The Gun debate sandbox

Ghoulwej,

You instantly made me think of this:

http://blog.riflegear.com/archive/2007/12/26/hello-kitty-ar-15---evil-black-rifle-meets-cute-and.aspx

How does one argue with someone convinced that the routine massacre of our children is the price we must pay for our freedom to have guns, or rather to have guns that make us feel free?

Okay folks. This is your space to talk about all pro and anti gun issues.

I am not the moderator. I probably won't even show up here that often.

keep it civil, and on topic. :-)

Yet there is not more than one gun murder every ten years in Switzerland, with these weapons.

Gun crime

Further information: Gun violence and Crime in Switzerland
Police statistics for the year 2006[14] records 34 killings or attempted killings involving firearms, compared to 69 cases involving bladed weapons and 16 cases of unarmed assault. Cases of assault resulting in bodily harm numbered 89 (firearms) and 526 (bladed weapons). As of 2007, Switzerland had a population of about 7,600,000. This would put the rate of killings or attempted killings with firearms at about one for every quarter million residents yearly. This represents a decline of aggravated assaults involving firearms since the early 1990s. The majority of gun crimes involving domestic violence are perpetrated with army ordnance weapons, while the majority of gun crime outside the domestic sphere involves illegally held firearms.[15]

Jan, you're a delusional idiot. Sorry to be harsh, but in this instance it is what it is.

"It takes both the restriction of weapons and the will of the citizens to live in a cooperative and peaceful society for gun bans to work"

^^Silver's post is right on the money.

One only has to study the history of Socialist governments to see that our country is going down that road under Obama....and he is only getting started with his agenda.

I suspect that should Obama get re-elected, within his term there will likely be another civil war.....and not just because of these 2nd Amendment issues.

1: I clearly have some interest as I have commented several times already on this thread. Please read the whole thread before posting. ;-)

2: This thread was forked from another where some felt the gun debate was a bit tired and insensitive.

3: I'm not sure where you pulled your definition of trolling from but I am guessing this doesn't fit it. How does going off topic and attacking the thread author about saying he might be disinterested in his own thread sound for a definition of "trolling" though?

I have to ask the gun control crowd though: if you found yourself in that situation- would you rather there be a chance of someone else having a firearm or would you rather know, without a doubt, that no one else in the room had a gun aside from the crazy fuk shooting everyone? Think about it, because when you preach gun control, especially concealed carry, that is what you're potentially creating.

You have a super bright scientist in training who decided to use guns to kill people in a theater. Seems to me the key issue is mental health--not guns. You think this guy was not smart enough to figure out another way? Look at his apartment. The scary thing to me is that this person was very capable of bioterrorism. It's a waste of time talking about guns.

I haven't heard of any, which certainly seems to be evidence that they are not used in that manner.

how many have been used in self-defense in a gun fight?

I haven't heard of any, which certainly seems to be evidence that they are not used in that manner.

Still wondering how many of you called for the ban on fertilizer and diesel after the OKC
blast?

Like I said on the other thread we need to deal with mental health here and find ways for people to make sure people struggling with mental health do do not get guns and or have the guns they own taken away until stability is restored.

So again I ask you to consider taking a stand and being more pro active in mental health issues in your community.

and thousands of people a year die in slip and fall accidents...
Thousands die each year choking on something...
So the fact accidents happen to some people who own guns, is no surprise,it's like saying chain saw owners have accidents.

You are obviously not a chain saw user. If you were, you would know that there have been dramatic changes in the design of such saws, making them far far safer to use.

For professional users, there are now required certification training, designed to cut down on accidents.

AURORA, Colo.—The semiautomatic assault rifle used by the gunman in a mass shooting at a midnight showing of the latest Batman movie jammed during the attack, a federal law enforcement official told The Associated Press, which forced the shooter to switch to another gun with less fire power.


The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity to in order to discuss the investigation, said the disabled weapon had a high-capacity ammunition magazine. Police have said that a 100-round drum magazine was recovered at the scene and that such a device would be able to fire 50 to 60 rounds a minute.

Wow, I'm obviously not up on my chainsaw current events...
So I guess there are no more chainsaw accident now? or just among the non-professionals?

Ken, what law would you propose that is going to keep guns out of the hands of felons and nutjobs?...cuz I'm pretty sure they won't obey it anyways.
BTW, it is already a felony to sell a gun to a felon or anyone who is prohibited from possessing a gun.
Have you ever even read any of the thousands of existing gun laws?

That said we need not to lose our right to own guns we need to control who gets guns better.

Tell me how you would like me to defend myself against these individuals
a) idiot with a gun who thinks it's fun to cause mayhem
b) meth addict with knife intending to rob me
c) gang of 3 looking to subdue me and rape my wife
d) insane person shooting at me while I'm hiking through the woods

I've personally faced one of these. Can you guess which and how I responded? I don't want to hear a lie-down-and-die option. Sorry, I'm not that passive.

As was posted in another topic, we are lucky that here in this country the vast majority of those bent on harming others don't know and/or use explosives.

Federal laws provide criminal sanctions for offenses involving the manufacture and sale of explosives. Such laws include the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996, which Act was enacted in response to the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995. Federal laws also provide regulatory controls over interstate and foreign commerce in explosives. The regulatory controls are designed to assist states in regulating the manufacture, sale, transfer, and storage of explosives within their borders. The regulatory controls also require certain records to be kept with regard to transactions involving explosives and prohibit the making of false statements or false entries with regard to such transactions. The regulatory controls further require a theft of explosives to be reported to the federal government.

The Department of the Treasury is the licensing authority for explosives. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms is responsible for enforcing the regulatory provisions of the federal laws regarding explosives.

A person commits a federal criminal offense if he or she imports, manufactures, or deals in explosive materials without a license. The terms "explosive materials" include explosives, blasting agents, and detonators. Although the term "deals" is not defined in the federal statutes, a single sale of explosives is sufficient for a conviction of the offense. A person also commits a federal criminal offense if he or she withholds information or makes any false oral or written statement for the purpose of obtaining explosive materials.

A person commits a federal criminal offense if he or she engages in the knowing interstate shipment, transportation, or receipt of explosive materials without a license. A person also commits a federal criminal offense if he or she knowingly distributes explosive materials to a non-licensed person who does not reside in the same state.

A person commits a federal criminal offense if he or she receives, possesses, transports, ships, conceals, stores, sells, or disposes of stolen explosive materials in interstate or foreign commerce and knows or has reasonable cause to believe that the explosive materials were stolen.

A licensee commits a federal criminal offense if he or she willfully fails to keep appropriate records of transactions involving explosive materials. This offense is a specific intent crime. In other words, the government is required to prove that the licensee acted willfully and not just knowingly.

The Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996 makes it unlawful for any person to manufacture plastic explosives without a detection agent. The Act also makes it unlawful to import or to otherwise bring into the United States or to export from the United States any plastic explosives. The manufacture, importation, and possession of unmarked plastic explosives are considered to be federal crimes of terrorism if the offense was calculated to influence or to affect the conduct of the government by intimidation or coercion or if the offense was in retaliation against the government's conduct. Federal crimes of terrorism are investigated by the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

If a person violates any of the above federal laws, he or she may be subject to imprisonment for up to ten years, to a fine of up to $250,000, or both.

Calling the police is not an effective deterrent in most cases, as is obviously proven.

I agree, situational awareness does add some level of personal safety, and many bad things can be avoided by being aware of your surroundings. Some, however, are not. IHOP was not. Colorado was not. Victims of home invasions mostly are not avoidable. Martial arts would definitely add to your ability to protect yourself and your loved ones. Not in all cases though. You must be in contact range, which is not always possible. You must be physically capable of overcoming your attacker.

Tell me, what would YOU have done? Please don't say I shouldn't have been there. You simply cannot avoid everything.

By the way, I do think some gun control is reasonable. Background checks to prevent prohibited persons from having them is a good idea.

KenM, LOCKS were made to keep HONEST people HONEST. IF someone wants in to just about ANY building or home, they will indeed get in. Ive had freinds shoot burglars coming in through their bedroom windows.

What point did I miss regarding martial arts? What training are you referring to... guns or martial arts?

Why do you assume I follow the NRA? Do you also assume I'm conservative? do you make a lot of assumptions?

Point is, you want to restrict my rights because you're afraid of becoming the victim of a legal gun owner.

I think of guns as giving you the ability to fight back from a distance and/or against a much stronger opponent. Not necessarily up close and personal. Not appropriate for every situation.

You want the government to protect you from me.

There are published cases of individuals successfully defending themselves with firearms; but you act like those don't exist. Will you acknowledge them or are you too biased?

A study in the Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery found that the gun murder rate in the U.S. is almost 20 times higher than the next 22 richest and most populous nations combined.
Among the world’s 23 wealthiest countries, 80 percent of all gun deaths are American deaths and 87 percent of all kids killed by guns are American kids.

A study in the Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery

not my stats to spin...bluey..got anything to support your contention that many of these are 'gang related?"

REALLY? So I, as a gun owner, commit a felony by selling a gun to someone who is prohibited. And how am I to make that good faith determination?

studies are studies Norton

6) Ive been RECENTLY been threatened because of an official Border patrol hat on the dash of my vehicle given to me by a cousin.

Havent hit the crag yet. Im.scared by having a gun? So then nobody neefs martial arts just avoidance training and that guarantees nothing bad will happen... Everything is avoidable? Where did i say i want military hardware? im not a felon. The feds licenced me for hazmat and other things so i must not be a nut despite your opinion. Youve been shot at by people who knew what theyre doing why didnt you avoid it?

Your argument seems driven purely by emotion not logic and you sound incapable of self evolution. my views on gun control have evolved. Some of the things ive posted here conflict with NRA ideals but youve ignored that. What weapons do you own and why with your avoidance theory did you not avoid being shot at?

To me that's obvious. It's a mystery how anyone is able to ignore it.

Norton, for every study there is an equal and opposite one done

Ron

You just proved Norton's point. Thanks!

Yet over a million babies are murdered every year, and people call that a choice.....not for the baby.

The point is, that by definition, lawful gun owners are just that! They only use guns in self-defense, range-shooting, or hunting.

They also tend to exhibit extraordinary gun discipline, aka gun safety.

Yet, you yourself have been shot at by people who know what they were doing and paid to do so. Paid? To shoot at YOU? Just what were you doing at the time? Why is it that they would be paid to shoot at such a rational and pacifist guy like yourself?

Yet over a million babies are murdered every year, and people call that a choice.....not for the baby.

Where's the outrage over that? Shameful.

In all of these years I have never even come close to thinking a firearm was needed.

monolith -- "I guess we won't know for sure unless everyone carries a gun."

I know of at least one 20+ year veteran with the Medford Sheriff Dept who would tell you 'no'.

Ken M, they are every much a baby as you are.

Though I'm certain we haven't had the same life experiences, I'm mildly curious why you choose not to expand on yours. Maybe you're ashamed. Maybe you're still concocting a good story. Maybe the fear of reliving those experiences here is simply more than you can bear.

Ken has "many hundreds of police friends". ha.
Why don't you ask them if they carry a gun while off duty.

Why is it that the people who are posting stats in order show the huge number of gun deaths, are for the most part the same ones who say that the odds of using a gun in self defense are so minuscule?
Seems a bit contradictory.

KenM, you wrote:
Like George Zimmerman.
Like Theodore Kaczynski
Like Timothy McVey.

EXTRAORDINARY gun discipline.

By definition.

First off, jury's still out on Zimmerman, you may be right in your a*#umption, maybe not. And Teddy and Timmy were bombers if you don't remember. Unless I'm mixing up the uni-bomber and the ok city bomber guy, but I'm pretty sure those names stand out.

If you want to talk gun control, talk gun control. If you want to talk crazy sociopath control, talk crazy sociopath control. Just saying. There really isn't an argument to be made when you compare the fukin unibomber to someone that owns a firearm.

The point is, that by definition, lawful gun owners are just that! They only use guns in self-defense, range-shooting, or hunting.

They also tend to exhibit extraordinary gun discipline, aka gun safety.

What's so unreasonable about limiting the purchase of assault rifles to 1 per month?

Hundreds of these guns go into Mexico each day via straw purchases. Be a responsible owner and accept an assault rifle purchase limitation.

Ken, let me help ya out here a bit....

When a seed of grass germinates, it becomes a blade of grass. When it gets poison sprayed on it, it dies.

When a lunatic comes into a theater and shoots a grown human being in a vital area, they die.

When a doctor, in a variety of possible ways, terminates a baby, it dies.

What part of that is a mystery to you?

Ken M, amatures you say? A PD ivocled shooting a few years back involved about eight washoe county sheriffs, reno pd and NHP. The victim tried a suicide by cop deal, and 115 rounds later he had been hit three times. I know many "amatures" that shoot a thousand percent better than that.

So if that's the case, why aren't mental health programs more broadly supported by the same party that supports unfettered access to any and all types of guns?

Amateurs are not experienced with such situations, and they tend to shoot all over the place, shooting, for example, off-duty cops because they have drawn a gun......

the "same party"?? uhhmm Apogee, Obama has been fairly SILENT on any gun control issue not to mention incresing our abilities to carry in Natl parks. hrmmff hrmff..

There were 52,447 deliberate and 23,237 accidental non-fatal gunshot injuries in the United States during 2000.[4] The majority of gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides,[5] with 17,352 (55.6%) of the total 31,224 firearm-related deaths in 2007 due to suicide, while 12,632 (40.5%) were homicide deaths.[6]

80% of "our" killings were gang related

A gun is just an external extension of ones consciousness.

^^^^^^


WHY is Canada so violent?

In a theatre in suburban Colorado containing 400 or more people, that seems rather unlikely. What are the odds that not a single other person in a crowd of 400 had a gun?

Oh before I forget. Somewhere back there is a thread discussing which makers of knock-off AK47's make the best AK47's, the most accurate, and the least likely to fail/jam.

considering that probably close to 80% of "our" killings were gang related, those figure hardly represent a tally of the citizens here..I killed NO ONE,, last year.

cherry picker, i said"PROBABLY"...;-) got "link" for yours?

In the Aurora shooting and almost every other mass shooting, there are a couple of things they all had in common. The bad guy was the ONLY one with a gun

In a theatre in suburban Colorado containing 400 or more people, that seems rather unlikely. What are the odds that not a single other person in a crowd of 400 had a gun?