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 1, 2014 - 01:06pm PT
Thanks Dingus, thumbs up!

The sovereign kooks don't really want to take on the federal gov't. There's something about actual war that is just so unpleasant.

And there's something about the Big Red Reset Button, sworn to uphold the constitution and obey the presidents orders, that would be so unpleasant to do actual war against.


Edit: John, the red staters depend on the big bad gov't as much as the rest of us, but they'll never admit it because they're FREE Gdamnit!

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 1, 2014 - 01:14pm PT
Well I sure I hope he completes the paperwork.
In triplicate.
John M

climber
May 1, 2014 - 01:21pm PT
I'm aware of that Bruce. They believe that they see the truth, but mostly I believe that they are deceived as to how much truth that they have. Line them up and send them off to war. The dyed in the wool hardliners come back from war still believing in the glory of it.

The ones I trust are the ones that say "damn, I wonder if there was a way to avoid getting our country into that sh#t show". I believe in service to ones country and have great respect for that, but sometimes service also means saying no to feeding the war machine.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 1, 2014 - 01:22pm PT
Thanks to the Southern Poverty Law Center
Who know quite a bit about big bad government whacking innocent protesters over the head
AND about right wing racist whackos killing people.
The lower video on the page, obviously taken by a Bundyite (note the passive/aggressive narrative) is the most complete vid I've seen of the first dustup with the BLM. The BLM with dogs and tasers vs Bundyites where Ammon Bundy got tasered and I think his aunt got "tackled, pushed down, whatever" but ended up on the ground (unharmed)
http://splcenter.org/blog/2014/04/10/anti-government-patriots-gather-near-scene-of-nevada-ranchers-dispute-over-cattle-grazing-rights/
There is no video I've found showing the woman falling to the ground. So it's anyone's guess how violent it was.
More importantly it shows the nature of the confrontation. About 2/3 way through a big guy in an oranges shirt walks right into the group of BLM agents with dogs. Yes, the dogs get pretty darned aggro as they are trained to do. But the BLM restrain them. No one gets bitten (no one has claimed to be bitten). So poor ole Ammon Blundy got tasered? If it wasn't deliberately provoking it he's as stupid as his father.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 1, 2014 - 01:29pm PT
The sovereign kooks don't really want to take on the federal gov't
don't be so sure. There's always a suicidal element to fanaticism.
Like the whacko in Ohio earlier this year. Cops came to serve an arrest warrant. He came out of his house firing and got a bullet through the head. D'oh!

Now I know where dear Ron gets his nonsense and aggro spew. Thanks again to SPLC. I'd never heard of this Santilli whacko. He as much as incites violence near the end beginning about 7:30.
Interview with Blundy:
Nevada Rancher’s Interview With Volatile Talk Show Host Reveals His ‘Patriot’ Movement Leanings
http://www.splcenter.org/blog/topics/antigovernment/page/2/
Blundy "I will do whatever it takes....." Santilli "to defend your constitutional rights"
Santilli takes the credit for rousing the "militias".
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 1, 2014 - 01:37pm PT
more Santilli, post Blundy interview rant
As he wrapped up the rant, Santilli became even more explicitly violent, characterizing the Nevada showdown as a “fight to the death”:

Is it time now, at this point in time – if this is not THE issue, right now! Where we stand and fight to the absolute, and I say, death! There is no other option! The federal government must get out of the state of Nevada, with respect to that 600,000-acre ranch – they must leave. We want that to be done peacefully. If they don’t want it to happen peacefully, it is gonna be by their choice.

Santilli’s solution: Militiamen and “patriots” need to bring their guns:

Ladies and gentlemen, when I say, I’m calling upon every single American anywhere in the vicinity of Clark County, pool your money together, fill up your gas cans, get your cameras. If you’re in Nevada and you can legally carry, get weapons out there, OK? We’re going to stand and fight in Clark County, Nevada! They will leave or else!
SPLC
http://www.splcenter.org/blog/topics/antigovernment/page/2/
Now I know how/why the 1,000 or so (including women and children) "militias" showed up to confront the BLM. It has very little to do with puppet Bundy
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 1, 2014 - 01:46pm PT
My Dad and father-in-law never talked about WW2, it wasn't a pleasant experience for them. You couldn't pull it out of them. They kept it all inside. They didn't want to relive any of it.


These wanna-be like that as#@&%e sniper on the bridge need a quick, swift kick to the nuts. They make me ill.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
May 1, 2014 - 02:32pm PT

These wanna-be like that as#@&%e sniper on the bridge need a quick, swift kick to the nuts. They make me ill.

Good chance that the "as#@&%e sniper" is a government agent.

If he isn't, and he's still walking around freely, I really wonder about you all who think the gov did such a great job there.

(I suppose yet another possibility is somehow the picture was taken out of context, but I'm having hard time seeing that.)
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
May 1, 2014 - 02:33pm PT
does anyone really think that the gov did a "great job" here?
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
May 1, 2014 - 02:41pm PT
If he isn't, and he's still walking around freely, I really wonder about you all who think the gov did such a great job there.

I certainly think they didn't do a good job - yet.

The decision to defuse the standoff peacefully was a good one IMHO, but can also be viewed as giving in to threats of violence (i.e. terrorism). Unless some very concrete action is taken soon, the militia will be emboldened by this perceived "success".

TE
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 1, 2014 - 02:41pm PT
I think the gov't did just fine.

They have tried for years and years to get this clown to comply peacefully.

Let's face it, the BLM isn't in the biz of armed confrontation.

The fact that they backed out without any hillbillies getting shot is a testament to their restraint.

That doesn't make Timothy McBundy right, not by a long shot.
John M

climber
May 1, 2014 - 02:43pm PT
Good chance that the "as#@&%e sniper" is a government agent.

seriously doubt it unless he was undercover. no trained sniper would allow someone at their back. the militia said that they couldn't get close to the government snipers. There is a reason for that. It has to do with training.

If he isn't, and he's still walking around freely, I really wonder about you all who think the gov did such a great job there.

I haven't read anything on this forum that would lead me to believe that anyone here thinks that the government did a good job.

Edit: There is a difference in believing the gov had a right to do what they did and in whether they handled it well or not. this ones going to go down as a huge bungle as now people are starting to believe that the way to dispute the government is to show up with guns. Already happening.

http://www.moabsunnews.com/opinion/article_71bf4306-d043-11e3-a7e1-0017a43b2370.html

the thing is, once it was bungled was it a good idea to keep forcing it, or back off. I believe that it was a good idea to back off and try again another day with a better plan. One that includes officers who are better trained to deal with such people.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 1, 2014 - 02:51pm PT
Well they don't call him blahblah for nothing.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 1, 2014 - 03:00pm PT
The fact that they backed out without any hillbillies getting shot is a testament to their restraint.
BINGO
Lot of Monday morning quarterbacking here. In the face of deliberate and escalating armed insurrection with women and children as shields they backed down instead of calling in the Apaches and Cobras (deliberate exaggeration).
The Law has a long memory. The FBI always gets their man.

And all the bitching about the armed BLM. Damned good thing and I'll be a little less likely to complain about my local park Ranger and Yosemite Rangers packing in future.
It is specifically against the Constitution to use the US military to enforce federal law. They can however put down armed insurrection.
Ergo the well armed BLM/Fed Marshalls/FBI (assuming the FBI was there).
If you look at the videos they exercised commendable restraint when they could have arrested the Bundyites early on. Interfering with a Federal Officer in the execution of his legal duties.
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
May 1, 2014 - 03:03pm PT
Thanks John M, for bumping this impending BLM vs sovereign citizen-type debacle: a May 8 action of (civil or not we will see, nonviolent or not we will see) disobedience to federal law on federal jurisdiction land, near Blanding, UT.




How should the BLM handle this event, of which they have been forewarned? How will they handle it? What do you folks think of the article and the author's obviously pro-conservation stance?
http://www.moabsunnews.com/opinion/article_71bf4306-d043-11e3-a7e1-0017a43b2370.html

I too am more likely, HT, to accept the ARs and armament I previously deemed unnecessary on federal LEOs - but should they show up armed to the teeth for the May 8 action planned at Recapture Canyon? Should the motorized users show up armed to the gills and all liquored up? Should I go with a sunshade and lawnchair and an icy bottle of tequila? Should I throw the pebble that starts the firefight? Gawd this could get juicy - err bloody...
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
May 1, 2014 - 03:15pm PT
Since none of us know what the govt did, or did not do, how can you judge whether they did a "good job".

Guaranteed there was some infiltration. So without knowing what information those infiltrators were getting, what other surveillance they were doing, etc we really don't know.

THe whole thing could have been massively successful, or a complete keystone cops routine. The fact that none of the seditious shitkickers were killed is a good start. The probability that they id'd and are now monitoring a bunch of deranged traitor "sovereign citizens", is another good start.

Those dipshits in Alaska, Shaeffer Cox and his little friends, who were playing at being Lib-ur-tardian "Sovrun citizuns" and puffing their chest talking about assasinating federal judges and staging an armed revolt...yeah, they are in prison now. All over a tax evasion case...sound familiar?

http://www.newsminer.com/news/alaska_news/five-arrested-in-alleged-plot-to-kidnap-kill-alaska-state/article_8bf95fab-368e-518d-8f6f-776fc4f69992.html

A snippet:

Cox has used his case to challenge the authority of the Alaska Court System, calling himself a sovereign citizen and claiming the court is a for-profit corporation with no authority over him.

In a lengthy courtroom speech last year, Cox said he does not intend to cooperate with the court system, but he sees himself as a peacemaker between his supporters and the government.

The FBI describes the Sovereign Citizen Movement as a domestic terrorism group.

Members of the movement do not believe U.S. laws apply to them and sometimes make their own license plates or create their own legal trials, according to the FBI. A group of Fairbanks residents recently conducted their own trial of Cox at Denny’s Restaurant.

Cox has previously appeared as a public figure as gun rights activist and a legislative candidate. He unsuccessfully challenged Republican Rep. Mike Kelly in 2008.

He is a leader of the Alaska Peacemakers Militia and the Second Amendment Task Force. He has helped organize multiple gun-rights and personal freedoms rallies, including the 2009 “Freedom Fest” at the Carlson Center. Cox is a member of a “Liberty Bell network,” which sends out mass notifications to assemble a crowd of witnesses when a member believes his or her rights are being violated.

Cox was arrested on the weapons charge while supervising a search warrant as part of a Liberty Bell call.


Can't make this sh#t up. Atchafalaya nailed it...Burns Brigade Meeting at the Carson City Denny's has been canceled, moved to Jack in the Box next week. LOLZ.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
May 1, 2014 - 03:16pm PT
The Gubment has all kinds of ways to take these yahoo's out behind the woodshed. They made the right decision at the time to avoid a lot of needless bloodshed.

I am sure there are lots of people reviewing video tape etc., making a list and checking it twice to make sure they ID all the "naughty" little boys playing soldier.

thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
May 1, 2014 - 03:26pm PT
Kos: So what of the May 8th action in Recapture Canyon, pitting a local official (San Juan County Commissioner) and posse ('dozens' of ORV-types) against the BLM's road closure? Will it be good enough that I should get down there with an umbrella and an iced drink?

The BLM has got to be shitting bricks plotting an appropriate response....

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 1, 2014 - 03:29pm PT
Wait til the IRS gets done with him, he'll be wishing they had shot his fat azz.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 1, 2014 - 03:36pm PT
Since it is May Day, I will submit that Cliven Bundy got one thing correct: all property is theft!

"If I were asked to answer the following question: What is slavery? and I should answer in one word, It is murder!, my meaning would be understood at once. No extended argument would be required . .Why, then, to this other question: What is property? may I not likewise answer, It is robbery!, without the certainty of being misunderstood; the second proposition being no other than a transformation of the first?"

—Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

Marx thought Proudhon was a nut, but Bundy is down with his fellow anarchist.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 1, 2014 - 03:38pm PT
kid has an iPad app that makes realistic gun sounds...well he did until I told him to delete it
Smart Dad. Could've gotten him killed in some places.
I'm surprised Apple let that one into the store. I'll have to reread my developer's agreement.
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
May 1, 2014 - 03:39pm PT
that is so weird, y'know, I have been using this to lull me to sleep at night, now I have another use for it.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
May 1, 2014 - 04:43pm PT
Gary, you are my favorite communist.

Mine too!

John
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 1, 2014 - 04:44pm PT
Aww, shucks, fellas...
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
May 1, 2014 - 05:04pm PT
My Dad and father-in-law never talked about WW2, it wasn't a pleasant experience for them. You couldn't pull it out of them. They kept it all inside. They didn't want to relive any of it.

That's exactly my experience, Bob. Although I was 1A in 1969, I never had to serve in Viet Nam. Still, I lost friends there, and those who returned didn't care to relive those days.

My father was almost 41 when they bombed Pearl Harbor, volunteered for the Navy and, to his astonishment, was accepted for the Sea Bees. He helped build the airbase on Guam under fire, but also buried a lot of Japanese war dead. He never told us any of this, but we were able to find out about it from some of his fellow Sea Bees who visited us. He never initiated a conversation about it.

His youngest sister (and the person most responsible for my love of the mountains, music and the game of bridge) was a lieutenant in the WACs as a nurse on a hospital ship in WWII and, again, we had to pry anything about the war out of her. On the day she died, I discovered a large envelope containing her first lieutenant bars and a whole mess of ribbons in her dresser drawer. She never talked about them, and I still have no idea what most of them were for, although I have been able to identify various decorations for particular theaters of operations, including off Cherbourg in July of 1944, and a lot of areas in the Marianas.

I knew my father-in-law was a radioman on a B-24 in the Pacific only because he told me that's why he couldn't hear that well, and why he didn't care to travel by air. On the day of his brother's funeral two years ago, his niece brought his brother's scrapbook, including an article in the Fresno Bee in early 1945 about my father-in-law's medal he won for bravery during the bombardment of Iwo Jima preceding the invasion. My father-in-law never said a thing about that and now, with his Alzheimer's-like dementia, remembers nothing about it. It's probably merciful that he doesn't.

War is the greatest violence we commit against each other, and all I know who've been through it hate it with a consuming passion. While I know military action remains necessary, and have the greatest respect for those who endured combat, I lose no love for those who would glorify it.

John
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
May 1, 2014 - 05:16pm PT
The FBI describes the Sovereign Citizen Movement as a domestic terrorism group.

I've had to deal with various crackpot offshoots of that movement over the years in connection with foreclosure actions. They certainly remain unencumbered by a knowledge of, or respect for, the law. Even without physical violence, they've caused all sorts of problems gumming up various courts. After losing a particularly vitriolic motion in bankruptcy court, one of the movement showed his eloquence and erudition by posting a sign on his soon-to-be-former property, facing Highway 99, that read "Pigs and Judges ain't bolitproof. [sic]"

Nice guys, I'm sure.

John
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 1, 2014 - 06:35pm PT
John...my number was 17 in 1971, my dad told me I wasn't going to war.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
May 1, 2014 - 07:02pm PT
Crankster--as I and others have noted, the most ridiculousguys there are probably undercover federal agents. it is funny, sort of, but I stop laughing when I pause to consider who is paying for all this nonsense.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 1, 2014 - 08:26pm PT
Crankster--as I and others have noted, the most ridiculousguys there are probably undercover federal agents. it is funny, sort of, but I stop laughing when I pause to consider who is paying for all this nonsense.
Laughably stupid.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
May 1, 2014 - 08:37pm PT
My dad made a big point of discourageing me from going in the army. He rarely talked about the war ETO Colmar pocket, Bulge etc. I do have a few of his letters to his cousin who got hit real bad @ Anzio. My dad was hit january 45, back in the line febuary.

Interesting to note that a huge contigent of our modern professional army thrives on combat. Generation Kill is just one of many good books out there about our modern armed forces. Get Some! I believe this mentality derives from total air superiority as well as fire superiority in all other areas. Operating in target rich enviornments with relativly few casultys. We have multiple snipers racking up 200+ kills. Most of the hajis can't hit sh#t. They spray and pray while our guys mostly have eotechs ( really nice red dot w/1 moa dot) and ACOG's superb 4x scope as well as night vision and more sh#t on call than you could possibly imagin. Insurgent have no artilery or air and their mortar fire is usualy indirect. It is easy to think war is fun with those kinds of odds.

In WW11 both the japanese and Germans had excelent air force, excelent navy, excelent artilery, excelent marksmanship. the germans had arguably the best field artilery piece of the war in their 88mm multi purpose gun as well as much better tanks than us. germans also had better and heavier mortars and The best light machinegun of the war (MG44). Fighting these guys was not fun. My dads company lost 14 guys one morning. Entire brigades often did not lose that many in a full years deployment in 2003-2013. There were more casualtys in 45 min @ Iwo Jima than in 10 years of the hottest part of our modern conflict.
In Viet nam the NVA were excelent shots, they had very good mortars and artilery, their 120mm cannon were nasty, fighting those guys was not fun!

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 1, 2014 - 08:46pm PT
But Fightin' the BLM and the Gubmint orta be a hootin nanny.



Get it?
Cause nannys iz wimin and wimin n chillin iz up front n first and they be hootin.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 1, 2014 - 09:02pm PT
Dammit Locker that pic from my Task Force days is supposed to be classified. What are you on Ed Snowden's email list or something?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 1, 2014 - 09:05pm PT
All righ dammitt if my "Task Force" medal from RunOld RayGun won't get me clearance past the oCOWpie MOOvers then I guess NerdVada is off my radar and my plan to return to the Res Arête scuttled. Any one up for a little "Black" action?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 1, 2014 - 09:22pm PT
Several have posted about their relatives, and not knowing about what they did in their respective wars.

Because of a friend, I know that it is possible to obtain the military records of relatives. Some may want to access that information.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 1, 2014 - 09:39pm PT
My dad's perspective was somewhat different. A pacifist conscript Royal Navy Lt Commander. Gunboats, corvettes and destroyers. Arctic convoys to Archangel and Murmansk in winter. Searching for subs and E boats in the coastal waters of the UK. Close in (about 3 miles) fire support ahead of the troops at Normandy. He said little about actual combat and nothing about the men he lost and the horrors he saw. My father served from 1940 through '46. With only shore leave. Luckily all his family avoided death.
The British, Germans, Dutch, Poles, Japanese, Italians and Russians had an experience of war Americans didn't. Not even US troops in combat. Let's not forget the Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals and Socialists imprisoned, tortured and slaughtered by the millions by the Nazis.
Their cities were destroyed, their women and children killed, their economies devastated. Rationed food, to the point of privation in England and starvation in Germany, Russia and Japan. My aunt and her daughter were moved with my grandparents to the countryside far from any city in spring of 1939 while my uncle remained in London as a Bobby. You can imagine what he went through. He never spoke of the war either.
For the destroyed countries, the war wasn't over until the early 50's. In 1947 and 48 my mother, in London, had to stand in line with ration coupons for milk, bread, eggs, flour, vegetables. A car, nylons? Fuggedabouddit. With rubble in the streets. Rationing didn't completely end in UK until about 1954.
The US and Canadian troops went to battle, were killed or wounded or not and came back to a still intact society. They saw Hell and the Dogs of War, knowing their families were safe at home.

You will notice that the countries at each others throats (excepting USSR and China) are now close allies and genuinely consider themselves friends. Even the former Soviet puppet states like Latvia, Poland, the Czech and Slovakian republics are part of Europe. There's a lesson in that.
They have put mutual benefit ahead of belligerence and anarchy as much as possible.

Not sure what this has to do with "militias" except perhaps true loyalty to country, English, German, Japanese, Russian whatever.
"Patriots" refusing to accept US law at Bundyville? Disgraceful.
I didn't see any of them standing unarmed and quietly by their signs while being handcuffed like many Vietnam War protestors. ChickenSH*t. Protesting behind children, women and guns? Cowardly.

9/11 was very bad, the worst ever for US civilians since the Civil War. Less than the first day US fatalities at Omaha Beach. Less than an average night fire bombing Coventry, Dresden or Tokyo. Read Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse Five. He was in the Dresden fire bombing. You might weep.
You could count all our dead from Iraq and Afghanistan and you'd have less than the worst day of Russian civilian deaths at Stalingrad or the pogrom in the Warsaw Ghetto.

Perhaps that's why we've been so eager for Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. We've got NO idea.
~end of rant~

Ken M
I'll be doing that next time I go to London, hopefully this November. I have my father's medals, three pics in uniform and a trunk of censored letters between he and me mum.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 1, 2014 - 09:48pm PT
They estimate that Russia loss during WW2 was 21 to 28 million. The US comes in around 425,000.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 1, 2014 - 10:09pm PT
The Tighty Whities seem to have abandoned this thread like FoX Noise talking heads bailed on Bundy.
Public Embarrassment will do that.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 1, 2014 - 10:19pm PT
6 million murdered Jews a conservative estimate.
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
May 1, 2014 - 10:20pm PT
Funny sh#t, Locker
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
May 1, 2014 - 10:23pm PT
I knew it! Philo's been on the take this whole time!

Hahaha!
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
May 1, 2014 - 10:26pm PT
Come to think of it, Reagan's right, black, hand bears some resemblance to the Bundyite 'sniper poseur' on the bridge in Bunkerville!

Can anyone corroborate Philo's whereabouts on that day? Is he a triple agent?

We already know that he is a provocative agent, but is he an agent provocateur provoker?

EDIT: I have just been fed. Post solo endorphins, some nice asada, well fed.


EDIT x2: Package sez Bundy Beef.... Blech, tastes like federal subsidy!
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 1, 2014 - 10:32pm PT

The Tighty Whities seem to have abandoned this thread like FoX Noise talking heads bailed on Bundy.
Public Embarrassment will do that.

They all have Benghazi Fever. Faux has moved on.
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
May 1, 2014 - 10:36pm PT
Benghazi Fever sounds worse than that rash on my thigh after I ran 38 miles. Should I have worn whitey tighties? Should I wear whitey tighties? Is that what is wrong with my lead head?
Sanskara

climber
May 1, 2014 - 11:31pm PT
Bravecovboy:

Get yourself one of these. It should solve most of the chaff. 38 miles sounds like an awesome run. I'd give anything to be able to run again..

http://nickburgoyne.com/bouncypuppy/penis_gourd.htm

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
May 2, 2014 - 03:20am PT
False flag gauntlet has been thrown! I'm amazed it took this long.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 2, 2014 - 05:57am PT
You people, one side thinking the feds are out to get ya, (they are damnit!), and the other thinking the armed militia is standing up for your rights.


"You people" comes across like "The Negro".
Ignorant blanket statements from the un-tied States of ignorance.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 2, 2014 - 06:02am PT

I struggled to watch a puff piece interview with Ol' Cliven's son who tried desperately to present himself to his adoring rabble that he was a scholar of Constitutional law. What he proved was the above statement is very true.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 2, 2014 - 07:19am PT
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 2, 2014 - 09:21am PT
Philo

how do we know Bundy is a millionaire?

where did you see that?
dirtbag

climber
May 2, 2014 - 09:43am PT
You forgot benghazzzzz...zzzzzzzz...zzz...
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
May 2, 2014 - 09:53am PT
All is not well in Bunkerville. Rumor of an incoming drone controlled by the infamous Attorney General Eric Holder was bearing down on the Bundy stronghold intent on killing all of the Freedom Fighters in Freedomville was causing fear to run rampant through the otherwise stalwart ranks of the True Patriots! One sect, known as "Oath Keepers," decided that Keeping their Oath to having an intact integumentary system was more important than their Commitment to Freedom and chose to flee the Promised Land! This has not sat well with other Bundy Defenders who are refusing to let any Oath Keepers back into the lush valley of Bunkerville calling them traitors!

http://gawker.com/nevada-ranch-militias-turn-against-each-other-over-dron-1570140614

[Click to View YouTube Video]
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 2, 2014 - 09:53am PT
Ben Ghazi, I liked him in the original Fugitive.

Watching that video made me think "Lord of the horseflies".

So who feeds these fatbois while they are getting in the way of farm operations?
Will they shoot Clivin when even he gets sick of them and tells them all to vamoose?
dirtbag

climber
May 2, 2014 - 10:01am PT
Funny sheet hddj.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 2, 2014 - 10:03am PT
Hey Ron aren't you and the Oaf Creapers traitors to the cause now?

Do you have to show your ID to vigilantes at "Patriot" check points?
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 2, 2014 - 10:06am PT
Ron, start a nutso Benghazi thread. Title it "Things I Heard on Hannity Tonight Now That Bundy is Exposed As A Racist Kook".

Fox viewers. Brains the size of a flea. A real small flea. Like a microscopic flea.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
May 2, 2014 - 10:08am PT
Ron screeched
But do yammer on about such things as basket ball team owners that have ZERO to do with you or anyone else

Exactly. Because black people aren't people. Good point, Ron. Tell us a little more of what you know about "the negro."
dirtbag

climber
May 2, 2014 - 10:18am PT
Yeah sterling is as relevant as Boondy and the oaf creepers. Now it's time to retreat to your little compounds and wait until the end times.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
May 2, 2014 - 10:32am PT
Who gives a rip about some rich SOB racist talking idiot? He owns a basketball team. Big whoop. ZERO to do with the rest of the world. But do by all means ignore the fact a president and his cabinet LIED through their teeth to make themselves look better for upcoming elections. PATHETIC. Seems some LOVE to be behind liars here. High fives all around!!!

If you CAPITALIZE words for EMPHASIS and use lots of exclamation points you can INSIST that anything is TRUE!
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 2, 2014 - 10:32am PT
DMT wrote: You're better than them, bro. Don't fall for that sh#t.



No he is not as he has proven a number times on this forum. The dude is a right wing gun toting nut job.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 2, 2014 - 10:34am PT
Speaking of LIES to make a Presidential administration look good for re-election may I remind you of a few whoppers.

WMD!
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

and a personal favorite of mine from Ol Poppy Bush
Read my lips NO NEW TAXES!

Careful; what you bitch about Rong it may come back to puke on you.
You can claim many things like that your not a Fox News watcher or not a republican or whatever else but you are clearly motivated by an over-riding and irrational loathing of the Democrats who you claim are just the same as the Republicans you never criticize or chastise. Which clearly makes you either a partisan hack or a witless tool.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
May 2, 2014 - 10:34am PT
Ron posted
Who gives a rip about some rich SOB racist talking idiot? He owns some cows and grazes them illegally on federal land. Big whoop. ZERO to do with the rest of the world.

Fixed that for you.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 2, 2014 - 10:35am PT
Except isn't Clivin's socialist beef feeding meat to the world?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 2, 2014 - 10:42am PT
Will they let you back if you bring a case of CheeseWhiz and Funnyuns?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 2, 2014 - 10:43am PT

Perhaps that's why we've been so eager for Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. We've got NO idea.

Note that the politicians who were veterans of Vietnam (mostly Democrats, why is that?)were skeptical of Iraq/ It was the Republican draft evaders and deserters who were all gung-ho for war.

Ben Gazzara is best remembered for Vanishing Point. Great movie!

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 2, 2014 - 10:47am PT
Political ChickenHawks like Dick Chenney are the slime stuck to the cowboi boots in BunkerStan.


Dingus don't forget the "Veins in their teeth" frothing patriots that wanted the Lawd's vengence and were willing to tar, feather and disembowel any one anti-American enough to say "hey wait a minute can we talk about this a little first".

Cant fight the tide.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
May 2, 2014 - 10:51am PT
Nevada police talk about how close things came to a big shootout:

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25395552/i-team-police-faced-possible-bloodbath-at-bundy-protest


Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 2, 2014 - 10:57am PT
Freaking democrats were scare shitless after 9/11. I agree with DMT, they carry llod on their hands too.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
May 2, 2014 - 11:00am PT
Hey, Ron. Have any of your militia buddies floated the possibility that the fact that they pointed guns at federal officers and then a drone strike DIDN'T blow them all up as perhaps evidence that they AREN'T being ruled by a tyrannical dictatorship? Because seriously, an actual tyrant would have no problem just declaring them all traitors and napalming the whole ranch.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
May 2, 2014 - 11:05am PT

You'll notice an abrupt increase in the number of militia groups in 2009 obviously correlating with the huge increase in black pres...er...I mean tyranny.

(The graph is based on Southern Poverty Law Center numbers)


Ron sneered
HD i see your a lying dem too. fabricating quotes

I am so not surprised that went entirely over your head.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 2, 2014 - 11:15am PT
Gee I wonder why those militia groups seemed to settle down during the years between Clinton's tyranny and Obama's tyranny?
I can only assume that they saw no Gubmint Ovareach or diminishing of Civil Liberties under Spurious George.
How convenient.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 2, 2014 - 11:23am PT
Hddj. That is one of the best graphs I've ever seen and so absolutely true. Why don't dems start arming to the teeth and parading around like fools when a Republican is elected?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 2, 2014 - 11:25am PT
Because Survival Dems are not Rong about everything.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 2, 2014 - 11:34am PT
Fear runs so deep in those militia types,its kind of mind boggling. I'm just so damn glad that I live in a great country where the government cares about its citizens and tries to do right by them. The good news is that my country is better than the country the white supremacists live in.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 2, 2014 - 11:44am PT
LAS VEGAS -- Tensions have subsided and the crowds of armed militia around rancher Cliven Bundy have largely dispersed, but the situation is far from resolved.

Federal officials are exploring their legal options, and Metro Police confirm that an investigation is ongoing. What has not been made public is just how close things came to an all-out gun battle. Some of those who were on the front lines spoke exclusively to the I-Team's George Knapp.

When the Bureau of Land Management mobilized to go after Bundy's cattle two years ago, they did so under an administrative order. This time, it was considered a criminal matter, and the I-Team has learned that order went all the way to the White House for approval.

When it became apparent that things were not going well in Bunkerville and hundreds of armed Bundy supporters were on the scene, Metro found itself right in the middle, a very dangerous place to be.

"We didn't show any fear that day, but I can tell you, we all thought in the back of our minds, we all thought it was going to be our last day on earth, if it went bad," said Sgt. Tom Jenkins of the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department.

He is more familiar with the craziness of the Las Vegas Strip, which is where he and his squad usually work to keep the peace. But when things began to turn ugly in Bunkerville earlier this month, two squads of patrol officers, along with a SWAT unit, were dispatched to the scene.

"We were told, we're going to go down there and we're going to get between the BLM and the protesters. We were going, okay, we've been there before, but as we were driving up, it was like a movie set. It didn't look real; people in the back of pickup trucks with rifles and shotguns," Jenkins said. "It was hard to grasp that at the beginning."

Approximately 30 Metro officers stood between a crowd of 400 heavily armed, self- described militia and the federal employees who had gathered a few hundred head of Bundy's cattle. As the crowd swelled and tempers flared, many in the crowd tried to goad the police, hurling taunts and insults.

"They had no respect for authority. Everything that you can think of to call a human being, animals, everything," Jenkins said.

One person in the crowd even asked Jenkins if he was ready to die.

"I don't know his name. He was wearing a Pittsburgh Steelers jersey. I'll never forget that," he said.

Shuttling back and forth between the Bundy forces and BLM was Assistant Sheriff Joe Lombardo, who'd been left in charge by Sheriff Doug Gillespie. He was trying to keep everyone calm.

"The bottom line is, bloodshed over cattle, unacceptable. Nobody wanted to go in that direction," Lombardo said.

But the police were to learn, some in the crowd did want to go in that direction. Even Lombardo was on the receiving end.

"It was a scary point in itself. They were in my face yelling profanities and pointing weapons. The Bundy son himself, that I was negotiating with, Dave, he did not do that, but all the associated people around him did do that," Lombardo said.

Metro officers deal with large crowds all the time, but nothing like this. The crowd included former military men and ex-cops, people with various motives, their fingers poised just above the triggers of powerful weapons. With so much firepower in so many hands, a small incident could have set off a bloodbath and left nearly two dozen officers dead.

Assist. Sheriff Joe Lombardo:"We were outgunned, outmanned and there would not have been a good result from it."
I-Team reporter George Knapp: "A lot of scenarios could have played out that would have left a lot of dead officers."
Assist. Sheriff Joe Lombardo: "If you just have a backfire, somebody pops a firecracker, then it's over. We're done. We are going to lose that battle that day."

Metro pointedly did not allow officers to put on helmets or protective gear for fear it might be seen as a provocation. At the urging of Cliven Bundy, the crowd moved toward the BLM compound. Rhetoric grew more heated, and guns were pointed at officers.

One Bundy supporter summed it up, "Had to happen sometime, might as well happen now, right?"

"Some of them, there's no doubt from talking to me, want it, to get a chance that day to fire upon a police officer or authority period. I don't think it mattered if it was BLM or us," Jenkins said.

As the crowd closed in on the BLM compound, and tensions approached critical mass, Lombardo made the call to release the cattle and diffuse the situation.

"Sometimes in public safety, it is hard to back down. We are not trained to operate that way, but they took the better route, and it was the right way to go," Lombardo said. "It's all about lives. I mean, what is the better route to go? To be right or to be effective? "

If one tiny mistake had been made, the community might be attending funerals for slain police officers, law enforcement officials said. Dozens of people could have been killed if shooting had broken out.

The I-Team has learned that those who were involved in threatening the lives of officers are not off the hook, even if it takes a year or more to resolve.
http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25395552/i-team-police-faced-possible-bloodbath-at-bundy-protest
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
May 2, 2014 - 12:17pm PT
Fu ck them and the handful of losers here who have defended them as being the better people.

Seriously fu ck you.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 2, 2014 - 12:19pm PT
Come on Fluffy don't hold back mincing words tell us what you really think. LOL
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 2, 2014 - 12:19pm PT
Norton's post illuminates just how dangerous these militia groups are, Ron included. They are clearly deranged. Trying to have any kind of meaningful debate with them is impossible.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 2, 2014 - 12:21pm PT
Ron's heroes...what a wonderful lot.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 2, 2014 - 12:23pm PT
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
May 2, 2014 - 12:32pm PT
http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/bundy-ranch-uncensored

BUNKERVILLE, Nevada -- At the Bundy camp last week, pundits and politicians descended on Bunkerville, Nevada, to throw in their American flag hats with the BLM protestors. A FOX news van had been parked by the side of the road for days. Up on the ridge, militia snipers kept a trained watch as Bundy held court, and disciples from far and wide came to share their personal theories as to why the government was enforcing a court order.

But on Thursday, we witnessed a mainstream exodus from Bundy’s flank. Sean Hannity, Bundy’s biggest booster, called his racist remarks “beyond despicable,” but maintained that they should not taint the supporters who “for the right reasons saw this case as government overreach.”

Exactly how difficult was it, though, to determine pretty early on that Bundy and his followers were using the threat of force to back up some terrifyingly misguided beliefs?

During the few hours I visited last week, this was what was said.

In the background, a singer with an American-flag guitar warms up the stage with a raspy hollering he explains as Tibetan throat singing. Suddenly noticing a man off to the side shaking maracas, he stops and grips the mic:

"Is there really a black man in the house?” A lone “whoo” goes up from the folding chairs. "You’re with the media, right?” The cameraman nods, and the singer returns his focus to the folding chairs. “So, are we racists here today? That’s how they’re trying to spin this one — this is good. Channel 13 came at me the other day — a cute little blonde, of course. They sent her at me, y’know, go get the story! Go get the radical…” The generator cuts out, silencing the mic, and the story about how he isn’t a racist is lost.

A militia member with the group Oath Keepers named Mark, who drove in from out of state by way of Zion National Park (“which was absolutely beautiful — you should go”), offers to explain to me the truth behind public land management.

"The assumption is that the BLM is part of the federal government. But we need to check the facts on that one. The BLM doesn’t work for the government: they work for the United Nations. They might as well be wearing blue helmets. If we find out there’s money being exchanged between Harry Reid and the Chinese government, no one should be surprised.”

A self-trained lawyer tells me the same. He adds that Bar-certified lawyers, like the ones who prosecuted Bundy, have sworn loyalty to the British government, whose statutes encourage sex with clients. “That’s what they do with all their clients.”

It’s dizzying and hot at the camp, and a very friendly man named Roy, wearing an Obama t-shirt with a joker smile painted on, hands me a cold bottle. He's from nearby Mesquite and has been a close friend and supporter of Bundy's these last few years. When I tell him I’m from New Mexico, the former cop says he has a very good buddy who used to work as a sheriff in my area.

“He got in a bit of trouble,” he chuckles. “He pulled over a carload of illegals one night, didn’t have room to haul ‘em all, so he put a chain around their neck and put a padlock through it, went to the next one, then he chained ‘em to a tree!”

He buckles with laughter as the story heats up. “Then he left ‘em and went to town to get his pickup to haul ‘em all back in. So, you might imagine, that didn’t play well — ha! You’re a young’un, but everything wasn’t against the law, way back when.”

He says it's now being proved that the BLM acted on orders from Troy and Harry Reid, who want to build a solar farm on the land — or a wind farm, he says. He recommends that I look up a Fox News segment that explains how the government is trying to put people out of work, “’Enemy of the State’, it’s called.”

Soon enough, a handful of junior politicians and the Bundy family are ushered on stage with a full compliment of assault-weaponed militia and a man with binoculars.

The crowd, fresh off their victory at the Battle of Bunkerville, gives Bundy a standing ovation. But he doesn’t seem pleased. He reproaches the crowd for failing to follow the word of God – to the letter – which he says is being delivered through him. They failed, for example, to follow his instructions to tear down the toll booths at Lake Mead and disarm the Park Service.

"The message I gave to you all was a revelation that I received. And yet not one of you can seem to even quote it.”

Cliven continues, sermon-like: "The records of our bible — how long have they been kept? Thousands of years. They’ve been turned over generation after generation, buried, and all kinds of things happen to ‘em. And yet, here, something I felt was inspired [by God] and yet we haven’t even carried it forth for even a couple of days. Shame on us.” Smattering of clapping.

He goes on to explain that, although they managed to deter the BLM, they failed to do it "within one hour," as the revelation had prophesied. So when an hour passes, he decides to get in his bulldozer and march on the BLM himself. The dozer gets stuck in the mud and he receives another revelation.

“It come to my mind real plain — the good Lord said, ‘Bundy, it’s not your job, it’s THEIR job.’ So we come back over here and heard that they had brought some cattle back. So I want you to understand,” he said. "This is not my job, it’s YOUR job.

"This morning, I said a prayer, and this is what I received. I heard a voice say, 'Sheriff Gillespie, your work is not done. Every sheriff across the United States, take the guns away from the United States bureaucrats.’” Lots of clapping for this.

Bundy goes on for a good while and militia members are forced to leave their chairs to walk around and get water.

A former Arizona sheriff turned Texas political candidate, Richard Mack, speaks next.

“I don’t believe the BLM has any authority whatsoever — they have no law enforcement authority in Clark County.” In conclusion he yells into the microphone, “(William Wallace!) FREEEDOOOOOM!"

After the speeches, Nevada Assemblywoman Michelle Fiore steps off the stage. Wearing a diamond-studded pistol pendant, she raises her eyebrows in the direction of a shadowy government operation. "When you really look at this, it’s not about the environmental stuff — it’s a lot deeper than what’s coming out in the media.”

In the downtime, a group of men laments the way the world has changed. Obama, a Muslim Kenyan, doesn't let kids say the pledge in school anymore. Steve, from Beaver, Utah, says it’s all down to regulation and changes that happened during Vietnam. “I want it to be like it was growing up in the fifties. I want it to be just like that — for [the kids]. Though it can’t be just like that, because they have the internet.”

"That's what's wrong: the Internet," agrees another.

Behind us, an older man, whose face is cut up from tumbling down a hill during the protest, gets into his beige sedan to leave. It's covered in lettering:

IF YOU WERE BORN IN 1980 AND AFTER. YOU MAY BE IMPLANTED WITH A GOVERNMENT MICROCHIP WITHOUT YOUR KNOWLEDGE: GOOGLE DOCTORS THAT REMOVE MICROCHIPS.

"Google MKUltra,” he says cryptically, “Then you’ll find what I’m about.”

Before leaving the Bunkerville trenches, I watch Sean Hannity's Bundy segment that aired the day before the militias took up arms against the BLM. Hannity mistakenly asserts that the federal government is trying to kick him off state land — and then he says something that only makes sense in the context of the Bundy camp.

“I’m worried about the lies that are told to us about the NSA, about the IRS, about what happened in Benghazi, and the lies that sold healthcare. I’m frankly concerned that the government is making a deal over someth—" before going too far, Hannity cuts himself off and changes course. "I don’t know why they’re taking a stand here. Has anyone given you any information why?”

Welfare negroes, the United Nations, sexually devious lawyers, satan, a Chinese solar farm, microchips, secret-agent NPS, a Muslim-Kenyan president, hippies, illegals. Take your pick.


philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 2, 2014 - 12:46pm PT
Look Out Murika, Clivin he's a revelatin' now.
Gawd is speakin thru him. Yippeeeeeeeeeeee
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 2, 2014 - 01:12pm PT
Another priceless post from HHDJ.

What say ye Ronbraham? Oh wait, you can't comment, you're out there at the ranch taking your shift on the wall.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 2, 2014 - 01:13pm PT
The Vegas I-TV (Investigative TV?) piece quoted above is good reading.
Nothing that I didn't already know or strongly suspect. But good to have it all in one place.
The I-Team has learned that those who were involved in threatening the lives of officers are not off the hook, even if it takes a year or more to resolve.
Not even this surprises me.

The Esquire piece is really good!

Blundy's revelations?
WOW that is news.
But no surprise. Whacko Mormons (only a tiny tiny percentage of Mormons) are often revelators. That's how the polygamists just up the road from Blundy know which 13 year old girls to take as wives. (see Krakauer etc etc, plus I actually know one from high school)
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
May 2, 2014 - 01:15pm PT
I'm just so damn glad that I live in a great country where the government cares about its citizens and tries to do right by them.

Duuuude! I had no idea you'd moved to Denmark...or is it Sweden?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 2, 2014 - 01:20pm PT
HT, I know lots of Mormons from spending a few years in _ _ _ _ _ New Mexico. 99% are wonderful hard working people that would not take up arms against their own government, at least without something a helluva lot more severe than illegal grazing. These militia dudes are all just waiting for an excuse to hate their own ELECTED government.
Strange, I haven't seen a single one of my Mormon friends in Bundy's Special Forces.


Edit:
Duuuude! I had no idea you'd moved to Denmark...or is it Sweden?


Duuuuuude, I would never live in one of those gdamn socialist gdamn communes. Wait, they have lots of hot chicks right? Ok, maybe I would....
Hell it might even be better than whack job fundamentalville.



Edit part dos: "drone strike" BWA HA HA HA HA hahahahahaaaaaa!!!!
My f*#kin stomach hurts. You can't make this sh#t up.



Edit part tres: Is Ron a deserter even though he hasn't actually been there? So confusing being a freedom fighter.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 2, 2014 - 01:20pm PT
Survival, Rong can't go back to Bunkerstan. Didn't you read about the Oath Breakers and their desertion. He's a traitor to the cause now, a man without a country only a gun shop.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 2, 2014 - 01:33pm PT
survival
indeed. I tried to be clear that 99.99% of Mormons are fine people. I grew up in SLC and 90% of my friends until college were Mormons. A good friend of mine was run over by a tractor on his mission a month after graduation. One of my good friends converted to LDS in college (aaack!).
Bundy has mentioned his Mormon ancestry more than once. I'm not calling him a polygamist. Just pointing out that revelations are a common occurrence among the fringe including the polygamists. I mean if god tells you to do it you must do it! It's also well known that the polygamists have settled along Utah's borders with Idaho and Arizona/Nevada for over 100 years to escape "persecution". I knew that 30 years before Krakauer wrote "Under The Banner Of Heaven".
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 2, 2014 - 01:36pm PT
I hear you man. I have a very similar background.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 2, 2014 - 01:41pm PT
I've been wondering about the good people of Mesquite being tarred by the Bundy bunch.
The only person I've ever known from Mesquite was a good friend of my dad's. A retired Vietnam War airborne special forces colonel who moved there with his wife, I knew them pretty well. A very heads up guy from Kentucky. I'm sure Roy's clawing at his casket eager to go toe to toe with the Blundyites and dress them down for what they are.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 2, 2014 - 01:45pm PT
Yeah, none of the Oath Keepers I served with are out there.

Weird.





Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
May 2, 2014 - 01:51pm PT
Pretty interesting how short sighted people are.

I mean, when a bank robber or some hijacker takes a bunch of hostages, do they ever think about how many times in history that strategy has ever worked out?

Bundy is over in his ranch, having hundreds of Yahoo guests, now stressed amongst themselves. Do they really think the federal government will just go away and allow this precedent to be set?
Do they really think that if it comes to force, that they will win and get what they want? Wouldn't they have to overthrow the entire federal government for that?

I don't always agree with Obama but he's no pacifist ultimately and his MO is clear, no in your face war but rather a strategic targeted response (even if there is collateral damage)

Funny the Benghazi cry comes up. Were those same people calling for investigations over Tilman's friendly fire killing (lies and coverup) the falling of Saddams statue, massacres here and there, fake rescue of Jessica Lynch, Iran Contra and the rest?

Nobody is saying the government attacked itself in Benghazi and since when does the military (not to mention CIA etc) like to announce everything that happened and what they are up to

Peace

Karl
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 2, 2014 - 01:54pm PT
Ok, wow, I read that 3 times Bruce, and I'm not quite sure what you said. It appears to be very tongue in cheek.

But I'm pretty slow from too many years of loud noises, 'splain me more....
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 2, 2014 - 02:15pm PT
Retired military men are NOT out there by the thousands.

Retired military men do NOT have a special obligation to speak out against any of this, any more than you do.

My friends don't live anywhere near this mess.

Don't try and put this on the lap of my friends and neighbors.

I was not trying to associate myself or friends or comrades with the "Oath Keepers" from NV scene in ANY WAY.



Edit: From the Oath Keepers Page:
Oath Keepers is a non-partisan association of current and formerly serving military, reserves, National Guard, veterans, Peace Officers, and Fire Fighters who will fulfill the Oath we swore, with the support of like minded citizens who take an Oath to stand with us, to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, so help us God. Our Oath is to the Constitution

They forgot to add that us military men also swore an oath to follow the orders of the president.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 2, 2014 - 02:20pm PT
Bruce
If you were speaking of my Colonel friend you missed the important bit: "clawing at his casket". Roy died several years ago. He would certainly be strenuously objecting.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 2, 2014 - 02:24pm PT
No HT, no problem with your colonel friend at all. we're good.

Edit: Not sure which Bruce you were talking to. Damn, defending the constipation is hard!!
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 2, 2014 - 02:31pm PT
survival
Didn't know you're also Bruce
pleased to meetcha
Fred

BK
no worries myte
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 2, 2014 - 02:38pm PT
HA HA HA HA hahahaaa! Classic Superdopo mix-up. No problem fellas.

WBraun

climber
May 2, 2014 - 02:39pm PT
Bruce Kay is drunk again.

1 single Karl Baba post is worth more than 100 dumb stupid Bruce Kay useless everyday posts on this forum ....
WBraun

climber
May 2, 2014 - 03:44pm PT
I don't lurk.

I came in for lunch for like 10 minutes.

While YOU waste away in here .....
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 2, 2014 - 03:46pm PT
It gets really good around the 5 minute mark, and even better around 8 minutes when Bundy wants stuff delivered "under these flags". Which flags are those Cliven? The US flag you don't recognize?

"In one hour" damn, that's funny.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 2, 2014 - 04:26pm PT
Here is more info from Stewart Rhodes and company on the rift between the alleged “leaders” of the militia down at the Bundy Ranch. This debriefing focuses on just a few men who would sabotage Oath Keepers’ mission at the Bundy Ranch. It explains some sequences and some activities which you’ve not heard about before.

Please understand that Oath Keepers has great faith in the majority of good men and women in the militias represented at the Ranch. We just have problems with people who want to stir up trouble, for such people are most often what we call “Agents Provocateur”. We are not accusing anyone of being an agent provocateur, but we are definitely identifying certain actions and statements by questionable men as being exactly the sort of activity an agent provocateur would display. It is just a few, and we think that the greater majority of militiamen and militiawomen serving there are tops, and you have our support and our gratitude for your sacrifice for the Bundy Ranch mission. Well done. Oath Keepers suggests that you do question your leadership to be sure they are who and what they claim to be. We would especially encourage people to look into any claims about any specialty service in the military that any of the current leaders might claim.

But note please – this debriefing session with five Oath Keepers is important, but this only covers one aspect of our work at the Bundy Ranch in Bunkerville, Nevada. Oath Keepers marches on, and our reports will continue to dispel the psy-op rumors about our work at the ranch. View this video to find many answers to questions currently flying about the Internet. Try to help people learn the truth by sending this to your lists. Thanks!

Why do they keep ignoring the part of the military oath to follow the orders of the president?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 2, 2014 - 04:42pm PT
I say the Feds should stand back when the "militias" start fighting each other. Wimmen an' children be *amned. let 'em fight to the last man standing and then arrest him.
Gunks Ray

Trad climber
Gunks
May 2, 2014 - 04:43pm PT
In other news BENGHAZI is finally OUTED, with the emails to PROVE what a lying sack of crap admin we have right now..

This Benghazi?

Not all Republicans are thrilled with Issa's renewed attention to the issue. Rep. Buck McKeon (R-Calif.), chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, said Thursday that his committee has interviewed more than a dozen witnesses closely connected to the Benghazi attack and concluded that, contrary to what Issa is alleging, there is no evidence that State Department officials delayed a decision to deploy resources to the scene.

Members of McKeon's committee also called it "puzzling" that Issa would find their work "incomplete" given that all of their briefings on the issue were open to members of Issa's committee, FOX News' Chad Pergram reported.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 2, 2014 - 05:09pm PT
Oath Keepers debriefing: starting at 10:20.

"Explain to them, our mission change of falling back to the hotel."

Fall back to the hotel.

Fall back to the hotel.

Fall back to the hotel.

Fall back to the hotel.

Fall back to the hotel.

Fall back to the hotel.

Fall back to the hotel.

Fall back to the hotel.

Fall back to the hotel.

Fall back to the hotel.

Fall back to the hotel.

Fall back to the hotel.

Fall back to the hotel.

Fall back to the hotel.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 2, 2014 - 05:14pm PT
Issa's a prime example of money in politics. His own.
He's very wealthy and thoroughly outspent his opponents to get elected in Republican Orange County. Before that, he was skunked in his campaign for Governor. He had no chance in the Bay area or Sacramento.
Issa would make an ideal McCarthy-ite. A conspiracy every under bush. An egotistical attention hog. Facts are entirely irrelevant.
Wants the spotlight and publicity. He's become well known nationally just by being a jac**off. I think he wants the spotlight of investigation. Makes him look like a Tea Bagger without having to be that stupid.
I believe he's shooting to run for Pres in '16. He certainly believes he's smarter than the other possible candidates. This might be true.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 2, 2014 - 05:19pm PT
And the republican led house continues to do nothing productive for the American people.

Benghazi, Benghazi, Benghazi and Benghazi..what a bunch of little dickheads.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 2, 2014 - 05:37pm PT
I sure wish someone would remind the Constitutional scholars and History professors of the Sovereign Citizens MOOvement in Bunkerstan that the South lost the Civil War. Get over it.
Got it?
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
May 2, 2014 - 05:50pm PT
And the republican led house continues to do nothing productive for the American people.

Benghazi, Benghazi, Benghazi and Benghazi..what a bunch of little dickheads.


Yup.

All they've got is this, the ACA website debacle, and a couple of equally insignificant other little things to go into the midterm elections.

No master plan to get the economy going full blast, just some ideological hurr durr. Won't offset their record of unfunded wars and stratospheric deficits.

They've really blown it. Can't see them taking the Senate. They need a Democrat style circular firing squad.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 2, 2014 - 07:08pm PT
'Ol Don's to the right of Bundy. What a kook.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 2, 2014 - 07:12pm PT
Hey survival, i happen to know there were Viet Nam era vets there at Bunkerville. You gonna bag on them now..Oh,, and they were vets, that fought in the shyt as it were.


Yeah Ron, I'll bag on them. There are a lot of vets that are as bat sh#t crazy as anyone else, sometimes more.

So, do I take offense to vets needlessly taking up arms against their own government? Yes.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
May 2, 2014 - 08:32pm PT
I didn't realize our veterans benefits package included "armed resistance against law enforcement officers," Ron. Republicans must have slipped that in to help replace one of their many cuts to actual veterans benefits.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 2, 2014 - 09:07pm PT
The idiocy in your Senator's letter is appalling. How someone so stupid could be a state Senator is truly disturbing.
Constitutional scholars will argue that the Constitution gives no such authority that would allow a federal agency the right to deprive Nevada's ability to control her own public lands
It is Federal public land. It HAS been argued many many times all the way to the Supreme Court several times. It is settled law.

Only legal ignoramuses like Bundy would argue otherwise. I'm sure there are lots of Republican politicians in Nevada who are smarter than this ass.
I suggest he resign and represent Bundy in court. Then he could be a real hero.

Utah's Governor has plenty of beef (ha ha) with Federal land management. He makes NO claim that it's not Federal land. I haven't heard law 'n order Orrin Hatch or Mike Lee (Utah senators) standing up for Bundy who after all is just over the border. Where's Jan Brewer of Arizona? She's about as whacko as any US Governor. Mum's the word.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 2, 2014 - 09:09pm PT
Ron wrote: My ass i havent earned that Dave.


Yes you took the oath.


Hilarious.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 2, 2014 - 09:17pm PT
Ron pretty Nekulturny to swing your purse at Survival.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
May 2, 2014 - 09:23pm PT
The idiocy in your Senator's letter is appalling. How someone so stupid could be a US Senator is truly disturbing.

It's almost as if he's pandering to a gullible group of voters looking to be talked to in a specific manner regardless of what reality is.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 2, 2014 - 09:28pm PT
Great bio Dunce Gustavson has for a state representative.
From his official bio:
Retired Professional Driver (fine with me)
Culver City High School; Santa Monica Junior College; Western Nevada College
Interests: Model railroading, ballroom dancing. (is that all?)
Affiliations: among others....NRA and Gun Owners of America. Prerequisites for election in many western states.
Former President, Highland Ranch Homeowners Association. (A subdivision. He's not even a real rancher.)
Personal and Professional Achievements: all Republican party hack positions.
I'm not saying he can't be a decent guy.
He is TOTALLY out of his league on the Constitution and likely can't tell sheep sh#t from bull sh#t.

http://www.leg.state.nv.us/Session/76th2011/legislators/Senators/Gustavson.pdf
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 2, 2014 - 09:31pm PT
HHDJ
It's almost as if he's pandering to a gullible group of voters looking to be talked to in a specific manner regardless of what reality is.
mind if I turn that inside out?
He's a gullible moron with no concept of reality pandering to similar voters.

My turn to be a dunce
WTF is REMF?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
May 2, 2014 - 09:38pm PT
Haha wait. This guy is a STATE Senator. HighTraverse you have it exactly right. My bad. I do enjoy how Ron has gone from "we are coming atcha with our guns!" to "my State Senator wrote a very strongly worded letter!"
John M

climber
May 2, 2014 - 09:41pm PT
REMF= rear echelon mo fo..
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 2, 2014 - 09:45pm PT
I figured it was something like that. I easily got the MoFo part.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 2, 2014 - 09:58pm PT
May 2, 2014 - 04:12pm PT
Hey survival, i happen to know there were Viet Nam era vets there at Bunkerville. You gonna bag on them now..Oh,, and they were vets, that fought in the shyt as it were.


Yeah Ron, I'll bag on them. There are a lot of vets that are as bat sh#t crazy as anyone else, sometimes more.

So, do I take offense to vets needlessly taking up arms against their own government? Yes
.


Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH

May 2, 2014 - 04:13pm PT
Then UP YOURS eh...REMF...


Can anyone who has been so worried about Ron's feelings because us LibTards are just so shucky darn mean to him honestly not understand why he gets so much grief. To me taking that slap at Survival is as putrid as Medussa's attack on Crimpergirl. Ron you have lost any and all respect or benefit of the doubt from me. GO PHUCK YOURSELF ASSHOLE!
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
May 2, 2014 - 10:06pm PT
Can't the gubmint create a reservation for crazy, racist, paramilitary crackers where they can live with no government support? Then they could walk around armed all the time and threaten each other when they didn't get their way.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
May 2, 2014 - 11:49pm PT
Can't the gubmint create a reservation for crazy, racist, paramilitary crackers where they can live with no government support? Then they could walk around armed all the time and threaten each other when they didn't get their way.

Post-of-the-month honors for that one.
perswig

climber
May 3, 2014 - 12:29pm PT
Then UP YOURS eh...REMF...

That's an exceedingly disappointing statement, Ron.
Hopefully by now you've reconsidered and offered Survival an apology, which would speak well of your ability to separate politics and personal and set an example for all of us.

Thanks in advance.
Dale
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 3, 2014 - 12:40pm PT
Ron, as a show of good form, I will offer an apology for making a comment about you being "up on the wall" at Bundyville. I simply found it funny that those militia guys were cracking already, and you have been their main defender.

I did not directly call you any name at all.

Here's what I found funny:
*The Oath Keepers bailed from the ranch because of a suspected drone strike, as though that isn't a massive stretch of imagination.
*The remaining militia guys called them traitors and said such things as "They're lucky they didn't get shot it the back."
*The Oath Keepers put a 50 minute manifesto on their site to explain their side.
*Illegal grazer Bundy has become a prophet hearing directly from God that he and his followers are supposed to disarm the BLM and Park Service.
*Bundy made demands of the government to be followed in "one hour".

Wearing a cowboy hat and being an old boy from NV does not make you more American or more right than anyone else.
Being a Vietnam era vet does not give you more rights to point guns at federal employees.
dirtbag

climber
May 3, 2014 - 04:09pm PT
^^^^^^That about sums it up.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
May 3, 2014 - 04:47pm PT
[
Can't the gubmint create a reservation for crazy, racist, paramilitary crackers where they can live with no government support? Then they could walk around armed all the time and threaten each other when they didn't get their way.

Post-of-the-month honors for that one.

Stahlbro and Ghost.. have my vote!!......++
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 3, 2014 - 06:04pm PT
Those fatboi crackers are going to get a hard civics lesson courtesy of the US Constitution.
johntp

Trad climber
socal
May 3, 2014 - 08:14pm PT
Another pissing contest with retirees acting like 3rd graders
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
May 3, 2014 - 08:18pm PT
This is some hilarious sh#t.

Ron "Sobchack" Anderson.

Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 3, 2014 - 09:10pm PT
Re FortMental's comment on a great idea:




Can't the gubmint create a reservation for crazy, racist, paramilitary crackers where they can live with no government support?


They did.

it's called Idaho.


Sorry folks, most all of our crazy, racist, paramilitary crackers still receive their govenment checks every month.

Also--------I do think some of usuns posting on the gubmint side of this too-long spew-fest, like guns too. It's part of my Idaho upbringing.

Ya-know.



HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
May 3, 2014 - 09:12pm PT
Sorry folks, most all of our crazy, racist, paramilitary crackers still receive their govenment checks every month.

You aren't a real anti-government conservative unless you are simultaneously dependent upon or benefitting from government assistance while you decry and belittle people on government assistance.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
May 3, 2014 - 11:31pm PT
Tim McVeigh recieved over 95K per year in govt farm subsidies yet was dumb enough to blow up the OK fedral building because he hated the govt......
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 4, 2014 - 02:09am PT
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hhe8uafs5IE
Jon Stewart describes FoX Noise's attack on the constitution.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 4, 2014 - 02:21am PT
S.Powers

Boulder climber
Joshua Tree, CA
May 4, 2014 - 03:41am PT
Ron, you should apologize to survival for the REMF comment, you're better than that.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 4, 2014 - 10:27am PT
No he probably isn't.
On a positive note the white wingers seemed to have abandoned tis thread. Wassa matta Cow got your tongues?
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
May 4, 2014 - 10:29am PT
Vital cross-post. Be aware!


http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2397321&msg=2401623#msg2401623
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 4, 2014 - 10:52am PT
I figured out how I can safely travel into Neevadastan to go climbing.
I'm going to rig the body of my car like a giant taser. Then when one of those Anti-American basturds lean on my car to question me 50,000 volts of DC will launch their anarchist asses into a new orbit.
Have a nice day.




Howz that for an "Electric" car?
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
May 4, 2014 - 01:16pm PT
^
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Sanskara

climber
May 4, 2014 - 01:44pm PT
It's so easy if you made it past the 8th grade. Good job Bruce you musts went to university.

You privileged uppity f*#k.

Or maybe you just read and poses the capacity to see things clearly and objectively as apposed to how you want to see them. Something so few poses..

Anyway this place would be lost to the indigent without you.

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
May 4, 2014 - 01:50pm PT
Thanks Nita! great soundtrack to read this thread by. It is also 4 minutes long, which is the maximum amount of time you should spend reading this thread before suffering permanent brain damage.

Ron - the only history that matters is the legal history. Cite case law and refer to statutes. Anyting else is BS.

We are a nation of laws, not of men and women
 John Adams -
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
May 4, 2014 - 02:44pm PT
I suppose you can claim that sasquatches exist as well?

Well yeah!!
Prove they don't. lol



BTW
The FEDS are OUT OF CONTROL and won't do what I want.
waa waa waa!!!






"You can't always get what you want.....
But if you try sometime, you just might find,
you get what you need."
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
May 4, 2014 - 03:16pm PT
Nyet Brucie boy. No matter how many derogatory lures you throw at me I will not be trolled into joining this misrepresented shetfest.

I recognized early on Bundy's imperfections as a poster boy for this government overreach pushback movement. However, as I noted from the beginning, the most remarkable aspect of this confrontation was that despite over a thousand armed belligerents on both sides not a single shot was fired. If Bundy was left to face the over zealous feds on his own I suspect an outcome more in line with Waco would have occurred.

Power to the people. Carry on brain dead dweebs.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 4, 2014 - 03:26pm PT
Ron: I don't really understand how you can read statements like Bruce posted and the one below, from the Reno Gazette article and believe it somehow favors your cause?

If the Bundy case exists under the historic umbrella of the Sagebrush Rebellion, UNR's Herzik still sees some clear distinctions. Most of the challenges against the government since the '70s — including the legal battles waged by people like Hage and Colvin — were conducted within the confines of the country's legal system, Herzik said.

"It was a protest movement, but it was still in the range of what you would call due process," Herzik said. "The Sagebrush Rebellion is more legitimate. There is a range here, and Bundy is at the far end of that range."

Bundy's dispute dates back to 1993, when the government designated federal land he used for grazing as protected habitat for the endangered desert tortoise, reducing his cattle allotment. Bundy quit paying grazing fees, with the BLM now contending he owes more than $1 million.

Federal judges, Herzik noted, have ruled in the government's favor in the Bundy dispute.

"Bundy had his day in court," Herzik said. "He just said I don't care. He's rejecting government authority far more broadly than what I would call the mainstream sagebrush rebels. That's where this starts to spin off to a more radical view of the Sagebrush Rebellion."

The standoff that attracted armed militia from across the country came with some worrying implications, Herzik said, adding that similar arguments rejecting all government authority have been made by groups like the Black Panthers. He described the BLM's decision to back down as a "tactical retreat" that was likely necessary to avoid what could easily have developed into a bloody gunfight.

It's also clear the situation is far from resolved, Herzik said.

"You don't get to pick and choose your laws," Herzik said. "Bundy is in a world of trouble because he doesn't have the million dollars to pay the (grazing) fees and he's now defied government authority with guns."
http://www.rgj.com/story/news/2014/05/04/bundy-standoff-roots-conflict-decades-old/8665725/
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 4, 2014 - 03:28pm PT
the most remarkable aspect of this confrontation was that despite over a thousand armed belligerents on both sides not a single shot was fired
So who was more sane?
The BLM who backed down or the Bundy "militias" who were itching for a firefight?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
May 4, 2014 - 03:33pm PT
Sheriff is alleging that Bundy literally incited a mob of armed people to liberate his cows from the BLM.

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25396688/i-team-police-say-bundy-ranch-protesters-not-off-the-hook

Clark County Sheriff Doug Gillespie has been negotiating behind the scenes with rancher Cliven Bundy for a couple of years. On the morning of the big showdown, he and Joe Lombardo drove to Bunkerville to let Bundy know that a deal had been reached with Bureau of Land Management to suspend the roundup of Bundy's cattle.

Bundy, who has grown accustomed to media attention over the past few months, said he would only talk to Gillespie on stage in front of his crowd. Once there, he ordered the sheriff to go out and disarm every fed he could find.

"And report back in an hour. Disarm everyone working at a federal park," Bundy told the sheriff.

"I mean, the hair was up on the back of my neck. There was the so-called militia surrounding the stage. There was a lot of firepower out there and it made me nervous. anything could happen," Lombardo said.

Gillspie and Lombardo say they offered to provide Bundy with legal counsel---free. He turned it down and later urged the crowd to go after his cattle.

"Mr. Bundy, in my personal opinion, incited the crowd," Lombardo said.

Some of them didn't need much to get riled. Their hostility toward government was on full display. A few equate the BLM with Nazis.

"That bunch, the SS squad or something to do with Hitler, shouldn't have guns there aimed at the people," one man at the showdown said.

They were equally hostile to journalists covering the story. Pistol-packing militia men have blocked 8 News NOW's access to public roads. Some poured lighter fluid around our news vehicle while others got physical.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 4, 2014 - 03:38pm PT
Over 1000? Is that true? It looked like a medium sized barbecue. Not exactly Occupy BundyLand.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 4, 2014 - 03:48pm PT
Ron? Did you experience any of the anti-Forest Service hostility discussed in this Forest Service report?

I know people in Idaho that don't like the Forest Service, but it's nothing like what they were experiencing in NE Nevada. The report does mention the Elko Newspaper helped whip up the anti-Forest Service feelings.

Fact Finding Report
Work Environment and Community Relations
Humboldt-Toiyabe National Forest
February 4, 2000
http://www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2003_n_before/nevada_report.htm


Work Environment
The team determined that, except for one significant exception, most of the Humboldt-Toiyabe is similar to other national forests in the quality of community relationships and generally positive work environment.

During our interviews with employees and members of the public we were told of positive working relationships and successful partnerships that exist with the Forest Service in many areas of Nevada.

The significant exception is in northeast Nevada where most employees view the work environment as unusual and antagonistic.

Employees there described numerous situations over the past three years where Forest Service employees and their families have been subject to various forms and degrees of intimidation, harassment, and verbal abuse.
Many current northeast Nevada employees and former employees reported being treated disrespectfully and being exposed to highly embarrassing situations by community members.

Employees spoke of incidents where, while doing field work, they encountered people whose actions or language they considered threatening causing them to be afraid for their well-being.

In several instances, Forest Service employees either were refused service by employees of local businesses or were subjected to foul language by other business patrons. To their credit, business owners dealt with these situations when they were reported; however, these experiences were very troubling to employees.

We heard from two Forest Service spouses who reported being ostracized from community groups and verbally abused and ridiculed in public. One spouse told us that her child's teacher made disparaging comments during class about Forest Service employees. The issue with the teacher was raised to school authorities and is being dealt with. In two instances, church members were said to have left congregations after Forest Service employees joined.

Antagonistic treatment appeared to be due to specific actions the Forest Service was taking or to being identified as a Forest Service employee or family member.

Of the approximately 35 employees we met with in Elko, the majority said that working and living in this setting affected their sense of wellbeing. Lack of community support in Elko, Nevada, has caused some employees in that area to minimize professional and social interactions. However, others reported that they considered dealing with this a normal and tolerable aspect of their jobs.

Very few employees wear their Forest Service uniforms. Many preferred to drive white and non-greenfleet vehicles while performing their duties. Employees stated that these actions made them less conspicuous, and therefore, less exposed to animosity.

We heard from both employees and community members that believe in the past the Elko Daily Free Press fueled anti-federal attitudes in Elko and around northeast Nevada, including articles directed at individual employees.

The Elko Daily Free Press is the only daily newspaper published in northeast Nevada. A review of editorials on the Elko Daily Free Press web page indicates that the paper is strongly in favor of county, local and private rights and opposed to a federal presence in Nevada. The paper frequently featured headlines critical of the Forest Service.

Employees believed they had made good faith efforts to provide information of interest about the Forest Service to the community through the paper. They were frustrated that when articles on Forest Service activities did appear announcing Forest Service activities or programs they were frequently disputed in editorials and disparaged in opinion pieces by the publisher. Many employees expressed the opinion that the editorial content of the Elko Daily Free Press has devalued the role of the Forest Service in northeast Nevada and affects the working atmosphere.

During its visit to Nevada the team learned that the Elko Daily Free Press had been sold and a new editor appointed.

We heard of egregious incidents that occurred prior to 1996, including the bombing of the Carson City District Ranger's office and home. Some of these situations were resolved; others remain unresolved. Many employees have vivid memories of these events and continue to be troubled by them. Some incidents were never reported because the employee was not aware of the reporting process.

Many external contacts were troubled and angered by accusations raised by Flora in her letter and think the claims are unfounded or too all-inclusive.

The team found:
• Working relationships were generally good in much of Nevada. Where problems were found, Forest Service employees, elected officials and local publics expressed a strong desire to work together to improve relationships.
• An antagonistic work environment currently exists in northeast Nevada which has had an impact on Forest Service effectiveness. When considered cumulatively, the experiences employees described were beyond what is typical in work environments for Forest Service employees in other places. The work environment is difficult but is not considered dangerous.
This finding of an antagonistic environment in northeast Nevada is consistent with the most recent Continuous Improvement Process (CIP) Survey. A comparison between the 1997 and 1999 CIP survey indicates that while the results for the Humboldt-Toiyabe as a whole improved, results for the northeast Nevada Eco-unit declined. The CIP is designed to enable employees to provide input and give feedback about processes that affect



I. HAVE YOU PERSONALLY OR HAVE MEMBERS OF YOUR FAMILY EXPERIENCED AN INCIDENT WHERE YOU FELT UNCOMFORTABLE, THREATENED, INTIMIDATED OR HARASSED? PLEASE DESCRIBE WHAT YOU EXPERIENCED. WHAT DID YOU DO AT THE TIME FO THE INCIDENT. HOW DID YOU REACT?

Received pointed questions, unfounded accusations but nothing illegal — but what sort of support system do employees have to deal with verbal lashings?

"When I travel in a Forest Service vehicle in Central and northeast Nevada I often feel like a "sitting duck", a target. Staying overnight in Austin and Tonopah I usually say that I’m with USDA, not the USFS for fear of a hostile response." We were told when visiting Pahrump that there were certain businesses that refuse to serve the USFS. "It is an awful feeling to think that you need to travel in disguise. When I worked in California on the Eldorado and Tahoe National Forests, I never felt this way —I was very proud of what I did and who I worked for."

"Many positive things are happening on the forest, what a shame that this isn’t the story getting in the news. Somehow we need to redirect the focus to the positive side so that the publics get a true picture of what the USFS is all about. If it takes a staff of five PAOs to get the positive word out then we need to do this.

It is important that employees get serious training on how to operate in this environment, not just advice that we need to positively interact with the publics as if this were nothing out of the ordinary."
A Forest Service spouse who walked her son to the bus stop every day for six years reported being sworn, cussed and screamed at by two women, who also walked their children to the bus stop, whenever an article appeared in the paper about Forest Service activities.

A spouse reported attending a reception with her husband honoring the 75 th anniversary of the Chamber of Commerce and having a local resident approach her to talk. When the resident found out that her husband worked for the Forest Service, the resident stood up and announced to everyone in a loud voice "Attention everyone, I want you to know that Jane Doe’s husband works for the Forest Service and that we don’t have a problem with goshawk because my husband and I ate the last one last night." Everyone at the reception laughed and the employees left the reception feeling ridiculed.

An employee took his wife to a casino for an anniversary dinner. As they sat waiting for dinner, four people came over and sat down at their table and loudly berated him about Forest Service activities.

A child whose father works for the Forest Service reported that his middle school teacher makes derogatory comments about the Forest Service during class. He has referred to Forest Service employees as stupid. The teacher has published vicious opinion articles about the Forest Service in the local paper and told his class that he was going to participate in the work party that was going to open up the South Canyon road. He told his students that they would have to bail him out of jail on Monday morning. This was raised to the attention of school officials who have addressed the incident.

A Forest Service employee took his wife to lunch at a local truck stop and café. He was in uniform. Upon entering the restaurant they were greeted with the sound of one of the patrons loudly saying "Get those F------ employees out of here." They sat down only to leave 30 minutes later when no one waited on them.

An employee went into a service station to fill his vehicle with fuel. When he went in to pay, the cashier told him that Forest Service employees were not welcome at the gas station and they should go elsewhere. The employee asked to speak with the manager to find out if that was indeed the case. The manager told the employee that Forest Service business was welcome.

A spouse reported being verbally attacked in her home by a woman that she had met at her church and invited to her house. The woman berated her and the Forest Service.

A spouse reported that she inquired about joining a reading group that was forming and was told by the organizer when the next meeting was scheduled. She was later told that she could not join the reading group because several women in the group did not want a Forest Service employee’s wife in the club. The organizer said "It would make things uncomfortable, I’m sure you understand."

Employees who drive green rigs have reported being subjected to obscene gestures.

Employees have reported that their families have been subjected to derogatory comments in local grocery stores. A spouse said that people avoided her in the grocery store and would not respond if she greeted them.

An employee reported driving though Jarbidge pulling a dozer to reclaim a small mine. On the way through town, residents were lining the street with cameras and video cameras and one individual violently yelled at him "You Forest Service people have ----- up this whole canyon.

An employee rented a trailer from a local rental company. The taillights on the trailer went out while he was returning the trailer to the company. The police refused to allow him to pull the vehicle 400 feet across the street to return the trailer to the rental company. They insisted that he walk back to the Forest Service office and get someone to follow him with a Forest Service vehicle as he drove 400 feet across the street to the rental company.

An employee inspecting a mining operation reported that a dozer operator at the site tried to run her down with the dozer.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 4, 2014 - 04:10pm PT
It is really a surprise that Bundy is just another crazy ass dipshit and needs to put in jail now along with all the as#@&%es who pointed guns at federal and local LEO.


Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 4, 2014 - 06:18pm PT
Bundy, who has grown accustomed to media attention over the past few months, said he would only talk to Gillespie on stage in front of his crowd. Once there, he ordered the sheriff to go out and disarm every fed he could find.

Drama Queen, will talk, only if on a stage, in front of his crowd

coward
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 4, 2014 - 06:33pm PT
Fritz, perhaps you failed to notice that i stated that was only one small part of the coverage in the gazette journal...Or you simply ignored that. Dont worry it will spill into Idaho soon..

and now i go to sell guns guns guns,, and ammo,ammo and more ammo...

Gee you seem so filled with GLEE about contributing to the destabilization of civil order.
About as useful as teats on a boar hog. Phucking Americunt.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 4, 2014 - 07:50pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 4, 2014 - 10:24pm PT
So you are a switch hitter.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
May 4, 2014 - 10:38pm PT
I've dealt with journalists now and then. It seems like they never get things exactly right. That is because they studied journalism instead of say, geology.

How about: "I've dealt with geologists now and then. It seems like they never get things exactly right."

To say that journalists get things wrong is about as useful as saying the sun comes up in the morning. Of course they get things wrong. Just as do geologists. Or dentists. Or carpenters.

If geologists "got things exactly right" we'd know where every mineral and oil deposit was, right down to the millimeter. And, of course, no geologist has ever lied, shaded the truth, or been influenced by corporate dollars.

Bruce is exactly right on this one. Journalists are far from perfect, but they're all we've got. Some are very good at what they do. Some, while they try to be good, just aren't very competent. And some have sold their souls for gold. As a consumer of news, it is up to you to do your best to separate the truth from the half-truth from the lies from the garbage.

The truth is out there. But often it takes some work to find it.


Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 4, 2014 - 11:02pm PT
Ron! Thanks for a reply to my post of the Nevada Forest Service audit of employee harassment, that I can consider honest & true!

May 4, 2014 - 07:05pm PT
Fritz, i was hung in effigy at the centerville bar with a little voo-doo doll. I was called "pig of the woods" by many a local from SLT to Gardnerville Carson and Sierra county. I was threatened with chain saws guns and bodily assault. I also HATED the dist ranger whos office and mail box were blown up...He was an as#@&%e supreme. Yah it was all peace love and doves in the Carson dist LMAO!.


HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
May 5, 2014 - 12:36am PT
Ron posted
Yah BK, just me, senators,legislaotrs, congressmen and a Governor.

Sorry, Ron, I'm confused. You tell me I can't trust the government but then you insist that I should trust your story because government.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 5, 2014 - 07:44am PT
These "Sovereign Citizens" are NOT patriots they are parasites spreading infection in the body politic. What will happen when Ol' Cliven realizes that the state of Nevada and his pet sherrif do not agree with him and don't support him? Will he only have the voices in his head and his mob of knuckle draggers to talk with?


Education is the best immunization.
dirtbag

climber
May 5, 2014 - 09:36am PT
More than a formal education, I think these yahoos need basic lessons in civics and a respect for the rule of law.

Even so, a lot of these folks are just plain nuts. Good luck reaching them.
dirtbag

climber
May 5, 2014 - 09:59am PT
Along with Valium and fluoridated water...
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 5, 2014 - 10:02am PT
I thought these people were supposed to be against "entitlements"?

Horsford, who attended a public event in nearby Mesquite earlier Saturday, said he was approached by residents there wanting to know about his plans to get militia members out of the area.

He said a fifth-grade girl told him that Bundy has a “sense of entitlement” and should pay grazing fees like other ranchers who use public land in the West. A man told him that Bundy is a “welfare rancher” living off taxpayer subsidies, Horsford said.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 5, 2014 - 10:10am PT
At least Locker doesn't owe 'em a million bucks.
Sanskara

climber
May 5, 2014 - 10:15am PT
Oh what's the matter your cause getting foreshadowed by your fanatasizm. You poor misunderstood gun toting wacked out militia supporting lunatic fringe crazy bastards.

I feel so bad for you all.

NOT!
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
May 5, 2014 - 10:49am PT
The current FED admin has lied through their teeth so much they make the Nixon admin look like schoolgirls.


Says you with nothing more then accusations.
Then you proclaim you're right on other unproven statements you've made.

Your on course to become a sorry headline in some newspaper.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 5, 2014 - 10:54am PT

LAS VEGAS (AP) — A Nevada congressman is calling on elected officials in the state to rid a town in his district of militia members who have rallied around rancher Cliven Bundy in his battle with federal land managers.

Rep. Steven Horsford, in an address to the Clark County Democratic Convention in Las Vegas on Saturday, said he's making the request after hearing more complaints from constituents about the presence of Bundy supporters near Bunkerville, 75 miles northeast of Las Vegas.

In encampments around the Bundy ranch, self-described militia members from around the country continue to camp with handguns on their hips and heavier weaponry within reach in a show of support for Bundy.

Bundy, a states' rights advocate who refuses to acknowledge the authority of the federal government, owes more than $1 million in fees and penalties for letting his cattle use government land over the past 20 years. Last month, the Bureau of Land Management stopped trying to round up his cattle after a showdown with hundreds of Bundy supporters, some of them armed.

Horsford, who attended a public event in nearby Mesquite earlier Saturday, said he was approached by residents there wanting to know about his plans to get militia members out of the area.

He said a fifth-grade girl told him that Bundy has a "sense of entitlement" and should pay grazing fees like other ranchers who use public land in the West. A man told him that Bundy is a "welfare rancher" living off taxpayer subsidies, Horsford said.

"And that is why I am calling on (Gov.) Brian Sandoval, Sen. Dean Heller, the (Clark County) sheriff (Doug Gillespie) and any other elected official in Nevada to do their part to get rid of these armed separatists," Horsford said to loud cheers from about 200 delegates.

Sandoval and Heller are Republicans, while Gillespie holds a nonpartisan position.

Sandoval spokesman Mac Bybee referred The Associated Press on Sunday to an interview on the "Nevada Newsmakers" television show taped Friday in which the governor acknowledged people have a right to feel safe in their homes.

Asked if Gillespie plans to move militia groups from the Bunkerville area, Sandoval replied, "No, and even if he had said that, I wouldn't share that with you, because certainly that's a conversation between the two of us."

"I just know that he is monitoring the situation and he's very aware of what's going on out there," the governor added, according to KRNV-TV.

Heller, who has labeled Bundy's supporters as "patriots," and Gillespie did not immediately respond to requests for comment.

Horsford also has called for federal authorities and Gillespie to investigate the gun-toting force that Horsford said was frightening for residents.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/04/steven-horsford-cliven-bundy_n_5265050.html
Sanskara

climber
May 5, 2014 - 11:20am PT
Hahahahhahahhahahnan

And the beat rolls on and on and on....

I think we all should be required to wear our rock climbing helmets at all times as we are all clearly brain injured. Some of us much more than others but all injured non the less.
WBraun

climber
May 5, 2014 - 12:27pm PT
I just finished reading the entire transcript conversations between Peter Santilli (PS) and Daniel Love (BLM).

It's very interesting.

I recommend anyone emotionally invested in this to read it.

http://guerillamedianetwork.com/released-more-secret-audio-of-blm-special-agent-in-charge-daniel-p-love-transcript/

6.05 PS – Can I speak to you privately? Without everybody? There was one guy that got a little bit out of hand

6.16 DL – which guy?

6.18 PS - He took down Margaret – 56 years old

6.20 DL – the one that jumped and almost got hit by a vehicle? The one that hooks with his arm to pull her out of the way of a convoy? He probably saved her life

6.32 PS – picture this – the purpose of our obstruction was out of concern for the cattle

6.37 DL – again I have been very very clear don’t obstruct our

6.42 PS – consider a mistake I made – Margaret’s intentions were to speak with somebody

6.46 DL – Margaret came dangerously close to almost being run over by a truck – and you know that officer does not push her in the front – you’ve seen the video – he hooks her by the waist with one arm and pulls her behind him. She obviously loses her balance and goes down. But he is not taking her by the shirt and ramming her into the ground. You have the evidence – look at it

7.19 PS – so you guys already investigated

7.21 DL – I’m all over it – we have our own very clear video – very clear officer’s statement

7.32 PS – that’s what I wanted to hear
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 5, 2014 - 12:27pm PT
Oooooo, damn, that was a good one jonnyrig.

Werner's is also good. Something besides all the mouth foaming.


Edit: Locker, no it's not an everybody against Ron thread. It's a discussion about the standoff between Cliven and the government. It just so happens that Ron is one of the only people shouting for Cliven's team, and then people misdirect their frustration at each other, rather than the issue.
John M

climber
May 5, 2014 - 12:33pm PT
Good post Werner.. funny how quick people are to jump to judgments when they are pissed off.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
May 5, 2014 - 12:36pm PT
If people were striking against unfair labor practices, do you think the Federal Government would forcibly clear a picket line the same way?
John M

climber
May 5, 2014 - 12:38pm PT
Not sure what you are trying to say Chaz, because the government has forcibly cleared picket lines that were blocking traffic. Many many times.

edit

these "Discussions" here all too often go round and round and round again, getting NO WHERE…

some people clearly do have their minds made up.. but Werners post above brings a new light on part of the angst..
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
May 5, 2014 - 12:45pm PT
Yeah Survival, for once Glenn Beck sounds like the voice of reason.

He makes Wayne Brady sound like Bryant Gumbel.



John M

climber
May 5, 2014 - 01:08pm PT
since all beef is apparently a welfare case unless it was raised in a giant feed lot.

nope.. Bundy's beef is welfare beef because he is grazing it for free on federal land, which means he is getting free federal aid, i.e. welfare. . Those who pay the grazing fees are paying their way, thus they aren't on welfare/free federal stuff.

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 5, 2014 - 01:36pm PT
I recall post-911 our congresspeople laid the f*#k down and raised their asses to George Bush. They were either for it, or lacked the moral courage to vote their conscience. Either way, they allowed the blood to flow and bear equal responsibility as the war hawks.

Spot on.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 5, 2014 - 01:50pm PT
What is the legal ownership/proprietorship of this land again?

Federal lands are lands in the United States for which ownership is claimed by the U.S. federal government, pursuant to Article Four, section 3, clause 2 of the United States Constitution.[1] As of March 2012, out of the 2.27 billion acres in the country, about 28% of the total was owned by the Federal government according to the Interior Department.[2] The United States Supreme Court has upheld the broad powers of the federal government to deal with federal lands, for example having unanimously held in Kleppe v. New Mexico[3] that "the complete power that Congress has over federal lands under this clause necessarily includes the power to regulate and protect wildlife living there, state law notwithstanding".[1]



Federal land ownership began when the original 13 states ceded their “western”lands (between the Appalachian Mountains and the Mississippi River) to the central government between 1781 and 1802. Substan
tial land acquisition in North America via treaties and purchases began with the Louisiana Purchase in 1803 and culminated with the purchase of Alaska in 1867. In total, the federal government acquired 1.8 billion acres in North America.
The U.S. Constitution addresses the relationship of the federal government to lands. Article IV, § 3, Clause 2 — the Property Clause — gives Congress authority over federal property generally, and the Supreme Court has described Congress’s power to legislate under this Clause as “without limitation.” The equal footing doctrine (based on language within Article
IV, § 3, Clause 1), and found in state enabling acts, provides new states with equality to the original states in terms of constitutional rights, but has not been used successfully to force the divestment of federal lands. The policy question of whether to acquire more, or to dispose of any
or all, federal lands is left to Congress to decide.
The initial federal policy generally was to transfer ownership of many federal lands to private and state ownership. Congress enacted many laws granting lands and authorizing or directing sales or transfers, ultimately
disposing of 1.275 billion acres. However, from the earliest times, Congress also provided for reserving lands for federal purposes, and over time has reserved or withdrawn areas for such entities as national parks, national forests, and wildlife refuges.
The Taylor Grazing Act of 1934 was enacted to remedy the deterioration of the range on the remaining public lands. This was the first direct authority for federal management of these lands, and implicitly began the shift toward ending disposals and retaining lands in federal ownership. In 1976, Congress formally declared that national policy was generally to retain the remaining lands in federal ownership inthe Federal Land Policy
and Management Act.
The “Sagebrush Rebellion” was a collection of unsuccessful state and local
efforts, beginning in 1978, to assert title to federal lands or force their divestiture. It also included efforts by the Reagan Administration and in Congress to divest ofmany federal lands, which
also proved unsuccessful
John M

climber
May 5, 2014 - 01:51pm PT
What is the legal ownership/proprietorship of this land again? When you drive down the road, do you do so on "welfare roads"? Just curious…

the land belongs to the feds..

its not a welfare road because I pay taxes on things like gasoline, and I pay fees, like license fees, which gives me rights to use it.

Bundy isn't paying his fees, so he loses his rights to use that land. If he uses it without paying, then he is in essence getting welfare/support from the Feds..

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 5, 2014 - 02:09pm PT
Didya' know that, on average, each rural folk has more representation in the federal government than each city folk does?

yes, and specially true in the US Senate where both Wyoming and California each have two
Senators!

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 5, 2014 - 02:20pm PT
Changing the entire structure of representation won't be easy.

What do you suggest?
John M

climber
May 5, 2014 - 02:22pm PT

"Down with them rural folk! Thuyre Diffrent!"

I grew up rural. Most of my family is rural. I have nothing against rural folks. In fact I admire many things about them.


John M

climber
May 5, 2014 - 02:27pm PT
jammer, grazing fees were in part asked for by the cattlemen, who saw the need for some sort of structure and way to keep lands from being overgrazed. Overgrazing hurt all the cattlemen. Plus without some form of structure, the cattlemen spent too much effort in defending the lands that they were grazing.

And that has been discussed on this thread.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
May 5, 2014 - 02:51pm PT
Ron ranted
and they sure as hell LIED about protecting some desert tortoise...

Well, at least Obama has managed to make conservatives care about endangered species.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
May 5, 2014 - 03:03pm PT
The whole thing is deep in issues that are not really talked about.

uhhh, it was discussed at length in a 20 year court battle. The net result was a couple of court orders. Res Judicata, end of story.

Bundy is not the first litigant who was unhappy with the outcome of his case. He wants another bite at the apple, why? Because he is special?

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 5, 2014 - 04:07pm PT
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/05/04/obama-boehner-orange-new-black/



He's no Jon Stewart but Barack Obama has great delivery and timing.
"Orange is the new black". Hahahahahahaha...ahhhhh.
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
May 5, 2014 - 04:13pm PT
where's Chief Chirpa?
I miss him
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 5, 2014 - 04:14pm PT
Anita do you mean Chump Change Chuff?
You missed him eh? Have you considered a scope?
Ask Rong I'm sure he knows which model has the best optics for the job.
Sanskara

climber
May 5, 2014 - 05:34pm PT
Anitta,

STFU you're gonna ruin it lol ;)

You must be really really bored to want him back!
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
May 5, 2014 - 05:46pm PT
Why do you always misspell my name?
:(

Chief is fun. Isn't one of his nicknames Chuckles?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
May 5, 2014 - 05:50pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Here's the Obama routine. The other video was taken down.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 5, 2014 - 06:20pm PT
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 5, 2014 - 06:22pm PT
now THAT's funny
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 5, 2014 - 07:41pm PT
Crankster! Great Cartoon!! Thanks!
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 5, 2014 - 10:24pm PT
Locker! Re your BS assertion:

BREAKING NEWS:


Mission accomplished!!!...

No one convinced anyone of anything...

I think a fair number of folks were convinced that this thread is a fuking waste of time and energy!
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 5, 2014 - 10:58pm PT
Boo hoo, members of extremists militia groups are given a hard time here.
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
May 5, 2014 - 11:29pm PT
Come back the Chief
I miss you.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
May 6, 2014 - 03:54pm PT
I think the horse was dead by the 100th post or so.... Keep at it!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 6, 2014 - 03:59pm PT
What's happening up in Bundy imaginary drone ghost town anyway?
Haven't heard anything new lately.

Is he paying all those freedom fighters to take time out from the rest of their ninja lives to hang out on his spread forever or what?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 6, 2014 - 04:42pm PT
Plenty of them still there as of last Thursday. Mrs Blundy said occasionally "hundreds" and you can take that with a grain of very fine Blundy ranch sand. Got to wonder about the sanitation. Oh, wait. They are a well regulated militia and must have arranged for porta potties by now. Especially for those who are now irregular.

The law abiding locals up the road in Mesquite have about had enough of them.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 6, 2014 - 05:49pm PT
I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Wingnut. I recall driving past a gun & ammo store attached to a Chick-fil-A in North Las Vegas and in front of that gun shop the door was usually open and the older people and the kids — and there is always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch — they didn't have nothing to do. They didn't have nothing for their kids to do. They didn't have nothing for their young girls to do.
And because they were basically on government disability & social security, so now what do they do? They pollute their young children with their beliefs, they put their young men in militia's, because they never learned how to pick out a cotton-picking, lunatic conspiracy story. And I've often wondered, are they better off as Wingnuts, packing heat and aiming at federal employees and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn't get no more freedom. They got less freedom.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 6, 2014 - 06:02pm PT
More wolves, fewer ranchers!
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
May 6, 2014 - 09:23pm PT
What kind of gun would you recommend for me?
I want something effective yet stylish to replace my shank. It's getting rusty

Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 6, 2014 - 10:02pm PT
Ron? I'm a little dated on my revolver collection, but 20-30 years ago Ruger made schist pistols and S & W was "the brand!"

Photo is of my 6" barrel S & W 22 that is the every-day desert pistol I've used since 1967. First two cartridges are "Snake-shot" and the next 4 are hollow-points. When I shot it more often, I could kill jack-rabbits up to 100 yards away.

The other S & W, 4" barrel, Stainless steel 357 Magnum, is only 28 years old. It is for the trips in bear country & is also home defence pistol although I prefer keeping the shotguns ready.

So? Does your store have a S & W dealership, or have they priced themselves out of your market?




donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 6, 2014 - 10:43pm PT
Fritz, Ron... pistols are like toys and toys, like bikes, are for children. Guess i got spoiled with the weapons we played with in SF.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 6, 2014 - 10:47pm PT
Donini: Jest trying to have some gun bonding with our wayward friend Ron.

Something in our cultureless Western culture that we can both relate to.

Like chainsaws.


Ron thought mine was a little-small.------although I own the macho-redneck right-brand saw.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 6, 2014 - 10:51pm PT
Yeah, that chainsaw isn't too robust....probably just fine for the ranchette though.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
May 6, 2014 - 11:04pm PT
The women here on the Eastside have kick-start vibrators....rj
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 6, 2014 - 11:11pm PT
Ron? BMG's? You got a breakthrough gun------- dooede?

Bio-Magnetic guns or, as they are more commonly referred to as, BMGs, are one of the Votan weapon types found in the Defiance game. This is a very science-fiction, futuristic weapon.

http://gamocialgaming.com/guides/defiance-weapon-analysis-bio-magnetic-guns-bmgs/
WBraun

climber
May 6, 2014 - 11:27pm PT
Jim Donini always needs gun, sometimes even a concealed weapon.

The gun and concealed weapon of choice for Jim is always ...

"The Rope Gun"
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
May 6, 2014 - 11:31pm PT
9mm...?
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
May 6, 2014 - 11:41pm PT
LOTS of women getting into the 9s..

Jeez, Ron, get with the 21st century. Women got into and through the 9s back fifty years ago. Now they're sending 13s and 14s on par with the men.

Oh, sorry, temporarily thought this was a climbing forum...
WBraun

climber
May 6, 2014 - 11:43pm PT
By the way ...

Bundy says years ago the court told him to pay the fees.

They never came to collect the fees.

For years no one came to collect.

No one told him anymore to get off the land either.

Thus the statue of limitations ran out for the collection.

Thus he owns the land now?

Suddenly in 2014 they came, and he says WTF man!!!

Is this how it goes ?????
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 6, 2014 - 11:50pm PT
Thus he owns the land now?

Nope. There is no adverse possession of public land, Werner. When the ignorant sonofabitch shows up at your place with his cows, though, you'd better grab one of Ron's Rugers and start blasting.
WBraun

climber
May 7, 2014 - 12:30am PT
Why am I supposed to kill this man?

I have no quarrel with this man.

I don't know him at all.

He's BLM and the courts problem ......
WBraun

climber
May 7, 2014 - 01:26am PT
Keep running your stupid mouth coward.

You deserve everything coming your way for all your dumbsh!t mouth you've run.

Karma is your bitch aszhole!

When you are right I have zero respect for you.

When you are wrong I have zero respect for you.

You are the coward .....
WBraun

climber
May 7, 2014 - 01:57am PT
You still keep proving you are the coward.

Keep it up coward.

Nothing works for a stupid coward like you ......
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 7, 2014 - 07:50am PT
I sure want to thank all you "shet Fecking" firearm fetishist and munition masturbators for your efforts to turn America into a back water 3rd rate 3rd world hell hole like Somalia. I can only guess that the burden of "American Exceptionalism" was just to much for you all.
So now we can ditch the hackneyed image of Uncle Sam for the more appropriate poster child of Ted Nuggent. Way to go AmeriKKKlan.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mVuspKSjfgA
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
May 7, 2014 - 08:15am PT
Ron..you calling me a girl..?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 7, 2014 - 08:52am PT
He has rights Werner, due to water improvements he made on the land

While it's possible he has some water rights, it would not be because he made improvements. He can legally steal land and interest in land from you, Ron, but not from the government.

Curtis Brown in Evidence and Procedures for Boundary Location, 2nd edition pg. 82, writes: "In general, although there are exceptions, unwritten conveyances (the gaining of rights in land without writings) cannot operate against the federal, state, or local governments. In most states, irrespective of how long a person occupies a road, occupancy gives no rights against the public."

IIRC, the Hage case reiterates this.
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
May 7, 2014 - 09:21am PT
Does it come in pink?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 7, 2014 - 09:28am PT
Well I recognized the thread drift you prompted Locker and thought Ron should thank you for the chubby you gave him.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 7, 2014 - 09:36am PT
"Happiness is a warm gun"
"Bang bang shoot shoot"


"Pink Camo"
MOOOOOOOOOOOO.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 7, 2014 - 09:54am PT












philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 7, 2014 - 10:00am PT
http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25301551/bundys-ancestral-rights-come-under-scrutiny




LAS VEGAS -- Federal authorities remain silent about their next plans to confront Cliven Bundy at his Bunkerville ranch.

Both sides are fighting over history, with federal courts denying Bundy's claims of "ancestral rights" on the Virgin River valley. The I-Team dug into century-old records to examine Bundy's claims.

At the Bunkerville camp next to Cliven Bundy's ranch, there are constant reminders of history.

Revolutionary War flags, ancient Greek mottos and native American symbols, all mixing together to create a growing identity and narrative for protestors.

This land is unusually fertile and green for southern Nevada. Cliven Bundy grows melons there. They are said to be the best in the state.

His cattle, until recently, roamed freely on land managed by the federal Bureau of Land Management. Before the roundup that sparked protests, confrontations and gunmen taking a bridge, Bundy explained his "ancestral rights" to the I-Team.

"I've lived my lifetime here. My forefathers have been up and down the Virgin Valley here ever since 1877. All these rights that I claim, have been created through pre-emptive rights and beneficial use of the forage and the water and the access and range improvements," Bundy said.

Clark County property records show Cliven Bundy's parents bought the 160 acre ranch in 1948 from Raoul and Ruth Leavitt.

Water rights were transferred too, but only to the ranch, not the federally managed land surrounding it. Court records show Bundy family cattle didn't start grazing on that land until 1954.

The Bureau of Land Management was created 1946, the same year Cliven was born.

"My rights are before the BLM even existed, but my rights are created by beneficial use. Beneficial use means we created the forage and the water from the time the very first pioneers come here," Bundy said.

Early census records show Cliven's maternal grandmother, Christena Jensen, was born in Nevada in 1901 (other records show she was born in 1891 as Abigail Christina Abbott).

One word spreading through Bundy supporters and his armed guards is that what the federal government is doing to Bundy is exactly what they did to native Americans.

"They are literally treating western United States citizens, ranchers, rural folks like this- are the modern day Indians. We're being driven off of our lands. We're being forced into reservations known as cities," Justin Giles, an Oathkeeper from Alaska, said.

The local Paiute Indians were forced into reservations by federal troops in 1875. Two years prior, the tribe was promised the same land Cliven Bundy now grows his melons ,and until recently, grazed his cattle.

The I-Team's research team has come up with an in-depth look at the genealogy and property records that form the basis of Cliven Bundy's claim of ancestral rights on the ranch land.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 7, 2014 - 10:02am PT
Ron's back. We are doomed.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 7, 2014 - 10:35am PT
Hey Let's all go to the NRA website and discuss Wings of Steel.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 7, 2014 - 10:41am PT
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 7, 2014 - 10:56am PT
jonnyrig, someone needs to fight those closures. When you buy a parcel of land, you buy the easements that go with it.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 7, 2014 - 11:46am PT
Water improvements on BLM land overlooking Bundy ranch. Bunkerville or Mesquite in distance.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
May 7, 2014 - 11:51am PT
There are no ancestor rights to federal land, there is no title through adverse possession, no implied easements, and no right to anything based on "improvements."
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 7, 2014 - 11:54am PT
Fact check Ron....Fogarty did not write that song. Why are you lying to us?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 7, 2014 - 11:55am PT
That's not an "Improvement" that's a rusting canker sore and a blight.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 7, 2014 - 11:58am PT
The dude was born in 46.....looks much older. Evidently diminished brain activity causes other body parts to deteriorate.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 7, 2014 - 12:10pm PT
Bundy is a squatter.

Pay yer gawldang ol' fees or be gone varmint!

Better yet, pay yer gawldang ol' fees and git yer gawldang critters off the land anyway!

Take yer band of domestic AmeriQueda with ya!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 7, 2014 - 12:26pm PT
Dingus YOU TOO chose the FED laws youll obey,, puff puff...."Before you accuse me,, take a look at yurself,,BEFORE YA ACCUSE ME,, take a look at yourself",, as J Fogerty wrote

This is too phucking priceless. To see no difference between pot and guns.
How many people in a year die from assault bongs or drive by spliffings?
To numb and dumb to see a real issue when it stares you in the face.
Go aim your surrogate penises at Monsanto. Or like the dessert tortoise do you also hate bees??? Is the only round up you approve of the poison you spray on your dandelions?
We could LIVE without guns, BEES not so much.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 7, 2014 - 12:28pm PT
Drive by spliffings, lol.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 7, 2014 - 12:36pm PT
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 7, 2014 - 12:54pm PT
How do you know their guns are illegal? Couldn't they just as easily have legal guns?
How do we know all your guns (and ammo) are "legal".
Couldn't you just as easily be in possession of an illegal firearm?


Legalized pot eliminates the criminal middle men.

How many people have died from mishandling pot?
How many have smoked them selves to death?
How many deaths from second hand pot smoke?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 7, 2014 - 12:59pm PT
^^^ Job creators. lol

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 7, 2014 - 01:04pm PT
That Virgin River land he actually owns would be perfect! Water, soil, sunshine and an armed "militia" to protect it. Even the Feds won't dare invade.
Toke up Blundy!!!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 7, 2014 - 01:05pm PT
I think it's "Blunty".
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 7, 2014 - 01:06pm PT
That's not an "Improvement" that's a rusting canker sore and a blight.
There are a half dozen more on Google Earth. I just thought that old railroad engine was the most amusing.

survival: my bad! Blunty it is.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 7, 2014 - 01:06pm PT
" Blunty" Big LOL


Look I stashed these rusting heaps of old train cars all over the place and trenched in miles of pipe for a COW-asis in the desert. Ain't I an improver?
John M

climber
May 7, 2014 - 01:13pm PT
This thread needs some Happy gun totting BLM feral militia dogs smoking blunts

[Click to View YouTube Video]
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 7, 2014 - 01:14pm PT
Statistics and facts speak for themselves JRig.


John M that was a awesome video.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
May 7, 2014 - 01:14pm PT
We could live without pot too, and other illicit drugs that directly support gangs and their use of illegal weaponry.

If you spent any time in Colo. recently, you'd have to think twice about calling pot "illicit." (It technically is I suppose because of federal law and that pesky Supremacy clause, but our fearless commander-in-chief, through his equally fearless AG, has assured us that the federal law won't be enforced against operations that comply with Colo. law.)

Notwithstanding Jaybro's whacky theory about surging pot-related car crashes in Boulder, some crazy guy shooting his wife after she refused to shoot him, and an African student jumping to his death from a hotel balcony, and a steady stream of BHO explosiions . . .

it all seems to be working out really well!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 7, 2014 - 01:37pm PT








philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 7, 2014 - 01:50pm PT
Golf! Golf? Really?

Hey JRig do you know why they called it golf?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 7, 2014 - 01:52pm PT
golf?
flog in reverse?

Philo I'm turning you in to the ASPCA
THREADDRIFT
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 7, 2014 - 01:52pm PT
What's his take on it?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 7, 2014 - 01:54pm PT
Golf is lame because it takes up so damn much ground, water, maintenance, etc....that is all.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 7, 2014 - 01:56pm PT
Golf is nothing left to live for but plaid pants. Same about cattle ranching and chaps.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 7, 2014 - 01:56pm PT
Survival some might say the same about cattle ranching.

Now if we could only find a way to harness the power of all that methane.

















































philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 7, 2014 - 02:05pm PT
They call it "GOLF" because "shit", "damn" and "f*#k" were already taken.
So was "cow fart"
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
May 7, 2014 - 02:37pm PT
all this gun talk makes me sweaty...

[Click to View YouTube Video]
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 7, 2014 - 03:24pm PT
too effin' funny!!!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 7, 2014 - 03:30pm PT
I hope this will turn into a civil war.

Don't watch this, cuz it might burst your bubble about how cool war is.

C'mon fatty, strictly over the horizon right bro?

Damn ron, all your gun toting friends will be so happy!

Wooo hooo, illegal cows! Stand your ground damnit!!
REVOLUTION!!!
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 7, 2014 - 07:31pm PT
You guys and your anti-moocher, anti-moron mentalities...

Fixed it for you. You're welcome.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 7, 2014 - 07:32pm PT
All the other ranchers pay their grazing fees to fatten their cattle on Federal land

why shouldn't Mr. Bundy?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 7, 2014 - 09:31pm PT
What's not to believe there?
(dripping sarcasm)
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
May 7, 2014 - 09:41pm PT
Wow. I just found the whopper of all militia/conspiracy/nutjob websites.

Following the these sovereign citizens, militias, and birthers is a hobby of mine. A great clearing house for reliable information is www.thefogbow.com, here is a link to their index of fringe individuals and groups http://www.thefogbow.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=55

Operation American Spring (OAS) led by Colonel Harry Riley is relatively sane compared to some of these people.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 8, 2014 - 01:03am PT
What is one of our BAISIC necessities? You guys are laughable...

Literacy.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 8, 2014 - 12:11pm PT
How about for manuals?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 8, 2014 - 12:23pm PT
And they are udderly dangerous.


There’s a new methane champ, says the Environmental Protection Agency, which found in a new draft report on greenhouse gases that cattle passed the natural-gas industry as the biggest source of U.S. methane emissions in 2012.


Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 8, 2014 - 12:30pm PT
Wait til the EPA gets a load of this methane dump.
mrtropy

Trad climber
Nor Cal
May 8, 2014 - 12:35pm PT
I love that area around Monitor Pass. Those are so cool roads.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 8, 2014 - 01:00pm PT
If it had been a black gay rancher the militia would've stayed home.


Fortmental has a good point. The only two times I've been chased off of BLM land it was by ranchers who thought and acted like they owned the place, because their cattle were there.

Both times we were clearly on a walking/horseback situation and ZERO threat to their damn moo moos. Both times it was clearly marked BLM land.
Once, the "cowpokes" in their new dodge powerwagon were clearly packing rifles and handguns and were damn aggressive.

BLM is the problem my ass.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 8, 2014 - 01:04pm PT
What about a black gay Republican rancher?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 8, 2014 - 01:19pm PT
If it had been a black gay rancher the militia would've stayed home.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
May 8, 2014 - 02:29pm PT
The federal gov did not typically reserve easements when it granted lands under the various homestead acts cause it has the power of eminent domain. Maybe Nevada has some sort of implied easement rule for historical access.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
May 8, 2014 - 02:42pm PT
Maybe Nevada has some sort of implied easement rule for historical access.

Under common law, there is something called an easement by prescription. If someone -- or the public -- uses private land openly and notoriously for ingress and egress, for example, after a period of years (five in California, seven in most jurisdictions of which I am aware), the law imposes a prescriptive easement on the land. It's related to the law of adverse possession or, less technically, squatters' rights.

I am unaware of any right to a prescriptive easement on public land, and I seriously doubt that one exists, but it most certainly does on private land.

Several years ago, a landowner fenced off an access road used to reach the top of Tollhouse Rock. If we had pushed the point, the landowner would have been forced to remove that fence, because we had irrefutable proof of the use of the road by the public to access the top of the Rock. No one chose to litigate, however, and we ended up with alternate approaches that are satisfactory, but the option existed.

I suspect most landowners erect barriers on routes being used by others precisely to preserve their rights against prescriptive easements.

John
John M

climber
May 8, 2014 - 04:14pm PT
maybe we should get the militia dudes to open up the roads..
WBraun

climber
May 8, 2014 - 06:46pm PT
The US govt should provide free military airline passage to Nigeria for the US Militia to find and destroy Boko Haram.

The US Militia can go all commando on that fuker Boko Haram.

C'mon dudes get yer guns and hunt down that fukhead Boko Haram .......
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 8, 2014 - 07:05pm PT
We climbers ARE good stewards of the land

DMT, didn't you mean mostly good stewards? We've all seen plenty of
trash left by climbers, bushes and flowers trampled, trees cut down, holds
chipped, and don't get me started on boomboxes.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 8, 2014 - 07:05pm PT
Finally the smoking duck makes sense!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 8, 2014 - 07:29pm PT
OK, I guess I never saw any of that stuff.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
May 8, 2014 - 07:48pm PT
The US govt should provide free military airline passage to Nigeria for the US Militia to find and destroy Boko Haram.

The US Militia can go all commando on that fuker Boko Haram.

C'mon dudes get yer guns and hunt down that fukhead Boko Haram .......


Or we could just send that legendary war hero, The Chief.
WBraun

climber
May 8, 2014 - 08:37pm PT
Or we could just send that legendary war hero, The Chief.


Yeah we'll send him and modernize him.

We'll give him his own Apache helicopter with full metal jacket.

Boko Haram will become burnt toast .......
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
May 8, 2014 - 10:22pm PT
According to Mr Rashan a black man in Searchlight, he hunts Bundys property every year with his black friends

I guess these black folks are just not as smart at the white militia who found Bundy's property very easily. Any chance that Craven was sending out maps via email?

BTW, does anyone have Craven Bundy's email address?
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
May 8, 2014 - 11:25pm PT
The Duck is quacking quite a good tune. I've got tons of airline miles and could contribute to a brigades airfare oneway to the dark continent. I can see it now- nightly newscasts of the body counts at the battle of Bunkerville Nigeria.EDIT: That could be a lucrative venture Ron and you could mount the heads for display at the war museum.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 8, 2014 - 11:42pm PT
Ron wrote: Not hard when there is such a target rich environment from the lefty gubbmint/admin (term used loosely) currently lying through its teeth and making a mockery of foreign affairs.

Dumb ass Fox News couldn't have said it better.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
May 8, 2014 - 11:58pm PT
Nigeria , sand , and pussies..What could go wrong....?
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 9, 2014 - 12:12am PT
Hey, Ron, you and jonnie just blather away here. It's so interesting.

rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
May 9, 2014 - 01:20am PT
Base. First, what are you doing posting on such a ridiculous shetfast as this thread?

Second, that was a pretty imformative paper you linked above. So, is this the answer to my question about Noble's gamble in Elko County in northeast Nevada, no where near the Bundy's? Zip, zero, zilch, as far as recognized shale play's? Do you have any info on their first two wells?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 9, 2014 - 08:37am PT
I just love it when posters come on a thread to tell other posters that they are wasting their time posting on some stupid waste of time thread.
Got irony?


And then there is this;
Not hard when there is such a target rich environment from the lefty gubbmint/admin (term used loosely) currently lying through its teeth and making a mockery of foreign affairs

Sound suspiciously seditious there Ronboi.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 9, 2014 - 08:43am PT
And so you are all good with the republicans doing nothing but squandering hundreds of millions of tax dollars on phony investigations and repeat attempts to repeal Obama care?

Yer a peach Rong a real true spew Americunt.


philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 9, 2014 - 08:49am PT
Got Irony Bundyboi?

You reek of oCOWpie MOOvement hypocrisy..
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 9, 2014 - 08:57am PT
Rong you spew crap so much and put your foot in your mouth so often I have to think you are suffering from Hoof and Mouth disease.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 9, 2014 - 09:11am PT
Hey Rong are you planning on "Watering the tree of Liberty like your brokeback brother in arms tried to do to Gabby Giffords?
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
May 9, 2014 - 09:15am PT
hillary is soo gross!
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 9, 2014 - 09:19am PT
Average Fox viewer is a 68 year-old white man. Ron must be close that that age, I'm guessing.

Enemies are the bread and butter of Fox News. The network is notorious for churning out an endless stream of people its viewers are instructed to fear and loathe: feminists, gay people, immigrants, atheists and the Bureau of Land Management. This constant stream of enemies helps keep viewers tuning in to see whom they need to hate this week and keeps them in a state of perpetual anger and fear so that they’re easy to manipulate politically.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 9, 2014 - 09:44am PT



Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 9, 2014 - 09:46am PT
I dont support liars and thieves.. Like you do...

Don't you support Cliven Bundy?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 9, 2014 - 09:52am PT
http://m.sltrib.com/sltrib/mobile3/57917374-219/wrangler-blm-reid-pickup.html.csp

^^^ Most excellent. New riders of the lunatic fringe.
Hey does anyone know what kind of rig Rong drives?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
May 9, 2014 - 11:59am PT
Bokbokbokbok baaakaaaak! Chickens comin' home to roost:

Those supporters of Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy who may have pointed weapons at law enforcement during a showdown at Bundy's ranch last month could soon face consequences.

Las Vegas TV station KLAS reported Thursday that the FBI has begun interviewing Clark County sheriff's officials in what the news station describes as a "formal investigation into alleged death threats, intimidation and possible weapons violations" on the part of the Bundy militia.

And Rong? Get yer ass off that 'puter and stock them shelves boy. After that, the floor needs moppin' and rearrange that rack of mossy oak by size...from XL to XXXXL. The shipment of fishin lures need sortin' too, yer gonna be a busy boy today.

John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
May 9, 2014 - 12:36pm PT
Las Vegas TV station KLAS reported Thursday that the FBI has begun interviewing Clark County sheriff's officials in what the news station describes as a "formal investigation into alleged death threats, intimidation and possible weapons violations" on the part of the Bundy militia.

I guess now, they'll be happy the Libs won waterboarding.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 9, 2014 - 02:04pm PT
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 9, 2014 - 02:04pm PT
From the linked SLTribune article
The wrangler was driving a load of horses and burros north on Interstate 15 about 11 a.m. near Mills when a dark blue Dodge 1500 extended-cab pickup pulled up alongside the wrangler. The two occupants "told him he was No. 1 with that certain gesture," said Eric Reid, the wrangler’s supervisor at the U.S. Bureau of Land Management’s Fillmore Field Office.

The pickup fell back and the wrangler continued north. A few minutes later, the pickup reappeared, Reid said. The men, wearing hoods, held up a sign, apparently scrawled on a piece of paper, that read, "You need to die." One of the men pointed what appeared to be a Glock handgun at the wrangler.
This is serious business. Time to equip all the BLM and other federal vehicles in the area with GoPros on the dashboard. Or better, in the left rear fender. So when the whackos try to shoot it out, they won't hit the driver.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
May 9, 2014 - 06:28pm PT
Been wanting to shave a few points off your IQ?

Watch this KKKliven Bundy home schoolin government lesson, it will set you back a good 10 points

[Click to View YouTube Video]
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 9, 2014 - 06:40pm PT
how many people actually will choose to be indoctrinated by it.
The first modern propagandist was Goebbels
He and Hitler knew that if they repeated the same lies often enough they would become pseudo-facts.
Blunty has swallowed the Kool-Aid and wants more to follow his lead. Because without his armed supporters he'll be in prison inside a week.
He is virtually imprisoned now. Next time he steps foot in town without an armed escort he'll end up in the clink.
And you can take that prognostication with a grain of salt.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
May 9, 2014 - 06:56pm PT
How long you reckon before Bundy and his klan get tired of paying to feed his little freeloading derp brigade of "militia-men"?

Maybe they'll just subsist off watermelons and those skinny ass cattle? Or start shooting and eating each other?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 9, 2014 - 07:01pm PT
They'll just ride off into the sunset a few at a time when their sensible wimmen' folk have had enough. Or when they run out of beer.
Some of them will be picked up on outstanding warrants or charged with various crimes.
Some of them will beat up or even shoot each other.

so much for a "well regulated militia"
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
May 9, 2014 - 07:48pm PT
holy shiht....that boarding video!

Makes SUP look like rednecks surfing cows with sticks.

+ 1

I never was a fan of swimming a board out beyond the surf. This really gets you into the action right away.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 9, 2014 - 10:15pm PT
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
May 9, 2014 - 11:32pm PT
http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Open-Carry-Demonstrators-Scare-Fort-Worth-Employees-257751871.html
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
May 9, 2014 - 11:58pm PT
Not sure which would be scarier.....Wing-nut protesters carrying high powered rifles in front of jack in the crack or working inside jack -in-the - crack serving infectious feces burgers...you deserve a brake today...
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 10, 2014 - 01:13am PT
Looks like Ron will be heading to Utah.

Militiamen and woman camping on Cliven Bundy’s cattle ranch are packing up and heading to Utah where another protest against the Bureau of Land Management will happen Saturday.


Ryan Payne, a Montana resident who had been staying at the ranch for a month, said he drove eight hours to arrive in the eastern Utah town this morning. Three militia members from the ranch and a handful of people from a group called Citizens Action Network came to Utah, too, he said.

"This is where it’s happening Saturday,” he said.

They and others Saturday will be armed, he said, and ride ATVs into Recapture Canyon, an area the BLM declared off-limits to motorized vehicles in 2007. The ride is organized by San Juan County, Utah, Commissioner Phil Lyman.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
May 10, 2014 - 01:26am PT
I'd like the south of the border taco without sand please...
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 10, 2014 - 02:32pm PT
Bit more info on Utah:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/09/creeping-bundyism-the-nex_n_5297384.html?utm_hp_ref=politics

a Utah county commissioner is trading in Nevada's horses for ATVs and urging fellow activists to illegally ride through a publicly owned 11-mile canyon on Saturday as a statement against federal "overreach."

"Our action is not aggressive or mean, it is purely defensive and intended to demonstrate that, despite heavy-handed federal action against us and our community, we still look to the BLM to respect the law and to follow their own rules and regulations which protect local interests and appropriately recognize State and County jurisdictional authority," said San Juan County Commissioner Phil Lyman, a conservative Republican.

Recapture Canyon, located near Blanding, Utah, was closed to motorized vehicles in 2007 to protect Native American ruins after officials discovered an illegally constructed trail that ran through 1,000-year-old ancestral Puebloan archaeological site. Violating the closure can cost a person up to a $1,000 fine and 12 months in jail.

But on Wednesday, Bundy's militia lent its voice to the cause by urging followers to join the foray into the Utah canyon.

A group of war veterans were forced to cancel "a traditional Navajo Warrior welcoming home ceremony" scheduled to take place in the wilderness near the area out of concern that the ATV ride could get out of hand.

And local tribal groups also view the event as yet another example of disrespect aimed at Native American cultural heritage.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
May 10, 2014 - 02:54pm PT
The dirt bikers , ATV users , and ranchers need to be held accountable for the resource damage they create instead of passing the costs onto other tax payers who don't ever set foot on the land..
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 10, 2014 - 04:22pm PT
Militia.....white trash with weapons......and, just maybe, a little crystal meth.
Sanskara

climber
May 10, 2014 - 09:00pm PT
It's a state of mind not just a condition...
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 10, 2014 - 09:40pm PT
Ron: I know Donini has the SE Asia 60's Green Beret experience to call bull-schist on any of your crazed right-wing Vets.



But then, he almost never talks about it, like most Vets with a lot of real experience.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
May 10, 2014 - 10:29pm PT
Look at those dipshits riding their fukin ATVs like they're outlaws... Such rebels.

White trash is exactly right.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 10, 2014 - 10:29pm PT
Ron: I will take that as a complement.

I suspect those gun-toting vixins in your brigade have distracted you from the real world,


but reality is good,------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ and revolution isn't good.

sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
May 10, 2014 - 10:41pm PT
Get your fat fukin ass off your ATV and walk through the canyon, or are they collecting government-assisted disability as well, while protesting the government?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 10, 2014 - 11:31pm PT
Fritz wrote: Ron: I know Donini has the SE Asia 60's Green Beret experience to call bull-schist on any of your crazed right-wing Vets.


Bingo. Jim is a badass. Ron is just an ass.


Fritz...you have to understand that Ron goes to play war everyday in that child's brain of his.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 11, 2014 - 12:09am PT
any decent canyon rim sniper could put an ATV out of commission. Whats the best round to penetrate a white trash dumbfck engine block? Bullet in the head? Chef? Ron? Sketch has no clue. Sumpter?
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
May 11, 2014 - 12:13am PT
erstwhile,




survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 11, 2014 - 03:16am PT
So any anti government action is good in your mind Ron?

And if there is a republican administration next time around, will they still be patriots and freedom fighters, or just common criminals?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 11, 2014 - 04:38am PT
Ol' ElRongo sure got his camo thong all knotted up.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 11, 2014 - 10:57pm PT
Recapture canyon child endangerment
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 12, 2014 - 12:39am PT
"Teach your children well their Father's hell will surely go by"
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
May 12, 2014 - 01:19am PT
Funny the kids waving the "Don't tread on Me" flags while just perfectly positioned to fall off and get trod upon...

... perhaps they are waving the flags to remind Dad not to kill them.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 12, 2014 - 06:32am PT
It's awesome when those POS break down and everyone gets to carry their flag while they.......wait for it...............WALK!!

I'm not too worried though. Our government has weathered far bigger storms than these fools and will come out on top here too.

Uncle Sam has long arms, and a long memory, and a much bigger dick than these Bud Lite insurgents.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 12, 2014 - 09:33am PT
Careful there Survival you may be labeled "Impolite" for calling them POS's.
You might make them cry.

You know how sensitive those manly men can get when they stand behind their skirts.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 12, 2014 - 10:41am PT
Ron you need to smoke something besides pole.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 12, 2014 - 10:53am PT
^^^ Seditious anti-American sovereign loon.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 12, 2014 - 10:54am PT
Ron, your prejudices are clouding your thinking. I have been working on land stewardship issues with the BLM in Indian Creek for five years. They assure me that climbers are head and shoulders above jeepers and atv cowboys when it comes to stewardship.
They also have told me that climbers are one of only TWO groups who have volunteered their services for stewardship. The other group was a women's hiking organization. Combustible engine cowboys have been completely absent....no big surprise there.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 12, 2014 - 10:55am PT
Thanks for all your worthy efforts Jim.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 12, 2014 - 11:25am PT
Ron
you're a clever one. Yes, the pic of the bozos on the ATV looks as if it's not moving
Of course that could just be a very fast shutter.
But besides that, how is it that all three flags are out?

It's really a shame that these anti-social Neanderthals weren't met by a chain of parked pickups blocking the trail. Someone's got to have the cojones to call their bluff.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
May 12, 2014 - 11:27am PT
Is that Dr. Fist...?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 12, 2014 - 11:29am PT
And this little piggy went I Ron Eeeeeeeeeeek all the way home.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 12, 2014 - 11:34am PT
I have been working with the BLM since 1984 starting in the San Luis Valley and then at Shelf Rd. Always helpful and they have really stepped up to the plate when it comes to climbers in the area.

Climbers are far from perfect but just like Jim the BLM has told me that they enjoy working with climbers and find them to be for most of the time...respectful.


philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 12, 2014 - 11:36am PT
Hey Bob how many guns did it take to get the Man to be cooperative?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 12, 2014 - 11:38am PT
Zip...Philo. Shelf Rd....over 100,000 users days last year, great trails, great climbing and great campgrounds.

San Luis Valley/Penitente Canyon...over 55,000 users days last year, great mountain bike trails, great campsite and great climbing.


philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 12, 2014 - 11:41am PT
No Guns? No armed stand offs? Where's the patriotism in that?
Sheesh what do you think this is America or something. :-)

Oh wait my mistake this is ColoRADo not NeevadaStan it all makes sense now..
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
May 12, 2014 - 11:44am PT

And that is the 4443 .. working together as a community, instead of forcing your will with guns.

"We are all at each other's mercy, and if you have this dream of destruction, it's not going to come out well for all of us."
Sam Baker.

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 12, 2014 - 11:45am PT
Yeah, I had guessed it was the cheap plastic stands on it's own kinda flag. Helluva way to respect the Stars and Stripes
Isnt that a bit ironic?
I find absolutely nothing ironic about working with the BLM, USFS, NPS, State Parks, private parties to work out land access issues.
I've been directly involved with State Parks on both master planning and fire road maintenance. We've had "issues" which we've worked out to mutual satisfaction.
What I find ironic is in the 21st century there are antediluvian troglodytes who believe that blustering around with ATVs, semiautomatic firearms and children is the American way to achieve goals.
Teach your children well.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 12, 2014 - 11:51am PT
This one is moving. Helmets for the kiddies? What helmets?

I really hope that AR-15 is loaded and off safety
Love the patriotic T-shirt
WTF? Our big guy is driving a Honda???? He must be a BLM mole in disguise. Real Men drive Deeres.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 12, 2014 - 12:05pm PT
Ron wrote: Isnt that a bit ironic?


Yes it is...we were carrying shovels, not guns.

Your crew are bat sh#t crazy.


Ron wrote: Did you know we have folks lined up at our doors three hours before opening on fridays to be the first in line for the weekly ammo shipments?


Yes the little boys must play war.
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
May 12, 2014 - 12:06pm PT
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
May 12, 2014 - 12:08pm PT
Is the child riding up front of the 4 wheeler a shield incase of BLM gun fire?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 12, 2014 - 12:10pm PT
Just did the FA of this 12a in the San Luis Valley. no guns, just a bosch.

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 12, 2014 - 12:15pm PT
he Organized off road clubs are indeed often a shining example of how to behave and contribute.

This is where the Angeles Chapter of the Sierra Club screwed up many years ago. The forced out the Back Road Explorers Section, a good group of 4WD folks who cared about the land they traveled. Some hot headed wilderness "purists" forced them out in a very short sighted move.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 12, 2014 - 12:15pm PT
How many of you wear helmets while climbing? Do your kids?
Yes, and yes. As well as downhill skiing and bicycling. A child's brain is a terrible thing to waste.
Mine's already wasted. I need to conserve as much of it as I can.

Gary
good point, but then how do you keep out the reckless off road users? The rotten apples spoil the barrel.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 12, 2014 - 12:17pm PT
Wimins n chilin furst.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 12, 2014 - 12:23pm PT
Just look at the scene around Index Washington. Most forest service roads have been closed and gated specifically to try to keep the drunk gun and ATV nuts out

This aggression must not stand, Mr Obammy tear down that gate.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
May 12, 2014 - 12:24pm PT
Bob said
Just did the FA of this 12a in the San Luis Valley. no guns, just a bosch.

But without an openly carried gun, can you really call it "free?"

Concealed carry is aid.
dirtbag

climber
May 12, 2014 - 12:36pm PT
I'm sure I'm not the only one here who would not shed a tear if some of those dumb, redneck, secessionist sonsofbitches ended up with their asses shot off sometime.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
May 12, 2014 - 12:42pm PT
As a former resident of shell rd, 5th house on right before the locked gate.
..I have to agree with Dingus..

edit from below..Before the dam was built (the Bureau of Reclamation) ..it was private cattle ranching land with a locked gate..no public use of any kind . I knew the former owner.


Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 12, 2014 - 12:45pm PT
I think all users have a right to use certain lands...some lands cannot take the abuse/use by certain users....period.


We have evolve.



Some groups haven't.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 12, 2014 - 12:49pm PT
I live in Ouray where four wheelers congregate in summer and I climb a lot on BLM land. While the majority of four wheelers are responsible, a significant minority are not....to the extent that, taken as a whole, they are not a desirable user group on public lands.
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
May 12, 2014 - 12:56pm PT
Jrig, they were not using a backstop. Tack on some BS about resource damage and we can just gate that sh#t for good.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 12, 2014 - 12:56pm PT
Then Survival tells them to get off and walk,, doesnt he own horses??

No Ron, what I said was it's funny when their POS breaks down and they're forced to walk.

Yes, I own horses, which are legal in said canyon. I wouldn't have a problem with Joe Rambo taking his horse there.

The irony is all in between your ears. A guy who talks big about being a gov't LEO being a gov't hater, that's ironic.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
May 12, 2014 - 12:58pm PT
If the BLM can muster 200 heavily armed LEO's and helicopters to counter the threat of one measly cattle rancher in bum fuk nevada can't they do a little policing of the bad element minority despoiling our backcountry with irresponsible ATVing and drunken shootups of the shrubbery? I mean rather than have the responsible majority pay for the sins of the irresponsible minority.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 12, 2014 - 01:04pm PT
Johnny wrote: Good to know you believe in punishing the responsible majority for the actions of the minority donini.

Happens all the time...to climbers too and other users.

Another new route (13a) in the San Luis valley...just bolts, no guns.


survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 12, 2014 - 01:07pm PT
I like the dude with the AR. I betcha he's one of them purple heart Nam point walkers Ron keeps talking about. Errrr, I mean point ATV'ers....
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
May 12, 2014 - 01:10pm PT

Dingus, lol..you don't even know all the other sh#t.....
When we lived on shell rd, most of our neighbors did not have garbage service...open pits for garbage... ah, the sweet sweet smell of summer....
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
May 12, 2014 - 01:16pm PT
Isn't rappel bolting routes of the future, climbable with less of visual impact by future climbers of heretofore unseen mutant abilities, considered despoiling the backcountry by a significant percentage of the climbing community, Bob?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 12, 2014 - 01:33pm PT
The actions of a bad minority paint any group with a whole brush. If the actions are bad enough authorities take action. It's up to any user group on public lands to police their group AND to ameliorate (thru stewardship) the invetitable environmental damage their use incurs.

It is well known that different user groups are better or worse relative to the damage they do and the efforts they make to repair that damage. I think that climbers, as a user group, are far superior to four wheelers and dirt bikers in both respecting the places where they play and in volunteering to rectify their impact.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 12, 2014 - 01:35pm PT
Sucked in again. Dammit!

A vehicle is not protected by civil rights or freedoms. It is a privilege not a right. Vehicles can be regulated at will and with good reasoning.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 12, 2014 - 01:39pm PT
Yes.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 12, 2014 - 01:41pm PT
Ban 'em all.

Foot traffic and cameras only. Suits me.




thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
May 12, 2014 - 01:43pm PT
ignorance of bolt bans or falcon closures don't have the potential to kill people like the lack of a backstop does.

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
May 12, 2014 - 01:46pm PT
Im just pointing out hypocracy to you.
A few climbers f*#k up, they close an area, you cry foul. Because you recognize them as the minority.
A few gun nuts or wheelers f*#k up, you cry ban em all. Because you percieve them to be the majority, or as in donini,s pov feel that a few f*#kups are justification enough to f*#k the rest of the user group.

These dudes riding in protest and in violation of the law will do no favors to themselves or the rest of us. As with the cow guy. Niether does the ban em all attitude.

Maybe they were right in closing your particular road, maybe the majority of use there was irresponsible. Im just sayin dont drive through LA rush hour and assume all traffic is the same.

a sensical expression on this thread will get you no where. the sides have spoken. either you are a gun nut or a liberal and trying to get one side to see the others will surely result in crap from both sides. so thanks for bringing up some common sense!
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 12, 2014 - 01:46pm PT
Climbers are pretty good at self policing. I have run four successive climber volunteer days at Indian Creek with the BLM. The last one attracted 70 participants. Climbers have also respected seasonal bird closures in the area and do not climb where climbing has been banned because of petroglyphs.
Some four wheelers, evidenced by their tire tracks, have not respected the rules concerning where they can and cannot ride nor have they, as a group, ever volunteered their services for restoration projects.
The facts speak for themselves.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
May 12, 2014 - 01:48pm PT
The facts as I see them speak for themselves

i fixed that for you...
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 12, 2014 - 01:54pm PT
Wrong Hawkeye....regarding special user groups on the two million acres of BLM land in the Monticello district of Utah the facts are as the BLM administators see them.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 12, 2014 - 01:56pm PT
Survival have you been to Auburn yet? Best hurry before they close it again.


Yes, I have. There's some climbing there, but not worth getting all gun toting, atv protesting riding about.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 12, 2014 - 01:57pm PT
Many, if not most, people do not realize how many 'liberals' own guns
but don't belong to the NRA or rally at poor beleagured rancher's. A
well known journalist who describes himself as "more than a little liberal"
wrote a book about this last year.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 12, 2014 - 02:01pm PT
It can be the case but I doubt very much that it WILL be the case.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
May 12, 2014 - 02:05pm PT
yeah donini, you should include all those everest climbers in your most favored user group as well...sorry, but i dont believe the BS that all climbers are great stewards of the environment anymore than i believe all people who like guns are crazy.

i went to an honest to god shooting range for the first time in my life last weekend. shot a friends AR-15. that was fun but the most killer discovery i had was just how friendly everyone was there. compare this to going to a popular crag and one could conclude that climbers are a$$holes.
Joshua Johnson

Boulder climber
Boulder
May 12, 2014 - 02:09pm PT
You got the boot here too Burchey.

Coincidence?

Why don't you make like a tree and leave.
John M

climber
May 12, 2014 - 02:19pm PT
I sold my sled because the damn quiet was ruining my experience. It was so damn quiet I couldn't hear my sled. When I get a powerful engine, I want to be able to hear it.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 12, 2014 - 02:20pm PT
Wrong again Hawkeye....the folks you refer to on Everest are NOT climbers.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 12, 2014 - 03:06pm PT
Just look at the scene around Index Washington. Most forest service roads have been closed and gated specifically to try to keep the drunk gun and ATV nuts out, not the climbers.

Sunday, above Frazier Park, we hiked From Brush to San Emigdio Peaks. Nice day, cool views, cobalt blue sky, but the hike was along 4WD roads. Several spots had fencing where Los Padres NF was trying to keep off-roaders from certain slopes. The fences were all intact, no one had try to trail blaze around them, or just run them over. I was impressed. A nice change.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 12, 2014 - 04:28pm PT
Or ignored a falcon closure?
Climbing is not a protected right either.
Completely agreed.
There has been a Peregrine Falcon closure at Summit Rock just down the road for several years. It was mostly respected by the local climbers in spite of a lot of unhappiness. Now it's only open in winter and by advanced registration. Thanks to rational lobbying by the Access Fund.
The Yosemite and Pinnacles closures are obeyed. Unfortunately I believe none of these would be obeyed without law enforcement and heavy fines.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 12, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
The little arguement today about the right-winger ATV protest without helmets, but with lots of small children hanging on, plus Ron's using the word ironic a couple times reminded me of Idaho's one time Sagebrush Rebel and ultra-right Congresswoman Helen Chenoweth.

From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Chenoweth-Hage

During her tenure, she was referred to by her most outspoken critics as a "poster-child for the militias," and in February 1995 she voiced the suspicion that armed federal agents were landing black helicopters on Idaho ranchers' property to enforce the Endangered Species Act, in line with a longstanding conspiracy theory.
Helen, of course, was against all forms of government regulation.

I find it "ironic" that in 2006, she was in a minor one-car roll-over in Nevada, and died because she wasn't wearing that evil government tool of repression, a seatbelt.

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 12, 2014 - 04:33pm PT
I've not been an angel myself.
As a crazy adolescent I used to tear up the hillsides and mountains around Salt Lake Valley on my enduro motorcycle. I'm not proud of that at all, even though it was not illegal at the time.
Then I got conservation religion and sold the beast for a road machine.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 12, 2014 - 04:55pm PT
Would the other climbers stand by and allow that to happen?
I've heard plenty of complaining on this forum in the past about the closures. A great deal of complaining about the Summit Rock falcon closure. I know some climbers have not respected that closure.
I've also watched a Peregrine Falcon in late October take a ground squirrel off a ledge on the east face of El Cap near Horsetail Falls and carry it up to its nest on the pinnacles 1/2 way up the NA wall.
Awesome.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 12, 2014 - 05:47pm PT
seen osprey or the like take trout out of a lake.
A pair of ospreys.
Several years in a row at a lake near Kings Canyon. Wonderful stuff
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 12, 2014 - 06:32pm PT
I've had several insanely close encounters of an almost communal nature with raptors of many kinds on the walls of the Black Canyon some flying close enough to nearly touch.
They are often quite curious and seem to know when you are not a threat. I've always respected the raptor closures and have stayed off the nesting walls but the magnificent birds still came to us to check us out. One time last century way up high on the Painted Wall we became aware of an unknown nesting pair in the middle of nowhere between the Forrest Walker and the Mirkwood routes. The wall wasn't closed because noone knew they were there. No one was going to get to that nest to disturb it and the rangers were aware of the pair but not where they nested. We reported it to the BLM and felt good!
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 12, 2014 - 06:46pm PT
Johnny Rig writes:
"Would you feel the same if an area were closed because climbers violated a no-bolt order?
Or ignored a falcon closure?
Climbing is not a protected right either."

Climbing is an extension of walking and exploring. Therefore it is elemental to being human. There is no comparison. Try to keep the ridiculous metaphors to a minimum as they merely confuse you.

If the area is already closed then wtf are you saying? Climbers accept road closures and even encourage them. Tuolumne had boondock pullouts but that's finished and it's a good thing. Motorized recreation in the wilderness is a dinosaur. Chubby throttle jockeys need to learn to walk. It's a human thing.

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 12, 2014 - 07:08pm PT
Fritz, the irony of her death is tinged with tragedy....she had already bred.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 12, 2014 - 07:27pm PT
Jim: As the saying goes:
Stupid kills, but often not soon enough.
WBraun

climber
May 12, 2014 - 07:54pm PT
Oh cry us a river.

You've already said all this sh!t 4000 posts ad nauseam.

So who's the little girl crying, YOU.

Go to Bundy and the militia in person and tell your whinny runny mouth to them in person.

You guys are pathetic.

You internet tough guys here are all blah blah blah blah.

Stoooopid .....


philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 12, 2014 - 07:59pm PT
^^^ Hey stooooooopid, who are you talking to?
WBraun

climber
May 12, 2014 - 08:07pm PT
jonnyrig

My post wasn't aimed at you at all.

You got more sense then most of these knuckleheads in this thread .....
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
May 12, 2014 - 08:09pm PT
You internet tough guys here are all blah blah blah blah.

lol

you mad bro?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
May 12, 2014 - 08:43pm PT
Bruce...It's not just you...We all fear the sound of Werner's other shoe dropping...he needs to add a few more phillipino boys to his harem....
WBraun

climber
May 12, 2014 - 08:51pm PT
Yes you're blessed Bruce.

You're NOT a coward and that's for sure.

And your Rob Ford video in that other thread cracked me up.

I was dying laughing watching that.

Rob Ford should have his own show like "The late Night show" or some such .....
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 12, 2014 - 08:52pm PT
Werner...for being such a spiritual, luminous being...you are one angry bastard.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 12, 2014 - 08:52pm PT
Well Werner, I guess we're all pussies to some extent but, getting up close and personal with cowboys (twice) and ranchers (once) leads me to believe that there mythical toughness is pure bullsh#t....i'll take a Philly street kid to watch my back any time.
I must admit that my sample is not statistically significant.
My gut feeling is that turkey necked Cliven and his ship of fools would sh#t their pants when the first shot was fired across the bow.

edit: Bobby D. was a Philly street kid and, fair warning, stay on his good side.
WBraun

climber
May 12, 2014 - 08:59pm PT
My gut feeling is that turkey necked Cliven and his ship of fools would sh#t their pants when the first shot was fired across the bow.

They wouldn't stand a chance we all know that and is a given.

Some of em I bet would be stupid enough to shoot back though.

There's always one in every crowd.

They were boxed in, in Death Valley a few years ago saying they'll fight to death.

The LEO negotiator must of done a hell of a job because they gave up peacefully.

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 12, 2014 - 09:08pm PT
Crankster...do you know Werner? I know Werner....sure he can get cranky, so would you if you had to deal with Yosemite tourists for forty years but he is a stand up guy who i am happy to call a friend.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 12, 2014 - 09:14pm PT
Jim D...I would take you over a hundred of the yahoo's in Bundy's camp to have my back.


You are the real deal. Hope all is well and I might pay a visit to your place down south next year.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 12, 2014 - 09:42pm PT
Hey if Donini and DAntonio are going to stand up and snarl fiercely at the pansies in the desert I'll put on a skirt and stand in front to protect them...


Crimea river Rongboi any sentient being would chose Bob D over you to have their back. You would probably be aiming at their backs. You don't have what it takes to climb in RMNP or the Black Canyon so take your pussy approaches and shove them where the cows don't graze.

Yes Werner I know I am a stupid anonymous coward yadda yadda ya.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 12, 2014 - 09:54pm PT
Dammit Locker dresses and skirts up front.
Cause we aint got no wimins n chilin.



I believe I am not an anonymous coward.
Folks know who I am and I don't hide behind my words I stand in front of them. Sometimes in a skirt lol. I am fortunate in that I already scratched my meager cred, I'm old enough to speak my mind. When I can locate it. And working for myself means I don't have to censor my inturdnet persona. I yam what I yam and ya gits what ya get. No doubt about the fact that I can get very carried away sometimes and I can get very passionate about some subjects.
But I post as me and what I believe. I try to base my posts on verifiable sources and add those links. I have been known to be wrong and I have apologized to some posters for my errors.
And I have been labeled the most hateful poster on ST forums and very impolite.
Bt to be called stoopid or whatever Werner says for speaking truth to power and using facts against lies is ironic.


Werner I have never met you but dig the crap out of what I know about the non ST you.
But when you flat out ignore the S.O.P. and unsubstantiated rhetoric of the rightwingers and instead spend your efforts admonishing the leftwingers for their sins it's a little like pooping in the pool.
WBraun

climber
May 12, 2014 - 10:16pm PT
Philo -- "I believe I am not an anonymous coward."

Nobody said you are.

Relax dude.

Everything will be OK.

Breath in breath out .......:-)
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 12, 2014 - 10:24pm PT
Bruce wrote: They thought about calling him horse but thought that would be adverse to his career path.


A Man called Horse....who here remembers that movie?
WBraun

climber
May 12, 2014 - 10:32pm PT
I'm not hiding anywhere aszhole.

You love to make sh!t up and run your stupid mouth against people here.

Keep trying to worm your way out you psychotic prick.

It will never work like that coward.

Your own psychotic self remains the coward .......



Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 12, 2014 - 10:35pm PT
I think Locker looks quite fit.
WBraun

climber
May 12, 2014 - 10:39pm PT
I know Ron

He's a psychotic coward and you easily tell by how he responds.

he's losing it.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 12, 2014 - 10:39pm PT
Ron, hospital whites or orange jumps. Pick one. Your future.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 12, 2014 - 10:50pm PT
What has crankster done Werner...I have no idea who High Traverse (who I respect) so I can only judge him by his posts here.

Same with other towards me.


Grow the hell up will you.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 12, 2014 - 10:51pm PT
Wow good thing Rong and the Smoking duck are not so crude as to speak impolitely and call people insulting names.
John M

climber
May 12, 2014 - 10:57pm PT
Werner doesn't like when people harass others while hiding their identity. At least thats how I read it.

Could be grossly wrong. heh heh..
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 12, 2014 - 10:57pm PT
hey crankersore,, queefuss,, ill be at the Woodfest. Come down and run your mouffs to me in person and see what it gets you.

Let me get this straight, Ron. You, a member of an armed, extremist anti-government militia, are reacting negatively to my criticism of a racist rancher by, what, threatening me? You want me to come to something called Woodfest (chainsaw sculptures?) to what, Ron, fight?

Isn't that a threat on the Internet, Ron. Isn't that illegal?

Let me tell you something Ron. I consider you a dangerous individual. I do think you should be locked up. I'd love to speed that process up anyway I can.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 12, 2014 - 10:59pm PT
I don't think Crankster is doing that. He just doesn't agree/like Ron's posts on this forum...he isn't alone...is he.


atchafalaya

Boulder climber
May 12, 2014 - 11:03pm PT
Ron's "dangerous" if you fear old feeble bastards who like to play tough guy on the internet. He is probably a nice person in person, but his shtick on supertopo just makes him look like an ass.

And since when did an anonymous poster need to state his name on supertopo to have a valid opinion.?
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 12, 2014 - 11:05pm PT
And since when did an anonymous poster need to state his name on supertopo to have a valid opinion.?

I don't get this. Was there a picnic I missed?
WBraun

climber
May 12, 2014 - 11:07pm PT
And since when did an anonymous poster need to state his name on supertopo to have a valid opinion.?

He doesn't have to.

But he remains a coward ......
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 12, 2014 - 11:08pm PT
Werner
what the heck ruffled your feathers? Chill a bit dude.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
May 12, 2014 - 11:13pm PT


Holy sh#t, Locker. Thread over.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 12, 2014 - 11:13pm PT
Werner wrote: He doesn't have to.

But he remains a coward ......


That is your opinion.


Locker is hot. :-)
WBraun

climber
May 12, 2014 - 11:24pm PT
I'm not hiding anywhere coward.

See how psychotic you are ......
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 12, 2014 - 11:25pm PT
I don't know what that means, not hiding. You're typing.
You want to meet after school, bully?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 12, 2014 - 11:28pm PT
crankster you just lost me.
Werner is a prickly duck for sure but he's no bully or coward. Nor is he stupid. Blunt, yes.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 12, 2014 - 11:35pm PT
Getting a little weird in here for me and that is saying a lot.

Bundy is still a criminal and so are his little band of cowards that back him.

Harry Reid was right.
John M

climber
May 12, 2014 - 11:38pm PT
"I'm Werner, ya know. I can say what I want around here, see".

Isn't that what you are doing? Only your identity is hidden..

"I'm Crankster, ya know. I can say what I want around here, see".
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 12, 2014 - 11:44pm PT
???

You could say:

John M
M John
John boy
M Boy.

Your name could be Shirley.

Who cares? What's hidden? Do forum members have a Christmas ornament exchange? Potluck?
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 12, 2014 - 11:59pm PT
Sure, jonnie, a cookie sound nice.

Things are getting awful "clubby" here tonight. I'm gonna skip the campfire and focus on the racist militia.
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
May 13, 2014 - 09:32am PT
In other news,
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 13, 2014 - 09:43am PT
Ron, you go to work and protest outside holding pro-gun control placards and see how long you keep your job.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 13, 2014 - 09:45am PT
Seems laws dont apply anymore.. Lois Lerner and Eric Holder have stood in contempt of Congress without any repercussion, Obama , hillary and rice lie through their teeth to ALL of America, and now first amendment rights will be used against you. Seems the govt is getting what they have asked for and exemplified. Like Hillary clinton refusing to list bozo-harum as a terrorist organization for over two years- just more lies that have been soundly proven now. A large part of Americans are no longer willing to put up with govt BS and lies. Yes BUSH had much to do with this and so has Obama. The kept chiseling at our rights and now the pot is boiling over on them. Isnt it a little Ironic?

ZZZZZZzzz, nonsense right-wing Fox talking points channeled through Militiaman Ron (the perfect host).
No conspiracy or hoax is too dumb for this crowd.
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
May 13, 2014 - 09:55am PT
all these old farts need a hug
group hug!! hugggzzzz
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 13, 2014 - 10:00am PT
No, but lobotomies might be in order....oops....nothing to lobotomize.
dirtbag

climber
May 13, 2014 - 10:06am PT
Benghazzzzzzzz...zzzzzzzzzz...zzzzzzzzzz...zzzzzz...zzz...ziii...zzz
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 13, 2014 - 10:10am PT
I want to be on the side of the anti-government militia member!
Repub's should run on the Oath Keepers platform!
Oath Keepers provide security at the convention!
Burns Brigade the color guard!
Victory in 2016. - someone find David Duke!
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
May 13, 2014 - 10:10am PT
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 13, 2014 - 10:21am PT
I wanna hear more about Vince Foster. Ron, please fill us in.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 13, 2014 - 10:43am PT
I stood up for what was right and paid the price. Why should there BE a price to pay for doing what is RIGHT???

Well, for one thing, he wasn't standing up for what's right. He was standing up for a thief. That does make a difference.

And BTW, there's often a price to be paid for doing what's right.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 13, 2014 - 10:49am PT
Ron won't answer stupid questions he's to busy giving stupid answers.

The guns are for killing American citizens that the dumb as sh#t "sovereign citizens" have deemed enemy combatants. That and for making up for an otherwise diminished manhood.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 13, 2014 - 10:56am PT
So Ron is Bundy a common criminal?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 13, 2014 - 11:07am PT
So Rongie when (not if) one of the weapons you've gleefully sold ends up being used to shoot and kill an innocent BLM employee driving home to his wife and kids will you blame Eric Holder or Hillary Clinton?
Did you get a chubby when the masked "patriRATS" threatened the BLM employee with guns and a sign reading "You need to die"? Is this what you are promoting? Is this repesenting your glorious revolution? If it is YOU are an Americunt!

I've got a present for you boi. Meet me behind the wood shed. Bring all the toys you want pissant it wont stop the epic bitch slapping you've earned.
Now go polish the hollow points Coward.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 13, 2014 - 11:15am PT
You can't love and enjoy the outdoors (especially the mountains) and also own a jeep

Come on man that is real weak sauce. It's not the owning of a Jeep (or any 4X4) that is the issue. Lots of Colorado climbers have 4X4s and use them wisely. The issue is the way so many JEEP/4X4 owners use them. I hope you can acknowledge that misused 4X4s cause a lot of destruction. It's a case of where the barrel of rotten fruits spoils it for the few good apples.
Not unlike the gun issue wouldn't you say?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 13, 2014 - 11:24am PT
Two words for JRig...
Reading comprehension.
Get sum.



[Image showing Giger's "Birth Machine"; wikipedia.org]

ps for the few who have devolved their life into polishing their snub noses this isn't really where babies come from. For that you'd need a girl. Good luck with that.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 13, 2014 - 11:47am PT
I know you disagree with my posts on guns but when it comes to having good reading comprehension,
Uh NO you don't!

Here is your post from just moments ago.
Im dramatic? What about philo? Or Ron?
Here is the post you must have been responding to.
Jebus H Bomz
climber
Peavine Basecamp
May 13, 2014 - 08:13am PT
He's a wee bit... dramatic, Dingus.
Ohmigod, look at them look at me! Ohmigod!
I'm glad he's found his role as a mouthpiece for the pelt master though.

I did not use the term dramatic. You ASSumed.



Why do you tightie whitie right wingers always ASSume any point of view you disagree with is a personal attack aimed directly at you. If I say the jerk offs at Bundy Bunker are phucked in the head to aim their piss ant pea shooters at American citizens doing their job for the BLM why do you think I am insulting or attacking you? Did I hurt your gun's feeling? Or are you camped out at the oCOWpie MOOvement KKKompound? That would explain a lot!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 13, 2014 - 11:59am PT
Oh I easily comprehended your back handed swipe at me but it came out of a misdirected defensiveness.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 13, 2014 - 12:05pm PT
So why should my comments about them insult you?
Honest question.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 13, 2014 - 01:47pm PT
You're good jonny.

It's not about all gun owners at all.

For me it's about old man Bundy, and his reactionary militia anti government gun toters that are scary.

It's their misled belief that they are somehow more American, or more patriotic, or know more about the constitution, and most especially that they are willing to draw a bead on federal officers for a guy who has already had NUMEROUS failures in court that is the problem.

To me, that's what is scary.

Then Ron climbs in here and says that there are a couple purple heart vets involved, for which I've seen no proof, as though that justifies the whole thing.

He's an ex-federal officer himself, who has become virulently anti-government, and then celebrates how many guns and how much ammo he's selling.

Yes, it's a great day to be an American, to see that the government didn't smear these guys off the face of the Earth, proves to me what a tolerant government we have.

Freedom of speech, you bet.

Freedom of assembly, no problem.

Freedom to militarize the camp of a guy who has broken our laws for 20 years? Nope.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 13, 2014 - 01:50pm PT
^^^^ Survival I couldn't have said it better myself.
Well maybe I could but at least now I don't have to try. LOL





Honest portion reply would be some bit of reaction to the general smearing of all gun owners as being related to these guys somehow.

I have tried to make a similar point to those who take swipes at me for my stance on gun control. They, through self imposed "guilt by association", think that decrying a gun nut means attacking them. Look at it this way if I decry a rogue bolter who retro bolts crack climbs that doesn't mean I am condemning all bolts or bolters.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 13, 2014 - 01:55pm PT
Great post Survival.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 13, 2014 - 02:05pm PT
^^^ Great timing Bob D.
It allows me to make a salient point.
Bob D and I have an earned mutual respect though we do not agree on everything.
Our perspectives on bolting are very different. Bob has put up hundreds of quality bolted routes that thousands of climbers enjoy. I have put up a hand full of spicy trad lines that no one wants to repeat (until they are retro bolted that is. LOL).
But Bob doesn't hate me or think I make blanket condemnations of all bolters or him in particular. And I don't think Bob D is a rogue bolt nut.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 13, 2014 - 02:06pm PT
Got It?
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
May 13, 2014 - 02:34pm PT
I've got a present for you boi. Meet me behind the wood shed. Bring all the toys you want pissant it wont stop the epic bitch slapping you've earned.

Philo, you liked Survival's comment a few posts above. Maybe you should compare it to your recent post about beating the sh#t out of Ron.

Maybe think more and post less.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 13, 2014 - 03:07pm PT
Dreljefe, Don't forget we need PatriRats like Rong.



Oh Look another anonymous coward speck of dust felt compelled to create another faux avatar to post one comment on a politurd thread.


Teutonic Guage

climber

May 13, 2014 - 11:25am PT
The Gauge of your teutonic case of extreme narcissistic personality disorder has been noted.

I'm surprised he didn't admonish every one for wasting their time.
Got Irony?

Why don't the lefties need to make multiple fake avatars?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 13, 2014 - 03:38pm PT
Why don't the lefties need to make multiple fake avatars?

Because we've got you covering for everybody Philo!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 13, 2014 - 03:42pm PT
Oh No looks like big trouble in StupidiStan.


[quote]
BLM chief: Lawbreakers in Bundy confrontation will be held accountable

Dave Bundy, right, son of rancher Cliven Bundy, talks with a Metro Police officer while trying to get the BLM to release his cattle from their impound corral near Bunkerville on April 12, 2014. (Jason Bean/Las Vegas Review-Journal)

Neil Kornze, Director, Bureau of Land Management. (Courtesy US Dept. of Interior)

An armed civilian waits nearby in some bushes as the Bundy family and their supporters gather together under the I-15 highway just outside of Bunkerville in order to confront the BLM and demand the release of their impounded cattle on April 12, 2014. (Jason Bean/Las Vegas Review-Journal)

The Bundy family and their supporters gather together under the I-15 highway just outside of Bunkerville in order to confront the BLM and demand the release of their impounded cattle on April 12, 2014. The BLM corral with the Bundy's cattle is located to the left, or west, of this scene. (Jason Bean/Las Vegas Review-Journal)

Mel Bundy, son of Cliven Bundy, takes a picture of a temporary closure sign on federal land 80 miles northeast of Las Vegas Tuesday, April 1, 2014. Cliven Bundy runs cattle on the land. The Bureau of Land Management has been closing off the Gold Butte area near Bunkerville in preparation to remove what they call "trespass cattle" that Bundy runs in the area. (John Locher/Las Vegas Review-Journal)

A Bureau of Land Management ranger stands guard at the entrance of a staging area near Mesquite on Saturday, April 5, 2014. The Bureau of Land Management has begun to round up what they call "trespass cattle" that rancher Cliven Bundy has been grazing in the Gold Butte area 80 miles northeast of Las Vegas. (John Locher/Las Vegas Review-Journal)

Federal law enforcement officers block a road at the Lake Mead National Recreation Area near Overton, Nev. Thursday, April 10, 2014. In the foreground are the shadows of protestors. Two people were detained while protesting the roundup of cattle owned by Cliven Bundy on the road. (John Locher/Las Vegas Review-Journal)

Arden Bundy, son of rancher Cliven Bundy, flies the American flag on a hill overlooking the protest site near Bunkerville on April 12, 2014. Moments before, the BLM agreed to cease the round up of the Bundy's cattle. (Jason Bean/Las Vegas Review-Journal)
The Bundy family and their supporters fly the American flag as their cattle were released by the BLM back onto public land outside of Bunkerville on April 12, 2014. (Jason Bean/Las Vegas Review-Journal)
By STEVE TETREAULT
STEPHENS WASHINGTON BUREAU
WASHINGTON — The director of the Bureau of Land Management said Monday that lawbreakers will be “held accountable” as the agency pursues a new plan to enforce court orders against Southern Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy for illegally grazing cattle on public land.

Agency head Neil Kornze said the BLM now plans to act through the courts after its attempt to round up trespassing cattle was scuttled last month by the threat of violence

“Some folks did break the law,” Kornze said. “We are working hard to ensure that those who did break the law are held accountable.”

Kornze’s comments on National Public Radio were his first since directing BLM wranglers and armed agents on April 12 to suspend the operation to seize Bundy cattle in the Gold Butte area of Clark County. They were consistent with written statements the BLM has issued since the confrontation that day with Bundy and armed supporters.

Now, Kornze said, “we are going to work through the legal system.” He said his comments had to be limited because an investigation is underway. Clark County Sheriff Doug Gillespie confirmed last week the FBI has opened a criminal probe of alleged threats and assaults on law enforcement officers at the roundup.

Kornze spoke carefully when asked about Bundy during a short discussion on the network’s “Diane Rehm Show.” He said the Nevadan’s case was an isolated one.

“The context is important,” Kornze said. “We have 16,000 ranchers across the country that work with the Bureau of Land Management and have permits to graze on the public land.” Bundy has been engaged in a 20-year permit dispute that culminated in court orders for his cows to be removed from the range.

The rancher says the BLM has been trying to take away his livelihood, and he does not recognize federal government jurisdiction on the land. Armed supporters congregated at Bundy’s ranch on the eve of the roundup, and some remain. Meanwhile, protests over federal land control spread to neighboring Utah over the weekend, when nearly 50 people demonstrated against the government by riding off-road vehicles on an off-limits trail.

On another topic, Kornze said the BLM was working closely with Western states in advance of decisions by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service whether to list the sage grouse, a chicken-sized range bird, as a threatened or endangered species.

Such a listing would lock up millions of acres, prompting fears that mining, ranching and energy exploration could be declared off-limits.

Kornze said there are instances where activities are allowed to take place alongside endangered species on public lands, with Fish and Wildlife Services playing a large role in determining what is permissible.

“It is possible to continue working even if there is a designation, but it will have an impact and it will make things more complicated,” Kornze said.

In central California, grazing is allowed on certain allotments that provide habitat for the endangered giant kangaroo rat, San Joaquin kit fox, the blunt-nosed leopard lizard and the San Joaquin wooly-threads, a rare flowering plant, according to the BLM. In southwestern Oregon, streams home to the threatened coho salmon are managed for multiple uses, the BLM said.

Contact Stephens Washington Bureau chief Steve Tetreault at 202-783-1760 or STetreault@stephensmedia.com Follow @STetreaultDC on Twitter


http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/bundy-blm/blm-chief-lawbreakers-bundy-confrontation-will-be-held-accountable[/quote]
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 13, 2014 - 03:49pm PT
So will somebody tell me why Obama, or whoever runs the government, is being
such a pussy about this? I mean, if this was a bunch of hippies in a park
they'd have been all over 'em, no? And it isn't like these wannabe Brown Shirts
are loyal taxpaying citizens, are they?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 13, 2014 - 03:54pm PT
I think it's because there's a lot of anti-gov-Obama fury already.

The hippies in the park won't start and armed insurgency if you slap a few of them. Notice how no one in the occupy movement was walking around with semi-autos?


Oooooo, don't tread on me! See? Guns really are the answer to your problems.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 13, 2014 - 04:08pm PT
Dammit Janet they closed some of the Flatirons to climbing for the annual birdy season again.
They aren't the boss of me! They can't tell what I can't do!
I'mma gunna take my Bazooker up there an tellem who's da boss now.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 13, 2014 - 04:24pm PT
So will somebody tell me why Obama, or whoever runs the government, is being
such a pussy about this? I mean, if this was a bunch of hippies in a park
they'd have been all over 'em, no? And it isn't like these wannabe Brown Shirts
are loyal taxpaying citizens, are they?

the wingnuts here are heavily armed, and not under any control. any one of them could go postal, and start firing. The result would undoubtedly be a significant killing of the "citizens".

No administration, R or D, wants to be in the position of killing citizens. The gov't has the power, the organization, and the law on it's side. The "citizens" can start the killing and create chaos. They have that power. The key is to take that power away from them...and it's not easy, when they are willing to ignore the law.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 13, 2014 - 04:26pm PT
The 'government' doesn't seem to have any qualms about killing citizens in
Los Angeles, Anaheim, Albuquerque, to mention a few cities. Hell, in those
places you don't even have to be armed!

What's the difference between looting a store in Watts and looting the public lands?
I'll tell you what, in Watts they send in the National Guard.
jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
May 13, 2014 - 04:33pm PT
Here for y,all,s entertainment i will offer my honest opinion of the moo-militia:

Those dudes out there honestly believe they,re fighting against a tyrannical govt. They clearly believe Bundy has some justifiable complaint against the govt and that BLM,s armed roundup is over the line, to the point they took up arms against govt employees doing their job. They additionally believe there are shady deals behind the scenes prompting this action against Bundy, therefore making this a case far above and beyond that of BLM vs delinquent cow-hand.

I dont believe it goes that far. I think they,re mistakenly backing a lost cause who just wont play by the rules. I dont believe the court system in which Bundy lost his ass is any part of a conspiracy to grab his deeded land, or that he has any more right to the federal land he,s claiming than any of the rest of us.

Is this to say it couldnt happen? No, there are plenty of shady things our govt does like NSA wire tapping of US citizens as one example. And not just at the fed level, but right down and through local and individual players.

However, these militia dudes have already taken the stance that this is far and above a cow thing, and to back down would show weakness and lack of resolve, besides admitting a mistake in backing Bundy. Kinda like me calling out Ron over the private gate to Little Valley. They arent likely to just back down now.

That doesnt make them right. Im not seeing any such sufficient evidence in their favor to think their stance is justifiable in this case. In fact i would challenge them to produce the actual court transcripts and evidence involved in Bundy,s previous cases, if not already available.

Im curious what will happen next, and whether they,ve considered this outcome as things cusrently stand. This could drag out interminably, the feds could seize Bundy,s assets, as well as those of militia members, they could pick off individual members and/or groups of members as they leave the area or thereafter, and prosecute them without ever firing a rhot, etc. There,s a range of possibilities and im not sure those ol, boys have completely thought it through, or the various repercussions of their acts.

Big shootout with the feds? Betcha a new push for gun control, and re-evaluation of militia groups across the board, which is likely going on. See, they call for scrutiny of the govt, but what scrutiny of their actions will they withstand? Not much. Are they open to internal discussion and dissent? If Rons response to any of the dissenting posts here is an indication I,d say not. Tow the party line or GTFO lest ye be thumped hard. Correct me if im wrong here, but isnt it hard to fight for freedom using dictatorial tactics?

This whole damn thing sounds like a bunch of passionate gung ho dudes trying to fight for what they think is good for the country but getting duped into backing the wrong guy and making a piss poor show of it to boot. Remember the california open-carry crowd? That thoroughly backfired in their self-righteous faces, and all they did was make a public spectacle of exercising their rights, which they subsequently lost. Great job.

Whether there are decorated purple heart vets there or not- how much difference does that make to the cause? Are they incapable of error? Are they above scrutiny? Huge thanks for their service, bravery, and sacrifice. That doesnt make them gods.

This thing isnt over yet. There will likely be long-term repercussions, and i struggle to see how any of them will be good. Not in a day and age where most changes to govt regulations and operating procedure tend in a more restrictive direction.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 13, 2014 - 04:35pm PT
Reilly you are sadly only too correct.
There is a real militarization of American law enforcement.
I credit this to blow back from the rabid nationalism after nineeleven that allowed the Shrub to implement disastrous policies. The worst of which is that in the eyes of LEOs we are now seen as guilty until proven innocent or dead. And there in lies the rub in that there really are significant issues of Government overreach and malfeasance not to mention a "shoot first aim later" attitude of militarized LEOs. But the armed insurrection advocated by Rong Co is only going to cause significant negative blow back. They will lose but we all will suffer.


JRig excellent post. I hope you don't mind me agreeing with you.
I'd go shooting with you any day so long as you pay for the ammo. :-)

I don't hate guns just their misuse.
Just like I don't hate the US military just it's misuse.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 13, 2014 - 04:47pm PT
Now we know what those kids in Ohio did wrong.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 13, 2014 - 04:50pm PT
Well he better bring his gun when he comes




'cause otherwise he be commin' up a-short.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 13, 2014 - 05:34pm PT

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 13, 2014 - 06:57pm PT
some whacko is going to start shooting.

Good, give 'em what they're looking for, and then some. They are right about
Obama being of a new world order, as opposed to their old world order. He
believes in rule of law, not the rule of the few laws they choose to honor.
If the 'lawless' citizens of Watts are worthy of a mobilization of the
National Guard then these wackos are more worthy in view of their firepower.
The National Guard still flies A-10's but if not then Apache gunships will do.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
May 13, 2014 - 06:58pm PT
best reply to the Sovrun Citzun nonsense I've seen is a fed judge in Washington, who wrote in his decision:

In a criminal case in 2013, the U.S. District Court for the Western District of Washington noted:

Defendant [Kenneth Wayne Leaming] is apparently a member of a group loosely styled “sovereign citizens.” The Court has deduced this from a number of Defendant’s peculiar habits. First, like Mr. Leaming, sovereign citizens are fascinated by capitalization. They appear to believe that capitalizing names has some sort of legal effect. For example, Defendant writes that “the REGISTERED FACTS appearing in the above Paragraph evidence the uncontroverted and uncontrovertible FACTS that the SLAVERY SYSTEMS operated in the names UNITED STATES, United States, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, and United States of America . . . are terminated nunc pro tunc by public policy, U.C.C. 1-103 . . . .” (Def.’s Mandatory Jud. Not. at 2.) He appears to believe that by capitalizing “United States,” he is referring to a different entity than the federal government. For better or for worse, it’s the same country.

Second, sovereign citizens, like Mr. Leaming, love grandiose legalese. “COMES NOW, Kenneth Wayne, born free to the family Leaming, [date of birth redacted], constituent to The People of the State of Washington constituted 1878 and admitted to the union 22 February 1889 by Act of Congress, a Man, “State of Body” competent to be a witness and having First Hand Knowledge of The FACTS . . . .” (Def.’s Mandatory Jud. Not. at 1.)

Third, Defendant evinces, like all sovereign citizens, a belief that the federal government is not real and that he does not have to follow the law. Thus, Defendant argues that as a result of the “REGISTERED FACTS,” the “states of body, persons, actors and other parties perpetuating the above captioned transaction(s) [i.e., the Court and prosecutors] are engaged . . . in acts of TREASON, and if unknowingly as victims of TREASON and FRAUD . . . .” (Def.’s Mandatory Jud. Not. at 2.)
The Court therefore feels some measure of responsibility to inform Defendant that all the fancy legal-sounding things he has read on the internet are make-believe
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 13, 2014 - 07:06pm PT
Militias in general are peopled by angry, underachieving people who feel disenfranchised. Ron's mention that two of Bundy's crowd possessed purple hearts changes things not a bit. There are plenty of veterans who got in the way of enemy fire who are not well functioning people. I remember a dude who got the medal of honor in Vietnam. He got back to New Jersey and supported himself for a year by selling Vietcong scalps he smuggled back to people in the local VFWs.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 13, 2014 - 07:06pm PT
Rong and the Bund-oids should do them selves a real favor and watch the videos of Putin's real soldiers driving armored vehicles through the compound walls of the Ukrain's real soldiers stationed in Crimea.
They just might be forced to conclude one of two things.
Either they should so fear the threat of tyranny from Obama and the Feds that they should all have a collective pants soiling while the still have the chance.
Or that their hyperbolic terror of Obama's tyranny is nothing more than a collective fantasy of their easily deluded minds.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 13, 2014 - 07:21pm PT
Hate is the fuel that keep their fire burning. It is all base on hate.
Sanskara

climber
May 13, 2014 - 07:31pm PT
Donini

Thank you for stating the obvious with regard to a topic and angle no one else was gonna touch..

fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
May 13, 2014 - 07:37pm PT
The 'government' doesn't seem to have any qualms about killing citizens in
Los Angeles, Anaheim, Albuquerque, to mention a few cities. Hell, in those
places you don't even have to be armed!

that wasn't the feds.

the thing about these militia 'protest' events is that they've had local law enforcement (sheriffs) sympathetic to their 'cause' and unwilling to enforce the law. they basically show up to make sure those idiots don't get suicidal and start some crap. we'll see what happens when that's not the case.
Sanskara

climber
May 13, 2014 - 08:34pm PT
Ron,

You live in a little insignificant sh#t hole bubble, it's called Utah and gun shop. It represents a very very small portion of the population of this country.

Maybe if you nut cases stepped outside your Mad Max doomsday seaker militia freaks show reality you would see just how spun out and f*#ked up you all are. But no instead you all gather around the same campfire and jerk each other off over the size of your guns and the new ATV you got in the back of you pickup.

What kinda person is so consumed with self defense they are trained in ten disciplines of martial arts brags about his gun collection and can top it all off with his ability to throw a knife and an axe. Really what kinda nut case grown man is preoccupied with such nonsense?

A f*#king mental case thats who...
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
May 13, 2014 - 08:40pm PT
good stuff

What the f*#k did you just f*#king say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the f*#k out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my f*#king words. You think you can get away with saying that sh#t to me over the Internet? Think again, f*#ker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re f*#king dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little sh#t. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your f*#king tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will sh#t fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re f*#king dead, kiddo.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 13, 2014 - 08:53pm PT
Wow Rong you sound like a bitchin dude. All that and an honorary member of the Oompa Loompa Clan too. And didn't you once claim you were on rescues in DahNang?
I can Phart on command.
Oh and I learned 24 ways to kill with common household vegatables.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 13, 2014 - 09:02pm PT
Perfection. Nevada, Utah, who cares. Perfection.


May 13, 2014 - 05:34pm PT
Ron,

You live in a little insignificant sh#t hole bubble, it's called Utah and gun shop. It represents a very very small portion of the population of this country.

Maybe if you nut cases stepped outside your Mad Max doomsday seaker militia freaks show reality you would see just how spun out and f*#ked up you all are. But no instead you all gather around the same campfire and jerk each other off over the size of your guns and the new ATV you got in the back of you pickup.

What kinda person is so consumed with self defense they are trained in ten disciplines of martial arts brags about his gun collection and can top it all off with his ability to throw a knife and an axe. Really what kinda nut case grown man is preoccupied with such nonsense?

A f*#king mental case thats who...
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 13, 2014 - 09:06pm PT
But I've only ever learned to bake biscuits.
Never learned howduh blastem biskits.


I wonder if RongO will back delete his posts again when he realizes what a putz he sounds like. Me I'm just rude, impolite and hateful..
Big phun.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 13, 2014 - 09:18pm PT
In my experience people touting their proficiency in the martial arts have not acquitted themselves well in actual fights.
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
May 13, 2014 - 09:20pm PT
But can they put a finger on the love button(s)?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 13, 2014 - 09:26pm PT
There are talkers and there are walkers in all different pursuits, the more macho the pursuit...the greater the divide between them.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 13, 2014 - 09:29pm PT
I may not have all the awards, accolades experience, and honoraria of Rong as he is just to bitchin' to hold a candle to.


Fortunately I can pfart on command so holding a candle to me could be a good thing..
I am highly trained and quite proficient in chemical, biological and incendiary weaponry.


What a gas.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 13, 2014 - 09:31pm PT
I can't believe I keep reading Ron's posts. I suppose because I believe he's not entirely whacko until
I am NOT "anti governement" but rather want government to act responsibly instead of forcefully and lying about it all the while..
Ron:
Your government (yes yours) behaved incredibly responsibly. Your government did not act forcefully except to temporarily stand their ground in the face of people disobeying lawful orders. Not a shot was fired. The only two people who got "injured" were in scuffles while not obeying LEOs.
What would you have done as an LEO it the same situation? Think about it.
Your government was irresponsible for not disarming the entire lot of them and hauling them off to jail for interfering with the lawful actions of a peace officer. You were an LEO you probably know the Fed citation #.
Nowhere in the Bundy case has your gov't lied. They may have gotten info wrong a couple of times in the heat of the confrontation.
Supporting those whackos makes you anti-government in thought if not in action.
You live in an alternate reality field which has made you paranoid and delusional. Get help. Seriously.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 13, 2014 - 09:32pm PT
Beans philo....beans. They are the new haute cuisine.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 13, 2014 - 09:33pm PT
Ron wrote: As far as philo of dungs idle threats, he couldnt beat his way out of a shyt sack. Meh is what i say to that. I have a black belt in Nippon Kempo Butokukon and was cross trained in Tai-kwon-do and ju -jitsu in my Leo training. Am also a crack shot with a multitude of weaponry. Proficient in knife and axe throws as well.




Do you walk on water?

What a whack job. You and your crew is what wrong with America, uniformed, egos the size of football field and filled with hate.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 13, 2014 - 09:36pm PT
No he walks on moldy remnants of Pillsbury Dough Boy.

Hey Ron I bet I can beat the living shet out of you at Jenga. :-)





Beans, beans, beans, beans, beans, beans, beans.
The magical fruit. Toot toot.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 13, 2014 - 09:39pm PT
Daniel Boone...fecking hilarious.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 13, 2014 - 09:45pm PT
If one could compile all the sundry claims RongO has made about himself one would have to conclude that he is the most interesting man in the world.
Stay thirsty my fiend.









Think Responsibly.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 13, 2014 - 10:46pm PT

As far as the question of jurisdiction,, just last year the ELdorado county sheriff was going to REVOKE USFS LEOS of their authority within Eldorado county CA...

Interesting. How did that work out?
dirtbag

climber
May 13, 2014 - 11:21pm PT
Dr. F posted this gem on the "Why are republicans dumfooks?" thread and it's too good not to post here.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 13, 2014 - 11:22pm PT
Bruce, RongO is too much of a coward to honestly admit that the guns and ammo are for murder and mayhem.
Let the good times roll.
dirtbag

climber
May 13, 2014 - 11:24pm PT
That, and penis compensation.
Sanskara

climber
May 13, 2014 - 11:25pm PT
He told us Bruce he intends to to kill anyone who does not see eye to eye with his wack job ideals.

Did you miss that whole rant where he threatened to hunt me down via my IP address and kill me and my family?

I didn't, got it saved as does the the rest of cyberspace idiot..

Guy just showed the whole world his hand. He is clearly every bit of the nut and threat to society we have all been thinking he is.

Speech is free till you start threatening people. You start threatening people in this country and you get handed your ass and land in jail.

Have fun with that phycho..
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 13, 2014 - 11:34pm PT
Ron should be behind bars. He's a psychotic ready to go. Just a matter of time.
Sanskara

climber
May 13, 2014 - 11:38pm PT
Johnny:

Yeah but when the whole forum calls him out for being nothing more than a delusional nut he tries to paint himself as normal and us as the problem. Pretty f*#king funny but in all reality pretty f*#king scary!

Say what you will. I clearly don't take things as far as Ron as Ron has threatened to harm me and my family. That's a whole nother level and that there is some crazy f*#ked up hillbilly shit!

Did you not read his response to me that he quickly deleted and then another poster copied and pasted.

Hello Mcfly wake the f*#k up!
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 13, 2014 - 11:56pm PT
Looks like the militia media didn't quite tell the whole story of El Dorado County:
Complaints about the conduct of U.S. Forest Service law enforcement officers have led El Dorado County Sheriff John D'Agostini to suspend their authority to enforce state laws in the county effective next month.

Sheriff's spokesman Lt. Tim Becker said he could not elaborate on the specific complaints, saying that the sheriff was handling them as he would a personnel matter.

He said the sheriff had received multiple complaints from citizens regarding the actions of U.S. Forest Service law enforcement officers in El Dorado County.

"He has been addressing these issues for many months with the USFS administration and feels that the issues have not been resolved to meet the standards that he requires of Sheriff's Office personnel," Becker said.

The California Penal Code states that officers of the U.S. Forest Service "have no authority to enforce California statutes without the written consent of the sheriff or chief of police in whose jurisdiction they are assigned"...

The sheriff's action does not affect the officers' authority to enforce federal laws.
http://www.sacbee.com/2013/06/27/5530046/el-dorado-county-sheriff-curtails.html

Ron's about as dangerous as Shirley McClain.

I always thought Shirley McClaine was VERY dangerous.
Sanskara

climber
May 13, 2014 - 11:59pm PT
How am I to know...

Got it saved.

The proper authorities have been contacted.

I don't trust that guy one bit why should I the way he talks the sh#t he talks about and the things he involves himself with..

Yeah nokay!
John M

climber
May 14, 2014 - 12:06am PT
Your full of shat sand skirt,

Could have been the fake ron.. can't tell now since the post was deleted.
S.Powers

Boulder climber
Joshua Tree, CA
May 14, 2014 - 12:09am PT
Ron, you know as well as I, it would take an act of congress to "strip" federal le authority from the forest service LEO's. The supremacy clause of the constitution forbids state law from overriding federal law. The sheriff was just grand standing for political gain.

I will ask that you not throw the rest of us under the bus, I appreciate the time you spent as a FS LEO, but the last thing we need is being attacked by one of our own. Please direct your anger to those responsible not the boots on the ground...

Thanks in advance.
S.Powers

Boulder climber
Joshua Tree, CA
May 14, 2014 - 12:13am PT
Furthermore, when a fed Leo is enforcing a state statute is almost always an adopted charge. When a forest service Leo writes a traffic ticket they us a CFR charge that makes it a federal infraction, states have no control over that. Also there is a USC code that adopts all state laws as federal law...
dirtbag

climber
May 14, 2014 - 12:16am PT
No, that doesn't sound like Ron.

There is a Ron imposter (an Anderposter).
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 14, 2014 - 12:19am PT
looks like people aren't reading the whole SacBee story.
The USFS had a written agreement with the Sheriff that they could write citations for State offenses occurring on USFS land. That's the agreement that's been canceled.
The Sheriff is not saying publicly what the citizens' beef is.
Harris said the letter was the first indication he had had of the sheriff's issues with Forest Service law enforcement personnel. These are not rangers, but "uniformed patrol officers with a badge and a gun," he said.

In the forest, they enforce laws regarding fire, timber and other forest products, fish and wildlife, protection of property and disorderly conduct. The federal laws they enforce typically pertain to property crimes and protection of natural resources, while the state and local laws deal with crimes against people, Harris said.
More whackos complaining about the Big Bad Feds?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 01:03am PT
Nor do we see him doing any of the grand things he claims.
But at least he has you to cup his ball-less sack.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 01:08am PT
You're the one playing Sean Hannity to Rong's Cliven Bundy act.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
May 14, 2014 - 01:11am PT
Rons tactic here seems pretty clear. Argue on the internet for armed confrontation with federal officers then sit safely behind a counter selling those that he has convinced the means to go do it. If those people die then justify more gun sales with their martyred bodies as advertising. Why is Ron running off to the shooting range when actual Patriots are fighting the good fight just miles from him in his own state?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 01:13am PT
Why is Ron running off to the shooting range when actual Patriots are fighting the good fight just miles from him in his own state?
Because clay pigeons don't shoot back.


Having met Ron i can only say i dont think he intends to shoot anyone exception being if his life is iminently threatened.
Tell that to the Pillsbury Dough Boy.


Ron lives in a state of constant delusional hyper-paranoia.
That is in and of it's self dangerous.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 14, 2014 - 08:47am PT
Let me get this right, Ron backs a criminal (Bundy), backs the folks who pointed guns at LEO, has a very negative obsession with our current president/Harry Reid...etc, brags about selling guns and ammo and Johnnyrig feels sorry for him because we are picking on him.


OK.


DMT...what are doing up so early?
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 14, 2014 - 09:20am PT
C'mon, ya gotta admit jonny has a point...

Basically, ya wanta go climbing? Great! If i can get the day or an afternon free, love to go. I,ll bring beer or coke and doritos. You like guns, great, maybe we,l pop some targets. You hate guns, no problem, i,l leave em home. If you can avoid calling me scum for o ning them we oughta have a good time n the rock.
Ok bye.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
May 14, 2014 - 09:39am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 09:57am PT
You like Molotov cocktails we can lob some back.



I don't believe I ever called Jrig scum either.
I have called the scum who take arsenals into schools and theaters scum.
Why any responsible legal gun owner would personalize that is beyond me.

I have virulently opposed the posters who in the aftermath of tragedies like Sandy Hook go off on semantic tangents and blanket defenses of guns then converse about what guns and what bullets would have been preferable.
That behavior is scummy.

I don't call someone scum just because they own a gun.
But when a poster is more in sensed about the mis use of the term automatic weapon or assault rifle than they are about 20 slaughtered children then I have a problem with that.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 14, 2014 - 10:05am PT
Too funny...

The life of an ever-vigilant anti-government armed patriot is hard. And by hard, I mean dull and unproductive. Also, not very profitable. Maybe that's why all those guys hanging out cleaning their guns in Nevada are now begging hard-working Americans to please give them some money.

One enterprising ranch defender needs funds so badly, he's taken to GoFundMe:

To all American Patriots:

I am the Team Leader that took Charlie Delta, the black marine, out to Nevada along with two other volunteers that all did an outstanding job at the Bundy Ranch. I understand most of you have come to know Charlie Delta through his expressed views on Cliven Bundy and the good we are all doing as patriots at the ranch. I am coming to you tonight humbly asking for your help. We may be the front line soldiers facing down an overbearing govt bureaucracy, but we are first off family men and women that have our own homes and jobs and families left behind to take on this endeavor. Therefore we have spent our fortunes for freedom and love of our fellow man and need your help to continue our efforts to keep all Americans free from tyranny. Please if you can spare even a few dollars for food, fuel and supplies to continue the stand against tyranny and an overbearing governtment [sic] please help. Even the smallext amount will help keep up the pressure to return this land to the people. I thank you all sincerely for your contribution.

Christopher E Ferrell

United we stand! Divided we fall!
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
May 14, 2014 - 10:17am PT
"We may be the front line soldiers facing down an overbearing govt bureaucracy, but we are first off family men and women that have our own homes and jobs and families left behind to take on this endeavor."


Scary, they really believe they are at war. Off the wall crazy.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 10:32am PT
Not to mention they "spent their fortunes on freedom.

How many rainy day penny jars and kid's piggy banks was that?





He forgot to mention they were running low on white sheets.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
May 14, 2014 - 10:41am PT
I,ll bring coke and doritos

Should be a good time.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 10:50am PT
And what are my guns for? Well they are for shooting targets, birds, animals- that i enjoy eating- giving me a pure form of protein not injected with this that or the other. They are also for defense of myself, friends, family and anyone else i encounter that may be being threatened with like lethal force or means. I saw the word murderer used upthread by one of the squealers- laughable at best. I have NEVER murdered anyone. But i have shot in self defense and was ruled a justifiable homicide via self defense in the performance of official duties..Thats what my guns are for. That is also why i sell so many, as a great part of this country feels the same way.



I have NEVER murdered anyone. But i have shot in self defense and was ruled a justifiable homicide via self defense in the performance of official duties.

Most excellent. Hey I didn't know Pillsbury took you to court. Go get em killa.


So how will you feel if an LEO in performance of "official duties" spackles the desert with Bundy brains (admittedly a small spackle job) will you concur with a "justifiable homicide" verdict?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 14, 2014 - 10:52am PT
I'll be in Boulder tomorrow and, as usual, there will be a few unfortunate people on street corners asking for spare change.....disenfranchised and desperate like the Bundy clown militia but at least they're not trying to bring down the world's oldest, freely elected, democracy.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 10:54am PT
Or beg for alms at gun point.

Here is an IRONY Ron.
You are adamant about the "illegals" coming here. You insist they should follow the rule of law and procedure But you whole heartedly support the illegal procedure and contempt of the rule of law when it comes to an illegal grazer.
What would you think if the "illegals" came in armed hoards and said "This is OURS!" We don't recognize the US Gubmint"?

Got Hypocrisy? .

and you philo,,,were on of the RUBES that actually bought that yarn,, hook line and sinker.

WTF are you babbling about. What hook line and sinker am I supposed to have bought?
Your ASSumption on my views? idjit

I also see the hypocrisy of groups and or people asking for donations to help their cause. Right here in this very forum i have donated to many an ailing climber. Climbers who for the most DIDNT cover themselves for that "long ride" and circumstance turned on them. But instead of tongue lashing them for the obvious, i accepted their plight, realized circumstance and acted with kindness and cari

How many of those folks were holding the forum hostage at gun point?
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
May 14, 2014 - 11:00am PT
So Bundy isn't paying his ranch hands? Prolly no medical or pension either. An abusive employer. Do the union organizers know about this exploitation?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 11:07am PT
No Rong you simpleton I understood your dramatization perfectly.
I just enjoy teasing you about being the big bad scared of a biscuit boi.

I have never found the need to kill a pastry.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 11:10am PT
Don't you know Ron has done everything. He even once founded an orphanage for homeless penguins in the Arctic.

And that earned him the coveted honorary membership to the Wherethefuqarewe tribe.
He's very proud of that achievement. But you know Ron he is sooooooo humble he doesn't talk about it much.


Stand yer ground Rong the Croissants are almost ready.
WBraun

climber
May 14, 2014 - 11:14am PT
Philo hard at work


No Rong no Rong no Rong No Rong no Rong no Rong No Rong no Rong no Rong

OMG Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong

Yowza !!!! Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong OMG !!!! Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 11:17am PT
Just as i imagined him
Imagined or wanted? Remember you imagined Messener was the most influential American climber of the 20th Century because as you stated that's the way you wanted it.







Yes QuackMan Rong is on my sh#t list radar.
Why is that a problem for you?
Your time is valuable isn't it?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 11:28am PT
Yea sure Rong but you also went on a anti-gubmint tirade then said you sell guns and bullets to lots of people who feel the same.
Same as what? Skeet shooting or anarchy?
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
May 14, 2014 - 11:31am PT
The exploitation of the peoples planet, is not limited to land.

Some "aquarium collectors" despoiling the coral reef, have attempted to kill SCUBA divers now.



http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/25497853/scuba-diving-assault-caught-on-camera-off-kona-coast

Umberger and the others were documenting damage to coral reefs when they came across the pair of divers who clearly didn't want their picture taken. She credits her experience and more than 10,000 dives with saving her life.

"An inexperienced diver would likely panic. Either panic from the stress of the situation and shoot for the surface. They may panic because their air source is missing and they can't find it. Any of those things causes a diver to shoot for the surface and those incidents often lead to death," said Umberger. "Never in a million years. Never in a million years did I think that someone would attack like that, especially from such a distance. It's not like we were close up or in their face."


philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 11:32am PT
Just a little heads up warning, Real bullets and Real shooting wounds are not like video games. There is no reset button.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 11:50am PT
No we are saying that you phucking ignorant TeaPublicans should have stood up to the Shrub like we did if you want your current psycobabble to have any legitimacy. Instead you Americunts stood up against our peaceful anti-war and anti-gov overeach protests. Nary a word of disapproval during the oh so patridiotic Shrub regime.

Oh but now the brain trust at FOX have you convinced that Obama is ___ fill in the blank with any BS that Karl Rove tells you you Koch sucker.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 14, 2014 - 11:52am PT
Of course, I have a 7" katana at my bedside for stabbing my wife and baby.

so. it's actually a 3" swiss army knife?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 14, 2014 - 11:55am PT
haha it'll be scarred for life. congrats I think.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
May 14, 2014 - 11:59am PT
That means if im downtown, late at night and see someone attempting to rape or rob and murder someone else, they will be shot by my gun. That means if some SOB illegal gang member comes up to me in a threatening manner, he will be shot by my gun.

You are a delusional and dangerous individual.

Apparently you believe the gun fires itself, and that you can simply kill someone because you believe, in your little pea brain, that they MIGHT be doing something. Judge, jury and executioner. And then in the next breath you'll gurgle some bullshit about "tyranny" without a trace of irony.

Late a night, you encounter some rough sex in the park and BLAM...but he was rapin her! I seen it with my own eyes! Besides, ma gun shot him, not me.

Walkin through the hood, "hey esse, give me a smoke?" BLAM! That thar wetback was menancin and a threatenin me. "Hey holmes call the ambulance I'm dyin, all I was asking for was a smoke, pendejo loco"

You whackadoodle shitstains need to be carted off to a compound..maybe a FEMA camp, with the rest of your ilk and just stand back until one of you Freedumb lovin Patriots who deny the legitimacy of the govt of the country you claim to pe Patriots of, starts the shooting. Then you can kill each other off and leave the rest of us, the moderately sane people, alone.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
May 14, 2014 - 12:02pm PT
"Hey holmes call the ambulance I'm dyin, all I was asking for was a smoke, pendejo loco"



Smoking kills. If you don't smoke, don't start.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
May 14, 2014 - 12:03pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 12:03pm PT

May 14, 2014 - 09:02am PT
"Hey holmes call the ambulance I'm dyin, all I was asking for was a smoke, pendejo loco"
Smoking kills. If you don't smoke, don't start.

So killing him would be sovereign citizen's version of preventative health care?
That's so very compassionate of them.
Sanskara

climber
May 14, 2014 - 12:16pm PT
See I'm not alone,

Phil and Bruce are not the only others who think you are bat sh#t crazy!

I could keep pointing out all the others on the forum that think your nuts. The list is longer than that of the list that comes to your defense fact.

The same 3-5 people come outa the wood work claiming you are not a bad guy blah blah blah. The thing is any and all of those people are clearly gun owners one step away from joining a militia them self. Add to the list closeted bigots homophobes and sexist pigs and no wonder they are so eager to rush to your defense.

Your all a dying breed you had best stick together or you might get trampled. Oh that's right you are getting trampled...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_the_United_States

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act

And the kicker

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage








skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
May 14, 2014 - 12:18pm PT
She was almost raped one night in her old apartment building - had nothing to protect herself with. Planning is important.


Mace. Get mace and training. Still need training. My daughter's got mace. What can I say...THIS is the hottest thread right now and I felt left out!




If you're carrying, training is an absolute nessessity. I'd say at first at least 2 times a week at first, then once a week after. Training will help with the judgement, but the wild card is still personal judgement. People will make mistakes and people will die because of this. Just human nature.


Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
May 14, 2014 - 12:21pm PT
I don't have a bald spot.

Still in the first phase of grieving I see.
The anger and bargaining phase should be a hoot. Especially if they overlap..."F@#% YOU! I am NOT paying $35 for a bottle of @#%$#^ rogaine!"

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 14, 2014 - 12:24pm PT
I hope you guys are using protection.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 12:26pm PT
Why do you tighty whity rightwingers love sucking down Karl Rove's Koch sauce?
Does it taste like freedom or rancid chicken?

Nevada Senator Harry Reid is under attack not because of wrong doing but because of right doing.
He directly opposes the influence the Kochs wield over the political process.
And that unleashes the Billionaire's smear campaign.
And the tighty whitys suck it up to their own detriment and eventual demise.


Ron look into who forced the provisions you disagree with.
Notice how the names all have a big R to indicate political affiliation.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 12:35pm PT
Wow that was weird.


Your woman would leave you for hair loss.
That's a stable and loving relationship.
You should tell her you'd leave her for incontinence.
That ought to piss her off..
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 14, 2014 - 12:37pm PT
It's probably better to have Rifleman Ron out in the light of day rather than lurking in some dark bunker plotting. Although, he could be doing both.

Imagine the horror of a life whipped up by the fear & loathing of the NRA. The talk-yakkers make their fortunes off of angry, old, white men like Ron. Listen to him spouting the latest Benghazi bs.."lied to about a video", omg, let's have a revolution - they changed the talking points!!! What a riot. Sad.

Frickin Cheney lied every time he open his mouth and Ron probably went about his business. Thousands dead in Iraq over non-existent WMD, no big deal...hey, let's talk about the 4 dead in Libya. Bush could kill off 4 every day before Ron spewed his coffee all over his copy of the American Rifleman.

Ron's the Base, the right-wing base. Unfortunately, there are a lot like him. Easily manipulated, easily provoked, easily misled.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 12:40pm PT




skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
May 14, 2014 - 12:42pm PT
I bet this thread goes above #5265 today. If this thread was the DOW, I'd be putting all my money into it for the time being. Sizzling baby!
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 14, 2014 - 12:49pm PT
Philo, Reagan and Bush were white. Obama is not. The ferocity of Obama Derangement Syndrome is rooted in racism, as Cliven Bundy demonstrated.
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
May 14, 2014 - 12:53pm PT
Oh well.....so much for reverse psychology.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 12:56pm PT
No Ron we didn't miss your too little, too late post above what we missed was your outrage of the much worse abuses of the white guys when they were POTUS.
You are a hypocrite suffering from misdirected outrage.
But it's OK 'cause your armed.
neversummer

climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
May 14, 2014 - 12:59pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 12:59pm PT
Don't forget the free "Water the Tree of Liberty" T shirts with every purchase of an assault rifle or high capacity magazine. You are pedaling death and sedition. Oh and have a phukd day ya pissant traitor.
.Neversummer that is a really disturbing video.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 14, 2014 - 01:02pm PT
Ron, you must recognize that we are a nation of laws. Bundy thinks he's above the law - hell, he doesn't recognize the federal government.

You have the right to vote however you want. But when you start supporting armed revolution because you don't like the laws you demonstrate that you have gone off the deep end. That's gun counter nonsense and somehow I think you must know it.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
May 14, 2014 - 01:17pm PT
while those in washington run free and easy over committing crimes like eric holder and lois lerner being in contempt of congress


So both have been convicted of these crimes already?

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 01:26pm PT
So both have been convicted of these crimes already?

They have in Rong's mind. Remember he is the self imposed Judge, Jury and Executioner.
He has the body count already, notches on his gun butt to prove it
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
May 14, 2014 - 01:29pm PT
No, they haven't been convicted, nor will they be.

Because under the Republican's favorite doctrine, the "Unitary Executive" (used extensively by the Bush/Cheney junta to justify everything under the sun), Congress cannot compel the executive branch to perform actions. And the US Attorneys are Exec branch.

The backing for that comes from Federalist 49 IIRC. In any case, not going to happen. Congress can hold all the little showboat contemp hearings it wants, and the end effect will be Holder giving them the double middle fingers...as they, especially alleged car thief and posturing clown Darrell Issa, deserve.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
May 14, 2014 - 01:31pm PT
philo, he has all that law inforcement savy that backs up all the doubletalk accusations about our government.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
May 14, 2014 - 01:38pm PT
Call the Cops at Your Peril by Paul Craig Roberts

“Live free or die” is the motto of the state of New Hampshire. I hope the residents are prepared to die, because living free is not what they do. NH is merely a cog within the Amerikan Stasi State, but I am referring to what goes on within NH itself, not the police state existence imposed by Washington. On May 5 attorney William Baer was arrested at a school board meeting at which he went over a 2-minute speaking rule while trying to get some explanation from the Gilford, NH, school board for assigning sexually explicit reading material to his 14-year old daughter’s English class. The evasiveness of the school board angered Mr. Baer, and he spoke out again in support of another parents protests, and was promptly arrested by a goon thug cop.
http://www.dailypaul.com/318393/fox-news-to-interview-william-baer-father-arrested-in-new-hampshire-for-going-over-two-minute-rule-in-school-board-meetin
The school board chairman, Sue Allen, who has no legislative power nevertheless managed to create a law backed by police violence. After all if Bush and Obama can create laws by edict, why not a school board chairman? Under Allen’s edict, if a parent violates the 2-minute rule that Allen imposed, she has the parent arrested. The goon thug cop wasn’t embarrassed to arrest a parent for making a legitimate complaint during the public comment period of a school board meeting.

Remember, we “freedom and democracy” Americans have free speech and protest rights. Actually, don’t remember that, because you no longer have any such rights. These rights are dangerous. They enable terrorists and extremists such as those dangerous people who don’t believe The Government.
This is Amerika today. Mr Baer offered no resistance, but nevertheless was lucky that the goon thug cop did not taser him, pepper spray him, and call for a backup SWAT team to beat him senseless or even murder him.

Last month wedding guests at at the San Luis Hotel in Galveston, Texas, were set upon without reason by 34 crazed goon thug cops. The guests, including the father of the bride and the bride’s brother were brutally beaten and maced along with many guests including 13 who were arrested for asking, “what is going on?” The brother was so badly injured by the goon thugs that he had to be rushed via helicopter to a hospital. The mayhem resulted from an off-duty goon thug witnessing a guest walk outside with an alcoholic beverage, thus violating the city’s “open container” law. Instead of advising the guest of the open container law and recommending that he step back inside, the goon thug called the cops who arrived on the scene in mass and enjoyed themselves by beating up the wedding party.
http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/galveston-wedding-beatdown/
No charges have been filed against the goon thugs for gratuitously beating up wedding guests. The right of cops to beat and murder the citizens who pay their salaries is now a perk of the job. It is necessary in order to keep us safe from criminals and terrorists, descriptions that are ever expanding.

Don’t expect courts to put any restraint on police and prosecutors. Dave Lindorff and Molly Knefel have given accurate accounts of the frame-up of Cecily McMillan by a corrupt prosecutor and a corrupt goon thug. McMillan was convicted on the false charge of assaulting a police office when the goon thug seized her breasts from behind. The judge, Ronald Zwiebel, enabled the conviction by preventing the defense from showing the evidence. The gullible and very stupid jurors made certain that injustice was perpetrated. Now a young woman who was sexually assaulted faces a seven-year prison sentence for “assaulting” a goon thug. http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article38424.htm
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/05/07/kangaroo-court-convicts-occupy-protester/

This is Stasi Amerika today. And it gets worse. In Aliquippa, Pennsylvania, Eileen Battisti, a 53-year old widow, had her $280,000 home seized by Beaver County officials and sold at auction for $116,000 because of an unpaid $6.30 interest fee on the late payment of her school district taxes. A corrupt judge did not insist upon justice for the widow but instead upheld the robbery that benefitted both the county and the purchaser at auction of her home, S.P. Lewis. Lewis offered to sell the widow her home back for $250,000. http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/eileen-battisti/

To see what cops are really like, read this: http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/justice-for-arzy/

Whatever you do, never call the cops. However bad you might think the situation is, it will be much worse once the goon thugs arrive: http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/candy-middleton/

And do not show any compassion for animals. Showing compassion for animals is proof that you are an animal-rights extremist which lumps you in with terrorists. In Albion, Michigan, extremists who feed a stray cat are fined and locked away for three months. Mary Musselman, an 81-year old Alzheimer sufferer was locked away for 90 days for feeding stray cats on her own property. When you see a starving animal, turn your back and walk away. Your inhumanity will be rewarded but your humanity will be severely punished. http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/albion-michigan-cat-feeding/

Just keep in mind that “we have freedom and democracy” and we are “the exceptional and indispensable people.” Our president told us so. This designation removes you from any responsibility to other humans, much less animals. Don’t lose sight of the fact that Amerikans are so exceptional and indispensable that we have murdered seven entire countries in the new 21st century, and we are just getting started. As it is perfectly acceptable for Amerika to murder countries, how can it possibly matter if a goon thug cop murders you, your pet or your wife or husband or daughter or son?

What is so discouraging is that this article could be hundreds of thousands of pages long. I could sit here writing this article for the rest of my life, adding one incident after another, and not get beyond the tip of the iceberg. The inhumanity of which Americans are capable and indulge in every day must scare Satan himself.

Parents arrested for protesting the assignment of pornographic reading material to 14-year olds by school boards, elderly and ill people imprisoned for feeding starving animals, pets murdered by police who are supposed to protect the citizens but instead mace them, beat them, body slam them, and shoot them and their pets gratuitously for the thrill of committing violence against life are the reason the public sector is in disrepute.

The worst people in the country are in our public institutions. This is why there is so little sympathy for the public sector unions now under attack by the Republicans. Americans look at their county commissions, their city councils, their criminal justice (sic) system, their governors, state legislatures, Congress, and the White House, and all that they see is evil and corruption. There is nothing else there.

Americans who trust the criminal justice (sic) system are completely stupid. A case of mass wrongful conviction that I wrote about years ago finally came to trial last November. Annie Dookham, a Massachusetts state chemist who falsified drug tests, thus sentencing thousands of innocent people to years in prison, destroying their lives and the lives of their families, was sentenced to 3 to 5 years in prison. Dookhan sent thousands of innocents to prison in order to aid prosecutors in attaining high conviction rates and in order to achieve her own rise as a highly productive state employee. The judge noted that Dookham had cost the state millions of dollars in settling wrongful convictions and had shaken to the core the integrity of the criminal justice (sic) system. http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/2013/11/22/annie-dookhan-former-state-chemist-who-mishandled-drug-evidence-agrees-plead-guilty/lhg1mwd9U3J8eh4tNBS63N/story.html
State officials say that Dookhan’s fake evidence could have tainted 40,000 cases. Ask yourself, what kind of person would destroy so many people in order to advance herself? And progressives think that the public sector is the answer.

You can ask the same question about the New York State Police and the Texas police who dropped little bags of ground up wallboard in cars stopped at random, conducted illegal searches, and arrested the occupants for drugs. Hundreds of innocents were convicted until finally one brave public defender demanded presentation of the alleged drugs and had the evidence tested. It came back: wallboard. All other public defenders had accommodated the conviction scheme and arranged plea bargains for their clients. You can read about these and other atrocities in my book, coauthored with Larry Stratton: The Tyranny of Good Intentions.
It only gets worse:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article38446.htm

Psychopaths and bullies are naturally attracted to the police by the privilege of using essentially unaccountable force. The proclivity to violence is heightened by police training. The emphasis is on killing suspects, not on capturing them. CBS Miami reports that 23 goon thugs fired
377 rounds at two men trapped inside a car. http://miami.cbslocal.com/2014/05/06/police-shooting-frenzy-raises-concerns/

On May 8 a goon thug in Hearne, Texas murdered 93-year old Pearlie Golden. The elderly woman was shot five times in her front yard. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/texas-shoots-death-93-year-old-woman-answering-911-complaint-article-1.1783289
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 14, 2014 - 01:51pm PT
Ron
you've got 10X as many perceived enemies as anyone else I know.
You're also more gullible than anyone I know.
Recently a GOVT drone nearly caused a collision with a jet liner in Florida, but as we have seen, NO ONE is taking the credit for that drone.
There isn't any reputable statement on whose drone it was. Do you think any private person would take the credit for that drone? Do you think the Feds would be so stupid as to have a drone that looked like an F4 flying near regular flight paths?
I don't know where you get your horses**t and I'm not going to go looking for it. Next time you make an idiotic claim, cite a reference to back it up.
Get a grip lad!
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
May 14, 2014 - 02:07pm PT
Call the Cops at Your Peril by Paul Craig Roberts

“Live free or die” is the motto of the state of New Hampshire. I hope the residents are prepared to die, because living free is not what they do. NH is merely a cog within the Amerikan Stasi State, but I am referring to what goes on within NH itself, not the police state existence imposed by Washington. On May 5 attorney William Baer was arrested at a school board meeting at which he went over a 2-minute speaking rule while trying to get some explanation from the Gilford, NH, school board for assigning sexually explicit reading material to his 14-year old daughter’s English class. The evasiveness of the school board angered Mr. Baer, and he spoke out again in support of another parents protests, and was promptly arrested by a goon thug cop.
http://www.dailypaul.com/318393/fox-news-to-interview-william-baer-father-arrested-in-new-hampshire-for-going-over-two-minute-rule-in-school-board-meetin
The school board chairman, Sue Allen, who has no legislative power nevertheless managed to create a law backed by police violence. After all if Bush and Obama can create laws by edict, why not a school board chairman? Under Allen’s edict, if a parent violates the 2-minute rule that Allen imposed, she has the parent arrested. The goon thug cop wasn’t embarrassed to arrest a parent for making a legitimate complaint during the public comment period of a school board meeting.

Remember, we “freedom and democracy” Americans have free speech and protest rights. Actually, don’t remember that, because you no longer have any such rights. These rights are dangerous. They enable terrorists and extremists such as those dangerous people who don’t believe The Government.
This is Amerika today. Mr Baer offered no resistance, but nevertheless was lucky that the goon thug cop did not taser him, pepper spray him, and call for a backup SWAT team to beat him senseless or even murder him.

Last month wedding guests at at the San Luis Hotel in Galveston, Texas, were set upon without reason by 34 crazed goon thug cops. The guests, including the father of the bride and the bride’s brother were brutally beaten and maced along with many guests including 13 who were arrested for asking, “what is going on?” The brother was so badly injured by the goon thugs that he had to be rushed via helicopter to a hospital. The mayhem resulted from an off-duty goon thug witnessing a guest walk outside with an alcoholic beverage, thus violating the city’s “open container” law. Instead of advising the guest of the open container law and recommending that he step back inside, the goon thug called the cops who arrived on the scene in mass and enjoyed themselves by beating up the wedding party.
http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/galveston-wedding-beatdown/
No charges have been filed against the goon thugs for gratuitously beating up wedding guests. The right of cops to beat and murder the citizens who pay their salaries is now a perk of the job. It is necessary in order to keep us safe from criminals and terrorists, descriptions that are ever expanding.

Don’t expect courts to put any restraint on police and prosecutors. Dave Lindorff and Molly Knefel have given accurate accounts of the frame-up of Cecily McMillan by a corrupt prosecutor and a corrupt goon thug. McMillan was convicted on the false charge of assaulting a police office when the goon thug seized her breasts from behind. The judge, Ronald Zwiebel, enabled the conviction by preventing the defense from showing the evidence. The gullible and very stupid jurors made certain that injustice was perpetrated. Now a young woman who was sexually assaulted faces a seven-year prison sentence for “assaulting” a goon thug. http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article38424.htm
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/05/07/kangaroo-court-convicts-occupy-protester/

This is Stasi Amerika today. And it gets worse. In Aliquippa, Pennsylvania, Eileen Battisti, a 53-year old widow, had her $280,000 home seized by Beaver County officials and sold at auction for $116,000 because of an unpaid $6.30 interest fee on the late payment of her school district taxes. A corrupt judge did not insist upon justice for the widow but instead upheld the robbery that benefitted both the county and the purchaser at auction of her home, S.P. Lewis. Lewis offered to sell the widow her home back for $250,000. http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/eileen-battisti/

To see what cops are really like, read this: http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/justice-for-arzy/

Whatever you do, never call the cops. However bad you might think the situation is, it will be much worse once the goon thugs arrive: http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/candy-middleton/

And do not show any compassion for animals. Showing compassion for animals is proof that you are an animal-rights extremist which lumps you in with terrorists. In Albion, Michigan, extremists who feed a stray cat are fined and locked away for three months. Mary Musselman, an 81-year old Alzheimer sufferer was locked away for 90 days for feeding stray cats on her own property. When you see a starving animal, turn your back and walk away. Your inhumanity will be rewarded but your humanity will be severely punished. http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/albion-michigan-cat-feeding/

Just keep in mind that “we have freedom and democracy” and we are “the exceptional and indispensable people.” Our president told us so. This designation removes you from any responsibility to other humans, much less animals. Don’t lose sight of the fact that Amerikans are so exceptional and indispensable that we have murdered seven entire countries in the new 21st century, and we are just getting started. As it is perfectly acceptable for Amerika to murder countries, how can it possibly matter if a goon thug cop murders you, your pet or your wife or husband or daughter or son?

What is so discouraging is that this article could be hundreds of thousands of pages long. I could sit here writing this article for the rest of my life, adding one incident after another, and not get beyond the tip of the iceberg. The inhumanity of which Americans are capable and indulge in every day must scare Satan himself.

Parents arrested for protesting the assignment of pornographic reading material to 14-year olds by school boards, elderly and ill people imprisoned for feeding starving animals, pets murdered by police who are supposed to protect the citizens but instead mace them, beat them, body slam them, and shoot them and their pets gratuitously for the thrill of committing violence against life are the reason the public sector is in disrepute.

The worst people in the country are in our public institutions. This is why there is so little sympathy for the public sector unions now under attack by the Republicans. Americans look at their county commissions, their city councils, their criminal justice (sic) system, their governors, state legislatures, Congress, and the White House, and all that they see is evil and corruption. There is nothing else there.

Americans who trust the criminal justice (sic) system are completely stupid. A case of mass wrongful conviction that I wrote about years ago finally came to trial last November. Annie Dookham, a Massachusetts state chemist who falsified drug tests, thus sentencing thousands of innocent people to years in prison, destroying their lives and the lives of their families, was sentenced to 3 to 5 years in prison. Dookhan sent thousands of innocents to prison in order to aid prosecutors in attaining high conviction rates and in order to achieve her own rise as a highly productive state employee. The judge noted that Dookham had cost the state millions of dollars in settling wrongful convictions and had shaken to the core the integrity of the criminal justice (sic) system. http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/2013/11/22/annie-dookhan-former-state-chemist-who-mishandled-drug-evidence-agrees-plead-guilty/lhg1mwd9U3J8eh4tNBS63N/story.html
State officials say that Dookhan’s fake evidence could have tainted 40,000 cases. Ask yourself, what kind of person would destroy so many people in order to advance herself? And progressives think that the public sector is the answer.

You can ask the same question about the New York State Police and the Texas police who dropped little bags of ground up wallboard in cars stopped at random, conducted illegal searches, and arrested the occupants for drugs. Hundreds of innocents were convicted until finally one brave public defender demanded presentation of the alleged drugs and had the evidence tested. It came back: wallboard. All other public defenders had accommodated the conviction scheme and arranged plea bargains for their clients. You can read about these and other atrocities in my book, coauthored with Larry Stratton: The Tyranny of Good Intentions.
It only gets worse:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article38446.htm

Psychopaths and bullies are naturally attracted to the police by the privilege of using essentially unaccountable force. The proclivity to violence is heightened by police training. The emphasis is on killing suspects, not on capturing them. CBS Miami reports that 23 goon thugs fired
377 rounds at two men trapped inside a car. http://miami.cbslocal.com/2014/05/06/police-shooting-frenzy-raises-concerns/

On May 8 a goon thug in Hearne, Texas murdered 93-year old Pearlie Golden. The elderly woman was shot five times in her front yard. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/texas-shoots-death-93-year-old-woman-answering-911-complaint-article-1.1783289



A very concise, one sided account of a partial reality.
No sense in producing both sides of a story. Though one or two may be somewhat accurate, it's main attribute is to stir frenzy in those that need hollow stories to feed their hate.



Psychopaths and bullies are naturally attracted to the police by the privilege of using essentially unaccountable force.

Funny how that got in there. Sounds familiar.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 02:18pm PT
Yea just look what happened to Mr. Poopy pants Turd Nugget from wallowing in sh#t.


philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 02:25pm PT
That and he finally got a real job.
Wonder if he will still collect food stamps and can they be used to by ammo.
You know for hunting food like clay skeets with the BLM logo and Obama's face on them
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
May 14, 2014 - 02:42pm PT
http://crappytaxidermy.com/

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 02:43pm PT
Mean while things are breaking down in Bunkerville.


Oh the Humanity!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 14, 2014 - 02:52pm PT
Paul Craig Roberts - now there is a guy who gets it right about seventy five percent of the time and then just can't stop as he turns around and shoots himself the other twenty five. Not the most consistent thinker out there and is always in the employ of folks who don't share his opinions.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 03:02pm PT
Antigovernment ‘Patriot’ Leader Vows to ‘Remove’ Pres. Obama from Office.

May 13, 2014 7:18 pm by: Omar Rivero Category:

http://www.occupydemocrats.com/watch-antigovernment-patriot-leader-vows-to-remove-pres-obama-from-office-this-friday/


In this new audio from Monday, retired Army Col. Harry Riley, the leader of Self-styled revolutionary antigovernment “patriots” group Operation American Spring, reveals his group’s to converge on Washington, D.C., this week with “10-30 million” extremists to “remove” President Barack Obama and disloyal lawmakers out of office.

“We are calling for the removal of Barack Obama, Joe Biden, Harry Reid, Mitch McConnell, John Boehner, Nancy Pelosi, and Eric Holder as a start toward constitutional restoration.They have all abandoned the US Constitution, are unworthy to be retained in a position that calls for servant status.”

Operation American Spring plans to forcefully replace government officials with a new “Constitutionalist” team that would “sponsor and pass very Constitutionally crafted State legislation to dissolve the size, powers, scope and spending of the U.S. Government by 2/3rds,” o, in other words, destroy the American government.

Col. Riley expects 10 million to 30 million like-minded antigovernment extremists to join them Friday in the nation’s capital for the “removal.”

Not surprisingly, they are planing a “sister event” the very same day in Bunkerville, Nevada, where Cliven Bundy is undergoing his battle against paying his evasion of grazing fees.

Organizers of the event also anticipate “incremental nullification” by state legislatures of “all withholding taxes, employment taxes, employer taxes, and income taxes.” In other words, they want to starve our government of financial resources.

Of course, Operation American Spring is being sponsored by the Koch Brother’s Tea Party.

Listen to the audio of the threats BELOW:




Well this ought to go well.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 14, 2014 - 03:12pm PT
Probably a flier for it at Rifleman Ron's gun 'n ammo store. Sure sounds like something Ron would say..

"It’s an honorable movement, it’s bathed in prayer. We’ve got a tab on our website where we’ve got a list of prayer warriors that are working every day in prayer for us. We’re bathed—it’s under God and we’re going to move up there and trust Him that it will work out because we believe it’s noble, it’s an honorable effort.

The facts I have, the documents I have say there’s 267 million armed citizens in the United States. We don’t want to get there, I’m sure you don’t because you’ve been probably in combat over in Iraq and the Middle East, that’s what we don’t want to do and that’s why we hope and pray that when we field 10-15 million people up there that that’s enough evidence for these boneheads in Washington D.C. to grasp our message, to grasp what we’re telling them that if they don’t do what we’re suggesting or what we’re demanding, then the next option is something that none of us want to see. Those of us that have been in a foxhole, we don’t want to see a violent condition erupt in our nation."
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 14, 2014 - 03:20pm PT
...prayer warriors...
Sigh, their poverty of facts is only exceeded by their self-righteousness...
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
May 14, 2014 - 03:23pm PT

Plus using their $$$$$ they have funded and developed with a few others taking 1,000,000 more to their already 270,000,000 facial recognition files.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 14, 2014 - 03:27pm PT
Prayer has been repeatedly shown to have no effect on the outcome of events. Dependence on prayer by a warrior is not conducive to a long lifespan.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 03:29pm PT
Well let's hope this retired army traitor prays a lot!
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
May 14, 2014 - 03:34pm PT
Meet our demands or we will kill you. True Americans.

I think we need to revoke citizenship for these nut cases and deport them to a more suitable country. Somalia comes to mind.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 14, 2014 - 03:36pm PT
Somalia has a beach, Sudan would be better.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 03:39pm PT
Problem is those countries don't want trouble makers.

I wonder if that Harry Col. dude is Revelatin' like 'Ol Cloven Blunder and his give me all the gubmint guns in one hour carney side show..
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
May 14, 2014 - 04:21pm PT
I think we need to revoke citizenship for these nut cases and deport them to a more suitable country.


Didn't we want to send them to Nigeria, a few pages back?
crankster

Trad climber
May 14, 2014 - 04:30pm PT
Virtually everything Rifleman Ron and his militia buddies fear is an illusion.

skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
May 14, 2014 - 06:02pm PT
SOMEONE has been deleting their posts and messing with my predictions about the # of posts at the end of today.
crankster

Trad climber
May 14, 2014 - 06:24pm PT
We'll get there...

This is #6 of "Orders We Will Not Obey" on the Oath Keepers website:

6. We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps.

Maybe Ron, a proud Oath Keeper (Burns Brigade, I think), can elaborate on exactly what prompted this dire addition to the OK's 10 Commandments.

I mean why not have 11? Something like: We will NOT obey any order to turn all children under age 6 into protein powder for smoothies.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
May 14, 2014 - 06:41pm PT
#47 We will NOT attain sufficient education to make distinctions between paranoid fever dreams peddled by Faux News propagandists and reality

#48 We will NOT allow some darkie Kenyan usurper to sully the sacred WHITE house.

I bet them oathkeeper nuts have all sorts of oaths.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 14, 2014 - 06:43pm PT
#12: We have a constitutional right to abort our educations after 9th grade. Everything taught in the higher grades is Socialist propaganda.

and the unlucky
#13 We will interpret the constitution any dammed way we please.

Elcap. great minds think alike.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
May 14, 2014 - 06:46pm PT
6. We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps.

That's good to know. Because the Obama/illuminati plan to enslave America is clearly dependent on armed militias blockading American cities and turning them into concentration camps. So maybe if these guys refuse to do that, other militias will also refuse.

Everybody knows that FEMA has ordered 450,000 plastic coffins, right? I mean, it's all over the web, so it must be true. But if the armed militias of fervent patriots stand up for what is right, then maybe those coffins won't ever be filled.

Am I getting this right?
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
May 14, 2014 - 08:12pm PT
These too


Hey! these guys will save you make sure you say you are not Gay.


One is a qualified Viet Nam veteran trained especially in guerrilla warfare he would have old US Army manuals that teach step by step techniques. Should be available at WalMart.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 08:21pm PT
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 14, 2014 - 08:38pm PT
I would have thought they would be all over blockading the cities to keep
all the cotton pickers and their sympathizers right where they want 'em
while they enjoy the Heartland of True Believers and Assorted Ilk.
WBraun

climber
May 14, 2014 - 08:49pm PT
OMG !!!!! supertopo's residents hard at work looking to see what Ron is doing.


OMG !!!! OMG !!!! where's Rong?????


Rong rong rong rong Rong rong rong rong Rong rong rong rong


Rolls eyes ......
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 09:27pm PT
If Ron doesn't like being the center of derision in the public stock of humiliation then maybe he should grow the phuck up and quit being such an arrogant prick.
WBraun

climber
May 14, 2014 - 09:28pm PT
Why should he even explain anything to you worm.

You're not worthy at all you disrespectful worm.

Just as you say he's disrespectful.

Thus mutual agreement between the two parties.

He's under no obligation to even so think about you even what to speak to you or respond .....

Meh .....
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 09:31pm PT
Quack meh baby eight to the bar.


As are we under no obligation to treat him like grandma.
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
May 14, 2014 - 09:36pm PT
Ron keeps coming back for more though.

Just like anyone if he doesn't like the thread he doesn't have to click on it. The fact that he does says something....maybe he digs the attention in some way I don't know but if it bothers him or you or anyone else then move on, right?

Sanskara

climber
May 14, 2014 - 09:47pm PT
Omg its like those coming to the defense of Donald Sterling. It makes one stop and go are you f*#king kidding you can't be for f*#king real.

Imop it's a pretty clear indicator into the true character of these people. A sane person would not come to the defense of Sterling or Ron anytime for any reason anywhere period...
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 09:48pm PT
I could have cared less when he was gone. I wouldn't care more if he left again.
It is when he is here cheerleading for anarchy that gets me miffed. The dudes as yseful as tits on a boar.
If you and very few others are so damned concerned for the little Koch Sucker then prehaps you should approach him with some gentle suggestion to modify his forum persona or STFU!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 09:50pm PT
Yes when they are being as#@&%es to bigger ones.

Look around Locker, look at the threads, climbing or otherwise, where I don't post negativity or act the ass. What do you suppose is the difference?

should you approach him? Well you sure as hell approached us meanie bullies didn't you.
Is it that even you realize that you have a better chance reaching us than him?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 09:57pm PT
You mean like how Rong made Bundy's issue his issue?
Is it a prerequisite that Survival sanction my outrage?

Phuck Rong and his supporters.


Nothing may be being solved here but the information is being discussed and disseminated.
That is a good thing because if the only narrative you here is Karl Rove's Koch Sauce on FuX Noise then we are doomed.
WBraun

climber
May 14, 2014 - 09:59pm PT
Sanskara

Go study your avatar more deeply.

You might even learn something .......
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 10:00pm PT
Locker I admire your high ground stance.


But that's not me.
The real bully here is Ron.
I am fighting back against bullying.
Fire with fire.
Burn baby burn!
WBraun

climber
May 14, 2014 - 10:01pm PT
Bub bye Philo

See ya in hell .....
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 10:03pm PT
Why are you leaving?
I haven't been deactivated for my hateful meaness.
Wonder why?


There is no other hell than the one we exist on here and now.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 14, 2014 - 10:04pm PT
Ron is not being bullied. He's having as much fun bantering back and forth as anyone else here. Even as much fun as that smoking duck!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 10:07pm PT
20 plus slaughtered kids in Newtown and nary a word about possible regulations just an attack on the folks demanding better gun laws. That and a semantic lesson about assault weapons and a discussion of what would have been more effective for the killing.
Now we got a dead beat racist rancher and the willingness to arm the masses for the overthrow of the Government,



And you think I am closed minded?

There was a time when though I disagreed with several of his perspectives I would have thrown Ron a life preserver if he were drowning.

Then he went on several vial puke, post, delete binges and what he said including several ugly threats against of posters and voila now I'd gladly throw him an anvil.
Sorry if you missed his hateful shet and only notice mine.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 14, 2014 - 10:07pm PT
l0cker, he seems to be doing pretty well holding his own.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 10:20pm PT
What is Ron crying?
Did I do that?

If I am as bad as some say why have I never been deactivated, officially admonished or banned?
Some of the others that I have "bullied" have been deactivated, officially admonished and banned.

I wonder why that is?
Perhaps because I have added actual climbing content that people like.
Maybe but I really hope not. I would be disgusted if tacos put up with me only because I climbed some hunk of choss some where some time.

More likely It's because I have been on the right side of the issues.

Like Dylan said "You don't need a weather vane to know which way the wind blows.

If I am so bad, mean, nasty, impolite, stupid and boorish then I would gladly welcome being banned.

As a friend of mine says Hasta Presto.

Sanskara

climber
May 14, 2014 - 10:29pm PT
Jim:

How do you know I'm not?

Maybe I'm just trolling for old guys who can buy me beer and let me shoot their guns ;)
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 10:39pm PT
Hmmm the incredible shrinking thread.
Dropping posts like turds at the oCOWpie MOOvement.
Wonder who is bailing?
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
May 14, 2014 - 10:39pm PT
On that note I am out of here...

Ok then thanks for nothing!
crankster

Trad climber
May 14, 2014 - 10:42pm PT
This is a thread about anti-government militia. Ron is a militia member and defender. He's fair game.

If you don't like it go to the politics, god and religion thread.

Or start another 9/11 inside job thread.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 11:02pm PT
Please by all means be my guest and be very annoyed with me.

One of my primary concerns is that because these Sovereign loons are fighting for a wrong cause in a wrong way and their actions are emboldening like groups to do the same that it will all be a great self fulfilling prophecy for them. Their radicalized violent approach may well result in many of the Government crack downs they fear. The government will justify it as anti-anarchy initiatives and the American people will by and large approve. You can't bully your way at gun point for very long in the real America.
Step back from the edge you dipshitheads. We have one of the finest most proven systems the world has ever seen of enacting change provided the majority of Americans agree.
Guess what the majority do not agree with radicalized gun toting militias. They will lose but they will hurt all of us on the way out. You radicalized anti-gov morans are the minority but your hate speak bars you from protection from discrimination against a minority.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 11:21pm PT
Come on Werner you are better than this aren't you.
Add content or discourse please.
If it's worth your time to be here posting then why not actually post actual thoughts instead of insulting many who do.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 11:27pm PT
Now that was polite and not bullying in any way.
crankster

Trad climber
May 14, 2014 - 11:37pm PT
Fuk you aszholes .....

Man, when Spike starts hitting the vodka in his bunker it gets ugly fast.

Quit drunk posting, Spike!
Sanskara

climber
May 14, 2014 - 11:37pm PT
Ahhhhh haha

Snicker snicker snicker...

WTF OMG GTFO JOLO and LIKE...

I don't even know what that last one means but I do know all the kids are saying it these days.


philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 14, 2014 - 11:49pm PT
Werner here i am talking directly to you respectfully, politely and in real and proper english.
That is how I have approached posters until they have repeatedly shown themselves to be worthy of derision.
A while back I confronted the ugly face of ODS (Obama derangement syndrome) by publicly exposing my own brother's hate filled wish that my children and I die the most horrible of deaths because I didn't agree with his FOX News fueled right wing extremism. I simply asked him for verifiable sources for his outrageous accusations against Obama. Apparently blood is not thicker than Koch sauce.
I was quite roundly attacked and vilified for exposing the ugly truth even in my own family.
OK that's fine everyone is entitled to an opinion. But admonishing me and not him is in my mind tantamount to tacit approval of his radical views.


So WTF here is my 2nd post on that thread.
I have a feeling that this thread will drop off the front quickly because it doesn't involve Guns, Gods, Politics or worse yet Cali.

Oh well it is a stunning accomplishment and a good read on ALPINIST.com


You know what I wasn't to far off. I have been posting to several good climbing and positive message threads but what gets the action?


It would be interesting to observe the reaction if when Ron posts here again no one responds and this thread dies as it stands. Ain't a gunna happen I'd bet.
crankster

Trad climber
May 15, 2014 - 12:06am PT
Philo, don't try to appease the bullies and extremist, they'll eat you alive. Fight them.
You're going to reason with Spike? Try to talk sense to a member of a militia, someone who is more extreme politically than 99.99% of American's?

Ain't gonna work.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
May 15, 2014 - 12:09am PT
go forth to be a productive member of a society

What was is you was a producin' again Cletus?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
May 15, 2014 - 12:19am PT
Ah, I see. Producin' traitors.
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
May 15, 2014 - 12:36am PT
A lot of sandy vaginas in this thread
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
May 15, 2014 - 12:49am PT
I exfoliate every other day
It does wonders

Wbraun should try it. He's sounding extra cranky :(
Sanskara

climber
May 15, 2014 - 12:57am PT
Every day for me...

I got piles of those little bottles in my recyclables.

Trash collector always gives me funny looks. I act like I don't know why?
Sanskara

climber
May 15, 2014 - 01:09am PT
It's a joke funny funny hahaha!
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
May 15, 2014 - 01:15am PT
TMI.
Sanskara

climber
May 15, 2014 - 01:32am PT
Come on Anita don't play that stupid bullshit with me.

Your the queen of dirty jokes.

Fess up.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 15, 2014 - 02:09am PT
Here is a case in point to what I was expressing.


http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/05/14/newtown-truther-steals-sign/

Ammosexual tells mother of Sandy Hook victim that her daughter never existed


Not a real person according to someone who is not a real human being.
This is why I treat ammosexuals like dirt under my nails:

A vinyl peace sign installed at a playground in Mystic, Connecticut, dedicated to a victim of the Sandy Hook shooting was stolen last week by a man claiming that the Newtown massacre never happened.

After stealing the 50-pound sign from the Grace McDonnell playground, the man called McDonnell’s mother saying he did it because he believes the shooting at the school was a hoax, according to CBS2.

According to the mother, Lynn McDonnell, the man told her that her daughter “never existed.”

The sheer lack of empathy required to do something like this tells me that this is the LAST person that should be allowed to have a gun.

To this kind of person, owning a gun is more important than ANYTHING, including, apparently, basic human decency. They want it, they need it and anything that might create even the slightest barrier to them having one RIGHT NOW is a nefarious plot to destroy America and usher in a new Holocaust.

This, of course, is just how the NRA likes it. Paranoia and outrage sells more guns. This is the same group that once insisted that Obama was preparing to grab everyone’s guns and how did the NRA know? Because Obama didn’t do a single thing to push gun control in his first term. He’s THAT devious!

As long as politicians live in terror of the not-so-mighty NRA, they’re going to continue poisoning our political discourse, flooding our streets with guns and pushing our legislatures to pass “kill-em-all” laws designed to undermine the public’s safety. All so a handful of people can wallow in piles of cash drenched in the blood of children.

No civil society should condone, much less encourage, the kind of sick cruelty that Newtown Truthers exhibit but this is how the right wing distorts the debate: by giving a voice (and a wink and a nod) to the craziest of the crazies, they get to pretend that their slightly less extreme stance on guns is perfectly reasonable. In the meantime, ammosexuals turn a blind eye to the misery and suffering they’re still inflicting on the families of Newtown. Because their loss is far less important than the freedom for anyone, anywhere at anytime to have a gun for any reason.

‘Murika.

This article was originally posted at proudtobeafilthyliberalscum.com



This is why I treat ammosexuals like dirt under my nails:
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
May 15, 2014 - 02:20am PT
Lol turns out the oath keepers were kicked out of bundyland for being turncoat cowards!!

Militiamen and Oath Keepers Drew Weapons, Threatened to Kill Each Other
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 15, 2014 - 02:44am PT
Attacked their own people and threatened to shoot them dead.
One was an elderly Viet Nam Vet with a bad heart that got body slammed to the ground.
So much for the rodent stuffer's noble cause and faux outrage.
He shat on Survival for condemning the oath breaking betrayal of vets present at Bundyville because they were vets. Now they attack and threaten a vet on their side.
These people are the domestic threat they swore an oath to defend the country from.
crankster

Trad climber
May 15, 2014 - 09:12am PT
I was planning to go to Tuolumne this weekend, but now......

O: Patriots (black, white, red, yellow, brown, male, female, civilian, military, truckers, bikers, militias, veterans, old, young, every American that loves freedom and liberty)

Mission: Restoration of Constitutional government, rule of law, freedom, liberty "of the people, for the people, by the people" from despotic and tyrannical federal leadership.

Assumptions:
Millions of Americans will participate.
American veterans and patriots are energized to end the tyranny, lawlessness, and shredding of the US Constitution.
Government is not the target, it is sound; corrupt and criminal leadership must be replaced.
Those in power could use force against unarmed, peaceful patriots exercising their constitutional rights.
Patriots could be harmed, but not expected.
There is no hope given today’s technology of secrecy for the effort nor do we want it secret.

Concept of Operations:
Phase 1 - Field millions, as many as ten million, patriots who will assemble in a peaceful, non-violent, physically unarmed (Spiritually/Constitutionally armed), display of unswerving loyalty to the US Constitution and against the incumbent government leadership, in Washington, D.C., with the mission to replace with law abiding leadership. Go full-bore, no looking back, steadfast in the mission.Phase 2 - One million or more of the assembled 10 million must be prepared to stay in D.C. as long as it takes to see Obama, Biden, Reid, McConnell, Boehner, Pelosi, and Attorney General Holder removed from office.
Consistent with the US Constitution, as required, the U.S. Congress will take appropriate action, execute appropriate legislation, deal with vacancies, or U.S. States will appoint replacements for positions vacated consistent with established constitutional requirements.

Phase 3 – Those with the principles of a West, Cruz, Dr. Ben Carson, Lee, DeMint, Paul, Gov Walker, Sessions, Gowdy, Jordan, should comprise a tribunal and assume positions of authority to convene investigations, recommend appropriate charges against politicians and government employees to the new U.S. Attorney General appointed by the new President.

*All actions in Phase 2 & 3 will be consistent with the U.S. Constitution.

Date of Operation: “OPERATION AMERICAN SPRING – Beginning Of Tyranny Housecleaning, May 16, 2014, completion to be determined

We are past the point of no return, thus must move forward with an effort to save our nation, as there is no other choice. We are asking, pleading with you, and any others that have resources, national voices, email lists, blogs, FB, Twitter, to call for a non-violent American Spring May 16 2014 in Washington D.C. We must appeal to ten million and more American patriots to come and stay in Washington, D.C. to stop the White House and Congress from total destruction of the United States. It’s now or never. God help us.

.....the law of nature rules. A fluffy, cuddly lamb gets eaten by a mean old wolf is not an illegal or immoral event...the law of nature. When some greedy, self-serving occupant of the White House or Congress, or elements outside America, is threatening our existence, our freedom, our liberty, our Constitution, our life resources, our America, then we fight back to destroy the threat and there is nothing immoral or illegal about it. When the government becomes lawless, then "we the people" no longer are obligated to follow the government......there is no law when government picks and chooses for political purposes or personal agenda. At this time the government is performing as a lawless entity......

A duck cannot be turned into a fox; an elephant cannot be turned into a flea; the laws of nature will not permit.
Likewise, a nation ordained and principled by the laws of nature, sovereign, free, with liberty for all cannot naturally become a nation guided by royalty, decrees, tyranny, elitist, self-serving criminals. The former has proven desirable, the latter has proven human pain.
“We can become a nation guided by royalty IF "we the people" beguiled by the government in surrender to our lusts for that which we have not earned --for what is not natural --if we have become intoxicated by unbroken success" as Lincoln proclaimed in March 30 ,1863 call for fasting, humiliation, and prayer--we can very easily heap to ourselves leaders, and with itching ears, be turned from the Truth to become enslaved by the LIE.”
The United States of America (elephant) while embracing the "LIE" is teetering on the abyss of becoming a sniveling, blood sucking, undesirable nation (flea).

OPERATION AMERICAN SPRING will be a gigantic step in removing the flea infestation that is sucking the blood out of America.

We see no reasonable, hopeful sign that indicates there are honorable, loyal, mature, critical thinking, experienced people in government that understands the chaos about to rain down on America, nor do they care....our only hope is that "we the people" call, organize, and draw a few million patriots to stay in D.C. for an "American Spring". It would be the catalyst to draw the line and bring to a conclusion a decision on the out of control government, one way or the other. America will rise up or surrender.........for me, I only go to my knees in the presence of God Almighty...........my knees will not touch the surface as a result of some piss ant occupant of the White House or a corrupt legislator, or outside element...I will fall to my death standing if necessary.

There is not much time and the only planning necessary is to select a starting date, which we have done, and then show up in Washington, D.C. on that date, and plan to stay for the duration. The goal is restoring the US Constitution as the law of the land, removing the lawless leadership. Will this be a cake-walk? No, it will be painful, and some people may die because the government will not be non-violent; some of us will end up in a cell, and some may be injured. If that’s what it will take to save our nation, do we have any choice? Freedom loving Americans will say there is no choice, we must begin the second American Revolution. Not with guns, but with millions of Americans demanding a return to constitutional government and the resignation of Obama, Biden, Reid, McConnell, Boehner, Pelosi, and Holder as a start...then the constitutional restoration process can begin. An AMERICAN SPRING can be avoided only if the above mentioned officials resign.

Will our national patriot leaders step forward and declare, “send me”, I’ll lead? There are millions of veterans and patriots ready to follow and have said “I will go”.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 15, 2014 - 09:21am PT
Where were these morons when W's administration was committing treason on a daily basis?

Those with the principles of a West, Cruz, Dr. Ben Carson, Lee, DeMint, Paul, Gov Walker, Sessions, Gowdy, Jordan...
Seriously...? It just doesn't get much more delusional than this.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
May 15, 2014 - 10:24am PT
Hahahaha

Are they drinking from lead goblets?

It's that level of crazy :-/
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 15, 2014 - 10:41am PT
H, its a bit delusional to again talk about treason of the bush admin in an attempt to somehow deflect focus on the CURRENT treasonous admin. You attempt o justify one by example of another treasonous admin... Its a bit Ironic dontcha think? Our govt ISNT a dem or repub problem, it is squarely BOTH...

The difference is W's administration clearly committed treason whereas no action by the Obama administration has risen anywhere remotely near the level of treason - that is the delusion.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
May 15, 2014 - 10:42am PT
I thought you left????

Already climbed a ton of routes and now you're back!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 15, 2014 - 10:42am PT
I don't think any president in my lifetime has been treasonous.
Well, as a man of extreme moderation I wouldn't expect any other perception.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 15, 2014 - 10:43am PT
I don't think any president in my lifetime has been treasonous.

Raygun gave weaponry to our avowed enemy Iran.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 15, 2014 - 10:43am PT
Ohh,, and i last night ordered my new auto-ordinance M-1 in 30 cal..

Ammosexual.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
May 15, 2014 - 10:43am PT
I don't think any president in my lifetime has been treasonous.

How bout Vice Presidents?
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
May 15, 2014 - 10:49am PT
Sorry locker

Feel better man \../
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 15, 2014 - 10:53am PT
Obama: Armed AL QUAY_DUH on Syria..Armed the "muslim brotherhood" aka AL QUAY DUH in Egypt to take over the country and we all saw how that worked out.. Billary REFUSED to list bozo-harum as terrorists during her stint. Fast and furious armed mexican criminal gangs.. Uh huh.....

You know Ron if you could only PROOVE any of that right wing propaganda it would really improve your case.

Where's the links that can be source and fact checked?
You might as well say Cloven Blunder is the 2nd coming of Jesus for all the worth of fact your propaganda displays.

For once PROVE something.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
May 15, 2014 - 10:55am PT
Ron It's sad that the 'Oath Keeper' signature is gone.

Did it hurt when the real patriots kicked you out and beat you up? :-(

fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
May 15, 2014 - 10:58am PT
trea·son
ˈtrēzən/
noun
the crime of betraying one's country
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 15, 2014 - 11:00am PT
Locker I'm not always the meanest, nastiest, most impolite poster on the taco.
But when I am look out. lol



By the way FYI, Bush Sr. (Poppy) made it a treasonable offencse to out a CIA agent.
His boy Spurious George had Valerie Plame outed to punish her husband for not being in lock step with their political agenda.

Dude, That IS treason.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 15, 2014 - 11:03am PT
Ammosexual.

How babies arrive in 2nd Amendment Fantasyland.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 15, 2014 - 11:06am PT
Who controlled the investigation?
Who controlled the Congressional record?
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
May 15, 2014 - 11:11am PT
DMT with all due respect I'm not going to list generally-accepted examples of Bush/Cheney acts of treason and listen to you argue that because they committed them as Americans and some other Americans may have benefitted somehow that they weren't really treasonous. Thanks anyway.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 15, 2014 - 11:11am PT
Also by strict definition (though not Congressional Record) Reagan and Bush's arms dealing with Iran to scuttle Jimmy Carter's re-election chances was TREASON.
Iran may not be a mortal enemy to you or me but our government labeled them the enemy thus dealing with them as Reagan/Bush did was an act of TREASON.

Ron no President in history had more cabinet members indicted than Reagan with Bush Jr coming in a close second. Your statements don't hold water.
WBraun

climber
May 15, 2014 - 11:11am PT
Name this bullsh!t anything you want but it all boils down as crimes against humanity ......
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 15, 2014 - 11:14am PT
^^^ Valerie Plame.


Do you have any idea how many operatives were neutralized because of that treasonous act?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
May 15, 2014 - 11:15am PT
Dick Cheney conspired, with his right hand man, Lewis "Scooter" Libby to out undercover CIA agent Valerie Plame.

He did so with the help of his friend and sympathetic right winger in the press, the now deceased Robert Novak.

They did this because Plame's husband, former Ambassador Joe Wilson, was pointing out, loudly and publicly, that the so-called Nigerian Yellow Cake docs were laughably fake and those docs were a big part of the justification for invading Iraq as they backed up the lie that Saddam was pursuing nukes (yellow cake is partially refined uranium ore).

Scooter was convicted and did time in a Fed pokey for his role. Like the good minion he was, he refused to implicate Cheney. So I'd say yes, Cheney is in fact a treasonous SOB. And a shitstain on humanity to boot.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
May 15, 2014 - 11:17am PT
That's a pretty weak (and snide) retort DMT

Enjoy hair-splitting from your shaky pedestal man.
crankster

Trad climber
May 15, 2014 - 11:18am PT
The extremist talking points Rifleman Ron regurgitates aren't new - it's the bread & butter of the radio yakkers, Fox, Newsmax.

They just throw out mindless crap all day and the wingnuts eat it up.

Predictable as the sunrise. Just think how depressing it would be to listen to this nauseating garbage and let it whip you into a state of rage where you join a militia!

Wait until Hillary takes office. You think this old, white crowd gets riled up with a black president, wait till you see what they do to a woman.




WBraun

climber
May 15, 2014 - 11:19am PT
Like the good minion he was, he refused to implicate Cheney

Of course nobody was going to implicate these top dog criminals.

You'll end up dead very quickly .....
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 15, 2014 - 11:21am PT
Well then DMT in that case OJ didn't kill his ex-wife the criminal court case proved it right?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 15, 2014 - 11:46am PT
Dingus,,A recent poll that asked if the Benghazi case should be revisited by Congress,, 2 out of 3 Americans voted yes, and that INCLUDES a 55% democrat spread in the poll..

Once again Ron let's see the proof.


Hey Hawk you seem to be masturbating on these threads quite a bit yourself. Lonely.
As for me I slipped a few days back, pinched some nerves and haven't been able to use my legs much at all since.
Do you begrudge my time here. It is keeping my mind off the dark side of thought.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
May 15, 2014 - 11:50am PT
Fukin A! Benghazi!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 15, 2014 - 11:51am PT
DMT with all due respect and you are due much respect I don't believe that most Americans supported those two miserable invasions. Certainly not the second one.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 15, 2014 - 11:56am PT
So did I DMT, so did I.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
May 15, 2014 - 11:57am PT
There should have been a Nuremberg over what went on in Iraq. Pure criminality. War based on lies that perpetuated a million dead, conservatively, and thousands of wasted American lives.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 15, 2014 - 11:59am PT
Where were the Militia Patriots then?
Too busy waiting for a Black President I presume.
John M

climber
May 15, 2014 - 11:59am PT
Dingus, Its seems to me what you are saying is that its not treason against the country if the majority go along with it. Would that be correct? And would your reasoning be that "the people" are the country?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 15, 2014 - 12:06pm PT
I consider sending American troops into harms way in a preemptive war justified with manufactured intelligence presented to members of Congress solely in order to pursue a political agenda to be an act of treason. That Obama decided not to prosecute them for it will be one of his most enduring legacies.
WBraun

climber
May 15, 2014 - 12:10pm PT
That Obama decided not to prosecute them ...


How's he gonna do it.

Nobody can do it now.

You'll be dead in no time if anyone even tries.

These criminals run the whole planet now ......
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 15, 2014 - 12:10pm PT
^^^^ Yep Healyje a case where doing something for the good of the country wasn't good for the country. But could you just imagine if the Black man had put the white man on trial for treason and crimes against humanity. Just look what happened when the BLM tried to legally round up and remove Cloven Blunder's cows.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
May 15, 2014 - 12:13pm PT
philo,it would have been like one big klan rally in the gold old USA
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
May 15, 2014 - 01:16pm PT
Come on Anita don't play that stupid bullshit with me.

Your the queen of dirty jokes.

Fess up.


shut up

Sanskara

climber
May 15, 2014 - 01:22pm PT
Really?

Weak...

Really really weak actually!

Considering..



sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
May 15, 2014 - 01:23pm PT
If anyone has the stomach, take a gander at these pics. http://www.vice.com/read/karlos-zurutuza-on-iraq-unfolding-medical-nightmare

Of course, the US denies any wrongdoings.
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
May 15, 2014 - 01:28pm PT
Considering..


considering..................
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 15, 2014 - 01:57pm PT
DMT
Thanks for being so clear about treason. Article III section 3 of the Constitution sets a high bar for treason.
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.
One could argue that outing an active CIA operative gave Aid and Comfort to our enemies. It may have blown the cover of active operatives as she had been working overseas from 2000 to 2003.
However despicable it was to out her Armitage, Libby, Novak could not have been charged with Treason.

When the "militias" start shooting Federal or State agents in a coordinated fashion specifically because they object to their government, one might call it treason.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 15, 2014 - 02:09pm PT
We all knew the WMD was a lie, but most of my fellow citizens chose to accept it out of fear
I'm embarrassed to say I took Sec'y of State Colin Powell's word for WMDs. I watched his presentation to the UN live and thought carefully about what I saw and heard. I was skeptical but finally convinced. He and his chief of staff Colonel Wilkerson had doubts about WMD and were duped/manipulated by the Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld triumvirate.
He was the one Republican in the administration I had respect for. No longer. He should have been more suspicious of those thugs. He should have resigned instead.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
May 15, 2014 - 02:17pm PT
woe the karmic debt owed by the USA...
crankster

Trad climber
May 15, 2014 - 02:30pm PT
A recent poll that asked if the Benghazi case should be revisited by Congress,, 2 out of 3 Americans voted yes, and that INCLUDES a 55% democrat spread in the poll..

This "poll" must have been at the gun & ammo store. I think most intelligent people recognise this is a political stunt intended to smear the current & future president's.

Meanwhile...."Operation American Spring organizer Harry Riley appeared on Alan Colmes' radio show, where he explained his plan to bring 10-20 million people into the nation's capital for a rally to overthrow Obama with the help of militias".

10 - 20 is more like it. These creeps hang out with their own kind so they think everyone thinks like them. Like hanging out at a gun store in Nevada.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 15, 2014 - 02:31pm PT
^^^ touche'
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 15, 2014 - 02:37pm PT
However despicable it was to out her Armitage, Libby, Novak could not have been charged with Treason.

This is not true.

You do not need to be guilty of a crime, to be charged with a crime. There is an excellent program running on FRONTLINE, that tracks how one whistleblower, Thomas Drake, NSA Senior Executive, was so charged, had his career and life ruined, only to have the charges dropped to a minor misdemeanor the day before trial.

At the July sentencing hearing the presiding judge, Richard D. Bennett of the Federal District Court, issued harsh words for the government, saying that it was "unconscionable" to charge a defendant with a list of serious crimes that could have resulted in 35 years in prison only to drop all of the major charges on the eve of trial.[61] The judge also rejected the government's request for a large fine noting that Drake had been financially devastated, losing his $154,600 job at the NSA and his pension.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/united-states-of-secrets/
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
May 15, 2014 - 02:41pm PT
What Ken just posted is true generally. Once one makes an accusation, your name will be forever associated with that accusation, even if you are acquitted, exonerated, or charges dropped.

I just remember one politician a few decades ago, after complete exoneration, asking rather sadly, "Where do I go to get my reputation back?"

That's why prosecutorial discretion is so vital -- and so often lacking in today's US.

John
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 15, 2014 - 02:41pm PT
You do not need to be guilty of a crime, to be charged with a crime
There is indeed far too much government retribution and bullying for the good of this country.
It is a death of a thousand cuts to our liberty.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
May 15, 2014 - 03:32pm PT
If you're just charging people with whatever based on nothing of merit you won't make it too far in the legal profession
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 15, 2014 - 03:33pm PT
But you'll be a big hit with the TeaPublicans.
dirtbag

climber
May 15, 2014 - 03:38pm PT
Fook Al Boondy!
crankster

Trad climber
May 15, 2014 - 05:25pm PT
Looks like the Bundy Ranch and Ron's gun shop are free from drone strike threats for a few day..they are targeting the Million Wingnut Rally!

"We’ve got some strategies in place that can shut them down so fast and so completely that there won’t be any problems like that. Now if something bigger happens, you know they can pull in drones, but when the government destroys the capital just to get rid of us, I think it’s going to work to their discredit."

See more at: http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/operation-american-spring-organizer-worries-obama-might-launch-drone-strike-washington-dc#sthash.AwnbHdIL.dpuf
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 15, 2014 - 05:35pm PT
"...but when the government destroys the capital just to get rid of us, I think it’s going to work to their discredit."

That's some pretty sharp cogitatin' right there, yessiree.
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
May 15, 2014 - 11:24pm PT
Spitting, Stalking, Rape Threats: How Gun Extremists Target Women

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/05/guns-bullying-open-carry-women-moms-texas

Somehow this seems to fit this wonderful thread.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
May 16, 2014 - 11:38am PT

This is deplorable and disgusting but unsurprising. We know what kind of people these gun nuts are, and it will be their undoing.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
May 16, 2014 - 12:17pm PT
This is deplorable and disgusting but unsurprising. We know what kind of people these gun nuts are, and it will be their undoing.


You think so? Looks like the everything is going their way. The NRA had its best month ever, after Sandy Hook.

That lady is taking the wrong approach. She shudda carried and shot that pig on the spot.
Degaine

climber
May 16, 2014 - 12:17pm PT
DMT wrote:
I know I did not support either and took considerable flak for it.

Same here (flak for not supporting either invasion). Ironically, relative to this discussion, I was called a traitor many times by people (not posters here) for not being in favor of the invasion of Afghanistan.

dirtbag

climber
May 16, 2014 - 12:27pm PT
Post #5000: FOOK YOU, AL BUNDY.
WBraun

climber
May 16, 2014 - 12:39pm PT
Operation American Spring to hit D.C. to oust Obama, Biden, Boehner, Holder starts today.

1 million militia and up to 9million more supporters will descend onto Washington today to "Save" America.

Supertopo libtards, politards are all shaking in their boots as we speak :-)

Some are hiding under the refrigerator in fear.

Ho Mann

Rolls eyes ......

fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
May 16, 2014 - 12:45pm PT
Supertopo libtards, politards

ok tardtard
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 16, 2014 - 12:48pm PT
1 million militia and up to 9million more supporters will descend onto Washington toady to "Save" America.


So, if 10,000 show up will it be called a raging success?

There were only 250,000 for MLK's famous speech.

10 million would be almost double the population of DC. Where will they park? DC doesn't even have enough parking for the folks that live there!

It would be a MASSIVE logistical undertaking and thousands of buses would need to be hired.

Bring it on militia fruitcakes, let's see whatcha got! (rolls eyes)




WBraun

climber
May 16, 2014 - 12:58pm PT
LOL

Operation American Spring has been given a media blackout with the anticipated monstrous turnout of dissident Americans against the present administration.

HO Mann

Everyone crawl back under the refrigerator it might get bad ......

:-)
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 16, 2014 - 01:17pm PT
I don't care if some guys don't understand you Werner, I do, and you've been gold since the early ascent of Tribal Rite days.

I never forget sh#t like that. I promise.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
May 16, 2014 - 01:20pm PT
oops impromptu cupping session
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 16, 2014 - 01:22pm PT
Thanks for the cup fluffy!

Sh#t, I don't even know you yet....

Can we share a smoke after?


Edit: Yes DMT, I'll lead, as long as it's well within my wheelhouse!
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
May 16, 2014 - 01:24pm PT
1 million militia and up to 9 million more supporters will descend onto Washington today to "Save" America”

1 million militia and up to 9 million more supporters will be using their individual cell phones taking pictures and texting using Twitter, Facebook and Google where to go and plan where to meet onto Washington today to "Save" America; little will they know that they will be screened and copied into “the Data base” all legally and not by the NSA.

Brought to by the 1% people who control you and do not care What freedoms you might think you have or had.

In Fact they don't even have to show up all texts and messages are already being copied into the filing system.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
May 16, 2014 - 03:09pm PT
Nevada will follow: next candidates

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-27450081

Actually make it all states.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 16, 2014 - 03:52pm PT
G'damn, those candidates are priceless.

Thanks for posting that link!!
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 16, 2014 - 04:50pm PT
Werner? What's up? Why are you "ducking-out" on the exciting film clip on Idaho's Republican Governor's candidates debate?

Are you scared of retaliation after the Obama govenment falls due to the 10 million-tard march on DC today?

It's too much fun to delete. Here's the local Idaho news link:

It doesn't get much better than watching this short news video hi-light of Idaho's Republican Governor's debate. The existing governor, who's first name is "Butch" is in a suit. The two doing the ranting are somewhat more conservative.

The TV station that filmed and edited this was having fun------- and you will too.

http://www.idahostatesman.com/2014/05/15/3186178/idahos-goofy-guvs-debate-could.html?sp=/99/1687/&ihp=1


and your BBC link to the video:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-27450081
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
May 16, 2014 - 05:45pm PT
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
May 16, 2014 - 06:53pm PT
Nice post 104
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
May 16, 2014 - 06:56pm PT
Their gathering flopped because all their medicare Mobility Scooters ran out of juice before they could get past the local feed-n-seed store or WalMart. No chance those things would hold enough charge to get them to D.C.
dirtbag

climber
May 16, 2014 - 07:03pm PT
Good news base. I was confident the blm was taking such actions. It's a war of attrition, and those idiots pointing rifles, interfering with the blm and trespassing will eventually lose.
WBraun

climber
May 16, 2014 - 07:07pm PT
Base104's worst nightmare, Chief Mark Kessler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QQW0RswpQ4

Check him out lol .....hahahaha

Ho Mannn .....
crankster

Trad climber
May 16, 2014 - 07:18pm PT
Looks like the White People's revolution fell short of 10 million. Like 9,999,850 short.

bergbryce

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 16, 2014 - 07:21pm PT
why do white trash love under armor? there have been dozens of makers of better base layers before them, why the obsession with this one company?
is it because they have been so successful at plastering their brand on every televised sporting event there is??
real patriots sit on their asses and watch televised sports and take their dosage of advertisements and then act on them!!
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
May 16, 2014 - 07:22pm PT
Base 104

They will get squished. It would be over before in that you would not even miss the next episode of “Dancing with The Stars”.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
May 16, 2014 - 11:01pm PT
I think it's time for both sides to sit down together, smoke a few bowls, and watch the finest gun nut/survivalist scene ever filmed.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 17, 2014 - 11:11am PT
I bet that scene gives Ron some serious wood.




SQUIIIIRRRT!!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 17, 2014 - 11:39am PT
Hey, the Operation American Dud commander is a high ranking vet!

Should we bow down to the guy?



Here's a better question.

How many American veterans have NOT shown up at any of these patriot games?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 22, 2014 - 03:16pm PT
Sorry, but I'm still fascinated by these crackpots.

I love how this Oklahoma dizweed talks about the Federal gov't "unlawfully" rounding up Bundy's cattle.

So what's the latest?
[Click to View YouTube Video]
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 22, 2014 - 05:41pm PT
survival's video above ^^^^
evidently here in America you don't actually own the property any more......if you ever did
Brilliant, Sherlock. What was your first clue?

Things are pretty quiet in the press about Bundyville. They've had their two minutes of fame. Meanwhile the Feds are quietly, carefully going about their business of putting some of the rebels in jail.
May 8th
FBI agents have opened a criminal investigation into the April 12 confrontation between Bunkerville rancher Cliven Bundy and his armed supporters and law enforcement authorities, Sheriff Doug Gillespie confirmed Thursday.
Sheriff Gillespie of Clark County NV.
Among those interviewed within the past week were assistant sheriffs Joe Lombardo and Kevin McMahill, who were in charge of police officers at the scene of the disturbance.

The FBI investigation, Gillespie said, is in its early stages.

Lombardo, who is running to succeed Gillespie this year, said he was interviewed by FBI agents on May 1 for about 60 to 90 minutes.

One of the agents was assigned to the Southern Nevada Joint Terrorism Task Force, he said.

Agents, he said, were primarily interested in who was pointing weapons at federal agents.

He said he expected agents to be poring over videotapes and photos taken during the confrontation as part of their efforts to identify people making threats.

Lombardo said roughly 75 percent of the estimated 300 Bundy supporters, including militia members from across the country, were armed on April 12.

Lombardo was one of the Deputy Sheriffs actually at the standoff.
So now it appears there were only about 300 Bundy supporters (some "militia" mouthpieces were claiming 1000). But 3/4 were armed. So maybe he wasn't counting the unarmed women and children shields.
http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/bundy-blm/sheriff-fbi-investigating-threats-made-law-enforcement-during-bundy-showdown
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 22, 2014 - 06:12pm PT
I look forward to the moment when a few of these "patriots" are arrested and charged with being a full on dickhead.



Edit: Locker's new full time job is surfing around and accusing people of doing what he's doing all the time.....

crankster

Trad climber
May 27, 2014 - 10:38pm PT
http://bullionsharks.com/shop/cliven-bundy-commemorative-silver-coin/
Order your coins today - don't pay, just like Clive!

couchmaster

climber
Jun 9, 2014 - 06:06am PT

Only really addressing this to Ron Anderson, since (I think he said that) he was there at the Bundy standoff. My question Ron, and I'm not being denigrating here, but want you to consider this: when you were at the Bundy thing, what would have happened had these 2 dickheads been there in support but had opened fire at the worst time when the BLM had positioned and massed the most storm troopers? Anytime you show up at an armed confrontation with multiple parties, there is the potential for this to occur. Glad it didn't, but did you consider it might while you were there? If these guys had the brains to have shown up at that event, the world might be a vastly different place.



http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/las-vegas/shooters-metro-ambush-left-five-dead-spoke-white-supremacy-and-desire-kill-police

"Two Las Vegas police officers were killed Sunday in what appears to be a politically motivated ambush in a pizza restaurant that spilled over to a nearby Wal-Mart, where the two shooters committed suicide after killing a woman in the store. Details are sketchy, but Metropolitan Police Department sources close to the investigation say the shooters shouted that “this is the start of a revolution” before opening fire on the officers, and draped their bodies with cloth showing a Revolutionary War-era flag. Investigators have also found paraphernalia associated with white supremacists."
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Jun 9, 2014 - 06:16am PT
So this Bundy is a white spupremicist?

If the price of 5 Taliban was too high for one of our servicepeople, is the price of 2 police officers too high for 2 white supremicists?

I was unhappy when Reid was re-elected but given he's there, I hope he gets the Justice Department in there to rip the top offa this nest.
couchmaster

climber
Jun 9, 2014 - 06:52am PT
Uhh, no, please try and follow along John.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Jun 9, 2014 - 07:30am PT
I've read, a lot of that Western land was claimed, by deserters and draft evaders that arrived during the Civil War. Really something. People dying on the fields defending the country and these people have the gall to defend their land claims.
couchmaster

climber
Jun 9, 2014 - 07:42am PT
Thanks for the reply man. Ron A said:
"No couch i did not say i was there. I wasnt. Your what ifs are just that. What if one of the BLM officers would have opened up? All i can tell you is that the people there were dead serious."

I misunderstood. I think that the man and woman who killed the 2 officers in the story I linked above were dead serious as well. An event like the Bundy confrontation sucks folks like that in much like a Cinnabon store sucks in fat people. It would be something to be very careful about I would think. In group situations, the lowest common denominator/squeaky wheel often sets the agenda. In light of this article to show up in an armed conflict with folks you have just met seems like a very rash thing to do, where luck or the toss of the dice determines the outcome.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Jun 9, 2014 - 07:43am PT
Would you say they had a pleeethora?

couchmaster

climber
Jun 9, 2014 - 07:44am PT
gesundheit
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jun 9, 2014 - 07:47am PT
All i can tell you is that the people there were dead serious.

Well, there are a lot of seriously dead people in Las Vegas this morning.

At least Al Qaeda struck against military and economic interests, these idiots start their revolution at Walmart? Can't say as I'm impressed by the strategic thinking of your fellow militia men, Ron.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jun 9, 2014 - 08:11am PT
WTF Gary?? Do you remember 911? Or how about every innocent life taken in suicide bombings at malls around the world? Your now saying al-fukking quayDUH is better than a militia that never fired a shot?

WTF, yourself, Ron. At least Al Qaeda went after the powers that be, Wall Street and the Pentagon. These two morans struck against their fellow hillbillies at the Walmart.

As for a miltia that never fired a shot, you might be mistaken about that, don't you think?
John M

climber
Jun 9, 2014 - 08:16am PT
Please reread Couchmasters post Ron..


I misunderstood. I think that the man and woman who killed the 2 officers in the story I linked above were dead serious as well. An event like the Bundy confrontation sucks folks like that in much like a Cinnabon store sucks in fat people. It would be something to be very careful about I would think. In group situations, the lowest common denominator/squeaky wheel often sets the agenda. In light of this article to show up in an armed conflict with folks you have just met seems like a very rash thing to do, where luck or the toss of the dice determines the outcome.

I understand that you were not there, and as you pointed out, the BLM officers could have started it too. But either way.. it came really close to ending up with a whole lot of people dead. Which is why lots of us call it crazy to show up like that.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jun 9, 2014 - 08:32am PT
And are you now JUSTIFYING al-fukking quay-DUH attacking our "powers that be" ????

Not JUSTIFYING anything, Ron. Just POINTING OUT that Al Qaeda attacked the Pentagon, not some f*#king Walmart. Al Qaeda struck against power. Your miltia buddies in Las Vegas attacked the powerless.

Do you see the difference?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jun 9, 2014 - 08:41am PT
Gary wrote: Do you see the difference?


Ron lives in a bizarre little world. Him and bands of wanna-be-warriors had their five minutes of attention.
John M

climber
Jun 9, 2014 - 08:42am PT
Ron. Just POINTING OUT that Al Qaeda attacked the Pentagon, not some f*#king Walmart.

Gary, Al Qaeda also attacked the world trade center towers. Thats a symbol of power, but it was full of innocent people. It was not a military target.
John M

climber
Jun 9, 2014 - 08:46am PT
Ron.. isn't that the same logic you used with Bergdahl's father saying "praise Allah". You equated that as meaning he was somehow a radical muslim.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jun 9, 2014 - 08:50am PT
Wrong again Rong...go back to your hole.

http://gawker.com/neighbors-say-vegas-shooters-were-white-supremacists-b-1588026886?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_facebook&utm_source=gawker_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Jun 9, 2014 - 08:52am PT
However you slice it, the gummint has to take this as a warning. If they sit on their asses and there's another big body count from these people, they'll have the blood on their heads.

So it should get interesting.

John M

climber
Jun 9, 2014 - 08:54am PT
So every moderate muslim shouldn't say "praise Allah" as that would mean that they are somehow supporting the radical muslims…

Come on Ron.. you are going nuts on this.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jun 9, 2014 - 09:13am PT
Better watch it, Ron. You might end up in a FEMA camp.
crankster

Trad climber
Jun 9, 2014 - 09:16am PT
my fellow militia members

I think it's safe to say that if you are trying to have a reasonable debate with someone who uses this in a sentence you are wasting your time.

These statements would be red flags, too:

My fellow inmates
My fellow wizards
My fellow unicorns
My fellow fence-posts


BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jun 9, 2014 - 09:43am PT
It is a case of self-brainwashing.

Sorta like that guy with the sunglasses and flight jacket who appears on all of the UFO programs. He believes everything, or acts like it, and pliable minds find comfort believing in it. Some folks are total UFO and alien crazy.

These guys believe that the Federal Government has no standing in law. They believe that states are sovereign (utterly), and only the county sheriff can enforce the law.

Some of them believe that Obama has had FEMA building mass concentration camps. He is going to round up all of the trouble makers and then put them in the camps. Then the Illuminati or the Global Elite will take over and there will be a one world government....the New World Order.

Just read the Georgia Guidestones like that NWO2 guy who used to post here does.

I can't see it for the life of me. How do these people get sooooo twisted up in conspiracy theories and outright bald lies?

Do you believe in any of this, Ron? What caused you to suddenly join a militia? What are your beliefs?
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 9, 2014 - 09:44am PT

Well at least one thing about the militia: you know you will be well protected.

As for Bin Laden he won: His target was the US Financial system.

BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jun 9, 2014 - 10:02am PT
Ron,

Fine. I didn't know how old Burn's Brigade was. I couldn't find anything on Google about it.

So WHY did you join or co-found a militia?

Are you one of these sovereign citizen types or what?
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Jun 9, 2014 - 10:06am PT
Couldn't find anything on the 'Burns Brigade' that he 'co-founded'? Because there are exactly 2 'members' and this 'Brigade' is some fantasy that exists in his own mind and on the pages of ST. Angry old men playing make-believe...it's fuc kin SAD.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 9, 2014 - 10:07am PT
Anger seems to be the fuel for the militia fire.

Isn't that like saying the sun rises in the east? I think an objective analyst
would say a lot of the anger is justified. But the same analyst would take
issue with the venting of it and the 'solutions' proposed.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jun 9, 2014 - 10:08am PT
DMT, surely anger is a motivation for many, but I would like to hear Ron's personal take on why he felt that he needed to join a militia.

I've watched a ton of militia/Patriot videos on youtube, and there are many different "sects" within the militia movement. Some are racists and some are not, for example.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jun 9, 2014 - 10:13am PT
Ron wrote: My militia formed shortly after 9-11-2001. For many reasons that wont be discussed here. But our name is after one Mr Dan Burns, who entered WW11 as a sixteen yr old who was in the bataan death march at 18, survived and escaped a Japanese prison , returned to his unit to finish out the war, came home and began a family and very successful career without so much as one whine about PTSD.


And what do you have in common with Dan Burns...nothing. Loser!
crankster

Trad climber
Jun 9, 2014 - 10:37am PT
Members of our militia

Again, a red flag. Might as well be:

Members of our ward
Members of our shaved-head society
Members of our parakeet nest
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jun 9, 2014 - 10:38am PT
Gary, Al Qaeda also attacked the world trade center towers. Thats a symbol of power, but it was full of innocent people. It was not a military target.

Yes, killing innocent people sucks, we can all agree on that, whether done by Al Qaeda, the United States government, or Ron's militia heroes.

Correct. And he failed. Despite BushCo's best efforts to help him.

It was almost like W was taking orders from Bin Laden.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Jun 9, 2014 - 11:21am PT
I don't get the DMT luuvvv for Ron

I'm sure you've got your reasons but don't you think he can speak for himself here?

Quit coddling the old coot his mouth is big enough for both feet
John M

climber
Jun 9, 2014 - 11:23am PT
came home and began a family and very successful career without so much as one whine about PTSD.

I'm so tired of people saying that people are whining when they talk about an issue like PTSD. In WW2 it was called shell shock. It was recognized as serious, though not very well understood. If you are implying that since this guy went through all of these things and functioned well, that everyone should be able to, then you clearly do not understand PTSD. It affects everyone differently.
craig morris

Trad climber
la
Jun 9, 2014 - 11:32am PT
I think fear is the flame that burns in there belly. anger hides it.
did you see those idiots walking around with assault rifles.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 9, 2014 - 11:46am PT
Bin Laden won.

But the war-lovers just can't say it, just like they will never be able to say that we lost Viet Nam....and we did.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 9, 2014 - 11:47am PT
You have to understand that Rong hates veterans. He agrees with Romney, that they are that 47% that are just a drain on REAL Americans, who work hard.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jun 9, 2014 - 12:04pm PT
Rong wrote: Yur talking out yur ass bobDUH... Go concentrate on FOCUS of your bird pics pleeeze.


From the mind of a six year who wants to play war.
jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Jun 9, 2014 - 12:06pm PT
feel the love, man!
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jun 9, 2014 - 12:16pm PT
I don't get the DMT luuvvv for Ron

That's 'cause Ron's an OK guy. His logic is a little wacky sometimes, though.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 9, 2014 - 12:19pm PT

Off Topic... The Backwater Gospel and The Undertaker
[Click to View YouTube Video]

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jun 9, 2014 - 01:13pm PT
opening fire on the officers, and draped their bodies with cloth showing a Revolutionary War-era flag. Investigators have also found paraphernalia associated with white supremacists.
(Las Vegas Review Journal)
What part of the links between neo-Nazis, white supremacists and the "militias" don't some people get??

NO, not every "militia" creep/creepette is neo-Nazi AND white supremacist AND re-Revolutionary but there's a big streak in most of them.

I am disgusted and saddened by these three murders, I say good riddance to the morons who killed each other.
But I am NOT surprised.

When Commies were the BoogeyMen, those who believed in Communism (no, not Socialism) were called fellow travelers.
There are plenty of "militia" fellow travelers and wannabes around.

Why do I insist on putting "militia" in quotes? because these idiotic self-delusional rabble are nothing like a real militia.
Militia specifically means (even in the modern sense) a group of armed and TRAINED citizens who owe allegiance to and are available to be called out by the government when needed. This is what it meant in 1789 in the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution.
It does not mean an armed rabble taking up causes against the government.
That is properly called Rebellion

Captain John Parker who led the Colonists at Lexington:
Parker's Lexington company were not minutemen, as sometimes stated, but from the main body of Massachusetts Militia.[
The Massachusetts Militia specifically owed allegiance to the Colony of Massachusetts.
They were not a rabble of malcontents.

Look it up in your Wikipedia for a full definition with all the nuances.
crankster

Trad climber
Jun 9, 2014 - 01:17pm PT
A sober message for Rifleman Ron and his militia buddies...

Yesterday, a man and a woman shot two police officers in a Las Vegas restaurant after saying, “this is a revolution.” Then they draped their bodies in a Gadsden flag. According to reports now coming in, the couple (who later killed themselves) appear to have been white supremacists and told neighbors they had gone to join the protests in support of anti-government rancher Cliven Bundy. It was one more incident of right-wing terrorism that, while not exactly an epidemic, has become enough of a trend to raise some troubling questions.
What I’m about to say will raise some hackles, but we need to talk about it. It’s long past time for prominent conservatives and Republicans to do some introspection and ask whether they’re contributing to outbreaks of right-wing violence.
Before I go on, let me be clear about what I’m not saying. I’m not saying that Republican members of Congress bear direct responsibility for everything some disturbed person from the same side of the political spectrum as them might do. I’m not saying that they are explicitly encouraging violence. Nor am I saying that you can’t find examples of liberals using hyperbolic, irresponsible words.
But what I am saying is this: there are some particular features of conservative political rhetoric today that help create an atmosphere in which violence and terrorism can germinate.
The most obvious component is the fetishization of firearms and the constant warnings that government will soon be coming to take your guns. But that’s only part of it. Just as meaningful is the conspiracy theorizing that became utterly mainstream once Barack Obama took office. If you tuned into one of many national television and radio programs on the right, you heard over and over that Obama was imposing a totalitarian state upon us. You might hear that FEMA was building secret concentration camps (Glenn Beck, the propagator of that theory, later recanted it, though he has a long history of violent rhetoric), or that Obama is seeding the government with agents of the Muslim Brotherhood. You grandfather probably got an email offering proof that Obama is literally the antichrist.
Meanwhile, conservatives have become prone to taking the political disagreements of the moment and couching them in apocalyptic terms, encouraging people to think that if Democrats have their way on any given debate, that our country, or at the very least our liberty, might literally be destroyed.
To take just one of an innumerable number of examples, when GOP Senator Ron Johnson says that the Affordable Care Act is “the greatest assault on freedom in our lifetime,” and hopes that the Supreme Court will intervene to preserve our “last shred of freedom,” is it at all surprising that some people might be tempted to take up arms? After all, if he’s right, and the ACA really means that freedom is being destroyed, then violent revolution seems justified. Johnson might respond by saying, “Well, of course I didn’t mean that literally.” And I’m sure he didn’t — Johnson may be no rocket scientist, but he knows that despite the individual mandate going into effect, there are a few shreds of freedom remaining in America.
But the argument that no sane person could actually believe many of the things conservatives say shouldn’t absolve them of responsibility. When you broadcast every day that the government of the world’s oldest democracy is a totalitarian beast bent on turning America into a prison of oppression and fear, when you glorify lawbreakers like Cliven Bundy, when you say that your opponents would literally destroy the country if they could, you can’t profess surprise when some people decide that violence is the only means of forestalling the disaster you have warned them about.
To my conservative friends tempted to find outrageous things liberals have said in order to argue that both sides are equally to blame, I’d respond this way: Find me all the examples of people who shot up a church after reading books by Rachel Maddow and Paul Krugman, and then you’ll have a case.
In our recent history, every election of a Democratic president is followed by a rise in conspiracy-obsessed right-wing populism. In the 1960s it was the John Birch Society; in the 1990s it was the militia movement shouting about black UN helicopters, and during the Obama presidency it was the Tea Party. Some of those movements are ultimately harmless, but alongside and around them are people who take their rhetoric seriously and lash out in response. After these killings in Nevada, and the murders at a Jewish community center in Kansas, and the murders at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin, and multiple murders by members of the “sovereign citizens” movement in the last few years, it’s worth remembering that since 9/11, right-wing terrorism has killed many more Americans than al Qaeda terrorism.
And I promise you, these murders in Nevada will not be the last. It may be going too far to say that conservative politicians and media figures whose rhetoric has fed the deranged fantasies of terrorists and killers have blood on their hands. But they shouldn’t have a clear conscience, either.
crankster

Trad climber
Jun 9, 2014 - 01:22pm PT
Sound like a gun and ammo salesman you know?

In Jerad Miller's Facebook postings, he invoked the Bundy Ranch standoff while it was picking up steam in early April with a revolutionary fervor.

"Ranch war almost under way," he posted on April 9. "[W]e need to watch this closely, could be the next Waco and start of revolution."

Later the same day, Miller posted that he would be "supporting Clive Bundy and his family from Federal Government slaughter... We must do something. I will be doing something."

Al Jazeera America quoted someone named Jerad Miller in an April 22 report on the Bundy Ranch standoff, though it identified him as a "rancher."

"I feel sorry for any federal agents that want to come in here and try to push us around or anything like that," he told the news outlet. "I really don't want violence toward them, but if they're gonna come bring violence to us, if that's the language they want to speak, we'll learn it."

In addition, television station KRNV in Reno aired a report on April 14 that included video from the Bundy Ranch site and an interview with a supporter identified as "Jarad Miller" and who gave a very similar quote that was given to Al Jazeera.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jun 9, 2014 - 01:25pm PT
My Bad!!!
I omitted Christian Fundamentalists from the "militia" witches brew:

and again NO, I don't presume every devout Christian is a fundamentalist nor that every fundamentalist is a radical right wing nutcase.
Just those that espouse that rhetoric.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jun 9, 2014 - 01:28pm PT
Just posted by AP.
http://hosted2.ap.org/APDEFAULT/3d281c11a96b4ad082fe88aa0db04305/Article_2014-06-09-US--Police%20Shot-Las%20Vegas/id-5c440a4ef8164e04a57b6a8e097f08ce

LAS VEGAS (AP) — Investigators are looking into whether the husband and wife who shot and killed two Las Vegas police officers over the weekend had been at Cliven Bundy's Nevada ranch during a standoff earlier this year, police said Monday.

Assistant Sheriff Kevin McMahill said the two suspects, Jerad Miller and his wife, Amanda, had ideology that was along the lines of "militia and white supremacists" and that law enforcement was the "oppressor."

Right-Wing, Teaparty, Bundy Supporter, Nut-cases, with dirtball credentials.

Jerad Miller, 31, was convicted of felony vehicle theft in Washington state, police said. He also had a criminal record in Indiana.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Jun 9, 2014 - 01:31pm PT
well this is sad. Seems the customer shot in Walmart, was a "good guy with a gun".

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/06/08/2-police-officers-shot-in-las-vegas/

Bystander Joseph Robert Wilcox, 31, who was carrying a concealed weapon inside the store, spotted Jerad Miller and told a friend he would confront him, according to authorities. As he neared Jerad, he was shot in the ribs by Amanda and later died, McMahill said.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jun 9, 2014 - 01:35pm PT
I feel sorry for any federal agents that want to come in here and try to push us around or anything like that," he told the news outlet. "I really don't want violence toward them, but if they're gonna come bring violence to us
Just what violence did the federal agents bring to Bundyville?
A little pushing and shoving that could have been caused by the protestors, otherwise
None, Zero, Nilch.

And what did a couple of Las Vegas cops have to do with it anyway? Or the guy at WalMart?
This is the face of nutcase extremism with unlimited access to firearms.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Jun 9, 2014 - 01:40pm PT
Well, it's one thing to rile the Feds and another to rile local cops. If this happened in NYC, there would be hell to pay right now.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jun 9, 2014 - 01:43pm PT
Wayne La Pierre a few days after the Newtown massacre of children and teachers:
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. …
Unfortunately this poor guy at WalMart seemed to believe blatant nonsense.
Didn't work out for him so well.
RIP

Fook the NRA and the dinosaurs they rode in on.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Jun 9, 2014 - 01:48pm PT
This being 2014, there will prolly be a video. Be interesting to see.
He wouldn't have known yet about what went down in the Pizzeria and he prolly would've been blindsided that the female would be the shooter.

It always comes down to this.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
crankster

Trad climber
Jun 9, 2014 - 01:52pm PT
I'm sure this is being discussed over the counter at gun 'n ammo stores by the anti-government militia gang.

On the June 9 edition of The Alex Jones Show, Jones claimed "the country is being purposefully imploded right now," before calling the shootings "absolutely staged." Jones continued stating, "There is so much proof of this being staged yesterday, when I first read about it, and this morning, that my mind exploded with hundreds of data points, and quite frankly it's conclusive." He then claimed that the shooting bore out some of the "hundreds of predictions" that he had made "since the Bundy ranch situation," including a scenario where a shooting is blamed on the Tea Party. Towards the end of the segment, Jones named Sen. Harry Reid (D-NV) and referenced actions by the Obama administration in purporting to identify the actual parties responsible for the Las Vegas police ambush. He concluded, "I kept telling, they're getting ready to false flag, and it happens right in Harry Reid's district, right in his state, right in his city, with his police department":
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jun 9, 2014 - 01:56pm PT
He then claimed that the shooting bore out some of the "hundreds of predictions" that he had made "since the Bundy ranch situation,"
Well isn't he (Alex Jones) the clairvoyant!
And a cheerleader for the Blundyites.
jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Jun 9, 2014 - 02:33pm PT
F*#king idiots. Had they wanted to properly martyrize themselves, they should have trotted on down to their local Fox News station and shot themselves in the head all the while proclaiming Rush Limbaugh told them it's the President's fault, and that they are going after the cops next. That's the proper order of things. I mean, have you ever actually listened to Rush? The sound of his voice alone is enough to cause suicidal tendencies. And take Alex Jones with them.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jun 9, 2014 - 02:56pm PT
They are not starting a revolution. They are pathetic, batsh*t crazy losers who want to play out their sick killing fantasies with the latest death-dealing technology they can get their hands on.

If they really want to protest they should try self-immolation and announce it ahead of time so we can all watch and bring the marshmallows.

Just put them all together on some island and they will eventually get so paranoid they will just wipe eachother out. Problem solved.

End of Rant...
crankster

Trad climber
Jun 9, 2014 - 03:30pm PT
Bundy supporters & natural born killers:


Here is where they stood on Benghazi:

And guns:
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jun 9, 2014 - 04:52pm PT
isolated act
That's a pretty narrow definition of isolated given the number of "militias" and inflammatory websites.

police said Monday the two appeared to be working alone and not part of a larger plot.
That may be true.

After the shooting, the couple headed toward a nearby Wal-Mart, where Jerad Miller was confronted by Joseph Robert Wilcox, 31, of Las Vegas. Wilcox was legally carrying a concealed pistol. Wilcox was unaware that Amanda Miller, who was pushing a shopping cart, was involved in the incident and “lying in wait,” the official said.

She slipped behind Wilcox and shot him at close range.
http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/crime-courts/shooters-carried-arsenal-supplies-sunday-rampage
A good guy with a gun has no chance against 2 bad guys with guns. The Bad guys have the advantages of planning and surprise.
Their bags also contained about 200 rounds of ammunition, knives, first aid supplies, camouflage clothing and military-issued rations known as MREs.
jstan

climber
Jun 9, 2014 - 04:55pm PT
Why was this couple asked to leave?

If they were asked because they were too violent, should not Mr. Bundy have notified the authorities?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jun 9, 2014 - 05:00pm PT
Ammon Bundy, one of Cliven Bundy’s sons, initially told The Associated Press that it is possible the Millers were at the ranch during the standoff with federal agents, but that “we have not found anybody that recognizes them.”

He later told AP that Jerad and Amanda Miller were there but were asked to leave after a few days because they were “very radical” and did not “align themselves” with the protest’s main issues.

“Not very many people were asked to leave,” Bundy said. “I think they may have been the only ones.”
(same source)
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jun 9, 2014 - 05:01pm PT
Jerad Dwain Miller had a lengthy criminal history dating back at least to 2000 that saw him in and out of jail on felony and misdemeanor charges in both Washington and his home state of Indiana.

Jerad Miller also was no stranger to police in Benton County, Wash. District Court records there show he was convicted of obstructing a public officer and DUI in August 2002. In April of that year he was found guilty of assault with intent to cause injury.

In June 2001, he was convicted of third-degree malicious mischief. In February 2001 he was convicted of third-degree theft. In 2000, he was convicted of third-degree malicious mischief.

In 2001, he was convicted in Benton County Superior Court of taking a motor vehicle without permission and harassment.

6 felony convictions in 3 years.
So how did this known felon acquire an arsenal?
And how did he get out of jail the 6th time?
Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Jun 9, 2014 - 05:02pm PT
Not before he got himself in front of the cameras. It's being reported he was asked to leave when he admitted being a felon. This is coming from Bundy's son, so could easily be a lie.

These are Ron's peers. Dangerous creeps.

http://youtu.be/rspbrdSNB8M

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jun 9, 2014 - 05:05pm PT
They are not starting a revolution. They are pathetic, batsh*t crazy losers who want to play out their sick killing fantasies with the latest death-dealing technology they can get their hands on.

If they really want to protest they should try self-immolation and announce it ahead of time so we can all watch and bring the marshmallows.

Just put them all together on some island and they will eventually get so paranoid they will just wipe eachother out. Problem solved.

End of Rant...


Nice rant. Good thing that a Wallmart customer had CCW firearm to stop this thing very quickly.

Without that firearm owner, this thing could have gotten really bad. These 2 people were clearly f*#king crazy and willing to kill lots of people. I spit on their graves...
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jun 9, 2014 - 05:07pm PT
bluey
had CCW firearm to stop this thing very quickly.
Read the entire article I quoted. The poor devil walked into a deliberate trap. They were waiting exactly for an armed Good Citizen like him, or security guards.
Either way he had no chance.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jun 9, 2014 - 05:09pm PT
Well Ron-----yes I know that's a deep subject.

Re your post:
UPDATE: Cliven Bundy's son said the couple who killed two Vegas officers were at the ranch but were asked to leave.

At this point I have been convinced that the Bundy's lie whenever they believe a lie might be of advantage to them.

Based on earlier posts here, it does appear that during the early part of the arrival of the Bundy Ranch militia defenders: the Bundy's were not in a position to decide which of their supporters were too bat-shist crazy to defend them, vs just bat-shist crazy enough to defend them.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jun 9, 2014 - 05:12pm PT
From whom did the Blundy's need defending?
Law enforcement officers attempting to execute a court order?
That's the fundamental question.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jun 9, 2014 - 05:24pm PT
Read the entire article I quoted. The poor devil walked into a deliberate trap. They were waiting exactly for an armed Good Citizen like him, or security guards.
Either way he had no chance.

He'd be alive today if he hadn't been carrying a gun, but instead he exercised his constitutional right be be an idiot. He drank the gun lobby kool-aid all the way down to the bottom of the cup.

Five armed people were killed with guns, no unarmed people were even injured. What does that tell you?

TE


crankster

Trad climber
Jun 9, 2014 - 05:30pm PT
It's no wonder these tragedies happen.
Anti-government views, citizen militias, guns sold to just about anybody, anger..

Sound like anyone you know here?
The kind of rhetoric he spews leads to these events.
Disgusting. Despicable.
crankster

Trad climber
Jun 9, 2014 - 05:40pm PT
Ron, you are a gun totin' extremist and the world would be a better, safer place if you were in custody.
You and the Miller's would have agree on everything.
Their Facebook posts look like your forum history.
Why are you surprised when one of your kind goes off?
crankster

Trad climber
Jun 9, 2014 - 05:48pm PT
One of his Bundy butt buddies goes off and he's surprised.
I'm not.
Ron contributes to the inflammatory rhetoric that is the launch pad for these types of events.
He's a frickin' militia member!!!!!
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jun 9, 2014 - 05:53pm PT
if the repugs want to have an investigation they should drop the bengazi crap and look into why most of the armed aholes from the bundy standoff are not locked up yet.
crankster

Trad climber
Jun 9, 2014 - 06:02pm PT
Change the subject all you want Rifleman Ron.
Here's your buddy at the Ranch.
crankster

Trad climber
Jun 9, 2014 - 06:11pm PT
I know that you are a member of a militia group that went to the Bundy standoff and pointed loaded weapons at federal officers. They only left when they became fearful of a drone strike by Eric Holder.

These are the Oath Keepers
You are a proud member
Quit acting like you're some reasonable responsible person.
You're a frickin' nutjob, the lunatic fringe.
crankster

Trad climber
Jun 9, 2014 - 06:24pm PT
Oh geez, I'll have to get my militia details refined. Your all frickin' NUTS, to me.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jun 9, 2014 - 06:25pm PT
getting all suited up in tac gear and pointing an AK at LEO right in front of a bunch or reporters has zero to do with any shady deals harry reid and the BLM may have done.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 9, 2014 - 06:27pm PT
**Las Vegas cop-killing couple's message of hate


The couple opened fire Sunday in a Las Vegas pizza restaurant and killed two police officers, draping one body with a "don't tread on me" flag and a swastika. On another, they pinned a menacing note, authorities said Monday.


The couple's social media postings serve as an anatomy of their anti-government, pro-gun beliefs. Jerad Miller was particularly prolific about his hate against the government and police authority, often going on screeds against President Obama and gun restrictions.

The couple were part of a growing far-right, anti-government movement that has exploded in followers in recent years, said Mark Potok, senior fellow of the Southern Poverty Law Center, which tracks hate groups.

Fielder said she had heard Jerad Miller make anti-government statements in the past — including a desire to overthrow the government and President Obama and kill police officers — but was not alarmed by them, NBC News reported.


On Facebook, he professed support for Cliven Bundy, the cattle rancher cited for grazing his cattle on public land without a permit. He boasted of spending time at Bundy's ranch during a recent standoff there between armed militia members and federal government agents.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/09/las-vegas-couple-shooting/10248805/


tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jun 9, 2014 - 06:41pm PT
Ron that is all well and good but still has zero legal impact on the gun crimes committed on film.
crankster

Trad climber
Jun 9, 2014 - 06:58pm PT
"No member of my armed militia who were there pointed their weapons at officers"

Do you know how insane this sounds?
Ron, you need psychiatric help now!!!!!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jun 9, 2014 - 07:21pm PT
It's gotten to where a rancher can't even rub one out on his own land without getting shot at...!
crankster

Trad climber
Jun 9, 2014 - 07:35pm PT
This murderous creep - and Rifleman Ron's militia buddies - were only a hair away from opening up on federal officers with assault rifles.

Ron, you loathsome degenerate, burn in hell. I hope you are locked up soon.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jun 9, 2014 - 07:39pm PT
Loathsome degenerate...? That describes most of the people that post here...rj
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jun 9, 2014 - 07:43pm PT
Not to worry crankster....it's the last gasp of "stupid whitemen" who's sense of entiltlement is oozing through their grasping fingers in a world of fast changing demographics that they can't begin to understand. I did say they were stupid.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jun 9, 2014 - 07:47pm PT
Thanks Locker...i submit...I know when i'm licked...
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Jun 9, 2014 - 07:56pm PT
Stinkeye FTMFW
crankster

Trad climber
Jun 9, 2014 - 08:13pm PT
You're as weird as Ron. Drunk postin, no doubt.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jun 9, 2014 - 08:15pm PT
you guys ever consider duking it out with nunchuks? too soft for that sh#t?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jun 9, 2014 - 08:28pm PT
How do you make a potato do anything it doesn't want to?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jun 9, 2014 - 08:55pm PT
it's not just about economics.
Add some fundamentalist christian righteousness and neo-Nazi racism. Stir well with the economic paralysis called Reaganomics. Add a tablespoon of Ruby Ridge, another of Waco and a pinch of Oklahoma City. Reduce rational thought with a big dose of an inadequate education system.
Tell everyone they have a right to unlimited personal firepower.
Simmer for 30+ years
outraged righteousness will boil over.
Talk about Sense Of Entitlement. These morons make liberals look like amateurs at it.
jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Jun 9, 2014 - 08:56pm PT
well the difference is they're fighting for freedom.
jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Jun 9, 2014 - 09:00pm PT
Well that's the question, ain't it.
crankster

Trad climber
Jun 9, 2014 - 09:03pm PT
Republican's were gushing over Bundy before the "Negro" comments. You can't get too extreme for the tea party.

Look for posts here from extremists where law enforcement officers are called FEDS, as if they are an evil entity. The goal is to dehumanizes them, make them a faceless enemy.
Not surprising some nut in their ranks goes off in a blaze of gunfire. I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often.

Note the t-shirt for the radical militia member, Oath Keeper, Sheriff Gordon Martines.

Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jun 9, 2014 - 09:15pm PT
On the plus side of reality----which Ron Angerson has clearly given up on!

Bluering posted this misinformed post earlier tonight, and has not apologized, but has not defended his mis-informed post.

Jun 9, 2014 - 05:05pm PT

They are not starting a revolution. They are pathetic, batsh*t crazy losers who want to play out their sick killing fantasies with the latest death-dealing technology they can get their hands on.

If they really want to protest they should try self-immolation and announce it ahead of time so we can all watch and bring the marshmallows.

Just put them all together on some island and they will eventually get so paranoid they will just wipe eachother out. Problem solved.

End of Rant...


Nice rant. Good thing that a Wallmart customer had CCW firearm to stop this thing very quickly.

Without that firearm owner, this thing could have gotten really bad. These 2 people were clearly f*#king crazy and willing to kill lots of people. I spit on their graves...




Sorry Bluering, your ccw (hidden pistol) guy made a big mistake and now he is dead.

OK! He is a CCW dead hero. Just because you have a CCW pistol doesn't mean you aren't fuking with folks that will shoot you,------while you are trying to be a hero.
jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Jun 9, 2014 - 09:22pm PT
The idea of having a CCW is to make that available as a last line of defense should some crazy as#@&%e with a gun, knife, or other deadly weapon back you into a corner or surprise you with no way out. It gives you the option of shooting back instead of sitting there like a ready-made victim.

It's bad policy to think because you've got a gun and a permit that you should take on law enforcement responsibilities and walk into a fire fight. He did a brave and stupid thing by trying it.

How many of you would have cheered him had he been successful in stopping the perpetrators? Ron for sure, bluering, and that's probably about it. The rest of you would be making fun of "just another f*#king gun nut". But hey, that's not the problem... he's dead so you can just make fun of him. Oh sorry, I mean you just get to make fun of him for being another victim (idiot gun nut, right?) instead of making fun of all the gun nuts with permits for not stepping up. Right?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jun 9, 2014 - 09:28pm PT
It's bad policy to think because you've got a gun and a permit that you should take on law enforcement responsibilities and walk into a fire fight. He did a brave and stupid thing by trying it.
This is true.
Including the brave part.
It's the idiocy of believing a CCW will stop determined criminals.

The young man in Seattle who took down the college shooter was very brave. He took a risk and won. You will note he was smart enough to wait until the shooter had to re-load. And he was in fact armed......with pepper spray.
Suppose the gunman had a bigger magazine? Would the monitor guy have had a chance?
jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Jun 9, 2014 - 09:35pm PT
Remember the guy in the bar in Nevada recently who took out an active shooter?

You're right, that guy was lucky.

Ever take one of those "active shooter" training deals they put on in places like universities for faculty and staff? Pretty much duck and cover. Prepare to fight back. With... um... books and stuff. Hmm...

It's not necessarily a belief that having a CCW is going to stop a shooter, it's having the ability to respond at more than arms-reach.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jun 9, 2014 - 09:46pm PT
jonnyrig! Re your post.

How many of you would have cheered him had he been successful in stopping the perpetrators? Ron for sure, bluering, and that's probably about it. The rest of you would be making fun of "just another f*#king gun nut". But hey, that's not the problem... he's dead so you can just make fun of him. Oh sorry, I mean you just get to make fun of him for being another victim (idiot gun nut, right?) instead of making fun of all the gun nuts with permits for not stepping up. Right?


I would have cheered the now dead hero for being a hero.

I pulled a pistol on a giant crazy man that was breaking into my house, in the long ago, and I then had him beg me to kill him. I did not, and we both backed down, but the whole episode has bothered me ever since it happened.

jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Jun 9, 2014 - 09:59pm PT
Careful with those stories Fritz... this crowd will rip you a new one for being so anecdotal.

Part of what they teach you at a CCW class is that you may face civil liability, PTSD, and financial ruin as a result of shooting someone in self defense. The idea is it's going to be your last-ditch effort to save your life or the life of someone around you. It's not to be taken lightly. It's not an excuse to play hero, or big man. You wanta do that? Be a cop.
John M

climber
Jun 9, 2014 - 10:03pm PT
I guess I'm one of those weirdos whose glad some people have guns, but is worried about how much gun violence that we have in this country. I applauded that person who shot the crazed dude in Arizona. The one who shot the lady politician.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jun 9, 2014 - 10:04pm PT
jonnyrig: thanks for the warning, but I can probably handle it-------- as one of the few Republican, redneck, liberal, Pagan, pro-gun, anti right-wing, anti tea-party nutjobs, Idaho Natives on ST.
jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Jun 9, 2014 - 10:06pm PT
Wait... you're in Idaho? ... and not in the militia? WTF?
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jun 9, 2014 - 10:17pm PT
jonnyrig! Re your comment!

Wait... you're in Idaho? ... and not in the militia? WTF?


I have met, sold product to, and worked with Idaho militia members.

These militia folks have very strange values when compared to normal Americans, and they are actively seeking to destroy the America we love.
jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Jun 9, 2014 - 10:28pm PT
In jest, fritz. Ingest. I think there are a lot of groups that don't really have the best interests of the country at heart, or the freedom of the American people. Not just the militia you've had contact with.
And there are a lot of misguided individuals who think they've got our best interests at heart; but really screw up the execution.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Jun 10, 2014 - 03:42am PT
The consensus in the thread on AR15.com, seems to be, the guy in Walmart saved a lot of lives by slowing them down.

Hard to say. Seems everything is on camera these days. Have to wait for it.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jun 10, 2014 - 05:28am PT
The consensus in the thread on AR15.com, seems to be, the guy in Walmart saved a lot of lives by slowing them down.

It's tough when a fundamental tenet of their gun religion has been shown to be false, they have to adjust the facts to suit their beliefs. The fact is the guy would be alive if he hadn't been carrying. The couple had plenty of opportunity to shoot unarmed civilians, they only wanted LEO's.

TE
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jun 10, 2014 - 05:35am PT
I applauded that person who shot the crazed dude in Arizona. The one who shot the lady politician.

Nobody shot him, he was hit with a chair as he reloaded!

TE
jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Jun 10, 2014 - 07:11am PT
I get confused and post real opinions by accident sometimes.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jun 10, 2014 - 09:32am PT
I get confused and post real opinions by accident sometimes.

Totally unacceptable. It's all about the troll, man.
Binks

climber
Uranus
Jun 10, 2014 - 09:38am PT
F*#k the NRA, f*#k gun rights. There is a mass shooting every other week ore more because of this permissive insanity. I don't give a flying f*#k about the Constitutional amendment. Amend it again.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jun 10, 2014 - 09:52am PT
If the body count has anything to do with the success of your attempt to amend the Constitution, your best chance would have been in about '95, because the body count has declined by about 40% since then.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Jun 10, 2014 - 10:08am PT
Yunno, AR15.com, is more entertaining on this guntard stuff.

You guise on the right, have totally missed this. Seems the Feds,sent an "agent provecteur" to the Bundy circus.

Well he provoked all right and two Police Officers are dead. Where's the outrage?

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1613472_Eric_Parker_from_central_Idaho__watch_your_cornhole.html


HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jun 10, 2014 - 10:10am PT
Chaz posted
If the body count has anything to do with the success of your attempt to amend the Constitution, your best chance would have been in about '95, because the body count has declined by about 40% since then.

Chaz is right. Firearm homicides spiked in the 90's peaking at around 16,000. Since then they have dropped to a totally acceptable 11,000 in 2010. Problem solved!
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jun 10, 2014 - 11:18am PT
Well he provoked all right and two Police Officers are dead. Where's the outrage?

I'm on the left, and I'm outraged. A convicted felon was among those at the Bundy ranch, he gave his real name on TV and was still at large two months later. If there aren't more arrests very soon, I'll be pissed.

TE
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jun 10, 2014 - 11:26am PT
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/when-australians-gave-back-their-guns/2013/08/23/108458dc-0c09-11e3-8974-f97ab3b3c677_story.html


As we continue our decline to third world status.

Thanks to likes of Rong, his radical cohorts and the religious right.


HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jun 10, 2014 - 11:37am PT
Australia is a very good example of a country coming to it's senses.
And it has worked. From Bob D'As article
There had been 11 gun massacres in the decade preceding 1996, but there have been no mass shootings since. This is a source of national pride, though statisticians still argue about what caused the change.
WBraun

climber
Jun 10, 2014 - 11:58am PT
OMFG !!!! It's all Rong's fault!!!!

Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong

And more Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong

You people are obsessive and insane ......
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jun 10, 2014 - 12:06pm PT
High Traverse writes:

"Australia is a very good example of a country coming to it's senses."




How are tough gun laws working in Mexico?

How do you know toughening the gun laws won't have the same negative effect here as they've had in Mexico? Especially when our population has much more in common with Mexico than with Australia.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jun 10, 2014 - 12:15pm PT
How do you know toughening the gun laws won't have the same negative effect here as they've had in Mexico? Especially when our population has much more in common with Mexico than with Australia.

Australia and the US have functional police and judicial systems, Mexico doesn't have either.

TE


Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 10, 2014 - 12:16pm PT
How do you know toughening the gun laws won't have the same negative effect here as they've had in Mexico?

well, one good reason is that the US is not Mexico

secondly, we already know very clearly from individual state firearm laws that there is a direct correlation laws and firearm deaths

for example: Massachusettes has the most restrictive gun laws and the least firearm deaths

example: Alaska has the least restrictive gun laws and the most gun deaths

per capita, of course
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jun 10, 2014 - 12:46pm PT
So the cows are still there but now the feds don't care?
Don't put your money on it.
crankster

Trad climber
Jun 10, 2014 - 01:14pm PT
OMFG !!!! It's all Rong's fault!!!!

Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong

And more Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong Rong

You people are obsessive and insane
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 10, 2014 - 01:19pm PT
Hello, hello
Turn your radio on
Is there anybody out there...
Tell me what went wrong...

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Life is a strange thing
Just when you think you learnt how to use it
It's gone...
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jun 10, 2014 - 01:27pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
John M

climber
Jun 10, 2014 - 01:53pm PT
Nobody shot him, he was hit with a chair as he reloaded!

TE

Doh!

what caliber of a chair was it? I need to get me a high powered chair.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jun 10, 2014 - 02:01pm PT
Hi capacity magazine

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jun 10, 2014 - 02:06pm PT
I believe every American should have unlimited access to chairs for defense.
John M

climber
Jun 10, 2014 - 02:07pm PT
I had no idea chairs were so dangerous. The papers say 27 people died in this melee.


they were using T-shirt piercing ammunition


John M

climber
Jun 10, 2014 - 02:12pm PT
Here is another shot of someone taking out a gunman with a smith and wesson semi auto folding chair. With one guy using a 14 gauge fire extinguisher.



John M

climber
Jun 10, 2014 - 02:13pm PT
whoa.. talk about escalation! LOL
John M

climber
Jun 10, 2014 - 02:16pm PT

Chairs are multi purpose too. They can be used to obtain the high ground.


I believe that there would be less violence if everyone carried a chair with them.
crankster

Trad climber
Jun 10, 2014 - 02:51pm PT
stalking leg humper

Careful, Spike, at your age you could blow a gasket.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Jun 10, 2014 - 03:26pm PT


[Click to View YouTube Video]
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jun 10, 2014 - 04:32pm PT
A barstool makes a decent improvised weapon. Unlike a pool cue, I've never had to hit anybody twice with a barstool.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 10, 2014 - 08:11pm PT
I'm shocked that unhinged racist murderers were Bundy sympathizers.
crankster

Trad climber
Jun 11, 2014 - 05:40am PT
The Las Vegas Killers were welcomed with open arms by the Gang of Crazy Loons at the Bundy Showdown. Only after a few days did they ask them to leave.

There's not much difference between The Killers and the rest of the Militia Extremists (including Ron).

Whipped into a frenzy by Fox and the talk yakkers that only need a small spark to be set off.

They have hair triggers. Manipulated into believing any and all Conspiracy Theories. Dangerous Lunatics.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Jun 11, 2014 - 07:11am PT
Manipulated into believing any and all Conspiracy Theories.

We usta put our loonies into asylums. Now we sell them guns. See the problem? But the planet is overpopulated anyway. So it's ok. Since I can't do jack about it, I think I'm gonna relax more if I buy moar popcorn and enjoy the show.

In a related note, it's good explosives weren't covered by the 2d Ammendment. Then we'd look like the Middle east.
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Jun 11, 2014 - 07:24am PT
If you outlaw chairs, only outlaws will have chairs!










And the rest of us will be less comfortable
crankster

Trad climber
Jun 18, 2014 - 06:35am PT
The Bundy support group is at it agin...

The man accused of shooting two law enforcement members in California, including a Bureau of Land Management ranger, has had at least one previous run-in with law enforcement and has described himself as the target of a massive government conspiracy.

Brent Douglas Cole, 60, was named by the Nevada County Sheriff's Office on Monday as the suspect in Saturday's shooting that also left him wounded.

Anna Ferguson, assistant district attorney for Nevada County, confirmed to TPM that Cole was also facing misdemeanor charges in Nevada County Superior Court for allegedly carrying a loaded firearm. He was charged on Jan. 26.

On Tuesday, the Union newspaper in Grass Valley, Calif., published an article that quoted from court documents in the case. The documents showed Cole believed he was the target of a massive conspiracy:

Officers acted without warrant or any probable cause to seize my person using a swat team style assault, and then started looking for something to charge me with. I was attacked and molested, unconstitutionally arrested, unlawfully incarcerated, repeatedly intimidated and coerced to plead guilty to having committed a crime, held in secret for five days, and my property and liberty taken from me since January 26, 2014. I am being persecuted for being a gun owner, and for exercising my inherent Right by unwitting or unknowing accomplices of a seditious conspiracy against rights instituted by foreign powers inimical to the United States of America.
That's in line with online profiles, reviewed by TPM, that appear to belong to Cole and suggest someone obsessed with multiple conspiracy theories, including 9/11 trutherism, fluoridated water and anti-semitic beliefs.

The Southern Poverty Law Center, in research shared with TPM on Tuesday afternoon, linked Cole to an online profile in which he described himself as "a sovereign American Citizen attempting to thwart the obvious conspiracy and subterfuges of powers inimical to the United States."

"Sovereigns believe that they -- not judges, juries, law enforcement or elected officials -- get to decide which laws to obey and which to ignore, and they don't think they should have to pay taxes," the SPLC has written in its summary of sovereign citizen beliefs.

Someone using the name Brent Douglas Cole uploaded Google documents that were purportedly filed in his defense for the January arrest. Those documents have not been independently verified by TPM, but they carry the same case number as the firearms case.

In the documents, Cole described himself as "a statutory Attorney General of the United States" and claimed the California law under which he had been charged violated the Second Amendment. He also spelled his name in a manner typical of members of the sovereign citizens movement, using lowercase letters and unusual punctuation: "brent-douglas: cole."

A Facebook profile attributed to a Brent Cole, and which also linked to the alleged documents in the firearms case, included this quote from June 5:

"The conviction of police that they are endowed with the authority and authorization to to whatever they wish to do to anyone, without any justification, and incur no liability or culpability for criminal acts committed must end."

Cole also posted a number of news articles on Facebook sympathetic to the Bundy Ranch militia, including a April 16 post about "an Infowars expose connecting the land grab to Harry Reid and a Chinese-backed solar farm."
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jun 18, 2014 - 06:44am PT
You can't just arrest a statutory Attorney General like that! This is America!

Sovereign citizens would be the most entertaining group ever if it wasn't for all the shooting innocent people and wasting government resources.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jun 19, 2014 - 08:24am PT
When sovereign citizens meet the court system

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jun 19, 2014 - 08:36am PT
Hilarious and pathetic all at the same time.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jun 19, 2014 - 08:49am PT
Ernie went to trial on charges of fishing without a license. He was convicted and fined 150 bucks. A fishing license will cost you that much in California

http://www.krtv.com/news/manhattan-man-found-guilty-by-jury-removed-from-court-during-hearing/
crazymountaingoat

Big Wall climber
modesto, ca
Jun 19, 2014 - 10:24am PT
I hate this idea that you haven't DONE anything for your country unless you go to war or 'serve' in the military.
Not to lessen the sacrifices that have been made by so many, but there are better ways to 'serve'.

That 'natural man' was something else. We could have 'served' him much better by providing him a decent education and food so he didn't have to fish w/o a licence.

Funny but Sad and scary at the same time.

Anyone else feel like we are living out the movie Idiocracy?
Dumber and dumber by the generation.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jun 19, 2014 - 10:58am PT
I happen to FULLY support the Dept of wildlife here

Ron,

From this statement and others, I assume that you aren't one of these sovereign citizen types. I've been curious as to the beliefs of your militia for some time. There are sooo many different militias.

You were a fed LEO, right? These are the guys that the Bundy's hate.

I'm not knocking you for it, and I believe the bundies, with their sovereign citizen ideas are pretty whacky.

So why start a militia? I can understand why somebody would want to, but what was your reason?

BTW, having fun plinking with my new 10-22. Finding ammo is a bitch.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jun 19, 2014 - 11:02am PT
The "Natural Man" was interesting because he was fighting for his rights to do things like forage. Some might call it dumpster diving, but I don't think that the cops should put too much effort into stopping it.

Yeah, he sounded like a nut, but some of these people convey some pretty weird, but interesting, ideas.

Hell, the FBI can crawl through your garbage all that they want without breaking any laws. I think that this is what Natural Man was doing.

It is pretty funny to see a basically homeless guy torture a court room like that though.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jun 19, 2014 - 11:09am PT
The Natural Man was "foraging", which may sound a bit like dumpster diving, in fact he was fishing without a license.

Early on in the video he makes a fleeting reference to the gold fringe on the flag. The gold fringe flag theory is a big sovereign conspiracy on its own

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/flag.htm

Flags
GOLD FRINGED FLAG

The flags displayed in State courts and courts of the United States have gold or yellow fringes. That is your WARNING that you are entering into a foreign enclave, the same as if you are stepping into a foreign embassy and you will be under the jurisdiction of that flag. The flag with the gold or yellow fringe has no constitution, no laws, and no rules of court, and is not recognized by any nation on the earth, and is foreign to you and the United States of America. more information

MILITARY FLAG WITH THE GOLD FRINGE

Martial Law Flag "Pursuant to 4 U.S.C. chapter 1, §§1, 2, & 3; Executive Order 10834, August 21, 1959; 24 F.R.6865; a military flag is a flag that resembles the regular flag of the United States, except that it has a YELLOW FRINGE border on three sides. The President of the United States designates this deviation from the regular flag, by executive order, and in his capacity as Commander-in-Chief of the military. The placing of a fringe on the national flag, the dimensions of the flag and the arrangement of the stars in the union are matters of detail not controlled by statute, but are within the discretion of the President as Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy." 34 Ops. Atty. Gen. 83.

President, Dwight David Eisenhower, by Executive Order No.10834, signed on August 21, 1959 and printed in the Federal Register at 24 F.R. 6865, pursuant to law, stated that: "A military flag is a flag that resembles the regular flag of the United States, except that it has a yellow fringe border on three sides."
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jun 19, 2014 - 11:45am PT
OK. Thanks Ron.

I was curious. There are so damn many types of militia and patriot groups.

On its face, a "good" militia group could actually be done. If they are well trained, they could be used in natural disasters and the like.

On the other hand, the fragmented nature of the groups leeds to the occasional bad thing. Remember the Arizona Minutemen? They got in to trouble in their attempt to fortify the border.

As to the state of the border:

I used to travel to SW Arizona every New Years for a few weeks and do these 6-10 day hikes across or around Cabeza Prieta NWR. It was one of Ed Abbey's favorite spots, and he is apparently buried there.

For the first few years, back in the early nineties, it was no biggie. You would run into Border Patrol out there now and then, but it was all pretty nice. Then a ranger from Organ Pipe was murdered by a drug smuggle. I showed up that year and the tiny staff of the Refuge in Ajo were all packing pistols. These were mainly biologists.

From that point on it was all out war. Although Cabeza Prieta being one of the last truly lonely and pretty stretch of the Sonoran Desert still standing, nobody went in there anymore. You would get hassled by guys from black helicopters. The Border Patrol was everywhere, and the chopper was constantly tracking people. I never ran into anyone myself, but the tracks and zillion empty plastic water bottles made it look like a garbage dump from above.

There are border checkpoints and a very heavy hand of the Border Patrol there. Despite the big fence, they still get through almost daily.

Since owning guns in Mexico is illegal or something, Edward Abbey suggested that every person that we pick up should be shod, clothed, well fed and treated, and then given a rifle and ammo on the return to Mexico.

Let the Mexicans fix Mexico. They have ruined Cabeza Prieta, which was one of my favorite places in the world.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jun 19, 2014 - 12:18pm PT
Our gun rights are under no danger. The NRA has a stranglehold on the Republicans, and they will never allow any gun control. We may see it in certain cities and states. You need several guns to live in Alaska. You do not in Chicago.

I was at the gun store the other day and it took me 30 minutes to do the paperwork. There are so many tiny little concealed carry pistols that it is mindblowing. BITD, a gun shop didn't have that many weapons. Now it is like freaking Wal-Mart.

My observation then is that there is no risk to gun ownership in this country.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jun 19, 2014 - 12:30pm PT
You are correct Base....we will indeed remain the laughingstock of the civilized world for the foreseeable future.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jun 19, 2014 - 12:37pm PT
One of the main reasons USFS and BLM agents now dress in kevlar vests with side arms, rifles and stacks of magazines is the fact that the feds also let in a very undesirable contention of illegals and the fact that after 911, the control of those armed officers went from a district level to a washington level with new directives and policies which has changed their tactics and responsibility's ..

Seems to me the reason they are wearing kevlar is the presence of heavily armed nutjobs drawing down on them.

LAPD used to ride around with nothing but .38s, then came the North Hollywood shootout, and the NRA's defense of every crook and freak in the country to be armed to the hilt.
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Jun 19, 2014 - 01:13pm PT
now why did this song just come to mind?


I was five and he was six
We rode on horses made of sticks
He wore black and I wore white
He would always win the fight

Bang bang, he shot me down
Bang bang, I hit the ground
Bang bang, that awful sound
Bang bang, my baby shot me down



fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jun 19, 2014 - 01:13pm PT
Our gun rights are under no danger. The NRA has a stranglehold on the Republicans, and they will never allow any gun control. We may see it in certain cities and states. ......

My observation then is that there is no risk to gun ownership in this country.

We've just been raped in CT as far as gun rights go..... CT's recent abomination turned a lot of innocent people into felons overnight.
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Jun 19, 2014 - 01:32pm PT
locker's dominant slave gene coloring his thoughts as usual
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jun 19, 2014 - 02:17pm PT
We've just been raped in CT as far as gun rights go.....

I guess states rights only apply when it is convenient?
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Jun 19, 2014 - 02:57pm PT
Wait a sec Ron. You got a NEW one, or one through the Civilian Marksmanship Program.


edit; I guess it was a new one.
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Jun 19, 2014 - 03:19pm PT
Nice Ron. Of course I wasn't looking, but I had no idea someone was currently producing the M1. I sure think the older ones handle nice.
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Jun 19, 2014 - 03:29pm PT
Thanks for the info, Ron.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jun 19, 2014 - 03:52pm PT
Well, which is it, Ron? California sucks for gun owners, or California is where Nevadans go to buy their military style weapons? Ammo is expensive, or ammo is cheap?

Make up your mind, dammit! :-)
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jun 19, 2014 - 04:12pm PT
Ron posted
Ahh yes more uneeded an ineffectual legislation,, and IRONIC that Conn and Mass are where hundreds of thousands of guns and magazines and ammo are made each year. You just cant get them THERE.. But they will be happy to ship to your door elsewhere...

Where is my new M 1 made? Worcester Mass.

Why are you trusting your protection to liberal guns?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jun 19, 2014 - 04:28pm PT
Ron posted
And i DOUBT there are many liberals working at Auto Ordinance, but i can only assume you think everyone in Mass is a liberal.. More erroneous assumptions that make your weak attempt at insults seem riddled with stupidity..

Ron Anderson taking a stand on generalizing people. You heard it here first. Ron and his militia don't allow that kind of thing. They also have a tough time with irony.

Ron posted
My militia is involved in a a neighborhood watch and here in mound house, the crime rate has dwindled as well as the gang tagging- which has now been eradicated.

Note that the crime rate statistics are gathered in the same way as Ron gathers unemployment statistics: walking into a bar on a weekday and yelling "who here got graffitied recently?"
crankster

Trad climber
Jun 19, 2014 - 05:23pm PT
There are many other reasons why i co-formed a small militia here locally.

It is not possibly to take a person seriously when they use this in a sentence.
It's nuts, pure and simple.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jun 19, 2014 - 06:08pm PT
Crankster! RE your cruel assertion about Ron!

There are many other reasons why i co-formed a small militia here locally.

It is not possibly to take a person seriously when they use this in a sentence.
It's nuts, pure and simple.


I don't think it (or Ron) can be so easily categorized.

That said: they ain't my people and I don't have any friends in a militia.

From my experiences selling outdoor gear to those folks: their number one trait is a real distrust of everything related to government, and a big dose of paranoia. They also think they are leaders, but turn out to be followers of some more articulate fellow paranoid.

A good dose of Evangelical Christian-belief/guilt usually helps them to not question their leaders, or their beliefs.

Of course, it is interesting that Ron hasn't brought God into his postings, that I recall. Thus far.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jun 19, 2014 - 07:02pm PT
johnnyrig posted
Yes, I'm sure all the rest of you are experts on Ron's neighborhood, as you've clearly studied the statistics. Naturally, by similar logic, you wouldn't have a clue what's going on in yours.

No you're right. Whatever people's perception of a problem or of their impact on that problem matches up with reality every time.
crankster

Trad climber
Jun 19, 2014 - 07:11pm PT
Hey, Hon, since we just moved here we should go to the Neighborhood Watch meeting tonight and meet our neighbors!

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jun 19, 2014 - 07:40pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
overwatch

climber
Jul 7, 2014 - 11:11am PT
Seems like an on topic post from end wrecker...disguises for the anti-governmentals
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 14, 2014 - 03:19pm PT
Drug and Weapon charges. No wonder they don't want to acknowledge the government.

http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/bundy-son-facing-arrest-in-separate-criminal-case
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 14, 2014 - 04:10pm PT
Weapon theft?
Opiate addiction?

Poster boy for the right wing whackos. Even better than Rush Limberger.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jul 14, 2014 - 04:56pm PT
That's awesome, Cliven's kid is a doper.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jul 14, 2014 - 06:57pm PT
Per the above posts and the link from Stahlbro.

http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/bundy-son-facing-arrest-in-separate-criminal-case

LAS VEGAS (AP) — The adult son of a Nevada rancher who hosted armed protesters against federal agents in a cattle roundup dispute in April acknowledged Monday that he faces arrest in a separate criminal case stemming from his felony conviction on burglary and weapon charges.


Cliven Lance Bundy, 34, said during a telephone interview with The Associated Press that he knows he's named in a contempt-of-court warrant issued July 8 in Las Vegas for failing to appear before a Clark County District Court judge who oversees a drug diversion program.

"I'm trying to get ahold of my counselor to see what I'm supposed to do," said Lance Bundy, who is not currently represented by a lawyer.

Bundy said he underwent outpatient surgery the day the warrant was issued and has been recuperating at his parents' home in Bunkerville, about 80 miles northeast of Las Vegas.

The court record shows Bundy missed several previous hearings, and that officials said they were unable to reach him to notify him of court dates.

He could face two to eight years in state prison if he is found in violation of terms of the five years' probation imposed after he pleaded guilty in February 2013 to felony burglary and weapon theft charges.

Bundy attributed his conviction to an addiction to opiate pain killers, and said he has been getting counseling.

Bundy's parents, Cliven and Carol Bundy, said they thought their son obtained medical releases from the court-ordered drug program.


Yes! Another "poster-child" for the right-wing---wingnuts to love. After all, he stole weapons. What's Rong with that?

Anything is all-right if you are far-right & supported by Rong!

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 4, 2014 - 02:25pm PT
From the "It ain't over till it's over" department.
The Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility organization.
They have published a Dept of Homeland Security Intelligence Assessment on the increased risk of domestic violence arising from or related to Bundyville.
http://www.peer.org/news/news-releases/2014/07/31/extremist-anti-government-militias-on-the-rise/
An Intelligence Assessment from the U.S. Department of Homeland Security dated July 22, 2014, titled “Domestic Violent Extremists Pose Increased Threat to Government Officials and Law Enforcement,” notes that, “After years of only sporadic violence from violent domestic extremists motivated by anti-government ideologies, I&A (Office of Intelligence and Analysis) has seen a spike within the past year in violence. Based upon reports from state and federal law enforcement reports, this Assessment finds:

“I&A assesses that perceived victory by militia extremists in a show of force against the Department of Interior’s Bureau of Land Management (BLM) in Nevada in April will likely inspire additional anti-government violence over the next year.”
“I&A also assesses that the recent murders of two Las Vegas police officers is the latest and most severe in a growing trend of anti-government violence…” and
The “perceived victory” from the Bundy stand-off “is galvanizing some individuals – particularly militia extremists and violent lone offenders – to actively confront law enforcement officials, increasing the likelihood of violence.”
The complete Intelligence Assessment published in July is here:
http://www.peer.org/assets/docs/blm/7_31_14_DHS_assessment.pdf

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 4, 2014 - 04:28pm PT
couchmaster
I made no claims or comment. I simply quoted some important information.

However you goad me into making a comment.
Isn't it ironic that many who were so eager for a Dept Of Homeland Security when Al Queda was the threat are now so quick to ascribe ulterior motives to that department when a domestic terrorist threat is identified?
Or what really was your point?
WBraun

climber
Sep 4, 2014 - 04:36pm PT
Here is your domestic and world terrorist threats. These guys are number one and destroyed millions and millions of lives and still doing it.




Stooopid Americans ......
thebravecowboy

climber
strugglin' to make time to climb
Sep 4, 2014 - 05:07pm PT
so what are you doing about it Werner? what did you do when they were in office of power? blame stupid americans?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 4, 2014 - 05:11pm PT
i'm guessing the answer to that question is "same thing as you, man,"
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Sep 4, 2014 - 06:14pm PT
I bet you still get the pleasure of paying property taxes 365 days a year, eh Johnny? Got anything to climb down that way? Trade you a bag of apples for a route next week.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Sep 5, 2014 - 10:09am PT
It says nothing there about camping in a tent!

I've no idea whether that means tents are prohibited or allowed, but if you're in a tent, or sleeping in the open air (like the cows do), that regulation couldn't possibly apply.

TE
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Sep 5, 2014 - 10:49am PT
johnyrig - sounds like you got seduced by the cheap price of a big chunk of land. I think the moral of the story is to do your homework. There are lots of cheap pieces of land, even here in expensive San Diego county, usually cheap for a reason. Access and zoning being the biggies.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Sep 5, 2014 - 12:47pm PT
Many of the owners of those cheap parcels are now making a lot of money off them,
selling them as mitigation land for developments elsewhere,
or selling them to conservation buyers.

But my question,
since hunting season is approaching in Nevada,
how do I get a gutted cow up on the roof?


open range conflicts
http://www.publiclandsranching.org/htmlres/openrange_press3.htm

http://lompocrecord.com/news/local/cattle-rancher-offered-compensation-by-chp/article_6a543542-6b3f-521c-aeae-36d7c42e5560.html
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Sep 6, 2014 - 11:13am PT
Well then enjoy your cow poop too! :)


http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/243/later-that-same-day?act=1#play
doughnutnational

Gym climber
its nice here in the spring
Sep 6, 2014 - 11:33am PT
Put in a spring box and a pipe to a trough and your fencing project might be minimal.
hashbro

Trad climber
Mental Physics........
Sep 18, 2014 - 12:12am PT
http://www.sacbee.com/2014/09/14/6700088/spencer-lennard-subsidies-turn.html


Subsidies turn Emigrant Wilderness into grazing nightmare

By Spencer Lennard

Special to The Bee

Published: Sunday, Sep. 14, 2014 - 12:00 am

Several friends and I recently embarked on what we hoped would be a wilderness adventure in California’s high country. What we found was nothing like that.

When we picked up the wilderness permit for our hike in the Emigrant Wilderness in the Stanislaus National Forest, we envisioned the Sierra high country to be wonderful fish and wildlife habitat lined with huge, picturesque ponderosa pines and white granite cliffs. The otherwise helpful rangers made no mention of the ecosystem wreckage we were about to encounter.

Instead of the pristine trout creek we expected, the otherwise spectacular Kennedy Creek was lined with thousands of steaming piles of cow dung, swarms of black flies, cow-trampled banks and waterways and green algae-filled water. Instead of what should have been lush, wildflower-strewn meadows at Kennedy Lake, we sunk into a green quagmire of muck created by a steady stream of cows cooling themselves in the shallows.

As we scurried to get above the algae-clogged Kennedy Lake, we encountered several fly fishers, horse packers, photographers and hikers – all aghast and expressing the same sense of disappointment as we were. Why would the National Forest Service and the California legislative delegation continue the taxpayer-subsidized damage to some of the state’s best sub-alpine habitat, especially here, in this increasingly popular recreational area?

As we swatted flies and stepped over the excrement, we were struck by the notion that this hiker’s paradise should not be a taxpayer-subsidized feedlot. We understood that grazing allotments were grandfathered into many wilderness bills – obviously including the Emigrant Wilderness – when they were designated as such. We know that policy change is slower than molasses, especially when ranching culture and environmental issues are being discussed. But we could not understand how the U.S. Forest Service and California’s blue congressional delegation could let such taxpayer-subsidized harm continue to degrade one of our most preciously beautiful places, especially when species and habitat loss are also at stake.

Holding our noses from the stench of urine and feces, we asked ourselves, “Why is this occurring in our diminishing wilderness, some of the best fish and wildlife habitat left in the Sierra?”

According to the National Public Lands Grazing Campaign, grazing programs operated by the U.S. Forest Service and the Bureau of Land Management receive an annual taxpayer subsidy of almost $445 million to facilitate a program that doesn’t benefit the public, wildlife or the land. This defacement of our national treasures is occurring just so a few ranchers can cash in their welfare checks.

Private, unirrigated rangeland in the West rents for an average of $11.90 per cow and calf, while monthly grazing fees on federal lands are currently a paltry $1.35. Despite the extreme damage done, western federal rangelands account for less than 3 percent of all forage fed to livestock in the United States. If all livestock were removed from public lands in the West, beef prices would be unaffected.

Cattle destroy native vegetation, damage soils and stream banks, and contaminate waterways with fecal waste. After decades of livestock grazing, once-lush streams and riparian forests have been reduced to flat, dry wastelands; once-rich topsoil has been turned to dust, causing soil erosion, stream sedimentation and wholesale elimination of some aquatic habitats. The now cow-trodden ecosystem has been robbed of its natural function, as is painfully evident on the landscape.

Keystone predators like the grizzly bear and wolf were driven to near extinction in western ecosystems by “predator control” programs designed to protect the livestock industry. Adding insult to injury – and flying in the face of modern conservation science – the livestock industry remains the leading stodgy opponent to otherwise popular efforts to reintroduce species like the Mexican gray wolf in Arizona and New Mexico.

It is clear that the true cost of this archaic land mismanagement is also risking harm to the human communities below. The federal grazing program actually harms the local economy in favor of a few ranchers. Recreationists like us will NOT return to the Kennedy Lake drainage till the cows are removed. We’ll warn our friends and they’ll tell theirs. The depressed foothill towns of Sonora, Twain Harte and Columbia will receive far less revenue from hikers, horse packers and fishers if no effort is made to reclaim our public wilderness from the cows.

I am hopeful that precious wilderness like the Emigrant will soon be appreciated for its scenic, ecological and spiritual values instead of the pittance grazing provides for a few.

Spencer Lennard is an avid hiker, mountaineer and public lands advocate who lives in Oregon.

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2014/09/14/6700088/spencer-lennard-subsidies-turn.html#storylink=cpy

hashbro

Trad climber
Mental Physics........
Sep 18, 2014 - 12:17am PT
September 08, 2014
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Buying Out A Swindle
Wild West Welfare
by WILLIAM WILLERS

“The western cattle industry has been riding the backs of taxpayers for nearly seventy years”

–T.H. Watkins, 2002

Few have profited more or longer off of American taxpayers than livestock operators who graze the public lands of the American West. Tens of thousands of square miles there have, for more than three quarters of a century, been managed essentially as grazing estates for a small minority of “permittees” – individuals or corporations holding federal grazing permits.

The scheme dates back to the Taylor Grazing Act of 1934 when the U.S. Bureau of Land Management (BLM, known at the time as the Grazing Service) placed millions of acres into “grazing allotments”. Over ensuing generations politics influenced regulations, so that permittees pay a trivial fraction of market demand. Laws typically mandate that allotments be grazed, so that if someone were to acquire a permit with the idea of protecting the land by removing domestic livestock, the permit would have to be transferred to an interest that would continue grazing.

The standard unit of measure is an “animal unit per month (AUM) – a cow plus calf or 5 sheep. To graze livestock on private land today in Montana costs $21 per AUM, but permittees pay $1.35, an imbalance typical for the public lands throughout the West. The difference, money due taxpayers, marks a unique welfare system carefully kept away from public awareness. This is not a petty issue. The BLM alone has 155 million acres in grazing allotments, and the U.S. Forest Service grazes another 95 million acres of national forest land. Together, it amounts to 8% of the contiguous United States, an area that, if seen as a square, would be 625 miles on a side – equal in extent to Montana, Wyoming and both Dakotas combined.

It is a bitter irony that the corporate world and its congressional agents, intent on killing governmental regulations so that their imaginary “free market” can go forth unhindered, protect public land welfare ranchers at taxpayer expense. If a free market is truly central to conservative philosophy, should not conservative legislators be working to guarantee that We The People get paid what the free market demands for use of our public lands, instead of a pittance?

Permits are simply 10-year leases subject to termination, and permittees lease nothing but grazing rights. Permits do not convey any property rights, and permittees are not due any compensation should permits be terminated or reduced. But for generations permits have been renewed automatically without question so that permittees, such as Cliven Bundy of recent fame, have come to think of public land they graze as a kind of personal property. So ingrained is the assumption that the welfare will be permanent that ranches have been sold as if public lands under permit were a fixed part of the ranch itself, and it is not uncommon for US citizens to be run off of their own public land by permittees, sometimes at gunpoint.

The situation has become even more senseless in the last 25 years or so, in that permittees are being paid lavish sums to “sell” their grazing permits (which, understand, they never owned in the first place) where grazing is especially damaging, where there are efforts to protect wilderness values, or, amazingly, if a permittee simply wants to retire. Permits funded by taxpayers and meant only as a privilege subject to termination, can now be “bought out”, which amounts to a double jackpot for permittees.

A startling example of the practice was an 850,000-acre buyout in 2004, in Utah-Arizona, with grazing allotments in both BLM and national forest lands, for which the seller received a whopping $4.5 million. The buyers, the Grand Canyon Trust and the Conservation Fund, are major promoters of the buyout philosophy that, ironically, is being called “free-market environmentalism”, a startling misnomer in that it rewards a blatant welfare system.

An email earlier this year to one of the trusts involved in that exchange was answered with “Permits were assumed as part of the acquisition of the ranch – meaning, the Trust did not buy-out the permits, but continues to operate under those permits.” Whoa! “The Ranch” the seller actually owned was only 1000 acres, and one is supposed to believe that 1000 acres of desert is what $4.5 million was paid for … and, oh, by the way, permits for 850,000 acres (1300 square miles) were incidental, so, technically, it was not a buyout? Please! The purchase was obviously for access to the permits. But even though the allotments are now under the control of those conservation organizations, the land must nevertheless be managed for grazing, as the law demands. The only difference, presumably, is that the new permittees will treat the land differently.

If the goal of this “technically not a buyout” buyout was to manage grazing on public land allotments in a more environmentally appropriate way … which naturally suggests it was not being managed well by the original permittee (who is now $4.5 million richer) … why, logical citizen-owners of public land might ask, were the BLM and Forest Service not enforcing a gentler treatment of the public’s land with the previous permittee?

More recently, an April 22, 2014 Wall Street Journal article described an Arizona rancher who had been “having difficulties with hikers and other land users on the allotment” [i.e., citizen owners of the land], receiving several hundred thousand dollars in 2003 from the Conservation Fund in exchange for his permit to graze 44,000 acres of public land. This the Journal reported as a positive outcome: “No violence, no protesters, no armed federal agents – just a check and a contract.” In other words, if U.S. citizens don’t want trouble from permittees they have been supporting financially for generations, they need to understand that these welfare ranchers, many extremely wealthy, expect to be paid yet more. To add to the insanity of it all, many permittees who have benefited for so long from governmental/taxpayer largesse, nevertheless despise “Big Government”.

The BLM, and the U.S. Forest Service are under no legal obligation to renew permits and could simply terminate them, but, as explained to me in less than great depth, “They just don’t”. As to why not, “Permittees don’t want their permits revoked”. Well, why would they? Living large off of taxpayers is a hell of a great deal, and permittees have wielded such political clout that western congressional representatives protect them. The whole setup simply reeks of rot.

Political clout extends into many western environmental organizations. George Wuerthner, who once worked for the Greater Yellowstone Coalition, wrote in a recent issue of The Wildlife News that “GYC expressly forbade me to discuss livestock production’s contribution to the issues that the organization was highlighting; ….. [W]hen I was asked to discuss the threats to the ecosystem at the organization’s annual board meeting, I was not allowed to mention livestock production even though many of the issues the group was fighting could be traced back to ranching as the ultimate source of the environmental problem. Whether it was dewatering of rivers for irrigation and its detrimental impacts of fisheries, to the spread of disease from domestic sheep to wild bighorn sheep, from the killing of bison that wandered from Yellowstone Park to opposition to wolf recovery to the continued policy of elk feed grounds in Wyoming, the ultimate source of the problem was and is livestock. However, GYC was unwilling to frame the issue that way for fear of antagonizing its board and/or regional politicians.”

Livestock grazing is a major function of some governmental bureaus, particularly of the BLM, so that any reduction of the livestock program would naturally undercut the bureaucratic need to self-perpetuate. In order to promote public lands grazing, the BLM relies heavily on proclaiming its role in maintaining a lifestyle, seemingly as if it were the Bureau’s patriotic imperative: “Livestock grazing on public lands … provides livestock-based economic opportunities … while contributing to the West’s, and America’s, social fabric and identity … and help preserve the character of the rural West.” The “system” is absolutely absurd, and few citizens are aware of its immense magnitude, the degree to which it has become firmly rooted, and the level at which they, as taxpayers, are being “fleeced”

By now, permits for millions of acres of grazing allotments have been assumed by conservation organizations that are nevertheless obliged by law to continue livestock grazing, which they attempt to do at the lowest level allowable and in hopes that there will someday emerge federal legislation that might end livestock grazing on public land altogether. This is costing millions of private-sector dollars from foundations, from corporate and citizen donations, and from what other “deep pockets” are willing to pay up. By rights, though, none of this should be necessary, given that permits were created as temporary grazing privileges.

When one tries to fit all aspects together, what emerges is a logically indefensible, covert setup involving wealthy permittees, protective legislators and governmental bureaucrats, and the result is a $500,000,000-one billion dollar per year taxpayer victimization and the ongoing degradation of a fragile, arid environment for which domestic livestock are biologically unsuited. It is a scenario so firmly in place that the bulk of the environmental community, by paying for control of permits, and by lobbying for buyout legislation, has simply caved in to the rotten political state of affairs.

The best single source of information for this issue is the National Public Lands Grazing Campaign, foremost advocate for a federal buyout program that would pay permittees $175 per AUM to retire permits. On the left side of their website are internal links to all relevant data and arguments, as well as their admission that, to use their own words, “politically, we do not have the option to simply stop paying for the federal grazing program.” Politically!

Advocates for the buyout strategy admit that it is “morally repugnant to reward resource abuse by paying to retire permit/leases”, but because they understand that domestic livestock has “done more damage to North America than the bulldozer and chainsaw combined” they have made the conscious decision to yield to the corrupt industrial/political/bureaucratic gridlock by paying the public’s way out of the mess. “While a long and glorious [sic], principled fight to end public lands livestock grazing through litigation and attrition may succeed in the end”, they write, “many species, ecosystems and watersheds already on the brink could not tolerate further livestock grazing over the time required to win on principle alone.”

Directors and lawyers for environmental organizations buying control of permits, and those lobbying for federal buyout legislation, are loathe to speak about details of their strategy, because it reveals the degree to which they have yielded to what they understand is “morally repugnant”. It makes any discussion that adheres to logic and the public interest very difficult. All things considered, the concept of buying out grazing permits, however accomplished, is a complete surrender by people who see no other path available toward ending a destructive governmental-industrial swindle of the Nation’s citizens.

William Willers is emeritus professor of biology, University of Wisconsin-Oshkosh now living in Middleton, WI. He is founder of Superior Wilderness Action Network (SWAN) and editor of Learning to Listen to the Land and Unmanaged Landscapes, both from Island Press.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/09/08/wild-west-welfare/
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Sep 18, 2014 - 06:58am PT
I wonder how ol' Cliven the welfare moocher freedom fighter is doing anyway?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 18, 2014 - 10:09am PT
survival
Funny you should ask.
Although there seems to be nothing shaking on the Bundy front things are not so rosy for the Recapture Canyon gang.
The "co-conspirators" have just been brought up on Federal charges.
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/58403975-78/canyon-ride-blm-lyman.html.csp
Including a San Juan County Commissioner - Phil Lyman
The five defendants, all current or former San Juan County residents, were charged with "operation of off-road vehicles on public lands closed to vehicles" and conspiracy, offenses that carry up to one year in jail and $100,000 in fines.

None was charged with damaging archaeological sites, but prosecutors said the investigation remains open.

The defendants include Monte Wells, Shane Marian, Franklin Holliday and Jay Redd. The men are ordered to appear Oct. 17 before U.S. Magistrate Evelyn Furse.

Redd, who now lives in Santa Clara, is the son of the late James Redd, the Blanding physician who took his life five years ago after his arrest in an BLM investigation into artifacts trafficking.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 18, 2014 - 10:17am PT
^^^^^ GUD. ^^^^^
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Sep 18, 2014 - 10:46pm PT
My college gf and I we're cruising down some az highway late one night. She was driving, came around a curve right into a herd of cows. To her credit, she slalomed through a few before hitting one right in the head. It instantly dropped dead in its tracks in the middle of the road. Worried that someone else would crash into the carcass we drove to the next town and called the sherriff (pre cell phone era-the horror!!) He took all our info and a few weeks later the rancher sent me a bill for the cow!!! Needless to say I wrote him back and told him to f*#k off. However, I think probably legally he was in the right.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 18, 2014 - 11:24pm PT
Laughable lawsuit at best- Nevada for the most is OPEN range lands, JUST LIKE all those friggin feral horses running around. Just had another horse vs car by me the other day- no one sues the state or feds over those.

If people didn't drive with their heads up their hiney and mind over Montana maybe they wouldn't hot so many beasts.

EXCEPT if someone is injured as a result of a crime....which Cliven is committing.

ooops!

But as usual, Rong is immediately ready to blame it on the human, although he has ABSOLUTELY NO PERSONAL KNOWLEGE of the case. He obviously knows that NV people are stupider than cows.....
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 19, 2014 - 08:51am PT
I grew up and drove for many years and thousands of backroad miles all over Utaaaahhhhr. I don't remember a law about owning a struck cow. But I wouldn't be surprised given the power of the BullSh#t lobby (cute how SuperTopo's webpage knows to insert a # sign to sanitize a cuss word) in those parts.
Whacking a cow never happened to me but.....

Short of college money I sold my cherry and souped up '65 Triumph Spitfire to a friend and got his 59 Ford sedan as a bonus.
Not long afterwards he was taking a date for a moonlight drive in the range cattle infested hills. Suddenly there was a cow straight ahead!
Anyone remember how LOW that Spitfire was? Makes a Mazda Miata look like Kareem Abdul Jabbar (look that up in your Way Back Machine)
So, unable to brake or dodge in time, under they went. They ducked, the windshield was torn off and the hood dented. The cow flipped over the trunk deck. Stopping and looking back they saw the cow/steer/whatever pick itself up and wander off in the moonlight.
Udderly disgusting.

Or at least that's how Andy explained crunching "my" Spitfire.

Andy fixed the car and since he was having the hood straightened he added really sexy hood louvres.
doughnutnational

Gym climber
its nice here in the spring
Sep 19, 2014 - 09:06am PT
I used to work in a nursing home in Auberry Ca. and the access road had a free range cattle sign. One of the nurses hit a cow on the way to a night shift and she did indeed have to pay for the cow. The rancher who owned the cow was a decent guy and processed the deceased cow and gave her the meat that was still useable. Between the cost of the cow and the damage to her car she said it was the most expensive "free" range beef she ever ate.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Sep 19, 2014 - 09:20am PT
I dunno about anywhere else, but I was always told if you hit a cow on the open range highway, you bought said cow.

Well if it's MY cow after I hit it, they won't mind if'n I butcher a couple hunnert pounds off MY cow and throw it in MY trunk.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Sep 19, 2014 - 03:03pm PT
Udderly disgusting

Good one.
hashbro

Trad climber
Mental Physics........
Sep 22, 2014 - 08:52pm PT
http://www.truth-out.org/buzzflash/commentary/cliven-bundy-chutzpah-he-blames-government-for-his-cow-severely-injuring-woman

Cliven Bundy's Chutzpah: He Blames Government for His Cow Severely Injuring Woman

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MARK KARLIN, EDITOR OF BUZZFLASH AT TRUTHOUT

aclivenbundy(Photo: DonkeyHotey)

Cliven Bundy is such an extreme caricature of egregious hypocrisy - not to mention being a crass racist - that he appears to be the invention of a cynical satirist. Alas, he's not.

Given how quickly the news cycle moves, here's a brief review of the Bundy farce. He's the Nevada rancher that became an icon of defiance of the government when he refused to pay grazing fees for his cattle to the Bureau of Land Management. The Bureau impounded Bundy's cows that were feeding themselves on federal land, because he owed more than a million dollars to the Bureau.

Bundy took to the media, and soon, armed militias - whose members believe government is an evil force that encroaches on their "God-given" rights - swarmed to "protect" Bundy from law enforcement officials and Bureau of Land Management officers. After a brief stand-off, the militarized swat teams and police stood down and essentially abandoned the area to Bundy's supporters, who continued to surround his ranch, acting as a de facto rebel military force. This included the setting up of armed check points. If these forces were in another nation defying US authority, they would be considered “militants” and targeted by drones.

Furthermore, the Bureau of Land Management - in full retreat - released Bundy's herd to again roam freely on federal land.

That brings us up to date in order to understand the implications of an article that appeared in the September 17 Las Vegas Review-Journal:

On April 12, a triumphant Cliven Bundy and his supporters chased away federal authorities and set the rancher’s impounded cattle free once more to roam public land in northeast Clark County.

Two days later, a car collided with one of Bundy’s cows on Interstate 15, about 10 miles from his Bunkerville ranch, killing the animal and sending the vehicle careening down an embankment.

Now a Las Vegas woman injured in the crash is suing Bundy for negligence.

The lawsuit filed Sunday in Clark County District Court alleges Bundy “recklessly, carelessly and negligently allowed his cows to enter onto Interstate 15 through an area where he had no grazing or other rights.”

It is imperative to note that the cow was one of those released as the federal government abandoned its stand-off with militia members.

What is Cliven Bundy's response to the lawsuit?

According to the Las Vegas Review-Journal:

"The cow’s owner [Bundy] never arrived on scene after being contacted by NHP [Nevada Highway Patrol] dispatch," the report said.

Bundy had not been served with notice of the lawsuit Wednesday, but he was familiar with the accident. He said it was his cow that was hit, but he denied any responsibility.

He said it is the state’s job to maintain the fence that keeps his livestock off the interstate.

"It’s a state problem. It’s not our problem," Bundy said. "We really feel bad when it happens. We sure don’t want it to happen. But we’re not liable."

Bundy's assertion that the government is liable for a serious accident caused by one of his herd reaches the stratosphere of hypocrisy.

Like many people who want to use government property or services without paying for them in the name of "liberty," Bundy does not want to assume any of the responsibility of those falsely claimed "rights." If ever there were anyone who believed in a "nanny state," it's Cliven Bundy.

Furthermore, Bundy told the Las Vegas Review-Journal that he could, technically, his own claim against the injured party, saying, "The person whose car hit that cow is liable to me."

Bundy's reaction to the accident is not just an occasion for smug derision of a man who managed to defy the federal government; it is a frightening reminder of what happens when right-wing extremists are allowed to break the law. If Bundy was a person of color surrounded by supporters - also people of color - with semi-automatic firearms pointed at the police, would the government have just walked away from the confrontation? The outcome would likely have been far different.

Politicians in Washington, D.C. are spending trillions of dollars on the military and on militarized police to fight "threats to the national security," but they walk away from those "good 'ol (white) boys" who threaten our society from within.

The result is that the Cliven Bundles of the nation feel even more empowered to indulge themselves at the expense of the rest of us.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Sep 22, 2014 - 09:02pm PT
DMT? Re your above post? Will you cite your (biased) source.

Survey: States with the rudest drivers

1. Idaho

I can't believe Idaho is # 1, unless the source is counting those of us that "flip-off" drivers with Cali plates.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Sep 23, 2014 - 04:48pm PT
DMT: If I wasn't soooooo-polite, I would tell you where you can put your USA Today article;)

Other than them red-neck ass-holes driving big Dodge Rams, we are very polite people here in Idaho.

You kind of have to be polite here: when you know everyone is carrying a firearm they are more than willing to use on an impolite person.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 23, 2014 - 04:53pm PT
I'm not into sharing the road. All other drivers are an annoying interference and bicyclist's are beyond the pale. So, regardless of where you're from, if you see me coming, pull over to the side and genuflect.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 28, 2014 - 04:47pm PT
It was stated long ago... speaking to the killing of cows and actions of the feds...


Apr 24, 2014 - 11:08pm PT
Six cows were killed/putdown.

I'm defending all the BLM actions.


Not of this would have happened if Bundy would have follows the law and paid his taxes. That is a simple fact

 Bundy could have avoided everything by living within the laws that he had agreed to long ago...

Bundy standoff
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Bundy standoff is a 20-year legal dispute between the United States Bureau of Land Management (BLM) and cattle rancher Cliven Bundy in southeastern Nevada over unpaid grazing fees that developed into an armed confrontation between protesters and law enforcement.

The ongoing dispute began in 1993, when, in protest against changes to grazing rules, Bundy declined to renew his permit for cattle grazing on BLM-administered lands near Bunkerville, Nevada.[2] In 1998, Bundy was prohibited by the United States District Court for the District of Nevada from grazing his cattle on an area of land later called the Bunkerville Allotment.[2] In July 2013, the BLM complaint was supplemented when federal judge Lloyd D. George ordered that Bundy refrain from trespassing on federally administered land in the Gold Butte area of Clark County.[3]

On March 27, 2014, 145,604 acres of federal land in Clark County were temporarily closed for the "capture, impound, and removal of trespass cattle".[4] BLM officials and law enforcement rangers began a roundup of such livestock on April 5, and an arrest was made the next day. On April 12, a group of protesters, some of them armed,[5] advanced on what the BLM described as a "cattle gather."[6] Sheriff Doug Gillespie negotiated with Bundy and newly confirmed BLM director Neil Kornze,[7] who elected to release the cattle and de-escalate the situation.[8][9]

After making remarks about whether black people would be better off as slaves than under government subsidies, Bundy was widely condemned in the media and was repudiated by conservative politicians and talk-show hosts who had previously supported him, many of whom forcefully condemned his remarks as racist.


 Bundy was/is a greedy, self-important dumb son-of-a-bitch who deserves to be in jail for not paying his taxes and doubly so because he did his grazing in defiance of a federal judge....

That's just plain...

If this was a hippy compound you right wing f*#ks would be up in that dudes colon with your opinionated bile!

All it has to be is just outside your world of normal and it aint anything like you and you can disregard it.. but when its one of your own.. you stop the world to set it right in your eyes.


And you gun nuts are different from the liberals how?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 28, 2014 - 07:54pm PT
I'm sure the Bundianites are OK with this, too.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-swat-officer-shot-20141028-story.html

Authorities have identified the Pomona police officer who was shot early Tuesday while serving a search warrant, alleging a known gang member opened fire on the officer as he tried to enter a San Gabriel home.

Officer Shaun Diamond was part of a 14-member, multi-agency SWAT team serving the warrant about 2 a.m. in the 100 block of San Marino Avenue, authorities told reporters at a Tuesday news conference.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 28, 2014 - 08:14pm PT
Tell me, what's the difference between an armed standoff between law-breaking gangsters and law-breaking Bundy, Ron?

dirtbag

climber
Oct 28, 2014 - 08:16pm PT
Bundy is a real, white American, not like one of those violent latinos you liberals are so dead set to legalize here.
dirtbag

climber
Oct 28, 2014 - 08:21pm PT
Except for that lovely bunkerville couple that went to Las Vegas and started shooting at people.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 29, 2014 - 05:51am PT
Dunno, Ron. That's a minor detail. You think the guy on the bridge was just there for looks.

One's a group that uses threats of violence to enforce its breaking of the law, the other is a group that uses threats of violence to break the law.

What is the difference?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Oct 29, 2014 - 07:17am PT
At IC last May a woman tourist had a very dazed look on her face after steering herself into a steer.

"How are you supposed to see a black cow at night?"

"Did you see the yellow diamond shaped warning sign with the black cow on it?"

"Ooooooooooooooooooh!"
hashbro

Trad climber
Mental Physics........
Oct 29, 2014 - 09:41am PT
If (when) a standoff had involved a group of unarmed enviros opposing federal logging (or perhaps bidding on gas leases in the Rockies), they would have been jailed and prosecuted immediately. Instead the BLM is so intimidated by armed thugs like the Bundys, they don;'t list a finger and tacitly approve of such threats of violence (and rippoff on taxpayers on federal grazing) by looking the other way.

Absolutely ironic and sickening!
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 29, 2014 - 10:05am PT
Nice rationalizing there, Ron.
dirtbag

climber
Oct 29, 2014 - 10:08am PT
Police state?

They see breaking the fuking law. For decades. And, had been threatening the BLM. Who should the BLM have called in? Brownies?
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Oct 29, 2014 - 11:20am PT
Ron, can you cite any statistics that show that undocumented workers (which, btw, would not be here if there was not a demand for their services) are responsible for a higher % of violent crime per capita than US citizens? If not, then all your babble about illegals being dangerous must be BS and motivated by the fact that you are a bigot.

That aside, it seems to me that in one breath you bemoan the BLM and its $4m roundup and use of excessive force, but on the other hand deride the "liberals" concern over the US becoming a police state. It seems to me that your point is as long as the police are not bothering YOU and others that think like you, they can do whatever they want. But when the police (or BLM) do something you don't like, then they are fascist thugs. Do you see any lack of logic in you position?
dirtbag

climber
Oct 29, 2014 - 11:50am PT
How the heck do you kick someone out of a protest anyway?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 29, 2014 - 11:58am PT
In fact some 550,000 of them belong to the most vile criminal gang members on the planet.

AARP?
dirtbag

climber
Oct 29, 2014 - 12:08pm PT
Sources (links),Ron?
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Oct 29, 2014 - 12:23pm PT
Again, Ron, can you cite any statistics that show that undocumented workers (which, btw, would not be here if there was not a demand for their services) are responsible for a higher % of violent crime per capita than US citizens? Data. Facts. Not sensationalist articles with pictures of thugs and a few numbers that actually tell us very little about the big picture.

Again, can you provide data to show the per capita % of illegals vs domestic offenders.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 29, 2014 - 12:24pm PT
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2508523/Why-does-SuperTopo-condone-and-promote-bigotry
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Oct 29, 2014 - 12:30pm PT


Please make me safer and spend more money Mr. Big Government.

Why don't you ask your house representatives to put pressure
on Boehner to let the immigration reform legislation come to a vote? It passed on a bipartisan senate vote and has been stalled in the house for months.
dirtbag

climber
Oct 29, 2014 - 12:34pm PT
Once again, Ron provided objective sources to back up his baloney, lol.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 29, 2014 - 12:34pm PT
You kind of have to be polite here: when you know everyone is carrying a firearm they are more than willing to use on an impolite person.

 Great Ideals on display...

Be polite on penalty of death...

The American Way


Further reading of discussion:
hashbro

Trad climber
Mental Physics........

Oct 29, 2014 - 09:41am PT
If (when) a standoff had involved a group of unarmed enviros opposing federal logging (or perhaps bidding on gas leases in the Rockies), they would have been jailed and prosecuted immediately. Instead the BLM is so intimidated by armed thugs like the Bundys, they don;'t list a finger and tacitly approve of such threats of violence (and rippoff on taxpayers on federal grazing) by looking the other way.

Absolutely ironic and sickening!

 Agree
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Oct 29, 2014 - 12:54pm PT
Here is my point. You have provided NO evidence that undocumented workers are more likely to commit violent crimes than US citizens. Not one of the articles you linked to provides information that shows that. Not one. There is a lot of inflammatory stuff (numbers, pictures, words), but not a shred of data showing that undocumented workers are more likely to commit violent crimes than US citizens. Show me those statistics, please.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 29, 2014 - 01:44pm PT
"Facts are stupid things." -- Ronald Reagan
dirtbag

climber
Oct 29, 2014 - 01:53pm PT
It's funny watching Ron get butthurt when someone questions the veracity of the right wing propaganda he presents as objective "Sources." Lol.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 29, 2014 - 04:57pm PT
Glad I could keep everybody on topic....
WBraun

climber
Oct 29, 2014 - 05:29pm PT
You guys are the ones all pussy butt hurt because a redneck told ya all to fuk off and eat sh!t.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Oct 29, 2014 - 05:29pm PT
Rons first link was Judicial Watch, founded by Leisure Suit Larry Klayman, google that POS and see how reliable they are. I quit reading after Judicial Watch
WBraun

climber
Oct 29, 2014 - 05:51pm PT
Now, tell me again about who is butthurt?

You are !!!!!

I told you, YOU are, and now you're butt hurt and ran away like a little girl.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 29, 2014 - 06:20pm PT
You have provided NO evidence that undocumented workers are more likely to commit violent crimes than US citizens. Not one of the articles you linked to provides information that shows that. Not one.


 effectively the subject was changed once Ron re-entered the thread....

Immigration became an issue and he's been stuck on that ever since...

funny to watch
dirtbag

climber
Oct 29, 2014 - 06:43pm PT
Because the content is probablty sheet and spin too, Ron.

You also think anecdotes from your hunting buddies passes as credible evidence. (Hint, it does not.)

But you have no idea what a credible source is. That much is clear.

But hey, white folk like Bundy are good people...

ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Oct 29, 2014 - 07:07pm PT
I gave you factual numbers

LOL! There are numbers in those articles, that much is true.

Your tacit argument seems to be that undocumented workers are more dangerous than americans. I am asking you to prove that by showing data that illegal immigrants commit more violent crimes per capita than US citizens. You can whine about it all night long, but the simple FACT is that you have not done that.

Quit being such a little bitch and prove you are right. Data. Bring it on. If you cannot do that, then be a man and admit that you are wrong.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Oct 29, 2014 - 07:13pm PT
and as such wanted to sell the lands to a foreign oil exploration company and much of that land converted to domiciles for said exploration efforts.

Unless you can show me something definitive saying otherwise, I'll call this one a total lie.

Made up fairy dust.

The BLM and many other federal lands are normally open to anyone who wants to drill on them. YOU can go get an oil and gas lease (which is totally independent from surface ownership).

A Taco-head had me look up some land in Colorado that was in an upcoming BLM oil and gas lease sale. We have them all of the time. It is simple, if you meet the bonding requirements, which aren't much in the scheme of things.

This is how it works:

1) Your geologist tells you to drill you where to drill.

2) You send the landman to the county courthouse, where you can work the title and find out the owner of the mineral rights, which in many areas are severed from the surface ownership. You lease the mineral owner. You don't even give the surface owner a phone call. You contact them if you decide to put your surface location on their land. They can rarely stop you.

3) After a while, the minerals will come up for auction. You can go to any oil and gas lease auction and bid, whoever you are. Let's say you win and now own the oil and gas lease.

4) Before drilling the well, you settle surface damages with the surface owner. It is very rare that a surface owner can prevent you from drilling if you now own the mineral rights. It varies by state, but the surface owner is compensated. It is usually between 5 and 100 grand, depending on the surface. If you can't come to an agreement, you go to arbitration. You can even get an injunction in ten minutes if the judge is awake and the surface owner is pointing a shotgun at the rig hands.

5) You drill the well. The mineral owner gets a nice percentage of the proceeds if you make a well. Even if you drill a dry hole, the mineral owner, private or government, makes money off of the leases. We call this price the "bonus," and it can be 50 bucks per acre or 50K per acre.

The west is COVERED with federal leases. The federal government makes money off of the production, the state makes money from production taxes (which are a lot).

You can't get sneaky. I've done BLM leasing and it isn't that hard. Anyone here could learn to do it over two beers with me.

You can't play any games with state or federal oil and gas leases. Ron, you can go lease up a ton of ground yourself if you feel like wasting a ton of money.

In an area such as Nevada, or most of the western states where the state and fed owns the majority of the land, there are sometimes vast oil and gas fields, and companies have been producing from that land for ages.

Now, in 2014, companies know which land might possibly have oil or gas. You need a thick sedimentary section, a source rock (almost always a carbon rich shale), and a seal. The source rock must have been buried to a sufficient depth to break down the carbon and generate oil or gas. The sedimentary basins are all known.

Nevada's Basin and Range province does have linear sedimentary basins, but despite a fair amount of looking, there isn't that much production.

Now if it looks hot, and right now geologists are scouring the planet looking for shales to frack, then you will normally have multiple companies competing for those leases. Nevada isn't that hot, so the recent leases went super cheap.

Get this through your skull: Mineral rights are independent of the surface in almost all situations. I've bought a 7 acre lot in the middle of a city and drilled right under the damn Wal Mart. There weren't any problems.

So you should really try to find a better conspiracy theory, Ron. There may be future activity in some of the Nevada mini-basins, but not yet, and I can practically promise you that every decent sized company looks at Nevada. You put a small team on it for a few months to a year. You don't put a whole division on it yet.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 29, 2014 - 07:16pm PT
NCRockClimber writes:

"Your tacit argument seems to be that undocumented workers are more dangerous than americans."




What is the percentage of prisoners who are illegal aliens? I don't know. Look it up, and if it's more or less than two or three percent, you'll find your answer.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Oct 29, 2014 - 07:19pm PT
Senator Reid wants to take all of that land to build a landing pad for aliens. Off world aliens. Not the human type.

I read it on the internet. It must be true.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 29, 2014 - 07:31pm PT
"You'll certainly find out who can't afford lawyers. "


Please elaborate. I'm not sure I follow. I don't see how lack of income makes a difference, seeing how everyone is provided legal counsel, regardless of demographic.
Bullwinkle

Boulder climber
Oct 29, 2014 - 07:39pm PT
Wow, this place has turned into Super Racist. . .
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Oct 29, 2014 - 07:41pm PT
the Reese River valley has just been put under a sale agreement with fracking companys by the BLM.

I am working with you here, because apparently you can't do it for yourself, you idiot.

There is no real meaning in "sale agreement." You need to say if they are leasing or nominating it for lease, or whatever.

If the land that you want to drill under is owned by the BLM (or any federal agency), you must first nominate that land for auction. Then somebody has to show up and bid on the auction. Federal leases are totally transparent. Of course some areas are off limits, such as military bases and the like. If it is rural, it is normally open.

So somebody is nominating it to put in a lease sale? That is all open for all to see. No secrets. Or has their been an auction and the land has already been leased? The latter would compose an "agreement."

If it is privately owned land, it is much different. You approach the mineral owner quietly and try to lease his minerals. The dollar per acre amount and the royalty amount is negotiable. Much more negotiable if you have more than one company wanting that lease.

Leasing a private person can be done quietly, but you must file it in the county court house where the land lies. The laws on this vary by state, but normally you file your leases right away. It prevents somebody else from leasing farmer Jones again and beating you to the court house, which is important in most states.

Anyone can go into a county courthouse and see the leases filed on that land.

I am heading out tomorrow to check an area that I am trying to put together as a prospect. I am just doing a quick cursory check to see if the land is currently leased by another company. If they are, I will look at the expiration date. Land around here gets leased over and over throughout the years, often with no well getting drilled, and if they don't drill during the primary term of the lease, they will expire and I will swoop in an nab it.

When you file something in the courthouse, it provides legal "notice" to everyone else, an important legal concept that home owners have to do.

I used to do a lot of land work, and through that have a pretty good understanding of real property law.

AGAIN: AN OIL AND GAS LEASE IS INDEPENDENT OF ANY SURFACE RIGHTS unless they are mentioned in the lease.

My guess is that most private mineral rights in Nevada have not been "severed." That means that the surface owner also owns the mineral rights. In oil and gas country, it is common, if not the norm, for the mineral owner to be separate from the surface.

Either a farmer sold off all or part of his mineral rights to raise some money, or when a farmer sold the farm, he reserved the mineral rights from the grant (deed)....therefore severing the surface from the mineral estate. This is the norm in a lot of the areas that I work. The minerals get handed down and sold around until you can have 100 different people or entities owning the mineral rights under a 40 acre tract.

A lease is different from a deed. You can't actually BUY the land form the state or federal government. Oil and gas companies almost NEVER buy the mineral rights. It is much cheaper just to lease them.

If you want a lesson on how oil and gas leases typically work, and the clauses they normally contain, that is another lesson.
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Oct 29, 2014 - 07:49pm PT
Im wrong because YOU say so?? BUWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAA... With zero facts to back your story??? wuwhhahahahahahahahahahaaaa...How ironic. And FYI I NEVER SAID what you attempt to credit me with jr. Not even close. Now go read up on reading comprehension then get back to me.

The way you looney lefters spin shyt --ya ought to be an arachnoid- the web would be industrial strength.

It has never been my attempt to misrepresent your views. Since you seem to think my reading comprehension is lacking, can you briefly and clearly state whatever you are trying to say?

Also, I don't have a "story" I am trying to "back." FWIW, I think immigration, especially from our latin american neighbors, is an incredibly complex issue and I have yet to read a comprehensive solution with which I agree.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 29, 2014 - 08:17pm PT
and I have yet to read a comprehensive solution with which I agree.

How about: hire an illegal alien, go to jail. As soon as the evening news shows a Newport Beach housewife and the CEO of Iowa Beef Processors being marched off to prison, illegal immigration will come to a screeching halt.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Oct 29, 2014 - 08:53pm PT

THE POINT WAS,,,,,, fracking exploration is happening all over my state now, including properties adjacent to dirty harry reid-land.

Really? ALL over your state? Drilling rigs lining the horizon?

Has anyone actually drilled a horizontal yet? I checked that a year or so ago and couldn't find any.

Meanwhile, thousands have been drilled in the rest of the country. No problems. The dis-information about it is what really bugs me.

And yes. English Common Law is the foundation of American Real Property Law with the notable exception of Louisiana. It is very fair.

As for the case when mineral rights are owned and leased by parties who have zero ownership in the surface is very legal. In OK, the mineral estate is considered SUPERIOR to the surface estate, all other factors being legal.

When you buy a place, you do a title opinion. You will note that you own only the surface, if that is the case. When something is filed in the courthouse, it is legal notice. Right there for all to see.

So in Ron's case, somebody should check the courthouse. It is all there plain as day.

It isn't just the BLM who "owns" federal land. There are national forests, parks, and others. Normally the BLM handles the mineral estate. So they normally handle the auctions other than the offshore stuff, which is handled my the Minerals Management Service of the Dept of Interior.

BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Oct 29, 2014 - 09:00pm PT
Crap. This took me ten seconds to find:

http://www.blm.gov/nv/st/en/prog/minerals/leasable_minerals/oil___gas/oil_and_gas_leasing/2014_eoi.html

Geologists and the oil industry deal with the Section-Township-Range land survey formt (designed by Thomas Jefferson)."

I don't have access to Nevada well info anymore. I can download every well ever drilled in the mid-continent area, though.

There are public lease sales all of the time around here. We don't think that there is a UFO or secret New World Order when we see a sale.

Ron is a total nut. Harry Reid will not get a penny of royalty money from federal land, no more than Exxon does.

The only thing that politicians do is open or close off certain areas for leasing. That is done by executive policy or act of congress. That would just open it for drilling, as almost all of Nevada already is. The reason that Nevada isn't covered with oil and gas wells has to do with geology. It has nothing to do with ownership.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Oct 29, 2014 - 09:04pm PT
The point is: there was no proper environmental assessment, which is a requirement for such leases to be valid.

Tioga? The Naval Petroleum Reserves...WHAT leases? You don't know what you are talking about, either...

Dude, I do this all day long. I'm mapping right now....

Here is what a heavily drilled area in Oklahoma looks like. The numbered squares are "sections" of one square mile...



BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Oct 29, 2014 - 09:36pm PT
Clearly state your question, Tioga, or clearly state your point. You can get a little help on these things called Google and Wikipedia, you know. I have no idea what you are talking about.

The United States is different from most other countries. Individuals can OWN mineral rights beneath their land. Parts of Canada allow this, but not all. These are called Crown Lands in Canada. So if somebody finds oil beneath your land in the U.S., you can get rich really quickly. It still happens all of the time.

The government retains ownership of lots of land and ocean waters. They are the biggest mineral owner in the country.

As for leases, I own interests in hundreds of them. Have you ever read one?

You can read about the Naval Reserves, a product of the early 20th century, here:

http://energy.gov/fe/services/petroleum-reserves/naval-petroleum-reserves

Look. Ron posts about Harry Reid somehow getting his hands on some government owned oil and gas rights. That did actually happen once, at Teapot Dome, in Wyoming, in 1923. Here is a quote from Wikipedia, on the scandal it caused:

Before the Watergate scandal, Teapot Dome was regarded as the "greatest and most sensational scandal in the history of American politics".[1] The scandal damaged the public reputation of the Harding administration, which was already severely diminished by its poor handling of the Great Railroad Strike of 1922 and the President's veto of the Bonus Bill in 1922.[2]

All that I am saying is that you can't drill a well without a lease, and federal leasing is done by open auction. The records of every change of land or mineral ownership is filed in the county where the land lies, even in Nevada. You can't hide it, and trust me. A politician can only try to open or close certain areas for drilling. That is done through congress, and normally makes the news. However, you can always visit the courthouse.

If you had been able to make money and buy a house, where you get a signed deed from the seller, you would know this. Minerals are treated like most land ownership (using basic English Common Law).

Greenies (and me) oppose drilling in ANWR. Republicans in Florida have been able to keep a drilling ban offshore of that state.

That is all a politician can do. They get rich off of lectures, not oil wells.




Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 30, 2014 - 09:00am PT
Here's the biggest thing wrong with Supertopo: Ron. And his sidekick, Weiner, isn't far behind. These two buffoons dumb down every conversation they enter.

Too funny....

But I still say...
Please elaborate.

I want a story for the campfire... hahaha
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 22, 2014 - 09:47am PT


Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH

May 2, 2014 - 10:01am PT
Yah we all know you DEMS ignored all the LIES being spoon fed to you about Benghazi and now that the proof is 100% saying just that you still dont care because it involves your president and your next (hopeful)in line. Good to know you stand behind such LOUD LIARS... Pathetic you are each and every one of ya.

But do yammer on about such things as basket ball team owners that have ZERO to do with you or anyone else , about their personal habits. Thats somehow a major news story .. Sheeeeeit, can make this crap up.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Nov 22, 2014 - 11:17am PT
The internet has all of this information. It seems limitless to anyone who remembers the days of writing letters with a pen.

So how come people aren't better informed?

It is because anyone can post anything on the internet. This great repository of information is 99% wrong.

I do use Wikipedia a lot, even with some technical questions. Wiki is cool. If you want to understand fracking, you really need to understand Young's Modulus. There is a great page which explains Young's Modulus in both plain English and in mathematics.

Other than that, you have to really be careful of what to believe. Take fracking. I know quite a bit about this, and it doesn't bother me a bit, which might surprise people who know that I am a pretty green guy.

I can go onto any green website and they all make fracking out to be something new and extremely dangerous. It is almost impossible to find out the basics, because it is all hyped.

This experience, as well as a few others, make me very cautious of most journalism. If it is a complicated or technical issue, the internet is full of conflicting information.

Just look at the Climate Change thread. There are about 10 guys who do nothing but waste their entire days posting different charts. You have to be very careful if an issue is complicated.

It is almost impossible to find out the basic facts about fracking, much less any technical information. I've never seen an article mention Young's modulus, for example.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Nov 22, 2014 - 11:22am PT
Yah we all know you DEMS ignored all the LIES being spoon fed to you about Benghazi and now that the proof is 100% saying just that

Looks like your the one eating some spoon fed BS if you think that there is any proof in that quote.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 22, 2014 - 11:47am PT
I am sure that Benghazi investigation #8 will provide loads of damning evidence that the mainstream media has been hiding, and Ron will be dancing to the tune of "Told ya so, neener neener neener".
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Nov 22, 2014 - 04:11pm PT
I'm still waiting for Lance Armstrong to arm up and go postal on LeMond (pretends not to be American (French imposter, Vichy?) and sidmo (the not so great pretender - laughing and gay like a clown).

Bang bang

The only good Lance caught footballs for all he was worth!
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 22, 2014 - 05:11pm PT
Showing your age there z, but yeah, that Lance was both good and bad, as in bad azz. BITD when concussion protocol was for pussys, and the average player had a regular job in the off season.

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 29, 2014 - 12:35pm PT
Do you have it marked on your calendar when to resurrect tired old (and beaten to death) threads?
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 29, 2014 - 01:20pm PT
Yeah, what a waste when we could all be posting up about our gun collections.
hashbro

Trad climber
Mental Physics........
Jan 1, 2015 - 06:00pm PT
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/29/rancher-cliven-bundy-still-grazing-his-cattle-on-d/

Cliven Bundy taunts feds by enjoying the ‘freedoms’ to graze his cattle on disputed land


By Valerie Richardson - The Washington Times - Monday, December 29, 2014


Unbowed and unapologetic, Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy is still running his cattle on disputed grazing land eight months after his highly publicized standoff over public lands, but that doesn't mean his feud with the federal government is over.

In a tense confrontation that generated international headlines, the 68-year-old Mr. Bundy won that round last spring: Bureau of Land Management officials agreed to leave the property and release his impounded cattle after hundreds of armed supporters descended on the Southern Nevada ranch in April. He says he hasn't seen any sign of federal agents since.

"[W]e've really enjoyed some liberty and freedoms out here," Mr. Bundy told the Las Vegas Review-Journal last month.

"Since the standoff, we haven't seen one BLM vehicle on any of these country roads around this ranch. We haven't seen one BLM ranger. We haven't seen one [National] Park Service ranger. We haven't really seen any undercover-type people," he said. "We haven't seen snipers on top of our hills. We haven't seen high-tech communication equipment. We haven't seen any of those things."

Still, the victory came at a high cost. Mr. Bundy, a newcomer to the media spotlight, was vilified in the media and lost the backing of many prominent conservatives after he said at an April press conference that black Americans may have been better off under slavery than on welfare, comments critics denounced as racist.

His legal battle with the BLM over grazing rights, one that has resonated across the region, is ongoing. Mr. Bundy has refused to pay $1.2 million in grazing fees to the BLM, arguing that the land belongs to the state, not the federal government. The land rights issue is particularly heated in Nevada, where 85 percent of the land within the state's borders is federally owned.

The BLM did not respond to a request for comment on the status of its dispute with Mr. Bundy at deadline.

Meanwhile, the FBI is reportedly conducting a criminal investigation into possible weapons violations and intimidation tactics against federal agents that occurred during the standoff at the Bunkerville ranch.

And Mr. Bundy's son, Ammon Bundy, says the federal government is treating him as a "domestic terrorist," which is what Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid called Cliven Bundy and his supporters at the height of the April standoff.

Ammon Bundy said he was detained and questioned Nov. 1 by the Transportation Security Administration when he and his daughter tried to board a flight from Phoenix to Salt Lake City.

He followed up by having a background check conducted at Cabela's, a federally licensed firearms dealer, which came up as "delayed." A day later, the FBI lifted the "delayed" status, enabling him to buy a gun, he said in a post on the Bundy Ranch website.

Undeterred

None of this has apparently deterred the Bundy family patriarch, who remains as committed as ever to fighting what he sees as federal overreach on public lands. His latest skirmish comes over the BLM's proposed Resource Management Plan update in Southern Nevada, which would place additional limits on federal lands by expanding what are known as "Areas of Critical Environmental Concern" (ACECs).

Mr. Bundy views the plan, which was released Oct. 9, as an effort by the BLM to retaliate against him and his family. He has urged his supporters to attend public meetings and send in comments on the proposal, which would affect 3.1 million acres of public land, by the Jan. 7 deadline.

"This is a direct assault on the state of Nevada. It is also a deliberate retaliation against the people for standing against the horrific action of several federal agencies at the Bundy ranch," the Bundy family said in a blog post.

"What it amounts to is they're going to treat this whole Southern Nevada area like wilderness. It's a stricter rule for land use. It's policing power is what they're after," Mr. Bundy told the Review-Journal.

Mr. Bundy may be getting some stronger local political support, with Republicans capturing both houses of the state legislature in the midterm elections, while GOP Gov. Brian Sandoval easily won re-election. The incoming state Assembly majority leader, Las Vegas Republican Michele Fiore, was a strong supporter of Mr. Bundy and outspoken critic of the BLM's land management programs in April's showdown.

Mr. Bundy is also the subject of a lawsuit filed in September by a 34-year-old Las Vegas woman who was injured when she drove into one of his cows on Interstate 15, but he says federal and state agencies should be held liable for the damages.

The accident happened April 13, during the standoff between the BLM and pro-Bundy protesters, when federal agents had "locked down the range" and had begun releasing previously impounded cattle, according to the Bundy Ranch in a statement.

"So here is the irony, Cliven's life would have been taken by federal agents if he would have checked on the cattle, yet he is charged for neglect, carelessness and recklessness for not doing so," said the statement. "We do not have to point out who was reckless, careless and negligent?"

If Mr. Bundy is discouraged, however, he's not showing it. In a YouTube video posted shortly before Christmas, he thanked his supporters and said, "I really believe [Jesus] was with us at the Bundy ranch this past year, influencing us and blessing us."

"I want to thank those who come and support us at the ranch and those who even put their life on the line," Mr. Bundy said in a Christmas video on YouTube. "I want to thank you and say, 'Merry Christmas.'"
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jan 2, 2015 - 08:13am PT
Freaking welfare queen.
dirtbag

climber
Jan 2, 2015 - 08:24am PT
Gary succinctly nails it.
CA.Timothy

climber
California
Jan 2, 2015 - 08:40am PT
Ammon Bundy said he was detained and questioned Nov. 1 by the Transportation Security Administration when he and his daughter tried to board a flight from Phoenix to Salt Lake City.

He followed up by having a background check conducted at Cabela's, a federally licensed firearms dealer, which came up as "delayed." A day later, the FBI lifted the "delayed" status, enabling him to buy a gun, he said in a post on the Bundy Ranch website.

I find this humorous.

I want to know what becomes of the investigation (if one exists) regarding the militia men who pointed weapons at BLM officers.

couchmaster

climber
Jan 2, 2015 - 09:57am PT
This may help you on that question. Is that the federal agent provocateur who was acting like he was a Cliven supporter Timothy? Check out how many cameras are in the background. Interesting, makes one wonder how many cameras are next to the camera taking the shot so as to be out of view. Would that make it clearer to you why no one was prosecuted? Haha!

Same thing recently occurred in one of the anti-cop protest marches. 2 undercover cops pretending to be protestors were confronted by their attempts to incite violence and in dealing with one protestor who was too pushy, outed themselves as police. That's not the story that the mainstream media wants you to see though, as Werner says, but it's the real story evidently.

These 2 were "pretend" protestors who were encouraging protestors to bust windows etc, out themselves to be cops, when confronted, then arrested one kid for getting in their grills too aggressively. As the other protestors started to move in to support, one cop pulled his gun and pointed it at the crowd, including the photographer who took this photo and was screaming at everyone to get back:


Cops they were after all. Not protestors as they had been pretending to be. You want to know what the guys on the bikes are saying? Reread the words above to get a better feel for it, I'm sure you can use your imagination.



Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jan 2, 2015 - 11:43am PT
best watched with the sound off...but an important contribution nonetheless

[Click to View YouTube Video]
crankster

Trad climber
Jan 2, 2015 - 12:13pm PT
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 2, 2015 - 12:20pm PT
I still don't understand. The cattle are on the land illegally. Shoot the cattle. Bring in Army snipers. Good training.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 2, 2015 - 12:26pm PT
Bundy's clearly an nut and just as clearly not a racist. Of course reproprogs have no problem taking a quote completely out of context and making a poster out of it.


http://www.tpnn.com/2014/04/26/cliven-bundys-black-bodyguard-bundys-not-a-racist-id-take-a-bullet-for-that-man/


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2014/04/24/prior-to-slavery-comments-bundy-said-minority-groups-are-against-us/
dirtbag

climber
Jan 2, 2015 - 12:43pm PT
^^^^LOL.

























































Oh...you're not joking.
dirtbag

climber
Jan 2, 2015 - 12:46pm PT
You're right and Mr. Bundy is right, TGT. If only lazy uppity negroes like that Obama feller would know their place and keep on picken' cotton for their masters, we'd all be better off.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 2, 2015 - 01:14pm PT
Dear Leader has some really racist friends though.



Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Jan 2, 2015 - 01:42pm PT

must be awful to be living though one of the most successful Presidency's in history, TGT
crankster

Trad climber
Jan 2, 2015 - 04:42pm PT
Man..TGT is digging deep now that the country is on the rebound. Haters gotta hate, though.
dirtbag

climber
Jan 30, 2015 - 09:40am PT
Bump--because it's fun watching idiots out themselves as idiots.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Jan 30, 2015 - 12:14pm PT
The average number of posts (now about 16/day) is slipping. Rev this sucker up.

Who is this man? Reuters identifies him as Eric Parker from central Idaho.






Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jan 30, 2015 - 12:29pm PT
I still don't understand. The cattle are on the land illegally. Shoot the cattle. Bring in Army snipers. Good training.

You know it; then bring Clint in and he could write a HamburgerWestern about the romance in all of this..

High Plains Sniper
Any old Moo on the Loose
Aim 'em High
Fistfull of Sirloin
Burger Valley Days
The Outlaw Ronald McDonald
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Jan 30, 2015 - 12:44pm PT
~but what about The Good, The Bad and the Ugly?

A remake starrring Eric Parker? Can anyone find him today. Is he in the witness/provacateur protection program?


Screen test

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jan 30, 2015 - 12:52pm PT
The rare, the well, and the Whitey!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 30, 2015 - 04:08pm PT
Blundy's gunmen still need to be arrested and charged.
dirtbag

climber
Jan 30, 2015 - 04:23pm PT
No.

But your continued defense of, and respect for, an outlaw, racist freeloader is duly noted.
dirtbag

climber
Jan 30, 2015 - 04:37pm PT
10b4me

Social climber
Mar 9, 2015 - 12:16pm PT
damn government, still not doing their job.

http://www.hcn.org/articles/cliven-bundy-rancher-nevada-scofflaw
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Mar 9, 2015 - 12:27pm PT
Freaking freeloaders...

What the hell do you anti gov types want?

Please explain in one paragraph. No grammatical errors allowed, they make you look stupid and will be rejected

Intelligence counts, if you don't like the laws you need to be able to rite good, and stuff.

Links are also invalid, use your OWN words, kids.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 9, 2015 - 12:54pm PT
What the hell do you anti gov types want?

NET NEUTRALITY!!!!!
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Mar 9, 2015 - 01:25pm PT
I want to rob a store with a gun and then have the government leave me alone.

That store was in my family for the last 1002 years. I don't need proof to say that, you'll just have to believe me. This goes deeper than any law.


PS,
Please bring your women folk and children to hide behind.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 9, 2015 - 01:36pm PT
Keep your grubby Gubermint hands off the Gubermint land that Freeloading on.

This is affront to Freedom???
Why should I have to pay for tha Land I grase my Cattle on?
This is God's Country. This is God's land. That any Gubermint land.
God said Go ahead and use the land in da bible, so that's all I need.

The Bible can be used as an answer to doing any awful thing imaginable.
Like Slavery.
dirtbag

climber
Mar 9, 2015 - 03:28pm PT
"We the people" my ass.

That MOB did not represent me.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 9, 2015 - 03:33pm PT
And we all know why- dirty politicians would be totally exposed if this ever went to a trial of anyone for anything regarding the incident.

Meanwhile The Stand off is the first time the feds have been faced down by "we the people". And for that, YOU ALL should dam well rejoice, but youll still cry over "grazing fees" as if that had any dam thing to do with it anyway lmao!

You're delusional as ever.
dirtbag

climber
Mar 9, 2015 - 04:00pm PT
This whole thing did go to a trial. Bunf*#k lost.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 9, 2015 - 04:31pm PT
Yep, he lost, but if you get enough gun toting whackos together you can make your own laws I guess. Then you can wrap yourself in the flag and congratulate yourself on being a "true patriot".

Welcome to the new Tombstone where "we the people" decide what is right or wrong by with the barrel of a gun. Sucking on the gubmint' teat one minute, then pointing a gun and acting like you are wearing your big boy pants the next. Grow the f*ck up.

Yee haw
couchmaster

climber
Mar 9, 2015 - 05:11pm PT

Some of you butthurt libs sound like you feel that you just need to go nail him to the cross or something. It's like a burr under the saddle to you all. It's just a single old dude, dudes gonna be dead of old age before too long, why push the feds to make a martyr out of him? (Ie, he's arrested and dies of a heart attack in jail).

Just let him die a lonely old man. So what? He threatens you that much?

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 9, 2015 - 05:23pm PT
The BLM is jess waitin' fer the ol' IRS to take 'im down.
They know who the real sheriff is.
10b4me

Social climber
Mar 9, 2015 - 05:49pm PT
1) Ron, that's my land his cows are grazing on. I want them off.
2) Reilly, I wish the IRS would hurry up. I want part of the fine to be in my tax refund.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Mar 9, 2015 - 05:57pm PT
Was "One Eyed Harry" a multimillionaire before he went to Congress?
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Mar 9, 2015 - 06:06pm PT
It's just a single old dude, dudes gonna be dead of old age before too long, why push the feds to make a martyr out of him? (Ie, he's arrested and dies of a heart attack in jail).


Same thing could be said about any typical USA bigwig.
Old people can't be criminals?
Take Bernie Madoff for example, or
Duke Cunningham.
How about this awhole:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_DeLay
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Mar 9, 2015 - 06:16pm PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff

According to the Wikipedia article on the controversy, Bundy is violating the law. In addition, his protests are based on local law enforcement having jurisdiction over federal BLM enforcement. I believe that federal law trumps all state law per the US Constitution.
Having said that, maybe the imposition of federal law on local issues should be tempered. I think many here would agree as it pertains to federal Marijuana laws.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 9, 2015 - 07:12pm PT
and fine land it is too. Well worth spewing & fighting over. Bundy overgrazes & destroys our land with his starving range-trash cows, while mouth-breathers support his God-given right to violate U.S. law.


Can't you people find a better fight?

like whiskey taxes, or

Benghazi?
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Mar 9, 2015 - 07:49pm PT
The American west was bought and paid for with the federal government's blood and treasure (i.e., the nation's taxpayers) for the benefit of the people. What would Nevada and its sister states be without the U.S. calvary and bureau of reclamation?

So some people can go all sagebrush rebellion but it's only because of the feds that their little shithole corner of the desert was ever inhabitable by white people in the first place.

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Mar 9, 2015 - 08:01pm PT
The fact that they haven't sneaked in the middle of the night and snatched him in over a year after things calmed down speaks volumes.... It quietly all went away due to some serious nefarious sh#t that would have been uncovered.

What else would make sense?
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Mar 9, 2015 - 08:11pm PT
Probably been answered already - what would happen to someone who took and butchered one of these illegal animals? Prosecuted? Federal court? Just thinkin. Fire up the BBQ!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Mar 9, 2015 - 08:56pm PT
Ron...Are you saying TMJesse doesn't practice good hygeine...?
10b4me

Social climber
Mar 9, 2015 - 08:58pm PT
10b,, I SERIOUSLY doubt your feet have ever touched Bunkerville land.
Ron, I was speaking metaphorically, but that land is public land.
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Mar 9, 2015 - 08:59pm PT
My land with private cows means the same as private trout in my stream! What if I set up a nice trout population in the local National Forest stream or lake and said I would shoot anyone who dared to cast a line out there into their own waters. Who are these people? The mob?
thebravecowboy

climber
Greyrock, CO
Mar 9, 2015 - 09:01pm PT
You can still drink from the stream if it's trout Jesse.
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Mar 9, 2015 - 09:06pm PT
TM, if you tried, youd be shot. And transported to the nearest mine shaft, then youd be tossed down said shaft with a generous helping of lime following you down.. The answers to investigators would be,, nope never seen him roundcheer..Its BUNKERVILLLE dude. They know whos not from round there just by smell alone. ;-)

Good thing I won't try. Domestic terrorism? Thanks for the tip.

[edit] also been an LEO at YNP and worked a summer season out of Carson RD in 93'
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Mar 9, 2015 - 09:17pm PT
Ron, I really don't care that much and would hang with ranchers over the feds any day, but the argument is against taking public good for private gain without compensation to the taxpayer. Talk to a soldier or sailor about contributions toward our freedom and its price. I am not a veteran.

johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Mar 9, 2015 - 09:55pm PT
This is getting hysterical.

Laws are this way when it suits them and opposite when it fits there whims. All this fence straddling is so appropriate for a thread where a cattle rancher ignores fences and want everyone else to pay his way. Bundy would be tarred and feathered if he was a liberal in Nevada letting the rest of us pick up his tab.




thebravecowboy

climber
Greyrock, CO
Mar 9, 2015 - 10:07pm PT
it's a $1M debt that Bundy has incurred, Mr. Anderson. The $3M expenses for the BLM fiasco would have been avoided if Bundy wasn't a cheap scofflaw (not to insult cheap scofflaws or anything).
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 9, 2015 - 10:08pm PT
I bet Werner has climbed The Calf on the Apron. That counts, doesn't it?
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Mar 9, 2015 - 10:12pm PT
Fair enough, Ron. Wasted Taxpayer $ with no payment to the treasury; nothing new there. But, that doesn't make it right. It's still welfare farming or poaching public range lands. If the place has no national value, perhaps we should sell it to pay our national debt?
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Mar 9, 2015 - 10:37pm PT
And how would reconcile that against the actions of the BLM officers on the ground out there?

Why do you think they pulled back and basically did nothing other than show up? I feel sorry for them, really. All that training for nothing....
jonnyrig

climber
Mar 10, 2015 - 10:40am PT
Pointed out something to Ron.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Mar 10, 2015 - 11:23am PT
What are his unpaid fees + penalties since 1996?

More quotes from that article:

March 18, 1996: The federal government, which owns 87 percent of the land in Nevada, is still worried about potential violence if they try to remove illegally grazing cattle from protected land. Two more pipebombs had exploded in Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management offices in the past two years.

April 10, 2014: A protest camp has formed. There is a sign at the entrance that reads, "MILITA SIGHN IN."

Traveling from as close as St. George — and as far as Montana — a mix of characters waved picket signs at an encampment just before a bridge over the Virgin River, protesting the BLM’s campaign.

“This is a better education than being in school! I’m glad I brought you. I’m a good mom,” said Ilona Ence, a 49-year-old mother from St. George and Bundy relative who brought her four teenage kids to the ranch. “They’re learning about the Constitution.”


April 5, 2014: Clive Bundy also thinks the co-habitating cows and tortoises could have a beautiful, symbiotic relationship if the government would let them. “The tortoises eat the cow manure, too. It’s filled with protein.”


What is a good 1000 yard setup for the next open season on large ungulates in this section of the open range?
jonnyrig

climber
Mar 10, 2015 - 11:33am PT
True. Not a million, according to Bundy, who acknowledges bout $300,000 himself.

Note in the article that the government's not quit this fight, they're just changing tactics in an effort to avoid bloodshed.

Personally, from what I've read and seen about Bundy, I don't hold the man in high regard, and I think there are a lot of better causes that could have been taken up over the years by the militia groups where they would have stood a much better chance of having a positive impact in the arena of individual rights. This looks to me like they're throwing their support after a long-term losing cause in this case.

Seriously, representing yourself in federal court is a fools errand. Things like militia groups exhibiting infighting and susceptibility to bullshit like "we think the drones are coming so we're outa here", along with basic misuse of the English language (militiamen SIGHN in here? seriously?) are signs that you may not be part of the most intelligent thinkers around.
These guys strike me as the type who like to fall back on old-English grammar when addressing the court or attempting explain their understanding of things like constitutional law. They make a big show of their belief in local and states rights, individual freedom and often "sovereign" authority granted to them by constitutional powers. It's weird. And it's gibberish. Ultimately, they often utterly fail in both the legal arena and the public eye.

Be cautious in whom you choose to support; because if ultimately the war is lost, you will have done more DAMAGE to our individual liberties than you will have succeeded in defending them. ALA open carry advocates in California. Yeah, that turned out great for their cause. F*#king idiots.
thebravecowboy

climber
Greyrock, CO
Mar 10, 2015 - 11:34am PT
“The tortoises eat the cow manure, too. It’s filled with protein.”

Made my day right there.

I am confused how this pertains to grand scheme of individual rights, at all. I mean, maybe if we're talking about Bundy's individual rights to not pay the money he owes (apparently you fellas know the score, ~$300k), or about his individual rights to make money off of animals that trample and sh#t in the precious water holes...maybe.

WOOHOO SIXTY-FIVE DEGREES AND WETHERILL'S CONCORDIA AND I GETTA CLIMB WITH SAL PARADISE TODAY!
jonnyrig

climber
Mar 10, 2015 - 11:38am PT
So they're advocating murder in retaliation for killing a cow?
thebravecowboy

climber
Greyrock, CO
Mar 10, 2015 - 11:39am PT
you peace loving liberals...come over and start shooting cows

solid gold. Love you Ron.
jonnyrig

climber
Mar 10, 2015 - 11:40am PT
Anyway, ain't no risk of a peace-loving liberal shooting any cows. How?
AINT GOT NO GUNS!
thebravecowboy

climber
Greyrock, CO
Mar 10, 2015 - 11:42am PT
actually J-rig, the colloquial double-negative is quite correct in some cases.
jonnyrig

climber
Mar 10, 2015 - 11:43am PT
yeah.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 10, 2015 - 11:46am PT
I can't find a conservative website that agrees with Bundy owing the BLM more than $1,000,000 in unpaid grazing fees & fines.

However I did find a Glen Beck interview with Bundy that gives us an idea of his thought process on this matter.

I should mention that even Glenn Beck didn't agree with Bundy. As we know:
figures never lie, but liers do a lot of figuring.

http://www.glennbeck.com/2014/04/14/nevada-rancher-i-did-not-graze-my-cattle-on-united-states-property/

Glenn said, “I have people that graze on my land. And there is national land behind my ranch as well. And I know if anybody runs cattle on that, they also have to pay for grazing fees. Grazing fees are normal. And you stopped paying them. Your daughter said you did pay them for a while and then you stopped paying them. There are some people that would say that you are, if I may quote, a ‘welfare rancher’ because you’re not paying the fees that other ranchers do have to pay.”

“Let’s make sure we get this straight. I would pay my grazing fees to the proper government and I did try to pay my grazing fees to the proper government. I do not have a contract with the United States because I will not sign that contract with the United States,” Bundy explained. “I have no contract. I did not graze my cattle on the United States property. And I would pay my grazing fees to the proper government.”

Glenn asked him to clarify since in the Nevada State Constitution that land Bundy’s cattle are grazing on was given over to the federal government.

Below is a transcript of Bundy’s explanation: CLIVEN: Let’s talk about the — I really want to talk about that because that’s very important. You’re talking about the Enabling Act of the people of the territory of the state of Nevada. And remember, in the — section of the Constitution, we’re talking about territories of Nevada. Let me see if I can get that straight. What it says, it says the United States Congress will have power to dispose of all rules and regulations within the territory.

Now, let’s think what we’re doing. We’re talking about the territory of Nevada. People of the territory of Nevada. As they — they do not have the Constitution. They’re within the territory and Congress had an unlimited power to make all the rules and regulations. Okay. The people of the territory petitioned the United States Congress to make this a state. And they have a clouded title. So in order to clear their title, they give up their public domain — forever. It sounds terrible. Forever? But let me tell what you they had to do. They had to give it up forever so Congress would have a clear title. And what did Congress do? It made a state of Nevada. Which [indiscernible] a lot of them — quote Ed Presley here.

Here’s what Ed Presley said. It doesn’t matter what happened before statehood. What matters is what has happened at the moment of statehood. Now, if you think about that in the second. At the moment of statehood. What happened? At the moment of statehood the people of the territory become people of the United States with the Constitution with equal footing to the original 13 states. They had boundaries around them, a state line. And that boundary was divided into 17 subdivisions, which were county. I live in one of those counties: Clark County, Nevada. And in that county, Clark County, Nevada, we elect our county commissioners, which is the closest to we the peoplend we elect the county sheriff and we pay him to do what? Protect our life, liberty and property. I’m a citizen of that county. I abide by all the state laws.

Essentially, Bundy is saying this conflict isn’t inherently about grazing fees or water rights, but that he ultimately does not recognize the lands to be federal and the United States government or the BLM do not have jurisdiction on the land. “So I think this is very clarifying to people,” Glenn said. “It’s not BLM land. It’s Nevada land,” Bundy said.

“That is a different point of view than everybody else that is a rancher that I know,” Glenn said.
crankster

Trad climber
Mar 10, 2015 - 11:53am PT
You all realize you're trying to talk sense to a member of an extremist, armed, anti-government militia group, right? That puts him to the right of 99.999% of the US population.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 10, 2015 - 11:55am PT
Nothing like jailhouse lawyering, eh? It would be funny if'n it weren't so pathetic.
But more pathetic was the gubmint's response, or lack thereof. It takes
two to tango and sometimes it ain't pretty to watch.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 10, 2015 - 12:04pm PT
Kill you for shooting cows? Hell, they will threaten to shoot you for doing your job if you are employed by the federal gubmint.

But what the hell do I know, I am a Californicated liberal. I don't get off by fantazing about gun battles wih my fellow Americans. I'm a pussy.

Evidently threatening to shoot someone over a cow is par the course in Nevadstan, because it is still the the late 1800's there. Do they still string you up for stealin' a horse too?

crankster

Trad climber
Mar 10, 2015 - 12:22pm PT
Tax cheaters who choose to obey the laws they like and disobey the ones they don't.
They don't recognize the federal government.
These fringe domestic terrorists are dangerous. Lock em up.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 10, 2015 - 12:25pm PT
Ron,

I think you are basically a good guy. But there seems to be a lot of pent up anger and paranioa out there in Bunkerville, and I just don't get why it is worth spilliing blood over. If someone stuck a gun in my face or threatend to harm family, I would do everything a could to defend them or myself. But I don't want to live my life in that constant state of fear.

That is not what is going on here and you know it. This is not about defending your loved ones. This is about dodging a bill from the government. Stay on point.
jonnyrig

climber
Mar 10, 2015 - 12:33pm PT
Where did I say I agree with the extent of the protective actions they want to take on the sage grouse? I didn't. I said Cliven Bundy doesn't understand the law, from the Constitution on down. I said he's fighting a losing war, and that it's a mistake for militia groups to throw their lot in with him, because ultimately it's likely going to further damage our individual liberties as a result of unjustified armed actions against the federal government. I read the goddamn article.

You want to stop overreach of the federal govt? Great! Bundy's a f*#king lost cause, because he's already failed in federal court. He quit paying the goddamn fees. He doesn't recognize the federal government. He's too f*#king stupid to recognize that he's going to lose his ass in federal court to hire a goddamn attorney. He already f*#king lost. He is NOT the best cause to take up in the fight against environmental restrictions. He is NOT going to help the cause of individual freedoms and liberties. He does NOT understand the workings of the constitution on the federal level and how those interact with state and county laws and regulations. He's just taking advantage of the groups that came to rush in his fight to keep his cows, and his free grazing. This fight has been elevated FAR and above anything that Bundy thinks he has a right to, if only by his own poor verbal illustration of the situation.
You can claim it's a fight for our rights and freedoms all you want. It isn't over, and Bundy isn't going to win it. Further support of him and his obfuscated narrative of constitutional law, statehood, and law enforcement responsibility will accomplish nothing positive in the interpretation and advancement of individual freedoms in this country.

You, as a hunter and outdoorsman, are going to stand here and defend the grazing of cows in the high country as being a valid fire suppression tactic? Seriously? Yeah... man I just LOVE it when I'm out hunting elk and intermingled with the majestic bugling comes drifting along the frosty morning air some fat strangled "Mooooooooooouuuuueee" of disenchanted heifer wallowing in the mud. Feck. Next you'll be singing the praises of the wild horse.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 10, 2015 - 12:51pm PT
jonnyrig! Well said. Thank you.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Mar 10, 2015 - 01:10pm PT
I was doing some legal research pertaining to federal land and happened upon Bundy's case! Total nutcase arguments.
crankster

Trad climber
Mar 10, 2015 - 01:29pm PT
All this Harry Reid conspiracy nuttiness (myths circulated on extremists websites) have been thoroughly debunked.

Send the racist tax cheat to jail now.
jonnyrig

climber
Mar 10, 2015 - 01:32pm PT
I have to pick ONE? Frankly, I don't have a problem with mining, ranching, OR wind farms. Any of them would be just fine with me. Naturally, I'd want them to conduct themselves WITHIN THE LAW. I'd also expect them to only close off that area deemed necessary for safe operation, and allow public usage in the surrounding area.

For wind farms, that should be about 5 acres per mill. For mining? That depends on the size of the mine, now, doesn't it? Are you anti-mining in preference to ranching? Fracking I'm not wild about, and as of typing this sentence I don't recall what other options you gave me.

Boy? Ok old man. If you say so.
Nearsightedness? Hmm... duly noted. Don't get pissed off about it, you wanted me to read the article, I read it. Didn't seem to support your point of view in quite the manner you anticipated. It's called a difference of opinion IN THIS MATTER. Get over it.

I don't disagree with you that the government oversteps its bounds in some of these issues, and tends to take a far-too-restrictive approach in their attempt to curtail usage by some groups.

Ranchers may have contributed to maintenance of private land usage in the past, but they are often times at odds with current wildlife management due to damage caused by such populations of elk and deer. So don't come off touting them as the reasonable harbinger of good hunting fortune that you make them out to be. Most of the ranchers I've met has looked at me with skepticism, falling just short of calling me an idiot when they say "don't shoot my cows."

Boy? Huh. Geez. Like you're trying to insult me or something. I know your views on the horses. It's a joke. Laugh a little.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 10, 2015 - 01:37pm PT
Right wing disinformation: Bundy’s Land Is NOT Solar Farm for Harry Reid

http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2014/04/13/right-wing-disinformation-bundys-land-is-not-solar-farm-for-harry-reid/

The Solar Farm land is near Laughlin 300 hundred miles away from Bunkerville
Yet, ron clings to the propaganda
jonnyrig

climber
Mar 10, 2015 - 01:54pm PT
No, not intended as a slap in the face.

There seem to be a lot of competing entities for land usage, and though I'm not crazy about over-reaching government in the manner they propose to protect sage grouse, I'm also not wild about Chinese solar farms going in. The one wind farm project that was proposed to me was actually a US based firm, looking at the Virginia range up in my property's area. That project got shut down by local opposition. They didn't want their precious view spoiled. They objected to corporate entities operating on private land (which much of that range actually is), all the while operating their own farms, ranches, and private business in the valley below. It isn't just the government that speaks out of both sides of their mouths, Ron.

I've clearly stated my concern about the actions taking place in so-called Bundyville and how they're handling their opposition to so-called government land-grabs. If anything is short-sighted, it's thinking that local armed opposition is going to have a long-term net positive effect toward gaining state or personal rights. It's not that they opposed the government, it's the manner in which they did it and their seeming inability to take the fight to the government level with a winning argument, which ultimately is what it's going to take to win that kind of battle... finding some government action unconstitutional in a federal court of law. That's the part your boys are missing down there.
thebravecowboy

climber
Greyrock, CO
Mar 10, 2015 - 02:21pm PT
yes, this tyranny of paying for what we take from the collective commons is unjust. /snark
jonnyrig

climber
Mar 10, 2015 - 02:39pm PT
Here,s the thing- its just my personal opinion based on the available facts. I could very well be wrong. It aint over, and time will tell the final outcome. Dont think for a second the feds just threw up their arms in a big "oh well"and gave up the ghost.
crankster

Trad climber
Mar 10, 2015 - 03:01pm PT
This thread, not surprisingly, provides a reactionary, far-right extremist a forum to spout the usual nonsense his ilk feeds on.
dirtbag

climber
Mar 10, 2015 - 03:29pm PT
Actually, you would first need to show that cows and horses eat the same species of plants.
jonnyrig

climber
Mar 10, 2015 - 04:55pm PT
Seen quite a few sage grouse up on Tule Peak near Pyramid, out by Leadville up north of Gerlach, in the Virginia Range, in the Ruby's, and most recently while hunting deer out of Mary's River Basin on the south end of Jarbidge Wilderness. They're definitely around. Makes me jump when they let me walk by before flushing out.
hashbro

Trad climber
Mental Physics........
Mar 10, 2015 - 07:28pm PT
http://www.hcn.org/articles/cliven-bundy-rancher-nevada-scofflaw?utm_source=wcn1&utm_medium=email

An update on Nevada scofflaw Cliven Bundy

The rancher still has influence in some circles, and has yet to be fully reprimanded for trespass cattle and unpaid fees.

It’s been almost a year since the standoff between Bureau of Land Management officials and rancher scofflaw Cliven Bundy. In that time, Bundy has gone from being just a rancher who wouldn’t pay his fees, to a lasting political figure that the far-right anti-federal government set continues to coalesce around.

Last April, BLM rounded up 300 of Bundy’s cattle in southern Nevada’s Clark County, because the livestock were trespassing on public land and had been doing so, on and off, for decades. Bundy owed taxpayers some $1 million in unpaid grazing fees and fines, which to this day he has not settled. In response to the impoundment, anti-federal ideologues and members of militia groups from surrounding states gathered near the Bundy ranch to support his protest of the cattle seizure and his beliefs that the BLM had no authority over where he could graze his cattle. An estimated 300 people congregated at the side of the road near the Bunkerville grazing allotment and at least one militia group member aimed a rifle at the federal agents below. Fearing an escalation to violence, the government officials aborted their mission—they released the cattle and left.
Cliven Bundy speaking at a July 2014 forum hosted by the American Academy for Constitutional Education (AAFCE) at the Burke Basic School in Mesa, Arizona. Photo by Flickr user Gage Skidmore.
Much ink has been spilled over whether the BLM should have waited for a better time for the impoundment or simply put its foot down years ago; and whether the sheriff’s department promised to help with security during the impoundment, but failed to show up, as BLM officials have said. It’s clear that Bundy was, and still is, breaking federal law, which states that BLM controls where ranchers can and cannot graze on public land it manages.

By all accounts, Bundy still has not been charged for the trespassing cattle or the unpaid fines. Bundy told me in an email that his cattle have “all returned back to their normal grazing habitat”—i.e., where the BLM restricts grazing in part because it’s sensitive desert tortoise habitat. The BLM would not confirm or deny that, nor would the agency comment on whether security has been increased or procedures have changed in Nevada, or agency-wide as a result of the standoff, except to say that they “implement routine security measures at many public meetings.”

Environmental groups are urging the feds not to let Bundy off the hook. On Feb. 26, the Center for Biological Diversity wrote a public letter to Interior Secretary Sally Jewell and U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder imploring them to act on the Bundy case and report progress toward resolving it. In a budget hearing last week, Jewell said that “any kind of investigation of federal crimes that have been committed” are in the hands of the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Department of Justice. (The FBI reportedly opened an investigation last year over possible threats to law enforcement officers and illegal weapons, but the agency declined to comment for this story.) The whistleblower nonprofit Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility (PEER), says that the DOJ is likely sitting on the case. But Natalie Collins, a spokeswoman for the U.S. Attorney in Nevada, said that she cannot confirm or deny whether the Department of Justice has an open case on Bundy, and the BLM has remained mum as well.

But since the standoff last April, the Clark County rancher hasn’t just hunkered down to wait and see what the feds will do. He described to HCN over e-mail that the standoff has given him “a wider opportunity to speak and more influence.” He and his close supporters have continued to voice their political views about the federal government, which have bled into the local process to update a BLM resource management plan for southern Nevada.

In December, Bundy declared at a Nye County Commissioners meeting (which borders his home county) that the federal government has no authority and urged locals to cease engagement with the BLM altogether. Commissioner Dan Schinhofen recalls that Ammon Bundy, son of Cliven, said at the meeting that if commissioners even communicated with the federal agency, they should be thrown out of office. According to the Pahrump Valley Times, Cliven Bundy helped spur the passage of an anti-BLM resolution in Nye County. Commissioner Donna Cox, who shares some similar views with the Bundys, proposed the resolution to categorically say "no” to the BLM.

“I think she envisioned that (we would) not further work on the resource management plan and (the BLM) would just run away and go hide,” Schinhofen told me. “But (the BLM’s) going to do their RMP process no matter what. Their bosses are telling them to do it.”

Despite the lingering support for Bundy in some corners, for Schinhofen and at least one other commissioner, the Bundys lean too far right. “Supposedly I'm now the BLM apologist,” Schinhofen says. But in Nye County, that isn’t saying much. He and other commissioners are part of an effort to transfer federal public lands to state control—a local manifestation of a larger movement afoot, currently centered in Utah. They don’t want BLM controlling their recreation areas and grazing allotments, but at least they’re trying to make change through laws that already exist, he says—writing a proposal to reverse them, and working with the agency on things like resource management plans in the meantime.

Bundy's anti-federal influence continues to be inspiring to at least a few hundred people in Schinhofen’s area and likely many more beyond. A November 2014 BLM public meeting in Pahrump, Nevada, to discuss the proposed management plan (the same one that prompted some commissioners to resolve to say "no" to the BLM) was canceled after a hundred or so people showed up to protest—too many to fit into the community hall the meeting was scheduled for. According to commissioner Lorinda Wichman, Bundy supporters had sent an email blast to locals, encouraging them to show up to “help save our right to use our public lands,” to protest any potential BLM “retaliation of the Bundy family,” (which some Bundyites have claimed is one of the goals of the resource management plan) and calling the BLM the “Bureau of Land Grabbing Maggots.”

And every day that passes without a federal government move to prosecute Bundy is a day that he and his followers are emboldened. “We have not been bothered by nor have we even seen a US government licensed vehicle of any kind on the Bundy Ranch or the northeast portion of Clark County,” Bundy said in his email, referring to the last 11 months. “Cattle prices are good and green grass is growing!”

Tay Wiles is the online editor of High Country News.

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 10, 2015 - 07:41pm PT
Send in some Black drones to see what's going on in Bunkerville.

After they shoot em down, go in an arrest them for damaging Gov. property

There is nothing more feared than Black Helicopters in backwater America
John M

climber
Mar 10, 2015 - 08:41pm PT
Hashbro that is yet another d#@&%e nozzle article filled with the same lies like a million dollar grazing bill.


weak sauce there..

ah Ron.. you mean like the article that you posted which you said gave the background of the story, yet it said the bundy's owned the land since 1887….

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/04/15/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-long-fight-between-cliven-bundy-and-the-federal-government/

which is a lie..

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25302186/an-abbreviated-look-at-rancher-cliven-bundys-family-history
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Mar 10, 2015 - 09:09pm PT
Maybe we could get 'the chief' to counsel Bundy so he can grow up and not be a burden on society.

10b4me

Social climber
Mar 24, 2015 - 01:14pm PT
Sorry, Ron.

http://www.kcet.org/news/redefine/rewild/reptiles/study-grazing-vehicles-bad-for-desert-tortoises.html
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Mar 24, 2015 - 07:26pm PT
Anyone who thinks our rotten, sociopathic government cares the least bit about the health desert tortoises needs to open their eyes a bit....
thebravecowboy

climber
Greyrock, CO
Mar 24, 2015 - 10:45pm PT
ahh, yes, one must defer in this country to the noble cow, the slow elk, the trampler, the defecator.

And certainly to the rancher that monopolizes the few, sacred, public waterholes, allowing them to sh#t in such.

Noble cow, indeed.

Noble rancher, indeed.


and yeah, noble raven is pretty hilarious.
thebravecowboy

climber
Greyrock, CO
Mar 24, 2015 - 10:53pm PT
it's not about some herp-tortoise, derp.

nor about the carrion-eating crows.

it's about drinkable surface water. for me anyway.
thebravecowboy

climber
Greyrock, CO
Mar 24, 2015 - 10:59pm PT
somehow I don't think that a hiker could walk through there these days.
somehow I don't think that a hiker would desire to drink of those waters these days.

yes, Mr. Anderson, the ranch-man has made many fine spring-well improvements. Generally, I think this is great. And somehow, rarely when cattle are about do I find access to trusty tasty water.

It would be quite instructive if one were to walk through and see the place. Can you hook me up with a pass? Burnside Brigade Bro-pass?


Kidding aside, can you help me to see what the BLM did to his waterhole improvements? Surely in this digital age there exists documentation of such tyrannical, insane behavior, if such was done by the noble (;-)) BLM.

Did not these particular ranch-folk receive subsidy for such range improvements? If the BLM did as you say, that is indeed a big deal. Can you hook it up on some info?
thebravecowboy

climber
Greyrock, CO
Mar 24, 2015 - 11:15pm PT
cool! so next time I roll through, I may just try and hike it. Because it is, you know, public land.


Edit: could you point out a particular incident of the BLM destroying range waterhole improvements?
thebravecowboy

climber
Greyrock, CO
Mar 24, 2015 - 11:29pm PT
man, I like fishing, but not like that.

meanwhile, those goddamn cattle trails are still pretty helpful sometimes. less'n you're a tortoize
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Mar 25, 2015 - 10:38am PT
The silence of the Justice Dept is deafening.
The wheels of justice grind slowly but exceeding fine.

The damage range cattle do to natural water courses far outweighs the ecological benefits of Blunty's water "improvements".
A close perusal of Google Earth around Blunderville will show you.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Mar 25, 2015 - 11:30am PT
There could be a cause and effect that attracts animals that shouldn't be in that area with freash water available.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 25, 2015 - 12:15pm PT
A little more Bundy history, for those that don't remember, or choose to ignore it.

Here's a summary of this tax-cheater's right-wing history: https://www.hcn.org/blogs/goat/in-nevada-delicate-20-year-standoff-with-blm-ends-in-a-tense-roundup



It was the tortoise that kicked off the saga in 1993, when the BLM modified the terms of Bundy’s Bunkerville grazing allotment to protect the animal after it was listed as threatened under the Endangered Species Act.

Bundy refused to comply with the new terms, so the BLM cancelled his permit to no effect.

In 1997, Clark County purchased all active grazing permits in the area in accordance with the new federal Desert Tortoise Recovery Plan and the county’s own Desert Conservation Program, offering Bundy compensation for water rights and range improvements on his former allotment.

Bundy rejected the offer.

In 1999, the Nevada District Court permanently banned Bundy from grazing cattle in the area, ordering him to remove them or face a $200 penalty per cow per day. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the injunction.

Between 2008 and 2011, the BLM cancelled Bundy’s remaining range improvement authorizations.

In 2011 Bundy ignored several court orders, including a notice of impoundment. Over the next two years, the BLM aerially counted first 903, then 729, then 600, then 750 head of cattle, nearly all suspected to belong to Bundy, on land closed to grazing.

And a photo of some of Bundy's happy cattle at an "improved" waterhole.


Newspaper link, click photo for slideshow. http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/bundy-blm/feds-start-rounding-bundy-s-cattle-northeastern-clark-county
crankster

Trad climber
Mar 25, 2015 - 12:17pm PT
He can't run and hide forever.
10b4me

Social climber
Mar 25, 2015 - 01:09pm PT
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Mar 25, 2015 - 03:00pm PT
Wow, if only there was a way to verify that.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Mar 25, 2015 - 03:18pm PT
They simply wanted that land cleared to develop energy and exploration

Man, Ron, you know next to nothing about energy exploration. On the oil and gas end, you can farm crops, raise cattle, or build buildings on the surface. All you need is a 5 acre pad for the big wells, and where it is located is flexible.

Oklahoma, Texas, and Kansas are covered with oil fields that lie below farms and cities.

Surface usage doesn't matter. Oil and gas production has enabled many farmers and ranchers lots of money.

I've said this before, but stuff like this has nothing to do with oil and gas production. NOTHING....
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 25, 2015 - 04:12pm PT
Geez Ron,

If you want to expose government corruption and mistreatment of the common man, you may want to unhook your wagon from the Bundy Klan. They have to be about the most unsympathetic characters around.

Aren't there some other God fearin', salt o' the earth, rugged western individualists that the gubmint is screwin' that aren't convicted, freeloading tax evaders?

Maybe find one of them and start another crusade.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 25, 2015 - 05:03pm PT
Blundy is a welfare rancher on the federal teet.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Mar 25, 2015 - 05:08pm PT
The message that Bunkerville sent out is that you can NOT act like NAZIs here in the USA. No matter the legal "beef".

Yes because their one sided position trumps all.

Nothing Nazi about that.


Edit,
The "elderly lady" was accidentally bumped to one knee and was helped up immediately.
If they were half the men they think they are they would not have had women and children out there to hide behind.
Chickens, every one of them.

And yes, I'd put a no fly zone in effect with that many idiots with rifles out there.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 25, 2015 - 05:23pm PT
I haven't cheated on my taxes, and the fact that you would use that as justification for supporting the Bundy Klan pretty much says it all.

Put the shovel down.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 25, 2015 - 05:47pm PT
The message that Bunkerville sent out is that you can NOT act like NAZIs here in the USA

Actually, that's exactly what it proved. Bundy and his brownshirts got away with it didn't they?
crankster

Trad climber
Mar 25, 2015 - 05:59pm PT
Bundy is supported here by a guy who regularly uses the term "my militia" in a sentence. So that's the level of ultra-right extremism you're dealing with.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Mar 25, 2015 - 06:10pm PT
Actually, that's exactly what it proved. Bundy and his brownshirts got away with it didn't they?

So far, but I wouldn't bet about that in the long run.

BENNAZI!!!!!!!
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Mar 25, 2015 - 06:25pm PT
They poked a bear, then the bear reared up and......




















hid behind his wife and cub.

Cowards.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 25, 2015 - 06:31pm PT
Ron??? Re your comment:
Spot on Gary.

I think you need to read Gary's post again. He is calling Bundy supporters Nazis. (which is pretty correct from my end too.)

Gary:
Actually, that's exactly what it proved. Bundy and his brownshirts got away with it didn't they?

From Encyclopedia Britannica:
SA, abbreviation of Sturmabteilung (German: “Assault Division”), byname Storm Troopers, or Brownshirts, German Sturmtruppen, or Braunhemden, in the German Nazi Party, a paramilitary organization whose methods of violent intimidation played a key role in Adolf Hitler’s rise to power
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Mar 25, 2015 - 06:36pm PT
Ill bet the MAJORITY here have "cheated" on their taxes.

Didn't you mean that the majority (anywhere in the U.S.) has been cheated on their taxes?


The message that Bunkerville sent out is that you can NOT act like NAZIs here in the USA. No matter the legal "beef".

Of course you can if you're a cop. It happens every fuc**king day.

I personally know lawyers who defend folks successfully from paying taxes without ever once summoning up the crazy militia.







thebravecowboy

climber
Greyrock, CO
Mar 25, 2015 - 06:39pm PT
Now Werner, what's so bad about pussy? Seems pretty nice to me.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Mar 25, 2015 - 06:44pm PT
Crankloon the pussy insecure nutcase coward loon creep stalker shows his usual stupid nutcase posts.

Are you talking about yourself? Most of your posts are like this one....

Can't you EVER be positive?
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 25, 2015 - 06:51pm PT
Ron: Thanks for the bluster! I was trying to be pleasant, but if you want to be "a Brownshirt" --- that does explain a lot about you-----that makes total sense.

Ron??? Re your comment:
Spot on Gary.

I think you need to read Gary's post again. He is calling Bundy supporters Nazis. (which is pretty correct from my end too.)

Gary:
Actually, that's exactly what it proved. Bundy and his brownshirts got away with it didn't they?

From Encyclopedia Britannica:

SA, abbreviation of Sturmabteilung (German: “Assault Division”), byname Storm Troopers, or Brownshirts, German Sturmtruppen, or Braunhemden, in the German Nazi Party, a paramilitary organization whose methods of violent intimidation played a key role in Adolf Hitler’s rise to power
John Burns

climber
Pothole, Utah
Mar 25, 2015 - 07:30pm PT
^that's right, Cpt. A, fukk the brownshirts. you and me the both seem to really kinda advocate a style of uber-proud agrarian anarcho-syndicalism...which is admirable, really, despite some obvious contradictions in terms. viva anarchist-unionist Bundy! viva la revolución!


welp, I s'pose the democratic polling here on this site is done. comes down conclusively on the side of....






































paying your taxes. like the rest of us.

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 25, 2015 - 07:35pm PT
Folks with spines indeed.

Gotta love the bear waking up to stand up for their right to mooch like the socialists they hate so much!!
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Mar 25, 2015 - 07:37pm PT
Wait a minute. Bundy got all he has on one of those, we'll pay your taxes sales.

John Burns

climber
Pothole, Utah
Mar 25, 2015 - 07:38pm PT
generally, I would suppose that a proper socialist would be pretty proud to pay taxes in support of the public good. you know, like caring for the weakest and most vulnerable amongst us. you know, from the spare change on hand kinda deal.

or I guess we could always brown-shirt/shultzenstaffel (SS) it and just go for eugenics, amirite?


And yes, MM Anderson, I must agree, F*#K THE POLICE.



And yes, SIC, "I don't give a fukk where the eagle flies"
[Click to View YouTube Video]


Time bomb tickin' away I'm reelin'
You can't smell all the rage I'm feelin'
Ten pound sledge and a skullf*#k sleep
Osama bin comin' he knows my name
//Feel like kickin' a cop today
And I'm not sorry I feel this way//
All the king's horses and all his men
Succeeded in pissin' me off again

Up in the sky it's a bird it's a plane
It's a thorn in my side and it makes me insane
Aryan race with american eyes
And I don't give a f*#k where the eagle flies

//Homeland security bullshit patriot
Act like men if you want to be free//
Rock and roll ain't my salvation
But it makes me everythin' you can't be
Gotta chop down the burnin' bush
And I'm not buying the drugs you push
Killin' all the people that you don't like
Are you gonna kill me tonight?

Up in the sky it's a bird it's a plane
It's a thorn in my side and it makes me insane
Aryan race with american eyes
And I don't give a f*#k where the eagle flies

Shavin' your head in that old kinda way
Yeah don't try to hide cause we know that you're gay
Call me a terrorist and I know why
Cause I don't give a f*#k where the eagle flies

Can't you handle a man like me
No mistake and no apology
Livin' the good old american way
Don't want to piss in a cup today

Oh yes, this'n too.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

I would suggest that that the lyrics might be instructive, but...I ain't changing yer mind nor you mine. *


And yet here we are.

*WOW! this is discursive democracy just as my neighbor idealizes. Ron, we together can be the future of a truly fundamental and proletarian leap forward in American democracy. Wow! CIRCLE_JERK TIME!
John Burns

climber
Pothole, Utah
Mar 25, 2015 - 08:07pm PT
And a hint to the Bundy-ists...some folk know the English lang'ge pretty good. And they might be recent-er arrivals than you...
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 25, 2015 - 08:44pm PT
you and me the both seem to really kinda advocate a style of uber-proud agrarian anarcho-syndicalism...which is admirable, really, despite some obvious contradictions in terms. viva anarchist-unionist Bundy! viva la revolución!

Now that's interesting! Bundy as a Wobbly! He's influenced by CNT/FAI? A libertarian communist!

No pasaran! Viva Bundy!
crankster

Trad climber
Mar 25, 2015 - 09:05pm PT
Lock this freeloading, racist moocher up.
10b4me

Social climber
Mar 26, 2015 - 08:49am PT
http://www.hcn.org/articles/obama-s-trying-to-hike-grazing-fees
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Mar 30, 2015 - 11:28am PT
There is speculation that the Federal government might be in the process of arresting those morons that pointed rifles at law enforcement a year ago



Stephen Dean was an active participant at Bundy ranch. The indictment might be sealed until all criminals are arrested

From a right wing nut job website:

BIG NEWS FROM THE BUNKER:

John Darash has sent you a group email from National Liberty Alliance.
NLA emergency message from Eric; Courtroom Observer Director
As many may or may not know National Liberty Alliance Utah State Coordinator Stephen L Dean was arrested late last week on trumped up charges.
Please call the following concerning his present condition and ask why they executed an unsigned warrant with no sworn affidavit and why is his case sealed?
Jail ask for Sargent Hansen 801-851-4210
Marshal James A Thompson 801-524-8693
State police lieutenant colonel Daniel Fuhr (801) 965-4518,
FBI Special agent in charge Mary Francis Rook 801-579-1400;
Utah county sheriff Jim Tracy 801-851-4001,
Judge Dee Benson 801-524-6160,
Colin Bircumshaw the Vicar General for Utah 801-328-8641.

Ask these 4 questions:
(1) Why would you violate 18 USC 922/G1 by placing a firearm in the hands of a convicted felon?
(2) Why would you execute a warrant with no signature from a judge? The clerk does not qualify...
(3) Why did you take Stephen Dean 60 miles to another county for detainment?
(4) What is your relationship with Colin Bircumshaw the Vicar General for Utah?
Please stand with Stephen, when your time comes you will hope for the same.

Thank you,

ERIC HUGHES
Court Room Observers
585-730-9220
hashbro

Trad climber
Mental Physics........
Mar 30, 2015 - 12:05pm PT
www.wildearthguardians.org/site/DocServer/Report_Mortgaging_Our_Natural_Heritage.pdf?docID=962


how our public lands are really being used, and by whom
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Mar 30, 2015 - 02:29pm PT
Clearly it's bogus since he was "arrested late last week on trumped up charges."

However, I would like to know why
ERIC HUGHES Court Room Observers 585-730-9220
doesn't have a toll-free number.

Can't this group qualify as a non-profit?



This link works. I didn't read it yet, but here's the conclusion (for those who won't read the whole thing).

http://www.wildearthguardians.org/site/DocServer/Report_Mortgaging_Our_Natural_Heritage.pdf?docID=962

The Bottom Line
Former Secretary of the Interior Bruce Babbitt has written that federal public lands livestock grazing “is the most damaging use of public land,”35 and reams of scientific studies support that assertion.36 Federal public lands grazing is also among the most expensive public lands boondoggles foisted on American taxpayers.

The Government Accountability Office determined that federal grazing programs cost at least $144 million annually (minus grazing fees). A separate economic study conducted by independent and BLM economists found that the direct and indirect costs of BLM and Forest Service public lands grazing are probably much higher, between $500 million and $1 billion per year.38 It is estimated that 25 percent of the Bureau of Land Management’s budget is spent directly or indirectly on public lands grazing, and paltry federal grazing fees ($1.56 per AUM in 2006) do not even begin to cover the costs of the BLM grazing program.

These fiscal costs do not account for the massive environmental costs or the social and economic trade-offs involved in public lands grazing. While the federal government spends countless dollars to support public lands ranching—including myriad indirect costs for fencing, cattle guards across roadways, protecting fragile riparian areas and archeological sites from livestock, habitat improvement and restoration, invasive species removal, fire control, and monitoring of livestock—other, more valuable opportunities to use and recreate on public lands are squandered. Recreation and tourism are more important to western state economies than livestock grazing, both in terms of employment and income, but federal grazing programs steal resources from and rob the potential of these alternative economies.

The bottom line – public lands grazing in the West is neither economically nor environmentally sustainable. It is an antiquated industry, as outmoded as whaling in today’s oceans.41 It is doubtful that the industry could survive without government subsidies and operating loans backed by publicly owned grazing permits. Still, the industry persists as one of the mystical “Lords of Yesterday.”42 The cowboy myth of ranching, despite a colorful history and a vibrant mythos, now masks a multitude of sins.





StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 30, 2015 - 02:49pm PT
Great article hashbro.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 31, 2015 - 08:52am PT
How, and with what justification, does the Nevada legislature think they
can over-rule federal law? Am I missing something or am I giving them more
credit than is due?
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Mar 31, 2015 - 09:06am PT
Supremacy clause. Nevada can't do shite about federal public lands besides waste tax payer money passing and defending facially invalid laws.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Mar 31, 2015 - 09:37am PT
I'm surrounded by ranches here in cattle country, and not one, not one rancher that I've talked to is in support of Bundy. Almost everyone of them lease federal land too.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Mar 31, 2015 - 10:58am PT
Yep, there will be plenty of people supporting the free-loader, mostly from out of the state. Will be a good opportunity for the Feds to pick up more of the criminals from a year ago.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 31, 2015 - 11:41am PT
I strongly suspect Idaho's legislature is more right-wing and more wacky than Nevada's legislature.

However, they gave up on passing a bill to seize Federal lands after Idaho's Republican Attorney General said it would be illegal under existing state & federal laws.


The Idaho Legislature Public Lands Interim Committee Releases Report!

The Good News
The report indicates that Idaho does not have a constitutional or legal argument that would advance the cause in court. In other words, it is unconstitutional to demand the United States cede the land to the state.
Additionally, economic research from the University of Idaho show that under moderate economic conditions, Idaho is likely to lose 64 million dollars a year if it was to take management control of our public lands.

The Bad News is the committee wants to use our tax dollars to create another committee to keep trying to grab those Federal Lands.

“Simultaneously, the Legislature should consider authorizing and funding……a full-time, staffed position and administrative assistant and establishment of a permanent commission or working group to implement recommendations adopted by the Legislature and signed into law……Transfer of federal jurisdiction should be seen as and supported as a long-term effort, worthy of annual appropriations starting at $250,000.”
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Mar 31, 2015 - 12:25pm PT
I'd like to go up there and lend some support to Bundy (at least he didn't kill a whole bunch of women (that we know of)).

However, to my everlasting chagrin, I have misplaced the bolt to my rifle. It doesn't get used a lot so I think it's understandable.

Stay strong Cliven.

Do you think he's feeling a little jealous of his namesake?


Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Mar 31, 2015 - 12:36pm PT
Well, Ron was right, there was a huge crowd at the AB408 rally. Of course not everyone there supported AB408


Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 31, 2015 - 01:27pm PT
Jon! Thanks for the photos of the huge group at the "Steal the Federal Land" rally in Carson City.

I liked the counter-protest sign.

crankster

Trad climber
Mar 31, 2015 - 03:31pm PT
That rivals Woodstock.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Mar 31, 2015 - 03:41pm PT
Did Ron's Militia show up for the protest? It looks like only 20 people made it out there.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 31, 2015 - 03:45pm PT
Ted Bundy tried to pick up my would-be wife in a Safeway in Seattle.
How did he get to be a rancher?
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Mar 31, 2015 - 06:29pm PT
Does it peve you off to see people standing for their rights?

Hell no it doesn't. It does kind of peeve me that folks are attempting to stand on top of people for rights that they do not have.




Reilly. So many shots to be taken on that one, that I'd risk shooting myself in the foot.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Mar 31, 2015 - 06:41pm PT
Reilly..that's too bad...Think of all the tri tip you could have been eating...
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Mar 31, 2015 - 06:56pm PT
Does it peve you off to see people standing for their rights?

Does not peve me off in the least bit Ron, this is a free country. I served 4 years to protect their right to demand a free lunch. If they get a free lunch then good for them. Between you and me there will be no payday for any of them on this one. They might want to set their sights just a little lower, maybe not try to grab 85% of Nevada.

The politicians will make some hay with the right wing. Does that make you happy? Your tax dollars hard at work. Okay, maybe it is not hard work. On the bright side, this keeps those nutters busy. Idle hands are the devils workshop.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 31, 2015 - 07:27pm PT
Ron...I think you're a decent guy that I would want on my side in a pinch. Stop sticking up for that moron....he doesn't deserve your, or anyone's, support.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 31, 2015 - 07:49pm PT
Ron...I know you're familiar with the the old western saying....." you can bring a horse to water but you can't make him drink."
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 31, 2015 - 08:04pm PT
Reid might not go to jail, but someone sure beat his ass.

He didn't have any exercise accident.
thebravecowboy

climber
Greyrock, CO
Mar 31, 2015 - 08:16pm PT
yeah the exercise accident thing did seem odd, even on the radio. anyone spare a little gossip? I know you gots it. Was it the Chinese? Bill Clinton? Bill Clinton AND the Chinese?

Still though, C. Bundy is a moooooch. The best way to respond to the alleged (and not totally improbable) improprieties on the part of the BLM/legislature/gub'mint generally:

cover your ass by staying right there in the straight and narrow and paying proper taxes, etc. I mean, did he pay anything?

And yeah, it is sad to see welfare beef/"local" [read: federally-subsidized] ranchers disappear from NV, but, well, follerin' the rules might be advised if'n the man has his sights set on you. this is not calculus III, here.



And yes, I will re-state, not a big fan of cow-trodden mud-and-sh#t-filled range "improvements."

BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Mar 31, 2015 - 08:21pm PT
According to the National Cattleman's Beef Association, Nevada is a puny beef producer, with a whopping 1/2 of 1% of the National beef production.

Why? There isn't much water.

I'm with Ed Abbey. Guy's like Bundy overgraze the land and pretty much destroy it. Bundy can't even make a living off his land. He has ranched for free on from (Bundy's Wiki Page):

On March 27, 2014, 145,604 acres of federal land in Clark County were temporarily closed for the "capture, impound, and removal of trespass cattle".[5] BLM officials and law enforcement rangers began a roundup of such livestock on April 5, and an arrest was made the next day. On April 12, a group of protesters, some of them armed,[6] advanced on what the BLM described as a "cattle gather."[7] Sheriff Doug Gillespie negotiated with Bundy and newly confirmed BLM director Neil Kornze,[8] who elected to release the cattle and de-escalate the situation.[

The legal basics:

The ongoing dispute began in 1993, when, in protest against changes to grazing rules,[2] Bundy declined to renew his permit for cattle grazing on BLM-administered lands near Bunkerville, Nevada.[3] In 1998, Bundy was prohibited by the United States District Court for the District of Nevada from grazing his cattle on an area of land later called the Bunkerville Allotment.[3] In July 2013, the BLM complaint was supplemented when federal judge Lloyd D. George ordered that Bundy refrain from trespassing on federally administered land in the Gold Butte area of Clark County

Bundy had zero right to use that land from any conceivable legal standpoint. Grazing allotments are common in the west and ranchers pay the grazing fees, which aren't excessive.

This whole deal boils down to Bundy's crazy interpretation of the law, by believing that the county sheriff is the only one with any legal power.

Have you guys seen that country? Dry as a bone.

Also from the beef producer's website:

•More than 50 percent of the total value of U.S. sales of cattle and calves comes from the top 5 states:
1. Texas
2. Nebraska
3. Kansas
4. California
5. Oklahoma

There is nothing here but a bunch of militia idiots who don't recognize basic law.

As for Ron's theories that Bundy was ejected from his land for some nefarious reason, Nevada is covered with equally dry scrub land for as far as the eye can see.

There is one thing that I think would be a good idea: In some of the western states where private land is a rarity, the federal government should sell some of it to private owners, but not in an open bid setting. If you did that, the big rich landowners would just get bigger and richer.

It wouldn't have to be very much. There is a ton of BLM land that could be let go in 160 acre allotments, similar to the patents of the past.
thebravecowboy

climber
Greyrock, CO
Mar 31, 2015 - 08:31pm PT
Those island ranges are special spots, Ron. Definitely. There is magic out there, hidden from the drive-through terrain along most interstates.

All the more reason to keep cattle out of those rarified and better-vegetated spots.

And the price of beef? Well, some of us don't/can't/won't buy steak to begin with.
hashbro

Trad climber
Mental Physics........
Mar 31, 2015 - 08:45pm PT
a billion taxpayer dollars to welfare cowboys

doesn't sound like fiscal conservatism...more like socialism for the old boys!

-----------------------------------------------------------------


Study: Livestock Grazing on Public Lands Cost Taxpayers $1 Billion Over Past Decade

WASHINGTON— A new analysis finds U.S. taxpayers have lost more than $1 billion over the past decade on a program that allows cows and sheep to graze on public land. Last year alone taxpayers lost $125 million in grazing subsidies on federal land. Had the federal government charged fees similar to grazing rates on non-irrigated private land, the program would have made $261 million a year on average rather than operate at a staggering loss, the analysis finds.
Costs and Consequences

The study, Costs and Consequences: The Real Price of Livestock Grazing on America’s Public Lands, comes as the Obama administration prepares Friday to announce grazing fees for the upcoming year on 229 million acres of publicly owned land, most of it in the West. The report was prepared by economists on behalf of the Center for Biological Diversity.

“Public lands grazing has been a billion-dollar boondoggle over the past decade and hasn’t come close to paying for itself,” said Randi Spivak with the Center for Biological Diversity. “Livestock owners pay less to graze their animals on publically owned land in 2014 than they did in 1981. Today the monthly cost of allowing a cow and calf to graze on federal lands is about the equivalent of a can of dog food. This damaging and expensive grazing program has been broken for years and needs to be fixed. Taxpayers, and the land we all own, deserve better.”

The gap between federal grazing fees and non-irrigated private land rates has widened considerably, according to the study. Bureau of Land Management and U.S. Forest Service grazing fees are $1.35 per month per animal unit (a cow and a calf), just 6.72 percent of what it would cost to graze livestock on private grazing lands. This is a marked decline from the federal fee being 23.79 percent of non-irrigated private rates when the federal fee first went into effect in 1981.

“The fees for grazing on U.S. Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management lands needs to be seriously reevaluated,” said Christine Glaser, an economist with GreenFire Consulting and author of the report. “Over the past three decades the fee formula has clearly decoupled public grazing fees from the development of private, state and other federal agencies grazing fees. Bottom line, this formula shields public lands ranchers from grazing rate increases that every other livestock operator has to live with.”

There are about 800,000 livestock operators and cattle producers in the United States. Of those, fewer than 21,000 — or 2.7 percent of the nation’s total livestock operators — benefit from the Forest Service and BLM grazing programs in the West.

“The Public Rangeland Improvement Act subsidizes a small segment of the livestock industry,” said the study’s co-author and former Interior Department economist Chuck Romaniello. “There needs to be a discussion as to what the appropriate level of that subsidy should be, including if there should be a subsidy at all.”

The federal subsidy of the grazing program goes beyond the direct costs and fees. There are vast indirect costs to grazing on federal lands, including the government killing of native carnivores perceived as threats to livestock, wildfire suppression caused by invasive cheat grass facilitated by cattle grazing, and expenditure of U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service funds from protecting other species threatened by livestock grazing. “The full cost of the federal grazing program is long overdue for a complete analysis,” the study said.

The Center for Biological Diversity is a national, nonprofit conservation organization with more than 800,000 members and online activists dedicated to the protection of endangered species and wild places.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Mar 31, 2015 - 09:20pm PT
Dirty Harry Ried NOT running again.................. Don't think this is any co-incidence either.

Wow, I agree with Ron, there isn't any coincidence with Ried retiring.


donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 31, 2015 - 09:22pm PT
There is nobody with the name Harry Ried in Congress, nor has there ever been.
thebravecowboy

climber
Greyrock, CO
Mar 31, 2015 - 09:23pm PT
^shoot JD, you've got the spell-check in you too? A curse I say.



So what happened with the "exerfise assident"?

Can I get a little speculation here?

Since it is clear that....___

Nevermind, what's the scuttle on H. Reid's facial wounds? Stairmaster + stairs? Pull-ups+punches...? Hook a brother up with the details!
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Mar 31, 2015 - 10:01pm PT
You forgot about the multiple Fed agencies swat assault on Chicken Alaska Ron. Talk about comedy of corruption, that one took the cake.
thebravecowboy

climber
Lost Park
Mar 31, 2015 - 10:23pm PT
And yes, as person perhaps more familiar with the Cyanide Leach Process gold extraction reactions than most, I will happily assert that arming federal agents in Alaska to enforce regulation of such, as pertaining to water quality, is justified.

Are you familiar with what Galactic Enterprises did to the Alamosa and Rio Grande Rivers with irresponsible cyanide leach?

I am a gold-interested bastard, if I may say so.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Mar 31, 2015 - 10:27pm PT
^^^^^^

Yes, we should all do whatever we want and to hell with anyone else or our what our actions may cause.
thebravecowboy

climber
Lost Park
Mar 31, 2015 - 10:30pm PT
We definitely should not be investing federal dollars to enforce laws upon gold-mining operations that also happen to sell/do drugs. NOT!

Crappy example of overzealous enforcement here, fella. [certainly it sounds like the raid was poorly executed, but it's not like it was not a complex situation].

I give the feds a B- and the gold-fondlers a D.

What was the argument against water quality inspection? "It's Alaska, there's f*#k-tons of water"?
thebravecowboy

climber
Lost Park
Mar 31, 2015 - 10:36pm PT
EDIT: ^Yes the militarization of the po-po is terrifying. If we could somehow get you cut loose of Bundy and join with my friends in the Telluride Black Panthers section, we'd be able to make some change. :-)



Where did that information on the supposed bungled EPA raid, including quotations, come from?

Because I have stood in those shoes and know that mining activity attracts the law. Because I have stood in those shoes and recognize that people will be armed in bear country, and especially if touchy issues like the defense of small gold claims are involved.

Seems like they (the miners) had their panties in a britch over what shoulda been an easy hoop to jump through. It's not exactly like those types are easy to sneak up on. Surely they were aware of the arriving armed Feds prior to their arrival.





thebravecowboy

climber
Lost Park
Mar 31, 2015 - 10:44pm PT
now what of the Harry Reid mafia-beat up possibility??!!! Please hook it up! You assert it was a mafia smack-down and I must get the dirrt! I could get famous on TMZ!

EDIT: I am wondering about the specific source of the quoted material above about the Chicken, AK story.

And what of the friend-of-the hippy-friend's neighbor that had their dogs shot down in their home, their child in the midst, wife running to save child across the line of fire? What of the greater waste of tax dollars and human life in the war on pot?
thebravecowboy

climber
Lost Park
Mar 31, 2015 - 11:24pm PT
So it wasn't the Chinese, damn.


But I thought this might be the grassroots rebellion thread. 'parrently this is just the ___ thread.
thebravecowboy

climber
Lost Park
Mar 31, 2015 - 11:33pm PT
Re: Chicken.

the first 20 google results show a fairly clear distribution of the most strongly phrased articles (2) linked at two fairly obviously insane/corporate funded websites. just pointing out the CORPORATE funding of your side of the issue.

So if it was so bad to get the water sampled, or they were so threatened, why didn't they sue, or as Bundy and co supposedly did, "stand up like men" and lord over, by threat, the federal law-man? perhaps because it was a legal action?

And yes, we can all do a little googling - look up cyanide alamosa galactic
Steve's sister

Social climber
Las Vegas, NV
Apr 1, 2015 - 07:43am PT
Ron,serious question. What water improvements were destroyed and where were they? My husband has been Quail hunting in and around the Gold Butte area since 1972 and cannot remember ever seeing any destroyed water improvements.
I've been going since 1989 and have not seen any signs of this either. I am not saying this did not happen, it is a huge area, but we have covered a lot of ground over the decades. Just curious and can't think of a resource where I could find this information. Thanks in advance for any info you may share.

We love Gold Butte, the subtleties of the desert, the Native American antiquities, rock art, and the tenacity to survive out there. Amazing!

Lisa
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 1, 2015 - 09:25am PT
I don't recall any mention on this thread about good things the BLM is doing.

This Idaho Statesman article talks at length about new BLM fire fighting polices designed to save some of remaining sagebrush habitat & maybe keep sage grouse from being listed as an endangered species.

Well down the article, it also talks about ranchers working with the BLM in fire fighting efforts.

Imagine that------ the government & ranchers working together.

http://www.idahostatesman.com/2015/04/01/3728621/saving-prime-sage-grouse-habitat.html
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 1, 2015 - 09:49am PT
So has the FBI been after the Bundy supporters who pointed their sniper rifles at the BLM? A lot of them are easily recognizable from tapes available on youtube.

They are getting off easy. Pointing and holding the crosshairs over the chest of a federal officer is no small matter.

Maybe Obama decided to let them go back to marching and shooting at cans.
thebravecowboy

climber
Lost Park
Apr 1, 2015 - 08:40pm PT
What water improvements were destroyed and where were they?



I heard that there was some kind of proof of this, somewhere.

I guess knott.



cattle that they kilt

Ron, to be a complete dick, care to substantiate this?


^^Seems like this would be easy to document and substantiate in the public arena...and yet it has not happened.


Yes, f*#k the man and all that jazz, but I pay my taxes complete and I don't let my animals piss or sh#t in the water.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Apr 1, 2015 - 08:41pm PT
fitty-fitty

six O one - half dozen de Other

thebravecowboy

climber
Lost Park
Apr 1, 2015 - 08:44pm PT
^ getting those waaaaa-waaaas out, huh? looks like fun. did you folk hike or climb anything or just brrrrrraaaap-braaaaap it?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 1, 2015 - 08:48pm PT
Ron posted
Does it peve you off to see people standing for their rights?


Which rights are those, exactly? The right for white men to feign victimization at the hands of government they are defrauding? Please name exactly which right Bundy supporters are standing in defense of?
thebravecowboy

climber
Lost Park
Apr 1, 2015 - 09:00pm PT
boy that sure looks like a couple non-white trucks (atypical for the Fed) in the background, def not substantive proof. who took the photo?


Its apparent that not many have actually read up on this
^where might you suggest that we do so?

thanks for obliging.
**
I would think that any more substantive photos would be top-shelf for the sharing.**


And FYI, 'for you go callin' anyone limp-dicked leftists (too late), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Kahl

^
willful failure to file Federal income tax returns for the years 1973 and 1974
shot dead in '83. those f*#kks DO dilly-dally, but when they come down, they have the force of law on their side. and more funding and fundamental support than the Clark Co. Sheriff or whomever Bundy appeals to.


^yeah, it might take ten years, but the hammer falls 'ventually. Decisively on the side of the tax-collectors, it seems. Less'n anyone has proof.......[CRICKETS]
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 1, 2015 - 09:08pm PT
Oh Ron! Your imagination runs wild.

along with burying cows they over ran and killed..

Does anyone here, that has spent time in cattle country, have any imagination or memories of someone being so nuts that they would try to willingly run over a range cow (if you could catch one)? It happens at night on rural highways, and the vehicle is usually wrecked and the driver injured or killed.

Another Ron A fantasy, along with his thoughts that Nevada BLM range-grazing produces enought cattle to influence beef prices.

From a earlier Ron post:

It IS about the systematic wiping out of ranchers in this state which WILL drive the price of beef up more than it already is

Base104 pointed out the tiny percent of U.S. beef that Nevada produces, and got ripped on by Ron for his efforts.

I had shared these production figures with Ron last year, but he chooses to ignore them. (Or is he hiding his own Easter eggs this year?)


0.59% of the U.S. calf crop comes out of Nevada. I suspect 80-90% of that comes off privately owned irrigated farmlands in the more blessed parts of Nevada. Whatever happens to BLM grazing rights in Nevada will affect the cost of your grocery store beef by less than 1/2 cent per pound.

thebravecowboy

climber
Lost Park
Apr 1, 2015 - 09:09pm PT
^ who really cares about the price of beef? it's all subsidized (WELFARE) beeves anywho.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 1, 2015 - 09:22pm PT
Ron? I just quote you as you post your most interesting rantings. Enjoy your Easter egg hunt.

Here's that Las Vegas Review Journal photo of one of Bundy's "improved" water holes for you.

I do enjoy that the true photo bothers you. Your old pal "The Chief" liked to post up a photo of happy herfords belly deep in lush grass on this thread, and imply it was taken on Bundy's Ranch.

Too bad they are gone, along with the rest of his thoughts.

This Las Vegas Review Journal photo pissed him off too.


Newspaper link, click photo for slideshow. http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/bundy-blm/feds-start-rounding-bundy-s-cattle-northeastern-clark-county


ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 1, 2015 - 09:23pm PT
Just turn the whole state over to the prophet Bundy and we shall reap the bounty! Waters teaming with fishes, fat calves, gold, and chest deep grass to feed our livestock. Can't wait!
thebravecowboy

climber
Lost Park
Apr 1, 2015 - 09:25pm PT
boy that sure looks like a couple non-white trucks (atypical for the Fed) in the background, def not substantive proof. who took the photo?



boy for hard-luck folk, they sure don't seem too into hard proof, etc.
thebravecowboy

climber
Lost Park
Apr 1, 2015 - 09:30pm PT
^any substantive evidence? Moar photos of smashed cows! Preferably with BLM tractors atop 'em.............[crickets]



^Cpt. Anderson, that photo represents the fallacy of range 'improvements.' looks like cowsh#t, mud-churned undrinkable dribbles. thanks a bunch Bundy! Some real improvements (NOT!)

I'd pay someone to plow that sh#t over and start the spring anew.....apparently there is as yet no proof of such happening. C'mon BLM tractor-men!

talk is talk, this is the digital age, where is the proof of Cray-cray BLM operations? Yes, I saw dead cow and some trucks up-thread. This no equal proof.





and yes I have seen kitties play that scorpion-hockey, but, no, no BLM cow-hockey. 'sides talk.
WBraun

climber
Apr 1, 2015 - 09:43pm PT
Where's your proof big brave cowboy?

Yeah right, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

You been there?

Yep, just as I thought

None of ya ........

thebravecowboy

climber
Lost Park
Apr 1, 2015 - 09:49pm PT
Actually, WBraun, I have. You?


[revision: apparently since slandering, I am the little, anti-brave cowboy. Still, I am me, either way. ]




And yep, that looks like a pretty definite continued lack of proof. Did the BLM smash that improvement? .......

(Ron, I'm pretty good at fishin' myself these days.)


My proof is that that dude han't paid his taxes. Which support stuff like YOSAR and general federal workers, y'know. (which I am in favor of supporting).
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 1, 2015 - 09:53pm PT
Ron, Ron, Ron:

Re:
You've never been to the Gold butte/ Bunkerville area, ill bet.

I've spent some time around there, mostly on the Utah side, but I drove the really shitty railroad road, that eventually was a tie track one foot from the rails from Caliente south to Moapa by Glendale. That was a two day adventure. On one of many trips down I15 from SLC to Las Vegas, I was bored enough to take the side road from Mesquite through Bunkerville along the Virgin River and back north to I15.

Lush irrigated farmland is close to the Virgin River, which is all private land, Those desert mountains are unexplored by me, but they sure look like schisty grazing. One cow per thousand acres, if you are lucky. No problem to fly them on Google Earth and see what I mean.

Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 1, 2015 - 09:54pm PT
What many here don't appreciate is: U.S. homestead laws allowed folks to settle on, improve, and eventually own any decent public farm land in the western U.S. up through the 1950's. Heidi's parents "homesteaded" on BLM land west of Boise in 1951.

The lands that the BLM took over in the early 1900's were the most worthless schist lands that were good for nothing and no-one had ever found it worthwhile to settle on them for ranching, farming, or mining.

Modern economics and weird right-wing politics now are making them worth fighting over.
thebravecowboy

climber
Lost Park
Apr 1, 2015 - 09:54pm PT
THOSE are Bundy Cattle, ran until they dropped, and were shot by BLM and buried by BLM. There were more that that to perish during the chopper chasing. Calves included.

^ straight outta L. L'amour. And yet I might appreciate the dusty paperback more for its stated (open) fictional value.
thebravecowboy

climber
Lost Park
Apr 1, 2015 - 09:56pm PT
BC,,,Go fish for yourself. I lean toward the conservative side, which means I think one should do his own work. I know that may seem odd to some.


Yep, communalism had nothin' to do with the settling of the west. ;-) like, you know, rescues off el cap, or FS rangers managing the publically held resources.

Or neighbors sharing a cup of flour or an egg. (which I would gladly do with you contrarians, as I believe you would with me).
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 1, 2015 - 10:07pm PT
Ron! Re your post:
one for Fritz-- one of Bundys water improvements .

OK. I am actually going to believe that is a photo of the tax-cheat, welfare rancher, rabble rouser, brownshirt at a concrete pond (that was likely paid for by the BLM and U.S. taxpayers who pay for most "range improvements".

You got a link, or you got nothing?

Why the hell should I trust any photo you post without a valid link?
thebravecowboy

climber
Lost Park
Apr 1, 2015 - 10:11pm PT
Ron, I suspect that I encountered a First-Amendment zone a bit before Bundy and co (2004 was my first encounter with riot police telling me that free-speech did not exist where I was standing. pretty funny, and terrifying, in America.)

That sh#t, that banning of free-speech (and associated action) in certain hot-zones, is certainly troubling.

I feel that there is some serious common-ground to face the man on here, if we can mend the divides. Seriously, f*#k that imposition of the man against my civil constitutional rights. This is somewhere I might actually stand by Bundy on (and elbow him in the ribs for not pulling his share.)
thebravecowboy

climber
Lost Park
Apr 1, 2015 - 10:12pm PT
Why the hell should I trust any photo you post without a valid link?

sources, schmourzes.

johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Apr 1, 2015 - 10:19pm PT
His pics are conservative, as in they don't show much.

Being around cattle all my life I think fritz is being facetious
as to 1000 acre per cow. Looks to me from that pic that would be at least 25 acres per cow/calf pair for a couple weeks, and then you'd have to leave it stand for a couple or three years before it would come back to what little is there now.

thebravecowboy

climber
Lost Park
Apr 1, 2015 - 10:19pm PT
Sorry for asking for discourse. I think there is common ground here, even politically. I will shut up and join the "limp-wristed d#@&%e-pack," cease to acknowledge any common values 'twixt you and me.

Just kidding. Next time I drive down in elevation through that big wide free space you have in NV, I will try to buy you a beer. Honest. You know the place better'n me, though we're apparently at odds here.


and Johnbizzle:
so that works out to 1000acre/3 year/cow = 333 acre/cow. which is not a small amount of land, even ignoring water and what actually grows out there. [water is a pretty big thing to ignore]

where were you around cattle? in the west?

And also, this is a problem with the management system but not your side or mine: how does BLM account for annual irregularity of precip/lushness of range? Probably not well enough, just guessing.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 1, 2015 - 10:22pm PT
Ron? Re your post:

Heres an idea Fritzy GO FIND IT yur own dam seff eh?


YOu ST libs are good at slamming someone then wanting more from them .. Its a tired routine. Don't trust me so DUITYERSELF....


Happy Easter! Hope you find some of the eggs you hid (if you remember to get eggs & hide them.)

Watch out for the bunny.

thebravecowboy

climber
Lost Park
Apr 1, 2015 - 10:24pm PT
^ aww Fritz, that makes me laugh, but damn. I never seen you sink to my level of assault.

[Are you Banksy?]

TBC
thebravecowboy

climber
Lost Park
Apr 1, 2015 - 10:29pm PT
One time (ok more than once), I drank cold clear tadpole and algae-healthy water from a "range-improvement stock tank". It made my day (possibly my life).

Though, weren't cattle about, no need for improvement to keep water cleaner or better flowing.





Edit: Cpt. Fritz, I do believe that it is Bundizzle there in the photo, with concrete built from free public water and cement trucked in over the desert. All of it holding back clean water piped from dry desert. Cool! Did the BLM destroy this'n? Whereabout?
WBraun

climber
Apr 1, 2015 - 10:32pm PT
Next time I drive down in elevation through that big wide free space you have in NV, I will try to buy you a beer.

All right !!!

You the man brave cowboy!

Thanks for being cool ....
thebravecowboy

climber
Lost Park
Apr 1, 2015 - 10:39pm PT
no need for friction 'tween me and the locals, brahj


;-)

Truly, I know little directly here. I do love the place though, and see both the need to manage the public good against the individual producer and the rational self-interest driving the people that scratch a living outta the place.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Apr 1, 2015 - 10:42pm PT
BC, 25 acres per cow/calf pair. I didn't say at 1000 acre. Doesn't matter how many acres, still guessing 25 acre per pair.
thebravecowboy

climber
Lost Park
Apr 1, 2015 - 10:42pm PT
^ for a couple weeks/3 years, right?

25 acre/2 wk for three years works out to 1950 acres per cow-calf pair (does this account for water or increasing calf size?). what is the re-grow time/25-acres?

I've walked these lands and see very little edible goods, even springtime. What do they eat? What do the native competitors eat? Cow-sh#t?


So yes this is a ton of land. What were we arguing about? Oh yeah, I think water, and the location and treatment of such vital public goods....
thebravecowboy

climber
Lost Park
Apr 1, 2015 - 10:45pm PT
yeah those desert bears, Ron. I've been pleasantly surprised to find raspberries and good shaded springs at ~4500', with much fresh bear-sign in the canyon bottoms of my home. those desert bears will leave the lush-canyons too and cross out over the broad dry, berry-less shale slopes. Hope nobody has a high-power rifle and too much beer on board...sigh.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Apr 1, 2015 - 11:28pm PT
Im in South Dakota just a bit east of New Castle WY.

Of course the pairs would have to be run off to fresher pastures after a couple weeks and might take 3 years to come back, depending on how much was eaton off and weather. So yes, it would take a lot of land to raise a herd there. 25 acre per pair per 3 years was just for that pictured, other lands withstanding. How much land he needs would also depend on how much feed he's given them. I can see why he's running cattle on public land, I'd bet his land ain't enough. Water would be hard one.
thebravecowboy

climber
Lost Park
Apr 1, 2015 - 11:40pm PT
so what do you make of the lack of conclusive public proof of BLM insanity, as alleged, Johnb?
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Apr 2, 2015 - 12:32am PT
Let me repeat this, that without the ranches of Nevada our wildlife wouldn't be where it is today in this state. They service all the wildlife as well as those cows and have for a hundred years and more. I fish in ponds and small dams constructed by these ranches for free, and some of them did the original stocking. Not a bad deal eh

Just to throw in my $0.02 worth and, I've been around stock most of my life so I picked up a few things from my dad who raised us kids in the sh#t and muck...
I don't think anyone is arguing with the statement above there Ron, rather from what I've read the beef (wink wink) is with Mr. Bundy and his 'methods' along with those gun toting knuckleheads.

Carry on
hashbro

Trad climber
Mental Physics........
Apr 3, 2015 - 09:21pm PT

Bundy seems to 'have gotten away with' it

Phil Taylor, E&E reporter
Greenwire: Friday, April 3, 2015



Life has returned to normal at the Bureau of Land Management's Gold Butte area in southern Nevada.

Visitors are car camping, searching for prehistoric rock art and admiring the Mojave Desert's multi-hued landscapes -- and Cliven Bundy continues to graze his cows.

Sunday will mark one year since the BLM and National Park Service began wrangling Bundy's bovines from Gold Butte's expanse of Joshua trees and creosote bushes, where the animals had been grazing illegally for more than two decades.

more below:

http://www.eenews.net/stories/1060016250

http://www.hcn.org/articles/cliven-bundy-rancher-nevada-scofflaw?utm_source=wcn1&utm_medium=email
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 4, 2015 - 08:06am PT
Hashbro: Thanks for the link to that story. It is very interesting reading.

Back up-thread I asserted that the government land that Bundy's cows are abusing would likely graze 1 cow per thousand acres. (That's really, really schisty grazing land.)

Per Hashbro's linked article, I admit I was rong:
http://www.eenews.net/stories/1060016250

BLM a year ago estimated there were 908 illegal cattle spread across 1,200 square miles, including in Gold Butte and NPS's adjacent Lake Mead National Recreation Area.

which works out to one cow for every 846 acres.


There is also another link in the above article to a story in the LA Times about Bundy's brownshirts descending on Carson City to promote legislation to steal U.S. Government land in Nevada. It is also interesting reading.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-cliven-bundy-rally-20150401-story.html

The above article explains the origin of this counter-protest sign too.
couchmaster

climber
Apr 4, 2015 - 08:33am PT
Damn? You guys are still going on about this? Here's an idea for us. Instead of retyping all of our early assertions where we all are right (at least where each and every poster all think they are right) and getting all butt hurt at the responses we illicit: lets just go back in time on the thread and just copy/paste our earlier posts. See how long we can make a near meaningless thread stay on top. No need to continually retype the same things over and over, just copy/paste.

I have faith Ron can hang in there, and maybe a*swipes like Crankster who seems to have unlimited time and never has climbed so he's stuck in his moms basement it appears, but some of you will have to really bear down and stick this out for the long haul.

Go back and copy your old posts, then paste to bump - I'm right and you're wrong will be the theme. Or keep spelling it your instead of the old traditionally correct version: you're.

copy/paste -I'm right and your wrong.
copy/paste - No your wrong and I'm right.
copy/paste -I'm right and your wrong.
copy/paste -No your wrong and I'm right.
copy/paste -I'm right and your Ron.
copy/paste -your not ron your a moRON

etc etc. ad infinity and beyond
ground_up

Trad climber
mt. hood /baja
Apr 4, 2015 - 09:30am PT
What Couch said ^^^^^^^^^^
thebravecowboy

climber
Lost Park
Apr 4, 2015 - 09:33am PT
or we could all chip in for Crankster and Werner to meet up and share tea.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 4, 2015 - 05:41pm PT
What if Werner and the Crankster are really the same guy? :)
hashbro

Trad climber
Mental Physics........
Apr 4, 2015 - 09:03pm PT

Will public-lands ranchers pay more for grazing?
An Obama administration proposal would more than double fees.

(or more accurately, do they have the balls to stand up to as#@&%e, welfare-ranching rednecks with guns?)

see more below:

http://www.hcn.org/articles/obama-s-trying-to-hike-grazing-fees
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 5, 2015 - 09:10am PT
I am not in favor of Clive but I find our own federal govt more dangerous and appalling than any rancher. I'd bet a lot of people find themselves fighting for this guy not because of his beliefs but merely since he faces a common enemy.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 5, 2015 - 10:25am PT
I don't claim to know how much range improvement the BLM does, but when I worked summers for the Forest Service in the late 60's, early 70's, we made a lot of range improvements with Government money. Miles of drift fences, pipelines from springs to stock tanks, & installation of stock tanks were all projects I worked on. Our National Forest also did controled burns of sagebrush to improve livestock grazing & control of invasive weeds spread by livestock. I will concede our work may have been funded by grazing fees, but we never had any help from ranchers.

It is common knowledge in South Idaho that the BLM has built most of the drift fences and thousands of small dams for waterholes in their part of the range land. This was mostly done in 1950's & 60's when the BLM was somewhat better funded.

Here's what a BLM brochure says on the subject today:

http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/nv/grazing.Par.17722.File.dat/range_improvement_investment_fact_sheet.pdf

Who is responsible for installing permanent structural range improvements on public lands? On public lands managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), permittees or lessees (henceforth, “operators”) may be required to install range improvements to meet the terms and conditions of their permits or leases. Often the BLM, operators, and other interested parties work together and jointly contribute to construction.

How are range improvements funded? The law provides that each year, either half of the grazing fees paid by operators or $10 million (after it is appropriated through the Federal budget process), whichever is greater, will be provided to BLM to fund range improvements.

The BLM also encourages contributions from operators and other parties who are interested in facilitating improved grazing management or enhancing other multiple uses. Often, lenders provide the funds that operators contribute for improvements, and the ability to obtain funds from a lender is a key factor in whether an operator can contribute to or fund an improvement.

How much does the BLM spend managing rangeland vs what it collects in grazing fees?
http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/grazing.html

In Fiscal Year 2014, the BLM spent $79.2 million on its rangeland management program and approximately $10 million on its Range Improvement Program, for a grand total of $89.2 million. Of that figure, the agency spent $32.8 million on grazing permit administration. The other $56.4 million covered such activities as weed management, rangeland monitoring (not related to grazing administration), planning, water development, vegetation restoration, and habitat improvement. In 2014, the BLM collected $12,117,000 in grazing fees (see section on grazing fee below). The receipts from these annual fees, in accordance with legislative requirements, are shared with state and local governments.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 5, 2015 - 12:44pm PT
I'd bet a lot of people find themselves fighting for this guy not because of his beliefs but merely since he faces a common enemy.

A cowardly reaction, to be sure.

DMT

People going muzzle to muzzle with the current regime are hardly "cowards". Foolish perhaps, very foolish, but hardly cowards as they know they'd likely be slaughtered if real shooting did break out.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Apr 5, 2015 - 06:09pm PT
Fuking wild horse lovers should pay to maintain them.
They should be extinct in the wild!
Both they and the burros don't belong.

Ar least most ranchers pay to fuk up the rangeland.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Apr 6, 2015 - 06:58am PT
People going muzzle to muzzle with the current regime are hardly "cowards". Foolish perhaps, very foolish, but hardly cowards as they know they'd likely be slaughtered if real shooting did break out.

True. That's why they hid behind the womenfolk.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Apr 6, 2015 - 07:56am PT
True. That's why they hid behind the womenfolk.

true...

but they are such good solid upstanding all American men, so worthy of an idiot's defense.

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 6, 2015 - 08:37am PT
Every person that traveled there went for their own reasons to fight against a perceived common enemy. I doubt they went to simply support some rancher and his desert cows. However misguided they were, there were a lot of them from all over the country, some with firearms and some without.

As far as "hiding behind women", that would be the problem with uncoordinated mobs which is what you had there, on both sides from the looks of it. If shooting had started there would have been a bloodbath of unprecendented proportions.
WBraun

climber
Apr 6, 2015 - 09:46am PT
The real cowards are the supertopo anonymous loons who need to hide.

There was no hiding behind women and is only made up bullsh!t by more cowards .....
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Apr 6, 2015 - 10:27am PT
There was no hiding behind women and is only made up bullsh!t by more cowards .....

Former Arizona Sheriff Richard Mack revealed on Monday that he and other organizers who traveled to Clark County, Nev., to support Cliven Bundy during his land dispute with the feds planned to put women on the front lines in case the “rogue federal officers” started shooting.

Mack made the chilling revelation on Fox News’ “The Real Story” Monday, two days after the tense standoff between Bundy and the federal government came to a peaceful end.

“We were actually strategizing to put all the women up at the front,” he said. “If they are going to start shooting, it’s going to be women that are going to be televised all across the world getting shot by these rogue federal officers.”

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/04/14/former-arizona-sheriff-reveals-chilling-strategy-to-put-women-up-at-the-front-during-bundy-ranch-standoff/
WBraun

climber
Apr 6, 2015 - 10:42am PT
“We were actually strategizing to put all the women up at the front,” he said.

Yes that was "a" plan he said.

There still was no hiding.

The only hiding is the anonymous supertopo coward .......

WBraun

climber
Apr 6, 2015 - 10:44am PT
^^^^^^

The real coward who needs to hide immediately shows up to prove his continual cowardice ....
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 7, 2015 - 07:21pm PT
Interesting that this thread, where Ron Anderson supports & admits to all sorts of illegal behavior, and then makes a death threat on crankster, isn't "frozen".
crankster

Trad climber
Apr 7, 2015 - 08:28pm PT
Threats of violence are Ron's forte. He'll be behind bars some day and still posting up.
But, yes, he should be banned. He's a menace.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 9, 2015 - 07:25pm PT
White trash scum like Bundy make me ecstatic about the seismic demographic shift that is beginning to reshape America.
crankster

Trad climber
Apr 9, 2015 - 07:31pm PT
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Apr 9, 2015 - 07:50pm PT
Just how many casinos does Bundy own?

Viva La Vegas.

"No mafioso ever called me n-lovin freeloader".
-Clivone Bundeskrieg

Gimme an A
Gimme K
Gimme 47 of 'em





couchmaster

climber
Apr 9, 2015 - 08:02pm PT


You guys REALLY REALLY need to let this non-issue just go.

really.

Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 9, 2015 - 08:13pm PT
Ron Anderson has a big overdose of the "Weapons Effect." https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/get-psyched/201301/the-weapons-effect

“Guns not only permit violence, they can stimulate it as well. The finger pulls the trigger, but the trigger may also be pulling the finger.”

—Leonard Berkowitz, Emeritus Professor of Psychology, University of Wisconsin

In 1967, Leonard Berkowitz and Anthony LePage conducted a fascinating study.[1] First, participants were angered by a person pretending to be another participant (called a confederate). Next, participants were seated at a table that had a shotgun and a revolver on it—or, in the control condition, badminton racquets and shuttlecocks. The items on the table were described as part of another experiment that the researcher had supposedly forgotten to put away. The participant was supposed to decide what level of electric shock to deliver to the confederate who had angered them, and the electric shocks were used to measure aggression. The experimenter told participants to ignore the items on the table, but apparently they could not. Participants who saw the guns were more aggressive than were participants who saw the sports items. This effect was dubbed the “weapons effect.”

The weapons effect occurs outside of the lab too. In one field experiment,[2] a confederate driving a pickup truck purposely remained stalled at a traffic light for 12 seconds to see whether the motorists trapped behind him would honk their horns (the measure of aggression). The truck contained either a .303-calibre military rifle in a gun rack mounted to the rear window, or no rifle. The results showed that motorists were more likely to honk their horns if the confederate was driving a truck with a gun visible in the rear window than if the confederate was driving the same truck but with no gun. What is amazing about this study is that you would have to be pretty stupid to honk your horn at a driver with a military rifle in his truck—if you were thinking, that is! But people were not thinking—they just naturally honked their horns after seeing the gun. The mere presence of a weapon automatically triggered aggression.


Research also shows that drivers with guns in their cars more likely to drive aggressively.[3] A nationally representative sample of over 2,000 American drivers found that those who had a gun in the car were significantly more likely to make obscene gestures at other motorists (23% vs. 16%), aggressively follow another vehicle too closely (14% vs. 8%), or both (6.3% vs. 2.8%), even after controlling for many other factors related to aggressive driving (e.g., gender, age, urbanization, census region, driving frequency).

Human beings can identify potentially dangerous, threatening stimuli such as spiders and snakes very quickly. This makes sense from an evolutionary perspective because some spiders and snakes are poisonous, and our ancient ancestors who could identify them quickly were more likely to avoid them and live to pass on their genes. Recent research shows that people can identify guns as quickly as they can identify spiders and snakes.[4],[5],[6] These findings are very interesting because guns are modern threats and cannot be explained using evolutionary principles. Yet guns are a far more dangerous to people today than spiders or snakes. Poisonous spiders (e.g., Black Widows, Brown Recluses) kill about 6 Americans each year.[7] Poisonous snakes (e.g., rattlesnakes) kill about 5 Americans each year.[8] In comparison, guns kill about 31,000 Americans each year.[9]

Several studies have replicated the weapons effect. A review of 56 published studies confirmed that the mere sight of weapons increases aggression in both angry and nonangry individuals.[10] Perhaps the weapons effect occurs because weapons are closely linked to aggression in our brains.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Apr 9, 2015 - 08:21pm PT
But Fritz, you just don't understand. How could the half of the American population that doesn't carry guns have survived if they didn't carry gu...

No. Wait. That's... Um...
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 9, 2015 - 08:25pm PT
I associate prayer flags with Berkeley earth mothers and the ensuing tongue lashing after getting busted for calling women chicks...Guns and snakes i laugh at...Stupid Berkeley earth mothers...
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 9, 2015 - 08:34pm PT
To me prayer flags have no more and no less significance than a crucifix or the angel moroni atop a mormon temple.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Apr 9, 2015 - 08:41pm PT
Berkeley you say. Would Cliven have killed a cop for Huey?

Just how many cows did the Black Panthers actually own?

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 9, 2015 - 08:47pm PT
Cliven has stepped on many a pie plate and knows the smell...
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Apr 9, 2015 - 08:52pm PT
But Fritz, you just don't understand. How could the half of the American population that doesn't carry guns have survived if they didn't carry gu...

No. Wait. That's... Um...

And how could the Poles overthrow the Soviets if they didn't carry guns?
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 9, 2015 - 09:26pm PT
Re people that like Bundy and say things like this:

you do not know him. If you did, you wouldn't say such things.

That schist has been spewed about every popular villian for thousands of years.

Kublai Khan to Hitler to Castro to Bundy, there are always the deluded supporters, who admire their anti-establishment revolutionary hero.




HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 10, 2015 - 07:20am PT
Ron posted
He ISNT anti establishment. Hes for LESS FED govt interference and back door BS. And our Legislature AGREED with him.

Yeah, Bundy has very well thought out viewpoints on a myriad of subjects that any legislature should be proud to build the intellectual backbone of their policies around.

Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Apr 10, 2015 - 10:40pm PT
GOod grief what you DONT KNOW about Nevada could fill Volumes Dingus

I'm seriously tempted to reply: "And what YOU don't know about the world outside Nevada could fill a thousand times as many volumes."

But that could be considered an inappropriate personal comment, and might get this thread frozen.

So I won't say it.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 11, 2015 - 05:16am PT
If it wasn't for Nevada , the Feds wouldn't have a place to dump nuclear waste..
Flip Flop

climber
salad bowl, california
Apr 11, 2015 - 07:04am PT
Bundy and Ron are these government welfare types. Raised on the government teat and yelling like spoiled rotten babies.

Yep baby ( government job, hunting on government land, the fed is the only thing that allows white-tards to keep killing Indians for their stupid cows and so they can fulfill their pussy killer fantasies.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 11, 2015 - 07:19am PT
Trying to get the thread frozen, FlipFlop?"
Flip Flop

climber
salad bowl, california
Apr 11, 2015 - 07:22am PT
I won't cry. Testing the waters. It's just like playing poker with the same idiot every week. The dumbness ruins the game for everyone. If you don't see the sucker at the table then it's probably you (Ron).
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Apr 11, 2015 - 08:26am PT
Here's an interesting one in the line of "civil" disobediance.

Walmart is not the guilty party on this case.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Apr 14, 2015 - 11:30am PT
Another Bundy Freedom D#@&%er (BFD) arrested

http://www.mcall.com/news/breaking/mc-cliven-bundy-will-michael-pa-admits-threatening-ranger-20150413-story.html
By Peter Hall
Of The Morning Call

PHILADELPHIA — Will Michael had never met Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy or the federal ranger who manhandled Bundy's sister during an armed standoff over cattle grazing rights.

But when Michael, who lives in Emmaus, saw a YouTube video of Chief Ranger Mike Roop physically moving Margaret Houston out of the path of U.S. Bureau of Land Management vehicles, he was so offended that he reached out personally to send Roop a message, Michael's attorney said.

The profanity-laden death threat that Michael left on Roop's office voicemail a year ago will now echo in the 24-year-old's future as a federal felony arrest record.

"We're going to find you: We're going to kill you, you f------ BLM thug," Michael said, according to a court document that also says Michael referred to Roop using a homophobic slur.

Michael pleaded guilty Monday in Philadelphia before U.S. District Judge Mitchell S. Goldberg to threatening a federal law enforcement officer and interstate communication of threats. The charges carry a maximum prison sentence of 15 years, but under a plea agreement, federal prosecutors will not oppose Michael's request for a sentence of probation.

edit: when did doosh become a bad word? Getting harder to insult d-bags
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 14, 2015 - 11:55am PT
are we surprised that there was a death threat?
That there was a prosecution?
That a Bluntyite was so stoopid?
That the Feds don't forget when a tin horn rancher defies Federal court judgements?

Blunty's time will come. There will be a knock at his door and a half dozen well armed uniforms with a warrant.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Apr 14, 2015 - 12:09pm PT
d'ouche - I think you have to use the actual French spelling.
thebravecowboy

climber
the Midcontinent Rift
Apr 14, 2015 - 03:31pm PT
RABBLE-RABBLE-RABBLE
Steve's sister

Social climber
Las Vegas, NV
Apr 14, 2015 - 03:59pm PT
Thanks for the response, Ron. We use to haul as s in after dark on Friday nights, so that explains my missing them. Guess we need to go in during daylight and check it out. Best regards, Lisa
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 14, 2015 - 05:40pm PT
she'll send that cheat Bundy off to the pen!

Yes, with the support of her biggest backer...Monsanto! Genetically Modified Turtle soup on the White House menu ;-). She's just another arch-criminal running in a soon-to-be rigged election

Get out and vote!

Vote for your favorite puppet skin!

Eventually this will end very badly once the sheeple figure out there is no "choice". If they ever do. I have my doubts.

zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Apr 14, 2015 - 08:26pm PT
Putin pfffft Pito

Orale


[Click to View YouTube Video]
thebravecowboy

climber
the Midcontinent Rift
Apr 14, 2015 - 11:18pm PT

why don't our presidents campaign shirtless?

Gary

Social climber
A Buick 6
Apr 15, 2015 - 08:21pm PT
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-bundy-supporter-plea-20150415-story.html

An out-of-state supporter of Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy has pleaded guilty in a federal court in Pennsylvania to making threats against a Bureau of Land Management enforcement official during Bundy’s 2014 standoff against federal officials over land grazing rights.

Some Bundy supporters, as well as Bundy himself, wonder whether this is the first in a series of legal moves the federal government might take against the recalcitrant rancher, whose so-called citizen militia challenged BLM officials in an armed face-off last April.

Will Michael, 24, pleaded guilty this week to threatening a federal law enforcement official as well as making interstate communication threats.
10b4me

Social climber
Jun 29, 2015 - 07:49am PT
http://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/246103-cliven-bundy-will-be-held-accountable-interior-secretary-says
10b4me

Social climber
Aug 12, 2015 - 06:17pm PT
http://www.hcn.org/articles/dispatch-from-oath-keepers-security-op-in-montana
dirtbag

climber
Aug 12, 2015 - 06:29pm PT
Idiot keepers.
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Aug 12, 2015 - 09:57pm PT
These idiots should be cut from Social Security!
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Aug 12, 2015 - 11:05pm PT
... or cut their GI pensions!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 12, 2015 - 11:16pm PT
Doesn't the name "WHITE HOPE MINE" tell you everything you need to know???
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Aug 13, 2015 - 06:06am PT
Keep bumping this thread and we'll see how much self control Ron really has.

Those Oath Keepers are a bunch of anti American cowards, Ron. ;)
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Aug 13, 2015 - 07:44am PT
Timeid TopRope wrote:
Pathetic whitey with their pathetic false sense of manufactured outrage.

More than enough manufactured outrage amongst everybody in this day and age.

Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Aug 13, 2015 - 08:00am PT
Here's a report on some Bundy want-to-bes in Montana.

HELENA, Mont. — Federal prosecutors asked a judge on Tuesday to prevent two miners and their armed supporters from blocking access to public land and threatening government officials over a dispute with the U.S. Forest Service in western Montana.

The lawsuit filed in U.S. District Court in Helena also seeks a declaration that miners George Kornec and Phil Nappo illegally opened a road, cut down trees, built a garage and denied the public the right to access the White Hope mine near Lincoln.

Prosecutors and the Forest Service want U.S. District Judge Charles Lovell to declare the miners are acting illegally because they don't have surface land rights to their mining claims. Prosecutors also want an order requiring the miners to pay to fix the damage to public land and for the miners and their armed supporters to stop interfering with public access.

The road leading to the mining claim belongs to the Forest Service and is open to the public for non-motorized use, the lawsuit said. Members of the public may not interfere with mining operations, but they may access the land and the road, it said.

"Currently the gate is closed with no trespassing signs posted and the public and Forest Service are being refused entry by armed persons," the lawsuit said.

The legal action has the potential to escalate what has been a peaceful, if uneasy, standoff between government officials and more than 20 armed members of constitutionalist groups who showed up in Lincoln, Montana, last week. The members of the Oath Keepers, 3% of Idaho and the Pacific Patriot Network said the miners had requested their presence as a buffer against the Forest Service.

Read more here: http://www.idahostatesman.com/2015/08/11/3934174/us-government-seeks-ruling-against.html?sp=/99/101/531/#storylink=cpy
dirtbag

climber
Aug 13, 2015 - 08:37am PT
Thugs.
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Aug 13, 2015 - 08:40am PT
This is what happens when the illiterate try to read the Constitution and Federal Code...

... the illustrated versions seems to leave out the details.
jonnyrig

climber
Aug 13, 2015 - 08:40am PT
So... a group that demands transparency and conformity to constitutional rights evidently operates in secrecy and prohibits public access to public lands. Way to defend the constitution dudes.
dirtbag

climber
Aug 13, 2015 - 08:48am PT
Todd nails it. These guys know nothing about the constitution or how our laws operate.

They claim to be law enforcement: I wonder how many of them have records or a demeanor like the cop in the"cops or thug?" thread?

No, they're just another angry mob, ignorantly operating under the cloak of law and order, but doing everything in their power to undermine it.

It's all fun and games until shots start flying.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Aug 13, 2015 - 11:24am PT
This is an old American tradition in the South and the West going back to the 1600's. They used to be called Regulators and normally existed where the law didn't. Whatever else, it's an interesting phenomenon. Maybe if our government wasn't so busy trying to regulate the Middle East and many other places in the world, they'd have time and budget to control their own U.S. government land within the U.S. ?
10b4me

Social climber
Aug 13, 2015 - 12:27pm PT
Maybe if our government wasn't so busy trying to regulate the Middle East and many other places in the world, they'd have time and budget to control their own U.S. government land within the U.S.

agreed, but since the land belongs to all Americans, and not those that think it's theirs, it's time the gubmint quits pussyfootin' around.
jonnyrig

climber
Aug 13, 2015 - 04:06pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
cuvvy

Sport climber
arkansas
Aug 17, 2015 - 01:55pm PT
The are the kinds of things that occur when uneducated children turn into uneducated adults.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Aug 17, 2015 - 03:27pm PT
So what's the latest with old Jivin' Bundy?
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 17, 2015 - 06:58pm PT
in the 20 years Bundy hasn’t been paying his fees, why hasn’t he been taken to court?

“Is it possible that this guy (Cliven Bundy) has prescriptive rights?” The response from top officials at the BLM, “We are worried that he might and he might use that defense.”

In 1998 a federal judge issued a permanent injunction against Bundy, ordering him to remove his cattle from the federal lands. He lost an appeal to the San Francisco 9th Circuit Court of Appeals. Yet, the “trespass cattle” remained on the BLM land. In fact, it took until August of 2013 for a court order to be issued saying Bundy had 45 days to remove his cattle from federal land. 15 years went by from the time of the last court case over the cattle until the BLM attempted to remove the livestock.



A federal judge on Monday sentenced Clemente Leon of Chula Vista to four months in federal prison and five months in a halfway house.

Leon pleaded guilty in May to selling jerseys bearing counterfeit trademarks over the Internet. Authorities say he imported the fakes from China and attached counterfeit World Cup team patches and stencils with player's names in his garage.




Thailand's defence minister has said those who planted a bomb at a Bangkok shrine deliberately targeted foreigners to harm tourism and the economy.
Gary

Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
Aug 17, 2015 - 07:31pm PT
There are no prescriptive rights, no adverse possession against the government.
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 17, 2015 - 08:07pm PT
Somebody oughta tell Cleevon. However, there is a valid question here. Why in the fork has this been dragging out for so many years?
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Feb 29, 2016 - 08:35am PT
With Cliven Bundy & Sons effectively corralled, the BLM is working on the issue of removing his feral cows.

http://www.eenews.net/stories/1060033077

The Bundy herd, last estimated at 1,000, has trampled sensitive soils, devoured native saplings and bedded down against Native American artifacts. One of Bundy's bulls attacked a Nevada wildlife official, while others have run roughshod over a community garden and a golf course, BLM said.

BLM and its allies -- following court orders -- want Bundy's cows gone from the public lands surrounding his Bunkerville, Nev., ranch, and particularly Gold Butte, a 350,000-acre mesa of Joshua trees, cacti and creosote bushes below the snow-dusted Virgin Peak.

But removing Bundy's ornery, battle-tested herd -- estimated by one Nevada official to be worth up to $800,000 -- will be expensive, logistically difficult and potentially dangerous.

"It's like hunting cape buffalo," said Ken Mayer, the former director of Nevada's Department of Wildlife. "They're nasty, they're smart, and they won't hesitate to charge."
WBraun

climber
Feb 29, 2016 - 08:38am PT
One of Bundy's bulls attacked a Nevada wildlife official

LOL like that is Bundy's fault.

Stupid violent Americans will get attacked by any Bull because they kill all cows and eat em .....
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Feb 29, 2016 - 09:16am PT
"It's like hunting cape buffalo," said Ken Mayer, the former director of Nevada's Department of Wildlife. "They're nasty, they're smart, and they won't hesitate to charge."

lol
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 29, 2016 - 09:51am PT
Funny how within 30 minutes of Levoy F being shot, there was full video of the incident distributed to media outlets.

And its been over 4 months since Jack Yantis was shot by ID deputies and we still can't even get a sense for when the investigation will conclude.

So, those bulls can be dangerous y'all. Dangerous that a bunch of retards with badges will open up on it with .223 and 9mm.

dirtbag

climber
Feb 29, 2016 - 10:11am PT
Escopeta you write some really weird sh#t.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 29, 2016 - 10:27am PT
Maybe we will get body camera footage of the Bundy cattle round up.

Or even a live feed on pay-per-view
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Feb 29, 2016 - 12:21pm PT
30 minutes is a bit of an exaggeration there Essy. Maybe it was 48 hours?

Are you really surprised that the Finicum suicide was video taped but the Yantis incident was not? There may actually be tape of the Yantis matter, but nobody is saying.

The Yantis case is interesting, from what I have read it was a relatively minor incident that ended with someone dead. Seems that Yantis had a temper and the local cops were major a-holes. Add guns for everyone and bad things start to happen.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 29, 2016 - 12:25pm PT
Long Live Dave Ward.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Feb 29, 2016 - 02:54pm PT
"But removing Bundy's ornery, battle-tested herd -- estimated by one Nevada official to be worth up to $800,000 -- will be expensive, logistically difficult and potentially dangerous."

I would think the BLM could make millions by auctioning/selling licenses to hunt these trophy beasts.
overwatch

climber
Arizona
Feb 29, 2016 - 03:08pm PT
The cattle are more squared away than the Bundys
monolith

climber
state of being
Feb 29, 2016 - 04:36pm PT
But removing Bundy's ornery, battle-tested herd

That's what happens when you let them run ferrel for so long. Bundy didn't even take them in over the winter when foraging was toughest.

He couldn't round them up any better then the feds. He had to lure them with food into pens when he wanted to cash in.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 1, 2016 - 06:16am PT
Are you really surprised that the Finicum suicide was video taped but the Yantis incident was not? There may actually be tape of the Yantis matter, but nobody is saying.

Well, therein lies the pickle doesn't it. Nobody is saying......

So only wildlife refuge occupiers rate high enough to have their videotaped killing rushed to the media frontlines? But a rancher gunned down on a lonely highway? Meh, it can wait.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 1, 2016 - 07:34am PT
Did Yantis have a previous history of bringing hundreds of gunmen to a standoff against the BLM over a cattle roundup?
Don't think so.

Did Yantis and his armed patriots occupy a federal wildlife refuge for a month before his suicide by cop?
Don't think so.

Was there a month long media circus prior to the shooting?
Don't think so.

I'm not saying it's right to withhold anything in the Yantis case. But given the big picture environment, and the fact that there were many millions more people on BOTH sides paying attention in Oregon, it certainly shouldn't be any mystery to you why the FBI, and the state of Oregon, would rush to protect themselves in the public view.

Edit: You said it was ID Deputies that shot him. Was the FBI even involved in the Yantis case? If not, it's kind of apples to oranges then. A highly publicized federal response compared to a county response. Have you taken this up with the county sheriff in Idaho, or is it just better to moan about it here?
I don't disagree with your assessment of the Yantis affair. I know little about it. What I disagree with is your assessment of the FBI in the Finicum case. ESPECIALLY since it was an OST that shot Finicum, not the FBI.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 1, 2016 - 07:54am PT
So, what you're saying is that I'm right? OK. Nice.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 1, 2016 - 08:11am PT
No, I'm not.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 2, 2016 - 05:16am PT
Well yeah. You kind of are. Not just kind of, you basically restated exactly my point. Its OK, you're safe. I won't tell anyone you agreed with me.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Mar 2, 2016 - 07:05am PT
How you can deduce that is beyond me.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 3, 2016 - 05:37am PT
^^^^ And that should surprise me why?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 3, 2016 - 06:03am PT
...the fact that there were many millions more people on BOTH sides...

The fact there would be two sides in the whole affair is sad beyond words and just speaks to how far the gop has moved to the fringe right after fifty years of increasingly shrill and extreme rhetoric.

P.S. LF clearly went for a piece and made his own choice. That he did reach for a piece is why the video was released so soon to try and quell the 'assassination' hysteria that was sure to follow. That you would buy into any of it from start to finish speaks volumes.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 3, 2016 - 06:16am PT
He's from Idaho. It's in the water or something....

Can you say rokjox?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 3, 2016 - 06:17am PT
I see you agree as well. Bravo.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 3, 2016 - 07:08am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Mar 3, 2016 - 10:15am PT
Nice dunce hat 'Scopeta. Must suck wearing that around the campfire.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Mar 3, 2016 - 10:35am PT
There needs to be a SuperTopo corollary to Godwin's law. Something along the lines that if a thread goes on long enough, it will be the GOP's fault.

Some of you really need to take your power back.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 3, 2016 - 12:30pm PT
Um...Partisan blaming usually happens on page 1. Lurk more maybe?
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 3, 2016 - 12:35pm PT
Escopeta! Thanks for reminding us that it's the GOP's fault.

Speaking of the Utah GOP & you land grabbers, I just found this quote in a hunting/fishing blog that rips on the Outdoor Industry for not stepping up and opposing you folks trying to grab OUR public lands.

This year the Outdoor Retailer, title sponsored in the past by the Outdoor Industry Association, will again host their major events in Salt Lake City, UT, the epicenter of the land grab movement. Right now in Utah, there are no less than five active pro-transfer bills in various stages of the legislative process. The American’s Land Council calls Utah home. Last week the Utah Supreme Court closed public access to 2,700 miles of rivers and streams. Yet OR and their sponsors choose to stay in Utah, sending a clear message, and through their indifference, enabling pro-transfer politicians. Cursory views of their website and various social media platforms turn up next to nothing on public lands transfer issues. How can that possibly be?

http://hunterconservationist.com/2016/03/01/step_up/g
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 3, 2016 - 03:33pm PT
CONCORD, N.H. (AP) - Federal authorities on Thursday arrested a New Hampshire man for his role in a standoff by Nevada ranchers opposed to federal control of public lands.

Gerald DeLemus, of Rochester, was named in an indictment in Nevada as a "mid-level leader" and organizer of a conspiracy to recruit, organize, train and provide support to armed men and other followers of rancher Cliven Bundy.

DeLemus, a U.S. Marine Corps veteran and tea party activist, last year signed on as a member of presidential candidate Donald Trump's New Hampshire veterans coalition. A July news release posted on Trump's website listed DeLemus as a co-chair.

Bundy was arrested last month on charges stemming from a 2014 armed standoff with federal officials in Nevada who were rounding up Bundy's cattle over unpaid grazing fees.

DeLemus, 61, was arrested Thursday and was due to appear federal court in Concord later in the day. Calls to DeLemus' court-appointed attorney and his wife, Republican state Rep. Susan DeLemus, were not immediately returned.

Federal prosecutors asked a judge to keep DeLemus locked up pending his trial, saying his participation in the Bundy standoff showed his "desire and willingness" to kill police officers.

"DeLemus used guns and threats of violence to intimidate and interfere with federal law enforcement officers," Assistant U.S. Attorney Mark Zuckerman wrote.

The indictment also names Bundy and at least four others; parts of it are redacted. It says DeLemus "organized and led armed patrols and security checkpoints."

From April 12 to at least the end of May 2014, DeLemus and others set up the checkpoints and patrols to "prevent and deter law enforcement actions against the conspirators, including recovering the extorted cattle," according to the indictment.

The charges include conspiracy to commit an offense against the United States; threatening a federal law enforcement officer; obstruction of justice; attempting to impede or injure a federal law enforcement officer; and several firearms charges.

Last year, DeLemus proposed a "Draw Muhammad" art contest of the prophet weeks after two gunmen were killed and a security guard injured outside of a similar contest in Garland, Texas. The contests were planned after a gunman killed 12 people at the Paris magazine Charlie Hebdo for publishing satirical pictures of Muhammad.

DeLemus also traveled to Oregon this year during a similar standoff at a national wildlife refuge.

"I love the Bundys," DeLemus said last month. "But they made a tactical mistake going out to that refuge. They were portrayed as armed anti-government protesters taking over government buildings. There was a lot of fear."

At the time of his arrest, DeLemus was running for Strafford County sheriff.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Mar 9, 2016 - 12:33pm PT
Yeehadists unite to support Cloven Hoof Bundy

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Apr 24, 2017 - 11:02am PT
Guilty verdicts in the Nevada/BLM skirmish

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2017/04/verdict_reached_in_bundy_ranch.html
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 31, 2017 - 06:17pm PT
Big news today on the Bundy Ranch revolt. The first of hopefully more right-wing cowboy revolutionaries, gets sentenced to Federal prison.


A conservative activist was sentenced to more than seven years in prison on Wednesday for his role in an armed standoff with federal agents in Nevada in 2014 over the use of government land by ranchers and grazing fees.

Gerald DeLemus was sentenced in Las Vegas district court to 87 months in prison after pleading guilty last August to participating in a criminal conspiracy when he traveled from New Hampshire to join hundreds of armed protesters in Nevada supporting rancher Cliven Bundy.

Bundy was in a dispute at the time with the federal government after federal agents seized cattle at his ranch over unpaid grazing fees. The standoff became a flashpoint for federal public lands issues in the West.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-nevada-bundy-delemus-idUSKBN18R398
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 31, 2017 - 06:36pm PT
Like the local sheriff said..." We always catch the stupid ones "...
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
May 31, 2017 - 07:49pm PT

"In court on Wednesday, DeLemus tearfully recounted his reasons for arming himself and heading to Nevada, saying that Cliven Bundy had told him that the Bureau of Land Management had snipers focused on his family ranch and he wanted to protect the Bundy children and grandchildren.

I hope a lot more of those bozos will be tearful when they report to prison. . .
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 31, 2017 - 10:38pm PT
I hope that more convictions will follow.

I hope some of them will be named Bundy.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
May 31, 2017 - 10:48pm PT
*
*
I hope that more convictions will follow.

I hope some of them will be named Bundy.

+1
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jul 20, 2017 - 11:28am PT
Roger Stone is asking Trump to pardon the Bundys

https://www.eenews.net/greenwire/2017/07/17/stories/1060057484

[Click to View YouTube Video]

He is so up to speed on the facts that he renamed Pete Santilli "Pisstilli", yee haw!!!!
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 20, 2017 - 11:36am PT
White trash...any dumpsters needing filling?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 20, 2017 - 11:58am PT
“Every society has the criminals it deserves.” -- Emma Goldman
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jul 20, 2017 - 12:15pm PT
What's with the Howdy Doody outfit?

"Infowars, your source for the barefisted truth."

Bah ha ha Hahahahahaaa!
jonnyrig

climber
Jul 20, 2017 - 03:44pm PT
It's pronounced NeVAduh,
NOT Ne-vah-duh. Schmuck.
Sooo wrong, in sooo many ways.
Worst part is, did you see all those people cheering him on? Hell, he got a standing ovation.
F*#king seriously?!
Yeah, 9-11 was a false flag operation and Sandy Hook never really happened either, right?
I'm soooo f*#king fed up with stupid.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 20, 2017 - 03:49pm PT
I'm there with you jonnyrig....seems Werner was right about Americans all along.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jul 20, 2017 - 07:08pm PT
That crowd Stone spoke to was a group of Bundy supporters, they are a special brand of stupid
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jul 20, 2017 - 07:45pm PT
White trash day at the beach

[Click to View YouTube Video]
c wilmot

climber
Jul 26, 2017 - 12:39pm PT
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-nevada-bundy-20170726-story.html


A supporter of the bundy's just got a 68 year sentence. I don't support their actions but 68 years ? For making idle threats and walking around armed? That's clearly a message to the US people to NEVER speak out against the US government...ever

What's really insane though is we arm terrorists in places like Syria to overthrow their legitimate government

And everyone supports it with taxes. If you don't pay your taxes to fund such chaos and death you will be jailed

Do as we say not as we do...

Oh- and keep in mind we sentenced an actual terrorist who killed a US soldier in Afghanistan to 8 years. He has since returned to Canada where he was awarded 10 million dollars and apologized to...

Our "justice" system is a joke

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 26, 2017 - 12:47pm PT
^^^^ Boy, howdy! The wife was just on a jury that convicted some gang banger of beating his 'girl friend' within an inch of her life (she was in ICU for WEEKS!) and he will probably get only 3 years. I know, he had a rough childhood.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jul 26, 2017 - 01:26pm PT
Talk about self-entitled snowflakes. Burleson wanted leniency because he was an alcoholic.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jul 26, 2017 - 01:40pm PT
From the Las Vegas Review Journal:
https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/bundy-blm/bundy-supporter-burleson-sentenced-to-68-years-in-prison/

Gregory Burleson, a member of Arizona militia groups who participated in the 2014 armed standoff in Bunkerville, was sentenced Wednesday to more than 68 years in federal prison.

During the standoff, which resulted in federal agents deserting an operation to round up rancher Cliven Bundy’s cattle, Burleson was photographed with a long gun, moving around the sandy wash where Bureau of Land Management agents were headquartered.

After the standoff, he posted incendiary, anti-government messages on Facebook. “I was hell bent on killing federal agents that had turned their back on we the people,” he told an undercover FBI agent who posed as a documentary filmmaker in order to interview him.

I don't have a problem with his sentence.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 26, 2017 - 01:45pm PT
I don't have a problem with his sentence.

Did he harm another human being? No.
Did he even assault a federal officer? No.
Did he talk sh!t on the internet? Yes.

I guess we should all be rounded up.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Jul 26, 2017 - 02:10pm PT
I totally think these guys should be punished, we can't have armed militias stalking federal agents. But 68 years is way out of line unless we are missing something major.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 26, 2017 - 02:15pm PT
“I was hell bent on killing federal agents..."

Yeah, that will get you more than a deuce in the slam every time.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jul 26, 2017 - 02:18pm PT
I guess we should all be rounded up.

Don't know about you but I have never brandished a weapon or threatened anyone.

and then there is this...

Burleson was given two drinks before his undercover interview, and he told the judge several times Wednesday that he has a drinking problem. His health has deteriorated since the standoff in April 2014 — he now is blind, suffers from seizures, and requires the use of a wheelchair.
^ from the Las Vegas Review Journal

Those 3 ailments are easy to fake. Classic 'tough' guy. He is just stressed that he actually ruined his life and will be booze-less till his final breaths.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 26, 2017 - 02:36pm PT
I have never brandished a weapon or threatened anyone

"Brandishing a weapon" and threatening non-specific people on the intardnet
is worth 68 years? You must be in favor of hanging and the guillotine.
I'm gonna go brandish my weapon now. Oops, I forgot this is a family forum.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jul 26, 2017 - 02:46pm PT
Nope, not that either. How did you infer capital punishment from my post? I forgot to add that I think 68 is a too stiff but...

Look up the definition of brandish.

10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 26, 2017 - 02:49pm PT
Oh- and keep in mind we sentenced an actual terrorist who killed a US soldier in Afghanistan

it's called war. He shouldn't have been sentenced to any time.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 26, 2017 - 02:51pm PT
Did he harm another human being? No.
Did he even assault a federal officer? No.
Did he talk sh!t on the internet? Yes.

Yeah, but he is guilty of being ignorant. That's worth at least twenty years
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 26, 2017 - 02:59pm PT
Look up the definition of brandish

IF there is a federal law prohibiting 'brandishing a weapon' I
seriously doubt the penalty is as long as the pathetic three years the gang
banger who nearly killed the woman in my wife's trial is going to get.

But, hey, at least he didn't threaten her on the internet.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jul 26, 2017 - 03:02pm PT
^^yeah, I said too stiff.

But emotion should not factor into a prison sentence

Nope and neither should $$ but they both do.

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jul 26, 2017 - 03:09pm PT
Reilly, we all have cute anecdotes about the law. A friend of a friend . . . . blah blah blah. however that is not how the law works.

The 68 years might be excessive, on the other hand Burleson is a vile dangerous person who needs to be locked up. The group of them assaulted Federal officers. They have no respect for the law and Burleson expressed a desire to kill them. Now he can sober up, let this be a lesson to the next participants in the on going range war.

Blacks Law Dictionary

Black's Law dictionary defines criminal and tortious assault as "the threat or use of force on another that causes that person to have a reasonable apprehension of imminent harmful or offensive contact; the act of putting another person in reasonable fear or apprehension of an immediate battery by means of an act
Mr. Rogers

climber
The Land of Make-Believe
Jul 26, 2017 - 03:18pm PT
Mandatory minimum for his crimes was 57 years.

If I had to bet, I'd guess there's a law out there with the name of a dead cop/fed that imposes serious penalties on threatening feds and pointing guns at them.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jul 26, 2017 - 03:24pm PT
Pretty sure we will see a constitutional attack on the sentence. He was sentenced under Federal guidelines, which have generally been upheld. It is a complicated, rigid very objective means of sentencing. Now that white folks are getting screwed maybe they will take a look at it.
jonnyrig

climber
Jul 26, 2017 - 03:37pm PT
so, ah, how's all this compare to standing rock for y'all?
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 26, 2017 - 03:50pm PT
That Eric Parker clown should get the same. Bundy's little crime family, same. The drunk hillbilly with the 68yr sentence will probably be out in 10. They released OJ, ffs.

Not a criminal defense lawyer (just a humble intellectual property guy), but my recollection is that federal parole is very un-generous, and not comparable to most state's systems.
OJ was sentenced in Nevada, not the federal system.

Unless I'm missing something, Burleson's sentence will be a life sentence. That seems excessive to me, but my post is just to point out that it will in fact be a life sentence: he's not getting out in 10 and he's not getting out alive.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jul 26, 2017 - 05:22pm PT
No parole in Federal criminal cases

Under the Sentencing Reform Act of 1984, Congress eliminated parole for federal defendants convicted of crimes committed after November 1, 1987. But while federal prisoners can no longer look forward to parole release, they may nevertheless earn reduced terms for good behavior. And, even though federal parole has been all but eliminated, at the time of sentencing, judges can add a period of “supervised release” to be served at the end of a defendant’s prison sentence.

Congress eliminated parole in part because of a fear of unpredictable outcomes. A prisoner given a 20-year sentence could sometimes be released on parole after only a few short years. Even though the parole board had to consider each prisoner’s likelihood of committing another crime, Congress was concerned about the release of potentially dangerous convicts who hadn’t spent enough time behind bars.
Time off for Good Behavior

Even though federal prisoners sentenced in recent history can’t get parole, they may still earn early release for “exemplary” behavior. For example, progress toward a high-school diploma or the equivalent may shave time off a sentence. Prisoners serving sentences of more than a year but less than life can earn up to 54 days per year off their sentences for good behavior. (18 U.S.C. § 3624(b).)
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jul 26, 2017 - 06:51pm PT
Maybe President Trump can pardon Mr. Burleson, if President Trump makes it to the end of his current term, & of course he can also pardon himself, his children, their spouses, his cabinet, & everyone that helped the Russians to elect him.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 26, 2017 - 09:08pm PT
Can't he just be deported to Guatemala?

I don 't want my tax dollars going to keep this trash bag alive.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Jul 26, 2017 - 10:11pm PT
^^^
Don't worry zzzBr-eye.

Your TG crew got layed-off today.

More tax dollars for you.

God knows you deserve it
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jul 26, 2017 - 10:43pm PT
Mandatory minimum for his crimes was 57 years.

That's about what he'll serve with good behavior. (85%)

No parole in the federal system since the Reagan administration, so a jailbreak is the other way out.

Or the Trumpster could pardon him, but he's no Scooter Libby.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 27, 2017 - 05:37am PT
Your TG crew got layed-off today.

Of course, you'll be down at the recruiter's office today to replace one of them?
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 27, 2017 - 06:55am PT

God knows you deserve it

God knows all I am told. You don't. I have no TG crew, nor any crew for that matter.

Time for you to crawl back in your cave. Do you even have a job?


ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Jul 27, 2017 - 11:20am PT
Well, I just read an article about Mr. 68 years and apparently they had guns trained on agents who were forced to take shelter in a wash. That's a little more than posting rants on the internet. You reap what you sow...
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 27, 2017 - 11:37am PT
Pure sedition...bitd they knew how to treat that.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jul 27, 2017 - 11:51am PT
You reap what you sow...

End of story; however, it is just the beginning for the victim-minded folks.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jul 27, 2017 - 12:04pm PT
Correction - it is not 68 years, it is 68 years and 3 months. Lets keep the news accurate

Trump pardon coming up, Roger Stone is working it

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=818568901638753&id=100004569528547&pnref=story
c wilmot

climber
Jul 27, 2017 - 01:29pm PT
Don't be surprised when these tactics are used against other protestors. This ruling establishes a precedent where anyone perceived to be "intimidating" a federal officer can be jailed for life. Anyone who protested the Dakota pipeline should be very concerned. If the goverment wants to- they could improson hundreds if not thousands for life...and you don't even have to hurt anyone...


"Even though a shot was not fired, the injuries were very real."

 Chief U.S. District Judge Gloria Navarro

You don't have to assault anyone to be charged with assault so long as a government officer "feels" assaulted..

This is a direct threat to the freedoms Americans are supposed to have
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 27, 2017 - 01:39pm PT
Wow, an armed takeover of federal property is now a "protest"?

So intimidation is cool, as long as you don't actually kill anyone?

Help me understand the alt-right perspective
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jul 27, 2017 - 01:41pm PT
Gee wilmot, I never thought of that, guess I will have to stop threatening Federal officers with firearms. What kinda freedom is that?
c wilmot

climber
Jul 27, 2017 - 01:42pm PT
Is an armed takeover of private property a form of a protest?

Because I don't see how this is all that much different than what the standing rock people did.

So long as those people are charged in a similar manner I am fine with it

Though the sentence is still way to harsh

Edit- according to the judge you don't have to be armed nor do you have to physically touch a federal officer in order to be charged with assaulting one. They only have to "feel" intimidated
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jul 27, 2017 - 01:54pm PT
I don't see how this is all that much different than what the standing rock people did..

Well, you might try and be objective about it, this might involve kicking your own butt, I guess you'll know how strong you are in the end.

Really? How many guns did the protesters have at standing rock?
Norton

Social climber
Jul 27, 2017 - 01:55pm PT
Is an armed takeover of private property a form of a protest?

can't remember but I thought they took over Federal property?

did Bundy fatten this cattle on Federal property for many years and refuse to pay?

gotta read up on this stuff
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 27, 2017 - 01:56pm PT
I actually think that the sentence was too lenient. When you take over forcibly with deadly weapons the implication is that resistance will be met with deadly force.
c wilmot

climber
Jul 27, 2017 - 02:08pm PT
A female protester fired three rounds at the police line before she was arrested, the department said.

In another shooting incident, a man was taken into custody after a man was shot in the hand. That “situation involved a private individual who was run off the road by protesters,” the department said in a Facebook post.


Guns and many other weapons were at standing rock. One protestor allegedly fired shots (red fawn fallis goes on trial next month). Another protestor lost an arm in an explosion that they allegedly set off. I see the situations as very similar

And I don't support the bundys- I just feel this is an excuse by the government to crack down on people by handing out overly harsh sentences.

https://news.vice.com/story/attempted-murder-charges-dropped-against-standing-rock-protestor

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/fortune/2016/10/28/north-dakota-pipeline-protest-arrests/%3fsource=dam



Norton

Social climber
Jul 27, 2017 - 02:13pm PT
surely the Bundys and their supporters knew the Federal penalties for everything they did

come on, they were and continue to be pretty well informed and smart Americans
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jul 27, 2017 - 02:23pm PT
yer right wilmot, those damn injuns always getting a free pass. White male is the most discriminated against person in society. #MAGA

Edit- according to the judge you don't have to be armed nor do you have to physically touch a federal officer in order to be charged with assaulting one. They only have to "feel" intimidated

The judge is correct (imagine that?), read the definition of assault upthread
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 27, 2017 - 03:56pm PT
At least in this instance there was a trial unlike the many executions which occur around the country almost daily.

But Wilmot is right. I trust the intuitions of these federales and enforcers about as much as I trust the mafia, hells angels or Trump or ms-13
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Aug 22, 2017 - 09:36pm PT
https://lasvegassun.com/news/2017/aug/22/jury-refuses-to-convict-in-bundy-ranch-standoff/
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 22, 2017 - 10:54pm PT
As seen in John Day, OR...

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 23, 2017 - 09:45am PT
But Wilmot is right. I trust the intuitions of these federales and enforcers about as much as I trust the mafia, hells angels or Trump or ms-13

I suspect most black folk feel the same way every time they encounter a cop...
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Aug 24, 2017 - 09:27am PT
LAS VEGAS — The top federal prosecutor in Nevada vowed a third trial Wednesday for two men accused of armed assault on a federal officer in a 2014 standoff that stopped a cattle roundup near the ranch of states’ rights figure Cliven Bundy.

“There’s no question about us proceeding forward. Just so the record’s clear,” Acting U.S. Attorney Steven Myhre told Chief U.S. District Judge Gloria Navarro a day after a jury acquitted two defendants of all 10 charges but failed to reach verdicts on four charges against Eric Parker and two counts against Scott Drexler.

“Raising a firearm against a federal law enforcement officer, or any law enforcement officer, is a crime,” Myhre declared as he lost a bid to keep the two men in federal custody until the next trial. “That’s why we brought (Parker) to trial and … intend to try him a third time.”

Parker and Drexler were photographed during the standoff on a high Interstate 15 freeway overpass near Bunkerville pointing rifles through concrete sidewall barriers toward heavily armed federal agents in a dry riverbed below. The agents were guarding corrals of rounded-up cattle and facing flag-waving unarmed men, women and children.

Navarro ruled that Parker, 34, of Hailey, Idaho, and Drexler, 46, of Challis, Idaho, can return to their home state to await trial, which she scheduled Sept. 25. She also scheduled an Aug. 31 hearing to determine if the date will stand.

Keeping the September date for the two men would mean another delay starting the trial for Bundy, four of his sons and six other defendants who have been in federal custody since their arrests in early 2016 despite invoking their rights to a speedy trial.
http://www.columbian.com/news/2017/aug/23/prosecutor-vows-third-trial-for-two-in-bundy-case/

This fellow has been identified as Eric Parker.
chainsaw

Trad climber
CA
Aug 24, 2017 - 10:14am PT
Funny how the media twists things. Here are some facts about the Bundys and grazing on BLM. The Bundys were early settlers of Nevada when it was still Utah territory more than 100 years before Nevada became a state. They grazed that land for 150 years. Were it not for early pioneers like them, there would be no Nevada State. The disputed land in question was offered to a Chineese company by Nevada senator Reed, whos son Rory represented the foreign company. The Chinese were not able to conduct their solar cell manufacturing process in China because the Chinese government deemed it to toxic and environmentaly destructive even for China. So senator Reed offered to kick the Bundys out and let the Chinese pollute our public lands. His son Rory, a crooked Lawyer, was paid a huge sum by the Chinese to grease the deal. This is not the only "green energy" scam by senator Reed. He was instrumental in securing enormous government loans for Solyndra, a ponzi scheme that defaulted while paying its executives enormous "compensation " from US tax dollars. Reed and Rory also were instrumental in securing over $700,000,000 in government loans to a solar project near Tonopah Nevada, which has fallen into financial trouble and has been offline for almost a year due to defects in their molten salt tanks. Another Solyndra scandal in the making. In my view, the Bundys grazing use of public lands is a part of our heritage and the reason why BLM exists. Those are PUBLIC lands for our use in mining and grazing. NOT for privatization by foreign companies, which is what sell outs like Reed and Feinstein are doing. Soon, Americas public lands will be off limits to the public. Perhaps even climbing will be banned. The shutdown of the BLMs "Geocommunicator" maps program is a good example of how the BLM and the federal government are restricting public access to information to prevent us from using those lands. Feinstein claimed to be "preserving public lands for future generations " when as chairperson of the senate appropriations committees she eliminated funding for processing patents on mining claims. This is a complete violation of our right to due process and constitutional right to access and patent these lands. Meanwhile, she fast tracked approval of mining claims on those same lands to her European friends in the mining business. Those mines pay no excise tax, remove precious minerals from our nation and leave superfund sites for taxpayers to clean up. Who knows how much money she got deposited in Swiss accounts by these foreign opportunists. Feinstein is now objecting to the Federal governments efforts to examine those accounts for tax fraud and money laundering.
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Aug 24, 2017 - 10:31am PT
Chainsaw, where did you get your information?
Could you please share some links as well.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Aug 24, 2017 - 10:40am PT
slaving is pretty historic too. why did we ever quit?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 24, 2017 - 11:16am PT
Edit- according to the judge you don't have to be armed nor do you have to physically touch a federal officer in order to be charged with assaulting one. They only have to "feel" intimidated

Correct, if you are white.

That is also the country-wide accepted definition for the need for a police officer to execute an unarmed person.
-Particularly if they are black.

Haven't you been reading the news?
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Aug 24, 2017 - 11:55am PT
For those of you who don't remember the Bundy family history, here's a link to Wikpedia on the subject.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff

The Bundy grazing history is a lot shorter than Chainsaw's sources allege.

The court found that Bundy and his father actually first began grazing their cattle on the Bunkerville Allotment in 1954 and used it for several years. They paid for cattle grazing again from 1973 until 1993, when Bundy paid the last fees for his final grazing application for the period from December 1, 1992, through February 28, 1993.

On January 24, 1994, the Bureau of Land Management delivered a Proposed Decision Order to Remove and Demand for Payment to Bundy by placing it on the dashboard of Bundy's vehicle while he was in the vehicle. BLM officials allege that Bundy became agitated, descended from his truck and accused the BLM of harassing him. He then returned to his truck, threw the proposed order out of the window and drove away. One of Bundy's sons then picked up the document, tore it to pieces and threw it on the ground.

On February 17, 1994, the BLM issued a final decision canceling Bundy's range-grazing permit. Bundy subsequently informed the BLM in several administrative notices that he intended to graze cattle "pursuant to my vested grazing rights." Bundy failed to demonstrate the existence of any such special rights when given an opportunity to do so in court.

Per this Las Vegas review Journal article, Senator Reid praised Obama "locking-up" Bundy's one-time BLM grazing allotment as Gold Butte National Monument.
https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/bundy-blm/bundy-friends-family-protest-federal-monument-decision/


Obama on Thursday declared the nearly 470-square-mile Gold Butte National Monument in an area across the Virgin River from the Bundy homestead, about 80 miles northeast of Las Vegas.

The local Moapa Band of Paiute Indians, conservationists and advocates praised the Gold Butte designation, which U.S. Sen. Harry Reid, D-Nev., who is retiring after 34 years in Congress, backed. They said the area is home to threatened wildlife, such as the desert tortoise and bighorn sheep, and contains ancient rock art and artifacts, unique geologic features, rare fossils and recently discovered dinosaur tracks.
Norton

Social climber
Aug 24, 2017 - 12:34pm PT
^^^

well in that case Trump better whip up an Executive Order undoing what President Obama did

because Trump's "intuition" is always better than stupid facts and research
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Aug 24, 2017 - 04:52pm PT
Chainsaw, I did not read past your first two "facts" and I knew you were spewing tired old BS. There is no proof Bundy grazed the land that long ago. In any event this has been litigated in the courts for years and Bundy lost. Res judicata as they say. That is how the justice system works. or do you, like Bundy, not believe in our system of justice. If Clan Bundy wants us to respect the acquittals in the criminal case then they had better respect the civil judgement and pay the millions in grazing fees the courts deemed that they owe, and get their mangy cows off FEDERAL LAND
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Aug 24, 2017 - 07:17pm PT

Why does the U.S. put the worst attorneys on these cases, only to lose them.
Good god, they all should be in jail, especially those involved in
the Malhuer refuge. Sheesh!
drF

Trad climber
usa
Aug 24, 2017 - 07:34pm PT
Why does the U.S. put the worst attorneys on these cases, only to lose them. Good god, they all should be in jail, especially those involved in the Malhuer refuge. Sheesh!

Yep..that's what they(U.S.) do...pick the worst. LoL

Ewe didn't mention the Judges??

You child SteveW

Unless you were there in court and heard all of the evidence you know NOTHING!!!

Keep drooling to your MSM masters.

and ...Enjoy the hysteria
drF

Trad climber
usa
Aug 24, 2017 - 07:50pm PT
If Clan Bundy wants us to respect the acquittals in the criminal case then they had better respect the civil judgement and pay the millions in grazing fees the courts deemed that they owe, and get their mangy cows off FEDERAL LAND

Joan Beck prefers donkey diks to mangy cows.

Hey...it's a free country roight? You go boiiiee ;-)

Maybe you should just stay in 'Oceancide' Joan?

SAfer there no?

SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Aug 24, 2017 - 07:51pm PT
yeah, but I don't hide behind a false name, fman.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Aug 24, 2017 - 09:24pm PT
SteveW

Last name>

email address?

twatter account>
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Aug 24, 2017 - 10:54pm PT
That your best shot DrF? Kinda sad.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Aug 25, 2017 - 12:43am PT
Joan Beck after another tube steak dinner....so right and yet so bitter

Definitely FULL

Stay SAFE Joan
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 26, 2017 - 03:50pm PT
Damned inconvenient those mandatory sentencing guidelines when they're applied to a white man training a loaded rifle on Federal agents. Fewer complaints when the perp or victim are black.

The Federal Sentencing Guidelines were part of Clinton appeasing the Republitards so he could get any legislation through Congress. Lock 'em up and throw away the key was the general idea.

No parole for federal crimes! WTF!!! Removing the good behavior incentives.
So what incentive does someone in Federal prison have to improve themselves to get out early? Probation is still available with Federal supervision after release.

In fact the Supreme Court recognized the flaws in mandatory sentencing in United States vs. Booker in 2005: mandatory sentencing violates the 6th Amendment: the right to trial by jury. e.g. the jury couldn't lessen the sentence.
Due to Booker, guidelines are now advisory only.
And the sentences are still subject to appellate review.

The prosecutor may argue for a lesser sentence than imposed by the Judge. Looks like that didn't happen here.
The guidelines also allow for increasing a sentence for "government disruption", using weapons in committing the crime, how the weapon was used, and how much it endangered others.
Pointing a long gun at a Federal LEO with a lot of people around will be more harshly sentenced than just walking around in the bush, spouting off and pretending to be a tough guy. The judge still has a LOT of freedom in the sentencing. But No Parole is still the law.

All the gory details:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Federal_Sentencing_Guidelines
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 26, 2017 - 06:18pm PT
Wonder if DT will use his pardon power, again, for a supporter.....
couchmaster

climber
Dec 20, 2017 - 11:32am PT


Breaking news, just out: "Mistrial declared". They walked. https://www.ksl.com/?sid=46221192&nid=157&title=mistrial-declared-in-nevada-ranching-standoff-case

"LAS VEGAS (AP) — A U.S. judge in Nevada declared a mistrial Wednesday in the case against a states’ rights figure, his two sons and another man accused of leading a 2014 armed standoff with federal agents during a cattle grazing dispute. Chief U.S. District Judge Gloria Navarro in Las Vegas dismissed a jury seated last month for the long-awaited trial of Cliven Bundy, his sons Ryan and Ammon Bundy and self-styled Montana militia leader Ryan Payne...."
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 20, 2017 - 01:32pm PT
Just shows both the lack of ethics and competence by the gubmint lawyers,
mostly the former.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Dec 20, 2017 - 01:43pm PT
I have only written one thing in my life, gentlemen jurors, and I will tell you that thing right away, so there is no question: Property is robbery. And do you know what I have concluded from that? In order to abolish that species of robbery, it is necessary to universalize it. I am, you see, gentlemen, as conservative as you; and whoever would tell you the contrary, would prove by that alone that they have understood nothing of my books, and, I would say, nothing of the things of this world.
-- Cliven Bundy
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 20, 2017 - 02:30pm PT
Cliven Bundy is an idiot. No question. But I'm almost starting to like the guy. He is becoming a stalking goat for Big Brother's abuses.


If they can do it to him,....


Government snipers? Really? (like using a candle to see what's in this here gas can)
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 20, 2017 - 02:56pm PT
The local water police here have night vision gear, an MRAP, and real surplus M4's with grenade launchers (sans grenades). They literally have nothing to do but get all these free goodies.

So you can bet a real federal thug agency will treat every confrontation like it's Fallujah.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 22, 2017 - 05:08pm PT
It makes me feel good that a "mainstream" conservation organization like Backcountry Hunters & Anglers is taking a strong stand for a retrial of the Bundy thugs.

https://www.backcountryhunters.org/bha_responds_to_mistrial_declaration_in_bundy_case

Dec. 20, 2017
MISSOULA, Mont. – Backcountry Hunters & Anglers stated that “justice must be served” in the conspiracy case against scofflaw rancher Cliven Bundy, his sons and a supporter following a federal judge’s declaration of a mistrial in the case this morning.

BHA President and CEO Land Tawney issued the following statement:

“Cliven Bundy and his followers are lawbreakers who continue to disrespect our government, our public lands and waters, and the citizens who own them. Today’s decision fails to change this fact: The Bundys and their comrades employed violence and lawlessness in an effort to steal from the American people. We as a nation cannot tolerate such actions, and these individuals must face the consequences. We anticipate a new trial being pursued against the Bundys and their accomplices. Justice must be served.”

Tawney continued:

“Worth remembering at this crucial moment is that America’s public lands – including national wildlife refuges, Forest Service lands and BLM lands – belong to all of us. We, their rightful owners, must stand up on behalf of our shared heritage and the outdoor opportunities they represent. To do otherwise is to neglect our patriotic duty.”

Ammon and Ryan Bundy led a group of anti-government extremists in a 40-day occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Oregon in early 2016. BHA members traveled to the refuge to witness the occupation and speak up on behalf of public lands and public land owners.

What would Theodore Roosevelt do?
BigB

Trad climber
Red Rock
Jan 8, 2018 - 10:21am PT
Case against Bundy dismissed(gross negligence), can not be refiled
https://www.ktnv.com/news/nevada-federal-judge-dismisses-charges-against-cliven-bundy-two-sons
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 8, 2018 - 12:57pm PT
Acts of disregard by the Bundy's (or others) are no excuse for agents of the government to do the same.

Good for the judge to uphold standards of prosecutorial conduct.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jan 8, 2018 - 03:19pm PT
Good for the judge to uphold standards of prosecutorial conduct.

Yes. Back in my school days, we were taught that our system is based on the idea that it is better for a guilty man to go free, than an innocent man imprisoned.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jan 8, 2018 - 03:39pm PT
I do not have a problem with the dismissal. In a way it takes the air out of Bundy's sails with respect to the argument that the Federal government is conspiring against him.

Bundy will be waving the dismissal order as some sort of evidence that he is right, while at the same time ignoring the order to pay his grazing fees or get his mangy cows off our land.
WBraun

climber
Jan 8, 2018 - 07:38pm PT
You Americans have no respect for cows the mothers of the earth.

None.

All do you is rape them, treat em like sh!t, slaughter them and eat them.

No wonder America has so much violent karma reactions ......
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jan 8, 2018 - 07:47pm PT
Cows are not the mothers of the earth. The Three Sisters are corn, beans, and squash. Everybody knows that.
WBraun

climber
Jan 8, 2018 - 07:48pm PT
I have nothing to do with this vegan horsesh!t either .....
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 8, 2018 - 07:58pm PT
WBraun seems to have no idea what happens to the male calves born on dairy farms, or he's fine with the hypocrisy of his dairy consumption.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jan 8, 2018 - 08:29pm PT
Did he try to milk a steer...?
WBraun

climber
Jan 8, 2018 - 09:36pm PT
You're a moron monolith.

Always .....
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 18, 2018 - 09:47pm PT
Backcountry Hunters & Anglers sent out this email to members today.

Cliven Bundy regards himself as a patriot. We’re here to tell you he’s stolen from the American people. When you don’t pay your federal grazing fees, you benefit unfairly from our public lands. He’ll be in Montana this weekend to talk about “Freedom & Property”.
We’ll be there to remind those that would take our public lands into their own hands that the freedom of the 640 million acres we collectively own is for *every* red-blooded American. The many, not the few. Join us if you can

As I've mentioned, they are a mainstream conservation group that is well worth joining, since they are very effective at working with Congress & state legislators.

https://www.backcountryhunters.org/
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 18, 2018 - 09:54pm PT
Regardless of anything else - they still owe the feds a ton of money and if their cattle put a hoof over the line they're going to get f*#ked all over again. This isn't remotely over.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Mar 22, 2018 - 11:51pm PT
feral starving welfare beef bump.





this was one of three dead and rotting, meters away from communal water

mostly a malnourished lot, them.

Majid_S

Mountain climber
Karkoekstan, Former USSR
Mar 23, 2018 - 07:57am PT
Feds always win


Always
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 23, 2018 - 09:33am PT
Well the mothers of the earth are farting up a methane storm thats gonna kill us.

(well, all of us except Werner)
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 21, 2018 - 08:38pm PT
A long series of neutral articles on the whole Bundy clan:

https://longreads.com/2018/05/15/bundyville-chapter-one-a-war-in-the-desert/
zBrown

Ice climber
May 22, 2018 - 06:13pm PT
Well I read some of it.

This commentmaypomptmetofinish


Also it prompted me to see that elcap....

Is deactivated
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 10, 2018 - 04:12pm PT
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 10, 2018 - 04:29pm PT
I don’t care if you find the highest cottonwood for those a-holes...any cottonwood will do
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Dec 7, 2018 - 11:11am PT
Interesting, if he is being honest.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/salvadorhernandez/ammon-bundy-helped-bolster-the-militia-movement-now-hes
dirtbag

climber
Dec 7, 2018 - 11:30am PT
You know your president is a dipshit when Ammon Bundy seems sensible in comparison.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 7, 2018 - 11:34am PT
10b4me! Thanks for sharing that Ammon Bundy link. There was a local TV spot about him criticizing Trump for his anti-immigration policies about a week ago, but otherwise nothing in his new home state.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jan 24, 2019 - 07:53pm PT
So when is Deadbeat Bundy going to pay his grazing fees?
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